Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698944372010.pdf (South Africa)
EPC 26 April 2016 Page 1 of 71 TUESDAY, 26 APRIL 2016 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER ____ Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 10:02.

House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
APPROPRIATION BILL Debate on Vote No 7 - National Treasury (State Security): The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (Mr M D Mahlobo): Hon Chairperson of the session, Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and other members of the standing committee, Deputy Minister of the State Security, Comrade Ellen Molekane, hon Members of Parliament, the Director-General of the State Security Agency, the entire SSA leadership and membership, the leadership of the ANC that is here from various provinces and the leadership of our leagues, the Mahlobo and Molekane families, distinguished guests, comrades and friends and fellow South Africans.
Hon Chairperson and members, this year we are celebrating 22 years of our hard won EPC 26 April 2016 Page 2 of 71 freedom and democracy.

Our budget Vote and policy statement is being delivered to this august House just a day before His Excellency President Jacob Zuma addresses the nation to reflect on the long road we have traversed.
The ANC led government as mandated by the majority of our people since 1994, reaffirms its commitment to the attainment of a national democratic society as envisioned in the Constitution of our land, the Freedom Charter and other founding documents.

Building a truly united, nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous society is a long and arduous journey which our former President Nelson Mandela spoke of when he said: ―Yinde lendlela esiyihambayo‖ [we are on a long journey].
This society could not just emerge on the dawn of our democratic dispensation but needed to be harnessed and built consciously by all the progressive forces of fundamental change as led by the ANC.

South Africa today is better place to live in than it was before 1994.
When we pause and look back we have recorded strides, just to mention a few: Many state institutions have been transformed; instruments of accountability are in place; we have created thriving conditions for civil society; and recorded massive gains in respect of the improvement in the quality of life for our people.

However, we are the first to admit that more still needs to be done.

This year we are celebrating 40 years since the historic 16 June 1976 Soweto uprising.
Our icon, the leader of our movement, President O R EPC 26 April 2016 Page 3 of 71 Tambo, eloquently articulated the value of young people when he said, I quote, ―A country, a movement, a people, that does not value its youth, does not deserve its future‖ close quote.

Indeed the country and her people needs to deepen its value to the youth and harness its potential.
The youth in our country, like young people everywhere in the world, are searching for genuine ideals and values which they can live by and for revolutionary ways to win them.

Again this year we shall be celebrating 60 years of the historic women’s march of 09 August 1956 to the Union Buildings.

This is an important epoch and one of the most historic events in the struggle for freedom and women’s rights in South Africa.

Looking back today we can safely say in part we owe our freedom to these heroines.
But our journey is far from complete as reflected in that petition of 1956: ―We shall not rest until we have won for our children their fundamental rights of freedom, justice, and security‖.

Poverty, unemployment and inequality remain stubborn.

Over the last few months we have witnessed incidents of major concern to the life of the South African society.

We cannot claim to be truly free when insidious and blatant racism still exist in our society.
We cannot claim to be truly free when racism still rears its ugly head in our institutions of higher learning, in the media, in the private and public sectors, in the boardrooms and racist elements are becoming bold and arrogant.

As South Africans, we should refuse to be part of this barbaric, backward thinking and inhumane belief that some races are inherently superior physically, EPC 26 April 2016 Page 4 of 71 intellectually, or culturally to others and therefore have a right to dominate them.
If racism is allowed to manifest itself like in other parties here in our country, institutions and countries in the world where racists are harboured and sought refuge, it poses a security risk to our national security.

It is a stark reminder of our painful past; it creates profound racial tensions and conflict in virtually all aspects of life in a society.

Again this year we celebrate 20 of the signing into law of our Constitution.

We are a constitutional democracy and an envy of the world.
Our national democratic society is founded on the respect for the human rights, the rule of law, good governance, independent judiciary and independent media.

Many policy analysts and nongovernmental organisations have largely viewed the promotion of human rights and the promotion of national security as having inherent tensions.
Some they treat the two goals as mutually exclusive either you promote human rights at the expense of national security or you promote national security while while overlooking human rights.

Finding a balance on how to effectively address security, while respecting human rights, constitute a key challenge of our times.

The reality is that the two goals are interdependent and mutually reinforcing.
Hon Chairperson and members, as security agencies we continue to discharge our mandate as provided for in the Constitution and other laws of the land.

The global security environment has taken centre EPC 26 April 2016 Page 5 of 71 stage for most states and South Africa is not an exception.
Globally we have witnessed a number of emerging threats that have been elevated in terms of our tradecraft ranging from countering international terrorism, radicalisation and violent extremism, economic meltdown, environmental degradation, forced migration, food security, unconstitutional regime change, colour revolution, nonstate actors in drug trafficking, proliferation of arms and ammunition, money laundering, financial crime and illicit economy.
Despite the deterioration of global security today, we have concluded as the security agencies of this country, that we remain relatively stable as a country and a region.

However, we remain vigilant because our national security threats do not play themselves in a vacuum but come into a sharper focus within our own specific context.

In our own backyard for overtime now we have increased political contestation, governance challenges, and challenges of low growth scenario for our country and the world.
Globally we face challenges such as the geopolitics of the world wherein unilateralism, regime change, marginalisation of youth and minorities, political and religious dynamics, the failure to resolve conflicts and market capitalism has lost its glowing spark.

We are hard at work looking at the current security threats that require our deep understanding of the actors and the tactics they use using our own intelligence capability.
South Africa, therefore cannot take lightly any manifestations in our society and body politic that have the potential to advocate for unconstitutional change of government.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 6 of 71 State and nonstate actors are hard at work in certain parts of our globe using various role players to promote their agenda whilst undermining national security of various countries.
These actors are found in mass media, in nongovernmental organisations and community based organisations, foreign multinational companies, funders of opposition parties, religious and student organisations, prominent and influential persons and running covert intelligence networks aimed to destabilise other countries that do not share a similar view.
Attempts have been made in various countries like Libya, Syria to mention a few, where a question of legitimacy and the very legality of these governments were raised to disrupt their stability.

This has resulted in untold sufferings for many.

Some of these foreign agencies are even here at home working hard to destabilise us working with domestic forces that are wittingly and unwittingly collaborating.
As a maturing constitutional democracy, we must be in a position to deal decisively with whatever challenges we face in our governance framework, whether it be economic, social or political issues.

We must never yield to some domestic and international forces as South Africans that might harbour intentions of creating conditions conducive to unconstitutional change of government.

South Africa remains a sovereign state and we command our territorial integrity.
With regard to border management, our challenge about securing our borders remains because of the vastness of our land, the airspace EPC 26 April 2016 Page 7 of 71 and the maritime.

Furthermore, because of the challenges we experience of corrupt officials, physical infrastructure weaknesses, inadequacy of our systems and poor co-ordination.

Our work continues with respect the establishment of a Border Management Agency.
We have recorded strides working together as security agencies where a number of operations where arms, money and drugs have been confiscated in many of our borders.

Access to resources is likely to continue the economic conflicts if they are not skilfully managed will cause a problem.

We identified global illicit financial flows as a major security concern that knows no borders.
South Africa is estimated to be losing over R80 billion per annum through illicit financial outflows while our continent is losing more than US $80 billion per annum.

These are the figures that were accepted by the heads of states in the summit in Addis Ababa.

This is approximately double the official development assistance that Africa receives.

Indeed, the estimate may be well short of reality as accurate data does not exist for all transactions and for all African countries in terms of the capability.
This phenomenon of illicit flows robs our continent of its potential of meeting the developmental goals whilst other countries whose laws have provided safe havens for these people who are hiding these monies.

As a continent under the guidance of the AU and regional bodies our intelligence agencies are hard at work and we are EPC 26 April 2016 Page 8 of 71 following those individuals.

We are working, including improving our technology within the structures of the African Union Peace and Security Council.
We have registered progress even here at home in dealing with the question of illicit tobacco, working with the regional structures that we have dealt with these issues.

Those who continue to do illicit trade of tobacco, our multi-agency task teams will be following them and we are monitoring and we will be able to strengthen our relations with the SA Revenue Service so that that capability is there to deal with our issues.
We committed to create an economic intelligence capability and we are investing in that particular capability to respond and provide our government with the necessary support in its endeavours to grow the economy and enhance foreign direct investment.

Chairperson and members, we committed ourselves in the NDP around cyber security so as to create a secure dependable and reliable cyber environment.
Our latest information on cyber attacks indicate that most attacks are no longer perpetrated by cyber geeks sitting behind computers, but rather by automated programmes which run constantly with the aim of exploiting opportunities in people, governments, businesses and societies and alike.
Following our first Cybersecurity Conference last year, which was attended by a number of stakeholders outside government, we have agreed on areas of co- operation and a plan of action has been developed in areas of co- operation like the development of policies; information sharing; EPC 26 April 2016 Page 9 of 71 research and development; building capacity for young cyber experts and more importantly, civic education and awareness.
With are losing a number of billions rands annually due to cybercrimes and we have decided to establish closer working relations with the South African Banking Risk Information Centre so that we can deal with the questions about the monies that we lose through our banking system.

We our Critical Information Infrastructure Policy in place, we have our Government Computer Security Incidence Response Team already in place.
In march this year, we had to deal with serious threat of hacktivist that wanted to put down government and through putting the necessary systems and our banks were warned and we were able to deal with that particular question.

Already the Cyber Bill and Related matters Bill has gone through cabinet.

We are receiving public comments and very soon our committee working with Parliament will start the process to deal with these issues.
We will continue working closely with BRICS member states and within the UN family.

Securing our cyberspace will ensure conditions for peace, security and development are enhanced.

Chairperson and members, confronting and rooting out corruption remains a central feature of this ANC-led administration, especially corruption has a negative impact on our economy and it has a potential to erode the authority of the state.
Corruption poses a EPC 26 April 2016 Page 10 of 71 serious and direct threat to our reconstruction and development initiatives, good governance, service delivery, and ultimately stability, particularly at local level.

We will continue focusing on corruption within the public service and private sector and we have done a lot of work.

As noted, the Asset Forfeiture Unit obtained 483 forfeiture orders to the value of R372 million.
More than R356 million has been recovered and we are also going to prioritise government institutions to ensure that our corruption strategies are implemented.
We are on course in implementing our policy as agreed on vetting for all senior managers in the public service, supply chain management teams, officials working on critical infrastructure whilst extending the process to state-owned companies; rotation of staff especially in the security cluster; investigate the possibility of a single vetting agency and conducting lifestyle audits.

People must be able to explain how they moved from rags to riches.
We will also push for innovative ways of improving the integrity of civil servants of key service delivery points and going after those who run away from being vetted.

Because even some members here there is one person who decided to ran away from our committee not to attend vetting and we must run after them, what are you hiding?
Our constitution in terms of section 17 of Chapter Two on the Bill of Rights makes a provision: ―Everyone has the right, peacefully and unarmed, to assemble, to demonstrate, to picket and to present EPC 26 April 2016 Page 11 of 71 petitions‖.
Many South Africans continue to enjoy these rights but there are those within various sectors like education, public transport, labour, civil society and political organisations that continue to undermine these rights by engaging in wanton destruction of property, incitement of violence, defacing of statutes, land invasion, intimidation and loss of life.
Some of these protesters are undermining the authority of the state by engaging in acts that seek to provoke the law enforcement agencies hence some people have acted with impunity by killing members of our security agencies.

Unfortunately, we cannot agree to that.

As South Africans, we should refuse to be part of this barbaric, backward thinking of some elements within our body politics and society by undermining other people’s rights and freedoms.
Those of us who are seating here today, believe in our democracy and claim to be defenders of the Constitution, your silence is deafening.

We cannot continue to remain silent when section 16 of Constitution on the Bill of Rights is violated.

As a reminder, what does it say?


It makes a provision for the freedom of expression, which includes: (a) Freedom of the press and other media; (b) Freedom to receive or impart information or ideas; (c) Freedom of artistic creativity; and (d) Academic freedom and freedom of scientific research.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 12 of 71 However, this right has limitations and the limitation clause is there in the Constitution.
You can read section 16(2) which states that The right in subsection (1) does not extend to: (a) Propaganda for war; (b) Incitement of imminent violence; or (c) Advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm.

[Applause.]

Inkinga uma uke wabavumela abantu, uma kunohlanya ngaphakathi ekhaya, uhlanya uma lukhuluma kufuneka ungalenzi lutho kodwa uma unika uhlanya umentshisi kuyofuneka ukuthi ulibambe ngoba luyoshisa indlu.

[Ihlombe.]
[Ihlombe.]

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The problem arises once you allow people to speak, if there’s a mad person in your household and if a mad person speaks you must not do anything but if you give him matches you must stop him because he will set the house alight.]

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

Those contravening these rights and freedom cannot be allowed to act with impunity and it’s the duty of the law enforcement agencies to ensure that we protect this country and our democracy without any fear or favour.

Terrorism remains one of the major global security challenges of our time and a serious threat to international peace and stability, EPC 26 April 2016 Page 13 of 71 affecting every country and region in the world.
Terrorism has assumed greater proportions with attacks spreading to a larger geographical area and with consistent frequency.

The attacks in Brussels, Paris, Jakarta, Mogadishu, Ouagadougou and Bamako are a testimony to the continued threat the world is facing.

No nation can act alone in dealing with this scourge.

Since the establishment of Islamic State terrorist groups have been hard at work and their methods have been changing.
Their motivations, financing and support mechanisms, methods of attack and choice of targets are changing through the use of new and sophisticated recruitment tactics and funding methods, as well as attempts at gaining and controlling these particular areas.

We therefore remain concerned about the growing number of incidents on the African continent and the humanitarian and regional security impact it has on countries, including South Africa.
We remain concerned by the growing number of South Africans who are associating themselves with these terrorist organisations.

Domestically efforts continue to be undertaken to identify South African citizens who want to join terrorist groups and to prevent an expansion in this regard.

In addition, we are working with certain communities in our land to curb radicalisation and recruitment of our young people on false and pseudo ideology.

Fighting radicalisation is a societal responsibility.
We need partnerships between civil society, private sector and communities to fight this scourge.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 14 of 71 The prosperity and advancement of our country is intrinsic and inextricable link to that of our region and continent.

The security challenges in the various regions of our continent are an indication that there are new and unconventional threats that have necessitated more collaboration within various regions and other multilateral institutions through the African Union.
We recognise the role that South Africa should play and we cannot be an island of prosperity and security in a sea of regional and continental instability.

We remain committed to continuing co-operation with our counterparts in the continent and the world to combat the scourge of terrorism and extremism on the basis of South Africa’s own terror threat perspective.
With respect to the work that our President has been leading, we know that we are in Burundi, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Lesotho, Libya, the Central African Republic and South Sudan.

Ourselves as security agencies, we continue to play our part.

Chairperson and members, in relation to the strengthening of our skills capacity and the professionalization, we have adopted that the Intelligence Academy will be the one that is leading this charge.
Lastly, in conclusion, I wish to pay tribute to the serving men and women of the civilian intelligence structures, our veterans, the past and present leadership, as well as those who are no longer with us, for the dedicated and selfless contribution to our democracy, the well-being of our nation, the stability of our region as well as that of the continent.
EPC 26 April 2016 Page 15 of 71 I would also like to take this opportunity to thank His Excellency President Zuma for his support and mentorship, the ANC leadership for the continued guidance as they are here today, and the support provided to us as a Ministry and department.
I would like to thank the members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence for your continued support, guidance and also being proactive in dealing with issues of national security, the Ministry staff and our advisors, the Director-General of the department and the leadership and all the state security structures in our country.

Lastly I wish to thank my family for the unwavering support.
I have my two daughters here and they say that this man does not want to sleep what is he up to all the time, I have Joanne and Andy here.

[Applause.]

I am heartily pleased that South Africans are responding positively to the call of making national security a societal issue.

Once again lets be part of securing our country in terms of sovereignty, territorial integrity, our people, infrastructure and national interest.

NgesiSwati siye sithi: Nawe uliphoyisa!


[In siSwati we say: You are also a policeman.]

We are charged with this enormous responsibility of ensuring South Africa is able to achieve its developmental objectives in a safe and secure environment.

In our hands as leaders in this House, we hold EPC 26 April 2016 Page 16 of 71 the dreams, hopes and aspirations of future generations of this country.

We dare not fail them!

Labo okuthiwa ngongoma uyayona, masingalahlekelwa yizwi, sibakhuze bangayiqali impi.
Impi iyabulala.

[Ihlombe.]

[As for those who don’t want peace, we shouldn’t keep quiet but we need to call them to order so that they don’t start the fights.

Fights result in deaths.

[Applause.]]

Hon Chair, I humbly submit this Budget Vote for the Department of State Security for your consideration and approval.

God bless Africa, her sons and daughters.

I thank you.

[Applause.]


Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers; hon members; members of the State Security, led by the Director-General, DG, Ambassador Kudjoe; fellow South Africans.

Tomorrow on the 27th April we will be celebrating 22 years of a stable and fledgling democracy, non-racialism and non-sexism in South Africa.
We will be celebrating 22 Years of a capable ANC-led government continuing the realisation of the noble ideals of the Freedom charter, continuing the basic principles of the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, and a budget that mirrors the implementation of yet another inclusive approach of developing and implementing policy which is unique in South Africa's political history, it is called the National Development Plan, NDP.
EPC 26 April 2016 Page 17 of 71 It is recognized that a relationship exist between security and development in that it influences a country's developmental process.

The wellbeing of South Africa and its people in its 15 years of democratic local Government is evident in our achievement.

We now have Life expectancy increasing in what was 53,4% in 2004 to 62,5% in 2015.

South Africans are living longer.


We have provided 3.7 million different housing opportunities which means that a home has been provided to about 12,5 million South Africans.

Also 95,000 households in informal settlements have been upgraded.

National Security in its broadest sense concerns state security which is security of persons, institutions, properties and national territory; not forgetting human security, social security and the environment amongst others.
This budget will allow us to embark upon nation-building.

The basis on which to build a South Africa which in turn can support the development of our continent, Africa.

Nation-building requires us to link reconstruction and development in pursuit of security for her people.

The key to this link is an infrastructural programme that will provide access to modern and effective services like electricity, water, telecommunications, transport, health, education and training for all our people.
We celebrate the ANC's achievements across the country in that over 5,8 million EPC 26 April 2016 Page 18 of 71 households have been electrified from 69,7% in 2002 to a whopping 86% in 2014, mostly benefitting from the indigent support system.

Between 2001 and 2014 access to piped water increased from 61,3% to 90%; so too the provision of free basic water.
The quality of lives have been changed where people live which is one of the core values together with freedom, social justice, prosperity and development.

Notwithstanding many challenges we still experience in South Africa, we are confident that domestic stability in South Africa can and must be realised through government's 9 point economic plan.
In this programme, we will revitalise agriculture and agro-processing to address the climate change related human security threats of drought, high food prices, heat waves, and water scarcity and sometimes floods as well as fires.
This budget which is about policy and economic choices that we support as the ANC, hon Minister and hon Deputy Minister, must do a lot to address this human threat of drought in the same manner that government has brought stability to the rhino poaching as part of environmental threat.

Economic security allows a country the freedom to follow policies to develop a nation's economy in a manner that addresses - in our instance - the economic inequalities, poverty and unemployment.
This budget whilst in real terms has a reduction in spending must EPC 26 April 2016 Page 19 of 71 prioritise economic intelligence in support of radical economic change we need in South Africa.

Many countries have opted for shock therapy, austerity, selling of state assets to the global financial crisis.

We cannot follow an approach that will weaken the state and reduce services in health, free education, and job creation.
Unlocking the potential of Small, Medium and Micro-sized Enterprises,SMMEs; cooperatives, will bring stability in townships and rural areas, This will go a long way to address the challenges experienced amongst the poor and radicalise the economy to benefit all people.

Cyber security is an important aspect of National Security and the safekeeping of a nation's constituency and resources.
As South Africa has climbed from 67th to 22nd on cybercrime we think that more education is required to make South Africans, especially the poor and vulnerable, feel more safe and secure with regard to cybercrime.

An integrated programme based on people's needs, provides peace and security for all, it builds a nation, links reconstruction and development and deepens democracy.

120 municipalities have been assisted with infrastructure planning, implementation and maintenance.
EPC 26 April 2016 Page 20 of 71 It is worth noting that in the Nelson Mandela Bay Metro systems that have been put in place to address the title deeds backlog are now showing fruits, as it is illustrated by the handing over of 97 title deeds in Motherwell (Ward 59); an additional R4.6 billion has been budgeted to speed up the provision of sustainable human settlements in the city.

Dramatic improvement in the municipality's financial situation and it now has R1, 7 billion in cash holdings in the bank.
The Municipality has the same credit rating as some others.

No other municipality in the country has a higher credit rating.

The Municipality has initiated several community campaigns to clean up the city, most notably the Love Where You Live Campaigns and these have been successful.

Minister we know that our constitution had provided us with a doctrine that promotes the creation of societal environment that is free of violence and instability, respect of the rule of law and human life.
Section 2 of the National Strategic Intelligence Act states that when you identify any threat or potential threat to the security of the Republic or its people; (ii) inform the President of any such threat; Minister, we think you should consider a meeting with party leaders to promote awareness and education on what this section means as we note of late one of the leaders swearing on a public platform to EPC 26 April 2016 Page 21 of 71 remove the commander in chief and another wanting to remove the government with the barrel of the gun.
After all minister, this needs to be investigated as it can be a threat towards the state.

After all, the state and its people must always feel safe in South Africa.

We have agreed both in our constitution and subsequent legislation that we must all contribute towards building a non-racial and a non-sexist South Africa.
When the Sparrowish and longing for the past racism reared its ugly head in South Africa, we are reminded that peace and stability requires the whole of society to participate in peaceful conflict resolution and vigilance in communities.

It is the duty of state security to safeguard the constitution, uphold the bill of rights, and provide co-operation, national prosperity and of course look at foreign threats.
This budget must take us further to realise our tremendous opportunities in which our people's lives can be secured and in so doing, continue to make South Africa a beacon of hope as well as Africa and the world.

Local government is in your hands, vote ANC.

I thank you.
I thank you.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 22 of 71 Mr H B GROENEWALD: House Chairperson, hon Members of Parliament, hon Minister, guest on the gallery, Daniel Cole said: Leadership is not domination; it is the art of persuading people to work towards a common goal.
If we look at the analysis of the judgment at the end of the Nkandla Road, it is clear that the Constitutional Court’s findings that President Jacob Zuma broke his oath of office to uphold the Constitution, because the President failed to comply with the remedial actions as specified by the Public Protector.

There is no other option, no other court of appeal; short of giving up to the rule of law and governing by might alone.
To read though the judgement, to hear in one’s mind the voice of Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng once again, is to be reminded just how sordid, awful and plain illegal, the Nkandla scandal had been all along.

Then there is the Gupta scandal where a family influence on the economy boils down to the hijacking of the state, but that is not where the saga ends.
Oak bay Resources and the withdrawal from South African Banks doing businesses with the Guptas, the allegation with regard to Nuclear power and the latest with regard to contracts need serious investigation by all the security entities in this country.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 23 of 71 All around us are people who break the law on a routine basis.
Because of the rotten relationship between the president and the corrupt Gupta family, it seems that it is a norm within the ruling party where influential members are implicated in the fraudulent tender allocations.

How many times have we seen the blue lights a brigade breaking the speed limit or Macerate’s outside the ANC events without number plates, or some unfit people being appointed as head of the National Prosecuting Authority or the Hawks?
How many times have we just shaken our heads and thought that simply cannot be.

One of the reasons so many people feel so good about this Constitutional Court ruling is that it confirms what we have known all along.

The man at the top doesn’t obey the law, and he has set the example for so many other in the ANC.

I quote the words of Alexander the Great: An army of sheep led by a lion is better than an army of lions led by a sheep.
A matter of big concern is the suspected ISIS agents visit to a Durban School on Wednesday 13 April.

The question then is whether ISIS was on a recruitment drive at the Durban School that day or not.

Parents of children at Northwood High School raised their concerns after two visitors of the school from South Arabia accompanied by a South African handing out DVD’S and pamphlets to some of the Grade 12 learners.
Parents fear that they promote EPC 26 April 2016 Page 24 of 71 extremisms and it could be a seen as an attempt to recruit members to the Islam state If one looks at the challenges on the South African borders, this incident the typical and can easily relate to our poor boarder control.

There are not enough personnel available to defend the influx of illegal immigrants to South Africa.

It is no wonder that there are rumours that extremists find a safe harbour in South Africa.
This Minister needs to seriously investigate and you need to assure our residents that this is not the case.

Firearm-related crime is increasing at an alarming rate in South Africa.

Some illegal firearms enter the South African markets as a result of smuggling activities across the borders.

South Africa loses revenue as a result of border crimes that lead to nonpayment of duties.

Border posts are understaffed and some even lack the basic facilities to undertake effective border policing.
There is a lack of communication between the agencies working in the same field resulting in the loss of valuable information on crime and crime syndicates.

Corruption is a fact that needs to be dealt with immediately.

You only have three choices in life: you give up, give in or give it all you’ve got.
Cybercrime – and the Minister also mentioned it and EPC 26 April 2016 Page 25 of 71 we are all worried about it – that it is becoming a bigger and bigger threat to the safety of all South Africans as well as government.

Vernon Fryer, Chief Technology Security Officer, at Vodacom, presented alarming statistics from the Vodacom Cyber Intelligence Centre, revealing a 150% increase in the number of distributed denial of service attacks in the past 18 months in South Africa.
The country has suffered from the most cyber-attacks in Africa during the course of last year.

Are South Africans sufficiently protected by legislation?

The African Union convention shows that South Africa is far behind as cyber security is concerned.

Government as well as the private sector must work together in this regard.

The task of maintaining the safety and security of society is critical to the success of all government programmes.
Therefore, the focus must be on matters of national interest, including terrorism, sabotage, subversion and organised crime.

How is it possible that thieves rob a SAPS crime intelligence unit in 2015 while it is supposed to be one of the most secured buildings in Cape Town?

The building houses crucial information in investigation into organised syndicates gangs and drugs.
There have been five break-ins in the past year alone from within the crime EPC 26 April 2016 Page 26 of 71 intelligence offices, which are supposed to be as secure as Parliament.

The DA would like to know whether the moral of SAPS are still high to protect South African’s intelligence with pride, or whether it is just another job that needs to be done.
The importance to fill the vacant post of the Intelligence General position cannot be over estimated and the importance of appointing the correct candidate in this position is in the interest of all South Africans.

It is crucial that the person must have no baggage and should have high morals and integrity to serve South Africa and its people on the level of intelligence.
Let us forget Cadre deploying as well as placing a candidate in this position with the necessary skills and therefore the DA proposes that a retired judge be designated to this important position.

South Africa cannot afford to postpone this ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has expired.

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Thank you, Chairperson.

In conclusion, action is the real measure of intelligence.

I thank you.

Mr N S MATIASE: Thank you very much, House Chair.


I am standing here on behalf of our member, hon N Pro Khoza.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 27 of 71 The EFF is our last hope for a safer South Africa for all, not just those who are associated with the Gupta family.

The EFF is our last hope for freedom and security, free from all forms of violence from either public or private sources.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The EFF is our last hope for a republic that has the Constitution as the supreme law, where we will respect, uphold and defend the Constitution at all times.

South Africa intelligence community seized to exist the day man of integrity who warned against state capture by the Gupta were all removed from State Security Agency.

The intelligence capacity built over years since 1996 was all destroyed only to allow for state capture and looting of state resources.
Transnational crime networks involving arms drug and human trafficking and money laundering are now operating with impunity because they know intelligence work is nonexistence.

And it is these reasons that the EFF does not support the State Security Agency Budget Vote.

Signs were there, first it was the illegal landing of the Gupta private jet at a national key point in breach of national security, Mr Zuma must not think that we have forgotten about that.
And now that it is undisputable fact that the Gupta family is responsible for appointment of Ministers, it means Mr Zuma has handed over powers assigned to him according to section 91 of the Constitution.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 28 of 71 What Mr Zuma is doing poses a serious and direct threat to good governance, service delivery and stability and it is for this reason that he saw it fit to destroy intelligence community, reduce it to incompetent people.
The so-called traditional security threats are no longer the biggest security threat to South Africa.

Our biggest security threat, threat to our Constitutional democracy and possibly damage to our record of peaceful and fair election is the ANC, Mr Zuma and the Gupta family.

While other African governments are dealing with temptations of unconstitutional regime change, our security threat is desperation by the ANC to win elections at all costs.
We have seen what they can do in Alexander, Thlokwe and Polokwane, and it is for this reason that Mr Zuma saw it fit to destroy intelligence community, reduce it to incompetent persons.

It is so bad that the state security agency sometimes rely on the EFF to learn about new developments and possibly security threats.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon Matiase will you just stop there.

Hon member, why are you rising?


Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: On a point of order, Chairperson, on the fact that the hon member is using the language that is misleading EPC 26 April 2016 Page 29 of 71 the country in that the President is destroying the intelligence community that is a lie.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is not a point of order, and there are other ANC members in the debate you can deal with the statement that the member is making – it is a matter for debate.
Continue, hon member.

Mr N S MATIASE: Thanks House Chair.

It is so bad that the state security agency sometimes rely on the EFF to learn about new developments and possibly security threats.

We were the first ones to alert the nation about the appointment of Minister by the Gupta family.

As the EFF, we do not support the state security Agency Budget Vote.

As we speak here, House Chair, the country is under the grip of the paranoia militarisation of the state and police state.
As we speak we are reminded of the early 60s when the races fascist regime of apartheid took our leaders on the long-term imprisonment on cooked up charges of treasons and the like; the more things change the more they stay the same.

The ANC is a shame and they shall soon be exposed how they have come to replace that which the ANC sought to undo.

And we say that you have got it now to correct yourself.

The revolution is coming and it is going to sweep you out of the way.

The EFF ... [Time expired.]


EPC 26 April 2016 Page 30 of 71 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!

Before I recognise the next speaker, please!

While we allow interjections, you are not allowed to drown the speaker.

It is difficult to sit here and to follow what the speaker is saying.

Otherwise, I won’t be able to make a ruling.

Order!

I didn’t ask for a reply, hon members.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: House Chair, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, hon members.
At the outset let me say that IFP supports this Budget Vote.

[Applause.]

In respect of the post for Inspector-General of Intelligence, the filling of this position has now become extremely urgent, not only is it a constitutional requirement, but also imperative for the well-functioning of this organisation and yet this vacancy has been without an incumbent for an inordinately long time.

This office has important duties which are presently being left unattended to.
We would urge the ruling party to find a people's person who is a person that the vast majority of South Africans trust to fill this post which is why a two-thirds majority is required by law for the election of the incumbent.

It goes without saying that the suitable candidate should be acceptable not only to the ruling party but to opposition parties as well, otherwise his or her appointment would be continually stifled and this important office left unable to function.
The IFP remains deeply concerned about xenophobic-related violence EPC 26 April 2016 Page 31 of 71 which has been persistently perpetrated in South Africa since 2008.

Many of our citizens in this country, especially the poverty- stricken and unemployed believe that their fate is aggravated by these illegal immigrants who they claim are stealing their jobs.
Then there are the purely criminal elements that hide behind the mask of xenophobia in order to perpetrate looting sprees on those who are legally in this country and trying to make a living.

Bringing an end to xenophobia requires a multipronged approach and state security must assist government in gathering critical information to inform this approach.
Porosity of our borders and illegal movement of people, stolen goods, narcotics, the spoils of the poaching of our wildlife, remains rampant and the department must assist our home affairs, police the defence forces in the prevention of such illegal activities.
An issue that also remains of concern to the IFP and requires a comprehensive investigation and explanation is the recent media report that a cargo plane transporting S A Reserve Bank, SARB, notes from a European country ended up landing in one of our neighbouring African countries and was found to be carrying the body of a person who to date has not been identified nor his country origin known.
In conclusion, we reiterate our support for this important Budget Vote and support for keeping South Africa, its citizens and interests safe.

Chairperson my last input on this debate, EPC 26 April 2016 Page 32 of 71 Ilizwe lakithi lisenkingeni.

Izinkampani zonogada ezikhona, ikakhulukazi ngizobhekisa kwezamatekisi, embuthweni wezokuthutha, embonini yamatekisi, lapho khona abantu bakithi belahlekelwa khona imiphefumulo yabo besematekisini ngenxa yombango wolayini bamatekisi.
Kufa abagibeli bengenacala, kufe nabanikazi bamatekisi, okuyinselelo enkulu, umbuso obhekene nayo, okufuneka uyibheke.

Uma sesisibheke ezokuphepha, kumele sikubeke phambili futhi ukuqonda ukuthi umbuso usemkhankasweni omkhulu wentuthuko ezweni okugcina leyo ntuthuko icekelwa phansi yilabo abesuke bekhalaza ngezidingo zabo, becekela phansi umsebenzi osuwenziwe umbuso.

Okokugcina, sibuka isimo la khona izwe lakhithi, usuku nosuku, sizwa kwabezindaba kushiswa izitimela.

Kwenzakalani embusweni?


Ilawo mazwi engiwashiyayo, Sihlalo.

Ngiyabonga.

[Ihlombe.]

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Our country is in trouble.

The current security companies more especially the ones that work in the taxi industry and the taxi associations which provide people with public transport in the taxi industry, where people lose their lives whilst in the taxis because of the fights over the taxi routes.
Innocent passengers die as well as the taxi owners which is a big challenge that the government is faced with and which it needs to look at.

When we look at the safety measures, we must look forward and understand that the government has a big developmental campaign in the country which ends up being destroyed by those protesting for their services and destroy what EPC 26 April 2016 Page 33 of 71 the government has built.

What is happening in government?


That is a question I’m leaving with you, Chairperson.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

Mr S C MNCWABE: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister, leadership of the department, hon members, distinguished guests, good morning.

South Africa is a sovereign state, with its own flag, natural resources, our national anthem, our Constitution, democratically elected government.
This in its own means that South African citizens must at all times feel safe and protected from any kind of invasion or terrorism.

The African continent is well known to be so rich in natural resources such as gold, platinum, coal, oil and other resources and this makes the former imperialists and our former colonisers to be after this continent at all times.
These former colonisers can employ whatever strategy to loot this continent once again, this therefore means in as much as protecting our citizens is so crucial but protecting their resources is also equally vital for our people to continue to enjoy their independence and sovereignty.

The state security department is the key in performing these duties.

Without this department it would be impossible to protect our citizens and our natural resources.
We all know that former colonisers will never let this continent to be totally free especially in their well, rich resources.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

We all well know of the economic hit men, who go around influencing our developing countries to take loans, unjustifiable loans from these western masters in order for EPC 26 April 2016 Page 34 of 71 our countries continue to be slaves to these former colonisers.
With the terrorists activities growing daily all over the world, as we saw in Germany, France, and Nigeria and in other parts of the world, we need a very well-resourced state security department with highly trained personnel to provide us with early warnings on these terrorists’ activities.

The NFP would once again applaud this department for saving the lives of a number of young South Africans who were on their way to join these terrorist organisations.
This is the kind of security we want and this is the kind of work that must be well funded.

In conclusion, the NFP will always support peace and stability in our country and it is for that reason that we support this Budget and with a hope that it will be used responsibly, in a manner that continues to protect our citizens, our sovereignty and our natural resources.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson of the session, chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, Minister of State Security, management and members of the agency, the Molekane and Mahlobo families, comrades and friends, ladies and gentlemen and fellow South Africans, today's Budget Vote debate takes place during the historic month of April, a month wherein we celebrate the 22nd anniversary of South Africa’s constitutional democracy, which was ushered in by a historic vote on 27 April 1994.
We stand on the shoulders of many of our forebears EPC 26 April 2016 Page 35 of 71 some of whom paid the ultimate price for the freedom and democracy that we enjoy today.

Our country is celebrating its 20th anniversary of the signing of our Constitution into law.

The General Intelligence Amendment Act, Act 11 of 2013, defines domestic intelligence as gathering intelligence on internal threat or potential threat to national security.
It behoves me to draw the attention of all South Africans to this definition, as we have over the past few years witnessed the steady build up towards what we see as an attempt from certain sectors in our society to change the current government in a manner that is unconstitutional.

As a part of the security cluster of the state, we have a responsibility to provide timely and dynamic intelligence to the state in a manner that seeks to advance our national interest underpinned by national security.
As we debate this important budget and policy statement, steps are afoot to implement the recommendations of the Constitutional Court judgement in respect of the President’s private home in Nkandla.

As compliance is underway with the Constitutional Court ruling, there are those who opportunistically seek to cast aspersions on the integrity of the President and the government he leads.
It is important to mention that there is a growing concern of those who want to turn the current process into a theatrical episode through EPC 26 April 2016 Page 36 of 71 political point-scoring, which is aimed at undermining the very foundation of our democratic values.

The case in point here is the attempts to use the Constitutional Court judgement as a basis to engineer an unconstitutional removal of the current government.
This fifth democratic administration is a legitimate government which came about through constitutional, this means that it has been duly elected by the majority of South Africans through the power of a ballot.

Any political party, individuals or groups of people who want a change of government have to go out there and convince the electorate about their policies, programmes, contest and win elections.

This is the only legal way that is provided for in our Constitution.
While we recognise that our Constitution provides amongst other things rights and freedom of expression and association, these rights must be exercised within the letter of the law.

Any attempt to push an agenda that seeks to undermine our territorial integrity, is therefore utterly objectionable.

It is against this bedrock that we should take note that not everyone in the world is a friend of South Africa.
The fact that we espouse a Pan-Africanist agenda which entails unity, peace, stability and development as encapsulated in the African Union Vision 2063, does not auger well with some who EPC 26 April 2016 Page 37 of 71 view it as a threat to their pursuit of looting Africa’s natural resources.
I would like to quote from a foreword by His Excellency Mr President JG Zuma in a book on Madiba’s journey entitled Portrait of a Leader where he says: It was through Mandela that the world learned the spirit of endurance, the triumph of forgiveness and the beauty of reconciliation.

Madiba’s life has been an inspiration, in South Africa and throughout the world.

It is the responsibility of everyone of us who has been touched by Madiba magic to make his dreams our reality.
In this regard we remain fully committed to upholding the vision and values of Madiba and continue to build good relations with the community of the world.

It is common knowledge that in our interconnected and globalised world cyber space is borderless.

Apart from terrorists using cyber space through which to conduct their activities, there is a continuous increase in malicious cyber activities in increasing sophistication across our national security threats.
It is worth highlighting that cyber security occupies the centre stage of our dynamic capabilities.

The need to continuously upgrade our cyber infrastructure and capacity to put us on par with the best EPC 26 April 2016 Page 38 of 71 performing security agencies in the world is informed by the imperatives of global interdependence.
Apart from ensuring the improvement of quality of our products, information and communications technology, it helps in the early detection of unscrupulous intruders and hackers that threaten the security of our infrastructure and undermine our resolve to protect our country.
Significant strides have been made through the government computer security incident response team in protecting and enhancing the security organs of state, parastatals, cyber infrastructure and networks by means of proactive services that are aimed at prevention of cyber security incidents through alerts and warnings, as well as reactive services which are aimed at providing technical assistance in the handling of incidents and mitigating the resulting damage.
This year in partnership with the private sector, we will hold the first week long cyber challenge, bringing together top performing maths, science and technology students from across the length and breadth of our country under one roof, to participate in various educational activities, presentations and competitions.

This cyber challenge will culminate in a cyber expo to be held at the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research in Pretoria.
South Africa is seen as a country that offers both legal and illegal migrants vast economic opportunities.

The past 20 years or so, South Africa has however witnessed an ongoing proliferation of foreign- EPC 26 April 2016 Page 39 of 71 owned businesses.

This has resulted in economic competition between foreign and locally-owned business, particularly in and around South Africa’s informal urban areas, which has become a key contributor to antiforeigner sentiment and attacks.
Minister Mahlobo in his speech last year said: A criminal is a criminal, irrespective of nationality, and should be made to face the full might of the law.

If indeed some foreigners are involved in crime, we cannot mete out collective punishment to all foreigners because of the criminal deeds of the bad few individuals.

We will therefore not tolerate criminality from either South Africans towards foreigners or from foreign nationals.
As the state we will continue to act against those who are illegally in the country as it is our responsibility to ensure that all of us comply with the rule of law and uphold the Constitution.

Working together within the security cluster we have recorded strides in dealing with transnational organised crime.
In this regard, the State Security Agency is actively involved in conducting joint operations with the SA Police Service, Financial Intelligence Centre and SA Revenue Service in efforts to target the so-called highflyers within the illegal drug industry.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 40 of 71 Ideological extremism remains a concern the world over.

We have seen a rise in radicalisation, including individuals who are prepared to fight on behalf of a state that is nonexistent to commit heinous acts of terror.
We must support all global initiatives that ensure and relate to fighting terrorism.

We have to continue all efforts of preventing recruitment of especially young people from our communities through social media and the internet.

Today, radicalisation and recruitment for extremist and terrorist groups do not require our children to leave the house.

It can happen in the home, at school, university or the workplace, via cyberspace without the knowledge of families and friends.
I wish to call on all parents, our teachers, our clergy and employers to pay attention to what our children and young adults are keeping themselves busy with in cyber space.

Security concerns continue to result in challenging circumstances that require of us as nation states to improve our co- operation as we cannot hope to have any measure of success if we act unilaterally.
In line with Vision 2063 of the African Union, we will continue to support a secure and peaceful Africa to ensure that guns are silenced by year 2020.

As we are all aware, the causes of conflicts in Africa are social and economic exclusion, competition over natural and mineral resources, proliferation of weapons, gender and income inequalities, discrimination on religion and ethnic grounds and the violation of presidential constitutional terms of office.
EPC 26 April 2016 Page 41 of 71 We must remind our people that international relations are based on mutual trust, respect, recognition of our humanity and solidarity.

South Africa continues to be involved in conflict resolution engagements in Africa.

The situation in the Great Lakes, the Horn of Africa and North Africa continue to pose major security concerns in our continent.

The phenomenon of terrorism remains a key security concern to all of us.
As the guarantor of the Burundi peace process, South Africa has been involved in finding a lasting solution to the impasse in Burundi following the election fall out.

The continued involvement and efforts made by South Africa in Burundi resulted in President Jacob Zuma’s appointment to lead the African Union high level delegation to Burundi on 25 to 27 February this year.
As previously stated in my budget vote of 2014, I undertook to build our human resource capacity with specific emphasis on core business, that is, security and bolstering tradecraft.

I am happy to inform this House that a lot has been achieved in this regard.

During the first quarter of 2016, we had an intake of hundreds of cadets, 60% of whom being women.

In conclusion, we want to reiterate the supremacy of our Constitution in our democracy.
We stand before this House to recommit ourselves that we shall spare neither strength nor effort EPC 26 April 2016 Page 42 of 71 in pursuit of our mandate as enshrined in the Constitution, which is to maintain national security.

The resources allocated through the budget, against depressed domestic and international economic conditions, will be effectively and efficiently used to improve the capacity of the department to respond accordingly to the changing threat picture [Time expired.]
The ANC supports this budget.

Mr D M GUMEDE: Hon Chairperson, hon members and all esteemed guests.

Good morning.

The ANC supports the budget on State Security.

Syndicates are increasingly becoming a concern in South Africa.

There are a number of reports with respect to crime syndicates that deal with drug trafficking and child abuse as well as human trafficking in South Africa and in Southern Africa.
These syndicates are mainly involved in drug and substance trafficking, human trafficking as well as illicit cigarette trade amongst others.

Trafficking in drugs is an illegal practice of procuring or trading in drug and substances used in preparation thereof for the purpose of commercial trading with the motive of making a profit for an individual or a syndicate.
As a result of drug trafficking, a number of South Africans find themselves imprisoned for long jail terms EPC 26 April 2016 Page 43 of 71 in foreign countries, mainly as drug mules a n d that is people targeted by drug syndicates to transport drugs knowingly or unknowingly from one country to another.

According to a paper of the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, authored by Sindiswa Tsotetsi, often drug mules are hoodwinked into believing that they are being offered legitimate employment.
They are then sent abroad for what drug lords call, training o r a s k t h e m to collect work related imports.

Once they are in a foreign country, they are forced to do things that they would not normally agree to, like swallowing large amounts of condoms filled with drugs.

Drug syndicates are increasingly targeting young people in South Africa to smuggle drugs and the number of young South Africans in foreign jails is increasing.
That increasing problem should be arrested before it spirals out of control, the paper adds.

But before we attempt to successfully deal with it, we should understand the factors attributed to that increase.
The NYDA paper lists the following factors that it attributes to exacerbation of the problem: relaxed visa requirements; dramatic increase of international flights; movement of large EPC 26 April 2016 Page 44 of 71 number of people legally as well as illegally across our borders; poorly monitored borders and ill equipped customs; lack of awareness and vigilance from our largely gullible communities.

Border control needs to be improved as part of the solution.
That is why the security cluster of government has proposed legislation for the formation of a Border Management Agency where one agency with all capabilities and resources, which as we speak are controlled by different departments, will be under one command and control.

There will be a single accountable authority responsible for planning, leadership, organization and control.
They will be responsible for one major priority and that is border control with its different complexities under a competent executing authority.

The country needs this agency as soon as possible to be able to arrest many problems arising from a poorly managed border.

Legislation to that effect is now at The National Economic Development and Labour Council, NEDLAC, and we urge all the stakeholders to treat that legislation with the urgency it deserves.
That would be necessary but not enough, as these crime problems involve domestic syndicates as well.

The drug lords first build trust in the vulnerable youth and now increasingly young women are being targeted and in this regard drug trafficking has an element of human trafficking EPC 26 April 2016 Page 45 of 71 because of the vulnerability of young women.

The number of human trafficking cases reported to police, suggests that this syndicate crime is on the increase as well.
Syndicates recruit children and youth using deceit or force exploiting their vulnerability.
The ANC believes that to combat syndicate crimes in particular, we need to create more awareness among our youth of this scourge, and take a number of measures like: strengthening community safety forums and forming street committees as part of community efforts against crime; encourage municipalities to enter into partnerships with business against crime and community based organizations; strengthening the enforcement of municipal by-laws on antidumping, maintenance of a healthy environment and prevention of illegal trading; embark on massive campaigns against drug and substance abuse in our communities; involve traditional leaders in crime fighting efforts in rural communities; strengthen municipal courts to service communities effectively; reduce vulnerability of our youth by engaging them in sports, cultural and community activities.
The above would be part of an improved security systems infrastructure that would assist not only overt intelligence, but make South A f ri c a n s sa f er and make them feel safer.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 46 of 71 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has expired.

Mr D M GUMEDE: My God!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you.


Adv H C SCHMIDT: Hon Chairperson, it is common cause that the Inspector General of Intelligence must bear the trust of the public and ensuring that the security services are properly monitored.

The DA therefore believes that the Inspector General, IG, should be a retired judge who by virtue of his services as judge has demonstrated independence, partiality and fairness.
The process of appointing an IG should therefore be conducted in an open and transparent process.

This is not what the ANC believes nor practices.

It unashamedly and deliberately until as recently as last month, unsuccessfully tried to manipulate the processes in The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, and Parliament by trying at least three times to ensure that the former ANC MP be appointed as Inspector General of Intelligence, IGI,.
To make matters worse this candidate was also the previous Chair of the Intelligence Committee appointed by the President on behalf of the ANC, supported by the ANC and no doubt placed there to protect the interest of the ANC.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 47 of 71 The ANC unashamedly pays lip service to the notion of accountability and openness and that those candidates who were nominated and shortlisted were interviewed behind close doors.
As the DA representatives on the JSCI, we refused to be part of those scam by not attending any of those close interviews which expectedly led to no other than the name of the ANC member being forwarded to the Parliament to be appointed by the President.

This was a preconceived plan of the in the first place.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N Y Phosa): Order, hon members!
Adv H C SCHMIDT: To be more precise, this ANC candidate was appointed in the previous parliamentary term by President Zuma as the Chairperson of JSCI.

Ultimately, the Speaker tried to apply pressure by means of a letter addressed to all parliamentarians to support their ANC candidates most likely at the insistence of President Zuma.

Despite these attempts, the ANC failed to have him appointed as it could not master the majority required in terms of the Constitution.
We are therefore repeating this process of appointing the IGI.

In this regards the CV’s of all shortlisted candidates which we did on Friday should be made public before and during the interview process.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 48 of 71 As stated in the Budget debate last year, we will not be intimidated nor cohered by the ANC in appointing an ANC hack behind close doors to the benefit of the ANC and President Zuma.
The DA will not support any ANC hack to this important position, in the appointment process, however this is not the only abysmal failure ...

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N Y Phosa): Hon members please don’t drawn the speaker.

Adv H C SCHMIDT: ... however this is not the only abysmal failure by the ANC government.
The White Paper on Intelligence which guides the department on matters relating to that intelligence dates back to 1995, one of the advent of democracy, whilst the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, which heralded the new intelligence dispensation was adopted in 1994.

Both these documents have not been subjected to revision despite numerous undertakings by the department to do so amidst changing circumstances.
The DA will not support the campaign to discredit NGO’s whose bona fide task it is to ensure that our hard fought constitutional democracy prevails, nor will we support an outdated...

[Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N Y Phosa): Hon member, your time is up.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 49 of 71 Adv H C SCHMIDT: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr C NQAKULA: Chairperson, I defer to you and the hon members of this House.
The first thing I want to do in this debate is to lift up my fist to the memory of three comrades who died during this month; who were part and parcel of those soldiers who fought for the liberation of our country to enable all of us therefore to be participants in this debate, among other things.

[Applause.]

As I do this, I want to refer to Solomon Kalushi Mahlangu who was killed in 1979.
The racist regime decided to hang him on 6 April, not because he had to be hanged but this was vengeance that the racist regime exacted not on Mahlangu per se but on those who were prosecuting the struggle for our freedom.

Of course, they took 6 April, which they referred to as Jan van Riebeeck day, to do this.

I also want to raise the name of our loveable Comrade Chris Hani who was killed by a rabid racist on 10 April 1993.

I worked with him.

He was my general-secretary and I was his deputy.


Then of course, there is Oliver Tambo, that giant of the liberation of our motherland.

When I spoke at his memorial service I said, amongst others, and I stand by what I said on that day, that the bullet that killed Comrade Chris Hani was the same bullet that put O R to death, because of the love that Comrade Tambo had for Comrade Chris.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 50 of 71 The second thing I want to do, hon members and Chairperson, is to state the obvious.
Minister, those who win wars — any kinds of wars or threats for that matter — are those who have the best intelligence services.

The other matter that should be obvious to all of us is that terrorism, the biggest threat to humanity, especially in this century and perhaps the next one, is here to stay.

No country can swear it is safe from that phenomenon.

Many are the battles that the international community will win against terrorism, but the war will be very, very long.
The greatest weapon against instability and insecurity all over the world is well-organised, appropriately equipped intelligence services that must know long before the bubble bursts that some threats are percolating within the various communities of the world and properly analyse those problems in order to allow for effective deployments to deal with such matters.
Of course some intelligence agencies lie to their governments when they want more money for personal agendas by presenting false flag operations.

Some of the agencies have even caused the downfall of their own governments by propping up opposition to the administrations when their governments realise they are being conned.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 51 of 71 South Africa fits into all the things I have said.
We are not immune to terrorism and neither are we cushioned against other circumstances that usually escalate into instability.

Many of us inside and outside of this House usually make the inappropriate assertion that our country has no enemies and should not properly equip our armed and security forces with the necessary tools to protect our people.

Terrorism, as I have already said, is a global threat to stability and we ought not to believe it will never affect us.
The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence always has the obligation to pose the following question.

Is our intelligence community properly structured for it to successfully deliver the tasks defined by its mandate?

Are those deployed in intelligence combat ready to pick up impending threats against our country?

Do they have the necessary training and equipment to defeat our enemies in every corner of the battlefield, including with respect to the cyber front?
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N Y Phosa): Order!

Mr C NQAKULA: Despite objections by some in our country, including the hon member, there is nothing wrong in seeking assistance from those who have better experience than us in the profession of intelligence gathering.

The ANC has friends across the globe who it will never forget, as Madiba would say in the pursuit of newly found EPC 26 April 2016 Page 52 of 71 friendships.
These are countries that helped us when we were prosecuting our national democratic revolution to liberate our country and install democracy for all our people to enjoy freedom from all forms of oppression and exploitation.

Therefore, when we need training in intelligence and on other fronts we shall go to the Russians ...

[Applause.]

... to the Cubans, to the Chinese and others who helped us in our struggle, and we shall not be apologetic.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

Out intelligence community must remember all the time that the remaining enemies of our people — after the fall of apartheid — feed off the scourge of joblessness, which gives birth to homelessness, starvation, illiteracy and preventable diseases.

The absence of jobs introduces tension in people’s homes.

In a number of instances, couples even separate or divorce.

Those circumstances spawn service- delivery protests.
I know that at times those legitimate expressions of dissatisfaction are exploited by forces with nefarious agendas.

The fact though is that the government should address people’s expectations before they germinate and grow into deep discontent.

It is the job of intelligence services to see problems of that nature and character long before they become what in Latin is called casus belli — the cause of war.

Hon member, I was brilliant in Latin.

I’m sure that comrade there knows nothing about Latin.
EPC 26 April 2016 Page 53 of 71 [Applause.]

He would never have known what casus belli means; not him.

Intelligence must then inform government and insist that government acts in time by providing the necessary service.

Service-delivery protests are more often than not a response to the discovery by citizens that their government does not provide services ...

[Interjections.]

Mr G DAVIS: Chairperson, can you just guide us on the length of time allocated to this member ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

... because I’ve got eight minutes and 30 seconds so far and as far as I can see he’s been allocated seven minutes.

Thank you.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N Y Phosa): Hon member, be rest assured that he is still within his time limit.

Actually you must trust me in the manner in which I’m guiding this.

Mr G DAVIS: So how much time has been allocated to the member?

[Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N Y Phosa): He’s still within his time limit.
Mr G DAVIS: How much time has been allocated?

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 54 of 71 The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N Y Phosa): Nine minutes.

Mr G DAVIS: Nine minutes?

Thank you.

Mr C NQAKULA: Hon member, I thought you would appreciate the lessons.

[Laughter.]

Citizens know that government does not provide services because the country’s material resources are diverted into the pockets of some in the state hierarchy and the Public Service.
They know why they have no access to water and why the roads in their communities are pockmarked by potholes.

They know why dumps of refuse have grown up like mushrooms where they live.

Money to deal with those problems has gone into the pockets of councillors.

Intelligence therefore has the added task, which is very important, to maintain stability to fight corruption wherever it raises its ugly head.
The Minister of intelligence must not be immobilised by friendship or deference and show reluctance to expose corruption in government and elsewhere in the line of human endeavour.

Those involved in corruption must be dealt with by law enforcement agencies without fear or favour.

[Time expired.]

[Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N Y Phosa): On a point of procedure, hon member Nqakula was allocated seven, but then through internal arrangements there was a sponsor of two additional minutes.
So continue trusting us in doing the right thing.

Thank you very much EPC 26 April 2016 Page 55 of 71 hon member Nqakula.

I will now call upon hon member D J Stubbe.

[Interjections.]

Order!

Hon members, order!

Hon members, order!

Mr D J STUBBE: Thank you Chairperson, Members of Parliament and members of the intelligence community.
Minister, soos dit nou maar gaan in ’n verkiesingsjaar, word daar meer klem gelê op die sogenaamde sukses van die regerende party, wat eintlik maar ’n stemwerwingspoging is.

Ons moet eintlik by die ware toedrag van sake kom.

Ek wil vir die agb Nqakula baie dankie sê vir wyse woorde en ’n goeie geskiedenisles.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)


[Minister, as it goes in an election year, greater emphasis is placed on the so-called success of the ruling party, which is actually just a lobbying effort.

We should actually get to the real state of affairs.

I want to say to the hon Nqakula, thank you very much for the wise words and a good history lesson.]

The political threat to South Africa is as much social, economic, political and defence related.
The threat manifests in external and internal influences and the changes derived from emerging world trends such as organised crime, human trafficking, money laundering, border security, aviation security and terrorism, as well as the impact of the current drought on the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region as a whole.

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 56 of 71 We also need to look at our neighbours in SADC.
Namibia is said to have violated UN sanctions against North Korea when the North Koreans built an ammunitions factory near the capital of Windhoek.

In Angola the secretary of the interior discussed co-operation in matters relating to the sharing of experience with North Korea but it might also be that these experiences relate to the violation of UN sanctions against North Korea.
In Mozambique the opposition party Renamo has been on the uprise since January 2016 and several incidents occurred where civilians were targeted following armed clashes between government forces and the opposition fighters of Alfonso Dhlakama.

Many Mozambicans have fled from their province to the refugee camp in neighbouring Malawi.

On our own soil challenges of an economic nature are on the upscale and include issues such as organised crime, money laundering, and border and aviation security.
The current drought is a serious threat in terms of food security.

As a result of the drought in the SADC region it is expected that we will have an increase of refugees who will look at South Africa to survive the predicted food shortage and to find jobs.

This will put our own economy under tremendous strain because we experience a similar situation in South Africa due to the severe drought.

Job creation is under severe pressure ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

... due to the ... EPC 26 April 2016 Page 57 of 71 The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N Y Phosa): Order hon members!

Mr D J STUBBE: ... closing down of various mines throughout the country as a result of the dumping of cheap steel products by our socalled partners from China.

Together with looming strikes in the labour market and the mines, our social burden will increase in the country.
The current onslaught on Metrorail in the Western Cape is nothing less than sabotage and it is these issues that need the attention of our intelligence community.

Suid-Afrika staan voor sy grootste grondwetlike krisis.

Onlangs het die Grondwetlike Hof beslis dat die President die Grondwet in sy hantering van die Openbare Beskermer se Nkandla verslag oortreë het.
Dit het gelei tot ’n poging van die DA en die opposisie partye om die President in ’n saak van beskuldiging te plaas, maar die regerende party het die Grondwet en sy plig versaak.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[South Africa is facing its biggest constitutional crisis.

Recently the Constitutional Court ruled that the President violated the Constitution in his handling of the Public Protector’s report on Nkandla.
This led to an attempt by the DA and the opposition parties to impeach the President, but the ruling party has forsaken the Constitution and its duty.]

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 58 of 71 The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms N Y Phosa): Hon members, order please.

Hon member, your time is up.

[Applause.]


Mr J J SKOSANA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of State Security, Minister Mahlobo and Deputy Minister, hon Molekane, chairperson and members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, Director-General of the State Security, Ambassador, Sonto Kudjoe and members of intelligence community, hon members, distinguished guests, fellow South Africans, I greet you all.

Let me start by saying, ANC supports Budget Vote 7.
During 1994 South African voted for the first democratic government and gave the ANC the mandate to rule this country because of their trust and believe in its policies.

It was for first time that all South Africans irrespective of race and or colour participated in the elections of their government, the government of the people.

Today all our cities enjoy the rights that are enshrined in the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.
This was not automatic but an achievement after a tireless fight against the apartheid government.

During 2014 national elections the majority of South Africans again gave the ANC a mandate to govern this country.

This is an indication that the ANC cares for the people of South Africa.

They have said nothing about you, DA and the EFF.


EPC 26 April 2016 Page 59 of 71 We are concerned about reports of sexual violence in the country and in particular the recent demonstration by the Rhodes University students against rape and sexual assaults of young women on university campuses.

I must say ... Lokuhlukunyezwa kwezingane nomama, asihambisani nakho singuKhongolose.
Kwenzekile e-Kameelrivier B, engaphansi kwe-Doctor J S Moroka Municipality ukuthi umntwana oneminyaka eyi-11 adlwengulwe ubaba oneminyaka eyi-38.

Kanti naseMbibane umntwana obefunda isikole oneminyaka eyi-18 wadlwengula emavikini amabili adlule.

Lowomntwana ugcine eseshonile kanti besimngcwaba evikini eledlule.

Kwodwa abasolwa abakabanjwa.

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[As the ANC we are against the abuse of women and children.
It happened at Kameelrivier B, under the jurisdiction of Dr J S Moroka Municipality where an 11 year old chid was raped by a 38 year old man.

Few weeks ago in Mbibane an 18 year old school learner was also raped.

That child ended up dying and we buried her last week but the perpetrators are not yet arrested.]

But what we are saying ... Sibawa ukuthi umbuso wenze ngakho koke okusemandleni bona boke abenza izenzo ezimbi njengalezi babotjhwe bayokuvalelwa ngemajele.
EPC 26 April 2016 Page 60 of 71 [We are asking the government to ensure that those who do these things, are arrested.]

Our law enforcement agencies continue to identify measures to deal with these hyenas crimes.

As part of government’s commitment to support victims of sexual violence, 33 regional courts have been upgraded into sexual offence court rooms.
Collective efforts with the Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender and Intersex groups, civil society organisation and government departments in the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster are beginning to yield positive results in this regard.

The State Security as part of the JCPS cluster prioritises its work towards the elimination of socio-economic impediments of crime and criminal activities.

These were demonstrated during the attacks on foreign national by people who do not love peace.
This operation was successful carried out by JCPS.

Operation Fiyela is a programme that could assist us to fight crime in this country if it could be done once per quarter, hon Minister.

Basic services to previously disadvantaged communities remain the core priority of government to reduce and tackle poverty.

Government continues to work hard to foster peace, stability, and security in the country.
However, the abovementioned constraints curtail the speed at which the lives of all South Africans are improved.

We have seen a substantial increase in terms of protest actions across EPC 26 April 2016 Page 61 of 71 various sectors and industries.

The South African Constitution enshrines the right of citizens to protest peacefully and unarmed.

However, when protest threatens lives and property it poses a challenge to stability and the authority of the State.
The sharp increase of violent community protests, labour unrests in the various sectors of our economy for example, mining, education, post office, waste removal, transport – taxi and rail – as well as student protest as an effort to voice concerns and complains threatens stability and the authority of the State.

Ranked by the World Bank as an upper-middle income country, South Africa is the second largest economy in Africa after Nigeria.
Despite the above the World Bank reports that while the economy continues to grow, that growth is at the lower rate than previously focused.

And this is a result of external and domestic factors.

In as much as the ANC-led government has made tremendous strides in improving the socio-economic conditions and in improving the livelihood of millions of South Africans, constraints on our economy hamper the consolidation of gains made.
Let me try to deal with some other issues raised by the opposition parties before I continue.

Hon Chairperson, with regards to the issue that was raised by the DA of the President who broke the Constitution et cetera, I must say that that is a distortion of the outcome of the Constitutional EPC 26 April 2016 Page 62 of 71 Court.

The court never said that the President has broken the Constitution.
When referring to the Constitution you are talking about the whole book – all the rules that are in the Constitutions.

The Constitutional Court spoke about the implementation of the Public Protector’s recommendations.

That is the only part of the Constitution which the Constitutional Court spoke about, not what you are telling us now.

And you are busy continuing to attack the ANC through the President.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (N Y Phosa): Order!


Mr J J SKOSANA: You are saying the President is in business with the Guptas.

And I want to make it clear.

UMengameli weNarha akakangeneli irhwebo nama-Guptas.

Ungakhamba uyokwenza irhubhululo angekhe wathola lapho kuthiwa uMengameli usebenza nama-Guptas namkha usebenza kwenye yenkhamphani zama- Guptas.

Into eniyitjela abantu benarha le kufanele bona siyilungise tjhatjhalazi ukuze boke abantu bazi bona ayikho into enjalo.
Begodu okunye okufanele bona nikwazi kukuthi, uMengameli wenarha le uyawulandela umThetho.

(Translation of isiNdebele paragraphs follows.)

EPC 26 April 2016 Page 63 of 71 [The President of the Republic is not involved in business with the Guptas.

You can go and do your research but you will not find anything that says the President has business dealings with the Guptas or that he is working in any of the Guptas’ companies.
What you are telling people of this country needs to be correct publicly so that everyone knows that there is nothing like that.

And another thing that you need to know is that the President of this country obeys the law.]

He obeys the law.

Ikulumo ethi uMengameli akawulandeli umthetho ayisilo iqiniso.

uMengameli umdosiphambili wenarha le ngoba alandela umThethosisekelo owatlolwa ngo 1996.

[The statement that the President does not obey the law is not true.
The President is the leader of this country because he obeys the Constitution that was drafted in 1996.]

You are talking about the Inspector General’s, IG, appointment.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (N Y Phosa): Order!

Mr J J SKOSANA: Why are you pre-empting the results of the appointment of the IG.

That process is within the JSCI as we are talking now.

Last Friday we were short listing candidates who must come and contest for that position.
EPC 26 April 2016 Page 64 of 71 I-DA, begade ikhona hlangana neenqhema ebegade sihlanganyele nazo lokha nasihlunga labo abalungele ukuhlahlutjelwa isikhundla [shortlisting.]

Alo njeke beza la ngaphambili ukuzositjela ukuthi bona bafuna umuntu owanelisa iimbandela yokana bona kube nguye othatha isikhundla esivulekileko somHloli-Mazombe.

(Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)


[The DA was amongst the groups that we worked with when we were shortlisting and interviewing those who qualified for the position.

Now they are coming forward to tell us that they want someone who meets all the requirements so that, that person should be the one who fills the position of the Auditor-General.]

According to me a suitable candidate is one who meets the requirements ... ...ingasi lokho abakutjhoko.

[... not what they are saying.]


Hon member of the DA, my colleague, Mr Schmidt ... ... umkhumbulo wakho wokuthi kufuneka ijaji esele lathatha umhlalaphasi bona kubengilo eliqatjhwa esikhundla somHloli-Mazombe libhudango engekhe lafezeka.

[Iwahlo.]

Ijaji lakhwelo esele lathatha umhlala phasi akhange lisifake isibawo, nangathana lenzenjalo belizakuhlungwa njengabanye nalo likwazi ukuzokuphalisana.
Begodu enye into – fakani imitato yangendlebeni nikwazi ukungizwa kuhle EPC 26 April 2016 Page 65 of 71 ngoba ngifuna ukukhuluma isiKhethu – nina nezondo u-Burgess ... (Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)

[... your thinking that says a retired judge should be the one that should be employed as the Auditor-General is a dream that will not come true.

[Applause.]

That retired judge of yours did not apply for the post.
If he or she had done so that person would have been interviewed like everyone else so that he or she could compete with others.

And another thing is – put your headphones on so that you can hear me clearly because I want to speak isiNdebele – you haters of Burgess ...] ... with passion.

Niyamzonda u-Burgess.

Thina manje sikhuluma ngokucatjhwa komHloli- Mazombe, asikhuluma ngo-Burgess.

Ngonyaka ogadungileko salenza ihlelweli, umuntu owanelisa iimbandela kwaba ngu-Burgess.
Kwathi kunjalo nagijimela ngePalamende nayokuvimba ihlelweli ngokuthi nale ukunikelana ngesekelo lesibili-esithathwini.

Namhlanje selenifuna bona kufunwe ijaji elithethe umhlalaphasi kube ngilo eliqatjhwako?

Nifuna bona nigijime godu niyokukhandela ihlelo?

Sithi kini akhese nilise ukubekela uKhongolose irherho.

Lisani ukubekela umbuso lo irherho.

Thina sazi kuhle bona umuntu ofanele ukuqatjhwa ngiloyo owanelisa yoke iimbandela, kuphelela lapho.
EPC 26 April 2016 Page 66 of 71 Ihlelo lokuqatjhwa komHloli-Mazombe lenziwa tjhatjhalazi.

Kungebangalani namhlanje nithi kumele lenziwe tjhatjhalazi?

Ngoba vele silenze labasetjhatjhalazini, iimbikindaba gade zikhona ngelesiHlanu.

(Translation of isiNdebele paragraphs follows.)

[You hate Burgess.

Right now we are talking about the employment of the Auditor-General, not about Burgess.

Last year we finalised this process, and the person who met the requirements was Burgess.
On that note, you ran to Parliament to get an interdict against the process by not providing support of the two-third majority.

Today you want a retired judge to be the one who should be employed for the position.

You want to go again to get an interdict against the process?

We are telling you to stop putting a list forward for the ANC.

Stop putting a list forward for this government.

We know very well that an ideal candidate is someone who meets all the requirements and that’s all.
The process of appointing the Auditor–General is conducted publicly.

For what reason today you’re saying it should be conducted publicly, because we conducted it publicly, the media was here on Friday.]

And we will continue in making sure that media becomes part of this.

In fact what is it that you need us to do in order for you to be satisfied about this process?

The EFF is not an organisation that can be a hope for South Africa.
It is an organisation that is EPC 26 April 2016 Page 67 of 71 destructing all the programmes of the country, all the programmes of the government.

Isitjhaba asibabone ngezinto ezibomvana; bakhona ngapho ngemphakathini.

Bazokungena hlangana nani banitjele bona balungile kanti naba la ePalamende baphikisa yoke into.

Baphikisa ibhajede, baphikisana nokuthi kuqatjhwe ijaji begodu baphikisa yoke into esivela nayo.

Kodwana bazitjela bona balithemba.


Ihlelo labo likhuluma nge-Gupta nenkandla soloko bafika ngapha ngePalamende.

Lezi-ke sesisebenzile ngazo, angazi kwanjesi ihlelo labo elinye lizokuba yini.

Khengezwa kwangathi bakhuluma ngenarha.

(Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)

[The public should identify them with red dress; they’re there in the community.

They will mix with you and tell you that they are right, but when they are here in Parliament they reject everything.
They reject the Budget, they reject that the judge must be employed and they also reject everything we come with.

But they tell themselves that they are the nation’s hope.

Their programme talks about Gupta and Nkandla since they arrived here in Parliament.

We are done with that.

I don’t know what their next programme will be.

I heard that they are talking about the land.]

The land belongs to all of us.

[Time expired.]

The ANC supports the budget.


EPC 26 April 2016 Page 68 of 71 The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (Mr M D Mahlobo): Hon Chair, hon members, firstly, on behalf of Comrade Deputy Minister, we want to acknowledge our special guests for the future pipeline of our country, the students from Moroka High School in Thaba Nchu.

[Applause.]

We have Nochochame Chibane, Sheldon Mogato and Ofenswe Sello from the University of Free State.

Thank you very much for coming here.

[Applause.]


Well, with respect to the debate we are very pleased that a number of parties are now coming to the party to understand that national security is everybody’s business.

But we must also admit that there are those amongst others who are holding onto the dear past when we discuss matters of national security.

We must be able to indicate that the responsibility to secure our country is for all of us.
And fellow South Africans we must be able to know that there are those amongst us who think that they cherish Frantz Fanon, but they come here and tell lies, claim easy victories and actually do not obscure our difficulties.

There are those who have made their mission to work with other people of the world to destabilise South Africa.

We know, as the Intelligence Services, some people who are from other political parties were caught carrying guns.
And I am on record that immediately you think that you have the right of freedom of expression – which is limited in terms of section 16(2) - you EPC 26 April 2016 Page 69 of 71 can’t have propaganda for war.

The law enforcement agencies are going to act.

We must also indicate that as South Africans we must know who we are, where we come from and what we stand for.

Not every body is our friend.

The forces that were opposed to us are hard at work.
We have seen how Russia has been pushed economically; we have seen how China is being pushed economically and we have seen how Brazil is being destabilised because of the direction we have taken.

Now there are South Africans who are collaborating with some of these foreign forces.

[Interjections.]

We know ... and they are using certain ...

[Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (N Y Phosa): Order!


The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (Mr M D Mahlobo): One important issue; our NGOs are playing an important part, but there are those among them who have made it their preoccupation to destabilise the state.

And we are not going to be shy to deal with those particular institutions.

Hon member Manier, you know that you are fortunate to sit here.

You ran away from engaging with us.


EPC 26 April 2016 Page 70 of 71 The responsibility to deal with the threats of terror ...

[Interjections.]

[Time expired.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (N Y Phosa): Hon Minister, you time is up.

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (Mr M D Mahlobo): We want to thank you very much for all your support, your Excellency.

[Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (N Y Phosa): Thank you, hon Minister, I see the hon member rising.

Hon member, may you come forth.

[Interjections.]


Okay there is no one at the podium, hon member.

Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, I am trying to check whether it is parliamentary for a Member of Parliament to bribe another Member of Parliament - and I think the Minister must do some proper investigation around this matter.

Hon Stubbe has sent me money, and in terms of the law this is money laundering.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (N Y Phosa): Okay, hon member ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Mr D J STUBBE: Chair, a cheap watch makes the loudest noise.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (N Y Phosa): Hon members, you conduct must show respect to the House, please.

Otherwise, hon members you are EPC 26 April 2016 Page 71 of 71 reminded that the debate on rural development and land reform will take place at 14:00 in the National Assembly Chamber.

The Committee rose at 11:51.