Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698942672628.pdf (South Africa)
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 1 of 239 THURSDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ The House met at 14:01.

The House Chairperson (Ms A T Didiza) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS- see col 000.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, as we do so, we need also to remember what happened in Johannesburg, yesterday, as a result of the flood, and some of the people who might have lost their lives in that incident.

Hon members, order!

We would like to welcome our guests that are here in the gallery, visiting this People’s Parliament.

You are all welcome.

I can see you are representing the various parties in the House.
And I think it is important for me to advise you 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 2 of 239 that, as our guests, while you are welcome, you are not supposed to participate in the proceedings of the House.

I know that, in the heat of the discussions, you might be tempted to clap your hands.

That is not allowed.

You might be tempted to express your dissatisfaction – perhaps by howling – but that is not allowed, either.

[Interjections.]

You might be tempted to stand up.

That is not allowed.


I hope that you will be able to co-operate with us.

If there is something you like, you can smile.

If there is something you don’t like, you can frown.

That is allowed.

Thank you very much.

NEW MEMBERS (Announcement) The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, before we proceed with today’s business, I wish to make the following announcement.
The vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the resignation of Mr Andrew Grant Whitfield has been filled by the nomination of Ms Hlomela Bucwa, with effect from 8 November 2016.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 3 of 239 The vacancies which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the resignations of Mr Bennet Mzwenqaba Bhanga and Ms Annette Theresa Lovemore have been filled by the nominations of Ms Thandeka Moloko Mbabama and Ms Chantel King, respectively, with effect from 8 November 2016.

[Applause.]

The members have taken the oath or subscribed the affirmation in the Deputy Speaker’s office.

I welcome you, hon members, as members of this House.
CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMMITTEE ON TRADE AND INDUSTRY There was no debate.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, I move: That this House adopt the Report.

Declarations of vote: Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: House Chairperson, we welcome our new members to this fabulous, winning team of the DA.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 4 of 239 I note that this report today is being debated long after the mid-term Budget was tabled in this House and so, has no prospect whatsoever of actually leading to any change in the budget.

It could not have been the intention of the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, BRRR, process that each committee must spend so much time on what is, essentially, a tick-box exercise.
Even if the Treasury had had the opportunity to read our committee’s report, it did not effect any of the recommendations we made in it.

Most significantly, we asked for additional funding for the National Credit Regulator, NCR, so that it could better protect South Africans from dangerous loan sharks that intimidate them, threaten them with violence, take their ID books and ATM cards, often actually assault and beat them, force them to perform sexual favours in lieu of payment, and worse.
Millions of South Africans live daily with stress, fear, and anxiety because of loan sharks.

Nearly every street in South Africa has illegal loan sharks on it.

Yet, the NCR has very little capacity - just eight enforcement officers for the entire country to actually find these thugs and stop them from abusing the public.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 5 of 239 We did not ask for any enormous amounts, just fractions of the R100 million that has been allocated for the President’s new, luxury, VIP jet, for example, or just a few times what the Minister has budgeted for his new luxury vehicles, for example.

[Interjections.]

That is the thing about budgets.

To allocate more to something, you must take it away from something else.
In funding the President’s jet and the Minister’s new cars over fighting illegal loan sharks, this government has shown to South Africa where its priorities lie today.

Ms N V NQWENISO: House Chairperson, if South Africa wants to learn trading, we must start with our mineral resources.

The EFF rejects the adoption of the BRRR of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, and it is for the sound arguments we have advanced since our arrival in this Parliament.
We have given a proper interpretation of the current crisis that defines South Africa and the confusion over the lack of industrial policy.

This explains the incoherent and inconsistent interpretation of radical industrialisation shown by misguided black industrialist projects.
All economic indicators are now showing that the extraordinary growth that propelled China’s economic miracles has passed 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 6 of 239 Africa - including South Africa – by, as Africa faces its most challenging economic period since the turn of the century, given the global economic instability, the collapse of commodity prices, and China’s transition to a consumer-led economy.
South Africa must ask tough question about its own industrial policies - I hope you are listening, Minister – particularly, on why South Africa has been in this state; and how what it has been doing for the last 20 years has led to failures on the industrialisation front.

Central to the question of industrial policy is the role of the state and its relation to the strategic sectors of the economy - in the case of South Africa, mining and agriculture.
Part of the answer, as a starting point, is to start looking at the broad-based economic development of workers.

This is the richest country in the world in terms of minerals.

But it has the highest levels of unemployment, poverty, and everything else that South Africa fails at, including not having education for its children.

The EFF rejects the budget.

Thank you.

[Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Esterhuizen.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 7 of 239 Ms H O HLOPE: On a point of order before the member speaks, House Chair: There is a lot of noise here.

Please tell the ANC to keep quiet.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member!

Can you please take your seat?

Hon Esterhuizen.

Order, hon members!

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Thank you, Chair.

This department achieved a financially unqualified opinion with a few minor findings.
Still, one of the concerns currently in South Africa, which directly relates to trade and industry, is unemployment.

The stark reality is that South Africa, being a resource-rich country, continues to prioritise exports ahead of social development.

This is not saying that our trade deficit is not important for growth, but so is the wellbeing of our citizens.

For example, through this department, government has spoken of creating a new class of black industrialists.
It is not entirely clear if this programme will benefit all previously disadvantaged South Africans, as creating a new elite is not an obvious panacea for the massive unemployment we find in South Africa today.

This programme could just end up being a redistribution of the wealth amongst politically connected state 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 8 of 239 cronies and should be viewed with great circumspection, as we are currently in a situation of endemic corruption and, quite possibly, state capture.
Further regulation of the steel industry will not work either.

There are always unintended and unforeseen consequences.

The 10% customs duty introduced last year already serves as a slow poison, killing the downstream industries.

Through Special Economic Zones and other measures, government desperately wants to create new jobs, but the intentions are crippled by policies and practices that were designed to achieve other political ends.
Until we can wipe those away through the commitment of this department, we will not see any meaningful shift in the unemployment rate.

Sadly, political factors seem to play a bigger role than poor technical and market-related considerations for economic growth in South Africa.

I believe there is nothing wrong with the legislation and the reputation we have adopted in this department to promote and protect investment.

The issue just seems to be implementing it.

The IFP supports this report.


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 9 of 239 Mr M S MABIKA: Hon House Chair, the Department of Trade and Industry is supposed to be a primary driver of economic growth, giving strategic direction to our trade and industry components of the economy and facilitating broad-based black conomic empowerment, BBBEE.
Yet, when we look at trade and industry figures in relation to the economic ill health of our country, then we have no alternative other than to fully endorse the first recommendation contained in the portfolio committee report tabled here, today.
Indeed, the Minister should prioritise a review of the effectiveness of the department and its entities, because right now, South Africa is lagging behind in our programme of action to accelerate industrialisation; and our unemployment remains unacceptable and dangerously high.

We need a department that will achieve more than 69% of its set of nine financial performance targets if it is to inspire confidence in South Africans.
We need a department that will take BBBEE seriously and not pay lip service to this important mechanism to redress historical imbalances.

Above all, we need a department that will show passion and creativity in the way it plots our strategic trade and industry policy, encouraging local 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 10 of 239 innovation, and ultimately, putting South Africa on a path of economic greatness.

Right now, the department does not fit the bill.


However, despite our concerns, the NFP supports the report.

I thank you.

Ms J L FUBBS: Good afternoon, Chairperson, hon members of this House and members in the gallery, and South Africa.

The ANC commends the overall performance of the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, and the great work it has managed to achieve with a small budget.

Look at the successes: 13 unqualified audits and one that has improved considerably.
There is the SA Bureau of Standards with the verification and the designation of local content.

Yes, it does remain a challenge and we look forward to the Minister of Finance’s amendments in this regard.

The revitalisation of industrial parks will generate local economic activity to grow local economies.

Then, there has been the highly successful R28 billion worth of projects in the Manufacturing Competitiveness Enhancement Programme, MCEP, and its targeted incentives.

It’s supported over 200 000 jobs!


Unfortunately, it was so attractive, it was over-subscribed.

So, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 11 of 239 we are heartened to get the news from Finance that this will be positively reviewed.

The ANC welcomes the Minister’s interventions, both the DTI and Department of Economic Development working in partnership around the pricing policy of steel, and the tariff measures.
This will ensure sustainability of a strategic sector and future existence with its upstream and high value-added downstream industries.

There are many things I wish to talk about: the One-stop Shops, Trade Investment Africa attracting billions of investment, the Black Industrialist programme itself, and the regulatory processes, which are all on track.

The Ease of Doing Business is there, and the National Credit Act.
When it comes to the regulatory compulsory services, we focus on consumer safety first, and nothing will compromise that.

The ANC supports this budget.

[Applause.]

Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 12 of 239 CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF STANDING COMMMITTEE ON FINANCE There was no debate.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you again, House Chair.

I move: That the Report be adopted.


Declarations of vote: Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report is a reminder of the excellent work done by National Treasury.

An institution like National Treasury, which allocates billions, reviews contracts, conducts forensic audits, asks hard questions about procurement, and demands actual performance against expenditure, will always be a target for state capture.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

That is why we all need to protect the institutional independence of National Treasury from the suck- ups, opportunists, dealmakers, rent-seekers and state capturers swarming around President Jacob Zuma, like that Minister, the hon ambassador from Saxonwold.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 13 of 239 Whatever the case, we support the committee’s recommendation that the Minister appoint a person with appropriate skills in the aviation industry to the SA Airways board.
However, we do not support the observation flowing from the committee’s supposed scrutiny and oversight of the SA Revenue Service, Sars.

Nor do we support the recommendation concerning inaccurate claims that the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, had to be forced to release details about the PIC’s unlisted portfolio.
The fact is, the PIC was forced to release information about the unlisted portfolio following a five-month campaign - which of course, is significant because, for the first time, we can scrutinise the 250 investments in the unlisted portfolio of the PIC.

The expectation that that information will be disclosed in the future will be a major disincentive from the rent-seekers with political influence raiding the PIC.
In the end, the Deputy Minister and the chief executive officer of the PIC were courageous and do deserve full credit for opening up the PIC.

I thank you.

[Applause.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 14 of 239 Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chair, look, we don’t agree with the BRRR of the Standing Committee on Finance, mostly because of the observations that we made on the entities that belong to the Standing Committee on Finance or the National Treasury.
Firstly, we have given a mandate - actually, like a broad view - to the Government Employees Pension Fund, GEPF, and the PIC that they must look into a fee-free education levy that must be taken from those two entities to finance fee-free education.

Because currently, they use that money to give to private corporations, to private equity, to asset management, in huge amounts of money.
We think that there must be a dedicated focus given to fee-free education coming from the available funds in the GEPF and the PIC.

Secondly, we have raised the issue about the governance issues around the Government Pensions Administration Agency, GPAA.

In its current form, the GPAA is not a constitutional and legal entity.

It must be made a legal entity so that it works properly.

The other entity that we are raising concern about is the Financial Intelligence Centre, FIC.
It must begin to take up issues that will lead to the successful litigation of those who 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 15 of 239 commit financial crimes.

There is too much financial crime happening in South Africa, from tax avoidance to money laundering to racketeering that is done by the Gupta family.

The FIC must play much more of a significant and visible role in making sure that there is litigation and successful prosecution of those that are committing financial crimes.
Lastly, regarding SA Airways, SAA, as one of the entities under National Treasury, we don’t think that it was correct of National Treasury to agree on a process that says we must turn SAA around with the involvement of Dudu Myeni.

Dudu Myeni Zuma is going to continue to cause problems at SAA, and we don’t think that it was decisive enough to have her continue in that role as the board chairperson of SAA.

We reject the BRRR.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

[Interjections.]


Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, at the outset, the IFP would like to commend National Treasury, under the able leadership of Minister Gordhan and Deputy Minister Jonas, for a job well done.

All we can say to them is that, on matters of principle, stand firm.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 16 of 239 The IFP supports this BRRR and must appreciate the Auditor- General’s unqualified audit opinion.
The IFP is concerned about management’s slow response when dealing with audit outcomes and the general lack of competence that is displayed.

There is a need for additional training and improvement in supply chain management and more devotion is needed in the area of procurement to aid this.

The Integrated Financial Management System is a huge responsibility, and the system is still currently being developed.

Another concern is over the functionality of SA Airways, SAA.
The fact that SAA was not audited by the Auditor-General due to capacity constraints remains a concern.

The quality of annual performance reports by National Treasury has not improved; and according to the Auditor-General’s report - particularly, the predetermined objectives in Programmes 4, 7 and 8 - these programmes collectively accounted for almost two thirds of the problems, and are not well defined, specific, and measurable.
This poses a challenge for Parliament to credibly assess the department’s service delivery, performance, efficiency, and effective use of allocated resources, in line with section 5 of the Money Bills and Related Matters Act.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 17 of 239 What is notable is the usefulness and the reliability of the reported performance information against predetermined objectives or selected programmes in the annual report, noncompliance with the legislation, and internal control.
Under way, of course, was the investigation of irregular appointments of service providers by National Treasury conducted by the Public Service Commission, which could have an impact on the department’s financial performance and compliance-related matters.

Finally, we want to raise the concern that the ongoing tension between the SA Revenue Service, Sars, and National Treasury remains a concern.

This does not bode well for the integrity and functionality of these two institutions.

I thank you.
I thank you.

Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, hon members, the NFP welcomes and supports the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report on Finance.

However, we want to raise a few concerns, and we believe that they will be taken into cognisance.

The National Treasury has become contested terrain and the potential prey of prowlers for state capture.
The Minister of Finance is operating in an environment of political hostility, distracted by the deployment of state agencies to destabilise 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 18 of 239 and undermine confidence and his integrity and ability to stand at the helm of the National Treasury.

Such blatant destabilisation of the department has far-reaching consequences for the country and may well impact negatively on the ability of the department to execute its mandate.
The NFP notes that the department has spent 97,8% of its budget but disappointingly, achieved only 76,5% of its target.

As a leading department which is expected to set the pace and standard for other departments with regard to financial management and service delivery, the Department of Finance has much room for improvement.

The Auditor-General has given the department an unqualified audit opinion, indicating that the department is, as a whole, being managed well, financially.
However, the observations and recommendations contained in the Auditor-General’s report should be taken seriously by the department.

Finally, the NFP is in agreement with the recommendations contained in the report of the Standing Committee on Finance tabled here, today.
In particular, we urge the department to attend to the problematic issues of a recurring nature, such as the vetting of employees, legislation not being implemented as 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 19 of 239 planned, oversight over public entities, in terms of the submission of the audit reports and annual financial statements, insufficient staff capacity, and delays in the ...

[Inaudible.]

... process.

Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP supports this report.
We share concerns about the possibility of a credit rating downgrade when the agencies do their review later this month and early next month.

A credit rating downgrade will result in the cost of borrowing, which is already a staggering R147 billion, rising significantly.

It will also cause capital flight, currency weaknesses, and economic growth to deteriorate further, resulting in job losses.

It is something we, as a country, cannot afford.


Now, one of the main risks to a possible downgrade is the state’s contingent liabilities and the extent to which guarantees to state-owned enterprises, SOEs, may be called upon.

These stood at R469,9 billion, with a total guarantee exposure of R263 billion, the largest exposure being Eskom, at more than R170 billion.
Now, it is for this reason that the ACDP supports the BRRR’s recommendation that National Treasury must strengthen its 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 20 of 239 oversight over SOEs, such as Eskom and SA Airways, SAA.

This, particularly, after the startling observations made by the Public Protector in a state capture report relating to Eskom.

We also agree that SAA and, in time, all SOEs, should be audited by the Auditor-General.
Yesterday, the Reserve Bank stated that the country’s deteriorating economic and fiscal outlay placed pressure on the sovereign credit rating.

But it also indicated that Moody’s have recently said that there is a less than 50% chance that it would downgrade the country later this month.

We, from the ACDP’s side, trust that the efforts of government, business, and labour will avert any downgrade.
We welcome the CEO Initiative, whereby chief executive officers will meet with the credit rating agencies ahead of the reviews.

Lastly, we must stop shooting ourselves in the foot, for example, by charging a sitting Minister of Finance with very serious charges and then withdrawing such charges.

This, the country can ill afford.

I thank you.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair and hon members, the UDM supports the BRRR of the Standing Committee on Finance.
We would, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 21 of 239 however, like to highlight a few areas of concern in the performance of the departments or entities that fall under the Standing Committee on Finance, some of which have already been highlighted in the report.

It concerns us greatly to see that National Treasury spent almost 100% of its budget while only managing to achieve 76,5% of its target.
While this is not entirely bad in terms of performance for the National Treasury, the situation is worse in other departments.

Generally, for instance, we find that departments perform poorly with regard to their predetermined objectives, while spending all their budgets.

Therefore, we propose that the target-setting exercise takes into account performance, both in terms of financial and nonfinancial performance, when setting and allocating resources to various entities around the country.
It has also become very important for us, as a nation, to verify and assess the quality of the spend in each and every single department that we have.

We agree with the committee that National Treasury must double its efforts in overseeing public entities when it comes to the submission of annual reports and annual financial statements.
It is unacceptable, in this day and age, for instance, to have 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 22 of 239 entities, such as SA Airways, that are allowed to go on for years without submitting annual financial statements and reports.
Underexpenditure in Programme 8 that deals with the Jobs Fund and the Municipal Finance Improvement Programme, which provides specialised services on procurement to municipalities and departments, and so on, has to be dealt with as a matter of urgency, as most municipalities depend on the services.

We thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Mr Y I CARRIM: There we go, Madam Chair.

Mr David Just-see-how- clever–I-am Maynier, ranting again: lots of noise, sound and fury, signifying nothing.
What actually happened?

We discovered that National Treasury spent 97,8% of the budget.

They delivered on more than three quarters of their targets.

The discrepancy was dealt with by the Auditor-General’s report.

The DA was unable to respond to the National Treasury when he explained why it was unable to deliver more.

So, here it is.
So, here it is.

All the noise and bluster and Mr David Me-me-me Maynier likes to present himself as this valiant hero, fighting 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 23 of 239 against the forces of darkness.

[Interjections.]

And the pun is intended because that’s what it is: Black people are the force of darkness.

That’s what it is.

[Interjections.]

Were it not for him, he argues, were it not for him, the PIC would never, never, never have listed its investments.

That’s not true.
That’s not true.

It is the ANC that put the PIC on the agenda in November last year.

[Applause.]

In November last year, our study group decided, in the public interest, that we would haul the PIC before Parliament and ask them about all these things.

Now, it may impress his bosses in the DA.

It might help to promote him in the DA.

But it has no material effect on the committee of this Parliament, or the country.

[Interjections.]

It is absolutely untrue that they were forced to do so.
When he talks about a five-month battle, what is it about?

Parliament rose at the end of May.

We had a three-month campaign for the election.

The only time the committee could meet was after the election.

So, for three months, Parliament did not sit.

Where is the five-month issue?

That is not true.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member!

Can you take a pause?

What is the point of order, hon Paulsen?

[Interjections.]

Order, members!


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 24 of 239 Mr M N PAULSEN: House Chair, the speaker sounds like he is in the Saxonwold shebeen here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon Paulsen!

Can you take your seat?

That was not a point of order.

Thank you.

Mr Y I CARRIM: And you are the last person to speak!

After all the bluster, after all the histrionics, what did we find out?

That the PIC is investing in black economic empowerment; that it is transforming the economy.
So, all the claims about corruption, and so on, are just wrong.

As for the other opposition parties, all of you make sensible suggestions, and the ANC will agree with them.

Thank you.

[Time expired.]

[Applause.]

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.

CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 25 of 239 There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move: That the Report be adopted.

Declarations of vote: Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Chairperson, the DA will be supporting this BRRR.

We most certainly do not do so in support of the Department of Communications or Minister Muthambi’s disastrous term as the Minister of Communications.
We support this Report in recognition of the stellar work of the Portfolio Committee on Communications that has done great work in keeping the Minister and the entities reporting to her accountable.

It has been an honour serving with the members of this committee who, of late, have become steadfast in fulfilling their constitutional obligations as elected public representatives of this august House.

Long may it last!
Long may it last!

With regard to the BRRR, the DA is pleased that the committee has agreed to regularly monitor the implementation of the recommendations contained in the report.
These recommendations 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 26 of 239 include requesting the Minister to make available the shareholder compacts that she has signed with entities, requesting full status of performance agreements of all management of entities, requesting that she presents to the committee concrete plans to ensure that the department and its entities respond to the recommendations of the Auditor-General, and ensuring that concrete plans are in place to address the consequences of poor performance at the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC.
With regard to the mess that is the SABC, the DA looks forward to participating in the parliamentary inquiry which it called for in order to get to the bottom of the government’s issues plaguing the SABC.

The inquiry will be vital to the survival of the SABC and the restoration of trust between the public broadcaster and the people of South Africa.

The establishment of this ad hoc committee is a victory for parliamentary accountability and the DA will engage in the process to make sure that it happens.
I thank you.

[Applause.]

Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, the EFF rejects this report and its recommendations.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 27 of 239 The Department of Communications is failing to create an enabling environment or one conducive to engagement in society to promote diversity and equality in media and communication.

The department is failing to urgently address the issue of monopoly, particularly on premium television content in South Africa.

Broadcasting is not regulated towards transformation.
This is made worse by controversial, and I might add, politically charged editorial decisions and policies in the SABC, an institution that is supposed to be independent, with a healthy proximity from people in power.

The 22-year-old failure of this department to give strategic and policy direction and whip the SABC into line and to work with the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa, is manifestation of its lack of capacity to fulfil its mandate.
In its last budget, the SABC failed to deal with issues around the payment of artists in back payments and this has not been dealt with by the so-called needletime, which is failing, especially in the television and singing industry.

It is made worse by the fact that the Minister fails to attend meetings and fails to attend Parliament, and therefore cannot 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 28 of 239 monitor this industry well.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

We are being misled here in Parliament by institutions such as the SABC because they’re not being monitored by this department.

For that reason, the EFF rejects this report.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

[Interjections.]

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: House Chairperson, the IFP agrees to the recommendations in this report but we do, however, have serious concerns.

Firstly, there is a lack of consequences for nonperformance in the department and its entities.
The Auditor-General has, again, reported more instances of irregular and fruitless expenditure.

However, these challenges are nothing compared to the crisis at the SABC.

There has been no leadership from Minister Muthambi.

Instead, she has remained mum while the SABC, again, has limped from one crisis to another.

It is important to remind ourselves how we got to the SABC crisis.
It starts here, in Parliament, through a flawed parliamentary process, a process which seeks to appoint the best qualified South Africans to the board, but a process which is 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 29 of 239 then abused by the ruling party as an opportunity to appoint loyal cadres to that SABC board.

We were just recently reminded by a former board member, Krish Naidoo, who told us that it was the ANC that appointed him to the board, not Parliament.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

His sentiments were shared by the hon Muthambi, who told us earlier this year, that if you want to serve on the SABC board, you must move from this side of the House to that side of the House.

[Interjections.]

So, political interference has been built into the SABC and ruthlessly exploited by the ANC.

Now that the ANC is divided, the board has gone rogue.

It is beholden to a faction within the ANC.


The IFP looks forward to the inquiry that will be held - which we will support - which will also help us get to the bottom of the crisis.

But for as long as political interference continues to destabilise our public broadcaster, the IFP will remain defiant in saying: “Paying your TV licence is not the right thing to do, hon Minister.” [Applause.]

HON MEMBERS: Malibongwe!


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 30 of 239 Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, hon members, the NFP wants to put forth some of the very pertinent suggestions which, I think, will be in the best interest of the Department of Communications, because we have observed that this department has been limping from one challenge to another.

The challenges in the Department of Communications are not new, particularly with the SABC.
We have noted that, when it comes to matters of governance, management, and fiscal discipline, there has been a total breakdown.

There are critical vacancies that have not been filled for years.

This makes it impossible, especially for the SABC, to function properly.

And disciplinary steps have not been taken.

The NFP comes here in good faith, hon Minister, to say it is time you crack the whip and put things in their proper order, in the SABC, in particular.
We cannot have a public broadcaster that is perceived to be operating for a political party.

The public broadcaster is for all the races of the country.

The NFP says, in good faith, therefore, that it is high time those vacancies are filled in the SABC, and if there is any person that has done wrong, that person is to be disciplined.

If there are vacancies that are not filled, they must be filled.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 31 of 239 Financial controls have broken down and the NFP cannot accept that.
We want to say, therefore, the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, must respond to the charter, as it is recorded that the SABC Charter should reflect South African attitudes, opinions, ideas, values, and artistic creativity.

As espoused in the charter, the SABC must display South African talent in education and entertainment programmes, and so on.

The NFP supports the recommendations brought here ... [Time expired.]
Mr C H M MAXEGWANA: Hon Chair, the ANC supports the BRRR and we want to highlight issues, as follows.

The Department of Communications received a clean audit in its first financial year as a new department.

[Applause.]

The acting director-general and his team must be congratulated and the political head of the department, Minister Muthambi, must be congratulated.

[Applause.]

The Government Communication and Information System, GCIS, has been consistent in receiving clean audits.
We must also say that it gets clean audits despite having allocated most of its resources to the newly established Department of Communications.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 32 of 239 Remember that the GCIS is a department on its own with an acting director-general under the Minister of Communications.
Brand South Africa, BSA; the Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA; the Film and Publication Board, FPB; the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa; and the SABC are entities of the department.

For the first time after three financial years, BSA received a clean audit.

[Applause.]

However, the MDDA, Icasa, and the FPB remained stagnant, as they received unqualified audit opinions with findings.
The challenge, though, is going to be to sustain the clean audit status received by the GCIS and the Department of Communications and its entities.

If what the Portfolio Committee ...

Thank you very much.

[Time expired.]

[Applause.]

Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.

CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 33 of 239 There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move: That the Report be adopted.

Declarations of vote: Ms A STEYN: Chairperson, it is a concern to the DA that the department responsible for food security in this country has had its budget cut over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework to the tune of R515 million over the next three years.

We find it unacceptable that the department is directly responsible for these budget cuts due to underspending.
Our report, then, insists that the department submit an analysis to Treasury detailing the effects of such budget cuts on farmers and on food security, and their plans to properly administer these budgets.

The department has set a target of assisting 300 000 small-scale black farmers, but in the absence of an agricultural census, it is impossible to assess if there is a real impact on agricultural reform in South Africa.

We therefore support that this census takes place as soon as possible.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 34 of 239 The recent drought has had a severe impact on the cultivation of land and on food production.

It is therefore unacceptable that only 6% of uncultivated land has been used for food production this year and that no clear plan exists on how we’re going to change it in the current year.

With rising food prices and the constitutional right to the availability and accessibility of adequate food, this is a problem.
It is unacceptable that no comprehensive strategy exists to assist farmers to mitigate or adapt to climate change, and that a mere R220 million extra has been allocated for drought relief.

It is also inadequate to address the worst drought on record in South Africa.

The committee has therefore set a deadline to the department for February 2016 to ensure a comprehensive and practical, early- warning system and measure to respond to future climate change phenomena.

We will support this report.

Thank you.


[Time expired.]

Mr M N PAULSEN: Chair, this department has done nothing different from what was done under apartheid.

It has failed to dent the patterns of ownership when it comes to our agricultural 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 35 of 239 and Oceans Economies.

In fact, big business is safer under this government than it was under apartheid.
On 8 November 2016, in a portfolio committee meeting, the Minister himself said - by the way, the Minister is a member of the SA Communist Party - that he has a fear of the Big Five ocean companies and the stranglehold that they have on our fishing quotas.

The cowardice of this government is the reason our coastal fishing villages have become ghost towns, with their harbours in a state of decay.

The recent fishing allocation process has, again, rendered our traditional, small-scale fishers as casualties.
For example, only 25 out of 200 applicants from the Vrygrond fishing co- operative were granted licenses.

This is just as disastrous as with Tina Joemat-Pettersson, where quotas were allocated to MK veterans who didn’t know a fishing rod from an AK-47.

This government will never turn on its cronies in big business and nationalise the economy for the benefit of all South Africans.

The state of our agricultural economy is equally disastrous.
The dispossession of South Africa started with land dispossession.

Eighty per cent of South Africa is agricultural land.

In the table grape sector, here in the Western Cape, there are 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 36 of 239 12 500 ha of table grape farmland, but only 48 ha are owned by blacks.

Ownership is the key issue when it comes to agriculture.

This is also the main cause of upheaval in the agricultural sector.

The scary part is that this department has a chronic staff issue.
A human resources official has been purging competent staff members on behalf of the executive.

She always arrives late for work and hung over - probably from frequenting the Saxonwold shebeen - she has lost employee files, and suspended staff without following the proper procedures.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, your time is up.

Mr M N PAULSEN: It is for this reason that the EFF cannot support this report.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Nkosi R N CEBEKHULU: House Chair, the IFP supports the report.

The continuing, severe drought conditions in the country have seen the department’s resources, both budgetary and human, stretched to the maximum as it assisted drought-stricken areas across the country.

Smallholder and subsistence farmers benefited greatly from the relief received.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 37 of 239 In respect of the utilisation of land falling under traditional communities, the department must take care not to duplicate its role with that of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform.

Land care, eradication of alien plants or vegetation, and the fostering of indigenous vegetation must be a priority.
It is also suggested that the department identify areas in our rural areas most affected by the current drought conditions and build small dams for communal livestock to share.

Animal welfare remains of grave concern, not only in terms of the supply of water but also in respect of the current fireworks season which is upon us.

The IFP calls for stricter control as regards fireworks being used only in controlled areas, and that this be enforced by the local authorities.
Mr S C MNCWABE: Hon Chairperson, hon members, the NFP believes in giving credit where it is due, and we have noted that the department has received an unqualified audit opinion.

Both the irregular and wasteful expenditure, as well as the fruitless expenditure, in the department have been reduced substantially.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

We also note that the department has reduced its underspending, from R63,5 million in the previous financial year, to a 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 38 of 239 commendable R8,2 million this year.

The department has also spent more than 99,5% across all its programmes.

The department also achieved 81,7% of its target, which is reported on its annual performance plan.

The NFP believes that the performance is reasonable.
It does, however, leave plenty of room for improvement, especially in Programme 5, responsible for forestry and natural resources management, and Programme 6, responsible for fisheries management.

The NFP fully supports the observations and the recommendations of the portfolio committee.

In particular, we support the recommendation that additional funding be allocated for the planned agricultural census, which could be an invaluable instrument for meaningful and speedy land reform.

I thank you.
I thank you.

[Applause.]

Mr M L W FILTANE: Chair, the UDM supports the report and is encouraged by the improvement shown by the department.

However, this Ministry remains an apologetic member of the Economics cluster, as agriculture is still stuck below the 3% line in our gross domestic product, GDP.

A contributing factor thereto is 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 39 of 239 the lack of land ownership by black farmers.

Hence, they marched to the Union Buildings recently.
The political capture site in South Africa is in KwaZulu-Natal.

The economic capture site is in Saxonwold, right in the economic hub of this country.

[Interjections.]

If we agree that the agricultural economy has not yet been seen by black farmers, then the department should do the following.

The department must actualise the promise made to the farmers of upgrading 50 farmers per province.

The department must ensure that the farmers have ownership of the land with title deeds in their hands.
The department should, with immediate effect, train its personnel so that they are fully equipped with skills to help emerging farmers to graduate into commercial farmers.

The Ministry must pay attention to the scary state of affairs of the Fort Cox Agriculture and Forestry Training Institute, in the Eastern Cape, because, 20 years into democracy, this college is governed by an interim Bill which was intended to repeal the Ciskei Decree.
The staff members of that college are not sure who their employer is, resulting in instability and a lack of commitment to work.

The students do not have access to the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 40 of 239 Misalignment between the budget and the programmes of the department is not acceptable.

The department has failed to meet the target of allocating rights to nine fishing sectors, with absolutely no explanation for the reasons.
Minister, we hope you are aware that 11 000 hectares of land previously acquired by this government and handed over to communal property associations, CPAs, for agricultural production have not been ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, your time is up.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Is there no co-operation between your department and Mr Nkwinti’s?

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: House Chair, in order to live, one must eat.
The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is a living department in the sense that it feeds the nation and provides employment opportunities.

Just like mining, agriculture contributes to the growth of the South African economy.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 41 of 239 The committee did receive the report.

We deliberated and made our observations and recommendations.

We now table this report for adoption by this House.
Though the department is trying its best, there are challenges that need to be attended to.

The 490 ha bought at R400 million distributed to provinces - that is, 75 ha per province - can no longer be traced.

This is a big challenge, because people did not benefit from those hectares.

Only certain individuals benefited.

If the traditional leaders and the stakeholders had been properly consulted, this would not have happened.
Again, another challenge is the debts that have been incurred as a result of the loans that were made to staff members.

These debts cannot just be written off because these are the monies that are supposed to help the poor people.

Therefore, efforts must be made to recover these monies.

Another challenge is that of El Niño.

El Niño leads to drought that has a great, negative impact on our agricultural products.

However, there is a lot that this department has done.
For instance, the signing of the Small-Scale Fisheries Policy in February 2016 should be appreciated.

This means that the 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 42 of 239 ordinary people, poor people, will be in a position to legally engage in fishing.

This department should ensure that food security is for all.

Thank you very much.

[Time expired.]

Mr C C MATHALE: Chair, from the onset, the ANC would like to thank all the political parties who participated in the deliberations of the portfolio committee.
Their contributions were quite fruitful - except one party, of course, which does not attend such meetings, and we shall talk to that at a later stage.

We, the ANC, are happy that the department performed extremely well in implementing its key policy indicators.
The Small-Scale Fisheries Policy, which is one of our transformatory policies, is on track, and I must indicate to those who have a problem with this policy and the manner in which we are running this department that deracialising the economy, particularly the fishing sector, is not negotiable.

The department and its entities - the Agricultural Research Council, ARC; Onderstepoort Biological Products, OBP; the SA Veterinary Council, SAVC; and so on - have all received a clean audit, and it is commendable.
[Applause.]

I must say that comments from the Auditor-General indicated to all of us that 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 43 of 239 there are a few issues that were highlighted from the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, which they need to attend to.

Now, I can tell you that this department is one of the candidates that qualified for a clean audit, which is an unqualified audit opinion and without any matters of emphasis.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

Minister, we, the ANC, must say you should continue doing the good work!

You have a new director-general, who is energetic, and so on.

You must therefore use that energy effectively.

The road to success is always under construction.

Don’t be distracted by some people who do not understand what it is that you are talking about.

Thank you very much, Chair.

[Time expired.]

Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.


CONSIDERATION OF BUDGETARY REVIEW AND RECOMMENDATION REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMMITTEE ON LABOUR 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 44 of 239 There was no debate.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move: That the Report be adopted.

Declarations of vote: Mr I M OLLIS: Deputy Speaker, the DA will support this Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of the Department of Labour because it captures most of our concerns.
Of course, it goes without saying that the bench of the Minister of Labour is empty when we are debating something on labour.

It has long been the practice of this Minister to show the middle finger to this House and to meetings of the Portfolio Committee on Labour, which she has only attended once in almost six years - for 13 minutes.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Of course, the reason for that is that the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Labour also shows the middle finger to the committee by refusing to invite the Minister.

It is like a tag team of two people who are not ever going to come to Parliament and answer.

There are four things which I want to highlight in the report.
Firstly, the information and communications technology, ICT, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 45 of 239 targets – the computer targets - were never achieved for the last financial year.

You can see it if you go to the Randburg labour office.

Three times last week, the computer system did not work.

People queued the whole day but they could not get their Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, and compensation claims in because the computer system doesn’t work.
Secondly, promoting sound labour relations is a goal of this department and it has specific targets.

It failed to achieve any of the targets.

Think about that.

Its job is to promote sound labour relations and it fails at all those targets.
Thirdly, we note that the chairman of the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, board was appointed irregularly for five years, without a nomination from the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, which is required in terms of section 116 of the Labour Relations Act.

He was appointed for five years, when the Act specifies he can only be appointed for three years.

That is what happens when you appoint cadres of the government.
Finally, we have requested the department to provide regular feedback on court cases that have been reported to the SA Police Service, SAPS, for corruption in this department.

We are 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 46 of 239 specifically looking for answers on the money spent by the former executive director and the chief financial officer of Nedlac, who took the platinum cards and went on a spending spree, buying clothing at the Ferrari Store.

[Time expired.]

Thank you.


Mr T RAWULA: Deputy Speaker, the EFF rejects the Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of the portfolio committee.

We do so, based on the following observations.

The department has failed to provide oversight over its entities, in particular, two of them.

The first is the Compensation Fund.

The entity has had a pay-out backlog of over R70 million for the past three to five years.

They call it a legacy fund.


Over 45 000 people in the whole of South Africa have been hopelessly waiting for their pay-outs.

The department is holding the money.

The second is Productivity South Africa.

The entity has failed to live up to its mandate.

The entity is charged with the mandate of making the South African workplace productive and creating an enabling environment for job creation and job retention.

Instead, the entity has done the opposite.


The South African workplace has become unproductive and a job shedder.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 47 of 239 The Auditor-General, in both entities, has found inefficiency in terms of leadership and financial control.

Under the department, we have seen the collapse of labour relations.

Right now, the workers at Robertson Winery have been on strike for the past two months, demanding a living wage and humane conditions.
Because they are not blocking the roads or burning property, the Minister and her department have not been able to be there to provide answers and leadership.

The sectoral determination for farm workers, which came about as a result of the farm workers on De Doorns farms, has not been implemented.

Workers are still being paid peanuts and with wine and food.

Farmers charge workers for electricity, and for petrol to go and buy food, and for rent.
At the end of the month, most farm workers have a negative balance on their payslips.

This is slavery, right under the nose of the democratic government.

The Minister has not been able to utter a single word.

We reject the Budgetary Review.

[Time expired.]

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Hon Deputy Speaker, the IFP will support the report.

However, as I have stated on numerous occasions, there remain unresolved and contentious issues in the Labour Relations Act that require redress and speedy resolution.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 48 of 239 One of these is a decision on the application of a minimum wage regime.

In this respect, I am aware that protracted negotiations are currently taking place at National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, around the national minimum wage.

However, the IFP remains of the opinion that a standard, cross- sectoral, national minimum wage will do more harm than good.
A sector-specific minimum wage will prevent unnecessary job losses in sectors that are marginal or experiencing difficulties.

An example is the current drought conditions that are ravaging our agricultural sector.

A national minimum wage, if in effect, could have led to massive retrenchment and greater unemployment.

Unemployment in South Africa is beyond crisis levels.

It is a national disaster.

A work force of approximately 9 million unemployed is nothing short of a social and economic catastrophe.
We have one of the highest unemployment rates in the world, which is growing worse and worse, day by day.

Labour absorption remains critically low and nonparticipation in terms of labour force available shows about 27% unemployment.

These estimates are conservative and take into account only those actively seeking jobs.

The growing class of discouraged 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 49 of 239 job seekers are not factored in - I mean those who have simply given up looking for employment opportunities.
Our unemployed must be assisted in finding and keeping gainful employment, as its corollary only fast-tracks people into using their pension funds prematurely.

I thank you.

[Time expired.]

Mr S C MNCWABE: Hon Deputy Speaker, South Africa is in the grip of an economic crisis and we are staring into the abyss of a credit rating downgrade, which will make matters even worse.

One of the factors which has contributed significantly to our economic downward spiral is policy uncertainty.
Our labour policy is considered to be one of the major concerns deterring would-be investors from investing in our country.

The blame for this policy uncertainty must be laid on the shoulders of the Department of Labour.

It comes as no surprise, if you consider that the department has failed to achieve half of its strategic goals and less than 43% of its goals in Programme 4, which deals with labour policy and industrial relations.
The NFP also notes with concern the substantial increase in irregular expenditure to R25,3 million in the current financial cycle, from R80,1 million, previously.

At the same time, we have 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 50 of 239 to commend the entities of the department for the dramatic reduction in irregular expenditure, from R446 million in 2014-15 to R58 million in the 2015-16 financial year.
The department would be well advised to implement the recommendations contained in the report by the portfolio committee today and, in particular, to urgently address issues raised by the Auditor-General.

In addition, the department should, in our view, make a greater effort to bring stability to our labour policy and treat it as a matter of urgency.

Our economic recovery requires all role- players to contribute, and the Department of Labour is an important role-player in this regard.
The NFP supports the report.

I thank you.

Ms L E YENGENI: Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports the report.

The Minister will come to the committee ... HON MEMBERS: When?

When?

Ms L E YENGENI: ... when there are issues that the department cannot answer.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 51 of 239 On the issue of the Centre for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, and the forensic report, it is a broken record.
Each and every year, the hon Ollis stands here and tells you about the forensic report.

The truth is known - that that report was sent to the SAPS and it is still with them.

There is no report yet.

That, he knows.

The ANC applauds the department for attaining an unqualified audit outcome for the fifth consecutive year.

[Applause.]

This is an affirmation of the hard work put in by the department to address the numerous issues around governance and financial management.
Over the 2015-16 financial year, the department has honoured commitments, such as quarterly reporting to the committee.

These have assisted in ensuring close monitoring of the department’s programme performance and expenditure.

The ANC acknowledges and accepts the Auditor-General’s findings on the Department of Labour’s state of financial health.
The Portfolio Committee on Labour has already engaged with the department’s leadership to ensure that the corrective steps given by the Auditor-General are given urgent attention.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 52 of 239 The history of the audit outcome of the Compensation Fund has been marked with negativity in terms of the findings.

However, the committee appreciates the progress made towards addressing the audit findings.

An action plan has been developed to put systems in place to improve service delivery.
For example, an electronic ...

Thank you.

[Time expired.]

[Applause.]

Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The next item on the Order Paper is the motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.

Hon Maimane.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take your seat, hon member.

Can we welcome our visitors in the gallery?


You are most welcome, but we don’t welcome your applause or participation in any form.

That is left for your representatives on the floor of the House.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 53 of 239 Hon Shivambu, what are you rising on?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, I am rising on a point of order: We have written you letters, repeatedly, to specifically request that, in the process of removing a President ... because we voted for him through a secret ballot ... Later on, when the voting on this question arises, we need to do so by secret ballot, because it is logical.

We voted a President into power through a secret ballot.

When we have to remove that President, it should be done via secret ballot.
We know that the majority of us here in Parliament would want to remove the President, but there is fear of victimisation.

Can we therefore agree that, at the end of this process, we will use a secret ballot so that we are able to get rid of the crisis that is facing South Africa, and our people remain safe?

So, that is the concrete issue that we want to table - that, at the end of this debate, we must vote via secret ballot.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order.

Secondly ...
Secondly ...

[Interjections.]

Take your seat.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 54 of 239 Hon members, the voting procedures in the Assembly are determined by the Constitution and the Rules of the Assembly.

There is no provision for a vote on a motion of no confidence, in terms of section 102 of the Constitution, or for the removal of the President, in terms of section 89 of the Constitution, to be conducted through a secret ballot.
The Constitution provides for specific instances where the Assembly conducts its business by secret ballot, namely the election of the President, the Speaker, and the Deputy Speaker, when more than one candidate is nominated.

In the matter of Plouamma and Others v The Speaker and Another, the Western Cape High Court ruled that there was no implied or expressed constitutional requirement for voting by secret ballot in respect of a motion of no confidence in the President.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

For these reasons, and in the interest of the National Assembly’s obligation in terms of the Constitution to conduct its business in an open and transparent manner, a vote by way of secret ballot is not agreed to.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 55 of 239 As we said to you in writing, hon member, that position remains unchanged.
Please proceed, hon ... Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, on more than one occasion, we brought to the attention of the Rules Committee and the subcommittee that deals with the Rules that it is basic logic that, if you vote for a person through a secret ballot and you get to the stage where you have to remove that person, a secret ballot must be the method through which you remove such a person.

[Interjections.]

We are appealing to you that we have to engage ...


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let him finish first, hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... through a secret ballot to remove a person who was voted in through a secret ballot.

Why is that difficult?

What is difficult about that?

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 56 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright, take your seat, hon member.
What is difficult is that for that decision to take place, it must be agreed to in the appropriate structures of Parliament, and it has not been agreed to.

[Interjections.]

In the absence of such an agreement, there is no way that we are going to agree to that now.

This House is conducted strictly according to the Rules, not by my whims as presiding officer, now, or the whims of any other presiding officer.

[Interjections.]

Politically, that is a necessity in order for us to proceed.

Hon Chief Whip?
Hon Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I don’t know why the EFF wants to disrupt the workings of this House.

[Interjections.]

Judge Goliath, in the Western Cape High Court, ruled as follows on the same matter.

The Constitution provides, as you have said, but Judge Goliath further said that there is no implied or expressed constitutional requirement for voting by secret ballot in respect of a motion of no confidence in the President.

We have a court judgment.


Why do we entertain this man?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

[Interjections.]

Hon ...

[Interjections.]

Hon Chief Whip?

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 57 of 239 Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, may I respond to that man?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... Mr N F SHIVAMBU: May I respond to that man?

That man who goes outside to say that you must remove the President and then comes here and plays double standards.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... hon Chief Whip ...

[Interjections.]

Hon member, take your seat first!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can I respond to that man first?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can I respond to that double-headed man ...

[Inaudible.]

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... Hon Shivambu ... No, take your seat, please!

Take your seat.

Hon Chief Whip, Rule 82 requires of us to call each other here “Mister” or “honourable”.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 58 of 239 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr Shivambu.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Take your seat.

Hon Shivambu, the same applies to you.

[Interjections.]

The same applied to you.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Mr Jackson.

[Laughter.]

The principle, Deputy Speaker, is that the Constitution states that, in order to run the affairs of this House, the National Assembly must pass Rules that are consistent with the Constitution.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: And a Rule that states that we cannot remove a President who was elected through a secret ballot by the same means is not consistent with the Constitution.

A proper interpretation of how we want to remove a President is that we have to use a secret ballot because there is a real fear of victimisation.

Your members of the ANC have already said this President must fall.

What is difficult about agreeing now that we must use a secret ballot?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat.

Take your seat.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It’s a basic thing that we have to do.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 59 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat.

Hon members, we will proceed.

The ruling remains.

There is no provision for the distinguishing of this matter.

We proceed as agreed to.

Proceed, hon Maimane.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, may I have your attention, please?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.


Mr N L S KWANKWA: The principle that we should try to have a secret ballot this time around actually has to do with the fact that we are trying to save you guys, firstly.

[Interjections.]

We are doing you a favour.

[Interjections.]

But I think ...

[Interjections.]

No, it’s true.

[Interjections.]

Should I wait for them to finish?

Because I am going to make my point.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable ... Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, I want to make my point.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?

I have ruled.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 60 of 239 Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, I need your protection.

Can you call them to order?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...

[Interjections.]

Hon members, allow me to deal with the member in front of me.

[Interjections.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, in your ruling, you said that such a decision would have to be made in the appropriate structures of Parliament.

Did you say that?

[Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Yes.

[Interjections.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA: We agree with you entirely.

So, we are saying perhaps this matter should be deferred so that Chief Whips can have a brief consultation about what to do and how to take the process forward.

[Interjections.]

You have a problem because Luthuli House is turning you into an interest group ... ... yokuxhasa i-ANC apha.

Ngoku nifuna simamele loo nto noMsholozi.

[... of supporting the ANC here.


Now, you want us to listen to that with Msholozi.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 61 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... hon Kwankwa, address me.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Yes, yes, I am proposing.

The proposal from the UDM says this matter ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright, take your seat.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, no, but you are asking me to conclude my point!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I’ve heard you, hon member.

I’ve heard you.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Can I conclude my point, please?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Conclude and finish, yes.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: We are asking that this matter be deferred so that Chief Whips can have a discussion and consultation around it.

The Chief Whips’ Forum is a structure of Parliament, is it not?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright.


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 62 of 239 Mr N L S KWANKWA: The issue that you are saying ... We are proposing that this matter ... we should do it via a secret ballot and we are saying that it should be taken to that structure so that we can have a discussion about it.

If you say an appropriate structure of Parliament must deal with it, it means you yourself can’t deal with it right now.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright.

Hon members ...

[Interjections.]

Hon member ...


The Programming Committee confirmed this meeting today.

There will be no change.

[Interjections.]

Ms H O HLOPHE: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

Ms H O HLOPHE: I rise on Rule 92.

Deputy Speaker, what is so difficult for you, as ANC members, to use a secret ballot?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Ms H O HLOPHE: Why are you so afraid of using the secret ballot if you are sure of your numbers?

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 63 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I have ruled on this matter.

Ms H O HLOPHE: No, no, just clarify this for me.

As the ANC, what are you afraid of?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.

[Interjections.]

Ms H O HLOPHE: We want to save this country from Zuma!

Please!

[Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.

[Interjections.]

Hon members, we have dealt with this matter.

Yes, hon member?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker!

Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, take your seat.

There is a member at the back there.

What are you rising on, hon member?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Deputy Speaker, I just want to request you to make sure that the House understands that we are just here for debate.
Then, when we go for voting, the members can raise all those things.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Not, actually ... 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 64 of 239 The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: By the way, Deputy Speaker, the members must know, we, as the ANC, are still going to vote but we are not going to take instructions from them.

Thank you.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...

[Interjections.]

Go ahead, hon member.

[Interjections.]

Go ahead.


The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, we would like to call on you to allow the debate to proceed.

The hon Maimane is waiting.

We are ready to debate the matter.

We are ready to vote when the time comes.

The matter of voting arises after we have debated.

We would like to proceed with the business of the day.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, that’s exactly what we will do.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Hon Madisha, you are the last person on this matter.

[Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Uxolo, Sihlalo, ubungikhombile.

[On a point of order, Chairperson, you have recognised me.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, no, no!

No, I have mentioned, hon Khawula ... 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 65 of 239 Ms M S KHAWULA: Bengifune ukwazi ukuthi yini inkinga?

Nisabani ukuthi?

[I wanted to know, what is the problem?

What are you scared of?]

[Inaudible.]

[Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no!

[Interjections.]

Hon Madisha, please go ahead.

[Interjections.]

Mr W M MADISHA: Deputy Speaker, you have quoted a number of instances which actually state that we must go on.

Alright?

That we must not have this thing ... That the secret ballot is actually extremely important.

I mean, when the President gets elected, it is through the secret ballot.
The case of Plouamma, and so on, there, the issue of the secret ballot is issues of right.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, no.

Mr W M MADISHA: I am saying, therefore, that you are wrong.

You are wrong, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, alright.

Mr W M MADISHA: And we therefore have got to follow that which is correct.

If you follow that route, then we are absolutely 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 66 of 239 unfair.
There has got to be a secret ballot, otherwise Mr Zuma will be there to vote for a particular point that he wants himself.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we have had rulings on this matter before ... Ms M S KHAWULA: Wesihlalo, awuzwani nabantu abahloniphayo?

[Chairperson, do you not like a person with respect?]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no!

Hon member, no!

Don’t do that.

Ms M S KHAWULA: Yindaba ungangikhombi?

[Why are you not recognising me?]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Don’t do that!

Take your seat!
Take your seat!

You have no right!

[Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Yindaba ungangikhombi?

[Why are you not recognising me?]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no!

Take your seat!

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 67 of 239 Ms M S KHAWULA: Yindaba ungamkhombi?

[Why are you not recognising me?]

Angilona ilungu lala mina?

[Am I not a member of this House?]

Am I not a member of this House?

[Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Akakholwa namanje lomuntu ukuthi uyilungu?
[Does he still not believe that you are a member?]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Am I not a member here?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: [Interjections.]

Hon members, we have made a ruling on this matter before, and the Joint Rules Committee made Rules on this matter.

[Interjections.]

The courts have pronounced themselves on the matter.

We will not deviate from that decision now.

Members must prepare themselves.


If they wish to do that ... to take up this matter in the structures ... today, we are proceeding with the debate, as agreed to this morning, and today.

Hon Maimane, please proceed.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker ... Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, please proceed.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 68 of 239 Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, but I am calling for your attention.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why, hon member?


What ... Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am rising on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon member?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, you have made decisions before like that.

Don’t short-cut anything.

The simple thing is that ... alright ... subject the decision to the House, then.
When it comes to voting, you must subject the decision to the House and you must remember that, even if you steamroll a decision through, your narrow, majoritarian approach is still subject to constitutional challenge.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Because it cannot be correct that we vote for a person through a ballot which is secret, and then later on, when we have to remove him, we must vote openly!

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 69 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we are proceeding.
Take your seat.

[Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There are Gupta Ministers here!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are out of order!

[Interjections.]

Completely out of order!

Please understand, hon members, we are not allowing any more hands.

Please!

Let’s allow the debate to proceed.

[Interjections.]

Yes, let’s proceed.

Hon Maimane, proceed.

Mr L G MOKOENA: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

Hon members, I have said that we are proceeding with the debate.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No!

No!

Mr L G MOKOENA: Can I be recognised, please?

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 70 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have recognised you, and I am saying no, sir!

Please accept that!

Mr L G MOKOENA: No, but you have not recognised me.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please accept that.

Mr L G MOKOENA: No, but you cannot recognise me and say no!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I am not allowing you to proceed on this matter.
Can you allow me to proceed ... Mr L G MOKOENA: Deputy Speaker, it is on a different matter.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the different matter?

Mr L G MOKOENA: Deputy Speaker, I just wanted to alert the House to two constitutional issues.

One, everybody has the right to vote.

Two, the Bill of Rights in section 14(d) states that we have the right to privacy.

In light of the victimisation that the Chief Whip of the EFF is speaking about, what right must be implemented in this House?
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 71 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are out of order.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: For the sake of progress, I would propose that we vote on this matter.

For the sake of progress.

Because we also have rights, as Members of Parliament.

We are here to debate this matter.

We cannot be distracted by people who don’t want to be part of this House.

Can we vote on this matter, hon Deputy Speaker?


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can’t vote on a constitutional issue!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead, hon member.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

I just want us to be reminded of the fact that we have a Rule Book ...

[Interjections.]

... and that, in terms of the Rules of this Parliament, once the Chair has given a considered ruling on a matter ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: What Rule is that?

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 72 of 239 The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I refer you to Rule 92(6), which reads ...

[Interjections.]

You might learn something if you just shut up for a bit!

[Interjections.]

It reads that no point of order ...

[Interjections.]

... Deputy Speaker ...

[Interjections.].

It reads that no point of order may be raised in response to a considered ruling — which you have already made, Deputy Speaker.
I really want to propose that we uphold the Rules of this House, and that all points of order following your ruling be ruled out of order.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have done that, hon members.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I have suggested ... Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 73 of 239 Mr N L S KWANKWA: I wish to agree.

I rise to agree with the proposal that has been made.
It has been my plea.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no!

Hon member!

Hon Kwankwa!

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Can I help you, Sir?

I would like to help you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Kwankwa, you are out of order.

Nobody allowed you to speak, in the first place.

So, take your seat.

[Interjections.]

No!

Take your seat!

Whether you are rising, or not, hon member, I have pointed out to you that we have ruled on this matter.

Hon Maimane, I request you now to proceed.


I am not allowing anybody ... Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, please proceed.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, there is a proposal on the floor.

[Interjections.]

There’s a proposal on the floor!

There is a proposal from the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 74 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I will deal with that matter at the appropriate time in the House.

Let’s proceed.
Let’s proceed.

[Interjections.]

Hon Shenge, with respect, sir, can you allow us to proceed?

[Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Mnikeze!

Mnikeze, mnikeze, baba.

[Give him!

Give him, give him, sir.]

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead, hon Shenge.

Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, I just want to ask a question, Sir, so that I can be enlightened.

Why do you allow this debate?

You have made a ruling here.

The Chief Whip actually did this.


Why do you allow ... people to stand without you recognising them?

And you allow them to do that.

You have all the power to say that they must sit down.

You have all the power to say that they must leave the House.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, proceed.


MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE IN MR JACOB G ZUMA AS PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 75 of 239 (Draft Resolution) The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, hon members, fellow South Africans, dumelang [greetings].

This is South Africa.

It is a land of contrasts, where hope overcomes fear.

It is a land where light shines through the darkness and where good triumphs over evil.
This is South Africa, where every generation faces its own struggle.

As for the fight against colonialism and the fight against apartheid, we have overcome these struggles.

We can overcome anything.

[Interjections.]

This is South Africa, a place of reconciliation and forgiveness, where one man spent 27 years in prison so that we could all be free.

He remains our moral icon.

[Interjections.]


This is South Africa, a place of unimaginable beauty and extreme deprivation, where the majesty of the landscape is blighted only by the poverty of its people.

This is a scar on our collective conscience.

This is South Africa, home of the best Constitution in the world.

A progressive charter, specially tailored to overcome our 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 76 of 239 painful past, in which our social rights are enshrined alongside our civil rights.
This is South Africa.

It is the country we love.

It is the country that we live for, and the country that we fight for, and the country that we will die for.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

Hon members, we are here ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

Order!

Order!

Order!

Hon members, the members would like to hear.

[Interjections.]

Proceed.

Proceed, hon member.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon members, we are here to make a choice.
The choice that we will make today will determine the future of every South African.

[Interjections.]

Today, we can choose corruption, or we can choose opportunity for all.

We can choose to sit back while our state is captured by the greedy and the corrupt, or we can stand up against state capture.

We can choose to elevate one man above the law, or we can fight for every person to be equal before the law.
We can choose to let one man enrich himself, or we can help millions to free themselves from poverty.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 77 of 239 To put it plainly, Deputy Speaker, we can choose Mr Jacob Zuma, or we can choose South Africa.

That is the choice that each one of us must make today.

[Applause.]

When we make this choice, we must remember that whatever party we represent here, we are all members of Team South Africa.

Many of us in this House share the same hopes and the same fears.
We all want a better tomorrow.

Yes, we have our differences.

But we are not actually sworn enemies.

The people who voted for us voted for us to stand up for them and not to fight each other.

They put us here so that we can work together to find solutions to our country’s challenges.

Let us not forget that before 1994, South Africans came together from across the political divide to map our shared future.
The negotiators of our Constitution were able to reach across and find each other across a much wider divide than the one we have in this House today.

Yet, two decades later, we are struggling to find ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, allow the member to speak.

Lower your voices.

All members must be heard.

Please lower your voices.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 78 of 239 The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: ...

[Inaudible.]

... No, no, no, we have lost some time.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no.


Hon Maimane, no.

Don’t get involved in that.

[Interjections.]

Proceed, hon member.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: No, I am waiting for the time ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon member.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Yet, two decades later, we struggle to find common ground in the interests of all South Africans - and it is because we are constantly distracted by one man.
Indeed, the only time we ever talk about our Constitution in this House is when we debate how our President has violated it.

Surely, it is not right?

And today, we have an opportunity to say to the people of South Africa that you, the people, matter more than the politicians.
Today, we have a chance to show that as Team South Africa, we all want what’s best for South Africa - a South Africa free from poverty; a South Africa free from unemployment; a South Africa that works; a country that treats its job creators as heroes; a country that says to the world that we are open for business; 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 79 of 239 and a country that says to the unemployed that they have a future and hope.
We have a chance to build a South Africa based on fairness and justice - a country where the innocent are protected; a country where powerful people who abuse their power face the consequences.

[Interjections.]

You see, we are Team South Africa.

Hon Deputy Speaker ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

Order, hon members!

Let’s proceed.

Proceed, hon member.

[Interjections.]

Go ahead.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: But, hon members, there is one man who stands between us and this destiny.
There is one man who holds us back from fulfilling the dreams of our people.

I think you all know who that man is, because many of you have been speaking out against him.

[Interjections.]

We agree with Ntate Motshekga, who said that the ANC leadership must choose between the President and the ANC, on one hand, and the people of South Africa, on the other hand.
Bab’uMthembu, I agree with you uma uthi [when you said] you, as the national 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 80 of 239 executive committee, NEC, should step down, given that you had messed up and that all these things had happened on your watch.

[Interjections.]

The hon Hanekom was absolutely correct when he said, “Enough is enough.

Clean-up time.

We love our country.” [Applause.]


The hon Motsoaledi made an excellent point when he said: “It’s not because it’s Pravin, but because I don’t believe this should happen to anybody.” [Applause.]

And of course, the hon Nxesi, uthetha inyaniso xausithi [he spoke the truth when he said], “We must deal with corruption, whether it’s by a politician or public servant.” It is not that often that we agree in this House.
Today, we have a chance to make this agreement work for our country because together, we can bring an end to this destructive chapter in our history.

Together, we can fulfil the role of this House, which is to hold the executive to account.

I know that there are men and women in the ANC benches who want to do the right thing today.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

If you allow yourselves to be guided by your conscience and do your duty to your country, we can achieve something great in this House.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 81 of 239 I am asking you to take South Africa’s side today.

Whatever you choose, history will remember you for that choice.

If you choose Mr Jacob Zuma ahead of your country, you will have to live with the consequences of your decision.

A vote against this motion is a vote for state capture.

It is a vote for corruption.

It is a vote for theft.

It is a vote for power abuse.

[Applause.]


Ask yourself today, Will your conscience allow you to inflict another three years of Mr Zuma on our country?

Since he came into office, 2,2 million more South Africans have joined the ranks of the unemployed.

Our country’s debt now stands at almost 50% of our GDP, with our debt repayment the fastest growing line item in our Budget.

As we sit here today, our economy is hurtling towards junk status.

Expressing support for the President today will seal our fate.
Hon members, fellow South Africans, what we need today is the best possible leadership available as we head into turbulent days.

And I want to ask everybody in this House today, let us not think of ourselves as members of a particular party or as politicians, but as South Africans.

[Interjections.]

Let us put South Africa first.

You see, too often, we think of ourselves in 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 82 of 239 this House as yellow, red, or blue, but all of those colours are together in our rainbow flag.
[Interjections.]

We can put the flag first today.

[Interjections.]

We must put South Africa first.

Let us do this vote for the unemployed, the marginalised, and the downtrodden.

Let us rise above our differences and put the people of this country first.

I so ask you!

Thank you very much.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister of Water and Sanitation?

Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Singh?

Hon Minister, please take your seat.


[Interjections.]

Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, it seems the only way you get recognised here is if you stand because if you put your hand up for a point of order, you don’t get recognised.

So, I had to stand.

I rise in terms of Rule 65, before the next speaker comes on.

Hon Deputy Speaker, all of us are allowed to express ourselves 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 83 of 239 in this House through the vote - through the ballot.
Now, each one of us, as political parties, has speakers assigned to participate in the debate.

But when the hon Leader of the Opposition was speaking, we had members on this side of the House - at the back here - participating in the debate, when you have two ANC speakers assigned to participate in this debate.

What they did a few minutes ago will happen from this side or the other side, later on.
So, please, Deputy Speaker, make sure you control this House in such a way that all of us get an opportunity to hear the speakers and hear their points of view.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Singh, you are right.

Only you, as hon members, can accept the rulings of the Chair.

If you ignore them, those are the consequences.

The House will become disruptive and disorderly.

Let’s obey the Rules of the House and not do so selectively.

Go ahead, hon Minister.


The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: Thank you very much.

Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, hon members of the House, and fellow South Africans, we are here, again, to bear witness to the desperate attempts of the DA and its allies to undermine the 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 84 of 239 will of the people and attempt to distort what the Constitution dictates.

Just three months ago, on 3 August, the people of South Africa expressed their will without fear or favour.
This they did through a free and fair democratic process, in which all parties were afforded an opportunity to contest an election.

The ANC is amongst the many in South Africa that accepted the will of the people, and to date, the DA and its allies are presiding over some of our municipalities that were previously led by the ANC.

As true democrats and pioneers of constitutional democracy in South Africa, we have listened and we have heard our people.
We are also self-correcting and repositioning the ANC as a development-driven opposition in such municipalities.

[Applause.]

It will never be our intention to undermine the letter and spirit of our Constitution and the will of the people, as expressed through the ballot, despite there being no outright majority winner.

We have moved on.

[Interjections.]

You, listen!

You will be a better person.

[Interjections.]

In 2014, more than 11 million South Africans voted for the ANC.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 85 of 239 Re beile sefatlhego sa ga Moporesidente Jacob Zuma mo balotong.

Re itsise batho ba Aforika Borwa gore ke ANC fela e e nang le maikarabelo a go tlhabolola matshelo a bona.

Se se diragetseng ke gore dimilione tsa batho ba rona mo nageng, ba re neetse tšhono gape ya gore re tsweletse pele tlhabololo, ntwa ya lehuma le tlhokego ya ditiro mo nageng ya rona go tloga ka 2014.

(Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)


[We put the face of President Jacob Zuma on the ballot paper.

We made the people of South Africa aware that it is only the ANC that has the responsibility to change their lives.

What has happened is that millions of people in our country have given us another opportunity to continue with the development and with the fight against poverty and unemployment in our country since 2014.]
Ngoba sihlezi la namhlanje kuleNdlu ephakeme siyawabona futhi amaqhinga abanomgogwana abacabanga ukuthi bazoqhubeka bangawuhloniphi uMthethosisekelo wala eNingizimu Afrika.

NguMthethosisekelo opha igunya lokuthi omunye nomunye umuntu unelungelo lokuthi alalelwe enkantolo, icala lakhe lilalelwe.

Phambi kokuthi agwetshwe wonke umuntu umsulwa.


Sihlezi la namuhla kuyo leNdlu ephakeme sinaye umhlonishwa u-Glynnis Breytenbach ngala, oyiLungu lePhalamende onguumangalelwa 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 86 of 239 ngokukhwabanisa, ongumangalelwa ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[As we are seated here in this august House, we are aware of the tricks of old dames who think that they will continue disrespecting the South African Constitution.
It is the Constitution that gives each and every person an opportunity to be heard in court, for their case to be heard.

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

We are seated here in this august House with the hon Glynnis Breytenbach on this side, a Member of Parliament who is accused of fraud, who is accused ...] ... of being involved in criminal offences as she was a prosecutor in the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA.

[Interjections.]

As the ANC ...


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, may I address you in terms of Rule 85(2)?

If the hon Mokonyane wishes to level accusations against the hon Breytenbach ...

[Interjections.]

... then she must do what we have done today and bring a substantive motion to the House for debate.

Otherwise, she is in contravention of those provisions of the Rules and I will ask that she withdraws that.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 87 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead.

We will call on you now.

The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: The ANC has never cast aspersions or doubts on the integrity of the NPA, even with the serious allegations that have led to the fraud charges that the hon Breytenbach faces today.

This is because the conduct of the individual cannot bring us to undermine the integrity of the institution.
The motion we are debating here today is really a phantom to masquerade the essence and nature of opposition politics in our country and their quest to gain power by means other than the ballot box, using a black face to protect the interests of the white minority.

[Applause.]

[Interjections.]

The DA and its allies continuously present ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, we have had several rulings in the House about racial stereotyping and race baiting.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

I would ask that the Minister withdraws her reference to Mr Maimane as “black face”.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: We all agree to matters of debate in this House ... any matters of debate that have not been ruled to be racist 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 88 of 239 or unparliamentary.

This matter that the hon Mokonyane is raising has no reference to any racism.

It’s a matter of debate.

[Interjections.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, it was very clear that the Minister was implying ...

If you check the Hansard, you will see for yourself ...

[Interjections.]

... that Mr Maimane is being used by people of another race to get the message here ...

[Interjections.]

... that both casts aspersions on Mr Maimane as an hon member of this House and uses race to profile somebody.
So, if the ANC wants to say that it’s open season now on racial profiling in the House, I think it’s a very sad day for this House and for democracy.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Hon members, I want to implore — including in the debate — that we be careful of the language we use.

As suggested, I will look at the Hansard and, in fact, rule on that matter.

Let’s proceed, hon members.

Hon Minister, please proceed.


The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: The DA and its allies continuously ... 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 89 of 239 Mr A M MUDAU: Order, Chairperson!

Chairperson, on a point of order: As members of the ANC, we are tired of being given these letters by the DA.

Please, they must stop doing this in the House.

[Interjections.]

If I can give it to you ... because this will create a problem for us.
They have given it to all of us, as members ... and the members also assist them in giving us these letters.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, give it to the Table, hon member.

We don’t know what it is about.

Explain to the ...

[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, we want to confirm what the hon member is raising: That the DA is sending letters to all members of the ANC to vote in a particular way in this debate.

I have one too.

[Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members!

[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, when we rise in the House, we rise in terms of the Rules of the National Assembly.

[Interjections.]

I would like the hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party to point to the Rule which states it is unparliamentary to send letters.

I received a particularly nasty letter from Minister Davies ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

... two days 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 90 of 239 ago and you don’t see me being a crybaby and raising it in the House.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please proceed.

[Interjections.]

Hon members, alright.

Order, order!

Let the Minister proceed and speak.

Proceed, hon Minister.


The MINISTER OF WATER AND SANITATION: The DA and its allies continuously present motions and issues before this House that seek to undermine our commitment to realising radical economic transformation and the creation of a social order that would benefit the majority of our people.

They are trying hard to distract the ANC and the government, led by President Zuma, from dealing with the challenges of poverty, unemployment, and inequality.
This motion against President Zuma, in whichever way it may be put, seeks to have us ignore the fact that the majority remain without access to land and remain spectators in an economy largely controlled by a minority elite that is opposed to transformation, masquerading and led by a black face.

Those elitist forces emerge, as led by the DA, to advance a protracted onslaught against the President and government, on 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 91 of 239 speculations and unfounded sentiments.
This is manifested in the DA’s ideological drive that aims to keep intact the apartheid economic patterns.

This is a glaring misrepresentation of facts and a total disregard of reality.

Firstly, since coming into office, President Zuma, together with the leaders of the ANC present here, appointed the former Public Protector following due process, as per the Constitution.

Secondly, during his tenure, President Zuma has appointed commissions whose recommendations he has taken into consideration.
The Seriti Commission, the Farlam Commission, and the Heher Commission, amongst others, are the prominent ones.

Thirdly, under his leadership, President Zuma has signed 69 proclamations authorising the Special Investigating Unit to undertake investigations intended to rid the state of corruption where it exists and to verify allegations of such where they arise.
Just in the last financial year alone, the value of the 307 matters that have been referred to the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, for prosecution and the Asset Forfeiture Unit for forfeiture orders is R6,8 billion.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 92 of 239 It is this ANC-led government that uses the correct systems to deal with corruption and to deal with maladministration where it arises.

[Applause.]

[Interjections.]


The state, by its very nature, engages, lobbies, and is lobbied by civil society, business, and nongovernmental organisations in the course of its daily functions.

Remember the visit and the receiving of a cheque by Madam Zille just a few months ago?

However, it is precisely because the ANC, under the leadership of President Zuma, has taken the battle for the economic emancipation of our people to higher levels, both locally and globally, that we are under such attack.
Our radical economic transformation agenda has struck a nerve with the majority of those who came to benefit from the creation of the apartheid economic system and the global economic domination of those who have continued to exploit our resources.

Any reference to state capture must have reference to the historical promotion of monopoly capital and the enrichment of individuals and a few established companies that, to date, unashamedly continue to be the dominant beneficiaries of state investments.
For example, Eskom spends R40 billion on coal, annually, largely on four companies that have owned these 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 93 of 239 companies for between 20 and 40 years.

Just listen!

These contracts will come to an end only in 2020, and as I have indicated, only four companies remain beneficiaries of this.

Many owners of these contracts do not live in South Africa.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Those who have been benefiting continue to do so and are defending their ill-gotten gains at all costs and using their ownership of the means of production and some sections of the media to sow confusion.

The DA is an unsatisfied complainant through its ill-conceived motions that seek not to undermine the binding effect of the remedial action proposed by the Public Protector.
In our quest to realise the objectives of socioeconomic transformation, under President Zuma, we have entered into binational and multinational agreements in an endeavour to grow the economy, create jobs, and close gaps of inequality.

The initiative, InvestSA, led by government, the private sector, and organised labour, continues to promote our economic fortunes, aimed at steering the country out of the troubled, global economic waters.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 94 of 239 It should also be mentioned that our fiscal imperatives are in full swing.

Over the past two financial years, the SA Revenue Service, Sars, has collected above the target, despite the prevailing, difficult, economic climate.

Actual collections in 2014-15 were R986,3 billion.

This surpassed the target by R7 billion.

In 2015-16, the actual collection brought in historic revenue of R1,7 trillion, thus helping reduce the national deficit under extreme economic challenges.
The 2016-17 printed Estimates, as announced by Minister of Finance Pravin Gordhan during his mid-term Budget, are R1,152 trillion, and all projections are that Sars will collect and meet this target, despite the real gross domestic product, GDP, growth set at 0,5%.

For Sars to achieve this milestone, it must perform above 7% GDP growth.
When we voted for President Zuma in this House, the ANC came with a mandate that, firstly, the president of the ANC shall be the President of the country, as was also reflected on the ballot paper - it has never been a secret- and secondly, that the country would require a long-term plan and a vision of where we want to take South Africa.

Under President Zuma, and together with the people of South Africa, we now have a National Development Plan.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 95 of 239 During his tenure, the ANC has had to make drastic interventions in the areas of HIV and Aids, particularly on the availability and access to treatment.

We are rolling out comprehensive social security programmes that have reduced the mortality rate in our country and mitigated the vulnerability of the poor, marginalised, and indigent.
Over a trillion rand has been invested by government on social and economic infrastructure to promote economic opportunities and to facilitate economic growth and social progression now, during the fifth term of our administration.

What is unfortunate, though, is that the DA and its allies know very well that this motion is ill-conceived and bound to fail, and have only raised it to denigrate and undermine the person and dignity of President Zuma.
Contrary to the opinion of those who are opposed to the ANC, we are convinced that, as Thomas Carlyle, British historian and essayist, said: “Nothing builds self-esteem and self-confidence like accomplishment.” Despite all the pantomimes and sideshows by the DA, President Zuma is focused on accomplishments that can only help grow the economy.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 96 of 239 As the ANC, we are saying to President Zuma that the world will never appreciate the good you do a million times but will criticise the one wrong you do.

[Interjections.]

Don’t get discouraged.

[Interjections.]

Always rise above all the laughter and criticism.


The ANC is not an organisation that claims to be pure, but it is through our continuous efforts to remain true to the values and principles of the ANC that we remain much more focused and loyal to the Constitution.

Being the pioneers of the Constitution, no- one can dare challenge our commitment to that.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

As President Nelson Mandela said, “I am not a saint, unless you think of a saint as a sinner who keeps on trying.” We will keep on trying because ours has never been a struggle for a period of 22 years.

It is a protracted struggle that requires capable men and women to remember that the struggle continues.

The ANC is ready to vote.

Others fear our unity and steadfast commitment to the people of South Africa.

We are never shaken.

We will vote.

We will oppose this motion.


We will bring change in this country, not through partnerships with opponents of transformation in our country but together with our people.

We 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 97 of 239 have listened to them.

We have heard them.

We are on a path of self-correction and renewal of the ANC, and we shall remain with them.

Dankie.

Ngiyabonga.

[Thank you.]

[Applause.]


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I would like to address you, please, because I think it is a very serious matter and it is not a new one in the National Assembly.

If one looks at the Procedural Developments in the National Assembly, item 6 on page 4, it speaks very carefully and clearly about the use of racial epithets in this House and that they should be avoided at all costs.
I would like to quote from it because I think it’s important that we understand that today.

It’s that racist terms, even when used in a historical context, should be avoided: It is incumbent on members actively to take the lead to rid our society of its racist heritage ... when participating in debates in the House, members have a unique opportunity actively to inculcate and promote the values of tolerance, diversity and inclusivity, and they should be setting standards in that regard.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 98 of 239 I would submit to you that the use of the term “black face” by the hon Mokonyane is a serious transgression ...

[Interjections.]

... and I would really implore that we are going to get a ruling by the end of this debate, at least, because I would hate for us to roll over into tomorrow without that having been addressed and dealt with.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, you know the Rules ... Mr B M MKONGI: Order, Chairperson!

Order, Deputy Speaker!


May I ask a question?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what are you rising on?

Mr B M MKONGI: Are referrals to black, white, coloured, and Indian not in the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright, hon member, allow me to make a ruling at the appropriate time.

Hon Steenhuisen, I will do that at the appropriate time.

Go ahead, hon Shivambu.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, it is so disheartening to speak after people who sing for their supper like the one who just left this podium now - a person who sings for his supper 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 99 of 239 and who must be signed by Mabala Noise Entertainment, for obvious reasons, and be one of the top acts at the Saxonwold shebeen.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The reason Africa is referred to as the Dark Continent is that we have postcolonial disasters; imposters; thugs; criminals who, by coincidence, accident, or design, find themselves occupying the highest political office in their land.
These include Obiang Mbasogo of Equatorial Guinea, Paul Biya of Cameroon, Blaise Compaoré of Burkina Faso, General Sani Abacha of Nigeria, José Eduardo dos Santos of Angola, Idi Amin Dada of Uganda, Mobutu Sese Seko of a country he named Zaire, and unfortunately, Mr Jacob Zuma of a country he will soon name Gupta-land.
Some of the common features or traits of these people that destroy the postcolonial state are that they seek to enrich their families; they seek to undermine the rule of law; they have no regard for the Constitution; and they prosecute and persecute political opponents, including opponents of the political parties they come from.

[Interjections.]

They fight in that particular format.

When everything else has failed, they kill.

They assassinate their opponents.


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 100 of 239 That is what we are faced with here in South Africa – a political, postcolonial disaster called Mr Jacob Zuma.

[Interjections.]

That is why we, as the EFF, stand to say that we must act in unison at every opportunity that arises to get rid of such postcolonial disasters.

We think that there is a technical blunder in the manner in which the motion has been put forward.
We believe that the liberation movement itself should have been convicted by its own conscience to act against a Mr Jacob Zuma where he has abdicated his responsibility as the leader of our country and given it to a family.

[Interjections.]

It is a matter of fact.

It is common cause that some of the Ministers who serve in Cabinet here were appointed upon the instruction of the Gupta family.

Minister Zwane was appointed by the Guptas.

[Interjections.]

They worked with him in the Free State.


That is why he went with them immediately after his appointment to negotiate a deal in Switzerland.

Mr Van Rooyen was appointed by the Gupta family.

That is why they took him through corruption induction for seven days and seven nights, prior to his appointment.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 101 of 239 That is what we are dealing with.
And then you stand here and say we must still defend a President who has been found by the Constitutional Court to have failed to uphold, defend, and protect the Constitution.

[Interjections.]

What are we dealing with here?

We are calling on you to get your own platforms.

[Interjections.]

You might win the vote today because you must vote according to what Gwede Mantashe has said, but create your own platforms to remove the postcolonial disaster that is facing South Africa.
Because before you know it, he will have captured everything.

[Interjections.]

After he has dealt with everyone else, he is going to arrest all of you.

He is going to lock you up.

He is going to kill you.

[Interjections.]

That is the reality of the situation.

He knows that he has nothing to lose now.

He knows that if he does not have control of political power, he will be going to prison.

[Inaudible.]

[Interjections.]

We are going to bring Jacob Zuma down.


Whether it is through political action or through ...

[Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

... Jacob Zuma is going to fall.

Thank you very much.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 102 of 239 The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, Rule 85(2) states that if a member wants to bring anything to the House, it must be substantiated.

The hon Shivambu makes serious allegations about the appointments of Ministers.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

We know that these matters are in the report that is still to be further investigated by the commission of inquiry.

So, he must substantiate what he was saying, with regard to the Ministers.

[Interjections.]

The other issue that he raised is that the President has nothing to lose, so, right now, he will be able to kill his opponents.

That is unparliamentary and he must substantiate that, as well.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I wish to point out to you and perhaps, the Deputy Chief Whip, if she was not aware, that this actually is a substantive motion and it is on the Order Paper as such!

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let me point out to you that Rule 1 provides that a substantive motion with reference to a member or holder of an office specified in Rule 88 means a self- contained proposal in terms of Rule 85 and Rule 88 for separate 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 103 of 239 consideration by the House, relating to any charge against that member or office bearer.
Rules 85 and 88 require that a member who wishes to bring any improper, unethical conduct on the part of a member, or specified office bearer, to the attention of the House may do so by way of a separate motion comprising a clearly formulated and properly substantiated charge that, in the opinion of the Speaker, prima facie warrants consideration by the House.
Hon members, a motion of no confidence, in terms of section 102 of the Constitution, is not a substantive motion, as defined and provided for in the Rules.

It does not require a clearly formulated and properly substantiated charge, but may be brought on political grounds.

A motion in terms of section 89 of the Constitution, on the other hand, is a substantive motion, since it must comprise a clearly formulated and properly substantiated charge, as provided for in section 89(1).
Hon members, therefore, the unparliamentary reference that the hon Shivambu referred to is incorrect and, therefore, falls foul of the Rules, and we suggest that he withdraws that.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 104 of 239 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker ... Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, let me assure you that I am not going to withdraw the truth here.

It is not going to happen.

It is never going to happen.


I am not going to withdraw the truth that the Gupta family, working with Jacob Zuma, has appointed Zwane and Van Rooyen.

It is a matter of fact.

[Interjections.]

I cannot withdraw that particular reality.

And it is a reality that we are living under the growing dictatorship of Jacob Zuma – it’s a fact!

- who is seeking to enrich himself and his family.

It is a fact.

There is no need to withdraw that.

I will never withdraw.

It will never happen.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you further said - and I heard you say - that the President is going to kill you.

That is imputing a motive to a Member of Parliament.

You have to withdraw that.

[Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I repeat that all dictators, after they steal government money and enrich their families, fight against their opponents.

Their last option is to kill their opponents.


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 105 of 239 As a matter of fact, that is where it is going.

What kind of a President charges his own Ministers through wrong procedures?

That is where he is going.

[Interjections.]

Jacob Zuma is going to kill all of you who think that you are on his side now.

You are going to vote for him today, but in the future, he is going to kill all of you.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are repeating this, despite a request from the presiding officer not to do so.

I regard this as a serious violation and I will refer this for appropriate dealing with in the House.

Mr F MOKOENA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: We cannot curtail debate in this House through these spurious things that you are naming here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no.

Mr F MOKOENA: Firstly, we have a right to debate in this House.
If you are referring to this thing of making a substantive motion, a substantive motion was made in this House to discuss state capture about three weeks ago.

These things were discussed in that substantive motion.

What other substantive motion are you looking for?

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 106 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, no.

No.

Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

No.

No, no, no, don’t shout at me.

Take your seat.

I have recognised a member.


I will come back to you.

[Interjections.]

Hon members, I recognised someone else.

Take your seat.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chair, on a point of order: I am trying to help you, Chair.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, take your seat.

I have not invited your help.

Wait a minute.

You will get your chance.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, with respect, I want to take issue with your ruling that this is not a substantive motion.
It most certainly is a substantive motion.

[Interjections.]

It would be virtually impossible to discuss the removal of the President of the Republic of South Africa if we were not allowed to discuss the reasons why we wish to remove him.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 107 of 239 That is why we were required to substantiate it and why there was significant intervention by your Office to amend wording, etc, to make sure that it was in compliance.
It would make a farce of this whole debate if it were not regarded as a substantive motion, because we could not put the charges, in which we feel the President needs to be removed, if it was any other way.

I would really ask that you take advice from the Table on this matter.

With respect, I believe you are wrong.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I have not ... Hey, hey!

[Laughter.]

You keep quiet.

Please, don’t misbehave.

No, no, no!

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, I thought it was my turn!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

Order!

Mr G S RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The hon member at the back there continues to undermine your ruling.

All of us must rise on a point of order in terms of the Rule Book.

Can you please condemn his behaviour?

[Interjections.]

This is not Generations.

We are not acting here.

Go to Rule 161.

Please, sit down, chief.

[Interjections.]


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 108 of 239 Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, I respectfully submit that the hon Shivambu may have been speaking metaphorically.

Thank you.

[Interjections.]

Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, in accordance with Rule 92(c): You have made a ruling and therefore, no points of order must be raised on a ruling that you have already made.
That relates to the question as to whether there is a need for any substantive motions on what was mentioned by the hon Shivambu.

[Interjections.]

What is being alluded to is that we have a motion, which is a substantive motion, but if there is anything additional that you need to add, that needs to be made in a form of a substantive motion.

I therefore suggest that we continue.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We will proceed on the basis that ... Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Please recognise us.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s that?

Mr M M DLAMINI: Because you’ve allowed ... 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 109 of 239 ... phela asiwuvalanga umlomo ukuthi izidakwa zikhulume.

[We didn’t stop talking to allow the drunkards to speak.]

You must recognise us as well.

Whatever these people are saying, our deputy president is not withdrawing anything.

That is a fact.
That is a fact.

It is not going to happen.

So, let us continue.

Don’t waste time here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order.

Take your seat.

Hon members, in the interest of the debate, I want to suggest we proceed.

We will act on the rulings we have made.


Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, Your Excellency, our Deputy President, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, and hon members, Ex Unitate Vires was the motto of South Africa’s coat of arms in the past era, which was a contradiction, because people were divided.

A house divided cannot stand.

It really distresses me that we are so unnecessarily disagreeable and acrimonious.

We can just disagree but not be so acrimonious.


We have seen the evidence of fallen dynasties and fallen empires.

Must we watch it happen to Africa’s oldest liberation 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 110 of 239 movement?

This is no longer about the voice of the opposition, or NGOs, or academics, or religious leaders.

The cry for the President to step down is echoing from all corners of the country.
It’s on the lips of stalwarts of the ANC, spoken from the heart of men and women who liberated our country, pledging their lives to a noble cause.

I worked with these men and women as we struggled for freedom.

They are veterans of the ANC, who have never abandoned their cause or their party.

Many have held high office, as Ministers and members of the NEC.

To brush aside their concerns for their party and for our country is an act of unimaginable obstinacy.

The President will not listen to any advice.


How could he when he trivialised the advice of his comrade who worked with him during the struggle, His Excellency former President Mbeki?

The President would not heed the Public Protector.

He wouldn’t look at the warning signs from the economy, or the message from the ballot box.

He will not, as the secretary general of the ANC avers, listen to his own conscience, for that has long been silenced under the cajoling hurrahs of his inner circle.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 111 of 239 Thus, a movement that has stood for 104 years is crumbling, and it is taking South Africa with it.

All this for the sake of one man!

I do not want to see my country destroyed.

Neither do I wish to see the ANC crumble.

It’s the party of my youth, started by my own uncle, Dr Pixley ka Seme.

It’s the party of my mentor, Inkosi Albert Luthuli, and of stalwarts with whom I worked for decades, including Mr Mandela and Mr Tambo.
If the ANC is destroyed because of the obduracy of a few people, our entire continent will suffer a blow.

Our history, our legacy, all that we fought for, will be reduced to a lesson on the ravages of corruption.

I know that this debate may be a futile exercise.

We have voted on this matter before.

We are just going through the motions.

We all know that nothing will happen as long as the ANC is the ruling party.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shenge, your time has expired.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 112 of 239 Prince M G BUTHELEZI: However, the IFP will do what is principally right.

We support this motion, for we have no confidence in the President’s moral leadership.

As Martin Luther said, “Here I stand, I can do no other.” [Applause.]

Mr S C MOTAU: Hon Deputy Speaker and members, let me be blunt.

Mr Jacob Zuma should never have become the President of South Africa.

[Applause.]

His scandal-infested, terrible track record since he took office speaks volumes in this regard.
Electing him was a grave, costly mistake on the part of those who voted him into office - not once, but twice.

History will judge you harshly.

The State of Capture report by the former Public Protector, Thuli Madonsela, which was released to the public following strong pressure from the DA, and others, confirms that President Jacob Zuma and the Guptas head up a public-private partnership that has been stealing billions of rand from the national purse.
This is money that is sorely needed to fight poverty and reduce unemployment.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 113 of 239 Let us be clear about what we are talking about here: unadulterated corruption, fraud, and theft on a grand scale.

When politicians and state institutions, like the National Prosecution Authority, NPA, and the Hawks, are reduced to mere puppets to do the bidding of the President and the Guptas, his captors, corrosive state capture is at work.

Its consequences can be devastating.


For example, the recent malicious and ill- considered decision by the National Director of Public Prosecutions, Shaun Abrahams, to charge Finance Minister, Pravin Gordhan, cost the South African economy about R50 billion in 24 hours.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Recently, during a talk on ethical leadership at the Gordon Institute of Business Science, GIBS, the business school in Johannesburg, Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng said this: “Ethical leadership leaves no room for corruption.
Ethical leadership leaves no room for the manipulation of politicians by the corporate world.” Chief Justice Mogoeng did not name anyone when he made these remarks, but it must have been quite clear to his audience that he could have been talking about President Zuma.

This is a President who has yet to man up and answer to 783 charges of fraud and corruption.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 114 of 239 This is a President who has been found by the Constitutional Court to have violated the Constitution and his Oath of Office with regard to the costly, nonsecurity upgrades at his homestead in Nkandla.

This is a President who fired a competent and dedicated Minister of Finance - Nhlanhla Nene - and told the nation and the world that Nene would be taking up a high position at the Brics bank.

This has turned out to be untrue.


Many would say President Zuma lied to this House and to the nation.

This is a President who told the nation with a straight face that former Public Protector, Thuli Madonsela, had not given him a chance to respond to the allegations against him in the State of Capture report.

This has turned out to be untrue.

He was given an opportunity to respond.

Many would say that the President has lied to the nation again.

Where is ethical leadership, Mr President?


Where is integrity?

It has become very hard these days to believe anything or trust anything that President Zuma says.

The President, like a wrecking ball, has wreaked havoc on our fledgling democracy, costing us billions of rand in the national 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 115 of 239 wealth, and causing this country to regress, to go backwards at the expense of nearly 9 million jobless and poor South Africans.
Let me revert to what Chief Justice Mogoeng has said: “If ever there was a time to embrace ...” Thank you.

[Time expired.]

[Applause.]

Mr M S MABIKA: Deputy Speaker, during the past 22 years, the ANC has given South Africa three of their best.

First was uTata Madiba.

He brought to the Office of the President an endearing quality which our nation so desperately needed at the time - dignity and hope.

He served his country well, setting a high standard for those to follow.
Then the ANC gave us former President Mbeki, an economist.

He brought with him an unmatched political energy and a vision of a prosperous South Africa to the Office.

He served his country with diligence and passion.

And then came the infamous weekend in Polokwane, when the ANC gave us the current President, a freedom fighter, and former chief of intelligence.
His rise to power was through songs glorifying violence, extending patronage, and threats of violence by his puppets, who chanted that they would kill for Zuma.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 116 of 239 His ruthless capture of the ANC was the frontrunner of the ruthless way in which he was to capture the country, and he brought with him to the highest office scandal, corruption, controversy, dishonesty, and the Guptas.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: I don’t think it is parliamentary for the member out there to insult our member by saying he is speaking nonsense.

I don’t think it is in order.

I think you should call the member to order.

[Interjections.]

It is the hon Sisulu.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please proceed.

Hon members, please mind your language.

We haven’t ruled that as unparliamentary.


“Nonsense” is ... Mr M S MABIKA: Deputy Speaker, it is under the watch of President Zuma that we have seen our economy on the verge of collapse.

He is lacking in political vision, and he has failed to surround himself with qualified and experienced people who could direct government towards the constitutional standards of transparency and accountability.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 117 of 239 Mr G S RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ... Mr M S MABIKA: Through his lack of moral leadership ... Mr G S RADEBE: Point of order!

[Interjections.]

Mr M S MABIKA: ... he has created a fertile breeding ground for corruption to flourish.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, do not disrupt the member speaking, please.

Hon member!
Hon member!

Mr M S MABIKA: It is under the watch of President Zuma that we have seen our Public Protector being humiliated and our Constitution violated.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.

What are you rising on, hon member?

Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I was asking whether the hon member would take a question.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, would you take a question?
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 118 of 239 Mr M S MABIKA: Only if it is about removing Zuma, yes.

Otherwise, I will be able to take it after my speech.

[Interjections.]

Mr G S RADEBE: It is correct, hon Deputy Speaker.

I wanted to ask that, since he has a passion to remove President Zuma, why was he not fired for not paying money for elections?

His party didn’t register for the elections.

[Interjections.]

Why is he still there?

Unless they are still plotting to take away ...

[Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.

You have asked your question.

Go ahead, hon member.

Mr M S MABIKA: Alright, he is crazy about Zuma.

It is under the watch of Zuma that he has humiliated the Public Protector ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, use the correct way of addressing members of Parliament, including the President when he is not here.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 119 of 239 Mr M S MABIKA: Alright.
It is under the watch of President Zuma that the state was captured with impunity by the Gupta family, enriching his close family members and loyal henchmen within the ANC.

It is under his watch that we have seen the highest office being stripped of dignity and respect and the legacy of uTata Madiba come crashing down.

Today, the NFP says President Zuma has lost the confidence, not only of members of opposition parties in the House, but also of ANC members, and South Africans at large.
The recent brutal repression of our students who are crying out for free quality education and the frantic attempts to capture the Treasury have only added injury to insult.

But it is the release of the former Public Protector’s report on state capture which is the final nail in the coffin of our confidence.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.

Mnu M S MABIKA: Sithi siyi-NFP, sekwanele.

Songeza izwi lethu ukuthi akahambe uZuma ayophumula eNkandla yakhe enimakhele yona nina.
[Ubuwelewele.]

[Ihlombe.]

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 120 of 239 [Mr M S MABIKA: As the NFP, we are saying it is enough.

We are adding our voice to say that Zuma must go and rest at Nkandla, which you built for him yourselves.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]]


Mr B H HOLOMISA: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, and hon members, two weeks ago, the President misled the nation during the NCOP Question Session, when he claimed that he was never given an opportunity to present his side of the story by the Public Protector.

We now know, with evidence in our hands, that this is contrary to the facts, as they are also confirmed by the audio version of the report.
In normal democracies, this is an act of perjury and punishable through impeachment.

Many South Africans have long lost confidence in the leadership of this monumentally flawed President.

We also heard - from amongst others, the mouth of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party - that many branches of his party have also lost confidence in his leadership and are calling for his removal.
President Zuma, the ANC, and the world over must know that South Africans reject being led by an irreparably damaged leader.

However, the ruling clique on this side of the House is behaving 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 121 of 239 like wolves screaming in unison to defend one of theirs at the expense of the country.

[Interjections.]

They are showing South Africans the middle finger.

Look at them: They are jumping from their seats like popcorn!

[Laughter.]
[Laughter.]

More confusion is being created by the party’s secretary-general who, on the one hand, calls for his leader to follow his conscience – yet, on the other, his party members in this House are blocked from thinking.

Mr M A DIRKS: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: My point of order is that I cannot be called a wolf by a Bantustan general.

He must withdraw.

[Laughter.]

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order, hon member.

Go ahead, hon member.


Mr B H HOLOMISA: A Bantustan general who helped you to get where you are!

[Interjections.]

Mr M A DIRKS: You, Bantustan, no Bantustan!

We cannot withstand criminals here.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 122 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

Order, hon members!

Hon members, allow the member to ...

[Interjections.]

Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order, Chair ... Mr B H HOLOMISA: Qhubekeka kodwa ungatyi ixesha lam.

[Continue, but do not waste my time.]


Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chair, in 2009, a ruling was made that to refer to the members as animals is unparliamentary.

The Chair referred to things like dogs, monkeys, and mules.

So, as Members of Parliament, we cannot be referred to as wolves.

Can you rule on that, please?

Mr N L S KWANKWA: On a point of order, Chair ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Holomisa, please take your seat.

Mr B H HOLOMISA: No, don’t worry I can stand.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, the Rule states that you must sit, sir.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 123 of 239 Mr N L S KWANKWA: Could my leader be protected here?

The issue here is that he said, “like wolves”, which is a simile.

He did not call anyone a wolf here.

Ngoku kuza kufuneka sikhuphe nezifaniso ezi kwintetha yakhe kuba kaloku abantu abafuni ukumamela.

[Now, we have to remove the simile in his speech because people do not want to listen.]
Can you ask them to stop rising on frivolous points of order and allow us to conclude the debate?

Because that was a simile for you chaps.

He did not call anyone a wolf.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will rule on that.

Hon member, go ahead.

I will come back to that.


Mr B H HOLOMISA: More confusion is being created by the secretary-general of the ANC who, on the one hand, calls for his leader to follow his conscience – yet, on the other, his party members in this House are blocked from thinking.

It begs the question, How many, and to what extent, are the apex leaders of the ANC contaminated by the actions of their flawed leader?

This crisis is only equal to the collective conscience of all the citizens.
In this regard, the UDM calls on all citizens, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 124 of 239 irrespective of their political persuasions, not to abdicate their historic and fundamental civic responsibilities.

We must find a common point of convergence to defend our hard-won democracy.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Holomisa, your time has expired, sir.

Mr B H HOLOMISA: Ningxola njee maselandini.

Uyahamba uZuma, niyathanda anithandi.

[You are just making unnecessary noise, thieves.


Zuma is going, whether you like it or not.]

Mr M A DIRKS: Hey, you Bantustan general!

[Interjections.]

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chair, on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will rule on that.

Mr B A RADEBE: No, it is another point of order: I rise on Rule 82, Rule 84, and Rule 85.

That member has called us, on this side, thieves.

I think you must rule on that because there is no court here.
I have never been charged with anything like that in my life.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will rule on that, yes.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 125 of 239 Mr N L S KWANKWA: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker: The previous speaker did not make reference to any specific member of that party.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: They have called the DA and other parties racists million times before and no one was ever asked to withdraw that.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I am going to rule on this issue now.

Yes, hon member, what are you rising on?

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: There was a street kid in the House who called the hon Holomisa a “Bantustan general”.

That street kid must also withdraw that.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha, your story falls flat on its face.

There is no basis for you to call anybody “a street kid”.
Hon members, I am trying to preserve that we go through the debate.

These insults, which you are hurling at each other unnecessarily, create a delay that is unacceptable.

Let us 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 126 of 239 debate this matter.

I want this matter to be debated so that you close it properly.

We will rule on any problematic way of handling it.

Hon member, please go ahead.

Dr P W A MULDER: Deputy Speaker, what is stated in section 55 of the Constitution?
It states that the National Assembly, that is, each one of us sitting here, should exercise oversight over the way in which the national executive, that is, the President and Ministers, do their work.

Since the firing of Minister Nene, the President has been stumbling from one disaster to the next.

Nowhere in the world has another Minister of Finance been fired, a new hon Minister - Van Rooyen - appointed, just to be replaced four days later by another Minister, the hon Gordhan.
Nowhere in the world has another Minister of Finance been charged with fraud only to have the charges withdrawn a couple of weeks later.

While these games are being played, South Africa loses R50 billion.

Today, we also know that it is a lie that Minister Nene would have been promoted to the Brics bank.

What does the Constitution stipulate in section 96?
That the President and Ministers may not abuse their positions, or any information entrusted to them, to enrich themselves or 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 127 of 239 improperly benefit any other person.

From the State Capture report, I can find numerous examples of where this had happened.

Why does the FF Plus support this motion of no confidence?
Because we have evaluated the President’s actions lately; and because we searched our consciences and came to the conclusion that in the light of the Constitution’s directives to the National Assembly, we have no other choice but to support this motion.

This conclusion is not only that of the FF Plus or other opposition parties.

No.

It represents the view of an ever- increasing number of South African individuals and organisations.
The hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party came to the same type of conclusion.

The previous Chief Whip, the hon Motshekga, came to that type of conclusion.

The trade union, the National Education, Health and Allied Workers’ Union, Nehawu, and the Nelson Mandela Foundation came to that conclusion.

And 101 ANC stalwarts - and I have their names here - came to that conclusion.

Today, ANC members have the opportunity to search their consciences and also come to the right conclusion.
Remember, all 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 128 of 239 that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men and women do nothing.

A true leader or a president gets the co-operation of his supporters – and I’m a leader - by inspiring them, and not by intimidating them.

If the ANC also believes in that type of leadership, it will allow its members to vote in a secret ballot.

But the ANC members are intimidated and may therefore not vote in that secret ballot.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The FF Plus calls on all members to vote according to their conscience.

If the ANC members miss this opportunity, I predict it surely will become a - listen to me – protracted, painful process that will end in disaster for the President and in which the ANC itself will suffer ever more damage.

If ANC members, again, decide to ignore the facts on the table, they are not fulfilling their constitutional duties.
And take my word for it, history will judge them very harshly in a couple of years’ time from now.

I thank you.

[Applause.]

Mr M G P LEKOTA: [Interjections.]

Deputy Speaker, I would like to start off by saying that we will support the motion before the House.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 129 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, lower your voices.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: May I remind all of us that when we drew up the Constitution at Codesa, we said we wanted our country to be under constitutional rule and that it must comply with the rule of law?

We said that because up until that time, there had been no constitution for all the people of South Africa and as a result, there was no rule of law.
Firstly, the present Constitution makes it very clear that none of us in this House can ever become members of the House unless, according to section 48(1), we take an oath to be loyal to South Africa and to uphold the Constitution.

[Interjections.]

This is a primary condition.

No one can be a member of this House without taking that oath.

Secondly, it is we, as this collective, that are given the right under the Constitution to elect one of our number to occupy the office of President.
Only this National Assembly can do that.

That is according to section 86(1).

[Interjections.]

However, section 89(1) also gives only to this House - only this collective - the right to dismiss from the Office of President 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 130 of 239 the individual who is there if that individual commits a serious violation of the Constitution or the law.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Therefore, when the current President failed to uphold his oath of office, he committed a serious violation of the Constitution of our country.

All of us here must appreciate that.

If you don’t, let me remind you of something.

When President Mandela was called to appear before the court at the request of Dr Louis Luyt, there were many amongst us – and I was still part of the ANC – who were saying he must not go.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

However, President Mandela said that he could not be the one to provide an example of undermining or of violating the Constitution of our country after all the years he spent in jail.

I may not have spent many years in jail, but I did spend years in jail.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.

Mr M G P LEKOTA: I take pride in the leadership of the ANC, men and women, who went to jail and who taught me that - without undermining the Constitution of our country.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 131 of 239 We support this motion.

[Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, calls from concerned South Africans for President Zuma to resign have intensified this year, but the President has stubbornly refused to heed them.

Former President Thabo Mbeki wrote a letter to him, appealing to him to listen to his people and do the right thing, but the incumbent chose to reject this sound advice.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Last week, the Save South Africa Movement, consisting of patriotic and distinguished individuals, members of civil society, the clergy, and ANC veterans, also appealed to President Zuma to step down, but again, our stubborn President rejected their appeals.

Today, I want to appeal to the consciences of ANC Members of Parliament to do the right thing and put the interests of their country before those of President Zuma and his defenders.
I am appealing to them to support this motion to remove President Zuma from office.

The ACDP believes that our country desperately needs an ethical and principled leader of integrity who hates corruption.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 132 of 239 Yesterday, a pastor came to my office to ask me to read a prayer for South Africa in the House today, and I am going to do that.

This prayer was written by the secretary-general of the Evangelical Alliance of South Africa.
It reads as follows: Our God in heaven, we worship and adore You.

Hallowed be your Name in all the earth.

... We lament the failures of our leaders to live up to their calling to lead with integrity and justice as servants of the people.

... We repent from our tolerance of rampant corruption in our public institutions, and for allowing evil to triumph on our watch.

We pray for the removal of those in government who have made themselves instruments of evil and corruption.
... We pray for the swift removal of the State President from power, for disrespecting his Oath of Office and plunging our nation into crisis through his lack of ethical leadership.

... 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 133 of 239 [Interjections.]

We pray that you raise others who ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Meshoe, please take your seat.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I rise on Rule 84 and I do believe in the Bible, hon Meshoe, but I don’t think that it would be correct for you to want to label hon members as devils, using the Bible.

[Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, nowhere in the world is it allowed to disrupt prayer, please!

[Interjections.]

How can you do that?

Is this what the ANC has come to, disrupting a prayer?

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon Meshoe.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, President Zuma has defied and ridiculed South Africans from many different backgrounds, who love their country.

These include professionals, former Constitutional Court judges, former Presidents, academics, businesspeople, ANC leaders and veterans, and ordinary people, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 134 of 239 who are concerned about the damage his tainted and compromised image is doing to our country.
Therefore, we are appealing to his conscience to do the right thing and step down.

The ACDP believes that the time is now for President Zuma to step down and go back to Nkandla to look after his cattle, chickens, and livestock that he has not had time to look after because of his travels around the world.

Thank you.

[Applause.]


Mr M P GALO: Deputy Speaker, perhaps, before I enter into this debate, as per the motion tabled by the Leader of the Opposition, the AIC would like this House and the people of South Africa to go down memory lane in order to affirm that we have a leadership deficit in this country.

First and foremost, I will lift two comments from President Zuma’s inauguration speech in May 2009.
He said: One, for as long as there are communities without clean water, decent shelter, or proper sanitation; and two, for as long as there are people who are unable to find work, we shall not rest, and we dare not falter.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 135 of 239 Just over three years into his presidential tenure, he should be a worried man.
Hardly a day goes by without news reports about communities lacking decent housing or water and unemployed, young people taking to the streets over the lack of jobs and poor service delivery.

The people at Tembisa in the Themba Khoza squatter camp are living in appalling and dangerous conditions.

An extreme example of the prevailing hardship endured by the poorest of the poor people in this country was the shocking death of four children from Verdwaal in North West in November 2011.
The four Mmupele children, aged two, six, seven, and nine, died of hunger in the veld after they got lost searching for their mother, who had gone out looking for food.

Taking these two examples into account, can we say we have value-based leadership in this country?

The answer is, definitely, no.

For instance, if you look at President Zuma’s Cabinet, you may find that there are few people who are clean and without criminal records.
One of the Ministers is on record saying that they all have their little skeletons in the closet.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 136 of 239 Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary, in terms in terms of Rule 84, for the member to cast aspersions on members of the executive?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Galo, no, it is not correct.

You can’t say that about Members of Parliament.

You can’t do that.

Mr M P GALO: I withdraw, hon Deputy Speaker.


Coming to the motion, the AIC does not have a problem with the motion because it is not the first time this motion has been tabled in this House while President Zuma is still the President.

The AIC is of the view that only the ANC will recall President Zuma, and the ANC must do that before it is too late.

I thank you.

[Time expired.]

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, on behalf of Agang SA, we wholeheartedly support this motion.
President Zuma has turned our country and government into his personal property.

He uses his office to access state resources for his family and associates.

Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Speaker ... Hon Speaker ...

Sit down, hon Plouamma.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 137 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, don’t instruct members!

You have no right to do that.

Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for Plouamma to withdraw the motion but come and debate it?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is frivolous, hon member.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I would like to address you.

In terms of the Rules, there is a Rule that relates very clearly to the fact that members should not use points of order frivolously to disrupt speakers.

[Interjections.]

That was a classic example of somebody using a frivolous point of order.

It is bad enough that the Sunday Times has named him the Mampara of the Year.
I really think he does not need to come here and prove to himself and to us in the House every time that that is a fact.

Please.

It is the second time that he has made a point of order that has absolutely no relevance and he does it to disrupt opposition members.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead, hon Plouamma.

I have already ruled on that.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 138 of 239 Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I know for a fact that he is drunk.

[Laughter.]

[Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Plouamma, don’t complicate your life.

Withdraw.

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Thank you very much.

Hon Deputy Speaker ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, he must just withdraw “drunk”.

That’s all.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please!

I thought you did that.

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: I withdraw.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip ... ... nawe baba, ususukuma ukhulume nje ngingakukhombanga.
[... sir, you also now just stand and start talking without my recognising you.]

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the Zuma Presidency has lost its moral nadir.

It is now characterised by systemic theft, patronage, parasitism, and plunder.

It is of no use to keep this 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 139 of 239 false Messiah, who has become a corrupt monster.

President Zuma has become an ethnic entrepreneur, one of the dinosaur generations, like Eyadéma of Togo and Mengistu of Ethiopia.
This Presidency reflects general malice where the Guptas are like ...

[Interjections.]

Ms M C C PILANE–MAJAKE: Hon Deputy Speaker, in accordance with Rule 85, I want to plead with the member to present a speech without name-calling because it is just name-calling of members without actually presenting the facts.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order.

Can we please allow the member to proceed, please?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I would like to address you in terms of Rule 92(9), if I may?

For the last two days, the hon member who has just risen keeps rising repeatedly.

I don’t know if that’s the only Rule that she has memorised.

She rises repeatedly and raises it and it is never sustained.

That is a form of harassment of members on the floor.

She really needs to understand the Rule and not just parrot it.
She must understand the principle behind it.

Mr Plouamma is not in contravention of the Rule.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 140 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order.

Go ahead, hon member.

Ms M C C PILANE–MAJAKE: Hon Steenhuisen, my name is Pilane- Majake.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon member?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... the point which is raised by the Chief Whip of the Opposition is correct.
This new, hired member who calls for points of order must relax, because with every person who speaks, she wants to punctuate that with a point of order.

She must relax.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.

[Interjections.]

Hon members, can I ...

[Interjections.]

... hon members ... thulani!

[...

order!]

Thulani, thulani!

[Order, order!]

Mr B A RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, I am rising on the issue raised by the Chief Whip of the EFF when he said the Whip of the ANC is a hired member.
According to Rule 85, he is impugning on her dignity.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 141 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, can you stop this?

You are out of order and you are rude.

You are rude.

Stop it!

It seems as if there is something that you are not internalising here.

Every member has the right to raise a point of order, especially if they are not frivolous.

All of you have been raising that.

Proceed, hon Plouamma.


Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, his Presidency reflects general malice, where the Guptas are like cannibals to our state-owned enterprises.

This President must succumb to the consequences of his own greed and reckless appetite of material.

For Zuma to continue as a President will be like taking poachers to guard rhino in our Treasury.

President Zuma is the artery of a looting machine.


Mr X MABASA: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: According to Rule 82, he must proceed by saying, “President Zuma” or “Mr Zuma”.

He can’t just say “Zuma”.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

He knows that.

Hon Plouamma, you know that.

Proceed.

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Deputy Speaker, we must remove him to stop further economic destruction.

We must remove him to restore a 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 142 of 239 sense of civic pride and governance.
He has become an incubator of poverty.

With vultures like the Guptas destroying our future, this President has turned our country into a sorry mess and created an environment for conmen and vampires to flourish.

What sins have we committed?

This President is a punishment for our nation.

We must redeem ourselves and remove this President.

I thank you.

[Applause.]


Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, comrades, and hon members, the unease and disquiet in the nation about governance can neither go unnoticed nor be ignored.

Our legitimacy as leaders derives always from the consistency of our actions with the laws and the Constitution of our country and commitments made to the people at elections.
Leaders who fail the people, steal from them, violate the laws and the Constitution, and preside over the misuse and looting of public resources in government departments and public entities strip themselves of legitimacy before the nation.

We all have a responsibility to always act in the best interests of the African nation and the working class, guided by the Leninist dictum of everything for the people, nothing against the people.
President Zuma and his Cabinet have a challenge to 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 143 of 239 demonstrate in word and deed that they are, in all instances, acting in the best interests of the people - actions sufficient to reverse the legacy of poverty, unemployment, and inequality, and protect money from the corrupt.

On the motion before the House, we say the responsibility to defend President Zuma rests squarely with his party, the ANC.

The APC will therefore not vote against the motion.
In the same breath, the APC sees the motion as nothing but a political programme of the DA with their lies, deception, destruction, and hatred.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

The APC will not support a political programme of the liberals.

Thus, the APC will not support the motion either.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

As I press the abstain button, I will be thinking about the home-based caregivers, the HIV counsellors, early childhood development educators, Expanded Public Works Programme and Community Work Programme workers ... Mr M L W FILTANE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker: There is an old saying: A man who sees both sides of the question sees nothing.

[Applause.]

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 144 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is another frivolous point of order.
Go ahead, hon member.

Mr N T GODI: ... orphanages, drop-in centres, herdsmen and herdswomen, etc.

It is these suffering people’s plight that must concern this House.

I thank you.

[Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, here we are, again, for a fifth frivolous attempt by the opposition since 2014 to win by stealth and cunning battles that which they lost on the ground.

What makes a mockery of this are the reasons provided for this motion.
So-called state capture has become the most recent Trojan horse inside which the DA Spartans have hidden in their new, spurious attempt to waylay democracy.

It would seem that anything and everything would have passed for this debate today - that the DA was waiting for any excuse to bring to the House this motion so that we assist them and participate in their denigration of the President and the ANC.
For people who claim to respect democracy, the judiciary, rule of law, and fairness to act in this fashion which demonstrates, on the contrary, their utter disdain for these fundamental 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 145 of 239 Constitutional principles and values which we hold so dear, betrays their disingenuity.
In its own statement, the ANC has welcomed the erstwhile Public Protector’s report, noted the seriousness of the issues dealt with, and welcomed its recommendations, whilst noting that they are inconclusive and contain no binding findings conferring guilt on any party.

Rather, it calls for the establishment of a commission of inquiry into allegations of improper relationships and involvement of private interests in the running of the affairs of the state.
Furthermore, the ANC said that it supports, as a matter of principle, the setting up of a commission of inquiry.

However, due regard ...

[Interjections.]

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, I would like to raise a question with the member.

Is the member prepared to take a question?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The member won’t take your question.

Take your seat, hon member.

Proceed, hon Minister.


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 146 of 239 The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: The ANC, furthermore, stated its support, as a matter of principle, for the setting up of a commission of inquiry, noting that due regard must be given to the constitutional prescripts that guide the establishment of such a commission.

If the opposition believed in fairness and the rule of law, they would have welcomed the Public Protector’s report in toto.
And instead of jumping the gun to call for a vote of no confidence in the President on the basis of an inconclusive report, they should have waited patiently for the commission of inquiry and what it would find.

However ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, as the person who processed this order, perhaps you’d like to point out to the Deputy Minister it was tabled a long time prior to the State Capture report being released.

[Interjections.]

Better luck next time!


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That’s not a point of order.

Hon Minister, do exactly that.

Go ahead.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 147 of 239 The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: However, the fact of the matter is that such patience does not exist among those eager to dispose of the ANC in order to defend racial privilege and supremacy.
The truth is that there is a bitter struggle in South Africa between the former oppressors and those whom they oppressed for the right and power to determine the political direction of this country and the ownership of its economic resources.

When the Anglo-Boer War ended in 1902, the British, in particular, and whites, in general, had secured more than the monopoly of electoral power.
They had also secured for themselves the monopoly of political power and property ownership, included in which was the right to make black labour cheap and to exploit it without prohibitions.

Throughout its existence, the system of white supremacy had been predicated on this very notion that in order to plunder South Africa’s natural resources, the white minority had to have the exclusive monopoly of political power in its hands.
The end of the apartheid system constituted the horror of horrors for the racist political and economic establishment, as it elevated the natives, long kept in their place as the political underclass and beasts of burden, to political power, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 148 of 239 where they could begin dismantling the system of racial supremacy, occupy the civil service, change the laws and systems that had oppressed them, and start systematically to change both the structure of economic ownership and production.
Accordingly, the fight today, as it was in the past and will be tomorrow, is not merely a fight about the person of President Zuma.

Whilst it may ostensibly seem so, it is ultimately, about the ultimate control of the economic fortunes of this country and political destiny.

[Applause.]

In this regard, we can see right through the actions of the opposition and their façade.
These self-appointed defenders of the Constitution and rule of law, in and out of this House, fail the fundamental test of their own claims and assertions.

Ultimately, the true test of one’s commitment to a particular principle is not one’s willingness to respect it in so far as it applies to you or your friends, but rather when dealing with your opponents.

So, on this basis alone, this motion is clearly spurious, and should therefore not be supported.
However, Lenin warns us: 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 149 of 239 People always have been the foolish victims of deception and self-deception in politics, and they always will be until they have learnt to seek out the interests of some class or other behind all moral, religious, political and social phrases, declarations and promises.
At best, this motion is merely about political point-scoring, but at worst, it is characteristic of the abhorrent ploys by the global empire and their local political hoodlums, under guises of good governance and defending the Constitution and the rule of law, to steal political power in order to defend, protect, and advance their exclusive economic interests.
The CIA used this strategy in Iran, in 1951, following a decision by the then Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh to nationalise Iranian oil, thus taking it away from a British company that was exploiting it and the Iranian people.

According to John Perkins, author of The New Confessions of an Economic Hitman, Britain enlisted the assistance of the USA, their ally, and: Instead of sending in the Marines, therefore, Washington dispatched CIA agent Kermit Roosevelt (Theodore’s grandson).
He performed brilliantly, winning people over and through payoffs 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 150 of 239 and threats.

He then enlisted them to organise a series of street riots and violent demonstrations, which created the impression that Mosaddegh was unpopular and inept.

In the end, Mosaddegh went down and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

The pro-American Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi became the unchallenged dictator.
Certainly, Iran was not to be the only and final country to experience such foreign interventions with the support of local actors.

This is also the story of Panama, Ecuador, Iraq, Libya, and, closer to home, Zimbabwe.

The modus operandi remain the same, driven by a cartel of global governments, local politicians, and big global and domestic capital and corporations.
At its heart, this is about the commercial interests of the rich and powerful, who control the media and pay off local political actors, journalists, and others, in pursuit of their depraved agenda.

For years, the opposition has adopted a strategy of personalised fixation and attacks focused on President Zuma, aimed at demonising him and rendering him unpopular, portraying his leadership of our country as inept, corrupt-ridden, irrational, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 151 of 239 irresponsible, and reckless.
This was precisely the argument made earlier today when this farcical motion was tabled.

Mosaddegh’s crime in Iran was to reclaim their oil.

Torrijos’s crime in Panama was to reclaim the Panama Canal.

Roldós’s crime in Ecuador was to defend their oil.

And so were the crimes of Muammar Gaddafi in Libya and Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
In our case, our extensive mineral wealth, our membership of Brics, and the prospective nuclear power station in South Africa lie at the heart of the regime-change offensive we are subjected to today.

[Applause.]

Accepting this agenda and not opposing it to the very death will be our biggest folly.
As one member of the Cuban Five said during their trial in the US, refusing to cower and cringe in front of the imperialist, repressive machine, so we, too, repeat after him: “Here, on this soil, we stand with our robust souls!” [Applause.]

There will be no retreat.

There will be no surrender from our side.

The ANC pursues an historic mission to forge a united, democratic, nonracial, nonsexist, and prosperous society, while the DA pays lip service to poverty, unemployment, and inequality.
We know these conditions intimately because our 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 152 of 239 people have lived in them for centuries, condemned to their brutality by a system of racial tyranny of which the DA today is the most ardent defender and single-minded promoter.

For 104 years, our movement has struggled to overturn these conditions, concentrated as they are on black people, in general, and Africans, in particular.
The ANC has deployed Cde President Jacob Zuma to lead the implementation of a programme in government which will overcome these conditions.

It is under his leadership that the National Development Plan was drafted and adopted; the National Health Insurance is being piloted; a new HIV and Aids programme was developed, giving a real chance of a long, productive life to those living with HIV and Aids.
Under his leadership, this country unveiled the largest infrastructure roll-out in history; focus was changed towards rural development, and this has spearheaded a radical land reform programme.

We now have two new universities - in the Northern Cape and Mpumalanga.

Further education and training colleges have been restructured, their profiles raised, and billions of rand of investment made to improve their infrastructure.
The NSFAS has been increased to over R10 billion in 2016-17, and the children of poor parents and the “missing middle” earning less than 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 153 of 239 R600 000 per annum will continue to receive financial support from government.
A bold capital expenditure expansion was announced by state- owned companies, reflecting the expansionary outlook of this government towards economic investments; the first female AU Commission Chairperson in its 50 years of existence was elected; the energy challenge was resolved; and the Nine-Point Plan for economic recovery developed.

These are the issues our political class should be focusing on.

These are the issues, however, which they choose to neglect.
South Africans would be better served by an opposition that seeks to improve existing initiatives, or offers compelling alternatives, rather than sitting back – free of the responsibility to govern – plotting ways to win news cycles and score political points.

Working together, with all South Africans who are committed to taking positive steps to improve our economy and society, we will move South Africa forward.
Our country’s politics is too divided and polarised today, driven by racial-commercial interests.

We need to unite our nation because these divisions 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 154 of 239 are not good for any of us, especially during these difficult economic times for the working class and the poor.

The future of our Republic hangs by a thread.

Poverty, inequality, and joblessness weaken all of us, collectively.

Nobody benefits from their perpetuation.


Our country cries out for a leadership that will unite us, bridge the gaps, restore our hope in the future, and point us ever forward towards the promise of a better life in a national, democratic society, where all shall enjoy their fundamental rights as genuine equals.

We hear the call of our people for a good, visionary, uniting, ethical, transparent, and accountable leadership that places the interests of the nation ahead of their own.
We know that there are many mistakes we commit, as leadership, in the course of pursuing our people’s interests.

This democracy is young, and so, we learn by doing.

What we do not do right, we are determined to correct as we continue to learn how to better lead and serve our people in their very best interests.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 155 of 239 Finally, let me refer you to a conversation between a Buddha who was interrupted by a man during a lecture with a flood of abuse.
When the man had finished, the Buddha asked him: “If a man offered a gift to another, but the gift was declined, to whom would the gift belong?” “To the one who offered it,” said the man.

“Then,” said the Buddha, “I decline to accept your abuse and request you to keep it for yourself.” This is our message to our opposition today: We decline to accept your abuse and request you to keep it for yourselves.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

We will oppose this vote, not because, as we have said, we take lightly the issues of corruption, integrity, and transparency, but because we cannot join the regime change and economic plunder campaign of your global and economic masters.

You may be their puppets, but we are not.

I thank you.

[Time expired.]

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rose before the hon member could leave the podium.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes?


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 156 of 239 Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, I wanted to draw your attention to this: A man who thinks through his stomach is a dangerous man.

And so is Malusi Gigaba, who sings for millions just to control and maintain his concubine.

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you’re out of order.

Go ahead, hon member.

Hon Selfe, go ahead.

Proceed.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, you allowed the hon member from the EFF to speak.
What she has said is totally unacceptable in this House.

She must be asked to withdraw it, immediately.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Hon Selfe, I asked you to proceed.

[Interjections.]

Ms E N LOUW: On a point of order, Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no!

I am not taking any more points of order.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 157 of 239 Ms E N LOUW: [Inaudible.]

... take control here ...

[Inaudible.]

... since 1994 here and think they can control everything.
You mustn’t take orders from that woman.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon member.

Hon Selfe, proceed.

[Interjections.]

I am going to rule on this after this ...

[Interjections.]

Mr J SELFE: Deputy Speaker, this debate is about Jacob Zuma’s fitness to hold the office of President ... Mr X MABASA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ... Mr J SELFE: ... but it is also a debate about how the ANC elected him.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Selfe, you know that members are going to interrupt you if you do not ... Mr X MABASA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, Rule 82 does not allow that a member should be ignorant of saying “the hon President” or “Mr President Zuma”.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 158 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please only speak when I have asked you to do so.

Hon Selfe, you know that.


Mr J SELFE: However, it is also a debate about how the ANC elected him; how the ANC protected him; and how the ANC, faced with overwhelming evidence that he is unfit for office, continues to support him.

This debate is also about how the ANC has lost its soul and moral compass.

The ANC led the opposition to the Natives Land Act; it led the defiance campaign; it drafted the Freedom Charter; it spearheaded the armed struggle; and it forced apartheid to capitulate.
That was a proud history, a noble history, but that was then.

Now, we see a different ANC, who simply can’t do the right thing.

It is an ANC that appoints incompetent and compliant officials to key positions.

It is an ANC that covers up corruption on a colossal scale.

It is an ANC which protected a President who misappropriated state resources to improve his private residence.
It is an ANC who welcomes perpetrators of genocide ... 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 159 of 239 Mr B M MKONGI: Deputy Speaker, I want to ask if it is parliamentary for members of the DA to shout at us.

[Interjections.]

He is shouting at us!

He must debate the issue and not shout at us.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can we allow the hon Selfe to proceed?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, Deputy Speaker, I think the hon Mkongi makes a very good point.
The hon Selfe is being forced to shout because the ANC benches are being undisciplined and are not listening.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Selfe, please proceed.

Mr J SELFE: It is an ANC who welcomes perpetrators of genocide into their councils and who wants to leave the International Criminal Court.

It is an ANC who has allowed President Zuma to capture the state and the Guptas to capture President Zuma.

It is an ANC which allows its Cabinet members to be chosen in the Saxonwold shebeen.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 160 of 239 We all know that there are decent, hard-working, caring, patriotic people in the ANC.

Many of those people let their voices be heard in the last while.

The 101 veterans voiced their concern.

Many of the members of the ANC marched last Wednesday for the Save South Africa campaign.
Many people who suffered and were imprisoned and were exiled during the apartheid years have joined the growing call that whatever his previous contribution, President Zuma is not the right person to lead South Africa now.

For example, the NEC of Nehawu issued a statement highlighting what they called the lack of strategic oversight and leadership in government, declining hope amongst our people, and the ever-swirling, scandalous revelations of corruption.
It concluded that “the leadership of President Jacob Zuma in government is now untenable”.

Even former President Mbeki has added his voice to this chorus.

He said: The hard reality we face today is that our country is trapped in a general and deepening political and economic crisis which has, for many, begun to turn what was an age of hope into an age of despair.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 161 of 239 President Mbeki went further.
He said that when dealing with the Nkandla report, Parliament had failed in its duty to hold the President to account.

His comments are in line with the unanimous judgment of the Constitutional Court.

This Parliament failed to uphold the Constitution on that occasion.

Ahmed Kathrada wrote: “Today, I appeal to our President to submit to the will of the people and resign.” But President Zuma doesn’t want to listen to those voices.

He has rallied the national working group.

He has demanded discipline.


He has said that no one may venture an opinion except through an ANC branch.

It is clear that Mr Zuma, once more, wants to delay, and obfuscate, and ignore the remedial action of the Public Protector.

South Africans, expect more court cases that you will pay for.

Now, in this debate, the defence that has been put up for Mr Zuma has been pathetic because the Minister of Home Affairs came here and he said, oh well, they accept the findings of the Public Protector.
They were not findings of the Public Protector.

They were remedial action.

And as you well know, remedial action is binding.

And the remedial action states that there must be a commission of inquiry appointed, where the Chief 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 162 of 239 Justice appoints a judge to head that up.

That is the remedial action.

And then he went on about this massive international conspiracy, which, if he believes that seriously, then he believes in the Easter Bunny and Father Christmas, as well.
[Applause.]

The Minister of Water and Sanitation has got to the bottom of the barrel.

She involved herself in gutter politics by referring to the hon Maimane as a “black face”.

It is disgusting and it should never, ever be allowed in this House!

[Applause.]

The question we all need to ask is, How much longer are we prepared to tolerate this?

We are at a critical juncture in our history.


Parliament, all of us, need to take the right decision, and put our people and our country ahead of our personal and political interests.

HON MEMBERS: [Booing.]

Mr J SELFE: Come on!

Let us make the right choice, for South Africa’s sake, for Africa’s sake, for our children’s sake, and for the sake of our international reputation.

[Applause.]

HON MEMBERS: [Booing.]

[Interjections.]


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 163 of 239 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I am not sure what the communication was you were sharing with the hon Pandor, but are you really going to let this House descend into a House of booing when members are at the podium?

HON MEMBERS: [Booing.]

[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No!

It is completely unacceptable.


If you don’t take action, this House is going to descend into a House where those who can boo and scream the loudest are going to hold the day.

And that is not what a Parliament is all about.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No!

Take your seat, hon member.

Hon members, I appeal to all of you here to recognise that all of you want to be heard when you are at the podium.

All of you want to be respected when you are at the podium.
All of you expect to be treated in the way in which we ask you to treat all the other members.

So, we really want to repeat that the discipline and the decorum of the House are in your hands and in the way in which you conduct yourselves - all of you - in the House.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 164 of 239 Hon members, we do find, as presiding officers, we have to keep repeating to you that which is obvious, the blinding glimpses of the obvious - that if you say nasty things to anybody, you invite the same in return and then, we must intervene.

It is completely inappropriate, hon members.

The manner in which we act sometimes is really unacceptable.

[Interjections.]

Order, hon members!

Debate concluded.


Question put: That the motion by The Leader of the Opposition be agreed to.

Division demanded.

During division: HON MEMBERS: [Singing.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

Hon members, please settle down.

I would like to remind members that they may only vote from their allocated seats.
When requested to do so ... Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker ... 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 165 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you cannot interrupt me when I am going through the procedure.

[Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can you please recognise me when you are done?

Before the voting, can ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you can’t.

Hon member, we are in the process of voting.

Take your seat, please.

[Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can you please allow me to speak about the voting process itself?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

No!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The howlers must shut up when I speak.

[Interjections.]

The leadership ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No!

Hon member, please take your seat and stop ... Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But I am raising a point of order!

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 166 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No!

Hon member, you cannot raise a point of order when I have already moved into a process.

I have already started ruling.


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The point of order relates to the process that you are talking about.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is allowed.

It is part of the Rules that you must call a point of order.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, it is not allowed to interrupt me, the presiding officer, especially when I have already started reading out the procedure.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The point of order, in the Rule Book, is about interrupting.
It is allowed to interrupt a presiding officer when he or she is speaking.

[Interjections.]

It is a point of order.

Can you please listen to me?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

Hon member, I have advised you on this matter, and I request you not to insist.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 167 of 239 Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But we are allowed to raise a point of order on the process itself!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members!


Hon member ... hon Shivambu, be aware that the only condition under which we will allow this is if it relates to the procedure here.

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If that is the case, do so, so that we can hear what your point is.

[Interjections.]

Hon members!

I am tempted to use very strong language.

[Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You can do it!

You can do it!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Because I think ... no!


Hon Shivambu, go ahead with your point of order.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The point of order is that when we started this debate, we raised a point with you about the use of a secret ballot.

[Interjections.]

The Deputy Chief Whip of the dying ANC stood up to put a proposal here that we must decide whether we use a secret ballot, or not.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 168 of 239 That motion is on the table now.
We have to deal with that aspect of whether we use a secret ballot, or not.

Even if that becomes the case, it would not be correct to vote a right into a wrong.

It will still be unconstitutional, but we are trying to exhaust all possible measures so that when we go to court to challenge the constitutionality ...

[Interjections.]

... of not using a secret ballot in deciding the fate of a President, we would be in a position to tell the court that we have exhausted every possibility.
There is a motion on the table.

If she is withdrawing it, we are putting it on the table that we should decide whether we use a secret ballot, or not.

It is allowed in terms of Rule 31 of this Rule Book – that we can put an urgent motion.

There is an urgent motion for you to consider.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that, in fact, members give notice when notices of motion are called for in the House, or in writing.
Those motions are scheduled through agreed procedures.

The other procedure is through a motion without notice.

A motion without notice requires unanimous concurrence by all members present in the House for it to be put for a decision.

Unless one 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 169 of 239 of the two procedures is satisfied, or the exclusions in Rule 123 are adhered to, a motion cannot be put to the House.
As we know, motions without notice are currently suspended, pending deliberations in the National Assembly Rules Committee.

[Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, may I please read to you the Rules and then you listen patiently ...

[Interjections.]

... so that you have a proper understanding?

Under Rule 31 – please get the book so that you can read along as I read.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Under Rule 31, it allows for provisions in terms of raising a question of privilege, and it states that, amongst other things, it can: ... provide the member with an opportunity during the sitting to move an urgent motion without notice in terms of Rules 123(1)(b) and 127.

So, it is allowed to move an urgent motion without notice.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

We have now moved an urgent motion without notice that before we decide on this question, we must decide that we are going to use the secret ballot, because the majority 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 170 of 239 of the people there are conflicted, and they are scared that, if they vote against the ANC, they are going to face lots of consequences.

[Interjections.]

The Guptas are going to call them into their houses and harass them like they do with most of the Ministers.
That is an urgent motion.

It is allowed in terms of the parliamentary Rules.

Please take it, and we move from that.

Please.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the following is indicated – that our taking on such a motion is dependent on the House agreeing to that happening.

Firstly ...

[Interjections.]

No, no, no!

Hon members, wait a minute.

Members ought to express themselves on that matter in a way that is agreed to.
What I am going to request members to do – Chief Whips, right here, in the House ...

[Interjections.]

No!

In the House, hon members!

Hon Chief Whip, I am going to ask you to speak on this matter.

I will ask the other Chief Whips to speak, and I will conclude this matter.

[Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, when I made this proposal ... 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 171 of 239 The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, thank you for allowing me to address you.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Point of order, Deputy Speaker ... Order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order?

Hon members, I have given a member the opportunity to speak.

You will wait your turn.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, there is a member speaking.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But you just gave a ruling now that the Chief Whips must speak.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you insisted ... Mr N F SHIVAMBU: That member who is speaking is no Chief Whip!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.

I gave you an opportunity to speak.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 172 of 239 Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But you gave a ruling – unless you want to change your ruling!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat!

Take your seat.

I have made many rulings here.

You keep speaking.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am saying that you said Chief Whips must speak.

Is that a Chief Whip?

Is that Jackson Mthembu?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sit down!

Sit down, hon member!

Please take your seat.


[Interjections.]

I told you!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You have made the ruling now!

Is that Jackson Mthembu standing up over there?

[Interjections.]

Is that the hon Jackson Mthembu?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Pandor, please proceed.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, I would put it to you that we need to proceed with the division that has been called.
Rule 116 speaks to the matter of points of order during division, and it states: 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 173 of 239 Subject to all other Rules relating to the taking of points of order, while a division is in progress, members may only raise points of order directly related to the procedures during the division.

The only process under way now is that of voting.

We should proceed to vote.

We cannot have an urgent motion, because the procedure is voting, and we should proceed.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, why are you rising?

Mr N L S KWANKWA: May I have your attention, please?

Remember, when we discussed this matter right at the beginning, it was deferred towards the end of the process.

What you ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Can I finish my point, please, Sir?

I have a point to make.

Please!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no!

Hon members, please!


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 174 of 239 Mr N L S KWANKWA: Mhlekazi, tata, ndicela ungandingeni emlonyeni, ndincede.

[Sir, do not interrupt me, please.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Finish, hon member.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hayi, kaloku uyathetha, ndiza kuthetha njani mna?

[Well, you and I cannot speak at the same time, can we?]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Finish, hon member!

I am listening to you.


Mr N L S KWANKWA: I am saying you deferred this matter towards the end of the process.

We wanted the decision to be made upfront.

Now, we cannot be talking about a division.

Remember, we also made the proposal earlier on that this matter should be referred to the Whips to consult among themselves about what to do, and I was ruled as being out of order!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: So, you are in order now because you are making that proposal?
You are out of order, wena.

[Interjections.]

That is why the House is confused.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 175 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

No!

Mr N L S KWANKWA: We agree with the ruling that you have made now.

You cannot stand up just ...

[Interjections.]

... sisathetha.

[... whilst we are talking.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, no, no, Deputy Speaker.

May I conclude, please?

We agree with the ruling that you have made.


You have put the hon Naledi Pandor in a very difficult situation because you yourself deferred this matter towards the end.

Now, we are saying we agree with the proposal that you are making - that the Chief Whips must consult among themselves, when we shouldn’t debate the matter.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no.

I didn’t say you should consult yourself.

I said you must express yourself, in the House, now ... Mr N L S KWANKWA: In the House?
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... so that we move immediately.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 176 of 239 Mr N L S KWANKWA: Sowujikile ngoku?

[Are you going back on your word now?]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes!

[Interjections.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Yhoo hayi, undixakile!

[Oh no, you are too much for me!]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All I want to hear is what you are ...

[Interjections.]

Hon members, I am making an exception here.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: May I finish?

I will talk to you.

I am making an exception to what ought to be proceeding on the basis of what is before the House, by asking each hon Chief Whip to make a brief comment – not a comment, but an indication on this matter – so that we quickly proceed with it.

[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, you have properly cited the judgment of the Western Cape High Court on this matter.
Indeed, in October, Agang SA took the matter of the secret ballot vote to the Western Cape High Court.

They were joined by Cope.

They were joined by the UDM.

Let us, again, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 177 of 239 repeat what the judgment says.

I will read the entire judgment.

[Interjections.]

No, no, we should!

This is what Judge Goliath said: The Constitution provides for voting by secret ballot in electing the President, the Speaker, and the Deputy Speaker.
There is no implied or expressed constitutional requirement for voting by secret ballot in respect of a motion of no confidence in the President.

It further goes on to say: The court is not mandated to prescribe to the National Assembly on how to conduct its voting procedures.

In my view ... ... and that is the hon judge speaking ...
The effect of granting the relief sought in respect of voting by secret ballot would offend against the provisions of section 57 of the Constitution, as well as the doctrine of separation of powers, in that it would, in effect, amount to the court formulating rules for the National Assembly.

Consequently, all the various permutations of the challenge in 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 178 of 239 respect of voting by secret ballot on a motion of no confidence fall to be dismissed.
Are we not supposed to respect the court’s judgment, Deputy Speaker?

I am saying let us proceed with procedures of voting that are prescribed in our Rules.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Yes.

Hon Mulder?

[Interjections.]

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Deputy Speaker ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, let the member here in front of you speak first and you will follow.
Dr C P MULDER: Deputy Speaker, I rise in terms of Rule 92(4), which states that I am allowed to address you on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Dr C P MULDER: You asked us to give our input with regard to the question before the House.

The argument that the hon Chief Whip 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 179 of 239 of the Majority Party used just now explains exactly why we should be allowed to vote on this issue.

He referred to the court judgment.

What did the judge say?


The judge says it is not up to the court to decide on the procedure of the House.

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

Dr C P MULDER: That means it is up to the House to decide on its own procedure with regard to that.

[Interjections.]

Why?

Why?

Why does the judgment state that?

Because the Constitution does not clearly state that the vote should be in secret.

However, nor does the Constitution state that it should not be in secret.

You just referred to the judgment.


The Court says it is up to the members of this House to decide for themselves.

So, my proposal would be that we allow the House to take that decision.

Just a last point, Deputy Speaker, which I really think is in the interest of South Africa.

On Saturday, the Springboks will be playing against a very difficult opponent, England.

[Interjections.]

I would like to know something: The ANC has been very united and they have been very feisty today.
Can we 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 180 of 239 please get the name of the cheerleader who got them into this unanimity and feisty spirit to go and talk to the Springboks before the match on Saturday?

Thank you.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

Mr M L SHELEMBE: Deputy Speaker, what do you think the nation is reading from the fact that the majority party is scared of the secret ballot after they have just been singing here that they are not afraid, they want to vote?

[Interjections.]

They are in the majority.


Why are they scared of a secret ballot?

Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, you asked earlier on that the Chief Whips should meet.

I do not think that is correct, because the Chief Whips do not have any power to amend any Rule of this House.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip, I said the Chief Whips must express themselves in the House.

Mr N SINGH: Right.

So, I am expressing myself!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, please.


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 181 of 239 Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, on the question of privilege, it is up to you, as the presiding officer, to make an immediate ruling on the matter and announce it in the House.

That is according to Rule 31(2)(a).

However, I support the hon Mulder - that if this is a point of contention, as it was when we were formulating these new Rules, put the question to the House.

Do we want the secret ballot, or not?


We vote on it, and then proceed from there.

[Interjections.]

That will save all of us time.

Thank you.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, let us go back to the Rule that was raised by the acting Chief Whip of the ANC, Ms Naledi Pandor.
She quoted Rule 116, which states that, subject to all other Rules relating to the taking of points of order while a division is in progress, members may only raise points of order directly related to the procedure during the division.

The point of order that we have raised here directly relates to the voting process itself.

That one is beyond doubt, unless someone is mad or crazy.

It relates to the process itself ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 182 of 239 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: But that is why I allowed you to speak, hon member!

What is your point?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes, that is why we have to divide the House.

And then, if we agree to use a secret ballot, then Zuma will not be the President by the time we leave this House today.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, indeed, if you remember correctly, we said earlier that what should happen is that we should decide, as the House, on this matter, upfront, before we vote on the motion itself.

So, indeed, the matter should be put to a vote, given the fact that you have changed your mind about calling Chief Whips to go outside and consult amongst themselves.

[Interjections.]

But I think the issue ...

[Interjections.]


Banje ke, siyathula thina xa bethetha ... [Typical of them, we keep quiet when they are delivering a speech ...] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, please talk, man.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: The bottom-line issue here is we are trying to save them from themselves, right?

We are saying the issue here 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 183 of 239 is that, for instance, they have become an interest group for JZ.
We are trying to help them remove the President ... ... abasebenzi ngoku bathule abasebenzisani nathi.

[... now, they keep quiet and are not co-operating with us.]

So, put the matter to the House for a decision, Deputy Speaker.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...

[Interjections.]

... Hon members ... Oh!

Sorry, yes, go ahead.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, of course, we would love a secret ballot on this matter because I believe it would buy significant cover for a number of people in the ANC who feel deeply conflicted.

[Interjections.]

But it is not simply a matter of putting a resolution to the House.

It has got to be a twofold process.

I draw your attention to Rule 102 of the National Assembly Rules, if I may?
Rule 102 states very clearly that, unless the Constitution provides otherwise, voting takes place in accordance with Rules 103 and 104.

Now, there is a way around this.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 184 of 239 I say that that Rule is significant, because if you look at Rule 103(6), it states that members’ names and votes must be printed in the Minutes of Proceedings.

That precludes a secret ballot.


And if you look at Manual Voting, under Rule 104(3): “If the manual voting procedure permits, members’ names and votes must be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings.” So, the only way around this is if we were to – and if you look at Rule 4 - by resolution of the Assembly, suspend Rule 102 and then put the resolution to the House.

That is the only way you are going to get around it, because that is what the Rules provide for.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I have heard all the Whips now.

And we were in the middle of a voting process ... Mr L G MOKOENA: Sorry, Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... and this motion, because we have not taken the step we are talking about ... Mr L G MOKOENA: Deputy Speaker!

Deputy Speaker!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is happening now, hon member?
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 185 of 239 Mr L G MOKOENA: No, there is a member here who needs to go to the loo, but she is not being allowed to get out here.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

It is because, hon member, we were in the process of voting.

Mr L G MOKOENA: Yes, but she needs to go the loo.

Now.

[Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: This is not Generations, wena!

[Interjections.]

Mr L G MOKOENA: People are allowed to go the loo, are they not?

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Deputy Speaker, Deputy Speaker, can you rule on that, please?

Open the door.

[Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Ngqongqoshe, njengomuntu wesifazane sicela ulekelele ngoba uyagula ngempela lo muntu.

Siyacela.

[Minister, as a female, please assist.

Because this person is really sick.

We are pleading with you.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Don’t do it by force!

Hon member, let the member out and come back.

Hon members ...

[Interjections.]

Hon Khawula!


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 186 of 239 Ms M S KHAWULA: Uyagula!

Uyagula!

[She is sick!

She is sick!]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Khawula!

Hon Khawula ... Ms M S KHAWULA: Ngqongqoshe, siyacela bandla, lekelela.

[Minister, we are pleading with you to assist.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Lo muntu unjani kanti?

[What kind of a person is this?]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Uyagula!

Amalungelo wabantu besifazane akuphi uma kunje?

Uyagula!

[She is sick!


How can something like this happen when women have rights?

She is sick!]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, this is an exception.

It is not the rule.

It is an exception, please!

[Interjections.]

This is not allowed usually.

It is an exception.

Hon members, my ... Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Deputy Speaker, can we hold, please?

You are wasting our time now.

You are wasting our time.


Ms M S KHAWULA: Ngqongqoshe, ufuna ukubelethwa umuntu ... [Minister, this person needs to be put at the back of a person ...] 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 187 of 239 [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, having listened to all of you, I have come to the conclusion that one of the ways in which we could do that is the procedure that the hon Oosthuizen was mentioning – the various steps.

[Interjections.]

No, no!

Hon members, listen to me first.

[Interjections.]


Steenhuisen, yes – my apologies.

My apologies!

Hon members, the court judgment and its implications mean that ...

[Interjections.]

No, no, no, no!

Hon members, can you keep quiet ...

[Interjections.]

No, no, no, no!

Hon members, stop screaming!

What’s wrong with you?

Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Chair!

Hon Chair, we have a nasty situation here and I ...

[Interjections.]

Is it sorted out?

Alright, thank you.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, no, no, no!

[Interjections.]

Mr M M DLAMINI: You are afraid!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I do not accept that we must put this motion to the House.

I think this change of Rule to use secret ballots 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 188 of 239 must be dealt with through the procedures for bringing about a change in the Rules.

So, I am making a ruling and a decision that we should proceed with the voting.
Regarding those members for whom we made an exception, who have left, their Whips will be asked so that their votes are taken into account.

[Interjections.]

Hon members, I thought, because it was an emergency, we should do that.

[Interjections.]

Let them be called in!

Let them be called in, hon members.

Otherwise, they can’t vote.

[Interjections.]

I am not negotiating on this, hon members, please!

I am not negotiating.

It is not up ...

There is no more ... No, no ...


The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, here!

Here!

Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Who made you change your decision, Deputy Speaker?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no!

I am not allowing anybody ... We are proceeding with voting.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 189 of 239 Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Who made you change your decision?

Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair!

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: I was up first, Chair.
He can’t speak.

I was up first!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, man!

Hon Minister!

Hon Fana!

No, guys – no!

Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, can I be recognised?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon members, no!

[Interjections.]

Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, can I be recognised?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I requested that members be called in.

Are they coming in?

Mr L G MOKOENA: Yes, they are coming in.

Can I stand on a point of privilege?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, no!


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 190 of 239 Mr L G MOKOENA: No, you can’t prevent me from speaking!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I can, hon member!

Mr L G MOKOENA: No, you can’t!

It is not allowed in the Rules.

I have a right to speak as a member of this Parliament!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I know that.

Mr L G MOKOENA: You ought to allow me, please!

I am a ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No!

Mr L G MOKOENA: Alright!

Chair, the problem is this ...


[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon member.

Don’t speak ...

[Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: No, Chairperson, he can’t speak!

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 191 of 239 Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair!

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: He can’t speak, Chairperson!

[Interjections.]

Chair, the door is open, and he can’t speak!

Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon members!

Take your seats!

[Interjections.]


The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: He can’t speak!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, take your seats, hon members!

[Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: But, he is speaking, Chair!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, take your seats, hon members.

Please, both of you must take your seats!

Please take your seats, both of you!

No!

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 192 of 239 Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair!

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we ask those members who are outside to come in - those whom we asked to come in?

[Interjections.]

If they don’t come in within five minutes, we are proceeding.

[Interjections.]

Mr L G MOKOENA: Let me explain!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are proceeding with the voting.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: No, Deputy Speaker.

[Interjections.]

Deputy Speaker, whoah, whoah, whoah!

[Interjections.]

Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we close the door?


Can we close ... No, no, no, no!

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker!

[Interjections.]

Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, please?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon members!

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Deputy Speaker, please!

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 193 of 239 Ms E N LOUW: Just ring the bells!

[Interjections.]

Ms M O MOKAUSE: We’d rather ring the bells for one minute because this place is conflicted already.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, you are not allowed to speak when you are not recognised here.

[Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Come in, hon members!

Come in!

Dr C P MULDER: Deputy Speaker, I am calling a point of order in terms of Rule 116.

[Interjections.]

Hon Deputy Speaker, we are, constitutionally, on dangerous ground at the moment.

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: No, hon Deputy Speaker!

Why is he speaking?

[Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon members!

No, no, no, no!

Hon members, can you please ...

[Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Why is he speaking?

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 194 of 239 Ms E N LOUW: Just ring the bells!

[Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Why is he speaking?

Chairperson, you said we must sit down.

Why is he speaking?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you can’t ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Why are you speaking?

Why are you speaking?

[Interjections.]

You sit down, hon members!

Two wrongs don’t make a right!

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have requested you ...

[Interjections.]

I have requested you, hon members ...

I have made a ruling and there is a requirement for me to do that.

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, I am addressing you in terms of Rule 116 of the Rules ... An HON MEMBER: Mulder, sit down!
Dr C P MULDER: ... and I think that we are on dangerous constitutional ground at the moment ...

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Sit down!

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 195 of 239 Dr C P MULDER: ... and I am asking you to listen to what I’ve got to say.

[Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Sit down!

Dr C P MULDER: We are dealing ...

[Interjections.]

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Point of order!

Point of order, Speaker!

[Interjections.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I requested you not to speak on this matter.

I am not taking any points of order.

An HON MEMBER: Point of order!

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Sit down!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would like us to proceed.

[Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, you are outside the Rules of Parliament at the moment.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

I want to tell you that we are voting on a motion of no confidence in the President of the Republic.

[Interjections.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 196 of 239 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Point of order!

[Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Those doors were open.

That is contrary to the Rules of the House!

[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Point of order, Speaker!

Dr C P MULDER: For us to become sound ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Point of order!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members!

[Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Deputy Speaker, if you want to be safe ...

[Interjections.]

If you want to be safe, I suggest you start the voting process afresh ...

[Interjections.]

Mr B A RADEBE: Point of order!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I am going to allow the bells to be rung for one minute, and then we proceed.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 197 of 239 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker ... Deputy Speaker, may I address you?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The bells are already ringing.

[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I would like to address you when we come back, please, if we may?

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Bells must ring!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please take your seats.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Hon members, we request that we proceed, as agreed, earlier on, with our procedures.

Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker, please wait, because our members are still outside.

[Interjections.]

They are outside, you must open the door.

They are outside.

Open the door.

Open the door, thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the bells were rung for one minute because I thought that I must make provision for anybody outside to come in.
There is no special provision for that, so 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 198 of 239 we are going to proceed.

I would like to remind hon members that they may only vote from their allocated seats.

Hon members, voting will now commence.

An HON MEMBER: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That’s alright.

The Whips are aware of you.

It’s fine.

The voting session is now closed.

[Interjections.]

Ms H O HLOPHE: Deputy Speaker, are you rigging the elections?

Why are you taking so long?

[Interjections.]


Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We want to know the results.

Ms H O HLOPHE: You are rigging.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, can I rise on a point of order on Zwane?

He just switched on the microphone and spoke whilst seated.

Is that what the Guptas told him to come and do here?

[Interjections.]

To disrespect the Rules of the House that ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... hon Shivambu, please take your seat.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 199 of 239 Mr M L W FILTANE: On a point of order, Chair ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, let me finish here.

Mr M L W FILTANE: No, there is some irregularity there.

I have been observing that paper trail.

The Deputy Chief Whip gave a piece of paper to the gentleman standing.

He then looked at it and that was the reason for the delay.

We cannot accept those results!

What is on that piece of paper?

We want to know.

[Interjections.]

The House divided.
AYES - 126: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Balindlela, Z B N; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J; Breytenbach, G; Bucwa, H; Cardo, M J; Cassim, Y; Cebekhulu, R N; Chance, R W T; Davis, G R; De Freitas, M S F; Dlamini, M M; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Esterhuizen, J A; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Filtane, M L W; Gana, S M; Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hlengwa, M; Hlophe, H O; Holomisa, B H; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jafta, S M; James, W G; James, L V; Jongbloed, Z; Jooste, K; Kalyan, S V; Ketabahle, V; Khawula, M S; Khoza, N P; Khubisa, N M; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 200 of 239 Kruger, H C C; Krumbock, G R; Kwankwa, N L S; Lees, R A; Lekota, M G P; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, E N; Mabika, M S; Mackay, G; Mackenzie, C; Macpherson, D W; Madisha, W M; Maimane, M A; Majeke, C N; Majola, T R; Malatsi, M S; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; McLoughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo, T W; Mileham, K J; Mncwabe, S C; Mncwango, M A; Mokgalapa, S; Mokoena, L G; Motau, S C; Moteka, P G; Msibi, V Z; Msimang, C T; Mulaudzi, T E; Mulder, C P; Ollis, I M; Paulsen, M N; Plouamma, M A; Rabotapi, M W; Rawula, T; Redelinghuys, M H; Robertson, K P; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Shivambu, N F; Sithole, K P; Sonti, N P; Stander, T; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi, N I; Terblanche, J F; Topham, B R; Van Dalen, P; Van Damme, P T; Van der Merwe, L L; Van der Walt, D; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Volmink, H C; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Wilson, E R. NOES - 214: Abrahams, B L; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Brown, L; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, R N; Capa, N; Carrim, Y
 I; Cele, M A; Cele, B H; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 201 of 239 E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, N B; Davies, R H; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I; Fubbs, J L; Gamede, D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Jonas, M H; Kalako, M U; Kekana, P S; Kekana, H B; Kekana, E; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, M B; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota-Fredricks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Lesoma, R M M; Letsatsi-Duba, D B; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, P P; Mabilo, S P; Madella, A F; Madlopha, C Q; Maesela, P; Mafolo, M V; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majola, F Z; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Manana, D P; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Manyoni, T M; Maphanga, W B; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masehela, E K M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mnganga- Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mokoto, N R; 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 202 of 239 Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Mudau, A M; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, S T; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F;
 Nkoana-Mashabane, M E; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Peters, E D; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramaphosa, M C; Ramatlakane, L; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Semenya, M R; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; Van Rooyen, D D D; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni, L E; Zokwana, S; Zulu, L D; Zwane, M J. ABSTAIN - 1: Godi, N T. Question not agreed to.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 203 of 239 Motion accordingly negatived.

Ms N V MENTE: Deputy Speaker ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, order!

Order!

Ms N V MENTE: Deputy Speaker, I want to put it on record that this House, correcting a wrong with a wrong, is not right.

You are refusing a secret ballot and that is illegal.

We will therefore take this matter to court.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you cannot do that.

[Interjections.]

The House is still sitting.


Ms M S KHAWULA: Uxolo, ilungile yini lento eyenziwa laphaya phezulu egalari?

Ingabe ivunyelwe into enjalo?

[Excuse me, is what’s happening in the gallery acceptable?

Is this allowed?]

We are sick and tired.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: People in the gallery, you cannot do that.

People in the gallery, you are out of order.

Don’t do that.

You must not do that.

[Interjections.]


10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 204 of 239 Hon members, we will not allow this to happen next time.

This is out of order!

[Interjections.]

Hon members, those people in the gallery who are singing are grossly out of order.

Ms N V MENTE: No, there are bouncers standing there.

They must take care of the people in the gallery.

Ms M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, lapho ngaphambili.

[Chair, there in the front.]


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, this is an opportunity for member’s statements.

Ms M S KHAWULA: Lalela!

[Listen!]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon member?

Nks M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga.

Uyabona ukuthi into oyenza la ngaphakathi ayilungile nhlobo.

Awukwazi ukulungisa into ngephutha.

Uyabona ukuthi laba bantu kade beqalile beshaya izandla kodwa wena uyababuka, bayahlabelela wena uyababuka ...

[Ubuwelewele.]

Kufanele uphume kuleso sihlalo.


(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 205 of 239 [Ms M S KHAWULA: Thank you.

You see what you are doing here is completely wrong.

You can’t correct a wrong with a wrong.

You can see that these people have been clapping, but you are just quietly watching them.

They are singing but you are just watching ...

[Interjections.]

You must leave that chair.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ... ... kusho ukuthi awulaleli.
Uhleli lapho awulaleli noma uzwa kukhulunywa awuzwa.

Lento oyishoyo ayihambisani nalento esiyishoyo.

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[... clearly, you don’t listen.

You are sitting there without listening, even when you see people talking.

What you are saying doesn’t go with what we are saying.]

PROGRESS IN ANTIRETROVIRAL TREATMENT PROGRAMME (Member’s Statement) Mrs L DUNJWA (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC has committed itself to intensifying the fight against HIV and Aids and TB.
To this end, South Africa’s antiretroviral, ARV, treatment programme now reaches 3,5 million people - 1 million shy of the 4,6 million 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 206 of 239 for 2016, but a progressive improvement to the 2,4 million that had access in 2014.

Government is committed to significantly increasing ARV therapy, which it is expected to implement for universal testing and treatment among all age groups, irrespective of CD4 count.
Furthermore, government has adopted the 90-90-90 HIV and Aids targets, which denotes that 90% of people living with HIV now know their status, 90% of those who know their status have been introduced to ARV therapy, and 90% of those receiving treatment have suppressed viral loads.
We are intent on improved health for our people and are determined to intensify the fight against HIV/Aids and TB through aggressive prevention campaigns, expanding access to appropriate treatment, care, and support to all people living with HIV, and the treatment.

I thank you.
I thank you.

POLLUTED KAALSPRUIT RIVER (Member’s Statement) Mr M WATERS (DA): Chair, water test results in the Kaalspruit River, in Tembisa, have revealed a horror story, with no action 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 207 of 239 from either the ANC-run Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality nor the national Department of Water and Sanitation.

The latest testing reveals massive increases in pollution of dangerous proportions over a 13-month period.
The test reveals that the water contains extremely high levels of E.coli bacteria, 345 times higher than what is acceptable in river water.

It also contains exceptionally high levels of general bacteria – 330 times higher.

And due to sewage leaks into the water, the level of coliforms - which means human and animal faeces - has increased five-fold in 13 months to 22 000 times higher than what is acceptable for river water.
Health risks to the community posed by this contamination include diarrhoea, skin infections, ear infections, and respiratory infections.

This river runs just metres away from people’s houses, a primary school, and where children play.

Despite laying charges against the ANC-run Ekurhuleni Metro for contravening the National Water Act and asking the Minister of Water and Sanitation questions as to what her department is doing to rectify this stench, nothing has happened.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 208 of 239 It is quite clear the ANC does not take the health of Tembisa residents seriously, and only cares about them come election time.

I thank you.
I thank you.

EFF MARCH AGAINST THE ABUSE OF STATE INSTITUTIONS (Member’s Statement) Ms H O HLOPHE (EFF): House Chair, the EFF wants to alert all its ground forces and people concerned with the abuse of state institutions for narrow political purposes that, once again, the commander-in-chief, CIC, of the EFF will be appearing at the Bloemfontein Regional Court on 14 November 2016, charged under an apartheid era law - shame to the ANC!

- for calling for the return of our stolen land.


At no stage in our historic evolution as a democracy has the country been on the verge of collapse and lawlessness as it is now.

Our fighters are not going to be marching in defence of the CIC as an individual.
We march to demonstrate to Shaun Abrahams of the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, that it is not acceptable for the heads of important state institutions, such 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 209 of 239 as the NPA, to be used by corrupt politicians, like Mr Zuma, and businesspeople, such as thieves, like the Guptas, to render our institutions of democracy useless.

The NPA, under Mr Zuma, has become a toothless body that only prosecutes those thought of as opponents to Mr Zuma’s corrupt activities.
Shaun Abrahams is not a fit nor proper person to lead the NPA.

The admission by the Minister of Justice that they call the head of NPA to Luthuli House to discuss the prosecution of Fees Must Fall participants also shows that this man is willing to listen to what political parties say and not what the law says.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much.

Your time is up.

Ms H O HLOPHE (EFF): And we call upon all our ground forces to come on Monday, 14 November, to defend our land.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon member.

I am going to switch off the microphone.

Your time is up.
Your time is up.

ENATIS DISPUTE WITH TASIMA (PTY) LTD (Member’s Statement) 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 210 of 239 Mr G S RADEBE (ANC): Hon Chair, the ANC welcomes yesterday’s ruling by the Constitutional Court, which ruled in favour of the Department of Transport in a long-running battle with Tasima (Pty) Ltd. Tasima was granted a tender in 2001 to develop the electronic National Traffic Information System, eNaTIS, for the department that was supposed to run for five years.
Although the tender that was awarded ran for longer than it was supposed to, we appreciate that the department managed to go to the Constitutional Court, as it was facing many court cases.

At the end of the contract in 2007‚ Tasima was given a contract on a month-to-month basis to continue with eNaTIS until the five-year long disputed contract was signed by the director- general and transferred to the department.
During the period of the disputed extension‚ Tasima had obtained various court orders between 2012 and 2014.

However, on Wednesday, 9 November 2016, the Constitutional Court ruled that the extension no longer had legal effect‚ and an interim interdict issued by the High Court ... [Time expired.]
CONCERNING INCREASE IN STOCK THEFT 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 211 of 239 (Member’s Statement) Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU (IFP): House Chair, stock theft in South Africa is growing at an alarming rate, while our economy struggles to create new jobs and the numbers of unemployed increase day by day.

The knock-on effect of this on livestock farmers is that they have to consider increasing the price of meat, which, again, has a negative, compounding effect on our economy.
Organised crime syndicates are operating in many rural areas that have little or no police presence in which to prevent such crime from occurring, and this is destroying the small-scale livestock business.

Butcheries are complicit in this process as they see it as an opportunity to profit from another’s loss when they buy stolen meat at discount rates and then on-sell it to unsuspecting consumers.

Our rural communities are becoming increasingly frustrated with this type of theft.
One sees many kangaroo courts springing up and dealing out brutal corporal punishment to those they deem to be guilty.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 212 of 239 We call upon the department to accordingly embark on road shows to show people the importance of livestock branding and tracking programmes in order to combat and mitigate such stock theft.

I thank you.
I thank you.

EDUCATION FAILURES IN EASTERN CAPE (Member’s Statement) Ms C N MAJEKE (UDM): Hon Chairperson, the Eastern Cape Department of Education is failing our children.

We have no reason to expect any improvement in the performance of the province in any of the grades.

This is so because, amongst others, this province is teaching children under extremely dangerous conditions.

The mud schools are not only synonymous with, but fashionable in, the Eastern Cape where they are built.
Some of the contractors who were contracted to build the schools are not paid, resulting in endless delays in the completion of the Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi, programme.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 213 of 239 Government agencies tasked with the hiring of contractors to eradicate mud schools are giving tenders to companies that were either not registered or had been suspended by the government’s construction watchdog.
Added to this is the current situation faced by the Grade 12 pupils of Iqonce Secondary School.

They are writing exams while crammed in a box.

They are squashed together in a single garage barely 10 km from the provincial head office.

These children lost out on a plan set up to help thousands of matriculants prepare for exams because the school no longer conducts supplementary tutoring sessions.

Children are caught up in a web of incompetence and a lack of political will by the authorities.
The same authorities, five years ago ... [Time expired.]

ICT PUBLIC SERVICE AWARDS (Member’s Statement) Mr H M Z MMEMEZI (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC congratulates the Department of Home Affairs on winning the prestigious information and communications technology, ICT, Service Delivery 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 214 of 239 Transformation Award in the National Government category at the ICT Public Service Awards.
The ICT Service Delivery and Transformation Award recognises the most outstanding service delivery initiative, product, or service and transformation.

It is the second time in a row that the department has won in this category.

In October 2015, Home Affairs received this award for the ID smart card project - another component of the Modernisation programme, which began in the 2012-13 financial year.
The project was aimed at overhauling the department’s core business applications, technology infrastructure, and overall operations for improved service delivery.

These achievements bear testimony to the progress of modernisation, proving the determination of the department to develop new technologies and other capabilities for improved service.
We commend the department on its commitment to servicing the people of South Africa and helping to realise the ANC’s commitment to rapidly expand access to the use of ICT infrastructure.

I thank you.

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO KWAZULU-NATAL POLITICAL VIOLENCE (Member’s Statement) 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 215 of 239 Ms H B KEKANA (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC is committed to the peaceful resolution of political differences and opinions through dialogue.
We remain concerned by the upsurge in the political violence that has gripped KwaZulu-Natal since 2011 and which led to at least 20 deaths in 2016.

Numerous calls have been made for the establishment of a commission of inquiry into the underlying causes of this violence.

We therefore commend the bold and conscious decision of the KwaZulu–Natal provincial government to establish a commission of inquiry to probe political violence in the province.
The commission will investigate all killings, irrespective of the political party involved, so as to determine the underlying causes and recommend measures to bring an end to the political violence.

The ANC listens to the people and is committed to ensuring the improved safety and security of all communities.

I thank you.
I thank you.

FALSIFICATION OF MATRIC RESULTS BY MEDICAL STUDENT (Member’s Statement) 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 216 of 239 Prof B BOZZOLI (DA): House Chairperson, a disturbing report in the Sunday papers this week told us that a University of KwaZulu-Natal student had falsified his matric results in order to gain admission to medical school, and that the courts declined to take this further as a case of fraud.

There is no mention in the report that the university itself is taking the matter forward.
The student appears to be oblivious to the fact that the falsification of a curriculum vitae is fraud.

He is quoted as saying, self-pityingly, that he did nothing wrong and that far worse crimes are committed by rapists and murderers.

A crime is a crime.

This student fraudulently gained his place instead of another student, and that other student must have lost his or her place as a result.

Furthermore, the ease with which he has rationalised his actions does not bode well for his future as a doctor.
We expect our medical professionals to be people of the utmost integrity, who will not falsify prescriptions, death certificates, or diagnoses.

The student’s avoidance of any sanction for his behaviour will add to the deluge of factors undermining our society’s ethical and moral heart.

The boundary between what is criminal and what 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 217 of 239 is not is moving steadily, day by day, under the firm guidance of President Zuma and the ANC-led government.
So, there is a dangerous decline of trust in our society, which should not be allowed to continue.

We call on the University of KwaZulu–Natal to take urgent action against this student for his self-confessed crime and to add its small contribution to holding the line against unethical behaviour.

Thank you.

[Time expired.]

EFF VICTORY IN POLOKWANE (Member’s Statement) Ms M O MOKAUSE (EFF): House Chairperson, the EFF has shown, once more, that it is the last hope for jobs and a corruption-free government.
People’s trust in our organisation continues to grow, despite the disadvantage of not being funded by imperial capitalists.

The people of Ward 10 in Polokwane showed overwhelming confidence in the EFF by getting rid of the inept ANC in the Ward yesterday.

Fighter Jonas Evans Mothapo won the Ward with 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 218 of 239 54% of the votes, wresting it from the ANC, which had won it during the local government election in August 2016.
All the previous ANC councillors completely ignored the plight of the people and undermined the masses of Polokwane.

Under the watch of the ANC, people of Ward 10 have had no access to water, roads, or proper health care services.

The elderly and the sick struggle to get good quality medical care because the clinic is not open 24 hours a day.
The EFF’s people’s Ward councillor in Ward 10 will ensure that, as a matter of urgency, people of Ward 10 have access to water and good quality health care services.

He will ensure that there is a functional early childhood development centre in the Ward, the quality of which will be compared to those found in more affluent areas.

We shall demonstrate to all people of South Africa that, indeed, we are ready to take power in 2019.

[Time expired.]
[Time expired.]

PASSING ON OF SANDRA BALOYI (Member’s Statement) 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 219 of 239 Mr A MUDAU (ANC): Madam Chair, the ANC and the student fraternity are saddened by the news of the passing on of Sandra Baloyi, the former president of the Congress of South African Students, Cosas.

Ms Baloyi, having started as the regional secretary of the Mopani region, was later elected as the provincial chairperson and became the first female president of Cosas, in 2013.
She would have celebrated her 21st birthday on 22 November 2016.

At the time of her passing away, she was in her second year of studies in human resources management at Boston College, in Polokwane, Limpopo.

Cde Sandra was a very courageous, young leader, devoted to uplifting the lives of young people – learners, in particular.

Her death leaves a huge void in her family, the student movement, and the congress movement.
Her commitment and selflessness will continue to inspire hope in the youth and student movement and, in particular, among young, aspiring women leaders.

The ANC conveys its condolences to her family and her colleagues.

I thank you.
I thank you.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 220 of 239 BOOST FOR HEALTH CARE SERVICES IN LIMPOPO (Member’s Statement) Ms C N NCUBE-NDABA (ANC): Chairperson, the commitment to access to free, quality health care through the expansion of services and development of the required human resources and skills is a priority of the ANC’s.

We therefore proudly celebrate efforts by the Limpopo provincial government to increase the training of doctors, locally and abroad.
This commitment is realised in the recent graduation of four specialist medical doctors, qualified in the fields of radiology, forensic pathology, paediatrics, and paediatric pulmonology.

Most importantly, these are graduates of the new medical school at the University of Limpopo, which is the ninth in the country, and the first to be established by the democratic government of South Africa.
These doctors, through their specialised qualifications, will contribute to improved quality in the critically needed areas of our health care services.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 221 of 239 These achievements bring confidence and hope to our people in the ANC’s commitment to free, quality health care for all.

I thank you.
I thank you.

EXPANSION OF MYCITI BUS FLEET (Member’s Statement) Mr C H H HUNSINGER (DA): Hon Chair, yet again, the DA-led government of the City of Cape Town leads the country in the purchase of 10 electrically motored buses to expand the MyCiti public transport bus fleet.

The buses will be manufactured locally to benefit local economic development and job opportunities.

The clean technology is like the 51 buses already in service in the City of London.
More than 53 million passenger journeys have been recorded on the MyCiti service since its roll-out in May 2010, with more than 1,7 million passenger journeys in September this year, alone.

This stands in stark contrast to the fleet of buses that was bought by the ANC-led government in Port Elizabeth for the Soccer World Cup in 2010, which were purchased for more than R100 million.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 222 of 239 To make matters worse, another R2 billion was spent on infrastructure to make them functional, but dozens of them have not moved an inch because they are too big for the lanes they are supposed to drive in and, even more embarrassingly, the doors are on the wrong side!

Despite millions being spent on bus services, in particular, nearly every project has been polluted with irregular and wasteful expenditure or useless products.
This is a clear indication that the ANC-led government is not serious about service delivery ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much.

Your time is up.

Mr C H H HUNSINGER: ... leaving millions of people waiting for the bus.

The DA exposed ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, your time is up.

Mr C H H HUNSINGER: ...

[Inaudible.]

... it is yet another transport by tenderpreneurs.

[Time expired.]
[Time expired.]

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 223 of 239 EDUCATION FAILURES IN EASTERN CAPE (Minister’s Response) The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon Chairperson, in response to the hon member of the UDM, who raised the issue of payments, I want to challenge and request that you submit the list to me of those with outstanding payments, so that I can facilitate payment.
However, make sure that it is not payments that are in dispute - because it is very easy to say someone has an outstanding payment only to find that there are no invoices, or because of shoddy work, there are disputes.

Thank you.

EFF VICTORY IN POLOKWANE (Minister’s Response) The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon House Chair, let me indicate that we fully welcome the outcome of the by-elections that were held yesterday in 15 Wards.
Thirteen of those Wards, we must indicate, were won by 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 224 of 239 the ANC.

[Applause.]

So, we welcome the outcome of those by- elections.

We want to take this opportunity, once more, to commend the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, for the stunning work that they did to prepare for this important exercise.

[Interjections.]

Let us also commend the IEC for ensuring compliance with the recent Constitutional Court order by ensuring that the addresses of voters were in order.
The IEC went the extra mile with its process of acquiring addresses of voters in those affected Wards.

We must commend them for that.

Lastly, let’s commend the voters and the political parties who went the extra mile to ensure that the elections were conducted in a very, very peaceful environment.

Once more, we really commend this working electoral system.

It once more confirms that our electoral system is working and no one should doubt it.
We should all avoid the temptation to circumvent this system by resorting to shortcuts as we want to change leadership.

Let us respect this electoral system.

It is working and it is yielding results.

I thank you.

[Applause.]

ENATIS DISPUTE WITH TASIMA (PTY) LTD 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 225 of 239 EXPANSION OF MYCITI BUS FLEET (Minister’s Response) ISEKELA LIKANGQONGQSHE WEZOKUTHUTHA: Sihlalo ophethe, ngithanda ukwamukela isitatimende esifundwe umhlonishwa u-Radebe.
Sijabule kakhulu siwumnyango ngesinqumo seNkantolo yoMthethosisekelo sayizolo nge-electronic National Traffic Information System, eNatis, eyalele i-Tasima (Pty) Ltd ukuthi ezinsukwini eziyishumi ukuya kwezingamashumi amathathu lolu hlelo lubuyiselwe kwa-Road Traffic Management Corporation, RTMC.

Imininingwane yabantu bonke baseNingizimu Afrika ngezimoto nokushayela isizoba sezandleni zikahulumeni.
Kusukela siphuma singena ezinkantolo i- Tasima ifuna ukuba wuhlelo oluletha izinsiza ngenkani ilutha imali kahulumeni.

Okumangalisayo ngalokhu, ukuthi i-DA ithule ithe du ngoba ubugebengu obuhleliwe lento le ngoba bebelutha ingxenye yalokulutha kwalolu hlelo.

[Ihlombe.]

Okwesibili, esitatimendeni esenziwe yilungu ngohlelo lwe-MyCiti kufanele lisho ukuthi wuhlelo loMnyango wezokuThutha kaZwelonke.
Sibanikeze u-R8 million kulonyaka ukuthi luqhubeke njengoba benza, angayikhulumi eseyikhuluma yedwa kanti uhlelo lwethu 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 226 of 239 futhi siyayisebenza.

Amandla!

[Ihlombe.]

(Translation of isiZulu Minister’s Response follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, firstly, I would like to welcome the statement made by the hon Radebe.
We are very pleased, as the department, with the judgment handed down yesterday by the Constitutional Court regarding the electronic National Traffic Information System, eNaTIS, which orders Tasima (Pty) Ltd to hand over the system to the Road Traffic Management Corporation, RTMC, within 10 to 30 days.

All the particulars of all South Africans are now going to be administered by the state.
From the beginning, when we were in and out of the courts, Tasima wanted to be the service provider that brings service delivery by force so that they can take advantage of the state’s money.

Surprisingly, the DA is silent about this syndicate because they are also taking advantage of this system.

[Applause.]

Secondly, on the point raised by the hon member about the MyCiti system, the member must mention that the system is for the National Department of Transport.
We gave them R8 million this year so that they can continue with what they are doing.

He must 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 227 of 239 not now speak as though he is alone on this, when it is our system and we are involved.

Amandla!

[Power!]

[Applause.]]

CONCERNING INCREASE IN STOCK THEFT (Minister’s Response) The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, let me thank the hon member who raised the issue of stock theft.
After my response, I would also like to invite the member to give us the full details of the area.

Recently - three months ago - we launched an intervention project in the Department of Police in the form of mobile police stations to address issues of visibility of the police, especially in the rural communities.

Next week, on Friday, we will be visiting the area called Bityi in the Eastern Cape.
It is a very rural community, and we will be meeting with the chiefs and the leaders of that area to address issues precisely of stock theft.

Therefore, we invite all the Members of Parliament who come from the communities where there is the challenge of stock theft so 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 228 of 239 that we can then pay specific attention to those areas.

Thank you, Chair.

[Applause.]


EDUCATION FAILURES IN EASTERN CAPE EXPANSION OF MYCITI BUS FLEET (Minister’s Response) ISEKELA NGQONGQOSHE LEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KWEZOMNOTHO: Mgcinisihlalo, sisho ukuthi leyandaba ye-R1 billion [Izigidi.]

ngosuku iyaqhubeka ngempela.

Ngoba umasikhuluma ngalezizinhlelo ze-Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiatives, Asidi, lawa amalungu akhulume ngawo ayinxenye yalowo-R1 billion.

[Izigidi.]

Uma sikhuluma ngo-MyCiti laphayana nayo yinxenye yalo-R1 billion [Izigidi.]
ngosuku.

Uma sikhuluma ngalamabhasi sifuna ukuthi sibahalalisele ngempela lababantu baseKapa ukuthi bangene esigabeni sesibili wayo.

Siphinde futhi sibahalalisele abanye abazolandela o-Polokwane, oThekwini, o-Mbombela o-Rustenburg abazongena namanye amadolobha azolandela kuloluhlelo.

Siyabonga.

[Ihlombe.]

(Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 229 of 239 [The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, we say that the issue of R1 billion per day is continuing.
[Interjections.]

The Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi, which the members are talking about, forms part of the R1 billion.

[Interjections.]

The MyCiti Bus Services also forms part of the R1 billion per day.

[Interjections.]

When we talk about these buses, we must, indeed, congratulate the people of Cape Town, in that they have now entered the second phase.
We must also congratulate the other cities that will be included in this programme, such as Polokwane, Durban, Mbombela, Rustenburg, and others.

Thank you.

[Applause.]]

ICT PUBLIC SERVICE AWARDS (Minister’s Response) The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, it is, indeed, the second time that Home Affairs has won the prestigious Information and Communications Technology, ICT, Service Delivery Transformation Award and we are very, very proud of this award.
It is an award that has been given to us in 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 230 of 239 recognition of our transformatory work in developing an automated booking system for the refugee reception centres.
Members will recall the well-known image of hundreds and hundreds of people queuing outside our refugee reception centres from very, very early in the morning - sometimes from four o’clock in the morning - and this is because clearly, with the asylum system, it is very difficult to manage who comes into the country and to allow for appointments.
However, what this system does is, from the port of entry, allow for booking of appointments in our refugee reception centres which, hopefully, will transform the way we operate in those centres.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]


NOTICES OF MOTION Mr A J WILLIAMS: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House debates ways to create a climate conducive to enabling an increase in investment by the state, the local, 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 231 of 239 private sector, and the foreign investors in infrastructure and the real economy.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA: That the House debates whether Parliament is fulfilling its mandate in holding the executive to account.
Ms N R MASHABELA: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the EFF: That the House debates the use of state resources to fund the ANC’s election campaign under the leadership of the corrupt Jacob Zuma, particularly the use of police vans in Vhembe and KwaZulu-Natal during the by-elections yesterday.

Mr X MABASA: House Chair, on a point of order ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mashabela ... 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 232 of 239 Mr X MABASA: Rule 82 does not allow the President to be undermined in that manner.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mashabela, I think we have agreed, and I just want to remind members to please respect one another by referring to one another in a dignified manner.

I hope that will not be repeated.

Thank you, hon Mashabela.


Ms N R MASHABELA: Alright, House Chair.

Even the manner ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Aowa, ke feditše, mama.

Ke feditše.

[No, I am done, ma’am.

I am done.]

Ms N R MASHABELA: I have got something to ask, House Chair.

I just want to ask something, House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Aowa, ke feditše.

Ke feditše, mama.

[No, I am done, ma’am.

I am done.]

Ms N R MASHABELA: Please, I am asking, I am appealing to you.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Chairperson ... 10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 233 of 239 Ms H B KEKANA: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House debates reviving crime-fighting structures in our communities in support of law enforcement agencies.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order ... Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the IFP: That the House debates the moral degeneration of the ANC, as it lost its backbone again today and abandoned its moral values and convictions to save one man at the expense of our nation.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Chairperson, I have tried to attract your attention.
An HON MEMBER: What is your problem?

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 234 of 239 Mrs J D KILIAN: I would like to suggest that the motion that was read in the House by the EFF member be expunged from the record because it does not comply with the Rules on motions.

[Interjections.]

Otherwise, the hon member should be given an opportunity to withdraw and reword that motion.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Alright, hon member.

We will look into it.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Are you saying that the entire motion does not fit the criteria of what we are doing now?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Let me get an explanation first.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But I would like to make a point of order!
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 235 of 239 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I am still with the member who is standing and I want to get clarity on that, please, hon Steenhuisen.

[Interjections.]

Hon Kilian, are you saying the motion that was raised by the EFF does not fit the criteria of the motions as we are working on now?

Mrs J D KILIAN: I say the hon member should withdraw the offensive wording in the House.

If she is not willing to do that, she needs to comply with the Rules.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Alright, hon member.

Are you talking about the calling of the President by name?

Mrs J D KILIAN: I am calling ...

I am making that ...

[Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I have ruled on that one.

Thank you very much.

[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, House Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen, I must listen to everybody and understand what they are saying.

She understands now that I have ruled.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 236 of 239 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But with respect, you must uphold and protect the Rules of the National Assembly.

And Rule 92(2) is very clear: A point of order must be raised immediately when the alleged breach occurs.

We had moved on two motions before the hon Goodyear decided to stand up.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much.

That is noted.

I had not seen her.

That is why I allowed it when she raised it.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the NFP: That the House debates the incidence of murder cases in our country, particularly those that occur as a result of armed robbery and car hijacking.
Mr T E KENYE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House debates making state-owned enterprises, development finance institutions, and the private sector speed up the means of addressing infrastructural needs in Africa.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 237 of 239 Mr M L W FILTANE: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the UDM: That the House debates the state of the agricultural and forestry colleges and the impact on our economic growth and development.
Mr J VOS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA: That the House debates the importance of National Remembrance Day on 11 November and valuing the memory of those who have given their lives for our country in the defence of freedom and liberty.
Ms N P SONTI: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the EFF: That the House debates the use of the early childhood development, ECD, budget allocated to the Department of Social Development to fund ECD centres for the corrupt activities of the ANC Women’s League.

10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 238 of 239 [Interjections.]


Ms C N NCUBE: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House debates ways of accelerating the campaigns on health promotion and disease prevention through community-based actions.
Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House debates segregation and discrimination in the workplace by the private sector, which, at the same time, benefits from huge government contracts.
Mr M P GALO: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the AIC: That the House debates the measures that should be taken to prevent killings, stock theft, kidnapping, and stealing of vehicles on and through the borders of South Africa.
10 NOVEMBER 2016 PAGE: 239 of 239 Mr M WATERS: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the DA: That the House debates the current crisis engulfing nursing education in South Africa and the steps that need to be taken to protect the future of the nursing profession, which serves as the backbone of our health services.

The House adjourned at 18:56.


__________ ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS Please click on the following link to access the relevant Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports for this day.

https://www.parliament.gov.za/parliamentary-papers?sorts[date]=-1