Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698944269824.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 1 THURSDAY, 03 MARCH 2022 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE MINI-PLENARY SESSION OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ Members of the mini-plenary session met on the virtual platform at 14:00 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The Chairperson announced that the virtual mini-plenary sitting constituted a meeting of the National Assembly.
VIRTUAL SITTING RULES (Announcements) The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, before we proceed I just want to remind you that the virtual mini plenary UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 2 is deemed to be in the precinct of Parliament and constitutes a meeting of the NA for debating purposes only.

In addition to the rules of virtual sittings the rules of the NA including the rules of debate will apply.
Members enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the NA.

Members should equally note that anything said in the virtual platform is deemed to have been said to the House and maybe ruled upon.

All members who have logged in shall be considered to be present and are requested to mute their microphones and only unmute when they are recognised to speak.

This is because the mics are very sensitive and will pick up noise which might disturb the attention of other members.
When recognised to speak, please unmute your microphone and connect your video.

Members may make use of the icon on the bar at the bottom of their screens and which has an option that allows the member to put up his or her to raise points of order.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 3 The secretary will assist in alerting the Chairperson to members requesting to speak.
When using the virtual system, members are urged to refrain or desist from raising unnecessary points of order or interjections.

Hon members, we shall now proceed to the First Order of this mini plenary session which is subject for discussion in the name of hon O M C Maotwe on: Calling for an end to International Monetary Fund and World Bank loans.

CALLING FOR AN END TO INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND, IMF, AND WORLD BANK LOANS (SUBJECT FOR DISCUSSION) Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much, House Chair.
House Chair, allow me to take this opportunity to greet the officials of the EFF under the capable leadership of the president and commander- in-Chief, who is appearing before the East London Magistrate Court today, on a frivolous case by Afriforum a racist organisation.

House Chair, commander-in-chief and even comrade president, we wish him a happy birthday.
May God give you the strength president to continue with the revolutionary wisdom to continue to lead with courage and decisiveness until the black UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 4 Africans, the poor and the working class are economically free here in South Africa, Africa and the world, the whole of diaspora.
We will not surrender the EFF to racists because the EFF is the only organisation willing to stand up, House Chair, against imperialist institutions like the World Bank and the IMF.

We are not afraid, we are not cowards and continue to confront these racist, imperialist institutions.

We want the money borrowed from the IMF and the World Bank returned to its racist imperialist owners.
We are not going to stand by and watch cowards compromise our sovereignty even at a time when globally, it is becoming clear that sovereignty of any nation is a strategic matter and a security matter.

Chairperson, allow us to give a dose of reality that the incompetent collective Cabinet cannot comprehend.

Allow us to explain to South Africans how these loans are nothing but ideological hogwash.
The R11,4 billion from the World Bank that you borrowed in January is a scam and we intend to tell our people the truth.

Let us begin with the first falsehood and a lie.

We are told that we borrowed the money from the World bank UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 5 because we needed more dollars.

We were lied to and told that we needed to improve our foreign exchange holdings.
House Chair, at the time of the loan, South Africa had enough foreign reserves to cover imports and foreign debt service cost.

Unfortunately, this incompetence has exposed us all to unnecessary risk if the Rand depreciates.

We were told that the state needs to borrow externally.

This is misguided and only incompetent people will believe this nonsense.
The Government Employees Pension Fund, GEPF, is overfunded and the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, is sitting with excess funds enough to get rid of Eskom debt, reindustrialise Denial, rebuild Transnet capacity and invest in productive sectors of the economy.

We are told that we must continue with austerity, we must continue with cuts of education, social grants, essential infrastructure and salaries for public servants and this somehow will contribute to job creation and economic growth.
Chairperson, if we are honest, no one here can deny that the National Treasury captured by Washington institutions and rating agencies in the New York has failed to perform its functions in the interest of workers and the poor.

It is a failure to have a UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 6 debt to GDP ratio that will soon be above 80% with total debt of more than R4,3 trillion and we have nothing to show for it.
We are borrowing to pay back expenses that are not going anywhere.

We will still need to pay for salaries, consumables and other expenses tomorrow.

We must not stand by and watch as unassuming observers continue, to watch, to shower the National Treasury with praises when we know the history of the IMF’s structural adjustment program that has caused unimaginable devastation in the South.
We know that the ruling party, House Chair, and the incompetent Cabinet collectively do not have the understanding or capacity the situation we find ourselves in.

Some people are taking advantage of this incompetence, making millions out of all these loans with the IMF and World Bank and it has nothing to do economic growth or development as a country.
Instead of collecting all these senseless loans, from the IMF and the World Bank, South Africa should enter into meaningful development partnerships with China.

We must enter into partnerships that will build water, transport, sanitation, housing and education infrastructure.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 7 We must build high-speed trains from Musina to Johannesburg, from Johannesburg to Cape Town, from Johannesburg to Durban, and from Pretoria to Moloto.

We must high-speed internet infrastructure in all rural areas, we must improve and expand our road networks Beitbridge border all the way down to the Sea point.
We must build new cities with new industries to depopulate Johannesburg, Durban and Cape Town and not just rebrand existing old industries that are empty with no meaningful economic activities.

House Chair, since 2 000 China’s state-owned bank and construction companies have spent more than R1,8 trillion in mega infrastructure programmes, developmental partnerships and loans in the African continent.
The footprint of all these investments includes the following: A 969 kilometers standard gate rail project from Mombasa to Nairobi in Kenya; a 157 kilometers in Lagos Ibadan railway project in Nigeria at a cost of 1,5 billion US dollars; 753 kilometers railway project between Ethiopia to Djibouti at a cost of 2,5 billion dollars.

The project also includes 341 kilometers Mwanza Isaka standard gate railway in Tanzania.

Projects in Angola, Nigeria, capital cities in Tanzania, Egypt and many other projects.
If we are UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 8 going to sit here and wait for the West to build back better wealth and global gateway programmes by the US, it’s not going to happen and that is a fact.

It’s not going to happen.

So, we must do things differently, which means, we explore known resources and partnership.
It is an undisputable fact, House Chair, that loans from the IMF and World Bank haven’t changed the underdevelopment of countries that have a history of being colonised and turn sovereign nations into children of the West.

If this government insists on being breastfed neocolonial politics by the US, the UK and the global imperialist, they must not involve us.
We want to build an independent country and continent that will compete on the global stage as an equal, not as a beggar looking for handouts from loan sharks, who abuse us and tell us when to jump and when to ask and ask us how high to jump.

Remove us from your inability to manage money and your compulsive problems with debt.

We don’t want loans from the IMF and the World Bank they must all be returned.

I thank you, House Chair.


Ms M D MABILETSA: House Chair, hon members ... UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 9 Sepedi: ... le badudi kamoka kua gae ... English: ... in the build-up of this motion for debate, the sponsors have tried to manufacture a narrative and support it with fallacies all in an attempt to appear to be relevant on the subject matter.

On 1 February, we held ...

[Interjections.]


... finance committee meeting that dealt with the matter on the World Bank Development Policy concessional loan of approximately R11 billion.

The sponsors of the motion wanted us to believe that in accepting the loan, we have entered into a structural adjustment programme.
We have accepted that neoliberalism and the sovereignty of the country had been threatened, but by the end of that meeting, the sponsors were talking to themselves and no one was interested in their rhetoric.

A political party that does not develop to move with the times fails to correctly analyse issues and instead substitute rhetoric for analysis and critique.
It fails to understand that nothing is static and that change is constant - UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 10 a political party that at some stage will become irrelevant because facts and evidence no longer guide it but rhetoric does.

Our sovereignty is not being threatened.


The law needs to be considered with the context of South Africa in recent years, having taken loans from other international financial institutions in order to manage the requirements for increased borrowing due to the measures in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

This includes US$4,3 billion from the International Monetary Fund, IMF, under the rapid financing instrument in July 2020.
The US$300 million loan from the African Development Bank in July 2020 and the US$2 billion support dispersed from the New Development Bank.

The price of loans is within the broader plan on how to manage debt in a manner that is sustained.

Consistency in this regard is important.

The historic ANC view and stance towards both the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank was to critique ways, funding and programmes to understand development in developing countries and in a number of places.
Changes of government sometimes ...

[Inaudible.]

... as part of a broader initiative - and these are all historic facts.

After 1994, the South African government UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 11 began the process of engaging both institutions together with other groups which seek to change the orientation of both institutions.
It was a process of unity and the struggle of opposites that both influenced and led to the changes in financing arrangements.

Acceptance of national sovereignty and right to determine economic and political direction that resulted in ...

[Inaudible.]

... in both institutions.

Above, it was to measure that there was respect for the economic policies and decision of each country that South Africa low bid ...

[Inaudible.].
[Inaudible.].

Of course, further change is necessary but we cannot enter this debate as sponsors do, as if we are in the 1980s sitting with the burden of a structural adjustment programme.

We remain part of a nonaligned movement and are critical of countries and institutions who seek to impose their thinking ideology and economic influence.
As a prescription of the whole world, we are deeply conscious that there are certain countries who seek to influence a global economic order that fits their economic world interest and prescription, as well as access to mineral resources.

This is nothing new, and it is part of our struggle for a more equitable global economic world order.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 12 We remain an entrenched and independent foreign and economic policy and consider ourselves as part of a progressive world movement.

It is within this context that we enter into discussions of ...

[Inaudible.]

... arrangements with any institution.

We borrow money to meet different growth and development needs that cannot be financed revenue collection, especially where we run a budget deficit.
We also borrow to refinance outstanding debt that is maturing.

With both the IMF and World Bank loans, these are nonmarketable debts which is debt which cannot be bought and sold on the secondary market as is issued by the international finance institution.

The key advantage of any government who use the nonmarketable debt route as National Treasury has done is that you usually have more influence over the borrowing costs.
This is exactly what has happened with the World Bank Loan which is concessional and includes three years in which no payment is required which allows Treasury time to stabilise and reduce debt.

All of these sponsors of the motion just conventionally ...

[Interjections.]

... On the counterside lenders of nonmarketable debt may have quite a bit of influence over the policy and budgetary choices of government.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 13 So, what are the facts in this regard?

If we take the World Bank loan, it is financing South African government policy, not any other policy.

It is financing government’s economic recovery programme and COVID-19 response policy strategy.
The sponsors of this debate deal with the subject matter as if the institutions we are talking about are some alien international economic structure and call for an end to all such loans.

South Africa is part of the World Bank.

We hold 0,8% shareholding in it, precisely so we can influence and play a role in it.

The same applies to other international financial institutions that we play a part in, including the New Development Bank and African Development Bank.
The problem which calls for a debate is based on the emotional fallacies is that emotion itself get used to pursue with no argument to support it.

The historic legacies of both the IMF and World Bank are not the sum total of the current conjecture.

The World Bank change its approach to lending after the failure and damage of the imposing structural adjustments of developing countries during the 1980s.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 14 There is a distinction between the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank - something the motion seeks ignore.

But the fundamental motion for this debate is that we are being called ...

[Interjections.]

... end these types of loans without examining the character and content of these loans.

What they are meant to address at how they support governing policy is what the preconditions are.
On this matter we have been told there are conditions.

Again, this just shows the sponsors of the motion require an understanding of both marketable and nonmarketable debt.

In the case of the IMF and World Bank, there are no conditions, but linked all debt, but it applies to all of us.

An applicant needs preconditions.

If one examines the debt levels of South Africa, our reliance on ...

[Interjections.]

... international finance institutions is extremely low, which is one of our strength.
The overwhelming part of South African is taken up in marketable debt secondary market, yet we are being told to end loans from IMF and World Bank instead of focusing on where the bulk of our debt is, and the preconditions applicable.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 15 So, if our sovereignty is strengthened, as the sponsor says, how is it threatened.
If we use both loans that we have with IMF and World Bank, show us the evidence of where the sovereignty is threatened based on these two loans.

The problem with the sponsors of the motion is that they again have a chosen the wrong motion for debate because they chase emotional fallacies instead of choosing a debate that looks at policy, government debt levels and nonmarketable debt.

In conclusion, the EFF lecturing government about transparency and openness is rich coming from a party which is ...
[Inaudible.]

... in secrecy about where their money come from.

Openness and transparency are not a hallmark of the EFF.

The Political Party Funding Act shows the entire nation just how slow and reluctant ...

[Inaudible.]

... the EFF are when it comes to disclosure of financial sources.

Of course, it must be difficult given the EFF leadership lifestyle and the flow of cash - all indicators of another story.

Thank you, Chair Dr D T GEORGE: Thank you, House Chairperson, debt is not always bad.
It can play a useful role in providing money to achieve a particular outcome.

For households, properly managed, a loan can UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 16 enable the purchase of a home that can, in time, contribute to the creation of intergenerational wealth.

It can fund business start-ups and vehicle finance to enable economic activity.

Incorrectly managed, debt can become an incredible burden as experienced by many South African households.
This happens when too much money is borrowed and paying back the loan becomes unaffordable.

When this happens, there is no money to buy what the household needs because debt repayments are too high.

This is no different for government, with the exception that government can pay back its loans with money it does not have.

It can take the people’s tax money to pay its creditors.

In his last budget speech, Minister Mboweni said we owe a lot of people, a lot of money.

This was a staggering understatement.


What he should have said, is: We borrow as much as we can get, from anyone who will lend it to us and now we’re in very deep trouble.

Government sells bonds into the domestic market, repays an annual interest and then retires the debt at a future date.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 17 Domestic debt is a safer bet because there is no currency risk as the debt is repaid in Rand.
South Africa borrows heavily on the global markets because the domestic market is not big enough.

This creates a one-way bet on the rand because we need to sell rand to buy the foreign currency to repay the interest and the capital amount borrowed.

As the rand gets weaker, the cost of debt increases.

When it becomes difficult to borrow money on the domestic and foreign markets, another lender must be found and this is the lender of last resort, the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, IMF.
All lenders, including these, will want to ensure that their money is repaid.

In July 2020, the International Monetary Fund approved a R70 billion loan supposedly to help South Africa manage the immediate consequences of the COVID-19 pandemic.

At that time, government advised the IMF that it intended to take steps to stabilize its finances, to ensure repayment is possible.
We already know that our finances are not stable, especially given expenditure on the bloated Public Sector Wage Bill and never ending bailouts to state-owned enterprises and that economic growth is not being stimulated.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 18 Before COVID-19 reached South Africa, the gross mismanagement of the public finances had already reached crisis proportions, and the Treasury being able to quickly obtain a loan through the IMFs Rapid Financing Instrument, was not an opportunity to be missed.
According to the National Treasury, it planned to use the money to support health and frontline services, to protect the vulnerable, drive job creation, support economic reform and stabilize public debt.

The Minister needs to tell us if the money was received and what government spent it on, because there was no job creation, no economic reform and no debt stabilization.
In January this year, government took another R11 billion loan - this time from the World Bank, apparently to strengthen its pandemic response.

There has been no further detail.

When the finance committee convened to ask the Minister about the loan, he arrived 30 minutes late, spoke for a minute and provided no detail on the repayment terms of the loan.

It seems that the loan has been factored into the primary budget, so the impact is unknown.
The Minister needs to tell us what government has done with the money?

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 19 What we do know, is that interest on debt repayment will cost South African taxpayers over R1 trillion in the next three years.

More than for health, basic education and peace and security.

Government needs to borrow excessively because it has mismanaged the people’s money.
Reckless borrowing will not facilitate economic growth, will not generate jobs and will not fight unemployment and poverty.

In his state of the nation address, President Ramaphosa spoke of business being the generator of jobs in our economy, a significant departure from the discredited notion that government is able to do this.

A capable state enabling business to thrive is what we need, but don’t have.

No amount of borrowing can fix what the ANC has broken.
If we stay on the current track without reform to attract domestic and foreign investment and to encourage domestic savings, and if the Public Sector Wage Bill and state-owned enterprises aren’t reigned in, we are going to default on our ballooning debt repayments.

We are on the verge of another global economic crisis, this time triggered by Russia’s illegal invasion of the Ukraine.
The European economy will be negatively affected as they prepare to UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 20 fight Russian aggression via economic sanctions.

The Russian economy is already imploding as the financial war on it intensifies in retaliation for its aggression.

South Africa will be caught in the crossfire and our fragile economy will be battered even more.

The problem with South African debt is that it is not funding growth.
It is funding current consumption expenditure, much of it fruitless and wasteful.

This is reckless and irresponsible borrowing behaviour, and we will default if we don’t implement necessary reform.

It is possible to reverse the immeasurable damage inflicted on our economy by the ANC government.

The answer is not discontinuing loans from the IMF and the World Bank.

Properly applied, the money could be used beneficially, at a favourable interest rate.
Government needs to attract domestic and foreign investment capital and make domestic saving easier.

As our economy grows, and revenue rises, public debt can perform the function that it should, to fund economic enablers and not to paper over the cracks of grossly mismanaged public finance as it does now.

Thank you, House Chairperson.


UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 21 Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon House Chairperson, it is undeniable that the global pandemic had and continues to have a devastating social and economic impact on the livelihoods of ordinary South Africans.

Coupled with the uncertainty of the impact of the invasion of the Ukraine on the global market, South Africa’s economic forecast reflects a very grim picture.
The Minister of Finance’s recent budget speech starkly reflected the mammoth task at hand.

With an average expected gross domestic product, GDP, growth rate of only 1,8% over the next three years, the IFP has very little confidence in the government’s ability to rebuild and salvage an already sinking ship.
The Auditor-General’s most recent reports on government spending painted a grim picture of the financial health of South Africa’s state-owned entities and we emphasise, with shock, that seven state-owned enterprises, SOEs simply failed to submit their financial statements.

This lack of any financial discipline is time and again simply accepted, with no consequences or accountability.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 22 It is against this background of the regression of SOEs and shocking reports of the extent of corruption in the coordination of South Africa’s COVID-19 relief funds, as well as the looting of vulnerable financial aid meant for those suffering the most, that the IFP remains highly concerned about the massive loans received from global institutions, such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
Although the R4,3 billion-dollar loan from the IMF has been described as a “low-interest loan” under the IMF’s Rapid Financing Instrument, “to counter the adverse social and economic impacts of the pandemic”, very little information has been provided on the conditions of the loan, and how the government intends to service this debt over the next five years.
In light of the dire state of our economy and the fact that our government is under serious pressure to service our current debt, the public has every right to transparency on how our government will spend these loans and how they intend to repay them.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 23 We furthermore cannot dismiss valid concerns on the potential prescriptive influence of the IMF on government’s policy, especially in developing countries.
As pointed out in a recent report by the South African Institute of International Affairs on the potential role of the IMF in supporting South Africa’s just transition, the “IMF’s track record in Africa and the developing world has been chequered”.

The SAIIA report emphasises that to overcome these perceptions: The process of arriving at loan conditionalities need to be more consultative and transparent, with meaningful input from nonstate actors.
In conclusion, the IFP stresses that a loan is not bad if utilised for a good purpose, but the government instils very little confidence that these massive loans by global institutions will not be subjected to looting by corrupt government officials.
The people of South Africa have every right to this information, and IFP therefore demands accountability and transparency in how UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 24 these funds will be spent, repaid and protected from further looting.

I thank you.

Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, hon House Chair.

South Africa cannot live beyond its means.

I want to repeat this, hon House Chair, South Africa cannot live beyond its means.
That has to be managed through reforms; cuts in public spending, reining in the excesses of state-owned enterprises and dealing with the endemic corruption.

The spectacle of government inside is benefiting from COVID-19 related procurement and contracts is a sad indictment of President Ramaphosa of inability to deal with institutional corruption.

We seem to have to meet at almost every echelon of local, provincial and National government.

Since 2007, hon House Chair, the ANC could not do anything right.
It wants minimal state intervention where the private sector assuming a much greater role in managing the economy.

The real threat exist that the money will be squandered without holding safeguards in terms of transparency and the use of our proceeds.

The former Finance Minister, Mr Mboweni, acknowledged that South Africa has accumulated too much debt that the COVID-19 downturn will add UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 25 even more.
That every rand in 2020, that South Africans paid in tax, 21 cents went to paying interest on our past debts.

Hon Chair, the former Minister dismissed the critics of the loan of making ...

[Inaudible.]

...

In June 2020, he got the R1 billion COVID-19 emergency loan from the New Development Bank, the multilateral development bank established by Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, BRICS, states.
Further, the loans from the World Bank and African Development Bank also came into play, rather than the International Monetary Fund being the holy grail of the economic bailouts.

There are doubts as to whether its oversight structures are fit for purpose.
Although the authorities have committed to manage the International Monetary Fund emergency financial assistance with full transparency and accountability, the fund was naive to approve the loan largely on the staff assessments of former Minister Mboweni’s aspirations to introduce reforms and manage the economy better.

House Chair, the National Treasury has rightly commended the sebastian of budget transparency base erosion and profit shifting, Beps.
Further down the funding chain, oversight seems to dissipate.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 26 The International Monetary Fund’s assertion that the public procurement system has been revamped to address the weaknesses that facilitate state capture is surprising given the spectrum of allegations of fraud and misuse of funds that surface ...

[Inaudible.]

...

Regularly, publishing and auditing all COVID-19 related expenditures and ...
[Inaudible.]

... all of the procurement contracts and allocations without details of awarded companies and their beneficial owners.

That’s what we are sitting with.

However, this will help ...

[Inaudible.]

... diligent and impartial execution that remains in question.

In conclusion, hon House Chair, the South African government exposure on this instance is too high and represents a significant risk to debt sustainability and public finances.

Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon House Chairperson.

Hon House Chairperson, taking loans is not a problem particularly if it will be used in a correct manner for infrastructure development and for enhancing one’s business.

However, not being in a position to be able to pay back that debt is a problem.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 27 Chairperson, I want to give you some statistics, low-income countries are in debt to the tune of $860 billion as at 2020 which rose by 12%.

Greece faces a sovereign debt crisis as a result of their fiscal policies.

That is as a result of too much of spending, something that our Minister has repeatedly highlighted that we need to reduce our expenditure.
Another cause for the crisis that Greece found itself in, was its liberal welfare policy.

Chairperson, it is very good to come out and say we’ll give R3000, R4000 and R5000 a month.

That is not the solution.

The solution is to ensure that you have a more inclusive economy and a more productive society so that people would be able to live with comfort.

Now, what we have is a bloated inefficient economy country.
The International Monetary Fund, IMF, global debt is sitting at $226 trillion dollars, which is another increase by 20% since 2020.

Now, one of the greatest risks you face is that if you do not pay this debt it means - like if you took a loan, if you do not pay - they will attach your assets.

That is exactly what they will do here like in Zambia.
Then, the question is, if we UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 28 say that the country belongs to all who live in it, how is it a few of us who take the decision to borrow and borrow and borrow?

When we are not able to pay, who will it impact?

It will impact on the 59 million people in the country.

It means that we will find ourselves in a state of bankruptcy.

The creditors will file for bankruptcy and they will attach our assets.
That’s what it simply means.

There is no problem in borrowing like I said, if we can use it effectively like we have repeatedly spoken about infrastructure development.

However, we know that we don’t have the capacity.

Currently, we are borrowing as a result of most of our money going towards consumption.

That is not acceptable.

Now, can you imagine if your assets in this country is attached because we borrow and we did not use it optimally to be able to turn that money into profits ... [Time expired.]
... thank you very much, Chairperson.

I have so much more to say but I will stop here.

Thank you.

Mr A N SARUPEN: Thank you very much, Madam House Chair.

Madam House Chair, the debate started with the critique of the International Monetary Fund, IMF, and the World Bank and this UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 29 would be entirely correct as the ANC speaker said, if we were debating in 1982 and not 2022.
Structural adjustment programmes are not possible requirements for loans anymore.

Any modern and contemporary critique of the World Bank system is that they are no longer asking for reforms other than making expenditure, not to exceed revenue and honouring debts commitments.

There is nothing else to it at the moment.

In any event, it would be better to focus our attention in this debate.

Why we even need to have this debate?


That is because we have a government that is addicted to debt and borrowing money at a rate of knots.

Under normal circumstances this would be fine if it was invested in the growth of the economy.

However, the debt over the last 12 years was not.

It was not spent in capital projects, or the so needed infrastructure.

It was spent in salaries and bloating the civil service.
To give you an example, government now spends R30 billion a year on 30,000 managerial posts where people earn more than R1 million each.

Most of these are cadre deployments from the governing party.

In 2019 alone, R2,6 billion was spent on bonuses from these millionaire managers.

Between 2000 and 2020, UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 30 this government spent nearly R200 billion, and bailing out corrupt ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

... and inefficient state-owned enterprises.

In the meantime, investments into new dams, repairing roads, revitalising rail and other enablers of economic activity was neglected.

All that we’ve learnt from this experiments of borrowing money and then spending it to employ incompetent cadres or letting associates loot is that, it is not a good way to grow the economy or contain debts.
South Africa is stuck in the situation and we will need to borrow money for critical infrastructure investment in the future.

We should ask ourselves where will the money come from and what will we do with it?

If you ask some in this Chamber they will say that we should borrow from China.

That’s fine, except that the Chinese ambassador for South Africa said in 2019, and I quote: “Eskom is a death trap.

China gave them some loans before and now they become very cautious.
It’s an issue of management capacity.” He cautioned government on state-owned enterprises, SOEs, quite pointy.

He further said the Chinese investors want more than grand ideas or concepts.

These are the Chinese investors want to UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 31 see, favourable investment conditions protected by the rule of law as well as proper feasibility studies that can reassure the Chinese of the profitability and sustainability of projects.
Many of the concerns mentioned by the Chinese are the exact same concerns mentioned by rating agencies, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, IMF, and others.

All of these institutions, both from the East and the West are sounding the alarm bells of the fiscal trajectory of South Africa’s economy and we should be agnostic as to the politics in this debate and focus more on how we contain our debts and get our economy moving forward.
We can’t be expected to debate Strawman’s arguments that are no longer applicable.

Nevertheless, this is unsurprising as the proposers of this debate seem to be inevitable with the Soviet Union still exists.

I recommend, they visit the Berlin Wall to learn about what happened to the world after the 1980s.

The real issue is that our government is not prepared to make difficult choices to invest in bulk water infrastructure ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

... tenders for cadres or to invest in hospitals, rather than bailing out state-owned enterprises, SOEs, or to UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 32 hire more police officers rather than paying bonuses to millionaire managers.

Let us not get distracted by the 1980s politics and old outmoded ideas and focus on the real issues that matter to ordinary South Africans.

Thank you very much, Madam House Chair.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: House Chair, this morning we buried the former South African Student Congress, SASCO, president Mandla Mabuza who played a major role in the transformation of our education, and he was an activist in the late apartheid and during negotiations.

May his soul rest in peace.


Chair, let me try to reiterate the four reasons why we took the World Bank loan, and I think some of the colleagues on this platform have already articulated the reasons for us having to borrow this money.

We do also take the caution that borrowing is not a sustainable way of financing our expenditure.

Secondly, borrowing in itself is not bad depending on what you borrow for.
Fortunately, we have said this before that we have been borrowing largely to finance our state-owned enterprises, SOEs.

The 293 from 2013, as Minister Godongwane indicated in the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 33 budget speech, was basically utilised to finance ailing SOEs and that also eroded our budget baselines of departments.

So, we fully agree that you cannot borrow just to finance failing SOEs and consumption.
With this loan we went out to borrow in order to deal with revenue shortfall as a result of the impact of the pandemic, particularly in 2020.

We do accept that even before COVID our economy was already in trouble.

The lesson from this is that we need to focus on growing our economy undertaking those structural reforms because countries that were stronger and their fundamentals were stronger when the COVID shock hit, their economies were in a much better position to absorb the shock.
We were weak and we had to go and get extra money from the World Bank.

Therefore, this underscores the point that it is important that we really focus on the fundamentals in growing our economy and whatever we borrow should be channelled towards building the fundamentals of our economy.

Chair, we borrow every week as National Treasury to finance our deficit.

We borrow R19 billion every week.


So, what we got from the World Bank is smaller compared wo what we do almost every week in terms of borrowing to finance our deficit.
Part of the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 34 reason why we had to approach these multilateral development banks for budget support loans was also to diversify the funding sources, and we have said this before that this is also cheaper money compared to what we pay on capital market as we borrow on weekly basis.
Part of the reason why this World Bank loan is generally cheaper or from these multilateral development banks is because they borrow themselves at low rates on international markets.

For instance, the World Bank uses this leverage to offer their members, including our self because we are members of these multilateral institutions, to offer us lower rates than we would receive if we were to go to the market directly.
So, we looked around and I think it is in the interest of South Africa that we borrow cheaper so that we don’t pay high debt service costs.

I think we also said that there are no conditions attached to the loan.

It is a budget support loan to assist government in dealing with the impact of COVID.

Before a country receives a development policy loan the World Bank must confirm their microeconomic policy framework whether it is adequate or not, and I think they were satisfied with our microeconomic outlook.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 35 With regards to the question on what are the terms of this development policy loans, firstly, like I said, it is a low interest loan with a 13-year repayment period, including a grace period of three years.

The loan is based on reference rates which can change, but it is cheaper than what we get from the capital markets.
This compliments the government’s debt strategy to reduce its debt service costs by making use of cheaper sources of finance.

I think just as my parting short, yes, borrowing particularly for consumption is unsustainable.

We have to borrow to finance the strengthening of our economy, particularly for infrastructure.

I think if we are to avoid going to the World Bank and the IMF and protect our sovereignty, we need to watch very carefully our debt.
It is 4 trillion now and if we do not keep it on a sustainable level, it is at that point that our sovereignty will be undermined.

It is important therefore, in our view, for colleagues to support the budget that the Minister presented a week or two weeks ago because it is trying to do exactly that.
We should not keep our debt to unsustainable levels because if we do so we UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 36 will be in trouble and that is when we would have set the material conditions for us to go and lose our sovereignty.

At the moment this loan that we have just been discussing or debating doesn’t at all threaten our sovereignty.

Thank you, House Chair.


Ms O M C MAOTWE: House Chair, the Deputy Minister has just said he agrees that you cannot borrow money for consumption because that’s unsustainable.

But they are doing that, and that’s the point we are debating today.

But you took R11,4 billion and you have not used that money on any project that seeks to generate revenue so that you can service the loan.

You took it to pay the debt.

So, you are borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.

You are not assisting in any way.


House Chair, let me engage everybody who has debated.

When we heard that the Deputy Minister of Fiancé, the very same one, Dr David Masondo, was on Tv telling people that President Cyril Ramaphosa was wrong to say that government does not create jobs it is the job of the private sector, we saw that there was still some sense of class consciousness.
Afterwards, we are here today UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 37 we attempted to blame this on naivety if it is not a matter of incompetence, honestly.

We are not saying that the International Monetary Fund, IMF, and the World Bank are going to take over, but we are saying that the IMF and the World Bank have long controlled the National Treasury and call the shots with willing participants tedious there in Pretoria.
We are saying this has gone on for far too long unchallenged and it has to come to an end.

We will take over power in South Africa as the EFF and we will show our people that there is life outside the Washington consensus commandments.

We will show our people that we do not have to worship the IMF and the World Bank to build our own infrastructure.
We say this because we know that despite some attempts to confuse matters the 1993 IMF loan was used by the Treasury to shove down our throats neoliberal policies.

The World Bank loan to build Medupi and Kusile was used to loot state money from the public sector.

He has just said now that they wanted to take money to fund the state-owned enterprise, SOEs.
Which SOEs because these SOEs are crying on a daily basis UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 38 that they don’t have money and their budgets have been cut and they can’t say anything?

Eskom has been saying the same thing, Denel is saying the same thing and SAA has collapsed.

So, which SOE exactly is he talking about?

House Chair, there are these new loans that they have just taken.
They are going to be shoved down our throats again as a misguided energy policy to collapse Eskom and privatisation of strategic state-owned entities.

There are people who are gambling with our future on things they have very little understanding on, and it is very dangerous.

And these are old people that will not be here when we inherit this country being bankrupt.
It is time we all take a very close look at the National Treasury and understand the intention of these so- called economists and understand their real agenda.

We didn’t expect anything meaningful from the ANC backbenchers who don’t pay attention to the global dynamics.

They are talking about change in the IMF and the World Bank as if they know what these institutions were meant for.

We will continue to raise consciousness.

These ANC backbenchers don’t even know what the word fallacy mean.
There is no modern critic of the IMF and the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 39 World Bank.

People must not believe their own lies.

It is very dangerous.

Structural adjustments simply mean that you take the IMF money and adopt their policies.

Why would they demand adjustments if you are already swimming deep in neoliberalism?

The idea that we are not transparent about who fund the EFF is just a lousy attempt to divert attention from the debate.
We declared to the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, when we received the grant last month – we declared.

They were published this month.

How can you still come here and say we are not transparent about our funders when they are there in the open?

House Chair, we didn’t expect anything from the racist DA.

To them everything western that advances imperialism is taken as gospel true.

We are not going to waste our time with them.

They don’t deserve our attention at all.


They come here and tell us that the rush by the National Treasury to the IMF was an opportunity not to be missed.

What an ideologically driven agenda is that?

Or you are not surprised because the DA and the ANC seem to be sipping water from the same jug.

Our people must believe us when we tell them that the DA is an economic policy division under President Cyril Ramaphosa’s presidency.
We are UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 40 not saying borrow from China to pay salaries.

Let the Chinese companies bring worth of experience to share and build bulk social infrastructure here in South Africa.

White people continue to spend and accumulate according to the 1950s, 60s and 70s apartheid policies.

House Chair, allow me to conclude.


We didn’t say much about what the Minister of Finance said during the portfolio committee meeting that we requested the chairperson to convene to receive detailed briefing on the loans.

He came to the meeting like he didn’t know that there was a meeting when he woke up that morning.

We understand that global policies are difficult.

They are very difficult and require people to have their eyes on a lot of moving puzzles.
You know that the ruling party does not have the capacity.

They do not have the capacity to look at simple puzzles here at home.

The International Monitory Fund and the World Bank continue to champion imperialism through neoliberal policies.

South Africa is just another neocolonial nation with a misguided and political naïve group.

That is the biggest misfortune that has happened to our country.

I thank you, House Chair.


UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 41 Business suspended at and resumed at 14:57 STRENGTHENING THE SECURITY CLUSTER AND MOBILISING SOCIETY FOR PEACE AND STABILITY IN SOUTH AFRICA, IN THE REGION AND IN AFRICA (Subject for Discussion) AN HON MEMBER: ... as a reason.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay!


I have just been informed that Mr Mahlaule was supposed to start the mini plenary at 15:30, but I will proceed with that if it is the same link that we have to use.

Am I correct it is the same link, hon member?

AN HON MEMBER: Yes, it is the same link, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay!

No!

Then I would ...

[Interjections.]

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Mahlaule): Thank you very much, House Chair Boroto.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 42 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh!

Thank you, hon Mahlaule is here.

Thank you, Mr Mahlaule, you may proceed.

Mr T N MMUTLE: Hon House Chair, members of the House, fellow compatriots and friends, good afternoon.

I deem it appropriate, Chair, before I even start with the debate to pay tribute to the South African hit maker, Rikhado Makhado aka Ricky Rick, the Boss Zonke, the cotton eater.
IsiZulu: Indoda ebeyidla ukotini ... English: ... who passed away last week.

We wish to send our heartfelt condolences to his family, friends, fans, and the music industry and all who knew him.

May his soul rest in eternal peace.

This year marks 25 years since our internationally acclaimed Constitution, which contains the Bill of Rights in its second chapter, came into effect.
The roots of our Constitution and the Bill of Rights are well-placed in the founding document of the ANC convened in Bloemfontein in 1923.

The ANC adopted the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 43 African bill of rights, the central theme of the African bill of rights was the demand for land, freedom, the inequality of all citizens before the law and justice.

Two decades later, in 1943, The Africans’ Claim document was adopted.
It comes as no surprise that the anti-apartheid activist and former Constitutional Court judge, Judge Albie Sachs posed this question in 2017, “if you were to do a paternity test of the South African Constitution whose DNA would you discover?” The response was from none other than the long-serving president of the ANC, Oliver Tambo.

Our Constitution, Chair, is a product of decades of struggle.
It came against the backdrop of a history of colonialism and apartheid, a central feature of which was inequality based on race, class, and gender.

As the Freedom Charter declared that,” no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of the people.” The authority of the government of the day comes from the people through the Constitution.

Through the Constitution, people are able to express themselves and have their rights enforced.
As the ANC, we will remain committed to the Constitution, its UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 44 ideals and values.

The aftermath of the July unrest had a negative impact on our economy as well as the security cluster.

Many businesses have closed down.

People lost their livelihoods.

The Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, as presented by the President, is critical for boosting our economy.
It is a common cause for the economy to flourish the environment must be safe.

The safety and security of the people and business must be guaranteed.

We are seized by the pandemic of gender-based violence.

And gender-based violence and femicide continue as a pandemic in the country that were there even before the declaration of the COVID-19 pandemic.

The levels of gender-based violence and femicide are unacceptably high.

It is as though the lives of women and children do not matter.
Surely this needs to change.

The status quo cannot continue to exist.

Dismantling patriarchy and addressing the violence culture in our society is critical.

Notwithstanding all the challenges and encountered, we appreciate the report that gender-based violence and femicide are a priority crime in the SA Police Service.

We acknowledge that department’s efforts to implement the turnaround strategy to deal with the DNA backlog.
Through ministerial intervention, UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 45 17 critical contracts for DNA consumables have since been awarded.

Forensic laboratories have been capacitated with 19 interns to fill critical positions.

Forty percent of human resources are dedicated to addressing the backlog and 60% of human resources are dedicated to incoming cases.
It was reported between April last year and 10 February this year that out of 196 persons accused of gender-based violence, GBV, 272 life sentences were handed down.

We appreciate that the three Bills which address gender-based violence have been signed into law by the President.

The ANC government is taking a collaborative approach to ensure that no effort is spared to reach out to the survivors and to address this scourge.
The efforts to fight GBV Uh are welcome, however, it is the root cause of GBVF which must be plucked out.

We need to restore our societal values of Ubuntu.

We need to empower women so that they can be economically emancipated.

We need to uproot the demon of patriarchy.

But the fight against gender-based violence will not be won by the government alone.
We call upon civil society, the private UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 46 sector, faith-based organisation, amajimbos (the guys) bonke olova (all men) ... Sesotho: ... le di nkabi kaofela mmoho le mabutho ... English: ... and everyone to join hands.

Men must be at the centre of this fight.

Women should never have to fight gender-based violence alone.
The high levels of unemployment and the use of drugs results in our young people turning into a life of crime which poses a risk to the security of the country.

The government has made a call to communities to work with the police and be part of the solution in the fight against crime.

It was announced that funds were made available for the administration to capacitate the administration of the SA Police Service.
An announcement has been made that they will recruit 12 000 young people to come into the ranks and to assist in combating the challenges we are faced with, particularly in the space of the SA Police Service.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 47 The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has established two more specialised commercial crimes courts in Mthatha and East London in the Eastern Cape to bolster the efforts to fight against corruption.

Two more specialised courts in Palm Ridge and Pretoria North in Gauteng were also enhanced.

All provinces in the republic now have dedicated specialised commercial crimes courts, SCCCs.
The Investigating Directorate, with its multidisciplinary approach, brings the prosecutors, investigators and analysts together in order to combat serious, complex and high-profile corruption.

This is the cornerstone of addressing corruption.

The Deputy Chief Justice Zondo handed over the third part of his commission’s report.
The commission’s first report recommended the system to protect whistle-blowers, who are a vital safeguard in the fight against corruption and would take huge personal risk in reporting the wrongdoing must be strengthened.

The ANC government has said before and repeats that any individual and companies that are involved in wrongdoing we must take responsibility and be held to account.
In the defence space we have deployed, as a country, the SA National Defence Force in the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC and Mozambique in UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 48 peacekeeping missions which means we seek to ensure stability in the region and display our attitude for peace and human rights in the continent.
Our soldiers have heeded the call against the backdrop of budgetary constraints which we have raised on several occasions in these platforms that for any economy to flourish it must be accompanied by a strong security sector which is adequately funded.

Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair.

Mr A G WHITFIELD: Thank you very much, Chairperson, I think all of us have today proven very well that the ANC will never run a good story with the facts, because the fact is, Chairperson, there can be no doubt that in this decade, that South Africa faces the greatest threat to our national security, since 1994.
Years of violent service delivery protest, violent crime, the collapse of local government and rampant unemployment and poverty have created a perfect storm of instability and insecurity which now threatens the very existence of our constitutional democracy.
In a country where 56 people are murdered and 105 people are raped every single day, where members of the police service commit some of the heinous acts for brutality against our UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 49 citizens, where the extortion of private businesses by criminal thugs goes unpunished, we have an incapable state governed by a criminal syndicate.
You see, hon members, the greatest security threat to our constitutional democracy is not external, it is hiding in plain sight among us.

It is the ANC.

This criminal syndicate masquerading as a political party, has systematically dismantled the very state which has been designed to protect its citizens.
They have interfered with, infected and infiltrated the state with their poisonous politics, and this has all been done by design under the real state capture blue print, the national democratic revolution.

You cannot fully understand the instability and the insecurity in South Africa and the region, without understanding the intimate role the ANC has played in creating these conditions, especially within the security cluster.
Now, it is probably easy for many members on this platform to dismiss my claims as politicking.

But they don’t have to take my word for it, they can take the Panel of Expert’s Report word for it into the July unrest, had the following to say about the ANC.

Firstly, the political UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 50 environment which prevails especially within the ranks of the Ruling Party, has become a source of instability and should be remedy.
Secondly, business delegations did not mince their words in asking us to communicate their frustration that the inner conflict of the political party has now become a threat to the stability of the state.

Thirdly, the internal differences within the ANC contributed to the unrest and should be addressed as a matter of national security, now.

The violent unrest which ceased our nation last year, hon members, has exposed our security cluster as disorganised and divided.
It revealed the executive overreach of Cabinet Ministers as articulated in the Panel of Expert’s Report as follows, and I quote: Ministers seemed to have been more directly involved in intelligence and operational work than their portfolios require, bringing the appearance of an element of the executive leverage or interference in aligned function work of their services.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 51 We know that Minister Cele has made multiple and reasonable demands to receive intelligence briefings, and we know his history of interfering in operational matters.

So, there can be little doubt that this report is actually referring to him.
The Minister of Police has repeatedly misled the nation when he has said that the police has identified the 12 instigators for the July unrest, yet today, not a single so-called instigator has been arrested.

Why is this?

Why have they not been charged for terrorism or any other crime for that matter?

Minister Cele can simply not be left out of the hook for either misleading the nation or failing to do his job or both.
The Panel Report is caving about the dysfunction caused by the broken relationship between the Minister and the National Police Commissioner, and sites this dysfunction as a cause of the police poor response to the violent unrest.

The Minister is as much to blame as the National Police Commissioner, and the President must send a strong message to the security cluster by firing them.
Hon members, more than two decades of violent crime and instability culminating the violent unrest of last year, have UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 52 laid bare to the region, the continent and the world, the weakness about security cluster, the looming attacks on the South African soil, are becoming a realistic possibility against the backdrop of our failing state.
If we are to strengthen the security cluster, we need to purged of the ANC’s political interference once and for all, by limiting the power of the executive and strengthening the powers of Parliament.

Parliament must play a more important role in not only holding the executive account, but by performing functions which will legitimately fall within our domain.
One example where Parliament can play an immediate proactive role, is the national security council which currently only exists by virtue of a presidential elect, to quote the Panel Report.

Parliament must draw legislation to provide for oversight of the work of its council and at the development of a national strategy among other functions, are not left at the whims of the security cracks in some dark corner.
Cabinet has failed, and it is now left to Parliament to drive the urgent reforms required to overhaul the SA Police, so that we can restore public confidence and trust in policing.

This UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 53 House must cease its full constitutional power to strengthen security cluster, while the President Cabinet flounders.

This House must rise up from the ashes and lead our nation to a more secure and prosperous future for all.
Thank you.

Mr K B PILLAY: Hon Chairperson, members of the executive, members of the House, fellow compatriots and friends, the South African government declared the year 2022 as the year of unity and renewal, protecting and preserving our human rights gains.

We debate today, in an important month in our calendar, a Human Rights Month.
Ours is to always remember and to remind others that there was a time in this country when human rights were afforded to a small section in society and denied for the black majority.

There was a time when South Africa did not belong to all who lived in it.

There was a time when the will of the people did not prevail, when the wishes and aspirations of the majority were completely disregarded.
It is important to remember that the Constitution, which we cherish and hold so dear is a product of many decades of struggle.

It is through bloodshed that we attained our freedom.

It is incumbent upon us to defend our democratic gains.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 54 The ANC’s 54th National Conference reaffirmed the thrust of the mandate, as outline in the National Development Plan of 2030, that South Africa’s borders are effectively safeguarded, secured and well managed.
The conference accepted the security assessment, which identified four categories of threats facing South Africa, which are threats to the territorial integrity of the Republic, threats to the authority of the state, threats to the safety and wellbeing of South Africans and threats to the country’s economic development.
The government’s 2017 White Pater on International Migration for South Africa raised concerns about irregular immigration, noting that it led to unacceptable levels of corruption, human rights abuse and national security risks.

The conference therefore resolved the Border Management Authority must be expedited and implemented, in order to address the question of irregular migration and border management.
The ANC government took a decision to establish a Border Management Authority, BMA, to take responsibility for all functions to the management of our borders in an integrated manner.

The authority will be responsible for border-law UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 55 enforcement functions at ports of entry and all the borderlines.

The BMA will ensure a more efficient processing of goods at the country’s ports of entry.
It will strengthen our capacity to address border threats that could undermine the country’s security and socioeconomic development.

If borders are porous and do not fulfil its functions of separation, control and protection, danger to the state comes in the forms of transnational, organised crime, the operation of armed violent groups, the movement of illegal and hazardous goods or communicable diseases.

The BMA represents a comprehension approach to border management by South Africa.
It establishes an interministerial committee chaired by the Minister of Home Affairs and comprises the Ministers of Defence, Police, State Security, Agriculture, Finance, Environmental Affairs, Health, Trade and Industry and Transport.

It also establishes a border technical committee from the relevant state departments and institutions and an advisory committee that the Minister of Home Affairs may appoint.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 56 The Border Management Authority Act was assented by the President and became effective as of 1 January 2021.

The Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner of the BMA have already been appointed.

For the time being, the BMA is set to remain incubated as a branch of the Department of Home Affairs until March 2023.
By 1 April 2023, the authority is set to operate as a standing scheduled 3(A) public entity, reporting to the Minister of Home Affairs.

As we know, the Beitbridge border post is one of our busiest posts.

We welcome the current modernisation of its infrastructure at border posts.

This will assist to facilitate greater trade.

It has been reported that this project is at an advanced state of preparation.

This is indeed welcome.


We appreciate that the BMA will in no way work towards hindering any trade activities or market access between South Africa, African countries and the world.

On the contrary, it will bolster trade.

Security and economic development go hand in hand.


UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 57 The leadership of the Border Management Authority is busy putting systems in place to operationalised the BMA and the ultimate deployment of the border guards.

The BMA will have its own unique look with a new insignia developed and approved by the Department of Home Affairs in October 2021.
Consultations are currently underway for the Department of Trade and Industry and Competition and the Office of State Heraldry regarding the registration and protection of the logo.

The benefit for the South African economy is that goods and people will move through these six busiest land ports at a faster pace and in a more effective and efficient manner.
This will have specific and direct benefits for traders, freight carriers and all those transporting goods, since the intention is that all movements through these ports will be processed once and jointly by South African and the relevant neighbouring countries.

For a long time, the concept of the BMA was criticised by many people and political parties, prophesying doom.
Today, we can UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 58 see the great work of this ANC government.

We are a nation at work.

Thank you.

Mrs T P MSANE: Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to wish the commander-in-chief and President of the EFF, the voice of the voiceless, a blessed birthday.
Chairperson, our conception of peace, security and stability is one rooted in complete freedom for humanity, absence of injustice from those holding power, absence of poverty and deliberate underdevelopment of people, countries and regions.

It is not the presence of warm bodies of armed men and women [Inaudible.]

beating a militant population into submission.


In almost all instances in this country, in the region and in the continent, where there have been outbreaks of the type of violence that make the bourgeoisie anxious, those have been as a result of people demanding their rights to be human, to be respected.
In this country we have seen the security operators unleashed on people who assert their rights to have homes, to have basic UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 59 services like water delivered to them, not to have their kids falling into pit toilets at schools because of lack of sanitation.

The workers in Marikana were killed because they demanded a living wage.
Just in July last year in what was wrongly characterised as an invasion by Mr Ramaphosa, thousands of hungry, dejected masses of our people led a poverty uprising and expropriated foodstuffs from shops and malls.

The response of the state was to unleash more violence on them and still misdiagnose the problem.
There will never be peace and stability in this country for as long as we have almost 50% of the population unemployed; for as long as we have half of those employed on a positive wage that cannot put sufficient food on the table and a dignified roof over one’s head; for as long as the land, the mineral wealth and the control of information is in the hands of the selected few; for as long as political leaders take their mandate from those with deep pockets, who fund their lavish lifestyles.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 60 The unrest in eSwatini is as a result of King Mswati’s complete disregard of human beings and his feeling that Swaziland is his personal property.

The insurrection in Mozambique is largely because of the exclusion and marginalization of people from benefitting from the resources of their land.

When this happens, opportunistic western influencers will always find a way to fuel division and loot African resources.
There will never be peace and stability in Congo for as long as the wealth of the country is controlled by Belgium and America.

There will never be peace and stability in the world for as long as America’s military industrial complex ferments conflict all over the world in order to dominate, plunder and kill.

What is happening in Russia and Ukraine, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Libya and many other countries is a result of selfish greed by one-state power that seeks to dominate and exploit others.
Peace and security is impossible in circumstances like this.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 61 Addressing socioeconomic inequalities is at the heart of resolving these security problems, but we do need more.

For our country it does not help that we have poor security cluster with no intelligence capacity to dictate and eliminate threats.

The country’s intelligence services have no idea of what kind of foreign threats are present in this country.
There is no assessment of dangers of foreign-funded non- governmental organizations, NGOs, that are holding this country at ransom through courts.

These are immediate security threats risking plundering our country into a deep hole which we cannot get out of.

The private security industry, including foreign service security companies, has about 2,4 million registered security officers in the country, many of whom are heavily armed.
In contrast, the SA Police has just over 180 000 employees, including police and administrative staff.

The army has less than a 100 000 personnel.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 62 So, the country is outnumbered and possibly outgunned by private security firms that are unregulated and not monitored by any credible intelligence and detective work.
In the continent we need a unified approach to develop, to security and to in relations with foreign countries.

This must include a common agreement to kick France out of the affairs of the continent, to remove all US military bases in Africa, to have a common approach to the management of the natural resources of the continent to benefit the people of the continent.

There has never been a greater need for a federalized African government with one unitary voice on matters of security and development.
Without unity Africa will perish.

Thank you, Chairperson.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Chairperson, today, with compounding inequality, social division and the rise of global terrorism, it has never been more important that our security cluster is capacitated and capable in fulfilling its mandate to all South Africans in ensuring that they feel and are safe.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 63 To this end, our security institutions must be both effective and accountable to our citizenry.

All have important roles to play in alleviating the complex drivers of crime and safety, both nationally, regionally and on the continent.
Parliament is a critical check and balance, a s well as an oversight mechanism between the executive and the people of South Africa as we work towards citizenry-centric security policies.

However, such oversight requires transparency from the executive and adequate capacity and research, amongst others, from our parliamentarians.
Barriers to such interactions such as restrictions on access to information, the ever-present culture of executive secrecy and the lack of availability of independent and unbiased research material by the executive are all hindrances to effective parliamentary oversight.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 64 Institutional autonomy at parliamentary level is essential if we are serious about establishing effective parliamentary oversight of defence and security.

We must limit the executive from overstepping the scope and limits of their mandate and thereby strengthen our security cluster and mobilise our citizenry into active participation.
The building of trust is also primary to this endeavour and remains a critical ingredient for sustainable democratic and civilian sector security governance.

Chairperson, our approach to good security governance and oversight will require a holistic approach by various institutions, the executive as well as the public and private entities in order to ensure that the safety and security apparatus of the state always acts in the best interests and for the protection of all members of the society they serve.
The security sector itself must be ably capacitated in order to carry out its mandate and in this respect we must again raise the dire circumstances many of our SA Police Services, SAPS, and UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 65 military branches find themselves in, in respect of logistical and human resources.
We continue to hear reports of South African peacekeepers being placed in harm’s way unnecessarily when they are sent beyond our borders on peacekeeping missions but are not adequately equipped.

Such a situation is a travesty and we take this opportunity to call upon the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans to address this House on the current state of combat readiness and fitness of the peacekeeping forces we have in Mozambique.
Chairperson, it is imperative that we ensure military professionalism in our country, region and continent.

Politicization of the military on the continent remains a grave challenge that must be avoided at all costs.

Professional military education institutions must be bolstered, war colleges established and best practice shared between governments in Africa so that the citizens of South Africa, the region and the continent can feel and be safe, as per cluster mandate.

Chairperson, I thank you.


UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 66 Afrikaans: Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, in Afrikaans het ons ’n spreekwoord wat sê, jy moet eers by jou eie voordeur vee alvorens jy vir ander wil voorskryf.

As ek na die onderwerp van hierdie debat kyk, waar ons sê dat ons die veiligheidsgroepering moet versterk deur die gemeenskap, ook in die streek en in Afrika, wil ek in hierdie debat sê, kom ons begin by die begin.
Kom ons begin by ons eie huis.

English: If your own house is not in order, how can you prescribe to the region or even to Africa?

In fact, there are countries in the region that can prescribe to South Africa how it should manage its security cluster.

If I talk about the security cluster, we must also ask ourselves what is happening in this security cluster.
If a report lands on the table of the President, where it says, hon President, you and your Cabinet are actually responsible for the fact that we had the problems in KwaZulu-Natal and in Gauteng last year.

You are part of the cause and the reasons why we didn’t have proper UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 67 security and intelligence reports, which is part of the security cluster.
Then we must ask ourselves, what can we do to strengthen the security cluster?

If we look at the criminal justice system of South Africa, then the FF Plus says, the criminal justice system is failing the people of South Africa.

According to statistics from the police itself, only about 20%, actually less than 20%, of crimes end successfully in the courts of South Africa.

That means that a criminal has an 80% chance of getting away with crime in South Africa.
Even if we look at our murder rate in South Africa; if we look at gender-based violence, GBV, in South Africa, the criminal justice system is failing the victims of this crime.

Is it then no wonder that if you look at the causative factors when it comes to murder, according to the SA Police Service, the SAPS, almost 1 200 people were murdered or killed in the last calendar year of 2021 due of vigilantism and jungle justice – mob justice.
This means that society has no trust in the peace and, can I say, the security cluster to restore and ensure peace, and law and order in South Africa.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 68 I want to say that the hon member who asked for this discussion must start with her own party.

She must start with her own President as leader of the ANC and the Cabinet.
There is only ... way that we can strengthen this security cluster and that is to replace the ANC government with a new government.

I thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Mahlaule): Thank you very much, hon Groenewald.

Hon members, I’m informed that the ACDP will not be participating in this debate.

I will now check if the ATM is going to be participating.

The ATM?

No?

We will now move to the hon Shaik Emam.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, I have said this before and I’m saying it again.
Unless you deal with the socioeconomic conditions under which our people live, you will do very little in eradicating crime and making South Africa a safe and secure environment for our ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

Now, you know, the question that we need to ask is, with all the community police forums, CPFs, we have, the neighbourhood watches, the security industry, the SAPS, the law enforcement UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 69 officers and the metro police, together with the community, we are still not winning the war against crime.

So what is it that we are not doing correctly?


If you are going to continue having a very high unemployment rate in the country; if you have a criminal justice system that does not work; while the SAPS officers arrest people ... the courts release them because they do not have the capacity to be able to ...

[Inaudible.]

... unless you deal with the undocumented foreigners in the country and the porous borders that you have, you are not going to deal with the problem.
Unless you deal with the challenges we face with the ...

[Inaudible.]

... and the availability of grants and alcohol, and taverns being open to the early hours of the morning, you are not going to solve the problem.

Unless you deal with the corruption and looting, both from the private sector and the public sector, which robs the most vulnerable people of a quality of life in this country, you are not going to deal with creating a safe and secure environment.
Now, coupled with that is the fact that the State Security Agency or Crime Intelligence ... state security, Crime UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 70 Intelligence, the military intelligence, the SAPS, the metro police service are all compromised.

When you have political instability in the country and infighting in a political party that governs the country, and you have people that have chosen sides, how can you have a stable environment?
You certainly can’t, and that is giving rise to what we currently have in the country.

So, we need to have a holistic approach to this.

Let’s look at GBV.

Despite all the efforts and billions of rand spent annually in this country, even with nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, and nonprofit organisations, NPOs, the only thing you find is them coming and grandstanding outside a court when somebody has been arrested for rape or murder.

Yet, what have they done to prevent this rape and murder?
Very little or nothing.

So again, it means you need to deal with the root causes of the crime rate in this country.

If you don’t deal with that, I can assure you that you will be spending money and achieving nothing.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 71 Now we are grandstanding about the 12 000 police officers that we are going to roll out.
These 12 000 ... are going to be accommodated ... First of all, it’s going to take them a year or two to go out there and study.

Then they are going to get their experience.

However, in the meantime you have lost the cream of the crop.

You reduced the retirement age.

You ...

[Inaudible.]

... got those people ... who are skilled are leaving because they are not getting the necessary promotion.

They are not ...

[Inaudible.]

[Time expired.]


Ms B SWARTS: Chairperson, hon members, my debate will focus on the regional efforts within the Southern African Development Community, SADC, as a building block aimed at creating a peaceful and stable environment which is conducive for the economic integration of Africa.

Thus, contributing to a peaceful democratic, united and prosperous continent.
It is my considered view that SADC remains a key component of South Africa’s foreign policy which aims to promote political and social economic integration amongst its member states and to achieve peace, security and sustainable development, allowing the region to address the key challenges of underdevelopment, UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 72 unemployment and poverty.
Therefore, SADC remains the primary focus for the South African foreign policy to achieve regional development and integration within Southern Africa for the good of the continent.

The SADC integration objectives are grounded in its original vision of a common future in a regional community that will ensure economic wellbeing improvement of the standards of living and quality of life, freedom and social justice, peace and security for the people of Southern Africa.
Chairperson, it is inspiring to witness that in 2020, the SADC Summit approved the SADC Vision 2050 and the Regional Indicative Strategic Development Plan, RISDP, 2020 to 2030.

This vision is not only aligned to the African Union, AU,’s Agenda 2063, but to the United Nations, UN, 2030 Sustainable Development Goals as well.
The RISDP 2020, growing from vision 2050, sets out a comprehensive 10-year development agenda, for addressing social, economic, political and governance issues in the region which UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 73 one of the 6th priorities focusing on the foundation priority of peace, security and good governance.
As seen, Chairperson, the peace, security and good governance priority has been integrated into the RISDP to highlight the importance of peace, security and good governance as an enabler for social economic development in the region.

This priority is rooted in the SADC Protocol of politics, defence and security co-operation.

Hon members, South Africa is also working within the SADC to provide post-conflict reconstruction in countries which emerge out of conflicts.
Our country amongst the guarantors of the Peace, Security and Co-operation Framework for the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC.

As we all know, the Great Lakes Region has been marred by decades of political instability and arm conflicts, porous borders and humanitarian crisis as well as tensions over natural resources and other potentially destabilising factors.
A key milestone in the efforts to address these challenges was the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 74 adoption of the 24 February 2013, of a UN broker peace accord aimed at stabilising the DRC and the region.

The Peace, Security and Co-operation Framework was South Africa together with other 10 countries namely, Angola, Burundi, the Central African Republic, the Congo, the.
Democratic Republic of the Congo, Rwanda, South Sudan, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia.

Later in 2014 Kenya and Sudan became the twelfth and thirteenth signatories of the framework.

The UN, the African Union, the International Conference in the Great Lakes Region, and SADC Region respectively, are acting as guarantors of the framework.
The Peace, Security and Co- operation Framework focuses on inter alia first naturalisation of negative forces including the Allied Democratic Forces, the Democratic Forces for the Liberation of Rwanda, the XM-23 Rebels, and Lord’s Resistance Army, secondary repatriation, resettlement and reintegration of these ant combatants in the DRC and neighbouring countries.
Third review of dialogue and political processes in the region with a particular focus on DRC, Burundi, South Sudan and the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 75 Central African Republic.

Last but not least, the status of women participation in peace and political processes.
Chairperson, South Africa has upon invitation participated in the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region in an observer capacity where matters concerning the framework agreement are considered.

In addition, South Africa is a member of the International Contact Group on the Great Lakes Region where together with Angola it has the opportunity to champion the cases of the DRC as well as influence decisions taken by the UN.
At the continental level, the AU Assembly has issued a communique adopted by the Peace and Security Council at its 974th meeting held on 27 January 2021, reaffirming its unwavering commitment to continue to support efforts of the region in search of durable peace, security, stability and socio-economic development.

Chairperson, I will now come to the role of South Africa in the peace making process in the SADC Region and across the continent.
It is a well-known fact that South Africa was UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 76 conferred the Chairpersonship of the SADC Organ of Politics Defence and Security Corporation for a term from August 2021 to August 2022.

The overall objective and function of the SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security Corporation, is the promotion of peace, security and stability, as well as good governance and democracy in the SADC Region.
Under the stewardship of South Africa, the Organ’s focus is on inter alia political conflicts in Eswatini, Lesotho Mozambique, the DRC and observation of the elections.

Regarding the situation in Eswatini, we have noted that President Ramaphosa in his capacity as the Chairperson of the SADC Organ has appointed special envoys to engage with His Majesty King Mswati III of the Kingdom of Eswatini on the escalating security and political developments in the Kingdom.
As the follow up to a SADC Organ fact-finding mission, we visited Eswatini in July 2021.

The outcome of multi stakeholder consultation including King Mswati III.

The government civil society stakeholders, diplomatic corps on the ground was the need for an inclusive national dialogue in an appropriate forum.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 77 Following a meeting between President Ramaphosa and King Mswati III on 02 November 2021, It was agreed that the SADC Secretariat would assist in the development of terms of reference to the national dialogue.

A draft framework has been finalised and will be presented to the government of Eswatini.

As Parliament, we will continue to conduct oversight to see how our government contributes on this development.
Regarding the deployment of SADC Mission in Mozambique, SAMIM, the SADC Summit held on the 23rd of June 2021, approved the deployment of the SAMIM from the 15th of July 2021, as a regional response and support of the Republic of Mozambique to combat the threat of terrorism and acts of violent extremism in the Cabo Delgado Province for an initial period of three months.
Chairperson, we commend President Cyril Ramaphosa as the Chair of the SADC Organ for having convened the Extraordinary Summit of the Organ Troika, to receive a progressive report on the operations of the SAMIM, whereby the Summit considered the report of the regional co-ordination mechanisms on the operations of SAMIM, and also receive an assessment on the situation on the ground from the government of Mozambique.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 78 The Extraordinary Organ Troika Summit Plus which was convened recently in January 2022, approved a progress report of SAMIM and urged member states to avail the necessary combat equipment and personnel to support SAMIM, operations.
It has also approved the framework for support to the government of Mozambique in addressing terrorism which its essence lays out an exit strategy which encompasses the thematic areas of politics and diplomacy, economic, social development and humanitarian assistance, military information and intelligence, as well as public security law and order.

It is our hope that by the time the next Organ Troika Summit convenes much progress would have been made towards the stabilisation process.
Chairperson, with regard to the facilitation in the Kingdom of Lesotho, we have learned that the mandate of President Ramaphosa as the SADC Facilitator in the Kingdom of Lesotho was extended to August 2022.

We also appreciate the considerable effort that has been made by the national reform security ... [Time Expired.]
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 79 The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, House Chair, and good afternoon to members, it is an honour and privilege for me to take part in this important debate by the House.

Afternoon to all.

A safer South Africa is a prosperous South Africa.

The National Development Plan, NDP, is clear that personal safety is a human right.
It is not just about putting away criminals, it is about putting in long-term security mechanisms to ensure the people of this country are safe and feel safe.

Safety is a necessary condition for human development and the improvement of the quality of life and productivity also rests on this right.

Safety and security are directly related to socioeconomic development.

A secure country encourages economic growth as it creates an environment fit for employment opportunities, improved education and health.
A secure country also strengthens social cohesion and the ability for communities to thrive and achieve their potential.

Last month, Statistics SA released the Governance, Public Safety and Justice Survey victims of crime report for 2020-21.

Amongst UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 80 other revelations, this report indicated that almost 85% of the country’s population felt safe walking alone in their neighbourhood during the day.
During the night, the report indicates that only 40% of the population feel safe walking alone in their neighbourhood at this time.

It further elaborated that women in general felt safer walking alone in their neighbourhood than males during the day.

I bring this part of the report to the attention of this House as it demonstrates the way South Africans feel about their personal safety right now as we speak.
It is such statistics that will guide us into the vision of this country as outlined in the National Development Plan Vision 2030, where all people in South Africa feel safe and enjoy a community life free of fear.

It is through the realization of the SAPS’ constitutional mandates that this vision can be realized.

Unfortunately, this alone, is simply not enough.

Community partnership is essential to our work.

There is an African proverb that says: “If you want to go fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, go together”.

This proverb is more relevant now than it has ever been in the context of the security and UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 81 safety of our country.

Crime prevention is everyone’s business and community safety is everyone’s responsibility.
Co-ordinated partnerships between law enforcement, business, civil society and active citizenry in communities is our biggest trump card in the realization of a safer South Africa.

This, in line with reaffirming the police service’s commitment to building safer communities through community policing partnerships.

Work continues in building communities that are morally alert through community empowerment programmes.

The journey to involve and empower all formalised community structures is in progress.
We are continuing to work closely with Community Safety Departments in all our provinces to ensure community police forums, CPFs, are functional, efficient and up to the task.

The revitalization of CPFs is in line with the recommendations made by the Panel of Experts Report on July unrests.

It will also see CPFs across the country undergo training programmes with identified institutions of higher learning to ensure their functionality, responsibility and empower them on the relevant legislative framework.
Over and above this, the SAPS continue to mobilise the communities, young and old against crime.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 82 We know that many of our people have stood up and raised their hands offering to play their part in the fight against crime.

This is why the number of patriotic South Africans and foot soldiers in the form of community patrollers led by the CPFs is growing.
Community patrollers are made up of thousands of men and women who are volunteering their time to assist the police to intensify visibility on our streets.

We also appreciate the private sector and businesses involved in the overall fight against crime.

This has seen the core sharing of information to enhance operational responses especially to property related and other serious crimes.

We strongly encourage all those who live within our borders to play their part in the fight against crime.
Since an officer can’t be on every street and every corner, we count on our residents to be our additional eyes and ears.

The SAPS will continuously assess its capacity levels and recruit accordingly.
As per the response to the recommendations by the Panel of Experts Report on July unrests, the SAPS also endeavours to strengthen technological capacity, upgrade equipment and procure UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 83 all tools of trade for officers to exercise their duties in the best possible way.

Organizational restructuring of the SAPS is no longer an unavoidable matter.
It will be done to ensure the capacity at national and provincial level is equally matched by support structures at all levels.

We have committed ourselves to train 12 000 new recruits to join the SAPS.

The new police recruits will add to the gains of the SAPS and will, amongst other things, also bolster the stretched units within the organisation because it is important that the outstretched units within the organization are bolstered.
These units include the Public Order Police Unit that will be brought to acceptable levels in due course.

It is envisaged, the youths, who will be subjected to strict recruitment processes, will also bolster the SAPS fight against gender-based violence and femicide, GBVF.

This crime remains a priority of the SAPS.

Around 1 500 SAPS officers have been trained in Victim Empowerment, Domestic Violence, Sexual Offences related programs.
These officers are the first point of call for victims of GBVF at station level.

They will man the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 84 almost 400 GBVF desks at police stations.

The establishment of the GBVF desks will be finalized at the end of March, this year.

The protection of infrastructure is in keeping the inhabitants of the country safe as well as their property and that remains the core mandate of the SAPS.
We have in the recent past, seen the wanton destruction of property and looting of essential infrastructure.

In the step to action the Critical Infrastructure Act that replaces the National Key Points Act, Act 102 of 1980, I am pleased to report to this House that the Ministry is a step closer to establishing the Critical Infrastructure Council.

In closing, strengthening the security cluster, through capacitation of the country’s security services is non- negotiable.
It is an operation that is fully in motion and we are certain that we will achieve our objective.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Ms D KOHLER: Thank you very much, Chair.


Over the past months Sipeli a day has gone by without revelations about the wild looting that is gone on the State Security Agency and add that UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 85 the crime intelligence catastrophe and the allegations of mass looting in defence that is in the front pages is a total mass.

So, there is any single person in the National Assembly made any move to tackle this issue.
There is any one of these hon members made any effort to tackle any party state capture.

Well, I did what I believe was the right thing two hours ago I lay criminal charges against the man who by all accounts was the mastermind behind the State Security Agency principal agent network, the looting of billions of rands and the illegal released of Jacob Zuma from prison.

I laid charges again.

I first laid charges against Arthur Fraser on 9 April 2009 and those charges mysteriously disappeared.
The leader of the DA then the Chief Whip John Steenhuisen laid charges against Authur Fraser in 2017 and those charges mysteriously disappeared.

So, today I once gone and laid extensive and detail charges against Mr Fraser in the hopes that this time after all those millions invested in the Zondo commission, the Security Cluster may finally do what they are paid to do.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 86 Last year, South Africans were asking where the Intelligence Service where when the country burned down around their ears?

Where was the domestic branch of the State Security Agency as billions of rands of our infrastructure was destroyed?

Where was Crime Intelligence as our more businesses, jobs and careers were looted and burned?

Citizens asked, do we have an Intelligence Structure?
This insurrection didn’t simple self-ignite.

Everyone knew it was coming.

Posters advertising when and where protests will take place were flying above social media days before the shooting started, days before the burning started and days before the looting started.

In all, our Security Cluster has proven itself to be a multi-billion rand balloon of hot air.

This country has known about state capture for over a decade.
The High Level Panel Report detailed how our Security Cluster was being used and abused as a fund sourcing mechanism by a factional of the ANC.

It came out in 2018 an absolutely zero has happened since then, not a single arrest and not a single rand recovered.

Yet the recent bunch of headlines read like this: Spy boss Arthur Frasers R225 million covert spy bill – and how he seized power.

His budget grew by 621% during his first year as Intelligence boss.
All detailing documents and affidavit UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 87 submitted to the Zondo Commission, but that is from R42 million up to R303 million in 2017-18.

Not a single arrestor a single rand recovered.

Endless, Rogue spies gone spending spree after looting R108 million from State Security Agency.

Parallel Intelligence Structures embarked on a feasible of corruption, which saw the State Security Agency lose R1,5 billion.
Rogue spies allegedly bought several houses using the State Security Agency, SSA, funds and enlist it back to the agency.

The Hawks has known about this for three years.

Not a single arrest and not a single rand recovered.

The claim that is out there is that criminal networks which were captured and paralysed the State Security Agency, that was between 2008 and 2018 was still firmly entrenched in the organisation.
In fact, looking at the headlines of late, they are left to ensure a laughing stock status in the world global security for decades to come.

Here is my personal favourite, recently ex Minister of Intelligence Ayanda Dlodlo brought back Fraser permanent and UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 88 promoted him.

One of 26 of irregular appointments made on her watch.

Now the irregular promotions are being investigated by who?
By the new Minister under whom under Public Service administration now falls.

And that is Ayanda Dlodlo.


The way to strengthen the Security Cluster: stop treating South Africans citizens with contempt putting together panel of experts and then ignoring their recommendations, stop recycling those who have failed this country so dismally putting political expediencies before our country, stop rewarding excellency and stop allowing unqualified cadres into every knock and crony of Security Cluster, arrest and jail those who have looted the free services.
Our so-called Intelligence Services were to quote the then Minister of Defence: conquer their pens down, so busy infighting and looting but they didn’t realised that they are naked in front of the entire country.

Above all, the hon members of this august House must grow a backbone, and for once you seemed to be standing for the voters who put them here.

They deserve freedom.

What have you given them instead.

Just do it.

This, hon members, is how to strengthen the Security Cluster.

I thank you.
I thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 89 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M G Mahlaule): Thank you very much, hon Kohler.

Hon members, I am informed that hon Pillay saved two minutes that he is donating to hon Mmutle.

And that means hon Mmuntle has now eight minutes.

I now call the hon Mmuntle to the platform.

Mr T N MMUTLE: Thank you again, hon Chair.


I don’t know what does the hon member from the DA knows about freedom because it is the ANC that ushered this freedom that he is prospecting to know about.

And if there is any one to be arrested, it is the DA government in the City of Cape Town for illegally establishing the Intelligence Unit undermining the Constitution of this country as they are known to be a constitutional delinquent.
The ANC, Chair, continues to be committed in creating a safe and secure society for everyone.

The ANC appreciate that there is a need to have a safe and secure communities in order for economic activities to take place freely, a safe and secure environment in a clear attribute of democratic society, which the DA would not understand.

With the attitude of the DA, it is more relevant now that the ANC must continue to emphasise and practice the need to protect our democratic gain.
We do not expect that they UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 90 will understand the National Democratic Revolution.

Their orientation is on the minority group that is privilege and all they stand for is the security of only the privilege not of the society in totality.

With the National Democratic Revolution, we seek to resolve the contradiction of class, gender and national interest, which were posed to us by their own apartheid system.
The unrest was prompted, amongst others, by the level of poverty and unemployment in the country.

They must be aware that no amount of security will secure their privilege by stopping the hungry masses from taking from the privilege when that time comes.

Therefore, they must thank the ANC government for keeping the situation calm and under control.

The EFF’s problem is that, Chair, they suffer from the ideological concoction.
Their politics are based on ethnic division, which is an extreme ethnic nationalism.

It’s safe to say our democratic society institution execute their mandate in line with the Constitution.

It goes without saying that government of the ANC calls the values of the Constitution and does its best to deliver basic services to its people.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 91 And of course, we are a government that is elected every five years.
Therefore, we have got a programme of services that we deliver from time to time.

And we can go back and look how much we have delivered, including in the security sector.

I have heard one speaker saying that we are unable to deliver services.

Unfortunately, we are not a religious organisation.

Therefore, we can’t behave like in the Genesis that there was a word “let there be everything”, and everything was there.

That is not possible.


Hon Groenewald, the ANC is committed in strengthening safety services to ensure that we respond efficiently and effectively to the threats and continue to keep order and stability while we continue protecting our democracy.

The ANC is committed in taking the necessary step in assessing the threats to the country security and shall come up with effective responses to those threats.
One of this measures is to intensify the public policing and make sure there is more police recruited as we have heard from the announcement that the SA Police Service will be recruiting 12 000 new recruits to join the ranks of the SA Police Service.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 92 The President has done his part by availing resources in that regard and ensuring that their Specialised Commercial Crime Courts, SCCC, are establish to deal with prioritised criminal cases.

We agree of course with hon Shaik Emam that we definitely must deal with the root cause of the gender-based violence, GBV, hence we are calling upon everybody to join hands to fight this demon of gender-based violence.
The government alone cannot defeat this demon.

It has been clear that there are threats to South African democracy.

These threats come in different forms.

However, their primary objective is to disregard the South African democracy.

These threats include campaigns of public violence and destruction that took place last year July - is one of them.

They are ongoing acts of theft, destruction of both private and public property and damaging of infrastructure.
The ANC in its commitment, it is committed to protect the democratic gain.

It further continues to protect the most vulnerable in our society, the women and the children.

The Democratic Violence Amendment Bill will be reinforced and close UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 93 the gap, including the elder abuse as the domestic violence and be treated with seriousness it deserves.

Gender-based violence is both criminal offence and a societal problem.
The National Strategic Plan on gender-based violence and femicide as adopted must be strengthened.

The ANC is committed in moving faster in ensuring that criminal justice system is equip to respond adequately, and if there are any gaps, they will be closed as soon as possible.

The Criminal and Related Matters Bill will ensure that those sentenced because of the gender-based violence crime and femicide will get strict sentencing and strictly bail provisions.
The Sexual Offences and Related Matters Amendment Bill will extend protection to the victims of gender-based violence.

The process of ensuring that there is peace and stability is not merely a responsibility of Police Service.

However, it is a collective effort from everyone.

And indeed, everyone has the role to play in combating crime.

It is out of this understanding that the ANC calls for everyone to contribute in the process of developing a National Security Strategy.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2022 Page: 94 The ANC continue to demonstrate its commitment to the justice system hence the President signed three legislations as I have indicated earlier on, which signifies and plays significant role in the fight against gender-based violence.

That include, harsh sentences to perpetrators and even provides support to the survivors of gender-based violence.
What is key, Chair, will be for our government that needs to be done, we understand that the fiscal situation in the country is challenge.

There is inability from the fiscal to fund the Security Cluster adequately.

Once we have achieved that, Chair, we will be able to deal with all the matters that are challenging the Security Cluster.

This rhetoric that the DA comes with, they must go back to Western Cape and do the right thing there and stop being delinquent.

I thank you, Chair.

Debate Concluded.


The Mini Plenary session rose at: 16:11.