Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698944388357.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 1 FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – NATIONAL ASSEMBLY CHAMBER ____ Members of the mini-plenary session met at Committee Room 46 at 10:00.

House Chairperson Mr S Mahomapelo took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
APPROPRIATION BILL Debate on Vote No 8 – National Treasury (State Security): The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister in the Presidency, Nomasonto Motaung and Kenny Morolong, and the Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, hon J J Maake, the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority, hon Dlakude, Members of the Joint Standing Committee UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 2 on Intelligence, the Co-ordinator of the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, NICOC, Ambassador Tony, commonly known as Gab Msimang, the leadership and management of the Security State Agency and NICOC, hon members, ladies and gentlemen ... Tshivenḓa: ... Ndi matsheloni.
English: As I take this podium to table Budget Vote 8 of the State Security Agency, and of the journey our national security system has traversed over the years, I am reminded to pay tribute to the men and women who have endeavoured to overhaul our intelligence agency from a repressive state security system into a democratic intelligence community.
In this regard, allow me to express, on behalf of the South African intelligence community and my own behalf, our sincere condolences to the family and friends of Ambassador Billy Masetlha who passed away on Sunday, 14 May 2023.
He was a South African intelligence officer, and he served this country as the second Director-General of the SA Secret UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 3 Service in a democratic South Africa between 1996 and 1999 and served as the Director-General of the National Intelligence Agency.
A freedom fighter, who led the student and youth movements as a founding member of the Congress of South African Student, commonly known as COSAS, that was instrumental in the formation of the SA Youth Congress, otherwise known as SAYCO.

A former leader of both the ANC Youth League, ANCYL, and the ANC National Executive Committee, NEC.

I have many anecdotal stories to tell about the late Ambassador Masetlha and the democratic intelligence community.
However, my memory of him is invoked because we are tabling this Budget Vote when events of the past, some of it recent, have thrown us back to grapple with the question, what are the expectations for a democratic intelligence community?
Florina Cristiana Matel and Carolyn Hallday when writing about the Role and Purpose of Intelligence in a... Business temporarily suspended at 10:08 Business Resumed at 10:14 UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 4 The CHAIPERSON (Mr S O R Mahumapelo): Is it possible to get as assurance from the IT that this problem has been sufficiently attended to and that there will be flawless proceedings.
Hon members, it has been brought to my attention that... What has been brought to my attention, hon members, is that IT is struggling with the stabilisation of connectivity.

They are requesting that we do continuation so it might stop and go.

Minister as we look forward, it’s a matter beyond our control.

Where I’m sitting here, I’m not in control at all, as far as the IT problems are concerned.
So, I can’t give a guarantee to you, Minister, that if you come back here, there will be no problems against all glitches.

Over to you, hon Minister.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, as the former IT specialist in the country, I want to request that you stick to your original decision so that they stabilize the IT and the network because, it will be very unfair on me when I’m presenting the budget speech, then I keep on being disrupted.
They can tell us in the last five or 10 minutes that we have initially taken a break.

When they get the network to stabilize, they can get support.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 5 We can help them to call the right people who can help them to give reinforcement to sort out their network problem instead of me getting disrupted, it’s unfair.
This debate would not be more effective because the members would not follow what I’m saying, and they would not make the points because it gets continuously being disrupted.

If they give us 10 minutes, we can make calls for them to be supported by the organization that supports them, which we previously led.

Thank you.

The CHAIPERSON (Mr S O R Mahumapelo): Thank you, Minister, there was another member’s hand up.

Mr D BERGMAN: Yes Chair, on a point of order.

The CHAIPERSON (Mr S O R Mahumapelo): Okay.


Who is that?

Mr D BERGMAN: Hon Bergman.

The CHAIPERSON (Mr S O R Mahumapelo): Oh, hon Bergman, what is the issue?

Mr D BERGMAN: Your favourite.


Chair, I just want to request that maybe what we should be doing possibly, the people online UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 6 maybe move to Forestry then we scrap the online parts of this debate, so that we don’t delay any further.

The CHAIPERSON (Mr S O R Mahumapelo): Well, you are not very clear, but I’m not an IT specialist, so, we will see the best we can do with your proposal.
What we will do under the circumstances, hon members, I think, let’s suspend the proceedings for a full 10 minutes so that our staff here can go to IT and get an assurance from IT whether they have been able to re-establish the connection.

Yes, they’ve done that, but assurance that it will not be destabilized again.

So, for 10 minutes, we are suspending the proceedings of the House.

We will resume the proceedings in 10 minutes.

Thank you for your understanding, hon members.


We can move around for health reasons.

Business Suspended at 10:23 for 10 min.

Business Resumed at 10:42.

The CHAIPERSON (Mr S O R Mahumapelo): ...

[Inaudible.]

following the proceedings of this budget debate, the media and UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 7 everyone else, it was beyond our control.
An apology to you, hon members, and we also want to thank you for your patience.

We now have an assurance from the information technology, IT, section that the system is back, is up and running and there’ll be no glitches going forward.

Hon Minister, I think what we will then do is that you’ll have to start afresh from the beginning, and we reallocate your time which will be 25 minutes.

Therefore, over to you, hon Minister, you can now present.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Acting House Chairperson ... Tshivenḓa: ... ndi matsheloni.
English: Hon Deputy Ministers in the Presidency, Nomasonto Motaung, and Kenny Morolong, the Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, hon J J Jerome Maake, the Deputy Chief Whip, hon Dorries Dlakude, the hon members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, the co-ordinator of the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, who is also acting director-general today, Ambassador Tony Gab UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 8 Msimang, the executive team of State Security Agency and Nicoc, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, as I take this podium to table Budget Vote 8 of the State Security Agency, I’m reminded of the journey our national security system has traversed over the years.
I am reminder to pay tribute to the men and women who have endeavoured to overhaul our intelligence agency from a repressive state security system into democratic intelligence community.

In this regard, allow me to express on behalf of the South African intelligence community and my own behalf, our sincere condolences to the family and friends of Ambassador Billy Masetlha who passed away on Sunday 14 May 2023.
He was a South African intelligence officer, and he served this country as the second Director-General of the SA Secret Service in a democratic South Africa in 1996 to 1999, and also served as the Director-General of the National Intelligence Agency.
A freedom fighter who led the student and youth movements as a founding member of the Congress of SA Student, Cosas, that was instrumental in the formation of the SA Youth Congress, Sayco, and a former leader of both the ANC Youth League and the African National Congress National Executive Committee.
I have many anecdotal stories to tell about the late Ambassador Billy UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 9 Masetlha and the democratic intelligence community.

However, my memory of him is invoked because we are tabling this Budget Vote when events of the past, some of it recent, have thrown us back to grapple with the question of what the expectations for a democratic intelligence community are.
Florina Cristiana Matei and Carolyn Halladay when writing about the Role and Purpose of Intelligence in a Democracy contend that, I quote: Even the most successful democracies face a conundrum in regard to the intelligence function because whereas democracy calls for political neutrality, transparency, and accountability, effective intelligence agencies must operate in secrecy.
It is the balance between transparency and accountability on the one hand, and the effectiveness of the State Security Agency that we seek to restore, in this regard.
To manage the trade-offs, we are resetting frameworks to manage the work of the State Security Agency at three levels: first, being the process by which certain types of information, for example, security threats, strategic threat estimates or national UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 10 intelligence estimates, future capabilities projections, indication and early warning systems, amongst others, are required and requested, collected, analysed, and disseminated to decision and policy-makers.
Second, it is the organisation or the units that execute the intelligence functions including interagency arrangements.

We will give attention to the distinction between strategic units, operational units and tactical ones.

And third, being the product that is distributed to decision and policy-makers.

To give effect to these and to put in place the requisite institutional arrangements, Cabinet will in the coming week consider the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill for submission to Parliament.
Amongst others, the Bill seeks to: (a) restructure the intelligence services to provide an institutional architecture that enables effectiveness and efficiency and establish the domestic intelligence service and the foreign intelligence service; (b) remedy the defects on the functioning of the signals intelligence capacity as confirmed by the Constitutional Court; (c) address the weaknesses identified through Financial Action Task Force, FATF, process including measures to combat money laundering and terrorist financing by empowering the national security UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 11 structures to investigate and conduct security assessment if a person or institution is of national security interest; (d) strengthen measures to regulate and co-ordinate the private security industry as part of a broader national security approach; and (e) put in place measures to regulate the conduct of former members of the service and others with access to intelligence information.
Hon members, the proposals in the Bill were benchmarked with legislations in other jurisdictions whilst upholding the context and principles of our Constitution.
In addition, and in acknowledgment of the critical and central role that of Nicoc in matters of national security, it remains our priority to strengthen and appropriately align the capacity of the office of the Co-ordinator for Intelligence, in line with the recommendations of the High-Level Review Panel as well as the Expert Panel Report on the July 2021 unrest.

Such intervention will drastically buttress Nicoc’s ability and capability to deliver on its mandate.
On the security environment front, as we are reorganising the institutional arrangements including through the legislative amendment process, I have just referred to earlier, our UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 12 country is faced with multiple challenges that may pose national security threat.

First, is the crime and corruption.

Crime and corruption are threatening to reach endemic levels.
These ranges from organised crime, transnational crimes, petty crime and threats to community safety as characterised by high levels of gender-based violence and femicides.

The nature of the crimes in South Africa point to a problem that must be addressed holistically and not only through law enforcement measures.

The partnerships with communities to rebuild a societal framing that is anticorruption and anticrime has become urgent.
As the police service and community leaders work to establish community policing forums at every village, townships and suburbs, the community must frown upon the celebration and hero-worshipping of criminals in communities and refuse to pay bribes to receive a government service, including the paying of cold drink to the traffic officers when we have violated road traffic laws.
At an enforcement law level, we have learnt many lessons through the events of July 2021 riots and paramount to this, it is the value of integrated law enforcement and partnerships with both private sector and communities.

The capacity of an integrated law UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 13 enforcement service and effective partnerships was demonstrated during the 20 March 2023 protest action.
In this regard, we are integrating law enforcement operations to become intelligence-driven and prosecution-focused, whilst the police lead the execution.

Our priority in this regard, is to urgently combat organised crime in all its form and content, improve community and public safety, and restore a conducive environment for industry to conduct business without fearing the possibility of extortionists.
In addition, the State Security Agency continues to work with other law enforcement agencies to implement the national anticorruption strategy, and we will continue to support the work of National Anti-Corruption Advisory Council, Nacac, as it relates to our mandate.

The second challenge is the electricity shortage or load shedding.

Regular load shedding at high stages will continue to have a severe impact on the economy and any other government initiatives aimed at advancing the developmental agenda.
It also puts a dent on government’s efforts to attract and unlock the much-needed foreign and domestic investments to revitalise the sluggish economy.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 14 Furthermore, continued severe load shedding creates an environment for criminal elements to operate in the cover of darkness.
The combination and effect of these negative factors have the potential to lead to a socially and politically unstable environment by making communities and civil society at large susceptible to mobilisation against government by elements with nefarious agendas.

Given the centrality of Eskom to South Africa’s electricity generation, transmission and distribution, a negative impact on its operations poses a grave threat to the economic security of this country.
Thus, any threat to the viability and the operation of Eskom is accorded the requisite priority in terms of our work.

It is against this backdrop that the security structures have identified key threats against the performance of Eskom requiring urgent attention or intervention under the auspices of National Energy Crisis Committee, Necom.
I must emphasise that the establishment of the Necom, the activation of the National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structures, Natjoints, on energy, and the appointment of the Minister responsible for electricity provides a direct response to the challenge of energy security, which should soon yield tangible results.
Whilst these and the assurance by UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 15 Eskom that the country will not face an electricity blackout, signify an improvement to the threat picture, the intelligence services has advised that a permanent solution to the electricity crisis is required as a matter of urgency.
Unemployment, there is an old proverb that says, “an idle mind is a devil’s workshop”, more so when the idleness is a result of lack of opportunities for young and energetic members of society.

It is important to note that initiatives to address unemployment are starting to bear fruits.

For the sixth consecutive quarter, the Quarterly Labour Force Survey has reported an increase in the number of employed persons with more provinces and sectors contributing to the employment creation.
We have also noticed trends in economic infrastructure crimes which can be deemed deliberate acts of sabotage.

We continue to both monitor and work with other law enforcement agencies to prevent such acts of sabotage.

The FATF greylisting, while the greylisting of South Africa by the Financial Action Task Force commonly known as FATF is a cause for concern, it has however, assisted the government to intensify its efforts towards strengthening interventions against money laundering and terrorism financing.
Amongst UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 16 noted measures undertaken is the finalisation of the national risk assessment, approval of the national counterterrorism strategy, the enactment of the Anti-Money Laundering and Combatting Terrorism Financing General Laws Amendment Act, as well as the Protection of Constitutional Democracy Against Terrorism and Related Activities Amendment Act.
Through the co-ordination of the intelligence security structures at the Nicoc level, these interventions have significantly improved the threat picture, particularly on matters of illicit economy, terrorism and money laundering, amongst others.
Furthermore, State Security Agency together with other law enforcement agencies continue to develop and implement other measures to ensure that South Africa’s territory is not used to plan, facilitate or carry out acts of terrorism and acquire, move, store and use funds in support of terrorism.
The National Intelligence Estimates, while there are these threats facing our country, the Nicoc through the National Intelligence Estimate, NIE, has assured us that the various government’s response continues to mitigate against the threats and drastically altered the threat landscape in a positive way.
In addition, law enforcement agencies have their finger on the pulse of any situation that may threaten UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 17 national security.
However, more still needs to be done to assure conditions of safety and security, particularly on the levers that drive economic growth such energy security, food security and water security in the backdrop of disasters that befell our country since 2020 such as the coronavirus disease 2019, Covid-19, pandemic, the July 2021 unrest, catastrophic floods, the energy crisis and the impact of the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

Co-operation with foreign intelligence services.


In my language they say ... Tshivenḓa: ... kholomo dzi tshi lwa, hu fa hatsi.

English: There is a false impression that is created that this government has adopted an anti-United States of America, USA, posture.

I must clearly indicate that we have co-operation agreements with the USA on areas of intelligence sharing, training, cybersecurity, counterterrorism, amongst others.
As recent as March 2023, a high-level delegation represented at the highest level was in the USA and this was a follow-up to UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 18 the visit by the United States, US, counterparts in November of 2022.

We must also assure South Africans that genuine intelligence from the USA or South Africa, in each other’s territories, is shared through proper channels and at all material times.
South Africans must remember that the USA remains South Africa’s largest trading partner and we value that relationship highly.

A Better Africa, the African Union’s aspiration for a silencing the guns remain threatened with the resurgence of conflicts in Eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo, DRC, Mozambique and Sudan, amongst others.
In addition, to derailing the economic development of our continent, these conflicts pose a threat to South Africa’s national security as this will exacerbate our immigration challenges and increase the burden on the services the state provide to citizens and refugees.

We must also acknowledge that the movement of refugees also include the movement of unsavoury elements such as criminals and terrorists.
We are continuing to work to ensure that we protect the territorial integrity of South Africa, and the activation of the Border Management Authority, BMA, to operate as an independent entity as from the 1st of April 2023, is major progress in the effective management of UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 19 immigration in our country.
The collaboration of the BMA with the intelligence structures has intensified our strategic response to challenges of border security and migration in order to safeguard our sovereignty and territorial integrity.

In addition, the intelligence service continues to support the efforts of our government in dispute resolution initiatives and the evacuation of our citizens whenever it is necessary.
Hon members, in trying to respond to the challenges of the 21st century, the agency has a duty to evolve through innovation and modernisation, and to invest in skills and resources that are commensurate with the challenges of the times.

It is important to internalise and appreciate the fact that the state security is the first and the last point of security of the country.
As a result, we have begun with the process of professionalising, repositioning and building the capacity of the agency to mitigate against global and domestic security threats and be on par with our global counterparts.

This process will entail, modernising of our systems, improving our services and operations, skills training and development, address capacity challenges through recruiting young professionals and broaden our skills base.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 20 Our staff is our main assets, we will improve staff wellness to ensure that the agency still remain the employer of choice within government.

This includes, amongst others, adopting new technologies, investing in state-of-the-art infrastructure and adopting new and innovative methods of conducting our trade.
These initiatives will also include the recruitment and training of young people into the fold of intelligence because as the saying goes “the future is young”.

Our focus on young cadets is predominantly in the areas of the skills of the future such data mining, analytics and artificial intelligence, amongst others.

I am honoured to report that Inspector-General of Intelligence has assured me that their office has put measures in place to ensure effective oversight of the services.
He is finalising methodologies and frameworks to support and monitor the work of the intelligence services across the board.

Hon members, as we present this budget to yourself, we are confident that the future of South Africa remains safe.
Our responsibility is to ensure the security of our people, is to keep the South Africa, in general, as a safe place for business, for residents and for all as it was aspired by our UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 21 forbearers who aspired for a prosperous, nonsexist, nonracial and democratic South Africa.
In doing our work we also co- operate with other state agencies to advance and protect our national interest, proactive and responsive intelligence is key to ensure that the safety and wellness of our citizens.

The global security threats are multifaceted and dynamic and that require co-operation amongst nation states.
In mitigating transnational threats such as terrorism, cyber security, organised crime and human trafficking, illicit financial flows, transborder crimes such as vehicle theft, illicit cigarette smuggling, wildlife crime and drug trafficking, amongst others.

We will continue to strengthen our co- operation at a regional level, continental and global level.

We have memorandums of understandings and bilateral co- operation with a number of countries across the globe.
This includes China, Russia, Italy, Germany, I’ve already mentioned our co-operation with the United States of America.

In the coming years and decades, and in addition to the raging wars and conflicts around the world, humanity will face more intense and cascading global challenges ranging from disease to climate change, and the disruptions from new technologies and financial crises.
These challenges will repeatedly test UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 22 the resilience and adaptability of communities, states, and the international system, often exceeding the capacity of existing systems and methods.

Unfortunately, South Africa will not be immune and is not immune to these threats.
This calls on nations around the world not only to collaborate in programmes to respond to these challenges but to find new ways and strategies to mitigate against the escalation and proliferation of the catastrophes.

As part of the global community, we must continue to monitor such global events to ensure that our national interest including our security is protected and advanced.
The global transition from unipolar to the multipolar world also remains our focus area and we have also noted the shift from multipolar to a unipolar society.

However, we need to always remain vigilant for the survival of our state and the sovereignty of our state.

In this regard, we will ensure that we position ourselves and our national interest in the manner that, whatever outcomes of these global shifts, we remain ahead of the curve.
The ongoing war in Ukraine presents a number of challenges globally and South Africa has not been spared from it.

In the past few UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 23 months since the outbreak of the war South Africa has been impacted by the rise of energy prices, food, inflation, interest rates, thus impacting on the cost of living of our people.
South Africa will continue to support the efforts to end the conflict between Russia and Ukraine and as a country and a global player, we believe that such a conflict should be ended through peaceful negotiations and engagement, and not through South Africa taking sides.
I would like to conclusion as I table this budget for the House to deliberate on and quote our late and first President of the democratic South Africa, President Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela: Safety and security don not just happen; they are the results of collective consensus and public investment.

We owe our children, the most vulnerable citizens in our society, a life free of violence and fear.
I’ll like to extend my words of appreciations to members of the Standing Committee on Intelligence for the work they continued to do to support our efforts all the time and to give us guidance and appeal to the continued partnership as we UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 24 do the last stretch of this sixth administration.
I’ll like to take the opportunity to thank the management of the State Security Agency and Nicoc in the support they continued to do to offer the Ministry support and the work that we do to keep our country safe.

I’ll also like to thank the staff of both Nicoc and State Security Agency and the entirety of the law enforcement agencies that have continued to partner with us to ensure that we keep South Africa safe.
As we move into the last leg and our last lap of our sixth administration the responsibility to keep South Africa safe has not become less important, it actual terms it has taken a podium of highest in becoming important in assuring the prosperity of our country.

Hon Acting House Chairperson, I thank you.

Tshivenḓa: Ndo livhuwa.

Xitsonga: Ndza khensa.

Sepedi: UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Ke a leboga.

[Tsenoganong.]
[Tsenoganong.]

Page: 25 Mr J J MAAKE: Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Minister, Deputy Ministers, officials from the agency, my colleagues, and everybody else.

Chairperson, every year around this time we do Budget Votes.

We all know how important this is for the functioning of the government departments.

But in our debates we seem to be repeating whatever we said the previous years.
Which means that even if there are some improvements in the service delivery by the departments, the progress is somehow slow.

The Constitution of this country – which by the way is one of the best in the whole world – is the basic legislation that governs security services.

Chapter 11 of the Constitution lays out the principles governing national security and also provides for the establishment, structuring, and conduct of the security services, encompassing intelligence, defence, and police services.
Section 198 prescribes that the following principles, among others, govern national security in the country.

National security must reflect the resolve of South Africans as UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 26 individuals and as a nation to live as equals, to live in peace and harmony, to be free from fear and want, and to seek a better life.
The resolve to live in peace and harmony precludes any South African citizen from participating conflict, nationally or internationally, except as provided in terms of the constitution or national legislation.

National security must be pursued in compliance with the law, including international law, and national security subject to the authority of Parliament and the national executive.
The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, is established in terms of Section 2 of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act of 1994.

The purpose of the committee is to perform an oversight function over the intelligence and counter-intelligence functions of the services, which includes State Security Agency, SSA, the Defence Intelligence Division of the South African National Defence Force, SANDF-ID, the SA Police Service, SAPSCI, which is known as Crime Intelligence.
Even though not categorically mentioned in the Act, the committee also performs oversight on the Financial Intelligence Centre.

Intelligence Centre.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 27 Section 3 of the Oversight Act provides that the committee amongst others in exercising the oversight responsibility obtain, audit, and other reports from the Auditor-General and consider financial services.
Consider, review, and make recommendations about co-operation, rationalization, and demarcation of intelligence function performed by the services.

Refer any matter in relation to an intelligence activity which the committee regards as relevant to the promotion and respect of the Bill of Rights to the South African Human Rights Commission.
The establishment of the JSCI, as opposed to what existed during the apartheid era, was to prevent the abuse of the intelligence services by the powers that be, it ensured civilian oversight of the services in a non-partisan manner.

This Budget Vote debate takes place after what has been widely termed “the July 2021 unrests.” During this unfortunate period, two provinces of our country were engulfed with wild looting and unrest, KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng.
During this time, two of our intelligence services, State Security Agency, SSA, the SAPSCI, mandated data to deal with our domestic issues were riddled with instability at senior management UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 28 level.

In the SSA, there was no permanent director-general, DG, and most of our senior managers were acting.
We are happy to announce that the situation has changed with the appointment of Ambassador Thembi Majola as the DG.

As the JSCI, we have complete confidence in her ability to lead the SSA into greater heights.

The SANDF-ID must gather, correlate, evaluate, and use strategic intelligence for purposes of ensuring national security.

The cutting of its budget makes their work very difficult.
The High-Level Review Panel was established by President Cyril Ramaphosa in June 2018, with the key objective of enabling the reconstruction of a professional national intelligence capacity for South Africa, that will respect and uphold the Constitution and the relevant legislative prescripts.

To this end, the High-Level Review Panel recommended, among other matters, an architectural review of the intelligence community.
This review included the following: The separation of the SSA into two services, a domestic and a foreign service, with maximum or preferably total separation.

Pending due delays in tabling the General Intelligence Law Amendment Bill, GILA Bill.

My comrade, the hon Dlakude, will elucidate UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 29 more on what we have done in this regard.
And our plan of action in the JSCI on behalf of Parliament.

Locating the co-ordinator for intelligence and the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, NICOC, analysis arm in the Office of the Presidency.

NICOC now plays a crucial role in the National Security Council established by the President.
Formally re-establishing a National Security Council established in December 2019, refining the mandates of the intelligence departments, including SANDF-ID and SAPSCI, to ensure minimum duplication and maximum co-ordination, pending due to delays in the tabling of the GILA Bill.
As the implementation of recommendations of the High-Level Panel Report has been done in tandem with the implementation of recommendations made in the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture, Corruption and Fraud in the Public Sector including Organs of State, popularly known as the Zondo Commission or State Capture Commission Reports.

Several findings were made with regard to intelligence services.

Most of these were already known to the JSCI.


As a UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 30 committee, we were already hard at work, and the findings were in the main similar to those made by the High-Level Review Panel report, the Chief Justice’s acknowledgement of the committee’s work bears testament.

Once the report was finalized and handed to the President, he tabled his implementation plan to Parliament.
On 31 January 2023, Parliament referred the implementation plan of the executive to various committees, including the JSCI.

Committees are required to report back to Parliament on a quarterly basis.
We are in the process of ensuring that our report is consistent with Section 6(3) of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, which states that and I quote: Nothing shall be included in any report of the committee, the inclusion of which will be more harmful to the national security than its exclusion will be to the national interest.

Before tabling to Parliament.

I think most people are not satisfied by that quote.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 31 I would like to now focus on 2023-24 Budget Vote for SSA and defence intelligence, while I will leave the SAPSCI to my comrades.

At the JSCI, we commend the SSA, DI and SAPSCI on the submission of well-crafted Annual Performance Plans, APPS.
We have come a long way, and finally, we have APPs that are compliant with prescripts and follow the smart principle as contained in the National Treasury regulations.

The APPs of this financial year illustrate the importance of Parliament’s work as the custodian of oversight accountability.

Through our critical, robust engagement, the SSA, SAPSCI, and SANDF-ID submitted APPs and budgets, which are compliant with all relevant national planning prescripts.
We are pleased to report that the filling of critical leadership positions is beginning to yield stability within the service.

Against this background, the SSA has repositioned itself to ensure that it can provide critical intelligence to decision-makers, and that intelligence is central to all government planning.

I’m looking at my time.

For SANDF-ID, we are pleased that the long outstanding issue of its headquarters has been resolved.
We thank the Minister UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 32 of Defense and Military Veterans and the former Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure for listening to the concerns of the JSCI and coming up with workable solutions for the headquarters for SANDF-ID.

We are pleased to report that SANDF-ID will move into its new headquarters during the second quarter of this financial year.
We are, however, concerned with the continued shrinking of the South African National Defence Force budget.

And the SANDF-ID as a component, we have noted that SANDF is continuing with its ordered commitments despite the shrinking budget.

The shrinking budget has impacted on SANDF’s readiness and its threat, and it’s a threat to national security and the territorial integrity of our country.
The lack of resources has impacted on the implementation of the 2015 Defence Review, which would have addressed the critical state of decline of the SANDF through the proposed milestone to rebuild the force.

During the Sixth Parliament term, a stagnation in the defence allocation has been observed, resulting in a real percentage reduction in the defence allocation.
The allocation to Department of Defence, DoD, has grown only marginally from R47 UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 33 billion to R51 billion in 2023.

In real terms, as adjusted for inflation, this signifies a significant reduction in the country’s defence allocation over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF.
The defence allocation is expected to grow by only 0,9%, signifying a continued real percentage reduction in the allocation.

South Africa’s defence spending falls well below the norm adopted by many states of 2% of the gross domestic product, GDP, spending on defence.

South Africa also compares poorly in regional terms in terms of defense spending as a percentage of GDP with the current defence allocation comprising only 0,73% of the GDP.
The decreased budget allocation occurs while the employment of SANDF continues.

Examples of the increased utilization of SANDF include the 2018 and 2019 employment of SANDF engineers to address the pollution of the Vaal River.

The the 2019 employment with the SA Police Service to combat crime in the Western Cape.

Several large scale employments in 2020 and 2021 as part of efforts to combat the COVID-19 pandemic.
Large scale employment in 2021 to Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal in UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 34 response to widespread civil unrest and the 2022 employment of KwaZulu-Natal following flooding in the province.
The above employments are additional to SANDF’s spending deployment for border safeguarding of South Africa’s land borders, as well as employment of SANDF outside South African Republic of Congo and Mozambique amongst others.

My time is finished.

The ANC presents the budget.

Thank you.

Ms D KOHLER: House Chairperson, being made the Minister in charge of state security seems to me to be a part time job.
Sometimes they last in their position as much as a year, sometimes a few months, but it is commonly accepted that the moment they start to both understand and do the job and show any inclination to do the right thing to claw back the hundreds of millions looted via the State Security Agency, out they go.

That’s just a reality check for our latest Minister in case she imagines that anything she does will be valued or indeed that she will be in that position next year after the election.
But then again, none of you will.

It took years to complete the High-Level Review Panel report in which we first saw proof of what an open secret was, the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 35 looting via the State Security Agency.

Then came the Zondo commission revelations, and then nothing.

Where is our money?

We need it.


Our schools, clinics, hospitals, police stations, roads, bridges, sewage systems and of course we have no electricity as it is all collapsing.

Not a single cent of those billions has been recovered.

I said it a year ago, and let me say it again, I've laid criminal charges twice against Arthur Fraser in 2009 and in 2022.
Well, I may as well have gone to watch the Guardians of the Galaxy, because there's more action in that than we've seen against state capture since the Zondo commission.

Instead of occupying a Correctional Services cell, Fraser was saved by our Phala Phala prince and made the boss of Correctional Services using that position to release Jacob Zuma.

Then, in a move worthy of the longest running soap opera in the world, when refused a second term, he threw the President under the couch.
You can’t make this stuff up.

Despite the various methods of looting widely discussed, and even immortalised in black and white in The President's Keepers by Jacques Pauw, still Fraser walks free, and the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 36 money has disappeared like service delivery in an ANC-run metro.

The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence is invisible.
You don’t know when we meet, what we discuss, where we go and who we grill.

There are attempts made by some in Parliament to force us to reveal agendas and other details, but the answer is, no.

This committee never leaks.

Which means we are told literal state secrets.

Then it is then up to us to decide what to do with them.

But what I can tell you is that this committee has finally come of age and has drawn a line in the sand.
We have clawed in permanent and utterly brilliant staff despite every effort made to stop that happening.

Today, departments that try to slip dangerous moves past us, get sent packing.

Departments that ignore our instructions are hauled over the coals, those without top secret security clearance are turned away at the door and deadlines are demanded.

This is why I live in hope that someone somewhere sometimes will actually face the music for the billions stolen.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 37 Neither Crime nor Defence intelligence have regulations – this after 25 years.

That was the responsibility of the many Ministers.

Some seven or so in the past few years, every one of whom failed to oversee their creation.

In contrast when we asked the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, to draw up the long-awaited regulations, the did them.
They all come to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI.

On another positive note we went through the interviews for the Inspector-General of Intelligence done in public.

I was particularly pleased that the best person for the job was appointed, Imtiaz Fazel, and he is doing a sterling job.

He steps in where the committee may not.

Politics doesn’t enter the room when we do.


We work as a team – three of us from the DA – that’s me, the hon Dirk Stubbe and from the NCOP the Cathy Labuschne together with the ANC.

No other parties bother to attend.

The security of our country is our united goal.


Equally, we speak as one in our condemnation of for example, the Treasury when it slashes maintenance budgets by two-thirds UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 38 then tut tutts when the presidential plane can’t take off.

Again, you can’t have it both ways.

You can’t take a penknife to a gun fight.


You can’t send dedicated personnel into dangerous situations with antiquated equipment.

Let’s see the big wigs of the Treasury use 3G from last century while the criminal syndicates use 5G and now 6G.

This is the sort of thing our Crime Intelligence, Defence Intelligence and the State Security personnel are having to deal with.

This is no secret; it’s spoken about openly and it is a crying shame.
At the Zondo commission, we heard how suitcases stuffed with money walked out the door of the State Security Agency.

We all know about the countless millions looted, and we today hear of antiquated equipment across our security cluster.

Join the dots.

Despite the High-Level Panel Review report, despite the multimillion rand Zondo commission, those behind the looting are free as birds.

The High-Level Review Panel report has it been fully implemented since 2018?

I’m sure you can guess the answer to that.


And you wonder why the South African are sceptical every UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 39 time a commission is established to form a subcommittee to investigate the possibility of a working group aimed at looking into whether or not corruption is an issue.

Think about it.

If the outcomes of these reports and commissions are left untouched long enough, they gather dust.
Public and media interest wanes, parliamentary terms end, Members of Parliament, MPs, leave or are moved to new portfolios or into government, and then what?

Mission accomplished!

I see so many dedicated South Africans come before this committee those in Defence Intelligence never complain although their workload is trebled and their budget slashed.

They never, ever complain.


The State Security Agency grinds along and as far as we are allowed to know does its best despite the Amabungane judgement and Crime Intelligence – well it has never been the same since General Jacobs was removed by the last Police Commissioner.

Indeed, it’s a shadow of its former self, and will take years to recover.
But we can’t grill the new National Police Commissioner about it, because as the whole country knows that he doesn’t have clearance and he can’t even come into the building.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 40 Around the world equivalent agencies are accountable to congress or the senate or various houses, yet here nothing.

Once a year there is a redacted report handed to Parliament, and that’s about it.
I often think that the veil of secrecy should be lifted.

It’s how we come to be accused of providing arms to Russia.

Things like that dodge our completely.

Presumably, the MPs are supposed to believe.

One of those entities we oversee had anything to do about it?

Any knowledge of it at all.

I believe massive amount is done without our knowledge as a committee - hidden from us, hidden from you.
Our strange and invisible committee is not a nice to have it is crucial to our nation and our reputation globally.

That’s how we come to be accused of providing arms to Russia…things like that dodge our committee completely.

And presumably we as Members Of Parliament, MPs, are supposed to believe that not one of the entities we do oversight over, had any knowledge of this business?

I believe a massive amount is done without the knowledge of this committee – hidden from you and hidden from us.
Although there may be one or two in the National Assembly who had UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 41 knowledge of the Simonstown deal and so much more, at this stage it’s hidden away.

However, slowly but surely this committee is making headway.

We deal with the uncomfortable issues, so you don’t have to.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Ms N N CHIRWA: Chairperson, greetings to the commander-in- chief of the EFF Julius Sello Malema, deputy president Nyiko Shivambu, officials, commissars and fighters of the emancipation movement, today like every other Friday as declared by the EFF, is the EFF red Friday.
We encourage all our people, especially young people who are not registered to vote to do so expeditiously for we have an appointment with removing the ANC government from power next year at the most pivotal elections since 1994 in ensuring that the red flags go up at the Union Buildings in the year 2024.
House Chair, in rejecting this budget we want to take this opportunity to reflect broadly on the state of our intelligent unit in this country despite the slow pace in transforming the broken State Security Agency since this administration began in 2028, particularly the march-needed separation of the domestic and foreign branches and dismantle the chances of the executive abuse that we attained under the previous administration.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 42 State Security still seems largely purposeless and unproductive.

After an embarrassing display of an incompetent following the July unrest in 2021 our intelligence agencies have still to unlock the several infiltrations, misinformation and in formation peddlers within its own ranks.
However, what should worry South Africans is the continued rise and growth of sophisticated organised crime which has recently been revealed by the Thabo Bester’s escape from prison.

There is growing evidence that criminals through highly placed and important personnel within the Correctional Services continue to facilitate sophisticated criminal operations that undermine the credibility of the entire criminal justice system.
Criminals are able to leave maximum security prisons to perform heinous crimes and then come back to their prison cells without any trace.

This is the biggest security breach and would result in a general populous losing total confidence in the criminal justice system.

The Thabo Bester’s escape above everything else tells us that we do not have intelligence agencies that are able to pick up and prevent such breaches to our national security.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 43 Another related aspect of this phenomenon is the growing power of assignation networks in our country.

These networks extend to the prison systems.

One can today rely on a convicted criminal serving a long sentence in a maximum facility prison to perform an assassination outside and then go back inside the prison.
It is also a fact that these assassination networks are commanded or even used by some of which are in the top echelons of the security forces to settle their own differences amongst themselves and at times to eliminate their own opponents.

A country with an inability to neutralise organised assassination networks is a country with a total dysfunctional and infiltrated intelligence capability.
In addition, the growing power of criminal called tsotsi gangs that operate in pursuit of the parasitic local government tender system are going to erode services delivery in many communities across the country.

It is also a fact that there are many organised gangs masquerading as the community demanding 30% from any local government contractor who must provide services in the given community.
These gangs enrich themselves by blocking progress to deliver service in exchange for pure bribes that have nothing to do with that communities which reveal some, and not all of the service delivery service UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 44 protest as disingenuous.
Our intelligence agencies have denigrated as they cannot predict an and totally undermine the efforts of these activities so as to allow service delivery to be able to occur.

In fact, this is one of the many key reasons that the EFF believes in building and turn out state capacity so as not rely on the tender system to deliver services.

We must then ask, what is the money dedicated to our intelligence agencies really doing?
What do majority of the people at the State Security Agency, crime intelligence and the associate institutions get paid to do?

The Phala Phala saga may carry answers for us, the Joint Standing Committee On Intelligence refused to hold an open investigation inquiry into the Phala Phala matter in which serious allegations of abuse of the very same agencies by the sitting President were made.
One more Parliament failed to hold the executive accountable, choosing instead to shield the President from scrutiny and pretend as if it is business as usual.

This attitude is also seen with the problem of electricity crisis.

Who have allowed a total disabling of Eskom in a general plan to privatise it.
The greatest national security UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 45 that this country has ever seen since the 1980s.

The multiple compounding stages of load shedding all work towards one goal, to surrender Eskom to private hands at the cost of the stability of South Africa itself.

And our intelligence agencies and all other institutions related to it are either complicity or are completely clueless about it.
That is why we reject this report.

Inkosi E M BUTHELEZI: Chair, ... IsiZulu: ... iqembu leNkatha ... [Akuzwakali] ... kaMgcinimafa ekuqinisekiseni imizamo yonke yokulwisana nezenzo zobugebengu okuthinta izimali nezindlela eziningi zokubambisana nezihllaka eziqondene ukuze kunqotshwe ngokupheleleyo udaba lokushushunjiswa kwezinkece, ubuphekulazikhuni kanye nezenzo zobugebengu.

English: We, therefore, welcome the additional funds allocated to programme 9 of the National Treasury’s budget.
IsiZulu: UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 46 Nokho, Sihlalo, izenzo zobugebengu kuyinto ebeka izwe lethu engcupheni.

Sekuyinto ejwayelekile kakhulu ubugebengu obuhleliwe nokufanele umnyango oqondene njengalo ukugweme ngaphambi kokuba kwenzeke.
Iqiniso ngelithi ngeke vele kungabi lula ezigelekeqeni ukuthi zingabi ... English: ... in these shadowy activities and crimes if ... IsiZulu: ... izinhlaka ezimiselwe ukubhekana ngqo nazo zibonakala zixega futhi zinganikezwa usizo olufanele eziludingayo.
English: If our leaders are embroiled in scandal after scandal in laundering money, corruption and bogus procurement deals and becoming tenderpreneurs without any consequences for their actions, how do we expect ordinary South Africans to take a stand against corruption and unlawful activities?
IsiZulu: Nokho Sihlalo lo mnyango unomthwalo omkhulu emahlombe awo hhayi nje ukufeza lokho okumele ukwenze kodwa kakhulu UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 47 ukubuyisa isithunzi sawo nethemba ezakhamuzini zakuleli ngoba inking ukuthi abantu bakithi sebebona izwe lethu njengezwe elingenawo umthetho, yikwaMachangca impunzi idla emini.
Njengoba Sihlalo noNgqongqoshe eqeda ukusha la ukuthi benza imizamo yokulawula indlela yokuziphatha kwezinkampani zokuphepha ezizimele nokuyinto encomekayo kodwa ngakolunye uhlangothi kukhomba ukuthi uma abantu bakithi bethemba ukuzivikela bona kuyasho ukuthi izwe lethu selehlulekile abasenakho ukuthi balethembe.
Nokho Sihlalo ... English: ... we have seen the major failures of state security before in proactive actions against cybercrimes for instance and stopping the movement of funds earmarked to be washed, evading taxes through offshore banks and companies and stopping the funding of illicit trade and multiple high-value items.
What we need the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, Fica, to do is to stop placing the administrative burden on the nonfinancial accountable institutions as this encompasses millions of small, medium and micro businesses from conducting their business.

This must be left to banks and financial and judicial institutions.
The institutions are in far better positions to report, investigate and assist Treasury and state UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 48 security in stopping illicit flows of funds at the source.

The failing of our legislation above and beyond that of trying its level best to combat financial criminality ... we have unfortunately exposed ordinary South Africans to get involved in these crimes.
Ordinary South Africans with large sums of money flowing from their accounts are not being closely monitored.

For example, people like ourselves politicians, are deemed as criminally exposed and every movement in our accounts, for example, a lousy amount of R5 000 is closely monitored and you will be called to account while thousands of millions are being transferred by ordinary South Africans because less accountability is expected from them.
We must address this with the urgency it deserves to stop this cancer that is engulfing our country.

The IFP, therefore, Chairperson, supports the budget.

Thank you very much.

Mr D J STUBBE: Chairperson, for the financial year 2022-2023 the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence aligned the outcome of its oversight mandate with the recommendations of the High Level Review Panel Report and the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into State Capture findings.
Proclamation 59 of 2009 which was issued by former President Zuma gave rise to the amalgamation of the National Intelligence Agency, NIA, and UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 49 the SA Secret Service, SASS into the State Security Agency, SSA.

In 2009 the concept of state security was introduced and shifted the focus from national security and the wellbeing and security of the people to the protection of the state.
Since then the service went into a downward spiral where the environment became toxic which together with the abuse of state resources and finances gave rise to self-interest and enrichment together with the abuse of state resources and finances.

This situation necessitated the establishment of the High Level Panel Report to enable the reconstruction of a professional national intelligence capability that would respect and uphold the Constitution.
State Capture necessitated a Judicial Commission of Inquiry and together with the High Level Review Panel findings, the Commission highlighted some of the following issues with recommendations to Parliament such as; Ministers’ involvement in operational issues; Illegal operations by the SSA that actively further the interest of the ruling party and operation by the Special Operations Unit, SOU, of the SSA under ambassador Thulani Dlomo; A number of concerning cash withdrawals were noted such as; R38,5 million by Minister Mahlobo; R9,2 million with no UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 50 verification also by Minister Mahlobo; Cash stolen to the amount of R145 million; The Principal Agent Network of Arthur Fraser and their covert operations amounting to R225 million; Disappearance of firearms, including rifles and sub-machine guns under the watch of Fraser by Thulani Dlomo as head of the SOU; Irregular Recruitments and appointments to the service; Abuse of the vetting system, Dlomo established a parallel vetting system that was unlawful with regards to the National Strategic Intelligence Act 39 of 1994.
The commission also made recommendations with direct bearing on the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence such as Parliament considering the amendment of Section 6(1) of the Intelligence Oversight Act 40 of 1994, which requires the outgoing Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence to report to Parliament on the period preceding the elections.

The introduction of a new General Intelligence Laws Amendment Act of 2013.
And the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence was also tasked to determine whether legislative changes are required to strengthen its reporting obligations.

These recommendations by the Commission resulted in the Parliament’s Implementation Plan of 3 November 2022 and was tabled on 31 January 2023.
This was the first Parliament where the Joint UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 51 Standing Committee on Intelligence has a full complement of support staff to assist the committee on issues that were overlooked in previous years.

The support staff are doing a sterling job for the committee to execute its oversight mandate.
The APPs of the services presented to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence revealed that the services are still in contravention of adherence to certain norms and standards which need to be corrected as per the Zondo Commission’s recommendations.

Since 1994 the SA Police Crime Intelligence and Defence Intelligence have had no regulations in terms of the National Strategic Intelligence Act 39 of 1994 section 2 (a) and section 6 to conduct security vetting.
We are still awaiting the finalisation of the long overdue General Intelligence Laws Amendment Act.

The Independence of the Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and the Office for Interception Centre must also still be legislated.

The poor resourcing of Foreign Stations by the SSA must also be addressed.

There is a need for urgent legislative amendments and requirements for the Secret Service accounts which are used to fund covert operations.

The fund is governed under an outdated Act.


In this regard, the SSA provided funding for the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 52 Central African Republic embassy in Pretoria which emanated from a decision by former State Security Minister Mahlobo during September 2014.

The project not only led to the purchase of a chancery, and residency but also paid for vehicles used by the embassy.
The SSA was also responsible for operational running costs and salaries of personnel at the embassy.

All of this was paid for by the taxpayer.

The project was terminated by the director- general, ambassador Majola, on 30 November 2022 after they had spent over R61 million.

The question thus arises; to what extent does secret funding still exist in the service where monies are spent on secret projects that might not be legal?
I want to express my condolences to family of the ambassador Billy Masetlha thank you as director-general of the former National Intelligence Agency.

I thank you.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Ministers, my colleagues, the family of the intelligence services, I greet you all.

Let me start by extending our sincere condolences our leader, our stalwart, the ambassador Billy Masetlha.

We salute the selfless service he did to our country.
May his soul rest in peace.

We also UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 53 extend our condolences to the family of hon Apleni, an NCOP member and a member of the EFF, may his soul rest in peace.
Hon Chairperson, this budget vote takes place at the backdrop of the implementation of the High Level Review Report recommendations as well as those of the Judicial of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture, Corruption and Fraud in the Public Sector including Organs of State.
As Parliament we are currently ceased with overseeing the Executive Plan Action Report which outlines the recourse to the recommendations made into the Judicial of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture, Corruption and Fraud in the Public Sector including Organs of State.

The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence is one of the committees which the report was referred to.
A critical finding in the High Level Review Report was that there is a need to refine the mandate of the Intelligence Services, particularly Defence Intelligence and the SA Police Service Crime Intelligence to ensure minimum application and maximum co-ordination amongst the intelligence services.
It is worth noting that General Law Amendment Bill has not been tabled in Parliament by the state security as we have previously UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 54 requested.

While we acknowledge that the Minister is doing something about this but as a Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence we have took a decision to make sure that we introduce General Law Amendment Bill as the committee bell.
We waited for quite some time hon Minister without it coming forth.

So, we cannot reverse on this decision that we have taken.

All processes are in place and we have the necessary support to do this.

We know what it is to be done on that Bill.

So, that is the decision of the committee after taking so long.

So, our aim is to make sure that by the end of this term this would have been done by the committee.
Hon Chairperson, the General Law Amendment Bill is the cornerstone of resolving most of the challenges faced by the Intelligence Services, ranging from the separation of the State Security Agency into the domestic and foreign branches and redefining the mandates of SAPSCI and DI.
Without General Law Amendment Bill, the Intelligence Services will not be able to fully implement the High Level Review Panel Report directives as well as the recommendations of the Judicial of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture, Corruption and Fraud in the Public Sector including Organs of State.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 55 We are pleased to report that most of the issues we raised in the budget vote last year, as the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence have been resolved.

Some include, instability in the SAPSCI.

The instability in the top management of the SAPSCI has been eradicated.

The instability was exacerbated by the pending appointment of the National Commissioner.
In March 2022, the President appointed General Fannie Masemola which paved the way of the appointment for the division of Commissioner of the SAPSCI.

In December 2022, Lieutenant General Dumisani Khumalo was appointed as a Division Commissioner which has insured stability in the SAPSCI to tensions between the Ministry and the SAPSCI management.
The tumultuous working relationships between the Ministry and the SAPSCI which the letter indicated in the Annual Performance Plan, APP, was a risk to its effectiveness.

This has been eradicated and we now have a fully functioning SAPSCI.

The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence was concerned with the improperly constituted planned decentralisation of SAPSCI.
The new structure is currently undergoing consultation before coming back to the joint standing committee for UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 56 consideration.

We are pleased with the decision taken previously by the former National Commissioner to consult further in this regard.

We are pleased to say that SAPSCI now fully comply with government’s regulations regarding APPs.
The committee is concerned about the cross-border crimes.

We indicated that there was a need to look at cross-border crimes as border provinces such as Mpumalanga.

We have many cross-border sites but we went to the oversight in Mpumalanga and KwaZulu-Natal.

They are faced with serious challenges.

We all know as members of this committee that serious crimes are committed around the borders of these two provinces.

Cars are being stolen and taken across the borders of these provinces.
With the budget cuts that my colleagues echoed earlier in the debate, they are not assisting the agencies in fighting crime, especially the SA National Defence Force who are also mandated to deal with crimes across our borders.

As one of our oversight responsibilities, we are undertook an oversight visit to Umhlabuyalingana area including Kosi Bay Port of entry as well as Gate 6 and Gate 8 in the border of Mozambique.
Although challenges remained, we are happy to UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 57 report that progress has been made.

On the abuse of secret service account in light of the findings of the Judicial of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture, Corruption and Fraud in the Public Sector including Organs of State we requested SAPSCI to draft internal controls for the fund.
SAPSCI has started to address all audit findings to ensure adherence to all legislative and regulatory frameworks.

Hon Chairperson, just to remind the House that I am focusing mainly on SA Police Service Crime Intelligence.

The committee observed that SAPSCI is poorly regulated.

Of concern was that the division was not prioritising legislation and regulatory in its APPs.
The identified problems is that the division’s mandate as set out in the National Strategic Intelligence Act 39 of 1994 is unsubstantial.

Its duties and powers are ill defined and there are barely any checks and balances on the authority.

This was concerning for the committee particularly because SA Police Service employs incredibly inclusive techniques that must be precisely defined and regulated.
The committee informed the leadership of SAPSCI that internal rules can be disregarded hence they do not qualify as adequate controls.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 58 The committee has since ensured that in the 2023/24 APPs, SAPSCI prioritises the drafting of regulations to ensure full compliance with the law.
For the 2023/24 financial year, we have observed the following which will be our focus area for oversight, amongst others.

Drafting of drafting of regulations, legislative amendments to mandate and function.

The 2023/24 APP was significantly different from previous submissions.

SAPSCI has illustrated the importance of critical oversight as the improvements in the APP are as a results of committee’s critical oversight and ensuring that SAPSCI is compliant with the national prescripts.
The leadership of SAPSCI ought to be commended for diligently incorporating all oversight matters raised by the committee throughout the year.

The increased targets ought to have positive impacts on the work of SAPSCI.

The procurement focus is noted albeit with concern as SAPSCI has a history of procuring equipment without the required deviations.

What is concerning is that the deviations have not been planned to said equipment within the financial year.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 59 This annual performance plan was crafted in the backdrop of the Judicial of Inquiry into Allegations of State Capture, Corruption and Fraud in the Public Sector including Organs of State.
The Audit Risk committee report of 2021/22 and the Auditor-General’s Report which all detailed the serious concerns around the legislative lacuna, lack of regulation and poor policy formulation and implementation.

The Joint Standing Committee on Crime Intelligence has through its constitutional responsibility ensured that SAPSCI is adequately regulated to ensure compliance with the rule of the law.

Hon Chairperson, I just want to emphasise that in the committee we do not play politics.
Our concern is the security of the country.

What we are raising here are the concerns that we have as a committee other than coming to the podium and grandstand as members of this committee.

I also want to commend the members of the ANC and the DA for always attending the meetings of this committee and making sure that in the meetings we discuss and not only criticise but we come up with solutions as a committee.
When we go on oversight we really do what is expected of us and what is mandated of us by the Constitution of Members of Parliament UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 60 and also by the Intelligence Act.

So, hon Chairperson, I really want to applaud the work that we are doing behind closed doors.

There is great improvement that we are seeing as a committee, I mean those of us who are attending the committee meetings.
We do not wait for the media and run with them and bring issues that are irrelevant to the debate of the APPs and the budget of the department.

Hon Chairperson, other matters that are being raised are attended to by the relevant state law enforcement agencies.

So, we are not here to grandstand hon members and discuss everything and anything under the sun.

We are debating the Budget Vote 8 – National Treasury of the State Security Agency.

Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms J Hermans): Hon Minister?

Hon members, this venue is very small, and the acoustics are not optimal.

We allow interjections, but please keep it at a lower decibel.

Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chair, thank you for the opportunity to close the debate on Vote 8 of the State Security Agency.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 61 Hon House Chair, I was once told that successful nations are those that are constituted by patriotic citizens.

It is pleasing to know that the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence works in an ...

I want a better term ... nonpartisan manner to promote the security of our nation because it is in the best interests of all of us.
I will not be doing justice to this debate if I don’t acknowledge the acknowledgement by hon Kohler Barnard that the governing party will return to power post the 2024 general elections.

Even if I personally do not return to this position it is immaterial because a mark of a good leader is the system and the national arrangement one puts in place for a system to function without the influence of a personality.
Therefore, it should not matter who is the Minister in the position, what matters should be the programmes, the systems and the plans of action that are put in place.

History has taught us that in this environment it has not always been like that, and the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence worked with urgency to improve that system to function effectively.
Hardly 11 weeks of me taking the job and doing all in my power to make sure that the General UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 62 Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill, GILAB, is finalised and it goes to Cabinet.

Next week I must report that it has passed the Cabinet subcommittee.
I find myself confronted with the committee’s decision that, in my language they would say ... Tshivenḓa: U ṅala tshau ndi u laṱa kana vho khotsi vho la magaga hadzila ya fara vhana.

English: I do not know if the translation services are getting it right.
I am basically saying that I appreciate the support that you have given me but I feel abandoned and rejected by the standing committee because when I had just taken over the job and spent sleepless nights with the team to make sure the necessary consultations are finalised, the standing committee still does not want to give me an opportunity even if it means giving me a deadline to deliver on the GILAB.
chairperson of the joint standing committee, I’d like to plead my case like any other child who cannot be abandoned by their parent.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 63 IsiZulu: Ngifuna ukubonga Inkosi uButhelezi ... English: ... for working with us and supporting the Budget Vote which is part of the patriotism.
I do not know what to say to hon Chirwa because a mark of a good leader is not the rhetoric they spew when they take the podium but the responsibility they take in making sure that they safeguard democracy, the work of the democratic institutions and the committees of Parliament.

The nonattendance of the EFF to the committee of Parliament means it is difficult to have an engagement with the EFF around the witnesses within the intelligence service or any other government service.
I would like to implore the EFF to take their responsibility seriously in terms of holding us to account because that is the hallmark of a democracy, accountability and transparency.

It means those who are charged with the responsibility of holding us to account must do their part and support us to improve the service.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 64 I like the spirit of the discussion that has been taking place here and the recommendations that have come through to say what work is outstanding and the acknowledgement of progress of work done.
During the speech that I delivered and the policy statement that I made, I indicated that we collaborate and co-operate with the United States of America in terms of intelligence sharing, intelligence gathering and any other matter that is constituted in our bilateral agreement and memoranda of co- operation.
I also alluded to the fact that intelligence information is shared through proper channels and through liaison officers, and we have not had any incident where the intelligence service of the USA has shared information with us and we disregarded that information.

We have not had an incident where there was something amiss and the intelligence of the USA worked against our established protocols.
We have said, on our part, on the terror alert that there was no such intelligence shared and there was no other intelligence shared on the vessel that docked at Simon’s Town.

We have that on record, and they have acknowledged it in terms of the right channels and protocols that there was no intelligence shared with us.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 65 However, we appreciate the intervention and decision of the President of the Republic for announcing a commission of inquiry for the finality of the matter on the Simon’s Town vessel and the packages it took out of this country if any.
We have also, at a government level, indicated that there was no authorisation from the National Conventional Arms Control Committee that authorised any sales of weapons to Belarus, to Ukraine and to Russia.

That was explained to the Members of Parliament through a parliamentary questions that were asked by the Democratic Alliance.

We appreciate such questions because they allow us to clarify our position in government.
Therefore, any pestering on this matter is because we are in that period where we, as politicians, call it a silly season.

However, I would like to caution that on matters of state security we cannot afford to have a silly season because that means a collapse of our national security system and our national security architecture, and therefore a threat to the democracy that we seek to achieve and protect at all times.

Ours is a responsibility that goes beyond party political alliance.
Ours is a responsibility, not only at the standing committee level but also as the member of the executive, of UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 66 overseeing state security for what is commonly known as the intelligence services.

It is not about party-political matters but about patriotism and the Republic itself.
It is for that reason that during the debate I indicated that state security or intelligence service is the first point and the last point of defence for this country.

There is no service in this country that is assigned to protect the territorial integrity, sovereignty and the Constitution of the Republic that is not dependent on the work of the intelligence service.

It is for that reason that we need men and women of high calibre.
We need men and women who are ready for the course, who are ready to sacrifice arm and limb to make sure that the Republic comes foremost to anything that they do.

I must indicate that even though there are weaknesses, there have been improvements.

There have been effective and supportive members of the service who have continued to do their work even in difficult times.
The fact that ourselves can gather in this room and debate this Budget Vote irrespective of the phases that we’ve passed through, and the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 67 service has not had a total collapse is because there are those who have given themselves to make sure that the ...

[Inaudible.]

... and I appreciate that you appreciate that.


As we walk through this journey, for the last months in our term of office, as parliamentarians and members of the administration, we have a responsibility to acknowledge that the global geopolitical environment is changing, and we will find ourselves given our position of strength in the continent.

Let us also acknowledge the fact that Africa is the next theatre of growth and development.
We therefore have the responsibility to make sure that we do not find ourselves as proxies to fights, wars and battles that have nothing do with the national interests of South Africa, the region of SADC and the continent of Africa.

We are not only a theatre of global interests for peace’s sake, but we are a theatre of interest because of the economic resources and the endowments that our continent has.
In the next seven years we are going to be the second largest population and it is estimated that in the next 15 years we will be the continent with the largest population in the world.
That means we are going to be the largest consumers of UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FRIDAY, 19 MAY 2023 VOTE NO 8 – NATIONAL TREASURY (STATE SECURITY) Page: 68 services and products manufactures anywhere in the world, but we would prefer that those services and products are manufactured in our continent, in particular driven by South Africa to make sure that the aspirations of our forebears who spoke of African unity can be achieved.
We will continue to rely on the support of the hon members of the joint standing committee and hon Members of Parliament for their full support and guidance, to hold us to account and to guide our work.

Sometimes we will require patience and sometimes we will require pushing and nudging to make sure that we deliver what is collectively our responsibility.

We have one sole responsibility and that is the Republic of South Africa and her people.

Debate concluded.

The Mini Plenary rose at 12:14.