Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698944397824.pdf (South Africa)
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 1 of 86 TUESDAY, 16 MAY 2017 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – COMMITTEE ROOM E249 ____ Members of the mini-plenary session met in Committee Room E249 at 14:02.

House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
APPROPRIATION BILL Debate on Vote No 7 – National Treasury (State Security): The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson of our session, hon Frolick; our chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, His Excellency Comrade Charles Nqakula; hon members; Ministers, , especially the chairperson of our cluster, Minister Mapisa-Nqakula; Deputy Minister of State Security, Comrade Ellen Molekane and other Deputy Ministers who are here; our Deputy Chief Whip of the ANC, hon Comrade Dorries Dlakude; Chief Whip of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, Comrade J J Skhosana; hon Members of the MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 2 of 86 National Assembly and of the NCOP; members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence; the Inspector-General of Intelligence, Dr Isaac Dintwe; the Director-General of State Security, Arthur Fraser; the entire State Security Agency leadership and members; veterans of the intelligence services; the Auditor-General of the Republic of South Africa, Mr T K Makwetu; the leadership of the ANC national executive committee members that are here; provincial secretaries; the youth league leadership that are here; alliance members and progressive youth alliance; Mahlobo and Molekane families; distinguished guests; comrades, friends and fellow South Africans.
Hon Chairperson and members, during the celebration of our 23 years of our hard-won freedom and democracy, His Excellency President Zuma implored us into action as a nation to deal with the vestiges of colonialism and apartheid.

In his speech at Georgetown University in 1987, the ANC President, Comrade O R Tambo had this to say: We seek to create a united, democratic and nonracial society.
We have a vision of a South Africa in which black and white shall live and work together as equals in conditions of peace and prosperity.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 3 of 86 As a country and her people, we are indeed on course; many of our citizens have access to basic services like water, housing, sanitation, roads, electricity, education, health care and social security services that they were denied before.
However, we are the first to admit that more still needs to be done in the construction of this national democratic society.

We can pride ourselves on the achievement of political freedom that includes universal suffrage, but economic freedom remains elusive.

It is for in terms of this belief that our freedom is incomplete.
In realising the ideals of the national democratic revolution, the ANC has decided on a radical socioeconomic transformation agenda as a path towards building a country that is not only united in diversity but also united in equality.

The majority of our population in this country - that is, blacks in general, and Africans in particular - is economically disempowered and is already understandably impatient and dissatisfied with the lack of real economic gains from our freedom.
These levels of poverty, inequality and unemployment are unacceptable, unsustainable and pose a serious security threat to our nation.

In certain aspects of our democratic society, MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 4 of 86 we know that our country is experiencing a number of challenges that appear to be testing the strength and depth of our constitutional democracy.
We need to have full confidence in the institutions of our democracy which our Constitution established, and we must be confident that these matters will be handled in a manner that doesn’t destabilise our country.

As a nation, we have proven that, through our diversity and unity we can stand together and emerge as one people.
Our collectivism and unity of purpose should be directed at defending and defeating the scourge of racism, tribalism, inequality, poverty and unemployment, and avoid a situation wherein the revolution is devouring its own children.

Our mandate from the Constitution and other relevant laws regarding national security is securing South Africa’s sovereignty, territorial integrity, independence, her people, critical infrastructure, assets and interests.
As we have indicated before in this House, in seeking to fulfil our legal mandate, we are always mindful of the need to find checks and balances to government’s use of excessively harsh measures towards citizens in the name of security while balancing human rights.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 5 of 86 In South Africa, the checks and balances have been developed after the dawn of our democracy.
Let me take this opportunity to congratulate the chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and his team for concluding the work on the appointment of the new Inspector-General of Intelligence, our own Dr Isaac Dintwe.

[Applause.]

On behalf of the department and our family, we wish to convey our sincere congratulations to Dr Dintwe and wish him all the best in this important national task.
There is no better way to celebrate the national security achievements to date than to rededicate the national intelligence structures to continue the good story of a further consolidation of our democracy through the creation of conditions of peace and stability that are necessary to make further improvements to the lives of all South Africans, as well as those in the SADC region, our continent and the rest of the world.
I am once again reminded of the words of our former President, O R Tambo, at the 1969 Morogoro conference when he said and I quote: The victories of the national liberation movements were in most cases not easy, smooth and complete, nor was the retreat of the imperialists always unplanned or a complete defeat.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 6 of 86 Imperialism resorted to many political, military, economic and other stratagems to extend its lease of life and to save as much as it could in its erstwhile colonies.

Since the advent of our democracy, it has taken us so many years since these words were uttered by our President to witness their manifestation in our country and the world.
The instability of the global environment will contribute to increasing strain on the economic, political, and security foundations of the international order that have underpinned global stability since the end of the Second World War.

Economic instability, mass migration, political dysfunctionalism and foreign security crises have enabled the rise of populist movements, testing the commitment of a number of countries to pluralist values.
In the context of these intracivilisation identity crises, the liberal international order faces increasing strain.

State and nonstate actors will also seize the opportunity to undermine the legitimacy and control of governments and to promote their narrow interests.

As a result, states will be forced to focus increasingly on threats within their borders, to the detriment of international co-operation.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 7 of 86 As the security services, the thrust of our mandate is outlined in the National Development Plan, NDP, 2030 which is our vision and, I quote: In 2030, people living in South Africa should feel safe at home, at school and at work, and they should enjoy community life free of fear, women to walk freely in the street and children to play safely outside.
In describing our current state of peace and stability in the country, our departure point as security services is that South Africa is relatively stable, notwithstanding our security assessment which identifies economic weaknesses as the major threat to our national security and interests.
Chairperson and members, all of us would agree on our constitutionally enshrined rights of association, movement and protest…… In relation to the latter, our Bill of Rights provides, in Chapter 2: “Everyone has the right peacefully and unarmed, to assemble, to demonstrate, to picket and to present petitions”.

A series of concerns have emerged around the perceived trend towards using fears about security to justify eroding human rights and freedoms.
Finding a balance on how to effectively address security while respecting human rights constitute a key challenge of our time.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 8 of 86 If we look back at the history of our own country in the struggle we can see that ours was a very violent nation - where people found their voices through various forms of protests that ended with blood on the floor.

It was the darkest period in the history of our country.
It can be argued that the violent nature of many protests in our country and the violent nature of certain crime categories in society today reflect the old violence which we come from as a nation.

We therefore have to condemn any wanton destruction of property, vandalism and, at times, death that is associated with some protests.

Last year we saw the proliferation of violent service delivery protests, violent student protests and violent industrial action.
In addition, we have also witnessed violence in relation to demarcation issues, such as those witnessed in Vuwani, in Limpopo, where schools were burned down and destroyed.

We’ve also noticed housing shortages that have culminated in increased incidents of land invasion, which have largely been politicised.

Instability in the transport sector remains one of our challenges.

The underlying conflict over ranks and routes is compounded by the involvement of security companies.
The introduction of Uber, which has resulted in conflict with the MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 9 of 86 metered-taxi industry, has further exacerbated conflicts in this sector.

The involvement of some government officials does not assist our cause of creating stability in this sector.

We will, therefore, continue to work tirelessly with all our partners in search of finding a lasting solution to the challenges of this industry.
Insecurity posed by some private security companies is not only limited to the transport sector as earlier reflected.

It extends to the involvement of our nationals in conflicts in the continent and other parts of the world.

The ever-expanding footprint of this industry and the cash-based system of transacting makes curbing illegal activities of this industry difficult.
The continued provision of security services at our national key points and strategic installations by private security companies which are foreign-owned is a problem for our country.

It is essential that these strategic installations are protected by South Africans, as a means to secure our own sovereignty.

It is our conviction that the Private Security Industry Regulation Amendment Bill will assist in resolving some of these challenges including the transformation imperatives we seek.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 10 of 86 Our position remains that the right to protest must be exercised in a responsible manner that doesn’t impact negatively on others.

In all of these, we’ve also noted the disturbing trend of state and nonstate actors who continue to hijack legitimate socioeconomic concerns of our people for narrow political gains aimed at effecting an unconstitutional regime change.
As political leaders, we must show political maturity by denouncing the exploitation of genuine community concerns for ulterior motives.

We equally call upon the business community, when dealing with industrial issues, to act in a responsible way when engaging with workers.

Personal privacy and national security in the 21st century both depend on protecting a set of systems that never existed before until the 20th century.
The digital and information age has brought exciting opportunities in developing our economies, improving our health care system, education, agricultural production, military, and the provision of services; the list is endless.

In the same vein, electronic computing and communication pose some of the most complex challenges the world has ever faced.
Attacks on any of these networks would potentially have disastrous consequences for individuals and for society, as MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 11 of 86 witnessed in the recent ransom-ware attack on more than 100 countries, affecting thousands of organisations worldwide as we speak.

This cyberattack affected both big and small countries.

In the UK, the health care system was affected; in Germany systems were affected, and in Russia; even in our own country.
The international community is concerned over threats posed by possible use of such technologies both in civil and military spheres at the expense of achieving international peace, security and stability; undermining sovereignty of countries and security of states and interfering in the internal affairs of countries; violation of citizens’ private lives; destabilisation of inner political and social and economic situations, and advancing racism and terrorism as well as ethnic and sectarian strife.
Finding a balance of respecting human rights in the field of information security and communication technologies continue to be a subject by various proponents to the equation.

In our quest to secure critical information infrastructure, government has made significant strides to protect its information from attacks that emanate from cyberspace.
Our country is one of the targets for cybercrime and research shows that small companies and ordinary citizens, especially MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 12 of 86 unsuspecting children, are being targeted more and more by cybercriminals, state actors and hacktivists.

Ransomware, identity theft, cyberbullying, Internet banking fraud, misuse of social networks and many other types of attacks are prevalent.

We have made significant strides in partnership with institutions of higher learning.
We have also launched a building programme that will bolster our capacity to respond to the problem of cyber insecurity.

These initiatives will not only bolster the capacity of government to respond to cyber insecurity, but it will create the skills needed that will improve cybersecurity for both public and private sectors.

Good progress has also been recorded in the policy and legislative environment including relevant co-ordinating structures.
The Cybercrime and Cybersecurity Bill is currently before Parliament, having gone through a process of consultation.

The Bill will seek to ensure that the country has the relevant instruments legally in place.

Information security and cybersecurity is a matter of discussion globally.
As we consider appropriate legislation as parliamentarians, we should address the following issues: Firstly, acts of aggression aimed at discrediting the sovereignty and violation of security and territorial MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 13 of 86 integrity of states and threatening international peace, security and stability; secondly, the causing of economic and other damages, including having a destructive impact on elements of information infrastructure; thirdly, take into consideration terrorists’ purposes, as well as advocacy of terrorism and recruitment for terrorist activities; fourthly, the committing of crime, including by those connected with unauthorised access to computer information; fifthly, interference into the internal affairs of states, violation of public order, incitement of interracial and interethnic and sectarian strife, advocacy of racist and xenophobic ideas or theories that ignite hatred and discrimination and incite to destabilise governments; and, lastly, the disseminating of information that is harmful to sociopolitical and socioeconomic systems, spiritual, moral and cultural environments in other states.
A number of governments are using underhand tactics in pursuit of their narrow national interests and national security, in the process destabilising a number of countries as we have witnessed in Libya, Brazil, and currently in Syria.

During the past year, these countries continued their efforts, in collaboration with negative domestic forces, including by undermining our own democratic and constitutional advances.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 14 of 86 Their modus operandi are through penetration, influencing and, ultimately, subversion in the quest to advance and promote their national interests.

They are using these platforms where they will be in a position to divert governance and also have the possibility that the broader purpose of government will be hijacked by those with ulterior motives, as I have said.

They then use a number of platforms.


These are not limited to mainstream media; NGOs and community-based organisations, CBOs; foreign and multinational companies; funding of opposition activities; infiltration and recruitment in key government departments; religious bodies; prominent influential persons, and planning of covert intelligence networks and covert action on our soil.
As a country, our message to all South Africans is that we should always be careful not to knowingly and unknowingly yield to those who want to exploit our genuine concerns for our people to drive a wedge amongst us as people and, ultimately, change the government of the people elected by the people.

[Applause.]

Transnational crime networks, on arms and ammunition, drug and human trafficking, stock theft, vehicle theft and money laundering have become one of the international security challenges we face.
Gangsterism and drug abuse continue to ravage our communities.

We must deal decisively with the MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 15 of 86 prevalence of gangsterism and crime in our communities.

Our concern is the targeting of schools and youth centres as recruitment platforms for these.

Linked to the issue of gangsterism, we must also know that the security agencies have been working hard.
A lot of money and weapons have been discovered in our ports on entry –and we have done a lot about it Another issue that we are dealing with is the attack on our economy – illicit economy.

A significant amount of cash was detected leaving our shores to foreign jurisdiction and, in our own terms and in terms of our report, illicit financial flow is estimated at R80 billion.
With regard to this flow, it was brought into sharper focus by the work that was done by the AU Commission High-Level Panel led by our former President Mbeki.

The information that has been leaked from the Panama law firm, Mossack Fonseca, has illustrated that there are revelations that some South Africans and companies are being cited in the reports.
Over the years, it is clear that the South African economy has been affected negatively by decades of transfer pricing and other forms of illegal capital flight by multinational companies, especially those who operate in the extractive industries.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 16 of 86 In the period under review, the threat posed by illicit mining of precious metals and related crimes continued to proliferate across the country, and this is manifested in the displacement of illicit activities to previously unaffected provinces such as KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo.

This has been exacerbated by our current situation.

We have also noted with concern the increase of infrastructure crimes, which affects the livelihood of our communities.
Syndicated theft, of, amongst others, copper, affects the delivery of critical services and, at times, results in community protests.

We are working with many of our SOEs and municipalities because these activities are normally carried out by people who know the system inside.

We are going to continue to put in more work on economic intelligence so that we can deal with these issues.
We are currently working with National Treasury, the SA Revenue Service, the Department of Trade and Industry and the Financial intelligence ...

[Inaudible.]

good governance, service delivery, and ultimately, stability, particularly at local level.

We will continue focusing on corruption within the Public Service and private sector.

With regard to our Anti-Corruption Task Team, as reported on Sunday, we have made progress.
Freezing orders amounting to MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 17 of 86 more than half a billion rand have been obtained, and 87 successful prosecutions have been done, especially around our own system of government.

We are enhancing the vetting process to improve the integrity of our officials who are employed in government, including state-owned companies.

We are in the process of digitising the vetting process whilst finalising the intelligence regulations that will enable vetting as a compulsory requirement.
For us the integrity of government officials is paramount in our fight against corruption.

In concluding, Chair, we want to thank His Excellency our President, the ANC, the Deputy Minister, the director-general, the leadership and the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence.

We shall work with vigour to implement bold and decisive interventions towards socioeconomic transformation in order to eradicate poverty and unemployment.
We are obligated by human solidarity and love for peace, justice and equality to be tolerant and to reject prejudice based on race, creed, gender, religion and sectarianism.

Freedom and equality is the cornerstone of the truly united, nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous society we all yearn for.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 18 of 86 Our responsibility is to unite and lead the nation, while accepting the baton of our history.
Our responsibility is to our people, who expect a better quality of life.

They hope that their children and next generations can grow up better, have decent work and a better life for all.

The ANC has led our people in scoring accomplishments that have captured our imagination and the attention of the world.

We have every reason to be proud.

We are proud but cannot allow complacency to set in, and will never rest on our laurels.
I humbly submit this Budget Vote of the Department of State Security for your consideration.

God bless Africa, her sons and daughters.

I thank you.

[Applause.]

[Time expired.]

Mr C NQAKULA: Hon Chairperson, Ministers, who are here and Deputy Ministers as well and hon members, allow me to express my appreciation for the presence, at this debate, of Dr Isaac Dintwe who has recently taken up his position as Inspector- General of Intelligence following his swearing in on 22 March.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

Dr Dintwe, many of the things you will hear in this Chamber today will be part of the lessons you should embrace as you ready yourself to discharge the tasks in respect of your oversight role.

I want to commend you, Inspector-General, for respecting the concept of institutional memory.
I hear that you have retained MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 19 of 86 all senior staff members of your staff complement when it has become fashionable for some leaders of the various entities of state to fire all members of staff when they assume duty.

You may be part of the emerging breed that understands that there is merit in acknowledging and centralising experience.

That will enrich you as you begin to assemble the building blocks that will buttress your structure of oversight.
It is important at times, hon Chairperson and members, to look back and appreciate how far we have come as a nation.

I know it is easier to be negative and nit-picking in circumstances where proper analysis is required, especially during these days where an amazing proliferation … – Are there problems?

What are the problems?

[Interjections.]

Is it not better to interact with me?

[Interjections.]

No, interact with me.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, just continue with your speech.
May I also request members who enter the Chamber to do so in a way that is not disruptive, please?

Mr C NQAKULA: I know it is easier to be negative and nit-pick in circumstances where proper analysis is required, especially these days where an amazing proliferation of analysts of every form and description is prevalent in our country.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 20 of 86 However, just think for a moment how difficult it must have been to assimilate the various intelligence structures of the disparate forces in the country to build a united intelligence community as part of South Africa’s security services.

For the benefit of those who were still young at the time, the security services were defined into two main groups - the statutory and non-statutory forces - for integration.
The statutory forces were constituted by some that came from South Africa, as it was defined at the time, and the non-statutory forces came from the armed forces of the various revolutionary movements of the time.

Therefore, the statutory forces were representing South Africa, the Bantustan forces from Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Gazankulu, KaNgwane, KwaNdebele, KwaZulu, Lebowa, Qwaqwa, Transkei and Venda.
Of course, by 02 December 1994 they were all put together in terms of the Intelligence Services Act, Act 38 of 1994.

If we could do this with minor hiccups, we ought to be able to deal with our current difficulties.

Over the years there have been various amendments to the law on intelligence to try to make it relevant to the demands of the times.

Experience tells us that criminals run faster than the wheels of justice.
The intelligence community was established to be our people’s eyes and ears to countermand crime and criminality.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 21 of 86 The practitioners of intelligence are not only expected to be professional in their work, but their sense of anticipation must be extraordinarily sharp.

Therefore, they must be able to read correctly various signs that often pop up to indicate lurking danger.
Crime and criminality internationally have burgeoned to levels which may not have been expected when we formed our intelligence community in 1994.

We certainly knew of the spectre of international terrorism but not how fast and widespread it would grow and how, using various deadly weapons and cyberspace, it would sow unbridled destruction across the world.

Crime and criminality, on top of which sits international terrorism, have easy access to money.
The money may be fake or proceeds of crime that must be laundered in various countries through the hands of partners in crime, or comes from supporters, especially with respect to fundamentalist practices.

Recruits are always available to crime bosses and terror syndicates.

Some of those recruits include children.

Our experience tells that some of those children have been recruited from our own shores, which indicates that we are not insulated, although we may be relatively safer this time.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 22 of 86 There are certain new measures we have to adopt, hon Minister, to ensure that our intelligence community is always equal to the challenges of crime and criminality but especially so terrorism.

On the one hand, we need to look at our law and how we can make it more effective in the work we do and, on the other, we need to capacitate our intelligence community at the levels of both human and material resources.
The ANC had a concept during its underground existence when it was banned, where its cadres, especially from uMkhonto weSizwe, were trained on how to implement given missions.

The first thing was not just to understand the mission but to internalise it.

It had to occupy your mind.

You had to know when to start; when to complete; and when to report.
Of course, as you planned for the implementation of the mission as a commander of your unit, you had to know exactly how many cadres you needed and how much resources were necessary for the fulfilment of the mission.

I raise this because there was, in there, strict command and control and professionalism in the discharge of the task.

We need this even under current circumstances.


We cannot afford to be lackadaisical in our approach to the assembly of the intelligence product because it is that product that will show whether we, indeed, are the eyes and ears of our people and, MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 23 of 86 therefore, we are able to protect them from danger.

Collection is done on the ground, hon Minister.

Collectors must not be in offices.

They must be on the ground.


They must have informers who are tried and tested and spread across our communities, and involved in all human endeavours in those communities.

All reports, from whatever quarter, must be checked and analysed.

On our part, as parliamentarians, we must go through our intelligence law with a fine-toothed comb to determine whether such law, after such a long time, is still adequate and can still be used as an appropriate springboard in the fight against crime and criminality.
We must also ensure that all necessary resources, human and material, are available to our intelligence community for it to be able to do its work.

It goes without saying that, in the face of accelerated criminality, we need adequately-resourced security structures in South Africa.

The first resource, of course, is of the human kind.
We cannot place our intelligence project in the hands of inadequate practitioners whose presence in that community is based on questions that are extraneous to the desire to have highly-skilled intelligence officers.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 24 of 86 The qualification we want to rely on is that the intelligence officer is equal to the job beyond the shadow of a doubt.

That brings into play the necessity of training and retraining.
It brings in strict regimes of command and control by immediate superiors right through to you, hon Minister.

The intelligence field is not an arena for laggards and non-achievers.

It needs officers and agents, who fully understand their mandate, as our Constitution enjoins all of us to do, to: Reflect the resolve of South Africans ... to live as equals, to live in peace and harmony, to be free from fear and want and to seek a better life.

What does that mean?


It means our intelligence community must open its ears to hear the early rumblings of our people because where they live racism is starting to reawaken.

There are some rumbles in some communities because our people there have not, after so many years, started to taste some of the elements of the promised better life.
Other frustrations which are slowly growing have to do with increased threats to their lives by criminals, especially against the girl-child and vulnerable members of our communities.

Our intelligence officers must pick up those noises from the time they are just a murmur that may be inaudible to the untrained ear.
Government as a whole will also have to be MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 25 of 86 persuaded incessantly to address all reported problems to fulfil the injunction by our Constitution to ensure that our people live in peace and harmony and are free from fear and want.

Your intelligence officers, hon Minister, are surely generating the necessary information to warn of impending problems and may be reporting, as they are expected to do, to the other arms of the security establishment.
Please Minister, talk to your colleagues in the security cluster on those matters to ensure there is always adequate response to clear and present dangers.

All of us, hon Minister and members, must ensure that we work together to strengthen our law and rededicate ourselves to the fulfilment of the constitutional demands to do everything possible so that all our people can finally arrive at the level where they will say, without any reservation, that they have a better life.
I want to, as I finish, commend the members of my committee from the various parties represented in this House.

I want to say to them, for as long as we work the way that we do, we are inputting into the very better life that we talk about for our people.

Therefore, with our influence, we will also be able to ensure that the intelligence product will enable us to deal with all the problems that we have at the level of security in our country.
In the end, we shall be happy to say we were part MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 26 of 86 and parcel of the building blocks that ensure that, in the end, we were able to reduce some of the crimes and criminality that affects our people so negatively.

I want to thank you.

[Applause.]


Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon House Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Members of Parliament and guests ... ... met die swak leierskap deur die President geopenbaar, het dit ongeveer twee jaar geneem om die pos van Inspekteur- generaal van Intelligensie in die Departement van Intelligensie te vul.
Die vertraging het meegebring dat belangrike sake rakend intelligensie nie met dringendheid aangespreek kon word nie en het Suid-Afrika op die agtervoet geplaas ten opsigte van ander lande.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[... through the weak leadership showed by the President, it took approximately two years to fill the post of Inspector- General of Intelligence in the Department of Intelligence.
The delay was the cause for important matters regarding intelligence not being addressed urgently and left South Africa lagging behind other countries.]

South Africa suffered the most cyberattacks and our Minister also mentioned it.

I think we in the committee are very MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 27 of 86 worried about that.

Cyberattacks on the African continent, in just over one year, amount to 2014 losses alone, estimated at about R50 billion.
The private and public sector and government are not taking the threat seriously enough.

Cybercrime often goes unreported but research has found that it is growing rapidly.

The Cybercrimes and Cybersecurity Bill is due to be processed by Parliament this year which will allow the public to give input into the issues when it opens for comments.

South African law enforcement agencies are being poorly equipped to prosecute the perpetrators of cyberattacks, whether they are locally or internationally based.
Wêreldwyd is kuber-bedreiging beslis die belangrikste aspek in enige land se veiligheid.

Met die druk van ’n knoppie kan ’n land en sy mense duisende kilometer verder in gevaar gestel or selfs uitgewis word.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[All over the world the threat of cybercrime is without doubt the most important aspect for any country’s security.

By pressing a button one can endanger a country and its people thousands of kilometres away or even annihilate them.]
Illegal mining is a further ongoing concern across South Africa and the African continent.

With our neighbouring MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 28 of 86 countries such as Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Swaziland, Lesotho and a 2 500 kilometre sea line, we need a most effective management and border security system.

Borders and their control has become one of the most hotly debated issues around the world over the last few years.
Immigration concerns led to the major political events in 2016 - Brexit and Donald Trump becoming the President of the United States of America - while here at home there have been no calls for “Build The Wall” at this stage.

The South Africa- Zimbabwe border is a national disgrace.

If you want to bring something across the border, it is wide open for everyone just to cross the border.

Drug trafficking across the borders is a serious concern.
The South African police confiscated heroin to the value of R100 million shortly after the vehicle carrying it passed through the Golela Border Post from Mozambique.

The hon President Jacob Zuma mentioned in his speech on Freedom Day that there is a lack of collaboration in efforts to defeat cross-border crime, and criminals were taking advantage of this lack of co-ordination.
Safety at O R Tambo International Airport in Gauteng has been severely compromised in the past few months, with reports of MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 29 of 86 criminal activities on the increase.

South Africa lost millions of revenue at our airports.

To improve passenger security and speed up the process of moving through checkpoints, airports need to upgrade the systems they are using at this stage.
While drones offer great promise to benefit society, the ability to detect and control improper illegal use is a critical requirement for public safety, privacy and security.

Hommeltuie en hulle operateurs neem vinniger toe as wat die Burgerlike Lugvaartowerheid lisensies kan uitreik.

Die probleem met onwettige hommeltuie is dat dit moeilik is om die operateurs op te spoor.

Suid-Afrika is een van die eerste lande wat wetgewing ingestel het om hommeltuie te reguleer.
Aan die begin van 2017 was daar reeds 465 geregistreerde hommeltuie, tenoor 216 in die vorige jaar.

Vlieg oor nasionale sleutelpunte en reservate, vlieg in slegte weer, besope operateurs en vlieg buite sigafstand is verbode.

Individue wat die wet verontagsaam moet vervolging te wagte wees.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 30 of 86 [Drones and their operators multiply faster than the SA Civil Aviation Authority can issue licences.
The problem with illegal drones is that it is difficult to trace the operators.

South Africa is one of the first countries to introduce legislation in order to regulate drones.

At the start of 2017 there were already 465 registered drones, in comparison with 216 in the previous year.

Flying over national key points and reserves, flying in poor weather conditions, operators under the influence of alcohol and operating a drone out of line of sight are forbidden.
Individuals who transgress the law should expect prosecution.]

In conclusion, we can say that, due to the failure to keep up with the technological advances as well as the lack of trust between the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, and the President, the Minister and different intelligence sectors, the department is not in a state to protect South Africa optimally.

I thank you.

[Applause.]

Mr S P MHLONGO: Chairperson ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members.
Mr S P MHLONGO: For corrupt leaders to thrive, state organs are the first victims of weakening.

We have seen this during MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 31 of 86 the assumption of office by President Zuma when he had to chase out director-general Njenje who advised him on the necessity to launch an investigation on the closeness of the Guptas to the Head of State, which is President Zuma.
It is in this particular context therefore that the EFF rejects this State Security Budget Vote and we will clearly illustrate the reasons behind this.

The Minister of State Security, hon Minister Mahlobo, never refuted allegations by Al Jazeera on his connections with the Beijing businessman to whom he is alleged to have sold rhino horns from our country.

He is the Minister of State Security.


Recently, billions of rand were snatched by organised criminals at O R Tambo Airport, ad indicates the dangers we are facing as a nation in South Africa.

There have been various gruesome killings, especially in KwaZulu-Natal, mostly of ANC members, where what the motive is and who the forces are that are killing our own people irrespective of their political affiliation never been identified.

This Minister is busy trading in rhino horns.

General Mdluli who was ...


[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members.

Hon Mhlongo, can I just ask this member why she is rising?

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 32 of 86 Mrs M R M MOTHAPO: Chairperson, I rise in terms of Rule ... heyi wena!

[Hey you!]

... 65 ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes.

Mrs M R M MOTHAPO: ... in terms of which hon Mhlongo has made reflections that hon Minister Mahlobo is dealing in horns.
He knows very well that in terms of that Rule ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I have heard your point of order, hon member.

Hon Mhlongo, did you say that the hon Minister is busy trading in rhino horns?

Mr S P MHLONGO: No, no.

It is not me who said that; it was Al Jazeera ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member.

Order!

[Interjections.]

Mr S P MHLONGO: Wait!

Wait!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members ...
[Interjections.]

Mr S P MHLONGO: It is the duty, hon Chairperson, … MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 33 of 86 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, order!

Mr S P MHLONGO: Hon Chair, hon Chair.

It is the duty of hon Mahlobo to dispute what was aired by Al Jazeera about him.

It is not my duty.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mhlongo!

Mr S P MHLONGO: Please, it is not me; I did not say that.

It is Al Jazeera.

[Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mhlongo, please, please hon members, calm down.

Mr S P MHLONGO: I cannot withdraw on behalf of Al Jazeera.

I am not a member of Al Jazeera.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members.

Order!

Mr S P MHLONGO: I cannot withdraw on behalf of Al Jazeera.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mhlongo ...

[Interjections.]

Mr S P MHLONGO: Okay, thank you.


MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 34 of 86 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... let me deal with with this point of order, please.

Mr S P MHLONGO: Okay.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mhlongo, you must withdraw the remark that you have made even if you say it is from an outside source because you brought that source now into the debate.

So, just withdraw the remark and continue with your speech, please.
Mr S P MHLONGO: I withdraw but it was aired by Al Jazeera.

[Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order!

Hon members, order.

Hon Mhlongo, do you withdraw the remark?

Mr S P MHLONGO: Yes, I do.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Continue, please.

Mr S P MHLONGO: General Mdluli wrote an open letter to President Zuma, saying Zuma must assure his stay as head of crime intelligence.
The ANC never disputed that, despite the fact that General Mdluli, as the head of crime intelligence, wrote a letter to the sitting Head of State to say, as long as MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 35 of 86 Zuma assures him of his stay in crime intelligence, he will also assure his re-election as the head of the ANC; yet General Mdluli is alleged to have been a butcher of our people during the apartheid struggle.

An HON MEMBER: You are in the wrong Budget Vote.


Mr S P MHLONGO: It is this Minister of Intelligence who, to date, has never demanded finalisation of that suspension of that man who is still on the payroll of this government.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mhlongo, there is another point of order.

Ms N R MOKOTO: Chairperson, I want you to make a ruling on the member being irrelevant because the topic at hand is the Budget Vote, not gossip.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No.


Thank you, hon member.

Continue, hon Mhlongo.

Mnu S P MHLONGO: Siyambonga uNkulunkulu osigcinile sibe siphila ezweni eseliphethwe yilamaNdiya aseNdiya o-Gupta ngoba bekungamele uZuma kanye noNgqongqoshe oMahlobo nayo yonke into yethu sekunuka ama-Gupta kulelizwe.

Then kuthiwa masenze [commit] i-fiscal dumping [silahle/sidlale ngemali] bethatha MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 36 of 86 imali yabantu bakithi abahluphekayo siyokhokhela into engasenzeli lutho.
(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr S P MHLONGO: We thank God for protecting us whilst living in this country that is now managed by these Indians from India – the Guptas – although it is Zuma and Ministers like Mahlobo and everyone else.

This country is smelling of the Guptas.

Then we are told to commit fiscal dumping [throw away money/play with money] whilst taking our poor people’s money to pay for something that does not benefit us.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mhlongo!
Hon Mhlongo ...

[Interjections.]

Mr S P MHLONGO: Yeah, thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mhlongo, there is just a point of order; let me take that.

May I remind hon members that we are debating the Budget Vote on State Security.

The Minister has tabled his Budget Vote and he has invited a number of guests.

There are departmental officials, members of the public, and everyone else who is here.
Let us behave in a way that projects and portrays Parliament as a place of debate and not of shouting at one another.

Let us engage in decent debate.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 37 of 86 Hon member, why are you rising?
Mr P J MNGUNI: Hon House Chair, on a point of order, may I just rise to advise that hon Mhlongo has twice now - I let it slip the first time as I thought it was a slip of the tongue - referred to a member of this House, His Excellency the President, by his first name, and he is not supposed to do that.

May he do the right thing.

Mr S P MHLONGO: President Zuma.

Siyambonga uNkulunkulu ukuthi phezu kwalobu bunuku ...

[Ubuwelewele.]

[We thank God that despite this mess ...

[Interjections.]]
[Interjections.]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): And you have less than a minute left.

Mnu S P MHLONGO: ... esibhekene nabo kuleli zwe, usakwazi ukusigcina.

Sonke sibonile laphayana endaweni yaseMandeni kwaZulu-Natali kubulawa iNkosi uMathonsi, umbulali eseduze kwakhe engenayo indlela yokuzivikela noma ukuphunyuka lapho [execution style].

Ngikhuluma njengesakamuzi sakwaZulu.

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 38 of 86 [Mr S P MHLONGO: ... that we are faced with in this country, He is still able to protect us.

We all know what happened in the area of Mandeni in KwaZulu-Natal, when Chief Mathonsi was killed, where his killer was in close range and he could not defend himself or escape that attack, as he was killed execution style.

I am talking as a KwaZulu citizen.]

The country is gone.

Siyambonga u-Jehova.

Siphilela yena.


[We are grateful to Jehova.

We are alive because of Him.]

We have no country.

Sekusele ukuthi nicule nithi “Gupta land Gupta land” ... [Kwaphela isikhathi.]

[What is left is for you to sing and say “Guptaland” ... [Time expired.]]
Mr R N CEBEKHULU: Hon House Chair and hon members, ... ... ngifisa ukuhlala emagameni kamhlonishwa uMhlongo Sihlalo, sihanjelwe yiNkosi uCele kulezi zinsuku ezedlule nje, nayo edutshuliwe, asazi wubani oboshiweyo njengoba esho nje umhlonishwa.

Selokhu kwabulawa neNkosi uMathonsi akukaze kuvele lutho.

Siyafisa nakho ukube wukuthi uphiko lolu luyasebenza.

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 39 of 86 [...


I wish to agree with hon Mhlongo, Chairperson, we have just lost iNkosi Cele in the past few days; he was also shot and we do not know who is arrested, as the hon member has said.

And ever since iNkosi Mathonsi was also killed, nothing ever happened.

We also wish that this inspectorate was functioning.]
Coming to my contribution to this budget debate, I would like to say this: There have been serious challenges in this department due to the inordinately long time it had been without an inspector-general, IG, of intelligence.

In fact, the entire security cluster has found itself severely handicapped, as the intelligence-gathering head position had remained vacant for too long.
This not only hindered the work of the department but also exposed the nation to unnecessary risks and we are very pleased that the position has now recently been filled.
Challenges have been many and varied, like the aeroplane that ended up landing in one of our neighbouring countries carrying bank notes destined for the SA Reserve Bank together with a body in an advanced state of decomposition which is a classic example; or the drama at O R Tambo International Airport; or the recent arrest of an individual suspected of raising funds to overthrow the government; or even the fact that our sitting Head of State is allowed to attend a trade union meeting MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 40 of 86 which, it turns out, is dangerously hostile to his attendance.. Where else on earth would such a thing be allowed to happen?
There is a serious security breach waiting to happen in South Africa and, when it does, we will only have ourselves to blame.

All this shows the importance of the office of the IG being ably led by an individual with the highest integrity and discipline, and one who will take charge and assume the responsibility of gathering information, in order to inform the relevant clusters so that they may act swiftly before any real harm to our people or damage to our property is caused.
The department will also require adequate funding and resources in order to ensure that criminals and their nefarious plots are uncovered before people and property are placed in harm’s way.

The safety of the citizens of our country is the department’s greatest responsibility.

Our kids on their way to school and parents going to and returning from a day’s work, or even when they are at home, must feel safe.
Taxpayers dig deep into their pockets when hiring the services of security companies to provide security in their homes and businesses.

Organised crime grows daily and this constitutes a large portion of State Security’s work.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 41 of 86 Global terrorism remains on the rise and we accordingly have a duty not only to our own citizens, but to our global partners as well to remain ever vigilant for threats to ourselves or the global community at large.
Sihlalo, ngifisa ukusho lokhu okulandelayo, ukuba besinakho ukusukuma ngesikhathi besingeke sikubone esakubona kwenzeka e- Limpopo la kushe khona izikole ezicishe zibe ngamashumi amabili nesishiyagalombili abantu befuna abakufunayo benganikezwa ithuba elanele kodwa kungekho i-intelligence engena phakathi kwabo ukuze ivimbe umonakalo owenzekile.

Izingane zesizwe ziphazamisekile kulowo nyaka zingakwazi ukuya ezikoleni ngesikhathi.
Isibonelo sesibili, yila khona kushe amanyuvesi ethu ngemikhankaso ye-#FeesMustFall, lowo monakalo wawuyovinjwa ngesikhathi ukuba kwakukhona uphiko olumele ukwenza lowo msebenzi.

Sasingeke sihlangabezane nezinselelo lapho khona kugcine kushe nezinto ezimqoka zezwe ebezizosiza intsha ekhulayo uma iyofunda ikwazi ukucosha ulwazi khona.

Kube yizinkomba ...

[Ubuwelewele.]

ezisobala konke lokhu Sihlalo.

Kunjalo-ke kodwa i-IFP iyayeseka iBhajethi.

Ngiyabonga.

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)


[Chairperson, I want to say the following: If we were able to act on time we would not have witnessed what happened in Limpopo where almost 28 schools were burnt down by people who demanded whatever they were demanding when they were not given MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 42 of 86 enough attention but there was no intelligence service that could infiltrate them to prevent the damage that was caused.
The nation’s children were disrupted during that year for they could not go to school.

The second example is when two of our universities were burnt down during the #FeesMustFall protest, and that damage would have been prevented on time should there have been an inspectorate that is responsible for that task.

We would not have experienced such challenges where the significant national assets that would assist the next generation in equipping themselves with education ended up in flames.
All of those became ...

[Interjections.]

... clear indicators, Chairperson.

That is all then, and the IFP supports the budget.

Thank you.]

Mr S C MNCWABE: Hon House Chairperson, hon members, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, distinguished guests in the gallery, the national security of our country must be the priority for all of us, regardless of our political affiliations.
Yes, there might be one captain of this flight called South Africa but we are all in there as passengers and, therefore, whatever happens to it in terms of security threats will influence all of us and we are all going to suffer the consequences.

The NFP is quite aware that our security agencies play a vital role in keeping not only South Africans safe, but also the MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 43 of 86 continent and the global community.
We would like to thank them for the sterling job they are doing in that regard.

However, with the increasing security threats in cybercrimes around the world, we urge our agencies to pull up their socks in this regard.

Our agencies must upgrade their standards and equipment in order to counter these threats.

Cybercrimes are not the only threats that must be monitored.

Extremists’ activities on our continent and around the world must also be monitored closely.
Extremists’ activities in Nigeria and in Syria cannot be ignored, as these extremists even recruit members from our own communities.

The NFP notes with concern the strange behaviour of the President of North Korea, Mr Kim Jong-Un, who can just declare any day an Armed Forces Day when he feels angry with the US’s Donald Trump.

We urge the influential leaders of the world to intervene in these tensions in order to ensure that we continue to have the safe world community of which we are a member.
Hon Minister, the NFP has no reason to reject your budget.

However, we are not sure whether it is enough to face or counter all security threats our country might face.

We also urge our government to make sure that services are delivered speedily and on time to our people, because sometimes the MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 44 of 86 innocent service delivery protests by our people can attract security threats when evil foreign agencies want to infiltrate our country.
It is our duty to exercise oversight over all state departments, including this one.

We have full rights to expose all malpractices, poor performance, corruption and maladministration.

However, as we do this job, we must guard against painting a bad picture of our security agencies to the world.

Let us not paint a picture of a useless, backward, and weak intelligence agency.
It does not give a good picture if we are the first ones to blame the intelligence agencies whenever there is a break-in in someone’s house and a dinner set is stolen.

All these things do not create a good image of our security agencies in the eyes of the international community, thereby exposing ourselves to international threats by those who might want to take a chance to test the security of our country.

As I have said before, we are all on this flight, regardless of our political caps.
The NFP supports this budget.

I thank you.

[Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson of the session, Minister of the State Security, Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here, chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and members, Director-General of the MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 45 of 86 State Security Agency, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, fellow South Africans, allow me to acknowledge the presence of two principals in the gallery – one from Moroka High School in Thaba Nchu in the Free State and the other from Groblershoop High School near Upington in the Northern Cape.
The two schools are among many that we have adopted as the State Security Agency in our quest to groom and produce a future generation of intelligence officers.

[Applause.]

In essence, this initiative is a continuation of our programme that is intended to take intelligence to the centre of our communities.

4 February 2017 ushered in the 20th anniversary of South Africa’s Constitution that was signed into law by President Nelson Mandela on 10 December 1996, and came into effect on 4 February 1997.
The theme for the constitutional celebrations is: My Constitution, My Rights, My Responsibilities.

It serves to communicate to all South Africans that with rights and freedoms comes responsibilities.

This anniversary of the Constitution coincides with the dedication of 2017 as the year to celebrate the values of Oliver Tambo as was announced by President Jacob Zuma during his state of the nation address.
This is in view of the fact that Oliver Tambo, the former President of the ANC, together MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 46 of 86 with the then leaders of the OAU, now the AU, championed and espoused the principles of the constitutional order we enjoy today.

As the intelligence community of South Africa, we pay allegiance to the Constitution as our primary directive which contains our national blueprint of the society we seek to build.
We are therefore enjoined to protect our Constitution and to ensure that we create the conditions that would enable the further transformation of our society and the consolidation of our hard-won freedoms.

We shall therefore continue to protect our constitutional order and our national values as contained in the Bill of Rights.

Therefore, we shall remain the first line of defence of the Constitution without fear or favour.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

The global geopolitical outlook is characterised by social instability, uncertainty and slow economic growth.

Considering that we are part of the global village, whatever happens in the world has a direct effect on us, hence the slow economic growth in South Africa.

His Excellency President Jacob Zuma has often made the point that political power without economic power is insufficient in bringing about a complete revolution that will deal with our country’s economic challenges.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 47 of 86 One of the critical roles of intelligence services the world over is to advise their governments on threats and opportunities emanating from the global environment, amongst other things.

It is for this reason that as the State Security Agency we are in full support of the government’s programme of radical economic transformation.

This clarion call by our government serves to address the triple challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality.
To this end, we shall strengthen our work in support of government’s economic development programmes with a view to improve economic growth.

We have recently been advised that global cybercrime is on the increase.

On Saturday the world woke up to the news of a global cyberattack which has affected more than 100 countries worldwide.

This horrifying development is yet another harsh reminder that we should be on the alert against such attacks in our own cyberspace.
This means that we need to develop more innovative techniques to protect our cyberspace against unscrupulous elements which will stop at nothing to undermine the integrity of our ICT networks.

According to the ICT report released by the World Bank recently, South Africa ranks number 58 out of 138 economies in the ICT sector.
As most of us rely heavily on our smart phones MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 48 of 86 and Internet to navigate the cyberspace and perform Internet banking and other personal activities, this new wave of threat puts South Africans at high risk of cyberhacking.

This calls on us to work together with our partners in Southern Africa, Africa and the world to combat this threat.
South Africa’s Constitution is firmly rooted in the notion of separation of powers, namely the judiciary, the legislature and the executive.

Parliament is the legislative authority in the land, comprising of two houses, i.e.

the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces.

It has power to make laws for the country in accordance with the Constitution.

On the other hand, executive authority is vested in the President who is the head of state and head of government, and his Cabinet.
The President is elected by Parliament to serve a fixed term.

The judiciary depends on moral authority to be an arbiter in disputes between organs of state and citizens.

Mnyongani, in his paper entitled, The Judiciary as a Site of the Struggle for Political Power: A South African Perspective, has this to say in his conclusion, and I quote: As the final arbiter in disputes, the courts will not avoid getting involved in disputes of a political nature.
Elements of bias, whether imagined or real, will always MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 49 of 86 arise, but the judiciary has a task to ensure that the courts continue to command moral authority.

[Applause.]

The first step towards legitimacy and commanding authority is for the courts to be independent and execute their mandate without fear, favour or prejudice ... the apartheid judiciary failed to do this.

In the early years of constitutional democracy, the courts managed to keep their independence.
However, the last few years have witnessed a heightened tension which was directly related to the succession battle within the majority ruling party.

The succession battle to the highest seat in the land turned the judiciary into the site of political struggle.

Whether damage was done to the image of the judiciary as a result or not, only time will tell.
In light of the responsibilities that the State Security Agency has, as reflected above, and in order for us to be well positioned to deliver on our mandate, we need to ensure that we position intelligence at the centre of government, and in particular as the risk management agency of government.

To do this, we have cast our eyes beyond the immediate security challenges and determined the kind of state security agency that is geared towards the challenges of the 21st century.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 50 of 86 In our view, the national security threats that would confront South Africa into the future have their origins in five strategic driving forces, namely: inadequate political and economic transformation; inappropriate management of demographic forces; negative shifts in global power configurations; critical technology-related variables; and climate change.
To this end, the State Security Agency has developed a strategic perspective that is premised on the National Development Plan but extends it to the year 2035.

We believe that as the national risk management capacity of the state, the agency should have a strategic vision on national security matters that goes beyond that of the NDP in order for it to provide early warning ...

[Interjections.]

... on potential threats and dangers which may confront our country and her people.
I alluded to the school programme when I started.

We have undertaken to engage with our young people in high schools, to enlighten them about the work we do, with a hope to planting the seed for some of them to join our community after completing their matric and junior degrees.
This programme is premised on the need to infuse within our agency young talented people, with relevant skills that are aligned to the vision of a risk management entity of government, operating in MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 51 of 86 a global environment but promoting the attainment of domestic priorities.

In conclusion, our country’s constitutional democracy is maturing, having turned 23 years old.

As part of this maturity, the country will go through challenges both politically and economically.
We are, however, encouraged by the resilience of our institutions which have continued to withstand any shocks ...

The ANC supports this Budget Vote.

[Time expired.]

[Applause.]

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ek wil vir die agb Minister vra of hy nou al die intelligensieverslag wat van Londen afkom, gelees het, want dit is op rekord dat hy dit nie gelees het nie.

Besef u wat die implikasies is as u sê: ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chair, I would like to ask the hon Minister if he has read the intelligence report by now which came from London, because it is on record that he has not read it.

Do you realise the implications of what you are saying: ...]?

``but I didn’t read the intelligence report’’.

The implication is that the President of South Africa is in charge of the state’s security.
That is what it is because even the MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 52 of 86 Minister, the political head, said he didn’t read the report but the President reacted on an intelligence report from London.

You have to answer to the people of South Africa and say who is in control.

I also want to say that there is quite a worry for the hon Minister that foreign forces are busy in South Africa because they want a regime change.

Let me say that regime change will be good for South Africa.
I want to put that on record.

What I am worried about are internal forces destabilising South Africa and I want to use specifically the Coligny case.

Two days before the march took place, there was a man - Ndebele - who walked around the community and went to the shops and told owners to close their shops because problems were coming.

That is an internal issue.


I want to make a statement and say that the present regime is so nervous about losing control that they are misusing the internal safety of South Africa.

Yes, I heard the hon Charles Nqakula who said that we must protect and ensure the safety of the people of South Africa.

[Interjections].

He knows who I am referring to, don’t you worry.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 53 of 86 So, what I want to say is that that is where the problem lies, because the people of South Africa are not protected.

I want to make the statement and say that the present government is misusing internal forces to destabilise communities, under a smoke screen of racism, to get criminals to loot, burn and threaten the community.

That is further proof that you don’t do your job.

Ek wil ’n beroep op die agb Minister doen.


Minister, u is in diens van Suid-Afrika.

U is nie in diens van die President van Suid-Afrika nie.

As u sê dat u veiligheid wil verseker vir die mense van Suid-Afrika, dan moet u die politieke konneksies los.

Begin u werk doen en sorg dat, as daar intelligensieverslae kom, dit geverifieer is en dat u as politieke hoof dit eerste lees en nie eers die President nie.

Dit beteken dan dat hy die werk uit u hande vat.

Ek dank u.
Ek dank u.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[I would like to appeal to the Minister.

Minister, you are serving South Africa.

You are not serving the President of South Africa.

If you say that you would like to ensure security for the people of South Africa, then you must leave aside the political connections.
Start doing your job and see to it, should intelligence reports be forthcoming, that they are verified and that you, as political head, read them first MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 54 of 86 and not first the President.

That would then imply that he was taking the work out of your hands.

I thank you.]

Mr M S A MASANGO: On a point of order, hon Chair.

Hon Groenewald ... House Chairperson ...

[Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): Unfortunately, his time has expired.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: He can ask his question, he is welcome.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): Your time has expired, hon Groenewald.

Mr M S A MASANGO: On a point of order.

Dr P J GROENEWALD: That’s a pity because I would love to give you the answer.
Mr M S A MASANGO: The point of order is that he is factually misleading the House by saying that internal forces are destabilising the communities at the behest of the government because, if that is the case, then he should have reported such a matter to the government.

That is factually misleading.

[Interjections.]


MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 55 of 86 The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): Thank you very much, but that is a point for debate and that is Mr Groenewald’s opinion so we can’t entertain that.

The next speaker is hon Z S Dlamini-Dubazana.

[Interjections.]

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: Can I ask you to request the hon members to stay awake if they want to ask questions in time.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon House Chair, hon Deputy President, hon members, hon Minister of State Security and the Deputy Minister, the department led by the Director-General, Arthur Fraser, good afternoon.

The ANC strongly believes in a theme which says do more with less.

The main reason is that we are all aware that there are fiscal constraints but we still need to stay true to the vows we made to the community.

We vowed to make sure that we provide safety and security.
We are saying to South Africans: The ANC is taking that to heart and we shall ensure that it is done.

I would like to share this story: On Monday, Mr Strydom, who went to Number Four Prison in Johannesburg and looked at what was happening and listened to the stories said, and I quote: “How do I forgive after I have heard about the things that MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 56 of 86 happened in this prison?” That prison is the same prison where Mama Ngoyi and Joe Slovo were held.
Today people look at State Security like it is not doing anything and has forgotten our yesterdays.

The ANC recognises the seriousness of the illicit economic activities that are conducted within our country.

I just want to give a little lecture - when we talk about the illicit economy we are not referring to cash, in the same way the members in this House will talk about the Guptas.

Illicit economy refers to human trafficking, counterfeit goods and other things.
So, you can choose to close your ears if you do not know and have never been to school.

Illicit economy refers to many things and, as a result, the Minister, together with the Deputy Minister and the department, are dealing with this concept of illicit economy and making sure that they drive the ANC values of ensuring that South Africans are all safe, irrespective of colour or creed, across the spectrum.
As the ANC, we also acknowledge that there is a problem with deploying cadres to the bases – which is where we strongly believe they should be.

I am endorsing this because we deploy trained professionals and experienced cadres for one reason: You can’t buy honesty or loyalty; there is no price for that.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 57 of 86 I do not care how much you shout at me.

The bottom line is that, because of that, the ANC will do it and nobody is going to stop us.
As the ANC, we also say that there are microeconomic factors which are so bad that they are - you know, the guilty always feel bad - automatically dropping the economic outlook and the currency so much that we find ourselves having to work and do more with little because we are still facing the three enemies: inequality, unemployment and poverty.

We need to fight these enemies.


Based on that, we need to be appreciative of the Department of State Security for establishing a research, development and analysis unit.

However, we are saying ...

[Interjections.]

Ms E N LOUW: On a point of order Chair.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): Hon member, there is a point of order.

What’s the point of order?


Ms E N LOUW: Hon Chair, the guests in the gallery are not supposed to take part in the debate but they continue making statements behind us.

They are not allowed to take part in the debate.

This guy is continuing and if he doesn’t stop he must be thrown out because this is our debate - our work.

He is not MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 58 of 86 supposed to take part in the debate.

I expect an immediate ruling because what these guys are doing is rude.
They are throwing things at us.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): Point taken, hon member.

Thank you very much for bringing that to my attention.

I am sure guests are aware that they are not supposed to participate in the debate.

I have not heard them participating but, if they are, I want to make a special plea to them: Guests, you should know that you are not part of the debate.

Continue, hon member.


Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon House Chair, I was interrupted when I was endorsing and appreciating an ANC initiative that was taken by the Department of State Security to establish the research, development and analysis unit.

Before I was interrupted I was saying that the ANC appreciates that the unit is being headed by a trained professional and experienced cadre.

This is because we want loyalty since you can’t determine or confirm people’s behaviour.
That is why it is better to have a trained and experienced cadre.

Over and above that, we are saying that we need to have an economic intelligence unit so that while we have the division, MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 59 of 86 the information that gets collected is analysed and given to the relevant departments that will make sure we act ahead of time to stop any economic risk rather than be reactive.

Based on that, we say well done.

That shows that you are going to do more.


Some things were highlighted by members that spoke before me.

It is painful that you decided not to be within a space that is going to enlighten, empower and give you more information about issues ...

[Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): Hon member, you are left with one minute.

Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: ... that are sensitive, pertaining the country.

You come here and mislead the community of South Africa.
There are no internal forces that are destabilising this unit.

It is only those very same people who run away from being vetted.

The ANC supports this budget.

Thank you.

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Hon Chair, it is the task of a regularised and neutral intelligence community to provide government and the South African public with independent risk assessment to protect the communities they serve.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 60 of 86 We have, however, recently seen the intelligence committee either being partisan to ANC factional battles or being misused by politicians.

Both scenarios are inexcusable in a modern constitutional democratic dispensation.
The recent use by the President of the so-called intelligence report to fire the former Finance Minister and his Deputy can only mean that a certain structure of the intelligence society used the report to assist President Zuma to settle a factional dispute in having the Minister and his deputy fired.

Alternatively, it possibly means that an intelligence structure may have used an intelligence report to obtain a political outcome suitable to its political masters.
Both scenarios are unacceptable and illustrate unconstitutional actions by intelligence structures in the ANC government which should be rooted out immediately.

Following legal action by the DA requesting reasons from the President as to why he fired Minister Pravin Gordhan and Deputy Minister Mcebisi Jonas, the truth will soon be revealed.

The legal framework of the intelligence services appears to be defective and in need of reconsideration.
Acts reflecting the approach by the previous apartheid government are still on the Statute Book and, despite the General Laws Amendment Act passed in 2013, a careful analysis of the legal framework is required to ensure that it conforms to the Constitution.

Urgent attention MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 61 of 86 by the Standing Committee on Intelligence is therefore required in this regard.
Recent media coverage concerning Minister David Mahlobo and his alleged links with a massage parlour owner have done a major disservice to the services.

The unfortunate death of a motorist in which the ANC Minister’s official vehicle was involved has created further damage to the image and integrity of the intelligence services and its political head.

As a broader democratic society, we are duty-bound to hold the intelligence services to account.
The recent appointment of the Inspector-General of Intelligence will assist in dealing with complaints against intelligence structures.

It is important that inspector-general remains independent and alert to any alleged form of kleptocracy or autocracy by the services, and reports fearlessly to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence.

The latest media reports related to the global virus WannaCry worm illustrates the need for effective cybersecurity measures in curbing a growing cyberwar phenomenon.
South Africa needs to be able to rely on modern and effective equipment for rooting out this illegal activity in a responsible and accountable manner.

It is clear that more needs to be done in this respect.

We are all duty bound to ensure that MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 62 of 86 intelligence services account responsibly and act in a responsible manner.

I thank you.

Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, first things first, the ANC supports this Budget Vote.
Where I come from they always say ... ... kuhlala kukhona abathanda ukubukwa ... [... there are those who always like attention ...] ... without showing anything of substance.

In this budget and for this department specifically, it is about information collection, information gathering and supplying it to the relevant authorities.

As we speak right now, South Africa is facing a wave of hostility that is led in the main because some people lack information on foreign- sponsored people.
The words ``wave of hostility’’ refers to a propaganda-stain campaign aimed at mutilating and, at worst, liquidating the governing party.

The purpose is to invoke unprecedented hostility towards the governing party by citizenry and thus unleash a choreographed and systematically orchestrated resentment that may lead to an open rebellion if not arrested.

This is aimed at derailing the government’s transformation agenda and it is not new to South Africa.
It has happened in other countries, starting with Vietnam.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 63 of 86 Over the years, the government through the liberation Constitution has allowed some foreign-founded NGOs and agencies to operate freely in this country.

These agencies portray themselves as humanitarian agencies whilst they also seek to undermine a democratically elected government.

We have seen the mushrooming of these NGOs and, most recently, foundations.
They have infiltrated different areas of society including the judiciary, which they have effectively turned into a coalition against the government.

This is visible through the active role of information peddlers.

Some of them are also here in Parliament and in this House.
In the majority of cases information peddlers have been serving as convenient conduits used by western governments to orchestrate disinformation, dirty tricks, social engineering and overall covert operations aimed at hurting the reputation of this government and its leaders.

It is notable that the majority of individual information peddlers who had links with apartheid security agencies prior to 1994 remain active.
Most of these individuals are currently active in private intelligence companies or work as individual intelligence consultants.

We really miss some of the members of this House in the committee who do not attend for one or other reasons, otherwise they would be empowered.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 64 of 86 There is also the issue of the privatisation of prosecutions; this is part of the offensive against government.
Although private prosecution is one of the options made available in the South African litigation system, the adoption of this route is suspect.

Intelligence observations indicate that private prosecution is aimed at reinforcing the legal-based campaign against this ANC-led government.
This is because some NGOs behind the establishment of private prosecutions have been pursuing a legal route centred on the exploitation of section 89 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa to have, for instance, some people enjoy because they have nothing else to do; they will always say that the President must be removed from office on the ground of serious misconduct or violation.

There is also the subversion of governance processes through courts of law.
The Constitution empowers the judiciary to review and set aside any legislation which it deems to be inconsistent with the spirit and object of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

The Constitutional Court is empowered to interpret the Constitution and, by so doing often delve into matters belonging to the political arena, thus interfering with the functioning of the executive and the legislature.
In practice, it means that the majority of judges, regardless of race have been inherited from the MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 65 of 86 apartheid system and are better positioned to subvert and/or sabotage the government’s transformation agenda.

The South African legal system has allowed foreign funded NGOs to continuously frustrate governance processes through court proceedings.
The untransformed legal system in South Africa continues to serve the interests of the few Anglo-American interests at the expense of the majority who are at the receiving end of injustice.

When the government attempts to reform the legal system, NGOs accuse it of stacking the judicial system with compliant political voices.

There are also efforts to control the legislative process.

Foreign-sponsored agencies are also involved in attempts to control and shape the legislative process in South Africa.
To date they have managed to delay the finalisation of the Protection of State Information Bill and its enactment into law.

This is because the Bill is aimed at protecting the South African state against hostile foreign forces.

Contrary to the attitude towards the Protection of State Information Bill, foreign-funded NGOs were pressuring the President to sign the Financial Intelligence Centre Amendment Bill into law.
In conclusion, there are two major things which might bring stability into our country: firstly, it is to speed up radical economic transformation and, secondly, it is the expropriation MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 66 of 86 of land without compensation.

[Applause.]

On this one, my branch has mandated me to submit a motion.

Watch this space.

Lastly, I want to thank the Minister and the Deputy Minister of State Security.

If it was not for your vision and foresight, South Africa would be in ashes by now.
I thank you.

[Applause.]

Ms E N LOUW: Hon Chair, on a point of order.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): What is your point of order?

Ms E N LOUW: Chair, I think that you must rule on it and make it very serious because I think that this facility is not suitable for us to have debates.

For us as Members of Parliament to interject is allowed, but I think that guests feel the need to participate in our interjections.

That is not allowed.


We as Members of Parliament are voted in and it is our constitutional right to ...

[Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): Okay, hon member, I have heard you.

Ms E N LOUW: No, it is very serious ... MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 67 of 86 The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): No.

I have heard your point.

Ms E N LOUW: We could have security breaches here.

Mr Maseko must take note.

Please, I am not finished with my point of order.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): No, sit down.

I have heard your point.

Thank you very much.

The next speaker is hon Stubbe.

Ms E N LOUW: Hon Chairperson, you need to rule on it.

I have raised a point of order and you need to rule on it.

That is how it works.

[Interjections.]

I know that you may be new to it but you are not new in Parliament.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): No, I have ruled.

Now sit down, hon member.


No, sit down.

I have ruled on the matter.

Ms E N LOUW: You did not rule on it.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): I ruled on the matter earlier on and I have not heard anybody interjecting.

I have not heard anybody.

I am saying that I have not heard MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 68 of 86 anybody interjecting and participating in the debate.

You might have heard yourself and I am saying that I did ... Ms E N LOUW: [Inaudible.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): I did.

Listen, listen, listen, listen!

Ms E N LOUW: I am not going to be intimidated by a nonparliamentarian.

[Interjections.]

Ms D E DLAKUDE: On a point of order, hon Chairperson.

Hon Chair, on a point of order!

On a point of order!

[Interjections.]

Hon Chairperson, on a point of order!

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): No, you can’t behave in the manner in which you are behaving, hon member.

Ms D E DLAKUDE: I rest my case.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): I have ruled on this matter.

You cannot continue arguing on the ruling that I have made.

That is not being honourable.

Ms E N LOUW: [Inaudible.]

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 69 of 86 The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): Now I have ruled on the matter, so what do you want me to do?

[Interjections.]

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Chair, can I ask that we restore order.
Can you just appeal to the public again to please refrain from any comments, then we can continue?

Thank you.

Mr P J MNGUNI: House Chair, in terms of the string of points of order that have been raised, the point raised by hon Louw had been raised earlier, on which you ruled.

She is repeating herself unnecessarily, and she is not supposed to do that.

The second one is that we request your courtesy and that when you take points of order on the floor you also look this side ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): Order!

Hon Louw, the member is on the floor.

You must respect him as well.

Hon Mnguni, proceed.

Mr P J MNGUNI: The hon Deputy Chief Whip had her hand up for quite some time, even before hon Groenewald who just stood up and spoke into the microphone without having been recognised.

Thank you.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): I said to the public that you are allowed in.
You have been invited to be MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 70 of 86 part of this but you are not allowed to debate, participate or interfere with the discussion taking place.

You are here to observe, nothing less, nothing more.

We make a special plea to the gallery to respect that.

Thank you very much.

Hon Stubbe, please proceed.

Mnr D J STUBBE: Voorsitter, ek hoop nie my tyd is al om nie.
Een van die funksies en verantwoordelikhede van die Suid- Afrikaanse Staatsveiligheidsagentskap, SSA, is om die inwoners van Suid-Afrika te beskerm teen ’n buitelandse bedreiging.

Ons is relatief veilig as gevolg van amptenare wat ’n positiewe ingesteldheid en ’n passie het vir hul land en hul beroep.

Terrorisme maak wêreldwyd opslae, en die vraag ontstaan of ons intelligensiedienste kan volhard om enige vorm van terreur af te weer.
Verskeie faktore maak dat Suid-Afrika in ’n ideale teelaarde kan ontwikkel waar ekstremisme kan gedy.

In die onlangse verlede was daar dan ook verskeie voorvalle wat daarop dui dat Suid-Afrika ’n terreuraanval te wagte kan wees.

Die aanwesigheid van ongewenste persone is ’n direkte uitvloeisel van korrupsie in departemente wat georganiseerde misdaad ondersteun.

Dit, Minister, is ’n bedreiging vir die staat.


Daar is nie groei in ons ekonomie nie; dit veroorsaak dat duisende mense werkloos is en in armoede lewe, sonder MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 71 of 86 behoorlike dienslewering.

Dit is ’n bedreiging.

Onwettige handel in dwelms, ivoor en renosterhoring is ’n bedreiging.

Die eenheid wat in die Suid-Afrikaanse Inkomstediens gevestig is om smokkelhandel in sigarette te bekamp, word summier ontbind, en persone word afgedank.
Op hierdie wyse word lede van die regerende party beskerm, en die smokkelhandel kan ongestoord voortgaan.

Minister, dit is ’n bedreiging.

President Jacob Zuma se beheptheid met die Gupta-familie en staatskaping het gelei tot die afdanking van die voormalige Minister van Finansies.

Minister, dit is ’n bedreiging.


Ons kredietgradering wat tot rommelstatus geklassifiseer is, is ’n direkte uitvloeisel van die President se onbesonne beheptheid met die Gupta-plunderaars, maar Minister, u sien dit blykbaar nie as ’n bedreiging vir die staat se veiligheid nie.

In plaas daarvan dat u eerder ’n positiewe rol speel om die ekonomie te beskerm en daardeur te verseker dat daar vir almal werksgeleenthede geskep word, verkies u om dit wat opsigtelik verkeerd is, te beskerm.
Dit is dan ook geen wonder dat u om al die verkeerde redes in die pers aangehaal word nie.

Ek noem maar ’n paar.

Dit begin in 2015 met die opening van die Parlement toe u opdrag gegee het dat alle selfoonseine geblokkeer word.

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 72 of 86 Op 6 Maart 2015 word ’n verklaring deur u departement uitgereik dat Adv Thuli Madonsela en andere ondersoek word vir hul betrokkenheid by die Amerikaanse Sentrale Intelligensie- agentskap.
Op 16 Augustus 2015 versoek u Ntuli Zuma om die presidentswoning te verlaat.

Op 26 September 2015 maak u die aankondiging dat Arthur Fraser as direkteur-generaal aangestel word, ten spyte van die aantygings teen hom in die Mail & Guardian.

Op 13 November 2016 reik Al Jazeera ’n verslag uit rakende u beweerde betrokkenheid by onwettige handel met renosterhoring.

Op 9 Desember 2016 word u daarvan beskuldig dat ’n nuwe vakbond gestig word om anti-ANC vakbonde te destabiliseer.
Op 31 Januarie 2017 ontken u dat u met Mcebo Dlamini van #FeesMustFall vergader het, terwyl u kort van tevore verklaar dat hy by verskeie geleenthede by u aan huis was.

Op 26 Februarie 2017 is daar ’n verwysing na ’n perskonferensie op 2 Maart 2016, wat verband hou met 27 beuselagtige klagtes teen lede van die sogenaamde “Sars Rogue Unit.” Op 5 Maart 2017 maak u uitsprake rakende sogenaamde pogings tot regimeverandering.
Op 6 Maart 2017 is daar sprake van die beperking van sosiale media en internettoegang.

Laastens, op 11 Mei 2017, word in ’n Mail & Guardian opinie-artikel ook na verskeie negatiewe voorvalle verwys waarby u glo betrokke sou wees.

Minister, iets is drasties verkeerd by u departement.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 73 of 86 Die DA sal verseker dat daar skoon, effektiewe administrasie kom, waar die regte en veiligheid van almal beskerm word, eerder as ’n diens wat daarop ingestel is om die negatiewe en bevoordeelde elite te beskerm.

Dit sal help om ons demokrasie weer op koers te kry.

Ek dank u.

[Applous.]

(Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr D J STUBBE: Chairperson, I hope my time has not yet expired.
One of the functions and responsibilities of the SA State Security Agency, SSA, is to protect the residents of South Africa against threats from abroad.

We are relatively safe thanks to officials who have a positive attitude and a passion for their country and their profession.

Terrorism raises comment worldwide, and the question arises as to whether our intelligence services are able to persist in warding off any form of terror.
Different factors make it possible that South Africa can become an ideal breeding ground where experiments could flourish.

In the recent past, there have indeed been various incidents that indicate that South Africa could be awaiting a terror attack.

The presence of undesirable persons is a direct consequence of corruption in departments that support organised crime.

That, Minister, is a threat to the state.


There is no growth in our economy; this MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 74 of 86 results in thousands of people being unemployed and living in poverty, without proper service delivery.

This is a threat.

Illegal trading in drugs, ivory and rhino horn is a threat.

The unit located in the SA Revenue Service for curbing the smuggling of cigarettes is summarily dissolved and people are dismissed.
In this way members of the ruling party are protected, and the smuggling can continue undisturbed.

Minister, this is a threat.

President Jacob Zuma’s obsession with the Gupta family and state capture has led to the dismissal of the previous Minister of Finance.

This is a threat.
This is a threat.

Our credit rating that has been classified to junk status is a direct consequence of the President’s ridiculous obsession with the Gupta looters but, Minister, you apparently do not see this as a threat to the safety of the state.

Instead of rather playing a positive role in protecting the economy and thus ensuring that job opportunities are created for everyone, you prefer protecting that which is clearly wrong.
Consequently, it is no wonder that you are being quoted in the press for all the wrong reasons.

I will mention only a few.

It started in 2015 with the opening of Parliament when you gave instruction for all cell phone signals to be blocked.

On 6 March 2015 a statement was issued by your department that Adv Thuli Madonsela and others were being investigated MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 75 of 86 regarding their involvement with the American Central Intelligence Agency.
On 16 August 2015 you requested Ntuli Zuma to leave the presidential residence.

On 26 September 2016 you made the announcement that Arthur Fraser had been appointed as director general, in spite of the accusations levelled against him in the Mail & Guardian.

On 13 November 2016 Al Jazeera issued a report concerning your alleged involvement in illegal trade in rhino horn.

On 9 December 2016 you were accused of establishing a new trade union to destabilise anti-ANC trade unions.
On 31 January 2017 you denied that you had met with Mcebo Dlamini of #FeesMustFall, while shortly before that you stated that he had visited your home on various occasions.

On 26 February 2017 reference was made to a press conference held on 2 March 2016, which had a bearing on 27 silly complaints against members of the so-called “Sars Rogue Unit.” On 5 March 2017 you made statements regarding so-called efforts to bring about regime change.
On 6 March 2017 there was talk of limiting social media and Internet access.

Finally, on 11 May 2017 an opinion piece in the Mail & Guardian also referred to several negative incidents in which you were apparently involved.

Minister, there is something drastically wrong in your department.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 76 of 86 The DA will ensure that clean, effective administration comes into being, where the rights and safety of everyone are protected rather than to have a service focussed on the negative and privileged elite.

This will help us to get our democracy on track once again.

I thank you.

[Applause.]]


Mr J SKOSANA: Hon Chairperson, His Excellency the Deputy President, hon Minister of State Security and the Deputy Minister Molekane, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here, Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, Mr Nqakula, Director-General of State Security and Inspector General, Dr Dintwe, hon members, distinguished guests and fellow South Africans, I greet you all.
Ebizweni lehlangano ebusako i-ANC ngisikima nokwamukela nokusekela isAbelomali soMnyango kaNgqongqotjhe ubaba uMahlobo nokuhlathulula banzi umgomo wokusebenza komNyango wokuVikelwa koMbuso.

[State Security Agency.]

Lomnyango uhlathulula banzi bona uzokusebenza bunjani ngeentjhijilo ohlangabezana nazo.

(Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)


[In the name of the ruling party, the ANC, I rise to welcome and support the budget of the department led by Minister Mahlobo and to explain more about the policy functions of the State Security Agency.

This department explains more as to how it is going to deal with challenges that it is facing.]
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 77 of 86 Hon Chairperson, I should think it is important to indicate that the government planning process through the National Development Plan sets out a clear vision of where we would like to be as this country in 2030.

It talks of how we would have dealt with the triple challenges of unemployment, inequality and poverty.
However, in order for this country to achieve its objective, we need to ensure that we have a plan to deal with and protect the critical information and infrastructure of government which houses the information database of millions and millions of ordinary South Africans.
The threat that arises from unsecured cyberspace for our country is huge: For instance, the disruption in governance, economic activity and the delivery of essential services such as water and electricity supply, transport, security, health and many more; the blunting of the political, economic and the competitive edge resulting from the compromising of sensitive information systems or the manipulation thereof; the significant losses incurred as a result of cybercrime of various forms; the infringement on the sovereignty of democratic governance and political process inclusive of elections, as we have seen in the United States of America; and the explosion of the cybersphere as an enabler for other forms of crime, undemocratic and illegal activities.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 78 of 86 The ANC policy document has always sought the position that develops a roadmap towards the Fourth Industrial Revolution and ensuring that our Information Communication and Technology, ICT, industry does become a significant driver of the national democratic revolution and the attainment of a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous South Africa.
The State Security Agency must be given the support it needs in order to deliver on its mandate and help to protect our cyberspace.

I will come back to my speech and first address some of the issues raised here.

First is the issue vis-à-vis the intelligence report given by the President to the former Minister of Finance, Comrade Pravin.

I do not know why the FF Plus has so much interest in this matter.

Pravin is a member of the ANC and he is not a member of the FF Plus.
Even if those changes were made, I do not think it is proper for anyone to lament the matter.

If you want to pursue the matter, there are legal processes that can be followed.

[Interjections.]

The President has used the rules and the Constitution to deal with his work on the reshuffling and other matters; we cannot just come here to grandstand and talk about the intelligence report all the time.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 79 of 86 I must say the appointment of the Inspector General took such a long time was because not all of us agreed on this matter.

As Parliament, we disagreed on the matter but found the way and we came up with the name of Dr Dintwe, the newly appointed Inspector General.

We now do have an Inspector General.

Now, on the issue of rhino poaching, for those who do not know, rhino poaching belongs to environmental affairs.
If you want information on it, go to Environmental Affairs or come to me after this debate and I will give you more information on this matter of rhino poaching from Environmental Affairs.

[Interjections.]

Hon Chairperson, I have a problem.

Lokha umuntu nakathunyelwa epini bona ayokulwa ipi, afike lapho alwe ipi engasiyo nangayaziko njengoMhlonitjhwa uMhlongo ojamele ihlangano ye-EFF.

Uze lapha ukuzokhuluma ngoMongameli nomndeni wakwa-Gupta.

(Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)


[Somebody is sent to fight a war, but fights the wrong war when he arrives there, like hon Mhlongo who represents the EFF party but is here to talk about the President and the Gupta family.]

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 80 of 86 In State Security we do not have the Guptas and we do not have the President dealing with issues of intelligence.

Thina into esiyenzako lapha, sisebenza ngeendaba zobuhlakani.
Uza lapha uzokhuluma ngeendaba eziphathelene namapholisa nobaba uMdluli.

Angazi Sihlalo bona akaboni bona usebujameni obungasibo nanyana akaboni na?

Kodwana mina ngithatha bona akazi bona ukuphi, kuthiwe khamba uyolwa, ufika ulwa ipi angayaziko.

Akayazi ipi le.

[Iwahlo.]

(Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)

[What we are doing here is deal with issues of intelligence.

You are coming here to talk about issues that affect the police and Mr Mdluli.
I don’t know, Chairperson, whether he is aware that he is at the wrong place.

I take him to be a person who does not know where he is.

He is told to fight and he arrives here and fights a war that he doesn’t understand.

He does not know this war.

[Applause.]]

Hon Mhlongo from the EFF and your colleagues, we are still waiting for your member who has been sent to us to work on this intelligence committee.

That member must come for vetting.

[Applause.]


And if you have an interest or anyone who has an interest in intelligence matters, come along and we will give you an opportunity; you will be vetted and you will MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 81 of 86 participate fully, and you will know how to talk about the issues of intelligence.

[Interjections.]

Mr S P MHLONGO: Chair, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member, what is your point of order?
Mr S P MHLONGO: Hon House Chair, the EFF has got a lot of work; it cannot go to a useless committee.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member, that is not a point of order.

Continue, hon member.

Mr J J SKOSANA: Hon Chairperson, in order to address these deficiencies and the risks posed by cyber-insecurity, the State Security Agency, SSA, has prioritised the following initiatives and actions.
Firstly, they will fast-track the capacitation of cybersecurity structures as envisaged by the National Cybersecurity Policy Framework.

This includes the National Cybersecurity Centre.

Secondly, they will strengthen co-operation on cybersecurity with the Southern African Development Community, SADC, African Union, AU and Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, Brics, partners.

Thirdly, they will finalise consultations on the National Cybersecurity Policy with the public and private sectors.
MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 82 of 86 Hon Chairperson, as I conclude, I want to say that, as the ANC, we support this budget.

[Laughter.]

Siragela phambili nokuvikela iphasi lekhethu iSewula Afrika.

Siyaquba.

[Re tswelela pele].

Siyathokoza.

[Iwahlo.]

[We will continue to protect our country, South Africa.

Thank you.

[Applause.]]

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chair of the session and His Excellency our Deputy President Ramaphosa, on behalf of the department we thank members for their inputs.
But, with due respect to those who sit with us in the committee, I must raise my disappointment.

I must thank hon Mncwabe.

The security of our country is everybody’s business.

We had an agreement that, whatever we do, we will put our politics aside.

But, ultimately, when some of these things happened here, they reminded me of the words of our former president, Tambo.
I want to repeat them for South Africa to see us as leaders, and I quote: The victories of the national liberation movements were in most cases not easy, smooth and complete, nor was the retreat of the imperialist always unplanned or a complete defeat.

Imperialism resorted to many political, military, economic and MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 83 of 86 other stratagems to extend its lease of life and to save as much as it could in its erstwhile colonies.

South Africa will never be an exception.


They will not let us go.

There is a major issue that confronts us as leaders.

Leaders across the globe, even in our own country, have a unique opportunity to advance humanity by developing policies and strategies that must promote peace and stability which is coexistent.

As South Africans, let’s wake up to the reality that when we raise security issues, either politically or economically, there is a fundamental issue that has become a problem - our economy.
As we continue on this path we must agree as a nation to try to defend the status quo.

The system is unsustainable.

As a nation, we cannot continue having the majority of our people being held back in the country of their birth by economic bondage.

The majority of our people are still suffering from poverty, inequality and unemployment.

These people are human too.

Let’s work tirelessly in our own diversity as South Africans and through united action to embrace them to realise their potential.
We are not going to run away from giving hope and the vision of what the ANC stands for because there are those who are offering nothing.

We are in a journey to build a country where MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 84 of 86 a society is going to be truly united.

We will be nonracial, nonsexist and democratic but, more importantly, prosperous.

You can have something today, but if some continue to be poor the children of the poor are going to eat the children of the rich.

That’s not sustainable.


With due respect, there are those people who come with revolutionary slogans, but will never give you a revolutionary advance.

Mhlonishwa bab’uNjomane, hhayi ubukhuluma ngenye inkulumompikiswano.

Uhlanganisa amaphoyisa kanye nathi.

Ngelinye ilanga ulethe ilungu lenu elimqoka sizokwazi ukuthi ngilivethe [do vetting] kodwa uhlanganisa izinto.

Amalungu ahloniphekile ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Hon member Njomane (clan name for the Mhlongo surname), you were debating in a different Budget Vote.

You confused issues of policing with those of this department.

Some day you need to bring a high-profile member from your party whom I shall vet first.

As for yourself, you are confusing issues.

The hon members ...] ... must be knowledgeable people who, when they speak about issues of the state, they speak correctly.

Chief Cebekhulu, thank you very much.


Any death, irrespective of our standing, is regrettable, and we need to be able to do whatever it takes.

Our condolences go to those people who have lost their MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 85 of 86 loved ones.

To try to use any death to score political points is stooping low.

We must be able, as a nation, to say crime does not pay and we must be able to deal with it.
On terrorism, as a last point, we want to thank our guests who are here, especially those from the Muslim Judicial Council.

As South Africans, we have avoided reducing matters of terrorism to religion.

We work with these communities tirelessly behind the scenes because we don’t want to get any acclamation.

Tirelessly we continue with the help of the men and women who keep our country safe whether in state security, crime intelligence or defence intelligence.
The leadership of Defence and the leadership of the Police are here.

These men and women are our unsung heroes and heroines.

You will continue to enjoy your liberties and freedoms because we are not going to rest on our laurels until South Africa achieves its vision.

Along the way there will be detractors, but we are not going to be distracted.
Lastly, again, I want to thank the leadership of the ANC, our President, our Deputy President, the leadership from provinces, the Youth League, uMkhonto weSizwe Military Veterans Association, MKMVA, and more importantly, my wife, my sisters and my cousins who are there.

Sibonge kakhulu, Sihlalo [Ihlombe.]

[Thank you very much, Chairperson.

[Time expired.]

[Applause.]

MPS-BV07 16 MAY 2017 PAGE 86 of 86 Debate concluded.

The mini-plenary session rose at 16:02.