Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698940951343.pdf (South Africa)
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 1 of 177 TUESDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES ____ The Council met at 14:02.

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr R J Tau) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NO MOTIONS The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will not be any motions, except for those printed on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip.
ESTABLISHMENT OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE IN TERMS OF JOINT RULE 138 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I move: That, notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting of the Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 2 of 177 considers the draft resolution on the establishment of an ad hoc joint committee in terms of Joint Rule 138.

I will not go into the background information.

It is as given there.

It is recorded.


That committee should report to the National Council of Provinces by 10 November 2016, in accordance with the provisions of the Code.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
ESTABLISHMENT OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE TO RECONSIDER ALLEGATION OF NONDISCLOSURE BY THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows: That the Council— (1) notes— 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 3 of 177 (a) the findings and recommendation in the Second Report of Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests regarding the alleged failure by the Leader of the Opposition, Mr M A Maimane, to disclose a certain sponsorship he received in support of his nomination as party leader at the elective conference of the DA in 2015; and (b) the subsequent ruling of the Western Cape High Court in the matter Maimane and other v Chairperson of the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests, Parliament and others, dated 23 June 2016, which found, inter alia, that none of the members of the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests who participated in the decision taken on 17 February 2016 and/or 16 March 2016 may participate in the reconsideration of the matter; and (2) resolves, subject to the concurrence of the National Assembly, to establish an ad hoc joint committee in terms of Joint Rule 138, the committee to— (a) reconsider the allegation of nondisclosure by the Leader of the Opposition; (b) consist of 14 members of the National Assembly, as follows: ANC, 8; DA, 3; EFF, 1; and other parties, 2; and 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 4 of 177 9 members of the National Council of Provinces, having due regard for the judgment of the Western Cape High Court; (c) notwithstanding any other Joint Rule to the contrary, exercise those powers and functions in the following Joint Rules that it may deem necessary for the performance of its task, including powers and functions specifically assigned to the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests by these Rules— i.
Joint Rule 32, which provides for the general powers of a joint committee; ii.

Joint Rule 124(1)(a), which provides for the power to implement the Code of Ethical Conduct and Disclosure of Members’ Interests for Assembly and permanent Council members (the Code), as set out in the Schedule to the Joint Rules; iii.
Joint Rule 124(1)(e), which provides for the power to perform the other functions and exercise the other powers reasonably assigned to the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests in the Code and in terms of resolutions adopted in both Houses; 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 5 of 177 iv.
Joint Rule 125, which provides that meetings must be held in closed session when a matter affecting a specific Assembly or Council member is being considered and the matter is regarded to be confidential; v. Joint Rule 127, which provides that each committee member and alternative member must swear or affirm, before either the Speaker or the Chairperson of the Council, depending on the House of which that person is a member, to comply with the requirements of confidentiality set out in the Code, as well as each member of staff assigned for the work of the committee; and vi.
Joint Rule 126, which provides that a question is decided when there is agreement on the question among the majority of members present, provided at least half of its members are present; and (d) report to the National Council of Provinces by 10 November 2016, in accordance with the provisions of the Code.
Declarations of vote: 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 6 of 177 Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chairperson, the Western Cape wants to draw the attention of the Council to the fact that the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests is the committee that has to rule and to be very ethical in their decisions.
It is an embarrassment to Parliament that the Leader of the Opposition had to go to court to get a ruling on certain procedures and processes that have been followed by the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests, while a lot of members on that committee - while the committee was in sitting - pointed to the fact that they were not following the Rules and procedures.
Therefore, the Western Cape declares that we support this motion and that we will really have an overview on the subcommittee that is going to be established not to follow the same processes.

This is not in the good interests of the National Council of Provinces or the National Assembly, or of the parliamentarians, in general.

Thank you.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chairperson, it is very important that members of the public, particularly those who purport to be high and above standard, also follow suit.
To contest on the basis of procedure and Rules is a question of evading the reality of the matter.

The reality of the matter is that a requirement to disclose anything is incumbent upon any member who is under oath and who believes and always shouts and dances about anticorruption, ethics, and so on.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 7 of 177 It is an indictment on the Leader of the Opposition for it not to have been disclosed, even if it was one cent.
Therefore, to go and hide behind procedure and Rules is unacceptable.

We believe that he must live a clean life.

He must lead in that direction just as he requires everybody else to do.

If Parliament can, it must make sure that the matter is dealt with fairly, procedurally, and ethically, as it ought to be.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY GOVERNANCE Cluster 3 MINISTERS: Municipal infrastructure backlog 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 8 of 177 129.

Mr M J Mohapi (ANC) asked the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs: (a) What is the current backlog in the municipal infrastructure and (b) when will this backlog be eradicated (details furnished)?
CO343E The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: A ke leboge sebaka se ke se filweng Motlatsamodulasetulo.

[Deputy Chairperson, thank you for affording me this opportunity.]

Perhaps I should indicate that the current backlog of municipal infrastructure, as reflected in the Statistics SA Community Survey Report of 2016, is as follows.

On water supply, accessibility backlogs for piped water supply stands at 4,3 million households, which is equal to 26%.
On safe drinking water backlogs, the statistic stands at 2,5 million households, which is equal to 15%.

On sanitation, households without improved sanitation ... this means the national sanitation backlog is at 5,4 million, which translates to 32%.

On electricity, the electricity backlog of households without connection is about 2,145 million, which is equal to 13,34%.

On solid waste or refuse removal, the backlog is 4,51 million households and it equates to 25,8%.
The backlog, in this instance, 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 9 of 177 relates to an approximation of households that have own disposal without supervision.

On roads, the estimated road plan backlog is 69 200 km.

This includes paved roads, gravel roads, and tracks, which is equivalent to 26,33%.

Now, these are just statistics from Statistics SA.


According to our Medium-Term Strategic Framework 2014-19, the infrastructure backlog eradication targets for the various sectors, indicated above, is planned as follows.

On water supply, 90% of households will have access to reliable water services by 2019.

Of course, the remaining 10%, plus growth in population, will be addressed as part of the 2030 Millennium Development Goals of universal access to services.
On improved sanitation, 90% of households will have access to functional sanitation services by 2019.

The remaining 10%, plus growth in population, will be addressed as part of the 2030 Millennium Development Goals of universal access to services.

On electricity, a total of 1,4 million additional households will be connected to the grid and an additional 105 000 to nongrid energy supplies by 2019.
Ninety per cent of all households are expected to 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 10 of 177 have access to electricity by 2030, with the rest making use of nongrid solutions.

On solid waste management or waste removal, 80% of households will have access to an acceptable refuse removal service by 2019.

The remaining 20%, plus growth in population, will be addressed as part of the 2030 Millennium Development Goals of universal access to services.
On roads and storm water, in 2015-16, the Department of Transport made a provision of R12 billion to deal with the road infrastructure-related work in order to address existing backlogs by 2018-19.

This allocated amount will eradicate the targeted backlog of 69 200 km.

The same amount should be allocated with a certain annual percentage increase up to 2030, in line with the National Development Plan, NDP.

Thank you.

Mr J M MTHETHWA: Deputy Chair, I thank the hon Minister for the satisfactory answers.
My follow-up question is: Hon Minister, are there any penalties to those municipalities that fail to spend their municipal infrastructure grants, Migs?

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, as you are aware, because it happened just recently, there is, obviously, a provision for a Mig to be allocated to those municipalities that are in need, compared to those who can’t spend 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 11 of 177 their Mig.

But that is not a priority for our Ministry.


Our priority, currently, is to make sure that municipalities are capacitated appropriately so that they can expand on this important allocation - because, remember, as we re-allocate, we deny our people the most needed services.

So, that is not a priority.

Our priority, for now, through the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, is to intervene in areas where we think there are capacity problems.
I will cite just one good example where we intervened successfully.

In Sekhukhune, they nearly missed an allocation of no less than R40 million for it to be re-allocated.

We intervened through the Misa intervention approach and, as a result, that money was used as expected.

As we speak, services have been rendered to our people in the affected area.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Deputy Chair, I would like to thank the hon Minister for the comprehensive response.
Given the hon Minister’s vast experience in the financial arena, I would like to know whether the Minister would be able to translate the houses without, etc, into monetary terms.

What are we talking about?

How much money are we talking about?

We are talking about 2030.

How many years will it take to eradicate this backlog that you have just explained to us?

Thank you.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 12 of 177 The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: [Inaudible.]
... elucidated, Deputy Chairperson.

Our Medium-Term Expenditure Framework is very clear on the targets, and I have definitely highlighted those targets.

Obviously, from an oversight perspective, it would be important for to us to follow up on the execution of those targets, as outlined in our Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF.

However, what is also key here, as clearly cited in the MTSF, is the provision of resources to execute.
So, it is very important that, as we follow up, we also take that into consideration.

The targets are very clear here, however.

And this is definitely something that Members of Parliament will also have to follow up on and make sure that we stick to those targets, as outlined in our Medium-Term Expenditure Framework.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Is that a follow-up question?

Mr C HATTINGH: No, Deputy Chair, I asked a direct question, and the Minister did not respond.
I asked for an answer in monetary terms – that is, actually, rands and cents.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 13 of 177 The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I was worried about that part of your question.

Because you even say, with the Minister’s background of having been in finance ...

[Interjections.]

The minute we get to that, it then changes the whole question.
So, the principal question is about the infrastructure backlogs, and the Minister, I think, has done his best to respond to that question.

Can I protect him from being put on the spot to relate to a question that might not be relevant?

Hon Julius?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Oh, I didn’t ... Alright, fine, now that I have already called him, can I take you after him?

Is that a point of order, hon Julius?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Yes, Deputy Chairperson.


I almost forgot there is another point of order.

But I think it is not putting on the spot.

It is holding the Minister accountable.

The question was straightforward, about the monetary value.

The Minister didn’t answer him!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Julius, if you can refer to your Rules, they will explain to you, especially when 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 14 of 177 it comes to questions that need statistics, it’s very clear.
So, let’s not get into that.

Hon Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, what we do and say in this House forms the record of this House.

It will go into the Hansard for years to come.

The ruling is the Minister has responded.

The response may not be what the hon member was expecting, but the Minister has responded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Alright, I’ve made a ruling on that matter.

Hon Rayi?
Hon Rayi?

Mr M RAYI: Deputy Chair, my follow-up question is about whether there is any role played by the Presidential Infrastructure Co- ordinating Committee, PICC, with regard to assisting on the backlogs and ensuring the monitoring of the spending of the Mig.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, yes, indeed, there is a role that is played by said structure.
However, let me also indicate that this role is played to complement, among other things, initiatives like the Mig, the regional bulk infrastructure grant, and the municipal water infrastructure grant.

So, definitely, there is a collaborative effort within spheres but also within funding sources to address the infrastructure backlog that is facing our country.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 15 of 177 Mr M CHETTY: Hon Deputy Chair, hon Minister, National Treasury resorted to withholding the equitable share from certain councils that were in arrears to Eskom.

This was unconstitutional and led to these municipalities being placed under further financial constraints, which resulted in the delivery of basic services to our communities being sacrificed.

What measures, if any, has your department put in place to prevent this occurrence from happening again?
What measures, if any, has your department put in place to ensure that these failing municipalities comply and address their nonpayment to Eskom?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, as members are all aware, the incident that has been referred to led to the reallocation of the equitable share that was withheld from affected municipalities in the previous financial year.
However, equally important for members to note is the fact that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, working together with National Treasury and, of course, the Department of Energy, initiated a process of engaging affected municipalities where, in those meetings, the development of a repayment plan was prioritised.
In addition, the issue of addressing the real problems that are affecting those municipalities, or the 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 16 of 177 problems that led to those municipalities not sticking to the repayment arrangement originally made, were entertained.
As we speak, members are all aware that we haven’t heard of any potential action from Eskom on those municipalities because of this constant engagement that is currently taking place between the affected municipalities, under the leadership of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, working jointly with the Department of Energy.

The Department of Public Enterprises is also on board.

So, definitely, there is work that is being done with affected municipalities.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much.

That brings us to the end of Question 129.

NEW MEMBER (Announcement) The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Before we proceed to the next question, I have received a note from the Chief Whip of the Council, requesting me to acknowledge the hon member Makhosini Mishack Chabangu , who replaces the hon Mokoena; and then, to also acknowledge the presence of a special delegate from Gauteng, the hon Sarupen.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 17 of 177 I thought, in actual fact, someone would rise on a point that he must jump in the House as a form of welcome, but I can see the members are a bit stiff.

Or perhaps you should sing for us!

Anyway, you are very welcome in the House.

Disciplining of councillors 132.
Mr M Chetty (DA) asked the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs: (1) Whether, with reference to the unconstituted Jozini Municipal Council, he will discipline the councillors of a certain political party (name furnished) who (a) staged a walkout during the election of the mayor and (b) failed to attend the subsequent meeting called by the municipality; (2) whether there will be any intervention by his department in this regard; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO346E The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, the answer to the first part of the question is no, because, as you are all aware, the method for instituting discipline against public representatives, of course, is a matter assigned to political parties.

I must indicate that part (b) of the 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 18 of 177 question is also not applicable because of that particular provision.
On the issue of the question on the intervention, as members are all aware, the intervention is defined in the Constitution of our Republic.

It is the responsibility of the provincial executive council to deal with a municipality that has failed to execute its obligation.

I think that provision, section 139(1)(a) and (b), is a familiar one.
In this particular instance, I must indicate that the provincial Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, led by MEC Nomusa Dube-Ncube, has submitted the following information to the department.

The Jozini Municipal Council met, firstly, on 18 August to elect a Speaker.

However, the result was a tie, with 20 councillors for the ANC and 20 councillors for the IFP.
Before the presiding officer could determine the results ballot, the ANC- led component of the council, 20 councillors in this regard, requested a caucus, which was granted by the presiding officer.

These councillors did not return to the Chamber, which resulted in the meeting not forming a quorum and having to be adjourned.

I must indicate that, as the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, we immediately followed this up with the MEC to check on what was happening.
Indeed, the MEC was on the ground, establishing what was happening and striving to realise a 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 19 of 177 solution, working together with the collective of the public representatives in Jozini Local Municipality.

As a result, the meeting was subsequently held on 16 September, and all the office bearers were elected.

As we speak, we have an indication from the MEC’s office that the district municipality will also be constituted on Thursday, 22 September.
So, by 22 September, Jozini and the district will be constituted accordingly, as the last municipality in the country to do so.

Thank you very much.

Mr M CHETTY: Deputy Chair, I am glad the hon Minister made reference in his response to the hon MEC for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.

To enlighten you, the Jozini Local Municipality will only be constituted, not at the second instance, but at the third instance.

The first occasion was when the ANC did not return from their caucus.
On the second occasion, they failed to pitch up for the meeting.

It was only at the third instance.

However, as a follow-up question: Hon Minister, it is now public knowledge that, one month after the local government election and at the third attempt, the Jozini Municipal Council has finally been constituted.
Are you aware that a company linked to the husband of Nomusa Dube-Ncube, the very same hon MEC for KwaZulu-Natal that you say has her feet on the ground, was the beneficiary of a R33 million tender?

[Interjections.]

Deputy Chair, may I have some protection here?

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 20 of 177 The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order!

Order!

Order, hon members!

Order!

Mr M CHETTY: Thank you.


If you are aware, what measures have you put in place to ensure that practices of this nature do not occur?

If you were not aware, what measures will you put in place to ensure that the MECs do not abuse their positions for financial benefit?

In addition, do you have the will to implement the DA’s policy, which prevents public representatives from doing business with government?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I am not sure if this is a linked question to the main question.

However, it is very clear this question is not linked.

Without getting into the details of the submission, let me reassure the hon member that, as government, we have put in place various mechanisms and measures to combat fraud and corruption.

This is not something that should be looked at as a new revelation.
It’s not something that should be looked at as something that is happening because some people are perhaps leading in certain municipalities.

This is something that has been happening all along and we will continue to adhere to those provisions.

Thank you very much.


Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, Minister, let me start by saying South Africa does not have to worry about those who have squandered 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 21 of 177 money illegally in Jozini because the new mayor and his executive are already onto them.

It does not need to be the Minister at national level directing them on how to arrest people who are stealing money.

[Laughter.]

They do have powers to do so themselves.


Hon Minister, my follow-up question to you is: This municipality has to be operational for the next five years.

How is your department going to ensure that these walk-outs, if they continue to occur, do not destabilise the functioning and operations of the municipality and that people do get the benefit of the good service delivery that the IFP has promised them, on the ground?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, as to how municipalities and municipal councils are expected to function, that is prescribed in the Constitution.

Hon members will appreciate that municipal councils function independently from other spheres of government.

The only time a province comes into a municipality is when the municipality fails in realising its executive obligation as prescribed in the Constitution.
That is why, through the provision of section 139, we are able to determine that incremental process.

There is no Big Brother approach here.

The responsibility of making municipalities functional is the responsibility of the municipal councils, as constituted.

So, I think that is where it starts.


20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 22 of 177 I would encourage all political parties ... because with the experience that we have from the coalitions that were established as an outcome of the 2011 administration, it is very clear that, if we have these relationships that are not necessarily guided by clear governance models, we will continue to intervene in those municipalities, as guided by the Constitution.

Let’s get the basics right.


Of course, in terms of the national or provincial intervention, it will definitely not be an issue that we should be that concerned with.

Because it all starts at municipal council level, as provided for in the legislation.

Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, we want to congratulate whoever won the election in Jozini.

[Laughter.]

We will still know who won.


In addition, we want to hear the Minister’s comment in relation to the structures that provide checks and balances on how the municipality is run.

So, whatever the fears raised here by scaremongers that there would be walk-outs, the destabilising of municipalities by whoever it may be – and people assume we do know – we would like to hear his comment on that one.
How intact are such procedures, processes, and structures that provide the checks and balances and participation of people in the municipality?

In addition, for the record, we also congratulate the ANC leadership in the province.

On Friday, they went out in public and committed the ANC to co-operate in making sure that people in Jozini would 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 23 of 177 receive their service delivery requirements.

Therefore, we would like to hear from the Minister on the importance of ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order!

On a point of order, hon Nzimande: I thought that we had agreed, from the beginning, that there wouldn’t be any motions in the House.

[Interjections.]

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Deputy Chair, on a point of order: A member is allowed to make comments and ask questions.

This is what I have done.

I have made comments, and, in those comments, there is no format to congratulating.
However, it is still within the question and it requires of the Minister to comment and say something in terms of the party and their commitments and agreements to participate.

So, I think it is quite in order.

I don’t know who else is worried about that, but on the party’s commitment to structures that secure and put checks and balances on the running of municipalities, can the Minister comment?
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: Just as the Chief Whip was doing, I think we need to protect the hon Minister.

This is the same question which I asked and which the Minister has responded to.

It is being asked for the second time.

[Laughter.]

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 24 of 177 The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): It is not ... there are some other follow-up questions that had their own direction, in one way or another.

Hon Minister?
Hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, yes, the mechanisms to ensure checks and balances are in place.

[Interjections.]

Am I protected, Deputy Chair?

[Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Nzimande, can we protect the Minister, please?

[Interjections.]

Hon Minister?

Order!

Order, hon members!


The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: In our mechanisms, emphasis is placed at a provincial level where provincial departments are encouraged to work closely with municipalities.

On our side, as Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the relevant MECs report to us on the performance of municipalities in their respective provinces, from time to time.
This is standardised on a monthly basis, but it also occurs during our Minmec meetings.

Over and above that, through our Back to Basics programme, we have deployed what we term “crack teams” to make sure that, at a provincial level, the relevant provincial departments are duly supported.

In addition, municipalities that are having functionality problems are duly supported.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 25 of 177 I must also indicate to the House that, on top of that, during the recently held, successful, local government election, we established a team at national level in the joint operations centre.

Because of the outcome of the election results, we have decided not to disband that team until we are sure that all municipalities are properly constituted.

This is also to complement – remember, before the election, we had what we termed the transitional committees?
These were committees working to ensure that ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order, hon members!

Can you listen to the response, as provided by the Minister?

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, these were committees that were established to ensure that all municipalities that were newly established as a result of the outcome of the Municipal Demarcation Board decision are assisted.

Those committees are still running.


We are also supporting those committees.

So, hitherto, I think we have done our best to make sure that mechanisms are in place to ensure that municipalities are properly constituted.

Going forward, we will always be there to support municipalities, of course, working through their provinces, where there are problems.

Thank you very much.

Building sustainable institution of traditional leadership 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 26 of 177 128.
Mr J M Mthethwa (ANC) asked the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs: Whether his department is (a) fulfilling its objective of building a sustainable institution of traditional leadership and (b) resolving all outstanding disputes (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO342E The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Yes, indeed, Deputy Chair, the Department of Traditional Affairs – of course, this is one of the departments that fall under the Ministry of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – is doing everything in its power to build an institution of traditional leadership that is sustainable and will peacefully resolve all disputes.
The term of office of the Commission on Traditional Leadership Disputes and Claims was extended to 30 December 2017.

This means that, as of today, there are 253 cases remaining in Limpopo.

The commission inherited 1 244 disputes and claims from the previous Nhlapo Commission, as well as any disputes and claims lodged before 1 August 2010.

To date, the commission has finalised 991 disputes and claims.

This commission is tasked with the responsibilities of resolving disputes of traditional leaders.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 27 of 177 Furthermore, the department continues to develop the customary law of succession and genealogies of all traditional leaders.

In addition, the department is in the process of creating a chief directorate that will deal with disputes of traditional leaders after the commission’s term has ended.

The chief directorate will be assisted, of course, by the National House of Traditional Leaders in resolving disputes and claims.
With the current process, we are pleased that the commission will be able to finalise all claims and disputes of traditional leadership that are before it.

Thank you, Deputy Chair.

Mr J M MTHETHWA: Deputy Chair, I thank the Minister very much.

The institutions of traditional leaders, Minister, differ from province to province.

Is there any mechanism that will set up a uniformity of all traditional leaders’ institutions throughout the country?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, yes, indeed, I fully agree with the hon Mthethwa.

This is one outcome of the assessment that has been conducted.

As a result of that, we are at the point where we’re engaging extensively with the sector to make sure that we address these disparities and we obviously develop systems to standardise how the sector is being treated.
As you know, there’s a lot of history behind these disparities and we’re trying our level best to entertain these.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 28 of 177 As a result of our commitment to address this, I must indicate that on 21 and 24 November, there will be a national dialogue of traditional leaders, government, and other stakeholders.
We have already started build-up processes to make sure that, amongst other things, we address these disparities and we harmonise the sector; and of course, where possible, introduce some standards.

This is definitely something that is enjoying our attention.

Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.

Mr M RAYI: Deputy Chair, I think the response has partly addressed the follow-up question that I have, because last year, during the Provincial Week, we visited one of the palaces of kings in the Eastern Cape.
There was a complaint that traditional leaders are not treated equally with regard to the allocation of resources and budgets.

In addition, the state of the roads leading to these palaces is not good, especially with regard to the palace of Bumbane, Nqadu, Qawukeni, and Nyandeni.

So, partly, the Minister says they will be harmonising and addressing some of the disparities.

I don’t know if he, perhaps, has further comment on that matter?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): So, it’s not a follow-up question, necessarily?

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 29 of 177 Mr M RAYI: It is ...

[Inaudible.]

... if he can comment on that as well.

Perhaps he can comment on whether this harmonisation will also address the resources and the budgets.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Then, it now becomes a follow-up question.

Hon Minister?
Hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, the reality of the matter is that, albeit the proclamation was done by the President, as to how it’s enforced at the provincial level ...

I mean, that’s where we have major differences, because provinces approach this issue differently and they provide for the traditional leadership differently.
As a result, that’s why we argue that we will have to find a mechanism to standardise these provisions, because they cause a lot of dissatisfaction among the sector itself.

And that’s something we are working on.

Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chair, the hon Minister is affirming that the department is fulfilling the objective of building a sustainable institution of traditional leadership.

My follow-up question is on that first part of the response.
In 2009, hon Deputy Minister, the coalition of traditional leaders – the hon Nkosi here is part of that because it was a coalition of all amakhosi [kings], irrespective of political ideology – approached 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 30 of 177 government.

Government set up a committee under the leadership of the then Deputy President, who is, today, the President of the country.

All the line-function Ministries were part of that committee.

The coalition made presentations to the committee.


The committee, together with the coalition, agreed that there was a need for sections 7 and 17 of the Constitution to be amended in order to allow for blockage of the obliteration of the powers and functions of traditional leaders, in accordance with the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act.

Now, up to this day, Minister, that has not happened.

Yet, the Minister is saying the department is fulfilling its objective.
There’s a contradiction, hon Minister.

Can you explain this?

Because amakhosi [kings] have made pleas to your department.

Your department has not responded but you are saying you are responding positively.

It’s a contradiction.


The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, indeed, the Department of Traditional Affairs is responding in accordance with the provision of the Constitution which enjoins us to support and be of assistance as we promote customary practices and support the traditional leadership sector.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 31 of 177 The processes that the member is referring to are the very same processes that yielded the necessity to have some amendment introduced to what was previously the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act.

Currently, because of the mooted amendments, we’re looking forward to the inclusion of the Khoi and San as part of the traditional leadership sector, as one example.
Beyond that, there has been some thorough assessment done by the department to determine functionality of various traditional councils.

And of course, we hope that, as we move to the national dialogue of traditional leaders, we’ll have a full report from that particular assessment on the functionality of all traditional councils in the country.

The record of the matter is that our commitment to support traditional leaders is something that is definitely there.
We think that we still have a lot of work to do, working together with the sector itself, and that’s exactly what we’re doing now.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Ke lebogela tsibogo ya gago Tona le fa karaboya potso ya ga motl Khawula e iketse kwa thoko o sa mo fa karabo ya nnete eo a neng a go botsa yona.

[Minister, thank you for your response, even though the answer that you provided to the hon Khawula’s question was untrue and unrelated to the question.]
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 32 of 177 My question, hon Minister, is with regard to the D Accounts.

You know, in the North West province ... ... re na le merafe e e le gore e na le meepo ... [... we have communities that own the mines ...] ... where there were issues or queries regarding the beneficiation of those mines to the communities.

There was a D Account, that was opened by the department then, and the Premier before Thandi Modise, and Thandi Modise herself.
Up to now, Minister, those communities are still waiting for the response with regard to their monies from the department and the legislature itself.

So, I would like to know, from your side: Since you have been in the office, how far have you come on dealing with the issue of D Accounts?

Because they are the ones that are now at the key of the protest in the whole mining communities of the North West.
Ms L L ZWANE: Deputy Chair, I think we need to refer to the Chairperson of this Council as “the hon Thandi Modise”, not as ordinary “Thandi Modise”, as the member has actually done.

Ms T J MOKWELE: You like to do that.

I said “Premier”.

Premier.

It’s a position by itself, Premier.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 33 of 177 The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, I allowed you to continue to conclude your question.

Ms T J MOKWELE: You’re sustaining it?

Alright.


Ke ne ke batla fela gore ke itse gore Tona, mo ntlheng eo ya di D Accounts, re kopa o re thuse ka gonne merafe e tsogelane kgatlhanong, ga re kgone go fitlhelela madi a rona.

Ke a leboga.

(Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Minister, I just wanted to know, with regard to the D Accounts, we need help because communities are at each other’s throats.

We cannot access our monies.

Thank you.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister, I will allow you to respond if you so wish.

But let me allow you an opportunity then to ...

[Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, indeed, the D Account matter was brought to our attention.

As we speak, the matter is being investigated but I don’t think I’m privy to the details of that process.

However, it goes beyond the D Account.


It’s all about how issues of economic development in areas that are under the jurisdiction of traditional leadership are being entertained.

Because as you might 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 34 of 177 be following, there is a lot that is also happening in Limpopo, where the communities in those traditional jurisdictions feel that they are really being taken for granted by the mining houses, as an example.
Now, as part of the broader assessment that we’re currently seized with, working together with the Department of Mineral Resources, this is one area that we are looking at - the social labour plans - and how our communities in those areas are properly empowered by some of these operations.

So, it goes beyond the D Account issue and, indeed, there is a problem in this area.
Going forward, we really need to do our best to resolve the situation for the sake of the sustainability of those communities but also for the sake of the proper empowerment of our communities under the jurisdiction of traditional leadership.

Thank you.

Promise on municipal demarcations 141.


Ms N P Koni (EFF) asked the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs: Whether the law allows for municipal demarcations to be used for political expediency (details furnished); if not, what is 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 35 of 177 the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO362E The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, demarcation is the responsibility of the Municipal Demarcation Board, which, we all know, is an independent authority responsible for determination of municipal boundaries, and which, in terms of section 155(3)(b) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, is empowered to do such.
The board’s status as an independent authority is also provided for in the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act, Act 27 of 1998.

Section 3 of this Act provides that the board is a juristic person.

It is independent and must be impartial and must perform its function without fear, favour, or prejudice.
Furthermore, section 4 of the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act provides that the board must determine municipal boundaries in accordance with this Act and other appropriate legislation enacted in terms of Chapter 7 of the Constitution.

Therefore, the board is, indeed, an independent structure.

Thank you very much.


Mr M M CHABANGU: Deputy Chairperson, through you to the Minister: The follow-up question is: The people of Matatiele had been crying for far too long demanding that they be incorporated into KwaZulu- Natal.

You refused to listen, just as you refused to listen when you 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 36 of 177 were Mayor of Khutsong until people forced you, and just as you refused to listen to people in Limpopo regarding the Vuwani matter.
Is it not rank opportunism on your part to agree to the demands of the people of Matatiele just so you can get votes from the AIC to continue governing in the municipality that the ANC has lost?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister ... Before that, is that a point of order, or is it a follow-up?

You may proceed, hon Minister.


The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, let me, perhaps, remind the member of the history of the matter that he is referring to because I feel that, at the time, he was lost when he did the follow-up question.

He is trying to mix these things, and these are the two things that cannot come together.

I hope the member is a member of the AIC because his reasoning is along those lines.

If we are all aware ...

[Interjections.]


Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy Chair, why is the Minister saying that the member is the member of the AIC?

He can see that he is wearing the red regalia.

He cannot be a member of the AIC.

[Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): May I make a ruling on that question?

The ruling is as follows: Even the member, in his 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 37 of 177 follow-up question, made reference to the AIC.

Can you continue, hon Minister?


The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, this party, as you are all aware, is at the forefront of this Matatiele issue.

The fact of the matter is that this party was established in December 2005, in the Matatiele locality.

At the centre of its establishment was a protest against the inclusion of the area in the Eastern Cape rather than in KwaZulu-Natal.
Matatiele was moved from KwaZulu-Natal to the Eastern Cape in 2005, and I think, without necessarily getting into the details of that process, what is key here - or what each member should try to refrain from doing - is to assign this to an individual-led process.

Remember that this was a decision of this Parliament.

This Parliament had to definitely re-enact the provision of the 12th amendment, which the Constitutional Court ruled had not been validly enacted.
This provision transferred the Matatiele Local Municipality from the Kwazulu-Natal province to the Eastern Cape province.

So, it was not a one-man-show process.

It involved some aspects of participation.


However, on top of that, I must indicate that there is a process that we have undertaken that we will be entertaining beyond this recent local government election, or visiting those areas where 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 38 of 177 there has been some reservation, and to make sure that we engage appropriately with our people in affected areas without necessarily having to raise any unfounded expectations in that particular consultative process.
Because we have received letters coming from those areas.

So, definitely, as a responsible Ministry, we are definitely expected to do follow-ups on those letters.

That is exactly what we will be doing.

It is not only Matatiele.

There are other areas that we have received some letters on around issues of provincial boundaries.

I think it is important for the member to know that provincial boundary-making is a process that is not even dealt with by the Municipal Demarcation Board.
It is something that is dealt with at this level because it is a constitutional amendment aspect.

Thank you very much.

Mr W F FABER: Deputy Chair, through you to the Minister: Why does demarcation in municipalities change almost every election, when there is almost no movement of voters entering or exiting areas?

It is just in for the weekend and then out again after the weekend.

You should know, Minister, how that works.

Then people go to work again, and they just bring money home.
So, they are only in for the weekends.

This clearly shows that there is no question in the number of residents changing in these Wards like, for example, in Phokwane.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 39 of 177 Can you please tell us, Minister, why, for almost every election, there are changes, when there are not really people moving into or out of these areas?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act is very clear on what triggers redetermination or determination, and inter alia, one of the things that the Municipal Demarcation Board usually looks at, as guided by the Act, is the increase in the number of voters in the given area.

But also ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, can you allow the Minister to respond?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: ... this is one of the many reasons the Municipal Demarcation Board usually considers.

Because at the centre of this exercise, the Municipal Demarcation Board must ensure that if a Ward is constituted, that Ward will be viable and in a position to render services efficiently and effectively for our constituents in that Ward.

Now, the concern raised by the member is a very genuine concern.
Just recently, before the local government election, the Municipal Demarcation Board, working with other institutions, role-players, including the academia, and us, gathered together in an indaba that 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 40 of 177 was convened by the Municipal Demarcation Board.

And this is one of the things that was cited in that indaba.
One of the very striking findings that came out of that engagement is the fact that since this Act was brought to life some years ago - I think it was in 1998 - we have never looked at it and asked if we could review it.

Now, as a result of that engagement, the Act is going to be reviewed.

There was a clear call from that indaba that there was a need for us to review the Act.
Of course, as we review the Act, we will also have to address these issues of the frequency of the redetermination and determination, among other things.

So, definitely, there will be a process - that we think, is long overdue - of looking at the efficacy of the provisions of this particular Act.

Definitely, this is one of the areas that has been raised as a concern.

Thank you, Deputy Chair.


Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, I think we just need to make the comment that we all know about the politics behind the demarcations.

We all know about it.

I do not think we, in this House, can be fooled by someone saying that it is the Municipal Demarcation Board’s decision and there are more votes there, and so forth.
Minister, earlier, in Question 132, after the frivolous motion - or nonmotion - by the hon Nzimande, you referred to special support that Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs will give to ...

[Laughter.]

[Interjections.]

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 41 of 177 Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Deputy Chair, I take offence at this low mentally performing member.

He cannot attack me on his motion when he answers a question.

It is out of order.
It is out of order.

I think it is demeaning to my integrity and I would like you to rule on that.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I will sustain that point of order and also request members to refrain from referring to questions that have already been answered.

Let us rather focus on the question that we are dealing with right now.

Continue, hon member.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you, Deputy Chair.


I thought you would rule on the statement that the hon Nzimande also made - of my being “mentally low”.

He referred to me and I know that you heard it.

You know, these things fall so softly on you when it is the opposition.

They will never hear it ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can you continue with your follow-up question?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, it is fine.

Let me continue with my question.


The Minister referred earlier to that.

However, based on this question of the Municipal Demarcation Board’s giving extra support or special support to struggling municipalities after mergers, 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 42 of 177 Minister, I just want to know: What support are you providing to these municipalities that are now struggling in terms of service delivery protests, and so forth, and others that cannot cope due to mergers and special arrangements that must be made.
Could you start with an example at home, Minister?

You were in my home, Rand West.

Could you can start with that example?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, as was indicated earlier, the National Treasury went to the extent of establishing financial resources for these newly merged municipalities.
I think it is just too early for us to say these municipalities are not functional, because we have not even concluded the first month of their existence.

We are busy now with inducting and training councillors in those municipalities.

So, I am not sure what the member is referring to.

What is the basis of that?

Because the fact of the matter is that we have not picked up any major challenges in the cited municipality - the Rand West City Local Municipality - that he is referring to.
We think that all transitional arrangements and transitional provisions were definitely adhered to even before the election.

Therefore, I think it is just too early for a member to pick up on the ...

I know, it is quite comfortable and soothing to cite your constituency on this platform, because it shows that you are really doing something for your constituency.
But, truly speaking, let’s 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 43 of 177 not mislead the public by saying that this newly established municipality is not functional or is having problems.

We have not recorded any.

As I have said, we are monitoring performance of those municipalities and, where necessary, we intervene.

We will not hesitate to intervene to assist these municipalities.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, in the Minister’s response to the first follow-up question, the hon Minister took a short cut.

I just want to take the long walk for clarity purposes.

A decision to put Matatiele under the Eastern Cape was taken after a referendum was held in Matatiele by the legislature and parliament of KwaZulu-Natal.

In that referendum, the overwhelming majority of the people of Matatiele - more than 80% - voted in favour of KwaZulu-Natal.
The matter went to the legislature in KwaZulu-Natal.

The ANC in the legislature used its majority to vote against the wishes of the people of Matatiele.

They voted against the results of the referendum.

I am glad that the Minister is saying that demarcation is the responsibility of the Municipal Demarcation Board.
Now, what I want to know, hon Minister, is: If any political parties just used Matatiele as a bartering system and they promised each other, using Matatiele, would you say, then, that is null and void because it is 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 44 of 177 the Municipal Demarcation Board that must take a decision?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, the determination of provincial boundaries should not be confused with the redetermination or determination of Ward boundaries.

These are two different processes.

If you tamper with provincial boundaries, you will have to follow due constitutional process.

That constitutional process, obviously, will lead to that particular decision being enacted through a process of Parliament.
That is exactly what I was trying to explain.

I have never said that there was no referendum held in Matatiele or about the Matatiele situation.

I have never said that.

However, the fact of the matter is that, as I have correctly concluded, we have received correspondences from the constituency of Matatiele, and other constituencies, who are affected by provincial boundaries.
My predecessor, duly so, responded and indicated that, after the recently held local government election, we would be entertaining whatever was raised in those correspondences.

So, there is definitely no ducking and diving here.

We will have to provide solutions to some of these challenges facing our people.

Thank you very much.

Functioning of municipalities 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 45 of 177 112.
Mr W F Faber (DA) asked the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs: (1) What measures are in place to ensure the effective and efficient functioning of municipalities that are currently bankrupt; (2) whether members of the executive councils in the provinces report on the stagnant financial status of the municipalities; if not, why not; if so, how is his department addressing this issue; (3) what were the outcomes of an investigation into the inappropriate use of funds by departments in Limpopo?
CO322E The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, various methods are used to determine the financial health of municipalities.

These include year-on-year growth in debtors and creditors as a percentage of cash and investment, reliance on national and provincial government transfers, persistence on negative cash balance, and debtors as a percentage of owned revenue.
I must indicate that there are municipalities that do not have sufficient cash to pay their creditors, such as Eskom, water boards, 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 46 of 177 and others, in line with the requirements of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act.

In addition, some municipalities are still struggling to collect outstanding debt on municipal services.
When municipalities are struggling to pay their creditors due to persistence in negative cash balances, they are classified as being in financial distress or technically bankrupt.

Support initiatives are undertaken by various stakeholders, including national and provincial Departments of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Treasuries.

They develop measures to address the financial sustainability of these municipalities.
I must indicate that the national department and National Treasury have embarked on a simplified revenue plan replicable model project, in which we are currently targeting 30 municipalities.

This project will contribute to the reduction of consumer debt and the enhancement of municipalities’ revenue collection.
An intergovernmental task team, composed of the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, the Department of Public Enterprises, Eskom, the SA Local Government Association, Salga, and National Treasury and their provincial counterparts, was formed to conduct an in-depth analysis into the status of municipalities that cannot afford to pay Eskom as their biggest creditor.

This is something that I referred to earlier.


20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 47 of 177 Affordability analysis studies were undertaken, and repayment plans agreeable to both Eskom and the municipalities were approved.

Treasuries are also assisting the municipalities to develop and implement financial recovery plans which look at setting specific strategies for addressing the financial problems faced by some municipalities.
These include reducing unnecessary expenditure and increasing the collection of own revenue.

On the second part of the question, I must indicate that the answer there is yes, because the members of the executive councils, MECs, report to the Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs Minmec on the implementation of and progress on their Back to Basics programmes, which, among others, covers the financial status of municipalities as one of the five pillars of this important programme.
Various support packages for each of the identified municipalities are undertaken.

These include the monthly and quarterly debt review forums, assisting municipalities with the development of revenue enhancement strategies, and the review of municipal credit control and debt collection policies.

I must also indicate that the department does not have a mandate to oversee investigations regarding inappropriate use of funds by provincial departments.
According to section 106 of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, Act 32 of 2000, our department 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 48 of 177 oversees investigations into the inappropriate use of funds by municipalities.

Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

Mr W F FABER: Chair, as you know, the chief financial officers and municipal managers have to take the responsibility.

Usually, they then also get suspended and dismissed.
However, do they actually account after the actions of the investigations – for instance, like Lebekwane Municipality?

If they, then, take accountability, why do they get redeployed to other municipalities at the taxpayer’s cost?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, this has been a problem in the past, but I can assure the member that we have provided for a database where such people are blacklisted exactly to avoid your concern, which has also been a national concern.

This matter is being addressed.

Definitely, if you want statistical information, there are already those who have been blacklisted, and that information has been shared, accordingly, within the sector.
Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.

Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, I greet everybody with As-salaamu-alay-kum.

[Peace be with you.]

The issue here is that in a lot of municipalities that have become bankrupt in the years gone by, this bankruptcy has resulted largely from the inefficiencies or the corruption of not only officials but also of politicians.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 49 of 177 The question that we are asking, then, is: What has the Minister’s department done to investigate these municipalities to determine exactly the reasons for the bankruptcy setting in; and what is the hon Minister’s department going to do to ensure that the relevant people are brought to book?

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, remember that the Ministry does not have the capacity to investigate some of these serious allegations.
So, there is a lot of work that has been done by the Ministry to refer matters to other law enforcement agencies.

Here, I can cite the Special Investigating Unit and the Asset Forfeiture Unit.

The statistical information is present.

It was presented in our last report, and it can be provided to members on request.

However, there is work that is being done to deal with some of these cases.

We refer them to the appropriate establishment to deal with some of these serious and very, very unfortunate cases.
Thank you.

Mr M CHETTY: Hon Deputy Chair, hon Minister, your predecessor, the hon Minister Pravin Gordhan, said last year that one in three municipalities were dysfunctional, and he therefore introduced the Back to Basics programme.

He cited political instability, poor service delivery, and institutional mismanagement as factors that led to councils being dysfunctional.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 50 of 177 Can you inform this House: With regard to the numerous service delivery strikes and protest actions that we have experienced this year, has the Back to Basics programme been successful, or not; and what has been the progress or decline to date?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Indeed, Chair, there are a lot of good stories that are coming out of this newly introduced Back to Basics approach.
Just this morning, I hosted a delegation of businesspeople, of course, led by a minister from Switzerland.

As you know, Nestlé is a Swiss company, and they appreciated some of the interventions that we had to make through Back to Basics in the operations that are, of course, led by Nestlé.

So, this clearly shows that, among other things, we are making progress in some of the areas.
However, the fact of the matter is that the first-year assessment of Back to Basics clearly shows that the performance of municipalities is uneven.

That suggests that we can’t employ a blanket approach on matters.

If one municipality is doing well, we can’t say all municipalities are doing well.

Equally, if one municipality is not doing well, we can’t say all of them are not doing well.

Also, the problems vary from one municipality to the other.
So, as we intervene, we will have to be very realistic and develop tailor- made interventions for specific municipalities.

Indeed, we can also 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 51 of 177 provide evidence to show some of the difference that we have made in other municipalities.

Of course, there are municipalities where there are persistent problems.
There, we are still striving together and working with provinces and other role-players, because Back to Basics is a collaborative effort to address the problems encountered by some of these municipalities.

Our work continues in those municipalities.

Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, referring to the blacklisting of officials, I would like to know: How will this blacklist work?

Will it be published in the Government Gazette?

How will it be used?


Because it is not really a blacklist if it is in the Minister’s drawer somewhere.

I would also like to know: How far ... what processes will be involved?

I believe that there may be some, even members here, that should be on that list.

Thank you.

[Laughter.]

[Applause.]

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chair, the hon member seems to have some information!

An HON MEMBER: I’m telling you!


The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Perhaps he should furnish us with the details of those members that he thinks were not properly blacklisted.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 52 of 177 The fact of the matter is that this is a new initiative and, among other things, we are looking at the enforceability aspect of it because it is very important that if we blacklist, that should be binding, so that we don’t have people blacklisted who then continue to gain benefits from the public sector.

So, this is something that will definitely strengthen as we move forward.

Thank you very much.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Is there a point of order?

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chairperson, with your permission, may I rise on a point of privilege, please?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Yes.

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chairperson, on many occasions, the speaker who has spoken just now on behalf of the DA on a follow-up question has referred to me as skelm [crooked].

He has made reference to me as a wanted criminal.


And just today, he made reference to some of the people in the House who should be blacklisted.

I want to place it on record in this Council that the hon Hattingh is grossly misinformed.

I am not the George Mthimunye he has made reference to, who was once a municipal manager in Klerksdorp.

[Laughter.]

I am a different George Mthimunye!

[Laughter.]

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 53 of 177 [Interjections.]


He must get his facts correct and stop misleading the public!

Thank you, Chair.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): That is a very interesting one, precisely because of what has been said previously.

I don’t have the benefit of that, regarding the criminals, or whatever.
If it is a statement that was made in the Council and it is on record in the Council, will I therefore be allowed an opportunity to familiarise myself with what was said in the Council and make a proper ruling on that matter?

Please.

Because I don’t know if these are silent statements that are being echoed there, far away from me, and if I am able to really make a ruling on them.

Hon Nzimande, is that point of order?

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Yes, Chair.

I rise on the Rule on relevance.


I am noticing that we have participated in this question, asking follow- up questions that are not core to the main question.

The main question refers to the current bankrupt municipalities, and the follow-up questions are all over the place – from the disciplining of members to transferring, deploying, and all sorts of things.

They are not talking about the current bankrupt municipalities.
So, to me, from the presiding point of view – the presidium – it is important that we are relevant to the course.

Otherwise, some of us 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 54 of 177 find it out of order.

Also, there is, by law, no municipality that has been declared bankrupt.

That is a point of irrelevance.

There might be nonviable municipalities versus viable municipalities.

However, in the country, as far as I know - it is a misleading question - it is irrelevant.
Therefore, the follow-up questions and clarifications on it are also irrelevant.

I would like the presidium to go and look at it so that what comes to the Council is proper and relevant.

Otherwise, we are running the risk of misleading the public and engaging on matters that we are not supposed to engage on, legally.

Thank you.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can I respond to that?

[Interjections.]

Hon Faber, can I respond to that?


It is relevant because the Rules that govern Question sessions point us to the fact that any follow-up question that is made must be relevant to the principal question.

I made that ruling, but because you are politicians, you have one way or another of bringing other things up.

In protecting the Minister, I would obviously make reference ... or perhaps check with him if he is willing to respond to a political statement or a political question that is being put.
Because, yes, it is true.

Some other follow-up questions are political statements more than really speaking to the principal question that has been 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 55 of 177 put to the Council or the Minister.

So, it is an appeal, once more, to go back and be relevant to the principal question, as put by a member.
Mr W F FABER: Deputy Chairperson, I hear what you say but to be quite honest, you are the Deputy Chairperson of the Council, not the member that was standing up giving us a whole story about how it works.

So, that is my first comment.

And then, the issue is this.

If we ask relevant questions, we want relevant answers, but we are not getting the answers.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Faber, I thought I was protecting even you in my earlier ruling, saying that we should be focused.
Let us be focused.

We will be tempted, like I said, because we are politicians.

This is a gathering of politicians, so there will be that temptation to make a politically sweeping statement, here and there.

I cannot also be found to be so rigid as to not allow members to make such statements, but the appeal is that we be relevant to the principal question.

Hon Vawda, are you alright now?

Alright, that then concludes Question 112.


Duties & functions of PRs & Ward councillors 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 56 of 177 134.

Mr L B Gaehler (UDM) asked the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs: Whether his department has specific duties and functions for (a) Ward councillors and (b) party representatives; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details in each case?
CO354E The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, the specific duties and functions of both Ward and proportional representation councillors are provided for, among others, in the following pieces of legislation: the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, and the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act.
There are also many other guidelines and policies that councillors must adhere to and implement as part of their daily responsibilities of being a public representative.
As you are all aware, their responsibilities include helping communities in explaining what their needs are; developing and supporting community structures; facilitating public participation in government development projects; identifying service blockages in the community; and finding solutions to identified needs and blockages by meeting with national, provincial, and local government structures.

That is adequately provided for in our Back to Basics approach.

So, it is a collaborative approach.


20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 57 of 177 I must indicate that, as we speak, the department, in collaboration with the SA Local Government Association, Salga, National Treasury, the Local Government Sector Education and Training Authority, LGSeta, and the Department of Public Service and Administration, is rolling out an induction programme for all newly elected councillors.
The programme is, in the main, intended to assist councillors to understand their roles and responsibilities as members of municipal councils.

I thank you.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Deputy Chair, in fact, these questions got mixed up by the Questions Office.

This one was supposed to be a Question for Written Reply, but I have already spoken to the Chief Whip about it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I couldn’t follow the last part of ... Mr L B GAEHLER: I said the questions were mixed up by the Questions Office.

This one was a Question for Written Reply.

The other one, which was a Question for Oral Reply, is not in.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Oh.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Minister, I am not happy with your answer.

I want a specific answer.

What are the duties?

The question is very clear: What are the duties?


The reason for asking this question is that where the governing party is in control or is in charge of a 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 58 of 177 council, the duties of proportional representation councillors are not given to them.

Their functions are not given.

We know about your workshops, etc, but your leadership in the councils where you are in charge do not want the proportional representation councillors to do their duties.
Therefore, the taxpayers’ money paid to them make of them what we call “ATM councillors”, who are not doing their duties because of your management in councils.

So, I want a specific answer from you as the Minister.

What are the duties of the proportional representation councillors?

It’s a simple question.

Thank you.

[Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon member.

Just take it easy.

[Laughter.]


The reality of the matter here, Deputy Chair, is that proportional representation councillors, like any public representatives elected to serve in a municipal council, are equally entitled to serve in various committees of a municipal council.

That is what is happening.

Now, I am not sure what the member is referring to when he emphasised this thing of ...
I mean, 15 years in our democratic local government system ... referring to the duties of a proportional representation councillor.

The fact of the matter is that proportional representation councillors also participate in various committees of a municipal 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 59 of 177 council.

However, those proportional representation councillors can also serve as mayors or Speakers.

It all depends on how the outcome of the constitution of a given municipal council is determined.
So, truly speaking, I don’t get the question.

I really don’t get the question.

Perhaps the member wants to get to certain specifics, and I would appreciate it if the member could ... even ...

I think he was right by saying the question should have been referred for a written response.

I think he can still do a follow-up for a written response so that we can give him more explanation on the functions of proportional representation councillors.
If he does mind, I think one is ready to take him for tea so that we can explain some of these things quite succinctly because I do not understand exactly what his problem is.

Thank you very much.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Ikhona ingxaki ekhoyo.

[There is a problem.]

Chairperson, the Minister is here to answer questions.

Akawuphenduli lo mbuzo ndiwubuzayo: Umsebenzi kaCeba oHlonyelweyo yintoni na?

[He has not answered the question I have asked: What are the duties of a proportional representation councillor?]
Are they allowed to satisfy things, and so forth?

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 60 of 177 Kutheni ungangeni apha enyanisweni?

Phendula umbuzo lo wokuba benza ntoni na aba ceba bahlonyelweyo.

Uyeke ukube utshona ngapha nangapha.

[Kwahlekwa.]

(Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Why do you skirt around the truth?

Just answer the question regarding what proportional representation councillors do.

And stop ducking and diving.

[Laughter.]]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Alright, hon members, can I take the opportunity to protect the Minister?

Because a follow-up question was made.

There is even a suggestion that the question can still be responded to in writing and after further engagement, but to allow a member to ask two follow-up questions now would be against the Rules.
Mr C HATTINGH: Deputy Chair, I would like to hear the Minister’s approach and the department’s situation on - let’s call it the deployment of municipal councillors by mayors, by Speakers, and even by the so-called single Whips to specific Wards; and then also, to do oversight at, for instance, schools - which is not a local government competency.

What is going on there?

Where do they get the right to do so and to even threaten councillors if they do not oblige?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, hon Hattingh, a municipal councillor is what one could term 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 61 of 177 the first line of defence of a government.

Our people do not know that technical difference you are referring to.

When they look at a councillor, either a proportional representation or Ward councillor, they see the government.
That is why we are insisting that even public representatives should participate in community-based structures like the community police forums, CPFs, school governing bodies, and many others, because these are the structures that assist the municipal council and the Ward committee in that given area to do its work of taking the needs of any given community to the relevant sector department, in the spirit of intergovernmental relations.

We do not expect that to be abused, no.


It is not like when you are there as a councillor that all of a sudden, you must employ the so- called Big Brother approach.

No.

You are there as a leader to guide, but also to listen and assist those community-based structures as they strive to improve the lives of our people in that given Ward or in that given constituency.

That is what is encouraged.

I do not think we should entertain the negative side of it.
Our focus should be on how to use public representatives to enhance aspects of public participation and the efficiency and effectiveness of community-based structures.

We should not discourage councillors from participating in such structures.

I think that is very important because those structures are a source of information.
These are the very same structures that we expect will participate 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 62 of 177 in Ward committees, as sectors, and in our development agenda, as driven by the integrated development plans, IDPs, of given municipalities.

So, it is very important for councillors to lead and participate in some of those structures.

Thank you.

Mr M CHETTY: Hon Deputy Chair, hon Minister, firstly, let me say that our councillors are not the first line of defence.
They are the first line of accountability.

However, I am sure of the fact that by the way you have also been attacking your former predecessor, you are in the military veteran tone.

[Interjections.]

So, hon Minister, you answered a question earlier on traditional leadership.

Currently, the roles of traditional leaders in councils are still not clearly defined.

In some areas, Ward ...

[Interjections.]

... Can I get protection, Deputy Chair?

[Interjections.]

Only certain people get protection.


I am from KwaZulu, as is the hon Nzimande.

I would like some protection.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You are protected.

Mr M CHETTY: Thank you.

Let me start again.

Hon Minister, earlier, you answered a question on traditional leadership.

Currently, the roles of traditional leaders in councils are still not clearly defined.
In some areas, Ward councillors and 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 63 of 177 traditional leaders who are from different political allegiances are in conflict with and do not complement one another.

Issues around who is responsible for that particular Ward are of concern.

Is it the democratically elected Ward councillor or the traditional leader of the area?

Does your department have specific duties and functions for the traditional leaders in council, and what are the relevant details?
If not, when will the department have these implemented?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: [Inaudible.]

... much of a core question, but I think it is very relevant in the sense that it deals with the relationship between councillor and one of the key role-players, traditional leader, in a given municipality.
The fact of the matter is that it is true, but still, let us not employ a blanket approach because it is not in all municipalities where this arrangement is not working.

It is working very well in some municipalities, and we are learning from those municipalities to take the best practices to municipalities that are having problems.

For the first time in the history of the councillor induction programme, we have included a chapter on how traditional leaders should work with municipal councillors.
However, I must tell you it is not a straightforward process, and the engagements are continuing.

We think, working together with the relevant, affected 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 64 of 177 traditional leaders and with the National House of Traditional Leaders, and other role-players, this is an area that we should address.

It is also cited as an agenda item for our upcoming dialogue with traditional leaders.

It is a fact.
It is a fact.

There are relationship problems in some municipalities, but there are best practices that are coming out in other municipalities on how traditional leaders relate to municipal councils.

This is something that will continue to enjoy our focus, going forward.

Thank you very much.


Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, what we have noticed recently is that, after the governing party lost some of the larger metropoles, we heard sentiment coming out of Luthuli House that the present proportional representation system was not working for democracy at local government level.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Is that a point of order?

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Mr M T MHLANGA: Deputy Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: To the hon member, there is nothing legislated in that regard.

[Interjections.]

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 65 of 177 The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Take your seat, hon Vawda.

Let me just take ...

[Interjections.]

Hon member, can I listen to the point of order?

Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, our country’s Constitution is clear on the terms of the proportional representation system.
There is no regulation that states we must amend the proportional representation method.

There is nothing like that in the legislation.

So, in that order, Chair ...

[Interjections.]

No, don’t bring Luthuli House here!

We are dealing with legislative matters here.

[Interjections.]

Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Alright, hon members, can I just rule on the point, as raised?

Firstly, we dealt with the issues of relevance, earlier on.
And I find your question not to be relevant to the principal question.

[Interjections.]

Can I just respond to ...

[Interjections.]

...

Yes, I will recognise you.

There is no problem.

I am just appealing to the hon Vawda ...

[Interjections.]

... hon members ...

I am appealing to you, hon Vawda, to focus your follow- up question on the principal question.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 66 of 177 Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, kgangkgolo ke gore motl Vawda ga a fetsa go botsa potso.
[Chairperson, the issue is that the hon Vawda did not finish his question.]

So, you can’t rule on the unfinished sentence.

You don’t know what his statement to the question will be.

So, allow the member to voice his statement and thereafter ask a question.

It is then that you can make a ruling.

You don’t know what his statement is when he mentions Luthuli House.

And it is the truth that you want to amend a section in the Local Government: Municipal Electoral Act.
Allow him to speak, and then you make your ruling.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Fine.

Unfortunately, I will just live up to my responsibilities, which are to decide on matters that I have to decide on.

I have protected the hon Vawda and I am requesting him to continue with his follow-up question but to be relevant to the principal question.

Can you proceed with your question, hon member?

Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Deputy Chair, thank you very much, indeed, for your protection, as well.
The question, then, to the hon Minister will be very simple: Does the hon Minister agree with the present proportional representation system at local government level?

If he does not agree, then he should explain to us what alternatives he has in mind.

And if he does agree that the system is still relevant, 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 67 of 177 then has he reprimanded the relevant people who are indicating otherwise from Luthuli House?

Thank you.

[Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You would realise, hon Vawda, that you are now asking a totally new question.

[Interjections.]

Now, you seek an opinion of the Minister, whereas the Minister is meant to respond to the roles of proportional representation councillors, which is the principal question, as posed by the hon Gaehler.

However, hon Minister, if you want to engage with that sweeping political statement, this is the House in which to do so.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, the member’s poacher is a reflection of the preoccupation with Luthuli House.

If I remember, his association with Luthuli House is very common.

Perhaps I should facilitate the process of reintroducing you to Luthuli House once more.

However, let us not forget our responsibilities as public representatives ...

[Interjections.]

Ms T MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]

[Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mokwele, you are out of order.

Hon Mokwele, you are out of order, my dear.

Please don’t do that.

Continue, hon Minister.


20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 68 of 177 The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Albeit the question is not direct to the core question, let me clarify it to the member that if there is any mooted legislative change, let’s remember that that is your responsibility, as Members of Parliament.

So, if you want to effect or propose some changes, here is the battlefield.

Don’t throw it at me.

[Interjections.]


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mokwele!

Take your seat, hon Minister.

Take your seat, hon Mokwele.

Hon members, I think it is a given that our primary constitutional responsibility, as Members of Parliament, is to pass legislation.

And anyway, if there is an amendment to any piece of legislation, it’s going to come to this House.

We will debate it; we will agree, or disagree, with the amendment, and all that.
But to shout at the Minister will not help the process, because our opportunity will come if there is such an amendment being proposed, in any case.

So, I am just appealing to the hon Mokwele to stop interjecting directly with the Minister and shouting the Minister down.

Please don’t do that.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy Chair, it is a fact that the ANC has made a point in terms of amending the legislation.

It’s a fact.
It’s a fact.

So, we can’t be sitting here and ignoring the fact that the ANC did mention publicly, through the Deputy Speaker of the National Assembly and on 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 69 of 177 national media, that they want to amend the legislation.

It’s a fact.

So, the Minister cannot come here and tell us that if we want to do one, two, three ... it’s a fact that you have seen that this thing of the proportional representation system is no longer working for the ANC.

You need to review it.


It’s a fact.

It will come to us, and we will discuss it.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mokwele, can you take your seat, please?

Hon Minister, may I direct you not to respond to any political statement that was made anywhere.

Don’t respond to that.

Rather respond to issues that are directed to your portfolio.

Can you please do that?

What is your point of order, hon Julius?


Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, remember that if you make a ruling, it has bearing on the Rules, like the Chief Whip said earlier.

In other words, no Minister will be allowed to respond to a political statement, whether it is from the ANC or any other party.

Do you agree with that?

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Julius, I said before that this is a political platform for us to debate political matters.
The Minister is required to respond to a statement that was made by Luthuli House and the Minister responds to questions directed to his department that have been put to him by this House.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 70 of 177 Can we just protect the Minister to focus on what we have requested him to do, which is to respond to a question that asks: What is it that his department is doing in defining and assisting proportional representation councillors?
Hon members, I will not allow any other further engagement on this matter and will not put the Minister at a point where he must now respond to things he did not say.

At least, if he had made the statement out there and then come to the House, that question would have been relevant, to say that he had said it.

It would have been relevant.

However, if something has been said by someone else there, you can’t.

[Interjections.]

Can I recognise the hon Labuschagne?


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: I just want to refer to a few Rules here.

A few rulings have been made today in this Council and in every sitting, we are going along this line.

We have a Rule, Rule 30, which states there is freedom of speech in this House.

Another Rule states that the Cabinet and the executive committee are accountable to this House.
So, when members do ask questions and the Minister says that councillors have oversight on schools – which is clearly a Schedule 4 and not the mandate of the council – he then makes a political statement and says that he is allowing those councillors to take responsibility for something that 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 71 of 177 is not their responsibility, except for the accounts on a municipal level.
So, when we, then, raise questions on the political statements that the Minister makes, we cannot raise these questions.

How fair is that?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, I was even going to appreciate the fact that you brought us back to what we are supposed to be doing - that freedom of speech relevant to the department and relevant to the work and the principal question that has been put.
That is exactly what I am cautioning members against, by asking if we can allow the Minister to respond to matters that have been put to him.

I am not saying the Minister should not respond to questions that have been put to him that are relevant to his department.

[Interjections.]

Hon Mokwele, can you please proceed?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Alright, thank you very much, Deputy Chair.

The issue of political statements comes from the hon Minister there.
Because in his response, he said to the hon Vawda that he is going to introduce him to Luthuli House.

That, on its own, is a political statement.

It’s a political statement.

So, when we engage him on what he said, don’t protect him.

Allow us to speak to him and he must respond to whatever question we pose to him.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 72 of 177 It’s a fact that the National Assembly’s Deputy Speaker announced publicly about the matter on the table.
That Deputy Speaker and that hon Minister are accountable to the National Assembly.

He is also accountable to this House.

He is also a member of a political party.

That was the decision was taken by the political party.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Alright.

Can I allow the Minister to respond to the question, as put to him, and the follow-up question, as read by ...

[Interjections.]

... what is the point of privilege, hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Speaker, there is a question before the House.

Can the House limit itself to the question at hand?

Yes, what is being said here may be relevant in some other debates, but let’s focus on the question at hand.

Thank you, Deputy Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much.

Let me allow the Deputy Minister to respond to the follow-up questions, as put to him.

[Interjections.]

On what point are you rising, hon Gaehler?


Mr L B GAEHLER: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: I ask you to be fair.

The Minister’s reply to me was a political statement.

He said he wants to take me out for tea.

Why does he want to take me out for tea?

Thank you.

[Laughter.]

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 73 of 177 The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Alright, I think that is a matter that can be sorted out somewhere else.

[Laughter.]
[Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, previously, when I worked with the hon member in the finance committee, I used to take him, as an elderly person, to tea.

[Laughter.]

So, I am not sure why it is now a problem to continue engaging on some of these matters with an elderly person over tea.

Deputy Chairperson, I think I have responded to all the questions posed to me.
I just wanted to clarify the mooted changes on legislation, irrespective of their origin.

I was given the advice that it is a process that should be championed here.

That was my advice.

So, members should not refer it to the Ministry, as if it is the Ministry’s responsibility to effect the legislative changes.

It is a parliamentary process and I think they should definitely entertain it at that level.
On the issue of participation in school governing bodies and community policing forums, CPFs, I have said quite clearly that we are not necessarily saying councillors must usurp their responsible sectors, but they must co-operate in the spirit of intergovernmental relationship.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order, hon members!
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 74 of 177 The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: They must co-operate and support those structures because those structures are very important for the stabilisation of their local constituencies.

So, it is important that there must be collaboration between public representatives and community-based structures.

That one is very critical.


I am not saying public representatives should take over the legislative responsibilities of other sectors all of a sudden.

No, it must be done within the spirit of the intergovernmental relationship.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much, hon Minister.

Hon Mokwele, we still have an outstanding issue.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, I know.


However, Deputy Chair, with due respect, I am requesting you not to always call me by name, citing me as if I am the only person who is causing a disruption in this House.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Oh, you are aware?

Ms T J MOKWELE: You must also call the hon George and the hon Nthebe by their names, please.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 75 of 177 The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): So, you are aware that you are causing a disruption?

Ms T J MOKWELE: They are making a noise and you are saying “hon members”, but if it was me, you would say, “Hon Mokwele, you are making a noise.” Please.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, I am sure the reason I keep on referring to you by name is because of that outstanding matter that is on record in this House.

[Laughter.]

[Interjections.]

Yes.

It was raised by the hon Khawula.

I can still remember, and there was unanimous agreement in this House.

[Interjections.]

Alright.

Fine.

Hon members, that concludes questions to the hon Minister van Rooyen.
I will, then, proceed to the Minister for the Public Service and Administration.

Personal development programmes 140.
Mr M Khawula (IFP) asked the Minister of Public Service and Administration: (1) Whether there are any personal development programmes that are aimed at (a) re-skilling and/or (b) upgrading employees on the job in line with Strategic Outcome 2 of his 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 76 of 177 department; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details; (2) whether these programmes cut across all (a) departments, (b) fields and (c) careers in the (i) service and (ii) government-funded employments; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO361E The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Chair, in consultation with their respective supervisors, all employees must submit a personal development plan, PDP, with their respective performance agreements.

That’s the first answer.

The PDP is aimed at addressing the identified development gaps through reskilling or capacity-development programmes.
The upgrading of employees’ skills and competencies through training programmes, on-the-job mentoring, and peer support is an ongoing exercise.

As for the second part of the section, yes, these interventions cut across all departments within the Public Service.

They are implemented in terms of the Public Service Regulations, and other prescripts, issued by my department.
For example, I have released a directive to ensure that senior managers attend compulsory capacity- development programmes over a mandatory period of 18 days in a three-year cycle.

Please note that the training interventions identified in the PDP and compulsory training programmes for senior 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 77 of 177 managers are funded through departmental budgets.

Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

Mr M KHAWULA: The concern here, Deputy Chair and hon Minister, is the loss to government.
Government is losing a lot of skills and personnel, especially to the private sector, perhaps because of a lack of proper retention skills in government.
For example, in the private sector, especially for a number of professions, when an employee enrols on the job, the programme is funded by the employer, whereas, in government, for most professions ... for example, in teaching, when I am a teacher, I get a bursary when I am still studying towards teaching, but on the job, when I want to upskill myself, there are no incentives in government that are funded by a government to help those who want to go on with their studies.
That was the gist of the question, because it is intended in the private sector as a retention strategy.

Why is the same not happening in government so that we can retain the much-required skills?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Chair, well, I take that to be a suggestion.

It’s not a question.

Basically, the hon member is suggesting that we need to develop incentives to retain people within the Public Service.
Of course, we do have some incentives for people to stay in the Public Service, but not the same instrument that he is suggesting.

The Public 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 78 of 177 Service pays fairly well and the bulk of our budget - 10% of it - goes to the payment of public servants.

We are introducing schemes, like the new housing scheme we have, to incentivise public servants.
We are doing that in collaboration with the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, and also with the banking system, so that we can make sure that those who do not qualify, for instance, for RDP houses, are able to access accommodation.

It’s just one example of the things we do.

I think the member is suggesting that we need to give further scholarships.

But if you apply to the sector education and training authorities, Setas, you will get some scholarships if you qualify.
So, basically, it’s a suggestion and we will have a look at it.

Thank you.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I would like to know - and this is something that we come across over a wide spectrum: What is the Minister’s view, the department’s view, on the deployment - let’s call it “deployment”, as the Minister will understand - of unqualified or underqualified officials to managerial positions?

And then, what corrective measures or disciplinary actions are being taken in cases such as this?

Thank you.
Thank you.

[Interjections.]

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 79 of 177 The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Alright, Deputy Chair, there are performance agreements that are signed between the executive authorities and heads of department.

[Interjections.]

Mr C HATTINGH: Do not converse loudly while another member is speaking.

This to the member behind me, please.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr J R Tau): Yes, she agrees.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: So, if a particular employee does not live up to the performance agreement, corrective measures are taken.

We either train the particular employee using the National School of Governance and its associate institutions, like other academic institutions, to try to upgrade the skills, or if the person is not trainable, obviously, at some point, we are going to have to get rid of that person because they can’t deliver the necessary service.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr J R Tau): Thank you very much.

Is there any other follow-up question?

Hon Rayi, I am sorry!

Mr M RAYI: Yes, you had noted me earlier, hon Deputy Chair.

My question is similar to the hon Khawula’s one, but mine is slightly different in that I know for a fact that departments are also paying for the upskilling of employees.
So, therefore, my question would be linked to the skills development of employees: Is there a retention 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 80 of 177 strategy in place to guard against what he was saying - that employees who are trained get posts in the private sector, in particular?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Chair, the only way you can guarantee retention is when you provide and give better working conditions.
Again, I have mentioned that the salaries we give to civil servants are fairly competitive.

So, I do not see how we would then retain people, because you have to have a career plan for a particular employee.

So, as they reach a certain level of development, they can be promoted as and when the posts become available.

So, there are three elements basically: a good salary, good working conditions, and of course, a career path.

That’s the plan.

Single Public Service 123.


Mr J M Mthethwa (ANC) asked the Minister of Public Service and Administration: Whether any measures are in place to establish a single Public Service; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO337E The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Chairperson, the conceptual debate on the single Public Service has 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 81 of 177 culminated with the signing into law of the Public Administration Management Act, Act 11 of 2014.
The Public Administration Management Act establishes a uniform system of public administration in all three spheres of government by promoting and further entrenching the values of and principles governing the public administration in section 195(1) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.

Section 20 of the Public Administration Management Act allows the President to determine effective dates for the different provisions, thus allowing for a staggered approach in operationalising the Act.
The Department of Public Service and Administration has commenced work on the drafting of regulations under the Public Administration Management Act of 2014 and has gazetted the first set of draft resolutions for public comment.

The first set of draft regulations focuses on sections 8 and 9 of the main Act, the Public Service Act.

Thank you very much.

Mr J M MTHETHWA: Chairperson, hon Minister, thank you very much.

Hon Minister, I am satisfied with your reply.

I have no follow-up question.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much.

I don’t see any hands.

Hon Khawula, is that an afterthought?

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 82 of 177 Mr M KHAWULA: No, Chairperson, I was waiting for the hon Mthethwa to take his rightful place so that I could follow him.

He has just told us that he doesn’t have a follow-up question, so it’s not an afterthought.

May I shoot?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Yes.

Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you.


Hon Minister, are the regulations that you are talking about going to regulate on this practice of staggering salaries, especially with the two spheres of government - the national and the provincial - compared to the other, local sphere?

In local government, you will find a very small municipality with no tax base at all employing a municipal manager who is earning more than a director-general of a government department.
This is a major cause for concern in this issue of regulating the field.

Is that going to be addressed?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Chair, the current regulations which are being consulted on focus mainly on preventing public servants from doing business with the state.

So, it is an anticorruption measure.

If we move to the next phase, those are the sorts of things that we would have to look at over a period of time.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr M RAYI: Deputy Chairperson, I just want to find out from the Minister: What does a single Public Service mean for collective 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 83 of 177 bargaining?

Currently, you have collective bargaining for the public administration and you also have collective bargaining for other spheres, such as local government, which is separate from the national or provincial collective bargaining.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Well, Deputy Chair, as we move towards the creation of a single Public Service in the country, which is not the reality at the moment, part of the issue would be to regularise those differences that the member is pointing out.

It is also important for us to understand that underlying the drive towards a single Public Service is the ability of the government to move personnel from one sphere to another.
It is also important to make sure that, again, to relate to the earlier question, we standardise the salaries and benefits for all the spheres of government.

So, currently, we have different chambers of negotiation, because the spheres are still separate.

However, we are moving in that direction.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, I just wanted to know: On this proposed legislation, was there an impact study done?
If so, what does it show in terms of how many public servants are actually doing business with government now?

Because if they have now been outed, they might leave the Public Service and go into their own business, or they may opt to stay in the Public Service.

So, was there an 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 84 of 177 impact study done, and what does it show?

How many people are there, and what could the likely impact of this be on the Public Service?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Well, Deputy Chair, an impact study was not done.

However, what we have done is this.

From the beginning of August 2016, if there are public servants who are doing business with government, they will be allowed to conclude their transactions within six months.

Beyond that point, they have got to leave the Public Service.

Suspended employees 118.


Mr J W W Julius (DA) asked the Minister of Public Service and Administration: (a) How many employees are currently on suspension for more than 60 days in all government departments and (b) what is the total cost of the salaries of these employees?

CO329E The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, based on the reports received from provinces and national departments, there are 295 employees on suspension.
The total cost of the salaries of these employees is more than R33 million.

The breakdown of each department and province is annexed to this question.

So, we will make it available to members if they so wish.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 85 of 177 This information is about all the employees on suspension and not only those on suspension for periods longer than 60 days.

Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.


Prepared Reply follows: MINISTRY: PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES QUESTION FOR ORAL REPLY QUESTION NO.

: 118.

Mr J W W Julius (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of Public Service and Administration: (a) How many employees are currently on suspension for more than 60 days in all government departments and (b) what is the total cost to the salary of these employees?
CO329E 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 86 of 177 REPLY Based on the reports received from provinces and national departments, there are (a) 295 employees who are on suspension (b) the total cost to the salary of these employees is R33 789 294.51.

The breakdown of each department and provinces is annexed hereto.

This information is about all employees on suspension and not only those on suspension for periods longer than 60 days.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 87 of 177 National DepartmentsTotal Number of Cases resolved/pendingDuration of each suspensionNature of allegationsChallengesTotal Cost of Pending CasesAgriculture, Forestry and Fisheries1Theft Parties had difficulty in securing a common date where both parties were available to hold the hearing.R 0,00Communication00NoneNot statedR 0,00Correctional Services23760 days 38 X Theft, bribery, fraud, corruption and dereliction of duties,11x dereliction of duties, 31x breaching of security measures,5xAllegations of criminal charges against official,10xassualt on fellow official ,9x while on duty condusts herself/himself in an improper manner,11x leaving post without permission,3xfailure to comply with,1x While on duty is under the influence of an intoxicating, illegal, unauthorized, habit-forming and/ or stupefying drug, including alcohol.3x Prejudice the administration ,discipline or efficiency of a department ,office or institution of the state,2x Bring the name of the Department into disrepute,6x Failure to carry out a lawful order or routine instruction without just and reasonable cause,2x Unauthorised transaction with an offender and unlawful release of an offender.2x Found in a compromising position/situation, seemingly intimate position with an inmate,1x Allegations of illegal action on the departmental premises,1X Alleged dealing with offender,7x Found in possession of dagga or mandrax tablets,1x Illegal possession of a state fire-arm,1x found in possession of a unlicensed fire-arm, ammunition & arrest by SAPS,2x Threatening a fellow official,1x Damage of state vehicle and found being under the influence of liquor, 103xvarious cases.No challenge is registered pertaining to precautionary suspensions at the moment.
R3 061 555.24DCoG/ COGTA1Alleged fraud and dishonestyNot statedR 0,00Department of Defence9Fraud ,bribery,theft of State property, possession of dagga on the premises of the State,loss of State funds Failure to perform duties Rep and chairperson took longer time to finalise the case, Employee delayed finalisation of the case by submitting several sick notes, which caused delay in the finalisation of the case,Chairperson took longer to submit his report.R 406 849,48Department of Health6Bribery,Fruitless expenditure, bribery, Assault and dishonestyChallenge of securing a chairperson and initiatorR 553 750,90Department of Home Affairs107Assault: 1, Fraud and corruption, gross dishonesty,Improper Conduct,Sexual Harassment: 1capacity of LROs,delaying tactics employed by employees and their representatives,Ill health of employees, their representatives, chairperson, witnesses and employer representatives,Public holidays and leave taken by employees and parties to the processR 7 060 339,77DIRCO1Alleged acts of misconductsNot statedR 546 000.00DPSAR 0,00NoneNoneNoneR 0,00DSBD0NoneNoneNoneR 0,00DST 71 employee suspended for 5 months Nov 2014 - March 2015, 1 employee suspended for 3 months April 2015- June 2015, 2 employees suspended for 4 months Nov 2014-Feb 2015, 1 employee suspended for 7 months Nov 2014-May 2015, 1 employee suspended for 8 months Nov 2014-June 2015 and 1 employee suspended for 13 months Nov 2014-Dec 2015.
41 months Fraud , Gross dishonesty and theft Postponement of the matter by the parties, the last matter was cocluded in December 2015 and currently there are no suspensions in place.R 1 161 433,00Traditional Affairs1Failure to disclose all financial interestNot statedR 0,00DTI (TRADE AND INDUSTRY91.

Misrepresentation=85 days 2.

Misrepresentation & dishonesty = 233 days 3.

Bribery & conflict of interests = 525 days 4.

Bribery & conflict of interests = 525 days 5.

Breach of Sabbatical leave = 14 days 6.


Misrepresentation/fraud = 34 days 7 Corruption/conflict of interests = 120 days 8 Forgery and misrepresentation =12 days 9.
Victimisation = 433 days Fraud, Misrepresentation/forgery, Bribery, Breach of sabbatical leave , VictimisationInvestigations took long as some cases involved Police investigations, Postponement by employee representatives, Frivolous requests that chairpersons recuse themselves in other cases, Utilisation of legal representatives, Urgent Court Applications by the employeesR 0,00ENERGY0NoneNoneNoneR 0,00 nkm1 Grossly and fraudulently misrepresentation credentials.

Using state resources for private business.


Gross disrespect, insolence and insubordination towards supervisor.Unavailability of Mr Nkambule due to illness.R 0,00Government Printing Works 4 Assault,Intentional Misrepresentation,Physical threatening the supervisor, Racist incitement No challengesR 0,00GPAA1Gross dishonesty, fraudAwaiting the chairperson’s decision on sanction R 689 509.64Human Settlement1 pending1 resolved223 days632 daysFailure to declare relationship with external service provider1.
Insubordination2.

Prejudicing Department3.

Dereliction of duty4.

Contravening Public Service Policy5.

Contravened Public Service Act6.

Negligence7.
MisrepresentationDG has appointed Department ‘s Legal services unit to handle the matterReinstatement with effect from 16/03/2015 R 377 013,00Military Veterans0,000NoneNoneR 0,00Mineral Resources0 0 NoneNoneR 0,00National Prosecuting Authority2Dishonesty,Influencing the complainant to withdraw criminal casePostponement due to illness by the employee,Delay in investigation as involves members of the public R391 939.25National Treasury2Irregular / Fruitless ExpenditureDelays were caused by the length of the Investigations.
R 1 364 071,43National Treasury0 0 NoneNoneR 0,00OPSC0 0 NoneNoneR 0,00Planning Monitoring and Evaluation0 0 Poor Work PerformanceNoneR 0,00Public Works1(3) Three months Failure to disclose relationships with service providers and unlawfully benefits from the service providersResolved , employees were dismissed following disciplinary hearingsNo pending casesSchool of Goverment0 NoneNoneNoneR 0,00Social Development0 NoneNoneNoneR 0,00Sport and Recreation SA110 MonthsInsubordination and insolence Employee submit sick notes before the hearing R 349 696,58STATS SA – Head office 2Insubordination 153 days.
Assault and Intimidation 82 daysinsubordination, Assault and intimidationNot statedR 0,00The Presidency3 Theft, Sexual Harassment,Supply Chain IrregularitiesAppeal Process, Appeal submitted to the appeals committee in August 2015, to date the department is still awaiting the outcome.,Appointment of an Investigator ( Majority of Colleagues requested to conduct the investigation were unavailable) R 225 651.92National Dept of Transport1Irregular / Fruitless ExpenditureDelays were caused by the length of the Investigations.Delays were caused by the length of the Investigations.R 1 364 071,43TOURISM00NoneNoneR 0,00Water and Sanitation2FraudAwaiting the decision of the appeal by the Minister, Presiding Officer failed to provide the Department with the verdict of the Disciplinary Hearing.
R 579 958,45TOTAL396R 16 620 710,51 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 88 of 177 PROVINCIAL REPORTPROVINCESTotal Number of Cases resolved/pendingDuration of each suspensionNature of allegationsChallengesTotal Cost of Pending CasesEastern Cape6Fruitless and wasteful expenditure, Failure to perform dutiesNot statedR 5 710 536,12Free State26Gross Negligence,Gross Insubordination, Malicious deleting of documents ,Unofficial removal of documents, Fraud and Corruption,, gross deriliction, sexaul harassment, Theft and irregular expenditureThe appointment of external Presiding Officer and Employer Representatives.,Investigation took too long it involves other stake holders , Investigation took too long it involves other stake holders , Investigation too complex, accused hospitalised ,Extensive investigations.R 5 320 501,96Gauteng17Violation of Privacy and Sabotaging of Cibecs server, Conduct private business in the property of state, theft, fraud and corruption, dishonesty, Insubordination and contravention of delegation of authority, Allegations pertaining to contravention of the code of conduct, Failure to comply with, or contravention of clause 12.4.8 of the Department Communication policy; bringing the name of the Department into disrepute and contravention of Paragraph C.2.6 of the code of Conduct.The allegations are of a technical nature thus the Department had to source out the services of an investigator with ICT experience.
Since the employee is an ICT specialist, the Department needed to conclude all investigations first before uplifting the suspension, to ensure that the employee does not interfere with investigations., The matter was investigated by external lawyers.
Employer is struggling to get witness to prove the case., Unavailability of witnesses whom are not employees of the department as well as unavailability of the Presiding Officer., The Chairperson was appointed and withdrew R 5 175 689,02PROVINCESTotal Number of Cases resolved/pendingDuration of each suspensionNature of allegationsChallengesTotal Cost of Pending CasesKwazulu Natal 55Sexual Harassment.,Insubordination,Jeopardise investigation,Fake Qualification ,Incitement of learners against Educators & financial Mismanagement,In a relationship with a learner,Gross Insubordination,Carry himself in improper manner ,Threatening another employee & AbsenteeismNot statedR 8 763 326,00Limpopo105corruption, nepotism, tender fraud, violation of public service regulations and putting image of the Office of the Premier into disrepute.
Breach of supply chain processes;Violation of public service regulations;Failure to sign APP and budget for the Directorate,1x Gross dishonesty;Financial mismanagement,Not statedR 185 347 057,79Mpumalanga43Assault/dishonesty/theft/fighting at workplace,Irregular appointment/gross negligence/theft/racism/ fraud,Assault/mismanagement of funds/sexual assault/defiance/fraud;Fraud, corruption, theft, misuse of state propertyNon-availability of presiding officers,Non-availability of witnesses and evidenceR 4 576 512,23Northern Cape8Assault ,Theft and Fraud,Financial Misconduct,Examination irregularities,Sexual harassment to a learner Unavailability of employee & witness in chief,R 84 811 278,00PROVINCESTotal Number of Cases resolved/pendingNature of allegationsChallengesTotal Cost of Pending CasesNorth West21Transgression with PFMA(Attorneys), Inciting a junior official to press allegations of rape against a Senior Manager , Dereliction of duty and failure to act on the instruction of the employer Awaiting PO’s report,R 6 366 434,79Western Cape10Financial irregularities,Alleged Procurement irregularities, Misrepresentation,Sexual Harrassment, Insubordination, improper conductNot statedR 937 103,74TOTAL291R 307 008 439,65 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 89 of 177 Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for that concise answer and it is appreciated that he will make the statistics available to us.
Yes, our government’s wage bill is already very, very high.

Employees on suspension are actually placing an extra burden on government departments.

What is the department doing to reduce this phenomenon in our Public Service?

Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, obviously, we are deeply concerned about the time that it takes us to finalise cases.
Collaborating with the Department of Public Service and Administration, the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation, and the Treasury, we have put together a team which begins to intervene in areas where we seem to be unable to perform.

This is one area where we are intervening.

We are dispensing special teams to assist with the resolution of the disputes to facilitate resolution of cases.

We will do the same with the 30-day payment period, which kills small businesses.

So, we are intervening actively.


Thank you.

Mr M RAYI: Hon Deputy Chair, I just want to ask about a mechanism that could be put in place to speed up these disciplinary processes.

Because you will find that there are employees who have been on suspension for years.

Yesterday, I was watching the programme, Expresso, during which Gen Mdluli said that he has been suspended for six years.

Is there no other mechanism to speed things up?


20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 90 of 177 I know, for instance, in the province, when we were engaging with the former premier, Noxolo, she indicated that she was going to sell to your department, Minister, the idea of considering getting retired judges involved to try and speed up such cases.

I don’t know if you would consider that as part of the mechanisms.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, in principle, one would not be opposed to that because what we have developed now, through the National School of Government, is a system where we bring in former, retired civil servants to come and assist with training.

So, I am saying that the principle sounds alright because the retired judges are being paid, even when they have retired.

We don’t have to spend more money on other people.


We can bring them in – obviously, in consultation - and hopefully, persuade them to see it as their national duty.

I thank you very much.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I had somebody but I forgot to note it.

[Interjections.]

I think you will be the last one, yes?

Mr F ESSACK: Thank you, Deputy Chair.

Hon Minister, let’s get down to the serious side of business.

[Laughter.]
[Laughter.]

Your colleagues are, obviously, always trying their protection games.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 91 of 177 Hon Minister, just to recap, are there any plans to capacitate the human resources departments to equip them with the needed skills to conduct disciplinary hearings in government departments?

Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister, I did not understand it, so ...
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, if I understood it, the question is: Are there any plans to capacitate the human resources units within the departments?

Of course, we do give training to our civil servants.

We upgrade them, as already explained earlier on, and if there are deficiencies, we definitely do intervene.

I must say that we are worried about this issue of the outstanding cases that have not been resolved.
So, I’ve already stated the intervention mechanisms that we have set up – the special units - to focus on areas where we are underperforming.

Thank you very much.

Finalisation of disciplinary processes 131.


Ms T Wana (ANC) asked the Minister of Public Service and Administration: 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 92 of 177 Whether there is a regulatory framework within his department which determines the period within which disciplinary processes should be finalised (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO345E The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, yes, now we are coming back to the same question which we have been dealing with.

Anyway, the period within which the disciplinary processes should be finalised is contained in Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council, PSCBC, Collective Agreement Resolution 1 of 2003, which is the disciplinary code and procedure for public servants.
The ministerial directive in Chapter 7 of the Senior Management Service Handbook on the period within which disciplinary cases should be dealt with is contained in clause 7(3)(a) of the code.

This states that a disciplinary hearing should be held within 10 days of notifying the employee that such a hearing will take place.

The outcome of the hearing should be communicated within five working days, in terms of clause 7(3)(0) of the code, after the conclusion of the disciplinary hearing.
Clause 7(2)(c) of the code states that if the employee is suspended or transferred as a precautionary measure, the employer must hold a disciplinary hearing within a month, or 60 days, depending on the complexity of the matter and the length of the investigation.

The 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 93 of 177 chairperson of the hearing must then decide on any further postponement.

In instances where employees lodge appeals, Clause 8(8) of the code states that departments must finalise them within 30 days.
The combined periods to finalise a disciplinary process where there are minimal complexities is 90 days.

Thank you.

Ms T WANA: Deputy Chairperson, Minister, I wanted clarity: Is the department using South African Human Resource Management in the public sector?

If that is the case, what is their role with regard to considering the long service of public servants with regard to promotions?

And with regard to transformation, what is their framework in terms of Batho Pele, which was adopted in 1996?
Because if you look at those professionals, they are too white, and when you look at their practices, they are not far from the apartheid practices.

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, I don’t have an answer to that question.

I would have to come back to the member about it.

Thank you.

Timeframe for pension payouts 143.


Dr Y C Vawda (EFF) asked the Minister of Public Service and Administration: 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 94 of 177 Whether there are any mechanisms in place to ensure that departments make pension payouts within the period prescribed by law (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what mechanisms?
CO364E The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, in terms of Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council Resolution 1 of 2012, the employer committed to submitting exit documents to the Government Pensions Administration Agency, GPAA, within 30 days of the employee’s exit.

The GPAA further issued a practice notice to all employer departments as far back as 2014.
The practice notice is intended to inform employer departments of the minimum steps to be taken in the event that an employee retires from employment.

In terms of the Government Employees Pension Law, 1996, the pension payout should be transferred to the person concerned within 60 days after submission of all exit documents to the GPAA.
In other words, the GPAA takes approximately 30 days to process a payment after the employer departments have prepared exit documents and submitted the documents to the GPAA.

The GPAA also interacts with members and pensioners through road shows, where people are afforded an opportunity to update their personal information and have their queries attended to on site.
In 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 95 of 177 some instances, the delays are caused by the employees due to their tax affairs not being in order, changing banks and not informing the GPAA accordingly, and a host of other reasons, including court orders in divorce settlements.

Thank you, Deputy Chair.

Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, I am going to keep it simple this time.

Hon Deputy Minister, these backlogs that take place in the pension payouts are, obviously, not something ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: We have the Minister in our midst today.

Dr Y C VAWDA: My apologies.

Did I say “Deputy Minister”?

[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Which one are you redeploying?

Who has been redeployed?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, Chief Whip.

Hon Vawda, it is the Minister and not the Deputy Minister.

Dr Y C VAWDA: Apologies ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Apology is accepted.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 96 of 177 Dr Y C VAWDA: ...
I am referring to the Deputy Chair, sorry.

[Interjections.]

Yes, yes.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are protected, hon Vawda.

Continue.

Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Minister, the question that we are asking is about these pension payouts and the delays in these pension payouts.

They are not universal.

They are not found all over.

There are certain areas where they are happening.


The question that we are asking is: Is there a plan in place to identify exactly where the backlogs are, what the reasons for the backlogs are, and whether there is a plan in place to build capacity to ensure that these backlogs will not take place?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, again, it is the same answer.
Hon member, what we are doing, where we see gaps ... because what happens in the governance system, now, is that we have the clusters and we monitor performance by provinces.

And where we identify problem areas, we colour them red.

Where we make progress, it is yellow, and where there is good performance, it is green.

We take measures to move from red to yellow to green in areas where we are lagging behind.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr S G THOBEJANE: Chairperson, Minister, this problem ... 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 97 of 177 ... ya go diega ga tefo ya diphenšene, ke nnete.

Mohlomongwe se le swanetšego go se dira ke gore le lebelele gore naa sedirišwa sa lena sa go monithara ke sa mohuta mang – seo se kgotsofatšago ke gore batho ba ba tla se tšweletša ka potlako gomme ba se diriša go ya ka moo molao o ngwadilwego ka gona.

(Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[... of delayed pension payouts is true.


I suggest that you find an efficient way for people to monitor the progress in respect of their pension payouts.

This is to ensure that their pensions are paid out timeously, as stipulated by the law.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, basically, as I am saying, wherever we have weaknesses, we put measures in place.

That is the job of my department to make sure that problematic areas are identified.
But first, we have to diagnose the problem - just to give you an example, the issue of the 30-day payment, which is a standard and a norm.

So, you have to ask the question: Why is it that the departments are not able to pay within 30 days?

Have we set the bar much too high?

You have to ask those questions.

We are interrogating subjects like that.

As we intervene, we discover that, sometimes, the problem is not that the bar is too high but it is the implementation steps.
In other words, delegations of authority.

For instance, if only one person is authorised to sign off a document and there is no other 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 98 of 177 person to do the same, in the absence of that one, you have a problem.

So, we are loosening up those systems.

Thank you very much.

Verification of qualifications 130.


Mr D L Ximbi (ANC) asked the Minister of Public Service and Administration: What measures has his department taken to verify the authenticity of qualifications of current employees in the Public Service in light of the recent public sensation regarding fraudulent and fake qualifications in South Africa?
CO344E The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, in terms of the Public Service Regulations, all departments are required to conduct personnel suitability checks on individuals prior to appointment, as part of the recruitment process.

By the way, this goes back to an earlier question which was asked.

These checks are done to ensure that credible individuals are employed in the Public Service.
The checks also include the verification of qualifications and are done with the aim of checking every candidate’s suitability for employment in the Public Service, and for any potentially corrupt practice on the part of the candidate, such as the deliberate misrepresentation of facts.

Some 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 99 of 177 departments also engage in bulk verification of currently employed individuals, to improve their employee data.
The SA Qualifications Authority, as an organ of state and the custodian of South African qualifications, has been identified through a directive issued by the Minister of Public Service and Administration to verify qualifications of both current and prospective employees in the Public Service.
If the same authority, through their verification process, identifies incidences of alleged misrepresentation or fraudulent qualifications, then individual departments are alerted by the authority in the verification report to deal with the matter further, as may be required.

The authority also reports to the Department of Public Service and Administration any case of suspected misrepresentation.
The information provided by the authority only relates to the misrepresentation of the qualification in terms of the request received by the authority from the departments.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, Minister, don’t you think that the department needs to fast-track or speed up the implementation of a single administration so that the department can intervene in fighting corruption, especially in the municipalities?
For example, 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 100 of 177 the City of Cape Town employs a deputy director without qualifications.

The City also employed an adviser without qualifications to the mayor.

He was a leader of pota-pota, Loyiso Nkohla.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Ximbi, please take your seat.

Oh, alright.

Thank you very much.

Continue.

Mr D L XIMBI: Thank you.


Don’t you think that speeding up this single administration will help curb this corruption of people employed without qualifications and people employing their friends in their offices without qualifications?

[Interjections.]

Thank you, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: We are moving in that direction of creating a single ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Faber, order!

Order, hon Nthebe!
Order, hon Nthebe!

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, we are moving in the direction of a single Public Service.

The Act provides for that.

There are regulations which are systematically being promulgated and gazetted to operationalise the Act.

Thank you very much.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 101 of 177 Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you.

It is “House Chair”, neh, or what is it?

“Deputy House Chair”, am I right?

Let me say “presiding officer”.


You know, Minister, the DA had to go to court against the chief operating officer of the SABC, and we won the case.

He had no qualifications.

My point is if we want a Public Service with zero unqualified people in it, why didn’t your department ...?

At least, I would expect that you could at least tell the ANC to stop and that it should say something about this.
You said nothing about it and it impacts directly on the Public Service, because what you want to do in the Public Service ... that was directly against you, and you said nothing about it.

I mean, it is taking you further.

In any case, the follow-up question that I also want to ask ...

[Interjections.]

... No, I don’t really expect the Minister to respond to a political statement.

That is a Rule in the House.


My question is: Have any of the officials found guilty of fraudulent qualifications, so far, been placed on a register of misrepresentation of qualifications and on a register of fraudulent qualifications, respectively?

If so, are these names available to the public?

Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Well, Chair, the state-owned enterprises, SOEs, are not regulated by the Department 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 102 of 177 of Public Service and Administration.

So, I would respond to the issue of Ntate Hlaudi at the SABC as falling outside our scope of responsibility.

Mr J W W JULIUS: [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Julius!

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Indeed, Chair, I said nothing.
That is why you heard nothing.

[Laughter.]

So, I did say nothing.

I said nothing.

That’s why you heard nothing, hon member.

Now, on the second part of the question, I will have to come back to you.

Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Minister.

Question 124 has been asked by Kgosi Thobejane to the Minister.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Sorry?

That’s done.

It’s Question 130.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Oh, alright.
Thank you very much.

Question 130 was your last question.

You did very well, hon Minister and ...

[Applause.]

...

I really want to applaud the hon members for the order they have shown in this House.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 103 of 177 As we continue with our questions, I would like to welcome the hon Minister.

Before you even come in, wait for me to ...

[Interjections.]

Is it on a point of order?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, on a point of clarity ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): That is why I am requesting you to take your seat and to listen to me.

Mr J W W JULIUS: I just wanted to know what the yardstick for “did well” is.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I did not ... Mr J W W JULIUS: How do you know the Minister did well?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I did not allow you ...

I did not give you permission to speak.

[Applause.]

Thank you very much.

Indeed, the Minister deserves a round of applause.


Hon members, I have an announcement to make.

The hon Minister Shabangu is going to respond to these questions.

Minister Radebe is attending the UN Assembly in New York and Deputy Minister Manamela is chairing an interministerial committee in Pretoria.

So, the hon Minister is going to take responsibility for the hon Minister in The Presidency.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 104 of 177 Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, on a point of order ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I see two hon members standing on their feet.

Can I allow the hon Mokwele and then the hon Chabangu ...

Sorry?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetulo wa Ntlo, ke rata go tsaya tšhono e go ... [House Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to ...] ... register a concern with regard to the Ministry in The Presidency.

It’s not the first time that they are doing this.


For the Order Paper to be released and published to us, it’s with the ... ... go netefaditswe gore ...

[Tsenoganong.]

[... we were assured that ...

[Interjections.]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mthimunye, please allow the hon member to say whatever she wants to say.

[Inaudible.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Go netefaditswe gore ... [We were assured that ...] ...

Ministers will be available.


The hon Jeff Radebe ... 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 105 of 177 ... maloba o tlile fano a araba dipotso, a dira polelo fa a fetsa a tsamaya.

[... was here not so long ago and he answered questions, made a statement, and left ...] ... without even responding to our follow-up statements.

Secondly, it has been a while since we have seen the Ministers from The Presidency.
So, we want to register a concern, hon Chair ... ... gore a Ditona di re tlotle, fa ba tshwanetse ba tle mo Ntlong ba tle mo ntlong.

Maitato a Motlatsatona nna ga ke e tseye ... [... that Ministers must respect us.

When they are scheduled to come to the House, they must do so.

I do not accept the Deputy Minister’s apologies ...] ... as the EFF in this House.

Thanks.
Thanks.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, before I allow the hon Labuschagne to speak, can I raise this letter to the members of the House?

Hon Mokwele?

Hon Mokwele?

Ke kgopela o lebelele pele, mma.

Le go lebelela o lebeledišiše.

Go bolela nnete, taba yeuwe o e bolelago e a kwagala - bjale ditaba šedi ... (Translation of Sepedi pargraph follows.)

[Please look first, madam.

Look carefully.


To be honest with you, you are right – now ...] 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 106 of 177 ... there is an apology ... ... yeo e šetšego e rometšwe; ga go swane le ge re re ga go na motho yo a lego gona go araba dipotšišo.

[... that has already been sent out.

It’s not like we are saying that there is no one to respond to the questions.]

So, there is an apology ... ... ye ba e rometšego.

Ntlha ya gago ye o e ngwadišitšego re a e leboga.


E kwagetše, e tla fihla ka ofising ya Mopresidente.

[... that has already been sent out.

Your point is noted.

We will ensure that it is sent to the Office of the President.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, hon Chair.

I want to support the hon member in what she has said, but I would like to have clarity.

Which Minister is going to stand in for the Minister in The Presidency now?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Repeat your question.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Which Minister is going to stand in for the Minister in The Presidency now?

[Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): We have Minister Shabangu in front of us and in the House.

She’s going to ... 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 107 of 177 Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: May I also know what the date of the letter of apology to this House was?

[Interjections.]

None of this was raised in the multiparty forum and/or the programming committee meeting.
Those are the decision-making organisations and structures in this House.

Decisions are not being made by other people.

I am a member of those two bodies and for the second time this year, this is what is happening here.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, hon member, your concern is also registered.

Can you take your seat, ma?

Alright, finish then.


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I would like to know why my point of order with regard to the date on the letter of apology cannot be divulged to this House, because this is apparent.
If the programming committee, or the Chief Whip’s Office, or whoever makes decisions in this House - because it’s absolutely clear that it’s not the multiparty Chief Whips Forum or the programming committee, because none of these things were discussed there - then, they should’ve known, if the Minister apologised long before the time, that we could reschedule, or not allow these questions.
Because we are going to sit in a position again that when we ask follow-up questions, those questions will not be answered.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 108 of 177 So, Chair, can you rule on whether the Minister is going to take the questions on the Question Paper and the follow-ups, or is she only going to take the questions on the Paper?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, thank you very much.

I’ve noticed your hand, hon Mthimunye.


I have a letter of apology in front of us, which is dated today, 20 September, and the reason was that the Minister was ready to come to the House.

The other thing is that the hon Minister is acting.

That is why she is here.

I believe she will take the responsibility.

[Interjections.]

Yes.

Let’s allow her to continue, hon members.

Hon Mthimunye, do you still want to say something?

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Yes, Chair.


Please, for future purposes, let’s not allow this kind of exchange between the presiding officer and members who subject the presiding officer to cross-examination on administrative matters.

The exchange of correspondence is between Parliament and a department.

It’s an administrative matter.

And a Minister can represent another Minister, in terms of the Rules, as long as they have agreed to it.

It can’t be debated in this House.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much.

Hon members, please take your seats.

Hon Mthimunye, they were ...

I 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 109 of 177 think they are also allowed to register their points.

So, we are done with this one.

Now, we continue.

We are now on Question 124.

Hon Minister, you are welcome.

Question 124 has been raised by Kgosi S G Thobejane.

Over to you, hon Minister.


Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetulo, mo ntlheng ya kgalemo: PeleTona a araba, ntlha e e motl Mthimunye a e tlhagisang ... [Chairperson, on a point of order: Before the Minister gives an answer, the point that is raised by the hon Mthimunye ...] ... is out of order.

You must tell him that he’s out of order because he is ...

[Interjections.]

... a member of the programming ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): The point of order is sustained.
Hon Tebogo ... hon Tebogo ... Ms T J MOKWELE: ... and for a member to ask questions of clarity is outlined in the Rules.

It’s outlined in the Rules.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Tebogo!

Ms T J MOKWELE: I’m listening, Ma’am.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 110 of 177 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Please, I’m requesting you to be quiet, because the hon member next to you is rising on a point of order ... ... gomme ke nyaka go go bontšha gore ke ahlotše mo morerong wouwe, mohl Tebogo.
Re swanetše re fetele pele, bjale wena o re bušetša morago.

Ga go na taba.

Mohl Nyambi!

Dula fase, mma.

Dula fase, mohl Tebogo.

Ke a leboga.

(Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[... and I would like to indicate to the hon Tebogo that I have made a ruling against that.

We need to proceed, but you keep taking us back.

No problem, hon Nyambi.

Please take your seat, hon Tebogo.

I thank you.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Chair, let me respectfully submit that you have made a ruling and the member is challenging your ruling.

So, that is why I am appealing that she is out of order.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order sustained.

Continue, hon Minister.

Performance monitoring of three spheres 124.


Kgoši S G Thobejane (ANC) asked the Minister in The Presidency: 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 111 of 177 What is the role of his department in monitoring performance across the three spheres of government (details furnished)?

CO338E The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): Thank you, Chairperson.

The answer to ...

[Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Tebogo, please allow the Minister to respond to the question.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): Chair, the answer to Question 124 from Kgosi Thobejane is as follows.

Since its establishment in 2010, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has developed a number of tools and systems to monitor the work of government across all spheres of government.
At national level, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation monitors the implementation of the National Development Plan, NDP, 2030 and the 14 priority outcomes through the Medium-Term Strategic Framework and the programme of action, with quarterly reports to Cabinet on progress.

All departments are subject to submit their reports to Cabinet.

Thank you.

Mr S G THOBEJANE: Thank you, House Chair, and thank you, Minister, for the response.
The follow-up question is as follows: Are you 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 112 of 177 confident that the tool you are using to play your monitoring and performance has the capacity to detect the deficiencies at whatever level of government?

Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): Chair, I thank the hon Kgosi.

I’d just like to say that the current tool we have ... as you know, it’s been less than five years since it was developed.
At this stage, there are various reports which come and ... having observed by the report ... and we believe that the tool is effective where we monitor service delivery ... and the citizen-based monitoring tool programme, which intends to see whether there is quality of service provided.
Hon Kgosi, I must also say that whilst we are doing this, at various times, we continue to evaluate the outcome of the reports but also on the basis of that, they are able to indicate whether the tool is effective, and we continue to refine it in a way that will allow us to continue responding adequately to ensure that we get quality reports.

Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you, hon Chairperson and hon Minister.
Hon Minister, I just want to find out if there are consequences for nonperformance; and if there are, can you just cite examples?

In South Africa, one hears of government departments getting disclaimers.

We haven’t heard of any consequences for Ministers, 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 113 of 177 administrators, premiers, or MECs.

Are there consequences, or is it just a tool?

If there are, can you cite just one example?

... eyodwa nje, Mhlonishwa?

[Uhleko.]

[... just one, hon member?

[Laughter.]]


The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): Thank you very much, Chairperson.

I’d just like to indicate that the objective of the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation is to assess the performance of various departments, identify weaknesses and gaps, and to be able to show where improvements and transgressions have happened.
When it comes to the question of whether the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation has the responsibility of disciplining those who are transgressing, it’s not its responsibility.

Its responsibility is to compile reports and make recommendations.
Some of those recommendations are recommendations which departments themselves ... as they are being identified ... and transgressions ... As we know, the accounting officer must take responsibility and if there are findings which are made by Monitoring and Evaluation, then the Minister of the respective department has a responsibility to take necessary measures when his or her department is not performing accordingly and there are findings.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 114 of 177 Just to assist, hon Khawula, it’s also part of what internal audits in departments look at and what the Auditor-General, at the end, identifies.

Perhaps, as you know, the Auditor-General has indicated that there are, sometimes, findings where there are no consequences.
However, I can also say that there are departments which have acted when they are not ... especially, the responsible officials ... when they are not able to implement recommendations ... and give progress on government programmes, we might have to go to the various departments to give you that report, where you can see there was action taken at some point.

Mr M RAYI: Thank you, Chair.

I was going to ask a question similar to the one that the hon Khawula has asked.
It seems as if we are asking the same questions, because he wrote me a note with regard to the previous one - that I’ve taken the question that he was going to ask.

However, given that the Minister in The Presidency says that they don’t have powers to discipline spheres of government, would the Minister in The Presidency consider bringing in legislation to that effect so that there is consequence management for those that fail to live up to expectations — so that there is consequence management?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): Thank you very much, hon member.

I’d just like to 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 115 of 177 indicate that it might be a good idea, but I don’t think that the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation would be the one, because we are also dealing with civil servants.

We have disciplinary codes, processes, and procedures on what the consequences are when departments or officials do not deliver on their mandates.
Part of that is informed by their performance agreements, because what we, as Monitoring and Evaluation, are talking about is what departments do.

It’s the work they do every day, and if they are not doing that work, indeed, I agree, there must be consequences.

I also think the Department of Public Service and Administration has the necessary tools to discipline officials who are unable to execute their responsibilities.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Minister.
Unfortunately, I’m left with one member, who will be the hon Mokwele.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you, Chair, hon Minister.

My question is as follows: Is your department relevant if it doesn’t have the mandate to take steps against those who are not performing?

Are we not misusing ...

[Interjections.]

Can I speak, Chair?

The hon Chief Whip of the Council is intimidating me.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Well, I did not notice that.

I gave you permission to speak.


I did not notice that.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 116 of 177 Ms T J MOKWELE: Alright, thank you.

As I was saying, do we really need this Ministry?

Because it doesn’t have any mandatory duties to discipline, it just makes the recommendations.

So, why can’t we take the budgets and make sure that we strengthen the Department of Public Service and Administration so that it can have that capacity to deal with matters of ...

[Interjections.]

You see now?

[Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Allow her to finish, hon Chief Whip.

Are you done, ma?

Ms T J MOKWELE: Ee, o ntshositse ka gonne ke motho yo mogolo akere.

[Setshego.]

[Yes, as an elderly person, she scared me.

[Laughter.]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, please take your seat, hon Tebogo.

Although you are talking about the Ministry, the question deals with the department.
Anyhow, I’ll leave this in the hands of the Minister, unless the Chief Whip wants to say something.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You do want to?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I do, I do.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Mama, please take your seat.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 117 of 177 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, to my ears, that question sounded like a new question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Chief Whip, that is why I said it would depend on the Minister as to whether she wants to respond.

It is, indeed, a new question.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): Thank you, Chairperson.

I think I will respond to the question.

There is an absolute necessity for the department’s existence.

If there was no need, it would not have been created.
I think we need to separate what is done by the Department of Public Service and Administration from Monitoring and Evaluation.

The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation is responsible for the evaluation and monitoring of government programmes and service- delivery effectiveness to the people.

The Department of Public Service and Administration is responsible for conditions of employment, as the employer of the state.

So, these are two completely different responsibilities.
Monitoring and evaluation, which is one of its roles currently, is to make sure that the Batho Pele principles are implemented.

One of its responsibilities is to make sure that Ministers are able to deliver on the 14 outcomes, but also that there is no conflict 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 118 of 177 amongst Ministers, because sometimes you find that the work they do is complementary ... how best do we have that?
Currently, we talk about cluster systems, where Ministers come together to maximise their contributions and delivery of services.

Implementation of National Evaluation System 142.


Ms T J Mokwele (EFF) asked the Minister in The Presidency: (1) What is the current state of the (a) implementation and (b) efficacy of South Africa’s National Evaluation System; (2) whether the system is effective; if not, why not; if so, (a) why are departments returning unused infrastructure funds to the National Treasury (details furnished); (3) what action is his department taking in instances where departments are underperforming?
CO363E The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): Chair, in November 2011, Cabinet approved the National Evaluation Policy Framework, which sets the basis for the National Evaluation System.

The framework provides a system for government to evaluate its policies, programmes, and systems.

The findings of evaluations are tabled before Cabinet.
The evaluation system has progressed since its first evaluation, completed in 2012, to 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 119 of 177 54 national evaluations under way or completed, covering R90 billion of government expenditure.

In addition, there are 55 provincial evaluations being undertaken, and there are, in addition, a number of evaluations being undertaken by national departments.
Therefore, the Department of Planning Monitoring and Evaluation presents to Cabinet the findings and recommendations of the evaluations, and the relevant department produces an implementation plan to address the findings of the evaluation.

Focus is not only on performance but also on assessing the impact of government policies and programmes, as I indicated earlier on.

Thank you.

Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chairperson, I thank the hon Minister for the answer.

My follow-up question goes like this.


The main concern here is that the impression out there is that government does not work and does not care about the plight of the people.

The department of education in the Eastern Cape has been returning budgets to the National Treasury for many years, and nothing has been done to ensure that monies allocated are spent for the purpose they have been allocated.
Is the National Evaluation System allowing for action to be taken against individuals who are not doing their jobs in the department?

If not, why not?

Thank you.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 120 of 177 The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in the Presidency): House Chairperson, I think my earlier response answered that.

There are systems in government.


The Department of Public Service and Administration is responsible for defining what should happen to officials who do not execute their responsibilities adequately.

Just to add, when you talk about the Eastern Cape, especially the department of education, there have been various interventions which members need to understand, not just one.
Perhaps you would better understand your section 100 provision, where the national government intervenes in trying to make sure a difference is made.

So, you can say you don’t know, but I’m just saying that is exactly what is happening.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order!

Order, hon Mokwele!

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): ... and may I also say that it is not the same.
You can say it is the same, but you also need to acknowledge that despite the huge backlog, there is a change in the Eastern Cape.

There might still be problems but there are changes, and the national Department of Basic Education continues to come up with interventions.

So, I just want to say that there are mechanisms in government which intend to address officials who are not doing their work.
And I 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 121 of 177 think some of us can give you people who are unemployed because they could not fulfil their obligations in government.

We have a lot of them.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Minister.

Even though she was trying to intimidate you so that you could not respond, you managed.

In the absence of other hands, we continue to Question 125.

Aims of Operation Phakisa 125.


Ms G M Manopole (ANC) asked the Minister in The Presidency: Whether government has achieved the aims of Operation Phakisa (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?

CO339E The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): House Chairperson, the government of South Africa is on a firm course towards achieving the aims of Operation Phakisa.

The South African government’s approach and methodology for accelerating ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Sorry, I am sorry, hon Minister.

Alright, hon Mokwele ... 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 122 of 177 Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): ...

I have noticed that the hon Manopole is not in the House.

Neither is the hon Chief Whip.

My apologies that I did not check before allowing the hon Minister to respond.

Order sustained.

[Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chair, can we ... let’s not do that.
The hon Manopole is not in the House ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I am saying that.

Ms T J MOKWELE: ... so this question cannot be taken in terms of the Rules, but you did not indicate it.

Please.

An HON MEMBER: You have made your point.

Just accept it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, we continue.

We will continue to Question ... Hon Khawula?


Mr M KHAWULA: House Chair, because this will happen to one of us in the future, I want it to be in order: It is not only that the hon Manopole is not in the House but also because there has not been any arrangement.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 123 of 177 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): That is what I said, and I have apologised for that.

Hon Minister, please take us through Question 136.

May I check if the hon Engelbrecht is in the House?
M & E framework for SOEs 136.

Ms B A Engelbrecht (DA) asked the Minister in The Presidency: Whether there is a monitoring and evaluation framework that has been developed for all state-owned enterprises, SOEs, since the appointment of the President of the Republic as the new Chairperson of the Presidential SOE Co-ordinating Council; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO357E The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for the Minister in The Presidency): Chairperson, there is no monitoring and evaluation system designed specifically for monitoring state-owned enterprises, SOEs.

Since the President has been appointed as chair of the council, some of those issues are still to be developed.

But, in addition, through shareholder compacts, they enter as government through Ministers into shareholder ...
They take the responsibility of monitoring the performance of state-owned assets.

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, I am not sure I understood the Minister clearly.

The way I understood her is that she said there is no monitoring and evaluation framework, which is very concerning, 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 124 of 177 because if that is true, then it makes sense why the chief operating officer, Hlaudi Motsoeneng, was allowed to authorise the dismissal of four journalists.
My question, then, is: What plans does the department have to create this monitoring and evaluation framework to ensure that the state- owned entities do not actually create some more rogue chief operating officers, like what has just happened?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for the Minister in The Presidency): Chairperson, may I say after that, as legislatures who do oversight would understand the law better, what does the King Commission say about the independence of boards and their responsibility?

So, I just want to say we can’t be an anomaly government where we are going to create laws to discipline state-owned individuals, but also, in a way that we will be flouting our own Constitution.
I think we understand the laws of this country.

We are the lawmakers.

We know exactly that there is the question of boards of SOEs, or any institutions, being independent in running those assets, hence the King Commission.

I would urge the hon member to go and read the report, especially now that it has been further refined in making sure that corporate governance is very strong.

Thank you.
Thank you.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 125 of 177 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): We are now going to Question 121, asked by the hon M J Mohapi, and I have received an indication that the hon Mthimunye is entrusted with this question.

Self-monitoring and evaluation 121.


Mr M J Mohapi (ANC) asked the Minister in The Presidency: Whether there are any over-arching self-monitoring and evaluation tools and systems within the government to (a) track, (b) monitor and (c) evaluate government performance on a continuous basis (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO335E The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for the Minister in The Presidency): Chair, the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation has government-wide monitoring and evaluation systems to monitor the implementation of government performance against priorities.

The Medium-Term Strategic Framework is the tool we use, as I have indicated, to implement government’s 14 outcomes.

Performance against the 14 outcomes is monitored and reported to the government programme-of-action system.
It also monitors progress against other priority areas, such as the Nine-Point Plan, quarterly progress reports, again, and other plans produced and submitted to Cabinet.

Thank you.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 126 of 177 Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon House Chair, I’d like to thank the hon Minister for her response and just make a little follow-up question around these tools: Don’t the tools and system transverse to those provided for by the Constitution to Parliament?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for the Minister in The Presidency): Chair, definitely not.

They complement what Parliament does and assist Parliament to make sure that when the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation appears in Parliament, they are able to offer you information which Parliament might not have had the opportunity to access.

So, it’s a department which is necessary to ensure that it strengthens and helps us.
However, it also makes sure that we are accountable, because as we are a new government, there are also issues of strengthening systems to make sure that issues of governance, accountability, and financial matters in our systems are properly done.

So, it complements Parliament instead of being something which might collude or end up going against what Parliament does.

Thank you.

Impact of GDP on 2033 outcomes 115.


Mr F Essack (DA) asked the Minister in The Presidency: 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 127 of 177 (1) How has the subsequent regression of the gross domestic product growth impacted on the 2033 outcomes, given Operation Phakisa’s 4% growth per annum projection; and (2) which of the 13 focus areas will make achieving the 2033 outcomes a challenge?
CO326E The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): Chair, Operation Phakisa is a South African government approach and a methodology for accelerating delivery on a national priority, which is espoused in the National Development Plan, NDP, and doing this faster and more efficiently.
The National Development Plan 2030 sets out the following outcomes: objectives for employment and growth; a decrease in the unemployment rate of 25% to 14%, in 2020, and to 6%, in 2030; and a rise in the labour-force participation rate from 54%, in 2010, to 64,5% – about 11 million additional jobs - by 2030.

In keeping with the NDP 2030, the first component of Operation Phakisa, which focuses on the Oceans Economy, was launched in 2014.
Government, together with its social partners, set an aspiration target of growing the gross domestic product and contributing to our Oceans Economy by between R129 billion and R177 billion by 2033, with between 800 000 and 1 million jobs being created.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 128 of 177 Major milestones have been attained towards achieving the aims of Operation Phakisa since its inception in July 2014.
The Oceans Economy component of Operation Phakisa has unlocked R17 billion in both public- and private-sector investment, and a total of 4 903 jobs are being created.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I rise on a point of order, hon House Chair: I thought you would give an opportunity to the hon Essack from the EFF in Limpopo and not the one from Mpumalanga.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright.


That is not a point of order because there is an initial attached to it – Mr F Essack.

Mr F ESSACK: It was a typographical error, Ma’am.

[Interjections.]

I don’t think it’s an issue.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright.

Hon Essack, please take your seat.

And where is the hon F Essack from Limpopo?

He is not in the House.


We were meant to have received a note from the Office of the Chief Whip that the hon Essack from Mpumalanga would rise on behalf of the hon Essack from Limpopo.

However, we didn’t get that.

Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson of Committees, you have saved the situation.

Please take your seat.

Let’s continue.

[Interjections.]

Hon Minister ... 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 129 of 177 Order!

Order!

Order, hon Essack!

You are not from Limpopo; you are from Mpumalanga.


[Interjections.]

Alright, please take your seat, hon Essack.

Mr F ESSACK: [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, please take your seat.

Hon Essack, allow democracy to reign in this House.

I am ruling and I am asking you to take a seat.

Alright.

Hon members, we will also skip Question 116 and go to ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetulo, mo ntlheng ya kgalemo: Santlha Modulasetulo ... [Chairperson, on a point of order: Firstly, Chairperson ...] ...

I think you are from Limpopo.

You know that you don’t have Essack in Limpopo.

And the name there is that of a member of this House.

The only challenge we have is the Question Paper that was typed from wherever.

It’s not the member’s fault.

The question is from the hon member from Mpumalanga.
What you need to do on your side is just to rectify the mistake that was made by the administration and allow the hon Essack to ask a follow-up question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele ... 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 130 of 177 Ke go kwele.

Ke go kwele gabotse; madimabe ga ke šome ka diphošollo.

Nna sa ka ke go bona gore Letlakala la Dipotšišo le tšwela pele.
Ka go realo, ke nagana gore ge e ba o na le pelaelo, o tla ngwalela Ofisi ya Sefepi Segolo ... Aowa, aowa, mohl Mokwele, ke sa bolela wena o emeletše o re aowa.

Ke kgopela gore o dule fase o ntheeletše.

Se se diregago gonabjale ke gore re tšwela pele, mohl Mokwele ... (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[I have heard you, loud and clear.

Unfortunately, I don’t deal with amendments on the Question Paper.

My job is to read out the list of questions, as set out on it.
I suggest that you refer any complaints to the Office of the Chief Whip ... No, no, hon Mokwele, I am still talking to you, and you are already up.

That is unacceptable.

Please be seated and listen to what I have to say.

We need to proceed, hon Mokwele ...] I have made a ruling on that one.

We continue.

[Interjections.]

Hon Mokwele ... hon Mokwele!

I want to recognise the hon Faber, and you are making a lot of noise there.
Mr W F FABER: House Chair, it cannot be that because the administration made a boo-boo with the hon Essack by putting him in Limpopo that these questions can’t be answered.

That cannot be.

If there was an administrative mistake, then it’s definitely not the issue of the hon member that posed the question, but an administrative issue.

We cannot now say that because this hon member 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 131 of 177 Essack in print is not here ... We all know that this is the hon Essack.
So, please, I would like you to rule on this.

Otherwise, unfortunately, we are going to have to take this further.

We cannot just leave it like this.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon Faber.

Can I ... Order, hon members!

Order!

Order!

Hon Faber, you know what to do, sir, if you are not satisfied.

We don’t have the member from Limpopo and we don’t even know where he is.

[Interjections.]

So, you can complain in writing to the Office of the Chief Whip.
Unless we ask the Chief Whip, because ... Alright, hon Essack, please take your seat.

The hon Chief Whip is here.

Perhaps she will clarify it for us and we can take it from there.

Hon Essack, I requested you to take your seat.

I requested you to take your seat.

Please take your seat.

I will then give you a chance after the Chief Whip.

Hon Mthimunye?

Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chair, you have already made a ruling on this matter.
Allowing the Chief Whip to make an input on this matter is taking this House backwards.

[Interjections.]

I want to submit that we progress and move to the next question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much for that, hon Mthimunye.

I made a ruling on Question 115.

We are now on 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 132 of 177 Question 116.

So, that is why I want clarity from the Chief Whip.

[Interjections.]

Hon Chief Whip ... Hon members, please take your seats!

You know how to complain.


Hon Chief Whip, there is a problem here.

[Interjections.]

We are on Question 116 ...

Yes.

Hon Mampuru and all of you standing, I am not going to recognise you.

[Laughter.]

I am now going to recognise the Chief Whip.

The Chief Whip must clarify this for us.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Then you didn’t notify the Table.

Ms T K MAMPURU: [Inaudible.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mampuru, please take your seat.

What you are saying is what we said.

That is why I am not going to allow all of you to speak.

I want the Chief Whip to speak because our offices aren’t dealing with this.

After you checked with the staff, you didn’t tell anyone.

We were not even aware that you were busy there.

Hon Chief Whip ...

Please, please, hon Mampuru, respect the Table.

Please.
Please.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 133 of 177 Hon Chief Whip, why is this happening?

Why is this happening, hon Chief Whip?

[Interjections.]

Questions 115 and 116 were asked by the hon Essack from the Limpopo province, and we don’t have the member from Limpopo here.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: House Chair, thank you very much.

As regards the logistics of how questions are being tabled, we do have the Questions Office.

However, to take this House forward, Chairperson, let us receive the responses.
The department has the responses, irrespective of who comes from which province.

The department is here.

We are not talking amongst ourselves here.

We are talking to the citizens of the country out there.

My plea, Chairperson, from your position and your kind heart is: Can you have the people of the Republic get the answer which the department has prepared?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Before we can listen to your request ...

Please take your seat, hon Chief Whip.


Before we can listen to your request, we want to know who this hon Essack from Limpopo is.

Because we don’t want to set a precedent ... ... ke gore ga re nyake go bea taba ye e lego gore le gosasa e tla ... [... that will put us in a difficult situation to handle in future.]

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 134 of 177 It will follow us; it will haunt us.
If the member is not in the House and there was no arrangement made with the Table, then we have to leave the question and go to another question.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: House Chair, House Chair, the Rule you are alluding to, from where I sit, I must be educated on the Rule of leaving a question ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Which one?

Are you referring to the one about the member not being in the House?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: No, no.

No, no.


I am talking about if members are allocated to provinces they don’t belong to - that particular Rule.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Chief Whip ... Hon members, please take your seats.

I want to be clear with the Chief Whip.

Are you saying ... Hon Chief Whip ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Alright.

No, it’s not my question; it’s not my query.

It looks like I am now under interrogation here.

[Laughter.]

I wanted ...

Yes!


I wanted the House to move forward.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Chief Whip, that’s what we want.

But I want to check, because there is chaos with this matter.

You said ... No, no, I want to check: Can you allocate me a 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 135 of 177 question and say you are from KwaZulu-Natal whereas you are from Limpopo?

Can we do that?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Because this one is from Limpopo.

If it is a typing error, Chief Whip, you must say so, and then, we move forward.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: What must I say?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Whether it is a typing error.

Is this hon Essack from Limpopo or from ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I think it is obvious.

We don’t have an Essack from Limpopo.

It’s obvious!

It’s a typing error.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright.

[Applause.]

Hon Chief Whip, we wanted to hear that.

Hon Nyambi, you are the one who raised a point of order on this matter.

[Interjections.]

The hon Chief Whip says this is a typing error, and so, we can take the question because we have the reasons now.

And the hon Minister has already responded to that question.

So, hon Essack, you can make your follow-up.


20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 136 of 177 Take your seats, hon members.

[Interjections.]

No, no, the Chief Whip says it’s a typing error.

Hon Essack, please continue.

I did not allow you to speak, hon member.

Take your seat.

Mr F ESSACK: I have defected!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Before you, hon Mokwele, let me allow the hon Gaehler to speak.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, I do not believe it’s a typing error.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Pardon?

Mr L B GAEHLER: I do not believe it’s a typing error.

I think the problem lies with the Questions Office and the presiding officers.

Because Question 134, as I said previously, was for written reply.

And the question that was for oral reply did not appear on the Question Paper.

So, there is a problem that you will need to address.

The House needs to be managed properly.

There is a problem.

It’s not a mistake, yet.


My question was for written reply and not for oral reply.

So, this mistake has happened for the second time today.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 137 of 177 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright.

Thank you very much for that, hon member.

I think we will take serious note of that one.

Hon Essack, please take your seat.


Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, like my learned colleague has already alluded to, we need to put on record that we have a challenge in terms of the running of this House.

In most instances, we find ourselves dealing with issues that are of a logistical nature.

This is not the first time.

Today, this problem is repeating itself.

Please put it on record that we have problems in the House – the problem of the running of the House, both administratively, and on the Whippery side.
It needs to be recorded so that we do not come across the same mistakes.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Well, as the presiding officer for today, I have acknowledged that it was a typing error and therefore, we continue.

Hon Faber, I want to move forward.

Mr W F FABER: House Chair, we can go forward, but then you must retract your ruling, because you have already ruled that we go on.

Now, if that was the ruling, then you have to now reverse your ruling.

That’s all I want to say.


20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 138 of 177 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright.

Perhaps, you didn’t hear me.

I said the hon Essack must continue with his follow-up question, meaning that we are allowing him to continue.

[Interjections.]

Mr F ESSACK: What does the House want?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, you are now out of order.

I allowed you to make your follow-up question.

Please, leave the hon Mokwele alone.


Mr F ESSACK: The problem is that the hon Nyambi ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, the hon Nyambi is quiet.

It’s the hon Mokwele.

[Interjections.]

Mr F ESSACK: Hon House Chair, thank you for the opportunity, but I was just going to clarify something before I asked my follow-up question.
With absolute and due respect and respect for the chair that you are occupying, by the fact that you allowed the Minister to answer the question in the first instance, right there, you should have realised that this was not an issue of a typographical error ... 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 139 of 177 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): There was no point of order.

That’s why I allowed the Minister.

Continue with your follow-up question, hon member.

Mr F ESSACK: Yes.
Mr F ESSACK: Yes.

If you look on the next page, I am on, again, under the same ... Let’s not go back there.

In any case, let me just do this one slowly so that the hon Minister can capture my follow-up question comfortably.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You have only two minutes.
Mr F ESSACK: Right, hon Minister: With the increased fruitless and wasteful expenditure linked to failed supply chain management procedures, as reported by the Auditor-General in his consolidated Financial Management Act and Public Finance Management Act reports, what steps have been implemented to combat this escalating corruption, referring to focus point 12?

Chairperson, I thank you.


The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for the Minister in The Presidency): House Chair, this is a completely new question.

May I read the question to you?

The question asks: How has the subsequent regression of the GDP growth impacted on the 2030 outcomes, given Operation Phakisa’s 4% growth per annum projection?

Which of the 13 focus areas will make achieving 2033 outcomes a challenge?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 140 of 177 So, all the issues raised by the member are so irrelevant.

The member can put that as a new question to the Minister.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Minister.

[Interjections.]

Hon Essack, please, I didn’t allow you to speak.

No, you are not allowed ... Mr F ESSACK: [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are continuing to speak and I did not allow you to speak, hon Essack.

Hon Essack!

Why the dialogue?


Mr F ESSACK: ...

[Inaudible.]

... and the 13 focus points.

And my question states I am referring to focus point 12.

What is so complicated about that, hon Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): The hon Minister gave us a response.

Can we continue?

[Interjections.]

She said it’s a new question.

Please, respect that.

According to the Minister, it is a new question.

[Interjections.]

Hon Faber, why are you standing?

Hon Essack, please take your seat.


The hon member has the floor.

[Laughter.]

Hon Essack, take your seat.

In the first place, I did not even allow you to speak.

You 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 141 of 177 just spoke without being recognised.

Hon Essack, please take your seat!

Hon Essack, take your seat.

Hon Essack, take your seat!

Mr F ESSACK: I am sitting ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are standing.

You are not sitting.

[Laughter.]

Thank you, hon Essack.


Hon Faber, let me allow the hon Ximbi to speak because he stood up before you did.

Take your seat.

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, I have a concern about this.

I would like to appeal to you, even if you have a ruling on this.

I would advise that we need to go and investigate whether the hon member has, indeed, asked a question of the department.

[Interjections.]

I think that will help.

Perhaps he is misleading, or he is taking a chance by being here.
Thank you, Chairperson.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Ximbi, I have made a ruling on that matter, please.

Let’s not take the decorum of this House to where it does not belong.

Hon Faber, why are you on your feet?

Mr W F FABER: House Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: The hon Essack had a very good follow-up question.
If the Minister cannot answer it, can we at least, then, ask the Minister whether the 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 142 of 177 relevant Minister can respond in a written reply to make it fair to the hon Essack?

I just don’t think it is fair for a Minister, if she doesn’t have the ability to answer the question, to say it’s a new question, because it is not fair to the question.

I really believe that we should, then, ask the Minister whether the relevant Minister could give us a written reply.
Then, we wouldn’t be defeating the objective.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Faber, it is very wrong of you to say that the hon Minister does not have the ability to answer the question.

The Minister stood up and even encouraged the member to put the question in writing.

So, can we continue?

We are now on Question 116, asked by the hon Essack.

What is the problem, hon Mokwele?

Why are you on your feet?


Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chair, I am about to tell you why I am on my feet The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Do you need a follow-up question?

Ms T J MOKWELE: No.

The Minister read from one page and didn’t go to the next page, where it refers to the supplementary question from 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 143 of 177 the hon Essack.

She read the first part of the question.

This question overlaps to the next page, Minister, as asked by the hon Essack.
So, if you don’t have the answer now, you must just apologise ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No.

No!

Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, it goes on there!

Just read the second part.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No.

We are listening to what you are saying ... Ms T J MOKWELE: That is the second part.

She says no, no, no, no.

It’s the second part of the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Oh, she is saying no, no, no?

Don’t listen to her.

Look at me.


Because I am the one who allowed you to speak, not the hon Minister.

[Interjections.]

Thank you very much for that, hon Mokwele.

Can I check with the hon Minister if, indeed, she did not check part two of the question?

Alright, allow the hon Minister to respond.

She is in the House.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The Minister in The Presidency): Chair, I think that when I don’t have glasses, I see even better.

Let me read it to you.


20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 144 of 177 Question 1 - and because I can’t see due to my age, I will put on the glasses to read: “How has the subsequent regression of the GDP growth impacted on the 2033 outcomes, given Operation Phakisa’s 4% growth per annum projection?” Is it not the same?

Question 2: “Which of the 13 focus areas make achieving the 2033 outcomes a challenge?” I have responded to that.

If you captured my answer, it did cover the question, as per the Question Paper.
The member can put the new question which arose - I still insist that it is a new question - in writing.

However, I also want to say I am highly competent enough.

That is why I respect this House to come and answer questions about the Ministry.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much.

I even ruled on that matter that you do have the ability.

Hon members, can we now continue to Question 116, asked by the hon F Essack from Mpumalanga?
You are on your feet, hon Essack, and I don’t know why.

Why are you standing, hon Essack?

We have ruled on the matter and we are now moving to the next question.

Why are you standing, hon Essack?

Mr F ESSACK: Hon House Chair, before you move to my next question, we have heard the response from the hon Minister.

She said very clearly, and I say this with due respect, that she is very “capable and well versed”.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 145 of 177 I point you to and refer you back - and it is in the Hansard: My question is, specifically, a follow-up question based on focus point 12.

My question covers the 13 focus points.

The hon Minister says she is more than capable of answering.

She even read out the question: Which of the 13 focus areas will make achieving the 2033 outcomes a challenge?

My follow-up question is based on focus point 12.


Allow the Minister to answer the question and if she is not capable, she must say so.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, you are now out of order.

We have ruled on the matter and you know how to complain.

If you aren’t satisfied, please, follow the correct procedure.

Now, we are on Question 116 to the hon Minister.

[Interjections.]

Order, hon members!

Order!

Order!

Sexual abuse of girls 116.


Mr F Essack (DA) asked the Minister of Women in The Presidency: Whether, with reference to the statement by the Deputy Minister of Social Development (details furnished), she has taken any steps to address the sexual abuse of vulnerable girls, particularly in the rural areas; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?

CO327E 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 146 of 177 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon members!

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Order, hon Mthimunye, hon Mokwele, hon Labuschagne, please, order!

Listen, hon members!

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, my department participated in the Girls’ Assembly and we are happy with the various interventions by the Department of Social Development.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Mthimunye, no!
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: The department has put in place part of the process, having identified the challenges faced by the girls, opening criminal cases on behalf of the girls who are pregnant or who gave birth whilst under the age of consent.

Counselling and the partnership with the Soul City Institute of Social Justice are happening, and loveLife and civil society organisations are engaged in empowering the girls with positive life skills.
We will continue working together with the Department of Social Development in the implementation of programmes that ensure that the girl-child is at school and also make sure that they are empowered.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, do you have a follow-up question?

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 147 of 177 Mr F ESSACK: Absolutely, of course!

Chairperson, I am on the floor again.

[Laughter.]


Hon Minister, I will go slowly, again, because I see you lose touch with the different focus points.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, hon Essack, we cannot allow that, no.

[Interjections.]

Mr F ESSACK: If you allow me to carry on, Chair, my follow-up question to the hon Minister, then, is: Is there a difference ... or perhaps you will tell me it’s another question, but let me just try ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack ... Mr F ESSACK: Is there a difference in the prevalence in pre-18 pregnancies between rural and urban areas?

In simple words, what I am basically saying is: What is the extent of the problem in other areas?

I have made it very easy now.

Thank you, Deputy Chair.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Chair.

May I make a plea on how we address each other?

May I plead for your intervention?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes, that is why I came in.

I asked him to stop what he was doing and to focus on ...

[Interjections.]

... no, the words that he was uttering.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 148 of 177 The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Can I say that the issue ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): What is your point of order?

Mr C HATTINGH: The member must sit.

Then I can put it, Chair.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Oh, “the “Minister”.

Not a member of this House.

Mr C HATTINGH: Yes.

Hon Chair, is it parliamentary to ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mthimunye!

Hon Mthimunye!

Mr C HATTINGH: Hey!

Gaan terug Vryburg toe, jy!

[You, go back to Vryburg!]

[Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are protected.

Don’t even listen to him.

[Laughter.]


Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to refer to a member – you did it and the Minister did it – as “he”, “he”, “he”, and not referring to “an hon member”?

You did it.

I heard it and don’t tell me you didn’t do it.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 149 of 177 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon member.

Hon Minister, the members in this House are hon members and not “he”, “he”, “he”, or “she”.

Thank you.

Continue.


[Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order!

Hon Mokwele, order!

[Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: I must acknowledge that the issue of young girls, both in urban and rural areas, on early pregnancies and on their being exposed to matters of giving birth to children before their time is a challenge for the country.
It is a matter that we, together with the Department of Social Development, are addressing.

Hence, part of what we will be doing is to roll out national dialogues and reach out to them, and also making sure that Thuthuzela centres are not only in the urban areas but that they go to the rural areas and make sure that young girls are able to be protected.

I also want to say that part of the programme is to make sure that young girls are at school instead of being in other places.
The challenge we are facing, as we know, is that this is a patriarchal society, which makes young girls vulnerable.

Hence, we 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 150 of 177 have the Department of Social Development, which is able to offer families support through various social grants in making sure that the young girls are at school and don’t continuously become victims of sexual abuse.
The various awareness programmes, which we run at different times, are also intended to reach out to the young girls and make sure that they can value and be educated to take care of their lives.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, I thank the hon Minister for the response and for forcing, or allowing, a girl-child to go to school.

For us, however, speaking without any action won’t result in anything that will benefit the very same person that we are concerned about.
So, I want to know whether your department will initiate legislation where we force ... ... bana go tsaya maikarabelo.

Puso e netefatsa jang gore bana bao ba ba tshwanetseng go ya sekolong ka dingwaga tse tshwanetseng ba a ya?

Ke eng seo lefapha le ka se dirang go netefatsa gore re a gatelela gore bana rona, segolobogolo bao ba leng kwa magaeng, ba ya kwa sekolong go bona thuto le go tokafatsa matshelo a bone?
Dilo tsa go tshwana le tshotlakako ka thobalano di ka fokotsega mo setšhabeng sa rona gonne ba tlabo ba na le kitso ya go itshireletsa.

Ke a leboga.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 151 of 177 TONA YA BASADI KWA KANTORONG YA MOPORESITENTE: Go bua ka kgang ya bana ba basetsana segolobogolo bao ba santseng ba gola e bile ba tsietsega bonolo, Lefapha la Thuto ya Motheo le na le mananeo ao e leng gore a gapeletsa bana gore ba tsene sekolo.
Go na le mekgatlo ya baagi e e leng teng kwa makeisheneng a rona le kwa magaeng e e dirang ka thata go leka gore ngwana wa mosetsana a tsene sekolo.

Re tshwanetse go tshwaragana!

Ke batla go gatelela seno, gore re kgone go tswelela pele, batsadi le bona ba tshwanetse go tsaya maikarabelo a bana ba bona go re kgontsha go dira mmogo go thusa bana ba basetsana.
Ga jaana bothata jo re na leng bone ke batsadi ba ba ithayang ba re sekolo ke sone se se tshwanetseng go ba phuthela bana; mme ba sa bone ba na le tshwanelo ya go ba tlhokomela.

Jaanong, nna jaaka leloko la Ntlo eno e e tlotlegang ke a re rona mmogo re tshwaraganeng, re thusaneng segolobogolo kwa magaeng le kwa makeisheneng gore bana ba rona ba ithute.

Lefapha la Thuto ya Motheo le dikampa tsa go fitlhelela setšhaba di kopanya bana ba basetsana le go ba ruta maitsholo.
Sa botlhokwa ke gore baagi ba tshwaragane go rotloetsa bana ba bone go ithuta.

Ke a leboga.

(Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[... children to take responsibility.

How does the government ensure that children who must attend school at the required age are able to attend?

What can the department do 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 152 of 177 to emphasise that our children, especially those in the rural areas, should attend school and improve their lives?
Things like sexual abuse would decrease in our society because they will have the knowledge to protect themselves.

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: In respect of the issue of girl-children who are still growing up and are easily deceived, the Department of Basic Education has programmes in place that ensure that children are forced to attend school.

There are also civic organisations in our townships and rural areas that work hard to try to ensure a girl-child attends school.
We have to work together!

I would like to emphasise that, in order for us to progress, the parents should also take responsibility for their children to make it possible to work together in helping a girl-child.

The challenge we currently have is that of parents who think that it is only the school that has the responsibility of taking care of and guiding their children.

They don’t see the need for them to help the school to achieve this goal.
As a member of this august House, I am appealing for us to work together and help each other, especially in the rural areas and the townships, to ensure that our children receive an education.

The Department of Basic Education and the outreach camps are uniting girl-children and teaching them how to behave in a good way.

The 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 153 of 177 important thing is for the communities to unite in encouraging their children to get an education.

Thank you.]
Thank you.]

Mr M RAYI: Hon House Chair, the question refers to the Deputy Minister of the Department of Social Development: One of the points that she raised with regard to the rural areas where there is sexual abuse is a particular municipality in the North West, Ratlou Local Municipality, I think, where about 3 000 underage girls have been sexually abused.
I wanted to check what sort of legal steps, other than advocacy for the underage girls, have been taken against the men who have done these horrible things.

With regard to advocacy, it could be that you did raise it, but that I was too slow to follow the interpretation.

What is the role of other departments - the Departments of Basic Education, Health, Women, and Social Development - in terms of collaboration with regard to advocacy?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, hon member, we are working with all the departments.
If you look at the government’s Integrated Programme of Action, developed through an interministerial committee and headed by the Department of Social Development, it is part of the programme where we are looking at advocacy and how best we can make sure that we reach out to all the corners of South Africa through advocacy, education, and 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 154 of 177 intervention - because when you do advocacy, you also have to come up with mechanisms of intervention.
What kind of interventions are we referring to, specifically when you refer to the challenges faced by this particular community when it comes to the young girls?

The Deputy Minister herself decided to go to the police stations to open cases of statutory rape against those particular individuals who had committed such crimes and destroyed the young girls’ lives.
We have agreed with the Department of Social Development to follow this up to make sure, especially in this particular area, that drastic steps or the necessary steps are taken against those men, who went out of their way to commit statutory rape.

Because, indeed, these are very, very young children.

Thank you.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I thank the hon Minister very much for the answers.

We know that it will take a combined effort by various departments to be able to handle this problem.
I would like to know if the Minister in The Presidency would be able to give us an undertaking that she will lobby and advocate the Department of Health to incentivise the training of forensic nurses to support and help them through the process in the Thuthuzela centres to increase the conviction rate of those who abuse these young women.

Thank you.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 155 of 177 The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, hon member, I think it’s not just about lobbying for Thuthuzela centres.
It is about looking at the holistic approach of the Thuthuzela centres as they are designed today and being able to ask what it is that needs to be done.

Because when you talk about Thuthuzela centres, it’s not only about the nurse.

We need social workers, we need the police, and we need the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, which are already there.

How do we increase this capacity?


In addition, it is one of the things we are looking at and asking how best we position them to ensure that they are effective; and the outcome, or the work that they are doing, is such that we can see a deterrence or a complete eradication of abuse - not only for girls, but for women at large, because that is its responsibility.
So, we are reviewing Thuthuzela centres to see how to also make sure that you don’t find them only in cities but that they also stretch to the rural areas in a way that all women can have the opportunity to access services.

Thank you.

Promotion of women socioeconomic empowerment 122.


Ms T Wana (ANC) asked the Minister of Women in The Presidency: 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 156 of 177 What are the (a) achievements of and (b) challenges faced by her department in its programme of (i) women empowerment and (ii) gender inequality (details furnished)?
CO336E The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, the department’s approach to the socioeconomic empowerment of women and the promotion of gender equality is to focus on producing valid data and information, such as The Status of Women in the South African Economy report, which was launched by the President in 2015.

This also formed the basis for the President’s directive to the economics cluster to put the inclusion of women at the centre of our plans, especially the Nine-Point Plan.
We also have outreach programmes to contribute to nation-building and social cohesion, such as the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children, the national dialogues in municipalities and sectors, monitoring and evaluating the implementation of the Integrated Programme of Action Addressing Violence Against Women and Children, and the implementation of the presidential directive.

That is what we are doing.


The major challenges we have experienced were the restructuring of the department to deliver on its new mandate and of being under- resourced.

This has consequences on our ability to attract the right skills set to drive the restructuring.

We are currently engaging 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 157 of 177 with National Treasury and the Department of Public Service and Administration on the issue.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Wana, do you have a follow-up question?

Ms T WANA: Yes, Chairperson, through you to the Minister, thank you for the answer.

My follow-up question is as follows: Looking at the promotions through socioeconomic empowerment, what percentage of disabled women have participated in this programme; and what percentage of women have been appointed in managerial positions in the Office of Women in the Presidency, in this department?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, you are free to bring the percentages if, perhaps, you do not have them.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, the department is at 3% when it comes to the employment of people living with a disability whom we employ on a regular basis.

We are also proud to say that our ICT person is someone who has challenges seeing.

So, we have empowered the people.


At the level of the department when it comes to women employed in senior management positions, if I am not wrong, we are at 67%.

Am I 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 158 of 177 right, director-general?

Yes, I am right.

We are at 67% and making sure we are compliant.

I would just like to say, broadly speaking, we have produced the report which gives us figures on the status of women in the various sectors.

However, I will not be able to go into those details now.
The challenge, shown recently, is that, in South Africa, whilst there is a growth in the space of more people going to school and university, only 3% of them are black Africans.

And we have seen the inequalities growing in our country, where 19% are made up of white men.

So, these are some of the issues, which we, as a department, are looking at breaking down to check the impact of these particular statistics and the inequalities when it comes to women empowerment in South Africa.
Mr M RAYI: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, we have domestic workers.

Most of them are women.

I wanted to find out: What is it that the department is doing to assist domestic workers, who are mainly women, in terms of socioeconomic empowerment; and to safeguard them against exploitation by their employers?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, when it comes to domestic workers, as we know, they fall under the Department of Labour, with which we are working.
However, we are not just looking at domestic workers, but at all women workers.

We have various programmes, which aim to empower women.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 159 of 177 Starting where we are now, together with the Department of Labour, we are looking at equal work for equal pay.
Also, when talking about the challenges faced by some domestic workers and working through the inspectorate of the Department of Labour, we continue to encourage them to register with the Department of Labour to make sure that their rights are not being undermined.

We continue to make sure that domestic workers are safe from the threats made against them in the work environment.
Working through various forums and izimbizo for domestic workers, our department, together with the Department of Labour, is committed to making sure that domestic workers know their rights and also know what they can and cannot do.

Key amongst all these is the awareness about their rights to report and to not allow abuse and violation of their rights by the employer.

Study on violence against women and children 144.


Ms T J Mokwele (EFF) asked the Minister of Women in The Presidency: Whether her department has implemented the recommendations on the study commissioned on violence against women and children in 2013 (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO365E 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 160 of 177 The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, the Study on Violence Against Women in South Africa provided a number of recommendations, not only for the department, but for policy makers, donors, programme implementers, and researchers.

The Department of Women has been implementing most of these recommendations through different programmes and activities.
We have, for example, rolled out interventions aimed at changing social norms around masculinity and gender relations, the use of violence, and enhancing the socioeconomic empowerment of women and girls.

These interventions include our programme of 365 days of activism, which also targets men, because unless we are able to bring men who are perpetrators of violence on board, we will not be able to change the patriarchal society of our country.
We work with civil society, traditional leaders, the religious fraternity, and rural people.

We have an interministerial committee, IMC, on the Integrated Programme of Action, which all departments, including the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster, are required to implement.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): We proceed to Question 127, asked by the hon G M Manopole.

Hon members, I am happy to inform you that the hon Chief Whip has entrusted this question to the hon Motara.
So, the hon Motara will be responsible for Question 127.

Over to you, hon Minister.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 161 of 177 Ms T J MOKWELE: I don’t know if I am correct, Chair.

You will tell me if I am out of order.

Initially, there was no arrangement made for the hon Manopole and Motara.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are covered, hon Motara.

Hon Mokwele, please, please, please!

Ms T J MOKWELE: I am calm.

I am calm and I don’t want to cause any fight.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Please, please, please.

Now, I want to check ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon members, allow the hon member to raise her question.

Ms T J MOKWELE: I want to check, Chair, whether proper arrangements were made for this one?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much.

There is a proper arrangement from the Table with the Chief Whip.

Hon Mokwele, no!

Don’t listen to him.

Listen to me.

I now have a proper arrangement and it is also on paper.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Let us continue, hon Minister.

Hon Chief Whip, thank you very much.

The other thing that I must say is that when we did not know who was going to represent the hon Motara, the Chief Whip was out.

Now, she is in the House.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 162 of 177 Women in Business Masterclass Series 127.
Ms G M Manopole (ANC) asked the Minister of Women in The Presidency: (1) How does the Women in Business Masterclass Series initiative effectively benefit women in South Africa; (2) whether the private sector is playing any role in the agenda to transform and enable women to fully participate in the economy; if not, why not; if so, what role?

CO341E The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Chairperson.
At the launch of the Women in Business Masterclass Series, which was initiated in October 2015, the department was invited to participate in helping to initiate black women, especially African women, to receive the requisite skills building and development through mentoring and coaching that will assist in increasing their board representation and participation, as well as providing them with opportunities to network and share best practices.
The pioneering role of women, which is played in leadership positions today, was one of the deliberations in this particular area where we have to make sure how best women in business should 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 163 of 177 interact with ordinary women, share their experiences, and mentor the young people.
As we speak, the private sector is very aware that without bringing on board all the other people, especially when it comes to the mentoring of young women, there will be no continuity when it comes to the empowerment of women.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Ms T MOTARA: Chairperson, to the Minister: In relation to your response, have you looked at the secondary economy for up-scaling those who are in business in the secondary economy - or the informal economy –to upscale their business acumen, which is derived from the informal sector, to be able to participate equally in the formal sector?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much for the question, hon member.
I think that is one of the key elements if we want to change South Africa to ensure that women participate fully.

We are working together with the Department of Small Business Development, especially when it comes to women, to make sure that they are not just at the level of informal settlements and small businesses, but that they can participate in both medium and macro businesses.
Some of the issues that we are looking at are when we get the report on the Nine-Point Plan, that is where we want to see the performance 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 164 of 177 of various departments when it comes to the empowerment of women.

That is going to be an interesting report because, in terms of the presidential directive, they have to tell us how they are empowering women.

I don’t think I want to make any suggestions.


We will have to wait to get that report, which will then inform us how we move forward.

Are we changing the patterns of the economy, or are we retaining them?

Are we getting women into the mainstream economy, or do they continue to be at the lower level of our economy?

So, those will be some of the issues when we get the report from our monitoring and evaluation division.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr M RAYI: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, during the Women’s Day celebrations, the Chairperson of the African Union, AU, indicated that there is an AU framework, called the Continental Framework, which has set aside 30% on procurement for women.

As South Africa is a member of the AU, what are we doing in terms of implementing that Continental Framework?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, I would like to thank the hon member.
I just want to say that before the AU could even start talking about quotas, South Africa had already done that.

I think, instead of talking about the AU, we need to talk about South Africa.

I think what we have to talk about is the 30% set- 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 165 of 177 aside on the affirmative procurement and how women are benefiting in that space.

When we talk about the 30% set-aside in the small businesses, how are women faring when it comes to that?
In addition, when we talk about broad-based black economic empowerment, BBBEE, how are women faring?

So, those are the issues we will be assessing when we get the report.

I’d also like to indicate that the tool of the African Union is not just about the 30% set-aside when it comes to the economy.

It is also that, as a country, we need to reach parity by 2020.

South Africa is one of those countries which are doing well when it comes to government, but we are lagging behind in the private sector.
We have got to look at mechanisms that will allow us to make sure that more women do participate in the economy.

Thank you.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Chair, Minister, thank you.

Does the department have a tool to measure the growth of women in the informal business sector to ensure that they move from the informal business sector?

[Interjections.]

Khawuyeke ukungxola mama.

Uthini mama?

Ndimde kaloku mna kwaye andifani nawe MaDlamini.

[Stop making a noise, ma’am.

What are you saying, ma’am?


Well, unlike you, Ms Dlamini, I am tall.]

Does the department have a tool to measure the growth of women in the informal sector to ensure that they move from informal business 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 166 of 177 to the formal sector in all departments?

Is that tool, if the department has one, properly monitored?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, we are working closely with the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation so that we don’t duplicate their tool.

In the department, we have our own monitoring and evaluation section, which has a monitoring tool.

That is the tool we are going to use in monitoring your economic cluster departments.

That is where we will realise if the programmes of the Department of Small Business Development are, indeed, empowering women.
Not only that, but is it also pushing them up, or keeping them at that level?

So, I would plead with the House to allow us to get to that space.

We are already asking departments to submit reports.

It is not an easy process, I must say.

Some departments say to us they want a partnership because they must go with us to go and do economic awareness of women because we are a department of awareness.

That is not what we are looking for.

We want to see to what extent women are empowered economically.
We want to see to what extent the lives of women are changing and also, bringing back their dignity.

Because if you are able to fend for yourself, it is not just about empowerment, it is also about self-assertiveness.

It’s also about self-confidence in being able to carry and take your life forward.

Thank you.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 167 of 177 Mr M M CHABANGU: Thank you, Chair, Minister.
My simple question is: What is it that the government is doing in order to empower women, particularly, those from the rural areas?

Because really, you will find that the rural women are suffering a lot.

They still expect their husbands to go and work in the mines and put bread on the table.

Many of them have registered their co-operatives but there is nothing that is actually happening.

Thank you, Minister.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): That is a maiden question, Minister.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon mzala [cousin].

I am happy to have a mzala [cousin].

[Laughter.]

Chairperson, I think the question of the empowerment of rural women in a country, as a whole, is a big challenge, not just when it comes to economic empowerment.

It is also about access to education to change their lives.

There is a lot which we need to do.

For instance, we are saying that part of the programme of Operation Phakisa in various areas must not focus on the cities.
It has to go out to the rural areas.

When you look at the Oceans Economy in KwaZulu-Natal, it can’t be an Oceans Economy around Durban, or eThekwini, when we know that the coastal area is so rural.

So, the programmes by various departments, including the Department of Environmental Affairs, must train women and get young women to go to 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 168 of 177 school, making sure that whatever opportunities prevail in those areas are given to women.
When it comes to the question you are raising about co-operatives, I would say what government needs to do is to make sure that, instead of just creating co-operatives for the sake of co-operatives, we create co-operatives which are tangible, but with a clear programme, and also say what it is that must empower women.

We have good co- operatives, which are successful.

We have seen them in some of the places.

We can copy and emulate some of them.


However, we need to be very creative in making sure we respond and address those issues of women, especially in the rural areas, if we want to change our economy.

Thank you.

Female genital mutilation 113.


Mr C Hattingh (DA) asked the Minister of Women in The Presidency: Whether she has been informed of alleged female genital mutilation that is taking place in the provinces; if so, (a) which provinces are mostly affected and (b) what steps has her department taken to address this matter?
CO323E The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, neither the department nor I have been informed of any allegations of female 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 169 of 177 genital mutilation in any of South Africa’s provinces.

I also want to say in South Africa, female genital mutilation is prohibited or it’s outlawed.

We, as a country, don’t have such practices.

Furthermore, let me state that the World Health Organisation, WHO, has listed all the countries which practise female genital mutilation.
South Africa is not listed because we do not practise that.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I have access to their international list and I will forward the list to the Minister so that she can reconsider her response.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Do you want to respond, hon Minister?

Alright.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Chair.

He needs to respond.

Yes.


I will welcome the list which talks about that, but I must also emphasise that South Africa, as a country, does not practise that.

I would appreciate it if the hon member could give me the list, with examples.

I also want to urge the hon member to remember that genital mutilation is outlawed.

Why do you, as a lawmaker, allow it to happen?

Why did you not report it and make sure that the law enforcement of this country deals with that?

It is outlawed.
It is outlawed.

We have 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 170 of 177 signed various conventions and international protocols against this practice because we, as South Africans, do not practise it and it does not exist.

I would love to know whether he, as an hon member, reported it.

We all have an obligation as citizens, but also, especially as lawmakers.

When we see anything which goes against the law, we must report it.
We do not wait to come here and raise it because we have an obligation to the voters to make sure that we protect them.

Thank you.

Department reconfigured/restructured 126.

Mr M T Mhlanga (ANC) asked the Minister of Women in The Presidency: Whether her department has been reconfigured and restructured in order to contribute meaningfully to the achievement of the National Development Plan (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO340E The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, the department has restructured and done concurrence which, as I indicated earlier on, was approved by the Department of Public Service and Administration.

What we have also done, hon Mhlanga ... it is just that I have decided that it might assist to see how we have 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 171 of 177 reconfigured the department.
So, I want to give it to you so that you can see how we have done in making sure that, as a new structure which was approved by the Department of Public Service and Administration, together with Treasury, we have reconfigured the department, moving forward.

Thank you very much.

Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, I will, of course, accept the response from the Minister but further, perhaps, try to ask a follow-up question.
You have some morosophist here who says that the department does not respond to the call as per its mandate.

[Laughter.]

I would really appreciate it if the Minister could further allude to the establishment of the institutional desk in our legislatures and our municipalities in this regard.

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, hon member, patriarchy comes in many forms and reflects itself in many ways.
That is why when you talk about transformation, you also need transformation of the mind.

The RDP of the mind and soul becomes necessary in these particular areas for us to be able to move forward because any other department can exist, but when it comes to women, it will be seen as sub, or less important.
What we need to do, as you indicated, hon member, is to be responsible for monitoring and ensuring that progress is made in ensuring that women are integrated in all sectors of our society - not only integrated, but that women are able to advance themselves 20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 172 of 177 and compete, like any other person in our country.

I am proud to say that we are seeing young women, especially at universities, rising better than boys do in making sure that they can perform.
So, that is what we need to see happening in our country.

There is a need for this department, but I also want to underline that it cannot be a department which is as big as the Department of Social Development is, because our responsibility is completely different.

You need a department with high-level skills able to, so to say, whip the department, other departments, and the private sector into shape, to ensure that women are able to move forward.

And the restructuring intends to achieve that.


Thank you.

Mr M RAYI: Hon Chair, hon Minister, firstly we need to congratulate women for fighting and for ensuring that there is a fully fledged department that focuses on them.

Perhaps, we need to take it a step further by also ensuring that, at provincial and local government levels, we do have these departments - and not just a directorate of special programmes, where you will have women as part of the special programmes.
We also need to have a fully fledged department at provincial level with a political champion in the form of an MEC.

[Interjections.]

Can I be protected, hon Chair?

Anyway, I have made my point.

Thank you, House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order!

Order, hon member from KwaZulu-Natal!

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 173 of 177 The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, I forgot to make just one point.
Currently, in terms of the national gender machinery, departments are supposed to have sections, as you correctly said, of focus points for gender advancement in the interests of women.

However, what we have discovered — because we have done a national analysis — is that it is not being taken seriously.

The first problem is that it is given at a very junior level where there is no authority.

So, it becomes like a process of a keep-me- busy kind of a situation.

The department is reviewing that.


We are engaging the Department of Public Service and Administration to make sure that the level is, at least, at chief director level, but not only there.

It must not be a stand-alone.

We are saying it must be in the Office of a director-general and should form part of the director-general’s performance agreement.

So, when you assess the director-general, you do so on the process, programmes, and progress she or he has made when it comes to the empowerment of women.
It is not easy.

Inyusa umnqantsa kancinci kodwa sinethemba lokuba iza kulunga nangona ingalulanga nje.

Kuyafuneka abantu baqonde ukuba xa ezi zinto ziphakanyiswa, ziye zibekelwe ecaleni zingahoywa.

(Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 174 of 177 [It is a bit difficult, but we are hopeful that, ultimately, it is going to come right.

People should understand that when these issues are raised, they are sometimes put aside and ignored.]
This is exactly what is happening, currently.

However, if we want to make sure that women are empowered, we mainstream that and let the director-general take responsibility for ensuring that the director- general sticks to the performance agreement.

This will enable us to see whether he is performing in making sure that women are empowered in that particular sector.

And not only in government.


If it is the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, it means that, in the private sector, we also want to see progress being made by the DTI in changing the lives of women.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Chair, let me start by commending the Minister for what she has done, given the reality of the triple challenges of our past that all of us know.
My question is in relation to, perhaps, appointing me as an ambassador to always, once in a month, come to your boardroom with some of those in this House that we see still need an RDP of the soul and mind.

[Laughter.]

Would you be available to always come and do that, in terms of your schedule, Minister?

Thank you.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 175 of 177 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Nyambi, that is a new question, but it will depend on the hon Minister if, perhaps, she will be available.
[Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, I love the challenge, and I would insist on not only yourself, but on more of you, because we really need men to transform society.

I would say it must not only be you.

If more men can come up as ambassadors for us in fighting gender-based violence in our country, we will see young women being able to go to school and also see more women and equality, as enshrined in our Constitution, happening.
Because you must know that that is one of the keys.

I love the challenge and I welcome it, but I want to see more men coming forward.

I am ready and we can even start now.

[Applause.]

Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo ohloniphekile uma ngabe sekuthiwa into iyenzeka usungaqala ngoNyambi ...

[Uhleko.]

... UNyambi.

Uma ususibheka sonke lapha eNdlini nguyena ongaqala ngaye lowaya.

Ngempela ngempela ungaqalaphi, ungaqala laphaya?

[Uhleko.]
[Uhleko.]

UNGQONGQOSHE WABESIFAZANE EHHOVISI LIKAMONGAMELI: Ngibonga kakhulu kulungu elihloniphekile uMnu Khawula kodwa angifuni yena kuphela nginifuna nonke [Uhleko.]

Nonke nize.

Ngingabonga kakhulu nawe uma ungaba owesibili.

(Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 176 of 177 [Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, if this thing is happening, you can start with the hon Nyambi ...

[Laughter.]

... hon Nyambi.

If you look at us in this House, it is he that you can start with.
Really, really, where can you start, can you start there?

[Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon member Khawula, but I don’t want only him, I want all of you.

[Laughter.]

You must all come.

I would be very grateful if you could be the second one.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you for the response, hon Minister.

The hon Khawula and all the other members can see the ability you have to respond to all the questions.
We are now coming to the end, but I would like to say, even to the Ministers who were here, that they really did so well in this House.

I also want to thank the hon members for all the participation that they have revealed to me today.

I was so touched when you were fighting for your rights.

All of you were standing, and I am happy that you are really ready to work for the people of South Africa and also to represent them well.

Hon Minister, the nation was watching and has seen you.
Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

The Council adjourned at 18:27.

20 SEPTEMBER 2016 PAGE: 177 of 177 __________ ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS Please click on the following link to access the relevant Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports for this day.

https://www.parliament.gov.za/parliamentary-papers?sorts[date]=-1