Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698942912733.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 1 THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ The House met at 10:01 The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
RULE 290 (2)(A) TO BE SUSPENDED (Draft Resolution) The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows: That the House suspends Rule 290(2)(a), which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee‘ s report was tabled, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 2 for the purposes of conducting the Second Reading debate today on the Appropriation Bill [B 5 - 2017] Agreed to.
APPROPRIATION BILL (Consideration of report of Standing Committee on Appropriations) The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, we move that the Report be adopted by this House.

Agreed to.

APPROPRIATION BILL (First Reading debate) Ms Y N PHOSA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, the Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, hon members, dignitaries on the public gallery, ladies and gentlemen.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 3 Hon Deputy Speaker, It is my privilege to make a few remarks as I table the Appropriations Bill ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

Hon members.

Ms Y N PHOSA: ... for 2017.


Before I define the Appropriation Bill, allow me to remind fellow South Africans that the ANC-led government is still committed to building a society free from exploitation, discrimination and exclusion from the economy of our mother land, South Africa, create equal opportunities for all and a caring state that looks after the vulnerable.
The developmental vision of the ANC-led government in this second phase of transition from the nightmare called apartheid is rapid transformation of the society to create an equal society with low unemployment levels, lower poverty levels and transformation of the ownership patterns of the past.

Today, I am tabling the report on behalf of the hard working Standing Committee on Appropriations.
The UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 4 Appropriation Bill is the legislation that provides for appropriation of money by Parliament from the National Revenue Fund in terms of section 213 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa 1996 and section 26 of the Public Finance Management Act 1999.

I would like to emphasise that spending of this money is subject to the Public Finance Management Act and the provisions of the Appropriation Bill.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, just one moment.

Hon members, can you please lower your voices because you are too loud.

Thank you very much.

Go ahead hon member.

Ms Y N PHOSA: Deputy Speaker, the 2017 Appropriation Bill, therefore, cannot be just another budget because these are extraordinary times.
It comes at a time when South Africa finds itself in a strained political environment that has exacerbated what was an already muted economic outlook and the big fallout of the current political climate is the investment ratings downgrade by Standard and Poor‘s and Fitch rating agencies in April 2017, and the latest pronouncement on the technical UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 5 recession by Statistics SA due to the gross domestic product, GDP, that contracted by 0,7% in the first quarter of 2017.
As confirmed by the Financial and Fiscal Commission‘s submission to the committee, the 2017 Appropriations Bill maintains fiscal discipline with the total real growth of allocations growing marginally by 0,5% - key drivers of growth being higher education and training, basic education and health.

Observations are that this shows government‘s commitment as per Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, to ensuring quality education and a long healthy life for all South Africans.
Other observations are that national departments have, to a large extent, addressed the problem of under spending and the area of improvement with national department is demonstration of effectiveness and efficiency of resource usage.

Hon members, broad consultation with key stakeholders and public hearings were conducted by the standing committee on the 2017 Appropriation Bill.
A robust and constructive UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 6 hearing session was held in Khayelitsha in Cape Town to solicit inputs of ordinary citizens on the Appropriation Bill.

From this exercise, I can confidently say that the 2017 Appropriation Bill lays the basis for implementation for radical socioeconomic transformation programmes for the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period and beyond.
The 2017 Appropriation Bill is a tool for inclusive growth aimed at placing the economy on a qualitatively different path that ensures more rapid sustainable growth, higher investment, increased employment, reduced inequality and the deracialisation of the economy, which are bold commitments outlined in the Freedom Chatter and the manifesto of the ANC-led government.
A stronger and more inclusive growth will require improving the quality of education and training to meet the needs of a modern economy and mobilising private and public investment to help diversify the economy and also UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 7 lowering of policy uncertainty and improvement in investor confidence.
The 2017 appropriation budget is pro-poor and redistributes income to the rural and urban poor, the working families, black people, women, the youth, people with disability and business.

We commend National Treasury for realising the need to allocate R591 million to social workers employment so that the poor‘s welfare needs can be attended to.

Without infrastructure like roads, rail, ports, water and sanitation, power, communication, health and education, the economy cannot grow.
Over the 2017-18 MTEF, consolidated infrastructure amounts to R970 billion.

The committee recommends intensified oversight over large tenders and those that go over many years by the Office of the Chief Procurement Officer.

Where fraud and corruption is discovered, act decisively to avoid hampering of inclusive growth and development.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 8 The committee is concerned about late payment of service providers.
Payment of invoices within 30 days should be linked to the performance contract of those responsible for these payments to bring a turnaround in this area of concern.

With regards to education, post-School education and training is aligned to the National Development Plan, NDP, goals and contributes to outcome 5 which is a skilled and capable work-force to support an inclusive growth path.
The committee supports operational and capital funding for the two new universities and emphasize the need to adequately fund the sector of Technical Vocational Education and Training, TVET, and Community Education and Training, CET.
Hon Deputy Speaker, in the 2017 budget, basic education accounts for 15% of national consolidated budget and the learners with intellectual disabilities have also been allocated a conditional grant to increase their access to education - which is one way of treating them with UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 9 dignity and also observing their human rights to education.
With regards to health, the key spending priorities for 2017-18 are expansion of the HIV/Aids program with a budget allocation of R17 billion.

We can report to this august House that with 3,5 million people receiving antiretrovirals, government is making good progress towards meeting its MTSF delivery target of 5,1 million.
May I take this opportunity to thank my fellow members of the Standing Committee on Appropriations for the long hours that they have put into the work supporting the deliberations of the committee.

The ANC supports the Appropriation bill Mr D J MAYNIER: Deputy Speaker, we have the powers in terms of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, Act 9 of 2009, to rewrite the Appropriations Bill within four months of the beginning of 2017-18.
That is why we proposed 405 amendments to the Appropriations Bill, in the amount of R10,8 billion to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 10 fund six proposals in 2017-18.
Our budget proposals were aimed at creating jobs by allocating an additional R1,5 billion to provide 213 000 more work opportunities in the Expanded Public Works Programme, to fighting crime by allocating an additional R688 million to establish a stand-alone specialised unit to fight drug related crime, to support poor students by allocating an additional R3,5 billion to provide financial assistance to 63 000 more students who are enrolled or who would like to enrol, especially at technical and vocational training colleges, to fighting corruption by allocating an additional R174 million to boost the investigative capacity of the Public Protector, to assisting the poor by allocating an additional R4,5 billion to prevent malnutrition among children and to assist people battling high food prices, and to combating cross-border crime allocating an additional R483 million to fund about 945 more soldiers to safeguard the landward borders of South Africa.
The amendments we proposed were budget neutral and would have been funded by reprioritising expenditure within the existing budget, and would have had no effect on the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 11 fiscal deficit in 2017-18 and yet our budget proposals were not supported by the ANC, not because they did not have merit, and not because they could not be funded, but because it was and I quote: "too difficult to amend the budget," that is according to the ANC.
But of course the ANC supported an allocation of R1,3 billion for a ministerial jet; R1,4 billion for ministerial bodyguards; and R89 million for ministerial mansions, without thinking once about the 9,3 million people who do not have jobs or have given up looking for jobs in South Africa.

So, let the unemployed know that the ANC would not support the DA‘s proposal to create jobs by allocating an additional R1,5 billion to provide 213 000 more work opportunities under the Expanded Public Works Programme.
Let the victims of drug related crime know that the ANC would not support the DA‘s proposal to fight crime by allocating an additional R688 million to establish a stand-alone specialised unit to fight drug related crime.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 12 Let poor students know that the ANC would not support the DA‘s proposal to support students by allocating an additional R3,5 billion to provide financial assistance to 63 000 more poor students.
Let the victims of corruption know that the ANC would not support the DA‘s proposal to fight corruption by allocating an additional R174 million to support the investigative capacity of the Public Protector.

Let mothers with children who suffer from malnutrition, and people who are hungry know that the ANC would not support the DA‘s proposal to prevent malnutrition and hunger by allocating an additional R4,5 billion to social grants.
Let the victims of cross-border crime know that the ANC would not support the DA‘s proposal to allocate an additional R483 million to fund 945 more soldiers to safeguard our borders in South Africa.

We have to ask ourselves why the ANC did not support budget proposals to help South Africa.
Well, the answer is simple, the ANC don‘t care about the unemployed, about the victims of crime, about poor students, about corruption, about children with malnutrition, about UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 13 people who are hungry, and about safeguarding our borders and they should be ashamed.

I thank you.
I thank you.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Hon Deputy Speaker, the EFF rejects the Appropriation Bill and all those who are going to stand here and say they support this bill do it because it is for service delivery to our people are misguided.

As long as we have a captured President, a captured government and a captured state entities to approve this appropriation bill is signing a blank cheque to the Guptas house.
Anyone who disputes these facts with all the emails, the houses and the briefcases like this one of Minister of Finance, Malusi Gigaba, and Ministers enjoying expensive trips in Dubai, they are doing that because they want to capture more.

Nevertheless, because we have turned this institution into a rubber stamp institution, - despite legislation such as the money bill which empowers us as legislature to take the appropriation bill as a proposal by Treasury and make changes before it is passed.
Budgets are approved without consideration and that is because Parliament has no capacity to interrogate, make UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 14 meaningful input and approve budgets that are meant to lives of our people.

What is worse is that, we are passing a bill for which departments are already spending the money.

A clear example of how Parliament processes are out of touch with reality.
The appropriation bill before the House only deal with 45% of the nationally raised revenue, while other funds will be spent in through municipal and local government.

The bill in a way is supposed to set out specific amounts and conditions under which money can be spent.

We are not going to deal with the low level detail, instead what we will do is to raise the issue of Parliament budget.
For this Parliament to work, for our democracy to work, for Parliament to be able to hold the executive accountable and perform its oversight role, we have to think differently of how we approve allocation of Parliament.

This is why the whole state was captured in front of this Parliament and many others before it.

Year in year out we learn about wasteful expenditure and all we do is to get shocked.

Ah!

Did they steal such money!

Ah!

We are following the money.


Yes, you are UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 15 following the money, the ANC is following the money straight to the Gupta compound.

This is so because Parliament cannot do proper oversight with the limited resources it had.

What is even more concerning is that, with the budget Parliament receive, as a legislature we cannot make our own laws instead we wait for the executive to bring their own laws that they want us to comment on and pass.
If the executive has no interest or appetite to pass certain legislation, you will never see them in these benches.

The reason why they are here today is because they want this appropriation bill to be passed.

The National Treasury has no interest to change the legislation concerning banks and house repossession and people who have paid for their houses for more than 15 years just to lose it and be sold for R10.
We are waiting for you, Minister Gigaba, on your radical economic transformation to change this law of repossession of people‘s houses.

Parliament must conduct a proper assessment of its constitutional obligation to understand the financial UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 16 resources required to run this institution.
The idea must not be to go with a begging bowl to the National Treasury or the captured President, instead we must take the appropriation bill as it is and make necessary adjustments before it is passed.

It is only then that we will pass a well considered appropriation bill and we will be able to conduct the oversight in all other Budget Votes that were allocated money with their entities in accordance with the appropriation bill.

The EFF objects to this appropriation bill with the contempt it deserve.
We will not allow the Guptas to forever come and loot our country.

We will protect it with whatever we have.

Ms S J NKOMO: Our Deputy Speaker, I must state it on the onset that the colour which I am wearing I bought it about ten years back, which was before EFF was conceived.
After due and diligent consideration by the committee on the Bill before us as well as the public hearings for the engagement with the citizenry and the workshops held on the bill, the IFP is satisfied that the objectives and spending items as set out by the national departments are aligned with the NDP, National Development Plan.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 17 However, alignment - as we all know it - is not a guarantee of implementation but merely a first step in the process.

Marking the 20th year in which government has published a three-year budget and with a MTSF, Medium Term Strategic Framework, premised upon the fourteen priority outcomes that are linked to the realisation of the 2030 goals of the NDP, we are moving towards these goals.

The question is though, are we moving fast enough?


Are we adequately addressing transformation and the alleviation of poverty, inequality and vulnerability?

Definitely, not.

We would submit that this government is failing very short of off the mark.

Deputy Speaker, government remains light on implementation and this is, broadly speaking, mainly because of the breakdown at national, provincial and local government levels in service delivery.
This is aggravated by the loss of skills in our departments, corruption, incompetence and general mismanagement.

All, the while being overshadowed by the some spectra of state capture which sees department budgets as nothing other than a fast track to obscene wealth at the expense of the taxpayers and the general citizenry.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 18 Deputy Speaker, no amount of planning or alignment with future goals will ever translate into socioeconomic transformation for the people of South Africa if the budgets of our national departments are seen as nothing more than cash dispensing ATMs, automatic teller machines, for the state capture apparatus.
Governance improvement at our SOEs, state-owned enterprises, will go a long way towards stemming this tide of corruption which must be rooted out at its source.

With Stats SA officially announcing that this country has now fallen into recession, impetus through funding must be provided to the sectors that are showing negative growth.

In this instance, especially our manufacturing and trades sectors require a reprioritisation in terms of the tax incentives.

The IFP supports this Bill.

Thank you.


[Time Expired.]

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you Deputy Speaker.

Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon members in this House and our distinguished guests ...

[Laughter.]

... the NFP supports the Appropriation Bill tabled here today.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 19 The purpose of the Bill tabled here today is to ultimately ensure that we provide the citizens of South Africa with a better quality of life, to uplift the poorest of the poor and to address the high levels of inequality in the country, amongst others.

Despite the process, despite the division of revenue to address priorities, a better quality of life to most South Africans remains a dream.
A matter of grave concern is that while there are some of the best mechanisms and processes in place to ensure accountability, this once again clearly is not the case.

A very great percentage of our budget is allocated to the compensation of employees whose sole responsibility is to serve the interests of the people of this country.

The question is, are we getting maximum output?

The answer is clearly, no.


We have three spheres of government, all with the added responsibility of ensuring that strategic plans are implemented, resources are adequately budgeted for, the delivery of services is maximised and accountability is UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 20 prioritised at all times.

However, once again this is not the case.

The rich continue to get richer, whilst the poor get poorer by the day.
South Africa has one of the highest levels of inequality in the world.

Our children are raped and murdered daily, our people continue to be deprived of the basic needs — as enshrined in the Constitution — of quality housing, decent water and sanitation and a safe environment.

Yet, once again this is not the case.

So the question is, who should take responsibility for this?

As the NFP it is our opinion to clearly outline the causes of our failure to improve the lives of our people.
This House which makes the laws and which at times has become a circus with Members of Parliament, MPs, spending more time on the podium grandstanding, and blaming, insulting and abusing each other ...

[Interjections.]

... is one of the root causes of our failure.

There is a perception out there that MPs are at a higher level than those on the ground, and in our opinion it is actually the other way round.
Corruption, wasteful and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 21 fruitless expenditure, large amounts of money spent on overseas travel — like the Premier of the Western Cape‘s R1,2 million in taking her husband for a holiday visit overseas — is estimated to cost taxpayers ... an amount of approximately R200 billion a year ... is being lost through fraud, corruption, maladministration ... not getting value for money.
Unless measures are put in place to ensure accountability and consequences, the future is very bleak.

The NFP supports the Bill tabled here today.

[Applause.]

IsiXhosa: Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Ndiza kuthi kuNjingalwazi Khubisa akwenze ube lilungu le-ANC.

English: The Appropriation Bill underpins government‘s expenditure decisions.

Let me start by saying that the UDM supports the Appropriation Bill.
IsiXhosa: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 22 ... Sekela Somlomo, uyayibona i-ANC ukuba ithi ngoku ndilisela ... English: ... and to call it to order.

This however occurs in the context of a South African economy that is now officially in recession for the first time since 2009.
This is due to the fact that, as we all know, gross domestic product, GDP, growth figures from Statistics SA show that our economy contracted by 0,7% in the first quarter, thus shrinking by 0,3% in the fourth quarter of last year.

This also occurs against the backdrop of the decision by the World Bank to cut its growth focus for our economy in 2017 from 1,1% down to 0,6% due to policy uncertainty.
In this regard, it means that over the next few years we are going to have limited resources with which to deliver services to our people.

Therefore, one cannot overemphasise the importance of efficiency in the system and effective political oversight.
We concur with those who argue that in light of what has been happening in the country with regard to wasteful and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 23 irregular expenditure, it is important that Parliament as an institution is adequately resourced to ensure that corruption and wasteful expenditure ... IsiXhosa: ... ziyaliwa.
English: House Chair, I beg your pardon, Deputy Speaker, we agree with those who believe that there seems to be inadequate mechanisms which seek to ensure that there is effective and efficient spending of allocations for the Education Infrastructure Grant and the School Infrastructure Backlogs Grant.

This results in a situation where, as even these stakeholders argue, funds that are not spent are sent back to the National Treasury.
In other words, as is the case with other departments, the poor are punished for the failure of government to either employ people with the right skills to deliver services to the people or to build the requisite capacity and mechanisms to ensure that service delivery does indeed take place.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 24 House Chair, I beg your pardon, Deputy Speaker I think... IsiXhosa: ... ndiza kukuthintsha namhlanje.
English: We have consistently stated our concern around the role that state-owned enterprises, SOEs, in their current form play in our economy.

They tend to be a drain on the fiscus rather than contributing meaningfully to the developmental agenda of infrastructure-led growth in our country.

It concerns us greatly that these SOEs now continue not only to be crippled by issues of bad leadership but completely disregard principles of corporate governance in how they run these institutions.
As we support this Bill ... IsiXhosa: ... sithi lo mcimbi worhwaphilizo ... English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 25 ... and issues of policy uncertainty that remain unresolved should be attended to going forward.

IsiXhosa: ... kuba asinazo izixhobo zokudlala.

Umbutho i-UDM iyaxhasa.

Siyanibulela.

Oh!

Aninqandi namhlanje kuba ndiyanixhasa.

English: Adv A D ALBERTS: Thank you Deputy Speaker.
Minister, after all the exhilarating events of the past few months we are now at the irrationally exuberant place you can only feel when you stand at the precipice of a cliff without any ropes, harness or even a parachute.

So what is left to be said when a man is about to jump off the fiscal cliff taking a country and every poor soul with him?

Even worse, what do you say after he has actually jumped?

I searched high and low, and at last found a book with all the answers.
It‘s an exciting new book called, Reasons to vote ANC.

You should read it Minister.

There UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 26 are some interesting notes that I wish to highlight.

On page 18 you will find interesting notes about, nothing.

If you turn to page 66 you will find explanations about, nothing.

The reasons to vote ANC reach its crescendo on page 200 where you will find absolutely, nothing.
It is a riveting read as it closely approximates the promises kept by the ANC, with a slight difference in that the book actually exhibits more content than the achievements of the ANC government.

Afrikaans: Duidelik is daar nie te veel wat mens hier kan byvoeg nie.

Dit is in elk geval seker dat wat ook al die opposisie sê nie ernstig opgeneem sal word nie.
Ons kan kom met bydraes oor ekonomiese ontwikkeling, fiskale beleid, of werkskepping vir al die armes in die land, maar ons besef net dat ons ons asem mors.

Dit bring my by ‘n tweede boek wat ek jare gelede ontdek het, en veral toe die agb President gesê het dat die afdanking van Ministers Nene en Gordhan nie ‘n effek op die markte gehad het nie.

Dat in effek die ANC sy hande in onskuld kan was oor die stand van die ekonomie.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 27 English: So, back to the second book of importance.

It is clear that whatever truths we pronounce today, the President‘s men and women are afoot on their own chosen path of pleasure and plunder, and will not be swayed by this debate.

It is thus so appropriate to introduce the seminal work of Prof Harry Frankfurt of Princeton University, The New York Times bestseller titled, On Bullshit.
He philosophically explains that bullshit is worse than mere lies.

At least liars realise that they are setting themselves up against the truth.

A bullshitter on the other hand pays no attention to the truth.

It is immaterial.

Such a person or organisation will for instance continue to ...

[Inaudible.]

... people control the economy ...

[Inaudible.]

Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order: Deputy Speaker, it is not parliamentary to raise vulgar language like bullshit in the House.
Can you please rule on this?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Alberts, I do think your vocabulary is pretty rich.

Can you please desist from continuing to use it?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 28 Adv A D ALBERTS: It is an academic treatise written by a Princeton professor.

However, I will call it bull dust.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, no.

Even if it is academic, the language is offensive.

It‘s not okay.

Adv A D ALBERTS: So, you have taken the point.


Such a person or organisation will for instance continue to believe that all white people control the economy while the facts supposes that it‘s a patently false lie.

They will believe that firing a highly regarded Finance Minister will not harm the economy.

They will believe that they can claw themselves out of a recession by way of incantations made by Harry Potter, Bell Pottinger, ... calling it radical economic transformation.
Yet, we know this will not change.

The only thing that will change is if you look at history and you learn lessons, become wise or accept the fate in the end that President Zuma is merely the pastor presiding over the ANC‘s funeral.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Alberts, I‘d like to let you know that we will come back to your use of that language.
We do not want members to slip into using language that may UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 29 come back to haunt us, especially if we also go into our own languages.

It will not be acceptable to do that.

I plead with you to withdraw that.

Then we will proceed to do that, if you don‘t want us to come back to you.

Adv A D ALBERTS: I will withdraw it but I must state that it is an academic treatise.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, unconditionally member; just unconditionally.

Adv A D ALBERTS: But it is an academic treatise.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member?

Adv A D ALBERTS: You can throw me out.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I‘m not going to throw you out.

I just want you to ... Adv A D ALBERTS: I‘m waiting for you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 30 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, withdraw!
Adv A D ALBERTS: You can take my salary.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do you want to withdraw?

Adv A D ALBERTS: Deputy Speaker, I replaced the word later on with bull dust.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you saying?

Adv A D ALBERTS: I said in my speech later on I replaced the word ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon member, withdraw.

Withdraw.

[Interjections.]

Order hon members, order!

Withdraw hon member.

I gave you an opportunity.

You should‘ve taken it.


Adv A D ALBERTS: I will withdraw the word bullshit ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 31 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, that‘s enough.

Don‘t go any further; don‘t go any further.

Hon Carter?

No, no, sorry, hon Manana?

I‘m sorry; my apologies.

Go ahead hon member.


Ms M N S MANANA: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, Ministers and Deputy Minsters present, hon members, distinguished guests, let me begin by stating that it is the duty of government to protect and provide a supportive environment to the poor and the vulnerable segment of society.
It is in this context that the drafters of our Constitution included what we refer to as the bill of rights which includes the right for children, access to food, clean water, health and education.

Let me begin by stating that it is the duty of government to protect, and provide a supportive environment to the poor and the vulnerable segment of society.
It is in this context that the drafters of our Constitution included what we refer to as the Bill of Rights, which includes the right of children, and access to food, clean water, health and education.

Anywhere in the world, the budget UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 32 is the appropriate mechanism through which the government achieves such goals.

The Appropriation Bill reflects political and economic choices.
Pro-poor macroeconomic planning requires going beyond the usual growth and stability focus.

It requires a nexus between stability, growth, sustainable development and employment creation.

It is the Appropriation Bill which taken together with the Division of Revenue, is the instrument to deliver on ANC Policies and Priorities that our people have endorsed when it voted for the ANC.
The Appropriation Bill is used to guide planning and resource allocation and for monitoring and evaluation of new initiatives.

It is in this context that I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the 2017 Appropriation Bill, which contains a range of redistributive allocations with a strong bias towards the poor and working class families.

The budget contained in the 2017 Appropriations is not only redistributive, but it is a pro-poor budget at its best.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 33 This is a pro-poor budget in a sense that it channels resources to departments and programmes charged with the responsibility of providing social services to the poorest segment of our citizens.

The importance of a redistributive and pro-poor budget cannot be over- emphasised in light of the challenging economic environment that we see in South Africa and the rest of the world.
Critically the Appropriation can be gauged by its redistributive nature by the following indicators, its contribution to social services; Infrastructure; Post- school education and training in the form of University subsidies; Financial Aid Scheme (NSFAS); and Public works programmes that contribute directly to employment.

To sustain the social wage and avoid sharp reversals in public spending a proposed mix of revenue and expenditure measures was presented in the February budget.
Let me outline concrete reasons for saying this budget is pro- poor: Social Development UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 34 First and foremost, the 2017 Appropriation Bill allocates the largest share of R160,7 billion to the Department of Social Development to ensure a sustained commitment of providing the necessary social safety-net for the unemployed and destitute households.
The allocation to the Department of Social Development accounts for 21 per cent of the total appropriation for 2017, and this is indicative of the governments genuine commitment to protecting the poor and destitute.

This has never been urgent given the ailing global and domestic economic growth performance and the fact that at the end of the first quarter of 2017 14 O00 South Africans lost their jobs in the informal sector.
Education (Basic Education and Higher Education & Training) The 2017 Appropriation Bill also allocates significant resources to the education sector.

The Department of Higher Education and Training receives R523 billion, which is the fifth largest allocation and accounts for 6.8 per cent of the total 2017 appropriation.
The Department of Basic Education on the other hand receives UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 35 an allocation of R23.4 billion which is the 10"‗ largest allocation and accounts for 3.1 percent of the total 2017 Appropriation.

This means Basic Education and Higher Education & Training have a combined allocation of R75.7 billion.

Hon.

Members, by any standard, this is commendable.


We welcome the R7.3 billion allocated towards funding the shortfall at university and TVET colleges resulting from the no fee increase that applies to households with incomes less than R600 thousand.

We further welcome the additional allocation of R7.7 billion to NSFAS.
As part of a redistributive agenda, a significant share of the budget for Higher Education and Training will go towards the construction of hostels, lecture halls and laboratories in the in two newly established Universities: University of Mpumalanga in the Mpumalanga Province and Sol Plaatjie University in the Northern Cape.

This means children from these two provinces will no longer be compelled to travel to other provinces to receive education and training.
This yet another evidence of a redistributive and pro-poor budget.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 36 During public hearings on the 2017 Appropriation Bill in Khayelitsha, the Equal Education eloquently welcomed the increased funding for school infrastructure.
Just to cite, the Equal Education mentioned that it ―welcomes the 2017/18 budget to the infrastructure grants as signalling a renewed commitment to fixing South Africa's schools.‖ We share the same sentiment with Equal Education, and we encourage these movements to work with Parliament in exploring ways of ensuring that the budget serves communities as economic, effective and efficient as possible.
The quantum of funding required for expanding the post school education and training sector cannot be accommodated by the budget process alone.

This requires partnership with the private sector.
A number of processes including the Presidential Commission of inquiry on Higher Education; Presidential Task Team on Funding Poor Students and the ―Missing middle"; and interdepartmental Task Team on Financing options for the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 37 Post School Education and Training system, are currently underway to determine how higher education expenditure can be sufficiently financed, Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and Rural Development and Land Reform.
The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries as well as the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform are central to the agenda of radical transformation.

The two departments are also instrumental in the provision and maintenance of food production and food security.

It is against this background that we welcome and applaud the fact that these two departments receive a combined allocation of R16.9 billion.
The budget allocated to these two sectors will go a long way in ensuring that no families go to bed without food.

These two sectors are in greater need for ﬁnancial injection following the recent drought, which remains pervasive in the Western Cape Province Recent data from Statistics South Africa shows that the agriculture sector lost 44 O00 jobs in the first quarter of 2017.
The financial investment emanating from the 2017 Appropriation Bill will undoubtedly go a long UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 38 way towards reversing this unfortunate situation in such a critical sector to most South Africans.

Spending on agriculture, rural development and land reform over the MTEF going forward amounts to nearly R30 billion by 2019/20.
Programmes in this area aim to provide approximately 435 000 subsistence and smallholder farmers with equipment, fencing, fertilisers and seedlings, improved extension services and repairs to flood- damaged infrastructure.

In addition, Department of Rural Development and Land Reform is to intensify the One Household One Hectare initiative to provide land to the landless and fast-track the establishment of agri-parks in district municipalities.
On SMME‘s There are additional allocations over the medium term for the enterprise incubator programme to encourage private sector partnerships to support incubators for small enterprises and the implementation of the national informal business scheme aimed at growing the informal sector.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 39 Adopting a pro-poor and redistributive budget like the 2017 Appropriation Bill is a giant step to the attainment of economic transformation and prosperity for all South Africans.

The role of the Standing Committee on Appropriations would be to support and guide departments during the implementation of all the allocations contained in the 2017 Appropriation Bill.

I Thank You!
I Thank You!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Van Damme and the members along your row there who brought beverages in cups into the House, we don‘t want to speculate.

Rule 64(g) encourages us not to use cups.

Please don‘t do that.

Just accept beverages from service officers in the House.

You are not allowed to volunteer, for your own sake, to bring that stuff in.

So, please do not do that.

[Interjections.]

Yes.

Go ahead, hon Carter.


Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, at the dawn of democracy there was an acknowledgment that there was an interdependence, an umbilical cord, between economic growth and transformation - that meaningful reconstruction and development would only be possible if UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 40 the economy was firmly placed on a path of high and sustainable growth.

A major thrust of our annual Appropriation Bill is transformative.
It is substantially aimed at redistributing resources to the indigent and poor, and trying to break the factors that perpetuate the poverty and inequality.

However, when economic growth stagnates or, even worse, shrinks and goes recessionary, revenue collection constricts.

In addition, the ability to progressively appropriate resources for the benefit of the people is threatened, whilst needs and reliance on the state increase.
The reality is that the greatest threat to our stability as a nation, apart from our rogue President and his shadow elite, is poor economic growth – and there is a direct link between the two.

The Mandela and Mbeki eras were characterised by rising levels of growth, conservative fiscal management and a commitment to the development of a capable and responsible state.
The disastrous ANC-Zuma years have UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 41 seen the opposite: an irrational change in economic policy based on snake-oil ideologies that have destroyed investor confidence, stagnated our economy and increased unemployment; and reckless fiscal spending that has increased our debt levels.
Worse than this, there has been a devious plot to betray the nation‘s trust, to displace our constitutional order and replace it with a shadowy set of institutions - a shadow state, a mafia state – in order to thieve, loot, rape and plunder the resources of our land.

Part of this plot includes the capture of our Treasury, replacing a competent and trustworthy team of political executives with, at best, more pliant operatives.
The fact is that you, Mr Minister, are just as implicated in the capture of our state-owned enterprises, SOEs, in the creation of a mafia state, in the betrayal of our nation.

Your ability to act in the best interests of our nation, to carry out the fiduciary responsibilities as Minister of Finance, is questionable.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 42 The chickens have now come home to roost.

No matter which way you spin it or dress it, the emperor is naked.
Mr B A RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I rise on Rule 85(2).

If the hon member has any allegations against the Minister of Finance, she must bring them by way of a substantive motion, and not by using innuendo.

Whatever report has not been confirmed as it is.

[Interjections.]

So, she must come with a substantive motion.

Thank you.

Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, I can repeat it.

The Minister‘s ability to act ... but they can‘t take my time; it was a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, no, the time is kept.

Ms D CARTER: Can I continue?

And now the chickens ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Listen.

Hon member, what are you saying?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 43 Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, what I was saying ...

I can repeat what I have said.

The Minister‘s ability to act in best interests of our nation, to carry out the fiduciary responsibilities as Minister of Finance, is questionable.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Carter, your earlier reference stated that the Minister is implicated in that.

Can you please withdraw that?

[Interjections.]

Ms D CARTER: I can‘t withdraw that, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright.

Alright.

Why not?

Ms D CARTER: I can‘t withdraw it!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright, if you don‘t, you cannot proceed with your speech.

If you refuse to withdraw, then you can‘t, hon member.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Ms D CARTER: We also have the irrational and corrupt actions of a rogue President.

[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 44 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon Carter.

You can‘t.

You can‘t.

You can‘t.

Ms D CARTER: A rogue President, a rogue Ministry include a rogue Minister.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can‘t.

I am switching off your microphone.

Hon Swart?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I‘ve consulted with the members of my party with whom you remonstrated from the Chair under Rule 64(g).

This deals with photographs and reading newspapers, etc.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: And eating.

[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No.

Well, I think they were drinking out of a cup, not eating ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

... but I wondered if you would please cast your eye onto that very dangerous object behind the hon Motsoaledi in the ANC benches there.

[Interjections.]

Would you investigate ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 45 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

Order!

What‘s the dangerous weapon?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... well, whether it‘s acceptable to drink out of glass bottles, like the one that‘s on the table behind the hon Motsoaledi in the ANC benches.

So, I‘m unsure if your left eye is a little more roving than your right eye, but I think that the same must apply in the ANC benches.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon members.

If members are drinking anything other than water, that‘s out of order.
We shouldn‘t be drinking anything here ...

[Interjections.]

... or bringing ... No!

You can‘t ... hon members, you cannot bring cups into the House and violate those Rules.

It applies across the board.

It does not choose anybody else.

It is those that I saw bringing cups in here.

[Interjections.]

Hon Steenhuisen, you can‘t tell me ...

[Interjections.]

Yes.

Hon members ... What?

[Interjections.]

Order, hon members!

Hon Swart, please proceed.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 46 Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP considers this ... IsiZulu: Ms M S KHAWULA: Uxolo, uxolo, iphuzu elikhalimayo.

Leliya bhodlela libukeka linogavini phakathi.

Wena sisuka nawe eThekwini ugavini lowaya.

[Ihlombe.]

English: The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, how do you know the content of that thing?

[Interjections.]

Hon Minister, what are you rising on?


The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, I rise on the same matter: It‘s not ―gavini‖, it‘s medication.

[Laughter.]

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please!

Let‘s not go there, hon members.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, if it is indeed medication, would you be able to find out whether it is an antidote to electoral losses that is being taken on the ANC benches?

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 47 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please.

This is a serious matter.

Hon member, don‘t imply that members are drinking anything other than water!

I thought it‘s tea or coffee there.

So, please, let‘s not do that, hon members.

[Interjections.]

Alright, alright, alright, hon members, you will have a break later this evening and then you can drink anything you want to – as long as it‘s not in the House.
Proceed, hon member.

Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, I am just having a drink of water, thank you very much.

[Laughter.]

The ACDP considers this Appropriation Bill against the background of the speech by the Minister of Finance early in February.

We then already saw serious challenges at that stage and we said that the item that is increasing the quickest is the debt service costs.
Since then, we have, obviously, seen the dramatic events of what we termed ―the reckless midnight Cabinet reshuffle‖ at the end of March, the firing of Minister Gordhan, of course, and the appointment of the new Minister.

This was at a time when we saw promising green UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 48 shoots of the economic recovery earlier in the year strengthening the economy.
Of course, we lost that and we are now in a technical recession with the various ratings agencies looking closely at our performance.

Since then, we have also had the revelations contained in the Public Protector‘s report.

We have seen the Brian Molefe scandal.

We have seen the SA Council of Churches‘ Unburdening Report, the academics‘ report, and now, of course, tens of thousands of leaked e-mails.

As I have said before, my concern is this.


Whilst we from the ACDP fully support a parliamentary ad hoc committee into state capture, as well as the President‘s announcement of a judicial enquiry, the challenge is that these aspects take a lot of time.

Furthermore, there is nothing to prevent us, at this stage, and to ensure that law-enforcement agencies, in particular, the Hawks and the National Prosecuting Authority, institute action on that overwhelming evidence that exists at this moment.
How difficult can it be to investigate an allegation that the former Deputy Minister of Finance, Mr Jonas, was UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 49 invited to Saxonwold, offered a bribe, which he turned down, and left the premises?

A first-year law student could investigate that and prosecute.

Yet, we see no prosecution in that regard - whilst there was an over- keenness to prosecute the former Minister of Finance.
Whilst we appreciate that this whole Budget is R1,4 trillion to R1,5 trillion and a lot of funds are spent correctly, when it comes to the state capture of our SOEs, obviously this presents a serious challenge to our fiscal consolidation path and we need to go beyond mere talk about enquiries and about ad hoc committees of Parliament.

We need to institute criminal action and prosecution on the prima facie evidence that exists at this time.
From our side, in view of these serious allegations and in view of the state of capture that exists, we from the ACDP will not support this Budget Vote.

I thank you.

Dr M J FIGG: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the intention of the Bill is to appropriate money from the National Revenue UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 50 Fund for the requirements of the state in the 2017-18 financial year to votes for the purposes specified.
The Bill is tabled at a time when South Africa finds itself in an environment of low economic activity with adverse effects from the recent credit rating downgrades.

The main impact of the ratings downgrade will result in an increase in government‘s fastest increasing expenditure item, debt service costs.

There will also be growing strains and risks on public finances.

Tax revenue projections have been revised downwards and the Wage Bill continues to place upward pressure on the expenditure ceiling.
Debt service costs amount to R162 billion in 2017-18 and continue to be the fastest growing element of the budget.

For every R1 collected in tax 13cents must be diverted to service debt.

Government debt increased from 24% of GDP in 2009 to 51% currently and the growth of debt servicing is increasing at 10% per annum.

Despite tax increases announced last year, government expects to collect R30 billion less in revenue in 2016-17 — the largest underperformance since 2009.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 51 The public sector Wage Bill is expected to account for 35,5% of government spending in the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF increasingly crowding out other areas of expenditure.

The budget is under significant risk due to lower economic growth, more people are out of work, irregular expenditure is increasing and the financial position of state-owned companies has deteriorated.
Economic growth declined to 0,3% in 2016, far below the required 5,4% to create jobs.

This reflects the 5th consecutive year of slowing growth and the lowest annual growth rate since 2009.

We are currently in a recession.

This slow rate of growth will not be sufficient to markedly reduce unemployment, poverty and inequality.
The Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC forecast that in order to make up the backlog, the economy would have to grow by 7,2% for the remaining 13 years to meet the 2030 NDP target.

The unemployment rate peaked at a 14 year high to 27,7% particularly for the youth and the unskilled.

We have 9,3 million people without jobs and rising.

Joblessness UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 52 among 18 to 29 year olds averaged 43% in the 4th of 2016.
Slow employment growth negatively affects household consumption.

Irregular expenditure by national and provincial entities increased to R46,4 billion in 2016 while fruitless and wasteful expenditure and unauthorized expenditure was R1,4 billion and R925 million respectively.
Although there is a sound legal framework that governs state-owned companies; operational inefficiencies, poor procurement practices, weak corporate governance and failure to abide by fiduciary obligations have plagued several companies that are now in serious financial difficulty.

State-owned companies are required to be financially sustainable.

But in 2015-16, the combined return on equity of the 16 largest companies was 0,8%.
Government borrows at 8% and provides capital to state- owned companies generating a lower return on equity.

This represents value lost to the public finances.

The Bill itself contains a number of allocations that only an out of touch government will table in this House.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 53 Firstly, there is a skewed allocation of resources.

Higher Education receives only 6,82%, Health 5.56%, Human Settlements 4,36% and Public Works 0,9%.
Secondly, the percentage of administration costs is unreasonably higher for the smaller departments compared to bigger departments.

Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, COGTA with a total allocation of R78,4 billion, for example spent only 0,3% on administration while Economic Development with a total allocation of R797 million spent 10,1%, Small Business Development 8,8% on administration and Trade and Industry 7,9%.
Further analysis of administration costs without transfers shows that Social Development spent 40,1%, Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, 34,3%, Health, 15.7%.

And if consultants‘ costs are removed from Health, then the administration costs are 20,2%.
We cannot support the Bill because while Section 3 states an amount that is listed as specifically and exclusively appropriated may be used only for the purpose intended, unless the amount or purpose is amended by Parliament but Section 5 states despite Section 3, the Minister may approve that unspent funds appropriated for compensation UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 54 of employees be used for the payment of severance or exit packages.
The DA proposed 405 amendments, in the amount of R10,8 billion, to the Bill to fund six proposals to create jobs, fight crime, support poor students, fight corruption, assist the poor and safeguard our borders, which were not supported by the committee for practical reasons.

In a failing economy like ours it cannot be business as usual.

Leadership is needed but the ANC government lacks competent leadership with skills to make proper economic decisions.
The ANC deploys its own illiterate comrades to the positions that they are not qualified for.

Finally I‘m looking forward to the unveiling of the ANC tombstone in 2019.

This is what is going to look like - Rest in peace the ANC - Born 1994 — Died 2019 - Age 25 years.

I thank you.

[Applause.]

Ms S C N SHOPE-SITHOLE: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Members of Parliament, the leadership of the ANC, all leaderships of all the parties in the House.

Absheni.

Ninjani?
Absheni.

Ninjani?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 55 Hon Deputy Speaker, I want to tell you that I support this Budget Vote 100% as a disciplined member of the ANC.

I ‗m saying this because I have heard the opposition, they are always quoting Oliver Tambo.

They are always quoting Nelson Mandela, so it means we are together.

We are going to fight against the misuse of funds together.

Of course, it is very good to be blaming the government all the time.
It is very good to be blaming an individual member but the total blame is on this legislature, this Parliament.

We are not doing what we are supposed to do.

You are not doing what you are supposed to do.

We are wasting time; others are marching out, while others are making noise.

We don‘t deal with the business at the right time.

That is very unfortunate.

Anyway, I‘m pleading with every one of you that we look after this budget.

There must be no wastage.


We must all be prepared to work harder and go out and not sit in Parliament.

Fortunately, our committee had an experiment on this.

We went to Khayelitsha.

We conducted a public hearing there.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 56 We were able to hear a lot of suffering.

There is suffering in the people of Khayelitsha, in the Western Cape.
We are still going to EThekwini but in Khayelitsha – you know Deputy Speaker I ‗m one person who does not work from newspapers.

I work from facts.

We have established the facts that there is suffering in Khayelitsha.

We have had a lot of newspaper reports of different things including the fact that Treasury is not doing what it is supposed to do.

There is a lot of money that was wasted.

You know, we didn‘t want to take it from the reports of newspapers or the radio.
We called a meeting of the departments and we have verified the facts that indeed a lot of money has gone to waste.

I am pleading with the Minister to actually take it the way he has taken it, very calm, not to rush into conclusions but investigate properly because the danger of rushing into conclusions is that you may miss the bigger picture.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 57 I was actually impressed by what you said when you came to our committee.
You said, and I quote: The problem is that we keep on saying that.

We talk about the historically disadvantaged people as if their situation has changed.

These historically disadvantaged people are still disadvantaged economically as we are speaking today.

So it is up to you Minister to take action.

What is the action?

You must check your legislation, talk to your other colleagues like the DTI, and make laws user- friendly to the junior, poorer, rural people of our country.
When you make your purchases as government, please buy from the poorer of the poor.

Don‘t just ignore them.

Procurement must always be favouring South African goods.

[Applause.]

We must make it – that is the only way we are going to get there.

I remember one thing that happened 1991.

I was a newly elected Treasurer of the Eastern Transvaal, and we had to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 58 go to Arusha in Tanzania under Comrade Nkobi.
The delegation was led by uBaba uSisulu.

Then they said to us, when everybody in the ANC says Viva ANC, don‘t do that, you must look at the money.

We were worried - what is this, because we were not in exile.

We were here.

We were worried but uBaba Sisulu readdressed.

He said to me, Sheila, uBaba Nkobi when he says - when everybody in the ANC says Viva ANC you must look at the money.

It doesn‘t mean that you don‘t care about the ANC.


It means there are enough people to say Viva ANC, but your task is to look after the money.

So I am saying to you Comrade Gigaba, your task is to look after the coffers of the Republic of South Africa.

[Applause.]

When every one of us would be very busy with our conferences and our lists, that does not affect you.

You must put your focus on the monies of the Republic of South Africa.

That is what is going to help us.


I want to come back to the rot in the Treasury, in the Integrated Financial Management System.

The first thing is, I really try to understand what happened, and I said UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 59 we must understand that it was difficult for those people to move from various systems like the MS-DOS and Lotus 1- 2-3 to combine all the systems together, maybe that is why it took so long.
However, I ask myself, in that long period what was going into that – how did we get our – eh!

– Our – sss - what do you call them – what do you call - in that long period what ...

[Interjection.]

[Time expired.]

[Applause.]

Mr N T GODI: House Chair, comrades and hon members ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members.

Mr N T GODI: ... the APC support the Appropriation Bill.
We do so, however, with a number of concerns that require constant and sustained focus by government and especially Treasury.

Whilst acknowledging the restributive‘s land of the Bill, especially in relation to rural and poor communities, we are concerned about accountability later on by departments, managing budgets and Annual Performance Plans, APPs, matching goals and expenditure UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 60 levels.
We must see allocation and expenditure as one continual.

Allocation alone can no longer be a high water mark.

Expenditure trends, management and accountability must be the key.

One area that has direct impact in relation to allocation is what I would call the financial health of departments.

I am talking here of departments that have accruals higher than the money at hand.

This means that as we allocate, there is already a deficit.
This combined with commitments and liabilities create a dim picture in some departments, for instance, at the end of 2015-16, the department of Water and Sanitation surrendered R189 million to the fiscus, and yet it had accruals of R500 million.

Alarmingly, we were informed by our comrades in the portfolio last week that the accruals have now tripled to about R1,5 billion.

This deterioration is alarming.

The question is, has this been taken into account by Treasury?
If not, we are witnessing the collapse of a department before our eyes.

The rot in Water and Sanitation can not be ignored and need urgent attention.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 61 The provision of urgently needed infrastructure in rural areas is in jeopardy.

The department was dismissed by the portfolio committee yesterday for incoherent responses and they will be appearing before Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, in two weeks time.
We call upon Cabinet to give this looming crisis urgent attention.

As we pass this Bill, the APC makes a bold call upon Ministers to stay away from procurement issues, stay away from tenders, let managers manage and be held accountable.

I want to say comrade Minister of Finance that on the Integrated Finance Management System, we will be calling you as Scopa, I think in the next three weeks or so, so that we can talk to those issues.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr A R MCLOUGHLIN: Hon House Chair, every year before the debate on the Appropriations Bill, the Appropriations Committee receives submissions from stakeholders and commentators.

One of these is the Public Service Commission, PSC.
Now, the PSC unlike government Ministers who are always at pains to guild whatever wilted UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 62 budgetary lily they happen to be presenting on, is inclined to tell the truth about the performance or the lack therefore of most of the hapless South African government Ministries.
In summary, the PSC provided the committee with information indicating that in the 2015-16 financial year, government departments spent an average of 98,68% of their budgets achieving only 67,68% of their targets.

This means that if there is no improvement, this year will see our government departments spending R247,9 billion, achieving absolutely nothing.
I have to mention that there is one single shining exception to this rule being the department of Public Service and Administration that scored 98% of its targets whilst spending only 93% of its budget.

Well done.

The problem I have with this is twofold: Firstly, what became of all the money that was spent achieving nothing?
Perhaps its busy turning Dubai into the building site that Minister Sisulu wishes to convert South Africa into and secondly, all of the wasted money was cheerfully UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 63 appropriated by the Standing Committee on Appropriations.

How does this happen?

Simply because the Standing Committee on Appropriations is such a name only, the real appropriation is done by Cabinet and the Treasury.
The committee is merely a rubberstamp to facilitate the legalised theft that is being perpetrated upon the citizens of South Africa.

When the DA takes control in 2019, one of the things that will undergo real change is the appropriation of public monies, which we will do in a manner that is in obedience to our Constitution, aligned with the rule of law and in accord with the DA‘s core values of freedom, fairness and opportunity.

The DA rejects this Bill.

[Applause.]


Mr N E GCWABAZA: Hon House Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers and hon members, let me declare upfront that the ANC supports the Appropriations Bill 2017.

[Applause.]

While the Bill maintains fiscal discipline in order to stabilise the debt, the budget allocation has sustained overall growth of 0,5% in the 2017 Appropriations Bill which is higher than the 2016-17 financial year.
This growth in budget allocation, evident UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 64 in basic education, higher education, health and social grants demonstrates the ANC‘s commitment to improve access to quality education, long and healthy lives of all South Africans, access to clean water and sanitation and to reducing poverty and inequality.

Over the past 23 year of ANC-led government great progress has taken place in our country.
For instance, the national budget has increased tenfold from R100 billion at the dawn of democracy in 1994, to R1,4 trillion today.

For two successive tax years, we have collected over R1 trillion in taxes which demonstrate an improvement in the efficiency of the country‘s tax administration.

This is one of the major achievements of the ANC government.

Of significant importance too is the equitable distribution of tax collected across all sectors of society through various social services.
The economy has done reasonably well over the 23 year period of ANC-led government, notwithstanding the current low ebb in the country‘s economic situation.

Over the said period, the recapitalisation of the Johannesburg UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 65 Stock Exchange, JSE, has risen from R700 billion to R5 trillion.

It must be stated though that this accumulation of wealth has not benefitted the majority.
The majority of black people and Africans, in particular, have remained excluded from the mainstream economic participation.

It is for this reason that the ANC has committed itself and all our people to radical socioeconomic transformation and land expropriation, in order to ensure an equitable redistribution of wealth and property for the benefit of all South African regardless of class, race and gender.
While we maintain fiscal discipline, we must take advantage of conditions that support consumer and business confidence.

These conditions include, among others, improvements in the price of commodities and an improving global economic outlook which should boost exports and contribute to our gross domestic product.

Notwithstanding poor performance in manufacturing and trade reported in the past two days, the current account deficit has declined due to low levels of imports.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 66 Another important positive development is that the implementation of the minimum wage will reduce poverty levels of six million workers and their households.

The stronger currency and lower consumer inflation are a positive year on year contribution to consumer confidence which is likely to increase consumption and gross domestic product, GDP, growth.
The Appropriations Bill was tabled in February 2017, and was duly referred to the Standing Committee on Appropriations.

Four months later, the DA pulls a political stunt and presents an alternative budget disguised as amendments of the 2017 Appropriations Bill just two weeks ago ...

[Interjections.]

... that was very disingenuous, DA.


What the DA wanted to achieve was a delay in the passing of this Bill in order to suspend government spending and ensure that our people don‘t receive services that they deserve ...

[Interjections.]

... yes, that is what you wanted to achieve and you have failed because the committee has rejected your alternative budget.

You must deal with your own problems because you have many.
You must deal with your premier, Madam Helen Zille, who has refused to support organisations here in the Western UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 67 Cape and who have been wanting deeper investigations...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order, hon members!

Order!

Mr N E GCWABAZA: ... deeper investigations into the death of 20 children ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order, hon members!
Mr N E GCWABAZA: ... largely taking place in the Cape Flats.

She has refused because you, DA, don‘t care about the lives of black people and coloured people particularly here in the Western Cape.

[Applause.]

You must deal with your own corruption.

R1,1 billion spent by your Madam Zille and her husband in overseas trips.

Your metro mayor has done the same thing ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order, hon members!

Order!
Order!

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 68 Mr N E GCWABAZA: ... squandered millions of rand in overseas trips.

Deal with that.

You shouted down hon Minister Brown when she moved for the investigations of R23 billion worth of contract ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order, hon members!

Order!

Mr N E GCWABAZA: ...in Eskom.

Why did you shout her down?

What are you hiding?

Who are you protecting?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order, hon members!

Order!

Mr N E GCWABAZA: You must, therefore, learn to deal with your own issues.

You have failed to handle your racist tweets of your Madam Helen Zille.

Only yesterday you suspended her, only to cover up.

Now the EFF ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order, hon members!
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 69 Mr N E GCWABAZA: The EFF, I am sad to say that the member who has very consistently attended meetings of the study group has suddenly absented herself from the committee meetings.

Therefore, she comes here and rejects the budget.

She doesn‘t know what she is talking about because she has not been participating in the processes.

All you came here to do ...

[Interjections.]

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Gcwabaza, take your seat, please.

Why are you rising, hon member?

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Chairperson, I am correcting the member because I have changed committees.

Now, I am on the Committee of Trade and Industry because I do not want to go to that useless committee and always approve and rubberstamp things.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Thank you.

Take your seat, hon member.

Hon Gcwabaza, you may continue.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 70 Mr N E GCWABAZA: All the EFF came here to do was to reject the budget because they have no interest in the wellbeing of our people.

You have no interest in ensuring that ...

[Interjections.]

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Order, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Gcwabaza, will you take your seat, please?

Why are you rising, hon member?


Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Chairperson, I want to correct the member on Rule 81.

We are not rubberstamps and we are not here to rubberstamp and looting of the ANC.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): No, hon member, that is not the point of order.

Take your seat, please.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: We are not going to rubberstamp your looting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Please, take your seat.

Hon Gcwabaza, will you wrap-up now, please?


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 71 Mr N E GCWABAZA: The EFF has no interest of ensuring that our people ...

[Interjections.]

Ms H O HLOPHE: On a point of order, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Gcwabaza, take your seat, please.

Why are you rising, hon member?

Ms H O HLOPHE: On Rule 63, Chairperson.


I just want to allude that that member go and read that Rule 63 because as Members of Parliament we are allowed to come and make speeches and our freedom of speech to be protected or you shouldn‘t be misguided.

Don‘t do what you don‘t want to do Mr Gcwabaza because we have the greatest respect for you.

Don‘t do that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Thank you, hon member.

Take your seat now.

Please, take your seat.


Hon Gcwabaza, will you now conclude, please.

Mr N E GCWABAZA: The EFF has no interest in programmes that seek to eliminate poverty, unemployment and the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 72 participation ... economy ...

[Interjections.]

I thank you, House Chairperson.

Ms M S KHAWULA: Point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Gcwabaza, just before you leave the podium take your seat, please.
Why are rising, hon member?

IsiZulu: 11:25:14 Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, nginephuzu lokukhalima okuphambukayo.

Bengifuna ukwazi ukuthi uyayazi into azokhuluma ngayo lana noma uzofuna nathi sibe yingxenye [part] yenkohlakalo [corruption] le abayiyona?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon member, that is not a point of order, take your seat.

Thank you, hon Gcwabaza.

I now call upon the hon Minister of Finance.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chairperson, hon Speaker, hon members, we are considering this year‘s Appropriation Bill under difficult circumstances.

The economy‘s contraction by 0.7% in the quarter is a setback, and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 73 introduces significant downward bias to the GDP growth estimates communicated in the 2017 budget review, which projected growth at 1.3%.
Whilst the IMF recently revised our 2017 growth projections down to 1%, the World Bank has revised their GDP projections to 0.6% in 2017 from 1.1%.

Several favourable factors supportive of domestic growth remain in place; however, aggregate growth in 2017 will likely be reined in by the contraction in the first quarter.

The current growth rate, if sustained, will lead to further decline in GDP per capita and revenue, threatening the affordability of our planned expenditure.
This puts more pressure on us as government to intensify our growth programme and improve confidence as a matter of urgency.

However, we cannot afford to become despondent in the wake of these developments; we must remain positive and must remain singularly focused on growing the economy and creating prospects for it to get out of the low grow path.

[Interjections.]

Mr M S MBHATA: Chairperson, on a point of order.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 74 The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Cabinet has committed to provide clarity and certainty ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Minister, will you take a seat please.

Why are you rising, hon member?

Mr M S MBHATA: Is the Minister able to disclose the author of his speech?

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon member why are you rising?
In terms of which Rule are you rising?

Take your seat please.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Cabinet has committed to provide clarity and certainty on key policy areas aimed at unlocking growth in the economy within the next few weeks.

We should soon be announcing concrete timelines for the finalisation of these policy processes which will result in the provision of the clarity sought by the markets.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 75 We appreciate the issues raised by credit ratings agencies and we commit to a speedy response.

We remain committed to inclusive growth and economic transformation as outlined in the NDP, the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, and the 9 point plan.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Minister, just take your seat please, I want to hear why this ho member is rising.

Mr N M PAULSEN: Would the hon Minister of suits take a question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): No, there is no Minister of suits, please be respectful to one another, hon members.

Name calling is not a prerogative of one member only.

Let us not go that way.

Mr N M PAULSEN: Would the Minister of Finance take a question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Minister, are you prepared to take a question?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 76 The MINISTER OF FINANCE: No.
In the midst of a persistently challenging economic environment, government remains committed to containing the budget deficit and stabilising public debt, whilst maintaining spending on core social and economic programmes.

Over the next three years, government aims to reduce the deficit to 3.3%, thereby stabilising debt as a percentage of GDP and confirming the resilience of our public finances.
However, the prospect of sustained low growth over the medium-term remains the greatest risk to our fiscal policy objectives and limits government‘s ability to generate more revenue or sustain higher levels of debt to finance its existing commitments.

Further consolidation measures may be required to ensure fiscal sustainability.

We remain committed to improving efficiency and prioritising the most essential sectors and services.
We remain steadfast in our commitment to funding social protection for vulnerable members of society, even in difficult times.

Spending plans over the medium-term allow for moderate real expenditure growth, with priority UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 77 given to advancing higher education, health and social development.
We remain focused on maintaining the fiscal framework whilst redoubling our efforts to grow the economy and lifting it out of the risk of the low growth trap.

IsiZulu: Ms M S KHAWULA: Bengifuna ukwazi ukuthi uNgqongqoshe uyayithathephi leya i-briefcase emnyama?

English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): No, hon member, that is not a point of order, please take your seat.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: The government wage bill will stabilise as a share of the budget, largely as a result of measures to reduce appointments in noncritical posts.

[Interjections.]

Ms S S THEMBEKHAYO: House Chair, on a point of order.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 78 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order, hon members!

Yes, why are rising hon member?

Ms S S THEMBEKHAYO: On Rule 80 House Chair, Rule 80(1) and (2).
House Chair, before proceeding in terms of subrule 1 of Rule 80, as a presiding officer you are not supposed to switch off the microphone before, before you can inform the member of the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon member, please take your seat.

Ms S S THEMBEKHAYO: So, we are not going to teach you how to apply the rules.

You must read the rules ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Take your seat.

You are irrelevant, hon member, thank you.


Ms S S THEMBEKHAYO: ... we are not going to teach you how to ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 79 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Your mic is now being switched off.

Take your seat.

Continue hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: We are working with the Department of Public Service and Administration and all departments to strengthen and monitor personnel trends, and help managers operate within budget constraints.
Between Budget 2016 and Budget 2017, the gross tax revenue target was revised down, pointing to an economy under significant stress.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Minister, let me hear this hon member.

I want to remind hon members also, that you must read the rules in its complete form as it is in front of you and not just focus on a specific part of it.

Why are you rising hon member?


Ms E N LOUW: Chairperson, it is actually on something very serious, the Minister of Women in the Presidency and the Minister of Small Business Development they UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 80 continuously showing this gesture to this member, stating that they will kill her.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon members, order!
Ms E N LOUW: I am asking you to investigate it and then ask them to withdraw because we do not have time for such gangsterism here.

We know that this Minister of Small Development ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon members, the Minister is busy with a very important statement ...

[Interjections.]

... to the benefit of the House and also to the nation.

Let us not unnecessary interrupt the Minister for spurious points of order.
Hon member, take your seat, I have not recognised you I am still busy talking.

Ms S S THEMBEKHAYO: Chair, will you recognise me?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): take your seat please.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 81 Ms S S THEMBEKHAYO: Will you recognise me?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): I am still busy dealing with a point of order that your member raised.
Ms S S THEMBEKWAYO: Okay, but you will recognise me nhe, you will recognise me because I want to deal with the Minister of Small Business Development.

I want to deal with this Minister.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): No, take your seat.

Ms S S THEMBEKWAYO: But will you recognise me, Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Take your seat.

Ms S S THEMBEKWAYO: I will take my seat but will you recognise me because I want to deal with her.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon members, hon members from both sides of the House, can we allow this debate to continue and give the House the dignity it UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 82 deserves and also refrain from making unnecessary gestures or raising spurious points of order that disrupt the proceedings in the House.

Continue hon member.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: measures are being implemented ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Minister, let me just hear what this point of order is.

Ms S S THEMBEKWAYO: My point of order, House Chair, is that you must rule on that because that Minister must withdraw her gestures.

If she does not withdraw here gestures I am going to deal with her now, I am not afraid of her.

I am gonna moer [beat up] her now.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): No, hon member!

Ms S S THEMBEKWAYO: I am gonna moer [beat up] her now.
I am not afraid of you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): No, hon member, I am now switching off your mic!

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 83 Ms S S THEMBEKWAYO: Come here, I am going to trap [beat] you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon members, that is exactly what we are trying to prevent, to allow this debate to degenerate to the level where it currently is.

Hon Minister of Small Business, did you make that gesture to the hon member?
Order hon members!

There is only one Minister of Small Business Development in the House.

IsiZulu: UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISA AMABHIZINISI AMANCANE: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, uyazi uchuku alufuneki nokungakhulumi iqiniso kwabantu abadala akufuneki.

English: Hon member, there are cameras here.

Firstly, the hon member says that I did this when I never did.

Secondly, it is that hon member that did just that.

I didn‘t do that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Minister, thank you.
Hon members, we will study the footage in the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 84 House to determine exactly what happened if it is available so that we can proceed with the business in the House.

Hon member, why are you having your hand up?

Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, you can‘t ask an accused ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): What is the point of order?

Mr L G MOKOENA: I am rising on a point of order.


You can‘t ask the accused to tell you if they did something or not.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK: No hon member.

Mr L G MOKOENA: Just as a way forward you can go and study the footage later but it is not correct to go and ask the accused to tell us whether she did wrong or not.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Please take your seat; my ruling is consistent with the rules.

Hon Minister of Finance will you continue please.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 85 IsiZulu: Nks M S KHAWULA: Uxolo kancane English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order, hon members!

IsiZulu: Nks M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga.

Ngithi mina uhulumeni wobandlululo wayenqamula abantu amakhanda, nalo hulumeni okhona manje usisabisa ngokusinquma amakhanda.

Sicela ukuthi uyilungise leyo nto.


English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon member, that is not a point of order, please take your seat now.

Order hon members!

Continue hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Measures are being implemented to continue to realise efficient spending and to generate additional taxes over the medium-term.

In the period ahead, government will focus on strengthening budget execution and the in-year monitoring of spending.
We have UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 86 to do more with less.

Achieving value for money and eliminating wastage is a key objective in the years ahead.

Government departments should not expect additional funds from the fiscus but need to fulfil their mandates within the budgets that are being voted on.
We are working with other government stakeholders on a new infrastructure financing facility that will address shortcomings in the planning and execution of infrastructure projects and will ensure thorough technical analysis takes place.

Procurement reforms offer the possibility of a sustained improvement in the effectiveness of public spending.

Initiatives led by the Office of the Chief Procurement Officer will boost efficiency and narrow opportunities for corruption in government.
Over the next three years, the office aims to save R25 billion by renegotiating contracts with government‘s top 100 suppliers, consolidating spending on common goods and cutting red tape.

Significant risks remain to the achievement of our fiscal targets.

However, government remains committed to narrow the budget deficit and stabilise debt in the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 87 medium-term, including achieving a primary surplus in 2018-19.
This will require tough decisions and resilience.

We must reignite growth in the economy and pursue transformation relentlessly.

Building confidence is about raising expectations about future economic growth in both household disposable incomes and the profits of the real sector.

We have to strengthen our developmental coalition in Nedlac.

We have to ensure that our preferential procurement regulations form a crucial link between macroeconomic policy, industrial development and job creation.
This is the most powerful way to increase the multiplier effects of our fiscal interventions.

Our interventions must protect the incomes of the poor, protect existing jobs and create new job opportunities, and we must preserve and expand our industrial capabilities as a nation.

We must respond in a way that addresses the immediate challenge of arresting the recession whilst simultaneously laying the foundations for long-term transformational growth.
We will have to urgently implement tailored interventions that are aimed UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 88 at stimulating value-added, labour intensive and locally- owned sectors.

This approach will ensure that we protect the public finances against adverse shocks in the medium to long term.

We will have to ensure that our state-owned companies are efficiently governed and they strictly implement our local procurement commitments.
We have to find ways to improve the manner in which our development finance institutions are funded, to empower them to aggressively respond to the growth challenge.

We also have to fast- track our interventions in relation to illicit financial flows, money laundering and other activities.

The challenges facing our economy cannot be resolved by government acting alone or through populist rhetoric.
The poor of our country are not easy pickings or low-hanging fruit for opportunist vote seekers and grabbers.

The challenges they face are real and to solve them requires sustainable programmes, a singular focus, unyielding commitment and a resolute leadership.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 89 Whilst the political parties continue to bicker on the budget and the economy, the ruling party and its leadership, government, business, labour and other social partners must multiply their united efforts to reignite growth in the economy in an inclusive manner.

Our economy today needs leadership!

Finally, I wish to congratulate the new director-general of the National Treasury Mr Dondo Mogajane ...

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

... on his appointment by Cabinet to the important post of director-general and we wish him well in his future endeavours.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.].

Bill read a second time.

Business suspended at 11:37 Business resumed at 14:00 APPROPRIATION BILL (Consideration of Votes and Schedule) UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 90 Vote No 1 – The Presidency – put.
Declarations of vote: Mr S C MOTAU: Chairperson, whilst President Zuma might have been listening to me last Wednesday in-between his cat naps and his snoozes, he apparently did not hear me.

This is what I said right at the beginning of my speech on Budget Vote No 1: The Presidency: Under the ―misleadership‖ of President Jacob Zuma, South Africa seems to be hurtling uncontrollably towards becoming a failed state.

President Zuma missed this completely.

This was a warning.
This was a warning.

I was warning that if the people keep President Zuma in office, and the Zuma ANC in government, South Africa will soon move to being a failed state.

President Zuma must stop believing his own propaganda and being in denial about the dire economic, political and social state in which he has plunged South Africa.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 91 I hope he does not accuse the following institutions of peddling issues that are not relevant to him like it is propaganda.

Here it is: the warning from Statistics SA about unemployment and the recession and the warnings from the SA Reserve Bank about the economic prosperity of South Africa and the World Bank about the economic prosperity of this country.

This is not propaganda.


This is real, and the President has to take this into account.

More South Africans, if not all, recognise that South Africa has come a long way from 1994, but we still have a long way to go to the promised land of Nelson Mandela‘s South Africa.

I thank you.

Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, it is time for the Presidency to show leadership in alleviating the plight of those suffering the consequences of the devastating fires and floods in the different parts of the Western Cape.
I offer our deepest condolences to those who lost loved ones.

Until this Vote has a parliamentary oversight mechanism, the IFP will not support it.

This concern has been raised UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 92 on a number of occasions by our leader, the hon Buthelezi, and by me in different fora.

Efficient implementation of the National Development Plan, NDP, is failing, and unemployment stubbornly sits at 26% of the employable labour force.
How do we reduce poverty, inequality and alleviate suffering without creating jobs?

Credit ratings downgrades, recession, failed state – this is what follows in its wake.

The President‘s announcement that a judicial commission of inquiry must be constituted to thoroughly investigate this disease of state capture is welcomed, but more can – and must – be done.
It begs the question, Chairperson: Who will make the appointment of this commission, as the President is the head of the executive and cannot be both player and referee?

This matter must be looked into urgently.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

Afrikaans: Dr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, die Grondwet van Suid- Afrika sê die taak van die agb President is om Suid- Afrika te verenig en om te verseker dat sy optrede in die beste belang van Suid-Afrika is.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 93 Wat ons tans beleef, is dat ons ‘n President het wat, weens sy retoriek teenoor witmense, polarisasie veroorsaak.

Hy stig en hits rassisme aan.

Ek wil vir die agb President sê: Die geld wat hy vandag van die belastingbetaler vra vir sy departement het nie kleur nie, want wittes, swartes, bruines, Indiërs – almal — dra by tot die belasting van Suid-Afrika.
As ons gaan kyk na die optrede van die agb President, het sy optrede net tot nadeel van Suid-Afrika gestrek.

As ons gaan kyk na die ekonomie, as gevolg van die optrede van die agb President, groei dit nie.

Die agb President het ook nie my vraag beantwoord toe ek hom gevra het wat hy van die witmense verwag nie.

Hy het my wel uitgenooi vir ‘n gesprek.

Ek het dit aanvaar.

Ek sal daardie gesprek met hom voer, maar die VF Plus sal nie sy begrotingspos ondersteun nie.
Ek dank u. English: Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, in presenting the SA Council of Churches‘ Unburdening Panel report, Bishop Mpumulwana said, ―We cannot unsee what we have seen‖.

It is clear for all to see that what has been done to South Africa UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 94 and its people – the looting, rape and plunder of our state – could not have been done without ...

[Interjections.]

... without ... Let me go back.


I am saying it could not have been done without the person who could have said that that should be done.

That is Jacob Zuma.

Mr Zuma has betrayed our nation and, in doing so, he and the ANC have caused the country and her people all the problems we are faced with.
This is a government that has violated its constitutional mandate, which is to secure the wellbeing of the people of the Republic, to provide effective, transparent, accountable, coherent government for the Republic, and to be loyal to the Constitution and the Republic as a whole.

That is what he has done.

We cannot unsee what we have seen.

We therefore want to emphasise that this cannot be supported.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY (Ms D E Dlakude): House Chairperson, the Presidency is there to support the work of the President, Deputy President and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 95 Cabinet in leading the alignment and co-ordination of the strategic agenda of all government departments through the identified 14 national outcomes, by providing essential support to various oversight, co-ordination, mediation, and nation-building mechanisms.
The Presidency, as the hub and driver of strategic co- ordination, provides direction, overall leadership and supervision to every sphere of government.

It ensures a focused and aligned response to the implementation of all government‘s plans, processes and programmes.

The Presidency also contributes to the realisation of an efficient, effective and development-orientated Public Service, as well government‘s role in nation-building and social cohesion.
The Presidency leads integrated planning, co-ordination and the performance monitoring and oversight of all government‘s policies and programmes.

The President has at least four question-and-answer sessions annually in this House.

It is a responsibility of each and every one of us, as Members of Parliament, to question and make follow-up questions to the actions or UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 96 decisions taken by the executive.
However, in our haste, especially in case of the opposition parties, for political showmanship, they choose to berate and vilify the person instead of robustly questioning the Office.

I thank you.

[Interjections.]

[Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 2 — Parliament – put.


Declarations of Vote: Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, the IFP supports this Vote but must express its concern that as an arm of government we are hopelessly underfunded.

For us as Parliament to be able to effectively respond to our constitutional obligations, adequate resources are a sine qua non.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 97 Furthermore, we cannot have a member of the executive, namely the Minister of Finance, deciding on how much funding is adequate for us in Vote 2.

It is imperative that we look at a new funding model for this Vote.

Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you hon House Chair.

The NFP supports this Budget Vote and calls on the department to reduce any wasteful and fruitless expenditure, and put stringent measures in place to cut costs.
One of the challenges which I explained previously is with regard to the issue of the abuse of constituency offices, air travel and accommodation.

These are matters that need to be attended to so that we can reduce our costs.

With regard to the issue of staff salaries, the NFP says that the department must ensure in its annual budget that it provides for increases for staff members‘ salaries in terms of inflation so that they could be motivated.

The NFP supports the Budget Vote tabled here today.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 98 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you House Chair.

The ANC fully supports this Budget Vote but nonetheless Minister of Finance, we note that we need serious assistance to pay salaries and also to make the necessary increases to staff salaries.

If we can‘t get that assistance we will have no peace.

We are therefore respectfully asking you to assist us in this regard.

That is one issue.
That is one issue.

The second issue is that we would like to align ourselves with the IFP that as an arm of state we need resourcing of Parliament to be dished out and allocated to Parliament in a manner and a framework that is different to the allocation of resources to the departments that fall within the executive.
Therefore, this is very important and I think all of us should then get best practices in this regard so that the allocation of resources to Parliament does not follow the same pattern and process of allocating resources to the executive arm of state.

We fully support this budget.

IsiXhosa: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 99 Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Sihlalo, i-UDM iyayixhasa le Voti yoHlahlo-lwabiwo-mali.
Niya kukhumbula ke ukuba ... English: ... we have already expressed our concern about what we call the strategic orientation of Parliament ... IsiXhosa: ... nokuthi ngesiXhosa esiphandle le Palamente ifana nabakhwetha phaya esuthwini kuba ingcekana imoqolo kunye norhulumente.

Yinto ekufuneka siyilungisile ke leyo kuba kaloku thina into ekufuneka siyenzile kukumgada nokumjonga urhulumente ukuqinisekisa ukuba wenza izinto ngendlela.
English: With regard to the point about whether or not Parliament is adequately resourced, the question we should ask is whether or not it would be in the best interest of the executive for instance, especially an executive that has gone rogue, to adequately resource the very same Parliament that should conduct an oversight role over it.

Siyabulela.

[We thank you.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 100 Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Thank you very much House Chair.
We have become very aware of the role that is supposed to be played by Parliament as an arm of state.

Oversight over the departments and its entities is not child‘s play.

The compensation of both employees ...

[Inaudible.]

... would encourage the people to work, be diligent and bring service delivery.

This means that the budget of this department as an arm of state must be adequate to fulfil these great responsibilities.

We also support this Budget Vote.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you Chairperson.


The ACDP wants to align itself with the concerns that have been expressed about the budget for Parliament and in particular relating to staff members, and the impasse and concerns that have been expressed by staff members in that regard.

From our side we also wish to fully support the establishment of ad hoc committees, firstly looking into party funding but more particularly looking into our state-owned enterprises, SOEs.
We are reminded of the effective ad hoc committee into the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, and how that resulted in effective UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 101 oversight from Parliament.

It was riveting viewing by the public that were encouraged by the fact that parliamentarians across all political lines were working together to exercise effective oversight.
So from our side we look forward to more effective oversight in that regard and the establishment of ad hoc committees.

Maybe it might be a good idea to start with Eskom.

Question put.

Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, we actually had a declaration as well.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Unfortunately it wasn‘t recorded ma‘am.

What is recorded here is your objection, as well as the calling for a division.

An HON MEMBER: You must wake up.

Ms D CARTER: Don‘t tell me to wake up.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon members.

Hon Carter?

Order!

Hon Carter?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 102 Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, I just want to say one thing to you.

You have to protect all members of this House.

[Interjections.]

The comments we are getting from the ANC benches are out of order and you need to deal with them.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!


Hon Carter, I was talking to you and you started having a conversation.

Can you please ... Ms D CARTER: Yes Chair, because they are ...

[Inaudible.]

... and swearing at a person here.

Who are they?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Hon Carter, can I address you on a matter you raised?

Unfortunately I was not given your objection.

The declarations that have been requested earlier are actually on the form that has been given to parties.
There were then other additions that were requested.

Members came to the podium.

I was given those.

Unfortunately for Cope I wasn‘t given.

I am sorry about that but what we have been given is that you have called for a division.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 103 Ms D CARTER: Hon Chair, I will come and check the list now as well just to make sure it is updated.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you very much.

Okay.

Appreciated.

Division demanded.


The House divided.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon members.

I wish to acknowledge the presence in the gallery of students from Howard University who are the guests of the Deputy Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development.

You are most welcome.

[Applause.]

Mr W M MADISHA: Order, order.

Ms M S KHAWULA: On a point of order ... IsiZulu: ... bashaya uCarter laphayana.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 104 English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Mr W M MADISHA: Point of order please.

IsiZulu: Nks M S KHAWULA: Bashaya uCarter laphayana The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member Khawula, can you take a seat?

[Interjections.]

IsiZulu: Nks M S KHAWULA: Bashaya uCarter laphaya!

English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you take a seat hon Khawula?

Hon Madisha, what‘s the point of order?

Order hon members!
Order hon members!

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, I think it‘s high time that you spoke to members of the ANC here.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 105 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

What is your point of order hon member?

Mr W M MADISHA: That‘s exactly what I‘m saying.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I‘m trying to ...

[Inaudible.]

... to you.


Mr W M MADISHA: The way in which they behave by swearing at other people and so on is out of order and that should be dealt with.

We can point out particular people who do that kind of thing.

They truly cannot say that to hon Carter.

It‘s out of order and you as the Chairperson needs to do that.

This is absolute nonsense.

That cannot be agreed to.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Can you take your seat hon Madisha?

Hon Madisha, can you ...


[Inaudible.]

Hon Madisha!

Hon Madisha, can you take your seat?

Order!

Hon members!

Hon members!

Hon Chauke, can you take your seat?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 106 Mr W M MADISHA: But we cannot allow this.

You need to deal with it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, can I ...

[Interjections.]

Mr W M MADISHA: You need to deal with this.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

Order hon members!

Hon Madisha, can you take your seat?

Mr W M MADISHA: But it‘s high time that you dealt with this nonsense here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha!

Hon Madisha!

Hon members!

Hon members!

Order hon Mahlangu.

Can we please be in order?

Can we not use language that is unparliamentary when addressing one another?

[Interjections.]

Hon member Sibande!

Hon members!

Ms D CARTER: Chairperson?


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 107 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I ask the Whips of parties to actually assist and talk to their members.

[Interjections.]

Hon members, hon ...

[Inaudible.]

... Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, we can‘t allow this nonsense here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): ... is there trying to talk to the members of the ANC.

Hon Madisha, can you take your seat?


Hon Madisha, can you take your seat?

Mr W M MADISHA: I respect you so I am going to do that but we cannot allow this shit.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Madisha, can you take your seat?

Hon members, I have asked to address all of you.

A point of order was raised by hon Madisha with regard to the language that has been used by other members who are seated next to Cope.
The members of the ANC were cited as those who are the ones that have sworn at another member.

Can I please appeal to all of us?

We UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 108 all know the rules of the House.

All of us do.

We know what language we can use and what language we cannot use.

Can I ...

[Interjections.]

Hon member, don‘t interject when the Chair is addressing you.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

We are conducting a Vote of Parliament of this House and I would really ask us to continue with the business of the day.

[VOTING TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 3 – Communications – put.

Declarations of Vote: Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, we want to reiterate what we said when we were debating the Budget Vote that Parliament had to set up an ad hoc committee to look into the affairs of the SABC, as per the terms of reference.
Now, the SABC has a new leadership and a new interim board.

It is therefore our hope that the interim board, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 109 as they have started, will look into the affairs of the SABC.

We are happy to see that they have begun their work with vigour, so that they will be able to restore the credibility and the integrity of the SABC to serve the public and be the mouth piece of the public in a nonpartisan manner.

That is our take as the NFP.


Thank you very much.

Mr C H M MAXEGWANA: House Chair, the ANC supports the Budget Vote.

Supporting the Department of Communication‘s, DOC, budget is the right thing to do.

It is a budget that seeks to provide information to all citizens of this country, on what government does and where citizens can access services and help.

If you object, you deny South Africans the freedom they fought for over decades.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The committee is in a process of amending the Broadcasting Act and will finalise it in this financial year, precisely to address problems, among others, in the SABC.

[Interjections.]

In fact, the interim board, under UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 110 the guidance of the department, is on course and they need all our support.

Six months are too short for that interim board.

Wastage of funds in the SABC needs to be stopped like, yesterday.
The DOC is too small and it must be augmented.

We are making an appeal.

Communication for the country is too important.

That is why the budget must be augmented.

The committee supports the budget.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): The objections of the DA and the FF Plus have been noted.

Voting is closed.

I did put the questions.

[Interjections.]

The hon member wants me to start again.

I will do so.
I will do so.

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chair, yes, you left out a step and we obedient people have been waiting for the step.

The ANC were trigger-hungry.

They pressed before that.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 111 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order, hon members!

I was just assisting hon Singh.

Members have already voted.

Ms E N LOUW: Hon Chair, though we have not declared declarations on some of the votes, there are some that we object to.
So, do we raise our objections?

I did consult with the Table so, I think every time people are making declarations, you don‘t note the objection of the EFF.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Hon member, on Vote No 3, the objections are as follows: the DA, FF Plus, Cope and EFF.

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, the objections are only relevant if you are not going to have a division.
If we are going to have a division, then the parties are free to vote against the Budget Vote and then it will be displayed in the Minutes of the meeting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Member, that is why I was saying that we have noted the objections, but UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 112 members wanted it to be recorded that they have objected.

Therefore, I was assisting them in that regard.

Ms E N LOUW: Chair, I was just doing that for Hansard purposes.
Since other people are not here to work, we are here to work.

[Interjections.]

Whenever you are saying that you record the objection of the NFP and the ANC, you don‘t mention the objection of the EFF.

So, I just want you to state the objections of the EFF as well, for Hansard purposes.

Thank you.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Hon member, I have noted your concern.
I am sure that your Whip had indicated that we had earlier requested parties to indicate where they are having declarations and where they are having objections.

However, I noted it.

That is why I have recorded your objection.

Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 3 – Communications – put.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 113 Declarations of vote made on behalf of the National Freedom Party and African National Congress.

Division demanded.
Division demanded.

The House divided.

TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.

Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 4 - Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – Put.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 114 Vote accordingly agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 5 – Home Affairs – Put.

Division demanded.

The House is divided.


[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 6 – International Relations and Co-Operation – put.

Declarations of vote: Mr S MOKGALAPA: Chairperson, the DA objects to this budget.
We believe that the South African foreign policy has deviated from the human rights as illustrated by the appalling United Nations, UN, votes, the failed UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 115 International Criminal Court, ICC, withdrawal and protection and relationship with mass murderers and dictators like al-Bashir.
We are concerned about the high number of foreign missions and we support the call made by the National Development Plan, NDP, and the National Treasury to rationalise our missions.

We are definitely very much appalled by the fact that economic diplomacy is prioritised due to the poor quality of our diplomats.

Some are criminals and some have fake qualifications.
Finally, we are concerned about the audit outcomes of the department because it has received three consecutive qualified opinions on serial issues and we are still definitely failing to redeem ourselves to taking a leadership role in the global arena by promoting and protecting our constitutional values and principles of human rights, democracy and rule of law.
If we are to ensure that we have a better Africa and a better world, we need to make sure that we adhere to these rules based on the DA‘s values of freedom, fairness and opportunity.

The DA objects to the budget.

[Applause.]


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 116 Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chair, the NFP calls on the department to accelerate the process of identifying all state property and further calls on the department to seriously consider acquiring property rather than paying large amounts.
I am confused when I hear the DA talk about human rights when they are in fact are supporting the oppression of the people of Palestine by the Israelis and here they are coming with ...

[Interjections.]

[Inaudible.

]so I really do not understand their double standards.

The NFP supports this.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

IsiNdebele: Mnu M S A MASANGO: Sihlalo weNdlu, i-ANC iyasisekela isabelomali somNyango wezeTjhebiswano leenTjhabatjhaba nokuSebenza ngokuHlanganyela.
Iyazikhakhazisa ngomsebenzi omuhle kangaka owenziwa ngaphasi kwehlelo lokulungisa inarhakazi ye-Afrika, i-Agenda 2063.

Angeze ngazibala zoke izinto.

Urhulumende odoswa mnyango lo, wenza umsebenzi omuhle ngokulamula izipi lapha enarhenikazi ye-Afrika; bakhona UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 117 ePalestine, eDemocratic Republic of Congo neSewula yeSudan.
Isekelo leli sililetha ngombana umnyango lo norhulumende uyabatjela lapha kumKhandlo wezeVikeleko weeNarha eziBumbeneko bona bafake boke abantu babenelizwi, ukwenzela kobana umThetho weenTjhabatjhaba ube yinto efunwa babantu boke.

Sithi, urhulumende wethu akaragele phambili akhulume ngendaba yeSahara yeTjingalanga ukwenzela kobana abantu balapha abasagandelelwe njengathi nabo bakghone ukutjhaphuluka.

[Ihlombe.]
[Ihlombe.]

Sengiyivala: Woke umsebenzi lo esiwenza ngaphandle, utjho ukuthi abantu beSewula Afrika neNdlu le abasekele umnyango lo ukwazi ukuragela phambili ngemali le.

Ngiyathokoza.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

VOTING [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 118 Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No – 7 National Treasury – put Declaration(s) of Votes: Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, the Minister of Finance was appointed following the midnight Cabinet reshuffle by President Jacob Zuma.

Since being appointed, he has delivered a recession, junk status and record levels of unemployment with the staggering 9,3 million people who now do not have jobs, or who have given up looking for jobs in South Africa.
We are now in deeper economic trouble and yet the Minister‘s response is: ―Seeking a business meeting with the business leaders as soon as possible.‖ And making a commitment to a timetable for the implementation of plans that have never, and will never be implemented, which is all a little like fiddling with the deck chairs on the titanic.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 119 We cannot, and indeed we will not sit back when a staggering 9,3 million people do not have jobs or have given up looking for jobs in South Africa.

That is why we will not, and indeed cannot support the R30,7 billion budget for National Treasury in 2017-18.

I thank you.

[Applause.]


Adv A D ALBERTS: Chairperson, Minister, in the debate on the Appropriation Bill I mentioned that, given the state of our economy which is a self-inflicted wound if I‘ve ever seen one, there is little to say.

Afrikaans: Daar is tog egter ‘n belangrike aspek wat ek wil aanraak.

U moet kennis neem van die volgende.


English: It is a sin to wilfully drive this economy into the ground as the results thereof may be expressed in abstract terms like credit downgradings, recessions and econometric models measured in pure numbers.

Yet, what you do not see, are people living on the streets without UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 120 hope, people digging in dustbins for food, people without jobs lost and looking for leadership.
Afrikaans: As u enige empatie het oor hierdie mense sal die ANC homself nou losmaak van die proses van selfverryking vir baantjies vir boeties en werklik vir die armes begin sorg.

Dankie.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair ... IsiXhosa: Mphathiswa, sinengxaki apha ... English: ... of the economy which is in recession and has been declared to be in junk status and that means we also have no physical room to manoeuvre in trying to stimulate the economy of the Republic of South Africa.
Therefore, what we cannot understand as the political party is the fact that the Reserve Bank seems to be reluctant to reduce the interest rate to try and stimulate economy activity using Monetary Policy.

You can‘t have a Reserve Bank that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 121 continues to behave as inflation matters in an environment where we need to stimulate our economic activity.
For instance, in countries such as Brazil, you will find that not only do they have a target band, like your 3 to 6% but they also have a tolerance interval, so that when the economy is not growing well what they can do is that even if it reaches the upper band of the target they would not increase the interest rate until the economy grows slightly.
We need to consider such policies ... IsiXhosa: ... singaveli sesithi iyiphumezile injongo ... English: ... we just say we increased the interest rate; it did not reach the target, we reduce the interest because it does not help the situation.

It is counterproductive if you look at we are trying to do from a fiscal economic perspective.

Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 122 Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, there is ample evidence that that links the removal of Mr Gordhan and the Deputy Minister, Mr Jonas, and their replacements by Mr Gigaba and Ms Buthelezi to the state capture project.

The ordinary South Africans are the one that are paying the price of junk status and the recession.
In fact, there is an ample evidence of the role to reposition our State-Owned Enterprises, SOEs, to implement and redirect of the core functions towards benefiting the Zuptas while you were the Minister of Public Enterprises.

There is evidence that the Minister wrongfully assisted the Guptas while the Minister of Home Affairs, who have yet to receive the details of the R70 million tax rebate that was recently paid out.
The Deputy has been linked to corrupt activities involving the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, deals while he was still the Chairperson of the Prasa Board.

Minister, you and your Deputy do not have a moral legitimacy to serve in the executives of this country, let alone in the Treasury, and Cope cannot UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 123 support this vote while you and your Deputy remain in office.

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, I am standing on a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPESON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order!

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, I am rising on Rule 84 where the member is raising the moral legitimacy of the Minister and the deputy Minister.

I think that, when you deal with that you must come with a substantive motion or not cast aspersions on the members of this House.

Therefore, she must withdraw that.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPESON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order, hon member!

You said that you are rising on Rule 84 and 85?

Order, hon member!
Order, hon member!

I will look at Hansard and hear exactly what the hon member said in terms of those Rules and then I will come back to the House.

Hon Carter, have you finished your time?

Ms D CARTER: Yes.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 124 The HOUSE CHAIRPESON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Thank you, hon member.
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, we know that the biggest threat to our fiscal consolidation path is the situation with our SOEs, and in the dark storms that we have experienced yesterday and the dark storms that we are experiencing with the state capture, there is always a silver lining.

If we look what is going to happen on the first week of July, Telkom had deposited a cheque of R481,69 million into the National Treasury‘s account.
This is extraordinary for the government to receive dividend from, in this case, Telkom, where we see that the government continually throws money into the deep dark recesses of the SOEs.

We also see the costly bundling and bundling of the Petro SA, the SA Broadcasting Co-operation, SABC, the Central Energy Fund, Denel and Eskom.
Now, what made this Telkom success story after the previous interference from the former Minister Pule, is that the Chairman, Mr Mabuza, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 125 when he accepted his position, he said that he would only accept it if the government stayed kept interfering in the running activities of Telkom.

The government agreed and we now we see the results.
A total of R753,47 million going to the National Treasury in one financial year, together with an additional R691 million paid in income tax, is the lesson we can all learn.

Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, it‘s not very clear how I respond to most of the previous speakers, because they are not really speaking to Budget Vote No 7.

[Interjections.]

This is about Budget Vote No 7 and how adequate it is to fulfil the task.
We are having yet another debate on the Fiscal Framework and on appropriation issues.

We should focus on the budget.

Now, this is the very same Budget Vote No 7 as it was in February when the previous Minister was here.

So, if you are critiquing the budget, that‘s fine.

However, if you now want to have another debate on the Fiscal Framework, that‘s, frankly, irrelevant.
However, for what it‘s UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 126 worth, from the DA, we get the same old, same old, just with a few new words ...

[Interjections.]

... and so on.

Now, the key task here in so far as people are now dealing with the Fiscal Framework ... and that‘s what I have to respond to because that‘s what they are saying.
They are not talking about the adequacy of this budget, about the usefulness of the programmes related to the budget, and how the budget is being spent.

They are making a critique of government, as a whole, and the Fiscal Framework of government, as a whole.

That being what it is, however, the point I want to make, essentially, is this.

Yes, we have downgrades, which are worrying.

I am sure the Minister - and the government, as a whole – is worried.
Yes, we are concerned about the technical recession, but it‘s not the end of the world.

[Interjections.]

In fact, if we all ...

[Interjections.]

... Well, what does it point to?

The need for all of us, whichever political party we come from, to work together in the national interest.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 127 If the government, civil society, labour and business ... that must all work together, because, ultimately, we do have a national interest, despite our differences, and what we look for is constructive criticism – not just one, but many, many criticisms that serve, not just to undermine the ANC and the government, to undermine the country, and that‘s actually unpatriotic.

Thank you.

Question put.


The HOUSE CHAIRPESON (Ms A T Didiza): Those in favour will say aye!

HON MEMBERS: Eye!

The HOUSE CHAIRPESON (Ms A T Didiza): Those who are against will say no.

HON MEMBERS: No!

The HOUSE CHAIRPESON (Ms A T Didiza): I think the ayes have it.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 128 The objections of the DA, the EFF, the FF Plus, Cope are noted.

Agreed to.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: Chair, is it true that the hon Waters has a new name?
The HOUSE CHAIRPESON (Ms A T Didiza): Well, I don‘t know.

You can ask the National Assembly Table to advice us...

[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: I am told that he is Mr Division.

[Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPESON (Ms A T Didiza): Well, we haven‘t been advised here in the front Table.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, it seems that there has been a great deal of renaming in the House, because last week, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, after failing to pass the Border Management UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 129 Authority Bill, it looks like he‘s a Chief Whip of the Minority Party in Parliament.

[Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPESON (Ms A T Didiza): Well, I think that, that discussion can continue in the Chief Whip‘s Forum.
Order, hon members!

Question put.

Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 8 - Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and Congress of the People dissenting).

Vote No 9 –Public Enterprises – put.


Declarations of vote: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 130 Ms N W MAZZONE (DA): House Chairperson, our state-owned entities are not in a state of chaos but they are on a state of capture.

Every single morning another scandal breaks.


We deal with Gupta associated businesses being given tenders, children of chief executive officers getting multi-million rand deals and then we have resignations, retirements, retrenchments, reappoints and labour court cases.

Our state-owned entities can‘t be bought and the department of public enterprises can‘t be destructed and dictated to by the Saxonworld shebeen.
As the web of state capture continues to unravel, so will the strangle hold that the Gupta family has over the Department of Public Enterprises.

The time is now to put a stop no corruption and to state capture.

South Africa is not for sale.

The DA will not support this budget.

Mr N SINGH (IFP): House Chairperson, the IFP doesn‘t support this Budget Vote.
Under the department‘s watch Eskom continues to be the poster child of mismanagement UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 131 and incompetence.

Its management smile as they tell you how profitable the entity is whilst conveniently refusing to elaborate on high electricity costs to consumers or how allegedly irregular tender for coal supply deal were concluded.

South African Forestry Company, SAFCOL, is floundering under allegations of misappropriation of assets.
Transnet is implicated in the Denton report, which states that companies fraudulently invoiced Eskom and Transnet when no services have been rendered.

Hon Malema, in a press conference today said that there is over R10 billion possible corruptions in Transnet and to make matters worse we now have allegations surfacing which ask the question and I quote: ―Is the senior bureaucrat at the department a Gupta spy?‖ This doesn‘t auger well for the future of this department and it should be disbanded.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Prof N M KHUBISA (NFP): Chairperson, the reports of maladministration, corruption and everything that is happening within our SOEs don‘t do any good to our UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 132 country.

The image and the integrity of our country is compromised through all that where money is squandered and where the government fiscus is not used for the purposes that they are supposed to be used for.
Therefore, the NFP is saying it‘s high time that we undertake a huge turnaround within the SOEs because it is pulling our nation down.

For the sake of our nation, we need to deal with those officials who are corrupt and taking the government fiscus for themselves.

Thank you very much.

Adv A DE W ALBERTS (FF PLUS): Chairperson, Minister, during the budget debate I spoke to you about the captured Public Enterprises under you watch, like Eskom and Transnet.
This point was laboured by many other opposition MPs.

We think that should you wish you to leave a lasting legacy; you will have to untangle the Gupta web and free the SOEs to perform the functions to the good of the public or just sell them off.

The money can be used to repay our government debt and help the poor.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 133 I also wish to thank you for reverting back to us on the Transnet pensioner‘s matter that you are looking at a solution in this regard.

I will be awaiting your further discussions on this matter.

Thank you very much.

Mr T RAWULA (EFF): Despite our efforts and commitment to provide superior and practical logic on the role of SOEs in a developmental state-led industrial path, the ANC government has refused to listen.
The only reason why the refused to listen is because it is the EFF providing intellectual clarity.

Now we have a much bigger and oppressing problem of a captured President and a captured government and what makes this worse is that at the centre of this capture is looting our tax money through SOEs.

The Guptas are looting money at Eskom through Tegeta.

The Guptas want to loot more money at Denel.

The Guptas are looting more money at Transnet.


The Guptas are looting money at SA Express and now we know for a fact that they are looting at all other SOEs.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 134 We stand here as the EFF to call for the removal of all current boards of SOEs and place these institutions under administration or else the looting is just going to get out of control and the Guptas with the help of Mr Zuma will take more bags of money to Dubai.
With the new revelation, Mr Malusi Gigaba, the Minister of Finance is at the centre of stealing money.

He even advised the board of Transnet to ignore the former Minister Pravin Gordhan and committed to deal with Mr Gordhan, hence he is out of Treasury.

Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Member, can you take your seat.

There is a point of order.

Mr T RAWULA: What now?

Mr B A RADEBE: I am rising on Rule 85.


The speaker has just said the Minister of Finance is at the centre of stealing money, so that one must come to substantive UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 135 motion only and it can‘t be just alleged here.

It must be withdrawn.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member.

Can you stand up?

On your statement ... Mr T RAWULA: You will be receiving ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member.
I didn‘t say you must proceed.

There is a point of order that has been made.

Mr L G MOKOENA: Order, madam.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I rule on the first point of order.

I will take your second order.

In your statement you didn‘t say alleged.

You put it as fact and you know that you can‘t impugn on the character of a member without putting that on a substantive motion.

Can I ask you to withdraw?

Mr T RAWULA: Madam House Chair, I will be submitting the substantive motion very soon.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 136 Mr L G MOKOENA: Order, Madam Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you please withdraw?

Mr L G MOKOENA: Order, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): order, No hon member.

Can I deal with the member on the podium?

Mr L G MOKOENA: I am dealing with that point.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I will come back to you.

Take your seat.

Mr L G MOKOENA: Before you ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No.


Hon member, you know that you are supposed, order!

Hon member, you can‘t say you will bring a substantive motion.

Yes, you may bring it but for now you are out order.

Can you withdraw that statement?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 137 Mr L G MOKOENA: Madam Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I am addressing your member.

Mr L G MOKOENA: No, according Rule 92(4).


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, hon member.

Can you take your seat?

Mr L G MOKOENA: Rule 92(4) I can engage you on your ruling.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I am now switching off your microphone.

Mr L G MOKOENA: Rule 92(4), Madam!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): It is a microphone.

Order, hon members, can you please take your seat?

I have recognised your member but at the moment I am addressing your member on the podium?
Ms E N LOUW: But how do we withdraw the truth?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 138 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you take your seat?

Whether you regard it as truth without bringing a substantive motion, you have no right to actually state that as fact in this House.

Hon member, can you withdraw your statement?

Mr T RAWULA: Can the Minister deny what I am saying?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you withdraw your statement?
Mr T RAWULA: So the Minister can‘t deny it?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please withdraw your statement?

Mr T RAWULA: I draw under the statement.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member?

Can you please withdraw without any condition?

Mr T RAWULA: I have just drawn.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 139 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, drawing and withdraw are two different words and we all know them.
Mr T RAWULA: I withdraw.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you.

You can proceed.

Mr T RAWULA: Well, unless we do these, the EFF will never support the budget speech.

What is your problem now?

Mr L G MOKOENA: The Rule 92(4) says I can engage you on a ruling that you are making.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I had not even ...

[Interjections.]

Mr L G MOKOENA: Can I finish?

You can‘t stop me under any condition from engaging, under any condition.
Now you have already made a member here to withdraw a statement that he shouldn‘t have withdrawn, because at the centre of stealing doesn‘t mean you have stolen.

You can just be at the centre there.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 140 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, member, can you take your seat?

Mr L G MOKOENA: And he is saying that the Minister is at the centre of stealing money from the organisations.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I am switching off your microphone.

Hon member, while you may have that prerogative but you can‘t engage the presiding officer while making a ruling.

You can engage at the end.

Hon member, thank you very much.

I have therefore ruled on this matter and we proceed.

Mr N L S KWANKWA (UDM): Chairperson, I just want to read you some of the findings and the recommendations of the Committee on Appropriations.
It says the committee views SOEs, which have combined asset base of R1,2 trillion as critical in terms of their role of driving government developmental agenda.

This is particularly important given that economic infrastructure spending mainly is led by SOEs, which accounted for about 70% of the total public sector infrastructure spending.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 141 It continues and says, however the committee remains seriously concerned that operational inefficiencies, poor procurement practices, weak corporate governance and failures to abide by fiduciary obligations continue to place several SOEs that are now in serious financial difficulty.

IsiXhosa: I-ANC iyavuma yona kuqala kodwa ithi masixhase le Voti yoHlahlo-lwabiwo-mali.

Asoze ngunotshe lowo.


Ingxaki ephinde ibekhona yeyokuba ngenxa yemali ekumashishini alawulwa ngurhulumente isetyenziswa njengendawo... English: ... of fiddling with the public purse for self-enrichment stealing money from them.

IsiXhosa: I-UDM ithi ngunotshe lowo, intombi kaNtoshe eNgcamngeni phantsi kweNtaba kaNdoda, soze iyixase le Voti yoHlahlo- lwabiwo-mali.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 142 Mr W M MADISHA (COPE): Whereas our public enterprises, our SOEs have the onerous responsibility of fostering South Africa‘s development and to spearhead the transformation of our country in order to address large scale inequalities.

They sit at the epicentre of the project to thief, loot, rape and plunder the resources of our land.
Now, given the clear links between the Guptas and the director-general of the department Mr Richard Seleke, Cope calls for his immediate suspension, which must be followed by the properly required processes.

We must also from the side of Cope call upon the working class, the poor people, and the unemployed of our country to deal with this kind of thing.

They must understand where we are as a country.

We therefore don‘t support this.

Thank you.


Ms D Z RANTHO (ANC): Hon House Chairperson, one of the most foremost conditions that must be addressed for us to build a developmental state is the strengthening and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 143 enhancement of the capacity of the state to deliver to its people.

We know as the ANC that there are many challenges and allegations of state capture facing critical SOEs, such as Denel, Eskom and Transnet.
As a portfolio committee we will perform vigorous oversight over these companies to ensure that they deliver on their developmental mandate and transforming of the South African economy.

One of the objectives of the ANC government in this term is to build an inclusive economy that creates jobs.
The manifesto of the ANC was very clear that we will promote local procurement by directing the state to the progressively ... and buy at least 75% of its goods and services from South African producers and support small enterprises.

As the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises, we will continue to support the department and SOEs through the execution of our oversight and accountability mandate.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 144 To support African producers and support the small enterprises, we will have to have co-operatives and broad-based empowerments.

SOEs have been playing a pivotal role in advancing economic inclusivity and transformation.

As the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises, we support the Budget Vote of Public Enterprises.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In light of the objection registered I will now put the question.
Those in favour of the vote being adopted should say Aye and those against should say Noe.

I think the Ayes have it.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]

Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 145 Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration – put.

Division demanded The House divided.

Ayes – 220 [Take in from minutes] Noes – 89 [Take in from minutes] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 11 – Public Works – put.

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance and African National Congress.

Declaration of Vote(s): Dr M J FIGG: The DA objects to the Budget Vote 11.

Minister Nathi Nhleko, has revealed that eight out of fourteen companies contracted to carry out the notorious UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 146 upgrade to Nkandla has since been rehired by the department to perform other work.
Furthermore, the National Prosecuting Authority chose not to pursue criminal charges against three officials involved in the Nkandla scandal despite the fact that criminal action was recommended by the special investigating unit.

During the period from 1 April 2012 to 1 March 2017, six of the twelve officials facing disciplinary action as a result of the Nkandla project received performance bonuses collectively amounting to R222,743.

We also have 9,3 million people who do not have jobs.
Work opportunities provided through the EPWP, Expanded Public Works Programme, plan make a difference to the lives of the people who do not have jobs.

That is why we propose an amendment to the Appropriation Bill to increase the Appropriation to Vote 11 Public Works by R1,5 billion to provide for 203 602 more work opportunities in 2017/18, but the ANC would not support our proposal to create jobs.

We reject this Vote.


Mr F ADAMS: Hon House Chairperson, the seven-year turnaround plan of the Department of Public Works is to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 147 rebuild public works as the main pillars zero tolerance towards corruption and improving the way the department does its works.

The committee noticed that a major part of improving how our Department of Public Works work, is putting in place systems to ensure legal compliance in financial and management controls.
The result was that the Department of Public Works main Vote moved from multiple disclaimers to an unqualified audit in 2014/15 and 2016.

In the other part of DPWP, Director of Public Works Projects, namely the PMT, Project Management Team, the committee is pleased about an improvement from disclaimers to qualified audits but it is urging the PMT to continue reducing the areas of qualification.
The committee is pleased of the attention given to the need for intergovernmental co-ordination and I wonder the previous speaker of the DA that was here is the first time that I see or hear that he is talking about public works.

He has never attended a committee meeting.

I don‘t know what he is talking about and he has never even come with a proposal to the committee to say an increase.
You know, one thing about the DA is that they like to talk UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 148 but action is far from them.

Action is with the ANC, even more promising is the fight to eradicate corruption through the governing risk and compliance branch that investigates and identifies fraud and risk.

The ANC supports this Budget Vote.

I thank you.

Division demanded.

The House divided.


AYES – 224 [Take in from minutes] NOES – 86 [Take in from minutes] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 12 - Statistics South Africa – put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON Ms M G Boroto): I now put Vote 12 and according to my documents there are no declarations and no objections recorded but the DA is asking for a division.

According to this document I have.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 149 Mr M WATERS: Chair, we support this Budget Vote.

We are supporting it.

Vote No 12 – Statistics South Africa – put and agreed to.

Vote No 13 – Women – put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Please, can I ask the Chief Whips to go and rectify on the documents that we are given so that ours can be updated, please.
Chief Whips, check the documents that we have so that we do not waste time calling you when you have changed your minds or maybe you have never said it before.

Declaration(s) of vote: Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House Chair, the NFP supports the Budget Vote.

Every single day in our country, women and children, are either raped or murdered.

South Africa has become one of the most violent societies and the abuse of women and children is now at a very high and unacceptable rate.
One of the challenges that women and children face and especially women in the Western Cape, that are being raped or are murdered, is not as the DA said the other UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 150 day, about poor police work.

Police work is supposed to be actually investigating crime but here they are busy dealing with crime as a result of the socioeconomic conditions under which the people live in the Western Cape.
Poor housing, water, sanitation, high levels of drug abuse, incidents of gang violence, this is what is creating the situation where the violence is getting unacceptably high in the Western Cape specifically.

So, we are calling on the department to pay special attention to the challenges that the women and children in the Western Cape are going through.

Thank you very much.

The NFP supports it.


Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, I want to start off about how fascinating it is that people can stand up here and grandstand while supporting this vote and talking about the problems that our women, children and people with disabilities have whilst taking into consideration that more money was spent on the President‘s residence than what the Ministry is getting this year.

Therefore, Cope cannot support this budget.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 151 Our women, our children and the people living with disabilities in our country are worth more than the value of the residency of a President‘s house.

Therefore, we cannot support it unless more money is provided.

Thank you.

Ms P BHENGU: Chair, firstly ... IsiZulu: ... ngizocela ukungamphenduli umhlonishwa [honourable] u- Carter ngoba akezi nasekomidini, akazi nokuthi ukhuluma ngani.
[Ubuwelewele.]

English: As the ANC, we support the Budget Vote 13 – Women in the Presidency.

As a committee, we have outlined in our report the concerns that we had and we have pleaded with the department to take our concerns seriously and deal with them.
We have proposed for the summit so as to have a plan as to how to deal with the scourge of the killings of women and children saying that all members here should participate in all the government programmes like Count UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 152 me in, in the fight against the abuse of women and children.

IsiZulu: Siyababonga nalabo abaphumele obala belwisana nokubulawa kwabantwana nabesifazane, sithi i-ANC iyasisekela lesi sabelomali.

English: Thank you very much.


[Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided.

Voting [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 14 – Basic Education – put.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 153 Declarations of vote: Mr I M OLLIS (DA): House Chairperson, this is my first opportunity to address you on education.
Minister, we are concerned about some of the conditions in Basic Education, particularly in South Africa, for example, 38 schools in three provinces did not attain even a 40% pass rate.

That is a huge problem.

But Minister, the problem is not your budget.


You are going to receive this year, a Basic Education budget of R216,7 billion when you include the provincial allocations - that‘s almost one-fifth of the national budget, yet the pass rate for mathematics across the provinces is only at 51% and maths literacy has dropped for five years in a row.

The question we have for the ANC is: What you are doing with the money, if that‘s the kind of results that we are getting?
Two decades into democracy many poor and orphaned black children are falling behind.

It‘s not because of apartheid alone anymore.

It‘s because of 23 years of ANC mismanagement of the schools.

The answer lies in the quality of teaching and in the management of South African schools.
The truth is that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 154 for every excellent and dedicated teacher in South Africa‘s disadvantage school, there are many that are just not competent or qualified to do the job.

This problem, Minister, will not go away until we break the SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, protection racket that shields the underperforming teachers.

We can‘t support this budget.

[Applause.]


Prof N M KHUBISA (NFP): Chairperson, in support of this budget hon Minister, we want to cite a few issues, which we believe that they are very pertinent to the welfare of our education and the welfare of the state as such because education plays a very critical role in the socioeconomic development of the country.

Firstly, I think Minister; we need to strengthen early childhood education because that is very important.
The base of our education, the foundations are very important, school security, infrastructure, improved facilities, buildings, schools must have laboratories and libraries, and of course issues of governance, management and teacher development are also very pertinent.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 155 Secondly, the curriculum must be re-engineered improved.

There should be rethinking on curriculum design, we must have science and maths teachers in rural areas.
We must strengthen on entrepreneurship as well in our schools.

Finally, Minister, we need to deal with issues of ghost teachers, deal with the issue of teachers who are underqualified or unqualified.

I know you released a report recently that most of the schools in rural areas have either unqualified or underqualified teachers, and most of them were in KwaZulu-Natal in rural areas.

I think the department must improve on that, but the NFP will support the budget.

Thank you very much.


Mr L M NTSHAYISA (AIC): Hon Chairperson, as the AIC, we would like that all our children should go to school.

This very morning, I met some young learners and their parents in front of the Western Cape Provincial Education Department, demanding that they should be admitted to school.

It means that these learners if they are not admitted now, they would not be educated.

So, it‘s a challenge now that should be attended to.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 156 One may arguably claim that the budget that has been allocated to this department is big but it is not adequate because there are so many programmes and challenges that should be met by this department.

It is for this reason therefore that we have to be very smart in the use of the allocation that the department has received.

Education plays a very important role in the development of our nation, economically, socially and otherwise.
Most of the budget goes to compensation of employees, but teachers do not get enough in their salaries.

So, you wonder as to what is happening.

These are some of the issues that should be looked into because teachers are beginning to quit.

They are looking for greener pastures.

So, there is something that has to be looked into.

We should look into infrastructure as it is very important for conducive learning.

Then Chairperson, we also support this Budget Vote No 14.

Thank you.
Thank you.

IsiXhosa: Mnu N L S KWANKWA (UDM): Kuqala, Mama uMphathiswa, i-UDM iyayixhasa le Voti yoHlahlo-lwabiwo-mali.

Into yokuqala UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 157 ebalulekileyo nekufuneka siyenze siziinkokheli, abanye bethu ababefunda kwizikolo zoluntu, kukuba sikwazi ukuphakamisa isandla.

Akufuneki sibe ngabaprofeti bezinto ezimbi [doom and gloom].

Nathi kufuneka sikwazi ukuthi ziyasebenza zinayo nemingeni.

Ibaluleke kakhulu loo nto.


English: The second issue Mr Minister is the issue that centres around is that your infrastructure grant... IsiXhosa: .

naleyo izama ukuqwalasele imisebenzi esileleyo [backlogs] English: In many instances you will find that the capacity to spend this money in some of the provinces is an issue.

I remember there were attempts to try and address that problem but at the end that goes back to Treasury.
When we do that we punish the poor people for our failure, as government, to address these capacity constrains.

However, the other issue which concerns us a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 158 great a deal as the UDM is the issue of scholar transport.

Remember, you have your minimum norms and standards that you have developed with the Department of Transport in order to ensure that the safety of children is important.
IsiXhosa: Sifuna ukuqiniseka ukuba le nto siyenza ngendlela kuba abantwana bethu bayaqhubeka ukukhwela kwezi nqwelo babe ngathi ngamakhaphetshu.

Ezinye zazo azikho nasemngangathweni wokuthutha abantwana besikolo.

Ngamanye amaxesha uye ungakholwa nokuba zinelungelo lokuba sendleleni kusini na.

Yiyo loo nto ufumanisa ukuba xa kusenzeka ingozi abantwana bethu ngabokuqala ukusweleka ngobuninzi babo kuba ezinye zinto azenzeki kwezinye iindawo zokuhlala ezingahluphekanga.

Siyayixhasa Phathiswa.

Enkosi.


English: Thank you very much.
IsiZulu: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 159 Nk N GINA (ANC): Ngibonga kakhulu Mphathisihlalo, singu- ANC siyasesekela le sabiwomali esibhekelele futhi esibuka umongo walo Mnyango Wezemfundo la sibona khona sisiza kakhulu ezintweni ezibalulekile ezingumnyombo woMnyanyo ingqalasizinda, la sibona khona sisiza kakhulu ngisho izifundazwe ezinjenge-Western Cape lapho sithola khona ukuthi ezindaweni zabantu abamnyama, emalokishini ikakhulukazi izikole zakhona azikho ezingeni elihle kodwa le sabiwomali siyakwazi ukufinyelela lapho.
Siya nasekuthuthukiseni othisha indlela abafundisa ngayo.

Sibonga kakhulu ngale sabiwomali ukuthi ... ngizo kwenza isibonelo njenge-Western Cape la isifundazwe esibonakala sengathi sisebenza kangcono kodwa ukufundisa kwe- Mathematics yilabo bathatha khona i-Maths Literacy ngoba ababeki phambili ingane ukuthi ikwazi ukuthola i- Mathematics ngendlela efanele.
Lesi sabiwomali esikhona yilesi esicela ukuthi uNgqongqoshe aqhubeke nathi siyidlale indima yohlolo lokwenziwa komsebenzi wethu ukuthi yini indaba i-Western Cape kuyisifundazwe esingaziniki ithuba lokuthi izingane zethu zifunde i- Mathematics ngendlela efanele, ilokhu ibanika o-Maths Literacy.
Kodwa kukho konke loko, lesi sabiwomali UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 160 siyathemba ukuthi siwuKhongolose ukuthi yileso esizokwazi ukuthi sibe nonguquko uMnyango uthuthuke uthinte zonke izidingo ezifanele.

Siyabonga kakhulu.

Siyasesekela le sabiwomali.

[Ihlombe.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In light of the objections registered, I will now put the question.

Those in favour will say Ayes ...

[Interjections.]

... those against will say ―Noes‖.


[Interjections.]

I think the Ayes have it.

Mr M WATERS: Chair, the DA calls for division.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The question before the House is that Vote 14 – Basic Education be agreed to.

Are you all in your allocated seats?

Voting will now commence.

Those in favour of the vote being agreed to should press the ―yes‖ button; those against should press the ―no‖ button and those wishing to abstain should press the ―abstain‖ button.
Have you all voted?

Thank you, voting session is now closed.

Ms S M KHAWULA: Point of order.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 161 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, Ma‘am.

IsiZulu: Nk S M KHAWULA: Hhayi ke usichotho lapha uMabe ―sichotho‖ usebona ―uNomarashiya‖ lana ngicela ukhulume naye Manje manje.[Ubuwelewele.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chairperson!


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Unfortunately ... IsiZulu: UMam‘uKhawula angilazi ilungu elibizwa ngamagama okhuluma ngawo.

Nk S M KHAWULA: Kodwa ―uSichotho‖ uyamazi yena na?

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Angimazi lutho.

Nk S M KHAWULA: ―UNomarashiya‖ yena uyamazi?

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Angimazi mama.

Ngiyaxolisa angeke ngiyingene leyo ndaba.[Ubuwelewele.]
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 162 Ngicela ukhulume noSoswebhu benu.

Cha, kufanele uthathe isinqumo.

Nakhuya laphaya phesheya.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much.

Sit down!

Please, stop this thing you are saying hon member, we are in a House.

Let‘s be serious.

Let‘s do the work of the House.

Hon!

Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, my thing did not function properly, please.

So, I didn‘t cast my vote.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh, that‘s very dangerous.

If you can just indicate whether you are saying yes or no.

Yes, thank you.

So, I will add plus one when I read the results.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[Take in from minutes.]

Question agreed to.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 163 Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 15 - Higher Education and Training – put.


Declarations of vote: Afrikaans: Mnr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Agb Voorsitter, ‘n belegging in onderwys is ‘n belegging in die toekoms van ons land maar die ANC se beperkte begroting vir hoër onderwys en opleiding wys die party se stryd om korttermynoorlewing is vir hom nou belangriker as die jeug se toekoms.

Die DA glo dat geen verdienstelike student weens finsiële redes van ons universiteite en kolleges weggewys mag word nie.
Ons alternatiewe begroting sou addisionele studiegeleenthede bied aan meer as 63 000 leerders.

Die DA glo die addisionele groei moet veral gesien word aan die kant van ons beroepsopleidingsektor, die sogenaamde TVet-kolleges, maar ons kolleges sukkel met verouderde kurrikula en werkwinkeltoerusting.

Universiteite word daarby gedwing om honderde studente saam in oorvol klasse te groeper.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 164 Ons vertoë vir ‘n groter begroting vir hoër onderwys het op dowe ore geval en die DA kan dus nie anders as om teen hierdie beperkte begroting te stem nie.

Ek dank u.

[Applous.]

English: Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, we said that ...

[Interjections.]

Mr M S MBATHA: Chairperson, no.

We must go according to the percentage of the leadership here.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Mbatha, may I address you?
Listen, baba.

That‘s why I‘m calling.

We said you should check with the Table.

Your party does not appear on this document.

[Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: It‘s there!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): There it is, baba.

It‘s not up here.

[Interjections.]

I won‘t disagree that you speak on this.

As long as you record it, there is no UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 165 problem, but for now, I call upon the NFP.

[Interjections.]

NFP, continue.


Your turn will come.

Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, the issue of the infrastructure at our TVet colleges is very important.

Firstly, the NFP wants to emphasise that technical, vocational education is very important for the socioeconomic development of our country.

Secondly, we believe that we can move closer to the issue of free higher education.
The Auditor-General reported that more than R40 billion can either not be accounted for or was wasted in wasteful, fruitless or irregular expenditure.

That money could have been used for the betterment of our higher education to provide accommodation and also free higher education.

These issues are very, very important and we, in the NFP, want to bring them forward.

The NFP supports the budget.


Mr M S MBATHA: House Chair, our views are that the Fifth Parliament should allow, at least for a moment, the true reflection of what is possible, in the debate, and the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 166 struggle for free education in South Africa.

We must not allow this government to miss an opportunity to free our people from the bondage of apartheid.
This government knows very well that education, in particular for the poor, will really liberate the majority of our people.

The poor carrying their burden, their extended families, and make sure that, whenever they are educated, spread the wealth and make sure that the majority of the people in their families get out of poverty.
As we speak today, students are still waiting, and have been for more than three months for their National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, allowances and food, and transport, and we have more than three TVet colleges which are already on strike.

The government is antipoor, and for this to end, it is only free higher education, not an NSFAS loan that will help – because the NSFAS loan imprisons the poor, forcing them to pay back, and hence, have a half-start or a false start to the future.
Thank you very much.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 167 Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Hon Chair, to those that oppose Budget Vote No 15, to know and not to do is not to know.

To know the difference between right and wrong and to choose to do the right thing is beyond knowledge – it‘s wisdom.

The ANC always chooses wisdom ...

[Laughter.]

[Interjections.]

... and support, and with wisdom, the ANC supports Budget Vote No 15.
This budget constitutes the expression of the ANC-led government in action, its priorities for the students, for the young, for the poor and the working class.

It shows the flexibility of educational plans.

The ANC absolutely supports this Budget Vote.

Thank you.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 168 Vote No 16 – Health –put.
Declarations of vote: Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Chairperson, the NFP supports the Budget Vote tabled here today.

We want to commend the Department of Health for a very good job that they are doing in the country.

We also want to call the Deputy President to assist the department, especially, the department nationally, which seems to have a problem in having the provincial and local departments implementing basic health programmes, as a result of the limited mandate that sits with the department.
Hon Chairperson, we also welcome the sugar tax, and I think that, with the evidence we had the other day, it is quite clear that it has devastating effects on the health of our people.

We therefore call on the department, to ensure that the revenue derived from it is also spent on advertising and trying to promote good health amongst our people.

The NFP supports.
The NFP supports.

Mr R M TSELI: The ANC supports this budget without any reservation, because health is a priority for the ANC and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 169 the country.

This is in line with the Freedom Charter which states that: A preventative health scheme should be run by the state.

A free medical care and hospitalisation shall be provided for all, with special care for mothers and young children.
The National Development Plan, NDP, envisions a health system that works for everyone, with the sharp reduction in the country‘s spread of diseases and a strong public health system.

The spending in the health sector will grow from R170 billion in 2016-17, to R217 billion in 2019.

The hon members should by now be aware that the expenditure growth, it is mainly driven by expanded provision of the antiretroviral, ARV, treatment which now reaches about 3,5 million people.
As such, such intervention has resulted towards the improved life expectancy.

As the ANC, we welcome the government‘s decision taken last year, to implement a universal test and treat policy which offers all the patients that are diagnosed with UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 170 HIV, the ARV treatment.

In order to sustain this progressive decision, R1 billion has been earmarked for the comprehensive HIV/Aids and Tuberculosis, TB, conditional grants in 2019.
We want to take this opportunity to welcome the progress made, as well as the commitment towards the implementation of the National Health Insurance, NHI.

This budget is a reaffirmation of our government‘s commitment to strengthen the primary health care services so that it becomes attractive because it offers the first point of contact for health care services, especially, to the masses of our people.

I thank you.

[Applause.]

Question put.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Those in favour will say aye.

HON MEMBERS: Aye!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Those against will say no.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 171 HON MEMBERS: No!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I think the ayes have it.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[Take in from Minutes] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 17 – Social Development – put.


Declarations of vote: Ms K JOOSTE (DA): House Chair, a parliamentary question last month reveals that over the last three years, 136 children died every month from malnutrition related causes – that is 4 902 dead because their mothers could not afford appropriate food.
Malnutrition currently UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 172 affects 30% of children and unfortunately, if children don‘t eat properly in their first two years of life the developmental damage is permanent.

This is a humanitarian crisis, an economic disaster and an embarrassment 23 years into our democracy.
It is for this reason that the DA propose an amendment to the Appropriation Bill to increase the appropriation of Vote 17 by R4,5 billion as follows: Increase the child grant by R2,8 billion to prevent malnutrition amongst children from birth to two years; increase social grants by R1,7 billion to assist people battling high food prices.

The ANC not supporting the DA‘s proposal, it has failed to support mothers and the fight against malnutrition and the hunger in South Africa.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE (IFP): House Chair, the budget we are approving today stands between life and death for millions of our citizens.

It is against this background that the IFP continues to call for an increase in social grants for our most vulnerable citizens.
However, let me UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 173 state today that the IFP cannot support the utter mismanagement of the Department of Social Development in that the social welfare system in particular or foster care system is not coping; not enough is being done to fight substance abuse; food parcels are routinely used for politicking like we saw in Nquthu and while the department spent R121 million on travel to luxury hotels on overseas trips.

That is not all.
That is not all.

The Sassagate crisis has led to the extension of NET1 Cash Paymaster Services‘s illegal and immoral contract.

CPS recently indicated that they made R1,1 billion in taxpayer money from this illegal contract.

To make matters worse, these billions are only the money they are making from paying out grants and it does not include the money that they continue to make from illegal deductions from grant recipients and other doggy dealings.
All of this money, the hon Minister of Finance could have gone to increasing the social grants.

The IFP cannot stand by while the most vulnerable are left disadvantaged by the reckless actions of those in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 174 power.

We will, therefore, abstain from voting.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM (NFP): House Chair, the NFP supports this Budget Vote but wants to express its concern to the Minister about the child that was raped at the school by the janitor and well over one week, no social worker has visited this child.

[Interjections.]

The second thing [Inaudible.]

[Time expired.]

The NFP supports the Budget Vote tabled here today.
Dr C P MULDER (FF PLUS): House Chair, our colleague hon Shaik-Emam should take note that if you are an opposition and sitting this side of the House chairs, there is something wrong.

[Applause.]

It may sound good but for your party it spells trouble and the election results will show that.

Social service is one of the most important Budget Vote in South Africa because millions of people depend on the grants paid by this department.

We understand that it needs to be done in a certain way.
The hon Van der Merwe has already indicated that CPS made R1,1 billion pre-tax profit from this contract.

Money that could have been spent on other things if there was UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 175 capacity in the department to handle it ourselves.

But it does not exist.

Because of that, we really need leadership high-level professional to do that in that department.

Unfortunately, we all know that is not the case.


During the speech earlier this year, I referred to the hon Minister and said, it seems that the Minister is under the impression that she is only a ceremonial Minister.

[Interjections.]

So, the point is that the hon Minister should take full responsibility for what is happening in that department.
Afrikaans: Naas die Nkandla-saga en die Nkandla-skandaal in Suid- Afrika ... English: ... is what happened with Sassa - the second largest constitutional crisis that we almost had in this country because of what has been done in that department.

Hon Minister, it is unthinkable that the Constitutional Court says that the Minister must come and tell the court UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 176 why costs should not be paid personally by the Minister.

It is unthinkable.
It is unthinkable.

Unfortunately, the hon President comes along and says he is happy with that kind of unprofessional conduct and reappoints and leaves the Minister in her post.

I understand that you are a good person as an individual; I have no problem with that but social development is in crisis and is such an important portfolio that we cannot allow this situation to continue one day longer.

I would like to propose an amendment to the budget that the hon Minister‘s salary be reduced to R1,00.
Thank you.

Ms D CARTER (COPE): House Chair, I want to start off by seconding the proposal and I actually wanted to make it 99 cents.

Fourteen years since the establishment of Sassa, it is yet to perform the very function for which it was created 14 years later.

No, hon Minister, it is not for the buying of votes with food parcels but for the millions of the poorest of the poor, the most vulnerable that depends on the grants.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 177 Here we have executive arm of government that admitted to the Constitutional Court that it was not able to fulfil its constitutional and statutory obligation to provide for the social assistance of the people of our country.

As the court puts it, the officeholder ultimately responsible for the crisis and the events that led to it is the person who holds the executive political office and that is you, Minister Dlamini.
As long as we have a tainted person who has no integrity occupying the office of the Minister of Social Development, COPE cannot support this Vote.

Thank you.

Ms J L FUBBS (ANC): House Chair, the ANC supports this budget.

We did a thorough oversight of the budget and we were satisfied with the explanations given on how the budget will be spent.

The budget itself is pro-poor.

The bulk we know of the budget goes to Sassa for the grants – old-age pension, child support grant and other grants.
We are happy with the department and we are pleased that when it comes to the court judgement it is aligned to the Annual Performance Plan of the department and Sassa.

We UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 178 as the ANC raise our concerns within the portfolio committee meetings and made our recommendations there.

Therefore, as the ANC we support the Budget of Social Development.

Thank you.

Vote 17 – Social Development – put.


Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party, National Freedom Party, Freedom Front Plus, Congress of the People and African National Congress.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

Ms D CARTER: House Chair, I would like to find out why members are still entering the doors after the bells have stopped ringing.

Is it not supposed to be closed?

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 179 Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 18 – Correctional Services – put.

Declaration of vote: Mr S N SWART (ACDP): Chairperson, one the biggest challenges facing correctional services is overcrowding, and we know that overcrowding increases the incidents of disease and makes it difficult to rehabilitate inmates.
And this has resulted in the Western Cape High Court giving an order against the Pollsmoor Correctional Facility, that the population must be reduced to deal with this overcrowding.

Whilst we welcome the fact that the department is adhering to this court order, the situation exists at many other correctional facilities and this – of course – opens further litigation against those correctional facilities which will then be incurring further legal costs.

How does one reduce overcrowding?


One way is to look at the high number of awaiting trial prisoners, many of whom UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 180 cannot afford bail and are being kept in prison purely because not presenting a danger to society but purely because they cannot afford bail.

This needs to be looked at and we need to reduce our levels of overcrowding.

[VOTING TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 19 – Defence and Military Veterans - put Declarations of vote: Mr S J F MARAIS (DA): We have been dumped into junk status and a recession, thanks to the Zuma administration; with the Gross Domestic product, GDP, to decline further.

This short gun approach budget is not enough for an efficient defence force and it lacks the commitment and the political will to be realigned with article 202 of the Constitution.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 181 A reprioritised budget should have provided for the increase of seven border patrol units for improved border safeguarding.

We proposed an increase of R483 million for this, which, the ANC ha opposed, can you believe this?

The Minister must further sell Inkwazi as there‘s no need for it; place an embargo on the new VIP regional jet; cut the Human Resources, HR, expenditure to 40%.
This budget is bad value for money; reflects bad and confusing priorities; it‘s bad for the interest of South Africans and thus, cannot be supported.

Thank you.

Mr X MABASA (ANC): The ANC once more wants to that we support this budget vote.

Indeed, in the portfolio committee, where there were no cameras, all parties adopted the Report unanimously without any objection.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

Now, in this House, in the glare of cameras, the DA is missing an opportunity to redeem the remaining tinch of patriotism they have since the advent of democracy; because you cannot go around breaking that ―I love my UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 182 people‖, ―I love my country‖, I love my property in the case of you DA; the next thing you‘ll say ―soldiers should not have money to protect my people, to protect my country, and protect your property DA.
Sesotho: Le shwele matswalo.

English: Your conscience is dead.

The ANC supports this budget vote.

[Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 183 Vote No 20 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate – put.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

Take in from minutes.

Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.


Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development - put Declarations of votes: Mr W HORN: Hon House Chairperson, as the criminal justice system is critical to the fight against crime, a vote on this budget is also an expression of confidence or the lack thereof in these structures, systems and people who must lead the fight against crime and corruption.
Some of them, like Mr Shaun Abrahams last time spoke to the nations, some months ago, when reporting that while he UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 184 was dropping some unfounded charges brought hastily against the then Minister of Finance, the investigation into the corruption charges against that same member was nearly completed but who unsurprisingly seems to have no appetite to guide an investigation or lead prosecution of the multiple corruption-related crimes, calling out at him from thousands of emails between the Guptas and other members of their gang.
In respect of others, like the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, and the Public Protector, both under new leadership - we remain cautiously hopeful that they could still embrace the pivotal role they can play in the fight against corruption.

Therefore, it is regrettable that the ANC was not prepared to support our proposal in the Standing Committee on Appropriations to strengthen the fight against corruption by adding a R174 million to the investigative capacity of the Public Protector.
Mr S N SWART: Hon House Chairperson, the number of entities that fall under this Budget vote includes our courts, Legal Aid SA, National Prosecution Authority, NPA, the Public Protector and the SIU.

During the Budget Vote we were very conscious of the underfunding, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 185 particularly of the Public Protector.
One need to understand that in view of the previous judgements, many more decisions of the Public Protector are now being taken on review and more often, for spurious reasons by state departments.

This has to be defended by the Public Protector.

Why should that litigation be funded by the taxpayer when the Public Protector does not have sufficient funding to inve4stigate and defend court actions?
Similarly, the special investigating Unit, in the answer to the question from my side indicated that it was prepared to investigate state-owned enterprises, SOEs, and is assisting with the SABC inquiry that also has capacity problems.

Surely, it makes sense to give this unit additional resources.

It will be a win-win situation.

It was indicated that R418 million is owed to the Special Investigating Unit by various departments that it has investigated.
How can the departments that a unit is investigating withhold funds from it and that obviously stunts those investigations.

From our side, we will support this vote but will urge additional funding for this unit.

I thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 186 Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE: Hon House Chairperson, the ANC support the vote.
We support the vote to promote access to justice in South Africa – in this rights-based society that has actually managed to correct previous atrocities of apartheid.

We will continue to support the courts.


If you look at the number of new courts that were built from 1994, you will realise the good intentions that this ANC government has in terms of promoting the judiciary and making it strong for the public and to be in the position to access their rights and in order also to ensure that there is proper adjudication of rights in the courts.

Of course, I do support hon Swart when he said that we need to have more funding for the Office of the Public Protector.
We also need to have more funding for Legal Aid SA, in order for our people to be in the position to get free legal service, especially in areas that have been neglected.

For example when it comes to land claims it has been found that people who are trying to access land are not in the position to get legal representation.

We have actually indicated to Legal Aid SA that they have to make legal services available even for people who want to access land, including vulnerable groups like women.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 187 We are saying that there must be legal representation for women, especially when it comes to issues of child maintenance because half the time you will find that it‘s women who actually bear the brunt of having to raise children and when they have to access maintenance courts, it then becomes difficult for them to challenge men as they are the only ones who have money to pay lawyers to defend them when that money was supposed to be used for raising children.
I thank you.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

Take in from minutes.

Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 22 – Office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration - put UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 188 Declarations of votes: Mr W HORN (DA): House Chair, the independence of our judiciary is one of the reasons why South Africans are not in a state complete despair despite state capture, corruption and organised crime all around us.
Some may argue that in order to support our judiciary, this budget allocation must always be supported.

What if the failure to allocate money in this budget for the specific reasonable needs of our judiciary is motivated by something other than fiscal constraints?
During the Budget debate we challenged the ANC government by saying why the failure of this budget to enable the strengthening of security at the Office of the Chief Justice and the personal security of judges added to the lack of funding for the capacitisation of the Mpumalanga High Court must not be seen as an attempt to intimidate the judiciary.

Mr Masutha tellingly chose not to respond.


We say, to win the fight against corruption, state capture and those dishonourable criminals masquerading as the exact opposite, we need to protect the independence UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 189 of our judiciary through sufficient funding, which unfortunately is absent from this budget.

Thank you.

Ms M C C PILANE-MAJAKE (ANC): House Chair, the ANC supports the Vote.
Indeed, we have indicated over the debate that the ANC takes serious the burglary that took place at the offices of the Chief Justice to the point that there is a move towards declaring those offices a national key point.

I am surprised the DA is talking about this as if they have forgotten what we spoke about and it is because of the attitude that they have in everything that we deal with within the country to try and create commotion and confusion even when unnecessary.
If people are patriotic, when we talk about matters of this nature, you wouldn‘t come and grandstand, you will address these matters in a way that actually helps move South Africa forward.

We continue to support the Office of the Chief Justice, to appreciate the manner in which they are in the position to assist in administration of courts and to advocate for more budget to be allocated to the Office of the Chief Justice.
Thank you UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 190 Division demanded.

The House divided.

[Take in from minutes.]

Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 23 – Communications – put.

Declarations of Vote: Mr Z MBHELE: Since 2011-12, there has been a 55% reduction in the number of crime threats analysis reports – the raw material for fighting organised crime.
Similarly, the detection rate is a shocking 25% for murder and only 18% for robbery, as of last year and yet, crime intelligence and detective services are receiving the lowest relative percentage increase from 2016-17 in this budget.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 191 That is why we proposed an amendment to the Appropriations Bill to increase the appropriation of Vote No 23 – Police - by R688 million, to provide for the establishment of a stand-alone specialised unit, dedicated to the fight against drug-related crime in 2017-18.

However, the ANC would not support our proposal to wage this fight.

For these reasons, the DA will not support this budget.
Mr F BEUKMAN: Speaker, the ANC supports Vote No 23 – Police.

The R87 billion allocated to the department will be utilised to prevent and conduct investigation into crime, maintain public order, protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and uphold and enforce the law.

The ANC-led government has developed many policies and enacted laws to improve policy.

However, more still needs to done to reduce crime and corruption.
We welcome the recovery plans for visible policing and detective services.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 192 The demilitarisation and professionalisation of the police is a critical priority in enforcing integrity and discipline amongst police officials and national management.

The implementation of the NDP proposals for policing is non-negotiable and should be fast-tracked.
The building of an additional 63 police stations at the cost of R588 million aimed at the rural, deep rural and informal settlements will provide the necessary facilities to our people, to further strengthen the fight against crime.

We also welcome the refocus on the fight against crimes against children and women and the provision of more funds for victim-friendly facilities at police stations across the country.
We want to thank the 193 000 police officials of the SAPS for their hard work and dedication in difficult and dangerous situations to secure South Africans at all times.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 193 All communities must work together with the SAPS in fighting crime.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER: The DA, Cope and the EFF have asked for their objections to be noted.

The DA has asked for a division.

Am I right?

Vote 23 – Police – put.


Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance and African National Congress.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.

Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 24 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 194 Declarations of vote made on behalf of the African National Congress and African Independent Congress.
Declaration of vote: Mr P D N MALOYI: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports this Budget Vote.

Therefore, by supporting this budget it will be assisting the department to ensure that we enhance sustainable agricultural use, achievement of economic growth, creation of much needed jobs, provision of food security and, most importantly, to radically transform the fishing industry.
In order for us to achieve these important objectives - I take the advantage that the Deputy President is here, and together with him - we must persuade the Treasury that they must ensure that the following is being implemented: The 2003 Maputo Declaration and the 2013 Malabo Declaration.

That instructs not only South Africa, but the entire continent to ensure that we increase the budget of agriculture to 10% of the gross domestic product, GDP.

This is very important.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 195 As we speak, we have not moved as a country and we need to move because where we are is quite embarrassing.

The second matter which is important and which we want to emphasise - I will continue to emphasise this point - is to ensure that we move all the functions and the entities that lie in other departments through the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries.
Those are: One, agro-processing; two, Agri-parks; and lastly, we have a plan for this one, and that is the Land Bank.

I know that many people think that the Land Bank belongs to Rural Development and Land Reform, but it belongs to agriculture.

Therefore, we want the Land Bank to be part of the developmental entities which will assist smallholder farmers to be able to achieve their objectives, because as it is stands now, it behaves like a commercial bank.
The last point which we would want to make, which is very important, we need to reinforce the disaster funding for this sector in order to speed up the disaster relieve and compensation processes.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 196 As we speak today, there are serious problems in the Western Cape.

Therefore, tomorrow we will have similar problems in other provinces.
Now, if we don‘t reinforce the disaster funds we are going to have problems in terms of addressing these areas.

I must indicate that the ANC supports this Budget Vote and we hope that all other parties will agree with us that without agriculture we can‘t go anywhere.

Therefore, from where I‘m seating, the night might be long, but the day you are sure that it will come.

Thank you very much.


Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Madam Speaker, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is actually put food on the table for each and everyone to have something to eat, not money.

Therefore, this department is very much important indeed.

During these difficult times we are proud that agriculture has actually contributed significantly to the growth of the country‘s economy together with the mining.
Of course, the budget that has been allocate is not enough, money will never be enough indeed, but we have got to try to do a lot with the little that we have received.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 197 Also, it is important to note that mass production now is promising a lot, so our country has produced a lot of maize.

Again, it would be the smallholder farmers that are beginning to get assistance from this department.
We should also encourage women and youth to be actively involved in agriculture so that they will have something to do.

Therefore, let us all till the land to produce.

Then again, we are proud that ...

[Inaudible.]

... is doing a lot to assist the smallholder farmers.

We also appreciate the amendment to Extension of Security of Tenure Act of 1997 so that now the forced evictions to the farmers and the farm dwellers and these ...

[Inaudible.]

... farms will be prevented.


Therefore, we also like other parties to support this Budget Vote 24.

Thank you.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

AYES – 219: [Take in from minutes] UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 198 NOES – 82: [Take in from minutes] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 25 – Economic Development – put.


Declaration of vote: Ms E M COLEMAN: Thank you, hon Speaker.

We have all in the committee come to an understanding that the issues as raised or as are declared by the opposition have nothing to do with the department‘s performance, but rather party political caucus stands.
As the ANC, we want to say to the Minister using the words of Comrade Fidel Castro, open quote: The fact is, when men carry the same ideals in their hearts, nothing can isolate them - neither prison walls nor the sod of cemeteries.

For a single UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 199 memory, a single spirit, a single idea, a single conscience, a single dignity will sustain them all.
Indeed, as the ANC, we carry the same ideals despite not being shared by the opposition, especially the DA.

We support Budget Vote 25 of the Economic Development department.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided.

The SPEAKER: Hon members, the question before the House is that Vote 25 be agreed to.

Those in favour of the vote being agreed to should press the Yes button, those against should press the No button, and those wishing to abstain should press the Abstain button.
Have all hon members voted?

The voting session is now closed.

[TAKEN FROM THE MINUTES.]

Question agreed to.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 200 Vote accordingly agreed to (DA, Cope and EFF dissenting).

Vote No 26 – Energy – put.

Declaration of vote: Mr G MACKAY: Thank you Chair.


Let me be clear Chair, the DA does not – will not and will never support the Appropriation of the budget for the department that has failed in its most fundamental fiduciary duty resulting in a R16, 2 billion lost to Petro SA - the single biggest loss in history of our country as well as the total illegal sale of the nation‘s entire strategic field stock – leaving the country vulnerable to the international field supply crisis.
This also the department that bought the nuclear procurement system from the son of the ANC crony that be usually inflated price of a R170 million, a system that the department will now never ever use.
This is also the department whose DG is under investigation by the Auditor-General for corruption; and also the department that despite the very clear ruling by UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 201 the courts on the matter is still trying to fast track the nuclear deal by seeking exemptions from procurement regulations.

The DA Chair therefore cannot support the budget for this delinquent department.

I thank you.

[Applause.]


Declaration of vote: Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Thank you Madam Speaker, I don‘t think we could ever realise the enormity and the impact of continued mismanagement, fruitless and wasteful expenditure and corruption in this department.

To begin with, you have to look no much further than Petro SA.

The National Energy Regulator of SA, Nersa, whose job is to protect consumers, in their incompetence allowed the electricity prices to increase with 440% since 2008.
Nuclear will make the disasters of Medupe and Kusile seem small.

In respect of the hydro power everything is just one continued list of failures and mismanagement.

South Africa paid R150 million to the DRC for Grand Inga free, and the project is still born.

The IFP will just not support the budget.

Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 202 Declaration of vote Mr M N PAULSEN: Thank you Speaker.
Let‘s make one thing clear, there is not going to be any building of any further nuclear power station in South Africa, and those who have accepted bribes must know that they are either going to return those bribes or else they will have to – those Russians are going to deal with you.

So ―die pope gaan dans.‖ We must also get a full account of what happened to the R200, million that was allocated for consultancy because we don‘t want another Nkandla.
South Africa must prioritise renewable energy, research and development in energy efficiency and instil a tradition of energy savings in all our communities.

Secondly, those that stole our old reserve stocks and sold them for the penny to the friends for them to make billions must know that, the only place they will end up unfortunately is not Dubai.

They are all going to prison.


The fact that the new Minister does not see any problem with working with the same Deputy Minister and the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 203 Director General was part of all this Shenanigans – it is a clear indication that nothing is going change in this department.

While all this is happening our people are paying exorbitant amount of money for electricity.

Our people in remote rural areas and townships do not have access to electricity.
We cannot support this budget.

Thank you very much.

The SPEAKER: There was a request for a declaration from the ANC, but I guess we take it is not coming.

Hon members, there was a request for objections from the DA, IFP, Cope and EFF.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

The SPEAKER: Order!

The question before the House is that Vote 26 be agreed to.

Voting will now commence.


Hon members, those in favour of the vote being agreed to should press the Yes button, those against should press UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 204 the No button, and those wishing to abstain shall press the Abstain button.

Have all hon members voted?

The voting session is now closed.

[TAKEN FROM THE MINUTES.]

Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to (DA, IFP and Cope dissenting).

Vote No 27 – Environmental Affairs – put.


Division demanded.

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 205 Vote No 28 – Labour – put.
Declarations of vote: Mr W M MADISHA: Speaker, it is a fact that we need 10% growth annually to create jobs, that we need the creation of policies that instil investor confidence, that we need a government that has positive morals and in which there is no corruption at all, and that we need a government that tells the truth.

For example, the ANC-led government says the unemployment rate is 27% whereas, in real terms, the unemployment rate is 40% and growing.

We need to have realities here followed.


Therefore, in order for us to achieve this, we need a proper government that will put people first and families and friends second – a government that tells the truth.

Cope calls on South Africans to give an instruction to us here, as Parliament, that that foreign, foreign, and I repeat, foreign, family called Gupta be removed from South Africa so that our people can live.

[Interjections.]

Thank you very much.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 206 Ms L E YENGENI: Speaker, the ANC endorses the allocation for Budget Vote No 28: Labour.

Having considered the budget, strategic plan and performance plan of the Department of Labour and its entities, the ANC believes the department and its entities are on the right track to delivering services to the people.

I thank you.
I thank you.

The SPEAKER: The question before the House is that Vote No 28: Labour be agreed to.

Voting will now commence.

An HON MEMBER: ―The bells will be rung ...‖ The SPEAKER: The bells were rung.

HON MEMBERS: No!

[Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Are you sure?

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

[Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon members, those in favour of Vote No 28: Labour should press the ―yes‖ button.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 207 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker ...

The SPEAKER: You see, this thing of joking in the House is not right because you create confusion in this sector.

[Interjections.]

Let the bells be rung for 15 seconds.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 29 - Mineral Resources – put.

Question put.

Division demanded.


[BELLS RUNG FOR 15 SECONDS] UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 208 VOTING [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front-Plus, Congress of the People and Economic Freedom Fighters).

Vote No 30 - Science and Technology – put.

Question put.

Division demanded.

[BELLS RUNG FOR 15 SECONDS] VOTING [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 209 Vote accordingly agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 31 - Small Business Development - put Declarations of vote: Mr R W T CHANCE: This department has had no impact on the factors underpinning growth in the economy, essential to the creation, survival and growth of small businesses.
It is silent on essential issues, regulatory tax and labour reform and we now find ourselves in a recession which is further stifling the opportunities for small businesses.

The department‘s programmes and agencies are invisible to 97% of businesses in South Africa.

Minister Zulu missed an opportunity to be visible and relevant to these businesses by failing to support the DA‘s Red Tape Impact Assessment Bill.
The department is narrowly focused on continued funding of programmes while their acknowledgement to be failing cannot be justified.

While small business development should be a government priority, in the hands of this Minister and her direction UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 210 on this department, it is all talk, excuses and no action.

The DA cannot support this budget.

[Applause.]


Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, ... IsiXhosa: ... Mphathiswa, siyi-UDM siyayixhasa le Voti yoHlahlo- lwabiwo-mali.

Siyithethile lento kwangaphambili - andiyazi kuba ohloniphekileyo uFrolick akava xa kusithiwa ulisela - sathi olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali leli sebe alanelanga ukulungiselela izidingo zayo.
Uyakufumanisa ukuba imali eninzi iya kwezi arhente kodwa ... English: ... there is a concern which was address by the committee ... IsiXhosa: ... yokuba imali eninzi iya ... English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 211 ... to the administration rather than targeting some of the programmes, including these co-operatives which fail at a high rate.

IsiXhosa: Abantu basemakhaya baxhamla kakhulu kwaba kopolotyeni ukuba ukhumbula kakuhle, Mphathiswa.
English: There is also an issue of these intermediaries,... IsiXhosa: ... ekudala siyithetha neyayisenzeka ndisasebenza ebhankini ndingekazi kwalapha, ezihlawulisa abantu bethu ngokugqithisileyo.

English: It is an issue that we have been harping on primarily because – remember, Minister, we once said in the past - it prices them out of the market.
IsiXhosa: Xa kufuneka kwenziwe ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 212 English: ... a competition between government businesses at the same time.

IsiXhosa: Uyakufumanisa ukuba amaxabiso abo aphezulu kuphinde kuthiwe abanakho ukufumana iziniki maxabiso ... English: ... for that particular purpose.

It is the matter that needs to be addressed and attended to as soon as possible.

We support the Budget Vote, thank you [Siyayixhasa, enkosi].
IsiZulu Nks N R BHENGU: UKhongolose uyasiseka isabelomali somNyango Wezokuthuthukisa Kwamabhizinisi Amancane futhi sifisa senyuswe silinganiswe nezidingo zosomabhizinisi abancane nama-co-operative.

Abaphikisana nale sabiwomali bangayi ukuyofuna amavoti kubantu abadayisa emigwaqeni, abangasebenzi, abanezi-pazza shop, abagundi bezinwele nabaphila ngemali yesibonelelo.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 213 Thina siwuKhongolose siyazi ukuthi babaluleke kangakanani osomabhizinisi abancane ekwakheni imisebenzi futhi siyathemba ukuthi isabelomali salo mnyango sizokhula eminyakeni ezayo ngoba uNgqongqoshe Wezimali ukubeke kwacaca ukuthi osomabhizinisi abancane bayokwehlisa ukuphila kwabantu abaningi ngama-social grant okuyinto uhulumeni angeke akwazi ukuyimela uma sikhula isibalo sabaphila ngama-social grant.
UKhongolose uyasiseka lesi sabiwomali.

Siyabonga.

[Ihlombe.]

Vote No 31 put again.

There were objections.

Question put that the Vote No 31 be agreed to.

Division demanded.

[BELLS RUNG FOR 15 MINUTES] VOTING [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 214 Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Vote No 32: Telecommunications and Postal Services – put.
Division demanded.

The House divided.

Voting [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 33 – Tourism – put and agreed to.

Vote No 34 – Trade and Industry – put.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 215 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The FF Plus has requested a declaration, not?

The ANC has also forgone the declaration.

Question put.

Mr M WATERS: Chair, the DA objects Ms N V MENTE: Note the objection of the EFF.
Dr C P MULDER: The FF Plus.

Ms D CARTER: Cope.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and Congress of the People dissenting).

Vote No 35 – Transport – put.

Declarations of vote: Mr M S F DE FREITAS (DA): House Chair, it‘s quite clear the lack of leadership from the previous Minister UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 216 continues with the new Transport Minister.
Now, more than ever the transport sector in dire straits, little or no attempt has been done to deal with the various transport crisis.

The ridiculous tag-of-war between Transnet and Passenger Tail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, continues despite all parties agreeing that the situation is unattainable and that there are no signs that this will change.

The road safety death figures continue to be sky high, yet nothing is done to fix this.
In fact, strategies are being used that don‘t speak to what is actually happening on our roads.

Billions have been squandered by a corrupt and captured Prasa deals, yet there is a clear cover up to protect those involved, and SA National Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, continues to ignored the Gauteng motors of opposition to e-tolls even after the courts showed that e-tolls in the Western Cape will be a problem.

All this is just a tip on iceberg.


With all these and many others, the DA cannot support this budget.

[Applause.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 217 Ms D P MAGADZI (ANC): Hon House Chair let me indicate that there is leadership in the ANC and therefore, we will not allow to be ridiculed.

There are no cover ups in Prasa.

We will not allow people to keep on investigating deliberately leaving service delivery at hand.
Let me also indicate that as the ANC, we have indicated that we will advance development in the Republic of South Africa and in Africa in general in terms of roads.

We will improve movement of people and goods.

Lastly, we will make sure that we focus on road carnages and that we will be able to come up with the best strategies that can be able to deal with this.

The ANC support the budget.

[Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I put the question.
Those in favour will say ayes [Interjections.]

Those against will say noes.

[Interjections.]

I think the Ayes have it.

Division demanded.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 218 The House divided.

[Take in from minutes.]

Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 36: Water and Sanitation – put.

Declarations of Vote: Mr L J BASSON: Chairperson, water and sanitations shortfall is R3,5 billion for the 2017-18 financial year.
Owing contractors R1,2 billion and R2 billion on underfunding requirements.

Minister Mokonyane informed the portfolio committee that the shortfall will be funded from the regional bulk infrastructure grant, RBIG.

The RBIG fund is ring fenced and is a conditional grant intended for funding the social component of regional bulk and sanitation infrastructure.
Minister, the department will be in contravention of section 38 of the Public Financial Management Act, PFMA, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 219 if RBIG funds are used to fund your shortfall.

The DA requests Parliament to appoint an ad hoc committee to investigate the controversial Minister of Water and Sanitations and her department.

The DA will not support this budget.

IsiZulu: Nk M S KHAWULA: Siyi-EFF asisixhasi lesi sabelomali.
[budget] Laphayana e-Overberg umqondisi-jikelele [director-general] uhlukile ukusinikeza ukuthi kwenzakalani ngangokuthi kusukela ku-2015 kuya ku-2016 manje sekungu-2017 asikaze sisithole isisabelomali sakhona ukuthi senzani okukhombisa ukuthi imali yehle ngomlenze.

Kanjala laphaya eMpumalanga Koloni [Eastern Cape] endaweni yase-Xonxa Dam, abantu bakuleya ndawo amanzi abanawo baphuza amanzi angcolile akekho obanakile ngokuthi imali yonke iyathathwa isetshenziswe ngendlela yokuthi kwenzelwe uZuma amadili.
[parties] [Ubuwelewele.]

Kanjalo laphayana eNquthu kusigceme-1 [Ward 1] kune ...

[Ubuwelewele.]

Hawu!

Eyi, waze waziphatha kabi.

[Ubuwelewele.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 220 Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson I rise on a point of order.

The member has referred to the President in the first name terms against rule 82.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, let‘s refer to each other in respectful terms hon members.

But may I draw – order!


Before I get to you hon Chief Whip that there is no translation in certain languages available.

That makes it very difficult for other members.

It must be attended to immediately.

IsiZulu: Nk M S KHAWULA: Laphayana eNquthu, ngifuna uNgqongqoshe [Minister] okubuhlungu akekho uNgqongqoshe la ubalekile, bengifuna ake achaze ukuthi mangabe ehambisa intuthuko kubantu, izingqalasizinda njengamanzi, ngabe yimali ye- ANC noma yimali yabakhokhi bentela na?
kuyimanje laphayana eNquthu, o-Jojo bonke ababenikezwe abantu babuyelile bahamba bonke bathathwa bahamba babuyiselwa emuva, ngani, isikhathi esiningi i-ANC ayifuni ukutshela abantu ukuthi ...

[Ubuwelewele.]

Hawu!

Eyi, naze nanomona, hawu, nawe?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 221 The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: On a point of order.

Hon Chairperson!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Khawula, will you take seat please.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: I rise on a point of order.

The Minister of Water and Sanitations did not run away.

She is on sick leave and we all know about that from the ANC‘s side.

Mr M S MBATHA: Chair, on a point of order!

What point of order was that?

She is disturbing our speaker.

Sit down!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Please, take your seat - and you sit down.

Hon Khawula, you may conclude.


IsiZulu: Nk M S KHAWULA: ... Kanjalo siqonde ukusho ukuthi ngiyezwe ukuthi uthi akabalekile, sizothi ubalekile ngoba kuyimanje bekufanele eze ekomidini, kunobugebengu abahlangene ngabo nalo mqondisi-jikelele futhi okwesibili [and secondly] enye into engifuna ukuyisho, izimali lezo UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 222 ezifanele ziye kubantu ziyahamba ziye ezindaweni, kuma-SA Music Awards, Sama, laphaya kuMabala Noise.
English: We are sick and tired.

Our people are suffering.

IsiZulu: Abanawo amanzi phansi.

Hawu!

Ngiyafuna ama ...

[Akuzwakali.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Khawula, will you take your seat please.

Why are you raising hon members?

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.

I am rising on rule 85.

The member has just said that the Minister is involved in ubugebengu (crime) with the director-general.

It cannot be done without a substantive motion.


IsiZulu: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 223 Ms M S KHAWULA: Hhayi ngyaxolisa, uNgqongqoshe akekho, uthinteka [involved] kubugebengu.

Uphakathi ...

[Akuzwakali.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Khawula, will you just sit down please.

We have got a problem with the translation services because what the hon Radebe is saying is not what is coming through on the translation.
I will consult the Hansard in terms of exactly what the member said so that I can make a proper ruling in that regard.

But the member has withdrawn.

Thank you hon member.

Nk M S KHAWULA: Akasona isigebengu, uyakhwabanisa.

Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order.

I am raising on rule 85.

She has just said the Minister is a ―fraudster‖ she must withdraw that.

Mr M S MBATHA.

That‘s not true.

That‘s a wrong translation.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Calm down, calm, the same apply to what I said earlier.

I will check the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 224 Hansard and I will come back to the House.

If a ruling needs to be given in this regard, we will do so speedily.

Are there any further declarations?

Mr M JOHNSON: Chairperson, the ANC supports the appropriation for the Department of Water and Sanitation for this financial year.
Perhaps the first point that one should deal with is matter that relates to the one and half billion on an accrual.

The matter has been explained fully by the department and I cannot understand why the member continues to be on it.

The R5,8 billion upon which one R1,3 billion will come out of it, making sure that all these outstanding payments to service providers are to be done.
We are supporting this budget because it is a continuation of a programme that brings about a better to our people especially the poor and the working class.

We do so continuing as part of our job of oversight mechanism for the executive to account to our Parliament on appropriated funds by Parliament.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 225 Ours, shall be to be to continue to protect the public purse in ensuring the delivery of water sanitation to all especially the poor and the working class.

The department has no option but to do more with less.

The advancement of technology with new innovations call upon you to explore new forms of water and sanitation and service delivery.

Water and sanitation is a human right and accordingly it must be given such a status.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr R N CEBEKHULU: Chairperson, nationally, our water infrastructure requires new development and urgent maintenance.

In order to achieve this target, the department and its entities must spend within their allocated budgets.

The R3,5 billion overdraft wrecked up by the water trading entity and R654 million shortage at Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority TCTA does not inspire confidence in the departmental funds management.
Fruitless and wasteful expenditure in 2015-16 was 14% higher than in 2013-14 at R1,37 billion.

Skills are another area of concern.

Vacancy rates for engineers and scientist must be filled, failing which, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 226 water infrastructure development will become increasingly problematic and development targets will not be matched.

We see many small business concerns such as these pavement mechanics in our towns and rural areas.
Simple discharging waste products into gutters which eventually finds its way into our water supplies.

Strategy process at local government must be put in place to curb this easily preventable discharge of waste water.

The IFP will rather prefer to abstain on this budget.

Thank you.

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the DA calls for a division.

DIVISION VOTING Vote No 37 – Arts and Culture – put.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I now put the question that Vote 37 Arts and Culture be agreed to.

Those in favour of the vote being agreed to should press the yes button, those against should press UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 227 the no button and those wishing to abstain should press the abstain button.

Have all the members voted?

To the members that are standing around on my left, have you voted?

Take up your allocated seats, please!


The voting session is now closed.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[Take in from Minutes] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote 38 - Human Settlements – put.

Declaration(s) of Vote: Mr M S MOLOTSI (DA): House Chairperson, access to adequate housing remains illusive for many poor South Africans.

So, until such a time that the budget addresses this adequately, we will not be supporting it.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 228 For as long as there are housing contractors who go unpunished for building houses with structural defects, we will not be supporting this budget.

For as long there is no credible housing database, we will not be supporting this budget.

For as long as beneficiaries of housing opportunities have to wait, as long as they currently wait, we have no reason to support this budget.
For as long as ANC provincial governments are failing to spend their informal settlements upgrading programme, we will not support this budget.

Lastly, for as long as governments are failing to spend their urban Settlement Development Grant, USDG, we will never, ever support this budget.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

Ms E N NTLANGWINI (EFF): Hon House Chair, the EFF objects this budget with a contempt that it deserves.
Twenty three years into the democracy, Minister, you forever come to this podium and still struggle with title deeds.

Title deeds are only made available prior to elections – why are we still struggling to give or have an effective title deeds system?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 229 There is still no concrete and proper database to hold people ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order!

Hon members.
Hon members.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: ... who are beneficiaries; people that are supposed to get houses.

Why are we still struggling with this?

In fact, I think you should get tips from the hon Minister there next to you; his wife is after all an IT specialist that designs logos.

Furthermore, on the scandal of the over R600 million saga in Free State, it will be interesting to see the Minister of Police arresting his wife for alleged fraud in the Free State ghost houses.
With that, the EFF rejects this budget.

IsiXhosa: Ms N N MAFU (ANC): Sihlalo, ngokuzithoba okukhulu i-ANC iyayixhasa le Voti yoHlahlo-lwabiwo-mali.

Sixhasa kuba sisazi ukuba abantu abaxhamlayo kwesi sabelo ngabantu abasokolayo nabahluphekayo baseMzantsi Africa.

Abo badla UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 230 izambane lipondo abalukhathalelenga nokulukhathelela olu luhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali.
Siluxhasa sinjalo olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali siyacela kuMphathiswa ukuba ezi metrozi zingayisenzisiyo le mali zinikwa yona, ingakumbi iNtshona Koloni, mayisiwe phaya e-Imizamo yethu kuba abantu phaya bahlala ebugxwayibeni.

Kukho abantu abasokola imihla nezolo phaya ingakumbi ngexesha lentlekele.

Ngoko ke sithi xa bengayisebenzisi le mali, makujongwe ngayo iimeko ezinjalo.

Enkosi kakhulu.

[Kwaqhwatywa.]

Division demanded.

The House divided.

VOTING [Take in from the minutes] Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 39 - Rural Development and Land Reform – put.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 231 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon member only had a few seconds left of his party and he tried to use that to the best of his ability.

[Applause.]

Order, hon members.


Declarations of vote: Mr M HLENGWA: House Chairperson, the IFP wants to reiterate what it said in the budget vote that we are calling for a full-scale forensic audit into all Land Reform transactions in order for us to root out the gaping wounds of corruption, which took place during those transactions and we appreciate the commitment made by the Minister on that day.
Hon House Chairperson, we are concerned about the high number of idle and fallo forms and land and we believe that the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and fisheries and the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform must work together in ensuring that these farms are fully functional and that we get the maximum yield out of them.

Therefore, the farming incubation programme must receive the highest priority.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 232 Hon House Chairperson, we want to reiterate that rural development is not just about the provision of electricity, water and houses, but we must ensure that rural communities are given economic opportunities in order for them to flourish for us to be able to create economic niches for them and beneficiate around their capabilities and strength.
IsiZulu: Ngakho-ke izindawo zakithi zasemakhaya nako kuyadingeka ukuthi zinikezwe uxhaso olusezingeni eluphezulu oludlulele nje kulezidingo ezifanana nogesi, amanzi kanye nezindlu kodwa siqinisekise ukuthi amathuba ezomnotho ayafinyelela nakhona.

Izikole zasemakhaya nazo azithole uxhaso lokuthi bakhule ngokwesayensi, nobuchwepheshe, indlu yokusebenzela isayensi kanye nemitapomabhuku ngoba akusizi ukuthi izindawo zasemakhaya zisalele emuva, amadolobha namalokishi abe eqhubekela phambili.
Ngakho-ke intuthuko ebonakala emadolobheni, ayibonakale nasezindaweni zasemakhaya.

English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 233 Therefore, hon Minister, we want to assure you for our fullest support in all your able endeavours in ensuring that we realise these objectives so that rural communities can find their right full place in a free and democratic South Africa.

In doing that, we need the full support of individuals like you to come to the rural communities.
The IFP supports this vote.

... [Time expired.]

Ms N C MASHABELA: Chairperson, we have on numerous occasions tried to reason with the ANC on what constitutes a key fundamental of our revolution.

[Interjections.]

On numerous occasions, they have refused to reason with us.
We have tried on numerous occasions to reason with the ANC that we thought decisive break from their land policies over the past 23 years, there would be no tangible legacy that future generation of black South Africans can be proud of.

[Interjections.]

We have on numerous occasions, pleaded with the ANC to work with us and together present a unified voice on behalf of all landless black people in this Country.
In memory of the pain and suffering of those warrior men and women who laid down their lives so that we could gain freedom and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 234 take back our land from the dissidents of colonial thieves and rapists, who came to this land to spread their terror and diseases.

[Interjections.]

Let all freedom loving South Africans know today that the ANC has refused to reason.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

They have refused all our offers to work together and liberate black people.

They have refused to take back the land ...

[Interjections.]

... the land which gives life and meaning to black people.

Whites still have all the land and all the wealth.

They are killing and murdering black people in the farms.

They are making money on the backs of poor black farmers.

Ideologically and in implementation, there is no difference between the ANC of today and the National Party.
There is no difference, they all defend stolen property.

[Interjections.]

You defend stolen property.

We reject this budget vote.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

IsiZulu: Nk P C NGWENYA-MABILA: Sihlalo ngiyabonga, ... English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 235 I think, I have to just indicate that we can reason for ourselves as the ANC.

We are not tabula-rasa.

[Applause.]

Also, little information is dangerous.


The ANC supports the Budget Vote 39 which aims to change the lives of the South African people as we are a caring organisation.

IsiZulu: Uma sithi asisixhasi lesabiwomali, kusho ukuthi sithi abantu abaphuyile abahlale bephuyile njalo.

[Ubuwelewele.]

Uma sithi lesabiwomali asisixhasi, sithi kubantu abangasebenzi awangabikhona amathuba emisebenzi.

Uma sithi asisixhasi lesabiwomali, sithi ukungalingani akuqhubekele phambili.
Abadla izambane likapondo baqhubeke njalo bese abahluphekayo bahlupheke baze bafe.

[Ihlombe.]

Ukuxhasa le sabiwozimali kusho ukuthi kuzoqeda ubuphuya ebantwini bakithi abahluphekayo.

Kuzokwakheka amathuba emisebenzi, ikakhulukazi ebantwini abasha nakubomama.

Kuzoqeqeshwa abantu abasha ukuze bakhone ukuthola imisebenzi babuye bona benze amathuba emisebenzi.

Kuzothuthukiswa izindawo zasemakhaya.

Kuzobuyiselwa umhlaba kubaniniyo, bonke abantu babe nomhlaba.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 236 [Ubuwelewele.]

Kuzobuyiselwa abantu emasimini ukuze wonke wonke alime phezu komkhono, bathengise bathuthukise umnotho.

[Ubuwelewele.]

Impilo iqhubekele phambili.

Angeke kwenzeke konke loku uma uMnyango ungenayo imali, izisebenzi nezinye izinsiza ezizokwenza ukuthi lokhu esikushoyo kwenzeke.

I-ANC njengenhlangano yabantu enakekelayo izimisele ukuthuthukisa izimpilo zabantu njengezethembiso eyazenza ebantwini baseNingizimu Afrika.
[Ubuwelewele.]

Abadla ke izambane likapondo ngeke basesekele lesabiwomali.

Nisinika ke imvume ngalokungasekeli lesabiwomali ukuthi lo mhlaba siwuthathe mahhala ngoba imali asinayo.

[Ubuwelewele.]

Izimpilo zabantu basemakhaya kusukela i- ANC yathatha umbuso zishintshile, azisafani nayizolo.

Ngiyabonga.

[Ihlombe.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!

There are objections.

I want to put the question.


All those who are in favour will say ―ayes‖, and those who are against will say ―noes‖.

The ―ayes‖ have it.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 237 Question put.

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party, Economic Freedom Fighters and African National Congress.

Mr M WATERS: Chair, the DA calls for a division.

Division demanded.
Division demanded.

The House divided: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, the question before the House is that Vote No 39- Rural Development and Land Reform be agreed to.

Voting will now commence.

Those in favour of, the vote be agreed to, should press the ―yes‖ button; those against should press the ―no‖ button and those wishing to abstain should press the ―abstain‖ button.

Have all members voted?

The voting session is now closed.
AYES - 221: Abrahams, B L; Adams, P E; Adams, F; Adams, R C; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman, F; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 238 Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bilankulu, N K; Booi, M S; Boroto, M G; Brown, L; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Chueu, M P; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, N B; Didiza, A T; Dirks, M A; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Dubazana, Z S; Dlodlo, A; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dube, J J; Dunjwa, M L; Esterhuizen, J A; Fubbs, J L; Gamede; D D; Gcwabaza, N E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom; D A; Hlengwa, M; Jeffery; J H; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, H B; Kekana, C D; Kekana, M D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khoza, T Z M; Khoza, M B; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Koomhof, N J J v R; Kwankwa, N L S; Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Loliwe, F S; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo, S; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabija, L; Mabilo, S P; Madella, A F; Madlopha; C Q; Maesela, P; Mafu, N N; Magadla, N W; Magadzi, D P; Mahambehlala, T; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu, J L; Mahlangu, D G; Maila, M S A; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makondo, T; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleke, B J; Manana, D P; Manana, M C; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D; Mantashe, P T; Maphanga, W B ; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 239 Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M; Maseko, L M; Mashego-Dlamini, K C; Mashile, B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B; Masutha, T M; Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Matlala, M H; Matshoba, M O; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda, R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbalula, F A; Mbuyane, S H; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R; Memela, T C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkongi, B M; Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwabc, S C; Mnganga - Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mnisi, N A; Mogotsi, V P; Mokoto, N R;
 Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa, M R; Mothapo, M R M; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motsoaledi, P A; Mpanza; T K; Mpumlwana, L K B; Mthembu, J M; Mthembu, N; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa; E M; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndongeni, N; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkomo, S J; Nkonzo, T M; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, M L D; Ntshayisa, L M; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N; Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Ralegoma, S M; Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shaik Emam, A M; Shape- UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 240 Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, K P; Siwela, E K; Skosana, J J; Skwatsha, M; Smith, V G; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Theko, L C; Thomson; B; Tleane, S A; Tobias, T V; Tolashe, G N; Tom; X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M; Tsenoli, S L; Tshwete, P; Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J; Xasa, T; Xego, S T; Yengeni; L E; Zulu; L D; Zwane, M J, NOES - 79: America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Baker, T E; Bara, M R; Basson, L J; Bergman, D; Boshoff, H S; Brauteseth, T J; Bucwa, H; Cachalia, G K Y; Cardo; M J; Carter, D; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Edwards, J; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen, M H; Horn, W; Hunsinger, C H H; Jongbloed, Z; Jooste, K; Kalyan, S V; Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock; G R; Lees, R A; Lotriet, A; Mackay; G; Mackenzie, C; Madisha, W M; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango; B S ; Mashabela, N R; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J; Mazzone, N W A; Mbabama, T M; Mbatha, M S; Mbhele, Z N; Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mileham, K J; Mokgalapa,
 UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 241 S; Mokoena, L G; Mulder, C P; Ntlangwini, E N; Ollis, I M; Purdon, R K; Rawula, T; Robertson, K P; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Stander; T; Stubbe; D J; Swart, S N; Tarabella Marchesi; N I; Terblanche, J F; Thembekwayo, S S; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Vos, J; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Wilson, E R; Xalisa; Z R. Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 40 - Sport and Recreation – put.

Declarations of vote: Mr L M NTSHAYISA (AIC): In the words of the late President, Ntate Nelson Mandela, sport has the power to change the world and also has the power to heal the wounds of the past.

This department is the one that has been allocated the least and yet it is expected to achieve a lot, just out of a mere one billion allocation.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 242 It is true that this department – people in other countries have to live in peace with one another.

Again, this department has been getting clean audits.

We hope that other departments will emulate this good example from the Department of Sport and Recreation.

We are on our road to Tokyo 2020, we hope this time we will no longer have the bunch of losers.
We hope that we are going to achieve a lot and also say that South African Sports Confederations and Olympic Committee, SASCOC, should pull up its socks and do a lot to prepare for this road to Tokyo 2020.

We also wish Bafana Bafana a good game against Nigeria.

We support this budget vote.

Thank you.

Mr M S MBATHA (EFF): We will never support the budget whose only activity in the transformation is to bring about window dressing.
The only total transformation in sport in 23 years into democracy will be to see the dominance of African women across all sporting sections of our communities.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 243 We will never support a budget that continues to promote selective sporting; selective sporting that promotes codes that are dominantly white.

We will never support a budget that does not promote township and school development.
We will also advice the Minister, never try your luck on Comrades Marathon, not yet.

Mr S M RALEGOMA (ANC): As the ANC we support the budget because the national department and its provincial sport departments have aligned to the national sport and recreation plan, as well as the National Development Plan.

We have also taken cognisance that the sport plan is not fully funded and we have made our concerns on the inadequacy of sport budget known to the Minister.
We are, however, encouraged by the innovation shown by the department in the implementation of the plan.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 244 The ANC is also pleased that the R300 million municipal infrastructure grant pilot project for the building of sport facilities across the 30 municipalities has begun; and are therefore confident that success will prove the need to continue with this approach.
This will be our major concentration of work to ensure that the 15% of it is utilised for the building of sport infrastructure and facilities.

Lastly, we are hopeful as the ANC that the work been done by the imminent persons group, the commission appointed by the Minister to advice on transformation is making progress because more federations have embraced the need for transformation and are committed to the transformation charter and to sign their score cards with the Minister.

We support the budget.


[Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 245 [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Question agreed to.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Schedule put.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Schedule agreed to.

Schedule accordingly agreed to.

APPROPRIATION BILL (Second Reading Debate) There was no debate.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 246 Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

AYES – 219 [Take in from minutes] NOES – 75 [Take in from minutes] BOADER MANAGEMENT AUTHORITY BILL (Decision of Question and Second Reading debate) There was no debate.

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided.


AYES – 218 [Take in from minutes] UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2017 Page: 247 NOES – 74 [Take in from minutes] The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, may I address you in terms of Rule 97.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!

Hon member, does it have a bearing on the voting that took place now?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Absolutely, because I just wish to say congratulations for the third time lucky ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am still in the middle of declaring the Vote.

Order!

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

The House adjourned at 18:12.