Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698944513013.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 1 THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE MINI-PLENARY SESSION – NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ Members of the mini-plenary session met on the virtual platform at 14:00.

Mr Q R Dyantyi, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The Chairperson announced that the virtual mini-plenary sitting constituted a meeting of the National Assembly.
THE NEED TO FUNDAMENTALLY RESTRUCTURE THE INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ARCHITECTURE OF THE REPUBLIC TO ACHIEVE A PROFESSIONAL INTELLIGENCE CAPABILITY THAT WILL RESPECT AND UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION AND THE RELEVANT LEGISLATIVE PRESCRIPTS, ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE FINDINGS OF THE HIGH LEVEL REVIEW PANEL REPORT ON STATE SECURITY AGENCY AND ALLEGATIONS REVEALED AT THE JUDICIAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ALLEGATIONS OF STATE CAPTURE UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 2 (Subject for Discussion) Ms D KOHLER: Hon Chairperson, to read this week of a top investigative journalist being bugged by Crime Intelligence.
To read that Richard Mdluli has done a disappearing act and that eight million pieces of SA Police Services, SAPS evidence have been lost.

To read that the SA National Defence Force, SANDF budget has been slashed to such an extent that the washing line border ‘fences’ are as good as it’s ever going to get because those allegedly patrolling just stand and watch as people illegally stroll in and out of the country - something I’ve personally watched and filmed.
To hear of R7 billion looted via the State Security Agency, SSA - all this speaks to our Intelligence services being in a catastrophic state.

Why?

Because there is no money.

Why?

Because someone stole it all.

And as far as we know, continues to loot today.

We all know about the fortune Richard Mdluli and his family took via Crime Intelligence, and my colleague, the hon General – the real general - Okkie Terblanche, will go into that later.
That was the court case Mdluli didn’t bother to appear at last week, but that was a drop in the ocean compared to what was revealed during the Zondo Commission hearings.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 3 A total of R7 billion looted – just through the shady State Security Agency.

Add to that the monies looted via the Defence Intelligence agencies and you’ll know why the budgets had to be slashed.
Indeed, my colleague, the hon Kobus Marais, will tell you more about the SANDF looting a bit later.

Somehow, it all comes back to that grabber and the ANC’s Nasrec conference, doesn’t it?

It’s as though that one single act of corruption has come to represent the myriad acts of corruption in these three entities.
Robert McBride, as head of the Ipid, spoke out about it openly – the blatant theft it represented; wanting to claim R45 million for a R7 million grabber – allegedly to be paid to the Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma campaign.

Needless to say McBride was booted as part of the fightback campaign.

He was ousted in the most brutal way by a pack of his own ANC colleagues, the leader of whom now chairs our Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI.

I see he’s not bothering to speak today.


General Jacobs of Crime Intelligence was well aware of the grabber and the implications thereof, and he turned off all the looting taps in his division.

Needless to say he was booted, sent to cool his heels buried somewhere in the secretariat.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 4 To an outsider, the impression is that the looters at the State Security Agency, and at Crime and SANDF Intelligences are fighting back, and quite successfully so; and destroying careers and doing whatever it takes to ensure that those taps are fully opened once again.

It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase revenue streams.

Whether or not the odd assassination attempts are also linked, has yet to be seen.
Of course, the other rather annoyingly-independent area of concern to the looters has been the Judiciary.

Admittedly someone like Judge Hlophe has survived some 10 extraordinary - one would have thought - job-killing situations, but on the whole, the Judiciary has been a source of great, independent pride to South Africa.

Then we hear during the Zondo Commission of an entire SSA project aimed to ‘influence’ certain judges.

Firstly, the State Security Minister was incensed that this got out into the open.
Indeed, she went to court to try and stop certain revelations at the Zondo Commission, but failed at that attempt.

Secondly, she said during oral questions last week that the project may not actually have existed, but then contradicted herself to say, well it did but was called another name; or not.

Shady State Security indeed.


UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 5 Whatever the case, there is no way on earth that the State Security Agency may be allowed to investigate itself.

That is what the Minister is suggesting.

It is a ridiculous idea and should not be countenanced.

Allow that and next, we’ll be allowing matriculants to mark their own papers, and police to collect unwanted firearms for destruction, then sell them to Cape gangsters.
That’s ridiculous!

State Security is where investigations go to die.

This is where they buried the criminal charges I laid against Arthur Frazer for stealing the ‘spy tapes’ to clear the way for Zuma to loot and pillage our country.

So, no Minister, the SSA may not investigate itself.

The JSCI is the oversight body.

We all have Top Security Clearance, yet under our predecessors, R7 billion was stolen and they barely had an inkling; or did they?
Of course, had they spoken out about it, they risked being sent to jail.

It goes like this: Swear the oversight body to silence, and that stops them from saying a single word about all that is going wrong in these departments.

The revolving door of Intelligence that spits out new Ministers every second year or so, has seen a valiant attempt UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 6 made to re-vet agents.
Has the fightback by disgruntled employees now stalled the whole process?

In the SAPS there are top cops who simply refuse to be vetted.

If the looting has continued, how will we ever know?

As punishment after performing the magic trick that had R7 billion disappear on his watch, Zuma-chum, Arthur Frazer was moved to the highly-paid position of DG of Correctional Services.
We’re talking fraud, theft, forgery, uttering, corruption – great qualifications if you’re about to be transferred to Correctional Services.

So, what should be done?

Adopt the High-Level Panel Report in its entirety, now!

It says the levels of secrecy are far too extreme, yet not a single thing has changed.

Change them!

We need a total review of how this oversight body is kept in the dark.

A review of the Intelligence structures.


We need an Inspector-General of Intelligence willing and able, and allowed to do the job he or she is hired to do.

And we need to do whatever it takes to restore the very credibility of an entity which currently sits like a bloated, silent cash cow for the politically connected.

We’ve seen no arrests and no one fired.


So, the very people responsible for the looting of UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 7 the R7 billion and who know how much more, are still in positions.

And for all we know, are still looting.


The job of these entities, and especially the SSA, is to keep South Africans safe from internal and external threats to the country’s security, not spy on journalists, and certainly not to protect the thieves in their own ranks.

Yet, you know how weak you look when you are given the run-around by arch looter, Jacob Zuma who, when ordered to the Zondo Commission to appear, just says, no.
Had that been me, Mr Bheki Cele would have come to my house with a Special Weapons and Tactics, SWAT team, not for tea, but to arrest me.

These three entities are supposed to provide the bulwark to keep South Africa and our citizens safe, and not steal from them.

Stop just mouthing the words ‘it will get better’ as was done in 2017, in 2018 and in 2019 by the Minister who was soon booted out.

Implement the recommendations.

Stop with the endless excuses and just do it!


It was the ANC that allowed this scenario to play out and now the ANC must fix this mess.

The report damns the increasing politicisation of these entities, and especially in the SSA.

How much of the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 8 R1,5 trillion lost to State Capture was channelled through these three agencies has yet to be ascertained.
Madam Minister, stop being sidetracked by, for example, rushing off to bail out the President’s sister-in-law in Malawi and focus on the key findings of the HLR.

These are the most pertinent and should have been implemented and acted upon years ago: Root out the politicisation and factionalisation of the entire civilian intelligence community.
It is based on ANC factionalism and South Africans want to be protected, and not embroiled in a domestic spat; Reverse urgently, the Zuma-driven doctrinal shift which converted all projects into one stream aimed to protect the then President.

Undo it!
Undo it!

Everything about this move has been catastrophic; The disproportionate application of secrecy is stifling and achieves nothing but hiding the looting from the JSCI; and Lastly, the panel found that members of the SSA and senior politicians were illegally furthering the interests of a UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 9 particular political party - and guess which one that was.

Deal with this.

Show that you are taking corruption seriously.


Implementing the recommendations is the only possible way to turn the SSA into a globally-admired force against foreign and domestic threats.

This debate is a start.

A really good start.

Again, it’s just a pity that the chairperson couldn’t bother to speak.

Thank you.

Ms T M JOEMAT-PETTERSON: Chairperson, I wish to thank an opportunity to speak on such Important debate on restructuring our intelligence and security architecture.
I would like to thank hon Kohler-Barnard for allowing us to discuss this merchandise.

But I wish to add, that the security system and intelligent sector is not only about corruption, it goes further than that.

It goes about policing, and again, to putting pressure on Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, to investigate the acts of police brutality.

A 35 years old man, Mthokozisi Ntumba, a father of four, was brutally killed by the police.

This is equally unacceptable, reprehensible.


We convey our condolences to the family of this deceased.

A man cannot be killed during fist fight between UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 10 police and students.

So, this includes the kind of security that we seek for all people in our country.

Yes, the ANC is dealing with corruption, the ANC has put in structures and systems to deal with corruption.

We are not sweeping corruption under the carpet.


We, together must represent, and sometimes confront the imperfections of our history, and not fall back there, but to move this country forward to stability and growth, because the Constitution gives us the responsibility and the privilege to recognise, to mediate, to correct and promote the principles and values that would truly turn this country into the South Africa we want.

Hon Madam Minister, we are convinced that this can be done.
The concept of human security, emerged from the thoughts of German philosopher, Leibnitzi, who in 1750 already, expressed the need for security for citizens, as well from the French philosopher, Montesquieu, who noted that the true political freedom could only be achieved when people were secured.

Both philosophers saw the security of people more important than that of the state.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 11 Hon Kohler-Barnard, the ANC has indicated this concern as well.

However, views regarding security have evolved and changed over time, depending on the period and context.

When South Africa was negotiating our democracy and putting up fundamentals to govern our security cluster, it was the ANC who adopted a more people-cantered approach to security.
Hence, the outcome of the Convention for a Democratic SA, Codesa, deliberations on transitional arrangements was the promulgation of the Transitional Executive Authority Act of 1993.

During the deliberations of this Act, the ANC was strongly influenced by a desire to ensure that the intelligence service would never again be used as instruments of political control, and would be subjected to oversight and strong public accountability.
The ethical convictions held by the people’s movement of the ANC, forced it to proactively agitate for progressive overall intelligence legislation and oversight structures.

The structures are the establishment of the Standing Committee on Intelligence, the Intelligence White paper, the White Paper on Defence and the Defence Act.
The posture taken by the ANC to advocate for legislative framework was based on the fact UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 12 that a legislative basis provides a clear set of operating parameters and legal mandate for security forces to work within.

The rule of law is a fundamental and indispensable element of democracy.
It is only if security and intelligence agencies are established by law, and derive their powers from legislation that they can enjoy legitimacy.

The exceptional powers of such service must be grounded in a legal framework and within a system of legal control.

However, there is danger in assuming that legislation will solely by its passing, cause a change in intelligence agencies behaviour.

We note this reality as it became the subject of the High Level Panel Report on the State Security Agency.
The report points us to the need to achieve lasting change within the intelligence service, that we must deal with any unprofessional behaviour within the country’s intelligence structures, the need to establish sound governance and regulatory systems and a consequence management framework within the intelligence cluster has been recognised.
We must also caution all members of the Standing Committee on Intelligence against complacency and call them to redouble UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 13 their efforts to ensure robust parliamentary oversight over the work of the state intelligence agencies.

When partaking in such an important debate for national security, we must desist from telling half-truths, distortions and resorting to mischievous political posturing.
We must try and avoid political stunts that supersede critical engagement and using the High Level Panel Report on the State Security Agency as a weapon to weaken the state intelligence and security architecture.

Rather, we must use the report to understand the challenges that face our intelligence agencies and to strengthen them.

Our experience as a maturing democracy is teaching us many lessons.

As such, we all need to learn from our mistakes.

We must match our intentions with practice.


It is undisputable that early in our democracy, we adopted international best practices in the area of intelligence work.

These include that intelligence services are explicitly prohibited from undertaking any action that contravenes the Constitution or international human rights law.
Oversight institutions take all necessary measures to protect classified information and personal data to which they have access during UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 14 the course of their work.

Any individual, who believes that his or her rights have been infringed by an intelligence service, is able to bring a complaint to a court or oversight institution, such as an ombudsman, human rights commissioner or national human rights institution.
These are all the institutions that have been put in place by the ANC-led government.

So, let us not confuse ourselves by beating ourselves and speaking half-truths in this House.

There is a Constitution of the Republic, which provides that national security must reflect the resolve of all South Africans, as individuals and as a nation.

Chairperson, we seek to be a democratic and open society in which the ANC will continue to implement the will of the people.
We are a nation which occupies its rightful place in the family of nations.

This was only achieved by the ANC government.

I thank you.

Dr M Q NDLOZI: Hon House Chairperson, the premise of our debate is based on a misdiagnosis of the problems experienced by our intelligence services.

Any close reading of the high- level panel report will reveal that its problems have very little to do with structural inadequacies.
At the centre of the problem is the fact that the ANC has infused its corrosive influence across the intelligence services of this country UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 15 such that today, each and every intelligence institution has been overtaken by a reactionary and uncontrollably parasitic forces with absolutely no interest in securing the stability of South Africa.
The high-level panel report on State Security Agency, SSA, found that the State Security Agency has been politicised beyond measure and this has allowed rogue individuals with power to use security forces for their own nefarious purposes.

It found that it was not the ambiguity of the Constitution and legal mechanisms available to the state security forces but the flagrant disregard of these laws and policies.
This is what allowed the SSA to bend to the wheel of parasitic forces for reasons that have nothing to do with the stability of South Africa.

No other institution has been more abused to pursue private and personal political interests of ANC leaders and factions than the intelligence services.

Those who hold a different political view have been subjected to covert monitoring of their lives to extract information for their public humiliation or even prosecution.
This is while all the criminals run amok without any counterattack from the state.

We must remember that Vuwani UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 16 burning of 30 schools in 2016, the burning of trucks on the N3, the xenophobic violence that started in Soweto and spread across ...

[Inaudible.]

...are all reflections of catastrophic intelligence failures.
In addition are the recent attacks on shops owned by foreign nationals in Durban, the Beitbridge crisis and the burning of schools during the 2020 COVID-19 lockdown.

The SSA couldn’t be expected to provide any credible intelligence products on any and other events because it is exhausted by ANC internal factional battles and general corruption.
The honourable mantle secrecy meant to protect activities of the service from enemy forces - domestic and foreign, has over the years only served to create a Berlin Wall against accountability.

Generals, Ministers and other officials use this mantle to resist accountability for their parasitic and criminal looting of funds meant for state business.

The secrecy has inculcated a culture that allows rogue elements in the SSA to thrive and loot State Security Agency’s resources with impunity.
The ANC’s lack of commitment as well in ensuring the functionality of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence is also key to the failure of accountability.

Furthermore, UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 17 there is little hope that SSA will be come any better under the watch of the current ...

[Inaudible.].

Minister Dlodlo has already demonstrated that she’s incompetent and helpless.

She cannot show us any results ...

[Inaudible.]


... is complain the same way like the rest of us complain.

She is not even in charge of her own department.

The acting director-general went to the Zondo Commission and the Minister did not know what was going to be said there.

It was a statement of no confidence in her own leadership.

She makes noise however she wants, the reality is, she has been at the helm of SSA since 2019 and there are absolutely no improvements or results.
She is presiding over the most chaotic department in South Africa, and she is helpless and hopeless.

The only solution is for her to resign because all she does is complain like the rest of us.

The sooner the Auditor-General Office gains full access to SSA records in order to provide external auditing checks and balances on the use of state resources there by the security agency is better.

This is the only window of opportunity for some kind of stability.
This should include the ability to use the powers recently included through legislation to punish corruption and cover state money UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 18 that has been used and make sure that all those responsible are held accountable.

However, the final – in fact, the long-lasting sustainable solution for SSA stability is the removal of the parasitic ANC from government.
There is no fixing of SSA together with all intelligence institutions in the SAPS as well as in Defence without removing the ANC from power.

The ANC’s commitment to corruption will always render the intelligence services completely unstable.

Our long-lasting and sustainable solution is their removal from power.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: House Chairperson, I deem that necessary to start with a brief explanation of what policing is or should be about and the critical role that crime prevention is playing to operate successfully.

Before I get to the South African situation, the SAPS’s mission is to prevent and combat crime and investigate any crime threatening the safety and security of any community, ensure that offenders are brought to justice and participate in efforts to address the causes of crime.
Practical policing is broadly divided between proactive and reactive policing.

The police as the active partner should mobilise the public, and the passive partner should play an active role in the prevention of crime in their communities.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 19 Reactive policing should only kick in when crime prevention strategies fail.

Crime investigation is a reactive exercise aimed at restoring the broken relationships.
Crime prevention should therefore always be top priority for any police service.

The following two activities are key in pursuit of this goal, namely visibility and intelligence- driven policing.

Intelligence-led policing gathers domestic incidents, arrests, criminal records, traffic stops, gang activities, allows law enforcement to run analytics against this data.
These analytics helps law enforcement to identify offenders who are more likely to be repeat offenders of a particular crime or group of crimes.

Intelligence-led policing is a policing model built around the assessment and management of risk.

Intelligence officers serve as guides to operations rather than operations guiding intelligence.
In specific cases of criminal intelligence, the intelligence can be employed in various crimes such as drug dealing, contraband, gambling, prostitution, cargo theft, etc.

Crime intelligence is an essential tool in the prevention of crime in any country, provided that this capability is harnessed for the right purposes.
Unfortunately, in many parts of the world, it is used to fight factional battles, settle UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 20 scores, promote certain agendas, power grabs and ultimately to undermine democracy.

South Africa is unfortunately not spared of this wrath.

Our own Crime Intelligence’s vision has allegedly been at the centre of power struggles and allegations of criminality for as far back as 2011.
Crime Intelligence’s vision has shown a keen interest lately in the ...

[Inaudible.]

... following reports of power struggles amongst our top cops in South Africa.

The latest in the ongoing saga is the removal of Crime Intelligence boss, Lieutenant-General Jacobs from his position by National Commissioner Sithole.
Jacobs and others were suspended and hastily charged for alleged disciplinary transgressions, only to be informed later that his suspension was lifted, and that he may return back to work again.

Indeed he returned but this time in another role at the National Inspectorate.

This is a massive demotion, in any one’s book.

None of the team investing him and other suspects had any top security clearances.
Ironically, Jacobs was suspended on allegations of utilising slush fund to procure personal protective equipment, PPE, to safeguard personnel against UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 21 COVID-19 infections.

His investigators are also suspected of similar transgressions and face charges laid by Lieutenant- General Jacobs himself.

In their case, the looting was on a much larger scale.

Jacobs had apparently touched ...

[Inaudible.]


... by interfering in other people’s business in brackets, maybe doing so closed all gaps and stopped their ability to loot.

The National Commissioner Sithole himself had another case to answer.

He and other senior officers involved in R45 million “Nasrec grabber” saga has hit the headlines.

This item can be bought with just R7 million.

The High Court ruled that they were in bridge of their statutory obligations.
They attempted to hide behind classified documents even after the court ruled that the documents must be declassified and handed over to the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid.

This is a clearer attempt to pervert justice and must be investigated.

Of course one must ask, who is left to investigate?

The DA has called for the suspension of General Sithole.
The apparent ongoing infighting at the top and the Minister’s role in the process and his performance in general must also be reassessed to determine his suitability to remain in this post.

South Africans are still waiting to see justice done in UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 22 all issues surrounding Richard Mdluli.

He and others allegedly looted the Crime Intelligence “slush fund” administered by them, big time!
Many vehicles were bought overseas; trips were enjoyed by the entire families; luxury lives were lived ...

[Inaudible.]

... driven vehicles given to numerous relatives, all sponsored by South African taxpayers.

To date we haven’t seen any consequences for this looting – not one rand has been recovered.

And where is exactly is Richard Mdluli now?

He has skipped his court date, and done ... [Time expired.]

...

Thank you.
...

Thank you.

Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Chair, there can be no dispute or argument that the existing intelligent and security architecture and apparatus in South Africa are plagued by a level of disrespect for the rule of law and legal mandate.

This is only managed by the level of its own self-created inaptitude.

Cadre deployment and nepotism continue to flourish untacked within its rank.
The intelligence apparatus in this country sadly remains a weaponised and thoroughly captured pro-ruling- party platform, in which both internal factional and external ruling-party positions remain the only mandate.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 23 This entity is a law unto itself, is likely unaccountable to any of the democratic oversight processes and operates both independently and clandestinely, in pursuit of its goals.
It is compromised and does not adequately encapsulate the ...

[Inaudible.]

... that currently holds our intelligence service family within its grasps.

Of course, the intelligent apparatus of many states that were undergoing a transformative process, commenced upon the attainment of democracy.
The elephant in the room remains though that many senior officials in intelligence still operate under a revolutionary mind set, perhaps entrenched by the ruling party’s continuing narrative that the national democratic revolution remains a work in progress.

Such a narrative is not conducive to peaceful governance and intelligence apparatus.
Instead of responding, as it should be, to threats to the people of South Africa, both external and internal, it is still being utilised and deployed for factional ruling-party ends, and in some instances, for private individual ends.

Our intelligence apparatus has far too much room to evade the democratic checks and balances of multiparty oversight.
This UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 24 allows its off-mandate activities to continue undetected and without consequence.

We believe that an entire restructure of our intelligence apparatus and the oversight mechanisms accorded thereto is imperative and is long overdue.
Such restructuring must ensure the relevant constitutional and legislative prescripts, together with the attended democratic checks and balances, as well as consequence management for any unlawful or superior mandate activities.

I thank you.

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chair, we must ask ourselves what the thorn in the flesh is when we talk about accountability.

I want to say that the thorn in the flesh is the word “confidentiality”.
The moment you talk in certain committees and ask certain difficult questions to ensure accountability, specifically to Parliament, then you must hear that you cannot receive an answer because the matter is confidential.

If we want to make a difference, when we talk about accountability, regarding all the security services and specifically the State Security Agency, SSA, then we will have to look at the definition of confidentiality.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 25 You cannot have accountability, if you every time have to hear that the matter is confidential.

A good example is the hon Minister herself.

The question remains: Why did Minister Dlodlo complain about the fact that the Acting DG, Mr Jafta, had to go to the Zondo Commission and to testify.

Again, she wanted to hide behind confidentiality.

If there was nothing wrong, then she would have supported the Acting DG.
Afrikaans: Ek het ook ’n vraag in die Parlement gevra, oor wat die situasie met die vuurwapens is, wat volgens verslae by die Zondo-kommissie, eenvoudig binne die staatsveiligheidsagentskap misbruik is.

Ek het gevra oor vuurwapens, wat uitgedeel is aan persone, van wie daar nie behoorlike name gehou is nie, en waaroor daar byvoodbeeld nie behoorlike rekords gehou is of die wapens gebruik was in misdrywe nie.

Wat was die antwoord van die agb Minister op hierdie vraag in die Parlement?
English: So I posed the question in Parliament because I wanted to hold her accountable for the firearms distributed in the SSA.

Her reply was that a reply to the question in Parliament has been lodged.

Where?

Where has this answer been lodged?

I followed UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 26 up with the personnel of Parliament.

There is no such answer being lodged.

That is actually the Minister who does not comply to the Rules of Parliament.
Another question about accountability is – and I said it before – the former Minister, Sydney Mufamadi, compiled a comprehensive report on all the irregularities in the SSA.

It has been submitted to President Ramaphosa in 2018 – no action had been taken.

Afrikaans: As ons byvoorbeeld na sekere operasies gaan kyk, die ironie van Operasie Justisie, waar daar beweer word dat daar persoonlik geld vir die vorige Minister Mahlobo betaal is.

Wat word daaraan gedoen?


In Afrikaans is daar ’n spreekwoord wat sê: Die heler is so goed soos die steler.

English: If no actions are taken ... We don’t want to hear about this commission and that commission; we want to see people who are guilty behind bars in jails.

If we don’t do that and there is no action, then you are complicit to that crime.

I thank you.
I thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 27 Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the subject that we are discussing today is one of the most important that we have discussed so far, as it deals with the security of the country.

A country without a good Intelligence department is at the mercy of its enemies, whether internal or external.
The ACDP agrees that this nation desperately needs a professional intelligence capability that will respect and uphold the Constitution and the relevant legislative prescripts, especially in the light of the findings of the High Level Review Panel Report on the State Security Agency, SSA, and the allegations revealed at the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into allegations of state capture.
I believe one of the reasons crime is so high in our country is because we have an Intelligence that has neglected its mandate and that has focused on the ANC internal factional battles to promote one faction against the other.

In the process, the country remains vulnerable, as citizens are terrorised by criminals.
If our country had a very good intelligence that was focused on its core mandate, the country would not be losing billions of rands to corrupt individuals and companies, and would not UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 28 be hearing about billions of rands that are leaving the country illegally.

Our crime levels would be lower than they are, as criminal would be intercepted before crimes are committed.
The ANC seemed to have learned from the previous national party government how to abuse state resources, particularly resources allocated to the use of Intelligence operatives for the benefit of the country.

The State Security Agency has allegedly been running a campaign to influence the media.

It was called Project Wave and aimed at recruiting journalists and media houses to work with them.
The African News Agency, as an example, was paid R20 million in 2017 to train SSA analysts and interns to broadcast positive stories about the current government.

What is most concerning, however, is that State Security Agency officials accused of stealing R17 million from a SSA safe are still in their jobs.

In conclusion, the SSA serves no useful purpose and will simply poison the rest of government, if it keeps its kept intact.

Like a rotten appendix, the SSA must disband.


Let us UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 29 rather strengthen the Financial Intelligence Centre of SA, the Intelligence Powers of Sars, and the SAPS Crime Intelligence arm that also still needs to be beefed up and cleaned up.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr C H M SIBISI: Hon Chair, based on the prima facie evidence that we have heard from the Zondo commission and allegations that have surfaced on the corruption and looting of funds that were done at the State Security Agency, one is inclined to support the notion that some of these agencies must be dismantled.

All we ever see is a vicious cycle of corruption and looting of public funds and important Chapter 9 institution used as a personal [Inaudible.]

of politicians.
of politicians.

There are some of the allegations that have surfaced regarding the State Security Agency.

Former State Security Agency boss Arthur Fraser and Deputy–Director Thulani Dlomo were never vetted for security clearance by recognised [Inaudible.]

and Fraser’s file had a problem criminal record check.

Dlomo created a parallel structure that he controlled and used to clear people that he appointed.

The State Security Agency contracted private companies to do highly classified work.
The Zondo commission heard evidence that State Security Agency officials who were implicated in the robbery of the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 30 R17 million from the safe inside the State Security Agency complex were still holding their positions to this date.

Investigations said that the State Security Agency paid between R100 000 and R200 000 a month for apartheid [Inaudible.]

including a salary of R40 000 per month.


During the tenure of the three Ministers and three heads of intelligence at the State Security Agency, corruption that took place has robbed the fiscus of at least R10 billion and created political instability across government and civil institutions.
The general findings of the High-Level Review Panel on the State Security Agency which were as follows: the fundamentals of South Africa’s intelligence oversight mechanisms are sound, although, over the medium-term, they can be finessed with reference to recent international developments in this area; the oversight mechanisms have failed to act effectively in recent years, especially in relation to the infractions identified in this report, largely due to neglect or politicisation and factionalisation; whatever the architecture and specifics are for the intelligence oversight mechanisms, it is important that they should have the confidence and trust of the intelligence services in order to ensure the services play open cards with them.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 31 In its investigation the High-Level Review Panel discovered the following as what went wrong which necessitated its work.

From about 2005, with the emergence of the divisions, there has been a growing politicisation and factionalisation of the civilian intelligence community based on the factions in the ANC.
This has been partly aggravated by the fact that many of the leadership and management of the intelligence services have come from an ANC and liberation struggle background and have seemingly, in some cases, not been able to separate their professional responsibilities from their political inclinations....[Time expired.]

Adv B T BONGO: Hon Chair, I will not switch off the video because the connectivity from where I am is problematic.
Members of the executive present - I have seen the Minister Ayanda Dlodlo - and members of the Assembly in various platforms, this year marks 61 years since the Sharpville Massacre and 36 years since the Langa Massacre.

We commemorate the Human Rights Month under the theme: The year of unity, socioeconomic renewal and nation bulging.

In 1948, the United Nations defined in article 30, the human rights in the Universal Declaration.
It established universal human rights on the basis of human freedom, justice and peace.

Our Constitution is hailed across the world as one of the best in UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 32 the world.

The Bill of Rights preserved in Chapter 2 of our Constitution is a cornerstone of our constitutional and a representative democracy.
The Bill of Rights embeds the right of all people in our country in an enduring affirmation of a democratic values, human dignity, equality and freedom, The National Development Plan denotes building safer communities as a key objective and establishes the following as a vision for the country 2020.

Inj 2030, people living in South Africa should feel safer at home, at school, at work and enjoy their communities and live free of fear.
Women must walk freely in the streets and children must play safely outside.

The Police Service must be well-resourced, must be professional to safeguard and have highly skilled officers whose values are of high standard to protect the lives, property without discrimination and protect these communities against violence in our country.

The Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster aims to establish a stable, safe and thriving democratic dispensation.
It is in charge of ensuring that relevant clusters and relevant departments, Defence, Police, Correctional Services and Justice, put proper mechanisms that will work efficiently and effectively.

Therefore, a well-co- UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 33 ordinated JCPS cluster is critical for the realisation of the goal which we have set in the National Development Plan.
Chapter 11 of our Constitution, section 98, lays the following principle to govern national security in the Republic.

National security must reflect the resolve of South Africans as individuals and as a nation to live as equals in peace, harmony, to be free from fear and want of seek better live.

The resolve to live in peace and harmony preclude any citizen from particularly in an armed conflict nationally or internationally except provided in terms of Constitution or national legislation.
The national security must be in compliance with the international laws as guided by the international treaties.

The national security is subject to authority of Parliament and the national executive.

I must say, Chairperson, that wanting to divulge issues that relate to state security the manner in which members want us to do, is like wanting to read a will of a person who is still alive in front of everyone.
Security is a goal that can only be gained and sustained through consistency and must remain high on the list of national priority alongside the goals of reconstruction, growth and development.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 34 In the modern world for intelligence to be relevant it must serve the following purposes: first, to provide for the policy-maker timeous, critical and sometimes unique information to warn of potential risks and dangers; secondly, this is to allow a policy-maker to face unknown and best reduce uncertainty in critical decision-making process; thirdly, to identify all the international threats through assessing the real or potential competitors, their intentions and capabilities towards our country; and fourth, to assist good governance through providing honest criticism of government and errors that are happening on government as a guardian of peace, democracy and the guardian of the Constitution.
The mission of intelligence communities is to evaluate information with the following responsibilities in mind: to safeguard the Constitution of the Republic; uphold individual rights; promote and promote stability in our country; achieve national prosperity whilst contributing towards global peace; and promotion of South Africans’ ability to face foreign threats and competitiveness in the dynamic world that is growing as you see it.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 35 With regard to the control mechanism to regulate activities of civilians in the intelligence communities, a number of matters have already been put in place including legislation that has been enacted.
That includes allegiance to the Constitution, subordinate to the rule of law, clearly defined mandate, mechanisms for parliamentary oversight which, I think we have already put, budget and control and independence Inspector- General.

Legislation has been passed already to ensure that we safeguard some of these things.
On the matters that we have taken there is a structure called the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, that seeks to bring all intelligent departments with intelligent mandate together to co-ordinate mechanisms that will make sure that every aspect of intelligence is co-ordinated in an intertwined manner linked with the policy-maker and the intelligent community.
This structure is expected to do the following: advise on threats or potential threats to the country; advise on policy formulation on intelligence-related issues; co-ordinate national strategy; and avoid and eliminate unhealthy completion that may be coming.

So to say that the Intelligence has allowed and paid people like De Kock and so on, you know has a historical mandate.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 36 These are the people who refused to go to commissions of enquiry and handover files.

When they come out of prison they still have all the information that they are not expected to have.

We are a responsible state which tries as far as possible to make sure it gives a balance between what has happened in the past and atrocities that were caused.
In the other hand the balance with what we need to do with all the legislations that we have already passed and provided to ensure that we deal with the problems that have been raised by the commission led by the former Minister Sydney Mufamadi.

I think as the ANC we are taking that report and studying it.

Not that it is sitting somewhere.

Its implementation is on an incremental basis because we are still interacting with the past rot which was caused by the apartheid system.
Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, there are a few issues that I would like to address: On the issue that was raised by hon Groenewald, let us stick to truth.

If we do not know the truth, then let us seek the truth because the reply was received by Ms Carmelita van de Bergh at the Joint Standing Committee On Intelligence after the oral session of 04 March 2021.

So, that information is there.


UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 37 I would like to really stick to the debate and speak on entrenching a professional and human service in the intelligence community.

But before I do that, I would also like to address a few issues that were raised by hon Kohler Barnard.
Hon Kohler Barnard, through you Chairperson, one of the recommendations of the commission reads, “Urgently institute forensic and other investigations by the competent authorities into the breaches of financial and other controls identified by some of the information available to the Panel and other investigations ...” Now, we have appointed a forensic firm to do these investigations.

I am not sure what more is required when she says that we cannot investigate ourselves.
For the longest of time we have been investigating ourselves.

It is only now that I have instituted and appointed this forensic company.

We are also collaborating with the South African Police Service, Saps, and the Hawks in our work of ensuring that we deal with these issues of mismanagement of funds, financial misconduct and other misconducts.
We are not only looking at that which was ventilated at the Zondo Commission; we are looking at financial misconduct and other forms of misconduct that have been seen over time and not nit-picking on certain issues that UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 38 have risen over time.

So, be rest assured, hon Kohler Barnard, I am looking into these matters and I am implementing the High-Level Panel Review report.
Also, it is not true to say that R7 billion was looted by the State Security Agency.

It depends on who speaks and what day of the week it is that the figure goes from 9 billion to 7 billion to 9 million.

I have the Auditor-General’s letter which says that that is not correct; the figure is 9 million and not 9 billion or 7 billion.

I have the audit and risk committee’s report which also speaks to that issue.
I am not going to entertain some of the other peripheral issues but I will just confine myself to entrenching professional and human service in the intelligence community where our mandate is derived from section 209 of our Constitution which empowers the President to establish intelligence structures and to designate a member of the executive to assume political responsibility for the control and direction of these services.
Using legislation passed in this House such as the National Intelligence Act, Intelligence Services Act, Intelligence Oversight Act, among others, the designated member of the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 39 executive bares an important responsibility to advance, protect and defend the integrity of the constitutional order.
To succeed in fulfilling this mandate state security requires a dedicated and professional membership which is committed not only to the ideals of our constitutional order but the integrity, stability and security of our country and its citizens.

Not only do we need a professional cohort of dedicated members to advance our mandate as an agency, we also need the requisite technical and financial capability to do so.
This includes the revamping and strengthening of systems in the business process of the agency to enable an effective environment for the delivery of our constitutional mandate.

In this regard, we have an insistent responsibility to focus on skills, mind-set and capabilities of our members and to invest and deploy advance technologies in the business of conducting our intelligence work.
It is tried that the world has moved on technology and otherwise, and we cannot keep up with the pace, we might as well forget about our ambition of becoming a world-class intelligence service.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 40 This is evidently a huge assignment and journey for the agency, and as the adage goes, “A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.” For us the first step is to spring clean our house.
This means that in addition to building the requisite capacities, the agency needs to improve its planning, reporting, accountability and overall performance, and this is work in progress — it has begun.

We must do this through policy directive and developments or strategic priorities, operational planning, performance monitoring, escalated accountability and learning as well as ongoing training of our members.
I put emphasis on accountability and learning for these two go beyond normal human capital management but reflect a commitment to individual and organisational performance improvement.
Paramount to all these efforts is the achievement or percent of national pride in loyalty, outcomes, co-ordination, financial probity and compliance, corrective interventions, career pathing, ongoing professional development as well as institutionalising excellence regarding the response to the turnover of current vulnerabilities into future risks that put our national security at risk.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 41 We cannot do what we do without cleaning and aligning our house.

This year will demand of the intelligence service an improved image towards its professional conduct and output.

This includes adhering to the important policy and legislative prescripts of the public service such as the process of disclosure of financial interests by all members of the agency.
We have to move with speed in ensuring that our members comply with the financial disclosures regime as we have committed to the Public Service Commission recently and not seek exemption in this regard.

This also goes with the need to finalise a dispensation with the Auditor-General regarding the audit process of the agency.
We must find a way within the confines of policy and the law to navigate the balance between the need for accountability and imperatives of secrecy which is an embodiment of our intelligence work.

This is also true with regard to the vetting of our members and the conduct of periodic lifestyle audits in the agency in government as a whole.

One of the strategic threats, which if not attended timeously, has a potential to undermine our constitutional order is the laxity with which we conduct vetting.
This opens up our institutions as fertile ground for UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 42 financial misconduct and other misdemeanours which compromise the delivery of services and dent the image of our government and the state, thereby short-changing South Africans.
Our efforts are geared towards a vetting system that is both comprehensive and expeditious to avoid further erosion of our institution and by extension our constitutional order and stability.

We have to insist on a public service and an agency whose members are accountable, nonpartisan and who pursue high standards of proficiency in their work.

Members of the agency are expected to respect the profession and not act as though they are above the law.
Paramount to this code is loyalty to the Constitution and attendant institutions.

The allegations that emerged from the testimonies at the Zondo Commission should never revisit our intelligence again if our constitutional democracy is to remain intact.
In this regard and despite what is in the public domain a great deal of work is underway to implement the recommendations of the High-Level Review Panel regarding allegations of wrongdoing by our members in the agency and the Pikoli and Mathews reports before it.
The agency has, to date, appointed a firm to conduct forensic investigations into these allegations and is collaborating with law enforcement agencies such as the Hawks UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 43 in other broader areas of investigations.

All reported transgressions will be pursued and all wrongdoing, even by those not mentioned in the commission, will be investigated and that process has already begun.
I am convinced that the people who work tirelessly seek to and have demonstrated a desire to be the best version the intelligence profession demands of them.

These are neither influenced by unsavoury political and societal postures and narratives that undermine the rule of law, good governance and accountability.

As a courtesy we have institutions and values enshrined in the Constitution that should regulate the organisation of our society.
All of us would admit that as a society we continuously endeavour to be the best version the Constitution envisions, but as people, organisations and institutions we continue to assess ourselves against the backdrop and fundamental tenets of our noble goals.
It is important to reflect on the efforts towards the development of the National Security Strategy of our country which is vital in ensuring our constitutional democracy is UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 44 protected and preserved.

This work is underway and it is being led by National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee.
In this regard it is also important to highlight the role of the people in this exercise because the Constitution itself places the people at the centre of our national security.

This strategy will promote the conditions for the implementation of the guiding principles of the National Security Strategy as espoused in section 198 of the Constitution and will also provide for the promotion of territorial security.
The development of the strategy entails broadening the stakeholder consultation to include members of the public.

These consultations will include civic organisations, private sector, religious formations, knowledge institutions, non- governmental organisations, organisations representing emigrants, professionals of all sectors, experts in various fields, formal and informal traders, trade unions and transport industry, ordinary people in the street and all other sectors of our country.
We believe that a people that is informed and aware is a people that will be ready to defend the country, promote its values and comply with its laws.

Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 45 Mr S J F MARAIS: Chairperson, in any organization reliable and reputable information is important to assure the best decisions are taken.
This is also relevant for the government and most certainly the executive and the defence force to assure the best interest of our country and our citizens are served.

Subordination and compliance to, especially section 200 and 204 of our Constitution, is nonnegotiable.
Defence intelligence in co-operation with other intelligence agencies has an important role to fulfil in a transparent, accountable, predictable and patriotic way in full compliance with legislation, for instance the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA and the regulations guiding the Auditor-General’s function.

Both the government, including the executive, and the Department of Defence must benefit from and apply the best possible information to comply with section 202 of the Constitution.
Reports over the last years unfortunately question the quality and reliability of the information gathered and made available UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 46 to the Commander-In-Chief, Minister and the Military Command Council.

The year 2020 was a year of disaster, embarrassment and misfortune.

What was the role of defence intelligence?

Were they focused on the correct priorities and has relevant intelligence collection happened?
Or have they as the executive and the defence leadership refused to pay attention to the intelligence provided to them?

If they had, surely the Minister of Defence would not so often have used the excuse that she did not know the facts.
A few disasters and embarrassments I referred to include the threat and actual theft of ammunition at the Lyttelton Tek Base, the actual information that led to the death of Collins Khosa, the dangers and unlawfulness to abuse the Falcon 900 for ANC purposes to Zimbabwe, the illegal and unauthorised smuggling of Cuban medicine by the defence force, the pace of the dilapidation of the defence force capabilities and breach of section 202 of the Constitution, the urgent need for increased and improved border safeguarding capabilities, the unacceptable destruction of the silver mine strategic communication capabilities.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 47 Who were held responsible and accountable?

How much money was recovered?

We know there special or - as I referred to – the secret defence account has been looted and abused for years with little consequences.

This is ring fenced accumulated fund for the acquisition and maintenance of strategic defence equipment.
The XDA is now totally underfunded and cannot meet the bare minimum requirements to meet our strategic defence equipment capabilities; to the detriment of our soldiers and our citizens.

The Auditor-General complains every year that certain parts of the special defence account are classified, which makes it impossible to fully audit it.

It has been drained without consequences and National Treasury is reluctant to provide additional funding.

It is no surprise to see disastrous budget cuts.


No accountability is given to the portfolio committee.

It was reported that R4 billion by defence intelligence was lost to wasteful and fruitful expenditure.

Who were held responsible and accountable?

How much money was recovered?

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 48 The fact that we have a war in Mozambique should tell you how important both the defence force and a credible intelligence are.
The ANC, the President, the Minister and Chief of the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, are responsible for the dilapidation of our defence readiness and capabilities and the poor image of defence intelligence.

Do we really have a Minister of State Security who knows so little about defence matters and the Minister of Defence who knows so little about intelligence matters?

If so, a disaster might well be on our doorstep.


Add to that, the fact that the Commander-In-Chief has been silent on critical national defence and intelligence challenges and matters of concern to our nation’s interest; and we have a catastrophe in the making.

A rogue intelligence agency with little or no accountability is a major threat to our democracy.
Similarly, the Ministers of State Security and Defence, as the political oversight executives who cannot offer sustainable solutions, could also be threats to our democracy.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (VIRTUAL) THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2021 Page: 49 We need an independent review to restructure our intelligence agencies to secure proper oversight and good accountability.

I thank you.

The Mini-Plenary rose at 15:11.