Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698940095217.pdf (Trinidad and Tobago)
SECOND REPORT OF THE STANDING FINANCE COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES on the Consideration of Proposals for the Supplementation of Appropriation for the fiscal year 2019 FOURTH SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT (2018/2019) HOR PAPER NO: 28/2019 PARL NO: 4/3/13 Ordered To Be Printed By the House of Representatives Standing Finance Committee The Standing Finance Committee was established under House of Representatives Standing Order 82(1) to consider the Estimates and the Appropriation Bill.
House of Representatives Standing Order 87(1) also states that, “The Standing Finance Committee shall consider and report on all proposals for the expenditure from public revenue or other funds which are not included in the Annual Estimates, including proposals for supplementary and unforeseen expenditure.” Publication An electronic copy of this report can be found on the Parliament website using the following link: http://www.ttparliament.org/committee_business.php?mid=17&id=219&pid=28 Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to: The Secretary Standing Finance Committee Office of the Parliament Levels G-9, Tower D The Port of Spain International Waterfront Centre 1A Wrightson Road Port of Spain Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Tel: (868) 624-7275 Ext 2250, 2373; Fax: (868) 625-4672 Email: standingfinance@ttparliament.org Date Presented in the House of Representatives: May 10, 2019 1 Contents THE COMMITTEE ................................................................................................................................................... 3 MANDATE OF THE COMMITTEE .................................................................................................................................... 3 MEMBERSHIP ................................................................................................................................................................. 3 MEETING ........................................................................................................................................................................ 3 VARIATION...................................................................................................................................................................... 3 SUPPLEMENTATION ....................................................................................................................................................... 4 RECOMMENDATION ....................................................................................................................................................... 5 APPENDIX I .............................................................................................................................................................. 7 REQUESTS FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FROM MINISTRIES/DEPARTMENTS ................................................... 7 APPENDIX II .......................................................................................................................................................... 10 MINUTES OF MEETING ................................................................................................................................................ 10 APPENDIX III ............................................................................................................................................................ 20 VERBATIM NOTES ....................................................................................................................................................... 20 APPENDIX IV ......................................................................................................................................................... 72 SCHEDULE RELATING TO THE SUPPLEMENTATION OF ESTIMATES 2019................................................................. 72 APPENDIX V .......................................................................................................................................................... 93 PROPOSALS FOR THE SUPPLEMENTATION ................................................................................................................. 93 OF APPROPRIATION FOR FISCAL YEAR 2019 .............................................................................................................. 93 2 THE COMMITTEE Mandate of the Committee 1.
The Standing Finance Committee is established by House of Representatives Standing Order 82(1) of the House of Representatives Standing Orders.

It is the duty of the Committee to consider the Estimates and the Appropriation Bill.

The Committee is also empowered by House of Representatives Standing Order 87(1) to consider and report on all proposals for expenditure which are not included in the Annual Estimates including proposals for supplementary and unforeseen expenditure.

Membership 2.
Membership 2.

In accordance with the House of Representatives Standing Order 82(1), this Committee is a Committee of the Whole House of Representatives and is chaired by the Speaker.

Meeting 3.

The Committee held a public meeting on Wednesday May 08, 2019 at 1:30 p.m.

The Minutes of the Meeting and the Verbatim Notes are attached at Appendices II and III respectively.

4.
4.

The purpose of this meeting was to consider proposals for the supplementation of the appropriation provided in the Appropriation (Financial Year 2019) Act, 20181.

The proposals for supplementation are at Appendix V. The Schedule relating to the supplementation of estimates for fiscal 2019 is at Appendix IV.

Variation 5.
Variation 5.

The Committee noted that a Variation of Appropriation was required to meet capital expenditure in the sum of Twenty Million, One Hundred and Eighty Seven Thousand and Seventy-One Dollars ($20,187,071) in Table 1.

1 Act No.
1 Act No.

16 of 2018, the Appropriation (Financial Year 2019) Act, 2018, http://www.ttparliament.org/legislations/a2018- 16g.pdf 3 Table 1 Variation of Heads of Expenditure for fiscal year 2019 Variation Head of Expenditure 18 Ministry of Finance 43 Ministry of Works and Transport Increase $ 20,187,071 Decrease $ 20,187,071 Total Estimate 20,187,071 20,187,071 Supplementation 6.
The Standing Finance Committee noted the supplementation to the Appropriation for fiscal year 2019 in the sum of One Thousand, Eight Hundred and Thirty Nine Million, One Hundred and Eighty- Nine Thousand, Three Hundred Dollars ($1,839,189,300) is required to meet:  Personnel Expenditure - $18,500,000  Goods and Services - $371,240,800  Minor Equipment Purchases - $13,580,000  Current Transfers and Subsidies - $1,144,448,500  Current Transfers to Statutory Boards and Similar Bodies - $230,000,000  Development Programme - $61,420,000 7.
The Committee noted that it was necessary to have a Supplementation of Appropriation of resources to fund urgent and critical Recurrent and Capital Expenditure in areas where insufficient or no allocation was provided.

The source of these additional funds is the Consolidated Fund.

8.
8.

The Standing Finance Committee considered and approved the supplementation to the Appropriation for fiscal year 2019 in the sum of One Thousand, Eight Hundred and Thirty Nine Million, One Hundred and Eighty-Nine Thousand, Three Hundred Dollars ($1,839,189,300).

The details of the Supplementation are provided in Table 2.
4 Table 2 Supplementation of Heads of Expenditure for fiscal year 2019 Head of Expenditure Judiciary 03 06 Service Commissions 13 Office of the Prime Minster 17 Personnel Department 18 Ministry of Finance 20 Pensions and Gratuities 22 Ministry of National Security 23 Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs 26 Ministry of Education 30 Ministry of Labour and Small Enterprise Development 39 Ministry of Public Utilities 42 Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government 43 Ministry of Works and Transport 61 Ministry of Housing and Urban Development 64 Trinidad and Tobago Police Service 65 Ministry of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs 70 Ministry of Communications 78 Ministry of Social Development and Family Services Total Amount $ 57,682,800 3,000,000 12,000,000 2,000,000 729,187,071 18,000,000 207,000,000 50,000,000 50,000,000 39,258,000 200,000,000 39,000,000 65,512,929 48,000,000 75,000,000 6,000,000 10,000,000 227,548,500 1,839,189,300 Recommendation Supplementation 9.
The Committee recommends the Supplementation of Appropriation for fiscal year 2019 in the sum of One Thousand, Eight Hundred and Thirty Nine Million, One Hundred and Eighty-Nine Thousand, Three Hundred Dollars ($1,839,189,300).

10.

The Committee respectfully submits this Report for the consideration of the House of Representatives.

Respectfully Submitted, Sgd.

Hon.


Bridgid Mary Annisette-George, MP Chairman May 10, 2019 5 APPENDICES 6 APPENDIX I Requests for Additional Information from Ministries/Departments Head 03 Judiciary 02/001/08 – Rent/Lease – Office Accommodation and Storage 1.

Provide the locations of the rented offices and the respective rental cost.

2.

How many months overdue is the rent for each property?

Head 06 – Service Commission 02/001/43 – Security Services 3.

Provide the name of the security service provider.


02/003/28 – Other Contracted Services 4.

Provide the assessment process for Permanent Secretaries.

5.

Provide the process for the selection of Deputy Permanent Secretaries.

6.

Provide a breakdown of the allocation related to the assessment for Permanent Secretaries and the selection of Deputy Permanent Secretaries.

Head 13 – Office of the Prime Minister 04/005/03 – Contribution to Non-Profit Institutions (Children’s Homes) 7.
Provide a breakdown of the payments to be made to each Private Community Residence.

Head 17 – Personnel Department 09/005/06/F/002 – Customization and Outfitting of a new office building at No.3 Alexandra Street, St. Clair 8.

Provide the breakdown of the allocation based on the scope of works.

Head 18 - Ministry of Finance 04/009/110- Infrastructure Development Fund 9.

Provide a breakdown of the exit costs attached to the closure of Petrotrin.
Head 20 – Pensions and Gratuities 04/007/10 – Gratuities to Technical and Professional Contract Officers from the number of contract officers 10.

Provide to benefit the allocation by Ministry/Department.

11.

Based on the number of contract officers that qualified for pensions and gratuity at the end of fiscal 2018, provide the percentage of contract officers that were affected by the recordkeeping issues which delay the reconciliation of pensions and leave records.
Head 23 – Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs 02/001/23 – Fees 12.

Provide a breakdown of the $15,000,000 deemed as bona fide legal fees.

7 13.

Provide the disaggregated allocation for forensic investigations from local attorneys.

14.

Provide the disaggregated allocation for forensic investigations from foreign attorneys.

Head 42 – Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government 01/001/01 – Salaries and COLA 01/001/04 – Allowances – Monthly Paid Officers 15.
Provide a breakdown of the number of Municipal Police Officers to be deployed to each Regional Corporation.

Head 26 – Ministry of Education 02/001/22 – Short Term Employment 16.

Provide the number of invigilators that will be paid from the allocation.

17.

Provide the number of invigilators hired for this fiscal year.

04/011/02 – National Schools Dietary Services Ltd. 18.

Provide the number of caterers that are owed outstanding balances.

19.
19.

Provide a breakdown of the allocation that will be paid to each supplier and caterer.

20.

Provide the caterer cost per lunch and per breakfast.

Head 30 – Ministry of Labour and Small Enterprise Development 02/005/17 Training 21.

Provide the number of On the Job Trainees that are placed in the Public Sector and the Private Sector.

22.

Provide the number of On the Job Trainees that registered via each office in Trinidad for fiscal 2019.
Head 43 – Ministry of Works and Transport 04/011/20 – NIDCO – Charter of an Inter-Island Passenger Vessel 23.

What is the infrastructural cost to accommodate the high speed passenger vessel?

Head 61 – Ministry of Housing and Urban Development 004/08/D/075 – Rehabilitation and Maintenance of HDC Rental Apartments and Housing Units 24.

Provide a list of the particulars areas of the units/estates for the allocation.

25.

Provide a list of the contractors engaged and outstanding payments for the allocation.
004/08/E/236 – Regularization and Regeneration of Communities – Greater POS Region 26.

What are the specific areas and projects for the allocation?

Head 65 – Ministry of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs 03/002/01 – Vehicles 27.

How many procured vehicles will be allocated to Washington?

28.

How many procured vehicles will be allocated to London?

29.

What types of vehicles will be procured?

30.


Are these vehicles being procured for the exclusive use of the Ambassador or High Commissioner at the two locations?

8 09/005/06/F/004 – Refurbishment of Chancery, Embassy in Washington 31.

When was the decision taken to undertake the refurbishment works?

09/005/06/F/064 – Refurbishment of the Chancery of the High Commission in London 32.

When was the decision taken to undertake the refurbishment works?
Head 78 – Ministry of Social Development and Family Services 04/007/02 – Senior Citizens Grant 33.

What was the number of flood victims and amount allocated to victims from St. John’s Trace and Akbar Trace area?

34.

How many of the 9,526 applicants affected by the October / November 2018 flooding are located in the constituency of Naparima and how many applicants have been approved?

35.
35.

How many of the 9,526 applicants affected by the October / November 2018 flooding are located in the constituency of Oropouche West and how many applicants have been approved?

9 APPENDIX II Minutes of Meeting STANDING FINANCE COMMITTEE FOURTH SESSION (2018/2019), ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT MINUTES OF THE MEETING HELD ON WEDNESDAY MAY 08, 2019 AT 1:30 P.M.
IN THE PARLIAMENT CHAMBER, MEZZANINE FLOOR, OFFICE OF THE PARLIAMENT, TOWER D, INTERNATIONAL WATERFRONT CENTRE, 1A WRIGHTSON ROAD, PORT OF SPAIN Members of the Standing Finance Committee Present 1.

Hon.

Bridgid Annisette-George, MP 2.

Hon.

Dr. Keith Rowley, MP 3.

Hon.

Faris Al-Rawi, MP 4.

Hon.

Colm Imbert, MP 5.

Hon.

Stuart Young, MP 6.

Hon.

Terrence Deyalsingh, MP 7.

Hon.

Randall Mitchell, MP 8.

Hon.

Shamfa Cudjoe, MP - - - - - - - - 9.

Hon.

Anthony Garcia, MP - 10.

Hon.


Cherrie-Ann Crichlow-Cockburn, MP - 11.

Mr. Esmond Forde, MP 12.

Hon.

Maj. Gen.

(Ret.

)Edmund Dillon, MP 13.

Hon.

Ayanna Webster-Roy, MP 14.

Hon.


Dr. Nyan Gadsby-Dolly, MP - - - - 10 Chairman Prime Minister (Member for Diego Martin West) Attorney General (Member for San Fernando West) Minister of Finance (Member for Diego Martin North/East) Minister of National Security, Minister of Communications, Minister in the Office of the Prime Minister (Member for Port of Spain North/St.
Ann’s West) Minister of Health (Member for St Joseph) Minister of Tourism (Member for San Fernando East) Minister of Sport and Youth Affairs (Member for Tobago West) Minister of Education (Member for Arima) Minister of Social Development and Family Services (Member for Lopinot/Bon Air West) Deputy Speaker (Member for Tunapuna) Minister of Housing and Urban Development (Member for Point Fortin) Minister of State in the Office of the Prime Minister (Member for Tobago East) Minister of Community Development Culture, 15.
Hon.

Marlene Mc Donald, MP - and the Arts (Member for St. Ann’s East) Minister of Public Administration (Member for Port of Spain South) 16.

Hon.

Dr. Lovell Francis, MP 17.

Mrs. Glenda Jennings-Smith, MP 18.

Ms. Nicole Olivierre, MP 19.

Brig.

Gen.

(Ret.)

Ancil Antoine, MP 20.

Mr. Adrian Leonce, MP 21.

Mr. Darryl Smith, MP 22.

Mr. Maxie Cuffie, MP 23.

Mr. David Lee, MP 24.

Mr. Rodney Charles, MP 25.

Dr. Surujrattan Rambachan, MP 26.

Mr. Fazal Karim, MP 27.
Dr. Bhoendradatt Tewarie, MP - - - - - - - - - - - - Minister of State in the Ministry of Education (Member for Moruga/Tableland) Parliamentary Secretary in the Ministry of National Security (Member for Toco/Sangre Grande) Parliamentary Secretary in the Ministry of Energy and Energy Industries (Member for La Brea) Member for D’Abadie/O’Meara Member for Laventille East/Morvant Member for Diego Martin Central Parliamentary Secretary in the Ministry of Public Administration (Member for La Horquetta/Talparo) Member for Pointe-a-Pierre Member for Naparima Member for Tabaquite Member for Chaguanas East Member for Caroni Central 28.
Dr. Roodal Moonilal, MP - Member for Oropouche East 29.

Mrs. Christine Newallo-Hosein, MP 30.

Dr. Tim Gopeesingh, MP 31.

Mrs. Vidia Gayadeen-Gopeesingh, MP 32.

Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP 33.

Mr. Barry Padarath, MP 34.

Dr. Lackram Bodoe, MP 35.

Mr. Rushton Paray, MP 36.

Ms. Ramona Ramdial, MP 37.


Mr. Ganga Singh, MP Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla Member for Caroni East Member for Oropouche West Member for Couva South Member for Princes Town Member for Fyzabad Member for Mayaro Member for Couva North Member for Chaguanas West - - - - - - - - - 11 EXCUSED 1.

Hon.

Camille Robinson-Regis, MP 2.

Hon.

Kamla Persad-Bissessar SC, MP - - Minister of Planning and Development (Member for Arouca/Maloney) Leader of the Opposition (Member for Siparia) ABSENT 1.

Hon.
Hon.

Fitzgerald Hinds, MP - Minister in the Ministry of the Attorney General 2.

Mr. Prakash Ramadhar, MP 3.

Dr. Fuad Khan , MP and Legal Affairs (Member for Laventille West) Member for St. Augustine Member for Barataria/San Juan - - ALSO PRESENT 1.

Sen. the Hon.

Kazim Hosein - Minister of Rural Development and Local Government 2.

Sen. the Hon.

Jennifer Baptiste-Primus 3.

Sen. the Hon.

Robert Le Hunte 4.

Sen. the Hon.

Rohan Sinanan 5.

Sen. the Hon.


Dennis Moses COMMENCEMENT 1.1 The meeting was called to order at 1:30 p.m. - - - - Minister of Labour and Small Enterprise Development Minister of Public Utilities Minister of Works and Transport Minister of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs 1.2 The Chairman indicated that in accordance with Standing Order 82 (6) and 87, a meeting of the Standing Finance Committee was convened to consider proposals for the Supplementation of Appropriation for the fiscal year 2019.
1.3 Members were advised that in accordance with Standing Order 45(1) the speaking time in Standing Finance Committee shall not exceed five (5) minutes on each intervention.

1.4 The procedure for the consideration of the Heads of Expenditure was outlined.

1.5 The Committee noted that a Variation of Appropriation from Head 43 Ministry of Works and Transport to Head 18 Ministry of Finance was required to meet capital expenditure in the sum of $20,187,071.

The Member for Chaguanas West sought clarification.
The Minister of Finance provided an explanation.

PROPOSALS FOR THE SUPPLEMENTATION OF APPROPRIATION FOR THE FISCAL YEAR 2019 Head 03: Judiciary 2.1 The Chairman announced Head 03, Judiciary, a supplementation of $57,682,800.00.

12 2.2 The Attorney General was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.3 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 03, Judiciary be supplemented by the sum of $57,682,800.00.
2.4 The Members for Oropouche West, Caroni East and Couva South sought clarification from the Minister.

Thereafter the Attorney General and the Minister of Finance provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.5 The question was put and agreed that Head 03, Judiciary be supplemented by the sum of $57,682,800.00.

Head 06: Service Commissions 2.6 The Chairman announced Head 06: Service Commissions, a supplementation of $3,000,000.00.
2.7 The Minister of Finance was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.8 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 06, Service Commissions be supplemented by the sum of $3,000,000.00.

2.9 The Members for Cumuto/Manzanilla and Tabaquite sought clarification.

The Minister of Finance provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.10 The question was put and agreed that Head 06, Service Commissions be supplemented by the sum of $3,000,000.00.
Head 13: Office of the Prime Minister 2.11 The Chairman announced Head 13: Office of the Prime Minister, a supplementation of $12,000,000.00.

2.12 The Minister of State in the Office of the Prime Minister was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.13 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 13, Office of the Prime Minister be supplemented by the sum of $12,000,000.00.
2.14 The Members for Princes Town, Cumuto/Manzanilla, Tabquite, Couva South, Caroni Central and Oropouche West sought clarification.

The Minister of State in the Office of the Prime Minister, Minister of Finance and the Attorney General provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.15 The question was put and agreed that Head 13, Office of the Prime Minister be supplemented by the sum of $12,000,000.00.
Head 17: Personnel Department 2.16 The Chairman announced Head 17: Personnel Department, a supplementation of $2,000,000.00.

13 2.17 The Minister of Public Administration was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.18 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 17, Personnel Department be supplemented by the sum of $2,000,000.00.
2.19 The Members for Fyzabad, Princes Town, Cumuto/Manzanilla, Oropouche East, Tabaquite and Couva South sought clarification from the Minister.

Thereafter the Minister of Public Administration and the Minister of Finance provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.20 The question was put and agreed that Head 17, Personnel Department has been supplemented by the sum of $2,000,000.00.
Head 18: Ministry of Finance 2.21 The Chairman announced Head 18: Ministry of Finance, a supplementation of $729,187,071.00.

2.22 The Minister of Finance was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.23 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 18, Ministry of Finance be supplemented by the sum of $729,187,071.00.

2.24 The Members for Tabaquite, Caroni Central, Caroni East and Couva South sought clarification from the Minister.
The Minister of Finance provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.25 The question was put and agreed that Head 18, Ministry of Finance be supplemented by the sum of $729,187,071.00.

Head 20: Pensions and Gratuities 2.26 The Chairman announced Head 20: Pensions and Gratuities, a supplementation of $18,000,000.00.

2.27 The Minister of Finance was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.
2.28 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 20, Pensions and Gratuities be supplemented by the sum of $18,000,000.00.

2.29 The Members for Princes Town, Cumuto/Manzanilla, Chaguanas East, Tabaquite, Naparima, Pointe- a-Pierre, Couva South sought clarification from the Minister.

The Minister of Finance provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.30 The question was put and agreed that Head 20, Pensions and Gratuities be supplemented by the sum of $18,000,000.00.
Head 23: Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs 2.31 The Chairman announced Head 23: Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs, a supplementation of $50,000,000.00.

14 2.32 The Attorney General was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.33 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 23, Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs be supplemented by the sum of $50,000,000.00.
2.34 The Members for Oropouche East, Oropouche West, Couva South and Caroni East sought from the Minister.

The Attorney General provided an explanation for the clarification supplementation.

2.35 The question was put and agreed that Head 23, Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs be supplemented by the sum of $50,000,000.00.

Head 22: Ministry of National Security 2.36 The Chairman announced Head 22: Ministry of National Security, a supplementation of $207,000,000.00.
2.37 The Minister of National Security was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.38 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 22, Ministry of National Security be supplemented by the sum of $207,000,000.00.

2.39 The Members for Oropouche East, Chaguanas East, Caroni Central, Naparima and Caroni East sought clarification from the Minister.

The Minister of National Security and the Minister of Finance provided an explanation for the supplementation.
2.40 The question was put and agreed that Head 22, Ministry of National Security be supplemented by the sum of $207,000,000.00.

Head 42: Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government 2.41 The Chairman announced Head 42: Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government, a supplementation of $39,000,000.00.

2.42 The Minister of Rural Development and Local Government was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.
2.43 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 42, Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government be supplemented by the sum of $39,000,000.00.

2.44 The Members for Princes Town, Couva South, Chaguanas East, Pointe-a-Pierre, Couva North and Central sought clarification from the Minister.

The Minister of Rural Development and the Development and the Minister of Finance provided an explanation for Caroni Local supplementation.
2.45 The question was put and agreed that Head 42, Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government be supplemented by the sum of $39,000,000.00.

Head 64: Trinidad and Tobago Police Service 15 2.46 The Chairman announced Head 64: Trinidad and Tobago Police Service, a supplementation of $75,000,000.00.

2.47 The Minister of Finance was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.
2.48 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 64, Trinidad and Tobago Police Service be supplemented by the sum of $75,000,000.00.

2.49 The Members for Naparima, Princes Town, Caroni Central, Mayaro, Pointe-a-Pierre, Oropouche West, and Couva South, sought clarification from the Minister.

The Minister of National Security provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.50 The question was put and agreed that Head 64, Trinidad and Tobago Police Service be supplemented by the sum of $75,000,000.00.
Head 26: Ministry of Education 2.51 The Chairman announced Head 26: Ministry of Education, a supplementation of $50,000,000.00.

2.52 The Minister of Education was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.53 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 26, Ministry of Education be supplemented by the sum of $50,000,000.00.

2.54 The Members for Princes Town, Chaguanas East, Cumuto/Manzanilla, Caroni East and Couva South sought clarification from the Minister.
The Minister of Education provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.55 The question was put and agreed that Head 26, Ministry of Education be supplemented by the sum of $50,000,000.00.

Head 30: Ministry of Labour and Small Enterprise Development 2.56 The Chairman announced Head 30, Ministry of Labour and Small Enterprise Development, a supplementation of $39,258,000.00.
2.57 The Minister of Labour and Small Enterprise Development was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.58 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 30, Ministry of Labour and Small Enterprise Development be supplemented by the sum of $39,258,000.00.

2.59 The Members for Chaguanas East, Caroni East and Couva South, sought clarification from the Minister.
The Minister of Labour and Small Enterprise Development and the Minister of Finance provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.60 The question was put and agreed that Head 30, Ministry of Labour and Small Enterprise Development be supplemented by the sum of $39,258,000.00.

16 Head 39: Ministry of Public Utilities 2.61 The Chairman announced Head 39: Ministry of Public Utilities, a supplementation of $200,000,000.00.
2.62 The Minister of Public Utilities was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.63 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 39, Ministry of Public Utilities be supplemented by the sum of $200,000,000.00.

2.64 The Members for Couva North and Caroni East sought clarification from the Minister.

The Minister of Public Utilities provided an explanation for the supplementation.
2.65 The question was put and agreed that Head 39, Ministry of Public Utilities be supplemented by the sum of $200,000,000.00.

SUSPENSION 2.66 The Committee suspended for tea at 4:23 p.m. RESUMPTION 2.67 The Committee resumed at 4:50 p.m. Head 43: Ministry of Works and Transport 2.68 The Chairman announced Head 43: Ministry of Works and Transport, a supplementation of $65,512,929.00.

2.69 The Minister of Works and Transport was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.
2.70 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 43, Ministry of Works and Transport be supplemented by the sum of $65,512,929.00.

2.71 The Members for Couva North, Mayaro, Pointe-a-Pierre and Cumuto/Manzanilla sought clarification from the Minister.

The Minister of Works and Transport provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.72 The question was put and agreed that Head 43, Ministry of Works and Transport be supplemented by the sum of $65,512,929.00.
Head 61: Ministry of Housing and Urban Development 2.73 The Chairman announced Head 61: Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, a supplementation of $48,000,000.00.

2.74 The Minister of Housing and Urban Development was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

17 2.75 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 61, Ministry of Housing and Urban Development be supplemented by the sum of $48,000,000.00.
2.76 The Members for Oropouche East and Naparima, sought clarification from the Minister.

The Minister of Housing and Urban Development provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.77 The question was put and agreed that Head 61, Ministry of Housing and Urban Development be supplemented by the sum of $48,000,000.00.

Head 65: Ministry of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs 2.78 The Chairman announced Head 65: Ministry of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs, a supplementation of $6,000,000.00.
2.79 The Minister of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.80 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 65, Ministry of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs be supplemented by the sum of $6,000,000.00.

2.81 The Members for Naparima, Princes Town and Cumuto/Manzanilla sought clarification from the Minister.

The Minister of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs provided an explanation for the supplementation.
2.82 The question was put and agreed that Head 65, Ministry of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs be supplemented by the sum of $6,000,000.00.

Head 70: Ministry of Communications 2.83 The Chairman announced Head 70: Ministry of Communications, a supplementation of $10,000,000.00.

2.84 The Minister of Finance was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.
2.85 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 70, Ministry of Communications be supplemented by the sum of $10,000,000.00.

2.86 The Members for Naparima, Prince Town, Caroni Central and Caroni East sought clarification from the Minister.

The Minister of Communications and the Minister of Finance provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.87 The question was put and agreed that Head 70, Ministry of Communications be supplemented by the sum of $10,000,000.00.
Head 78: Ministry of Social Development and Family Services 2.88 The Chairman announced Head 78: Ministry of Social Development and Family Services, a supplementation of $227,548,500.00.

18 2.89 The Minister of Social Development and Family Services was invited to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five (5) minutes.

2.90 The Chairman proposed the question that Head 78, Ministry of Social Development and Family Services be supplemented by the sum of $227,548,500.00.
2.91 The Members for Fyzabad, Cumuto/Manzanilla, Caroni East, Princes Town, Naparima and Oropouche West sought clarification from the Minister.

The Minister of Social Development and Family Services provided an explanation for the supplementation.

2.92 The question was put and agreed that Head 78, Ministry of Social Development and Family Services be supplemented by the sum of $227,548,500.00.
Total Supplementation 2.93 The question was put and agreed that the Appropriation for fiscal year 2019 be supplemented by a total of $1,839,189,300.00.

REQUESTS FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION 3.1 Requests for additional information to Ministries/Departments are listed in Appendix I of the Report.

OTHER BUSINESS 4.1 The Chairman informed Members that the debate for the adoption of the Committee’s Report will take place on Monday May 13, 2019.
The time would be determined at the sitting of the House of Representatives on Friday May 10, 2019.

4.2 The adjournment was taken at 5:41 p.m. We certify that these Minutes are true and correct.
Wednesday May 08, 2019 CHAIRMAN SECRETARY 19 APPENDIX III Verbatim Notes VERBATIM NOTES OF THE STANDING FINANCE COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HELD IN THE PARLIAMENT CHAMBER, MEZZANINE FLOOR, TOWER D, THE PORT-OF-SPAIN INTERNATIONAL WATERFRONT CENTRE, #1A WRIGHTSON ROAD, PORT OF SPAIN, ON WEDNESDAY MAY 08, 2019 AT 1.30 P.M. Madam.

Chairman: Good afternoon everyone.

This meeting of the Standing Finance Committee is now called to order.

Hon.
Hon.

Members, in accordance with Standing Order 82(6) and 87, this meeting of the Standing Finance Committee was convened to consider proposals for the Supplementation of Appropriation for the fiscal year 2019.

Hon.

Members, in accordance with Standing Order 45(1) the speaking time in Standing Finance Committee shall not exceed five (5) minutes on each intervention.

Our procedure this afternoon shall be as follows: One, the head and the amount to be supplemented will be announced.
Secondly, the Minister with responsibility would then be invited to provide an explanation for the supplementation.

Thirdly, as Chair, I will then propose the question that the head be supplemented.

Fourthly, Members may then seek clarification from the Minister.

Fifthly, once this is concluded I as Chair will then put the question that the sum to be supplemented be approved.

Sixthly, the procedure will be repeated for each Head.
Thereafter the committee—I would also now ask the committee to note that a variation of appropriation from Head 43, Ministry of Works and Transport to Head 18, Ministry of Finance is required to meet capital expenditure in the sum of $20,187,071.

Mr. Singh: Madam Chair, is this the practice for a variation to be dealt with since this is a supplementation other than at this forum?

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance.

Mr. Imbert: Could you contextualize the question please?

Be specific?
Be specific?

Mr. Singh: I am surprised that this variation is being dealt with, because it is moving from one Ministry to the next Ministry on the basis of a Cabinet decision, and where is the parliamentary approval for that process?

Mr. Imbert: I “doh” follow.

Mr. Singh: Okay, you have on the basis of a Cabinet decision.

Mr. Imbert: Which page you are on?

Mr. Singh: I am on the last page of the Bill.

Mr. Imbert: Of the Bill?


Mr. Singh: On the last page of the agenda for the second meeting of the Standing Finance Committee, and it says that: It should be noted that a variation of appropriation is required to meet capital expenditure in the sum of $20 million as set out.

Mr. Imbert: Right?
Mr. Imbert: Right?

Mr. Singh: From the Ministry of Finance, and the explanation is that it was allocated to the Ministry of Works and Cabinet took a decision for it now to be—for this matter to be dealt with by the, and that is the construction of the ANR Robinson International Airport to enter into a contract with Nidco.

The question I have is that, how is it that you are going to have a variation at this stage, and all this activity took place prior to the parliamentary approval of it?
20 Mr. Imbert: No, no, no.

We are just varying the funds.

All we are doing is there was an appropriation for the Ministry of Works in the sum of $20,187,071.

That allocation has not been drawn down on yet.

Okay?

Mr. Singh: Okay.

Mr. Imbert: Right, good.

Madam Chairman: So, Hon.

Members we shall now consider the proposals for supplementation for fiscal year 2019.

Head 03: Judiciary, a supplementation of $57,682,800.

Question proposed: That Head 69 be supplemented by the sum of $57,682,800.
Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Attorney General to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Attorney General.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is self-explanatory as it is headed out into the document across three categories: Firstly, in respect of lease/rental; secondly, contract employment; and thirdly, fees.

The lease/rental is really for our 19 locations.


The sum is exactly distributed across the 19 locations in terms of rental moneys which are due and payable over the course of the financial year.

There was an inadequate allocation in the first appropriation and therefore we are supplementing on this occasion to the tune of 13 million.

Under contract employment, this is a critical aspect.
This contract employment, 31 million odd, nearly 32 million sum, is specifically for the operationalization of the criminal division which is afoot.

That law has been proclaimed, it is in operation, but the build out to the balance of positions for contract employment requires a supplementation of $32-odd million, $31.6 million.
Now, as you know the last positions to be proclaimed into effect would be the magistracy, registrars and clerks of the peace, and the rest of the Act came into effect on December 31st last year.

The allocation in respect of fees, is for funeral homes, psychiatric, psychological services et cetera.
These are the ancillary services which go, they are not fees in the traditional sense that you would see legal fees, et cetera, they are the fees associated with the operationality of the court; the Coroner’s Division, the Psychologist Division, all of the services that operate in the Family and Children Division, and in some of the adjunct areas of the Children's Court where you would have those provisions as we have amended laws last year.
That in summary therefore, is the rationale for our supplementation of appropriation for the Judiciary.

Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche West.

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Thank you.

Hon.

AG, if we were to look at the revised estimate for 2018, we would see it is $11.8 million, then there—it was now estimated at $22.6 million, 2019.

So we are seeing an almost a 50 per cent increase above the 2019 budgeted figure.

So, what we are looking at is over 200 per cent increase from 2018 to 2019.
Can you reconcile that?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Sure.

When you look at the figures for the years prior, what happened is we climbed the expenditure down from 2015.

When we were left with a 96 per cent deficit in our revenue everybody had to take a haircut, so we took the expenditure from a whole of Government perspective and the Judiciary, we took it down from 2015.

This 200 per cent increase is a year-on-year comparison that you are doing.
But when you take it from a block-on-block comparison, from the 2015 aggregated figures, it in fact represents less expenditure by the Judiciary.

So, this is a different structure of management that we have gone into, and this is for— Mr. Imbert: May I just, Madam, could I just intervene here?

Would expenditure in previous years and so on be relevant to the exercise today or we are just dealing with supplementation of the 2019 estimates?
Madam Chairman: We are in effect dealing with the supplementation of the 2019 figures, but I allowed the question because the Member actually posed it in the context that there was—additionally there was a 50 per cent increase.

That was part of the question, a 50 per cent increase in the estimates 21 for 2019.

Mr. Imbert: No problem, I was just wondering if questions regarding 2018 and 2017 expenditure would be permitted today, Madam Chairman.

Madam Chairman: I said—I think I made that clear.


Mr. Imbert: Okay, thank you.

Hon.

Member: That is part of the answer to the hon.

Member.

Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni East.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Hon.

Attorney General you might choose not to give the details now or probably give it in writing, but would it be possible for you to give the locations of these rental offices, the places that they are renting and the details of the cost for the rentals?

If you would be kind enough to note it?


And how many months overdue and the respective rents that you have to pay?

And how did the Judiciary select these particular location?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Sure, we can do that, and what I can tell you is that the entire portfolio of Judiciary rental will be exactly the same as it was as at the end of 2015, save in respect of two premises only— three premises only.

One is the Fyzabad court, which the Opposition has asked a thousand questions about.
It was selected by the Judiciary under the previous Government.

Secondly, is the children’s court as located on Elizabeth Street, which was opened a couple of years ago.

And thirdly, it is the transfer of property from the Attorney General’s office to the Judiciary at Pembroke Street.

That third property was a property rented by the previous Attorney General and which was left empty for five full years unoccupied.

We took the opportunity to transfer that to the Judiciary.
So, just to refresh your memory, it is just those three properties only, we have been the subject of many questions in relation to those properties in this session of the Parliament, and in the previous sessions, so I do not know if you would still want to have the answers beyond that.

Dr. Gopeesingh: No, I think you have given satisfactory answers on that, but, Madam Chair, can I just—one more?
There is San Fernando Magistrate’s Court, are you doing anything to help the situation there by finding alternative locations?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, we have.

Madam Chairman: I am not going to allow that under rent.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Yes.

Madam Chairman: Because, from the response that was given I would not allow that under rent.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Well, Madam Chair, I was trying to find out if they are considering renting in the other place where, if that was included in this?
Madam Chairman: And I believe from the answer, the Attorney General says nothing has really changed except three.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, but we have a place that has been allocated on a site.

Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche West.

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Hon.

AG, there is a new building in Princes Town which ought to house the Princes Town Magistrate Court.

It is unoccupied?

It is at present, a rent is being paid with the building not occupied by the Princes Town Magistrate Court?
As you are aware, we have Princes Town— Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche West, is it that you want to ask— Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: If it is at present— Madam Chairman: It is included in the 19 locations?

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Yes.

Madam Chairman: I will allow that.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Sure.

Just give me a moment.

It is not included in the 19 locations.

It has not been secured.

Madam Chairman: Member for Couva South.

22 Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Could the hon.
Could the hon.

Attorney General clarify whether these 19 locations fit the bill of meeting the OSHA requirements, and I also make it in the context of, recently an Assistant DPP complained about officers of the judicial system, magistracy, police, the public and so on, had to share common toilet facilities, and of the risk and so on?

Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, are we going to go into general discussions or are we dealing with the substantive items?
Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance I was just allowing the Member to ask his question and then I would determine whether I will allow.

Mr. Imbert: Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Please!

Yes Member for Couva South.

Mr. Indarsingh: Yes, I asked the question in the context of being OSHA compliant and so on.

Madam Chairman: And therefore, in terms of what we are about today Member for Couva South, I would not allow that question.
Mr. Indarsingh: Madam Chair— Madam Chairman: It may be valid and you will certainly have other opportunities to ask that.

Question put and agreed.

Head 03: Judiciary has been supplemented by the sum of $57,682,800.

Madam Chairman: I want to thank the hon.

Attorney General and the team from Judiciary.

Head 06: Service Commissions, a supplementation of $3 million.

Madam Chairman: I would now invite the Minister of Public Administration to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.
Minister.

Minister of Finance.

Mr. Imbert: Well it would appear that I would have to deal with this.

I will most certainly.

We have some outstanding arrears to security providers.

It is one of the items of goods and services we are handling, so we are supplementing the allocation for the Service Commission by $573,000 to allow them to pay arrears to security services.
With respect to Other Contracted Services of $2,427,000, the need for training as been identified for the cadre of Permanent Secretaries and deputy Permanent Secretaries, and this sum is intended to provide for that, and allow for training of Permanent Secretaries and deputy Permanent Secretaries.

Madam Chairman: Hon.

Members, the question is that the 2019 appropriation for Head 06: Service Commissions be supplemented by the sum of $3 million.

Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.


Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Chair.

Can the hon.

Minister state the security services provider for— Mr. Imbert: The can be provided for you.

I do not have those details, I would get them for you.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Okay.

Madam Chairman: Member for Tabaquite.


Dr. Rambachan: Minister of Finance, you said that under Other Contracted Services, the $2.427 million was for training for Permanent Secretaries, but when I look at it here it says, associated with assessment for Permanent Secretaries programme and selection of deputy Permanent Secretaries.

Mr. Imbert: Quite true.

Dr. Rambachan: Can you explain?


Mr. Imbert: In order to assist the commission to select and assess permanent secretaries, it was deemed necessary to improve the training of these personnel so that you would not be putting them at a disadvantage in terms of when you are assessing them they can always say they were not given the opportunity to perform the functions required of them.
So, the Service Commissions has decided to train up this particular group of senior public servants to assist in the selection and assessment exercise.

Madam Chairman: Member for Tabaquite.

Dr. Rambachan: Yeah.

Is it—I am trying, I am trying, excuse me I am trying to get it clear.

You are saying that the Service Commission has decided to give them an opportunity to upgrade?

Is that 23 what you are saying?

Mr. Imbert: To be trained.

Dr. Rambachan: To train.


But then who is doing the assessment of the Permanent Secretaries and the selection of the deputy Permanent Secretaries?

Mr. Imbert: The service commissions.

Dr. Rambachan: After they have trained them— Mr. Imbert: Ongoing process.

Dr. Rambachan: Which process?

The process to do the job of a Permanent Secretary or the process for selecting a Permanent Secretary.
Mr. Imbert: The ongoing process would be the training of the Permanent Secretaries and deputy Permanent Secretaries, and their selection and assessment.

Madam Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Chair.

Hon.

Minister, based on your response, can you provide further details on the assessment process for the Permanent Secretaries programme as well as the process involved in the selection to deputy— Mr. Imbert: I would get that information from the services commissions.
This is a new item that they requested.

They believe that this cadre of senior public servants is in need of training.

Leadership training in particular.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: But, can— Madam Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you.

Thank you.

Can you also then provide hon.

Minister the breakdown of the expenditure associated the assessment as well?

Mr. Imbert: The 2.4 million?

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Yes.

Mr. Imbert: I will ask the Service Commission to provide that.
Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 06: Service Commissions has been supplemented by the sum of $3 million.

Madam Chairman: Thank you Minister and thank you to the Service Commissions team.

Head 13: Office of the Prime Minister, a supplementation of $12 million.

Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of State in the Office of the Prime Minister to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Minister.

Mrs. Webster-Roy: Thank you, Madam Chair.


We are supplementing the allocation to improve the quality of services for children in Trinidad and Tobago, $6 million towards contribution to non-profit institution that would facilitate the payment per child system.
That is where children and community residences are given financial support for their psychosocial needs, et cetera, and also $6 million for the children’s authority to pay salaries and operational costs for three new facilities; Chaguanas Assessment Centre, Tobago Assessment Centre, the Place of Safety in Tobago.

Madam Chairman: Thank you Minister.

Hon.

Members, the question is that the 2019 appropriation for Head 13: Office of the Prime Minister be supplemented by the sum of $12 million.
Member for Princes Town.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.

Minister, with respect to this particular line Item for private community residences, can you advise how many children have been assigned to these private community residences that would benefit from this figure, one?

And secondly, if you can advise on how many children these private residences are involved?

So one, the children and then how many residences.

1.50 p.m. Mrs. Webster-Roy: Okay.


So the children that would be at the private residences will be placed 24 there through the Children’s Authority.

To date we have 489 children at the different community residences who will benefit from the programme.

Mr. Padarath: How many residences?

Mrs. Webster-Roy: How many residences?

Thirty-six.

I have the list if you want it.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, to the hon.

Minister, the second line Item, 04, 007, 03, Children’s Authority.
Can the hon.

Minister indicate whether the sum reflected here represents outstanding arrears for the operationalizing cost for the three entities you indicated or whether or not this is supplementary funding from now until the end of the financial year?

Mrs. Webster-Roy: From now until the end of the financial year to facilitate recruitment of staff.

Mr. Padarath: Okay.

So there is no reflection of arrears here?

Mrs. Webster-Roy: No.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you.


Madam Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.

Minister, line Item 04/005/03.

Can you provide a breakdown of the payment required by each private community residence?

And also, what mechanisms are in place to provide oversight of the private community residences that receive funding from the State, please?
Mrs. Webster-Roy: Okay, apart from the Children’s Authority monitoring the institutions, we have officers from the Office of the Prime Minister, from the Monitoring and Evaluation Unit who will go in to ensure that the funds actually go towards what they are supposed to go towards, and if you want I will send the rest in writing.

Madam Chairman: Member for Tabaquite.

Dr. Rambachan: Thank you, Madam Chair.


Madam Minister, with respect to 04/007/03, Children’s Authority, can you tell us what are the oversight mechanisms that exist to ensure that the Children’s Authority is using the funds allocated to effectively achieve its mandate of providing care, protection and rehabilitation of children, as well as perhaps more importantly investigating complaints with respect to children?
Mrs. Webster-Roy: In terms of ensuring that there is oversight of the Authority, I would have mentioned before we have the officers from the Monitoring and Evaluation Unit of the Office of the Prime Minister.

Apart from that, the Authority, they themselves have their officers who would go in to ensure that the funds are being utilized the way it is supposed to be utilized, as well as there is recourse where the public could often call in to make complaints.

And what is the second question you asked?


Dr. Rambachan: The complaints, investigating complaints with respect to children, how do you track that?

That is being done?

Mrs. Webster-Roy: The Children’s Authority would be the agency that would track the complaints.

What I was referring to when I said there is recourse to the public, if someone has an issue and they think that the Authority is not dealing with the particular issue the way it should be dealt with, people could often write to—you said stop.
Dr. Rambachan: No, no, no.

Mrs. Webster-Roy: Okay.

Madam Chairman: Member for Tabaquite, that is alright?

Are you finished?

Member for Couva South.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair, through the Minister.

Could the Minister state how many persons are currently employed at the Children’s Authority and further to that, I see that the numbers increased or the sum significantly between 2017 and 2018.

Has the number increased significantly to warrant that in terms of the number of persons employed?
Mrs. Webster-Roy: Okay.

25 Madam Chairman: Sure.

Just now Minister, I am not sure what is the question.

The question is, the number of persons employed at the Children’s Authority, Member for Couva, South?

Mr. Indarsingh: One, yes.

Mrs. Webster-Roy: At present, 225 persons are employed by the Authority.

Mr. Indarsingh: What were the numbers in 2017 and 2018?

Madam Chairman: Member, I would not allow that please.

If you want to ask if it has changed within this fiscal year I will allow it.
Mr. Indarsingh: Has it changed in this fiscal year?

Mrs. Webster-Roy: Just—for the Member for Couva South, last year we would have opened up two additional facilities in Sangre Grande, as well as St. Madeleine, right.

Mr. Indarsingh: I am merely asking the numbers in terms of the movement in the fiscal year.

I have not gotten the numbers.

Mrs. Webster-Roy: What exactly are you asking me?


Mr. Indarsingh: I have asked— Mrs. Webster-Roy: Okay, Member for Couva South, with the supplementation we will be recruiting 68 additional new positions.

That would be for the Chaguanas Assessment Centre, the Tobago Assessment Centre, as well as the Place of Safety in Tobago.

Additionally, last year we would have opened up an assessment centre in Sangre Grande and St. Madeleine.

Mr. Indarsingh: So there is an increase.


So you are going to recruit 66 additional officers in 2019?

[Crosstalk] I am clarifying Minister of Finance and also— Madam Chairman: No, no, just one minute, Member for Couva South.

I think the Minister was clear, so are you asking a further question?

Mr. Indarsingh: No, I was not clear based on what the Minister presented, so I am seeking clarification.

Mrs. Webster-Roy: I am confused.

Mr. Indarsingh: Am I entitled to seek clarification?
Madam Chairman: No, no, no.

I do not think that is the way we should ask it.

You are always entitled to seek clarification.

You are not entitled to regurgitate, okay.

So the Minister was very clear— Mr. Indarsingh: Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: Member for Couva South, we are too early in this exercise, okay.

The Minister was very clear that they would be recruiting 60, I think I heard 68.

Mr. Indarsingh: You heard.

Madam Chairman: I heard 68.


I am sure that the mikes are working properly in here, I am pretty sure, okay.

So that if you want to ask a further question about that, fine, but I do not know that the question is to ask the Minister again if it is 68.

Mr. Indarsingh: Madam Chair, I simply wanted to know, because we are seeking a supplementation or an increase, right, of $6 million.
How many persons were employed before this was requested and after you have requested or seeking an increase of $6 million, how many will the employment numbers move to?

Simple as that.

Mrs. Webster-Roy: Member for Couva South, before the 6 million we had 225 persons.

The $6 million will facilitate the recruitment of 68 persons.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you very much.

Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.


Minister with respect to the same line Item of the Children’s Authority, 04, 007, 03, does this figure reflect the existing organizational structure of the Children’s Authority or is this the creation of new positions of the organizational structural chart?

Mrs. Webster-Roy: You referring to the 68?

Mr. Padarath: Yes.

26 Mrs. Webster-Roy: That would be for the new facilities.

So it would be additional.


Mr. Padarath: Yeah, but the question I am trying to get is, is it new positions that will be created to facilitate organization— Mrs. Webster-Roy: Yes.

Mr. Padarath:—or is it existing positions already?

Mrs. Webster-Roy: New positions.

Mr. Padarath: New positions.

Okay.

Madam Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.

Minister, what operational cost does the Children’s Authority incur annually?
Mrs. Webster-Roy: Last year’s operational cost was approximately $57 million.

Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni Central.

Dr. Tewarie: Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is to facilitate the payment for children assigned to private community residences?

First of all how many private community residences we are about?

And secondly, are they all registered?


Mrs. Webster-Roy: We are talking about 36 community residences and all 36 are registered with the Children’s Authority, because the children who are placed at these community residences are only done so through the Authority.

Dr. Tewarie: Are there any unregistered residences that receive State funds?

Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, may I ask a question of relevance?

We are asking about $6 million for private communities residences registered.
Is that question relevant that the Member just asked?

Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni Central, I think in terms of the answer, which is accounting for the increase, the Minister has answered that these are for registered community residences.

So that in terms of the allocation and what we are looking at I would agree with the objection taken that it does not arise.

But you are entitled to ask that question at another time in another way.

Dr. Tewarie: No.
Dr. Tewarie: No.

So can I take it as confirmed that they are all registered residences.

Madam Chairman: What the Minister I think said to you is that the allocation will cover registered residences and you asked how many there are and there are 36.

I do not know if it will cover all 36, but those were the questions you asked and the responses that were given.

Dr. Tewarie: So I will take it as confirmed that they are all registered.
Mrs. Webster-Roy: Member for Caroni Central, all community residences are registered with the Authority.

The Authority is aware of all community residences, right.

However, there is a difference between being registered and being licensed.

The Authority is currently working with all of the facilities that are not licensed to bring them up to standard to be licensed with all that are registered with the Children’s Authority.

Dr. Tewarie: So some registered institutions may not be licensed?
[Crosstalk] Mrs. Webster-Roy: The Member already, Madam Chair— Dr. Tewarie: I just— Madam Chairman: I will just allow the Member for Caroni Central to ask the question as pertained to the details here Dr. Tewarie: No, Ma’am, I asked a simple—it is a yes or no answer.

And I think the Minister was willing to answer but the Minister of Finance—[Crosstalk] Mr. Imbert: Is it relevant— Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance, one minute, please.

One minute, please.

Mr. Imbert: I do not know what question he asked.


Dr. Tewarie: Well then you should not advise.

Hon.

Members: Oooh!

Dr. Tewarie: Let the Minister answer for her own—it is a simple question.

27 Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, could I get clarity on the question, please?

[Crosstalk] I need clarity on the question.

Madam Chairman: I believe, the Member for Caroni Central, you had asked if there are registered community residences that are not licensed?

Dr. Tewarie: Yes.
Dr. Tewarie: Yes.

I asked if some of the registered may not be licensed.

Madam Chairman: Yes, and I think that was clear from the answer, when the Minister sought to give clarification, I think that was clear.

Because your question was about registration.

Dr. Tewarie: Yes, but I want to know—she said that there was a two-stage process, which I appreciate and understand, Ma’am.
Madam Chairman: And she said that some are, not all that are registered are licensed and the Minister went on to explain that they are working to have all licensed.

So I think the natural consequence of that is that some are registered that are not licensed.

Dr. Tewarie: But I do not know if some of them that they are working who are registered in order to license them are covered by the allocation here.

And that is the issue for which we have gathered here.
Madam Chairman: And I agree that is the issue we are gathered here, but I believe what the Minister made very clear from the inception is that the allocation covers registered community residences of which there are— Dr. Tewarie: Including unlicensed.

Madam Chairman: 36.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, if I can assist to put an end to this.

May I assist the hon.

Member?

When we passed the law we amended the law to provide for grandfathering licensing.
So it is covered by the Family and Children Division Act in the Fifth Schedule which amended the community residences, both homes and otherwise where we have provided for the ability to come up to licence.

So the allocation does cover both.

It is the law.

Dr. Tewarie: So the allocation covers both, right?

I was not questioning the law, I wanted to know the facts.

Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche West.

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Hon.

Minister I am just following up with your explanation.

Hon.
Hon.

Minister?

Hon.

Member: Yes.

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: I am following up with your explanation.

You said some of the homes are not licensed.

My simple question is: Do you not think that there will be a legal implication if something were to happen to those children who are housed there, if something were to happen to them and they are not licensed.

Madam Chairman: I am not going to allow that question.

I am not going to allow that question.

Question put and agreed to.


Head 13: Office of the Prime Minister now supplemented by the sum of $12,000,000.

Madam Chairman: Thank you hon.

Minister, thank you the team from the Office of the Prime Minister.

Head 17: Personnel Department.

Ms. Mc Donald: Madam Chair, by Cabinet— Madam Chairman: Excuse me.

One minute please.

One minute please.

Member for Port-of-Spain South, one minute please.

I have to put the question.

Head 17: Personnel Department, a supplementation of $2,000,000.
Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Ms. Mc Donald: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, in February of 2019, the Cabinet 28 approved a lease rental for a period of three years of a building located to No.

3 Alexandra Street, St. Clair to accommodate the Personnel Department.

Madam Chair, the $2 million now allocated to the Personnel Department is to facilitate the outfit and occupation of the said building.
Question proposed: That Head 17, Personnel Department be supplemented by the sum of $2,000,000.

Madam Chairman: Member for Fyzabad.

Dr. Bodoe: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.

Minister, can you indicate whether the $2 million allocation is for the total outfitting or is it just part of the outfitting?

Ms. Mc Donald: Member for Fyzabad this would be part of it.

This would be part.

Dr. Bodoe: Thank you, Minister.

Can you then indicate what exactly the $2 million is going to be used for?
Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, let me assist here.

The document is crystal clear that this is required to relocate the staff of the Personnel Department.

That is on page five under the notes, under Head 17.

It is crystal clear that this building was procured to relocate the staff of the Personal Department and therefore it is obvious that this building will be used to house the staff of the Personnel Department.
And just on a side, $2 million is a fraction of what your government spent on the other building.

You all spent $75 million on the building next door.

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance, Minister of Finance, I think it is agreed here that we are only looking at 2019, okay.

[Crosstalk] So I think we all have to be bound—Member for Couva South we both cannot be speaking at the same time.

So Minister of Finance I think we all have to be bound by that rule.
Dr. Bodoe: Thank you Minister and thank you for that information.

Madam Chairman: Member for Fyzabad.

Dr. Bodoe: I understand Minister.

I was just trying to find out, I understand it is for relocation of the staff, but I was asking in terms of what customization— Ms. Mc Donald: The breakdown.

Dr. Bodoe: Yeah, the breakdown.

Ms. Mc Donald: I have the information here for you.

Dr. Bodoe: Thank you Minister.


Ms. Mc Donald: For the IT infrastructure it is going to cost something like about, I would say about $1 million or 400,000.

Actually the server room $200,000; cords and access cables, $400,000; then the built out of the office space, $800,000; negotiation room, $200,000.

That should give you a total of about $2 million.

So that by and large that is what the $2 million is about.

Dr. Bodoe: Excellent.

Madam Chair, just one more question.

Madam Chairman: Yes.


Dr. Bodoe: Minister, can you indicate how soon you expect the procurement process to start for this outfitting process?

Ms. Mc Donald: I have just been advised that the RFP would be going out by the end of this month.

Dr. Bodoe: Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, on this same line Item.

Could the hon.
Could the hon.

Member for Port-of-Spain South confirm that this is the property that is shamelessly owned by the Member for San Fernando West, Attorney General, Faris Al-Rawi?

Madam Chairman: And I would not allow that question.

Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Can the hon.

Minister indicate how is this new office building procured?

Madam Chairman: Excuse me.

Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman.

Madam Chairman: One minute.


[Interruption] Minister of Finance would you please give me an 29 opportunity.

Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla, again by the rule by which we are bound I am not going to allow that question.

Member for Oropouche East.

Dr. Moonilal: Thank you so very much, Madam Chair.

To the gracious Member for Port-of-Spain South.

Could you tell us the total cost of outfitting the building?

Ms. Mc Donald: The total cost, I have been advised is estimated at $38 million.
[Member whistled] Ms. Mc Donald: Far less than what you all paid Madam Chairman: And just remember— Dr. Moonilal: Madam Chair—[Crosstalk] Madam Chairman: One minute please.

Remember whistling is not allowed in here either.

Dr. Moonilal: Madam Chair— Madam Chairman: Yes, Member for Oropouche East.

Dr. Moonilal: Have we lifted the rule about going back.

Madam Chairman: The rule about going back is enforced.

Okay?

Dr. Moonilal: I am hearing something else.


Madam Chairman: No, all I heard is, it is $38 million and before something else was chipped in, but somebody else also broke another rule.

So I could only deal with them sequentially.

Member for Tabaquite.

Dr. Rambachan: Thank you, Ma’am.

Madam Chair, the hon.

Minister said $2 million, but called ballpark figures, $200,000, $800,000, whatever.

How did you arrive at these figures, exactly $200,000, $800,000 and so on?
Were these based on a proper scope of works, a proper analysis of what is required or is it that these figures were just thrown there to come up with $2 million without a proper scope of works?

Is that scope of works available for purview?

Madam Chairman: Minister.

Ms. Mc Donald: Certainly.


Madam Chair, once these figures have been given to me by the department I have all confidence that these figures are accurate and they would have been done in a proper manner and it will be available at the shortest possible time.

Dr. Rambachan: Can the Minister say whether she has seen the details that back up these figures at this stage?

Is it available in written form, type form that these are in fact the details?

Madam Chairman: Okay, so let me ask.


The Minister said she was, once these figures are given to her she is confident.

All right.

So I guess she has seen.

What you want to know is if it is in writing or if it was oral?

Dr. Rambachan: Yes.

Madam Chairman: Minister.

Ms. Mc Donald: Madam Chair, I will make the figures available in due course.

Madam Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.


Minister, can you advise, what were the procurement costs attached to attain this new office building?

Ms. Mc Donald: What is the procure---I “doh” understand that question.

Madam Chairman: One minute.

Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla I believe the Minister indicated that the RFP will be going out later this week.

So that I do not know that there has been any procurement as yet.

Member for Couva South.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.


Is the Minister prepared to tell this meeting what is the cost of renting the existing facilities for the Personal Department?

Madam Chairman: I will not allow that.

This is not a figure under rent.

Mr. Imbert: Not relevant.

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance.

Mr. Imbert: Just getting a ruling.

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance, [Crosstalk] Minister of Finance I would like if we all respect 30 our roles in here.

Thank you very much.


[Crosstalk] Question put and agreed to.

Head 17: Personnel Department now supplemented by the sum of $2,000,000.

Madam Chairman: Thank you Minister and thank you the team from the Personnel Department.

Head 18: Ministry of Finance, a supplementation of $729,187,071.

Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Finance to make a brief opening statement not exceeding five minutes.

Minister of Finance.

[Crosstalk] Mr. Imbert: Thank you, Madam Chairman.


In 2018 but in this current fiscal year, actually in November 2018—[Crosstalk] yes, in November 2018 Petrotrin was required to pay a significant sum in termination benefits to its employees in excess of $2 billion and they sought assistance from the Ministry of Finance for bridge financing, temporary financing and we assisted them.

We now have to replenish the vote that we took it from.
It is allowed under the rules to move between the Infrastructure Development Fund and the Consolidated Fund so we did the transfer and we now have to replenish the Infrastructure Development Fund vote to the tune of $709 million.

With respect to pensions and gratuities we are simply asking for an additional $18 million to assist in payment of gratuities to contract officers.

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance I think we are just dealing with— Mr. Imbert: “Oh”, I am so sorry, I am so sorry.
I got ahead of myself.

Madam Chairman: Yeah.

So we are just dealing with Head 18.

Are you finished Minister of Finance with respect to your opening statement?

[Crosstalk] Are you finished—[Crosstalk]—Minister of Finance are you finished with your opening statement?

Mr. Imbert: Yes.

Question proposed: That Head 18, be supplemented by the sum of $729,187,071.

Madam Chairman: Member for Tabaquite.

Dr. Rambachan: Thank you.

Madam Chairman, three to the Minister.


Minister when this $709 million was taken out of the Infrastructure Development Fund to facilitate the financing of the exit cost with respect to Petrotrin, how did this affect the infrastructure development programme of works?

And have they been stymied, have things been placed on the back-burner?

Can you explain whether this has affected the infrastructure development projects, programme?

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance.


Mr. Imbert: No, it did not affect it in any way.

We had a balance in the fund.

So we had sufficient additional funds in the Infrastructure Development Fund to continue with the development works and also make a temporary transfer for this purpose.

The Infrastructure Development Fund is a rolling fund and continues with a balance from year to year.

So there was enough money in it to allow for this.


Dr. Rambachan: So you used the excesses from this fund for Petrotrin?

Mr. Imbert: The surplus existing at that time.

Dr. Rambachan: At that time.

Would it not have been more prudent, in light of the fact that there is a problem with the economy and the construction sector, to have used the money to stimulate the economy through the construction sector [Desk thumping] rather than using it this way?

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance.


Mr. Imbert: Madam Chair, are we having a supporting cast from— Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance, please answer the question.

Mr. Imbert: Could I ask for that rule to be enforced, Madam Chairman?

There is no banging of table, whistling, cheering and so on.

Madam Chairman: [Laughter] Minister of Finance that is done in a parliamentary setting.

Please answer the question.

[Crosstalk] 31 Mr. Imbert: The requests for funding under the IDF have all been satisfied.
There is a programme of development works for the year, there is a schedule of development works and the fund quite often will have far more money than it is required in terms of request for releases and the stage at which projects are at.

Dr. Rambachan: And Minister following the— Mr. Imbert: So the answer to your question is, no.

Dr. Rambachan: Following that— Mr. Imbert: There was no requirement to release more money out of the Infrastructure Development Fund.
Funds were released as requested and in accordance with project schedules.

Dr. Rambachan: So then can you say, Mr. Minister, what percentage of the Infrastructure Development Fund has so far therefore been utilized given that you use this $709 million to date for the final cost for Petrotrin.

Mr. Imbert: This supplementation is simply to replenish the surplus in the fund.

It has nothing to do with expenditure from the fund.

Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni Central.


Dr. Tewarie: Yes, just a couple of questions, Madam Chairman.

Would the Minister be willing to provide a breakdown of the exit costs associated with the closure of Petrotrin?

You do not need to do it now, but if we can have it.

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance.

Mr. Imbert: Well that has been asked and answered in this Parliament already by a number of questions to Ministers you know.

That is in the public domain.


So I will simply pull from the questions and answers.

2.20 p.m. Dr. Tewarie: I shall be grateful if you would provide it.

And do you have an idea of the total cost associated with the closure of Petrotrin to date?

Mr. Imbert: That, in my opinion, and I will ask a ruling from the Chair, does not apply to this supplementation.

Dr. Moonilal: But this has to do with payments and costs.
Madam Chairman: And had not the Minister of Finance rushed to answer, I would have then determined.

I do not allow it as a question under this.

Member for Caroni East.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Madam Chair, I pose this question to the Minister.

Is this $709 million a part of the exit cost?

And if so, what is the total exit cost?

Mr. Imbert: Again— Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance, I believe that is the question that was just asked in another formulation.
Dr. Gopeesingh: But, Madam Chair, we need the answer from the Minister.

Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni East, I am not denying the fact that you may need an answer— Dr. Gopeesingh: But, Madam Chair, are you attempting to answer the question for the Minister?

Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni East, we both cannot speak—Excuse me?

Dr. Gopeesingh: Are you attempting to answer the question for the Minister?

Madam Chairman: No, I am not attempting to—[Crosstalk] Member for Caroni East.
Member for Caroni— Dr. Gopeesingh: But I am asking the Minister for the answer to the question, Madam Chair.

I do not think I should be deprived from asking the Minister.

It is the total exit cost that I am asking.

Either he has the answer or he does not have the answer.

Mr. Indarsingh: I totally agree.

Madam Chairman: And Member for Caroni East, if you will give me an opportunity to respond, 32 and then we either go on or you exercise your options.
Before the Minister is allowed to answer the question, I think the Chairman has an opportunity to allow or disallow the answer.

Dr. Gopeesingh: I am allowed five minutes to ask my question, Madam Chair.

I have not been given the opportunity to ask my question.

Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche East.

Member for Oropouche East.

Member for Oropouche East.

Member for Couva South.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair— Dr. Gopeesingh: Madam Chair, I want to— Madam Chairman: Member for Couva South.
Dr. Gopeesingh:—register my objection to your ruling.

I want to register my objection to your ruling.

By the laws of Parliament I am allowed five minutes to ask my question and the Minister has not answered.

You are depriving me the opportunity from getting my answer to the question, and that is not right.

Madam Chairman: Objection heard.

Member for Couva South.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.


To the Minister: Minister, you spoke of a significant sum of $2 billion-plus and the need for Brick financing, and so on.

Does this sum fully take care of entitlements of former employees that would have received benefits via collective agreements, and so on, prior to the closure of Petrotrin?

Madam Chairman: Member for Couva South, I would not allow that question based on the exercise that we are involved in.

Member for Caroni East.


Dr. Gopeesingh: Minister of Finance, does this cost include the security cost that is being given now—that has to be paid now?

Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, I know that I may be pre-empting something, but I simply wish to explain that all this is, is a replenishment of the Infrastructure Development Fund.

It has nothing to do with any of those issues you are raising.
Dr. Gopeesingh: But you are using the infrastructure development for a specific purpose and we are asking you what is this specific purpose for utilization of the funds, and you have to give the answer.

Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, again, I do not want to pre-empt anything you may wish to say.

The wording—the text is clear.

The sum is required to reimburse the Infrastructure Development Fund.

It is a reimbursement.


Dr. Gopeesingh: But why was the money taken out of the Infrastructure Development Fund, to pay for what?

You have to answer that.

[Desk thumping] You cannot use taxpayers’ money without explaining why you are using it.

Madam Chairman: Hon.

Members— Dr. Moonilal: [Inaudible] You did not put down my name earlier?

Madam Chairman: I know I put down your name, but when I called your name you did not respond.

[Interruption] No, no, no.


Member for Oropouche East, your name was called before the Member for Couva South, on two occasions.

And there was no crosstalk.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 18 now supplemented by the sum of $729,187,071.

Madam Chairman: Thank you, Minister of Finance.

Thank you PS, Ministry of Finance.

Head 20— Dr. Gopeesingh: This is terrible, man.


Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni East— Dr. Gopeesingh: Madam Chairman— Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni East— Dr. Gopeesingh: Madam Chair, I am very upset about the unavailability of the answers from the relevant Ministers to the questions we are asking.

I have been in Parliament longer than you have 33 been.

Hon.

Members: Ohhhh!

Dr. Gopeesingh: Yes.


So at least I am aware of what transpires and the Ministers are supposed to give the answers to the questions.

Madam Chairman: And Member for Caroni East, I would ask you—in fact, I will caution you, just kind of exercise a degree of temperance so that we can continue.

If not, then we will have to take a course that I really do not want to adopt.

Head 20: Pensions and Gratuities.


Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Finance to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Minister of Finance.

Mr. Imbert: Certainly, Madam Chairman.

This is simply to assist the Ministry of Finance in expediting payments of gratuities to retired public servants, and we are asking for a supplementation of—contract officers in particular, not public servants per se.
We are asking for a supplementation of $18 million to allow us to pay gratuities to contract officers.

It is a burning issue.

Question proposed: That Head 20 be supplemented by the sum of $18,000,000.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.

Minister, with respect to this particular line item, can you advise how many officers will benefit from this $18 million?
And also—you may not have the information at this time, but if you will give the undertaking to provide under the particular Ministries or agencies.

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance.

Mr. Imbert: As best as is possible we will provide that information, the numbers and the distribution.

Mr. Padarath: At this time, do you have a total number of how many officers will benefit?

Mr. Imbert: No, I do not have it, but we will provide it for you.

Madam Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.


Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.

Minister, would this allocation be used to cover any backlogs who are owed gratuity, like persons who are outstanding for quite some time— retroactive?

Mr. Imbert: This, ipso facto, deals with arrears.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: How many persons?

Mr. Imbert: That was already asked, and I said I would provide the information.

Madam Chairman: Member for Chaguanas East.

Mr. Karim: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.


Hon.

Minister, given this additional sum of money, can you indicate what would be the waiting time for people to receive their gratuity payments?

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance.

Mr. Imbert: I cannot give you that information now.

All I can say, it has been considerably reduced, but in the debate perhaps I can address that.

Madam Chairman: Member for Naparima.

Mr. Charles: Thank you.


Minister, the number of people have retired and the number of people entitled to gratuities are there.

It exists.

If that is correct, why are we not able to predict accurately what is required in any fiscal year—any budget year?

And why the need for this supplemental allocation, if we knew there were X numbers of people retiring, and which would require payments of so many millions of dollars?

Why that figure cannot be accurately projected at the beginning of the year?
Mr. Imbert: Are you finished?

Mr. Charles: Yes.

Mr. Imbert: We do not know, because the payment of gratuity is based on reconciliation of pension and leave records which can sometimes take years, because people have moved from one department 34 of government to another, from Ministry to Ministry, and quite often there are gaps in the records.

So we can only estimate.

Yes, we know when people are retiring, but we can only estimate when their records will be updated.
That has happened to even parliamentarians here.

Mr. Charles: Yeah.

I know this crosses different governments, but why it is, if we know someone is retiring next year—I am 59; I am going on 60—why do we have to wait for the person to retire and then go through the ordeal of reconciling their entitlements, where they worked, et cetera?

Why can we not anticipate it before so that when the person retires—look in certain countries, which I would not call—it is seamless?
You leave today and you get your cheque the next day.

Mr. Imbert: This is one of the reasons why we have introduced innovation, for example, of the minimum pension of $3,500 immediately on retirement.

It is not as simple as you make out.

The person actually has to apply for their gratuity and present whatever missing records there are that are in their possession.

It is not as simple as you think it is.

We are not as efficient as that, as a country.

It happens to everyone.


I said it happens to Members of Parliament who have moved from Ministry to Ministry and found that even in other governments, their records were not properly kept.

We are making tremendous strides in improving it, but it is not as simple as it may appear to be.

Madam Chairman: Member for Pointe-a-Pierre.

Mr. Lee: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, in the 2019 estimated budget it was estimated $115 million, and now you are asking for an increase of $18 million.
Is it fair to say that that $115 million has already been used up for the year?

Mr. Imbert: No.

We estimate this is what we will need for the balance of the year.

And, in fact, ironically, the reason why we need supplementation is because of improvement in efficiency.

So more and more people are qualifying for gratuity payments in terms of their records.

So because of our efficiency—and we are moving faster than anticipated—we need a supplementation.

Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town.


Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair, to the hon.

Minister.

Minister, while I understand that you may not be able to give us the exact figures at this time, based on the amount of persons who would have qualified for gratuity and so, at the end of the last financial year, can you give us an idea in terms of percentage, of what would have existed at the end of the last financial year in term of figures, how many of those persons will be affect?

Is it the majority?
Is it the majority?

Fifty per cent?

Seventy-five per cent?

Mr. Imbert: I will provide you with that information, together with the other information.

Madam Chairman: Member for Couva South.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, you continue to focus on efficiency, and so on.

Will this sum cover all the persons who will qualify for gratuity and benefits in fiscal 2019?
Mr. Imbert: I just made the point that it is impossible to determine, with any degree of absolute accuracy, as to exactly who and how many persons will be eligible for payment of their gratuity, because there are a number of factors, most notably, gaps and missing parts of the pension and leave records.

And, therefore, this is the best estimate based on available data, of the supplementation that would be required.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 20 now supplemented by the sum of $18,000,000.
Madam Chairman: Thank you again, Minister of Finance.

Thank you to the PS in the Ministry of Finance.

Head 22— Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, I have a request from the Minister of National Security who has been called away on urgent national business, if we could just skip National Security for a little while until he returns.

I crave your indulgence.

Madam Chairman: All right.

So Members—Yes, Member for Oropouche East?


Dr. Moonilal: Thank you very much, Ma’am, but could the Minister also indicate when the Minister 35 of National Security may be available to us?

Mr. Imbert: He will be back soon.

But certainly before we get to the end of the exercise he will be back.

Madam Chairman: Okay?

So it is agreed that we will defer Head 22 for later consideration.

Head 23: Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs, a supplementation of $50,000,000.
Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Attorney General to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Attorney General.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, the Ministry of the Attorney General, under Head 23, is requesting a supplementation of appropriation of the sum of $50 million as set out in the documents.

It falls under “General Administration” specifically under “Legal Fees”.

If I could explain, Madam Chair, the exercise of legal fees is a continuum.
As at September 2015, the Ministry of the Attorney General had spent $444,444,197.16 being a subtotal of approximately $1.4 billion in a whole- of-Government expenditure, largely conducted by the AG’s office.

Out of that $1.4 billion—and the precise figure I can actually provide as well—out of that $1.4 billion, and specifically down at the AG’s office, we were left with an arrears of $137,128,741.

So approximately $137 million of arrears.


We have been managing with approximately a utilization of, at lowest, 34 per cent of the budget of the previous government and, at highest, 58 per cent of the year on year.

This $50 million, therefore, is required to settle arrears that is owing.

So the AG’s office, having spent in the period 2010 to 2015, $444 million in legal fees, being a subset of $1.4 billion in legal fees, left the incoming government with approximately $137 million of arrears.
There is a statutory period of limitation with respect to legal fees.

Obviously, it is a four-year limitation period, and whilst the Ministry was conducting a value-for-audit exercise on the expenditure of legal fees and discovered very serious matters, we are now compelled to begin the exercise of settling vouched and bona fide legal fees, as opposed to those which are under investigation or which have been set aside.

That is the rationale for this increase in expenditure.
Question proposed: That Head 23 be supplemented by the sum of $50,000,000.

Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche East.

Dr. Moonilal: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.

Just to the Attorney General, just for clarity first.

Could you just clarify for us, you said as of September 2015, $1.4 billion was spent.

Was it by the Ministry of the Attorney General?

And over what period of time?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Sure.


In the period 2010 to 2015, the sum of $1.4 billion was spent by the Government across all of the Ministries and statutory enterprises.

The Attorney General’s office had conduct of the vast majority of those expenses.

For example, Petrotrin, UDeCOTT, UTT, eTech, T&TEC.

The then Attorney General took conduct of matters, actually in breach of the law, and had the mind and management at the AG’s office and directed the expenses.
So the whole-of-government expenditure was $1.4 billion.

The AG’s office itself spent $444 million.

Of that $444 million—that was the actual expenditure—the then AG also left a debt of $137 million.

So in the period 2010 to 2015, it was approximately $600 million at the AG’s office, taking the gross figure for the whole-of-government to approximately $1.6 billion.
What we did was a value-for-money audit and we separated out expenses which were possibly fraudulent and we have referred those matters to the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service, and there are other matters that are into as well.

Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche East.

Dr. Moonilal: Let me just continue for a moment.

Mr. Attorney General, do you have, by any chance, any figure for the whole-of-government expenditure on legal fees from 2015 to 2019, or thereabouts?
Madam Chairman: I would not allow that because we are talking about the Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs.

Dr. Moonilal: But, Ma’am, the Attorney General was kind enough to tell us of the 36 whole-of-government— Dr. Tewarie: To give us all the information on the other matter.

Dr. Moonilal:—for the period before.

I am just enquiring as to the whole-of-government for the period after.
Madam Chairman: Right, okay— Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman— Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance— Mr. Imbert: Your ruling, please.

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance, please.

Member for Oropouche East, I am not allowing that.

Do you want to ask another question?

Please do.

Dr. Moonilal: Then I would move on.

Attorney General, you say $50 million to pay some fees that you have investigated and clearly believe to be bona fide and proper.
Would you be kind enough to give us some type of breakdown as to the allocation of this $50 million?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Sure.

I can tell you that it also includes fees to be paid to the DPP’s office.

In 2017 we separated out the DPP’s expenditure from the AG’s expenditure, ring-fencing the expenses of the DPP.

What we have been doing, on some years we have given the DPP approximately 80 per cent of our expenditure for fees, and at lowest, 50 per cent of the expenditure.
So some of those figures include litigation, prosecutions which the DPP is paying.

But what I can tell you is the vast majority of fees that we are proposed to settle are fees in respect of which we have been sued upon, or there has been taxation by a court, or there has been a settlement by way of an accounting exercise.

So I do not have a precise figure yet.


It will materialize as those pots become certain, either through taxation at the court, judgments which are rendered against us, or matters which are settled by way of the accounting division doing it.

So regrettably, I do not yet have that settled figure.

Dr. Moonilal: Could I also ask you to ponder, if not give the exact detail, as to whether this outstanding figure would include any payments vis-à-vis the outstanding Clico matter?
Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, they certainly do.

Dr. Moonilal: And that, therefore, means that the Clico matter would continue in excess of the figure that you gave the House some time ago?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, they certainly do.

Dr. Moonilal: And continues into the foreseeable future?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, but what I can tell you is that the special prosecution unit that has been assembled to treat with white collar aspects, I am informed by them that they are very close to treating with that matter in final form.
Dr. Moonilal: Could you just indicate the special prosecution unit in the Ministry of the Attorney General?

Mr. Al-Rawi: No, Sir, not in the AG’s office.

Dr. Moonilal: The Commissioner’s or in the DPP?

Mr. Al-Rawi: The DPP.

So the DPP— Dr. Moonilal: So that unit is treating with the Clico matter and we expect— Mr. Al-Rawi: It is the DPP in combination—sorry to interrupt you.

It is the DPP in combination with the TTPS and their reformulated unit.

Dr. Moonilal: Okay.
Dr. Moonilal: Okay.

And there is some idea that that matter may come to an end, given the expenditure—the public expenditure— Madam Chairman: I just do not want this to end up being a discussion about the Clico matter.

I allowed your original questions in the context of the fees aspect.

Member for Oropouche West.

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Thank you.

Hon.


AG, if you were to disaggregate those fees, would those fees cover forensic investigations and legal opinions, or even to pay foreign witnesses and so?

Would it cover those?

37 Madam Chairman: Those fees you are talking about are what, the $50 million?

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Yes.


Mr. Al-Rawi: Those fees are to cover all expenses, and expenses in legal fees include disbursements, and disbursements for forensic evidence, et cetera, are always part of certain matters.

So the answer is, yes.

Madam Chairman: Member for Couva South.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.


AG, could you inform this meeting if the fees that you have alluded to takes into consideration any external advice or in relation to a matter involving a former employee at the Ministry of Sport?

Mr. Al-Rawi: External advice?

Mr. Indarsingh: Yeah.

Mr. Al-Rawi: The Attorney General’s office was not involved in that matter, as you know.

Mr. Indarsingh: At no point in time the Attorney General’s office was involved in that matter?

Madam Chairman: Excuse me.


I will only allow the question in the context of if the arrears include that.

The answer was they were not involved.

Member for Caroni East.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.

Attorney General, would it be possible for you to provide a disaggregation of the fees in terms of what is for forensic investigation, what is for local attorneys, what is for foreign attorneys?

And is this $85 million the total amount that is going to be paid for 2019?
Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, whilst I am minded to want to do that, I have got to be very careful because there is active investigation and criminal investigation afoot.

What I can tell you is that 12 people alone, in the period 2010 to 2015— Dr. Gopeesingh: You going back there.

We did not ask you— Mr. Al-Rawi:—consumed $290 million of expenses; 12 lawyers alone.
And there is, as the population is aware—and I want to be very careful—there is an ongoing matter that is being investigated and there are further investigations and matters to come.

So I would not want to disturb what the TTPS is engaged in.

Dr. Gopeesingh: No.

Well, I am just asking for 2019.

Is the $85 million the total figure for expenditures by the Attorney General for fees for 2019?
And if so, would it be possible to give us— we are not asking for names, but a disaggregation in terms of local attorneys, foreign attorneys and forensic investigations.

Mr. Al-Rawi: If it was devoid of particulars, yes, we could.

Dr. Gopeesingh: And you would?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, of course.

Dr. Gopeesingh: All right.

Mr. Al-Rawi: So what you are asking for, in respect of the $50 million on the table here— Dr. Gopeesingh: Or the $85 million.

Mr. Imbert: No, it is only $50 million.

Madam Chairman: No.
Madam Chairman: No.

I was going to intervene, except the Attorney General answered.

But the figure we are looking at here is $50 million.

Dr. Gopeesingh: But to bring it to $85 million, Madam Chair.

Mr. Imbert: No, you are not getting that.

Madam Chairman: I will allow the question in terms of the $50 million.

Dr. Gopeesingh: All right.

Well, AG, would you be— Mr. Al-Rawi: So could I just have clarity as to what you want?
So with respect to the item of $50 million— Dr. Gopeesingh: Yes, the disaggregation in terms of forensic fees, local fees— Mr. Al-Rawi: Right.

So what I indicated, Madam Chair, is that I could not provide that.

I am going 38 back to something I have said previously, because— Dr. Gopeesingh: But you are going back to 2010 to 2015— Mr. Al-Rawi: No, I will explain why.

Dr. Gopeesingh: I am simply asking you— Mr. Al-Rawi: I will explain why.

Do not get too anxious.

Do not get too concerned.


The position is, the matters relate to arrears in respect of DPP and AG’s debts left, and which are now coming to book right now.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Okay.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Those arrears is being managed in an exercise of value-for-money audit which has resulted in reference to the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service.

It also involves other matters that will come, depending upon what action the TTPS takes.
In respect of the value-for-money audit, I indicated to the Member for Oropouche East a short while ago that there is an exercise where some people have approached the court and sued for their legal fees.

Some of those are in the process of taxation, some of them are being done by accountants in between, verifying the exercise.

So we do not have a specific figure.

We estimate that the $50 million would begin to take care of arrears which are not in issue.
So I do not have a specific sum yet that I can give, because that exercise is yet to be crystallized.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Okay.

Mr. Al-Rawi: And the caution that I am offering is that the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service is engaged in an exercise for further action.

Dr. Gopeesingh: So the $50 million is not conclusive as yet.

Mr. Al-Rawi: It is an estimated figure to allow us to take care of the expenses that will come at us.

Dr. Gopeesingh: All right.

Madam Chairman: Member for Couva South.


Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Again, to the Attorney General.

Attorney General, out of this $50 million, could you tell us if there was any allocation for legal fees at the Ministry of Sport in relation to a sexual harassment case?

Madam Chairman: And I believe that question was asked already and a ruling was given— Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, the AG’s—this is Head 23.

Madam Chairman:—on that question.

Question put and agreed to.


Head 23 now supplemented by the sum of $50,000,000.

Madam Chairman: I thank the Attorney General and the team from his Ministry.

Can we now revert to Head 22?

I see the Minister of National Security is here.

Head 22: Ministry of National Security.

Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of National Security to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Minister of National Security.

Mr. Young: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Madam Chair, as the country knows, the Ministry of National Security is the Ministry charged with the responsibility of working with the various arms of law enforcement: immigration; probation officers; our fire services; our lifeguards; our Trinidad and Tobago Defence Force; Intelligence services and other bodies that are constitutionally charged with the responsibility of safeguarding and making more secure, Trinidad and Tobago for our residents, our citizens and those visitors here.
The various bodies and the men and women who serve in national security, I would like to take this opportunity to thank them for their dedicated service, in particular the agencies that have been working overtime for us to try and make Trinidad and Tobago a more safe and secure country, that is the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service, the Defence Force, Immigration, the probation officers, our fire services, our prison services, the lifeguards and also the administrative staff 39 at the Ministry of National Security.
Thank you.

Question proposed: That Head 22 be supplemented by $207,000,000.

Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche East.

Dr. Moonilal: Thank you very much, Ma’am, and may I also, as one of the two shadow Ministers of National Security, thank those in the protective services and law enforcement for their service to this country: the police service, the defence force, immigration and the other units that the Minister routinely identifies in the House.
2.50 p.m. Dr. Moonilal: The police service, the Defence Force, Immigration and the other units the Minister routinely identifies in the House, I would also like to thank them for their service and congratulate them on their work.

And anytime he does that I will thank as well.

The matter here concerning the CC TV cameras, just a few quick questions on this, and while I am on it, am I permitted to ask questions on the other sub-heads within the Ministry of National Security?
Madam Chairman: Once they are covered by this documentation.

Dr. Moonilal: Yes.

Thank you.

Minister, I know there was some troubling aspects involving the continuation of contract arrangements with the TSTT over CC TV cameras, some of those issues reared its head last year I believe it was.
Can I ask if that matter has been sort out with a new contract for a new provider, because I recalled that you indicated to the House that we were on a month to month contractual arrangement involving the same terms and conditions with TSTT, but you had to come to an end of process and there were a few problems I believe, but, could we enquire first whether that has been sorted out, so who is the new provider of CC TV coverage and services to the Ministry of National Security, and what are the new terms and conditions that have been arrived at.
That would be my first issue and I have a second question.

Madam Chairman: Okay, let me make sure I understand before I call on the Minister.

You are really asking if this $124,000,000 is to pay moneys under than month to month contract?

Dr. Moonilal: Correct.

Mr. Young: That is the question to answer, Madam Chair.
The answer to that question is, as I had indicated previously, the terms and conditions with respect to how TSTT has provided this CC TV camera service are not agreed between the Ministry of National Security and TSTT, there is to be a meeting between ourselves, to try and work out, let me say mutually acceptable terms with the CC TV camera footage, so this sum of money is being provided in the events that we come to an agreement for the provision of those services by TSTT, because they are currently in dispute.
Dr. Moonilal: Thank you very much.

Mr. Minister, bearing in mind it was about five to six months ago this matter was raised, could you indicate, within reason, what would be the troubling problems that would have the Ministry for such a long time still unable to bring a finalization to this matter?

Mr. Young: Absolutely.


Ma'am, I am sure the Member for Oropouche East would be well aware, being involved in some litigation himself, these matters are never resolved when there is dispute and there is disagreement between two two parties, it is not easily resolved in a short period of time.

I am hoping that we will avoid litigation, I am going to agree to meet with TSTT in the not-too-distant future, and until that time, the parties have not come to a settlement.
Dr. Moonilal: So, Minister, could I just be very clear on what you are saying.

The matter is not in litigation, it is before litigation.

The matters you are arising to, I was sued by both the Government and the Member for Diego Martin West, so it is in the court, so it will take long.

Mr. Young: That is not the matter I was talking about.
Dr. Moonilal: But what I am saying is I am aware of litigation taking long, but you are saying with TSTT, you are not at the courthouse, there is no litigation, but before that is taking long even to meet and discuss and agree and settle, because at this time, you must correct us if we are wrong, there is no litigation between the Ministry of National Security and TSTT.

You are before that, and that is taking 40 a substantial amount of time and I am asking why.
Mr. Young: Madam Speaker, again,there were a number of questions in there— Madam Chairman: The one question is really why it is taking so long.
Mr. Young: Madam Chair, the point that I was making is, when parties are having disputes and when parties are not seeing eye to eye, in particularly with respect to this, as happens when you are in court for example or even before you get to court with some matters, the parties have to sit, they have to discuss, they have to negotiate and that process will commence, and it has not as yet reached in a settlement.
Dr. Moonilal: Madam Chair, I would leave it at that point and I will take it up on another occasion.

My second question to the Minister, would be concerning the Strategic Services Agency.

There is a reference here, to replenish funds to the Strategic Service Agency which was utilized to settle a civil court matter.

Now this is a document presented to us by the Government and the Minister of Finance.

To replenish funds from what?

Where did you get the funds from?


And you are replenishing the Strategic Services Agency and what was the civil court matter involving $44 million, simply that.

Mr. Young: Thank you very much for the opportunity to explain why the taxpayers have to pay out this sum of money and perhaps some more.

Towards the end of the last administration, in or around 2014, two particular helicopter contracts were entered into in very suspicious circumstances by the former administration.
In fact, what we have found when we have gone to investigate it now, is that there may not have been proper approval, there certainly was not Cabinet approval for the entering into these two helicopter contracts.
In fact, I want the people of Trinidad and Tobago to know, that under the former administration, they entered into these contracts for two helicopters, one never even came to Trinidad and Tobago, because the certificates for it to leave Delaware in the United States to come to Trinidad and Tobago could not be provided.

It cost the taxpayers of Trinidad and Tobago hundreds of thousands of US dollars every month, they could not even utilize the helicopters.
This one that was provided to the NOC by former administration, ran out of having a licence within a few months upon arrival here.

So by November of 2015, it was no longer licensed to fly in Trinidad and Tobago, but the terms of the contract were the most onerous terms as an attorney I have ever seen entered into.

It provided for no termination by the Government of Trinidad and Tobago.

If we terminated, we had to take the helicopter and pay the full cost of the helicopter.
This particular helicopter that was cast on the shoulders and burdened the NOC and then later on the SSA, had no maintenance contract.

The then Attorney General actually put on writing and on record, legal advise that they can proceed with this contract and a waiver of the jurisdiction.

So even when we were sued now by this company in the courts of New York, they will held up the former Attorney General's letter that said: "Well hold on, you cannot waive your Government jurisdiction.
"So we found ourselves getting legal advise from Fresh Field, some of the best international lawyers and they basically told us that they have -- the Government of Trinidad and Tobago by, extension the people of Trinidad and Tobago -- absolutely no defence to this contract that was entered into by the former administration.
So this sum of money, Madam Speaker, unfortunately $44 million that could be better utilized, in my humble opinion, elsewhere were are burdened with, due to one of these contracts entered into, towards the end of an administration, prior to 2015; another gift from them .

Dr. Moonilal: Madam Speaker, just to follow up.

I would be equally brief as the Minister was.


It is not my intention to enter a debate in the Committee but U am extremely happy that the Minister has gone on record to explain that matter in the way that he did and I would intend, on the next occasion when it is proper -- Mr. Young: What is the question?

Dr. Moonilal: -- to have a debate.

My question would be: Could the Member be more specific by which civil court matter?
Was it a determination of the court or was it that the Government, with the 41 expert advise that you have indicated, including your own expert advice, as you said, as attorney yourself.

Did you settle due to a ruling of a court or did you settle bilaterally between the Government and the companies in question?

That is all I ask.

I do not want to encourage a debate.


Mr. Young: Madam Chairman, just to correct the record, I never said and I do not want it to be said that I gave any legal advise in this matter.

Dr. Moonilal: But Madam Speaker, the record will reflect the Minister say: "As a lawyer, when I looked at that. "

I thought it was bad.

Mr. Young: Madam Chairman, as a lawyer, when I look at- Madam Chairman: Can we have a little order?
Member for Oropouche East, you asked a question and I think the Minister of National Security should be allowed the time.

I would also, if you wish to ask another question, do so when that time arises.

Minister of National Security.

Mr. Young: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.

The answer is proceedings were brought against the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
In particular, in this instance it was against the Minister of National Security of Trinidad and Tobago by the company that had "leased" the helicopter to the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago in the courts of New York.

I cannot remember which district court it was.

My recollection is the claim was for US $16 million or US $18 million.

There was then legal advise provided by Fresh Fields to settle the matter because we had absolutely no defence.
Negotiations took place and the matter was eventually settled.

Mr. Karim: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to ask questions with respect to the item on janitorial service, as well as the CCC.

With respect to the first one, the janitorial services, will the Minister be able to explain the substantial increase which is identified as almost five times higher than the estimate, in terms of the outstanding Bills?

Mr. Young: Yes, Please, Madam Chairman.


This is a particular expense that the fire services have incurred to MTS for the period 2013 to 2018.

So this is for payment of invoices incurred by the fire services for a period of five years.

And what they are looking to do now is liquidate the outstanding amounts owed by the fire services to MTS, for the period 203 to 2018.

Mr. Karim: Will this totally clear the indebtedness to MTS, or will there be a residual?

Mr. Young: Yes, it will totally clear it.


Mr. Karim: With respect to the Civilian Conservation Corps, this sum is required to facilitate the continuation of the programme for this specific period of July to September.

Hon.

Minister, will you be able to say how many members of staff are on this project, how many trainees there are, and the operational cost of the staff, and those for the trainees that this money will be utilized to ensure its continuity?

Mr. Young: Thank you very much.


Madam Chair, the Cabinet recently took a decision to continue the CCC programme.

So sum of money is required to fund the programme for the last quarter of this fiscal year, as you have identifed.

The projected expenditure for fiscal 2019 is $39,357,700 and currently this amount, this $12 million would do towards they paying of a stipend of $90 a day to 80 trainees, the salaries for staff, as well as other related cost.

There are 55 assistant team commanders.


There are 21 junior team commanders.

There are 11 team supervisors.

Those are the staff to be covered.

The clothing and equipment will be about $332,589; utilities, $337,133; accommodation, $280,250; training cost would be $1.8 million; food at the institution estimated to be about $1,120, 000; other expenses, which would be repairs, maintenance of vehicles, buildings, equipment, stationary, materials, and supply, $860,805, and that covers the whole $12 million.
Mr. Karim: Thank you very much.

Hon.

Minister, will you be kind enough to indicate to us, what is the cost per trainee and if you can also indicate to us what is the ratio of staff to trainees.

Mr. Young: The cost per trainee is $4.7 million.

That is how much the stipend cost would be.

Of course, if you take the 800 and then you divide it into the overall cost of the programme, that would 42 give you- I do not know which cost per trainee you are talking about.
The stipend cost works out to $4.7 million.

But then you can divide the 800 into the $12 million, and those costs I have just said, I have worked out the total, the $12 million.

That could give you the cost programme per trainee.

And then what was the other question?

Mr. Karim: The other one is the staff to trainee ratio.

Mr. Young: All right, it is 800 trainees.

You have 82 staff to 800 trainees.

Mr. Karim: So that is a 1:10.

Mr. Young: Yeah, about a 1:10 ratio.

Madam Chairman: Couva North?


Ms. Ramdial: My questions have been asked.

Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni Central.

Dr. Tewarie: One, why was not the amount for TSTT budgeted?

Is there any reason for that, that we have to now come and ask for the money?

Mr. Imbert: There was a budget.

This is a supplementation.

Dr. Tewarie: I do not think so, you know Minister.

I do not have all the documents here to check, but do not think so.

Mr. Imbert: Well go and check it quick.


Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni Central I will allow you an opportunity to rephrase your question when you have whatever support you need.

Member for Naparima.

Mr. Charles: Thank you, Madam Chairman.

With respect to the capital expenditure, $7 million, acquisition of naval vessels, sum is required to fund the service contracts to repairs and maintenance of the Daman vessels utilized by he Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard.
Before I do that, may I, as the second MP, shadow MP for national security, congratulate the officers of the Immigration Department, the Coast Guard, the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service, the Fire Service and the Regiment operating under trying circumstances and severely -- Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman.

Mr. Charles: Under-resourced.

I have five minutes.

I have five minutes.

Madam Chairman: Member for Diego Martin North/East, please allow the Member to make his contribution.
He has five minutes on every intervention and so would you.

Yes, Member for Naparima.

Mr. Charles: Even though they operate in a situation where they are severely under-resourced.

Nevertheless, I would like to ask the Minister: How many Damen vessels are utilized by the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard?

How many are in operation right now, operational?

And will this mean that all the vessels will be functional when this sum is allocated and given effect to?
Mr. Young: Madam Chair, with greatest of respect, that was three questions to the end of the five minute statement.

So I would like some guidance as to exactly I am supposed to answer.

Mr. Charles: How many vessels will this relate to?

Mr. Young: Madam Chairman, first of all I would like to state that the members of the various arms of national security are well aware of how long it has taken for these hollow words of appreciation to come from the opposite Bench.

Mr. Lee: Madam Chairman, 48(6).


Mr. Young: And it is great to know that the proposed Minister of National Security -- Mr. Charles: "Yuh did not even feed them."

Mr. Young: where we have just won the election.

Madam Chairman, with the greatest of respect, this $7 million is for the acquisition of naval vessels.

This $7 million is for the acquisition -- sorry, yes, it is for the repairs and maintenance of the Damen vessels.
There is one Damen vessel currently in Curacao being dry-docked and receiving repairs.

The rest are being utilized.

In fact, within the past month or so, we have made sure that even though some of them may have some issues, all have been 43 ordered to be utilized in whatever way they can be, and I do not want to get into the as to where they are deployed and how they are being utilized.

Mr. Charles: Madam Chair, I asked a specific question.

How many Daman vessels does this relate to, five, 10, 15?
Mr. Young: Well that might explain the sum of money because we only bought six Damen vessels.

So the fact that they are saying that they paid the price for five, 10, or 15, would explain the exorbitant amounts of money expended.

Mr. Charles: Madam Chairman, I asked- Madam Chairman: So, Member,what was asked is: How many vessels would the supplemental sum relate to?

Mr. Young: Two.

Madam Chairman: To two?


Mr. Charles: Could the Minister also tell us how many, of the Damen six vessels, how many of them are operational, since we are getting reports that many of them are tied up for want of fuel, et cetera.

How many are operational?

Mr. Young: Madam Speaker, as I said in the answer to the previous question, five of them are operational.

Just because a vessel is moored, does not mean that it is not being utilized in operations.
Vessels have to come in to refuel, to change crew, to get supplies, et cetera.

All of the available vessels, that is five are being utilized by Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard and there is no issue, with respect to them being able to refuel.

Mr. Charles: Minister, it is good to know that all the vessels are being utilized to protect our porous borders, but thank you very much for that words of comfort.

I refer to the Civilian Conservation Corps, and I see here a note.
This with respect to the $12 million.

The sum is required to facilitate the continuation of the Civilian Conservation Corps programme for the period July to September.

You said that Cabinet recently took a decision to facilitate the continuation of the programme.

The question I ask is: At the beginning of the fiscal year, was there a plan for it not to continue?

And something came up which allowed us to now continue the programme?
Mr. Young: No Madam Chairman, being a responsible Administration, one of the things that we had asked be done and it was actually being done by the former, by Minister Dillon, and I would like to thank him for the work he did, was they wanted a tracer study done, because we believe in value for money and we wanted to make sure that if there was going to be the continuation of expenditure on the programme we would be able to have a study that traced whether persons who had gone through the programme found that it was a good programme, what were the benefits, et cetera.
So that tracer study was being done, as well as a value for money analysis, which included looking at the number of teachers, the number of supervisors for the programme and we actually reduced the number to ensure the proper value for money.

Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche West.

Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

Okay, Member for Caroni East.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Just for clarification, Minister on the issue of the outstanding bills to TSTT.
Would this $124 million completely cover all outstanding bills to TSTT?

Madam Chairman: I think Member, just in the interest of time, that question was answered when the Minister said that this sum- Mr. Young: Was in dispute.

Madam Chairman: -is a sum that they put there in the event they have to pay.

Dr. Gopeesingh: All right.

Madam Chairman: Okay?

He explained the whole scenario and said that this allocation is allowed in the event they have to pay.

44 Dr. Gopeesingh: I must have missed that.


Is the contract with TSTT completed, ceased or halted now, or is it still ongoing?

Mr. Young: Madam Chairmain, TSTT continues to provide the service.

It is the terms and condition under which they provide the service that are to be negotiated between the parties.

Dr. Gopeesingh: So there is no new entry?

Mr. Young: No.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Okay.

Madam Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

Mrs. Newalo-Hosein: My questions were answered already, Ma'am.
Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche East?

Dr. Moonilal: Madam Chairman, my question was asked and unanswered.

Madam Chairman: Hon.

Members, the question is that the 2019 Appropriation for Head 22, Ministry of National Security be supplemented by the sum of $207 million.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 22, supplemented by the sum of $207 million.

Madam Chairman: Thank you Minister of National Security.

Thank you PS and team from national security.


Members, might I ask if we go to Head 42.

We will revert to the other Heads.

Dr. Moonilal: Why?

Madam Chairman: The reason is that I think we all know that we are in the month of Ramadan and it is just to facilitate the hon.

Minister meeting his religious observances.

Head 42: Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government, a supplementation of $39 million.
Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Rural Development and Local Government to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Minister.

Mr. Hosein: Thank you, very much, Madam Chair.

I am pleased to be here at the Standing Finance Committee to answer whatever questions that you all might have.

Thank you very much.

Question proposed: That Head 42 be supplemented by the sum of $39 million.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.
Hon.

Minister line Item 0600536, the Princes Town Regional Corporation, could the Minister confirm that this allocation of $2.5 million as identified as the sum that is required to meet the wages and COLA, goods and service, including scavenging for the provision of water trucking services and rent at the municipal corporation of the Princes Town Regional Corporation, with respect to $2.5 indeed for arrears of the supplemental funding for the period that we in of May till September, or is this for arrears?
Mr. Hosein: This is supplemental.

Mr. Padarath: Minister are you then saying that this $2.5 million is for supplemental for water trucking services, scavenging and rental when councillors have been evicted?

The corporation is currently being told that they too will be evicted if they have not paid the arrears.

So, therefore, you are saying that this will take care of, from now until the end of the financial year.
But from January 2019, till now councillors are being evicted, the corporation is being evicted.

There is no funding for water because the suppliers are in arrears, in terms of their payments.

Mr. Hosein: Member, these funds are adequate till the end of the financial year.

Mr. Padarath: Minister, are you saying that this will take care of the arrears and supplemental funding that would be needed from now until the end of the financial year?
Because right now there is an arrears of $3.5 million and a request for supplemental funding of $3 million, which takes us to a total of $6.5 million needed for basic commodities like water and scavenging.

But right now I am only seeing a figure reflected of $2.5 million.
So, is the Minister saying that he is unaware that there is a request for supplemental funding of $ 3 million and arrears of $3.5 million, which totals $6.5 million needed by the Princes Town Regional Corporation to fulfill their mandate until the end of the financial year.

45 Mr. Hosein: Member, the amount requested was 3.138,450.

They got 2.5.

Mr. Padarath: Minister can you say if this is for arrears and when was the request made?

Mr. Hosein: This 2.5 would be made available.


I know what you are saying.

Mr. Padarath: Minister, you just told me that- Madam Chairman: Member, Member.

Mr. Padarath: Sorry, Ma'am.

Go ahead, Minister, sorry.

Mr. Hosein: This request was made.

This is the sum we got and this is the amount that will take us to the end of the financial year.

Mr. Padarath: And this figure of $2.5 million will take care of the arrears?

Mr. Hosein: Yes.

Mr. Padarath: And -- but hon.


Minister, the arrears is "3 point something million."

The Minister just said that.

Madam Chairman: One minute.

Give the Minister an opportunity to answer.

He is consulting.

Mr. Padarath: Sure.

Mr. Hosein: We have and I am being advised also that we have funding.

It just has not be released as yet and that will take care of all the arrears, and so on.

Mr. Padarath: Minister, with all due respect, you have provided a very convoluted answer.
Mr. Hosein: We have virement and transfers.

Mr. Padarath: Minister, could you tell me at this point how much is the arrears?

Mr. Hosein: I do not have the correct figure right now.

Mr. Padarath: So you do not know what is the arrears, but you are telling me that it will take care of the arrears, but it will also take care of the supplemental funding needed from now till the end of the financial year.

Madam Chairman: One minute.

One minute, please.


I think, Member for Princes Town what you have already got established is this, what I understood the Minister to explain just now, is that they made certain allowances for some of the arrears but the releases just have not taken place as yet.

3.20 p.m.

I think that is what the Minister said.

He also said that there will be virements, but this 2.5 supplemental will take care of whatever is outstanding, based on your figures.
I believe that is what he is saying to you.

That is what I heard him say.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, but I am taking the Minister for his own words, where he told me that it will take care of the arrears and it will take care of the supplemental funding needed from now until the end of the financial year.

However, the Minister’s figures are not adding up and it is not adding up in terms of what is reflected here that it is needed.

But I will move on, Madam.


Madam, the second question that I would like the hon.

Minister to answer is whether the contracts for scavenging and water trucking services which were terminated last month because the funding for that has been totally exhausted, what is the contingency plan for that going forward from now until the end of the financial year?

Because, as I understand it, the request is sitting on the Minister’s desk for a few months now.

Hon.
Hon.

Hosein: Once we get the releases, the releases will be paid to the corporation, all the corporations.

And the request is being made through the Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government to the Ministry of Finance.

Mr. Padarath: So, Minister, are you saying that for about two or three months now which the application was made for the funding to your Ministry that it is now with the Ministry of Finance.
And while the grass is growing, the horse is starving, literally, because the corporation has exhausted their funding and they are waiting two for three months for supplemental funding.

So I just wanted to make sure I have that correct.

Madam Chairman: So what is the question?

46 Mr. Padarath: That it is with the Ministry of Finance now?

The Minister just indicated that he has received the application for supplemental funding, but the representation is being made at the Ministry of Finance.
Mr. Imbert: No, no.

We are dealing here with supplementary funding for the Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government; that is what we are dealing with.

Not anything else.

Mr. Padarath: Madam, one more question?

Hon.

Minister, can you say whether you are satisfied that line item 06/003/36 that represents supplemental funding and arrears for basic commodities like water and scavenging that we are at this point.
Are you satisfied that under another heading, when you look at Ministry of Foreign and Caricom Affairs that $7 million is allocated for luxury vehicles and for property— Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town and when the question is so wide, I do not want to use your word “convoluted”, then we do not know what the question is.

So I am going to limit you to within Head 42, whatever question it is you want to ask, I believe, but I am not limiting you to that, I believe you were on 06/005/36.
Mr. Padarath: Madam I will be very succinct.

Is the Minister satisfied that Government priority that is being placed on vehicles and properties and so on that the basic commodities are not being met?

Is the Minister satisfied with that arrangement and that prioritizing?

Madam Chairman: I will not allow that question.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Minister, the $4 million allocation for Allowances to Monthly Paid Officers, when these 220 municipal police officers were recruited?

Hon.
Hon.

Hosein: They started in March.

Mr. Indarsingh: In March.

Could you give a breakdown to this meeting of how they have been deployed throughout the local government fraternity in terms of regional corporations and so on?

Hon.

Hosein: Well, Member, I would like to advise you that we had a batch passed out which were about 199 and they were deployed throughout the 14 corporations.

We have a second batch training right now.


And they should finish in a couple months’ time and the same process will take place.

Mr. Indarsingh: I hear you, Minister, of the number.

But could you be specific to tell me well, five went to Port of Spain, two went to Couva, give a breakdown.

Hon.

Hosein: I could provide that for you in writing.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you.

Mr. Karim: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am just trying to get some guidance from the hon.
Minister with respect to line item 005, where there is a disbursement of $30 million, but I am trying to see if I could find the Chaguanas Borough Corporation.

Is it that it is not there, is it in error?

Madam Chairman: Where are you, please?

Mr. Karim: I am on Head 42, Current—you have a whole list of corporations which sums are assigned— Madam Chairman: Right, yes.
Mr. Karim:—and I wanted to know whether it appears if Chaguanas Borough Corporation is not there then they are adequately serviced with the requisite resources and therefore may have not been so listed.

Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, I would like a ruling on this, please.

Can we talk about supplementations that are not here?

I am certain we can only talk about what is here.

Madam Chairman: And therefore, I would allow why Chaguanas is not here.

Minister.

Hon.
Minister.

Hon.

Hosein: Madam Chairman, I could give you the answer.

I have before me the Chaguanas Corporation did not request, they did not make the request for additional.

Mr. Karim: I not sure I heard what you said properly.

Is it that the Chaguanas Borough Corporation did not request additional funding?

Hon.

Hosein: That is correct.

47 Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair To the hon.

Minister: Hon.
Minister: Hon.

Minister, can you indicate with respect to the scavenging contracts that fall under this item, whether or not the Ministry has arranged service providers with respect to long-term contracts or are they still on month to month as we move forward?

Madam Chairman: I will not allow that under this exercise.

Member for Pointe-a-Pierre.

Mr. Lee: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, the allocation of $1 million to Rural Development Company of Trinidad and Tobago.
In the budgeted estimate for 2019, you had zero budgeted, and now you are now asking for $1 million—what would be these expenses, the $1 million to cover what expense— Hon.

Hosein: It is operational.

Mr. Lee:—given that you did not—[Electronic device goes off]—Sorry, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: The Member I least expect to offend the rules is the Whip.

[Crosstalk] Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, I can answer that.

Madam Chairman: Okay, just one minute; let us just have a little order.
Mr. Imbert: I will answer that question.

Madam Chairman: Yes.

Mr. Imbert: The Rural Development Corporation may have had a subvention in previous years, but they earn their money through fees that they charge on projects, they are a project management company similar to UDeCOTT.

So that at every project that they do, there will be a percentage of the construction costs; let us say it is a $50 million project, they might charge 5 per cent they would earn $2.5 million from that hypothetically.
And that is how they would cover the costs of their operations.

So they do not always need a subvention in the estimates, because they earn money otherwise.

This is just $1 million because we were told by the Rural Development Company based on their projections in terms of the fees that they will earn for this fiscal and their operating costs that they will need assistance with a subvention of $1 million.
Mr. Lee: Minister of Finance, based on your response, just for my clarity, who has oversight over this Rural Development— Mr. Imbert: The line Minister would be the Minister of Rural Development and Local Government for operational matters and for governance it is the Corporation Sole, Minister of Finance as it is with all state enterprises.

Ms. Ramdial: Thank you, Madam Chair.


Minister, under Local Government Bodies, like my colleague, from Chaguanas East, I am not seeing any allocations for Couva/Tabaquite/Talparo Regional Corporation.

Can you tell me what is happening there?

Hon.

Hosein: Member, the same applies, they did not request.

Dr. Tewarie: Yes.
Dr. Tewarie: Yes.

Chair, with regard to rural development, sometime ago MPs were asked to make submissions of projects for their constituencies was this matter ever allocated for and was it considered for this supplementation?

Madam Chairman: So, you want to know if in the supplementation if this allocation is covered?

Dr. Tewarie: Yes.

Madam Chairman: Yes, I will allow that.

Hon.

Hosein: No.

Dr. Tewarie: Is it covered anywhere else?

[Crosstalk] Madam Chairman: Minister.

Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman.


There is a lot of noise, I am having a little trouble here.

Madam Chairman: Minister, I am sure you are accustomed operating in such an environment.

Mr. Imbert: No, Madam Chairman, I am not.

I am not.

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance.


Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, the Rural Development Company, being a state enterprise, can be 48 accommodated under the Infrastructure Development Fund and that fund was set up to allow the Minister of Finance the flexibility to reallocate funds between state enterprises.

So you do not have to see it in an appropriation.

Where you will see is in the closing of the accounts at the end of the fiscal year; that is how the IDF was set up.
So we intend to assist the Rural Development Company with additional funds through the Infrastructure Development Fund in the balance of the fiscal year.

Dr. Tewarie: Okay.

So funds will be allocated from that?

Mr. Imbert: Funds will be made available from the IDF and from other sources for RDC to do its projects.

Dr. Tewarie: All right.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Indarsingh: Just on a point of clarification, Madam Chair.
The Minister indicated moments ago that the—for example, the Couva/Tabaquite/Talparo Regional Corporation did not make any additional requests under this particular vote for, or provision of water trucking services and scavenging and so on.

Minister, does that mean all the releases for the Couva/Tabaquite/Talparo Regional Corporation have been fulfilled?

Madam Chairman: I will not allow that as a question under this exercise, Member.

Question put and agreed to.


Head 42 supplemented by the sum of $39,000,000.

Madam Chairman: Thank you, Minister and the PS.

Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, may I make an intervention here with your indulgence?

It is my understanding, we have with us the Commissioner of Police, who is not a Member of Parliament, so can we accommodate the police out of sequence and have them now if you do not mind?
Madam Chairman: Might I say this, while we will seek to accommodate anybody, it means that Ministries would have been asked to come here in a particular order and my fear is that we will be inundated with requests.

Mr. Imbert: This will be the last time.

Madam Chairman: I will hold you to that.

Members, we are now being asked to accommodate the TTPS out of turn.

So I take it there is no objection.

Okay.

So we move on, Members to Head 64.


And I do apologize to the Ministry of Education, Ministry of Labour and Small and Micro Enterprise Development and the Ministry of Public Utilities and thank them for their indulgence.

Head 64: Trinidad and Tobago Police Service, a supplementation of $75,000,000.

Madam Chairman: I will now call upon the Minister of Finance to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Hon.

Imbert: Yes.
Hon.

Imbert: Yes.

I will deputize for the Minister of National Security in the interim, Madam Chairman.
The Trinidad and Tobago Police Service’s allocation is being supplemented in the sum of $75 million in recurrent expenditure made up of an additional $10.5 million for Salaries, COLA and Allowances for police officers; $13 million for Telephones, to improve connectivity and improve their telecommunications; $6 million to assist in servicing their fleet of vehicles which is now larger in size; $8 million to fill contract positions in specialized units, such as cybercrimes, social media unit, air support, financial investigative unit, et cetera, crime scene department; $2.5 million is being requested to supplement their allocation for repairs and maintenance to buildings—[Interruption]—just let me.
Okay, do you want to take over?

Mr. Young: No, you go ahead.

Hon.

Imbert: Okay.

Thank you.
$5 million additional for fees for software licences, subscription for databases, for fingerprints and so on, GPS systems; $6.5 million for contracted services, other contracted services, for consultancy to help the police service in prosecution matters; $3 million additional for janitorial services; $2.5 million for medical expenses for police officers as part of their terms and conditions of employment; $5 million 49 for fuel and lubricants because of the increased size of the fleet; $12 million for other minor equipment to assist the police service in their crime-fighting capability; and $1 million additional for ex gratia awards granted by the compensation committee of the police service.
All in an effort to assist the Commissioner of Police to have as much money as is available to assist the Commissioner and the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service to fulfil their mandate.

Question proposed: That Head 64 be supplemented by the sum of $75,000,000.

Madam Chairman: Member for Naparima.

Mr. Charles: Thank you, Madam Chairman.


Minister, I would wish you to correct me if I am wrong, but I did hear, read somewhere that the Commissioner of Police had indicated that he was under- resourced in certain areas.

If that is correct, to what extent would this allocation meet the Commissioner’s needs so that we could have an efficient and effective police service?

Hon.

Young: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.


I understand that the Member for Naparima may not be aware, but there is every single government department, every single Ministry always can do with more resources.
But this sum of $75 million, as the Minister of Finance has stated, out of what is available to the country at this point in time, is a significant amount of money that he has generously allocated to the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service recognizing the important role that the Commissioner and his men and women in the police service play in Trinidad and Tobago and at this stage this was the best that can be done.
The Commissioner does an excellent job, Madam Chair, in prioritizing and spending the money, getting the best value for money and he has already identified along with his executive where this $75 million would best be spent in order to get Trinidad and Tobago Police Service to a level that he wants to take it to.
Mr. Charles: Madam Chair, I am reading that the sum is required to facilitate payment of salaries and COLA and allowances to police officers—does that mean that the other sectors of the police service are reasonably satisfied with the allocations to date?

Hon.

Young: Madam Chairman, thank you very much.

That particular sub-item is an increase to meet the cost of an additional 57 members of staff and the payment of COLA to SRP officers.
The COLA was not included in the 2019 Draft Estimates; an approval to pay COLA was granted to the Commissioner of Police in November 2018.

Mr. Charles: So the question is that this was the only request made that you are satisfying?—that is, salaries and COLA, et cetera.

Hon.

Young: But by definition there are a number of sub-items.

So I do not understand the question.


There was a request for telephone, we got money for telephone, a request made for maintenance of vehicles, we got money there, contract employment, and got money there, repairs and—so the answer is, no, it is not the only request that was made; there were many requests made and with these requests amounts were received.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Minister answered the question in relation to the payment of COLA and salaries.
Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.

Minister, the Commissioner of Police has been reported as saying that the service will embark on acquiring 50 new unmarked vehicles for their operations.

With respect to line item 02/001/13, Maintenance of Vehicles, the explanation says additional funds are required to service the fleet with has increased in size.

Can you indicate whether or not this sum represents the maintenance of those additional 50 unmarked vehicles?

Hon.
Hon.

Young: Again, as the Member for Princes Town just reported having read a report somewhere.

The Commissioner of Police said he intends to get those vehicles.

Those vehicles have not as yet been acquired so therefore by definition those vehicles, having not been acquired, cannot as yet be maintained?

Dr. Tewarie: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have three questions; the first one is, how many data sites 50 does the police service— Hon.

Young: What line item is that?


Dr. Tewarie: The issues of telephones, the $13 million.

Hon.

Young: Right.

Dr. Tewarie: Right.

How many data sites does the police service now have?

And what would this supplementation do to increase by how many the data sites and the telephones?

Hon.

Young: There are currently 110 data sites and at this stage they are not being increased.

Dr. Tewarie: Not being?

Hon.

Young: Increased.

You asked how many would this go towards increasing.
Dr. Tewarie: So the allocation is really for telephones then?

Hon.

Young: The allocation is to maintain the payment of bills for fiscal 2019 for the landlines at the various police stations, cell phones as well to provide Internet and cable services.

Dr. Tewarie: Okay.

Second question, Madam Chair, through you.


In terms of this contract employment for these specific areas under the Commissioner of Police, are these vacant positions going to be filled by transfer or is there going to be a transparent process of new applications?

Hon.

Young: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

All of the fillings of posts under the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service will be done in a transparent manner.
This is actually to maintain current employment and to fill positions in certain specialist units such as cybercrime unit, the crime scene department, financial investigations unit; the positions include, for example, four experts in cybercrime and two network security experts.

Dr. Tewarie: These are going to be publicly advertised?

Hon.

Young: Yes.

Dr. Tewarie: Okay.


And under Other Contracted Services, the issue that is raised here is the allocation to procure consultancy service to assist the police service in prosecution.

I wanted to find out whether that would be consultants who would be involved in the prosecutorial process themselves in supplementation of police now engaged in that, or whether they would be training existing prosecutors?

Hon.
Hon.

Young: Madam Chair, this will be a mixture because you need investigators before you get to the stage of prosecutors.

So it will be a mixture between the supplementation of the investigative arm as well as assistance of the prosecutorial arm.

Mr. Paray: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.


Minister, I take note that the Commissioner is using a lot of technology in his crime-fighting arsenal, and under telephones again, I know it is subbed under telephones, but I take note of the increase in network connectivity, data usage and so on.

Would we be seeing any furtherance in the use of like bodycams and so on which I know are data intensive equipment in the fight against crime this year in terms of increasing the arsenal for his officers?

Hon.
Hon.

Young: Not in this fiscal, because the Commissioner has to go through the public tender process and as you may know that will take some time unfortunately.

Mr. Lee: Thank you, Madam Chairman, to the Minister.

Minister, in the Contract Employment line 02/01/16, the Police Air Support Unit, could you just specifically state what that unit consists of and the vacancies that are required in that particular unit?

Hon.
Hon.

Young: Madam Chair, the Commissioner of Police has been reinvigorating as well as looking to expand this unit with the use of drone technology.

So it is drone operators, persons who can assist with drone technology.

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Hon.

Minister, under sub-head 02/001/21 Repairs and Maintenance, I am seeing an allocation of $2.5 million, can you provide us a list, or the buildings that will undergo such repair and if you have a list of the contractors who have been procured to do such?
Hon.

Young: What?

Contractors?

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: And the buildings that will undergo this repair and maintenance.

51 Hon.

Young: You always interested in contractors, eh?

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Answer the question “nah”.

Hon.

Young: Madam Chair, the answer is this money will be utilized to maintain and repair all 73 police stations, 30 other police buildings, towards the end of fiscal 2019; at this stage we do not know who the contractors will be.
Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: And I will presume there will be a procurement process also.

Hon.

Young: Absolutely.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Minister has partially answered the question that I am about to pose in relation to contract employment, Minister, and the specialized units.

Could you just elaborate on the number of vacancies that will be filled in the various specialized units?

Hon.
Hon.

Young: Madam Chair, at this stage we are looking at four experts in the cybercrime unit and two network security experts in that cybercrime unit.

Those are the new positions to be filled; of course, this is to also supplement those who are already existing in these units.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

To the hon.

Minister, under Other Contracted Services, just to follow up on a point made by the Member for Caroni Central.
It says the sum is required to procure consultancy services to assist the police service in prosecution.

The question really is whether or not the TTPS has already or is currently recruiting— Hon.

Young: What is the question?

Mr. Padarath:—any of these consultants?

Hon.

Young: Yes.

Mr. Padarath: Yes.

So it is actively happening before the supplementation is— Hon.
Young: This is a supplementation; so as I said a short while ago they have already procured, as we all know; there are already persons in positions so this is to add to that amount of persons who are already in position.
Mr. Padarath: And line item 03/001/04 Other Minor Equipment, the sum is required to procure equipment to enhance the TTPS crime-fighting capabilities, could the Minister give us an idea of what this expenditure in terms of minor equipment would entail with respect to crime-fighting capabilities?

Mr. Young: Tasers, pepper spray, surveillance equipment, bulletproof vests, utility belts, routers, switches, body-worn cameras.

Mr. Padarath: Okay.

Question put and agreed to.


Head 64 supplemented by the sum of $75,000,000.

Madam Chairman: Thank you to the Minister of National Security, thank you to the Commissioner of Police and to the members of your team.

We now revert to the normal order.

3.50 p.m. Head 26: Ministry of Education, a supplementation of $50,000,000.

Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Education to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Minister.
Minister.

Mr. Garcia: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, there are three areas that have been identified as additional expenditure for our mid-year review.

These three areas are short- term employment, fees and the National School Dietary Services Limited.

We are now open to questions.

Question proposed: That Head 26 be supplemented by the sum of $50,000,000.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

To the hon.

Minister, line Item 04/011/02—National Schools Dietary Services Limited.
Minister, we see an allocation of $24.2 million, and we know for a while that there have been claims of caterers and so have outstanding payments.

Could the hon.

52 Minister indicate whether or not this allocation of $24 million would take care of all those outstanding payments or, if not all, the percentage of that?

Mr. Garcia: The simple answer to this question is no, but we are working assiduously to ensure that all our caterers are paid.
Mr. Padarath: Could the Minister give us an idea in terms of a percentage of how much of the outstanding payments will be taken care of with this allocation?

Mr. Garcia: About 33 1/3 per cent.

Mr. Padarath: One-third.

Could the hon.

Minister give us an idea of how many caterers currently have outstanding balances?

It is for payments?

Mr. Garcia: Most of the caterers are owed outstanding money.

At this point, I cannot quantify the number of caterers.

Mr. Padarath: Would the hon.


Minister be kind enough to provide that to us subsequently?

Mr. Garcia: Certainly.

We will provide that answer for you.

Mr. Karim: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Hon.

Minister, this figure is for caterers and suppliers.

Of this $24.2 million, how much of that will be for the caterers and how much will be for suppliers?

Mr. Garcia: You will get that breakdown in writing.
Mr. Karim: Can you say, as well, effective how soon will the caterers be receiving what is due to them?

Mr. Garcia: Well, as soon as the mid-year review has been passed, then we expect the caterers to be paid.

Mr. Karim: Will there be any further cuts in terms of this figure being allocated now?

Will there be any reduction in meals?

Mr. Garcia: We do not anticipate any reduction in meals.

Mr. Karim: Do you see any reduction in caterers?

Mr. Garcia: Neither.


Mr. Karim: When was the last—might you be able to add—I am trying to make some calculations arithmetically.

Might you be able to tell us what is the cost or what is being paid to caterers for a lunch and for a breakfast?

Mr. Garcia: That has been said over and over many times.

Mr. Karim: But I am sure you remember it very well, so you could tell us now.

Mr. Garcia: I will give you that information.


Mr. Karim: I thought you said— Mr. Garcia: Yes, it has been told over and over, so I thought you would have known that.

Mr. Karim: All right, okay.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Line Item 02/001/22.

Can the hon.

Minister indicate how many invigilators does the Ministry hire— Mr. Garcia: Invigilators.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein:—yes—the addition, yes—on average each year and how many will be paid from this sum please?
Mr. Garcia: I will give you that answer in writing.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Hon.

Minister, nice to see you there.

[Laughter] Take a smile.

Anyway.

The examination fees have increased by $18 million.

Could you just give us an idea?

I know that you had budgeted $46 million in 2019, but you are now asking for another $18.8 million.

What would have been responsible for that?

Are there more examinations we are paying CXC for?


Mr. Garcia: There was a shortfall in the allocation that we received and that is the reason why now we have this deficit.

Dr. Gopeesingh: No, but Minister, if you go back to 18—and they say $46 million, but this is in 53 addition to the $46 million that we have been paying yearly for the last three or four years, but this one is 64.

Is there a reason?

Mr. Garcia: There was an outstanding balance for previous years.

Dr. Gopeesingh: From before?


Mr. Garcia: Yes.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Okay.

Mr. Garcia: Okay.

Mr. Padarath: Ma’am, the question was raised and answered, thank you.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Minister, I noted in the public domain recently that a CXC practical examiner indicated that they were owed moneys for SBA, school based assessment moderators, could you tell us if this will take care of that outstanding sum and how much is owed to them and for what period?
Mr. Garcia: I am not aware, first of all, of any CXC practical SBA examiner—first time I am hearing that term.

I am not aware of that.

Mr. Indarsingh: Well, are you aware that this is in the public domain, that persons who worked for, on behalf of the Ministry of Education are owed moneys in relation to marking school-based assignments?

Mr. Garcia: That is not so.

No one has been paid or is owed for marking SBAs.


Mr. Indarsingh: So you are telling this meeting that Ms. Veronica Romaine is telling a lie?

Madam Chairman: Well, Member, I do not believe that that is a fair question and I would not allow you to ask that question.

You have asked the Minister with respect to whether moneys are owed for SBAs, he says he is not aware that any money is owed.

You asked him if he knows it is in the public domain, he said no.

Okay?
Okay?

So I would not allow that question about Ms. whatever her name is.

I would not allow that, please.

Mr. Karim: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Hon.

Minister with this additional $18.8 million, will this totally clear your indebtedness for the cost of examination fees and, if not, what will be the outstanding amount?

Mr. Garcia: It will not clear and the outstanding amount will be somewhat in the region of $44 million.

Mr. Karim: And to whom are these fees paid?


Mr. Garcia: That will be for the caterers and the service providers.

Mr. Karim: No, no.

This is examination.

Mr. Garcia: You are talking about exams?

Mr. Karim: Exams, yeah.

Madam Chairman: 02/001/23.

Mr. Garcia: Okay.

Let me revise those figures.

Mr. Karim: No problem.

Mr. Garcia: The shortfall is still $10 million.

Mr. Karim: Okay.

And I was asking to whom these fees are being paid?
Mr. Garcia: These fees would be paid to CXC for the administration of the exams—the SEA, the CSEC and the CAPE examinations.

Mr. Karim: Okay.

Just a final question.

Hon.

Minister, with respect to the line Item in terms of the invigilators, will this amount of $7 million totally clear your indebtedness and, if not again, a similar vein, how much moneys will you still owe the invigilators?

Mr. Garcia: Yes.

I have been told that it will clear the money that is owed.
Mr. Karim: And I do not know if it was asked before, but forgive me.

How many invigilators are we talking about?

Mr. Garcia: I cannot give a number offhand.

If you want that in writing, I will certainly provide that 54 for you.

Mr. Karim: Okay.

Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni East.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 26 supplemented by the sum of $50,000,000.

Madam Chairman: Thank you Minister.

Thank you PS and your team.


Head 30: Ministry of Labour and Small Enterprise Development, a supplementation of $39,258,000.

Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Labour and Small Enterprise Development to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Minister.

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Thank you very much, Madam Chair and good afternoon to you and hon.

Members.

Madam Chair, the On-the-Job Training Programme was established in year 2002 by the then Prime Minister, the Hon.
Patrick Manning—Patrick Augustus Mervyn Manning—for the young people of Trinidad and Tobago between the ages of 16 years and 35, to allow them to obtain the necessary job experience.

This programme has been doing extremely well and, contextually, we are here to clarify any areas that are required clarifying by those Members in this honourable House.

Question proposed: That Head 30 be supplemented by the sum of $39,258,000.

Mr. Karim: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Hon.


Minister, you indicated or we have some information that with effect from November 2018, there was an average of 400 trainees per month have been recruited.

Is that accurate and if it is not, you can tell us what is the average amount?

But the question really is: How many more trainees will this increase be catering for?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: I would say approximately 1,600, averaging 400 a month.

Mr. Karim: Okay.
Mr. Karim: Okay.

Might you also be able to advise us as to—if you have the figure—those persons who are—can you tell us how many persons are currently on the programme?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Yes, certainly.

Madam Chairman, 5,033 trainees are presently— Mr. Karim: Okay.

I am aware of the levels.

I know it is five levels.

Might you be able to give us an idea of how we breakdown that?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Absolutely.


Level 1, the monthly stipend, $2,750; Level 2, $3,960; Level 3, $4,950; Level 4, $6,875 and Level 5, $7,920.

Mr. Karim: Okay.

I am aware of the figures because I had helped to increase the numbers, but could you tell us how many persons are in each of those levels?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Level 1, there is a total of 1,680; Level 2, a total of 781; Level 3, a total of 199; Level 4, a total of 1,819 and Level 5, 190.

Mr. Karim: Okay.

Hon.


Minister is it possible for you to tell us, of those numbers, how many trainees are engaged in the public sector and how many are employed or engaged in the private sector?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: The public providers, a total of 1,218; the private providers, 89 and NGOs, 34.

Mr. Karim: And that adds up to the total amount engaged now?

I do not find the arithmetic— Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: That is the number of providers.

Mr. Karim: Oh, providers?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Yes.


Mr. Karim: I was really asking if you could tell us, of the total amount who are—and I want to use the word “attached”—how many are attached in the public sector and how many are attached in the private sector?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: That information can be provided subsequently.

Mr. Karim: Okay.

Hon.


Minister, is it possible for you to tell us, because part of the sums of money here I understand will be allocated or will be utilized for hosting the pre-placement training session at the Cipriani Labour College.

Is that correct?

55 Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Yes.

We are having those sessions monthly in order to place a maximum 400.

Mr. Karim: And is that the only venue for the pre-placement training?
Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Well, it is the only venue that is available to us that we do not have to pay for.

Mr. Karim: But for the entire country of people who are going to be attached?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Well, let me put it this way, hon.

Member, we have had no complaints so far.


Mr. Karim: No, I was really asking in terms of the geographic spread of these potential OJT trainees who are going to be placed—and you have the pre-training sessions—do you think that one location for the entire Trinidad—I know there would probably—do you have one in Tobago?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Yes we do.

Mr. Karim: So, for the entire Trinidad, you only have one in the north.

Will this sum of money suffice?


Because you say you are getting it free at Cipriani but are you considering— Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Cipriani Labour College falls under the remit of the Ministry of Labour and Small Enterprise Development.

Mr. Karim: Are you considering any other locations?

I know the Minister of Finance may ask me— Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Well, I do not think that arises.
Mr. Karim: So I am just asking, again, just for clarification, are you indicating to us that there will be one facility that is going to be used in taking up some of this $39.258 million for the pre-placement training session?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Let me see how best I can simplify it.

It is our goal, our objective, to train and to place a maximum of 400 trainees each month.
The orientation programme is for five days and those programmes are held at the Cipriani College of Labour and Co-operative Studies.

Mr. Karim: Okay.

I want to simplify it and make it as palatable as possible.

The question is really, a trainee, a potential trainee from Guayaguayare who has to be placed—among that 400—will be required to travel to Cipriani College of Labour and Co-operative Studies?
Madam Chairman: I think Member for Chaguanas East, I think that point has been—because you asked in terms of the geographic spread, you have asked it.

So, I do not think there is any more clarification.

You might be wanting to underscore, but I do not know that we could afford— Mr. Karim: Let me ask another question with your permission, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: Yes.

Mr. Karim: What is the cost—you say the venue is free.

What is the cost of these sessions?

Do you cater?


Do you have anybody who you pay to train them or is it in-house persons?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Thus far, we are quite fortunate that those who contribute to the programme by way of sharing of their skills and experience and expertise do it for free.

Mr. Karim: Okay.

All right.

Thanks.


Dr. Gopeesingh: Madam Minister, you are bringing on 400 new ones every month, could you give us a lil idea, that is replacing—what is your attrition for those who have been in the OJT Programme for two years?

Approximately, how many leave the programme after two years?

Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni East, I would not allow that kind of questioning in this forum.

You are free to take it up in another forum, but not this one.
Do you have another question that is allowed in this forum?

Dr. Gopeesingh: No.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Member for Couva South.

Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Could the Minister be so kind—I know she may not have this information—to provide in terms of the number of people in the programme, currently, a breakdown by constituency basis?
56 Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Madam Chair, I would just like to advise my Member of Parliament that this programme does not operate on the basis of constituencies and he is well aware of that.

Mr. Indarsingh: I am asking if you are willing to provide.

Mr. Imbert: The information is not available, Madam Chairman.

It does not exist.

Mr. Karim: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Is it possible for the hon.

Minister to give us an idea of the numbers by offices?
For example, you have a number of offices to which these potential OJTs will go to register.

They could do it online as well.

Do you have a breakdown that you could assist my colleague in terms of the various offices, how many persons are they responsible for?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Madam Chair, I think I need your assistance in helping me to decipher exactly what the Member for Chaguanas East is asking me.
Is it that he is asking me how many offices at which young persons in Trinidad and Tobago can register to participate in the OJT Programme?

Is that what is being asked?

Mr. Karim: Okay.

What is happening—okay.

Let me ask another question.

Madam Chairman: So the answer to that is yes or no?

That is not what was being asked.

Mr. Karim: The question really is to get an idea as to how many trainees are responsible to a particular office.
For example, you have offices in Chaguanas, you have offices in San Fernando and you have offices in Port of Spain, and I think what my colleague was asking when he was rebutted in terms of a constituency, I am trying to assist to see for each of those offices because you have field officers.

Madam Chairman: So what you are trying to get is the geographic reach of the programme?

Mr. Karim: And the amount of people.

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Madam Chair— Mr. Karim: Oh God, this hard.
Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Madam Chair, I gave— Madam Chairman: Just now.

You know, there is penchant that we are developing for bringing God into here and, you know, I really have to tell all of us, you know, let us leave God for his other place.

Mr. Karim: Sorry.

It must be the month of Ramadan.

Sorry, sorry.

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Madam Chair, I am here to facilitate.

With regard to the question asked, I want to be sure that I understand it.
Is it that you would want to know, how many young persons were registered geographically?

Mr. Karim: Yes.

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: Because we have offices in Port of Spain, in San Fernando, in central, in Tobago and in the east in Tunapuna.

We do not have that information with us at this point in time in terms of how many persons registered at these offices and may I enquire through you, Madam Chair, what is the period that you are looking at?

It is January to April, 2019?


Is it January 2018 to January 2019?

Please guide me.

Madam Chairman: We are only looking for fiscal 2019.

Mr. Karim: Current fiscal.

Correct.

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: 2019.

Mr. Karim: And do you foresee, hon.

Minister, this increase in the allocation, do you foresee an increase in staffing?

Mrs. Baptiste-Primus: There may be particularly at the level of Placement and Marketing Officer II.

There may be.

Madam Chairman: Member for Couva South.

Mr. Indarsingh: No, Madam.


I am quite satisfied.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 30 supplemented by the sum of $39,258,000.

Madam Chairman: Thank you Minister, thank you PS and other members of the staff.

Head 39: Ministry of Public Utilities, a supplementation of $200,000,000.

57 Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Public Utilities to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Minister.

Mr.

Le Hunte: Good afternoon, Madam Chairman and other Members of the House.
It is indeed an honour for me to address this Standing Finance Committee in Parliament this afternoon as the Minister of Public Utilities where I continue to serve the people of Trinidad and Tobago.

Trinidad and Tobago, as a country, Madam Chairman, is woefully below recommended international standards regarding the storage per capita of water.

The figure reaching my attention from international consultants, our storage levels are approximately 5 per cent of the recommended levels.
As at May 06, 2019—[Crosstalk] Madam Chairman: Hon.

Members, I would like to hear the Minister of Public Utilities.

Couva South.

Minister, please proceed.

Mr.

Le Hunte: The volumes of water in the major impounded reservoirs which are the only source of raw water storage in the country are dangerously below the long-term average for the current period.
Madam Chairman, 59 per cent of WASA’s water supply comes from service water while groundwater, and rural intakes and springs represent 20 and 1 per cent respectively.

The remaining 20 per cent of WASA’s water supplied to the public comes from two privately owned operated desalination plants: Desalcott and Seven Seas.
WASA’s recurrent allocation for fiscal 2019 was 1,827,670,000 of which 556 million or 30 per cent is allocated to the purchase of water from Desalcott and 88.6 per cent of the allocation to materials and supplies is used for water from both desalination plants for which WASA has service agreements.

The Desalcott agreement, however, is the longest and dates back to 1999 and was amended in 2012 and is due to expire in 2036.
Madam Chairman, the increase in allocation of 200 million to WASA will facilitate the payment of all bills to our major desalination plant at Point Lisas and, by extension, ensure that the 98.5 per cent up time delivery reliability presently being experienced by the company is maintained.

In closing, Madam Chairman, in spite of the challenging environment, both myself and members of my team at the Ministry, continue to work assiduously to deliver all public utility services to all citizens.

I thank you.
I thank you.

Question proposed: That Head 39 be supplemented by the sum of $200,000,000.

Ms. Ramdial: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, can you state the period for which the outstanding payments will be paid?

Mr.

Le Hunte: The payments that are being allocated, as I said, will take the amount of money that is owed to Desalcott based on the allocation for Desalcott, based on past bills and based on bills to come, will allow us to meet that allocated payment.
The outstanding payment for Desalcott was brought forward from the 30th of September, 2018 and is what we have going forward.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Hon.

Minister, would you be in a position to indicate what is the total fee that WASA has to pay that will create its outstanding amount for both desalination companies on a yearly basis?

Mr.

Le Hunte: Yes.

The amount for invoices—I will just give you an example—to October to April so far for Desalcott totals $277,689,583.87.
So for the period October to April, that is the level of invoices and the amount of money that is due to Desalcott.

Dr. Gopeesingh: And the other one?

Mr.

Le Hunte: The other payment— Dr. Gopeesingh: Seven Seas.

Mr.

Le Hunte: Okay, I will probably provide you with Seven Seas.

I think I have it here but I will provide that one for you, the actual amount for Seven Seas.

Dr. Gopeesingh: All right.

So I get the answer that approximately six months, October to April or seven months— 58 4.20 p.m. Mr.
Le Hunte: But, yes, in the case of Seven Seas desalinated, the amount budgeted for Seven Seas was 106 for the year and we are up to date with Seven Seas.

So there is no problem.

So that is an average of how much Seven Seas will cost.

Dr. Gopeesingh: So totally, from what you said Minister, we are looking at close to about $618 million for payment for desalination water on a yearly basis?

Mr.

Le Hunte: Yes, you are looking at about that.

Dr. Gopeesingh: $618 million.


But you said they provide 20 per cent of the water— Mr Le Hunte: Yes.

Dr. Gopeesingh:—but they account for about 35 to 40 per cent of your amount of $1.8 million per year for WASA, why is that discrepancy?

If they provide 20 per cent water why are they accounting for about 40 per cent of your annual—?

Mr.

Le Hunte: Because the cost of desalinated water is woefully very expensive, the most expensive water that you could have.
Therefore, you are paying close to, in the case of $1 US, and in some cases a lot more in the case of the Seven Seas.

So it is a very expensive supply to provide water via the desalination plant, hence the reason why you are always trying to find a lot of money, that you would try to increase your water sources from other areas other than just the desalination water as a solution to provide for the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago.

It is way below the money that is actually being charged.
That is why it is disproportionate.

Madam Chairman: Member for Couva North.

Ms. Ramdial: Minister, would you say that these outstanding payments to Desalcott further, you know, hamper Desalcott’s supply to south and central with respect to servicing services?

Mr.

Le Hunte: No.

I mean, Desalcott has been very good that is why I mentioned that their uptime and their delivery is close to about 98.

I think I said 98.5, and that was just being give or take.

They have actually been very good.


As a matter of fact, during this period we are actually taking a little bit more than the required 40 million gallons that they produce a day.

They are up to averaging more like 41, 42 to help augment the shortages that we have been doing.

That was part of our contingency plan so we are taking a little bit more, and their uptime and delivery has actually been excellent.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 39 supplemented by the sum of $200,000,000.


Madam Chairman: I thank you, Minister of Public Utilities, Madam PS and the members of your team.

Hon.

Members, it is now almost 4.23 p.m., would now be an appropriate time for us to take the suspension for tea?

Hon.

Member: Yeah.

Madam Chairman: Yes?

And therefore then we would resume here at 4.50 p.m. 4.22 p.m.: Standing Finance Committee suspended.

4.50 p.m.: Standing Finance Committee resumed.


[MR. FORDE in the Chair] Mr. Chairman: Good afternoon, Members, as we resume Standing Finance Committee, we are on Head 43, Works and Transport.

Head 43: Ministry of Works and Transport $65,512,929.

Mr. Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Works and Transport to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Mr. Sinanan: Thank you, Mr. Vice-Chair.


Mr. Vice-Chair, the Ministry of Works and Transport is responsible for the infrastructure and the transportation network in Trinidad and we are here this afternoon to answer any questions pertaining to the two areas of allocation; one under the severance pay and retirement benefits and the other for the vessel, the Jean de La Valette, for the inter-island sea bridge.

We are prepared to answer any questions that might be forthcoming on the two areas.

Thank 59 you.
Thank 59 you.

Question proposed: That Head 43 be supplemented by the sum of $65,512,929.

Mr. Chairman: Member for Couva North.

Ms. Ramdial: Thank you.

Minister, with respect to the charter for an inter-island passenger vessel for $73 million, can you give us a breakdown of this cost?

Mr. Sinanan: Yes.
Mr. Sinanan: Yes.

The charter rate is $49 million; rental for crew members and vehicles, $814,000; local crew, $1,741,000; diesel fuel and lubricants, $16,153,000; insurance and professional fees, $1,323,000; other operating costs, security, janitorial, port charges, $2,253,000, a total cost of $71 million.

And NIDCO fees, a total operating budget of $72,798,000.

Ms. Ramdial: Okay.

And, Minister, when can we anticipate the arrival of this vessel?
Mr. Sinanan: The purpose of this vessel is to add to the fleet because this Government did promise an improved sea bridge.

We expect the Spirit to be taken out for dry-docking by the end of July, and this vessel is expected in advance to ensure that we have two vessels in continuous operation on the sea bridge.

Ms. Ramdial: So is it that it will start operating before July?

Mr. Sinanan: It is expected to start operating before July.

Ms. Ramdial: Okay.

Mr. Chairman: Member for Mayaro.


Mr. Paray: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, do you anticipate any additional costs for like berthing facilities or adjustments for this vessel when it comes in at both Port of Spain and Scarborough?

Mr. Chairman: Minister.

Mr. Sinanan: There are some adjustments to both ports but it has to do with the infrastructure at the port, because we are also in preparation for the two new vessels that have to come in next year.
So a lot of the work that is being done now, although some of it is to accommodate this vessel, it is to ensure that the Port Authority, both the location in Trinidad, and Tobago, is on par to deliver an improved sea bridge.

We do have challenges when we have cruise ships in the port, we have to cancel sailing.

The way forward is to ensure that even when we have these cruise ships in port, both the sailing to Tobago and from Tobago will not be affected.
So this infrastructure work is also to enhance that.

Mr. Paray: The work that is required, has it started?

And any idea of the cost to get it to completion to accommodate this vessel, this particular vessel that is coming in?

Mr. Sinanan: The work for this particular vessel is basically some ramp work.

I do not have the exact cost at this time, but I can furnish that at a later date.

Mr. Paray: If you could provide it for us.

Mr. Sinanan: Sure.

Mr. Paray: Thank you.


Mr. Chairman: Member for Point-a-Pierre.

Mr. Lee: Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Minister, could you explain how long this—you gave a cost of overall $71 million out of the $73, thereabout, how long is this charter for, the time period of this charter?

Mr. Sinanan: This is a one-year charter with the option to renew for a further six months.

Again, this is all with the division going forward.
So once the new vessels arrive, then this vessel would be taken out of service.

Mr. Lee: So the 12-month charter costs how much again?

Mr. Sinanan: Well, this is for the 12-month travel cost, it is approximately $145 million.

Mr. Lee: 145.

Mr. Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

60 Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Hon.

Minister, 0400701, can you state the number of employees that will be paid severance and retirement benefits from this sum?
Mr. Sinanan: The number of workers to be paid is 235.

We did pay already 238, so this is to supplement the fund so that a further 235 employees can be paid.

Mr. Chairman: Member, you good?

You are okay?

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Yes.

Mr. Chairman: All right.

Fine.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 43 supplemented by the sum of $65,512,929.

Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Minister, and thank you, Madam PS, and all the senior executives from the Ministry of Works and Transport.
[Crosstalk] Mr. Lee: I just want to, through the Minister of Finance, that all assurances of answers that would be given, that were not able to give today, would be given to the Members in due course or as soon as possible?

Mr. Imbert: It is an established practice— Mr. Lee: All right.

Mr. Imbert:—which practice shall be applied, except for Naparima.

Everybody getting everything except the Member for Naparima.

Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Minister.


Mr. Lee: One other thing, Chair, would we get it before Monday?

Mr. Chairman: Mr. Minister, he is asking a time frame.

Mr. Imbert: Some of the questions are easy to answer, some are complicated, so they will do it as quickly as possible, and usually the Budget Division makes the best effort to provide the Parliament with written answers before the debate.

They will try their best.

Mr. Lee: Thank you.

Head 61: Ministry of Housing and Urban Development $48,000,000.
Mr. Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Housing and Urban Development to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of no more than five minutes.

Mr. Minister.

Maj. Gen. Dillon: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development is primarily responsible for the formulation and execution of Government’s policy as it relates to housing and urban development sectors and we do it with two various agencies.
However, with respect to today’s request through the supplementary appropriation for 2019, we are focusing on requests from the Housing Development Corporation and the Land Settlement Agency with a capital expenditure of $48,000,000, and we hope that these would be distributed to three projects, namely, the rehabilitation and maintenance of HDC rental apartments and housing units; the housing and village improvement programme, and the regularization and regeneration of communities, greater Port of Spain region, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Welcome, Madam PS, and to your senior executives from the Ministry.

Question proposed: That Head 61 be supplemented by the sum of $48,000,000.

Mr. Chairman: Member for Oropouche East.

Dr. Moonilal: Thank you very much, Mr.

Chair, and thank you Minister.

Just a couple of questions, some questions may require supplying information in days ahead but some you may be able to answer.
On the matter of rehabilitation and maintenance of HDC rental apartments and housing, a supplemental for $20 million, would you be able to provide in writing the areas, that apartments and the estates, in particular, where this money would be utilized, the works?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: I can do that but it is primarily for the Greenvale area, primarily for Greenvale.

As you know, there was a situation in Greenvale based on the flood in October 2018.
61 Dr. Moonilal: But, Minister, then could you indicate whether this money is to pay outstanding bills for the clean-up and refurbishment, and so on, rather than to do new works?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: It is basically to pay out for most of the situation that was dealt with in Greenvale, and Oropune to some extent.

Dr. Moonilal: Okay.
Dr. Moonilal: Okay.

I am aware that there were substantial damage in that area to properties, and so on, would you provide therefore a list of the contractors and outstanding payments that would be used for this $20 million, where it would be used?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: We can do so.

Dr. Moonilal: Okay.

I thank you.


The housing and village improvement programme, could you indicate as well where exactly this $18 million would be used in which area and what specifically the programmes, the village improvement programmes to be undertaken?

I did take note that you have had village improvement programmes, I believe, in Moruga, and ongoing one in San Fernando West, I believe, now.
Is it other areas that you are involving with this programme, and if we may ask for a list of the targeted village improvement programmes to utilize this supplemental Vote of $18 million?

Dr. Moonilal: All right.

The $18 million was based on—out of that $18 million, $6 million is really based on bills, and so on, from previous— Dr. Moonilal: Programmes.

Maj. Gen. Dillon:—programmes.


However, there is another; for the other half of this fiscal year we plan to do another 100 units at a cost of $120,000 per unit.

The areas are still being surveying right now as we speak, so we have not determined those areas as yet— Dr. Moonilal: You have not determined?

Maj. Gen. Dillon:—because they are all based on social surveys.
Dr. Moonilal: Minister, could I ask what is the process, if you could just reiterate the process in the event that there are some areas that Members may have in their own locality that may fix the policy framework, may synchronize with your policy framework to apply for this type of assistance for a village improvement programme?
Maj. Gen. Dillon: The process is based on a social survey of the areas done by the Land Settlement Agency, and this programme really looks at the neediest in various communities, the very poor in these communities.

And so LSA would do a social survey and based on the social survey they will identify who are the neediest in the society that require this kind of attention, and based on that those are the people that are targeted.

Those are the locations that is a target.


Dr. Moonilal: Could I ask if the potential and recipients of this assistance would also be required to have a Certificate of Comfort?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: Not necessarily, no.

Dr. Moonilal: So they may be the “out-and-out” squatters?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: They could be, yes.

Dr. Moonilal: Could be?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: Yes.

Dr. Moonilal: Okay.

Thank you.


The regularization and regeneration of communities, the greater Port of Spain area, again, would you be in a position to state specifically what the $10 million would be used for in the greater Port of Spain region?

And by greater Port of Spain region, Mr. Minister, you could just tell us, for the record, what we understand “greater Port of Spain” to be?
Maj. Gen. Dillon: The greater Port of Spain touches Port of Spain itself but also goes outside in the urban areas as far west as Carenage, and as far east as San Juan/ Laventille; the greater Port of Spain— so it is the urban areas around Port of Spain.

Dr. Moonilal: The specific projects that you may have in mind to utilize the $10 million?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: Sure.

There are a number of different things.


I will tell you, most of the projects that are done touches on development in these areas with respect to roads, drains; sometimes it 62 depends on the typography, hillside steps and railings going up various hillsides, and so on, and it is a number of areas communities are being considered, and I can call them if you wish me to do so.

Dr. Moonilal: Excuse me?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: There are various areas being considered.

Dr. Moonilal: Sure.
Dr. Moonilal: Sure.

But do you have a list of the areas that are being—you can supply that at some other time?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: I can supply that at some other time.

Dr. Moonilal: Sure.

Madam Chairman: He would supply it in writing?

Hon.

Member: Yes.

Madam Chairman: Member for Naparima, you still have a question?

Mr. Charles: Yes.
Mr. Charles: Yes.

The housing and village improvement programme, could the Minister—I know you said you have a list where this programme will be implemented, could you give an idea whether at all, and it is only one, any area in the constituency of Naparima is being considered, has been considered?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: As I said, it is based on a survey, that social survey.

I said they have not identified those for the next half of the fiscal year as yet, the social survey is being done right now.
So it is based on the survey that determines where we are— Mr. Charles: Could you indicate whether that survey is being conducted in any part of Naparima given the fact that we have areas of real need, real need, in that constituency?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: Yes, it is.

Madam Chairman: Minister, could you shed light?

Maj. Gen. Dillon: Yes, it is.

It is being done in Naparima.

It is being done.

[Crosstalk] Hon.

Member:—the greater Port of Spain.


Mr. Charles: No, I was talking about the housing and village improvement programme, Sir.

Mr. Chairman: Hon.

Members—[Interruption] Okay, the Member for Naparima, Minister of Finance, please.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 61 supplemented by the sum of $48,000,000.

Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Minister of Housing; thank you, Madam PS, and to your senior executives from the Ministry.

Thank you.

Welcome, Mr. Minister; welcome, Madam PS.


Head 65: Ministry of Foreign and Caricom Affairs $6,000,000.

Mr. Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Foreign and Caricom Affairs to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Moses: Thank you, Chair.

The Ministry of Foreign and Caricom Affairs has been engaged in careful management of expenditure during this financial year.
The Ministry has been so mindful of the need to undertake its responsibilities and to deliver services at the standard at which it is required so to do.

During the first half of the financial year 2018—2019, the Ministry has utilized funds allocated and released to undertake relevant activities in the field of the Ministry and with respect to ensuring the proper operation of Trinidad and Tobago’s diplomatic missions.
With specific reference to these missions it was determined that certain repairs to flagship missions were required.

The funds to be allocated for this exercise will address these needs to ensure adequate and appropriate support for the work of the Government in the jurisdictions of Washington DC and London.
[MRS. ANNISETTE-GEORGE in the Chair] It is the intention that the repairs to the Chancery in Washington DC will ensure adherence to building code requirements for the jurisdiction, as well as standards required for disabled access including an elevator.

Similarly, Madam Chair, in London it is the intention to undertake the necessary repair to the Chancery to maintain integrity of the building as well as the image of Trinidad and Tobago.
63 Pressing transport needs will be addressed by the purchase of vehicles as well.

It is anticipated that the supplementary funds will address these issues.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: Thank you, Minister.

Question proposed: That Head 65 be supplemented by the sum of $6,000,000.

Madam Chairman: Member for Naparima.

Mr. Charles: Thank you.

Refurbishment of the Chancery, at the embassy in Washington, $2.6 million, am I correct?

Hon.

Member: Yeah.

Mr. Charles: Yeah.

All right.


And I am referring to a report, but I have a question, and the report of the Audit General identified some problems with the properties owned by the Trinidad and Tobago embassy, and it identified electrical problems, roofing, et cetera.
I am specifically concerned about the residents in Washington, and I say so, Madam President, because when I, in 2014, repairs were done to the living accommodation of the ambassador in New York, and they found that buildings of that era in the United States contained asbestos.

So it meant that all the ambassadors, or a number of the ambassadors before me were exposed to asbestosis, et cetera.
The question I am asking, in Washington, the building is of the same age, is attention at all being paid to the rehabilitation of the Ambassador’s residence in Washington or is this money only to be used for the Chancery?

Madam Chairman: Minister.


Mr. Moses: Madam Chair, cognizant of the priorities of the Ministry, and equally aware of the financial restraints within which we operate, we intend to undertake these works on a phased basis, and the amount herein cited, meaning, $2,600,000, is meant to cover expenses related to a wheelchair access, fire escape, the provision of a lift and installation, of course, a ramp for disabled persons as well.

That is the coverage of the sum contemplated here.


Mr. Charles: On humanitarian concerns, all I ask is that, please, check the Chancery in Washington just to ensure that there is no exposed asbestos in that building.

But I go on, Madam Chair.

The $1.5 million for vehicles, given the fact that you would not be paying taxes on the acquisition of these vehicles it would probably work out to about six or seven vehicles, could you give an idea how this would be allocated between Washington and London?
Madam Chairman: Minister.

Mr. Moses: Madam Chair, our calculation differs somewhat from the one just mentioned.

We have a number of missions beyond the two cited, but in this instance our intention is to make available a much reduced number of vehicles with this sum contemplated herein.

Mr. Charles: Could you give us the number of vehicles you budgeted for?

Mr. Moses: We think the number is four.

Mr. Charles: And these are to be allocated two each or—?
Mr. Moses: We propose to allocate them primarily to those two missions.

The final definition is yet to be established.

Mr. Charles: So therefore they were not based on requests from those missions and the need for those missions is based on a number and then you will subsequently allocate?

Mr. Moses: The Ministry of Foreign and Caricom Affairs undertake its work in a very systematic and thorough fashion and that allow us to treat with the matter as—[Crosstalk] Mr. Charles: I give up, next person.
[Laughter] 5.15 p.m. Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam, on the same line Item, could the hon.

Minister indicate what— Madam Chairman: 03/022/01?

Mr. Padarath: Correct, Ma’am.

Could the hon.

Minister indicate whether or not the Ministry has 64 identified what type of vehicles will be purchased?

And if the Minister can give us an idea, if he does not have the information now, but subsequently provide us with what type of vehicle?
And whether or not any of these vehicles have been procured or will be procured for the use of the High Commissioner and/or the Ambassador in Washington?

Mr. Moses: Madam Chair, with much enthusiasm we will supply the information just requested.

The specification as regards persons who would almost be beneficiaries of particular vehicles, that is not our orientation.

Mr. Padarath: Madam, just to clarify for the Minister.
Could the Minister indicate whether or not any of these vehicles that are being purchased will be specifically or have been specifically identified by the mission or the Ministry for the exclusive use for the Ambassador or the High Commissioner?

Mr. Moses: Not in that way, certainly not in that way.

There is nothing personal or highly personalized, [Crosstalk] but— Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance, I would like you to allow the Minister of Foreign and Caricom Affairs to answer the question, please.
Mr. Moses:—but certainly we would make the information available to you.

Once defined, we will certainly make the information available to you.

Madam Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Madam Chair, I hope I can make this as simple as possible.

Hon.

Minister, can you tell me if you have an idea of when you expect to purchase these vehicles in terms of taking everything into consideration?
Mr. Moses: Madam Chair, the month is May, the current financial period ends in September thereabouts, so our intention is to ensure that the vehicles are purchased during that span.

Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam, with respect to line Item 09/005/06/F/064, as well as line Item 09/005/06/F/004, which deals with Refurbishment of the High Commission and the Embassy in Washington, can the hon.
Minister indicate whether or not these sums reflect respectively for both, whether or not these sums reflect the total amount that would be required to complete the works?

Madam Chairman: Minister.

Mr. Moses: Madam Chair, the Chancery in London is a historical one.

Consequently, certain repairs are necessary, in the case of that building, roof repairs, the facade especially are highly expensive undertakings.
And as I would have mentioned before as regards Washington it involves wheel-chair access, fire escape and so on; and that is the coverage.

I might have missed the latter part of the question, could you repeat it, please?

Mr. Padarath: Sure, hon.

Minister, I understand your limitation.

Madam Chairman: Member.

Member.

Member.

Mr. Padarath: No offence meant, Ma’am, I will proceed with the question.

Madam Chairman: Yes.


But you know, even though “no offence meant”, you know, sometimes it does sound like that, and I am sure you did not mean it— Mr. Padarath: No.

I did not.

Madam Chairman:—take out the qualification.

Thank you.

Mr. Padarath: Certainly, Madam.

Madam, to repeat the question for the hon.

Minister.
Minister.

Does this sum of $2.6 million with respect to Washington, and $1.8 million with respect to the High Commission in London, reflect the total amounts that would be needed to complete the works?

Mr. Moses: Thank you very much, Chair.

Gratuitous expressions certainly would carry us a long way towards getting information, and in that regard, I would like to say the answer is, no.
That is why I prefaced my remarks by saying that the building, the Chancery in London is a historical one, and it is an expensive undertaking and an ongoing exercise.

Consequently, that sum cited would not be able 65 to cover all the required refurbishment.

Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam, to the hon.

Minister.

Hon.

Minister, could you give us then an idea of how much will be required to complete all the work?

Madam Chairman: In which one?


Are we on London or are we on Washington?

Mr. Padarath: Both, Madam.

Madam Chairman: In each?

Mr. Padarath: Yes.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Moses: That scoping has not yet been done, and I am not able to provide any such figure.

Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam, to the hon.

Minister.

Could the hon.

Minister indicate when did the Ministry take this decision to refurbish both the Washington Chancery and the London Chancery?
Madam Chairman: Minister.

Mr. Moses: Within the Ministry it is an ongoing exercise, I cannot recall exactly when, but we take the decisions after thorough processing of requests from our missions.

Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam.

Madam, to the hon.

Minister, I am almost certain that the Ministry will have their record in terms of when this decision was taken.

Would the hon.
Would the hon.

Minister be kind enough to provide us subsequently with this information in terms of when specifically this decision was taken for these two refurbishments and its expenditure?

Mr. Moses: Madam Chair, configured in the way that it is being requested of me, I am doubtful whether I can supply that information, but we will endeavour to satisfy the requirements and needs of the hon.

Member.

Madam Chairman: Member for Pointe-a-Pierre, do you have question?

Mr. Lee: No.

I did not.


Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 65 now supplemented by the sum of $6 million.

Madam Chairman: Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Madam PS.

Head 70: Ministry of Communications, a supplementation of $10 million.

Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Finance to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Mr. Imbert: From Communications?


Madam Chairman: I understand this to be the Minister of Finance’s show, so I expect you will be able to carry on.

Hon.

Member: He is the Minister of everything.

Mr. Imbert: Well, thank you.

Hon.

Member: He is the Minister of everything.

Mr. Imbert: It is—the Trinidad and Tobago Television Company has some rather antiquated equipment, has have had that for some time, and it is necessary to assist the company by giving it modern production and broadcast equipment.
As you would know, Madam Chair, in the modern age, this equipment can become obsolete very quickly.

So this is simply to assist TTT to upgrade its equipment to the latest technology.

Question proposed: That Head 70 be supplemented by an increase in the sum $10 million.

Madam Chairman: Member for Naparima.

Mr. Charles: Minister, when TTT was inaugurated we were told that it would be a profitable 66 organization and self-financing.
And if that is true, if it is true, why are we at this stage providing $10 million to support an organization that the intent was to be financially independent?

And does this indicate that TTT, once again, will be like all its predecessors, a non-profitable organization?

Mr. Young: Madam Chair, I apologize humbly for not being here for the start.

Might the Member for Naparima just repeat his question, please?
Mr. Charles: Oh, the question is: Why do we have to provide state subvention to an organization whose articles of association suggest it was established to be financial independent of the State?

Mr. Young: Madam Chair, we have long since moved away, as any practicing attorney would know, from the old articles or association and incorporation that had to give you the lifeline and the parameters within which you have to operate.
We took a decision as an administration to keep the state television service operational and to rebrand it as “TTT” to get away from what was previously occurring as CNMG.

And I would not want to use this good afternoon to get into how that organization was being utilized especially in period of 2014 and 2015 and the talk about “subventions” and “project icon” and “voices” and Phillip Alexander and Gregory Bissessar and all of these people.

TTT is now a proper organization.


There is a good board in place, and it is working towards the provision of a service.

They are making revenue albeit not as much as we would like as yet, and they are providing a service to the people of Trinidad and Tobago.

Mr. Imbert: Hold on.

But more importantly or equally importantly, if you read what is in the document it talks about live broadcast production.

Mr. Young: Correct.
Mr. Young: Correct.

Mr. Imbert: At page 11, it speaks about an increase in “live broadcast production”, and nowadays the equipment that is used for live broadcast is very different from what it used to be just a few years ago.

You can go live on Facebook now with the various small devices, so this is really to assist TTT in its live broadcast to upgrade it equipment.
Mr. Young: But to add to what the Minister of Finance is saying, when we say “live broadcast” here, it is not the social-media type of live broadcast, that would not cost $10 million as those on the other side are well-ware.

What we are looking at is upgrading the, for example, the big vehicles that you park outside when you are going to live with live broadcasts and these types of things, and those are what cost substantial amounts of money.

Madam Chairman: Member for Naparima.


Mr. Charles: Given the fact that we are still in the realm of subventions, would the Minister indicate whether the rebranding was just a change of name?

And could you give us the profitability of the organization since it was established?

Mr. Young: The organization has not yet started to turn a profit, and, no, the rebranding of it was not just a change of name, maybe it was to get rid of smell of 2014 and 2015.

Lysol.

Madam Chairman: Member for Naparima.


Mr. Charles: No.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Charles: Minister, could you just provide a figure in terms how much, the monthly subvention or the annual subvention— Mr. Young: That does arise.

Mr. Charles:—such as these.

Madam Chairman: Excuse me.

Mr. Imbert: I do not think it is relevant.

Madam Chairman: How many?

Mr. Charles: If he can give an idea of any subvention at all from the State to this new entity.
Mr. Imbert: Madam Chairman, just let me clarify something.

The Member for Naparima is speaking 67 about subventions and so on.

This is a wholly owned state enterprise, and like all state enterprises from time to time the shareholder will inject equity into the company by way of working capital, by way of funds for a plant upgrade and so on.

So this is simply an equity injection by the shareholder into a wholly owned state enterprise which is standard.
Mr. Charles: Minister, when there is an equity injection, it is always premised on an expectation of an ROI, a return on investment.

Mr. Imbert: Not necessarily.

Mr. Charles: So, you are saying that you do not expect a return on this investment?

Mr. Imbert: I did not say that.

I did not say that.

Mr. Charles: Thank you.

Mr. Imbert: I just say it is equity injection.

Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam Chair.

To the hon.


Minister, with the explanation provided— also speaks about an increase in live broadcast productions.

And the question really is, with request to programme scheduling that would necessitate $10 million for live broadcast productions, could you give us an idea of what areas or programme scheduling will create this increase in live broadcast productions?
Mr. Young: Ma’am, as I said a short while ago, the equipment to be able to broadcast live from a venture.

So, for example, a “for rum meeting”, I think that is what it is, a forum meeting on a Monday night, if they wanted to broadcast live [Crosstalk] from down behind “quito-quito” or down in Port of Spain wherever it is, the type of equipment you need to put outside to be able to then send the broadcast signal back to the headquarters, that is what it is for.

Madam Chairman: Member for Princes Town?


Okay.

Member for Caroni Central.

Dr. Tewarie: The Minister partially answered.

It was going to ask if “live coverage” meant “political meetings”, at least, as part of the inclusion, I just wanted to ask that.

Mr. Young: Madam Chair, as far as I am aware, every single television station in the country offers a service to anyone whatsoever once it is a legal event that is taking place that you can broadcast live.
This certainly is not being done for this side of the House.

As I said, it could be a forum, this is not “icon”, this is not “voices” this is not the expenditure of taxpayers money to the tune of $50 million for TV screens that never worked, et cetera.

This is equipment that anyone who wants to purchase a service from TTT to show live, be it jazz, be it Tobago Jazz, any of these types of events would be able to hire TTT to be able to provide a live broadcast service.
Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni East.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Hon.

Minister, the original budget that you had allocated for TTT as a state enterprise was $16 million.

Did you not foresee or you are saying that you need equipment now, and it is under the heading “Operational Expenses”; are there other counterparts in that terminology “Operational Expenses” beside equipment?

Are there human resource personnel included in that?

Mr. Young: That is not what we are here for for this $10 million.

No.
No.

Dr. Gopeesingh: No.

But you said, could you explain what you mean by “Operational Expenses”?

You went on one arm to say that you need equipment, but if you could explain what is the “Operational Expenses”?

Mr. Imbert: That is exactly what it means, “equipment”.

That is an operational expense.

Dr. Gopeesingh: That is the sole expense?

Mr. Imbert: It is for equipment.

Dr. Gopeesingh: So $10 million for equipment?

Mr. Imbert: Yes.

Mr. Young: To be able to broadcast live.


Dr. Gopeesingh: All right.

So why did you not put it as “equipment” rather than putting it under 68 the heading “Operational Expenses”?

Mr. Imbert: I am sorry.

Next time I will put it.

Dr. Gopeesingh: It is meant to deceive.

Hon.

Member: Exactly.

Madam Chairman: Member.

Mr. Young: Hold on.

Hold on.

Hold on.

Madam Chairman: Member.

Member.

Mr. Young: The only deceitful ones are—[Crosstalk] Hon.

Member: You will have to take that back.


Madam Chairman: Excuse me.

We are not going down the road with that conversation.

Member for Caroni East, I know you meant it, you know, to bring light— Mr. Imbert: No.

He did not.

Madam Chairman:—but I do not think.

Mr. Imbert: He very well meant it.

Madam Chairman:—it came across that way, so maybe you could just withdraw that comment.

Dr. Gopeesingh: I withdraw that.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

Question put and agreed to.


Head 70 now supplemented by the sum of $10 million.

Madam Chairman: Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, members of your team.

Head 78: Ministry of Social Development and Family Services, a supplementation of $227,548,500.

Madam Chairman: Minister of Finance, are you taking this?

Mr. Imbert: No, Madam.

Madam Chairman: I will now invite the Minister of Social Development and Family Services to make a brief opening statement for a maximum of five minutes.

Minister.
Minister.

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: Thank you, Madam Chairman.

The schedule for the senior citizens pension that was implemented in January 2019, was reviewed based on the new measures announced in the fiscal 2019 budget, and it was determined that there is need for a revision to align it with what was mentioned in 2019 budget.

Specifically, the 2019 budget presentation outlined that persons in receipt of a National Insurance pension person of 3,000 will receive a senior citizens pension of $3,000.
The schedule implemented in January 2019, reflected a different 69 position in that the threshold income ban of 3,000 provided for a payment of $2,500 and not $3,000 as announced in the budget.

Cabinet has agreed that the schedule to the senior citizens pension be amended to include the new income band exceeding $2,500 but not exceeding $3,000.

This is expected to result in 2,618 persons receiving an increase of $500.
In addition, funds totaling $126 million were vired from the senior citizens pension vote to effect payment of disaster relief grants to flood victims affected by the October and November, 2018 floods.

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Madam Chairman: Thank you, Minister.

Question proposed: That Head 78 be supplemented by the sum of $227,548,500.

Mr. Chairman: Member for Fyzabad.

Dr. Bodoe: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.


Minister, can you indicate with regard to the amount that was vired to assist flood victims, can you provide the amount that would have been allocated to flood victims in St. John’s Trace and Ackbar Trace area by the amount and the numbers, if possible?

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: Madam Chair, I would have to give that information in writing subsequently.

Madam Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon.


Minister, you indicated that 21,000-plus had received increases with the new income band.

Can you identify or tell me how many persons currently receive this senior citizens grant in total?

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: 96,870 persons currently receive the senior citizens pension.
Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: And can indicate, what is the total number of persons who were affected by the heavy rainfall during October and November, 2018 that received a grant from the Ministry?

Madam Chairman: The number of persons who received.

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: As at December we would have processed 9,526 applications.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: You would have processed; so, does that mean that there are still persons yet to be assessed?
Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: We have completed the assessment for an additional 1,106 persons however, there are still 900 and something—just now, I will give you the exact figure—939 additional assessments that have been done, but have not been processed.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: And the persons who have not been assessed, how soon can they be expected to be assessed?

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: By the end of this month.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: And when will persons begin to receive their cheques?
Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: The cheques will be distributed on a phased basis.

We expect to commence payment within the next week, and hopefully we should complete by the end of June.

Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Member for Caroni East.

Dr. Gopeesingh: Yeah.

I am just wondering, Madam Minister, the $90 million that you are seeking, if there are people who have not been assessed and have to be paid, how do you intend to deal with that?

Would the $90 million be sufficient for that?


Is that incorporated?

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: Yes, it is.

We would have projected based on all the applications received.

Dr. Gopeesingh: That is the 1,100 plus 900 to be done still?

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: Yes.

Yes.

Dr. Gopeesingh: All right.

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: It also includes 530 additional persons to be paid in the southern region for the floods that occurred there in November.

Dr. Gopeesingh: All right.

Okay.


Madam Chairman: Member for Fyzabad.

Member for Princes Town.

Mr. Padarath: Thank you, Madam, to the hon.

Minister.

Hon.

Minister, can you indicate whether both persons who enjoy the NIS, as well as the senior citizens grant will benefit from this?

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: Yes.

The persons who are in receipt of $3,000 NIS, they will now receive $3,000 senior citizens pension, if that is their only income, the NIS is their only income.

Mr. Padarath: Okay.
Mr. Padarath: Okay.

Madam Chairman: Member for Naparima.

Mr. Charles: Minister would you be kind enough to supply, not today, but in writing, the number of applicants who were affected by flood victims in the constituency of Naparima?

And how many were approved?—that is of the 9,000.

And I understand that you would not have it now.

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: Sure.

Mr. Charles: You could provide that in writing.

Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Member for Oropouche West.

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Hon.


Minister, I think it is a similar line of questioning as Naparima.

If you could be kind enough to give me the list of the outstanding persons in Oropouche West who still need to be paid for the floods in 2017 and for last year?

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: Sure, Madam Chair.

Sure.

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Member for Cumuto/Manzanilla.


Mrs. Newallo-Hosein: Madam Minister, could you indicate whether it will be the Ministry who will be conducting the final assessments?

Or will it be the regional corporations?

Mrs. Crichlow-Cockburn: The Ministry’s staff will be conducting these assessments.

Question put and agreed to.

Head 78 now supplemented by the sum of $227,548,500.

Madam Chairman: Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Madam PS, and your team.

Hon.


Members, there being no further Heads to be supplemented, I now put the question as follows.

Question put and agreed.

Appropriation for year 2019 varied by $1,839,198,300.

Madam Chairman: Hon.

Members, please note that the debate for the adoption of the committee’s report will take place on Monday, May 13, 2019, the time will be confirmed at Friday’s sitting whether we sit in the morning or only in the afternoon.
5.41 p.m.: Standing Finance Committee adjourned.
71 Schedule relating to the Supplementation of Estimates 2019 APPENDIX IV Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease $ $ $ $ HEAD 03 JUDICIARY SUB- HEAD 02 GOODS AND SERVICES Item 001 Judiciary Trinidad Sub-Item 08 Sub-Item Sub-Item 16 23 Rent/Lease-Office Accommodation and Storage Contract Employment Fees 456,831,700 514,514,500 57,682,800 237,231,200 294,914,000 57,682,800 235,269,900 292,952,700 57,682,800 22,284,900 35,284,900 13,000,000 95,000,000 126,682,800 31,682,800 8,070,000 21,070,000 13,000,000 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease HEAD 06 SERVICE COMMISSIONS SUB- HEAD 02 GOODS AND SERVICES Item 001 General Administration Sub-Item 43 Security Services Item 003 Public Service Commission Sub-Item 28 Other Contracted Services HEAD 13 OFFICE OF THE PRIME MINISTER SUB- HEAD 04 CURRENT TRANSFERS AND SUBSIDIES 83,347,000 86,347,000 3,000,000 32,418,000 35,418,000 3,000,000 24,187,000 24,760,000 573,000 1,800,000 2,373,000 573,000 952,000 3,379,000 2,427,000 410,000 2,837,000 2,427,000 268,153,240 280,153,240 12,000,000 147,428,320 159,428,320 12,000,000 73 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease Item 005 Non-Profit Institutions Sub-Item 03 Contribution to Non- Profit Institutions (Children's Homes) Item 007 Households Sub-Item HEAD SUB- HEAD Item 03 17 09 Children's Authority PERSONNEL DEPARTMENT DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME 005 Multi Sectoral and Other Services Sub-Item 06 General Public Services 63,018,930 69,018,930 6,000,000 5,450,000 11,450,000 6,000,000 58,998,100 64,998,100 6,000,000 57,769,100 63,769,100 6,000,000 51,000,000 53,000,000 2,000,000 10,000,000 12,000,000 2,000,000 10,000,000 12,000,000 2,000,000 10,000,000 12,000,000 2,000,000 Project Group F Public Buildings 0 2,000,000 2,000,000 74 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Project No.
002 Customization and Outfitting of a new office building at No 3 Alexandra Street, St Clair Increase Decrease 0 2,000,000 2,000,000 HEAD 18 MINISTRY OF FINANCE SUB- HEAD 04 CURRENT TRANSFERS AND SUBSIDIES Item 009 Other Transfers Sub-Item 11 Infrastructure Development Fund SUB- HEAD 09 DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME Item 003 Economic Infrastructure 5,945,001,890 6,674,188,961 729,187,071 4,349,206,450 5,058,206,450 709,000,000 2,375,905,960 3,084,905,960 709,000,000 1,597,547,000 2,306,547,000 709,000,000 83,831,000 104,018,071 20,187,071 Variation of Appropriation 0 20,187,071 20,187,071 75 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Sub-Item 15 Transport and Communication Project Group Project No.
A Air Transport 009 Construction of a Terminal and Associated Facilities at the ANR Robinson International Airport Increase Decrease 0 0 0 20,187,071 20,187,071 20,187,071 20,187,071 20,187,071 20,187,071 Transferred from Head - Ministry of Works and Transport HEAD SUB- HEAD 20 04 PENSIONS AND GRATUITIES CURRENT TRANSFERS AND SUBSIDIES Item 007 Households Sub-Item 10 Gratuities to Technical and Professional Contract Officers 3,322,500,000 3,340,500,000 18,000,000 3,322,500,000 3,340,500,000 18,000,000 3,322,500,000 3,340,500,000 18,000,000 115,000,000 133,000,000 18,000,000 76 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease HEAD 22 MINISTRY OF NATIONAL SECURITY SUB- HEAD 02 GOODS AND SERVICES Item 001 General Administration Sub-item 09 Rent/Lease - Vehicles and Equipment Item 002 Fire Service Sub-item 37 Janitorial Services SUB- HEAD 04 CURRENT TRANSFERS AND SUBSIDIES 3,747,052,000 3,954,052,000 207,000,000 813,605,240 957,605,240 144,000,000 245,718,860 369,718,860 124,000,000 94,006,600 218,006,600 124,000,000 72,507,420 92,507,420 20,000,000 5,796,000 25,796,000 20,000,000 249,177,200 305,177,200 56,000,000 Item 007 Households 51,302,000 63,302,000 12,000,000 77 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease Sub-item 04 Civilian Conservation Corps Item 009 Other Transfers Sub-item 02 Strategic Services Agency SUB- HEAD 09 DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME Item 005 Multi - Sectoral and Other Services Sub-Item 06 General Public Services Project Group G Equipment and Vehicles Project No.
008 Acquisition of Naval Assets 27,357,700 39,357,700 12,000,000 249,177,200 293,177,200 44,000,000 190,000,000 234,000,000 44,000,000 338,792,000 345,792,000 7,000,000 264,399,000 271,399,000 7,000,000 264,399,000 271,399,000 7,000,000 218,209,000 225,209,000 7,000,000 20,969,000 27,969,000 7,000,000 78 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease HEAD 23 MINISTRY OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND LEGAL AFFAIRS SUB- HEAD 02 GOODS AND SERVICES Item 001 General Administration Sub-Item 23 Fees HEAD 26 MINISTRY OF EDUCATION SUB- HEAD 02 GOODS AND SERVICES Item 001 General Administration Sub-Item 22 Short-term Employment 360,900,000 410,900,000 50,000,000 184,067,660 234,067,660 50,000,000 130,753,860 180,753,860 50,000,000 35,446,860 85,446,860 50,000,000 5,636,086,000 5,686,086,000 50,000,000 710,324,488 736,124,488 25,800,000 585,569,274 611,369,274 25,800,000 35,258,500 42,258,500 7,000,000 79 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease Sub-Item SUB- HEAD 23 04 Fees CURRENT TRANSFERS AND SUBSIDIES Item 011 Transfers to State Enterprises Sub-Item 02 National Schools Dietary Services Ltd. 46,000,000 64,800,000 18,800,000 1,721,052,132 1,745,252,132 24,200,000 324,937,391 200,000,000 349,137,391 24,200,000 224,200,000 24,200,000 HEAD 30 MINISTRY OF LABOUR AND SMALL ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT SUB- HEAD 02 GOODS AND SERVICES Item 005 On the Job Training Programme Sub-Item 17 Training 371,242,000 410,500,000 39,258,000 275,346,429 314,604,429 39,258,000 206,212,539 245,470,539 39,258,000 194,352,166 233,610,166 39,258,000 80 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item HEAD 39 MINISTRY OF PUBLIC UTILITIES SUB- HEAD 06 CURRENT TRANSFERS TO STATUTORY BOARDS AND SIMILAR BODIES Item 004 Statutory Boards Sub-item 51 Water and Sewerage Authority HEAD 42 MINISTRY OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUB- HEAD 01
 PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE Item 001 General Administration Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease 2,952,369,000 3,152,369,000 200,000,000 1,827,670,000 2,027,670,000 200,000,000 1,827,670,000 2,027,670,000 200,000,000 1,827,670,000 2,027,670,000 200,000,000 2,283,348,980 2,322,348,980 39,000,000 79,544,000 87,544,000 8,000,000 79,544,000 87,544,000 8,000,000 81 - - - - - - - Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Item 001 General Administration 79,544,000 83,544,000 4,000,000 Sub-item 04 Allowances - Monthly Paid Officers 3,400,000 7,400,000 4,000,000 - - Increase Decrease SUB- HEAD Item Sub-item SUB- HEAD 04 CURRENT TRANSFERS AND SUBSIDIES 011 Transfers to State Enterprises 03 06 Rural Development Company of Trinidad and Tobago (RDC) CURRENT TRANSFERS TO STATUTORY BOARDS AND SIMILAR BODIES Item 005 Local Government Bodies Sub-item 23 Port of Spain City Corporation 375,915,380 376,915,380 1,000,000 0 0 1,000,000 1,000,000 1,000,000 1,000,000 1,537,239,100 1,567,239,100 30,000,000 1,537,239,100 1,567,239,100 30,000,000 223,972,000 231,972,000 8,000,000 82 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease Sub-item Sub-item 24 25 San Fernando City Corporation Arima Borough Corporation Sub-item 26 Point Fortin Borough Corporation Sub-item 28 Diego Martin Regional Corporation Sub-item 29 San Juan/Laventille Regional Corporation Sub-item 30 Tunapuna/Piarco Regional Corporation Sub-item 31 Sangre Grande Regional Corporation Sub-item 33 Mayaro/Rio Claro Regional Corporation Sub-item 34 Siparia Regional Corporation 130,950,900 132,950,900 2,000,000 78,262,800 79,762,800 1,500,000 63,430,600 64,430,600 1,000,000 100,879,200 102,879,200 2,000,000 169,175,500 171,175,500
 2,000,000 179,060,800 182,060,800 3,000,000 80,715,800 82,715,800 2,000,000 82,041,100 83,041,100 1,000,000 75,668,800 76,668,800 1,000,000 83 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease Sub-item Sub-item 35 36 Penal/Debe Regional Corporation Princes Town Regional Corporation Sub-item 37 Regional Corporation Services - General HEAD 43 MINISTRY OF WORKS AND TRANSPORT SUB- HEAD 04 CURRENT TRANSFERS AND SUBSIDIES Item 007 Households Sub-item 01 Severance Pay and Retirement Benefits Item 011 Transfers to State Enterprises 64,700,700 67,700,700 3,000,000 83,261,900 85,761,900 2,500,000 13,171,400 14,171,400 1,000,000 2,624,200,000 2,689,712,929 65,512,929 944,160,430 1,029,860,430 85,700,000 16,008,000 28,708,000 12,700,000 14,573,000 27,273,000 12,700,000 545,207,387 618,207,387 73,000,000 84 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Sub-item 20 NIDCO - Charter of an Inter-Island Passenger Vessel SUB- HEAD Item 09 DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME 003 Economic Infrastructure Sub-item 15 Transport and Communication Project Group Project No.
A Air Transport 009 Construction of a Terminal and Associated Facilities at the ANR Robinson International Airport HEAD 61 MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT Increase Decrease 0 73,000,000 73,000,000 333,587,000 313,399,929 303,087,000 282,899,929 251,587,000 231,399,929 71,500,000 51,312,929 20,187,071 Variation of Appropriation 20,187,071 20,187,071 20,187,071 Transferred to Head - Ministry of Finance 22,293,151 2,106,080 20,187,071 1,457,192,000 1,505,192,000 48,000,000 - 85 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation SUB- HEAD 09 DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME Item 004 Social Infrastructure Sub-item 08 Housing and Settlements Project Group Project No.
D Housing Estates 075 Rehabilitation and Maintenance of HDC Rental Apartments and Housing Units Project Group E Settlements Project No.

235 Housing and Village Improvement Programme Increase Decrease 81,750,000 129,750,000 48,000,000 76,050,000 124,050,000 48,000,000 73,050,000 121,050,000 48,000,000 22,000,000 42,000,000 20,000,000 - - - 22,000,000 42,000,000 20,000,000 49,500,000 77,500,000 28,000,000 10,000,000 28,000,000 18,000,000 86 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Project No.
236 Regularization and Regeneration of Communities - Greater POS Region HEAD 64 TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO POLICE SERVICE SUB- HEAD 01 PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE Item 001 Police Service Sub-Item SUB- HEAD 01 02 Salaries and COLA GOODS AND SERVICES Item 001 Police Service (Trinidad) Sub-Item 05 Telephones Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease 2,500,000 12,500,000 10,000,000 2,176,150,000 2,251,150,000 75,000,000 1,754,559,000 1,765,059,000 10,500,000 1,754,559,000 1,765,059,000 10,500,000 1,030,000,000 1,040,500,000 10,500,000 327,171,000 378,671,000 51,500,000 321,838,000 373,338,000 51,500,000 20,000,000 33,000,000 13,000,000 87 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease Sub-Item 13 Maintenance of Vehicles Sub-Item 16 Contract Employment Sub-Item 21 Repairs and Maintenance - Buildings Sub-Item 23 Fees Sub-Item 28 Other Contracted Services Sub-Item 37 Janitorial Services Sub-Item 58 Medical Expenses Sub-Item 96 Fuel and Lubricants 32,000,000 38,000,000 6,000,000 54,000,000 62,000,000 8,000,000 9,000,000 11,500,000 2,500,000 7,000,000 12,000,000 5,000,000 15,000,000 21,500,000 6,500,000 41,000,000 44,000,000 3,000,000 12,000,000 15,000,000 14,500,000 20,000,000 88 2,500,000 5,000,000 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease SUB- HEAD 03 MINOR EQUIPMENT PURCHASES Item 001 Police Service (Trinidad) Sub-Item 04 Other Minor Equipment SUB- HEAD 04 CURRENT TRANSFERS AND SUBSIDIES Item 007 Households Sub-Item 01 Ex Gratia Awards HEAD 65 MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AND CARICOM AFFAIRS 22,950,000 34,950,000 12,000,000 22,000,000 34,000,000 12,000,000 9,000,000 21,000,000 12,000,000 15,320,000 16,320,000 1,000,000 2,000,000 3,000,000 1,000,000 1,000,000 2,000,000 1,000,000 263,300,000 269,300,000 6,000,000 89 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease SUB- HEAD 03 MINOR EQUIPMENT PURCHASES Item 002 Overseas Missions Sub-item SUB- HEAD Item 01 09 Vehicles DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME 005 Multi-Sectoral and Other Services Sub-item 06 General Public Services Project Group F Public Buildings Project No.
004 Project No.
064 Refurbishment of Chancery, Embassy in Washington Refurbishment of the Chancery of the High Commission in London 258,500 1,838,500 1,580,000 212,000 1,792,000 1,580,000 0 1,580,000 1,580,000 3,300,000 7,720,000 4,420,000 3,300,000 7,720,000 4,420,000 3,300,000 7,720,000 4,420,000 2,500,000 6,920,000 4,420,000 0 0 2,600,000 2,600,000 1,820,000 1,820,000 90 New Project Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation Increase Decrease HEAD 70 MINISTRY OF COMMUNICATIONS SUB- HEAD 04 CURRENT TRANSFERS AND SUBSIDIES Item 011 Transfer to State Enterprises Sub-Item 03 Trinidad and Tobago Television Company Limited (TTT) HEAD 78 MINISTRY OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AND FAMILY SERVICES 225,589,480 235,589,480 10,000,000 16,639,840 26,639,840 10,000,000 16,600,000 26,600,000 10,000,000 16,600,000 26,600,000 10,000,000 4,965,420,000 5,192,968,500 227,548,500 91 Head/Sub-Head/Item/Sub-Item Provision in Estimates Revised Provision 2019 2019 including Direct Charges, Transfers and Virements NET Explanation SUB- HEAD 04 CURRENT TRANSFERS AND SUBSIDIES Item 007 Households Sub-Item 02 Senior Citizens Grant 4,757,005,595 4,984,554,095 227,548,500 4,692,869,195 4,920,417,695 227,548,500 3,590,947,000 3,818,495,500 227,548,500 Increase Decrease 92 APPENDIX V Proposals for the Supplementation of Appropriation for fiscal year 2019 AGENDA FOR THE SECOND MEETING OF STANDING FINANCE COMMITTEE OF THE 2019 SESSION OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE REPUBLIC OF TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO TO BE HELD ON 8th MAY, 2019 MATTERS RELATING TO THE 2019 ACCOUNTS ITEM NO.
F.C.

NOTE NO.

FILE NO.

SUBJECT 01 01 F:BUD:4/4/8 Supplementary Appropriation for fiscal year 2019 PAGE NOS.

1 - 12 NOTE FOR STANDING FINANCE COMMITTEE ITEM NO.

F.C.
F.C.

(2019) F:BUD:4/4/8 SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION FOR FISCAL YEAR 2019 Standing Finance Committee is being asked to consider the under-mentioned proposal: Provision of Supplementary Funds in the sum of One Thousand, Eight Hundred and Thirty Nine Million, One Hundred and Eighty-Nine Thousand, Three Hundred Dollars ($1,839,189,300) to fund urgent and critical Recurrent and Capital Expenditure to September 30, 2019, in areas where insufficient or no allocation was provided.

2.
2.

Standing Finance Committee is asked to note that as a result of the mid-year review which was conducted by the Ministry of Finance it is necessary to return to Parliament to seek approval for the Supplementary Appropriation (Financial Year 2019) Act, 2019 for seventeen (17) Heads of Expenditure totaling $1,839,189,300.
Further, the Standing Finance Committee is now being asked to approve the additional funding 3. amounting to $1,839,189,300 which is required to meet the following:- Personnel Expenditure - $18,500,000 (i) (ii) Goods and Services - $371,240,800 (iii) Minor Equipment Purchases - $13,580,000 (iv) (v) (vi) Development Programme - $61,420,000 Current Transfers and Subsidies - $1,144,448,500 Current Transfers to Statutory Boards and Similar Bodies - $230,000,000 These additional funds will be sourced from the Consolidated Fund.
Details of the total proposed net Supplementation by Heads of Expenditure are given in the 4.
Table below: Supplementation by Heads of Expenditure – 2019 Head of Expenditure Judiciary 03 06 Service Commissions 13 Office of the Prime Minister 17 Personnel Department 18 Ministry of Finance 20 Pensions and Gratuities 22 Ministry of National Security 23 Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs 26 Ministry of Education 30 Ministry of Labour and Small Enterprise Development 39 Ministry of Public Utilities 42 Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government 43 Ministry of Works and Transport 61 Ministry of Housing and Urban Development 64 Trinidad and Tobago Police Service 94 Amount $ 57,682,800 3,000,000 12,000,000 2,000,000 729,187,071 18,000,000 207,000,000 50,000,000 50,000,000 39,258,000 200,000,000 39,000,000 65,512,929 48,000,000 75,000,000 65 Ministry of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs 70 Ministry of Communications 78 Ministry of Social Development and Family Services Total 6,000,000 10,000,000 227,548,500 1,839,189,300 5.
Explanations for the areas for the proposed supplementary funding are as follows: Head 03 – Judiciary Recurrent Expenditure - $57,682,800 02/001/08 – Rent/Lease – Office Accommodation and Storage - $13,000,000 The sum is required to pay arrears of rent owed from fiscal 2018 and for 2019 at 19 locations ($13,000,000).
02/001/16 – Contract Employment - $31,682,800 The sum is required to facilitate payment of salaries and arrears of salaries to contract officers of the Family Court due to the revised terms and conditions of employment.

Funds are also required to meet the cost of filling critical vacant positions at the Criminal Division, these positions include Managerial positions such as Criminal Administrator, District Court Managers and Assistant Court Managers.
02/001/23 – Fees - $13,000,000 The sum is required to pay fees for the renewal of subscription for software used at the Family Court, and pay for services provided by funeral homes and interpreters.

Head 06 – Service Commissions Recurrent Expenditure - $3,000,000 02/001/43 – Security Services - $573,000 The sum is required to meet costs of security services.
02/003/28 – Other Contracted Services - $2,427,000 The sum is required to meet expenditure associated with assessment for Permanent Secretaries Programme and selection of Deputy Permanent Secretaries.

Head 13 – Office of the Prime Minister Recurrent Expenditure - $12,000,000 04/005/03 – Contribution to Non-Profit Institutions (Children’s Homes) - $6,000,000 The sum is required to facilitate the payment for children assigned to Private Community Residences.
04/007/03 – Children’s Authority - $6,000,000 The sum is required to pay salaries and operational costs of the Children’s Authority.

Head 17 – Personnel Department Capital Expenditure - $2,000,000 09/005/06/F/002 – Customization and Outfitting of a new office building at No.3 Alexandra Street, St. Clair - $2,000,000 The sum is required to customize and outfit a new building situated at No.

3 Alexandra Street, St. Clair which was procured to relocate the staff of the Personnel Department.
Head 18 – Ministry of Finance Recurrent Expenditure - $709,000,000 04/009/11 – Infrastructure Development Fund - $709,000,000 95 The sum is required to reimburse the Infrastructure Development Fund (IDF) vote.

Funds were transferred from this vote to finance exit costs associated with the Petroleum Company of Trinidad and Tobago (Petrotrin).
Head 20 – Pensions and Gratuities Recurrent Expenditure - $18,000,000 04/007/10 – Gratuities to Technical and Professional Contract Officers - $18,000,000 The sum is required to facilitate payment of gratuities to Contract Officers employed in the Public Service upon satisfactory completion of their contracts.
Head 22 – Ministry of National Security Recurrent Expenditure - $200,000,000 02/001/09 – Rent/Lease – Vehicles and Equipment - $124,000,000 The sum is required to pay outstanding bills to TSTT for the provision of CCTV Camera services.

02/002/37 – Janitorial Services - $20,000,000 The sum is required to pay outstanding bills to MTS for janitorial services undertaken within the Fire Services Department.
04/007/04 – Civilian Conservation Corps - $12,000,000 The sum is required to facilitate the continuation of the Civilian Conservation Corp Programme for the period July-September, 2019.

04/009/02 – Strategic Services Agency - $44,000,000 The sum is required to replenish funds to the Strategic Services Agency which was utilized to settle a civil court matter.
Capital Expenditure - $7,000,000 09/005/06/G/008 – Acquisition of Naval Vessels - $7,000,000 The sum is required to fund the service contract for repairs and maintenance of the Damen vessels utilized by the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard.

Head 23 – Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs Recurrent Expenditure - $50,000,000 02/001/23 – Fees - $50,000,000 The sum is required to facilitate payment of outstanding legal fees for services provided to the Ministry.
Head 26 – Ministry of Education Recurrent Expenditure - $50,000,000 02/001/22 – Short Term Employment - $7,000,000 The sum is required to meet outstanding payments to Invigilators.

02/001/23 – Fees - $18,800,000 The sum is required to meet the cost of examination fees for students.

04/011/02 – National Schools Dietary Services Ltd. - $24,200,000 The sum is required to meet outstanding balances owed to caterers and suppliers under the School Feeding Programme.
Head 30 – Ministry of Labour and Small Enterprise Development 96 Recurrent Expenditure - $39,258,000 02/005/17 – Training - $39,258,000 The sum is required to meet increased expenditure as a result of the recruitment of additional On the Job Trainees.

With effect from November, 2018, an average of 400 trainees per month have been recruited.
Head 39 – Ministry of Public Utilities Recurrent Expenditure - $200,000,000 06/004/51 – Water and Sewerage Authority - $200,000,000 The sum is required to meet the outstanding payments owed to Desalcott for the supply of desalinated water.
Head 42 – Ministry of Rural Development and Local Government Recurrent Expenditure – $39,000,000 01/001/01 – Salaries and COLA - $4,000,000 01/001/04 – Allowances – Monthly Paid Officers - $4,000,000 The sum is required to pay Salaries and COLA, and Allowances to 220 Municipal Police Officers.

04/011/03 – Rural Development Company of Trinidad and Tobago (R.D.C.)

- $1,000,000 The sum is required to provide a subvention to assist Rural Development Company with operational expenses.
06/005/23 – Port of Spain City Corporation - $8,000,000 06/005/24 – San Fernando City Corporation - $2,000,000 06/005/25 – Arima Borough Corporation - $1,500,000 06/005/26 – Point Fortin Borough Corporation - $1,000,000 06/005/28 – Diego Martin Regional Corporation - $2,000,000 06/005/29 – San Juan/Laventille Regional Corporation - $2,000,000 06/005/30 – Tunapuna/Piarco Regional Corporation - $3,000,000 06/005/31 – Sangre Grande Regional Corporation - $2,000,000 06/005/33 – Mayaro/Rio Claro Regional Corporation - $1,000,000 06/005/34 – Siparia Regional Corporation - $1,000,000 06/005/35 – Penal/Debe Regional Corporation - $3,000,000 06/005/36 – Princes Town Regional Corporation - $2,500,000 06/005/37 – Regional Corporation Services – General - $1,000,000 The sum is required to meet the payment of Wages and COLA and Goods and Services (including Scavenging, for the provision of Water Trucking services and Rent) at the Municipal Corporations.
Head 43 – Ministry of Works and Transport Recurrent Expenditure - $85,700,000 04/007/01 – Severance Pay and Retirement Benefits - $12,700,000 The sum is required to meet the cost of severance benefits owed to Daily Rated Workers.

04/011/20 – NIDCO – Charter of an Inter-Island Passenger Vessel - $73,000,000 The sum is required to enable NIDCO to meet the costs associated with the charter/hire of a high speed passenger vessel for the inter-island ferry service.
Head 61 – Ministry of Housing and Urban Development Capital Expenditure - $ 48,000,000 09/004/08/D/075 – Rehabilitation and Maintenance of HDC Rental Apartments and Housing Units - $20,000,000 97 The sum is required for the refurbishment of HDC Apartments.

09/004/08/E/235 – Housing and Village Improvement Programme - $18,000,000 The sum is required to enable works to be conducted under the Housing and Village Improvement Programme.
09/004/08/E/236 – Regularization and Regeneration of Communities – Greater POS Region - $10,000,000 The sum is required to enable works to be carried out in the greater Port of Spain Region.

Head 64 – Trinidad and Tobago Police Service Recurrent Expenditure - $75,000,000 01/001/01 – Salaries and COLA - $10,500,000 The sum is required to facilitate payment of Salaries and COLA and Allowances to Police Officers.
02/001/05 – Telephones - $13,000,000 The sum is required to increase the network connectivity and service, and the number of data sites within the Police Service.

02/001/13 – Maintenance of Vehicles - $6,000,000 Additional funds are required to service the fleet which has increased in size.
02/001/16 – Contract Employment - $8,000,000 The sum is required to fill vacant contract positions in specialized units such as the Cyber Crime and Social Media Unit, the Police Air Support Unit, the Financial Investigative Unit and the Crime Scene Department.

02/001/21 – Repairs and Maintenance - Buildings - $2,500,000 The funds are required to facilitate maintenance works on Administrative Buildings and Police Stations throughout the country.
02/001/23 – Fees - $5,000,000 The funding is required to process brokerage fees, acquire software licences and pay subscription fees for databases such as fingerprint and GPS, all of which will enhance crime-fighting capabilities within the TTPS.

02/001/28 – Other Contracted Services - $6,500,000 The sum is required to procure consultancy services to assist the Police Service in prosecution.
02/001/37 – Janitorial Services - $3,000,000 The sum is required to process payments for Janitorial Services due to additional facilities.

02/001/58 – Medical Expenses - $2,500,000 The sum is required to provide medical services to Police Officers in accordance with terms and conditions of employment.

02/001/96 – Fuel and Lubricants - $5,000,000 The sum is required to meet payment for fuel and lubricants, the cost of which has increased due to fleet size.
98 03/001/04 – Other Minor Equipment - $12,000,000 The sum is required to procure equipment to enhance the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service’s crime fighting capabilities.

04/007/01 – Ex Gratia Awards - $1,000,000 Funds are required to process payments for awards granted by the Compensation Committee.
Head 65 – Ministry of Foreign and CARICOM Affairs Recurrent Expenditure - $1,580,000 03/002/01 – Vehicles - $1,580,000 The sum is required to procure vehicles for the Embassy in Washington and the High Commission in London.

Capital Expenditure - $4,420,000 09/005/06/F/004 – Refurbishment of Chancery, Embassy in Washington - $2,600,000 The sum is required to refurbish the Embassy in Washington.
09/005/06/F/064 – Refurbishment of the Chancery of the High Commission in London - $1,820,000 The sum is required to refurbish the Office of the High Commission in London.

Head 70 – Ministry of Communications Recurrent Expenditure - $10,000,000 04/011/03 – Trinidad and Tobago Television Company Limited (TTT) - $10,000,000 The sum is required to meet operational expenses due to an increase in live broadcast productions.
Head 78 – Ministry of Social Development and Family Services Recurrent Expenditure - $227,548,500 04/007/02 – Senior Citizens Grant - $227,548,500 The sum is required to meet expenditure associated with the introduction of new income bands and commensurate increases in the Senior Citizens Pension.

In addition, funds in the sum of $90Mn.

were vired from the vote to assist flood victims who were affected by the heavy rainfall during October and November, 2018, these funds need to be replenished.
Variation of Appropriation It should be noted that a Variation of Appropriation is required also to meet capital expenditure in the sum of $20,187,071 as set out in the Table hereunder: Head of Expenditure 18 Ministry of Finance 43 Ministry of Works and Transport Variation Increase Decrease 20,187,071 20,187,071 TOTAL ESTIMATES 20,187,071 20,187,071 Funds were provided under the Development Programme of the Ministry of Works and Transport for the construction of the ANR Robinson International Airport.
However, Cabinet by Minute No.

1666 dated 27th September, 2018 agreed, inter alia, to rescind its decision.

Further, Cabinet agreed that Government (the Ministry of Finance) enter into a contract with the National Infrastructure Development Company Limited (NIDCO) for the provision of procurement, project and contract 99 management services in respect of the construction of the new Terminal and associated works at the ANR Robinson International Airport at Crown Point in Tobago.
Therefore, the sum of $20,187,071 is being transferred from Head 43 – Ministry of Works and Transport to Head 18 – Ministry of Finance.

100