Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698940510857.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 1 THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ The House met at 14:00.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to remind you that in the interest of safety for all present in the Chamber, please keep your masks on and sit in your designated area.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The items on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the Deputy President.

There are four supplementary questions on each question.

Parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on.

Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose.

This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform.
The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the Presiding Officer.

In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 2 fairness amongst others has been applied.

If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member.
When all the supplementary questions have been answered by the Deputy President, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper.

Members asking supplementary questions or raising a point of order may remain seated when doing so.

The first question has been asked by the hon LE Molala to the Deputy President.

I have been informed that the Deputy President will be answering questions from the Chamber as you can see.
QUESTIONS TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT Question 1: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you hon Speaker.

As government we have created regulatory environment that is very conducive to opening up the market for alternative power generation producers.

Within the framework of the Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, alternative energy generation measures are being explored and implemented to augment electricity supply and improve the stability of the grid.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 3 In addition, the President announced the amendment of Schedule 2 of the Electricity Regulation Act 2000, increasing the embedded generation threshold from one to 100 megawatts.
In this regard, the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, DMRE, has amended the electricity regulations of new generation capacity and has put together processes that should be followed to ensure the request by municipalities for own generation are speedily attended to.

Hon Speaker, currently, 292 small scale generators have registered with National Energy Regulator of South Africa, NERSA, and have the total generation capacity of 187 megawatts.
The IPP office is processing offers by IPP for approval by Eskom and National Treasury.

Furthermore, the Minister of Mineral of Mineral Resources and Energy has issued determinations on the required new generation capacity in concurrence with NERSA.

The determination made resulted in the procurement of 7309 megawatts from renewable energy.

Most of these power plants are already operational with less than 400 megawatts still under construction.
Hon Speaker, we can report that the following achievement has been made.

Preferred bidders for 2600 megawatts, for renewable energy known as Bid Window 5, were announced in 2021 with the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 4 financial close plan for April 2022.

The request for our proposals for 2600 megawatts of renewable energy under Bid Window 6 is scheduled for release this end of March.
Requests for proposals for 513 megawatts of battery storage is scheduled to be released by the end of April this year.

Requests for proposals for 1600 megawatts of renewable energy under Bid Window 7 will be issued in August 2022.

However, we must make the point that Eskom’s load shedding is not as a result of limited market role for alternative power generation, but mainly as a result of breakdowns encountered from the old and aging power generation infrastructure.
The Eskom Political Task Team continues to provide support to ensure that Eskom meet its obligation of providing electricity.

This support includes ensuring that Eskom in the short term is able to implement credible and transparent national maintenance programme, to ensure that power generation plants operate at optimal level to reduce negative impacts of electricity supply disruptions.

Collectively, these measures are aimed at addressing the current load shedding and future power generation needs.
I thank you, Speaker.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 5 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, I have been informed that hon M J Wolmarans will take charge of the follow up question in terms of Rule(137(10)A) of the National Assembly.

Mr M J WOLMARANS: Thank you, hon Speaker.

Hon Deputy President, since the objective of the Risk Mitigation Independent Power Producer Procurement Programme, RMIPPPP, is to procure energy from projects that are near completion.
And given that the energy availability factor is responsible for load shedding, what role should the RMIPPPP play in strengthening of the grid amid the declining supply of energy?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

The emergency procurement process was solely meant to augment the current short-term supply gap, alleviate the current electricity supply constraints and reduce the extensive utilisation of diesel based picking electricity generators.
This goes and bodes well for our mixed generation capacity into the future to allow more and more IPPs to come into the grid and this goes according to our IRP2019.

Thank you very much.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 6 Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy President, you would recall that the Integrated Resource Plan 2019, identifies the necessary generation mix of technologies to respond to the country’s demand for electricity in the medium-term.
And that, in terms of the RMIPPPP, projects are supposed to be connected to the grid as from August 2022.

However, you are aware that the deadline for Independent Bidders was extended three times.

The initial deadline was July 2021, the second one was 30 September and, the last one was January 2022.

Since the January 2022 one, we are not aware of any public communication from the department whether or not the eleven Bidders have achieved financial pros.
What are you going to do to make sure that as is indicated in the RMIPPPP, that indeed, these projects are connected to the grid to boost up the energy for the country?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.

To date, I think above 6000 megawatts have been connected to the grid flowing from IPPs.

I am aware that 400 megawatts are still under construction.

Of course, there are unforeseen delays which are delaying the connection to the grid.
But we are already hopeful that the process will go according to plan.

Because UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 7 already more than 600 megawatts have been connected.

So, we are heading there.

Thank you.

Mr G K Y CACHALIA: Hon Speaker, clearly, the market need to open up to help resolve our electricity crisis and noting that in this regard, the RMIPPPP has been postponed for the third time this year.
Part of this solution involves just to fill the gap currently plugged by expensive ...

[Inaudible.]

... in diesel suppliers.

Given that we missed the boat in securing a gas block in Mozambique and that the ANC is sitting on the upstream Bill which will remove some aspects of ministerial discretion, - thank God.
Can the Deputy President share much needed light on the prospective deals between Russia’s Gazprom bank and Azerbaijan Republic, SOCAR, and Central Energy Fund, CEF, to build a R7 billion natural gas to electricity plant at Coega, which incidentally has no pipeline and would cost R15 million.

Is this perhaps a replacement for a nuclear deal that the Cape High Court deemed unlawful and is now part of a sweet of Russian investments in other provinces?
Which may explain our dismal stance on Russian aggression in the Ukraine.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 8 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I’m not aware of these projects especially those that are Russian connected, I’m not aware of those projects.

The only thing I can confirm hon members is that discussions between our Minister of Mineral Resources and Mozambique are quite advance in terms of gas that we should transport from Mozambique to the country.
I can safely say, we have reached an agreement.

Thank you very much.

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much beautiful Speaker.

Deputy President ...

[Interjections.]

... AN HON MEMBER: You are out of order.

Ms O M C MAOTWE: ... She is beautiful.

Madam Speaker, you are very much beautiful.


Deputy President, the Minister of Public Enterprises indicated that Eskom is in the process of establishing a clean energy unit within Eskom, which will work towards ensuring that Eskom itself produces renewable energy for the country.

If Eskom has the capacity to produce renewable energy by itself and help the just transition process, why government investment so much money on independent power producers who are going to be a competition to Eskom?
And realistically, can UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 9 IPP supply the energy demands for the country’s industrial demands?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.

It was important for us to open the market and follow the IRP2019.

Because the demand is just too huge and currently, Eskom cannot meet the demands.

As we speak, Eskom has already started to repurpose Komati Power Station into renewable with the capacity of 244 megawatts and battery storage.
Which is a good sign from the Eskom’s side.

But of course, renewable energy takes long and the projects connect low amounts of megawatts into the grid.

I said, 292 small generators collectively have connected 187 megawatts, which is very low in terms of the need of the county.

As much as we open the market Eskom should proceed.

We are going to repurpose probably six or seven power stations.

Your Camden, Grootvlei that have reached their lifespan.

So this process is proceeding.

Thank you very much.


Question 2: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Honourable Speaker, indeed, on 10 March this year we consulted the traditional and Khoi-San leaders on progress made in the fight against the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic.
We communicated to them the intention of government UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 10 to lift the National State of Disaster as advised by the National Coronavirus Command Council, including calling on each sector to develop its own sector plan to continue fighting the spread of Covid-19.

The traditional and Khoi-San leaders expressed support for the work done by government in the implementation of the Covid-19 Risk Adjusted Strategy.
The leaders encouraged government to fast track the finalisation of amendments to health regulations towards ending the National State of Disaster.

The leaders further committed to continue in partnering with government on the path of advancing efforts on communities vaccinating against the Covid-19 pandemic, in the spirit of saving lives and livelihoods.
In accelerating our vaccination programme, we have consistently ensured that we also consult with interfaith leaders to solicit their inputs, and access places of worship to promote vaccination.

In our view, these consultations, which are not only with the traditional and with Khoi-San leaders, have reaffirmed South Africa’s strength of working in partnership with various social partners for the common good of our country.
The success we have achieved in bringing down Covid-19 infections, hospitalisation and deaths is due to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 11 strong partnerships with various social formations and communities.

We must thank the private sector, organised labour, civil society, sport federations, athletes, artists and cultural workers, as well as all vaccination ambassadors who gave time and resources to partner with government in the fight against the Covid-19 pandemic.
I thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Good afternoon, Deputy President.

Deputy President, let me start out by saying that I could not wait for my vaccine; I was the first person in line, I was the first person to have my second vaccine and I have had booster.

I am a very big believer in science and I know that we can’t force anyone to believe it, but I believe in it, and if I could, I would shout it from the roof tops that we need our vaccines.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

It is something that I actually have to applaud government on.

When I turn on an SABC channel, there are adverts about the vaccine and telling us that the vaccine is safe.

We know that the vaccine is safe, but I can’t believe I am going to say these words, because for me, I am so sick of hearing about commissions and command councils and things like that.
I honestly think that it is time that we have a commission of our traditional leaders and our elders UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 12 who go around to areas where younger people ...

[Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: What is your question, hon member?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: My question, Madam Speaker, is: Would the Deputy President consider having a commission made out of the elders of the Khoi-San and traditional leaders to go to the areas and explain how safe the vaccine is and why it is so important that people have the vaccine?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think we have started that process with traditional leaders.
We started last year as we were trying to push very hard to reach our target in December.

We were together with traditional leaders, interfaith leaders as well as traditional healers.

They all agreed to partner with government to encourage our people to vaccinate.

I think we should continue that way because putting up a commission which will be another structure again would probably be too expensive.

It is very easy to work with traditional leaders to go to their communities where people live.
These traditional communities are willing to take up these vaccines.

So, the strategy now is to take the vaccine to our people where they live.

Thank you very much.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 13 Mr T B MUNYAI: Hon Speaker, thank you for the opportunity.

Thank you, His Excellency, hon Deputy President Mabuza, for answering the question.
His Excellency, President Ramaphosa, has described vaccination rollout as the largest emergency project to be managed by the democratic government, due to the vast distribution system required to inoculate millions of South Africans.

We welcome the fact that this programme has led to 17,8 million South Africans who are fully vaccinated whilst 33,4 million doses have been administered in the country.
As the chairperson of the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Covid-19 Vaccine, what capabilities has this programme build in our health care system?

What lessons have been learned in harnessing the entire health care system, inclusive of the private sector, as envisaged by the ANC National Insurance Policy?

Thank you, hon Speaker.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I think, through this mega project, government has learned to work together with civil society, private sector and a whole range of stakeholders to implement this project.

It was not an easy journey and we are still in that journey.
Of course, there are notable achievements that we have made because we have managed to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 14 vaccinate that number of our people, and of course, we have not reached our target.

We are still calling upon our people to go out in their numbers to go and vaccinate.

I heard yesterday someone was urged here to go and vaccinate.

It is a good thing, Reverend, it is a good thing to go and vaccinate.
This is the only protection that is scientifically proven that can help us from this Covid-19.

We have learned through this project to manage a pandemic, and I think in the process we have managed to build a very resilient and a strong health system.

We were not going to succeed and be where we are if we had a weak health system.

We must, upfront, thank our health workers, some of them died in the line of duty and were brave enough not to surrender but to go forward and ensure that people are vaccinated.
[Applause.]

So, we must thank them.

We must also thank the Minister of Health and the entire department for all the courage and the hard work to try and get everyone vaccinated everywhere in the country.

This has taught us that we need to partner with our people.

The department has done that very well and we must thank them.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 15 Ms M D HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, to the Deputy President, together with the Inter-Ministerial Committee, what discussion have you had with the Amakhosi in the KwaZulu-Natal province regarding funding, logistics, planning and public education for accelerated rollout of the Covid-19 vaccination?

I thank you.
I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Our meeting with the traditional leaders and Khoi-San leaders in KwaZulu-Natal was a very successful meeting.

We must thank the KwaZulu-Natal provincial government because there we found that they are working with the traditional leaders and carrying out programmes together.

Some of the programmes were led by the late ingonyama himself and the entirety of the family of traditional leaders followed.
They are doing very well partnering with government, and they are prepared to go an extra mile.

In the midst of the Covid-19 waves that we have gone through, KwaZulu-Natal was amongst those provinces that were hard-hit by Covid-19.

Through that partnership with traditional leaders and interfaith leaders they managed to pull through, of course, with a number of people that were lost.
We must thank the traditional leaders for their partnership with the government of KwaZulu-Natal, the same in Limpopo and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 16 Mpumalanga, where I went, and finally I went to the Northern Cape and it is the same.

So, traditional leaders are onboard and prepared to work with government.

Thank you very much.


Rev K R J MESHOE: Hon Speaker, to the Deputy President, people lose trust in government for a number of reasons including lack of transparency, telling half truths and unfulfilled promises.
Early last week you met with religious leaders to discuss matters around Covid-19 and vaccination, but did not inform them that churches with more than 1000 members meeting indoors would be required, according to the latest Draft National Health Regulations, to ensure that those attending have a vaccination certificate.

Such an omission has left these leaders feeling betrayed by government.
My question is whether or not you discussed this requirement when you met with the National House of Traditional and Khoi-San Leaders.

And if so, what was the reason for not raising this important issue with religious leaders when you last met?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sure that hon Rev was not part of that meeting with the religious leaders, therefore, you will not know exactly what we discussed.

It could be a hearsay.

To be honest with you, I have consulted with them.


I was not alone, in fact, I was with the Minister of Cooperative UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 17 Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, the Deputy Minister of Health.

These are the two that have presented our proposals and they have left no stone unturned.

They have said everything.

Now, just to respond to you about the interfaith leaders.
Firstly, they requested that we must release a relaxed regulation on the wearing of masks, especially for children in their Sunday classes.

They also said that they are not happy about the requirement that everyone who goes to church, if it is above the 1000 inside and they want to go above 50% of the venue they must then produce a vaccine certificate.

They said they are not happy with that.


They do not have a problem if a venue outside, like a stadium, you can produce a vaccine certificate, but they have a problem if that is done in the church.

That is what they told us.

Traditional leaders said thumbs up; everything is good.

That’s it.

Thank you.


Question 3: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker, our energy generation is guided by the integrated resource plan, IRP, 2019, which provides for the use of all energy resources available in the country.

This includes, amongst others, coal, gas and renewable energy resources.
Currently, hon Speaker, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 18 there are no plans for the discontinuation of the use of coal, as 99% of South Africa’s electricity supply is derived from coal and 30% of our liquid fuels are derived from the same commodity – coal.

Coal remains one of our largest natural endowments that will continue to form part of our energy mix in terms of the IRP 2019.
Notwithstanding this fact, our country is committed to forging ahead a low-carbon growth path that prioritises environmental sustainability, in line with our constitutional and international obligations.

We need to ensure that we deploy new infrastructure, technologies and solutions that enable us to adhere to ambient air quality standards, and protect the lives of communities from negative impact of carbon emissions.
Going forward, the IRP 2019 proposes the use of high efficiency, low emissions coal technologies.

Government is currently working on other measures such as the Gas Utilisation Master Plan and the Renewable Energy Master Plan.

We are exploring the development of the Nuclear Procurement Framework as proposed in the IRP 2019.

All these are part of the medium to long-term plans in ensuring security of energy supply.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 19 Having said that, it is important to point out that, out of the entire fleet, there are planned optimised plant shutdowns that is aligned with the integrated resource plan, to balance capacity, environmental, social and economic considerations.

This is inevitable because, in the main, these plants are approaching the end of their lifespan, and have become uneconomical, unpredictable and very costly to run.
Nine coal-fired power stations will be shut down by 2035, thereby impacting significantly on the reduction of generation capacity.

From a power generation perspective, this is an immediate priority to address the issue of generation capacity losses resulting from the planned decommissioning of these power stations.

Of course, the decommissioning of the existing coal-fired plants will drive the demand for new capacity.
As coal-fired units and stations are shut down, it is essential that new capacity is added to the grid, to ensure energy security.

In addition, the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy has tabled a plan for an additional 8 000 MW clean energy projects to be added to the grid over the next two to five years.
This is a combination of greenfield renewables and gas UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 20 projects, as well as repowering its existing coal sites, as the coal plant shuts down.

The costs for renewable energy technologies continue to decline as compared to when we started with Bid Window 1, and this will add generation capacity sooner and thus reducing the risk of load shedding.
For example, solar photovoltaic projects now take between 18 to 24 months to complete, depending their scale.

Wind projects have a lead-time of between 24 and 36 months, and gas requires 24 to 60 months to complete.

Of course, that depends on the amount of megawatts that are being constructed.

Our current focus on the implementation of the Just Energy Transition, is Komati Power Station, as the first coal-fired power station to be repurposed.
It will be repurposed in the next 12 to 18 months, using solar supported by 244 MW battery storage.

Komati is ideally positioned to be a flagship Just Energy Transition project to act as a proof of concept for subsequent projects at Grootvlei, Hendrina and Camden power stations.

These are power stations that will follow because they are scheduled to retire just before 2035.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 21 Clearly, the socioeconomic impact will be dire if nothing is done to implement Just Energy Transition plans that will repower and repurpose these plants to sustain local economic development activities and job creation in areas that will be affected by the shutdowns.

We need to state upfront that any just transition that government will undertake will be done sensibly and in the best interest of the South Africa’s economy.
As part of the energy transition process, studies were conducted on the impact of plant shutdowns on the communities where these Eskom power plants are located.

Studies based on the integrated resource plan programme, demonstrate that 300 000 net direct, indirect, and induced jobs could be created over the next decade by investing in the cleaner energy programme as described in the IRP 2019.
The studies have also looked into mining projects with specific attention to the repurposing of old mines, infrastructure and mine water, as well as the rehabilitation of mining land or property for farming opportunities.
A significant element of Eskom’s Just Energy Transition strategy is to ensure that efforts, initiatives and projects are aimed UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 22 towards safeguarding impacted and affected communities as far as it is possible when a coal plant is shut down.
The repurposing and repowering of the stations to be shutdown will also involve reskilling and upskilling of staff and communities to match and align their skills with new opportunities offered by emerging sectors, especially in renewable energy sectors.
Our approach to the renewable energy sector must not only focus on energy generation, but must also have at its centre the goal to stimulate local manufacturing and reindustrialisation in partnership with other industries and government, especially in the communities where these shutdowns are planned.
It must be a programme that contributes to the reindustrialisation and stimulation of South African manufacturing sector through localisation of the supply chains of components, technology and equipment whilst impacting on the development of black and women industrialists.

Without grid development, new generation capacity development will be moot.

The development of the transmission grid in the Northern Cape and Eastern Cape provinces is paramount to the addition of new generation capacity.
In aligning these plans to the expansion of the country’s generation capacity, Eskom has UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 23 tabled a transmission development plan for this purpose, which indicates that 8 000 km of line must be built in the next 10 years.

This project will require significant financing, which Eskom has tabled as part of the Just Energy Transition financing and regulatory support to acquire land and servitudes.
In the final policy-adjusted scenario, the costs that come with the transition should not be ignored, especially in the context of a fiscally constrained environment.

The speed at which we will be able to move will be determined by the scope, scale and availability of resources.

Due diligence will be taken to manage the Just Energy Transition financing modalities in a responsible manner that does not collapse the economy, and burden the fiscus with unsustainable debt obligations.
It is our conviction that our undivided focus on the implementation of our just energy transition and the completion of restructuring of Eskom, will in future deliver energy supply security and a much needed reprieve from the negative impact of load shedding.

I thank you.

The SPEAKER: I have been informed that the hon M V Mente will take charge of the question in terms of Rule 137(10)(a).
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 24 IsiXhosa: Nksz N V MENTE: Siyabulela Somlomo nobuhlke bakho.

USOMLOMO: Into ikulo mbala ubomvu ...[Kwahlekwa] ... English: ... now, I realise.

Ms N V MENTE: It is solidarity there.

[Laughter.]

IsiXhosa: ... mandibulele.


English: Deputy President, with your answer, I find it very difficult to believe it because right at the end, exactly what was going through my mind was that the balance sheet of Eskom is not saying what you are saying.

And the internal affairs of Eskom are not saying what you are saying.

Now, there are two things.

You are also indicating that the socioeconomic impact of this is dire to our people – it already is.
In fact, Eskom has given a literal meaning to black people being hewers of wood because we have gone back to making fire outside.

People cannot afford electricity.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 25 Now, with this plan, which requires a lot of money, there is on the other hand a Just Energy Transition, and we have to repurpose some of the energy plans, and we have Eskom that does not have capacity internally with a negative balance sheet.
How is this all going to be done?

Who is going to monitor it?

Where is this money going to come from?

I heard you saying that you don’t want to burden Treasury, but where will the money be acquired from?

Who is going to get this electricity by 2035 because right now, if you buy electricity for R50, you get 10 units?

Who is going to buy it in 2035 when we have repurposed all these energy plants?

Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

Thank you for the question.


The hon member will remember that government took a decision to support Eskom by giving Eskom more or less above R219 billion over a spend of three years.

And we are still on that route.

Eskom will still continue to receive its share or support from government for the next one year.

But the Minister of Finance indicated that this is going to be discontinued.

Eskom must find a way of stabilising itself.


In the current situation, if you look at the balance sheet of Eskom, Eskom is starting to show a positive outlook with the cushion that is coming from government.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 26 We have assisted Eskom and all energy users like government department, municipalities, and we have put pressure on them to pay, and they are paying.
With regard to national government, I must report that all departments have paid - co- ordinated by the Minister of Public Works.

They have paid what they owe from Eskom.

We are still encouraging municipalities and we are doing arrangements, Social and Labour Plan, SLPs, joint programme between Eskom and municipalities to allow Eskom to collect money from users and pay what is due to municipalities.

This is an attempt to try and get Eskom back to its original form in terms of finances.
Currently, Eskom is doing this project in Komati, repurposing that old power plant into renewable.

Eskom is doing it with its own money, and that process is happening.

We might not move at the pace that we are envisaging, but we are getting there.

We must also say – I have even said it in the response, that the renewables, when we look at Bid Window 1, were very costly to Eskom.

But if you look at Bid Window 5, the renewables are affordable to Eskom.
That means down the line we are expecting the price of electricity to go down, because of the impact of renewables that we are opening up to the grid.

This situation is not going to stay the same.

As much as we are being affected by load shedding because of our old UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 27 plants, we are discontinuing these plants and repurposing them step by step until we stabilise our energy security.

Thank you very much.


The SPEAKER: The second supplementary question will be asked by the hon S Luzipo from the Chamber.

Mr S LUZIPO: Thank you, hon Speaker, good afternoon hon Deputy President.

Recent statistics shows that unemployment has risen to about 35,3% in the first quarter of 2021 and it is estimated that 66% of that is jobless youth.
That suggest that we are faced with a serious problem and therefore any just transition or movement from high to low emissions must also be about addressing the triple challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality rather than increasing the levels of these challenges.

Therefore, what is government’s position in this regard as we can ill afford to lose existing sources of employment.

Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

I am in the House, no black cats.

[Laughter.]


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

We have stated in our reply that one plan is to try to reskill and upskill those that are currently employed in those power stations that are planned to be closed.
In an attempt to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 28 retain those that are working currently at those power stations but still we are mindful of the impact of the closure of the plants for the surrounding communities.

We are saying that we should reindustrialise and show that we can create industrialists in those communities, open up the markets for them to produce services rather than relying on Eskom.
Currently, what is happening is that jobs are only secured in the mines where they mine the coal and other jobs are secured in the power station where the coal is being utilised, and in between the transportation of coal from a mine to a power station.

Currently, those are the jobs that are there.

In terms of repurposing and upskilling of our people in the power stations, we are going to retain them there.

They are moving from coal to renewables.


In this case in Komati, we are going solar, and we are going to have people that would be employed in that power station.

Of course, there are new power stations that demands a lot of coal and I have cautioned that we are moving away from high carbon emissions.

We are looking at technologies that will lower the carbon emissions.

But Medupi and Kusile are new power stations that will still use coal.
In the near future we must find technologies that will reduce the emissions.

That is a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 29 commitment that we are not going to run away from.

The best permanent solution is to reindustrialise those communities around these power stations that are going to be closed by making sure they employ themselves and produce services that they can sell to the market.

Thank you very much.


The SPEAKER: The third supplementary question will be asked by the hon A M Shaik Emam through ... Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon Speaker.

Deputy President, we are a very suspicious nation.

Your visit to Russia and our neutral stance on the Russian-Ukraine conflict is making people very suspicious about this gas deal.

However, my question to you is regarding many of these mining areas particularly coal mining in this particular instance.
Now we know that as a result of pressure internationally, it will also affect our exports of coal, which means it will be reduced revenue.

What is very important, which is my concern is that ...

I am going to give you an example of land ...

[Inaudible.]

... in the West Coast of the Western Cape.

How it became a ghost town after the industrialisation was reduced.

What can we expect out of these areas surrounding these mines?
Is there no risk or danger that they will also become ghost UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 30 towns with high levels of unemployment and poor socioeconomic conditions that our people will live with.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.

Firstly, we must remove this suspicion about me going to Russia.

It’s purely a matter of medical procedure.

It is purely a medical procedure, and there is nothing sinister and there is nothing hidden.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

From here I go to hospital and from the hospital, I come back.

The SPEAKER: Order!

Order!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sure the hon members will respect the choice of an individual to choose a hospital ...

[Interjections.]

Thank you very much.

Now, the question ...

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ooh, I have excited you now.

[Interjections.]

The question is about the closure of these power station in the surrounding communities.
We are taking Komati Power Station as a pilot and all what we are doing now is that we have employed more people in Komati, that is, more than the number that was employed before.

But some of the jobs UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 31 will end when the power station is commissioned, but there are certain jobs that will remain.
The plan about the communities, as I have said – the only permanent solution - is to reindustrialise and reskill those people, allow them to be producers of services they can sell in the market, supported by government.

Who knows, probably, these communities can produce solar panels that will be utilised in those power stations.

There are a number of commodities that are going to be utilised in those power stations that we can open up the market for these communities to produce.
But let’s take Komati Power Station as a pilot, and we are going to improve from that one.

Thank you very much.

The SPEAKER: The last supplementary question will be asked by the hon W J Boshoff through the virtual platform.

Dr W J BOSHOFF: Thank you, hon Speaker, and thank you hon Deputy President for the opportunity.

I also think of preindustrial times in which energy is not abundant but widely distributed so that everybody would pick up his own wood and they use it on a daily basis.
That has all changed with ...

[Inaudible.]

... in the solar age, if you actually changing UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 32 back just to have a roof, enables one to generate the energy that one might use for their own family even some to sell.

What I want to ask is regarding the policy of embedded generators.

Does the Deputy President envisage a future when an equivalent number of producers and consumers are linked to the power grid?
In other words, where virtually the consumer is also a producer of electricity, having a smart grid to the capacity to utilise the country’s graphic spread and variety of ...

[Inaudible.]

... conditions.

Thank you, hon Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, hon Speaker, but it was difficult to hear, but the hon member is talking about the embedded energy generation.

The President announced the movement from 1 megawatt to 100 megawatts.

That has led to the amendment of the Act and it is happening.
The sole purpose of that is to allow companies that have the capacity to produce that energy to do so, but all that they must do is to register those operations with the National Energy Regulator of South Africa, Nersa.

That in a way should try and allow companies to sustain their operations.

They must not wait for Eskom; they must not be disrupted by load shedding; they must be able to generate themselves if their capacity permit.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 33 So, we are trying to open up the market.

We have opened it enough so that even small producers can come so that we can try to cushion and save our economy.

Yes, we agree that load shedding has a lot of disruptions in our economy, but with these new interventions that we are bringing through the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, I think we are putting a cushion and assisting the economy to sustain itself going forward.
Thank you very much.

Question 4: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker.

The President has established the Presidential Task Team on Military Veterans in order to ensure that, amongst others, there is urgent and continuous engagement with the community of military veterans in order to resolve their grievances.

The Presidential Task Team has since November 2020 held extensive consultations with different military veterans’ associations.
Flowing these consultations, it became evident that a multifaceted approach that brings different spheres of government to collaborate in accelerating the delivery of benefits to military veterans was necessary.

This would ensure that we sufficiently address the grievances of our military veterans.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 34 In advancing this holistic and integrated approach, the work streams drawn from a cross-section of government departments and provinces are seized with the tasks of resolving issues that have been raised by the military veterans.
Among other key issues the work covers the improvement of socioeconomic conditions such as education, housing, employment, institutional support, heritage, legislative review as well as pension and benefits of military veterans.

As reported by the President to Parliament on the 25 November 2021, significant progress has been made by respective technical work streams designated to focus on specific challenges that were raised.
More specifically, the pension and benefits work stream, is currently finalising the pension policy that considers inadequacies that have been identified in the Military Pensions Act, Act 84 of 1976.

In addition, discussions between the Department of Military Veterans and the National Treasury about the provisioning of military pension as provided for by the current legislation are at an advanced stage.
A draft actuarial report which is required to support the proposed changes to the pension policy will soon be presented to the executive authorities for consideration.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 35 In relation to the proposed Military Veterans Amendment Bill, the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans has taken an approach that emphasises the importance of an extensive definition of a military veteran, the qualifying criteria for beneficiaries and the role and existence of the SA National Military Veterans Association as a body that manages the affairs of military veterans.
The Department of Military Veterans is currently in a process of ensuring that all inputs of stakeholders are incorporated into the Bill.

Furthermore, as of March this year, the department has also started working with the government technical advisory centre in preparation for the costing of the implementation of the Bill.
Once all required processes like the socioeconomic impact assessment system report and certification by the Office of the Chief State Law Adviser are complete, the Bill will then be presented to the Cabinet system for approval so that we can solicit public comments by the third quarter of this year.

Thank you very much.

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Thank you, hon Speaker.


Hon Deputy President, it is very much encouraging to hear the initiatives which are being undertaken by our government in a multifaceted manner to seriously address the challenges faced by the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 36 military veterans.

The concern, however is that of time.

Quite a number of military veterans are at an advanced age and have to enjoy these benefits in their lifetime.
My question is, how will the hon Deputy President ensure that these important interventions you have just mentioned are implemented speedily by all spheres of government to resolve the challenges facing military veterans?

I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.

Well, currently there are support services that are being implemented which are prescribed by the current Act that we seek to amend.

By that I am trying to say that there is no vacuum.
The military veterans’ dependents are receiving education, their dependants are receiving support in terms of our health care system and the military veterans are receiving housing as we speak.

We are working together with provinces and some provinces have gone ahead in supporting military veterans in terms of building bigger houses.

What we seek to do should not be at the behest of individual provinces.
It should be something that is prescribed in the Act to say military veterans are going to get this, this, this and that.

That is why the Minister of Defence is in the process of amending the Act which will be a lifelong situation in terms of the benefits that must be received by military verbenas.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 37 We are trying very hard to consult and to amend the Act.

I am sure with the pension.


It is also going to be prescribed by the Pension Act so that military veterans can enjoy their pensions, whether statutory or nonstatutory veterans.

Thank you very much.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Thank toy very much, Speaker.

Deputy President, let’s be honest.


Amendments to the Act alone will not change the failures of the department, it will not fill the vacant critical positions, not replace the unqualified, incompetent and uncommitted staff of the department which are the main causes of the plight of the military veterans.

A skills audit company was appointed, but they were paid before the job was done.

The state of our economy and the ever decreasing budget is not merely enough for what the Act allows.
For all the expectations created by the Presidential Task Team, what is being done by the task team to address these challenges amongst many, and to ensure fair treatment of all statutory and nonstatutory military veterans with the respect they deserve as part of all these changes and amendments?

Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.


Well, right from the onset when we were appointed by the President, the first UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 38 problem that we encountered was the shortcomings in the Department of the Military Veterans.

When we looked at that department there were a lot of vacancies.

The capacity of the department was not up to scratch.

There was no head of department.

We have currently appointed the head of the department.
We are trying to fill certain positions, but overall we are looking at the organisational design of the Department of Military Veterans and whether this current design is fit for the purpose that is designed for.

There is a work stream that is doing that job for us.

They are going to come with their own recommendation on how best to reshape the organisational design so that it can serve military veterans.

That is one!

I don’t think we have increased the expectations of the military veterans.
I think they deserve to be supported by their own government because of the role that they have played in the development of the country.

Yes, there are basic things that must be given to the military veterans.

They must have a pension, whether they are those who are recognised as statutory forces, your former Defence Force ... but we must also know that there were those, like the uMkhonto weSizwe, MK, who were not registered.

They call them nonstatutory forces.


These disparities must be corrected so that all of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 39 them can receive a pension.

All their kids should be supported.

All of them must have a subsidised transport because they are aging.

They must also be supported in terms of their health.

That is going to happen.

If we fail to look after our military veterans, we will be failing as a country.

We are currently costing the Military Veterans Bill.
There are discussions between the Minister Defence and the National Treasury to look at the affordability of all the proposals that we want to incorporate in the Bill.

This is a positive step.

Of course we have a selection.

There is a work stream that looks at who is a military veteran, especially those from the nonstatutory forces.

You can hear that there is noise here and there, but the work is proceeding and finally all of them will be recognised for the contribution that they have played.
So, this is opening a new chapter in trying to formalise services that are given to military veterans.

I think it was a good idea to create the Department of Military Veterans.

It must be supported.

Thank you very much.

Ms N R MASHABELA: Thank you, Speaker.


Deputy President, when the integration process of the former soldiers of the liberation movement was completed in 2001, it was reported that for the 4 143 names appeared on the collective UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 40 nonstatutory force were certified personnel registered.

Of this number 15 805 were integrated into the Defence Force, 9 771 were demobilised and 13 107 were neither integrated nor demobilised.
The question is, does the government know what has since happened to those who were neither integrated nor demobilised?

What are the risks that these abandoned soldiers pose to the country’s security and rising rates of violent crimes?

Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.

I think those who were not demobilised, those who were not integrated, the respective political formations know these cadres - they know them.
In the case of the MK they know them, but we don’t want to assume.

That is why we have opened up this verification process for them to come so that they can be verified and be registered formerly so that they can access these benefits.

That’s the process that we are taking.

As much as we know them, but we don’t want to be conclusive.

That is why we have set up this task team, this work stream to verify them so that going forward we are quite certain that we are supporting the right people.
Thank very much.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

Speaker, the MK, Azanian People's Liberation Army, Apla, Azanian UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 41 National Liberation Army, Azanla, and other combatants joined the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, but reach retirement age too quick to save for a house.

The Defence Force has large tracks of land all over the country that can be allocated to them even if it is just 300 square meters.
We hear you are talking about many things we need to do to address their plight.

Housing must not be excluded.

The Navy in Simon's Town has done so.

It has identified the tracks of land that it is going to need in the next 20 to 30 years and they are busy arranging that the land be given to former combatants like I mentioned.
After Al Jama-ah had raised the matter with the Minister of Defence in Parliament, will you, Deputy President, identify other land that is available to fast-track the availability of land for the military veterans?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.

Well, we have the work stream that looks at the socioeconomic status of our veterans - that means the support that they must get in order to sustain a very good livelihood.
In that work stream there is a commitment from the side of government, especially the Department of Agriculture, to avail land for military veterans to teal and produce and sell their produce for their own livelihood.

That commitment had been made and that work stream is there.

We said to the military veterans that let them come UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 42 forward.

They will be assisted to put business plans for them to try to enter the farming business.
But most of them are too old to really engage on active farming.

Some of them require their pension, some of them need the support of their siblings and their dependents and some of them just need a house.

It will depend from those military veterans that will step forward and say I can still do this and I can still do that.

We will be talking to them and we are talking to them directly = all of them; all associations.

Thank you very much.


Question 5: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, we must reiterate that the Moral Regeneration Movement remains a critical platform to galvanise our society to advance the promotion of positive values and ethical conduct.

These positive values empower us to confront deep-seated challenges of moral decay within our communities, including in our public service.
This outlook is further underscored by the Auditor-General when announcing the Municipal Audit Outcomes of the 2019-20 financial year.

In that announcement, the Auditor-General pointed out that provincial leadership needs to work together with municipalities and focus on ensuring that political UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 43 leadership sets the tone of ethical and courageous leadership, service-orientation, good governance and accountability.
We, therefore, support the Auditor-General’s call by encouraging Members of Parliament, Members of Provincial Legislatures, Municipal Councillors to drive the desired change, especially in the local spheres of our government.

This extends to political and administrative leaders in the executive branch of government to effectively play its part in ensuring accountability in government spending and to inculcate a culture of ethical and accountable leadership in the service of our people.
To this end, the National School of Government has since introduced a training programme that will equip public officials including Municipal Councillors with the required skills and competencies to make ethical decisions.

The programme is also aimed at equipping these officials to develop organisational integrity, prevent fraud and combat corruption in the public sector.
This is in line with the ongoing work of the Moral Regeneration Movement to implement its Ethical Leadership UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 44 Programme for public office-bearers, which includes the induction of newly-elected Municipal Councillors.
To further augment the work of the Moral Regeneration Movement, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, in partnership with South African Local Government Association, SALGA, is implementing a project on ethical leadership in municipalities which is called Local Government Ethical Leadership Initiative.
The aim of the project is to develop a Code for Ethical Governance for municipalities which will have a similar standing as the King Code on Corporate Governance in the private sector.

This is in line with one of the focus areas of the Local Government Anti-Corruption Strategy calling for national dialogue on ethical leadership in local government.

This project is ongoing project and is aimed at producing a Code of Ethical Governance for our Municipalities.
The Moral Regeneration Movement will continue to engage local and district municipalities to incorporate their anticorruption strategies into the Integrated Development Plans for implementation and sustainability support.

Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 45 Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Deputy President, thank you for listing the success of such collaboration and we welcome any progress government has made in this regard.
However, to ensure a better public service to the people of this country we must understand the weaknesses so that there may be wider collaboration between all stakeholders.

Take us into your confidence, Deputy President, so that we may all work together in achieving one goal of promoting moral values within our public sector.
What are some of the difficulties that government is experiencing with the Department of CoGTA when reshaping the public sphere and what specifically are some of the root causes of these problems within local government?

Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, there are foreign tendencies that have crept in over time in our government system and those tendencies are now seeking to threaten the moral standing of our nation.
Corruption has become a problem and you can only look at corruption in our public institutions and forget to look at this corruption that is within the nation.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 46 If you have a good nation, a good society, you will have a limited prevalence of these social ills in our public institutions.
Therefore, it is important for all of us, as much as we try to assist our spheres of government, whether local, provincial, national, but remember that those people that are employed there come from communities; communities that are affected by all these social ills.

So, the point that I’m driving at is that as much as we want to seek to correct these problems, we must attend to the family as a basic unit; a unit that a society is built upon.
It is only at home where a child is taught to behave in an ethical way, it is only at home that a child is taught to live amongst society members, to respect.

Now, all that it’s an indication that our family unit is no longer strong as we expected it.

These children, these young people that are working in our institutions are from families, if they were well-brought up they would frown at corruption, they were going to frown at maladministration.
Therefore, this is a societal challenge, it needs all of us to stand up and deal with it.

This is the same as gender-based violence, racism, sexism.

These are social ills that must be UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 47 dealt with, not by specific people but by all of us.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Mr B M HADEBE: Hon Deputy President, indeed there is a saying that ‘charity begins at home’.

As such I couldn’t agree more with you with what you have just said.
The institution of traditional leadership has a critical role to play on moral regeneration through entrenchment of cultural value system of ubuntu.

I would like to get an understanding: How will this institution of traditional leadership strengthen its participation and contribution on moral regeneration through movement of cultural values?

I thank you.
I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, we are talking to traditional leaders, we have a standing formal arrangement that has been supported by the President, identified a few Ministers to really engage with traditional leaders.

They have their own challenges, that in the case that from the communities where they come from, there are bigger problems.

Firstly, the availability of land, where they stay.
All their UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 48 communities, especially the traditional communities, are not productively engaged in farming, whilst they have land that is in the custody of these traditional leaders.

Land is being invaded, there are those people that are advocating land invasion, which is incorrect, undermining the leadership of our traditional leaders ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

okay ... thank you very much for that correction, it’s land occupation [Interjections.]

yes.

There are those who are advocating for land occupation [Laughter.]

...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order!

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ... which is unlawful [Interjections.]
Secondly, the House of Traditional Leaders, part of the grievances that they have put across is that government is not supporting the house, they are not being recognised, there are a number of problems that are affecting the institution itself.

So, we have committed ourselves to work with them, but we want to put traditional and KhoiSan leaders at the centre of our moral regeneration movement.
We want to utilise traditional UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 49 leaders to inculcate the traditional cultures, which kept communities for so long together.

We are all coming from traditional communities and we were taught certain cultures, to live together, to respect one another.
This is what we want to achieve with traditional leaders, working with them, but also to fight all the social ills today, that all of us are now looking upon police to come and deal with these problems that can be dealt with by the community itself, by the society itself.
So, yes, this partnership that we are forging with traditional leaders, in the process we are going to resolve their problems but we want to take them back to their communities so that they are respected and they continue to inculcate the good cultures that must prevail in any community, in any society.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]


Mr C BRINK: Deputy President, to be honest I don’t think we can blame bad parenting for the tide of corruption in local government and neither will training seminars help to fix this problem.

There is a breakdown of the rule of law.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 50 Now, last week the Head of the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, appeared before the CoGTA Portfolio Committee and she admitted that very little progress is been made on prosecuting cases of serious municipal corruption despite billions in irregular expenditure in the past two decades; only a fraction of the people involved have been convicted of criminal financial misconduct.
Even if the NPA was well-resourced, which we know it isn’t, what we need is assistance of an independent body.

So, will the Deputy president support the DA’s proposal of an investigative and prosecutorial body, protected by the Constitution, to do the job that the Scorpions used to do?

Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, well, the question is appreciated but I don’t think when we are faced with a problem, all the time we create new structures; that’s not a good way of ...
I mean, we are committing ourselves further and further, and all those structures will need money.

So, instead, we should support the existing structures, empower them [Interjections.]

they do work [Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 51 From where we are standing as government, when we went through the COVID-19 we created the fusion centre and we realised all the institutions that are meant to deal corruption were collaborating and we went through.
Some of the people that were identified in those Personal Protective Equipment, PPE, corruption scandal are brought to book.

[Interjections.]

I mean, all those people that have been identified and they are being followed.

[Interjections.]

No, I’m trying to say when we have a problem let’s avoid creating more and more structures.

I’m confident that the capability of our institutions can deal with these problems, with our assistance.
It is not only the public sector that is corrupt, the public sector is being corrupted by the private sector, and the private sector and some people [Interjections.]

everywhere where there is a corrupt public servant there is a corruptee in the private sector.

So, as much as we are looking at corruption within the public sector, we must also look at corruption in the private sector.

[Applause.]

Thank you very much.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 52 Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Deputy Speaker, in August last year CoGTA reported to the portfolio committee that 16 municipalities were considered stable in the country while 163 were under financial duress and 108 had unfunded gadgets.

Under these conditions, Deputy President, it is not possible for these municipalities to deliver any form of services to the citizens, who, in most circumstances are the poor.
What structural changes does government intend to make to salvage the situation at the local sphere of government in the country?

And do these include changing the funding mechanism to make rural municipalities more financially stable?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, municipalities can be supported financially through their equitable share but that is not sustainable.

[Interjections.]

What is the role of a municipality?

The role of a municipality is to deliver services at the cost.
If they deliver water, the consumers pay for the water.

[Interjections.]

If they deliver electricity, the consumers pay.

Now, our municipalities do not collect the necessary revenue, and even if they collect the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 53 necessary revenue, there’s a disjuncture.
Revenue that must go to the maintenance of the infrastructure, that revenue goes to the payment of salaries; and we have an ageing infrastructure, there’s water leakage, ageing electricity infrastructure.

There is mismatch in local government.

That is why we are requesting provincial government to assist and support municipalities, in terms of making land available, put services on that land so that municipalities can sell the stands, can be able to put metres and bill.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

I’m trying to say a municipality is designed to sell services and sustain itself.

It must sustain itself.

Now, it should be preoccupied by increasing its revenue base by ensuring that they allow more and more residents to come, there must be incentives that are created in the municipalities for people to pay, which our municipalities are not doing ...

[Interjections.]

They cannot, therefore, survive completely from the equitable share.
With the equitable share, there are grants that are given to municipalities meant specifically for infrastructure, water infrastructure, electricity infrastructure, and even those UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 54 grants are being diverted to salaries; it’s unfortunate.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Question 6: IsiZulu: USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ngicela niyeke le nto eniyenzayo.

Ngiyanicela!

English: Can you be orderly?

Go ahead, Deputy President.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I was expecting a follow up question.

Oh, the next question.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, Question 6.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The last question.

Thank you.

I was expecting a follow up question.

Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker, as of 28 March 2022, we have administered 33,5 million COVID-19 vaccines to 20,9 million individuals including 19,35 million adults, as well as 1,55 million children aged 12 to 17 years.
This translates to 48,6% of adults having received at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccines.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 55 The coverage is not equal across all ages, with more than 68% of people 60 years of age and above having been vaccinated, compared with only 35% in those between the age of 18 and 34 years.
Whilst reaching unvaccinated older people and providing ongoing protection to this group through provision of booster doses remain a priority, increasing coverage in younger cohorts especially in 18 to 34 years old, is also key to increase coverage at the population level.
This strategy, which is protecting those most vulnerable and increasing overall population coverage, is important if the effects of any future waves are to be mitigated especially given the easing of restrictions as announced by the President on 22 March 2022.

It is critical that more people are vaccinated in order to reduce the number of infections, especially the number of hospitalisations and deaths associated with COVID-19 infections.
This will also help a great deal to reduce the impact of any future waves.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 56 The poor demand for and uptake of vaccination remains the largest barrier to increasing vaccination coverage.

However, we are encouraged by efforts of a number of sectors of our society that have implemented policies and programmes that are aimed at increasing the demand for and access to vaccination.
Moreover, surveys as indicated by Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, have shown that many unvaccinated South Africans are not opposed to vaccination, and are willing to be vaccinated.

In this regard, we are addressing identified structural barriers like bringing vaccines closer to the people in order to address costs of getting to and from vaccination sites for those wanting to vaccinate.
We do hope that more people will step forward and vaccinate so that we move towards full normalcy, and open the economy to reverse the losses caused by the impact of the coronavirus.

On the issues of workplace vaccine mandates, workplaces especially those with large numbers of employees have actively played a role in providing vaccination to employees as well as in encouraging workers to vaccinate.
We will continue to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 57 encourage employers to develop and implement policies that promote the uptake of vaccines within workplaces.

The regulations recently published by the Minister of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs provides an overarching framework that guides various sectors to promote vaccination as part of incentives to participate in specific gatherings and sporting activities.
All these protocols are intended to persuade people to vaccinate in order to contain the spread of COVID-19 infections.

Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

[Applause.]

Ms B N DLULANE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and thanks to the Deputy President, we welcome the lowering of restrictions by government as this will enable social and economic activities to further strengthen economic recovery.
As you have already answered what I wanted to ask on the structural barriers, which you have just indicated that 48% instead of 70% ... as government is putting structures that we must achieve.

Over the past two years, coronavirus has been mutating into different variants which were more deadly than the current UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 58 dominant Omicron variant.
Also, due to government’s intentions to lift the National State of Disaster as soon as the process of public comments on the National Health Act regulation is finalised.

May I ask this question: What are the possible interventions if we are to face another deadly variant after the lifting of the National State of Disaster Act?

I thank you, Deputy President.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker, yes, I think we have made an assessment as government and the Department of Health, likewise, and based on that assessment, we have identified some key areas that will need strengthening going forward so that we are prepared for any other wave.

We are mindful that we might face another wave and are doing everything possible to get ourselves ready.
We can only be assisted by our people by continuing to take the vaccine because it is proven that vaccines can always assist us from getting seriously ill, being hospitalised or even die.

As much as we can something to prepare ourselves, the best preparation is by an individual who must present themselves to be vaccinated.

That must happen.
That must happen.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 59 We are confident that the amount of people that have presented themselves for vaccination have created a necessary base of immunity going forward.

We would look different from when we were struck by the first wave.

We are now facing the fifth wave and a number of people have been vaccinated, so the effect won’t be the same.
We are still encouraging people to vaccinate and we are correct that some people are not opposed to vaccination but they can’t afford to travel to where vaccination sites are located.

That has been proven in our outreach programme, last week, in the Northern Cape.

More than 200 people vaccinated in a space of two hours because we came with the facilities and stations to them.

A number of people screened for TB and HIV and Aids.
It is possible that when we take these services closer to the people, people respond positively.

People are not vehemently opposed to vaccinations.

Thank you very much.

Ms M O CLARKE: Thank you, Deputy Speake, and good afternoon, Deputy President.

Deputy President, in terms of the draft health regulations states: 15A.
(1) A person who – UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 60 (a) has been confirmed as having contracted a notifiable medical condition or (b) is suspected of having contracted a notifiable medical condition may not refuse ... ... prophylaxis or treatment.

Currently, the only prophylaxis available to COVID-19 is the vaccine.

Does this mean that once approved, South Africans could be forced to get the vaccines in such cases?
In your capacity, as the chairperson of the ministerial committee, do these regulations contradict the President’s previous announcements that no person would be forced to get a vaccine?

I am one person that 100% supports vaccines and I and my family members have been vaccinated.

It should be one’s personal choice.

Deputy President, just a word of caution, should these draconian health regulations be approved, they have the ability to keep South Africans under lockdown indefinitely.
This is in itself a very dangerous situation in terms of the freedom of South Africans and civil liberties.

I thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 61 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It’s the Deputy President who must answer, please, hon members.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... as government, we are consistent.

There will be no deviation from the announcement made by the President.
Even from these health regulations, we are still not forcing anyone to vaccinate but we are persuading people to vaccinate because it is a good thing to do.

Some people are coming forward, some can’t because they can’t reach our vaccination sites.

We are doing everything in our power to reach our people.

In that process, we are not forcing anyone.

We are sitting with a number of people here and some are not vaccinated, but we aren’t forcing them.
As we speak every day about vaccination, we are persuading.

Nothing has changed.

We are not contradicting ourselves.

We are still relying on the individuals to see the correctness of going out and vaccinate.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 62 Ms M D HLENGWA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, and good afternoon, Deputy President.

Deputy President, a portion of citizens have elected to not accept vaccines.
This places those who are vaccinated at a risk but those who have not.

I would like to know what measures are in place at all government institutions and public spaces such as schools, universities and stadiums to protect those who have been fully vaccinated against variants from those who have not?

I thank you.
I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, as government, we think that the health regulations that we are putting forward will continue to help us going forward to manage the spread of the virus.

We still insist on wearing masks when we are inside buildings, on a minimum distance of a metre, and on washing hands.

Some of the minimum regulations that are presented by Health are going to remain post the disaster regulations.
We think people are going to adhere to these regulations so that all of us can behave very responsibly and save one another.

One thing that we are not going to do is to force people to go and vaccinate.

We think we will be crossing the red line.

All we can do is to encourage our people to go and vaccinate.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 63 It is like when one person is ill, the choice for that person to present themselves to a health facility is theirs.
You may decide not present yourself to a health facility – I have in the past decided to present myself to a health facility although very far because I was ill.

I don’t need anyone to push me.

The choice lies with an individual.

An individual must be persuaded and must be shown the benefits of vaccination.

Thank you very much.


Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, in light of university students that have been declined in some institutions and some universities that to implemented or wants mandatory vaccination policies.

The University of Free State issued a statement saying that they are waiting for directions from government and none has been given so far.

The FFPlus is against any violation of human rights and as such, it is against mandatory vaccination policies.
Government is on record stating that vaccines won’t be mandatory.

In view of your request to respect an individual’s right to choose any hospital of their choice which was your answer in the previous follow up questions ...

In light of government’s intention to end the State of Disaster, what will government do to ensure UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 64 institutions do not enforce mandatory vaccinations?

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, I think government’ stance is very clear.

It won’t change even if you can repeat the question many times, the stance is clear.

We are not going to force anyone to vaccinate but we are going to persuade people because we still think that vaccination is an individual choice.

An individual must be persuaded to see the benefits of taking vaccines.
I have persuaded some individuals and they eventually ended up taking the vaccine.

I have seen it.

Persuasion assist because some people are avoiding vaccination because of lack of information and knowledge.

As much as you give them knowledge and explain, they eventually take the vaccine.

I don’t think people should be forced to vaccinate outside their will.

Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, that concludes the reply to questions.

Thank you, Deputy President, much appreciated.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, that concludes the replies to questions.

Thank you Deputy President, much appreciated.

Hon members, the second item on the order paper is the statement UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 65 by the Minister of Finance on emergency interventions that will be taken by the National Treasury to mitigate the sharp increases of fuel prices.

I now recognise the hon Minister.


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, may I kindly check if the Minister is on the virtual platform, he was supposed to be here physically?

Can I quickly check?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, okay.

In the mean time we will call... Sesotho: ... ntate Godongwane, o hokae Morena?

Tloho o tlo bua le rona ntate.

English: He was given 5 o’clock?

Sorry, let’s try and get him out of wherever he is please.

Tell him you were so efficient today he can’t believe it.
Order hon members.

Hon members pardon me; I just want to correct something.

I made a mistake yesterday and I want to correct it today.

Please join me in wishing hon Judy UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 66 Tshabalala a happy belated birthday, and all of those whose birthday it is today and this week, happy birthday.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM & RURAL DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): Point of order Chair?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order?


THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM & RURAL DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): We are unprotected, there’s a member who’s not wearing a mask in the House.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please wear your mask.

No hon members, let the presiding officer do that.

You’ve raised it, please keep quiet and do what you’re supposed to do.

Thank you very much.

Hon member, we propose that we proceed.

Hopefully hon Magwanishe is around.

Yes, okay.


Sesotho: Ha ke o bone ntate.

English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 67 No wait a minute.

Follow the procedure, just wait for me.

I just wanted to make sure that you are around.

CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR PERMISSION IN TERMS OF RULE 286(4)(B) TO INQUIRE INTO EXTENDING THE SUBJECT OF CANNABIS FOR PRIVATE PURPOSES BILL Mr G MAGWANISHE: Thank you very much Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon members...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maotwe please put on your mask.

Mr G MAGWANISHE: Interim report on cannabis for Private Purposes Bill in the judgement, the Constitutional Court declared the following legislative provisions unconstitutional as they amount to an impermissible limitation of the rights to privacy.
They are section 4 (b)and section 5 (b)of the Drugs and Drugs Trafficking Act 140 of 1992 read with part three of Schedule 2 of that Act and section 22A (9) (a-i) of the Medicine and Related Substance Act read with Schedule 7 of the Government Notice R509 of 2003.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 68 The court suspended the order of invalidity for 24 months for Parliament to correct the unconstitutional defect.
Although the 24 months have been exceeded, there is no deb in law as the court provided a read in provision that ensures that an adult person will not be guilty of a criminal offence if they use, possess or cultivate cannabis for personal consumption in private.

On the 1st of September 2020, the Cannabis for Private Purposes Bill was introduced and referred to the committee for consideration and report.
The committee was briefed on the contents of the Bill on the 4th of September 2020 and the Bill was then published for public comments.

The committee was also briefed by the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and the Department of Trade and Industry and Competition on the drug cannabis master plan which contains a strategy to industrialise and commercialise cannabis.
The committee received 55 written submissions and held public hearings on the 31st of August 2021 and on the 1st and 2nd September 2021.

Flowing from the public submission and its UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 69 pursuant deliberations, the committee has identified certain subjects that the introduced Bill does not address.
Therefore, in terms of Rule 286(4) of the NA rules, the committee seeks the Assembly’s permission to extend the subject of the Bill to in addition to provide for commercial activities in respect of recreational cannabis; provide for cultivation, possession and supply of cannabis plant and cannabis by organisations for religious and cultural purposes on behalf of their members and respect the right to privacy of an adult person to use cannabis for palliation or medication.
I request that this report be considered by the House’s favouring.

Thank you.

QUESTION PUT Agreed to.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is the hon Minister present?

We return to the second item on the order paper which is the statement by the Minister Finance on emergency interventions.

IsiZulu: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 70 Manje usithatha kuphi isibindi sokukhuluma nje ungakhonjwanga?

[Ubuwelewele.]

Huh?

Wangixubha ngidla.


English That will be taken by the National Treasury to mitigate the sharp increases in fuel prices.

EMERGENCY INTERVENTIONS THAT WILL BE TAKEN BY NATIONAL TREASURY TO MITIGATE THE SHARP INCREASES IN FUEL PRICES (Statement by the Minister of Finance) The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, on 23 February this year, I tabled the 2022-23 Budget before this House.

In it, I announced that there would be no increases to the general fuel levy on petrol and diesel.
I also indicated that there would be no increase to the Road Accident Fund, RAF, levy for the 2022-23 fiscal year.

These measures were taken despite our constrained fiscal position.

Our aim, in particular, was to protect poor households – who spend the majority of their income on food and transport – against record-high increases in fuel prices.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 71 Our commitment in the 2022 Budget was to strike a delicate balance between keeping money in the pockets of our people, amid the economic shock of the COVID-19 pandemic, while at the same time striving to restore the health of our public finances.

By refraining from including an inflationary increase to the fuel levy and the Road Accident Fund levy, we managed to provide much-needed relief to South Africans, to the value of R3.5 billion.
In addition, I indicated at the time of the Budget that Minister Mantashe and I had agreed to review all aspects of the fuel price regulation.

Let me emphasise again that this was in recognition of the increasing cost of living for all South Africans, as well as the need to do what we can within our limited resources to support the economic recovery.

However, the day after I tabled the Budget, we woke up to the news of the escalation in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine.
The conflict will almost certainly intensify some of the risks we had already highlighted in the Budget Review 2022, specifically the risk of continued supply disruptions and higher inflation.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 72 A few weeks ago, during my address to this House, I spelled out some of these risks and the likely impact that the conflict may have on our economy and revenue proposals.
A big concern for the South African economy is imported inflation, especially the direct impact on fuel and food prices.

We are equally concerned about the secondary effects on the rest of the economy, and the overall impact on the local and global economic recovery that was beginning to take root.
While the most recent data released by Statistics SA showed a slight upside in the growth of gross domestic product when compared with National Treasury’s estimates for 2021, the growth outlook going forward is much less promising and subject to new, emerging risks.

Most notable of these risks is the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

In addition, the re-emergence of the COVID-19 virus in China, and the consequent lockdowns which are increasing constraints on global supply chains, are also of concern.
Since the start of the conflict, there has already been sharp increases in the prices of crude oil.

This has had a direct impact on fuel prices in our country.

In March of this year, the petrol price rose to R21,60 per litre for 95 unleaded UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 73 petrol in the inland region, while diesel prices rose to R19,55 per litre.
Of concern is that the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy has advised that fuel prices in April are likely to increase even further.

Hon members, to mitigate the impact of these escalating fuel prices, I hereby table the following proposal, which will be included in the 2022 Rates and Monetary Amount and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill, for consideration by this House: • A temporary reduction of the general fuel levy by R1,50 per litre, for the period 6 April 2022 to 31 May 2022.
This will reduce the levy for petrol from R3,85 per litre to R2,35 per litre.

The levy on diesel will be reduced from R3,70 per litre to R2,20 per litre.

These amounts exclude other levies such as the Road Accident Fund levy and the carbon fuel levy.

The intention of the temporary reduction of the general fuel levy is to support a phasing in the fuel price increases that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 74 we are expecting in the short term.
This will go some way towards assisting South Africans to adjust to the new reality.

The proposed reduction of the general fuel levy, for a period of two months, will not require adjustments to the annual national Budget, as the proposal is not expected to have an impact on the fiscal framework.

The proposed reduction of the general fuel levy will be funded by a liquidation of a portion of the strategic crude oil reserves.
In this instance, the revenue foregone by the reduction in the levies will be recouped through a sale of strategic crude oil reserves, which are held by the Strategic Fuel Fund, which is a subsidiary of the Central Energy Fund.

The sale would be required to raise around R6 billion.

The sale will be authorised by the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy, and the funds will be deposited into the Equalisation Fund at the Central Energy Fund.
The Minister of Finance and the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy have the authority to approve the release of funds from the Equalisation Fund into the National Revenue Fund in terms of the Central Energy Fund Act, Act No 38 of 1977.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 75 The fuel levy reduction will be temporary.

A broader package of relief measures will be explored, and they will come into effect after the expiry of the two-month fuel levy reduction.
In this regard, the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy proposes the following package of measures to be introduced after the expiry of the temporary measures, from Wednesday, 1 June 2022: • A reduction in the Basic Fuel Price of 3c per litre, in line with the recommendations of the review done by the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy.

• The termination of the Demand Side Management Levy of 10c per litre particularly in the Gauteng province.
• The introduction of a price cap on 93 octane petrol, following from the previous Department of Mineral Resources and Energy proposal and consultation.

This means that retailers can sell below the regulated prices.

• The termination of the practice of publishing guidance by the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy on diesel prices to promote greater competition.
• The Regulatory Accounting System, including the retail margin, wholesale margin and secondary storage and distribution margins will be reviewed to assess whether UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 76 adjustments can be made to lower the margins over the medium term.

Interventions will be considered by the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy to reduce the price pressure for illuminating paraffin over the medium term.
We are doing all of these things in line with our overall commitment to keeping money in the pockets of South Africans during these trying times, while at the same time restoring the health of our public finances.

Minister Mantashe and I have released a joint statement which provides further details on this matter.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

Dr D T GEORGE: Deputy Speaker, for a number of years the question hanging over our heads has been: What happens when government runs out of money?
Government doesn’t have any money of its own, it all belongs to the people, and year after year, Scopa hears how billions of rand have been irregularly spent, wastefully spent, or simply stolen.

And there is never any consequence.

Nobody is held to account and nobody goes to jail.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 77 Yesterday, the DA proposed a motion of no confidence in the President’s Cabinet ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

... precisely because our economy has been mismanaged to the point of collapse, where we are unable to attract investment capital because there is no confidence, unemployment levels hit a record 35% in the last quarter ...

[Interjections.]

Ms C V KING: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Ms C V KING: Please, can the heckling be limited to a hearable sound because we can’t hear.

It’s drowning the speaker at the podium.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Sustained.


Hon members, keep your voices low.

Dr D T GEORGE: ... and youth unemployment is at 65%.

Poverty continues to ruin the lives and future potential of more and more South Africans, every day.

We face a cost of living crisis with skyrocketing food prices driven largely, but not only by the upward spiral in the fuel price.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 78 The fuel price has been too high for too long because of government’s economic mismanagement.

And this has crowded out opportunities for economic growth that we will never get back again.

The fuel price consists of four elements: the basic fuel price; taxes and levies; retail and wholesale margins and storage and distribution costs.

The price of crude oil and the exchange rate impacts heavily on the price.
We don’t have much control over the price of crude oil although we certainly made an enormous mistake when the ANC- led government chose the side of Russia in its illegal war against Ukraine.

The war has impacted negatively on the price of crude oil and when countries such as South Africa do not add value in bringing the war to an end, we actually do pay the price of more expensive fuel.
The ANC-led government’s disgraceful behaviour at the United Nations just served to make life more difficult for everyone in South Africa and just served to drive more people into poverty.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 79 If government was actually concerned about the oil price and how it impacted on all South Africans, it would join the rest of the world in doing everything possible to stop the War.
Although the dollar-rand exchange rate is subject to market vagaries, it is possible to make our currency more attractive on the markets by ensuring that South Africa is an attractive investment destination.

In that way, foreign investors in particular would want to purchase rands for investment and increase its value.

The DA has previously called on government to reduce the fuel levy and that could result in a reduction in the petrol price in the region of 20%.
This would take pressure off rising food and transport prices and bring immediate relief to the poor.

The petrol price in South Africa is higher than it is in Swaziland, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania, Namibia and Kenya because the fuel levy in South Africa is too high.

It is too high because government relies heavily on it to fund its mismanagement of the public finances, at 6% of revenue.

Bad government is making all South Africans poorer.

Social grants are set to increase by 4,5% in April.
But electricity and fuel prices are set to go up by more than UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 80 double that in April.

Electricity prices by 9,6% and fuel prices by 11%.

Food prices have increased by 5,7% in the past year according to Stats SA and that will gather momentum this year.

Cutting the fuel levy will create fiscal pressure that can be alleviated in many ways.

The root cause of our dire fiscal situation is bad policy, incompetence and corruption.
[Interjections.]

There are much better ways to deal with these than taxing the poor.

South Africa can no longer delay tackling our problems at their root.

We need to grow tax revenue and jobs by rapidly reforming our economy to be open and competitive.

We need to make better use of tax revenue by appointing public officials on merit and jailing corrupt officials.

The benefits would accrue rapidly.


The Minister’s proposal to liquidate a portion of the strategic crude oil reserves for very short term relief is high risk and reckless.

The purpose of holding a reserve is to ensure that South Africa does not run out of fuel during an emergency situation that is not easy to foresee.
It was not long ago that an attempt was made to sell our strategic oil UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 81 reserves under the guise of a ‘stock rotation’ that was nothing more than a corrupt attempt to enrich a connected few.

We need far more detail on what this transaction would entail and how the reserves will be replenished, and at what price.
If we are to take a short-term view, and not make the structural reforms that would eliminate or reduce the high fuel tax, then we should look at funding this short-term intervention with additional revenue that will be received as a result of the uptick in commodity prices that will temporarily increase tax revenue.

We do have that temporary fiscal space.

We welcomed President Ramaphosa’s acknowledgement in his state of the nation address that business must be the job creator in South Africa.
The incapable state is certainly unable to do that.

We welcomed the Minister’s statements at his budget speech of what he intends to do about the state-owned enterprises and managing the public sector wage bill.

Structural reform is the only way to grow our economy and avoid the significant risks that the Minister is now incurring.

We are all agreed that the fuel price is too high and that immediate relief is needed.

We just differ on how.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 82 We support the suspension of the general fuel levy.

Selling the strategic reserves is a desperate move for a government that has run out of ideas.

It is possible to reduce the fuel tax immediately without selling our reserves, it just requires political will to do what will need to be done anyway.

We all know what happens when government runs out of money – it is forced to change its behaviour.
If not, the people will remove you.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, no.

Sesotho: Hela, butleng pele ke a le kopa hle!

Tjhe, tjhe, wena o tlo se rwala semonkolo.

[Ditsheho.]

Tswela pele, mme.


English: Ms O M C MAOTWE: Deputy Speaker, besides the sale of strategic crude oil reserves, as the EFF, we are even more shocked that we are called here to listen to what was supposed to be an intervention and yet, all we’ve heard was nothing but UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 83 ambiguities and insinuations besides the obvious.

The sale of strategic crude oil reserves is indeed for emergencies.
The miscalculation by the Minister of Finance also shows that there is a general misunderstanding of the economic challenges facing workers and the poor.

This is because of Mr Cyril Ramaphosa and the collective incompetent Cabinet who continue to mismanage the economy of this country.

The reality is that the sale of strategic crude oil reserves must not excite because we are led by people who always see crisis and pain of our people as a way to loot.
The first thing they ask themselves is: How are we going to eat instead of how are we going to help our people?

The price of petrol has drastically gone up since Mr Ramaphosa became President and the truth is that it has started well before Russia’s military operations in Ukraine.

But it is not only the price of petrol that has gone up.

Everything essential and necessary for survival is now more expensive than it was before Mr Ramaphosa as the President.

His new dawn is a new dawn of high petrol prices.


A new dawn of higher electricity prices.

A new dawn of higher food UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 84 prices.

A new dawn of higher transportation prices.

When Mr Ramaphosa was elected President in February 2018, a litre of petrol was only R14.

Today, as we stand here, Deputy Speaker, a litre of petrol is now nearing a record of R22 per litre.

In 2018, a household needed just over R2 000 to afford a food basket.
Today, the amount of money a household needs to afford decent food has nearly doubled to more than R4 000.

Because of the corruption and incompetence of the ruling party which allowed the thievery of railway tracks and brought the railway system to its knees, workers spend more on public transport than they should.

The consequences of the failed new dawn.

When you increase the price of petrol, the price of everything that has to do with transportation also increases.
The whole crisis is made worse by the theft of 10 million barrels of the country’s strategic oil reserves that were stolen in 2015 for way less than the going market rate through schemes of corruption.

More than six years later, Deputy Speaker, no one has been held accountable.

The then Minister Tina Joemat- Pettersson has instead been rewarded.

Now, what is to be done?


Firstly, any effort to revive South Africa’s petrol structure and interventions to lower the price UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 85 of petrol cannot be done by the Treasury, Minister of Finance.

It requires an independent and objective body that is not obsessed with austerity and zigzagging neoliberal policies even when evidence shows failures.
An institution such as Stats SA will be best placed to carry out this task and it must be linked with reviewing the whole Cataloguing in Publication, CIP data.

This is why we cannot continue to defund credible and independent institutions that should conduct empirical data collection and analysis to inform policy decision-making and rely on the Reserve Bank that is also obsessed with neoliberal zigzagging.
Secondly, Deputy Speaker, we need to finalise the prosecution of criminals who stole the oil from the strategic fuel fund and reserve the transaction to get our oil back.

It looks like the people responsible for prosecution on this matter are also receiving cash to stall the matter.

Thirdly, we must develop a South Africa’s fuel sovereignty plan that will interconnect research and exploration into sources of fuel owned by the state beneficiation and industrial policy.
It was done with Sasol and it can be done again.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 86 Lastly, Deputy Speaker, we must do away with all the legislation that is chipping away at the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act that has laid a strong foundation for the transfer of ownership to black people, if it implemented properly and beneficiation is done properly.

Mr A H M PAPO: Point of order.


Ms O M C MAOTWE: We know that the only reason why the Gas Amendment Bill and ...

[Interjections.]

...

I was waiting for the Deputy Speaker.

Can you chill?

Mr A H M PAPO: Deputy Speaker, you have made a ruling in the past that members of this House must not cast aspersions on public servants who are not part of this House and are unable to respond for themselves.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The member just said those who are supposed to prosecute on this matter of the sale are actually given money to stall.

[Interjections.]

And we know that the NPA is responsible for prosecuting people.

[Interjections.]

The member has just cast aspersions on the NPA that they are actually given money to stall the prosecution.

The member is not actually bringing a substantive motion ...

[Interjections.]

... and the public servants ...

[Interjections.]

... will not be.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 87 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we will rule on this.

Proceed.

Yes, we’ll rule on this.

We want to do a considered ruling on the matter.

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Chief, I’m dealing with matters of national importance.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maotwe.

Ms O M C MAOTWE: I’m giving direction to this country which is directionless.
Deputy Speaker, we know that the only reason for the Gas Amendment Bill and the Upstream Petroleum Resources Development Bill are to make it easy for Total in Mossel Bay and Shell in the Karoo to loot our resources unabated.

If we don’t see a drop in the price of petrol immediately, Deputy Speaker, this country will face a revolt like it has never seen before.

Thank you very much.

Papo, you must behave.

[Applause.]

Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, hon members, and Minister, ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, no, you can’t do that!

No, no, no!

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 88 Mr N SINGH: Whilst any measure to reduce the impact of increasing fuel price is welcome.

Many in this House - political parties - and outside of this House, have been making some calls.

I think there needs to be clarity, hon Minister, on what you just said from the podium.
When I read the draft statement, I understand that it was a draft statement that was circulated as Chief Whip’s – it doesn’t make mention of the R1,50.

What I am trying to understand for South Africans is, on 6 April, when there is a price adjustment to fuel – we know it happens on the first Wednesday of every month: What would the next impact be on the persons who are filling up fuel?

Because, yes, R1,50 would be deducted from the fuel levy.
Yet, there are going to be things beyond your control and our control, which is a price of crude oil at that time – which in turn is also going to be in the rand-dollar exchange.

So, the net in fact may be on 6 April that instead of somebody paying R21,50, which would have been the price, you will pay R20,00.

However, it could have increased from what it was.

So, Minister, can you please explain so that South Africans know: What is going to happen to them on 6 April 2022?
Also, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 89 hon Minster, we know that it is largely what happened in Ukraine, between Ukraine and Russia, that has cause this increase in price.

We know it is Covid-19 which caused this.

Whatever you want to call it, you can call it!

I am speaking now!

But, what we have done is that we have indeed found the seed of a hidden opportunity in this adversity, and there is always hope that we can find the seed.
However, having said that, hon Chairperson, hon Minister, you mentioned the Road Accident Fund, and the fact that you did not announce increases to the RAF levy.

Well, that may be well and good, but I think it is well known if one reads the media – I attended the meeting of the Standing Committee on Auditor- General, last week: That the Road Accident Fund has taken the Auditor-General to court because they don’t like the opinion that the Auditor-General has expressed on the financial accounting.
The reason for that is that the Road Accident Fund wants to introduce its own accounting principles which are against what is the normal generally accepted accounting principles, GAAP.

Now, that is not acceptable!

They want to hide almost R300 billion in a contingent liability, by saying there is only R27 billion on liability.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 90 Hon Minister, you have got to look at this and have got to look at the fact that an Accountant-General has got to be appointed urgently, and that you should intervene, together with the Auditor-General, in this matter, because we cannot allow the RAF to do things that they want to do on their own against our principles.
The other issue, hon Minister, in looking at the 1 June 2022 proposal, I hope that the public will be allowed to make some input, because at some stage, many years ago, all public transport operators – buses and taxi operators – were given an opportunity for a rebate on fuel.

I remember it very clearly because I come from that industry.
We need to introduce that rebate on fuel for those who provide public transport so that taxi owners and bus owners would reduce their fares, and that would help the public out there.

Lastly, hon Deputy Speaker and Minister, the Fuel Retailers’ Association has been making submissions – a number of submission - on margins.

I hope that these will be taken very seriously by yourself and the Minister of Minerals and Energy as you move forward towards your 1 June proposals.
For now, we UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 91 welcome any relief, but it should not be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Time expired.]

Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.

Dr W J BOSHOFF: Hon Deputy Chair, everybody knows that South African fuel is highly taxed.

That is why petrol manufactured in South Africa or even imported through our ports is more expensive than the same fuel in neighbouring countries.
It is easy to tax fuel, as people and businesses rather save on other expenses than substantially cutting on fuel.

Untaxed petrol is harder to find than, let's say, untaxed cigarettes.

The tax is also easy to administer, as there are a small number of figurative turnpikes where all fuel has to flow through and where tax can be collected.

However, this taxation of fuel is contentious.

It is not progressive, meaning the burden rests equally on rich and poor, if not heavier on the poor.
It also inhibits economic growth, as it is detrimental to the competitiveness of South African businesses.

The FF-Plus, among others, has urged the government to revisit the price structure of liquid fuels in South Africa.

Not only the taxes, but also the fact that prices are calculated as if UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 92 all fuel is imported in its final form - which is clearly not the case, and exaggerates the influence of foreign exchange volatility.
We should keep in mind that the most important reason for rising fuel prices over the past two decades is not changes in the price of crude oil, but depreciation of the rand.

The rand depreciates, because more people want to sell rands, than buy rands.

When the economy is not regarded as a bread of fixed size which should be redistributed, but as one which can feed everyone if it is allowed to grow, the rand will be able to buy more barrels of oil.
Unfortunately, currently, the economy is managed to be uncompetitive.

Today, the Ministers of Energy and Finance announced a partial tax vacation for two months, during which time the whole structure will be rethought.

This is to be welcomed and hopefully the new structure will be an improvement.

There are indeed several potential problems in the whole fuel industry.

The country's refineries, except that of Sasol, are senior citizens.
Those which have not burnt down or been shut down, are about to be shut down.

There might be a temptation UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 93 to charge a new levy to finance the building of a new refinery.

During the current transport transition to electric and even hydrogen powered transport, this might not be a good long-term investment of public money.

To sell a part of the strategic reserve, is indeed a risky venture.
It is literally like having a dam to be used during droughts, but one never knows whether one is at the end of a short drought, or at the beginning of a protracted one.

In other words, we may expect that the war in Eastern Europe will not amount to permanent fuel deficits.

But, the structural changes in transport, favouring renewable energy sources over fossil fuels is less immediate, but can be expected to be permanent.
Nevertheless, the expression urges us never to let a good crisis go wasted, and we should acknowledge that government heeded this advice.

I thank you!

Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP welcomes today’s joint statement about the temporary reduction in the general fuel levies, pending a package of additional measures from 1 June 20222.

We welcome the fact of the reduction of R1,50, hon Minister.

It is not an insignificant amount.


When one UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 94 considers that escalating fuel prices have put considerable pressure on the cost of transport, food and other goods and services.

The consumers are suffering due to these increases, as well as possible electricity and interest increases.

This announcement should be welcomed.


The ACDP raised this issue with both President Ramaphosa and you as well, Minister of Finance, during the question time.

It is important to note that since 2012, taxes in relation to levies on the fuel have on average more than doubled, as the share of the fuel price.

They account for 34% of the fuel price.


A search on the fuel price regulations have indicated that a combination of regulatory amendments can reduce the fuel price significantly, and that we trust is what would occur when one looks at the additional package of measures.

When one also considers the amendments to the international component of the basic fuel price, which were proposed in 2018 by the Department of Mineral Resources, but sadly never implemented.

It is also to be commended.


Minister, if I understood your statement correctly: That is now to be implemented; and that is also to be supported.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 95 Whilst one supports these aspects, I think the issue of concern relates to: The funding of the R6 billion that is required; of course, how much are the strategic oil reserve is to be sold; at what price; and what risk does that bring?
Is this possibly a case of selling part of the family silver to deal with an interim issue?

I appreciate, hon Minister, you mentioned the fiscal framework and that one can’t touch that.

However, as we suggested in the past, is it not possible to consider the expected commodity price tax windfall that is already pencilled in that R71 billion, and which is expected to be far more?

Would that not be a wise aspect as well to look at?
While we appreciate the reduction, from the ACDP’s perspective, I do believe that Parliament will look very carefully at the sale of the portion of the oil reserves and whether this introduces any risk, given the fact that we do not have refined oil reserves.

So, let us exercise our oversight from our perspective, but thank you, hon Minister, for this welcomed announcement.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 96 IsiXhosa: ... andisayi kuva ngani ukuba mandithethe isiNgesi kuba andivotelwa nini.

English: Indeed, the war between Russia and Ukraine has placed pressure on the domestic fuel prices.

Naturally this conflict has caused surprised shock to the global economy and we are not immune to that.
Minister, you have become in the short space of time the father Christmas probably because ... IsiXhosa: ... unxityiswa kudadewethu uMamTshawe.

English: I think you must take credit for that.

The decision to temporarily reduce the general fuel levy by R1,50 cents is indeed welcome as it is going to provide the South African motorists and the economy in general with the much needed relief at this very important period.
We also agree with you when you saying that; time need to be set aside to actually have a discussion about the comprehensive vast measures that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 97 can be introduced to try and make sure that we provide further cushions to the South African economy and ordinary people.

You will recall that one of the issues that we actually advocated for here, very passionately, is the issue of value added tax.
We do not agree with you when you say that if you were to reduce 1% the fiscus will lose about R30 billion but you are not able to tell us as to how much revenue we are going to lose by reducing corporate income tax from 28% to 27% and what the effect of previous increases were on the South African economy.

That empirical study is required, Mr Minister.

But I think the other issue in broad terms is that we continue to provide cushions to South African economy but businesses don’t fall in line.
For example, we also run the risk where price increases you made at the beginning of the year, people might not actually reduce their prices even though we are trying to mitigate that effect on the South African economy.

I am talking about the cost of transport, for example, you know people had already increased prices.
One of the things that the Competition Commission, for example, did during Covid they were vigilant around people who UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 98 were inflating prices unnecessarily.

I think we need to be vigilant even during these periods so that we don’t provide a cushion for the public but it doesn’t reach the public, the intended beneficiaries, it actually ends up with people making more money.
The other issue is that we continue to do these things, we gave people loan guarantees schemes.

For example, extended loans to the public sector but the unemployment rate did not improve even after people got bailouts from us.

It’s a problem in general.

Even with the R32,8 billion that we gave to companies which was a bailout during the social unrest in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng, did they make sure that our people didn’t lose jobs after we spent taxpayer’s money during those days?
So, we need to access the effectiveness of the measures that we put in place.

We are obviously concern about the sale of strategic socioeconomic ... IsiXhosa: USEKELA SOMLOMO: Liphelile ixesha.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 99 Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Kutheni, kodwa ibonakalisa imizuzu emine nje?

Kwekhu, hayi madoda.

USEKELA SOMLOMO: Ye madoda, awusakwazi ukufunda ngoku?

Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Andisakwazi ukufunda?

[Kwahlekwa.]

Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


Deputy Speaker, the skyrocketing fuel prices in South Africa are driving inflation, high cost-of-living and strangling the economic growth.

The direct fuel consumers and those who do not purchase retail fuel are under enormous pressure as the rapidly increase in the cost of fuel is increasing the cost of commuting, increasing the cost of food and driving inflation.
And of course, inflation has managed by raising interest rates, adding additional burdens to those who have loans, bonds and other debt.

Regulation of the fuel price has a long history in South Africa and these regulatory powers should be used to be rapidly responsive to local and international market dynamics.
So, it is appropriate that the Minister has intervened to release this pressure valve and the temporary relief is a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 100 welcome intervention.

We welcome every cent that can be saved at the fuel pump.

But what we need is a sustainable solution which doesn’t require us to fill up our tanks every week.

It will be much better if we could safe households hundreds of rand a week by building a functioning public transport network.
Deputy Speaker, the composition of the fuel price at the pump requires a fundamental overhaul so that the cost of fuel is not another factor holding back economic growth and generating jobs for all South Africans.

And our government must use its powers to restructure the regulated components being the margins and the taxes and the levies.
So, in this regard, we welcome the announcement that the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy will be bringing substantial changes to the composition and structure of the fuel price.

The propose reduction of the basic fuel levy by three cents a litre and the termination of the 10 cents per litre Demand Side Management Levy (DSML) are also welcome steps towards this restructuring.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 101 The propose removal of the price cap and the move to a competitive retail fuel pricing regime will be a significant shift.

Deputy Speaker, South Africa’s 15-million-barrels of strategic oil reserves are meant to safeguard us from an energy crisis and to protect our economy.
So, leveraging these oil reserves to provide temporary relief does create some serious risk of devastating consequences if the disposal of these reserves are not reversed by a highly discipline replenishment programme that is actually implemented.

So finally, Deputy Speaker, we welcome the relief been offered to South African consumers and economy and we call on our government to rapidly pursue the restructuring of the regulatory component of the fuel price.
And the role of the increase in South Africa refinement of crude oil should also be part of the restructuring process since local refinery has the opportunity to create downstream job opportunities.

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Herron.
Hon members, I just wish to read you a Rule – at every beginning of the sitting, the serving officer who start the proceedings UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 102 make reference to safety in the House and makes that request for us to also keep our masks on and sit in our allocated places for purposes of that safety.
Here is the Rule 71, if the presiding officer is of the opinion that a member is deliberately contravening a provision of these Rules or that a member is disregarding the authority of the Chair or that a member’s conduct is grossly disorderly, she or he may order the member to leave the Chamber immediately for the remainder of the day’s sitting.

I am reading this Rule so that we don’t have to go back to reading it.

Thank you very much.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


Deputy Speaker and through you Minister, let me tell you about the reality on the ground.

The latest report - electricity cost is going up by 9,5%, water by 6,5%, sanitation by 6,5%, refuse by 5% and property rates by 5,2%.

There is collusion between the big five supermarkets in the country and you will find that the price of foodstuff has been rocketed.

The cost on air fares have increased.


Now whilst we welcome the relief that you are talking about, I think what is important to note is that the Road Accident Fund is not an asset, it is actually a liability.

Maybe it’s time to dispose of this function.

Let it be handled by the private UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 103 sector and it includes some kind of insurance through the licensing and that will go a long way.
Deputy Speaker, we are losing this country approximately R300 billion.

Let me say it again, R300 billion and very little or nothing has been done to put measures in place to try and prevent this.

And I still cannot understand why we are allowing it to go on.

Now, one of my concerns is that Minister as you rightfully alluded to the fact that there will be a disruption in the continued supply of crude oil.
Now if you dispose of some of this crude oil and the disruption continues, then what is the risks to us here if we do not get adequate supply of crude oil in the country.

Added to that Minister, there is another problem.

Many of these fuel companies are leaving South Africa for the neighbouring countries, which means lots of jobs are going to be lost.

But more importantly, it means that we are going to be importing more fuel and that is going to push up the cost once again.
But what is not clear here, Deputy Speaker, through you, is the relief that we are going to get from 6 April, is that relief after the increase that might be coming on 6 April or UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 104 is that relief of R1,50 cents from the current price that is going to come into effect on 6 April, because we know that the first Wednesday of each month is when we adjust the pricing.

So, that’s what we need to know.


I just want to repeat this particular one, Deputy Speaker, 14 children died of malnutrition in Nelson Mandela Bay, 216 suffered from severe acute malnutrition, 16 000 were left without aid.

So, the problem is a lot bigger than what we are talking about, Minister.

We need to look at putting in measures.

We have a more productive society, create more jobs ... [Time expired.]
Mr S LUZIPO: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members and everyone who is with us today.

Firstly, thank you Madiba.

You understood the challenge that we are faced with as a nation.

Over the past two years or so, our country has witnessed an exponential increase in fuel prices.

It’s not new.

It didn’t start yesterday.

Notwithstanding all these factors, the high price of crude oil has been one of the reasons behind the high fuel prices.
Since the beginning of this year, this has been one of the tasks that we in the committee have been seized UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 105 with.

What complicated matters was the conflict between Russia and the Ukraine, which imposes external factors on the challenges that we have inherently been confronted with.

Therefore, countries all over the world have started to introduce mitigating measures against the fuel prices.
It is not only unique to the South African context.

Among some of these countries is South Korea which introduced a 20% cut in the fuel tax as early as November 2021 which was extended to March 2022.

Poland introduced a fuel tax cut to 8% from 23%.

Vietnam ... 50% cut on the environmental levy.

Therefore, it is not something that is unique.

We are doing exactly what other countries resort to when confronted by challenges, which is to protect the interest of the nation.
As the Portfolio Committee on Mineral Resources, we have been very concerned about the knock-on effects on South African citizens, both rich and poor.

We will deal with the issue of ... because some people must go for dialectical lessons to understand that at times the relationship between the poor and the rich does exist.

It is antagonistic but at the same time it can be co-operative.

But obviously, if you commit class collaboration you will never understand some of these issues.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 106 In its engagement, the committee has looked at what the mitigating measures that could be taken into consideration are.

We have had engagements with stakeholders.

Firstly, with the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, as well as the Automobile Association.
Recently, we had an engagement with all the role-players and organisations in the petroleum industry, including National Treasury, as well as the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, which has been doing research on these matters.

There are two energy sources, which I think the hon Minister talked to, and I don’t think there is contestation.
I think we must welcome the issue of a levy reprieve as far as liquid fuel, gas as well as ... which ... We think it is important to take consideration of VAT as far as illuminating paraffin is concerned.

Very quickly, I think we must even welcome the reduction in the general levy.

Whether it is calculated differently, it will make a difference.

Hon Minister, the issue that we think we must have a discussion on is the issue of the Road Accident Fund, RAF.
As a committee, we are of the view that it does not necessarily have to be removed as part of the tax regime but with new developments in technology it might be dislocated in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 107 the area where it currently is.
For example, if you agree today that you have electronic vehicles but they are not affected as far as the RAF is concerned ... but for an individual who just owns a generator ... will be affected by a deduction on the basis of the RAF but ... can’t claim if there is an incident based on issues of liquid paraffin or the generator.
Those are the things that we think we need to zoom in on, without saying ... It’s a different story for someone who goes to a bowser and puts a car ... and puts fuel ... and sees the difference of less than R2,18 on a 50 litre diesel ... That individual will see a difference, in as much as it might be cushioned somewhere else.

So, those are the things that we think a constructive engagement must be able to look at ... better solutions that must be found.
As I said, we most definitely welcome the reduction as far as the general fuel levy is concerned.

However, let me quickly address a certain matter here.

Not every revolutionary phrase is revolutionary.

The first thing I think we must address ... you can’t take ... and there is no doubt in South Africa ... We should not hide that one.

Part of our problem is that we have to deal with the issue of consequence management in the Public Service.

There is no doubt about it.


However, you cannot even ... How do you take UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 108 someone when you have not done what you are supposed to do?

You first win the case.

What is not reported here is that the sale of the strategic stock went to court.

Government won the case.

The strategic stock is back where it belongs.

That is where the stock is.

Then you can start to ask the question, when was that case won?
It was only around April/May last year.

There was an issue about the hedging fees which was a dispute between government and those who bought it.

You can only then start prosecution, based on that because there is evidence on your side.

Even if it is not done by the executive, we are Members of Parliament.

We must make it a point that those who are responsible for the illegal sale of the strategic stock face the full might of the law.

We can’t abdicate our responsibility and give it to the executive.
It’s our duty as Members of Parliament to hold that executive to account.

Now, one issue I want to say ... that issue that I want to say ...

Sometimes I listen to members.

I listen to members.

There is something ... some ... they call themselves Fanonists.

This is what Frantz Fanon says: “There are too many idiots in this world.
And having said it, I have the burden of proving it.” UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 109 Now, if you understand that inherently the mere fact that you are a motive force for change actually means that you’re a motive force against another resisting force.

We are not in a ...

[Inaudible.]


Now those who have the luxury of time ... We have a duty not just to interpret the world but to change it and that’s precisely ... that you don’t change the world under conditions of your own choice.

You change the conditions of our people on the basis of the inherent suffering that they have been put under for so many years.

With those words, thank you very much, hon Minister.

You are on the correct path and we think this is what South Africa wants.
All patriots will appreciate ... there is a difference between an intervention and an absolute work that is performed.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and thanks to the hon members for their contributions by.

Let me just start with hon Singh.

I think on the 6 April the price of petrol will increase to R3,85.

It will increase to R3,85.

[Interjections.]

No, wait.

Wait.

The hon member wants to know what he is going to be paying on that day.
That’s what the price will be.

However, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 110 with this R1,50 intervention you will pay R2,35 on 6 April.

[Interjections.]

Huh?

{Interjections.]

No, no, no, I’m saying that of the R3,85 you will get a reprieve of R1,50.

Less R1,50 of that increase, okay?

That’s the first thing I want to say.

The second thing I want to say is the following.


In so far as the RAF is concerned, let me state clearly that to my knowledge, as far as National Treasury ... they are on the same side in terms of the interpretation with the Auditor- General.

I just want to make that clear.

In terms of the audit outcomes.

They disagree with the system used by the RAF.

That is as far as I know.


The second thing we need to talk about ... which we need to come back ... I’m in a discussion with my colleagues, the Minister of Social Development and others, to restate the debate about a comprehensive social security system.

What are the key elements of such a system?

First is social insurance.

We have a whole range of social insurance packages all over the place, whether it is the unemployment fund, whether it is the RAF, whether it’s anything else.
We are putting in another social insurance in the form of the National Health Insurance, NHI, and all of those things.

We need to look at that.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 111 The second component is social assistance, which the Minister is seized with.

The third component of ...

[Inaudible.]

... is active labour market policies.

So the RAF’s future must be located within that debate, and that debate may mean that it may not ... necessary ... its funding be ...
[Inaudible.]

... the fuel fund ... with the fuel price.

Alright?

It may mean that, as part of that debate.

The third issue I want to raise ... when we discuss matters of national interest and national importance, I think we need to raise the level of debate.

We need to raise the level of debate.

Let me just say ... my own personal view ... all of these ...

[Inaudible.]

... on this side, I don’t regard you as enemies.


I regard you as fellow South Africans, but political opponents with different viewpoints to mine.

But, fellow South Africans and patriots like me, okay?

However, when we discuss a matter of national interest, it is important that we rise to a different level of debate.

Alright?

Let me just give an example.

Let me just give an example.

... an hon member to say ... South Africans are watching on TV.

We display our own ignorance.


South Africans are watching on TV.

You say, since Ramaphosa took over ... Then, as if the price of fuel ... You display your own ignorance, because you do not UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 112 understand what the economic drivers behind the increase of petrol are.

[Inaudible.]

... we expect a certain modicum of respect for Members of Parliament and a certain level of debate because we should know what the economic drivers behind this are.
It’s not an individual ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: 0rder, hon members!

Hon members!

Hon members, listen!

Hon members, listen to the reply.

You were given an opportunity to speak.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: So, my appeal ... Coming to the hon members of the UDM and the ACDP.

These members are making a number of contributions.

They say they have research.

We would welcome ideas on these matters.

No-one has the monopoly of knowledge.


Hon member from the UDM says that we need some empirical evidence.

We would like to engage with that.

The ACDP said they have some research.

By all means.

We don’t claim to have the monopoly of knowledge but let’s raise the level of debate.

Let’s raise the level of debate so that all of us engage constructively about reaching national consensus on issues of national importance.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I am raising these issues because we are facing enormous challenges, and those challenges require that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 113 we rise to the occasion and come up with important answers.

That is the challenge to the hon members on this side of the ... on my side.

We would welcome ideas.

[Interjections.]

So with those few ideas I just want to thank you for your contribution, but for God’s sake ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members?


Hon members?

Sorry, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: But for God’s sake let’s raise ... We would like constructive ideas ... like constructive ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister?

Hon Minister, just one second.

Hon members ...

[Interjections.]

... what you are doing is not appropriate.

The Minister is replying to a debate.

All of us in the House want to hear it.

You are preventing us from hearing the debate.


And we have protected you from the same thing by members in the House.

You are repeating that.

We request you not to do that.

[Interjections.]

It’s clearly disruptive.

You can’t all be screaming ... almost all of you.

[Interjections.]

You can’t do what you are doing.

It’s out of order.

[Interjections.]

Go ahead, hon Minister.

What are you rising on, hon member?


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 114 The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Budgeting is about making strategic choices.

Ms O M C MAOTWE: I’m rising on a point of order, Deputy Speaker.

Minister, I have asked to speak.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: It’s about making strategic ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sorry.

Hon Minister?

Hon Minister ...

[Inaudible.]

Ms O M C MAOTWE: The Deputy Speaker has recognised me to speak.

You can say ...

[Inaudible.]


... however you want!

The Deputy Speaker has agreed that I speak.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, speak to me!

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Okay.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Tell your members to shut up!

[Interjections.]

Hon members?

Hon members?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 115 Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: EFF, you are out of order!

EFF, you are out of order!

[Interjections.]

No, you are out of order, people of the EFF!


You can’t be insulting our leaders.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you can’t be screaming.

Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: You can’t be insulting our leaders!

You can’t!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I gave one member a chance to speak.

You speak ...

[Interjections.]

Mr X N MSIMANGO: Those ... must shut up!

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you can’t be screaming.
Ms P P MAKHUBELE-MARILELE: And you also can’t be insulting our leaders, you people of the EFF.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ... Hon Minister, let’s proceed.

Ms N V MENTE: Yes, you can’t tell us to shut up.

You must withdraw it.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 116 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let’s proceed, hon member.

Ms N V MENTE: We are not your children here.

[Interjections.]

You are not going to come here and be emotional.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let’s proceed.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker, what we must try to do ... Ms O M C MAOTWE: I have not spoken, Deputy Speaker.

You recognised me.

I have not spoken.

Deputy Speaker, you recognised me.

I have not spoken.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon member?

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Firstly, you must withdraw saying shut up.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what are you rising on?
Ms O M C MAOTWE: We are going to write a letter to your superior to complain but I’m rising to say to the Minister, it’s a fact that when Ramaphosa took office ...

[Inaudible.]

... the petrol price was R14,00.

{Inaudible.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 117 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that’s not a point of order.

That’s not a point of order.

[Interjections.]

Mr X N MSIMANGO: No, she must sit down ... that member.

That is not a point of order.


She must sit down.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that’s not a point of order.

[Inaudible.]

... you forget it.

That’s not a point of order.

Go ahead, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker ... Ms E N NTLANGWINI: It is a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What Rule ...

{Inaudible.]

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.

No, don’t worry, you will make your flight.

Just hold on.

On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

What’s your point of order?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 118 Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Deputy Speaker, you will recall that you told us to shut up ... to everyone here in this House.

That is unparliamentary.

We are going to take you to the Rules Committee because that can’t happen.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay.

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: That can’t happen.

You can’t tell Members of Parliament to shut up.


You yourself, as a Deputy Speaker, must adhere to the Rules and keep yourself ... Be patient with members.

Stop this hotness.

We know that you are rushing for your flights.

You will get it, man.

Don’t worry.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member?

Hon member, speak for yourselves.

Hon members, let’s proceed.

Mr B S YABO: Oh, but it can’t be masters of insults here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please proceed.

We have listened to you.


We now wish to proceed.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Deputy Speaker, as I conclude, the point I was raising is ...

[Inaudible.]

... important in matters of national importance that we try to win each other’s UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 31 MARCH 2022 Page: 119 arguments through cogent arguments.

I then said that some members have made suggestions through empirical evidence and some research.
I am saying we would welcome that because we don’t claim to have the monopoly on wisdom.

We don’t claim to have the monopoly on wisdom.

However, as I conclude, part of what we must ... and I said some of the things have risks.

When you take a decision it’s got risks and rewards.

We are taking that.

A budget is also about trade-offs.

While I would also like to take the fuel levy out as much as I can, that is going to require a phasing out.

It can’t be on and on.


As it stands, the fuel levy provides us with R90 billion of the total Budget.

To simply take R9 billion off the system ... the first target will be those programmes that are servicing the poor, when the poor are actually in need of support in these trying times.

Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 17:24.