Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698940969570.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 1 WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES ____ The Council met at 10:10.

The House Chairperson: International Relations and Members Support took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be notices of motion or motions without notice.

Hon members, the Secretary will read the First Order of the day.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND MINERAL RESOURCES - PROCEDURE FOR MAKING REGULATIONS: CONSULTATIONS IN TERMS OF SECTION 47(2) OF THE NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT ACT, 1998 (ACT NO 107 OF 1998): REGULATIONS LAYING DOWN THE PROCEDURE TO BE FOLLOWED FOR THE ADOPTION OF SPATIAL TOOLS AND ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT INSTRUMENTS, DATED 20 NOVEMBER 2018 UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 2 Mr O J SEFAKO: Thank you very much, hon Chair, once more for the opportunity to present the Report of the Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources on the Procedure for Making Regulations: Consultations in terms of section 47(2) of the National Environmental Management Act, 1998, Act No 107 of 1998: Regulations laying down the procedure to be followed for the adoption of Spatial Tools and Environmental Management Instruments, dated 20 November 2018.
The Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources, having considered the regulations laying down procedures to be followed for the adoption of Spatial Tools and Environmental Management Instruments in terms of section 47(2) of the National Environmental Management Act, Act No 107 of 1998, referred to it on 30 June 2018, reports that the committee has concluded its deliberations thereon.

I will therefore request that this august House to consider this tabled Report.

I thank you very much, hon Chair.


[Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 3 Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT CONSTITUTIONAL REVIEW COMMITTEE - POSSIBLE REVIEW OF SECTION 25 OF THE CONSTITUTION, DATED 15 NOVEMBER 2018 Declarations of votes made on behalf of Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal, Gauteng, Free State, North West, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Eastern Cape and Western Cape.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order!

Order, hon members!

Order!

Hon members!

Hon Mokwele!

Okay, hon Mokwele, time for celebration will come at the end.

Over to you, hon Nzimande.
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chairperson, Deputy Minister, members of the National Council of Provinces and fellow South Africans, I rise to table a Joint Constitutional Review Report which culminates from the execution of the resolution of this House and the National Assembly instructing the Constitutional Review Committee, CRC, to embark on a process of engaging and consulting the South Africans to elicit their views on the possible review of section 25 of the Constitution and other clauses where necessary and propose mechanisms for UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 4 possible amendment to the Constitution to allow the state to expropriate land in the public interest without compensation.
Therefore, in this regard the CRC developed a programme that included, amongst others, a facilitation of public involvement and participation in terms of section 159(1)(a) and 72(1)(a) of the Constitution.

This process of pubic engagement assisted the Joint Constitutional Review to execute its mandate that is contained in the joint rules and this mandate is instructing the Joint Constitutional Review to determine desirability on the amendment of the Constitution as and when is brought before it.
Today is a landmark report unprecedented in the sense that it points to a critical clause in the Constitution section 25 as a section that must be considered and be reviewed.

The report that we are tabling contains all the activities and processes the committee undertook since March up till today.

We will then scourge a few of this as an outline in the report.

The report was publicised and is before this House so I’m not going to read it.
Suffice to say that the committee in view of the enormity of the matter of land we had to appraise ourselves with the entire land question given the fact that we are not a Select Committee on Land we are not ceased with the land question per se.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 5 Therefore, the committee decided in its programme to include a colloquium and it had various stakeholders to help the committee to be in well informed on the matters of land and the state of affairs of the land question in South Africa.

The colloquium was held and the constitutional review ably assisted by various sectors including the agricultural sector, civil society organisations academic, legal experts and all of them.
It is worth noting that in the report of the colloquium and the presentations none of them said that it was wrong to amend section 25 of the Constitution to allow for expropriation of land without compensation – none of them.

After that the committee developed a programme of engagement with a public in terms of the section that I quoted above and the programme entailed travelling throughout South Africa, 33 provincial hearings were held.
We are indebted to the public who came in numbers to present their views before the committee, to participate effectively in influencing the members and their representatives in the committee.

This was started in June and ended the first week of August followed by the process which was parallel to the public hearings.
The committee advert issued to inviting those that are having an opportunity to write in their comfort zones to submit their written submissions as well as to participate through the views that they UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 6 would have written to the committee.

They were also requested to indicate if they want appear before the committee to engage with the committee by oral presentation.
Prior to this preceded was an activity by Parliament which we are also thankful to Parliament that we went to the public understanding our people, and we went to the public educated them on the question of possible amendment to section 25 with the public participation units.

We thank the provinces that helped in participating, local government helped in participating even with sponsoring of venues.

We thank you for that.

In September we allocated time for those who wanted.
I want to touch on this because it is a matter for contestation.

We have been threatened throughout by a court process and court interventions by those who are opposed to the possible amendment of the Constitution.

They are doing so even when they know that all the processes followed the committee were fair and equitable and allowed every South African that wanting an opportunity to participate.
So, we therefore in the light of the voluminous responses from the public we requested services of Parliament to support our technical staff.

This technical service is so-called service provider; I think is a popular name nowadays.
The service provider that we asked to assist us with clerical work in its terms of reference to simply play clerical administrative work by capturing the data of the received UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 7 submissions, acknowledging of those receipt submissions to the South Africans that have written and analyse to a limited analysis of what are the trends of the arguments in the content.
We want to say here today to categorise for us and index those submissions.

However, we want to say on record on behalf of the committee that it wasn’t a delegated decision that we took.

We asked them to do clerical work on behalf of the committee so that when we come back we are able then to engage with those submissions and consider them effectively.

On 14 September we asked them to report back to the committee and they brought the report and made the presentation.
On making the presentation we were not satisfied but the report was left with Parliament.

I outlined three processes.

One was the public participation in the provinces; two, written submissions; and three, oral presentations.

All of these were to inform one consolidated report that were are presenting here today.

This report was then consolidated after we have seen out of the written submissions 120 people that have indicated that they would like to be before the committee to do their presentation.
When they have done that we ended up seeing 63, amongst them is all the bodies and entities that have the opinion on the land including the banking sector, commercial agriculture, emerging farmers, civil society UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 8 organisations, individuals, lawyers, academics, and all of them came before the committee.
It took six days and six weeks for public participation in provinces and all of that culminate into this report that we are requesting this House to recommend.

Before I run out of time and before I engage in the debate I must also say what the recommendations we are making.

The recommendation is that the committee endorsed the report in totality with the recommendation that says section 25 of the Constitution must be amended in the relevant sections ...

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

... With it the House must urgently establish a committee to take further this matter ...

[Applause.]

... and further we request this House that this matter be resolved and be concluded before the rise of this Fifth Parliament.

As the member of the African National Congress I must thank the African National Congress for making us participate in this process of fighting and continuing with the struggle for the correction of the injustices of the past of the land disposition.
We were told that this land was taken, because it was vacant, by negotiations and by conquest.

Therefore, we have no case to make.

We were taken to court for that on frivolous points of flaws in the report.

They were at pains, and the councillor I have never seen an idiotic lawyer UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 9 like that.

That one is not learned.

He couldn’t argue his point in court.


Therefore, the African National Congress in its ready to govern and Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, documents says that three things must happen with land and security of tenure.

It says that there should be redistribution.

It says that there should be restitution so that all the land that was taken to people must be given back.

That would be bringing the dignity of an African back.

That would be through the constitutional amendment ...

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

... and bring the constitutional amendment and bring equality because as we speak people told us that they are suffering in poverty.

They are unequal to the other South Africans.

They asked us so, what does equality means if we don’t have land to house, we don’t have land to farm and we don’t have land to make a living.

Therefore, we recommend that the report be adopted.

Thank you House Chair for the little time that you gave.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (): Hon members, we have the Deputy Minister in our midst.

You are welcome, hon Deputy Minister.
Mr L V MAGWEBU: Hon Chairperson, hon deputy Minister, members and fellow South Africana, in his classic novel that teaches much about UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 10 life, George Owell in his book entitled Animal Farm, a certified educator, Asley Canaan, on lessons this book teaches us, and I quote: “I think one of the most profound lessons that comes out of Owell’s work is the ides that in position of power, one can abuse their authority.
It is up to societies to create checks and balances so that such powers cannot silence voices at will and become unchecked and unrestrained in its reach.” Hon Chairperson, this expression finds true meaning on where we are today.

The Bill of Rights in our Constitution – that is our sacred document - provides those checks and balances to ensure that it is not changed unnecessarily and easily so.
Hon members, remember the lessons in Animal Farm, where they had their own constitution given their own struggle, but with time those who were in power began to change and amend.

Some animals became more equal than others.

Those that were in power, also amended the constitution to silence the others.

They then said that animals will sleep in bed between the sheets, yet previously they had agreed that no animal shall sleep on bed.
IsiXhosa: Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, mandiyebeke elubala into ethi siyiDA siyavuma ukuba umba womhlaba mawulungiswe ngongxama okudibene UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 11 nokhawuleza.

Siyavuma kananjalo, ukuba ukuhluthwa komhlaba ebantwini abantsundu yayiyinkohlakalo ebuhlungu apho kwaphalala igazi.

Siyavuma ukuba le ntlungu ilungiswe kodwa ukulungiswa kwayo akudingi ukuba kutshintshwe uMgaqo-siseko.
Inye into ekufuneka itshintshwe, ngurhulumente ophetheyo nje qha qwaba.

[Uwelewele.]

Singumbutho we-DA sifuna bonke abemi beli lizwe bafumane iziqinisekisi zobunini zezindlu ukuze babengabanikazi bezindlu zabo, ezililifa labantwana babo.

Sifuna ukuba bangarenti kurhulumente njengoko i-EFF ne-ANC ifuna kanjalo.

Mayicace elubala into yokuba ukubuyiswa komhlaba kungenzeka singadange saphazamisana nezolimo noqoqosho kweli lizwe.
Ukubuyiswa komhlaba kungenzeka singadange sajongana ngezikhondo zamehlo koko sihlalisane ngoxolo kwaye nangaphandle kokutshintshwa koMgaqo-siseko.

Kwantlandlolo yavela yacaca le komiti ibijongene nokubuyiswa komhlaba ukuba ibingumdudo nje wamasele kuphela we-ANC ne-EFF.

Ibinguqulukubhode kusenziwa uphela-sonwabe kusengelwa phantsi uMgaqo-siseko apho i-EFF ibikhonya phambili inganqandwa ngumntu.

Siyi-DA sithi isindululo sokuba makutshintshwe uMgaqo-siseko yinto eyayisele yagqitywayo yi-ANC kwantlandlolo.
Yonke la nkqubo ibisenzeka phaya kula komiti ibikudlulisa nje usana kunina.

Ibiyinto nje engananyaniso.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 12 NoMongameli ngokwakhe watsho ukuba uMgaqo-siseko uza kutshintshwa kwaye umhlaba uza kubuyiselwa ebantwini.

Ibiyintoni umsebenzi wale komiti xa kucaca ukuba le nto yagqitywa apho yagqitywa khona?

I-ANC ayinanyaniso, ithetha amavel’etshona; ithetha amatile-tile.
Kulo nyaka uphelileyo uMbhexeshi oyiNtloko weQela eliLawulayo wathi: uMgaqo-siseko awunayo ingxaki kwaye akukho mfuneko yakuwutshintsha.

I-ANC ayikwazanga ukuwubuyisela umhlaba ebantwini, qha qwaba.

Namhlanje acula culo limbi lama wexu-wexu.

Amafama amaninzi alinde ngaphezulu kwama-20 eminyaka elinde iziqinisekisi zobunini bomhlaba wabo.

Nanamhlanje, dololo, azikafiki.

Ucinga ukuba baya kuze bakholelwe kanjani ngoku ukuba izinto ziya kujika kwakulo rhulumente mnye?
Ndicela ukubuza Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo ukuba ukutshintshwa koMgaqo-siseko ingaba kuza kuphelisa ubusela norhwaphilizo esilubone eMhalamhala, eMpumalanga kusini na?

Ukutshintshwa koMgaqo-siseko ingaba kuza kuphelisa ubusela norhwaphilizo esilubone e-Estina Dairy Farm, eVrede kusini na?

Impendulo inye, unotshe.

Hayi kusaphethe i- ANC.

Thina ke asingabo ooThuma Mina, abantu abathunywa bangaze babuye, bathi sele bebuyile babuye belambatha.
Sithetha senze kwaye UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 13 asimameli mntu; sixakekile.

Sikhupha iziqinisekisi zobunini zezindlu kwaye sesikhuphe i-100 000 apho silawula khona.

Abafuna ukulima sibanika umhlaba sibanike nenkxaso yemali ukuze balime babengabalimi abaphume izandla.

Into yokutshintsha uMgaqo-siseko njengesisombululo kuba kulungiswa into yomhlaba yingxolo nje.
English: Ms T WANA: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: [LOAD SHEDDING] The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: [LOAD SHEDDING] Mr L V MAGWEBU: [LOAD SHEDDING] IsiXhosa: Xa ndiqukumbela Sihlalo kulo mba womhlaba mandithi, inyaniso ithi, yi-DA yodwa enamandla okutshintsha izinto ukuze yakhe uMzantsi Afrika omtsha womntu wonke.

I-DA iyayikhaba ngeenyawo zombini le ngxelo yalo nomgogwana wale komiti.

Enkosi Sihlalo, ndiyabulela.

Nkosi sikelela i-Afrika.

[Kwaqhwatywa.]


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 14 Ms F BAYENI (Eastern Cape: Chairperson – Public Education, Petitions & Public Participation): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy Minister, hon permanent and special delegates and fellow South Africans, good morning.

Today we deliberate on a very emotional and sensitive matter.

I would appeal hon Chair that we do not become too theoretical in this debate.
Let’s have a robust engagement as public representatives way beyond these walls in the few minutes we are given in this podium.

The aspirations of the citizens of this country rest on our shoulders as public representatives and therefore we need not heckle each other like we are nine-year olds but rather puts facts on the table when we consider this report.

Let us all reflect on whose interests should section 25 be amended or not amended.
Addressing the National Assembly in 1998, Commander Fidel Castro had this to say, and I quote: Today there are still two South Africas, which I should not refer to as white and black, those terms should be forever banished if a multiracial and unified country is to be built.

I rather put it in another way.

Two South Africas, one rich ...

I think in his mind he had Constantia when he mentioned rich.
With the other one that is poor, he probably meant Khayelitsha, Bonteheuwel or Ziphunzana UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 15 in the Eastern Cape.

One South Africa in which there is broad and almost full employment and another in which 45% of the people are unemployed.

One South Africa in which 12% of the population owns almost 90% of the land and another where almost 80% of its inhabitants own less than 10%.
Isixhosa: Ndithanda le ndawo yokugqibela athi kuyo, ... English: “...a South Africa in which 12% of the population owns almost 90% of the land and another almost 80% of its inhabitants own less than 10%”.

Isixhosa: Niza kubona ukuba ndiyaphi, Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, ngeli nqaku lokugqibela ndigqiba ukuligxininisa.

English: Sadly, more than two decades after the Commander Fidel delivered his speech in this parliamentary precinct, the picture has not changed much with ownership of the land in this country.
A crime has been committed by foreigners, and I prefer to call them foreigners UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 16 because they arrived by ship and forcefully removed us from our communal land.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, I want to ask whether the speaker on the podium would take a question on the statistics that she has mentioned.
Ms F BAYENI (Eastern Cape: Chairperson – Pulbic Education, Petitions & Public Participation): If I had 18 minutes I would unfortunately I only have 10 minutes.

So, I will not take the question.

This crime that happened in our land has continued unabated for far too long.

We fought wars of resistance.

We would not have fought if they had legitimacy on the land.

We had to fight wars of resistance.


In the province where I come from there are areas which are still today called Fort Beaufort, Fort Malan and many other forts.

A place is only called a fort where a war was fought.

Hon Chairperson, it does not come as a surprise to me that the DA does not support the amendment of section 25 of the Constitution because their sole purpose of existence as a political party is protection of the interests of white minority.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

But what UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 17 surprised me is the choice of their speaker, like they did during the apartheid era with black on black violence.

[Applause.]

IsiXhosa: Bathumela umhlonitshwa uMagwebu... English: ...to come here and defend them.

That’s cowardice of the highest order.

IsiXhosa: Kutheni le nto bangezi bona baze kukhusela le nto bafuna ukuyikhusela.

English: Where I come from I reside in a plot.


It’s less than a hector.

The House I live in I pay bond every month.

I do not own the land.

Now my neighbour with same predicament comes here.

He stays in a small piece of land that he doesn’t own; that he pays bond on a monthly basis and justifies why we shouldn’t expropriate land without compensation.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

That person does not own land and therefore has no right to defend white people who own many pieces of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 18 land, hectors and hectors throughout the country.

That cannot not be right, it cant be.

He came here and spoke English ... IsiXhosa: ...phaa ekuqaleni... English: ...and said nothing.

Clearly, there are still people who are serving their colonial masters.
Fundamentally, ours is a responsibility to reverse apartheid injustices and correct continuing patterns of deprivation and inequality.

Gathered in Nasrec in December 2017, delegates of the national conference of the ANC discussed profoundly and agreed that the dispossession of the indigenous people of this country of their land has contributed to poverty, hardship and social dislocation.

The conference resolved that we need to expropriate land without compensation as in yesterday.
When we negotiated transition from apartheid to a democratic South Africa we made a lot of concessions.

Some call them sunset clauses.

We negotiated in good faith.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 19 Isixhosa: Thina njengabantu abantsundu sinale nto siyibiza ngokuba buBuntu ... English: We negotiated in good faith because we wanted to avoid civil war thinking that when the government of national unity is in power the whites will then agree to bring back the land at a relative normal price.

But what happened?

Clearly, we negotiated with “ootsotsi” [criminals][Laughters.]
who were and are still hell-bent on ensuring that they continuously suppress us.

If the sun set then I think it is time for it to rise now.

They do not want to amendment section 25 of the Constitution because they argue there is nothing wrong with that section but government has failed to implement land reform policies.

We tried, we tried.
We tried, we tried.

We brought in the willing-buyer, willing-seller policy, but it did not work because they made sure that is does not work by charging exorbitant prices when we wanted land and they wanted more compensation.

Effectively they are “ootsotsi” [criminals].

Another silly argument that is made is that we shouldn’t tamper with farms that are productive as that will threaten food security, the question begs, who work in these farms?
Clearly, it is not them because all they do is to drive around bakkies with khakhi shots.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 20 That’s what they do.

They don’t work on the land.

We must be given the land because land is a means of production.

We need to be given the land.

Allow me hon Chairperson to make an example to illustrate how urgently we need to amend section 25 of the Constitution.
Again, allow me not to mention names because this is a televised debate and for the dignity of those affected I would rather not mention them.

Recently, an informal settlement in Zipunzana in the Eastern Cape, close to East London, caught fire and a lot of families became destitute.

We approached the Department of Human Settlement to offer them at least temporal shelters.

Some families unfortunately could not accept those temporal shelters and probably you maybe wondering why.
Because when they came to Zimpuzana, they did not have a piece of land.

They borrowed a piece of land from someone else to put on a shack.

So, when government gives you a shelter where are you going to put that it because the land does not belong to you?

Government is willing to help, but we do not have even a piece a land to put a temporal shelter.

That’s the urgency in which we need to amend the Constitution.
Hon Chairperson, the ANC endorses the report which supports the amendment of section 25 of the Constitution, thereby calling for the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 21 expropriation of land without compensation.

In the same breath we condemn illegal land grabs.

Let’s do everything responsibly.

[Time expired.]

I thank you.

[Applause.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, had he lived, Robert Sobukwe would be 94 years old today.
Sobukwe was imprisoned and later poisoned to death by the rabid racists who appropriated themselves the right to control lives since 1652.

His only sin was that he dedicated his life, shunned the privileges that his education gave him, and fought for the reclamation of African land and African humanity.

He once noted: The Europeans are a foreign minority group, which has exclusive control of political, economic, social and military power.

It is the dominant group.


It is the exploiting group, responsible for the pernicious doctrine of White Supremacy, which has resulted in the humiliation and degradation of the indigenous African people.

It is this group which has dispossessed the African people of their land and with arrogant conceit has set itself up as the “guardians”, the “trustees” of the Africans”.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 22 It is this generation’s mission to smash this exclusive control of every aspect of our lives by a tiny foreign minority.
As we are joining our counterparts in the National Assembly by accepting the report of the Constitutional Review Committee on amending section 25 of the Constitution, we do so in memory of the gallant struggle of Robert Sobukwe, Sabelo Phama, Chris Hani, Harry Gwala, Mama Winnie Mandela, Inkosi Maqoma, and many others who died in pursuit of this ideal.

To these glorious ancestors of ours: The land is coming back.

Your deaths were never in vain.

This generation of economic freedom fighters has delivered.
After almost 10 months of unprecedented listening to the landless Africans, farm workers, shack dwellers, aspiring farmers, and old people still traumatised by the memories of land dispossession, we have no choice but to appropriately respond to the pain and suffering of our people.

Young and old, men and women, rural and urban, the landless, the poor, the homeless, and aspiring farmers all had the same message to Parliament: Change the Constitution so that it better represents our aspirations.
Black people are landless.

They are poor, homeless and dejected because colonialism and apartheid wanted it to be so, and, since 1994, the democratic state has been unable to reverse this trend.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 23 Our people overwhelmingly resolved that their pain of dispossession can never be equated to the illegitimately acquired land rights of the settler community.
Our people overwhelmingly resolved that paying compensation for land is profane to the memories of all those who died for this reclamation of stolen land.

Today, this Council must resolve once and for all to amend the Property Clause to allow the state to expropriate land without compensation.

Today, we must make the unequivocal commitment to our people that a Constitutional Amendment Bill will be passed before the expiry of the term of this Fifth Parliament.
Today, we must be unequivocal that the only way to secure equitable access for our people is through the discontinuation of private ownership of land and the vesting of land in the hands of the people through progressive state custodianship of land.

Today, we must lay the foundation for a truly egalitarian society where the interests of justice and equality for the poor take precedence over the interests of the landed elite.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Regardless of what the racists in AfriForum, the Freedom Front Plus, the DA and their lapdogs in Cope say, the relentless cry of our people for the restoration of their land can no longer be ignored.

Expropriation of land without compensation is the first and most UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 24 fundamental step in ushering in economic freedom in our lifetime.

We dare not linger.
We dare not linger.

We dare not fail the hopes of the majority of our people.

The EFF is grateful to the tens of thousands of people who participated in the nationwide public hearings.

We have heard your cries, and we vow never to let you down.

We are grateful to all black political parties who agreed to amend section 25 of the Constitution.

You must know that the land is coming.

Izwe Lethu!

[The land is ours!]

Le etla!

[The land is coming!]


Sepedi: Moh T K MAMPURU: Modulasetulo, e re ke rete marota, ke rete bahlaku ba dithebe, ke re magadimana ntweng, ke be ke ba botše gore lerumo la mogale ga le robale.

Ge e le Mogenerale Joubert o dirile semaka, a ihlabiša dihlong ka go fega Kgoši Mampuru II le go ahlolela Kgoši Nyabela kahlolo ya lehu.

O be a re kgane o a ithuša.

Ke mo swantšha le motho yoo a bego a kitimiša phefo.

Kgomonaka batho ba ba e tsebela kae.


Ke bolela ka bana ba gaEsau – Esau ke lefahla la Jakobo.

Batho ba ba re hlakišago ke setšhaba sa Esau, ba be ba se na kgomo le pudi, le kgogo ba be ba se na yo.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 25 [Tsenoganong.]

Ba tlile mo ka sekepe ba hwetša bomakgolokhukhu ba rena mo, ba ba amoga seo e lego sa rena.
A ba ye go bala Genesi 27, ba bale le Genesi 29 kamoka ga yona, ke mo ba tlago kwa gore ga ba na selo - lefase le ke la rena.

E re ke tsene ditabeng.

[Tsenoganong.]

Mohl Magwebu, o tla thušwa ke selo se tee fela, ka gore go tlogela mokgatlo wa gago wa ya go o mongwe ga go sa šoma.

Nna le ge o be o nyaka go tshelela ka mo go ANC, ke be nka se dumele gore ba go tšee.

Ke gore o lwela bao ba šetšego ba fentšwe.

English: Shame on you!


From the onset, we, the ANC categorically and without reservations state our support for the Joint Constitutional Committee Report recommending that section 25 of the Constitution be amended to make explicit that which is implicit in the Constitution with regards to expropriation of land without compensation.

This is indeed a legitimate option for land reform to address the painful history of arbitrary dispossession of land.
Land is a very emotive issue and cannot, and will not be left unattended by the ANC.

It is in the interest of social and economic stability that racially skewed patterns of ownership of land be UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 26 addressed.

The land question is not new to the ANC.

ln fact, the formation of the ANC is as a result of the dispossession of land of the indigenous African people.
When land speculator, William Southey said: All kaffirs, even to Natal, must be subdued, their lands conquered from them and themselves made servants.” Shame on you!

[Interjections.]

Today is the day!

The glorious movement, the ANC was already addressing the plight of our people.

The ANC was formed as a result of the Glen Grey Act of 1894 which sought to make Africans mere wage labourers without means of production.
The Glen Grey Act was later incorporated into the Native Land Act of 1913 which forbade Africans to buy land outside of the 13% which was allocated to them for occupation.

We have always been leading the struggle for land.

Be certain, the ANC.

The President General of the ANC, Pixley ka Isaka Seme is one of the leading figures in the struggle for land.

In 1913, he established South African Native Farmers Association, which bought the Daggakraal and Driefontein - a tšwa kae maina a?
[where do the names come from?]

– these are farms in the Transvaal.

They would have bought more farms but were impeded by the Natives Land Act which made it illegal for Africans to buy farms in the Transvaal.

The forced seizure of land disintegrated Africans from an economic UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 27 and social life and we are still seized with that legacy to this day.
Sepedi: E ya Tubatse; e ya Modimolle, e ya Lephalale, e ya waterberg, e ya Musina.

Ge o dula thabeng, ba re fologa go na le koporo.

Ge o dula mašemong, ba re tloga go na le mafela.

Kgane batho ba ke ba mohuta mang naa.

O re o a “vuma” Magwebu, batho ga ba tsebe gore o “vumela” mogolo gore o be ka potleng ya gago.

English: All wars of resistance were essentially about land.

They were not about democracy.

They were not about anything but land.


Sepedi: Ba re pipa melomo kua Britania ba reela seterata ka Kgoši Mampuru II, ba nagana gore re tlile go robala ra re re ka se lwele lefase ... English: ...we are claiming our land back.

When first Khoikhoi-Dutch War began and when the San people viciously resisted the extension of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 28 settler farms into their hunting grounds, the war was about land.

The hon Stock can attest to this.


Sepedi: Batho ba kua Kapa-Leboa ... English: ... are aborigines, we cannot deny that.

[Interjections.]

Sepedi: Efela re ba ganela le lefase la bona.

Re reng re dira bjalo, ai!

[Tsenoganong.]

English: The Xhosas, led by leaders like Sandile... IsiXhosa: ... mamela ke mam’uWana... English: ... led by leaders like Sandile, Ndlambe, Hintsa, Makana, Maqoma and many others put up strong resistance against the settler and colonial communities.
The Xhosas heroically fought nine wars of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 29 resistance from 1779 to 1878.

The Xhosas were pushed from their land across the Kei River and lost the Amatola land and land around the Tyumi, Keiskamma and Buffalo River — land which was their most prized possession.

They were squeezed into confined spaces.

A total of 16 000 Xhosas died in that war and even more thousands dispossessed.
The traditional structure of government destroyed.

Over 100 years of wars about land.

Shame on you!

[Interjections.]

Seeking to destroy the Zulus ...

[Interjections.]

... through you Chairperson, Khawula should be listening.

Seeking to destroy the Zulu kingdom, the British forces met a crushing defeat in the Battle of Isandlwana.

The Zulus were seized with wars and on every occasion and they fought back.
Overpowered by superior weapons, the Zulus were defeated in the Bambata Rebellion of 1906 which was a move to make them tax payers and wage earners.

Land was at the heart of this war of resistance.

Led by the astute King Moshoeshoe I who carried long opposition to colonial expansion, war broke out in 1854 and the Sothos defeated the British in the Battle of Berea.

With their allies, the Mfengu, Tlokwe and the Rolong, the Sothos subdued the Boers in the Sotho- Boer wars.

This too was also about land.


The Pedis, led by King Sekhukhune, put up a tenacious fight against the settlers who tried UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 30 to settle on their land.

The Boers encountered strong opposition as their farms moved towards the Venda borders.

My grandfather, Kgosi Mampuru II, was killed by hanging when he refused to recognise the colonial governments of the British and later the illegitimate Boer Transvaal Republiek.
Sepedi: O lwele a ba a ntšha mobu mo fase.

O ile a re Modimo le badimo, ke le bontšha gore ntwa ke e fentše, lefase ke la rena.

English: Bring back our land!

All these wars were about land.

People were slaughtered because of land.

Families were torn and broken down because of land.

A nation was divided because of land.

Land is life.

Land is not just a commodity.

Land is identity.

Land is both material and spiritual.

Land is a means of production.

Land is human dignity.


We are debating a very serious matter here today.

It is very spiritual.

The New York Times of December 1886 painted a gory and barbaric scene of Kgosi Mampuru II demise, it stated: “Mampuru was led naked to the jail yard in the presence of 200 whites.

The first rope used broke when the trap was sprung and Mampuru fell into a pit below.
He UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 31 was dragged out, however, and another attempt to hang him was successful.” Since 1923, when the first ever Bill of rights in South Africa was adopted by the ANC, human rights and the attainment of justice have explicitly been at the centre of our concerns.

In 1943 we adopted the African Claims and the Freedom Charter in 1955, the Constitutional Guidelines in 1991 and the Ready to Govern Document in 1993.
Since its inception, the ANC has been committed to the struggle for the return of land which was arbitrarily taken through colonialism and apartheid.

The land question has been a pillar of our struggle as the ANC.

Sepedi: E a itšokotša ANC; e a itšokotša!


English: In the 1923 Bill of Rights, we declared that the Bantu inhabitants of the Union have, as human beings, the indisputable right to a place of abode in this land of their fathers and mothers... and all Africans have, as the sons of this soil, the God-given right to unrestricted ownership of land in this - the land of their birth.
The Freedom Charter clearly states that the land shall be shared UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 32 among those who work it, that restriction of land ownership on a racial basis shall be ended and all the land redivided among those who work it and that all shall have the right to occupy land wherever they choose.

In our Ready to Govern document, hon Nzimande has already has already alluded on this matter.
Chairperson, allow me again to just indicate that in line with our consistent policy position on land reform, the 54th National Conference resolved to use, inter alia, expropriation of land without compensation to accelerate redistribution of land.

It is indeed a myth that the ANC is led by others when it comes to the issue of land reform when in fact the ANC was born as a result of the land question.
The ANC national executive committee, NEC, reaffirmed mixed ownership of land; allowing for state ownership and lease; communal ownership and private ownership of land.

We take cognisance of the mixed economy we have in South Africa.

The ANC does not subscribe to views of British statesman, Alfred Milner, who tried influenced society into thinking that tribal and communal ownership of property is barbaric.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 33 With regard to public participation, Hon Mokwele, the hon Nzimande has alluded on that matter.

We travelled, we criss-crossed the country, trying to listen to the people of the country, and indeed, people want their land back.

The message to the masses – to the people of our beloved country, South Africa, we have heard you.

We know your genuine hunger for land.


We were present when you shared your lived experiences, when you told us of the impact of dispossession.

We heard ... [Time expired.]

The ANC supports the amendment of section 25 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Mr M SKWATSHA): Hon Chair, Members of the NCOP, both permanent and delegates, hon people in the gallery, hon South Africans.
As I walked in here Chair, I was a bit touched when I saw who was seating on the gallery there.

I can see that she is missing now, but I just want to say something about her as I proceed with my speech.

This a historic moment indeed, her name is Helena Pastoors.

She is a lady from the Netherlands and may I deliberately indicate that she is white in colour but someone who fought so much for what we today are supposed to be celebrating, the return of our land.[Applause].
She became part of the forces of the South African revolution, became a courier assisting our forces to come into the country to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 34 liberate us and joined Umkhonto Wesizwe.

She, together with you Chairperson, became members of that glorious army of our people when it was unfashionable indeed.
She, together with you Chairperson, as women and flowers of our revolution suffered so much when she was captured by the apartheid machinery and sentenced to not less than 7 years.

I salute her as I salute you Chairperson, [Applause].

I salute countless millions of women and men of our country on whose shoulders we proudly stand here to say, this NCOP has no choice but to follow the NA in agreeing to amend section 25 and make it much clearer for the expropriation of land without compensation.
I am of course Chairperson, pleased to be part of this debate today.

Yesterday, 04 December was indeed a historic day in the democratic South Africa, when the NA overwhelmingly voted in support of this recommendation from The Constitutional Review Committee.

This was a water shed moment for our country.

Today is a moment that marks the end of an exciting consultation process where our people expressed themselves without fear or favour.
The 05 December, a very important day in the calendar of South Africa.

The member of the EFF has indicated that, today would have been the birthday a great African patriot, Mangaliso Robert Sobukwe.

Needless to say that, today once again would be a day when we remember the first South African black UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 35 President, an icon of our time, he parted 5 years ago, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela[Applause].
It is also a moment of hope for the landless majority of our country who sacrificed meagre resources they had in order to attend the public hearings and express themselves in a desire to free their country.

On the 15 November, the Constitutional Review Committee adopted this much awaited report and recommended that the Constitution be amended to make provision for expropriation of land without compensation.

It is unsurprising that this recommendation has been met with mixed feelings.
Land is an emotive issue.

It is important that as we discuss, debate and deliberate that we do not lose perspective and that we place the recommendation in its proper, historical and social context.

Ours is to build a united democratic, nonsexist, nonracial country.

Our country has emerged from a period of colonisation which we in the congress movement characterise as colonialism of a special type.
President Ramaphosa was spot on when he termed the dispossession of people of their land as the original sin.

In this country, there were wars of resistance and speakers before me have expressed that.

Our people were resisting the capture of their livestock by an UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 36 invading force.

Anybody who seeks to undermine and domesticate us by saying the land was not taken by force, is trying to mislead us to put it mildly.
24 years ago under the leadership of the ANC, South Africa emerged from the tyranny of apartheid colonialism.

This system, by design and effect deprived the majority of our people of their dignity; a key element of undermining the dignity of our people was to deprive them of their land.

Land represents the soul and dignity of a people.


The deliberate choice by the ANC-led government to pursue a policy of comprehensive land reform was motivated by the desire to reverse the legacy of apartheid colonialism and reclaim the dignity of all South Africans.
This policy of comprehensive land reform is a central pillar of what former president Mandela referred to I quote: As a covenant to build a society in which all South Africans, black and white will be able to walk tall assured of their inalienable right to human dignity.

As you know, government pursued the Comprehensive Land Reform Policy through 3 main pillars, land restitution, redistribution and the security of tenor.
These programmes have been implemented under a legislative framework under pinned by section 25 of the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 37 Constitution, yet, with offered of successive administration the land reform programme has been slow and laboured at best.

The recent land audit of the department has shown that land ownership remained skewed, uneven and that black people remain largely landless.
The audit showed that, out of 76% of National Agricultural Land, 72% was owned by White South Africans, only 15% owned by Coloureds, 5% by Indians and 4% by Africans.

Moreover, women owned only 13% of farm land whilst ...inaudible...percent is owned by males.

The uneven land ownership is exacerbated by the increasing and systematic concentration of land.

Since the 2007 world economic crisis, new and safer ...inaudible...stars were found in hand.
The result has been an increase in foreign owned agricultural land in South Africa, in particular Controlled Investment Corporations.

In the early years of the implementation of South Africa’s land reform process, our department felt constrained by the emphasis on the market value of the property to the detriment of other variables which are outlined in section 25(3) from a-e.
Section 25 of the Constitutions sets out a number of factors in addition to market value; these include the history of the acquisition of the property and the extent, direct state involvement and subsidy in the acquisition of property.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 38 Some of the factors could potentially under the right circumstances be used to justify expropriation of land without compensation, yet even with these factors, government’s move away from willing buyer, willing seller approach we have continued to pay exorbitant prices for land.

Some land owners have frustrated the process of land reform by insisting on unrealistic prices and challenging expropriation decisions in courts.
The Expropriation Act also provides for an additional amount set at 2% of the price for any inconvenience that may have been created by expropriation.

Indeed some farmers have preferred expropriation over normal sale in order to get the additional 2%.

These factors have contributed to the rather slow process of land reform.

This is why we did not find it surprising that the ruling party in its conference resolved to pursue expropriation of land without compensation.
I may just emphasize that, for us it is not important what about who we follow, the point is, land must expropriated without compensation and we believe in that [Applause].

Our President in his first state of the nation address committed the government to accelerate the land redistribution progress not only address a gave historical injustice, but also to bring more producers into the agricultural sector.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 39 I have studied the deliberations of the committee and I am aware that some were of the view that the current constitutional framework already permitted compensation.

However, given the lessons learnt from the implementation of the government’s land reform programme, the decision to amend the constitution to clarify the issue of expropriation without compensation is most welcome.
Now that the committee has completed its task and recommended the amendment of the Constitution, the next step is for Parliament to quickly embark on the process of amending this Constitution.

It is inevitable that the constitution will be amended.

The next step will be the drafting of the appropriate legislation to give effect to the new constitutional dispensation.
Hon Chair, whilst the process is essentially a Parliamentary process, the department will be actively involved and available to assist Parliament when called upon to do so.

The department is eagerly anticipating the conclusion of this process, we stand ready as the custodians of land in our country to implement outcome of this constitutional and legislative process.

Hon Chair, the project of building a nation in which dignity for all is secured is difficult, but we dare not waiver, we must continue.
The time has come to build and the time has also come to heal the wounds of the past.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 40 Through exercising the correct choice today, we are poised to take a giant leap in undoing the damaged that was visited upon the authentic inhabitants of this country.

I appeal to all of us to be on the right side of history.
Yesterday, as the NA broke into song as we were about to vote on the question put before us, it is exemplary that we sang a song that says: Thina sizwe esimnyama... We continued hon Chairperson and said: Mabawuyeke, mabawuyeke umhlaba wethu.

Thank you, thank you, we were singing this song not lightly Chairperson, we were reminding ourselves of blood that has been shed in this country.
We were reminding ourselves of a comment by Sol Plaatjie in 1913 on 20 June waking up, he said: Awaking on Friday morning, June 20 1913, the South African native found himself no actually a slave but a pariah in the land of his birth.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 41 Hon Chair, we are saying to Sol Plaatjie and many others, your cries have been answered, never again.
We are correcting what Jan van Riebeeck when he arrived in 1652 at 4pm in the Cape, colonising us.

I wish to conclude by asking, what else could be a more appropriate tribute to our late statesman and icon, Nelson Mandela than to unanimously support this report on this very day that he perished 5 years ago.

I thank you all.

IsiXhosa: Mnu L B GAEHLER: Izwe lethu!

Mayibuye i-Afrika, mayibuye!

Mawubuye umhlaba wethu, mawubuye!


English: Hon Chairperson, after 24 years of a developmental path which heavily relied upon foreign assistance, as a nation, we need to rethink and redefine our path to development.

The means of achieving that needs to be treated, steered and emphasised through the effective usage of land and thus agriculture is the way to development.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 42 Development must also be defined in terms of meeting the needs of the people.

We must agree on four prerequisites for development which are: people; land; good policies; and good leadership.

As elected legislators, we shall not outsource this responsibility.

We shall also resist burdening the courts with matters that are not placed on their desk.

Making laws, including amending the Constitution, is our primary function.
In this regard, the UDM would make a call to all citizens of South Africa and world-over to continue to demonstrate the confidence they have always demonstrated towards our collective ability to peacefully and progressively resolve matters effectively.

IsiXhosa: Bantu bakuthi, sikuxhasile ukutshintshwa koMgaqo-siseko.

Ukuba ngaba niyaqaphela, singamaqaqa emhlabeni wethu.

Xa ufuna ukuya kuhlala endaweni ethile, awuvunyelwa, usuke ukhangelelwe indawo engalunganga.
Sikhangelelwa iindawo ezakhe zambi kakhulu sibekwe apho ukuze sihlale khona, singakwazi nokulima.

Abantu bethu nabantwana bethu, kuquka nootatomkhulu bethu baphalaza igazi besilwela lo mhlaba.

Masiyekeni ukuyityeshela into yokuba kwakulwelwa umhlaba kodwa ngoku sifumanisa ukuba umhlaba obhadlileyo UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 43 nolungileyo asivunyelwa ukuba sihlale kuwo.
Abantu bakuthi abakwazi ukuba bahlale ngaselwandle nakwiindawo ezifana noomaConstantia kodwa singabantu balo mhlaba kwaye sizalwa kuwo.

Bantu bakuthi, sonke siye sawusokolela lo mhlaba.

Abanye babesezwa ii-fish oil abanye bebanjwa, bebethwa kwaye bephethwe oku kwezinja.

Siyalifumana ngoku ithuba lokuba sitshintshe lo Mgaqo-siseko kwaye siyayixhasa loo nto yokuba umhlaba ubuyele ebantwini bawo.

Sifuna nathi siphucuke kuba sasilwela ukuba umhlaba ubuyele kubantu bawo.
Siyi-UDM sithi umhlaba mawubuyele ebantwini baseMzantsi Afrika.

Ibabuhlungu xa ubona abantu phaya eGauteng behlala phantsi komhlaba nakwizindlu eziwayo.

Ukuba uyanyuka uya kwisikhululo senqwelo-moya, apha eKapa ufumanisa ukuba abantu bahlala kwiindawo ezihamba ilindle.

Bantu bakuthi iza kuphela loo nto umhlaba uza kubuyela ebantwini babo.

[Kwaqhwatywa.]

Xa umhlaba ubuyele ebantwini babo, kuza kufuneka siwusebenzise ngendlela eyiyo.

Ze singathathi nje umhlaba kanti asisayi kuwusebenzisa.
Kudala Sihlalo, ndandisithi xa ndibuya eGauteng ndifike abantu bakuthi belimile kuba kaloku bayakwazi ukuwusebenzisa umhlaba ntonje kukunganikwa mathuba.

Nalo, ke ngoku ithuba silinikwa kusithiwa umhlaba mawubuyele kubantu balo.

Kaloku ningabanikazi UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 44 bomhlaba ntozakuthi sithanda singathandi.

Enkosi Sihlalo.

[Kwaqhwatywa.]


Mr F B MLOMBO (MPUMALANGA): Hon Chairperson, members of the NCOP, both permanent and delegates, people in the gallery, South Africans, as I walked in here Chairperson, I was a bit touched when I saw who was sitting on the gallery there, I see she is missing now.

But I just want to say something about here as I proceed with my speech.

This is a historic moment indeed.

Her name is Helene Pastoors.

She is a lady from Netherlands.


May I deliberately indicate that she is white in colour, but someone fought so much for what we, today, are supposed to be celebrating the return of our land?

[Applause.]

She became part of the forces of the South African revolution, became a courier assisting our forces to come into the country to liberate us, join uMkhonto weSizwe.

She, together with you Chairperson, became members of that glorious army of our people when it was unfashionable indeed.
She, together with you, Chairperson, as women and flowers of our revolution suffered so much when she was captured by the apartheid machinery and sentenced to not less than seven years.

I salute her as I salute you, Chairperson ...

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

... and I salute countless millions of women and men of our country on whose shoulders we proudly stand here to say this UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 45 NCOP has no choice but to follow the National Assembly in agreeing to amend section 25 and make it much clearer for expropriation of land without compensation.

I am of course, Chairperson, pleased to be part of this debate today.
Yesterday, 4 December, was indeed a historic day in democratic South Africa when the National Assembly overwhelmly voted in support of this recommendation from the Constitutional Review Committee.

This was a watershed moment for our country.

Today is a moment that marks the end of an exciting consultation process where our people expressed themselves without fear or favour.

The 5 December, a very important day in the calendar of South Africa.
Member of the EFF has indicated that today would have been the birth day of a great African patriot, Smangaliso Robert Sobukwe.

Needless to say that today once again, would be a day when we remember the first South African black President, an icon of our time, he parted five years ago, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

It is also a moment of hope for the landless majority of our country who sacrificed meagre resources they had in order to attend the public hearings and expressed themselves in a desire to free their country.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 46 On 15 November, the National Review Committee adopted this much awaited report and recommended that the Constitution be amended to make provision for expropriation of land without compensation.
It is unsurprising that this recommendation has been met with mix feelings.

Land is an emotive issue.

It is important as we discuss debate and deliberate that we do not lose perspective and that we place the recommendation in its proper historical and social context.

Ours is to build a united democratic, non-sexist, non- racial country.

Our country has emerged from a period of colonisation which we in the congress movement characterised as colonialism of a special type.
President Ramaphosa was spot on when he termed the dispossession of people of their land as the original scene.

In this country, the wars of resistance and speakers before me have expressed that.

Our people were resisting the capture of their land, their livestock and by invading force.

Anybody who seeks to undermine and domesticate us by saying that land was not taken by force is trying to mislead us, to put it mildly.
Twenty four years ago under the leadership of the ANC, South Africa emerged from the tyranny of apartheid colonialism.

This system by design and effect deprive the majority of our people of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 47 their dignity.

A key element of undermining the dignity of our people was to deprive them of their land.

Land represents the sole and dignity of a people.


The deliberate choice by the ANC-led government to pursue a policy of comprehensive land reform was motivated by the desire to reverse the legacy of apartheid colonialism and reclaim the dignity of all South Africans.
This policy of comprehensive land reform is a central pillar of what former President Mandela referred to, I quote: “We enter into a covenant that we shall build the society in which all South Africans, both black and white, will be able to walk tall, without any fear in their hearts, assured of their inalienable right to human dignity–a rainbow nation at peace with itself and the world.” As you know government pursued the comprehensive land reform policy through three main pillars, land restitution, redistribution and the security of tenure.
These programmes have been implemented under a legislative framework underpinned by section 25 of the Constitution.

Yet, with the best of successive administration, the land reform programme has been slow and laboured at best.

The resent led audit of the department has shown that land ownership remains skewed, uneven and that black people remain largely UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 48 landless.
The audit showed that out of 76% of national agricultural land, 72% owned by white South Africans, while only 15% was owned by coloureds, 5% by Indians and 4% by Africans.

Moreover, women owned only 13% of farm land, 1% is owned by males.

The uneven land ownership is sassibated by the increasing and systematic concentration of land.

Since the 2007 world economic crisis, new and safer hive stars were found in land.
The result has been increasing and increasing foreign owned agricultural land in South Africa, in particular, controlled Investment Corporation.

In the early years of the implementation of South Africa’s land reform process, our department felt constraint by the emphasis on the market value of the property to the detriment of other variables which are outlined in section 25 (3) from A until E. Section 25 of the Constitution says out a number of factors in addition to market value.
These include the history of the acquisition of the property and the extent direct state involvement and subsidy in the acquisition of property.

Some of the factors put potentially under the right circumstances be used to justify expropriation of land without compensation.

Yet even these factors, government move away from the willing buyer willing seller approach, we have continued to pay exorbitant prices for land.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 49 Some land owners have frustrated the process of land reform by insisting on unrealistic prices and challenging expropriation decisions in the courts.

The Expropriation Act also provides for an additional amounts set at 2% of the price for any inconvenience that may have created by expropriation.

Indeed, some farmers have preferred expropriation over normal sale in order to get the additional 2%.
These factors have contributed to the rather slow process of land reform.

This is why we did not find it surprising that the ruling party in its conference resolved to pursue expropriation of land without compensation.

I may just emphasise, for us, it is not important what say about who we follow, the point is that land must be expropriated without compensation and we believe in that.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

Our President in his first state of the nation address committed the government to accelerate the land redistribution programme, not only to address a gave historical injustice but also to bring more producers into the agricultural sector.

I have studied the deliberations of the committee and I am aware that some of the view that the current constitutional framework already permitted compensation.
However, given the lessons learned from the implementation of the government land reform programme, the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 50 decision to amend the Constitution to clarify the issue of expropriation without compensation is most welcome.

Now that the committee has completed its task and recommended the amendment of the Constitution, the next step is to quickly embark Parliament on the process of amending this Constitution.
It is inevitable that the Constitution will be amended.

The next step will be the drafting of the appropriate legislation to give effect to the new constitutional dispensation.

While the process is essentially a parliamentary process, the department will be actively involve and available to assist Parliament when called upon to do so.

The department is eagerly anticipating the conclusion of this process.
We stand ready as the custodian of land in our country to implement the outcome of this constitutional and legislative process.

The proschet of building a nation in which dignity of all is secured is difficult, but we cannot waiver, we must continue.

The time has come to build; the time has also come to heal the wounds of the past.
Through exercising the correct choice today, we are poised to take a giant leap in undoing the damage that was visited upon the authentic UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 51 inhabitants of this country.

I appeal to all of us to be on the right side of history.
Yesterday, as the National Assembly broke into song, as we were about to vote on the question put before us, it is exemplary that we sing a song that says: IsiZulu: Hon MEMBERS: [Singing]: Thina sizwe, thina sizwe esimnyama, Mabayeke umhlaba wethu Mabayeke umhlaba wethu English: Thank you.

We were singing this song not lightly.

We were reminding ourselves of blood that has been shed in this country.
We were reminding ourselves of a comment by Sol plaatje on 20 June, 1913, waking up he said: “Awaking on Friday morning, June 20, 1913, the South African native found himself, not actually a slave, but a pariah in the land of his birth.” UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 52 We are saying to Sol Plaatje and many others, your cries have been answered.
Never again, we are correcting when Jan van Riebeeck did when he arrived in 1652 at 4pm in the Cape colonising us.

I wish to conclude by asking, what else could be a more appropriate trip to our late statement and icon Nelson Mandela than to unanimously support this report on this very day that he perished five years ago.

I thank you all.

[Applause.]


Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, the IFP has always emphasised that the struggle against land dispossession in South Africa is much older than political parties and political organisations.

The first wars of resistance against colonialism and against land dispossession in this country were led by Kings and Amakhosi of different nations and their people.
The land that was dispossessed by colonial powers was actually grabbed in the hands of the Kings, Amakhosi and their people.

It was the biggest mistake of the democratic era of the country that the process of land restitution sidelined the Amakhosi and instead created community committees to be in charge of the land.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 53 Credit must be given to the erstwhile KwaZulu-Natal government under the leadership of Umntwana WakwaPhindangene for having a foresight into this matter of land.

The Ingonyama Trust enacted in 1994 in KwaZulu-Natal, which put all traditional land under the Ingonyama of the Zulu Nation was directed at addressing this gap of land ownership.
If there are short-comings noted by the present authorities and this Parliament in the structure and form of the Ingonyama Trust such short-comings and loopholes should be ironed out amicably without tampering with the original noble idea of keeping the land under the King of the Zulu Nation as a custodian for his people.

The King is merely a custodian of his peoples’ ownership of the land.
This Parliament has a duty to make loopholes better whilst keeping the land under its rightful owners, the Zulu Nation; rather than dismantling that ownership and that custodianship.

The IFP sees no reason as to why the little piece of land under Ingonyama should be so much of a threat to our Parliament, whereas there is so much land unaccounted for that is in the hands of government itself; whereas there is so much land in the hands of those who colonised the African majorities.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 54 As a starting point in this debate, the IFP says “hands off” the Ingonyama Trust land; that land is already in the hand of the rightful owners.

Chairperson, allow me to dispel the notion which seems to exist that the IFP is opposed to Black people getting their land back.

How can that be when the IFP is a trailblazer ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chairperson, I would like to check if hon Khawula will take a question?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Khawula, will you take a question?

Mr M KHAWULA: I don’t have time Chair I have to finish my speech.

Ms T J MOKWELE: But you must know that when we say state ownership we even mean that Ingonyama Trust.
Mr M KHAWULA: How can that be when the IFP is a trailblazer on this issue of black ownership of land as shown in the Ingonyama Trust of 1994 before many of the other parties were even born here in this House?
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 55 A friend and a colleague of mine used to have these words in his voicemail: “Amanga achazwe kahle azwakala kancono kuneqiniso elingachaziwe.” What the IFP is cautioning against is that the politics of popularism, especially as the country is moving towards general elections, should not be allowed on the important matters like this one.

Popularism and logic do not always agree.


Land reform matters are very emotional and sensitive amongst communities in the country.

Politics of reason in such instances, like the one that was a driving force behind the founding fathers and mothers of our democracy when they wrote this Constitution should not escape us.

There is a general understanding that expropriation is already provided for in the Constitution.

What has failed the country in land reform is the policy of willing buyer willing seller.
But willing buyer willing seller is not a constitutional directive.

Ms N P KONI: Thank you, very much, Chairperson.

I want you Chairperson to call hon Khawula to order, one, not to be ageism.

Two, I want to caution him that with or without the IFP we are going to take the land.

Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 56 The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Mam.

Hon Koni that is strictly not a point of order.


The question on ageism he referred to parties not to individual members, yes.

Mr M KHAWULA: I hope you will retain my time Chair that has got lost.

Ms T J MOKWELE: AAh, aah, members ...

[Inaudible.]

[Interjections.]

Ms N P KONI: If you don’t behave you are going to ...

[Inaudible.]

[Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... seconds.

[Inaudible.]

[Interjections.]


Mr M KHAWULA: In that case, the question is why has the country treated compensation as synonymous to purchasing for the past 24 years?

When the IFP calls for calmness and hamba kahle approach on these critical matters of land reform and land restitution, it is not a call to halt land reform.

But it is a call to reason and logic.


It is a call to say that this competition of popularism amongst certain UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 57 political parties in the country might spell doom if reason and logic are thrown out of the window.

The land reform and restitution language that the ruling party is talking is not exactly what others in this debate think they are hearing.
The biggest challenge that the country is experiencing at present, which is linked to popularism is that nowadays the ruling party is dancing to every tune of the guitar of popularism that sounds.

Where has the ANC of thinkers and logic gone to?

Lastly Chair, for my time that got lost.

One is hoping for the day when that ANC of logic, which does not spring and dance to every mushrooming tune of the guitars of populism will be returned to the country.

I thank you, Chair.
I thank you, Chair.

Afrikaans: Me C LABUSCHAGNE: Agb Voorsitter, as ’n mens na die toesprake en verwysings luister sal mens kon dink dat die debat oor grondhervorming ...

[Tussenwerpsels.]

... en grondherstel nog nooit in Suid-Afrika gevoer is sedert die apartheidsregering nie.

[Tussenwerpsels.]

Dit dui daarop dat die grondkwessie nog nooit eintlik vir die ANC ’n prioriteit was nie.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 58 Die onbetwisbare werklikheid waarmee Suid-Afrikaners tans gekonfronteer word is dat grondhervorming en grondherstel, wat vir ons noodsaaklik is met ons apartheidsgeskiedenis, nie deur die ANC regering effektief en doeltreffend oor die afgelope 24 jaar gedoen is nie.

Dit was definitief en beslis nie vir die ANC ’n prioriteit nie.
Die pogings van die ANC regering tot grondhervorming en grondherstel sedert 1994 word gekenmerk deur ontoereikende begrotings, onbeholpenheid en korrupsie.

’n Verantwoordbare regering sou introspeksie doen oor sy eie mislukkings en tekortkominge.

Maar dit is egter polities meer voordelig om ’n sondebok te soek vir die trae en oneffektiewe proses van grondhervorming.

Die sondebok is die Grondwet.

Dit moet nou ten alle koste gewysig word.


Gevolglik is daar, ter wille van politieke gewin en opportunisme, ‘n proses deur die grondwetlike hersieningskomitee gestoomrol, wat ons land duur te staan kan kom.

English: Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, there’s a point of order.

Please take your seat.

Hon Mokwele, what is your point of order?


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 59 Ms T J MOKWELE: I would like to check if hon Labuschagne will take a question.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That was not a point of order.

Hon Labuschagne, do you want to take a question?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, Chair.

I will do it afterwards.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: She’s not prepared, ma’am.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, you must make sure that you finish before your time ... hey?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, please take your seat.

Afrikaans: Me C LABUSCHAGNE: Dit gaan egter nie net hier oor die wysiging van die Grondwet nie.

Die Grondwet, soos herhaaldelik al genoem, is reeds 17 keer gewysig.

Mens sou dus vandag kon vra, hoekom die ontsteltenis oor net nog ’n wysiging?

[Tussenwerpsels.]
[Tussenwerpsels.]

Die verskil is dat daardie 17 wysigings tegnies van aard was en het nie die wese van die Grondwet gewysig nie.

In hierdie geval is dit UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 60 egter nie net ‘n wysiging van die Grondwet nie, maar spesifiek ’n wysiging van hoofstuk twee, die Handves van Regte.

Die Handves van Regte is die hoeksteen van ’n demokrasie ...

[Tussenwerpsels.]

... wat die ANC nie lekker ... of die EFF nie verstaan nie.
Hulle is fasciste!

’n Handves gee of skep nie regte nie.

[Tussenwerpsels.]

Dit beskerm bestaande regte wat vir alle mense beskore is.

Jy moet mooi luister, agb Stock.

Die Handves van Regte staan as buffer tussen alle burgers van die land en enige arbitrêre handeling van die staat.

Artikel 25 in die Handves spreek juis een van die kern elemente van enige demokrasie en ekonomie aan, naamlik die reg tot eiendom.
Geen ekonomie wêreldwyd kan groei en suksesvol wees as eiendomsregte nie beskerm word nie en as daar nie teenvoeters teen enige arbitêre onteiening deur die staat is nie.

Kyk maar na Zimbabwe.

Gaan kyk na Venezuela.

Gaan lees.

[Tussenwerpsels.]

Die algemene motivering wat aangevoer word vir die wysiging van artikel 25 is dat dit wat implisiet is, eksplisiet moet wees.

Daar moet meer duidelikheid gegee word oor wat bedoel word met artikel 25.
Die waarheid is dat dit bloot ’n rookskerm is om geldigheid en geloofwaardigheid aan ’n proses te verskaf wat nie eers deur almal in die ANC volledig ondersteun word nie.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 61 English: Ms N P KONI: On a point of order, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, please take your seat.

Hon Koni, you are on your feet?

Ms N P KONI: Thank you very much, Chairperson.

I think madam Labuschagne ...


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no ... Ms N P KONI: No-one asked for her advice and I think it’s time that she realises that land will be expropriated.

So, she would do herself a favour and spare her emotions and her energy, and refocus them on something else.

I don’t think this is the right place.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: On what point are you standing?

That’s not a point of order.

You are debating.

Hon Koni, thank you very much.

Please take your seat.


Hon Koni, take your seat.

You are debating.

It was not a point of order.

Please proceed ma’am.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, Chair.

I know it’s very hard to listen to the truth.

I know.

[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 62 Afrikaans: Die Grondwet bied riglyne en ... English: Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, please take your seat.
Ms T J MOKWELE: The truth that you are talking about is that land must come back.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no, no, hon ... Ms T J MOKWELE: ... is that land must come back and it will come back, and it’s coming back.

[Interjections.]

That is the truth.

The truth is that you have stolen our land.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele!

Hon Mokwele!

Hon members, you will make points of order.

You will ask the speakers on the podium if they can take a question.
You will not debate from your seats with whoever is on the podium, emotive as the subject is.

Please continue, hon Labuschagne.

[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 63 Ms T J MOKWELE: You must choose your words...

[Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You will not scream down the member on the podium!

[Interjections.]

Are you standing on a point of order?

[Interjections.]

Order!

I have a member on his feet.

Please proceed.


Mr E M MLAMBO: ...

[Inaudible.]

... at the podium.

They are taking photos and I believe it’s not allowed.

Can you rule on that?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Who is taking photos?

Mr E M MLAMBO: The lady there with the red cap.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay.

Thank you very much.

Young people, please be circumspect.

There are areas where you are not allowed to take photos.

Please listen.

Thank you very much.

Hon Labuschagne, please continue.


Afrikaans: Me C LABUSCHAGNE: Die Grondwet bied riglyne en norme aan waaraan handelinge moet voldoen en dit is nie net ’n stel regulasies nie.

Die wyse waarop dit in praktyk uitgevoer moet word, word hanteer deur die algemeen geldende regsvoorskrifte soos na verwys word in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 64 artikel 25.

Dit is waar die implisiete, eksplisiet gemaak word; nie deur die Grondwet te wysig nie.
Wetgewing is die meganisme waardeur grondhervorming en die restitusie van grond moet plaasvind onder leiding van ‘n regering met kapasiteit en die nodige politieke wil om dit effektief te doen.

Die VOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP: Agb Labuschagne, ek is bevrees u tyd is verstreke.

Ek dank u, mev.

[Tussenwerpsels.]

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon Chairperson, permanent delegates of the NCOP, guests in the gallery; I am an indigenous black man of South Africa.
My origin, roots and everything of me can only be traced in the motherland.

Oh, South Africa my beginning; South Africa my ending.

My country has been taken from me; all my possessions dispossessed; my father and mother suffering as a result of the colonialists, the imperialists that came into South Africa and took our land.

It was the land question and the dispossession of land that brought about inequality, unemployment and poverty.
Black people were very rich before the settlers came into this country.

They were able to fend for themselves; they were able to farm and do every thing for themselves; they created employment; they shared wealth amongst UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 65 themselves, then settlers came to our land and poverty landed in the motherland.

Oh, South Africa my beginning; South Africa my ending.

[Applause.]

Many people have died.


Hon Magwebu, in the Eastern Cape, the province of the legends, Oliver Tambo left the peaceful province fighting for the return of land.

Now, you come to this podium to say about land that it’s not necessary to amend section 25 of the Constitution.

I will never say, shame on you.

You are becoming irrational; you are becoming something that you are not.
You are a black man in this country; you witnessed people taken out of their land; people taken into ghettos and all fertile land given to those who think they own the land.

Bring back the land!

The land does not belong to you; it belongs to the indigenous people of this country.

The indigenous people of this country are black people and white people in this country who subscribe to the principle of nonracialism.

From its formation, the ANC has fought for the return of land to its rightful owners.
It has fought for the wealth of the country to be shared, and for the rights of its entire people to be shared equally and universally respected.

We are meeting here to give effect to the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 66 demand that was articulated by our forebears, that the land shall be shared amongst those who work it.

Who made today’s debate possible?

We need to look at the history of the ANC from its formation.

Why was the ANC formed?


It was precisely because of the issue of the land.

Therefore, the issue of the land did not start in 2018.

It would be mythical for us to think that this issue only started now.

We are going to address it because it is never too late to address issues.

I also want to express this view very clearly that, we want to expropriate land without compensation in a very responsible manner.

But here, we are dealing with young people who are listening to us at this present moment.
They are patient with us at the moment, but they do not have long hearts like us.

One day, the day will come when they will turn around and not listen to us at all.

Therefore, let us not wait for that time; let’s give back the land to the owners.

Hon Labuschagne, I think that it is important for you to understand that the even in its Constitution or whatever document, the DA has never articulated anything on land because they are very happy and comfortable.
Even the black people who are in the DA have never even UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 67 mentioned the land issue, it is for the first time ...

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Motlashuping, please take your seat.

Let me recognise you, hon Labuschagne.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, I would like to know if the hon member could take a question on our Constitution.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Motlashuping, will you take a question?

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: No, no, no.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He’s not willing.

Please continue.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: No, no.

I am dealing with important issues of national importance.

You see, they have introduced today in their selection of their candidates ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 68 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Motlashuping, can I disturb you?

Hon members, can you please allow the speaker on the podium to continue with the business of the day?

Continue, sir!

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: They have included diversity in the selection of candidates, which is a burning issue to them.

What is diversity?
What is diversity?

It is the inclusion of blacks because they are in the majority here, but the majority of their members are black people.

This is very surprising because it is black people who have been dispossessed of their own land.

In this debate, we must never loose sight of who made this process possible.

It did not start with the passing the ANC’s amended resolution on 27th February 2018.

To think in such a manner would be a mistake.


It was rather the evolution of ANC policy on the land question from the founding of our movement, the ANC, that the moment to address the national grievance, which is the land question, was addressed.

Key perspectives as articulated by the 1923 ANC Bill of Rights, the 1943 African Claims and the 1955 Freedom Charter, was to address the original sin.

When we talk about the original sin, sinners must ask for forgiveness.
If we are all Christians, it is written in the 10 UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 69 Commandments that, thou shall not steal.

If you have stolen, you must ask for forgiveness.

Setswana: Ga onne setataladi; ga o tatalale ka se e seng sa gago, ka gore re tla go manolola.

Re tla go manolola jaaka makwati mo setlhareng sa bloekom.

fa o tatalala, o itira motataladi ka lefatshe larona, Re tla go manolola.

[Legofi.]

English: We will have no options.


Our policies must provide access to land both as a productive resource and to ensure that all our citizens have a secure place to live.

Our approach to land issues must be placed in the context of our overall developmental strategy addressing problems of poverty, malnutrition, landlessness and unemployment.
The major beneficiaries of affirmative action should be the landless, rural poor and women who have been deprived of rights to land through patriarchal systems of land allocation and tenure.
The emphasis of ‘ready to govern’ is on land redistribution and its particular targets are as follows: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 70 Vacant, unused and underutilised state land suitable for residential and agricultural purposes, and shall be made available for redistribution.
Other land to be made available for redistribution in the towns, countryside and should include, land held for speculation; underutilised land or unused land with a productive potential; land which is being degraded and hopelessly indebted land.

In addition, land acquired through nepotism and corruption will be also be available for redistribution, that includes all of us.
Meeting the land needs, report of the High Level Panel on the Assessment of Key Legislation and the Acceleration of Fundamental Change suggests that part of the problem is that since 1994, Parliament has not passed a law on land redistribution to give effect to Section 25 of the Constitution.

Whilst the Constitution will be amended to make expropriation of land without compensation, it is vitally important to address the existing legislative constraints.
Now, we are going to amend the Constitution with or without the DA.

If people would want to understand that democracy means the majority rules, the DA must understand from today that the owners of land; the majority of people in this country ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 71 Setswana: ... bat la fetola molaotheo o o tla busetsng letatshe kwa bathing ba lona.
English: It is also very important to note that as we redistribute and expropriate land, we do so in a very responsible manner.

We do not grab the land because that is an insult to our people.

Our people must be given pieces of land, which is an economic asset.

By so doing, the land will be used for our people to benefit out of it, not for them to be settled in informal settlements.
That is what the land expropriation is intended for and that is what the ANC is propagating, that the land must be returned to the rightful owners.

The ANC supports the expropriation of land without compensation.

Hon Khawula, when we speak about land, we do not exclude any part of land.

We are talking about land in general, including Ingonyama Trust.

You must also know that the Ingonyama Trust is a government land.

You must go and read the Act.

It is government land and we are going to take it back.
Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 72 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, sir.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chairperson, let me start on a lighter note to thank you for the support and thank the hon members of the NCOP and the National Assembly, NA, for working with the committee to make this journey come to this conclusion.
Now that I will not have the opportunity before I reply, thank everybody, the South Africans who participated honestly in the debate and helped the committee to come to a conclusion.

We also thank on your behalf members, because you are not going to be speaking on the farewell item, thank on your behalf, your partners and your families for supporting you in the NCOP and your work as public representatives.
Chairperson, it is exactly this: We have well covered in the report the debates, for and against and the justifications for either of the positions.

Now the DA continues here to make this point on a narrative that we cannot touch the Bill of Rights.

Now whose rights?

For the people that we met do not have the land.

Their dignity and their equalities are affected.

So, whose rights that should not be touched.


So hence Chair that is exactly the rational of our arguments for those who support that there cannot be exclusivity, there cannot be a right group and a privileged group in one country that has their rights protected and cannot be touched.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 73 The ANC offers mixed ownership for the exact the same reason that we are not on a racial war.
We have been threatened in the committee by saying that ... even the public was threatened at some point that you will suffer, be hungry and be poor; when they said they just want dignity they want the land.

You know a gentleman in Swellendam just said that I do not have a space when I sit in a private room and my wife is cooking nice in the kitchen, we fight with smell.

A simple logic for a cry of a human being that I need just a space, a yard so that then I have privacy in the room in the house.
That is a right, a right to privacy.

He is affected by not having land.

We agree with the hon Deputy Minister that that part of what we have captured in the report is that the executive must continue progressively produce the legislative even to respond to what the Constitution is asking.

We thank you for that undertaking and as the NCOP we will certainly follow up on that undertaking as we do our oversight.

Hon Khawula, we are not in the business of fighting the traditional leaders.
Their position is entrenched by section 212 of the Constitution that there is an institution of traditional leadership and there is communal land.

However, also in the report we covered various views of the public.

As you read the report, the views of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 74 the public that says we are part of the communal land, but we have no security of tenure.

Now the chiefs must respond to this.


IsiZulu: Amakhosi awayiphendule lendaba ye-security of tenure.

Awayiphendule lendaba ye-restitution ngoba ... English: ... you know if I may tell as a Nzimande, I do not have a tribe, Khawula, I do not have a chief as a Nzimande, but I come from Swaziland.

So, one day maybe I should have looked for the Ingonyama Trust to say where is my land, because I do not have it?
However, the point that I am making is that there is no war against the traditional leadership and the communal land, but they should provide solutions to the security of tenure.

Hon Magwebu, the women in Worcester, the rich winelands of the Western Cape came to the public hearings in Goodwood.

[Audio interrupted due to load shedding] UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 75 The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order.
Hon members, the screens may not be back, but I am assured the recording and the sound is back.

So we can proceed.

Hon Nzimande.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Hon Magwebu, the women came to Goodwood public hearings from Dedoorings area, Worcester and the Cape Winelands and they said they want the expropriation of land without compensation.
Given their experience that they are living in that they after sweat and toil they are thrown out of the farms, they live alongside the fences of the farms, buy ungraded products and sell them on the streets to survive with no land living in shacks.

Now it cannot be that those that the caring and the democratic government led by the ANC would ignore such quest and such requests.
Therefore, we thank the members for their contribution to the debate for the adoption of the report and we urge you and make a plea to all South Africans to support land reform because it is about dignity and about the human rights.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nzimande!


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 76 We thank you and I do Chair, in conclusion want to thank my family and all my friends and members that do support me individually and personally, particularly my beloved wife.

Thank you very much.

[Time expired.]

[Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.


Declarations of vote: Sepedi: Moh T K MAMPURU: Modulasetulo, re le ba profense ya Limpopo, re dumelelana le pego ye ebile re a e amogela lehono.

Se ke ka lebaka la gore matshwenyego a mantši mapabi le naga a godimo ga rena.

Limpopo e ama mehlobo ye mene ya batho – dikgoši tša Mapedi, Mandebele, Mavenda le Motsonga.

Maburu a tšeere mabu a rena.

Ba re rakile moo re bego re swanetše go bea dikgomo tša rena gona le mabele a rena mefomeng.
Ba re go rena re tloge gobane ba bone ditaemane, digauta, dikalaka le malahla.

Ra re re tšhabela mašemong le gona ba re tloša ba re, aowa, ba bona moruo wa bona.

Bjale re re re thabile go fetišiša re le badudi ba profense ya Limpopo gobane seo e lego sa rena se tla boa.

Mobjadi o tla boela tšhemong a ya a lema, lefase la kgona go phela.

Re a leboga.
Re a leboga.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 77 IsiZulu: Mnu J M MTHETHWA: Ngiyabonga Mphathisihlalo, thina KwaZulu-Natali sifisa ukusho ukuthi siyawesekela kakhulu lombona wokushintshwa kweSigaba 25 nokuthi kubuyiswe umhlamba ngaphandle kwenkokhelo.

Amakhosi aKwaZulu ayakusekela nabantu bawo ukuthi umhlaba ubuyele kubantu.

Siyakusekela futhi ukuthi umhlaba osezandleni zikahulumeni mawubuyele kubantu.
Siyafisa ke ukusho ukuthi njengabantu baKwaZulu-Natali abakhe ngaphansi kwamakhosi, amakhosi ethu ahambe kanye nathi ekubuyiseni umhlaba kulo mkhankaso wokubuyisa umhlaba ngoba lo mhlaba siyazi ukuthi uma amakhosi ewugcina asuke ewugcinele isizwe nokwabiwa kwawo kusuke kusesandleni kwesizwe.

Siyafisa ke ukusho ukuthi abantu basuke bengavikelekile ngokweziqu zabo.

Siyakukhuthaza ke ukuthi uhulumeni angenelele ukuqondisa lokho.

Ngiyabonga.
Ngiyabonga.

IsiZulu: Mnu E M MLAMBO: Ngibonge nathi baseGauteng Mgcinisihlalo ohloniphekile, ... Setswana: Re rata go leboga thata batho ba rona kwa [Tsenoganong.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 78 English: The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng, please hold.

Hon Stock, we have had interruptions of the system.

The screens take a longer time to be back on.

The whole system is old and it is integrated.


Can you come down please and allow us to continue with this.

[Interjections.]

Alright.

Well my ear caught ...

Please continue, hon member.

Setswana: Rre E M MLAMBO: Re le Gauteng re rata go leboga.

English: So many of our people have lost their lives.

The struggle that was waged by our forebears was based in particular on the land issue.

The Deputy Minister and a number of speakers touched on a number of things.
My colleagues and I, we are saying we are in support of section 25 that it should change.

Hon Chair, not because I am buying your face we have been in the trenches to make sure that our land comes back.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]
Sesotho: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 79 Mme N KENALEMANG: Modulasetulo, re le Frei Stata re batla ho ananela se entsweng ke NCOP tsatsing lena la kajeno ho etsa bonnete ba hore seriti sa bana ba Afrika Borwa se a kgutliswa, tokelo ya ngwana motho a motsho e a kgutla mme re re, re ananela haholo ha molaotheo otlo fetolwa ho etsa bonnete ba hore lefatshe le kgutlisetswa ho batho mme kaofela re a tseba hore Frei Stata e ne e le moo e neng e bitswa ka hore ke “food basket” ya Afrika Borwa empa seo se ile sa fetoha ha moshodu a maholo ka hare ho Afrika Borwa bana bao kajeno e leng bo tletleruane ba buang haholo ba bolelang hore rona re le batho ba Afrika Borwa, matswallwa a Afrika Borwa re utswitse lefatshe la rona.
Re batla ho ananela le ho theoletsa hore kannete re re Ketapele e etse ka bonnete le ka matla hore molao le tsohle tse tlameileng hore di etswe, di a etshala mme tsohle re di etsa ka ho ikamahanya le molao.

Re a ananela ebile re re ha hona mohla re tla beha fatshe ho fihlela batho ba Afrika Borwa ba fuwa seriti le tlotla ya bona hobane kannete re ile ra hanyapetswa.

Batho ba rona ba ile ba shwa.


Le mane ka hare ho Frei Stata ho ntse ho ena le metse ya moo honang le marena le dikgosi empa ke dumela hore re tlo sebedisanang mmoho ho etsa bonnete ba hore ho ba le kgotso le bostisto ka hare ho Afrika Borwa.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 80 Ha re tshwaraneng ka matsoho re le bana ba mankgadisi e motshwana re le bana ba batho ba batsho re tlo etsa bonnete ba hore botsitso bo ba teng mme re tlo kgona le ho fepa setjhaba sa rona hobane ha esale e ba rona ba ntseng ba lema lefatshe.

Ha hona motho emong a ka buang betere ka lefatshe ho feta rona matswallwa a Afrika Borwa mme re a leboha.
Le bohle ba hlokahetseng, meya ya bona e tla phomola ka kgotso hobane kannete tsatsing lena la kajeno toka e phethahetse.

Ke a leboha Modulasetulo.

Setswana: Rre T C MOTLASHUPING: Modulasetilo, ke rata go tsaya tšhono eno go tlhalosa gore baagi ba Bokone Bophirima ba kgotsofetse thata ka tshweetso ya go busetsa lefatshe ko bathong.
Segolobogolo baagi ba kwa Masepaleng wa Selegae wa Maamusa, ko Ipelegeng, Schweizer-Reneke ... English: ... where the battle was fought between the Koranna against Schweizer and Reneke who conquered and killed many people there.

May their souls rest in peace, for fighting for the mother land.

Setswana: Re tsaya tšhono eno gore ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 81 English: ... expropriation of land without compensation is long overdue.
Many people have sacrificed including yourselves Comrade Mlambo and the others, sacrificed when there was no choice which the ultimate penalty was death, but you risked and many others, the fallen heroes and heroines of our struggle, Oliver Tambo, Nelson Mandela, Thabo Mbeki, Jacob Zuma and many others.

You cannot quote anybody near these heroes in the Eastern Cape who belong to the Democratic Alliance.

These were the giants of our struggle.

I thank you very much.

[Applause.]


Mr F B MLOMBO (Mpumalanga): Hon Chair, thank you for the opportunity as Mpumalanga.

First and foremost, the coincident of this date - us taking a debate and a decision being 5 December - says a lot to us as people of this country.

It could not have happened at any other better day than today.

This is a day where all of us will remember and say, IsiNdebele: Kwamambala, iphasi lekhethu libuyile.
IKosi uMampuru wabalekela eRholweni lokha amaBhuru nagade amgijimisa; iKosi uNyabela wamfaka ngeRholweni.

AmaBhuru amfumana UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 82 ngesibanga sokobana kwaphela ukudla lapha bebakhona ngaphasi emgodini.

Kwafanela ukobana bakhambe bayokufuna ukudla.

Waphelela ePitori banoNyabela kwaba kukuthi iphasi labe likhambele unomphela.
Sithokozela iSewula Afrika, i-ANC nazo zoke iihlangano ezibambisene ne-ANC ukuthi namhlanje sitjho soke ngelizwi linye sithi, “iphasi lekhethu libuyile.” Sihlalo, abomma boke beSewula Afrika abakghone ukuthi bakhuthaze amaqhegwana la abone indlela ekungiyo, ubadosa phambili, nabogogo boke, iAfrika nasi ibuyile.

uZimu asitjhudubaze soke.

Sithokoze.

Afrikaans: Me G G OLIPHANT: Voorsitter, ons in die Noordkaap, ons is baie bly vir artikel 25, want mense het gesterf.

Mense het gelei.
Mense het gelei.

Andere het nie by hul huise gebly nie, net oor een ding: grond.

Daardie tyd was aan ons gesê, ons is te slim, ons is te groot vir ons skoene.

Maar nou, vandag, is die Noorkapers ook bly vir die artikel 25, want hulle ondersteun ook.

Ons is ook bly.

Ons sal ook kan verstaan in die land in, waar is die KhioSan?
Waar is ... waffer nasies ... Laat ons ook bymekaar kom, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 83 want wat ons ken is ... Noordkaap is baie landelik.

Die mense daar bly ver van mekaar af.

Maar nou kan ons verstaan.

So die Noordkapers ondersteun artikel 25 van die land se Grondwet.

IsiXhosa: Nks P C SAMKA: Enkosi Sihlalo, ndicinga ukuba iphondo laseMpuma Koloni linembali kulo mcimbi sikuwo namhlanje wokuthathwa komhlaba ngendlela emnyama.
UJan Van Riebeeck ufike nge-1652 elunxwemeni lakuCentane, apho bangena ngoNongqawuse intombi kaMhlakaza.

Imbali iyasixelela ebunyanisweni ukuba nangoku kusasetyenziswa umntu ontsundu ukuze olu hlanga lumweka luzuze umhlaba.

Siyibonile loo nto isenzeka ngoku kule Ndlu.

Loo nto indikhumbuza imbali ye-ANC xa abantwana beli lizwe bephuma bewela imida, besiya kulwela umhlaba osezandleni zegcuntswana labantu.
Namhlanje, ngale mini yokuhamba kukaTata uMadiba, uNelson Rholihlahla Mandela, iPalamente le sikuyo ithi umhlaba mawubuyele ezandleni zabantu bawo.

Le nto yenzeka apha namhlanje ingabonakala iyindlalo kwabanye abantu.

Iyasikhathaza thina loo nto kuba kukho abantwana babantu abasahlupheka nanamhlanje.

Thina sineenkosi zeli lizwe ezisaphatheke kakubi nanamhlanje ngenxa yento yokuba umhlaba waye wathathelwa ezandleni ngabantu abaligcuntswana.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 84 I-ANC iyalawula kwaye siseza kulawula.

Ndikhumbula intetha kaMadiba xa wayesithi nokuba semkile kweli lizwe uya kufika ezulwini ajoyine isebe le-ANC kuba awukho omnye umbutho okwazileyo ukutshintsha iimpilo zabantu kweli lizwe ngaphandle kwe-ANC.

Yiyo yodwa ekwazileyo ukutshintsha iimpilo zabantu kwaye ikwa yiyo ethi lo Mthetho masiwulungise.

Yiyo ethi umhlaba mawubuyele kubantu bawo.


Siya kusoloko sisitsho ukuba mawubuye kodwa oozungul’ichele namhlanje bayateketa kuba indlala inamanyala.

Kule Ndlu sisininzi kodwa namhlanje siyateketa ngenxa yephango.

Ukuba umhlaba ubukuthi, Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, ngesingathethi ngolu hlobo sithetha ngalo apha.

Kusetyenziswa abantu abantsundu ukuze kuzuze igcuntswana labantu.

I-ANC neenkosi kwiphondo laseMpuma Koloni bathi namhlanje bayavuya xa siza kupasisa lo Mthetho.

Enkosi Sihlalo.

[Kwaqhwatywa.]


Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The Western Cape does not support any amendment to article 25 of the Constitution - the property clause.

The DA policy encapsulates an effective and an accelerated process of land reform and land redistribution where security of tenure and where people get their title deeds of the land or property.

This is the only way to build the economy and guarantee security to all people living in South Africa.

Thank you.
Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 85 Question put: That the Report be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

AGAINST: Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
HON MEMBERS: [Singing] RULING BY THE CHAIRPERSON ON A POINT OF PRIVILEGE RAISED BY MS T J MOKWELE DURING THE PLENARY OF 4 DECEMBER 2018 ON THE FILMS AND PUBLICATIONS AMENDMENT BILL[B37B-2015] The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!

There is time for everything.

Hon members, before I go to our last item I want to make a reflection on what happened yesterday when a report from the Films and Publications Amendment Bill was put to the House.
Yesterday I undertook that I would quickly go and look at the facts but I also dealt with one matter related to whether the meeting was UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 86 legal or not – that is not in dispute.

The committees of Parliament in both Houses have rules that give them powers, determine their agenda, time and place to hold meetings.
So, it is not in dispute that that meeting was convened legally but what was in dispute in my mind was whether or not all members had been informed.

I have since found that in fact, there had been a running commentary between the members, I have had access to the communications thread, I have noticed that one member removed himself from the WhatsApp group that was ultimately used when we were in Gauteng to remind members of the meeting.
I have also ascertained that the said member had been aware that permission had been sought and given for that meeting to take place on the sidelines of the Taking Parliament to the People.

I am also aware that another member did not attend the meeting because communications continued to be sent to the old contacts that the member had.

We have since ascertained that the member has now given her new contacts to the committee.
The third point that was raised is that, in fact, the stakeholders were excluded from the meeting.

I am satisfied that in the last meeting which was held in the premises of Parliament the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 87 stakeholders raised the possibility of being excluded when this committee met on the sidelines of the Taking Parliament to the People.

I am satisfied that they were kept in the loop; communications with them was there.
I am told that there was a representative from this particular stakeholder in that meeting that evening.

Therefore, it is difficult for me, with all the information and the little investigations that had been made, to agree that this meeting was illegal and that people were excluded.

Thank you very much.

Hon members, I would now like to afford members the opportunity to bid each other farewell since today is our last sitting day.

Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order Chair.


May I address the Chair on the matter that you have just ruled on?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Proceed.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, this matter with regards to my members, which is the member of the said select committee, hon Koni, is that the secretary of the committee has been communicating with her on her current contact detail which means that she knew very well and she UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 88 confessed with her mouth in my presence that it is her fault that she used hon Koni’s old number instead of the new number.
Therefore, she admitted in my presence that it is her fault.

Even when we were at the plenary, hon Koni and I made it a point that we enquire about the venue.

We knew that the time was half past six but the venue was not known to hon Koni.

Even when the meeting was in process, hon Koni made it a point to call the secretary of the committee to check where they were but she couldn’t answer.
She came after the meeting where we were seated to say that “I saw your missed calls but I couldn’t come back to you because the meeting was in process.” So, I would like you to include that when you do your investigation.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, also as the member of the committee I can also provide the WhatsApp group where the communication went through.
That is why I am actually surprised that was not considered because on there is exactly the point that it was said that a venue will be provided at a later stage and it wasn’t done and it was for 18:30 while we were still in a plenary.

We arrived at our hotel around 20:00 in the evening ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 89 The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members ... Mr C F B SMIT: ...

I just want to finish off with that Chair.


I would also request that proof that the communication was actually provided to you also being provided to us as committee members as requested in the letter that was never even responded to.

Thank you Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I will go back.

The reason I came back to the House is that I could not find a place in this whole thread where there was a deliberateness of excluding other parties or other members.
I found that there was communication that went to an old contact.

I sat down with the committee clerk.

I know exactly when you left the group, hon Beyers.

I would undertake again to go back to deal with this matter.

But I am also aware, and I hope members are also aware, that we are ultimately responsible to indicate when we get or don’t get communication.
I want to apologise to the members where mistakes were made by the staff, but looking at the communications, it becomes difficult for UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 90 me to say that ... in this case there is only one member from the EFF who sits in that committee ...

[Inaudible.]

In the instance of the DA and it is a trial I did not want to do from ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

There were at least three names; the two other members of the party were communicating right through.

Hon Smit, the reason I came back to your name is that there was no thread of communication at all responding to the communications from the two committees not just this one but the other one headed by Mr Sefako.

That is when we went back and traced when you left the group.

They did not take you out but you left the group.


Again, we need to say that when members change their contacts for whatever reason, please ensure that you update the committees.

Hon members, I apologise on behalf of this House for what took place yesterday and I hope we will not go through it again and also to assure us that there will never be a deliberateness to exclude members from participating; it is your duty, your right, you don’t represent yourself but represent constituencies.
It is on behalf of those constituencies that I abstained yesterday - constituencies that are not necessarily my colours but constituencies of South Africans who sent us all here.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 91 I want to apologise for what took place yesterday.

I will go back again and recheck and then communicate with the respective parties on this matter.

Can we now proceed with the moment at hand and bid each other goodbye for the year?
FAREWELL SPEECHES Sesotho: SEPHADI SE SEHOLO SA LEKGOTLA LA NAHA LA DIPROFENSE: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo.

Ke isa hlompho ho motsamaisi, Modulasetulo wa Lekgotla la Naha la Diprofense, Mme Thandi Modise, ke hlomphe baromuwa ba kgetheileng ba teng kwano, le nyehelo ya bona dipuisanong tsa kajeno.

Ke boele hape ke ise hlompho ho Lekgotla la Mmuso wa Selehae la Afrika Borwa.
English: And I am advised also that there are young people at the gallery from Africa Future Leaders HUB, who in their own names represent their schools.

They are debaters who will be representing the country outside South Africa.

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

And I must also acknowledge the Deputy Minister Skwatsha’s presence here earlier and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 92 former political prisoner, an underground operative, an MK who serving the trenches, comrade Helen Bastoor.

But I think today I must also say that I am happy to indicate that two of my children are here, Thuto and Tsebo, at the gallery.

[Applause.]

[Interjections.]

[Laughter.]


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected Chief Whip.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chair, today marks the last day of our sitting before we rise for a long constituency period and the 2018 December vacation.

This indeed presents a rare opportunity for most of us to enjoy the abiding quality time with our families and friends after a hectic year of hard work.

We rise to wind up our business this year.


We do so amidst the unbearable pain and great sense of loss with the news of passing away of one of our great leaders, tried and tested veteran struggle, former Treasurer General of the ANC, diplomat of our country and selfless servant of our people, comrade Menzi Msimang.

Allow me to join many voices from within and beyond our boarders to extend our heartfelt condolences to the family, friends and comrades of this giant of our struggle.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 93 The death of comrade Msimang follows the successful act of international human solidarity in the form of the Global Citizen Festival in recognition of the legacy of the leadership that has touched the poor, the weak and the vulnerable and for world peace and justice.

For this, we salute Motsepe Foundation for using his riches to forge unity and diversity, reconciliation and human solidarity.
The recent Motsepe Foundation initiative should present a critical challenge to the political elites to come out of their political costumes and unite society again against common socio- economic ills such as poverty, crime, violence against the vulnerable - children and women in particular.

Many social ills in our society like crime; corruption and poverty do not know political boundaries and can only be defeated if we begin to step up a united front and united in diversity.
This is the supreme test of leadership in the 21st century against which the success of our leadership will be tested.

As we close today, we do so cognisant that this year, 2018, occupies a special place in the calendar of the evolution and history of this august House in two essential respects as a second Chamber of a democratic Parliament.

Firstly, it marks the first year in the third decade of the existence of this House.
Secondly, it is the last year towards the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 94 next year’s national elections that will usher in the sixth democratic Parliament in the next six months.

It is therefore a defining moment in the coming of age of our institutions of democracy and especially the future of the NCOP in our constitutional democracy.
According to social scientist, the coming of age refers to a stage in the evolution of an organisation where it attains identity formation, maturity, respectability, recognition and prominent.

Accordingly, as millions of South Africans cast their eyes on the session today, they will do so with only two expectations.
One; whether we reaffirm our commitment to justify the future of this House in our constitutional democracy or we relegate it to the fate of history; therefore in this instance, there cannot be any middle root.

It is against this background that our farewell messages will only make sense to our people to the extent that they provide brief account of the year under review, frankly, exposing both our successes and failures.
We should do this not as a cheap political point scoring but to inspire confidence in our people that as their representatives, we can learn and make tomorrow better than today.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 95 The unique character and role of the NCOP in South Africa’s constitutional democracy impose compelling duty upon us all, never to cease to think about how best to live true to its historic mission as crafted by the architects of our Constitution.
This should proceed from the appreciation that this strategic mission is unique from all legislative Chambers in this country.
In 1995, members would recall that the ANC made a submission to the constitutional assembly which was supported by all parties correctly which sums up strategic mission as: “Integration of our systems of provincial and local government in to national policy architecture requires a unique calibre and quality of cadres across political parties who should never sees to build their capacity as development activists that are responsible for the needs of our communities” Through our three-high level strategic flagship programmes, namely; Taking Parliament to the People programme, the NCOP Provincial Week programme and NCOP Local Government Focus Week; we have made qualitative headways in unlocking service delivery and development bottle necks.
The key question is whether our current institutional planning template has been sufficiently enabling to ensure that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 96 these flagship programmes becomes the focal point of integrated and co-ordinated monitoring and oversight, especially at the committee level.

At the core of this flagship is to ensure integrated corporative governance system and a developmental state capable of responding to the needs of our people.
Critical to our planning template should therefore be a co-ordinated response to the needs of our people across the nine provinces and a greater signage to give coherence to these flagship programmes.

It therefore means that the committee’s oversight focus of this House should therefore not be conventional but should largely driven by the agenda arising from Taking Parliament to the People, Local Government Focus Week and the Provincial Week Programme in an integrated and co-ordinated manner.
Hon members would agree that what makes organisations to fail is a permanent fixation with the ambition to set many goals and targets that are not achievable.

For this House to capture the imagination of our people, we need to limit our focus on few but high impact level strategic areas like housing, education, good governance, health and local economic development and also focus on infrastructure much needed in our communities.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 97 One of the abiding successes of this august House during the period under review is the ability to transept narrow political interest in political interest in pursuance of the collective interest of the country and its people.

We have fought bitterly where we differed but that never translated into paralyses of the work of this House and its committees.
For this, credit must go to the heads of delegation; provincial Whips and leaders of various political parties represented here in this House for sterling leadership.

This will be celebrated by even those who will come after us.

There’s one-abiding resilience against the subordination of superior logic that the two evils of democracy can paralyse good governance and development.
And these two evils of democracy are blind opposition that opposes for the sake of opposing and blind majority rule that are arbitrarily subordinate superior logic to majority views which characterise many Parliaments in the world.

This we owe to the legacy of the architects of our Constitution who recognises unity and diversity as the defining future of the collective heritage and strength of our people.
We would agree that it takes a matured and seasoned politician to understand that macro political and economic environment does influence the behaviour of political actors and also redefines the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 98 rule of engagement in the battle of ideas.

The fifth democratic Parliament of South Africa has not escaped the evolving global context of a deepening crisis of capitalist production and accumulation.
The crisis and its associated evils of the deepening levels of unemployment, poverty and inequality have redefined a political landscape in our country.

The ANC’s strategy and techniques notes amongst the political effect of this crisis; is the persistence of the trust deficit of our people in the political and business elites to provide solutions.
Ordinarily, this renders political parties irrelevant in the eyes of our people which compel them to project a more superior vision and resilience as the ultimate answer to the challenges faced by our people.

This attempt to conquer confidence of the decisive majority of the people assumes unconventional propositions which include attempts to intimidate others in terms of political views.
For us as the ANC, this is an acceptable machination in competitive politics as long as it is within the bounds of established practice.

Conventions and fundamental norms and values of constitutional democracy; these are critical for the decorum of Parliament as the final arbiter in the societal battle of ideas for fundamental change and transformation.
Bullying each other and seeking to drown and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 99 shut down dissenting voices, irrespective of how much correct we think we are, is militancy.

We condemn this behaviour not out of fear of robust debates but in defence of our Constitution which is written with the blood of our martyrs.
There is no secret that disrespectful, chaotic and disruptive behaviour in the Chamber plays great toll on our Presiding Officers in their task of allowing every voice to be equally heard in the House.

Despite these challenges and irritations, our Presiding Officers have chosen not to abuse their position to favour any member against another one based on their political party affiliation.
We owe this to our tried and tested visionary leadership of revert sister, mother, commander and commissar and a leader of impeccable listening and persuasive skills, comrade Thandi Modise.

Comrade Thandi has refused to be defined by the moods of passing events in how she handles her duties of presiding in this House.
Together with her team, their rulings have always been at times the cause of irritation of both members of the opposition and even in the ruling party which is what is needed in the consolidation of our democracy.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 100 It must be said that despite some little annoyances, ours was great and learning team of men and women committed to serve our people.
It must be stated that without the discipline and support of opposition parties and the work of committees in this House, it could have been paralysed.

We could not have passed legislation and adopt committee reports to this end.
Let me extend my special gratitude to the leaders of all parties for the co-operation and hard work they dedicated to the House and to the provincial heads of delegations in their difficult task of liaising and co-ordinating with the provinces and management of provincial delegations.

Chairperson, as a former soldier you will concede that there is no army that can fight and win the battle with the generals without the ground forces.
Without the members of this House, the work of the committees and the ability of this House to fulfil its constitutional mandate would have not been realised.

Our ability to proceed and adopt many committee reports and legislation during this period under review was due to the diligence of hard work of Chairpersons of select committees.

Without you comrade, we would have been an army without platoons and platoons commanders and a big thank you for your sacrifices.
You must acknowledge that you did well at least.

[Applause.]

Thank you Pastor for also taking charge of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs CoGTA, committee.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 101 I want to say Chairperson in conclusion that I recognise both the political and administrative support that is provided.
Firstly, he caucus of the ANC and also the administrative support under the leadership of Advocate Phindela for tirelessly supporting the Whipery.

And of course the Chief Whip’s office under the skilful professionals Zama Mvulane to co-ordinate the affairs of our programme.

And I also want to say that we always need to recognise our service officers who always help us to do our work promptly whilst we are seated in the House.
Finally, comrade Chairperson, I must conclude by saying that to comrade Cathy Dlamini and Ncitha and other comrades who suffered the unbearable loss of their children and loves one, our prayers are with you during the festive season when your memories will cast on those departed souls.

I thank you Chair.

[Applause.]

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Honourable Chairperson, hon members, fellow South Africans, Socrates once said that “the highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others”.
The challenges and experiences of 2018 for the NCOP should make us question whether we have excelled in our mandate from the people or have we opted to go for business-as-usual effective and lasting outcomes.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 102 There is one element of our service in this institution that we must never ever forget, we are put here by the people of our nation for the people of our nation.
Therefore, we are fully accountable to our people who without doubt, expect of us to serve in our capacity with unconditional integrity and principle.

However, when we take a critical look at how this House has conducted our legislation processes, we need to answer the following questions.

Do Chairpersons and members of every committee have sound knowledge of the processes and procedures of legislation?

Do we take up the responsibility to do oversight on legislation?
Do we really take responsibility to represent the views of the people given during public participation?

And when we are not sure on the procedure, do we get legal and expert opinion, or do we resolve to follow the party line?

We must remember we are the National Council of Provinces — not the national council of parties.

Do we ensure that the inputs of public participation are fully engaged with to ensure a fruitful legislation process?
Or do we choose to disregard the issues of the very same people who had put all of us into this Council?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 103 Hon Chair, I am convinced that very few pieces of legislation that have come through this House can fully measure up to all these questions.
It is not always the case that Chairpersons and their respective committees in their oversight role, question departments on their cost analysis, socio-economic impact, all of legislation as well as the implementation plan of legislation.

Perhaps this the reason that the High-Level Panel step in to conduct such assessments.

Surely, this should make us questions ourselves whether we are meeting the basic requirements of our roles.
What distinguishes us from our counterparts in the National Assembly is the NCOP’s power to conduct and implement crucial and much-needed interventions in municipalities and provinces.

These interventions are initiated to ensure capable, accountable, effective and responsible governance on a local level that are closest to the people as provided by our world-renowned flawless Constitution.

Nonetheless, these interventions are not always initiated with pure intentions.
What has become evidently prevalent in our most recent interventions is that this Constitutional mechanism has become hijacked to address or resolve political factionalism, sometimes in an intervention into a provincial government, having even materialized in an Ad-Hoc UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 104 Committee into the North-West.

The rules of the NCOP is our mantra.


When we step into this Council or conduct any work outside of it, it is in our capacity as members of the NCOP, we must follow and respect this rulebook as if our lives depends on it.

What is crucially important to note is that we have not always been respectful to these rules.

Just one example is the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Amendment Bill that has sat in the NCOP for over 2years.

This is not the typical lifespan of a Bill in this upper House.
This is a result of having fundamentally failed at understanding legislation and having the sound knowledge on the rules and procedures that apply to the legislation process.

One of the other key functions of Parliament is to conduct oversight on the President and the Executive.

This is practiced through question sessions with the President, Deputy President as well as all Cabinet Ministers.
This is especially vital in our role as Members of Parliament to ask the tough questions that the people of our nation demand answers to.

It is nevertheless, rather unfortunate that the NCOP was disadvantaged this term when three question clusters plenaries were cancelled.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 105 It is important to note that these three clusters included nine ministries, most notably the new Minister of Finance, who the NCOP has yet to engage with.

It is further important to notice that those plenaries were cancelled to make space for committees to meet.

But we still find it necessary to rush two meetings on one evening at the same time that we had taken Parliament to the people.
the question remains are we working effectively or are towing the party line?

I would also like to use this opportunity to acknowledge the people who are often working behind the scenes to ensure this institution and more specifically, this Council, remains functional.

This includes our table staff, committee staff as well as the legal staff.

I would like to ask all of us to give them an applause for their work.
I further would like want to thank the hon Modise for her leadership as Chair of this Council.

She understands has a sense of what it means to serve as Member of Parliament as well as a Presiding Officer.

Let us not forget the colleagues who have suffered losses of their own, from family to friends.
While matters in this Council can often UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 106 get very heated, we must remember we are all human beings, and when we hear of a member’s loss, we sincerely sympathize for them.

This was especially challenging for the DA members of this Council, when our former Leader, Elza van Lingen had passed away in April this year after a lengthy battle with cancer.
Elza was a gladiator, who dedicated her life to public service, having very often sacrificed so much of her personal life for her work.

But this is what made her so admirable.

Elza is the example of what we all should embody.

I would lastly like to thank our colleagues from the ANC, EFF, UDM and IFP.
While we are often at opposing ends on critical issues, we are still colleagues, where in our capacity as Members of Parliament, MPs, often require us to put aside the political differences to work together to solve problems.

Respect for one another is exceptionally important.

The people of our nation look to us for leadership and example.

Often respect for one another is not always applied in this Council, thereby creating more tension.
I call on all members to try their best to conduct themselves as politely as possible when engaging with each other.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 107 To the ANC members, I trust that you will use this much-needed holiday break to prepare yourselves to be in opposition in 2019.

You are always welcome to speak to me or any of my DA colleagues to get a few pointers.

I would like to wish everyone a blessed and safe festive season.

God Bless!
God Bless!

** NO SOUND DUE TO INTERRUPTION OF POWER SUPPLY – Ms N P KONI’s SPEECH NOTES INSERTED** Ms N P KONI: Hon Chair, I think I have six minutes!

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You do have six minutes ma’am.

Hon Khawula?

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chair, on a point of privilege.

When we started this morning, the officer presiding announced that the Whippery agreed that there will be no motions, but she forgot one announcement [Interjection.]
that the Whippery agreed that the speaking for this item will be open-ended.

[Laughter.]

Ms N P KONI: On behalf of the EFF NCOP caucus I want to wish all members of this council farewell as 2018 draws to an end.

This year was a busy year and as a collective there was a lot that needed to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 108 be done.
Next year we will only be in Parliament for a few weeks or months before elections begin, so I want to reflect on some of the milestones that we achieved.

When we first arrived in this Parliament accountability was just a word, and the ANC had for years used their majority to bully opposition and get away with murder.

It was why Jacob Zuma and his cabal representing the Guptas were able to do as they pleased without consequence.
But we put an end to this and whenever the executive made an appearance in this council or in a joint sitting we made sure that he would answer for his corruption.

Since then, Jacob Zuma has been forced to resign and we are uncovering the levels of corruption that took place under him.

But perhaps the greatest achievement of this Parliament over the last four years has to be the historic decision to begin the process of amending Section 25 of the Constitution.
Happy 94th birthday Ntate Robert Sobukwe, Rest In Peace.

Today our decision to adopt the Constitutional Review Committee Report was a process hundreds of years.

in the making.

And we are continuing with the struggle our ancestors have fought for hundreds UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 109 of years.

We will be coming for nationalisation and I tell you now, it will happen; mark my words.
While as Council members we may have disagreed on many issues over the course of the year, we would like to thank all members of this council for the work we have been able to achieve.

No permanent friend or enemy in politics.

We would also like to make special mention of the NCOP staff, as without you, we would not be able to do our jobs.

From secretaries, police, and all other support staff, your contribution does not go unnoticed, and for what you do we say thank you.
To South Africans, we wish you a happy festive season.

May you stay safe and protected so that once the New Year begins we can once again get back to the job of holding the executive accountable and legislating for a better South Africa.
** NO SOUND DUE TO INTERRUPTION OF POWER SUPPLY ** Mr M KHAWULA: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 110 ** NO SOUND DUE TO INTERRUPTION OF POWER SUPPLY – Mr L B GAEHLER’s SPEECH NOTES INSERTED** Mr L B GAEHLER: Madam Chairperson and hon members, once again we are given an opportunity to reflect on our performance during the calendar year ending.

I am proud to have been associated with this august house over the period of almost five years.
I can proudly claim that we have managed to represent those who mandated us to represent them in this house of parliament.

The majority of these are the poor, and women who are found in the rural hinterland of our country.

Notwithstanding the excellent laws we have processed and passed.

Their lives are yet to still change for the better due to the lack of effective government that has a will to execute their mandate.
The current economic improvement during the third term of 2018 is welcomed, but we must never forget the party who caused the economy to decline in the first place.

The Economic improvement is always seen as a good contribution towards translating the laws into practical life changing tools.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 111 Our people do not eat Bills but the intended purpose of what the bill must achieve.
Accordingly, we must move with speed towards ensuring effective implementation of all the laws we make.

The High Level Panel, led by former President Kgalema report, has already pointed towards this direction.

We dare not fail our mandate.

The debate on the Constitutional Review Committee, CRC, report and it’s adoption, is yet another development in the right direction.
The UDM is more than ready to further contribute to the development and adoption of a Bill that will ensure that the land is returned and shared amongst all citizens.

One of the most important challenges that this house is tasked with, and should maybe follow through to the sixth democratic National Council of Provinces is the proper location of this house as indeed an upper house of parliament.

This includes the challenge to transform quantitative public participation to a qualitative participation.
Chairperson, on behalf of the UDM, let me convey a word of gratitude for your sterling leadership you have displayed in directing this UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 112 house towards achieving its constitutional mandate.

This applies equally to all other presiding Officers.

In the same vain, we wish to recognise and welcome the leadership of the Chief Whip of the majority party for his work that has been a guide for all of us.
As UDM, we have no doubt that all members of this house, irrespective of their political association, have tried their best in keeping the house focused on the work.

We can only build on this base.

To the backroom staff, that works tirelessly with no complaint, we are extremely thankful for your unwavering support.

You are wonderful in your service to the nation.


As long as there is poverty, unemployment, inequality and corruption, our collective commitment and dedication, we shall always be called upon, to double our efforts against these ills.

Lastly, I wish all members to go back home safely, spend more time with families but have a moment to reflect and make a solemn commitment to redouble our work for the sake of our nation.

A happy festive season as well as a peaceful election season.

I thank you.
I thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES WEDNESDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2018 Page: 113 **NO SOUND DUE TO INTERRUPTION OF POWER SUPPLY ** The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ms N P KONI: The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The HOUSE SINGING: The House adjourned at 13:32.