Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698938066175.pdf (United Kingdom)
The Cross Party Group on Accident Prevention and Safety Awareness Minutes of the Ninth Meeting held on Wednesday 11th March 2015 6.00 pm till 8.00 pm Committee Room 4, Scottish Parliament Meeting dedicated to the memory of John Chinnock OBE 1.

Welcome: Clare Adamson MSP, and Convenor of the group, welcomed everyone present to the ninth meeting of the Cross Party Group on Accident Prevention and Safety Awareness.
A warm welcome was also extended to Malcolm Chisholm, MSP, Co- Convener of the Cross Party Group on Cancer and to George Adam MSP.

Thanks were given to RoSPA for sponsoring the catering for this meeting.

2.

Present and Apologies Ms Adamson reminded everyone present to sign the Sederunt.

See attached list for attendees and apologies.

3. a.
3. a.

Minutes of the Previous Meeting Accuracy Mr Keith MacGillivray requested a date change from 2017 to 2016 within section 7 (Questions and Discussion) to reflect that it will be 2016 when it will become mandatory for sprinkler systems to be fitted into new properties in Wales.

This has now been reflected in the previous minutes.

The Minutes were then agreed as a true record of proceedings and were proposed by Mr Keith MacGillivray and seconded by Mr Grant Taylor.

b.
b.

Matters Arising Ms Adamson informed the Group that Shona Robison, MSP, Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport, has responded to her correspondence regarding fire sprinkler installation in wards designed for elderly care.

As it stands at present it is felt that there is not an immediate issue with current legislation regarding sprinklers in hospitals.

Elizabeth Lumsden, Secretary, will circulate Shona Robison’s response to the group.
(Update: this letter was tabled on the night and hard copies available at the meeting.)

Ms Adamson advised the group that the Annual Return went to the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee on 18th February for approval.

4.

Secretary’s Report Elizabeth Lumsden highlighted several points from the Secretary’s Report.

Membership currently amounts to 159 with new organisations continuing to make enquiries about the group.
Over 50 people attended the RoSPA launch of the evaluation of Scotland’s Home Safety Equipment Scheme.

This event was held in Glasgow on 9th February and opened by Clare Adamson, MSP.

Ms Adamson also took the opportunity to listen to the other speakers talk about what’s next for the Scheme and to chat with the delegates during the workshops.
A wide variety of child safety related issues around home, road and water safety were discussed at RoSPA’s Annual Child Safety Conference held in Glasgow on 17th February.

This offered an excellent networking opportunity and 150 delegates attended to hear the Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs, Paul Wheelhouse, open the event.
There were no questions from the floor regarding the Secretary’s Report and Ms Adamson added as a footnote that she will send on details of the sprinklers for warehouses seminar that took place on February 12th at the Scottish Fire and Rescue Training Centre, Cambuslang.

Ms Adamson also added that the Parliament will welcome the Scottish Fire Sprinkler Coordination Group on 21 May 2015 for their awareness-raising event.

5.
5.

Occupational Safety: presentations Ms Adamson introduced the four speakers and thanked members of IOSH for attending this evening and for the information packs.

Due to time constraints, questions were invited after all four presentations had been delivered.

(i) Mike Cross, HSE (Health & Safety Executive) ‘Update on HSE’s work in Scotland’ Mike Cross is the Health and Safety Executive’s (HSE) Director for Scotland and Northern England.
Mr Cross gave thanks for the invitation to speak this evening, stating it was a great honour.

Regarding the Smith Commission, this could not be discussed in great detail however a steering group and working group have been formed.

Evidence will be gathered in phase 1 and phase 2 will take place after the general election.

HSE is a regulator with the primary functions being to investigate, regulate and to enforce a number of pieces of legislation.
As a regulator, actions can be challenged by judicial review and officers have to work to ‘beyond reasonable doubt’.

What is causing ill health, what is causing accidents?

This is important for deciding where to intervene.

Evidence and intelligence is used to drive programmes.

Another aspect of work is targeted campaigns.

Beware Asbestos being one example, which is a continuation following on from Hidden Killers.

Following the legionella outbreak in Edinburgh, work has also been done here.
Mr Cross also addressed how HSE is organised and covered the role of Inspectors – the overall objective of an inspector is to diagnose how a business is managing risk.

Investigation is approximately 50% of an inspectors work.

It’s also about securing justice for those that have been affected.

HSE is very supportive of other organisations campaigns and other groups i.e.

PHAS and Healthy Working Lives as these organisations all work to try and improve the occupational environment.
Jim Tassel, Chair of IOSH Scotland (Institution of Occupational Safety & (ii) Health): Launch of ‘Think about Health and Safety, Supporting MSPs in their work’ Jim Tassell is the Chair of IOSH Scotland and the Vice-Chair of the West of Scotland Branch of IOSH.

Mr Tassell gave thanks for the invitation to speak and added that IOSH Scotland came together to represent the Branches, Districts and Specialist Groups across Scotland.
Mr Tassell spoke about the guide ‘Think about Health and Safety, Supporting MSPs in their work’, giving credit to the team in Edinburgh – Karen McDonnell and Helen Pearson and also the in-house safety team in Holyrood.
The guide is available at http://www.iosh.co.uk/~/media/Documents/Books%20and%20resources/Guidance% 20and%20tools/Think%20about%20health%20and%20safety_Scotland.ashx Health and Safety is about the people and the ‘Think about Health and Safety’ guide is also valid for all the people round the table.

Health and Safety is not rocket science, its mostly applied common sense.

Many aspects need to be considered when addressing health and safety.
For example, when addressing the management of safety one has to think about the relevant documentation including safety policies and risk assessments.

While out and about, consideration needs to be given to personal safety.

Not only thinking about physical violence, weight needs to be given to verbal abuse, threats and confrontational behaviour.

Driving and road behaviour also need to be addressed.

As a safety professional, Mr Tassell believes there is never a daft question on health and safety.
If someone does not know, or does not understand, then a clear and simple explanation is required and there are many organisations that can be approached for information.

Mr Tassell finished by thanking the group for their attention and for the representation present on the evening from different IOSH branches.

An invitation was extended to the group to attend IOSH meetings.
(iii) Professor Andrew Watterson, Stirling University: ‘Why the UK stalled in occupational cancer prevention, where we stand now internationally and what can Scotland do about it?’ Professor Andrew Watterson is Head of the Occupational and Environmental Health Research Group and Director of the Centre for Public Health and Population Health Research at Stirling University.
Professor Watterson thanked the group for the invite to speak and delivered a presentation on occupational cancer adding that WHO (World Health Organisation) estimates that globally 7-19% of all cancers are due to environmental exposures.

15,764 people died from cancer in Scotland in 2013.

If 10% of cancer deaths are work-related, an estimated 1576 deaths are work-related = cost to Scotland of £3,862,200,000 (estimate of £2.45 million per cancer death DEFRA 2006).
The 10% figure is probably an under-estimate.

EU figures show over 13% of cancer deaths in males are work-related.

Occupational cancer was globally one of the biggest if not the biggest cause workplace deaths.

It hit the most vulnerable socio-economic groups hardest so is socially unjust.

Interventions to prevent occupational cancers were therefore critical for public health and also economic reasons.

Many of the carcinogens had been identified decades ago but action had not been taken.
The issue of occupational cancer prevention in Scotland has also been raised numerous times in Scotland.

Our research group in 2006 pointed out that Scottish occupational cancer deaths killed more people per year than road traffic fatalities, murders and suicides combined yet the topic was neglected.

Other countries and areas recognised far more occupational cancers than in the UK.
For example in Alberta 14 types of occupational cancer were recognised for fire- fighters but in the UK none of these were listed as a prescribed industrial disease.

The HSE identified 10 occupational carcinogens causing a range of cancers in an exposed population of millions of workers.

Yet the UK DWP prescribed only a handful relating to asbestos and silica.

It is estimated that 1 in 5 workers are exposed to carcinogens and exposure must be reduced.
Ms Adamson stated that a lot of women in Ravenscraig, North Lanarkshire, were exposed to chemicals while cleaning their husband’s overalls when the area housed Ravenscraig Steel Works and would they be included in these figures?

Professor Watterson stated they would not be included in these figures.

The UK is lagging behind when looking at the international picture for example in Canada, the USA and France.

There is good research coming from HSE but action is needed now.
New policies and practice not necessarily new laws are needed.

Professor Watterson then covered some Scottish specific solutions to this issue.

A good example is to look at the Massachusetts Toxics Use Reduction Act 1989 which offers technical advice, information and support to employers to cut both carcinogen numbers and carcinogen quantities used in the workplace.

His presentation was concluded by stating there are solutions with some of them easy in some settings.
(iv) Karen McDonnell, IOSH President-elect ‘No Time to Lose’ occupational cancer campaign.

Karen McDonnell is an Executive member of IOSH Edinburgh Branch and IOSH President Elect, set to become President in November 2015.

Karen is also Head of RoSPA in Scotland.


Mrs McDonnell thanked Ms Adamson for her introduction and for the opportunity to bring the IOSH campaign ‘No Time to Lose’ before the group, adding that based on the content of previous presentations, there is definitely no time to lose with regards to prevention of occupational cancers.

‘No Time to Lose’ is an essential IOSH campaign built around figures from Lesley Rushton which looked at ‘the burden of occupational cancer in Great Britain’.
The findings of this research indicated that 8,000 deaths a year are caused by exposure to carcinogens in the work place.

Just under half of these deaths were put down to occupational cancer in the construction industry.

‘No Time to Lose’ is primarily to raise awareness and at present focuses on a top five of work related carcinogens – asbestos, silica, diesel engine exhaust, shift work, and solar radiation.
The campaign is essentially looking for individuals and organisations to get involved by providing support to the campaign.

In return a supporter pack is provided enabling the dissemination of information within the workplace and the wider supply chain.

More than 60 organisations and companies have already signed up.

The campaign recognises that this is a time for action and encourages a number of points including – Government action, Regulator action, joint professional action and industry action.
The campaign website has a lot of useful information, including free practical resources that can be ordered or downloaded, an expert panel can be consulted for advice and a national action plan can be accessed.

Mrs McDonnell finished by thanking the group for listening and urged everyone to engage with the campaign and to take away a campaign pack.

All speaker presentations can be accessed via http://www.rospa.com/About/Around- the-UK/Scotland/Cross-Party-Group/ 6.
Questions and Discussion Ms Adamson gave thanks to all speakers and reminded everyone that the presentations can be access via the RoSPA website.

It was also proposed that hard copies of speaker’s presentations would be made available at future meetings.

The floor was then opened to questions.

Keith MacGillivray stated his interest in the statistics surrounding occupational health and disease in Canada and asked Andrew Watterson why this data is not transferable for use in similar cases in the UK?
Professor Watterson stated that it should be but there is an industrial advisory committee and they look at the same evidence as the Canadians and Americans.

However, to get a disease prescribed, there has to be double the relative risk of getting a cancer than in the general population.

Professor Watterson then went on to say that we would be helped if Health and Safety Executive re-established their occupational health division.
More resources are needed to go into this and there has to be a commitment from a range of bodies.

Andy Cathro commented that it was good to hear from Mike Cross and the measures that are being used by HSE.

He went on to ask Mr Cross if he thought the fee for intervention cost recovery scheme is effective?

Mr Cross responded that it is designed to put the burden of cost on those who break the law, rather than on to the cost to the State and that incentivising is a good thing.
Mr Cross concluded that fee for intervention is a relatively new scheme and as yet, there has been no research in to incentivisation.

He thinks research will be done further down the line to see if it makes a difference to performance.

Thomas Gorman asked the panel members – in view of the evidence that shale oil caused cancers in the workforce as far back as 1875 in Scotland; is a moratorium on fracking as positive as it appears compared to an outright ban?
Professor Watterson stated that we should be trying to prevent workplace related cancers.

An observation has been made that unconventional gas extraction could be the asbestos of tomorrow.

Precautionary principles should apply.

We still won’t get information through – we need public engagement and I don’t think the direction that we are going in is the right one.

Russell Brownlie notified the group of the death of John Chinnock OBE.
Mr Chinnock was IOSH’s longest standing member and oldest surviving former president.

Mr Chinnock, who died on 13 February aged 93, had been a member of the Institution since 1950 and served as its president between 1972 and 1974.

During his time as president, Mr Chinnock was part of the presidential committee which helped to shape not only IOSH’s future, but that of occupational safety and health throughout the UK.
Mr Brownlie stated this meeting should be a tribute to Mr Chinnock and he dedicates his continued involvement in the field of safety to his memory.

Robert Atkinson commented that the IOSH campaign is good, and identified issues must continue to be supported.

There is a lot of focus on IOSH members but he feels representation is missing from employers.

Effort needs to be focused on getting the employers bodies along to make a difference.

The actual sectors need to agree to commit.


Ms Adamson added that she will take the information away from this evening and discuss with colleagues on how this can be taken forward.

Ian Tasker added that Stuart McMillan, MSP, has taken forward a member’s bill – The Recovery of Medical Costs for Asbestos Diseases (Scotland) Bill.

Given some of the costs that Andrew was talking about, maybe it is time we looked at this.

Preventative work needs to take place so people are not exposed in the first place.
Ms Lumsden will circulate the aforementioned member’s bill.

(Now attached http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/Bills/85164.aspx ) Ms Adamson added that a young young film maker has been making a film on growing up in Ravenscraig and getting anecdotal evidence from those that lived and worked there.

What was interesting after a days’ work was that showers could be used by employers but not sub contractors.
A comment was made that we see the modern day equivalent of this very often, such as agency workers and zero hour contract workers and we still see the issues that arise from it.

Kathy Jenkins added that the Netherlands has passed a new law that strengthens the responsibilities for all work related activities from the top to the bottom of the supply chain.

Ms Adamson commented there are a number of things to think about from this evening and we must think about how to take them forward.

7.
7.

Headlines (Newsletter) This newsletter was distributed and Ms Lumsden added that the Scottish Government will support Child Accident Prevention Trust’s child safety week this year, ensuring that information packs will be made available to those that request them.

This year, child safety week is from 1-7 June 2015.

Ms Adamson brought the meeting to a close and added that she looks forward to seeing everyone in June where the focus of the meeting is child safety.

8.
8.

Dates of future meetings 2 June (note change of date) – Child Safety 18 November – Road Safety 20 Jan 2016 – AGM and Reflection Suggestions for speakers and topics for future meetings are welcome.
Attendees 11th March 2015 George Adam MSP Moira Adams Clare Adamson, MSP Robert Atkinson Michael Avril Jean Brown Russell Brownlie Andrew Cathro Malcolm Chisholm, MSP Douglas Connell Mike Cross Jim Dorman Bryan Finlay Andrew Fraser Thomas Gorman Sheena Harper Iain Henderson Andy Howat Kathy Jenkins Peter Kirwan Keith MacGillivray Lisa McCann Jim McCourt Karen McDonnell Joe McGinley Neil McNicol Glenys Neville Helen Pearson Ian Tasker Jim Tassell Grant Taylor Neil Wallace Andrew Watterson Apologies Colin Baird Christopher Bell Claire Burnett John Cairns Frank Creighton Jacqui Doig Kat Furlong Dr Neil Hamlet Kenny MacDermid Laura McDermott Mark McDonald, MSP Irene Miller Challenge Breast Cancer Scotland Convenor Healthy Working Lives RNLI Aberlour Child Care Safety Advocate College Scotland IOSH Scotland HSE St Andrews First Aid RLSS UK Falkirk Council Occupational and Environmental Health and Safety Research Group, Stirling University RLSS UK IOSH Scotland NHS Dumfries and Galloway Scottish Hazards Neighbourhood Watch Scotland Sprinkler Co-ordination Group (Scotland) REHIS IAERC Inverclyde RoSPA Scotland NHS Dumfries and Galloway John McNicol Electrical Engineers IOSH Scotland IOSH Scotland STUC IOSH Scotland SGN IOSH Scotland Stirling University SCOTS Trading Standards RCPCH Safety Groups UK Comhairle Nan Eilean Siar SCSN Dynamic Ad Group NHS Fife RLSS Dundee City Council NHS Health Scotland Cherie Morgan Jill Mulholland Lesley Nish Carol Raeburn Drew Rankine Brian Topping Caroline Wilson Gill Wylie In attendance Elizabeth Lumsden Jennifer Henderson Kate Barclay Jamie Super Play Scotland Transport Scotland NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde RNLI Safety Advocate Safety Advocate The Risk Factory Scottish Government Secretary RoSPA Office of Clare Adamson, MSP Office of Clare Adamson, MSP