Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698747309547.pdf (Malaysia)
Volume I No.

6 Friday 11th December, 1959 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DEWAN NEGARA (SENATE) OFFICIAL REPORT CONTENTS Bills- The Common Gamina Houses (Amenclment) Bill [Col. 207) The Betting (Amendment) Bill [Col. 231] The Housing Trust (Amendment) Bill [CoL 232] The Oaths and Aftirmations (Amenclment) Bill [Col. 233] Motions- Standin1 Orders, Dewan Negara (Paper No.

DN.
DN.

1, 1959) 233] [Col. _ Committee of Selection [CoL 242] PRINTED AT mE OOVEIUllltlENT PRESS BY I,• T. PUDOB ltUALA LUMPUR GOVl!JINMENT PRINTER 1960 FEDERATION OF MALAYA DEWAN NEGARA (SENATE) Official Report First Session of the First Dewan Negara The Senate met at 9.30 o'clock a.m. PRESENTi The Honourable Mr. President (DATO' HA.JI ABDUL RAHMAN BIN MOHAMED YASIN, S.P.M.J., P.I.S.).

.. .. .. .. .. the Minister of Justice (TUN LEONG YBW KOH, S.M.N.)

(Appqinted).

J.M.N.

(Appointed).


TUAN HA.JI ABBAS BIN HA.JI MOHAMED (Trengganu).

ENCHE' ABDUL HAMID BIN MAHMuo, ENCHE' AHMAD BIN SAID, A.M.N.

(Perak).

ENCHE' A. M. ABU BAKAR, J.M.N.

(Appointed).

ENCHE' ABDUL WAHAB BIN IDus, P.J.K.

(Negri Sembilan).

ENCHE' AMALUDDIN BIN DARUS (Kelantan).

MR. CHAN KWONG HoN, A.M.N., MR. CHEAH SENG K.mM, J.P. (Penang).

DATO' DR. CHEAH TOON LoK, J.M.N., J.P. (Selangor).

J.P., Dato' Maha Kurnia (Appointed).

J.P. (Appointed).

ABDUL JALIL (Trengganu).


MR. CHOO KOK LEONG (Appointed).

MR. J. E. s. CRAWFORD, J.M.N., ENCHE' DA ENCHE' HASHIM BIN AWANG, J.P. (Penang}.

MR. KOH KIM LENG (Malacca) DAro''LEE FOONG YEE, J.M.N., MR. LIM HEE HONG, A.M.N.

(Appointed).

ENCHE' MOHD.

SAL LEH BIN MOHAMED AluFF (Malacca).

ENC HE' MOHD.

ZAHIR BIN HA.JI lsMAIL (Kedah).

ENGKU MUHSEIN BIN ABDUL KADIR, 1.M.N., P.J.K.

P.P.T .. J.P. (Negri Sembilan).

• (Appointed).


MR. ATm NAHAPPAN (Appointed) MR. S. P. S. NATHAN (Appointed).

ENCHE' NIK HASSAN BIN HAJJ NIK Y AHYA, J.M.N.

• (Appointed).

TuAN HA.JI NIK MOHD.

ADBEB BIN HA.JI NIK MOHAMED (Kelantan).

TOK PANGKU PANDAK HAMID BIN, PuTEH JALI, P.J.K .

(Appointed).

RAJA RASTAM SHAHROME BIN RAJA SAID TAUPHY (Selangor).

DATO' SHEIKH A.Bu BAKAR BIN y AHYA, D.P.M.J., P .. I.s .• J.P. (Johore).
· 207 11 DECEMBER 1959 208 The Honourable DATO' G. SHELLEY, P.M.N., J.P. (Appointed) .

., TUAN SYED AHMAD .BIN SYED MAHMUD SHAHABUDIN, 1.M.N.

(Kedth).

· , .

.. .. " TUAN SYED BAHAL DIN BIN SYED NoH, J.P. (Perlis) .

MR. T. H. TAN, J.M.N.

(Appointed).

DATO' E. E. c. THURAISINGHAM, D.P.M.1., MR. S. 0.

K. UBAIDULLA (Appointed ) .

ENCHE' WAN AHMAD BIN WAN DAUD, PJ.K., J.P. (Perlis).

DATO' WAN lBRAm:M llIN WAN TANJONG, 1.M.N., J J.P� (Appointed).
.P., Orang Kaya Indera Maharajah MR. YAP KHEN VAN, A.M.N., MR. YEOH KIAN TEIK (Perak).

Purba Jelai (Pahang).

1.P.

(Pahang).

The Honourable the Minister of Finance, MR. TAN SIEW SIN, J.P.

IN ATTENDANCE: •• the Minister of the Interior: DATO' SULmMAN BIN DATO' HA1I ABDUL RAHMAN, P;M.N.

the Minister of Health and Social Welfare, DATO' ONG YOKE LIN, P.M.N.

PRAYERS (Mr. President There is a precedent for" thls Bill in in the Chair) 1949, · under which the Court is Sectio1,1 25 of the Societies Ordinance.
BILLS allowed to refer to works of secret mE COMMON GAMING HOUSES societies.

BU..L (AMENDMENT) Mr. Yeoh Ki8D Teik: Mr. President, Second Readiua .

Sir, before thls Bill is passed, urge the Minister 1b e Minister.

ot Justice (Tun Leona sider approving concerned to recon- a text­ Yew Koh): Sir.

I beg to move that a book by a living author.

Although Bill intituled under the Societies Common Gaming Houses Ordiruµice, Ordinance, 1953".

be read a second time.


should not merely follow a precedent "an Act to ame nd the there is a precedent 1949, I feel that this House in Parliament I would :lngku Muhsein: I beg to second th� but should .

consider this matter on its · motion.

merits.

r The Minister.

ol Finance (Mr. T• Now, section 2 of the amendment illegal in cases of tained in this book.

Sir, as an advocate Thls Bill will permit the Court and solicitor, whether to con­ is experienced in obtaining adopt .
or to follow the authority Siew Sin): Mr. President, Sir, some gives the Court a discretion difficulty expert evidence gaming.

to refer to a book entitled Games in Malaya" by Mr. C. T. Dobree judicial and to such other books or articles gaming as the Court may consider on the subject.

authoritative by Mr. Dobree was recently published, and he is regarded as an authority in this country.
gambling in· the Federation I strongly uphold the "Gambling freed'om of the Court to exercise its If you say that thls Sir.

the Common Gaming The book Houses Ordinance to provide for official recognition having served because the clause is permissive.

If.

on on The Court is not going to be bound, on clause is merely permissive-why, ·then amend discretion.

of this textbook?

of Malaya .

Police the other hand, this is not permissive, -Force from 1928 to 1955 when he then we are attempting to .
fetter the retired with the rank of Assistant Commissioner Societies Department, Police Head-therein culties quarters.

of Police in the Secret in the explanatory exercise of the Court's it says ..

In view of the diffi­ attending the giving of expert discretion.

And contained statement 209 11 DECEMBER 1959 210 evidence in the matter it is proposed" to amend this Ordi­ nance.

of illegal gaming.

and then the revised editio n of this textbook will be used later and so on ad infinitum.
Thus there is no end as to what type of textbook to be used as evidence in a Court of Law.

Sir, the law is the law, and if the any person of the law it Police seeks to prosecute for any contravention must prove its case, and I strongly oppose any attempt to assist the Police in proving the case against any subject of the Federation.

There is no necessity to give official recognition to any text­ book.
H we follow the same precedent, the case may arise in the future when we will again be asked to recognise another textbook and it goes on and on and on; and though we do not now in the end fetter the Court's discretion, we will fetter the Court's discretion.

Therefore, Honourable matter.

Thank you.

this Minister to reconsider Mr. President, Sir, I urge the is a very I do not think that this good Bill to bring before the House for adoption.

I think we must know what type of textbook is brought to us.
As laymen· we must see whether this textbook is correct or not.

Now, we are going to pass a book which we do not know.

I have not seen the text­ book and, I believe.

Mem­ Honourable bers have not seen the book at all.

To ask us to pass a book we have not seen.

I, merely as a scientific not agree to it.

Thank you.

man, will Dato' E. E. C. 'lburaisinpam: Mr. Sir, I most humbly apologise President.
for not having been in time to hear the interesting support the Honourable and learned Mr. Yeoh Kian Teck's protest against this Bill.

This is an unusual Bill.

debate.

I wholeheartedly Mr. J. E. S. Crawford: Mr. Pre­ and learned Sir, I rise to say that I cannot sident, agree with my Honourable friend Mr. Yeoh Kian Teik, �use I cannot quite see the reason put for­ ward-that the author is still alive.

H his book is the best book on the subject.


do· we have to wait until unfortunately the gentleman his book?

is dead before we adopt Dato' Dr. Cheab Toon Lok: Mr. Pre­ ourselves, Sir, I wish to support the very sident, strong arguments of my Honourable friend opposite.

I am going to give you the point of view of a layman.

The first is that we have committed whether we like it or not, to a type of royalty which we have got to pay for the use of this textbook.
The second point is that we are going to change the law to suit the evidence that is deduced in the textbook, according to the explanatory statement.

The third point is that you have given a chance to the gambler to change the type of gambling, the type of games, so that these types of games do not come within the purview of that textbook.
So those points arise which will at once tell you that this textbook is abso· lutely useless, because the textbook is supposed to give good evidence regarding to change the law to suit the eyidence in the textbook, you will have to produce another, this textbook is no longer necessary; gaming.

Then, if you want textbook and say that himself, The Honourable Leader of the House, having been a leading lawyer of great distinction I do· not think.
would have come across such Ie&is lation in this country or anywhere.

The facts have been taken up very well by the last speaker.

I, myself, wish to ask, in.

respect of the Government's claim, that "In view of the difficulties attending dence"-what are the difficulties getting and giving expert evidence?

really do not know.

There had been many cases in which expert evidence secured.

had been given and conviction the giving of expert evi­ of I to the Secondly.
the Government by intro­ ducing this Bill confesses to its inability to make out a case according law.

which is, that in matters of this kind an expert must be called and an opportunity given to the accused to cross-examine after the learned Magistrate or Judge decides on the merits of the prosecu­ tion.

F�ally, there is a conviction an acqwttal.


· this expert; and there­ or Textbooks are referred to by lawyers but you do not and judges everywhere, find any book being singled out and brought to the notice of the Judge by Usually, a book sanction.

legislative after it gets the status of an authority 211 11 DECEMBER 1959 212 has been in use in the Courts for many years, after the book has been reviewed by learned Judges of the High Courts and Court of Appeal.
Thereafter it has what we call judicial sanction.

There is no judicial for this book.

sanction made to a particular book-and a copy of that book has not been given to every member in this House.

It is a very important matter as, if a ruling is not given now, in future such inci­ dents may recur.

I think the Govern· ment has made a mistake in not presenting us with copies of the book to which reference has been made.

to be authoritative is that to refer relates.


That to any to the book this reference In any· pr:osecution you may refer Sir, my humble suggestion this Bill be passed-if the law officers think fit-by deleting to Mr. Dobree•s book.

under this Ordinance, to any published book or article on the subject of unlawful gambling which the Court may consider on the subject to which it will give ample opportunity learned Magistrate of Mr. Dobree.

The lawyers will comment on it; if there is an appeal.
the Judges will comment on it; and if it goes further the Lords of Appeal in England will comment on it; thereby gathering momentum for this book, which is a very good analysis of the gambling that is going on here; thus judicial sanction will gradually, by experience, to this book.

I think that it is very unfair on the accused to drop this on him.

His area of defence is lessened.


He cannot cross-examine the prose· cution; he has to bring another expert himself to contradict those words of Mr. Dobree's book which is a very expensive matter.

by discussion, be granted Mr. Athi Nabappan: Mr. President, and the That is the power of the notice authori­ I rise in support of my Honourable friend Dato• Thuraisingham first speaker, the Honourable Mr. Yeoh Kian Teik.
Sir, the Court has an inherent power to take judicial of recognised and established ties for the purpose of establishing evidence.

Court, which is inherent.

Under that power the judge or magistrate to any established textbooks to make up his mind; so there is nothing to · prevent the magistrate to refer to this book or any other book if he wants to consult.

particular book for parliamentary approval is a very rare thing.
To my knowledge as a lawyer, I have not come across any instances where Parliament has given its approval or r:ecognition for a particular can refer in order Singling out a book.

The law in this counti:y as in the United Kingdom is that the accused should be given every chance and to defend his case, every opportunity and no presumption-either in this manner by legislation or in any other manner-that he is guilty is permitted before he opens his case.
I earnestly hope that my view is accepted, and this view is supported counsels in this town from whom I have enquired.

I hope that this refe· rence to Mr. Dobree and his book will be deleted and the Bill passed for what it is worth.

by many learned Mr. S. O. K. Ubaidulla: Mr. Pre· sident, Sir, I warit to raise a point of order.

I would like to have a ruling from you, because similar incidents may happen again.
Sir, I would like to know whether it is quite in order for the Government to present a Bill where reference is Sir, as it has been pointed out, this It is a of this amendment is not imperative.

permissive cfause which says "the Court may refer to this book or any other book."

If that is so, the Court is not bound to consult this book; the Court may consider any other book as well.

If that is the intention House, then there is no need at all to In that single out this particular book.
context the amendment that has been proposed by the Honourable Dato' Thuraisingham pose.

If it is the intention ment that there is no recognised authority in Malaya in respect of this matter and that some kind of particular recognition should be given to this book so that the Courts may freely use it, Sir, that would be an extra­ ordinary procedure because a book has to gain its authoritative status in course of time by being constantly· used in Courts.

Then only it reaches that status.


I do not know what degree of authoritative status this book enjoys would serve the pur­ of Parlia� 213 11 DECEMBER 1959 .

214 in Malaya, and it is a bit out of the way that Parliament should recognise this book and give its approval for its adoption in Court.

Therefore, considering the inherent power of the Court, the amendment that has been proposed would be adequate for the purpose of resorting to textbooks in the matter of games.

I think, Sir.
I think, Sir.

Dato' Suleiman: Mr. President.

(Laughter).

has come it is indeed very interesting to hear so many members of the legal profession speaking in this august Chamber this morning on a subject that relates very much to their own interests.

This is one subject which before this august Chamber in which all these legal practitioners have had to speak without being paid anything for it.
Except for the Honourable Dato' I believe the other two Thuraisingham, Members cannot claim to have much practice of law in this country.

I do not mean to say.

by that.

that they are not very good legal practitioners.

They may be good.

But what I say is that they may not have had enough practice in this type of cases, especially cases under the Common Ga.ming Houses Ordinance.

I· can assure this august Chamber that if they get this type of cases.

they are cases.
they are cases.

very, very profitable therefore I will to the precedence of how Let me.

therefore, reply to the first Honourable Member.

I will not go according they got up to make their speeches.

but let me first reply to the Honourable Mr. Ubaidulla-since Mr. Ubaidulla is not a legal practitioner.

give him the precedence in my reply.

Now.

Sir.

Mr. Ubaidulla asked that books be supplied House.


I would have put the question this way to this House, if I were in his place: could any of the legal practi­ tioners.

House.

supply him any information, has anyone of them got a copy of this book in this House?

I am sure none of them has� as Members of this august to Members of this or.

Mr. S. O. K. Ubai dulla: That is all the more reason why we should be supplied with a copy.

Dato' Suleiman: The fact is that none of them has got a copy of this book.
I would say this to Mr. Ubaidulla: that from the Government side there are the legal draftsman from the Chambers, and the Attorney-General's and the others, the Attorney-Genera), Judges.

the Chief Justice and so on, to whom this has been referred to, and I think I can safely say that they have no objection helping the accused, that they should have this book.
It is not the practice to give a copy of a book to any of the Honourable Members here, because if we do that, then when we try· to ban certain publications i t would b e very difficult indeed to supply them with such.publications (Laughter).

Now.

Sir.

let me come to the member of of the Honourable to give evidence in Dato' and the others of this Honourable and venerable the legal profession who sits in this august House.

the Honourable Dato' Dato' Thuraisingham.


The Honourable says that Government or the Police admits its inability this type of cases and then continues to say that it is unfair to the accused.
nor number, But, Sir, neither ingenuity, nor quality of members of the Police Force would be able to detect evidence and bring it to Court to get a convic· tion when there are legal practitioners of the standing Thuraisingham august House who would be defending the very accused persons whom the law, whom the prosecution, to Court and alleged that they have committed an offence under the Com­ mon Gaming Houses Ordinance.

The accused, Sir.
The accused, Sir.

from m y very short experience on the law bench, and from my very short experience as a legal practitioner-during that short period I had many cases under the Common Gaming Houses Ordinance-I found them very interesting.

very easy to get acquittal.

It ex­ found after some considerable perience of Police prosecutions, that i t i s not easy t o convict.
Yet-here I am sure m y very, very old friend, the Honourable Dato' and Thuraisingham the Honourable Mr. Ubaidulla and these two Honourable House and the other Honourable Mem­ bers "Of this House will agree with me­ gaming is rampant in this country.

very profitable, has been Members of this brought 215 11 DECEMBER 1959 216 because by their nature the Malays.

the C.Cylonese the Chinese, the Indians, (Laughter).

the Europeans-I am sure my Honourable friend Mr. Crawford.
will agree with me too (Laughter)­ that it is in our nature to gamble.

Now.

Sir, what we are trying to do is to limit the extent of gambling.

for, as it is very difficult to try to get evidence legal practitioners until he is proved to be guilty.
there-and when members of the church turn tipsters, indeed, when offences had been declared illegal, that will convince the Court, our law stands, a man is presumed innocent That is the reason why so many flourishing become Members of this august House, as you have seen here this morning.

and they cannot but have flourishing practice and successful appearance, see here this morning from their portly appearances (my Honourable friend Dato' Thuraisingham.
Mr. Athi Nahappan and the Honour­ able Mr. Yeoh Kian Telle) how successful they are.

the Honourable as you can Now, Sir, what these amendments try to do is in the �xplanatory of the Bill: Statement "In view of the difficulties attending the evidence in the matter of iivinJ of expert illegal gaming, it is proposed • • .

• ."
• ."

expected that Now, I would have these legal practitioners with consider­ able experience would have got up and said : "This is a wonderful thing that OoverDJllent has done, and we will how to beat our ingenuity now exercise what has been written by the author of this book."

The Honourable Mr. Nahappan said, "Why should it be necessary to bring forward this amend· authorjty ment and give this book the when judges have got an inherent discretion to refer".

But, Sir.
But, Sir.

no book can become an authority unless it has been· referred to in a ·decided case and had through constant reference be­ come an authority.

That.

Sir, I contend, is one of the reasons.

I have left the practice of law so long that I am not able to produce many other reasons.

am sure if my Honourable friend Dato' Thuraisingham to speak on the Government side.

he would speak indeed very powerfully and eloquently, said that lawyers, legal practitioners, can speak on either side and on .
both sides (Laughter).

I and learned for it has often been would like Now.

under the Common Gaming that Members are not sufficient.

this type of cases, and Therefore we must enforce Houses Ordinance only certain types of gaming are indictable, · although most types of gambling in this country are illegal.

it, and to enforce it it has been found.

after considerable experience.

presumptions are required, and that when presumptions then, when there are authors who have .
or considerable experience in tackling, in investigating have written a book on a particular subject, surely-Honourable of this House will agree with me-it is to the credit of the GoverDJll ent to suggest that such.

a book should be used in the Court.

Sir.

I have read quite a lot of books.

written by Henry Cecil on legal humour.

Henry Cecil is the author of "Brothers.


in Law" and many other books, and in one of those books-the title of which I cannot remember this morning-a High Court Judge found that due to personal and family reasons.

he wanted to raise £20,000.

As a Judge, Sir, he had no other means of raising this money and he thought that the only way to get this money was to go betting at the race course.
Now, just before he went, he met a very close friend who told him of a very good tipster, and he followed this tipster.

He won.

up to £10,000, and he had not got the other £10,000 yet But before he got that other £10,000, he found that the tipster-a man who did not gainble on very high principle-was member of the church.

I believe he was-I may be mistaken about his least, I think, he was in charge title-at of a small church......:.something like · a rector, so the Judge was very surprised indeed.
So, you see.

Sir, when Judges go to the race course-of course, it is from my point of very commendable view and it is quite legal to gamble actually a This morning.

the Honourable bers of.

the legal profession speak on the other side (Laughter).

Mem­ chose to 217 11 DECEMBER 1959 218 But what astounded me is this: th�y haven't made a very good caSe on the other side and they haven't been very eloquent.
this House that if they had spoken on the other side, everyone of them would have made a very eloquent speech.

That alone is sufficient to show that we need this amendment.

I therefore can assure before its acquisition.

in every case it will prove invaluable."

As a reference book • One Honourable Member stated that we are committed to a royalty on this textbook.

That is not so.

In fact, I think this point is quite irrelevant.


He also made the point that gamblers may vary their gambling games as a result of this textbook being made authoritative for this purpose.

If .

that were to happen, Sir, then this textbook will obviously longer apply, and ground alone will fall to the gro,und.

objections on that no Mr. Tan Siew Sin: Mr. President.
Sir, I am neither a lawyer nor am I an expert on illegal gaming, but I am told that the position is not as simple as those who have opposed this amendment Bill have tried to make it out to be.

In the first place.

it is necessary, I am told, in cases of this nature for the expert witness to be a real expert in the particular game in which he is giving evidence.

Now, I have got the book before me, and if you look through· you detailed descnpt1ons-of something like 100 games.

.

.

will fii;td.
.

.

will fii;td.

descriptions-very this 150-page book .

we work.

It does not say that the He further made the point that do not know anything about the book.

This is not a secret textbook­ and can it is on sale, it is published by anybody who is pre­ be obtained pared to pay the price.

I should emphasise that Section· 2 is merely permissive.
Court must regard this book as an authoritative book-what it says is that the Court may refer to this book, and the reason why Mr. Dobree's name has been specifically mentioned is that it is a rule of evidence, I am told, that no reference may be made to a living author, and in order that this book may be regarded by the Courts as an authoritative reference must be made to it specifi· cally in legislation.
either to Mr. Dobree or to his book were to be deleted from the legislation, it would mean that the Courts and the Police would not be able to refer to this book at all, and, as I have already tried to point out, without this book it would be extremely difficult for the Government to prosecute successfully for the simple reason that it does not have enougn detective sergeants or who would be enotigh police officers e:1tpert in the hundreds-literally hundreds-of gaming cases which are being brought before the Courts in this country in the course of a year.
to oppose this Any attempt.

therefore, Bill is in effect an attempt to obstruct the Police in its work of detecting and punishing gaming, and b� the same token an attempt really to aid and abet illegal gaming in this country.

Therefore, I commend this Bill.

.

.

.

If any reference illegal Dato' Thuraisinpam: Price?

Mr. Tan Siew Sin: That is irrelevant It is apparent that if the Government I think Honourable even on one ground alone.
is to be able to prosecute successfully in such cases, the Police Force have to find expert witnesses in something like 1� games, and that is not so easy.

I !

'eheve that in the past, Sir, evidence in such cases was normally given by detective sergeants.

Members will agree that this is not desirable.

and that is that in order to become an Police will have to make the expert the de�tive sergeant take part in illegal gamm g .
before the Court will consider him an expert; and obviously not desirable from any point of view.

This book has been highly comme nded by a former President of the Sessions Court.

In his Foreword, he writes as follows: that is · "It has been a great privilege and of great interest to me to be permitted to read Mr. Dobree's book in its manuscript form.

For the Police and the Courts, this book will fill a long-needed gap.
The policeman will find that it gives him just this informa­ tion which he has never been able to find elsewhere.

Every magistrate, a copy of this book, will wonder how he managed to try any cases under the Common Gaming Houses and Betting Ordinances when he obtains 219 11 DECEMBER 1959 220 Mr. Yeoh Kian Teik: Mr. President, (Mr. President in the Chair) I. rise on a point of order : Is the Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Honourable trying to impute?

Bill.
Bill.

Minister · Mr. Tan Siew Sin: I am not trying Clause 2- I am just trying Dato' E. E. C. Tburaisingham: Mr. to impute anything.

to state the facts of the case, Sir, I wish to move an think it is for this· House to judge.

amendment, namely, I therefore.

this House, and I hope it will get the "to the book 'Gambling Games in M alaya' support ·which it deserves.

Sir, commend this Bill to 2 (a) the words: and I President, by C. T. Dobree and" that in Clause · h th · relate.
',· nance, the Court may refer, for the purposes in the Courts and e to rep Y to e statement Now, if this Bill is passed, it will Tun Leong Yew Koh: Mr. President, wo and the word 'other' following the words 'to any' be deleted.
The amended sub-section will then read as follows : I uld lik 1 th of my learned scientist friend the Honourable Dato' Dr. Cheah Toon Lok� He said that this Bill, if passed, '(2) In any prosecution under this Ordi- will bl bl ena - e gain ers to c ange etr of evidence, to any published books or games.

Sir, I don't think that will articles on the subject of unlawful gaming happen.

You take the example of which the Court may consider to be of "chap�ji-kee".
Hundreds of cases have authority on the subject to which they been prosecuted successfully prosecuted, still continue to play "chap-ji-kee" they don't vary the game at all.

and".

and yet people I do not wish to repeat what I have - said before except to say that the Minister has not replied except to reiterate that the Government finds it difficult to get expert evidence.

tremendous expense in and it will also help the The Honourable Mr. Tan Siew Sin save the Police· getting experts, defence.
If you want to prove what is yesterday started his speech by saying and ·every time you that he was very honoured to be here "chap-ji-kee" prosecute such a ca se, you have to in the Senate and to address this House, pr oduce experts, and look at the that he felt it a great privilege amount it will cost the Police and the here.

I am glad that he feels that defence.

The defence will say it is not a great privilege "chap-ji-kee" whether it is or is not-Dobree's book.
honoured-continuously his presence and his advice to us.

But to impute motives to the lawyers in this there is no precedent, there ate two Assembly certainly is hardly in keeping instances in the Societies Ordinance, .

with the words he uttered.

I don't think 1949: the "Hung Society" is quoted we have any more to hear.

We have as an authority, only the legal sense to appreciate what book "Thian Ti Hwui", another book great harm will be done in the dispen­ quoted in that Ordinance.
if any old book, which sing of justice, and this book will prove here, and we are in turn greatly to come it is and honour to come With regard to the statement that as is also G. Schlegel's honoured by With regard to the argument of my we haven't seen but is highly com­ Honourable and learned friend Mi.

mented on· by somebody who writes Yeoh Kian Teik, he said that if this a foreword-anyone who writes a law is passed, the discretion of the foreword to a book does not condemn Court will be fettered.
Now, how can it- is made an authority.

you fetter the discretion by giving extra discretion of the Court go on that sort of arguments at all.

to the Court?

This is fundamental to justice and we Lawyers don't Question put, and agreed to.

a second.

time Bill accordingly read and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

.

House immediately resolved itself chance to look at the book, let the into a Committee on the Bill.

judges have a chance to comment on it, should not allow it to go unchallenged.
Why such a hurry at all?

Why not accept this again.

Let us all have a chance to look have a at the book, let the magistrate amendment, and come on Bill considered in Committee; and I think you will agree that we are 221 11 DECEMBER 1959 222 to accept this are successful.

doing the right thing amendment.

I don't think the Govern­ ment wants to accept it, but one doesn't want to make heavy weather or to be unpleasant over such a small matter.

It is not such a very great matter.


Many prosecutions I have been practising and I think, Sir, the Honourable and learned Leader of this House is also aware of that in his long and distinguished practice at the Malayan Bar.

I think this Bill was the moment.

It misconceived-for might be justified· later on as time goes on.

for many years, me that none of them had read this book, because if anyone· had read it they would have said just now that they had read the book.
The Honour­ able Mr. Ubaidulla has said that he did not know anything about it.

Since no Honourable Member and said that he knew anything about it, then I would presume that none of them had read the book.

I admit that I have not.

I feel that, as none of us had read it.
if other Honourable Members are entitled to speak, so am I. has got up I know it, Sir, I am sure that the Honourable to what the I may say that contrary Honourable Mr. Tan Siew Sin said, the two experts that have been called in Court were not detective sergeants of Police, at all but Superintendents men of education and service· in the FOJ'.Ce, and they have carried prosecu­ tions to convictions selves are experts and the lawyers have recognised 'that they are men of integ­ rity who tell the truth and who have not come to Court to get convictions but to advise the judge on the justice that must be meted out at all times in our Courts.
because they them­ Dato' Suleiman: Mr. President, Sir, I am not taking part in this duel between the Honourable the Minister of Finance and the Honourable Dato' Thuraisingham, because they are both able, but I would like to comm ent on the amendment.

case which of Johore.
It was then H my memory serves me right, in came a constitutional before the Johore Court in 1929, Dato' Sir Roland Braddell was on one side­ the Government side-and when speak­ ing he quoted from his book on the Constitution decided that he had to get the Court's permission to quote this book as authority because he himself was present in Court-this is in accord with what the Honourable of Finance has just now read out, that is as the author is living the book cannot be quoted in Court.
the Minister Now, Sir, I would like to say this.

I am sure the Honourable Dato' Thu­ raisingham and other members of the agree with legal profession here will I am Dobree in with me Dato' Thuraisingham agrees that it would be good, that it would be fair and to the advantage of all parties that books written by persons or others who know something about the subject they write about could be quoted in Court, even though the author of a book i s still alive.
sure that the Honourable Dato' Thuraisingham will admit that this is a good bo(>k.

But I am sure he will say that he has not read it-or if he has read it, he could give his answer afterwards-(which I consider to be a neutral answer): or else that it is a good book and it would be very good and useful in Court.
If that is so, then we must insert the name of the Bill, otherwise as my Honourable the Minister of Finance, has colleague, said just now that when a person is living his work cannot be cited in Court.

It is very necessary to have this book.

If you want to make use of his experience, you have to call in an expert.
This will cost more money to the prosecution and it will have to ask for money from Government; and the Department concerned will bring the matter through the and the Minister will have to come here for more money-and I am sure that on the question of finance both Houses will turn it down.

Even if this House ·would be willing to give the necessary finance, because members of the legal profession tic, the members of the legal profession in the Dewan Ra'ayat-there in the Oppo sition-will the majority view.
are four not agree to Ministry of Justice, here are sympathe­ 223 11 DECEMBER 1959 224 I am sure that the Honourable Dato• Thuraisingham, because of this and on the grounds indicated by the Honour­ able the Minister of Finance just now, would be the first to agree that with­ out the ·name of Dobree that book will not be able to be used in Court.

Dato' Dr. Cbeah Toon Lok: Mr. .


Sir, I was very glad to President, hear the Honourable the Minister of Finance saying that there was no royalty attached to the book.

· But.

normally.

of course, we know that when you want to quote a book, even a dramatic play or even a piece of music, you have got to pay royalty on it; and if the writer of the book does not want to claim of him.

royalty it is very.
royalty it is very.

good founded on fact; but the fact is that if a form of gambling is changed, can you then say the law is based on fact?

If th is book is not correct in its des­ cription of a game, then it cannot be proved in a Court of Law, unless you get an expert who is better than Mr. Dobree to say that the .

facts he has described in that book are correct.

Then, of course, the book as it stands would not be good evidence.
You have got to get another expert-in fact I would say that the expert is the banker of the game-to say whether the book describing the games as Mr. Dobree was playing them is correct Then only could the book be an expert evidence on the games described.

· I repeat, Sir, that I think the man to say whetlier the games are correctly played or not is the banker of the game and not Mr. Dobree as he only plays it.
Nevertheless, I think, it is morally of chap ji ki have prosecuted him long wrong for us to induce people to change the methods of gambling.

The Honour­ able the Minister of Justice has said just now· that the game has not changed · in its method of gambling.

I cannot argue against him in that matter, because I do not know how.

the game of chap ji ki is conducted or played (Laughter).
But I want to know whether Mr. Dobree is a great gambler or is he not; whether he knows all the hundred games as· to ·describe them.

If he is.

then I think the Govern­ ment should ago for being a gambler (Laughter).

· I know, Sir, that there are so many games which have changed their cha­ racter in Malaya.

Formerly they started with horse racing.

pakau and malijong, us and now there comes a book telling that there are over l 00 games being played.

That means the games have changed .


their character have f.ound new ways of .

getting in­ come.

-Therefore, l believe, it i s wrong t o encourage ·of the ·publication a book whereby chances are given to people to change the methods ingenious of gambling.

Fornierly we have not heard of 100 characters.

have 100 character, even 10,000 character methods of gambling have changed.

But is it morally right for us to give persons a ·chance of changing the methods of gambling?

I think it is morally wrong.


Of course.

law is l ,000' character and glllmes.

So� the and gamblers but now we tlr.l.E.S.Crawford: Mr.Presiden� Sir, I would like to point out to the that Mr. Dobree Honourable Doctor has not only been a Police Officer, but he also became an expert on the subject.

He is, like the Honourable Doctor, a scientist and after having taken a great interest in gambling matters became a living expert-and his book is therefore an authority.
On the question of royalty, I do not think that this is quite understood.

book is a book of reference and is on sale in the open market, and anyone can go and buy copies of it.

There is no question of royalty-you pay the price of the book and the author gets a proportion of that money.

The I am the Minister of the Mr. Yeoh Kian Teik: Mr. President, Sir, my objection is not to the inclusion of the name of Mr. Dobree itself.

sure that this book is a good.

book.


Though I have not read it, as suggested by the Honourable I accept that this is a good Interior, book.

I am opposed to the principle of legislating recognition Jf we have a precedent to-day merely because the· Police are unable, or find it difficult, to prove a case against the accused, what is there to prevent this House from legislating in the future to assist the Police in other criminal cases, for instwice; motor car accident cases?

of any textbook.
of any textbook.

225 11 DECEMBER 1959 226 • accident, If there is no direct evidence of an the Court normally As the Police often find acquits the case because to help the Police in the defendant.

it difficult to establish there are no independent witnesses, are we to legislate establishing a Sir, if there is difficulty in the law, the law itself should be considered for amendment.

But certainly this House should not lend its aid to assist the Police in establishing case?

Nof Mr. President, a case.


on I think that his to be quite an expert in gambling affairs and he is a great authority this matter.

Personally, book will serve as a very good reference of justice book in the administration in this country, and I agree with the Honourable the Minister of Finance .

that it is only by legislation we can make use of this book in the Court.

the Police.
the Police.

Sir, with respect any Bill, are obstructing I cannot H we, merely Now the Honourable the Minister of Finance has said that, if we do not support this amendment, we are trying to obstruct to the Honourable Minister, agree with his statement.

by opposing the Police then in future this House will not consider any opposition at all to any Bill put up in.

this House.

This learned book by Mr. Dobree is, we are asked to agree, to be used in the Court, but on the other hand the amendment says.
.. may be used".

Now if the Court chooses to ignore what is stated in this amendment what legal sanction is there against the Judicial Officer exercising in rejecting Mr. Dobree's his discretion very good book?

Sir, the law, we know, is flexible.

It must change from time to time as conditions in society change.

But in that book the words are printed and they are fixed-it is inflexible.

Are we to say that the law, because we should also be in­ adopt that book, flexible?
Therefore, Mr. President, Sir, I fully support my Honourable friend Dato' Thuraisingham in his proposal that the words he suggested ted should be deleted.

to be dele­ Mr .

.

Lim Hee .Hong: Mr. President, agree with the Honourable Sir, I am neither a gambler nor a lawyer and I think my opinion is unbiased.

I the Minister of Justice that it is not easy for promoters of a game to change it.

As far as ·I know, chee fah is one of the most popular games in the country, and I also know -that.
many promoters have �n prosecuted and banished, but still flourishing to-day as ever.

the game is as I personally know Mr. Dobree, when he was in the country, and I have a great respect for him.

He is supposed Jtnche' A. M. Abu Dakar: Mr. Pre­ sident, Sir, the Bill is a very simple one, but I see from the several eloquent speeches made by members of the legal profession and by the Govern­ ment Bench, I feel that it has become more important than the Supply Bill which we discussed terday.
And I am sure that Members of the ·House of Representatives will be shocked to know tomorrow in the press what we have been doing to-day over a simple Bill that they have passed without any comment.
and passed yes­ the Attomey­ the necessity of the Interior, have given a favour­ Sir, from the remar:fs made by the the Minister Honourable we know that this matter has been referred to the Legal Draftsman, the Legal Department, General and the Chief Justice for their comments; and if I am not mistaken, they themselves able report.

Furthermore.
Furthermore.

for moving this Bill, as reported by the Honourable the Minister of Finance, is necessary to have the name of Mr. Dobree inserted, so that when reference is made to his book, there will be no demand by the defendant counsel that Mr. Dobree should be present himself to prove the authority of his report on it.
Sir, if this arises­ we have heard from the last speech of the Honourable the Minister of the Interior that Dato' Roland Braddell had to be present in a constitutional the Constitution of Johore, when it was before the Court of Johore-if such be the case, every time this book is ref erred to, and if this Bill is not approved as it is, Mr. Dobree has to Hy from England to Malaya to appear in Court and this House and the Dewan Ra'ayat would have to approve further supplementary his expenses.
unnecessary delays and expenditure.

Sir, to avoid all these budgets to meet case re 227 11 DECEMBER 1959 228 wbicb we have been debating yester­ day to approve----even for a small �ought that ?illiards were played with d�ces, Lord Birkenhead Srr Thomas, balls."

(Laughter).

replied : "Balls, •,.

.


the Budget to the limited requirements which my Honourable fi�ure-during fnend Mr. Cheah Seng Khim has given a bouquet to the Honourable the Minister of Finance for having pruned for the year 1960, I do not see any reason why there should be so many speeches made against it in connection with the introduction m�nt B!ll.

� hope my Honourable frien�s m this House will give more considerate thought and take this as a simple matter, just for reference and Bill.
leave it as it is and approve the Mr. Tu Siew Sin: Mr. President of this amend­ to my Sir, I wish to correct any misunder: standing which a remark of mine might have caused, particularly Mr. Yeoh Kian Honourable friend Teik.

I did not mean by that remark to suggest that the lawyers, or the H?no�able Members, who opposed this Bill had dishonourable all I meant to suggest was that tlie effect of that opposition however well­ intentioned the motiv�s might have been, would be to obstruct the course of justice.
I wish to make that quite clear.

motives; Sir Roland Braddell Dato' E. E. C. Thuraisingham: Mr. President, Sir, I am very thankful to the Honourable Minister of Finance for explaining his speech.

Reference has been made to Sir Roland Braddell.

I most carefully avoided mentioning the name of Sir Roland Braddell; I know the evidence mentioned by Sir Roland Braddell.
wrote many years ago a book on gaming and his book is referred to, and has been referred to, by lawyers for nearly 35 years, but the Govern­ ment did not find it necessary legislation to include that authority to guide the magistrates: whom why then Dobree of yesterday, I knew very well.

Why do you want it added?

It is at best a book from the point of view of a police officer, which he was.
I think it is · a much more serious matter than what the Honour­ able Mr. A. M. Abu Bakar said-it is a matter of justice.

We must not only do justice but must appear to do justi�e--that is the fundament of law, you cannot escape.

book as an to pass I must stress that Government cannot one.

We just do not have accept the amendment.

As I have stated already.

the position is quite clear.


Even the Honourable Mr. Yeoh Kian Teik admits that this book is a good book and our difficulty is a practical en?ugh expert witnesses to present or to give evidence, in the evtdence, hundreds of gambling games which are played in this country, and the only way to simplify the work of the Police is to allow them to refer to this book.
Under our present rules of evidence we cannot do so, because the author of this work is still alive, and in o�der to get round this difficulty it will have to be stated specifically the law that the Court may refer to this book.

I think it is as simple as that.

in Tun Leong Yew Koh: Mr. President, Sir, · when Sir Thomas Grimsby, addressing course of a gambling case, said he Lord Birkenhead in the I am very sorry that I cannot with­ draw this amendment, .
because several other speakers have spoken in support of it.

But I do think that the Honour­ able Minister of Justice can well give an undertaking to say that this book shall not prejudice an accused or an raise any presumption against d accused-a simple, straightforwar undertaking which I am sure the lawyers who are present here would accept.

They must accept it as it is an undertaking that in no manner will any presumption accused by our legislating sion of Dobree's book.
be raised against the for the inclu­ ' Dato' Suleiman: Mr. President, Sir, I would like to explain to the Honour­ that when able Dato' Thuraisingham I referred to Dato' Sir Roland Braddell I was referring that he had written on the Constitution of Johore�it was in connection with a case about the Constitution State of Johore.
I was not referring to something of the to 229 1 1 DECEMBER 1959 230 � Dato' Sir Roland Braddell's commen­ tary on Common Gaming cases-that commentary was on the law of gaming and-that could be used in Court and there was no need for legislation.
But this book explains how gambling is being conducted, how gambling are being played and carried on and the book cannot be cited in the Court as the author is still living; and that is the point which I would like to explain to the Honourable Dato' Thuraisingha m. .

certain games .of Now, I must apologise to the Honourable Dato' Dr. Cheah Toon Lok, because I forgot to reply to him in the first place just now, and when he got up the second time, r felt that I have to reply to him.
When I rise to reply to him, I recollect a certain pro­ verb in English and I hope I quote it right.

It is this- the book will not be able without the name of Dobree being mentioned, to be cited.

Further, may I say to Members of this House that there been precedents for amendments of this nature.

Sir, in the Societies nance, 1949 (No.

28 of 1949), which has been mentioned by my Honour­ able colleague the Minister of just now.

under section 25 (2).


it says- have Ordi­ Justice " In any prosecution under this Ordinance, the court may refer, for the purposes of evidence, to any of the following books : 'Thian Ti Hwui', the Hung-League or the Heaven-Earth League by G. Schlegel, · 'The Triad Society' by W. Stanton, 'The Hung Society or the Society of Heaven and Earth' by J. S. M. Ward and W. G.

Stirling."
Stirling."

Of course, I may say that the name of the other book is not so flowery as those mentioned here, but as I have said there have been precedents, and I would ask Honourable Members of this august Chamber to accept.

well, with members of the legal "The mistakes that doctors make are found six feet under the ground, while the are hanging six mistakes that lawyers make feet above the ground."

(Laughter).
(Laughter).

So, perhaps, knowing this fully Dato' Dr. Cheah got the Honourable up and, confidently and eloquently, joined issue pr-ofession on an illegal matter.

And nobody in I also know fully well that this House- particularly the members of the legal profession-if any.

matter is brought up about medicine, would dare to tread.
This reminds me of the proverb "Fools rush· in where angels fear to tread ... Sir, the eloquence of the Honourable Dato' Dr. Cheah Toon Lok on legal · matters has so stunned me that I almost forgot the second proverb.

I would ask th� Honourable Dato' Dr. Cheah Toon Lok to try, in future.

when legal members speak on the other side, to speak foi: this side.

Then he would be quite safe : in other words, always choose the safe side when a doctor would like to speak on law.

Then he will be always right.


And I hope he will always remember in his practice ·...., too that the customers are· always right.

In.

this case, Sir.

it would be difficult.

as my Honourable colleague the Minister of Finance has said just now in his reply, to accept this amendD).ent; because if it was.

accepted, then Dato' Dr. Cbeah Toon Lok: Mr. President.

Sir, I purposely did not want to mention my profession, because there are many cases of neurosis co� -to .

me.

on account of gambling.


People sit up to 5 or 6 o'clock gambling.

and they come to the doctor in the morning, because they are upset.

I do not want to see the pop ulation of this country inflicted with neurosis.

Speaking about the matter of law, the law is a matter of logic, a matter of something which we put on paper saying.

that such and such a thing must be done.

Any reasonable man under- stands the law.

· I understand that some of my Honourable friends.


who went to get law certificates, only read at the Bar for 1 t years.

When you want to become got to spend 7 a doctor, you have years to become one.

So, I think law is a very simple thing (Laughter).

Scientll;ically, we are better trained I have asked judge from the evidence.

so many lawyers whether they have studied epistemology.

have anyone of you heard of the they '?"

They said word 'epistemology haven't.


l said: "My God, lawyers I said : "Well, to 231 1 1 DECEMBER 1959 232' have not heard of 'epistemology a science of knowledge."

' .

It is House immediately resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill.

Tile President: You are not in order.

Dato' Dr. Cheab: I hope my Honour­ able friend will not think that just up to speak because a doctor stands on the question of law, he does not know anything about it.
to me that because I have got so many cases of neurosis caused by gambling I feel that I have got to say something about it.

It has occurred Bill considered in Committee.

(Mr. President in the Chair).

Clauses I and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported without amendment : read the third time and passed.

TIIE HOUSING TRUST (AMEND­ MENT) ·BILL Second Reading Tun Leong Yew Koh: Sir.
just now I was asked to give an assurance that in using the book by Dobree, no presumption would be raised against the accused.

Sir, this only tells you how a game is played­ it does not say whether a game has been played.

So, tion at all against the accused.

there is no presump­ book by Dobree Question put, amendment negatived.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Tun Leong Yew Koh: Sir, I beg to "an Act move that a Bill intituled to amend the Housing Trust Ordinance, 1950" be read a second time.
Mr. President, Sir, this is a very simple Bill, which proposes an amend­ ment to enable the Deputy Chairman to carry out certain routine duties which may otherwise be delayed when the Chairman may not be immediately available.

Bill.

Bill reported without amendment : Mr. T. H. Tan: I beg to second the read the third time and passed.

motion.
motion.

THE BETTING (AMENDMENT) BILL Second Reading Tun Leong Yew Koh: I beg to move that a Bill intituled "an Act to amend 1953" be read the Betting Ordinance, a second time.

:itnche' Nik Hassan: I beg to second the motion.

Mr. Tan Siew Sin: Sir.

this Bill pro­ 1be Minister of the Interior (Dato' Sir, in July a Deputy Chairman was Snleiman): Mr. President, this year appointed to the Housing Trust in accordance with the provisions of section 5 of the Ordinance.
The purpose was to relieve the of this appointment Chairman.

who is.

at present myself, of from the day to day administration the Housing Trust affairs.

In order to achieve this object, therefore, proposed to amend the Housing Trust Ordinance itself.

it is Question put, poses to amend the Betting Ordinance.
1953. in the same way that the Common Gaming Houses (Amend­ ment) Bill proposes to amend the Common Gaming Houses Ordinance, 1953. and for the same reasons as I gave when moving the second reading of the Common · Gaming Houses (Amendment) Bill.

There is, therefore.

Bill considered no need for me to amplify further.

(Mr. President Bill accordingly read a second time and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

in Committee.

in the Chair) and agreed to.


House immediately resolved itself into a Committee on the :Bill.

Question put.

and agreed to.

Clauses I and 2 ordered to stand part Bill accordingly read a second time of the Bill.

and committed to a Committee of the Bill reported without amendment : whole House.

read the third time and passed.


233 11 DECEMBER 1959 234 mE OAms AND AFF IRMA­ TIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL Second ReadJnc Tun Leong Yew Koh: I beg to move that· a Bill intituled " an Act to amend the Oaths 1949" be read a second time.

and Affirmations Ordinance.

Sir.

it is customary in for the law to provide Mr. President, most countries for the recognition of oaths and affi.

davits taken or made in other countries.

No such provision is contained in the present law of the Federation.
The object of the present Bill is to give re­ cognition to oaths and affirmations taken in other countries.

It will be noted, however, that the draft Bill pro­ vides that no oaths for the purpose of the Constitution the Federation except before matic or consular officer of the Federa· tion who is himself a citizen of the Federation.

can be taken outside a diplo· :bgku Mubsein: I beg to second the · motion.

Question put.

and agreed to.


Bill accordingly read a .second time and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

· House immediately resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill.

Bill considered in Committee.

(Mr. President in the Chair) Clauses 1 .

and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported without amendment: read the third time and passed.
MOTIONS STANDlNG ORDERS, DEWAN NEGARA Tun Leong Yew Koh: Mr. President, I beg to lllove, · That pursuant to Standins Order 76, the First Report of the Standin,g Orders Com­ mittee tabled as DN.

No.

1 of 1959, be adopted.

There is little I need say about the amendments we are now proposing to Orders ad interim which the Standing we adopt� in September.

Honourable Senators have had these proposals for some days, and have had an opportu­ nity to study them.
I do not therefore propose to give any analysis of the but will of course be glad amendments; any Honourable Senator to enlighten if any of our proposals are not entirely clear.

Most of the amendments are drafting ones, and the remainder in effect amplify the procedure which we must adopt not only in ordering of our own business, but in the manner in which we receive business from and transmit business to the other House.
In view of what has happened in another place, I feel I should perhaps point out to Honourable Members that the Committee recommends tion of a new paragraph Order 36 reading as follows : the inser­ to Standing "(9) It shall be out of order to use­ words; (a) treasonable words; (b) seditious (c) words which are likely to pr9- mote feelings of ill-will or hostility munities in the Federation".

between different com­ I of Com­ Times".

We is an excellent On this subject, Sir.


there editorial in today's "Straits on the Committee considered this rule; which is based on a similar rule for the United Kingdom House mons, to be truly self-evident, and .may say that I for one-and I think I speak for .all members of the Standing Orders CoJJlJllittee-am most asto­ nished that anyone .could challenge its propriety.

It is .because we have the privilege, the power.

of free speech here that we consider we should exer­ cise responsibility.
responsibility is the application I feel sure, rely of our Members and ultimately ·sineere guidance, Sir.

What we do not want to see, however, is our Assembly converted into a forum for treasonable, seditious attacks, or a battleground for communal strife.

a terrifying evil.
a terrifying evil.

As for of the Order, we can, upon the good sense Power without on your Before I conclude, I should like to express the appreciation of the Standing Orders CoJJlJllittee to those learned members of the Attorney-General's 235 11 DECEMBER 1959 236 us in our delibera­ staff who assisted tions.

I should in particular thank the Parliamentary Draftsman, Mr. Hugh Hickling/ ingenuity has rendered our task so much easier.
bahawa keputusan Yang di-P!rtua itu­ lah dapat m�entukan ket!nteraman Dewan ini yang boleh menyelamatkan pendudok ra'ayat sa-bagai menjawab kapada Ahli Yang Berhormat tadi.

(Tepok).

negeri ini.

5ekian-lah whose skill and like to · Sir.

I beg to move.

Mr. T. B. Tan: Sir, I beg to second the motion.

Question proposed.
Question proposed.

new Clause 36 with the Constitution ttoche A. M. Abo Dakar: Mr. Pre­ sident, Sir, I take this opportunity of congratulating the Standing Orders Committee for putting up this recom· mendation to insert a (9) (a), (b) and (c).
Having personally experienced all the three items pre­ viously, and giving full freedom to Members of this House to speak on whatever matters-whether it is communal, seditious or treasonable within the four walls of this House-and the Press having the freedom to publish same, thereby easily become which would in the country, accessible to everyone the things which may create tension.

That is why this clause referred to is most welcome.
Having experienced this nature of things, in 1957. j() this as­ pect, once again I welcome the additions.

I for one will be most happy to see that the Honourable President this Chamber is the onl judge during a speech of each Honoura­ ble Member whether he falls within the categories (a), (b) or (c).
Sir, if this clause is not inserted in the Standing Orders, there will be difficulty for you to assess the degree of speech which will no doubt come under which you will object, and possibly may have to debate again whether a speech made by a Member comes within the three categories these .

s�feguards written is more wel­ come than to have a debate or argument As such, Sir, I once in this House.
again thank the members of the Standing Orders Committee in fore­ seeing what actually happened this country became having this clause Standing Orders now will be safeguard for the future.

independent and inserted in the of y person to or not.

To have this class, to before we hebe' Da Abdul Jalil: Tuan Yang t!rhadap pada pindaan di-Pertua.
kapada Standing Orders 36 saya suka mendapat tahu sadikit apa-kah huraian dalam bahagian (c) yang di-kehendaki "words which are likely to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility between different communities in the Fede­ Ment!ri yang ration".

Saya minta-lah berkenaan menyebutkan dua tiga chon­ toh perkara yang boleh di-Crtikan ill­ itu.
will yang di-kebendaki yang perka­ berchakap ada baik, saya Dalam perkara 36 perkataan bdle' Nik Ha.an: Tuan Yang di­ Pertua, sa-bagai sa..Orang • .t\hli Select Committee, perkara Standing Orders saya rasa memberi fahaman kapada Ahli kita di-sini.

dalam bahagian 36 (c) yang mana per­ kataan bagaimana-kah perkataan2 boleh di-sifatk:an sa-bagai perkataan yang menyakitkan hati atau membang­ kitkan perselisehan di-antara kaum.
Saya rasa, Tuan Yang di-Nrtua, taan2 ini apabila di-chakapkan di-dalam Dewan ini maka Tuan Yang di-Pertua­ lah sa-baik2 orang yang menentukan perkataan itu boleh membangkitk:an perselisehan kaum atau perkataan itu boleh menumpahkan darah ra'ayat negeri ini.
Perkara itu ada-lah t!rletak kuat-kuasa-nya Pertua bagi Dewan ini, kira-nya tidak ada bab yang menyebutkan perkara yang sa-umpama ini maka sudah tentu­ lah Dewan ini akan terpaksa mem­ bahathkan satu2 perkara itu dengan panjang lebar san bagi meoontukan satu2 perkataan itu boleh m!mbangkitkan .

perselisehan di-antara sa-baik-nya-lah kita ini kapada Tuan Yang di·Pertua Dewan ini yang mana kita perchaya.

semua Ahli Dewan ini kaurn atau tidak.


Saya rasa dan mengambil keputu­ pada Tuan Yang di­ serabkan perkara perchaya Mr. T. H. Tan: Mr. President, I rise as a member of the Standing Com­ mittee which helped to draft the Standing Orders.

I suggest to the Honourable Member concerned who wanted some examples of what words are likely to promote feelings of ill-will, .
237 1 1 DECEMBER 1959 238 hostility between the different com­ munities in the Federation that rather than think of what words that are likely to be used, that he should accept this particular provision in the spirit �bich all of us have, and that spirit 1s that all the different communities in t!Jis country �ho�d live in harmony.

The and hostility.

Now that the elec­ time of elections 1s over and during that period of elections we have heard words which in fact might have ill-will tion campaign is over.
I suggest that we should do everything we can to promote _racial goodwill and harmony.

and I thmk that this provision would be very helpful towards that end.

caused them the words in the able way that them.

· Dato' G. Shelley: Sir, the English language is a very subtle language and those three words that have been brought up for debate may be given a very wide interpretation.

Behind could lie a multitude of sins.


and we are placing our trust on the · President to interpret he no doubt will be interpreting As a member of the legislature past.� years, I feel that we can accept the nsk.

There is no doubt that a risk exists, but having served in the Legis­ lative C�uncil I feel, Sir, that the Speaker will not overstep the bounds and will follow the practice of predecessors been in the Chair as Mr. Speaker the Legislative Council.
I suggest that the House can accept these words with complete confidence that the President will exercise his rights in an able manner.

(Applause).

for the past · ten years, who have for the in given us · freedom of speech, then you can as well object to all the other restrictions imposed upon us under Rule 36. the ordinary citizen is which can be imposed on Wh�t we are asked to use is good In sense 10 our freedom of expression.

t�e Constitution.

given freedom of speech under Article 10.


At the same time there are certain restrictions that freedom of speech by the Parlia­ ment.

We Members of Parliament who have· arrogated to ourselves that right of free speech should not be shy of upon our­ introducing such restrictions of the country.
selves in the interests and if our for we are expected to lead, duty is to lead we must not use such words as will cause friction in the country between communities may be construed as seditious or treasonable or which .

.

We have great confidence in you, Sir, to submit ourselves in this amendment.
I do not you the discretion to whether we speak words manner and in a as the President of this House, and we shoukl voluntarily you in giving decide as to in a parliamentary manner not contrary to what has been introduced see any sense at all in the arguments put forward elsewhere on the pure and simple theory of freedom of speech.

There is no absolute freedom of speech anywhere, and even in the foremost that is so.
There .democratic countries are sqme restrictions which the citizens have voluntarily imposed upon them­ selves, and there are restrictions are imposed on them by the legislative bodies.

which a number listed, quite apart from s of this nature are not un­ Mr. A. Nahappan: Mr. President, Sir, we have seen elsewhere the appalling generation of heat on this matter.

Sir, restriction common.

As it is.

there are of restrictions these three· to be added under Rule 36 of the Standing Orders.
Members of this Honourable House are not allowed to make any reference to a matter which is sub judice, to use offensive or insulting language about members of this House or impute improper motives to any other Senator, and so on.

All these are restrictio to oppose these restrictions merely on the ground that the Constitution ns.
If we are going has Therefore, I wish to join my Honourable friend Mr. Abu Bakar in congratulating the members of the Standing Orders Committee in having introduced this desirable restriction upon us.

We should not consider it in any way an infringement upon our freedom of speech.

Under Article 63 of the Constitution, the validity of proceedi ngs in the Parliament or any Committee thereof shall not be ques· tioned in any Court.

So far as that privilege is concern ed, it is there.
There is no infringement of that been given by the privilege, which has 239 11 DECEMBER 1959 240 What is now being intro· Constitution.

which is to be duced is the restriction exercised by you, Sir, on us, if we happen to use such words as may be construed seditious.

treasonable, or which may create a condition of animosity between the various paragraph (c) is parti­ .

munities.

Sub- com- ed, between communities.


Any cularly a very tricky and delicate matter, and our politics in this country is to a great extent non-communal.

Even His Majesty's Governm ent, though it is composed of three com­ munities, in sentiment and spirit, it has always been non-communal.

In view of this we do not want to say any­ thing that will create prejudice, hatr animosities wrong ideas starting from this.

House can create a condition of tension, a condition of animosities.
touching ever so many delicate on cultures, touching on language touching on communities and so on­ and in all these we have to exercise a great deal of caution in our speeches.

So, Sir, we, as members of the Upper House of Parliamen tarily accept these restrictions, even though the Constitution good measure of freeclom of speech.
t, should volun­ has given us a subjects There are saya Nrhubong dengan perkara ini, rasa satu pandangan yang oorat mustahak-lah di-ambil untok menjaga nama baik Dewan Negara yang di· hormati ini.

Harl ini saya terbacha di· dalam surat khabar "Straits Times" pass $889 (11 /12/59) muka 6 "Senators millions Bill in 70 minutes".
Chara2 bagini yang di-buat oleh orang2 asing yang dudok dalam Dewan ini ia-lah satu kebebasan yang telah di-gunakan oleh mereka, saya rasa untok menge­ lirukan orang ramai pada apa yang sa-benar-nya terjadi dalam Dewan ini.

oleh Strai.ts Times Kita semua tahu.

kalmarin atau sa-malam kita tefah meshuarat dari jam 10 sampai 1.15, sambong balek pada · pukul 2.30 sampai jam 4 petang.

Ini satu chontoh� bukan-nya 70 minutes atau 1 jam 10 minutes sa-bagaimana yang di-reportkan ini.
Saya harap-lah Straits Times, sa-bagai surat k.habar yaq.

tinggi mutu� nya yang berm<Sgah d�ngan berita2 yang boleh di-pegang, tidak-lah chuba hendak mengelirukan orang ramai dengan berita2-nya.

Saya rasa bagini hendak menjatoh dan merosak­ kan nama baik Dewan Negara ini.

Ini tentu-lah tidak termas ok di-bawah 3 perkataan khianat dan beberapa per­ kara lagi itu.

tetapi chara tidak lang­ song itu ia-lah satu perbuatan yang tidak masok 3 itu, itu pun hampir masok.
Dan mustahak-lah di-beri pandangan yang berat.

chakap2 boleh me­ di-katakan kaum itu.

Sa­ bche' Da Abdal Jalil: Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

saya suka menyatakan yang saya tidak hendak menentang apa yang t�andong dalam Fasal 36 ini.

Saya hanya mahu tahu bagaimana-kah chontoh yang nerbitkan perselisehan benar-nya saya faham dalam Dewan ini kita tidak harus mengeluarkan perkataan2 yang tidak bagitu bagus dan boleh menerbitkan kaum itu.
tetapi perbahathan2 kalau ada perkara2 yang kita tidak bagitu faham, dan ada-nya perkara2 sa-umpama ini nyenangkan.

5ekali lagi saya ulangi saya tidak-lah saya chuma mahu tahu huraian-nya kita tidak-lah dapat menurut tidak·lah me­ persangk.itan menentang, sahaja.

itngko Muhsein: Yang Berhormat Tuan Yang di-Pertua, berkenaan dlSngan Standing Order ini, saya rasa, sa-lain daripada atoran2 yang mengenai pada Ahli2 Dewan Yang Berhormat; ini juga meliputi atoran2 mengenai pemerhati2 dan Dewan ini.
yang bukan ahli kapada lain2 perkara bagi orang Jika saya tidak salah, sa-malam oleh Speaker tidak ingat, sana tidak di·benarkan juga saya ada terbacha atau 2 hari yang lampau saya ada terbacha dalam surat khabar berkenaan dengan ahlil pem­ berita tidak di-benarkan Bermuda-Barbados-saya di-West Indies masok, oleh kerana berita2 yang di­ buat barangkali tidak benar atau me· ngelirukan.
Saya tidak chadangk.an mesti perkara ini di-jalankan Saya sentiasa berfahaman mustahak surat2 khabar di-benarkan dan di-beri segala kemudahan2 untok mereka, tetapi hendak·lah mereka beri pula pada orang ramai cherita2, perkara2 yang sa-oonar-nya Boleh jadi berita baik, cherita baik, itu saya tidak kira.

Tetapi beri­ terjadi lah perkara yang sa-benar-nya di-sini.

telah berlaku di-sini.

di-sini.


tidak 241 1 1 DECEMBER 1 959 242 Tetapi dengan chara2 yang bagini, ra&a saya tentu­ - saya rasa patut-lah Dewan ini juga mengambil pandangan yang berat dan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, lah berkuasa meminta surat kbabar yang berkenaan irrl tidak mengulang yang bagini pada masa akan kekeliruan datang.

Kerana jikalau orang ramai terkejut, Dewan membacha tentu-lah Ra'ayat 7 hari bermeshuarat, tiba2- Dewan ini satu jam sa-puloh minit sahaja.
Saolah2, mentang2 Dewan Tinggi barangkali orang-nya tidak gagah bendak berdiri, nanti sak.it pinggang, jadi h tidak mabu comment banyak atau pun saolah2-nya Dewan ini menjadi macham rubber .stamp.
terpaksa-la words, of ill-will Dato' Dr. Cheah Toon Lok: Mr. Sir, I wish to draw the words and words which are or President, attention of the House to the im­ portance of s�hes that are made here not containing treasonable seditious likely to promote feelings hostility between different communi­ ties in the Federation, owing to the fact that these speeches are published verbatim as is the case of speeches made in the House of Commons in the U .K.
You can order and buy a copy of Hansard and I used to order and buy Hansards just for the purpose of enlightenment also have speeches published by the Government Printer and these books are published and sold through­ out the Federation of Malaya and throughout the world, and if the speeches spoken in our august Assem­ bly were to contain words are treasonable, they will serve as propaganda against our country.

part of the legislation this I think that is very necessary.
which and so on, Here we verbatim and pleasure.

seditious Therefore · chuba Ini-lah nampak-nya chara-nya hendak di-presentkan-nya, hendak di­ tunjokkan oleh berita yang berupa bagini.

Jadi, itu-Iah sahaja pandangan saya dalam perkara berita2 yang dengan sa-chara yang tidak lansong hendak menjatohkan maruah nama baik Dewan Negara yang di-hormati ini.

(Tepok).

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved.

That, pursuant to Standing Order 76, the First Report of the Standing Orders Com­ mittee tabled as DN.
No.

1 of 1959, be adopted.

bche' Nik Hassan: Tuan Yang di­ Pertua, sa-bagai sa-orang Ahli yang menga­ terpileh dalam Jawatan-Kuasa Undang2 Peratoran torkan Pindaan Meshuarat ini, saya menguchapkan tahniah kapada saudara saya Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada Trengganu e.nche' Da Abdul Jalil kita, kerana dia telah memberi sokongan yang penoh kapada Bab 36 mengenai perkataan2 yang mana telah di-bangkitkan dengan hebat di-dalam Dewan Ra'ayat.
Di­ dalam Dewan Ra'ayat, Ahli2 Party Islam dan juga Ahli2 Pembangkang telah membangkang dengan keras-nya dan Abli2 Pembangkang berperi2 mem­ bangkang di-atas perkara2 Bab 36 ini.

Jadi, ini-lah satu perkara chukup-lah rasa terima kaseh dan memberi tahniah kapada-nya, kerana saudara kita ini dapat menekan s!nti­ men Party-nya dan hersama2 dengan susunan ayat2 kita menyokong di-atas yang ada di-dalam Standing Orders ini.
(Tepok) ini patut-lah beritahu kapada orang ramai supaya mereka itu mengerti chara bermain politik di-dalam terima kaseh.

(Tepok).

negara kita ini.

sekian, Saya rasa, yang saya di­ COMMITTEE OF SELECTION Tun Leong Yew Koh: Mr. President.

Sir.
Sir.

I beg to move, That, pursuant to the Standing Orders of the Dewan Negara, as amended by the recommendations Report of the Standing Orders Committee, the following Senators of the Committee of Selection proposed in the First be elected members : The Honourable the Minister of Justice (The Honourable S.M.N.)

Tun Leong Yew Koh, The Honourable Mr. T. H. Tan, J.M.N.

The Honourable Nik Hassan bin Haji Nik Yahya, J.M.N.

The Honourable Enche' Ahmad bin Said, A.M.N.


bgko Mohsein: Sir, I beg to seeond the motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved, 243 1 1 DECEMBER 1959 244 That, pursuant to the Standing Orders of the Dewan Negara, as amended by the recommendations proposed in the First Report of the Standing Orders Committee, the following Senators : of the Committee of Selection be elected members The Honourable the Minister of Justice (The Honourable Tun Leong Y cw Koh, S.M.N.)

The Honourable Mr. T. H. Tan, 1.M.N.


The Honourable Nik Hassan bin Haji Nik Yahya, 1.M.N.

The Honourable Enche' Ahmad bin Said, A.M.N.

ADJOURNMENT Mr. President: The meeting is ad­ journed sine die.

The date of the next meeting will be notified to Honourable Members later on.

Adjourned at 11.46 o'clock a.m.