Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697648894404.pdf (Belize)
1 I • i A BELIZE fepconiEa.

-&Sa.o together with the proceedings of the Committee, evidences and appendices before the Joint Select Committee on “The White Paper — Proposed Terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize”.

Appointed by Order of the House of Representatives dated the 29 January 1981 and of the Senate dated 3 February 1981.
A First Meeting of the Joint Select Committee Appointed to Consider the White Paper on the Proposed Terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize held in Punta Gerda on February 1G, 1981 Members Present Verbatim $.

v. Ii.

Courtenay) Hon.

V. H. Courtenay) Hon.

C. L., B. Rogers) Hon.

Hon.

F. J. Marin Hon.

S. Musa Hon.

F. H. Hunter Hon.

G. Ramos in the Chair Hon.

V„ Courtenay: Good morning, gentlemen.

I would wish to begin by Good morning, gentlemen.


calling to order the proceedings of the Joint Select Committee of the National Assembly of Belize.
I would wish to state first cf all that our authority, the power under which we have, and that which we have by virtue of a resolution which was passed in both the House of Representatives and in the Senate and that resolution invites this Committee, appointed this Committee and authorized it to consider and to report on the White Paper which was favoured by the Government of Belize in both houses.

It also empowers us to hear the views of all the people of Belize.
Anybody who wants to come forward and to hear their views about the proposals which are contained in the White Paper and are this is why we are in Punta Gorda today to hear as many views as are possible of the people from the Toledo District.

Anybody who wishes to G speak to us, we are going to ask them to come forward inside the bar because are going to ask them to come of two reasons.
First of all I want to make sure that we don't miss a word of what you say and secondly, we have a little instrument there that is going to record your voice.

We can't record it from all the way at the back of the room so that if you would come forward and sit on this bench in front of us and speak then we will be able to tape what you have to say, so that we have exactly what you say and we don't make any mistakes.
That’s the purpose of that, not to trick you, but so that we have a record of exactly what people have said and we can prove it by producing their voice.

All right, having said that new, I'll as': the first person who wishes to come and make a statement to please just push open that door and come forward and sit on this bench hero before me, before all of us and express yourself.

Hon.

V. Courtenay: Good morning, Air, have a seat.

Your name, please?
Your name, please?

C. Arzu: Candido Arzu Courtenay; And you live, Mr. Arzu?

C. Arzu: In Barranco Courtenay: Welcome.

We arc pleased you are here, Now what would you like to tell us about the White Paper?

Well, I received some copies cf the White Paper and instructions from Arzu: the Clerk of the Assembly to write down the views or objections of anybody who so objects or who support the White Paper.
Well I got that and the paper was widely distributed and up to the time I left Barranch nobody had was objected so I take it that it is acceptable to the ...

I o 4 o C3 Q 2.

Courtenay: hold?

.... villagers of barrancho.

In Barranco what office do you Arzu: I am Chairman of the Village Council.

I Courtenay: Thank you.


Sc then, as Chairman of the Village Council and having distributed the White Paper, it is your opinion, having heard from the people that the village as a whole supports the terms and conditions a that are contained.

Is there anything else that you wish to say?

Well, thank you very much for coming so far to let us knew.

We are very, very pleased with what you had to say.

Arzu: Thank you.

Couretnay: Hext.

Anybody else?

Good morning, Sir.

Your name,please?


J. Grinage: John Grinage.

Courtenay: John Grinage, and i;r. Grinage, where do you live?

Grinage: Punta Gorda Town Courtenay: And you appear on behalf of any organization, or as a citizen.

Grinage: As a citizen.

Courtenay: As a Citizen.

Now, tell us what you have come to talk to us about.
Grinage: I support the Bill in an uncertain manner and frecheartedly if I could understand more about the right of the people in this sense with the laws and different matters because within this White Paper, I don't see where the people have no partaking with the law.

Every law I sc-e here comes from the National Assembly.

I don't see no part where the people have a right to object or agree to the lav;.
So what I would like to say, So what I would like to say, I say that this is a sacred thing and it shouldn't be tampered with only the National Assembly.

I believe that amendment should be made that certain laws that are big enough shouldn't be handled by Grvernment.

I feel that it should go to the people at a referendum to subject it, to present it to the House and I don't sec where the people have no power and no right to decide in this.
Secondly, I notice that the Governor-General will be appointed by the Prime Minister.

Now to no, the way I see it, I believe that you wouldn't have no democracy because then if the Prime Minister is there, he could move, if he sign a lav, that going direct through because then that's illegal.

The Governor-General unde" the rule a fifth wheel to the coach because a fifth wheel to the c-o.ch is very important.

Hon.

F. Hunter: A what, Sir?

Courtenay: A fifth wheel to the cvach.


feels that the Governor- General will be under a fifth wheel to the coach.

Grinage: So I don't know what amendment or hew you de it.

The Governor- General should have a little more power concerning - there are certain law that should be put that suppose it comes that the country comes to a chaos right, the Governor-General have the right to take over until this thing is settled, you see?

With the advice of nobody, then, I believe,we1 re going someplace.
Courtenay: Now those are the ':,\-ro points you want to make?

and you finish?

Wait, hold on, please don't run so quick.

I want to understand you very I want to understand clearly, Mr. Grinage.

I want to be sure that we understand exactly what you are saying.

3.

Now I understand you saying that this is a sacred document, In other words, are saying: the Constitution is a sacred law.

Is that what you Grinaree; Correct.


Courtenay: Good, and that it is your feeling that before anybody Good, tamper with it, that the people should approve Is that what you are saying?

Grinage: Exactly.

Courtenay: And you are saying that the people should approve if by referendum.

That is what you are proposing.

Before that thing is changed you arc saying that, apart from the National Assembly, the people must also approve it in a referendum.

That's your proposal?

Grinage: Yes.


And in that case, you see, the Government would «never go wrong., Courtenay: All right, I'm not quarrelling with you, you know, I just want to make sure me and you understand one another.

Hon So Musa: Nov/ before you leave, I want to ask you?

A referendum to determine what, a referendum for what.

Grinage: Well, when the House makes the law, whatever law they propose.

I don't know what that law will be.


Musa: You are saying that you feel that in our new Constitution there should be a clause in there that any law the House makes the people must approve.

Grinage: Net anyone, because you have some small little petty ones, you know.

Musa: That’s what I want to understand.

What kind of law are you talking about?

Grinage: like something .that would affect like real power that could hold down the people.

You understand what I mean?

Musa: No, I don't.

4.


Grinage: Like suppose you want to pass a law that a man is cut there, right, and a police hail him, he must stop and do what the police say.

You know what I mean, without asking the police any questions.

That's to show you what 1 mean.

That, the Government shouldn't get no right to protect themselves on their own behalf.

v husa: The Government shouldn't have any right "Co protect themselves.

Grinage: Their own personal selves without the will of the people.
Iiusa: You notice in the Jhite Paper it provides for regular elections and all that every five years and the people have a right to change the Government.

Yqu know this.

Grinage: Yes, you have a right, but you see again that could change in the House.

Everything in here can change in the House.

It's right there.

Courtenay: Let me see if I am understanding.

Let me see I will ask you a question and if you don't agree with me say so, alright?

In other words, me say so, alright?


what I am understanding is to say that any lav.'

that affect the rights of the people, that is the law that you want to go to referendum.

They are taking away your right.

Grinage: Exactly.

And what I'm trying to say too, that if anything going to change here, it shouldn't be changed just by the House there.

It should come back to the people.

Courtenay: We got that point.

Anybody else on the question of referendum?


Alright, we will pass on to the power of the Governor- General.

That was the other one.

Let me correct you about one thing.

The Governor-General is not going to be appointed by the Premier, at least that's not in the proposal.

If you.

think so then you should say so.

Let me read it for you.


This is point 16, so you could follow me - "There shall be a Governor-General of Belize who shall be a citizen of Belize," that is the first thing, he must be a citizen it appointed after consultation with the Premier by the Queen as her representative", so it's an appointment by the Queen of a person as her representative, after she has discussed the matter with the Premier, the Prime Minister.

Grinage: Exactly.

That’s a tricky thing.

Courtenay: You think that is tricky.


And you.

don't like that.

5.

Grinagg: No, I don’t like that and you know why?

Courtenay: Ycu 'would have preferred the Queen to do that by herself.

Is that what you are saying?

Let us understand you, how you feel it should be appointed.

Grinagc: I believe so.

!

Courtenay: By the Queen herself.

Alright.

Grinage: But again, I don't want to call it pure British, but I believe since we want protection from the Queen, she has to have some kind of power too.
You see because this thing come out tricky, by appointment, like she's appointing a J.P. You notice that it says by advice, it doesn't say the Queen appoint, she will advise.

Courtenay: '.Jell, this one is only after discussion, not by advice.

Just take your time, listen carefully.

This one isn't even by advice, you know.

It's after discussion.

I changed the word consultation to discussion so that you .....

Anyway .... Grinage: You hear, after discussion, who will they discuss with, not the people.
Courtenay: The Prine Minister.

Grinage: Alright.

Courtenay: And you don't like that?

Grinage: No.

Courtenay: The Queen by herself?

Grinage: Yes.

Courtenay: Alright.

Well we understand you.

And then finally, I would also like to point out to you, just to correct something that you said, that also that same Point 16 says that the Governor- General holds office during the Queen's pleasure, right, Now it's the pleasure of the Queen when ho must go.
You notice that, In other words, the Prime Minister ... Grinage: I respect that, but again that where I come to the first question, the House could change the rule.

I© come right, back to that.

6.

Courtenay: 'de understand you on that.

I think I have your point.

Je’11 see if everybody understands.

i • Hon.

C. L. 3.

Sogers: ’Jell, I won't call it pure British, but I want L. 3, Rogers: to get an understanding, that's all I want.
You feel that the Queen should do this naming of the Governor-General herself irrespective of who the Governor-General turns out tc be, but she should select the * Governor-General.

And do you have any example you could show us that a British colony that proceeded to independence that the Queen name the Governor-General.

Do you have any example you could show us.

Ue follow your points so now we want to support it with an example.

Grinage: I’m net quite sure how it work in Jamaica.

I'm not quite sure.
I'm not quite sure.

Courtenay: I could tell you.

I read it.

Appointed by the Queen, but on the advice of the Prime Minister, and there it isn't even after consultation, on the advice ... Grinage: i’1 went into independence, it went into independence under But then you see, it looks tricky because when Jamaica a different situation from us and I feel like our independence will be a funny one from many parts of the world.

Jhy?

Because what is a hundred and -hy?


fifty thousand people, not even sufficient to fit in the Umpire State Building and then we are between two big powerful nations and nobody wants to claim us.

Anything can happen anytime.

Paper can change, Anything can happen anytime, laws can change and we have tc change to suit time, u'e are just an emerging nation coming up.

Courtenay: Ue are twice the size- of Jamaica, right Grinage: In land, but not in population.
'de have land to waste, man o Courtenay: Alright, I:r. Grinagc, is there any other point you would like to raise with us.

Ue --'ant to thank you for coming forward and for letting uc have the benefit < f your views.

Thank you very much.

Is there anybody else who would wish to come forward.

Your name, please.

Bardalez: Timothy Bardales° Courtenay:Timothy Bardalez.

Row, i--r. Bardalez, I am going to give you a little trouble.

I am going to ask you to speak up a little louder little trouble.
for me, sc' that everybody at this table can hear you and so the machine 7. can get your voice.

Now, Hr.

Bardalez, where do you come from, What's your address?

Bardalez: I cone from Forest Pome i ‘ Courtenay: And do you represent any Crganization or you come as a citizen?

Bardalez: I came forward as a citizen Courtenay: And now tell as what you would like to tell us about the White Paper.

Bardalez: Jell to begin with, I have read the ’White Paper several t imes.
I have tried to understand it to the best of my ability.

I jot down a few things that I would like to make clear since I realize that this is a sacred document and there are times when we discuss with other people and we understand it clearly to be pable to explain, so I would rather say what I think first and then maybe if I want to add something ir.

or if I want to ask something, if I'm not in the logical manner, I would like to ask you not to hesitate to correct me.
I think that the Constitution should be a shield or a guide by which we will govern ourselves as free people, therefore it's of vital importance that we should question to learn and understand which will enable us tc know how to use it and also to accept and explain it to others, also there are those who won't want to accept it; for that reason I looked nt the Constitution and I said to my mind the Constitution would be enlisted with delegated power.
I asked myself whereabouts implied power, I mean those power that will give the national Government flexibility to expand delegated power of conditions that will arise in the country.

Mow this Government come about those implied power, well I road it through and saw amendment as stated on page 17 - 58 (a) and (b).

I said if so, I think 58 (b) would need a bit of amendment and you so care I could give an example.

Courtenay: ' Please, please give an example.


Bardalez: I realize that the delegate'; power is the power in the Constitution and there are times when things would arise and you have to I imply other powers to help this thing, let's say for instance we care for independence and.

Government pass a law where specifically the rural people, since I come from the rural areas, our Constitution would allow us to keep our shotguns as the present Government allow 8. us to do and finally we begin to have uprising.
How here on page 17 How here it says here as far as I understand, if I'm not clearly understood I want you to correct me, it says here that part (b) "in regard to the provisions relating to Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, the House of Representatives and the Judiciary, no amendment shall be made to the Constitution unless ninety days have elapsed between the presentation of a Bill and its second reading in the House of 9 Representatives and the Bill is approved in the House of Representatives by a final vote cf no less than three-quarters, so let's say we have less than three-quarters, no an uprising and we have to wait til ninety days before extra power could be employed to say let's collect all these arms before we have more trouble, you know.
So I want to know where these employed powers will come from., That is my question.

Courtenay: That is your problem.

Is there anything else you wanted to say, because we will help you with that, we will shew you what we have in that, is there any other problem you have?

Bardalez: Yes, on page 13 and 14 Ho .

41 it says that the House of Representative could reach a number of members up to twenty-nine, o © but then I want to know what about the House of oenate?

'Jill that number increase also?


Jell this is the one I mentioned a while ago.

Will the Constitution infringe the certain right of rural citizens to keep their shotgun for personal use as this present law allow us to do because we in the rural area need our gun to go into the bush.

You know with a change of Government, I heard some people talk that in Guatemala they can't have gun and suppose you go into the bush and you meet a snake, what will you do?

Grab it by the neck?


You know, I want t Grab it by the neck?

to find that out.

Now I don't know if I am in the right manner, but I want to find out these things, you know.

You can correct me if I am out of order.

You know I want to ask, I notice here in the Constitution, I am wondering, will one be able to give idea of hew the Social Security and Welfare Scheme within the Constitution would cater for the unemployed ^ople at their already old age.
You know, I read quite a number of books and attend some meetings some time and I notice that if we are going into independence then we have to firm and steadfast and there are tine when we are at meetings we have- a proposed national Anthem which we should respect and I ask myself again let's say something about that and I look at the flag and I say what about ours?
How will it be made, each colour and design will be symbolizing anything pertaining to our country and then I say again our national flag can stimulate joy, courage, and sacrifice for betterment.

I said therefore people should know how to honour the national flag by giving allegiance or treating it with respect.

10.

I think that’s the thing that was worrying you, right?
There might come a tine when we nay have to ra.-ke rules and say take away shot­ guns from people if that happens it woul-.. be page 7 that would apply, right?

So there is a recommendation there for dealing with emergency.

Then when we turn to the .ize of the Senate and the size of the House of Representatives, y<--u arc perfectly right, The proposals in the ’./bite Paper is that the house should grow.

The representation of the people should grew'.


There are proposal that the Senate should grow that it should remain the same size.

That is the proposal in the Jhite Taper and we would like to know what you think about that.

You think the Senate should grow along with the House of Representatives in proportion.

Bardalez: Yes.

Courtenay: In proportion, as one grow the ether one should grow, right - a balance?
’Jell, we are going to take that point because o I thought that was what you meant Then you came to Social Security and Welfare which was came contained in what we called here, we used c, big ’-.’ord for it we used 1 preamble' But preamble doesn't mean anything surprising.

All it means is introduction, you know, like if you are going to make a speech you make an introduction, You say good morning like I say good morning to you right?

So that is the way it is.
The proposals here start with a goo’ morning statement and that good morning statement would say something about social security and wel­ fare but we would not include any provisions here for Social Security and Jelfarc because we can't take all the laws and put them in the Constitution and you will appreciate that Social Security and Welfare needs to change according to the situation so that the idea,our idea, that is, the idea of government , and I am going to say it and if you don't like it you tell me if that this in the introduction, this call for social security and welfare.
But the Government of the day, whoever it is in power, must provide a scheme for social security -.nd welfare.

I think you know that the existing government of which we are a part is already starting a Social Security Scheme and it is probably, probably going to begin in our country within another two months, within another 60 days.

'Je are going to have cur own Social Security and Welfare.

Nov/ there is no point for us to go into the benefits of that scheme.
That is not the purpose of this exercise but t 11. that scheme has its benefits.

As a country grows and as the population grows those benefits will change and will become more or less as the situation warrants.

But what we would say in the introduction is that we don't want a country that don't look after its old people.

That is what we are saying.

So that who is in power must look after the welfare of the people.

That is the idea.
That is the idea.

That is the idea of the White Paper and I want you to tell r me notv whether you accept that.

Bardalez: Yes, that is good.

Courtenay: Alright, fine.

From here we go on to the National Anthem, flag, shield, motto, National bird, national tree; all of them very good suggestions.

Infact, that is one of the biggest criticism that one hears on the streets, iiwit this thing left our our national flag.
I note also you said thfit not only do we want these things but that we > want machinery to make people respect them.

Let me get it clear.

Do you believe that this constitution should set out our flag and anthem and so on.

Is that what you are telling us?

c on.

Bardalez: I expect that if I don't see them in the real works of the Constitution......... Courtenay: You would expect that it would be changed so that it would be included in there?

Then what about allegiance?


That was the Then what about allegiance?

last thing that you said and you said that this does not provide for allegiance.

Well, now I want to draw your attention to something because it is a serious thing, If you don't agree with this I want i!

you to say so.
you to say so.

Lock at page 8 and I want you to look particularly at paragraph 14 because what it says is this 'the proposals here in the White Paper is this that if you swear allegiance to another country you lose your citizenship of Belize even though you are born here.

That is a serious thing you know.

In other words if your allegiance does not remain allegiance to Belize you can lose your citizenship if you swear allegiance to another flag.

That is the proposal of 14.


Everybody that wants tc retain his citizenship must retain his allegiance to Belize or maybe you would like it spelt out a little clearer?

Bardalez: Yes.

I think so.

Courtenay: You think so?

Bardalez: Yes a little clearer.

12. fr-usa: a think that hr.

Bardalez is making a point that under 14 we only provide that you lose it and you require citizenship and not as citizenship.

That if you become a Guatemalan then you as citizenship.

can't remain Belizean.


'Jhat you are saying is beyond that.

That if you swear allegiance......... Bardalez: What I am saying is that like in order countries they c know the waying of their flags and the use of it.

Like if you are before the flag you should salute it, men should take off their hats.

I see that good.
I see that good.

I find cut that we as citizens of Belize are yet not practising these things, /.Flong that, when we have alien people with us if we don't begin to practice thorn the other people won't respect them.

Rogers: fir,, bardalez, if I may just clarify the proposal that you are really putting to the Committee, The words of the allegiance should be spelt put "I pledge allegiance to my country" or something like that.

That is what you are proposing is it not?


Bardalez: That is a part of it but I would like to say that we as citizens.going into independence that we should begin to do these things so that people can learn it.

■ Rogers: You want it included then?

The proposal then is that You want it included then?

you want it included in the constitution, the mechanics of what people should do and how the respect should be shown.

Bardalez: It is time for us to begin to do it Rogers: Thank yon.
I think we got your point hr.

Bardalez.

Is there anything else that you wanted to mention.

Bardalez: Yes one more thing.

Courtenay: One mere thing.

Alright, Bardalez: I wanted to find out when the constitution is really written in bold type, The people would like to have it in bold type and then underneath you know in light type you write a little bit of explanation so whosever read it can get a little bit of explanation so that they can understand it.

Courtenay: Good, that is a very good idea.


That's a good suggestion.

I'ius a: As marginal notes.

13.

Courtenay: Je will take note cf that, that's a very good suggestion, Thank you very much.

Je thank you for coming i.r.

Bardalez and we have certainly made notes of everything that you have said.

c tiusa: You are thinking as a teacher Bardalcz: I am a teacher.

Courtenay: Committee?


Is there anybody else who would wish to come before the C. Wagner: Gentlemen of this Committee, I want to begin to practice my human rights and my individual freedom by standing at a little distance away from you.

I hope you have no objection to my ' standing here.

; ♦ .Courtenay: I don't know how the mechanics stand.

w'e can get that tape recorder close enough?

Rogers: We want your voice recorded.

Wagner: You will get my voice.

.


Courtenay: Alright, The honourable Charles Wagner, Representative for the Toledo South?

Wagner: I think so.

Courtenay: Cf Punta Gerda, right?

■!

i Wagner: Well, first of all Hr.

Chairman, I delayed from where I was supposed to start by noting something in the out set of the White Paper which is under the preamble, I note with curiosity your definition of the word preamble as being good morning to somebody.
I think that there are a number of people who say good morning and don't really mean good morning, hence the good morning is not sincere.
The definition of preamble to an ordinary presentation of The definition of preamble to your sincere good morning which does not necessarily have to be sincere makes me wonder whether we should take the preamble as that simple because in the preamble it says that affirms that the Nation of Belize shall be founded upon 14. principles which acknowledge the supremacy of God, faith in human rights and fundamental freedoms etc.

etc.
etc.

i'otv, this particular part means tremendously lapse to me and to thousand of Belizeans.

I would like you to clarify for no if the preamble is as that simple no if the preamble is as as a good morning.

Courtenay: Honourable, let me be very clear that while we are let me prepared to try and help people to understand the constitution the question should be the other way around, I am sure that you are I aware of that.

How I would over, over simplify.
I would begin How I would over, saying that it is an introduction, I went on further to say well you start out with an introduction as in the case of, as I indicated as to the gentleman, I said good morning which was sincere Certainly I welcomed his coming before this committee, I am very sincere in that and the preamble in this case which is a preamble to a law is as you are aware in the substance of the law, but it attempts to set out the guiding principles upon which the sections I interpreted.
Now, that is highly technical for the layman but I am sure you understand all about it that the preamble is used as a guideline and as an aid in interpreting the sections.

This Constitution is going to be interpreted by the Supreme.

Court of Belize or at least that is the proposal.

The proposal, is that it should be so interpreted and if there is any doubt as to what a particular provision means a then they will turn to the preamble and interpret it in the spirit of the preamble.
Nov/ that is a lot of technical staff and I would not have proposed to put that to an ordinary citizen that way but I am sure that you will understand it.

'Jagner: Thank you very much for that explanation because I know that it will help others who want to hear that reeffirnation of its sincerity.
Nov/, gentlemen I noted that the Chairman sort of excluded me from the layman group but I wanted to assure you that I am acting in the capacity of a layman ’ecause I have had absolutely no legal training and this is a document written obviously by legal trainers.

I have gone through the Jhite Paper extensively and there is still something in it that is not so clear to me and so I welcome this opportunity tc be here this morning discussing the i/hite Paper with you eminent men.
This is a very serious document before us, the '.Jhite Paper which- is the proposed Constitution for the Independent Belize and I look forward to dealing with it at some future date.

15.

Now I have written down on piece of paper that I will give to you for your convenience but I wrote this down.

1-y esteemed colleague, I r„ C. J.
..vilez and myself acting on behalf of the United '-’emocratic .arty Toledo South division are very grateful for this pportunity to express the views of our members and supporters on this r-ropcsed terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize Although we do not support Belize's Independenc without first settling the Guatemalan claim to our country and without an assured defence by ■ land, sea and air, we do support Belize's Independence as soon as the dispute is settled; in which case a Constitution indeed would be necessary, 'with this understanding and with due respect to democracy, we now submit our suggestions for a true democratic constitution for an Indep,endent Belize.
le must however mention and emphasize that these arc views and suggestions of ordinary and humble lay people who have no opportunity in legal training and have absolutely no degree in political science.

It is a pity that a formal study of this proposed Constitution, led by an experienced states­ c man, wag not first organized, country wide, before its prescnta- tion to the public.

Je hope therefore that you will bear with us, as the suggestions are presented.
Firstly we would like to see a Constitution where the powers are truly separated, nolely, Executive which is the Cabinet, the Legislature and the Judiciary.

As it is at present, the Cabinet and the Legislature arc, as it were, merged into one; Cabinet members being in the majority in the National Assembly.

In this proposed Constitution, it appears that the Judiciary will follow suit from the fact that the Chief Justice shall be appointed on the advice of the Prime Minister.
Now, here 1 would like to mention that the Chief Justice appointed by the Governor-General on the advice of the Prime Minister I firmly believe is not sufficient so you have to say that the Judiciary is separated -totally from the executive The Prime Minister is the head of the Executive branch of Government and if his adviser is necessary for the appointment of the Chief Justice then it puts the Chief Justice as an appointee of a as an political person.
Now, I would have rather like to see the Chief Justice appointed by the Governor after consultation with the Prime Minister with the Opposition Leader and with the Advisory Council, tie now turn tc the White Paper and specifically to the section we would like some amendments.

The suggestions are, as I said, terms.


in layman language and are subject tc change into legal ■Je start with Section 4(i): This section should include "the rights of citizens to operate private radio stations and television 15. stations subject only to regulations for the purpose of orderly operations.
Citizens should also be entitled to express and hear diverse and opposing views in the news papers, radio or television new:; papers, Section 4(n): le feel that this section should make room for citizens whose lands arc acquired tc have access to the court to challenge the public purpose for which the land is being acquired.

Section 14: Je feel that Belizean citizens should lose his citizenship only by renunciation.
Section 16: ;<e feel that the appointment of the Governor- General should be after consultation with both the Prime sinister and the Leader of the Opposition or the Advisory Council.
Section 33: Under the Advisory Council, we suggest that the membership of this Body be appointed from citizens of the following categories: (a) Former Ministers <-f Government, Leader of the Opposition, Speaker of the House of Representatives and President of the Senate; c (b) Belizean citizens who formerly held the office of Chief Justice; Judge f the Supreme Court and Court of Appeal anc -ttorney-at-Law with status of Senior Council; (c) ?en other persons not below the age of thirty.
Six to be nominated by the Prime Minister and four by the Leader of the Opposition.

Section 40: tie feel that this should be deleted Section 41: We suggest that the division of the constituencies be made before Independence an!

the membership in the House of Assembly be determined by that division prior to Independence Day and that no more- than half less two of the membership mo re­ in the National Assembly may belong' to the.Cabinet at any one time.
Section 43: be suggest that qualification for membership of the National assembly should include ability to speak, and unless incapacitated by blindness, write and read the English Language.

section 58: For the amendment of the Constitution, we recommend that it should bo by not less than three-fourths of the membership in the National assembly, followed by a referendum.
Section 75: Je-suggest that the appointment of the Chief Justice be made after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.

Again, this is a slight competition but we want all the emphasis on this - on the Advisory Council.

Section 86: Suggestion is here made that the appointment of the Public Service Commission be made on the advice of the fidviscry Council.

17.
17.

Ve are raising no objection to the other sections of the draft Constitution at present although they arc still under study, 'de confess that the Home Jork was a bit too tight for us; but in the best interest of our country and our constituency we had no alternative but to do our best, the result of which we are happy to present for your kind consideration and of course recommendation to these responsible for the final preparation.

Respectfully submitted.

Signed Charles Jagner I-i.E.R.


Toledo South Electoral Division and signed Hr.

C.J.

Avilcz, Secretary Representatives of Toledo Branch of the United Democratic Party and the Constituency.

Like I say I have a few other points I would like to discuss with the Committee.

Courtenay: Al J right we are ready for you.


'■1 agner; Firstly I would like a little clarification on this Section 39 under the House of Representatives Page 13 and the last statement said that if the person elected as Speaker is not a member of the House then by virtue of holding the office of Speaker he shall be a member of the House.

That I presume will be without a vote.

Courtenay: Yes, the proposal is identical to what we have now.
Wagner: I also note that the proposed constitution have said absolutely nothing about the districts of Belize neither the fact that some mention wosld have been made about the districts, especially where autonomy is concerned.

We are assuming that the country is ready for independence so we also know that all the present system that all the districts are governed socially by colonial means.
And we have facts that everything is done from Belmopan all the decisions are made for the districts from Belmopan, How much you collect and taxes and all that, you can do nothing without consul­ ting the Minister of Local Government I would have thought that the autonomy of the districts would be taken so that it reflects that Belize is truly ready for independence.
I don't have it in words but I will make every effort to get the exact wording, what I would like to use, that may come up in the later stage.

Now page 4 (c) on the fifth line, it means all persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law.

Every person charged with a criminal offence shall be deemed innocent, then it said, shall be afforded an early and fair trial in public by an independent and impartial court sector.
Now after the word innocent I wo.uld have liked to see, entitled to bail and continue, shall be afforded an early trial.

Courtenay: Every person shall be entitled to bail including those people charged with murder.

18.

Wagner: Not necessarily so.

Like I say in my layman language sensing my observations of its onitments but to make it more detailed I more or less say you could holo me with that and my other friends there who is a legal man.
Courtenay: On bail I refer to paragraph (b) which begins on page 3.

Everyone has a right to liberty, except under the process of r law.

law.

In other words you can only be incarcerated by due process of Warner: More or less as it is today.

Courtenay: You are free unless the law finds you guilty Wagner: Another observation I would like to make is that it says shall be afforded an early and fair trial.
Now, gentlemen, with due respect to you, early Here, I hope will mean early after the Constitution is adopted and put into practice because if you know 1 we are supposed to be entitled to an early trial to date.

There are people who commit an offence, this year January and are tried next year January, and this is totally not human rights and things of that nature.

Courtenay: We are straying on tc implementation, like I say I need your indulgence.
It's an important document, this is the foundation of the country and it is the ultimate law Wagner: But you agree that the words should be left in Courtenay: Ch yes, Page 19 Article 39 Wagner: It says here that there shall be a session of meetings a of the House at least once in every year so that a period of six months shall not intervene between the last sitting of the National Assembly Courtenay: In one session and the sitting in the next session.
Wagner: Now I would have liked changed the word 'year1 and substituted with 1quarter-year1.

Courtenay: Proposal is that the word 'year' be substituted for the word 'quarter year1.

quarter year.

Alright.

ThatJ'sRould be a session every 1g.

Warner: I know that there is nr submission for an ombudsman in the constitution and we would like to recommend the introduction of an ombudsman, i.y last suggestion is that Senators should not be appointed but that they should be elected.

Courtenay: By constituency?


« » <■ Vagner: That they shoul 1 be elected probably by constituency to give the country, the districts representation in both houses.

That is not the main reason for my requestin, that Senators be elected however, that's the point but looking at the Senate as it is today appointed and designated upper house.

Number one it doesn't seem to me to be a upper house.

Hunter: It's a lower house.


Wanner: Number two Senators as is today appointed cannot turn back the lav/ as is pointed out in the constitution, especially money laws can be objected by the Senate and still be ratified by the Governor-General and made law, but Senators today that are appointed are mostly done, the way I see it, as favours to people who arc faithful to the winning party.
Avilez: It's an appointment which means that if the Senators do not really act in agreement with the party that appointed them then that Senator is to be dismissed subject to being dismissed by that same person who appointed, so it means that the man is there to meet the purpose of supporting the Government only, and not using their free will as is done in other cases as like for instance in England.
England is a more sophisticated system and they have the House of Lords there but then the House of Lords any time gives a lot of trouble to the House of Commons, but, so I would like to follow the system of the House of Lords and I would like to see our Senators elected here.

The House of Lord's is giving a privilege to a special set of persons by birth, This is why I say no to that system, but if we should have a senate, I think it should be elected to make them responsible to the people and not to.
the persons who appoint them.

Hunter: You said you want a Senate or you don't want a Senate?

Wagner*.

No I agree with a bi-cameral House but that they be elected No I agree with a instead; that they run for election, not in the favour of an election and lose their appointment as a Senator; I mean, I am not saying this to am as I ...

I'm not throwing any stone,- please hear me out I'm just using an example.

20.

Avilc.
20.

Avilc.

: I understand entirely, I don't think that is a fault that we can point anything at any body.

'■Mm* : That is well true, I le agree with that, but that is what I mean.

Nov/ that's my final suggestion.

Courtenay: Nov; I just wonder whether I - that is a joint presentation by Mr.’ Avilez and yourself and I am for a moment suggesting that you are not representing I.r.

Avilez fairly, but if Mr. Avilez is h’ere and would wish to add anything of that sort, he is completely free to do so.
Avilez: I simple want to say that I have nothing to add to it but to say that I speak on behalf of the people we are representing Courtenay: Thank you very very much l.r.

Avilez and I would like to make an observation here.

First of all I wish to express the Committee's gratitude to both I r. Jagner and yourself, you have o clearly taken a lot- of time in preparing your presentation and this is the hope of the Committee that people will have spent their time and that they will submit their presentation.
Ue are grateful as well that you have prepared your presentation in writing or at least the bulk of your presentation is in writing and we understand why the rest of it is not in writing, and I would like to assure you both that this Committee will not close its proceedings for some time yet and if there are other matters which you wish to submit to this Committee, you r.;.y send anything in addition in writing.
However, there is one point I must make and I must make it because I want you to know that we will have to strike from the record, the observations made about Independence.
That's not our business, right, we are given strict powers and it is limited to this White Paper; we can't go beyond that so that's what I want you both to understand, that's outside our terms of reference and therefore wewill have to strike that off the records but apart from that this Committee expresses its gratitude for the time and trouble that you have taken and we thank you very much for your presentation both orally and particularly in writing, because that is helpful, very helpful.
Anything else, please, anything else you want to say; either send us a note or appear at any other meeting.

Thank you.

Courtenay: Mr. tiusa would want to clarify one matter.

M»ca- This recommendation, Honourable, that a citizen of Belize should not lose its citizenship by renounciation, that's your proposal, right?

21.

Kvilez: Yes, but about pledging allegiance to another country, a second country.

Rogers: Cne question.


You propose that there should he an elected Council and I want to see hew this will work in what is essentially a monarchial system proposed in the Unite Paper.

If you have one party ruling the House of Representatives and another party ruling the .louse of the Senate, would we not require that both.

Houses the same.representation under your proposal.

I'oiv do we get around the point of passing a law in such a situation ■here we don't have a President.
This is a different situation, this is in fact ending a monarchial system.

You made some suggestions of changing it into a republic, but made a suggestion, we only work under a republican system.

Maybe you can enlighten this Committee.
Wagner: I am assuming that we want the best system for Belize In that case we are ready to be independent and sc I think we are net necessarilj to confine ourselves to all the practices of the ^monarchial system but.that wo should in cases where practicable, borrow something from this, something from that and put them together I know of two systems, republican, where you have an elected House, you have a Bi-cameral system both Houses are elected then you have a president.
In this system we will have a Prime Minister who will be a member of the House of Representatives.

Rogers: In order to understand your proposal clearly.

The point is to me very deep.

The constitution will give the Prime Minister a veto as practiced - the United Kingdom, that's what we are going to get, are you proposing a veto for the Prime Minister?
Wagner: That is the set up and if there is an elected Senate because a Prime Minister without a veto with a system as you say, one party ruling one part of the House and another party ruling the other will present confusion.
But in my view it will provide more check and balance there is not that supreme power in one party that appoints those Senators so that the way to break the dead­ lock you are proposing a veto by the Prime Minister providing they agree to that because it's on the basis of that we ask the question.

Then I think you have given us a .......... of the constitution in writing.

Uagncr: Thank you.

•?n ' '< ‘ o Courtenay: Your name please.

Arzu: '/illiam Arzu, Chairman of the i.en's Group.


Courtenay; That's Punta Ger right?

Alright far.

Arzu, tell us what you have for UG.

Arzu: Page 22 Section 86.Except for ex-officio members, the Chairman and the members of the Public Service Commission shall be appointed by the Governor-General on the a-’vicc of the Prime minister.

Before tendering his advice the Prine binistor shall consult with the Leader of the Opposition.
Jell, on that point I don't think that the Leader of the Opposition should be consulted.

on that.

Hot the way this one is behaving go I approve that, on 1 the ether int hero I want to know 1 the other y if the Governor-General will be electe.l or seme terms of five year term that's what I would like to know.
Courtenay: Well the proposal here Sir, in the White Paper is that he should not be would not he elected that he is the Queen's b. representative; that he has as much power in our country as the Queen has namely that the Queen must act on the advise of her fainisters so that .similarly in Belize the Governor-General, would act on the advice of our Ministers of Government sc that she is symbolic, the Queen is symbolic so that our idea of the proposal is that the Governor-General will be just like the Queen in Belize.
lie will be a Belizean but he'd be like the Queen and has just as much power as she has - ceremonials, that's the proposals.

The proposal is that since he is her representative she appoints him that he stays there until she doesn't want him any more right.

But when she is making her appointment she consults the Primo Hinistc-r because obviously the Prime Minister may have an objection so that that is the proposal here now if the men's group foci that that isn't good we want to hear.
Arzu: No, I go along with that.

That's all Courtenay; Thank you very, very much, far Arzu.

Just one question Kr.

Arzu.

1. ar in: You've made your observations far.

Arzu, but you haven't said whether you support the '.Jhite Paper?

Arzu: Yes, we do support the ,/hite Paper and all, the terms it has, except the consultation of the Opposition, he shouldn't be consulted, especially this one we have right now.

23.

Courtenay: Thank you very much.

Your name, please.

I»r« friahunm: Paul kahung.


o. Courtenay: And you live in Punta Gerda?

Mahung; Yes.

Courtenay: Do you represent anybody, or do you come as a citizen?

Hahung: Gn both terms I come in my capacity as Secretary of the People's United Party Toledo South Division, and of course, because I am given human rights I represent myself.

Courtenay: Yourself, thank you.


Mahung: And I would just like to comment that my remarks today e also comes from.some members of the South Electorial Division who will not be able to be here.

The Chairman of that Division, Mr. Lee Usher will come in to talk more but for some of my colleagues who are not here from the Toledo South Electorial Division I would like to say we support it.

Courtenay: Thank you.


Mahung: First I would like to commend members of the Joint Select Committee one, because as a citizen I sec it as <: high esteem of citizen I sec it a:.

; because as a democracy that citizens in our Belizean Society arc given this chance to give proposals on the White Paper.

Courtenay Thank you.

Mahung: I will be making few proposals but in the end.

As an individual I see this White Paper see as an extremely sacred document.
The reason being 1 am aware that this White Paper now distributed to people in Belize.

I sec it as a document that I sec it as contains the proposed terms of constitution for our independent Belize.

And this is why I see it as a sacred document.

Of course, see it as a sacred document.

on behalf of all my other colleagues of the South Electorial Division who cannot be here.I publicly in your presence, would like to give our support for the ’ihite Paper.
The reason being and I am going to generalize because there is so much and we could talk one full week of this.

The reason that because this 24.

Paper will contain the law for the preservation an as I see it so far, I've read it through carefully, the self promote preservation «s ft and I see our society as a very demecratic one.
Je support this of the principals of the basic human rights in this democratic society White Paper in full also I see it as a document promoted social justice for all of us in our uelizcan Society and primarily because it also secures the fundamental principles of freedom and human rights, and as I've read, it through I am quite sure many other people have read it through this what I think they can generalize from it.
And as you go through this document page by page and read it through carefully, a lot is said on my generalisation I made this morning.

I stand for correction Sir.

I might be making a mistake.

I hope I've read carefully.


I would like to recommend at this time and propose that something on cur three important national symbols be included, and by national symbols I am referring to our Belizean National flag, our jclizeo.n National Anthem and our Belizean National Prayer an’ they should be included in our proposals as part of the i/hite Paper.

Thank you Sir.

, C Courtenay: If I may' ask just one question i r. l.nhung before you go.
You've heard the situation today that there should be not only the inclusion of the symbols, but there should be tied to these symbols some form of sanctions and I use the word sanction very loosely, some form of first of all teaching the people respect and having taught them respect to maintain and see to it that the people do continue to have respect .Cor these symbols, './ould you support such a proposal?
Idahung: I support and I would like to endorse that and I am glad the way you use the word 'sanction' with loosely behind it.

Rogers: offer the words of the pledge and to include it in the Constitution Do you also support i-r.

I'.ahung a pledge of allegiance to fcahung: I do support and 1 endorse the pledge.

I am not really I do support and 1 endorse the pledge. '
a if it is not included in there because there is sc much to be fussy included but quite sure if it can be included I would like it to be included, I-iusa: And you support the prevision that a citizen can lose citizen- ship if he takes the allegiance to another country?

Nahung': I endorse and I support it.

Courtenay: Kame please.

25. hr.

Avilez: Calvin Avilez., Vice Chairman, Toledo Branch of the •- People's United Party.

hr.
hr.

Avilez: on behalf of the members ef the People’s United Party and the citizen of Belize and the Toledo district.

I would like to make comments in support of the White Paper as it is and as proposed as a constitution for the Independent Belize.

I do so because this White Paper I see as the result of the work of people who are charged to protect see as the interest of the people of Belize for the entornity, we hope our Independence will last.
We notice that in the preamble Section A of the preamble it states that the people of Belize affirm that the Nation of Belize shall be founded upon principles the supremacy of God , faith in human rights and fundamental freedom, reference to God at such an early stage points out immediately the goodwill and the fact that Belize will continue to struggle but without cur forgetting the Almighty As it goes on in the preamble which is an outline of what the whole Constitution is about.
I am happy to note that there is respect for the principles of social justices.

It clearly says that labour is not to be exploited 01' forced by economic necessity.
It went on to define and guarantee that will of the people will continue to he expressed through free elections and it goes on to speak about the protection of the citizens, protection of the rights of personal liberty protection of the law, protection from inhuman treatment, protection from forced labour, protection against arbritary search or entry, protection of freedom of movement.
In other words the whole atmosphere around which this document was drafted I am certain was intended as a protection to all the citizens of Belize.

And for this reason I as very happy that these guarantees of protection are embedded in this draft constitution.

And I am happy also that there are checks which will prevent the abuse of the rights and priveleges given by this constitution.
7or example on page 5 Section,(i) speaking about the protection of freedom of expression, which says everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression.
This includes the right to communicate, ideas, freedom of the press and mass medium of communication except as is necessary for defence, public safety, public order, morality or health or for the protection of the rights and freedom of others, because you know that whenever it is convenient for people who are ready to take these rights to the extreme, forgetting that they are at the same time trampling on the rights of others and I am glad that this constitution has a check 26. to see that all this doesn't happen.
I n ted with interest when an elected Senate was proposed as it were to create some kind of balance well, I agree with the constitution as it is because the ft balance ic there because it can happen that if there is a time, for example when one party could win every seat in the National Asaembly and every scat in the Jenate if they wore elected then the Opposition would have no voice nowhere at all.
This system as is gives the leader of the Opposition the opportunity to appoint somebody into the Senate whereby the voice of the Opposition will also'be heard.

And so tc continue speaking on the rights, on the citizenship I am happy and I would like the C mmittee tc make it clear, as clear as possible tc everybody that Section 12.

It says that on the day of the Independence of Belize, the following persons shall be entitled to be registered as a ci izen of Belize.
It does not necessarily mean that come Independence Day tomorrow everybody who is the spouse cf a Belizean citizen or is a resident cf Belize for the period of five years immediately prior to the day of Independence automatically becomes a citizen.

I am glad citizen that in the Constitution is embedded, that they have an opportunity to become registered as Belizean citizens.
All in all I see this •v sacred document as comparable tc any of the best Constitutions of the world and as Vice Chairman of the People's United Party, Toledo South, I am very, very happy that I have the opportunity to express my support for this draft Constitution.

Thank you.

Courtenay: Thank you very ranch I'-.r.

Avilez.

Rogers: '.'Iell.,.

l-ir.

Avilez' testimony has been so clear that I i-ir.

Avilez' '.iell hardly can find room for a question.

Courtenay: Kr.
Courtenay: Kr.

Avilez, thank you very, very much, Kr.

Je really appreciate that you took the trouble to come out.

Rogers: Gorda.

Sitting this afternoon here in the Court House at Punta Before we call on the next person who would wish to testify before this Committee I would like tc read into the O records a letter received from the Village Council of Jacinto Village in the Toledo District.
It is addressed to the Select Committee, Independence Secretariat Dear Sir: ■7e the villagers firmly support the conditions of the 'White-Paper1.

The terms are very much in aCTfi0"0"4 «■**•« the expectations of our villasers.

27.

Please be assured that we are solidly behind you and we wish that other Belizeans throughout the length and breadth of Belize arc thinking the same.

Let us now move forward to nationhood, as we take our rightful place among the other Independent nations of the world.
o Signed by Mr. Gerald Jilliams, Chairman of Jacintoville.

7e wish to place it in the records, this letter from the Chairman cf the Village Council of Jacintoville and so let it be so reflected.

Now the Committee will now resume its hearing and it is in order for anyone who wish to testify before the Committee on the White Paper before the Joint Committee, May we have the next witness.

Please state your name, please.

Mr.

Usher: Lee Usher.

Rogers: Lee Usher, and you represent?


Usher; Chairman of the Executive Committee, Toledo South Electoral Division.

I am also Councillor of the Punta Gorda Town ^Board.

Rogers; Yes, Mr.

Usher please continue.

Usher:.

Moil it has always been said that the Government of Belize communism.

As far as the White Paper is concerned it does not prove so because here we have on page 3 Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.
There shall be a declaration of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms cf the individual and provision for the enforcement thereof, as follows: and this one I should stress on because we all know that we all are Belizeans regardless of colour, race or creed.

Belize shall be entitled to the following race or creed.
human rights and fundamental freedom in : life, liberty, security of the person and the protection of the law; and it goes further to say: freedom cf conscience, of expression, of assembly and of association; respect of the private and family life, protection for the privacy of his home and recognition of his human dignity; and the enjoyment of property.

As far as this Jhite Paper is concerned and also the Government of Belize this Jhite Paper is proving today that the Government is not communist.
Again it goes further on page 4 Section (g) Protection of freedom cf movement which in communist countries we don't have this or they don't have this, This shall include freedom to move freely throughout Belize, to live in any part of Belize and to leave Belize and immunity against expulsion from Belize.

These are some of the things that I know that our Government, under the great hands of the Premier and his Ministers are not communist.

Then still it goes further page 11 Section 30 - O 0 28.
There shall be a Leader of the Opposition wh shall be appointed by the Governor-General.

Be shall be the member of the House of Representatives, who in the judgement of the Governor- General, is best able to command the support of a majority of those members who commands the support of the largest single group of s members opposed to the Government.

Nov that again.
Nov that again.

And on page 23 o here is this one where the Government is not taking away anything from the people of this country, and the people especially for the Civil Servants, Civil Services, teachers and so on to continue their good work.

It says here, pensions - that's section 90, and I know a lot of people who arc working under this section here are .

quite satisfied.

The Law relating tc pensions for members of the Public Service and to teachers shall remain in course.

And apply to course.


persons in the Public Services in relation to those already employed, already enjoying a pension shall remain unaltered, right.

All pension and rights thereto stand charged on the consolidated revenue funds of Belize.

Nc-v the discretion relating to pensions formerly invested in the Governor shall be in the Governor-General acting on the advice of the Public Service Commission.
Now I have gone far South, as far as Crique Sarco and all these people in that as village are in support of the White Paper.

As far as Crique Sarco.

As it has always been said the People's United Party is branded of Communism, but this White Paper proves that Communist is not in our present Government today, So therefore I support, I fully support the White Paper.

Rogers: Thank you Mr.


Usher, If there are any questions that members of the Committee, I r. Usher, if not on behalf of the Committee, I wish to thank you very much, The Committee is now ready to hear any other person who would wish to make a statement before the Committee, commenting on the Wiiite Paper?

Arc there any other person who would wish tc give their comments?

either in writing or verbally?

a Honourable C.L.3.

Rogers Adolfo Assi: Honourable C.L.3.

Rogers Adolfo Assi Honourable C.L.3.


Rogers Adolfo Assi: Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Adolfo Assi: Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Adolfo Assi: -29- Your name please My name is Adolfo Assi Mr. Adolfo Assi': help us with tho last name how you spell it Ass i And you are from whore Mr. Assi From the village of San Antonio From the village of San Antonio and you represent?

I represent - myself the './hite Paper that is issued by our Government.

Yes:,’ as a citizen Please go on i.r.


Assi According to the /hito Paper issued by our Government, I think it is a good idea for full Independence and I fully support it.

Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Good idea to get our full Adolfo Assi: Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Adolfo Assi Independence Yes Yes, anything else Mr. Assi to live free as we are living today Hon.

C.i..B. Rogers to live free as we are living I i I Hon.

C.L.3.
C.L.3.

Rogers today yes, thank you very much your statement will go down in the- records This Committee wish to thank you very much.

Any other Citizen or representative Yes sir, have a seat and tell us you name Emilio Cowo: My name is Mr. Emilio Cowo from Hon.

C.L.^.

Rogers Mr. Cowo: Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Mr. Cowo: Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers San Antonio Mr. Emilio Cowo ■ From San Antonio, Chairman, The Village Council-Chairman, of the Village Council.

I am from the Electric Plant.


The Village Electric Plant, Chairman of the Electric Plant.

And a member of the Committee Yes, please proceed, Mr. Cowo Mr. Cowo: .

-30- I am very grateful for me to present myself to you that the Constitution which is in the White Paper we support it.

We the supporters of the People's United Party thank you very much.

Hpn.

C„ ..3.

Sogers Mr. Cowo you.

wish to say something Mr. Cowo: Hpn.

C.L.B.


Rogers else So as I said I also agree to it and also the People of Toledo.

Thank you very much for your the Chairman of the Village Council and a member of the Committee and the Electric Plarf there and the Committee wish to extend its thanks to you for a very precis and clear statement of support.

You may report that back to San Antonio.

We thank you very much.

Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Any other Citizen wish to appear Carmella Bonell Hon.

C.L.B.
C.L.B.

Rogers Carmella: Hpn.

C.L.B.

Rogers Carmella: Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Carmella before the Committee?

Please do have a seat Can we have your name first?

Carmella Bonell Carmella Bonell and you spell Bonell How?

Bonell ’./here are you from Kiss Bonell Forest Home Forest ’Ione And you represent Forest Home Village Council Forest Home village Council Dear Sir; We the people of Forest Horae support the White Paper that has been well studied by cur able Government.
I as assistant Chairlady of my village I endorse all the movements of our Government and I can assure that the people of Forest Home is on our side.

We want to be free from colonialism, we want to be an independent nation in the heart of the Caribbean Basin.

I thank you.

Yours respectfully, Carmella Bon-11 I * Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers -—31- Thank you Miss Donell.

I don1t know hew to see this thing.


You have to tender the paper yes be- cause the lighting is not so good, but it is here and we wish to place on record the statement read by liiss Carmella Donell and it is directed to the Joint Select Committee and it says: Dear Sir, We the people of Forest Home support the bite Paper that has been -'ell studied by our able Government.
I as the Assistant Chairlady of my village I endorse ali the movement of our Government and I can assure that the people of Forest done is on our side, We want to be free from colonialism, we want to be an independent nation in the heart of the Caribbean Basin.

I thank you.
I thank you.

Yours respectfully, Carmella Bonell And a letter from Forest Homo too, addressed to the Joint Select Committee, and it says: On behalf of the villagers of Forest Some Village, Toledo District we wholeheartedly supported the White Paper on the proposed terms of a constitution for the independent Belize, which we feel that there should not be anything to hold back our Belizean Independence.
Forest Home villagers join hands with the rest of the country for a free and secure independence with all territory intact from the Rio Hondo to the Sarstoon and from Half Moon Caye to Benque Viejo and with God's guidance we must obtain our just objective.

Our submission to the White Paper are as follows:- (1) National Prayer (2) P-'ational Anthem ■ -32- (3^ National Flag Yours for an Independent Belize signed: H.L.
Parham, Forest Home Village, Chairman We wish that you will convey back and we will be writing to Mr. Parham the thanks of this Committee for a very clear letter of support to the Committee and the proposal that in­ cluded in the constitution should be: (1) (2) The National Prayer The National Anthem and (3) The National Flag.

We thank you again let the record show that this letter was presented.

Thank you very much.

Hpn.

C.L.3.

Rogers Any other Citizen wish to appear I « i Cayetano Ico Hon.

C.L.B.
C.L.B.

Rogers Cayetano Ico Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Cayetano Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Cayetano Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers before this Committee he or she may do so now the committee is still in session.

Pleas', state your name?

Please have a seat.

State your name?

Cayetano Ico Mr. Cayetano please help us with the last name.

Ico Ico, Cayetano which'village do you represent.

Laguna Village Of Laguna Village Toledo Mr. Ico please tell us what you want to tell us.
Well I just want to mention a few •words being that we are in this country for the Government, and I am very proud to say that we just hope that we have a free and Independent nation to become citizen of the country so I don't know if it is very appreciatable for me to ask some questions.

I don't know if you mind.

We do appreciate that and one way we are here to hear people.

We don't want to talk, we want to hear people* The ..'hite Paper speaks for itself.
33- But we would clarify clear up any­ thing that is in a citizen mind but, we don't want to make statements.

It is your day.

So do, what is it do you wish to say?

As far as this Jhite Pper is concerned I try to read it but I could not understand.

Cayetano ,Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Yes, well could you help him with Mr. Courtenay I I * Cayetano Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers some ideas: First of all, this is the White Paper that you say anything about defence.
All it says abdut defence is the re­ sponsibility for defence is a transfer from the Governor to a Minister of the Government of Belize.
So the first thing you will have to understand is that defence is going to be in our own hands and that's the first thing but as the Premier already announce, the Premier has said to the people of this country that the British are not going to go away just because we become Independent that have promised us to see us safely through independence and then when the Government gets the responsibility alo ig with our own soldiers our 3DF - which we are de- veloped we will be making agreements with other countries to come and help us, if we need it, if we may not need it, but if the day comes when we need it then we will be making arrangements for the uptights alright, but the thing is - the Big Thing is we will be making the arrangements that we want not the arrangements that the British want.
Okay, Yes Sir Thank you a lot and I have the play to join hands with the citizen of Belize to support the White Paper so thank you.

Well, we thank you Mr. Ico, let the record show that the Committee thanks Mr. Ico for his statement of support to the White Paper.

Thank you very Hon.

C.L.B.

Sogers Sinicfc Cho Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Sinicio Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Sinicio Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers -■*34- much.

You name please Sinicio Cho First one yes Mr. Sinicio Cho Of what village are you?
From San .-ntonio San ntonio Yes tir.

Cho Yes, I am supporting this Jhite Paper here, I want Belize to be an Independent Kat ion with all its territory.

Yes, Mr. Cho with all its territory.

We thank you for that clear statement.

Yes, that's what he said he supports the Jhite Paper first statement.

Second statement is that he wants Belize to be an independent nation with all its territory - important to all.

Je thank you very much.

Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Any other citizen wishes to appear at this time?
.......

Your name please?

Aluberto Cal Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Aluberto Cal Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Aluberto Cal aluberto Cal.

From which village?

Columbia Village.

Please tell the Committee, Mr. Cal in your own words what you think about the Jhite Paper.

On behalf of San Pedro Columbia, we support the White Paper, especially page throe, on Human Rights, and these on are very important rights.

Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Let me just get one thing clear, are Aluberto Cal Hon C.L.B.

Rogers Hon C.L.B.
Rogers Hon C.L.B.

Rogers Cirilio avila Hpn.

C.L.B.

Rogers you with the Village Council?

or appearing just as a citizen?

As a farmer and a Justice of the Peace.

Good; we must put that on this title.

i'/e thank you for a brief and clear statement wr.

Cal.

Your name please?

Cirilio ..Vila.


You give a letter addressed to the Chairman of the Joint Select Committee —35- Yes; the letter say's - Sir on be­ half of the United ./omens Group of Barranco Village, we have already arrived to the question concerning the new constitution of the Jhite Pa >er.

The United ./omens group of Barranco is strongly supporting the Government of Belize and also the i/hite Paper to full support to an Independent Belize with all its territory.
Signed; P, Nolberto, Chairlady of the ./omend Group of Barranco, Let the record show that this letter was entered from the ./omen's Group of Barranco, Now, Mr. uvila, are you appearing on your own behalf; or whom do you represent?

Cirilio avila Toledo Development Union; Christian H-n, C.L,B, Kogers Cirilio Avila Hpn.

C.L.3.

Rogers ./orkers Development Union, I see; Christian /orkers Development Union, Please proceed; and you are from Punta Gorda?
I am from Punta Gorda, This is addressed to the members o.~ the Joint Select Committee, Gentle- men; and the letter head is from the Toledo Christian workers Development Union, Punta Gorda Town, Toledo District., Belize., 16th February, 1981 Gentlemen the abovenamed Organization Exective Council and its group general membership, fulling support the Independence of Belize as annunciated on the Government Ehite Paper.
Near perfect as the proposed constitution is; we find that the following points need to be taken into consideration into account, if a real check and balance system is to be maintained.

1, Equal rights for all workers regardless of race; cread and/or colour; 2, A "workable Code ci’ Conduct for all members of the National Assembly and the Public Officers., -36- 3.

.. practical minimum wages for manual labour.

We wish to mention that only a secure arrangement for our Independence can be relaid upon.
But under no circumstances must any of our land be given to Guatemala for a settlement of the Dispute.

Signed: Hr.

Herman II.

Lewis and Mr. Cyrilio Avila, President & Treasurer, respectively.

Let the record show that this letter was presented by Mr. Cyrilio Avila, We thank you for very precise statement....

It's in order, you name please?

Eustacio Hernandez From where are you hr.

Hernandez, and whom do you represent?

Eustacio Hernandez Hon.

C.L.3.


Rogers Eustacio Hernandez Member of the Village Council, and I Hpn.

C.L.B.

Rogers Eustacio Hernandez Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers am from Toledo Big Falls.

Yes!

Please proceed I announce that we support the White Paper and propose to go ahead with the proposed constitution.

Well the Committee wish to place on record its thanks for your statement of support.

Thank you very much Mr. Hernandez Hpn.

C.L.B.

Rogers Any other citizen wishes to come before Santiago Cus Hon.

C.L.B.
C.L.B.

Rogers Santiago Cus Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Santiago Cud Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers the Committee......Your name please?

a o o o o o Santiago Cus.

And from where are you Sir?

San Miguel Village.

The village of San Miguel; are you a member of the Village Council?

No, I am just a citizen.

As a citizen that's all we want.

You have a right as a citizen, What would you like to tell the Committee?

Santiago Cus I would like to tell the Committee that I support the White Paper and the Independence of Belize.
Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers You support the White Paper and the Independence of Belize; that's clear.

We thank you very much.

Hon.

C.L.B.

“ogers Alberto Herron .ion.

C.L.G.3 Rogers Alberto Herron -37— Ycur name?

Alberto Herron.

From which village?

14$ miles!

I support the White Paper and the Independence of Belize, with all its territories.

Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Mr. Herron states that he supports the Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Valentina Coc Hon.

C.L.B Rogers Valentina Coc Hon.

C.L.B.


Rogers Valefitina Coc * Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Ron.

C.L.B.

Rogers Hermino Sho White Paper and the Independence of Well Belize with all its territory, the Committee would like to place on record its thanks to Mr. Herron for the statement of support.

Tell us your name?

Valentina Coc.

And from where are you Mrs. Coc?

San -intonio San Antonio.... ..please proceed!

I support the proposed judicial White Paper and want Belize to be Independent with all its territory.
The records show that Mrs. Coc supports the White Paper and Independent Belize with all its territory.

Thank you very much Mrs. Coc.

Youi' name please?

Mr. Hermino Sho, Chairman of Pueblo Village Council.

The People's United Party support the Independent of Belize and the White Paper Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Mr. Sho supports the White Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

You said something before that; You feel comfortable!
You said Mr Sho, its important that we take down this that the People's United Party feel comfortable with the 'Independence of Belize.

Let the record shot/ that this Committee thank Mr. Sho for this clear statement.

Thank you very much fir.

Sho.

Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Henrieta Enriquez Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers May we have your name please?

Henrieta Enriquez Henrieta Enriquez L -38- Treasurer of the United '.’omen's Group.

Yes, Miss Enriquez.
Yes, Miss Enriquez.

The record show that you are supporting the -'hite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

anything else iiiss Enriquez No Sir Thank you very much let the record show that the committee thanks Miss Enriquez.

Your name please?

Victoria Bol Victoria Bol San Antonio and are you for yourself or for another division?

For myself.

I support the ./hite Paper for the independence of Belize with all its territory.

Miss Enriquez Hon C.L.3.

Rogers Hon.

C.L.3.


Rogers Victoria Bol: Hon.

C.L.J.

Rogers Victoria 3ol Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Hiss 3ol would like to support the Victoria Bol Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Ponciano Bol Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Mr. 3ol Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Mr. Bol don.

C.L.3.

Rogers .

'hite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

Let the record reflect that and let the Committee record also reflect that the committee thanks Miss Bol for her very clear statement of support.
Thank you very much.

You are welcome..

Your name please?

Ponciano Bol Ponciano Bol as a citizen Yes, as a citizen Yes iir.

3ol I would like to fully support the /hite P'per and the Independent Belize with all its territory.

Let the record show that Mr. Ponciano Bel supports the /hite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory and let it also show that this committee thanks Mr. Bol for a very clear support.

Thank You.

Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Your name please?

Serapio Che Hon.

C.L.B.


Rogers Mr. Che Hon C.L.B.

Kogers -39- Serapio Che .if.

Serapio Che Silver Creek Silver Creek - Toledo and Mr. Che are you what?

Mr. Che Chairman of Village Council of Silver Creek lion.

C.L.B.

Rogers Chairman of Village Council *ir.

Che I fully supported the ./hite Paper of Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers ?

;r Che let the record show that you Independence support the hite Paper and Independence of Belize with all its territory and let th:?
record also show that this co;?

:ittee thanks Mr. Che for his clear support.

Mr. Che Thank you very much.

Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Domingo Shack Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Domingo Shack Hon.

Rogers Domingo Shack D. Shack Your nans Domingo Shack Spell that name, how do you spell it?

SHACK SHACK, ¥es what village Mr. Shack?

Village of Indian Creek - Chairman - Village of Indian Creek - and he is Chairman of the Village Council.
Yes Mr. Shack tell us V/ell we are also supporting the /hite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

Hon.

Rogers Let the record show that Mr. Domingo Shack the Chairman of the Village Council supports the ./hite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory and let the record show that this committee thanks Mr. Shack for all his excellent support.

Th;'.

nk You .

Your name please?

Mr. Benito Canti Canti - How do you spell it?


Canto cm ;ti Of what Santa Cruz Santa Cruz Toledo And Chairman of the Village Council Chairman f ti.o Village Council of Hen.

Rogers 3enito Canti Ron.

Rogers Benito Hon.

Rogers Benito Hon.

Rogers Benito Hon.

Rogers Benito Hon.

Rogers Hon.

Rogers Apolonio Sho Hon.

Rogers Apolonio Hon.

Rogers Apolonio Hon.

Rogers Apolonio Hon.

Rogers -4o-“ Santa Cruz.

Yes Mr. Canti Jo support the White Paper and the Independence of Belize and all its territory.
Let the record show that the Chairman of the village Council on behalf of the Village council supports the white paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory and let the records also show that this committee thanks Mr. Canti for his clear support.

Thank You.

It is confirmed that ho receives this letter.

Name Apolonio Che Hr.

Apolonio oho From Pueblo Viejo Pueblo Viejo - Toledo and you are Mr. Sho Secretary of the Alcalde Secretary of the Alcalde Yes Mr. Sho 1 am here s upporting the .
'hite Paper and the independence of Belize with all its territory with all its nation with security and fre^dom from Rio Hondo to Old Sarstoon and from Half Moen Caye to Jalacte.

To Jalacte - we understand what you mean that length and breadth of the country.

Hon.

6.L.3.

Rogers ile thank you very much for your Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Eladio Chiac Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Eladio Chiac Hon.

C.L.Bi Rogers Eladio Chiac precise support Mr. Secretary to the ..Icalde; Mr. Apolonio Sho Your na -,e please?
Mr. Eladio Chiac.

Chiac; and you are from where, Sir?

Santa Elena and I am the Chairman of the Santa Elena Village Council.

This is the Chairman of the Santa Elena Village.

Yes Mr. Chiac-...

I support the Uhite Paper and Independence of Belize with all its tor,.- itory.

C. .1,-3.

Rogers Mr. Chiac states that on behalf of —41- the Village Council of Santa Elena that he supports the Jhite Paper and ' ' the Independence of Belize with all its territory.
Let the record show that this committee expresses its appreci >.tion for the clear support of Mr. Chiac.

Thank you very much.

Please convey that to the Village 3 ft Council.

Yes; your name?

Pedro Pop Pedro Pop, and from where are you Mr.

Pop?

From Santa Cruz Village.

From the Village of Santa Cruz and you are-appearing as a citizen?

Yes; and I am supporting the White Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

Mr.
Mr.

Pop sup orts the i/hite Paper and Independence with all its territory, o vie wish to thank you for your clear statement and support.

Your name please?

Vicente Chun From where are you Mr. Chun?

San Jose Mr. Chun; are you appearing as a citizen.

Yes, as a citizen and I support the as a Jhite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

Hon „ C.L.B.

Rogers Pedro Pop Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Pedro Pop Hon.

C.L.3.

Regers Pedro Pop Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Hon.

C.L.B.


Rogers Vicente C un Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Vicente Chun5 Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Vicente Chun Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers fir.

Chun supports the Jhite Paper and Hon.

C.L.u.

Rogers Beningno Sho Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Benigno Sho the Independence of Belize with all its territory, dell this committee would like to thank you very much for your support.

Your name please?

Beningno Sho of San Jose From San Jose.

Are you appearing as yourself or representing somebody?
I am representing the Village Council of San Jose being the Alcalde of the ViJl~.--;u Council.

-42- Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Benigno Sho Hon.

C.L.3„ Rogers Hon.

C.L.B Rogers Thelma Flores Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Thelma Flores Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Thelma Floros The Klcalde of San Jose Village.

I support the Jhite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

Lot the record show that Mr. Sho supports the Vhite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.
Let the committee record show that the Committee extend its appreciation to Mr. She, alcalde of Ban Jose Village Council for a clear statement.

./hat is your name?

Thelma Flores /.nd from where are you?

Punta Gerda So you are from Punta Gorda and you are appearing as a citizen; right!

Yes; I support the h'hite Paper and Independent Belize with all its territory.

Ison.

C.L.B.

Rogers Let the record show that Miss Thelma I I * I I Hon.

C.L.B Rogers Manuel Ak Hpn.

C.L.B.

Rogers Manuel: Ak Hon.

C.L.3.


Rogers Manuel Ak Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Flores supports the ’Jhite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

<dso let it show that this committee extends its appreciation to it for a quite clear support.

Thank You.

Please your name?

Manuel ..k. Mr. Manuel ..k, and you are from where?

Pueblo Viejo.

Mr. Manuel Ak, Alcaide of Pueblo Viejo.


Yes Mr. Ak I support the Jhite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory and our British protector.

Let the record shot-/ that Mr. Ak supports the '.

'hits Paper and the Independence with all its territory.

Thank you very much for your support.

Mru.Rafael Coc Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Mr. Rafael Coc, J.P. and where are you from?

Rafael Coc Hon.

C.L.U.

-ior’ers Rafael Coc Hon.

C. L. 3.

Rogers Mr. Coc Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Hon.

C.L.B.


Rogers Francis Martinez Hon.

C.L.B.

Regers Francis Martinez Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Martinez Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Pueblo Viejo Mr. Rafael Coc is Justice of the Peace from the village of Puebl Viejo.

I am representing mydelf as a citizen of Belize, I am also representing my people of Pueblo Viejo to give full supo>rt this movement of the /hite Paper on the full Independence of Belize and «• all its territory.
x.nd we have the support of the '/’nite Pper, and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

You have daid some­ thing before that, That the People of Pueblo Viejo fully supports because everybody cannot be here today.

Je understand and we are glad you did.

/ell this Committee wish to thank you for such a clear statement and support and please convey back to the people of Pueblo Viejo.

Thank You.

Yes Mr Francis B. Martinez Justice of the Peace.


am completely satisfied with what they are doing here and there is nothing wrong with it, except that we sho .Id support the .7hite Paper whole­ heartedly.
He supports the White Paper wholeheartedly Regarding the defence Minister Courtenay made a statement a while ago that in the circumstances of Independence there will be a minister of defence responsbile for the defence of Belize and that the Premier has made a statement in the recent part saying that the British will remain us into Independence until we <3 have secured ouselves before they with­ draw.

So in fact the Independence we repeat is a secure Indepencdence.

That is all?
That is all?

That is all I ask about the Land Sea and nir.

Well we are looking up that too, the expansion of our defence capability.

Thank you Mr. Martinez.

Hon.

C.L.3 Rogers A. Mangi Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers -44- - Yes, your name?

Atnbrosine Mangi.

From where, and are you appearing on your own?

Ambrosine Mangi Elridge, and I -un appearing as a citizen .

husband.

On behalf of myself and my Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers On behalf of your family what would you like to tell the Committee Mrs. Mangi?
Atnbrosine Mangi lifting a supporter of the People's United Party I fully support the White Paper and have nothing to add about the White Paper and I wish that Belize will get its secure Independence with all its territory as we would want to have all our rights for ourselves.

Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Well it only remain for me to thank you ♦ I i Hon.

€.,b.3.

Rogers Victoriano Cho, Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers V. Chp Hon.

C.L.il.

Rogers V. Cho on behlnf of the committee for your clear statement and support.
Next Citizen, your name please?

Victoriano Cho, from San antonio.

And you arc appearing on your own be­ half as a citizen?

Yes, as a citizen.

Mr. Cho Go ahead.

I fully support the White Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

Hon.

C.L.3.

Rogers Let the records show that Mr. Cho fully Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Ilario leal Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Ilario leal Hon.

C.L.3.


Rogers supports the White Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory, and let the records show also that the committee extends its thanks to you lor your full support.

Thank You.

Next citizen......Your name?

Ilario leal from Santa Elena.

Santa Elena and you are here as alcalde of Santa Elena, Yes Mr. leal?
I support the White Paper ans want Belize to be Independent with all its territory because "they want the land of Belize to be free/ That's a real Independence Mr. leal.

Let the record show that the committee ex­ tent its thanks to Mr. leal.

Hon.

C.L«J, Rogers Domingo Chiquin -15- Your name please? "

Domingo Chiquin from Indian Creek.

Secretary to the Village Council.

I support the /'hite Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

Hon, C.L.3.
Hon, C.L.3.

Rogers Let this Committee show on record that Hon.

C.L.B4 Rogers Rufino Coc Hon, C-LoDo Rogers iir.

Chiquin supports the White Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory, de thank you very much.

Your name please?

Rufino Coc, Second Alcalde from San antonio Village Council.

I support the ■fhite Paper and the Independence of lelize with all its territory.

'/e would like to thank Nr.

Rufino Coc on behir.f of this committee for your support Hon C.L.3.
Rogers Porfilio Coc Your name please?

Mr. Porfilio Coc from Santa Cruz, First Q Hon.

C.li,3.

Rogers Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Frederick Coc Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers Frederick Coc -Icalde, I fully support the White Paper and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

He fully supports.

This Committee would like to thank you very much for youi’ support.

Your name please?

Frederick Coc from San Antonio.

Tell us your position on the White Paper Mr. Coc.


I fully support the White Paper and Independence of Belize with all our beautiful lan:': and not to give any of our land to Guatemala, Hon.

C.L.B.

Rogers He’supports and that is very clear 'statement.

Thank you Sir.

<3 t# don.

C.L.J.

Rogers Frances Rosa Hon# C.L.B.

Rogciis Frances Rosa My dear, what is your name?

Frances Rosa fr-'m Punta Eorda.

And what are you?

Sports Manager of United Women's Group.


I support the './hite Paper and Independence of Belize with all its Hen.

C.L.B.

Rogers -46- territory and hope that we could get Independence this year.

You are supporting the Rhite Paper and Independence of Be-lize and hope we get it this year.

I want to thank you on behalf of the Comr.ittee.

First of all do you understand the Jhite Paper?

Frances Rosa Yes.

* -47- HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Your name, please.

E. CASTILLO: Eli Castillo.

HON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS: Miss Eli Castillo.

P.G?

E. CASTILLO: Punta Gerda.

HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes, and you are appearing E. CASTILLO: I air.

a Member of the People's United Party.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: And.

you are appearing as a citizen.

E. CASTILLO: Yes, a citizen.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Citizen, right.

What is your position on the E. CASTILLO: White Paper Miss Eli?

I am supporting it.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Supporting the White Paper.


Yes, and E. CASTILLO: For a secure Independence of Belize with all its HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: This Committee would like to thank you.

I am territory.

thanking you on behalf of the whole committee for your fair support.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes, your name please.

D. PETILLO: Doming?.

Petillo.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: And you are from P.G.

too?

D. PETILLO: Right.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: As a citizen?

D. PETILLO: Yes, sir.

HON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS: And what have you to say about the White Paper?

D. PETILLO: Yes.

Do you support it?

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: She supports the White Paper.

D. PETILLO: And the Independence.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: And the Independence of Belize.

Yes.

D. PETILLO: With all its territory.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: With all its territory.

Well Miss Petillo I have to extend the thanks of this Committee for such a clear statement.

D. PETILLO: Thank you.

3 o C <* -48- MON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS• Yes, your name, please.

J. CUS: HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: J. CUS: Jose Cus.

Of?

Sen Miguel.

HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Sun Miguel, Toledo.

You are appearing as a citizen.

J. CUS: Citizen, yes.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Tell us what you think.

J. CUS: I support the White Paper for an Independent HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes.

And this Committee would like to thank Belize with all its territory.

you for that clear support.

HON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS: Your nrm.e, please.

S. GARCIA: Sebastian Garcia.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: From where Mr. Garcia?

S. GARCIA: Santa Elena.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: And you are appearing as a citizen.

S. GARCIA: We came to tie meeting to support Independence HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: With, all its territory.

and the White Paper.

S. GARCIA: F. J. MARIN: S. GARCIA: F. J. MARIN: Yos, with oil its territory.

Anything else you would like to say?

Well.

I an not going to say much.


‘Than1’, you very much.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Your name?

E. CKO: My name is Fla”io Cho.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: From where Mr. Cho?

E. CHO: HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: E. CHO: Santa Elena.

As a citizen?

As a citizen.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Ana ’..’hat would you like to say?

Do you support the White Paper?

E. CHO: Yes, it is good.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: And the Independence of Belize?

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes.


What- cro or not9 Do you went Independence -19- E. CHO: It is good.

HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: He- say.

'; he supports the White Paper and Independence is good, Well we would like E. CHO: to thank you very much.

'.

'hat is o.k.

HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: C.

CUE.

: What is your name?

Cast’'In Cus.

HOH.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Of what village?

C. CUS: F. J. MARIN: C. CUS: San Pedro Columbia.

Chairman of the Village Council.


Well, on behalf of the people of Toledo North I come to fully support the White Paper.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: On behalf of the people of Toledo North of San Pedro Columbia the Chairman of the Village Council , ”*r. Castulc Cus, fully supports the C. CUS: White Paper.

That is all, sir.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: And the Independence of Belize.

Tell me what you C. CUS: think.

about that?

I support that al so.

HON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS: And the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

I want to thank you.

Please convey to your people the thanks of this Committee and I trust in them.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Please sit low*, please.

Your name, please.

G. AVILA: Guillermo Avila.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Mr. Guillermo Avila.

Of where Mr. Guillermo Avila?

G. AVILA: P.G.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Punta '"orda.

You appear p.s a. citizen.


G. AVILA: A citizen and as a Member of the P.U.P.

Executive.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: And as who?

is ”e’.iber of the Executive.

As a citizen and he also appears as a Member of which one?

That ’ s Toledo South?

Yes,,.Mr.

Avila, please tell us your views.

o <7 “a -50- G. AVILA: I fully support the mite Paper thoroughly.

HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Eu tote.

G. AVILA: Go forward with the Independence of Belize.

HON.

C.L.B.
HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Go forward, with the Independence of Belize.

That'r: a clear statement and 1 want to thank you on behalf of this Committee for such a clear statement.

Thank you very much.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Your name, please.

V. CHOCO: My nene is Vicente Choco.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS Mr. Vicente Choco.

V. CHOCO: First Alcalde from San Pedro Columbia.

I am supporting the White Paper, we the people, and the Independence of Belize with all the territory and the security of Independence.
Thank you.

HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Well this Committee would like to thank you for such a clear statement.

We understand your point.

Thank you very much.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Your none, please.

M. AVILA: Morris Avila.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Mr. Morris Avila.

M. AVILA: I am a worker in the Punta Gorda Town Board.

I have studied the Constitution well.

To me it is quite in order.

HON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS: You have studied the Constitution well and it is M. AVILA: Well it's quite in order for Belize to get its quite in order.

Independence with its territory intact.

I fully support this as a Member of the P.U.P.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes, I undqtstand.

that.

This Committee would like to thank, you very much.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes.

Your name.

please.

C. AVILA: Clifford Avila; HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Mr. Clifford Avila.

Yes, Mr. Avila.


C. AVILA: F.G. k ♦ o a -51- HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes, Mr. Avila, P.G.

And you appear as?

C. AVILA: Councillor of the Punta Gorda Town Board.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Councillor op the Punta Gorda Toto Board C. AVILA: right?

Right HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes, Mr. Avila, what would you like to tell the Committee.

C. AVILA: Well, I ar.

here to support the Proposed Con­ HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Here to support the White Paper, yes.


C. AVILA: .. all the effort that the stitution oi the People's United Party.

Ministers representing the Government is putting into this.

I support this strongly.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: You thank the Government for the efforts that have beer put into this Paper.

C. AVILA: Sir, I present this on behalf of my colleagues.

HON.

C.L.B.
HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: And let the record show that Mr. Clifford Avila has presented this Committee with a letter and it says 'our Belizean History tell us that the Baymen Flag, the Blue and White Flag, has been with us ever since the Battle of St. George's Caye with the Belize Coat of Arms in its centre.

We fee].
We fee].

that the proposed Belizean Flag is the most appropriate flag for our country: the proposed Belizean Anthem written by one of our most abled writers is also fitting to be our new nation's official anthem.

We tie '-'embers of the People's United -party Toledo South Division have had an opportunity to thoroughly read the proposed Con­ stitution for an Independent Belize.
.A large segment of the Party including sone invited guests have held no less than three meetings at the Senator's office and thoroughly discussed the proposed Constitution.

We feel following Senator Lewis's explanation that we understand the contents of the proposed Constitution for an Independent «» Belize.

We, therefore, fully endorse it and request that the country's flag and anthem be an integral, pert of the Constitution.
Signed Clifford E. Avila, Damien E. Martinez and Cirilo Avila and Herman Lewis.'

bbonk you for this letter - it will go in the records.

Let the records show this wets yr counted and we thank you Mr. Clifford Avila for your clear support.

-52- C. AVILA: Th-.’nk you.

D. MARTINEZ: I support the 'Hiite Paper.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Your name first, please.

D. MARTINEZ: Damien L. Martinez.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: This is the Damien.

Damien L. Martinez of Punta Gord.-i.


And you are hereto support the White Paper.

Yes, Mr. ’-artinez continue.

D. MARTINEZ: I have a question.

I note on Section hl that elected Members after Independence will represent a constituency co'murisins no less than 2,000 registered voters and no mo^c than 3,000 until the number of elected members reach twenty-nine.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: D. MARTINEZ: Section hl?

Section hl.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes, I got it.

Section 41.
Thereafter the number of elee ted members of the House of Representatives shell be determined by the Elections and Boundaries Commission constituted under the Representation of the People Ordinance, dividing the country, from time to time, into constituencies in a manner which will ensure that each elected member shall represent a constituency comprising no less than 2,000 registered voters and no more than 3,000 until the number of elected members of the House of Representatives reaches twenty-nine.
D. MARTINEZ: How soon will this be implemented after Independence because realizing chat Toledo District presently comprises of.

about ’ , r00 regular voters in each HON.

V.H.

COURTENAY: D. MARTINEZ: HON.

V.H.

COURTENAY: division.

In each division?

In each division.

e o o p L -53- HON.

S. MUSA: By then you should ’.eve the 2,000.

HON.

V.H.

COURTENAY: Between now and then you have to do some D. MARTINEZ: HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: HON.

S. MUSA: registration, alright?

O.N.


You nay have enough population that were re­ gistered an' it will he on registered voters not on the population.

Mr. Chairman, I think the point should be maden that if you are slightly under 2,000 it doesn't mean that those people arc going to be dis­ qualified.

This is .just the goal to aim for that.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: In fact, the aim, the spirit of this is that it HON.

S. MUSA: HON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS: is more where the representation so wide and uneven like in Belize City where the Minister here represents a Constituency of some 6,000 and some the next Minister represents one of about 1,500.

Fourteen hundred.

So that's shy yon see him lean to you because he understands the problem.
It is to make represen­ tation more equal and as we have census particularly it's like the U.S. constitution that provides every time you find .more people living in an area you change the area that doesn't affect it.

The .Minister is quite right, The spirit of this thing is that.

How, let me read what you have given to me.


’ It is the feeling of both the Members of the People's United Party and the citizenry of the Toledo District that the Anglo-Guatemalan Dispute ought not to be settled by giving away a part of Ihe Toledo District.

But we feel too that Inde- pendence is a right and.

certainly not a gift.

We want Independence so that we may develop even more.

However, we want out Independence to be secure, safe and lasting.

Out defence guarantee must be 9 o O intact.


It is our ardent wish that we live in «3 peace with dur neighbours, We particularly want to live in peace with the people of the Republic of Guatemala.

However, there must be no land cession and we are requesting that this clause be incorporated into our Constitution for an Indepen­ dent Belize.'

Signed Councillor Clifford E. Avila, o e o P -54- Fr-ncis E. Martinez J.P. and Charles Alvarez representing the F.’’.P.
Toledo South Division and Chester Cabral representing Independent-minded people in the Toledo ''.strict, Damien L. Martinez also roprcni.nting th-, independent-minded people, South Toledo Division.

place it on record and we thank you for your support.

There is another one and this is specially from Mr. Damien, right.

Supporting the White Paper: trusting in the ex­ perience and efficiency of out' Premier, Mr. George Cadle Price and to his workers, I foci confident that the.
proposed terras of the- constitution is appropriate for a secure independence of Belize with nil i+s territory intact.

I fully support it.

I think it’s great - no land cession.

Damien L. Martinez.

We place it on record api.

we thank you very much.

D. MARTINEZ: Thank you.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes, your name please.

J. COC: lose Coc.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Mr. Jose Coc.

You are from where Mr. Coc?

J. COC: Laguna Village.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Of La-un” "illage.

What are you there?


J. COC: Chairman of the Village Council.

EON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Chairman o" the Laguna Village Council.

Yes, J. COC: Well, 1 would like to say that on behalf of my Mr. Coc?

people and I came personally to support the White Paper and the Independence of Belize.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: You support the White Paper and the Independence J. COC: HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: of Belize with all its territory.

Right.


Well, we wr-.rt to thank you very much and that is k clear statement, We understand you clearly.

Next Citizen please.

O o o -55- HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Your name.'

A. MARTINEZ: My n?.

?-; is Agatha Martinez.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes what you want to tell us.

A. MARTINEZ: T understand the White Book.

I read it over HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: You sun-port the White Paper?

A MARTINEZ: I want >ny Independence now.

•».<’.

over so I support it.

HON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS: Very good.

She wants her Independence now.

A. MARTINEZ: Wit!"!

all the territory.

HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Miss Agatha that’s clear enough.

This Committee thanks you very much.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes, sir, your name?

M. CARR: Mansol Carr.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Mr. Mansel, vou are from P.G?

M. CARR: I an •froT”.

Ftann Creel' but I work here.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: You reside hero?

That's whet we want to know.

M. CARR: Yes, sir.


You appear as a citizen?

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes.

Mr. C-.rr.. tell us what you think.

M. CARR: I ejii working with the Ministry of Works.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Oh: ■■-Ou are an employee of the Ministry of Works?

Yes, Mr. Carr?

M. CARR: ~ support the White Paper.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Support the White ’aper.

Yes, Mr. Carr?

M. CARR: And the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Mr. Carr, we want to than1'.


you very much for your clear support.

M. CARR: I hope that Cod may bless you all for all these hard work that you have done.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: 1 am glad for that.

Thank you very much and he gives Cod's blessing upon us all.

Thank you Mr. Carr.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Your name.

P. COC: HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Pio Coo -from San Antonio.

Are you .appearing as a citizen?

-56- P. COC: I ata here to support the White Paper HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: '' ■s.


Well this Committee would like to thank you and the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

P. COC: vc ■•y much.

Thank you very much.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: F. CHO: Your name?

Felipe Cho.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Of what village Mr. Cho.

F. CHO: I come from Gar Jose.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: What would, you Like to say about the White Paper, F. CHO: I thank the Premier.

Mr. Cho.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Hr.

Cho thanks the Premier for the White Paper.


F. CHO: Yes, s.ir want Independence for Belize with And you support it?

o all its territory and the dispute of Belize ayainsr, Guatemala safe and secure.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: What’s that about the dispute?

F. CHO: Well, I mean security.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: You want the security against the dispute.

I understand that.

Then I would want to thank you Mr. Felipe Cho Cho for your kind support.

F. CHO: Thank you.

Thanh you too.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes.


Your name, please.

F. MORO: Francisea Moro.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Miss Francisca Moro.

You are from?

F. MORO: Your village first?

Fourteen (.1-0 miles.

V HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: You support the 'ihite Paper you said?

F. MORO: I support the White Paper and the Independence o Belize with all its territory.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: rhis Committee would like to thank you for your clear support.

We understand you quite clearly.

a o o HON.

C.L.B.
a o o HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: M. SALAM: HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: M. SALAM: HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: HON.

F. J. MARIN: .

M. SALAM: HOW.

F. J. MARIN: HOW.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: M. SALAM: HOW.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: M. SALAM: HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: M. SALAM: -57- You.

Your name.

C.-.lam.

•’.nd you are from?

Sen Antonio.

Yes.

Mr. Salam?

You are the .Alcalde?

Yes.

He is the Alcalde.

Alcalde.

You must tell us.

I am the AlceJ.de from San .Antonio.

What would you like to tell us about the White Paper.

It is good.
It is good.

He supports the White Paper.

And the Independence of Belize?

Yes.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: He also supports the Independence of Belize with all its territory.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Your na’ie, please.

B. AVILEZ: Beatrlz Aviles from P.G.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: What would you like to tell us about the White Paper?

B. AVILEZ: I support the White Paper.

Thanks to the Premier.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Well, this Committee ■■.ants to thank you for your support of the White Paper.
Thank you very much Miss Beatriz Avilez.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Please cor::.- in citizen.

B. LEIVA: .Bonifacio Leiva from P.O.

I come to speak on the Paper for an Independent Belize.

I support it.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: This .’.or•.•■•ittee would like to thank you for your support Ho questions?

B. LEIVA: HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: o5 sir.

It's clear.

-58- HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: C. MORALEZ: Your name?

Clz.ru Moralez.

HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: You are from P.G?

C. MORALEZ: Vos.


I support the White Paper and the Inde­ HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: With all its territory?

C. MORALEZ: With all its territory.

pendence of Belize.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: We want to thank.

you Mis:: Clara Noral.cz, for your suppo:c Mo Questions?

So •■■re could say you.

understand it.

'■'hank you.

HON.

C.L.S.

ROGERS: Wh.-t i ■ -your name?

F. BOL: My is Fidencio Lol.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: AnC.

whor.

:- ere- you from Fidencio?

F. BOL: San Antonio.

HON.


C.L.B.

ROGERS: ’■os, and what do you want to say?

F. BOL: T would like to say that I support the White HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Anything else Fidencio?

That is alright.

You Paper.

don't have to say more if you don't want to.

This is what we are here for.

F. BOL: I just want to say that I support it.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Tbi~ Committee wants to thank you for your support for the White Paper.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: What is your n.-jne,- please?

M. SENTINO: Mary Sentino.


HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Mary Sentino from P.G?

Whet would you like to say M. SENTINO: I would like to say that I support the White to this Committee Paper.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: She- supports the White Paper completely.

a M. SENTINO: I ’.-onld just like‘to ask one question.

Citizenship.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Where is that page.

M. SENTINO: Page 8.

•To.

11.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Wo.


11 -■ 'on the day of Independence of Belize, every person horn in Belize shall Become a citizen of Belize.

So shall every person horn outside Belize whose parent Becomes ?.

citizen on independence day or would have so become' - what do you want to know about th.-.t -59- HON.

F.H.

HUNTER: Ho’.r you live here?

M. SENTUIO: -rom v.r-y young.

I don't even know the date I HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Well, your question is you want to know how you was Horn.
are qualified, Yes, you are entitled to he registered because you live in Belize.

There is a part more than five years and I am trying to find that.

But I know that it says that right in the constitution.

Yes, look at (b) any other person - look at 1.2(b) 'any person who has been resident continuously in Belize for a period of five years immediately prior to the day of independence'.

HON.

V.H.

COURTENAY: That is as a citizen of Belize.

M. SENTINO: :;.-s. HON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS: You got your citizenship.

Well, this Committee would like to thank you very M. SENTINO: much.

Thank you.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: J. CAL: Your name.

Juan Co.l.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: You are from where ”r.

Cal?

J. CAL: I am from Silver Creek.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Are you here as a citizen?

J. CALu Right.

HON.

C. L.B.

ROGERS: What would vov lir- to say about the White Paper?
J. CAL: I ar euprortiur th: White Paper and an Independent Belize wit.’- all its territory.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Mr. Cal wo understand your statement clearly and we wish to thank you.

very much for your statement.

iler.t citizen.

o o C-» a -60- HOII.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Your name, pl nse.

A. CASTRO: Anar taeio’Castro.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: And you -yro r’l-om P.G.

right?

A. CASTRO: Citizen, sir.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: A. CASTRO: What hrv ov to tel] us about the White Paper?
’.fell, T support the 'Tiite Paper and the social inteurit./ of Belize.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: And the social integrity, of Belize.

1 ’.rant to ■ quote your words.

That's what you tell us, right?

A. CASTRO: HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: HON.

V.H.

COURTENAY: yes.

Well we want to thank you very much Did he s.ty social integrity" HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: We have to put what he says - integrity.

Well, I want to thank you on tc-hnlf of all my colleagues here for your statement.
When you say the social integrity, what do you mean?

I ask you this just for the cl.o'-.rncss o" it.

I see they might not understand so let us make it clear.

A. CASTRO: I mean the territory.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: You mean the territory.

Ah, good, fine.

I have to get from your mouth.

Thank you very much.

HON.

C.L.B-.

ROGERS: Your nr.’ie, please.

L. WILLIAMS: Lloyd Williams, sir.

HON.

C.L.B.

BOGERS: Mr. Williams are you from P.G?

L. WILLIAMS: I am from Cattle Landing Village, sir.
I represent Cattle Landing.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: fire you the Chairman?

L. WILLIAMS: Not really, I am in the Council.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Member of Vi Have Council.

Yes, Mr. Williams, go L. WILLIAMS: I have this to say : we the villagers of Cattle ahead.

What have you to say.

Landins fully suppoj-t the Independence of Belize.

The White Paper which tells of the Independence of Belize was issued to ns and we have an appointment of studying it's content.

’’r.
’’r.

Lloyd Williams of the Village in consultation with the Honourable Senator of the Toledo District- Division explains that with Independ •• nc '■ there will be more development and a better lif for all of us.

We note, however, that the Belizean anthem and the Belizean flag are not in -61- the proposed constitution.

Wc humbly beg that they be made a part of our new constitution.

Thanks.

Lloyd Williams.

The Chairman had signed below, sir.

HON.

V.H.

COURTENAY: Very good.


Mr. Lloyd Williams supports the White HOM.

F.H.

HITIDTEE: L. WILLIAMS: Paper and that he would like included in the cnn- stitution the.

provision for the Belizean anthem and the Belizean flag -'.v- r.:: tenders this.

What is the ntuw: of th- Chairman?

Wayne Pratt, sir.

He.

ir; the -ctinv Chairman right now, Wayne Pratt.

HON.

C.L.B.
HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Any oiler question of Mr. Williams, if not it only remains for me to thank you for coming before this Committee erf making ■ clear statement.

L. WIT,LIAMS: Thank you, sir.

HOM.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: We than?-, you and we note your proposals.

Are thorn any other citizens?

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: M. SAM: Your name?

Manuel Sam.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Of?

M. SAM: Indian Creek.

HON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS: And are you appearing on your own behalf or as a are you a Member of the Village M. SAM: Council?

Yes.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: .Member of the ’'illage Council.

You are not the Alcalde?

M. SAM: No, I am the Vice-Chairman.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Oh!

the Vice-Chairman.

You must tell us man.

M. SAM: I am the Vice-Chairman of Indian Creek.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Yes, Mr. Vice-Chairman, tell us what you think about the white Paper.
M. SAM: Well, my people say that we appreciate it in supporting the White Paper.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: The people of Indian Creek really support the White Paper.

M. SAM: And Independence with all its territory.

We would like to go forward not reverse.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: They would like to go forward, not reverse.

That's M. SAM: That is all that my people say.

bad for an engine to go into reverse.

o 9 o -62- HON.

C.L.B.

ROGER-: Well tl-.t is a clear message from the people of Indian tillage.
that wc would like to th.-nk you for bringing that message.

We would.

like you to take back to the people of Indian Creek our sincere thanks for your coming here M. SAM: today.

Thank you.

Yes, si".

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: There seems to he no one else so let us read a letter from Senator Herman Lewis, Toledo South Electoral Div?

si >>n.
si >>n.

I have been directed by my Advisory Committee to make -enros- 'ntation on its behalf, to the House of Representatives Joint Select Committee, in connection with the proposed Constitution for an Independent Relit.

'?, '"ho bearer of this document, Mr. Chester Cabrr.1.

io an.

active member of the Senator's Advisory Committee.


The Senator's Advisory Committee numbering 15 PUP members, has met thrice since the publication of the Belize Government's White Paper, the purpose of which was to thoroughly study the proposed Constitution.

The Advisory Committee is in fill!

agreement with the contents of the proposed Constitution.

However, it is the consensus of opinion that the following points to be taken into account in.

the proposed Constitution: 1.


The official flag of the country be the present proposed flag of Belize; 2.

The official anthem be the present proposed Rational Anthem; 3- In the past, members of the PUP Government have been accused of using their offices for their own selfish gain.

We propose that a strong Code of Conduct be established: h. ’any civil servants don't seem to know how to approach and talk to members of the public , when they go to do business at Government Offices.
L -63- '-’e pronose that n. system be established, whereby such civil servants can be reassigned to posts which will entertain such unbecoming attitudes.

Please put this bn the records at the request oi' the Senator.

’’embers it seems that we have cone to the end of the day.

HON.

S. MUSA: There is Senator Chun.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Any other person wishing to cone to make represen­ tation before t'r Committee closes its hearing, nlease appear.

Your name, please.

J. CHUN: Juan Chun.

HON.

C.L.B.


ROGERS: And you err ■ a Senator?

J. CHUN: Yes, sir.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Senator Juan Chun, what would you like to tell the J. CHUN: I cone to tell the Committee that I fully support Committee on the White Paper.
the proposed terms of a Constitution of Belize's Independence .and also to put three other import ent proposals on the copy of this White Paper: 1) 2) 3) National Anthem; Belizean flag; and The Belizean National Prayer; to continue the process on the Independence of Belize.

I am so happy this morning that we had very well people that came to talk on the White Paper from Toledo North and also from Toledo South.

o o HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: We did not lack support.


J. CHUN: I think the Committee is working hard and I think they have been working hard lone ago and we can achieve this goal of Independence this year.

HON.

C.L.B.

ROGERS: Thank you Senator.

On behalf of all the Members here we would like to thank o you for your clear statement and support and the support of the people which you represent.

Please convey to them cur thanks.

Thank you very much.

Please convey to then cur thanks.


Well, we had a good turn out.

We started from 10:00 a.m. this morning until 12:00.

We resumed at 2:00.

We now adjourn our sitting in Punts.

Gerda and wish to state and share on behalf of my colleagues that we seem to have had a good cross-examination of the population of this district from all walks -64- of life, from the organizations and "ost import.on ly from people who are citizens.
This Committee w.dl like to go on record thet it has started off its work with a very interestin'; and healthy response, Vo now adjourn and the next sitting will be at 9:00 tomorrow in Belize City.

Please, all Members be there at the City Hall.

Prj.ize City, We would like all preparations be made for that meetin-p The Committee stands adjournca.
Meeting adjourned at h:00 p.m. L Appendix 3 (1) Frci.i: Che COLA-iu JO.<M CGNSflfJCi'iCY, ..'he C0L3JU 30JCI CUNSCIf’JBi'ICY, -he Joint .--elect Coi.iraittee, Punta Gorda -'own.

Coledo district, 3ELI 53, C3HCXAL <ICA .

Cert,is of a Constitution for the IIOCPziDCirC 33LI1E and, .LIVING studied Government's Jhite Paner, the Proposed .13C0GNI illiG that the present and previous Government.'.
; of -elize have been consistent in the preservation of the principles of basic luraan -ights in a democratic Society, • <3 33LI53AHS of Coledo North give our unending support to this .
'lite Paper which promotes social justice and which secures the fudaraental principles of freedom, symbols, './2 therefore recommend that the three important 1) Che Belizean ilation.il Flag 2) Che Belizean National ..ntaera 3) Che Belizean National Prayer be embodied as part of the B’hite Paper, the Proposed Cerras of a Constitution for the Independent Belize.
□an Pedro Columbia Ahunberto Cal, Justice of Peace Francisco Ack, Big Falls Village Pedro Checo, ..Icalde - Silver Creek ..Ivaro Bui , Pueblo Viejo Village G. Calera, San Antonia Village Bionisia Salem, ..an ..ntonia Village Gv/en Jc-rke'h, Crique Croso 13 Miles i.iguel Cush, Second Alcalde, Aguacate Village John Cucul, Aguacate Village Santiago Lakin, Aguacate Village Juan Chee, Aguacate Village narcos -Lak, Aguacate Village Feliz Cucul, Aguacate Village Pablo Ack, -guacate Village Jose Cab, Aguacate Village Juan Sec, .Hue Creek Village Aleandro Coc, Blue Creek Village Pedro Ack, Blue Creek Village idguel Coc, Blue Creek Village Louis Can, alcalde, Blue Creek Village Asiquel Cucul, Blue Creek Village Juan Cus, .Blue Creek Village Appendix B-2 San Pedro Columbia Toledo district 18th February 1981.
Joint Select Committee Belmopan Cayo District.

Dear Sir, The San Fodro Columbia Lands Committee has fully supported the National Flap, national anthem, national prayer and the Constitution for the Independent Belize and with all its territory intact.

SGD.
SGD.

Castulo Cus Santiago Coc Short Title (Col-FasX Assn) Oaupati n f n Alumborto Cal Alumberto Cus Alfonso Chen Andres Cus Vecente Choco Santiago Coc Julio Sanchez Isidro Lara Luis Cus Pedro Salam Leonardo Acai Slyvcstrc Cal Castulo Is Geronimo Coc J Appendix B-3 San Pedro Columbia, Toledo District, Belize, Central America.

National Assembly.

Belmopan Cayo District, Belize Central America.

Dear Sir, I have acknowledge receipt of your letter dated the 3rd February 1981.
It is understood that the National Assembly has appointed a Joint Select Committee to consider proposals for the Constitution for the Independent Belize.

This Independence Constitution will Guarantee All ,Equal Human Rights From All Four Corners of Belize Regardless of Races.

Therefore, to this White Paper The Columbia Farmers Association are in full supporting For our lovely National Flag, National Anthem, National Prayer and the constitution Of Belize, a Security Independence with all its territory.
.I am enclosing the names of the Columbia Farmers Association whit (sic) their mighty support of this White Paper.

Yours truly, SGD.

Castulo Cus Chairman of Village Council.

Alcalde Vicente Choco I c* t?

!