Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697648588496.pdf (Belize)
• " ■ £ o r * U' • i- ;• >-;r < O *• i f) * B I L !

Z i JOSNT SELECT COMMITTEE together with the proceedings of the Committee, evidences and appendices before the Joint Select Committee on “The White Paper — Proposed Terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize’’.

X Appointed by Order of the House of Representatives dated the 29 January 1981 and of the Senate dated 3 February 1981.
V H b e Second Meeting nf the Joint Select Committee appointed to.examine, consider and report an the White Raper - Proposed Terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize, held in Belize City on Tuesday, 17th February, 1981 VERBAT IF.

9: OB a.m. ?

Chairman: The Committee is authorised by resolution passed in the House and Senate of the National/Assembly and directed this Committee to the opinions of the Belizean people before presenting its final report canvass to the National Assembly.
Hon CLB Rogsrs: The meeting of the Joint Select Committee of the House of Repre­ sentatives and Senate will now commence.

The Committee is authorised by resolutions passed in the House and Senate of the National Assembly which directed this Committee to canvass the opinion of the Belizean People before presenting its final report to the National Assembly.

This Committee will now he in session.

If a person is willing to comment on the White Paper, they must confine themselves to the White Paper.
It is now in order that any citizen or representative of organizations in Belize may now appear before the Committee to comment on the White Paper.

Is there anyone who would like to come before the Committee to comment on the White Paper?

Come a bit nearer to the table and state your name, clearly.

P>Castillo: My name is Armando Castilla.

Rogers: Mr Armando Castillo, the first person appearing before the Committee this morning, fir Castillo, where do you live?
Castillo: Rogers: I live at 137 Corner lex and Amara Avenue, hr Armando Castillo of Corner hex and Amara Avenue, and do you Castillo: Rogers: Castillo: Rogers: represent any organization hr Castillo?

No.

I do not represent any organization.

You represent as a citizen.

As a citizen.

What would like to tell the Committee on the White Paper?

Castillo: I would like tn bring Rogers: Castillo: You better sit down.
I would like to bring forth that when reading the White Paper on the Proposed Term of the Constitution for the Independent Belize, there are no mention of linguistic rights.

Rogers: Castillo: Linguistic Rightsl Am I quoting you correct?

Yes, Sir, and I would like to point this oversight to the Committee.

A linguistic right is an inalienable right and should be inserted in our constitution so ns tn protect the various culture, language and rights that make up Belize.
Especially tn protect the native Indians Rogers: Cas tillo: from encroachment of their land and language.

Did I get you correctly?

Land and language?

Yes• Truly, we don't want ........

I IL tit.

Rogers: Castillo: Rogers: Castillo: Rogers: Castillo: Will this be under the same heading of linguistic rights?

2 It would be under lands?

Lands for the .... Linguistic rights 3ust a moment.

Because as we know that the constitution have no amendment so that our native Indians can he put on reservation.
There is no law in on there that can stop the present people from putting the Indians reservation in our constitution.

I would like it to be amended and to propose wisely Rogers: Yes , fir Castillo , Is there anything else you would like to tell the Castillo: Committee?
Well, s land linguistic right as wc know that there are four languages that made up Belize: one is the Spanish language, one is the English language also I would like to be inservity because the constitution to the Spanish language has an equal right as the English Language and to be made into a an official language as the English language.

Rogers: Castillo: Yes.

Anything else, t r Castillo?


Those are the few points plus I hove something else on the qualifi­ cations on membership and non-qualifications on membership of the National Assembly.

Rogers: Castillo: Qualifications on membership of the National Assembly.

Yes.

I came under the heading of dis-qualification.


I feel that a person should be disqualified from election as a member nf the House of Representative or appointment to the Senate if the court, if he contravene the act of etiquette., committed in public places or at that contravene to the spiritual I'm talking about morality act welfare of the country.

Rogers: That he should be disqualified.

Castillo: Yes.

□r any other morality act that are contravine to the spiritual welfare of the country.
Rogers: Castillo: Rogers: Hon F 3 Marin: Yes, Hr Castillo, is that .... Those are the three points that I have at the present moment.

Do any member of the Committee wish to question f r Armando Castillo?

Yes, Mr Chairman, I make reference to the statement he made on Rogers: Harin: Castillo: Harin’: Castillo: encroachment to their land.

Yes.

□kay, exactly what do you mean by this?


Well, I meant that I do not want to sec the native Indians put on reservation for the brt?cd nf refugees nr immigrants of the country.

— —dnp’ '■ ■ ■ I do not support the reservaliar reservation.

•^X cd to keep their culture and language to be intact.

Marin: You note that the present system the way it is, ... dn not ... Castillo: to the development for all the reservation concept.

Yes.
Yes.

i. J 3 Marin: find you replied that the result to the country, the Toledo District in particular, is the only district that has such an arrangement.

There are mixed tilling advantages and you will find that the older heads still... O o Castillo: Marin: Castillo: Karin: Castillo: 0 What I'm to saying is that the land that are with them shouldn't be given any other people, since we need them too.
The land that are them like in Toledo on their behalf was with distribution to be distributed only to their, their mm....set.

Will .... point the formation, Mr Chairman.

That exists as a right.

Well, I haven't seen it in the White Paper that is why I brought it up.

You haven't seen it in the ....

In the White Paper, because I believe that it should be inside our constitution.

Rogers: White Paper provides a title to lend, to every citizen regardless who they are.
The concept of reservation does not apply to Belize.

When we soy reservation here, it is not like the United States reservation with the aliens nor the South /Africans reservation with the Africans.

It is, it's protection and that what the Minister explained to you, is that if they want it, the older ones wont to keep on a comp or reser­ vation and the younger ones want title to the land so that they can use it as collateral with the banks.
In other words, they would not have any limits tn their privileges as other citizens have.

Uhy should that affect the Indians to be able to come titled to the land and the Indians does not have the right to a title to land so that constantly everybody should have the right to property, That's the Indian's case.

Castillo: Rogers: I agree with the lihite Paper.


Dell, Ft Castillo, we have listened to you and we have taken notes of Castillo: your submissions to the committee and if there arc any other comments Yes, I would like to say that any land which is presently in the hands of nationals arc to be alienated?

I wouldn't say that.

I'm not saying that anyone Rogers: Yes, I'm saying the present part nf lands of ours ... Are there any questions?
If there is none, then this committee thank you for appearing before it.

Yes, is there any person or persons wishing to como before the committee end comment on the Lihite Paper?

Can you kindly give your name, sir.

Nicholas Pollard Sr: Nicholas Pollard Sr. representing the Save Belize Movement.

Hon CLB Rogers: Representing the SAUL Belize Movement.

Pollard: Rogers; Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: The Save Belize Movement.

And your address?

No.

3 Central American Boulevard Mr Pollard you may sit.
Thank you.

Mell, Mr Pollard, what would you like to tell us with regard to the Lihite Paper?

=J I ■ A ■ ' > 4 Pollard: To start with the White Paper itself, Sir, the opening Rogers: Pollard: statement of constitution of Belize,etc.

The Preamble.

The Preamble shall commence with the preamble which should state that the people of Belize have, I would like to add that the Government and people of Belize".

On page 2 subsection (e).

Rogers: Pollard: Subsection (e).

Yes?


Third line, beginning with "which eliminate", I would like to add the words "which eliminate political, economic 0 Rogers: and social privilege".

...."which eliminate ecororaic"; economic"?

Pollard: Before "economic".

"political" before It should now read and social privilege" privilege".

On page 4. which eliminate political, economic instead of just "economic and social Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Page 4 Subsection (c) "Protection of the Lav/".

Yes.
Yes.

Beginning at the seventh line "impartial court observing the laws of natural justice".

I would like to add the worcb, wherever it fits best, "the common law of Britain and Commonwealth".

Rogers: Pollard: So that would be Commonwealth Law.

That all the natural justice and Common Laws - the Common Law has just only come to thought - of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Commonwealth.

Rogers: That1s the ..... Pollard: The Common Law of Great Britain.
I think the correct phraseology is Great Britain, Northern Ireland and other Commonwealth.

Rogers: But is the Common Law of that.... Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Yes?

Constituents.

Which applies, applies equally to Belize, of course, at the present time.

Subsection (f) on the same page.

"Protection against arbitrary search or entry".


I note that title of this subsection is "protection against arbitrary search or entry", but there is nothing like that described in the body of the paragraph.

e Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rgjgers: Pollard: I think it's a misnomer.

5 That is the thought, that the mm, uhr-t i- described in the body bf the paragraph, there is no mention of arbitrary search nr entry in the body of the paragraph.

Yes.
Yes.

I see your point, find with regards tn the beginning of the third line, morality or health, Same page?

Same page, sir.

Same sub-section.

Same which was sub-section (f) Page A, sub-section (f), line three of the paragraph morality or health.

Yes.

I made it known here, sir, a question mark as to what it means.
I 1 VC got to clear uhat it implies, morality or health, Since moralities differ according to peoples, religions and spititual concepts, might be moral for the Christian might not be moral for the Muslims or for the so that when you get the light of the area of morality.

so that Uh at It's hard to fix a constitution which will treat suit the morals of Rogers: any denominations nr religious groupings.

Yes .

Pollard: I just put a question on it.

Rogers: On what?
Rogers: On what?

Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers:' □n morality.

find this is law is relating to that?

Yes.

That includes the law made in the interest of defence, public safety come under morality or health?

Yes.

Uorality being e work which esn be .... Well, it is the law.

Pollard: Yes.

Rogers: Pollord: It's mode for, that it is saying you will hr; subject to arrest.

Yes.
Yes.

Now, with regard to (g) which states that this would include freedom tn move freely throughout on the some paper, the very bottom, Belize, to live in any part of Belize, "nd to leave Belize, and to Rogers: Pollard: Regers: Pollard: Rogers: return to Belize, sir, should be included.

And to return tn Belize.

And to return to Belize.

find continued on the same ... To Relize you can return.

Yes?
Yes?

Continuing on the same nub-sectinn, continued on page 5 immunity against expulsion from Belize, this should not include undesirable aliens.

Immunity against expulsion should not include undesirable aliens, mho are subject to the?

same constitutions while living in this country.

Therefore, they would he expulsion.

Rogers: Pollard: So, they should not be...

They should not be.

Right.

1 ■■■ .

; ■ ■ I ?


■ - * - I e o e o » 6 Rogers: I think, If I may venture into that, that this law is talking about citizens, to protect + he rights of citizens and that no one should be able to expel a citizen from his own country.

I don't know if you agree with that, sir.

Pollard: I think that the intention, quite clear, but it's not stated, word 'citizen' I think dons not appear in the entire section.
any event .... appear The find in ■ Rogers: Out I take your word for it.

I think you ore being dutiful and you' ve contributed that one another one you gave, us, I think was very help­ ful.

Go ahead.

Pollard: Thank you, sir, Continuing that (i) on the same page (h) (i), o Protection of freedom nf expression, line <i, I think it was the inten­ Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers Pollard: tion to se.y 'Mass media' instead of mass medium.

Mass media, plural.

Yes.


find continuing on the same lint:, 'except ns is necessary' may I read the whole sentence, this include the right to communicate ideas, freedom nf the press and moss medium of communication except ns is moss necessary for defence, etc., to my mind, sir, the way it's put there I think the intention is clear but th;; way it's put is rather vague.

it can be better put, 'fis is necessary' it doesn't say to bo necessary.

I ask the question ’Uhrt is necessary'?


It doesn't say there, that it is ambiguous thing, vague at least.

Gtylistics difference.

Yes.

for instance....

It's a question, actually of putting a subject to that 'What is necessary' because it spanks of right tn communicate ideas and then it comes ..as is necessary, But it doesn't soy what is necessary.

Rogers: Pollard: IJhy do you say so?

Because if they, the subject begins with the.


rights to communicate cannot be the subject that th:; same, that phrase 'as is necessary'.

That has to he clarified.

Going down to (j) the same page.

Rogers: Pollard: (3) Protection of Freedom nf fissembly and so an, ciatinn restricting the adni.

'ion of members based on race or colour, or to prohibit any nsso- or creed, may I ask that question, race, colour, or creed.
Rogers: Pollard: Fingers: Pollnrd; Rogers: Pollnrd: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Lihich word?

The very lest word.

Race, colour or creed?

Or creed, nt the end of (j).

On page 6, Sir, sub-section (n) Protection from deprivation of Yes.

property.

No property nr any interest therein should rood 'no pro­ perty nor any interest1 not or.

Yes?

I think it's intended that hath should he negative .

Yes, r.r Pollard.

Going on tn page 7, Sir,' Page 7.


I r 7 Pollard: I would like tri see added, sir, on section f>, sub-section (c) Public Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Poll ord: Emergencies Sub-section (c) There is in force .... That would be section 7?

Yes, sir.

Section 7, sub-section (c) there is in force a resolution c of the legislature declaring that democratic institutions in Belize are threatened by subversion.

I would like to odd there, sir, such subversion to be proved in a court of lew.
Rngersi Pollard: Such subnersion tn be proved in a court of law.

Yes, and not, well you don't have to put this in law, simply explain and made it tn he left resolution of a. legislature or otherwise, since o 0 Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: a legislature is not a the person guilty nf a subversion.

Loll, we arc talking about an emergency.

proper place tn determine guilt for innocence of Yes.

...... ■ .iiu ...... J,'i uu piijvxiiu ini’ quxuK uuLxuii.

IJe may not be able and „.


.... is to provide for quick action.

to go through it, it con come but after because of the time- we arc­ twiddling our hands, things are happening and saying by then, the Governor General have such rights tn declare emergency when Belize is engaged in war, when terrorism force a propagation for the Government General or there is in force c resolution of the legislature declaring that democratic institutions in Belize arc threatened.
This is another face of the case so one, we will take note, wc certainly will take note Pollard: of what you say and see if it can be practised.

May I make just two points in support nf what I quote, dir, There is a very international human cry today about the abuse nf this power of the Governments in power follinr in subversive.

That is very much abused, especially in Latin America.

Very much abused.
Very much abused.

People are arrested and kept in jail without trial far in very indefinite periods under such terms and it is the sort rf thing that outstanding members of your Government themselves hove been taking up from countries like Nicaragua, where that was practised vary much so.

Nicaragua, and the Latin Ameri­ can confederation of Christian Mnrkors, to which I used to belong, fought to belong, fought '’gainst this type rf thing for many, many years hut it's abused.

I saw.
I saw.

when the Dictator, like in Paraguay and right new in Bolivia and places like that.

First one.

The second observation in support is that I believe there are, there is an existence in many countries of the: world including, strangely enough to shy, Liddle East countries.

The provisions of such people should be brought to trial as soon as possible, -nd not just kept in jail Rogers; indefinitely.

I think that here we h-ve a Difference of interpretation.
It is not individuals, in fact this is dealing with the state of emergency, strictly.

Pollard: Yes.

J - © o 0 Ragers: Anri it is saying that it exists when th legislature declared th; t B democratic institutions in Belize ore threatened hy subversion.

Suppose, in our particular,case, a neighbouring country have freed life so difficult now, that and I'n net t-lkinn ah-ut th; political demo­ cratic institutions but other institutions in the country, that would be collapsing because of subversion.
There, is a need to declare a state of emergency because things h; v>: gone to that act not to do st; much with the individual r.s to do with outside sources -ctive on the move.

Yes, I understand that very much, s i r, hut .....

But we take the point thr.t you may, which i; should be prove in a court of l-->w.

As soon ns possible.

As soon os possible.

As soon ~s possible.


that such subversion t.y reminder sir, is that burins '.arid -nr II, here in Belize, we hod ■ nr II, people like mm Demo Kemp cod a few other people imprisoned, arbitra­ rily, far suspicion of decline with the enemy and that could be repented.

Pollard: Rogers: o Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: I don11 knew the .... Anri there were citizens I'n not that old, hut there ore, us to win such o war.

Pollard: Y as.
Pollard: Y as.

Rogers: Pollard: That tn have ourselves epenori.

Yrs.

hut.

I will say that it is better for Regers: Leave ourselves right opened, They, the task before us then, is to look at what we ere anticipating.

Pellord: Rogers: Yes.


Be how we can meet that need with ns much freedom os possible, all that Pollnrri: Rogers: Pollopd: Rogers: fol lord: Regers: Pollard: preserving freedom.... to collective freedom of the state, not talking about the people of Belize nor over protect them from everything.

Yes, Sir, I understand the intention, but like everything else, this kind of thing can b- abused.

Your intention ;; f ay I like to arid, also to the same sub-section ar.
that such declara­ tion, such resolutions, should bn passril hy a vote of three quarters of the legislature.

Are you suggesting that such resolution .

Bhoulri be approved hy a. vote of no less than three quarters of the House.

No less than three quarters of the 1 oinloture.

Continuing tc section B, 'a suh-sccti; n (h) with the same paragraph, h-ginning at action or th;, threat of action, a verb has been left out.

That there exist action or th.. threat of action.

There is no verb.
There is no verb.

!l II That there exists.... Regers: Yes.

—J i 9 Pollard: Action or the throat nf -ction.

Yes, and continuing to the three lines ftcr that where it soys 'nr a substantial portion thereof, of supplies Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Lollard: or services essential to life, incomplete.

that there exists... again I add the word exists.

It's that that doesn't qualify it because there is a new thought there.
It soys that there exists action or the- throat of r.ctionby any person of such nature or en so extensive a scale ns tn endanger the: public safety or deprives the community, nr a substantial or, sorry, for services a. substantial or life, exists.

The first on; is action, or set of actions, qualifying substantial portion thereof, of supplies or services essential tn exists.

The other one i substantial portion thereof.

Yes, exists and at the end to that, Exists.

At No.

9 section 9. exists.


The legislature may by resolution make a deci'ration not exceeding six months, question, a declaration rheut what?

declaration about what?

I mm first of oil, I ask the That should he stated, hakes a About mm or referred bock to 7(c).

Yes.

It is, Yes.
Yes.

It is, Yes.

It is, that's the intention, it's obvious, the intentions ore there but, it's not quite ent out and I would like to see set put in it's not quite better, after the ward declaration sc that it roods 'the legislature may by resolution moke a deci oration to bo in affect for a period not exceeding ... Tn ho in effect between declaration ...

Yes, for n effect for period.

Tn he in effect for a period not exceeding ... yes.
c fingers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: which would complete the thought, and not leave us dangling.

Page 8 Sir, Protection of Existing Laws.

is just guidelines for a constitution.

I get the impression, sir, that this It is not really o constitution.

So, in that sense, I interpret the spenin must be made to protect the lews existing, i ir.rds of Pn.

18, Prevision /.ctunlly, it's not set cut hut provision indicate that are mode .....

So that it can assist the people who will be writing the constitution.
date will have to h. looked r.t when there So that, I take it ft r granted point of constitution is draft Yes.

end finally it will come hack tn the people.

The constitution itself, h-’ s tri be.

negotiated in London.

Yes.

Of this report, whnt you ora testifying.

today, will go to th: House.

Yes.

Rod it will form the basis to negotiate the constitutions of Yes.

□f course, the constitution will crime beck.


Yes, and I'm glad that, the people will hove a chance of to see it again o It will come hock, hut for mistakes, I c-n't give you any assurance whether it is in this rep rmcntr five democracy that will .... Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: ■ ■ 11 Pollard: From the day.
And with regards to Co. 13, sir, at the lost sentence beginning at 'A person who marries a 'clizc'n citizen shell be enti- tied tn Belizean citizenship hy : ; gistr?

tic.n' .

A question.

Docs this registration envisage pr vino : f:::.

er tratir.n?

Rill that be paying : fci: cr -utnmntic?

Pardon?

■utamotic?

shell it he utorv tic upon regis- 6 o 0 & Rogers: [■ ollnrd: Rogers: Pollord: Rogers: Pr.llnrri: t.y idea nf that is them should h.: r.Hninirtr: -tivn fr< .

A small fee.

A small, fee.

Yes.


As a value compared t.r "hat we pay for n- tumlif r-ticn.

Yes.

I understand that nt the present time.

for r: person horn outside of Belize, even though hern rf British parents, h-ve to pay two hundred dollars to be registered.

This is excessive, terribly excessive.

Only those who cam:.’ to Belize say that ....

Page 9, l\ln.

1G, th:: Governor General.


There shall he a Governor-General nf Belize who shall he a citizen of Belize apnointed after consultation with the Prime I inister hy the Ruecn, I an requesting, sir, substitu­ ting for Prime I'.inister, after consultation with the Belize Advisory Council.

Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Belize Advisory Council.

And I think it ... after consultation.


Yes, and I think that my suggestion might be obvious to reason for it and I'll just explain very quickly th--t since the Governor-Geneml will act as a sort of check and balance an the Prime (inister, I. mean it should be, in the event of any kind nf gross emergency.

for example, being kicked out of office by his own party nr as it A Primo (.inister happened in, where was it?

New Zealand or Australia, somewhere.

Australia.


Australia, two years ago, the Rnvcrncr-Gcncrnl must ba a strong mon.

Not just a, fcobet.

He must be a strong man.

He must hr able tn ha independent in such a situation as has happened in Australia and I don't think it is being fair on, to any nnr to the Prime i inister to have him nominated on the advice of the Prime f inister.

Consult?

tion.

Yes, on consultation.


I o.hnul'' suggest r. insulation with the Belize Advisory Council "nd at the very end of that per graph...

Your concept shout the '-otter of check balance of the Prime f inister's I position....

Yes It should he a strong R?n.

Yes Check hal-nce I understand should ho a strong non ■ nd so on.

Yes.

But whet check should he he if th;.

const-nt adoption of r doctrine situation, rn I understand it., th:.

Governor G n ml is.
Governor G n ml is.

the ..uccn’s Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: lingers: Pellard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: represent:' tive.

Fnllrrd: Yes.

Rogers: He have other constitutional ... th'-t will be write in, hut as tn 12 Pollnrd: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Poll o.rd: Rogers: Follarri: Rogers: Foilord: Rogers: Pnllerd: O o c whether it is a check and YG5O j-- lance th" t nr:; ;; over into the ox.

cutivc.

Jince th.
cutivc.

Jince th.

'n, t,h5.s will o.ssiot fri-rn no*' to the ntjxt thnn nnd he is not an elected person.

So hr?

can’t check -nd balance against -an elect:;' person.

He represents the ,u on mt' 11 the functions.

Yes.

hell, I just quoted the exact wrr'o the f-.ak:j that comment a little bit cir-rnr.

I just mentioned the Australia ;xample that might be Horne in mind and at the very end of the ... because that deal with ■ solutions.

Yes.
Yes.

that when a f inister, that is the function in the constitution, proceed.

At the end of that paragraph, Gir, I would like tr odd the word again after consultation.

At th:, end lihere it says, 16 Yes.

IJhenever this Office becomes vr'c: nt or th holder is unable to perform his functions, th't is the Govern;ir-Genurcl, due tn absence or otherwise.the C.ueen may appoint some person tn perform his functions', it doesn't soy 'Hnw'.

After consultation with the Oelize Advisory Council.
l.Jith the proposal they didn't get.

Yes.

Consultation with the Belize A vior.ry Bor rd.

bn you support the pro- visions for Belize to be independent.

Certainly.

Psge 10, I again nut a question n I'-ge in that, of section 21, The Attorney Goner; 1 shall hi.

the principal legal adviser tn the Government of Belize', hut if that will st-to whether ha shall be a member of the House of n.Tpn:nrnt"tiv<:s or whether he could he a Senator as wall?

I'd like that cl'rifled.


Hr- should be a member of the House cf Representatives ant' it is st-t ..H in ths proedding paragraph for the paragraph for the I inister of Finance, it states vary specifically, the I’ inister of Finance shall bn member of th.

': House of Representatives Rogers: Yes.

Pollard: Roger's: Pollard; 9 I would like tn stat;: also for th: Attorney General Noted.
And in connection with the rpp---rmce independence, intention to make the Attorney General independent, which is basically a very good idea, I bring to mind the dace of th:.- i.iotcrg^te proceedings where it was desired that the American prnplt;, th't -nicy was going tr; prosecute.

Nixon h'ri to be an independent person "nd that could arise, bo th:t the independence of the Attorney G. nerol is very I'csir: bl:?.
However, I would like tn submit in connection with this paragraph, end it also appears in the Report: r for .

undey rf th: week passed which I think bears very cnncntly -n thii- ■ cti"n ■nr' I think I I I —------ * Rogers: Poll-'rd: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollnrri: Rogers: Pollarri: Regers: Pollard: 13 You submitted that As my cun views.

yiur, ....

Your own views on the '-hitu Paper.

Yes, sir.

Hns it anything to do with that?

Yes, sir.

Port nr th.

: whole article?


The whois article in general, but specifically on th:: Attorney General.

I think it's column 2, :bout two thirds rf th,: way down, it roods that subject to.

the Attorney General.

LJhot page is that?

Page 2 of the Reporter?

The dote...

The riots is Sunday, Fohru'ry IS.

down.

Kindly rear.'

it alt uri, sir.


Column about tun thirds of the way Rogers': The 2nd paragraph that I r Pollard is caking reference tn is from, a report fr~m the Reporter dated 5un,l':y February 15, 1981 in Editorial and I think this is the paragraph he is referring to: i'nragrnph 21 states that in the exercise of his functions the Attorney General shall not bn subject to th: :'ir..ctian rr control of any person or authority.
This needs to bo looked at since not even the Attorney General can break the law in pursuance of the law.

In effect, the end cannot be made to justify the means.

The Attorney General must be subject to the law of the land and to the Constitution which is the country's supreme Authority.

Now, what ere you submitting?

Pollard: Rogers: That seme paragraph, in particular paragraph/... That paragraph says nothing more than what it ways, looked at.

It should be Poll'Tri: Rogers: Yes.


find I read it nnnin so that I con show you.

Fnr.

'nmph 21 states that in the exercise of his functions th'.

Attorney General shall not be subject to th' direction or control of -ny person or authority., This needs to bn locked at since net even the Attorney General con brock the leu in pursuance of the law.

I'll leave it nt that, sir, simply to he looked nt, hut I do wont on explanation.
I hove reasons to believe that this Editorial was wirtten in consultation with very good .... As th:: legal .... Legal minds.

Do you hove reasons tn believe it.

Your very emphasis is good, very good.

Be take your point seriously, that \j- ur submifc^icn is based on that and it should he looked nt.

I ay I arid a thought to the question.

I think thr: other members ....

I feel that the Editorial, only if you ere going tn enter it yourself.

That's what I'm doing sir.

It became my niun dcings.


f.r Pollard you con continue.

Pollard: Rogers: Pollnrri: lingers: Follord: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: 1 Pollard: Page 11, Sir, Ho.

25.

Thu office of every binistor shall become 16 vacant c-tc.

which, it hi** -ppointmunt i-> revoked oy ths?

Governor—Gen .r 1 on the -.

dvicu of th.

Prine i-mister if for • oy reason, the phrase that adds other than a dissolution of the Hoticnnl Assembly.

It is rather vague in my mind.


I wonder why it ijfs put in b- cause it is automatic that when the National Assembly i-' iJis-olved, every finister loses his job.

I don't see the near!

for that phrase.

lihat it does ..... Rogers: 'If for any mason other then -• dissolution of the National Assembly he cer-sos to be o member ... 1 think you hove to mod it.

Gtop nt Pollard: R rigors: 'Prime f.inister' and remed it.

Yes, I see thrt.
Yes, I see thrt.

'If for any reason other than a dissolution of the national Assembly he censes', I think it's th:-: point you nailr: o while non -bout his losing the control r-.f his party.

follorri: Regers: Yes: That's one possibility.

Pollard: LJhnt I'm saying horn, dir, clear, it proceeds tn rank;: is if th-t for • ny reason, which is quite on exception of the tho.r reasons which is inconceivable to me.

It makuc on exception of that other reason ether than.
EJut, we knew that the n rds 'other than' is except, words this is net to hr: included ns such a. mason and that reason is rds 'other then' is except.

In other the most potent of the rta sons that the Hotion-'l Assembly has been dissolved.

I don't think that exception should be marie, nt least that's the way I nr-c' it.
Rogers: 25 provides the greater sects,... the hinister should become v -cant upon the appointment or m^pnnintment ...with the officer, Prime Hinister, if his appointment is revoked hy the Governor-Geneml on the advice of the Prime f inister, ns ana c- s;:, 'if for any other reason as ana case, other than a dissolution of th:.

fbt.it.nd Assembly he cc-'sos to bn o member of the House cf which he i-rn - member when he was appointed Hinister.
Pollard: That phrase makes on exception af th-: r'isa: lutinn of the House -nd I think, at least that't th.

u- y I med it, 'other th- n' .

Rogers: I think we cm rtf’sure.

you, Hr Pollard, that thi point there which this paragraph described, is a Hinister v; n-tinn hi.n office as a I inister in a number nf circumstances.

As you cay thc-r's the obvious case where if the house dissolved "nr1 them ir.

a new election doubtless [IP i that is one.

So there ape other n son a.s well.


if a I inister loses his particular seat, instance, member for some rc-wn, n-yhr: ho commits r- crime nr some other reason tv: ce"scs tn ho o Eno rf which is, for that disqualifies him from membership of the House.

If that is s-.

, his responsibility ns a i inister in his office -Iso rod this is, the ottampter, in merely to make - crime that opart from the dissolution of the House, there am rise: • ays in which a. i .inister may lose his office.
I don't think that this mysterious attempt to ... Pollard: I think ynu'm misunderstanding me, >ir, > ith Hue respect.

I under­ stand wh-t you said p. rf.

ctly.

It's v ry clear what ir; intentional Pollnrri: nf the pnrnnrcph.

Ph-t I soy, is vary simply th-.t th: phrase is not 15 Rogers: Poll-Tri: Rogers: Poll-rd: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: needed at all.

I see.

That's what I'm saying.

It's unnrci : ry mt‘ it m-k s an exception.

Okay, continue I r Pollard.


2G Sir, '.Ihenever th:: Prime binistor is unrhlt: tn perform, and so on, it goes on 'this power shall tr exorcised by Governor', substitution for the Prime finistar, substitution the Prime f'.inistsr, it states 'this power shall bo exercised hy the Governor-General on the rdvice of the P Prime binistor, I should h-cl: up a hit there, nd -.ay th ’ Governor- General may authorise any ether binistor to p rform the functions nf the Prime binistor.
To my mind, Sir, this call tn the question why then insert a Deputy Prime I inistnr?

It should bn -utormtic that the Deputy Prime I inister become the Prime bin?...tar.

hut there is provision.

There is provision for Page 10, paragraph 20.

A binistor t.?y also he designated Deputy Prime (■ inister tn whom the functions t:f the Prim:: binister may be a Deputy Primo, f.inistcr on png:.

: ..... deputed from time to tine by the Prime tinister.
If it doesn't choose that form of organisation th n bar's the list providing for that.

The Prime binistor may use that” form to organize hit; government with a Deputy Prime f.inister, if not..... Uhot section did you quote that from?

20 Page 10 at the top of the page.

The sentence beginning with a binistor may also....

I see.

It doesn't say in th:: event that he deer,n't exist, he would Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: No 31.

Gn nn to page 12, sir, Ro.

31 Pollard: Again th;: phrase enmt.


's up 'other th~n a dissolution of the Assembly' I make th;, sone observation, confusing.

That in not necessary.

Anri in fret, it’s Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: The some point?

The some point.

Going down to section 3b on th;, bottom of page 12..... 3A nt the bottom of page 12.

Pollard: t!ay I coll your attention tn mis-spell inn?

Ropers: f'oll ord: Lihich one?


'The council's other function end duties shell he these conferred nr Rogers: Pollard: have only one imposed' Yes, hr Poll ord?

Page 13, section 37, Lxc.rcisn of Governor-General' a Powers, 'Inhere it 's’ .

is required that the Governor-Gencr'l shall oct in accordance with or the advice of any p.;mnn er authority, the question of whether he cn has in my ease don.

: so shall not hr; enquired into by any court.'

disagree with that.
disagree with that.

I think that should he subject to enquiry hy court.

No man should bo.

-hovr.

the lew.

Page 1A.

ungurs: bny I ask far n clnrific tinn :n that r-thcr than way tn the end.

I a i Pollard: Yes.

1G fingers: Ghoul ’ we take out to support to or advise it?

You see thE Governor- Generol here is provided that i-hcrc h;.

is acting in accordance with advice from persons or authority.

It nay include those who advise, it.

Is that what you're symposium is?


Pollard: we hove the principle in English law , but mnn persons liell do accessory to th., facts, sc that hr.

should he included "nd that would, Regers: Pollard: « Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: I think the principle of common low would apply there, need that state- ment in the constitutions.

Page 1G- Amember is pointing cut that the principle in common low is the Queen.

Nay I just add a remark here?


Gir, I think, I'm not sure about this, the Queen con be impeached by parliament tiogne Carta.

Impeached, sir.

Page lit sir.

Page 1A, yes.

qualiflections for menborship for the Nati’ na.l Assembly, Nn.

it3 just n moment Sir.


'A person shall bt: qualified tri b' elected n member of the House of Representatives or to b: appointed to the Gennte if he is a Belizean citizen, eighteen years old or elder', ray I respectfully submit, sir, that a person should not h : appointed 'if he is eighteen, should be nt least 21 years of age.

Rogers: Pollard: The proposal of fir Pollard is .....
I can understood the pressure for eighteen year old vote, but I hardly think that my eighteen year old son should be able to vote, unless you Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pnlla.rd: get away and put the young ones now and again.

He can be a Prime t.inister "t 21 too?

Is that what you're saying?

I don't think that subject is qualified, but he could be.

Once he is qualified tc be.

a member ef the House.....


He might become a .

o o o o o But we take your submission.

AA, going down to line 7, hr.

is "Isn disqu’-lifinri from membership cf the National Assembly if he is holding tr ■ cting in ' public office' has been convicted of "ny offence related to elections', the penalty, here sir, is for disqualification for ten years.

I respectfully sub­ mit five years instead of ton years.

Er Polla.rd's propos"!

is five years for disqualification.


I think ten years is an unusual lo.no time tc polish an creative mine1, merely because he hr-s committed on -lection offence.

■P II I You take it ns crc"tivc?

There are creative people, sir, who o o o o o o They ore not.

Not neccss rily Not necessarily, no.

Yes, but.

wo take your proposal .

o o o o o o Five years instant' of tan years, disqualific'tinn.

Under *+B on page 15.

Hagers: Uhere does it say ID years, f.r Pollard?


Pnllnrri: Rogers: Pnllnrri: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pnllnrri: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Ten y:;~rs is mmm I not the inprossinn th-t there 17 Ogc-ucc it seems that name .... ynu'ra.

supporting Is thnt st.'?

Yes.

id: s " t;.n ye-’re..... the lihite Pnnur.

Could it be that Yes.

you.... atthu prunuTit 1 w At the present l~w.

I have t: speak tn you r'-out th-t. Cut you ore suggesting 5 years.

Five years.

Very well.

Con wo go on?

Con wo gc on?


Pnllord: Yes, Gir.

No AB on png-; 15.

It says, presiding officers, No AB on png-; 15.

■The speaker shall he mart: than thirty years rid' .

I respectfully submit such speaker and deputy sp-rkur.

Rogers: Pnllnrri: hr Pnllnrri's proposal is 1 Spanker and Deputy Sptr knr' The reason, I think, is cbvi-us.

Th'.

: deputy might hnvu clashes I think in it is not clear th-t the tteputy speaker shall bo elected from the House.

That should be cl->rifinri.


The Office nf Speaker and Deputy Speaker shell h-.

vacated, if th holder of office census tn be a citizen nf Belize, censes to he a member nf the House, is appointed a Minister nr, in the cose of a sp-.-kor elected from among persons who ere not members nf the House'.

Dhan the House first moots after any dissolution nf th;: Notional Assembly'.

My suggestion is thnt the Deputy should be clear, th-t th;: Deputy is elected from the House.

I don't think it's clear.


Reg:: IS, the Donate, 53.

Fisty three, the Governor-General .. 'The Governor-General mny also, on advice nf whom i ■ not stated, on advice nr noting in his discretion', I again would bug to suggest end advise of the Belize Advisory Council.

Fir Pollard's proposals is that it should be: c.o the advise of the Belize Advisory Board.

Yes.

I don't think the Senate should he n rubber stamp, £iir.

respectfully say that.

I han't mean to.


impute -’nything at present I Rngers: Pollard: Regers: Pollard: Rogers: Are you snying that the Senate is n rubber stamp?

Pollord: It could become thnt.

Regers: Pollord: Qh, I hove given to th.

it could become that.

2n non the House.

Yes, l-r Pollard, principle rf disagreement even nf nil p-rty Regurs: members.

Hay I clnrify the point you nmrie just now on 53 just tn get you clear, because this moans the Senate would have been r.n ndvi.se rf certain people.
Pollard: Rogers: Yes.

Already, minority lender, majority lender not' whet this paragraph is saying,.

it seems tn me, thnt whether nrivise should nlr.n advise, nil the Pollard: new ...... Thnt mny be the intention, Rir, hut it is net stntud.

That's the intention.


IIi I Rogers: Pollard: Ropers: F'allerd: Rogers: Pollnrd: Rogers: Poillerd: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollnrd: Rogers: 10 Yes, hut you're now changing that, y: u" prapos”l« Tn change it from those rahc advise to a new nr -.up, to This is merely - ... the Belize Advisory Council.

I only w nt to know if you h-rj th .

mwninn hut y u changed, you deli­ berately mean to put in th-t.

I morn to put in that, b'.causa this is • is a serious matter.

No.
No.

tr.rmin-tinn rf •' person which It soys 'The Governor-General may nice, nn th.

:1 advise, or acting in his discretion declare the set of n !>-.

:n--tcT vacant.

Yes, yes.

So that's Out, who advised it before the other parson?

serious wetter.

I understand that, hut I ary ....

If you unr’erstand it i:- sh-11 nn on.

Yes.

I don't think th"t oenntars should he subject tn the whims r.f the jealousy far example, of the party 1.

"dcr.

No, that should bo member.


Everybody in there as his conscience to rlo.nl with, You knew .... a parsen rod he h-.s •■nd if he Hr.nsn't agree with his party, then ho con leave, his party.

That happens every day, pnlitically.

Poll ord: Fingers: .

Yes.

Ana- that doesn't mean that he is a rubber stamp because he agrees with his party.

1.1c want tn ferment with him and soy if you don't agree with, you always agree with your party, you're a rubber stamp.
The Pallord: Rogers: Pollard: party system would collapse.

Yes.

Not one of our democratic institutions.

Except that in British Parliament there ora rations on which party members may disagree and it is stater!

before the vote is taken, this shall be party matter, '.ic must vote Rogers: Ue have it here with questions like ths ■ th penalty, Everybody is Poll ord: Rogers: Pollnrd: Rogers: Pollnrd: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollnrd: free to vote.

It's a question .

f c nsci-uncc.

Yes.


It Isn't rinht that., nor with, no witness.

Now with regards to the .... Flow we gon an tn page 17.

17 I think the General ohscrv-tian that na.

quorum h-vt?

been stated for the senntc nr the House.

There is no quorum ortviduri.

Our Assembly may make st~ndinc Orders to regulate its procedure.

They shall make their own standing orders.

i.

1 Is that everything for the Standing Orders?

Yes, correct.

Thank you.


On 58 the powers of the Notional Assembly shall be limited in respect of its -Irlity to niter an amend this constitution as follows: It's a very important natter.

(a) No amendments shall be node tn the Constitution except hy n Bill approved hy n fin-1 v tn in th:.

: Hr Ur.;.

■ f Rupr>: >entrtivea of nn 19 t-f th ri:.nborship• Out there is no reference to membership.
Fin-1 vote in the House of Representative.There is no the Cienrt: , I think that the Oenotc should bn involved in Pollord: less than two thirds the Senate, reference t. that i.i-in Hon V H Courtenay: 1 i propes-I.

tiny I ask you ’ no question?

Pollard: Courtenay: Pollard: You state that on amendment to the Constitution bo inn proposed ...

The suqn stion here then is two thirds House of Representatives.
majority must h: vc in the But that is only an assumption, it tines not have noy reference to the Senate here.

Courteney: You personally think .... Poulard: I am requesting that throe ouarters .

I "r, making a claim.

I think that the principle should ha drawn in mint' here I r Chairman, that t.ihcn the Constitution is written fair anybody not the present holder of power should be borne in mind hut th .
to-chnr: therefore • t present time it just happens by cninciri;neo that the Government has a. tun-third majority in the House of Fb.-prosnnt-.tives, them is the present sub- ......mission, so.

that the principle of justice shell nt t only be done it must be seen tn be done, o-nc.

thing must go for our constitution and it would appear my people: interpret it that this if.

being written a-nr.

Fit?

gers: for tha.1 present government situation.

I nm not saying it is sn.


I wonder why you say so, when ell constitutions seems to provide two thirds.

Pollard: Is it two-thirds then?

Courteney: Host of it.

Rogers: Pollard: This is entrenched the other one is deeply entrenched.

That it is port of the example which is just ana principle of much more important it is to tamper with the constitution if net.

vote tn interfere with human rights for -n entire constitution.

How Courteney: This is part nf the constitution.


Pollard: Because what it is saying you .-’re nivinr> the House two-thirds port to Rogers: Pollard: tamper with the constitution.

Which is now United Litotes cr nstituti ri f-r inst- nce, ■two-thirds majority.

Yes, I won't deliver that.

99.

I h-’v r- note here fnr 50(b) (c).

Any regards tn the provision relating to human rights and fundamental freedom, the House of Raprosantrtiv.□ "nd th.
: Judiciary, no amendment shall be marie to the constitution unless °C ■ ys hove elapsed between the presentation of ■ Hill am' its seenn- reading in the House nf Representatives end the Bill is approved in the House of Representatives by a final vote of no less then three qu rti.rs of membership.

I h-ve a note hero which I don’t need tn discuss :1t this time with ynu all.

i?

I propose tn come back at a Inter dote.


Courtenay: It would be more urgent ... Pollard: But, I have note here, but I have not gone into it sufficiently of this entire thing to believe.

I wouldn’t like to argue the point now I woujt!

like to bt.linv: it entirely.

Rogers: Foil ;rU: Rogers: Pollard: 21 This is iihy I question ....through th: Governor-General that is smnis tnn democratic to me.

Hell, you can put it into practice end it cm always bo over-ridden.
I think you mention sir, a historical president when th;; I.hits Russians Juan Revolution in Hue in, the Rods tf.r-k over after the White's the fr use, the Heits supported th .

Revolution end turned it into what you say lahitu kur.si:.

: ninht have ni ne just ifthey had fallen a democracy.

But apparently it wasn’t drt-in power in the house and the Reels turn over.

Yes, Ln ID No.

6C.

Anyhow rs it mentions in one of the other parts.


I questim this, the phrase "when :• Bill io presented to Governor-Gen..r::l for namnt, what would b the whole assent, what happens if hr.- just foils the assent, the Constitution I think there should be a nr: vision for where the Governor will make the whole assent.

Isn't that stylistic, h;; shall say his port what's his offence nr that he may go with them.
Yes, but there is no permimim for what happens if he holds it, again it comes back in the ... Rogarsli Pollard: It's not n lwo..„ But there should be acquisition t” authorize that in the whole thing which is the .. this io the equivalent tn the veto, I guess and he should be over-ridden.

Courtenay: Pollard: Yes.

There should be a provision there for the nvurifiing of thet withholding Rogers: of th; true democracy.

The proposal is that there should ha provision for over-riding.
Page The Judiciary, Amin 1 cam/, t. the point, The Chief Justice 20 No.

75 The Judiciary, Amin 1 com'..- t. shell ba appointed hy the Governor-General f.inister.

I strongly oppose that.

Bn the advice of the Belize Advisory Council.

the advice of the Prime on Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pnilerd: G'n the advice of the Belize Advisory Council.

I don't think any Jur'nt; should, bn put choice of n Prime f.inister, Judge should bn very, very independent, the Chief Justice but he is subject to ....

The U.!l.
The U.!l.

President anpnints Are they subject to □ confirmation by the Congress?

By the Congress, yes.

The Provision passed on to of my appointment, from there you become anybody, he can run all over uo.

is that firstly they try mu on advice the place end be ...

I suggest the Belize /.dvisrry Council.

Pollard: Yes.

I note in support of my suggestion at 75 hut nobody supported Ro.
79 Court of Appeal Again the same principle the Inst that... sentence on the advice of the Belize Advisory Council some thing sir.

Rogers: Pollard: Yes.

Some thing again at 83, The Director «,f l-uhlic Pr seditions, snme I, i I principle, Cnmrission down to th The Belize Advisory Council.

85, Public l.ervice lost smtenm, th.

rurmment •‘.’iccrr.tnry, i - - • ” - ■ * Regers: This is why I question ....through th: Ik’vcrnc r-Goneml that is scorns Pollard: ton democratic tn me.
Cell, you can put it into practice rnf it cm f’lwt ys bo over-ridden.

21 I think you mention sir, a historical president when th;.

l.hite Russians Juan Revolution in Cumin, the Reds took over after the White's the h'usc, the Reds supported th .

Revolution anti turnon it into what you say Lhite Russia might have ni ne just ifthey hod fallen ns nc n democracy.

Jut apparently it wasn't damn power in the house and democracy.

the Reds turo over ■Anyhow as it mention!)

in one of the other parts.


Yes, Ln 1G No.

6C.

I questi; n this, the phrase "when :■ Jill is presented tn Governor-Gen..rcl for ns stint, what would b the whole assent, what happens if he just falls the assent, the Constitution I think there: should he a provision for where the Governor will make R liners: the whole assent.

Isn't that stylistic, hi: shall say his part what's his offence or that he may go with them.

Pollard: Yes, but there is no.


pcrr.iimi n for what happens if he holds it, again it comes back in the ... Rogarsli Pollard: It's not a. Iwo... Jut there should he acquisition t” authorize that in the whole thing which is the „.

this is the equivalent tn the veto, I guess and he should be over-ridden.

Courtenay: Pollard: Yes.

There should he a provision there for the nverifling of that withholding Rogers: of th: true democracy.

The proposal is that there should ba provision for over-riding.
Page 2D No.

75 The Judiciary, Amin I cam:, t. the point, The Chief Justice shell be appointed hy the Gcvernor-Guncrol on the advice of the Prime binistor.

I strongly oppose that.

Ln the advice of the Belize I strongly oppose that.

Advisory Council.

Regers: Pollard: Ln the advice of the Belize Advisory Council.

I don't think any Judge should be put choice of " Prime hinister, Judge should bn very, very independent.

The U.L.
The U.L.

President a-ipoints a the Chief Justice but he is subject tri .... Arc- they subject to lingers: Pollard: confirmation by the Congress?

By the Congress, yes.

The Provision passed on to us is that firstly they try mu on advice of my appointment, from there you lj.c--mu anybody, he can run nil over the place end be ...

I suggest the Belize .

'.dvisery Council.

Pollard: Yes.

I note in support of my suggestion nt 75 but nobody supported that... sentence on the advice of the Utilize.
Advisory Council sane thing sir.

Co. 79 Court r f Appeal Again the same principle the Inst Rogers: Pollard: Yes.

Same thing again at 03, The Director <>f l-uhlic I’r seditions, s nine principle, The Belize /■rvimry Council.

(15, Public Lo.rvice Comrission down to th lost sentence, th.

farmonent ‘iecrs.tnry, I i 22 Pollard: Establishment shall h.. th :' becretary t th Public Lt.rvi.ee Commission I think n question rf cht.ic:.

worth there, I don't s:?c how L’stablinh- ment con be its Seer:, tnry.
Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: It is the Permanent £jf:cri?t"ry tihr will he the Secret:ry.

I'm sorry, mr,ybc it should b; that woy.

Anyone would rccc tlr t they Anyone w uld reoc would net un'..jrsVnt it.

GG, A.nr-in th., sentence, Except for ex- officio members, th;.

Chairman nd th.

: m: mLi.ro of th .

Public Cervices Commission shall hr.

npprj ntr.r- by the Govern;r-G;:n:.r' 1 n the advice of the Nelize .

'’.

''vis: ry Council.

09.

Com.’.


principle ag-in, Minister appoints for th’: lelize Advisory Council.

Pago 2A Ho.

9A The Consolidated fiovenu Funds.

Yes.

Page 2k No.

9A.

The I- inister rocfionsihle etc.

its ■' very minute point - I'm not sure, I t’■■n't know, I'll ask the question whether the The Prime Rogers: Pollard: word expenditure, r'ha.ulr!

it not .

en'’itures.

The word in expenditures.

Again No.

95 page 25 Th.

: sneont’ t’ th;.

I: st Lin.:.

The.

word should be unforeseen.


Again Nn.

97 Tlr Auditor G;norol.

He shall be appointed hy Governor-General rn the ■-•••'vict.

of th.. .Jelize A; vise ry Council.


That is a.ll in regards to the Conotituti; n as it has hncn laid out so for, but I have on over nil suggestion to make, 1 suggest this should bo added to the Lhite Paper it should ht: include^ in terms of the Consti­ tution of the Gishop requiring, this is very important "Acquisition requiring a. referendum for Belize to join n federation of other states or to comprise its sovereienty nr territorial integrity in any form what-so-ever".

Ant'.
Ant'.

I here envision an agreement on the matter of Guntcmola., this is an immediate objective that if any solution ernes about is should ba rehearsed before or after Independence.

I think that in the lihite Paper it soys After IndeponOrnce.

Yes.

Uc have been passing advertisements h...fore the House by Government members any solution regarding such '■ situation, woulr< hove to bo... A situation could arise there on.'

-ffcct the sovereignty.

Not necessarily so.


I |S In answer to P.r I use, necessary affects th and totally sovereign not necessarily sc, nrt b< cause it <’nes or territory, y-’u might h: intact, totally intact hut you might opt tn join a federation of other states.

Ilhot we are saying is House saying that if there wore n solution that involves anyway that n Resolution has already been passed by the wer.a territory from L'clize...

Certainly That is nil fr.r this mroning sir.


Let me thank you on behalf of this Committee for your e ntributi-’n.

Thank you very much sir.

Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: t-.uso; Pullord: Rogers: Rogers: [ use: Pollard: Rogers: Pollard: Rogers: Frnnkson: Rogers: F rnoksr.n: Rogers: Fronksen: Rogers: F rrnksnn: Rogers: F rnnkson: « 2.3 The next person... Toll us your n-mc?

Alexander Frrnksnn, Sir.

Alexander Fy-nknt ,n Like the: 1. st pei now a citizen.

in thir: r. rninr wh".


Hasn't i-xrn here hut i-'hr is Ynu ore ■ :pp; taring ns a c'tizr.n?

Appenrinr: as a citizen, y s. A 'dress?

3 St. Luke street, !‘;?liz:j City Yes, i,r Ft nksnn One nr two general ohcerv tin ns I should lik;.

: to make, all I think I g; nnrrlly rrrec with th;.

pv'T.ivisns of the draft con­ they stitution.

I think they ■ -rt cxcullcncly -'cne -nd- if the .... should provide this c; untry with Constitutional frnanuiork would all like to sec.

Thar:?
Thar:?

~rjust mr. nr two small points, hut first of we -,s ■Hi comments I should lik' tn poke.
First f -11 in the .... One nf the main concern the per bpl '11 ever the ncrld now, is with the environment, it's net an issue t'- t h~s appeared, in the Constitu- h. cause it has never he .n " writer r.f c ncorn that it tian's either, is today and perhaps cur country con ;?r'k; son; now nrtunr's here, perhaps it might be the first c-nntitutii n anywhere that makes such a provision but I am suenentinr; that I'nqc 2 Thu Constitution should comment with Section (c) require ■ olicius of state which protect and safeguard the unity, frni.rlim, sovereignty and territorial integrity a (G) I suggest the additir n of n benediction phrase of required qualities of state which protect the environment.
Rogers: Frnnkson: Fnr the protection rf the ;nviranment.

For the protection of th:; nvin nment.


Th; next point I should like Th; tn propose is in regard to the Executive, the Cabinet, stated that The Cabinet shall Fmctirn ID The Cabinet shall be collec­ it is here tively responsible to the Rational’Assembly, now the principle nf collective responsibility hrs exist d up in nr other suction, if it is tyring in the Cue nf those implir.rtinnr is tlr-t th-- Cr’-in.-t should not constitute Constitution c; .rt: in implications arise cut of it.
a majority of the House, not io trie matter where enoland doesn't arise bee use if it hns to b:; a v try 1'rg" Cabinet th-t would h- ve more than a half of the G3F1 members of the.

House of Commons, hut here the situation could very well -rise wham the rm,in Cabinet consti­ tutor!
more than a half of th:: membership of th>- House and if members of the Cabinet of col?- actively :■ as-ions idle it nv-nns whenever rn issue crimes hefrirc the House they r.ur t rj:i together and r utnrar.ticrlly therefore they wnul’1.

control the House unless there ware a minority there so the provision I an suggesting is that in regard tn the Cabinet is that its mi-mhurship should not constitute a majority nf the membership of the House.
Oth Twisp leave th,: House ns y; u sny, as you ;;ni ■ in th:- 1; s'; discusri: n b. c; mas a m re aver st’ff since what ever comes down fr nn Cabinet id.li he ’ iitomatic: lly supported ■ r ?.k ...nunhr.rn lie increased in th: National Assembly... Frnnknon: Fingers: Fi:nksnn: o o o i n There Right won the House, is PT'~vision in this neper for ”n increase of th.

...
...

I saw thrt, Yor well even then, it i ccurori tn me that maybe this one of the odvantrqas of havin' this prevision might well hn unci’, you could conceivably hove - Cabinet nf 15, IS it could he more than that, a half of the House collectively r'.sponsible and therefore a ’‘iinaQr House, but until then hut oven when you have dh members bound tn vote together and therefore nominating the House and nc:t subject tn it.
lingers• F mnkson: At the same time you would like to change the: (Jh, I do, I agree with the principle, o.f collective responsibility hut I think certain implication arisen nut of it.

Next point, Section 32, Permanent Gccro.torics, the Office of Permanent Secretary shall ba.
a public office, I nor:c hardly, thnt wc want draft Constitution for those wo didn't regard tn the Civil □arvicc and the Permanent Secre­ taries in that their appointment should ho not enmt: under the curfew of the Public Cervine Cummi ' ion hut should be right tn the Prime The sugnnstitn I -m noinq to m'ku now is net necessary, binistor.

Constitutional one but o gin.

ml observation that while Permanent n Secretaries should- bi appointed hy th a Primo I inistor, Meister should ba fy:.r.
to select them from outside of the Civil Service, under our system r;f Government it is very difficult fur Government to task the 'Abilities in the -enercl public.

In any means the Prime of defence thnt Government can reach nut draw all those villages that have not came through that morn, ~.nr' pct all of it fixed up...... draw There ere brilliant people outside: wh: could.
be brought in tn assist the Government and become nor t' Permanent Cccretorieo or anyone cf those outside could work with the Civil :>■ rvice together end therefore The Oelize Advisory Council, it nncns tr mo thnt the Council here, nr those arc uihnt we would coll ritish Council, the only comment I would like to make Cir, is thnt th:-, title, I wonder if you could con­ sider calling it th;, iiclizn Council rf F.t-'te.

Thu nuthcritios should be exercised ...

Advisory Council nnr!
I therefore disogrea with who.t I henrri snid by th:: peoples elected representative not by any before so I disnnme with th: suggestion th-t Govcrncr-Gnnnrnl under t the i.ueen should net be so our system nf Government tn h ;■ easily since its a •>r.rlirmnnt, she has highly executive and put it under the other executives system by the peoples representn- tives, thirdly If I may continue the some piece on the question of money views, money views can only prise in elective representative meeting because they ore far mure important from the kinds of Hills from the House, and h-ve very Hide implicrtions -nd therefore should be a responsibility of the nenploc elected mpresentotive and that could only fjcnate, no principle arise within in th, first pl-'ce the House -nd, not in the taxation, nnr renreiv.ntrtion ore expected of their oust crime within the Pnu<-.'.
?, '■:> in the Hour,;: not in the I J- F rcnkson: rjcnate„ The House nf Hapmsentatives, in on _• that I would like 25 tn suggest in terms nf other Commonwealth Constitutions or so n member crossed the floor of the hove his sent dRcl-rod VPC.ntc House rn(‘ Every membership i 'ho meets in the corsses n member of the Government, change's his position, of the House should the the floor and joins the opposition he may be his notion brier down the whole Government I don't think h;.
should be free to do this without people passion ju'-nnent on his notion and I think that he dot’s and his sent ho ve.cntc:'- •■•nd should h; provided for in the Repre­ sentation of the f'et-olt.

[Ordinance.

Thnt was th:; only suggestion I would like tn moke.

r Rogers: F rankson: Rny questions from th' members nf the Committee?

I would like to nsk a question.


I don't know if there will be Inde­ pendence or not, I wonder whether there will bo a trend in determining the type of the Revolution, perhaps a cru:’tinn of Belize looking shout nt the present circumstances, I wonder if you have of it.
Well, I didn't sec scything clot, it didn't excite my upcoming problem, I accept thot I thought thnt th:: number of people representing might be very smell in certain coses, And thot it mry mrkc n top heavy provi­ sion in terms of the size nf the country, hut then if thnt would be with the population possible so widespread there ore territorial then I rejected thnt democratic end thnt Rogers: therefore maybe u:: will he numbered out nf proportion.
You are swore, I.r Frankson thnt some Constitutions limit tn the office of the census, end the periods of which census is indignation takes place according to thnt, this Lihite Paper is pro­ vided for registered for.

Do you h:vn "ny comments on this?

the new F rankson: Rogers: What section are we dealing with there?

Ue are dealing with (Jn.


El at the bottom, "Thereafter th; number nf elected members nf the House if Rrairasontativcs shall he determined on by the Elections and Boundaries Commission constituted under so ... nn so on, so on, dividing the country from time tn time, into con­ stituencies in r manner which will ensure thnt each ••li.ctcc!

member shall represent a constituency com'rising nn less than 2,000 registered voters out' no more than 3,00(1 until th.
number of elected members of the House of Represent' tiver reaches twenty-nine.

The electoral Com­ mission could not on hnyrnd thnt, if th, need arises we will have to test that by resolution.

Th;, next alternative of what should be the Census, the result ~f the Census taking into account thnt the increase in population and the Licet:■•ml and Government account Fm.nkson: You never exercise your mind nn thnt.

Nn, I did not, I did not, I didn't sec anything wrong with this „ „.
uihat is provided here U I j; 1 < -26- .xCGJ in fact xhink i + is very..... •is 'oos no* provide for +he Census + o increase wb.ic?

is lo go beyond ix s plans.

-i don I 4 see any+hing wrong •’i+b tha4 G,?y I'm an ac+ of representation of democracy, +he L.-n-'e is a -.-omin.-.+ ional one, where the people are elected Is ‘ he .-use of .-lenresenta* ives.

the Louse, don'+ think numerical balance.


j. don'* +hink it's n.'.cecsary ?.LJEiJCW: Yes, .. don't xhink i-l,s necessary, ix's necessary tha+ •‘•here snould be numerical balance would be *oo obvious.

All i* means in a sense, is +b.a+ I know Council of Aiders and any size, xhere could ba a small size in terms of attendance, and so on.

I con’* xhink ix should represent, and so 1 don' on.

i + snould be moving back +he number of people in +he Louse of Representatives.

Jir.
Jir.

we have xo move +ho Jills of + hax desk.

..'ell we present jir, we have ho Lilis of +ha* desk.

x0 move t'®e dill t0 ;,’r Frankson *o le+ *p.o record shew +hax xhis cor:mi'*e2 extends his +hanks +o i.r Frankson for ’.is clear o'-axer.?jn+.

before we.

..‘’-i.x.l!

,.3CiJ: 'hank you very much.

—oCo— -'.k.

.1—J.tlJ 1 In he mean+itae we will collect a lis+ of names so that his will have again two people, Jill you look ha* ir rech?

./ha* 1 s your name?

Cscar Ramirez.

Address?

25 "iu+ Avenue.


Yes i.r Ramirez, don bo afraid to comment on ,'h i + e -aper.

x'o afraid for wha* 1 have * o say....

.

'/horn are you representing?

iiyself Jir.

Jon1* be afraid ■‘■hen.

I'm afraid for wb.a+ I have *o say, since •■■he Consii■‘■u*ion will effect each and everyone in xhis country.

- sxill feel ha ix could be more meaningful if a commission was se+ up by members of *he Louse, ;.epresenxa+ives from +he Jar Association and +he Chamber of Commerce.
I think such, a quorum would have been a?le '-o gather more broad spec+rura of +he commtni+y.

Co some of *he +ha+ 1 ■would like to bring out xhis morning abou* ,'hi + e x-.per or paragraph 16. r .

sincerely feel +ha+ +he Governor-General who will je serving on *he pleasure of *he ;ueen, should be appointed af+er ;ueen, consulxa+.ior.

wi+h he .

'rime kinis+er and also xhe Leader of deposition.


I van* o say +ha+ Jeiizeans would like + o o~e a permanent Governor-General, many ’./ill recall in early his+ory of Jamaica.

a person + ’:?.+ would not change whenever Government changes, many ■'ill r :c -„dl e/rly hic+ory of Jamaica, Lir Clifford Campbell functioned under /o+i parties or Jamaica.

If a Governor-General be appoin+el af+er consultation with he .rime kinis+er and +he Leader of Op'osition ■'•hen * _-■'■ Govornor-Gener :.l shov.l'.
begin +o function under any party ■at governs Gcverr.me.nt „ .no* ler point I would like *o raise, is *hax *he Cabinet a* 10, he '.

'l,i*e .■ vor foes no refer to wha+ should be xhe size of 'o/zever under our present performance, i+ would b : a very good ilea if Rhe '— Cabine* would U be embodied in +he Cons+itu+ion an!

1 woul su-g:s+ +ha+ Cabinet should never bo one.


The Cabinet should never bo more than one-*hird of xhe membership of the House and a+ no xime should it be more than +wo from -27- xae oena+e.

hny reasons?

l .he reason aere is x'.a+ a+ *he present 'oor.on+ we -.ave a Cabinet 4 Zla* *G *WOk-+hirds of +he Souse and *?.ic is a .’a+*or of -lenocracy because ra+her *han the; Souse controlling xhe Cabinex, Cabine* controls the -ouse.

This should be avoided in xhe new Sonsxixu+ion.

xi-J.
xi-J.

Je have your proposal.

Paragraph 28, 1 believe ..-anagraph 2.0 should be striked opt.

Capable Ministers and capable Jer-,anen+ Jecre'aries an: canable sxafjf should be able + o run +he i.

'inisxry without ->ept’+y i inisxer.

de propose x.ha* xhere is no definixe....„ No, jus* xhe word j. erraanenx secretaries, j. erraanenx and qualified Einis+ers should be able xo run xhe ..e ~rxnen+.

Paragraph 33, run xhe ..-e ?

?.rxmen+.


r +he Selize Advisory Council, "his will be advise *l.ax will be for a period ".is will be advise x’-.ax will be of ten years and here again ix will have z lo* of important *hings +o do.

I consider *his as xhe Council be nnpoiaxed as fellows 2/3 on xhe advice of *he Anime Minister and 1/3 on xhe advice of -Tie Leader of xhe Cpposi+ion.

on Paragraph 41.

Again the composi+ion of xhe house should be enshrined in the Consti+u*ion and no+ wixb.
the 21ec+ion and •boundaries Commission 2ach -douse member should be able to represent about 1C,OCC people in xhe future, -ppula+.ion census's would be xaken by Jlecxoral divisions, based on +he final census, figures, +he division boundaries would ba adjus+ed xo reflect an even definition of cixisens.

"ho current sys+em would operate until +he population cf the country ezeeads One Hundred and Lighty "housand.
In o+her words, we would use xhe present sysxen, but af+er t\g country has reached over a Hundred and Jigh+y "housand xhen './e can look for additional members for +he -iouse, or increase xhe -iouss i'enbership.

A* ‘his page, *he Paper says aboux a’ciinimum of 2,000 an: a aazimum of 3,000 but +ha+'s xoo much of a major figure.
If we realize +ha+ +he Unixed .Cxaxes has about wwo 'Hundred and Po:'+y iiillion people and xhe ..■io::se has Pour Hundred and Thirty Jive members, Jamaica has about r-’?/0 Million people and jus+ aboux Fif|y- x’lve aenusi’Uj Seven Souse members, we can see *hax repreoenxaxion jus* for about "wo or Three Thousand people is xoo much of a meagre figure even+ua’ly leading + o Are you by any change may be able + o give r.p living up by xhe Coas+ Island..... small population.
J - - * Jep.1, 1 know from xhe dec* Indies, □u+ as I saif.

19 an:: 21%.

All *he proposals have been se+ down here.

Japagraph 43, 1 don,x xhink xhax 10 year old's should be running for office and I woulf.

reco .-.end xhax 18 be changed xo 2.5. reco r.end paragraph 51, Jive should be 7.’goinxe:.

on x.ho advice of + he .

'rime Minister and Three on the advice of +he Leader of + he Cpposi+ion.

I don't think +he -JovernorwSeneral should appoint sena+ors on i+s own discretion.
This is wi+h xb.e Selise advisory Council, you are saying +.ha+ that should be ief* *c xhe lea’.era cf + he x arty.

..'.0 !

I I -38.- paragraph 58. i-ar a graph 53 should bn .

'ele + 3d„ + '-.inh.

a Cdns+i+.u+ion should be only amended by a referenda ■AC^s: "ha+'c no* dele*e + hen, x ha* is subs+i+u+e.

......... Needless + o c?.y xha+ today, cuixe a fe:.'

countries xhoir leaders nave made +herssolves it maiden* for life and xb.is ■/asn nego+ia* ed in +he house.
».ni 65 s’zould also be 3 e+ed, +—— -...0 «s e s. cmc give *he final authority anf.

nc + he Cabinet.

■he Cabinet should always be accompanied to *he Bouse and r.ox vic~-versa.

.-ragraph 39, xlo -I'.jy-e taper speaks abou* a+ leas one si*'inp per annum.

1 xhinh xhis is pra++y inaoecua+e and should road a+ leas* nine sixxin"O. I ~’O + he impression +ha+ there is only 1 session* xCGs-.J: "here is only one ?

'elaxivo cession in all xh.ese days.

• keallyi c.l,.

1'11 xake back T.'ha+ 1 said earlier.


V_ t> - .

o *1x.

* Ge'll proceed.

l-'aragraph 75, and this is also ?.

part of 76 and 79.

1 woul suggest + hat Cl Chief Jus+ice, cuuge of +he Court should be appointed on the advice of the Belise Af.vidosy Council on +he Public .dervico Commission.

Tha+ applies for 83. kClJAj; Zee i t karairez.

KAMI/uMl: "he Audi+or General should also bo nn~oin+ed ca xhe advice of +he ublic Service Commission and not on +he advice of *he -reszier.

'ha+ ' s all.
'ha+ ' s all.

—oOc-- L-OG^.3: Any cues*ions neraberc of o i.r Liam Inez?

'.hers is n«> questions +he conraitf.ee can make for you.

1 have cn +his paper xhe nex+ person, Mr kudolph 3+evens.

Je kno:/ your nar.e i.r Mufolplz.

S+evens.

Address?

75-73 Cartridge 3+r?ex, lelize Ci+y.

I appearing for Marshall of *he People's Uni+ed ar+y.

JivlShS:' Yes Kr 3*evens.

On *he 15+h of Jebruary a* ?.


Conven+icn, we xhe 1 arshalls have supported +he i/hi+e Gaper -..'ixh a, not a r.:co?Lu+ion, bu* :riJ-.h a ■ 3+a+enent.

You want rae Ao read ix?

■-.ne thing 1 'ould like xo add on to it is cur 3-elisean ?lag, IJa+ional i~.xher:, a •'ledge in school, a national rayer.

Apart from that yrs io sir -or* ix and race send ix very much, rivGwi.
;;>u • The Select Conrai*xee that considers x?i.e Jf-i+e - aper for proposal on Constitution for ?.n "nlependen Belize • with +he Belize Governraen with difficul* circ • s+ances xhe Self-Government Constitution.

This Cons+i+u+ion -./ns nox :..ean+ *c lasx for 17 years, This Cons* i+u+ ion z-znc nox meant Jha+ should have been done is xhe economic and social \ .

;velopmen+ of Belize using *fee Manifesto of +ha+ Government.
-t is xir.e for erasing tsG dark nigh+s of an inade’.uaxe Cons+itu+ion xo z bex+er day.

oTcVJilB: no power in +he world if you want +o be free, xc preserve .’oliso -./ixh c In iepen ;.enx , In;': open hence is good bu+, +his white Gaper is z ■;.ofern documenx bec~ .

::e ix is right +o gain any associaxion or sreait Jaxce c.. x..-ir xo join foran Man Marshall of .welize Ci+y race •••pen'.

+o .e ;-.’.ixe laser.

■ la believe ■•/Zzenever conference calls f :r - ence, x :r :■ will be no +urning :.
Independence is coz.'.i".

r 'ill be one ■ lelise I its possession and all i+c ’Ians /..nd our Ln dependence.. •« • ais0 x woul-.
like + o add +o +he ./hi+e racer ; (1) Cur Jelizoan Flag;- Ha+.ional -29- An+hens; (3) t. x-lodg©; (4) Cur National x’rayer© Jg wotsl^ like (3) A i-lodge; □eliaoan Flag lying in all +ho Schools, ?/hich is Junior Secondary de wan + +he oix+n norias, Colleges, i-rin?ary, kinder gar ien, iriva*e« children and +eacaero and c+her citizens +o r&snec* our flag, Jhenever Jo see our Jchool, the IIa+ional An+hem is being nluyed, everyone sL.ould s'o.nd ’’p and s+ and to atxen+ion.
.devotions in school, +he children should pledge these words: I pledge.. 'nhe i.o + ion in +he schools, xhe c- iidren should pledge in xhese words!

’I pledge allegiance +o my country and xo uplift +he dignixy cf ny coun+ry ant +o respec* those in auxhori+y.

"ba Marshall whole-heartedly support tj?e same.

These sxeps were ta’CGn a+ 3 meeting a* our temporary office on .ueen 3+ree+: f. vo+e of confidence.
At x:;j3 meexing \re decided xo make s+axeinent and hand ix xo xhe Select Commi + Xee on X\G /':.ixa .-aper.

asking branches of +he people's Uni+ed j-ar+y xo support j-j^e ./hixe raper us also for a proposed constitution for Independent Belize.

Finally, lex ./e are a remember that by ourselves we arc small and helpless, bu+ in community and in uni+y we are s+rong.

In a community of na+ions such as +he Caribbean Community we grow stronger.

.
.

;e are sxronges+ when v/e walk the arc In a pa+hs of righ+eous and when our confidence in +he fear of God and our hope integri + y of our ways.

Signed by .uudolph :3xevenc, due Mar+in, Signed by .uudolph 3xsveno, Lorenzo Acos+a and a number cf d+hers here George Heal e+c.

exc.

-tCGBAS: This will be entered in xhe record as subr.ii+.xed by Mr kudolph LLtevens on behalf of +he Men's Marshall.

'he Committee wish + o xhank Mr S+evens.


G0GAS3: GCL^SON: ..■i C\3 • GCLuSCK: A»,Xzi—L^-wkj * Your name is Mr Ismael Goldson?

—0O0-- Yes Sir.

Your address?

3899 S* i'ar+in de Lorres.

And you appear?

3OLDSON: .

On behalf of xhe 3xocuxivo Officer of + he Colle-1 bivision, People's United .-arty?

ACGLAiS: QbL^SvH : Yes M'r Goldson?

de, +he Commit+e®, have decided along wi-’-h financial Members xo support Government’s !hixe Paper sxrongly ui*h a few amendments which I will submit + o +he Chairman.
kCGS.-.G: Mr Goldson, on behalf of xhe Colle-*- division of xhe People's behalf of xhe Collex United Party, submitted to +he special convention of the Geopie's Uni+ed Party held in Belmopan, +his was February 15, 1S8I, + o bo submitted +o +he Joint Select Committee to b •= included in + ho proposed terms of a Consti­ tution for an Independent Belize : 1.

2.

Any Belizean voluntarily enlisting in + o +he ,.rr.
..'’cress of any foreign coun+ry, other than countries belonging +o xhe "Wrd ..'or Id Ha+ions, automatically loses his or Aar citizenship as a Belizean.

A standard size .Belizean Flag should always be publicly and properly displayed at all public gathering or cue+in; and also in all courts of t t I -30- law and schools, whether *hey be k.indorgarden, rriva*o, Primary, Junior Secondary, Vocational or Jecondary *hroughou+ + he coun*ry.
Anyone or any organisation failing + o comply commits a crime against *he 3+a+o which ac* WOuld bo punishable.

3, That on the playing cr singing of our Belizean Ua+ionai An*hem, all able bodied person snouxd au*ona* ice.lly s*ar.d *o attention, and remain quiet until +he completion of +ho said an*bon.

Anyone failing +o comply commits a crime against the Sxa+.o which ac+ would be punishable.

4.

All foreigners entering Belize, ’whether by land, sea cr air, s.ioulc be permitted +o enter with a valid .
'asspor* of *.’.

'.eir country of origin and not with just, a Birth -apor or Driving ?e?::i*.

5.

That the pledge mentioned below, should be taught *o nil students of school age, and should be roci*ed by '■'.ear* daily, wi*h his or her right hand raised waist-high, immediately after the morning dovo+ion.

i-’ABLG3: "I pledge allegiance +o Hy flag, and *c my country Belize, here in Central America, and tha* wi+h my help, i* may remain one na+ion with Freedom, Justice and equality for all.

So help me God".
So help me God".

Signed by a number cf people.

V H CCU.TTSHaY: there any quos+ion of hr Gcldson- Yc'.i have a list of names here i:r Goldson.

;iov were *hls long lie* cf names secured’.'


GvLDSCN: ■Jell, the Executive Co::mi**ee had arranged a meeting a+ Free ee Gardeners Hall in which the ’Jhi+c 1 aper was discussed by +he Honourable A**orney General to +he people and wi*h *hoir agreement, after +he Jhite Paper was discussed by +he Attorney General and TJini's+er of S*a*e they decided to circulate a list wherein *hay asked the people *o sign i+ in Support of +he V/hi+e Paper.

itOGliiiGs .

Mr Goldson, I have a question.


1+ is in order +o understand you thoroughly.

In *he White Paper *here io provision xha* a citizen belongs to the army of any other coun+ry +ha* +his should disqualify his:?

Let me be sure.

The point that I wan* *o .’.lake clear from you, your proposal, ■the proposal of the Colle* bivision is *ha*.

o+her than a Third Jorld Nation-, in other words, he can belong *o any o*her armed forces.
in other words, I just want +o cake that clear., Is +ha+ what you really mean by that?

GOLlSON: That's right, the Third Jorld Coun+ries *ha* supported Belize at +he Uni+ed Nations and we have decided +c embody +hem.

kGGA.tC: There were a number of coun+ries tha* supported Belize.

"he very coun+ry you might be thinking of could become a "bird Jorld coun+ry tomorrow as far aS +.ha+ is concerned, and I don'* +hink that's wha* they want.

You are saying *hat Belize, +ha+ they belong +o Belize for example.
CCUAT3HAY: I* remains for me +c +hank all *he members of *he Colle* Divi- cion for your clear s+a*ement.

I *hiak +he proposals is bet*er.

Yon be*+er say wha* you wan* +o say, jus* for an example.

xCGxSiiS: ’Jell it's no* in here in •’he records and *ha+ is sufficient.

I CGUATliH AY: "he nex* person on + he agenda is i'r Bill Lindo, Kr Lindo have your name already, would you give vs y-.ur address?
---0O0--- -31- LII-UO: Ho 4 Norxh ?ron* 3*r.-2*., Belize Gi+y, Belize, COUJMJ/.Y: and would you s+a+e in which behalf you appear?

LliJbG; Citizen Bill Lindo of Jcliae.

Jell xwo ■’•'.lings +o he chair.


It's a resolution and we studied and the proposed tGrR3 of a Constitution examined Government's for *he Independent Belize, and, ./hite laper, recognizing +he need through social justice for one which will have +o saxisfy + ho needs of every Belizean man, woman and child, regardless of pcli+ical beliefs and, recognizing also, tha+ +he ^regressive document, present and past.
Governments of Belize have been consistent in preserving the principles of Christian Democracy and guaranteeing now the preserva­ tion of fundamental freedoms and fuman J:igh+s, regardless of race, place of origin, political opinions, colour, cre:d or sex, and on behalf of +he people of +he r’icks+ock Division, be ix resolved +hax +hc /hixe .

'aper, the proposed terras o'f a Constitution for x?-s Independent Belize be adopted a* +his historic occasion.
COU.iTJiHAY: There are a number of proposed amendments by Hr Lindo.

Ix's a s*a*enen+, LIHDC; To begin wi+h ray proposals are for xhe purpose of enlarging he purpose of the freedoms granted +o +he individual.

Jo in Gelise are now in xhe unique position +o do something cur ancestors were unable +o do.

Je now unable +o do.
were have xhe opportunity to make Belize a model democracy for +he world +o 1 + envy - xo find true freedom, XG formulate a Constitution of Freedom, is a wise move that the people's United .-arty is having a special conven­ tion to debaxe +he "Proposed terras of a Constitution”, for a cons*itu+.icn ♦c is not the ac+ of a Government, bu+ of a people constituting a Government, or as John Adams said, a constitution is a standard, a pillar, and a bond when it is understood, approved and beloved.
(3u+ without xhis intelligence and a+tachment, it might as well be a kite or balcon, flying in xhe air".

In other words, a constitution is a living thing no+ just words on paper.

The people, all of them, must accept i+( nusx cherish i+, and that +he people not Government is sovereign.

For political freedom, generally speaking, means +he right "+o be a participator in Government", or i+ means noxhing.
As far as xhe "Jhi+.e .-aper" is concerned, especially from pages 4 +o 6 .- +he freedoms, xhere are limixs xo freedoms, "a’ce (f) on page 4 for instance.

1+ 3ays no one shall be subject to arbitrary arrest or de+en+ion, but goes on x0 limit xhis by saying that a law can be made < in +he interest of defence, public safe+y, order, morality or heal+h.
In other words you are no + protected agains+ arbi+rary arrest but must rely on the Government consisting of "good" men xo make jus+ laws or de+en+ion "gOCu" nen and then rely on "good” men +o enforce xher?..

Le+ us never forge* +hax "good” men *c enforce xher?..

Le + us never forge men freedom is absoluxe, i.e.

either you are free or you are no* free.


To say you are free +he same paragraph limit ix by saying xhax in xhe interest of defence, in (f) on page (5) and in xo assembly peacefully as publie safety, norali*y or health a law may be made + o prohibit you from assembling peacefully, "ho uors* case is the wish of Government to.

limit freedom of information and expression as in (i) on page 5.
This para­ graph gives everyone +he right + o express himself freely, to communicate ideas, freedom of the press and mass medium, bu+ i+ takes f+ away by.

giving Government xi1G righx -32- xo make •■ law for defence, public safety, public order, morality or ho-lth -a5 j?cr r..-al.a+in- xGle?-10n.30, ■olographs, pcc+s, wireless broadcasts an : television.

.

'emocracy assumes xha+ we are all men of reason, intelligence and +ha+ we make decisions based on xhe informa- tion ve received.
Hew .low can a ‘rua democracy function if +he only source cf information ,/e have is from the press, especinLsfcy *he kind of press we nave in Belize which supports politic-1 ->arxies and therefore give only the views they wish you +o '--new.

iero is one radio sxa+ion wmea is owned and controlled by Government, Therefore, i follows +hax views will only be Government's views.

Democracy cannot xruly function in such a cliraa+e.
All of us have x;i3 right *o read and hear wha+ we * 7. desire even if i+ is foolishness for ra.-st of us .

Under #7 (c) +he o legislature shall have +he right xo declare a public emergency and suspend all human righxs and freedom if ix feels xh?.+ democratic insxi+u+ions in Belize are threatened by subversion, "his gives xoo much novzer to +ke legislature.

For insxance, you may have a small group cf say 20 .men or women who is seeking +o overthrow xhe G vernaen+ by acxs cf violence.
Now whax is to s+op +he legislature from declaring a s+axe of emergency against 20 people when its real purpose is +o rule by force and no+ answer +o +he people for i+s nc+ions.

3y giving +he Government (under +he freedom) so much power as xhe "Jhi+e .aper:' docs is *o ask for trouble as xhe "Jhi+e -■ aper a* a later date.
For now we know +hax as long as George Price is in charge there won't be any abuse of those vast powers, bux wha+ about after George .-rice, we don't know who will bo in charge then -and if he or she will be a ‘'good man".

No.

The best Government is no Government.

Bux because human nature being what i+ is, we do need Government, but we "Kild Government" or limited Government because- power tends xo corrupt men.
Under a raild or limited Government, freedom will flourish in Belize and wi+h our abundant land resources, agricultural production can provide +he basis cf our happiness which will ensure +fcat the freedoms we have now founded will las+ not jus4- for cur life-*ime bu* .also for fuxure generations, I would also like +o see sec+ion 94 amended xo include a provision to require ■ a balanced budged each fiscal year except in an emergency such as war.
"his is xc ensure +hax Government does not crea*e infla+ion which is a danger + o all of us.

"here is a rais- leading sen+ence in sec+ion 98, concerning the dismissal of xhe Auditor General.
1+ is ray wish xhax we take +his cnee in a life-xime eppor+uni+y and do something noble for mankind by creating a constitution cf freedom that have been missed by many previous revolutions, from the French +o the Nicaraguan, "hey all s+ar+ed ou+ xo find freedom and gox sidexrack by *rying *o solve xhe problem of happiness, We here in Lelise have like the Americans cf 1776 have been given an oppor+unixy xo consxituxe freedom on + he Central American mainland a..:d need nox be diverted by he problem of happiness - poverty, because *he .■ .U.-.
Government '-.-.ve done much to gex rid of +hax age old problem here in ’olise.

CCUk"LNAY: S j KULA: let's say, And this is from i x Lindo.

Any questions cf lir Lindo?

I wan+ed +o ask i-r Lindo -‘■his cues*ion: The person who is privileged as Liecvri+y -fficer +o a i.inis*er of Government F i I should be free to communica+e +?.px information +o mombe.

's of xne public.'

s.' LIN-O: 3ut you see the lav/ is very vogue an!


if Jhe iaw would b® -33- more specific +hen you would h 7’ - objections + o i+« Gut if the consxitu+ion should be a practical constitution to l-.JJ,.

: spell ou + in detail everything..... LUJbO: No* everything bu+..... Gould you like +o see people have + he right to publish conics for children wi+h c. lo + of nude pictures?

ijlNLO: Thax’s nor-io.Tr.->.n'-v_ T's morali+y.

Tha+'s pornography, I+'s nox for me + c judge people’s morali+y.
1-UGA: LINGO: Nha+.I am saying is +hax in t he const i+u+ ion .... <.

Things like that yes, bu+ I an afraid +hax ix might be used for o+her raa++ers.

-XOG-I-'.-j t by slander because o+her people have freedom too, you know there is a good example of how liberty and freedom, i+'s not absclu+e« If we are in a .

bou+ and you are sitting down or s+anding up over a spot you don't have +o have have *o have freedom to drill a hole in tha+ boat.
Because if you si+ down over a spo+ you say you own that spot where you si + down.

And if you boro +hax hole in there +ha+ means And if you boro xhax ’'.ole in there +ha* ♦hat all of us are going down, The analogy is xba* the collective freedom would be more important in the end.

LINGO: t/ell, you see what I say is +ha+ we are all human beings and -.■re ar e power comes from the people,wi+houx one group ge+xing xOgexher you don't one have no power.
And once a group gex xoge+her and give you +he power you become representative of +he people who give you +he power and af+er a while, we are human beings and ire like +he glory and +ha+'s wha+ makes i+ interesting, human life power +end +o corrupt so no Government is +he bee* if you don’t have no Government you will have anarchy, you will have anarchy which is worse +han +ha+.

'"hn+ even worse because +ha+ han xhat.

becomes an absolu+e.


That worse +han limi+ed Government, bu+ by lirai+ed Government I mean no + *oo much regulations *o regula+e..... liOGZRC: LINLO: thing..... You could use 'mild* Government.
Yes, well 'mild' Government, +he American revolutionary FiOGGkJ: You see i-ir Lindo, whenever people speak of no Government they mean that you have a federal Government where you pass xhe power +o xho 3+a*e Government in a different se+ up where a coun+rjr is bigger and that's why I unders+and +he people..... LINDO: ?vC'Gij-i3: Yes, yes +ha+..... Ife don't wan+ a federal Government because +he state Government which is also elected by + ha+ particular s+axe and so *he question is never what an absolute is.
I naan you have +o organize is.

socie+y, if no+ we get like +he animals and +o organize society i+'s to find out + e will of +he people and in a representative democracy those represen+a+ives have delegated powers for tha+ period of + in^ after that you hold +hem +o account and say let's us see if you did a good job.

You did a bad job you can't be back 'here again, cr if you have things in chaos, you have lack of confidonc- nfore +ho period end you finish C 1 J !

anyhow.
anyhow.

mhax is +he './hole basic of which xhe '.enccr?.xic base on You -34- mus+ have Government, y-- ■ ■ ycv.

;..usx have projects, even your -son o. balancing idea of ♦he budget xha+'s because ycu will ask your representatives +o do +his, they will determine budget.

You either ?.avc eno system or ncx and -aio is the system we have.
You -ave You •a question; LuxIN: I jus+ wan+ +o f£ng ou+ from Ar Lindo tjj* + >is White ?aper is under the monarchial system and 3 form of Government is unitary s+a+e as against a federal G a*e so it is not consisionx +o quote t’.

'ose terms.

LINDO: □ere freedom No, I only put +ha+ in xh3 interest of freedom because i want rOGD-IC: Order, Order.

( interrupt ion) COUkmDlUY: Par+icularly about xhe reservation, '■here is ?.
xhere in statement of broad freedom, arbitrary freedom and xhen -'here ja a canction, a check if you may call i* xha- if a la?/ violates +he consti+uxion +he \RVS been So should be expressed and does no+ fall under one of xh.eso exceptions.

i in other words the only limi*axions +ha* can be made up of any freedom are those + hax arc specifically put here.
How in cAher words xhe situa­ tion which you con*empla*e xra* we xake one of *he excep+ions and v/e use it for nefarious purposes, ^hat situation could be checked by any citizen who goes before *he Supreme Court and says: now this freedom has been violated by a piece of law in a way which v/ns nox conxerapla+ed by xhe constitution.

Now tha* is +he check *hax xho Whi+e Paper provides right/ o And +he question tha* 1 wanx +o put xo you - den ’x you feel safe if the courts are to remain impar+ial?
LIHDC: Well, yes.

Thank you, i'.r Lindo.

LlvG-ikvj: address.

KilNCJ: 2OG32-U.

MiJCj Er Doyle Yrince, :re know your name.

Could you give us your -- oOo-- No 7 Water Lane.

Could you +ell +his Comnit+ee if you are representing a group?

ilepresen+ing +he Libert Division, People's United ?ar+y as Chairman.

We make a submission under article 11 'citizenship*.

a .i 0 Gi'-t j: Mr Doyle xrince submix+ed his.


'his was xhrough *he Secre- xary and I will then read over and this is your submission: over Oa behalf of *he Albert Division of xhe People's United -arxy, xhe following obser­ vations on j.r+icle 11 under Ci+izenship contained in +he Jhi*e taper are pu+ forward for consideration a+ *he special ccnvenxion.
Of +he new ii features set ou+ in xhe Whixe Paper we have some concern xhax righ+s of citizenship - a precious thing + o us - shall no* rashly be given xo persons us who are no* borne Belizeans.

Pegisxra+ion bug* be regarded as a privilege and we doubt whether for example, an illegal alien or an alien convic+ed an of serious crimes should be registered as a ci+izen merely because he has been resident con*inously in Delias five years immediately before independence day.
’’’hose five years may well have bean spenx in jail.

..'e also doubt xhax a person who has been regis+ered and who •‘■hen abuses c J' -35- +he privilege of citizenship by conduct offensive + o our way of life should be permitted to remain a citizen of Belize.

In the United S+a+es of america, a naturalized ci+izen losos his na+ionali+y if is convic- ed of serious crimes.
Be have in mind +he drug peddlers, +rafficers of omu+, pornography, prosti+u+ion, gun runners, foreign agen+s and sabo+eurs as well as people convic+ed of murder, ‘rsason and o+hcr serious crimes.

-ha* kind we mos+ certainly do not want and + hey should have no vo + e - no voice and no privilege in +he new Belize, de hope + ha+ these de hope + ha+ concerns will be considered by + he Join* Committee.

ROGERS: Hq thank you for your submission hr frince.

anything else?

.
anything else?

.

RlNCEs Yes, in addition +o +ha+ i* is s+a+ed here a person who is married +o a Belizean citizen can automatically become a Belizean ci+izen.

o dha+ is the position if +ha+ person's charac+er is so *errible, ha+ person's charac+er is so J-©r.t?ible, they are a liability +o the community.

Wouldn’t +ha* person lose his citizenship even though he is married +o a Belizean?
COURTENAY: I think you are making a proposal here Mr rince and I wonder whether +ha+ would be adequate for tfca+ purpose as well because a person who ge+s his na+ionali+y by being he spouse of ano+her person will have + o register, right?
Go + ha+ your proposi+i+ ion is also +ha+ a person have Go +ha+ your propositi*ion is also +ha+ a good behaviour or else runs +he risk of losing his na+ionali+y, or getting it or losing i+, R0GER3; I feel t.ha* that would be covered as well because this con+em- pla+es registration.

We understand your proposal and if there are no more questions +hen I have + o +hank you for your clear presentation.

The nex+ One moment f.;r Prince, a name is Mr Fred Moody.
One moment Mr Prince, a member wish +ha+ you be recalled.

GUNTER: MUG A: PRINCE: R0GER3: ’’’his is for +he records.

We would like + o know wha+ you +hink abou+ ‘he i/hi + e Paper.

We undoubtedly support +jie Jhi + e Paper.

Thank you Mr Prince.

---0O0--- ROGERS: Mr Moody, could you please come forward?

Hr Moody, we have your name, could we please have your address?

MOODY: ROGERS: HOCDY: No 113 Cemetery Road.

And you appear before +he Commit+ee as a ci+izen?

as a citizen.
as a citizen.

.....human imperfections and for + hax *he paner has been turned open for +he ci+izens + o give- *heir opinion.

There is one point +hough which I would suggest and which I +hink should be included in the constitution and +h: ‘- is language.

I think i+ should + h?.‘- is language.

be included +ha+ English is the official language f Belize and continues be the official language of Belize.
The reason for *ha+ is because of + o our geographic location we are considered +o be in La+in America where we are Spanish is the overwhelming and over-riding language of ‘he people, and it might be said again +ha+ since we are divorcing ourselves from Bri+ain I only using English because we were once dominated by +he Crown, we are .nd if you look a* the census s+a+is+ics you will see where +he La+in popula+ion is growing fas+er +han wha+ you call +he English and Creole speaking population.
And i+ might reach +he xime when cer+ain parents -36- migh+ want +o say, well don,x 'each my children English in school, I want ♦ hem +o talk Spanish.

3u+ if p is ■ Gn in +he cons+i+ution + ha+ English is +he official language +hen *here could >e no doubt.

-e can see wha+ is happening today in Canada where +he French citizenry wan+ to ♦rea+ *hemselves as separa+e, as French.

"hey don 1♦ wan+ + o speak English, xhey don1♦ want +o even +alk i + in school.
... similar incident took place in Panama some+imc ago where, because of Amoricnl influence and Jest.

Indian influence, English was becoming xhe nominal facxcr and pressure has had +o be used whereby i was declared + ha + Spanish is ♦he official language of Panama, "hose are my humble submissions.

ho se ROGERS; Thank you for your contributions Mr Moody.

Any questions?
Any questions?

..UNTeR: I wan+ *o bring +o +hc a’+en+ion of Hr Moody +ha+ jus+ +his morning i+ was sugges+ed + ha+ Spanish should be + he official language, or ♦hat i+ should be one of 4 he fficinl languages.

MOODY: I believe that Spanish should be +augh+ in school.

I believe +ha+ i+ should be par+ of +he curriculum but + o have +wo languages would presen4 a lot of problems, a lot of problems.

I+’s ge++ing +o be expensive.

I+'s happening in +he Unixed S+ates 4oday.


Because xhe Unixed S+axes Governmen4 is +rying + o satisfy +he Puerto Rican population instead of insis+ing +ha+ since *hey have come to live in +he United 3+n+es, they should mark time.

In other words, Mohammed should +ry +o get to +he mountain instead of trying to get +he mountain +o come to him.

I de feel + ha+ Spanish should be a part of +he curriculum at every school and every child born in Belize should know +o speak both English and Spanish.
HUNTER; Mr Moody complimen+ed +ho 'Jhi + e Paper, Can we take i + + ha* you suppor* i+?

MOODY: In my humble way of doing things I never compliment any+hing I don't support.

—0O0— ROGERS: We have another wi+ness + o appear, F'r Delvi+h Re+readge Sr. RETRSADGE: My address is No 3177 Supai S+reot, 3elize City, ROGERS: You are here as?

RETREj.LiGE: I am here before ♦his CotsmiX4ee on behalf of me and my family.
I support +he nreposed cons+i+u+ion for *he Independent Belize issued by +he Government of Belize.

ROGERS: Mr Re+readge supports xhe V/hixe Taper.

RETRE.JJGE: And also + he Ccmmi++ee.

• ROGERS: You selec+ the Join4 Selec+ Commi+ 4ee.

Je have orders from +he Mouse.

This Commi++ee is acting under xhe authority of 4he Na+ional Assembly, constitutionally appoin+ed +o hear comnen+s on ♦he 'Jhi+e Paper.
So we wish +o +hank you for +he expression of support so clear Are there any o+her citizen who wish + e comment on +he Jhi + e Taper.'

Je ♦hank all those who attended the sitting here today.

"hank you very much.

---0O0--- COURTENAY: The Joint Select Committee of the Natin.nl assembly is called to order.

I wish to say xv/o things.

First of all +o repeat +he fact that I wish to say xv/o things.
the au+hority of the Join* Solee* Ccrami+ 4 ee emerges from +he resolutions passed by + he Na+ional Assembly, ' ♦he scope of i*s authority i3 limited +o hearing views on + he .

'hi + e +'apor.

'’’his Ccmmi+d-ee has no powers +o deal wi+h makers o+her + han +he c ns+i+u+ional proposals.

By +his I do -37- no* mean + ha+ if somebody wan*s so.

■ia I do mean is +ha+ we will no* discus.

o*hcr subjects.

Secondly, mean is + ha+ we will *o propose an a ’di+ion +ha+ he may not do b..ing o +he a* + en+icn <.
f any members -f +he press who might be P ' W^a he laws of +he National Assembly of Belize are.

This is a g *-f a Committee of +he Naxional Assembly and ■‘■he law says *ha+ no P ■ sh.,11 publish any master +ha+ takes place in any Committee of xhe nal x.sscmbly before *ha+ Committee has had +he o jicr* uni+y +o report e Na ion._l Assembly, anybody who violates +ha+ migh* find themselves in con‘enp+ of *he Na+ional Assembly an?
may have *o face tha+ si+ua+ion« I jus+ explained +he rules for *he benefit of any member of +he press who is not aware of it.

And new we are open *c hear + he submissions of any /.nd now we person or persons or crganiza+ions who wish +o come before us this afternoon.

Nobody wan+s *c come forward, Is *here any person or persons who wish + o make submissions?

Jell, since •'here are no such persons we are adjourning xhe si+*ing of +his committee, Belize City for *oday.
We will meet once again in Belize Ci+y on cia+urday morning a+ 9:00.

—0O0— it o 6 d- <3 Fifth Meeting of the Joint Select Committee t ppointed to examine, consider and :report on the hite Paper - Proposed-Terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize, held in,Belize City on Saturday, 21 February 1981.
VERBATIM - 9.00 a.m. Chairman The Committee is authorised by resolution passed in the House and Senate of the, National Assembly and directed this Committee to canvass the;opinions of the Belizean people before presenting its final report to the National Assembly.

I wish to call to order the meeting of the Joint Select Committee of the National Assembly.
I would wish once again to repeat the fact that this, these proceedings of tie National Assembly, and as such the rules, the Standing Orders of the National Assembly apply to all proceedings.

This means two things of significance firstly, that our terms of reference, our authority is limited to the resolution which was passed ly the National Assembly and that resolution asked, us to consider and to report on the White Paper tabled-by the Government of Belize.
We cannot go outside those parameters,-so that submissions which relate to other matters are none of our concern.

That's the first part so that I would like to invite those who wish ,to make submission, to limit their submissions to the White Paper as much as po®.ble, or to any amendments or additions to, it.. Secondly, the rules of the House would'like that the proceedings of a Committee of either- of.
the House should remain, should not be published until the Committee has had an opportunity to report to the House.

I think we understand the reason for it, the House appoints a Committee to report to it and it doesn't want bits and pieces of the proceedings of that Committee published until the House has had a chance to receive its report, thereafter you are totally free to publish anything.

I have a list of persons wishing to come before us, and I call the first, Mr. Reginald Brooks.■ HON.

V.H.
V.H.

Courtenay.

Good morning, Mr. Brooks.

Mr. R'i> Brooks s Morning.

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenays Where do you live, Mr. Brooks, , ’ o '.

'I l < (2) Mr. R. Brooks: 22 Dickson Street.

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: And you appear as a private citizen or are you representing someone else?

Mr. R. Brooks: Private citizen.

The White Paper preamble,- I support the preamble in its entirety.

Page 2 and 3 fully-support it.

Page also, Page 5 also, Page is O.K.

and 7.


Also Page 8.’ Page 9 paragraph 16, the third line that reads, by the.

Queen as her representative, I suggest that it b.e amended, by .

the Queen, of England.

I am going to give you the reason because there are some people- suggesting that this .

Constitution is not going to be within the .Commonwealth and I said alright well I think it .is-going to be., well,.
I went through the White Paper I am not so 'certain that there is not another Queen somewhere else,, inthe world.,.- and so I said the Queen of England will b.e appropriate : in this particular case to make things straight.

.

That's, one observation.

Hon.

v.-H. Courtenay: Thank you.

Mr. R. Brooks: Page 9 paragraph 18.

Hon.

V.H.


Courtenay: On the question of Commonwealth, I just talk to, for- your information, I will draw your attention to paragraph 15 where we are trying to prove to people that irtention is to remain within the Commonwealth.

Mr. R. Brooks: I saw that.

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: You say that, Citizens of the Commonwealth.

Mr. R. Brooks: ■ That committee was not really Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: I understand .


Mr. R. Brooks: Paragraph 18 "The Cabinet shall be the principal.instrument of policy with general direction and control of.

the.-- ... .

Government of Belize and shall be collectively responsible to the National Assembly for all things done by or under the authority of any Minister in the execution of his .

office.

It shall consist of the Prime Minister and such number of Ministers as may be appointed by the Governor- I understand, but I was .just ...
In relation to the- Cabbinet .. .

.

.. ; *3 o <3 o c (3) General."

The point I wish to bring to the attention of this Committee is that it says "and such number of Ministers" and I have an,amendment- to that providing that such number not exceed the number of back benchers belonging to the ruling party in the House.

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: Please, Sir, we wish you to comment on that.
Mr. R. Brooks: The reason for having in the House of Representatives not more Ministers that back benchers in the same party is that the Ministers would be able to listen or be influence by a majority of back benchers in the same party.

At the same time, we would give the Government a balance to run their affairs without any fear from the opposition or anyone.

.

Now if the Government needs additional Ministers to run the country to govern the country which must be done, if it is necessary.
Then I have suggestion that those Ministers should be drawn from the Senate and for that reason when it comes to the question of Legislature, you will be hearing what I have to propose in relation to the Senate.

Now we go to Page No.

23.

All the others are supported.

Hon.

V, H. Courtenay: Thank you.

May I read it for you, Sir; ■ Mr. R. Brooks': Yes Sir.

Hon.

V.H.
Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: If the House of Representatives passes a Motion declaring that it has no confidence in the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister shall either resign Mr. R. Brooks: Stop right there.

Our present Constitution has something to-effect as resign in three years, but if this particular Paper say we will have Independence although the resignation of a Prime Minister would be imperative once ..the motion is passed I think there should be some time alloted or.
fixed when to complete or finish or wind up in business.

For that reason I would suggest, I am not fixing anything, but I would suggest that a time limit be fixed so that well, we must have sufficient■time to wind up in business' and' if just in three days, I- believe is not enough for-that.

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: I see. '

, ■.

• • (4) Page 13 paragraph 37.

Pa^e 11 supported also.

Mr. R. Brooks: Page 10 supported otherwise'.

Page 12, I sunport it also.


The Legislature, House of Representatives The House of Representatives shall consist of 35 seats as follows: Corozal, Orange Walk, Stann Creek and Toledo Districts, three seats each.

Belize Rural North and South two seats each; Belize City Division, Freetown, Fort George, Albert and Collet Divisions three seats each.
The Senate shall consist of 16 members, the Prime Minister shall name 9 Senators, the Loader of the Opposition shall name 4 Senators if there is more than one Opposition party in the House, the Opposition Patty shall name two Senators each etc.

In other words if you have three Opnosition parties, then the division of those parties may be left to the Governor-General to' decide how they shall be divided.

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: But they’11 have four seats.

Mr. R. Brooks: They'll have four seats.

Hon.


V.H.

Courtenay: Three members left.

Mr. R. Brooks: ' Yes, the union of Christian Churches shall name two ' Senators and the Governor-General shall name one Senator.
The 16 Senators however shall be appointed by the■ Governor-General, now, I want to make one point oh the Senators in relation to their status in the Senate, removal from the Senate, was far as removal from the' is concerned and if the Senator once appointed to the Senate shall have the same status as an elected member of the House of Representative and can only be removed from the Senate by similar means applicable for members of the House of Representatives.
I wish to make a little comment on that part, as speaking from my own experience, we have, let us say, talking in the extreme, the Leader of the Opposition or the Prime Minister can remov'e a Senator from the House in less than 48 hours, and the Governor can not, or may not, even question the reasons why, under the present Constitution that we have now and although we have not reached face to face with such a problem we cannot tell what the future may bring in relation to the Government, let us say today but twenty years from today maybe up to the Eighteen Thousand.
Q o O <s I I (5) .... .. And if you get, if you have 4 Senator that has a big stick over his head, ho may not be able to resist or stand up to his conviction and he may be yielding to pressure and may do things that he wouldn’t do otherwise and I can give you one example in my opinion and I .am talking from my experience, it may well be that's why we do not have a whole representative of this same committee siting here today because no Senator wouldn't dare to venture accepting sitting on the Committee and risking losing his seat in the National Assembly.
And so that is the point I wanted to put out.

Now, just as how a Senator can be a member of the House once he is elected, if he is even placed as a Minister he could be removed as a Minister but he cannot be removed from the House and that is the point I wish to bring, that when appointed a Senator the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition should make up their minds as to who they can trust and in this particular case the ^trouble i’s not generally with the ruling party.
The trouble, the ruling party generally, both parties have the big stick but one of the parties generally hold the big stick in his hand, both of them have it, one hold it in their hand all the while, and'that’s the difference so I am suggesting that when the Senator is appointed, once he is appointed he must be remain by similar means that is through the Law Post Committee on that sort of business.

Hon.

V.H.
Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: Let me just understand one thing, .you are contemplating however, that he is appointed for one term.

Mr. R. Brooks: Yes, one term.

He’d have to be re-appointed again.

Now in relation to the 16 Senators up to the Senate now, if you have in this case 18 members of the House to form the Government in this particular proposition.
Well' you have 18-17, let us assume that the ruling party would need m Ministers to run the country, now this proposition is that the Government should only have, not more than 9 from the House of Representatives, and other five-should come from the Senate; now that is to safe-guard against when you have more Ministers than back benchers you..have the Ministers generally influence the House and the Government is really not stable”, if you have well, it hasn't happened yet because I am seeing things'not going too bad, but' it can happen, and that is what I am providing.
(6) : .

■ ' def - cannot believe that the same thinking Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay:' I think as Parliamentarians, we understand what you ....

But, your understanding of back benchers include Members of Representatives.

Mr. R. Brooks: Yes, Members of Representative's.

No, no.

Back benchers I am referring in ....


I don't know if there is any elementary making for treason, that is .... if that is not in the .... then I wou.ld not introduce what I'wanted to point out for you that in our Constitution that we are preparing we have to make ......The question of treason, I have point that the observation of the Constitution should not happen, by no means can amend it, I am referring directly to approve.
You see we have to see a little distance left, we have to assume and have something to.the effect ..... Now to aggravate the' Constitution as happened in some countries that who takes place in the Commander of Arm Forces consider, it and plan,' and we are coming into a. situation where we of mind may not be in that direction and before the seeds are sown provision should be made to safeguard against such'thing.
I don't know if it will.be done in acting Legislation or by Constitutional means but you are the wizards in this thing and you must decide.

But as just to point it out so that you can have in mind what is in mind.

The--.next-thing is the question of subversion of our country.

I'm only commenting, I am not discussing it and for many of you subversion of our country by our .listening, agencies our local CAE let us call it Belmopan Intelligence Services and so on.

That is to defend our ......we.


have people from abroad coming in residents in here we may not know who they are, we might be sumpathetic to some of them but then you are not being sympathetic to them and you don't know.

Well, we must have some listening device to ascertain when anything might be going wrong.

That is to our internal defence.

Hon... F.J. Marin: Strong Intelligence.

Hon.

V.H.
Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: Citizen., I understand that point very well, the purpose of preventing a complete observation of the Constitution.

1 was- just wondering whether you have any thoughts on treason, now treason is not included ... 0 o r> 0 I?

I 0 (7) ' Mr. R. Brooks: That is why I mention .... Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: But we will now put that in our Criminal Code, because treason will be a crime.
But this part of treason if you fave it in the Constitution it is binding on any Government that gets in there.

It is a must.

It demands it.

And you are thinking of use of military force.

Mr. R.Brooks: The use of military force, yes.


And one final point in relation to election, now it is accepted that the majority of people voting in an election decide the winner in any particular constituency, , I would suggest that the methods we have at present -while we have practice that method for several years, now that we are going into Independence we must make sure that we truly represent the majority of the poeple in each, particular case.
Particularly with the National Assembly, and it is not something that might not be known but I have been giving it a thought and suddenly I realize 'that it is important that it be done.

And that is in the event that you have an election and you have say 300 people on the Voters roll and you have 100 people turning out to vote, you have four votes spoilt and you have ■ three candidates, one candidate get 25, the other .
candidate get 26, and the other candidate get 44, now what I am suggesting is that the winner in this case would be the one that has 44 as is here now.
But he would not represent the 96 outed voters, because you have too much spoilt vote it wouldn't represent the 96 voters, the majority of the 96 that came out to vote, so I suggest that they'll give the Chief Electoral Officer and Boundaries Commission or the Returning Officer fix at the earliest possible time for a second balance, between the two candidates the winner and the one that got the most- and the runner up and then the winner there would become the will of the people.
And it'could happen that instead.of 96 turning out, the whole 3OO might turn out.

It just could happen but what I am saying it would determine .

that each candJdite is indeed the representative of the majority of voters that turn up.

And so those are.my proposals and submission on my little Constitution and sorry I couldn't do anything more.

E (8) The present My coLeague here would like to Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: Just one second, please, ask you a question.

.Hon.
.Hon.

S. Musa: The question I would like to ask is how many formal resolutions on the divisions of the seats, I notice you said that in Belize City especially, Mesopotamia and Pickstock would be two seats each, Freetown, Fort George Albert and Collet would be three seats each.
Fort George about 1^00 I think, Albert has about almost Fort George will be 700 voter for seat and that 6000 so would be 2600 Mr. R. Brooks: Now the question I saw that before I put it flown, Yes, has it in the of Division would be as tie White Paper hands of the Election and Boundaries Commission.

But the question of population that is what we are interested in.

The voters.

Well it is based on the assumption that every,, not just today but every person born in Belize and on Independence Day is a voter.
In other words its the whole country’s population other than just the Division this is based on.

And as I say if we just regulate it but now I wouldn't recommend that but the Constitution is not something that you could change as you have a mind.

And whatever you put there now, is something that we hold, and I have checked it very carefully and I haven't seen it will upset the status quo and I have already gone into that.

Hon.

V.H.
Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: In other words you are using the assumption that the Boundaries and Elections Committee will be changing.
Mr. R. Brooks: Before you ask any question I want to put this clear in mind, it doesn't have to change, you don’t fix your eye on the population that exists changing later on as the original.part of the White Paper suggested in this particular thing that can be done gradually, but for now let us say in Pickstock for example you say you divide Pickstock from Pickstock Street, from Barrack Road to North Front Street,'this is only an assumption and whatever remain on this side is one, and whatever remain on this side the other, and that is where it ends otherwise you are not putting yourself to go to this kind ' 0 o o o (9) of business for right now.
Because the Election and Boundaries Commission has the power to change it as time goes by.

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: In other words where that formula' is prescribed that the Election and Boundaries Commission should be ready to work.

You are recommending as a part of your submission.

Mr. R. Brooks: That's right.

There is no other question from, my colleaguewe .want to thank you very much for taking your time out to come before us and being so clear in your presentation.
Thank you so much, and I must congratulate the:Committee for their particular preparation.

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: Mr. S. Krohn- And whei?e'>do ;you live Mr. Krohn.

Mr. S. Krohn: No.

6-16th Street, Kings Park.

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: Now, Mr. Krohn, do you hive any submissions?

Mr. S. Krohn: First I'd like to echo a point made by Mr. Frankson last week.

statement of concern for the environment, I think this is a very good recommendation.

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: You appear as a Citizen.


Mr. S. Krohn: Yes, private citizen.

I'm getting to the Constitution Section ^.

(f) Protection against arbitrary search or entry I think there is a dropping from this section it's advice very definition of the word arbitrary that .in no case should there be arbitrary search or entries therefore if we want to amend this provision vie just retain the first sentence, "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention."

Leave it at that.
Leave it at that.

Next Section (i) Protection of freedom of expression One Pause where it says, and for preventing disclo ures made in confidence, I don't see any real need for Constitutional action anywhere to prevent disclosures made in confidence that in many ways part ofthe power of pre-press is based on intact exposing.disclosure made in confidence.
There are other relevancies but.people who In the preamble he pointed out the need for some i I (19) had feel they had Heard by having a disclosure, I don't think they need to be tried in the Constitution, it creates a chilling effect upon the incinination.

.Ion.

V. I. Courtenay: Hr.

Krohn, I would just ask you to raise your voice a little, the traffic is giving us a lot of... to get this done clear.

<-r. S» Krohn: V..».


Let's look Section K, where it says Protection of rij?ht to privacy, In the first place I am sure, you know, it sounds like a very good protection to have, I have a feeling that a protection of a right to privacy is in fact an empty right that is really core properly covered for any protection against arbitrary search or entry and various other sections.
hit if it is going to be in there I suggest there is a drafting problem again similar to the one I mentioned under part (f) No one shall be subject to arbitrary or unlawful interference, i or when something is unlawful it is infact unlawful and there is no way in which you can allow unlawful things, you can find reason of defence, public safety order or rather for your health.

The same rather for your health.

or we apply to word Arbitrary.
Next, I would go to Section 6 Public Emergencies I believe it is all, that both Section 6 and Section 7 and 8 and Section 9 should all be deleted, but don't think there is any Constitutional need for calling a state for Public Emergency, although there may be cases when Government need certain farriers to deal with plough cane and things like that, I believe that they can be covered by acts of a Legislature that will be well in the Fundamental Eights and Freedom or well within the caveats expressed in the Fundamental Eights and Freedom, I don't think there needs to be a separate allowance for public emergencies in the Constitution itself.
Next’, Section 11 Page 3.

I think all the causes in dealing with Citizenship need certain loop holes, for example I don't think it is clearly defined of citizens who have become naturalized under existing law, but it does say people who are born in lelize would become Citizen what , about those who have become naturalized.

It says that they must be entitled to be registered and I would like some clarification as to what this means, entitled to be registered, this registration automatic?

Cf a o o © Jill !
Cf a o o © Jill !

it be passed by a loard of review and if so what criteria 1 would be used by such a board?

Hon.

V.il.

Courtenay: Basically supporting this you have to he a Citizen in (11) Government and this would have to spell out in greater detail, everything about Citizenship including registration etc, and the procedures for registration, and I think all that was sought to be drawn in here was to set out the.

basic procedures was of those people who had a right to make an application.
iut no intention to set it all out because we'll probably make a longer Jill then the whole thin;, we have here.

Hr.

S. Krohn: It will remain so, the problem that .on Independence Day what happens to those, citizens.who have become previously naturalized?

Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: I'll accept that.

Mr. 3.

Krohn: ' Last point I would like to look at.


is Section 11 Page 13, Although I can see the reasons for making, chobsirig this method of electing representatives, I think its going to present some problem, 1 think we should set a flat number of 29 one time rather than make Independence and know how many people happen to be registered by the registering Officers.

I think that would acknowledge then the louse would constitute 29 members, that certainly is a good thing for the public to have.
I also believe that an effort should be made to utilized the one man, one own principle in other words divide’all 29 constituencies to get them as equal, the member as possible.
I don't think the basis for that division should be registered voters, I think it should be total population as numerated in the census presumably then if the census is made- every ten years I think the election involves these conditions should endeavor to reach all those boundaries once every ten years from time to time, as it is now.

Jerhaps I think again, I as it is now.


realize that you cannot make it, make the divisions perfectly equal, perhaps I would say, or suggesting that the largest division shall not have more than 1,000 citizens more than the smallest divisions something along those lines but I would strongly suggest that the qensus be used and have fixed number of seats 29 I think is a good number, depends on the size of House, That's all.

.

'Ion V. I. Courtenay: •: .- > ■.• May I ask a question right there.
At the rate of which population is growing in the country and looking at the, well of course you gone to population, do you think tnat there should ne a formula for increase of seats without necessary an amendment to the Constitution ■ (12) you notice that there is a provision here that once you reach 29 that the Legislature by a .esolution can give new directions to the Government on that.

Hr.

3.
Hr.

3.

Krohn: I think the important, tain g in choosing a number is not that you have one representative for every 5,000, 10,000 or of any particular number you just mt there for example the Legislatures of the .arid maybe of England there's one Representative, one member of Parliament for every lundred Thousands or in the United States it night be ?hree lundred Thousand or a Million.
The important thing is not the number but the fact that there is a large enough number in the Legislature body to conduct their business fairly and with proper expertise.

?.nd two th.it the Citizens be equally represented to got away from the system we have' now where its telling us all that its 10 times more representative, I think if we had a situation by.some vast increase in the country, we got 2 or 3 million people in the ■ country an amendment might be put, raise the number of... Hon.

V.H.
V.H.

Courtenay: I think an amendment would be adequate.

Mr. 3.

Krohn: Page 14, The way it is worded, I just thought of that... Hon.

V.H.

Courtenay: No I think that's, in effect that is saying that there is no two Citizenship.

I could look at that.

Chairman: Now, I think the wording here is, by which he acquires, suppose you don't need a residence am' your Government allow you to take it do you think you should allow that person to keep it?
lecause that is a strong feeling maybe that should be allowed.

Mr. S. Krohn: o o o I would say to make it existent that it shouldn't be allowed, I can see people's objection why because they got this good thing, they would not want to lose- it but I' think in our affairs it should be.

l.ut it shouldn't be allowed.

Again there is the question of zealousness with which the Police o portion could be carried out and right, I think-practice could probably take care of that.

Ion.

V.H.
Ion.

V.H.

Courtenay:,,, The real thing is, that there are acts which I believe would be useful ones like,for example'joining the armforces.

Jon.

C. Rogers: I have one problem and I'm not sure that I am experience h I (13) with that recommendation.

I envisage for instance a situation where you have cholera, am!

therefore restrictions, are based on movements of persons for health reasons, which would be a violation of the lunan lights of freedom of movements.

Mr. 5.
Mr. 5.

Krohn: I don't think so, this doesn't talk about freedom of movement, it talks about the rights to live.. Hon.

C. Kogers: It talks about movement and.

the right to live.

i-ir.

S. Krohn: Veil; yes that's true, I sec your objection, I would revenue that situation by placing the caveat under a freedom of movement rather than make a statement, Yes its just a question of draftnanship or.

.
.

I was just pointing out that the other countries that for was example let me take the United .States Constitution, no where in the Constitution we talk about state of emergency.
Yet Governors of States and Presidents of the United States declare from time to tine states of emergency even Mayors in large cities have known to declare curfews for the Public's safety and these have not been held to violate Constitutional protections anil 1 think that the same spirit could apply, for example you have curfew situation in Jominica where state of emergency has in fact been called.
You have a situation in Salvador where the state of emergency has been called, I envision more abuses of those rights where that state of emergency is called then when it's carried out understood to be common sense exceptions.

I don't even necessarily see the need to put those Caveats under the rights of freedom rather than to be understood an I be defined by the courts.
Jut in fact since the most of the places, England or other part of true democracies they have in fact defined that we need to struggle, I don't follow all of that feeling that they need to be spelled out, or perhaps to assist the Judges H who may not be the Leaders.

don.

V. I. Courtenay: In anyway this is a limitation because you do have varying attitude of courts, the United States court considers the of Fundamental Freedom or what Hr.
S. Krohn: Certainly, but 1 take it the Commonwealth, provision is not going to be amended as not there.

(14) ' ■ j Jon.

V. I. Courtenay: No, that is applied to our country by the Supreme Court of Judiciary Or linance.

Even today, that has not interfered with our problem.

Hr.

J. Nrohn: That would be then a further safeguarding of the rights and a further guide to the magistrates an 1 the Judges.

Non.

V..1.

Courtenay: Certainly, we thank you very ,iuch .ir.

krohn for coming forward.


I wish to Iraw to the attention of ny colleagues that I have received a submission from nr.

a Johnson.

ie resi ies in the Freetown Division, Jelize City and I would like these submission which are on it,- and I hope we can have copies.

are on Next on my list is Councillor Daniel Vincent iieighan.

Hr.

D. iieighan: Good morning Sir, General members of the Joint Select Committee, iiadam.

Jon.

V. I. Courtenay: You are Councillor of the Jelize City Council is that right.
Do you appear on behalf of the Jelize eity Council.

Hr.

D. Meighan: On behalf of the Fort George Executive, don.

¥.11.

Courtenay: liay we hear your proposals then.

lir.

D. Iieighan: >7e support the white Paper, ,e believe that it provides a strong basis for our New Constitution in the Independent Belize.

We propose a few additions, our National .Symbols should be enshrined, the National .inthem, Che Belizean Flag, Coat of arms as well as the National Prayer.
Two, the preamble should include (a) A Pledge to cherish and promote the different culture traditions within Jelize.

(b) A Pledge the people and Government should work to achieve that no elizeans be left without adequate food, clothing, shelter, education and health care.

That No Jelizean who is .able to work de denied opportunity to have a job with which to satisfy his individual needs as well as to ^contribute to the good of his society.

That no Belizean be denied access to study cultural and.sports.
That no disable person be left without subsistence..

Going to (c) the recognition that parents have a duty to provide nourish- ment for their children and to contribute actively to their education and integral ’evelopment as useful citizens.

(<1) O o o o I h I * I (15) 1’he recognition in terns that it is the chil Iren duty to help ani.

respect their parents.

3. defence an!


National .Security, we would like a statement in the Constitution that it is the sacred duty of the Government and oeople of belize, to protect and defend the independence of Belize, the sovereignty and territorial integrety of Belize.

Our Constitution should state the defence of Belize is the greatest honour and the supreme duty of.every Belizean citizen.
and the National Assembly is in power to pass laws, to regulate military Service including the power to introduce mandatory National Service or Conscription.

This is to say we should have the whole Constitution, the law to set up a draft board where one can be drafted and become of age, we ,iust serve, come quick to serve in the arm forces of Belize, 4.
Citizenship, (a) Not only by acquiring citizenship of another country but also those who without the approval of Government serve in the arm forces of another nation, or who ‘by any act shows loyalty of any country to the betterment of Belize.

le enforce it, Citizenship.

(b) The National Assembly may determine senses and conduct unbecoming that may lea1’, to the loss of Citizenship by naturalized citizens.
The person who is not a citizen of Belize may be appointed as a budge of the Supreme Court for internal affairs and should cease to hold office at declaration of doctor.

6.

The Constitution 6. should clearly state that we are free to decide on which treaties we want to ratify and which one we want to reject.
(7) •e recommend that the office of the Ombudsman should be established by the Constitution, he should be an officer of the National Assembly, his main function shul.l be to investigate complains of Citizens or matters brought to his attention by a member of Parliament in respect of abuse or injustice or alleged discourtesy against any public body .

or public officer.

(B) Composition of the louse; The .louse should at all times have an uneven number except for these suggestions we consider the .
'hite Paper a good framework for our future Independent Belize.

Particular, we strongly support the principles of Cabinet Government Parliament Democracy and the independence of the Judiciary an'!

the safe­ guard of our luman -fights which are provided for in the Waite Paper.

.

Gentlemen, I thank you on behalf of the Executive of the Port weorge to allow me ti present our submission to this Committee.

'.’hank you.

Hon.

V.,1.

Courtenay: Anybody has any questions?


Thank you very much and we wish that you'd be safe and (16) Executive an!

we report to work as Executive and we appreciate your representation.

Thank-you very much.

Next, iir.

Armando Castillo.


Just one ..minute.d.r, Castillo, members of the Committee I wish to report that the Freetown division of the People's United Party has made a submission in writing, I wish to rea I the: letter and, will ask that should be copied so that we .can all have copies, right.

..nd I believe yo i have appeared before us before iir.

Castillo.

Isn't that correct Sir, an1 will be giving a further submission.

Hr.

A. Castillo: Further submission.


Not as tile same principle as before C o though.

Jon.

V.J.

Courtenay: Uhat is your address, Please?

iir.

A. Castillo: 137 Cor.

of Ilex and Amara Avenue.

Jon.

V. I; Courtenay: Yes, hr.

Castillo.


Mr. 21 • Cast i11o: First of all I would like to bring to your attention to Page 1 item (a) the last line, I do not know if this is a grammatical error but it says, dignity of the human person and the equal and inalienable rights with which all members of the human family arc endowed by their Creator.

I would like the word "the Creator".

In this Constitution there are more than one creator.

Jon.

V.J.
Jon.

V.J.

Courtenay: It's our creator fiat- has created all of them, but anyway, your submission is that is should remain brief.

Hr.

A. Castillo: Yes, Page 11 item 30, I shall just read a part of it, what I would like to be deleted an!
made a submission "Je shall be the member of the iouse of -epresentatives, who in the judgement of the Governor-General, is best able to .command the support of a majority of those members who do not support the Government," I would like that paragraph, to be deleted and my argument on that is because the Governor-General represents the mueen, it Coes not .
necessarily meant to the iessent of the opposing team of the people of Jelize, ho will pick the Leader of the Opposition Leader in the interest of the cueenand not the Jelizean People.

.

.

o o- C» a (17) Jon.

V.J, Courtenay: The principles are simple, we are sitting around here and we elect ?

ir.

Monsanto as our Leader the Governor- General pass through here and tell us no.

.,nd if he calls the Senator, the 3endt;>r w>ul I say no until he passes w>uld say no i ir.

monsantd right?

Hr.


A. Castillo: Veil, I d.Qn't know, I am only assuming that...

I don't know, I o so as a'protection because... Chairman: Let me ask you another question, suppose there are four members of the Opposition elected two want that particular person and the other two want somebody else, who decides which should it be?

Mr. A. Castillo: bell, if there is no coapromiseis made,, I would go to the ielize Advisory Council.

Jon.

V.il.
Jon.

V.il.

Courtenay: ' Alright, we take your point, i’hank you very much, is there any other you would wish to comment.

Mr. A. Castillo: No 33 The Jelize .ilvisor.Y Council, Council which shall consist of a minimum of six members, and I wo,ill like a maximum of 5.

With two appointed, by the Opposition Leader, an!

on the advice of the Opposition Leader.


Chairman: The exception is, the conservation is that the Advisory Council, Leader of the Opposition, arid you are asking me now to let me Advisory Council.

Mr. A. Castillo: well.

I realize that but wi.it I wanted to do is to have full support of the Council because I do not want us to be completely automatic.

lion.

V..I.

Courtenay: Any' other' point iir.

Castillo?

Mr. A. Castillo: Yes Sir, Page 14 No.


44, "A person shall be disqualified it from election but it goes on to say, 'ias been convicted of any offence relating to elections, I' would like that to be deleted, related to elections, to me... 1 Chairman: Any offence?

Any offence, including a traffic offence.

Mr. A Castillo: Chairman: Parking on th •wrong side of the road, an’, you can't ci-... , Castillo: Hr.

Jon.

V.J.

Courtenay: (18) You Can't You really mean that.

Hr.
Hr.

... Castillo: Jell not in that ser.se bat what I mean It's criminal.

I shoul!

put it the criminal... Jon.

Courtenay: Crime.

Hr.

... Castillo: Like if he is convicted of Like if he is convicted of stealing or shop lifting he shoul '.

not be a Representative of the douse, 3ut the way it is spelt here that if he is convicted of a Urine he O could still be in the louse.

Ion.

Courtenay: ..Iright, any other point.

Hr.

A. Castillo: Another point is, I'd like to make it to Page 26 No.
100 Code of Conduct it has here; have a duty to conduct themselves in such a way as not etc.

Like the word have a duty to be delete'1., an-', put shall conduct themselves.

'That is all my submission I have.

Jon.

Courtenay: 'Thank you very very much Hr.

Castillo to come in before us again, your further talks and the clear submissions.

iir.

Norman Gimpliss, please?

Horning Mr. Simpliss, you are welcome....' Hr.

Simpliss: embarking...

Morning, thanks a lot.

Now before Hon.


Courtenay: before embarking-, just for the records may I have your address please.

Hr.

Simpliss: Santa Siena, Cayo district.

Jon.

Courtenay: And you represent?■ iir.

Simpliss: yself, my views.

iefore embarking, what I consider ray views in my what you'd say, my untutored and inexport eyes I should like to pay a special indulgence to say unhestitating it that our Government should be complimentary for taking this particular measure.
..nd I a.i not enacting otherwise I did not say that and further more to have given the1 .elizeans to assist, the first step I tie in use the .bite Paper for Government has laid the keys and they have asked not selfishly but unselfishly all of us to assist in the further, or the com'lotion of the lelizean Arn.

Jon.

Courtenay: Thank you very much.

o o iir.

Simpliss: .Veil, any further ado, I thank you for the ■Veil, any further ado, privilege to say all my views.

No.

1.
No.

1.

I think in the Constitution, No.

1. firstly it should be written that the lelizean Nation should have a Coat of arms, I do not agree with the present motto, Sub Umbra rloreo, probably that could be taken a thought, other people are probably more intelligent than I, to say something about it, like t II & e God 31ess delize or Long Jelize.

Chairman: Just the woryou don't like?

* (19) iir.

Ginpliss: Chairman: depicted.

Yes tiie word Bub Umbra Floreo .low about the Coat of Arms, what should be Hr.
uirapliss: i'hey should if again it should be stated if whether what is on the flag, lecause the present Coat of Arms that stands on the Court Iduso’, that is now the Coat of Arms of the country.

I should have made that clear.

I am saying that we should have a Belizean Coat of Arms.

Then, the Seal of the Belizean.

1 think it is already accepted that within the Constitution we should bet everything that, is contained in the...
I think it's already accepted, the flag the blue and white flag that's used in the constitution we should get the meaning of the colours and everything it contains.

fhen we go on to the anthem, I am quite sure we would not like to change the Land of the Gods.
Our national Prayer cun an 1 to add a little thought in respect of our teaching from th.-t we go to church, wp recognise the God and the use of what we call special function we feel Oh God our help in ages past, so I think if we sing u'i God our help in ages past as the national hymn for sped 1 occasions.

Oh God we are mindful of the fact that on this day, God hpve been greatly done to have let us safely through with our very much calm and all the rest of it and.
we are now on the threshold of going on our own.

Our White Paoer.page 2 (1) we have here the last line the boundary that is known defined, right.

3ut I would like to take it a little bit further, that:.owing to the fact that our Barrier Beef that is known as the Second largest in the world and it is still the Virgin Barrier -leef, it should be protected and beyond this range therefore in the Constitution we should have what we call an economic zone.
For territorial waters and beyond in order thereby for the protection of our liarinetime field life and the possibilities of mineral on the surface and below io know too.well today that Great Britain is reaping quite a lot from the Berth Sea, United States is being form oil by Japan and resettling in Hexico is paying something to that effect, so vze dbn't want to fall into so this track and as I say, I know well enough that we have intelligentzia's who will be putting this thing together but if this is the privilege, I think every Jelizean should exercise it and I have given this a very thorough thought.
I am sure I have left out quite a lot, but these are some of the little things.

i 1 (20) Ur.

Siiapliss:Cont.

’/e have hero page.

3 of section ...*... privilege.

It s under this topic which is not mentioned but It's as I see it that tae right to challenge any law, ordinance or .anything done under the Constitution as to»whether it is within the Constitution or not and this right to should be written within the Constitution because it might O be on Constitution.
Page 3 Section 4, then I think we should take it a little further.

detention, we get the time limit there you are not to be taken 24 hours.

.

'hen we go to page 5 - Appeal.

There again I think there should be provision Acquitted in the .Supreme Court and that's final.

I think in the Magistrate's Court, if a person is acquitted he is acquitted.

Chairman: Go ahead.

.->o wha you arc talking about is the right of appeal against acquittal.
You think that they... Mr. uimpliss: Yes that the interest of import that by a person is acquitted fine, final in the lower court you know and I know too well that quite a number of people go through a lot of hassle and all the rest.

Chairman: You think the Police does not have the right of appeal?

Mr. Simpliss: I feel that once the Magistrate .says that this is final, that this is the verdict, that should be it.

war.
war.

Then we go on to page 7 (a) that Jelize is engaged in I am quite sure and you will agree that the Constitution should point out the existing circumstances involving this declaration that Jelize is engaged in war.

In other words, give the point that external a egression as the case may be and what a ;gression a;.> o o C> e I- ; 5 v. ' J ■ * ■ r .

1 (71) Mr. Simpliss: and what not.

I mean there can't be a war unless, think for clarification, it should be defined.
Then, not quite sure whether I sec the reason under Public Safety and again, that it should b<' mention, that the establishment but I I am .. and maintenance of an arm force, air, land and sea for the purpose of suppresion, internal and external aggresion.

Thon next to that comes the establishment of our Police.

Force, whether it will be a military, semi-military or strictly a it should bo stated there a-s the occasion I don't think that an early stage will bo'able to civilian body.
Chairman: What are you recommending?

Mr. Simpliss: In other words, demands it; we ere going into this thing we know experts’arc­ going to come in, and well say good we think we should make the Police Force stand as a semi-military organization.

Good enough.

I think those should bo written.

V. H. Courtonay: You think the establishment of a Force should be created by the Council?

Mr. Simpliss: Should be.

say, well, mention the strike, give the maximum is not so easy, here on page 7 between 8 and 9.
Excellency go on and you give the maximum period one month when the legislature, well they can make resolution, but its not mention if the legislature will take this immediately'after the Governor General proclamation false or complete or before.
Chairman: The concept here, and I'm pleased, I'll just explain it so that you can tell us what you would like, end remember that that the executive, the Governor-General, he acts on the advice of the Minister, he c"r declare a state of emergency, it may not last beyond one month.
Now, if the' legislature may extend that particular state of emergency and then they decide Yes things arc in chaos "nd wo do -need the extraordinary powers because that's what we're talking about, and they may extend it further, but the concept is that the executive of it's own, is limited to the introduction of the state of emergency for a period of one month.
That's the' We can say not less but to say Then, I am slightly puzzled This proclamation by His The- concept here is h r 1 22 basic thing that we have tried to s\y, .-nd of course, the legislature may mean, let's say the Government declared a, or the Governor-General, declares a state of emergency today, within five or six days the legislature may meet and put an end to that state of emergency.
On other words, the concept that we are trying to put into the ' hite Paper, is that people's representative should be the people really who exercise authority.

However, since these things happens That's suddenly, Government may be able to act overnight.

the concept there now.


If you feel that that is a workable you adopt it but if you feel that you would like to see one, something else then.... Mr. Simpliss: I think it would be a little clearer if probably something else is added on to, well, the Governor-General's power stop there and the people's representatives... Chairman: You would like that added?

Mr. Simpliss: Then we go to page 20, 74 there is no mention of Magistrate's Court.
I would like this to be included and such other courts as may be deemed necessary.

for code rates and laws be under the constitution.

We do know also that we have-a Monetary Authority, and I think the existence anfl the powers of the Monetary Authority should also be included.

Chairman: I think we will probably put that under the section of finance right?

Mr, Simpliss: Quite possible, then we have no central bank in Belize.

I go safe an.d secure independence.

(9th point), be stated in.


our constitution, that no part of Belize under no circumstances should be parted with at any time so as to make less our territory or our territorial waters by any Belize Govern­ ment.

Me mi_ght die and some other people come in and we want it there to ’be stated there in no uncertain terms.
And finally, as ‘.far as I can see the constitution of Belize should provide for the necessar-' security from the bnited Kingdom It should Then 9 O Q O <0 f <d'r a arm forces, or further specific, or further period with the stated amount of period if the necessity demands it.

-• 23 -* .

These are my submissions.

Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Simpliss, for taking the to come down.

We appreciate the effort you have made and the trouble records will show our appreciation.

Your address, Mr. Silva?


I appear on behalf of my- Chairman: Mr. Hector Silva, please, next, Mr. Silva: No.- 53 Barracks Road, Belize City, self.

Civ ir; inn: We ; re ■: pp to have you and to hear what you have to say.

Mr. Silva: I Lave with me here, I hope it's no loiger confidential, a confidential report from 1968, on the proposed constitution for Belize, 1968, with the Governor's signature attached, of course, He's no longer here, so he would not object to this.
Chairman: That was in 1968, and it was based on the African constitutional example.

Mr. Silva: I just wanted to find out, or know, if this White Paper is a follow up, a pattern that was presented before or study before.

Chairman: Well, this one has been a study of that along with about 20 to JO others, particularly the modern ones.

We've looked-at the modern ones in the Pacific and we look at the modern ones of the Caribbean, 'particularly because of size.
’«e have, as you will appreciate problems of a small population, the size of the house and things of this nature.

Mr. Silva: Before going on to the White Paper, I just wanted to suggest or propose, that the Name'Belize' , the National Flag and the National.

Ant’ em, with the court of arms and seal of the country should be enshrined in this proposal, be no controversy with Belize, in the National Assembly.
Oh, also include it to make it more beautiful a .National bird, because that was already passed yes the National Prayer and I No, there will National JTree and a National Flower.

i I I S - 3-1 - Chairman: Do you have a bird in name?

Mr. Silva: Jabaru Stork.

Chairman: .

We'll consult the various societies about a possible one.

Mr. Silva.
Mr. Silva.

is that we should remain In other words, distinguish visitors Likewise, in that previous one, it says that provided that Belize remains a member of the Commonwealth which is the proposal now, is possible for the country to continue to participate in the United Kingdom honours if it so wishes.
If it does, no problems arises except that I assume con­ sideration will need to be given.- to the introduction of a Belizean honour system, will be coming here.... Chairman: Well, the contemplation here under the Commonwealth.

Mr. Silva: Yes.

I 'think we should have a Belizean honour system.


And, I take it likewise, that on Citizenship, the position of citizenship in the Commonwealth, is, as firstly, there is a u universal Commonwealth Citizenship of w-iich all citizens have of independent Commonwealth Countries are known as Commonwealth Citizens or British Subjects.

I propose that on independence we should have a separate Belize citizenship.
Chairman: In addition to that, we will have the right to Commonwealth citizenship once you join the Commonwealth.

Mr. Silva: We should first be Belizeans, second, any other,.

Chairman: If you notice on Citizenship here -t 11, 12, 13, and 14, on Belizean Citizenship and then 15 was Commonwealth citizenship.
Mr. Silva: We go to the White Paper now, page 2, introduction (1) Belize shall be declared a sovereign democratic I will suggest, nation of Central America to avoid -ny confusion of statehood as in the United States of America, United States of Mexico and forth.

On page 3, Sub section on the rights to life, know if it is advisable to insert in the c nstitution against abortion which is the private right to life.

I don't on law SO o a 0 I ■■ - -a 25 Chairman: Mr. .Jilva: •/hat is you?

view on that?
view on that?

That, if possible, abortion, or force abortion for that matter, in otherworls, not and abortion that is cause by medical advise or some other reason, worthwhile, but a force abortion, it says here very broadly that there is a right to life, but how far does this life define, whether the person, is a walking person or a person that is already living but not or a person that is fully out.

Chairman: the unborn?

Hr.

•-iilva: You would like a right to life extended, to Yeh.
Jn nage 4, Protection of the law (c) All Yeh.

persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law.

Cvery jerson charged with a criminal offence shall be leemed innocent, I was suggesting that every person charged and detained of for that matter, be deemed innocent, until proven guilty.

In otherwords, that the person is charged with an offence, but therefore is innocent, up to what point until proven guilty.
because, I give it as an example, some times ago, a gentleman was charged for a murder, for murdering a priest, I note that in papers on the streets, this man was accused, harrased,condemn' as the murderer of Father Sunthan, so that 1 think that something should be so there that gives that right, or that privilege or that protection to that person charged.

Then on protection of freedon of movement, (g), page 4.

On the last sentence, 'and immunity against expulsion from Jelize'.
This shall include freedom to move freely throughout Jelize, to live in any part of Jelize,.

an!

to leave Jelize and immunity against expulsion from Jelize, I would like to add except in cases of non nationals, edntravining the laws of Belize and declare a person a non grata.

As it is, you'see, it As it is, you see, a person says nobody can be expelled out of Jelize.
Page 11, 26, 'Whenever the Prime Minister is unable to perform his functions by reason of illness or absence from .Jelize, the Governor-General nay authorise any other Minister to perform the functions of the Prime Minister.'

I just add that the Deputy Prime Minister would be the I automatically, the appropriate man to act those functions, if there is such a person.

Chairman: As the constitution says, there may be one.

hr.

Jilva: Then on page 13, section 37, '.


'here it is required that the Governor-General shall act in accordance with or on the advice of any person or authority, the question of whether he has in any case done so shall not be inquired into by any court.'

I would like to just know who is.

to question the (26) Governor-General if he commits a .listake and he acts on his own mistakes, he can go pooh pooh, and takes a dash.

ft haunen with hope and falability.


:■ > Chairman: In this case, he is only there until it suits his pleasure.

I am sure fer majesty would be very displeased if he I am sure act outside the advice which he has received.

iir.

Silva: 3ut in the meantime, he would have committed the damage to the country.

In other words, .shouldn't there be something 0 whereoy the Cabinet or the Prime minister or... .
Chairman: I'm sura they woal1 go into action’, 1 but anyway, what is your proposal because the concept here, if I May just explain, if that you don't want to Ira,; the ..ueen into her own courts.

The Governor”General is the ueen an.

you don't want the ■tueen can lo no wrong, i;.s a theory on that, so you don't want that, to drag the zueen in, but on the other’ian ' you might want to drag the person in who was the founder of that act.

The Minister might be dragged in.


de night be accountable for what he’has done, the advice he has given to the Governor-General.

Or, the person, the individual, might hi.ise.lf go and, if his right is affected, complain, ' i-iy rights have been effected' and, once the court finds that a right had been affected, it has absolute powers according to our proposal.

So that there are these situations but the basis concept is that you don't drag the Governor-General into coiirt.
That's really iwhat this is saying.

'.

'here are submissions before us, already, where people have said, but we feel... before the court' and perhaps this is how you feel and please’feel free to tell us o O your views.

; , ilr.

ailva: 'vhat I mean that, in executing, for example, certain duties that you would be assigned by the Prime minister, in some cases, by ministers and others, that question of whether he's in any case, seek this authority, or rather this advice,' should be questioned.
Page 14, section 41.

The size of constituencies, 'that each elected member shall represent a constituency comprising a no less than 2,000 registers ' voters', there could be a possibility that some areas, a depressed area, night to below the 2,000 e.g.

P.G.

has been in that, I mean, pretty below the 2,000.

I mean that they will be deprived of a representative.

Chairman: let's understand what this recommendation is.
O The recommendation there is that the line should be so drawn, you know what the number of existing registered voters are, and the lines must be so drawn that they include i minimum of 2,000 voters and no more than 3,000. far.

Silva: hat is the case, for example, let's say Toledo, people keep moving, that Toledo, they combine both a population of both constituencies does not reach the 4,000.

Chairman: Please understand.

You have to erase the ( 27) boundaries.


The Contemplation is you erase all tho boundaries and er ace y u start fro i scratch.

Co that it means that, Toledo, the Toledo strict, you are talkin;-; about the administrative district, gets 1 1/2 representatives and part of 3tann Creek or a part of the Cayo district is included, that's fie job of the boundaries cotn.iittee.

That's the concept.

The sacredness of listrict boundaries was the remote, now that's a proposal.

Now, we are interested in your views.


The proposals t iat the boundaries and Elections committee would from tine to tine, depending upon the state of registration would adjust boun’.aribs or keep adjusting boundaries, if there is •- big - movement of population or there is a housing scheme or something of the sort, they would adjust so that it would stay between 2,000 and 3,000 until the membership reaches 29.
■ hen the membership reaches 29, the-’ouse of -representatives would give t ie11 new directions, This is the proposal in the paper.

how we are very interested to hear what Now we are very you think.

Mr. Silva: I think my joint has been cleared.

I thought that districts would remain as they arc, administratively, an 1 that from an within those boundaries the constituencies will be drawn.

Chairman: No, 3ir, that's not the proposal here.

lir.

Silva: I'm satisfied.


i^age 17, <31 ’No civil or criminal proceedings may be instituted against any member of either House for words spoken before, or written in a report to, the louse of or which he is a member or a committee thereof or a joint committee of both -louses, or for any matter brought by him in the form of a petition, bill, resolution, motion or otherwise.
', I would like to suggest that a further clause be inserted here, I don't know if it is in the standing orders of the Assembly whether they will be precedent over this, but taut no arrest of a member for petty offences shall be carried during a louse in session.
On .page 26 v 100 (a) have a duty to conduct themselves in such a way as or not to, then at (e) it says to allow their integrity to be called into question, this is a very loose thing because the public can condemn a minister so easily, so I think that there should be sone sort of, so to allow willfully an; conscientiously their integrity to calle !

into question or some better phrase.


In other words, the people elect their representatives and their ministers; there should be some-sort of ethics on the part of the public likewise.

Not only on the part of the elected officials.

That in other words, they are subjected to abuse in carrying their duties in quite a regular manner or with good intentions.

Chairman: The >oint is very veil noted.

'hank'you very much, Hr.

ilva.

The records will show our appreciation.

1 k' (23) Chairman: ur.


Odinga Laiimumba, where do you live?

iir.

Lammumba: George Street, Belize City.

Chairman: ■ ir.

Lammumba, 'o you represent any organization or are you appearing before us as a private citizen) iir.

Lammumba: As a private citizen.

Chairman: ■e are hanpy to hear your recommendations.

Iir.

Lammumba: This is not exactly a recommendation.

If it is possible for me to ask something here, on >ublic emergencies.
7 (a).. Chairman: Yes, you were asking about several different paragraphs; (a) (b) iir.
Lammumba: And 3 section (b) Chairman: 7 (a) as it is proposed here, is that if Selize declare war for any reason, whether that declaration brought about by an aggressive intention on Belize's part or responding to an aggressive act by another state, but once there is a declaration of war on Belize, that a state of emergency would be declared, or could maybe, firstly by tae Jovernor-ueneral acting on the advice of the minister and that would ensure for one uonth, and thereafter, the legislature may extend that for the course of wari i‘aybe, if necessary for instance, for a black-out or things like this, so that the state would live power to deal with problems of thatnature, problems with safety of the people.
i'or instance, they might want to move people out of the war zone, and that sort of thing.

^o that if this may happen and once there is a state of war then the Government would require power out of the ordinary.

So that's 7 (c>.

Mr. Lammumba: If Belize is engaged in any war, what does any war mean?

Chairman: Any war, that's what it says.

iir.

Lammumba: Including civil war?

Chairman: ’.

'Jell, if it was civil war, I'm sure this might be be considered as fatal emergency.
That would be out of the normal laws of the country.

hr.

Lammumba: Yes, the normal laws' of the country, but the situation that cause a civil war; the Governor may have the right.

So that this wording 'any war', civil war, who are the Governor and representatives who control the infrastructure?

Can you set the infrastructure against the rights of the people?

So, I would like that, something like that.

Chairman: You would like to say something about this?

lir.
lir.

Lammumba: I want to find out this 'any war' this is very important because, as I loint out this Government can be at fault.

as People are oppressed and the people decide that they have to do o o a O *5 (29) something and the Government now has that infrastructure un ler their control so they can declare a state of emergency which is not going t<.

interest other people but the interest of the renresentative of • the people.

Chairman: You're passing a lot of judgements-, i.r.
Lamurnba: iio I'm not passing a lot of .judgement.

This is history.

Chairman: I'm accepting all of that but somebody else will decide who is right and wrong'.

’hat's the first assumption on some judgement that is made by somebody.

I lon't know, who is that I somebody.

A citizen nay think that he is being oppressed.

le may A citizen nay think that he is being oppressed, not as well as he may be op messed, .50 we're /jetting into... Mr. Lammumba: Patience, physically.
Chairman: That's your point >f view.

1-lr.

Lamiaumba: Mental, psychologically... Chairman: Exactly, it might be in many ways so I understand that you have a point of view and that you are concerned about it and 1 would like you to tell us what you would like to see happen, Hi’.

Lamiaumba: diat I would like to sec happen.


Chairman: Yes, ■>ur proposals is .... Mr. Larmunba: You see, I point out this 'any war' can cause a civil war in which comes through with oppression, then the represen- tative of the people are in control of the structure.

Chairman: any they going to use it.

Lets be factual.

Let' s be honest about it and if it comes to a case of a civil war, they're not going to loo:: the constitution.

You Know that, I know that.

We are not fooling one another.

i.r.


Lamiaumba: So what I. .

.

Chairman: Exactly, you get right down to brass tacks with me and tell me what you want to say, what you have in mind.

ilr.

Lamnumba: Because, you see, the way I have it in mind, the you see, the way I see this constitution, I think this is something that is to better the people of Jelize in a way that, I'm not.
talking about adding things to the constitution of Belize, lot's discuss the constitution so that the people can have an understanding of thel- constitution and this is not the something that is being done.

People are coming in... Chairman: I must ask you to withdraw that, What is your views on the White Paper?

Mr. Lammumba: I have many views on the dhite Paper.

/hat I ask about (b)... Chairman: Yes, what would yyau like to say about, (b)?

hr.
hr.

Lamiaumba: That the action or the threat of any action by any person of such a nature, can you clarify that for me?

Chairman: There can be a number things, anything of any I I ■i I (30) nature which affects public safety or deprives the community, or a substantial proportion, thereof, of supplies or service which are essential to life.

Jr. Lammumba: Jut, can you ie more explicit, on any person.

Chairman: Any person means any person, including you and I. Cr.
Laiamumba: This paper, I think the people: should he.

more educated to ask the importance of this paper.

Chairman: point of view.

The people should be nore ^educated.- That's your <5 iir.

Lanraumba: This is our future.

Chairman: Thank you.

Chairman: may I.

'interrupt the proceedings to inform members that we have a submission Acre from miss .arcia Logario.
She has sent us four copies and I •/ill put the original into the records and Je're going to ask them to make some lore copies for us and whoever would wish to have a look at this in the meantime.

Chairman: .

.r.

Glenford Cuello, your address please, iir.

Cuello: ’1.3 .ivero street.

Chairman: Do you appear as a representative of an.

organization or a citizen?

Hr.

Cuello: As a private citizen.

o • Chairman: We are happy to hear your recommendations.

■ iir.
Cuello: Gentlemen, ray proposal relates simply to the Preamble o o and paragraph (a) of the Preamble and if I may just read shortly, what exactly I'm dealing with, I start with the Constitution of Jelize shall commence with a preamble which shall state that the people of Jelize (a) affirm that the Nation of Belize shall be founded upon principles which acknowledge the supremacy of God, faith in human rights arid fundamental freedons' and: this is my proposal, including the right .of every person to begin fully employed.
Now if 1 may just say briefly, my reason or one of my reason for this proposal is that further down this same paragraph (a) there is a phrase which says ' the dignity of the human person' and I believe that principle that every person should begin fully employed, reenforced and give complete meaning to the dignity, to the principle that the person is infact as human beings, is a O dignified person in that there is dignity in the person, I'm saying that is re-enforced, if you say that the person has a right to work and I specifically propose my proposal to intend to propose this to the Preamble and not the fundamental rights and freedom section, These are principles.
Chairman: i’hank you .

'r.

Cuello.

-'e are very pleased that you have taken the time out.

'..'hat •'<> you think of: the bhite Paper?

hr.

Cuello: I think It's workable.

•'I •g J ■ Chairman: Chairnan: i.r.

Magana: Chairman: citizen?

Mr. Magana: Chairman: Mr. iia.jana: (31) Thank you very much.

nr.

..r turn .

<a ;ana, .elcome, your a i.

'.ress please?

No.

8, jecond iow, 3t.

Martin de Porres.

**n<< you \ >pear on jefialf.

of an organization or as a On behalf of myself.

ur.
ur.

Magana, please tell us what your views are.

No.

41 where it says the louse of representatives ray proposal here is that this thin,; shou.l ’ not include be registered voters, right, it should be done by a census because this reason for this is that, suppose people do not register, so that means that they are not represented?

So, I thin this sheul ‘ bo • •'one by sone sort not represented?

So, e of census.

Another thing.... Chairman: Are you proposing special census for this purpose?
or the ten year census?

Mr. Magana: Yes, the ten year census, because I think that's what, is done in other countries.

Chairman: In joine countries.

Mr. Magana: .

The U.S.A. iocs that.

Chairman: I'm not sure if the USA does thaton the U. S. constitutions, t-iey have different systems.

There are ; some countries what they do is, they fix the amount of the nationalist, They don't put it on a formula this flexible like the one we suggest.

one Mr. Magana: .lay I ask the reason for using the formula?
for registration?

Chairman: .

'hat we're using the registration in the formula or rather well, it's a point of view into the :oint of view that a person who is interested’in the lease, and is concerned about how he is govern and wants to participate in how he is govern, the least c «r he does is register, in.

those woo do not, or even incapable of or an .

doing so, or totally unconcerned.

That is the joint of view that That ii the led to that sort of thing.
Mr. Magana: Yes, because there are several reasons for people being unconcerned.

I thought that by a census everybody should... Chairman: We understand your point of view, ■t'e are not challenging you, please.

Mr. Magana: Another thing, this protection from freedon of movement, .Section 4 (g), I think this should bo more specific, stating, probably to non nationals.

Chairman: You mean that that should apply to non- nationals.

That is the terra about expulsion.

That there should be expel on the right?


Mr. Magana: Yes.

Then page 6, No.

(r.i) protection from discrimi­ nation, I was wondering what you mean by national hatred.

I think I would like to see that more specific.

I couldn't come up with nothing.

(32) Chairman: All right, what we have in mind there is that there is somebody who- is out taere, recommending1 hatred to Jelize, this can hapien and it has happened before’.

iir.
iir.

Magana: You see, because it airs, talks about religious hatred and to what ioint would, you clasifie!

this hatred?

I know it could be done by tradition but think it should be inorc specific.

Chairman: You would like to see the whole section elaborated?

Hr.
Hr.

Magana: Yeh, Page ••», section (d) Protection from human 0 treatment, one thing that struck me, I /as wondering why you all was put in this slavery and the slave trade in all their forms shall be published, because we don't have any slave trade again so why... e Chairman: .Caere are icopie- w i > would challenge that you know.

There are people who waul ’ say that there are terms of slavery.
There are women in this country, who cone into this country, who are illegal, their passports ire taken away, they are locked in bedrooms all day and have to work all night, some people call some that slavery, .’hen we say si ivery, we mean in all forms.

nr.

Magana, Chank you, Chat's ail 1 hive.

■' Chairman, Thank you very much, ilr.

<ia;;ana, for coming before us.

o O 6 * CHAIRMAN: MR. INISS: CHAIRMAN: MR. INISS: Clli.

IRMAN: MR. INISS: (33) First of all, your name, Sir?

, .

.
, .

.

Percival Iniss Your address?

77 George.

Street And you are speaking on your own behalf?

As a citizen: : First of an I would like to say that Thank you very much.

Yes?

But on page 14, paragraph 43, it talks about the I support the White Paper.

CHAIRMAN: MR INISS: qualification for members'.ip of the National Assembly .
'’.nd it says that any persons shall be qualified to be elected ns a member of the House of Representative or to be °ppointod to the Senate, if he is a Belizean citizen, eighteen years old, and if he has lived in Belize for nt least one year, now what if a men who has lived in Belize for one yepr doesn't know what is happening in Belize, and I believe that this statement should at least say two ye rs.

CHAIRMAN: MR. INISS: CHAIRMAN: You think two would be enough.
It is not enough but two ye^rs would be alright.

Thank you very much Mr. Iniss, for coming before us.

As a citizen.

I hove come up to support the White Your name please and your address.

Peter Thomas, 6 St. Martin de Porres .

You appear as a. citizen or a representative of an CHaIRMaN: MR. THOMAS; CHAIRMAN: organization?
MR. THOMAS: Paper, and like my forefathers, the baymen, who fought under duress, the time has come for Brlizee.n to unify themselves behind the Government and people of Belize to make this constitution work.

There is no reason, whatsoever, why Belize cannot go .ahead because of good leadership under the People's United Party, and I dedicate myself and my family to pursue this course.

CHAIRMAN: clear statement and I wish to say thank you Thank you very, very much,, Mr.

Thomas., for appearing before us.


It was a very t CHAIRMAN: MRS. KROHN Mrs. Lite Krohn of 6 16th Street, King's Park, Anybody else?

I What does Mrs. Krohn has.

to tell us?

On Page 5, section (i) and it's a little, as is appear as a citizen.

CHAIRMAN: MRS. KROHN: necessary to defence public safety, public, order.
I believe this little caveat a.pears in a lot of the other, I just want this to be clearly defined, what is necessary to defence, public safety, public order <54> There is one other question, the constitutional There is a possibility and I think that this will regulating telephonies, does that mean tapping and one suggestion wireless broadcast to television, or televisions, is there a possibility for another radio station instead of just having a one radio station?
CHAIRMAN: reinforce the possibility but this is the idea, please Mrs. Krohh, let us record, I prefer to record not that you question me, but that you would like this.

MRS. KROHN: monarchy, is there any reason why another type of constitution would not be given out, e.g.

why go for a republican type of constitution.


He consider that, Hovern’.ent considered that, several CIiaIRMAN: forms, but we selected a constitutional monarchy.to prove, and I don't if they will appeal to you, one is; we Relieve, respecting the attitude of some parts of our population and secondly, the particular circumstances of Belize.

Belize has a conscious recommendation but that does not prevent yours, we have had recommendations .to go republic.
That does not prevent you from s lying to us that HRS.

KitOHN: CihilKMAN: ion tha we should put in provisions so that the day we want to change , we can change.

MRS. KttOHN: CHAIRMAN: before us.

i.-ell, other countries have gone republic, having... we have on hand, just for your information, a suggest­ I think that's all.

■‘■'hank you.

Thank you very, ve.y much Mrs. Krohn, for coming I don't know if that appeals to you.

o Q May I ask you your nr,me and address for the record.
Alexandra M. Cove of 4 Pickstock °treet And you are appearing as a citizen?

I am presently appearing as a private citizen.

Ms. '■'oye, whet do you have to tell us?

In varying capacities, I appear as private citizen CHAIRMAN: M3.

COYE CHAIRMAN: M3.

COYE: CHAIRMAN: M3.

COYE: and also as Chief Coordinator of the Belize Cultural Arts.
I would like to make a submission for an extension on the time of consultation, and secondly I would like to know whether consultation with ^elizeans residing taken by the Committee1, CHAIRMAN: MS COYE: CHaIRMAN : Me.

COYE: No.

.

You're anticipating.... No, we're not.

I will submit my request that consultation with brood for whatever reasons has been under­ Firstly ; .

!

I (35-).
!

I (35-).

• therefore is it based on the Westminster It has nothing to do with composition ' f members of on draft const'tution for 1968 fricnn model and that Nothing at oil .

■ There is a question, I noted that a previous, I Belizeans living abro: d be made and I ■ use as my basis of reference the fact that enjoying up to consult utiohs for other territories-, ■ e.g., the Caribbean, consult.
".tion with residents,’ ith citizens of those territories, resident abroad, i.-us been made,M am in personal knowledge with, first of all', thirdly i would like to enquire of the ommittee, concerning a matter that co fuses me somewhat.

±Jxactly what is the definition of Joint Committee, Joint Select Committee-'' CtlalRMAN: it it means that it comprises members from both mouses of the National Assembly.

MS. COYb: the Government party °nd the Opposition, the term joint?
CHaIkMaN: MS. COYE: couldn't hear well, has commented and I think it said that it was based on the this draft constitution has been bused on or comprise of 20 to 30 other coustitutions.

model?

ChAlRi-uiN; fid.

COYL: .inan model, take into consideration to take a constitution,' the republican model, iLJtorically of Mexico, U.tJ.n.
and I make this recommend'’tion because h, it has shown since the ^ritish colonies started on the long road to independence since 1948 with India, that the parliamentary system, based on the Westminster Model has seen to give’rise to, that, beginning with Ghana and at varying times, dictatorship, i don't think it can be used as a ending up with the President.

personal qualitative statement but one that can be derived on objective analysis.
un that basis, -1 would'like to recommend' that the co >mittee take into consi i.erction the possibility of a republican model, where the judiciary will be separate from the legislative, where prescriptions for the time that the lender of the nation may serve in order to revent the development of a powered of the leadership that \ou, he 11 c ;■ co'.

'.titvtion permit one term of office, U. i ' t’ o terms of office of a certain amount of time.
I : ,at present working a critique for my representation and I prescribe -fterwords.

Please wait, just to clarify a few points.

First CHAIRMAN: of all you asked for an extension of time, what do you have in mind, what sort of time do you have in mind?

It is based on We .tminster model.

I would like to submit, therefore, that the committee I J I > .
(56) well, my reading rate is approximately a 750... MS. COYE: I'm giving it step by step, between 700 to 1,200 words per minute, however, it is legal language and I know that on a previous occasion I have been accused of not understanding the legal language, because of that, therefore, 1 feel that it is necessary, in that context, to ■'llocate as much time and nig much.care as possible to the interpretation.
I have come -cross instances where the use of the X future tense and the use of the conditional tense, seem to contradict one another.

1 a- not sure whether that is a fault of that, or whether it is a linguistic position or whether it is a simple legalistic terminology with no sinister indie tion or otherwise.

No.;.

2. in asking for more time, because 1 am proposing an alternative model, 1 therefore feel that it is i- cumbent on myself to read and read carefully the documents of.
freedom which constitutes the freedom of other nations and that is why I'm presently reading the Mexican constitution, the new cnstitution for Honduras and also the document for rance as the document for France as they have e.ierged, and there­ fore I am requesting approximately the possibility of five to six months and I think that would be possible, given that we are envision­ ing ^independence within a year, to bring to an end the long struggle of JO odd years.

00 this is what I would propose.


CHAIRMAN: you had the knowledge of what other countries do, could you help us with this because I would imagine that for us this would take quite an exercise.

M3.

COYE: prepared to do it?

CIxAIRMaN: Consultation with -Belizeans abroad; you told us that No.

Just by telling us how they went about doing You mean help you >y being I should imagine so.

0 '..ell, I know in the case,.

I cannot recall at the this.

M3.


COYh: moment, the name of one of the territories, of the Lesser Antilles but while I was at University a friend of mine, who was 'oing his doctoral thesis, was asked to supervise consultations on the ■ eastern seaboard of the U.S.A. ■ nd Canada, and his work was, the time allocated was about a year.
,J-'bot is what he had and I know that there are, well reports claim th?t there are ;bout 50,000 of our people abroad and some people feel if they don't have a right, they have Hod and because of choice.

I personally feel that it is not for us to decidd why they have left because most of them have not up their "elizean citizenship, so I feel that in the they shouxu consulted as individual: not as organ itwd bodies because we will ik.™ Q0 vray of ’-sessing the structure and the a 0 o & (-57) .
objectives of organized bodies of Belizeans abroad.

They could be politically vague and otherwise.

So I feel that in the issue they should be consulted as individuals, not as organized bodies because people have no way of assessing the structure and the objective of Jelizeans abroad.

They could be practically naive and otherwise.


That doesn't mean that a confederal Very shortly ou .-sked us to consider the Mexican That a confederal constitution, if you mean we haven't We 'xample of that means that the vhAIrdiAN: ■and the United ■ot-ates constitution.

So, that's exactly.... MISS COYE: So, No, i just wonder whether like the Mexican constitu­ CiUilkl'iaN: No, tion you are recommending to us a one p rty issue.
rilJS COY..-; Not necessarily, 1 nm just saying that we are to conclude of this constitution obviously if we could draw out of this the best and taken into considerations.

J‘or example the “merican constitution has been trying to thresh in it certain objectives.

have not necessarily achieved that, vision is not there; you.

know, constitution .... CHAIRMAN: beer contemplating that we should be going into a confederal constitution?
Not necessarily; MISS COYE: says Belize shall be declared a America there is a derivntory, the possibility of a federated arrange­ ment in the terminology at the state.
One would have a good consti­ tution Sovereign democratic nation state of Ger-tral ■“meric5' because if the whole process of the Independence movement has been known now and which started with the ±Lenais Government of England and to break away of Britain the control of the Roman Catholic church was in reality a political r-volution and the beginning of the emergence of the' political concept of the nation, so within that content this very document -t the moment in those words seem to me to point the possibility of a federate state.
1 am not suggesting that... sovereign democratic State of Central this word or this statement it CHAIRMAN: MI .33 COYh: CHAIRMAN: happened to those countries which have- followed t’e parliamentary '■ere you not a No.

Then you did not give us a warning of what has system of government.

MISS COYh: CIiAlitMAN: whether in your experience - ou have examined what has happened to the Republics of Latin -“merica who has .followed the American You would like me to enlarge on that'-'' No.
what I would like to ask is a question constitution?

i 6 « * ■ (-38)- ■urope during They ju~.t have b en consenting on man participation The Republics of L-tin America and the United states The republics form of Govern- •^rench revolu' ion and also out HI33 COYE: have not really followed their form, ment enlarge out of the experience of of the experience of the political philosophies of the 19th century.
on Government of the laws that you can't have an uneducated man participating in democratically se erely because it doesn't work.

The Latin American model has each enlarged so it wasn't to their own practical of Government really.

CiutlidlAN: constitution under «omos?.

and put it against the American one?

1x133 CUYES No Mr. Courtenay, the poinL that I made a while ago is that we have an ideal and a real vi ion.
it is not a question of whether we have achieved the ideal, the question is that we would like to enshrine in our constitution the ideal.

I think that everybody who has come to posit their ideal while they don't necessarily exist nor can we assume that they are workable.

, /or example the British does not carry a written constitution.

I am still right or am, I wrong?

CHAIRMAN: wot really.

How long have you read the Nicaragua HON.

.MUSA: MIJm COYE: Well the British constitution.


.. Is there a written constitution?

Not in the new statement- No.

Unired Kingdom does not have a written consti­ 1413J COYE: tution, its Government is on the basis of the consensus of opinion worked out over two (2 J thousand years.

I would not answer that.

CHAIRMAN: very very written.

But they don't have a constitution.

MIJ3 COYE: forgive me, for ive me.


In terms of wh't it is, I CIiAIRMaN: can bring a text book or widely known as the telegram council in British constitution is They have had... writing.

MILS COYE: has been.

CIiaIRMaN: It's not that recording that points that practically It's question of 'onion, if they file documents, or no proof.

MISS- COYE: document been left.

the cultural experience of the British people.

I agree.
I agree.

My point is that there is not a certified iiy point is that .lodelhas been worked.5out of : o o O o Q CHAIRMAN: MISS COYE: will be an ex-^ritish colonist.

xieally!

We may be a British colonist and on Independence we But there’s no reason for us to .

(39) assume that the British experience is suitable really.to our experience or to the identification with our needs and our realities.

■Joes the ■Jet me rephrase myself Uovernor-Ge.eeral replace the present role of Is that wrong?
her representative, very Not intended.

It is really intended to be, while ago, I heard s far as I am concerned we are a new v’orld people and there is nothing wrong with us attempting to utilize the experiences of the new world, eliminating tie necessities, utilising the possibilities and see where we can go from there.

i'Lis is what I am talking about.


I feel that the position of Governor-General cannot become as that of the ^ueen, the ‘ueen's position is heri^atory, the Governor­ general's position is not a heridatory one, it is appointed.
CHAIRMAN: fll.j.j COYE: that they were making the po ition to somebody that whom I think we possibly c.'uldn't hear in the case of a misdemeanour on -the part of the Governor-General :hnt when he -ct in the capacity of the ween; how could he be tried in his own court of Law’*1 OnAIRMnN: different.

HISS COYx.

: the Governor?

No.

CHAliiMalsl: It's a completely different role.

1'he Governor- MISS COYE: General is a. completely different role from the present 'Governor.
CHAIRMAN: MISS COYn: CHAIRMAN: which the Queen has a representative in our country.

MISS COYE: monarchial system, the Monarch is a herediatary ruler in the case of the Queen and she doesn't rule she merely reigns.

MISS COYE: which have experience in slavery, which have gone through.all the travail of liberation could not follow for example, must need be involved in a political context based on the Monarchial Principle which it seems to me even the English themselves have questioned.
At present the Canadian ant Great Britain *re in controversy concerning the inclusion of a bill of rights into the Canadian Constitution, and the.issue is.that this has to be done in e gland by a Parliament and some people in Canada I think but it should Completely different role.

..ell then why does he need to exist.


Because we have proposed a monarchial system in Are you then saying that citizens of an ex-colony Okay, so if it is a monarchial system, and a • be done in Canada could probably emerge, to be a major controversy, to the point where the Canadian High Commissioner has accused the British Government of tapping its trans-Atlantic c. Ils.
It o (>j) that the P rlinmentary model or the wectmin ter It seems to me iO'lel has worked far better in places such .-.s C.-'-.’.nJ .Australia simply by virtue o' '.be ct th t .

major .ortion o<‘ tl.cir ■■opula- tion .-re of British origin. '

ct 111 t .

CHAIRMAN: unrelated to Belize.

I would say that looking <t the African experience is one.

You would.

That's what I say, if for that I am‘submitting a But you have ethnic, sharp ethnic problems.
Problems of sharp ethnic problems no - I wouldn't MISS COYE: CHAIRMAN: say that, we might have ethnic difference, but not sharp problems.

Not sharp problems - well I think in the' case of one MISS COYE: person opinion I guess not wnt, but I will still like to submit for the consideration of the republican CHAIRMAN MISS COYE: consideration of the Kepublicon model and I give my reason for the rejection of another Government being in the Parliament.
I am at least being very careful Mr. Courtenay - I said taking into consi­ deration for example such constitution as the Mexican constitution in that case.

CHAIRMAN: MISS COYE: MR. MUSA: witness first mentioned that one reason for going nt this time from the Monarchy system is a matter of public policy.

MISS COYE: No.

I didn't hear Thank you.

'Thank you ver - much I think you heard Mr.

The previous Courtenay.

O MR. MUSA: Oh,, you didn't hear.


Bec'ause of the different arrangement that are practical with the British Bearing that in mind have you not accept the Monarchy as a temporary constitution, once you know it is a Well my position is this, are we republic.

then saying that we MISS COYL: That is now on will shortly be rewriting the constitution again, moncrchial premise and that we should the monarchial system, on a shortly be rewriting it we will then anticipate.

I am asking you.
I am asking you.

I think the contemplation will be you rewrite the Mr." Musa: executive on the legislature on my premise but that the fundamenta.l rights will be the Independence of the Judiciary may not mean anything.

But if you move into a republican or practical countries, all you need to change is the structure of the executive in the.legislature.

Not really, there are other things that you need tc Miss Coye: be reconsidered too.
I would say that the very thought that want you to utilizing a premise of operation it's an idealogy petition ' - the right and it must me-n t?
t thr are act'ils ■ ithin th-t o a o a o - 41 - which are particular and specific to the particular ideological framework, I would say and is wrong, therefore we would need to accept, wouldn't we how our people would react then they would need to be involved in decision making as to whether or we would have a monarchial system on a temporary basis because of defence guarantee.
We will then need strict limits on those defence gurantees right, for 5 years, for 10 years for 15 years, or what have you then having got that guarantee we will then have to face - then on that basis we will move into a republican system at this point in time or another alternative which will have to place to the people, do you want one immediately, so it is three proposition you will be made.
One for a permanent monarchial system, two for a permanent republican system or three for a temporary monarchial system with a time limit, since you say that the basis for the request of a monorchial system is on one of the basis, is on the basis of defence arrangement then definite time will have to be set on the different arrangements, don’t you think?

I see your point.

Any other questions One little question I would like to ask.
Mr. Musa : Miss Coye: Mr. Courtenay: like you to comment on this quotation "The consulate conceive for one people one generation believe that they can legislate.

I would I believe you and that is why in my proposition I Miss Coye: am preparing to include an article where the constitution should be reviewed within certain periods of time as a, generational review obviously to be enshrined on the anniversary of Independence.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Courtenay: Is there anybody else.


Since there is nobody else, I will declare this sitting of the Joint Select Committee to be closed, and thank all of you to be present and attendance.

Thank you.

Eighth Meeting of the Joint Select Committee appointed to examine, consider and report on the White Paper - Proposed Terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize, held in Belize City on Wednesday, 25 February 1981.

Honourable C.L.B.
Honourable C.L.B.

Rogers in the Chair 9:00 a.m. VERBATIM REPORT CHAIRMAN: The Eighth Meeting of the Joint Select Committee is s called to order.

We would like to remind the people present that this Committee derived its authority from a Resolution passed by both the House of Representatives and the Senate.

That The Committee is governed by the Standing Resolution empowers us to hold hearings to hear views of citizens on the White Paper.
Orders of the House, around, we would like to remind them that any publication of the hearings, before the Committee reports to the National Assembly, would subject them to a charge of contempt of the National and if there are any journalists or reporters Assembly.

The first person on the list is - Mr Rupert Cain 33A Castle Street (citizen) CHAIRMAN: Mr Cain: CHAIRMAN: What are your views on the White Paper, Mr Cain?

My views, Sir?

I endorse the White Paper.


Is there anything you would like to add to that?

Mr Cain: No, sir.

Members of the Committee, Mr Cain has given us his CHAIRMAN: statement that he endorses the White Paper.

Is there any question you would like to put to Mr Cain?

If not, then, Mr Cain, it remains for me to thank you on behalf of the Committee for appearing before us and giving us a very clear statement, If not, Thank you very much.
Mr C. Turner 1122 Card's Alley (citizen) CHAIRMAN: Wbat are your views on the White.Paper, Mr Turner?

Mr Turner: I haven't been studying it thoroughly, but I have more or less a slight understanding of what is contained in the White Paper.

i ] 2 Now, in my view,the laws of this country would be practically the same as originally.
The laws of the present moment were good for peaceful and good citizens, not the citizens that exist today; for example, you in your home, where you figure is your castle and you are’supposed to be happy, your radio to educate yourself and hear the you hear stoning from outside your house; i you.

I think the law should be much more much freedom and most people abuse it.
listening to news from abroad, children are annoying stiffer; there is too CHAIRMAN: We have heard a view that there should be a period in which the existing laws would all be reviewed.

Mr Turner: I think there should be openings for amendment, as we go along.

And I wish to recommend amendments as you go along, that you see fit for discipline, because you can't get along without discipline in any part of the world; and we badly need that here.
CHAIRMAN: So you recommend that the existing laws be reviewed.

Mr Turner: Now we are going into Independence and we must secure a proper economy.

The Government is too careless in shipping out lumber.

The Government should have a qualified man who knows the measurement, because it is a very technical thing, you.

know.

Not anyone can measure lumber and know how the footage and so on.

Now, there is only one honest man and that's God.


I get one hundred thousand feet of mahogany that I am going to ship out; so like Belize Estate crowd and them, you think I am going to tell you I shipped one hundred thousand feet, you take my word.

That is the system in the Government today, and it's a bad one.

The Government is losing revenue and I am certain of that, in those lines, in the export of timber.

CHAIRMAN: The export of timber.


o o c a Mr Turner: Yes, to measure, you have to have a Government man employed steadily to take care of that.

Belize.

Estate reports to the Government that I am going to ship out lumber say, today; alright, you send your man there, say a week or so in advance, to measure the amount; and appoint a spot where you the Government can take care of it until it leaves this country.

That is the proper system, I recommend.

If you don't do that, you'll be losing revenue because,!
know, nobody is honest to tell you, well, that he is shipping one.

hundred thousand feet and that's what ttie real amount is.

f '3 J -d- The next thing, in regards to protecting our border - fishing.

I heard many times people come from the Republic to go to these hunting cayes and you can't get-them off; they say they are not leaving.

We want stiffer laws in those lines.

There have to be stiffer laws:, too, to protect these men who come and fish in our waters.. Chairman: Probably patrolling.
Mr. Turner: Yes, Yes.

And whosoever violate; that lawj you take away their catch and their boats, all their values; not as how it is done now.

The last one I heard about, a big fishing boat came here and they only took away their catch and the people gone off with their boat.

People •- will always come and take advantage because the law is not stiff enough.

Chairman: The vessels should be seized.

Mr. Turner: Yes, everything, all values and, maybe, put them in jail, if possible.

You punish them.
You punish them.

Chairman: A stiff penalty.

Mr. Turner: Yes, because people will always intrude with this existing law.

« w Chairman: Are there any questions for Mr. Turner?

If not, Mr. Turner I would like to.thank you on behalf of the Committee for appearing here and giving us your views, thank you very much.
Mr. N. Pollard Belize City Mr. Pollard: I would like to call the Committee's attention to Page 5(1) - protection of freedom of expression - with regard to the sentence which reads "This includes the right to communicate ideas, freedom of the press and mass media of communication", I would, simply, like to ask that there be included a provision for more easy access to the one Government radio station in the country, Radio Belize.

Chairman: Is that your submission?


This is really in support, these are facts in support of my Pollard: argument.

Chairman: other Government property should be made available to any citizen May I ask a question?

Do you propose, Mr. Pollard, that any on an impartial basis?
-4- Pollard: At the present time I haven't thought about it, Sir, but I mentioned Radio Belize merely in connection with what I just read, mass media of communication this includes the right, it says "Protection of freedom of expression - everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression.
This includes the right to communicate ideas, freedom of the press and mass media of communication and certainly radio is at the forefront of the mass media of communication but there is no other radio available to the citizens of this country except Radio Belize that is why I mentioned that in particular.

Courtenay: But that is so?

No other radio is available?

Pollard: No other radio in this country, I am talking about radio station, Sir.
Courtenay: You wouldn’t propose that the Gazette should be made free to the public.

Pollard: Well, I didn't say Courtenay: Or the Nov/ Belize.

Pollard: I do not mean free in the sense of not having to pay, for example, for announcements, obviously there should be some kind of payment for announcements, but I am talking about political or social views should be made available, Radio Belize should be.made available for political and social views of people other than the governing party.
Courtenay: The governing party or the Government?

Pollard: ■The Government and the governing party.

Courtenay: The governing party has access to the radio?

O $ c» Pollard: Certainly, Sir.

There was an all day broadcast on Monday about the convention of one political party.

Chairman: That was coverage.

Pollard: That's what I mean, coverage, The other political parties are not thus covered, Sir.

Chairman: Well, if they don't make news in their opinion, but they cover any events.
I've heard several events covered by other parties.

Your own o Save Belize Movement which was new, brand new, nobody knew what it was, was put on the radio.

Pollard: But merely as an announcement, Sir.

Chairman: Mr. Pollard, my question is, I see what you are getting at, is it that all media, knowing your fairness, all newspapers should carry all views too.

Is that what you're saying?

Pollard: Certainly, except, that in the case of newspapers, we cannot compel private owners to do that.
■c Chairman: If we had a private radio station you wouldn't be able .. Mr. Pollard: I couldn't compel them, no, but in the cage of a Government thing, which is financed by all the .... people.

J o Chairman: I understand, Mr. Pollard, it's only to understand your proposal.. Pollard: Page 17, Sir, No.

58 (b).

Chairman: I think you made some proposals on this before.

Pollard: Yes, we discussed it and I said I would like to reconsider this section.
I have suggested that this should be totally dropped and your reply to that’was suppose you want to increase the rights of people, this would be the section to do it under.
'Jell, may I point out, Sir, that I do not, any longer,•suggest that it be dropped, but I would like to propose that there should be a provision added that, in no case, may any amendment.so made encroach upon or abolish existing rights of the citizen; and may I add to this, Sir, from reading the document, all the provisions concerned with human rights, I get the impression that there's something lacking; perhaps, with all good will, it was the intention to include all human rights, but I get the impression that it has not been properly provided for, I would respectfully ^submit, suggest; and I take your public speech as the jumping off point of this.
You said that the Constitution will provide for all of the guarantees provided by the United States or something to that effect.

Chairman: I said that the aim of our Constitution would be the same ideas.

We would like liberty to pursue .... Pollard: Certainly, thanks for the correction, Thanks for the proper way of putting it.

8 Chairman: It might not be -.-ord for word, but the ideas.
6 Pollard: Well, in that connection, Sir, I have the impression that the Well, Constitution, as it stands, does not provide fully for those rights.

May I, respectfully, suggest that the Committee go over the amendment to the United States Constitution called the Bill of Rights and more importantly the United Nations Charter of Human Rights and that nothing included in those two documents be left out of our Constitution.
Chairman: Both the United States Constitution and the United Nations o Charter of Human Rights.

Pollard: That nothing included in those documents be left out of our Constitution.

Courtenay: Where they conflict what do we do?

Pollard: That the better provision be the one kept; the one adopted by Belize.

I go, Sir, to Page 4 (j) Page 5 (j) Protection of Freedom of Assembly and Association particularly with association and the rights of trade unions.
I believe that there should be a provision to the effect that the public officers, not by me necessarily, unions of public servants should have the right to strike.

This principle is well and truly enshrined in the United Kingdom for example and all the Commonwealth.
Civil Servants do have the right to strike and the United States as well, but there is a sort of inference here to the effect it says "the right of peaceful assembly shall be recognized and everyone shall have the right to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

This shall not invalidate a law reasonably required for defence, public safety, morality, etc.
to protect the freedom of others, to restrict members of the Public Services that is the phrase I don't like - to restrict members of the Public Services so that my proviso provides for freedom of strike by Public Services.

There already exist in the Trade Union Ordinance certain restrictions on strikes, I don't quarrel with that at all.
For example, in the public health services, electrical supplies strikes are illegal; they are essential services; they must go to arbi­ tration and then after arbitration fails .... Chairman: You know, vze have a situation where members of the Concilatory Organization, the services rather, the Labour Department joined the same union and they are the people who are to make peace between employer and employees.

What are your views?

Is that a restriction?


If those people r O I ■i o 7 can form their own unions and not be a part of any existing unions, when they might have to make peace between another union and the employer.

Pollard: That's very difficult to say, on the spur of the moment.

I would like to reserve my ... * c> Chairman: You're a bright man and if you don't want to answer me o I have never found you lost for words.
Pollard: With regard to the matter on Page 12 Section 33 - the appointment of the Belize Advisory Council, I have already suggested that the Leader of the Opposition should also be consulted in addition to the Prime Minister, but I now, Sir, ask the question; it's a question really for clarification - The Governor-General shall be the Chairman of the Council and in his absence the most senior member present shall preside.

How will that be provided for?

Who is the most senior?


they having all been appointed presumably at the same time.

Chairman: We had a question before from one of the people who appeared before the Committee - Mr. Courtenay answered it very clearly.

Would you give Mr. Pollard the benefit of this clarification?

Mr. Courtenay?

Mr. Courtenay: If you will notice the provisions for tenure of office, Q it's stated that, it gives a maximum, period rather than saying that a ■Sf person is appointed for a specific period.
So the maximum is ten years.

The idea and the concept is.

that one would want some degree of continuity in 1 the operation of such a Council, therefore on the first appointment, the appointments would be staggered somebody might be appointed for a year, somebody for two, somebody for three, somebody for four, so that the periods of tenure would come to an end at different times, so there would be a revolving situation and, in time, a member would become a senior member by length of service.
Pollard: And I suppose in the first year of tenure the person nominated for I the longest period would be the senior person.

Courtenay: The Governor-General would deal with that.

Pollard: Page 21 - 83.

I already pointed out to the Committee that I believe that the Director of Public Prosecutions should be appointed by the Governor-General, not on the advice of the Prime Minister, but on the advice of the Belize Advisory Council.
May I point out that I am supported in my idea by the following Section 84 which states that in the dismissal of such a person the Governor-General would take advice from the Belize < © I 8 ,,i ril Advisory Council so that the idea is already there and agreed to, so that I would suggest that the same consultation would be in 83 that it is not the Prime Minister, but the Belize Advisory Council.
Chairman: Well, 84 was put there and I thought that, when you looked at it, your fe rs would be groundless because in the nomination you had a fear that if the Prime Minister nominated the man he had some hold over him.

Pollard: Yes.

Chairman: He has none, because he can’t remove the man.

The appointment was provided for one way and the removal was provided for in another way, but your submission now is that this supports your earlier statement.

Pollard: Certainly Chairman: Thank you.


Pollard: Page 26 - 100 (a) It is provided here, Sir, for the Code of Conduct by the various people in the Government including, well it says the National Assembly and more particularly it would be presumed Ministers of the Government, since they are the people with the executive powers of the Government (a) to place themselves in positions in which they have or could have a conflict of interest, it states before that of course - . ''
have a duty to conduct themselves in such a way as not to place themselves in positions in which they have or.could have a conflict or interest.

My submission, Sir, without going into details is that at the present time, there are Ministers already functioning who have conflict of interest.

Chairman: Well they would no longer.

Pollard: Well I wanted that to be noted, Sir.


Chairman: We don't know, I don't know what you arc saying, and I can’t take your allegations, but if it is so, it will no longer be done because you have something provided for that here.
Pollard: Very good, thank you, I go now to Page 19 - 70,"the life of the Very good, thank you, National Assembly shall continue for five years from the date of the first sitting of both Houses after any dissolution and 'shall then stand dissolved", bearing in mind that this; is in the constitution, this clause will become effective on the date of the new Constitution and therefore I assume that this is intended to mean five years from the date of the coming into effect of the new Constitution, but bearing in mind that the a O 9 present Assembly is already nearly two years old so I believe that there should be a specific provision here to provide that whatever time served by the present Assembly, should be discounted from that five year period.
Page 9 - 18.

I respectfully submit that the Cabinet should not consist of more than forty percent of the legislature or the House of than forty percent of the legislature Representatives.

The reason for that, Sir, I think is quite clear, that The reason for that, Sir, the Cabinet should not over power the House, as at the present time.

I over power the House, e> think you have twelve members out of 18 at the present time.
Then I go, Sir, to, this will not refer to any specific section, it's an entirely new matter; I'm suggesting that there should be a provision in the new Constitution for a guarantee of Church/State Education without undue control such as has been recently .... Chairman: You want that into the Constitution?

Pollard: Yes, Sir, well not in my words just the idea.

Chairman: .

Just new provision in the Constitution for a guarantee of Church/State Education.
Mr. Pollard: Yes, Sir, I was saying, I'm supporting my statement, my proviso such as has been recently proposed by the Minister, or Ministry of Education tc the National Education Council whereby the O Ministry would have control of who was hired or fired in the high schools.

I am against that.

I think that the high schools particularly should retain control over their own staff with Government merely assisting.

I would want to see this in the Constitution.


Zkt the present time I think, correct me if I'm w^ong., that very recently the Government began paying part of the salary of the high school teachers, 50 percent of it, I'm not sure ... Chairman: But you aren't confining this provision to high schools.

■o Pollard: No Sir, primary schools-as well, but since the high schools are,a new element, I bring this up in a particular way.
Nothing should be done, I think, by the state to control the Church Educatiqn; and that could be very vital, for example, in the appointment of teachers.

If you get, for example, a ncn-christian teacher who is corrupting the minds of children.

I am giving you an extreme example, it could happen.

If you get a person who would corrupt the minds of children, an atheistic teacher.

The Ministry of Education should not be able to.say you can't dismiss that teacher.
I'm giving you a concrete case, because they are paying the salary.

I ■ / 10 Hon.

F. Hunter: If you [;et a teacher in school who is teaching subver­ sion against the Government, could the school prevent the State from firing that teacher?

Pollard: I think it's impossible to provide for impossible.

Hunter: Exactly.

everything in law.

’ / r j r< !


It's Pollard: And therefore that is a situation that would land itself to discussion and I'm sure that school management is a that were .... Chairman: Are you sure?

reasonable thing and if O Pollard: Sure, they should be reasonable, however, may I make a distinction here, Sir.

May I point out a distinction in answer to your question, Sir.

There are two situations that such a teacher could be involved in.
Her personal human rights, as a citizen, outside of the classroom should a not be interfered with, but teaching the children, I agree with you that subversion should be prohibited.

Chairman: You are in consistent.

An atheistic teacher, you said, the o Ministry should not stop - prevent from being fired, but now when it comes to another question of the mind you are saying also ... Pollard: Definitely.

Hunter: The school should not prevent the State from firing the subvertive teacher, right?
Pollard: I am saying that I don't know if you can provide for that in the law.

Hon.

G. Ramos: I want to get your point straight.

Under the Church/State Education system, you want the State to have no control, but you want the church to have the control.

Pollard: No, I am not saying no control.

I am saying not to have control over the hiring and firing of teachers in a general way.
I don't want to include all of the ideas because there are many ideas ; for example, there is the idea of teaching religion.

o 0 e a S 1 11 Ramos: I was thinking that if it is a Church/State then both the Church and the State would have some sort of control.

Pollard: I wouldn't say control by the State, I would say .

In other words, the last say should be with the Church.

Chairman: How would you determine if a man is atheistic if he did not admit that he was atheistic?
Pollard: It could come out in what they tell the children and the children go back home' arid tell their parents what teachers are saying.

Chairman: And that would be the evidence?

Pollard: Well part of the evidence.

Chairman: Anything else, Mr. Pollard?

Pollard: I would like to see a provision in the Constitution providing that no British or other foreign troops stationed in Belize, except for external defence, or for assisting in national emergencies caused by natural calamities, such as hurricanes.
The obvious import of this, I think, is, I give the situation in so many countries today for there are struggles for national liberation, as in El Salvador or Nicaragua.

What I am saying is that outsiders should not be able to help the rebels .... ■ not to be able to overthrow a tyranical regime for example.

They should not be allowed to do that.

No foreign troops should be used against the citizens of their own country.
There should be a provision in the new Constitution for the appointment of an ombudsman.

I recall that the Premier in his Budget Speech of 1979 promised that there would have been an ombudsman, but it is now February 1981.

May I suggest that this be in the Constitution and my suggestion is that he should be appointed again by the Governor- General in consultation with the Belize Advisory Council.
Courtenay: Usually the ombudsman's system, as I know them, is usually a servant of the House, the House of Representatives, he reports to the House not to the Governor.

In other words it is the House supervising the executive.

Now if you get the executive appointing him, you are P Ji I beginning to defeat the concept.
Pollard: I take what you say about the precedent or what is the present practice, but in my own limited mind, I cannot see a man functioning fairly and independehtly if he is subject to a majority in a House of Representatives.

12 i Chairman: That's not what the mertber said to you.
He said he reports to the House; you see the ombudsman is not a prosecutor, the ombudsman system that we know of, but he makes reports on situations that he thinks are dangerous and he thinks the House should act on it or that somebody's right has been affected.

I was trying to say to you a while aB°S it's not who appoint the man that matters, independence of the body, the functions and how can he be removed.
It's like the appointment of judges, President Carter or whoever is the President, appoint them subject to ratification and after they arc appointed they can't remove them, are that's the independence of the matter.

'.Je must trust people, we are '.Je must trust people, dealing with people.

& Pollard: Yes, well anyhow the principle is that there should be independence.

Chairman: Your new provision is for the appointment of an ombudsman in the Constitution with an independent status.
Pollard: My fourth suggestion is that there should be a Public Service Appeal Board, I don't know how that is taken care of at the present time.

Chairman: You read in the White Paper that now they would appeal to the Advisory Council, that is in here at No.

91.

The proposal in the a White Paper appeals against any act of the Public Service Commission c- G> 0 or the Governor-General in relation to the Public Services shall lie to the • • I Belize Advisory Council.

Yes, Mr. Pollard.

.


Pollard: That is good enough for me, Sir.

Chairman: Anything else, Mr. Pollard?

Pollard: Finally, Sir, I submit that the new Constitution, the Independence Constitution is going to be the most vital document in the life and history of Belize and I believe that two weeks of hearings have been very inadequate and insufficient.

I believe that such a document deserves a much longer period for consultation with the people and I would respectfully request that the time be extended.
Chairman: Any questions of Mr. Pollard: Courtenay: Just, before you leave, I would like to draiir to your attention for peace of mind, Mr. Pollard, the provisions of paragraph 40 on page 13; I just ask you to take note of it, not to comment on it, hut just to note on the life of the National Assembly.

i li e <9 13 - Pollard: Thank you for that Sir.

In the United States there is a provision that every citizen should bear arms.

Chairman: No.
Chairman: No.

Sir, I don't believe that every citizen should boar every arms, I don't know how it is spelt and I don't know what the intention of that provision is.

Pollard: Everybody is entitled to have a i;un, it is to defend the Constitution of the Country.

Rogers: But Mr. Pollard lest we don't understand this one, well I back the point which was on the point you made to us about the present National Assembly.
You understand what this is saying: Pollard: Yes Sir, this provides for what I recommend, the answer to my question.

Rogers: Yes, so the recommendation is no longer valid.

Pollard: That is righto Rogers: './ell Gentlemen, I think it is my duty to thank you for the contribution you made before this Committee.

Pollard: Thank you very much.

Rogers: The next name is the Belize City Council.


The Mayor Reigio Montejo (on behalf of the Belize City Council) Rogers: Give us your views concerning the White Paper?
Montejo: Well it can be para-phrased in this way taking into account this historic time in our country, and taking advantage of this historic time to participate and support the White Paper, a document that would protect the lives and well-being of all Belizeans and these within our frontiers and supporting the full and immediate freedom of our country, 5 The Belize City Council passed unanimously a Resolution which Belize.
reads: Rogers: Give us the date of the Resolution Montejo: The 24th February 14 Whereas the members of the Belize City Council have carefully studied the Jhite Paper issued by the Government of Belize on the proposed terms of the Constitution for the Independent Belize, Are convinced that the White Paper embodies recognition of Basic Human Rights and Fundamental Freedom inherent in a God fearing society, are assured that the will of the people shall formed the basis of Government in the Democratic .
Society at both the National and Local Levels.

We resolve that the Belize City Council unanimously supports the Government's White Paper and express confidence in the Government to obtain for Belize a Constitution for a Sovereign and Independent Belize with all its territory in tact.

0 Rogers: Thank you Mr. Mayor.

Gentlemen you have heard the statement of the Mayor who is representing the Belize City Council.
I would like to convey to your Council the gratitude of this Committee for appearing before it and presenting this Resolution passed.

I tender it as part of the records.

Montejo: Quite Mr. Chairman.

Thanks.

Rogers: The next is the Reverend S. 0 Pott,District Supervisor of the Church of the Nazerene and he appears on behalf of the Church of the Nazerene.

Rogers: Paper?

Rev.


Pott would you (jive us your views concerning the White ■a 0 Pott: First of all, Government for the fine presentation, we have been going through it, but on behalf of our organization, I'd like to commend our unfortunately we haven't been able to cover all the important areas and we are still working on this.

We believe that our Government has been quite clear in giving every organization an opportunity to express their views and make recommendations for the same.
On Page 3, the first paragraph expresses the importance of this proposed Constitution and I would just read from there: The Constitution shall be declared the supreme law of Belize.

Any law inconsistent therewith shall be declared void to the extent of the inconsistency.
Gentlemen, we have been wrestling with the proposed Constitution and as an organization we have our men carried through the country, the governing body to our church would be the District Advisory Board made up of nationals and we find it a little bit difficult to gather all our men.
It's been only two weeks... Rogers: You still have time to write in to the Clerk of the National Assembly; any of your views; it will take a long time for the Committee to write its report, we'll be collecting the evidence and trying to get head start to write the report.

a 4 1 ri A L < Pott: 1 see.

15 Rogers: It takes a lot of hours and a lot of staff to compile a report such as this and they will be doing this for some time and you still have time.

.
.

Pott: Very well, so the deadline is not now.. Rogers: No, you still have time to send in your submission Pott: Excellent, Sir.

Just before I leave, I'd like to ask a question on two areas that would help us in making some recommendations, that is on Page 10 Paragraph 21, the last sentence reads: "In the exercise of his functions the Attorney-General shall not be subject to the direction or control of any person or authority".
Can we have little more clarification on that so that we can.. Rogers: A clarification is necessary because it was put in to make the Attorney General independent, but it has agitated some people to, wonder if the Attorney General is above the law.

This is not so.

The Attorney General, as the first part reads if the Chief, the Principal Legal Adviser to the Government of Belize.
The Government needs facts, it needs somebody professional with knowledge of the Law; and in his functions he should not be told how they want the advice, that is what this is saying.

Vie want you to give an advice based on the Law.

And since he is a professional, it was put that way, maybe an unfortunate way ,of putting it, but it is saying that when the Attorney General is giving advice to the Government that's all his function is, and to administer legal affairs in the country.
He should not be pressured in any form or any way only to give us his advice.

■ His advice must be based on his knowledge in the law and, in that sense, he is an independent member of the Cabinet.

Pott: All right.

'.Jell that explains Page 13; Paragraph 37, where it is required that the Governor-General shall act in accordance with or on the advice of any person er authority the question of whether he has in any case done so shall not be enquired into by any court tJould that be something similar?
Ij 1 Rogers: This is slightly different.

This is a style, of writing Constitutions in the Parliamentary System called the 1'onarchial System.

Here the Governor-General represents the Queen.

It's a difficult thing in It's saying we should take the Queen to court because you know how that system is in the Parliamentary System.
Jell we are going to adopt the 16 Parliamentary System, then the Queen' s representative, you cannot take the Queen's Representative to court, That is one of the difficulties, because all of the other Constitutions have it that way.

Pott: And the last one Gentlemen would be on Page 5(i) where it reads: "Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression.

This includes the right to communicate ideas, freedom of the press and mass medium of communication except as is necessary for defence and so on..
I am just wondering if when we.

say mass medium of communication we should o spell out Mass Media and also whether we should spell out Radio and Television, because we are moving to that era you know, just spell it out.

Rogers: It's down there if you go further Reverend.

Pott: Yes, and my last question, I thought I had come to the last, but there is this last one: we do appreciate Gentlemen, the kind support the Government has given to the Churches very much.
I believe, Mr. Pollard presented something about the schodl/govefnment relationships, primary schools, high schools this is excellent; I think this is commendable.
However, I would like to ask if there is anything here whereby the churches that are considered in our country, as non­ profit organization, and most of the churches in the country and I speak for most of the Churches, in Belize, not only the Nazerene Chruch; we receive some help from abroad including the social work, O 0 Christian Social Council, and thousands of dollars are poured in to help the Institutions here in our country and certainly we.
need it, and then, on the other hand the Government comes in and help.
However, as we assume more national responsibility even, at the level of the churches, and, by the way, you might be interested to know, that our church coincides with government in speaking of Independence, we are really moving towards that ourselves by 1982 February; a year fron now, we should be assuming total responsibility of the whole operations of organizations here in Belize, kith this in mind, I wonder if there is any provisions made whereby the churches can still enjoy the privileges that we are enjoying now, which is really commendable from our Government.
The fact that the Government exempts organizations from paying property taxes on schools, or churches or anything that is related to the church, and also the fact that, so far, we also enjoy the privilege of getting for example vehicles, paying just I believe 55 per cent duty on vehicles, as a non-profit organization, realizing that these <P vehicles do help the churches, do help the schools and I atn sure that our Government is aware that as a non-profit organization, we are a servants of the pepple; we work with the people; they callus any hour < « I ♦ 17 of the night and we really lo not have any charges; sometime we make long long trips whether for the school or for the church or whatever days and really the organization.must absorb these expenses.
And I am wondering whether there can be some provisions where these privileges can still be considered by our proposed Constitution; and, as I said before, many many churches are beginning to launch totally on their own and probably their help, that would come from any sources, outside of Belize would be, in many ways, limited and whether something like this can be considered for the future and I would like to ask this Honourable group here if they would give it their serious consideration.
Rogers: Reverend we would like you if you have tlie opportunity yet to submit your proposals and that could be one of your proposals.

This Committee would certainly accept it.

Thanks.

o Pott: Thanks so much.

Rogers: Reverend Pott this Committee would like to thank you for appearing before it.

Pott: Thank you, Sir.

Chairman: I have a problem, differenciating between a genuine church and a cult.
-,/e have received a presentation from no other person, but a Sister .. do you have any ideas how to avoid ... like Jim Jones.. Pott: I believe that really before any group comes into the country it would really be good to find out about their background whether it is a recognised organization, large enough, wherever it comes from, whether Britain or England or wherever; I believe that a safeguard there would be in order; Jim Jones was just a small little group that started somewhere there, probably they didn't have a set Constitution of the Church by which to operate.
I believe that’ it would be in order if our Government were to have some safeguards whereby they can look into this group wanting to come into Belize and its not in here and whether it is a recognised organization or whether it is just a Jim Jones situation see.
But, I believe, it is very much in order and along with that I think it is important to realize that in allowing exemptions or these privileges whether these churches are indeed a I help in the promotion of the well being of the country, the people, whether schools or whatever we have exempt that some people might want to take advantage of this.
'Jhen in reality probably they are using it for their own selfish ends; we have to make a distinction 18 as to whether this group is actually serving our people, our schools, our churches, and those that are, I would say it’s commendable for for them; we need to screen-out those that would just like to use this means for their own selfish ends, and this is incomplete......... Rogers: The records would show that the Committee thank you for appearing before us.
Cyril Davis represent Democratic Independent Union 9 Corner Chapel Lane and South Street Rogers: Davis: Mr. Davis, please give us your views about the Jhito Paper?

Yes Sir, I would like tc begin by saying some very important quotations, which is in keeping with our views on the bhite Paper.

Rogers: So long as it has to deal with the White Paper; please' proceed Sir.

Davis: Very good, Sir.


For the good andbad fortune of natiohs; an three factors is constitution, the way the constitution is made to work and the respect is inspires.

Two, Englishmenare very fund of dur Constitution to serve it is bestowed upon us by providence.

Article 1 be amended accordingly; and to read thus: "On the appointed day Belize shall become an independent and democratic nation within the Commonwealth with all its democratic principles of the Commonwealth b of Nations.
(2) That Belize should not surrender any of its territory before or after Independence which presently stands at over 8,670 square miles, or thereabout.

Article 2 should be amended by the addition of the following sentence after"inconsistency"in the last line - neither shall the Constitution be drafted to be derogatory to or bring good laws into disrepute which were in existence before Independence.

Article 3.
Article 3.

This Article should be amended to include all thirty articles of the declaration of Human Rights, as was adopted on 10 December 1948 by the General Assembly of United Nations.

So as to do away with any ambigiousness apparent in the present document.

Article 4 should likewise be amended by the inclusion of this statement after "prescribed" in the second line: "as spelled out in the declaration 0 o of Human Rights, shall be enshrined in the Constitution of an Independent Belize".
Article 1(a) is arguable, since the right to life should mean exactly that same for the giver of life who i o should take it; however, if a person professes to be the giver of life, and thus for life.

takes life.of another, then that person should be incarcerated Article 4 (b) is anticipating that some public disturbances !
• IS - shall be forthcoming after Independence which could be sparked off by Government if Government makes opressive laws so they are saying that if you allow ub the Government to do as we please with the people, then your freedom is secure.

Therefore we are suggesting, an amendment as follows: Except by due process of law or, in cases of an emergency which was not brought about by an opreasiv.e act or acts of.

Government against the people, a person shall not be deprived of his liberty, article 4 (c).
Should be amended with a full stop after appeal, however, no person shall be held on any charge without trial for more that 6 months, at the expiration of this period, a person should .

, be dismissed by the authorities and charged touching the natter be ~ in question for which was the cause of such an arrest should be unqualifiedly dropped.

article 4; add the following words 'should or during an emergency such as matters as hurricane, fire or flood and so on1, After detention.
article 4 (c): we believe that the words 'arbitrary search' should be resolutely applied in all cases and should not allow even the Government to enter one's property under the pretence of one of the conditions set out in this article.

Article 4 (g) should also be amended with the addition after Belize, the following sentence: 'however undesirable aliens, murderers and those such person shall not be immune from expulsion from this country'.
Article 4 (h) should be amended be the deletion of the words in brackets' because we are a Christian people and believe that that sentence is prejudicial to good Christians,and could be a breathing ground for Communism'.

4(i) we feel very.strongly about this section and recommended - its absolute deletion and substitution of article 19 of the Declaration of lunan .eights, instead.

Article 4 (j) should also be deleted and replaced by Article 20 of the ; declaration of Human Hights which has no.
provision for its general application.

Article 4 (h) Should also.be deleted and be replaced by with article 12 of the declaration of Human Hights which is absolute aqd ;does not have a proviso to afford any Government, regardless, -t'o declare that, because of defence or public safety, to interfere with people's personal matters.

article 6 seems to be saying that a separate constitution with emergency provisions shall be in existence, which shall supercede this constitution.
If this is so, wo are recommending that this constitution being the supreme law of the.land, that all laws should be made in accordance and not in violation of this Constitution.

This Constitution then, should set .out the conditions to handle emergency and not any other law passed in violation of the constitution by the National Assembly or .any other body including the Courts whose duty is to uphold the Constitution of this country.
article 7, this article seems abiguous, therefore it is not straight forward; we are 11 20 recommending that it be re-drafted and re-submitted to the public for scrutiny and comments* article 8 (a) (b), in our opinion, it's a clear violation of trade union rights.and should be amended to exclude trade unions 6rb.be made more specific as to its true, as;against its hidden purpose.

We also believe that the Constitution should be as unambiguous as possible.

Article 9, what is the meaning of article ' ' 9?


Again this is ambiguous, and it should be made more specific; we ; believe that we are not to be anticipating what an article of the constitution is intending to say.

article 12, in our opinion, can be very dangerous., since there are hundreds of foreigners in our country particularly, from the neighbouring republics.
We are, therefore, re­ commending that all foreigners who ere in this Jountry should live in this country legal for five years after Independence or ten years before Independence, before they are granted citizenship.

Article 13, this article is appropriate for Belizeans, but we believe that foreigners should be allowed to accept,reject the grievances from their own free will on a part and therefore if they are qualified, then they should make necessary applications to become citizen.
Ue question this; because the word in this clause is shall....

Article 14.

This article is a violation of Article 13 of the Declaration of Hunan lights and should be deleted and replaced by the said article 13 of the Declaration of Hunan Kights.
article 15: this article will only be meaningful if Belize becomes an Independent Nation within the Commonwealth, which we hope shall be the position or condition which Belize Government will take Belize into Independence, as we had „ mentioned earlier, and that it was not indicated in Article 1, that Belize should be an Independent Nation within the Commonwealth, but instead a Sovereign Democratic State of Central America in the Caribbean Region, after all Grenada, Cuba, Guyana are Sovereign and Democratic in their own way, but not with the kind of democracy we would like for Belize" after Independence.
Article 16, The Governor-General should be appointed by the Queen from amongst qualified men, from amongst members of the Commonwealth of Nations after consultation with the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition, and the appointee shall hold office at the queen's pleasure and successor to the throne of England.
The Governor- General shall be responsible to the wueen anti fhe successor of the Crown of England for the administrative, affairs of Belize and not to any Minister of Belize, since he will ,be .subjected to the making of political decisions as against administrative, decisions.

Je feel that this proposal is a safeguard against political victimization arid should be included in the constitution.

Article 17: .
Je strongly recommend in this article, as above, and wherever in any other article of the draft constitution in reference made about trie functions of the Governor-General that the 0 a o o o 21 Governor-General should act only on the advise of the' queen, after due consultation with the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition; absolutely not on the advise of any other Minister, That is to say that, the Prime Minister, should be the link between the Ministers and the Governor-General*, This, to our minds, shall prevent duplicating of administrative orders or decisions.
We believe that this article should be amended after "Governor-General" aS follows!

"The Governor-General should keep the Crown informed 0 of all decisions of the Cabinet".

article 19 - 20: We would like to add after the word "Authority" the word "save that the Attorney- General shall be bound by the Constitution.and the laws of Belize for his impartial and the proper function of his duties and shall be subject to the rule of lav; as every other citizen in' Belize".
Article' 22: We recommend that the following be added after "portfolio" "in accordance with any laws or recommendations that is in force and touching the matter in question".

Article 23: .

We recommend that the tenure of office of the Premier should be for two periods of four years, only, if his party should be successful for a second time at the polls.
Jowever, should he loose his seat at an election, he shall not be allowed to be the Premier if he should regain his seat at a subsequent election, U e are recommending that this paragraph precede article 23 accordingly and the one beginning with "if" bo numbered (b).

z»rticle 25: l/e believe that this Article is a penalty to the other Ministers if they are removed from their seats due to no fault of their own and as a result of unwarranted actions on the part of the Premier.
The Ministers should be free to decide whether or not to (;o with the Prime Minister.

Therefore, we recommend that this article be amended accordingly.

Article 29: The word "Deputy Premier" should be added after "absence" and the word any other Minister that he appoints" should be deleted.

In other words Deputy Premier shall preside.


Article 30: This Article should be amended to read: "That the Leader of the Opposition in the ilouse shall be the person chosen by the said party whom the Governor-General shall recognize as such and appoints such a person accordingly.
article 32: We note that in this article the saving of money is an important factor, however, we, must state that if such a condition is created by the constitution more money will be lost than ■saved through the inability of one Permanent Secretary being put in charge of two or more departments.
It seems to.us that at present 1 the Permanent Secretaries are incapable of attending efficiently to one department therefore it does not seem feasible to allocate more than one department to a Permanent Secretary at a tine, therefore, we recommend that this article be amended accordingly in accordance with 22 our comments and for good administration of and with Government This one deals with the advisory Council.

It is not clear from this article what will be the uuties of an advisory Council.
If an advisory Council.

the Cabinet is recognized as a Supreme policy making body, so what or will the Advisory Council advice on?

However, if there is going to be one, -we ' recommend that the Opposition be equally represented.
Article 35: This is dealt with in our submission in article 17. article 36: We note that this article is in absolute contradiction to article 19, or vice Versa, therefore,it should be amended to determine what are their true intentions and which one shall remain in the constitution.
Article 37: de recommend that this article is a violation of natural justice and the basic human rights, since it prohibits an aggreived person, to appeal against the decision of the Governor-General and should be amended accordingly; and no one should be placed above the law even if we are to have democracy in Belize.

Aemember natural justice is the corner stone of any constitution.

This is very important for any Government to remember.
-e recompend that the Speaker of the douse should be elected from amongst elected members of the House and not appointed from outside.

Article 40: We recommend that an internationally supervised general elections be held in Belize before Independence.

article 41: We recommend that before this section can be acceptable, that the representation of people's ordinance be amended to include the Opposition within the Areas and Boundaries Commission.
Therefore we should not proceed into Independence with this partiality existing in that ordinance; If equal rights shall be observed in Belize after Independence.

Article 44: We recommend that the words "however, a member of the Police Force or Civil Servant shall upon a request made to their respective head of departments for political leave can campaign and run for an election to serve in the House of Aeprebentative" be added in at the end of this Article.
Article 47: The words "for after due consultation with the Leader of the Opposition" should bo added after the word "shall" in the second line.

article 53: w'e- recommend that any amendment to the constitution should only be done after the citizens of Belize are consulted and be allowed to.approve or ■ disapprove of such amendments by a referendum and not by two thirds majority of the House of Assembly of Belize and not as stated in article 58.
Article 60: We recommend that no appointed Minister be allowed to address any of the 0 o O Houses of Parliament.

Furthermore the appointments of Ministers should be discouraged.

article 61: We recommend an amendment after O - 23 - "otherwise" as follows: "However this immunity from prosecution doe?
not protect a Minister from crimin'1 prosecution, but in the case of civil prosecution, no action shall be entertained by any court forty days before the sitting of Parliament and forty days after the sitting of Rirliament.
Article 6$; We recommend that this article should be amended to be more flexible and thereby reducing some of the powers of the Cabinet as to whether or not, a money bill should be amended, let go the Cabinet and deprive the Opposition of their rights to made amendments O or for that matter back-benches of Government.
Article 69: We recommend that the words "at least four times a year" be substituted for "at once a year" in the fourth line and "four months fl instead of six months" be substituted in the sixth line.
Article 71: We recommend that once the House is dissolved by the Governor-General, it should stand dissolved and, if any emergency should arise, that it is the Governor-General's responsibility to deal with the matter under the laws as he sees fit and the power to do and to solicit the aid of Her Majesty's government, depending on the gravity of the emergency.
Article 75s We recommend that Her Majesty the Queen be substituted in line 8 for "Prime Minister" as since we strongly oppose to politicians having anything to do with the courts.

Article 76 - 84: Here again we recommend that wherever, in these articles, the word "Prime Minister" appear, it should be deleted and replaced by "Her Majesty, the Queen of England".

Article 92: We recommend that all these matters should be deleted to an independent Civil Service Board and should never ever be in the .
hands of any politician since there will not be any security of tenure for civil servants whp are not supporters of the Party in Government and shall be a breeding ground inefficiency through political appoint­ ments.

Here then is our further recommendation to this committee!

1.

That Her Majesty, the Queen of England, or His Majesty the King and the posterity should be the titular head of an independent Belize as is the position in Canada.

, , 2.
, , 2.

That all judges and magistrates must.be appointed by the Queen after due consultation with other senior members of the bar of Belize, pa+.i nnal g of Belize or other Caribbean countries or Bhgland and that they should be independent of all politicians whereby they can perform their duties without fear or favour.

J.
J.

That the office of the Premier should be held for a period of two terms of four years only, and that the Government should be of the people, for the people and by the people, so as to protect Belizeans from tyranny and effects of the exercise of absolute power by any individual.

I* I 0 o 4.

That a bill of rights to safeguard the rights of citizens of this country be included in the constitution1.

5.
5.

That Trade Union rights, in general, shall not be interfered with, directly or indirectly, by politicians and that the Government must establish an industrial dispute court, staffed by independent judges for settling any unduly protracted trade dispute which cannot be settled by the Labour Department or by other means.

6.

That there should be no oppressive legislation against our people, for example, ordinances 14 of 196?
entitled "Control of such as, Public Meetings and Public Processions 1967" which states that any meeting that is, any gathering of five or more persons convened or held, or any purpose which include any political purpose is illegal n fiKo-k vW-tcvinXng, pcxn-iooioii from -the Coninissi oner of Police and Section 19(i)(a) and (b) of the proposed Criminal Code which reads; 19(i) every person directly or indirectly instigate, command, councils, procures, solicit, or in any way, any manner purposely ease, facilitate, encourage, or promotes the commission of any crime whether by his acts, presence or otherwise or (b) docs not act for the purpose of aiding, facilitating, encouraging or promoting the commission of a crime of any other person, whether known or unknown certain or uncertain shall be guilty of abetting the crime and of abetting the other person in respect of that crime.
Taking together, these laws, severely inhibit the rights of Belizean to freedom of speech in discussing any issue and the rights to associate freely and contravenes Article 19 to 21 of the declaration of human rights.

7.

That communism should be made illegal in all parts of Belize, since that system of Government suppresses human rights, and is abhorrent to the people of Belize.

8.
8.

That freedom of speech and the right to protect or demonstrate against bad and racist government should be included and that by the voice of the people such government should resign.

9.

That Belize should not surrender any portion of its territory before or after independence.

10.

That the free movement of Belizeans within Belize and in and out of Belize to any foreign friendly countries should not be inpeded in any way.

11.
11.

That churches and other social organizations should be allowed to function unmolested.

12. on 13.

14.

That education should be made compulsory and no children should be seen the streets during school hours.

That more- than one political party should be allowed to function.
That all the international labour conventions should be ratified by the Government; before independence and be included in the Constitution so that after independence the Gov nt will be bound by them as is the present __ 9» fi - 25 - case whereby the British Government has ratified the convention for Belize.

15.
15.

That the people or radio station be made accessible to all political parties and all organisations without censoring what they wish to the public, so that the people should have the right to hear both sides and to decide for themselves as they are free, as they are perfectly able to do with ninety-five percent literacy in our country.

« 16.

That there should be an election before independence and that there­ after an election every four years, in order to avoid one party rule.

17.
17.

That there should be a referendum on the constitution for an indepen­ e dent Belize and that the constitution should provide for a referendum on any other vital issue that could affect the lives of Belizeans in the future.

18.

That there should be a five day work week established throughout this country.

19.

Police brutality should be absolutely discouraged and safeguard to this effect should be written into the constitution.

20.
20.

The rights of our citizens to work without being politically victimized for not supporting the party in Government, should bo enshrined in the consti tution.

21.

That Belize should endeavour to be friendly with all democratic countries to enhance its trade and:'.develop its tourist industry on the pattern of tourist industry in Barbados.

22.

The the Government should allow and do all in its powers to foster private industry.

25.
25.

That Guatemala should be allowed to pass her goods through Belize by way of an international highway, built by the United Kingdom before independence and be made to pay rates similar to those paid by Mexico and also pay a toll for the use of such a highway.

24« That the principle that all men are created equal, in dignity and inrights, should be recognized by the constitution.

Mr. Chairman, at this stage, I have a declaration of human rights, with your permission I would like to read it, sir.
CHAIRMAN: Unless you are submitting the document, I think there are other members who want to talk before the committee too.

Is k 9 DAVIS: This won't be long.

Declaration of Human Rights which was established on the 10th November.

CHAIRMAN: We are familiar with the documents.

As a matter of fact, we have it here and you can tender it as part of your submission.

In fact, I would like a copy of all that you had to say.

You need not give it today.

Any questions?


- 26 - RAMOS: The recommendations that you just road, are they the recom­ mendations of the Executive body of the Demo ratio Independent Union?

Would you care to name the officers who were present when these recom­ mendations were made?

DaVIS; We had one Mr. Wilfred Cooper who works at the Public Works 9 We Mr. Slusher who works at the Public Works Department likewise.. CHAIRMAN; These are members of your executive?

DAVIS: Yes.

Mr.
DAVIS: Yes.

Mr.

Gentle from the Water and Sewerage Authority, Theofolus, Ryan Santos from the Prosser Fertilizer Company and we .also add that at this very said meeting we had executive members from the factory unions also, but thc-y are prepared to come before you' themselves.

So, I can assure this committee that this recommendation was not arbitra­ rily done.

CHAIRMAN: Before you go, Mr. Davis, I would like to make one thing clear.
The chair directs that the remarks made earlier before the submission on the White Paper, be struck from the records.

Then the committee would like to thank you for your contribution to the hearing.

Thank you very much.

HON.

P. GOLDSON and MR. CARLTON FAIRWEATHER CHAIRMAN; Good morning, Mr. Goldson.

GOLDSON: Good morning.

CHAIRMAN; Party?

And you are appearing on behalf of the United Democratic GOLDSON: Yes, Sir.

Mr. Chairman, I will ask Mr. Fairweather to read our submission.
FAIRWEATHER: The United Democratic Party memorandum to Joint Select Committee of the House of Representatives and the Senate on the proposed Independent Constitution.

To the Hon.

Members of the Joint Select Committee.

The United Democratic Party presents here with its views and 0 o o amendments to the Government White Paper on the proposed Independent I Consti tutions.
NATIONAL SYMBOLS Although the question of National Symbols is not referred to in the White Paper, it is noted that the Select Committee has been soliciting views on this question from certain persons appearing before the Committee.

o - 27 - It seems likely therefore that the Committee intends to submit recommendations on the Nation'1 Symbols in its report to the National Assembly.
The United Democratic Party therefore submits a proposal for a National Flag, reservin' its position on Symbols for the time being.

The United Democratic Party proposes that the Na/ional Flag shall be made up as follows: One half Red and one half BLUE with the National Coat of Arms on WHITE circle in the center.

(See attached).
(See attached).

NATIONAL SYMBOLS COMM:.SION other matters of National e The United Democratic P. rty further proposes that a N tional Symbols commission should be appointed with the following terms of reference.
To seek a concensus of the BMizean poo le on tho question of the National Anthem, Flag, Motto, Pr yer, Bird, Fish, Anim.1, Insect, Tree, Flower and such other symbols as orc most likely to unify and inspire the people and around which ■■.11 cry r illy with honour and national pride and to recommend such symbols for adoption by the National Assembly.

It is proposed that the National Symbols Commission shall be com­ prised as follows: 1.

2.

Two members from each party in the House of Representatives.
One member from each party in the Senate.

One member representing each registered Trade Union.

One member representing the Chamber of Commerce.

One member representing the Belize Library Association.

One member representing the Belize Bar Association.

One member representing the Belize City Council.and one member representing each Town Board.

One member representing the Belize Arts Company.

Hon.

P.S.W.

Goldson, Deputy Lender, United Democratic Party.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.


Proposed Amendments to the White Paper on the Constitution Sec.

4 (1) add the following (1) Freedom of Expression shall include the right of responsible groups, organiz ations and individuals to equal opportunity to respond to criticism and comments affecting them on the broadcasting and TV media and the right of citizens generally to hear divergent views on public issued on the media.
(k) Protection of the right to privacy shall include protection against wire tapping and other forms of eavesdropping of private telephone conversation, except with lawful order of the court.

o 28 (n) PROTECTION OF THE RIGHT TO PRIVATE PROPERTY shall include the right of a property-owner to challenge before a court or tribunal the alleged public purpose for which his property if it is used for a private rather than public purpose.
He shall have a right of action for damages where it is established that fire acquisition of his property was malicious and not for a genuine'public purpose.

Section 4 (0): Provided th.t where in this section any exception is So, this goes Is this a new .

Very well, noted.

one wo were asking Tris goes with the It's a new subsection.

It is a new subsection.

made to a right by a law such law shall be just and reasonable in the circumstances.
CHAIRMAN: MR. FAIRWEATHER: CHAIRMAN: with the first one you made, whether it was (i)?

MR.

FATRHRAIHRR.

: Yes.

ADDENDUM to Section 4(i): This right to freedom of expression shall include the right of citizens to operate private newspapers, magazines, radio stations and TV stations subject only to regulations necessary for orderly operation.

Sec.

14: A Belizean citizen should lose- his citizenship by renoun- ciation and by no other cause.
He should retain his citizenship unless he specifically indicates that he no longer wants such citizen­ ship.

Sec.

18: Not more than one half less two of the total membership of the House of Representatives shall belong to the Cabinet at any one time.

Section 23: The Speaker shall summon a meeting of the House of Representatives within twelve days after notice of a motion of No Confidence in the Prime Minister has been received by the Clerk of the National Assembly.
Section 30 (a): The Governor-General, if so advised by the Leader of the Opposition shall appoint r\ p- rson who is a member of the National Assembly to be Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who shall act as Leader of the Opposition during any prolonged illness or absence from Belize of the Leader of tire Opposition.

Section 33: Change the name Bilize Advisory Council to the Belize Council of State.
Section 33: The Belize Council of State shall be comprised of three categories of membership as follows: (a) Any person'who since tire advent of self government of Belize has held and vacated office of Premier, Deputy Premier, Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of the Cabinet, Leader - 29 - of the Opposition, Speaker and Pr sident.
(b) Any Belizean citizen who formerly held the office ax’ Chief Justice, Puisne Judge, Judge of the Com*h nf Appeal, Registrar General and any person who Senior Bttorne.y-at Irw with the status of Senior C^--—jC-L- Ten otho’- - -4Ut3Ons> not below the- ng.

of thirty, to be appointed by ‘—■c Governor-General, six on.

the advice of the Premier and four on the advice of the Lender of the Opposition.
Section 33 (a): The Governor-General shall be chairman of the Council and three members from each category shall constitute a quorum for a general meeting.

Section 35 (b): The members under categories (a) and (b) shall hold office for a-ife so long ns they retain the qualifications which entitled them to membersnip of the council.

The members in the category (c) shall vacate office when the National Assembly for the first time following a General Election.
Section 33 (c): The Governor'nay appoint committees of the Council comprised of not less than three nor more than five persons and may delegate to such committee the duty to investigate, report and r<-commend to the Council any matter which may be referred to them by the Governor-General or the Council.
Section 35 (d): The Governor-General shall appoint a Committee of convenes ■< five members, at least one of whom shall be drawn from each category, The to advise him on the exercise of the Prerogative of Mercy.

Governor-General shall be chairman of the committee.

Section 35 (e): There shall be n Judicial committee of the Council of State comprised of the Counsellors of State under Category (b) and any other counsellor who is an attorney-nt-law qualified to practise lav; in Belize.
Section 41: Each member of the House shouldrcprcsent not less than 1,400 nor more than 2,500 voters.

These provisions under Section 41 should take effect before Independence through fresh General Elections.
Section 44 should be amended to rend: to be elected a member of the House of Representatives or to be appointed to the Senate if he is a. Belizean citizen 18 years old unless he is a Bclzcan born, has lived in Belize'for or over and, at least one year before the date of his nomination for election and (unless incapacitated by blindness) he is .able to speak, read and write the English Language.
Also to be mn< nded to provide' that a person will also be disqualified from holding office in the National Assembly if he is convicted of -ny offence relating to A person shall be qualified - 30 - elections FOR SUCH PERIOD ;.3 THE HR/ ;U1Y PRESCRIBE Section 50: There shall be nine members of the Senate appointed by the Governor-General, five on the -dvice of the Loader of the party securing the largest number of vot.,s in the general' election of members of the house of Representatives and four on the .advice of the Leader of the Party which h,_,s sectired the- second large't number of votes in the elections.
Provided that if the party..which received the second largest number of votes, receives twenty percent or less of the votes cast, that party shall then b.„ allotted two seats only and the remaining seven scats shall be allotted to the P- rty securing the majority of votes.

Section 58: A vote of three-quarters of the membership of each House of the National Assembly shall be required for amendment of any provisions of the constitution.
Amendment of entrenched clauses should in addition require a referen­ dum.

There should also be a provision which shall not be subject to amendment under any circumstances to that effect - No amendment shall be made to this constitution to provide that Belize shall be a one-party state.

The right to form and join political parties shall be entrenched in this constitution as a human right.
Section 59: The Standing Orders shall among other matters make „ provision for the following: (a) motions nt the time of presentation; (b) progress report as a sessional paper on all bills, motions and other matters pending before his committee together with reasons explaining delays of more than one month in reporting back any such bills motions or other matters to the House; (c) shall be chairman of the Public accounts Committee which shall con­ tain a majority of members from the Opposition Party.
That the Loader of the Opposition or some one appointed by him Requiring the Charimnn of each committee to submit a monthly the right of a member to move motions and to speak on such That when a Minister introduces a bill for first reading he (d) shall at the same time lay a copy of such bill on the table.

That no bill shall be passed through all its stages on the day except with the unanimous consent of all members present (e) same and voting.
Section 73: (a) A by-election to fill any vacancy in the Hquse of Representatives created by the death, resignation or otherwise of a member shall be held within six weeks of such vacancy occuring.

Provided that no by-election shall be held if such vacancy occurs (a) o o 1 D o o - 31 - less than three months before the life of the National Assembly is due to expire by operation of law.
Section 77 and 80: The question of the removal of a Judge shall be Judicial Committee of the Council of referred by Her Majesty to the State.

Section 88: Secretary of Omit from exclusion clause the following: the Cabinet, Permanent Secretaries, Heads of Government Departments.

Delete the words "and any other office designated by the Commission" which occur at the end of the paragraph.
The transfers of the Secretary of the Cabinet, Permanent,-SccrotiJrleS'-'ahd Heads of Government Departments be vested in the Governor-General acting the advice of the Prime Minister.

Section 91• Appeals on matters relating to the public service shall lie to the Council of State.

Section 98: The question of the removal of the Auditor General shall lie with the Council of State.

The study of the- Proposed Constitution continues and further submiss­ ion will be made in due course.

Signed: Hon.

P.S.W.


Goldson, Deputy Party Leader, United Democratic Party.

on — CHAIRMAN: question of these two gentlemen before us?

Thank you for your clear presentation, Members, any HON.

F. J. MhRIN: I noted from the presentation as signed by the Deputy Party Leader, the Leader does he support this also?

HON.

P.S.W.

GOLDSON: Yes, of course, this is a submission of the Central Executive of the Party.

Yes, CHAIRMAN: Any other question?


If there is none then it only remains for me to thank you Mr. Goldson and Mr. Fairweather.

MR. FAIRWEATHER: presentation too.

Thank you, very much Mr. Chairman for your clear 32 Selvin Sutherland Lakeview and Banak Street ( citizen ) CHAIRMAN: your views on the white Paper.

Please take a seat, Mr Sutherland, May we now have Mr Sutherland: White Paper.

I have written out my views concerning this CHAIRMAN: You have it written?
Mr Sutherland: Yes, it's like- a recommendation and my proposal of getting independence, right?

like this: Now I have written it "Dear Mr Minister, on the proposal of Independence, I am hereby standing with you all and looking forward for this day which I reckon is a day that should and must come.

I must now mention my views on this proposal.

■ Ministers and Leaders of Government must provide plenty of work and continue to increase wages.

Our laws to continue the same peaceful civilization way.
Police must respect civilian and civilian ■ must respect Police.

Government must find some strong way to encourage the farmers to grow food produce; this is one point that should never stop because when the other country cannot afford to send their flour and macaronies, we have our cocoa and cassava going.

Now just remember this shipment of food shortage from our country will not be of Government fault.

The Bible tells us there will be shortage of food all over the world.
So back to, as Government provides work and wages, the people must invest it on growing more food on the farm.

We want our country and our people to be respected by any other foreigner.

We must love Belize and our people?

and we must be jealour over this land.

\ this is my view on the proposal of Mr Minister, Independence, and these views which I mentioned are through experience from which I gain from all the little independent countries in Central America, including Guatemala, the big one.
These four things, I mentioned, are the things which cause the people to lose their mind; such as paragraph 1, without work and wages, the people1s D <0 J - 31 - less than three months before the life of the National Assembly is due to expire by op, ration of law.

Section 77 and 80: The question of the removal of a Judge shall be referred by Her Majesty to the Judicial Committee of the Council of State.

Section 88: Secretory of the Cabinet, Permanent Secretaries, Heads of Government Departments.
Omit from exclusion clause the following: Delete the words "and any other office designated by the Commission" which occur at the end of the.

paragraph.

The transfers of the Secretary of the Cabinet, Permanent..'SccretRrldg''and Heads of Government Departments be vested in the Governor-General acting on the advice of the Prime Minister.

Section 91: Appeals on matters relating to the public service shall lie to the Council of State.
Section 98: The question of the removal of the Auditor General shall lie with the Council of State.

The study of the Proposed Constitution continues and further submiss­ ion will be made in due course.

Signed: Hon.

P.S.W.

Goldson, Deputy Party Leader, United Democratic Party.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your clear presentation, Members, any question of these two gentlemen before us?

HON.
HON.

F. J. M/iRIN: I noted from the presentation as signed by the Deputy Party Leader, the Leader does he support this also?

HON.

P.S.W.

GOLDSON: Yes, of course, this is a submission of the Yes, Central Executive of the Party.

CHAIRMziN: Any other question?

If there is none then it only remains for me to thank you Mr. Goldson and Mr. Fairweather,.

FIR.

FAIRWEATHER: Thank you, very much Mr. Chairman for your clear presentation too.
c I f 33 Paragraph 2 - without laws and justice there will be no peace among the people of this land.

Paragraph 3 - when other country cannot afford to sell us food and the farmer does not grow enough we can and would die for hunger.

we want to be recognized Paragraoh 4 - why we want respect from other country and foreign people is because as good people and citizens.
to feel like we do not know and understand, once they get that belief, they will continue to push us down and down untol we, natives of the soil, have no room nor voice.

I thank you, Mr Minister.

We do not want them because we, Sgd.

Selvin G. Sutherland.

II CHAIRMAN: Mr Selvin Sutherland, this Committee wish to go on recqrd as thanking you.

We would like to have your paper in writing to supplement the records and we would like to thank you for your sincerety in presenting your views.
Emidjio Alamilla 5 1C1 Street, Kings Park ( citizen ) CHAIRMAN: Mr Alamilla, you appear as a citizen or as a representative of an organization?

Mr Alamilla: I represent myself and my family.

CHAIRMAN: the White Paper.

Would you give us in your own words your views on There are three points I want to discuss.

Mr Alamilla: The first one is 4(a)"Protection of the Right to Life".
"Every human being has the inherent right to life, in execution of a lawful sentence of a court, of war or in circumstances justified"etc etc.

that, but I think there is a contradiction here.

at 4(d) it says "Protection from Inhuman Treatment".

person shall be subjected to torture or to ctuel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment."

That is the word I take up "cruelty", and I believe any form of execution is a cruel act so this is my suggestion here, right.
We either qualify cruel or drop it completely.

Death in a lawful act I agree with If you look "No I ■ I » .

I 'do I K ■ ■ CHAIRMAN: The intention of cruel here is, of course, where you weren't even killed.

They are cruel to you and you still exist by other bodies that we give the lav; to arrest and, you know of the accusation of police brutality in the community; so our intention there was to prevent that.

Mr Alamilla: covers that.


The word "torture", you know, I think that CHAIRMAN: We take your word for that, submit to this Committee.

So, you would then Mr Alamilla: it.

In other words, you drop it or you qualify CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Alamilla.

Any other suggestion?

Next one.

Mr Alamilla: go through to 84.

I think that is a word that can be stretched, can be stretched and I would like to see that defined.

Starting from Section 77 and What I was thinking of is misbehaviour.
Its meaning CHAIRMAN: In the case of the Judge.

The next one deals with appointments.

Mr Alamilla: Section 88, it says "the powers to appoint persons to hold office in the Public Service, to exercise disciplinary control over persons in the Services, and to remove such persons from office, shall vest in the Public Services Commission.
Excluded from tie authority of the Public Services Commission shall be the offices following: Secretary of the Cabinet, Permanent Secretary, the head of departments of Government."

Now, this is the part that I am concerned about.

Two things I raised here; first it says here that the Public Service Commission can't appoint heads of departments.

It sort of imply then that either the Minister of somebody else.

CHAIRMAN: The Prime Minister advise the Governor-General.

Mr Alamilla: Service or from outside?


Now, would these people come from the Public CHAIRMAN: In the case of the Permanent Secretaries and the Secretary to the- Cabinet, yes, they would come from the Public yes, Service.

0 0 a ft ■ o J 35 Mr Alamilla: open to lay people also.

Well, this is my suggestion: this should be CHAIRMAN: Yes.

We had such a recommendation and you are making another one.

Public Service.

That is, it should be in addition to the Mr Alamilla: The Service and anybody from outside.
CHAIRMAN: Yes.

I think that would be similarly true in the Case of ambassadors and representatives of the Government abroad.

Mr Alamilla: Professional Adviser well, that implies somebody from outside already.

That's right.

That's right.


I think that the Chief Now, this is: the next point I have to bring up here: that, I believe the fact that this was excluded from the Public Service Commission,sort of imply that the Government, whichever Government gets in right, they want to have their own people in power.

CHAIRMAN: What do you mean, citizens?

Mr Alamilla: They should all be citizens.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, made clear.

and that's your submission and that should be Mr Alamilla: this is a contradiction here.
The Public Service Commission will have control over the junior officers.

Now, another thing, I believe that I think CHAIRMAN: Where are we, Mr Alamilla?

The same section 88.

I think it implies Mr Alamilla: here that the Public Service Commission will have control over the Civil Service; now what authority does the Head of Department have over the Civil Service?
This is only dealing with appointments, The day to CHAIRMAN: day authority remains the same; appointment s. have anything; this is only dealing with Right now the head of the department doesn't you follow?

The junior people, right now, head of the department does not appoint.

This is only the individual.

36 Once appointed, you're Put to improve.it, a job that you're to do which is defined in the Gazette and in the terms and conditions of service to the person who is appointed.
Once that happens you're under the authority of the Head of Department.

There is no contradiction in that* This is only with appointments.

Mr AlamiIla: That is all then.

I don't have anything else.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Alamilla, for your advice.

There is no other name on this list before.me and if there are any other citizen who wish to come and give his views, it is now in order for them to do so before we adjourn.

F.H.

Hunter: Village Council of Bermudian Landing, and Isabella Bank.
Mr Chairman, I have two submissions from the CHAIRMAN: Let the record shovz that the Minister of Works has tendered two submissions from the Village Councils of Bermudian Landing and Isabella Bank.

Are there' any other persons who wish to appear before the Committee?

If not, I shall declare this morning's sitting adjourn until two o'clock.

Adjourned 12 Noon.

Resumed 2:00 p.m. Hon.

V.H.


Courtenay, in the Chair CHAIRMAN: I declare open this afternoon's proceedings of the Joint Select Committee of the National Assembly on the Government White Paper on the Constitution of Belize and I would wish to repeat the customary announcements which are: firstly, that our authority emanates from a Resolution of the National Assembly, which has authorized us to consider and to report to it on the Government's proposals'contained in the White Paper.
therefore, restricted to such comments, White Paper, and to no other subjects; grateful if supplicants would bear this in mind and restrict their submissions, accordingly.

as are relevant on the we would, therefore, be We are, Two, that these are proceedings of the National Assembly; and, although we allow the public to be present, the o o 0 o rules of the National Assembly apply.
And one of the rules, of both Houses, is that any proceedings in a Committee should published until that Committee has had a chance to make its not be report.

■y?

I think the reasons for that are on with them.

obvious and I need not go Thirdly, any person who would wish to appear before us, today, I would be grateful, it would facilitate our work, if you would submit your name to the Clerk so that we could take people in order, in the order in which they have submitted their names.

Thank you very much.


I would wish, gentlemen, to say that we have received from one Orlando idagana of 3 Allenby Street, a set of submissions and I will ask that this should be placed on the record and that we should, in due course, have copies.

The first two persons on the list of the Clerk is Mr Nuri Muhammad and Mr Victor Lewis.

Nuri Muhammad Victor Lewis Belize City.

CHAIRMAN: (representing the Islamic Mission Belize) Good afternoon, gentlemen, please take a seat.
We would be happy to hear what you have to say.

Mr Muhammad: read the preamble and then go into our submissions.

We have the preamble and we would like to I would also like to point out, that because of the problem of time, we weren't able to type out our submissions, but we will be typing it out and submitting a typed-written copy to you.

CHAIRMAN: We would be grateful, the records very accurate.
It would assist us in keeping So, we begin our preamble with the name Mr Muhammad: of God most gracious, most merciful.

We are, indeed, pleased that Government has exercised the principle of consultation with the people on matters of such serious nature as the basic law of the land.

We recognize that this White Paper does not constitute a legal document, but rather a statement of principles which will eventually be incorporated into our Constitution.
We would hope, therefore, that this same principle of consultation with the people, will be repeated when the proposed Constitution is drafted or presented.

We would underline this request because of the important nature of the draft Constitution which we would say is important to us to observe before this is ratified.

38 CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, before you pass on, up your minds about this.

might as well I clear The Constitution of Belize is going to be an Act of the British Parliament.
British Parliament; their own good time.
We have absolutely no control over the what they choose to do, they will do in Mr Muhammad: Is that to suggest that We hope - out of experience and knowledge of the CHAIRMAN: process of legislation in the United Kingdom - we hope that there are going to be a few months in between the presentation of the Belize Constitution and its passage.. And we sit like you, hoping that we will be able to influence it at that late date, but we do rely heavily on our ability to negotiate, as much as possible, what the people of Belize express and their wishes.
This is why this exercise is so important.

If the Governor can go to the British Government and be supported in its request by the people of this country, then, of course, it can be all the more stronger.

Please understand that by colonialism we are still in the position where the Constitution of Belize is an Act of the British Parliament.

And let me give you one other little information.


Out of my experience, Bills which are presented to the British Parliament are published and can be purchased from Her Majesty's stationery offices.

So, that is our position.

The Government of this country cannot Control the British Parliament.

We don't want to pretend we can.

Mr Muhammad: The question that comes to mind is what would be the time between the first publishing of the Bill and the passing into law, approximately?
I Again, it is in the hands of the Parliament.

CHAIRMAN: But we expect, in fact, they have been hurrying us because they need somewhere in the region of five to six months.

Government gets legislation through Parliament on an average of about five to six months.

They, are saying to us, if we are not ready to talk to them early, you know, we might not get the Constitution passed but for a long time, They, are saying to us, So, you could see The why.
Mr Muhammad: Well, we would hope to addLto that, that.... CHAIRMAN: And there are ways of influencing Parliament, of course, if you have influence with Parliament.

A 3 * < 39 Mr Muhammad: I think we will ask, Mr Minister - what we are really requesting is that when that procedure really begins and the document itself is available that the same service that is presented here of consulting the people on the draft itself will also be repeated at that time, that.
That's our main point on We continue that, in general, our community agrees with most of the basic principles laid out in the White Paper.

Though, we recognize that history has proven that man-made Constitution are seriously limited in the ability to govern the affairs of human beings; since the human being is a creature of Almighty God, it is only He, God, who has the supreme knowledge of the principle do's and don'ts of running any civilized society.
constitution is contained in the Holy Quran which was revealed from the Almighty God to prophet Muhammad, peace be on to him, 1400 years ago.

It is our firm belief that the model for an ideal o We further believe, and history bears witness that the principles contained in the Holy Quran to this truth, from the basis for the inter-relationship between the citizen and the State.

revolution, and thereafter.


In all modern civilized nation,since the first In conclusion, we realize that what is written on <■> paper to govern man's actions and how man actually carries out those actions often conflicts and because of this weakness we believe that when all consultations are recorded and perfectly worded constitution is written, it's only the fear of God in the hearts of the citizens of Belize that will make us abide by those principles of truth and justice contained in pur constitution.
As a preamble, we are presenting these points.

We would also like a quotation from the Scripture which says in the Bible "that righteousness exhaulteth the Nation, but sin is a reproach toward the people".

Having said that, we would like also now go into some of the points which we would also like to be observed.
Firstly, we recognize that the preamble of a constitution,and you can correct us if we are wrong, are basically the principles which are contained in the constitution proper and that, in 'truth and in fact, Government cannot be held bounded to the preamble of a constitution.

I would not want to say such a strong word as a preamble is an empty statement, a but we know that it's all flowery words designed to influence the mind.
And an example of this would be the United States constitution which states that we hold these truths to be self- evident; that all men are created equal; yet, we still see a 1 40 problem of civil rights, even in 1980 with Africans and Americans still not being given the rights which they are due under the law and the constitution.
So, we would like to point out that we recognize that in the preamble there are very beautiful words, but, in truth and in fact it is the constitution proper that we would have to hold bounded Government to the people and people to the Government.

In Section 1, whore it says that"Belize shall be declared a sovereign and democratic state of Central America in the Caribbean Region comprising all the territory of Belize as is now known and defined."
We feel that the words here are not conclusive enough as to the boundaries of Belize proper when we take into consideration the Law-of-the sea Conference and such other discussions taking place in international forums.

If we don't define our boundaries, in accordance with these expectations, we can see then people will be encroaching on our areas which rightfully belongs to us and so it was unclear to us here exactly what is meant by "as is now known and defined".
And, if in not including such things as the Law-of-the sea Conference, we would like to encourage that that be included in that section.

A CHAIRMANS Thank you.

Mr Muhammad; of the Law".

suggest here Going on to page 4 Section (c) "Protection Again, admirable.

However, we would like to that perhaps this has been an oversight, but we would like to see it included.... that every person charged with a criminal offence shall be deemed innocent, shall be afforded an early and fair trial by jury of his peers.
I would also like to see somewhere incorporated in here - and you will understand our restraints in terms of legal language, that there should be something about the non-admissible evidence of a confession that's taken in private.

We feel that that should also be included in there.

And we feel that there is also room in that clause for an Ombudsman.

Onward to (f)„.. you can restrain me if I am going too fast.
We assume that the spirit of intent here is good, but we feel that the words have some very troubled implications.

We would like to see somewhere in there a reshuffling of those words and we would also like to be incorporated in there a mention of warrants.

It is very essential for the protection of human rights and the procedures that there must be some evidence shown to higher authority before the right-to forceable enter.

a - ■ » •• 41 Going on to page 9 number 18.


We would like to strongly suggest that the Cabinet shall not... total number of the Cabinet shall not constitute ; a majority of the Members of the House of Representatives.

i Our purpose here is that we feel that there should be a need for some back-benchers.
Onward to 20, We recognize here1in the second to the last sentence, where it says "a Minister may also be designated Deputy Prime Minister to whom the functions of the Prime Minister may be deputed from time to time by the Prime Minister".

We recognize the word "may" there, and I guess it's a cautionary word insteal of "shall"; but we the Deputy Prime Minister should not come from the Senate.
death of Our rationale for that is that in the event of the the Prime Minister, if the Deputy Prime Minister is not a Member of the House, were to take over, we would actually in fact, be having a Prime Minister who has not been voted, rather, he has been appointed; and for that purpose of the smooth feel here that running of Government.
Now, that is attached, of course, to 26, where the Governor-General is authorized after it has been declared that the Prime Minister cannot perform his function, death, illness or whatever, that any other Minister to perform the function of Prime Minister.

We would think that automatically ’ Deputy Prime Minister would be the one to automatically the act.

CHAIRMAN; Just one minute, please.

Yes.

Please go ahead.

Mr Muhammad: It has been called to my attention, and this is something that is important.
In clause 20, it says that "a Minister may", whereas over here, it says, it points out that in the Governor-General's selection of any other Minis ter to perform that duty, if you had "shall" over here there would be an automatic Deputy Prime Minister.

Whereas over here there is no Deputy Prime Minister, therefore any Minister can be appointed.

CHAIRMAN: That's 26?

Yes.

Actually just by way of explanation, if I may, the words deputed unfortunately has a typical meaning in law.
Deputed means that he is deputed by the Prime Minister, that if the Prime Minister, for example, goes away for a short SO while or so, the Prime Minister can deputize somebody to take his c> o o a o I 42 place.

A different situation arises if the Prime Minister dies, if there is no Prime Minister he may not deputize.
Therefore, the Governor-General' is called upon to go back to the original procedure which is to go to the House of Representatives and select, as Prime Minister, that persom whom, in his opinion, can command the majority support in the House of Representatives.

If you see what really is behind the provisions in 20 and 26, right?

Section 20 is a situation where the Prime Minister or himself deputes somebody to represent him in his absence something of that nature.
In a more permanent illness or situation, let's say he is going to be ill for a long time let's say he is going to be ill for and he cannot attend meetings of the House or something like that, then the Governor-General will be looking for somebody who can command the majority support in the House of Representatives.

that you have said.

I just thought that I understand your point of view, but .

I would make this point.

But, I am not saying this to negate anything Mr Muhammad: O.K.

In 46, Very good.
In 46, Very good.

it says that a Member of the National Assembly shall vacate his seat if he is absent from the Sitting of the House or Senate for such period and in such circumstances as may be prescribed by the Standing Orders; if he ceases to be a citizen of Belize or, if any circumstances arise that, were he not a Member, he would be disqualified for election for appointment to the National Assembly.

We feel that in here there should be incorporated the Code of Conduct for our leaders.
Since the position of leadership is one which all citizens should look up to and that these should be made of spotless character, then we believe that here in this clause, point on dissolution, that once it is proven beyond the shadow of doubt, that there has been the violation of the Code of Conduct, then, that particular Member of the National Assembly should be removed from that position.

So, we are stressing here the need for the Code of Conduct to be incorporated in 46.
Now, we recognize that the Code of Conduct already exists here for Members of the National Assembly in 100 - However, what we are trying to get in this "Code of Conduct".

Code of Conduct thing here is a penalty.

We are seeing a statement here and it is good but we see nothing happening if there is a violation.

So, we feel that what should be added to 100 is "and failure to do such 'after due process of investigatbn !
i i o Q O a <3 43 and proof has boon established shall be dismissed from their position subject to appeal.

And I think that could go right up to the Privy Council.

I don't know if there is any legal procedure for that, but the point we are making here is that there should be something taking place has been shown to be lacking in this.
if one And lastly, we would like to say in general to the Select Committee that there is a great need for education: educating the citizens of Belize on the Constitution, their rights and their obligations; and it should be a continuous process so that the citizens of Belize will understand and have the strength to live with the ....... o o Q O o J ■ ■ ■ \ .1 * a Constitution and not .just have it there as we've had the British power over us with no knowledge of it.
And we view this that is taking place here certainly as part of that education.

One line of constructive criticism and this is a request, I couldn't quite understand when I came here a few days ago, why if this is a public hearing, that it's.not louder so that people in the audience can hear submission and the response.
The reason, I ask this is because if it was private hearing and the doors were closed and the people .were told to stay downstairs and come up one by one it wouldn't be any different than what is taking place now.

Since what I have presented and others, is really not heard by people who are here in the public that we should make it more public.
And we feel that if we wish to come forward to the people and to explain these things to them, then we should, perhaps, ask that the person sit in that corner, so that he must speak loudly, so that everybody can hear and response must be loud enough so that everybody can constructively criticize.

CHAIRMAN: principles of the White Paper are expected of you all.

Are there any other questions?

General Yes.


Qualifying that by saying that we MUHAMMAD: recognize that those principles there rest on the administra­ tors of the principles, but in general, ve find that on reviewing a certain constitution in the Caribbean, Jamaica for example, and we were looking through that last night and we find that there are great 'similarities between the two, but everything rest on the leadership and likewise the people, having the knowledge of when to call the leadership to check.
We.

fell that this is very very important.

CHAIRMAN: Anything else?

Well, gentlemen, it remains for me to ask you- personally to live up to your promise that you are going ‘to- send us a copy of that.

It will assist our records in being accurate.

Secondly, thank you both for taking the time off for coming here to speak with us this afternoon and to your organization for spending the time thinking about it.

And we would ask- you to take back our words of gratitude to the Islamic Mission in Belize.
Thank you.

Honourable L.. Sylvestre, I just thought that CHAIRMAN: I would like t.-, p-e-t yOur assistance■for the purpose of the records, so that we got all the names.

* ■'“’“I t. t I I ■ I - 1+5 To save time, Mr, Chairman, the names are Mr. Sylvestre: written down here on the submissions so you can have them.

These are all representatives.from the Belize Rural South.

We would like to take in two parts.


There are certain questions which the Members of the Belize South would like to clarify on the White Paper itself.

Mr* Barrow: A(f) Protection against arbitrary search or entry.

We want to clarify the morality on page It has been severely criticised It is the worst written para- Gentlemen, let mo say immediately, it is CHAIRMAN?

a very badly drawn paragraph.


graph in the whole White Paper, already that the paragraph itself, does not coincide with the heading, but that what is in the paragraph is under no other heading, but should be there.

So that what the recommendations that we have been having so far is that we should have two things.

We should have protection against arbitrary search or entry and that should be defined and properly spelt out.
And then we should also deal with detention, because that is not dealt with elsewhere.

So that the proposals which we have, like you, others have recognized how badly drawn this paragraph is and those are the recommendations which we have had so far; that deten­ tion needs to be specifically dealt with and that the rights of individuals not to be arbitrarily detained, should be clearly spelt out.
Now, the other paragraph which is (i) on Mr. Sylvestre: page 5, again that deals with the part that has morality or health.
CHAIRMAN: We have here a problem, or we could have a problem where it is necessary to control what is being done by some section of the public, using the mass media to corrupt our children, for instance, people have spoken to us very strongly about the rights of children, corrupting the minds of children, either morally or we may find that we may have to control some, for purposes of health, some advertisements that are made which say that certain drugs can do., certain things when they can't do it, encouraging people to use drugs for a specific purpose, and then you find that the drugs do not satisfy the purpose.
If you look on a pack of U.S. cigarettes, you will see what we're talking about, where health is concerned; there is a warning.

The laws behind it says that it requires that every packet o o o o 0 I - A6 - of cigarettes, that the public’ should be told.

Although cigarettes has been advertised as something great to smoke, that it is dangerous too.

So we have to put restrictions like those; and similarly in.
the case of morality, we find that sontbody gets up and uses the newspaper for advertising a brotnl or something of the sort and describing .the type of luxurious attractions that he has therein.

I we.

wouldn’t want that to be in the newspaper for our children to read.

So that there may be circumstances in which the right of free speech, and the right to publish what is in your mind has got to be limited and this is what these exceptions are taking care of.
So, Mr. Barrow: is intended solely io?.- '•'her.

5.t would have to be defined that it that purpose and no other purpose• Cl CHAIRMAN: all in here, otherwise this would have been, instead of a hundred paragrapas, it would have been a thousand paragraphs.

It ..ill have to be.

We couldn't write it Mr. Sylvestres C:' 11 could bo stated in the law itself.

CHAIRMAN: In the law itself it will have to be stated.

Mr. Barrow: right of free What we are concerned with is about the speech.
I join you with that and I’m sure that all CHAIRMAN: the Members of the Committee, joins you.

The attempt here was to abbreviate things; make it so short that people wcuLd read it and see what.the.exceptions are.

I think, if I may suggest, that the records of this ’Committee should show your concern, for of all about paragraph (f) - the state of paragraph (f) as well as the paragraphs, that you feel -that the limitations to free speech should be clearly defined and.

set out in the Constitution.


So that’s your idea.

What are worrying ycu should be on the records.. Mr. Barrow: that would deal with the same two things, morality and health,.

so this one clarifies itself.

.I think we have on the other paragraph (k) CHAIRMAN: You want it in (k) as well?

Mr. Sylvestre: Also in (j) and (k).

In the case of (j) I think it is even CHAIRMAN: more easily understood.
If a:contagious disease, let's say cholera broke out in.Belize City , we -wouldn'-t want- the people of.Belize City going to- Hattieville or to Boom, right?

I HF2- - - / i » Mr., Barrow: No.

^7 - CHAIRMAN: ment.

This is the concept.

Me have to restrict their right of move­ Mr. Sylvestre: ment of what can be done.
Mhat we are concerned with is the state- If I may say so, Minister, if our records CHAIRMAN: show y>ur concern of this delegation, on those particular points, then of course, the Committee will take it into consideration when we are preparing our reports.

Mr• Barrow: I go to 7, Public Emergencies - section (b).
On page 7, section 6, 8 and 9 it tells you Mr. Sylvestre: that the proclamation is made by the Governor-General: at 9 it says 'the Legislature may by resolution make a declaration not exceeding six months', but then the proclama- wouB have been made already.

The question is, would that be done by the House of Representatives, by a resolution, before the proclamation is made or the Governor-General by his office can just make a proclamation without the consent of the House of Representatives?
then o First of all, let's be very clear who the CHAIRMAN: Governor-General is.

The Governor-General is a representa­ tive of Her Majesty the Queen.
Her Majesty the Queen is a figure head; the representative of a figure head is a figure head; and you will see in the Constitution, if I may point it out to you, paragraph 17; 'in the performance of his functions, the Governor-General shall act in accordance with the advice of the Minister of Government •responsible for tie matter or subject, unless he is specifically by law authorised to ao-t otherwise'.
Now, that means that whenever the Governor-General operates it's the Government opensving, so that the proclamation would be made by the Government on the advice of the Governor.

That's •t’1G first thing; but that proclamation, if you look at +-ie last sentence of paragraph 8, that proclamation -’nly if the Government does it, can only exists one month at the most, but it could be shortened by jiie legislature meeting and declaring that proclamation to •nave no further force or effect.
You noticed that one month unless previously revoked or extended by the legislature.

So that.

although something may happen tonight and tomorrow the Government takes action, the day after the House of Representatives may jump in and say no, you have done wrong o a o r - 48 and we revoked that proclamation.

So, that's the first thing we want to understand.

The proclamation is issued on the advice of the Governor, and that it only last for a month and that it can be cut short by the legislature.
Now, the real power vest in the legislature and if the legislature is of the opinion that a proclamation has been properly, or the circumstances are adequate and proper for a proclamation to exist, it will leave it alone; that the first one; and secondly, at the end of the month, the legislature may decide that the situation has not been cured and therefore it might extend it in the first instance, it can extend it up to a period of six months and thereafter, it can only be extended for successive periods of three months.
So that, it has to be continuously reviewed.

Let’s take a case of war, even though a state of war exists, there is going to be review of the emergency by the legisla­ ture, continuously.

Mr. Sylvestre; The main point which is 6 to be clarified.

Once the proclamation say that the energency act is made, how quickly does the legislature go into session to.

see whether that act is valid or invalid?

CHAIRMAN: Government to call it or the Opposition might push very hard for independence.
Mr. Sylvestre: from the time of the proclamation being called, the House goes into its emergency.

Well, if you feel that way, we'll certainly CHAIRMAN: make a note of it.

What would you wish to propose as a time limit?

Immediately.

As quickly as possible.

Mr. Sylvestre:’ So that you would recommend that the CHAIRMAN: legislature should meet as quickly.as possible after a proclamation has been received.

Mr. Barrow: then you send the fire pump.


Mr. Sylvestre: here on 8, 10 ' Protection rf Existing Levs'.

being asked at 10, provision must be made to protect the laws existing and in force in Belize at the commencement of the Constitution.

Then at 3, 2, it says 'the Constitution shall be declared the api-emv law of Belize.

Any law ±ixvurisistent therewith shall be declared void to the extent of the inconsistency'.

On that, we intended to ask for clarification.


Shouldn't that be stated in the Constitution That's a question for the Governor and the You won't wait until your house burn down Now, we go to page 10 paragraph 21.

The question were It says 1 / - * - I 49 - Well, we have a problem here that vie CHAIRMAN: are now writing out for the first time in the history of our country Human Rights and Fundamental Freedom.
We didn't have it before, so that some of the laws that we have, would be in violation of the Human Rights and Freedoms the day after our new constitution comes into effect; and we may have, we don't know, but we may very well have, that the day after we become independent, so much of our laws is invalid that we have chaos.

We don't have any of that lav/ at all, that our law is in a mess.

In those circumstances, to protect the situation, so that at least there is a transitional situation.
The proposal here of the White Taper is that those laws , we begin from the day of our constitution would not go back and look at our laws retrospectively, those that are in force would remain in force.
Now, I think, that it's fair to say to you, that this concern has been expressed by others who have come before us and they have recommended that the old laws should not remain good laws indefinitely; and they feel that the Government shoid go through a process of review and that it should be given a reasonable time to bring the existing.laws into line with the freedoms which are being adapted into the Constitution.
This is a proposal, please, which I think so far period of five years, giving a get the old laws into shape.

I you what you are thinking, what's in your mind, problem, I don't know if I've explained the problem good enough.

and all those sort, which are on the books from Colonial days.

Some of them are old, older than me and you, some from the 1800.

A lot of them, we will find violating this constitution once this comes into effect.
But we've been using it and if all of a sudden one morning we wake up and we find out that we don't have them to use anymore, we are {ping to be in.

serious trouble.

So, that the idea of paragraph 10 that, at least, we would have some stability the day after independence.

As I say, we have a proposal that that stability should not go on for ever and that it should be.limited.

I think, the general recommenda­ tion is about five years.

.
.

maximum of five years to We would be glad to hear from Some of the very old laws, the seditious laws as said a You see the o o ,.. a’A'a* *a tfHA.

«?•!?

?.• • V Sylvestre: We were thinking about three.

Money have to be spent in getting a team of draughtsmen to get ou ;y on that quickly.

Chairman: Well, we accept your proposal ns being th.’.t paragraph 10 should be limited to three years.
Sylvestres Now we have paragraph 21, The Attorney General, the section that deals with any person or authority in the exercise of his functions, the Attorney General shall not be subject to the direction or control of any person or authority.

Chairman: Again, there have been some concern expressed to us about this and it seems to arise out of a misunderstanding.
Of all the Ministers in Government the Attorney General, is different from all tire rest of them in that he is a professional and he's Attorney General because he is a professional man 0 His functions are, firstly, to advice the Government about what is lawful and what is unlawful, as a Lawyer.

His second mein function is the administration of justice.

Somebody has to look after justice and see to it that they get enough money to run, that they get the buildings etc.

etc.
etc.

and that is his second function.

J-hose are his two main functions.

Nov; first of all, the recommendation here is that when hi is doing his offical function, he should not be subject to pressure, and since he is a politician, we are thinking principally of political pressure.

We can think of a situation for instance where oneof his constituency has committed an offence, a crime.

Maybe that family, in it's constituency is big.


Maybe they have many votes and the?/ come before the poor Attorney General and decide to tell him that if you don't let that man go we won't vote for you again.

He is threatened, As a politician, he might bow to that pressure, if it wore possible.

And so the suggestion which is contained in that last sentence is that he should not; in the performance of functions, ho should be protected from all pressures.
Nobody can come and toll him how he must advise Government and how he must administer the court, Well, those are concern; not even his colleagues can tell him.

He must be in apposition where he can tell Government what he o believes is the law.

He honestly bel ieves that this is the law and then his colleagues can decide what they will do about it, once they know what the law is.

It's important that Government should have an.


honest, legal opinion; not an opinion that is tainted by what a particular Minister might feel would be what Government wants to hear.

H@ must b.?

free to tell them what the truth is.

If a Minister do something wron.

;, he must advise the Cabinet that that Minister is wrong in lav/ and that Minister can't squeeze him after that.

Barrow: But that power- should be limited only to functions of the Attorney General.

Chairman: That' s ri ght.


Sylvestres That should be stated.

■ f Chairman: It is so stated in, the exorcise of his functions, the Attorney- General shall not be subjected.

In other words.

Sylvestre.

He cannot be questioned at all about any thing or things that is exercise in his functions whechcr he oc right or vzrong.

Chairman: That is right.

He can be ri;>io or he can be wrong, but he must be able to do it freely.

If he makes a mistake well, the government has made a mistake.
I mean if he gives advice and it's bad legal advice, well, Govemmentis going to pay the bill, but ho must be able to do so freely.

If he is allowed to be harrassed by what people want the advice to be, the likoly- hood is that he is going to give highly projudical wrongly on his opinion, and that is not going to serve the ovemment.

In tbeend, on the longer run, that is not going to serve the wovemment right.

This does not mean that the <3 Attorney General is above the law.
Barrow; What we are concerned about ,.s the power vested in the Attorney General as far as we can see, whether he's right or vzrong, so thatrobody can question him.

Let's say, for instance, other legal authorities might find that he is wrong, the State still can't question him?

Chairman: Yes, but all that he has done is advice I mean, ■ and a lawyer can be vzrong.
Please don't believe that every lawyer is right, That's what courts are about and he may give the Government bad legcl advice and if he gives the Government bad legal advice 9 the Govermcnt is going to suffer, its going to pay for it.

Sylvestre?

Then the populace in turn pay - Chairman: No, not necessarily, well, ,es it .

:ii$it bo the tax payers, that may be so.

That is what we are guarding against.


Chairman: Yes, but what -we are trying to guard against is to try and put him in a position that he cannot' give honest advice .

If he is not protected, let me put it to you the other way, if he is not so protected then he is going to be in a position where he is likely to give wrong advice.

Sylvestre: So it is one and a half dozen of the other 6.

Q o o Chairman: No.
Q o o Chairman: No.

Ramos s In the exercise of the functions, he may exercise as his function, the Attorney General shall not be subject to direction nor control.

What it really is that the Attorney General giving advice should not do so for anybody.

means Barrow: We understand that part.

The only part that we are worried about is the amount of power he has, that the extent that he cannot be vzrong at the same time.

Chairman?

Minister.

thing, the No.

It is not saying that he can't be wrong.


Ho is like any other If he gives Government vzrong advice and.

Government does the vzrong Government pays, card if it affects the oitizenry the democratic process is going to punish the Government.

They are going to be out of power.

I mean that's a democratic system, right?

The system is that, so long as as the Government goes along and meets th.

;- will of the people, it probably will stay in office.
The day it does something that issso henious, or so bad, the people will turn them out.

I can think of many examples.

'.

'o just had one in Belize City.

'^ho Attorney General himself, let's unde?

?stand, is not a Minister that is managing, let's say the Ministry of Education or the Ministry of Health or i. o I o * 52 something like that, his functions in this regard, Attorney General,.are limited.

legal advice to the Government.


And one, it is to give him The Government has to have as bad one or That's the purpose, right, a legal adviser, whether he is a good one or a whether his advice is right or wrong, they have to have one and the effort hope is to be sure that when he gives his legal advice, the Government is listening to him and not-to somebody else through him.
because that could easily happen, the case of public auditor, and the public auditor goes through the books: we want to know is that the public auditor feels free to put in his report to the legislature what he finds, otherwise he is likely to be under severe pressure, if he is not so protected.

act one way or the other.

But it doesn't mean that if he goes out and does something wrong,as a man, that he isn't subject to the lav/ like anybody else.
If you will notice in the same provisions are here: and what He is likely to be under severe pressure to It says in 23 if there, is a motion of Mr Sylvestre: no confidence passed in the House, the Prime Minister shall either resign, that means he resigns the office or advise the Governor-General to dissolve the National Assembly.
Mr Barrow: Prime Minister can resign, but the House of Representatives should remain, What we are saying here is that the No confidence in the There can be no confidence remember it's he Section 23 is a specific case where there is no rn.-r .. CHAIRMAN: confidence in the Primer Minister.
Prime Minister can take two forms, in the Government of the Prime Minister; who selects the Government, and if there is a decision taken by that Government and all Ministers are responsible for it, when the House says we no longer have confidence in you, they may mean the Prime Minister and his Government, then the whole Government falls.

The proper course then is for them to go back to the people and make the people decide what they want done.
There may be a case, however, where the attack is directed against the individual, the Prime Minister, his leadership, in which case he personally would resign, and some of the Ministers might decide to form a Government.

/ 53 Mr Barrow: That's what we wondered, That's why wc asked for the regulations to be put in here.

CHAIRMAN: Well, there are two alternative positions.

It depends on what the no confidence vote is.


Suppose it is a policy they don't like; suppose the no confidence arises; from the debate it emerges that the criticism is a criticism against a major policy of the Government - let's say land reform; some people say well, we don't like your land reform programme and as a result the Government is voted down on land reform.

The Prime Minister's job then would be to go to the Governor and say please dissolve the House and let's go to elections.
Let the people choose.

But, if on the other hand, it was an attack, let's say on George Price; let's say George Price did something bad, he sells out Belize, personally, right?

I know here it is laughable, but you could say it, and let's say there was such a situation, then it would be a personal matter and then he would resign alone, but some other Minister may be willing to try and form a Government in the circumstances.
that our views, We want to make one thing clear, Mr Barrow: Mr Chairman, here are not only to protect this present generation; think about our future generation, as well; directed really to any individual, so to speak, more than dealing with what is contained within the White Paper.

the views that we are bringing so it is not we Let me say this, if it is your view on this 23, Please, we understand that very well.

1 was the person who called name, but I did it to CHAIRMAN: that, illustrate.
in particular, that only the Prime Minister, that in all circumstances, only the Prime Minister should resign, then please let us know, because then we would put that down as your recommendation.

We accept Mr Barrow: if the Prime Minister is the leader of the House and if his Government falls, it falls through his leadership.

That1s our recommendation.

We feel that CHAIRMAN: Yes i another Minister might take over.

Mr Sylvestre: be asked to choose another leader.


Another House of Representatives then can <3 e> O o a - » ■ ♦ 54 CHAIRMAN: Fair enough.

Mr Barrow: Section 26 page 11.

The Governor shall act in his own discretion and in case where a Minister is unable by reason of illness or absence from Belize, the Governor- General may appoint a person who is a Member of the National Assembly to perform his functions.

Mr Sylvestre: General shall act in his own discretion.
That is saying that perhaps the Governor- Mr Barrow: That13 the question, the point.

I think that's easy for us it's No.

2, No.

3, No.

Sometimes we wonder.

to understand.

We This is down in the party Each party has it's leader, 4 in line or at The position is exactly the same as our present and after the election, the Governor-General He will know who is the leader of CHAIRMAN: understand the party system.
system, the party system in mind, and each party has least they should, is, that when,this constitution, will know who to call, the majority party, right?

party goes sick and there is a deputy Prime Minister, obviously, the first person he would call is the Deputy Prime Minister.

But look at our position right now.


The Deputy Prime Minister is not in the House of Representatives and if the Governor-General were to call him, he might say, I cannot command the majority here, I am in the Senate; you better call somebody from the House of Representatives.

So that we would go through a process of calling the senior people, the people in the party hierarchy who would, themselves, know who is their leader.
Obviously, if the leader of the Mr Barrow: That is only assuming that this would take place.

In truth this can be the chance.

It is not the colloquial, naturally; we understand that that would be the case.

But let's say for it to be in a different situation where you have more than one party in the House of Representatives, and, probably you have equal amount of members of a party or you have coalition system; what would happen then, in the case of that?
CHAIRMAN: The poor Governor-General might find himself in great difficulty because he doesn.

't know who can lead the i the House.

And we have seen this happen in France; we have seen in Italy where the man is caned to form a Government today, and he tries to form a Government and tomorrow he has to go and say I can't form one, and so, he has to try somebody else.
Mr Barrow: provisions to should arise; Don't you think there should be some form of assist the Governor-General in that case they are not to know what will happen.

if that Maybe.... CHAIRMAN: I agree, wonder what we could put.

I don't know, feel.

I certainly see your point.

I just Perhaps you have something in mind.


because it depends on how the Members of the House .■ * I was just about saying, Mr Chairman, that we Mr Ramos: had a case in Jamaica a couple years ago, where Bustamante who was the Prime Minister then, took sick and the only next man who could have controlled Government was a Senator who was Hugh Shearer.

He was a Senator at the time.

Mr Marin: died and then Hugh Shearer took over.


I don't think your facts are all right, Sangster But we have all sort of combinations of situations CHAIRMAN: and I understand your concern; what worries me is what I shall say; what shall the record show?

I can't think of a system of assisting the Governor-General.

He will just have to do it by a trial and error until he finds somebody that can form a Government.

If he can't form a Government, then the House has to be dissolved.
You'll have to have new elections.

You know what I mean.

It's one of these things that you might think today that so and so might be the next leader.

think that so and so might be the next leader, but it's a matter for the Members of the House.

prepared to follow.

If the Prime Minister die today you might They would decide who they are Mr Barrow; In that case then, we would wish to propose that both Houses of the National Assembly be consulted to see if they can find a solution.
But then if you can't get it from the House, then you have to go to election.

It's a process of consultation but it's done by the CHAIRMAN: Governor-General.

That's really what happens.


He calls one man and he tries; he calls another one and when he calls one maxi might tell him no I can't form a Government and if you call Jim Bo m-iaht bA able to form a Government b^o^se that's the man that we are looking o o !T * MM v' I' Barrow: He has to have close consultation with liembers of the House of Representatives.

Rogers: The basis of this system is in the party system itself.
If the party elects a leader and that leader is in the House, if he is elected there is no problem.

The Governor-General has to call on the leader of the party because that's the man who demands the support of the majority.

If he fails in the attempt'to form a Government, there is leader .

no doubt that the party has to meet to decide who is the The choice falls back to the party.

Barrow: What I was saying i-.r.

Minister, what in the event that you have a coalition.
Rogers: A coalition can only work if the members of the coalition decide to make it work.

The system depends on that, if it turns to a coalition; and if they don't want to form a Government they would have to go back to an election, carry it to the people.

Sylvestre: This doesn't say anything about any party in there.

All it says is who can command the majority; the Governor-General will be feeling out.

If nobody can't then we have no other alternative e but to go back to an election.
Chairman: People are ultimately supreme.

Barrow: We go to 43.

The concern here is the age limit, 18.

W e are saying that it should be 21 years.

We think 18 is too immature.

Not experienced enough.

There is another point here at Article 44.


Sylvestre: National Assembly if he is holding or acting in a public office; has 6th line "He is also disqualified from membership of the been convicted of any offence relating to elections; or belongs to any armed forces or police force; or is party to any contract with the Government of Belize" all these things you could declare as disqualified.

Gillett: What if he resigned?

© I Sylvestre: The question is, what was the contract with the Government?
Chairman: We have that in our existing law.

What it means is that if the person has a direct contract with the Government, the people should know that he has such a contract.
This should not be something 57. that is under the table because he might be seeking to be a representative for the purposes of feathering his own nest, Let's put it that way; so, if he has a direct contract with the Govern­ direct contract with ■ » -1 ' ■ o a 9 ment, for supplies of food, or supplies of tires or what the case ' or supplies of tires may be, that the people should know about that, He must declare it before the election.
Sylvestre: On Page 15, Section 4G, 5th line u or if any circumstances arise that were he not a member he would be disqualified" needs clarification, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman: I think what we're referring to is the things before, Let me read this paragraph.

Rogers: He's listing the reason for disqualification.

Chairman: And we have them in the representation of'the people's ordinance today, bankrupey, things of that nature, an offence, if he is convicted of a criminal offence.
Sylvestre: We are wondering if certain things like this could not be stated clearly.

Chairman: The intention is that they will have to be stated.

Barrow: Some of the things are not clearly spelt out so that we can understand them clearly so we need some explanation.

Chairman: We appreciate this and if there is anything in particular that you would wish to say about it, we would be happy to hear it, but we we couldn't cross all the t's and dot all the i's.

It would be a very long document.


Very very long - you might not even go through it, but there are standard things which are made clear say like arrest for a crime, bankrupey and things of this nature.

Barrow: Page 16 (51) "Of the eight Senators five shall be appointed by the Governor-General on the advice of the Prime Minister, two on the advice of tho lender of the Opposition, and one after consultation with the Belize Advisory Council."
Here our recommendations are that they should be recommended by the two parties; five by; the ruling party and three by the other party, the Opposition.

After all the Governor-General never won any election.

|r>*.

I ♦ - ' 58 Gillett: Page 20(76) "A Judge of the Supreme Court of Judicature shall vacate his office on reaching the age of 62 years, unless otherwise authorised by the Governor-General.

We don't know where that 62 came from - it's in our present Constitution - most other Constitution say 65.
Barrow: We come back hero to the basic human rights; you have here Human Rights and Fundamental Freedom, then you have protection of right to life, protection of the right of personal liberty, protection of the law, protection from inhuman treatment, protection from forced labour, protection against arbitrary search or entry, e protection of freedom of movement; you have all the other things, but we noticed you don't have the right to petition.
Chairman: You are thinking here to petition the National Assembly?

Barrow: Yes, Sir.

I noticed; I think I've heard our Deputy Premier saying that some of the basic principles embodied in the US Constitution should be enshrined in our Constitution.

And, after looking at the US Constitution-, I noticed that all these other rights are there except the right to petition.

• Rogers: And that is your submission., ♦ Chairmari: You have made a submission.
Barrow: That brings us to the end of the White Paper Sylvestre: We have a draft proposal which we would like to put forward to the Committee.
Certain things which we feel might be to the point, so that the Committee might be able to take it and adjust it the way way they feel, and it says: To the distinguished Special Select Committee of the Belize's National Assembly: "Representatives of the Belize Rural South Division hereby sincerely put forward our strongest views on articles which should be adopted in the sacred document - The Constitution of Belize.
History tells us of many countries emerging from Colonial rule to Independence which have diverted from Freedom and Democracy to Dictatorship.

One party state and a Communist State.

We are certain that the vast amount of Belizeans will support our LtfL V. 59. present way of life that is the present Freedom and Democracy which each and everyone of us enjoys.
These basic fundamental rights of our people must be so inserted in our Constitution and so protected by the Courts of our land, that no one whether now or in the future will be able to tamper with these sacred rights.
Each and every citizen must be told and they must realize every a including the Police and Armed Services that it is their duty to defend the Constitution at all times e> <3 (1) All Legislative Powers herein granted shall be rested in the National Assembly which shall consist of a Senate and a House of Representatives; (2) The House of Representatives shall consist of elected Members chosen for not more than five years; (3) The Senate shall consist of appointed members chosen by the majority party and the minority party; (4) When vacancies occur in the House of Representatives, elections shall be called in a time not exceeding two months; (5) The House of Representatives shall choose their speaker and other officers from within their members or from outside; (6) No person shall be a member of the National Assembly who has not attained the age of twenty-one years; (7) The Senate shall choose their President and other officers; (8) The times, places and manner of holding elections for the House of Representatives shall be prescribed by law, but the National Assembly may at any time by law.make or alter such Regulations; (9) The National Assembly shall meet at least once a year or according to the rules and regulations made by law according to both Houses; (10) Each House may determine the Rules of it's Proceedings; (11) Each House shall from time to time publish the same to be made available to the public; (1,2), The Senators and Representatives shall receive a compensation for their services to be ascertained by law and paid out of the Treasury of Belize.
They shall in all cases except treason, be privileged from arrest during their attendance at the Session of their respected Houses and in going to and returning from the same and for any speech or debate in either House.

They shall not be questioned in any other place; so.
(13) All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; (14) The National Assembly shall have powers to lay and collect, taxes, duties imports and excises to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of Belize.
(15) To borrow money on credit for the Government of Belize; (16) To provide for calling forth the liilitia to execute the Laws of the land; (17) No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in consequences of appropriation mady by Law, and a regular statement, and account of the receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time; (18) No person except a natural born citizen shall be eligible to the office of Prime Minister and deputy Prime Minister; (19) In case of removal of the Prime Minister from office, or of his death resignation or inability to discharge the powers and duties of the said office the same shall' devolve to the deputy Prime Minister until a new Prime Minister could be selected from amongst the Members of the House of Representatives The Bill of Rights: (1) The National Assembly shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assembly and to petition the Government for for a redress of grievances; (2) The right of the people in their persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated and no Vis-rants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.
(3) The National Assembly shall make no law suspending the no Writ of Habeas Corpus unless in case of rebellion or invasion where the public safety may require it; (4) No person shall be hold to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime unless on a presentment or indictment except in cases arising in the military service when in actual serve in time of war or public danger nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be witness against himself nor be deprive of life, liberty, property, or investments without due process of law, nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation; ■ I, J 61.
(5) In all criminal prosecution the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial duty and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation, to be confronted with witness against him, to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favour and to have the assistance.of Counsel for his defence in certain cases (e.g.

Capital); .

(6) Excessive bail shall not be required nor excessive fines imposed nor cruel and unusual punishment inflicted.
No person shall be detained in custody for longer than 24 hours without O being arrested and formal charge made; (7) The rights of the citizens of Belize to vote shall not be denied or abridged on account of race, colour or creed; (8) The National Assembly shall make no law against the rights of the citizens of Belize to appeal to the Judicial powers of the Supreme Court, and other appeal courts, any law made under this Constitution which deems to deprive the citizens of their basic fundamental rights as set out in the Constitution; , (9) The National Assembly shall make no laws to suspend the Constitution of Belize.
Ramos: That 6 on the ether page "excessive bail".

Bails should be scratched out of court.

Chairman: Bails are usually left to the descretion of the court.

•3 Gillett: That's what We mean.

Chairman: liny Member wishes to ask any question?

Rogers: It's very clear Chairman: First of all I would wish to thank you all for coming and to thank you also and your organisations for the consideration and the time you spent on the presentation.
I hope that you will go back and express the thanks of this Committee to them.

Thank you very much.

I 1 62 Miss Margaret Nogera '10 Santa Ki tn •'■oad (Citizen) Chairman i i/e are your views.

very happy to have you and could you please tell us Miss Nogera: After reading- the proposed Constitution, I guess I have more questions than proposals.
First, the Governor-General, I'd like to know his qualifications or credentials, if he'll be there before the Prine Minister but the thing- that he has to coi.ie after the Prime Minister, so I'd like you to explain this relation­ ship.

Chairman.
Chairman.

It is a problem that we are not going to have because of the provisions in here which I think is (10) provides that t.he existing National Assembly shall remain which means that the* existing Government, the whole structure of Government, will remain, even, the day after this constitution is made, so that we will have our Premier so whose name is going to be changed to Primo Minister, so that he will be available to advice dec Majesty the Guocn.

I'iiss Nogera: For this first Governor-General.


Cixt.een says that For this first Governor cneral.

■ s * the only specific thing they say about the Governor-General is that he should be a citizen of Belize.

I think there ought to oe more than that.

I'd like to know what his qualifications, in.your view, would be.

9 9 Chairman: ■le propose none.

Miss Nogera: Jhy none?


Chairman: The only is that he should be a ielizean and i£ you have any specific proposals, we would be happy td hoar then, and let me say that you would not be alone.

i/e have had proposals already about the qualifications of the Governor-General.

The assumption here is that, if I might just elaborate a little, the Primo , inister is the leader of the party chosen by the people, The people have certain confidence in him.
Miss Nogera: a Prime Minister and he will still have the power to do away with that 21fter this Governor-General is stated, he will appoint Prime minister, Isn't that.... Chairman: Theoretically yes, but practically no.

/e just went through a long exercise to explain how this thing works.

Theoretically he is r ■ * ■’ r » the head of State therefore the appointment of the Prine Minister comes from the Head of the State but in fact and it's substance, the Prine Minister is electee by the Country.
The country selects a political party and having selected that political party, the leader of that political party becomes the Prime Minister, and the Governor-General will find it very difficult to select anybody but the leader of the majority party in the House.

Hiss Nogera: Very true.

Chairman: 3o that party system Hiss Nogera: Holds.

Chairman: Holds, and would operate to select the Prime Minister.

Miss Nogera: O.K.

Why didn't they define "public emergency"?

Chairman: More closely?.'


Because the contemplation is that we are going to have a whole law on public emergency, not just a page.

If we wrote fifteen pages on public emergency alone, this document would probably be two or three hundred pages Ion., and people night not wish to read it, and we might not have people coming forward to make submissions, so we have abbreviated everything and put the salient so we points as much as possible to focus the attention of people on these points.
So, that if you have a point to bring about public emergency, I would like to hear what is your point, so .thatwhen it comes to spelling it out we can represent as nearly as possible the points of the people who have spoken to us.

..nd our own good sense, of course.

3uit I can assure you that certainly Government has felt that there is a raced for public emergency.

i.

'e recognize that these are emergencies and ca.n are only be used in very special circumstances.
..nd we have tried to indicate the circumstances as Government sees it; but we would be very happy to hear anything that you have to say about it - whether you think that we have defined them enough; whether you think they ought to be more elaborate; whether you have specific proposals to put to us on a subject.

Miss Nogera: Well, I definitely think they should be .tore defined.

I could say that much.

One thing I have, I think this number 12 (b) should be just done away with.

Chairman: 12 (b)?
Chairman: 12 (b)?

Hiss Nogera: Yes; concerning "any other person".

That should be just "shoo".

o <3 0 7 64 Chairnan: You would like that one to be done away with, right?

You are expressing a concern which we heard repeatedly, yesterday and the day before.

Hiss Nogcra: O.K.

liy other question.... Chairman: On the other hand., let me ask this question of you.
You do believe, however, that if somebody who is not born in Belize, who is a good person, a person of good character and has lived in Belize for a long time and has proved that he is of good character-, if that person wants to become a Belizean that he should have that right?

e Miss Nogera: Yes, but not five years.

Chaiman: But not five years.

Miss Nogera: Hot five years, definitely more.

Chairman: Alright.
Chairman: Alright.

Miss Higera: I heard you trying to explain point 21 to the group before me and the thing.... Chairman: You are not convinced; you are worried about it.

Hiss Nogera: Yes, This n shall not be subject to the direction or control of any person or authority."

Shouldn't he be linked....

I understand he is a person of the law.

I don't find anywhere that he is linked to the Judiciary of Belize.

Chairman: He is, you know.

Hiss Nogera: ;le is.

Chairman: Yes.

Administratively.


If you look at the first sentence, it says at the beginning "The Attorney General shall be the principal legal adviser to the Government of Belize and shall also bo responsible for the administration of legal affairs in the country, " Co, that's just exactly tae point that when he is making provisions, administrative « provisions, for the exercise of justice, you don't want him to be influenced by constituents, and so on.
but, if you still feel worried about the paragraph, we would be happy to hear what you have to say about it.

j !

■ ■ j ■ ■- * * 65 Hiss Nogera: ’Jell, since y<u have to go through explaining to me what these words exactly mean, I think you should clear that up for the whole country, you know; Chairman: That those words need elaboration.

Hiss Nogera: Definitely, and.

do you see Chairman: Hiss Nogera, let me ask you a question; it is a curious thing and I'm curious about it.
This sentence appears twice in this Unite Paper, but everybody jumps only on the Attorney General.

i/hy?

Hiss Nogera?

Why?

Chairman: 'Jell , it is also there for the Auditor, but nobody raises it about the Auditor; they raise it about the attorney General.

Miss Nogera: Well, you see he is leafing with law, and law is something that frightens a lot of people.’ You could gey yourself in jail for it.

Chairman: And you can get yourself in jail for money too.

Alright, you've answered my question.


Miss Nogera: O.K.

>Ju you see any other means of sone of those O.K.

appoints being other than just consultation of tie Prine Minister and the Governor-General going into effect?

Chairman: First of all, the question is whether you see any other, but to be honest with you on the basis of theory; on the basis of theory on the representative Government, I would not accept any other.

A Government must be able to govern.

and it is very important that the govern.


Government should have around it to carry out its policies, people whom it has confidence in, and people whom it can trust.

If it is any other way, then you are asking for inefficient and incompetent Government; that's what you are asking for.

I prefer to have a strong Government than a weak and inefficient Government.

I think that a weak Government is, perhaps, worst than a strong Government.
but, you are asking my opinion and really we are here to get your opinion.

The concept there is strange to us.because we haven't had it; we've had this long self- government, but it's not a strange position in any other country.

Nobody finds it strange that the President of the United States chooses his whole Cabinet from anywhere he likes; his advisers from anywhere he likes.

In England, Hrs.

Thatcher has just paid one man, one adviser, more than Ci O o o i 0 66 her own salary and.
perhaps two Ministers combined; nobody finds that strange; we find it strange in 'Jc-lize because we are not accustomed t > it.

Miss Nogera: O.K.

Could.

I find out This is a proposed Constitution.

your... How early will we see the Constitution after all vze see Chairman: That I couldn't predict.

I will repeat for you what I said earlier today that the Constitution is going to be an Act of the British Parliament, right?
And they are going to pass our Constitution; that's what it means to be a colony... that your Constitution is determined by your masters, right?

and that's gonna happen in our case like it has happened to every other cojntry.

We are in their administrative hands.

.

They will have to pass it using their system of Goverbment.

We can't tell them how quickly to do it.

Unfortunately, I mean I can't answer it any more can't answer it specifically than that.
It does take a long time to get a law through the British Parliament; it does take months.

.

.

Miss Nogera: I'd like to see the power of the Governor-General re-valuated.

I wondered why would he be given the power to choose the Leader of the Opposition.

Chairman: Might.

We got that.


I'-Iiss Nogera: Since you already told me the format of appointing people is better than they being elected gives for better functioning of Government, just; that I thought that I'd like to see more people elected to offices than just being appointed by the Governor-General and the Prime Minister.

Chairman: I see.

And this is where you are talking about the Permanent Secretaries and those other officials.
Miss Nogera: Yes, well including the Attorney General, Also, after these proposals are explained in detail, that is, for the whole country to understand exactly what those terms mean, is it necessary or possible that the people will still have a chance to vote for this.

Chairman: Vote for this Constitution?

No.. ft !

1 67 Hiss Nogera: No.

No way .

Chairman: No way.

liiss Nor,'era: Jhy not?

Chairman: Because we’re a Colony and we don’t Miss Nogera: After they approve, well we just have to take it.
Is that so?

Chairman: Then, that’s what we have.

If we want to change it afterwards there are provisions here for changing it.

Miss Nogera: That is after we are independent?

Chairman: Yes.

Hiss Nogera: O.K.

Chairman: Unfortunately, this is the hard facts of life.

When you are a colony, you are a colony.

That’s why we are struggling to be free.

But you have noticed the provisions in there for changing.

You are happy with those.

Miss Nogera: I could say so.


Chairman: Well, thank you very much, liiss Nogera.

V/e are very pleased that you have cotie all the way from worozal Town to speak to us, and we will note all the suggestions that you have put forward.

Miss Nogera: Thank you.

Chairman: Well, I have nobody else on my list Is there anybody else present who would wish to come forward?

n 0 « 60 Mr. N, Simpliss Belize City.

Chairman: Hello, Mr. Simpliss.

Mr. Simpliss, please take a seat.

Mr. Simpliss: Thank you, Sir.


Not becoming turbulent, Sir, but the other day, I thought I had my notes in chronological order but found afterwards that somehow, chronologically, I skipped a couple little points.

So after boundaries, I went as far as our economic zone, then I left out the air space.

Chairman: I see, alright.

We'll be happy to add air space to your Mr. Simpliss: Thank you, Sir.
Then, under military, I had also that we should indhde in our Constitution the honours and decorations for civilians and military, the army and police force.

Chairman: Are you proposing here that we should continue with the British system of honours and decorations?-Or are you proposing .

.. Mr, Simpliss: No.

our own.

Chairman: Our own.

Mr. Simpliss: Belize honour system, Chairman; Yes, sir.

Mr. Simpliss: Then, thirdly, international membership - the United Nations, the Red Cross and such the like.
Chairman: Does that include the Organization of American States?

Mr. Simpliss: Yes Chairman That's all?

Mr. Simpliss: That closes my submission.

Chairman: to clarify those points, Mr. Simpliss, and we owe you a debt of Well, thank you very, very much for coming back gratitude.

o o o o 1 * I 69 Mr. Simplies: Thank yo.u ever so much for your valuable time.

And with your arduous task, all the best.


Chairman: If there's no one else who would wish to come before the Committee* Yes, do I have two more gentlemen?

Mr. Courtenay: Please have a seat.

First of all may-I have your namei Mr. EligarioVasquez: Elizario Vasquez Mr. Courtenay: Mr. Vasquez: Elizario Vasquez, what is your address?

41 Regent Street Mr. Mr. Courtenay: 41 Regent Street ..and the o.ther gentleman David Coyi: Mr. David Coyi #4 Newtown Barracks Mr. Courtenay #4 Newtown Barracks.
Now, may I ask whether you gentlemen have come forward representing any organisation or Association, or whether you have come forward as private citizens.

Mr. Coyi: Belcast.

Well, I come personal, but we go to o Mr. Courtenay: I see, you have no authority to represent Belcast.

So you are both members of B elca'st.

Now we are very happy to hear what you have to say about the Constitution.
Mr. Coyi: I have two parts that I don't understand clearly in the White Paper — (j) Human Rights and Fundamental Freedom and (4) (i) Protection of Freedom of expression.

Mr. Courtenay: 4 (i) Protection of freedom of expression, and you say you have a problem there.

Mr. Coyi I just wanted to know the situation that « would lead to wireless broadcast being regulated.
Mr. Courtenay: Well let's start with the simple technical side of it, that you have to assigned a channel, you have to stick to your channel otherwise you will interrupt the rights of others.

So you have to regulate it.

What is more, the security of the state in arms; we should know who have radio C 70 sets and to whom they 'are speaking on those radio sets.

They might be speaking to\so.mcbody in the Capital of Guatemala.

Mr. Coyi: ’Bl 'in Belize at this moment, would this part appear right now?
the gurity of the state?

Mr.•Courtenay: It most ceS^alnty applies, oh has, right now, we have to be very conscious about,, the security of our little state.

You know we have a threat.

Mr. Coyi: I just wanted to suggest that it should be made clear when they should be regulated, ■it just says "and for regulating".
Mr. Courtenay: I agree with you, and this is certainly going to be made as a part of your submission, that you would like to see this worked out carefully, and it most certainly is going to be; I assure you, Mr. Coyi; you can't set out all the regulations here, but the .’regulations will be sot out in due time.

I Mr. Coyi: Will it appears in the Constitution itself; ' 7?

Mr. Courtenay: Well the Constitution is going to place limitations on it.
We can't clutter up our Constitution with all i the technical jargon relating to radio.

But, at the same time, the Constitution has to be so worded that the Legislature can't just pass any law, regulating broadcasting; they have to pass laws that are.

consistent with the Constitution.


Let me say to you, in drawing this, almost all exceptions for were taken from the United Nations human rights; even the rest of the world recognises’that there is a need to restrict full liberty in certain specific circumstances.

I understand your problem, you are worried, you want to know that there will be true freedom; that's your concern, isn't it say that; let us put it on our record that you are concern that there should be true liberty and freedom.
I think there is another one you are worried about Mr. Coyi.

71 Mr. Coyi: Section (k) Protection of Right to Privacy Mr. Courtenay: Section (k) Protection of right's to Privacy.

Mr. Coyi No one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful intereference, except in th-.. interests of defence, public safety, order, morality and health.

Does this mean when defence, public safety, order, morality and health are in jeopar­ o dy, or does it mean the Government has a right to unlawful intereference.
Mr. Courtenay: No it does not mean that.

What it means is that what in Peace - time would be unlawful inteference when there is difficulty and there is a security justification, the Government may hove to interfere with you, and they may have to say to you, for instance, thnt you can't even live some where because if you live there a bomb may strike you.

So that they might have to move you from "here.

They might have to ‘disrupt all your fa.mily life completely in order to protect you.
Mr. Coyi: But, this word unlawful interference it 0 o would then become lawful.

Mr. Courtemay: We do hove the problem of expression here, in that theey are talking here about the normal circumstances, i- that in the?

normal crcumstances only what is lligimately authorised by law is permissible.

Come a state of emergency and these legitimacies disappear; there are some unusual situation i£n which the Government would probably legislate by simple ordesrs.
Mr. Coyi: But the fact that these are action taken in the interest of the Government, that means that it is lawful.^ o I ■ ■ 0: / '■ ■ ■ ■ * I - .

Mr. Courtenay: I accept that'fact, that you think the word ■72 unlawful should be struckcd out.

Mr. Coyi: Yes Mr. Courtenay: Is there anything else you have, to say.
Mr. Vasquez: I have a question in this section (f) Protection Against Arbitrary Search or kntry - I would like to have this a bit clearer* Mr. Courtenay: Well, I agree with you, we have found this out ourselves that this a badly drawn paragraph.

Mr. Vasquez: The way how I understand it, that in the interest of defence, public safety, order, morality, then you are subject to arbitrary arrest.

Mr. Courtenay: That is not what we mean, and you will not find that acceptable.
What is worst, this paragraph doesn’t even specify, it begins to get into detention when the heading doesn't even talk about detention.

So this is a horrible paragraph a I accept that, and it needs clarification, it probably needs two paragraphs instead of one.

But that one has to be completely re-drafted.

Mr. Vasquez: Section (i) It seems that all these-exceptions down to the limit to freedom of expression ... it says shall have the right to freedom of expression; Is it not a bit contradictory?
Mr. Courtenay: So does the law of Liberty.

You are limit to the right of freedom of expression.

But I am sure you will agree that that should exist, because what it means is that in the question of your right to freedom, in the rights of others.

Mr. Vasquez: How docs morality comes into this?

I don't see how morality comes into this.

Mr. Courtenay: You don't see how morality comes into this.

You believe that people should be free to say anything they like.
li I I I ' i f 75 Mr, Vasguez: This doesn't specify it.

Mr. Courtenay: Doesn't protend to.

But if you would like to make some recommendations, go ahead.

Mr. Vnsquez: With Section (g) Protection of freedom of Movement, The last part "immunity against expulsion from Belize.

But I mean it doesn't state you are non national.

Mr. Courtenay: Well the immunity you are suggesting that o immunity should only be for nationals.

Mr. Vasquez: How about the non-nrtionals in this■country?
Mr. Courtenay: You are recommending that they should be expellable - then you accept it.

Mr, Vasquez: Yes Mr. Courtenay: You feel that a non-national should be capable of expulsion.

then we will certainly put that down as your views, Mr. Vasquez, don't feel alone, a lot of people has told us that - probably hundreds.

Mr. Vasquez: Where it says about Belizean moving about the country, we have some non nationals in the country, I mean then you don't have anything to say about them.
Mr. Courtenay: We do not, and so we would like to know whether you.would like to say something about it and.what you would like to see., Mr. Vasquez: immunity.

I think the non-nationals should not have the Mr. C'ourtenay: Right, we shall so record that, that is your point of view.

Mr. Vasquez: Section 6, say for example, we have a hurricane or we have a big fire, you think that will justify the Government to suspend the rights of the people at that time.

a i 4 o t •ij .
a i 4 o t •ij .

I ■■ >• a, ¥ ’ ■ 74 Mr. Courtenay* It might very well bo, you might have to restrict your freedom of movement; you can't allow people to go and loot other peoples property, you might have to protect the property, we might h vc to protect your properties and prevent others from moving at night in the dni'k.

That’s what contemplating you, don't think that is right, you are free to say so.

Mr. Vasquez: What is there to satisfy the Governor General that a state of emmergency exist.
Mr. Courtenay: Under many reasons, if you look at 8 you will see that there are some suggestions of (a) it says that it may ve made if he is satisfied of the imminent of a state.of war or that an emergency exists as a result of a hurricane, flood, earthquake, fire, outbreak of pestilence or infectious disease, or other calamity; (b) that action or the threat of action by any person of such a nature or on so extensive a scale as to endanger the public sa.fety or deprives the community, or a substantial portion thereof, of supplies or services essential to life.
Let in take a' str'ike on the Water Front, and people .are starving.

You don't thi_nk the Government ought to break-the strike and go and.

unload tine food and so people can eat.

Mr. Vasquez; No, but then you state that you.have a right to freeedom.

Mr. Courtenay: Yes, sure , and in the exercise of the right to freedom yoou starve the country; do you believe that that is right.

A hundred men on the V/ater Front, have a right to starve the whole community just because they are exercising their right to.
.strike.

Do you think that is fair and do you think that the law should aHlow that.

They can strike, but the men can go and unloa.d the v-shicle.

Mr. Vasquez: Who would unload it, they?

Mr. Courtenayy The Government, 75 Mr. Vasguez I was thin1 >>g y0U SP.y they can strike, Mr x • .• <?

our t e nay :■ str’ -Sure-'tEeyucan strike^ bhttl-jush give you that as one example.

Where the community could be prejudice, the whole community could be prejudice.
Let' s soy a disease like cholera breakes out in Belize; you think the people'of Belize City be allow to go to Corozal and spread the disease Mr. Vasguez: No, not in that case.

there?

o Mr. Courtenay: Exactly, you will have to deprive them of their freedom and tell them you can't move, you can't leave the city.

Many emergencies which could arise and those aremaking provisions for these emergencies.

Mr. Vasguez: How this Section 11 - CITIZENSHIP.


Have you any provision there for the naturalized persons before Independence?

Mr. Courtenay: Yes, that is an omission.

It must be incouded and you would like to see them included, as well.

Any other ■ problems you have that you would like to say something about.

Mr. Vasguez: That's all Mr. Courtenay: That's all?

Well, Mr. Vasguez, and Mr. Coyi I want to say thank you both for coming forward and expressing w o your concern.
Mr. Vasguez: Suppose I'-ter on you come up with something later on and you want to write, what is the deadline for it?

Mr. Courtenay: Well, at the moment there is no deadline,.

This committee has been instructed to consider the White Paper and to Report to the house it views.

The Committee will not finish its work when it is finish with the business.

We have thousand and thousand of work to - finish and go through, so that doing that we can still have additional views So I can't give you a date.
It might take 2 weeks or while we are expressed.

three weeks.

- 76 - So we can still write a letter.

So I will be happy about receiving that Mr. Vasguez: Mr. Courtenay- letter.

Mr. Courtenay: Now - is there anyone else who wish to come forward to the Committee?

Yes, Mr. Cuellar - come Mr. Cuellar Yes Mr. Chairman I would like to present my A submission.

Mr. Courtenay And your address Mr. Cuellar?

Mr. Cuellar 45 Corner West Canal and Orange Street.

Mr. Courtenay: And you represent anything?


Mr. Cuellar Representing the People*s United Party as itsSecretary General.

Mr. Courtenay: Let me hear what the.. People'-s United-Party has to say?
Mr. Cuellar: The People's United Party, Mr. Chairman on the 15th February, 1981, held a Special National Convention in Belmopan at the Agriculture Showground^ where some 7,000 delegates comprising the 18 Constituencies of Belize spoke with one solid voice given the People's United Party the direct mandate and guidance towards the Proposed Constitution for an Independent Belize.

In that this special Convention a Resolution was taken, I would like now to give copies to this Committee of that Resolution.
Mr. Chairman I asked if you could grant me th permission to read the resolution for the purpose of the records.

RESOLUTION PASSED BY THE PEOPLE'S UNITED PARTY SPECIAL CONVENTION ON GOVERNMENT'S WHITE PAPER HELD IN THE BELMOPAN SHOWGROUNDS ON SUNDAY, 15 FEBRUARY 1981 The People's United Party Convention, Having considered Government's White Papr on the proposed terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize.
- - 77 - Noting that the said White Paper accepts the supremacy of God and the brotherhood of all Belizeans; seeks to preserve and protect our human rights and fundamental freedoms in a free, democratic and independent Belize; and strives to broaden social justice, equality of opportunity and respect for the rule of law; also noting the general wish for the inclusion of the Belizean prayer, flag and anthem in the Independence Constitution; Firmly believing that now more than ever we must struggle to ensure that 1981 is the year of our safe and secure independence with.all our territory; that our independence will be a driving force for more development and prosperity; and that we can rely upon the high sense of responsibility of the British government and people to provide an<adequate defence guarantee to make Belize safe and secure; Extending once again the hand of friendship to the Guatemalan people and requesting their government to respect our right to self-determination and territorial integrity; RESOLVE'S (1) that the Special Convention of the People’s United Party gives sure support to government's White Paper as a sound and authentic basis for the new constitution for the Independent Belize and (2) to express its confidence that the Joint Select Committee of the National Assembly will faithfully canvass and reflect the will of the Independence Constitution of Belize.
Mr. Chairman, this I hereby submit today, to the Joint Select Committee.

Courtenay: wish to thank you for taking out your time to come toward us.

Thank .you very much - Mr. Secretary General and we John Michael Munoz 77 Pickstock street.

Chairman» And you appear on behalf of any organization?

o o o —Vt BT - 78 - Munoz: No, No, Sir.


There ,ire two questions I'd like to know more about, meaning like, like, this Governor G..neral; what kind of person he would -be; he'd be appointed by the Queen or by the Premier, when w.. finish with Independence or things like that.

Chairman: The idea is here in the proposals, if you look' it paragraph 16, he will be appointed by the Queen, the Queen will not appoint just anybody.

Munoz: Meaning that he will be a Belizean subject?


Chairman: He will be We propose th t he should be a Belizean.. Munoz: Well that's how I saw it too, 'that's what I wanted to know.

Chairman: You support that.

The Queen's choice after she has discussed the matter with the Prime Minister.

Munoz: Well you know, more or 1 ss they would hav.

sent someone else to play the role of the G..-v..rnor-Guncr'.1, so it will be a Belizean?

person born in Belize ,sh 11 become citizen of.


Belize, On citizenship at the day of independence, every So every person born outside Belize whose parent becomes a citizen on independence day of would have so become but for death" what does that actually put forward to you.

Chairman: First of all it means that every person born in Belize is a Belizean.

At the moment he is not a Belizean.

At the moment he is a citizen of the United Kingdom and colonies.

Munoz: He is a British Subject?


Chairman: That's right, and on the day of Independence he will become a Belizean.

It also means that the .... ..child of a Belizean parent will also become a Belizean.

Munoz: Meaning that ......... ChairmanIf your father and mother are Belizean, .and you born in Mexico, you are entitled to become a Belizean.

Suppose ;.. Munoz: If I .am even in Mexico.


Courtenay: Well, yes you are entitled to become a Belizean and suppose your father and mother were Belizean but they died, that child would still have an entitlement.

Munoz: Meaning like on my behalf right; how I don't hove my mother nor my father here only me, right, so therefore, they have different nationality now, I guess.

And if they come' back, they can also regain this nationality, right?
- 79 - Chairman: That doesn't matter, on the day of Independence you entitled to become a Belizean.

Munoz: And if they come back, they can '.Iso regain their nationality?

Chairman: Oh, yes!

j Mr. Munoz: How about number 12, it explains the same thing, right?

Chairman: Now, number 12 is slightly different.

Number 12 is giving to people who normally would not be Belizeans, Belizean o citizenship on Independence Day.

Munoz: Only on the day.


Chairman: Yes, because afterwards you would have to go to article 13, I think; the spouse of a Belizean citizen is entitled to become a Belizean.

Again that's an entitlement.


And then there ' is also this other provision at which a lot of people have critized but it is here and the proposal there is that suppose somebody have been living here for five ye^rs, he would be entitled on independence day to Belizean citizenship, n foreigner can only get Belizean citizenship on independence day if he has been living here for five years before independence Day.

Munoz: Even though I married to an American or anybody right.
They did not born here, I could .always claim citizenship for them.

So in other words tie person would have to be married, right C3 O - different.

Chairman: Yes - if the person is married yes, then that is a different matter, then you claim it by marriage, not by resident.

Munoz: How about this "Prime Minister II and "Premier", what1s the change with those two words.. .

.

.

Chairman: Actually, the change is only to signify independence.

Munoz: So there is a big difference on those two words.
Chairman: Actually no!

Actually it means that he is the leader of © the government and when you arein a colonial status, he is called "A Premier".'

Once you become independent, under this system, he is called "A Prime Minister".

But he is still the head of the Government.

r** - » ■4 - 80 - Munoz: Yes, he still plays the same role, right?

Chairman: Right.

Munoz: I see a part hero, on,paragraph 30 "There shall be a leader of the Opposition who shall be appointed by the Governor General."
Meaning that he would just appoint somebody?

Chairman: No!

Munoz; The person will have to run'for elections, right?

■ Chairman: Yes!

Munoz: Meaning, the leader of the Opposition right now if they don't really ckeck him out to put him in the house he could always be-removed from his position as Leader of the Opposition, right?

Chairman: Yes, right* That's exactly what would happen there.

First of all, let's take for example the normal situation.
The normal situation is that the Leader of the Opposition Party wins a seat.

If he wins a seat the Governor General will call him and appoint him Leader of the Opposition, Munoz: Meaning that if the Leader don't win Chairman: But if he does not win then the Governor-General has to select someb'ody else.

Munoz: If three win then; he will appoint one out of the three, the one he likes Chairman: No!

it won't be the one he likes, It's going to be the one that can le.

ad the other two right.


Munoz: The one- that can lead the other two will be the Leader.

Chairman: It’s., the one that can lead the other two who wfl.1 be the Leader of :the Opposition.

81 - I lunoz: This Governor-General power, who actual 1 J gives hin the power to have all these sayings, to do such things.

Chairman: Again the proposal here is that he will have <o power, he will have no power, all the powers that he will exercio,.

obeying the Ministers.

liunoz: From the smallest right up to the top.


Chairman: From the smallest up to the top, in other words, if he is going to do something in lealth, he is going to obey the Minister of .lealth.

If he is going to do something in Jorks, he is going to obey the Minister of Works, if he is going to do something in lome Affairs, he is going to obey the Minister of Home Affairs.

liunoz: He can't propose something to the Prime Minister.

Chairman: Obviously, he can propose so icthing to the Prime Minister.
Obviously if he thinks somethin;; is wrong he can discuss it, but : he has ultimately, ultimately in the end, he has to obey, That is his position.

Say, he makes a proposal that he thinks that maybe Munoz: the Ministers in the louse in the ruling party right, not really one of di play di role whe he should a di play right, he put it to the Premier, that he think he should a get rid a da minister de right; you think that da something-, a nice proposal for him personally to state.
Chairman: It would be a very dangerous thing for him to do.

But he might feel compelled to do so.

He might feel that he should do so and if he feels, and he feels so strongly, obviously he's going to do it and obviously the Prime Minister will take very seriously what he has to say, -tire Prime minister is not bound to do anything about it.

Cut what would probable, is that if the Prine Minister didn't listen to hin, he would resign.
liunoz: meaning if you are elected by people, the people can't move you right?

Jell, the people can move you.

.

'ell liunoz!

they put you and they can move you right?

Jell I mean like till election time.if they vote you again, right, but then again.

Chairman: They can't, move yon until the people move you.

o 0 5 - *■ - r. I i o O O w o 32 Munoz: That's the way 1 wanted to put it, the Prime Minister can't move a Minister from his office?
Chairman: .le can move a Minister from the Ministry, but he cannot move him from being a representative.

i .unoz: You have something like 1'5 in the .iouse from the ruling party and 5 for the Opposition.

Stating that the Premier have to move on.

one a unnu now, he can't just do that; well, a mean with independence now, a mean a unnu right, le can't nove you now if so he has the mind.

Chairman: Out of the .louse no.

The people will have to decide that.

He will have to go to elections.


Only the people can remove a representative, only the people.

Munoz: So only we have the power.

Chairman: Only tne people have the power.

i.unoz: Jith Independence, meaning like we get independence before we how you all have been spending right now, everything will change in the louse?

Chairman: No, The House will remain just the sane for its life, for its natural life which is five years.

After five years it would go out of office and then this new thing will come in.
That1s the proposal here.

i .unoz: '..'ell you know - so the douse remain well I feel a kind a way towards it because I'd like to know if we are getting independence with an agreement with military aid from other countries right?

Is that the agreement?

Chairman: ./ell, You're going t hear that annouceuent in due course.

..'hen it is finalized the public is going to be told obviously.

.

unoz: This hite Paper was something actually sent?

Courtenay: No, Ho.

This is our government that put that up.


I :unoz: say.

Leaning you all just put these into words and see how we will I don't have much to say about it, but would want to know more about the military aid, right?

about independence right?

If I go sleep M f ' .• ■ .

■< ' --- -3 - 83 tonight, and in the morning on the 7:00 o'clock I hear Belize has been granted independence, and an hour afterwards, I see plane fly ever and I see di drop bomb oVer my house, i wouldn't be satisfied that is true.
Chairman: well an x can say annul.

cnac xxrsi ox an is that your say about’ that first of all is that Jell all I can Job relates to this white x’aper.

That's our job right now.

As That's our job right now.

Ministers of Government, obviously we like how you have concern for the defence of our country, and I an assuring you now that before independence you are going to know well ahead of time, what the defence is going to be.

I give you that assurance, personally, right.'


1 liuf.oz: i/e no want to be like the fly that pone in a the spider's web.

Chairman: I feel just like you.

liunoz: All right.

Chairman: Thank you very much for coming in.

dell if no one else wishes to come forward, I will declare this Sitting adjourned to i onday the 2nd march in meliiopan, at nine o'clock in the morning.

o o ■ ■ o o .

’1 Lois M. Young L.L.B.

(Hons) Lond.

Solicitor and Barrister No.

89 North Front Street Belize City, Belize.


APPENDIX C-l P.O.

Box 565 Tel.

2286 20 February, 1981 The Chairman Joint Select Committee Dear Sir, Attached hereto are my suggestions for improvement to and proposals for inclusion in the Constitution for the Independent Belize.

I would like to state that the time allowed for suggestions from the public is far too short.

I received a copy of the proposed draft on January 30th 1981.
There is hot adequate time to fully assimi­ late the draft and to properly research arguments necessary to bolster my suggestions.

r However, so as not to be left behind, I respectfully submit my comments.

Yours faithfully, SGD.

LOIS M. YOUNG BARROT : • ■ 5 r •i « The Joint Select Committee to consider the White Paper on the Proposed terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize.
Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms Paragraph 4 (i and 4 (j ) contain provision for the regulation of public "morality".

This term should be deleted as the Government should not be the guardian of public morality.

"Reasonably required" should also be inserted in Paragraph b (i) to serve as a buffer against potentially abusive or unduly restrictive laws.

PUBLIC EMERGENCIES Paragraph 7 (c) be of the type to be carried by a simple majority.
It is respectfully suggested that a (2/3) two the resolution herein should not thirds majority would be more acceptable.

Paragraph 9•• It is respectfully submitted that this resolution should also be stated as being carried by a two thirds majority.

In addition, the period of six months is excessive.

Rather, a period of three months is suggested with power by a special resolution to extend for two monthly periods.

CITIZENSHIP r Paragraph 12 (a): citizenship.

venience.
venience.

Mere marriage should not award This will invite marriages of con- Paragraph 12 (b); A person should be both continu­ ously resident and domiciled in Belize for a period exceeding five years.

It is suggested that ten years be fixed because there are many people who reside continuously in Belize for five years on a work contract basis.

manence.
manence.

Ten years would indicate more per- THE EXECUTIVE It is suggested that it be stated that Paragraph 18: the Cabinet not exceed a certain proportion of the members of the National Assembly.

The reason for that is that there should be sufficient members not in the Cabinet to scrutinize Cabinet decisions.
(2) THE BELIZE ADVISORY COUNCIL Paragraph 33; Since the National Assembly will sit for five years ( paragraph ^5) at which point General Elections will be held, it is untenable to have members of the Belize Advisory Council appointed for a period in excess of five years.

The Belize Advisory Council will obviously have a decisive role to play in areas of vital national interest.
That being the case, provision should be made for Opposition representation on the Council, is suggested that three members be from the ruling party and three from the Opposition party, with the Governor General having a deciding vote.

The paragraph does not state that the members should be members of the National Assembly, so that it is assumed that they shall be from the private sector.

This should be clarified.


It THE SENATE Paragraph 53: It should be stated upon whose advise the Governr General will act in declaring the seat of Senator vacant.

PO'lERS, PROCEDURES AND PRIVILEGES No amendment should be made to the Constitution whether it be to the provisions relating to Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, the House of Representatives, the Judiciary, or otherwise, without a referendum.
THE JUDICIARY Paragraph 7 5: The Chief Justice should definitely not be appointed by the Governor General on the advise of the Prime Minister.

Tied in with this is the ambiguous nature of the Jidicial and Legal Services Commission.

This Commission should be separate from the Public Services This Commission and its composition clearly stated.

Commission should be comprised of appointees by the Government and by the Leader of the Opposition, equally.
The office of the Chief Justice should not be a political appointment.

As it stands in the draft, it will be.

Likewise, the appointment of Puisne Paragraph 7 6: Judges should not require the concurrence of the Prime Minister because this gives him the power to veto any appointment he may not like.

St- (3) Paragraph 79: The Court of Appeal should not be appointed on the advice of the Prime Minister.
It should be clearly stated from whence the appointments will be made, ie will the Court of Appeal be appointed from abroad or from the existing Bench.

I feel strongly that the Court of Appeal should be appointed by the Legal Services Commission.

Paragraph 80: Judge of the Court of Appeal.

It is not ciar who may remove a Presumedly, if such Judges are appointed by the Legal Services Commission, they can be removed by the same body.
However, it may be wise to have the said Commission act in conjunction with the Belize Advisory Council and jointly advise the Governor General to remove the subject.

But I see no reason to involve Her Majesty the Queen providing the Legal Services Commission and the Belize Advisory Council contain Members who represent both the Government and the Opposition.

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS I feel very strongly that the Director of Public Prosecutions should not be a political appointee.
As it stands, he is.

The Director of Public Prosecution should be a civil servant appointed by the Legal Services Commission.

This office is a sensitive one and the duties thereof should be carried out impartially and without the possibility of political pressure being brought to bear on the holder.

PROTECTION OF EXISTING LAWS This should be a positive statement.
Paragraph 10> It shoid read that "Laws existing and in force in Belize at the commencement of the constitution will continue to be valid and enforceable".

i ■ APPENDIX C-2 February 21, 1981 The Clerk National Assembly B.3LFDPAN Dear Sir, First of all it is only fitting that big congratulation be extended to the Ministers and officers who prepared this White Paper.

'ile are proud of the structure in which this White Paper is presented.
It is democratic and none communistic terms and only be for the good of the Belizean people.

We are very fortunate to be living in Belize at a titre when a very important document as this is being prepared.

This is a very historic time for us.

Our support for the White Paper and our leaders is 100%.

After reading the White Paper, compliment you on:- there is a few terms we would like to Term No.
3 This is very good and we are aware of the freedom we will enjoy especially the female are sure that they have a hearing in our Country.

Term No.

16 Everyone is very curious vzho this nan will be.

Term No.

1?

We are sure that this great nan will be our one and only leader, George Cadle Price.

Term No.

30 Only in a Democratic country does the leading party accept the idea of an opposition party.

Term No.

81 Appeals to Her Majesty in Council, good one.

This is a Term No.
This is a Term No.

90 We have heard that there was a saying when independence come all who are receiving pension, will be cut off from their pension.

Then this article corrects this fallacy.

Term Nos.

93-94 The Consolidated Revenue Fund and the Minister responsible for finance.

These terms our country will rely on considerable to keep our nation going.

We know that our leaders will do a successful job of it.
Finally, may we suggest a few items that can be put in the White Ehpers- A term on the use of the National Anthem A term on the use of the National Prayer A term on the use of the Belizean Hag.

That these be used to the fullest extent by us Belizean with dignity, pride and respect in the Country of Belize and also when we Belizean represent the Country abroad.

Sincerely, SOD.

GLORIA McEIELD from P.U.P., Freetown Division !

!


/ f l I jg' I * 4 * 1 APPENDIX C-3 PREAMBLE It is thought desirable that the constitution of a country should be a document which reflects the ultimate decision of the country on the manner and the form in which it should be governed.

It should be regirded by all as stable, enduring and sacred.

Further, it should incorporate, at the time of its framing, the terms of any system of government which it is envisioned the country will ultimately adopt.
There have been more than broad hints from the.

highest level of government that the proposed constitution, as described in the government's ’’Jhite Paperj will not long hereafter be amended to accommodate a departure from the present monarchial system of government.

For this reason, it is my respectful contention that a lot of controversy, apprehension, and public energy and money will be sived by doing now - fully - what by piecemeal will later be recognised as necessary.
In this light, it has been thought fit to offer the following proposals.

AN OUTLINE FOR A PROPOSED INDEPENDENCE CONSTITUTION FOR BELIZE INTRODUCTORY The White Paper assumes a monarchial system of 1. government.

It is my basic proposition that this country needs a republican system with a Chief Executive who is head of state as well as head of government, and is assisted by an Executive body.
Historically, the publican system, which presently prevails elsewhere, does not operate in third world countries for the reason that the traditions which exist in the model are not indigenous to those regions.

Popular vote should determine the choice of the 2.

Chief Executive, exclusively.

He should be eligible for election for only two terms of office of four years duration each.

Likewise, both chambers of the National Assembly 3. should be elected.
The Senate should be of lesser power and would serve the role of providing a balance.

An appointment from either chamber to the Executive would be permissible, but would automatically result in the holder of the appointment vacating his seat.

THE SUPREMACY OF THE CONSTITUTION This document should be the supreme law of 4. the country.

All other authority should be subject to it.

The -provisions of any law inconsistent with the constitution should be of no effect.
The constitution should be a rigid one, with a prescribed formula directing the manner in which it may be amended.

Amendment should be effective only with the 5. vote of 85 per cent of the total membership of both houses.

As regards the amendment of any of the human rights provisions, this should only be effective with the vote of 90 per cent of the total membership of both houses, $ J (2) THE JUDICIARY .
The Judiciary should be presided over by a Chief Justice who would be the paramount judicial officer.

He should hold office until he attains the retirement age unless he commits any breach of the constitutional provisions.

?• by both houses, together with his peers.

The question of his removal should be determined 8.

Chief Justice in running the Supreme Court.


The other judges would be the assistants of the The court should havo jurisdiction to review the 9. legality and constitutionality of legislative and administrative actions.

10.

The court should have power of direct review and be capable of acting without waiting for a dispute, involving the specific question of the legality or constitutionality of a particular lav/ or action to come before it, to be resolved.

11.
11.

The court should also be competent to give advice to the Executive and Legislative branches of government on any matter involving the interpretation of the law and the constitution.

ATTORNEY GENERAL 12.

This should be a nominated post, and a part of the Executive.

He would be the chief legal adviser to the government.
He would also be charged with bringing criminal proceedings before the court, and also of directing any investigation into the legality or propriety of the actions of any individual, body, or authority.

In carrying out his functions he should only be subject to such limitations as are contained in the constitution.

THE EXECUTIVE 13.

The Executive should be appointed on the basis of competence - from whatever walk of life - by the Chief Executive.

1^.
1^.

No appointment to the Executive should take effect unless and until it is referred by the National Assembly to a joint committee of both.houses and the said committee approves the said appointment.

15.

Its numbers should not exceed one-third of the total number of both houses, not including the Chief Executive.

CIVIL SERVICE 16.

Save for heads of departments and permanent secretaries, this branch of government should be under.
the supervision and control of the Public Service Commission, and both civil servants and members of the Public Service Commission should be non-politically appointed.

17.

Heads of departments and permanent secretaries should be selected by the Executive and be answerable to it.

■ 18.

A head of any department involving the collection of revenue or the auditing of major expenditure should get, in addition to his full salary, a tax-free responsi­ bility allowance of not less than one-third of his salary.
PROPOSED AMENDMENTS TO THE WHITE PAPER Section 18 - Add, at the end, that "The number of the members of the Cabinet, not including the Prime Minister, shall not consist of more than one-third of the total membership of both houses."

Add, at the end of the first sentence, a Section 33 - new sentence as follows: Advisory Council one-third of their number shall be drawn from the Senate."
"Of the members of the Belize Section 50 - Delete, and substitute the following: "(a) There shall be nine members of the Senate.

The Senate shall consist of elected members.

One member shall be elected for and by two adjoining electoral divisions as presently constituted.

(b) No person shall be qualified for election to the Senate unless he has previously been a candidate for a political office either at the national or municipal level.
(c) After two elections from the date of independence, no person shall be qualified for election to the Senate unless he has previously been elected to office either at the national or municipal level. "

Section 58(a) - Shall be amended as follows: substitute for the words "two-thirds" the words "eighty-five per cent".

Section 58(b) - for the words " Shall be amended as follows: substitute three-quarters" the words "ninety per cent".
_______ _ Delete, and substitute, "A Judge of the Section 77 Supreme Court shall hold office, during good behaviour, until he attains the age of retirement, unless he shall sooner become unable to perform his functions.

He shall be removed from office only upon a resolution approved by 90 per cent of the total membership of both houses."

NOTE: The same holds true as regards the tenure of office and the removal of the Director of Public Prosecutions, under Section 83.
Section 98 - Delete, and substitute, "The Auditor General shall hold office, during good behaviour, until he attains the age of retirement, unless he shall sooner become unable to perform his functions.

He shall be removed from office only upon a resolution approved by eighty-five per cent of the total members of both houses."

SGD.

A.S. JOHNSON Appendix Pickstock Division, 52 Cor.

Pickstock Street & Lovely Lane, Belize City, BELIZE, Central America.
RESOLUTION HAVING studied and examined Government's White Paper, the Proposed ■‘■erms of a Constitution for the INDEPENDENT BELIZE and, RECOGNIilNG the need through social justice for a progressive document, one which will have to satisfy the needs of every Belizean man, woman and child, regardless of political beliefs and, REBOuNI'ilNG also, that the present and past Governments of Belize have been consistent in preserving the principles of Christian Democracy and guaranteeing now the preservation of fundamental freedoms and luman Rights, regardless of race, place of origin, political opinions, colour, creed or sex, AND on behalf of the people of the Pickstock Division, BE IT aESOiuVED that the White Paper, the Proposed Terms of a Constitution for the INDEPENDENT BELIZE be adopted at this -■ historic occassion.
o o 9 t Appendix C- 5 Orlando Magana 3^ Lakeview St., Belize City.

Chairman Joint Select Committee.

Dear Sir, In my opinion, the Governnaat Service should be free from corruption.

In order to prevent corruption, frustration, unhappiness, and stagnation, I am asking that the following be considered in the Constitution:- (1) (a) (b) (e) (i) (a) (e) (f) (g) (i) (h) (i) Prevention of Nepotism in the Government Service< Limit to the number of family members who can work in any one Department.
If more than one family member work in the same Department, then, only one can hold any administra­ tive post - only one can be a warrant holder - only one can be granted authority to expend money on the Government’s behalf.

That the Government extend and expand the powers of the Audit Department so that sound checks can be made on the spending of money by warrant holders!
all expenditure must be properly represented in terms goods, example, spending erect fence, yet no fence erected; spending to buy cans yet cans not included on inventory.

Where items are not included on inventory, then Officer should be quiried (sic).

That the Office of the Ombudsman check into the frustration and discontent of junior officers, and new senior officers.
Officers in charge of Districts should employ workers from same Districts to do manual labour, tradesman's work and any other employment necessary.

At no time should the administrative officer employ family from his Districts or other Districts.

That the races of Belize be equally represented in every Department, at all levels, administrative, field officer to labourer, given to any one race.
Preference should not be Limit the number of immigrants, refugees, that enter the Country, for purpose of residence, in any one year.

Visitor's should adhere strictly to the law of the land in cases of breach of law their property should be confiscated, sold and used to compensate for damages done.

The person should then be deported for good.

That women rights be highly respected, after all we were all Drought into this world by a woman.
That Ministers of Government, members of the House Representatives (including oppositing)(sic), members of Senate, Justices of Peace be asked to resign or relieved of ~heir post, if found indulging in traffic of drugs encouraging abortion, misuse of public funds or involved in any type of criminal act, whether as the accomplice or the person who commits such an offense.

(2) Mr. Chairman, I am fully supporting the White Paper.

Honourable Chairman, thanks for the opportunity to express my views.
Respectfully, SCO.

Orlando Magana Appendix C-6 To Chairman, Joint Select Committee of the National Assembly of Belize canvassing for Government's White Paper on the proposed terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize.

a Sir, o On behalf of the Community of Isabella Bank Village (Belize Rural North), I hereby extend my approval and full support to the above-mentioned White Paper put forward by our Government.

Sincerely your's SGD.

(HORACE D. HULSE) Chairman Isabella Bank Village Council.
a c. c. Hon.

Premier, Mr. G.C.

Price Hon.

Rep. Mr. F.H.

Hunter 4 ■*- Appendix C-7 Bermudian Landing Village, Belize District.

25th February» 1981.

4 To Chairman, Joint Select Committee of the National Assembly canvass­ ing for Government's White Paper on the proposed terms of a Constitution for the Independent Belize.
Sir, On behalf of the Community of Bermudian Landing Village (Belize Rural North), I extend to you and the members of your committee my approval and full support to the above-mentioned White Paper put forevzard (sic) by our Government.

Respectflly Your's t- o SGD.

ISAAC E. JONES) Chairman, Bermudian landing Village Council, Belize District.

c. c. Hon.

George C. Price ( Premier) Hon.

Fred Hunter (Area Rep.) I t