Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1694857582467.pdf (Botswana)
EMERGENCY MEETING (FINANCIAL ACTION TASK FORCE (FATF) BILLS) WEDNESDAY 02 FEBRUARY 2022 MIXED VERSION HANSARD NO: 204 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon.

Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP.

DEPUTY SPEAKER Hon.

P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP.

(Tonota) Clerk of the National Assembly Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly Acting Learned Parliamentary Counsel Assistant Clerk (E) His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP.

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP.


(Boteti West) CABINET - President - Vice President - Ms B. N. Dithapo - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe - Ms K. Kokoro - Mr R. Josiah Hon.

K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP.

(Molepolole South) - Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Administration Hon.

K. T. Mmusi, MP.

(Gabane-Mmankgodi) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon.

Dr L. Kwape, MP.

(Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon.

K. K. Autlwetse, MP.


(Specially Elected) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon.

K. S. Gare, MP.

(Moshupa-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Hon.

P. K. Kereng, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation and Tourism Hon.

Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP.

(Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon.

T.M.

Segokgo, MP.

(Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon.

K. Mzwinila, MP.
K. Mzwinila, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Hon.

T. M. Rakgare, MP.

(Mogoditshane) - Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development Hon.

A. M. Mokgethi, MP.

(Gaborone Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon.

P. O. Serame, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon.

F. M. M. Molao, MP.

(Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Hon.

Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP.


(Tati East) Hon.

L. M. Moagi, MP.

(Ramotswa) - Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology - Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Energy Security Hon.

M. Kgafela, MP.

(Mochudi West) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Hon.

M. R. Shamukuni, MP.

(Chobe) - Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Development Hon.

E. M. Molale, MP.

(Goodhope-Mabule) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development Hon.
D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP.

(Gaborone South) - Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Administration Hon.

S. N. Modukanele, MP.

(Lerala -Maunatlala) Hon.

T. Monnakgotla, MP.

(Kgalagadi North) Hon.

M. M. Pule, MP.

(Mochudi East) Hon.

M. S. Molebatsi, MP.


(Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development - Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development - Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development - Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Security Hon.

S. Lelatisitswe, MP.

(Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness Hon.

N. W. T. Makwinja, MP.

(Lentsweletau-Mmopane) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education Hon.

B. Manake, MP.
B. Manake, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Hon.

H. B. Billy, MP.

(Francistown East) Hon.

A. Lesaso, MP.

(Shoshong) - Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES Names Constituency Hon.

L. Kablay, MP.

(Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party) Hon.

Dr U. Dow, MP.

Hon.


P. Majaga, MP.

Hon.

M. Balopi, MP.

Hon.

J. S. Brooks, MP.

Hon.

C. Greeff, MP.

Hon.

T. Letsholo, MP.

Hon.

T. F. Leuwe, MP.

Hon.

T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP.

Hon.

Dr T. Matsheka, MP.

Hon.

S. N. Moabi, MP.

Hon.

P. K. Motaosane, MP.

Hon.

O. Regoeng, MP.

Hon.

J. L. Thiite, MP.


Specially Elected Nata-Gweta Gaborone North Kgalagadi South Gaborone Bonnington South Kanye North Takatokwane Gaborone Central Lobatse Tati West Thamaga-Kumakwane Molepolole North Ghanzi North OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon.

D. Saleshando, MP.

(Leader of the Opposition) Hon.

M. G. J. Motsamai, MP.


(Opposition Whip) Maun West Ghanzi South Selebi Phikwe West Mahalapye East Sefhare-Ramokgonami Ngami Okavango Maun East Bobonong Selebi Phikwe East Palapye Nkange Mahalapye West Francistown West Hon.

D. L. Keorapetse, MP.

Hon.

Y. Boko, MP.

Hon.

Dr K. Gobotswang, MP.

Hon.

C. K. Hikuama, MP.

Hon.

K. K. Kapinga, MP Hon.

G. Kekgonegile, MP.

Hon.

T. B. Lucas, MP.

Hon.

K. Nkawana, MP.

Hon.

O. Ramogapi, MP.

Hon.

Dr N. Tshabang, MP.

Hon.

D. Tshere, MP.

Hon.


M. I. Moswaane, MP.

Hon.

T. S. Khama, MP.

Hon.

L. Lesedi, MP.

Hon.

B. Mathoothe, MP.

Hon.

M. Reatile, MP.

(Botswana Patriotic Front) Serowe West Serowe South Serowe North Jwaneng-Mabutsane Hon.

W. B. Mmolotsi, MP.
W. B. Mmolotsi, MP.

Francistown South (Alliance for Progressives) TABLE OF CONTENTS EMERGENCY MEETING (FINANCIAL ACTION TASK FORCE (FATF) BILLS) WEDNESDAY 02 FEBRUARY, 2022 CONTENTS PAGE (S BUSINESS MOTION.........................................................................................................................................42-49 GOVERNMENT BILL Societies Bill, 2021 (No.
38 of 2021) Committee Stage...............................................................................................................................................1-41 Wednesday 2nd February, 2022 THE ASSEMBLY met at 2:00 p.m. (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) P R A Y E R S * * * * ASSEMBLY IN COMMITTEE (CHAIRPERSON in the Chair) SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) (MR SKELEMANI): MR CHAIRPERSON Good morning Honourable Members.

Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, regarding the Societies Bill, 2021 (No.
38 of 2021), a number of amendments have been noticed and the Bill has 32 Clauses.

I shall therefore, call the Clauses consecutively so that we can move on as quickly as possible.

Clause 1 agreed to.

MR CHAIRPERSON: There is an amendment at Clause 2 noticed by the Minister.
I should mention Honourable Members that as you go through the Bill, you will see that we probably have received another document showing amendments this morning, just to make sure that… it appears the Minister has further amendments on the amendments she has noticed and we should be on the same page when she deals with those.

MR CHAIRPERSON: You are saying Honourable Ramogapi that your proposed amendment is also to Clause 2?

MR RAMOGAPI: Yes, it is in Clause 2, not Clause 3.


MR CHAIRPERSON: And it is notified?

MS MOKGETHI: Mr Chairperson, Clause 2 is the definition Clause.

So, this amendment is correctly placed under Clause 2.

MR CHAIRPERSON: As I understand Honourable Minister, what Honourable Ramogapi is saying is that he too has an amendment which touches on Clause 2, whether it is definition or not but he says his own amendment is also at Clause 2.
If the two amendments do not conflict, we can take them one after the other.

If they are dealing with the same thing, we take one with the understanding that… unless you argue the next one, once you …(Inaudible)… the first one which is contrary to the other proposed amendment, that one will die.

MS MOKGETHI: I get you Mr Chairperson, I understand now but they appear in alphabetical order which means that my amendment should be addressed first and then Honourable Ramogapi’s will follow.
THE OPPOSITION LEADER OF (MR SALESHANDO): Procedure.

Mr Chairperson, may I ask for just an explanation on the procedure that you talked to?

Clause 2 MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
The Bill is amended at Clause 2 appearing at page B.386 by inserting in the correct alphabetical order, the following new definition - “office-bearer” of a society means any elected, appointment, or co-opted person who is a member of the board, committee or governing body thereof.” I submit Mr Chairperson.

Procedure.

RAMOGAPI: MR Honourable Chairperson, ke kopa gore o nkgakolole fa ka procedure ya me, amendment ya me e ke e dirileng e kwa Clause 2, not 3.
Jaanong matshwenyego a me ke gore kana fa re ka feta ka Clause 2 gotwe it has been adopted kwa morago re bo re re Clause 3, ke bo ke re nnyaa, mme kana golo fa ke phoso, terena e tlaabo e setse e tsamaile.

Gongwe ke go bolelele ruri gore golo fa go na le phoso, go na le amendment kwa Clause 2, not 3.

MR SALESHANDO: Well, it is not only on this Bill, le tse dingwe tse di latelang, go na le tse go nang le Mapalamente a ka nna mabedi ba o fitlhelang ba tlisitse proposal on the same Clause.
Gongwe go nne clear gore re ya go dira jang ka gore dinako tse dingwe tradition e a tle e nne gore go tsewa tse di tlileng ka Matona pele.

E bo e re e sena go dumalanwa go bo gotwe re setse re fetile.

Fa e le gore di a tshwana, ke eng re sa dumalane kwa ntlheng gore those who amend botlhe ba letlelelwe go ntsha mabaka a bone gore re a utlwe?

Ga go thuse re tlhopha mo go e nngwe re sa utlwe gore e e latelang ya reng.

That is number one.

Two; Mr Chairperson, Matona ba tlisitse amendments di le mmalwa.
Gongwe gona le gore re balelwe fela gore jaanong ke tsenya e nngwe ke e, ke ba kope fela gore go ka re thusa fa Tona a ka re raya a re fa ke tlisa Bill e, ke ne ke sa lemoga tse di latelang, kana ke tsibositswe jaana ka gore tse dingwe ga re a di discuss mo Second 1 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage Reading, di disha.

Therefore, it will make sense gore Matona ba re bolelele gore ke eng jaanong ba bone go tlhokafala gore ba tlise Tshutiso eo.
Ke kopo fela mo Matoneng Mr Chairperson.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Indeed, what used to happen is that when any Member, and that include the Minister, moves an amendment, and some other Member also has an amendment dealing with the same issue, when the floor is open for the debate, the Member who has the same issue should take the floor in debating what has been moved to indicate to the House that, that amendment moved by the other Member, should not be attempted because I have a better amendment which proposes, a, b, c which makes the Bill better or which has a better effect.
So that when Members vote, they know that they have those alternatives.

Re mmogo?

As for the request, I do not see any harm.

I think where it is obvious that the proposed amendment was intended to ameliorate fears which may have been expressed in the Second Reading debate, that this explains that at the Second Reading, Honourable Members had this feeling and on reflection, I as the Minister in charge, thought I could do a, b, c to answer that.
Fa o dira jalo, le tsamaya mmogo, batho ba go tlhaloganya botoka gore wa re o batla go dira eng.

The others may not actually reply to that.

It may be a reflection of the Honourable Minister herself by reflecting on the Bill, and thinking that nnyaa, ke ka tokafatsa Bill e fa ke ka dira jaana.

In which case the Minister obviously will explain the amendment as you argue.

Honourable Ramogapi, ka gore amendments di di ntsi, wena wa re o ne o bua ka definition ya society?
MR CHAIRPERSON: You are quite right Honourable Ambassador Kapinga.

That is the proper English.

I am sure the Minister will agree with that, “appointed.” MS MOKGETHI: Mr Chairperson, I agree.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

Thank you Minister.

Honourable Ramogapi, a o kgotsofetse Mokwena?

MR RAMOGAPI: Ee rra.

MR CHAIRPERSON: O kgotsofetse, re fete?

MR RAMOGAPI: Nnyaa, re kgotsofetse, re ka tsena mo go ya me.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa, we are debating the Minister’s proposal of the definition of society.
MR RAMOGAPI: Yes, Mr Chairperson… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Member, office bearer, I am sorry; office bearer of a society.

MR RAMOGAPI: Yes.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ee, yone e Ambassador Kapinga was correcting that to be “appointed.” “Office bearer of a society means.” Wena what is your grouse?

MR RAMOGAPI: Ya me e mo definition of the society not the definition of the officer bearer.

Office bearer le yone ke dumalana le yone.


MR CHAIRPERSON: Ehee, ke one a ke neng ke a bua gore where we are not conflicting, we should deal with the thing and finish with it.

Clause 2 as amended agreed to.

MR RAMOGAPI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

Clause 2 MR CHAIRPERSON: Then as I put the question, if you are so minded, you can ask for the floor.

MR RAMOGAPI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!


Honourable Members, the question is that the amendment as proposed by the Honourable Minister be agreed to.

I see Honourable Ambassador Kapinga.

MR KAPINGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

I might have missed it when the Honourable Minister was presenting the amendment.

I see a typo in the proposed amendment.

Instead of “appointment”, it should read “appointed.” Maybe she corrected it, and I missed it.
MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson, the first amendment ke yone e ke setseng ke e kopile Mr Chairperson, gore re sutlhe Clause 3 re dire Clause 2.

The second amendment e ke tlaa e kopang, go na le typing error mo go (c) ke “political and listed in the Schedule.” We should delete “party” and put “and” under (c) “political and listed in the Schedule.” MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Member, you are saying you are dealing with Clause 2 and I want to ensure that we are together.
MR RAMOGAPI: Yes, we are dealing with Clause 2 appearing on page B.473.

2 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: 473.

MR RAMOGAPI: Yes, by substituting the definition of the word “society” with the following definition.

Before I make the amendment, I was proposing that there is a typing error there under (c).
There is not “party”, there is “political and listed in the Schedule.” MR CHAIRPERSON: If you can read your proposed definition of society Honourable Member, so that it goes into the record of the Hansard.

MR RAMOGAPI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.


The Bill is amended at Clause 2 appearing on page B.473 by substituting for the definition of the word “society” the following new definition - “society” means any association of 20 or more persons formed primarily for raising or disbursing funds for purpose such as (a) charitable; (b) religious; (c) political party listed in the Schedule; (d) cultural; (e) educational; (f) social; or (g) fraternal purposes”.

That is the proposed amendment.


Justification of this amendment Mr Speaker is simple, firstly is to deal with the number, that we should do away with 150 ka mabaka a gore tota dikgaolo tse dingwe tsa settlements tse di nnyennyane tse di nang le batho ba ba nnyennyane, ga di kgone go nna le batho ba le bo 150.

Ka jalo, re tlaabo re kgoreletsa batho go obamela Modimo.
Kgang ya bobedi ke gore fa re farologanya re bo re tsaya kereke differently, tota re tlaabo re sa dire sentle, re ba kgetholola gore lona le kereke re a le bifela, re batla ba bantsintsi gore le kwadise mokgatlho wa lona, golo mo ga go a siama gotlhelele.

Go nyenyafatsa kereke gore mo mekgatlhong e yotlhe e, e ka kwadisa batho ba le 20, mme kereke fela e nosi ga e ka ke ya ba ya kwadisa ka batho ba le 20, ba tshwanetse gore ba nne 150 kana go feta.
Golo mo go tseela batho ditshwanelo tsa bone tse di mo Molaomotheong Mr Chairperson.

Ditshwanelo tsa batho tse di mo Molaomotheong wa re there should be freedom of worship, batho ba tshwanetse ke gore ba obamele Modimo ba gololesegile, ba sa kganelwe ke gore le kgone go obamela Modimo, le bo le na le dipalo tse dintsi.

Golo mo ga go a siama Mr Chairperson.


Lebaka le lengwe Mr Chairperson, le ke batlang gore e re fa re ntse re lebeletse, o bo o nthusa gape ke tswelela ka kgang e. Ke tsentse kgang ya political ka gore fa re ka e tlogela, ga ke na go tlhola ke e tshwara gope terena, e tlaabo e tšhaile.

Ke bo ke re listed in this Schedule, ka gore molao o o leng teng, o na le Schedule se se adimang dithata kana authority from Section 3.
Jaanong gone fa Mr Chairperson, ke tlhalose gape gore ke ka bo ke go kopile gore e re fa ke baya definition e, o ntetlelele gape ke tshware amendment ya me e e mo page B.483, e e leng gore fa ke ka se ke ke e kgome Mr Chairperson, ka gore fa ke tsisitse political, kgang e tlaa nna gore nna ke le Minister ke ntshitse political.
Kgang ya me e tona fa o bona ke tsentse political fa Mr Chairperson, ke bo ke ya kwa page B.483 e ke kopang gore Schedule se se adimang thata ya sone; ke tsaya gore o a ntlhaloganya wena, se se leng teng mo Molaomotheong se se supang gore political parties ke dife, se tshwanelwa ke gore se nne teng Mr Chairperson, fa re dira molao.

E seng jalo fa re ntsha Schedule se, kana re dirile mo gotweng go na le lacuna.
Re tlaabo re dirile mo gotweng go na le gap, e e leng gore they can sue and be sued these political parties.

Fa re ba ntsha, re bo re didimala re sa bue sepe, go raya gore ra reng ka dikoloto tsa bone, ra reng ka batho ba ba ba sekisang, re tlaabo re dirile gap mo molaong.

Ga re a tshwanela gore fa re dira molao, re bo re dira gap.
Ke yone kgang e e botlhokwatlhokwa fa o bona ke tsentse kgang ya political, gore nnyaa, a mo tlhalosong e name e le teng, e tlaa re fa re setse re dira molao jaaka Tona a ne a bua, a re nnyaa, kana o ipaakanyetsa gore o tlaa tla a dira molao o mongwe.

Ga re a tshwanela gore re bo re ntshitse batho ba from the Schedule, mme re bo re sa bue sepe fela.
Ke tsaya gore o ntlhaloganya botoka ka kgang e Tona gore, kana fa o sekisa (sue) motho Mr Chairperson, wa re kana ke sekisa Onneetse Ramogapi wa identity number ya gore, mme gape fa o sekisa political party, o bua in a legal personality ya bone gore nnyaa, kana batho ba ba kwadisitswe ke Registrar of Societies ka Section ya gore, ba na le setlankana sa Registrar of Societies.

Jaanong fa re ba ntsha fela re bo re didimala, re tlaabo re dirile a lacuna mo tsamaisong, go sena fa go yang go nyalana teng.
Re tshwanetse ke gore molao o o name o le teng, go fitlhelela go bo go nna le molao o mosha, o Tona a o akantseng, e seng jalo re tlaabo re dirile mathata a matona.

3 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage Fa o ka lebelela Mr Chairperson, ke go gakolola mo rona re tlaabong re tlhapa diatla mo go tse dingwe, fa ba gana nnyaa, rona ga re na mathata rra, gakere re ne ra gakolola.
Re tshwanetse gore re gakolole bagarona, re itse gore bagaetsho, golo fa re bua ka dikgang tse di tlhwaafetseng, ga re bue ka sephathi, ga re bue ka sepe, re bua ka matshelo a dikereke, gore kereke e nne teng, re bua ka matshelo a a mo Molaomotheong gore nnyaa, bagaetsho ga re a tshwanela gore kereke yone re bo re e tsaya differently.

Ke gore o akanye Mr Chairperson, fa ba lekgamu la ga saatane ba dira society, bone gatwe ba nne 20 fela.
O e tshware sentle Mr Chairperson, jaanong fa ba lekgamu la Modimo bone ba ba ipitsang ba re ke religious gotwe bone ba nne 150.

Ke gore o bone gore batho ba, ke gore ba tlhoa kereke, ba tlhoa Modimo ka tsela e jaanong go tlaabong go sa re beye sentle mo setšhabeng.

Le kwa Financial Action Task Force (FATF), ga gona gope fa gotweng gore kereke e nne kereke e le nosi, e nne le batho ba le 150.
Yo mongwe e kile ya re maloba ba ntse ba leka go baakanya yone kgang e Mr Chairperson, ba bo ba re nnyaa, kana kgang e e ne e ntse e le teng e kile ya bo e le teng... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Chairperson.

Procedure Mr MR RAMOGAPI: …molao o tsisitswe fa wa society gotwe re o baakanye, e bo gotwe re baakanye definition e e neng e seyo.
Jaanong gotwe a re e baakanye re e tsenye mo teng, re itse gore re tshwanelwa ke go tsenya ditlhogo, re dumalane le Minister fa go siame, fa re mo kopang gore a baakanye teng re re mmaetsho, ela tlhoko golo foo.

Fa e le gore ga a go ele tlhoko Mr Chairperson, rona re tlaabo re tlhapile diatla.

I therefore submit Honourable Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable Ramogapi.

Vice President (VP), procedure.

LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Point of procedure.
Going forward Mr Chairperson, ka gore re a itse gore we take that the Honourable Members they understand the point at which we are, le gore fa o rotloetsa, tota o fa mabaka a go sedimosa gore what motivated the amendment.

We must not drift and be tempted to debate, o kare jaanong re kwa second stage.

I thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister Mokgethi.

MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Let me indicate that I am opposed to the amendment suggested by Honourable Ramogapi.

My reason Mr Chairperson, is that ka fa molao o o kwadilweng ka teng mo nakong e, o baakantswe ka ngwaga wa 2016, ka mabaka a gore go ne go na le dingongorego tse di seng kana ka sepe di tswa mo setšhabeng, di tswa mo dikerekeng ka bo tsone.

Dingongorego tseo, di dirile gore re felele re dumalane le bone, re bo re baya threshold ya batho ba le 150 ba ba ka ba kwadisang ke mekgatlho ya tumelo.
Ka jalo, ga ke dumalane le Honourable Ramogapi.

Jaanong threshold eo, e beilwe go lebeletswe gore fa re ka e baya kwa palong ya 20 jaaka honourable suggests, go raya gore re tlaabo re boela kwa seemong se re neng re le mo go sone, se se neng se baka gore go runye dikereke tse dintsi mo setšhabeng sa rona.

Gore re beye threshold yone eo ya 150, re ne re araba selelo sa Batswana ka kakaretso, le tsone dikereke.
Re supe gape gore batho ba ba neng ba baka go runya ga dikereke mo lefatsheng la rona la Botswana ke batswakwa.

Ke bone ba ba neng ba tla go bopa dikereke kana mekgatlho ya tumelo, mo go neng go baka gore Batswana ka bobone ba tshwenyege.

Re supe gape gore dikereke tsone tseo tse e leng gore di ne di runya, o tlaa fitlhela motho a kgona go tsaya ba lesika la gagwe ba le 10, ba bo ba tla go kwadisa mokgatlho wa tumelo.
Re ne re bona gore ga go a nna sentle gore batho ba ipope e nne ba masika, ba bo ba tla ba kwadisa kereke.

Moo gape go ne go dira gore go bake dikgotlhang tse di seng kana ka sepe, go bo go felela go dira gore lephata la me le manage conflicts tseo tsa dikereke, tse go nang le dikgogakgogano tse di seng kana ka sepe.

Mo dikgannyeng jaaka honourable a tsentse diphathi tsa sepolotiki mo Schedule, ga re dumalane le mogopolo wa teng.
Re setse re supile maloba gore re ntsha diphathi tsa sepolotiki fa tlase ga molao wa societies.

Ke tlhalositse jalo.

Ke gone mo go neng go felela ke le bolelela gore Section kana Clause 6 (1) (a), 7 (1) (a), le 9 (1) (a) re a di ntsha ka lebaka la gore re ntsha diphathi tsa sepolotiki.
Jaanong ke tlhalositse gape maloba gore diphathi tsa sepolotiki di ne di kwadisiwa fela fa tlase ga molao wa societies mme e le gore Registrar of Societies o ne a sena dithata tsa to monitor them, so ka lebaka leo ga re ka ke ra dumalana le mogopolo o go tsenya political parties under (c) jaaka Honourable Ramogapi has suggested.

Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

4 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MR SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification.

Mr Speaker, ga ke itse gore a Minister o ne a re utlwa fa re kopa tlhaloso mo go ene because I doubt gore o ka gana go re fa tlhaloso, maybe o ne a sa re utlwe.

Ke ne ke kopile tlhaloso mo go ya dikereke fa a bua ka yone.

MS MOKGETHI: Ke kopa gore a tswelele ka tlhaloso ya gagwe.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ba kopa tlhaloso.

MR SALESHANDO: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.
Fa e le gore ke go tlhaloganya sentle Minister, se o se buang ke gore maikaelelo fa ke go kgetholola dikereke gore di se ka tsa oketsega ka lebelo le le kwa godimo mme o itebagantse thata le tse di tlhamiwang ke batswakwa.

I think that is the long and short of your argument.
Fa e le gore go ntse jalo, a ga gona ka fa tsetla e e ka kwalwang ka teng gore fa o le Motswana o batla go simolola kereke, ga re ne re go kgetholola, o tlaa tshwana le mekgatlho e mengwe e tlaa nna 20, re bo re tlhalosa gore fa o se Motswana, gone o tlaa batliwa 150?

A gone moo ga go alafe bolwetse jo o bo buang gore ba e leng Batswana ba batla go itshimololela dikereke, re se ka ra ba gagamaletsa setoropo, lebaka e le gore ra re re leka go kganela batswakwa?
A gone moo o ka se ka wa go amogela gore e nne 20 mo Batswaneng, and then 150 mo batswakweng?

A o ka amogela fa e ka kwalega jalo?

MS MOKGETHI: Ga ke ka ke ka dumalana le mogopolo ole.

Ke ne ke re bontsi bo ne bo kwadisiwa ke batswakwa, ke sa reye gore Batswana le bone ga ba kwadise dikereke ka tsela e e ntseng jalo; go runya ga dikereke tse di tlhomiwang ke Batswana.
Batswakwa le Batswana ba ne ba kwadisa dikereke ka dipalo tse di kwa godimo, mme batswakwa ke bone ba ba neng ba le kwa pele mme go sa reye gore re ka letlelela Batswana.

Ke tlhalositse gore go na le batho bangwe ba ba phuthang masika a bone, ke raya bone Batswana.

Ba phutha masika a bone ba nna 10 kana 20, ba bo ba tla go kwadisa mokgatlho.

Jaanong go nnile le selelo se se seng kana ka sepe mabapi le go runya ga dikereke tse.
Re tlaabo re boela kwa re tswang teng re tla go baka dingongorego tse di ntshiwang ke Batswana.

So ga ke dumalane le mogopolo gore re boele kwa palong ya 50.

Kopo ya me ke gore e eme jaaka e ntse mo nakong e e mo molaong, ka fa molao o o kwadilweng ka teng, re felele gone kwa go 100 kana re beye bonnyennyane jwa batho ba le 150.

Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

MR RAMOGAPI: On a point of clarification.

Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.

Ke a leboga Honourable Minister Mme Mma Mokgethi.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: Re tsholeditse mabogo Mr Speaker, o se ka wa re lebala.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa, o ne a re clarification, wena o batla go bua.

MR RAMOGAPI: Ke ne ke re ke neele Batswana clarifications tse pedi, tshedimosetso tse pedi gore a wa re o kgetholola kereke, ga o e batle, o e tlhoile?

Ke gore o e tlhalose fela sentle gore nnyaa, re tlaabo re kgetholola kereke, e bile ga re na sepe le Molaomotheo o o reng motho o tshwanelwa ke gore a obamele.
Ke kopa gore ntlha eo o fete ka yone ya freedom of worship.

Kgang ya bobedi Mr Speaker, e ke neng ke re ke a mo gakolola, fa a gana go tswa mo go ene, ke kgang ya political parties.

Mr Speaker, Mme Mma Mokgethi a re fa a emisa to register political parties letsatsi leno, wa re letsatsi leno re bo re cancel, go tlaabo go sena yo o kwadisang jaanong?

Fa ke batla go dira political party kamoso, wa re ke bo ke ya kae?
Ke bo ke ema gotwe ga gona molao o o ka kwadisang political party, go raya gore o eme pele re santse re tlaa ya go dira molao?

Kana golo mo ga go ka fa molaong.

Re dira sengwenyana fela se sele se e leng gore ga se ka fa molaong ka gore motho o na le tshwanelo ya go itirela political party.
Jaanong ke re ke go botse gore a gone fa ga o bone gore go tlaabo go na le lacuna, go na le gap; leroba le e leng gore gone fa… Ke gore re emisitse to register political parties mme motho o batla to register, a ye kae Mme Mma Mokgethi?

A ko o re tlhalosetse gore a ye kae ka gore re a go cancel gompieno, kamoso fela fa motho a batla to register political party o ise o dire molao ole, motho a... MR CHAIRPERSON: I am sure the Minister has heard you Honourable Member.
MS MOKGETHI: Honourable Ramogapi ka fa a tlhalosang ka teng ke gore a re ba ba five, 10 kana 20 ka fa ene a gopotseng ka teng, jaaka he has suggested, still go tlaabo go baka kgethololo.

Ke dumela gore re na le tshwanelo e e tletseng gore re ka baya a threshold ya dipalo tsa batho ba ba ka kwadisiwang.

Fa e le gore we want to manage mekgatlho sentle, re na le tshwanelo, re lebile Molaomotheo kana re lebile eng fela.

Le wena 20 o o mmeileng o ka nna wa tsewa e le kgethololo.
Re tshwanetse gore re beye some kind of threshold gore go 5 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage nne le tsamaiso e e lolameng ya go tsamaisa dikereke.

So ga ke dumalane le wena ka kgang ele gore e tlaabo e le kgethololo fa tlase ga Molaomotheo wa lefatshe la Botswana.

reng a political parties di name di tsene.

E tlaare fa e le gore gongwe le batla go baakanya melao, ngwaga o le tlaabong le o baakanya ka teng, go bo go sena vacuum.
Se o lekang go se dira ke to create vacuum.

Ke tlhalositse maloba gore ke ntsha sections dingwe mabapi le gore maikaelelo a rona ke gore re dire a different dispensation mabapi le mekgatlho ya sepolotiki.

Maikaelelo a rona re tlaa di kwadisa diphathi tsa sepolotiki.

In the interim ka molao o re setse re ba kwadisa, di tlaa sala di ntse fela jalo housed under our ministry mme for now re di ntshitse go fitlhelela re create a separate dispensation.

Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.


MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Member for Sefhare-Ramokgonami; Honourable Dr Gobotswang.

MS MOKGETHI: Let me just maybe explain Mr Speaker.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Hang on Doctor.

MS MOKGETHI: I just want to explain that we are going to provide for a transition period so that we do not leave a gap.

Maikaelelo a rona is not to leave that gap.


Mekgatlho e mengwe jaaka e e leng gore are exempted society, immediately fa molao o o tla into effect, go tlaabo go raya gore now the exemption will no longer be operative.

Go tlaabo go raya gore re ba raya re re, tsamayang le ye go kwadisa mekgatlho ya lona yotlheyotlhe sesha.

Fa re bua ka diphathi tsa sepolotiki, re ya go dira an interim dispensation gore di se ka tsa tsena mo legoeleleng, re bo re felela re ipotsa gore re ya go dira jang.
Dispensation eo re ya go dira gore re e itlhaganelele gore go se ka ga nna le a lacuna.

Ditshwanelo tsa batho tsa go kwadisa diphathi tsa sepolotiki di se ka tsa gatakwa ka dinao.

Ke a leboga Modulasetilo.

GOBOTSWANG DR (SEFHARE- RAMOKGONAMI): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, ke tsaya gore le wena fa o reeditse Honourable Minister, o a utlwa gore o tshwara kwa le kwa.

Ke motho wa molao yo o neng a tshwanetse a tsepame, re utlwe gore a reng.
Ga a kgone go tlhalosa potso e e motlhofo ya gore, a re molao o fa o fela, ga a batle go tlogela vacuum.

Fa re mmotsa gore molao o fa o fela, motho a batla go dira political party, o ya go e kwadisa kae, ga a kgone go araba potso e. Jaanong gone foo o dira mathata.

Ke sone se Honourable Ramogapi a Honourable Ramogapi, in terms of numbers tse a buang ka tsone, ga a ise a re five, e bile ga a ise a re 10.

O papametse a re a batho ba nne 20.

Wena wa re nnyaa, le tshwentswe ke gore dikereke di nna dintsi.
Jaanong le tla ka palo.

Ga ke dumele gore o kile wa boela kwa Batswaneng ba ba neng ba ngongorega gore o batle maikutlo mo go bone gore a go nne 20 kana 150.

Fa o ne o boetse kwa Batswaneng ka dipalo, gongwe re ka bo re se mo mathateng a re leng mo go one jaanong re sa dumalane ka dipalo.

Ga go lebege go na le clear basis ya gore ke eng o re 150, mme go na le freedom of association.

Yone wa reng ka yone Tona?


Jaanong gape o batla to solve problem ya batho ba ba tswang kwa mafatsheng a sele, ba dira dikereke mono tse dintsintsi fela.

Ke tsaya gore eo e na le tsela e o ka bo o e dirile ka yone.

A re tshwanetse go letlelela motswakwa a tla go dira kereke mono kana o tshwanetse a e dira Batswana ba le teng, e le bone ba ba eteletseng pele.
Jaanong o batla to solve problem ya Batswakwa ka go baya Batswana ka fa mosing, ba ba batlang gore ba nne le kgololesego ya go rapela Honourable Minister.

Ke ema nokeng Tshutiso ya ga Honourable Ramogapi gore a political party e utlwale gore e fa kae.

E seng jalo re tlaabo re le mo leheleleng.

Re tlaabo re boela mo kgannyeng e e kileng ya nna matswakabele go sa itsiwe gore a Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC) e kwa Registrar of Societies.

Is it registered or not?


Ga re ka ke ra nna ka tsela e e ntseng jalo ya ketsaetsego Honourable Minister.

Therefore, I support the proposal by Honourable Ramogapi.

I thank you.

MS MOKGETHI: Mr Chairperson, Honourable Gobotswang o botsa gore a mme re rerisitse Batswana... MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, the floor has been given to Honourable Nkawana.

MR NKAWANA (SELEBI PHIKWE EAST): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Le nna ke batla go ema nokeng amendment ya ga Honourable Ramogapi.
Ke lebile gore Goromente wa Botswana o lebega a tshoga fa batho ba ba rapelang Modimo ba nna bantsi.

Go lebega a tshosiwa ke gore dikereke fa di nna dintsi go ka fetola Puso.

Ke bua ka batho ba e leng gore ke dikeletso tsa bone, ke gore ba ka tsena kereke ya mofuta mang.

Fa o na keletso ya go tsamaya dikereke tsa mainstream 6 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage tse re di itseng, mme o na le tumelo e o nang le yone, ke e tshwantshanya le ya ga Honourable Hikuama, go botlhokwa gore o gololesege go e kwadisa, go sa kgathalesege gore o setswe ke bomang morago.

Ke dumalana le wena gore re tshwanetse re beye palo e ka akaretsang Batswana.

Honourable Ramogapi o beile palo e e leng gore gotlhelele ga o dumalane le yone.

Tota 150 o montsi thatathata go menagane.


Mma ke go fe sekai Honourable Minister; fa re ka tsaya batho ba re ba bitsang re re ke gays, ba gantsi re ba kgethololang re le Goromente, gore fa ba batla go itirela kereke ba le kwa Gaborone kgotsa Selebi Phikwe, a o dumela gore ba ka tshwara 150 yo o mmatlang?

Ke raya fela gore Minister, a ko o lebelele dilo tse ka leitlho le sele.

A 150 o, o dumela gore they can raise it mo motseng o tshwana le wa Bobonong?
Ke tsaya gore o a re utlwa gore mabaka a rona ke eng.

Kgang e tona ke gore, re tshwanetse re tlogele dikereke di gole ka gore botlhe ba rapela Modimo.

Batho ba ba rapelang Modimo tumelo ke gore, dilo dingwe tse di sa siamang, ga ba ka ke ba di dira.

Re tshwanetse ra itse gore ba rotlhe re ba Modimo, go sa kgathalesege gore a o rapela bosigo kgotsa motshegare.

Palo e e kopiwang ke Honourable Ramogapi, ke dumalana le yone, ke e ema nokeng.

Go na le kgang e ya sepolotiki.


Ke batla o tlhalosa, e bile o re tlhomamisetse gore a wa re fa molao o o tsena into effect ka letsatsi le o tlaabong o saenne, a political parties e tlaabo re santse re di bitsa jalo kgotsa e tlaabo e le non-entities?

They will be registered mme go sena molao that covers them.

O re fetise gone foo gore o tlile go di tsaya o reng?

A Domkrag e tlaabo e sa tlhole e le party, e le batho fela, ba ba ka nnang ba tshwarwa fa ba kgobokane?
O mphetise mo go eo Honourable Minister.

Kwa bofelong, ke ema Honourable Ramogapi nokeng ka mogopolo wa gagwe.

Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

FOR PRESIDENTIAL MINISTER AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): Mma ke go leboge Modulasetilo ka boikobo jo bo kalo.

Ke supe gore tota ntlha e e buiwang thata ka dikereke ke bakaulengwe ba me, bogolo jang mokaulengwe Ramogapi, ke tsaya gore tlhaloso e setse e dule.
Re leka go hema kgang ya mushroom ya diphuthego, go sa twe go kganelwa batho go nna le diphuthego.

Yo o eletsang go dira phuthego, a bo a supile maitlamo le go tlhwaafala ga gagwe ka kgang ya dipalo.

Ope a se ka a akanya gore Puso e kgatlhanong le dikereke jaaka mokaulengwe Motlotlegi Rre Ramogapi a re go raya gore re ila Modimo re le Puso kana Domkrag e ila Modimo, kana dikereke, ga se boammaruri.

Se go buiwang ka sone fa, ke se bontsi jwa Batswana ba dumalanang le sone.
E se gore Batswana gatwe ba se ka ba itirela dikereke fa ba na le pitso eo.

Ngongorego e mokaulengwe wa me Rre Ramogapi, ga ke itse gore o e tsaya kae?

Ke mang yo o tlileng kwa go ene a mo raya a re o a ngongorega o batla go tlhama kereke, jaanong mathata ke gore batho ba teng ga ba kgone go tshwara 150?
Tota maikaelelo ka fa ke dumelang ka teng ke gore, go nne le tsamaiso ya go hema gore kereke e e leng gore nna le Ramogapi, le tsala e nngwe ya rona, re tlaabo re ikopanya re re re dire kereke, gotsweng foo re bo re dira se e seng sone ka kereke.

Ke question ya go leka gore go nne le ditsamaiso, checks and balances.

Jaanong ga ke dumalane le mokaulengwe Ramogapi fa a re fa gotwe 150, go raya gore go bogisiwa Batswana.
Kgang e ya dipalo tsa batho fa go tlhamiwa dikereke Motlotlegi Modulasetilo, e kile ya buiwa, go fetilwe ka yone.

Ke kopa gore re se ka ra dia nako mo go yone ka gore ga go na ope yo o tlhoafetseng, yo o batlang go tlhama kereke mono, yo o sokodisiwang ke go dira 150 wa batho, kwa ntleng ga yo o tsayang chances Rre Ramogapi.

Jaanong kgang jaaka mongwe a bua, a re mme kana gone kwa settlement, fa o batla go dira kereke gongwe le le palo potlana le ka se ke le dire 150.
Ke re nnyaa, go a kgonagala Rre Ramogapi.

Ga go a twe fa o le Rre Ramogapi, kwa lelwapeng le bana ba gago, ga o kganelwe go rapela Modimo jaaka e kare gatwe go obama, ke fela fa o tlhamile kereke, ga go tualo.

Batswana ba tsoga ba tsietsega, ba akanya gore ke boammaaruri Puso e ila kereke e bile ga e batle dikereke di tlhamiwa ka gore ga go tualo.

E bile ga go na ba ba ngongoregang ba nna ke ba itseng, kwa ntleng fa bangwe ba tota ba neng ba re ba tsaya chances.

Batho fela ga ke bone ba ngongorega.


Ke kopa re dumalane le Tona ka kgang ya 150 yo o setseng a le teng.

Re se ka ra dumalana le Tshutiso ya ga Motlotlegi… OF MINISTER ASSISTANT LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT (MS MONNAKGOTLA): Elucidation.

Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Ke utlwa Motlotlegi Morwaeng le Motlotlegi Mokgethi e bile ke mo ema nokeng.
Motlotlegi Morwaeng o bua mafoko a mantle ka gore kwa settlements, se ba se dirang bogolo jang kwa bo Zutshwa, Ngwatle, Monong fela jalo, ka gore ga ba bantsi, ba a kopanya, 20, 20, 20 yole e bo e nna 150.

7 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage Normally ba dira jalo, ba bo ba ya go kwadisa kereke, mme ga go nke go tsenya dingalo.

Ke dumalana le wena motlotlegi.

Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.


MR MORWAENG: Tota ke one ao fela, ngongorego e gotweng go ngongoregiwa ka dipalo, ke la ntlha ke e utlwa morago ga nako e e kanakana ka gore kgang e, e setse e kile ya buiwa ya wela.

Ga ke itse gore tsala ya me Ramogapi o e tsosetsa eng, jaaka tsala ya me mongwe mo Palamenteng a e tle a bue, ga se gore nako le nako Honourable Ramogapi, o tshwanetse go bua.
Mokaulengwe a re e amogele, re tlogele Tona ka palo e, re se ka sa fokotsa palo e. So ka a le kalo, ke a leboga Modulasetilo.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ya diphathi tsa polotiki?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O e tsena kwa Malawi akere.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Member of Parliament (MP) for Ngami!

…Silence… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Hikuama!

…Silence… MR CHAIRPERSON: O siile?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Hikuama ga a itse sepe ka dikereke.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O leka go bua, mme e a gana.

MR CHAIRPERSON: A o a mmona?


HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR TSOGWANE): Tota kgang e e tsositswe fela ke ba ba e tsosang ka gore go raya gore mo nakong e e fetileng, e rile fa e buiwa, ba salela kwa morago, gongwe ba se ka ba lemoga gore molao o fetisitswe, go ntse fela jalo.
Tona fa a tla a tlisa golo fa, tota ga se kgang e a e tlisitseng, e ne e le go tlhalosa fela gore society ke eng, ka fa molao o ntseng ka teng, ka ditumalano tse di neng tsa dirwa mo Palamenteng e e fetileng gore society se se ya go nna le dipalo tsa 120.

Re ne ra nna le nako Mr Chairperson, ka nako eo, ga buiwa (debate) ka boleele, ga rerisanngwa le ba ba amegang jaaka Tona a bua.

Makgotla a a okametseng dikereke, ke dikgang tse ba di itseng, ba ne ba nna le sebaka sa go ka akgela mo go tsone.
Jaanong gompieno e a bo e runya fela ka Rre Ramogapi, yo o lebalang thata gore kgang e sale e dumalanwe.

Ke ne ke batla gore setšhaba se utlwe kwa ntle, se se ka sa tsaya gore jaanong go tlile molao gape o o buisanngwang ka dipalo tsa dikereke.

Nnyaa, kgang e re leng mo go yone, ke melao e e amanang le borukutlhi le e mengwe fela jalo e e dirang gore makgotla a le one a tsenngwe leitlho, a bonale gore a nna le ditsamaiso tse di rileng.
Mo e ne e le go supa fela gore ka fa molao o ntseng ka teng, kereke go tewa yone e molao o o leng teng, o o mo tirisong, o o supang gore e na le batho ba le 120.

Jaanong moo o ne a chaya staff fela tsala ya me ya kwa Palapye, a batla go sukunyetsa fela gore bagabone ba tle ba utlwe gore nnyaa, o santse a le bete se molangwana ka kgang eo, ga a kgotsofala ka yone.

Bagaetsho, fa re sa kgotsofale ka dikgang tsa melao, kana ga re ka ke ra fetsa dingwaga tsotlhe re dira molao o le mongwefela fela.
Nako le nako fa re bua se, re boela kwa kgannyeng e kgologolo.

E tlaa tla mo nakong e e tlang.

Go na le matlhale a mangwe a a tlang.

Go na le Dipalamente tse dingwe tse di tlang tsa banana, tse di tlaa tlang di bona gore ka nako ya bone fa ba dira ditlhotlhomiso le studies, a mme palo eo e santse e ba siametse.

Gongwe bone ba tlile go ya kwa go 250, 500 kana ba boela kwa go zero, ga re itse.
A re ba neeleng sebaka, ga se rona fela matlhale ba Palamente ya gompieno, Dipalamente di tlaa tla ka matlhale a a farologanyeng, ba ba tlaa tlang ba bona gore ba baakanya fa kae.

Molao o ntse jalo, o a baakanngwa, e re ba ba tlang gongwe ba o busetse kwa morago ba o baakanye.

Fa rona re dumalane ka nako ya rona, re dumalane Modulasetilo.

Ya dikereke tota ga se kgang, ya bo gore kereke ga e ratwe ke Puso e, nnyaa.
Puso e itse gore ke yone fela Puso ya Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) e e saleng e tsere ka nako e re neng re tsaya boipuso, e e neng ya gololela go rapela.

Borraarona ba ne ba bua gore ba ne ba bogisiwa ba tsenngwa dikgolegelo, e e gololetseng thapelo fela sentle, e bile ga go na Motswana yo o ka tsiediwang gore Puso e kwa e tswang teng, e tseetse thapelo kwa godimo ka tsela e e ntseng jang.

Jaanong a re iketleng fela bagaetsho, re wele dibete.
Kgang e ke batlang go tsena mo go yone e go neng gotwe Motlotlegi Mokgethi ga a e araba, o e arabile.

Molao fa o dirwa, o na le nako ya gore o tlaa diragadiwa (effect) leng.

Le fa re ka o fetisa gone fa, o tlaa bua gore o tlaa nna mo tirisong leng.

Go raya gore mo lebakeng lone leo, o o leng teng, o tlaabo o santse o ka dirisiwa 8 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage go fitlhelela ole o nna le effective date ya one.
Jaanong Tona o le boleletse fa gore ga go nke go nna le gap e Rre Ramogapi a neng a supa fa e tshwenya.

Ee, fa go ne go ka nna jalo gone go ka tshwenya Mopalamente yo o tlotlegang, Rre Ramogapi.

Fela fa gotwe go tlaa nna le sebaka sa gore go fetolelwe kwa molaong o, ke tsamaiso e ntšha, le tlaa fiwa sebaka.

Go tlaa re mo nakong eo, go bonwe gore dipolotiki tsone makgotla a tsone a ka kwadisiwa jang kwa kae, mo go yone period eo.

Ga a nke a wele fela a tlogelwa mo sebakatsatsing.


O ka nna ya re fa o tswa fa, wa ya go lekeletsa, wa ya go kwadisa e nngwe ya mmala o mosetlha, o bone fela gore a mme ga o na go kgona go kwadisa.

Ke dingwe tsa dilo tse e leng gore ga di ke di tshwenya, o se ka wa ba wa tshwenyega.

Le ya go tswelela fela le kwadisa dikereke mo tsamaisong e e leng teng, go fitlhelela molao o mosha o diragadiwa ka fa Tona a tlaabong a beile gore o tlaa diragadiwa leng.
Batswana ga ba a tshwanela go nna le letshogo lepe kana ba tsaya gore jaanong go ya go nna le phatlha e e leng gore ga e na go tswalega.

Ka go sa dieng nako Mr Chairperson, ke molao o o botlhokwa, re tlhokana le go bona gore melao e, re a fetisa, re ye go sireletsa lefatshe la rona.

Le se ka la tla la wela mo thangkgeng e re neng re e duba ya gore jaanong lefatshe la rona le bo le lejwa ka leitlho le le ntseng jang.
Re dire jalo ka gore nako yone e ntse e a tsamaya, re tlaa tloga e re re tswa fa, go bo gotwe nnyaa, le mo grey list.

Jaanong ga ke itse gore re tlaa supa mang ka monwana.

Go raya gore Mapalamente a gompieno, re bo re itshupa ka monwana fa go ka nna jalo rotlhe fela jaaka re le mo Palamenteng.

Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Ke ema Tona nokeng mo molaong o o ntseng o le teng, ga ke dumalane le Tshutiso e Honourable Ramogapi a tlang ka yone.
E se gore re mo tlhoile, re tlhoile kereke kana mang kana mang, e le tsamaiso.

Re tshwanetse gore mo nakong ya gompieno, re sale morago tsamaiso e e ka re berekelang.

Rre Ramogapi, re tlaa tla re go bona ngwaga o o tlang, re bona gore re ka dira ka tsela e e ntseng jang.

Ke a leboga.

MR HIKUAMA (NGAMI): Ke a leboga Honourable Chairperson.

Ga ke itse gore maranyane a ne a dirile eng.

Ke ne ke re let me support Tshutiso e e tlang ka Mopalamente wa Palapye, Honourable Ramogapi.
Fa re dira molao re le Mapalamente, re tshwanetse go itse gore ga re o direle gore re a bo re tenegile kana re o tsaya ka mafatlha.

Mo go buiwang gore fa o tennwe ke dikereke di nna dintsi, gongwe di gomagometsa go tsaya maloko a gago, a kwa kerekeng e o kwa go yone, go raya gore o tshwanetse o sianele kwa Palamenteng gore o thibele ba bangwe gore ba se ka ba nna le dikereke tsa bone.

Ke bona gore ke mowa fela o o tlaabong o sa siama.


Re tshwanetse re gololesege, re tlogele jaaka Molaomotheo wa lefatshe la Botswana o ntse, o re go na le freedom of association, freedom of religion.

Dilo tse motho o tshwanetse go gololesega go dira se tumelo ya gagwe e se mo letlang gore a se dire, provided ga se kgatlhanong le molao ope wa lefatshe, e bile ga se kgokgontshe ope.

Ga ke dumele gore go kwadisiwa ga kereke, a le ka tswa le le 20, le kgokgontsha mongwe.
E bo e le gore le batla go phuthega le le batho ba kereke le le ka fa molaong, le kgona go dira dilo tse di tlhokafalang ka fa molaong.

Le tlhoka go bula bank accounts, le tlhoka go bula eng, le se se batlang molao, se batla setlankana, se batla association e e kwadisitsweng.
Jaanong ga ke dumele gore kgang e e buiwang ya gore dikereke di dintsi, di ne di runya di le dintsi, go raya gore re tshwanetse go tla ka molao o e keteng re tenegile, e bile re o tsere ka mafatlha, ga re a tshwanela go nna ka tsela e e ntseng jalo.

Rona ba re emetseng batho ba ba nnang kgakala le batho ba le bantsi, kwa tennyanateng, batho ga ba kalo, mme ba a tlhokafala gore ba nne le makgotla a dikereke tsa bone tse di ka fa molaong.
Ga gotwe nna fela kwa tlase ga setlhare o sa lemogwe ke molao, o tswelele o rapele foo, ba batla… MR SALESHANDO: Elucidation.

Just very small point go supa gore kana se o se buang le fa e ka tswa mongwe a sa dumalane le Bible mme le yone e a bua kwa go Mathaio 18 verse 20 gore, ‘where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am with them’, gore go obama ga go ye ka dipalo.
Le rona ba re tswang kwa dikgaolong tse di nang le metse e mennyennyane, e e leng gore population gongwe ga e tshware 200 in the settlements, le bone ba letlelelwe gore ba ka iphutha ba register, ba nna le kereke ya bone, ka gore jaaka Mathaio 18 verse 20 a bua kereke ga se palo.

Ke a leboga.
Ke a leboga.

MR HIKUAMA: Ke sone se ke se buang Honourable Saleshando gore, tota fa motho ene a dumela ga go tlhokafale gore a ye go phutha batho ba le 150 gore a tsweledise tumelo ya gagwe… ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (MR LELATISITSWE): Elucidation.

Thank you so much Mr Speaker.


Ke ne ke re Hikuama, Mopalamente wa kwa Ngami, a mme o ka dumalana le nna gore batho ba ba kwa settlements, ke bua ke lebeletse mafoko a a neng a buiwa ke Mopalamente wa Maun Rre Saleshando, gore a o ka dumalana le nna 9 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage kana wa ganetsa gore bontsi jwa bone ba na le dikereke tse ba di tsenang?
Jaanong go nna o kare batho fa ba le kwa settlement re akanya gore ba tshwanetse gore ba tsene kereke e nngwefela.

A o ka dumalana le nna gore bangwe ba tsena dikereke tse di leng teng gale kana o ka ganetsa gore, nnyaa bao ba a kgobokanngwa fela ba batla kereke e nngwefela?

MR HIKUAMA: Nnyaa, mme ga o bue se re se buang, ga se kgang ya gore o dumalana le gore batho ba tsene kereke e nngwefela kana ba tsene tse di farologanyeng.
Kgang ke gore fa go na le ba ba batlang go itirela kereke ya bone, ba gololesege go dira jalo, ba sa patikiwe ke molao gore o batla dipalo tse di seyong kwa ba leng teng.

E bile ga re a tshwanela go ba patika gore ka le bannye le tshwanetse gore le ye kwa kerekeng e e leng teng, e sa tsamaelane le ka fa bone ba eletsang go tsamaisa kereke le tumelo ya bone ka teng.

Re tshwanetse ra ba letlelela go dira ba gololesegile ka fa ba eletsang go tsamaisa le go obamela ka teng.
E seng gore kereke e nngwe e tona e teng koo, ba e tsene fela.

Mo e tlaabo e le kgokgontsho ya tumelo… MR LUCAS: Clarification.

Honourable Hikuama, o tsibogela jang mafoko a a reng fa batho ba batla go dira kereke mme dipalo tsa bone di sa goroge 150, batho bao ba a bo ba chance?

Ga ke itse gore o a tsibogela jang mafoko ao.

MR HIKUAMA: Ke lenyatso le le seng kana ka sepe.


Fa motho ene a dumela o bo o re ke machansane, mme a dumela se a dumelang mo go sone, e bile e le gone a bonang gore golo mo ke gone mo a ka itshidilang maikutlo ka gone, a obamela, a rapela, ke lenyatso fela le e leng gore ga re a tshwanela gore fa re le mo Palamenteng re bo re ka tsaya gore gongwe tumelo ya gago e o e dumelang, le kereke ya gago e botoka mo go yo o batlang go dira e ntšha.

Golo moo ga re a tshwanela go dira jalo.


Re tshwanetse go itse gore fa re emetse mongwe le mongwe, a o dumalana le tumelo ya gagwe, a ga o dumalane le yone, o tshwanetse wa mo letlelela gore a gololesege mo lefatsheng la gaabo.

A itirele dilo tsa gagwe ka fa a ratang ka teng.

Ga ke itse gore gatwe batho mo dikerekeng tse dintsi ba tshwenngwa ke eng, ka gore fa o sa batle kereke eo, wena ga o ka ke wa ya kwa go yone.
Gape ga re a tshwanela go kgokgontsha batho gore go itsa dikereke go runya ke fa re ka dira jang.

Re tshwanetse ra rotloetsa tsamaiso e e gololesegileng, e e siameng, e e sa tliseng makgamu le dikubetsano mo dikerekeng.

Ke sone sengwe se se ka dirang gore batho ba se ka ba sia, e seng gore re re, le fa a sa itumela re mo tshware ka molao a se ka a dira kereke ya gagwe.
Se sengwe se se neng se buiwa fa ke se tsibogela, le VP ke utlwile a umaka kgang ya teng, a bua gore batho e ka tswa e le ba family e nngwefela and then they form kereke.

What is wrong with that?

Fa e le gore batho ba family eo feel gore they can form kereke ya bone, bothata jwa batho ba family e le nngwefela go itirela kereke ke eng?

E batho…(Inaudible)…even with norms and traditions.

MR TSOGWANE: Procedure.


Nnyaa rra, ga go mo tsamaisong to quote someone out of context, ga ke ise ke bo ke ame kgang ya batho ba le bangwefela e le ba lesika ba dira kereke.

Ga ke ise ke bo ke ame dipalo, ke buile fela ka gore molao o o teng, it exists, e bile ga se o re ka bong re bua ka one gompieno.

Network ya gago gongwe e ne e sa siama sentle ka koo, ga o a nkutlwa.

MR HIKUAMA: Okay, fa e le gore o a itatola go siame, mme ke utlwile Tona a rialo, ene ke mo utlwile sentle.
Fa e le gore wena ga ke a go utlwa sentle, o tlaa intshwarela ratswale.

Se sengwe se ke neng ke batla go se bua ke se o neng o se bua gape gore go builwe, wena Your Honour o buile gore go builwe ga go tlhokafale gore re bue ka selo se se builweng.

Ke tshwanelo ya Palamente e e leng teng, ka nako e e buang dikgang ka yone, ga e ka ke gatwe ya last year e kile ya bua.
Fa go na le tshwanelo ya gore re bue, re fetole se se dirilweng kana se bo se fetisiwa ka phoso, jaaka go lebega Palamente e o neng o le mo go yone e ne e le kwa tlase ga kgatelelo e fetisa le melao masigo, e ne e dira diphoso tse di seng kana ka sepe.

Phoso nngwe ke yone e le e dirileng e, go tshwanetse gore gompieno go buiwe, go baakanngwe dilo tseo.

Ka gore to limit batho gore ba kwadise kereke kana le oketsa dipalo up to 150, ke kgokgontsho.
Ga ke itse gore fa motho a itirela kereke who does he/ she offend, o rumola mang?

O gataka ditshwanelo tsa ga mang?

Ga go supafale.

Jaanong Mr Speaker, I support Tshutiso e ya ga Honourable Ramogapi gore a re e letlelele, re golole Batswana ba gololesege mo ditumelong tsa bone, le dikereke tse ba di obamang.

Ke a leboga.

MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (MS SERAME): Procedure.

Ke kopa o ntsenye mo tseleng mongwame fa ke ka tswa ke fapogile.
Mr Speaker, kana re kwa Committee Stage, mme jaanong ke bona o kare re boetse kwa stage se se fa morago.

Ga ke itse gore a ke nna ke sa e tshwareng.

I understand the importance of kgang e re e buang.

Ke re kgotsa re dumalane gore re bua re ema fa kae ka gore jaanong re lebega re boetse kwa debate.

Thank you Mr Chairperson.

10 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: We are debating whether or not the society should remain as put forward by the Minister.

That is the debate.

MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Ke a leboga Modulasetilo.

Mathata a me a matona Tona Mma Mokgethi a mo go kgethololeng kereke.
Se setona ke se, fa o ne o beile molao o re o form society jaaka o tlhalosa gone fa, go tlhokafala batho ba le 150, a bo o re tsotlhe, a bo o sa re go tlaa tlhokafala palo e e kwa tlase ya 20 mme fela fa o akanya kereke re baya level e sele.

You know, to form kereke gongwe e bile ke gone golo mo go thata ka gore o a bo o solofetsa batho se se seyong fa pele ga bone, gore ba tlaa bona botshelo jo bo botoka kwa legodimong.

Ga se selo se se motlhofo go se tlhalosa.


Jaanong fa e le gore gatwe tse di motlhofo go di tlhalosa gore o ka dira society se se buang ka dilo tsa culture, mo o bolelelang batho gore a re kopaneng re le Bayei, go motlhofo go bona batho ba le 150 o ba bitsa ka letso.

Jaanong gore ke eng le kgetholola kereke, le tshwanetse gore le re bolelele gore mabaka a a ntshitsweng ke afe ka gore a le a ntshitseng le tsamaya le siasia.

I will give you an example Mr Chairperson.


E rile Tona a tlhalosa a bo a re, re nnile le mathata bogolo jang a batho ba ba neng ba tswa kwa ntle ba form dikereke.

That is what she said.

Jaanong fa re re go siame a re ka fetola molao gore re gagamaletse setoropo ba ba tswang kwa ntle mme ba mo gae re se ka ra ba gagamaletsa setoropo a re, nnyaa le Batswana re na le mathata le bone.

O a fetoga.
Se ke se itseng ke gore bogologolo I remember ke santse ke rutiwa kwa sekoleng ka freedom of worship, go nopolwa mongwe yo e neng e le Tona gotwe Moutlwakgola Ngwako, yo o sa tlholeng a le teng mo botshelong a re, “mo Botswana, Goromente ga a na sepe gore o batla go obama ka tsela e e ntseng jang, a le obama le isitse maoto kwa godimo, a le obama le pagame ditlhare, fela fa le bona le dumalana re le fa tshwanelo eo re bo re le kwadisa.” E Domkrag ke e sele e e simololang e tswa bana ba phefo fa go buiwa ka gore batho ba ka obama.
Palo ya kereke e le tshwenya ka eng?

E tshwenya ka eng ka gore gompieno re na le Batswana ba le bantsi mo go yone Ntlo e ba ba reng Batswana ba se ka ba letlelelwa go itirela dikereke, ba e leng gore fa gotwe nako ya kobamo ba ya kwa mafatsheng a mangwe ba ya go obama teng?

Matona ba a tsamaya ba ya kgakala ba ya kwa bo Malawi.

Ga go na restriction ya dikereke kwa Malawi.

Di dintsi ka tsela e e seng kana ka sepe.


A jaanong ra re Batswana fa ba re rona a re iphuthe ka ga re kgone go pagama re ya kwa go Bushiri kwa Malawi ba kganelwe mme ba sena madi a go pagama a rona re nang nao re le Mapalamente go ya bokgakaleng jo bo kalo?

A re se ka ra nna re re mushrooming of churches.

Kana se Tona Morwaeng a se buang ke gore ene o tshwenyegile gore kereke e tswa gongwe le gongwe fela.

A re le ba e leng gore ba tlile ka mowa o montle ba batla to abuse kereke ba ka tsaya chances.
Batho ba ba tsereng chances ba ba sekang Honourable Morwaeng, ke bone ba le ba latelang kwa ntle kwa mafatsheng a sele.

Ke bone ba ba setseng ba na le ditsheko tsa go dirisa kereke go utswela batho.

Jaanong wena o na le tshwanelo…(Interruptions)… A re sa itebaganye le ba ba senang dithata tsa go latela beng ba dikereke ba ba lebaganweng ke ditsheko ka gore ke tshwanelo ya gago gore wena fa o batla go ya go obama le a fugitive yo o siileng kgatlhanong le molao o ka tsamaya.
Lesa ba ba senang dithata jaaka wena ba ba batlang go itirela tsa bone mono.

Le fa e le gore ba 20 kana 50, ga ke na mathata le kereke e e leng ya lelwapa.

Gakere business le society di kgona go nna tsa lelwapa?

Some of the big churches are family churches.

Mathata ke eng fa gotwe batho ba ne ba phutha masika a bone ba bo ba obama ba itirela kereke?

A re ba tlogeleng.

Se se teng ke gore re ka dira ditsamaiso tsa gore re netefatsa gore dikereke tse di bona madi di bo di a dirisa jang.
E seng gore re di kganele.

Domkrag, tswang mo moweng wa go tshosiwa ke dikereke.

Fa le bona mo Botswana go le motlhofo go simolola bara gona le go simolola kereke, nnyaa lebati la boutlwelobotlhoko go raya gore mo maDomkrageng le tswetswe.

Ke support Honourable Ramogapi Mr Chairperson.

Ke a leboga.

INFRASTRUCTURE AND MINISTER OF HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Ke a leboga Modulasetilo e bile ke a go dumedisa le batlotlegi botlhe.

Ga ke eme mogopolo wa ga Motlotlegi Ramogapi nokeng.
Pele ga ke ka bua, ke gore debate e e fa e confuses to register le kgololesego ya go obama.

Mongwe le mongwe o gololesegile go obama.

Re tshwanetse ra itse gore go kwadisa go a bo go direlwa mabaka mangwe a a rileng, a gore go kgone go laolwa fa e le gore ba ba obamang bao, e re ntswa ba dirisa ditshwanelo tsa bone, ba tlaabo ba tsuolola tsa ba bangwe.
Makgoa ba re, “your rights end as far as your nose ends.” Jaanong fa o le Puso o tshwanetse gore o kwadise sepe fela se e leng gore a e nna mokgatho kana 11 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage eng gore e tle e re fa go bonala gore tsamaiso ya se o se kwadisitseng seo e tsoulolwa ke bangwe kana ba tsuolola tsamaiso ya ba bangwe, go kgone go nna le taolo.
Ba ba sa ikwadisang go dira gore kwa tshimologong fela ba gakololwe ba bo ba lebelelwe gore tsamaiso e le mo go yone, e e bileng le sa ikwadisang e tshwanetse go ema.

Mo go e e ikwadisitseng go a bo go na le melawana e e supang gore mme fa o ikwadisitse o tshwanetse wa dira se le se le se.

Kana ke yone tsamaiso ya puso ya batho ka batho eo.

Mo tsamaisong ya puso ya batho ka batho… HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of clarification Mr Chairperson.
MR MOLALE: Nnyaa Rre Hikuama, o ntse o bua ga ke ise ke go tsene ganong.

Mo tsamaisong ya batho ka batho e gotweng go na le kgololesego, kgololesego ga e kgone go lekanngwa le boithatelo.

Ke selo sa ntlha.

Selo sa bobedi ke dipalo jaaka Mothusa Tautona a bua.

Dipalo tse were debated ka boleele, mme e bile go ne go na le morero.
Jaanong ga ke itse gore fa re sa tswa go fetsa morero e bile molao o beilwe re bo re re re a o fetola ka bofefo jo bo kanakana, e bile go ise go nne le bosupi jwa gore dikgoreletsi tsa teng di bontsi bo kae kgotsa di tsoulola ditshwanelo tsa batho fa kae, re bo re re re a fetola, ga se gone.
Ga ke dumalane le tshwetso eo ka gore fa re dira jalo, we will not be having firm position as a Government gore re kgone go dira dilo tse e leng gore re lekalekanya ditshwanelo tsa batho ka fa ba batlang go dira dilo ka teng le ka fa tsamaiso e tshwanetseng go nna ka teng.

A re se ke ra tlhakatlhakanya dilo tse.

Ga go na Puso epe ya ga Domkrag e e ilang dikereke.
E bile mo godimo ga moo, ba dikereke ba ne ba bua nako ya fa go fetolwa palo e gore nnyaa, o kare jaanong kereke di runya gongwe le gongwe fela mme e bile bontsi jwa dikereke tseo go na le abuse mo go tsone, e re se ka keng ra e bua fa.

Jaanong fa ba sa kwadisiwa, abuse eo ga e ka ke ya lemogwa sentle.
Go tshwanetse gore go dirwe ka tsela e e leng gore batho e re ntswa ba obama e bile ba gololesega go obama, go tshwanetse ga nna le tsamaiso e ba tshwanetseng go e sala morago e e lekalekanyang ditshwanelo tsa bone le tsa batho ba bangwe ba ba seng mo mekgatlhong ya bone.

Kgang ya bobedi Modulasetilo, ga ke tlhaloganye gore Tshutiso e ka go kwala maina a diphathi tsa sepolotiki, e solve eng gotlhelele?

Kana mo tsamaisong ya go dira molao, Schedule ke bontlha bongwe jwa molao, ga se regulation.
Jaanong fa o dirile Schedule, e le bontlha bongwe jwa molao, e re kamoso ene Rre Ramogapi a bo a batla go kwadisa party, a bo gotwe nnyaa, tse di mo Schedule, ke tsone fela tse di letlelelwang, unless re ya to amend molao.

Ga ke bone solution epe mo go se se lekwang go dirwa.

Ke ne ke re, a re tlogeleng fela jaaka go ntse mo draft Bill e re e buang gompieno, re se ka ra leka go tsietsa batho re re re dira Schedule se e leng gore e tlaa nna e re fa go kwadisiwa, e bo batho go kgona go kwadisiwa motlhofo.
Re a thatafatsa fa re dira jalo.

Ga se gone mo re ka go dirang, ka gore fa re dira jalo, re tlaabo re thatafatsa, re dira gore nako le nako fa go batla go kwadisiwa party, go tle to amend molao and Schedule.

Modulasetilo, ga ke bone …(Interruptions)… Rre Ramogapi a boele Tshutiso e ya gagwe morago, a se ka a tloga …(Interruptions)… Ke a leboga Modulasetilo.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR MOLAO): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.
Ke tla bua ka bokhutshwane ka e ya dikereke, ke tlogele ya diphathi, ga ke na maikaelelo a go kwadisa phathi anytime soon.

Kgang e ya dikereke, ka 2016 Tona wa lephata ka nako eo Rre Batshu, o e bileng e le moruti, o ne a dira puisanyo le makgotla a dikereke le setšhaba mo Kgotla meetings.

E le gore makgotla a dikereke le setšhaba ka kakaretso, ba ne ba ntshitse ngongora ya gore dikereke di runya gongwe le gongwe, di a thubega, ga di a itshetlela, go a lowa, dilo di a senyega.
E ne ya re a buisana le one makgotla a dikereke, ga felela go welwa kwa palong ya 150, gore fa re re kereke ke kereke, gore e kwadisiwe e le kereke, e bo e na le maloko a le 150.

Palo ya ntlha e e neng e builwe, bangwe ba ne ba bua ka bo 500.

E ne ya buisanngwa mo Palamenteng, ga bo ga dumalanwa gore mme a good compromise, a e ye kwa go 150.

Gone mo go sa reye jaaka bakaulengwe ba bua, fa o le kwa settlement e nnye, o kganelwa go rapela, nnyaa.
Le fa o le nosi, o kgona go rapela, o a letlelesega, e bile ga go na ope yo o ka reng ke eng o rapela o sa kwadisa kereke.

Dilo tse re tshwanetse ra di kgaoganya gore go rapela le go kwadisa kereke, ke dilo tse pedi tse di sa tshwaneng.

Batho ba le babedi ba kgona go rapela, jaaka go ne go nopolwa gotwe Mathaio e bua jalo, ee, e bua ka go rapela, e seng ka go kwadisa kereke.
Jaanong a re se ka ra etsaetsega, ra bo ra itaya batho tsebe gore fa ba rapela ba le babedi, ba tlaabo ba le molato, gotwe ga le kereke, ga le ka ke la rapela ka gore go a letlelesega gore o le nosi, a o kwa lwapeng kana fa kae, le ka rapela le le babedi, mme le sa ipitse gore le kereke.

Le ene Modimo o amogela dithapelo tse di ntseng jalo.

12 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage Ke dumela gore molao jaaka o tsentswe ka 2016, fa go na le kgang, jaaka e le gore re batla go kwadisa dikereke mme re a kganelwa re a palelwa, le makgotla a dikereke a a leng teng ka go farologana ga one, ba ka bo ba setse ba tlisitse dingongora tsa gore jaanong re a imelwa.

Batho ba batla go kwadisa dikereke, a re lebalebeng molao o sesha.
Ga ke dumele go na le any representation as we speak e e tswang mo makgotleng a dikereke kana mo setšhabeng ka kakaretso.Fa re ntse re tsamaya mo Mr Chairperson, re buisa Kgotla meetings, re etela le tsone dikereke, ga ke itse gongwe go a diragala kwa dikgaolong tse dingwe, mme kwa kgaolong e ke tswang kwa go yone, ga ke ise ke utlwe any representation mo setšhabeng kana Kgotla meetings gotwe fokotsang palo ya 150 le ise kwa go 20, re batla go kwadisa dikereke.
If anything, dikereke tse di teng, molao o o di tliseditse stability go gaisa nako e go neng go tliwa fela.

Go na le kgang e e builweng ya gore re ka kgetholola foreigners ra tlogela Batswana.

Ga ke dumele gore re batla go wela gone koo ka gore gompieno, ga go na se se tlaabong se kganela gore Motswana a kwadise kereke, a e kwadisetsa a foreign pastor yo o batlang go tla go e dirisa as a vehicle to abuse.
Rre Molale o kile a feta ka tsone abuses tse tsa go tseela batho madi ka tsela e e seng yone ya seporofiti ke dikereke tse di setseng di runya gongwe le gongwe.

Go ne go dirwa as a Government response to crisis ya setšhaba gore batho ba jelwa madi ka boherehere jwa dikereke tse di runyang e se ka fa molaong.

Dikereke di a phatlalala ka gore go motlhofo fela go kwadisa kereke.
Fa motho e le motiakone, a batla go nna moruti a ise a wele mo tseleng ya go nna moruti, nnyaa, o kgaoganya batho, o tsamaya le ba gagwe o ya go dira kereke koo.

Fa yo mongwe a sa utlwane le moruti wa gagwe, le ene o tswa fela o ya go dira kereke koo.

Ga ke dumele gore ke yone thulaganyo e Rre Ramogapi a e eletsang gore nnyaa, go se ka ga nna le stability mo dikerekeng, tsa itshetlela.
Fa ke sa utlwane le moruti ke bo ke tsaya setlhopha same sa batho ba le 20, ke ya go itirela kereke, fa gongwe go lwelwa madi a kereke.

Molaomotheo wa lefatshe le o a letla gore batho ba ka obama gongwe le gongwe fa ba batlang teng.
Ke gatelele Mr Chairperson gore 150 o jaaka re bua, ga go tewe gore e bo e le branch jwa motse mongwe o o rileng, bo nne 150, jo bongwe 150, kereke e kgona go nna nngwefela e bitswa ka leina la yone, mme gore e kwadise, e tsaya maloko lefatshe lotlhe la Botswana, a bo e nna kereke.

Fa e le gore branch jo bo kwa Mogoditshane bo na le batho ba le 20 fela, Shakawe 15, jalojalo, ga le ka ke la kganelwa go obama gotwe mo branch jwa lona jwa kereke ya bolebelebe le 30 fela ka palo.

Ke dilo tse di leng teng.


MR MOSWAANE: Clarification.

O e tshwere sentle, mme e kare mathata a dikereke, kana go bua ka dikereke, go bua batho ba ba sa tseneng dikereke thata.

A mme o tlhaloganya gore seemo sa kwadiso ya kereke, go tshwanetse ga tla moruti pele a le nosi, ke ene a tshwanetseng go phutha batho ba e seng ba kereke go ba kwadisa, ka gore ga o ka ke wa nna kereke before you gather members, mme ga o letlelelwe go ka phutha batho ba nna kereke o ise o ba kwadise.
Jaanong selo se, o a lemoga gore dibara di thubega malatsi otlhe, go dirwa e ntsha, ga go na bothata, business… MR MOLAO: Nnyaa, ke go utlwile rra, ga ke itse gore kereke le bara di amana fa kae.

Ke mongwe wa batho ba ba tsenang kereke, ba ba dumelang, mme ga ke tsamaye mo tseleng mo ke ipitsa moruti ke se moruti, mme kereke, ke a e tsena.

Ga go na fa e kareng ke bua ka kereke teng, ka e amanya le bara teng.
Se ke se buang ke gore, motho yo o kwadisang kereke, o letlelelwa gore o ka rapela, o ka phutha maloko, ba lekana palo e e batliwang, ba bo ba ya go kwadisa kereke.

Ga go ise gotwe, ga le ka ke la phuthagana ka fa tlase ga setlhare sele, kana la adima classroom la nna 150 la rapela, le bo le dira thulaganyo ya go ya go ikwadisa, molao ga o a kwalwa jalo.

Ga go na fa gotweng fa o le moruti… ...Silence...

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Molao!

...Silence...

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Lelatisitswe!


Sethomo HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga a yo.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… ...Silence...

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Moswaane.

MR MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST): Tanki Mr Chairperson.

Ke tlhalose jaana Mr Chairperson, goreng nna fa Mapalamente botlhe ba ne ba nkutlwa, e bile ba itse gore fa gotwe kereke go buiwa ka ga eng, ke ka bo ke re gongwe ka bongwefela jwa pelo, re dumalane le Tshutiso ya ga Honourable Ramogapi.
13 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage Tshutiso e e tsile morago ga lebaka, re e ngangile mo Palamenteng ka 2016, mme botlhoko jwa yone, you can register dikompone di le 1,000 ka letsatsi, but baphuthegi fa ba re re batla go ipitsa ka leina le, re rapele re phuthologile re le 20 fa bokete, gatwe you cannot register.

Fa batho ba phuthegile ba le 50 ba re re batla go rapela re ikwadisetse kereke ya rona re le 50, gatwe you cannot register.
Fa ba tshwara 100 you cannot register, the number is 150.

Mo tsamaisong ya bodumedi, go tla the preacher pele, moreri wa lefoko a le nosi, a sokolole ba bangwe, a batle ba le bantsi.

Re bona e le gore ke sebe gore motho jaanong a tsamaye a kopa batho mo seterateng e se badumedi ba kereke ya gagwe, gore ba mo direle signature gore a ye go kwadisa kereke.

Ke sebe mo tsamaisong ya bodumedi.


Le gone gape re bona gompieno motho a kgona gore a latele batho kwa lebaleng la bolo le kwa dibareng a ba kope gore ba mo saenele a batla palo ya 150.

Molao ga o a tla o siame, o tsile ka goreng dikereke dingwe tse ditona di ne di sa rate go bona di tseelwa maloko ke tse di nnyennyane, ba di bitsa ba re ke breakaway groups, jaanong ba bo ba dirisa lefoko gore churches are mushrooming.

It is an insult to God go dirisa lefoko le o reng churches are mushrooming.
Baebele ya re, “a go gole gotlhe, go tlaa bonwa ka motlha wa go rojwa.” A re lesang batho ba tle kwa go nna, go nne bogosi jwa legodimo ke jwa bone.

Jaanong fa e le gore o Mopalamente yo o sa itseng sepe ka boModimo, o bo o tla go baya molao mo Palamenteng gore ga le ka ke la kwadisa kereke le le less than 150, o ganetsanya le se tsamaiso ya baruti e se buang.

Ke a dumela gore bangwe ba re go ne go tsogile medumo mo dikerekeng.
Kwa dikomponeng modumo o tsogile, I can go and register my own company ke bo ke emela fale, go bo go tla go atlhola business gore ya reng.

Kwa dikerekeng, medumo e tsogile, fa ke tshwanetse gore jaanong ke ye go ikatlholela ke simolole lefoko lame ke rere, ba le 10 e nne bame, go simolola go bewa melao ka gore motho a re ke mo tseela phuthego.
Kana dikereke tse dingwe tse di tona, they are aligned to babusi ka tsamaiso e e leng gore le mo Baebeleng go ne go na le dikereke tse di tona tse di neng di ganetsa kereke ya ga Jeso Keresete gore Jeso Keresete o tla ka palo potlana, ga a ka ke a bo a ipitsa moruti.

Jaanong mo nakong ya gompieno, re bona Puso e re dikereke tsa palo potlana ga re di amogele, re batla tse di tlang ka masomosomo a batho fela, ke tsone tse re ka di kwadisang.

Golo mo fa pele ga borapedi... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.
MR MOSWAANE: Rraetsho, tsena ee.

of MR KEORAPETSE: Point clarification.

Mokaulengwe, ke ne ke re ke a botsa gore, a mme o raya gore re lefatshe le le tlaabong le tsamaisa sentle gore go nne bonolo go kwadisa bara gona le go kwadisa kereke?

O raya gore re ka nna mo tsamaisong e e leng gore go thata ya lentswe go kwadisa kereke, mme go bonolo go kwadisa bara?
Gape jaanong those at the settlements ba e leng gore fa e le gore batho ba teng palo ya bone gongwe ke 200, ba le 50 ke ba Lontone, ba le 50 ke Baroma, jaanong ba ba setseng fa ba re ba a ipopa gore ba kwadise kereke, kana palo ya bone e tlaabo e tlhaelela kgakala.

Gatwe bone bao ba dire ka tsela e e ntseng jang gore ba kgone go kwadisa kereke?

MR MOSWAANE: Ke gore fela ke ka e tlhalosa ka bokhutshwane gore ke boleo go gana go kwadisa batho ba le 50 go nna kereke.
Ke boleo fa pele ga Modimo, mo bodumeding, e bile ke bo boi jwa gore fa o na le kereke ya batho ba le 1, 000, yo mongwe fa batho ba dumela mo go wena a go gaisa ka thero...(silence)… e etla e sa utlwale sentle Mr Speaker, network is very poor.

MR CHAIRPERSON: ...(Inaudible)... MR MOSWAANE: Ke ne ke re fa e le gore Batswana gongwe le gongwe kwa ba leng teng ba a nkutlwa, ke tlhalose gore rraetsho ...(silence)… e etla e sa utlwale Morena.

MR KEORAPETSE: Tswelela General o a utlwala.


MR MOSWAANE: E etla e sa utlwale Morena.

MR RAMOGAPI: O a utlwala, bua.

MR MOSWAANE: Ke ne ke re ke boleo thata gore re bo re ka iphitlhela re le Palamente ya lefatshe la Botswana re beela dikereke melao.

Le gone kwa lephateng la ga Tona, o tlhophile baruti bangwe ba ba tona go bereka le ene gore ba kgoreletse tsamaiso ya dikeretse tse di potlana.

Golo mo ke go kgoreletsa bodumedi.


Mongwe a re ee, go kwadisa go botlhokwa, le rona ra re go botlhokwa, mme ra re palo a e nne e e letlelesegang ya gore mongwe le mongwe ba group of 20 jaaka other societies, ba ikwadise.

Ga se boleo fa pele ga Modimo go nna le dikereke tse di ntsi, mme re bona go nna le the social ills; fa ke kwadisa dibara di le 1000 go nna le the 14 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage social ills, go nna le yo o boelwang e le wa bara.

What is wrong if we register 1000 churches e bo e le gore batho ba rutwa lefoko la Modimo?

Gakere motho fa a senya a utswa madi mo kerekeng, go na le gore kereke e mo kgaole, e mo sekise, fela jaaka a senya kwa kgwebong ya gago, o na le gone gore o mo sekise, o mo kgaole mo tirong.

Ke eng fa le tlaa beela dikereke melao lona le se bakereki, e bile le se badumedi, le le babusi fela?
Nnyaa, tswayang mo kgannyeng ya dikereke, dikereke di itsamaise, di ipeele melao.

MR MOSWAANE: Nna mokaulengwe Motlotlegi Mopalamente, ke a ba rapela mo leineng le le maatla la Jeso Keresete gore a ba bulele kereke e kwadisiwe ka 20 fela jaaka mekgatlho e mengwe.

Go sa direng jalo, le tlaabo le ipeile ka fa mosing wa go ila kereke.

Le tlaabo le ipeile ka fa mosing wa go supa gore le nyefola kereke ka tsamaiso ya yone, e bile le kgoreletsa badumedi go ka kopana ba le 20, 30 ba le 50 mo go rapeleng.
Seemo se ke ka se tshwantshanya fela le mo goreng fa re baya ditsha tsa dibara...

Le tlaa intshwarela Mapalamente, ke a itse gore re tshela jang ba rotlhe ba.

Molao o se o nkutlwisang botlhoko ka one, batho ba ba utlwanang le go nwa bojalwa thata, ke bone ba ba o etelelang pele gore a di nne 150, ba ba sa batleng go nwa, ba a dumalana thata gore nnyaa, a re baakanyetseng dikereke di kwadisiwe.

Jaanong gone mo, ke bone e le gore batho ba ba utlwanang le bojalwa, ba bogisa dikereke.
Ke ne ke re golo mo a go baakanngwe.

Ke a itse gore Tona will maintain his stand a ema a gagamala, mme a itse gore nna ke le Moswaane gone fa, ke kile ka roba digalase tsame into two pieces ke mmontsha gore molao o fa o ka tswelela ka one, Domkrag ga e ka ke ya nna le 10 years e busa, e ya go ema mo tseleng, re e kgaolela matsatsi a go busa.

MR RAMOGAPI: Elucidation.

MR MOSWAANE: Tsena rraetsho.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Ramogapi.

MR RAMOGAPI: Point of elucidation.

Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.


O gatelele ntlha e nngwe ya botlhokwa Honourable Moswaane gore, kana maabane fela jaana Puso yone e ya ga Domkrag, e ne e gaketse fela e re nnyaa, palo e e siameng, e batho ba tshwanetseng gore ba obamele Modimo go ka se ke go kgoreletsanye le bolwetse, ke 50.

Ba eme fela ka 50 gotwe kereke go tsena 50, jaanong mpolelele gompieno gore jaanong fa gotwe go kwadisa gore o nne le kereke, 50 yole jaanong ba mo fetogetse.
Ke gore fa go bogisiwang kereke teng gore dipalo di ye kwa tlase, ba a rata ba re 50, mme nako yone eo, o gakologelwe gape gore bara yone e ne e sa beelwa dipalo tsa 50.

E ne e le gore nnyaa, batho ba ka tsena fela ba le bantsi mo bareng go sena palo epe e e beilweng mo kgwebong, kereke ele yone fela e beetsweng palo, go supa gore batho ba ba tlhoile kereke tota.

Le ka COVID-19 ba ne ba ntse ba e tlhoile fela, mme ba ntse ba ba raya ba re rapelelang bolwetse jo jwa COVID-19.
Ke gore ba ba itse fela ba batla merapelo.

O e gatelele ntlha e comrade.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Moswaane, be careful about repetition, we have heard that argument from yourself and other members, and you are repeating it.

MR MOSWAANE: Okay sir.

E ne e le yone emphasis ya debate ya rona ya Palamente, gore re le ba re dumelang mo go Keresete, e bile re le activists, re dumela thata gore golo fa go na le sekgoreletsi.
Ke supe gore bodumedi jone bo tshwanetse jwa elwa tlhoko, e bile jwa laolwa ka tsamaiso.

Re na le batho ba media, they are self-regulated.

Re na le ba Engineers Registration Board, they are self-regulated.

Le lona Matona tswang mo dikerekeng.

Le beye gore re nne self-regulated, lefoko la Modimo le gole jaaka re solofela.
Ga re a tshwanela go baya gore dikereke di siame fela ka ngwaga wa ditlhopho, e re fa ditlhopho di tsena re a khukhutha le ka mangole re lekana le dikhudu, fela fa ditlhopho di feta re a phurulala re tshwana le nonyane e e fa e tonatona ya peacock, re itshupa gore jaanong thata e mo go rona.

Dilo tse re tshwanetse re supe gore ga tsamaelane le sedumedi se re mo go sone sa Jesus Christ.

Le ba Muslim, Hindu Society le Bahai le badumedi ba bangwe fela ba kaekae, ga ba batle gore bodumedi bo kgokgontshiwe.
A jalo, re tlogeleleng Baebele tsamaiso ya yone, e se ka ya beelwa molao wa gore le nna kereke fela fa le le 150, mme o ntse o itse gore mo tsamaisong eo, go tla moruti pele a kgobokanya batho a bo a kwadisa, a godisa lefoko la Modimo a bo a kgobokanya batho.

Ke sone se ke neng ke re ke se akgele gore, ke a itse gore re tlaa tlhoka lesego mo dipalong fa go setse gotwe go a tlhophiwa, re tlhopha ka seemo sa gore phathi ya reng.

Gakologelwang gore Modimo ga a mo dipalong tse dintsi, o mo boammaaruring.
Le lona ba kganetso fa ba ka le latlha mo Tshutisong nngwe, le beye dikgang tsotlhe mo Modimong, ga se gore ga a bone, Modimo o a bona e bile o a utlwa.

A re ba feng sebaka ba buse, five years a wele, Batswana ba tlaa tsaya tshwetso 15 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage mo godimo ga matlhomola otlhe a a diragetseng.
Le gone re se ka ra roga ope, re se ka ra ba felela pelo, re beyeng mabaka a rona re tlhamaletse gore re batla gore go diragale eng mo Pusong ya rona.

A dikereke di bulelwe, lefoko la Modimo le rerwe.

Family fa o batla go kwadisa ba le 20, ba kwadise, bale ba kwadise, kana ga ba senyetse ope…(Interruptions)… MR CHAIRPERSON: …(Inaudible)… MR MOSWAANE: …e bile ga ba tseye madi a ga mang yo o ganang ba ikwadisa.

Yo o yang kwa kerekeng, ke yo o dumetseng mo kerekeng.
Yo o dumelang gore a kolekele kereke ya ga Bushiri he is doing fine, a e kolekele.

Yo o dumelang go kolekela ya gore... Rra?

MR CHAIRPERSON: I am removing you from the floor, you are repetitive.

MR MOSWAANE: Go rileng morena?

MR CHAIRPERSON: You are repetitive, I am taking away the floor from you.

Honourable Mmolotsi!

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Chairperson, ke ne ka kgaoga.

MR MOSWAANE: E tseyeng, ke ya lona ee.

MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.
Ke simolole ka go supa gore mo Palamenteng e ke moemedi wa Francistown South, e le batlhophi ba ba ntlhophileng, mme gape ke moemedi wa Modimo gone fa.

Ke Mopalamente yo o emetseng legodimo.

Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo Mr Chairperson, ke supe gore Tshutiso e ya ga Honourable Ramogapi, ke tshwanelwa ke gore ke supe ka pelo le mowa gore ke Tshutiso e e tshwanetseng gore Palamente e e sekegele tsebe.
Ke bua se Mr Chaiperson ka gore, fa o lebelela seemo sa boitshwaro jwa bana ba rona kwa dikoleng le jwa setšhaba fela in general, o kgona go lemoga gore re tlhoka go dira go gaisa gore re rotloetse batho gore ba tsene mo dikerekeng, ba dumele mo Modimong, ba tle ba kgone gore ba dire dilo ka tsela e e siameng.

Moral decadence wa lefatshe la Botswana mo nakong ya gompieno, o tlhoka Modimo mo go feteletseng.
Ke sone se ke dumelang gore Goromente mo seemong se, o tshwanelwa ke gore gona le gore a bo a eme ka dinao go leka go fokotsa dikereke, they should be campaigning ka sengwe le sengwe se a ka se kgonang gore dikereke di gole ka dipalo, mongwe le mongwe fa go kgonagala e nne leloko la kereke nngwe, ka gore re a itse gore kereke e aga boitsholo jwa setšhaba, kereke e aga motho, e dira boitsholo jo bo siameng mo mothong.
Ke tshwenngwa ke batho ba ba batlang go gana e bile ba batla go itsa gore selo se se siameng se ...(Inaudible)… Goromente yo ke dumelang gore o dumalana le gore re tlhoka gore re nne setšhaba se se siameng, o tlhoka go nna le thotloetso e ntsi mo go reng dikereke fa e le sengwe di oketsege, because at the end of the day, I think what we want to achieve ke gore re nne le batho ba ba kwa dikerekeng ba le bantsi, re itse gore ke gone kwa motho a betliwang teng.
Re ka ya kgakala fa re ka iphitlhela re dirile dilo ka tsela e e ntseng jalo.

Ga ke dumalane le mabaka a a ntshiwang ke bo Honourable Molao, a bo gore motho fa a le nosi o kgona gore a rapele, motho ga a idiwe go rapela, mme re ntse re itse le gore Modimo o ne o bua gore re tshwanelwa ke gore re a ne re kopana le ba bangwe re rapela mmogo.
Golo mo ke gone mo batho ba kgothatsanang, le yo o neng a batla go boela kwa morago mo tumelong, fa ba kopane le ba bangwe ba le bantsi, ba kgona go kgothatsana ba ya kwa pele ka tumelo ya bone, ba kgona go thusana le go agana.

Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, ke ipotsa gore, ke motho wa mofuta mang yo o sa eletseng gore go nne le dikereke tse batho ba ka tsenang mo go tsone.

People are talking sense, ba bua gore go raya gore kwa settlements batho ga ba dipalo tse di kalokalo.
Jaanong ra re batho fa e le gore kwa settlements ba 50, mme ba tsere tshwetso ya gore ba age kereke… HONOURABLE MEMBER: O itse settlement?

MR MMOLOTSI: …ba age ka madi bone, go nne le mathata.

No, it should not be like that.

Fela jaaka o bona batho ba kgona gore ba dire teams tsa bolo letsatsi le letsatsi, ga gona motho who discourages formation ya team ya bolo.

Tafic kana Matjimenyega e thubega, ba bangwe ba ya go itirela team, that is never a problem.
Fa Township Rollers e thubega, ba bangwe ba ya go itirela team, is never a problem, but it is a problem fa batho ba thubega ba batla go itirela kereke e nngwe.

Why should it be a problem?

Why do we not encourage it, gore gona le gore o ye go nna kwa lwapeng o sa dumalane le tsamaiso ya kereke e o ntseng mo go yone, go botoka gore o ye go dira kereke e nngwe gore o kgone go ngokela batho ba bangwe mo kerekeng ya gago.
That as a Government I think we must encourage, e seng gore jaanong re bo re ipolelela gore batho ba tswa kwa ntle, ba tlile go tsietsa 16 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage Batswana.

Ga gona Motswana ope yo o tsiediwang, fa e le gore mongwe Motswana o a tsiediwa, go itsietsa ene.
Batho mongwe le mongwe o na le tumelo ya gagwe e e sa tshwanelwang ke to judge it, because at the end of the day, ke Modimo fela yo o nang le thata ya gore o ka atlhola (judge) motho.

Fa e le gore ke le Wynter Mmolotsi ke tsere tshwetso ya gore mo kerekeng e ke e tsenang ke batla go neela moruti ntlo ya me kana koloi, ke ka fa ke dumelang gore ke tshwanetse gore ke dire ka teng.
I do not think I should be micromanaged by Government, a mpolelela gore ke dire eng ka madi a me, a ke neele kereke ya me moneelo, ntlo kana koloi, no, that is my choice.

Fa ke batla go dira jalo, allow me to do that, you should understand that I am mature enough, I am an adult, ke kgona go itseela ditshwetso ka fa ke batlang ka teng.

Why should Government be concerned gore ke dira eng ka madi a me.
Ke eng Goromente a tshwanelwa ke gore e re fa ke ntsha moneelo kwa kerekeng, a bo a re ke a jewa, e le tumelo ya me ke dumela gore moneelo o o ya go mpulela ditsela ka fa o tlaa mpulelang ditsela ka teng.

Ke kopa gore Goromente yo a ikgakologelwe sentle.

A a gakologelwe le jaaka re ne re ya kwa ditlhophong, Motlotlegi Tautona Dr Masisi a le mo Francistown, a tsamaya a khukhutha ka mangole a nna mo mmung, a kopa tlhopho mo bathong ba ditumelo, go supa gore ke motho yo o dumalanang le Modimo.
Ke batla gore Goromente o a etse jaaka Motlotlegi Kgotla Autlwetse, o ne a tlile mo kgaolong ya me ka lerato le le kana la go rata kereke, a tlile mo tirong ya kereke.

Jaaka Honourable Mma Serame maloba a ne a le mono, go supa fa a rata kereke.

I think re le Goromente, we should move in that direction.

A re ipotseng gore ke eng other societies le sena mathata fela le tsone, e bo ka kereke e le gone fa re emang ka dinao re re re batla 150.
Mme e bile molao o kana wa re, e re fa o ntse o batla 150 o pele ga o kwadisa, o se ka wa ba wa fitlhelwa o rapela le ba bangwe le ise le kwadise kereke, o tshwanelwa ke gore o kwadise kereke pele, pele ga le ka rapela.

Dilo tse di ntseng jaana o kgona go bona gore, we are dealing with a Government e e sa batleng Modimo gotlhelele, anti-Christ.
Goromente yo tota a lwang le Bakeresete ka ditsela tsotlhe tse e leng gore... MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Mmolotsi, we are dealing with the definition of “society” as proposed by the Honourable Member for Palapye.

MR MMOLOTSI: Ee rra.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Let us stop being extraneous.

MR MMOLOTSI: Okay, Mr Chairperson.

Jaanong ke sone Mr Chairperson, ke reng molao o fela le ka nako e o neng o tla mo Palamenteng, I had a problem le one.
Ke sone se ke dumalanang le Honourable Ramogapi gore rraetsho, tota palo ya 20 ke yone e e siameng.

Fa e ne e le nna, e bile ke ka bo ke rile fa ba babedi ba kgobokaneng teng, wa boraro ke nna ke le Keresete mme ka gore Honourable Ramogapi has tabled an amendment e a reng 20, ke dumalana le yone mme ke ne ke kopa bagaetsho gore tota re hupeditse bakeresete le kereke.
A ko re leke go dumalana le Honourable Ramogapi gore re leke go baakanya thulaganyo e, re tle re kgone gore dikereke fa go tlhokafala, I am not ashamed of this, di oketsege letsatsi le letsatsi.

Kwa bofelong jwa letsatsi, ke dumela gore re tlhoka to arrest this moral decay e re e bonang mo society, re tlhoka gore dikereke di nne dintsi to campaign, di senke batho, ba tsene mo go tsone, ba di age, ba age setšhaba so that we can have a Botswana yo o pharologanyo.
Ke ne ke bua gore schools right now tse di eteletsweng pele ke Honourable Molao di mo mathateng a a gakgamatsang ka gore o kgona go bona gore bana Modimo o dule mo go bone.

Thulaganyo ya dikereke ke yone fela e e ka agang bone bana ba, ba itse gore tse ba di dirang kwa dikoleng, ke dilo tse di maswe ka gore re le botsadi, o kare re palelwa thatathata ke go aga bana ba rona.
Ke ne ke solofetse gore Tona wa Thuto e leng Rre Molao, re le mo mathateng a a kana, o tshwanelwa ke gore o ka bo a re eteletse pele mo go boneng gore jaanong tota ke tshwanelwa ke go buelela kereke gore bongwanake ba ke leng Tona wa bone, ba kgone gore ba agage.

Ka mafoko a a kalo Mr Chairperson, ke ne ke re o re kopele Mapalamente ba ba lebegang ba le kgatlhanong le thulaganyo gore ba gakologelwe gone gore fa ngwana a tsholwa o a rapelelwa, Modimo o a bo a le teng a lalediwa.
Fa ngwana a nyalwa, moruti o foo o a lalediwa.

Fa motho a tlhokafala a tsena mo mmung labofelo, moruti o foo, kereke e foo e a mmuledisa.

Dilo tse dingwe tse societies di a bong di seyo mo nakong e, o kgona go bona gore se se nang le mosola mo botshelong jwa motho fa a goroga le kwa bofelong, ke kereke le Keresete fela.
Jaanong ka mafoko a a kalo Mr Chairperson, ke dumalana le Honourable Ramogapi e bile ke a rapela mo nakong ya gompieno gore Modimo a tshware tlhogo ya mongwe le mongwe yo o kgatlhanong le se.

A e 17 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage tsenye mo tseleng ya gore mo letsatsing la gompineo re age setšhaba sa Botswana ka kereke.
Modimo a sokolole mongwe le mongwe yo o kgatlhanong le Tshutiso e mo letsatsing la gompieno gore ga go na botshelo bope jo bo fetang tshalo Modimo morago.

Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo Mr Chairperson, ke ne ke kopa gore re se ka ra trivialise this Bill, re e tseye ka tsela e re batlang go e tsaya ka teng.
Gape re se ka ra nyatsa le bone ba ba tsereng ditshwetso tsa gore ba batla go tsena kana go ikamanya le dikereke tse di rileng, re akanya gore re botlhale go le gaisa, re ka ba tseela ditshwetso tsa gore a tsa bone di siame kana ga di a siama.

Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo Mr Chairperson, I support this amendment as proposed by Honourable Member of Palapye, Honourable Ramogapi.

MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR MOLAO): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson, ke ne ka kgaoga motlakase o kgaogile.
Ke soboke mafoko a me ke wetse Mr Chairperson, fa o ntetla.

Ke supa gone gore tota fela se se buiwang ka molao o, ga go kganelwe kwadiso ya dikereke, ga go kganelwe gore dikereke di ka nna dintsi, kgang fela e ne e le ya gore go tshwanetse gore go nne le taolo ya gore dikereke fa di ikwadisa, go se ka ga nna le go thubega kgapetsakgapetsa ga dikereke mo go neng go bonala go diragala, mo go neng badumedi ba dikereke le bone ba go ngongoregela.
Ke yone kgang fela e e buiwang fa mo molaong o. Ke batla go soboka mafoko ke rialo ke re, ga ke dumalane le Tshutiso e bile ke dumela gore mafoko a mokaulengwe yo o ntseng a bua fa tota, ke mafoko a dinyao, ga se mafoko a a nang le boammaaruri gore tota fa e le gore Goromente go ka twe a campaign for proliferation of churches all over the place, ke gore e tlaabo e le Goromente wa mofuta mang yo o ka emang fela a campaign gore nnyaa, lona dikereke bo Roma, Lontone, Spiritual, thubegang go nne makgamukgamunyana a dikereke all over the place, ke gone batho e tlaa nnang badumedi.
Nnyaa, e tlaabo e le Goromente yo o senang boikarabelo.

Fa batho go ne go buega dikereke tse batho ba itshemang baporofiti, ba tseela batho matlo, malwapa a thubegile, bana ba humanegile ba setse mo sebaka- tsatsing, e bo e le gore re le Mapalamente re ka ema mo Palamenteng e re re fa motsadi fela a ema a re nna ntlo e ya me ke ya go e fa moruti, bana ba bo ba sala mo lebaleng go sena gope fa ba nnang teng.
Re re nnyaa, go siame fela Goromente a se ka a tsenya lebogo go fema matlhotlhapelo a re ntseng re a bona, a batho ba tsayang dithoto ba tlogela bana mo sebaka-tsatsing, ba isitse dithoto kwa go moruti.

Go bo gotwe fa re emisa dilo tse re le Puso, re Puso e e sa kgathaleleng Modimo, batho ba ka dira go na le gorata ka dithoto tsa bone.
E bo e re morago ga foo batho ba setse ba humanegile, ba bo ba boela kwa go yone Puso gore jaanong ba tsenngwe mo Ipelegeng ba ye go phakisiwa, bana ba bone ba tsenngwe dikole ba ye go phakisiwa, re tlaabo re le Puso e e senang boikarabelo Mr Chairperson.

Ke gakgamalela mafoko a ga Mopalamente Mmolotsi gore fa e le gore ke gone ka fa a akanyang ka teng le bakaulengwe ba gagwe, nnyaa tota fela lefatshe le Batswana go raya gore ka 2019 ba ne ba tlhopha sentle ka gore go ne go ka nna le bothata.
Se ke se buang Mr Chairperson, ke gone gore re a itse batho ba e reng motshegare ba bo ba rwala dikopelo tsa dikereke mme tse ba di dirang mo mafifing, e le tse Modimo a ka se keng a di lebele.

Jaanong dilo tse ke tse e leng gore di a re gakgamatsa gore fa gongwe re nna le batho ba mohuta one o.

As we speak, fa go na le ngongorego setšhaba se tlaa bua, bakereki ba tlaa bua gore nnyaa, re buleleng fela jaaka ba ne ba bua gore e kete jaanong seemo se dule mo taolong, Goromente o kae, o baakanye seemo se.
Ke ne ke batla go wela ka yone eo gore batho a ba itse ba le kwa magaeng gore ga gotwe ga ba ka ke ba ikwadisa ba le kwa settlement jaaka go ntse go buiwa, ba a ikwadisa fela ba le kereke.

Mongwe kgantele o kile a re fa batho ba le mo settlement ba le 100, 50 e le maRoma, 50 e le MaLontone, ba ikwadisa jang?

Nnyaa, kereke ya Roma e setse e kwadisitswe gale.

Fa le batla go bula branch kwa Xere, le fa le le 50 le a bo bula, ga gotwe le ikwadise.

E setse e kwadisitswe gale.


Kereke ya Lontone e setse e kwadisitswe.

Fa le batla go bula branch le le kwa motseng ope fela, le fa le ka nna 30, le a letlelesega.

Ba Spiritual fa ba batla go bula branch kwa motseng ope fela, le fa ba le 30, ba a letlelesega.

Jaanong dilo tse a di se ka tsa buiwa e kete ga gona kelelelo mo molaong ka fa o neng o dirilwe ka teng.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister!
MR MOLAO: Jaanong ke ne ke wetsa mafoko a me ka tsela e e ntseng jalo Mr Chairperson, gore ga ke dumalane le Tshutiso ya ga Rre Ramogapi.

A re tsweleleng fela ka 150 jaaka a beilwe.

Ke a leboga.

18 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, I have listened intensively to the debate, I think everything that can be said for and against the proposal by Honourable Ramogapi has been said, we will not be any wiser by adding more voices.

So I truncate the debate and put the question.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga o tsenye ba le babedi Mr Chairperson?

MR CHAIRPERSON: I have truncated the debate.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Thank you.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke mang yo o reng thank you go buiwa ka kereke?
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ba ba ratang dibara ba sena sepe le Modimo.

MR CHAIRPERSON: The question Honourable Members is that the amendment of “society” as proposed by Honourable Ramogapi be agreed to.

Question put and Division called for.

MR CHAIRPERSON: You have the right to call for a division but I am also quite sensible to know what the results are.

Having listened to the debate, I do not think that people are going to change their minds.
Honourable Members, listen carefully, your names will be called so that you vote and see whether I misapprehended the votes.
Those who agree with the proposal by Honourable Ramogapi on the new definition of society will say “aye,” those who do not agree with the definition as proposed by Honourable Ramogapi will say “no.” CLERK: MEMBER’S NAME His Excellency Dr Masisi Honourable Autlwetse Honourable Balopi Honourable Boko Honourable Brooks Honourable Billy Honourable Dr Dikoloti Honourable Dr Dow Honourable Gare Honourable Dr Gobotswang Honourable Greeff Honourable Hikuama Honourable Kablay Honourable Kapinga Honourable Kekgonegile Honourable Keorapetse Honourable Kereng Honourable Kgafela Honourable Khama Honourable Dr Kwape Honourable Lesedi Honourable Lelatisitswe AYE NO ABSTAIN ABSENT √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ 19 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage Honourable Lesaso Honourable Dr Letsholathebe Honourable Letsholo Honourable Leuwe Honourable Lucas Honourable Majaga Honourable Makwinja Honourable Manake Honourable Mangwegape-Healy Honourable Mathoothe Honourable Dr Matsheka Honourable Mmolotsi Honourable Mmusi Honourable Moabi Honourable Moagi Honourable Moatlhodi Honourable Modukanele Honourable Mokgethi Honourable Molale Honourable Molao Honourable Molebatsi Honourable Monnakgotla Honourable Morwaeng Honourable Moswaane Honourable Motaosane Honourable Motsamai Honourable Mthimkhulu Honourable Mzwinila Honourable Nkawana Honourable Pule Honourable Rakgare Honourable Ramogapi Honourable Reatile Honourable Regoeng Honourable Saleshando Honourable Segokgo Honourable Serame Honourable Shamukuni Honourable Thiite Honourable Dr Tshabang Honourable Tshere His Honour Tsogwane 20 √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ √ Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Chairperson, ke kopa to vote foo, my audio was disconnected, ‘no’, Kereng.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ne ke re gongwe re emela gore ba fetse Mr Chairperson, ke gone re bo re bua, Kekgonegile ke ‘yes.’ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Manake ke ‘no.’ HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Kekgonegile, you have been absent.

MR KEKGONEGILE: It is ‘yes’, sir, maranyane a ne a pala gakere go ntse go timile.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa, go ne go timile kgantele.


MR KEKGONEGILE: Ee rra, ka palelwa ke to connect go fitlhelela gompieno.

MR CHAIRPERSON: So yours is a yes?

MR KEKGONEGILE: Ee rra, it is a yes.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le Manake, it is a yes.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: A ke kopile thuso ya ga ope?

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)...

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Kekgonegile, we have dealt with him.

Honourable Kereng?
Honourable Kereng?

MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, NATURAL RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND TOURISM (MS KERENG): It is a no, Mr Chairperson, audio e ne e pala.

Thank you.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: And me Mr Chairperson, Makwinja, no.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Re ntse re sena power Mr Speaker.

MR CHAIRPERSON: I have not asked you for an explanation.

Honourable Manake?

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MS MANAKE): No.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Chairperson, Honourable Lesaso ga a kgona go tlhopha, o na le problem ya connectivity, mme Honourable Boko o ne a araba fa go ene.

I think that is wrong, actually that is criminal, he must be sent out.

MR CHAIRPERSON: O ne a arabela mang?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Boko o ne a arabela Honourable Lesaso, o ne a re, “yes”, ka bokukuntshwane.

He must be thrown out of Parliament.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Lesaso, I repeated myself and I heard him clearly saying no.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ka re o kgatlhiwa fela ke go bua Sekgoa sa criminal.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Okay, thank you sir.

21 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: …(Inaudible)…ga bo bereke.

…(Inaudible)… ke mmona ke the Leader of the House… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le Minister Segokgo.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: E wetse Mmusi, a ko le iketlele go zama, go zama ke ga eng?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Re batla go ja Ramogapi tota.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: You must be very careful Mr Chairperson.

Honourable Yandani Boko is very dangerous, you must be very careful ka ene fa go tlhophiwa jaana.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Dilo tsa Mahalapye East, motlhaba le noka di tlaa mmona.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O rata go pimpa Rakgare, ke gore o motho yo o ntseng jang?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Vice President (VP).

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O a utlwa Your Honour, Segokgo ke yo o leditse a re ga a kgone go tsena.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: A ko le iketlele go zama, ke la ntlha go zamiwa jaana batho ba Modimo.

Modimo ga a rate dilo tse le di dirang tse.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: E ka re e le motho wa maranyane go bo gotwe ga a kgone go tsena?

MR TSOGWANE: Ke fetotse laptops, go na le e nngwe Ramogapi o e jemisitse.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O sale o rile, “no”, re go utlwile.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!
Order!

Honourable Members, the result of your voting; the “Ayes - 15”, the “Noes - 30”, “Absent - 18.” Therefore, the Noes have it.

Amendment negated.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Now we proceed to the next amendment which is Clause 6.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clause Chairperson.

3, Mr MR CHAIRPERSON: I have already said, the Honourable Minister, Clause 2 stand part of the Bill.

Honourable Ramogapi has said it is a misprint to say there is an amendment at Clause 3.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, there is.


MR CHAIRPERSON: No, I am telling you what was said, that his amendment was not Clause 3 but Clause 2.

I am looking for who had an amendment at Clause 2.

MS MOKGETHI: No, I was referring to Honourable Lucas’s amendment.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Therefore, we are done with Clause 2.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Mmusi o nnetse go leletsa batho botlhe fela, ga ke itse gore o dira mo gotweng ke eng.

Mong wa Bill kana mong wa leso o itlhobogile o bona gore Modimo ga o rate.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: We are done sir.

MR CHAIRPERSON: There is an amendment at Clause 3.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Minister Segokgo ke yo o mo mogaleng Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Mo lese a nne mo mogaleng.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: A re maranyane ga a tsene.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Gakere ke ene Minister wa maranyane, mma a ikutlwele.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Mo lese a nne foo.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR TSOGWANE: Mr Chairperson, am I audible?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O siame VP, tlhopho ya gago re sale re e utlwile.
Clause 3 MR LUCAS: Thank you very much Mr Speaker.

Ke bua ka paakanyo ya Clause 3… MR SALESHANDO: On a point of procedure Mr Speaker.

You will advise me if I am not correct.

I thought gore jaanong fa re tswa mo Clause 2 do you not move gore it stand part of the Bill jaaka fa e sena to be amended by the Minister?

MR CHAIRPERSON: I did, I said that Clause 2 as amended by the Minister stand part of the Bill and you agreed to that.
Then we moved to the proposed amendment by Honourable Ramogapi which has not succeeded.

MR SALESHANDO: Okay, sir.

22 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage CHAIRPERSON: MR Mokgomong wa Bobonong.

Honourable Lucas.

Honourable Lucas.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ba ba mo tshamekisang ba tlaa ipona.

…Silence… MR CHAIRPERSON: O nyeletse.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Lucas was here just a moment ago.
There might be something which has gone wrong.

Ke mang yo o gaufi le ene?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is why Honourable Lucas a sa kgone go tsena mo moweng, ba tshameka ka leina la Modimo.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ga re di tsene.

Gongwe fa e ne e le tsa ga Ngwale, ke ne ke tlaa bitsa Bakgomong re bo re itse gore re ka tsaya tsela efe.

Tseo tsa ga Mateu ke tsa lona.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke Advocate Ramogapi.

A re ke go supa gore Modimo ga a rate.


MR TSOGWANE: Ke eng o sa tswelele ka amendments tse dingwe Mr Chairperson, re tlaa boela kwa go ene.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker, go lebega golo fa re tlaa nna le mathata letsatsi leno Mr Speaker.

Le rona e ntse internet e tsamaya, motlakase o tsamaya.

Go lebega go tlaa nna le bothata fa re se ka ke ra tsholetsa dinao.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is because the type of Motions that we are being presented with tse di tshamekisang Modimo.
Ke sone o bona go nna jaaka go ntse jaana.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Naare wena Deputy Speaker o santse o le koo?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Laughter!

)… MR MOATLHODI: Morena wa me ke ne ke rile… (inaudible)… Ke a apara ke e tla Morena wa me.

Ke etla sir...(Laughter!

)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!

)… MR MOATLHODI: Ke etla sir.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: He reported himself Deputy Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O robala mo tirong.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Lucas!
HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker, Ramogapi a re Modimo ga a rate go tshamekisiwa that is why dilo di sa bereke.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!

)… MR CHAIRPERSON: We are to confuse the whole record, that is the problem really ...(Interruptions)…go ne go sena motho yo a romilweng kwa go ene.

just going MR TSOGWANE: Ga se yo o tlaa tlang letsatsi leno, go raya gore re emele kamoso fela.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ramogapi ke ene next door ya ga Lucas sir, ke ene a ka thusang.
MR CHAIRPERSON: We would not wait the whole day Vice President (VP).

I thought somebody has gone next door to see what the problem is.

If they cannot, we should proceed because we are falling way behind.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Mma?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ne ke re fa ke seyo le Mavange ke mathata sir, ba bangwe ba ke malofa.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Let me call upon the Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs, Mme Mma Mokgethi to present in relation to Clause 6.
Clause 6 MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): Can I proceed Mr Chairperson?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes madam.

MS MOKGETHI: Mr Chairperson, the Bill is amended at Clause 6 appearing at page B.474, by substituting for that Clause, the following Clause - 23 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage Refusal of registration The Registrar may refuse to register a society where he or she is satisfied that - (a) it appears to the Registrar that the objects of the society are unlawful and prejudicial to the peace, welfare or good order; (b) the society, within 90 days immediately after being required under Section 5 (3) to provide information, fails to provide the information so required; (c) the office-bearers of the society are unable to keep proper records of meetings of the society and of its members and the control and management of the financial affairs of the society and of its property, and to perform the duties imposed on them by this Act; (d) the Registrar is satisfied that the application of registration of a society does not comply with this Act; (e) has not adopted its own Constitution; (f) the Constitution of the society is repugnant to or inconsistent with any written law; and (g) the Registrar is satisfied that the society does not exist; (h) the name under which the society is to be registered- (i) is identical to that of any other existing society, (ii) so nearly resembles the name of such other society as, in the opinion of the Registrar, to be likely to deceive the public or the members of either society, and (l) the society provides funding or support for terrorist activities or finances proliferation or illicit dealing in arms or ammunition; (m) an office-bearer or member of the society has been found guilty of a crime, in the area the society wishes to operate in, either in or outside Botswana; and (n) an officer-bearer holds another office in a society operating in the same space.” Mr Speaker, also with respect to some clauses that I have been reading, I wish to move the following amendments also, by insertion of the figure 6 at the chapel, and for the deletion under 6 (1) (b) the word “it appears to the Registrar that” and (c) under 6 (1) (b) by substituting for the words “5 (3)” appearing therein the word “5 (2).” Under 6 (1) d) for the deletion of the words “the Registrar is satisfied that” and then (e) by inserting Sub-Section (ii) and (iii) appearing therein.
I submit Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Motho o ka ipotsa gore parties tse dingwe tse di kwadisitswe jang, tse di neng di tswa mo dintweng, because it is against the good order of the society.

…Silence… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Minister, go raya gore you must strike off these parties that were formed as a result of violence, it is against the good order of society.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Hei, o a buabua Healy.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Gakere ke bua ka Bill, gatwe against the good order of society.
Gakere violence is a good example of it.

…Silence… (iii) is, in the opinion of the Registrar, repugnant to or inconsistent with any written law, “EXCHANGE OF SPEAKERSHIP” (iv) there is reasonable suspicion that the society has committed a financial offence; MR CHAIRPERSON (MR MOATLHODI): Good afternoon Honourable Members.

Honourable Minister!


(j) the society or its office bearer is subject to sanctions, embargos or similar measures issued by the United Nations Security Council; MS MOKGETHI: Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: What is the hold-up Madam?

(k) the society or its office bearer is affiliated with a society that is subject to sanctions, embargos or similar measures issued by the United Nations Security Council; MS MOKGETHI: I have completed my presentation on the amendment Mr Speaker, on Clause 6.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Did you read them together with the corrected ones?

24 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MS MOKGETHI: I did Mr Chairperson.

(i) is identical to that of any other existing society, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Chairperson, ke teng fano.

MR CHAIRPERSON: We shall come back to you Honourable Lucas, we will come back to you Mokgomong, mma re fetse le Motlotlegi Tona.
Our Learned Parliamentary Counsel, please take the Minister through what we expect of her.

LEARNED PARLIAMENTARY ACTING COUNSEL (MS KOKORO): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Honourable Minister, please read the Clause with the corrections that you just stated, so that it is complete.

Read it with the corrections inside, so that one is able from what you are reading to see what the correct version of the draft is supposed to be.

MS MOKGETHI: Noted Parliamentary Counsel.


The Bill is amended at Clause 6 appearing at page B.474, by substituting for that Clause, the following - For the insertion of figure 6 at the chapel - The Registrar may refuse to register a society where he or she is satisfied that - (a) the objects of the society are unlawful and prejudicial to the peace, welfare or good order.
(b) the society, within 90 days immediately after being required under Section 5 (2) to provide information, fails to provide the information so required; (c) the office-bearers of the society are unable to keep proper records of meetings of the society and of its own members and the control and management of the financial affairs of the society and of its property, and to perform the duties imposed on them by the Act; (ii) so nearly resembles the name of such other society as, in the opinion of the Registrar, to be likely to deceive the public or the members of either society, and (iii) is, in the opinion of the Registrar, repugnant to or inconsistent with any written law, (i) there is reasonable suspicion that the society has committed a financial offence; (j) the society or its office bearer is subject to sanctions, embargos or similar measures issued by the United Nations Security Council; (k) the society or its office bearer is affiliated with a society that is subject to sanctions, embargos or similar measures issued by the United Nations Security Council; (l) the society provides funding or support for terrorist activities or finances proliferation or illicit dealing in arms or ammunition; (m) an office-bearer or member of the society has been found guilty of a crime, in the area the society wishes to operate in, either in or outside Botswana; and (n) an officer-bearer holds another office in a society operating in the same space.” (2) Where the Registrar rejects an application for registration, the society may within 20 days after the date of such rejection, appeal to the Minister.
(3) Any person or society aggrieved by the decision of the Minister, may appeal to the High Court within 30 days of receiving notice of such decision.

(d) the application of registration of a society does not comply with this Act; I submit Mr Speaker.
(e) has not adopted its own constitution; (f) the constitution of the society is repugnant to or inconsistent with any written law; and (g) the Registrar is satisfied that the society does not exist; (h) the name under which the society is to be registered- MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable Minister.

Honourable Members, the matter is open for you to look into the submission that the Honourable Minister has made.
I do not know Honourable Assistant Minister of Health and Wellness, whether this hand is new or old, the one that I see tendered on the board by your good self?

…Silence... 25 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: Right, thank you Honourable Members.

Fa go sena yo o kgwang Tona dikgaba, I am now going to put the question Honourable Members.

Amendment agreed to.


MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, there is another proposed amendment at Clause 3 by Honourable Lucas.

Clause 3 MR LUCAS (BOBONONG): Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.

I am proposing paakanyo mo Clause 3.


For purposes of record, I will read that the Bill is amended in Clause 3, appearing on page B.473, by substituting for that Clause, the following new Clause - Appointment of Registrar 3 (1) The Minister shall, by Notice published in the Gazette, appoint a public officer at Deputy Permanent Secretary level, who has a legal background and experience in administration, to be the Registrar of Societies.
Ke tlisa paakanyo e jaana Mr Chairperson, ka gore mo molaong o o akanyediwang, go supa fela gore Minister can appoint a public officer go sena melelwane e e bewang ya gore mme public officer yoo, e ka nna motho wa dithutego kgotsa wa kitso e e kana ka eng.

Gone fa ke sone se ke tsenyang kgang ya public officer yo o buiwang gore e nne Registrar of Societies, e tshwanetse ya nna motho yo o nang le a legal background.
Ke motho yo o nang le dithutego tse di tsamaelanang le tsa molao mme gape a na le experience mo administration.

Ke bua jaana gore motho yoo a bo a na le dithutego tse di tsamaelanang le melao ka gore fa o tsaya tiro ya gagwe o e bala mo go one Molao-kakanyetso, o a lemoga gore ke motho yo o tlaabong a dira thatathata le dikgang tse di amanang le molao.

O tlaabo a dira le constitutions le societies tse di farologanyeng.
Ka jalo go batla gore gongwe re tlhamalatse kgang e gore ene motho yoo e nne yo o nang le dikitso tse di tsamaelang kwa molaong gape a na le experience mo administration, gape maemo a gagwe mo Pusong e le a a fa godingwananyana gore a tle a kgone go diragatsa tse re di bonang e le ditiro tsa gagwe under the Societies Bill e e fa pele ga rona.

Ke tsaya gore re tsaya ka tlhoafalo batho betsho gore ene Registrar yo o tlaabo a tlhodumela tota melawana e e farologanyeng, e e leng gore e ama societies.
A tlhodumela societies tseo le melao ya tsone ka gore re bua ka dikgang tse di thata, re bua ka gore societies tse di ka dirisiwa mo money laundering, terrorism financing le mo proliferation financing.

Go raya gore mme jaanong go batla gore motho yo e leng gore e bo e le Registrar of Societies, o tshwanetse ya bo e le wa dikitso tseo mme e bile e le wa maemo a ke a supileng a Deputy Permanent Secretary level.
Ga se gone fela batho betsho, sengwe gape ke gore fa ke ne ke reeditse Mme Mma Serame sentle a bua ka FATF, a re e tlaabo e ntse e re lebeletse gape gore re diragatsa tse re di dumalaneng.
Fa go na le motho yo o tlaabong a na le dikitso tse di lekaneng, experience e e lekaneng mme e bile e le motho yo e leng gore o fa godingwananyana ka maemo, ke dumela gore o ka kgona to drive this process gore e tle e re fa re setse re sekasekiwa ka 2024, go tlholwa gore re ne re diragatsa go le kae one molao o, go bo go fitlhelwa mokaulengwe e le gore re ne re e diragatsa ka botswerere, ka re ne re na le batho ba ba nang le dikitso tse di lebaneng.

Ke sone se ke tlisang Tshutiso e gore a re baakanyeng.
Go bua fela o re Minister o tlaa tlhopha a public officer ga go a lekana, a re lekeng go agelela motho yoo ka gore o tlisa qualifications tse ke di supileng.

Ke a leboga.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable Lucas.

Ke rata go le kopa batlotlegi; the time to discuss the merits and the demerits of the Bills is over.

Gompieno we are on Clauses, you just briefly tell us why you want the Bill amended ka gore tse dintsi re di buile maloba, le nako ga re sa tlhola re na nayo.
Just a brief explanation shall be enough.

Honourable Minister, I had thought ke tlaa go neela kwa morago but I think it is important for you to explain, more so that you have your hand up.

MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): Thank you so much Mr Chairperson.

Let me explain that the societies is a division within the Department of Civil and National Registration headed at E1 level by the Director who is also the Registrar of Societies.
As per the current Government structure, the Registrar reports directly to the Deputy Permanent Secretary.

In addition to that Mr Chairperson, this ministry has internal Legal Counsels who are there and are available to advise the Registrar as and when the need arises.

I thank you Chairperson.

MR SALESHANDO: On a point of procedure.


Le fa nako e re siile Mr Chairperson, ke tsaya gore o ne o letlelela Minister pele go supa gore a o kgatlhanong kana 26 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage o dumalana le se se sutisitsweng.

Jaanong go lebega ene a bala pampiri nngwe e e fa thoko ga gagwe.

Re ne re batla gore fa a wela, a re bolelele gore morago fa a sena go se bua fa, maikutlo a gagwe ke eng ka se re kopang go se tokafatsa mo molaong?
A se ka a itlhaganelela gore a bo a re ke feditse, le rona re mmotse, re tlhaloganye gore conclusion ya gagwe, a mme o bona e le yone ka mabaka re ka tswang re a tshotse.

Golo moo go ka thusa gore rona ba bangwe re se ka ra akgela fa a ka e tlhalosa, a bo a letlelela gore re mmotse gore a re tlhalosetse sentle.

Ke a leboga.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO), you could not have been more correct ngwaga wa ga nkgonne.
I had also expected the Honourable Minister go wela a re I agree with the Clause or not, and she must state her ministry’s position.

Please Honourable Minister, be so guided.

MS MOKGETHI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I am so guided by you and Leader of the Opposition.

The position of my ministry is that we oppose this amendment.

Thank you Mr Chairperson.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke kopa tlhaloso o ise o tswe mo floor.

MR SALESHANDO: Clarification.


Ke ne ke kopa Minister gore a re tlhalosetse, kana gatwe golo mo re setswe morago ke makgotla a a lebeletseng tsamaiso ya dilo tse.

Molao wa konokono o o tshwanang le wa Financial Intelligence Agency (FIA), re bua gore fa go tla maemo a o a tshwere, o bo o na le dithutego dife.

A mme o raya gore ke go tswala tlhaloganya fela re bo re re nnyaa, mo bogompieno structure ke se?
A ga o bone go tlhokafala gore ka gore motho yo Registrar of Societies maikarabelo a gagwe a tlaabo a le matona, a amana le dikgang tse e leng gore ke makgotla a a sa tshwanelang go letlelelwa go tsweledisa sepe sa terrorism and money laundering.

A re ka se ka ra bua gore re batla motho wa dithutego dife, go senya eng?
A ga go re beye mo tshiamelong gore rona re bo re lebega re nnile proactive, go na le gore re emele gore next year re bo re tla gape re re go urgent, go urgent gatwe Registrar of Societies le ene o tshwanetse gore a bo a le mo maemong a a rileng.

Ke eng re ka se ka ra dira jalo re sa kgaramediwe ke ope?

Ke a leboga.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable LOO.

Gakere jaanong ke tle ke go phimole ngwana wa ga nkgonne ka gore ke go file slot?

MR SALESHANDO: Fa e le gore tlhaloso e tlaa kgotsofatsa.
Fa e le gore ke ya go balelwa note e e fetisitsweng ke badirelapuso go bo gotwe ke eme gone foo, ke tlaa kopa go akgela.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable LOO.

Honourable Mmolotsi, ke kopa gore le nne bakhutshwanyane bakaulengwe.

Honourable Member for Francistown South.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Chairperson Procedure Mr MR CHAIRPERSON: Hang on a second.

Honourable Minister, in all fairness, you need to comment mo kakgelong ya ga Motlotlegi Moeteledipele wa Kganetso.
You need to clear the coast, that is what our procedures are saying.

Please, Honourable Minister.

MS MOKGETHI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

In addition to what I have already said, we were already blacklisted as a country and as a supervisor of Non- Profit Organisations (NPO), the Registrar has manned this Registrar of Societies very well and has done so very, very competently.

With the results, we were able to get out of the greylisting.
She has proved herself to be very competent and very able in her duties as the Registrar of Societies.

She has shown that you do not necessarily need a person with a legal background.

As I have explained, this ministry has three Legal Counsels and are at the disposal of the Registrar of Societies and can render legal advice at any time as and when the need arises.

As I said, the Registrar of Societies is perfectly capable.
She has resulted in this ministry, particularly the Registrar of Societies who is the supervisor of NPOs, out of the greylisting.

I think I have sufficiently justified…(Interruptions)… and I still oppose the proposal.

MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR MOLAO): Elucidation.

Mr Chairperson, I just wanted to say, gongwe Minister le ene will elucidate on the basis of what she has already said, gore the ministry has got a structure se e leng gore it operates ka sone gompieno.
When it comes to this position, we may not talk specifically about the person currently holding the position.

The way the law has been couched, it does not exclude somebody with a legal background to be appointed as the Registrar.

Anybody who is found to be competent, whether they have a legal background or not, can be appointed to this position and they will also be assisted by other officials as their Legal Counsels jaaka a ntse a bua.
I do not think to close it off and say a e nne motho wa molao fela, I think we will be limiting the scope.

I think leaving it open to anybody found to be competent, whether o na le molao kgotsa ga a na one, I think it will suffice Mr Chairperson.

27 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

You have made your point Honourable Minister of Basic Education.
Bagaetsho, we have two Bibles in front of us to read through, two big volumes of work to do.

I am not going to give anybody more than two minutes.

MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): Ke simolole ka go supa gore system nngwe le nngwe e re eletsang gore re bereke sentle, ke e e tsayang batho ba e leng gore they are the best and the brightest in that particular system.

We want to deploy Batswana ba ba nang le qualifications tse re dumalanang gore di siametse tsamaiso ya lephata le.
Ke sone se ke batlang go dumalana le Honourable Lucas gore motho yo o nang le botsipa le boitseanape jwa molao, ke yo o ka tlhaloganyang dikgang tsa societies go gaisa nna wa teacher.

O ka di tlhaloganya go gaisa Rre Tshere wa medical engineer.

O ka di tlhaloganya go gaisa rraboipelego yo o tshwanang le Rre Pule.
Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, re eletsa dilo tsa rona di tsamaela kwa go reng re nne le batho ba ba yang go tshwara ditiro tsa rona ka botswerere, mme ba di dira ka kitso e e rileng, e bile re bone the best results.

Gompieno jaana Tona o bua gore motho o kgonne go re ntsha kwa greylisting, gongwe fa re ne re tsentse motho yo o nang le boagente, a na le experience ya administration, re ka bo re sa tsena le gone mo greylisting.

Ke dumela gore re se ka ra e leba ka tsela e e ntseng jalo.
Re lebe gore motho o ithutetse eng, e bile re se ka ra e leba jaaka Honourable Molao a bua a re ga e panel batho ba molao.

We want to be specific gore these should the requirements tsa motho yo o tshwanetseng go nna Registrar.

Ke dumela gore go ka siama.

You see, go a tshwenya ka gore mo nakong ya gompieno Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) deployment e ba ile kwa tlhogong mo e leng gore re bona batho ba tsenngwa mo posts tse e leng gore they are completely not qualified to.
O tlaa bona Makhanselara ba ba latlhegetsweng ke ditlhopho ba tsenngwa e nna Court President, Deputy Court President… MR CHAIRPERSON: Please confine yourself to the Bill.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke itsile gore o tlile go hasoga.

MR MMOLOTSI: Mr Chairperson, ke fa dikai, ga o ka ke wa debate le nna, I am allowed to give examples.

Gompieno jaana re bone dikgang tsa maland board maloba le tsa Makhanselara.
Gompieno re bona dikgang tsa Court President ba e leng gore they are deployed because they are cadres of the BDP.

Re eletsa gore re beye seelo se go ka itsiweng gore go ya go senkiwa motho yo o ntseng jang.

Re se ka ra fitlhela letsatsi le lengwe Mokhanselara yo o jelweng ke ditlhopho e le Registrar of Societies mme go sena sepe se a se itseng ka thulaganyo eo.
Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo Mr Chairperson, a re tlhamalaleng jaaka Honourable Lucas a kopa, motho yo o tshwanelwa ke gore a bo a ithutetse molao, e bile a na le boitemogelo mo go tsa tsamaiso.

Re a itse gore by so doing, re ya go iphitlhela re tsere motho yo o ka kgonang tiro le tsotlhe tsa yone.

Re se ka ra bo ra leka Mr Chairperson… MR CHAIRPERSON: You have made your point Honourable Mmolotsi.

MR MMOLOTSI: …re dire bulela di tswe jaaka re batla go dira.
Re setse re baba matsogo Mr Chairperson, ka gore tota BDP e dule mo tseleng mo go feteletseng.

Ke a leboga.

MR KEKGONEGILE (MAUN EAST): Tanki Mr Chairperson.

Mma re dumedise batlotlegi, re dumedise setšhaba ka kakaretso.

Mr Chairperson, ke dumela gore Tshutiso e ya paakanyo e e tlang ka Honourable Lucas e maleba re lebile gore gompieno jaana gone mo go Goromente yo wa Domkrag, go tsweletswe go dirwa mo gotweng rationalisation of posts within Government service.
Rationalisation of posts go tewa tshekatsheko ya go bona gore re tlhoka post efe fa kae, e le mo level e e ntseng jang.

Gone moo fela ka bogone, ke gone mo Honourable Lucas a go buang gore post e ya Registrar of Societies, fa o lebile tiro ya yone, o lebile boikarabelo jwa yone, go tlhokafala gore e bo e le fa godimonyana.

It should be upgraded from the Director level to DPS level.

Ke sone se a se buang, se se tsamaelanang le se Goromente a tshwaraganeng le namane e tona ya go se dira.
Go solofetswe gore go ya go nna le shake up within Government Enclave.

Ke ipotsa gore fa Honourable Lucas a na le ponelopele e lona le e akantseng mme le ise le e diragatse, e ganelwa eng se se tona se se kalo?

E bile gape kana paakanyo e e ikaelela to match kutlwisiso, boitseanape le portfolio.

Gone mo fela ka bogone, go raya gore go tsewa ba ba kgakala le dikitso, experience le qualification, o tla o ba tsenya gone fa.

O fitlhela kgantele e le gore motho jaanong o bereka go botsa.
O bereka go tsaya ditaelo, go fiwa direction rather than ene a bo a ikakanyetsa ka boene.

Gone moo fela ka bogone, go raya gore tiro e ya to suffer.

Ke sone se gompieno re fitlhelang mo go Goromente go na le bad performance ka ntata ya 28 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage gore, there is a lot of mismatch of skills to posts.

O ya go fitlhela motho a tserwe e le administrator, gatwe a ye to head Engineering Department.
O ya go fitlhela motho a tserwe e le tenderpreneur gatwe a ye to head Agriculture.

Gone moo, a go tlaa nna le performance?

Motho wa teng o bereka go tlhola a botsa fela a tsaya dituelo.

Ke sone se go felelang bolope bo le kwa godimo thata jaana mo Pusong yoo-raGoromente ka gore go na le mismatch o montsi.

Ke dumalana le Tshutiso ya ga Honourable Lucas.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable Kekgonegile, Honourable Member for Maun East, Matlapaneng le kwa Senonnori.
You are going to be followed by the Honourable Minister responsible for Infrastructure and Housing Development.

Honourable Minister, you will be the last but one on this issue.

INFRASTRUCTURE AND MINISTER OF HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Member of Parliament (MP) for Goodhope-Mabule.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes sir.

MR MOLALE: Nnyaa bagaetsho, ga re ka ke ra rwesa Palamente morwalo o e seng wa yone.

To grade posts is unprocedural.


If there has been any precedent, we would have to go back and correct that because it is unprocedural.

Palamente ga e itse to grade posts.

Point number two, fa e le gore la re motho yo o yang go nna Registrar, e bo e le motho yo o itseng molao, go raya gore every post in Government e tlaabo e le lawyers.

Director wa Omang ka gore they implement molao wa Omang, a bo a nna a lawyer.
Ramapodise ka gore o implement the Botswana Police Service Act, e bo e le lawyer, that cannot be.

Le batla go re ntsha mo tsamaisong ya go tsamaisa Puso.

That is very wrong.

In a system of governance, subordinates take direction from superiors and subordinates are allowed gore if the instruction is unlawful to stand their position.

Ga go na ka sepe se se ka buiwang fa gore batho ba tsaya ditaelo ka gore ke malope.
No, we are a system with entrenched values of good governance and the rule of law observance.

I thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable Minister.

Finally, Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Mahalapye Botlhaba, Honourable Boko.

MR BOKO (MAHALAPYE EAST): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, ke batla go pagama mo mafokong a a setseng a builwe ke Mapalamente a mangwe a kganetso, ba leka go ema nokeng se Honourable Lucas a se beileng pele.
Ba tlhalositse mabaka a ke dumalanang le one gore ga go a lekana gore e re post e e ntseng jaana, jaaka Tona a ne a bua a re nnyaa, kana go na le diagente kwa ministry, go tlaa nna go ya go kopiwa thuso kwa go bone.

Fa gongwe ga re o tseye motho o mmeye gone foo a na le dikitso, diagente di le teng kana di seyo.

A kgona go ka tsaya ditshwetso, a tlhalosa dilo dingwe, go na le go ka baya mo bathong bangwe ba le bone ba nang le potential ya go ka mo tsietsa kana go ka mo tsenya mo sekgweng.
Go ka mo tsietsa ka mabaka a gore fa gongwe ga ba utlwane sentle ka nako yone eo kana ba mo tsietsa ka mabaka ape fela a a ka tswang a bo a le teng ka nako ya teng.

So, it cannot be enough for a Minister to say, nnyaa, go na le diagente tse di teng gone foo, di tlaa nna di ntse di thusa ka fa di thusang ka teng.

Golo mo go thusa gape le go fokotsa mosuke wa ba gongwe ba tlaabong ba ka batla to apply for that post ka nako e e ka tlang ka yone.
Let us say, motho yo o tlaabong a e tshwere ka nako eo, Modimo o mmiditse kana a tlogela tiro ka bogodi, kana ka mabaka afe fela.
Ke se o bonang gompieno mo Pusong Mr Chairperson, jaaka Honourable Mmolotsi a ne a tlhalosa, post e tlaabo e tswa, e bo e le gore kgantele go felela go sukunyeditswe batho ba fa gongwe le go bua ba sa itseng go bua mo teng gone foo, le go bala ba sa go itse, le go kwala maina a bone ba sa itse ka gore e open, mongwe le mongwe o ka tsena fela mo teng, mo post e e tlaabong e le teng.

Go leka gone go bolaya kgang ya cadre deployment, of course e tlaa… MR CHAIRPERSON: Your time is up Honourable Boko.
Your two minutes is up.

Thank you for your contribution Honourable Member for Mahalapye East.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga se gore mme Mr Speaker, ka tiro ya Palamente… MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order Honourable Molao!

Nobody has invited you to talk.

We are on a very serious matter.

Please be quiet.

Honourable Members, le reetse thata.

Order!

Le reetse thata Batlotlegi Mapalamente.


When I say the question is that the amendment be agreed to, ke laletsa botlhe ba ba dumalanang le Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Bobonong gore ke bone ba tsholetse mantswe ba re “aye.” Fa ke setse ke re those on the contrary say “no,” ba ba sa dumalaneng le Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Bobonong ba bo ba re, “no.” The voices must be up and out.

Nako e re siile.

29 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage HONOURABLE MEMBER: Re kgokgontshiwa ke motho, batho ba Modimo.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Honourable Minister... MR CHAIRPERSON: Lucas, let us have order please.

Ke a ba bolelela kwa gae gore wa ntshwenya wena.

Amendment negated.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Clauses 4 - 5 agreed to.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, there is a proposed amendment at Clause 6.

Honourable Minister, please motivate your amendment.

MS MOKGETHI: We have already dealt with it Mr Chairperson.
May we move to Clause 7.

Clause 7 MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, is an amendment at Clause 7.

Honourable Minister, please motivate your amendment.

there MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

The Bill is amended at Clause 7 appearing at page B.475 by substituting for that Clause, the following Clause – Disqualification for office-bearers 7.
A person shall not qualify for appointment as an office bearer if he or she - (a) has, in terms of a law in force in any country - (i) been adjudged or otherwise declared bankrupt and has not been discharged, or (ii) made an assignment to, arrangement or composition with his or her creditors, which has not been rescinded or set aside; or (b) has, within the period of 10 years immediately preceding the date of his or her appointment, been convicted - (i) of a criminal offence within Botswana, or (ii) outside Botswana, of an offence which if committed in Botswana, would have been a criminal offence, and sentenced by a court of competent jurisdiction to imprisonment for six months or more without the option of a fine, whether that sentence is suspended or not, and for which he or she has not received a free pardon.
I so submit Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of procedure.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Maun Bophirima.

MR SALESHANDO: Point of procedure.

O tlaa intshwarela go ipoeletsa, mme kana Matona ga ba re thuse, e bile ga ba thuse the record.

Fa a tsena fela a bo a bala jaaka go kwadile in the Order Paper, a bo a sa bue gore se se mo gwetlhileng gore a kope gore e e teng in the Bill e tswe, go tle e a e balang gompieno ke eng?
It is important for her to justify, o ntse a reeditse Taolo Lucas a a fa justification ya se a neng a se bua, o ntse a reeditse Rre Honourable Ramogapi, it does not help le record ya Palamente gore go bo go sa itsewe gore mme se se gwetlhileng Tona gore a re Clause 7 jaaka e ntse e tswe go tsene e a e balang e ke eng?

Ga gona le fa e le lebaka le lengwe fela le a le ntshitseng gore o ne a lebile eng, mme a le teng mabaka.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Leader of the Opposition, you could not have been more correct ngwana wa ga nkgonne, but my assumption was that the reading that she made I thought it rang bells into your good selves.

That is the reason why I left her ke sa mo reye ke re talk to that Clause, o tlhalose broadly, but briefly Honourable Minister, Honourable Saleshando is quite correct, can you motivate what you have just said briefly.

MR TSOGWANE: Point of procedure.


I think Minister Rre Molale was right kgantele.

Kana we are making laws, le mo molaong o tla fela go sena amendments, bo Minister ba tla ka molao le ditsetlana ba di baya fa pele jaaka di kwadilwe mo molaong o ba batlang gore o dirwe, because these laws were drafted by people who were made to draft molao ka fa o ntseng ka teng.
So ga ke itse gore a e tlaare molao o tla le Minister o ntse jaana o na le ditsetlana tse dintsintsi, go bo gotwe a tle a tlhalose gore tsetlana nngwe le nngwe o e tsenyeditse eng mo molaong.

That cannot be right Mr Chairperson, we are drafting laws here, we are not going to be directed on how to draft laws... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Serame o tlhola a tlhalosa gone fa.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... 30 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: May we have order please!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Interruptions!)...

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Please.

MR TSOGWANE: Mr Chairperson, Minister o tla ka disqualification for office bearers, ene o neela mabaka otlhe a disqualification in this Clause.

So gatwe a neele mabaka afe jaanong because those are the reasons for disqualification?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Amendment e tswa kae?

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Interruptions!)...

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

please.


MR TSOGWANE: …(Inaudible)…Clauses tsa gagwe, yo o sa dumalaneng le yone ga a dumalane nayo... MR CHAIRPERSON: You have made your point your Honour, ke go utlwile.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Let us have order please.
Bagaetsho, the running of this House is upon my able hands, e seng lona, fa yo mongwe a bua, mongwe le mongwe yo o buang ke a mo sireletsa... MS MOKGETHI: Mr Chairperson, the reason why we are proposing this amendment is to ensure that we have fit and proper persons who are office bearers.

So the short and tall of it is to ensure that office bearers are fit and proper persons.
In addition Mr Speaker, you will recall that there was an objection to Members of the National Assembly, Councilor, Member of Ntlo ya Dikgosi, or a holder of an office in the political party to be not qualified for appointment to hold office in a society, and so it is to provide for the removal of the previous Clause (a).

So those are my reasons Mr Chairperson.

I thank you.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Honourable Minister.

Order!

Order!
Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, fa ke re the question is that the amendment be agreed to, ke raya gore ba ba dumalanang le Motlotlegi Mmaetsho Tona ke bone ba re, “aye” fa ke re on the contrary ba ba sa dumalaneng le Motlotlegi Mmaetsho Tona ke bone ba reng “no” and ba buele kwa godimo ... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker, procedure mongwame.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Ramogapi ema pele.


Right, now the portion that we are getting to, go ya go bua Honourable Mmolotsi, followed by Honourable Ramogapi, two minutes each.

Honourable Member for Francistown South.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: You have ruled on the matter.

MR MMOLOTSI: Ke letsogo le le gologolo Mr Speaker.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order Honourable Lucas please!

Bagaetsho, I have made a ruling.


It is the duty, the responsibility of the Honourable Minister when he or she moves an amendment, a e bala, it remains her duty to explain to the House gore ke ka go reng a tla ka amendment eo, gore bakaulengwe ba gagwe mo Ntlong support her, ba ba mo ganang, ba mo gane.

Jaanong fa ke dira jalo, ke bitsa Honourable Minister, I am straight within my jurisdiction gore batho ba utlwe.

So Honourable Minister, I have called upon you to briefly state your case.
MS MOKGETHI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, the justification... HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Please, tlogela Minister a bue.

Minister.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Rraagwe Itu.

Honourable Member for Palapye.

MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Tanki motlotlegi.

Ka bokhutshwanyane fela, Tona le buile gore motho a bo a sena le fa e le mo gotweng ke criminal record, mme le sa e kgaoganye.
Ke re ke go botse ka bokhutshwanyane fela ke re, ao mma, motho wa Modimo wa re motho le fa a ne a thudile motho ka koloi, a bo a bonwa molato, kana ke criminal record, a se ka a bo a nna le fa e le mokgatlho le fa e le gope, le fa e le eng?

Ao batho ba Modimo!

Gape kana kwa kerekeng gone re sokolola magolegwa, re bo re ba dira baruti, ba na le criminal records.

Re bula dipati, re ya kwa dikgolegelong, re a ba rapelela, re a ba sokolola, ke baruti gompieno jaana, ba ba neng ba le kwa dikgolegelong.
Honourable Chairperson, o a itse Rre Moatlhodi gore re sokolola batho kwa dikgolegelong.

A ra re fa re sena go ba sokolola, ba se ka ba nna le fa e le gope mo mokgatlhong ya nna office bearers?

Ao!

ao!

31 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage batho ba Modimo, fa le tlaa bonwa ke Modimo jaanong.

Re e tlogelela lona, ke go botsa fela tsone tse pedi gore, wa re magolegwa ba se ka ba tsena gope ba ba neng ba tswa kwa toronkong ba bo ba fetsa?
Number two; a o a re le ba ba dirileng molato wa koloi fela ba se ka ba tsena gope?

Ke ema foo Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ke a go leboga Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Palapye.

Honourable Member for Sefhare-Ramokgonami, one minute, you were calling for elucidation, kampo ga se wena?

DR GOBOTSWANG: On a point of elucidation.

Ee, ke nna Mr Chairperson.


Tota ke ne ke re kana go na le kgang e ya gore ba Prisons ba ntse ba dikologa le rona ba re bolelela gore ba tla ka kgang fela ya go aga magolegwa sešha gore ba amogelwe ke setšhaba.
Jaanong fa motho a ne a le legolegwa a setse a agilwe sešha gore a tle go tsena mo setšhabeng, ka ntlha e nngwe lephata le lengwe la Puso la re, ‘nnyaa, o tlaa tswelela fela a ntse jaaka a ntse, ga re ka ke ra mo letlelela gore o ka tshwara maemo mo lekgotleng le le rileng.’ Ga se gone mo e leng gore go a tsamaelana e bile go tshwanetse gore go amogelesege Mr Chairperson.

MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Ke ya go nna very brief on this one.
Kana lebaka lengwe le re a neng re dira ditlhaloso tse re di kopang ke go rutana.

Se ke neng ke se raya fela ke gore in future Minister, fa Clause e ntse jaana, go a letlelesega fela gore go na le gore re ye go tsaya nako re bala jaaka o badile Clause 7 yotlhe e o neng o e bala, o ka bo o rile fela wa di notice gore you want to delete Clause 7 (a), o bo o ema gone foo.

It would have saved time.


Jaanong fa re go gakolola nako le nako Vice President (VP) o a šhakgala ka gore o dumela gore ga re na… fa a re lebile jaana, o bona terrorists kwa opposition.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Confine yourself to the Motion.

O ntse o bua sentle thata, o se ka wa iphaposa mo tseleng.

MR SALESHANDO: Ee.

Kana mme VP o ne a šhakgetse thata.

Jaanong Napoleon complex e o e bonang... MR CHAIRPERSON: Ke tlaa mo šhakgolola, tswaya mo go ene.

MR SALESHANDO: Ee.
MR SALESHANDO: Ee.

O ye go bala mme Mr Chairperson ka Napoleon complex, ke yone e re e bonang VP a e dira a... MR CHAIRPERSON: O rumola yo mongwe?

MR TSOGWANE: Ba ne ba ntlhodia Leader of the Opposition (LOO).

MR SALESHANDO: Ke batla go raya Tona ke re ke dumalana le Tshutiso.

Ke na le keletso ya gore fa re tlisa melao e e nang le ditshetla tse di batlang go baya ka fa mosing ba ba kileng ba nna le mathata le molao, re se ka ra supa jaaka e kete ga re na tshepho in our rehabilitation process.
Re tshwanetse ra dumela gore re agile makgotla a a ka go fetolang mo go se o neng o le sone.

Gore fa o kile wa bonwa mo molatong mo dingwageng tse di lesome tse di fetileng, it is an extreme in my view gore re bo re ka tlhaola ka tsela e e ntseng jalo.

Ke a lemoga gore tsa letsatsi la gompieno Domkrag e lebega e tsere tshwetso ya gore ga e reetse ope e reetsa yone fela.

Mma re fetele kwa pele, mme re ntshitse lentswe lone leo.

Ke a leboga.

MR KEKGONEGILE (MAUN EAST): Tanki Mr Chairperson.


Ke gore melao e fa o e bala e tla e thulana.

Maloba Clause e ya 10 years immediately preceding the date of his or her appointment been convicted kwa go ya Precious and Semi-Precious Stones, if ke e badile sentle, Honourable Lefoko o fokoditse dingwaga tseo go tswa kwa go 10 years a di isa kwa go five years.
Ke gore kwa diteemaneng kwa re tseelang gore itsholelo ya lefatshe e gone, ke five years mme kwa societies mo mekgatlhong e e ikemetseng ka nosi ke 10 years.

Jaanong o fitlhela e le gore go a thulana.

O ne o ka solofela gore mo mekgatlhong e e ikemetseng ka nosi e ka nna gongwe bo three years, bo two years.

Jaanong fa e le gore go a go pota kwa godimo ga ya Precious and Semi-Precious Stones, ga re lebe dilo sentle.

Sa bobedi ke kgang e ya six months sentence.


Kana six months sentence is 99 per cent of batho ba ba kileng ba tsena mo kgolegelong.

Mo go rayang gore fa go tla kwa societies, 99 per cent ya batho ba ba kileng ba ya kgolegelong ga ba letlelelwe gore ba ka nna baeteledipele ba societies.
Gone moo fela ka bogone, re ntse re boela kwa kgannyeng ele ya gore re kgetholola batho ba ba kileng ba tsena ka kgolegelo, mme e bile gape dikgang tsa integration le tsa gore re fetse go boela kwa kgolegelong gape, habitual offenders, ga di ka ke tsa fela, di tlaa tswelela.

Go botlhoko thata gore di bo di dirwa ke lephata le re solofelang gore ke lone le le ka bong le eteletse pele mo go ageng batho.
Then the other issue ke kgang ya gore gone mme fa o re batho ba ga ba etelele pele societies… 32 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: Your time is up Honourable Member.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O feditse, o kopa clarification mo go mang?

MR KEKGONEGILE: ...mo kgolegelong.

Tsholofelo ya rona ke gore e bo e... MR CHAIRPERSON: May we have order please!

A re emeng pele bagaetsho.

MR CHAIRPERSON: …(Inaudible)… MR KEKGONEGILE: …ke mang?
Re batla gore ba head society ya bone, ga re lebe dilo sentle.

Tanki Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister responsible and Housing Infrastructure Development.

for MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): I am a Member of Parliament for Goodhope-Mabule.

MR CHAIRPERSON: My apologies my lord!

MR MOLALE: I thank you mogwegadiake.

Mr Chairperson, what I want to bring to your attention is the problem of selective reading.
The issue raised by various speakers before me ba bua ka go sa consider rehabilitation ya batho ba ba kileng ba roba molao.

This Clause is very clear, ya re ‘has within the period of 10 years immediately preceding the date of his appointment, been convicted of those crimes tse di fale and for which he or she has not received a free pardon.’ That is proof ya gore go na le consideration ya reintegration and rehabilitation.
Jaanong go itebatsa that phrase re bo re leba fela gore Goromente o kgokgontsha batho, ga a batle to reintegrate batho, you are misleading the nation.

Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Honourable Minister for saving us time.

Honourable Member for Ngami.

MR HIKUAMA: Ke a leboga Honourable Chairperson.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ka Motlotlegi Molale o feditse, o kopa clarification mo go mang?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order please!.


MR TSOGWANE: Mr Chairperson, le ne le ntse le fiwa clarifications fa, le kopa mme motho a wetsa.

Le LOO o ne a ntse a fiwa fa.

So, do not try to be smart.

Motlotlegi Rre Molale re fetise fa ka gore o ntse o supa fela dilo tse di simple to read and understand gore ga se gore magolegwa ga a batliwe, e bile ga se gore ga ba ka ke ba amogelwa.

So, maikaelelo tota a kganetso mo dilong tse tsotlhe tse ba di ganetsang o bona e ka tswa e le eng?
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke go re jela le go re senyetsa nako.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: A re reetsaneng.

Order!

Order bagaetsho!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Bagaetsho, may we have order please!

Bagaetsho, Motlotlegi Rraarona Mothusa Tautona, kana ke go tlogetse fela o bua o sa tshwanela ka gore o rraarona.

Honourable Minister Molale o ne a sale a feditse go bua.
Ga e ka ke ya re a feditse go bua ka mo epolola gape ka re tlaa o bue gape.

Ga se yone tsamaiso ya rona.

So, ke go tlogetse fela ka gore o ntate.

MR TSOGWANE: Ke tlile go go tshwara Mr Chairperson, o ntse o na le rona fa o reeditse, ke tlile go go tshwara fela ka motsotso fela motho a feditse a bo a fiwa yo mongwe a bua.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Honourable Member for Ngami.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa.

HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR TSOGWANE): Clarification.
Ke ne ke re Motlotlegi Rre Molale re fetise fa o ise o wele.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

Bagaetsho.

Honourable Hikuama.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Motlotlegi Rre Molale o feditse.

MR TSOGWANE: Nnyaa, o clarification, ke kopile clarification a fetsa.

feditse ke kopa MR HIKUAMA (NGAMI): Ke a leboga Honourable Chairperson.

Le nna ke tshwaele fela.


Ke simolole ka gore ga ke motho yo o badileng molao thata, mme ke a tle ke utlwe gore go na le principle e nngwe e e 33 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage reng, ‘an angry law is a dead law.’ Jaanong go lebega Puso e tšhakgetse mo melaong yotlhe le Ditshutiso tse re di tsisang.

Kana Ministers ba tšhakgetse, ga re itse gore ba tšhakgaletse eng.

Ga o ka ke wa dira melao o tšhakgetse.

Ba tšhakgaletse batho.


Jaanong ga re itse gore motšhakgalo o o kanakana o, ke wa eng.

E bile ba re ba batla to achieve eng ka gore ...(Interruptions)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Go tšhakgala o a bo o bua eng?

MR HIKUAMA: Mr Chairperson, a ko o ntshireletse, batho ba a ntlhodia, maDomkrag ba a tlhodia.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Bagaetsho, let us have order.

Standing Order 58.4 is very clear, “when another Member is standing, all other Members must be silent, and they should not make unseemly interruption.” Please!
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Motho yo o senya Setswana.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mathata ga re mo tlhaloganye.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: MaDomkrag ba batona mo go ene.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Bagaetsho, order!

Honourable Member for Ngami.

MR HIKUAMA: Fa ba rata go tsosa modumo jaana, ba re go rileng, a mme ke gone go supa botona?

Go šhakgala le go tlhodia ke gone go supa botona jwa seDomkrag?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Tsena mo temeng.

MR HIKUAMA: Ee, ke ne ke re, molao o, o supa tšhakgalo.
E bile fa o tlisa dilo tse di šhakgaletseng Batswana, ga go lebege re direla Batswana bomolemo.

Fa e le gore o tennwe ke sengwe, a o ye go nwa metsi fela o ikhutse, o wele dibete, o bo o tla ka molao fela o o siameng o wetse dibete, go sena emotions.

Jaanong dingwaga tse di kanakana tse, re dumela gore motho o a bo a setse a agegile sesha.

Ga se mo a ka idiwang go nna leloko la mekgatlho.

Jaanong 10 years o montsi.


Ke sone se ke se buang, se ke neng ke re ke akgele, ke latlhele gore a re sekasekeng, a re ganeng Tshutiso e e leng molao, motho a eme, dingwaga tse 10 di di ntsi.

Ke sone se ke neng ke re ke a se bua fela Modulasetilo.

Ga ke na dikgang tse di ntsi, ke ne ke re a re fokotseng tšhakgalo, re fokotse go kgokgontsha batho.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Your time is up.


MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR KGAFELA): Se Motlotlegi Minister a se kopang fela mo paakanyong e, ke go ntsha go kgoreletswa ga Maloko a Ntlo ya Dikgosi le Makhanselara kgotsa ba e leng gore ke mapolotiki gore bone ba se ka ba kgorelediwa fa ba batla go nna office bearer.
E bile gape re tshwanetse ra lebelela gore fa gotwe 10 years, go tewa go balwa letsatsi le o bonweng molato ka lone, e seng go balwa letsatsi le o tswang mo toronkong ka lone, kgotsa letsatsi le sentence e felang ka lone.

Jaanong fa e le gore o tsene mo toronkong, mme e bo e le gore o tswa mo ngwageng wa bo six, kana tota fela go raya gore in the next four years, o santse o setse ka four years.

O kgona gore e bo e le gore after the expiration of this policy, o bo o kgona gore o tshware office.
Jaanong a ko re tseyeng fela gore fa e le gore o bonwe molato ka melato e e tshwanang le bo rape jaana, e e leng gore it is in excess of ten years, ke bo 15 years gompieno, o tshwanetse gore e re fa o tswa mo toronkong, maybe o na le two weeks o dule, e bo e le gore e bile jaanong you qualify gore you become an office bearer ka gore kana 10 years go raya gore o fetile o ntse o le mo toronkong.
Go bo go raya gore o a fela 10 years ka gore it is calculated from when you got convicted, not from when you finished your sentence.

Gape re tshwanetse ra lebelela gore le one molao o, tota fela o a supa gore o tshwanetse gore o bo o atlhotswe e le gore ga go na option of a fine, e bo e le gore ke kgolegelo fela.

Jaanong melato ka bontsi tota fela ke e mesesanyane, e tshwana le go thula motho, kgotsa go bolaya motho ka koloi e le ka phoso.
Ke selo se e leng gore e na le option of a fine, mo go rayang gore ga o ka ke wa iphitlhela jaaka Rre Ramogapi a ne a bua, e le gore you fall within the prohibition, ka gore fela fa go na le option ya fine, you are scot free, you can become an office bearer.

Modulasetilo, ke a go leboga.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs).... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

Silence please!

Re dira tiro e e masisi fa, re sa bitse leina la ga rraarona.

I am now going to put a question.


MR RAMOGAPI: Le fa o thudile motho ka koloi tota?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

The question is that the amendment be agreed to.

34 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: I am putting a question.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure.

MR CHAIRPERSON: I am putting a question Honourable Kekgonegile.

There is nothing out of procedure.

Please!

Please!
Please!

Please!

Honourable Members, the question is that the amendment be agreed to.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7 as amended agreed to.

Clause 8 agreed to.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, please motivate your amendment at Clause 9.

Clause 9 MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): The Bill provides for cancellation of registration of a society.

Bible Society has converted the financial offence.


Currently, the Act does not empower the Registrar to cancel a society that engages in or facilitate human trafficking, money laundering, terrorism financing and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

Mr Speaker, the Bill is amended at Clause 9 appearing at page B.476 by substituting for that clause, the following clause - 9.
(1) The Registrar may cancel registration of a society where - (a) the society has changed its objects without the consent of the Registrar; (b) the society has failed to comply with the provisions of Section 13; (c) there is reasonable suspicion that the society has committed a financial offence; (d) the society or its office bearer is subject to sanctions, embargos or similar measures issued by the United Nations Security Council; (e) the society or its office bearer is affiliated with a society that is subject to sanctions, embargos or similar measures issued by the United Nations Security Council; (f) the society provides funding or support for terrorist activities or finances proliferation or illicit dealing in or ammunition; or (g) the society contravenes any other written law.
(2) The Registrar shall - (a) notify the society in writing of his or her intention to cancel the registration of a society; and (b) give a society 21 days from date of notification within which the society may give reasons why the Registrar shall not cancel the society’s registration; (3) The Registrar may, after the expiry of the 21 days referred to under Sub-section (2), and after considering reasons submitted by the society, notify the society in writing of his or her decision to cancel the registration of the society within 28 days.
(4) A society shall surrender a certificate of registration issued under Section 5 (2) to the Registrar within 21 days of receipt of cancellation notice.

(5) Where a society fails to surrender the certificate of registration within the period provided for in Sub- section (4), every person who is an office-bearer of the society at the date of the cancellation of the society’s registration shall be liable to an administrative fine not exceeding P50 000, as may be imposed by the Registrar.
I so submit Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Member for Gaborone Central.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY (GABORONE CENTRAL): Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.

My concern is on these Clauses that punish on the basis of suspicion.

I think the natural justice fela ya gore o bo o tlhomamisitswe (prove) gore o dirile molato, should always prevail because anybody can be suspected of anything at any time.
Until go setse go bonwe gore motho yo o dirile phoso, I think innocent until proven guilty should always prevail.

Ke gone fa ke tshwenyegang teng Mr Chairperson, gore re tlaa nna o kare we punish batho on the basis of suspicion.

I think golo moo le gone, go dira gore the relevant authorities ba nne ditshwakga, ka gore go raya gore ga ba na go tlhotlhomisa things thoroughly, they just suspect and you will be prejudiced on the basis of suspicion.
Ke kopa fela gore a re lebeng dilo in a way that will be 35 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage fair to everybody, such that it does not make the law heavy-handed.

It gives everybody a fair chance, gore fa e le gore ke nnete o molato, then you should be punished for the wrongdoing not suspicion.

I thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Honourable Healy for saving us time, Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO).
MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): Ke a leboga Modulasetilo.

Ke dumalane le dibui tse di sa tswang go bua ya reasonable suspicion.

Jaanong ke botsa gore Tona fa a akgela, is she amenable to lebaka la gore gongwe e nne “when there is a finding by a competent court.” Fa e le gore lekgotla le bone lekgotla la go nna jalo molato mo melatong e e kwadilweng, e bo e nna gone le ka phimolwang kana la tseelwa setlankana sa gore le bo le le teng.

MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Ke a go leboga Modulasetilo.
I just have two points.

Ya ntlha ke go dumalana le se se builweng ke Mopalamente wa Gaborone Central.

Le go kopa Tona gore a o ka dumela gore re ntshe Clause 9 (1) (c), gore o ka ntshiwa mo registration if there is reasonable suspicion that the society has committed a financial offence.
Ke na le mathata le reasonable suspicion, ya gore o dirile offence, re itse gore ba bangwe ba kgona go go isa kgolegelong ka gore ba na le reasonable suspicion ya gore o utswile selo se se seyong, gore o utswile P100 billion.

Mo go bone e le reasonable suspicion, ba bo ba go tsenya kgolegelo.

Fa e le gore ra re reasonable suspicion e nna gore e bile o ka emisa (cancel) go kwadisiwa ga lekgotla, ga se gone Tona, o feteletse.
Sa bobedi se se tonatona se o se dirileng mo bogompieno ke gore, e ya reasonable suspicion le fa re ntse re e bala under …(Inaudible)… e ne e le teng mo molaong, ke ne ke tseetse gore le yone o tlaa e ntsha.
Ke lebogele gore o ntshitse Clause 9 (1) (a) ya gore, “the societies branch of or affiliated; (2) or connected with any organisation or group of a political nature established outside Botswana.” Ke lebogela gore o e ntshitse, ka gore ke ne ke lemoga gore go ntse go na le letshogo fela la gore fa gotwe political, le batla to cancel.
Le bua jaana le tswa kwa phathing ya Domkrag e e nang le relationship le bo Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front (ZANU-PF), mme le sa batle gore lona le ka e omanyediwa kana la botswa dipotso gore tota botsalano jwa lona le ZANU-PF, e dira tse e di dirang, ke eng le sa bo emise.

Ke go lebogele go bo o ntshitse eo, ka gore e ne e sa tlhokafale gotlhelele.

Ke wela ka gore pele ga re sutisa, fa e le gore Tona ga a move go letlelelwa, let us delete (c).
Ga o ka ke wa ntsha batho mo registration fela ka gore wa re fa le ba lebile jaana, le a ba belaela gore ba ka tswa ba dirile molato.

O tshwanetse gore o lebisiwe molato wa gago, o ikarabele.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Leader of the Opposition (LOO), your is up.

Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Selebi Phikwe Bophirima.

time E nngwe e e ntshwenyang Modulasetilo, ke e gotweng fa lekgotla le ntse le tsweletse e bo e le gore le fetola its objectives.
Kana makgotla are learning organisations, fa e le gore you have studied the organisational development.

Ke ka dumalana to the extent that, changing of objectives e nna negative in the sense that it is moving towards go ne go dira melato e lekgotla le tlaa bonang molato.
Fa e le gore ke changing objectives, developing, e le gore gongwe le ne le re you promote democracy, e bo fa le ntse le tsweletse le bo le tsenya gongwe ditshwanelo tsa itsholelo kana human rights, go bo gotwe jaanong gone moo le ka tseelwa setlankana ka gore le fetotse objectives.

Nnyaa, ke dumela gore let us qualify ya go fetola the objectives, gore re raya fa go diragetse jang.

Because as I say, makgotla are evolving.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Clarification sought.


MR KEORAPETSE: Ke dumela gore nako ya teng e nnyennyane.

Ya 21 days Mr Chairperson, tota he who alleges must prove, it is as easy as that.

Fa e le gore la re lekgotla le dira molato kana… MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable Member for Selebi Phikwe West, your time is up.

Go ya go bua Motlotlegi Tona wa Peeletso, Papadi le Madirelo e bile e le Mopalamente wa Mochudi West, Honourable Kgafela.
(MR KGAFELA): Ke a MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, TRADE AND INDUSTRY leboga Modulasetilo.

Tona kana fa a tlisa paakanyo e, fa le ka e lebelela, o baakantse tsetlana e le nngwefela.

O ntshise Part A e e neng LOO a bua ka yone, e e neng e supa gore ba ba amanang le sepolotiki, le bone ba tlaa iphitlhela e le gore ka mabaka a gore ba ne ba le mo society se bo se emisiwa, that is the only amendment that she has effected.
Although tota fela e rile fa a baakanya dipampiri tsa gagwe, she substituted including which are not touched at all Mr Chairperson, because fa o lebelela the rest of the Clauses they remain the same.

It is only Clause A in the old Bill, which gets removed.

36 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage Gape to allay the fears tsa batlotlegi ba ba buang gore tota fela e tlaa re o na le reasonable suspicion e bo gotwe go a emisiwa, kana fa o ka lebelela tsetlana 2 (a) and (b) di a supa gore go na le process.

Fa go nna le dipelaelo tse, go raya gore tota fela mmelaelwa o a kwalelwa, o a bolelelwa gore a supe gore a dipelaelo tse a di a iphetlha kgotsa di na le boammaaruri mo go tsone.

So there is that check and balance, e e tlaa mo fang that opportunity.
Of course fa e le gore against representation e a e dirang, the Registrar nonetheless o tswelela pele a dira se ene a bonang se le matshwanedi a bo a emisa, they are entitled to take the Registrar on review.

I think it will be onerous on Government, jaaka Rre Keorapetse a bua gore he who alleges must prove.

It will be onerous on Government gore e bo jaanong ke yone kgapetsakgapetsa e tsayang batho e ba isa kgotlatshekelo.
Government is entitled to take decisions, e bo e le gore when those decisions are adverse, they can be challenged.

It is not the other way round Mr Chairperson, where tota fela if Government wants to take an administrative decision, e bo e le gore jaanong e ya kgotlatshekelo pele.

Ga go ise go ko go diragale jalo, all decisions are taken ka gone gore there is a presumption of regularity in favour of Government gore what it does, it is presumed to be regular.
Wena yo e leng gore you want to prove it wrong, then it is for you to rebut that presumption… MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable Minister, you have made your point.

Honourable Minister Mokgethi, please respond to all the submissions as done by your colleagues.

MS MOKGETHI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

There is only one or two comments which I would like to respond on.
The first one comes from Honourable Mangwegape-Healy, Member of Parliament (MP) for Gaborone Central, who proposed that we delete (c), and he was supported by Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO) for the removal of (c).

I agree with them wholeheartedly that you cannot expect the cancellation of registration of a society based on a mere suspicion.

For that reason, I agree that we should delete (c).

Thank you Mr Speaker.

MR CHAIRPERSON: The question is that the amendment be agreed to.
MR SALESHANDO: Procedure.

Mr Chairperson, o re gakolole, a ga se gore pele we deal le an amendment to your amendment?

In other words, we first have to deal with the deletion of 9 (1) (c).

Fa e sena go feta, re bo jaanong re fetisa Clause 9 jaaka e ntseng mme e sena (c), go raya gore di ya go nna pedi Ditshutiso mo go yone e. Ke a leboga.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, you have remembered what to do?

Please go ahead Honourable Minister.


MS MOKGETHI: What I wanted to say Mr Chairperson, is that the amendment has not yet been effected, so Honourable LOO cannot say it is an amendment of an amendment because the amendment had not yet been effected.

MR SALESHANDO: Anyway Mr Chairperson, maybe your Parliamentary Counsel (PC) can guide on this one.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, ka fa ke go utlwang ka teng kana motlotlegi, a wa re ga o dumalane le go ntsha temana e e neng Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Maun Bophirima a e kopa?

Ke batla gore o papamale morena wa me.

MS MOKGETHI: Are you referring to me Mr Chairperson?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes please, Madam Minister.

MS MOKGETHI: Mr Chairperson, this amendment on the removal of (c) was proposed by Honourable Mangwegape-Healy of Gaborone Central, and it was also supported by Honourable Saleshando, LOO.
What I am doing is just basically to disagree with LOO in the sense that he is saying that we first have to agree to the amendment.

I am saying that we have not yet effected the amendment, so we cannot call it the amendment of an amendment.

MR SALESHANDO: Gatwe a o dumalana le go ntshiwa ga (c), ke ee kana nnyaa.

A o tlhokana le gore (c) a ntshiwe; yes Mr Chairperson, no Mr Chairperson.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Honourable Members, ke le utlwile lotlhe.


LEARNED PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Since the Minister is amenable to the amendment, what I understood those who are proposing that this be done to be saying is that, the Minister must make this part of her amendment.

If that 37 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage were to be done and be neat, the Minister can now make this part of her proposal and read her Clause minus that paragraph.

Therefore, this would be her amendment ‘without (c)’ because she is agreeing with those who are proposing that this be removed.

It can be a, b, also to ensure that we do not even need to do renumbering, so we will be doing (a), (b), (c) and (d) will be not be appearing as (c) because now she is reading her amendment without (c).

Thank you.
Thank you.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank Parliamentary Counsel (LPC).

you Learned MS MOKGETHI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

I think what PC is proposing is entirely different from what LOO is saying, but I am amenable to her suggestion.

Accordingly, the Bill is amended at Clause 9 by deleting 9 (1) c. I so submit Mr Chairpeson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Let us have order please.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Ramogapi!
Honourable Kekgonegile please!

LEARNED ACTING PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL: Ke ne ke re Minister, since your amendment is still on the floor and not been voted on, the purpose as the Chairperson has said earlier ya gore an amendment e bewe on the floor and let everybody put their suggestions out and if you agree to take it as yours, so if you are agreeing with the reasoning that (c) is not necessary as we did with the previous one, make it a correction that 9 be read without (c).
You read your 9 as it is in its entirety at least, so that you read it o sa bale (c), as though (c) is not there.

What you are doing is that you are reading (a)… Ke gore (c) does not exist gotlhelele, so you number (a), (b), (c), (d) mme go raya gore you are renumbering in your reading.

I do not know if I am really making sense but that is what I am trying to say because you are agreeing with them.
Read it as though you are making the correction yourself and therefore… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute.

Order please!

MR TSOGWANE: Procedure.

My procedure Mr Chairperson, let us not complicate this, it is a very simple process.

Fa o dirile numbering e bo e sa tsamaelane jaaka e ntse, e tla kwa bofelong, e nna a consequential amendment.

Renumbering ga e re sepe fela, fa a tlodile (c) yoo, e tlaa re kwa bofelong go bo go nna le a consequential amendment ya renumbering.
HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Let us have order please!

Learned Parliamentary Counsel, finally.

Order!

Honourable Mmolotsi, please!

LEARNED ACTING PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL: Go botlhokwa gore renumbering e tle e tshwanelwe to be moved.

Therefore, she is reading it and doing it already in the floor.

She is reading this Clause now which was not there in the Order Paper.

She is moving it in the floor.

Fa e le gore o dira jalo here, she does not have to move rearrangement of renumbering.
She is renumbering here already.

Therefore, a a bale a re, (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) mme (c) wa gagwe e ya go nna (d).

There will be no need to do renumbering because the votes will capture whatever she is saying.

We would not have to do anything because we have to capture it the way it is, otherwise, we are going to print the law with the error.

Therefore, if I am coming across clearly, Honourable Minister, read (a), (b) (d) e bo e nna (c), (e) e bo e nna (d), (f) e bo e nna (e), (g) e bo e nna (f).
That is what I am suggesting.

You would have removed (c).

That is what I am suggesting.

MR TSOGWANE: Sorry Mr Chairperson.

A Learned Advisor a re go dirwe jalo.

Lantlha go tulwe re tlhophele cancellation ya (c), jaanong ene a re a go balwe fela and forget or ignore (c) gore ga e sa tlhole e le teng.

She has moved gore she is cancelling kana o dumalana le ba ba reng it has to be cancelled.

She has moved, it must be carried out by a vote.

Ga go ka ke gatwe bala fela as if (c) is not existing.
It cannot.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: E nna correction, which is permissible.

MR TSOGWANE: Gakere correction eo e tshwanetse to be voted for ka gore it is cancelled.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: It cannot be voted for if it is a correction.

25 years of learning nothing about making laws.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Let us have order please!

Order!

Please.

Order!

MR TSOGWANE: Rre Keorapetse, it is not a correction ka gore… 38 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.
38 OF 2021) Committee Stage HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Vice President (VP), order!

Please.

Order!

Standing Order 78.10, “an amendment, proposed new Clause or proposed new Schedule upon which a question have been proposed may be withdrawn at the request of the mover by leave of the Committee before the question has been fully put on it, if no Member objects.” Honourable Minister, I am just trying to help you, the ball is in your court.
MS MOKGETHI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

I am amenable to the proposal laid by Parliamentary Counsel.

Accordingly, I will proceed as follows, “the Bill is amended at Clause 9 appearing at page B.476 by substituting for that Clause, the following Clause - 9.
(1) The Registrar may cancel registration of a society where - (a) the society has changed its objective without the consent of the Registrar; (b) the society has failed to comply with the provisions of Section 13; (c) the society or its office bearer is subject to sanctions, embargos or similar measures issued by the United Nations Security Council; (d) the society or its office bearer is affiliated with a society that is subject to sanctions, embargos or similar measures issued by the United Nations Security Council; (e) the society provides funding or support for terrorist activities or finances proliferation or illicit dealing in arms or ammunition; (f) the society contravenes any other law.
I so submit Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Honourable Minister.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9 as amended agreed to.

Clause 10 10 (1) (f), tse di tlhokang consent of Registrar gore Registrar a ye go dumalana le tsone.

Go na le e e sa tlhokafaleng gore e bo e le teng.


Ke e reng, “a society shall not become a branch or affiliated or connected with any organisation or group of a political nature established outside Botswana.” Yone e Mr Chairperson, re sa tswa go ntsha kwa Clause 9 (1) (a) e e neng e na le maikaelelo a a tshwanang le one a.

Re a itse gore ga go na gore ba ka fetola objectives, re buile jalo kwa (1).

Therefore, ga go tlhokafale gore you cannot become a branch.
Gakere gore o nne branch o tswe mo go se o mo go sone o itire party, kana o nne branch ya party, go raya gore o fetola objectives.

Se se sa letlelelweng ke Clause 9.

Gape re rile golo mo ga gore o se ka gatwe you cannot affiliate or wa nna connected with an organisation or group of a political nature, ga se molato.

Political nature bagaetsho, ga go tewe party ya sepolotiki.

This adjective political nature or political organisation ga e reye party ya sepolotiki.
Lekgotla le le dirisanang le dilo tse di tshwanang le public policy, they are considered to be of a political nature.

Ke tlaa go fa sekai; Botswana Institute of Development Policy Analysis (BIDPA) ke lekgotla le e leng gore it is of a political nature to the extent that it influences public policy.

Ke kopa gore Mr Chairperson, re ntshe tshetlana e, ka gore fa re sena go ntsha e re e ntshitseng kwa go 9, mme re bo re sa ntshe e, re a bo re sa itse se re se dirang.
Gore re ntshe 9 (1) (a) mme re bo re tswelela ka 10 (1) (f), re tlaabo re ikganetsa.

I move that we remove Clause 10 (1) (f).

Ke a leboga.

MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

E e tlhamaletse fela, tota ke kgakololo, thuso kana ke correction gore nnyaa, kana Tona o setse a e ntshitse ka kwa, jaanong go raya gore e tlhagelela fa ka phoso, tota fa go ntse jaana, ke go baakanya fela.
Ke tsaya gore re ka bo re bua fela re re, a re direng correction, re ntsheng 10 (f) ga e tlhokafale, Tona o setse a e ntshitse, ke repetition e e neng e tla e tswa ka kwa.

Ke tsaya gore le ene o a tlhaloganya, ga e na bana ba phefo, mme ga re itse, kana ba ka tloga ba gana golo mo go tlhamaletseng bone ba, Mr Chairperson, mma re eme gone fa, re ba tlogele.

Ke dumalana le Honourable Saleshando gore e ke e e tlhamaletseng, ga se e e batlang sepe, ke go mmaakanyetsa.

Ke a leboga.
Ke a leboga.

MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Ke batla go dira amendment without notice mo Clause 10.

E ke batlang e baakanngwa ke MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Honourable Member for Palapye, you have saved us a bit of time.

39 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.
Ke ne ke re ke dumalane le Honourable Saleshando ka removal ya 10 (1) (f) ka gore tota fa o e tlogela e ntse jaana, e nna dingalo kgang yone e ya political nature, it can be subject to elastic interpretation.

Ke gore fa o tsaya makalana a a tshwanang le bo Westminster Foundation for Democracy (WFD), e le gore go na le lekgotla le le ikamanyang le one, go motlhofo fela gore o kare lekgotla leo le connected to an organisation of a political nature.
Fa o tsaya makgotla a bobegadikgang a a tshwanang le bo INK Investigative Journalism a a rotloediwang ke bo Open Society ya bo the billionaire Philanthropist George Soros, go motlhofo gore o kare makgotla a a rotloediwa ke makgotla a a inaakantseng le sepolotiki, mme gone go se molato.

Ke tsaya gore yone objective fela e Honourable Minister a e fitlheletseng ka go baakanya kwa morago, e tlaabo jaanong e le gore is negated fa re ka se ke re ntshe yone 10 (1) (f).
Ke ne ke re e nne jalo Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, e se ka ya nna o kare re tshosiwa ke lefoko “political” a bo e le gore le tlaa nna le tshabelwa kgakala.

Ke a leboga.

MR HIKUAMA (NGAMI): Ke a leboga Honourable Chairperson.

Le nna ke dumalana le thuto.

Kana ga ke e tseye e le amendment, ke thuto e e tlhamaletseng, e e rutang setšhaba sotlhe le maDomkrag otlhe ba ba tsayang gore lefoko politics ke sebe.
E bile le setse le rotloeditswe in public forums, it can be used le mo Dikgotleng tota gotwe ga re letlelele sepolotiki mo Kgotleng, go buiwa ka letlhoko la metsi le dikokelwana.

I think if we understand the political nature to be something of public importance, we cannot criminalise this word, e bile ga re ka ke ra itsa dilo tse di siameng, tse di amanang le sepolotiki le matshelo a batho ka gore sepolotiki tota sone se bua ka matshelo le dikeletso tsa batho le go tokafatsa ditirelo.
Jaanong fa re ka le tlogela foo, le tlaabo le kgoreletsa, ke gore ka mabaka a a kalo, re tshwanetse ra e ntsha fela re sa debate ka gore tota it sets a wrong precedent and criminalising politics.

Ke a leboga.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Honourable Member for Ngami.

Ga ke itse gore rraarona Motlotlegi Rraetsho Mothusa Tautona, e bile o le Motlotlegi Moeteledipele wa Ntlo e, letsogo le ke la gompieno kana ke la kgantele?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Please go ahead Honourable Vice President (VP).
MR TSOGWANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, I raise my hand to seek guidance in the sense that kana this law has been brought by the Minister, and as she has just recently yielded to an amendment which was moved by two members, and she did so by pronouncing her position.

At this juncture Mr Chairperson, before we put the question, it would be wise to hear her wisdom or whether she agrees with it or not.
So tota the purpose of raising my hand was to seek guidance from the Minister herself because it seems other people are supporting or they are debating this without giving the Minister a chance to explain herself.

So that is the purpose of raising my hand Mr Chairperson.

I hope she will have an opportunity to do so.

I thank you.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

Motlotlegi Rraetsho Tona wa Peeletso, Papadi le Madirelo.

MR RAMOGAPI: Procedure Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ema pele Minister.


MR RAMOGAPI: Point of procedure.

Honourable VP o ne a re thusa kana for the purpose of effectiveness gore re utlwe gore Tona a reng.

Jaanong ke ne ke tsaya gore Honourable VP o bua sentle, go na le gore re golole tlou le maroo, mme tota gongwe Minister a dumela.

Ke ne ke tsaya gore from the VP le tlaa neela... MR CHAIRPERSON: You have made your point on that issue.
Motlotlegi Tona wa chapter e re mo go yone o tsholeditse letsogo, ke ya kwa go ene, go raya gore re ne re supile Rraetsho Kgafela ka phoso.

MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

I would only agree to this amendment partially.

The reason is that many churches and organisations have branches and affiliation or connected with organisations outside the country, particularly churches.
We have said that we are removing political parties, I would agree only to the removal of the words ‘of a political nature’ from this Clause.

So I agree with him partially... MR TSOGWANE: Nnyaa, ga ke ise ke tsholetse kgantele, ke la gompieno.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ne ke kopa gore fa a ise a fetse ke tle ke kope tlhaloso.

40 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage MS MOKGETHI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
MR CHAIRPERSON: You are still on the floor gakere Motlotlegi Tona of Nationality?

You are still holding on to your slot?

MS MOKGETHI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR SALESHANDO: Ee, rra ke a leboga.

Ke a go utlwa Tona Mokgethi, but ke go reye ke re, kana ka fa e kwadilweng ka teng, maikaelelo a yone totatota ga se fela go kgetholola mekgatlho e e kwa ntle, ke go kgetholola mekgatlho e e kwa ntle ya sepolotiki.
Mo go rayang gore fa o ka ntsha from (f) fela o re, “of a political nature” what remains would not be intelligent.

I want to read to you what would remain; ya re “a society shall not change or (f) become a branch of or affiliate to or connected with any organisation or group established outside Botswana.” Fa o rialo jaanong e itaya tsone dikereke tse o buang ka tsone.

E e tsenyeditswe fa fela go itebaganya le tsa sepolotiki, ke sone se e kwalegileng fela jaaka o bona 9 (1) (a) a kwadilwe.
E wena o e ntshitseng pele ga o tla fa.

Ke sone se ke neng ke re, a yone 10 (1) (f) which is a mirror of 9 (1) (a) e ntshiwe ka gore fa o ka ntsha fela “of a political nature” jaanong o tlaabo o otlhaya bone ba o reng ga o batle go ba otlhaya.

Fa maikaelelo e ne e le go otlhaya kana go kganela ba ba tlaabong ba amana le mekgatlho ya sepolotiki e e ka tswang e le kwa ntle ga Botswana.
Fa e le gore o a dumalana gore ga go tlhokafale gore go diriwe jalo, ke ne ke kopa gore a re dumalane gore e ntshiwe yotlhe jaaka e ntse.

Ke a leboga.

MS MOKGETHI: Based on the explanation that he has just given Mr Chairperson, I would agree with him entirely to the removal of (f).

I so submit Mr Chairperson.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ne ke go laletse, kana go ne go raya gore le bo Zion Christian Church (ZCC) o a ba ntsha.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!

)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!


Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO), now that the Honourable Minister has acceded to your proposal, you need to formally read that to us, read that to the House.

We have transacted that to your good self.

MR SALESHANDO: Am I expected to read the entire 10 (1)?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Please read the amendment that we have just sent to your good self Honourable LOO.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: The entire 10 (1) without (f).


MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Member for Maun East, you are being insubordinate, I have called upon your boss, Honourable LOO, o a didimala wena.

MR KEKGONEGILE: Chairperson, I am guiding him.

…(Inaudible)…Mr MR CHAIRPERSON: He is to be guided by me, not you.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Honourable Member for Palapye.


MR SALESHANDO: Mr Chairperson, I move that the Bill be amended at Subsection 10 (1) on page B.476 by; (a) Deleting paragraph (f), and (b) Renumber the sub-clause.

I move accordingly.

Amendment agreed to.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga re a utlwa Talita.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Bua le bone foo o oketse nako Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ke gore o a rumolwa, o bo o itetlelela go rumolega le wena.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Chairperson, o oketse nako.


MR CHAIRPERSON: Ke tlaa e oketsa Tona.

Clause 10 as amended agreed to.

Clauses 11 - 21 agreed to.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, there is a proposed amendment at Clause 22.

Clause 22 MR LUCAS (BOBONONG): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.
Ke senka go sutisa gore re dire phetogo mo Clause 22 (2) mme for purposes of record mma ke bale fa ke re, the Bill is amended in Clause 22 appearing on page B.480, by substituting for Subclause (2) the following new subclause - 41 Hansard No 204Wednesday 2nd February, 2022SOCIETIES BILL, 2021 (NO.

38 OF 2021) Committee Stage “(2) The Chairperson of the Council shall be elected by the members of the Council among their number.” MR CHAIRPERSON: Standing Order 27.1.

MR TSOGWANE: The one I want to move?


Se se diragalang fa ke gore mo go Societies Bill, go supafala gore go tlaa nna le a council e e bidiwang gotwe ke yone Advisory and Arbitration Council, ke gore e e leng gore tota tiro ya yone e tona e tlaabo e le go tlisa bogakolodi jo bo farologaneng mabapi le makgotla.

E bile go na le gore e ka tshereganya makgotla fa go na le bothata jo bo rileng.

Council e e na le bodirelapuso mo teng, e na le batho ba ba tswang from different societies, six of them.
Jaanong se se diragalang fa ke gore, the proposed Bill kgotsa Molao-kakanyetso o supa gore mme motho who will be chairing council e o tlaabo a tlhophiwa ke Minister.
Jaanong kgang e ke nang le yone fa ke re re leke go e baakanya ke gore, e-e Chairperson wa Council e, ka gore e bile e ikemetse ka nosi, a go dirwe gore bone ba ba tlaabong ba kgobokane foo e le members of societies le bodirelapuso jo bo tlaabong bo le foo, ba neelwe sebaka le marapo a gore ba itlhophele Modulasetilo, go na le gore a bo a tlhophiwa ke Minister.
Ka gore tota jaanong fa o simolola o tlisa Minister gore e nne ene a tlhophang Modulasetilo, go a itshupa fela gore o a bo a batla gore a itlele, a ikgogele motho wa gagwe, yo e leng gore ke ene yo a tlaabong gongwe influencing and dominating batho ba e leng gore ke bone ba council e. Go raya gore mme jaanong kwa bofelong council e e tlaabo e sa neele dikgakololo tse di tsepameng, tse di tletseng, e tlaabo e neela dikgakololo e lebile gore e tlhophilwe ke ene Minister.
I think go a tlhokafala gore when we form makgotla, a se ka a kgotlelesega, ka gore baeteledipele ba one ba tlhophilwe ke Minister, le bone ba ka itlhophela.

Mme Mr Chairperson, ke sone se ke reng... MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you sir.

MR LUCAS: Mme o a nkgopakgopetsa.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ke a laola, le mphile fa go etelela tiro, ke batla productivity.

Thank you Honourable Lucas.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Let us have order please.
BUSINESS MOTION LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Mr Chairperson, I do not have my Standing Orders with me here.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes sir.

MR TSOGWANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

You read my mind Mr Chairperson.

I want to move in terms of Standing Order 27.1 that we vary the times of today’s sitting by having an additional two hours.

Mr Chairperson, I so move.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Interruptions!)...


MR TSOGWANE: O duelela nako e o ntseng o tshameka ka yone e. Re tshwanetse gore re fetse, dilo tse re tshwanetse gore re di fetse.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

A re reetseng.

Ke a leboga Batlotlegi Mapalamente, rotlhe re utlwile mogopolo wa ga rraarona.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order please!

Honourable Member for Sefhare-Ramokgonami, ke itse mantswe a lona.
Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Bobonong o mo floor ka Motion wa go dira amendment, tsamaiso ke gore re fetse pele ka Motion wa ga Motlotlegi Rraetsho Lucas, fa re fetsa ka one Motlotlegi Rraarona Moeteledipele wa Ntlo can come in with his Motion.

So ke utlwetse gakere batsadi ba me?

Go ya go bua Motlotlegi rraetsho Tona wa tsa Infrastructure and Housing Development.

MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, mogwagwadiake.
Nnyaa ...(Inaudible)… accountable for this law for Parliament.

So the implementation of this law when it was reported kwa Palamenteng.

...(Interruptions)... Ke mang yo o lelang?

MR CHAIRPERSON: We are not running a nursery here, ke ...(Inaudible)… le bana ba gago.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ngwana wa ga Yandani Boko.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke wa ga Boko.

Yandani, didimatsa ngwana.

42 Hansard No 204BUSINESS MOTIONWednesday 2nd February, 2022 MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

We are not at crèche here, order!


MR MOLALE: Ke ne ke re the Minister is accountable to this very House mo implementation of this law and she or he, is the one who chooses all members of this committee or council.

Jaanong for her to be accountable effectively, she has to have a say in the running of the affairs of the council and therefore, she has to elect, select or appoint the leader of the council.
Ga gona ka fa go ka tweng go dirwa favouritism ka teng ka gore the fact that ...(Interruptions)... all members of the council.

Ga go ka ke gatwe o dirile favouritism.

(2) We are being democratic here.

The Minister has a say in electing the leadership.

(3) Council also has a say in electing the leadership of the council.

So, there is shared responsibility and accountability in as far as electing the leadership of the council.
So, ga re ka ke ra neela only one side to have a complete say ya gore who will be the leadership of the council.

The Minister as the principal accounting person to Parliament, has to have the first say.

Jaanong ga ke ka ke ka dumalana le tsamaiso eo Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Your time is up Honourable Minister.

MR MOLALE: Thank you.
GOBOTSWANG DR (SEFHARE- RAMOKGONAMI): Mr Chairperson, ke emelela go ema nokeng Tshutiso ya ga Honourable Lucas, Mopalamente wa Bobonong, gore go tlhophiwa ga Modulasetilo wa Komiti e ya Advisory and Arbitration, e bo e le gore o tlhophiwa ke maloko a komiti yone e. Go siame e bile go a tsamaelana ka gore mothusa modulasetilo wa komiti e, molao o o supa gore o tlaabo a tlhophiwa ke one maloko a komiti yone e. Ke bona go tshwanetse gore re ka bo re tsamaile fela jalo ra nna consistent gore fa e le gore re tshepha gore komiti e e ka itlhophela mothusa modulasetilo, fela jalo e tshwanetse gore e tshephiwe gore e ka tlhopha modulasetilo.
Lebaka le letona ke gore Tona o tlhophile maloko a komiti e, mme gore kwa bofelong a bo a tlhopha le modulasetilo, yo e leng gore o tshwanetse gore a gakolole, e bo ba tshereganye, e bo e le gore o tlhophiwa ke Minister, kana jaanong go tlaabo go raya gore tota Minister o berekela ka fa tlase ga kgatelelo gore modulasetilo yoo o tlhophilwe ke Tona.
Dilo tse tota bagaetsho, ga re a tshwanela gore re dire gore Tona e bo e le gore o laola sengwe le sengwe mo e leng gore tota dikomiti tse di felela di sena mosola ka gore jaanong di tlaabo di laolwa ke Tona le ministry boemong jwa gore ba ka itirela ditsamaiso tsa bone.

Le kwa Village Development Committee (VDC) tota ba itlhophela modulasetilo Honourable Molale.

Ke a leboga.

MR TSOGWANE: Procedure.

Maybe you must guide me here Mr Chairperson.

Kana you stopped me halfway when I wanted to move.


But what I wanted to move was in aid of what we are doing so that we complete the business of today’s Order Paper.

Having stopped me Mr Chairperson, I do not know what is going to happen if time catches up with us while we are still debating the Clause which has been moved by Honourable Lucas.

MR SALESHANDO: I can assist Mr Chair with what should happen if we run out of time.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ema pele ngwana wa ga nkgonne.


You know I am a moving dictionary as far as the procedures of Parliament are concerned.

His Honour the Vice President is right.

I am going to allow him to move his Motion and then we shall proceed.

Honourable Leader of the House.

MR SALESHANDO: Before we vote on it Mr Chair, I would like to raise a point of order.

MR CHAIRPERSON: We have not yet voted ngwana wa ga nkgonne.

MR SALESHANDO: I would like to raise a point of order before the vote.
MR CHAIRPERSON: I shall attend to you ngwana wa ga nkgonne.

BUSINESS MOTION LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to move in terms of Standing Order 27.1 to extend today’s sitting by two hours in order to at least exhaust what has been on our Order Paper today.

I know we have taken a lot of time Mr Chairperson and we were not able to follow today’s work as it could have been.
So, in the interest of time and these Bills, being very urgent, I wish to move Mr Chairperson in terms of that Standing Order, that we extend today’s sitting by at least two hours.

43 Hansard No 204BUSINESS MOTIONWednesday 2nd February, 2022 MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, the question before the House is that today’s business be extended by two hours.

MR TSOGWANE: Go setse go tlhophilwe.

MR SALESHANDO: Ga go ise go tlhophiwe.

MR SALESHANDO: Point of order Mr Chairperson.


MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Leader of the Opposition, ga o mme ka digela pele ngwana wa ga nkgonne, then I will come to you, so that it can be neat?

MR SALESHANDO: Ee rra, before we vote.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ke a leboga ngwana wa ga nkgonne.

Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, the question before the House is that today’s business on our Order Paper be extended by at least two hours.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order e tshwanetse gore e tsene re ise re tlhophe.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

Ramogapi, order please!

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Iketle Ramogapi.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order please!

Honourable Members.

Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, the question before the House is that today’s business be extended by at least two hours.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Aye!

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure.

MR SALESHANDO: Mr Chairperson, re dumalane gore o tlaa letlelela point of order before we vote.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa.


MR SALESHANDO: Nnyaa, Mr Chairperson, you agreed.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Let us have order please.

Ke dumalane le Honourable Leader of the Opposition gore re fetise Motion o. MR SALESHANDO: Nnyaa, ga re a dumalana.

Ke rile point of order before the voting, because it is completely out of order Mr Chairperson se re se dirang gone jaana and I want to bring that to your attention.
Fa o letlelela vote e tsena ke ise ke bue, o tlaabo o raya gore o ganne the point of order, because e tlaabo e sa tlhole e raya sepe fa go ka tlhophiwa.

I need to bring to your attention... HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is bogus vote, a e boele kwa morago.

MR SALESHANDO: Ee, let us not take shortcuts, just because the Vice President (VP) wants to run the House.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Go tshwanetse gore go tsene procedure le point of order pele.

Gape kana he has... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order Honourable Ramogapi!
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke tshwanetse gore ke go tsenye mo tseleng VP, ke go gakolole.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Ramogapi, please!

Motho yo o sutisitseng mogopolo ke Motlotlegi Moeteledipele wa Kganetso, somebody who is your leader.

You must show respect to him.

O didimale fa a buile.

Do not be insubordinate!

Jaanong, re utlwane bagaetsho.


Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Maun Botlhaba, se ke neng ke tshaba gore se ya go diragala ngwana wa ga mogolole, nako ya 7 o’clock e ne e ya go tšhaya re sena tetla ya gore re bo re bua re sena tetla.

Ke sone se nne o utlwa ke go kopa, and le gompieno ke santse ke ntse ke go kopa gore o dumalane le nna my leader, gore I was right and ke ne ka go tshephisa gore fela fa ke digela, o tlaabo o tla ngwana wa ga mogolole, please.
MR SALESHANDO: It warrants gore e dirwe before vote e wela ka gore ga o ise o re …(Interruptions)… I want to raise something that is very critical, se se setseng se dumalanwe gore go dirwe jang fa dilo tse di sa fele.

Se re se dirang fa, ga se sone se se dumalanweng ke Business Advisory Committee.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Ngwana wa ga mogolole, I want you to understand gore much as I cannot argue with you about the resolutions of the Business Advisory Committee, kopo ya rona ke gore re digele Bills tse pedi tse di setseng fela.

Ke yone kopo ya me ngwana wa ga nkgonne.

Ke go ikobetse thata.

MR SALESHANDO: …(Inaudible)… explain to why the proposal by the Leader of the House is out of order.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO), I know, ke mmadi wa Standing Order, se le se dumalaneng…(Interruptions)… 44 Hansard No 204BUSINESS MOTIONWednesday 2nd February, 2022 HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Honourable Member for Ngami, o motho yo re ntseng re dirisana fela sentle, o se ka wa itetla gore ba go tlhasele, ke tlaa go sireletsa e bile.

Bagaetsho, mmang ke le gakolole tsamaiso ya Ntlo.


Ditshwetso tse di tsewang ke Business Advisory Committee do not supersede the decisions of the whole House.

I am here to… HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… CHAIRPERSON: MR Kekgonegile please.

I am here… Order!

Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, Mr Chairperson, le go ntheetsa kana o gana go ntheetsa.

taken a HONOURABLE MEMBER: We have decision in this House Mr Speaker, gore ga go na sepe se se tlaa tlang … (Interruptions)… in this House.
Re gakolola wena.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Chairperson.

Procedure Mr MR SALESHANDO: Mma ke digele.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ke go utlwile Honourable Chief Whip.

Honourable LOO, you have made your point, ke kopa gore o digele.

MR SALESHANDO: Ee.

O ntshireletse mo Napoleon complex e re e bonang kwa go Vice President (VP) … MR CHAIRPERSON: Ema pele Honourable LOO, ema pele ntate.
Ke kopa re tlotlane, le kgantele ke kile ka utlwa o bua ka Napoleon complex, and that alone does not auger well for me… (Interruptions)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ene a e nthutileng… MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Honourable Leader of the House.

It is imputing improper motives on another member.

Ka jalo, ke a go kopa Motlotlegi Moeteledipele wa Kganetso, ka fa ke go tlotlang ka teng, ke kopa gore o boela mafoko ao morago a Napoleon… MR CHAIRPERSON: Tanki Honourable Lesedi.
Bagaetsho, ke tlhalositse gore tsamaiso ke eng.

MR SALESHANDO: Ke a boela morago.

MR SALESHANDO: Ke a go leboga Modulasetilo.

Ke leloko la Business Advisory Committee.

Pele ga Palamente e tsena, re ne ra dumalana gore mo dibekeng tse pedi, re tlaa fetsa melao e. Ra dumalana gore malatsi mangwe re tlaa tsena mo mosong, ra oketsa nako ya maitseboa go tswa kwa go six go ya go felela ka seven.
Ra boa ra dumalana gore mo dibekeng tse pedi tse, fa re ka bona e kete ga go ye go kgonagala gore re fetse, re tlaa boa re kopana gape, re bona gore re ka oketsa nako fa kae gore re fetse Bills mo nakong e e beilweng.

Re bo re dumalana gore go tsenya Palamente go fitlhelela bosigo, ga se selo se se eletsegang, mme malatsi a setse a le mabedi.

Ga se lantlha re sa fetse se se mo Order Paper, se bo se tsena mo letsatsing le le latelang.
Tumalano ya Business Advisory Committee, e ne ya tlisiwa kwa General Assembly, mme General Assembly ya bo e dumalana le tshwetso ya Business Advisory Committee ka nako e e tlaa tsewang.

Ga re ka ke ra nna fa Mr Chairperson, o bo o letlelela Leader of the House yo o leng leloko la Business Advisory Committee, yo o itseng ditshwetso tse di tserweng gore a bo a itlhokomolosa ditshwetso tse di tserweng.
A bo a tla a kopa gone fa a le nosi a sa feta ka ba a dumalaneng le bone gore o fetola dinako gore jaanong go tle go nniwa fa go fitlhelela nako ya nine bosigo …(Interruptions)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR SALESHANDO: Mr Chairperson, fa e le gore re tsaya ditshwetso re a dumalana, rotlhe re a itse gore re tshwanetse re fetise Bills tse pele ga Friday a wela, e bile re dumalane gore re tlaa boa gape re kopana fa e kare ka fa tebong ya rona ra bona go lebega di sa ye go wela.
Jaanong ga ke dumalane le gore fa batho ba dirile ditumelano kwa Business Advisory Committee, e bile di amogetswe ke General Assembly, e bo e re gotwe nnyaa, VP o na le mogopolo mongwe, a bo a batla go fetola ditumalano tsotlhe a le nosi.

Deputy Speaker, do not allow the VP to take control of your House.

Mo reye fela o re a boele kwa tumalano e e dirilweng teng, le kwa gotweng e tlaa fetolwa teng.
Le go tlhopha, it is clear, we have not voted because ga go ise gotwe ba ba sa dumalaneng should say ‘no’ …(Interruptions)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ee, a re tlhopheng.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Call him to order.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Bagaetsho order please, ke tlaa kgalema batho botlhe, didimalang.

45 Hansard No 204BUSINESS MOTIONWednesday 2nd February, 2022 MR SALESHANDO: It is already after 7 p.m. the right thing to do is to adjourn.
Kamoso phakela fa e le gore go na le bothata, re tlaa bidiwa re le ba Business Advisory Committee go gakolola gore jaanong tsela pedi go tsewa efe, e seng jaaka VP a batla go dira.

Ke a leboga.

MR KABLAY: Procedure.

Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Kana tota ga ke itse gore gatwe go rileng.

Mr Speaker, kana se Leader of the House a se buang ke se se tlwaelesegileng.

Re le Business Advisory Committee re dumalane gore in two weeks re tshwanetse gore re bo re setse re feditse ka Bills tse.
As practice, fa e le gore nako e a re tshwara, the Leader of the House moves a Motion oo jaaka a ne a o move gore re oketse nako gore re fetse se re se dumalaneng kwa Business Advisory Committee gore in these two weeks, these 16 or 17 Bills re tshwanelwa ke gore re bo re di feditse.

Jaanong ga ke itse gore fa LOO a re re ne re re re ya go kopana, ga re ise re ko re re re ya go kopana.
Re ne re re fa re simolola budget, ke gone re tlaa bong re kopana re ya go bua ka nako jaanong ya gore re ya go allocate jang nako ya budget.

Jaanong se Leader of the House a se buileng ke yone practice ya gore fa re sa fetsa business of Parliament, nako e a okediwa.

Thank you.

MR TSOGWANE: Procedure.

Nnyaa bagaetsho, a re tlogeleng go iphitlha ka monwana.

We are dealing with a very serious matter here e e leng gore re dule mo teng re sa itse gore re tlaa tswa ka phatlha e e ntseng jang.
We have agreed, the Business Advisory Committee is not greater than the problem e e leng gore re lebagane le yone ya bo grey listing.

So LOO o a itse fela gore if we do not complete a day’s programme by the same action, it means that you are not going to complete that programme ya gago ka letsatsi la bofelo o tshwanetse gore o fetse.

This programme fa go ne go dirwa Order Paper jaana, go tewa gore by Friday re bo re feditse.
Fa motho a sa kgone go lemoga, a sa kgone go bona gore common sense will dictate that if you do not complete today’s Order Paper, we will never complete.

Ga re batle gore letsatsi la bofelo e bo jaanong re lala bosigo jotlhe ka Friday, kamoso go tsoga go le weekend.

It is better to be careful, smart and to finish every day’s Order Paper.

I am simply talking about today’s Order Paper, which we have not even passed a single Bill.
We are halfway the Bill e e mo Order Paper ya ntlha, and common sense will dictate that we are not going to finish this.

Ga ke itse gore batho ba leba jang… MR CHAIRPERSON: You have made your point.

MR TSOGWANE: No, I have not made my point.

Ke araba Leader of the Opposition (LOO), ka fa a lebang dilo ka teng.

Gongwe ga re lebe dilo ka go tshwana, fa e le gore e tlaa re o tshwanetse gore o tseye mosepele wa… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)....

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!


Honourable Member for Selebi Phikwe West!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)....

MR CHAIRPERSON: May we have order please!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)....

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Leader of the Opposition, ga ke a go laletsa.

Honourable Leader of the House, please ga ke a go fa chance!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)....

MR CHAIRPERSON: Please, Honourable Keorapetse!

Honourable Ramogapi!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)....


HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga o tshwanela go laolwa ke Vice President, Mr Speaker.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Member for Bobonong.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)....

MR CHAIRPERSON: Bagaetsho, let us have order please.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke tsholeditse.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are bringing disorder to the House rraetsho.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honorable Lucas, please.

Didimala Rre Mmolotsi, a ko o iketle, ga o ka ke wa tsena Speaker mo ganong.
Bagaetsho, ga gona ope Mopalamente mo Ntlong e yo o fetang Standing Order 27 (a), (b), (c), (d), e e neelang Moeteledipele wa Ntlo e thata.

Fela jaaka Honourable Kablay a bua, e e mo fang thata ya go oketsa nako ya gore re digele tiro, ga a yo.

Re tshwanetse re digele proposal e e neng e dirilwe ke Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Bobonong, and on the list there is Honourable Minister, ke ene a ka re fang tsela ya gore proposal e o a e dumela kana o a gana.
46 Hansard No 204BUSINESS MOTIONWednesday 2nd February, 2022 HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Chairperson, le extension ga go a tlhophiwa.

O sale fela o rile, “as many as are of that opinion,” o bo o ema foo.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Re tlhophile.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)...

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!


Bagaetsho, the Motion as proposed by His Honour the Vice President, I put a question, ke bo ke re, those that are of the opinion say “Aye” ba bo ba re “Aye,” fa ke tshwanetse ke digele ke re, those that are of the negative say “No,” Honourable Leader of the Opposition ke fa a gaketse ka Motion wa gagwe, so re eme gone foo.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: So there is no vote.

MR CHAIRPERSON: There is a vote.


fa e le gore le a gakologelwa, fa Motlotlegi Rraetsho Moeteledipele wa Ntlo a sena go nna a sutisa Motion, I put a question, ba ba reng “aye” ba re “aye” fa ba ba reng “no” HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Ema pele.

Fa ba ba reng “no” ba tshwanetse ba re “no,” the Leader of the Opposition (LOO) ke fa a gaketse gore ke mo reetse.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O se ka wa re a šhakgetse.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ga ke ise ke re a šhakgetse.


A gaketse, he was continuous in English on his point of interjection.

This is what I am saying.

Jaanong ke sone se ke le gakololang fela gore le tsiboge gore re fa kae.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)....

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Ke kopa gore le didimale tlhe bagaetsho, please.

Jaanong there are two Standing Orders that can save us from this fracas; Standing Order 2.1, Standing Order 102.3, they all give me the authority as the Speaker.
Let me read you to yourselves Standing Order... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Chairperson.

Procedure Mr HONOURABLE MEMBER: Standing Order 2.1 o a e golega.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Bagaetsho, ke kopa le mphe nako, please.

…Silence… MR CHAIRPERSON: Ema pele LOO, it is one of them.

Standing Order 102.3, e lebelele Honourable LOO... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)....

MR CHAIRPERSON: May we have order please!


MR SALESHANDO: Ga gona Standing Order se se go fang dithata tsa go tsenya Palamente ka 7:30, e tšhaisitse ka 7.

…Silence… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, where were we?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Fa goreng ga go a tlhophiwa, there was no vote.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nako e tšhaile, there was no vote.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Mmang ke bagaetsho... le gakolole HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Ema pele Honourable Ramogapi.
Mmang ke le gakolole bagaetsho, honestly, MR CHAIRPERSON: Ema pele LOO, re a ...(Inaudible)… nna le wena.

Ka re lebelela Standing Order 102.3.

MR SALESHANDO: Ke se tshwere.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Kana go tshwana le fa Palamente e sa tsena fa re leng teng fa.

MR CHAIRPERSON: “The Speaker may however increase in his or her discretion the time on any item within the constraints of stipulated Standing Orders without a formal Motion being moved.” That is Standing Order 102.3.
MR SALESHANDO: Ee, o lebelele fa gotweng “within the constraints of stipulated Standing Orders”.

Standing Orders tsa re gompieno tse di sutisitsweng, ke 47 Hansard No 204BUSINESS MOTIONWednesday 2nd February, 2022 gore re tšhaisa ka 7, 7 o tšhaile.

Ga o ka ke wena Mr Chairperson, wa dirisa 102.3 gore o bo o re kamoso Palamente e sena go tšhaisa ka 7, o bo o boa o e bitsa bosigo.

Kana se o lekang go se dira ke go bitsa Palamente bosigo, e tšhaisitse ka 7.
Ga o na dithata tseo gotlhelele mo Standing Orders.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Bagaetsho ga ke a utlwa Rakgare, ga ke a utlwa Minister Rakgare.

Ema pele Honourable Member for Ngami.

Honourable Rakgare.

MR RAKGARE: Ee rra.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ga ke a go utlwa.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is attacking us.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke sone se a neng a se batla LOO.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Fa e le sengwe re ye at the Chambers jaaka maloba.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Go ne go bua mongwe, ga gona yo o buang a sa ...(Inaudible)… gore re utlwane bagaetsho.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Molao o o pasiwang Palamente e sa tsena ga se one.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: But fa e le gore ke procedure e e buang ka opposition a sa bue gore procedure ya Ntlo ke eng, we are not... MR CHAIRPERSON: I do not want him to attack anybody.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: A re re mo reetse ene a le kwa lelwapeng, fa rona re le mo diofising.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Emang pele tlhe a bue bagaetsho.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: O bua eng Palamente e dule?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Se dire diphoso.

MR CHAIRPERSON: May we have order please!

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

A re reetsanyeng bagaetsho... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Molao o o ka fetang gompieno, o tlaabo o se ka fa molaong.
MR CHAIRPERSON: A re reetsaneng bagaetsho, tsamaiso kana e ne e le gore jaaka re bua, re kgarametse tiro ya gompieno gore e fele, re e fokotse.

As the question stands ka fa ke bonang le gakaletse gore re emise gone fa, ga ke na chance, ke gore ke kope moeteledipele wa Ntlo, despite our attempts go leka to push productivity, ke tlaa kopa His Honour the Vice President... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister Rakgare, a re mo reetseng.
MINISTER OF YOUTH EMPOWERMENT, SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKGARE): Point of procedure.

Thank you very much Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, it is very clear gore the opposition ga ba na maikaelelo... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Bagaetsho, let us have order please.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr Chairperson.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Ema pele Honourable Kablay.

Standing Order se... HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!
Order bagaetsho!

Ga gona ope yo ke tlaa tlholang ke mo letlelela go bua ka lebaka la gore go nnile le kgopakgopetso e ntsi e bile sa bobedi, ga gona sepe Standing Order se re tlaa tlholang re se bala.

So go raya gore re phatlalale jaaka le batla.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Thank you.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: You can adjourn without the Leader of the House Mr Chairperson.
HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... 48 Hansard No 204BUSINESS MOTIONWednesday 2nd February, 2022 MR CHAIRPERSON: Let us go home... HONOURABLE MEMBER: You have called me to move adjournment... HONOURABLE MEMBER: You do not have to, the Chairperson can just say we are adjourned.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Chairperson, can you call the House to order.

MR TSOGWANE: Wena ga o bue sepe kana wena.

Wena ga go na se o se dirang.


Mr Speaker, can you call the House to order.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: The House is adjourned.

Gatwe o ye kwa lelwapeng, kana o setse o le kwa lelwapeng.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Tsamaya o ye go kopa metsinyana re phatlaleditswe.

Batla metsinyana.
The Assembly adjourned at 19:35 p.m. until Thursday 3rd February, 2022 at 11:00 a.m. 49 Hansard No 204BUSINESS MOTIONWednesday 2nd February, 2022 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B.
B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae 50 Hansard No 204