Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698833527086.pdf (Trinidad and Tobago)
FIRST SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT (2020/2021) REPORT OF THE JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO CONSIDER AND REPORT ON THE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 TOGETHER WITH THE MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS PARL: HOR PAPER NO: SENATE PAPER NO: List of Abbreviations A list of abbreviations used in this Report is as follows: ● EBC – The Elections and Boundaries Commission ● FRC – The Fiscal Review Commission ● IMO – The International Maritime Organisation ● TEC - The Tobago Executive Council ● THA – The Tobago House of Assembly ● TIG – The Tobago Island Government ● TTG – The Government of Trinidad and Tobago ● UNCLOS – The United Nations Convention for the Law of the Sea Contents Mandate Membership of the Committee Chairmanship Secretariat and Technical Support Meetings Procedure adopted by the Committee The work of the previous Committee Clause by Clause review Publication of Draft Proposals and Call for Public Comments Written Submissions Public Consultations Public Survey Historical Background – The Union of the Islands of Trinidad and Tobago Background The Bill Referred to the Committee The Policy Issues Fundamental Principles Definition of Tobago The Division of Powers The Tobago Legislature The Tobago Island Government (TIG) The Civil Service Arrangements for Tobago Intergovernmental fiscal relations The Fiscal Review Committee Intergovernmental Dispute Resolution Report - The Recommended Legislative Proposals Recommendation The Appendix List of Appendices Detailed summary of the Committee’s work in the 11th Parliament - I Detailed Summary of the Committee’s Work in the 12th Parliament - II The Revised Constitution Amendment (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 - III The proposed Tobago Island Bill, 2021 - IV Legal Opinion of Mr. Delano Bart, QC - V Opinion of Professor Gerald Thompson – VI Opinion of Justice Anthony A.
Lucky - VII List of Unicameral Legislatures - VIII Results of Online Survey - IX Minority Report - X Minutes of Meetings - XI 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 List of Stakeholders and Members of the Public who submitted Comments on the Bill and Proposals 24 - XII Stakeholder and Public Comments - XIII Verbatim Notes of Public Consultations - XIV List of Amendments - XV 24 24 24 3 Mandate The mandate of your Committee was to consider and report on a Bill entitled “The Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self Government) Bill, 2020” 2.
The Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self Government) Bill, 2020, was introduced and read a First time in the House of Representatives on October 14, 2020.

Pursuant to resolutions of the House of Representatives and Senate on November 09, 2020 and November 17, 2020 respectively, your Committee was appointed to consider and report on the Bill.

3.
3.

Having regard to the fact that the Bill was referred to your Committee in accordance with SO 64(1)(C) and 62(1)(C) of the House of Representatives and Senate respectively, your Committee was empowered to examine the general merits and principles contained in the Bill along with its details.

Your Committee was mandated to report by December 31, 20201 Membership of the Committee 4.
The following persons were appointed to serve on your Committee: ▪ Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis MP ▪ Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP ▪ Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP ▪ Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP ▪ Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP ▪ Mr. Foster Cummings, MP ▪ Mr. Clarence Rambharat ▪ Ms. Jearlean John ▪ Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy ▪ Mr. Nigel De Freitas ▪ Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal ▪ Dr. Varma Deyalsingh 1 This deadline was extended to May 31, 2021, by the House of Representatives on January 27, 2021.

4 Chairmanship 5.
4 Chairmanship 5.

At its First Meeting held on Wednesday November 18, 2020, your Committee elected Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP to be its Chair, in accordance with House of Representatives Standing Order 97(3) and Senate Standing Order 87(3).

Secretariat and Technical Support 6.
The following persons provided Secretariat support to your Committee: Staff of the Office of the Parliament of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago ▪ Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel, Clerk of the House Secretary ▪ Ms. Keiba Jacob, Procedural Clerk ▪ Ms. Sharla Elcock, Legal Officer I Assistant Secretary Assistant Secretary ▪ Mrs. Angelique Massiah, Parliamentary Legal Officer Legal Officer ▪ Mr. Justin Jarrette, Graduate Research Assistant Researcher ▪ Ms. Ria Rampersad, Graduate Research Assistant Researcher ▪ Dr. Marcia Headley, Senior Researcher/Writer Senior Researcher ▪ Ms. Rebecca Rafeek, Procedural Officer Researcher Staff of the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC) ▪ Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel ▪ Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag) ▪ Mr. Jovan Hunte ▪ Ms. Janelle Smith Policy Research Officer Legal Officer I Staff of the Law Reform Commission (LRC) ▪ Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer Meetings 7.
Your Committee held twenty-two (22) meetings and two (2) days of public consultations.

All meetings and consultations were held virtually.

A Summary of your 5 Committee’s Work is in the Appendix2.

The Minutes of Meetings as well as the Summary of the Public Consultations can also be found in the Appendix3.

Procedure adopted by the Committee The work of the previous Committee 8.
The work, research and records on this subject matter of the previous Committee of the 11th Parliament, were inherited by your Committee.

A summary of the work of that previous Committee is in the Appendix4.

Clause by Clause review 9.

In fulfilling our mandate, your Committee considered the general merits and principles of the Bill by means of a clause-by-clause examination.
During this comprehensive exercise, your Committee studied the comments of stakeholders from Tobago and Trinidad as exhibited in the records inherited from the previous Committee as well as the opinions of Constitutional Law experts and subject matter professionals.

10.
10.

On April 8, 2021, your Committee completed its clause-by-clause review of the Bill and, with the aid of Parliamentary Counsel, prepared draft legislative proposals with the aim of renewing the call for oral and written comments particularly from stakeholders resident in Tobago.

Publication of Draft Proposals and Call for Public Comments 11.

On April 17, 2021, your Committee published its draft legislative proposals electronically and manually, and issued a Call for public comments.

12.
12.

Electronic copies of the drafts were posted on the Parliament’s Website, Facebook page and other Media.

Video productions explaining the details of the proposals and inviting comments were prepared by the Parliament’s Communications Department and broadcast on television channels in Tobago and Trinidad.
Thousands of physical copies of the draft proposals were printed and distributed throughout Tobago to offices of Assemblymen and Members of Parliament, groceries, gas stations, fast food restaurants, the airport and seaport.

Copies were distributed in Trinidad to Constituency Offices, Regional Corporations and air and sea ports.

Your Committee’s Call for comments was published in the daily newspapers and broadcast on radio and television.
Members of your Committee appeared on television and radio talk-show programmes to encourage citizens to obtain 2 See the Detailed Summary of the Committee’s Work in the 12th Parliament at Appendix II.

3 See the Minutes of Meetings at Appendix XI.

4 See the Detailed Summary of the Committee’s Work in the 11th Parliament at Appendix I.

6 copies of the drafts and submit their written comments on the proposals.

Citizens were also invited to participate in the public consultation to follow.
Written Submissions 13.

Your Committee’s call for comments therefore targeted the whole of Trinidad and Tobago.

In addition, focused calls were directed to numerous persons and entities who had commented on the Bill in the previous Parliament, that is to say, the 11th Parliament.

These persons and entities were invited to refresh their comments and were supplied with copies of the Bill or the link to download a personal copy.
Respondents who expressed an interest in making written submissions were contacted and urged to do so.

These approaches resulted in far-reaching and useful written submissions from many persons and entities in Tobago and in Trinidad.

Public Consultations 14.

On Friday April 30, 2021 and Saturday May 1, 2021, your Committee held public consultations and received oral submissions from 31 citizens, the majority of whom are resident in Tobago.
Those who participated included persons who hold leadership positions in political groupings in Tobago as well as other individuals and organisations.

The verbatim record of these consultations is in the Appendix5.

Public Survey 15.

Your Committee also invited public feedback on its proposals via an online survey over the period April 17 to May 4, 2021.

The intent of the survey was to elicit citizens’ feedback on the core provisions of the draft Bills.
195 citizens participated (66% from Tobago and 34% from Trinidad).

77% of respondents favoured internal self-government for Tobago.

The survey comprised twenty-two (22) questions and was designed to raise awareness about the proposals amongst interested persons who may have preferred the option of remaining anonymous.

The detailed results of the survey are in the Appendix6.

5 See Verbatim Notes of Public Consultations at Appendix XIV.

6 See Results of Online Survey at Appendix IX.


7 Historical Background – The Union of the Islands of Trinidad and Tobago 16.

The union of the islands of Trinidad and Tobago took place over a decade culminating with an Order in Council in 1898 that came into effect on January 1, 1899.

Before then, Tobago had been party to successive short-lived unions by colonial authorities going as far back as 1763.
Thus, the union came to pass as a result of socio-economic issues and political considerations since, for several decades, the island of Tobago, like other West Indian colonies, had been experiencing mixed economic and political fortunes either on its own or as part of groupings of island territories.

17.

There were grave deficiencies in the administration of the island of Tobago by the colonial authorities of the day.
These shortcomings were compounded by changes in the economic outlook for Tobago’s sugar industry, which was then the backbone of the island’s prosperous plantation economy.

The decline of the sugar trade ushered in a period of economic decline for Tobago.

While its economic activity and output were slowing down, Tobago’s fortunes were further worsened when it was plunged into budgetary crisis.

There were acute revenue shortages as less and less taxes could be collected.
This led to indebtedness and cuts in expenditure on infrastructure and public services.

Tobago’s economic predicament strengthened the case for the union of the two islands.

Trinidad and Tobago were therefore united for reasons of economic and administrative efficiency in addition to the proximity of the two islands.

18.

Unlike the previous unsuccessful union-making experiments involving Tobago, the joining together of Tobago and Trinidad did not collapse and has stood the test of time.

19.
19.

The union was, however, not without its critics in both islands.

In Trinidad, there was a wariness of being overburdened by Tobago’s economic woes.

In Tobago, there was an insistence on not being overshadowed and placed at a disadvantage by a much larger and significantly more populated partner.

Additionally, there was discontent that Tobago’s government was abolished and that the island was made a ward or administrative district, of the united colony of Trinidad and Tobago.
The island totally lost its separate political and administrative identity.

20.

Many in Tobago felt that their views and needs were largely overlooked by the government in Trinidad.

Actually, the average Tobagonian felt that there was little opportunity for Tobago to influence national decision-making.

21.

A generation after the launch of the union, the following was noted during a study7 in 1933 on islands in the Eastern Caribbean including both Trinidad and Tobago: ‘Deep-seated differences exist […].
No two islands are alike, whether in geographical configuration, staple products, climate, traditions, historical associations, or mental 7 Secretary of State for the Colonies, Memorandum: West Indies – Report of the Closer Union Commission, p. 81.

8 outlook of the inhabitants.

Each cherishes its own individuality, the product of its history and traditions.

[…] To discover a common denominator is a baffling problem’.

22.
22.

This feeling of marginalisation by Tobagonians has lingered throughout the 20th century and continues into the 21st.

23.

Your Committee’s view is that the common denominator between Trinidad and Tobago is not a baffling problem at all.

The union is the interwoven reality of all of the people, going far beyond mere institutional considerations.

The islands are also united by shared achievements and affinities, cross cultural pollination amongst the diverse cultural communities and cultures.
Nationals hailing from both islands have made outstanding contributions globally on behalf of Trinidad and Tobago in countless fields including sport, academia, international relations, finance, law, entertainment and culture.

However, your Committee recognizes that the perception of marginalization by Tobago is real, despite the reality that Tobagonians have served as President, Prime Ministers, Chief Justices, Commissioners of Police, Commissioners of Prisons, Union Leaders, Heads of Religions and more.
24.

Your Committee also appreciates that Trinidad and Tobago’s archipelagic character with the natural challenge of the presence of the sea, creates obvious problems of governance.
We therefore acknowledge the laudable attempts made in the past to address some of these issues including the passage of the Tobago House of Assembly Act, 1980 and its successor, the Tobago House of Assembly Act of 1996, the latter of which provides for the membership, powers and functions of the Tobago House of Assembly and its Executive Council established under the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago.

25.
25.

The current legislative proposal will entrench into the Constitution, Tobago’s right to self-government with limited but necessary exceptions and confirm Tobago’s unique identity.

26.

The proposals contained in your Committee’s recommendations to this House are just the foundation.

Within the margins of the Constitution, it is for Tobago to build and mould the institutions and systems that will be Tobago’s to govern.

Trinidad and Tobago will only be stronger because of it.

27.
27.

Your Committee is confident in the unitary state and optimistic about its future.

Background 28.

As early as 2007, the Tobago House of Assembly commenced discussions to advance the quest for internal self-government for Tobago.

Over the period 2014 to 2016, there were renewed and widespread consultations, led by a forum comprising the leaders of political parties in Tobago.
Those consultations concluded in 2016 with a debate in the Tobago House of Assembly on a draft Bill to amend the Constitution of Trinidad and 9 Tobago to accord self-government to Tobago within the framework of our unitary State.

That draft Bill was eventually transmitted to the Cabinet of Trinidad and Tobago.

29.

Thus was the origin of the Bill that made its way to the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago.
In 2018, the government laid the Constitution (Amendment) Tobago Self Government Bill in the House of Representatives.

30.

This Bill was sent to a Joint Select Committee in March of 2018.
Over the period 2018 and 2019, that Committee called for comments and submissions and held a series of public hearings with stakeholders8 and experts from Tobago and Trinidad, as well as legal and other experts with knowledge and experience in relevant constitutional matters from a number of other jurisdictions and from the United Nations Development Programme.

31.

The life of that Committee ended in 2020.

32.


Self-government for Tobago continues to be a protracted endeavour and its prominence on the legislative agenda today is a response to two sentiments on the part of many: one, the feeling that the current governmental system is Trinidad-dominated and disadvantageous to Tobago and two, that self-government would improve the administration of all aspects of governance in Tobago.

The Bill Referred to the Committee 33.


The purpose of the Bill referred to your Committee is to be found in its long title which states “An Act to amend the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago to accord self-government to Tobago, to repeal the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03 and for related matters”.
Notably, the Bill proposes the following, inter alia: a) The entrenchment within the Constitution of institutions of government for the island of Tobago and details related to their operations and procedures; b) The inclusion within the constitution of a definition for Tobago by reference to maritime boundaries; c) A Tobago Legislature, consisting of the President, an elected House of Assembly and an elected People’s House, with exclusive powers to make laws for the peace, order and good government of the island of Tobago, except for a limited number of matters listed in a schedule over which the national Legislature could continue to pass laws affecting Tobago; 8 See List of Stakeholders and Public who submitted comments on the Bill and Proposals at Appendix XII.
10 d) A Tobago Executive Council (TEC), comprising a Chief Secretary and other Secretaries with exclusive responsibility for the general direction and control of a government for the Island of Tobago, except for a limited number of matters listed in the said schedule which would remain under the purview of the Trinidad and Tobago Government (TTG); e) A minority leader to be appointed by the President as the person commanding the support of the largest number of Assemblymen who do not support the Chief Secretary; f) A Tobago Island Civil Service and a Tobago Service Commission; g) The duty of the President to act in accordance with the advice of the TEC with respect to all matters related to Tobago other than those matters in the said schedule.
h) The annual appropriation of not less than 8% of the national budget to Tobago; i) A Fiscal Review Commission with responsibility for determining and recommending to Parliament the sums required to be appropriated to Tobago in each financial year, for establishing a mechanism for revenue sharing between the Islands of Tobago and Trinidad and for ensuring that all revenues collected in Trinidad that are attributable to Tobago shall be held for the account of Tobago, among others duties; and j) Transitional provisions.
The Policy Issues 34.
Your Committee divided the Bill into nine (9) key policy issues - a) Fundamental principles - Purpose and nature of Tobago’s Self-Government b) The proposed definition of Tobago c) The Division of powers d) Autonomy structure: The Tobago legislature e) Autonomy structure: The Tobago Island Government (TIG) f) The Civil Service arrangements for Tobago g) Intergovernmental fiscal relations h) The Fiscal Review Commission (FRC) 11 i) Intergovernmental dispute resolution Fundamental Principles 35.
The Bill referred to your Committee asserts in Clauses 4 and 5 that self-government for Tobago within the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago will be based on two principles: a) the right of the people of Tobago to determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development; and b) equality of status between the Island of Trinidad and the Island of Tobago within the sovereign democratic State of Trinidad and Tobago.

36.
36.

Therefore, as part of the constitutional design of the State of Trinidad and Tobago, it is proposed that due to its geographical and cultural distinction, the Island of Tobago, should possess exclusive internal governmental responsibilities to the maximum degree possible within the boundaries of the Constitution of the unitary State.

Your Committee endorses this proposal 37.


In principle, the legislation seeks to establish the Island of Tobago as a self-governing region with executive and law making powers exclusive to Tobago.

Fundamentally, Tobago will remain represented in the national Parliament and be able to participate in law- making for the entire country.

38.

These are deep constitutional issues which required the consideration of several concepts and models of democracy.

39.
39.

Regarding the principle of equality of status, your Committee was advised that this is a principle of international law, used in the context of sovereign States9.

Constitutional experts were concerned that instead of the usual State to State application, Clause 5 of the Bill proposed to insert this phrase into the Constitution with reference to the units within our single unitary sovereign State.
Your Committee took into account the many representations made on this point and the fact that stakeholders both in Tobago and Trinidad questioned the rationale for the statement.

40.

Your Committee agrees that in a unitary State, there is no need for words referring to the equality of status between the islands.
Further, the island of Trinidad and the island of Tobago are not units in a Federation of States where each unit can be properly distinguished and such a phrase, referring to equality of status between each unit in such a Federation might, arguably, be justifiable.

An appropriate amendment is therefore proposed by your Committee.

9 See the Opinion of Mr. Delano Bart, QC (26/05/21) at Appendix V. 12 41.
Your Committee is satisfied that the Constitution should instead include, as a basic principle, the right of the people of Trinidad and the people of Tobago to equality of status and to access a fair share of the resources and access to opportunities available to all the people of the sovereign democratic State of Trinidad and Tobago.

Indeed, all citizens whether they are from Tobago or Trinidad must have equality of status in both Trinidad and in Tobago.

42.
42.

Your Committee is of the firm view that the Trinidad and Tobago Order in Council, 1898 should be amended in clause 2 so that the words “the Island of Tobago shall be a Ward of the Colony of Trinidad and Tobago” be repealed.

Definition of Tobago 43.


Clause 6 of the Bill referred to your Committee proposes to add a delineation or definition of the island of Tobago by reference to the maritime waters surrounding the island, in the Interpretation Clause of the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

44.

Several representations were made to your Committee on this issue.
On the one hand, Tobago stakeholders contended that it is possible to define Tobago within the Constitution not by mere reference to land mass but by reference to “Tobago waters”.

On the other hand, Constitutional experts, as well as Specialists and Jurists in the Law of the Sea, disagreed and cautioned against such an approach10.

45.

Your Committee was advised that as Trinidad and Tobago is an archipelagic State, it is therefore defined as one unified legal entity or jurisdiction in all relevant laws.
The nationhood of Trinidad and Tobago is built on the concept of unity between the islands and the inter-connecting waters.

Those seas are regarded as a unifying, not as a separating element.

It is the basis on which Trinidad and Tobago’s archipelagic status rests.

46.
46.

Additionally, Justice Anthony Lucky (Retired Judge, International Tribunal on the Law of the Sea), opined that, if the islands of Trinidad and Tobago are separately defined within the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago by reference to the archipelagic waters belonging to the State, that, effectively, is an act of separation and will likely provoke several issues in current national laws and international conventions, protocols and treaties to which Trinidad and Tobago is a party.
10 See the Opinions of Professor Gerald Thompson, Ambassador Extraordinaire and Plenipotentiary (Ret) (25/1/2018) and Justice Anthony A.

Lucky, Retired Judge, International Tribunal on the Law of the Sea (25/1/2018) (inherited from previous Committee) at Appendices VI and VII respectively.

See also the legal opinion of Mr. Delano Bart, QC at Appendix V. 13 47.
Therefore, the seas around, between, and connecting the islands of the archipelagic State of Trinidad and Tobago (as defined by the archipelagic baselines or boundaries) are under the sovereignty of the State, irrespective of the individual breadth and dimensions of the separate islands of the archipelago.

The archipelagic waters constitute the internal waters of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

There are no waters belonging to the island of Tobago or the island of Trinidad.
All waters are under the jurisdiction of the unitary State.

48.

It is for this reason that your Committee did not support the constitutional definition of Tobago as proposed in the Bill referred to us.

We also did not accept advice that suggested that a Memorandum of Understanding between the TTG and the TIG would satisfy the issues related to governance, enforcement and the use of maritime zones.

Written and oral submissions revealed that this is an issue of deep concern to Tobagonians.
It is your Committee’s recommendation that Tobago’s administrative responsibility for marine waters should extend to a distance of eleven (11) nautical miles from the low water mark, and be confirmed in legislation in harmony with the spirit of the Tobago House of Assembly Act of 1996.

Your Committee’s recommendation in this regard is to be found in the proposed Tobago Island Government Bill.

The Division of Powers 49.


The Bill referred to your Committee proposed a model for the allocation of responsibilities (or powers) in which the reserved powers of the TTG and the national Parliament would be itemised and all other areas or spheres of responsibility would be devolved exclusively to the TIG and the Tobago Legislature.
In this approach, purported to be deeply entrenched in the Constitution, the proposed list of policy areas/bodies equally reserved to the TTG and the national Parliament were as follows: Policy areas Immigration Foreign Affairs Bodies the President the Prime Minister National security (except internal policing) the Auditor General The Judiciary Civil Aviation Meteorology the Ombudsman the Integrity Commission 14 50.
Legislative competencies, the division of responsibilities and intergovernmental relations in a devolved system of government are central to this policy issue.

More critical to your Committee however, is the desire to bring decision-making closer to the people so that those affected can have an increasingly greater say in the policies that affect them.
Research revealed that this policy issue remains a constitutional challenge even in jurisdictions that have long established such systems of devolved government.

51.

Your Committee received several useful representations on this issue.

To aid in decision making, your Committee studied examples of jurisdictions that have enjoyed self- government and reviewed the advice and authorities in the collection of material inherited from its predecessor 11th Parliament Committee.

52.
52.

After an examination of the various models, your committee recommends that the list of exclusive devolved powers (both legislative and executive) that will reside with the Tobago Legislature and the TIG should be clearly defined.

All powers not specifically devolved will remain reserved with the national Parliament and the TTG, at this time.

In the main, the residual reserved powers will include those spheres that are national in nature and require common action.

53.
53.

Your Committee considers that the identification of the exclusive responsibilities of the TIG will facilitate proper budgeting and planning as Tobago transitions to self- government status.

Clarity is also required in order to minimise conflict and judicial uncertainty.
Importantly, your Committee believes that the Trinidad and Tobago model should not be rigid in its application and so our recommendation will allow flexibility in the transfer of additional policy areas to Tobago over time, as may be required.

The model proposed by your Committee will also facilitate smooth transitional arrangements since until Tobago laws are in place, all national laws have effect in Tobago as in Trinidad.
Sixty-eight percent (68%) of responders to our survey agreed with your Committee’s 54. recommendations on the division of powers.

The Tobago Legislature 55.

The Bill referred to your Committee proposed a bicameral structure for the Tobago Legislature.

Representations were made to your Committee that bicameralism allows for more diverse representation and deeper government scrutiny.

Some stakeholders claimed that bicameralism with two elected Houses, is what Tobago wants.
They submitted that the proposed second chamber would be ground-breaking and would pave the way for a different type of leadership, elected at the parish level to participate in Tobago’s democracy.

The proposed second chamber was to be called the People’s House.

However, others differed.

15 56.


With respect to the holding of an election for the proposed Peoples’ House, the Elections and Boundaries Commission advised your Committee that there appeared to be no legal basis for the configuration of the parishes as they appear on the map of Tobago.
Additionally, using the official map of Tobago showing the parishes superimposed, the Commission noted that the distribution of the electorate across these parishes was disproportionate and therefore the use of parishes as the basis for an election would be unsuitable.

57.

Your Committee acknowledges that bicameralism is one method of widening representation.
However, your Committee is satisfied that elected chambers merely mirror each other and party politics dominates electoral processes particularly in smaller regions.

In some jurisdictions, party politics creates gridlock between the Chambers and instability in government.

58.

On the other hand, unicameralism avoids deadlock, improves decision making and is more accountable.
Your Committee made useful note of the fact that in the Caribbean there are many more examples of legislative subnational autonomous entities having unicameral systems than bicameral ones.

A complete list of unicameral Legislatures is in the Appendix11.

59.

Your Committee was mindful of Tobago’s desire for a different type of representation, one that is not party dominated but one that could serve to unify.
In this regard, research enabled your Committee to appreciate the workings of mixed-member unicameral Chambers many of which exist worldwide although with significant variations.

In most cases, the intention was to enhance representation and reduce the stranglehold of party politics.

There are a number of mixed chambers in the Caribbean.

Dominica, for example, has a unicameral House of Assembly with twenty-one (21) elected Members and nine (9) Senators.
Other mixed chambers in the Caribbean include the British Virgin Islands and the Turks and Caicos Islands with single constituency and at-large Members, also St. Kitts and Nevis and St. Vincent and the Grenadines.

Outside of the Caribbean one can find mixed chambers in Mauritius, Tanzania and Zanzibar, to name just a few.

60.
60.

Your Committee believes that the systems and features desired to create a ground- breaking and uniquely Tobago blend of democracy can be achieved with unicameralism through the enactment by the Tobago Legislature of procedures and rules to shape its operations.
For example, the unicameral Scottish Parliament, with similar aspirations to deepen representation, through citizen participation and oversight, has at its key guiding principles the following – a) the Parliament should embody and reflect the sharing of power between the people of Scotland, the Legislators and the Executive; 11 See List of Unicameral Legislatures at Appendix VIII.
16 b) the Executive should be accountable to the Parliament and the Parliament and Executive should be accountable to the people of Scotland; c) the Parliament should be accessible, open, responsive, and develop procedures which make possible a participatory approach to the development, consideration and scrutiny of policy and legislation; d) the Parliament in its operation and its appointments should recognise the need to promote equal opportunities for all.

61.
61.

After a careful consideration of all representations, your Committee recommends the establishment of a twenty-six (26) mixed-member unicameral Legislature, constituting the President and the House of Assembly.
We propose that, in addition to the Presiding Officer, fifteen (15) of the Members of the House of Assembly should be elected while ten (10) should be Councillors appointed by the President; five (5) on the advice of the Chief Secretary; three (3) on the advice of the Minority Leader and two (2) by the President in his/her own discretion.
Those appointed by the President would be chosen from among outstanding Tobago residents from economic, social or community organisations and other major fields of endeavour.

62.

Your Committee received mixed responses from stakeholders and the public to this proposal.

The idea of nominated non-elected as opposed to elected Councillors remain of concern to many who consider that such members owe no duty to serve the people responsibly having not been elected.
We were told that rejected candidates may be brought into the House through this door.

There is concern that nominated members may not be so chosen as to sufficiently represent the various sectors in Tobago who deserve a place in the House of Assembly, like civil society and the youth.

Some questioned if this composition will facilitate meaningful oversight and some expressed the opinion that the proposed Legislature was too large.

63.
63.

On the other hand, your Committee also heard concerns about the challenges of electoral politics in small jurisdictions and, with the aid of Counsel, has proposed a model where nominated non-elected representation can complement elected representation.

Certainly, our own experience has demonstrated that nominated representation can be an apposite pathway for democratic innovation because of its potential to compensate for some of the disadvantages of electoral systems.
Moreover, admittedly, non-elected representatives occasionally enjoy a greater degree of trust as they are perceived to be (more) authentic, and can flexibly and directly act on behalf of citizen interests based on specific expertise, shared experiences and/or common identity.

64.
64.

Your Committee believes that procedures and rules, as determined by the Tobago Legislature together with commitment on the part of its leaders, can shape a culture of government oversight in Tobago in response to the aspirations of the people.

17 65.

Your Committee found it noteworthy that in the survey conducted in which Tobago participated to a greater degree, more than three-quarters (76.08%) of responders were in favour of a new Tobago Legislature as proposed.

66.
66.

As is the case at present, your Committee proposes that the Tobago Legislature will continue for four (4) years from the date of its first sitting.

However, the Bill as recommended aims for greater certainty in the calling of a general election for Tobago, and proposes that the Tobago Legislature shall continue for four (4) years from the date of its first meeting after any primary election, and shall then stand dissolved.
The Bill further recommends that a general election should be held on the Second Monday after the date of the fourth anniversary of the last primary election.

Legislative Powers 67.

In your Committee’s recommendations, the areas over which the Tobago Legislature will have exclusive law-making jurisdiction for Tobago are listed in Schedule 2 of the proposed Tobago Island Government Bill.
This arrangement is necessary as it promotes the legal certainty required by both the national Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago Legislature, when making laws.

The Committee is of the view that within the framework of the sovereign unitary State of Trinidad and Tobago, the power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws must be subject to section 53 of the Constitution.

68.
68.

Your Committee therefore recommends that powers and responsibilities of both Legislatures should interlock to the extent necessary, with the Tobago’s Legislature having exclusive law making powers relevant to Tobago for a number of specific policy areas while the national legislature retains residual law making powers over Trinidad and Tobago, and to the extent that inconsistencies arise, national laws will have precedent to the extent of the inconsistency.
Your Committee received representations that such a fragmented legal regime in a unitary State may give rise to many conflicts.

However, based on advice received and models examined, your Committee is satisfied that its recommendations in this regard are workable.

69.
69.

Although in strictly legal terms the amendments proposed to the Constitution do not diminish the sovereignty of the Constitution nor the supremacy of the national Parliament, however, they do grant significant decision-making autonomy to the proposed Tobago Legislature.

Moreover, the term “exclusive” clearly confirms the underlying principle that the national Parliament should not arbitrarily legislate in a manner that will impact Tobago within a devolved sphere.

70.
70.

Your committee strongly recommends that both the national Parliament and the Tobago Legislature should function as peers and engage in regular exchanges so as to coordinate and “co-decide”, when appropriate, legislation that will have impact on Tobago.

18 The Tobago Island Government (TIG) 71.

As indicated earlier, your Committee also recommends a list of exclusive executive powers that will reside with the TIG.

All residual powers would remain with the Trinidad and Tobago Government TTG.
This list of exclusive TIG powers is set out in Schedule 1 of the proposed Tobago Island Government Bill and comprises all of the responsibility areas that are currently devolved onto the Tobago Executive Council by way of the THA Act, 1996, and then more.

72.

Understandably, a number of national policy areas remain with the TTG given your Committee’s desire to maintain and secure for citizens, equal outcomes in key areas that remain national.

73.
73.

The Bill proposes that the President should act in accordance with the advice of the TEC or a Secretary acting under the general authority of the TEC, with respect to matters in the exclusive jurisdiction of the Tobago Government.

74.

Given its mandate, your Committee appreciated that its duty was to propose an optimal level of self-government for Tobago while ensuring that the central government can govern effectively, minimize conflict and remain responsive to the needs of all citizens.
The Civil Service Arrangements for Tobago 75.

Your Committee carefully considered the case presented that there is a need for Tobago to play a greater role in the hiring and other aspects of the management of the human resources of the civil service in Tobago.

The Bill referred to your Committee proposes the establishment of a Tobago Civil Service and a Tobago Service Commission.
The following issues were considered: a) The size of the proposed administration (civil servants, fire officers, health practitioners); b) Will there be mobility between the two Islands?

And if so, how convenient will it be?

c) The existence of a number of Service commissions: the public service commission; the police service commission; the Teaching service commission; d) the existence of a number of Boards like the Public Service Appeal Board, for example.

19 76.
19 76.

After reviewing the observations and comments of the experts, your Committee acknowledged that a separate Tobago Civil Service Commission would mean different norms, standards and terms and that mobility between the Trinidad and Tobago Public Service and the Tobago Civil Service will be problematic.

We are also not convinced that the structure proposed would resolve the challenges of Civil Servants from Tobago.
Moreover, there would also be unnecessary costs and the likelihood that other Commissions and Boards will be replicated in Tobago.

77.

Therefore, your committee is of the view that the preferred option is the retention of the Trinidad and Tobago Public Service and the Public Service Commission within a uniform regulatory framework.
We therefore propose the appointment of two additional Commissioners, resident in Tobago, to be appointed by the President after consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Minority Leader and that matters related to the civil service in Tobago be devolved to a branch of the Public Service Commission based in Tobago.

We do believe, however, that novel regulations will be required to eliminate the backlogs experienced by Tobago when its matters are combined with matters involving the wider Public Service.
Intergovernmental fiscal relations 78.

The Bill referred to your Committee proposes an annual allocation to Tobago of 8% of the national budget.

Your committee considers that this proposal was hinged to an historical argument not aligned to the proposed new TIG functions, powers and resources.
The explanation of the proposal of 8% is to be found in the archives of the previous Committee, where, in 2018, the Forum of political parties explained, that the proposal of 8% comprised 5% based on population and 3% to compensate for lagging development, the latter figure being a proportion due to Tobago from a decision of the Dispute Resolution Commission in 2000 which was never paid; in essence therefore, the proposed 8% seeks to recover that sum.

79.
79.

Your Committee was in receipt of a recommendation from the Ministry of Finance that formulated a minimum Tobago allocation of 6.8% of the national budget based on Tobago’s population size, land mass and geographical challenges, having regard to the intent of the Bill.

Your Committee has accepted this proposal as the minimum allocation, at this stage.

We further recommend that the law should provide a mechanism to allow for increases over and above this percentage.
These recommendations can be found in the proposed Tobago Island Government Bill.

80.

The new TIG revenue regime proposes that the TIG will be entitled to collect or be remitted taxes belonging to Tobago, including - 20 Personal income tax of persons resident on the island; Customs duties and excise taxes collected on the island; Value-added taxes collected on the island.

81.
81.

Additionally, it is envisaged that the TIG can collect the following types of residual taxation: Property taxes; Tourist levies; Licenses - fisheries and the like; Profits from TIG- owned enterprises 82.

The Bill does not envisage any part of the revenue collected in Tobago being transferred to the TTG for national service delivered in Tobago, for e.g.

immigration services, aviation services, judicial services and national security services.

83.
83.

The draft Bill provides that a Tobago Fund be established to consist of monies appropriated by the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago, for the use of the Tobago Government and such other monies that the Tobago Government may lawfully collect, borrow, earn through investments or be granted.

84.

The ability of the TIG to borrow and invest was one of the deep-seated concerns that emerged.
It is your Committee’s recommendation that the TIG must possess the power to borrow, locally as well as internationally.

However, your Committee was advised by the Ministry of Finance that given the general practice of international bodies and lending agencies, there is a focus on Central Government in the event of challenges or defaulting.

Therefore, any such borrowing undertaken by the TIG, should be subject to the approval of the Minister of Finance, which should not be unreasonably withheld.

85.
85.

The proposals confirm the power of the TIG to invest.

However, the TIG will be required to put in place all the necessary policies and regulations as the case may require.

Your Committee recommends, however, that one of the TIG’s investment accounts should be placed under the management of the Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago, in an arrangement as may be approved by the Tobago Legislature.

86.
86.

Your Committee re-emphasises that it will be the responsibility of the Tobago Legislature to outline rules in primary or subsidiary legislation to govern the functioning of the TIG in these matters.

87.

Further, your Committee recommends that the Tobago Legislature should debate and approve its own Tobago Appropriation Act which, together with detailed Estimates, must be laid in the House of Assembly.
We believe that the Members of the Assembly 21 should examine those estimates and seek information from the Executive Council on proposals funds.

Based on your Committee’s recommendations, openness and transparency in budgeting will be part of the budgetary process and is in keeping with the arrangements in legislative bodies the world over.

for expenditure of Tobago’s 88.


Additionally, it is proposed that the rules for the management of all finances of the Tobago Government be debated and approved by the Tobago Legislature.

89.

These proposals are contained in the proposed Bill entitled the Tobago Island Government Bill.

The Fiscal Review Committee 90.

The proposals for the establishment of the FRC have, in the main, been endorsed by your Committee.
This FRC shall have the duty, inter alia, to ensure that all revenues, fees and duties collected in Trinidad that are attributable to Tobago such as from custom duties, import duties stamp duties and other duties shall be held for the account of Tobago and to work towards the establishment of a mechanism for revenue sharing between the TIG and the TTG.

Further, should the TIG require an allocation above 6.8%, the FRC has the duty to 91. make the determination of what additional sums should be provided.
92.

In making its determinations, the FRC is required to take into account the combination of factors that arguably place Tobago at a disadvantage relative to Trinidad.

These include most notably, the separation by water, and all the other issues which affect Tobago’s economic activity and make the realization of the island’s development potential more challenging.
They also include logistical difficulties which may make some of the professional, educational and other opportunities not as easily available to Tobagonians.

in government, 93.
in government, 93.

Using their collective expertise law, management, business administration, finance, accounting or economics, the proposed five-member FRC will serve as an important forum for dialogue between the TIG and the TTG on financial matters, given that it is your Committee’s recommendation that the Chairman and Vice Chairman should be the Minister of Finance and the Secretary of Finance, respectively.
One member of the FRC will be appointed by the TEC whilst the Cabinet will appoint two members thereby ensuring both national and Tobago representation.

Your Committee is confident that the FRC will necessarily be supported by a team of professionals.

22 94.

The FRC will be required to submit an annual report to Parliament before the presentation of the national budget.
This report would then be factored into decisions regarding Tobago’s budgetary allocation over and above the base of 6.8% for the upcoming financial year.

Intergovernmental Dispute Resolution 95.

Intergovernmental relations between different levels and types of government exist not only in federal states but also in unitary states where decentralization is regarded as a key ingredient to national development.

96.
96.

Your Committee is satisfied that where there is an intergovernmental dispute, both the TTG and the TIG should be under a duty to make every reasonable effort to settle the dispute by means of mechanisms and procedures provided for that purpose, and to exhaust such mechanisms and procedures before approaching a Court.

97.

Several stakeholders made representations on this issue which assisted the Committee in arriving at conclusions in this matter.
Your Committee proposes the establishment of a Dispute Resolution Committee to facilitate the intergovernmental resolution of disputes.

The Committee recommends equal representation by the Cabinet and the Executive Council and a Chairman appointed by the President after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary.
The Dispute Resolution Committee will be required to make recommendations to the Prime Minister who should consult with the Chief Secretary before making a decision whether or not the recommendations.

implement to Report - The Recommended Legislative Proposals 98.

Your Committee wishes to report that it has completed its work.

99.
99.

Your Committee also wishes to report that in arriving at its recommendations, we took into account the comments of stakeholders and members of the public primarily from Tobago12.

Your Committee noted that the majority of comments came from Tobago.

It must be stressed that your Committee carefully studied all comments and we are confident that your Committee gained a genuine appreciation of the concerns.

For the most part, there were common and recurrent themes in the representations from Tobago.
However, there were a few comments that were outside the remit of your committee and there were many that sought to introduce proposals beyond the margins of our unitary sovereign State.

12 See Stakeholder and Public Comments at Appendix XIII.

23 100.

Our recommendations reflect those common themes.


Fundamentally, Tobago desires internal government over all matters critical to the operations of the TIG, including the ability of the TIG to deal with funds allocated and/or collected for the exclusive use of Tobago.

Tobago desires to have legislative competence to enact its own laws having effect on the island of Tobago and thereby significantly influencing its development.
Tobago also desires a democratic model of governance that could facilitate citizen access to governance mechanisms and citizens’ ability to monitor and participate in their governance.

The TIG’s model will promote systems that will guarantee openness, transparency and equality in government in keeping with the desires of Tobago.
There is the patent need for a Civil Service that can deliver efficient public services and support the government of the day to develop and implement sound policies responsive to the needs of the people.

Your Committee’s recommendations are all in accord with these aspirations of Tobago.

101.

Given the considerations presented above, your Committee has amended the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020.

The amendments made are reflected in the Appendix13.

102.
102.

The Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 as reported from your Committee is in the Appendix14.

103.

During its review of the Bill, your Committee was advised by Counsel that several provisions contained in the Bill do not belong in a Constitution.

Accordingly, those provisions were transferred into a draft companion Bill entitled The Tobago Island Government Bill which is in the Appendix15.

104.
104.

The Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 requires a special majority of Three Quarters of the members of the House of Representatives and Two Thirds of the members of the Senate.

Recommendation 105.

In accordance with Standing Orders 66 (3) and 64 (3) of the House of Representatives and Senate respectively, your Committee recommends that its report on The Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 be adopted by this House.
13 See List of Amendments at Appendix XV.

14 See the Revised Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 at Appendix III.

15 See the proposed Tobago Island Government Bill 2021 at Appendix IV.

24 Sgd.

Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis MP Chairman Sgd.

Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Sgd.

Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Member Sgd.

Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Sgd.

Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Sgd.

Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Sgd.


Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Sgd.

Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Sgd.


Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Member June 9, 2021 25 The Appendices List of Appendices Detailed Summary of the Committee’s work in the 11th Parliament - I Detailed Summary of the Committee’s Work in the 12th Parliament - II The Revised Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 - III The proposed Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021 - IV Legal Opinion of Mr. Delano Bart, QC - V Opinion of Ambassador Gerald Thompson – VI Opinion of Justice Anthony A.
Lucky - VII List of Unicameral Legislatures - VIII Results of Online Survey - IX Minority Report - X Minutes of Meetings - XI List of Stakeholders and Public who submitted Comments on the Bill and Proposals - XII Stakeholder and Public Comments - XIII Verbatim Notes of Public Consultations - XIV List of Amendments - XV ****** 26 APPENDIX I DETAILED SUMMARY OF THE COMMITTEE’S WORK IN THE 11TH PARLIAMENT Parliament Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Parliamentary Complex Cabildo Building St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain JSC – Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 SUMMARY OF THE COMMITTEE’S WORK IN THE 11th PARLIAMENT APPENDIX I Third Session 1.
At its First Meeting on Friday March 23, 2018, the Committee elected Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP to be its Chair, in accordance with House of Representatives Standing Order 97(3) and Senate Standing Order 87(3).

The Committee also agreed to have personnel from the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel, PS Secretariat, Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs and the Law Reform Commission attend all Committee meetings.
During preliminary discussions the Committee agreed to issue a call for submissions from the public.

Written submissions/comments on the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Act, 2018 were requested via print media, as well as on the Parliament Channel and the Parliament’s social media platforms with an initial deadline of April 30, 2018.

The deadline was extended to May 31, 2018, beyond which, stakeholders and members of the public continued to send submissions.
At its Second Meeting on Thursday April 5, 2018, the Office of the Chief Parliamentary 2.

Counsel made a comprehensive explanation of the Bill in the form of a presentation.

At its Third Meeting on Thursday April 19, 2018, the Committee held discussions on the 3. policy aspects of the Bill with officials from the Tobago House of Assembly.

4.
4.

At its Fourth Meeting on Thursday May 17, 2018, Dr. Rita Pemberton (Retired Head of Department & Senior Lecturer UWI) presented a Historical Perspective on the Union of Trinidad and Tobago.

This assisted the Committee to gain an appreciation of pertinent issues relevant to the history of the Bill.

5.

At its Fifth Meeting on Thursday May 24, 2018, the Committee had a Skype consultation with Mr. Jason Gluck, Policy Specialist, UNDP, and Ms. Christina Murray (UN Department of Political Affairs), UNDP.
The Committee held its Sixth Meeting in Tobago on Sunday June 10, 2018 where the 6. general public was allowed to share their views on the Bill.

7.

Due to the number of submissions received from Tobago stakeholders and members of the public, the submissions were tabulated in a Clause by Clause manner to facilitate proper examination of the submissions.

Page 1 of 6 8.

The Committee agreed to invite Mr. Delano Bart, QC former Attorney General, St. Kitts and Nevis to assist the Committee.
Mr. Bart was invited to an in-camera meeting on Friday July 06, 2018 to hold discussions with the Committee.

Mr. Bart shared his views with the Committee and also gave advice on the Nevis experience.

The Committee received submissions from the following stakeholders: 9.
The House Assembly Tobago of & Elections Boundaries Commission The Environmental Management Authority of Ministry Planning and Development - Office of the Permanent Secretary of Ministry Public Administration and Communications - Legal Services Division Ministry of Finance - Inland Revenue Division The Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago Mr. Vanus James Ms. Carlene Philip Public Service Association Mr. Reginald Phillips Ms.
Dawn Glaisher Personnel Department Arthur Sir Lewis Institute of Social and Economic Studies (SALISES), The University of West the Indies (UWI) Service Commissions Department Mr. Reginald Dumas Mr. Mervyn O’Neil Mr. Rampersad Sieuraj Dr. Petra Bridgemohan Association of Real Estate Agents Rachael Ms. Almondoz Mr. Sean Nedd Port Authority of Trinidad and Tobago of Ministry Finance - Office of the Permanent Secretary The Movement for Transformation Bankers Association of Trinidad and Tobago Joint National Action Committee Rodney Mr. Piggott Stephen Mr. Kangal Bindley Mr. Benjamin Mr. Weatherhead; Clyde 10.
The Committee presented a Report to the House of Representatives and to the Senate on September 17, 2018 and September 18, 2018 respectively.

The Report made the following Recommendations: i. ii.

the Parliament take note of the progress made by the Committee thus far, the proceedings of the Joint Select Committee established to consider and report on the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2018 be saved and resumed in the next session; Page 2 of 6 iii.

iv.
iv.

in the Fourth Session of the Eleventh Parliament that a similar Committee be appointed to complete the work begun by this Committee; and this new Committee be empowered to adopt as part of its records the work done to date.

11.

At the sittings of the House of Representatives and of the Senate held on September 17, 2018 and October 19, 2018 respectively, the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self Government) Bill, 2018 was carried over to the Fourth Session of the 11th Parliament.
A similar Committee was established in the Fourth Session.1 This Committee was mandated to adopt the work of the previous Committee and continue the consideration of the stakeholder and public submissions and the clause by clause examination of the Bill and report by December 31, 2018.

Fourth Session 12.

The Committee’s First Interim Report was presented to the House of Representatives on Monday December 17, 2018 and the Senate on Wednesday January 19, 2018.
The Committee requested and was granted a five (5) month extension to Monday May 27, 2019 to complete its work.

A Second Interim Report was presented in the House of Representatives on Friday May 24, 2019 and in the Senate on Tuesday May 28, 2019.

The Committee requested and was granted a five (5) month extension to by September 27, 2019 in order to complete its work.

At its First Meeting held on Thursday November 22, 2018, the Committee2 elected Mrs. 13.
Camille Robinson-Regis, MP to be its Chair, in accordance with House of Representatives Standing Order 97(3) and Senate Standing Order 87(3).

At this meeting.

The Committee agreed to invite personnel from the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel, PS Secretariat, Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs and the Law Reform Commission to attend all meetings of the Committee.

14.
14.

At its Second Meeting held on Thursday November 29, 2018, the Committee commenced a clause by clause consideration of the Bill.

During this examination the comments received from stakeholders in the Third Session of the Eleventh Parliament were taken into consideration.

The Committee was assisted by personnel from the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel, PS Secretariat, Ministry of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs and the Law Reform Commission.
1 At a sitting of the Senate held on Friday October 19, 2018, Dr. Varma Lennox Deyalsingh was appointed to serve on the Committee in lieu of Dr. Dhanayshar Mahabir.

 2 At a sitting of the Senate held on Tuesday November 27, 2018, Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy was appointed to serve as a member in lieu of Mr. Stephen Creese who was no longer a Senator.

 On July 21, 2019 Mr. Foster Cummings’ appointment as a Senator was revoked by the President of Trinidad and Tobago.
He was henceforth no longer a member of the Committee.

Page 3 of 6 15.

At its Third Meeting on Thursday December 6, 2018, Tobago’s Forum of Political Parties appeared before the Committee and participated in the clause by clause consideration of the Bill.

On that day, the Committee focused on Clauses 2 to 18 with the exception of Clauses 15, 16 and 17 which relate to the proposed Tobago Civil Service as well as the proposed Tobago Service Commission.
At this Meeting the Committee shared its views and those of stakeholders with the Forum.

This meeting with the Forum proved to be immensely helpful and at the end of the meeting, the Committee and the Forum agreed to meet again early in the New Year, once feasible.

16.
16.

At its Fourth Meeting on Thursday December 13, 2018, the Committee discussed Clauses 15 to 17 at length and agreed to invite the relevant experts at the Service Commissions Department to its next meeting scheduled for Thursday January 4, 2019 to provide assistance on the issue of the proposed Tobago Service Commission further to their written submissions.
The Committee also agreed that on that day, it would also hear from the Ministry of Finance and the Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago in relation to the points set out in their stakeholders’ submissions related to Clause 18.

17.

At its Fifth Meeting held on Thursday January 3, 2019, the Committee held a public hearing with the Director of Personnel Administration and her team from the Service Commissions Department.
The purpose of the meeting was for the invited stakeholders to provide clarification and commentary further to their written submissions focusing primarily on the proposed establishment of a Tobago Civil Service and Tobago Service Commission.

18.

At the Sixth Meeting on Friday February 8, 2019, the Committee held a public hearing with senior representatives from the Ministry of Finance and the Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago.
The purpose of the meeting was for the invited stakeholders to provide clarification and commentary further to their written submissions focusing primarily on Clause 18 of the Bill which outlined the proposed financial provisions between the Government of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago Island Government.

19.

At the Seventh Meeting held on Tuesday March 19, 2019, the Committee held an in- camera meeting with Professor Nico Steytler, a Fiscal Federalism Expert.
The focus of the discussions were the comments Professor Steytler submitted in relation to the fiscal arrangements and financial provisions set out in Clause 18 of the Bill.

20.

In accordance with Standing Orders 114(1) and 104(1) of the House of Representatives and the Senate, respectively, the Committee reported that due to the imminent prorogation of the Fourth Session of the Eleventh Parliament it will be unable to complete its work.
As such, the Page 4 of 6 Committee was unable to complete its review of the Bill and submit its final report by the deadline of September 27, 2019.

The Committee recommended that: i. ii.

iii.

iv.
iii.

iv.

the Parliament take note of the progress made by the Committee thus far; the proceedings of the Joint Select Committee established to consider and report on the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2018 be saved and resumed in the next session; in the Fifth Session of the Eleventh Parliament that a similar Committee be appointed to complete the work begun by this Committee; and this new Committee be empowered to adopt as part of its records the work done to date.
Fifth Session 21.

At its First Meeting held on Friday November 08, 2019, the Committee elected Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP to be its Chairman, in accordance with House of Representatives Standing Order 97(3) and Senate Standing Order 87(3).

The Committee also agreed to consider the policy areas contained in the Bill.

Having adopted a significant amount of work done during the last session, the Committee narrowed its focus on the following key policy areas: i. ii.

iii.

iv.
iii.

iv.

the Division of Powers between the State of Trinidad and Tobago and the Island of Tobago; the Tobago Legislature; the Tobago Service Commission and Civil Service; a Dispute Resolution Solution; and the Financial Provisions.

22.

At its Second Meeting held on Monday November 18, 2019, the Committee embarked upon a consideration of the key policy areas of the Bill beginning with Clause 9 (Division of Powers).

23.
23.

At its Third Meeting held on Monday November 25, 2019, the Committee continued discussions on the policy issues, focussing on Clause 18 of the Bill (proposed repeal and substitution of Chapter 11A of the Constitution), and in particular the proposed financial arrangements between the Central Government and the Tobago Island Government.

24.
24.

At its Fourth Meeting held on Thursday December 05, 2019, the Committee met in camera with officials from the Ministry of Finance and the Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago to further its deliberations on the proposed financial arrangements as set out in the Bill.

The Committee also agreed to the engagement of the services of an expert through the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) to conduct detailed clause by clause examinations of the Bill.

Page 5 of 6 25.
Page 5 of 6 25.

At its Fifth Meeting held on Wednesday January 29, 2020, a presentation was delivered by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) Consultants Professor Nico Steytler and Mr. Jason Gluck.

On February 21st, 2020 the Consultants delivered an after mission report and to provided additional advice based on international comparative practice.

26.
26.

The Committee reported that while some progress had been made in the clause by clause analysis and the consideration of stakeholder comments, it was unable to submit its final report by the deadline of August 31, 2020 due to the disruption to Committee meetings caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.

The Committee needed to continue the clause by clause analysis of the Bill and thoroughly study the Report submitted by the UNDP experts.
Consequently, the Committee was unable to submit its final report by the deadline of August 31, 2020.

27.

It was the hope of the Committee that the work done to date would provide the foundation for the further consideration of and reporting on The Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2018 in the Twelfth Parliament.
Page 6 of 6 APPENDIX II DETAILED SUMMARY OF THE COMMITTEE’S WORK IN THE 12TH PARLIAMENT Parliament Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Parliamentary Complex Cabildo Building St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain JSC – Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 SUMMARY OF THE COMMITTEE’S WORK IN THE 12th PARLIAMENT APPENDIX II First Session 2.
At its First Meeting on Wednesday November 18, 2020, the Committee elected Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP to be its Chair, in accordance with House of Representatives Standing Order 97(3) and Senate Standing Order 87(3).

3.
3.

At its Second Meeting on Friday November 10, 2020, the Committee considered an overview of the work done by the previous Committee during the Eleventh (11th) Parliament, which it had inherited, and agreed that this work would constitute resource material for its deliberations in the Twelfth (12th) Parliament.
The following points were noted with respect to the previous Committee’s 4. deliberations:  The Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 seeks to give Tobago autonomy status whilst maintaining the unitary State of Trinidad and Tobago;  The previous Committee held 20 meetings, received submissions from stakeholders both in Trinidad and Tobago and identified that the five (5) key policy areas considered by that Committee were: i.
The Division of Powers between the Tobago Island Government and Central Government; ii.

The Financial Provisions; iii.

The Tobago Legislature; iv.

Dispute Resolution; and v. The proposed Tobago Civil Service and Tobago Service Commission.

The committee commenced a Clause by Clause examination of the Bill with the aid of 5. stakeholders’ comments inherited from the previous Committee.

6.
6.

At its Third Meeting on Tuesday November 24, 2020, the Committee commenced its clause by clause examination of the Bill with initial focus on the Division of Powers as well as the proposed responsibilities to be devolved to the Tobago Island Government.

At its Fourth Meeting on Friday December 4, 2020, the Committee continued its 7. consideration of the Division of Powers.

Page 1 of 5 8.
Page 1 of 5 8.

At its Fifth Meeting held December 11, 2020, the Committee commenced its examinations of the clauses regarding the financial provisions of the Bill and, in this regard, was assisted by officials of the Ministry of Finance who were in attendance.

9.

At its Sixth Meeting on January 15, 2021, the Committee commenced its examination of Clause 18 of the Bill relevant to the Tobago Legislature, proposed sections 141 AD-141 AB.

10.
10.

At its Seventh Meeting on February 5, 2021, the Committee continued its examination of Clause 18 relevant to the Tobago Legislature alongside stakeholder comments regarding same.

11.

At its Eighth Meeting on February 18, 2021, the Committee examined the draft of a unicameral legislature prepared by the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC), relevant to the Tobago Legislature.
With a view to preparing a finalised proposal for stakeholder consideration, the Committee identified aspects for further review and re- drafting.

12.

At its Ninth Meeting on March 4, 2021, the Committee continued its consideration of Clause 18 and the updated re-drafts submitted by the Office of the CPC.
The Committee then began its consideration of re-drafted Clause 17, relevant to the proposed Tobago Service Commission and sought the advice of the Attorney General in relation to the expansion of the Public Service Commission.

13.

At its Tenth Meeting on March 11, 2021, the Ministry of Finance provided a presentation on a data driven formula for the determination of the Tobago Minimum Allocation.
Having regard to the intent of the Bill and using population size, land mass and geographical challenges as a basis, the budgetary allocation was determined to be in the vicinity of 6.8%.

The Committee also sought the advice of the Ministry of Finance on the following areas relevant to the financial provisions: The role and composition of the FRC; The Tobago Contingency Fund; and The powers to borrow and invest.
i ii iii The Committee also considered that the Tobago Island Government, having responsibility for the preparation of a Tobago Appropriation Bill, need no longer submit draft Estimates of Expenditure to the National Parliament.

The Committee therefore agreed that this requirement be deleted subject to further stakeholder consultations.

14.

At its Eleventh Meeting on March 25, 2021, the Committee considered some of the outstanding elements upon which a position by the Committee had not been adopted.
The Committee also considered the re-worked version of the Bill and identified further areas for Page 2 of 5 re-drafting.

In so doing, a decision was taken to delete the requirement for a special majority for the approval of Financial Rules in the Tobago Legislature.

15.

At its Twelfth Meeting on April 1, 2021, the Committee considered the comments submitted by the Ministry of Finance relevant to Clause 141 AD-AL and the CPC was requested to make the requisite re-drafts where applicable.
The Committee was also led in a presentation by the Attorney General on the operationalisation and viability of the Fourth and Fifth Schedules.

Several points of concern were raised with regard to the need to prevent a conflict of laws in the preservation of the collective interests of the unitary state.

16.
16.

At its Thirteenth Meeting on April 8, 2021, the Committee agreed to review the draft Constitution Amendment and Tobago Island Government Bill, which incorporated the additional comments from the Ministry of Finance and Office of the Attorney General, respectively.

The Committee also discussed arrangements relevant to the conduct of renewed stakeholder consultations to be held in Tobago and a communication strategy to guide same.

17.
17.

At its Fourteenth Meeting on April 15, 2021, the Committee discussed preparations for its impending Public Consultations to be conducted in Tobago using a hybrid virtual mode of participation.
The Committee itemised the outreach initiatives being spearheaded in this regard including:  A short documentary on the work of the Committee to be broadcast on the Parliament’s channel and social media platforms;  Wide circulation of hardcopies of the Bill;  Advertisements in the print and electronic media throughout Trinidad and Tobago;  Public perception gleaned through an online survey and solicitation of feedback;  Letters of thanks to stakeholders who had made prior submissions on the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2018 with requests for further submissions;  Appearances of Members of the Committee on talk and radio shows.
Members of the Committee also provided their comments and feedback on the draft Bills and identified those areas that were in need of further clarification or amendment.

18.
18.

At its Fifteenth Meeting on April 30 and May 1, 2021, the Committee held Public Consultations wherein Committee Members present in both Tobago and Trinidad were joined virtually by the following entities:  The Tobago Forum of Parties;  The Progressive Democratic Patriots; Page 3 of 5  The Tobago Council of the PNM; and  Individual Tobago public stakeholders.

19.

At its Sixteenth Meeting on May 7, 2021, the Committee discussed the results of the Public Consultations held on April 30-May 01, 2021.
The Committee acknowledged the participatory nature of both the online survey and hybrid public consultations.

The Committee also commenced a consideration of stakeholder comments received on the draft Bills and in so doing identified the specific clauses of the Bill that were in need of further clarification or re-drafting; 20.

At its Seventeenth Meeting on May 14, 2021, the Committee agreed to a May 18, 2021 extension for the final receipt of stakeholder comments on the draft Bills.
The Committee also continued its consideration of stakeholder comments alongside the draft Bills, with a view to amending or clarifying as needed.

21.

At its Eighteenth Meeting on May 20, 2021, the Committee continued its consideration of stakeholder comments received as at May 20, 2021.

The Committee also considered the responses of the CPC relevant to issues raised on specific clauses that were identified at the previous meeting.

22.
22.

At its Nineteenth Meeting on May 25, 2021, the Committee reviewed comments received by the Ministry of Finance and Elections and Boundaries Commission.

At this meeting, the Committee also deliberated on the redrafted clauses of the companion Bills, facilitated in part by stakeholder comments, which resulted in a need for further amendments and re-drafts in this regard.

23.
23.

At its Twentieth Meeting on May, 28, 2021, the Committee was joined by Mrs. Ida Eversley, Deputy CPC and Mr. Delano Bart, QC, expert advisors in the fields of Constitutional Law, devolution of powers in federal systems and Law of the Sea.

The Committee discussed the principles and feasibility of the delineation of Tobago waters and how this could be achieved.
The Committee also deliberated upon key issues such as a determination of how equality of status could be realised, a resolution in the case of a conflict of law, the composition of the Dispute Resolution Committee and the financial provisions.

At this meeting, the Committee also had the benefit of consultation with the legal experts on the re- drafted clauses.

An overview of the first draft of the Committee’s report was also undertaken at this meeting.

24.
24.

At its Twenty-First Meeting on June 1, 2021, the Committee discussed the participatory and inclusive nature of its stakeholder consultations and underscored that though challenged by the circumstances, the Committee had continuously endeavoured to Page 4 of 5 consider the views of all stakeholders and to fulfil its mandate.

The Committee also deliberated upon the updated Bills during this meeting.

During this meeting the Committee acknowledged that a second draft of its report was circulated.

25.
25.

At its Twenty-Second on June 4, 2021, the Committee finalized it report, in part, and gave an overview of its completed draft Bills to Tobago’s political leadership and the Assemblymen of the Tobago House of Assembly.

The Committee thanked the leadership for the assistance given throughout the exercise and confirmed that it had a duty to report its work to the Parliament at this stage.

At this meeting, the Committee agreed on the process for the finalization of its report to be laid on June 9, 2021.
Page 5 of 5 APPENDIX III THE REVISED CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL 8 June, 2021 THE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2021 Explanatory Notes (These notes form no part of the Bill but are intended only to indicate its general purport) This Bill seeks to amend the Constitution to confer self-government on Tobago by providing for the creation of a Tobago Island Government.
To give effect to this change, the Bill thus will provide for a legislature body to be called the House of Assembly, which will have the power to make laws, and an executive body to be called the Tobago Executive Council, which will have executive authority in the Island of Tobago.
However, this law making power would be restricted to the matters listed in Schedule 3 to the companion Bill, the Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021; and similarly, the executive authority would be restricted to the matters listed in Schedule 1 of the said Bill.

This Bill contains twenty-one clauses and requires a special majority vote pursuant to section 54(3), that is, not less than three-fourths of all the members of the House of Representatives and two-thirds of all the members of the Senate.
Clause 1 of the Bill contains the short title of the Act for which this is the Bill.

Clause 2 of the Bill would provide for the commencement of the Act on Proclamation by the President.

Clause 3 of the Bill would provide for the alteration of the Constitution.

Clause 4 of the Bill seeks to amend the preamble of the Constitution, to introduce for the recognition of the right to self-determination of the people of Trinidad and Tobago, and the equality of status between the people of both Islands.
Clause 5 of the Bill seeks to amend section 3 of the Constitution to introduce certain new definitions to the interpretation provision, including a definition of Tobago but for very limited purposes.

Clause 6 of the Bill seeks to amend section 5 of the Constitution to include the Tobago Legislature in subsection (2).
Clause 7 of the Bill seeks to amend section 52 of the Constitution to provide that the High Court shall have jurisdiction to hear disputes in relation to the election or appointment of members of the House of Assembly and its presiding officers, and the decision of the Court of Appeal would be final in relation to such proceedings.
Clause 8 of the Bill seeks to amend section 53 of the Constitution to confer legislative powers on the Tobago Legislature and to address cases of inconsistency between national laws and laws passed by the Tobago Legislature.

Clause 9 of the Bill seeks to amend section 52 of the Constitution to provide for the entrenchment of the new Chapter 11A which deals with the Tobago Legislature.
Clause 10 of the Bill seeks to amend section 61 of the Constitution to provide the manner in which the Tobago Legislature would exercise its legislative making power.

Clause 11 of the Bill seeks to amend section 75 of the Constitution to that Cabinet would not have responsibility for the matters prescribed in relation to Tobago, unless there is an emergency or unforeseen circumstance.
Clause 12 of the Bill seeks to insert after section 75 of the Constitution four new sections (sections 75A, 75B, 75Cand 75D) to provide for the Tobago Executive Council and its powers and jurisdiction; its composition; and for the appointment of Secretaries and Assistant Secretaries by the President on the advice of the Chief Secretary.
Clause 13 of the Bill seeks to amend section 80 of the Constitution to extend the power of the President to act in accordance with the advice of or after consultation with the Tobago Executive Council.

Clause 14 of the Bill seeks to insert after section 81 of the Constitution a new section (section 81A) to provide that the Chief Secretary must keep the President informed about matters concerning the Tobago Island Government.
Clause 15 of the Bill seeks to amend section 120 of the Constitution to increase the composition of the Public Service Commission by providing for two additional members to be appointed from persons ordinarily resident in Tobago.

Clause 16 of the Bill seeks to amend section 121 of the Constitution to provide that in making specified appointments in Tobago, the Public Service Commission must consult the Chief Secretary, and the Chief Secretary will have the power to transfer an Administrator.
Clause 17 of the Bill seeks to amend section 124 of the Constitution to increase the composition of the Teaching Service Commission by providing for two additional members to be appointed from persons ordinarily resident in Tobago.

Clause 18 of the Bill seeks to amend section 129 of the Constitution to provide that the Public Service quorum must include at least one member from Tobago when it deals with matters in relation to Tobago.
Clause 19 of the Bill seeks to repeal Chapter 11A of the Constitution and substitute a new Chapter 11 A which would contain the following sections 141A to 141R: Section 141A would provide for the establishment and powers of the Tobago Legislature.

Section 141B would provide for the composition of the House of Assembly.

2 Section 141C would provide for the powers, privileges and immunities of the House of Assembly.
Section 141D would provide for the swearing-in of members of the House of Assembly, not later than three days after their appointment or election.

Section 141E would provide for the election of the Presiding Officer and the Deputy Presiding Officer, and when any vacancy arises, for the filling such vacancies in both offices.

Section 141F would provide for the appointment of the Chief Secretary and the Deputy Chief Secretary.
Section 141G would provide for filling any vacancy in the office of Chief Secretary and Deputy Chief Secretary.

Section 141H would provide for the appointment of Secretaries and Assistant Secretaries by the President on the advice of the Chief Secretary.

Section 141I would provide for the appointment of the Minority Leader, including any vacancy in this office.

Section 141J would provide for the appointment of Councillors.
Section 141K would provide for the temporary appointments of Councillors in specified circumstances.

Section 141L would provide for a motion of no confidence in the Chief Secretary.

Section 141M would provide for qualification and disqualification for membership of the House of Assembly.

Section 141N would provide the circumstances which can render vacant the seat of an Assembly Member.

Section 141O would provide for when the Presiding Officer may declare the vacancy of the seat of an Assembly Member.
Section 141P would provide for the filling of a vacant seat of an Assembly Member.

Section 141Q would provide for the dissolution of the Tobago Legislature and when a primary election of the House of Assembly is to be held.

Section 141R would provide for the jurisdictional limit of the powers of the House of Assembly and the Tobago Executive Council.
3 Clause 20 of the Bill seeks to insert after section 143 of the Constitution two new sections (section 144 and 145) as follows: Section 144 would provide that where there is dispute between the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago Island Government, both parties shall make efforts to resolve it before approaching the Court.
Section 145 would provide for the establishment, composition and powers of a Dispute Resolution Committee, and the decision of the Court of Appeal shall be final in relation to any challenge to the decision of the Committee.

Clause 21 seeks to amend the First Schedule of the Constitution to provide for Oaths (or Affirmation) of Office for Assembly Members, the Presiding Officer and Deputy Presiding Officer, Chief Secretary, Deputy Chief Secretary and Assistant Secretary, Minority Leader and Councillors.
4 THE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2021 ARRANGEMENT OF CLAUSES Clause 1.

Short title 2.

Commencement 3.

Alteration of Constitution 4.

Preamble amended 5.

Section 3 amended 6.

Section 5 amended 7.

Section 52 amended 8.

Section 53 amended 9.

Section 54 amended 10.

Section 61 amended 11.

Section 75 amended 12.

Sections 75A, 75B, 75C and 75D inserted 13.

Section 80 amended 14.

Section 81A inserted 15.

Section 120 amended 16.

Section 121 amended 17.


Section 124 amended 18.

Section 129 amended 19.

Chapter 11A repealed and substituted 20.

Section 144 and 145 inserted 21.
First Schedule amended 5 BILL AN ACT to amend the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago to accord self-government to Tobago and for related matters Preamble WHEREAS it is enacted by subsection (1) of section 54 of the Constitution that Parliament may alter any of the provisions thereof: And whereas it is provided in subsection (3) of the said section 54 that insofar as it alters certain provisions of the Constitution a Bill for an Act of Parliament under the said section 54 shall not be passed by Parliament unless the final vote thereon in the House of Representatives, it is supported by the votes of not less than three-fourths of all the members of the House and in the Senate, it is supported by the votes of not less than two-thirds of all members of the Senate: And whereas it is intended by this Act to alter the Constitution: Enactment ENACTED by the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago as follows: Short title 1.
This Act may be cited as the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self- Government) Act, 2021.

Commencement 2.

This Act comes into operation on such date as is fixed by the President by Proclamation.

Alteration of Constitution Preamble amended 3.

This Act shall be construed as altering the Constitution.

4.
The Preamble of the Constitution is amended by inserting after paragraph (c), the following paragraph: “ (ca) recognise- (i) the right to self-determination of the people of Trinidad and Tobago, including the right of the people of the Island of Tobago to determine in Tobago their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development; and (ii) the equality of status between the people of the Island of Trinidad and the people of the Island of Tobago, enabling them to access a fair share of the resources and opportunities available to all the people of the Nation of Trinidad and Tobago;”.
6 Section 3 amended 5.
Section 3 of the Constitution is amended – (a) in subsection (1)- (i) in the definition of “public service”, by deleting the words “Tobago House of Assembly established by section 3 of the Tobago House of Assembly Act, in a civil capacity” and substituting the words “Tobago Island Government, in a civil capacity”; and (ii) by inserting in the appropriate alphabetical sequence, the following definitions: “ “House of Assembly” means the House of Assembly of the Tobago Legislature referred to in section 141A; “Tobago Act” means a law passed by the Tobago Legislature in relation to Tobago; “Tobago Executive Council” means the Tobago Executive Council established under section 75A (1); “Tobago Island Government” includes Executive Council and its Divisions; the Tobago “Tobago Legislature” means the Tobago Legislature established under section 141A (1)”; and (b) by inserting after subsection (9), the following subsection: “(10) For the purposes of sections 53, 75, 75A and Chapter 11A, a reference to “Tobago” means the Island of Tobago, Little Tobago, St. Giles Island, Marble Island, Goat Island, Sisters Island and the internal and inland waters of Tobago.”.
Section 5 amended Section 52 amended 6.

Section 5(2) of the Constitution is amended in the chapeau, by inserting after the word “Parliament”, the words “or the Tobago Legislature”.

7.
Section 52 of the Constitution is amended- (a) by inserting after subsection (1), the following: “(1A) Any question whether- 7 (a) any person has been validly appointed as a member of the House of Assembly; (b) any member of the House of Assembly has vacated his seat or is required, under section 141L(2), to cease to exercise any of his functions as a member of the House of Assembly; or (c) any person has been validly elected as Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly in accordance with section 141E, shall be determined by the High Court.”; and (b) in subsection (2), by inserting after the words “subsection (1)”, the words “and subsection (1A)”.
Section 53 amended 8.

Section 53 of the Constitution is amended by renumbering that section as section 53(1) and inserting the following subsections: “(2) Subject to subsections (1) and (3), the Tobago Legislature may make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago with respect to the matters as prescribed.
(3) The power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws shall not extend to- (a) altering the provisions of this Constitution; or (b) any of the matters set out in Chapter 1 of this Constitution.

(4) Where a Tobago Act is inconsistent with an Act passed by Parliament, the Act passed by Parliament shall prevail to the extent of the inconsistency.
(5) Subject to subsection (6), the power of Parliament to make laws having effect in Tobago shall not extend to any of the matters as prescribed under subsection (2).
(6) At any time when it is expressly declared in any Act passed by Parliament that a provision in that Act, 8 being a provision that relates to a matter prescribed under subsection (2) is required to have effect in Tobago- (a) in the interests of external affairs; (b) in the interests of national security; (c) in relation to a state of public emergency; or (d) in relation to a national financial crisis, that provision shall accordingly have effect in the island of Tobago, and where there is any inconsistency between that provision and the provision of a Tobago Act, the provisions of the Act passed by Parliament shall prevail to the extent of the inconsistency.
(7) Where there is an inconsistency under subsection (4) or (6), the inconsistency shall, where possible, be construed with such modifications, adaptations, qualifications and exceptions as may be necessary to bring the Tobago Act into conformity with the Act passed by Parliament.”.

Section 54 amended Section 61 amended 9.

Section 54(3)(b) of the Constitution is amended by inserting after the word “139”, the words “, 141A to 141R”.

10.
Section 61 of the Constitution is amended- (a) by repealing subsection (1) and inserting the following subsection: “(1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution- (a) the power of Parliament to make laws shall, except where otherwise authorised by statute, be exercised by Bills passed by the House of Representatives and the Senate and assented to by the President; and (b) the power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws shall, except where otherwise authorised by statute, be exercised by Bills passed by the 9 House of Assembly and assented to by the President.”; (b) in subsection (2), by inserting after the words “a Bill”, the words “, including a Bill passed by the House of Assembly,”; (c) in subsection (3), by inserting after the words “A Bill”, the words “, including a Bill passed by the House of Assembly,”; and (d) in subsection (4), by inserting – (i) after the words “of Parliament”, the words “or House of Assembly”; and (ii) after the words “that Parliament”, the words “or House of Assembly, as the case may be”.
Section 75 amended 11.
Section 75 of the Constitution is amended- (a) by repealing subsection (1) and substituting the following subsection: “(1) There shall be a Cabinet for Trinidad and Tobago which shall have– (a) the general direction and control of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and shall be collectively responsible therefor to Parliament; and (b) in relation to Tobago, no responsibility for the matters as prescribed under section 75A(1)(b), unless there is an emergency or unforeseen circumstance requiring the intervention of the Cabinet.”; and (b) by inserting after subsection (2), the following subsections: “(3) In determining whether there is an emergency or unforeseen circumstance requiring its intervention under subsection (1)(b), the Cabinet shall consider the following matters: 10 (a) there is an expressed request or invitation from the Tobago Executive Council; (b) where a request under paragraph (a) has not been received within a reasonable period in the circumstances, Cabinet through a Minister shall endeavor to consult with the Tobago Executive Council; or (c) due to the urgency of the circumstances, consultation under paragraph (b) has not been possible and is not practicable.
(4) Where Cabinet has intervened under subsection (1)(b), the Tobago Island Government shall co-operate with the Cabinet in the management of the emergency or unforeseen circumstance.

(5) Subsection (3) shall not apply where a state of public emergency has been declared pursuant to section 8.”.

12.

The Constitution is amended by inserting after section 75, the following sections: “Tobago Executive Council Composition of Tobago Executive Council 75A.
(1) There shall be a Tobago Executive Council which shall have- (a) the general direction and control of the Tobago Island Government and shall be collectively responsible therefor to the Tobago Legislature; and (b) subject to section 75(1)(b), exclusive jurisdiction for the administration within Tobago of the matters as prescribed.

(2) The Tobago Executive Council shall continue to discharge its functions during any period that the Tobago Legislature is dissolved.

75B.
75B.

(1) The Tobago Executive Council shall comprise- (a) the Chief Secretary; 11 Sections 75A, 75B 75C and 75D inserted (b) the Deputy Chief Secretary; and (c) such number of other Secretaries, selected the Assembly Members from among in the President, acting appointed by accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary.

(2) One of the Secretaries appointed under subsection (1)(c) shall be the Secretary of Legal Affairs who shall be an Attorney-at-law admitted to practise in Trinidad and Tobago.
Secretaries of the Tobago Island Government 75C.

(1) The President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary, may, by directions in writing, assign to a Secretary responsibility for any business of the Tobago Island Government, including the administration of any Division of the Tobago Island Government.
is (2) Where a Secretary incapable of performing his functions by reason of his absence from Trinidad and Tobago or by reason of illness, the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary, may appoint another person to act in the office of such Secretary during such absence or illness.
(3) Where any Secretary has been assigned responsibility for any Division of the Tobago Island Government, he shall exercise general direction and control over that Division and, subject to such direction and control, the Division shall be under the supervision of an Administrator whose office shall be a public office.
(4) For the purposes of this section – (a) two or more Divisions of the Tobago Island Government may be placed one under Administrator; or supervision the of (b) two or more Administrators may supervise any Division of the Tobago Island Government assigned to a Secretary.

12 Assistant Secretaries of the Tobago Island Government 75D.

The President shall, on the advice of the Chief Secretary, appoint a Member of the House of Assembly to the office of Assistant Secretary.”.

Section 80 amended 13.
Section 80 of the Constitution is amended by repealing subsection (1) and substituting the following subsection: “(1) In the exercise of his functions under this Constitution or any other law, the President shall act in accordance with the advice of – (a) the Cabinet or a Minister acting under the general authority of the Cabinet, in relation to matters under the Government of Trinidad and Tobago; or (b) the Tobago Executive Council or a Secretary acting under the general authority of the Tobago Executive Council, with respect to matters in Tobago as prescribed under section 75A(1), except in cases where other provision is made by this Constitution or such other law, and, without prejudice to the generality of this exception, in cases where by this Constitution or such other law, he is required to act- (i) in his discretion; (ii) after consultation with any person or authority other than the Cabinet and the Tobago Executive Council; or (iii) in accordance with the advice of any person or authority other than the Cabinet and the Tobago Executive Council.”.
14.

The Constitution is amended by inserting after section 81, the following section: “President to be informed concerning matters of Tobago Island Government 81A.

The Chief Secretary shall keep the President fully informed concerning the general conduct of the Tobago Island Government and shall furnish the President with such information as he may request with respect to any particular matter Island Government.”.

the Tobago relating to 13 Section 81A inserted Section 120 amended 15.
Section 120 of the Constitution is amended – (a) in subsection (1), by deleting the words “two nor more than four other members”, and inserting the words “four nor more than six other members, two of whom shall be ordinarily resident in Tobago”; and (b) by deleting subsection (2) and substituting the following; “(2)The members of the Public Service Commission- (a) other than the members ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President, after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition; and (b) ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President after consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Minority Leader.”.
Section 121 amended 16.
Section 121 of the Constitution is amended- (a) by inserting after subsection (5), the following subsection: “(5A) Before the Public Service Commission makes any appointment in Tobago to the office of Chief Administrator, Administrator, to a head of a department in a Division and to a chief professional advisor in a Division, it shall consult the Chief Secretary.”; and (b) by inserting after subsection (6), the following subsection: “(6A) Power to make appointments on transfer to the office of Administrator, from one such office to another such office carrying the same salary and allowances, shall vest in the Chief Secretary.”.
Section 124 amended 17.
Section 124 of the Constitution is amended- (a) in subsection (1), by deleting the words “four other members”, and inserting the words “six other members, two of whom shall be ordinarily resident in Tobago”; and (b) by deleting subsection (2) and substituting the following: 14 “(2)The members of the Teaching Service Commission- (a) other than the members ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President, after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition; and (b) ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President after consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Minority Leader.”.
Section 129 amended 18.

Section 129 of the Constitution is amended by inserting after subsection (2), the following subsection: “(2A) Notwithstanding subsection (2), where a Service Commission meets, in the exercise of its power in relation to a matter in Tobago, the quorum shall include at least one member appointed from Tobago.”.

Chapter 11A repealed and substituted 19.


Chapter 11A of the Constitution is repealed and the following Chapter is substituted: “CHAPTER 11A TOBAGO LEGISLATURE Establishment of the Tobago Legislature 141A.

(1) There shall be a Tobago Legislature which shall consist of the President and the House of Assembly.

(2) Subject to sections 5 and 53(2) and subsections (3) and (4), the Tobago Legislature shall have power to make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago.
(3) A law in force before the coming into force of this section shall continue to apply to Tobago, until such time as it is replaced by a Tobago Act and until any existing law in relation to matters for Tobago is replaced by a Tobago Act, the existing law shall apply in accordance with the powers and functions of the Tobago Legislature.

(4) Subject this Constitution, the Tobago Legislature shall have such other powers and functions in relation to Tobago as may be prescribed.
the provisions of to 15 (5) A Tobago Act shall have effect in Tobago.
(6) Except on the recommendation or with the consent of the Tobago Executive Council, the House of Assembly shall not – (a) proceed upon any Bill, including any amendment to a Bill which, in the the person presiding, opinion of makes provision for any of the following purposes: (i) for imposing or increasing any charge on the revenues or other funds of Tobago or for altering any such charge otherwise than by reducing it; or (ii) for or compounding remitting any debt due to Tobago; (b) proceed upon any motion, including any amendment to a motion, the effect of which, in the opinion of the person presiding, would be to make provision for any of the purposes aforesaid; or (c) receive any petition which, in the opinion of the person presiding, requests that provision be made for any of the purposes aforesaid.
(7) In this section, a public Bill which, in the opinion of the Presiding Officer in the Tobago Legislature, contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the following matters, namely: (a) the imposition, for the payment of debt or other financial purposes, of charges on public money or the variation or repeal of any such charges; (b) the grant of money to Tobago or to any 16 Composition of the House of Assembly authority or person, or the variation or revocation of any such grant; the appropriation, (c) receipt, custody, investment, issue or audit of accounts of public money; (d) the raising or guarantee of any loan or the repayment thereof, or the establishment, alteration, administration or abolition of any sinking fund provided in connection with any such loan; or (e) subordinate matters incidental to any of the matters referred to in this subsection, shall be referred to as a “Money Bill”.
141B.
The House of Assembly shall consist of – (a) fifteen Assembly Members elected at an election held in accordance with the Representation of the People Act and who are qualified to be electors under section 12 of the Representation of the People Act, or such other number of Assembly Members as corresponds with the number of electoral districts as provided for by an Order made by the President; (b) five Councillors appointed by the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary; (c) three Councillors appointed by the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Minority Leader; (d) two Councillors appointed by the in his discretion from President outstanding persons, in Tobago, from economic or social or community organisations and other major fields of endeavour; and resident 17 (e) a Presiding Officer who may or may not be an Assembly Member, who shall not be a- (i) Secretary or an Assistant Secretary; or (ii) person appointed under paragraph (d).
Powers, privileges and immunities 141C.

(1) The House of Assembly shall have the power to regulate its procedures, including the power to make Standing Orders.

(2) Subject to the rules and Standing Orders of the House of Assembly, there shall be freedom of speech in the Chamber of the House of Assembly.

(3) No civil or criminal proceedings may be instituted against any member or other person for words spoken before, or written in a report of, the House of Assembly or a committee thereof.
(4) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of the House of Assembly, Members of the House of Assembly and committees of the House of Assembly, shall be such as may from time to time be prescribed by the Tobago Legislature and until so defined shall be those that apply to the House of Representatives and to its members and committees.

Swearing in of members of the House of Assembly 141D.
The President shall administer the oath of office set out in the First Schedule to the members of the House of Assembly at a meeting held for such purpose, not later than three days after the date of the election or appointment, as the case may be.

Election of Presiding Officer and Deputy Presiding Officer 141E.
(1) When the House of Assembly first meets after the election and before it proceeds to the dispatch of any other business, it shall elect a person to be the Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly, and if the office of Presiding Officer falls vacant at any time before the next dissolution, the House of Assembly shall, as soon as practicable, elect another person to that office.
(2) When the House of Assembly first meets after the election and before it proceeds to the dispatch of 18 any other business except the election of the Presiding Officer, the House of Assembly shall elect a person to be the Deputy Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly who is not a Secretary, an Assistant Secretary, an Administrator or a person appointed by the President under section 141B.
(3)Where the office of the Deputy Presiding Officer falls vacant at any time before the next dissolution, the House of Assembly shall, as soon as practicable, elect another person to that office.

(4) Where any person who is not a member of the Tobago Legislature is elected to be a Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly he shall, by virtue of holding office of Presiding Officer, be a member of the House of Assembly in addition to the Assembly Members and Councillors.
(5) The President shall administer the oath set out in the First Schedule to the Presiding Officer whenever the occasion arises.

(6) The Presiding Officer shall ex officio be a Justice of the Peace.
(7) A person shall vacate the office of Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officer – (a) in the case of a Presiding Officer elected from among the Assembly Members or in the case of the Deputy Presiding Officer where he ceases to be a member of the House of Assembly, so however that the Presiding Officer shall not vacate his office by reason only that he has ceased to be a member of the House of Assembly on a dissolution of the Tobago Legislature, until the House of Assembly first meets after that dissolution; and (b) in the case of a Presiding Officer elected from among persons who are not members of the House of Assembly– (i) when the House first meets after any Tobago of the dissolution Legislature; 19 Appointment of Chief Secretary and Deputy Chief Secretary (ii) where he ceases to be a citizen of Trinidad and Tobago; or (iii) where any circumstances arise that would cause him to be disqualified for election as a member of the House by virtue of section 141L or any law.
(8) Where the office of Presiding Officer is vacant or the Presiding Officer is for any reason unable to perform any function conferred upon him, that function may be performed by the Deputy Presiding Officer.

141F.
(1) Where there is occasion for the appointment of a Chief Secretary, the President shall appoint as Chief Secretary- (a) the Assembly Member who is the leader of the party who commands the support of the majority of Assembly Members; or (b) where it appears to him that that party does not have an undisputed leader or that no party commands the support of such a majority, the Assembly Member who, in his to likely is most judgment, command the the support of majority of Assembly members, and who is willing to accept the office of Chief Secretary.
(2) Where there is occasion for the appointment of a Deputy Chief Secretary, the President shall appoint as Deputy Chief Secretary an Assembly Member, on the advice of the Chief Secretary.

(3) The President shall administer to the Chief Secretary and Deputy Chief Secretary, respectively, the oath set out in the First Schedule, whenever the occasion arises.

20 Vacancy in office of Chief Secretary and Deputy Chief Secretary 141G.
(1) Whenever the position of Chief Secretary becomes vacant in accordance with this Constitution, the Deputy Chief Secretary shall assume office of Chief Secretary until a new Chief Secretary is appointed.
(2) If the office of Chief Secretary becomes vacant in circumstances in which the office of the Deputy Chief Secretary is also vacant in accordance with this Constitution, the functions of the office of Chief Secretary shall, until such time as a new Chief Secretary or Deputy Chief Secretary assumes office in accordance with section 141F, be performed by a Secretary who is an Assembly Member appointed by the President on the advice of the Tobago Executive Council.
(3) Whenever the Chief Secretary is absent from Trinidad and Tobago or is unable to perform the functions of Chief Secretary by reason of illness or any other cause, the President may authorise– (a) the Deputy Chief Secretary; or (b) during any period when there is no Deputy Chief Secretary, some other member of the Tobago Executive Council, to discharge such of the functions of the office of Chief Secretary as the President may specify, and the Deputy Chief Secretary or other member of the Tobago Executive Council may discharge those functions until his authority is revoked by the President.
(4) Where the Deputy Chief Secretary is unable to perform the function of Chief Secretary for any reason, the discharge of the function of the office of Chief Secretary shall be performed by a Secretary who is also an Assembly Member, and who shall be elected by the Assembly Members from among their number, as the Chief Secretary and following such election, the President shall administer to the Chief Secretary the oath of office set out in the First Schedule.
(5) Whenever the position of Deputy Chief Secretary becomes vacant in accordance with this Constitution, the function of the office of Deputy Chief Secretary shall be performed by a Secretary who is also an Assembly Member, and who shall be elected by the Assembly Members from among their number, as the Deputy Chief Secretary and 21 Appointment of Secretaries and Assistant Secretaries Appointment of Minority Leader following such election, the President shall administer to the Deputy Chief Secretary the oath of office set out in the First Schedule.
141H.

The President shall appoint Secretaries and Assistant Secretaries on the advice of the Chief Secretary and administer to them the oath set out in the First Schedule.

141I.

(1) There shall be an office of Minority Leader and appointments thereto shall be made by the President.
(2) Immediately after administering the oaths of office to the Chief Secretary and the Deputy Chief Secretary, the President shall, if the person concerned is willing to be appointed, appoint as Minority Leader the Assembly Member who, in his judgment is best able to command the support of the greatest number of Assembly Members who do not support the Chief Secretary.
(3) The office of Minority Leader shall become vacant – (a) when he resigns his office; (b) where the holder thereof ceases to be a member of the House of Assembly for any cause other than a dissolution of the House of Assembly; or (c) when the House of Assembly first meets after a dissolution of the House of Assembly.
(4) Where the office of Minority Leader is vacant, whether because there is no member of the House of Assembly so qualified for appointment or because no one qualified for appointment is willing to be appointed, or because the Minority Leader has resigned his office or for any other reason, any provision in this Constitution requiring consultation with the Minority Leader shall, in so far as it requires such consultation, be of no effect.
(5) The President shall administer to the Minority Leader the oath set out in the First Schedule whenever the occasion arises.

22 Appointment of Councillors 141J.

Immediately after the appointment of the Minority Leader under section 141I, the President shall administer to each Councillor the oath set out in the First Schedule.

Temporary appointments 141K.


(1) Where a Councillor is incapable of performing his functions as a member of the House of Assembly by reason of- (a) his absence from Trinidad and Tobago; or (b) illness, the President may appoint a person qualified for appointment as a Councillor to be temporarily a member of the House of Assembly during such absence or illness.
(2) In the exercise of the powers conferred upon him by this section the President shall act- (a) in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary to a in Councillor appointed under section 141B (b); relation (b) in accordance with the advice of the to a Minority Leader Councillor appointed under section 141B (c); and relation in Motion of No Confidence in Chief Secretary (c) in accordance with his own judgment in relation to a Councillor appointed by him under section 141B (d).

141L.
141L.

(1) Where the Assembly Members pass a resolution, supported by the votes of a majority of Assembly Members, declaring they have no confidence in the Chief Secretary and the Chief Secretary does not, within seven days of the passing of such a resolution, either resign or advise the President to dissolve the Tobago Legislature, the President shall revoke the appointment of the Chief Secretary.
that (2) The Chief Secretary shall also vacate his office- 23 (a) when, after any dissolution of the Tobago Legislature, he is informed by the President that the President is about to reappoint him as Chief to appoint another Secretary or person as Chief Secretary; or (b) where for any reason other than a Tobago dissolution of Legislature, he ceases to be an Assembly Member.
the (3) The Deputy Chief Secretary and Secretary shall vacate their office when any person is appointed or reappointed as Chief Secretary.

(4) The Deputy Chief Secretary or a Secretary shall vacate their office where an appointment as the Deputy Chief Secretary or Secretary, respectively, is revoked by the President acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary.
(5) Where, at any time, the Chief Secretary is required under section 141M (1) to cease to perform his functions as a member of the House of Assembly, he shall cease during such time to perform any of his functions as Chief Secretary.

(6) Where, at any time, a Secretary is required under section 141N (1) to cease to perform his functions, he shall cease during such time to perform any of his functions as Secretary.

Qualification and disqualification for membership 141M.
(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person is qualified to be elected as an Assembly Member in a primary election or a bye-election or as a Presiding Officer or appointed as a Councillor if that person – (a) is a citizen of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago; (b) is qualified to be an elector under section 12 of the Representation of the People Act; and 24 (c) resides in Tobago.
(2) A person, not being a citizen of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, is disqualified from being elected or appointed as a member of the House of Assembly, or being a citizen, if he – (a) is a citizen of a country other than Trinidad and Tobago having become such citizen voluntarily, or is under a declaration of allegiance to such a country; (b) has been adjudged or otherwise declared bankrupt under any law in force in any country and has not been discharged; (c) is a mentally ill person within the meaning of the Mental Health Act; (d) is under sentence of death imposed on him by a Court in any country or is serving sentence of imprisonment, by whatever name called, exceeding twelve months imposed on him by such a Court or substituted by competent authority for some other sentence imposed on him by such a Court or is under such a sentence of imprisonment, the execution of which has been suspended; (e) is disqualified from being elected under sections 31 and 32 of the Representation of the People Act; (f) holds, or is acting in, an office of the House of Assembly as may be prescribed, but a person is not disqualified by reason only of receiving, or being entitled to receive, payment by subsistence travelling or way of allowances or a refund of out-of-pocket expenses; (g) is a member of the Senate or the House of Representatives or of a Municipal or 25 Regional Corporation; (h) is disqualified for membership of the House of Representatives by virtue of any law in force in Trinidad and Tobago by reason of his having been convicted of any offence relating to elections; or (i) is not qualified to be registered as an elector at a Parliamentary election under any law in force in Trinidad and Tobago.
(3) The House of Assembly may provide that, subject to such exceptions and limitations, if any, as may be prescribed, a person may be disqualified for membership of the House of Assembly by virtue of- (a) his holding or acting in any office or appointment (either individually or by reference to a class of office or appointment); (b) his belonging to any of the armed forces of the State or to any class of person that is comprised in any such force; or (c) his belonging to any police force or to any class of person that is comprised in any such force.
(4) For the purposes of subsection (2)(d)- are to be required (a) two or more sentences of imprisonment served that consecutively shall be regarded as separate sentences if none of those sentences exceeds twelve months, but if any one of such sentences exceeds that term they shall be regarded as one sentence; and 26 Vacancy of office of a member of the House of Assembly (b) no account shall be taken of a sentence of imprisonment imposed as an alternative to or in default of the payment of a fine.

141N.
(1) Subject to section 141O, the seat of an Assembly Member becomes vacant where he – (a) submits a written resignation to the Presiding Officer or, in the case of the Presiding Officer, where he submits a written resignation to the President or his is appointment as Presiding Officer revoked in accordance with subsection (2); (b) is absent from ordinary sittings of the House of Assembly for such period and in such circumstances as may be set out in the Standing Orders of the House of Assembly; or (c) ceases to possess any of the qualifications required by section 141M(1) or is or becomes disqualified from being a member of the House of Assembly for any of the reasons set out in section 141M (2).
(2) The President shall revoke – (a) the appointment of a Councillor on the advice of the person who nominated him or by reason of any of the matters set out in subsection (1); and (b) the appointment of the Presiding Officer following a vote of no confidence against him supported by a majority of the members of the House of Assembly.

Declaration of vacancy 141O.


(1) The Presiding Officer shall formally declare a vacancy in the House of Assembly – (a) at the first meeting of the House of Assembly following the vacating of a seat by virtue of section 141N or 141M(4); or 27 Filling of vacancies (b) on the adoption of a motion of the members of the House of Assembly based on the recommendation of a committee appointed for the purpose of section 141N (1)(c).
(2) A vacancy pursuant to subsection (1) shall have effect from the date on which it is so declared.

(3) The notice of a declaration of vacancy shall be signed by the Clerk and sent forthwith to the President and a copy thereof shall be posted up in a prominent position on the outer door of the Chamber of the House of Assembly and published in the Gazette and in at least one daily newspaper circulating in Trinidad and Tobago and may be published electronically or by any other means.

141P.
141P.

(1) Where the President is notified that the seat of an Assembly Member has become vacant, the President shall, subject to subsections (2) and (3), issue a writ addressed to the Returning Officer of the corresponding electoral area for the holding of a bye-election for the election of an Assembly Member to fill the vacancy.
(2) The President shall, after consultation with the Chief Secretary, fix the date of a bye-election for the election of an Assembly Member, which date shall not be earlier than the expiration of two months after the declaration of the vacancy nor later than the expiration of three months after that declaration.
(3) No bye-election for the election of an Assembly Member shall be held within a period of one year prior to the holding of a primary election and the President may decline to issue a writ under subsection (1) if the vacancy is declared within one year from the date on which the House of Assembly is due to stand dissolved.
(4) Where the office of the Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officer is declared vacant, an election to fill that vacancy shall be held at the meeting of the House of Assembly next following the declaration of the vacancy.

28 Dissolution of the Tobago Legislature (5) A person elected or appointed to the House of Assembly to fill a vacancy shall be administered the relevant oath of office by the President.

141Q.
141Q.

(1) The Tobago Legislature shall be dissolved- (a) four years from the date of its first meeting after any primary election; (b) by a resolution supported by a majority of two thirds of the Assembly Members; or (c) by the President, acting in accordance with section 141L (1).
(2) A primary election for the House of Assembly shall be held on the - (a) second Monday after the date of the fourth anniversary of the last primary election; or (b) fourth Monday after the date of any accordance with dissolution subsection (1)(b) or (c).

in (3) Where the date specified under subsection (2) is a public holiday or the date of a general election, the primary election of the House of Assembly shall be held on the Monday of the following week.

Jurisdictional limit 141R.


The powers of the House of Assembly and the Tobago Executive Council under section 53, 75A, 75B, 75C, 75D and this Chapter and any other law shall have effect within Tobago.”.

29 New sections 144 and 145 inserted 20.

The Constitution is amended by inserting after section 143, the following sections: “Resolution of dispute 144.
Where there is a dispute between the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago Island Government, both parties to the dispute shall make every reasonable effort to resolve the dispute by means of mechanisms and procedures provided or adopted for that purpose, and shall exhaust such mechanisms and procedures before it approaches a Court to resolve the dispute.

Dispute Resolution Committee 145.

(1) A Dispute Resolution Committee is established.


(2)The Dispute Resolution Committee shall comprise five members as follows: (a) two members appointed by the Prime Minister; (b) two members appointed by the Chief Secretary; (c) one member appointed by the President, after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary, who shall be the Chairman.
(3) The Dispute Resolution Committee shall have the jurisdiction to mediate or mitigate any disputes that may arise in relation to the exercise of administrative powers as prescribed.

(4) The Dispute Resolution Committee shall make recommendations to the Prime Minister, who shall consult with the Chief Secretary before making a decision.

(5) A review of a decision of the Prime Minister shall lie to the High Court.
(6) An appeal against a decision of the High Court under subsection (5) shall lie to the Court of Appeal, and the decision of the Court of Appeal shall be final.”.

30 First Schedule amended 21.

The Constitution is amended by inserting in the First Schedule the following: “FORM OF OATH (OR AFFIRMATION) OF OFFICE FOR AN ASSEMBLY MEMBER (Section 141D) I,……………………………………………………………………………….., having been elected an Assembly Member for Tobago do swear by……………………………………………………………………………….
(solemnly affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Trinidad and Tobago, will uphold the Constitution and the law, and will conscientiously and impartially discharge the duties and responsibilities of Assembly Member that I am now about to assume.
FORM OF OATH (OR AFFIRMATION) OF OFFICE FOR THE PRESIDING OFFICER AND THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER (section 141E) I,……………………………………………………………………………, having been elected Presiding Officer/Deputy Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly do swear by ……………………………………………..(solemnly affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Trinidad and Tobago, will uphold the Constitution and the law, and will conscientiously, impartially and to the best of my knowledge, judgment and ability discharge the functions of my office.
FORM OF OATH (OR AFFIRMATION) OF OFFICE FOR THE CHIEF SECRETARY, DEPUTY CHIEF SECRETARY, SECRETARY AND ASSISTANT SECRETARY (Sections 141F and141H) I, ………………………………………………...……………………….., do swear by…………………………………………………..….
(solemnly affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Trinidad and Tobago, will uphold the Constitution and the law, and will conscientiously, impartially and to the best of my ability Secretary/Deputy Chief Secretary/Secretary/Assistant Secretary and do right to all manner of people without fear or favour, affection or ill-will.
discharge my as Chief duties 31 FORM OF OATH (OR AFFIRMATION) OF OFFICE FOR MINORITY LEADER (Section 141I) I,………………………………………………………………………………., having been appointed a Minority Leader for Tobago do swear by …………………………………………………(solemnly affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Trinidad and Tobago, will uphold the Constitution and the law, and will conscientiously and impartially discharge the duties and responsibilities of Minority Leader that I am now about to assume.
FORM OF OATH (OR AFFIRMATION) OF OFFICE FOR COUNCILLORS (Section 141J) I,………………………………………………………………….…...…, having been appointed a Councillor swear by…………………………...…………………………………….

(solemn ly affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Trinidad and Tobago, will uphold the Constitution and the law, and will conscientiously and impartially discharge the duties and responsibilities of Councillor that I am now about to assume.”.

for Tobago do Passed in the House of Representatives this day of , 2021.
Clerk of the House IT IS HEREBY CERTIFIED that this Act is one the Bill for which has been passed in the House of Representatives and at the final vote thereon in the House has been supported by the votes of not less than three-fourths of all the members of the House, that is to say, by the votes of members of the House.

I confirm the above.

Clerk of the House 32 Passed in the Senate this day of , 2021.
Clerk of the Senate IT IS HEREBY CERTIFIED that this Act is one the Bill for which has been passed in the Senate and at the final vote thereon in the Senate has been supported by the votes of not less than two-thirds of all the members of the Senate, that is to say, by the votes of Senators.

Clerk of the Senate I confirm the above.


President of the Senate 33 APPENDIX IV THE PROPOSED TOBAGO ISLAND GOVERNMENT BILL THE TOBAGO ISLAND GOVERNMENT BILL, 2021 25 June, 2021 ARRANGEMENT OF CLAUSES PART I PRELIMINARY Clause 1.

Short title 2.

Commencement 3.

Interpretation 4.

Application PART II TOBAGO ISLAND GOVERNMENT 5.

Tobago Executive Council: Jurisdiction for administration 6.

Meetings between Prime Minister and Chief Secretary 7.
Tobago Island Government to act on behalf of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago 8.

Powers of a Secretary 9.

Chief Administrator 10.

Administrators 11.

Appointment on contract PART III TOBAGO LEGISLATURE 12.

Tobago Legislature constituted 13.

Power to make law 14.

Assumption 15.

Time limit for swearing in 16.

Publication of names of members 17.

Remuneration of members 18.

Appointment of certain Select Committees 19.

Public Accounts Committee 20.


Public Administration and Appropriations Committee 21.

Exemption from jury service 22.

House of Assembly is a public body 23.

Members of House of Assembly as persons in public life 24.

Establishment of the Tobago Legislature, Clerk and Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly 25.

Appointment of Clerk and Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly 26.

Salaries and allowances of Clerk and Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly 27.

Publication of Tobago Acts PART IV FINANCE 28.


Establishment of Secretary of Finance as a corporation sole 29.

Seal of corporation sole 30.

Tobago allocation 31.

Tobago Fund 32.

Collection of revenues 33.

Expenditure 34.

Audits of accounts 35.

Retention of monies 36.

Surrender of surplus monies 37.

Power to borrow 38.

Power to invest 39.

Financial Rules 40.

Description of property 41.

Tobago Appropriation Bills 42.

Contingencies Fund 43.


Fiscal Review Committee PART V TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS 44.

Assemblymen deemed to be elected Assembly Members 45.

Continuation of matters and rules of the Tobago House of Assembly 46.

Saving of employment 47.

Staff of the Tobago Island Government 48.

Continuation of association representation 49.

Existing agreements 50.

Continuation of collective agreements 51.

Right of association 52.

Transferral of monies credited to former Fund and appropriated to former Assembly 53.
Vesting of powers, rights and property in the Tobago Island Government 54.

Pending legal proceedings 55.

Savings PART VI GENERAL PROVISIONS 56.

Order to amend Schedules 1 and 2 57.

Consequential amendments 58.

Chap.

25:03 repealed 59.

Chap.

3:01 amended 60.

Chap.

3:02 amended 61.


Written law amended SCHEDULE 1- The List of Matters for Which the Tobago Executive Council Shall Have Exclusive Administrative Jurisdiction in Tobago SCHEDULE 2- The List of Matters for Which the Tobago Legislature Shall Have Exclusive Law Making Powers in Tobago 2 BILL AN ACT to repeal the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.
25:03, and to provide for the powers and functions of the Tobago Island Government and the Tobago Legislature and for related matters Enactment ENACTED by the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago as follows: PART I PRELIMINARY Short title 1.

This Act may be cited as the Tobago Island Government Act, 2021.

Commencement 2.

This Act comes into force on such day as is fixed by the President by Proclamation.

Interpretation 3.
Interpretation 3.

(1) In this Act - “Fiscal Review Committee” means the Fiscal Review Committee established under section 43; Chap.
25:03 “former Assembly” means the Tobago House of Assembly established under the Constitution (Amendment) Act, 1996 and constituted under section 5 of the Tobago House of Assembly Act repealed by this Act; “former Fund” means the Tobago House of Assembly Fund established under the Constitution (Amendment) Act, 1996; “House of Assembly” means the House of Assembly of the Tobago Legislature referred to in section 141A of the Constitution; “Tobago Act” means a law passed by the Tobago Legislature in relation to Tobago; “Tobago Executive Council” means the Tobago Executive Council established under sections 75A (1) of the Constitution; “Tobago Fund” means the Tobago Fund established under section 31; “Tobago Island Government” includes the Tobago Executive Council and its Divisions; 3 “Tobago Legislature” means the Tobago Legislature established under section 141A of the Constitution.
(2) A reference to “Tobago” means the Island of Tobago, Little Tobago, St. Giles Island, Marble Island, Goat Island, Sisters Island and the internal and inland waters of Tobago.

Application 4.
(1) No provision of this Act or of a Tobago Act shall be interpreted so as to - (a) authorise anything which is inconsistent with, or in derogation of the Constitution; (b) authorise the operation of a Tobago Act beyond the confines of Tobago; (c) authorise any convention, declaration, treaty, protocol, agreement or any international compact of any sort whatever between the Tobago Island Government and any foreign State; or (d) contradict any obligations of Trinidad and Tobago under any convention, declaration, treaty, protocol, agreement or any international compact of any sort whatever between Trinidad and Tobago and any foreign State.
(2) The Tobago Island Government shall not do or undertake any action contrary to any obligation of Trinidad and Tobago under any convention, declaration, treaty, protocol, agreement or any international compact of any sort whatever between Trinidad and Tobago and any foreign State.
(3) The Tobago Legislature shall not enact any law contrary to any obligation of Trinidad and Tobago under any convention, declaration, treaty, protocol, agreement or any international compact of any sort whatever between Trinidad and Tobago and any foreign State.

PART II TOBAGO ISLAND GOVERNMENT Tobago Executive Council: Jurisdiction for administration Schedule 1 5.
(1) In accordance with the powers under section 75(A)(1)(b) of the Constitution, the Tobago Executive Council shall have exclusive jurisdiction for the administration within Tobago of the matters set out in Schedule 1.
4 (2) The exclusive administrative jurisdiction, conferred on the Tobago Executive Council by subsection (1) in relation to the list of matters set out in Schedule 1, shall extend to such part of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago comprising those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the low watermark of Tobago and as their outer limits, a line measured seaward from that low watermark, every point of which is at a distance of eleven nautical miles from the nearest point of that low watermark.
Meetings between Prime Minister and Chief Secretary 6.

(1) The Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary shall hold quarterly meetings with a view to formulating administrative and legislative mechanisms for the promotion of harmony in the affairs of Trinidad and Tobago.

(2) The Chief Secretary may, if invited by the Prime Minister so to do, attend meetings of Cabinet in order that the Chief Secretary may represent the interests of Tobago in any matter having or likely to have an effect on Tobago.
Tobago Island Government to act on behalf of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago 7.

(1) The Government of Trinidad and Tobago may by way of Memorandum of Understanding, authorise the Tobago Island Government to act on behalf of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago in respect of any of its responsibilities in Tobago.
(2) Where a statutory authority or a State enterprise provides services in Tobago, that authority or enterprise shall, in providing those services, act in accordance with the policies or programmes of the Tobago Island Government.

Powers of a Secretary 8.

(1) Where a Secretary is assigned responsibility for a Division of the Tobago Island Government, he shall exercise general direction and control over that Division.
(2) Nothing in this Act shall affect mutual consultation between a Minister and a Secretary.

Chief Administrator 9.

(1) There shall be assigned to the Tobago Island Government, a Chief Administrator who shall be a public officer for the purposes of section 121 of the Constitution.

(2) The Chief Administrator shall be an Accounting Officer who shall be responsible for such Division as may be assigned to him by the Chief Secretary.

Administrators 10.
Administrators 10.

(1) Each Division of the Tobago Island Government shall be under the supervision of an Administrator who shall be the Accounting Officer of the Division under his supervision.

5 (2) The terms and conditions of service of an Administrator shall be equivalent to those of a Deputy Permanent Secretary.

Appointment on contract 11.


Subject to the guidelines prescribed or issued by the Government in respect of the employment of persons on contract, the Tobago Island Government may appoint on contract such persons as it thinks fit.

Tobago Legislature constituted Power to make law Schedule 2 Assumption Time limit for swearing in PART III TOBAGO LEGISLATURE 12.

The Tobago Legislature shall be constituted by the President and the House of Assembly.

13.
13.

In accordance with the powers under section 53 (2) of the Constitution, the Tobago Legislature may make laws with respect to the matters set out in the Schedule 2.

14.

(1) No person elected or appointed to the House of Assembly shall assume the duties of his office until he is administered the relevant oath of office.

(2) The term of office of a Member of the House of Assembly commences on the day on which he is elected or appointed to office.

15.
15.

(1) Where a person elected or appointed to serve in the House of Assembly is not present at the meeting referred to in section 141D of the Constitution, he shall be administered the oath of office by the President at a meeting convened for that purpose and held not later than one month after the date of his election or appointment to office or, subject to subsection (3), at the next ordinary meeting at which he is present.
(2) Subject to subsection (3), where at the expiration of one month from the date of his election or appointment, a Member has not taken the oath of office, he is disqualified from assuming the duties and responsibilities of a Member and his seat shall fall vacant.
(3) The Presiding Officer may resolve before the expiration of the period of one month of the election or appointment of a Member who has not taken the oath of office, either on his own motion or at the request of that Member, to extend the period of one month to a period not exceeding three months, at the end of which extended period, should the Member not be sworn, his seat shall fall vacant.
(4) Notice of any extension of time granted in accordance with subsection (3) shall be immediately made to the President by the Presiding Officer and announced to the House of Assembly.

6 Publication of names of members 16.


Upon the election or appointment to the House of Assembly, the names of the Members of the House of Assembly shall be posted on the outer door of the Chamber of the House of Assembly and published in the Gazette and in at least one daily newspaper circulating in Trinidad and Tobago and may be published electronically or by any other means.

Remuneration of members and pension scheme 17.


(1) The salaries, allowances and other conditions of service of the Members of the House of Assembly shall be reviewed by the Salaries Review Commission in accordance with section 141 of the Constitution.
(2) The report of the Salaries Review Commission under subsection (1) concerning any review of salaries or other conditions of service, or both, shall be submitted to the President who shall forward a copy to the Chief Secretary for presentation to the Tobago Executive Council and for laying, as soon as possible thereafter, on the table of the House of Assembly.
(3) The House of Assembly shall, in accordance with the Financial Rules made under section 39, establish a pension scheme for the Members of the House of Assembly.

(4) The salaries and allowances payable to the Members of the House of Assembly are a charge on the Tobago Fund.

(5) Section 3(5) of the Constitution applies to the Members of the House of Assembly.
(6) The Chief Secretary, Deputy Chief Secretary, Secretary, Assistant Secretary and the Presiding Officer shall not engage in any trade, business, occupation or other undertaking for profit or remuneration other than that of serving as Chief Secretary, Deputy Chief Secretary, Secretary, Assistant Secretary or Presiding Officer.

Appointment of certain Select Committees 18.
(1) In addition to any other Select Committee which the House of Assembly is empowered to appoint under this Act and its Standing Orders, the House of Assembly shall, within one calendar month after the - (a) commencement of the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Act, 2021; and (b) first meeting of the House of Assembly after any election, or such time as the House of Assembly may resolve not being later than three months thereafter, appoint four Select Committees, to inquire into and report to the House in respect of - (i) matters listed in Schedules 1 and 2; 7 (ii) all Divisions under the Tobago Executive Council; (iii) authorities created by Tobago Acts; and (iv) enterprises owned or controlled by or on behalf of the Tobago Island Government or which received funding from the State of more than two-thirds of its total income in any one year.
(2) A Committee appointed for the purposes set out in subsection (1) may— (a) appoint sub-committees from among its members and delegate any of its powers to such sub- committee and the sub-committee shall make a report of its opinion and observations which shall be laid in the House of Assembly; (b) adjourn from place to place; (c) appoint specialist advisers to assist them in their deliberations; and (d) subject to any order of the House of Assembly or resolution of a Committee, conduct its sitting in public.
(3) A Select Committee in exercising its powers under subsection (2) shall not enquire into the validity of the exercise of the functions of a body referred to in subsection (2)(a) nor modify, alter, rescind or in any way interfere with the decisions of any such body.

(4) The Standing Orders of the House of Assembly shall apply to a Committee appointed under this section.

Public Accounts Committee 19.


(1) There shall be a Public Accounts Committee which shall consist of not less than four nor more than six members.

(2) The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee shall be a member of the Minority, if any, and if willing to act.

(3) The Public Accounts Committee shall be so constituted as to ensure, so far as is possible, that the balance of the parties and groups in the House of Assembly is reflected in the Committee.
(4) Where no member of the Minority is willing to act as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, one of the members appointed pursuant to 8 section 141B (d) of the Constitution and willing to serve shall be appointed Chairman.
(5) The Public Accounts Committee shall consider and report to the House of Assembly on— (a) appropriation accounts of moneys expended out of sums granted by the House of Assembly to meet the public expenditure of Tobago; (b) the report of the Auditor General on any such accounts, balance sheets and other financial statements; (c) the balance sheets, other financial statements and all audited accounts and audited reports of all enterprises that are owned or controlled by or on behalf of the Tobago Island Government; and (d) such other accounts as may be referred to the Committee by the House of Assembly or as are authorised or required to be considered by the committee under any other enactment.
(6) For the purposes of subsection (5) and section 18 (1)(b)(iv), an enterprise shall be taken to be controlled by the Tobago Island Government if the Tobago Island Government or any body controlled by the Tobago Island Government — (a) exercises or is entitled to exercise control directly or indirectly over the affairs of the enterprise; (b) is entitled to appoint a majority of the directors of the Board of Directors of the enterprise; or (c) holds at least fifty per cent of the ordinary share capital of the enterprise, as the case may be.
Public Administration and Appropriations Committee 20.

(1) There shall a Public Administration and Appropriations Committee which shall consist of not less than four nor more than six members.

(2) The Chairman of the Public Administration and Appropriations Committee shall be a member of the Minority, if any, and if willing to act.

(3) The Public Administration and Appropriations Committee shall be so constituted as to ensure, so far as is possible, that there is a balance of the parties and groups.
9 (4) Where no member of the Minority is willing to act as Chairman of the Public Administration and Appropriations Committee, one of the representatives appointed pursuant to section 141B(d) of the Constitution and willing to serve shall be appointed as the Chairman.
(5) The Public Administration and Appropriations Committee shall consider and report to the House of Assembly on— (a) the budgetary expenditure of the Tobago Island Government agencies to ensure that expenditure is embarked upon in accordance with House of Assembly approval; (b) the budgetary expenditure of the Tobago Island Government agencies as it occurs and keep the House of Assembly informed of how the budget allocation is being implemented; and (c) the administration of Tobago Island Government agencies to determine hindrances to their efficiency and to make recommendations the Tobago Island Government for improvement of public administration.
to Exemption from jury service 21.

Notwithstanding any written law, a member of the House of Assembly shall be exempt from jury service.

House of Assembly is a public body Chap.

11:11 Members of House of Assembly as persons in public life Chap.

22:01 Establishment of the Tobago Legislature, Clerk and Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly 22.

The House of Assembly is a public body for the purposes of the Prevention of Corruption Act.

23.
23.

Members of the House of Assembly are persons in public life for the purposes of the Integrity in Public Life Act.

24.

(1) There is established a body known as the Office of the Tobago Legislature, which shall be headed by the Clerk of the House of Assembly.

(2) The offices of the Clerk of the House of Assembly and the Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly are established as public offices.
(3) The terms and conditions of service of the Clerk of the House of Assembly shall be equivalent to those of an Administrator.

10 (4) Section 14A of the Civil Service Act shall apply to the Clerk of the House of Assembly and the Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly.

(5) The offices of Clerk and Deputy Clerk are, for the purpose of sections 42, 43, 110, 120, 122, 133 and 134 of the Constitution, deemed to be public offices.

(6) The Clerk of the House of Assembly shall be an Accounting Officer.
(7) The Clerk of the House of Assembly shall be responsible for- (a) advising the House of Assembly on parliamentary law, practice and procedure; (b) ensuring that the Tobago Legislature is provided with the property, staff and services required for the performance of its legislative functions; (c) the management and administration of the Office of the Tobago Legislature; and (d) the efficient discharge of such functions as are provided to be discharged by him under the Rules and Standing Orders of the House of Assembly or as may be assigned to him by the Presiding Officer.
(8) The Chief Secretary, acting on the recommendation of the Secretary responsible for finance after consultation with the Clerk of the House of Assembly, may from time to time prescribe, by notice published in the Gazette, the offices, other than the office of Deputy Clerk, which are to constitute the staff of the Office of the Tobago Legislature and may likewise prescribe the seniority of offices.

Appointment of Clerk and Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly 25.
(1) The Public Service Commission shall have the power to appoint a person to the office of Clerk of the House of Assembly and the office of Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly, in accordance with section 121(1) of the Constitution.

11 (2) Before the Public Service Commission makes an appointment to the office of Clerk of the House of Assembly and the Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly, it shall consult the Chief Secretary.
(3) A person shall not be appointed to an office mentioned in subsection (1) if the Chief Secretary signifies to the Public Service Commission his objection to the appointment of that person to that office.

(4) The power to make an appointment on transfer to the offices mentioned in subsection (1) from one such office to another such office carrying the same salary and allowances shall vest in the Chief Secretary.
(5) Before the Public Service Commission makes any appointment to or transfers a member of the staff of the Office of the Tobago Legislature, it shall first consult with the Clerk of the House of Assembly.
(6) Before the Public Service Commission appoints a person - (a) to any office on the establishment of the Office of the Tobago Legislature, other than the office of Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly; or (b) holding or acting in any office on the establishment of the Office of the Tobago Legislature to any other public office, Salaries and allowances of Clerk and Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly the Commission shall consult the Clerk of the House of Assembly.

26.
26.

(1) The Salaries Review Commission shall from time to time, with the approval of the President, review the salaries and other conditions of service of the Clerk of the House of Assembly and the Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly.

(2) The salaries and allowances of the Clerk and Deputy Clerk shall be a charge on the Tobago Fund.

(3) The salary payable to the Clerk and Deputy Clerk shall not be altered to their disadvantage after their appointment.

Publication of Tobago Acts 27.


The House of Assembly shall publish the Tobago Acts in the Gazette.

12 PART IV FINANCE Establishment of Secretary of Finance as a corporation sole 28.

(1) The Secretary responsible for finance for the time being shall be a corporation sole by the name of the Secretary of Finance and all property transferred to and vested in the Secretary of Finance by a Tobago Act or otherwise acquired by the Secretary of Finance shall be held in trust for the Tobago Island Government.
(2) Upon and by virtue of the appointment of any person to be Secretary of Finance, the benefit of all Deeds, contracts, bonds, securities or things in action vested in his predecessor at the time of his predecessor ceasing to hold office shall be transferred to and vested in and enured for the benefit of the person so appointed in the same manner as if he had been contracted with instead of his predecessor and as if his name had been inserted in all such deeds, contracts, bonds or securities instead of the name of his predecessor.
Chap.

8:02 (3) Notwithstanding the provisions of the State Liability and Proceedings Act, the Secretary of Finance may sue or be sued in his corporate capacity but only with respect to any real or personal property for the time being vested in him.

Seal of corporation sole 29.

(1) The Secretary of Finance as a corporation sole shall have a seal which shall be kept in his custody and shall be judicially noticed as such.
(2) The seal of the corporation sole may be affixed to documents and instruments in the presence of the Secretary of Finance and shall be attested by the signature of the Secretary of Finance, and the signature shall be sufficient evidence that the seal was duly and properly affixed and is the lawful seal of the corporation sole.
(3) All documents, other than those required by law to be under seal, made by, and all decisions of, the corporation sole may be signified under the hand of the Secretary of Finance.
(4) Notwithstanding the provisions of the Registration of Deeds Act and the Real Property Act relating to the matters thereunder required to be performed and to the mode of their performance prior to the registration of a deed, document or other instrument, the affixing of the seal of the corporation sole and the signing by the Secretary of Finance in the manner set out in subsection (2) shall be, and shall be taken as, sufficient evidence for the purposes of those Acts of the due execution by the corporation sole of any deed, document or other instrument.
Chap.

19:06 Chap.

56:02 13 Tobago allocation 30.

Parliament shall appropriate for the use of the House of Assembly for any financial year no less than 6.8 percent of the total sum appropriated by Parliament in that financial year or such other percentage as may be determined by the Fiscal Review Committee under section 43 and approved by the Parliament by Resolution.

Tobago Fund 31.
Tobago Fund 31.

(1) There shall be a fund called “the Tobago Fund” which shall consist of – (a) such monies as shall be appropriated by Parliament for the use of the Tobago Island Government; and (b) such other monies as the Tobago Island Government may lawfully collect, borrow or be granted.

(2) Monies appropriated by Parliament for the service of the financial year of the House of Assembly shall be credited to the Tobago Fund in quarterly releases in advance en bloc.

Collection of revenues 32.


(1) Notwithstanding section 13 of the Exchequer and Audit Act, all revenue collected in Tobago on behalf of the Government and payable thereto in respect of activities undertaken or discharged in Tobago shall be paid into the Tobago Fund.

(2) Upon the coming into force of this Act, any company, financial institution or a person operating a business in Tobago shall pay in Tobago all taxes, fees, duties, levies and other imposts in respect of its operations in Tobago.
(3) Monies credited to the Tobago Fund in accordance with subsections (1) and (2) shall be set-off against the annual allocation appropriated by Parliament to the Tobago Fund.

Expenditure 33.

All expenditure incurred by the Tobago Island Government shall be paid out of the Tobago Fund.

Audit of accounts 34.

The accounts of the House of Assembly are public accounts of Trinidad and Tobago for the purposes of section 116 of the Constitution.

Retention of monies 35.


Monies appropriated by Parliament to the Tobago Fund for the service of a financial year which remain unexpended at the end of that financial year shall be retained by the House of Assembly.

Surrender of surplus monies 36.


(1) Subject to subsection (2), where in any financial year, monies paid into the Tobago Fund in accordance with section 31 exceed the quantum appropriated by Parliament to the Tobago Fund for that year, the Tobago Island Government shall retain fifty per cent or such larger portion as the Minister with responsibility for finance, may by Order specify in respect of that year, of such excess to be applied towards such projects as it considers fit.
14 (2) The Tobago Island Government shall surrender the balance of the excess to the Consolidated Fund within the first quarter of the following financial year.

Power to borrow 37.

(1) Subject to subsection (2), the Tobago Executive Council shall have the power to borrow locally and internationally such sums as the Tobago Executive Council considers necessary for the discharge of its functions.
(2) The Tobago Executive Council may borrow – (a) for any purpose relevant to its functions under any written law; (b) for the purpose of the prudent management of its financial affairs; (c) for the purposes of any investment as approved by the Tobago Executive Council; and (d) for any other purpose approved by the Tobago Legislature, subject to the approval of the Minister with responsibility for finance, which should not unreasonably be withheld.

Power to invest 38.
Power to invest 38.

(1) The Tobago Executive Council may invest - (a) for any purpose relevant to its functions under any law; (b) for the purposes of the prudent management of its financial affairs; (c) money that is not, for the time being, required by the Tobago Executive Council for any other purpose; and (d) only in a form of investment approved by the Tobago Legislature.
(2) The Tobago Executive Council shall delegate its responsibility for the management of one of its investment accounts to the Central Bank.

Financial Rules 39.

The Secretary with responsibility for finance shall make Financial Rules as are necessary for the proper management of the finances of the Tobago Island Government which Rules shall be approved by the Tobago Legislature.

Description of property 40.


In any civil or criminal proceedings in respect of any monies or other property whatsoever belonging to, or under the control of the Tobago Island 15 Government, it shall be sufficient to describe the same as being the monies or property of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

Tobago Appropriation Bills 41.


(1) The Secretary responsible for finance shall cause to be prepared and laid before the House of Assembly not later than thirty days after the monies which have been appropriated by Parliament for use by the Tobago Island Government after the commencement of each financial year, estimates of the revenues and expenditure of Tobago Island Government for that year.
(2) The heads of expenditure contained in the estimates, other than expenditure charged upon the Consolidated Fund by the Constitution or any Act, shall be included in a Bill, to be known as the ‘Tobago Appropriation Bill’, providing for the issue from the monies which have been appropriated by Parliament under subsection (1) to the Tobago House of Assembly Fund to be monies necessary to meet that expenditure and the appropriation of those monies for the purposes specified therein.
(3) If in respect of any financial year it is found- (a) that the amount appropriated by the Tobago Appropriation Act for any purpose is insufficient or that a need has arisen for expenditure for a purpose for which no amount has been appropriated by the Act; or (b) that any monies have been expended for any purpose in excess of the amount appropriated for that purpose by the Tobago Appropriation Act or for a purpose for which no amount has been appropriated by the Act, a supplementary estimate showing the monies appropriated by Parliament for use by the Tobago House of Assembly shall be laid before the Tobago House of Assembly and the heads of any such expenditure shall be included in a Supplementary Tobago Appropriation Bill.
Contingencies Fund 42.

(1) The House of Assembly may provide for the establishment of a Contingencies Fund and for authorising the Secretary with responsibility for finance, if he is satisfied that there has arisen an urgent and unforeseen need for expenditure for which no other provision exists, to make advances from the Fund to meet that need.
(2) Where any advance is made in accordance with subsection (1), a supplementary estimate shall be presented and a Supplementary Appropriation Bill shall be introduced as soon as possible for the purpose of replacing the amount so advanced.

(3) Estimates containing the details of the financial requirements shall be presented at the same time as any such Bill and shall immediately stand referred to the Standing Finance Committee.
16 (4) The procedure for the passage of the Appropriation Bill or the Supplementary Appropriation Bill in the Tobago Legislature shall be set out in the Standing Orders and shall include the referral of such Bills together with the relevant Estimates to the Standing Finance Committee of the House of Assembly.

Fiscal Review Committee 43.


(1) There shall be established a Fiscal Review Committee which shall comprise– (a) a Chairman, who shall be the Minister with responsibility for finance or his alternate; (b) a Deputy Chairman, who shall be the Secretary with responsibility for finance or his alternate; (c) one member appointed by the Tobago Executive Council; and (d) two members appointed by the Cabinet.
(2) The members of the Commission appointed under subsection (1)(c) and (d) shall be qualified and have at least ten years of experience in- (a) law; (b) management or business administration; (c) finance or accounting; or (d) economics.

(3) The members of the Fiscal Review Committee shall serve for a period no less than two years and no more than five years.
(4) The responsibilities of the Fiscal Review Committee shall be to – (a) determine and recommend to Parliament the sums required to be appropriated to Tobago in each financial year; (b) establish a mechanism for revenue sharing between the Tobago Island Government and the Government of Trinidad and Tobago; (c) ensure that all revenues, fees and duties collected in 17 Trinidad that are attributable to Tobago such as from custom duties, import duties and stamp duties and other duties shall be held for the account of Tobago; (d) to initiate special audits into any financial matter of the Tobago Island Government; and (e) give due consideration to the financial and developmental needs of Tobago in the context of Trinidad and Tobago and shall allocate financial resources to Tobago as fairly as is practicable, and in determining what is fair and practicable, the following considerations, among others, shall apply: (i) physical separation of Tobago by sea from Trinidad; (ii) isolation from the principal national growth centres; (iii) absence of the multiplier effect of expenditures and investments (private and public) made in Trinidad; (iv) restricted opportunities for employment and career fulfillment; and (v) the impracticability of participation by residents of Tobago in the major educational, cultural and sporting facilities located in Trinidad.
(5) The Fiscal Review Committee shall submit to Parliament prior to the presentation of the budget in any financial year a report on the review of the sums required to be appropriated.

(6) The report of the Fiscal Review Committee shall be taken into consideration by Parliament in making an appropriation above 6.8 percent in any financial year.

PART V TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS Assemblymen deemed to be elected Assembly Members 44.
Notwithstanding section 58, the persons who were Assemblymen of the former Assembly immediately prior to the coming into force of this Act shall, on its coming into force, be deemed to have been elected as Assembly Members pursuant to section 141B of the Constitution, and shall for the purpose of any law relating to the payment of pension benefits to such members not be disqualified solely by reason of this section.
18 Continuation of matters and rules of the Tobago House of Assembly Saving of employment of Staff Tobago Government the Island 45.

(1) Any matter before the House of Assembly which immediately before the commencement of this Act was not disposed of by the Tobago House of Assembly shall continue under the Tobago Legislature.
(2) The rules and orders of the Tobago House of Assembly in force immediately before the commencement of this Act, shall, to the extent that they can mutatis mutandis be applied in respect of the business and proceedings of the Tobago Legislature, continue in force until amended or replaced under this Act.

46.
46.

(1) A person who was employed by an institution established under the Tobago House of Assembly Act, immediately before the date of the coming into force of this Act shall, on that date, be transferred to the Tobago Island Government and all the rights, privileges, tenure and other terms and conditions of service incidental to such employment shall continue in such employment subject to and in accordance with this Act and any other applicable laws regulating such employment.
(2) The superannuation benefits which have accrued to a person under subsection (1), who prior to the coming into in force of this Act was employed by the former Assembly, shall be preserved at the date of his transfer to the Tobago Island Government, and such person shall continue to accrue superannuation benefits on the basis of the salary applicable to the office which he held immediately prior to his transfer to the Tobago Island Government.
(3) Executive authority which was vested in any person, immediately before the commencement of this Act, shall during the period in which that person continues in office in terms of subsection (1), be exercised in accordance with the Tobago House of Assembly Act, as if it had not been repealed or superseded by this Act, and any such person shall continue to administer any Division or other institution which was entrusted to, and to exercise and perform any power or function which was vested in him immediately before that commencement.
(4) A person who immediately before the commencement of this Act was employed on contract by an institution established under the Tobago House of Assembly Act shall continue in such employment under this Act, until the expiration of the term of the contract.

47.
47.

(1) This section applies to an officer who, on the date of the coming into force of this Act- (a) holds a permanent appointment to; or (b) holds a temporary appointment to, and has served at least two continuous years in, 19 an office in the Public Service on the establishment of the Tobago House of Assembly.
(2) A person to whom this section applies may, within three months of the coming into force of this Act, exercise one of the following options: (a) voluntarily retire from the Public Service on terms and conditions agreed between him or his appropriate recognized association and the Chief Personnel Officer; (b) transfer to the Tobago Island Government with the approval of the appropriate Service Commission on terms and conditions no less favourable than those enjoyed by him in the Public Service; or (c) remain in the Public Service, provided that an office commensurate with the office held by him in the Public Service prior to the date of the coming into force of this Act, is available.
Continuation of association representation 48.

Subject to any written law, a person transferred under section 46 shall, for the purpose of collective bargaining, continue to be represented by the relevant representative association that formerly represented him.

Existing agreements Chap.

88:01 49.


An agreement applicable to a person transferred under section 46, shall be valid and binding on the relevant representative association and the Tobago Island Government, and such agreement is deemed to be registered under the Industrial Relations Act.

Continuation of collective agreements 50.


Upon the commencement of this Act and subject to any written law a collective agreement or other agreement that immediately prior to the commencement of this Act affected a person transferred under section 46, shall continue to have effect in relation to such a person.

Right of association 51.

Persons employed in the Tobago Island Government may form an association which may be registered as a trade union or may join a trade union.
Transferral of monies credited to former Fund and appropriated to former Assembly 52.

Upon the coming into force of this Act- (a) all sums of monies credited to and all charges on the former Fund shall be transferred to the Tobago Fund; and (b) all sums of monies appropriated to the former Fund shall be appropriated to the Tobago Fund.

20 Vesting of powers, rights and property in the Tobago Island Government 53.
Upon the coming into force of this Act- (a) all lands and other property of every kind located in Tobago vested in the State except the residences of the President and the Prime Minister are hereby vested in the Secretary of Finance who shall hold them in trust for the Tobago Island Government in right of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago; (b) all lands and other property of every kind, including things in action, vested in the former Assembly are hereby vested in the Secretary of Finance who shall hold them in trust for the Tobago Island Government ; and (c) all the rights, privileges and benefits and all the liabilities and obligations that, immediately before the coming into force of this Act, the former Assembly was entitled or subject to, are hereby transferred to and conferred or imposed upon the Secretary of Finance.
Pending legal proceedings Savings 54.

Legal proceedings pending immediately before the coming into force of this Act by or against the former Assembly may, on the coming into force of this Act, be continued by or against the Tobago Island Government as the party to the proceedings instead of the former Assembly.

55.
55.

Notwithstanding the repeal of the Tobago House of Assembly Act by this Act, the Tobago House of Assembly Financial Rules, 1990 shall, until such time as Financial Rules are made and approved under section 39 and come into force, remain in force and apply to the House of Assembly with such modifications as are necessary for conformity with this Act.

PART VI GENERAL PROVISIONS Order to amend Schedules 1 and 2 56.
The President may by Order, subject to negative resolution of Parliament, amend Schedule 1 and Schedule 2 to add any other matter.

Consequential amendments 57.

(1) A reference in any written law to the former Assembly shall be construed as a reference to the House of Assembly or the Tobago Island Government, as the case may be.

(2) A reference in any written law to Assemblyman shall be construed as a reference to Assembly Member.

Chap.

25:03 repealed 58.

The Tobago House of Assembly Act is repealed.


21 Chap.

3:01 amended 59.
The Interpretation Act is amended in- (a) section 4, by inserting after the words “Every Act” the words “or Tobago Act”; (b) section 5, by inserting after the words “an Act” the words “or a Tobago Act”; (c) section 8, by inserting after the words “Act” wherever it occurs, the words “or a Tobago Act”; (d) section 9, by inserting after the words “An Act” the words “or a Tobago Act”; (e) section 14 (2), by inserting after the word “Act” the words “or Tobago Act”; (f) section 17(9), by inserting after the word “Act” wherever it occurs, the words “or a Tobago Act”; (g) section 19, by inserting after the words “an Act” and “the Act”, the words “or a Tobago Act” and “or the Tobago Act”, respectively; (h) section 49, by inserting after the word “Act” wherever it occurs, the words “or a Tobago Act”; (i) section 66(1), by inserting after the word “Act” wherever it occurs, the words “or Tobago Act”; (j) section 68(2), by inserting after the word “Act” wherever it occurs, the words “or Tobago Act”; (k) section 75(1), in the definition of – (i) “statutory document” by inserting after the word “Act”, the words “or a Tobago Act”; (ii) “statutory instrument” by inserting after the words “House of Parliament” the words “or the Tobago Legislature”; and (iii) “written law” by inserting after the word “Acts” the words ”, Tobago Acts,”; and (l) section 79, in the definition of “statutory board” by inserting after the words “an Act”, the words “or a Tobago Act”.
22 Chap.

3:02 amended 60.
The Statutes Act is amended in- (a) section 2, by inserting after the word “ “Acts” ” the words “or “Tobago Acts”, as the case maybe”; (b) section 3– (i) in subsection (2), by deleting the full stop and inserting after the words “as follows:”” the words “, or “Enacted by the Tobago Legislature as follows:”, as the case may be.”; and (ii) by inserting after subsection (3), the following subsection: “(3A) In every Bill passed under section 141A of the Constitution and presented to the President for assent, the words of enactment shall be as follows: “Enacted by the President by and with the advice and consent of the Tobago Legislature in accordance with section 141A of the Constitution and by the authority of the same as follows:” ”; (c) section 4, by inserting after the word “Representatives”, the words “or the Clerk of the House of Assembly, as the case maybe,”; (d) section 6, by inserting after - (i) subsection (1), the following subsection: “(1A) When the Constitution, for any purpose, requires a Bill to be supported at the final vote thereon by the votes of a specified proportion of the members of the House of Assembly, the Clerk of the House of Assembly shall certify whether any such Bill passed by the House of Assembly was at the final vote supported by the votes of the required proportion of the members of the House of Assembly.”; and (ii) the words “and authenticated”, the words “under subsection (1) or (1A)”; 23 (e) section 7(2), by inserting after the – (i) word “Representatives”, the words “or the Clerk of the House of Assembly, as the case may be,”; and (ii) words “of Parliament”, the words “or the Tobago Legislature”; (f) section 8, by inserting after the words “House of Representatives” wherever they occur, the words “or Clerk of the House of Assembly”; (g) section 9, by inserting after the word “Parliament”, the words “or the Tobago Legislature, as the case may be”; (h) section 11, by inserting after the word “Parliament” wherever it occurs in subsections (2), (3) and (4), the words “or the Tobago
 Legislature, as the case may be,”; and (i) section 12(2), by inserting after the words “of Parliament”, the words “or a Tobago Act”.
61.

Trinidad and Tobago Order in Council, 1898 is amended in clause 2 by deleting the words “, the Island of Tobago shall be a Ward of the Colony of Trinidad and Tobago; and”.

Written law amended Council Paper No.

177 of 1898/ M.P.

No.

4533/1898 SCHEDULE 1 (Section 5) THE LIST OF MATTERS FOR WHICH THE TOBAGO EXECUTIVE COUNCIL SHALL HAVE EXCLUSIVE ADMINISTRATIVE JURISDICTION IN TOBAGO 1.

Agriculture 2.

Community Development 3.


Construction and maintenance of public buildings and the maintenance of the residences of the President and Prime Minister 4.

Co-operatives 5.

Culture and the Arts 6.

Customs and Excise 24 7.

Education, including Curriculum Except- National Accreditation System 8.

Emergency Management Services 9.


Finance, that is to say the collection of revenue and the meeting of expenditure incurred in the carrying out of the functions of the Tobago Island Government Except- Banking (Central and Commercial) Financial Intelligence Foreign Exchange and Exchange Control Macro-economic policy National Insurance National Pension Scheme Taxation 10.

Fisheries 11.

Food Production 12.

Forestry 13.

Health Services 14.

Highways and Roads 15.

Housing 16.

Industrial Development 17.


Infrastructure, including air and sea transport, wharves and airports and public utilities 18.

Labour 19.

Land and Marine parks 20.

Library Services 21.

Licensing 22.

Marketing 23.

Museums, archives, historical sites and historical buildings and Cemeteries 24.

Office of the Chief Secretary Except- Commission of Enquiry Constitutional Matters’ Protocols for State Public Holidays Children’s Authority of Trinidad and Tobago 25.
Office of the Secretary of Legal Affairs Except- Anti-Money Laundering, Counter Financing of Terrorism and Proliferation Financing (AML/CFT/PF) Appointments to Quasi-Judicial Bodies Children’s Attorney Constitutional Reform Construction of court facilities for the Judiciary The Criminal Justice System 25 Intellectual Property International Office of Child Rights Law Reform Commission Law Revision Commission Legal Service Complaints National Anti-Money Laundering and Counter Financing of Terrorism Committee National Biosafety Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Office of the Chief State Solicitor Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions Office of the Solicitor General Registrar General Central Authority Council of Legal Education Environmental Commission Equal Opportunity Commission Equal Opportunity Tribunal Hugh Wooding Law School Industrial Court International Law and Human Rights Unit Legal Aid and Advisory Authority Sentencing Commission Tax Appeal Board 26.
Planning and Development Except- National Framework for Sustainable Development National Monitoring and Evaluation National Statistics National Trust National Development Plan National planning and development 27.

Plant and Animal Quarantine 28.

Postal services and collection of revenue therefrom 29.

Public Utilities Except- Meteorological Services 30.

Social Welfare 31.

Sports 32.

State Lands 33.

Statistics and Information 34.

Telecommunications 35.


The Environment Except- Environmental Management Authority National environmental conservation 36.

The Tobago Legislature 26 37.

Tourism, including amenities and levies 38.

Town and Country Planning 39.

Valuations 40.

Works 41.

Youth Development.

42.


The Tobago Executive Council shall have exclusive administrative jurisdiction in relation to the list of matters set out above within Tobago and such part of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago comprising those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the low watermark of Tobago and as their outer limits, a line measured seaward from that low watermark, every point of which is at a distance of eleven nautical miles from the nearest point of that low watermark.
SCHEDULE 2 (Section 13) THE LIST OF MATTERS FOR WHICH THE TOBAGO LEGISLATURE SHALL HAVE EXCLUSIVE LAW MAKING POWERS IN TOBAGO 1.

Agriculture, Plant and Animal Quarantine 2.

Community Affairs and Cooperatives 3.

Conservation (other than national environmental conservation) 4.

Consumer Affairs 5.

Culture and Entertainment 6.

Economic Planning and Development (other than macro-economic policy, national planning and development) 7.

Education, Library, Training and Skills development 8.
Emergency Management Systems 9.

Employment of persons who are not citizens 10.

Financial matters, including borrowing, investment, revenue and other matters of the Tobago Island Government (other than Banking (Central and Commercial), Financial Intelligence, Foreign Exchange and Exchange Control, Macro-economic policy, National Insurance, National Pension Scheme and Taxation) 11.

Forestry 12.

Generation, Supply and Distribution of renewable energy 13.
Health and Social Services (other than national pension) 14.

Heritage and Historical sites 15.

Housing 27 16.

Industries, Trade and Businesses 17.

Land and Buildings other than land and buildings vested in the State and specifically appropriated to the use of the Government, including holding of land by persons who are not citizens 18.

Matters related to the proceedings and operations of the Tobago Legislature 19.

Prevention and control of fires 20.


Restaurants, Bars, Casinos and other similar establishments 21.

Sport 22.

The Environment (other than the Environmental Management Authority) 23.

Tourism, including amenities and levies 24.

Transport, Roads and Highways.

Passed in the House of Representatives this day of , 2021.

Clerk of the House I confirm the above.

Speaker Passed in the Senate this day of , 2021.

Clerk of the Senate I confirm the above.


President of the Senate 28 APPENDIX V LEGAL OPINION OF MR. DELANO BART, QC APPENDIX V APPENDIX VI OPINION OF AMBASSADOR GERALD THOMPSON Opinion on certain maritime aspects of the draft Bill for an Act to Amend the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago to accord self- government to Tobago, to repeal the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.
25:03 and for related matters APPENDIX VI The policy to which the draft Bill seeks to give legislative expression is the grant of full internal self- government to Tobago as an integral part of the sovereign democratic Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

It is noteworthy that the policy of conferring greater autonomy on the proposed Tobago Island Government (TIG) is consistent with the thrust in Trinidad to grant greater devolution of authority to the Municipal Corporations.
Clause 4 of the draft Bill seeks, inter alia, to amend the Constitution to provide for definitions of the Island of Trinidad and the Island of Tobago in relation to the archipelagic baselines as well as the archipelagic waters and the territorial sea now appertaining to the republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

The draft Bill in Clause 4(5) seeks to delineate a maritime area over which the Tobago Island Government would have jurisdiction.
There is also language in Clause 4 which refers to the exercise by Trinidad and Tobago of sovereign rights over the living and non-living resources of the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and “its” continental shelf.

It is to be noted in this regard that Trinidad and Tobago’s claim to the continental shelf is not restricted to the seabed and subsoil of the 200-mile EEZ but extends much further to 350 nautical miles from the territorial sea baselines and beyond.
In treating with the delineation of a maritime area over which the relevant Tobago institutions would have jurisdiction, taking into account the island’s constitutional history and the separation of its population by sea from Trinidad, consideration would need to be given to: (a) whether the jurisdiction to be conferred on the proposed TIG should extend to a designated area of maritime space around the island of Tobago (hereinafter referred to as the “Tobago Maritime Zone”); (b) how should the Tobago Maritime Zone be delineated or demarcated; (c) the envisaged spatial extent of the Tobago Maritime Zone; and (d) the powers and responsibilities exercisable by the TIG in the proposed Tobago Maritime Zone.
1 Whether the jurisdiction to be conferred on the proposed Tobago Island Government should extend to the Tobago Maritime Zone It is not unreasonable to adopt the position that the TIG should possess the power to enforce its laws in the sea surrounding Tobago.

If it were otherwise, the TIG would lack the authority to enforce certain laws relating to activities or operations in the waters adjacent to Tobago.
For example, as part of its regulation of the use of certain equipment in the waters surrounding Tobago, the TIG may decide to impose restrictions on where such equipment may be used.

It would need to have the requisite jurisdiction conferred by Parliament in order to enforce any such laws.
As part of its responsibilities in telecommunications, the TIG would need to be vested with the authority to deal with violators of the relevant laws who might base their operations at sea in the waters surrounding Tobago in order to avoid the reach of a Government whose remit extends only to the terrestrial sphere and stops at the low- water mark.
Likewise, if the powers and responsibilities of the TIG include fisheries, it would need to have a clearly delineated maritime space over which its jurisdiction could be exercised.
It is relevant to note in this regard that fisheries is one of those areas in respect of which the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago maintains, by treaty or agreements and arrangements made pursuant to various treaties, obligations to the other States of the international community which can only be properly carried out by the Central Government.
Accordingly, it is important to consider that any conferment of authority on the TIG for fisheries in the Tobago Maritime Zone would have to be made subject to the continuing authority of the Central Government to treat in that Zone with those fisheries matters for which it continues to have international responsibility on behalf of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

Any fisheries laws made by the Tobago Legislature would need to respect this existing separation of powers and responsibilities.
Management of the operational issues which would inevitably arise, in fisheries and other sectors, when two different entities exercise concurrent jurisdiction in the same space would need to be addressed and clarified in memoranda of understanding or protocols developed by the relevant divisions of the Central Government and the TIG.

2 In this regard, it is noteworthy that s.4 of the Tobago House of Assembly Act states in pertinent part as follows: “4.
No provision of this Act or of an Assembly Law shall be construed or interpreted so as to authorise— (a) … (b) any operation of any Assembly Law beyond the confines of the island of Tobago and such part of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago comprising those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the baselines of Tobago as determined in accordance with section 5 of the Territorial Sea Act, and as their outer limits, a line measured seaward from those baselines, every point of which is distant six nautical miles from the nearest point of those baselines unless the contrary is expressly stated therein; (c) …” It is evident that the current Tobago House of Assembly Act (THA Act) envisages in s.4(b) that the operation of any Assembly Law would extend up to a distance of six nautical miles measured from the territorial sea baselines of Tobago as determined in accordance with s.5 of the Territorial Sea Act.
The territorial sea baselines mentioned in s.5 of the Territorial Sea Act are in fact the archipelagic baselines of Trinidad and Tobago from which the breadth of the territorial sea of the State of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is measured.

It is not known whether this provision of the THA Act has ever been operationalised.
In the course of extending the reach of Assembly Laws to the territorial sea, s.4(b) creates an implementation gap that could not have been intended when it describes the space over which the Laws would apply as constituting “the island of Tobago and such part of the territorial sea …” By completely ignoring the archipelagic waters intervening between the land and the territorial sea, this description leads to an irrational result in which Assembly Laws would be capable of being applied on land and in the territorial sea but not in the intervening archipelagic waters.
Section 4(b) of the THA Act suffers from a second major defect.

In the effort to define Tobago so as to include some maritime space over which Assembly Laws would be applied, Tobago is defined with reference to “the baselines of Tobago as determined in accordance with section 5 of the Territorial Sea Act”.

Manifestly, no such separate archipelagic baselines exist for Tobago (or for Trinidad) in accordance with s.5 of the Territorial Sea Act.
3 Whether or not s.4(b) has ever been operationalised, there is no gainsaying that this important provision of the existing THA Act is so defective as to render its effective implementation unlikely or problematic at best.

Section 4(b) of the THA Act is relevant to a consideration of Clauses 4(4) and 4(5) of the draft Bill because they are both premised on the existence of archipelagic baselines separately around Trinidad and separately around Tobago.
The draft Bill avoids the first defect of s.4 (b) of the THA Act by making specific mention of the archipelagic waters around Tobago, but it nevertheless imports the second major defect where it purports to define the Island of Trinidad and the Island of Tobago in relation to non-existent baselines around Trinidad and Tobago respectively.
It bears repeating that the straight archipelagic baselines referred to in s.5 of the Territorial Sea Act are baselines around Trinidad and Tobago and not baselines separately around Trinidad and separately around Tobago.

The first question may, therefore, be answered in the positive by virtue of the arguments advanced above as well as by reference to the intendment, not the actual operation, of s.4(b) of the THA Act.
In sum, as a practical matter, the TIG would need to exercise some jurisdiction in the waters adjacent to the shores of Tobago.

But, importantly, s.4(b) of the THA Act does not offer an appropriate guide as to how the Tobago Maritime Zone should be delineated or demarcated.
How should the Tobago Maritime Zone be delineated or demarcated The current draft Bill produced by the Tobago House of Assembly proposes that there should be a definition for the Island of Trinidad and the Island of Tobago as constituent parts of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

The Island of Trinidad is defined by reference to the archipelagic waters and the territorial sea of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago adjacent to it.
Likewise, the Island of Tobago is defined by reference to the archipelagic waters and the territorial sea of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago adjacent to it.

The resulting overlapping archipelagic waters and territorial sea between the Island of Trinidad and the Island of Tobago are then delimited by an equidistant line between north east Trinidad and south west Tobago.
4 It is noted that the approach to the creation in the draft Bill of what is here referred to as the Tobago Maritime Zone appears to be guided by the language and intent of s.4 (b) of the Tobago House of Assembly Act.
Nevertheless, this approach is seriously flawed for the following reasons: (a) it presupposes that the archipelagic baselines can be divided up so as to allocate, attribute or otherwise appropriate some baselines or parts of some baselines and the waters they enclose as well as the seabed and subsoil and air space thereof separately to Trinidad and to Tobago; and (b) it assumes that proximity is a proper basis for allocation, attribution or appropriation of archipelagic waters and associated territorial sea and the rights associated therewith, notwithstanding the fact that the whole Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, from Charlotteville to Cedros, contributed to Trinidad and Tobago satisfying the water to land ratio of between 1 to 1 and 9 to 1 provided for in Article 47(1) of UNCLOS for the designation of archipelagic status.
Like the archipelagic baselines, the archipelagic waters and territorial sea, the sovereignty of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is not divisible and may not be shared in the way that Clause 4 of the draft Bill may unintentionally suggest.

UNCLOS, other rules of international law and the practice of States provide no support for the bifurcation of the archipelagic waters and territorial sea as proposed in the draft Bill.
Relevant International Law It is settled international law that in the archipelagic waters and territorial sea the coastal State enjoys sovereignty and may exercise rights analogous to those exercised on its land territory, subject to the right of innocent passage by ships of other States.
5 The 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) accordingly provides at Articles 2 and 49 as follows: “Article 2 Legal status of the territorial sea, of the air space over the territorial sea and of its bed and subsoil 1.

The sovereignty of a coastal State extends, beyond its land territory and internal waters and, in the case of an archipelagic State, its archipelagic waters, to an adjacent belt of sea, described as the territorial sea.

2.
2.

This sovereignty extends to the air space over the territorial sea as well as to its bed and subsoil.

3.

The sovereignty over the territorial sea is exercised subject to this Convention and to other rules of international law.

Article 49 Legal status of archipelagic waters, of the air space over archipelagic waters and of their bed and subsoil 1.
The sovereignty of an archipelagic State extends to the waters enclosed by the archipelagic baselines drawn in accordance with article 47, described as archipelagic waters, regardless of their depth or distance from the coast.

2.

This sovereignty extends to the air space over the archipelagic waters, as well as to their bed and subsoil, and the resources contained therein.

3.

This sovereignty is exercised subject to this Part.

6 4.
The regime of archipelagic sea lanes passage established in this Part shall not in other respects affect the status of the archipelagic waters, including the sea lanes, or the exercise by the archipelagic State of its sovereignty over such waters and their air space, bed and subsoil, and the resources contained therein.” Article 2 of UNCLOS unquestionably embodies both conventional and customary international law on the legal status of the territorial sea, of the air space over it and of the seabed and subsoil below it.
Similarly, Article 49 of UNCLOS, in terms wholly coincident in substance and largely coincident in language with Article 2, embodies both conventional and customary international law on the legal status of archipelagic waters, of the air space over it and of the seabed and subsoil below it.

There are no archipelagic baselines separately enclosing Trinidad and no archipelagic baselines separately enclosing Tobago.

The archipelagic baselines are indivisible.


Map 1 demonstrates the existing fact that Trinidad and Tobago together satisfies the requirement in Article 47(1) of UNCLOS for the designation of archipelagic status.

The total water area of the established archipelagic waters is approximately 7128.8 sq km versus the total land area contained within which is approximately 5181.2 sq km.

The ratio of the two works out to approximately 1.376 to 1.
On the other hand, Maps 2 and 3 demonstrate that, separately, neither Trinidad nor Tobago can satisfy the requirement in Article 47(1) for the designation of archipelagic status.

Regarding Map 2, the total water area of the possible claim of archipelagic waters for Trinidad is approximately 3282.4 sq km versus the total land area contained within which is approximately 4863.6 sq km.

The ratio of the two works out to approximately 0.675 to 1.
Regarding Map 3, the total water area of the established archipelagic waters for Tobago is approximately 125.8 sq km versus the total land area contained within which is approximately 317.6 sq km.

The ratio of the two works out to approximately 0.396 to 1.
Assuming, therefore, that it was possible to divide the archipelagic baselines between Trinidad and Tobago, on the basis of the evidence contained in Maps 1, 2 and 3, it is difficult to discern any rational basis exists for attributing, even notionally, part of the archipelagic baselines to Trinidad and part to Tobago.
There is nothing to suggest in either Article 2 or 49 that it is possible to segment or apportion the archipelagic waters or the adjacent belt of territorial sea, qua archipelagic waters and territorial sea, and the sovereignty over the archipelagic waters, territorial sea, the air space above these areas as well as the seabed and subsoil below these waters to parts of the coastal State.
Territorial sovereignty and sovereign rights in respect of the resources of the continental shelf adjacent to their coasts are attributes of coastal States themselves and not of their constituent parts.
7 The Practice of States in their Municipal Law Several federal States including, the United States of America and Canada and unitary States with special constitutional arrangements such as the United Kingdom have had to deal with demands from those political divisions of the State with coastal frontages for ownership of maritime space, or ownership of the mineral resources of the seabed and subsoil, or for equitable sharing of the revenue generated by the development of the mineral resources, particularly, hydrocarbons, of the Continental Shelf.
United States of America In the United States pursuant to the Submerged Lands Act passed by Congress in 1953, the seaward extent of the jurisdiction of the littoral states of the Federation are as follows:  Texas and the Gulf coast of Florida are extended 3 marine leagues (9 nautical miles) seaward from the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial sea is measured.

 Louisiana is extended 3 U.S. nautical miles seaward of the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial sea is measured.
 All other States' seaward limits are extended 3 International Nautical Miles seaward of the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial sea is measured.1 Although power over navigation, commerce and international affairs was specifically retained by the United States under the Act, the grant to the states was quite broad, including the mineral, fishery and plant resources of the seabed and water column.
When in 1976 Congress passed the Fishery Conservation and Management Act which extended United States fisheries management jurisdiction to 200 miles seaward of the territorial sea baselines, state control over the fishery within the three mile zone was retained.
The states continue to manage fisheries in the territorial sea subject to constitutional restraints, pre-emption by inconsistent federal law, and the possibility of federal override of state jurisdiction by the Secretary of Commerce in the case of fish stocks found predominantly within the 197-mile zone seaward of state jurisdiction.2 Canada In Canada the Courts have consistently ruled that sovereignty of the territorial sea was vested in the State and not the provinces, unless the constitutional and historical record of the province indicated that a different outcome was legally merited.
1 U.S. nautical mile = 6080.2 feet; International nautical mile = 6076.10333 feet.

2 Thomas J. Schoenbaum & Frank Parker Jr., Federalism in the Coastal Zone: Three Models of State Jurisdiction and Control, 57 N.C. L. Rev.

231 (1979).
231 (1979).

8 In Newfoundland and Labrador given its peculiar constitutional position when it joined the Union in 1949, the provincial Court of Appeal held that the province exercises jurisdiction from the low-water mark on the coast to three (3) miles offshore; jurisdiction from three (3) to twelve (12) miles rests with Canada.

The Court of Appeal decided in favour of Canada in respect of rights available on the continental shelf.
In the Hibernia Reference, the British Columbia Reference and the Newfoundland Reference3, the Supreme Court of Canada has decided in favour of Canada with respect to continental shelf rights.
The Court has held for a province to sustain a claim to continental shelf rights, there would need to be clear evidence from the constitutional or historical records that the province had been in a position to acquire, and had acquired extra-territorial rights of a nature that allowed it to claim jurisdiction over the Continental Shelf.
The main jurisdictional disputes over rights to the continental shelf ended in 1985 when the Government of Canada entered into joint management and revenue-sharing agreements with the provinces in respect of the hydrocarbon resources of the Continental Shelf.

The provinces will be entitled to collect revenues from continental shelf operations as if the resources were located on land.
United Kingdom In 2010 it was estimated that the Scottish share of total oil production in the United Kingdom Continental Shelf was more than 95% while for gas it was 58%.

The Scottish share of total hydrocarbon production (including natural gas liquids) was 80%.

The Scottish share of tax revenues generated from the oil and gas industry exceeded 90%.

This reflected the much higher value of oil compared to gas.
It was estimated in 2010 that if Scotland were to obtain a "geographical share" of revenues based on the median line, about 90% of the United Kingdom's oil resources would be under Scottish jurisdiction.

Notwithstanding its dominant contribution to hydrocarbon production in the United Kingdom, as part of the unitary State, Scotland receives a per capita share of the revenues accruing to the Government from the production of oil and gas in the North Sea.
Revenue sharing The draft Bill does contemplate equitable revenue sharing from the mineral resources of Trinidad and Tobago’s Continental Shelf.

Presumably, the request for revenue sharing would apply as well to the Extended Continental Shelf in respect of which the United Nations Commission on the Limits of the 3 Ian Townsend Gault, Jurisdiction over the Petroleum Resources of the Canadian Continental Shelf: The Emerging Picture, XXIII No.

1 Alberta L. Rev.
1 Alberta L. Rev.

75 (1985) 9 Continental Shelf (CLCS) now has for consideration a submission from Trinidad and Tobago made in 2009 to extend the State’s continental shelf jurisdiction beyond 200 nautical miles from the territorial sea baselines.

To the extent that the draft Bill seeks to define Tobago by reference to the archipelagic waters and the territorial sea, it may also contemplate ownership of the mineral resources located within the waters of Tobago as defined.
For the reasons already adumbrated, such a claim would be technically fraught and could give rise to some foreseeable constitutional difficulties, including on equal treatment grounds.

The revenue-sharing provisions addressed later in the draft Bill would avoid this potential constitutional hurdle.
In any event, from a practical standpoint, it is worth considering whether advancement of such a claim would be a worthy issue for negotiation and compromise, especially when regard is had to the fact that the geology and geomorphology of the seabed and subsoil of the area near to Tobago suggests that the prospects of finding hydrocarbons in commercial quantities within the territorial sea so close to the shores of Tobago may not be particularly promising.
Being geographically the most easterly and therefore the most seaward part of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, Tobago contributes to the unitary State by permitting Trinidad and Tobago to project its claim to the Continental Shelf and the Extended Continental Shelf appertaining to its landmass much deeper into the Atlantic Ocean than would be the case if Tobago did not exist or was not part of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
Accordingly, a strengthening of the draft provisions on revenue- sharing from the resources of the Continental Shelf located in deeper waters, including the resources of the Extended Continental Shelf, is likely to yield a greater return to Tobago than an arguably misplaced focus on the prospects of ownership or even revenue-sharing from the hydrocarbon resources of the subsoil of the territorial sea.
Such strengthening could conceivably include provisions for the deposit of a percentage of revenue earned from deep water development of hydrocarbons into a recast Tobago Development Fund in which political control is lessened and citizen involvement is magnified.
Since the national budget currently is based in part on revenues received from the development of the hydrocarbon resources of the Continental Shelf and Tobago presently receives a share of the budget based on the recommendation of the Dispute Resolution Commission, if a formula is devised to permit the deposit of a share of the revenue from the development of the resources of the Continental Shelf and Extended Continental Shelf into the Tobago Development Fund, such a formula would need to avoid Tobago being seen to dip twice into the same revenue stream.
10 Definition of Trinidad and Tobago Section 1(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago provides as follows: “Trinidad and Tobago shall comprise the Island of Trinidad, the Island of Tobago and any territories that immediately before the 31st day of August 1962 were dependencies of Trinidad and Tobago, including the seabed and subsoil situated beneath the territorial sea and the continental shelf of Trinidad and Tobago (“territorial sea” and “continental shelf ” here having the same meaning as in the Territorial Sea Act and the Continental Shelf Act, respectively), together with such other areas as may be declared by Act to form part of the territory of Trinidad and Tobago.” The opportunity should be taken to amend this sub-section of the Constitution to introduce the concept of archipelagic waters before mention is made of the territorial sea.
The definition of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago used in current Double Taxation and Air Services Agreements may be adopted or adapted for this purpose.
The envisaged spatial extent of the Tobago Maritime Zone Assuming that the stated defects did not impair the definitions of Trinidad and Tobago in Clauses 4(4) and 4(5) of the draft Bill, the mere attribution of part of the archipelagic waters and territorial sea to Trinidad and part to Tobago, without more, might lead to the impression that, subject to the right of innocent passage by other States, these two constituent parts of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago would enjoy in their respective maritime areas, sovereignty over the waters, the living resources of the water column, the non-living resources of the seabed and subsoil, and the air space above these areas.
If, rather, it is intended that Parliament would confer certain limited, shared or negotiated rights on the Tobago Legislature and the TIG, in the context of a purely domestic arrangement between the Tobago House of Assembly and the Central Government of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, then the definition of the Island of Tobago and the Island of Trinidad as proposed in the draft Bill is not necessary.
Of course, the indivisibility of both the archipelagic waters and the territorial sea appertaining to the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago as well as the sovereignty which the coastal State enjoys in these maritime areas does not mean that the State is unable, as part of a purely domestic arrangement, to confer certain powers and responsibilities on constituent parts of the coastal State.
Bearing in mind that Trinidad and Tobago’s rights in respect of the territorial sea, archipelagic waters and Continental Shelf arise not from domestic law but from its legal basis of title under international law, the State is free to confer powers and responsibilities on its political divisions, while respecting the international obligations that it is tasked with fulfilling on the international plane.
11 Whether a delimitation of the maritime space between Trinidad and Tobago would be necessary or desirable would depend, in part, on: (a) the powers and responsibilities which are to be conferred on the Tobago Legislature and the TIG; (b) the powers and responsibilities which would continue to reside with the Central Government in relation to Tobago; and (c) the arrangements proposed in the draft Bill for enhanced sharing of revenue derived from the development of the hydrocarbon resources of the continental shelf and extended continental shelf.
It would in the circumstances be sufficient to delineate or demarcate an area around Tobago that is up to eleven (11) miles from the low-water mark on the coast of Tobago.

Eleven miles is suggested as the upper limit for delineation of the Tobago Maritime Zone because anything in excess of 11 miles would involve a delimitation of the maritime space off the north east tip of Trinidad and the south west coast of Tobago.
In any event, a Tobago Maritime Zone drawn from the low-water mark could result in a larger maritime area falling under the jurisdiction of the Tobago Legislature and the TIG than would have been possible from the application of a s.4 (b) of the Tobago House of Assembly Act, assuming that the provision could have been operationalised if it had been amended to cure the deficiency posed by the absence of any straight baselines off Tobago’s west coast.
The powers and responsibilities exercisable by the TIG in the proposed Tobago Maritime Zone It is recognised that the powers and responsibilities of the Tobago Legislature and the TIG would be subject to the stated residual powers and responsibilities of the Central Government in Tobago.
Likewise, the jurisdiction conferred in respect of the Tobago Maritime Zone would need to be subject to: (a) applicable constitutional restraints; (b) pre-emption by inconsistent laws of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago; and (c) the possibility of Central Government override of Tobago jurisdiction in the case of fish stocks found in the EEZ predominantly outside of the Tobago Maritime Zone or which are subject to international rules and regulations binding on the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
12 Conclusion: The Republic of Trinidad and Tobago as a whole contributed to Trinidad and Tobago being able to satisfy the formula for drawing archipelagic baselines in accordance with Article 47(1) of UNCLOS.

The archipelagic baselines are therefore indivisible.
It is not necessary to distinguish between the various maritime zones - archipelagic waters, territorial sea, EEZ and Continental Shelf – appertaining to Trinidad and Tobago under international law when conferring powers and responsibilities on political divisions of the State, provided it is recognised that, subject to the right of innocent passage, rights of the coastal State in the archipelagic waters and territorial sea are analogous to the rights on land, but the rights in the EEZ and Continental Shelf include sovereign rights in respect of the natural resources which do not extend to sovereignty over these two maritime zones.
The equidistant line provision in Clause 4 of the draft Bill is undesirable because it is designed to bifurcate the archipelagic waters and territorial sea and to attribute part of these maritime zones, over which the State is sovereign under international law and domestic law, to Trinidad and to Tobago, respectively.
It is also unnecessary because a similar outcome can be secured by a maritime zone established seaward of the low-water mark off Tobago, without reference either to archipelagic waters or the territorial sea and without recourse to maritime delimitation between the island of Trinidad and the island of Tobago.

Gerald Thompson Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary (Ret.)
25th January, 2018 13 14 15 16 APPENDIX VII OPINION OF JUSTICE ANTHONY LUCKY 1 APPENDIX VII 25 January 2018 Opinion from Justice Anthony Lucky The Draft Tobago House of Assembly Bill 2018.

I have not seen the current draft Bill, based on the discussions at the meeting with the Hon, Minister on 22 January 2018, I have the following comments I agree with the Hon.
Minister that this is a complex exercise and I respectfully add, moreso, because of the fact that Trinidad and Tobago is a party to several International Conventions and Treaties, most of which form part of the laws of Trinidad and Tobago.
For example: the United Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea (the Convention) from which the relevant articles of the Trinidad and Tobago Acts relating to the Law of the Sea are based: The Territorial Sea Act, the Continental Shelf Act, the Archipelagic Waters and Exclusive Economic Zone Act .

It must be noted that the foregoing Act came into force in Trinidad and Tobago on 11 November 1986.
It must be noted that in all the relevant laws relating to the law of the sea, “Trinidad and Tobago” is defined as one political entity .In other words as one unified Country/State.

Therefore, it seems to me that if the islands are separated by way of definition several issues will arise in current national laws and international Conventions, protocols and treaties in which Trinidad and Tobago is a party.
In this opinion I will consider what I am informed of the proposed draft Bill in the context of the Law relating to the Law of the sea, national and international.

I am not in favour of the repeal of Section 1 of the Constitution.

I am satisfied with the definition specified in section 1 and 2 of the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago.
Providing a definition of the islands separately could lead to further drafting consequences to other Acts for example the Territorial Sea Act, the Continental Sea Act and the Archipelagic Waters and Exclusive Economic Zone Act where the political entity of Trinidad and Tobago is set out in the Constitution.

The foregoing Acts are in conformity with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.
Trinidad and Tobago is an Archipelagic State (Section 3 of the Archipelagic Waters and Exclusive Economic Zone Act) as defined in the Act.

Article 46 of the Convention provides for Archipelagic States.

Since the coming into force of the Convention, the provisions relating Archipelagic States are set out.

Therefore, to contend that the Territorial Sea Act supersedes the Archipelagic Waters and Exclusive Economic Zone Act is not accurate.

The provisions complement each other and must be read together.
2 Section 2 Article 3 of the Convention provides that the territorial sea of a State is 12 miles and the breath of the Territorial Sea is measured from the baselines set out in the archipelagic maps appended and forming part of the Act.
Respectfully, Mr. Thompson’s submission that the baseline for Tobago begins at the low tide elevation cannot be correct because Trinidad and Tobago is an Archipelagic State, (See the Schedule of the Act).The question is: where are the “so called “base lines of the island of Tobago from where a line for the purpose of demarcation begins.

In my view such an exercise will be difficult.


The Ambassador contends that the regime of the Archipelagic State came in to being long after the regime of the territorial sea.

I cannot agree.

The Convention of which Trinidad and Tobago is a member came into force in 1982.

Further, the 1982 Convention revised and repealed the 1958 Convention on the Law of the sea.

I repeat the National Acts including the Archipelagic Act are based upon and are in accordance with the provisions of the Convention.
I had suggested a division of the waters between the two islands because of the status of the waters within the archipelago of the islands.

However, as I alluded to above, Ambassador Thompson does not agree and adheres to the concept that the law relating to the territorial sea existed long before the law relating to archipelagic States, and that the regime of the archipelagic state came into effect after the territorial sea principles set out in the Convention and in the Trinidad and Tobago Act.
This cannot be correct.

The Convention provides for the regime of the Territorial Sea (Part II of the Convention) and Archipelagic States (See Part IV, specifically Article 46 of the Convention).Both regimes in the Convention complement each other.
In order to fortify my contention vis a vis Ambassador Thompson’s and Dr. Potts’s interventions I refer to the following sections of the Territorial sea Act and the Archipelagic Waters and Exclusive Economic Zone Acts: Section 3 of the Territorial Sea Act provides: 3.
The territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago comprises those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the base-lines defined in section 5 and as their outer limits, a line measured seaward from that baseline, every point of which is distant twelve nautical miles from the nearest point of the baseline so, however, that where the outer limits of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago intersect foreign territorial waters the outer limits thereof shall be resolved through agreements or other means recognised by international law.
4.

(1) the internal waters of Trinidad and Tobago shall include any areas of sea within its archipelagic waters that are on the landward side of the closing lines.
3 Part II Archipelagic State See Appendix 1 Section 2 of the Archipelagic Waters and Exclusive Economic Zone Act specifies that: “Archipelagic State” means the political entity of Trinidad and Tobago comprising that group of islands including parts of islands inter-connecting waters and other natural features which are so closely interrelated that they form an intrinsic geographical and economic entity.

3.

The Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is declared and Archipelagic State.

(Appendix 1) 4.
(Appendix 1) 4.

The archipelagic waters of Trinidad and Tobago shall include any areas of sea that are enclosed by the archipelagic lines drawn in accordance with section 6.

5 The sovereignty of Trinidad and Tobago as an archipelagic state extends to— (a) the archipelagic waters regardless of their depth or distance from the coast; and (b) the airspace over the archipelagic waters as well as their bed and the subsoil and resources both living and non-living contained therein.
Section 6 provides for the archipelagic baselines.

Section 3 is worth mentioning it reads: (1) The archipelagic baselines of Trinidad and Tobago shall consist of straight baselines joining the outermost points of the outermost islands and drying reefs of the archipelago.
(2) The baselines drawn in accordance with this section shall be shown on charts of a scale or scales adequate for ascertaining their position, or alternatively lists of geographical co-ordinates of points, specifying the geodetic datum may be substituted.
(3) The Minister shall give due publicity to such charts or lists of geographical co- ordinates by Notice in the Gazette, and shall cause such copy of each chart to be deposited with the Secretary General of the United Nations Trinidad and Tobago has complied with the requirements of section 6.

Section 7 of the said Act is important.

I referred to same during my intervention at the Meeting of 22 January.

It reads: 4 7.
It reads: 4 7.

The breath of the territorial sea, the contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone and the continental shelf shall be measured from archipelagic baselines drawn in accordance with section 6.

I have to emphasise as I do throughout this paper that the definition of Trinidad and Tobago as set out in the Constitution should not be repealed and replaced with a draft defining each island.
If section 1 of the Constitution is repealed and replaced with the draft, I have briefly seen then there must be consequential amendments to several Acts where the political entity of the republic of Trinidad and Tobago is treated as one State.

If I see the draft Bill I should be able to provide more substantial reasons why the clauses to which I referred to in general terms, if, accepted can create more problems than we initially envisage.
Nevertheless, it would be convenient to set out Article 50 of the Convention which deals with delimitation of archipelagic waters, because it supports my view that the archipelagic waters between the islands of Trinidad and Tobago can be divided.

The article reads: Article 50 Delimitation of internal waters Within its archipelagic waters, the archipelagic State may draw closing lines for the delimitation of internal waters, in accordance with articles 9, 10 and 11.

It is my view that we must get it right.


We must ensure that the draft Bill is consistent and in conformity with the Law.

It must be noted that in all the laws relating to the Law of the Sea “Trinidad and Tobago “is recognised as a unitary State.
If the THA decides to pass legislation relating to the Territorial Sea, the Exclusive Economic Zone (the EEZ),the Contiguous Zone and Continental Shelf, as well as Environmental Laws;;then, such laws cannot be inconsistent with the extant law of Trinidad and Tobago.

If the Islands are separated by definition by repealing section 1 and 2 of the Constitution and substituting the definition I briefly saw in the draft Bill, then, the relevant Acts will have to be amended.

Anthony A.

Lucky.
Anthony A.

Lucky.

Appendix 5 APPENDIX VIII LIST OF UNICAMERAL LEGISLATURES Parliament Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Parliamentary Complex Cabildo Building St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain JSC – Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 UNICAMERAL LEGISLATURES AROUND THE WORLD APPENDIX VIII A.
NATIONAL LEGISLATURES FEDERAL STATES  Assembly of the Union of the Comoros  Council of Representatives of Iraq  Congress of the Federated States of Micronesia  National Assembly of Saint Kitts and Nevis  Federal National Council of the United Arab Emirates  National Assembly of Venezuela UNITARY STATES AFRICA (30)  National Assembly of Angola  National Assembly of Benin  National Assembly of Botswana  National Assembly of Burkina Faso  National Assembly of Cabe Verde  National Assembly of the Central African Republic  National Assembly of Chad  National Assembly of Djibouti  National Assembly of Eritrea  National Assembly of the Gambia  Parliament of Ghana  National Assembly of Guinea  People's National Assembly of Guinea-Bissau  House of Representatives of Libya  National Assembly of Malawi AMERICAS (14)  Legislative Assembly of Costa Rica  People’s Majlis of the Maldives  National Assembly of Mali  National Assembly of Mauritania  National Assembly of Mauritius  Assembly of the Republic of Mozambique  National Assembly of Niger  National Assembly of São Tomé and Príncipe  National Assembly of Senegal  National Assembly of Seychelles  Parliament of Sierra Leone  National Assembly of Tanzania  National Assembly of Togo  National Assembly of Tunisia  Parliament of Uganda  National Assembly of Zambia Page 1 of 6 Parliament Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Parliamentary Complex Cabildo Building St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain JSC – Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020  National Assembly of People's Power of Cuba  House of Assembly of Dominica  National Assembly of Ecuador  Legislative Assembly of El Salvador  Congress of the Republic of Guatemala  National Assembly of Guyana ASIA (21)  House of the Nation (Jatiya Sangsad) of Bangladesh  Legislative Council of Brunei  National People's Congress of the People's Republic of China1  National Parliament of Timor-  Leste Islamic Consultative Assembly of Iran  Parliament (Knesset) of Israel  Supreme
 People's Assembly of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea  National Assembly of the Republic of Korea  National Assembly of Kuwait EUROPE (30)  National Congress of Honduras  National Assembly of Nicaragua  National Assembly of Panama  Congress of the Republic of Peru  National Assembly of Saint Kitts and Nevis  House of Assembly of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines  National Assembly of Suriname  Supreme Council of Kyrgyzstan  National Assembly of Laos  National Assembly of Lebanon  State Great Hural of Mongolia  Legislative Council of the State of Palestine  Advisory Council of Qatar  Consultative Council of Saudi Arabia  Parliament of Singapore  Parliament of Sri Lanka  People’s Assembly of Syria  National Assembly of Turkmenistan  National Assembly of Vietnam  National Assembly of Albania  National Assembly of Armenia  National Assembly of Azerbaijan  National Assembly of Bulgaria 1 Note: The Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference which is effectively an advisory "upper house".
Page 2 of 6 Parliament Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Parliamentary Complex Cabildo Building St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain JSC – Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020  National Assembly (Hrvatski Sabor) of Croatia  People’s Assembly (Folketing) of Denmark  Parliament (Riigikogu) of Estonia  Parliament of Finland  Parliament of Georgia  Parliament of Greece  National Assembly of Hungary  Parliament (Althingi) of Iceland  Parliament (Saeima) of Latvia  Parliament (Landtag) of Liechtenstein  Parliament of Lithuania  Chamber of Deputies of Luxembourg  House of Representatives of Malta  Parliament of Moldova OCEANIA (9)  Parliament of Fiji  House of Assembly of Kiribati  Parliament of Nauru  House of Representatives of New Zealand  National Council of Monaco  Parliament of Montenegro  Assembly of North Macedonia  Parliament (Storting) of Norway  Assembly of the Republic of Portugal  Grand and General Council of San Marino  National Assembly of Serbia  National Council of Slovakia  Parliament (Riksdag) of Sweden  Grand National Assembly of Turkey  Supreme Council (Verkhovna Radna) of Ukraine  Pontifical Commission for Vatican City State  National Parliament of Papua New Guinea  Legislative Assembly of Samoa  Legislative Assembly of Tonga  Parliament of Tuvalu  Parliament of Vanuatu B. TERRITORIAL LEGISLATURES British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies  House of Assembly of Anguilla  House of Assembly of the British Virgin Islands  Legislative Assembly of the Cayman Islands  Legislative Assembly of the Falkland Islands  Parliament of Gibraltar Page 3 of 6 Parliament Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Parliamentary Complex Cabildo Building St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain JSC – Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020  States of Deliberation of Guernsey  Assembly of Jersey  Legislative Assembly of Montserrat   Legislative Council of Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha  House of Assembly of the Turks and Caicos
 Islands Island Council of the Pitcairn Islands Danish Overseas Territories  Parliament of Greenland  Parliament (Løgting) of the Faroe Islands Chinese Special Administrative Regions  Legislative Council of Hong Kong  Legislative Assembly of Macau New Zealand Overseas Territories  Parliament of the Cook Islands  Assembly of Niue  Assembly of Tokelau Norwegian Overseas Territories  Longyearbyen Community Council of Svalbard US Overseas Territories  Legislature of Guam  Legislature of the U.S. Virgin Islands C. STATES WITH LIMITED RECOGNITION  People's Assembly of Abkhazia  National Assembly of the Republic of Artsakh  Assembly of Kosovo  Assembly of the Republic of Northern Cyprus Page 4 of 6 Parliament Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Parliamentary Complex Cabildo Building St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain JSC – Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020  National Council of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic  Parliament of South Ossetia  Legislative Yuan of Taiwan  Supreme Council of Transnistria D. SUBNATIONAL LEGISLATURES FEDERATIONS  All legislatures and legislative councils of the regions and communities of Belgium  All legislative assemblies in all states of Brazil  All legislatures of the provinces and territories of Canada  All parliaments of the Länder (states) in Germany  All legislative assemblies of the states of Malaysia  All legislatures in all states of Mexico  All legislatures of the provinces in Nepal  All legislatures of the provinces and territories in Pakistan  The legislature of the state of Nebraska, and council of the District of Columbia in the United States  Parliament of the State of Queensland and the legislative assemblies of the internal territories of Australia (but not the other states)  Provincial legislatures of South Africa  Legislatures of fifteen (15) of the provinces of Argentina – Chaco, Chubut, Córdoba, Formosa, Jujuy, La Pampa, La Rioja, Misiones, Neuquén, Río Negro, San Juan,
 Santa Cruz, Santiago del Estero, Tierra del Fuego, Tucumán – and of the autonomous city of Buenos Aires.
 Legislatures of twenty-two (22) of the states of India – Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Chhattisgarh, Goa, Gujarat, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jharkhand, Kerala, Madhya Pradesh, Manipur, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Odisha, Punjab, Rajasthan, Sikkim, Tamil Nadu, Tripura, Uttarakhand and West Bengal; and 3 of the union territories – Delhi, Jammu and Kashmir and Puducherry.
DEVOLVED GOVERNMENTS  Iraqi Kurdistan Parliament  Northern Ireland Assembly Page 5 of 6 Parliament Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Parliamentary Complex Cabildo Building St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain JSC – Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020  Scottish Parliament  Welsh Parliament (Senedd)  Parliaments of the autonomous communities of Spain  All Regional Councils of France  Bangsamoro Parliament (Philippines) OTHER  Local People's Congresses of all levels of provinces, regions and municipalities of the People's Republic of China  Palestinian National Council Page 6 of 6 APPENDIX IX RESULTS OF ONLINE SURVEY JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q1 Where do you ordinarily reside?
Answered: 192 Skipped: 3 Trinidad Trinidad Trinidad Trinidad Trinidad ANSWER CHOICES Tobago Trinidad TOTAL Tobago Tobago Tobago Tobago Tobago RESPONSES 66.15% 33.85% 127 65 192 1 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q2 Did you view the Committee’s video on its work to date?
Answered: 191 Skipped: 4 NoNoNoNoNo ANSWER CHOICES Yes No TOTAL YesYesYesYesYes RESPONSES 60.73% 39.27% 116 75 191 2 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q3 If No, please click the link to watch the video The Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Answered: 178 Skipped: 17 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Viewed TOTAL Viewed RESPONSES 100.00% 178 178 3 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q4 Do you agree with the proposal to grant internal self-government to Tobago?
Answered: 194 Skipped: 1 NoNoNoNoNo ANSWER CHOICES Yes No TOTAL YesYesYesYesYes RESPONSES 76.80% 23.20% 149 45 194 4 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q5 In the following section, you are asked to indicate whether you agree with specific proposals contained in the Committees’ draft bills.Bill No.
1, Clauses 4 and 5 (the preamble and equality of status) Answered: 192 Skipped: 3 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 45.83% 30.73% 10.42% 6.77% 6.25% 88 59 20 13 12 192 5 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q6 Bill No.
1, Clauses 8 and 10 (power to make laws) Answered: 194 Skipped: 1 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 46.91% 26.29% 8.76% 5.15% 12.89% 91 51 17 10 25 194 6 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q7 Bill No.
1, Clauses 11 and 12 (executive powers) Answered: 193 Skipped: 2 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 46.63% 31.61% 6.22% 4.66% 10.88% 90 61 12 9 21 193 7 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q8 Bill No.
1, Clauses 13 and 14 (duty to keep the President informed) Answered: 193 Skipped: 2 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 71.50% 14.51% 6.74% 3.11% 4.15% 138 28 13 6 8 193 8 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q9 Bill No.
1, Clauses 15 and 17 (Tobago division of the Service Commissions) Answered: 193 Skipped: 2 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 52.33% 24.35% 6.74% 5.18% 11.40% 101 47 13 10 22 193 9 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q10 Bill No.
1, Clause 18 (the Tobago Legislature) Answered: 194 Skipped: 1 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 52.06% 24.74% 8.76% 5.15% 9.28% 101 48 17 10 18 194 10 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q11 Bill No.
1, Clause 18 (the composition of the House of Assembly) Answered: 194 Skipped: 1 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 46.39% 29.38% 7.73% 6.70% 9.79% 90 57 15 13 19 194 11 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q12 Bill No.
1, Schedules 4 and 6 Answered: 191 Skipped: 4 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 30.89% 37.17% 17.28% 4.19% 10.47% 59 71 33 8 20 191 12 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q13 Bill No.
2, Clauses 7 to 13 (arrangements related to the Legislature) Answered: 193 Skipped: 2 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 43.52% 30.57% 10.88% 6.22% 8.81% 84 59 21 12 17 193 13 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q14 Bill No.
2, Clauses 14 to 16 (the establishment of oversight committees) Answered: 193 Skipped: 2 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 61.66% 20.73% 7.25% 3.11% 7.25% 119 40 14 6 14 193 14 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q15 Bill No.
2, Clause 22 (Tobago allocation) Answered: 193 Skipped: 2 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 40.93% 30.05% 10.36% 4.66% 13.99% 79 58 20 9 27 193 15 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q16 Bill No.
2, Clause 23 (the fiscal review commission) Answered: 194 Skipped: 1 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 55.67% 21.65% 7.73% 4.12% 10.82% 108 42 15 8 21 194 16 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q17 Bill No.
2, Clauses 25 (the Tobago Appropriation Bill) Answered: 194 Skipped: 1 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 48.97% 24.74% 11.86% 5.15% 9.28% 95 48 23 10 18 194 17 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q18 Bill No.
2, Clauses 26 (the Tobago contingency fund) Answered: 193 Skipped: 2 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 57.51% 20.21% 8.81% 4.66% 8.81% 111 39 17 9 17 193 18 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q19 Bill No.
2, Clause 28 (the power to borrow) Answered: 194 Skipped: 1 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 38.66% 31.96% 10.31% 7.22% 11.86% 75 62 20 14 23 194 19 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q20 Bill No.
2, Clause 29 (the power to invest) Answered: 194 Skipped: 1 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 54.12% 23.71% 10.82% 3.09% 8.25% 105 46 21 6 16 194 20 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q21 Bill No.
2, Clause 30 (the financial rules) Answered: 194 Skipped: 1 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all TOTAL Completely Agree Somewhat Neutral Very Little Not at all RESPONSES 54.12% 25.26% 9.79% 3.61% 7.22% 105 49 19 7 14 194 21 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q22 Should you so desire, you can send in written submissions to the Committee at the address posted on the WebsiteWould you be also making a written submission?
Answered: 194 Skipped: 1 100% 80% 60% 40% 20% 0% ANSWER CHOICES Yes No TOTAL Yes No RESPONSES 13.40% 86.60% 26 168 194 22 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q23 If yes, please provide your name and phone number and/or email address Answered: 45 Skipped: 150 ANSWER CHOICES Name Phone Email RESPONSES 95.56% 84.44% 91.11% 43 38 41 # 26 27 NAME anthony moore Bernadette Solomon -Koroma JULIET JAMES Sean Powder Ann Second Raylene Lindsay Morten Kern Grant Anson Isaac Cindy Hackett Ryan Allard Damika Marshall Nelson Allan Gittens Peter Burke Gary Melville Kyomie Williams n/a Huey N Cadette Tichina Virgil Camille Richards Keilon Baptiste Rachel Wilson Gale Mohammed-Oxley Tricia McNeil-Beckles Moses Thomas G 23 / 27 DATE 5/1/2021 7:02 PM 4/30/2021 5:22 PM 4/30/2021 4:00 PM 4/29/2021 10:01 PM 4/28/2021 5:45 PM 4/28/2021 8:04 AM 4/27/2021 11:35 PM 4/27/2021 9:26 PM 4/27/2021 10:34 AM 4/25/2021 6:40 PM 4/25/2021 1:44 AM 4/24/2021 1:24 PM 4/24/2021 2:52 AM 4/23/2021 10:03 PM 4/22/2021 8:12 AM 4/22/2021 6:56 AM 4/21/2021 8:31 PM 4/20/2021 11:00 PM 4/20/2021 8:30 PM 4/20/2021 8:05 PM 4/20/2021 3:20 PM 4/20/2021 1:21 PM 4/20/2021 10:21 AM 4/20/2021 10:17 AM 4/20/2021 9:05 AM 4/20/2021 8:28 AM 4/20/2021 6:15 AM JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 # Kevern Phillips Keeyan charles Juliet Davidson-Plaza N/A Kori Sinanan N/A Christina Winchester Josanna Allen Sparkle Solomon Gernie Andrews Rennie Lakhan Raye Sandy Dale Arthur Na Kern Cowan Tameira Norton PHONE (868) 305-1280 8686863977 1868-729-3930 8684742200 +18683935206 7923050 18683204775 18683821613 768-2004 8687235205 3474098850 336-hy 4672810 +18686820058 n/a 8686814839 4698237 3314568 18682937983 18683564588 868 4825601 24 / 27 4/20/2021 6:14 AM 4/19/2021 10:46 PM 4/19/2021 10:45 PM 4/19/2021 9:56 PM 4/19/2021 9:48 PM 4/19/2021 9:30 PM 4/19/2021 8:57 PM 4/19/2021 8:45 PM 4/19/2021
 8:43 PM 4/19/2021 8:42 PM 4/19/2021 8:12 PM 4/19/2021 5:41 PM 4/19/2021 4:11 PM 4/19/2021 2:57 PM 4/19/2021 2:17 PM 4/19/2021 1:05 PM DATE 5/1/2021 7:02 PM 4/30/2021 5:22 PM 4/30/2021 4:00 PM 4/28/2021 5:45 PM 4/28/2021 8:04 AM 4/27/2021 11:35 PM 4/27/2021 9:26 PM 4/27/2021 10:34 AM 4/25/2021 6:40 PM 4/24/2021 1:24 PM 4/24/2021 2:52 AM 4/23/2021 10:03 PM 4/22/2021 8:12 AM 4/22/2021 6:56 AM 4/20/2021 11:00 PM 4/20/2021 8:30 PM 4/20/2021 8:05 PM 4/20/2021 3:20 PM 4/20/2021 1:21 PM 4/20/2021 10:21 AM 4/20/2021 10:17 AM JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 # 7373717 330-7951 4808232 728-1075 7800870 382 1262 N/A 18687571669 8687461098 3281997 868 766 3166 357-6999 708-1752 391-2631 Na 8684680011 07305688441 EMAIL ynotmore2002@hotmail.com bs.koroma@gov.tt jirjames@gmail.com seanpowder@gmail.com Kedas@outlook.com msannsec@yahoo.com rlindsay1971@aol.com Morten@onlinetobago.com kerngrant1@gmail.com anson_isaac@hotmail.com cinkett@yahoo.com ryan.f.allard@gmail.com ddnmarshall@hotmail.com nelsonob4@yahoo.com allan_gittens@yahoo.com pburkie2@yahoo.com melomelville@yahoo.com Kyomiewilliams1@gmail.com N/a hueyncadette@gmail.com 25 / 27 4/20/2021 9:05 AM 4/20/2021 8:28 AM 4/20/2021 6:14 AM 4/19/2021 10:45 PM 4/19/2021 9:48 PM 4/19/2021 9:48 PM 4/19/2021 9:30 PM 4/19/2021 8:57 PM 4/19/2021 8:45 PM 4/19/2021 8:43 PM 4/19/2021 8:42 PM 4/19/2021 8:12 PM 4/19/2021 5:41 PM 4/19/2021 4:11 PM 4/19/2021 2:57 PM 4/19/2021 2:17 PM 4/19/2021 1:05 PM DATE 5/1/2021 7:02 PM 4/30/2021 5:22 PM 4/30/2021 4:00 PM 4/29/2021 10:01 PM 4/29/2021 4:25 PM 4/28/2021 5:45 PM 4/28/2021 8:04 AM 4/27/2021 11:35 PM 4/27/2021 9:26 PM 4/27/2021 10:34 AM 4/25/2021 6:40 PM 4/25/2021 1:44 AM 4/24/2021 1:24 PM 4/24/2021 2:52 AM 4/23/2021 10:03 PM 4/22/2021 8:12 AM 4/22/2021 6:56 AM 4/21/2021 8:31 PM 4/20/2021 11:00 PM 4/20/2021 8:30 PM JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) 26 27
 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 shenellevirgil@gmail.com richardscamille661@gmail.com shackelbaptiste@gmail.com rachelaugustine1979@gmail.com shvagov@gmail.com mcneiltricia@hotmail.com mosesorlandothomas@gmail.com kevernpelper@gmail.com Julieplaz@yahoo.com ksinanan@hotmail.com N/A Christinawinchester05@gmail.com merriasantana@gmail.com sparkleslmn649@gmail.com biglime2@hotmail.com rennielakhan@rocketmail.com rayesandy@yahoo.com DalefArthur@gmail.com No kerncowan@hotmail.com tameiranorton@gmail.com 4/20/2021 8:05 PM 4/20/2021 3:20 PM 4/20/2021 1:21 PM 4/20/2021 10:21 AM 4/20/2021 10:17 AM 4/20/2021 9:05 AM 4/20/2021 8:28 AM 4/20/2021 6:14 AM 4/19/2021 10:45 PM 4/19/2021 9:48 PM 4/19/2021 9:30 PM 4/19/2021 8:57 PM 4/19/2021 8:45 PM 4/19/2021 8:43 PM 4/19/2021 8:42 PM 4/19/2021 8:12 PM 4/19/2021 5:41 PM 4/19/2021 4:11 PM 4/19/2021 2:57 PM 4/19/2021 2:17 PM 4/19/2021 1:05 PM 26 / 27 JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE (TOBAGO SELF GOVERNMENT) Q24 1.
Please identify the specific area to be addressed in your submission.

You can identify more than one.

Answered: 82 Skipped: 113 Power to make laws Executive powers The Service Commissions The Tobago Legislature Schedules 4 and 5 The system of oversight...
The ﬁnancial provisions 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100% ANSWER CHOICES Power to make laws Executive powers The Service Commissions The Tobago Legislature Schedules 4 and 5 The system of oversight Committees The financial provisions Total Respondents: 82 RESPONSES 51.22% 50.00% 43.90% 53.66% 37.80% 41.46% 53.66% 42 41 36 44 31 34 44 27 / 27 APPENDIX X MINORITY REPORT MINORITY REPORT APPENDIX A Dinesh Rambally, MP Member for Chaguanas West 30 t h March, 2021.
The Secretary, Joint Select Committee Constitution (Amendment)( Tobago Self -Government) Bill 2020 Dear Madam, Re: Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 As we continue the debate on the general thrust of the very relevant and sensitive matter at caption, we f eel compelled to put forward certain views for your urgent consideration.
Let us assure you that we have given careful thought and consideration before penning this letter as we hold the rights of Tobagoni ans to be paramount and the people of Tobago to be very close to our hearts and our Political Party.

The issue of Tobago’s self -governance is not a new one, but it has become one that has been catapulted into the national and constitutional spotlight, given the recently held Tobago House of Assembly (THA) elections of January 25 t h 2021.
This election has certainly alerted us to the glaring deficiencies in our interpretation of our regulatory laws .

More importantly, however, it has brought home the painful reality that when institutions and policies are built on shaky foundations, they run the risk of being subject to uncertainty in their operations and functions , thereby possibly crippling their effectiveness.
As per the Minutes of the 3 r d meeting of the Joint Select Committee Constitution (Amendment) ( Tobago Self -Government) Bill 2020, held on November 24 t h 2020, at 3.5, it was stated that “Mr.

Al- Rawi expressed the view that insof ar as the Bill is f ramework legislation, #111 Munroe Road, Cunupia, Chaguanas (868) 240-7458 chaguanasw@ttparliament.org 1 the implementation of its provisions, and in particular the Fourth Schedule, may be aff ected by changing conditions arising over time.
These changes run the risk of creating grey areas which may result in legal disputes between the Tobago Island Government and the Trinidad and Tobago Gov ernment.

He stressed that clarity of Island Govern ment is theref ore crucial (emphasis mine) .

to be assumed by the responsibilities the Tobago We find that this is an indisputable point, especially in light of the recent THA elections that would follow this statement .
This country has witnessed how the THA has been virtually stymied by the tie which was very probable and possible, but yet still unexpected.

Such a tie was one in which the voice of the people of Tobago was divided down the middle.

To date, it has not found proper expression in the THA, and no solution is imminent.
Despite our clear understanding , as was recorded in the JSC minutes of our last meeting, that whatever position/s the Committee arrives at, same will be presented to the people of Tobago for consultation, there were views expressed which seemed to put doubt on this position.
that any budgetary allocation Further, given from central government to the proposed Tobago Island Government sets a crucial limit on real power, and given that such an allocation is being discussed and negotiated without any real input or proper assessment indeed be unwise to postpone consultations in this very critical area any longer.
from Tobagonians, it would Even further, having May 2021 set as a possible deadline for completion is an unreal target and betrays the lack of appreciation of the very complex nature of this present exercise.
All of these now lead u s to our position which is as follows: The responsibilities to be assumed by the proposed Tobago Island Government is not one that should be articulated and discussed at 2 the level of the JSC without the immediate input of the people of both Tobago and Trinidad by way of extensive consultations.
Given the current operations of the JSC, one can only surmise that the consultation exercise is one that will be undertaken at some unspecified time in the future , as has been discussed by this JSC.

We wish to propose however, that consultation be undertaken immediately.

Failure so to do can see us deliberating in a circular fashion and fate as previous incarnations which delivered no substantial progress on the issues affecting Tobagonians .
More importantly , these JSC discussions continue to ‘ progress’ without the basic courtesy and respect due to the people of Tobago, whose views must inform our discussions.

this JSC suffering the same It is to be noted that this incarnation of th is Tobago Self Govern ment Bill is like no other.

The time is ripe for meaningful reform .

Due to the frustrating deadlock of the THA elections, Tobagonians have been rendered compromised in the control of their own affairs.
In some sense, the power sharing paradigm that is being articulated is being done without any real and meaningful input of the people of Tobago and Trinidad.

The entire country deserve s to be educated about the many crucial issues that surround this giant step in our nation’s history.

People need to understand the implications of the different power -sharing models that may be available to this twin -island state.
They need to understand whether the power sharing will be competitive, accommodating or colla borative.

They need to understand what structures would be put in place for the overall stability of central government and for mutual accountability in al l spheres.

They need to understand what are the current best -practice models of Multi Level Governance (MLGs) before they ‘sign off ’ on what is being proposed.

They need to have their say and to have it now!


Tobagonians especially need to be the architects of their own political future.

Any further delay in consulting with them is disrespectful.

As such, it is our very firm recommendation to this 3 Committee that before we go any further with this Bill before us, that we consider modifying our course immediate consultations with all the people and stake holders of Trinidad AND Tobago.
facilitate to Kindly bring this letter to the attention of the Chairman of the Committee and all Members so that it can be tabled on the agenda for our next meeting on Thursday 1 s t April, 2021 .

Please note that whilst this letter appears under the letterhead of one Member (in the interest of time), it represents the position of Members: Senator the Honourable Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh MP and the Honourable Mr. Dinesh Rambally MP.
A hard copy of this letter signed by a ll the aforementioned Members will be subsequently delivered .

the Honourable Ms. Jearlean John, Thank you.

Yours faithfully, Dinesh Rambally Member of the Joint Select Committee Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self -Government) Bill 2020 4 MINORITY REPORT APPENDIX B Dinesh Rambally, MP Member for Chaguanas West 29th May, 2021.
The Secretary, Joint Select Committee Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 Dear Madam, Re: Constitution (Amendment)(Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 As we can all appreciate, public consultations are very much part of the law- making process.

Such consultations assume crucial significance when the views of the public are necessary in order to create laws that reflect the wishes of the very people they govern.
At this time, I am concerned that consultations are coming to what I consider a premature end and we have not been able to inspire more widespread participation in one of the most important decisions facing us as a nation.

I cannot feel assured that, given the brief window of consultations, we have solicited sufficient views to say we understand what Tobagonians and Trinidadians are thinking on this subject.
Tobagonians have been urged to speak their minds as this is a valuable opportunity to have their voices heard.

However, On Friday 30th April and May 1st 2021, public consultations were held and a mere 31 oral submissions were received.

The online survey between 17th April to 4th May 2021 saw a low participation of 195 citizens.

I ask, could it be truly said that Tobagonians have spoken?
When one considers that the population of Trinidad and Tobago is almost 1.4 million, it is unacceptable, if not disturbing, that this Committee is prepared to be satisfied with such meagre consultations.

Former THA Chief Secretary, Mr. Hochoy Charles, has indicated that many of the issues that were painstakingly raised in the first Bill did not find expression in the two subsequent Bills before us.
We are told that the previous Bill enjoyed #111 Munroe Road, Cunupia, Chaguanas (868) 240-7458 chaguanasw@ttparliament.org widespread1 consultation and extensive2 reviews of people from Tobago as well as Trinidad.

This appears to contrast with our present scenario and begs the question as to what exactly constitutes the subject matter of consultations.

Are we talking at cross purposes with the Tobago people?
In my previous letter (30th March, 2021) I called for public consultations to begin immediately, both in Tobago and Trinidad, and that having May 2021 set as a possible deadline for completion is an unreal target and betrays the lack of appreciation of the very complex nature of this present exercise.

… Tobagonians especially need to be the architects of their own political future.
We are all too aware that the timing of the public consultations unhappily coincided with public health measures which meant that the usual townhall meetings could not be held.

Failing this, however, the onus was on the JSC to encourage many more persons to communicate with us in other ways, as listed.
There can be many reasons why participation was low, including (possibly) people not having access to electronic devices and/or proper connectivity and/or the opportunity to give feedback, if only because there are still some categories of persons who remain shy of technology.

Also, we must not underestimate the demand for usage of limited devices within households and families at this time.
Looking at the latest bout of public health restrictions, one can understand that the population is not operating as per usual, and expectedly, we may not have received robust response to consultations.
However, given the extraordinary significance of these two Bills before this Committee, and given everyone’s desire to finally get this Tobago Self-Governance issue right, I would like to sincerely appeal to this JSC to keep the period of consultations open until such time that we are satisfied that we have felt the pulse of Tobago.

I also reiterate that Trinidadians should be included in any such exercise, as this is not an exercise in isolation.

It must be a true collaboration of minds.


1 https://www.cnc3.co.tt/jsc-members-urge-join-tobago-self-government-bill-consultation/ 2 https://www.tha.gov.tt/info-hub/tobago-self-government/ Kindly bring this letter to the urgent attention of the Chairman of the Committee and all Members so that it can be brought to the attention of all Committee Members at the earliest possible time.

Thank you.
Yours faithfully, Dinesh Rambally Member of the Joint Select Committee Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 MINORITY REPORT ERRATA 27th June, 2021 The Secretary, Joint Select Committee Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 Dear Madam, Re: Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 We refer to the Minority Report of the Joint Select Committee on the Constitution (Amendment) (Self Government) Bill 2020, written by Members Senator Jearlean John, Members of Parliament, Rudranath Indarsingh and Dinesh Rambally, dated 7th June, 2021 and submitted on the said date.
Regrettably, in an effort to submit the Minority Report in a timely manner, an error was made at footnote 2 which ought to have read as follows: “See Letter dated 17th May, 2021 from the Tobago Lawyers Association written to Ms. Sophia Chote S.C., President of the Law Association of Trinidad and Tobago wherein they stated inter alia that “The unanimous view of our members at the meeting today was that these Bills should be rejected forthwith to effect the meaningful change that Tobagonians have been yearning and deserving to see.”; Instead of See Letter dated 17th May, 2021 from Ms. Sophia Chote S.C., President of the Law Association of Trinidad and Tobago wherein she stated inter alia that “The unanimous view of our members at the meeting today was that these Bills should be rejected forthwith to effect the meaningful change that Tobagonians have been yearning and deserving to see.”; Kindly bring same to the immediate attention of the Chairman and all other Committee Members so that it may be reflected on the record as a correction to our Minority Report.
We also intend to raise it in the Parliament so that the correction will be reflected in the Hansard.

Having regard to the fact that the captioned matter is set to be debated tomorrow morning, we ask that this soft copy be accepted, pending the delivery at the Parliament, at the soonest, of the signed copy by Members John, Indarsingh and Rambally.

All members of the said JSC are copied in the same email by which this letter is being sent to you.

Thank you for your kind assistance.
Yours faithfully, ________________________________________________ SENATOR JEARLEAN JOHN ________________________________________________ RUDRANATH INDARSINGH MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR COUVA SOUTH ________________________________________________ DINESH RAMBALLY MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHAGUANAS WEST APPENDIX XI MINUTES OF MEETINGS MINUTES OF THE 1ST MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD ON WEDNESDAY NOVEMBER 18, 2020 AT 12:35 P.M. Mrs. Bridgid Annisette-George Speaker of the House PRESENT Committee Members Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Mr. Nigel De Freitas Ms. Jearlean John Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Secretariat Chairman Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Assistant Secretary Ms. Keiba Jacob Parliamentary Legal Officer Mrs. Angelique Massiah Mr. Justin Jarrette Researcher Ms. Ria Rampersad Researcher ABSENT / EXCUSED Mr. Foster Cummings Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom 1 INTRODUCTION 1.1 The Speaker called the meeting to order at 12:35 p.m. and welcomed Members present.
She explained that, in accordance with Standing Orders 110 (2) of the House of Representatives and 100 (2) of the Senate, her role at the meeting was to facilitate the election of the Chairman.

ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN The Speaker invited nominations for the post of Chairman.

Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe 2.1 nominated Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis.

The nomination was seconded by Mr. Faris Al Rawi.

There being no further nominations, Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis was declared the 2.2 duly elected Chairman.
The Speaker wished the Members success in their deliberations and invited the 2.3 Chairman to take the Chair.
The Chairman thanked the Speaker for presiding over her election and thanked 2.4 Members for electing her to the Chair [The Speaker left the meeting] SECRETARIAL SUPPORT 3.1 The Chairman informed the Committee of the following staff assignments:  Mrs. Jacqui Sampson Meiguel, Clerk of the House - Secretary  Ms. Keiba Jacob, Procedural Clerk - Assistant Secretary  Mrs. Angelique Massiah - Parliamentary Legal Officer  Mr. Justin Jarrette - Graduate Research Assistant  Ms. Ria Rampersad - Graduate Research Assistant DETERMINATION OF A QUORUM The Committee agreed that the quorum should be three (3) Members inclusive of the 4.1 Chair, with representation from each House.
DETERMINATION OF DATE AND TIME FOR BUSINESS MEETING The Committee agreed to the following: the second meeting will be held on Friday November 20, 2020 at 10:00 a.m.; 5.1   at this meeting, there will be a review of the work done by the Committee in the last Parliament followed by discussions on the way forward.

2 OTHER MATTERS 6.1 The Chairman informed Members that committee documents would be uploaded to the Parliament’s web-based e-repository for easy access and use.
She advised that for this purpose each Member will be issued with an Apple iPad Pro device very shortly.

She confirmed that the e-repository will also be available to those Members already in possession of a State-issued device.

6.2 The Chairman directed staff of the Committee to assist Members in this regard.

ADJOURNMENT 7.1 The meeting was adjourned to Friday November 20, 2020 at 10:00 a.m. 7.2 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

7.3 The adjournment was taken at 12:46 p.m.


I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.
Chairman Secretary November 18, 2020 3 MINUTES OF THE 2ND MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD ON FRIDAY NOVEMBER 20, 2020 AT 10:02 A.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Foster Cummings Member Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Secretariat Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Secretary Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Mrs. Angelique Massiah Parliamentary Legal Officer Researcher Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Researcher Mr. Cuthbert Jolly Specialist Advisor Also Present Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Stacy-Lee Daniell Ms. Yolande T. Wilkinson Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag.)
Parliamentary Counsel I ABSENT / EXCUSED Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Member Dr. Varma Deyalsingh The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom INTRODUCTION 1.1 The Chairman called the meeting to order at 10:02 a.m. and welcomed Members present.

OVERVIEW OF THE BILL AND OF THE WORK DONE IN THE 11TH PARLIAMENT1 In the interest of time, the Chair moved immediately into the work of the Committee 2.1 in the 11th Parliament (the previous Committee) and made a presentation.
2.2 The following points were made during the presentation – i. ii.

iii.

iv.

v. The Bill was drafted by a Senior Counsel on behalf of the Tobago Forum of Parties.

It was brought to Parliament without change by the Cabinet; The Bill was referred to the previous Committee.
The previous Committee completed a significant amount of work and received numerous submissions; The previous Committee was in agreement with the proposal to grant autonomous status to the island of Tobago while maintaining the unitary State of Trinidad and Tobago; The previous Committee held 20 meetings, including a meeting in Tobago in 2018 with stakeholders; The major policy issues in the Bill are: a.
The Division of Powers between Central Government of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago Island Government; b.

Financial Provisions; • Budgetary Allocation; • Revenue Sharing; • Fiscal Review; • Borrowing; and • The Establishment of a Tobago Fund.

c. Dispute Resolution; d. The proposal for a Tobago Civil Service and Tobago Service Commission; e. The proposed Tobago Legislature; vi.

The Bill was returned to the 12th Parliament and stands referred to the current Committee.

2.3 Discussion ensued.


2.4 After a brief discussion, the Committee agreed - i. ii.

to meet with Tobago stakeholders including the Tobago Forum of Political Parties, in Tobago or virtually, at a later date; to meet with the UNDP experts who provided support to the previous Committee.

1 Minutes of the First meeting will be confirmed when the Committee next meets.
THE WAY FORWARD The chairman reminded Members that the Committee’s mandate was a clause by 3.1 clause examination of the Bill and noted that an examination of the clauses would essentially equate to an examination of the policy issues contained in the Bill.

The Committee agreed to begin its work with a consideration of the issue of the 3.2 Division of Powers and an examination of related clauses.
OTHER MATTERS The Chairman advised that the Committee’s secretariat was strengthened with the 4.1 addition of Mr. Cuthbert Jolly, former Deputy Chief Parliamentary Counsel, as a Specialist Advisor.

The Chairman informed Members that all the documents and reference material of 4.2 the previous Committee in will be made available in the Parliaments’ e-repository, for their easy access.
The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Tuesday 4.3 November 24, 2020 at 9:00 a.m. ADJOURNMENT 5.1 The meeting was adjourned.

5.2 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

5.3 The adjournment was taken at 10:41 a.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.
November 20, 2020 Chairman Secretary MINUTES OF THE 3RD MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD ON TUESDAY NOVEMBER 24, 2020 AT 9:01 A.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Assistant Secretary Ms. Keiba Jacob Parliamentary Legal Officer Mrs. Angelique Massiah Mr. Justin Jarrette Researcher Ms. Ria Rampersad Researcher Mr. Cuthbert Jolly Specialist Advisor Also Present Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Stacy-Lee Daniell Ms. Yolande T. Wilkinson Ms. Janelle Smith Legal Officer II Mr. Samraj Harripaul Parliamentary Counsel I Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag.)
Parliamentary Counsel I Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel 1 ABSENT / EXCUSED Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom INTRODUCTION 1.1 present.

The Chairman called the meeting to order at 9:01 a.m. and welcomed Members CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the First and Second Meetings held on 2.1 November 18 and November 20, 2020 and respectively.
The Minutes of the First Meeting were confirmed on a motion moved by Dr. Dillon- 2.2 Remy and seconded by Mrs. Sagramsingh-Sooklal.

The Minutes of the Second Meeting were confirmed on a motion moved by Mr. 2.3 Rambally and seconded by Mrs. Sagramsingh-Sooklal.

COMMENCEMENT OF THE CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF THE BILL- THE DIVISION OF POWERS The Chairman proposed that the Committee approach the discussion of the Division 3.1 of Powers by identifying the issues and the related clauses.
She referred members to the Note circulated by the Secretariat on the Division of Powers.

In this regard, the Committee examined Clauses 9 and 11 of the Bill (set out in the 3.2 Appendix).

The Committee noted that Clauses 9 and 11 propose to grant to the Tobago Island 3.3 Legislature and Government, law making powers and executive powers respectively, over all matters, in regard to Tobago, except those listed in the Fourth Schedule of the Bill.

3.3 A lengthy discussion ensued.


3.4 The discussion converged around the following matters - a.

The importance of understanding the historical context of the issue of self- government for the island of Tobago; 2 b.
The need for clarity in regard to the specific areas of law making to be entrusted unto the Tobago Island Legislature, so as to avoid uncertainty and litigation in the future; c. Similar to (b), the need for clarity in regard to the specific areas of responsibility over which the Tobago Island Government will have exclusive powers, so as to avoid uncertainty and conflict; d. The impact of devolving responsibility for all non-Schedule 4 matters to the Tobago Island Government; e. The Tanzania/Zanzibar model noting -   the historical background that may have contributed to the Constitution of the United Republic of Tanzania; the need for a clear list of the powers to be devolved to the island of Tobago within the unitary State of Trinidad and Tobago; f. The St. Kitts and Nevis model and the history of this nation State; g. The creation of an overly prescriptive list of powers may lead to issues of operationalization; h. That in the itemization of the powers to be devolved to Tobago, core areas of responsibility may be omitted inadvertently; i.
The need to develop the most effective system for the resolution of disputes that may arise between the Tobago Island Government and the Trinidad and Tobago Government.

Such process must be an improvement over what exists now, which has not been working for Tobago; j.

The need for the Committee to engage with the Tobago Forum of Political Parties and other critical stakeholders as it proceeds with its work.
3.5 Mr. Al Rawi expressed the view that, insofar as the Bill is framework legislation, the implementation of its provisions, and in particular the Fourth Schedule, may be affected by changing conditions arising over time.

These changes run the risk of creating grey areas which may result in legal disputes between the Tobago Island Government and the Trinidad and Tobago Government.

He stressed that clarity of the responsibilities to be assumed by the Tobago Island Government is therefore crucial.
3.6 There was consensus that the Committee should consider an alternative proposal for clauses 9 and 11 as well as Schedule 4 with should contain a comprehensive list of responsibilities to be devolved to Tobago rather than those to be retained by Central Government.

The Chairman expressed the view that stakeholder engagement was essential.
3.7 However, she submitted that, as an immediate first step, Committee members required an 3 understanding of the Bill and the policy issues in the Bill through an examination of the clauses of the Bill with the aid of the expansive resource documents at their disposal.

At the end of the discussion, the Secretariat was instructed to ensure that an 3.8 alternative proposal as agreed at paragraph 3.6 above was prepared for the Committee’s consideration at its next meeting.
The Committee also agreed to continue its clause by clause examination of the Bill at 3.9 its next meeting by considering the clauses related to the Financial Provisions proposed in the Bill.
OTHER BUSINESS 4.1 The Chairman reminded members that all the records of the last Committee, including all submissions, reports, research and presentations are available in the Committee’s e- repository which can be accessed by all Members of the current Committee, adding that those records are relevant to the work before the current Committee.

The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Friday 4.2 December 04, 2020 at 9:30 a.m. ADJOURNMENT 5.1 The meeting was adjourned.
5.2 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

5.3 The adjournment was taken at 10:42 a.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.


November 24, 2020 Chairman Secretary 4 APPENDIX Clause 9 Provisions Section 53 of the Constitution is amended by renumbering that section as section 53(1) and inserting the following subsection: “(2) Subject to subsection (1), the Tobago Legislature may make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago with respect to all matters except those which are set out in the Fourth Schedule.”.
11 Section 75 of the Constitution is amended by repealing subsection (1) and substituting the following subsection: “(1) There shall be a Cabinet for Trinidad and Tobago which shall – (a) subject to paragraph (b), have the general direction and control of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago; and (b) in relation to Tobago, have responsibility for the matters which are set out in the Fourth Schedule, and shall be collectively responsible therefor to Parliament.” FOURTH SCHEDULE THE LIST OF MATTERS FOR WHICH THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT SHALL HAVE EXCLUSIVE LAWMAKING POWERS – 1.
2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

11.

The President The Office of the Prime Minister Auditor General Civil Aviation Immigration Foreign Affairs Judiciary Meteorology National Security (except that internal policing shall be under the jurisdiction of the Tobago Island Government) Ombudsman The Integrity Commission.
5 MINUTES OF THE 4th MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD ON FRIDAY DECEMBER 04, 2020 AT 9:30 A.M. Committee Members PRESENT Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Mr. Nigel De Freitas Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Ms. Jearlean John Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Chairman Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Assistant Secretary Ms. Keiba Jacob Parliamentary Legal Officer Mrs. Angelique Massiah Researcher Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Researcher Mr. Cuthbert Jolly Specialist Advisor Also Present Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Stacy-Lee Daniell Ms. Janelle Smith Legal Officer II Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag.)
ABSENT / EXCUSED Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom INTRODUCTION 1.1 present.
The Chairman called the meeting to order at 9:30 a.m. and welcomed Members ANNOUNCEMENTS 2.1 The Chairman reminded the Committee that the following documents required for the meeting were available to members via the e-repository:  A Note outlining the policy issues related to the financial provisions in the Bill;  A historical note on the Federation of St. Kitts and Nevis; and  The alternative options for the clauses related to the Division of Powers and Schedule 4.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES 3.1 2020.


The Committee considered the Minutes of the Third Meeting held on December 04, 3.2 The following correction was made: In paragraph 3.8, delete “3.5” and substitute “3.6” 3.3 There being no other omissions or corrections, the Minutes, as amended, were confirmed on a motion moved by Mr. De Freitas and seconded by Mrs. Sagramsingh-Sooklal.
CONTINUATION OF THE CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF THE BILL The Division of Powers 4.1 The Chairman drew to the Committee’s attention the two options for the drafting of Clauses related to the issue of the Division of Powers (See Appendix I to these Minutes).
Essentially, they provide as follows:  Option 1 provides that the Tobago Legislature may make laws regarding the matters set out in the Fourth Schedule and that the Tobago Island Government will have executive power over those Fourth Schedule matters;  Option 2 provides that - i.

Parliament cannot make laws having effect in the island of Tobago for matters set out in the fourth schedule; ii.
The Tobago Legislature should be empowered to request and consent to the enactment by the Parliament of any law in respect to the island of Tobago touching on any item in the Fourth Schedule; iii.
A law enacted by Parliament, or any provision thereof, related to national security, foreign affairs or defence will have effect in Tobago when so declared by Presidential Proclamation and will supersede any law enacted by the Tobago Legislature in the event of inconsistency between the two; Laws passed by Parliament and having effect in Tobago shall not apply to items set out in the Fourth Schedule unless they pertain to incidental or supplementary provisions; iv.
v. Amendments to the Fourth Schedule should require a two-thirds majority of both Houses of Parliament.

4.2 A lengthy discussion ensued.

4.3 The discussion converged around the following matters - a.

The level of consultations that should take place before changes can be made to the Fourth Schedule; b.

The procedures to be followed for the enactment of changes to the Fourth Schedule; The Committee agreed that Option 2 was preferred.
However, the following provision 4.4 was approved to be added to the proposed new Section 53A (Clause10) – “A proposal for the amendment to the Fourth Schedule should be submitted to the National Parliament for enactment following the passage of a motion on the matter in the Tobago Legislature.”.

4.5 The committee then considered the proposed Fourth Schedule.
4.6 The Committee agreed as follows -:  Finance: several areas required further review and clarification specifically in relation to borrowing, the management of State Enterprises and lotteries and gaming;  Education: The following should remain with central government - a) Examinations; b) Accreditation system; c) Science - policy formulation, d) Tertiary Education Programmes: i.

Government Assistance for Tertiary Education (GATE); ii.

Higher Education Loan Programme (HELP).


 Rename ‘Spanish Language Implementation’ as ‘Foreign Language Implementation’;  Planning and Development: The following should remain with central government - a) Technical Cooperation - Projects and Programmes, b) Town and Country planning; and c) Vision 2030 for Tobago.
 Public Administration and Digital Transformation: The following should remain with central government - a) E-identity; b) Public Service Administration and Management; and c) Public Service Legislative Framework.
 Public Utilities: The following should remain with central government - a) Meteorological Services;  Rural Development and Local Government: The following should remain with central government - a) Municipal and other Local Government Bodies; and b) Winding up of operations of the Ministry of Local Government and managing the transition to the new service delivery programmes;  Community Development: The following should remain with central government - a) Best Village; and b) Management of issues relating to First Peoples;  Culture and the Arts: The following should remain with central government - a) Steel bands; b) Tassa; and c) Philharmonic Orchestra; and d) ‘National Days’ from ‘National Days and Festivals’.
 Works and Transport: The following should remain with central government a) National transportation, 4.7 The Chairman expressed the view that the proposed list of Tobago powers should not be too specific in order to accommodate changes to portfolio titles but should essentially capture the executive responsibilities devolved to the Tobago Island Government.

At the end of the discussion, there was agreement that the proposed Fourth Schedule 4.8 would be discussed with Tobago stakeholders.
The Financial Provisions The Chairman gave a brief summary of the policy issue “Financial Provisions” and 4.9 noted that the relevant clauses covered the following sub-issues:  The minimum 8% allocation;  The establishment of a Fiscal Review Commission;  Revenue sharing;  Powers to borrow and invest; and  The Tobago fund (See Appendix 2 to these Minutes).
4.10 The sub-item related to the minimum allocation was discussed and the following points were raised:  The rationale for the figure of 8% - - What data exists to assist with the determination of what is required to bring Tobago’s development on par with that of Trinidad; - Did the figure take into account the proposed responsibilities to be devolved to the Tobago Island Government?

; - The proposal to offset the minimum allocation with revenues collected in Tobago for Tobago.
4.11 Given the imminent House sitting, the Committee decided to adjourn further discussions on this issue.

Mr. De Freitas suggested that officials of the Ministry of Finance should be invited to assist the Committee in its further discussions on this matter.

The Committee agreed.


4.12 The Chairman urged members to review the reference documents in the e-repository including relevant verbatim notes and stakeholder comments from the work of the last Committee, in preparation for the resumption of discussions on the issue of Financial Provisions.

4.13 The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Friday December 11, 2020 at 9:30 a.m. ADJOURNMENT 5.1 The meeting was adjourned.

5.2 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.


5.3 The adjournment was taken at 11:24 a.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.

December 04, 2020 Chairman Secretary APPENDIX 1 The Division of Powers First Option Section 53 amended 9.
Section 53 of the Constitution is amended by renumbering that section as section 53(1) and inserting the following subsection: “ (2) Subject to subsection (1), the Tobago Legislature may make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago with respect to all the matters which are set out in the Fourth Schedule.”.

Section 54 amended 10.

Section 54(2)(a) of the Constitution is amended by inserting after the word “137”, the words “, 141A to 141AN or the Fourth Schedule”.

Section 75 amended 12.


Section 75 of the Constitution is amended by repealing subsection (1) and substituting the following subsection: “ (1) There shall be a Cabinet for Trinidad and Tobago which shall— (a) subject to paragraph (b), have the general direction and control of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago; and (b) in relation to Tobago, have responsibility for the matters which are set out in the Fourth Schedule, and shall be collectively responsible there- for to Parliament.”.
¨(1) There shall be a Cabinet for Trinidad and Tobago which shall have the general direction and control of the government of Trinidad and Tobago and shall be collectively responsible therefor to Parliament except that in relation to Tobago, the Tobago Island Government shall have responsibility in Tobago for such matters which are set out in the Fourth Schedule.¨.

Second Option Section 53 amended 9.


Section 53 of the Constitution is amended by renumbering that section as section 53(1) and inserting the following subsection: “ (2) Subject to subsection (1), the Tobago Legislature may make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago with respect to all the matters which are set out in the Fourth Schedule.”.

Section 53A inserted 10.

The Constitution is amended by inserting after section 53 the following section: ¨53A.
(1) Save as otherwise provided in subsections (2) and (3), the power of Parliament to make laws having effect in the island of Tobago shall not extend to any of the matters specified in the Fourth Schedule.
(2) If it is expressly declared in any law enacted by Parliament that the Tobago Legislature has requested and consented to the enactment in respect to the island of Tobago of any of the provisions of that law relating to any item of the Fourth Schedule those provisions shall accordingly have effect in the island of Tobago as if they had been enacted by the Tobago Legislature.
(3) At any time when there is in force a Declaration made by the President by Proclamation that any provisions of any law enacted by Parliament specified in that declaration (being provisions that relate to a specified matter) are required to have effect in the island of Tobago - (a) in the interests of national security; (b) in the interests of foreign affairs; or (c) in the interests of defence, those provisions shall accordingly have effect in the island of Tobago and if there is any inconsistency between those provisions and the provisions of any law enacted by the Tobago Legislature, the provisions of the law enacted by Parliament shall prevail.
(4) A law enacted by Parliament shall not be regarded as extending to an item in the Fourth Schedule by reason only that it contains incidental or supplementary provisions relating to that item and having effect in the island of Tobago; and if there is any inconsistency between any such provisions and the provisions of any law enacted by the Tobago Legislature, the provisions of the law enacted by Parliament shall prevail.
(5) Parliament may amend the Fourth Schedule but a bill for an Act that so does shall not be passed by Parliament unless at the final vote thereon in each House it is supported by the votes of not less than two-thirds of all the members of each House.
(6) In the exercise of his powers to make or revoke any such declaration as is referred to in subsection (3) the President shall act in accordance with the advice of the Prime Minister but no such advice shall be given without the concurrence of the Chief Secretary.¨ Section 54 amended 11.

Section 54(2)(a) of the Constitution is amended by inserting after the word “137”, the words “, 141A to 141AN or the Fourth Schedule”1.

Section 75 amended 12.


Section 75 of the Constitution is amended by repealing subsection (1) and substituting the following subsection: “ (1) There shall be a Cabinet for Trinidad and Tobago which shall— (a) subject to paragraph (b), have the general direction and control of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago; and (b) in relation to Tobago, have responsibility for the matters which are set out in the Fourth Schedule, and shall be collectively responsible there- for to Parliament.”.
¨(1) There shall be a Cabinet for Trinidad and Tobago which shall have the general direction and control of the government of Trinidad and Tobago and shall be collectively responsible therefor to Parliament except that in relation to Tobago, the Tobago Island Government shall have responsibility in Tobago for such matters which are set out in the Fourth Schedule.¨.
1 The CPC believes that Consideration should be made as to the requirement of what majority may be required to amend the proposed new section 53A.

FOURTH SCHEDULE (Sections 53, 141A and 141B) THE LIST OF MATTERS FOR WHICH THE TOBAGO ISLAND GOVERNMENT SHALL HAVE EXCLUSIVE LAW MAKING AND ADMINISTRATIVE POWERS IN TOBAGO AGRICULTURE, LANDS AND FISHERIES Agricultural Extension Services Land and Fisheries Agricultural Finance and Credit (Policy)???
Agricultural Infrastructure Agricultural Land Development, Distribution and Regularisation Agricultural Marketing Agricultural Policy and Planning Agricultural Research Animal Health and Production Apiculture Aquaculture Botanic Gardens Crop Production (Food and Fibre) Food Security Forestry, National Parks and Wildlife Horticulture Hydrographic Surveys Lands and Surveys Land Management Livestock Production Management and Standardisation of Agricultural Products Marine Fisheries Management???
Parks and Recreation Grounds Plant Health and Protection Praedial Larceny Surveys and Mapping EDUCATION Curriculum Development and Management Educational Broadcasting Educational Counselling and Guidance Educational Facilities Management (Pre-School, Primary, Secondary) Financial Assistance Studies Assistance for Tuition Expenses ICT in Schools Moral, Ethical and Spiritual Values in Schools Apprenticeship System Human Development Innovation System Physical Education in Schools Pre-School Education Primary School Education Registration of Private Education Institutions Research and Development Secondary School Education Scholarships and Advanced Training School Laboratory Equipment Maintenance School Library Services Skills Training and Education –Aviation Sector Training –Health Care Training –Nursing Education –Skills Development –Teacher Training (including Pre-School and Pre-Service Teacher Training) –Technical/Vocational/Education Foreign Language Implementation Special Education Student Revolving Loan Fund School Nutrition Programme Youth Academic Training Programme FINANCE HEALTH Borrowing (Local and Foreign)???
Lotteries and Gaming Pensions and Gratuities???

[National Insurance]???

Public Procurement [State Enterprises]???

Dental Services Drug Inspectorate Epidemiology Family Planning Education and Services Food and Drug Administration Insect Vector Control Medical Laboratory Services (including standards for regulation of private Lab facilities) Mental Health Care Services Blood Transfusion Service Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention Programme Health Insurance System???
Nursing Services Nutrition Services Paramedical Services Private Health Facilities (including standards and regulation) Public Health Education and Services Tobacco Control Veterinary Public Health Public Health (Policy and Standards)???
HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT Tobago Island Government Subsidized Housing Home Improvement Grants Policy Land Settlement Policy to Address Rent Restriction Legislation Regularisation of Tenure/Housing for Squatters Urban Development Urban Upgrading and Revitalization Programmes: Accelerated Housing Programme Tobago Island Government Aided Self-Help Housing Programme Housing and Village Improvement Programme (HVIP) Public Awareness and Education Programme Tenancy Programme Urban Upgrading and Revitalization Programme LABOUR Employment and Manpower Placement Factories Labour Education –Health and Safety Awareness –HIV/AIDS in the Workplace –Labour Laws –Small and Micro Enterprise Development Labour Inspectorate Labour Registry Labour Relations Labour Standards Occupational Safety and Health Overseas Employment Trade Disputes Trade Unions Wages Council On the Job Training Local Policing NATIONAL SECURITY PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT Coordinating and Monitoring of Strategic Plans Economic Management Economic Priority Setting Environmental Policy, Planning and Management Management of Climate Change Issues National Framework for Sustainable Development Manpower Planning Monitoring and Evaluation Public Sector Investment Public Sector Maintenance Socio—Economic Planning, Coordinating and Monitoring Urban Planning Statutory Boards PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION AND DIGITAL TRANSFORMATION Business Continuity Digital Government Digital Transformation –Cyber-security –Government Services On-line –Public Service ICT Governance –Systems Interoperablitity HRM Policy Development and Monitoring ICT Access Centres Information and Communication Technology –ICT Policy, Strategy and Managment –ICT Planning Information and Data Protection Open Government Public Management Consulting Public Service Modernisation Public Service Training and Development Property and Real Estate Strategic Human Resource Management PUBLIC UTILITIES Electrical Inspectorate Electricity Postal Services Public Utilities Recycling Telephones Waste Management Waste Water
 Management Water Water Resources Management RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Construction and maintenance of Access Roads, Drainage and Irrigation Systems Local Government (including Garbage Collection and Disposal) Monitoring of Work Programme of all service delivery agencies to ensure optimal benefit for rural communities Reforestation and Watershed Rehabilitation Programme Parks and Recreation Grounds Public Health and Sanitation Rural Development Rural Development Planning and Management Waste Management SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AND FAMILY SERVICES Adult Education Ageing Division Disbursement of funds/sponsorship Policy and Monitoring Interdisciplinary Child Development Centre Integrated Social Services Family Services Social Development Programme Senior Citizens Homes Social Impact Assessment and Review Social Planning, Development and Monitoring Social Policy Social Research Social Services Delivery and Policy –Change Management –Citizen Engagement –Disability Affairs –Halfway Houses –NGOs Poverty Alleviation Policy Social Displacement Social Welfare Support for persons who cannot pay Utilities Targeted Conditional Cash Transfer Programme Policy Social Services Measurement and Policies SPORT Governing Bodies/Sport Serving Associations Sport Policy Physical Education, Recreation and Sport–Adult Sports and Multi-Purpose Facilities Total Participation and High Performance Sports YOUTH Micro Development Cooperatives including Credit Unions Tobago Youth Commission Tobago Youth Policy Transition Homes Youth Empowerment Centres Youth Facilities Youth Advisory Council Youth Groups COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT Community Action for Revival and Empowerment Community Centres/Civic Centres Community Development Community Development Fund Community Development Policy and Monitoring Community Education (Skills Training) Programme Community Mediation Entrepreneurship at the Community Level Regional Complexes Transformation and Development Centres Hotel Development tourism and
 Tourism Products Tourism Policy Tobago Carnival Creative Arts Cultural Products and Centres Culture Cultural Organisations National Days Festivals TOURISM CULTURE AND THE ARTS WORKS AND TRANSPORT Bridges Coastal Erosion Construction Drainage Heritage Buildings Maintenance Maintenance Mechanical Services Motor Vehicle Registration and Control Public Transport Shipping Roads and Highways Traffic Management Unemployment Relief Programme (Works) APPENDIX 2 The Financial Provisions Note for the Committee A. Clauses relevant to the Financial Provisions: Clause 18 – Proposed Section 141AE Provision 141AE.
Parliament shall appropriate for the use of the House of Assembly for any financial year no less than eight percent of the total sum appropriated by Parliament in that financial year.

18 – Proposed Section 141AD 141AD.


(1) There shall be established a Fiscal Review Commission which shall comprise– (a) The Chairman of the Fiscal Review Commission, who shall be appointed by the President in his discretion after consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Prime Minister; (b) two members appointed by the Tobago Executive Council; and (c) two members appointed by the Cabinet.

(2) The members of the Fiscal Review Commission shall serve for a maximum period of five (5) years.
(3) The responsibilities of the Fiscal Review Commission shall be to – (a) determine and recommend to Parliament the sums required to be appropriated to Tobago in each financial year; (b) establish a mechanism for revenue sharing between the Islands of Tobago and Trinidad; (c) develop a regime for sharing the revenue obtained from the marine resources in the waters comprising each island and the maritime boundaries superjacent air space and telecommunications; (d) ensure that all revenues, fees and duties collected in Trinidad that are attributable to Tobago such as from custom duties, import duties and stamp duties and other duties shall be held for the account of Tobago; (e) ensure that all companies operating in Tobago or which operate offices, branches or do business in any other way in Tobago shall pay taxes in Tobago on such operations; and (f) give due consideration to the financial and developmental needs of Tobago in the context of Trinidad and Tobago and shall allocate financial resources to Tobago as fairly as is practicable, and in determining what is fair and practicable, the following considerations, among others, shall apply: (i) physical separation of Tobago by sea from Trinidad; (ii) isolation from the principal national growth centres; (iii) absence of the multiplier effect of expenditures and investments (private and public) made in Trinidad; (iv) restricted opportunities for employment and career fulfillment; and (v) the impracticability of participation by residents of Tobago in the major educational, cultural and sporting facilities located in Trinidad.
(4) In performing its functions, the Fiscal Review Commission shall consider such other factors as it deems appropriate.

(5) The Fiscal Review Commission shall submit to Parliament prior to the presentation of the budget in any financial year the sums required to be appropriated and the report of the Fiscal Review Commission shall be taken into consideration by Parliament in making an appropriation above eight percent in any financial year.

18 – Proposed Sections 141AJ and 141AK 141AJ.


The Tobago Executive Council shall have the power to borrow locally and internationally such sums as the Tobago Executive Council considers necessary for the discharge of its functions.
The Tobago Executive Council may borrow – (a) for any purpose relevant to its functions under any written law; (b) for the purpose of the prudent management of its financial affairs; (c) for the purpose of any investment as approved by the Tobago Executive Council; and (d) for any other purpose approved by the Tobago Legislature.
141AK.The Tobago Executive Council may invest - (a) for any purpose relevant to its functions under any enactment; (b) for the purpose of the prudent management of its financial affairs; (c) money that is not, for the time being, required by the Tobago Executive Council for any other purpose; and (d) only in a form of investment approved by the Tobago Legislature.

18 – Proposed Section 141AF 141AF.


There shall be a fund to be called “the Tobago Fund” which shall consist of – (a) such monies as shall be appropriated by Parliament for the use of the House of Assembly; and (b) such other monies as the House of Assembly may lawfully collect, borrow or be granted.

B.
B.

Policy Issues and Related Stakeholder Comments: The comments presented here were received from stakeholders in Trinidad and in Tobago, as well as from the UNDP in its January 2020 Mission Report, which is also referenced at Section C of this Note.

1.

Issue: Minimum Tobago Allocation The Tobago Forum of political parties proposes that the amount appropriated to Tobago by Parliament in any financial year be no less than 8% of the total budget.
This, therefore, is 8% of proposed expenditure regardless of revenue collected.

The 8% consists of 5% corresponding to Tobago’s share of the national population, plus 3% to make up for the habitual shortfall of funding for the Tobago Development Plan since the 2000 decision of the Dispute Resolution Commission to apply a range of 4.03%-6.9% based on population statistics from 1993-1997.

The Tobago Forum clarified that taxes collected in Tobago will be offset against the 8%2.
National Stakeholders Reginald Dumas: The basis for the 8% must be clarified.

UWI Faculty of Law: The suggested 8% minimum allocation must be justified because it is far greater than the 4.03% to Comments Received UNDP F.3 TIG’s entitlement to a fair share of all nationally collected tax With the equalisation of services and development as the autonomy objects in the Amendment Bill, the own source revenue and the nationally collected taxes from Tobagonians may or may not be sufficient to achieve this goal.
Any funding gap, if one exists, can be remedied through giving the TIG an entitlement to a fair share of the revenue raised nationally.

The fairness of the share refers to the achievement of the objects of autonomy.

As discussed 2 Response of the Tobago Forum of Political Parties to issues raised at the Sixth Meeting of the Joint Select Committee [JSC] on the Constitution Amendment (Tobago Self-Government) 15, 11 2018, page 1.
6.9% window agreed upon by Resolution Commission in 2000. the Dispute during the January 29th meeting, determining this “fair share” requires answering two questions: Ministry of Finance: The MOF concurs with the Tobago Forum’s proposal that taxes collected in Tobago would be offset against the 8%3.

a) what are the costs of providing equal services (as determined by the division of powers and functions) and equalising development?
and b) what is the gap, if any, between the revenue produced by the first two sources of revenue, and the costs determined in question (a)?

Given that the answers to these two questions are not fixed, but will change over time, JSC and the Forum of Political Parties both appear to agree that it is less useful to allocate a fixed percentage of the national budget to the TIG.

The proposed 8% in the Amendment Bill may either be too little or too much, as it is not scientifically (fact based) calculated.
It is based on current expenditure plus the need for equalisation of development.

It does not take into account the new services that the TIG must provide or the new sources of revenue.

The Forum of Political Parties articulated this concern in its March 25th 2019 communication to the JSC (para iii), in which the Forum appears to agree that the TIG’s own revenue should be subtracted from the 8% - thus making the total amount of revenue received by TIG commensurate with its fiscal responsibilities.
To achieve a fact-based calculation, a Fiscal Review Commission (FRC) can balance the sources of revenue to ensure equalisation.

Further UNDP comments regarding possible sources of revenue for Tobago: F.4 Conditional grants by TTG 3 Ibid, page 1.

A further source of revenue that usually accrue to subnational governments are conditional grants by the central government.

The same can apply to Trinidad and Tobago.


Whereas the other sources of revenue are constitutional entitlements, the use of which cannot be prescribed by the TTG, conditional grants are over and above any constitutional entitlement.

Accordingly, the TTG may prescribe conditions for their use.

This would be to advance national policy in areas under exclusive control of TIG.

Such grants fall under the full discretion of the TTG, and thus not a matter falling within the jurisdiction of the FRC.

2.
2.

Issue: Fiscal Review Commission The Tobago Forum proposes the establishment of a Fiscal Review Commission (FRC) with members appointed by the President (in consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Prime Minister), Cabinet and the Executive Council.

The FRC will determine the amount of funding to be provided to Tobago, considering the island’s unique development challenges.

This amount will be submitted in a Report to Parliament before each annual budget.
The FRC will ensure that all companies operating in Tobago pay taxes on those particular operations directly in Tobago.

National Stakeholders Reginald Dumas: Due to its composition, there is the risk of the central government controlling the FRC.

NJAC: There is a possibility of political interference in the case where both the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary belong to the same political party.
Stakeholder Comments: UNDP G. Fiscal Review Commission (FRC) The purpose of the FRC, as set forth in the Amendment Bill, is to determine what revenue (and hence which sources of revenue) the TIG needs to provide equal services and equalised development and advise Parliament accordingly.
To perform this function successfully, the following matters should be settled: G.1 Advisory powers It is the experts’ understanding from the January 29th meeting that the JSC is amenable to the idea of establishing a FRC, the purpose of which would be to provide advice to Parliament on the formation of the national budget.

The Ministry of Finance tables the budget, which would be preceded by consultations with the TIG, but the final decision is that of Parliament.
Although the FRC does not make a final binding determination about what the TIG’s fair share of the national budget should be, one might hope and expect its advice would be seen as ‘politically’ binding because of the high esteem of the Commission and the quality of its advice.

This is the status of the successive Indian Finance Commissions.

Where Parliament does not follow the FRC’s advice, it must provide reasons for not doing so.
G.2 FRC’s independence, impartiality and expertise The legitimacy of the FRC’s advice is based on its independence, impartiality and expertise.

Its status should be similar to other independent Commissions in the Trinidad and Tobago Constitution (s 136), which is achieved through the composition, appointment process, and institutional functioning.
The experts would suggest the JSC consider the following principles in designing the role of the FRC under the new autonomy arrangement (though adjustments to these principles to meet the Trinidad and Tobago context and needs would be appropriate):  As the very basis of the FRC is to give expert (fact based) advice, commissioners should have significant expertise in the key disciplines pertinent to its mission: finances, economics, and law.
 The FRC is an intergovernmental institution, ‘belonging’ neither to the TTG nor the TIG, but to both.
As with other commissions, the appointment is made by the President on the advice of the two legislatures involved – Parliament and the THA: o Two commissioners are nominated by Parliament (but although so nominated, they do not act as delegates of Parliament); o Two commissioners are nominated by the THA (but although so nominated, they do not act as delegates of THA); and o The Chairperson is appointed by the President on advice of the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary.
 The FRC is an impartial body whose legitimacy would ultimately depend on the quality of its findings and recommendations.
G.3 Principles guiding decision-making In giving effect to the overall goal of determining the funds the TIG needs to provide equal services and equalised development, the experts suggest that the FRC be guided by a number of factors, including:  The range of services delivered, and the costs attendant thereto (populations size, etc);  The extent of underdevelopment and cost of remedying development backlogs;  Own tax revenue, and the extent of TIG’s tax effort (incentivise tax collection);  The revenue received from personal and income tax and other taxes collected on Tobago by the Inland Revenue Division;  Establishment costs of the TIG.
In considering these factors, the FRC would then make a determination on (a) what the funding gap is; and (b) how it should be remedied by the allocation of a fair share of the revenue raised nationally.

This amount could be less or more than 8%.

It is the experts’ understanding that this principled and fact-based approach to sharing revenue raised nationally has been accepted by the JSC and Tobago Forum.
First, it is accepted that any revenue accruing to the TIG from taxes raised nationally on Tobagonians must be subtracted from the TIG’s fair share.

Second, it noted in a communication of 25 March 2019 to the JSC, that, with reference to the role of FRC in recommending the size of the allocation, its decisions would ultimately ‘obviate the need for the 8% allocation to Tobago’.

G.4 Transitional provisions The implementation of this process of sharing revenue raised nationally will take time.
An Act of Parliament must be passed to set up the FRC and set out its operational framework.

Until such time it is operative, the experts believe the proposed 8% could be implemented with the proviso that other sources of revenue are subtracted from that amount.

One could envision, for example, a constitutional requirement that the FRC be established within two years of the adoption of the Amendment Bill, with an additional year to set up the framework for the division of revenue.

3.
3.

Issue: Revenue Sharing The Tobago Forum proposes that the FRC will develop a regime for sharing revenue between the two (2) islands so that all revenue meant for Tobago is attributed to Tobago, even if collected in Trinidad.

National Stakeholders UNDP Stakeholder Comments: See G.4 Transitional provisions in the preceding table Ministry of Finance: The Bill is unclear about the division of powers between GORTT and TIG concerning responsibility for specific services.
The Ministry of Finance also advised of the need for a ‘rigorous and data driven’4 approach the development of a formula for the attribution of revenue.

to 4.

Issue: The Powers to Borrow and to Invest 4 Ministry of Finance, Written Submission dated April 24, 2019.
The Tobago Forum proposes that the Executive Council have the power to borrow such sums as it considers necessary from domestic or international lenders in order to carry out its functions subject to relevant approvals of the Legislature where applicable.

The Executive Council will also have the power to make investments.
National Stakeholders UNDP Stakeholder Comments: UWI Faculty of Law: Borrowing by the Executive Council will affect national economic measurement and the overall assessment of Trinidad and Tobago by international ratings agencies.

From Mission Report: D.2.


Expanded list of exclusive TTG powers External borrowing exposes the entire country to fluctuations in currencies markets and the overall indebtedness of a country Several stakeholders: International borrowing by the Executive Council could create a moral hazard and attract predatory lenders.

F. Intergovernmental fiscal relations Borrowed money is not a source of revenue, but a financing instrument, and should be dealt with separately.
From previous written submission: Examples from other jurisdictions show that lenders grant loans to subnational administrations regardless of the repayment risk, seeing central governments as a safety net for guaranteed repayment loans in case of default.

5.

Issue: The Tobago Fund The Tobago Forum proposes the establishment of a Fund comprised of sums appropriated by Parliament and other monies held by the Tobago Legislature.
For reference: Section 141A of the Constitution established the Tobago House of Assembly Fund comprising monies appropriated by Parliament and other monies collected by the THA.

Board of Inland Revenue: The Bill does not address the Consolidated Fund in its capacity as holder of all funds raised or received by Trinidad and Tobago.
Stakeholder Comment: C. Other Observations / Recommendations – UNDP Mission Report, pp 10-11: F. Intergovernmental fiscal relations As discussed during the January 29th meeting, the object of intergovernmental fiscal relations between the TTG and the TIG is to give effect to the two primary objects of Tobago autonomy: securing equality of services and equalisation of development.
As proposed in the Amendment Bill, the TIG would access revenue from four basic sources, which are elaborated below:  Taxes, duties, and levies imposed and collected by the TIG (own source revenue);  The TIG’s entitlement to national taxes collected in Tobago;  The TIG’s entitlement to a fair share of nationally collected taxes; and  Conditional grants by the TTG.
F.1 Own source revenue Although many key revenue sources are allocated to the TTG under the Tanzanian model under the Amendment Bill (as suggested in the revised Schedule 4), what remains unlisted and thus in the domain of the TIG is still substantial.
If the JSC adopts the list of exclusive Union powers under the Tanzanian model the TTG will collect on behalf of all the people of Trinidad and Tobago, the following taxes:  Personal income tax  Corporate income tax  Customs duties and excise  Taxes, levies and duties on non-renewable sources  Value added tax  Profits from state owned enterprises The revenue so raised, under the existing arrangement and as contemplated in the Amendment Bill, is deposited in the Consolidated Fund for distribution to both the TTG and TIG.
The allocation of these taxing powers to the TTG leaves as unlisted many taxes, levies and duties.

These potential sources of revenue thus fall to the domain of the TIG and can be substantial.

These include:  Property taxes  Tourist levies  Business taxes of enterprises located on Tobago, based, for example, on turn-over or personnel compliment  Licences, for example, fisheries  Fuel taxes / levies  Profits from TIG owned enterprises  Gambling taxes.
In addition, charges for the trading services would be collected (for water, electricity, sanitation, health).

The collection of the revenue from these sources would be the responsibility of the TIG.

F.2 TIG’s entitlement to national taxes collected by Inland Revenue Division from Tobagonians The Amendment Bill proposes that the TIG would be entitled to the national taxes collected by the Inland Revenue Division from Tobagonians.
As noted above, these taxes are:  Personal income tax  Corporate income tax  Customs duties and excise  Taxes, levies and duties on non-renewable sources (depending on the territorial jurisdiction of the TIG)  Value added tax.

The effect of this provision is that the TIG would have an entitlement to all tax sources based on Tobago.
The concern, as expressed by members of the JSC during the January 29th meeting, is then that no part of this revenue goes to the TTG for national services delivered on Tobago or from which Tobagonians benefit, for example – immigration services, aviation, foreign affairs, national security, etc.
This concern comes to the fore only when the TIG’s financial resources (as captured by own revenue and national revenue raised on Tobago) exceed their financial needs (the money needed to execute TIG’s governance responsibilities) are more than covered by own revenue and national revenue raised on Tobago.

In the short to medium term that is not likely to happen.
December 3, 2020 MINUTES OF THE 5th MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD ON FRIDAY DECEMBER 11, 2020 AT 9:37 A.M. Committee Members PRESENT Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Mr. Nigel De Freitas Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Ms. Jearlean John Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Assistant Secretary Ms. Keiba Jacob Mrs. Angelique Massiah Parliamentary Legal Officer Ms. Sharla Elcock Parliamentary Legal Officer Mr. Justin Jarrette Researcher Ms. Ria Rampersad Researcher Ministry of Finance Mrs. Suzette Taylor-Lee Chee Permanent Secretary Mrs. Michelle Durham-Kissoon Permanent Secretary Mrs. Muriel Alfred-James Deputy Director of Budgets, Budgets Division Ms. Naleisha Bally Treasury Director, Treasury Divison Mr. Kyren Greigg Senior Macro-Economic Analyst Economic Management Division Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Stacy-Lee Daniell Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag.)
Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Parliamentary Counsel I Ms. Janelle Smith Legal Officer II ABSENT / EXCUSED Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Mr. Cuthbert Jolly Specialist Advisor The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN FOR THE DAY 1.1 1.2 The Assistant Secretary informed members that in the absence of the Chairman, the Committee was required to elect a Chairman for the day in accordance with Standing Orders 112(4) of the House of Representatives and 102(4) of the Senate.
The Assistant Secretary invited nominations for the position of Chairman for the day.

Mr. De Freitas was nominated on a motion moved by Dr. Dillon- Remy and seconded by Mrs. Sagramsingh-Sooklal.

1.3 There being no other nominations, the Assistant Secretary declared Mr. De Freitas the duly elected Chairman of the day.

1.4 Mr. De Freitas assumed the Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:37 a.m. and welcomed all present.
ANNOUNCEMENTS 2.1 The Chairman indicated that Mrs. Robinson-Regis and Mr. Rambally had requested to be excused from the meeting.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Fourth Meeting held on December 11, 3.1 2020.

The Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Dr. Deyalsingh and seconded by 3.2 Dr. Dillon-Remy.
MATTERS ARISING Paragraph 4.11 4.1 The Chairman reminded Members that officials from the Ministry of Finance were invited to the meeting to assist the Committee on matters related to the Financial Provisions in the Bill.

4.2 Further to questions raised by Members about meeting with stakeholders in Tobago, the Chairman reaffirmed the Committee’s earlier decision to allow Members to become familiar with the policy issues in the Bill before meeting with Stakeholders.
CONTINUATION OF THE CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF THE BILL The Financial Provisions 5.1 The Chairman welcomed the officials from the Ministry of Finance to the meeting.

5.2 The Chairman drew the Committee’s attention to the components of the Financial Provisions highlighted in Clause 18 (proposed sections 141 AD-141AL) of the Bill, namely: the minimum Tobago allocation; the Fiscal Review Commission;    revenue sharing;  powers to borrow and invest; and  the Tobago Fund.

Discussion ensued.
Discussion ensued.

The minimum Tobago allocation 5.3 During the discussion the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Finance Mrs. Taylor-Lee Chee made the following points: i.

Currently, the size of Tobago’s population and the island’s development needs are the main factors considered in determining Tobago’s minimum budgetary allocation; iii.

ii.
ii.

More rigor is needed regarding the development component when determining the minimum allocation by taking into consideration such factors as Tobago’s GDP, the cost of living and poverty levels; The unavailability of statistics specific to Tobago is a major challenge hindering the achievement of (ii); The determination of Tobago’s minimum allocation should not be based solely on meeting fixed year to year costs, but should also include finances needed to achieve medium or long term goals.

iv.
iv.

5.4 At the end of the discussion, the Committee agreed that further deliberations were needed on this matter which members agreed was a key policy issue in the Bill.

The Ministry of Finance was requested to provide advice regarding the minimum allocation having regard to the revised Fourth Schedule of portfolio responsibilities and using available data.
The Fiscal Review Commission (FRC) 5.5 The Chairman explained the purpose of the proposed Fiscal Review Commission (FRC), its objectives and composition, with reference to Clause 18 (the proposed 141AD) of the Bill.

5.6 The question of whether the portfolio and/or skills and competencies of the members of the FRC should be specified in the Bill was advanced.
Some of the issues highlighted in relation to this point of concern included:  The role of the Secretary of Finance, Tobago Island Government;  Whether it is necessary that the Chairman be qualified in the area of finance;  The relationship between the Tobago Executive Council and the FRC; and  The roles and responsibilities of the FRC.

5.7 There was a lengthy discussion.


5.8 In response to a suggestion from the Chairman, it was agreed that members should be given some more time to consider the role and composition of the FRC and to provide their comments in advance of any further deliberations on the matter.

The Chairman requested members to submit their comments to the Secretariat, for circulation and uploading to the e-drive.
It was also agreed that the Committee would receive a submission from Mr. Al Rawi 5.9 on the Financial Provisions proposed in the Bill.

5.10 Given the need to allow the Ministry of Finance sufficient time to advise on a formula and rationale for the minimum allocation and to receive comments and submissions from Mr. Al Rawi and other Members, the Committee agreed that the consideration of the clauses related to the Financial Provisions would resume at a later date.
Next – the proposed Tobago Legislature 5.11 The Committee agreed to proceed next to a consideration of Clause 18 (proposed section 141 to 141AB) of the Bill which deals with proposals for a Tobago Legislature.

5.12 The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Friday December 18, 2020 at 9:30 a.m. ADJOURNMENT 6.1 The meeting was adjourned.

6.2 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

6.3 The adjournment was taken at 11:24 a.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.
December 11, 2020 Chairman Secretary MINUTES OF THE 6th MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON FRIDAY JANUARY 15, 2021 AT 9:34 A.M. Committee Members PRESENT Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Member Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob-Mottley Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Assistant Secretary Parliamentary Legal Officer Mrs. Angelique Massiah Mr. Justin Jarrette Researcher Ms. Ria Rampersad Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Stacy-Lee Daniell Ms. Yolande T. Wilkinson Parliamentary Counsel I Ms. Janelle Smith Legal Officer II Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag.)
Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel ABSENT / EXCUSED Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Chairman Member Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom Page 1 of 5 ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN FOR THE DAY 1.1 The Assistant Secretary informed members that, in the absence of the Chairman, the Committee was required to elect a Chairman for the day in accordance with Standing Orders 112(4) of the House of Representatives and 102(4) of the Senate.
1.2 The Assistant Secretary invited nominations for the position of Chairman for the day.

Mr. De Freitas was nominated on a motion moved by Ms. Cudjoe and seconded by Dr. Dillon- Remy.

There being no other nominations, the Assistant Secretary declared Mr. De Freitas 1.3 the duly elected Chairman of the day.

Mr. De Freitas assumed the Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:34 a.m. and 1.4 welcomed all present.
ANNOUNCEMENTS 2.1 The Chairman indicated that Mrs. Robinson-Regis and Mr. Rambally requested to be excused from the meeting.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Fifth Meeting held on December 11, 3.1 2020.

The Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Ms. Cudjoe and seconded by Dr. 3.2 Dillon-Remy.
MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 5.8 The Chairman reminded Members to send their comments to the Secretariat on the 4.1 role and composition of the Fiscal Review Commission (FRC).

Paragraph 5.9 4.2 The Chairman advised Members that the Committee is awaiting the submission of Mr. Faris Al Rawi on the Bill’s financial provisions.

The Chairman requested that the Secretariat send correspondence to Mr. Al Rawi requesting his submission.
Paragraph 5.4 Page 2 of 5 The Chairman informed Members that by January 29, 2021 the Ministry of Finance 4.3 will submit its advice on the minimum Tobago allocation, having regard to the revised Fourth Schedule of portfolio responsibilities and using available data.

CONTINUATION OF THE CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF THE BILL The Tobago Legislature The Chairman welcomed the officials from the Office of the Chief Parliamentary 5.1 Counsel to the meeting.
The Chairman drew the Committee’s attention to the provisions on the Tobago 5.2 Legislature highlighted in Clause 18 (proposed sections 141 AD-141AB) of the Bill, namely:     the bicameral nature of the Tobago Legislature; the constitutionalisation of the Tobago Legislature; special constitutional protection of Tobago’s autonomy status; and the electoral parameters.
5.3 Discussion ensued on the four (4) aforementioned issues with reference to submissions of the Tobago Forum and the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP).

The bicameral nature of the Tobago Legislature 5.4 The Chairman read paragraph 8, Legislation of Community Participation, of the Greater Autonomy for Tobago Policy Statement (the Policy Document) by the Tobago Forum, which explained the policy considerations behind the proposal for a bicameral Tobago Legislature.
A discussion ensued on this proposal and on the following related issues highlighted in stakeholders’ comments: (i) the small size of the population; (ii) the budgetary implications; (iii) the delay in decision-making; and (iv) the selection of members to populate both Houses.

The Committee agreed that further discussion and consultation were required on 5.5 this proposal.
The Constitutionalisation of the Tobago Legislature The Chairman highlighted the UNDP’s concern that the constitutionalisation of this 5.6 provision may be disadvantageous to Tobago and asked the Committee to consider whether these provisions should be more flexible.

After a brief discussion, the Committee agreed that a legal construct which would 5.7 allow for greater flexibility is preferred.

The Committee further agreed to re-engage the stakeholders in Tobago on this point.
Page 3 of 5 Special Constitutional Protection of Tobago’s autonomy status The Committee noted the concern that there is no protection for Tobago’s autonomy 5.8 in the Bill as drafted, as Parliament can reverse the gains made without consultation with the citizens of Tobago.

The Committee agreed that the Constitution amendment Bill should provide a 5.9 mechanism to prevent the national Parliament from making decisions related to Tobago’s autonomy, unless agreed to by the island’s representative body.
The Electoral Parameters 5.10 The Committee discussed the configuration of districts for the election of Members to the Tobago Legislature with reference to the Policy Document.

The Committee also discussed the issues surrounding the use of “parishes” as electoral districts in the People’s House having regard to the submissions of the Elections and Boundaries Commission (EBC).

A lengthy discussion ensued.


5.11 As a result of the discussions, the following decisions were taken: (i) the CPC to submit legislative options for the establishment of the proposed Tobago Legislature.
Specifically, the CPC was requested to -  provide options for the configuration of a unicameral Legislature;  examine the proposed configuration of the People’s House and inclusion of such legal options for the provide workable representation in the Legislature; including  provide options for independent persons in the Legislature but not as elected Members; and  suggest mechanisms to ensure the protection of Tobago’s autonomy within the legislation.
(ii) if required, further and more detailed written comments to be requested from the EBC on the electoral considerations ; and (iii) the Committee will decide whether it would be beneficial to invite oral submissions from the EBC after careful consideration of the written comments obtained.

NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that at its next meeting, it would continue its examination of 6.1 clause 18 together with relevant stakeholders’ comments.
The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Friday 6.2 February 5, 2021 at 9:30 a.m. ADJOURNMENT Page 4 of 5 7.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

7.2 The adjournment was taken at 11:37 a.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.
January 15, 2020 Chairman Secretary Page 5 of 5 MINUTES OF THE 7TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON FRIDAY FEBRUARY 5, 2021 AT 9:42 A.M. Committee Members PRESENT Mr. Nigel De Freitas Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Ms. Jearlean John Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Secretariat Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob-Mottley Ms. Sharla ElcockAssistant Mrs. Angelique Massiah Mr. Justin Jarrette Member (and Chairman for the Day) Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Secretary Assistant Secretary Secretary Parliamentary Legal Officer Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Mr. Jovan Hunte Mr. Samraj Harripaul Ms. Janelle Smith Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel I Parliamentary Counsel I Legal Officer II ABSENT / EXCUSED Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Mr. Clarence Rambharat Chairman Member Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom Page 1 of 6 ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN FOR THE DAY 1.1 The Assistant Secretary informed members that, in the absence of the Chairman, the Committee was required to elect a Chairman for the day in accordance with Standing Orders 112(4) of the House of Representatives and 102(4) of the Senate.
1.2 The Assistant Secretary invited nominations for the position of Chairman for the day.

Mr. De Freitas was nominated on a motion moved by Ms. Cudjoe and seconded by Mrs. Sagramsingh-Sooklal.

There being no other nominations, the Secretary declared Mr. De Freitas the duly 1.3 elected Chairman for the day.

Mr. De Freitas assumed the Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:42 a.m. and 1.4 welcomed all present.
ANNOUNCEMENTS 2.1 The Chairman indicated that Mrs. Robinson-Regis requested to be excused from the meeting.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES 3.1 The Committee considered the Minutes of the Sixth Meeting held on January 15, 2021.

The Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Mrs. Sagramsingh-Sooklal and 3.2 seconded by Dr. Deyalsingh.
MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 4.1 The Chairman reminded Members to send their comments on the role and 4.1 composition of the Fiscal Review Commission (FRC) to the Secretariat so that they may be compiled and circulated in preparation for further deliberations on this matter as part of the Financial Provisions of the Bill.
Paragraph 4.2 The Chairman advised Members that the Secretariat wrote to Mr. Al Rawi regarding 4.2 the provision of a written submission on the Bill’s Financial Provisions and is awaiting confirmation of a timeline for its completion.
Paragraph 4.3 Page 2 of 6 The Committee agreed to grant the extension requested by the Ministry of Finance 4.3 to February 12, 2021 to submit advice on the minimum Tobago allocation, having regard to the revised Fourth Schedule of portfolio responsibilities and using available disaggregated data.
Paragraph 5.11 The Chairman advised Members that the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel 4.4 (CPC) submitted the requested legislative options for the establishment of the proposed Tobago Legislature for the Committee’s consideration, and that it was uploaded to the e- drive.

CONTINUATION OF THE CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF THE BILL The Tobago Legislature 5.1 The Chairman welcomed the officials from the Office of the CPC to the meeting.
The Chairman drew the Committee’s attention to the matrix of stakeholder 5.2 comments on the provisions of Clause 18 of the Bill related to the Tobago Legislature (proposed Section 141 to 141 AB).

5.3 Discussion ensued focusing on the possible merits or usefulness of the suggestions made in the stakeholder comments and seeking to establish answers to the questions posed therein.
(See Appendix to these Minutes) 5.4 As a result of the discussions, the following decisions were taken: (i) Proposed Section 141A(7): the Office of the CPC was asked to report to the Committee on whether it is an established practice for the Executive to set timeframes for action to be taken by the President; and (ii) The Committee agreed with Mr. Cummings’ recommendation that the matter of establishing a standard definition of Tobago for insertion into the Bill be referred to the Office of the Attorney General for further guidance.
NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that at its next meeting, it would continue its examination of 6.1 clause 18 together with relevant stakeholders’ comments.

The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Thursday 6.2 February 18, 2021 at 3:00 p.m. ADJOURNMENT 7.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

Page 3 of 6 7.2 The adjournment was taken at 11:35 a.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.


February 5, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 4 of 6 CLAUSE BY CLAUSE CONSIDERATION OF THE BILL Clause 18 – Chapter 11A repealed and substituted Appendix PROPOSED SECTION 141 – ESTABLISHMENT OF THE TOBAGO LEGISLATURE Committee Deliberation the Committee consulted with the officials from the Office of the CPC and found that there was no need to replace the word with “government” the “governance”, as former is the standard terminology used in legal writing.
With respect to the one- month timeframe proposed for the President to indicate whether a Bill presented to him will be assented the Committee discussed the a of relevance timeframe it was affirmed that there should be one consistent Tobago of definition throughout the Bill such to, Description Stakeholder Comments 141A(2) National Joint Action Committee The word government should be replaced by the word governance.
141A(7) Reginald Dumas Who determines whether or not “the Tobago Legislature has exceeded its legislative powers”?

What happens if the President has said nothing after one month?

What may be the effect of sections 61 and 80 of the Constitution?

141A(11) Reginald Dumas The Bill does not define “Tobago”.

A reading of this subsection suggests that “Tobago” is separate from “Little Tobago”, “Marble Island”, etc.

What therefore would be the scope of a “Tobago Statute”?
Re the proposed 11-mile limit, see Hansard for the remarks on this matter made by Dr. Keith Rowley on January 16, 2013 during the parliamentary debate on the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago) Bill, 2013.

What is the PNM’s present position?

Also, is the low watermark the same as the baseline in the context of the Territorial Sea Act, as amended?

141A(27) Reginald Dumas: In a democratic society, such a certificate should be challengeable in court.
that it was explained certificates the from Presiding Officer are not challengeable in court.

Page 5 of 6 141E(1) National Joint Action Committee (141 E) (1) The Legislature of any society is the highest institution of representation and civic duty in any institution should aspire to democracy.

Such an epitomize the values and principles of true democracy.
The Presiding officer in the Parliament or Assembly is de facto head of that institution and therefore the embodiment of such principles of democracy should reside in that office.

It is therefore necessary that the office of the Presiding officer be beyond any question or doubt of impartiality.

Consequently, all efforts should be made to remove any perception of bias or partiality surrounding such an office.
of of the Members discussed the importance and independence impartiality the Presiding Officer of the Legislature and exchanged views on the comparative merits and suitability of the Presiding Officer being elected from within the Legislature or appointed by the the President of Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

With the aforementioned, NJAC submits that the Presiding officer should be appointed by the President in consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Minority Leader.
The Presiding officer should not be selected from amongst any of the sitting Assemblymen.

general was There agreement that an elected Assembly must enjoy the privilege of choosing its Presiding Officer.
Page 6 of 6 MINUTES OF THE 8TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON THURSDAY FEBRUARY 18, 2021 AT 3:01 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Mr. Nigel De Freitas Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Secretariat Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Sharla Elcock Mrs. Angelique Massiah Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Member (and Chairman for the Day) Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Secretary Assistant Secretary Parliamentary Legal Officer Researcher Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Parliamentary Counsel I Mr. Jovan Hunte Parliamentary Counsel I Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Ms. Janelle Smith Legal Officer II Sharri Paul Legal Officer II ABSENT / EXCUSED Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Mr. Clarence Rambharat Ms. Jearlean John Chairman Member Member Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom Page 1 of 8 ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN FOR THE DAY 1.1 The Assistant Secretary informed members that, in the absence of the Chairman, the Committee was required to elect a Chairman for the day in accordance with Standing Orders 112(4) of the House of Representatives and 102(4) of the Senate.
1.2 The Assistant Secretary invited nominations for the position of Chairman for the day.

Mr. De Freitas was nominated on a motion moved by Mrs. Sagramsingh-Sooklal and seconded by Mr. Cummings.

There being no other nominations, the Assistant Secretary declared Mr. De Freitas the 1.3 duly elected Chairman for the day.

1.4 Mr. De Freitas assumed the Chair, called the meeting to order at 3:02 p.m. and welcomed all present.
ANNOUNCEMENTS 2.1 The Chairman indicated that Mrs. Robinson-Regis requested to be excused from the meeting.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Seventh Meeting held on February 05, 3.1 2021.

3.2 Mr. Rambally requested that the decision to confer with stakeholders both in Trinidad and Tobago be included in the Minutes of the Seventh Meeting.

The Chairman reminded Members that the decision to hold consultations were included in previous Minutes of the Committee.
The Secretary confirmed that the decision was in fact recorded in the Minutes of the Committee’s fifth meeting held on December 11, 2020.

3.3 With the decision to confer with stakeholders being reaffirmed, the Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Mrs. Sagramsingh-Sooklal and seconded by Dr. Remy.

MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 4.1 The Chairman once again reminded Members to send their comments on the role and 4.1 composition of the Fiscal Review Commission (FRC) to the Secretariat.
Page 2 of 8 Paragraphs 4.2-4.3 4.2 The Chairman advised that submissions on the Bill’s Financial Provisions from Mr. Al Rawi and the Ministry of Finance had not yet been received.

The Committee agreed to an extension to February 18, 2021 for submissions on the financial provisions of the Bill.
Paragraph 4.4 4.3 The Chairman advised Members that the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC) submitted further options for the draft of Clause 10 and Clause 18 (proposed sections 141A to 141 AA) of the Bill, regarding the Tobago Legislature.

These documents were submitted for the Committee’s consideration and were uploaded to the e-drive.
CONTINUATION OF THE CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF THE BILL The Tobago Legislature 5.1 The Chairman drew the Committee’s attention to the matrix of stakeholder comments on the provisions of Clause 18 of the Bill related to the Tobago Legislature (proposed Section 141 A to 141 AN (2)).

Discussion ensued focusing on the possible merits or utility of the suggestions 5.2 provided by stakeholders,with a view to establishing answers to the questions posed therein.
(See Appendix to these Minutes) 5.3 As a result of the discussions, the following decisions were taken: (i) Proposed Section 141B: The Committee accepted the CPC’s draft of section 141B, Option A, providing for a unicameral legislature with – (a) fifteen Assemblymen elected at an election held in accordance with the Representation of the People Act and is qualified to be an elector under section 12 of the Representation of the People Act, or such other number of Assemblymen as corresponds with the number of electoral districts as provided for by an Order made by the President; (b) five Councillors appointed by the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary; (c) three Councillors appointed by the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Minority Leader; (d) two persons appointed by the President in his discretion from outstanding persons, resident in Tobago, from economic or social or community organisations and other major fields of endeavour; and (e) a Presiding Officer who may or may not be an Assemblyman, who shall not be a- i. member of the Tobago Executive Council; or ii.
person appointed under paragraph (d), and who shall be elected in accordance with section 141E.
Page 3 of 8 (ii) Proposed Section 141E(2): The Office of the CPC would advise the Committee on the proposal for the Presiding Officer to be a Justice of the Peace; (iii) Proposed Section 141 G(3): The Committee accepted that “Whenever the Chief Secretary is absent from Tobago or considers it desirable to do so…” should be changed to ‘Whenever the Chief Secretary is absent from Trinidad and Tobago’ to reflect the unitary state; (iv) Proposed Section 141(H)(2): The Office of the CPC would advise the Committee on whether the provisions for the resignation of the Chief Secretary should be included in the Bill; (v) Proposed Section 141 (L): The Committee accepted that “Tobago Gazette” should be replaced by the words “Trinidad and Tobago Gazette”; (vi) Proposed Section 141 (R ) (2): The Committee accepted to delete ‘or party’ where they appear in the words “…the appointment of a Councillor on the advice of the person or party which nominated him…” (vii) Proposed Section 141 Z (3): The Committee accepted that the term “Elector” should be replaced with “Assemblyman”; (viii) Proposed Section 141 AE-AG: The Committee accepted that the references to House of Assembly be replaced with Tobago Island Government; and (ix) Proposed Section 141 AG: The Office of the CPC was asked to draft an alternative provision in the Bill to provide for a debate on the budgetary estimates proposed by the Tobago Island Governemnt in advance of its consideration for National Budget; (x) The financial provisions in Clause 18 would be considered upon receipt of the submissions from the Mnistry of Finance and Mr. Al rawi (in his capacity of Attorney General); and (xi) The Committee agreed to review the proposed option for a redraft of Clause (18) in a subsequent meeting, in preparation for public consultations.
NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that at its next meeting, it would continue the clause by clause 6.1 examination of the Bill, together with the relevant stakeholders’ comments.

The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Thursday 6.2 March 05, 2021 at 2:30 p.m.

Page 4 of 8 ADJOURNMENT 7.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

7.2 The adjournment was taken at 5:46 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.


March 01, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 5 of 8 CLAUSE BY CLAUSE CONSIDERATION OF THE BILL Clause 18 – Chapter 11A repealed and substituted PROPOSED SECTION 141 – ESTABLISHMENT OF THE TOBAGO LEGISLATURE Appendix Description 141B Stakeholder Comments Reginald Dumas The current number of elected Assemblymen is twelve.

Why the proposed increase to fifteen?

Does the Elections and Boundaries Commission have any role to play in this matter?
And why four Councillors?

141 G (2) and (3) Reginald Dumas In section 78 of the Constitution, the power to authorise acting appointments resides with the President.

Are the Executive Council and Chief Secretary now on par with the President within Tobago?

And if the Chief Secretary, while “absent from Tobago”, is only in Trinidad, why should there be, in effect, an acting Chief Secretary?

(Unless of course, Tobago is really an independent state).
Also, why is such as acting person to discharge ony “such…functions…as (the Chief Secretary) may specify”?

Could all this add up to a dictatorship in the making?

141 (O) Reginald Dumas There is a significant omission here, which is a provision on disqualification because of voluntary acquisition of another country’s citizenship.

This must be included (see section 141 AA (2) (a) re membership of the People’s House).

Also sub-section (2) (e ) is unclear.
is must Committee Deliberation The Committee noted that fiftten the number proposed in the Bill and that irrespective of the choice of a unicameral or bicameral legislature the following be observed: the majority party would retain the of majority number Assemblymen and the number of members must be sufficient to populate the various committees The Committee observed that the powers given to the Chief Secretary should also be extended to the individual acting in his stead in alignment with constitutional similar an provisions for in the individual acting Prime Minister’s stead.
The also Committee agreed that an Acting Chief Secretary would not be appointed the Chief if Secretary is in Trinidad and clause would be the state to amended “Trinidad and Tobago.” The Committee noted that such provisions already the existed Representation of the People Act, Chap.

2:01 in Page 6 of 8 141 (P) (1)-(3) Reginald Dumas 141 (P) (1) (2)- “Other” than what?

141 (P) (3)- A letter to be sent to the Minister of Finance on this matter?

141 R (2) (a) Reginald Dumas: Why “person” or “party”?
Why not “party” only?

141S(3) Reginald Dumas There is no earlier mention of the Clerk of the Bill.

This should be rectified.

Also, in accordance with section 141 L, should there not also be publication in the Tobago Gazette?

141 T (2) 141 U Reginald Dumas If Tobago really has internal self-government, why is it necessary why is it necessary to have consultation with the Prime Minister on a by- election date?

This section largely reflects section 21 of the current THA Act.
However, sub-section 5 of that section is omitted here.

Why?

Reginald Dumas What is the reason for a People’s House?

What are its definition and functions?


If seven of its members are to be elected by parishes, on what basis will candidates With respect to Section the 141 (P) (1)-(3) resolved Committee to defer a decision on whether these provisions should be included in the Constitution a Companion Act or The Committee expressed that the option to elect Councillors temporary should be included and the CPC acknowledged that such an amendment was drafted at Section 141 (M) of the Bill for members’ consideration.
The also Committee agreed to delete “party.” The Committee was informed that publications and Bills published in the Gazette are not signed by Presiding Officers.

The Committee sought further clarification on who should sign the notice of a declaration of a vacancy to be sent to the President.

further The Committee that a Tobago agreed be Gazette will but established publications of Bills would be in the Trinidad and Tobgao Gazette.
There was no objection to the this retention of provision not The Committee agreed to proceed with the option of a unicameral legislature.

Page 7 of 8 campaign, seeing that Assemblymen are elected on a political party basis?

Is it true that official consideration is being given to the election of the members by an Electoral College?

If true, could details be given?

Will elections to the Assembly and the People’s House be held on the same day?

Who elects the six members?

On what basis?


In the Fifth Schedule (to which this section refers), why are the “tourism sector” and the “services sector” listed separately from the “commercial business sector” of which they are a part?

In the absence of campaign finance reform, what might be the influence of unelected businesspersons on the Executive Council, for instance, re contract awards?

Why a “legal sector?” Why not an “education sector”?
Reginald Dumas Why is it necessary to specify that the Chairman of the People’s House is not to be “a member of the Executive Council”?

How could he/she be?

Why should the Chairman be ex offico a Justice of the Peace Reginald Dumas Who selects the temporary Chairman?

N/A Reginald Dumas Which Gazette?

141 W (1) 141 W (2) 141 X (1) 141 Z (1) 141 AB (1) Reginald Dumas Is this realistic?

141 AM 141 AN (2) Reginald Dumas Within Trinidad as well, or only within Tobago?
Reginald Dumas The implementation of this subsection is likely to cause great confusion The Committee clarified that references to the Gazette would signify the Trinidad Tobago and Gazette The Committee deferred this issue with a view to re- engage Tobago the stakeholders for clarity on the matter The reference would apply to Tobago only; when This matter would be deferred the Committee deliberates on the sections of the Bill relevant to the Tobago Service Commission.
Page 8 of 8 MINUTES OF THE 9TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON THURSDAY MARCH 04, 2021 AT 3:03 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Member (and Chairman for the Day) Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Secretariat Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Sharla Elcock Mrs. Angelique Massiah Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Secretary Assistant Secretary Parliamentary Legal Officer Researcher Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mr. Jovan Hunte Parliamentary Counsel I Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Parliamentary Counsel I Legal Officer II Ms. Janelle Smith Sharri Paul Legal Officer II Law Reform Commission Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Chairman ABSENT / EXCUSED Page 1 of 24 Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Member Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN FOR THE DAY The Assistant Secretary informed members that, in the absence of the Chairman, the 1.1 Committee was required to elect a Chairman for the day in accordance with Standing Orders 112(4) of the House of Representatives and 102(4) of the Senate.
The Assistant Secretary invited nominations for the position of Chairman for the day.

1.2 Mr. De Freitas was nominated on a motion moved by Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe and seconded by Dr. Dillon-Remy.

There being no other nominations, the Assistant Secretary declared Mr. De Freitas the 1.3 duly elected Chairman for the day.

1.4 Mr. De Freitas assumed the Chair, called the meeting to order at 3:03 p.m. and welcomed all present.
ANNOUNCEMENTS 2.1 The Chairman indicated that Mrs. Robinson-Regis and Dr. Deyalsingh requested to be excused from the meeting.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Eighth Meeting held on February 18, 3.1 2021.
3.2 The Committee agreed to delete the chapeau at paragraph Section 5.3 of the Minutes and substitute the following: “Subject to further consultations with Tobago Stakeholders, the Committee agreed to the following preliminary decisions.” The Minutes, as amended, were confirmed on a motion moved by Ms. Cudjoe and 3.3 seconded by Dr. Dillon- Remy.
MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 4.1 4.1 The Chairman once again reminded Members to send their comments on the role and composition of the proposed Fiscal Review Commission (FRC) to the Secretariat in preparation of the Committee’s imminent deliberations on the financial provisions.

Page 2 of 24 Paragraphs 4.2-4.3 4.2 Rawi and the Ministry of Finance had not yet been received.
The Chairman advised that submissions on the Bill’s Financial Provisions from Mr. Al Paragraph 4.4 4.3 The Chairman advised Members that the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC) submitted updated options re Clause 18, proposed sections 141A to 141AA, as well as Clause 17, proposed sections 120 and 121, for the Committee’s consideration which were uploaded to Rotunda.
CONTINUATION OF THE CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF THE BILL The Tobago Legislature – continuation The Chairman drew the Committee’s attention to the Clause 18 Sections 141A to 5.1 141AA (the CPC’s redraft) (See Appendix to these Minutes) 5.2 Discussions ensued.

5.3 The Committee continued deliberations on clause 18 focusing primarily on provisions not yet considered.
Subject to further consultations with the Tobago Stakeholders, the Committee agreed to the following preliminary decisions: (i) (ii) (iii) (iv) (v) (vi) Proposed Section 141C: Committee agreed with the draft.

Proposed Section 141E(5): The Committee agreed with the draft.

Proposed Section 141F: The Committee agreed with the draft.

The CPC to advise whether reference be made to the Fourth Schedule to ensure clarity.

Proposed Section 141G- 141H: The Committee agreed with the draft.
However, the CPC was requested to ensure that the prescription for the number of members reflect the established practice in the National Parliament.

Proposed Section 141M: The CPC to redraft this clause and include the wording of section 44(4) of the Constitution.
Proposed Section 141S: With regard to 141S(1), CPC to redraft this clause to include wording similar to Section 141(2) of the Constitution, to provide for the report of the Salaries Review Commission, in relation to the Tobago House of Assembly, to be laid in the Tobago House of Assembly.

(vii) Proposed Section 141T: CPC to delete the portion in Proposed Section 141T(3)(b) which does not apply to a unicameral legislature.
(viii) Proposed Section 141U: proposed section 141U(2) shall now read “The (x) (ix) President shall”.

Proposed Section 141V: The original wording of this clause was approved.

[Clause 141S (3) of the original bill.]

Proposed Section 141X: CPC to conduct further research on the date of the election after the dissolution of the House of Assembly.

(xi) Proposed Section 141Y: Committee agreed to the draft.

(xii) Proposed Section 141Z: Committee agreed to the draft.
(xiii) Proposed Section 141AA: Committee agreed to the draft.

Page 3 of 24 The Tobago Service Commission 5.4 The Chairman drew the Committee’s attention to the CPC’s draft option for Clause 17 having regard to Stakeholders’ comments.

The Committee agreed with the proposed redraft, subject to further consultation.
The Committee further agreed that: (i) Re: the proposed Section 120 (1) and (2): to consider further advice from the Attorney General on the expansion of the Public Service Commission; and (ii) Re: the proposed Section 121 (5A): to engage with the Tobago Stakeholders regarding the post of the Chief Professional Advisors and the desire to have office holders appointed in consultation with the Chief Secretary.

Policy Issues 5.5 issues which require the input of the Government.
The Committee requested the Secretary to draft a list of unresolved critical policy NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that at its next meeting, it would continue the clause by clause 6.1 examination of the Bill as follows – (i) Clauses 19 and 20; and (ii) The Financial Provisions of Clause 18 together with the relevant stakeholders’ comments.
The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Thursday 6.2 March 11, 2021 at 3:00 p.m. ADJOURNMENT 7.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

7.2 The adjournment was taken at 5:41 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.

March 05, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 4 of 24 THE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 Appendix Chapter 11A repealed and substituted 18.
Chapter 11A of the Constitution is repealed and the following Chapter is substituted: “CHAPTER 11A SELF-GOVERNMENT OF TOBAGO Establishment of the Tobago Legislature 141A.

(1) There shall be a Tobago Legislature which shall consist of the President and the House of Assembly.

(2) Subject to sections 5 and 53(2), the Tobago Legislature shall have power to make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago.
(3) A law in force before the coming into force of this section shall continue to apply to Tobago, until such time as it is replaced by a Tobago Statute and until any existing law in relation to matters for Tobago is replaced by a Tobago Statute, the existing law shall apply in accordance with the powers and functions of the Tobago Legislature.

(4) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Tobago Legislature shall have such other powers and functions in relation to Tobago as may be prescribed.
(5) The House of Assembly shall be constituted by a Presiding Officer and such other members qualified and appointed in accordance with section 141B.

(6) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws for Tobago shall, except where otherwise authorised by statute, be exercised by Bills passed by the House of Assembly and assented to by the President, and Bills so passed and assented to shall be styled “Tobago Statutes”.
(7) When a Bill is presented to the President he shall signify that he assents or that he withholds assent to the said Bill.

(8) A Bill passed by the Tobago Legislature Page 5 of 24 may be assented to during the period occurring between the end of one session of the Tobago Legislature and the beginning of the next or at any subsequent time during the life of the Tobago Legislature.
(9) A Bill passed by the Tobago Legislature shall not become a Tobago Statute unless it has been duly this passed and assented Constitution.

in accordance with to (10) The Tobago Legislature shall publish Tobago Statutes in the Gazette.
(11) A Tobago Statute shall have effect in Tobago, Little Tobago, St. Giles Island, Marble Island, Goat Island, Sisters Island and such area of the archipelagic waters of Trinidad and Tobago, including any islands, the seabed and the subsoil, that lies within eleven miles from the low water- mark of Tobago.
(12) Except on the recommendation or with the consent of the Tobago Executive Council, the House of Assembly shall not – (a) proceed upon a Money Bill, including any amendment to a Bill, which in the opinion of the person presiding, makes provision for any of the following purposes: (i) for imposing or increasing any tax; (ii) for imposing or increasing any charge on the revenues or other funds of Tobago or for such charge altering any otherwise than by reducing it; or (ii) for compounding or remitting any debt due to Tobago; (b) proceed upon any motion, including any amendment to a motion, the effect of which, in the opinion of the person Page 6 of 24 presiding, would be to make provision for any of the purposes aforesaid; or (c) receive any petition which in the opinion of the person presiding, requests that provision be made for any of the purposes aforesaid.
(13) In this section- (a) “Money Bill” means a public Bill which, in the opinion of the Presiding Officer in the Tobago Legislature, contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the following matters, namely: (i) the imposition, repeal, remission alteration or regulation of taxation; (ii)the imposition, for the payment of debt or other financial purposes, of charges on public money or the variation or repeal of any such charges; (iii) the grant of money to the State in Tobago or to any authority or person, or the variation or revocation of any such grant; (iv) the appropriation, receipt, custody, investment, issue or audit of accounts of public money; (v) the raising or guarantee of any loan or the repayment thereof, or the establishment, alteration, administration or abolition of any sinking fund provided in connection with any such loan; or (vi) subordinate matters incidental to any of this referred in to the matters subsection; and (b) the expressions “taxation”, “debt”, “public money” and “loan” do not include any taxation imposed, debt incurred or money Page 7 of 24 Composition of the House of Assembly provided or loan raised by any local authority or body for local purposes.
141B.
(1) The House of Assembly shall consist of – (a) fifteen Assemblymen elected at an election held in accordance with the Representation of the People Act and is qualified to be an elector under section 12 of the Representation of the People Act, or such other number of Assemblymen as corresponds with the number of electoral districts as provided for by an Order made by the President; (b) five Councillors appointed by the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary; (c) three Councillors appointed by the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Minority Leader; (d) two persons appointed by the President in his discretion from outstanding persons, resident in Tobago, from economic or social or community organisations and other major fields of endeavour; and (e) a Presiding Officer who may or may not be an Assemblyman, who shall not be a- (i) member of Council; or the Tobago Executive (ii) person appointed under paragraph (d), and who shall be elected in accordance with section 141E.
(2) Where a Councillor is incapable of performing his functions as a Councillor by virtue of the provisions of section 141R (2) or has temporarily vacated his office by reason of- Page 8 of 24 (a) his absence from Trinidad and Tobago; or (b) illness, the President may appoint a person qualified for appointment as a Councillor to be temporarily a member of the House of Assembly during such vacation of office, suspension, absence or illness.

Powers, privileges and immunities 141C.


(1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the House of Assembly may by resolution, make Standing Orders to regulate its own business and such Standing Orders shall be published in the Gazette 12 (2) Subject to the Rules and Standing Orders of the Assembly, there shall be freedom of speech in the Chamber of the Assembly.
(3) No civil or criminal proceedings may be instituted against any member or other person for words spoken before, or written in a report of, the Assembly or a committee thereof.

(4) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of the Assembly, Members and committees of the Assembly, shall be such as may from time to time be prescribed by Parliament and until so defined shall be those that apply to the House of Representatives and to its members and committees.
Swearing in of Members of the Tobago Legislature 141D.

The President shall administer the oath of office set out in the First Schedule to Members of the Tobago Legislature at a meeting held for such purpose, not later than three days after the date of the election or appointment, as the case may be.

Election of Presiding Officer 141E.


(1) When the House of Assembly first meets after the election and before it proceeds to the dispatch of any other business, it shall elect a person to be the Presiding Officer of the House, and if the office of Presiding Officer falls vacant at any time before the next dissolution, the House shall, as soon as practicable, elect another person to that office.
(2) When the House of Assembly first meets after the election and before it proceeds to the dispatch of any Page 9 of 24 other business except the election of the Presiding Officer, the House shall elect a person to be the Deputy Presiding Officer of the House who is not a Secretary or an Administrator or a person appointed by the President under section 141B, and if the office of Presiding Officer falls vacant at any time before the next dissolution, the House shall, as soon as practicable, elect another person to that office.
(3) Where any person who is not a Member of the Tobago Legislature is elected to be a Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly he shall, by virtue of holding office of Presiding Officer, be a member of the House of Assembly in addition to the Assemblymen.

(4) The President shall administer the oath to the Presiding Officer and Deputy Presiding Officer as set out in the First Schedule.

(5) The Presiding Officer shall ex officio be a Justice of the Peace.
(6) A person shall vacate the office of Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officer – (a) in the case of a Presiding Officer elected from among the Assemblymen, or in the case of the Deputy Presiding Officer where he ceases to be a member of the House of Assembly, so however that the Presiding Officer shall not vacate his office by reason only that he has ceased to be a member of the House of Assembly on a dissolution of the Tobago Legislature, until the House of Assembly first meets after that dissolution; and (b) in the case of a Presiding Officer elected from among persons who are not members the House of Assembly – (i) when the House first meets after any dissolution of the Tobago Legislature; (ii) where he ceases to be a citizen of Trinidad and Tobago; or Page 10 of 24 (iii) where any circumstances arise that would cause him to be disqualified for election as a member of the House by virtue of section 141O or any law.
(7) Where the office of Presiding Officer is vacant or the Presiding Officer is for any reason unable to perform any function conferred upon him by section 141A, that function may be performed by the Deputy Presiding Officer.
141F (1) In addition to any other Select Committee which the House of Assembly is empowered to appoint under this Constitution and its Standing Orders, the House shall, within one calendar month after the - (a) commencement of (Tobago (Amendment) Government) Act, 2020; and the Constitution Self- (c) first meeting of the House of Assembly after any election, or such time as the House of Assembly may resolve not being later than three months thereafter, appoint four Select Committees, to inquire into and report to the House in respect of— (i) all Divisions under the Tobago Executive Council; (ii) authorities Tobago Statutes; and created by Appointment of certain Select Committees owned enterprises (iii) or controlled by or on behalf of the Tobago Island Government or which received funding from the State of more than two-thirds of its total income in any one year.
(2) A Committee appointed for the purposes set out in subsection (1) may— Page 11 of 24 (a) appoint sub-committees from among its members and delegate any of its powers to such sub- committee; (b) adjourn from place to place; (c) appoint specialist advisers to assist them in their deliberations; (d) subject to any order of the House of Assembly or resolution of a the sitting of a Committee, Committee shall be held in public; and (e) a Committee appointed for the purposes set out in paragraph (a) shall make a report of its opinion and observations which shall be laid in the House of Assembly.
(3) A Select Committee in exercising its powers under subsection (2) shall not enquire into the validity of the exercise of the functions of a body referred to in subsection (2)(a) nor modify, alter, rescind or in any way interfere with the decisions of any such body.

(4) The Standing Orders of the House of Assembly shall apply to a Committee appointed under this section.

Public Accounts Committee 141G.


(1) There shall be a Public Accounts Committee which shall consist of not less than four nor more than six members.

(2) The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee shall be a member of the Minority, if any, and if willing to act.

(3) The Chairman and other members may comprise an equal number of elected representatives and appointed representatives as the House may determine.
Page 12 of 24 (4) Where no member of the Minority is willing to act as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, one of the representatives appointed pursuant to 141B (1) (d) willing to serve shall be appointed Chairman.
(5) The Public Accounts Committee shall consider and report to the House of Assembly on— (a) appropriation accounts of moneys expended out of sums granted by the House of Assembly to meet the public expenditure of Tobago; (b the report of the Auditor General on any such accounts, balance sheets and other financial statements.
(c) the balance sheets, other financial statements and all audited accounts and audited reports of all enterprises that are owned or controlled by or on behalf of Island Government; and the Tobago (d) such other accounts as may be referred to the Committee by the House of Assembly or as are authorised or to be considered by the committee under any other enactment.
required (d (6) For the purposes of subsection (5) and section 141F (1)(b)(iii) an enterprise shall be taken to be controlled by the Tobago Island Government if the Tobago Island Government or anybody controlled by the Tobago Island Government — (a) exercises or is entitled to exercise control directly or indirectly over the affairs of the enterprise; (b) is entitled to appoint a majority of the Board of the directors of Directors of the enterprise; or Page 13 of 24 Public Administrations and Appropriations Committee (c) holds at least fifty per cent of the ordinary share capital of the enterprise, as the case may be.
141H.

(1) There shall a Public Administration and Appropriations Committee which shall consist of not less than four nor more than six members.

(2) The Chairman Public Administration and Appropriations Committee shall be a member of the Minority, if any, and if willing to act.
the of (3) The Chairman and other members may comprise an equal number of elected representatives and appointed representatives as the House may determine (4) Where no member of the Minority is willing to act as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, one of the representatives appointed pursuant to 141B (1) (d) willing to serve shall be appointed Chairman.
(5) The and Appropriations Committee shall consider and report to the House of Assembly on— Public Administration (a) the budgetary expenditure of Tobago Island Government agencies to ensure that expenditure is embarked upon in accordance with House of Assembly approval; (b) the budgetary expenditure of the Tobago Island Government agencies as it occurs and keeps the House of the Assembly budget being implemented; and informed of how allocation is (c) the administration of Tobago Island Government agencies to determine hindrances to their efficiency and to make recommendations to the Tobago Island Government for improvement of public administration.
Page 14 of 24 Election of Chief Secretary and Deputy Chief Secretary 141I.
Where there is occasion for the election of a Chief Secretary and a Deputy Chief Secretary following the election of a Presiding Officer referred to in section 141E, the Assemblymen shall elect from among their number, the Chief Secretary and the Deputy Chief Secretary in accordance with section 141N and following such election, the President shall administer to the Chief Secretary and the Deputy Chief Secretary respectively, the oath of office set out in the First Schedule.
Vacancy in office of Chief Secretary 141J.

(1) Whenever the position of Chief Secretary becomes vacant in accordance with this Constitution, the Deputy Chief Secretary shall assume office as Chief Secretary.
(2) If the office of Chief Secretary becomes vacant in circumstances in which the office of the Deputy Chief Secretary is also vacant in accordance with this Constitution, the functions of the office of Chief Secretary shall, until such time as a new Chief Secretary or Deputy Chief Secretary assumes office in accordance with this section, be performed by such Secretary who is an Assemblyman as the Tobago Executive Council shall appoint.
(3) Whenever the Chief Secretary is absent from Trinidad and Tobago or considers it desirable to do so by reason of illness or any other cause he may, by directions in writing, authorise – (a) the Deputy Chief Secretary; or (b) during any period when there is no Deputy Chief Secretary some other Secretary who is also an Assemblyman, to discharge such of the functions of the office of Chief Secretary as he may specify, and the Deputy Chief Secretary or other Secretary may discharge those functions until his authority is revoked by the Chief Secretary.
(4) Where the Chief Secretary is unable to authorise a person to discharge the functions of his office, then the function shall be performed by Deputy Chief Secretary.
(5) Where the Deputy Chief Secretary is unable to act for any reason then the discharge of the function of the office of Chief Secretary shall be performed by another Secretary who is also an Page 15 of 24 Assemblyman, and who shall be appointed by the President on the advice of the Tobago Executive Counsel to continue to discharge the functions until- (a) the authority is revoked by the President acting on the advice of the Chief Secretary; or (b) on the next dissolution of the Assembly.
Appointment of Minority Leader 141K.

(1) Immediately after administering the oaths of office to the Chief Secretary and the Deputy Chief Secretary under section 141F the President shall appoint as Minority Leader the Assemblyman who, in his opinion, commands the support of the largest number of Assemblymen who do not support the Chief Secretary.
(2) The office of Minority Leader shall become vacant where– (a) he resigns his office; or (b) the holder thereof ceases to be a member of the House of Assembly for any cause other than a dissolution of the House of Assembly.
(3) Where the office of Minority Leader is vacant, whether because there is no member of the House of Assembly so qualified for appointment or because no one qualified for appointment is willing to be appointed, or because the Minority Leader has resigned his office or for any other reason, any provision in this Constitution requiring consultation with the Minority Leader shall, in so far as it requires such consultation, be of no effect.
(4) The President shall administer to the Minority Leader the oath set out in the First Schedule.

Appointment of Councillors 141L.

(1) Immediately after the appointment of the Minority Leader under section 141K, the Presiding Officer shall, acting in accordance with the advice of – (a) the Chief Secretary, appoint [three] Councillors; and (b) the Minority Leader, appoint [one] Page 16 of 24 Councillor.1 (2) The President shall administer to each Councillor the oath set out in the First Schedule.
Temporary appointments 141 M. Where a Councillor or a Member appointed by the President under section 141B has temporarily vacated his office or is incapable of performing his functions as an Assemblyman or by reason of- (a) his absence from Trinidad and Tobago; or (b) illness, the President may appoint a person qualified for appointment as a Councillor or a Member appointed by the President under section 141B to be temporarily a member of the Assembly during such vacation of office, suspension, absence or illness.
Elections procedure 141N.

(1) In the case of elections held under section 141E, in relation to the Deputy Presiding Officer and section 141I, the Presiding Officer shall receive nominations of candidates from any Assemblyman who has been already sworn, except that no Assemblyman shall nominate more than one candidate for the same office, whether as proposer or seconder.
(2) Where not more than one candidate is nominated for an office, the Presiding Officer shall declare that candidate duly elected, but where more than one is nominated, election shall be by secret ballot.

(3) The person elected to an office shall be the candidate receiving the highest number of votes, but where there is an equality of votes, the ballot shall be retaken in respect of the relevant candidates.
(4) Where on the second ballot the equality of votes continues, the Presiding Officer shall exercise a casting vote.

Publication of names of members of the House of Assembly 141O.

Upon the appointments to the House of Assembly, the names of the Members shall be published in the Trinidad and Tobago Gazette and in at least one daily newspaper circulating in Trinidad and in Tobago and may be published electronically or by any other means.2 Assumption 141P.
(1) No person elected or appointed to the Assembly shall assume the duties of his office until he is administered the relevant oath of office.

1 The numbers of Councillors to correspond to section 141B when settled.

2 Consideration to be given for this provision to be placed in the Standing Orders of the House.

Page 17 of 24 Time limit for swearing in (2) The term of office of an Assemblyman commences on the day on which he is elected or appointed to office.

141Q.
141Q.

(1) Where a person elected or appointed to serve in the Assembly is not present at the meeting referred to in section 141D, he shall be administered the oath of office by the President at a meeting convened for that purpose and held not later than one month after the date of his election or appointment to office or, subject to subsection (3), at the next ordinary meeting at which he is present.
(2) Subject to subsection (3), where at the expiration of one month from his election or appointment, the person elected or appointed to serve in the Assembly has not taken the oath of office, he is disqualified from assuming the duties and responsibilities of an Assemblyman and his seat shall fall vacant.
(3) The Presiding Officer may resolve before the expiration of the period of one month of the election or appointment of a person elected or appointed to serve in the Assembly who has not taken the oath of office, either on its own motion or at the request of that person, to extend the period of one month to a period not exceeding three months, at the end of which extended period, should the person not be sworn, his seat shall fall vacant.
(4) Notice of any extension of time granted in accordance with subsection (3) shall be immediately made to the President by the Presiding Officer and announced to the House of Assembly.

Qualification for membership 141R.


(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person is qualified to be elected as an Assemblyman in a primary election or on a bye-election or as a Presiding Officer or appointed as a Councillor or as a Member if that person – (a) is a citizen of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago; (b) is qualified to be an elector under section 12 of the Representation of the People Act; and (c) resides in Tobago.
(2) A person not being a citizen of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is disqualified from being elected or appointed as a Member, or being a citizen if he – (a) has been adjudged or otherwise declared bankrupt under any law in force in any country and has not been discharged; (b) is a mentally ill person within the meaning of the Mental Health Act; Page 18 of 24 (c) is under sentence of death imposed on him by a Court in any country or is serving sentence of imprisonment, by whatever name called, exceeding twelve months imposed on him by such a Court or substituted by competent authority for some other sentence imposed on him by such a Court or is under such a sentence of imprisonment, the execution of which has been suspended; (d) is disqualified from being elected under sections 31 and 32 of the Representation of the People Act; (e) holds, or is acting in, an office of the Assembly as may be prescribed, but a person is not disqualified by reason only of receiving, or being entitled to receive, payment by way of travelling or subsistence allowances or a refund of out-of- pocket expenses; or (f) is a member of the Senate or the House of Representatives or of a Municipal or Regional Corporation.
Remuneration of members 141S.

(1) The salaries, allowances and other conditions of service of the Members of the House of Assembly shall be reviewed by the Salaries Review Commission in accordance with section 141 of this Constitution.

(2) The Assembly shall, in accordance with the Financial Rules made under section 141AL, establish a pension scheme for the Members of the House of Assembly.

(3) The salaries and allowances payable to the members of the House of Assembly are a charge on the Tobago Fund.
(4) Section 3(5) of the Constitution applies to the members of the House of Assembly.

(5) A Secretary or the Presiding Officer shall not engage in any trade, business, occupation or other undertaking for profit or remuneration other than that of serving as Secretary or the Presiding Officer.

Tenure in office of Assemblymen 141T.


(1) Where the House of Assembly passes a resolution, supported by the votes of a majority of Assemblymen, declaring that it has no confidence in the Chief Secretary and the Chief Secretary does not within seven days of the passing of such a resolution either resign or advise the President to dissolve House of Assembly, the President shall revoke the appointment of the Chief Secretary.
Page 19 of 24 (2) The Chief Secretary shall also vacate his office— (a) when after any dissolution of the House of Assembly he is informed by the President that the President is about to reappoint him as Chief Secretary or to appoint another person as Chief Secretary; or (b) where for any reason other than a dissolution of the House of Assembly he ceases to be a member of the House of Assembly.
(3) A Secretary other than the Chief Secretary shall vacate his office- (a) when any person is appointed or reappointed as Chief Secretary; (b) where for any reason other than a dissolution of the House of Assembly he ceases to be a member of the House of Assembly [from among the members of which he was appointed3]; or (c) where his appointment is revoked by the President acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary.
(4) Where at any time the Chief Secretary is required under section 141R(2)4 to cease to perform his functions as a member of the House of Assembly, he shall cease during such time to perform any of his functions as Chief Secretary.

(5) Where at any time a Secretary other than the Chief Secretary is required under section 141V(1) to cease to perform his functions, he shall cease during such time to perform any of his functions as Secretary.

Vacancy of office of an Assemblyman 141U.


(1) Subject to section 141V, the seat of an Assemblyman becomes vacant where he – (a) submits a written resignation to the Presiding Officer or, in the case of the Presiding Officer, where he submits a written resignation to the President or his appointment as Presiding Officer in accordance with revoked subsection (2); is 3 Appears to relate to members of the Senate in the T&T Constitution at section 77(3)(b) and may not be relevant in a unicameral legislature.
4 NB s 77(4) of T&T Constitution and s49(3) Page 20 of 24 (b) is absent from ordinary sittings of the Assembly for such period and in such circumstances as may be prescribed in the Standing Orders of the Assembly; and (c) ceases to possess any of the qualifications required by section 141R (1) or is or becomes disqualified from being a Member for any of the reasons set out in section 141R (2).
(2) The President [shall/may] revoke – (a) the appointment of a Councillor on the advice of the person who nominated him or by reason of any of the matters set out in subsection (1); and (b) the appointment of the Presiding Officer following a vote of no confidence against him supported by a majority of the Members.

Declaration of vacancy 141V.


(1) The Assembly shall formally declare a vacancy in its membership- (a) at the first meeting of the Assembly following the vacating of a seat by virtue of section 141Q (2) or (3) or section 141U(l) and (2); or (b) on the adoption of a motion of the Members based on the recommendation of a committee5 appointed for the purpose of section 141U (1)(c).

(2) A vacancy pursuant to subsection (1) shall have effect from the date on which it is so declared.
(3) The notice of a declaration of vacancy shall be signed by the Clerk and sent forthwith to the President and a copy thereof shall be published in the Trinidad and Tobago Gazette and in at least one daily newspaper circulating in Trinidad and in Tobago and may be published electronically or by any other means.

Filling of vacancies 141W.


(1) Where the President is notified that the seat of an Assemblyman has become vacant, the President shall, subject to subsections (2) and (3), issue a writ addressed to the Returning Officer of the corresponding electoral area for the holding of a bye-election for the election of an Assemblyman to fill the vacancy.

5 How is the committee to be constituted?


Page 21 of 24 (2) The President shall, after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary, fix the date of a bye-election for the election of an Assemblyman, which date shall not be earlier than the expiration of two months after the declaration of the vacancy nor later than the expiration of three months after that declaration.
(3) No bye-election for the election of an Assemblyman shall be held within a period of one year prior to the holding of a primary election and the President may decline to issue a writ under subsection (1) if the vacancy is declared within one year from the date on which the Assembly is due to stand dissolved in accordance with section 141X.
(4) Where the seat of the Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officer is declared vacant, an election to fill that vacancy shall be held at the meeting of the Assembly next following the declaration of the vacancy.

(5) A person elected or appointed to the Assembly to fill a vacancy shall be administered the relevant oath of office by the Presiding Officer or, where the person is elected to the office of Presiding Officer, by the Deputy Presiding Officer.

Dissolution of the Tobago Legislature 141X.


(1) The Tobago Legislature shall continue for four years from the date of its first sitting after any primary election, and shall then stand dissolved.

(2) On the first Monday of the month after the dissolution of the Tobago Legislature, election shall be held for the House of Assembly.

The Tobago Executive Council 141Y.
(1) The Tobago Executive Council provided for in section 75(1A) shall consist of a Chief Secretary, a Deputy Chief Secretary and such number of other Secretaries, one of whom shall be a Secretary of Legal Affairs who shall be an Attorney-at-law admitted to practise in Trinidad and Tobago, appointed in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary from among the Members of the House of Assembly as the President acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary may appoint.
(2) A person nominated for appointment to the Tobago Executive Council as a Secretary shall be duly appointed by the President.

(3) The President shall administer to a Secretary the oath set out in the First Schedule.

(4) The functions of the Chief Secretary and the other Secretaries shall be prescribed.
(5) The President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary, may, by directions in writing, assign to a Secretary responsibility Page 22 of 24 for any business of the Tobago Island Government, including the administration of any Division of the Tobago Island Government and shall administer to a Secretary the oath set out in the First Schedule.
(6) Where a Secretary is incapable of performing his functions by reason of his absence from Trinidad and Tobago or by reason of illness, the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary, may appoint another person to act in the office of such Secretary during such absence or illness.
(7) Where any Secretary has been assigned responsibility for any Division of the Tobago Island Government, he shall exercise general direction and control over that Division and, subject to such direction and control, the Division shall be under the supervision of an Administrator whose office shall be a public office.
(8) For the purposes of this section – (a) two or more Divisions of the Tobago Island Government may be placed under the supervision of one Administrator; or (b) two or more Administrators may supervise any Division of the Tobago Island Government assigned to a Secretary.

(9) The Tobago Executive Council shall continue to discharge its functions during any period that the Tobago Legislature is dissolved.

Executive authority of the Tobago Executive Council 141Z.
(1) There shall be a Tobago Executive Council which shall have the general direction and control of the Tobago Island Government and shall be collectively responsible therefor to the Tobago Legislature.

(2) The Chief Secretary may if invited by the Prime Minister so to do, attend meetings of Cabinet in order that the Chief Secretary may represent the interest of Tobago in any matter having or likely to have an effect on Tobago.
(3) The Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary shall hold quarterly meetings with a view to formulating administrative and legislative mechanisms for the promotion of harmony in the affairs of Trinidad and Tobago.

Providing services in Tobago 141AA.


(1) In exercising its responsibility authority pursuant to the Fourth Schedule, the Government may by way of Memorandum of Understanding Page 23 of 24 authorise the Tobago Island Government to act on behalf of the Government in respect of any of its responsibilities in Tobago.

(2) The Government in the delivery in Tobago of services to the public shall give due consideration to the views of the Tobago Island Government.
(3) Where services fall within the responsibility of the Tobago Island Government or where the Tobago Island Government acts on behalf of the Government pursuant to subsection (1) the services shall be administered by the Tobago Island Government.

(4) Where a statutory authority or a State enterprise provides services in Tobago that authority or enterprise shall in providing services act in accordance with the policies or programmes of the Tobago Island Government.
Page 24 of 24 MINUTES OF THE 10TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON THURSDAY MARCH 11, 2021 AT 3:03 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Member (and Chairman for the Day) Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Secretariat Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Parliamentary Legal Officer Mrs. Angelique Massiah Researcher Mr. Justin Jarrette Researcher Ms. Ria Rampersad Secretary Ministry of Finance Mr. Colm Imbert Minister of Finance Mrs. Suzette Taylor-Lee Chee Mrs. Michelle Durham-Kissoon Permanent Secretary, Investment Permanent Secretary Division Mrs. Muriel Alfred-James Deputy Director, Budgets Division Mr. Anthony Joseph Manager, Economic Management Division (EMD) Ms. Tashay Francis Assistant Manager, EMD Mr. Kyren Greigg Senior Macro-Economic Analyst, EMD Page 1 of 5 Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Ms. Janelle Smith Law Reform Commission Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel I Parliamentary Counsel I Legal Officer II Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer ABSENT / EXCUSED Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Chairman Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN FOR THE DAY 1.1 The Assistant Secretary informed members that, in the absence of the Chairman, the Committee was required to elect a Chairman for the day in accordance with Standing Orders 112(4) of the House of Representatives and 102(4) of the Senate.
1.2 The Assistant Secretary invited nominations for the position of Chairman for the day.

Mr. Nigel De Freitas was nominated on a motion moved by Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe and seconded by Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal.

There being no other nominations, the Assistant Secretary declared Mr. De Freitas the 1.3 duly elected Chairman for the day.

1.4 Mr. De Freitas assumed the Chair, called the meeting to order at 3:03 p.m. and welcomed all present.
ANNOUNCEMENTS 2.1 The Chairman indicated that Mrs. Robinson-Regis and Mr. Rambally requested to be excused from the meeting.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES 3.1 The Committee considered the Minutes of the Ninth Meeting held on March 04, 2021.

The Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Ms. Cudjoe and seconded by Mrs. 3.2 Sagramsingh- Sooklal.
Page 2 of 5 MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 4.2 4.1 The Chairman reminded Members that a team from the Ministry of Finance was invited to the meeting to provide insight and advice regarding the most appropriate means of developing data driven formulae for revenue sharing, for the determination of Tobago’s minimum budgetary allocation and any other matters related to the Financial Provisions.
He advised that the Minister of Finance would lead the team and was present in the Committee’s virtual waiting room.

4.2 The Chairman indicated that an assurance was given by Mr. Al Rawi that his advice on schedule 4 and the financial provisions will be shared with the Committee as soon as possible.

CONTINUATION OF THE CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF THE BILL The Chairman indicated that a matrix of the Committee’s work to date can be found 5.1 on the Committee’s e-repository.
5.2 The Chairman further reminded Members that consultations with Tobago stakeholders are imminent.

He suggested early April and advised that a timetable and other details would be shared soon for members’ comments.

Clause 18- Proposed sections 141 AD-AL- The Financial Provisions Representatives of the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel, the Law Reform Commission and the Ministry of Finance joined the Meeting.
The Chairman welcomed the Minister of Finance and officials from the Ministry of 5.3 Finance, including the Permanent Secretary.

The Minister of Finance delivered his presentation on the proposed section 141AE, 5.4 regarding the minimum budgetary allocation to Tobago.
5.5 In his presentation, the Minister of Finance recommended that if the formula that was used to determine the allocation for Tobago was based on the population size, land mass and geographical challenges then the budgetary allocation should be in the vicinity of 6.8% having regard to the intent of the Bill.

5.6 Discussions ensued.


5.7 Subject to further consultations with Tobago Stakeholders, the Committee agreed, that the provision requiring the Tobago Island Government to send Estimates of Page 3 of 5 Expenditure, in advance to the Ministry of Finance should be deleted, given that that Government will be required to pilot a Tobago Government Appropriation Bill in the House of Assembly which will involve the scrutiny of the Assembly’s Standing Finance Committee.
In regard to the other financial provisions, the Ministry of Finance was requested to 5.8 provide the following to the Committee, by March 25, 2021: a.

Re proposed section 141AD - A position on the Fiscal Review Commission (FRC), including its responsibilities and its composition; and b.

Re proposed section 141AH - 141AL - A submission on the proposed establishment of a Contingency Fund; the financial rules; and rules for borrowing and investing.
Clause 19- Oath of Office for Assemblymen 5.9 The Committee agreed with this clause.

Clause 20- Fourth Schedule 5.10 Following discussions on the proposed Fourth Schedule, the Committee agreed to review this matter after receipt of advice on the list of areas which should fall to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Tobago Legislature and the Tobago Government.

An outside deadline of March 31, 2021 was given to the Minister of Finance and the Attorney General to provide this advice.
5.11 The Chairman requested of the Secretariat an updated list of the other areas for which policy guidance was needed from the government in order for the Committee to make informed decisions.

NEXT MEETING 6.1 The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Thursday March 25, 2021 at 2:30 p.m.

The Committee requested a reworked Bill for its review, based on the Committee’s 6.2 deliberations and the CPC’s revised options.
The Secretariat was mandated to circulate this draft by Tuesday March 23, 2021, two days before the next scheduled meeting.

ADJOURNMENT 7.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

7.2 The adjournment was taken at 5:42 p.m.

Page 4 of 5 I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.
Chairman Secretary March 15, 2021 Page 5 of 5 MINUTES OF THE 11TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON THURSDAY MARCH 25, 2021 AT 3:16 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Mr. Clarence Rambharat Ms. Jearlean John Member Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Assistant Secretary Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Mrs. Angelique Massiah Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Parliamentary Legal Officer Researcher Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Ms. Janelle Smith Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel I Parliamentary Counsel I Legal Officer II Page 1 of 4 Law Reform Commission Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom COMMENCEMENT The Chairman called the meeting to order at 3:16 p.m., welcomed all those present, 1.1 and expressed thanks to Mr. De Freitas for serving in her stead during her absence.
CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES 2.1 The Committee considered the Minutes of the Tenth Meeting held on March 11, 2021.
2.2 The Committee agreed to rephrase paragraph 5.5 as follows: “In his presentation, the Minister of Finance recommended that if the formula that was used to determine the allocation for Tobago was based on the population size, land mass and geographical challenges then the budgetary allocation should be in the vicinity of 6.8% having regard to the intent of the Bill.” 2.3 The Committee agreed to rephrase paragraph 5.10 as follows: “Following discussions on the proposed Fourth Schedule, the Committee agreed to review this matter after receipt of advice on the list of areas which should fall to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Tobago Legislature and the Tobago Government.
An outside deadline of March 31, 2021 was given to the Minister of Finance and the Attorney General to provide this advice.” The Minutes, as amended, were confirmed on a motion moved by Mr. De Freitas and 2.2 seconded by Dr. Dillon-Remy.

MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 5.11 The Chairman indicated that the majority of information relevant to policy guidance 3.3 from the Government was received by the Committee.
Page 2 of 4 Paragraph 6.2 3.4 The Chairman advised that the re-worked Bill containing the preliminary decisions of the Committee was circulated to members on March 23, 2021 and uploaded to the e- repository.
CONTINUATION OF THE CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF THE BILL 3.5 The Chairman drew the Committee’s attention to the Clause by Clause Matrix of preliminary proposals for changes with outstanding policy issues (shared on screen) and advised that this matrix would assist in the examination of the re-worked Bill.
3.6 The Chairman indicated that two aspects of the re-worked Bill remain incomplete:  An examination of a definition of Tobago in the Bill;  An examination of what elements of the Bill should be within the Constitution and what ought to be situated in a companion Bill.

The Committee conducted a review of the re-worked version of the Bill in which the 3.7 following was decided: i. ii.

iii.
iii.

The Preamble should reflect the unitary State; The term Chief Secretary should be Premier to reflect the reformed status of the Tobago Island Government; The Attorney General should review the following provisions, as drafted: a) Proposed Clause 141B(a); b) Proposed Clause 141J; c) Proposed Clause 141X (2); d) Proposed Clause 144; and e) The Fourth and Fifth Schedule.
3.8 The Committee agreed to a re-draft of the Proposed Clause 141AH to remove the requirement for a special majority for the approval in the Assembly of Financial Rules insofar as such a requirement is contrary to good parliamentary practice.

NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Thursday 4.1 April 01, 2021 at 10:30 a.m.
The Drafting team from the office of the CPC was requested to divide the re-worked 4.2 Bill into two (2) Bills – (a) those provisions that should be placed within the Constitution; and (b) those provisions that should be situated in a companion Bill for the Committee’s consideration.

Page 3 of 4 The Committee decided to consider the divided draft Bills as well as the advice and 4.3 feedback of the Ministry of Finance and the Attorney General at its next meeting.
The Committee further agreed that at the next meeting, it will finalise the schedule 4.4 for consultations in Tobago and with other relevant stakeholders.

ADJOURNMENT 5.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

5.2 The adjournment was taken at 5:29 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.
March 26, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 4 of 4 MINUTES OF THE 12TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON THURSDAY APRIL 01, 2021 AT 10:38 A.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Mr. Clarence Rambharat Ms. Jearlean John Member Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Secretariat Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Mrs. Angelique Massiah Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Parliamentary Legal Officer Researcher Researcher Secretary Page 1 of 27 Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Ms. Monique Moses Law Reform Commission Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel I Parliamentary Counsel I Legal Officer I Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member ABSENT / EXCUSED The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom COMMENCEMENT 1.1 The Chairman called the meeting to order at 10:38 a.m. and welcomed all those present.
CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES 2.1 The Committee considered the Minutes of the Eleventh Meeting held on March 25, 2021.

There being no amendments, the Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Ms. Cudjoe and seconded by Mr. Al- 2.2 Rawi.

Page 2 of 27 MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 4.2 The Chairman advised that the exercise to divide the Bill into a Constitution Amendment Bill and a companion Bill was 3.1 still in process and is expected to be completed soon by the CPC officers.
Paragraph 4.3 The Chairman indicated that information that had been requested of the Minister of Finance and the Attorney General 3.2 were received.

CONTINUATION OF THE CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF THE BILL Consideration of the Submission by the Ministry of Finance On the request of the Chairman, Mr. De Freitas led the Committee in a review of the submission of the Minister of Finance 4.1 (See Appendix 1).
The Committee conducted a review of the submission of the Minister of Finance in relation to the financial provisions 4.2 and concluded as follows: i.

Proposed 141AD (1): The Minister’s comments were accepted; ii.

Proposed 141 AD (2): The Minister’s comments were accepted; iii.

Proposed 141 AD (3) (A): The Minister’s comments were noted.

However, the Committee agreed that the 6.8% allocation is to be considered as a floor with the possibility for negotiation via the FRC; iv.
Proposed 141 AD (3) (B): The Minister’s comments were accepted (sub-paragraph to be deleted); v. Proposed 141 AD (3) (C): The Minister’s comments were accepted (sub-paragraph to be deleted); vi.

Proposed 141 AD (3) (D): The Minister’s comments were accepted; Page 3 of 27 vii.

Proposed 141 AD (3) (E): The Minister’s comments were accepted (sub-paragraph to be deleted); viii.

Proposed 141 AD (3) (F): The Minister’s comments were accepted; ix.

Proposed 141 AD (4): The Minister’s comments were accepted; x.
Proposed 141 AD (5): The Minister’s comments were noted.

However, the Committee did not agree as Members were of the view that this sub paragraph will remain relevant insofar as the proposed 6.8% allocation should be reviewable; xi.

Proposed 141 AH: The Minister’s comments were accepted.
However, the Committee agreed that the reference to the 6.8% allocation should be re-drafted to reflect that the cap can change from time to time and that rules related to the proposed Tobago Contingency Fund mirror the national Contingency Fund.

Additionally, there was a general concern that this fund should not be held in a commercial bank; xii.

Proposed 141 AI: The Minister’s comments were accepted; xiii.

Proposed 141 AJ: The Minister’s comments were accepted; xiv.
Proposed 141 AK: The Minister’s comments were accepted; xv.

Proposed 141 AL: The Committee agreed that the Tobago Island Government’s financial rules should be in accord with national financial rules that govern the Exchequer and Audit Act and other general the Financial Regulations.

However, disagreement was expressed that the Minister’s non-objection of the financial rules should be a prerequisite.

Therefore, this aspect of the submission was deferred for later review.
At the end of the discussions on the submissions of the Minister of Finance, the Office of the CPC was requested to draft 4.3 the relevant amendments to the financial provisions, where applicable.
4.4 The Chairman requested Mr. Al Rawi to lead the Committee through his submission (See Appendix II) 4.5 There was a discussion on the submissions of Mr. Al Rawi during which the Committee requested re-drafts of the following clauses and schedules of the Bill by the Office of the CPC in light of the concerns raised by Mr. Al Rawi during his presentation: i. ii.

Proposed clauses 6 (B), 8,9, 10 (A), 11, 19 (new section 144); and Fourth and Fifth Schedules.
Page 4 of 27 4.6 During the meeting, Mr. Rambally informed the Committee that he had written to the Chairman earlier that day regarding the need to resume consultations.

The Chairman confirmed that she was in receipt of a letter from Mr. Rambally, Mr. Indarsingh and Ms. John and advised 4.7 Members that the letter was uploaded to Rotunda and is accessible to all Members.

The letter submitted to the Committee was one seeking an immediate return to consultations with Tobago stakeholders.
However, the Chairman reminded the Members that based on the records of the Committee, consultations with stakeholders in Tobago as well as in Trinidad are imminent.

She referred to the Minutes of the last Meeting (11th Para 4.4) which confirmed the decision of the Committee to finalise the schedule for consultations in Tobago and with other relevant stakeholders at the instant meeting.
The Committee agreed that, upon completion of outstanding work, consultations with Tobago stakeholders will be held 4.8 on the following dates: i. ii.

April 23-25, 2021, and/or April 30-May 02, 2021.

NEXT MEETING 5.1 The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Thursday April 08, 2021 at 3:00 p.m. ADJOURNMENT 6.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

6.2 The adjournment was taken at 1:47 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.


Chairman Secretary Page 5 of 27 06 April, 2021 The Constitutional (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2018 Minister of Finance’s Comments on the Financial Provisions Appendix I Financial Provisions 141AD.
(1) Comments/Proposals 141AD(1) Fiscal Review Commission There shall be established a Fiscal Review Commission We agree with the proposed amendment which shall comprise– (a) The Chairman of the Fiscal Review Commission, who shall be appointed by the President in his discretion after consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Prime Minister; This has been amended.
It is now proposed that the Chairman and Deputy Chairman be the Minister of Finance and the Secretary of Finance (Tobago), respectively, or their proxy; Page 6 of 27 (b) one member appointed by the Tobago Executive Council; and (c) two members appointed by the Cabinet.

(2) The members of the Fiscal Review Commission shall serve for Agreed.

However, a minimum period of two (2) years could be a maximum period of five (5) years.

added.
(3) The responsibilities of the Fiscal Review Commission shall be to – (3) (a) The Minister of Finance has proposed that 6.8 percent (6.8%) of total national expenditure be allocated to Tobago (a) determine and recommend to Parliament the sums required to be appropriated to Tobago in each financial year; annually, incorporating ALL funds that are to be spent in Tobago by the Central Government, State Enterprises and Statutory Authorities; (b) establish a mechanism for revenue sharing between the (b) In the context of a fixed percentage for Tobago of total Islands of Tobago and Trinidad; national expenditure, this proposal cannot be supported.
In any event it is inconsistent with, and conflicts with, the constitutional responsibilities, authority, and functions of the Minister of Finance (c) develop a regime for sharing the revenue obtained from (c) the concept of revenue sharing of marine resources in the marine resources in the waters comprising each island the waters comprising each island and the maritime Page 7 of 27 and the maritime boundaries, superjacent air space and boundaries, suprajacent air space and telecommunications telecommunications; requires in-depth discussion between the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago House of Assembly, to determine its feasibility and applicability.
This is more suited to a fully independent self-governance model (d) ensure that all revenues, fees and duties collected in (d) The proposal that all revenues, fees, and duties collected in Trinidad that are attributable to Tobago such as from Trinidad that are attributable to Tobago, such as from custom duties, import duties and stamp duties and other custom duties, import duties and stamp duties and other duties shall be held for the account of Tobago; duties be held for the account of Tobago is acceptable in principle, but in such a case, such monies would have to be netted off against any monies due to Tobago in Tobago’s annual budgetary allocation.
This requires further discussion since it may be cumbersome to implement.

(e) ensure that all companies operating in Tobago or which (e) This requires further careful examination to determine its operate offices, branches or do business in any other way feasibility, since many such companies will operate both in in Tobago shall pay taxes in Tobago on such operations; Trinidad and in Tobago.
and Page 8 of 27 (f) give due consideration to the financial and developmental (f) The 6.8 percent allocation of expenditure for Tobago proposed needs of Tobago in the context of Trinidad and Tobago by the Honourable Minister of Finance takes into consideration and shall allocate financial resources to Tobago as fairly as the characteristics outlined in (f) (i) to (v), in the form of a 5.8 is practicable, and in determining what is fair and percent base for the appropriation of the national budget to practicable, the following considerations, among others, Tobago, based on population and land area, plus a 1 percent shall apply: uplift, which takes account of the special circumstances of (i) physical separation of Tobago by sea from Tobago as a distinct island physically separated from Trinidad, as Trinidad; well as the challenging topography in some areas of the island.
(ii) isolation from the principal national growth centres; (iii) absence of the multiplier effect of expenditures and investments (private and public) made in Trinidad; (iv) restricted opportunities for employment and career fulfilment; and (v) the impracticability of participation by residents of Tobago in the major educational, cultural and Page 9 of 27 sporting facilities located in Trinidad.
(4) In performing its functions, the Fiscal Review Commission shall Agreed, if the FRC is established as proposed in the amended consider such other factors as it deems appropriate.
form (5) The Fiscal Review Commission shall submit to Parliament prior In the context of a fixed 6.8 percent allocation, this is not to the presentation of the budget in any financial year the applicable sums required to be appropriated and the report of the Fiscal Review Commission shall be taken into consideration by Parliament in making an appropriation above eight percent in any financial year.

141AH.
Contingency Fund 141AH(1) and (2) (1) The House of Assembly may provide for the establishment of Section 115 of the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago provides a Contingencies Fund and for authorising the Secretary for the establishment of a contingency fund whereby: responsible for finance, if he is satisfied that there has arisen “(1) Parliament may provide for the establishment of a an urgent and unforeseen need for expenditure for which no Contingencies Fund and for authorising the Minister responsible other provision exists, to make advances from the Fund to for finance, if he is satisfied that there has arisen an urgent and meet that need.
Page 10 of 27 (2) Where any advance is made in accordance with subsection unforeseen need for expenditure for which no other provision (1), a supplementary estimate shall be presented and a exists, to make advances from the Fund to meet that need.

Supplementary Appropriation Bill shall be introduced as soon (2) Where any advance is made in accordance with subsection as possible for the purpose of replacing the amount so (1), a supplementary estimate shall be presented and a advanced.
Supplementary Appropriation Bill shall be introduced as soon as possible for the purposes of replacing the amount so advanced.” The wording within the Tobago Self-Government Bill is similar to that contained in the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago.

There currently exists a Contingency Fund in Tobago into which all unspent balances at the end of a fiscal year are deposited for use on capital expenditure type projects in the following fiscal year.
However, the decision to withdraw from the Contingency Fund is taken by the Tobago Executive Council and the reasons for withdrawal does not necessarily have to be an emergency event.

For instance, fund are withdrawn to finance payments for the URP in Tobago at times.

Page 11 of 27 It is recommended that if the proposed Tobago Contingency Fund is to mirror the national Contingency Fund, that rules be implemented for the types of events that could trigger a withdrawal from the Contingency Fund.
If a separate Contingency Fund is agreed to, then it is further recommended that the Contingency Fund be financed and replenished through Tobago’s annual allocation.

Moreover, the size of the Tobago Contingency Fund should be set at 6.8 percent of the size of the national Contingency Fund to reflect the national annual allocation to Tobago.
In the event that an emergency arises that occasions a withdrawal from the Tobago Contingency Fund, the quantum of which is greater than the balance standing in the Fund, the Secretary of Finance can write to the Minister of Finance to request that additional funding be withdrawn from the national Contingency Fund to supplement Tobago’s emergency response funding.
The Minister of Finance has to be satisfied that the request represents Page 12 of 27 a response to a legitimate emergency before he/she withdraws monies from the national Contingency Fund.

In addition to replenishing the Tobago Contingency Fund, the Tobago Executive Council should make arrangements to repay the sums withdrawn from the national Contingency Fund out of their budgetary allocation for the following fiscal year.

141AI.
141AI.

Retention of monies Monies appropriated by Parliament to the Tobago Fund for This currently applies in Tobago.

The monies so unexpended are the service of a financial year which remain unexpended at deposited into the Tobago Contingency Fund.

The Ministry of the end of that financial year shall be retained by the House Finance is in agreement with the continuation of this practice.

of Assembly.

However there needs to be clear accountability mechanisms in 141AJ.

Power to Borrow place.


The Tobago Executive Council shall have the power to borrow The Tobago Executive Council currently has the power to borrow locally and internationally such sums as the Tobago Executive locally and internationally, subject to the approval of the Minister Council considers necessary for the discharge of its functions.

of Finance, which should not be unreasonably withheld.
This The Tobago Executive Council may borrow – approval process should remain as is, otherwise, the THA may Page 13 of 27 find itself in an unsustainable debt trap, requiring a bailout from (a) for any purpose relevant to its functions under any Central Government.
The Minister of Finance has direct written law; responsibility for the overall national fiscal balance and national (b) for the purpose of the prudent management of its accounts and therefore has a much broader view of fiscal space financial affairs; than the THA could possibly have.

(c) for the purpose of any investment as approved by the Tobago Executive Council; and (d) for any other purpose approved by the Tobago Legislature.

141AK.
141AK.

Power to Invest The Tobago Executive Council may invest - The Ministry of Finance has no objection to the Tobago Executive (a) for any purpose relevant to its functions under any Council investing its monies to seek a rate of return.
However, if enactment; the form of investment are in financial securities, such as bond (b) for the purpose of the prudent management of its and shares, it is recommended that the Tobago Executive Council financial affairs; follow the Heritage and Stabilisation Fund investment model by (c) money that is not, for the time being, required by the having the Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago act as investment Tobago Executive Council for any other purpose; and manager for the funds they wish to invest, subject to the form of Page 14 of 27 (d) only in a form of investment approved by the Tobago investment approved by the Tobago Legislature and the Minister Legislature.
of Finance.

141AL.

Financial Rules (1) The Tobago Legislature shall approve Financial Rules as are It is proposed that the THA financial rules be subject to the non- necessary for the proper management of its finances.

objection of the Minister of Finance and in keeping with the (2) These Financial Rules shall not be passed by the Tobago Legislature unless it is supported at the final vote.
thereon – national financial rules that govern the Exchequer and Audit Act, the Financial Regulations and the Circulars issued by the Treasury Division of the Ministry of Finance.

(a) in the House of Assembly by the votes of not less than three-fifths of all members of the House of Assembly; and (b) in the People’s House by the votes of not less than three-fifths of all members of the People’s House.
In addition to the foregoing the Ministry of Finance was requested during the JSC meeting on March 11, 2021 to comment on the recommended skill set/competencies that members of the FRC should possess.

Page 15 of 27 It is recommended that the FRC member’s skill set/ competencies should include the following:  Law  Management/Business Administration  Finance/Accounting  Economics It is also recommended that members should have at least ten (10) years standing in their respective field of competence.
The Ministry of Finance was also requested to provide recent statistics on spending in Tobago.

Please see below for data from 2016 to 2020.
Year THA's Request Appropriation Original Allocation Supplemental Revised Allocation Releases Actual Expenditure 2016 5,600,119,611 2,748,800,000 - 2,748,800,000 2,614,521,932 2,538,773,173 2017 5,235,515,324 2,333,590,000 - 2,333,590,000 2,277,012,534 2,277,012,530 2018 4,780,422,683 2,175,683,000 120,000,000 2,295,683,000 2,262,792,833 2,262,792,833 2019 4,617,909,244 2,210,630,000 - 2,210,630,000 2,194,344,309 2,194,344,308 Page 16 of 27 4,742,704,290 2020* *Provisional Source: Budgets Division, Ministry of Finance 2,264,630,000 105,000,000 2,369,630,000 2,344,453,916 2,344,453,916 COMMENTS OF THE HON.
ATTORNEY GENERAL ON THE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL,2021 The Honourable Attorney General has perused the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2021 and the following matters (some of which were raised in the course of the Committee’s work) are submitted for consideration of the Committee.

Appendix II Page 17 of 27 The Honourable Attorney General recommends that the issues be noted and that the Committee provide instructions as to same.
This process can be completed whilst further consultations be undertaken in Tobago.

It is recommended that the Committee solicit a review of a Trinidad and Tobago Constitutional Legal Expert who can assist the Committee in the certification of prescriptions employed to address raised as well as those that may arise in the further Tobago consultation.
1 2 CLAUSE IN THE BILL Clause 6 (b) “(10) For the purposes of sections 53, 75A and Chapter 11A, a reference to “Tobago” means the Island of Tobago, Little Tobago, St. Giles Island, Marble Island, Goat Island, Sisters Island and such area of the archipelagic waters of Trinidad and Tobago, including any islands, the seabed and the subsoil, that lies within eleven nautical miles from the low water-mark of Tobago and the internal and inland waters of Tobago.”.
SECTION IN THE CONSTITUTION Section 3 Clause 7 Section 5(2) of the Constitution is amended in the chapeau, by inserting after the word “Parliament”, the words “or the Tobago Legislature”.

Section 4 and 5 COMMENTS OF THE HON.
ATTORNEY GENERAL Proposed subsection (10) to define the meaning of “Tobago”- Having regard to the various matters currently under consideration involving the waters surrounding T&T such as the Shipping Act, Fisheries Act, Marine Pollution Act, as well as the negotiation of certain matters and the defence of Trinidad and Tobago’s northern maritime boundaries both now in the international forum - it is recommended that the definition of “Tobago” at this time be restricted to the island of Tobago, its internal and inland waters as per the St. Kitts and Nevis model.
The Attorney General supports the move for Tobago to have the capacity to make laws.

Certain issues arise which require careful national consideration.

One instance of concern is in the requirement that there be equality before the law As structured in the redrafted Bill the Tobago Assembly is empowered to enact laws for Tobago exclusively.
Page 18 of 27 Accordingly, there may be instances where citizens in Tobago may be governed by laws that differ from those enacted by the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago.

Section 4(b) of the Constitution guarantees equality before the law and protection of the law, there may be grounds for constitutional challenges.

The proposed amendment to section 5(2), raises the issue of whether the Tobago Legislature should be empowered to enact laws that may infringe sections 4 and 5 of the Constitution.
If it is being considered then section 13 of the Constitution that provides the formula for enacting laws that are inconsistent with sections 4 and 5 would have to amended.

This would allow the constitutionality of laws enacted by the Tobago Legislature to be challenged as not being reasonably justifiable in a society that has a proper respect for the rights and freedoms of the individual.

The proposal for the Parliament and the Tobago Legislature to enact laws may give rise to conflict of laws issues.
There may be an overlap and inconsistencies with laws enacted by both legislatures.

The exemptions for laws related to external affairs and national security may not be adequate as the Parliamentary intervention for the economic Page 19 of 27 3 Clause 8 “(2) Subject to subsection (1), the Tobago Legislature may make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago with respect to the matters set out in the Fourth Schedule.
Section 53 (3) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), the power of Parliament to make laws having effect in Tobago shall not extend to any of the matters set out in the Fourth Schedule.
(4) At any time when it is expressly declared in any Act passed by Parliament that a provision in that Act, being a provision that relate to a Fourth Schedule matter is required to have effect in the island of Tobago- (a) in the interests of external affairs; or (b) in the interests of national security, that provision shall accordingly have effect in the island of Tobago, and where there is any inconsistency between that provision and the provision of any Act passed by the Tobago Legislature, the provisions of the Act passed by Parliament shall prevail.
(5) An Act passed by Parliament shall not be regarded as extending to a matter in the Fourth Schedule by reason only that it contains incidental provisions relating to that matter and having effect in the island of Tobago and if there is any inconsistency between any such provisions and the provisions of any Act passed by the Tobago Legislature, the provisions of the Act passed by Parliament shall prevail.”.

stability of Trinidad and Tobago in certain circumstances is equally critical.
The Emergency Powers under sections 7-12 of the Constitution should be considered, as should the issue of any amendments to saved laws.

The matters listed in the Fourth and Fifth Schedules must be carefully considered in detail.

The portfolio of each Ministry should be examined to determine whether the specific matter should be dealt with legislatively or administratively by House of Assembly or by the central Government.
(See comments on Fourth and Fifth Schedule below) 4 Clause 9 Section 54 Section 54(3)(b) of the Constitution is amended by – (a) inserting after the word “139”, the words “, 141A to 141AN”; (b) deleting the words “and Third Schedules” and substituting the words “, Third, Fourth and Fifth Schedules”.

Would the Tobago Assembly be empowered to make laws that could alter or amend the Constitution?

If so, an entrenchment formula would have to be enacted since there would be a unicameral system in Tobago.
Page 20 of 27 5 Clause 10(a) “(1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution- Section 61 authorised (a) the power of Parliament to make laws shall, except where by otherwise statute, be exercised by Bills the House of passed by Representatives the and Senate and assented to by the President; and (b) the power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws shall, except where otherwise authorised by statute, be exercised by Bills passed by the House of Assembly and assented to by the President.”; 6 Clause 11 Section 75 “(1) There shall be a Cabinet for Trinidad and Tobago which shall have– (a) the general direction and control of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and shall be collectively responsible therefor to Parliament; and (b) no responsibility for the matters set out in the Fifth Schedule in relation to Tobago.”.
7 Clause 12 In addition to these proposed amendments, consequential amendments would be required to the Interpretation Act, Chap.

3:01, the Statutes Act, Chap 3:02 to address the legislative process.

For example- Section 4 of the Interpretation Act provides for judicial notice to be taken of every Act.

Section 75 of the Interpretation Act that provides for legislative matters may require amendment.
The proposed section 75(1) (b) may have to be redrafted to allow greater flexibility for the interaction between the Cabinet and Tobago, there may be emergency and unforeseen circumstances that require the Cabinet’s intervention.

New section 75A The proposed section 75A may have to be redrafted to allow greater flexibility for the interaction between the Cabinet and Tobago, there may be Page 21 of 27 “75A.
(1) There shall be a Tobago Executive Council which shall have- emergency and unforeseen circumstances that require the Cabinet’s intervention.

(a) the general direction and control of the Tobago Island Government and shall be collectively responsible therefor to the Tobago Legislature; and (b) exclusive jurisdiction for the administration within Tobago of the matters set out in the Fifth Schedule, in accordance with any law.”.
8 Clause 19-New section 144 inserted The Constitution is amended by inserting after section 143, the following section: “Mediation Committee 144.

(1) A Mediation Committee is established.

Section 109- Appeals from Court of Appeal to the Judicial Committee The issue of the separation of powers arises and further reflection is required.

Confirmation that the Privy Council is intended to be ousted is requeseted.
(2) The Mediation Committee shall comprise five members as follows: (a) the Prime Minister, who the shall be Chairman or his alternate; (b) the Premier, who the shall be Vice Chairman or his alternate; (c) two persons appointed Page 22 of 27 from the members of the Cabinet; and (d) person one appointed from members the Executive Council.
the of Tobago (3) The Mediation Committee shall have the [powers or functions to mediate or mitigate any disputes that may arise relating to the legislative or executive powers established under this Act].

(4) An appeal of a decision of the Mediation Committee shall lie to the High Court.

(5) A decision of the High Court shall lie to the Court of Appeal which shall be final for all purposes whatsoever.
“FOURTH SCHEDULE (Section 53) 9 New Fourth Schedule New Fifth Schedule The matters listed in the Fourth and Fifth Schedules must be carefully considered in detail.

The portfolio of each Ministry should be examined to determine whether the specific matter should be dealt with Page 23 of 27 THE LIST OF SUBJECTS FOR WHICH THE TOBAGO LEGISLATURE SHALL HAVE EXCLUSIVE LAW MAKING POWERS IN TOBAGO legislatively or administratively by House of Assembly or by the central Government.

1.

Agricultural matters 2.


Amenities for Tourism and Policy, Marketing and Development of Tourism 3.

Casinos, hotels, restaurants, bars and other similar establishments 4.

Community matters 5.

Cultural Activities and Heritage 6.

Education including primary and secondary level, higher education and skills training 7.

Electricity 8.

Environmental management and Climate Change 9.


Financial matters Except: - Coinage and currency, banking and foreign exchange controls - External borrowing - Taxation - Financial Intelligence - National Insurance 10.

Fisheries 11.

Health matters Except [Issues national in nature.

Must be listed out] 12.

Historical sites and Monuments 13.

Housing matters 14.

Industry and Trade matters Further, the legislative power given to Tobago needs to be very clear and precise.
It is suggested that each Ministry/Minister be approached regarding the items listed in the Fourth Schedule to ascertain/map out exactly what Tobago legislative powers can be in that particular area.
For example-  Heritage and Stabilisation Fund  Pensions Act, Chap.23:52  Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel  Equal Opportunity Commission  Scholarships  Concordat  Shipping  Trade matters – Anti-dumping, import export permit  State Lands, LSA, Land Tribunal  Animal Diseases, Quarantine Consider replacing the Fourth Schedule with a suitably modified version of the Fifth Schedule to the Constitution of St. Kitts and Nevis SCHEDULE 5 TO THE CONSTITUTION (Section 119(1))LEGISLATIVE POWERSPART 1–MATTERS WITH RESPECT TO WHICH THE NEVIS ISLAND LEGISLATURE HAS EXCLUSIVE POWER TO MAKE LAWS (1)Agriculture.
(2)Amenities for tourists.

Page 24 of 27 15.

Land including forestry, wildlife, terrestrial and hydrographic surveys and mapping 16.

Management of water resources 17.

Occupational Safety and Health 18.

Parks and public recreation grounds 19.

Physical infrastructure 20.

Port Management 21.

Public transport 22.

Public works 23.

Social services including poverty alleviation 24.

Sport 25.

Telephones 26.

Waste management 27.


Youth Development FIFTH SCHEDULE (Section 75) THE LIST OF RESPONSIBILITY AREAS FOR WHICH THE TOBAGO ISLAND GOVERNMENT SHALL HAVE EXCLUSIVE ADMINISTRATIVE POWERS IN TOBAGO 1.

Agriculture, Lands and Fisheries 2.

Community Development 3.

Culture 4.

Education Except National Accreditation System 5.

Finance Except - (3)Animals.

(4)Archaeological or historical sites and monuments.
(5)Borrowing of moneys, or obtaining grants of moneys, for the purposes of the Nevis Island Administration and the making of grants and loans for those purposes.

(6)Cemeteries.

(7)Cinemas.

(8)Conservation and supply of water.

(9)Dangerous or inflammable substances.

(10)Economic planning and development other than national planning and development.

(11)Employment of persons who are not citizens.

(12)Hotels, restaurants, bars, casinos and other similar establishments.

(13)Housing.
(13)Housing.

(14)Industries, trades and businesses.

(15)Land and buildings other than land and buildings vested in the Crown and specific to the use of the Government, including holding of land by persons who are not citizens.

(16)Manufacture and supply of electricity.

(17)Parks and other places for public recreation.

(18)Prevention and control of fires.

(19)Roads and highways.

(20)Sport and cultural activities.


(21)The matters with respect to which the Nevis Island Legislature is empowered to make laws by sections 47,70,71,72 and 73, as applied with modifications by section 104, and by sections 102(1) and 113 (22) Any matter added by Parliament under section 37(6).

Page 25 of 27 Banking (Central and Commercial) Borrowing (External) Foreign Exchange and Exchange Control Customs and Excise Taxation Financial Intelligence National Insurance Industrial Development 6.

Health 7.
Health 7.

Housing 8.

9.

Labour 10.

Office of the Assembly Legislature 11.

Office of the Premier Except – Commissions of Enquiry Constitutional Matters Protocols of the State Public Holidays Children’s Authority of Trinidad and Tobago 12.
Office of the Secretary of Legal Affairs Except - Anti-Money Laundering, Counter Financing of Terrorism and Proliferation Financing (AML/CFT/PF) Appointments to Quasi-Judicial Bodies Constitutional Reform The Criminal Justice System Intellectual Property Law Reform Law Revision National Anti-Money Laundering and Counter Financing of Terrorism (23)Any matter that is incidental or supplementary to any matter referred to in this list.
The Fifth Schedule need only be modified to exclude certain responsibilities of a national nature standing responsibilities of Ministers of as gazetted Government.

Page 26 of 27 Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions Office of the Solicitor General Registrar General Law Revision Commission Sentencing Commission 13.

Planning and Development Except - National Framework for Sustainable Development National Monitoring and Evaluation National Statistics National Trust Vision 2030 14.
Public Utilities Except – Meteorological Services 15.

Social Services 16.

Sport 17.

Tourism 18.

Works and Infrastructure 19.

Youth Development.”.
March 31, 2021 Page 27 of 27 MINUTES OF THE 13TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON THURSDAY APRIL 08, 2021 AT 3:09 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Secretariat Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Parliamentary Legal Officer Mrs. Angelique Massiah Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Mr. Justin Jarrette Researcher Secretary Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Ms. Monique Moses Law Reform Commission Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel I Parliamentary Counsel I Legal Officer I Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer ABSENT / EXCUSED Page 1 of 4 Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Mr. Clarence Rambharat Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Member Member Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom COMMENCEMENT The Chairman called the meeting to order at 3:09 p.m. and welcomed all those 1.1 present.
CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES 2.1 The Committee considered the Minutes of the Twelfth Meeting held on April 1, 2021.

Following a brief discussion, the Committee agreed to amend paragraph 4.7 to read 2.2 as follows – The Chairman confirmed that she was in receipt of a letter from Mr. Rambally, “4.7 Mr. Indarsingh and Ms. John and advised Members that the letter was uploaded to Rotunda and is accessible to all Members.
The letter submitted to the Committee was one seeking an immediate return to consultations with Tobago stakeholders.

However, the Chairman reminded the Members that based on the records of the Committee, consultations with stakeholders in Tobago as well as in Trinidad are imminent.
She referred to the Minutes of the last Meeting (11th Para 4.4) which confirmed the decision of the Committee to finalise the schedule for consultations in Tobago and with other relevant stakeholders at the instant meeting.” The Minutes, as amended, were confirmed on a motion moved by Mr. De Freitas and 2.3 seconded by Dr. Dillon-Remy.
MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 3.1 The Chairman advised that the Office of the CPC submitted the Constitution 3.1 (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill (revised) and the companion Tobago Island Government Bill for the Committee’s consideration.

Paragraph 3.2 Page 2 of 4 3.2 The Chairman indicated that the Minister of Finance submitted further comments by way of a letter recommending areas under Finance that should also be excepted from the Fourth and Fifth Schedules to the Bill.
The letter was shared with the drafters from the Office of the CPC.

Paragraph 4.2 3.3 The Chairman indicated that the CPC drafters captured the points arising out of the Minister of Finance’s submissions and incorporated them into the Draft Tobago Island Government Bill.

Paragraph 4.5 The Chairman indicated that the AG’s submissions as agreed to were incorporated 3.4 into the revised Constitution Amendment (Tobago Self Government) Bill.
CONSIDERATION OF THE DRAFT COMPANION BILLS 4.1 The Committee agreed that Members would review both the proposed revised Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill and the proposed Tobago Island Government Bill and submit their observations, if any, early in the week ahead, in writing, to the Chairman and the Secretariat for the Committee’s consideration.

CONSULTATIONS Date and Format The Committee discussed the organisation of the upcoming consultation exercises.
5.1 The following decisions were taken: (i) The consultations with stakeholders in Tobago will be held from Friday April 30 to May 3, 2021; (ii) Publication of the draft companion Bills must be done in sufficient time (no less than ten (10) days) so that stakeholders can read and consider the Bills; (iii) The consultations will be held over a 4-day period in order to facilitate the opportunity for participation by Tobago’s large Seventh-Day Adventist and other faith-based communities whose members would not participate in consultations on particular days; (iv) The consultations will take a hybrid format, which will allow both virtual and in-person participation; and (v) Consultations will be held in both Tobago East and Tobago West.
Page 3 of 4 Communication Strategy The Committee instructed the Secretariat to embark on the communication strategy, 5.2 which will include the following: (i) Publication of the work of the Committee to date, via short documentary to be aired on the Parliament Channel; (ii) Preparation and publication of an explanatory paper to accompany the draft companion Bills; (iii) Publication of a call for comments via television and radio ads or any other suitable public engagement medium; (iv) Arrangements for priority communication of the draft companion Bills with the Tobago Forum of Political Parties and the PDP and for their early consultation; and (v) Communication of the draft companion Bills with other stakeholders whose comments were considered by the Committee.
NEXT MEETING 6.1 The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Thursday April 15, 2021 at 3:00 p.m. At this meeting, the Committee will finalise the draft companion Bills to be published and confirm the call for comments and consultation.

ADJOURNMENT 7.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

7.2 The adjournment was taken at 3:58 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.
09 April, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 4 of 4 MINUTES OF THE 14TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON THURSDAY APRIL 15, 2021 AT 3:08 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Mr. Clarence Rambharat Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Mrs. Angelique Massiah Parliamentary Legal Officer Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Mr. Justin Jarrette Researcher Ms. Ria Rampersad Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Ms. Monique Moses Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel I Parliamentary Counsel I Legal Officer I Page 1 of 9 Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Member ABSENT / EXCUSED The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom COMMENCEMENT The Chairman called the meeting to order at 3:08 p.m. and welcomed all those 1.1 present.
CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Thirteenth Meeting held on April 8, 2.1 2021.

The Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Mr. Cummings and seconded by 2.2 Mr. Rambharat.

MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 2.1 The Chairman advised that the amended Minutes of the Twelfth Meeting were 3.1 circulated via the Committee’s e-repository.
Paragraph 3.1 The Chairman indicated that the Secretariat and the CPC have substantially 3.2 completed fine-tuning the Committee’s proposed Bills, the draft revised Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill and the draft Tobago Island Government Bill (the companion draft Bills), which include the consequential amendments to be made to other laws.
Paragraph 4.1 The Chairman advised that she (the Chair), Dr. Dillon-Remy and Mr. De Freitas shared 3.3 comments on the companion draft Bills with the Secretariat, and that Dr. Dillon-Remy’s which were in writing can be found on Rotunda.

The chairman thanked Dr. Dillon-Remy and Mr. De Freitas for their comments.

Page 2 of 9 FINALISATION OF THE DRAFT COMPANION BILLS 4.1 The Committee reviewed the companion draft Bills, clause by clause.

The chairman asked Members to raise their concerns with each clause.
Concerns raised were noted.

The Committee’s deliberations are outlined in Appendix I.

CONFIRMATION OF THE CALL FOR COMMENTS AND CONSULTATIONS The Chairman reminded Members that, as agreed, the next stage of the Committee’s 5.1 work was public consultations on the companion draft Bills, beginning in Tobago.
The Chairman provided the following further details on the Communication Strategy 5.2 developed to publicise the public consultations to be held on the Bills - i A short documentary on the work of the Committee to be broadcast on Parliament Channel and on Parliament’s social media sites; ii Hard copies of the Bills to be widely circulated at prominent locations in Trinidad and Tobago; iii Advertisements to be widely circulated in the print and electronic media in Trinidad iv v vi and Tobago; Public call for comments and solicitation of feedback via on online survey; Letters of thanks to stakeholders who submitted comments on the Bill, expressing gratitude and inviting them to make further contributions; and Public outreach by Committee members at radio and television talk shows to generate interest in the public consultations.
The Chairman requested Members who are interested in attending radio and television talk programmes to indicate such to the Secretariat by April 16, 2021.

5.3 The documentary was shown to members and the Chairman invited members’ comments.

Mr. Rambally agreed to send in comments by the end of day.

It was agreed that, for wider publicity, attempts should be made to have the documentary aired on other local television stations.
5.4 The Chairman advised that, given the state of the COVID-19 pandemic, the public consultations may very likely be held virtually but that this decision was subject to review.

It was further advised that the public consultations would also be carried live on the Parliament Channel.

NEXT MEETING 6.1 The Committee agreed – a. that it will next meet for public consultations beginning on Friday April 30th; and b. that its next formal meeting will be held on a date to be fixed following the consultations.
Page 3 of 9 ADJOURNMENT 7.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

7.2 The adjournment was taken at 4:58 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.

28 April, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 4 of 9 Draft (revised) Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Governance) Bill Clause Concerns Raised Changes Made Remarks APPENDIX 1 1-5 6 (Definition Tobago) (10)- of None raised A cogent reason must be given for the deletion of the reference the archipelagic waters from the definition of Tobago.
to No change - No change Deleted and replaced with 8 (3) (c).

7 8 (6) (Section amended) 53 state None raised Whether there is need to that expressly Parliament cannot change the Fourth Schedule unless there is consultation with the Island Government.

(TIG) Tobago advice - of The Constitutional experts which was relied on was that it is not advisable and impractical to divide the waters of a unitary state.

The in practice International Law does not support this.
Archipelagic States do not divide the waters between their regions or islands.

- - CPC to submit a draft provision clarifying that where an there inconsistency between a Tobago Act and an Act of the national Parliament, the Act of the national Parliament prevails.

is Schedule - It is proposed that the be Fourth the entrenched Constitution, therefore if there will be any change in Page 5 of 9 9-11 12 (Section amended) None raised Whether S.75 (1)(b) should refer Fourth to Schedule.
the 75 No change No change 13 (Section amended) 80 S.80 Whether (1)(b) should refer to the Fourth Schedule.

No change 14-17 18 (Composition of the House of Assembly) None raised Whether the President should appoint four-five persons instead of two, under S. 141B.

No change No change it will consultation with TIG.

involve the the Fifth - Schedule The delineates the areas for which the TIG shall have administrative exclusive the powers.

Therefore, accurately section references Fifth Schedule.
For the reasons outlined above, section the accurately references the Fifth Schedule.

- The figures proposed were deeply reflected on by the draftsmen.

It seeks to ensure that the Tobago to Government secure a majority in the Chamber to govern.

Any proposal that could in a Government result a minority being in position a mixed in Chamber is unworkable.
in order is able Page 6 of 9 144 19 (2) (d) (Section inserted) Mediation Committee What is the rationale for having one person from the Tobago Executive Council and two persons from the Cabinet?

No change Fourth Schedule Part II deleted It appeared to provide for the Tobago Legislature to amend taxation laws and other laws that must be national in scope.

The Cabinet represents the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago, hence the inclusion of two members of the Cabinet.
Part II provided a list of matters that could have and incidental been supplementary the matters listed in Part I.

However, included it matters which would have created conflict of laws.

to Draft Tobago Island Government Bill Clause 1-2 3 (1) (Interpretation) Concerns Raised None raised Definitions were needed facilitate interpretation Changes Made No change Two new definitions were inserted: to  Tobago Fund;  Tobago Island Government.
4-6 7 (Tobago Legislature Constituted) 8 (Standing Orders) 9-16 law making body, None raised As a the Legislature should be constituted to include the President.
the The need to procedures of the House of Assembly and for elections of key offices within the Assembly None raised regulate No change Reworded to allow the Legislature to be constituted by the President and the House of Assembly Provision inserted for requisite Standing Orders No change Page 7 of 9 17 (Exemption jury service) 18 None raised from None raised 19 20 21-30 31 32-33 34 35 None raised the Assembly Law in It was suggested that the office of be of Clerk established and be protected.
The draftsmen were look at s. 47 of the asked to Jamaican Constitution this regard.

None raised None raised in None raised None raised None raised To provide that Members of the Assembly be exempt from jury service To provide that the House of Assembly be recognised as a public body for the purpose of the Prevention of Corruption Act, Chap.

11:11.

To provide that the Members of the House of Assembly are persons in public life for the purpose of the Integrity in Public Life Act, Chap.
22:01 Clause inserted to establish the Clerk of the Assembly that the Tobago No change Island To provide Government and the Tobago Legislature are subject to the Central Tenders Board Act, Chap.

71:91 and Public Procurement and Disposal of Public Property Act, Act No.

1 of 2015 No change To provide for consequential amendments to be made to the Interpretation Act, Chap.

3:01 To provide for consequential amendments to be made to the Statutes Act, Chap.
3:02 Page 8 of 9 Schedule None raised Supplements clause 29 (3) by identifying the responsibilities and liabilities of the Central Bank.
Page 9 of 9 MINUTES OF THE 16TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON FRIDAY MAY 07, 2021 AT 1:39 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Assistant Secretary Mrs. Angelique Massiah Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Ms. Rebecca Rafeek Procedural Officer Intern Parliamentary Legal Officer Researcher Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC) Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Ms. Janelle Smith Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel I Parliamentary Counsel I Legal Officer I ABSENT / EXCUSED Page 1 of 8 Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom COMMENCEMENT The Chairman called the meeting to order at 1:39 p.m. and welcomed all those 1.1 present.
CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Fourteenth Meeting held on April 15, 2.1 2021.

The Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Ms. Cudjoe and seconded by Mr. 2.2 De Freitas.

MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 5.2 The Chairman indicated that hundreds of copies of the Bill were circulated in both 3.1 Tobago and Trinidad.
3.2 The Chairman referred to the results on the Committee’s online survey which had been circulated and advised that one hundred and ninety (192) participants responded to the survey of whom one hundred and twenty-seven (127) were from Tobago.

The Chairman advised that the deadline for submission of written comments to the 3.3 Committee was further extended to May 12, 2021.

3.4 On behalf of the Committee, the Chairman thanked the CPC team for their support.
She also thanked the staff of the Committee and the Parliament for the work undertaken to ensure that the JSC’s draft Bills were widely circulated as well as comprehensively explained via video and other broadcast presentations.

She acknowledged Mr. Rambally for his useful suggestions which were included in the video production.

Other Matters Arising 3.5 Mr. Indarsingh enquired whether the level of public participation in the Committee’s online survey was satisfactory.
Mr. Rambally suggested that the Committee should engage in further public consultation given the short time frame of the Committee’s call for public comments from mid-April 2021.
Page 2 of 8 3.6 There was a brief discussion during which the following points were established – (a) the number of respondents to the survey was quite satisfactory compared to the average level of responses to such public surveys; (b) notwithstanding the logistical constraints as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, the stakeholder consultations and related activities were inclusive and participatory; (c) the JSC’s output generated wide and robust discussions in Tobago and interested persons took the opportunity to participate, in a number of virtual public meetings; (b) the comments received, both written or oral, raise repeatedly the same issues to such a degree that the key areas of concern are evident.
3.7 Mr. Al-Rawi informed the Committee that it was brought to his attention that the advice of Ambassador Gerard Thompson made available to the Committee was being misrepresented in Tobago.

The Chairman advised that if the document was indeed being utilised to misinform the public, it was incumbent upon the Committee to properly explain the document.
In response to concerns raised, Mr. Al Rawi reassured members that he was not alleging that there was any violation of the rule against premature publication of proceedings.

CONSIDERATION OF THE STAKEHOLDER MATRIX OF COMMENTS BY CLAUSE The Committee commenced its consideration of the written and oral comments 4.1 received with reference to the Matrix of comments on the Draft Companion Bills received from stakeholders as at May 4, 2021.

There were extensive discussions.


The particulars of the deliberations and decisions 4.2 made are reflected in the Appendix.

During the discussions, the Chairman informed the Committee that due to pressing 4.2 official matters, she had to leave the meeting early and requested Mr. de Freitas to hold for her.

The Committee agreed.

4.3 The Chairman left the meeting.

4.4 Mr. De Freitas took the Chair.


NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Friday May 5.1 14, 2021 at 1:30 p.m.

Page 3 of 8 ADJOURNMENT 6.1 The Chair thanked Members for attending.

6.2 The adjournment was taken at 5:29 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.


Chairman Secretary 10 May, 2021 Page 4 of 8 The Draft Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Clause Comments Decision 4 — The Bill violates the right of self- — No change to be made.

determination This provision originated in Tobago.


— Tobago should have its own Bill of Rights which should be included in the Constitution — The Committee disagreed with this suggestion for the following reasons - i. this was not part of the Committee’s remit; ii.

the Constitution already provides for the rights of citizens of Trinidad and Tobago; and iii.

this suggestion is not feasible in a unitary sovereign State.

5 6 8 — The provisions of the Bill do not support — No change to be made.
the concept of equality of status This provision originated in Tobago — Tobago should be defined the Constitution by way of a delineation of waters in — On the basis of the advice before it, the Committee was satisfied that Tobago cannot be defined in the Constitution by reference to archipelagic waters.

— There was that agreement the administrative functions pertaining to Tobago’s control over maritime activities should be set out in the proposed Fifth if Schedule of workable, in the companion Bill.
the Constitution and — The Committee also agreed to better explain this issue and the reasons why such a definition of Tobago cannot be included in the Constitution.

— Clause 8(4) should not be applicable to matters for which the Tobago Island Government exclusive responsibility; has — No change to be made.

To avoid conflict of laws, an Act of Parliament will prevail to the extent of any inconsistency.
Page 5 of 8 11 12 — Should Tobago make a law which contravenes laws and international conventions, how will this be addressed?

unforeseen circumstance’ should be defined to clarify when Cabinet can intervene and to avoid ambiguity; emergency — ‘An or — Who determines that the intervention of Cabinet is required?

— The phrase ‘Without prejudice to section 75(1)’ should be added to Clause 12 (1) (b), given that it appears in the current Act.
14 — The title “Chief Secretary” is preferred over the title “Premier” 15,16 and 17 — The Premier should not be consulted in the appointment of persons to the top civil service positions in Tobago [clause 16 (a)] — A Tobago Office in respect of each Service Commission should be established instead of creating Divisions of the Service Commissions.

— How is the power of the Premier to transfer the Chief Administrator to be exercised, given the uniqueness of this office in Tobago.
— The term “Assemblyman” should be replaced with the gender neutral term “Assembly member” 18 141B — The Attorney General to advise on this issue.

— The Attorney General to advise on this issue.

— The Attorney General and the CPC to advise on this issue.

— There was general agreement with the title ‘Premier’ for the leader of the Tobago Island Government.

The Committee was of the view that there may be the need to explain the reasons why this title is preferred.

— No change to be made.


This provision is consistent with local, regional and international practice.

— The Committee will review clauses 15, 16 further it Service from and 17 when information Commissions Department.

receives the — The Attorney General to advise on this issue.

— The Committee accepted this proposal.

to “Assemblyman” “Assembly Member” wherever it appears.

changed to be Page 6 of 8 — Whether the Assembly is too large — No change to be made.
The Committee agreed to retain its proposal for an Assembly of 26 members.

— Whether 141F should be replaced by the — The Committee accepted this proposal.
as for shall there appoint is occasion following: Where the appointment of a Chief Secretary, the Chief President Secretary— (a) The Assembly Member who is the Leader of the party which commands the support of the majority of members of that House; or (b) where it appears to him that that party does not have an undisputed leader or that no party commands the support of such a majority, the Assembly Member who, in his judgment, is most likely to command the support of the majority of Assembly Members, and who is willing to accept the office of Chief Secretary.
The Deputy Chief Secretary shall be appointed by the President on the advice of the Chief Secretary.

— The death of the Premier should trigger — No change to be made.

an election for a premier — The following provision should be inserted: Where having been a candidate of a party and elected to the House of Assembly, he resigns from or is expelled by that party.
— The Committee noted that this proposal mirrored a provision in the Constitution related to the House of Representatives, and agreed that a similar provision should be drafted for the Tobago Legislature.

— This the clause should be replaced by — No change to be made the following: (1)The President, acting in accordance Page 7 of 8 18 141F 18 141G 18 141M (1) 18 141P (1) with the advice of the Chief Secretary, may at any time dissolve the House of Assembly.
(2) The Assembly, unless sooner dissolved, shall continue for four years from the first sitting after any date of stand dissolution, and dissolved.

shall then its 18 141P (2) — This clause should be replaced by the — The Attorney General to advise on this issue.
following: A general election of members of the House of Assembly shall be held at such time within three months after every dissolution of the House of Assembly as the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary, shall appoint.
Page 8 of 8 MINUTES OF THE 17TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON FRIDAY MAY 14, 2021 AT 1:37 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member (and Chairman for the Day) Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Mr. Varma Deyalsingh Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Assistant Secretary Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Mrs. Angelique Massiah Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Ms. Rebecca Rafeek Procedural Officer Intern Parliamentary Legal Officer Researcher Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC) Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Janelle Smith Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag) Policy Research Officer Legal Officer I ABSENT / EXCUSED Page 1 of 10 Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN FOR THE DAY 1.1 1.2 The Secretary informed members that, in the absence of the Chairman who was due to arrive late, the Committee was required to elect a Chairman for the day in accordance with Standing Orders 112 (4) of the House of Representatives and 102 (4) of the Senate.
The Secretary invited nominations for the position of Chairman for the day.

Mr. De Freitas was nominated on a motion moved by Mr. Al Rawi and seconded by Dr. Dillon-Remy.

1.3 There being no other nominations, the Secretary declared Mr. De Freitas the duly elected Chairman for the day.

1.4 Mr. De Freitas assumed the Chair, called the meeting to order at 1:37 p.m. and welcomed all present.
ANNOUNCEMENTS The Chairman indicated that Mr. Rambally requested to be excused from the 2.1 meeting whilst Mrs. Robinson Regis indicated her late arrival.

2.2 Mr. Indarsingh was excused from the meeting given that he was experiencing network connectivity challenges and his attempts to join the meeting were unsuccessful.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Sixteenth Meeting held on May 7, 3.1 2021.
The Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Dr. Dillon-Remy and seconded 3.2 by Mrs. Sagramsingh-Sooklal MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 3.3 Page 2 of 10 4.1 The Chairman indicated that written submissions on the Draft Companion Bills were received as at May 12, 2021 from the Central bank of Trinidad and Tobago, the Inland Revenue Division, the Service Commissions Department and the National Joint Action Committee (NJAC).
4.2 The Chairman indicated that the Law Association of Trinidad and Tobago (LATT) requested an extension to May 18, 2021 to submit comments.

It was also noted that several key stakeholders had not yet submitted written comments on the proposed draft companion Bills.

The Committee therefore agreed to extend the deadline for key stakeholders desirous of submitting written comments on the proposed draft companion Bills to Tuesday May 18, 2021.
CONSIDERATION OF THE STAKEHOLDER MATRIX OF COMMENTS BY CLAUSE 5.1 The Committee continued its consideration of the written and oral comments received with reference to the Matrix of comments on the Draft Companion Bills received from stakeholders as at May 12, 2021.

5.2 The Chairman joined the meeting.

There were extensive discussions.

The particulars of the deliberations and decisions 5.3 made are reflected in the Appendix.
NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Thursday 6.1 May 20, 2021 at 3:00 p.m. 6.2 At its next meeting, a review of the Committee’s Draft Report would be undertaken.

ADJOURNMENT 7.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

7.2 The adjournment was taken at 6:30 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.


18 May, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 3 of 10 APPENDIX The Draft Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Clause Comments Decision 8 — Clause 8(4) should not be applicable to matters for which the Tobago Island Government has exclusive responsibility; — No change to be made.

The Attorney General advised that it is proper for Acts of Parliament to prevail.
— Should Tobago make a law which contravenes international laws and conventions, how will this be addressed?

— ‘An or emergency unforeseen circumstance’ should be defined to clarify when Cabinet can intervene and to avoid ambiguity; — The Attorney General that Trinidad further advised and Tobago is a dualist State and as such adoption of international law can only be made by the Parliament.

national Tobago Additionally, Legislature will not have law making power in matters of foreign affairs.
the — No change to be made The Attorney General advised that the provision as drafted is in order.

— Who determines that the intervention of Cabinet is required?

— The phrase ‘Without prejudice to section 75(1)’ should be added to Clause 12 (1) (b), given that it appears in the current Act — The Attorney General advised that it is not normal to put the words in legislation.
‘without prejudice’ 11 12 15-17 — How is the power of the Premier to transfer the Chief Administrator to be exercised, given the uniqueness of this office in Tobago?

18 141P (2) — This clause should be replaced by the following: — CPC to advise — CPC was instructed to consult the Ministry of Public with Administration and advise the Committee.

— CPC to calculate the feasibility of this provision with a hypothetical Page 4 of 10 election date of February 28.
A general election of members of the House of Assembly shall be held at such time within three months after the House of every dissolution of Assembly as the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary, shall appoint.

18 141L — Should that an the requirement appointee or electoral candidate be a person who "resides in Tobago” be refined to stipulate a specific length of time?
— The Committee agreed that the definition of ‘reside’ as outlined in the Representation of the People Act, Chap.

3:01 is sufficient; 18 141Q(6) — The Division shall be under the supervision of an Administrator whose office shall be a public office of a level no lower than that of a Deputy Permanent Secretary.

19 144 — The title “Mediation Committee” is a misnomer.

Mediators must be independent persons and a mediation process where the antagonists are members of the committee are counterproductive.
Fifth Schedule — Air and seaports fall under the authority of the Tobago House of Assembly in the present Tobago House of Assembly, Chap.

25:03, but were omitted in this Bill.

— No change to be made.

— The Committee accepted this proposal.

An Administrator shall be a public office of equal status to that of a Deputy Permanent Secretary.

— CPC to advise where in the proposed law or consequential amendment should be this placed.
— The Committee agreed to revert to the original title of: “Dispute Resolution Committee”.

— CPC to consult Sections 41 (3) and (4) of the Constitution of South Africa to cross reference whether any rules or principles for mediation are prescribed.

— The Committee agreed that all subjects that were previously under the Fifth Schedule of the Tobago House of Assembly, Chap.
25:03, would be included in the Fifth Schedule of the Constitution Page 5 of 10 (Tobago Bill, Self- (Amendment) Government) 2020, alongside the additional areas of responsibility — No change to be made.

Taxation will remain under the purview of Central Government.

however, — The Committee accepted this proposal, the Environmental Management Authority will remain under the the Central Government.

remit of — The Committee to seek advice from the Ministry of Finance.
Fifth Schedule Fifth Schedule — The Tobago island Government should have the ability to collect taxes paid in Tobago or a portion of said tax, and set taxation in Tobago to some level.

— The Environment should be included in the Fifth Schedule.

Fifth Schedule — Clarity that shall have (5) states is required as the Fifth Schedule Section 75 (5) states that the TIG exclusive administrative powers in Tobago for Finance except Borrowing (external).
However, the Fourth Schedule Section the Tobago 53 shall have exclusive Legislature lawmaking powers in Tobago for borrowing of moneys, or obtaining grants of moneys, for the purposes of the TIG and the making of grants and loans for those purposes.

Does this mean that the TIG will not be allowed to borrow external finances or does not have the administrative powers in Tobago to borrow externally?
Clause 6(1) The Draft Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021 Comments Decision — A Memorandum of Understanding is a gentleman’s agreement but is not — No change to be made.

The Attorney General advised Page 6 of 10 necessarily legally binding.

Does this provision accord with the statement in the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self Government) Bill that Tobago has the right to determine its political status and the freely pursue its economic, social and cultural development?
of a Memorandum that Understanding is more than a gentleman’s agreement and there are are enforceable.

aspects which 6(2) — The terms “the Government” and the — No change made “the State” need to be defined.

— The Committee agreed that Assembly Members and Senators should as the Retiring in ‘Legislators’ Allowances (Legislative Service) Act, Chap.

2:03. included be — CPC to advise on the drafting of consequential a as this amendment — The Committee agreed to this recommendation.

CPC amendment.
CPC amendment.

to draft the necessary 12(3) — Assemblymen should be included as legislators in the Retiring allowances legislative services Act.)

12(6) — The Chief Secretary and Assistant Secretaries should also be barred from engaging in any trade, business, occupation or other undertaking for profit or remuneration other than in the Tobago House of serving Assembly.

— The bill in its current form neglected for the appointment of to allow Assistant Secretaries.
13(2) — The clause should be replaced by the following: ‘The President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary, shall fix the date of a bye-election for the election of an Assembly Member, — The Committee agreed to the deletion of the words ‘the Prime Minister and’ but will retain the term Premier in place of Chief Secretary.
— No change, the timeframe Page 7 of 10 20 22 which date shall not be later than the expiration of three months after that declaration.’ — The duties of the Clerk of the House of Assembly have increased according to Section 20.

Therefore the level of compensation should be equal to that of the Clerk of the House.
In that regard Section 20 (2) and Section 20 (9) should be amended as follows: Section 20 (2) “The offices of the Clerk of the House of Assembly and Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly are established as public offices which shall be no lower than the Clerk of the House and Deputy Clerk of the House in Trinidad.” Section 20 (9) “The Clerk of the House of Assembly should be an Accounting Officer no lower than that of the Clerk of the House in Trinidad.” — The funding to be appropriated to the Tobago Island Government should be released quarterly en bloc.
proposed is the standard.

— The Committee was not of the view the Assembly should be at the level of the Clerk of the House.

the Clerk of that — The Committee agreed that the office of Clerk of the Assembly shall be equivalent to a Deputy Permanent Secretary.

— CPC to advise where in the proposed law this can be placed or whether it would be better placed consequential a in amendment.

— The Committee agreed to the recommendation.

CPC amendments.
CPC amendments.

to make the necessary 22 — Insert “Review” between “Fiscal — The Committee agreed.

Commission”.

23(4)(d) — The ability to initiate special audits should be the removed responsibilities of the Fiscal Review Commission.

from — No change to be made.

The conduct of special audits by the Fiscal Review Commission was intra vires.

23(4)(d) — Put a full stop after “practicable” on line 5.

Delete the remainder of the said said clause.


considerations as stated the subsection are policy considerations which may change from time to time The sub in — No change to be made.

The inclusion of the matters to be considered by the Commission in allocating financial resources to Tobago provided certainty.

Page 8 of 10 24 28 and therefore should not be inserted into the Legislation.
— Would Tobago taxes be paid into the together with Consolidated Fund taxes collected on behalf of the Island of Trinidad or would the Tobago taxes fall under Clause 24(a) as being appropriated by Parliament for the use of the Tobago Island Government to be paid into the Tobago Fund?

— The Committee agreed to seek the advice of the Minister of Finance on the submission of the Board of Inland Revenue.
— Would the functions and/or operations of the Board of Inland Revenue have to change, to not only administer the taxes for the Island of Tobago separately from the taxes of the Island of Trinidad, but also to share information with the Fiscal Review Commission?

— Would the functions of the Board of Inland Revenue have to be changed to give effect to the separation of taxes collected on behalf of Trinidad and taxes collected on behalf of Tobago?
— The Attorney General to advise on the legal personality of the Tobago Executive Council.

— What is for the rationale the Government to indemnify the Central Bank against all loses arising from its duties and obligations as manager of investments from the Tobago Fund when the said Government is not a party to any arrangement which is made between the Central Bank and the Tobago Executive Council which is not a legal person?
to borrow up 28(2) — The Tobago Executive Council should to a be allowed prescribed percentage of its allocation for the particular fiscal year, without the approval of any Minister of Government.

Borrowing beyond this — No change to be made.

The Committee was of the view that the phrase ‘subject to the approval of the Minister with responsibility for finance, which should not be unreasonably Page 9 of 10 limit must be approved by Minister of Finance.

the withheld’ should remain.


— A Treasury department should be established in Tobago, to eliminate the need for paperwork such as the assessment of pensions and gratuities being processed in Trinidad, which creates inordinate delays.

— It was suggested that the Bills include a right to referenda; a right to recall an Assembly member; and a right to address the House.
— The Committee did not agree to establish another department in Tobago, but agreed to seek the advice of the Minister of Finance on this issue.

— These items were not within the remit of the Committee.

Page 10 of 10 MINUTES OF THE 18TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON THURSDAY MAY 20, 2021 AT 3:05 P.M.
PRESENT Committee Members Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Assistant Secretary Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Ms. Rebecca Rafeek Procedural Officer Intern Researcher Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC) Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Janelle Smith Ms. Julie Gonzales Legal Intern Mrs. Nisha Sookram-Loutan Legal Intern Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag) Policy Research Officer Legal Officer I Page 1 of 22 Law Reform Commission (LRC) Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer ABSENT / EXCUSED Mr. Clarence Rambharat Mr. Varma Deyalsingh Member Member The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom COMMENCEMENT 1.1 The Chairman called the meeting to order at 3:05 p.m. and welcomed all those present.
CONFIRMATION OF THE MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Seventeenth Meeting held on May 14, 2.1 2021.
2.2 The Committee agreed to amend to the following amendments to the minutes: Insert a new paragraph 2.2 to read as follows: “2.2 Mr. Indarsingh was excused from the meeting given that he was experiencing network connectivity challenges and his attempts to join the meeting were unsuccessful.” The Minutes, as amended, were confirmed on a motion moved by Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe 2.3 and seconded by Mr. De Freitas.
MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 4.2 3.1 The Chairman indicated that the deadline for the submission of stakeholder comments was closed on May 18, 2021.

During the extended period granted for submissions, comments from the following stakeholders were received:  The Law Association of Trinidad and Tobago;  The Tobago Law Association;   The Tobago Civil Society Network; and Justice Anthony Lucky; Page 2 of 22  The Progressive Democratic Patriots.
CONSIDERATION OF THE STAKEHOLDER MATRIX OF COMMENTS BY CLAUSE 4.1 The Committee continued its consideration of the written and oral comments received with reference to the Matrix of comments on the Draft Companion Bills received from stakeholders as at May 20, 2021.

There were extensive discussions.

The particulars of the deliberations and decisions 4.2 made are reflected in Appendix I.

The CPC presented its responses to the comments and issues raised at the 4.3 Seventeenth Meeting.
The responses of the CPC are contained in Appendix II.

NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Tuesday 5.1 May 25, 2021 at 1:30 p.m. 5.2 At its next meeting, a review of the Committee’s Draft Report would be undertaken.

ADJOURNMENT 6.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

6.2 The adjournment was taken at 7:25 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.


24 May, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 3 of 22 The Draft Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Clause Concern Decision 5 — What does “equality of status” entail and does it — CPC to review this clause with regard to reflect Tobago’s desire for autonomy?

the advice from experts.


APPENDIX I — The decision to separate the two islands within the context of a “unitary State” will create an inequality because different powers will be granted to one Island as opposed to the other in relation to the Central Government which will have jurisdiction over both islands under the umbrella of the “unitary State”.

This requires further consideration to ensure that “equality”, as intended, can be guaranteed.
The only way that the intention of promoting “equality of status between the Island of Tobago and the Island of Trinidad” may be accomplished is to alter the foundation of the State from a unitary one to a federal one.

It is obvious that the unitary state model has failed to provide such equality which has led to the need for such fundamental reform, and therefore, the only other model that can guarantee the desired equality of status, regardless of size, is a federal model.
— Would a definition of Tobago contravene international law or cause a hindrance to the favourable resolution of matters regarding Trinidad and Tobago’s territorial waters?

6 — The Committee to revisit the 20 May 2021 drafts of the CPC ( See the attached).

— The proposal of a federal model is outside the remit of the Committee.

- The Committee to seek clarification from Ambassador Thompson on a draft proposed to confirm Tobago’s authority to administer the marine waters adjacent to the island.
11 (1)(b) — The provision reserving the right of Cabinet to intervene whenever it deems that “an emergency or unforeseen circumstance” exists, undermines the self-governance of Tobago.

— CPC to advise whether there is a precedent for this provision — CPC to also research how emergencies are treated in other jurisdictions.

12 — The CPC proposed the following amendment to Clause 75A.

(2) to confirm Tobago’s authority to administer the maritime space adjacent to the island.
— The Committee agreed to this insertion.

— The Committee to solicit advice from Ambassador Thompson on the proposed amendment.

Page 4 of 22 Proposed amendment to clause 12 “75A.
(2) The exclusive administrative jurisdiction conferred on the Tobago Executive Council by subsection (1)(b) in relation to the list of matters specified in the Fifth Schedule shall extend to such part of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago comprising those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the low watermark of Tobago and as their outer limits, a line measured low seaward watermark, every point of which is at a distance of eleven nautical miles from the nearest point of that low watermark.
from that 14 Section 81A — The term “Premier” is reminiscent of colonial days.

The term “Chief Secretary” is preferred.

— The Committee agreed to maintain the the “Chief Secretary” given title representations made.

15 — The Chair noted that S.120 (2) of the Constitution provides that members of the Public Service Commission are appointed by the President after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Opposition Leader.
It was suggested that the two members from Tobago the Commission be appointed after on consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Minority Leader.

15 – 17 — There were concerns that the proposed veto powers to be given to the Chief Secretary over appointments to top civil service positions in Tobago would inherently politicize the process of such appointments.

— The Committee agreed.

CPC to draft clause.
 The Committee disagreed emphasizing that: (i) the Tobago Division of the Public Service Commission and not the Chief Secretary will be responsible for making appointments to the relevant public offices in Tobago; (ii) the proposed provisions of clause 16 would grant to the Chief Secretary the equivalent power of veto which is accorded to the Page 5 of 22 Clause 18 Chapter 11A — Chapter 11A of the Constitution is repealed and a new Chapter is substituted that spells out the general structure of the Tobago Legislature.
This is a dangerous Act.

This will mean that anytime there is a need for a change, then a constitutional change will have to happen and that will demand a special majority.

Given our nation’s history, constitutional changes are very difficult to come by.

There is even a sinister move to have embedded in the constitution, provisions that will prohibit revenue generation from taxation and from borrowing for a long time.
— Further, the notion of the 2nd Chamber was for a counterfoil for monitoring and oversight of the executive branch.

It was intended to have interests independent of the parties in the primary election form this chamber.

The unicameral system proposed merely mirrors what obtains at the primary election.

This was always a contentious provision in terms of its formulation selection.

Appointments from the President does not satisfy the desire of Tobagonians for an independent the Executive.
system of monitoring and method of Clause 18 141F — Whereas it might be possible to fashion rules in the Standing Orders for the elections of Premier and Deputy Premier as envisaged in Section 8 of the Administration Tobago Bill, the core issue is that the system of selection of the Premier envisaged by the Constitution Bill assigns a role to the losing party in the election of the Premier, contrary to the presumed will of the electorate.
Prime Minister in section 121(3) of the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

In this regard, the Committee did not agree with the assertion that consultations with the Chief Secretary will politicize the process of appointments of public officers in Tobago.

— No change to be made — The proposals before the Committee specifically requested that provisions relating to self-government for Tobago be entrenched in the Constitution to safeguard its arbitrary removal.
them and prevent — The and Elections Boundaries Commission identified concerns with the proposals for the election of persons to the proposed Peoples’ House.

— The Tobago Legislature will have the capacity to enact procedures to facilitate oversight and monitoring as may be desired.

— The Committee’s recommendation of a mixed unicameral chamber is based on sound advice of constitutional experts and the models examined.
Further, a number of stakeholders have agreed with the proposal of an enhanced unicameral system for Tobago.

— The Committee agreed.

It had accepted this proposal at an earlier meeting.

CPC to make the necessary changes.

Page 6 of 22 19 144 21 Fourth and Fifth Schedules The Law Association recommends that the system for the appointment of Prime Minister be applied mutatis mutandis to the appointment of Premier.
If this is accepted, a different system for the appointment of Deputy Premier will have to be devised.

— The parties to the dispute (Cabinet and the Executive Council), who are also responsible to trigger the dispute, are members of the is contrary to Mediation Committee.

This standard practice in which disputes are resolved by the courts of by impartial special- purpose vehicles endowed with judicial powers, as in the current THA Act.
— The PDP recommended that the approach to the Fourth and Fifth Schedule be changed.

Instead of creating a list of areas that Tobago will have legislative control over, there should only be a “CONCURRENT LIST”, which is the list of areas for which the national parliament should have control, providing concurrence and for Island conversations between the Tobago Government and the national parliament.
All areas not listed on this “CONCURRENT LIST”, will automatically fall under the purview of the Tobago Island Government.

This approach will prevent grey areas from developing and will allow for a clearer mandate.

the — No change to be made to Clause 144.

— CPC to insert a new clause 145 Committee’s reinforcing inter- recommendation governmental disputes will be resolved by the Court but after dedicated efforts have been made to resolve disputes by two the government.
relevant organs of that the — With respect to the Fourth Schedule, the Committee did not support the view that a concurrent list will prevent grey areas and minimize conflict.

— The Committee was reminded by the Chairman that this proposal will in fact create two separate legal regimes and consequential constitutional and other legal challenges.
— With respect to the Fifth Schedule, the Committee its earlier reaffirmed decision that the areas of responsibility listed in the Fifth Schedule of the Tobago House of Assembly Act Chap.25:03 should be replicated in the proposed fifth Schedule to Bill along with additional areas necessary to facilitate Tobago’s self-government.

At this stage, what are excepted/omitted are national in nature.
— CPC noted that as the Fifth Schedule is entrenched it was it was necessary to remove item 33- “such other matters as the President — CPC to propose a drafting option to make this possible.
Page 7 of 22 may, by Order, assign to the Assembly.” The CPC amended the act in clause 12 to include a new section which would read as follows: “75A (3) Notwithstanding section 54(3), the President may, by Order subject to negative resolution, amend the Fifth Schedule to add any other matter.” This amendment deals with additions and not deletions.
on both — The Committee’s report should include a recommendation that the organs of State should communicate in the interest of the whole and that national policy decisions affecting Tobago should be clearly explained.

islands Clause 12 23 Draft Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021 Concern Decision — In this Bill there is mention of a Pension Scheme for members.

Will this be retroactive?


There are former members of the House of Assembly who served diligently at great themselves who have, financial cost inadvertently or otherwise been denied a pension for their service.

This should not happen as benefits should be made retroactive and not punitive.

A Pension Scheme for Assembly persons should be for all those who served for the required period.
to — The Minister of Finance and two Cabinet members make up the majority of the proposed 5-member Fiscal Review Commission, with the other 2 members coming from the Executive Council, resulting in a predominance by the Cabinet at decision time.

Further, since the first listed responsibility of the Commission is to “determine and recommend to Parliament the sums required to be (annually) appropriated to Tobago”, what need would there be for a Tobago Legislature, or indeed a Tobago House of Assembly?
The Fiscal Review Commission appears to entrench Tobago’s dependence on the Cabinet.

— The Committee took a decision at an earlier meeting to address this.

— The Committee disagreed with this comment.

— The Fiscal Review Commission is not made up of Members of Cabinet.

Rather, the Chairman will be the Minister of Finance, the Secretary of Finance will be Vice Chairman with two persons appointed by Cabinet and one person appointed by the Executive Council.
28 — The Minister of Finance controls the borrowing rights of the Tobago Island Government.

— The Committee noted the Minister of Finance’s input is essential that Page 8 of 22 all aspect of government for borrowing.

This is critical to the management of the nation’s finances.

29 — The Central Bank controls Tobago’s investment portfolio- The Central Bank controls Tobago’s investment programme, without any option for Tobago to manage its own affairs from Tobago.

— The Committee disagreed.


The JSC proposes that the Tobago Executive Council will be the instructing agency and the Central Bank the executing agency.

Page 9 of 22 PROPOSED DRAFTS OF SECTION 1A and 1B OPTION 1 (In current Bill) Equality of Status 1A.

There shall be equality of status between the Island of Trinidad and the Island of Tobago within the sovereign democratic State of Trinidad and Tobago.

OPTION 2 (Concepts from UNDP and South Africa Constitution) 1A.
The island of Tobago shall be an autonomous region within the unitary sovereign State of Trinidad and Tobago.

All organs of state must preserve the peace, national unity and the indivisibility of the Republic.

OPTION 3 1A.

The island of Tobago shall be an autonomous region within the unitary sovereign State of Trinidad and Tobago and organs of State must respect the status, institution, powers and functions of Government established under this Constitution.
OPTION 4 Mode of exercising legislative and administrative power within the autonomous region of the Island of Tobago 1A.

Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, The Island of Tobago shall be an autonomous region within the unitary sovereign State of Trinidad and Tobago.

1B.
The exercise of the legislative and administrative powers by the organs and bodies of the autonomous region of the Island of Tobago shall– (a) preserve the peace, national unity and indivisibility of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago; and (b) recognize the status, institutions and powers exercised by the Government of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago established under this Constitution [on behalf of the citizens of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago/ with collective responsibility for the peace, order and good governance of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago on behalf of [all][its] citizens].
Page 10 of 22 CPC’s response to the comments of the 17th Meeting Decisions on the Companion Bills: APPENDIX II The Draft Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago-Self Government) Bill, 2020 The Draft Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision 11 - ‘An emergency or CPC- CPC to conduct unforeseen Further instructions to prepare further research.

circumstance’ should options which are attached.


be defined to clarify when Cabinet can intervene and to avoid ambiguity; - Who determines that the intervention of Cabinet is required?

12 - The phrase “Subject to section 75(1) (b)” ‘Without prejudice properly reflects the intention.

to section 75(1)’ NB.

Further change may be needed should be added to when an Option is chosen in Clause 12 (1) (b), relation to clause 11-section 75(1) given that it (b) above.
appears in the current Act 14 The title ‘Chief Secretary’ Further instructions received to is preferred over Premier retain Chief Secretary.

The change has been made throughout the Bills.

15, 16, How is the power of the - CPC to review.


CPC to advise on: 17 Premier to transfer the Clause 16- Proposed new section i. quorum within Chief Administrator to be 121 (6A): the Public Page 11 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision exercised, given the As a result of discussions with the Service uniqueness of this office in Office of the Solicitor General, the Commission; Tobago words “Chief Administrator or” and should be deleted.

ii.
ii.

the making of There is no similar post to which public service the Chief Administrator can be regulations.

transferred under the Salaries and Review Commission.

Re: Clause 16 CPC Noted were the positions of Chief to remove Personnel Officer and Director of reference to Personnel Administration.

“Tobago Division” - Chief Administrator should and replace with have the same terms and another term conditions as a Permanent which does not Secretary.
convey the idea of It is noted that presently the two separate position of Chief Administrator is entities.

currently in Group 1C as well as the position of Permanent Secretary.

The only difference identified is that a Permanent Secretary receives an additional benefit of having a personal chauffeur.

(See attached Comparative Listing.)


Clause 15 and 17- Proposed amendments to section 120 and 124: The composition and quorum of the proposed Tobago Divisions of Page 12 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision the Public Service Commission and the Teaching Service Commission are not expressed which may lead to ambiguity.
Proposed amendment to section 120 (2): “(b) by deleting subsection (2) and substituting the following; (2)The members of the Public Service Commission- (a) other than the members ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President, after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Leader the of Opposition; and (b) ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President after consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Minority Leader”.
Clause 16- Proposed new section 121 (5A): Proposed amendment to (5A) to insert after the word “Before”, the words “Tobago Division of”: Page 13 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision “(5A) Before t h e T o b a g o D i v i s i o n o f the Public Service Commission makes any appointment in Tobago to the office of Chief Administrator, Administrator, to a head of a department in a Division and to a chief professional advisor in a Division, it shall consult the Chief Secretary.” Proposed amendment to section 124 (2): “(b) by deleting subsection (2) the substituting and following: (2) The members of Teaching Service Commission- the shall by (a) other than the members in ordinarily resident be Tobago, the appointed President, after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Leader the of Opposition; and (b) ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President after consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Minority Leader”; Page 14 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision 18 – This clause should be AG and CPC to work out the 141P replaced by the following: computation of time rules using the - A general election Feb 28th scenario of members of the Last primary election- Friday 28 House of Assembly February, 2020 shall be held at Writs of Election should be then such time within issued by the Election and three months after Boundaries Commission on or every dissolution before Thursday February 1 2024. of the House of Nomination Day- Friday 16 Assembly as the February, 2024.
President, acting Next election- Monday 11 March, in accordance with 2024.

If it falls on a public holiday the advice of the or general election- Monday 18 Chief Secretary, March, 2024. shall appoint.

(See attached opinion) 141Q Bernadette Solomon – Section 141 Q (6) Where The Committee agreed to the any Secretary has been proposal assigned responsibility for (….an Administrator whose office any Division of the Tobago shall be equivalent to Deputy Island Government, he Permanent Secretary).
shall exercise general The CPC was asked to advise where direction and control over in the proposed law this can be that Division and, subject placed or if it should be better placed to such direction and in a consequential amendment.
control, the Division shall The following provision be under the supervision may be placed in the Tobago of an Administrator whose Island Government Bill: office shall be a public office of a level no lower “The terms and conditions of service of an Page 15 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision than that of a Deputy Administrator shall be equivalent Permanent Secretary.

to those of a Deputy Permanent Secretary.”.


19 Lynette Stephenson – Clause 19 – Section 144 The Committee agreed to: “Mediation Committee”.

“Dispute Resolution Committee’.

The use of that title is a Note to CPC: See principles in sec 41 misnomer.

Mediators (3) and (4) of the South African must be independent Constitution referred to by the AG persons and a mediation CPC- process where the Excerpt attached.
antagonists are members May include the following of that Committee does provision: not make sense.

A change “145.

Where there is an of name is necessary and it intergovernmental dispute both will be more productive parties to the dispute shall make for the relevant mediating every reasonable effort to settle body to be wholly the dispute by means of independent.
Mediation is mechanisms and procedures used as a means to save provided for that purpose, and time and to obviate the shall exhaust all other remedies need to go to court, before it approaches a court to therefore subsections (4) resolve the dispute.” and (5) should be deleted.
Fifth Leroy George – Committee to refer Schedul I notice that while our air The Committee agreed to include in the proposed e and seaports fall under the the Bills’s Fifth Schedule, all areas clause to authority of the THA in the listed in the Fifth Schedule of the Ambassador present Act 40 of 1996, no Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

Thompson.

mention of Tobago's 25:03 authority over these ports CPC Page 16 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision of entry (imports etc.)
and Proposed amendment to clause 12 exit (exports etc.)

was “75A.

(2) The exclusive mentioned in this video.
administrative jurisdiction conferred on the Tobago Executive Council by subsection (1)(b) in relation to the list of matters specified in the Fifth Schedule shall extend to such part of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago comprising those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the low watermark of Tobago and as their outer limits, a line measured seaward from that low watermark, every point of which is at a distance of eleven nautical miles from the nearest point of that low watermark.
(3) Notwithstanding section 54(3), the President may, by Order subject to negative resolution, amend the Fifth Schedule to add any other matter.”.

12 (3) Ancil Dennis Draft Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021 12.

(3)The House of The Committee agreed that Assembly Assembly shall, in Members and Senators should be accordance with the included as ‘Legislators’ in the Financial Rules made Retiring Allowances (Legislative under section 30, Service) Act, Chap.

2:03.
2:03.

Page 17 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision establish a pension The CPC to advise on the drafting of scheme for the Members this as a consequential amendment.

of the House of Assembly: CPC Response- This should be Draft of consequential embedded in law.

Either amendment being prepared.

through its inclusion in the national arrangements (Retiring allowances legislative services Act.)

or Tobago law.

13(2) Ancil Dennis 13.


(2) The President The Committee agreed to delete the shall, after consultation words ‘the Prime Minister and’ with the Prime Minister and the Premier, fix the CPC date of a bye-election for Change made.
the election of an Assemblyman/ Assemblyperson, which date shall not be earlier than the expiration of two months after the declaration of the vacancy nor later than the expiration of three months after that declaration: Page 18 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision Response- This should be replaced by the following clause: The President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary, shall fix the date of a bye-election for the election of an Assembly Member, which date shall not be later than the expiration of three months after that declaration.
20 Bernadette Koroma - Solomon- - The Committee was not of the CPC to change Island The Tobago Government Act, 2021: The functions of the Clerk is enhanced according to Section 20.

Since the duties are increased the compensation level of should be no lower than that of the Clerk of the House (Trinidad).
In that regard Section 20 (2) and Section 20 (9) should be amended as follows: Section 20 (2) The offices of the Clerk of the House of Assembly and Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly are established as public offices which shall be no lower than the view that the Clerk of the clause to read: Assembly should be at the level of (3) The terms the Clerk of the House.
and conditions of service of the Clerk of the The Committee agreed that the office House of of Clerk of the Assembly shall be Assembly shall equivalent to Administrator (Deputy be equivalent to Permanent Secretary) those of an Administrator.

The CPC was asked to advise where in the proposed law this can be The Committee placed or if it should be better placed agreed that the in a consequential amendment.
Salaries Review Commission will Page 19 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision Clerk of the house and Deputy Clerk of the House in Trinidad.

Renumbered Clause 19- decide the terms “(3) The terms and and conditions of Section 20 (9) The Clerk of the House should be an Accounting Officer no lower than that of the Clerk of the House in Trinidad.

Once these matters are addressed legislatively they shall bring Public Officers in the island of Tobago on parity with their in Trinidad.
counterparts 22 Ancil Dennis in shall Parliament appropriate for the use of the House of Assembly for any financial year no less than 6.8 percent of the total sum appropriated by Parliament that financial year or such other percentage to be determined by the Fiscal and Commission approved the Parliament by Resolution: Response- Such funding should be released to the Tobago Island Government quarterly en bloc.
by conditions of service of the Clerk the Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly shall be of the House of equivalent to those of a Deputy Assembly.

Permanent Secretary.

(4) The terms and conditions of service of the Deputy Clerk of the House of Assembly shall be equivalent to those of XXX.” The Committee agreed to include that funding should be released to the Tobago Island Government quarterly en bloc.
Provision inserted as clause 24 (2) “(2) Monies appropriated by Parliament for the service of the financial year of the House of Assembly shall be credited to the Tobago Fund in quarterly releases in advance en bloc.” Page 20 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision 28 Lynette Stephenson CPC to advise on AG to advise on legal personality.
the legal CPC- personality of the Tobago Executive It is noteworthy that in section 75 Council of the Constitution the Cabinet is not expressly given legal personality but rather provides that the Cabinet has direction and control of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and the same objective should apply to the Tobago Executive Council.

 What the is rationale for the Government (which I believe refers to the State of Trinidad and to Tobago) the indemnify Bank Central against all loses etc.
arising from and duties its as obligations manager of investments from the Tobago Fund when said the Government is not a party to any arrangement is made which between the Central Bank and the Tobago Executive Council which is not a legal That person?

situation must be clarified.

Does Tobago have a Credit Rating?

Does the Body wishing to borrow have legal personality?
Laws will have to be enacted to authorize the Tobago Island Government to borrow on the domestic Page 21 of 22 Clause Stakeholder Comment CPC Response Decision market and the internationally.
Page 22 of 22 MINUTES OF THE 19TH MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON TUESDAY MAY 20, 2021 AT 1:39 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Member Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Member Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Assistant Secretary Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Ms. Rebecca Rafeek Procedural Officer Intern Researcher Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC) Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Janelle Smith Ms. Julie Gonzales Legal Intern Mrs. Nisha Sookram Loutan Legal Intern Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag) Policy Research Officer Legal Officer I Page 1 of 22 Law Reform Commission (LRC) Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Member ABSENT / EXCUSED The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom COMMENCEMENT 1.1 The Chairman called the meeting to order at 1:39 p.m. and welcomed all those present.
CONFIRMATION OF THE MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Eighteenth Meeting held on May 25, 2.1 2021.

The Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Mr. Nigel De Freitas and 2.2 seconded by Dr. Dillon-Remy.

MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 3.1 3.1 The Chairman informed members that the Committee was in receipt of further comments from the Minister of Finance as well as comments from the Elections and Boundaries Commission (EBC) and that these comments were uploaded to rotunda.
CONSIDERATION OF STAKEHOLDER COMMENTS BY CLAUSE 4.1 The Committee considered the comments of the Minister of Finance and the Election and Boundaries Commission.

There were extensive discussions.

The particulars of the deliberations and decisions made are reflected in Appendix I.

Page 2 of 22 CLAUSE BY CLAUSE EXAMINATION OF REDRAFTED BILLS 5.1 The Committee considered the redrafted clauses of the companion Bills which incorporated decisions taken by the Committee based on stakeholders’ comments.
The redrafts are at Appendix II together with the decisions taken in this regard.
NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Friday May 6.1 28, 2021 at 1:30 p.m. 6.2 At its next meeting, the Committee would continue consideration of suggested redrafts of certain provisions of the companion Bills, review the Draft Report and, if possible, hear from experts on the issue of the administrative jurisdiction of Tobago proposed to be inserted into the draft Tobago Island Government Bill.

ADJOURNMENT 7.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.
7.2 The adjournment was taken at 5:22 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.

27 May, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 3 of 22 The Draft Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Concern Decision APPENDIX I Cl 20 Fifth Sch — The Ministry of Finance remains steadfast in its position that the 5th Schedule should not be amended to include the power to borrow without oversight, otherwise the TIG may find itself in a situation where it cannot service its debt.
— The Committee agreed that it was reasonable for the power to borrow to be overseen by the Minister of Finance for the following reasons: i. Trinidad and Tobago will still be a unitary state for which the Minister of Finance is responsible for the State’s finances; ii.

All state entities are monitored by the Ministry of Finance; and iii.

The power to borrow granted to the Tobago Executive Council should not be unlimited.
— The Tobago House of Assembly (Amendment) Bill, 2021 provides that the number of electoral districts be is not yet fifteen (15) but proclaimed.

— CPC to look at the corresponding and consequential amendments to the Elections and Boundaries (Local Government and Tobago House of Assembly) Act, Chap.

25:50 to provide for fifteen (15) electoral districts in this regard.
18 141B — Part III of the Second Column of the First Schedule to the Elections and Boundaries (Local Government and Tobago House of Assembly) Act, Chap.

25:50 has fixed the number of electoral districts at twelve (12).

Cl Concern Decision Draft Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021 24 — The Ministry of Finance is of the view that the context of the “Tobago Fund” is not clear from the draft Bill.

— The current Tobago House of Assembly Fund is guided by the Tobago House of Assembly Rules 1990.
Section 30 of the draft Bill states “The Tobago Legislature shall approve Financial Rules as are necessary for the proper management of finances.” The Tobago House of Assembly Financial Rules 1990 can be used in conjunction with the Financial — The Bill allows for the Tobago Island Government to make financial rules and its regulations finances.

Therefore, the Bill need not be adjusted to include said provisions which would be better situated in regulations.
for the management of Page 4 of 22 for the new Regulations as a basis Regulations.

However additional guidance will be needed for the administration of loan and grant funding as these are normally functions of Central Government.

— Additional guidance will be needed for the administration of loan and grant funding as these are normally functions of Central Government.

28 — The Tobago Island Government should be a legal entity in order to borrow and invest and to otherwise contract.
29 — The separation of funds to distinguish investments from other monies retained.

N/A — There should be a body/unit established in Tobago to function as a Treasury Division for a number of purposes re Tobago, including the payment of Pensions to Civil Servants who serve the Tobago Island Government.

— As the Tobago Island Government will not have administrative powers over taxation, taxes for the Island of Tobago would still be collected by the Board of Inland Revenue.
— Therefore, these taxes would not be monies that would be “lawfully collected” by the Tobago Island Government but would be monies collected by the BIR in Tobago that ought to be held in account for Tobago.

— The Committee agreed.

— CPC to make the relevant amendment.

— However, the Committee noted that there is no expressed provision in the Constitution declaring the Cabinet a legal entity and the same should apply to the TEC.
— The CPC to advise on who would be given authority for the power to borrow in the Tobago Island Government Bill.

— The Committee was of the view that the TIG would be able to liaise directly with the Central Bank and the rules to govern this relationship would be outlined in subsidiary legislation.

The Committee noted that this is not recommended because it is a complex matter that requires further examination.
— The input of Central Government is required since verification by the Auditor General is part of the audit process.

— There must be equity in the assignment of positions, salaries and pensions payable to officers in both Trinidad and Tobago.

N/A Page 5 of 22 N/A — Under Section 4 of the Income Tax Act, the BIR may share general information with the Fiscal Review Commission on revenue collection but not taxpayers’ personal or private information.
— The sharing of taxpayer information with the Fiscal Review Commission of the Tobago Island Government in light of section 4 of the Income Tax Act.

Under Section 4 of the Income Tax Act, the IRD can share general Fiscal Review information with Commission on revenue collection, but not the personal or private information of is not recommended that It taxpayers.

Section 4 of the Income Tax Act be amended as it could lead to serious challenge about the right to privacy.
the Page 6 of 22 Cl 5 The Draft Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Concern Decision APPENDIX II — The language makes it clearer that the islands are equal within the unitary state.

— The reference to ‘ward’ to be expressly revoked.

— CPC to draft a preamble to the Tobago Island Government Bill which reflects the statement of intent in Clause 5.

The CPC offered three options for the decision of the Committee.
Rather than a definite the statement in the section, it should be placed in the preamble.

The proposed amendments by the CPC address the issue of Tobago being a ward of Trinidad.

Issue of whether there is a need to go beyond “equality of status” and repeal Tobago being a ward in the Constitution instead of a subsequent repeal.

Issue of how “self-governing” will be interpreted in the Constitution due to the legal complexities of Constitutional Interpretation.

“The State 1A.
“The State 1A.

There shall be equality of status between the Island of Trinidad and the Island of Tobago within the sovereign democratic State of Trinidad and Tobago.

1B.

Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Island of Tobago shall be a self-governing region within the unitary sovereign State of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

1C.
All organs of the State in the exercise of their powers and functions shall recognise that– (a) the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is a unified country, within which the Island of Tobago enjoys self-government status; (b) the institutions of the Government of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago reflect the totality of the people of the Republic; and Page 7 of 22 (c) the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago has one economy which requires the free movement of people, goods and labour between the Island of Trinidad and Island of Tobago.
8 1.

Section 52 of the Constitution is amended- — The Committee agreed.
(a) by inserting after subsection (1), the following: “(1A) Any question whether- (a) any person has been validly appointed as a member of the House of Assembly; (b) any member of the House of Assembly has vacated his seat or is required, under section 141L(2), to cease to exercise any of his functions as a member of the House of Assembly; or (c) any person has been validly elected as Presiding Deputy or Officer Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly in accordance with section 141E, shall be determined by the High Court.”; and (b) in subsection (2), by inserting after the words “subsection (1)” the words “and subsection (1A)”.
9 — The Committee to make a determination as to whether the Fourth Schedule should be in the Constitution Amendment (TSG) Bill of the Tobago Island Government Bill and insert provisions to allow for amendment as may be required.

— The Committee agreed to move the Fourth and Fifth Schedules Island to Government Bill the Constitution will read “to the Tobago and the Page 8 of 22 matters as prescribed.” 2.
Section 53 of is amended by renumbering that section as section 53(1) and inserting the following subsection: the Constitution “(2) Subject to subsections (1) and (3), the Tobago Legislature may make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago with respect to the matters [set out in the Fourth Schedule/as prescribed].
Fourth Schedule (3) The power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws shall not extend to- (a) altering the provisions of this Constitution; or (b) any of the matters set out in Chapter 1 of this Constitution.

(4) Where a Tobago Act is inconsistent with an Act passed by Parliament, the Act passed by Parliament shall prevail to the extent of the inconsistency.

— The Committee agreed that “shall prevail” would be added to 9 (6) for consistency with 9(4).
(5) Subject to subsection (6), the power of Parliament to make laws having effect in Tobago shall not extend to any of the matters [set out in the Fourth Schedule/as prescribed under subsection (2)].
(6) At any time when it is expressly declared in any Act passed by Parliament that a provision in that Act, being a provision that relate to a matter [Fourth Schedule/ as prescribed under subsection (2)] is required to have effect in Tobago- (a) in the interests of external affairs; (b) in the interests of national security; (c) in relation to a state of public emergency; or (d) in relation to a national financial crisis, that provision shall accordingly have effect in the island of Tobago, and where there is any inconsistency between that provision and the provision of any Act passed by the Page 9 of 22 Tobago Legislature, the provisions of the Act passed by Parliament shall prevail the inconsistency.” the extent of to — The Committee agreed to the deletion of the reference to the Fourth and Fifth Schedules in the Constitution Amendment (TSG) Bill.
— The Committee agreed to the inclusion of 12(3) and that it addresses of possible unwarranted Cabinet intervention.

concern the 10 10.

Section 54(3)(b) of the Constitution is amended by – (a) inserting after the word “139”, the words “, 141A to 141R”; and [(b) deleting “and Third the words Schedules” and substituting the words “, Third, Fourth and Fifth Schedules”.]
12 Section 75 of the Constitution is amended- (a) by repealing subsection (1) and substituting the following subsection: “(1) There shall be a Cabinet for Trinidad and Tobago which shall have– (a) the general direction and control of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and shall be collectively responsible therefor to Parliament; and (b) in relation to Tobago, no responsibility for the matters [set out in the Fifth Schedule/as prescribed under section 75A(1)(b)], unless there is an emergency or unforeseen circumstance requiring the intervention of the Cabinet.”; and (b) by inserting after subsection (2), the following subsections: “(3) In determining whether is an emergency [or unforeseen circumstance] requiring its intervention under subsection (1)(b), the Cabinet shall consider the following matters: there (a) (b) there is an expressed request or invitation from the Tobago Executive Council; where a request under paragraph (a) has not been received within a reasonable Page 10 of 22 in the circumstances, Cabinet period through a Minister shall endeavor to consult with the Tobago Executive Council; or (c) due to the urgency of the circumstances, consultation under paragraph (b) has not been possible and is not practicable.
(4) Where Cabinet has intervened under subsection (1)(b) the Tobago Island Government shall co- operate with the Cabinet in the management of the emergency or unforeseen circumstance.

(5) Subsection (3) shall not apply where a state of public emergency has been declared pursuant to section 8.”.

13 The Constitution is amended by inserting after section 75, the following sections: 75A.
(1) There shall be a Tobago Executive Council which shall have- (a) the general direction and control of the Tobago Island Government and shall be collectively responsible the Tobago Legislature; and therefor to (b) subject to section 75(1)(b), exclusive jurisdiction for the administration within Tobago of the matters [set out in the Fifth Schedule/as prescribed].
[(2) The exclusive administrative jurisdiction conferred on the Tobago Executive Council by subsection (1)(b) in relation to the list of matters specified in the Fifth Schedule shall extend to such part of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago comprising those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the low watermark of Tobago and as their outer limits, a line measured seaward from that low watermark, every point of which is at a distance of six nautical miles from the nearest — The Committee agreed — CPC to move the drafted clauses 13 (2)-(3) in the Tobago Island Government Bill.
Clause 13 (3) will be modified slightly as a schedule in the Tobago Island Government Bill.

— Further advice from experts to be sought in regard to the draft proposal to grant administrative jurisdiction to the TEC.

Page 11 of 22 point of that low watermark.

(3) Notwithstanding section 54(3), the President may, by Order subject to negative resolution of Parliament, amend the Fifth Schedule to add any other matter.]

— This clause was brought up from 141Q closer to the — The Committee Agreed.
establishment of the executive council.

75B.

(1) The Tobago Executive Council shall comprise- (a) the Chief Secretary; (b) the Deputy Chief Secretary; and (c) such number of other Secretaries, selected from among the Assembly Members appointed by the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary.

(2) One of the Secretaries appointed under subsection (1) (c) shall be the Secretary of Legal Affairs who shall be an Attorney-at-law admitted to practise in Trinidad and Tobago.

”.
”.

16 — Deleted reference to Tobago Division and considered quorum.
Section 120 of the Constitution is amended – (a) in subsection (1), by deleting the words “two nor more than four other members”, and inserting the words “four nor more than six other members, two of whom shall be ordinarily resident in Tobago”; and (b) by deleting subsection (2) and substituting the following; “(2)The members of the Public Service Commission- (a) other than the members ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the of — The Committee agreed to delete the reference to the Tobago Service Division Commission and included a reference to quorum in Clause to 19 and an amendment Section 129 of the Constitution.
the Page 12 of 22 President, after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition; and (b) ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President after consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Minority Leader.”.

(c) by inserting after subsection (1), the following subsection: “(1A) The Public Service Commission shall have a Tobago Division which shall have the power as set out in section 121(1) in relation to the offices under the Tobago Island Government.”.
18 Section 124 of the Constitution is amended- (a) in subsection (1), by deleting the words “four other members”, and inserting the words “six other members, two of whom shall be ordinarily resident in Tobago”; and (b) by deleting subsection (2) and substituting the following; “(2) The members of the Teaching Service Commission- — The Committee agreed to delete the reference to the Tobago Division of the Service Commission and included a reference to quorum in Clause 19 and an amendment to Section 129 of the Constitution.
(a) other than the members ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President, after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition; and (b) ordinarily resident in Tobago, the shall be appointed by President after consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Page 13 of 22 Minority Leader.”.
(c) by inserting after subsection (1), the following subsection “(1A) The Teaching Service Commission shall have a Tobago Division which shall have the power as set out in section 125 in relation to the offices under the Tobago Island Government.”.

19 — Reference to quorum.

Concern that the quorum includes 2 members appointed from Tobago.

This would mean that there cannot be any meeting unless the two members appointed from Tobago are present.
Section 129 of the Constitution is amended by inserting after subsection (2), the following subsection: “(2A) Notwithstanding subsection (2), where a Service Commission meets, in the exercise of its power in relation to a matter in Tobago, the quorum shall include the two members appointed from Tobago.” 18 — The EBC concerns were addressed in this clause.

If we were to keep this insertion and the THA Amendment Act is not proclaimed.

If proclaimed there will be a conflict.


There will be need for a consequential amendment at a later stage.

141B.
141B.

The House of Assembly shall consist of – in accordance with (a) fifteen Assembly Members elected at an election held the Representation of the People Act and who are qualified to be electors under section 12 of the Representation of the People Act, or such other number of Assembly Members as corresponds with the number of electoral districts as provided for by an Order made by the President; 21 The Constitution is amended by inserting after section 143, the following sections: 144.
Where there is an intergovernmental dispute, both parties to the dispute shall make every reasonable effort to settle the dispute by means of mechanisms and procedures provided — The Committee to change from 2 members to “at least 1”.

agreed — This provision addresses the EBC’s concerns relevant to the number of electoral districts in for Tobago as changes necessary.

provides be made and to — If the THA (Amendment) Act, 2021 is proclaimed there would be a conflict and a consequential amendment required.
— The Committee agreed that the CPC would provide a re-draft from the consideration of a litigation perspective but which retains the principle of the provision for intergovernmental dispute resolution.

Page 14 of 22 or adopted for that purpose, and shall exhaust all other remedies before it approaches a court to resolve the dispute.

145.

(1) A Dispute Resolution Committee is established.


(2) The Dispute Resolution Committee shall comprise five members as follows: (a) the Prime Minister, who shall be the Chairman or his alternate; (b) the Chief Secretary, who shall be the Vice Chairman or his alternate; (c) two persons appointed from the members of the Cabinet; and (d) one person appointed from the the Tobago members of Executive Council.
(3) The Dispute Resolution Committee shall have the jurisdiction to mediate or mitigate any disputes that may arise in relation to the exercise of administrative powers [set out in the Fifth Schedule/as prescribed].

Operation and procedures of the House of Assembly (Note cl 16 of TIG Bill provides for Standing Orders).

— The Committee agreed that this provision would be drafted into the Tobago Island Government Bill.

— CPC to draft.

34.

Office of the [House of Assembly/ Tobago Legislature].
— CPC to confirm the name of the Office.

5th sch edul e Clause 3 Concern Draft Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021 Decision “Fiscal Review Committee” means the — The Bill allows for the Tobago Island Page 15 of 22 Fiscal Review Committee established under section 45; — Name changed because of composition.

5 — Schedule 5 is now Schedule 1: 5.


(1) In accordance with the powers under section 75(A) (1) (b) of the Constitution, the Tobago Executive Council shall have exclusive jurisdiction for the administration within Tobago of the matters set out in Schedule 1.

Government to make financial rules and regulations for the management of its finances.

Therefore, the Bill need not be adjusted to include said provisions which would be better situated in regulations.

— The Committee agreed to the amendment.
(2) The exclusive conferred on administrative the Tobago jurisdiction, Executive Council by subsection (1) in relation to the list of matters set out in Schedule 1, shall extend to such part of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago comprising those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the low watermark of Tobago and as their outer limits, a line measured seaward from that low watermark, every point of which is at a distance of six nautical miles from the nearest point of that low watermark.
— — — — Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03.

— Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03.

— Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03.

11.

(1) Each Division of the Tobago Island Government shall be under the supervision of an Administrator who shall be the Accounting Officer of the Division under his supervision.
for — The Committee agreed to the change consequential the and amendments to be made in the relevant schedules of appointments as required.

(2) The terms and conditions of service of an Administrator shall be equivalent to those of a Deputy Permanent Secretary.

12.

Except the responsibility for which is to be retained by the Government under this Act, the offices on those offices, for — Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03.
25:03.

Page 16 of 22 27 34 the establishment of the former Assembly and of the Central Administrative Services, Tobago, and persons holding those offices, immediately before the date of the coming into force of this Act shall, on that date, be transferred to the Tobago Island Government and all rights, privileges and conditions of service incidental to such offices shall be retained under this Act.

13.
13.

Subject to the guidelines prescribed or issued by the Government in respect of the employment of persons on contract, the Tobago Island Government may appoint on contract such persons as it thinks fit.

15.

In accordance with the powers under section 53 (2) of the Constitution, the Tobago Legislature may make laws with respect to the matters set out in the Schedule 3.
(3) The House of Assembly shall, in accordance with the Financial Rules made under section 41, establish a pension scheme for the Members of the House of Assembly.1 (3) The terms and conditions of service of the Clerk of the House of Assembly shall be equivalent to those of an Administrator.
(1) Notwithstanding section 13 of the Exchequer and Audit Act, all revenue collected in Tobago on behalf of the Government and payable thereto in respect of activities undertaken or discharged in Tobago shall be paid into the Tobago Fund.

(2) Upon the coming into force of this Act, any company, financial institution or a person operating a business in Tobago shall pay in Tobago all taxes, fees, duties, levies and other imposts in respect of its operations in Tobago.
(3) Monies credited to the Tobago Fund in — Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03.

— Fourth Schedule the Constitution bill is now new schedule 3. from of Assembly, — If an amendment is made to the Retiring Allowances (Legislative Service) Act to include Members of the House this subsection may have to be deleted.

— The Committee to seek the advice of the Minister of Finance on whether Members of the Assembly should be considered legislators.

— The Committee agreed.


— 34 (1) taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03.

1 If an amendment is made to the Retiring Allowances (Legislative Service) Act to include Members of the House of Assembly, this subsection may have to be deleted.

Page 17 of 22 35 36 38 41 42 45 47 48 accordance with subsections (1) and (2) shall be set-off against the annual allocation appropriated by Parliament to the Tobago Fund.
All expenditure incurred by the Tobago Island Government shall be paid out of the Tobago Fund — Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03.

— Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03.

— CPC to remove as there may be no need for this clause on the surrender of surplus monies in the Tobago Island new Government’s dispensation.

The accounts of the Assembly are public accounts of Trinidad and Tobago for the purposes of section 116 of the Constitution.
(1) Subject to subsection (2), where in any financial year, monies paid into the Tobago Fund in accordance with section 32 exceed the quantum appropriated by Parliament to the Tobago Fund for that year, the Tobago Island Government shall retain fifty per cent or such larger portion as the Minister with responsibility for finance, may by Order specify in respect of that year, of such excess to be applied towards such projects as it considers fit.
(2) The Tobago Island Government shall surrender the balance of the excess to the Consolidated Fund within the first quarter of the following financial year.

The Tobago Legislature shall approve Financial Rules as are necessary for the proper management of its finances.

— CPC to resolve which entity is empowered to make the Financial Rules.
In any civil or criminal proceedings in respect of any monies or other property whatsoever belonging to, or under the control of the Tobago Island Government, it shall be sufficient to describe the same as being the monies or property of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

45.

(1) There shall be established a Fiscal Review Committee which shall comprise– — The Committee agreed to the name change of the FRC.
A person who is employed in the Assembly shall, with the approval of the appropriate service commission, be transferred to the staff of the Tobago Island Government and any such transfer shall be on the existing terms and conditions of service, unaltered.

— Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03.

Notwithstanding section 55, the persons who were Assemblymen of the former Assembly — Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.
25:03 Page 18 of 22 immediately prior to the coming into force of this Act shall, on its coming into force, be deemed to have been elected as Assembly Members pursuant to section 141B of the Constitution.

49 Upon the coming into force of this Act- — Taken from THA Act.

No comments.

(a) all sums of monies credited to and all charges on the former Fund shall be transferred to the Tobago Fund; and (b) all sums of monies appropriated to the former Fund shall be appropriated to the Tobago Fund.
50 Upon the coming into force of this Act- — Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03.

— Modified from THA Act.
(a) all lands and other property of every kind located in Tobago vested in the State except the residences of the President and the Prime Minister are hereby vested in the Tobago Island Government in right of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago; (b) all lands and other property of every kind, including things in action, vested in the former Assembly are hereby vested in the Tobago Island Government; and (c) all the rights, privileges and benefits and all the liabilities and obligations that, immediately before the coming into force of this Act, the former Assembly was to, are hereby entitled or subject transferred to and conferred or imposed upon the Tobago Island Government.
Legal proceedings pending immediately before the coming into force of this Act by or against the former Assembly may, on the coming into force of this Act, be continued by or against the Tobago Island Government as the to proceedings instead of the former Assembly.

the party (1) Notwithstanding the repeal of the Tobago House of Assembly Act by this Act, the Tobago House of Assembly Financial Rules, 1990 (made — CPC to confirm that 1990 is the existing Financial rules in THA.
The point of made or approved need to be Page 19 of 22 51 52 53 54 56 59 under the said former Tobago House of Assembly Act) shall, until such time as Financial Rules made/approved under section 41 come into force, remain in force and apply to the House of Assembly with such modifications as are necessary for conformity with this Act.

(2) A reference in any written law to the former Assembly shall be construed as a reference to the House of Assembly or the Tobago Island Government, as the case may be.
to (3) A reference Assemblyman shall be construed as a reference to Assembly Member.

in any written law The Tobago Island Government and the Tobago Legislature, in pursuance of their functions, are subject to the Central Tenders Board Act or the Public Procurement and Disposal of Public Property Act, as the case may be.

confirmed.

— Taken from the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chap.

25:03 and modified.
25:03 and modified.

The Committee agreed that: — The change in 52 (2) is is to reflect the that Legislature would now be separated.

the Assembly and — 53 (2) reflects the name change to Assembly member from Assembly man.

— The Committee agreed that section 53 be deleted and that this provision be reflected in an amendment to the Public Procurement and Disposal of Property Act No.

1 of 2015 relevant to the definition of a public body.
The President may by Order, subject to negative resolution of Parliament, amend Schedule 1 and Schedule 3 to add any other matter.

— The Retiring Allowances (Legislative Services) Act is amended… The Trinidad and Tobago Act 1887 is amended by revoking clause 2 of the Trinidad and Tobago Order in Council, 1898.

Schedule 1 1.

Finance, that is to say the collection of revenue and the meeting of expenditure incurred in the carrying out of the functions of the House of Assembly.
Except- Banking (Central and Commercial) Borrowing (External) Foreign Exchange and Exchange Control — CPC to finalise this amendment with guidance the Ministry of Finance (BIR Division) relevant to the pension scheme.

from — The Committee agreed that this provision needs to be explained carefully.

— The CPC was still in the process of drafting the clause but it would result in a revoking of Clause 2 of the Order in Council 1898 and the reference to Tobago as a ward.
— Schedule 5 of the Constitution Amendment (Bill) will now be Schedule 1.

— National pension scheme inserted as instructed.

— Borrowing will remain as an exception according to the advice of the Minister of Finance.

— No.

36 excepts all activities which cannot be derogated from the Central Government.

Page 20 of 22 Taxation Financial Intelligence National Insurance — The title of the Office of the Tobago Legislature to be inserted.

34.

Office of the [House of Assembly/ Tobago Legislature] 36.
Office of the Secretary of Legal Affairs Except- Anti-Money Laundering, Counter Financing of Terrorism and Proliferation Financing (AML/CFT/PF) Appointments to Quasi-Judicial Bodies Children’s Attorney Constitutional Reform Construction of court facilities for the Judiciary The Criminal Justice System Intellectual Property International Office of Child Rights Law Reform Commission Law Revision Commission Legal Service Complaints National Anti-Money Laundering and Counter Financing of Terrorism Committee National Biosafety Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel Office of the Chief State Solicitor Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions Office of the Solicitor General Registrar General Central Authority Council of Legal Education Environmental Commission Equal Opportunity Commission Equal Opportunity Tribunal Hugh Wooding Law School Industrial Court International Law and Human Rights Unit Legal Aid and Advisory Authority Sentencing Commission Page 21 of 22 Tax Appeal Board The list of exceptions for the Secretary of Legal Affairs is extensive because to separate the authority over these bodies would cause complications in litigation proceedings.
SCHEDULE 3 Previously Amendment schedule 4 in Constitution — CPC to insert “the Operations and of procedures Assembly” into the new schedule 3. the House of SCHEDULE 4 A.

Responsibilities of the Central Bank — Note: CPC to address the Committee’s earlier decision related to the mode of appointment of the Chief Secretary/Deputy Chief Secretary in view of stakeholders’ comments.
Page 22 of 22 MINUTES OF THE 20 TH MEETING JOINT SEL ECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION ( AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON FRIDAY MAY 28, 2021 AT 1:35 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Ms. Jearlean John Member Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Member Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Assistant Secretary Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Ms. Rebecca Rafeek Procedural Officer Intern Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Researcher Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC) Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Janelle Smith Ms. Julie Gonzales Legal Intern Mrs. Nisha Sookram Loutan Legal Intern Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag) Policy Research Officer Legal Officer I Page 1 of 10 Law Reform Commission (LRC) Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer Expert Advisors Mr. Delano Bart, QC Former Attorney General, St. Kitts Nevis Mrs. Ida Eversley Deputy Chief Parliamentary Counsel Maritime Services Division Cdr Garnet Best Mr. Brent Williams Maritime Legal Consultant Maritime Consultant The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom COMMENCEMENT 1.1 The Chairman called the meeting to order at 1:35 p.m. and welcomed all those present.
CONFIRMATION OF THE MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Nineteenth Meeting held on May 25, 2.1 2021.

The Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh- 2.2 Sooklal and seconded by Mr. Nigel De Freitas.
MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 3.1 3.1 meeting: The Chairman indicated that the following experts will be in attendance at today’s o Ms. Ida Eversley, Deputy CPC; and o Mr. Delano Bart, QC, St Kitts & Nevis She explained that they were legal experts in the field of Constitutional Law, devolution of powers in federal systems and the Law of the Sea.

3.2 The Chairman indicated that written comments were received from Mr. Bart, Q.C after the 19th Meeting and were uploaded to rotunda.
She advised that Mr. Bart had been Page 2 of 10 engaged by the former Committee and his comments on the drafts represented the continuation of his work in regard to this Bill.

3.3 Mr. Al Rawi explained that Ms. Eversley was one of the Trinidad and Tobago’s leading experts in matters related to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

CONSIDERATION OF RE-DRAFTED CLAUSES The delineation of the waters surrounding Tobago 4.1 Ms. Ida Eversley and Mr. Delano Bart QC made presentations.
4.2 Ms. Eversley cautioned against the delineation of the external waters of Tobago, for the following reasons: i.

The definition of the external waters of a territory within an archipelagic State conflicts with UNCLOS and the general principles of international law, as international law recognises states as legal entities and not subsets of states; ii.

Granting Tobago jurisdiction over waters may conflict with Trinidad and Tobago’s international obligations; iii.
The delineation may also affect Trinidad and Tobago’s territorial waters with respect to Guyana and Barbados; iv.
There are issues such as right of innocent passage, which are under the purview of the central government, specifically the Ministry of National Security, which would prevent Tobago having exclusive jurisdiction over external waters; and v. A Memorandum of Understanding between the island of Trinidad and the island of Tobago within the unitary state could allow for domestic administration of maritime concerns.

4.3 Mr. Delano Bart QC advised as follows: i.


The definition of Tobago’s waters need not be contained in the Constitution, as to amend the Constitution to delineate the waters of Tobago may disrupt Trinidad and Tobago’s standing in international law; ii.

There is no objection to delineating the waters of Tobago in domestic iii.

legislation; If there are any conflicting international obligations, these can be expressly omitted from the jurisdiction of Tobago; iv.
The issue of right of passage could be addressed with legislation; v. The current six (6) nautical miles should be maintained as the move to eleven (11) seems arbitrary.

4.4 The Committee agreed: Page 3 of 10 i.

Express provision should be given to the TIG to exercise exclusive administration over delineated waters within the Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021; to retain the TIG’s administrative jurisdiction of six nautical miles as set out in the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chapter 25:03; ii.

iii.
iii.

CPC to draft the provision, conferring administrative powers over the six nautical mile boundary to the Tobago Island Government, but ensuring that the exclusive jurisdiction is not absolute but subject to the international obligations and national interests of Trinidad and Tobago; and iv.

Ms. Eversley to conduct research on the delineation of waters in archipelagic states.

The principles of equality of status in the preamble and in the Constitution 4.5 Mr. Bart QC advised as follows: i.
While the Bill accords the right of self-determination to the people of Tobago, it does not accord that same right to the people of Trinidad; and ii.

The phrase “equality of status” should refer to the people of Trinidad and the people of Tobago rather than to the respective islands.

Unlike St. Kitts and Nevis, the Bill does not create a federal governance structure and as such “equality of status” between the islands is moot.
4.6 Mr. Bart QC agreed to review the draft preamble and submit his comments by Monday May 31, 2021.

Secretariat to forward to Mr. Bart QC the draft preamble submitted by CPC.

Conflict of law 4.7 The Committee sought advice on how St. Kitts and Nevis resolved conflicts between legislation passed by the Nevis administration that are inconsistent with the legislation passed by the national parliament of St. Kitts and Nevis.
4.8 Mr. Bart QC recommended that rather than striking out inconsistent provisions in a Tobago Act, the drafters may wish to provide that “the inconsistency can be construed with such modifications, adaptions, or qualifications, and, or exceptions that may be necessary to bring them into conformity with the Act passed by Parliament.” 4.9 In relating, St. Kitts and Nevis’ experience, with respect to Nevis’ provision of offshore banking, the Committee was cautioned that any inconsistency should be promptly addressed before it is too late to make the necessary changes.
Composition of the Dispute Resolution Committee 4.10 Mr. Bart QC advised the following: i. ii.

the Dispute Resolution Committee should be structured to reflect less cabinet dominance; each party to the dispute equally appoint members to the Committee; Page 4 of 10 iii.

iv.
iv.

v. the Chairman would be appointed by the Prime Minister in consultation with the Chief Secretary and not be a member of the Cabinet or the Tobago Executive Council; the decision to consultation with the Prime Minister and Chief Secretary; and there is no need to consult the Minority Leader in the resolution of disputes as this goes against the Westminster model of governance.
implement the recommendations would likewise be in Proposed Financial Provisions 4.11 Mr. Bart QC advised that clear provisions regarding the default of the Tobago Island Government were required.

If the power to borrow is granted and the Tobago Island Government defaults, there will be reputational damage to the island of Trinidad, as well as to the state of Trinidad and Tobago.
CONSIDERATION OF RE-DRAFTED CLAUSES The Committee commenced its consideration of the re-drafted Clauses in 5.1 conjunction with the advice of the experts, Mrs. Ida Eversley and Mr. Delano Bart QC.

There were extensive discussions.

The particulars of the deliberations and decisions 5.2 made are reflected in the Appendix I.

5.2 Mr. Bart QC agreed to review the draft preamble and submit his comments by Monday May 31, 2021.
CONSIDERATION OF THE DRAFT REPORT The Chairman then presented an overview of the Committee’s Draft Report as 6.1 uploaded to the rotunda.

6.2 Members were invited to provide their feedback to the Chairman via email.

The Secretariat was directed to email the Draft Report to Members for their 6.3 consideration.
NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Tuesday 7.1 June 01, 2021 at 1:30 p.m. At its next meeting, the Committee would undertake to review the updated Draft 7.2 Report, as well as finalised drafts of the Bills from the CPC, including the financial Page 5 of 10 provisions given that feedback from the Ministry of Finance to the Committee’s outstanding queries was expected imminently.

ADJOURNMENT 8.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.
8.2 The adjournment was taken at 5:24 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.

29 May, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 6 of 10 APPENDIX I The Draft Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Clause Concern Decision Preamble The CPC offered the following option for the decision of the Committee ca and cb to be inserted in the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago Chapter 1:01.
— The Committee agreed to retain ca(i) — Mr. Bart QC to review and advise “Whereas the People of Trinidad and Tobago (a) have affirmed that the Nation of Trinidad and Tobago is founded upon principles that acknowledge the supremacy of God, faith in fundamental human rights and freedoms, the position of the family in a society of free men and free institutions, the dignity of the human person and the equal and inalienable rights with which all members of the human family are endowed by their Creator; (b) respect the principles of social justice and therefore believe that the operation of the economic system should result in the material resources of the community being so distributed as to subserve the common good, that there should be adequate means of livelihood for all, that labour should not be exploited or forced by economic necessity to operate in inhumane conditions but that there should be for advancement on the basis of opportunity recognition of merit, ability and integrity; (c) have asserted their belief in a democratic society in which all persons may, to the extent of their capacity, play some part in the institutions of the national life and thus develop and maintain due respect for lawfully constituted authority; (ca) recognise- (i) (ii) the right to self-determination of the people of Trinidad and Tobago, including the right of the people of Tobago to determine in Tobago their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development; the equality of status between the Island of Trinidad and the Island of Tobago within the Page 7 of 10 (iii) Nation of Trinidad and Tobago; that the Island of Tobago is a self-governing region within the Nation of Trinidad and Tobago;” (cb) recognise that all organs of the State, in the exercise of their powers and functions, shall maintain and respect that– (i) (ii) (iii) the Nation of Trinidad and Tobago is a unified country, within which the Island of Tobago enjoys a self-government status; the institutions of the State reflect the totality of the people of the Nation of Trinidad and Tobago; and the Nation of Trinidad and Tobago has one economy which requires the free movement of people, goods and labour between the Island of Trinidad and Island of Tobago; (d) recognise that men and institutions remain free only when freedom is founded upon respect for moral and spiritual values and the rule of law; (e) desire that their Constitution should enshrine the above-mentioned principles and beliefs and make provision for ensuring the protection in Trinidad and Tobago of fundamental human rights and freedoms.
— According to the advice of Ambassador Thompson, under international law, the waters of an archipelagic state are indivisible and any delineation would be a purely domestic arrangement.

— Mrs. Eversely advised that the external waters of Tobago remain undefined as this may affect Trinidad and Tobago’s international obligations and run afoul of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).
— Mr. Bart QC was of the view that the waters could be defined and the international requirements Trinidad and Tobago must meet, should be expressly stated.

Issues regarding the right of innocent passage could be addressed in legislation.

6 — CPC to draft provision in TIG Bill to accord the TIG exclusive jurisdiction over maritime areas consistent with what is in current Act.

— Ms. Eversley to conduct research on the delineation of waters in archipelagic states.
Page 8 of 10 — The Committee to decide on the options.

— Mr. Delano Bart QC noted the recommended: i.

Each party to the dispute should equally appoint members to the Committee; and ii.

The Chairman would be appointed by the Prime Minister in consultation with the Chief Secretary and not be a member of either cabinet.

19 OPTION 1 Section 144 (Currently in Bill) 144.


Where there is an intergovernmental dispute, both parties to the dispute shall make every reasonable effort to settle the dispute by means of mechanisms and procedures provided or adopted for that purpose, and shall exhaust all other remedies before it approaches a court to resolve the dispute.

OPTION 2 144.
OPTION 2 144.

Where there is an intergovernmental dispute, both parties to the dispute shall make every reasonable effort to settle the dispute by means of mechanisms and procedures provided or adopted for that purpose, and shall exhaust such mechanisms and procedures, unless there are exceptional circumstances, before it approaches a court to resolve the dispute.

OPTION 3 144.
OPTION 3 144.

Where there is an intergovernmental dispute, both parties to the dispute shall make every reasonable effort to settle the dispute by means of mechanisms and procedures provided or adopted for that purpose before it approaches a court to resolve the dispute.

Clause Concern Decision Draft Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021 Tobago 5 Executive Council: Jurisdiction for administration 5.
(1) In accordance with the powers under section 75(A) (1) (b) of the Constitution, the Tobago Executive Council shall have exclusive jurisdiction for the administration within Tobago of the matters set out in Schedule 1.

— The Committee agreed to retain the TIG’s administrative jurisdiction of six nautical miles as set out in the Tobago House of Assembly Act, Chapter 25:03.
Schedule 1 (2) The exclusive administrative jurisdiction, conferred on the Tobago Executive Council by subsection (1) in relation to the list of matters set out in Schedule 1, shall extend to such part of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago comprising those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the low watermark of Tobago and as their outer limits, a line measured seaward from that low watermark, — CPC to liaise with Mrs Eversley to ensure that draft provision makes clear that the exclusive jurisdiction to is not absolute but subject Trinidad and Tobago’s international obligations and national interests.
Page 9 of 10 every point of which is at a distance of six nautical miles from the nearest point of that low watermark.

Financial Provisions Clauses 22-30 — Mr. Bart QC advised that there should be clear provisions regarding default by the Tobago Island Government as this could result in reputational damage to the state of Trinidad and Tobago and the island of Trinidad, if Tobago were unable to pay its debts.
Page 10 of 10 MINUTES OF THE 21ST MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON TUESDAY JUNE 1, 2021 AT 1:41 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Ms. Jearlean John Member Member Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Assistant Secretary Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Ms. Rebecca Rafeek Procedural Officer Intern Researcher Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC) Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Mr. Jovan Hunte Ms. Janelle Smith Ms. Julie Gonzales Legal Intern Mrs. Nisha Sookram-Loutan Legal Intern Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag) Policy Research Officer Legal Officer I Page 1 of 18 Law Reform Commission (LRC) Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer Mr. Varma Deyalsingh Member ABSENT / EXCUSED The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom COMMENCEMENT The Chairman called the meeting to order at 1:41 p.m. and welcomed all those 1.1 present.
ANNOUNCEMENTS Letter received from Mr. Rambally The Chairman informed the Committee that Mr. Rambally sent a letter addressed to 2.1 the Secretary to the Committee dated May 29, 2021, which is on the Rotunda for the benefit of all Members.

The Chairman thanked Mr. Rambally for his letter.


2.2 The Chairman referred members to the second paragraph of the letter in which Mr. Rambally asserted that the Committee was unable to aspire widespread participation to the call for public comments and was therefore unable to understand what Tobagonians and Trinidadians were thinking on this subject.

The Chairman stated that this comment was inaccurate.
2.3 She reminded Members that in addition to the numerous written comments received in response to the Committee’s call for submissions, 195 persons participated in the Committee’s public survey which all together was a commendable response compared to the usual response received by Committees.

Further, the Chairman added that the two days of public consultations held by the Committee revealed, through oral submissions, a clear pattern of concerns by Tobago, which were well received.
The Chairman explained that the objectives of the call for submissions and oral consultations were thus achieved and that the feedback received provided the Committee with frank and full responses to its draft proposals.
The Chairman added that against that background she was therefore quite concerned that a member of the Committee could infer that, at this stage, the Committee was Page 2 of 18 yet to grasp the thoughts of Tobago stakeholders given that the population of Trinidad and Tobago is approximately 1.4 million.
The Chairman reminded members that the Committee has carefully considered the 2.4 representations made on each issue and reviewed several matrices of stakeholders’ comments both written and oral from individuals as well as groups, and so she rejected the suggestion that those representations and comments could be labeled meager.

2.5 The Chairman explained that the mandate given to the Committee required Members to do quite a bit of work.
She added that such work involved the reading and analyzing of the extensive submissions in order to fully appreciate the length and breadth of commentary and representations obtained, and to participate fully at meetings.

The Chairman reminded Members that, during deliberations, she invites Members to share their viewpoints and concerns on the issues being discussed and does this repeatedly.
The Chairman added that the Committee could not pause its work due to the 2.6 pandemic but that the Parliament had to adapt to the new normal.

The Chairman directed Members to the fourth paragraph of Mr. Rambally’s letter 2.7 which contained an allegation that much of what was asked for by Tobago in the 2016 Bill that gained wide appeal in Trinidad as well as Tobago did not find expression in the work of the Committee.
The Chairman instructed the Secretary to circulate to each member via email the Tobago Bill that was sent to the Cabinet in 2016 and to publish it on the Rotunda.

The Chairman invited Members to observe that the basic principles of that Tobago Bill and the Bill before the Committee remain unchanged except the following: a) That Bill sought to amend section 1 of the Constitution that defined the State of Trinidad and Tobago to separately define the island of Trinidad and the island of Tobago.
For obvious reasons could not be approved and this information was conveyed to the Tobago Forum; b) That Bill sought to equate the law making powers of the proposed Tobago Legislature with those of the national Parliament.

An appropriate amendment was necessary; c) That Bill sought a bicameral Legislature but provided no composition for the proposed Peoples’ House.

She explained that with the assistance of the Tobago Forum, the drafters inserted the desired changes.
She added that apart from those issues, cosmetic changes were made to otherwise prepare the (Tobago) Bill for introduction into Parliament.

Page 3 of 18 2.8 The Chairman explained that in considering the Bill before it, the Committee was fulfilling its mandate which although challenging was not daunting.

2.9 She reiterated that the issues before the Committee have years of history and are therefore not new.
She stressed that the Committee has shown that it appreciates all of that history given the extent of work done by this Committee, its predecessor and the staff of the Committee.

She added that everyone should be pleased and supportive of the assignment which will assure Tobago self-government with the capacity to mold its own processes and systems within a Constitution that defines the powers of such government as well as the boundaries.
2.10 Mr. Rambally assured the Chairman and Members that his correspondence was not intended to offend the Committee or the technical staff supporting the Committee.

He further explained that while the number of respondents for the survey was high for a Parliamentary Committee there was still need to hear from more persons and groups given the significance of the matters being considered by the Committee.
Mr. Rambally reiterated that his correspondence also did not suggest or state that the Committee should stop its work because of the Covid-19 Pandemic but that it should be mindful of its impact on the public’s ability to comment and engage with the Committee.

2.11 A copy of Mr. Rambally’s letter is at appendix I.

CONFIRMATION OF THE MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Twentieth Meeting held on May 28, 3.1 2021.
3.2 The Committee agreed to the following amendment – “Insert new paragraph 3.4 as follows: 3.4 Mr. Rambally raised the concern that the Committee needed to take its deliberations back to the public for further consultations.” 3.3 Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe moved that the minutes, as amended, be confirmed.

Mr. Nigel De Freitas seconded.

The minutes, as amended, were confirmed.


MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Page 4 of 18 Paragraph 5.1 4.1 The Chairman advised Members that the First Draft of the Report was circulated to Members on May 29, 2021 via email.

She added that comments were received from two (2) Members, Dr. Dillon-Remy and the Chairman.

She thanked Dr. Dillon–Remy for her comments.


4.2 Mr. Rambally indicated that he did not receive the email of May 29th and therefore only received his copy of the first draft of the report from the Secretariat this morning.

4.3 Mr. Indarsingh lamented the fact that he received the minutes of the last meeting only moments before the start of the present meeting.

He stated that this made it difficult for him to properly prepare for the meeting.
The Chairman informed Mr. Indarsingh that she understood his point but drew to his 4.4 attention that today was the first working day since the last meeting of the Committee.

The Chairman informed Members that the Second Draft of the Report, dated 31May, 4.5 had been circulated and uploaded earlier in the day.

CONSIDERATION OF THE UPDATES TO THE DRAFT BILLS The Committee considered the updated Bills.

There were extensive discussions.


The 5.1 particulars of the deliberations and decisions made are reflected in Appendix II.

NEXT MEETING The Committee agreed that its next meeting would be held, virtually, on Friday June 6.1 4, 2021 at 1:30 p.m.

The Chairman proposed that the Committee should invite the political leaders in 6.2 Tobago and the Assemblymen to its next meeting, to share with them details on the revisions made to the draft Bills.

The Committee agreed.

However, a discussion ensued.


6.3 Some Members were of the view that the Committee should return the revised drafts to full-scale consultations with Tobago not only with its leaders.

Other Members indicated that the parliamentary process to follow is not the end of discussions but the beginning of a national discourse with full explanations and justifications in the face of the public.
A Member expressed the firm view that the Committee’s work commenced with a discussion with the leaders and should end similarly.

The Chairman confirmed that reporting to the Parliament, is a requirement whether interim or final.

She added that such reporting does Page 5 of 18 not inhibit interested persons whether from Tobago or Trinidad to comment and make submissions on the subject.

6.4 Assemblymen to attend the next meeting of the Committee.
The Secretariat was instructed to issue invitations to the political leaders and The Committee agreed to commence the next meeting with a consideration of the 6.5 draft report.

ADJOURNMENT 7.1 The Chairman thanked Members for attending.

7.2 Mr. Indarsingh took the opportunity to indicate that he was in agreement with the views expressed by Mr. Rambally in his letter referred to earlier and which is appended.

7.3 The adjournment was taken at 6:23 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.


Chairman Secretary June 1, 2021 Page 6 of 18 Appendix I Page 7 of 18 Page 8 of 18 Page 9 of 18 APPENDIX II Clause 4 Preamble Amended The Draft Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Concern Decision The Preamble of the Constitution is amended by inserting after paragraph (c), following paragraph: the “ (ca) recognise- — CPC to delete “access to” in (ca)(ii).
(i) the right to self-determination of the people of Trinidad and Tobago, including the right of the people of the Island of Tobago to determine in Tobago their political status and freely pursue their cultural economic, development; and social and (ii) the equality of status between the people of the Island of Trinidad and the people of the Island of Tobago, enabling them to access a fair share of the resources and access to opportunities available to all the people of the Nation of Trinidad and Tobago;”.
(7) Where there is an inconsistency under subsection (4) or (6) the inconsistency shall, where possible, be construed with such modifications, adaptations, qualifications and exceptions as may be necessary to bring the Tobago Act into conformity with the Act passed by Parliament.” “(6A) Power to make appointments on transfer to the office of Administrator, from one such office to another such office carrying the same salary and allowances, shall vest in the Chief Secretary.’.

8 16 The Committee agreed.


— Research will be undertaken to further understand the power by the Prime Minister to make appointments on transfer.

— The Committee will put this issue to Tobago Leaders to ascertain their views on this clause.

Page 10 of 18 19 20 CHAPTER 11A — CPC to revise the name to “TOBAGO LEGISLATURE.” SELF-GOVERNMENT OF TOBAGO LEGISLATURE 144.
Where there is an intergovernmental dispute, both parties to the dispute shall make every reasonable effort to settle the dispute by means of mechanisms and procedures provided or adopted for that purpose, and shall exhaust such mechanisms and procedures before it approaches a court to resolve the dispute.

— CPC to remove intergovernmental dispute and replace with the actual the Trinidad and Tobago parties, island Government and the Tobago Government.

145.
145.

(1) A Dispute Resolution Committee is established.

— The Committee agreed.

(2)The shall comprise five members as follows: Dispute Resolution Committee — CPC to delete “whether or not to accept the recommendations” in section 145 (3).

(a) two members appointed by the Prime Minister; (b) two members appointed by the Chief Secretary; (c) one member appointed by the President after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary, who shall be the Chairman.
(3) The Dispute Resolution Committee shall make recommendations to the Prime Minister, who shall consult with the Chief Secretary before making a decision whether or not to accept the recommendations.

Clause 4 Draft Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021 Concern Decision (1) No provision of this Act or of a Tobago Act shall be interpreted so as to - — CPC to delete “the” where it appears before Trinidad and Tobago.
(a) authorise anything which is inconsistent with, or in derogation of the Constitution; Page 11 of 18 (b) authorise the operation of a Tobago Act beyond the confines of Tobago; (c) authorise any convention, declaration, treaty, protocol, agreement or any international compact of any sort whatever between the Tobago Island Government and any foreign State; or (d) contradict any obligations of Trinidad and Tobago under any convention, declaration, treaty, any international compact of any sort whatever between the Trinidad and Tobago and any foreign State.
agreement protocol, or (2) The Tobago Island Government shall not do or undertake any action contrary to any obligation of Trinidad and Tobago under any convention, declaration, treaty, protocol, agreement or any international compact of any sort whatever between the Trinidad and Tobago and any foreign State.
(3) The Tobago Legislature shall not enact any law contrary to any obligation of Trinidad and Tobago under any convention, declaration, any treaty, international compact of any sort whatever between the Trinidad and Tobago and any foreign State.

agreement protocol, or 5 (1) In accordance with the powers under section 75(A) (1) (b) of the Constitution, the Tobago Executive Council shall have exclusive jurisdiction for the administration within Tobago of the matters set out in Schedule 1.
(2) The exclusive administrative jurisdiction, conferred on the Tobago Executive Council by subsection (1) in relation to the list of matters set out in Schedule 1, shall extend to such part of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago — Clause 5(1).

CPC to revise to ensure there is clarity on the derogation of powers.

— Clause 5(2).

CPC to replace “six” with “eight”.

Further discussion on this continue on Friday June 4, 2021.

— Sub clauses 5(3) and (4).


CPC to delete Page 12 of 18 comprising those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the low watermark of Tobago and as their outer limits, a line measured seaward from that low watermark, every point of which is at a distance of six nautical miles from the nearest point of that low watermark.
(3) Nothing in subsections (1) and (2) shall – (a) affect the exercise of any power vested by law in the President or a Minister; or the general policy of (b) empower the Tobago Executive Council to take any action that is inconsistent with the Government as signified by the Prime Minister in a written communication to the Chief Secretary, or that relates to a question that in the opinion of the Prime Minister as so signified involves issues of national concern, without the prior concurrence of the Prime Minister.
land and (4) If land in the Island of Tobago is required for the use of the Government, the Tobago Executive Council shall either make available suitable land that is vested in the Tobago Island Government or else acquire and make available other the suitable Government shall be responsible for paying appropriate compensation to any private interests may have been person whose appropriate adversely Island compensation Government for any buildings or other property previously paid for by the Tobago Island Government and appropriated for the use of the Government with the land.
affected to Tobago and the 12 Except for those offices, the responsibility for which is to be retained by the Government under this Act, the offices on the establishment “Central CPC Administrative Services, Tobago” delete to Page 13 of 18 16 39 40 (2) 41 45 (2)(b) 48 of the former Assembly and of the Central Administrative Services, Tobago, and persons holding those offices, immediately before the date of the coming into force of this Act shall, on that date, be transferred to the Tobago Island Government and all rights, privileges and conditions of service incidental to such offices shall be retained under this Act.
The House of Assembly shall have the power to regulate its procedures, including the power to make Standing Orders.

39.

(1) Subject to subsection (2), the Tobago Executive Council shall have the power to borrow locally and internationally such sums as the Tobago Executive Council considers necessary for the discharge of its functions.

its [(2) The Tobago Executive Council shall responsibility the delegate for management [investments/an of investment account] to the Central Bank.
for The Secretary with responsibility finance shall make Financial Rules as are necessary for the proper management of the finances of the Tobago Island Government which Rules shall be approved by the Tobago Legislature.
establish a mechanism for revenue sharing between the Tobago Island Government and the Government of Trinidad and Tobago; (1) A person who immediately before this Act was employed by an institution established under the Tobago House of Assembly Act shall continue in such employment subject to and in accordance with this Act and any other applicable laws regulating such employment.
(2) Executive authority which was vested in any person, immediately before the commencement of this Act, shall during the period in which that to delete CPC Administrative Services, Tobago” “the Central — To be reviewed.

— Power to make Standing Orders to be placed in the Constitution — The Committee agreed.

— CPC to conduct further research and redraft as not all investments will be managed by the Central Bank.

The Committee agreed.

The Committee agreed.

— The Committee agreed.


— CPC to insert provisions re the continuation of Trade Unions.
Page 14 of 18 person continues in office in terms of subsection (1), be exercised in accordance with the Tobago House of Assembly Act, as if it had not been repealed or superseded by this Act, and any such person shall continue to administer any Division or other institution which was entrusted to, and to exercise and perform any power or function which was vested in him immediately before that commencement.
to be competent (3) A person who immediately before the commencement this Act was employed on contract by an institution established under the Tobago House of Assembly Act shall continue in such employment under this Act, until the expiration of the term of the contract.

49 (1) This section applies to an officer who, on the date of the coming into force of this Act- The Committee agreed.
(a) holds a permanent appointment to; or (b) holds a temporary appointment to, and has served at least two continuous years in, an office in the Public Service on the establishment of the Tobago House of Assembly.
(2) A person to whom this section applies may, within three months of the coming into force of this Act exercise one of the following options: (a) voluntarily retire from the Public Service on terms and conditions agreed between him or his appropriate recognized association and the Chief Personnel Officer; to transfer the Tobago (b) Island Government with the approval of the appropriate Service Commission on terms and conditions no less favourable than Page 15 of 18 those enjoyed by him in the Public Service; or (c) remain in the Public Service, provided that an office commensurate with the office held by him in the Public Service prior to the date of the coming into force of this Act, is available.
57 The Retiring Allowances (Legislative Service) Act is amended- The Committee agreed to the insertion.
— CPC to make the following changes in (a) in section 2- (v): — Delete: (i) in the definition of “elected member”, by inserting after the words “the House of Representatives”, the words “, the Senate or the House of Assembly as the context may require.”; (ii) in the definition of “former legislative service”- (A) by deleting the word “or” after the words “the House of Representatives”; (B) by inserting after the words “the House of Representatives”, the words “including the Senate, in accordance with section 3 of the Constitution;”; and (C) by inserting a new subsection (b) as follows: “(b) a member of the House of Assembly; or”; (iii) in the definition of “full parliamentary term”, by inserting after the words “dissolution of Parliament”, the words “or the period commencing on the date of the first meeting of the House of Assembly after the date of the election or appointment to the House of Assembly and expiring at the date of the next ensuing dissolution of the House of Assembly, as the case may be;” Clerk of the House of the Assembly Member of the Tobago Island Government Member Executive Council; and Tobago the of — Insert: Deputy Chief Secretary Vice President of the Senate Member of the Tobago House of Assembly Page 16 of 18 (iv) in the definition of “salary”- (A) in paragraph (a)(i), by inserting after the words “the House of Representatives”, the words “or the House of Assembly”; and (B) in paragraph (a)(ii), by inserting after the words “a Minister”, the words “, a Secretary”; (v) in the definition of “specified legislative office” , by adding to the prescribed offices listed in the Schedule, in the appropriate sequence the following offices: “Member of the Senate Chief Secretary of the House of Assembly Secretary of the House of Assembly Assistant Secretary of the House of Assembly Member of the Tobago Island Government Member of the Tobago Executive Council Councillor Presiding Officer Deputy Presiding Officer Clerk of the House of Assembly Minority Leader.”; and (vi) by inserting the following new
 definition in the appropriate alphabetical sequence: ““Secretary”, unless a contrary intention appears, means a member of the Executive Council of the Tobago Island Government to whom is assigned.”; administrative responsibility (b) in section 5- by inserting in subsection (1)(c)(ii), (i) after the words “the appropriate Minister”, the words “or Secretary, as the case may be”; and Page 17 of 18 by inserting in subsection (3)(a) and (ii) (b), after the words “dissolution of Parliament” the words “or the House of Assembly”; (c) in section 10(2)(b) and (c), by inserting after the words “the appropriate Minister”, the words “or Secretary”; and (d) in section 11(2), by inserting after the words “the Minister of Finance”, the words “or Secretary for Finance” wherever it appears.
60 Schedule 1 Trinidad and Tobago Order in Council, 1898 is amended in clause 2 by deleting the words “, the Island of Tobago shall be a Ward of the Colony of Trinidad and Tobago; and”.

THE LIST OF MATTERS FOR WHICH THE TOBAGO EXECUTIVE COUNCIL SHALL HAVE EXCLUSIVE ADMINISTRATIVE JURISDICTION IN TOBAGO The Committee agreed.

CPC to insert Town and Country Planning.
Page 18 of 18 MINUTES OF THE 22ND MEETING JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 HELD VIRTUALLY ON FRIDAY JUNE 4, 2021 AT 1:40 P.M. Committee Members PRESENT Chairman Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis, MP Member Mr. Nigel De Freitas Member Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Member Mr. Faris Al-Rawi, MP Member Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe, MP Mr. Foster Cummings, MP Member Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP Member Member Mr. Dinesh Rambally, MP Ms. Jearlean John Member Member Mr. Clarence Rambharat Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Mr. Varma Deyalsingh Secretariat Secretary Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary Ms. Sharla Elcock Assistant Secretary Mrs Angelique Massiah Dr. Marcia Carrington-Headley Parliamentary Researcher/Writer Mr. Justin Jarrette Ms. Ria Rampersad Ms. Rebecca Rafeek Procedural Officer Intern Parliamentary Legal Officer Researcher Researcher Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel (CPC) Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Ms. Yolande T Wilkinson Mr. Jovan Hunte Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag) Policy Research Officer Page 1 of 6 Ms. Janelle Smith Ms. Julie Gonzales Legal Intern Mrs. Nisha Sookram-Loutan Legal Intern Legal Officer I Law Reform Commission (LRC) Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer The Meeting was held virtually via Zoom COMMENCEMENT 1.1 The Chairman called the meeting to order at 1:40 p.m. and welcomed all those present.
CONFIRMATION OF THE MINUTES The Committee considered the Minutes of the Twenty-First Meeting held on June 1, 2.1 2021.

The Minutes were confirmed on a motion moved by Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe and seconded 2.2 by Mr. Nigel De Freitas.

MATTERS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES Paragraph 3.2 The Chairman indicated that the Minutes of the 20th Meeting were amended and re- 3.1 uploaded to Rotunda.
The Chairman advised that the following Tobago political leaders and THA 3.2 Assemblymen would be in attendance:  Mr. Hochoy Charles;  Assemblyman Tracey Davidson-Celestine;  Assemblyman Ancil Dennis;  Assemblyman Farley Chavez Augustine;  Assemblyman Dr.

Faith B.Yisrael;  Assemblyman Zorisha Hackett;  Assemblyman Pastor Terence Baynes;  Assemblyman Ian Pollard; and  Mr. Nickocy Phillips.
Page 2 of 6 CONSIDERATION OF THE REPORT The Committee considered the updated draft report and the following decisions were 4.1 made:  Paragraph 8, Public Consultations- The Committee agreed to include further information on the public outreach initiatives undertaken by the Committee to publicise the consultations.
 Paragraph 18, Historical Background - The Committee agreed to enumerate some of the notable contributions of citizens of Trinidad and Tobago to the fields of sport, academia, international relations, finance, law, entertainment and culture.
 Paragraph 22, Introduction- The Committee agreed to include that discussions began commenced as early as August 7, 2009 and that the Tobago Forum of Political Parties was started in 2013;  Paragraph 70, Intergovernmental fiscal relations- The Committee agreed to correct the last sentence which contained a typographical error.
4.2 In regard to paragraph 41, the Chairman advised Members that she had spent some time reviewing the issue of the administrative jurisdictional limit of Tobago which remained unsettled.

She advised that she had reached out to Queens Counsel (Mr. Bart) for guidance.
She explained that he had advised that, given that Trinidad and Tobago is an archipelagic State, the TIG’s administration of a defined maritime zone would be in accordance with the applicable laws of Trinidad and Tobago governing the defined zone.
In giving the TIG exclusive administrative jurisdiction, it places the TIG, in the position of, or akin to that of a custodian/trustee of those maritime spaces, for the benefit of the people of Trinidad and Tobago but possible for the primary benefit of the people of Tobago.

The Chairman advised that it was the Queens Counsel’s advice to her that Tobago’s jurisdiction in this regard cannot be construed as a right that can jeopardize the archipelagic character of the State.
Therefore, in his view, the legal rights and obligations of both the TIG and the Government of Trinidad and Tobago are likely to be the same whether the defined exclusive administrative jurisdiction extends to six miles or eleven miles.

There was a discussion during which Mr. Al Rawi confirmed his agreement with the 4.3 advice of the Queens Counsel.
4.4 During the discussion, the Chairman reconfirmed that the advice of all experts, including the legal opinions received from Mr. Bart, QC, will be uploaded on Rotunda as well as included in the Committee’s report.

4.5 The Chairman recommended and a majority of Members agreed that the exclusive administrative jurisdiction of Tobago should extend 11 nautical miles from the low watermark of Tobago.
The CPC was instructed to make the necessary adjustment to the relevant provision in the proposed Tobago Island Government Bill.

Page 3 of 6 The Committee paused its review of the draft report at paragraph 70 in order to 4.2 commence its presentation to invited stakeholders.
PRESENTATION OF DRAFT BILLS TO STAKEHOLDERS 5.1 The Chair welcomed the following stakeholders to the meeting:  Assemblyman Ancil Dennis- Chief Secretary, Secretary of Food Production, Forestry and Fisheries and Secretary of Tourism, Culture and Transportation  Assemblyman Tracey Davidson-Celestine- Secretary of Health, Wellness & Family Development and Secretary of Sport & Youth Affairs  Assemblyman Joel Jack- Deputy Chief Secretary and Secretary of Finance & the Economy  Assemblyman Marslyn Melville-Jack- Secretary of Community Development, Enterprise Development & Labour and Secretary of Education, Innovation & Energy  Councillor Kwesi Des Vignes- Secretary of Infrastructure, Quarries, and the Environment  Assemblyman Kelvon Morris  Assemblyman Farley Chavez Augustine;  Assemblyman Dr.
Faith B.Yisrael;  Assemblyman Zorisha Hackette;  Assemblyman Pastor Terrance Baynes;  Assemblyman Ian Pollard;  Mr. Hochoy Charles- Political leader of the Tobago Platform of Truth; and  Ms. Nickocy Phillips- Political Leader of the Unity of the People.

5.2 In a Clause by Clause detail, Mr. Faris Al-Rawi presented the revised Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 to the stakeholders and Mr. Nigel De Freitas presented the proposed Tobago Island Government Bill.
The presentations paid particular focus on the changes made to the draft Bills further to the consultations held and written comments received by the Committee.

Stakeholders were invited to ask questions and provide feedback on what was 5.3 explained.

Key points made by stakeholders regarding the amended draft Bills were: i. ii.

iii.
iii.

That the Bills granted exclusive administrative jurisdiction as opposed to law- making jurisdiction; The recognition that the Committee undoubtedly took into account the feedback received from Tobago via the public consultations and made certain significant changes; and That stakeholders needed to study the changes in greater detail and hold discussions with their constituents in Tobago.

5.4 Discussions ensued.

The particulars of decisions made are reflected in the Appendix.
Page 4 of 6 During the discussions, a concern was raised that the leaders of political parties in 5.5 Tobago received the updated Bills too late to meaningfully contribute to the discussions.

The Chairman explained that the purpose of the meeting was primarily to highlight to the leaders the changes made to the drafts to give effect to pertinent representations received.
She added that the Committee had a duty at this stage to report to the Parliament and it was the general view that updating the leaders was an important and necessary step before the process advances to the next stage in the legislative process.

She stressed that it was appreciated that interested persons and stakeholders would need to reflect on the proposals.
She reiterated that, given that the Bill is only at First Reading stage, there was ample opportunity during the legislative steps to follow for the receipt of amendments to the proposals.

On behalf of the Committee, she invited the leaders to communicate their proposals for amendments, if any, to the Secretariat at the earliest opportunity.

5.6 Confirmation was sought on the date the Committee’s report was due.
The Chairman advised that the Committee’s deadline to report had indeed passed and the Committee was obligated to report at the very next opportunity.

The Chairman thanked all the stakeholders for attending the meeting.

The discussions 5.7 with the stakeholders ended at 6:55 p.m. ADJOURNMENT 6.1 The Chairman recommended that Members complete the review of the report on their own and submit their proposals for changes to the Secretariat or the Chair by Monday June 7, 2021 at 12 noon.

Members agreed.
Members agreed.

The Chairman thanked Members for attending and for their support.

She also 6.2 thanked the supporting staff.

The Chairman confirmed that the Committee will be submitting its final report at the 6.2 next Sitting, scheduled for June 9, 2021.

6.3 The adjournment was taken at 7:04 p.m.

I certify that the Minutes are true and correct.


08 June, 2021 Chairman Secretary Page 5 of 6 The Draft Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Clause Concern Decision APPENDIX 18 — 141F - there seems to be an anomaly between 1 (a) and 1(b), which speaks to the appointment of the Chief Secretary by the President.
Section 1(b) speaks of “that party.” — 141F (2)- Chief Secretary to appoint deputy chief secretary should be changed to the President to appoint on the advice of the Chief Secretary — The Committee agreed with resolve to observation.

CPC anomaly.

this this — The Committee agreed.

CPC to adjust.

— 141L(2)- this clause is unclear on when the — The Committee agreed.

CPC to adjust.

Deputy Chief Secretary should vacate office.


Clause 58 Draft Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021 Concern Decision — The THA had responsibility for providing pensions to its members.

Stakeholders were concerned that bringing assembly members under the remit of the Retiring Allowances (Legislative Service) Act Chapter 2:03 would negatively affect assembly members.

— Committee agreed to delete.
Page 6 of 6 APPENDIX XII LIST OF STAKEHOLDERS AND PUBLIC WHO SUBMITTED COMMENTS ON THE BILLS AND PROPOSALS Parliament Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Parliamentary Complex Cabildo Building St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain JSC – Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 Comprehensive List of Persons and Entities who made Submissions on the Draft Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill in the 11th and 12th Parliament APPENDIX XII Written Submissions: 1.
The Tobago House of Assembly 2.

The Tobago Forum of Political Parties 3.

One Tobago Voice 4.

The Progressive Democratic Patriots 5.

Tobago Council of the People’s National Movement 6.

The National Joint Action Committee (NJAC) 7.

Unity of the People 8.

The Association of Real Estate Agents 9.

The Bankers Association of Trinidad and Tobago 10.

The Ministry of Finance-Inland Revenue Division 11.

The Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago 12.

The Elections & Boundaries Commission 13.


The Ministry of Finance-Office of the Permanent Secretary 14.

The Movement for Transformation 15.

Personnel Department 16.

The Ministry of Public Administration and Communications-Legal Services Division 17.

The Environmental Management Authority 18.

The Ministry of Planning and Development 19.

The Port Authority of Trinidad and Tobago 20.

The Public Service Association 21.


Sir Arthur Lewis Institute of Social and Economic Studies (SALISES), The University of the West Indies(UWI) 22.

The Service Commissions Department – Public Service Commission 23.

Mr. Reginald Dumas 24.

Mr. Stephen Kangal 25.

Mr. Bindley Benjamin 26.

Ms.

Dawn Glaisher 27.

Ms. Rachael Almondoz 28.

Mr. Vanus James Page 1 of 4 29.

Mr. Mervyn O’Neil 30.

Mr. Reginald O. Phillips 31.

Mr. Rodney Piggott 32.

Mr. Clyde Weatherhead 33.

Mr. Sean Nedd 34.


Mr. Rampersad Sieuraj 35.

Dr. Petra Bridgemohan 36.

Ms. Carlene Philip 37.

The Office of the Attorney General 38.

The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) 39.

Chief Personnel Officer 40.

Dr. Jefferson Davidson 41.

Mr. George Bobb 42.

Jayan Blonde Wharwood Guy 43.

Mr. Leroy George 44.

Mr. Adam Milne 45.

Ms. Marcellin Nedd 46.

Emanuel Quashie 47.

Mr. Devon Butcher Alleyne 48.

Dave 49.

Sonny Craig 50.

Mr. Kenneth Lewis 51.


Ms. Juliet Plaza 52.

Ishla Bedlow 53.

Mr. Ajay Alleyne 54.

Mrs. Margaret Parks 55.

Mr. Claudius Stewart 56.

Tobago Civil Society Network 57.

Mr. George Leacock 58.

Keilon Shcael Baptiste 59.

Andre Phillips and Associates 60.

Justice Anthony Lucky 61.

The Tobago Law Association of Trinidad and Tobago 62.

Law Association of Trinidad and Tobago (LATT) 63.

Ms. Lynette Stephenson, SC 64.

Mr. James A Trim 65.

Mrs. Tricia McNeil Beckles 66.


Mr. Ancil Dennis 67.

Mr. Aljoscha Wothke Page 2 of 4 68.

Mrs. Bernadette Solomon-Koroma 69.

J Louis 70.

Mr. Leroy George 71.

Trinidad and Tobago Taxpayer 72.

Mr. Bill Francis 73. cinkett@yahoo.com 74.

K_tec@live.com Oral Submissions: 1.

Mr. Jason Gluck, Policy Specialist - UNDP 2.

Professor Nico Steytler - UNDP 3.

Ms. Christina Murray - United Nations Department of Political Affairs 4.

The Service Commissions Department 5.

The Ministry of Finance 6.


The Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago 7.

Mr. Hochoy Charles - Tobago Forum of Political Parties 8.

Mrs. Juliana Henry King - Tobago Forum of Political Parties 9.

Mr. Samuel Mapp - Tobago Forum of Political Parties 10.

Mrs. Tracy Davidson-Celestine - People’s National Movement Tobago Council 11.

Mr. Kwesi Des Vignes - People’s National Movement Tobago Council 12.

Mr. Ancil Dennis - People’s National Movement Tobago Council 13.
Ms. Ingrid Melville - People’s National Movement Tobago Council 14.

Mr. Orville London - People’s National Movement Tobago Council 15.

Mr. Kelvin Charles - People’s National Movement Tobago Council 16.

Ms. Yolande George-Beckles - People’s National Movement Tobago Council 17.

Mr. Wendell Berkely - People’s National Movement Tobago Council 18.

Mr. Stanford Callender - People’s National Movement Tobago Council 19.

Mr. Farley Augustine - Progressive Democratic Patriots 20.
Dr. Denise Tsoiafatt Angus - Progressive Democratic Patriots 21.

Dr.

Faith B.Yisrael - Progressive Democratic Patriots 22.

Ms. Zorisha Hackett - Progressive Democratic Patriots 23.

Mr. Ian Pollard - Progressive Democratic Patriots 24.

Ms. Janae Campbell – Tobago Youth Council 25.

Ms. Cynthia Alfred 26.

Dr. James Armstrong 27.

Ms. Isha Bedlow 28.

Ms. Shirley Cooke 29.

Mr. Anthony Hector 30.

Mr. Max James 31.

Ms. Juliet James Page 3 of 4 32.

Mrs. Margaret Parks 33.

Mr. Kavern Phillips 34.


Mr. Jeron Smith 35.

Mr. James Trim 36.

Mr. Reginald Vidale 37.
Mr. Nickocy Phillips Page 4 of 4 APPENDIX XIII MATRIX OF STAKEHOLDER AND PUBLIC COMMENTS Parliament Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Parliamentary Complex Cabildo Building St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain JSC – Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill 2020 Appendix XIII Stakeholder and Public Comments The comments received by the Committee can be accessed via the following link: http://parlcloud.ttparliament.org:8081/paperslaidviewer APPENDIX XIV VERBATIM NOTES OF PUBLIC CONSULTATIONS VERBATIM NOTES OF THE PUBLIC CONSULTATION OF THE JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION (AMDT.)
(TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL 2020 (IN PUBLIC) HELD AT THE VICTOR E. BRUCE FINANCIAL COMPLEX SCARBOROUGH TOBAGO, ON FRIDAY, APRIL 30, 2021, AT 10.30 A.M.
APPENDIX 14 Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis Chairman PRESENT Dr. Varma Deyalsingh Mr. Nigel de Freitas Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Ms. Jearlean John Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Mr. Clarence Rambharat Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh Mr. Dinesh Rambally Mr. Faris Al-Rawi Mrs. Ayanna Webster-Roy Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Secretary Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary FORUM OF POLITICAL PARTIES Mr. Hochoy Charles Mrs. Juliana Henry-King Mr. Samuel Mapp Member Member Member Madam Chairman: Good morning ladies and gentlemen.
Good morning to the Joint Select Committee on the amendments to the Tobago legislation.

Good morning to all our viewers and listeners who are viewing these proceedings on the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2 2021.04.30 Parliament channel and other platforms.

I want to welcome you to the Joint Select Committee on the Tobago amendment Act to deal with the self-government for Tobago.
Thank you very much for taking this time to be with us and thank you very much for the interest that you are showing in this particular piece of legislation.

Today we have with us several persons who I will ask to introduce themselves, but before I do that I would like to ask members of the Committee to introduce themselves and then we will ask those stakeholders who are with us to introduce themselves.

Again, thank you very much for being here.


So I will start with the members in Trinidad and then move on to the members in Tobago, and then move to those stakeholders who are here with us.

Thank you.

[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: Thank you very kindly, members.

I will now ask those who have joined us to introduce themselves please.

[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: We are just checking to see if there are any other of the stakeholders who are on already.
Mrs. Webster-Roy, are you here with us?

[Introduction made] Madam Chairman: Is there anyone else there with you?

Mrs. Webster-Roy: I am not seeing anybody else joining us yet.

Madam Chairman: All right, but we will start and thank you very much again for joining us, and I will start—I understand that Sen. Varma Deyalsingh is also here.

[Introduction made] Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.
As you know, members, and listeners and viewers, this is being done virtually so we will have a few hiccups but we are hoping that we will have a smooth flow today.

So thank you again for joining us.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 3 2021.04.30 I would like to open this morning’s meeting by giving you some brief opening remarks on my behalf as the Chairman of this Committee.
As you know we have had this assignment and we have tried to make sure that we have followed what we have been asked to do.

The Joint Select Committee of the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago on the Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020, is very pleased to resume these consultations particularly with the people of Tobago.

This is a very important legislative proposal and we are happy to welcome all those who will be joining us at today’s consultation.
As you know, these consultations actually began many years ago.

Many of you in Tobago will recall the island-wide consultations that took place over the period 2014 to 2016, and this culminated with a debate in the Tobago House of Assembly.

The output of those discussions and debates was a draft Bill to amend the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago to accord self-government to Tobago.

This was the genesis of the Bill that was laid in the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago in 2018.
This Bill was sent to a Joint Select Committee in March of 2018.

Over the period 2018 to 2019 that Committee called for comments and submissions and held a series of public hearings with stakeholders and experts from Tobago and Trinidad, as well as legal and other experts with knowledge and experience in relevant constitutional matters from a number of other jurisdictions.

The life of that Committee ended in 2020.


Upon the resumption of the new Parliament, the Bill was referred to a new committee in November of 2020, and this is the Committee that is before you.

With the aid of the body of research inherited from the last Committee, the new Joint Select Committee set about its work.

This Committee has since circulated our preliminary findings and proposals.

Today we begin receiving your UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 4 2021.04.30 comments.

We begin in Tobago since this matter is exceedingly important particularly to our Tobago brothers and sisters, and particularly because the original piece of legislation came from Tobago.

Since the circulation of the draft proposals we have been encouraged by the fact that there have been robust conversations on the Bill all over Tobago.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is democracy at work.


We of the Joint Select Committee join those conversations today.

This Committee is interested in all comments.

This is the process of lawmaking.

We assure you that mindful of our mandate, we will take all comments on board.

Against that background allow me a few minutes to brief you, the people of Tobago, and the people of Trinidad, on the Committee’s draft proposals.

The proposed revised Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020, will alter the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago to enshrine into our Constitution certain rights exclusively to the island of Tobago.

Tobago will become an autonomous region, free to pursue its economic, social, and cultural development, and physical development, to the extent possible and within the framework of the Constitution of the sovereign unitary State of Trinidad and Tobago.
The Constitution will now establish the Tobago Island Government, staff who work for this government will fall under the umbrella of the Tobago Division of the Public or Teaching Service Commission as proposed by the Committee.

Also, the Constitution will establish a completely new Tobago legislature with the ability to pass laws for Tobago that will come into effect on assent by the President, similar to the process followed for the enactment of laws by the national Parliament.
The Committee is also proposing a companion Bill to repeal and replace the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 5 2021.04.30 Tobago House of Assembly Act.

This Bill will provide the powers and functions of the Tobago Island Government and set out workable financial and other arrangements for matters regarding the operations of the Tobago Island Government and the legislature.
But this is not all, the draft proposes that the reformed Tobago legislature should be a unicameral legislature comprising of a reformed House of Assembly and the President of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

Unicameral legislatures are not uncommon.


In fact, in the Caribbean there are several examples of legislatures that are unicameral, including but not limited to, Dominica, Aruba, Nevis Island, Guyana, the British Virgin Islands, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, the Cayman Islands, and the US Virgin Islands, to name just some of them.

The Committee carefully studied the advantages of these models and found some to be quite useful to its work.
The proposed new Tobago House of Assembly will comprise: 15 elected Assemblymen; five Councillors appointed by the President on the advice of the Premier; three Councillors appointed by the President on the advice of the Minority Leader; two Councillors appointed by the President in his or her own discretion from amongst outstanding persons resident in Tobago, from economic, social, or community organizations or other fields, and a Presiding Officer who may or may not be an Assemblyman or a member of the Tobago Executive Council.
There is now a provision for the appointment of councillors to temporarily fill vacancies due to illness or absence from the country of appointed members.

The Constitution will be amended to empower the members of the new Tobago House of Assembly to make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago, and such laws will be called Tobago Acts.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 6 2021.04.30 Laws that can affect fundamental rights and freedoms of the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago will remain under the jurisdictions of the national Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago.

Additionally, broad policy issues for which there is the need for the harmonizing of laws will also be the responsibility of the national Parliament.

This is to ensure that there is no conflict of laws.
The Fourth Schedule of the Constitution will list the areas for which the Tobago legislature will have exclusive lawmaking powers.

The question may be asked, why is there a need for such a Schedule?

This arrangement is necessary as it promotes legal certainty and this is required by both the national Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago legislature when making laws.
Whilst some aspects of the functions of the Tobago legislature will be in the Constitution, a companion Bill provides for operational matters and proposes several oversight Committees to be established within the legislature to oversee the work of the Tobago Government.

Therefore, the new Tobago legislature like other parliamentary bodies will be lawfully required to fulfill the following roles: One, lawmaking; two, scrutiny of the Government; three, representation of the people of Tobago.
As a legislature with the power to make laws to affect the lives of its people, the Tobago legislature will finally be able to take a seat at international Assemblies where legislators meet regularly to discuss matters related to their role and functions.

So, the Tobago legislature will be able to speak for the people of Tobago and leave its mark on the international stage.
I refer now to clause 11 of the Bill, because clause 11 amends the Constitution to accord the new Tobago Island Government exclusive executive powers to manage all areas listed in a Fifth Schedule of the Constitution.

The Tobago Government will be managed by an Executive Council comprising: a UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 7 2021.04.30 premier, a deputy premier, a secretary for legal affairs, and such other secretaries as may be necessary to govern the affairs of Tobago.

This new arrangement we propose will deepen Tobago’s autonomy.

Civil matters including and involving the Tobago House of Assembly and the Tobago Government will now be handled by the Division of the secretary for legal affairs.
As is the case today, the Tobago Government can be empowered to act on behalf of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago in respect of any of its residual responsibilities in Tobago by way of a memorandum of understanding arrangement.

The premier for Tobago now has to be consulted before appointments can be made to certain posts like the Chief Administrator, Administrators, heads of departments in a division and the Chief Professional Advisor.
The proposed amendment to the Constitution will require the President to act in accordance with the advice of the Tobago Executive Council or a Secretary acting under the general authority of the Tobago Executive Council, with respect to matters in the exclusive jurisdiction of the Tobago Government.

This patterns the law related to matters in the exclusive jurisdiction of the central government of Trinidad and Tobago.
Should there be a conflict of any kind between the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago Island Government, the Bill proposes that the parties be legally required to make meaningful efforts to settle these matters before any attempt is made to approach the courts.

Ladies and gentlemen, the draft companion Bill entitled the Tobago Island Government Bill proposes financial arrangements for the management of Tobago’s funds.
The Bill proposes that Tobago be appropriated 6.8 per cent of the annual appropriation as a minimum.

However, the law further provides for increases over and above this sum on the recommendation of a Fiscal Review Commission.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 8 2021.04.30 The Tobago Government will be empowered to retain all revenues collected on the island.
The draft Bill provides that a Tobago fund be established to consist of moneys appropriated by the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago for the use of the Tobago government and such other moneys that the Tobago government may lawfully collect, borrow, or earn, through investments or may be granted.

There will also be a contingency fund to provide for unexpected expenditure.

The rules for the management of all finances of the Tobago Government are required to be debated and approved by the Tobago legislature.
No longer will there be the need to send Estimates to Trinidad for approval.

The Tobago legislature must now also debate and approve its own Tobago Appropriation Act which together with detailed Estimates must be laid in the House of Assembly.

The members of the Assembly will be required to examine these Estimates and seek information from the Executive Council on proposals for expenditure of Tobago’s funds.
All of this will now be part of the new Tobago budget process and is in keeping with the arrangements in legislative bodies worldwide.

Quite significantly, this Bill provides for the establishment in law of the following Committees, and these will be committees of the Tobago legislature: A Public Accounts Committee, a Public Administration and Appropriations Committee, and a number of other oversight committees to scrutinize the operations of the Tobago Government.
What this means is that the expenditure of Tobago’s funds will be exclusively decided in Tobago, by Tobagonians, with oversight by the Tobago legislature both during and after the budgetary process.

As I said when I opened, this is a very important moment for Tobago and for Trinidad and Tobago.

This is a momentous period for the people of Trinidad and Tobago.

We do feel a degree of disappointment that the prevailing circumstances, UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 9 2021.04.30 the so called “new normal” does not allow us to commence these consultations with face to face meetings.

But we are of the firm view that we are resolved to hear from you, and so we begin today in this virtual space.

Thank you very kindly and so we begin.

So ladies and gentlemen, I begin now to hear from those who are with us.

I know that Mr. Hochoy Charles is here and I will ask him now to make a brief opening statement and let the discussions begin.
Thank you very much.

Mr. Charles: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Are you hearing me?

Madam Chairman: Yes, we are.

Mr. Charles: Thank you.

You have in your closing, somewhere in your closing remarks you did say you are disappointed but I am disappointed for another reason, not the one you gave, because of the lack of our ability to meet face to face.

I am disappointed when I looked at the result of six years I believe—of I may call it work or matter in your presence.

Be let me just put this thing in context.


And we speak so much about democracy and I want to remind all of us what democracy means.

Democracy is a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people collectively and is administered by them or by officers appointed by them.

So the supreme authority is vested in the people, the people collectively totalled.

And what we are discussing today is the matter of internal self-government for the people of Tobago.
And I want to just very quickly, I have been involved in this matter for a long time, and in fact from its inception before 1976 after the elections of 1976, including all the drafts, all the documents, all the legislation that came out of Parliament that in fact had not provided Tobago with the decision that had been made in 1977.
The decision made by the Parliament in 1977 on this issue after the Motion, that historic Motion by Mr. Robinson, was that Tobago should be UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 10 2021.04.30 accorded self-government in the year 1977.

We are now in 2021 and we are still discussing that particular matter.
You made reference—I am going to try to be brief because you asked me to be brief, to make my comments brief but I do not understand how we can come to be discussing a matter of this kind and our comments—of course we need to be restrained and constrained—a matter like this having regard to the journey that we have made on this issue, to be brief in these comments after you as the Chairman would have spoken so extensively at the beginning, and you have that right, you have my permission and my agreement to do so, but I should not be circumscribed in this way.
Let me just say this quickly.

Why in my own view and I will give you why and the authority that was given to the organization that we call the Political Forum.

The authority given to us in order to prepare the document which you call the draft Bill that was sent down to you in 2016.

I am going to just read the Motion so that the Parliament understands the context of what we are discussing.

Remember everything we say and we are saying today, remember what we are discussing.
We are discussing internal self-government for Tobago.

Which is in fact a principle, and in fact it is a covenant of the United Nations that says that: “All peoples have a right to”—their—“self-determination.” And it went on to say that would also mean that we will freely determine our political status and then we will be able to pursue our economic, social, and cultural development.

That is international law.


They have made it international law, the United Nations, because their view was in 1952 and it still is, that the General Assembly of the United Nations recognized in 1952 that the violation of that right of people and nations of self- determination, had resulted in war in the past, and was considered a continuous threat to peace, and that is why they had UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 11 2021.04.30 decided to make sure that this issue of self-determination is put in international law.

What I have seen come out of this document before I read the Motion is that the document that has been prepared and sent back, both Bills, the amendments to the Constitution and the Tobago Island Government Bill, both of them are in violation of that.

A real violation.
A real violation.

And I would say this, that the people of Tobago met and you referred to it, and that is quite true, the extensive consultation which took place between 2013 to 2016 and I can testify to it because I have been with Mr. Robinson and the others.

In fact, I am one of the architects of the Internal Self-Government Motion that was moved in Parliament in 1977.

So I have been journeying.

I am a history maker where that is concerned.

I have been journeying down.


So if I tell you now that the consultation that we had in Tobago on that issue between 2013 and 2016, was the most extensive, I know what I am saying, that is not theory, it is not an opinion.

And that consultation resulted in a Motion at our final meeting at Signal Hill which authorized what we have said to you.

And let me say that and then I will quickly tell you what I think about the provisions that you have made, very quickly, not going to all of them.
Let me read the Motion.

That is what informed and instructed us and this Committee needs to know that.

The Parliament and the world need to know that the people of Tobago, I mean unanimously we can say, agree on what we have sent to you and you have violated that.

You have gone contrary to that.

So let me read the Motion.

I need to read it into your records.

Every single Member of Parliament, the United Nations needs to hear too.

Every one of you needs to hear this.


After the wide consultation of which the Chairman also referred to and she was accurate and quite true, because I am sure she was properly informed of that, that is quite true.

There is a Motion in Signal Hill moved by the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 12 2021.04.30 lady who is at my side, Juliana Henry-King moved this Motion at Signal Hill, all of us were there.
Tobago came there to that meeting and let me read the Motion very quickly for you.

Let me take my time with it: The issue of democratic self-government for Tobago has engaged the people of the two islands Trinidad and Tobago since the union of 1889.

And whereas the need to establish an appropriate Tobago self-government has been recognized by all participants in the national arena since 1977 but remains an outstanding goal of the Tobago people.
And whereas in consideration of the issue of Tobago self-government useful points of departure or reference for the establishment of Tobago’s right to self-government can be found in the provisions of the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago, in the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago, the decisions of the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago, the assertions of universal and international entities and the conventions of natural justice.
And whereas specific citations that support Tobago’s right to self-determination can be found in international law and conventions particularly the United Nations Charter, the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights 1948, the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples 1960, which states,‘…all people have the right to self-determination…’—by virtue of that right they— ‘…freely…determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social, and cultural development;’ And finally, four, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights of 1966.
And whereas every other system of governance other than democratic self- governance has been tried in Tobago and has failed.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 13 2021.04.30 And whereas the Chief Secretary and the leaders of the three political parties contesting the Tobago House of Assembly elections 2013, namely, the People’s National Movement (PNM), The Organization of the People (TOP), and The Platform of Truth, (TPT), conscious that a most fundamental right of human beings in society is the right to self-determination, convinced that the time had come to attain democratic self-government for Tobago, recognizing the need for the people of Tobago to speak with one voice on the issue have submerged their individual political agenda, and agreed to constitute the Forum of Tobago Political Parties, for the principal purpose of working together to attain democratic self-government for Tobago.
The single most important goal of the Tobago people.

And whereas the Forum, conscious that the populations of the islands, the communities, families, and individual citizens that constitute the union have never previously been fully informed consulted or engaged on the issue over these years and that the conversations, debates, agreements, and edits sought, reached, and proclaimed, have been a matter for Governments and the colonial offices in London and in Port of Spain.
And whereas the process consisting of a series of consultations entitled ‘Towards Tobago Autonomy’ has engaged the population of Tobago living in Tobago, Trinidad, the Caribbean, and the wider diaspora, has examined the proper way forward for Tobago and sought consensus on: 1.

2.

3.
2.

3.

4. issues fundamental to Tobago self-government; issues fundamental to Tobago in its relationship with Trinidad; a set of core principles that transcend political differences; and a process for inter-party consultation on fundamental issues relating to UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 14 2021.04.30 Tobago.

And the resolution, point to hear it well.

The wall must hear it.


Be it resolved that this convention of the people of Tobago meeting here at Signal Hill Secondary School today September 14, 2014: A.

Agrees and asserts that the issues fundamental to democratic self- government for Tobago include inter alia: 1.

2.

Responsibility of the Tobago administration to formulate and implement policy on all matters affecting the lives of the people resident in Tobago.
Equality of status between the islands and in constitutional legislative and administrative framework reflecting such equality.

And I want you to hear this well— 3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

A federal-type system of government—a federal-type system of government.

Delineation of the boundaries of each island.

Jurisdiction and control over economic resources in Tobago’s defined geographic space.

Freedom for Tobago administration to make laws to govern Tobago.
Ability to borrow and to fund Tobago’s development Let me read that again— 7.

8.

Ability to borrow to fund Tobago’s development.

Authority and responsibility in the Tobago administration to formulate and implement fiscal policy including taxation measures.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 15 2021.04.30 9.

10.

Removal of Cabinet dominance and override of decisions made in Tobago by the Tobago administration.
Legal framework providing for the wider participation of the Tobago society in the decision-making process of the Tobago administration.

11.

Management and control of the inter-island transportation system to reside in Tobago; And— And— B.
The convention hereby authorize, instruct—and they deliberately use these words, you know—hereby authorize, instruct, and mandate the forum of political leaders to take all proper and necessary steps to achieve and secure democratic self-government for Tobago in the shortest possible time.

C. Requires that the forum ensures that the self-government secured for Tobago includes the appropriate provisions to treat with the issues agreed and asserted at A.1-11 above.
Now— Madam Chairman: Just a minute, Mr. Charles.

Thank you very much for that introduction and I know that you will go on to your detailed discussion of the Bill that is before us.

Let me just intervene here by saying, first of all, that that was not the context of the Bill that came before the Committee that was set up to deal with this issue.
You would recall that a Bill came before the Committee from Tobago, and some of those thing that you have stated that were in the resolution, some of those things were not in the Bill that we had to deal with.

So let me just put that on the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 16 table from the outset.
2021.04.30 Secondly, with regard to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights that is stated by the UN, let me indicate that the interpretive guidelines of the UN specified specifically that these applied to federations where there was already a certain separation and they did not apply to governance systems where the intention was to create or to maintain a unitary state where there would continue to be that unitary status, and we did not have any instructions to create a federation.
So let me just put those things on the table.

So could you tell us now what in the Bill that is before us, what the concerns are that you have?

Thank you.

Mr. Charles: [Technical difficulties]—resolutions and I do not want to do that now.

I would have been able to tell you that the document that you had that was submitted to you which section deals with these matters.
I can also say that there may be one or two of those issues in the drafting that may not have been in accordance with what the people would have said.

But almost all of them in the Bill that was sent down.

Secondly, I understand that the right to self-determination does not necessarily mean independence.

It means the right, it means the freedom to exercise option, and one of the options that Tobago exercises in this case is that we want to remain a sovereign democratic state.
I am hearing it coming out of Parliament several times about “unitary state”.

We avoided using that word in Tobago from ever since, and there is a reason for it.

Because Trinidad and Tobago can be considered as you say, a unitary state.

Our Constitution does not say so.

Let me say that United Kingdom is also considered a unitary state and there are some dependencies like Guernsey, Jersey, the Isle of Man.

They are almost independent although they have one sovereign democratic system.
And may I say UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 17 2021.04.30 finally, Madam Chairman, that Germany was also a unitary state under Hitler, one- man rule.

So we avoid— Madam Chairman: Okay, so thanks very much for that, but could you—if we go to the Bill, you can probably let us know what are the concerns you have with the various clauses.

I would appreciate that.


Mr. Charles: The Bill as it stands, every section, even the Preamble violates every single one of these things that I just mentioned, beginning from— Madam Chairman: Tell me, yeah, go ahead and tell the Committee.

Mr. Charles: You are hearing?

Madam Chairman: Please go ahead.

Mr. Charles: Let me just look at it.


The draft Bill confirms the recognition of the equality of status between the island of Tobago and the island of Trinidad within the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago.

There is—[Technical difficulties] Madam Chairman: Could you, Mr.—Oh, dear.

Mr. Charles, we are not hearing you.

Are you hearing me?

Mr. Charles: I am hearing you very, very clearly.

Madam Chairman: Okay.


Now, what would help us—because remember what we are doing is a consultation, and we are trying to make sure that we understand everything that you are saying and what would help us.

If you are saying that this is not what is wanted, can you say what you would want instead?

Tell me how you would want it made different.

Mr. Charles: No, I am saying that the statement that is made is what we submitted to you.
We submit this thing to you that there must be equality of status between the two islands.

The statement I am making is that the document that you submit, the Bill, there is no provision in that Bill that will give effect to that statement that you made there.

We submit that we should be equal in status, but the Bill you UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 18 2021.04.30 produce does not make any provision for that to happen, just a statement you made.
And that is the point I am making with respect to that item.

And we can go down.

You said that the Preamble to the Constitution, the second paragraph, the Preamble to the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago will be amended to acknowledge: “…the right of the people of Tobago to determine in Tobago their political… economic, social and cultural development;” Every single provision, I mean, every one, I am not exaggerating.

Every single provision of the Bill is in violation of that.
That we are under control of Trinidad in every way possible.

The Cabinet can override everything we do.

Madam Chairman: All right.

So you are saying there that clause 4, clause 4, you are saying does not reflect what was in the Bill that came from Tobago?

Because what would help us is if you went through it—if you wish, go through it clause by clause and give us your suggestions please.

So clause 4— Mr. Charles: What we expect you to do— Madam Chairman: Uh huh.
Mr. Charles: What we expect the Committee to do, and I think that is the point I have been making, and trying to make all the time.

That is why I started off with democracy, that it is the people of Tobago that must determine how Tobago is governed, and that is the third item I read in the Motion.
When the Motion says, let me go back to it and tell you why the draft— Madam Chairman: Mr. Charles, Mr. Charles, you see, what we are trying to do is to make sure that what we are discussing is the Bill that is before us.

So, it would help us if you said, clause 4, you wanted this amendment to be made, clause 5, we would prefer if it is stated this way.
That is what would help the Committee to be able to understand so that we know if such a change can be made, how it will make UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 19 2021.04.30 the Bill in its entirety a little different.

So if you could assist us in that way, that would help the Committee.
Because we have heard what you told us and we understand your general thinking, but if you were to go through the clauses and give us some idea of what the changes that you would like to see— Mr. Charles: I have looked.

I received these things a day or two ago and I have looked at them, read them, and I am saying to you that we would have submitted that Tobago should have equal status.
It means then, for that to happen and you are well aware of this particular issue, you know, you are well aware of this particular issue.

We have said that Tobago and Trinidad should have equal status, and to do that, for Tobago to walk side by side with Trinidad and to have equal status, it means that the level of the administration in Tobago, the issue of the governance structure for Tobago must be at the level of Trinidad.

What we have in the Bill is one superior and one subordinate.
And that is not what we submitted to you.

And that is what I am saying that has to be amended, it has to be completely changed.
For Tobago to walk side by side with Trinidad or to have equality with Trinidad, it means that the level of the administration in Tobago—this will require a whole drafting, and if you give us a chance in Tobago, we could draft that in two weeks and send back a whole new Bill for you in keeping with what the Motion that was passed, and in keeping with that international law that I spoke about.

We will draft that.
We will draft that.

But what you have been attempting to do, what the Committee has been attempting to do is to determine how Tobago is governed.

And that is what we said that there are two issues and I am going to come to the specifics, there are two issues that are involved here.

One is the fundamental, what the issues that are fundamental to Tobago self-government.

That is— Madam Chairman: We are not hearing him.

Mr. Charles, let me assist.


Okay, clause 4, clause 4 of the Bill, says, this is— UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 20 2021.04.30 Mr. Charles: I am just asking them to get the Bill for me.

I just have it in the old form and I just— Madam Chairman: Right.

So, clause 4 states very clearly that: “The Preamble of the Constitution…”—would be—”…amended by inserting after paragraph (c)…”—a certain paragraph.
And this is what we got from the Bill that came to us from you.

Now, clause 5 similarly indicates that there will be equality of status and it says that very clearly: “There shall be equality of status between the Island of Trinidad and the Island of Tobago within the sovereign democratic State of Trinidad and Tobago...” It says quite clearly about equality of status.

Clause 6 gives a definition of various—defines various words in the Bill and which would be part of the amendment to the Constitution.
Clause 7 defines what is the Tobago legislature as it relates to the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago.

Mr. Charles, you are hearing us?

Mr. Charles: I am hearing you.

But you know, it is when you are through, because I cannot intercede while you are talking.

Madam Chairman: No, I am just saying that if we go through it like this, if there are any issues, you can raise it at the time.
Mr. Charles: And I am saying to you when the Preamble which you say refers to clause 4, says that the Constitution would be amended, what we have before us is the amended Constitution—is the amendment to the Constitution, and I am saying because this says that the Constitution will be amended.

What you have before us today is an amendment to Constitution.

And my statement is— Madam Chairman: And that is the intention.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 21 2021.04.30 Mr. Charles:—no provision there which gives effect to that fact that we should walk side by side.

Madam Chairman: Okay, but we have said that there will be equality of status.

Mr. Charles: You are saying it but there is no provision.

Madam Chairman: In the new clause we have spoken about the equality of status.
And Mr. Charles, let me just say for your benefit and for the benefit of all those who may be listening, that once we are intent on maintaining the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago which where the instructions that we received, there will be certain things that we have to put within the Constitution and other things that are in the companion Bill that give effect to this unitary state, but always according Tobago the right to ensure that what they do relates specifically to internal self-government for Tobago.
And you will recall because you did come to some of the sessions that we had that we met with the United Nations personnel, we met with the former Attorney General of St. Kitts and Nevis who explained all of these things to us.

And our intention throughout as a Committee has always been to ensure that we give Tobago what Tobago wants, within the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago.

And consequently, these are the clauses that we have presented to you today for us to discuss.
There is no intention and there has been no intention to move away from the instructions that we got, once we can ensure that those instructions manifest themselves in such a way as to maintain that you did not ask for independence and you did not ask for a federal system.

Those were not the instructions that came to us.

Mr. Charles: You ready for me, Ma’am?

And we are not discussing independence right now, neither am I proposing federation.
All I am saying is that we are now discussing with you what you said in your statement on this Constitution, that you UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 22 2021.04.30 recognize, you confirm the recognition of the equality of status.

Madam Chairman: Okay, well, what we want from you today, Mr. Charles, as we said, if you could go through the clauses and tell us what amendment you would like to see.
Mr. Charles: Ma’am, the entire Bill must be rejected by the people of Tobago having regard to this conversation we are having.

Because I am trying to explain to you that I am going through the Bill, and now I am referring to the Preamble, and you have now led me properly to the section that would have dealt with the Explanatory Note at one, and I am asking you where could I find in the Bill a provision which recognizes that Tobago status and Trinidad status would be equal?
I have looked at the Bill and I have not found any provision and all I am saying is that we should put that provision in the Bill to allow that to happen.

We make a statement but there is no provision [Technical difficulties] you are asking me to do the drafting.
Madam Chairman: I am not asking you to do the drafting, Mr. Charles, I am telling you that at clause 5 we have said very clearly, “There…”—will—“… be equality of status between the Island of Trinidad and the island of Tobago within the sovereign democratic State of Trinidad and Tobago...” And let me say that that particular wording came directly from the Bill that was sent to us from Tobago.
As we go through the Bill you would be able to see that within that context what the Bill attempts to do is to make sure that Tobago is accorded the ability to ensure that they can make laws for Tobago, there are other things that are different from what you have now that are now in this Bill.

So all I am asking from you is if you point me to a clause or the clauses that you have an issue with, I know you are saying that you have an issue with the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 23 2021.04.30 entire Bill, but if there are some specific things that you want to see amended, if you could point me to or point us to those things, I would be deeply appreciative.

Thank you.

Mr. Charles: The entire Bill because there is no structure in the Bill.

So could I go to it?

There is no provision in the Bill to deliver.

The statement that you say that is in clauses 4 and 5, there is no provision.

It is just a statement made.


What we would have done with the Bill that we submitted to you is that we look at the 11 matters that the Tobago people say are fundamental to Tobago’s right to self- determination and so on, and what must be contained in the legislation.

And we would have put those things in provision in the Bill which we submit.

You now take that and you have it as a statement and there is no provision that will give effect to that statement.
Madam Chairman: Mr. Charles, then, could you point me to where in the Bill that you submitted said certain things and we did not take that into consideration?

Maybe if you did it that way, we might be able to see it.

Tell me where you wanted in the previous Bill, the federal system.

Can you show me that clause in the previous Bill if you have the Bill before you?

Mr. Charles: No, I am not dealing with that and this is why I repeated federal- type, but I am not dealing with that.
I am looking at the provisions of the Bill, the one we submitted and the one you have now for public comment.

I am looking at both things, and I am saying the one we submitted started off first of all, about amending to define boundaries of Tobago.

Mr. de Freitas: Madam Chair, good morning, might I— Madam Chairman: Yes, member de Freitas, you want to make an intervention here?

Mr. de Freitas: Yes, I would like to make an intervention because it seems that we UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 24 2021.04.30 are going around in circles and I am listening to Mr. Charles as well, and we seem to be stuck at this point.

So let me just ask Mr. Charles for clarification.

So, in the clause in the Bill that Madam Chair has indicated where it speaks to equality of status between the island of Trinidad and the island of Tobago, it starts with that.
Now, when we are asking for what provisions in the Bill that you are indicating do not fully allow for that, I am going to ask you, most of the clauses in the Bill treat with the concept of unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago, of which Tobago is represented both at the parliamentary level and well in Cabinet now, and the fact that Tobago is trying to carve out a certain level of autonomy within that unitary State.
If it is Mr. Charles that you are looking at Trinidad and Tobago as is represented in the unitary state at the parliamentary level, Cabinet level, and every other level and taking it to mean that Trinidad and Tobago means “Trinidad” and only Trinidad, well then, you are going to have some confusion when you look at the clause that says there is an equality of status between the islands of Tobago and Trinidad.
The provisions in the Bill treat with Trinidad and Tobago, the unitary State, and everything that comes with that, and trying to carve out for Tobago a certain level of autonomy as was indicated when the original Bill came.
So the question I am going to ask you now, as Madam Chair, I think is asking, is that what clause and what provision in the Bill that speaks to Trinidad and Tobago and the relationship between the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago of which Tobago is actually represented, and the autonomy for Tobago that we are trying to achieve, what provisions in the Bill cause a problem for you?

Mr. Charles: I may even tell you almost every one of them.
And this is why I started to give you— UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 25 2021.04.30 Mr. de Freitas: Hold on.

So let me ask a question, Mr. Charles.

So where you see reference to Trinidad and Tobago as a unitary state in the Bill, do you see that as Trinidad only?

Or do you see it as Tobago also being represented where there is reference to Trinidad and Tobago?

Mr. Charles: Let me take my time, Sir.

Are you prepared to hear me?


Are you prepared to listen to me?

Mr. de Freitas: Yes, I am prepared.

Mr. Charles: I listened to you attentively.

The first thing we did is that you are preparing for a legislature to give Tobago its autonomy, self-government, internal self-government at that, not independence.

And the first thing is that we are going to have our legislature that we are going to be passing laws and we know that law is policy.
And as you know that law is policy and you know what you know, you know that is what it is.

And as you know law is the tool for the implementation of public policy, of government policy.

Now, the first thing we need to do is that, and we did that before, is that we need to know what is this Tobago?

So that when we pass a law, what is the jurisdiction over what area should that law be applied?

Other than that you are going to enter places that you are not responsible for.
And I am saying to you the definition of what is Tobago is not there in the Bill, and then the structure that goes in place with the power to do those things, not in the Bill, because everything is going to be countermanded and overridden by the Parliament, almost every single section we can pick them out and read them for you.

Every section, the Cabinet still would be making policy and all Tobago can do is to pass law.
You can pick up the entire piece of legislation what clause it is, we in Tobago can only pass laws on about four or five issues, about four or five matters.

The rest— Madam Chairman: Mr. Charles, I am going to ask the Attorney General to make UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 26 2021.04.30 an intervention now, member Al-Rawi and then I will ask member Jearlean John to make an intervention.

Go ahead please, member Al-Rawi.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you very much.


Good morning to you, Mr. Charles.

Madam Chair, I would just simply like to say when we make reference first of all to a Bill, we are dealing with two pieces of law in circulation for public consultation.

The first one that we are dealing with is an amendment to the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

That is the supreme law of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, as per section 2 of the Constitution.
When we are discussing Mr. Charles’ concerns, which I thank him for being so careful in expressing, Mr. Charles are you with me?

I am not sure, Madam Chair— Madam Chairman: He is there.

Go ahead, he is hearing you, go ahead.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Okay, thank you.

My screen was not in gear.

Yes, Madam Chair, when we are looking at this the first point made by Mr. Charles is that there is no definition of Tobago.

There is a definition of Tobago.


The second point is that he made the statement that there is the structure that Parliament effectively overrides.

There are according to him five matters that they have autonomy in not being able to be overridden, but that respectfully is not necessarily the case.
The most important point that I would like to make here is that the instruction that came to the Committee is that Trinidad and Tobago is looking for a system of autonomy not a system of federal status, and not a system of secession or independence, and not a system of non-unitary factor.

It is because of the unitary instruction where Trinidad and Tobago remains a Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, that constitutionally, we have difficulties in law in applying the concept of federation into a unitary state.
So I would like to ask Mr. Charles, he made a very important point that I UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 27 2021.04.30 would like him to please take his time to amplify, what are the 11 points that you referred to that you wanted to see in the Bill?

If you could list them for us so that we can have a clear understanding of what your 11 points are please, Sir?

Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Sorry, thank you member Al-Rawi.


Before Mr. Charles goes there, I would like member John to make her intervention.

Ms. John: Thank you, Chairman.

Madam Chairman: Member John, just one minute please.

Mr. Charles, sometimes—I am not sure if you are not muting properly but we keep hearing you when you are not on.

So please make sure that you are properly muted.

So we are still hearing you.

Okay.

Member John.

Ms. John: Thank you, Madam Chairman.


I was really happy to see Mr. Charles, the hon.

Hochoy Charles confirm that the consultations, the prior consultations were very detailed, so at least he is he satisfied with that.

And basically I think the major sticking point in terms of what I am getting is that he is making the assertion that there is no real equality of status between the islands, but one would have pointed it out that in clause 5, it is here.
It is in the Bill, but I think yet he doubts that what is in the Bill is meant by what is in the Bill.

And I hear the Chairman, when she is making the point but I think it will be helpful to the Committee if he can just go through the Bill perhaps clause by clause—I think that is quite a generous offer—and just say well, in this clause we are not happy with this and it differs from what we had sent or what our intentions are.

I think that is what you are trying to say, eh, I think so.
Madam Chairman: Yeah, that is accurate.

Ms. John: Yes, okay, thank you.

Madam Chairman: Mr. Charles, may I ask that if you wanted to send us the 10 UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 28 2021.04.30 points or 11 points in writing, that would assist us, but member Indarsingh has an intervention.
Mr. Indarsingh: Well, what would lead me to, based on what you are suggesting, Madam Chairman, if Mr. Charles and his team may need some additional time to document what they want to put before the Committee.

Madam Chairman: In that regard, as I said it could be sent to us in writing immediately and we would be able to examine what it is.

Mr. Charles, is there anything else that you would like to raise with us?
Mr. Charles: I thought that— Madam Chairman: Because there are other stakeholders who have joined us and we can hear from other stakeholders in the meantime.

Mr. Charles: I saw somebody here made a suggestion, that if you look at the Constitution (Amdt.)
Bill and you—I think it is Ms. Sen. John, Jearlean, and you go through it and just raise the item, clause 1 or clause 6 and hear my objection to it or hear what I am in concurrence with, it would help you and that does not detract from the fact that we will, Tobago will and I will repeat Tobago again, will submit what they would have agreed upon, that should be contained as Tobago’s responsibility.

Madam Chairman: All right, as Sen. John said, yes we can do that.
I have been giving you that generous offer for the entire morning— Mr. Charles: I thought it is you?

Madam Chairman:—so it is three of us but go ahead, Mr. Charles, tell us.

Mr. Charles: I thought you were going— Madam Chairman: Tell us from clause— Mr. Charles: Yeah, you were going to take the clauses.

Madam Chairman: Right, so were are at clause 7, so tell us clause 7 what is the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 29 2021.04.30 concern and you can go through the clauses and tell us what the concerns are.

So we are at clause 7.

Mr. Charles: Clause 7 is the one that talks about the chapeau.

Madam Chairman: Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill, the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill at clause 7, because there are two Bills before us.

Mr. Charles: Yeah, I am looking at the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill.

We do not have a problem with—because that is what should be there.
That—if you are looking— if clause 7 starts with section 5(2).

Madam Chairman: Clause 8.

Mr. Charles: With 5(2), we must have a Tobago legislature if we have to make policy in Tobago and implement them or pass laws.

Madam Chairman: Okay, so we go on to clause 8 now.


Mr. Charles: And I am not saying that I want to discuss the way this is drafted, and to say whether I agree with this drafting; I am dealing with policy, strict policy matter and that is what I am dealing with, the way it is drafted I am not discussing the drafting.

Madam Chairman: Right, we know that.

Mr. Charles: The Attorney General’s suggestion is one that I think that we would submit the information to you.
Madam Chairman: Okay, so you want to go on to clause 8, if you have some concerns about clause 8?

Mr. Charles: Yeah, but there is a Fourth Schedule, if you notice clause 8—and this is what I am saying, clause 8 would have spoken to the fact that we are going to be given the power to make laws, that is what a legislature is all about.
But then it is what it went on to say, that the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago, we are only making laws that would not be affecting Trinidad but the island of Tobago UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 30 2021.04.30 and the people of Tobago.

But your Parliament can overwrite those laws at any time, our laws cannot be in conflict with, that is, we do not agree with it.
Madam Chairman: Okay, but Mr. Charles, remember it is not your Parliament and my Parliament, it is the Parliament of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago bearing in mind all the time that we remain a unitary state.

So, it is the Parliament which is the supreme law- making body of Trinidad and Tobago but because of according internal self-government the Tobago Legislature will be able to make laws for the Tobago island.
So, it is—it will continue to be the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago Legislature making laws for Tobago.

The AG wants to come in here and I will ask the AG to intervene at this point please.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, Mr. Charles very generously accepted the invitation to reduce his concerns, the 11 points that he has raised, so I thank him sincerely for agreeing to that.
I wanted to make the point but you have made it very clearly and succinctly that there is not “your” Parliament and “my” Parliament.

“Your” Parliament and “my” Parliament would exist in a federal system or in a state of secession where you are leaving the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago, so I just wanted to join you in making that observation so I look forward to Mr. Charles’ point.
The last point that I would say is that I must remind that the purpose of consultation on a Bill involves looking at how the policy is drafted into law and that we cannot simply discuss policy by itself, we must look at the manner in which the prescription for the policy is delivered, and clause by clause is intended to make sure we got the prescription for the policy right.

So I would encourage Mr. Charles to also guide us on his concerns on that end.

Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.

Madam Chairman: Before you stop could you perhaps just explain clause 8?

AG.

Mr. Al- Rawi: Madam Chair, is that an invitation to me or an invitation to— Madam Chairman: Yes to you, to explain clause 8.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 31 Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, Ma’am, I am happy to do that.

Madam Chairman: In terms of the drafting of clause 8.

2021.04.30 Mr. Al-Rawi: Sure, give me a moment just to pull it up.
Okay, so clause 8, forgive me, I am scrolling as we speak.

Clause 8, seeks to amend section 53 of the Constitution.

Section 53 of the Constitution is a critical section of the Constitution, where you have the power to make laws for the peace, order and good governance of Trinidad and Tobago.

That is the general provision in section 53.

It is the power by which the Parliament of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago has the ability to make laws to govern Trinidad and Tobago.
In causing an exception to section 53 of the Constitution, we are stating specifically that the Parliament of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago now has a caveat.

The caveat is set out by the introduction of new subsection, set out in clause 8, subsections (2), (3), (4), (5) and (6) of the proposed additions to the Constitution.
This is an entrenched provision in the Constitution and therefore, introducing this amendment is a very critical and very powerful step to ensuring that what is set out cannot be changed easily or lightly.

In the proposed amendment of clause 8 you will note that subsections (1) and (3) of the Constitution of section 53 are being modified so that the Tobago legislature may make laws for the peace, order and good governance of Tobago, with respect to the matters set out in the Fourth Schedule.
At subsection (3), we say that: “The power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws shall not extend to— (a) altering the provisions of this Constitution;” That is, the entrenchment provision that you cannot amend the Constitution by a Tobago Act of the Tobago Legislature.

And secondly, that in subsection (b) we are saying that special majority laws, laws which are amended by special majority UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 32 2021.04.30 considerations, i.e.
amendments to the law which affect special rights set out in sections 4 and 5 of the Constitution, shall be outside of the power of the Tobago legislature.

The reason for that is quite simple, the conflict of laws would be very significant and also too, the danger would be savings law may inadvertently be thrown away.

I will give you an example.


If the Tobago legislature were to say that we are no longer exercising the death penalty, which is a saved law pursuant to subsection (6) of the Constitution, but which affects the right to life which is a section 4 right in the Constitution, there would be a conflict between the Tobago law and the Trinidad law, which when you look at it from a unitary state of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, may have the consequence of throwing all of the law out.
This runs to the root of things like specific repeal and implied repeal.

In the vision set out in subsection (4): “Where a Tobago Act is inconsistent with an Act passed by Parliament, the Act passed by Parliament prevails…” Again, this is a very carefully worded position, which is common in all examples of autonomy states.

You can look to St. Kitts and Nevis, you can look to Tanzania, you can look to lots of other jurisdictions.
When we deal with this we have to state what law is in prevalence because of the implied repeal arguments in law.
Sometimes we pass a law, we do not expressly intend to modify another law but the rule is that the more recent law will amend the older law and there is therefore the concept of something called implied repeal in law, therefore stating which law is to prevail that is the National Law of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, and perhaps I should say, the Republic of Tobago and Trinidad, equally, because they are unitary that is why that provision is there.
At subsections (5) and (6): UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 33 2021.04.30 “(5) Subject to…(6), the power of Parliament to make laws having effect in Tobago shall not extend to any of the matters…in the Fourth Schedule.” So, the combination of (4) and (5) effectively say anything in that Fourth Schedule is within the exclusive domain of the Tobago legislature, does not include three fifths majority legislation, or legislation which will affect special rights set out in sections 4 and 5 of the Constitution and I can tack on saved law, which is in subsection (6) of the Constitution, they are all in that path.
Subsection (6) says: “At any time when it is expressly declared in any Act passed by Parliament that a provision…being a provision that relates to a Fourth Schedule matter is required to have effect in the island of Tobago— (a) in the interest of external affairs; (b) …national security; (c) …state of public emergency; or (d) in relation to a national financial crisis…” Then in those circumstances, and here is where we need a small adjustment, because at the word “that”, should go out into what we call the shoes, it should not be a part of section (d) —of paragraph (d): “…that provision shall accordingly have effect in the island of Tobago, and where there is any inconsistency between that provision and the provision of any Act…the provisions of the Act…”—of—“…Parliament shall prevail.” So, these provisions are critically necessary again because of the unitary state.
States of emergency are not permitted under section 9 of the Constitution, to be exercised as a partial state of emergency.

There is a state of emergency and that state is the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

National security and external affairs UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 34 2021.04.30 or foreign affairs, there is one unitary state, so, for instance, it is not intended that the island of Trinidad can go on its own to the United Nations and make representations to the United Nations as Trinidad by itself.
Similarly, when we looked to financial crisis, as we saw prevailed in the collapse of the Clico empire, and when we had to exercise section 44 of the Central Bank Act to have powers of entry, there is a unitary aspect of financial crisis, and we have international obligations that we must comply with on those bases.

This takes us Madam Chair, to the provisions of Schedule 4 and Schedule 5, those are set out in very clear terms at the back of the Constitutional (Amdt.)
Bill, and I am sure that there would be some concerns that members may wish to discuss on those.

Section—the Fourth Schedule lists the matters that the Tobago Legislature shall have exclusive law-making power and they are set out in very similar terms to what we see in the Caribbean context.
And again, I draw example from St. Kitts and Nevis as well, and those are specifically set out it takes us to the Fifth Schedule which is administrative, and that is tacked onto the power of what a Cabinet can do, versus what I will call the Cabinet of Tobago or the Executive Authority of Tobago.

I hope that has lent some clarity to your questions, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, member Al-Rawi.

Mr. Charles, can we move now to clause 9?


Mr. Charles: Ma’am, I am still—even though we have to end there, even though we have to end here, what the Attorney General would have just said— Madam Chairman: “Um-hmm.” Mr. Charles:—if we look at where we are from 1996 with the very the Act, Act No.

40 of 1996, that we have had in operation for that while, section 25, and UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 35 2021.04.30 because it could not have been passed with a special majority to affect the Constitution and so on, it says: “Without prejudice to section 75(1) of the Constitution”—we know what section 75(1) says—“the Assembly shall, in relation to Tobago, be responsible for the formulation and implementation of policy…”— on a number—“of…matters…” — they are—“…in the Fifth Schedule.” Madam Chairman: Yeah, correct.

Mr. Charles: And there are about 33 of them.


Now, in this amendment, this amendment to the Constitution, you are now saying to Tobago in this amendment to the Constitution, that we are now going to be having exclusive law-making power on a few items.

And in the Fifth Schedule, you would have taken away some of those responsibilities of Tobago and put for us to implement policy, formulate them and implement, that means that we must pass the laws and implement them.
We are now going to be responsible for carrying out a decision that is made elsewhere by you in Trinidad, and I say in Trinidad.

So, we are going backward and this is why I said this Bill is actually clawing back responsibilities that we had.

I thought that we would have moved a long way and that we are coming here now where we are in 2021, to finalize what was decided by the Parliament in 1977.
Madam Chairman: Okay, Mr. Charles, let me just say that the Fourth Schedule deals specifically with what the lawmaking powers of the— Mr. Charles: That is right.

Madam Chairman:—Tobago legislature will be, specifically the lawmaking powers.

And you will recall that right now, what the THA can do is only make by- laws for Tobago.

Mr. Charles: Only we can make by-laws.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 36 2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: However, however, what would happen now is that you are able to make laws for Tobago; laws, not by-laws.

And the Fifth Schedule outlines executive powers.

And there has been no attempt to constrain the executive powers.

Perhaps the Fifth Schedule may need to be broadened a bit in terms of how it is written.
But there has been no attempt to constrain that and, and the only areas that you would not have executive power over would be national security, and foreign affairs, and very other limited areas.

In terms of the law-making power, that law-making power is extremely wide and is set out in the Fourth Schedule.

So I just wanted you to be sure that that is what the situation is— Mr. Charles: That is no— Madam Chairman:—and is not any attempt to constrain Tobago in any way.
Because the Tobago legislature will be able to make laws, not by-laws.

And what I would—so could you tell us if there are any other specific clauses in the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill that you would like us to look at specifically, that you want to talk about now, or that you would put in writing?

Mr. Charles: Ma’am, Ma’am Chair, let me just clarify this issue based upon what you just said because this is in the public domain.
And what this is saying the Fourth Schedule, is that we are—Tobago will now be responsible for a law- making, its formulation of policy, formulate like making and passing laws.

Right now, under the Fifth Schedule under section 25 with the present Tobago House of Assembly Act, it did not say subject to even the Cabinet you know, it says, “Without prejudice to”.
What the Fifth Schedule is saying is that you are making the decision in Trinidad with respect to our agricultural lands and fisheries, our community development, our culture, and all these matters that are there and Tobago is to implement what you say, no matter if it is to our detriment— UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 37 2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: That is not so.

Mr. Charles, sorry.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, it is the opposite to what Mr. Charles is saying.
Madam Chairman: Mr. Charles, sorry.

That is not so.

Mr. Charles, that is not so.

Mr. Charles: Could you explain it to me?

Madam Chairman: Yes, I will do that again.

The Fourth Schedule refers to the areas where there will be specific lawmaking powers of the Tobago legislature, laws for Tobago, laws.

What Tobago can do now is make by-laws.

Tobago cannot make laws for Tobago.

So that is a vast improvement.


Secondly, with regard to the Fifth Schedule, that outlines the Executive powers of the Tobago Island Government, the Executive powers.

So, its lawmaking power and Executive power.

Of course, there will be overlap, because once there is a policy, you may need legislation to implement the policy.

What exists now is not that.

You have Executive power now in Tobago in various areas, but you cannot make laws.
What this legislation will be doing is ensuring that you have that legislative capability, and always within the context of the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago and in accordance with the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago.

And I think the AG wants to make a comment here.

AG?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Charles, I really thank you for taking your time to explain to us what your thinking is, but Madam Chair captured it completely.
What we have said with exact certainty is what Tobago can do.

It takes all of the administrative autonomy that it used to have in the THA plus more.

It takes legislative functionality in a way that it did not have before.

It can make its own laws.


The only exceptions to the laws are, a special majority law affecting a right in sections 4 or 5 or anything in Part I, which is state of emergency, save law, et cetera, forgive me—save law, that is at section 6—and it specifically says that Trinidad and Tobago may not separate itself from the Parliament overall role only UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 38 2021.04.30 where there is a conflict between the laws or you step outside.
Because, obviously, when you say one person can do X and one person can do Y, the law must be prescriptive enough to contemplate if there is a conflict, if there is a collision between factors, and that is why the prescription on the agreed policy is set out the way it is.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, member Al-Rawi.
And let me amplify this to Mr. Charles, and say that it will now be in the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago, in the Constitution, and this section of the Constitution, once it is passed, will be passed with a special majority.

Mr. Charles: Ma’am, Ma’am and I believe that we may end on this, because we are going down the same road.

I am saying to you, I am reading your Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill.
Bill.

It says before me, under the Fifth Schedule, that the Tobago legislature will have lawmaking powers in respect of these matters that are listed there.

That is what it says, and law is the tool for the implementation of public policy, whether it is THA or the central government, however, once it is public policy.

That is what we are responsible for.

In the Fifth Schedule it says that these are matters for which we would have, just administrative powers.
So somebody will be making the policy, and then we will have to just be managing it and carrying it out in Tobago.

This is what it does.

Madam Chairman: No, no.

Mr. Charles, please, please, that is not—let me say, that is not what it says.

The Fifth Schedule is headed, “The List of Responsibility Areas For Which The Tobago Island Government Shall Have Exclusive Administrative Powers In Tobago”.

Mr. Charles: What is meant by that?


Madam Chairman: The Fourth Schedule has said “The List Of Subjects For Which The Tobago Legislature Shall Have Exclusive Law Making Powers in UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 39 2021.04.30 Tobago”, and the list is very extensive.

Both lists are extensive.

And, let me say, maybe we need to change the word that when we say “exclusive administrative powers” it is the Executive power.
These are the areas and this means the entire of Tobago, unless something is excepted, and very few exceptions have been made.

Mr. Charles: But quickly.

Madam Chairman: So, Mr. Charles, I hope you are not confusing “Executive” with “administrative” or that because we have listed it as administrative, it means that we, as you say, Trinidad going to be sending things for you to be able to do in Tobago.

That is not the intention.

And if you read the Constitution (Amdt.)


Bill in its entirety, you would see that it all leads to ensuring that Tobago is given what Tobago wants, which is, to be able to make laws for Tobago with policy and to be able to control its own destiny in terms of the Executive that is in charge of the Tobago island government.

Dr. Dillon-Remy: Chair?

Mr. Charles: Quickly Chair.

Madam Chairman: Member Dillon-Remy, please make your intervention.
Dr. Dillon-Remy: I am just asking a question to see whether this may clear up the concern that Mr. Charles has, and the question is: Can Tobago make laws for the matters that are in the Fifth Schedule?

Mr. Charles: The Assembly or—Tobago cannot make any laws, not even— Dr. Dillon-Remy: No, sorry.

No, Mr. Charles, I am just asking.

In the proposed Bill that is here, this is just to clarify your concerns about the Fourth Schedule and the Fifth Schedule.

Mr. Charles: Yes.
Mr. Charles: Yes.

Dr. Dillon-Remy: The Fourth Schedule says here, you shall have exclusive administrative powers in Tobago and you are saying that you cannot make laws for UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 40 these areas.

Right?

Mr. Charles: That somebody else is making them.

2021.04.30 Dr. Dillon-Remy: Right?


So, I am just asking the Chair and the Attorney General, based on what is written here, and what the law is intending, whether Tobago will have lawmaking powers for the areas in the Fifth Schedule.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Member Dillon-Remy, the Fourth Schedule is specific.

The Fourth Schedule says “The List of Subjects For Which The Tobago Legislature Shall Have Exclusive Law Making Powers In Tobago”.
It lists agriculture and they also have exclusive executive powers for agriculture.

It lists areas like: “…Hotels… …Housing …Industries… …Land and buildings other than land and buildings”—of—“the State… …Parks and other places for public recreation …Prevention and control of fires… …Sport and cultural activities” and; “…Any matter that is incidental or supplementary to any matter referred to in this list.” And it is very specific.

“…Borrowings of moneys…”—and so on.


All of those are the exclusive lawmaking powers in Tobago.

And then we have the exclusive Executive powers in Tobago, and that is another very long list.

So I think what we have attempted to do is to ensure that the areas excluding national security and foreign affairs are the ones that have been excluded in terms of lawmaking powers.

Everything else, with few exceptions, have been given to UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 41 2021.04.30 Tobago in the Fourth Schedule to be able to make laws for Tobago.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, could I just please add to what you have said— Madam Chairman: Certainly, certainly.

Mr. Al-Rawi:—in answer to member Dillon-Remy’s enquiry?

The Fifth Schedule, there is a distinction that we need to understand.

The Fourth Schedule says, go ahead and make laws exclusively for the matters set out in the Fourth Schedule.
That Fourth Schedule is tied on to the springboard of section 53 of the Constitution.

Section 53 of the Constitution is the power in the Constitution, the springboard in the Constitution that says, listen, you can make laws.

We have amended that to say now, Tobago can make laws.

We have amended section 53 then you spring from that board, and you go to the Fourth Schedule, we set out what they can make laws for.
The caveat to that is no three-fifths majority laws, no laws to affect the special majority considerations, the rights set out in sections 4 and 5 and to affect save laws.

The caveats are: national security, financial crisis, external affairs for the reasons that I have mentioned earlier.

The Fifth Schedule is to continue and broaden the power recognized by the courts of Trinidad and Tobago with respect to administrative responsibilities.
“Administration” means, if the Ministry of Education is doing something and it is to be rolled out by way of decision, that Tobago has the authority and only Tobago, to affect that part of the equation.

That has sprung from litigation coming on the Fifth Schedule of the THA Act.

The springboard is located in section 75 of the Constitution.

Section 75 of the Constitution is where a Cabinet would normally have the collective responsibility to make decisions and to administer them.
Now that is being amended, and Tobago’s Executive—I will call it the Tobago version of the Cabinet—Tobago’s authority has exclusive control for administration.

The law UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 42 2021.04.30 must be, therefore, improved the way we did.

Number one, legislative making power pursuant to section 63 of the Constitution as amended and, secondly, administrative power beyond doubt by amending section 75 of the Constitution.
I want to point out that this is much more than what existed before.

The THA Act itself was not entrenched in the Constitution insofar as administrative powers were done.

What we did in the Constitution, in the earlier days when this was dealt with, we amended and we included the Tobago House of Assembly.

So this is a dramatically important improvement to the constitutional functions of Tobago or legislative function and for administrative function.

Thank you, Madam Chair.


Madam Chairman: Thank you, member Al-Rawi.

Mr. Charles, let me just remind you that everything was in one previous Bill.

The entire Assembly was one.

What we are going to have now is an Assembly that is a legislative part of the Assembly, and we will have the Executive part of the Assembly, hence the Schedule.

The two Schedules try to give that distinction very clearly.

So there will be the lawmaking powers and there will be the Executive or administration powers.
Mr. Charles: Madam Chair?

Madam Chairman: And it would mean that it would be two entirely separate arms of the State or the Island Government of Tobago.

Mr. Charles: Madam Chair, having regard to all that have taken place so far, I want to just make this, in closing, that—and I started off by saying that I am totally disappointed at what we arrived at, and Tobago recognizes that we are a sovereign democratic state.

We recognize that.
We recognize that.

The document we prepared and sent down there, and that sovereign democratic state, as is stated in section 123 of the Constitution says, that we are a sovereign democratic state consisting of the island of Trinidad—forget the other things— and the island principally of Tobago.

And what we did was to amend to make sure that the public administration of the island UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 43 2021.04.30 of Trinidad in a sovereign democratic state is in the supreme law of the country, and the public administration of the island of Tobago that consistently states is in the supreme law of the country.

Why we prepared one document?

The procedure that you are following is to ensure that Tobago remains subordinate to Trinidad.

In fact, what you have done here, by this document, is to colonize and entrench the colonization of Tobago in this Constitution.
And I am sad.

I have worked on this with everybody, including you and you all, and I am so sad to know that we have gone back there.

I have read every contribution in Parliament from 1976, on the Tobago matter.
In 1996, I have read everybody’s contribution, including every Independent Senator, every member of the Opposition, those who are in Government right now today, and when I see this document, I recognize that there have been no change at all in the attitude of the PNM Government towards Tobago, and I did not want— Madam Chairman: Mr. Charles, I am sorry that you feel that way.

But let he remind you that the joint select committee is not the PNM.

Mr. Charles: I know.


Madam Chairman: The Joint Select Committee is made up of members of Parliament, not the PNM.

So I am sad that you would think that way.

But, Mr. Charles, I understand your feelings.

I want to thank you very much for your participation, and I would look forward to you sending us your concerns in writing and I would also look forward to us having these continued discussions, but we are moving to a point where we would like to bring this matter to the Parliament for debate.
But I thank you for your contribution today and I look forward to hearing from you further.

Could I indicate to our viewers and listeners that we are going to take a break, at this time, and we will resume within another half an hour, and we will UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 44 return to you shortly.

Thank you very much.

Meeting suspended.

Meeting resumed.


2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the listening and viewing public and welcome to those of you who are just joining us.

This is the continuation of the Joint Select Committee, resuming consultations on the Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill and the Tobago Island Government Bill.
Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to start, again, with the Committee members introducing themselves, and I will start with the members in Tobago.

[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: Thank you very kindly.

I understand we have our members who are not with us in this space, so I can ask those members to introduce themselves also, please.

[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: Thank you very kindly.
And just in case persons do not recognize me, I am the Chairman of this Joint Select Committee, Camille Robinson-Regis, member and Chairman of the Joint Select Committee.

I understand we have been joined by stakeholders, and I would like to ask those stakeholders to introduce themselves and I welcome them to this consultation.

Please introduce yourselves.

Officials of the Progressive Democratic Patriots Mr. Augustine: Good afternoon members of the Committee, good afternoon, Trinidad and Tobago.
I am Assemblyman Farley Augustine and I am the team leader for the Progressive Democratic Patriots.

The other six in the 6:6 deadlock in Tobago, and with me this afternoon, I have, joining from various locations: UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 45 2021.04.30 Assemblyman Dr.

Faith B. Yisrael, Assemblyman Ian Pollard, Assemblyman Pastor Terrence Baynes and Assemblyman Zorisha Hackett.
Madam Chairman: Thank you very kindly, and welcome to all of you who are here with us.

I would just like to start with some brief opening remarks.

And, again, I would like to welcome all who are here and to thank you very much for joining us, because these consultations are very important.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Joint Select Committee of the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago on the Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 is, as I have said before, pleased to resume consultations with Tobago on this important legislative proposal.

We remind all that these consultations actually began many years ago.

Many of you in Tobago will recall the islandwide consultations and discussions that were held over the period 2014 to 2016.
These discussions culminated with a debate in the Tobago House of Assembly and the output of those discussions and debates was a draft Bill to amend the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago to accord self-government to Tobago.

This was the genesis of the Bill laid in the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago in 2018.

This Bill was sent to a joint select committee in March of 2018.
Over the period 2018 and 2019, that Committee called for comments and submissions and held a series of public hearings with stakeholders and experts from Tobago and Trinidad, as well as legal and other experts with knowledge and experience in relevant constitutional matters from a number of other jurisdictions.

The life of that committee ended in 2020.

Upon the resumption of the new Parliament, the Bill was referred to a new committee in November 2020.

This is the Committee that is before you.


With the aid of the body of research inherited from the last Committee, the new joint select committee set about its work and this Committee has since circulated our UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 46 2021.04.30 preliminary findings and proposals and, today, we begin receiving your comments.
Since this matter is exceedingly important, particularly to our Tobago brothers and sisters, we have begun in Tobago and we are quite pleased that Tobago is talking.

However, we have to talk to each other in our chatrooms as our lives have been changed and I wish to take this opportunity to thank those of your who have taken the opportunity and the time to come before us.

I also wish to remind the people of Trinidad and Tobago of the following.
One, the legislation before the Committee is for the autonomy of Tobago.

Two, there are two draft Bills for consideration at this stage: one, is the Bill to amend the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago and the second is to provide for operational matters of the Tobago Island Government.

Three, autonomy is not to be equated with federation.

Four, autonomy is not equal to succession or separation.
Five, the existing Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago makes Trinidad and Tobago a unitary sovereign state or an archipelagic sovereign state.

So, let us continue our discussions on the Bills before us.

So, ladies and gentlemen, let us start our discussions and I invite, is it Mr. Augustine?

Assemblyman Augustine, please you have the floor.

Mr. Augustine: Thank you, Madam Chair.


I wish begin my opening remarks in a way that is very indicative of my “Tobagonianess” by drawing on an analogy, because in Tobago we like to give stories as part of our tradition as a way of explaining what we mean.

Trinidad and Tobago is quite like siblings who were bequeathed house and land from a grandparent, so we have this house and land.
What has happened since is we have one sibling living upstairs and one sibling living downstairs, quite a common scenario for Trinidad and Tobago, where sometimes one sibling or one relative would just move downstairs and build down the downstairs and live there.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 47 2021.04.30 What Tobago has been asking for, for a very long time, is that we be given the permission to, in a very equal fashion, move out of the downstairs and build our own home alongside the existing family home.

So that on this vast expanse of property, we will now have two homes standing side by side.
What we have been demanding, for a very long time, if you should trace the history, is that we be given the authority, the autonomy rather, the right to build up that house the way we see fit.

It may not resemble exactly the original family home.

It may not be painted in the same colour as the original family home but we are certain that should we be given this opportunity to build out next door, everyone that passes and look at this vast family property will see two siblings striving side by side.
That is what we desire.

Having shared that analogy, and looking at the object lessons from that, and looking at what we desire, I wish to start by, from the get-go, presenting what my team and many Tobagonians that we represent, see as our thesis based on what we have read from the last iteration of the last Bill that we were given, bearing in mind we would have read the 2016 version that was set down some time in 2018.
In 2018 we saw some changes to that and now in 2001 we are seeing some additional changes.

From our discussions with people over the past few days, because it has just been a few days, we have found that the consensus from the people we represent is that the Bill, despite saying that it wishes to amend the Constitution to afford Tobago equality in status with Trinidad—in fact it says: “…equality”—in—“status between the Island of”—Tobago—“and the Island of”— Trinidad.
We have found that the mechanisms that were placed within both the constitutional amendments and the Tobago Bill does not in fact afford such equality in status.

In UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 48 2021.04.30 fact, we have found that this Bill all but recolonizes Tobago.
I wish to share about five very broad categories and a list of areas, some examples from the actual Bill that are—I would hope that we can discuss and that my colleagues who have joined me will help me in deliberating on with you, the Committee.

Those five broad areas which we think that will lead to problems are: one, we feel that the Bill, those documents poorly and in some cases wrongly defines Tobago; that is number one.
Number two, we also feel that there cannot be equality in status where the overreach of the Cabinet continues to be as broad or even broader than it is now.

Number three, we found that the Bill entrenches a governance structure and model that does not lend itself to full participatory democracy.

And in many ways what we see is an attempt perhaps to mirror some of what we may have in the national Parliament, but that does not allow for the kinds of oversight that Tobago wants.
And we must bear in mind that the very construct of the THA with its Chief Secretary and Secretaries and the fact that we sit around a horseshoe and we have what is called a Minority Leader as opposed to an Opposition Leader is because Tobago, from the onset, has been deliberate in wanting something that is different and may at times not even represent Westminster style of governance to its fullest.
Fourth, we found that the Bill also has gone progressively in a retrograde step over the—between 2016 and 2021, and as a result of these we find that the ultimate goal, which is to allow Tobago to reach its fullest potential in terms of economic, social, cultural, and so on, that Tobago will not be able to reach its fullest potential.
I wish to say, before I begin pointing out the areas of the Bill, that we will want to have some discussion on that we get the sense that every time we come about this process that there is an element of fear in the room; fear on one side— UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 49 2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: Sorry, Mr. Augustine, let me ask, did you have two more points, we got three so far?
Mr. Augustine: I identified one, the Cabinet control; two, the definition of Tobago; three, the— Madam Chairman: Cabinet control.

Mr. Augustine: Three, I looked at democracy and oversight; four, I looked at the actual structure and model that is placed within the Constitution that will require— Madam Chairman: Five.

Mr. Augustine:—that will require—sorry—that any time we need amendments, it means that Tobago has to— Madam Chairman: And what is number five?

Mr. Augustine:—come back to Trinidad.


And the fifth thing I stated is that we have seen clear and progressive but retrograde steps in 2016 and 2020.

Madam Chairman: All right.

Okay.

Thanks.

So the first one.

Mr. Augustine: Right.

So I was at the point of saying that we have recognized that historically, whenever we are at this process, there is sometimes that element of fear that, should we give Tobago autonomy; it means that we are losing Tobago.
And I want to preface our discussion to come by asking that we spend some time looking at the devolution of powers that exist within the United Kingdom and how broad-based they are, especially as it relates to Scotland and Wales, so much so that these territories have the right if they want based on the devolution of powers to secede, but that does not impede them from having a United Kingdom.

And so, granting Tobago its autonomy does not in any way impede us from having a united Trinidad and Tobago.
Having said that, if we look at section 6(b), page 3, and we are talking immediately about the issue of defining “Tobago” and what that means, I can let UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 50 2021.04.30 you know that what Tobago sent down, Tobago sent down the following as the definition of “Tobago” to be placed in the Bill, and let me read that for you verbatim.
Tobago sent the following: ‘Tobago’ shall comprise the island of Tobago, Little Tobago, Saint Giles Island, Marble Island, Goat Island, Sisters Island and other offshore islands and the archipelagic waters lying landward of the established straight baseline, the 12-mile territorial sea measured seaward from the said baselines, as well as the inland waters equidistance between the island of Trinidad and the island of Tobago and to the extent of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago and the superjacent airspace above these aforementioned maritime areas and over the land space.
Every Tobagonian we speak to feels strongly that Tobago should be defined in that way in the Bill.

Now, defining Tobago in that way in the Bill does not mean that you are going to give the new THA or the Tobago Island Government, as it is called in the Bill, full legislative jurisdiction over all that I have just said.

However, whether it is we are given jurisdiction over 11 miles, six miles, or what have you, we feel that that definition of Tobago must be very clear, as I just stated it, in the Bill.
We also find it problematic when we are talking about the definition of “Tobago” by virtue of where we are seeing our jurisdiction, and you could correct me if I am wrong, that based on what is present in the pieces of legislation is that basically THA’s jurisdiction will now be landlocked, meaning that we are basically just in charge of the land space that is the island of Tobago and just the offshore islands.
That poses implications for the development of our blue economy and it means then that— Madam Chairman: Mr.— UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 51 Mr. Augustine: Augustine?

2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: [Technical difficulties]—with this particular point.

Thank you.

Member Rambharat, please.

Mr. Rambharat: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

And Assemblyman Augustine and your team, I am very happy to be able to engage with you today.
I think because I am the Minister with responsibility for land I was drawn into your opening and your analogy and I just want to take you back to your analogy to ask a few questions.

But before I do that, the bottom line is that I am still not clear on your five points.

Point number four, you referred to model and I am still not clear what your model is and what model you propose.
You have made reference to the United Kingdom and you have used in that reference the “s” word, secession, and you have said that any component of the United Kingdom could secede and they will still remain the United Kingdom.

And it caught my attention that you would say that because at this time in the United Kingdom there is discussion on who wants to exist and who wants to reunify.
In fact, the Irish are talking about coming back together and the Scots are looking at being able to stand alone, and in that UK discussion I never got the impression that in anybody exiting you end up remaining united.

And I do not get the impression that if it is that you are suggesting secession for Tobago that we could remain a united Trinidad and Tobago.
To me the best way I could describe my difficulties so far, and I know you would help me with it, is to go back to the reference that the younger people use—and you are a young man yourself recently engaged and I congratulate you.

It sounds like it is friends with benefits is the model that you are proposing and I have grave difficulty in that.

So going back to the analogy I would ask you, on that plot of family land are you proposing a subdivision?
Are you proposing that the two—the subdivision UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 52 2021.04.30 entail the creation of two parcels which are held in separate titles?

What exactly is the model that you are proposing because we have had references to self- determination, internal self-government and you have brought the notion of the UK model, as you described it, using the word “secession” and proposing that even with secession you can have unity?
And I would suggest that that model is tantamount to friends with benefits.

So on your fourth point out of the five, I would like to know very clearly what model do you propose for the relationship between Trinidad and Tobago?

Madam Chairman: Thank you, member Rambharat.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, I have a few questions for member Farley.

Madam Chairman: I am going to ask member Al-Rawi to come in before Assemblyman Augustine speaks.

Member Al-Rawi.
Member Al-Rawi.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, Madam Chair, and good afternoon to you, Assemblyman and your team.

Thank you so much for coming today to give us your points.

I had the same question in a different way that member Rambharat put which is, what exactly is the model you are proposing?

Because what you have put forward there sounds simple enough but is dangerously unclear because you are referring to a precedent of a jurisdiction which in law cannot be treated the way ours is.
Let me just ask you when you are answering member Rambharat to also answer the following things or to tell us your views on this.

Number one, the United Kingdom does not have a written constitution and we do; number two, the traditional and conventional law from an international law perspective and from a convention law perspective have been settled.
So, specifically as it relates to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, the concept of Scotland seceding, having succession, is not affected by the convention of the international law on the sea because the convention which existed for 1,000 years prior will UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 53 prevail.

2021.04.30 Trinidad and Tobago in the 1986 period entered into certain maritime issues which are critical to Trinidad and Tobago’s perspective.
So I want you to clarify how you are comparing the English precedent which does not have a constitution and has conventional rights of over 1,000 years to what you are suggesting to Trinidad and Tobago.

And secondly, this is very, very important now, you made reference to the definition of Tobago in the Bill as it was proposed but you said in that, that it is not as if you are going to ask for legislative power over these waters.
You said it was a retrograde step effectively and that you insisted upon the maritime boundaries being decided and stated.

Could you please therefore factor in your response the following?

Number one, the international law of the sea experts have advised Trinidad and Tobago that because we are a unitary state and an archipelagic state that the ratios for sea to land between Trinidad and its waters versus Tobago and its waters is almost dramatically half of what it ought to be.
In fact, it is one-third of what it ought to be if you treat Tobago and its waters versus Trinidad and it waters.

If you treat those two that way you are going to get one-third of the protection for your international maritime boundary and your exclusive economic zone.

When you treat Trinidad and Tobago as an archipelagic state, a unitary state as one where Trinidad and its waters are not defined from Tobago and its waters, that you put Trinidad and Tobago, you get two-thirds more.
So is it that you are suggesting that your position on behalf of your party that Trinidad and Tobago should give up two-thirds of its economic exclusive rights and therefore give away oil and gas and other mining rights to the States of Barbados, Suriname and Grenada?

Is that what you are proposing that we give up two- thirds of our natural resources?

Mr. Augustine: I thank you for the questions.

Can I proceed now to respond?

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 54 2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: Please go ahead.

And thank you very much, member Rambharat and member Al-Rawi.

Please go ahead, Assemblyman.

Mr. Augustine: Sure.


Now the point I was making in relation to drawing a comparison with the devolution of powers that occur within the United Kingdom was not to say that Tobago wants to secede at this time but was to establish that they are called the United Kingdom and they have as a policy, written or unwritten, that elements, that parts of that United Kingdom can secede if they so want to.
That does not exist in this Bill and we are not saying that it should, but I am making the point very clear that we should not be afraid to accord onto Tobago the kind of broad-sweeping autonomy cause that the people of Tobago are seeking because that in itself does not make us any less united.

The only time we come— Madam Chairman: Could I—sorry.

Can I say that there is no— Mr. Augustine: [Technical difficulties]—to separate from each other.

Madam Chairman: Okay.


Can I say very clearly that there is no such fear as you call it and I think that would be unfortunate if anybody thinks that way.

But let me just take a little opportunity now to indicate that with regard to the United Kingdom as it relates to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, I am going to read something for you: The devolved administrations have devolved powers over specific matters.
The British Government exercises reserved powers over all other matters as follows, and the devolved powers are as follows: health and social care, education and training, local government, agriculture, forestry and fisheries, transport, some taxation, justice and policing, some social security elements, sports and the arts.

And the areas where there is reserved power that is held by the central government are: defence, foreign affairs, immigration, trade policy, constitution and broadcasting.
UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 55 2021.04.30 And let me say, if we look at our fourth and fifth Schedules that we have put into the Constitution amendment, the proposed Constitution amendment, you would note that it is very similar to what is here in the United Kingdom that you have been referencing.

So please go ahead— Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, could I please?

Madam Chair: Yes, member Al-Rawi.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you so much for that clarification.
And on the record if I could get Mr. Farley, please, while he is clarifying—and thank you for doing so, you started off by saying not being afraid to give Tobago that which it wants.

I would like you, please, in addressing this devolution of powers to state specifically what you mean.

But very importantly, if I could get an immediate answer on, are you telling Tobago and Trinidad to give up two- thirds of their natural resources by defining the waters as you suggest?

Mr. Augustine: Thank you.


Well, if I am given the opportunity to finish responding to all the things raised by both yourselves, Ministers Al-Rawi and Rambharat, we will get through the very question you are asking again.

And I am happy that Madam Chair read what occurs within the United Kingdom because you can see that Scotland has some authority when it comes to taxation, for example, so it can raise its own revenue in that regard which is not afforded to Tobago through what is being proposed right now.
We could also see that the kind of autonomy that Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland have within the arrangement that is the United Kingdom, is far broader than what is being offered to Tobago today through what is being proposed.
And the reason why I referenced the United Kingdom is because, one, they are a part of the Commonwealth and we share similar legal system; two, we also have developed and evolved from the Westminster politic system as they have and so it is well worth our while to draw UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 56 such comparisons.
2021.04.30 Let me answer Minister Rambharat by indicating that when I say that we want the powers to move off from downstairs and build next door, I am talking about it in a similar fashion to what happens with most—with many families across Trinidad and Tobago.
You have a piece of land, at one point you are living downstairs and the next point you say, “Look, there is this piece of land out back, I am going to go there and build.” Nobody is pulling a fence between the two houses; on one is saying that the fruit trees across both properties cannot be accessed by children from both households.

What is simply happening is that we are having two structures side by side.
Whether you think that is Town and Country approved or not, that happens in a significant number of cases across this country.

And what that analogy points to is what Tobago wants out of this arrangement called Trinidad and Tobago.

I would also like to say to Minister Al-Rawi with the matter of defining Tobago, in 2017, 2018 thereabout, we were invited by the then Chief Secretary— PNM Chief Secretary, that is Mr. Charles, to sit with a team that included Mr. Hochoy Charles.
They called it the Forum of Political Parties of which we have never been a part of.

And in that discussion and in consultations with Tobagonians, because subsequent to that one meeting we went about collectively, PNM Tobago, PDP Tobago, speaking to Tobagonians about the differences between what we sent down to Trinidad and what we were getting out of the process and one of the things that came up was the issue of defining Tobago.
And it was made very clear that the THA at that time, or previously rather, would have sought legal advice from international legal experts that said contrary to what you are now proffering.

And so it is a matter of us having two distinctly different definitions or interpretations rather of what can obtain.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 57 2021.04.30 In fact, if I go as far as to last year, I saw candidates for your party who are now Members of Parliament saying on the hustings and saying on interviews that, “Look, Tobago has to be defined a particular way in this Bill”, and that is because for us in Tobago we do not see the same legal challenge as you see and we do not see that in defining what is Tobago and setting out clearly a policy of responsibility in terms of who will be responsible for what within that area that that somehow will result in us having far less territorial seas accorded unto us.
So we do not share that opinion with you but I am happy to point out that, no, I am not saying that Tobago wants to secede; that is not what Tobago wants at this time.

What Tobago wants is its autonomy and what Tobago is saying to our colleagues and friends and family in Trinidad is that having this—giving us the autonomy as we desire, it does not in any way lead to a fracturing of the union that is Trinidad and Tobago.
Notwithstanding historically this union was a forced marriage, we do not believe that by according to Tobago the kind of autonomy that we propose, that we desire, that we have been clamouring for since James Biggart, through APT James, through Robinson and Winston Murray, all the way to this present moment that that autonomy in no way jeopardizes the union that is Trinidad and Tobago.
And so there is no need to be fearful of giving Tobago autonomy that it seeks and that is where we have some differences in opinion in terms of defining Tobago and why that should be part of the legislation.

Now, moving to the other areas, I want to bring in at this time Dr.

Faith B. Yisrael and Dr.

Faith B. Yisrael will be looking at section 11(1), page 6, as we look at the issue of Cabinet control in emergencies, of unforeseen circumstances, and the implications of that based on how it is written.
And she will also look at— [Technical difficulties] Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, before you move on— UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 58 2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: Let me just say—just a minute, member Al-Rawi.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Sorry, sorry, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: I just want to make the point again that the advice of the constitutional experts upon which we relied was that it is not advisable and it is impractical to divide the waters of a unitary state.
The AG had said this and the practice in international law does not support this.

Let me also say, just to amplify what I have just said, is that archipelagic states do not divide the waters between their regions or their islands, and the AG has talked about the one-third and the two-third, so I just thought that I would make that point again.

And, AG, please go ahead.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you so much.

Thank you, member Augustine, for your response.


Could I please ask so that we have a confirmation of your position; you indicated that you do not agree with the advice given to you, would you be so kind as to share the legal advice upon which you have based your statement that you effectively are saying that your party supports defining maritime boundary in the caution that I have offered?
I have said that the international law experts on the Law of the Sea have said to us that it is dangerous and retrograde to Trinidad and Tobago’s well-being, particularly in its economic exclusive zones to seek to define waters of Trinidad versus waters of Tobago, so would you be so kind as to provide to us after this meeting your legal advice in relation to this submission because this is a very core submission which we would like to be able to reflect upon so that we can address your issue in a very fulsome way.
Thank you so much.

I believe you are moving on to member Yisrael.

Mr. Augustine: Yes.

Just before I move on to Dr. Yisrael, I would indicate that that advice was brought to the Tobago House of Assembly as a whole and I will have that advice from the Tobago House of Assembly be forwarded to you.

And I UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 59 2021.04.30 would also put a plug to say that the leadership for that advice came not from the PDP but it actually came from members of our own party that led Tobago at that time and— Mr. Al-Rawi: If that is the case, we have that advice.
Mr. Augustine: Additionally though, if it is you are saying that we do not want to define Tobago in the Bill, may I ask what then prevents us from within this Bill saying, “Well, okay then, Tobago you have jurisdiction to make laws for all of those areas”?
Without saying, Tobago that belongs to you, that is Tobago—what prevents us from just simply saying, “Tobago, your jurisdiction, your legal jurisdiction, you can seek to develop or to explore all that is within that which I just read as that definition of Tobago”?

Mr. Al-Rawi: May I, Madam Chair?

Thank you, member Augustine.

Just to say this, we are talking about the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

So we have two Bills before us.


We are talking about defining the maritime boundary of Tobago in the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, not in an Act of Parliament, but in the Constitution.
The consequence of defining the waters of Tobago by itself is that the Law of the Sea and then our economic exclusive zone, from an archipelagic law perspective, the advice that we have received from international experts is that you will be giving effectively two- thirds—I am putting this in my own words—two-thirds of your economic zone.
So all of your oil and gas rights, that would be two-thirds more outside of where you are because of the ratios that the Law of the Sea operates on, you will be giving that up.

So the caution here is that in the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill, the advice is do UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 60 2021.04.30 not amend the Constitution to define the waters of Trinidad versus the waters of Tobago, because you will reduce yourself in the margin and the ratio, you will be giving up against other territories, in particular those to the north and to the south of us, Barbados, Grenada, Suriname, Guyana.

You will be giving up rights that you are entitled to.

I should point out as well— Mr. Augustine: Can I ask a question, Minister Al-Rawi?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Sure.
Mr. Al-Rawi: Sure.

Mr. Augustine: The question is: Did the previous six miles—because prior to these two pieces of legislation that we are now discussing— Mr. Al-Rawi: I was going to come to that.

Mr. Augustine:—did that affect us and our right to our EEZ?

Mr. Al-Rawi: That is an excellent question, member.

You have hit the nail on the head.

I was just about to come to that.

I started with the Constitution Bill.

The other Bill is comparable to the THA Act.


In the THA Act, there was the six-mile reference.

The international law experts have pointed out that that THA six miles has never been operationalized and, in fact, the submission in law is that it cannot be operationalized, that it is effectively useless.

But in any event, the legal opinion is that that is a subsidiary law to the Constitution.
The problem that we get into is amending the Constitution, if we are going to define the waters of Tobago and you have to define the waters of Trinidad, you are going to give up your economic zone or parts of your economic zone.

To answer your question, the reference in the THA Act to the six miles, even though it was there, the written opinion that we have, which is part of the Committee’s documents and which will become public, is that that law is unworkable.
What we did is we went to the models that exist in Caricom, St. Kitts and Nevis, et cetera, and we relied upon just the definition of the island of Tobago UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 61 2021.04.30 as it has been put forward and the island of Trinidad would obviously be the same, but we are not touching the maritime issues.

One last point.
One last point.

We are currently engaged in discussions at an international law level, in our oil and gas scenario in particular, where we are defining what our economic zones will include in terms of oil and gas.

We are dealing with our shipping laws and our maritime laws at the same point in time.

So at this moment in time, we are in a dangerous state of flux as a country, the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
The advice that has come to Trinidad and Tobago is do not touch your maritime boundaries in your Constitution and if you are looking to the comparator of the THA Act reference to the six miles, the advice is that that was unworkable in law and should be abandoned.

Mr. Augustine: Sorry to belabour this issue because now we are raising several other issues.
One of the reasons why Tobagonians far and wide, whether they support my party or not, are very resolute and very unwavering in their position in terms of defining what is Tobago, is that we are afraid of being pigeonholed when it comes to our ability to grow economically.
And if that is one of the goals of giving Tobago its autonomy, so that Tobago, as a contributor to the nation that is Trinidad and Tobago, can grow and arrive at a place where comparatively we are similar, we are at an even playing field with our brothers and sisters in Trinidad and Tobago, then we will have to have some ability to be able to explore for economic reasons that which exists in the maritime waters surrounding Tobago.

Let me give you a very simple example.


I represent the district of Parlatuvier/L’Anse Fourmi/Speyside.

In the year 2011, we were told by the THA—2011.

I did not even dream of a career in politics then—we were told by the then THA we would create a marine park for Speyside.

The THA has no authority to do so, notwithstanding the THA Act of 1996 giving UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 62 2021.04.30 us control over six miles of water.
We could not, and that is something that required action from the central government.

The very last act of the last THA is when we unanimously passed a marine Bill so that we could create a marine park down at the Buccoo area.
We have found from our experiences that something as simple as a marine park, which fits in tandem with our economic and our sustainable goals, and our economic plans and our tourism plans— because, you know, Tobago has always pitched itself as being safe and green and clean, and serene and so forth—we could not, because we just did not have the autonomy to do so.
One of the reasons why we are adamant about this point is because we want a THA that has the authority, if it needs to protect the marine life in Speyside, where I live, where I grew up, that I see every day, where we are experiencing coral bleaching and almost the death of the largest brain coral in the western hemisphere, the THA must be able to do so, without having to curtsy and beg someone at the national Parliament to make this a priority, when it may just not be a national priority for any Ministry at all.
That is why Tobagonians, like myself, would have a fundamental difference in opinion and a fundamental problem with the Bill as it is so written.

I feel the need to put that on the table, so you understand where I am coming from and know that this is not just PDP being facetious.

Madam Chairman: Okay, no, we do not think so.

We do not think so.

Attorney General, perhaps you can assist by indicating whether or not this Bill that is before us will prevent that from taking place.
Mr. Al-Rawi: Sure, Madam Chair, thank you.

Madam Chairman: Because that is a definite point and, perhaps, you can assist us in this way.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, thank you.

And thank you, Mr. Farley Augustine for UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 63 2021.04.30 a very good example.
First of all, the entire THA, including the representatives other than the PDP, sent the marine park Bill to the Parliament, under the process of a Tobago Bill, which is what the current law provides.

That therefore means that you are not alone in your desire to see Tobago have its legislative powers.

All of the representatives at the House of Assembly in its last form were in that same position.
Secondly, the good news is that the marine park Bill would be of the very type of Bill that Tobago could have involvement in, if not full autonomy in, by the structures that we are treating with here.

The question is this, if I put it very simply: Does an absence of six miles in the maritime boundary prohibit Tobago from passing a law which treats with Tobago waters or waters in or around Tobago?

The answer to that is that it depends upon the cases.
So it is a fact specific circumstance what we are giving now in this constitutional amendment Bill and the companion Bill, is the authority for Tobago to enter into its structures of legislative reform.

The international advice that we have received on the Law of the Sea, specifically, is that if Tobago were to have the maritime boundary stated, Tobago will get by far less than it deserves and worse yet, Trinidad and Tobago will probably lose about two-thirds of its structure.
That comes from the specific advice.

I should just put for the record, it is Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary, Gerald Thompson.

We also had advice coming from a member who sat on the Law of the Sea of the United Nations, retired Mr. Justice of Appeal Lucky.

The ratios that they are referring to in that particular context are what is very, very important for us to have knowledge of, and they specifically relate to revenue sharing.
Revenue sharing, as Mr. Augustine has put out, is exactly UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 64 2021.04.30 contemplated in this legislation and in the Constitution.

The ability to have revenue attributed directly to Tobago and to have control, all of that is inside of the particular structures.

So we are very much on the same page.

What this legislation does, the draft Bill before us, is that it gives Tobago more rather than less.
If you were to insist upon—if we as a group were to insist upon defining “waters”, we will be giving up much more than we are getting.

Ms. Cudjoe: Madam Chair?

Madam Chairman: Member Cudjoe, you have been wanting to make a point, then member de Freitas.

Ms. Cudjoe: Yes, I have been wanting to make a point.

Madam Chair, like Mr. Augustine said, any Tobagonian from any side of the divide is very, very passionate about this issue as it relates to the miles and the boundaries, and so on.
I think it takes nothing from us to share the advice that we were given and to ventilate this matter a little more, if not here, at some other time.

Maybe tomorrow we could come prepared to explore that matter because I know that both the Tobago House of Assembly, in sending its position to us, would have gotten legal advice also.
As the Attorney General has just stated, the legal advice that was available to us here at the Joint Select Committee, I think that Tobagonians would feel unsettled in moving forward if they are not able to fully capture and understand all that is before us.

So I really think that this is a matter that needs to be ventilated or the information needs to be shared also because this is near and dear to the heart of the Tobagonian.
I know today is not my time to talk but I just felt the need to make that interjection there.

Madam Chairman: Let me just say that this is a discussion.

It is a conversation that we are having, so that we can ensure that we ventilate all the issues.

Member UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 65 de Freitas?

2021.04.30 Mr. de Freitas: Thank you, Madam Chair.


So I have been listening to what the Attorney General has been saying and I have also been listening to what Mr. Augustine has been saying.
I just want to ask from the standpoint of the Attorney General, so as much as I understand the implications of having the maritime boundaries set out in the Constitution for us internationally, what I am asking is that I have seen suggestions elsewhere, in other learnings, that a sort of domestic- only arrangement can be come up with between Trinidad and Tobago, in relation to boundaries by way of nautical miles.
One of the arguments that was put forward, in relation to that as a benefit, was that it would not interfere with any of the international implications that the AG was suggesting would happen if we were to put it in the Constitution because that particular arrangement is only between Trinidad and only between Tobago, and has no weight internationally.

Because any implication internationally would only recognize the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago.
AG, is that something that is possible or is it not possible at all?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, I thank the member for the question.

That goes to the root of the caution coming from Ambassador Thompson, that the very reference to “six miles” in the THA Act is unworkable, if not wrong in law.

It is not the first time that we have seen things unworkable in the original THA structures.
For example, the impasse which has not allowed us to constitute, in full form, the full Assembly, is a very real example of the THA Act in its original form not going as far or ostensibly as it ought to, and why we must review it.

So my short answer to that is it is probably not going to happen.

It is traversed in the advice of Thompson.

That advice tells us that the reference to the six miles is something that ought not to have happened in the THA Act and cannot UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 66 2021.04.30 be implemented.

That is not to say, and this is very important, that Tobago cannot deal with its marine park.

In fact, that marine park Bill is near completion in terms of the workings that we have to do and that will certainly be something that will be returning to the forefront very shortly.

Mr. Augustine: Madam Chair— Madam Chairman: Just one question, Assemblyman, before you come in.

Let me just ask the AG.


AG, perhaps then for specificity, something like that we can do an amendment to the Fourth Schedule and the Fifth Schedule, where we talk about parks.

We have in the Fourth Schedule, we have law-making powers in relation to parks and other places for public recreation.

Perhaps we could include a phrase like “marine parks”, you know, that may help.

If we said “marine parks, parks and other places for public recreation”.

So that that concern would be alleviated.


And then, in the areas of exclusive executive or administrative powers, we can specifically talk about marine areas and so on.

Is that possible, AG?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, Madam Chair, we can certainly look at the marine park aspect.

The only caution right now—and understand this is just a temporary situation because the fisheries aspect and the Law of the Sea aspects are ongoing products right now.
We are not quite on firm, dried concrete yet and there are some large moving parts that we have to comply with when we are deal with—Minister Rambharat is the person with responsibility, and he can confirm what I am saying.

We are in a joint select committee right now with the new Shipping Bill and that has a lot of moving parts with international conventions that we are bound to deal with, lest we have a sinking of our industry.
I would just caution that until we finish that Bill, in particular, the Shipping Bill, we ought to be extremely circumspect about this until that is finished.

Mr. Augustine: Member?

Madam Chair?

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 67 2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: It was raised previously and it is being raised again, but it is something that we can undertake to look at.

Assemblyman Augustine, please go ahead.


Mr. Augustine: Yes, and I am glad you asked that question because if we should look at what is within the Fifth Schedule versus the Fourth Schedule, we would see fisheries in the Fifth Schedule.

So if what we have now is to be passed as is, it would mean that we would have a THA with so-called more autonomy that will still have to revert to the central government in Trinidad to be able to do something as simple as a marine park.
Even if we decide subsequent to the passing of this Bill, we want to go clean with fuel and we want to put up some windmills in the Atlantic, we have to wait on the central government to decide whether we can or cannot.
For many Tobagonians looking on, we find it somewhat unfair that we have been told, “Look, we cannot just yet decide whether we could give you some of these authorities because, one, we have one advice—one advice that cautioned, one—not multiple, but one advice that cautioned and, two, right now we are doing something with the Shipping Act to ensure we fix our shipping industry and so on, and so Tobago, you must wait on this matter.” The point of autonomy is that Tobago should be able to say, if it wants to carve out a slightly different economic trajectory to that of neighbouring Trinidad, that it has the autonomy so to do.
That is the point of autonomy.

So we cannot give it with one hand and take it back from the other.

But I expect us to have many, many more discussions on this.

I can tell you, Madam Chair, that we are going to embark on public meetings and discussions on the matter because you will appreciate that the Bill only got to us sometime last weekend thereabouts, and I am certain that this is one of the matters that Tobagonians will be raising over and over again.
So expect it to keep UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 68 2021.04.30 coming up until we find a suitable middle ground with on this matter.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, I do not want to interrupt unnecessarily, but just to correct something that the hon.

Assemblyman has put on the record.

This is not a simple matter.

It is not just, “Let us sort out the Shipping Bill so that we can sort out our shipping industry”.

That is not what it is.


We have international conventions that we are bound to obey as a Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, number one.

Number two, the example of putting up clean energy windmills in the Atlantic sounds great, but that is under the Paris accord clean energy arrangements, which is again international law.
And then, when you actually filter what Assemblyman has said, the power purchase arrangements and feed-in tariffs and T&TEC administration, these are aspects shared between Trinidad and Tobago.

So I want to caution against discounting very serious matters in a very quick pass sort of way.

We are not going to do justice.

Real autonomy means having autonomy to do things which we ought to do and which will be prudent for all of us.
So saying, put in the Constitution the waters of Tobago by reference to miles on the record as a matter of international law, we will be giving up a massive amount of economic potential on an idea without paying attention to the details.

So I want to be very cautious about using simple examples for complicated matters.

We have to be sure that what we are doing is doing the right thing with the best interest.

What I am saying about the Shipping Bill is that this is no small matter.
This is a very large matter.

Look at the attention it occupied in the Brexit discussion.

It was not, “Well yeah, we are all fishing.” It was, what are the ramifications to the economic outturn of the European Union versus the United Kingdom and Ireland, when you looked at them seeing the—not Northern Ireland—into the European UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 69 2021.04.30 Union.
So these are not simple matters to be easily put aside by a label of saying, “Well, it is just that.” That is just the final point I wanted to make.

I believe member Dillon-Remy has been trying to make a point.

Madam Chairman: Member Dillon-Remy, please.

Dr. Dillon-Remy: Thank you, Madam Chair.


I just wanted to ask whether we can take Assemblyman Augustine’s point about the ability for Tobago to do what is required for Tobago’s development, as it relates to Tobago’s—as he said, we are surrounded by seas or Tobago’s lifeline, et cetera, and once that is taken into consideration, then whatever—in other words, as he said also, the discussion can go on as to what is necessary to find a meaningful middle ground.
I think that should be taken because it is so important.

Ms. Cudjoe: Chairman?

Madam Chairman: Member Dillon-Remy, I did say that.

Dr. Dillon-Remy: Okay.

Madam Chairman: That we would take that point, because I think it is important for Tobagonians to get the understanding and the feeling that this is what we are attempting to do.
Let me just make the other point that we have stated in Schedule four—the Fourth Schedule, that the manufacture and supply of electricity is one of the areas over which the Tobago island legislature will have legislative and exclusive law-making powers.

So that issue of windmills and so on for clean energy, that certainly falls under the manufacture and supply of electricity.

So we have said, and I have said on behalf of the Committee, that that will be taken on board.
Member Cudjoe, you wanted to say something?

Ms. Cudjoe: Chairman, I just wanted to support what Sen. Dillon-Remy was UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 70 2021.04.30 saying and to add that it should not just be marine parks or this marine electricity that you are talking about.

There may be other marine-related economic activity that has to be captured here.
So, again, I want to press that this needs to be explored, ventilated and shared so we could come to an acceptable point.

Madam Chairman: Yes, as I said, this is a Committee that will take those things on board and we will make sure that we do what is best for us to move this process forward.

If none of the Committee members has anything else to say, I think Assemblyman Faith Israel was going to make a point at this point.

[Laughter] This is her opportunity to intervene.


Mr. Augustine: It means we will enter and speak to section 11(1)(b), that is on page 6, and we will then go back to the lawmaking powers in the Fourth Schedule versus the executive administrative powers in the Fifth Schedule, subsequent to that.

So over to Dr.

Faith B. Yisrael.

Dr. Yisrael: Thank you, Assemblyman.

Madam Chairman: Dr. Yisrael, you have the floor.

Dr. Yisrael: Thank you, Assemblyman Farley, thank you to the Committee, thanks to the Chair.
I think I would like to take this opportunity to—in addition—to speak about that specific issue, which is Cabinet control in circumstances when we have emergency and unforeseen circumstances, because we are kind of running into almost close to the three o’clock hour.

I would like to lump in that category, there is a general concern of the people of Tobago that we have Cabinet control in areas where we should not have Cabinet control.
This is one of those areas where we seem to have Cabinet control in areas where we have— in situations where we have emergencies and unforeseen circumstances, and we do not have a clear definition of what entails an emergency or what really entails an unforeseen circumstance.

It seems like the definition of UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 71 2021.04.30 those things may be at the whims and/or fancy of the Cabinet, and we would then just have to comply with the situation in that circumstance.

And let me throw— Madam Chairman: That is a good point.

That is a good point.

Thank you very much.

We will take that on board.


Dr. Yisrael: May I also throw in two other areas where Cabinet control is simply not acceptable to the people of Tobago, and those areas include the mediation committee and the fiscal review commission.

Let me give you an example.

For both of those we have the situation where the Chair of the committee is going to be a Member of the Cabinet.

Those two committees both have five individuals.


Three of those individuals will come from the Cabinet and two of those individuals would come from the Tobago House of Assembly.

Specifically, as it relates to the mediation committee, we understand that the only time we may actually get to mediation—and we are seeing the situation right now even with the 6:6 situation in Tobago, that to need mediation, it means that the two parties are not able to come to an agreement among themselves.
Therefore, in the old Tobago House of Assembly, there was a Dispute Resolution Commission that was, in essence, an independent entity that had individuals who were agreed upon by both parties, but did not include the both parties themselves.

So we are recommending that that Mediation Committee look more closely like what was in the Dispute Resolution Committee, and not be headed and outnumbered by the Cabinet.
A similar thing needs to be looked at for the fiscal review commission because if we are looking at a situation where the Cabinet has three of the five members, and the Cabinet is in control, as in Chair those committees, then we are automatically seeing where it is not equitable distribution.

It is not equitable control within the committees, so we need to review the composition of both of UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 72 2021.04.30 those committees, that committee and commission respectively.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Thank you.

We will do that.

Thank you very much.

Assemblyman Augustine, you have any more interventions?

Thank you very much, Assemblyman Yisrael.

Mr. Augustine: Then we want to move specifically to the areas listed under the Fourth Schedule versus the Fifth Schedule, and we will do a juxtaposition with the Act 40 of 1996 Fifth Schedule which had 33 items listed there.
We note even from the discussions this morning the differentiation between Schedule four which gives authority to make laws for versus Schedule five which gives administrative authority for and the differences in those, and Assemblyman Ian Pollard from Providence/Mason Hall/Moriah will speak to these issues now.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Assemblyman Pollard, you have the floor.

Assemblyman Pollard, you have the floor.

Mr. Pollard: Good afternoon, Madam Chair— Madam Chairman: Good afternoon.
Mr. Pollard:—and to the entire Committee and to the rest of Tobago watching on.

Now, I took note of items under the Fifth Schedule in Act 40 of 1996, where there were 33 items listed that the Tobago House of Assembly had purview of.
And I have seen that it has been separated into the Fourth and Fifth Schedule, but most noteworthy that has been removed or maybe the AG could explain, because I could remember distinctly in 2015, first of meeting here in Mason Hall about, one, the land regularization for Tobagonians, that will be a thing of the past.

And secondly, I am seeing here in the Fifth Schedule of the Act 40 of 1996 state lands was under the purview of the Tobago House of Assembly.
And under the Fifth Schedule of this new Bill, this draft administration Bill, we are seeing lands and building—other than lands and buildings vested in the State.

With a little UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 73 2021.04.30 bit—I will need a little bit of clarity.

Is it that the state land has been removed from under the Tobago House of Assembly to the central government because it is clearly not identified as it was in Act 40 of 1996?
And there are many other items that are not seen there such as telecommunication, Customs and Excise.

So is it that—it is a good thing that this is a draft that we have discussions about it.

So could the AG clarify the points of why these items have been removed from under Act 40 of 1996 of this present draft Bill?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, may I?

Madam Chairman: Go ahead please.


Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, what would be very useful, well it was not the AG that had advised on the Fifth Schedule at all, it is the work of the Committee.
So what would be extremely useful is if that list of what is observed as inconsistencies between the Fifth Schedule and the THA’s Act was provided to us, and I think that the Committee should look at those matters certainly so that we can make sure that we are in harmony with, at the very least, what we had in the THA Act versus what the proposed Bill makes.

Is that agreeable?

Madam Chairman: Yes.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you.


Mr. Augustine: Madam Chair, I believe Assemblyman Zorisha Hackett wants to come in at this juncture to— Madam Chairman: So you will send— Mr. Augustine:—speak additionally.

Madam Chairman: Sorry.

Just to reiterate what the AG said, you will send the list— you can send the list to the Committee or are you saying that you are using the list that is in the current THA Act.

That is what you are saying?

Mr. Pollard: For you—just in, Madam Chair.


UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 74 Madam Chairman: I am asking.

The list that is now— Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair— Madam Chairman: Yes.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Sorry.

I am asking specifically.

Madam Chairman: I think I did not hear.


2021.04.30 Mr. Al-Rawi: I am asking specifically if Assemblyman Pollard could kindly send us the list of his observed inconsistencies so that we have the opportunity to check it carefully so that we could make sure that we are proper and whole with what was there, and if there are any differences, that we can provide an explanation in respect of it.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

So just to repeat, that you are asking Assemblyman Pollard to send the list of inconsistencies.
Mr. Al-Rawi: So, Madam Chair, whatever his observations are, he was reading from a list.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Al-Rawi: That he has said, we have inconsistencies.

I want to make sure that we are faithful to his observations.

So if he provides us with the material that he has, we can then see exactly what it is he is saying— Madam Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Al-Rawi:—and we can hear it as a Committee.

Madam Chairman: All right.

Thanks very much.


Mr. Pollard: Madam Chair, to the AG, I was reading from the Act 40 of 1996, so it is all listed inside there.

Madam Chairman: All right.

Well we have it.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Augustine: But, Madam Chair, I know Assemblyman Hackett wants to come in to develop what Pollard has been raising some more.

But for us in Tobago we UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 75 2021.04.30 feel areas like environment, forestry that all of those should remain under the remit of the THA.

And we will send you a detailed listing in terms of, as the AG suggested, of how we believe they should be proportioned between the Fourth Schedule and the Fifth Schedule in the new proposed Bill.
But I would want Ms. Hackett to come in and expand some more on why we are having difficulties with the limitations set out within the Fourth Schedule notwithstanding the fact that use and many others see that as some gains over what we have had.

So maybe Ms. Hackett can come in at this time.

Madam Chairman: Certainly, Ms. Hackett.

Assemblyman Hackett, you have the floor.

Ms. Hackett: Good afternoon all.

Are you all hearing me?

Madam Chairman: Yes, we are.

Ms. Hackett: All right.


So please permit me a moment to begin by reminding all that historically Tobago was the constitutionally superior island.

As the annals history would show, Tobago held its inaugural session and its earlier evolution of the Tobago House of Assembly all the way back in 1768, at which point Trinidad was still a Spanish colony.
It would be a further 28 years before Trinidad finally became under British control whereupon it was treated as a conquered colony and governed under Crown Colony rule.

As we are all aware, the downgrading of this island’s constitutional status at the end of the 19th Century was closely linked to a downturn in its economic fortunes creating our current constitutional subordination, as I like to call it, to Trinidad.
And so in this 137 years since 1884, Tobago has been constantly seeking self-determination and freedoms from economic development and representative government.

And since 1889 within the framework of the nation states of Trinidad and Tobago, Tobago has been searching for equality of status and avoidance of UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 76 economic dependence on Trinidad.
2021.04.30 And these Bills that we have in front of us, Madam Chair, in my opinion are a far cry as they deny the quest and to some extent, our right to determine in Tobago our political, economic, social and cultural development, and further reinforces our economic dependence on Trinidad by denying us the adequate access to development opportunity.

So right now let me just look at the comparisons between fourth and fifth.

All right.

The Bill assigns the THA a prescribed schedule of responsibilities.
Fourth Schedule lawmaking and Fifth Schedule administrative responsibilities for laws made by Trinidad.

All reserved powers are left to Trinidad and disguised to me as Trinidad and Tobago.

A critical observation that is relevant here is that the Fifth Schedule leaves all the policy and lawmaking responsibilities to key areas as we would have already established and pushed for economic, social and institutional development and for which it must be able to make policy and law.
And I can state them, education, health, tourism, sports, planning and development, as well as works and infrastructure.

In my opinion this is the opposite of what is required, and Tobago must prescribe what it wants a central government to do to facilitate this development.

Thus it is the central government that should be assigned the prescribed responsibilities.

Can I have some clarification here please?

Mr. de Freitas: Madam Chair, can I just ask a question?

Madam Chairman: Certainly.


Mr. de Freitas: To Ms. Hackett, Assemblywoman Hackett— Ms. Hackett: Yes, Sir.

Mr. de Freitas:—who makes up the central government?

Ms. Hackett: Members of constituencies.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 77 Mr. de Freitas: Is Tobago included in that?

Ms. Hackett: Yes, Sir.

But what is the proportion, Sir?

2021.04.30 Mr. de Freitas: Right.


So what I am saying is that, I keep hearing references to central government, Parliament as though Trinidad and Tobago or the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago, central government is just Trinidad.

It is not.

There is a unitary State of Trinidad and Tobago, regardless of the proportion, yes, we understand that could be discussed at a later date, but it has nothing to do with the Bills.
Trinidad and Tobago by way of its Parliament has representation on behalf of Tobago, same thing with the central government.

So when you are saying, the central government cannot do this and cannot do that, what you are actually saying is that, the representation of Tobago has been— Ms. Hackett: I did not say central government cannot do though.

I think you misquoted me there but continue.

Mr. de Freitas: No.

Go ahead.

Go ahead, you were saying.

Ms. Hackett: No.

Continue.

Mr. de Freitas: No.


Because that is the general gist of what I am hearing.

Let me not speak for anybody else.

In that, when you refer to central government, you are referring to only Trinidad, and that is not the case.

Tobago is also part of that.


Mr. Augustine: Madam Chair, if I may do an interjection here and point out that culturally and based on our experience the majority of Tobagonians, the vast majority of Tobagonians view what happens at the central government as Trinidad and not as Trinidad and Tobago.

So let us not pretend at this session that Tobagonians view the central government any different.

And that is so based on our experiences.


When we take, for example— Madam Chairman: Member, Assemblyman, I sorry that that is how you think the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 78 2021.04.30 feeling is, but that is not the fact.

The thing is that the central government is the Government of Trinidad and Tobago.

The Parliament similarly is the Parliament of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

The Judiciary is the Judiciary of Trinidad and Tobago.
Those are the three arms of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago, and all are for the governance of Trinidad and Tobago under the Constitution.

What we are trying to do is ensure that Tobago gets the level of autonomy that they are in search of for many years and this is what we are trying to discuss.

I am sorry if there are those feelings but the reality is that central government is for the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
And what the legislation, both pieces are attempting to do is to ensure that we carve out for Tobago even more autonomy than they have now.

Mr. Augustine: Well, Madam Chair, if you had allowed me to finish I would have shown where the reality of how governance has been practised historically in this country has not always led Tobagonians to that feeling of comfort that you would hope that we will have from seeing this Bill.
And it is a matter of comfort and trust, and that is just the reality and that is not going to change just so.

That will require some work and it will require that we craft the legislation in such a way to bring the kind comfort that is required.
And that is why we have said that we will send to you that list in terms of Fourth versus Fifth Schedule and how we believe based on our consultations with the people we represent in Tobago, how we feel that should be proportioned, and the Committee can look at that subsequently.

Madam Chairman: We will look forward to receiving that.

Mr. Cummings: Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

Member Cummings.

Mr. Cummings: Thank you, Madam Chair.


Can I also ask Assemblyman Augustine, if in submitting that list in relation to the Fourth and Fifth Schedules UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 79 2021.04.30 whether that matter concerning the definition of Tobago which occupied so much of our time and which a couple members may have indicated that we should find a way to, you know, agree on some middle ground.
Whether you will want to also submit your suggestions in that regard in terms of the economic benefits to Tobago that you outlined, and how the definition, as you have suggested, would work towards that goal.

If you would submit that?
Mr. Augustine: Most definitely we will be happy to make that submission, because we think it is critical if one of the stated goals in the actual legislation is that you could allow for Tobago to grow in terms of the economy, culturally, socially and so on, then it is paramount that the legislation allows for that to actually happen, and we believe that that definition of Tobago and how it is pitched in the law will either allow for that to happen or will stymie the very sustainable growth that we seek.
Madam Chairman, I want to bring in at this juncture Assemblyman Pastor Terrance Baynes, and he has a few questions to ask.

And additionally, we have some general issues that we will raise before we conclude.
We are mindful that we did start a bit late, 1.25 so we started 25 minutes late, and I do not know if we would be rushed to close notwithstanding the late start, but we will appreciate if, for the very least, we are allowed a few more minutes beyond the 3.00 p.m. deadline so that we can do the wrap up on some of the general issues to be brought before the Committee.

Madam Chairman: Before you do that, I remember you had made your point for was with regard to parliamentary oversight.
Could you expand a bit on that please?

Because we would like to hear a little more about that.

Mr. Augustine: Sure.

And I will do that before Pastor Baynes comes in.

In the legislation as is being proposed, we have oversight by way of House committees, UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 80 2021.04.30 and we have a structure being proposed whereby, one, there is no limit on how large the Executive can be.
So for all intents and purpose, out of the entire House we could have literally 16 members of an executive because there is no limit within the actual law that is there.

It means then that the remaining members that are present within the House are to help form out and lead on those House committees.

That number is decreased significantly.

We also have been wondering—so that is one area, aspect in terms of oversight.
The second aspect is that, we have been wondering what was proposed was a bicameral system and we have moved to unicameral system.

That is all well and good.

Did the Committee consider at any point de-linking the House from the Executive and having a system of separation of powers to create the kind of robust oversight and accountability that we believe Tobago wants that might be a deviation from the Westminster model and a deviation from what we know, but will create that kind of oversight?
Because the idea behind having the dual Houses, what was sent down was called the people’s house, and the idea behind the people’s house was to have a secondary house with the role of taking up most of those oversight functions in a much more robust manner than just having House committees.

So that is the second thing.

And the third area is, was there any consideration given to the issue of how we could involve e-governance in all of this, so that will maximize people participation within the democracy.
I have been to jurisdictions within the Commonwealth where they have systems in place where people can petition their government or people can force their Parliament to discuss certain issues and Bills and answer questions.

And I feel like if we having the opportunity to create something new for Tobago, then if that opportunity to do it in such a manner that it allows for the kind of far-reaching and robust oversight and active participation UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 81 2021.04.30 from as wide a populace as possible, so that we can begin, if it were, an example for the rest of the country to follow.

Okay.

We indicated that those were not the instructions that came to this Joint Select Committee from the Bill that was sent to the Cabinet.
In addition to that, there is nothing that would prevent when this system has been established, there is nothing that will prevent the Legislature using the Government's policy from doing that, putting an e-government system, putting in all those systems that you may be talking about.

It does not mean that all of those specifics have to be within the Constitution (Amdt.)

or have to be in Tobago island government Bills that will be passed by the Parliament.
But it will not preclude that from happening thereafter.

Mr. Augustine: However, if it is not codified in law, it means that it is up to the whims and fancies in of whoever is in charge of the Executive.

Madam Chairman: Member.

Mr. de Freitas: Madam Chair, let me just— Madam Chairman: Remember what happens with the Fourth and Fifth Schedules.

With the Fourth Schedule a law of that nature could be made by the Tobago Legislature.
Remember the Tobago Legislature will have lawmaking power over the island of Tobago.

So if that is something that needs to be done, you know, that would be a policy decision and it could be done depending on how you want something to proceed.

Mr. Augustine: But, Madam Chair, I am not sure— Madam Chairman: Member de Freitas, you wanted to say something?

Mr. de Freitas: Yes, Madam Chair.

Sorry, Assemblyman Augustine.

It is just to add to what Madam Chair is saying.


But subsequent to the build out of the proposed Tobago House of Assembly Legislature, Standing Orders of the Legislature would need to be done, and within those Standing Orders you can UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 82 2021.04.30 incorporate provisions amongst the Assemblymen obviously, Assemblymen and Assemblywomen, provisions that allow for more participatory democracy.
One way of doing that is, for example, what we have in the national Parliament which is the Private Members’ Day which essentially is individuals who do not hold Executive positions.

So in the context of the Tobago Legislature as proposed, you would have the independent councillors and any—the Opposition Members obviously and any other members who do not hold a portfolio.
It is through lobbying of those individuals that members of the public could have a particular topic raised in the Assembly Legislature that would come up on that Private Members’ Day for discussion.

I am not saying you have to follow that exactly.

What I am really saying is that, as you develop your Standing Orders you can create, you know, something within there that allows for more participatory democracy by the public in relation to that.
In relation to your statements with the Joint Select Committees, the Executive members do not limit how the Joint Select Committees work, because you could have Executive members on Joint Select Committees.

I think what you are referring to more is how these things, how these Joint Select Committees are chaired.
In the national Parliament context we have Independent Senators that chair certain Committees, we have Opposition members and we have it in this Bill that are going to be chairing the PAC and the PA(E)C because that is the oversight mechanism that is put in there.
And then depending on how the Legislature sets up itself, you would have other Joint Select Committees as is needed in relation to have the proper oversight of the Executive and, of course, the chairmanship of those will come into question at that point in time.

But the fact is, 26 members of that total Legislature, you can set up a Joint Select Committee as long—the only UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 83 2021.04.30 stipulation is that it mimics the ratio within the Legislature itself in terms of the Committee.

But the number of people on the Committee could be adjusted.

So whereas in the national Parliament you may have nine on a Committee or more, in the Tobago context and the 26 members that you have in your Assembly Legislature, you may end up with five or you may end up with six or seven.
That is something for the Assemblymen and women to really work out, as long as the ratio of the majority to minority to independent is kept on the Joint Select Committee.

So it is really not affected by the number of Executive members that are eventually set up.

Mr. Augustine: Two questions to you, through the Chair.

One, as you speak the notion of this thing evolves comes to mind.

And very often with any piece of legislation there comes a time when the thing evolves.
One of my fears about this whole process is what we codify into law in Trinidad as opposed to in Tobago.

Because if you look at the Fourth Schedule, we do not have powers to necessarily change anything; not in the Constitution Bill I am talking, but the Tobago Bill that will not be a Constitution, no measured.

We do not have any authority to deviate from that or to change that or to have that evolve.
It means that any time there is a need for a change, it means just as in the case now with Act 40 of 1996, we have to return to the Parliament in Trinidad and hope that the national Parliament, the one that we are insisting is for both Trinidad and Tobago will take it up as a matter of priority.

So there is no room for us to do some of that evolution—and I am not talking about evolution along the lines of changing the Constitution which naturally will require special majority at the national Parliament.
We are talking about on the other document, the Tobago Bill.

Let us say Tobago evolves and there is a need to make some changes there.

It means that we must now revert to Trinidad to have it done.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 84 2021.04.30 And a question came to mind as you spoke is about whether or not it was— Madam Chairman: Assemblyman, I think we understand that point.

Do you have a suggestion?


Or will you send us a suggestion in relation to, specifically to that issue?

Mr. Augustine: Well yes— Madam Chairman: Do you have a suggestion now?

Or would you want to send a suggestion to the Committee in writing?
Mr. Augustine: Well, I will send it in writing, but I could briefly say the gist of it which is, that perhaps what the national Parliament should be doing at this stage is to really and truly afford on Tobago certain rights within the framework of autonomy and allow us in Tobago to come, meet as an Assembly and build out the structure of the governance that we want and decide whether or not we want to have a House with so many appointed members, whether we want a House with only elected members.
I think that should be the purview of the THA and not the national Parliament saying to us in Tobago, this is what you must have but I will send— Madam Chairman: Let me clarify that.

In order for us to move from one stage to the next, it is the Parliament of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago that has to make this law.

It is the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago that has to make the change to the Constitution, and the Tobago island government Bill has to become an Act.
That is the only mechanism that we have that can bring us to the point where you get the autonomy.

So it cannot be as you have said.

We have to enact the legislation, and thereafter depending on how the legislation works and how the Constitution amendment evolves over time of working the autonomy, there may be changes that need to be made.

But in the meantime, whilst we are having this discussion and whilst we are having these consultations, we will UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 85 2021.04.30 prepare as best we can the legislation in such a way as to reflect what the consultations have led us to, and what the discussions amongst the members of the Joint Select Committee, and with expert opinion, have bought us to, and we will take the both pieces of legislation to the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago for debate and then for enactment once it is passed.

But the building out and so on, that can only really be done when you work the legislation.
I will be looking— Mr. Augustine: Well, I will be— Madam Chairman: I will be looking— Mr. Augustine: I feel that you may have slightly misunderstood what pitched, so what I will do is that I will send in writing the details of what I am pitching, which will reflect in terms of how the Bills that you are putting before the Parliament how they should be framed that will allow for an autonomous Tobago to be able to evolve naturally subsequently.
So, I will send in greater detail so that there would not be any misunderstanding.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Augustine: Hear what I am saying next, because I will want Pastor Terrance Baynes to come in before I give the closing.

Madam Chairman: You know, Pastor Baynes, I can really only give you five minutes and then I have to go back to Assemblyman Augustine to do the closing.

Pastor Baynes: That is fine.


Madam Chairman: Because, of course, we will have subsequent conversations, but for today’s sessions this is what I can offer.

Pastor Baynes: Noted.

Good afternoon, Madam Chair, and good afternoon to the Committee and to all viewers.

I really just have a question that may appear to be very simplistic but really need some clarity in my mind.

In the opening statement of the document where it says that: UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 86 2021.04.30 “The draft Bill confirms the recognition of the equality of status between the Island of Tobago and the Island of Trinidad within the unitary State of Trinidad and Tobago.” Is there a difference in the interpretation of the word “equality” in the context of Trinidad and Tobago as against Trinidad and Tobago the sovereign unitary state?
Madam Chairman: We spoke about that this morning, Pastor Baynes, and I think I understand that your team—part of your team if not the entire team was on with us and we have dealt with that.

Is there any other issue that you would like to raise?

Assemblyman Augustine, would you like to raise your closing—bring your closing remarks now?

Mr. Augustine: Sure I would.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.


Mr. Augustine: I want to close by saying thank you for this opportunity to speak to members of the Joint Select Committee.

I want to make it public that we will be holding our own consultations with the people we represent on the island because we need their views.

I also want to make it clear that we are bounded by their views, and we will find it our duty to defend and push for their views.
As I said at the start, I feel as if these pieces of legislation that are supposed to allow Tobago to build out on its own next door neighbouring, is somehow still forcing us to remain underneath, downstairs.

And the Bills as they are right now cannot get unwavering support from our side.

There will be need for changes, and we will send you in writing those changes that we propose, and as I indicated, those changes will be reflective of the feelings of the people we do represent.
Thank you for your work, and I want all of Trinidad to know that for us in Tobago, us wanting autonomy, is not us saying that we do not like you or we do not want you in our business.

What we are saying is we simply want the right to UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 87 2021.04.30 manage our own business in a way that you too can be proud so that we can be dignified contributors to the country that is Trinidad and Tobago, and we have always been dignified contributors, and now what we are demanding is that we be recognized as such through this piece of legislation.

Thank you all again and wish you all the very best.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Assemblyman Augustine and your team.
Let me just reiterate that what we had before us was a particular mandate that came from the forum of political parties, that came as a Bill, that came to the Cabinet, and that was sent to the Parliament in 2018.

So we had a certain mandate and certain parameters within which we had to work.

So thank you very much for your participation, and we look forward to getting your submissions in writing.

Thank you.

We will have a five-minute break now and then we will resume at 3.15.

Meeting suspended.
Meeting suspended.

Meeting resumed.

Madam Chairman: Good afternoon again ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon in particular to the listening and viewing public of Trinidad and Tobago and Tobago and Trinidad.

Welcome back to these consultations on the Tobago Self Government Bill and the Tobago Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill.
Bill.

We are here with you again, continuing our consultations on these two pieces of legislation and I would like to start by asking members of the Committee to introduce themselves once more.

And I am starting with the members in Trinidad.

[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: Okay.

Thank you very much for that.

We also have members, Dr. Varma Deyalsingh and Mr. Dinesh Rambally.

They cannot be with us at this time but they have been here all day until now.

Thank you very much.


And now I UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 88 2021.04.30 would ask the stakeholders who are with us to introduce themselves.

Thank you.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Pleasant good afternoon.

Are you hearing us loud and clear?

Madam Chairman: Yes, we are.

Thank you.

[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: And also in— Madam Chairman: There are other people I think?
[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Assemblyman Davidson-Celestine.

And I will invite you now to make your opening remarks, please.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Thank you very much for the opportunity to give our presentation to the Joint Select Committee in what we consider a very important exercise.

Of course, you would know Tobagonians have been fighting for self- determination.

We have been fighting for an enhanced arrangement between Trinidad and Tobago for some time.
So I want to use this opportunity to commend the Committee for its efforts thus far and we are of the view that the Parliament is of course fulfilling its obligation and its mandate which is that of attempting to ensure that the people of Tobago achieve self- determination.

And so we are hoping that you would help us in the exercise of promoting or supporting and of course achieving those objectives that we have been fighting for, for the longest while now.
I just want to say at the outset that we are not here to bash in anyway, we are not here to criticize.

Of course we are here to have a constructive criticism.

We are also not here to seek perfection in the Bill and even in the discussions, but we are of the view that there are merits of the Bill that we endorse but at the same time we UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 89 2021.04.30 are equally concerned that there are some fundamentals that we are not prepared to negotiate on.

And so those positions we are going to articulate very forcefully in this particular exercise and we do hope that those expressions be taken on board.

We are very clear that from this end that we are not asking for independents nor are we asking for cessation in this particular exercise.
We are of the view that we have gone pass any discussion having to do with a federal system for the island.

As a matter of fact, all of us, every Tobagonian on this island, we have been clamouring for a relationship with Trinidad which can give us the assurance that we will have equality of status, which can give us the assurance that we can have greater administrative and even responsibilities.
Of course in that arrangement we have been asking for greater fiscal independence and of course equal opportunities for us here in Tobago when compared to the opportunities that exist in our sister isle Trinidad.
And so as we put forward our expressions, as we put forward our considerations, we are saying that we also want to take into consideration that those desires that we have should not in any way be affected by any national parties and politics which of course can stymie our growth and even our progress.
And so in that vein whatever is captured in this Bill must not only achieve the fundamental tenets but it must be clearly articulated, it must be unambiguous and of course our desires must be provided for in the Constitution which is what we have been talking about.
And so in this particular exercise I am going to again introduce the legal counsel and consultant who have brought us to this stage, from the Tobago House of Assembly to share with you her thoughts and then I will come back to indicate areas where we have our discomfort, as well as Kwesi who has been with the Committee making presentations for some time now.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 90 2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: Ms. Melville.
Thank you very much, Assemblyman Davidson-Celestine.

Ms. Melville.

Ms. Melville: Good afternoon, Chairperson of the Committee, members of the Committee, the audience, listening and viewing.

Are you seeing Chairperson?

I am not sure if I am within the frame.

Madam Chairman: Ms. Melville, you can continue.

Ms. Melville: Chairperson, we are grateful that the Joint Select Committee has reached at this point.

In fact as—the issue is always contextual, I think that in this regard we are on the cusp.
And at this point in time we in Tobago and in Trinidad and Tobago at large are called upon to carefully consider the two Bills which are available to us from the Joint Select Committee.

Madam Chairman: Can I just indicate that we are not seeing Ms. Melville.

So perhaps you can switch with her, please.

Ms. Melville: Chairperson, am I more visible to you?

At this point in time, Chairperson, if I may continue, having looked at the Bills, the Constitution (Amdt.)
Bill, 2020, as well as the Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021, I must say that they are progressive when compared to the existing legal framework however, at variance with what would have been submitted and so in that regard there are some limitations.

So having listened to the Committee this morning I would just like to raise a few issues.

This morning Mr. Hochoy Charles would have mentioned that while the issue of equally was listed in the Bill the reality of the draft legislation is quite different.
Indeed, Madam Chairperson, arriving at the juncture when were able to submit a draft Bill to the Parliament was not an easy road.

It involved many decades of consultation, research and work by different groups in Tobago, as well as in Trinidad.

If we are to look at it from the written legal perspective starting in UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 91 2021.04.30 1977 when the hon.
ANR Robinson would have moved the Motion in Parliament there has been a lot of research from since then.

We had 1980 Act of Parliament which was followed by the present Tobago House of Assembly Act which we are now governed under, as well as the constitutional amendment.

However, following that, between 1996 and 2013 there were several initiatives.

The Tobago House of Assembly moved a resolution in 2005 regarding the issue.
There was also the Clarke Draft Constitution in 2006 which set out a working document on constitutional reform in 2009 and a critical element in that was the Tobago constitutional question.

The Dumas team was established, there was also the Tobago Forum for Consensus on the Constitution which was chaired by Mr. Christo Gift, eminent attorney-at-law, Senior Counsel in Tobago.
There was the Prince Committee headed by the late John Prince which was convened in 2007, and which worked assiduously through the length and breadth of Tobago ending with the final proposals to the THA in September 2011.

In 2012 the People’s Partnership Government would have laid before the Parliament a green paper and at the same time while the green paper was sent out for public consultation there was a THA Commission established in 2012.
That Commission was led by eminent Tobagonians such as: Mr. Allan Richards, Dr. Verne Alleyne, Mrs. Deborah Moore-Miggins, Mr. Gilbert Peterson, Senior Counsel and there was a report.
That was the report which Mr. Hochoy Charles would have referred to this morning as following that report there was a motion moved at the Signal Hill Secondary School and that motion would have dealt with certain non-negotiables which Tobagonian felt must be included in the legislative framework to advance development of Tobago.

In 2013 the Forum of Political Parties was convened.
And upon the convening of that forum—in fact it was that forum which would have also laid the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 92 2021.04.30 Commission Report at Signal Hill in 2014.

So there were several initiatives ongoing at the same time: the Green Paper consultations, as well as that—the work of the Forum of Political Parties.
Madam Chairperson, people through the length and breadth of Tobago would have made contributions which were all condensed in the Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self Government) Bill, 2016, which was passed in the Tobago House of Assembly, a Bill which I know the hon.

Attorney General would reiterate was ultra vires, but it was a Bill which established the principles and which the Tobago people felt were non-negotiable in terms of constitutional amendment for Tobago.
This Bill was later sent back to Cabinet in 2018 following another consultative process and it was that Bill which I believe would have been taken to the Joint Select Committee for consideration.

By the time the Bill reached the Joint Select Committee, however, there were certain amendments.

So in speaking at this point in time regarding the Bill I will speak to the variants between the Bills submitted from Tobago in 2016 and 2018 and the present Bills which are before us.
Indeed the Bills which the Joint Select Committee have proposed— Madam Chairman: Are you hearing me?

Okay.

What we would like for this consultation is if you could take us to the concerns that you have in the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill and the concerns that you may have in the Tobago Island Government Bill.

That is what we are going to be discussing, not the comparison necessarily between the 2018 Bill and this Bill.
What we need are, what are the concerns that you have with regard to the two Bills that are before us, the two drafts that are before us for discussion.

Ms. Melville: Good afternoon, Madam Chair.

Are you hearing me, Madam Chair?

Madam Chairman: I am.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 93 2021.04.30 Ms. Melville: Thank you.
Madam Chair, you mentioned the points of concern but I must also speak to a few areas of commendation, because there are positives in the redrafted legislation.

In terms of the structure, the governance structure, particularly the legislature which is proposed, it is unicameral, but it is broad enough to allow for oversight and, with the functioning of established committees, would be able to go a long way towards advancing governance in Tobago.
However, Madam Chair, there are some areas that while they have been, they are in tandem with the desire of the people of Tobago that might have further room for—I do not want to use the word “improvement”, but there are certain areas which I believe that can be sharpened.

I do not know if the political leader would like to go through the difference or should I continue.

Madam Chairman: Go ahead, go ahead Ms. Melville.

Ms. Melville: Very well.


One of the issues for consideration is the definition of Tobago.

Having looked at the definition which is stated of page 3 of the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill I am concerned that it does not have a level of specificity.

By that I mean there are no archipelagic baselines which would define the internal waters between Trinidad and Tobago because there are no baselines which encircle Tobago except the outer limits that go around St. Giles Island, Little Tobago.
But in the southern part of the island it is unclear what the baseline will be that will delineate the internal waters between Trinidad and Tobago, because that area is internal waters.

And as I mention this, Madam Chair, I am also not—it is not clear, we do know the ratio of land to water which exists in defining Trinidad and Tobago as an archipelagic state, but looking at this definition I am unable to understand even where Buccoo Reef, for example, would fall.
So I do not know, I believe that that needs to be reviewed unless I can be corrected.

The issue of equality of status.

The present Act also, Madam Chair, the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 94 2021.04.30 Tobago House of Assembly Act, while it is an Act and not in the Constitution as this definition is intended to be, also gives the Tobago House of Assembly policy- making over a larger area of the water than obtains in this definition.
So that again is a cause for concern because under the Tobago House of Assembly Act the Tobago House of Assembly can have policy making functions subject of course to Cabinet up to six nautical miles.

Regarding the issue of equality of status, as is mentioned in section 5 of the Bill, Mr. Hochoy Charles would have spoken to that and we from Tobago would have provided a statement which we are happy it is included in the Preamble to the Constitution as well as in section 1 of the Constitution.
However there is a statement which is not there, which is that the designation of ward would no longer apply to Tobago.

Madam Chair, we are mindful of the— Madam Chairman: That is out completely, that is out completely.

We have not even put it, we have not even referred to it, we have not repeated it.

That is out completely.

Ms. Melville: Yes, Madam Chair.

Is there a reason for that?


Madam Chairman: We took it out because those were our instructions that there was no need for us to refer to Tobago as the island ward.
There was no need for us to say that, that we are removing that statement, because we were doing it in a positive way by not stating it at all Ms. Melville: Madam Chair, if I may, at present our legal documents have that construct because the Trinidad and Tobago Act of 1887, we are aware there is a savings law provision in the Constitution, section 6, and the Trinidad and Tobago Act of 1887 provided for Order in Council to be made and the Order in Council of 1899 gave Tobago that designation as a ward of the colony of Trinidad and Tobago.
That was never repealed as far as I am aware and up to today our legal UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 95 2021.04.30 documents, if we are called upon to write that, this parcel of land is situated, therefore in the Parish of St. Paul in the ward of Tobago.

I mean, attorneys-at-law have become creative and we write the “island ward”, sometimes we leave out the word “ward”, but the legal construct is that we are an administrative ward of Trinidad and Tobago.
I can be pointed to the repeal of that Madam.

Madam Chairman: Sorry, okay.

I understand what you are saying.

So we will resolve that.

Ms. Melville: I am much obliged, Madam.

Madam, another area of concern is the parameters of the Fourth Schedule, the lawmaking function, as well as the Fifth Schedule, the policy-making function.
Within the policy making function, Madam Chair, there are areas which are omitted, which are a cause for concern, because at present in the Tobago House of Assembly Act at the Fifth Schedule these areas are there in terms of policy- making.

For instance the issue of ports and airports, the issue of state lands in Tobago they are not included here.
We note also the specific mention in terms of policy-making that the office of the premier, there is policy-making there but it excludes the Children’s Authority of Trinidad and Tobago.
Well one can be hopeful that a memorandum of understanding would be able to allow for harmony, but children are part of a family structure and our social workers who work generally in Tobago while there is a Children’s Authority they also, are often, have a role to play, because where there are referrals quite often vulnerable groups can fall between a crack in terms of vulnerability reduction.

Maybe this can be reviewed.

With regard to— Madam Chairman: We can look at that.

Ms. Melville: Yes.
Ms. Melville: Yes.

With regard to the lawmaking function in the Fourth Schedule, again, it is anticipated that certain areas might be in need of review.

Because, Madam Chair, the purpose of autonomy is to be able to reposition Tobago on a UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 96 2021.04.30 higher trajectory for development and looking at the lawmaking function the factors of production are not included there.
In fact when, and I do not want to compare to say that the Bill which was submitted is better or not, but just in terms of the consultative process the previous Bill would have indicated that the Schedule should include the areas which the Central Government would retain control over and for which the Tobago Island Government would not have lawmaking function.

However in this Bill the areas—Tobago then is given the power to make laws for a limited number of areas rather than excluding.
So it is exclusionary in definition rather than inclusive.

And at the same time the perspective is towards that orientation of autonomy.

So again maybe, I do not know if the Joint Select Committee would want to review that so that the wishes of the people of Tobago could be given greater—could be reviewed.

At this point I will rest and the political leader can speak to other areas.

Madam Chairman: Could you ensure that we get your suggestions in writing?

You can send it to the Committee, please.


Ms. Melville: Yes, Madam Chair.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Thank you very much for this submission, legal counsel.

And just to add to the queries that we have arising from the Bill as presented to us, in addition to the definition of “Tobago”, in addition to the challenges with the Fourth and Fifth Schedule, we have reason that under the rubric or under the category of fiscal independence for Tobago there are some areas that we need clarification on as well.
And when the people of Tobago looked at this aspect which we consider to be very important for us we took into consideration a number of different areas.

And those would have been the physical separation of Tobago, the isolation from the growth centres, the absence of the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 97 2021.04.30 multiplier effect of expenditure and investment in Trinidad and not felt in Tobago.
And so when those were considered we take into consideration an 80 per cent for the island.

And, of course, when we look at what is transpiring now, 20 years ago, it was determined that Tobago should have at least a minimum of 4.03 per cent but with an outer range of 6.9 per cent as would have been indicated by the Dispute Resolution Committee.
And so, in 2021, 20 years after that Act was passed and given effect in the law, we are of the opinion that considering those factors that we would have taken into consideration, that our 8 per cent which was put forward by the people of Tobago, should be considered in that regard.

And so, we ask for some clarity with regard to the rationale for the 6.8 per cent that is now included in the Bill that we are now discussing.

Madam Chairman: Member de Freitas?

Mr. de Freitas: Thank you, Madam Chairman.


Could I just ask to have that repeated?
Ms. Davidson-Celestine: We are asking for clarity, a better understanding in terms of how members of the Committee would have come up with the 6.8 per cent, taking into consideration the expressions of the people of Tobago in terms of their submission which was for an 8 per cent allocation and, of course, taking into consideration the Tobago House of Assembly Act 40 of 1996 which speaks to a lower limit of 4.03 per cent and a higher limit of 6.9 per cent and, of course, that was 20 years ago.
And now that we are in 2021, and we have this progressive desire and, of course, the need to ensure that Tobago is developed in a particular way, we ask for the rationale.

Why not 6.9 per cent, why not 8 per cent?

How did you arrive at this 6.8 per cent?

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 98 2021.04.30 Mr. de Freitas: Okay.

Thank you very much.

I have got it clear now.


So the 6.8 per cent and the rationale behind it was utilizing the very similar formula that was utilized with the Dispute Resolution Commission that came up with the range of the 4.03 per cent to 6.9 per cent.
Now, when it was settled upon 6.8 per cent, taking into account that formula, geography, population size, that type of stuff, the idea was that with 6.8 per cent being a minimum, a guarantee moving forward in relation to the Bill that is before us, that the Fiscal Review Commission, being a committee that is going to be meeting on a very regular basis with individuals on that committee who are decision makers, that being the Minister of Finance and the Secretary of Finance, that should Tobago require more on top of that 6.8 per cent, that that would be put forward coming out the Committee and then that would be taken to Parliament for approval in that regard.
So that is where the justification for the 6.8 per cent came up, but it was never to say that 6.8 per cent is all that Tobago is going to get because that is not the intention.

The intention is the understanding, as you rightly indicated, that as Tobago develops, it is going to need more and in doing so, the Fiscal Review Commission, with the make-up of the Committee and the way it is, is that another formula could be put forward later on.
So, for example, there is a sentiment that you can work out what is the true revenue generating potential of Tobago taking into account several other factors that have nothing to do with population and geography, but the Fiscal Review Commission and the make-up of it can put that forward by coming up with a better formula moving forward that would properly show exactly what Tobago needs going forward.

So you do not want a situation where 50 years from now you are still stuck at 6.8 per cent.
No, that is not the intention.

The intention is that you start with 6.8 per cent now, utilizing the same formula that has always been there, but the Fiscal UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 99 2021.04.30 Review Commission meets on a regular basis and that is key to decide what the popular formula should be moving forward, taking into account of whole host of other factors, so that there is that developed mental aspect of it in relation to Tobago.
Ms. Davidson-Celestine: Right.

Well, in that regard, we have a concern with the membership, or the composition rather, of the Fiscal Review Commission.

When one looks at the Fiscal Review Committee, it does not give weighting to the membership representing Tobago.

As a matter of fact, there are five members on that Committee.

I think three of them are representing the central government.
And so, if it is that those desires are to be adequately articulated and supported from the Tobago context, we are asking that that committee be reviewed.

And then, the question of: What exactly will the fiscal committee be reviewing?

Is it all sums above the agreed amount or is it all sums that will be allocated to the Tobago House of Assembly?
In this regard, we need clarity on that because we are of the opinion that the Fiscal Review Commission’s mandate, as in 23(4)(a), should read: To determine and recommend to Parliament all sums above are the agreed amount.

So could you please offer some clarity?

Mr. de Freitas: So it is all sums above 6.8.

Mr. Imbert: And it is not stated in the Bill as it is, so we are hoping that that can be remedied.

Mr. de Freitas: Okay.

Noted.


Ms. Davidson-Celestine: The other area of concern under fiscal independence for Tobago has to do with the composition, as I said, and the requirement that we are of the opinion that there should be technocrats on that Fiscal Review Commission UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 100 2021.04.30 and, of course, that will give us another avenue for treating with any disputes that we might have in relation to the finances to be allocated to Tobago.

And, of course, if all else fails then there should also be an arrangement where, at the policy level, there can be discussions and discussions, of course, with the Minister, the Secretary of Finance, to prepare as the case might be.
So this falls under the category of the concerns that we have expressed, in terms of the composition of the Fiscal Review Commission, the weighting, and most importantly, an arrangement where technocrats can lead the process.

And if that fails, then we call into the arrangement or the discussion, the policymakers so to speak.

Mr. de Freitas: So, Madam Chair, just to respond and, of course, we do take that into account member of the Assembly Davidson-Celestine.
Now, the idea behind the Fiscal Review Commission was that the decision makers, in relation to the finances for both Trinidad and Tobago, and Tobago, were chairing and deputizing on the Fiscal Review Commission.
And the reason for this is because it was intended to be a running conversation, greater than the situation that occurs now, whereby you have estimates being sent down to Trinidad for approval and during that process—let us say the Secretary of Finance tries to meet with the Minister of Finance and you are meeting within a limited time frame to sort of indicate at that point in time, while the budgetary process is being prepared for October, what Tobago truly needs from a financial standpoint.
The idea behind the FRC is that it is a constant conversation between those two individuals.

Now, the appointments by the Cabinet and the appointment by the Executive Council, those could be technocratic appointments.

I do not know if it is being taken that members of the Cabinet itself or members of Executive Council would be the ones that are to be appointed.

It is not my understanding that that was the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 101 2021.04.30 case.
The understanding was that you could have appointed technocrats in those particular positions that are not the deputy chair and the chair.

But when the entire committee meets, they sit down in a cordial fashion.

And because you are having that constant conversation, then Tobago, for one, has the ability to properly indicate exactly what it needs moving forward and let me say why too.
Because with the 6.8 per cent that is being put forward, and when you look at the other financial provisions in the Bill, that money that is coming at the end of the budgetary process—so once the Minister of Finance in the national Parliament indicates what the expenditure for that fiscal year is, Tobago immediately knows what 6.8 per cent of that expenditure is and that represents the money that Tobago is going to receive to do everything.
Certain Ministries will not be coming to Tobago to build anything anymore because Tobago is now responsible for all of its funds.
Once that money is received, Tobago is now responsible, by way of its Appropriation Bill that it is going to be passing in its own legislature, its own line Items that are going to the scrutinized by the legislature itself, and even after the budgetary process is completed in Tobago and it is passed, you have further oversight functions that would ensure that the money is being spent as was indicted during the budgetary process.
So the point was that the FRC was set up so that the two decision makers would be on the committee.

They would be able to, by way of the Cabinet and by way of the Executive Council, appoint other technocrats, and everybody sits down and they have that running conversation as to what else is needed to ensure that Tobago develops the way it is supposed to develop on top of the 6.8 per cent.

Mr. Des Vignes: If I may, Madam Chair?

Kwesi Des Vignes.

I take the point of the Deputy Chairman, member de Freitas.
The challenge that we see here with the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 102 2021.04.30 Fiscal Review Commission, however, whereas in principle—I do not know if you are hearing me well?

Mr. de Freitas: We are hearing you.

Go ahead.

Mr. Des Vignes: Whereas in principle, it would be great to have the decision makers meet consistently, regularly.

You still see that at the end of the process, where do we go?
Because if it is that, in the view of the Secretary of Finance, the Executive Council, Tobago is in a current position, we are trying to develop whatever we are trying to do and we are of the view that at this time we require a further 8 per cent or a further percentage, we want to get up to 7 per cent, whatever the case might be, even if representation is made up of that committee, then what?
Because it would still then be up to the commission or the Chairman of the Commission, who is the Minister of Finance, who still does prepare the budget, to still say, “Well, Tobago, you still get 6.8.” At present, there is a band 4.03 per cent to 6.9 per cent and I do not know if I may have missed a bit, but there is yet a time that we are to see where Tobago has received anywhere closer to the upper band of 6.9 per cent.
So whereas, in principle, I could understand what the Committee was proposing to be achieved, I am not sure that this vehicle, as it is set up currently, will truly achieve the wishes of the people of Tobago for that fiscal autonomy that we are speaking about.

Mr. de Freitas: Okay.

So I understand exactly what you are saying but you have to think of it like this as well.
So let us say you have a FRC committee that is fully technocratic individuals and they produce a report, it still has to go to the Minister of Finance to enact that report.

The decision, because it is Trinidad and Tobago and because the laws of Trinidad and Tobago give the Minister of Finance that authority to manage the money, no matter how you set up the committee, the final decision always will be at the Minister of Finance in terms of how they expend the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 103 2021.04.30 money, which is why when you have an FRC set up, where the Minister of Finance is part of that discussion along with the Secretary of Finance, it means that you have a longer period—let us say 12 months because this Committee is running consistently and every time you come to a budgetary process, the committee would be able to produce something to say, “Well okay, in the fiscal year, we think Tobago should actually get 8 per cent, 9 per cent or 10 per cent because of what Tobago needs to build out right now to the benefit of Trinidad and Tobago.” But the point that I am making is that because the Minister of Finance is part of the discussion process, it should, in principle, be easier because if the report comes out of the Committee that has a Minister of Finance as Chair and a Deputy Chair that is the Secretary of Finance, the two decision makers, then once it comes out of the Committee, it is a fait accompli.
It goes to the Parliament for approval during the budgetary process.

You understand what I am saying?

Mr. Des Vignes: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair, de Freitas.

I take what you are saying.

But similar to the DRC’s decision in the year 2000 that was then debated in Parliament, the DRC again was not a political compilation, but it still was debated in the Parliament and adopted by Parliament.
With the FRC review, whenever the review comes, I am not certain that it has been waiting now to go before Parliament automatically.
And again, because of the waiting of the Committee, unless a minority report is generated—and if there is a difference of opinions of the three appointed by Cabinet and the two appointed by the Executive Council—unless a minority report is submitted and then presented before Parliament, I do not know that the views or the minority views on that occasion would even get to the light of day.

So again, I do not know if it needs strengthening.


Again, we understand what the intent is but we are not certain at this point UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 104 2021.04.30 whether the will of the people of Tobago would be achieved by this current vehicle.
Maybe there needs to be amendments again to look at how the make-up can really ensure that there is a true and genuine review of the fiscal situation in Tobago on an annual basis to ensure that the considerations as pointed out in 23(4)(d) that we look at all of those things on a continuous basis because God forbid that there is a natural disaster or so on the island of Tobago, that these things are truly taken into consideration, one.
And two, make it to the Parliament for true consideration so that it can be approved for—whether there is an increase in the allocation.

Mr. de Freitas: I do accept that.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

If I could just interject here?

Thank you very much, Assemblyman.

We have the Minister of Finance with us.

Please remember that the Minister of Finance is not a member of the Committee, but we sought his advice on certain issues and he is with us to discuss that issue of the 6.8 per cent.
So I will now ask the Minister of Finance to take the floor.

Ms. Davidson-Celestine: Madam Chair, what we can do probably, perhaps, is to ask all of our questions under the category of fiscal independence and allow the Minister can respond because there are a few more considerations.

Madam Chairman: What we ask the Minister of Finance to talk about was the 6.8 per cent.

Ms. Davidson-Celestine: Okay.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Minister of Finance?

Mr. Imbert: Hello.

Are you all hearing me?


Madam Chairman: Yes, we are.

Mr. Imbert: Great.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Could I get some sort of understanding of who I am speaking to because I— UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 105 2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: Members of the Committee, and before us are stakeholders and those are stakeholders in Tobago.
And the question is being asked by the members of the PNM who are Tracey Davidson-Celestine, Mr. Des Vignes, Ms. Melville.

We also have Orville London with us, Stanford Callendar, Ayanna Webster-Roy.

I do not think I have left—I am hoping I have not left out anyone, and we also have Chief Secretary Ancil Dennis with us.

Mr. Imbert: Okay, fine.

So essentially, the participation today is by persons representing the PNM and the Committee.

Madam Chairman: No.
Madam Chairman: No.

Let me also say that this is a virtual consultation, so there would be other persons who are hearing what we are saying— Mr. Imbert: Understand.

Madam Chairman:—because it is a public consultation.

And we also had members of the PDP earlier, and Mr. Hochoy Charles and his team earlier.

We started at 10.30.

Mr. Imbert: Okay.

But it is virtual so that members of the public can look at it and— Madam Chairman: Yes, it is virtual so members of the public are hearing.
We are also on the Parliament Channel and we are also on other platforms.

Mr. Imbert: Thank you.

Madam Chairman: So, please, go ahead Minister of Finance to discuss the 6.8 per cent.

Mr. Imbert: Sure.

In order to establish some sort of scientific basis for determining what percentage of the national budget should be made available to Tobago in its new configuration, we looked at a number of factors.

Two primary factors would have been population size and land mass.
If you use either of them, you are going to get a percentage that is a little over 5 per cent.

We eventually UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 106 2021.04.30 settled on 5.8 which we felt was most representative.

It was the highest of the percentages received when you examined factors such as population size and land mass.
We then felt that because Tobago is an island and there would be expenses or expenditure in Tobago or cost that will be incurred in Tobago in the management and administration of the Tobago internal government, for want of a better word, that we should add an additional 1 per cent.

So the 6.8 is very simply derived.

It is using scientific principles looking at population, looking at land size, and then considering the fact that Tobago is an island.

So that is how we came up with 6.8.

It is 5.8 plus 1.
It is 5.8 plus 1.

Now, I was listening to some of the conversation and I can respond to some of the issues raised.

The 6.8, as you can see, was very simply determined based on very simple parameters.

However, as time goes by and the new Tobago administration gets more and more involved in its work and build its capacity, increases its establishment, its bureaucracy, its infrastructure as the case may be, then certainly that percentage would have to be revisited.
And this is what is anticipated by that institution that the Vice- President of the Senate was referring to.

It is envisaged that a very comprehensive and holistic examination would be made from time to time as the new Tobago administration takes on more and more responsibility for its own internal affairs.

At this point in time, the central government does provide, I would say, quite significance services within Tobago through the statutory authorities, and so on.
And we expect as time goes by, that all of that would be subsumed either partially or wholly within the new Tobago administration, and then where one would want to expect there will be a revisiting of the percentage and the allocation as the case may be.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 107 2021.04.30 Of course, if something happens, you know, God forbid, a terrible hurricane comes down and causes devastation, then that is another reason, another trigger to revisit the situation and see whether additional allocation or additional funding can become available.

That is it in a nutshell and I am here to answer any questions that I can.

Ms. Davidson-Celestine: Thank you very much for the clarity.
Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Imbert: Well, it seems they have no questions.

This is good.

[Laughter] Okay then, enjoy.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Des Vignes: I have a question for the Minister.

Madam Chairman: Someone has a question?

Ms. Davidson-Celestine: Yes, there are questions.

Mr. Imbert: I thought we had no questions.

Mr. Des Vignes: No.
Mr. Des Vignes: No.

So, Minister Imbert—thank you very much, Madam Chair, through you, I heard you mention that we took into consideration the size of the island population.

Were there any another factors that you took into consideration?

Mr. Imbert: We looked at land mass, the land area of Tobago, 300 square kilometres, as compared to the total land mass of Trinidad and Tobago which is just over 5,000 kilometres.

That is one factor.
That is one factor.

Because you could approach this exercise in different ways so we said let us look at land size and that yielded a particular percentage.

Then we said, let us look at population and that yielded another percentage.

And at the end of the day, we decided to use the highest percentage that would be derived from that scientific approach.

That gave the 5.8.
That gave the 5.8.

And then we added another further 1 per cent, in consideration of the fact that Tobago would have certain unique expenses because of the fact that it is an island.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 108 2021.04.30 Mr. Des Vignes: Thank you very much for the clarity.
But just to add, Minister, I do not know if you aware actually under this particular part of the Bill which is section 23(4), part (d), in particular, it goes beyond just land mass, but it actually speaks to factors such as the: “(i) physical separation of Tobago by sea from Trinidad… (ii) isolation from principal national growth centres; (iii) absence of the multiplier effect of expenditures and investments…made in Trinidad; (iv) restricted opportunities for employment and career fulfilment;” And: “(v) the impracticability of participation by residents of Tobago in the major educational, culture and sporting facilities located in Trinidad.” So what the Bill in itself, although the Ministry of Finance took into consideration land mass, the Bill actually outlines other factors that should have already been taken into consideration or should be taken into consideration by the FRC.
So as a matter of fact, if this Bill is passed tomorrow, hon.

Minister, then we would already be asking you to review the position of 6.8 per cent by looking at these other factors that are listed outlining the Bill.

Mr. Imbert: Is that Mr. Des Vignes speaking?

Mr. Des Vignes: Yes, Mr. Imbert—Minister Imbert.

Mr. Imbert: Okay.

Secretary Des Vignes, I was very clear.

When you use factors such as land mass, you get 5.8 per cent.
The other factors that you have listed there contributed to the additional 1 per cent, taking it to 6.8 per cent.

Mr. Des Vignes: Well, that was not the impression, but thank you for indicating that those factors account for 1 per cent.

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Imbert: Well, we do not know exactly what the factors will account for under UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 109 2021.04.30 the new and improved administration.
So this is an initial allocation of an additional 1 per cent to take care of those factors of which you spoke.

Obviously, as I said, as time goes by and the new administration starts to do its work and take on the additional responsibilities, then that additional 1 per cent would have to be the first thing that will have to be examined.

But at this point in time, we felt it appropriate to add that additional 1 per cent.

Mr. Des Vignes: All right.

Thank you very much.


Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Minister.

We appreciate your intervention.

Mr. Imbert: Oh, my pleasure— Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Imbert:—and good afternoon to all.

Madam Chairman: Assemblyman Des Vignes, you were on the floor?

Mr. Des Vignes: Thank you very much.

I think the political leader had some other questions, as a regard to the FCR, Madam Chair.

So I will pass on to the political leader.

Ms. Davidson-Celestine: Yes.


So as we continue the discussions, there are other areas that we have highlighted as it concerns—and that has to do with, one, part of the role and responsibility of the Fiscal Review Commission which speaks the internal audit functions rather.

This is 23(4)(c) which speaks to: “…initiate special audits into any financial matter of the Tobago Island Government…” Our view is that the Tobago House of Assembly has already established audit systems.
As a matter of fact, we have the internal audit arrangement, we also have the Auditor General that would call very regularly on the Tobago House of Assembly systems and, of course, that is easily regarded as an independent UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 110 2021.04.30 arrangement.
And apart from that, within this draft Tobago Island Bill as well as within the precedent arrangement of the current Tobago House of Assembly Act 40 of 1996, it speaks to a number of different committees that will cause the accounts of the Tobago House of Assembly to be audited on a regular basis.
And so, we took issue with the fact that given that the people of Tobago are asking for financial independence, that there is included in the responsibilities of the Fiscal Review Commission, a line, a clause that says we will initiate special audits into the financial matters of the Tobago House of Assembly, and we ask for that to be removed from the Bill.
Madam Chairman: Assemblyman Tracey Davidson-Celestine, it would be the Fiscal Review Commission that would be making that kind of recommendation and please understand that as it stands now, there is a provision for special audits that exist for the central government.
So what this does is just mirror that ability of the Fiscal Review Commission to be able to recommend special audit apart from what already exists, as you outlined it, because that is normal in terms of making sure that financial issues are properly dealt with—special audits.
Ms. Davidson-Celestine: But in the context of what we are attempting to achieve, which is greater autonomy for the people of Tobago, and in certain respects, greater financial independence for the people of Tobago, we are of the view that including a special audit arrangement into this particular role and responsibility of the Fiscal Review Commission seems to endorse the view by Tobagonians that there will be dominance of the Cabinet as well as the Parliament in the affairs of the people of Tobago.
Madam Chairman: All right, we will look at it.

You want to move on from that?

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Yes.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 111 2021.04.30 Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: And apart from that, the Bill is silent, in terms of how funds are to be remitted to the Tobago House of Assembly, and so we wish to have included in the Bill the expression of the current Tobago House of Assembly Act, which speaks to the Tobago House of Assembly receiving its resources in quarterly payments.

And if you were to look at section 47 of the current Tobago Act it spells that out.
It expresses it very nicely.

Madam Chairman: We will take advice from the Ministry of Finance in that regard.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: A department of Treasury in Tobago is also recommended to treat with the need for documentation, such as the assessment of pensions and gratuity on this island.
Far too often we find that all of those documentation must go to Trinidad to be processed and it takes an inordinate length of time to treat with issues of gratuity, to treat with issues having to do with pensions for the people of Tobago.

And so we are asking for an expression with regard to a department of Treasury included in the Bill.

Madam Chairman: Okay.


Could I just point out that in accordance with the Fifth Schedule, you would see where we have Fifth Schedule, item five, everything in relation to finance except for banking, borrowing, external borrowing, foreign exchange and exchange control, Customs and Excise, taxation, financial intelligence and national insurance, will be dealt with by Tobago.

So that would be covered there.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: All right.

Thank you very much.

Madam Chairman: You are welcome.


Other concerns?

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Composition of the Tobago legislature.

The Tobago legislature comprises, of course, the President and the House of Assembly.

And, of course, the House of Assembly, as per your document, comprises Assemblymen UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 112 2021.04.30 and councillors, as well as the presiding officer and the deputy presiding officer.
But there are certain areas in reading the document, which can be easily queried under how it was drafted, and it has to do, one, with the question of who selects the presiding officer.

And in the document, or who elects, rather, the presiding officer and that should be made clear.

Is it the House of Assembly comprising councillors and Assemblymen?

Or is it the Assemblymen solely?

That is not clear in the document.


Because, if you were to read on and you were to follow, councillors are selected later on, after the Minority Leader, and which is after the three days required for swearing in of the members of the Assembly.

And then the question of who is sworn in three days after the— Madam Chairman: Sorry, Assemblyman.

If you look at, in the Constitution amendment at 141E(2), that is clear there.
It says when the House of Assembly first meets after the election and before it proceeds to the dispatch of any other business, except the election of the presiding— the House shall—sorry it is 141E(1).
When the House of Assembly first meets after the elections and before it proceeds to the dispatch of any other business, it shall elect a person to be the presiding officer of the House of Assembly, and if the office of the presiding officer falls vacant, the House of Assembly shall, as soon as practicable, elect another person to that office.
Ms. Davidson-Celestine: But the thing is, the House of Assembly— when the House of Assembly first meets after the election, the House of Assembly here is defined as Assemblymen and councillors, and you were to follow on from, I think it is section 141D, it states that the: President shall administer the oath of office set out in the First Schedule to UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 113 2021.04.30 the Members of the Tobago Legislature at a meeting held for such purpose not later than three days after the appointment.

There are also some challenges here because when you look at how Legislature is defined, it is defined as the President as well as the Members of the House of Assembly.
But if you were to read further down, House of Assembly comprises both Assemblymen and councillors, and document clearly spells out that the councillors are to be appointed way down after the minority leader has been elected.

So there is a challenge with the definition in this regard.

Madam Chairman: You want it to be clarified.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: It has to be clarified.

Madam Chairman: All right, so we will look at that again.
Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Particularly in the present circumstances we are having quite is a lot of challenges with regard to the interpretation.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

So we will look at that again.

Okay so we can move on?

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Yes, and we can.

The final point in terms of the composition of the Tobago legislature, we are asking that "Assemblyman" be replaced with "Assembly Member" so that it becomes gender neutral.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Thanks.


Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: In terms of the area having to do with human resources, I would now hand over to Kwesi Des Vignes who would shed some light in that regard.

Mr. Des Vignes: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.
Through you, Madam Chairman, of course when the Bill was presented to Cabinet with the proposition for a Tobago service commission, it was to deal with the issues endemic to Tobago of the slow pace of appointment of public servants, teachers, the slow pace of UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 114 2021.04.30 promotions, the fact that the public service did not seem agile enough to deal with the needs of the people of Tobago.
The proposition under the Bill, which is at the start of Constitution amendment, speaks to the Tobago Division having two additional members ordinarily resident in Tobago.

But we are very unclear as to how, one, this will work and, two, how we would deal with the issues that were presented by the people of Tobago, in terms of the weaknesses of the public service at the present.

So I do not know if the committee would be able to provide some clarity on that.
Madam Chairman: Member Des Vignes, explain to me what you view as the concern or the issue that would not be solved by having two members ordinarily resident in Tobago on the Public Service Commission, especially given the fact that our information is that if we were to set up a whole public service commission for Tobago, that may create some issues.

But give me an example of what your concerns are, please.
Mr. Des Vignes: Well Chair, well the challenge that we are having is that we are quite unsure as to what the operations will be.

At present, there is supposed to be an office for the Public Service Commission in Tobago, which is not well staffed, is not up to date with their database, and so on.

If, for example, a public officer has to act for first time in a more senior position, that has to be remitted to Trinidad first, and so on.

So we are unclear at present.


Nothing has been spelt out obviously in the Constitution amendment as to how the proposal in the Bill, for two Members, would solve how you will work to deal with these issues in Tobago.

Madam Chairman: Let me say that you have to remember that the Bill will not outline all the mechanics of how something would work.

Let me also say that the objective therefore is to ensure that the Public Service Commission has, as it were, a division that is resident in Tobago.
That would ensure that that issue that you UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 115 2021.04.30 have mentioned with regard to things not occurring as quickly as they should, would be solved.

Because these members would be resident in Tobago.

The Public Service Commission would ensure that there is proper staffing, and so on, so that the Tobago issues can be dealt with expeditiously, if that is what is needed.
Now of course in the Bill itself those kinds of things would not be stated; those administrative issues that would be dealt with by the Service Commission.

But our learning was that the Service Commission, and not only the Service Commission but the information that we got from the United Nations, and so on, was of the firm view that there should not be a duplication of another Service Commission for Tobago specifically.
But that the Service Commission would have an arm in Tobago that would deal with only Tobago issues and would not be stymied by Trinidad and Tobago issues having to be dealt with at the same time.

So that was the objective.

Mr. Des Vignes: Thank you very much Madam Chairman, because we were really trying to get clarity on how the committee envisioned it working.
In terms of the Cabinet and parliamentary dominance over Tobago, there are parts of the current Bills that still speak, in the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill, to parliamentary oversight or dominance over the Tobago island government and Cabinet oversight and dominance over the Executive Council.

In section 84 of the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill, which speaks to where a Tobago Act is inconsistent with an Act passed by Parliament, the Act passed by Parliament prevails to the extent of the inconsistency.
And we are very well aware, because we heard you mention it previously, that there were consultations with the former Attorney General of St. Kitts and Nevis on the boundary issues.

However, in the St. Kitts and Nevis model, although it is federal system, what we have found is that where there is this conflict, the nod goes the other way.

And, of course, it is UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 116 2021.04.30 because the intent of any Legislature is to make good law.

And it is the responsibility of the Legislature in Tobago to do the same thing, make good law for the people of Tobago.

So where there are situations where it is felt that the law has been put forward and the law is in the best interest of Tobago and where a conflict arises, it should be the other way around that the Tobago law should continue to get the nod.
Madam Chairman: Could I indicate that where there is a Parliament, which is what is intended for the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago, that if Tobago make as law that inconsistent with the laws of the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago, it will be that the law of the Parliament will prevail.

And if you look at the St. Kitts and Nevis, legislation, you will see that in fact that the case.

There cannot be a law for Tobago that is inconsistent with the overall law for Trinidad and Tobago.
And to the extent that there is that inconsistency, the inconsistency will fall away and the rest of the law will prevail.

But the Parliament will continue to be supreme, because it is for the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago.
Ms. Melville: Madam Chairman, not to prolong the issue, but does that mean for instance in the existing COVID-19 situation, when the regulations were announced that the quarantine rules in Trinidad provided that persons could quarantine at their domestic residences, and in Tobago because we know our context, and we decided to embark on a different course of action.
If these Bills were law and operational therefore the inconsistency in the Tobago situation would have been subject to legal challenge, despite the fact that the intention was to be able to more effectively manage the COVID situation.

Madam Chairman: Ms. Melville, you recognize as an attorney-at-law yourself, that the Tobago Island Government will be able to make subsidiary legislation.
So if there is an instance where something like that were to occur, especially as it UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 117 2021.04.30 relates to that issue of health and so on, I am sure if Tobago situation were different, then when these Bills become law then Tobago would be able to look at its particular instance and be able to make regulations that relate to what is happening specifically in Tobago.
Ms. Melville: Then a citizen would be able to challenge, because there would be the inconsistency and given that provision, I would still make a further submission in writing, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: All right, we would await your submission in writing.

But the issue is that we are trying to make sure that the laws that govern Trinidad and Tobago, the Tobago laws are not in conflict with those laws.
But we have been very specific in that the Fourth Schedule outlines very clearly what are the areas where the Tobago legislature has the ability that make laws.

But we will await your submission in writing.

Ms. Melville: Just a final point from my side.

The issue of the mediation committee.

That is another cause for concern, the composition.

Because the parties to the potential conflict also seem to be the mediators.
And in addition to that, if the matter is not resolved at mediation, this section provides that the extent of appeals would be limited.

And I am just enquiring as to the reason for that.

Madam Chairman: All right.

This is one of the areas that we do understand that there has been some concern and we will review that.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: All right, thank you.


Outside of the issue of mediation, I want to go back to the composition of the Tobago legislature and to bring to the table the point of the assistant secretaries, which were not adequately represented in new arrangement.

In the current Tobago House of Assembly Act, they mention in 37(b)(1) that the President on advise of Chief Secretary may appoint members to the office of assistant secretary.

However, in this regard, in this Bill, it is silent.
UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 118 2021.04.30 Can we have consideration for assistant secretaries in this current arrangement?

Madam Chairman: Could you repeat?

I am not sure I understood exactly what you said.

Can you repeat, please?

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: We are talking about the mention of assistant secretaries in the Bill.
In the current Tobago House of Assembly Act, section 37(b)(1) speaks to the President on the advice of the Chief Secretary appointing a Member to the office of assistant secretary.

However, in this Bill there is no mention of assistant secretaries.

Mr. Chairman: Okay, no problem Assemblywoman Tracey Davidson-Celestine.

If that is [MR. dE FREITAS in the Chair] the case, then we would review it and make the necessary adjustments.

Mr. Des Vignes: Deputy Chair, if I may?

Mr. Chairman: Sure, go ahead.


Mr. Des Vignes: There was an issue as well and I spoke before of Parliament dominance, of Cabinet dominance that we have to address, and which is one of the vexed issues for the people of Tobago as well.

There was always the concern of section 75(1), and, of course, it was section 25 of the current Act.

Section 25(1) speaks to, without prejudice to section 75(1) of the Constitution.
However, the Constitution amendment here in 75(1)(b) creates an area of concern for us that we would like to be addressed.

It reads: In relation to Tobago no responsibility for the matter set out in the First Schedule, unless there is an emergency or unforeseen circumstance requiring the intervention of the Cabinet.
And we are saying that there is some vagueness in that and it may be subject to misinterpretation in the future and we would to like some more get some more tightness in that because it still leaves a window open for Cabinet dominance, UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 119 2021.04.30 which has been one of the things that Tobagonians have been very clear, they would like to see removed in this new arrangement.

Mr. Chairman: Okay.
Mr. Chairman: Okay.

So I understand where you are coming from.

But the interpretation of that has to be taken into context of what occurs now.

So Tobago, as far as I understand, has its own emergency management authority which, as far as I am aware, is number one in the Caribbean there is no other to beat it.
So when you take that into context, and you read what you just read out, it would essentially mean in an emergency situation where Tobago cannot treat with that emergency, and therefore it would require intervention of the Cabinet.

It is not meant, as a scapegoat or a caveat to say that the Cabinet could just declare emergency on its own and then take over.

That is not the case.

There is a management authority in Tobago, like I said, which is bar none, it is very good.
And it is only in a situation where an emergency arises— and just, for example, if a hurricane passes and completely flattens all of Tobago, then obviously Tobago cannot deal with that type of emergency.

It would require some sort of intervention from an outside entity to come in and assist.

So that is the context that that is in.


It is not meant in any way for Cabinet to have any kind of scapegoat clause to be able to come in and then say well there is an emergency, when there is none and therefore have control.

That is not the intent.

But I hear what you are saying, and if it needs to be reworded more specifically to say what I have just said, then we will take that into account, Member Des Vignes.

Mr. Des Vignes: Yes please.

Thank you very much, because there is still very much concern.
Because we do not know what an unforeseen circumstance—how do you define that?

And, again even if there is a, God forbid again, that there is a natural disaster in Tobago, unless it also took out the lives of the premier and UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 120 2021.04.30 everyone else, we still have legitimate decision-makers on the island.

And if there has to be collaboration then let us say that; that there would be collaboration.
But to stay that Cabinet can now make decisions now because there is an emergency, or an unforeseen circumstance, I think that is something that we have to protect against.

I think it will be a bit of dereliction of duty if we did not represent that, because it is one of the things I could recall very clearly that Tobagonians were up against section 25(1), as I said, which speaks to 75(1) of the Constitution.

So I would really like that to be re- evaluated.

Mr. Chairman: Okay, member Des Vignes.


So, like I said, it was not the intention to have it as a scapegoat for anybody to come in and undermine the authority that is invested in the Executive Council.

It was really a situation where an emergency is so grave that outside intervention would be needed.

But like I said, if it is being interpreted the way that you are saying, then we can surely take a look at it to see how it could be worded to read and be interpreted the way it is supposed to be.
Any more concerns?

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Well, not on that particular issue, but on the issue of the definition of "Tobago".

I do not think that we have adequately discussed that, and there was no response from the members of the committee, with regard to how you would have come up with the proposal as listed in the Act on the definition of "Tobago".

Because when you look at our Act, which the legal counsel would have pointed out, it speaks to six nautical miles.
And when we look at what is put forward, we are seeing a more retrograde step, in terms of how "Tobago" is defined.

And so if we are talking about autonomy, we are talking about determination, to our mind, a more progressive approach must be taken into consideration.

And, of course, this must take into account a share of the maritime UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 121 resources for the people of Tobago.
2021.04.30 And in that regard, we would have advanced, we would have expressed that 12 nautical miles to be considered, of course, we are not disregarding the international laws, the international rules and regulations.

But we are looking for an internal arrangement between Tobago and Trinidad that can give us the people in Tobago the assurance, the comfort that we can treat with these issues as described.

Mr. Chairman: Thank you again, Assemblywoman Tracey Davidson-Celestine.
So we have been sitting in this consultation since 10.30 and that particular issue came up from several stakeholders that appeared before the committee, which led to a very robust the discussion between the Attorney General and those particular stakeholders, no fault of you guys, because obviously you are coming at this particular point.
But just to summarize what was discussed is that the Committee invited those stakeholders to sort of put in writing their recommendations as to a middle ground that could be achieved, taking into account the learnings that the Committee would have received from various individuals, both internationally and locally.

So we are not saying that we are not going to take it on board.
What we are saying is that we need to come up with a middle ground, and if you could put in writing a sort of proposed model as well as to how that middle ground could be achieved, taking into account all of the learnings that you guys would have had and we will take into account the learnings that the Committee has received and try to come up with a middle ground in relation to that particular issue.
Mr. Des Vignes: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairman, member de Freitas because I think it, and I guess it cannot be understated what Ms. Melville did indicate, that if you were to look at the archipelagic baseline for Trinidad and UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 122 2021.04.30 Tobago, none exist for southwest Tobago.
So whereas you may have baselines that go around Marvel Island, Little Tobago, there are none around Little Tobago and of course the context of possibly preserving our fishing stock, marine parks, and so on, we will want to ensure that the Bill does take those things into consideration.

So we will submit in writing.

But just to say that, of course, what currently exists definitely cannot go forward, given the shortcomings that have been identified.
[MRS. ROBINSON-REGIS in the Chair] also take on board, as we have been doing, the advice of the constitutional experts.

And that was the advice that we relied upon.

And the advice generally was that it is not advisable and it is impractical to divide the waters of a unitary state.

In addition to that, the practice in international law does not support this and the archipelagic states do not divide the waters between their regions or islands.
But as my colleague said please submit what you are thinking and we will exam it and then we will take advice in terms of how this can be done.

Are there any other issues that you wanted to raise?

Anybody on your team wanted to raise any other issues?

Member Tracey Des Vignes.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: There is no— Madam Chairman: Sorry, member Davidson-Celestine.

I have been here since 10.00 o'clock, so— [Laughter] Member Davidson-Celestine.
I do not know if there was anything else you wanted to raise.

If you do have a Tracey Des Vignes there, she could raise as well.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: There is no Tracey Des Vignes, only Tracey Davidson-Celestine.

I am not so sure if there are any other comments from any of the members at this time.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 123 2021.04.30 Madam Chairman: Okay, so would like to thank you very much for your interventions today.
I would also like to remind you that we are expecting you to send us certain issues that you have raised in writing and we want to thank you for participating in this robust consultation and we look forward to receiving your submissions in writing.

Thank you very much to members who we did not see, like Mr. Orville London, Mr. Stanford Calendar, member Ayanna Webster-Roy and I hope I have not left out anyone.

Thank you very much.

Mr. De Freitas: And member Dennis as well.


Chief Secretary Dennis as well, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: All right.

Thank you very much, and we look forward to our continued discussions, and member Ancil Dennis, sorry.

Thank you very much.

Meeting adjourned.

UNREVISED VERBATIM NOTES OF THE PUBLIC CONSULTATION OF THE JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION (AMDT.)
(TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 (IN PUBLIC) HELD AT THE VICTOR E. BRUCE FINANCIAL COMPLEX SCARBOROUGH TOBAGO, ON SATURDAY MAY 01, 2021, AT 11.10 A.M.
PRESENT Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis Chairman Mr. Nigel de Freitas Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Mr. Clarence Rambharat Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh Mr. Dinesh Rambally Mr. Faris Al-Rawi Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Secretary Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary PUBLIC STAKEHOLDERS Dr. James Armstrong Dr. Denise Tsoiafatt-Angus Ms. Janae Campbell Ms. Margaret Park Ms. Ishla Bedlow Ms. Juliet James Mr. James Trim Mr. Max James Ms. Shirley Cooke UNREVISED Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2 2021.05.01 Ms. Cynthia Alfred Mr. Kevern Phillips Mr. Anthony Hector Ms. Nickocy Phillips Mr. Jerron Smith Mr. Reginald Vidale Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder Stakeholder Madam Chairman: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Good morning in particular to the listening and viewing public of Tobago and Trinidad.
I want to welcome you to this our second day of consultations on the issue of the work of the Joint Select Committee of the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago and the Constitution (Amdt.)

Tobago Self-Government Bill, 2020.

Ladies and gentlemen before you is the Joint Select Committee team.

I also want to welcome the team from the CPC and the staff of the Parliament and I want to thank them for their continued support.
Let me start by asking members of the Joint Select Committee to introduce themselves and I will start with the members in Trinidad.

[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: Thank you all very kindly and today we have stakeholders from the public who are here with us and they will be invited to make their comments.
But before I invite anyone to make their comments, I would like to just start by reminding you that this is the second day of consultations, and I am obliged to indicate that these are discussions set to deepen Tobago’s autonomy within the Constitution of our unitary State and these discussions did not begin today, they started many years ago.
In due course, however, that is to say in 2016 there was a debate in the Tobago House of Assembly on a Draft Bill, to amend the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago to accord a self-government to Tobago.

That Bill was transmitted to UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 3 2021.05.01 the Cabinet of Trinidad and Tobago.

This Cabinet under the leadership of Dr. Keith Rowley, himself are proud Tobagonian, brought the Constitution (Amdt.)
Bill to the Parliament in 2018 in order to have the Parliament examine it, and formulate a Bill for debate by the Parliament.

The Bill was sent to the Parliament without changes in 2018.

This Bill was then sent to a Joint Select Committee in March of that same year.
Over the period 2018 and 2019 that Committee called for comments and submissions and held a series of public hearings with stakeholders and experts from Tobago and Trinidad as well as Constitutional experts, other legal experts and other experts from various jurisdictions and also from the United Nations.

All with knowledge, expertise and experience in relevant Constitutional matters, and in particular issues relating to internal self-government.

The life of that Committee wound to an end in 2020.
Upon the resumption of the new Parliament, the Bill was referred to a new Joint Select Committee in November 2020.

This is the Committee that is before you.

With the aid of the body of research inherited from the last Committee, the new Joint Select Committee set about its work.
This Committee has since circulated our preliminary findings and proposals and the two Bills, which we have produced draft Bills based on our mandate from the Cabinet and from the Parliament to develop and formulate draft legislation.

This Joint Select Committee produced the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill and the Tobago Island Government Bill.

We trust that all interested citizens have by now been able to read these draft Bills.
Our understanding is that they have been widely circulated, especially in Tobago, but also in Trinidad.

It is also our understanding that there have been and continues to be healthy conversations over these draft Bills throughout Tobago.

This is all part of the process of lawmaking, especially for legislation that will institute such momentous changes.

We welcome and UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 4 2021.05.01 encourage such exchanges, notwithstanding the fact that many of these conversations stretch beyond our current scope and capacity.

Today, we continue those conversations.

Yesterday, we had intense and thought provoking discussions with a number of leaders of Tobago, all ever net evidently passionate, and quite robust, as a Committee, we appreciated one and all.
Indeed, yesterday, we the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago would like to a family who shared a house where some members lived upstairs while some lived downstairs this family house.

Interestingly, many queried the validity of this perception.

You see, there are many citizens who believe that, despite the origins of this union, this union of Trinidad and Tobago is strong and deeply connected.
Many citizens believe that the family members who live in that house, which is indeed a blessed home, live side by side today.

Based on the discussions yesterday, we have already flagged areas for review, and we undertake to do so.

All of this is part of the mandate assigned to us by the Parliament, as requested by the people after that debate in the THA in 2016 and then by the Cabinet in 2018, which sent, I repeat, the then Bill to the Parliament to be sent to the Joint Select Committee.
Where necessary, we will again seek the counsel of eminent Constitutional legal experts.

To assist us in this regard, we hope that those who have so far contributed, will send their comments in writing as early as possible.

So, as I said yesterday, this Committee is interested in all comments.

This is the process of lawmaking.

We assure you that, mindful of our mandate, we will take all comments on board.
We have today in this virtual space, several citizens who have registered to make submissions and so we begin, we will begin with the first person who is with us, and I will ask those who are on to introduce UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 5 2021.05.01 themselves.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen and I look forward to a productive day today.

I think Mr. Armstrong—Dr.

Armstrong—is here with us.

Dr. Armstrong: Are you hearing me Madam Minister?


Madam Chairman: Yes, I am, please introduce yourself and you have the floor.

Dr. Armstrong: Okay.

I am James Armstrong, urban and regional planner, Tobagonian, and I had been following the discussions since we started yesterday.

Just two quick observations, Madam Chair, Madam Minister.
With respect to the boundaries for Tobago, I had some concerns about that discussion yesterday, because I am of the view that if Tobago is going to have responsibility for planning and development in a spatial context, then it is very necessary to clearly define or delineate what is considered to be Tobago in a spatial context.

And I have been hearing several definitions being given.

I also heard that for the calculation of the allocation from the budget, that the size of the landmass was used.
But I want to also point out that there would be a need for management beyond the landmass.

As you are fully aware, Minister, the existing legislation on planning and development includes responsibility for development within the sea or under the sea.

And therefore, I am not sure how that is going to work without a very clear definition of the boundaries, not only for the control, or the permitting of development, but also for the management of resources within whatever that jurisdiction is.
And therefore, I would appreciate very much if the Committee can really have another look at that and come up with something very definitive and very clear, although I understand the point that you made yesterday, Madam Minister, that this normally would not be delineated within a single state setting.
But in this particular case, with the Tobago island government, I think it is very, very important for permitting of development for the management of resources, that needs to be very clear, particularly if Tobago is also going to be responsible UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 6 2021.05.01 for planning and development.

And we need to define what is meant by environment in that context as well.

That is my contribution.

Madam.


Madam Chairman: Thank you very much and we appreciate that, and I understand what you are saying about the development context and we will examine that.

Thank you very much.

Dr. Armstrong: Thank you very much.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, Madam Chair, may I?

Madam Chairman: Yes, go ahead.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Quick response to Dr. Armstrong.

First of all, it is very, very good to hear from Dr. Armstrong.

Thank you so much for your submission.


No stranger to strong submissions in Trinidad and Tobago, having served as an Independent for many years, Independent Senator.

Madam Chair, just to let you know that we have looked at this we welcome the suggestion.

The Planning and Facilitation Development Bill in co-ordination with the devolution of authorities that are provided for in that structure, coupled with the management of the maritime and other resources, are factors that we have paid attention to.
We welcome the submission and will have a further look at it to make sure that we have the i's dotted and t's crossed in line with the comments made by Dr. Armstrong.

Madam Chairman: Thank you member Al-Rawi, in addition to that the delineation can occur within the Planning and Facilitation Act itself because the municipal corporations are defined, thank you very much.

Dr. Tsoiafatt?

Dr. Tsoiafatt?

I understand Dr. Tsoiafatt is in the room, if you can hear us you can have the floor.
Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Good morning, Madam Chairperson, can you hear me now?

Madam Chairman: Yes, very clearly, you have the floor.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 7 2021.05.01 Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thank you.

Let me say good morning to other members of Joint Select Committee, other Ministers and the viewing audience, good morning.

I am here as a former Presiding Officer and another passionate Tobagonian, wanting to see greater autonomy for Tobago.
Madam Chairperson, the business at hand is a very serious one.

It is a dream that has taken forever and a day and has grown into long standing conversations with Tobagonians and spanning over 15 years.
Of course, the last five years has been at the level of the Joint Select Committee and five years is a long time and therefore, the effective use of time I will not focus on a preamble— Madam Chairman:—it just came to the Parliament in 2018 and now it is before a new Joint Select Committee— Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Okay, yes.

Madam Chairman:—in November 2020.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Okay, thank you for the correction Madam Chairman: And last year was COVID, if you recall so— Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Right.
Madam Chairman:—November 2020.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: And we still in COVID?

Madam Chairman: Yes.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: So, I will go directly to the feedback on the Bills.

From my perspective, knowing first hand of all the work that has been done, the involvement of people across Tobago, and various contributions over time, I too, must register my disappointment by the documents presented to me, and like many others Tobagonians had hoped that this would be the final Bill we could be all excited about.
Nevertheless, it is important that as many of us as possible, express our UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 8 2021.05.01 concerns so that we can better appreciate the true desire of Tobagonians and therefore, I thank you for this opportunity today.
I want to go directly to clause 5 and I have to agree with Mr. Charles from yesterday, when he stated that even though it has good intent, it is not fully expressed throughout the document and I would just leave that there.

And clause 6, and I, you know, heard Dr. James most eloquently, expressed and articulate his concerns with the clause that we all have problems with, you know, the lack of borders, and being defined is a hard pill to swallow.
Defining Tobago was the doorway for Tobagonians, feeling that we are significant contributors to our own economic development, and even that contributing to the national pie.

The questions have been asked, who would have jurisdiction over the marine parks?

To whom does the Buccoo Reef now belong?

Who will have authority over the reef operators?

And, you know, what about the creation of a marina?

Where does that fall?


These were all areas where Tobago, will, you know, we are looking forward to derive our economic benefits from if it were ever handled well, but with these grey areas of having no borders, I could see where it could be very contentious.

The current conversation on the ground among the fisherman is how they are feeling about knowing that they will be fishing in Trinidad waters.
Now, while I understand the Government’s predicament, given your interpretation of the international Law of the Sea, well articulated by Minister Al- Rawi, there must be an opportunity for creating and documenting an internal understanding between us and I really applaud you, Madam Chairperson, for suggesting that it can be done because the municipal authorities do have their definitions.

In clause 7— UNREVISED 9 JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Madam Chairman: Dr. Tsoiafatt— Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yes?

2021.05.01 Madam Chairman:—let me indicate that what I said, in terms of it being done, was for it to be done as it relates to the planning and facilitation— Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Okay.

Madam Chairman:—and that would be in that legislation.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, sorry to interrupt Dr. Tsoiafatt.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: That is okay.

Madam Chairman: Perhaps the Attorney General— Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yes.
Madam Chairman:—can give the clarity, as it relates to the boundaries, because he did that yesterday, and I will ask him to do it again, before you proceed.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Good morning, Dr. Tsoiafatt, so very good to hear from you.

Thank you so much.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Good morning.

Mr. Al-Rawi: I am sticking this conversation, just at point one.
I know you have other points to make, but so that we do not get too far away from point one, if I can just have a small intervention that can perhaps— Dr. Tsoiafatt Angus: Yes.

Mr. Al-Rawi:—if it is in clarifying this issue.

Dr. Tsoiafatt, you have echoed a concern raised by several people, and I think it is a very important one that we understand.
First of all, you have made the observation that clauses 4 and 5— clause 4 in the Constitution, which treats with the amendment of the Preamble to the Constitution, and clause 5, which treats—I will come to clause 5 in a second as it does—they all relate to the Tobagonian desire, which joins the Trinidad and Tobago desire for autonomy.

Let me make it abundantly clear, the Fourth UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 10 2021.05.01 Schedule, which sets out the legislative functions of Tobago, combined with the Fifth Schedule, which sets out the administrative functions of Tobago, let us start with that so that Tobago knows what it is dealing with.

First of all, yesterday, pursuant to an observation, we are rechecking the Fifth Schedule.

The Fifth Schedule will at the very least include every single function that the Tobago House of Assembly Act had.
If there are any variations between the Fifth Schedule now and what the THA Act has, the instruction will be, from the AG’s Office, the recommendation will be, include all of the powers that the THA Act had and go further.

In other words then, whatever else may be there.

When you look to the Fourth Schedule which is administrative functions, we fully intend that planning and development will be captured, that we will—and it is already captured at No.

13 of the Schedule.
13 of the Schedule.

We will also be looking at sports and tourism and parks and recreational spaces.

When we look to those factors, we will ensure that Tobago therefore has, included in it, its marine parks.

It you look to item 17 of the Fourth Schedule, where Tobago has parks and other places for public recreation, that was not intended to mean only land parks.

What we will do, following out of these consultations, is that we will make sure that we get that into better clarity.
So the intention is, and the message back, as you give a lovely example of Tobago fishermen—the safety, the function of tourism, the management of marine parks—all of those functions can easily continue to stay in Tobago the same way the Tobago Marine Park Bill has come for consideration now by the national Parliament.

You made a very important point about Tobago fishermen fishing in Tobago’s waters.
Let us just explain, very carefully, in a very simple way for the listening public, so that we are all clear.

The reason why we have not said what is a Tobago water versus a Trinidad water is that if we do that, the advice coming from UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 11 2021.05.01 the international experts is that we will lose the benefit of an archipelagic State and we would lose the benefits of what we consider to be a unitary State.
If I would just explain that simply, it means this.

Trinidad and Tobago is more than just the thing which kicks out of the waters in the two islands.

We include, all of the shelf under the water up to a particular distance.

In an archipelagic State, what happens is, the boundary is significantly wide underwater.

The ratio is approximately 1.4, 1.5 of water to one of island in an archipelagic state.
So you could imagine Tobago and Trinidad together, you then go 1.5 times the size of the island, basically, in a ratio or 1.6 times the value, and from there you know how much water you are going to have to constitute your economic exclusive zone tied in to your continental shelf.
The advice which comes from the international expert is, if we were to take the waters of Trinidad and define Trinidad what kicks out of the water and then you add what is underwater, if we were to take that, and then we take the waters of Tobago, what is going to happen is that we are going to drop down to somewhere about 0.4 per cent or the ratio will be 0.4:1.

So, what happens is, putting quite simply, the waters shrink upon us.
So that is why yesterday when Mr. Farley Augustine raised the issue of Trinidad and Tobago and the necessity for waters, we pointed out to him and we asked him squarely, is it that he wants Tobago and Trinidad to lose roughly about two-thirds of what they could claim under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea?

So those ratios are what are at risk right now.


We pointed out that if we were to, until we complete our Shipping Bill, and our Land and Fisheries Management and, very importantly, please to everybody listening, we are right now under the Law of the Sea Convention.

We are right now in our economic exclusive zone convention.

From an oil and gas perspective the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 12 2021.05.01 Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is arguing its claim against Barbados, Grenada, Suriname and Guyana.

Those areas around us have the chance, under the Law of the Sea, to take more acreage if we make the mistake at this point in time of saying, this is the island of Tobago and its waters and the island of Trinidad and its waters.
So what the Committee has been advised, and what I very careful to remind of, is that if we make the mistake at this point to define the six-mile boundary or the 12-mile boundary, whether it is nautical miles or otherwise, we are going to have arguments in law where we may very well be giving up something that we do not want the give up right now, because we are in the middle in arbitration and consideration on those issues.
What the Committee has open to itself is the ability to clarify by better intention in the Schedules, Schedules four and five, we can clarify what the particular structures will be in terms of management.

Because the fishermen of Trinidad and Tobago want to fish in more acreage rather than less.

If we were to go with the Tobago waters and the Trinidad waters, I want to remind this, then we end up in the Brexit problem.
In the Brexit problem, the fishermen between Europe and Ireland, not the northern part of it, had a problem as to who was in which waters, how do they count fish.

You would have to go into a fishing depot, you would have to track the vessel in Tobago water.

You would now have to say, well this has a different tariff in Tobago.

It is going to be extremely complicated.

It will be “Tobago exit” or “Trexit” whichever way you want to call it, the point is that it will be extremely complicated.
We looked at the islands of Saint Kitts and Nevis and other examples, they do not define Nevis waters and St. Kitts waters.

And just to put the ratios on the table, if we did Tobago waters and Trinidad waters, we would fall from our archipelagic waters of 7,200 square kilometres.

If UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 13 2021.05.01 we went to Tobago waters, we would fall down to 3,282 square kilometres.

Listen to that difference.


We are moving from 7,200 square kilometres to 3,200 square kilometres.

That will be a disaster for the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

If I could just turn to the last point that you raised, which is a very important point, and this is in relation to the specifics of clauses 4 and 5, I told you I would come back to clause 5, if I could just pull it up here now.
Just to make it clear, clause 4 is the preamble of the Constitution, and we are inserting into the preamble the rights to self-determination of Tobago.

This takes care of the original historical record which Tobago had, and which it declared when it decided that it would come where they reserved the rights to look at the rights of self-autonomy.

So we are going back to the 19th Century discussions and earlier when Tobago had its own Legislature, et cetera.
In section 5, clause 5, we are putting into the Constitution that there shall be equality of the status between the island of Trinidad and the island of Tobago and we say these words: “within the sovereign democratic states of Trinidad and Tobago”.

What that means in international law, is that we are a unitary and, therefore, archipelagic State.
The minute we deviate from that, we go from 7,200 square kilometres to 3,200 square kilometres, and then the other territories around Trinidad and Tobago have the claim to say, well, you Trinidad and Tobago, you gave up 4,000 square kilometres of your oil and gas rights arguably.

And what we as a Committee have to do is to be extremely careful to preserve the maximum benefits for the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
So, in summary, we can tighten up the Schedules, ensure that marine parks, planning, et cetera, prevail.

The planning aspect is very simple to do, because we have the Planning and Facilitation Development Bill, we have the Urban and Regional Planners Bill, we have the THA model and now the local government UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 14 2021.05.01 model, so we can deal with planning, no problem, Dr. Armstrong’s observations can be dealt with.
But, this point, the question for Tobago is, the question for Trinidad is: Do you want to go from 7,200 square kilometres to 3,200 square kilometres by saying Tobago wants its own waters and Trinidad wants its own waters?

Madam Chair, I have tried to be as clear as I could and I thank Dr. Tsoiafatt for allowing me to intervene on point one of her submission.
Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, AG, and I thank you for being so clear, especially as I know that today you will have to be in and out and would not be with us for the entire day.

So, thank you very much for that and I hope that the listening and viewing audience and Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus was able to benefit from what you were able to tell us.

Thank you very much.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus, you still have the floor.

Mr. Al-Rawi: If Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus could just check whether she is muted or not?
Madam Chairman: Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus, are you hearing us?

She is trying to connect?

Okay.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Sorry about that.

This technology we are still getting used to.


So, Minister Al-Rawi, I want to thank you for that, bringing clarity and yes, we appreciate your challenges and the Government’s challenges in dealing with this issue but, at the same time, we look forward to some type of definition, whether it is in the Schedules like you suggested, that will bring, you know, clarity as to how we better operate within the space.

So thanks for that.
So thanks for that.

I move on the clause 7, where it suggests that wherever the word “Parliament” is seen the equivalent “Tobago Legislature” should be used.

However, throughout the document, there are inconsistencies with using “Tobago Legislature” interchangeably with “House of Assembly” and sometimes even UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 15 2021.05.01 “Tobago House of Assembly”.

So, I think this needs to be addressed.


One such example is at the bottom of page 6, clause 10(d).

I want to move directly into, perhaps, no.

And, you know, Minister Al-Rawi, you made the statement that you are currently looking at the Fifth and Fourth Schedules and, perhaps, it has saved me going through the extensive discussions on that area, which I wanted to do lower down.
But since you have brought it up, I would like to suggest, since there are that many, would the Government consider the original submission to them stating that, you know, if the Government is defined as to its responsibilities, then we can say, in the Tobago context, that anything outside of the Government’s responsibilities where Tobago is concerned, is the responsibility of Tobago?

And, therefore, that should capture, you know, everything that we should be responsible for on the island.
So, I certainly hope that is one consideration.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, could I before—sorry to interrupt you, Dr. Tsoiafatt- Angus—if I could just address that concern, because it was also raised yesterday.

The reason why we went with the Saint Kitts and Nevis model, which is to be found elsewhere Commonwealth as well, is that it really is a much clearer and precise concept of law to define what Tobago has full autonomy for because of the conflicts of laws consideration.
So, if look at the bodies of the law of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, and then you were to try and amend every single one of those laws to say this is what central governments alone can do, it is an almost never-ending process against saying, this is what Tobago has full and complete autonomy for.
The reason why this method was adopted is that the litigation coming out of the conflicts of laws in states where there is autonomy such as this, demonstrates that it is by far a more certain and specific area of identification to do it the way UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 16 2021.05.01 this Bill proposes now.

So it was not lightly undertaken to elect this model.

It was done out of the, how will the law be operationalized position.
And this is very, very, important because there is a principle in law that law must be specific and clear for it to withstand constitutionality.

If a law is unclear, it is likely to fall into unconstitutionality and has the potential to be struck down for lack of specificity and clarity.

So that is the reason why this methodology was approached.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Correct.

But just to—Minister Al-Rawi, I was referring to the Fifth Schedule in terms of administrating.
I know that is different from Fourth Schedule which treats with the law-making powers.

But I am saying, if we are to administrate, why not consider the areas where, you know, it is clear Trinidad will administrate over those areas and that the rest of the administrative powers will go to Tobago?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Quick answer to that.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yes, I agree with delineating the boundaries of what we are responsible for in the law.
So, currently, you know, with the Fourth Schedule— Mr. Al-Rawi: Quick answer— Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yes.

Mr. Al-Rawi:—we had THA litigation, if you recall.

There were several times in the history—in fact, between 2010 to 2015, we had litigation on the Milshirv aspect, if you recall.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yes.

Mr. Al-Rawi: And what happened there was, there was testing in the court as to what is the autonomy of the THA.
And, therefore, it became settled, when we looked at it using what works well for us, the THA model has worked exceptionally well for Tobago, and the certainty of law worked well for Tobago.

So what we ought to do, is to expand the administrative function, for instance, UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 17 2021.05.01 marine parks ought to be spelled out in addition to parks, so that we are aware of these aspects.
So the reason we went for the Fifth Schedule—and thank you for clarifying—being as specific as it is, to say what Tobago has exclusive autonomy for, is because we have precedence in the courts that tell us, do not touch that area, because you have to go to Tobago and it has exclusive administration for that area.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Okay.

But I welcome that you will be—yes.

Madam Chairman: Can I just also add that we will look at the possibility of also doing an exceptions list.
That was raised and it is something that we will examine.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thank you.

Madam Chairman: So that that will be taken into consideration.

What you are asking will be taken into consideration and we will raise it.

We will look at it, as a Committee.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thank you.

And also, the few items that have been left off of the, I guess, the Tobago law making, like education and health, I hope those areas would also be looked at.

Madam Chairman: Yes, we will.


Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Okay.

One other area.

I know that Minister Al-Rawi may be leaving us, I want to really draw reference to the infrastructure, including air and sea transportation, the wharves and airports and public utilities, which was under our Fifth Schedule of the current Act.

Where would that stand in the new?

Madam Chairman: Yesterday, that was raised and it is an area that we will look at.

What we intend to do is look at the current Act 40.
We are going to look at that, look at what we have, because we did look at that previously in order to come up with the draft.

But we will look at it again and see what we need to do to make sure that we capture everything that needs to be captured.

UNREVISED 18 JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thank you.

Madam Chairman: You are most welcome.

2021.05.01 Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Okay.


I will move on to clause 11, which deals with the executive powers, and I think everybody will rejoice at the removal of section 75(1) to be repealed.
But, you know, I still feel that the language of authority over Tobago is still present with the phrase, regarding the Fifth Schedule: “…unless there is an emergency or unforeseen circumstance…: You know, there is the saying that laws are often made in good times, but must be applicable to bad times, and I think leaving that there without some clarity may lend itself to abuse, you know, if not clearly defined for the future.
But I would like to suggest that, you know, emergencies and unforeseen circumstances, most likely, will have an economic impact and, therefore, any such situation, most likely, natural disasters, can be dealt with through the Fiscal Review Committee.

If there is a coup on the island, that is another definitely unforeseen circumstance and emergency, then that is a matter for national security, which is the responsibility of the Government, anyway.
So, the question is, do we really need that statement in clause 11 or “any unforeseen emergency” can be dealt with in any other area of the body of this document?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, could I intervene here?

May I?

Madam Chairman: Go ahead, Member Al-Rawi.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus, thank you again.

You are raising a very important consideration.


The consideration that is afoot right now is section 75 of the Constitution is that section which gives the general authority to a Cabinet to engage in certain functions.

What we are doing is we are splitting.

So section 53 of the Constitution is where you have law-making powers.

We have now said, let us amend 53 so that Tobago has law-making powers.

The other critical provision UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 19 2021.05.01 in the Constitution that must be amended now is the Cabinet authority.

Section 75 is where the Cabinet would have general instructions and management of Trinidad and Tobago.

We have now split that to say, Tobago has its own effective control and Trinidad does now.

Why did we put the exemptions for emergencies?


The reason is that, in emergencies, the Cabinet of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago has that emergency override, temporarily, and let me explain why.

An emergency only lasts as long as the beginning of the emergency.

So, for example, under the Public Health Regulations, which we do overnight, I amended, by way of instruction of the Cabinet, in an emergency setting yesterday, I amended the Public Health Regulations at close to midnight last night.
It may mean that you are called, from time to time, to have immediate interventions and that you do not have the authority to reach out.

If we did not put the override, it means that an emergency could pass you by in circumstances where you could not reach your counterparts in Tobago for one reason or the other.

Currently, a Cabinet is comprised and, in law, of the Prime Minister and the Attorney General.
It does not include everybody in the Cabinet, simply because there may be circumstances well understood in law, in the history of laws, because you want a bare minimum in absolute cases of emergency.

In the example of the United States, et cetera, that is why the President of the United States has Executive authority to flip the switch, to launch the nuclear codes.
There are circumstances where you have an absolute emergency to act upon, and then the general consensus of everybody being involved, becomes a problem.

If we do not have that exemption, it means that the law or the action which is taken, may be viewed to be unconstitutional or ultra vires, meaning, outside of law-making capacity, in which case, all consequences that flow from the decision, UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 20 2021.05.01 will be open to suit and suit means damages and destruction of the national structure and economy.

So this override would only prevail in emergency cases, but an emergency does not continue for the entire time of the event.

The minute you have the opportunity to contact others, the emergency inclusion begins to dissipate.

I hope I have lent some clarity in that regard.


Mr. de Freitas: But, Madam Chair, let me just add to what— Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thank you, Minister Al-Rawi.
Mr. de Freitas:—the AG is saying, because we had this discussion yesterday as well, and just for the clarification of Dr. Angus, Tobago has its own Emergency Management Authority, and I think what was being raised yesterday was, who determines what is an emergency, so that this override kicks in, and the intention was never that anybody can just jump up and define what an emergency is and, therefore, that scapegoat clause comes in.
The fact is, Tobago does have its own Emergency Management Authority, and as much as what the AG is saying, it is envisioned that a situation where such an emergency management authority cannot, for lack of a better phrase, handle the emergency that is now facing them, that some outside intervention needs to take place to assist and I used the example yesterday of a hurricane passing and flattening Tobago in its entirety.
Well then, obviously, your Emergency Management Authority would not be able to function in a situation like that.

And as the AG rightly stated, it is not for the entirety of the emergency, but the beginning parts where you would need assistance from outside to come in and get you operational again.

And so, that was the intention.

But, obviously, if it needed to be worded differently to sort of say that, then we can definitely take a look at that, Dr. Angus.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thank you.


Madam Chairperson, sorry.

Madam Chairman: Go ahead, Dr. Angus.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 21 2021.05.01 Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: And, yes, perhaps it is something that we need to look at, because like you said, you know, it has been a recurring decimal, so to speak, with various submissions.

So, perhaps, it is something that we can look at, but I understand what, you know, the explanations that you all have given.
So, we move to clause 18, you know, in keeping with the United Nations, and clause 18 deals with the Tobago Legislature.

In keeping with the United Nations Sustainable Development Goal No.

5, I would like to see the replacement of “Assemblyman” with “Member of the Assembly” or “Assembly Member” or “Legislative Member” and wherever possible to apply neutral terms throughout the Bill.

Madam Chairman: Yeah, sure.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thanks.


Now, clause 18, also deals with constituting the House of Assembly, which shall begin with the election of a person to be the Presiding Officer.

And I would like to—and also the fact that you do have the House as to how it is actually comprised, given the premier and the deputy premier and 15—I think 15 representatives, 10 additional councillors and your Presiding Officer and, of course, the Tobago Legislature now has the President.
You know, I live through the all 12, and I was part of the all 12 in the House of Assembly back in 2013, and three seats are not that far off from 12.
As a former Presiding Officer, I know the value of ensuring that we have the level of oversight and conversation that could occur from two sides, and now we will even have independent voices, and I am wondering whether the current construct will guarantee that we will have that level of oversight or, perhaps, we need to consider challenging the House of Assembly that once it gets started, that you are giving five spots.
They will then determine the process and the vehicle by which to fill those spots, but those spots should be guaranteed to youth and civil UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 22 2021.05.01 society and, in some way, coming up with a vehicle to bring those in.
And that way we can ensure—and those are definitely, they have nothing to do with administration or party—and that way we will always ensure that regardless of what happens at the polls that we will have some voices that will not be always along party lines or the majority, and that you also have representation from youth, not just one person, but significant representation from youth in the Tobago laws that we will be drafting that would not just be about us today, but for the youth of tomorrow and also civil society.
So I am challenging that there is some way that we can put those five availability spots and challenge the new House that, in their first six months, that they come up with a process and a vehicle to, you know, fill those spots that will be a standing procedure, over time, in now having a complete House.

Madam Chairman: Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus, let me just indicate that what we saw taking place in Grenada—I am going to use Grenada as the example, where all 12 seats went to one party.
I think Grenada may have more than 12 seats—where all seats went to one party.

The Grenada Legislature passed a law where they now can co-opt civil society to do that oversight of the government.

So that is quite, you know, quite possible.

So it is something that the Assembly itself, the Legislature itself can do, because they would be able to make laws.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yes, and I certainly would hope that they would be considered.
Madam Chairman: And I just want to stress that it is for the oversight.

So it is to work with the Committees, because remember we have indicated that the new Legislature would have a committee system, and when you build out that system you can add something of that nature.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: But, you know, I was considering going further than just the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 23 2021.05.01 committee system that they would also be part of the House and the debates in terms of, you know, delivering on whatever laws that we may be having that they are constantly part of the House.

Madam Chairman: I understand what you are saying but I am just explaining to you what is a possibility, what is a possible system because— Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thank you.

Madam Chairman:—the oversight is really done through the committee system.

Okay?
Okay?

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Okay.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: I hope that it is really considered.

Thank you.

In addition to that, I believe, in moving on to clause 19, the composition of the mediation committee, and I think everyone so far has weighed in that—and I too would like to weigh in that I think that can be a bit counterproductive, the way it is, you know, suggested to be created.
And I would like to suggest perhaps an independent body to chair this committee and it should comprise equal attendance from both Cabinet and Executive Council, and, you know, this is an area where we can have equality at the table in defending positions as part of this dispute.

We hope that it would not always get to that level but at least it is a way out where persons can feel comfortable that this is, you know, an independent mediator mediating for both sides.
Madam Chairman: This has come to the attention of the Committee and we have undertaken to look at it again.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thank you.

I believe we spoke about the schedules before but I would not go into it much, but I have to ask, we spoke about cemeteries but a crematorium was not mentioned, so hopefully that could be added to the review.

I UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 24 2021.05.01 have one question concerning making laws for persons who are not citizens, and to me that seems to be a grey area as we are not responsible for immigration matters, so I do not know whether that needs to be looked at in terms of whether we really would have jurisdiction to make laws for persons who are non-citizens on the island since it may cross over into immigration areas.
Madam Chairman: Well, as we have indicated, foreign affairs, National Security, including Immigration, will remain the purview of the national Parliament.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yes.

Correct.

And what I was noting is that on the Fourth Schedule you actually have it there.

Madam Chairman: At 11?

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yes.

Madam Chairman: Employment of persons who are not citizens.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Correct, and making laws for that.
So I just wondered, you know, that grey area, how it would work with us.

But it is something that you all can look at if you think it can work, of course we would love to make laws for them but perhaps it is an area that could be examined.
Noting clause 12(6), regarding the Presiding Officer and the—I guess the Secretaries in terms of their functions and remuneration, and in that clause it implies that the Presiding Officer is a full-time position, unlike the Speaker in Parliament, and therefore I feel there is an opportunity to create an independent legislature; a pathway that has been well ventilated by parliaments worldwide, and perhaps some consideration could be given to starting it because, you know, the role of the Presiding Officer is already full-time but the mere fact that, you know, you cannot work anywhere else, you cannot engage in any other trade.
So it must mean it is a full-time position and maybe this is opportunity to maybe have a pilot as to how an independent legislature can work as part of a smaller legislature and UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 25 2021.05.01 that may lead to, you know, groundbreaking for the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago to actually have what they also want, which is to have some level of parliamentary legislative independence.
I am also requesting more clarity on the direction of the Tobago Legislature in relation between the Presiding Officer and the Clerk as similarly outlined for a Secretary to a Division and administrator, and we can find that in terms of clause 20 would refer to that.
Madam Chairperson, while more than 6.8 per cent was expected and definitely will be needed for Tobago to accelerate its development, I appreciate that no ceiling has been put in place, and I applaud that, and therefore there is an opportunity for the FRC to recommend increases as required.
In clause 23, while I understand the role and functions of the Fiscal Review Committee, I still believe there is a role for the Dispute Resolution Commission and that the composition and the role of the DRC should be adopted from the current THA Act to ensure that there is a space with an independent chair to resolve our financial disputes.

As such— Madam Chairman: That matter will be re-examined because it has been raised by other stakeholders and we appreciate that.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yes.


Madam Chairman: So it will be re-examined.

Let me just bring you back to clause 12 where you talked about the independent Presiding Officer and so on, those are issues that would have to be dealt with by the SRC, issues of salary, issues of how the position is viewed.

And so we understand the importance and we will bring that to the attention because we have had some discussions.
Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Madam Chairperson, by the mere fact that you are putting into law that the Presiding Officer nor Secretaries can engage in any other business nor any other trade, it is very clear that it must be a full-time position.

I do not UNREVISED 26 JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 think that, you know— 2021.05.01 Madam Chairman: Yes.

So in terms of the issue of salaries, allowances and so on, those are issues that will be dealt with there.
Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yes.

Madam Chairman: But we recognize the importance of the position and so we will try to ensure that the significance of the position is maintained in whatever way produced.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thank you.

Madam Chairman: You are welcome.


Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: In clause 24, although it has been implied, I think, you know, it should be clearly outlined how Tobago gets its allocation from Trinidad and in keeping with the quality statement to be written as perhaps the 6.8 per cent lump sum at the beginning of the financial year.

Madam Chairman: Yes.

That was raised and we will look at if that needs to be included.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Thank you.


Clause 28, in consideration of receiving—and this has to do with borrowing, and in consideration of receiving approval from the Minister for borrowing, I would like to suggest that a ceiling formula is developed for borrowing where the Tobago island Government would only require approval from the House of Assembly to borrow up to that ceiling and not the Minister.
And anything above the derived formula, that formula, any loan above that amount would then require the approval of the Minister of Finance and it could even be done through the FRC.

And I hope that this is something that would be seriously considered, you know, in terms of just coming up with that formula and saying, you know, below this level the Assembly can borrow.

Once you begin going above that level you have to get the approval of the Minister.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 27 2021.05.01 Madam Chairperson, about three years ago I met with a Wales representative to the United Kingdom Parliament who told me that autonomy is a journey of many steps.

They did not get to where they were with one pass through Parliament, so his suggestion was, get as much as you can get for the current step and know that in the near future the process for greater autonomy starts.
So while we set about making these laws in good times so we can survive in bad times, it is important to nurture relationships and foster teamwork to create harmony for the overall good.

I must admit, my initial disappointment has been converted somewhat to hope and a bit of excitement given the flexible approach that has been offered to us with, you know, you all being able to accept our recommendations and even, you know, indicate to us that you have already started the research overnight.
I therefore wish to express many thanks to the Committee for your contribution, patience and dedication throughout this process.

Your job is by no means an easy one.

I know that you would be judged for years to come based on your decisions and actions after this process is completed.

Tobagonians will be eagerly awaiting the outcome and I certainly hope that the harmonious process to date will be continued to the end.
I wish to thank all the persons who were open to frank discussions with me on this topic which allowed me to have a better appreciation of the road Tobagonians want to take at this time.

At the end of the day we do have options and every one of them will have consequences.

We have to determine what we are prepared to live with once these decisions are made.

I am therefore calling on everyone to get involved and send your views to the Parliament any way you can.
This is not and should not be a party issue but an issue for everyone to get involved with.

This is a Tobago issue.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much for your participation, Dr. UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 28 Tsoiafatt-Angus.

2021.05.01 Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Madam Chairperson, I just—Madam Chairperson, I just wanted to say— Madam Chairman: Oh, sorry, sorry.

I thought you were finished.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: Yeah.

Madam Chairman: Sorry.


Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus:—that as a former Presiding Officer, I know first-hand that the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago is seen as the leader of parliaments around the region by your bold and innovative changes you have made within the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago.

And therefore on behalf of Tobagonians, I say that we are not asking you to break any law but to set new standards and shape the law to meet our expectations.
We are not self-seeking and selfish enough to have the country experience loss, but we are determined that both islands must prosper.

We are not a proud people but we want to feel joy about who we are, where we live and who we are becoming, side by side we will stand.
So as I close, Madam Chairperson, Tobago challenges this Committee to innovate with the rules such that those same experts of yesteryear will now be seeking you as the new experts to guide them to their next level in the upgrade of their own autonomy.

So I say thank you again to the Committee, Madam Chairperson.
Madam Chairman: Thank you very much for your contribution, Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus, and we are as passionate as you are to make sure that we bring for Tobago the best legislation to achieve what is necessary to be achieved.

Thank you very much.

Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus: You are welcome.

Madam Chairman: We have Ms. Campbell who is waiting to come in.

Ms. Campbell, please take the floor.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 29 2021.05.01 Ms. Campbell: Just to clarify, are you referring to Janae Campbell?

Madam Chairman: Yes.

Ms. Campbell: All right.

So I am here to represent the Tobago Youth Council as President and I would just like to express that it is my esteemed privilege to be a part of this consultation process.

So my contribution would just be pretty much brief.
Overall, I do not really have much contention with the Bill presented, you know, we as Tobagonians can be a little bit more considerate and try to, you know, exercise a little tact and understanding.

However, my main concern, as with many other Tobagonians, is with the 6.8 per cent allocation.

And as a Tobago youth, 18 years of age, President of the Tobago Youth Council, I would just like to express my sentiments in saying that I think that that is an insufficient amount to really transform the island.
I know that the present draft Bill stated that, you know, persons can advocate in each financial year for this figure to be increased but I think if we are setting a precedent, I think we should set it high.

And, you know, as I look at the political landscape I see persons argue that, well, you know, Tobago’s population is just a mere 60—well, just 60,000 approximately, which just represents a small percentage of the total population of Trinidad and Tobago.
But while I understand that, I would just like to argue that Tobago should not just be considered by its population.

When you think of the country, we are speaking about Trinidad and Tobago and Tobago should not be seen as a dependent.

So as a proud Tobagonian I have problems with, “Well, Tobago should be allocated this amount of money from Trinidad”, you know, it is one country and I believe that the idea of Tobago being lesser is a colonial mindset.
And I am in no way trying to impute improper motives by saying that that is the perception of this Parliament, I am just saying that this is something that we need to take into UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 30 2021.05.01 consideration, because we all know that if we compare the development of Trinidad and Tobago we would recognize that Tobago is far behind.
So if we really want to advance our development, if we want Tobago to really begin meeting the needs of international market, if we really want Tobago to raise our standard, then I think that 6.8 per cent minimum would not work, especially considering the fact that we are far behind.
Additionally, in the Fifth Schedule it stated that we would not have control over meteorology and I am also thinking that that is something that can be reconsidered because as a young person opportunities are very rare in Tobago, especially those kinds of opportunities.

And many of us yearn for these opportunities whereby persons can actually study these fields and actually gain employment over here, and that all goes hand in hand with really developing Tobago.

Right?
Right?

So I am just suggesting that these matters could be reconsidered to ensure that Tobago has its fair share and Tobago is really advancing in the way that it should, and that is all.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms. Campbell.

I can see you are very passionate about Trinidad and Tobago and I appreciate that.
I wanted to just allay your fears, when we say that meteorological services would not be under the jurisdiction of the administration of Tobago, it is just because that is a national service; meteorology is national in scope, so that is the only reason.

It does not mean that you cannot go and study meteorology or get a job in that service, but it is just that it is national in scope.

So it is something that would not be for Tobago alone.
But we have heard what you had to say and we appreciate you being so passionate about what you had to say.

Thank you very much for that.

Thank you for your intervention.

Mrs. Sagramsingh-Sooklal: Madam Chair, before we proceed, I would just like UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 31 2021.05.01 to express how very impressed I was by Ms. Campbell and more so young people’s participation in this consultation and recognizing how important the youths’ voices are in the drafting of this legislation.
So I just want the record to reflect how very, very much, as a relatively younger parliamentarian, how very impressed I was with Ms. Campbell and her team of course in recognizing the responsibility that the young voices play in the drafting of this legislation.

And Ms. Campbell, as one of the younger members of this Committee, you can rest assure that the voices of the youths are being heard and considered in the drafting of this legislation.

So thank you, Madam Chair.


Madam Chairman: You are very welcome.

Mr. Cummings: Madam Chair— Madam Chairman: Member Cummings.

Mr. Cummings: Yes, Madam Chair, I want to join with my colleague in commending the representative, Ms. Campbell, from the Tobago Youth Council.

She was very clear on her points.


She was very articulate and I want to also give her the assurance that this Committee considers, very seriously, all the comments coming forward and we will be taking on board the comments coming from Ms. Campbell and the Tobago Youth Council.

Ms. Cudjoe: Madam Chair, as a former President of the Tobago Youth Council, I want to commend and congratulate Ms. Campbell.

I think that the future of Tobago and the young people in Tobago are certainly in good hands.
I feel very pleased and very proud by your presentation today, so congratulations to you and the rest of the team at the Tobago Youth Council.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

As a former youth, I want to congratulate Ms. Campbell—[Member laughs]—as a former youth.

All right.

Now, I understand Margaret Parks is waiting to come in.

Ms.

Parks?

UNREVISED 32 JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Ms.

Parks: Yes, Chairman, I am here.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.


You have the floor.

Ms.

Parks: I do not know what is going on with my camera.

Madam Chairman: That is okay but we can hear you.

2021.05.01 Ms.

Parks: It is afternoon already.

Good afternoon, ladies—honourable ladies and gentlemen of the Joint Select Committee of the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago.

The host has asked me to start my video.

We are already there—oh, yes, thank you.

I am very happy and grateful to you— Madam Chairman: All right, we are seeing you.
We are seeing you.

We are seeing you so go ahead.

Ms.

Parks: Okay.

I am not very technology-oriented so you have to excuse me a little bit.

Yes, I was saying that I am very happy and grateful to you for giving me this opportunity to address you today on this very important matter as it pertains to the welfare and the future of Tobago.

Now after carefully perusing the documents from the JSC, I respectfully wish to submit the following comments on the Bills.
I also took, during the perusal of those Bills—I took into consideration the amendment Bills that were submitted in 2016.

And before I address specific areas of the Bills, I just wanted to make a few preliminary comments and one of which I think Dr. Angus mentioned, and that has to do with the gender bias in the Constitution.

There needs to be a significant effort made to review the entire Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago and the use of gender bias in the document.
The male gender pervades throughout that document and can even be found in the current draft.

We are now in 2021 and have moved on from 1976 when the original Constitution was drafted, mostly by males, I presume.

We now have a female President who in our Constitution is still being referred to as “he” UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 33 2021.05.01 and “him”.
Our draft Constitution has and still cause the Members of the Tobago Legislature Assemblymen, so I am hoping that somewhere along the line, probably at the end of your consultations you all will have a look at that whole issue of gender as it relates to the laws and the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago.

I just need to give a little clarity on who Margaret Parks is.
I was a part of the initial—the first group of Tobagonians under the aegis of the Calder Hall Accord that set out to find what Tobagonians wanted for their island.

It now pains me to see what is being offered to us as autonomy or self-government.

In our journey around the island our group found that the majority of persons with whom we interacted had a preference for a federal federation of the two islands.

The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill and the Tobago island Government Bill however did not go that route.

Even so what is being offered to Tobagonians differ significantly from that which was sent to the Parliament from Tobago in 2016.

And that is thanks to the JSC because I believe that you all had that Bill as you looked into what you could take out of it to give Tobago what it wants.

I must point out, however, that it is very important for us as Tobagonians to know our history.
I think many of us do not know our history and because of some of the things that are happening now, we need to get back to that.
We do not know—when we do not know we will not let ourselves be bullied by any “Johnny- come-lately” who wants to shove things down our throat; most if all of us have grown up hearing about our island being labelled as a ward of Trinidad and are therefore subject to the colonial mentality that Tobago is a poor, undeveloped island incapable of supporting itself and waiting on the handout from the colonial master that replaced the British.
So to think of having autonomy and self-determination may be alien to them but not to those who know the history of UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 34 2021.05.01 Tobago to have autonomy, self-determination.

It must be free from external control and have its own statehood in Government.

Let me say up front that I am not happy with what is before us in this Bill.
I recognize that it requires a three-quarters majority in the House of Representatives and a two-thirds majority in the Senate to pass into law.

There are, however, some things that need to be adjusted or changed before I can give it my support.

I will not go through the specific areas clause by clause but I have pulled out a few of the things that jumped out at me when I looked at the Bills.

One is the definition of Tobago.


Unfortunately, I did not hear the presentations that went yesterday and I have heard those that went today.

I listened carefully to the AG but I will still say what I have to say with regard to that.

Madam Chairman: Ms.

Parks, we did cover that area and I understand that you heard what the AG said, and I know he more or less said what he said yesterday.

So if you want to move on to another point, we would be very happy for that.
We have about 15 other people who want to participate.

Ms.

Parks: All right.

Okay.

I will speed it up.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Ms.

Parks: You indicated that the Planning and Development Act would indicate some issues relating to the definition?

Did I hear you say that?

Madam Chairman: I said that that was a possibility.

Ms.

Parks: Okay.

Madam Chairman: Okay?

So we can move on from the definition.

Ms.

Parks: Okay, just give me a second.


When I went through the document, and I know we all know that there is a stalemate now with the current Tobago House of UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 35 2021.05.01 Assembly, where there is no mechanism in the law, or so they say, for breaking a tie, I could not find anywhere in the new Bill a tie-breaking mechanism.

The increase in the electoral districts from 12 to 15 does not eliminate the possibility of a tie.
There are more than two political parties or independent candidates in a race.

If that happens, there could still be a possibility of a tie.

And I am thinking that we should not let it happen, as happened in the previous THA Act, that we do not foresee a tie.

We should foresee a tie, even if it does not occur and we should put something in place, should it occur.

Madam Chairman: Let me just indicate that the legislation that will be dealt with by the Parliament would not be able to do that.
What we would do is ensure that the legislature, the Tobago island government legislature, has the power in order to put Standing Orders in place that will deal with that situation.

So it will not be one of the clauses in the Bills that are before us.

It will be dealt with through the Standing Orders.

As you know, the national Parliament has Standing Orders that deal with all those kinds of issues.

So it would be a similar kind of set up with the Standing Orders of the legislature for the Tobago island.
Ms.

Parks: Okay.

Thanks for the clarification.

Madam Chairman: You are welcome.

Ms.

Parks: The other issue that I want to talk about is the size of the Tobago legislature.

In my opinion, the one that is being proposed is much too large.

There is a proposal of 26 persons, 15 of whom are elected, and I think the other one—10 are councillors and one is the Presiding Officer.

It crossed my mind, in the current position, I am wondering where are they going to put these 26 persons?
They would have to get a new House of Assembly building, I suspect.

And then, we would lose some of the historical impact that is currently in that area.

I would like to propose, not 15 Assembly persons, but 13.

I will also like to UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 36 2021.05.01 propose five councillors instead of 10; three for the majority and two for the minority.

No councillors should be appointed by the President.
I have heard of the reasons why they think the President should be able to appoint councillors to the Tobago House of Assembly, and I sort of understand that, but I would like to see us keep the President away from politics, whoever he or she may be.

Because, if you recall, the President is usually nominated by the House of Representatives, the party in governance there, and usually the majority vote carries, and that President may or may not be beholden to whoever political party that has elevated them.
Madam Chairman: So, Ms.

Parks, let me just indicate that the function of electing the President is merely that.

It is a function.

And after that, the President does not operate in a political way.

The President is apolitical and the President is the President of Trinidad and Tobago.

Let me also indicate that in the Parliament, in the Senate, as you well know, the Independent Senators are selected by the President in his or her own discretion, so there is no political interference.
So let us not draw the President into this, please, because the President is apolitical.

Ms.

Parks: Thank you, Madam Chairman, I hear you.

But remember what I stated initially, is that the recommendation for the Constitution of the Tobago legislature has too many persons.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

We heard that.

So if you want to go on to your next point?

Ms.

Parks: I was merely suggesting one of the ways that we could reduce those numbers.

Madam Chairman: Understood.

Thank you.

Ms.


Parks: I believe that we should do more with less and not create just jobs for the boys.

There is too much money that will be going into salaries and perks and not enough for development.

I am hearing 6.8 and I am hearing, “Oh that may not UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 37 2021.05.01 be enough”, and there is already this feeling in some parts of the national community that Tobago gets too much of what belongs to Trinidad.

That is why I will go back, it is important that we properly define Tobago and give Tobago all the benefits of what its maritime boundaries permit.

We should really educate our population as to what delineates Tobago from Trinidad, and what Tobago brings to the economy of Trinidad.
So I am saying that to say, we are not supposed to be adding people, people, people, and I have already found that Bill has so many new things, all of which will call for money, and then we will get another story about how much money has gone to Tobago, and why and how.

I am almost finished.

Madam Chairman: Ms.

Parks, let me just remind you that the money that you are talking about is not Trinidad’s money or Tobago’s money.

It is the money that belongs to the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
So it is not a question of Trinidad’s money and Tobago’s money.

It is our money.

Ms.

Parks: I hear you, Madam Chair, but I am just repeating some of the things that have been said in the wider national community about the allocations that are being made out of the national budget to Tobago.
I know it is Trinidad and Tobago’s money, but I am trying to find a way that in terms of the filling of all these various positions, not only the Assemblymen and the councillors and the whatever, but in the Bill there are several other areas that the House of Assembly or the Tobago legislature will now have responsibility for, and those consist of people.

And I am saying, I heard someone say, I cannot remember which one, that 6.8 may not be enough.
We need money for development and to bring Tobago out of its current position, and that is all I am saying.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

All right.

You want to move on?

Thank you.

Understood.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 38 2021.05.01 Ms.

Parks: Yes.

I have two more points.

The words “public service” and “civil service”, I found being used interchangeably in the documents, and I think we need to stick to one or the other.

I think I prefer public service.


It is the more concurrent term, and public servant instead of civil servant.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Thank you.

Ms.

Parks: The other thing I had an issue with was the word “Premiere”.

I do not know how the term “Premiere” was arrived at.

But to me, it reminded me of the old colonial days when we had a Premiere before a Prime Minister.

So I do not know if the Premiere means “Prime Minister in waiting”.

That is just being a little facetious.


What is wrong with “Chief Secretary”?

Madam Chairman: Nobody said there is anything wrong with it, but “Premiere” is term that is normally used.

Chief Secretary is not a term that is found normally, so that is why we made the change.

Ms.

Parks: It does not matter.

It is who we put there.

It is just I am entitled to give my little opinion on what I have found in the Bill.
The other thing that stood out to me was the involvement of the premiere in appointments and transfers of staff being made by—Tobago is a small place, a very small place, and somehow I do not like the idea of politicians getting involved in public service matters where staff are being allocated.

So once an individual is qualified and competent, no politician should be able to prevent them from being appointed to any position in Tobago—too small.
Dr. Tsoiafatt Angus mentioned something, and I made a note of it because I also found the inconsistencies in the Bill: Tobago Island Government, Tobago Legislature, House of Assembly, and to me, it was a little confusing.

Perhaps, at the end of all of this, you all may need to put a glossary at the end of it, of the Bill or something, to explain these various issues.

UNREVISED 39 JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

2021.05.01 Ms.
2021.05.01 Ms.

Parks: Finally, I have a question.

This question arises out of the pension scheme that I saw in the Bill—somewhere in the Bill.

As I said, I did not note clause by clause, I just made my observations.

Madam Chairman: We appreciate that.

Thank you very much.

We will look at the issue of the pension scheme, and we appreciate your intervention.

Ms.
Ms.

Parks: But particularly, I wanted to find out whether that pension scheme would be very attractive because there are members, former members— Madam Chairman: We will examine that.

Ms.

Parks:—who have not been able to get a pension.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

We will examine that.

Ms.

Parks: Thank you very much— Madam Chairman: We appreciate it.

Ms.

Parks:—for the time that you have given me.

Madam Chairman: We have Ishla Bedlow.

Ms. Bedlow: Yes, good afternoon.


Mr. Chairman: Let me say, and I am saying this for all who are hearing, that what we would like for you to do, and everyone who is coming from henceforth, is if you can raise new points that have not been raised before, we would be very appreciative of that.

So if you have new points that had not been raised previously by other speakers, we will take those points.

Thank you very much.

Ms. Bedlow, you have the floor.

Ms. Bedlow: Good afternoon again to everyone.


Madam Chairman: We are hearing you.

Go ahead, please.

Ms. Bedlow: So I would like to say good afternoon to everyone.

I listened to all the contributions that were made yesterday by the different individuals, and I took UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 40 2021.05.01 notes of everything that was said, and the feedback that you all gave.
At this current moment, I realize that most of the points that I had that they already pointed them out.

Dr. Tsoiafatt Angus made some very, very, very good points this morning, and I know you all will be taking them into consideration.

So, at this moment, I do not have anything further to say, but I would like to say congratulations to how you all are conducting these meeting.

You all are very understanding and continue the good work, and thank you for allowing us to share our contributions.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much for that, and we are very pleased that you were able to participate.

We have Juliet James.

Ms. James, you have the floor.

Ms. James: Good afternoon to the Committee, and all the persons listening and watching on social media.

I too want to thank you all for the opportunity to engage us.

And for those persons who took part, thank you as well for raising our voices.
Some of the things, of course, Dr. Tsoiafatt Angus did highlight that I totally agree with, just the neutralization of the terms and not genderizing the Bill.

Of course, you know we are very passionate about the definition of Tobago.

It has been highlighted by all speakers.

I know the AG has tried his best to let us know that not much could be done about it because of the economic block or the exclusive economic block that we would have in maritime.
I am also pleased to hear that in terms of the marine parks—as a daughter of a fisherman, I am very passionate about our marine waters, our waters, and hope that there is somewhere in the Bill that it could be addressed for specifically the administrative powers of Tobago.

Another thing I would like to highlight is based on the finance aspect, there is the composition of the Fiscal Review Commission.
I noted yesterday Mr. de Freitas’s response in terms of the 6.8, it is not the ceiling, but there is an opportunity for an increase appropriation.

But I do think that the composition, UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 41 2021.05.01 which says five persons, one being the Minister of Finance, the Secretary for Finance and two other members from the Cabinet, I think that it is heavily weighted in the favour of the voices that are non-Tobagonian voices and it would be very pleasing, moving forward, that this becomes a bipartisan commission, a commission that can actually have the voice of the minority.
So in the case where we have two Members from Cabinet, we should actually have one Member from Cabinet and one member from the minority.

That is a consideration I hope that the Committee will be able to take on board and maybe to address.

Areas of the Fifth Schedule—there have been a lot of areas in the Fifth Schedule that have been taken away from the Act 40 of 1996.
State lands, forestry, environment, Customs and Excise, licensing, Town and Country Planning, they have not appeared in the proposed Bill in the Fifth Schedule.

I do not know if these areas are engulfed in what is here but I do know that in finance, the Secretary of Finance has control except the central and commercial borrowing external foreign affairs.

I notice that Customs and Excise has been taken away and is back into the national coffers.

So I do not know what is the reason for removing those.
I did note that the AG said that you all are going to look again at the Fifth Schedule, what was in Act 40, and try to bring across almost everything back into the proposal.

Madam Chairman: Ms. James, thanks very much for your input.

Let me just clarify that planning and development is there.

It is just that these areas are accepted, which is National Framework for Sustainable Development, National Monitor and Evaluation, National Statistics, the National Trust and Vision 2030.
That is really because it is national in scope, so it will encompass Trinidad and Tobago.

But planning and development for Tobago is kept in Tobago and under the purview of the Tobago island government.

So it is just these areas that we have UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 42 2021.05.01 accepted from the whole issue of planning and development, because they would take into consideration the wider national Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
So planning and development is certainly there in Tobago and will remain in Tobago.

Ms. James: Right, and what about environment?

Madam Chairman: Yes.

As you know now the environment is under the Ministry of Planning and Development, so that will be part and parcel of Tobago’s— Tobago will deal with environmental issues, as they are doing now.

You know you say clean, green, safe and serene?

That will continue for Tobago.

It will not be taken over by the central government or anybody else.
Ms. James: Okay.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: You are very welcome.

Ms. James: That will basically be my contribution for today.

As I said before, most of the points have been highlighted by Dr. Tsoiafatt Angus and I stand on her back with some of those points in terms of the neutral terms.

For me, the only thing is that the composition of the Fiscal Review Commission, I think, should really have a place for the minority, the minority in the Assembly.
So where there are two Cabinet Members, I think it should be allocated to one minority and one Cabinet Member, so the voices of Tobago would be more weighted in that direction.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much for your contribution.

I will let in the next person shortly, but I just wanted to make the point that the reason that we are saying that if there are new points, we would be very happy to hear them.
It is not to stymie anybody from speaking, but it is just that we have given the undertaking that we will cover and we will deal with, as a Committee, a number of points that have already been raised, and we will be giving that undertaking and we will do that.

In addition to that, we have about 15 or more other people who would like to UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 43 2021.05.01 speak.
It is not to stop anybody from speaking, as some of you seem to be thinking.

It is certainly not for that purpose, but it is certainly to ensure that we get the richness of everybody’s contribution.

We really would like to seek new points because we have heard certain points continuously, and we have responded to those points.

So if there are new points, we definitely need to get those new points on the table.

It is not to stop anybody from being heard.


So those of you who may think that, please disabuse your minds.

I understand James Trim is now wishing to speak.

Mr.

Trim, you have the floor.

Mr.

Trim: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.

Good evening to you and the Committee.

I would like to express my appreciation and thanks to the Joint Select Committee for their hard work and commitment to this country.
I made some submissions earlier by email and I just would like to highlight, as you have indicated, some of these points have been addressed forcefully and adequate in my judgment, so I need not go over them.

However, I would like to address an item which has to do with the Tobago Government having jurisdiction over the use and development of an array of renewable and alternative resources within 100 kilometres, I dare say, outside of its borders.
In other words, I am not asking for a definition, as explained by the AG, of Tobago’s boundaries but rather if Tobago would be given jurisdiction to address renewable resources and alternative resources within a particular limit, I want to suggest 100 kilometres.

The reason for that is, let us suppose that we want to establish like wind farms or solar on the maritime or on the sea, for example, that those things should fall within the jurisdiction of the Tobago Government.
In other words— Madam Chairman: Mr.

Trim, we did mention that yesterday and we will ensure that that is clear.

Because, as I said before, environmental issues and the mere fact UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 44 2021.05.01 that Tobago has already stated in its economic development plan that it is moving more assiduously to green energy, that is not going to be prevented in any way.

Mr.

Trim: Right.

Thank you so much.


Madam Chairman: So please understand that, and we did say that.

I did say that yesterday, as the Minister responsible for the environment.

Mr.

Trim: Perhaps I missed you on that.

Thank you for the clarification.

One other point I would like to address.

In more recent times, we have been seeing this whole business of migrants and people who are seeking to be refugees and all the rest of it.
I wonder whether or not we should consider that Tobago be established as a non-refugee place.

Now, the reason why I am saying that is that more recently I saw where in several countries, whether it is in Kenya, whether it is in Germany or what have you, we have got people who are seeking refugee status.

I agree with the hon.

Prime Minister and the Government that that is not a type of thing that we would want to entertain.
I am wondering whether or not we can specifically address the Tobago space as a non-refugee status.

Madam Chair, the other matters that I wanted to raise, as you have pointed out, they have been taken care of by other speakers and I accept that.

In fact, one other final thing, I just want to endorse the last speaker with respect to the size of the professionals on the Assembly.
To me, it is rather bureaucratic and I ask that in my submission that it appears to be somewhat burdensome, and that we should revisit the number of persons, or positions rather, and these positions should be subject to, perhaps, the position description or job analysis and determine their appropriateness.

Thank you so much, Madam Chair, and also the JSC for allowing me this opportunity.

Have a good day and thank you for your service.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr.

Trim.


We would look at those UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 45 2021.05.01 points that you have raised, the non-refugee point and the issue with the public service in Tobago.

The next person who is available is Shirley Cooke.

Sorry.

Max James.

Mr. James, you have the floor.

Mr. James, are you hearing us?

Okay.

If Mr. James is not available, I will invite Shirley Cooke.

Is it Cooke?

Mr. James: Yes.


Madam Chairman: Shirley Cooke?

Mr. James: Hello.

Madam Chairman: Or, Max James.

Mr. James: Yes.

Madam Chairman: All right.

Mr. James, you have the floor.

Mr. James: Right.

And good morning again to you, Madam Chairman, and to the members of the Committee.

No stranger to you and these kinds of discussions.


I take into consideration what you have said so that I will try to be very brief having regard to the fact that you stated that other members or participants would have made certain contributions.

So I will try to be somewhat tangential and not deal in a substantive matter but perhaps some of the points that have been made already, some of those—some of which I have not heard.
However, I want to look at the philosophy that would have engaged the Committee, as it were.

Now, I want to quote the Prime Minister in his address on Friday the 9th of March, 2018, in preparing his Government for this particular exercise, and he gave the following undertaking.

The PNM believes that Tobagonians must be primarily responsible for the growth and development of the island of Tobago and its people.
Under the PNM, PNM members of the Parliament are mandated by the Tobago Council to pursue the follow objectives, i.e.

engage the national government to facilitate efforts to achieve democratic self-government for Tobago in keeping with the aspirations of Tobago.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 46 2021.05.01 So that, Madam Chairman, when I saw what was presented before us, I could not disagree more with what was presented in a general sense, there are some good areas of the Bill, let me say that out front, on my own personal inspiration, there are some good areas.

However, the general purport of the proposed Bills are cause for great concern.
I recall when our founding father, when we refer to him, went to England, the Queen and the English did not say, well, you can do this or you can do this, or you cannot do this and you cannot do that.

This present Bill seems to circumscribe in very large measure the aspirations of Tobagonians and therefore we were hoping that a more comprehensive undertaking reflecting the will of the Bills that were sent to the Parliament somewhere in 2016, 2018 under the Orville London administration.
I am happy to hear the AG say that, matters under the Fourth and Fifth Schedules would be reconciled, so I thank him for that.
But I am wondering whether he can give us an undertaking to the extent in terms of what I am about to say: Where any existing national law is in conflict with a Tobago policy, the Tobago law shall take precedence, because there are many things, for example, the present lockdown, where we know from the evidence, and I am going by the science and the evidence that there is very little COVID-19 in Tobago.
And Tobago’s economy is quite diverse and quite miniscule compared to that of Trinidad, and these things can come up again, Madam Chairman.

And to the extent that in terms of the language of what you will call unforeseen issues, it does not appear that Tobago can pursue its own path and its own policy without interference from Trinidad, and this is the real issue.

So that clarification and more specific language, Madam Chairman, needs to deal with the issue of unforeseen circumstances.
UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 47 2021.05.01 I come to the question of the President, and I do not know if others would have raised it, but perhaps if you wish to “tangentialize” this thing, because other persons might have raised it, but I want to look at a different area of it to venture that others would have raised it.
The issue, Madam Chairman, is that, we in Tobago do not in any effective way underline or emphasis effect way can determine the outcome of who becomes President of Trinidad and Tobago.

As a matter of fact, Madam Chairman, the two Tobago seats in the Parliament may not belong to any of, if you wish to say, a ruling party.

The UNC may never have any seats in Tobago again or the PNM, for instance, but they will get together at the Electoral College and it is a numbers game.
The point I am raising, Madam Chairman, is that we will have in effect an illegitimate president to whom to the premier, and I am not bothered whether it is premier or the Chief Secretary, I like the name premier.

But the premier will have to give an account to what we in Tobago deem to be an illegitimate president and therefore a different mechanism must perhaps be considered in terms of the election of a president.
It not to say—I see your body language, Madam Chairman, but the point I am making is that, it is an important issue.

The country is not Trinidad alone and the country is not Trinidad alone to determine where there are certainly very important matters that also concern the aspirations of Tobagonians where we will in fact by virtue of numbers have an illegitimate president.

Mr. de Freitas: Madam Chair— Mr. James: So that— Madam Chairman: Member de Freitas, you have the floor.

Mr. de Freitas: Thank you.


Sorry, Mr. James, to intervene.

I am just really trying to reconcile what you are saying in relation to the President.

You know, I said this yesterday that it is the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago of which Tobago is UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 48 2021.05.01 represented and the idea of how many seats are in that Parliament for Tobago is a completely different discussion.
But the fact still remains that Tobago is represented there and therefore does have a say by way of a vote in relation to the Electoral College and the choosing of a president.

But how do you turn to say that the President of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is illegitimate when Tobago has had a son of the soil in that position already.

Given the fact that you are saying that it is just two votes in an electoral college, you still had a Tobagonian as president.
So it cannot be said that it is illegitimate.

And I will just say, that I will not agree with that because we have Tobagonian representation in the choice, and we have had Tobagonian representation in the position of president.

Mr. James: Right.

The fact that we have—thank you, Mr. de Freitas.

The fact that we have had a Tobagonian as president does not remove the whole question of illegitimacy.
Whether it is a Tobagonian or Trinidadian we—in fact, I may perhaps prefer a Trinidadian as president even if someone is proposed from Tobago.

It does not remove the legitimacy of the question, what is important is the process.

Perhaps if were to say whether the two seats in Tobago—if we are talking about equality of status and that is where my comment— Madam Chairman: Mr. James.

Mr. James.

Mr. James: Yes.

Madam Chairman: If I could just bring you back to what we are here to discuss that would help us.
Because remember we are not here to discuss the legitimacy or the illegitimacy of the President or the mechanism for selecting the President, or electing the President.

So if I could just try to bring you back to what we are here to discuss, I would really appreciate that.

Mr. James: Yes, Madam Chairman.

But the point I want to make, I would not go against your wishes.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 49 2021.05.01 Madam Chairman: We understand your point, Mr. James.

If you move onto another point I would be appreciative of that.

Thank you so much.

Mr. James: I am so guided but I just want to tell you that I made the point in the context of the premier having to report to a president which we have really in effect no effective say, and that is why I figured that it is— Madam Chairman: Yeah.

We understood that point.


Thank you.

Mr. James: Then we come to the question of bilateral composition of the Tobago House of Assembly or unilateral or unicameral, sorry, composition of the Tobago House of Assembly.

I believe that another mechanism or an amendment to the proposed—in the proposed law should in fact promote the ascendancy of a bicameral system if only for the question of checks and balances be available.
So that my preference is for a bicameral system rather than the unicameral system as proposed by the present legislation.

Then I come to the question of the state land issue.

We are concerned, in the groups to which I belong, we are concerned, Madam Chairman, that the State of Trinidad and Tobago can appropriate land in Tobago for a national purpose for which we do not agree.
I do not know whether there is some kind of mechanism to determine the appropriation of state land in Tobago because what it is saying is that, in effect we do not agree with perhaps what, and you said you are the Minister responsible for national planning or all of that, we may not disagree because do we have or will have an equality of say in what becomes national policy to which we may be circumscribed in the first place.

And therefore, you will come to Tobago, say we want this parcel of land.
We are going to say no, and you say well appropriate it in any event.

When on the flip side of the coin we cannot come to Trinidad and say, well we want this for national purpose because Tobago finds that it is very important.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 50 2021.05.01 Madam Chairman: Now remember national means Trinidad and Tobago.

National means and will continue to mean— Mr. James: Yes.

Madam Chairman:—Trinidad and Tobago.


Mr. James: But, Madam Chairman— Madam Chairman: I sure that if there is a national purpose, it will encompass what Trinidad and Tobago needs.

Mr. James: Yes.

But I am suggesting to you, Madam Chairman, the Cabinet perhaps which will not have a member from Tobago—and it is a numbers game as well.

You all can decide that we want this particular thing to happen and it is.

And I am saying there, that does not suggest autonomy.
That suggests an imposition if indeed we find that it does not suit us here in Tobago, and that is a position we need to look at.

We cannot hide it or shut up someone by saying, well it is national.

I am not saying you are shutting me up.

I am saying, we cannot shut up a voice that says, we do not agree that that is national or that it should comprise national.

And because the Cabinet says it is national, then it goes.
And that has to be very unfair and unequal in respect— Madam Chairman: I understand what you are saying.

Mr. James: Right.

Then it comes to the issue of interpretation of the jurisdiction of Trinidad and Tobago.

If I say to you, Madam Chairman— Madam Chairman: Mr. James, as you know— Mr. James: No.

No.

Madam Chairman:—we have traversed— Mr. James: No.

No.

Madam Chairman:—this point on several occasions.

Mr. James: No.

No.

No.

I am not going there.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 51 2021.05.01 Madam Chairman: I do not think, Mr. James, I am not arguing with you.

But I am just saying that we have traversed this point on several occasions.

Mr. James: And promise you, Madam— Madam Chairman: Unless you are coming with a very unique point— Mr. James: And that is where I am going.

Madam Chairman: All right.

Let me hear.

Mr. James: I do promise, Madam Chairman, I am not going there.
Perhaps you pre-empted me, Madam Chairman, with all due respect.

I am saying to you, Madam Chairman, assuming we want in Tobago to set up an oil rig north of Tobago or a gas platform north of Tobago insofar as the external boundaries of Trinidad and Tobago are concerned, will there be an objection?

That is the point.

Madam Chairman: We have traversed this point before.

Is there another point, Mr. James?

Mr. James: Yes, Madam Chairman.

Madam Chairman: Yes.

Thanks a lot.


Mr. James: Well, I am saying, I did not hear.

We will always run the risk of going over particular points because we would not wash the entire proceedings in any given day.

So I was making the point about really in terms of the Tobago government wanting to carry out an activity north of Tobago, what are our constraints.

And I am suggesting to— Madam Chairman: Okay.

Let me just give a general statement on that.


The advice of the constitutional experts which was relied on was that it is not advisable and it is impractical to divide the waters of a unitary state.

The practice in international law does not support this.

Archipelagic states do not divide the waters between their regions or islands.

So waters— Mr. James: Madam Chair, I agree with you.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 52 Madam Chairman: Just a minute, Mr. James.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, do you require— 2021.05.01 Madam Chairman: The waters of Trinidad and Tobago will be dealt with as a whole.

That is generally what we have been saying.

That is what our advice has been— Mr. James: Madam Chairman— Madam Chairman: And that—Mr.

James, I do not want us to—we are not in an argument.
I am just trying assist you with your point, and it is something that we have taken advice on.

We understand the concerns and we will continue to look at it so that we come up with what is the best position for the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: But I understand your point.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, Faris Al-Rawi.

Madam Chairman: Oh, AG, you are here.

So, AG, you can deal with it again as succinctly as possible please.
Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon to you, Mr. James, and thank you so much for your—for sharing your observations and concerns.

Just to put this in a very succinct way, what is at stake if we define the maritime boundaries of Tobago, we are going to lose approximately two-thirds of our exclusive economic rights for fishing which Tobago is interested in, the blue economy and for oil and gas.
That comes from the law which tells us that we are an archipelagic state, it is set out in the Constitution that there is a State of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago and our exclusive economic zone is defined under the Convention on the Law of the Sea.

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, we right now in discussion in protecting our maritime UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 53 2021.05.01 boundary both from a fishing perspective, blue economy and from an oil and gas perspective.

We are before the Law of the Sea Commission right now protecting our boundaries from claims by Barbados, Grenada, Surinam, Guyana—not that we are at war with them or in dispute with them, but they have to define the boundaries.

If you are making the point that Tobago’s boundaries need to be defined.
The expert advice that we have received is that we would lose acreage specifically if I could put it on the record.

What we are going to lose, we are going to lose thousands of square footage of acreage.

We will move from 7,128.8 square kilometres, down to an area of approximately 5,181 if I add Trinidad and Tobago and therefore, we are going to lose a significant acreage.

So the position at present is that we have not decided not to do this, but we cannot do this in the context of what we will lose.
Could I just ask you: Is your submission that we reduce archipelagic status and the total water acreage down by several thousand square kilometres?

Is that what you are an advocate for?

You are on mute.

Mr. James, we see you speaking but no sound, so you are muted.

Mr. James: Yes.

Thank you, Minister AG.

I am not saying, I do not know what the Chair is hearing, but I am not saying that we want to redefine Tobago’s boundaries in relation to Trinidad.
What I am asking and I want to be succinct and clear as you, if the government of Tobago decides to drill and set up an oil rig or a gas platform, how do you—what does the Committee or how does Trinidad feel about that?

That is a different issue as opposed to the boundaries of Tobago or the boundaries of Trinidad.

I agree with you and what your experts have said.

What I am asking is an authority to develop a question.

So that is what I am putting before the Committee.


I do not know if you understand or you would hear me with time, Mr. AG.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 54 2021.05.01 Mr. Al-Rawi: Understood.

I can answer that quickly.

It will be a decision for Trinidad and Tobago.

I will give you an example.


If I take it now to the Loran– Manatee gas field which is in the south of Trinidad where Venezuela and Trinidad have a unitary arrangement, two-thirds Venezuela, one-third Trinidad or 75 per cent 25 per cent depending upon how you look at it.

If we were to take it that way and separate out these positions, then if we apply it the way the question leads itself, then Tobago is alienated from the southern field.
This is a decision, the economic exclusive zone is a decision for Trinidad and Tobago.

What the financial mechanism set out in the Constitution will result in, is that Tobago will always have the light of day on its submissions.

It produces its budget, it says what its claim is, it says if it wants more than the percentage, let us say if it wants to move from 7 per cent to 20 per cent, all of that becomes a public document upon which it has public advocacy.
So it is dangerous for us to say that the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is Trinidad because that keeps coming up.

People assume that Tobago is not part of the State and that is not correct.

Tobago is a part of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

Mr. James: Yes, Mr. AG, and that is because of a historical context, but the specific question remains.

Mr. Al-Rawi: That is because of our Constitution, Sir, not because of our historical context.

Mr. James: Well the Constitution is also history, Mr. AG.
But the point I am making is, it is historical and the point I am making, Mr. AG, is again but I will leave it there, but I am saying to you, if Tobago, the government of Tobago decides to invest in the south of Trinidad in terms of the coordinates between Tobago and Trinidad that may be a problem.

If Tobago decides to invest and develop gas or oil fields north of Tobago, that may also be a problem.

I am merely UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 55 raising those concerns as a citizen, which I have a right to.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Al-Rawi: That is not a problem, Sir.

Just one last point.

Madam Chairman: Go ahead, AG.

2021.05.01 Mr. Al-Rawi: It is actually not a problem.

There is the liberty to do anything.


I cannot see why it is a problem if Tobago decides to make an investment anywhere it still has the latitude to do so, there is no problem.

There is autonomy and then there is the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, so I cannot see how the decision to invest somewhere becomes problem.

It is permitted.

There is a structure by which it can be managed.

How does it reach to be a problem?


Mr. James: Mr. AG, I am suggesting again which you seem—I gather it seems to be dismissive or not taking it into consideration.

Madam Chairman: Mr. James.

Mr. James, I am not going to allow that.

Nobody has been dismissive on this Committee to anybody who has come before the Committee so I am not going to allow that.

And I think the AG has explained the question.


He has given an answer to the question that you have raised and I would like to ask if you have any more issues if you can raise them now please.

Thank you very much, AG.

Mr. James: I am so guided, Madam Chairman, and I am suggesting as I move along there is the issue of the DRC and the SRC, but I want to focus on the SRC.
The SRC, the Salaries Review Commission we do not know for sure as there are many areas within these proposed Bills, there are many areas of uncertainties, and the question of the salaries of the new secretaries and premier, I am—do not know whether the salary of a secretary would be equal to that of a Minister and I have— Madam Chairman: Okay.

That is for the SRC to decide, Mr. James.

It will not be in the legislation.

UNREVISED 56 JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Mr. James: Yes, but what I am saying— 2021.05.01 Madam Chairman: That will be strictly for SRC’s decision.

Mr. James: What I am saying, Madam, why I raise the point again in a historical context—I raise the point in a historical context again, Madam Chairman, that traditionally a Secretary in the Tobago House of Assembly receives lower income and lower perks than that of a Minister.
And if we are talking about the equality of status and the Tobago government, we do not have any real say because for the most part the Salaries Review Commission has not taken into considering certain kinds of issues as they pertain to Tobago and if we are talking equality of statement again, I wish to hazard that it does not appear from the Constitution of the SRC a Secretary is likely to receive the same kinds of remunerations as that of a Minister and— Madam Chairman: I understand what you are saying and, of course, the Tobago island Government will be in a position to make submissions to the SRC in order for them to understand the level of work that they have to do and as a consequence of that form them to examine effectively where to put the salary but it will not be within the Bill before us.
Mr. James: I just wanted us to perhaps look at it— Madam Chairman: To flag that.

All right.

I understand you.

Mr. James: My final issue is the name of the country.

People may laugh at it but I think it is a very important issue if you look at the larger or the largest democracies in the globe, in the world, you do not see one name of a country appearing before the other.

It is a very sacred issue to me and others in the group which I belong to.
I feel it is not set—what I am going to say is not set in stone or welded as a piece of metal however, I am suggesting that the name of the country be looked at again and I propose—it is not my idea, it is my brother’s, one of my brothers, I would UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 57 2021.05.01 not say which—the united islands of the southern Caribbean.
Now you could give it a bull pistol as much as you may want—we may want, but gone should be the notion because it conjures into the mind that there is a superiority of Trinidad over Tobago because the name appears first.

And to give you an example of that, if I google something on Amazon, you tend to find that “the best choices will appear first” So in like manner we need to look at the name change for Tobago and Trinidad, and I do not want to say Tobago and Trinidad nor Trinidad and Tobago.
The constituent names can remain the same however, in reference to the country should be different and not where Trinidad is mentioned before Tobago.

We have Canada as an example, I know you will show me St. Kitts and Nevis but that is not a good example.

I will look at Switzerland, I will look at the United States and so forth where no state is named before the other or no canton or province is named before the other.

We have England or you have the United Kingdom also is a good example.
Thanks for hearing me, Madam Chairman, and members of the Committee.

Have a good day.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. James.

And that is an interesting concept that you have raised there.

And I was going to say St. Kitts and Nevis and Turks and Caicos and Antigua and Barbuda but I am not going to say that.

So— Mr. James: They are not good examples.

Madam Chairman: You are very welcome and thank you very much for you are submission.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are going take a 45-minute adjournment at this time and we will come back to you after 45 minutes.

Thank you very much.

Meeting suspended.

Meeting resumed Madam Chairman: Welcome back to the consultations on the Tobago UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 58 2021.05.01 Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill and the Tobago Island Government Bill.

We look forward to your comments, and we would like to thank those who have already commented.
I understand our next stakeholder is Shirley Cooke.

Ms. Cooke, you have the floor.

All right, we are not hearing Ms. Cooke, but I understand that there is another person who is— Ms. Cooke: I am here.

I was not hearing you.

Madam Chairman: Okay, so Ms. Cooke you have the floor.

Ms. Cooke: All right.

Good evening, Madam Chair, good evening to the members of the Committee, and I am grateful to have this opportunity to address you today.
I am guided by your concern that we do not be repetitious as there were many things that were already said, and I am not going to belabour those points.

But I am going to highlight some of the things that I believe that were not highlighted before and things that I need clarity on or to add to the discussion.

With respect to—again I did not discuss clause, I am discussing the issues on each section.
With respect to the clarification if we have to believe what the Attorney General says in terms of the boundaries, outside of defining, giving Tobago a definition which according to him would allow us to lose marine space, there must be some mechanism even if you may have indicated that, and I want to know if this is what you mean.
There must be a mechanism to give Tobago the authority over the jurisdiction that affords it the ability to determine in Tobago the political, economic, social and cultural developments.

So what I am asking you.

Madam Chair, is by discussing the Planning and Facilitation Act, is it under that body that that you would be able to afford Tobago those parameters?
Madam Chairman: The Planning and Facilitation of Development Act talks specifically about issues surrounding the Town and Country Planning Division, and so it will be those kinds of issues that the Planning and Facilitation of UNREVISED 59 JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Development Act deals with.

2021.05.01 Ms. Cooke: Not necessarily the jurisdiction or parameter areas under which Tobago can exercise jurisdiction with respect to the Fourth and Fifth Schedules.
Madam Chairman: No, no, no, no.

The Fourth and Fifth Schedules are specific to the Constitution Amendment Bill that is being proposed.

Ms. Cooke: Okay.

Madam Chairman: You are welcome.

Ms. Cooke: Secondly, with respect to the—I listened yesterday to Mr. Hochoy Charles’ presentation, and I have been trying the grapple with this situation.
We are discussing two Bills, one to change the Constitution to afford Tobago autonomy, and the second one is to provide the provisions under which Tobago can have that autonomy.

That is my understanding.

I am not an attorney.

It therefore means, what bothers me about that is the fact that once the Act, the provision, to present Tobago's autonomy is going to be enshrined in the Constitution, Tobago therefore would need 50 of the about 72 members in government to change any parts of the Act.

Am I correct?
Am I correct?

Madam Chairman: Yes, if it is to change any part of the Constitution amendment there is the need for a three-fourths majority in the House of Representatives and a two-thirds majority in the Senate.

Ms. Cooke: So, outside of the— Madam Chairman: The objective is to entrench these provisions in the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago.
Ms. Cooke: As much as there are some positives in that, I am probably not liking the fact that all of these matters are enshrined in the Constitution, and therefore puts Tobago at a disadvantage should it decide to change any part of that, even though throughout the morning you keep reminding us that it is one Trinidad and UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 60 2021.05.01 Tobago.
The fact remains that we only would have two representatives out of a body of about 72 persons in the Parliament.

So that part concerns me a little bit, and I would like to see some effort being made to address that, because it may sound good now but I think in the future it would be a challenge for Tobago.

Madam Chairman: I understand your point.

Thank you very much.

Ms. Cooke: Okay.


Madam Chairman: Let me say that previously the Tobago House of Assembly had not been entrenched in Constitution and consequently the request was from the Bill that came to us to be discussed and to be determined by the Joint Select Committee, was that it should be entrenched in the Constitution of Trinidad and Tobago.

But you can go on to your next point.

Thank you very much.

Ms. Cooke: Okay.


But what I am saying, I am of the opinion that the Bill of Rights or items that Tobago should be responsible for under a Bill of Rights arrangement should be entrenched, but all the governance structures that we are discussing does not necessarily need to be entrenched.
In addition to that, the Premier should be able—should we put some of those into an Act of Parliament that we would be able to change we should have something added to that that says that the Act for the Tobago Island Government cannot be changed unless it is directed to do so by the Premier.
So what happen in Tobago with respect the 6:6 tie and that Parliament took it upon itself to change the Act that will no longer occur, but Tobago will have the flexibility to change items in the Act without having to have about 50 of the 72-person Parliament to make that decision.

Okay.

Madam Chairman: We understand what you are saying, and let me say that it is two Bills, one is the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill and the other one is the Tobago Island Government Bill.
So it is two Bills that deal with certain aspects of the proposed internal self-government.

So, one is to be entrenched and the other one is UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 61 2021.05.01 a normal piece of legislation, but we understand what you are saying.

Ms. Cooke: Thank you, Madam Chair.


Okay, another point that I would like to bring up it is with respect to the statement made by Dr. Tsoiafatt-Angus this morning with respect to civil society involvement in the governance of Tobago.
And I just need to add to that that considering the fact that you recommended a unicameral legislature, to me it is even more important, in addition to the fact that the Executive Premier has a lot of appointment powers, that Tobago needs internal oversight, and that body for oversight should come from a civil society arrangement.

Because what I would prefer here in Tobago is a greater participatory type of governance for Tobago rather than what we have seen in the past.
So I just wanted to make that point.

Madam Chairman: Thank you for that point.

Ms. Cooke: Thank you.


With respect to the dissolution of the House, and the fact that it mentioned, which I am happy about, that minority leader will continue for oversight, I would like to add that is that, should the Committee agree with a Tobago House with a civil society participation, and mind you, I would like to have those persons be elected positions, so there is less political interference in the oversight that will be necessary.
With respect to the dissolution of the House, that new body of oversight should continue with a dissolved House so we do not end up in the situation we are in presently with no proper oversight when the Tobago Assembly cannot be properly constituted.

In addition to that, there is no tie- breaking mechanism which, and again that probably can happen in the legislature, the presiding officer may propose but I am saying that I did not see any of that.
I also— Madam Chairman: We did say today that issues like the tie-breaking and so can be dealt with in the Standing Orders.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 62 2021.05.01 Ms. Cooke: Yes, Madam, I agree.

Yes you did.

I want to address also the issue of—national security, yes, is central government’s portfolio, but I am thinking about the internal security for Tobago with respect, you know, to state assets and all of that.
Again, are you saying that that is going to be part of the legislative charge for Tobago, I did not see anything that says that?

Madam Chairman: National security issues are not legislated by—national security remains the purview of the public of Trinidad and Tobago as does foreign affairs.

Ms. Cooke: Yes, Ma’am.

Madam Chairman: Yes.


Ms. Cooke: I agree with that, but what I am saying, outside of that there should be something that affords Tobago some level of internal security to manage some level of that with respect to state buildings, tourism assets and all of that stuff.

I just wanted to make that submission.

With respect to the Public Service Commission, one of the things that plagues us here in Tobago is the shuffling of administrators.
And I know that was mentioned but I just wanted to make the point that it is important not to have a premier so much involved in transferring and moving administrators amongst divisions.

I just wanted to ensure that I make that point.

With respect to the 6.8 allocation.

I noted the Minister of Finance yesterday indicated that the means or the measures by which they decided or they came up with 6.8.
I would have thought, and I hope that it would still be possible that they can engage an economist who can assess what the new—all the new rules, all the new jurisdictions and administrative structures that will cost additional moneys so that the fiscal review commission within short order does not have to go to the Minister of Finance to request additional funds because they now realize that the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 63 2021.05.01 6.8 is not adequate.
So what I am saying is, in addition to land mass and all of that that is he is articulating how they came up with this 6.8, I think it is important to possibly have an economist who can assess, you know, pretty closely how much moneys, additional moneys Tobago would need.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Ms. Cooke: Also with respect to the revenue generation in Tobago, I noted that it said that Tobago would not be allowed to collect vehicular fines, and I do not know if you can explain why that is?
Madam Chairman: Where does it say that?

If you are looking at the Fourth Schedule at Item 19— Ms. Cooke: “Eh mm.” Madam Chairman:—that is not what it says.

What it means is that Tobago cannot make its own laws in relation to vehicular traffic offences, because those kinds of offences would fall under the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago in terms of law making power.

Ms. Cooke: But in terms of collection?

Madam Chairman: Where you are talking about collection.
Ms. Cooke: Okay, there is somewhere in the Bill, I do not have that in front of me, I just have my notes, but I would look at that again and part of my— Madam Chairman: All right, and you can always send us something in writing in relation to that.

Ms. Cooke: Yes, I would definitely do that along with my other submissions.

Madam Chairman: Okay.


Ms. Cooke: Again, I would make it short because several persons want to speak, and in addition to that a lot of these concerns have been highly ventilated, but I want to finally say that Tobago even if there were calls to reject this Bill, I think UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 64 2021.05.01 that we have an obligation to unite and fight for what is right to be put into this Bill, and therefore I cannot subscribe to the fact that we reject this Bill outright.

So with that said, Madam Speaker, I thank you for your time and the opportunity to present today.

Madam Chairman: Ms. Alfred you have the floor.

Ms. Alfred: Thank you, Madam Chair.

My name is Cynthia Alfred, and I shall speak on, well, of course, we are talking about the two Bills.
I want to say— Madam Chairman: Ms. Alfred.

Ms. Alfred, we are hearing you, but if you could position your camera a little differently, maybe a little lower, because we are just seeing the top of your head.

Ms. Alfred: You know how to do that?

Is that better?

Madam Chair, are you hearing me better now?

Madam Chairman: We are hearing you but we are not seeing you as yet.

Ms. Alfred: Oh, are you seeing me now?

Madam Chairman: No, we are not, but we are hearing you so please go ahead.

Ms. Alfred: Okay.
Ms. Alfred: Okay.

In addition, Madam Chair, to the two Bills that are presented to us today, I would like to suggest that there should be a third document.

I did not say a third Bill, but a third document.

And the reasons are this: Tobago is an island, an island, of roughly 60,000 persons.

It took about three years for the then Committee to talk to almost everybody in Tobago.
I am sure that in the two to three years that have been taken by the Joint Select Committee that most of Tobagonians would have forgotten what would have been submitted.

What they said and even what the Bill that was sent by the assembly had to say.

So I am suggesting that in addition to the two Bills that there be by the Committee not a report by an update to the people of Tobago, especially on what this whole thing is about.
Many persons have forgotten, and I think it is in the interest of UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 65 2021.05.01 Tobagonians to be reminded of what this whole process is about.

Because when the meeting started, the consultation started yesterday, Madam Chair, you gave some explanation on what the Bills are about.
But that is what the Bills are about, but in respect of what would have led up to the actual coming into effect of the Bills, that, I think needs to be addressed.

So, that is my first point.

The second point, I noticed that a unicameral status has been advanced.

I do not know if I would have missed perhaps where you would have given an explanation on why, but it does say in the Bills that it is to recognize the equality of status between the island of Tobago and the island of Trinidad.
Of course within the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago.

So, that having been said, Trinidad does not have a unicameral system and therefore my question is, why does Tobago have to have one?

I am sure that there has to be an explanation.

That is number two.

The third point, these Bills are not ordinary Bills.

These Bills talk about the future of this island called Tobago.

So we cannot deal, or we should not deal with these Bills as if they were ordinary Bills.
I know sometimes in the Parliament in the House of Representatives and sometimes even in the Senate, one the House of Representatives or the Senate might go right through the night to accomplish what they would have considered the importance of a particular Bill.

In this particular case we had two days, yesterday and today.

I understand that Monday most likely will not be in Tobago, it would be in Trinidad.
But I am saying, after three, roughly three years of this Committee, and I remember that the Committee changed at one time, if I am not mistaken, after three, approximately three years for us to be given two days, to me that is not enough.

Because the persons who are going to talk now, and who spoke yesterday, I am sure there are persons, additional persons who would have wanted to express themselves, but because of two days perhaps they will say perhaps another time.
UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 66 2021.05.01 But we have to bear in mind that 60-or-so-thousand persons that represent Tobago, Tobago is an island.

Trinidad is an island.

And if Tobago is an island, we can cannot take two days, at least in my estimation, we should not take just two days to go through the Bills as they are without perhaps one recognizing the need for the rest of Tobago to be more involved.
Because the persons who are make the presentations will have— Madam Chairman: Ms. Alfred, let me just say that we will also be receiving written submissions, so it is not that it is just two days.

We put out these Bills for comment over a week ago, I think it was two weeks they have been out, about two weeks now and we have asked for written submissions.

What we are doing today and we did yesterday was ask for people to come in to us, in the virtual space, and tell us their submissions.
And again, we indicated that if you had written submissions in addition, you could feel free to do that.

So it is not that we are just giving two days for people to make submissions.

And you will recall that these Bills are all over Tobago, and everyone is given the opportunity to make submissions, so it is not just two days.

Ms. Alfred: All right, I take your point, Madam Chair.
Right, the other points I would like the make, Mr. Hochoy Charles, I am not going to go over what he said, but he did make a point that the Bill he was talking about was sent to—well, the document he spoke about was sent to Trinidad.

Madam Chair, if I am remember correctly, you said you did not, when I say you, the Committee, did not receive that Bill, so it begs the question.

Madam Chairman: No, no, no.


What I said is, when the forum completed the Bill that they thought was what reflected the will of the people of Tobago, a Bill was sent to the Cabinet in 2016, and that Bill was sent by the Cabinet to the Parliament untouched, and the Parliament established a Joint Select Committee to deal with UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 67 2021.05.01 what was requested.
After that Committee had done its work, and there was a new Parliament, a new Joint Select Committee was established, and using some of the inputs from the previous Committee we are now before you with two Bills; the Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill and the Tobago Island Government Bill.

Ms. Alfred: I understand that.


I hear you, but I made the point—I make the point, because the Bill what was sent by the Tobago House of Assembly, I presume that that is the—it is out of that Bill that these two Bills have come forth.

Yes?

Right.

So, I again ask the question, but you gave an explanation on what Mr. Charles would have said.

Right.

The other point I would like to make—right, yes.


The Attorney General made a point, somebody made a point about Tobago cannot make a Bill that would supersede the Bill, the national Bill or a Bill of Parliament.

Right.

But I am asking a question, the Attorney General made a point and the example he gave to me it was very, very interesting.

He said suppose the national Bill says, no death penalty in Trinidad and Tobago, and Tobago says, we would like to say something about that.
Now not necessarily to supersede the Bill, but perhaps to give an opinion on what they think about a particular Bill.

How would you address a particular case like that?

In other words, I got the impression that the Tobago Bill cannot supersede the national Bill.

Okay, we say, all right.

But suppose Tobago does have a problem, or a situation where Tobago feels that it has to make some sort of intervention with respect to the Bill.

What happens in a case like that?


Madam Chairman: Then the intervention can be made.

Ms. Alfred: The intervention can be made.

Right.

And I come, Madam Chairman, almost to the end of my submissions, and without repeating anything that has been said, I would like to thank you the Committee for the question of Town and Country Planning because you mentioned it a little while ago.

Town and Country UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 68 2021.05.01 Planning coming under, that is where Tobago is concerned, coming under the jurisdiction of Tobago.

Town and Country Planning, because I want to add one more thing, Madam Chairman.
There is this question, sometimes it takes 10, 15 years to solve problems with respect to Town and Country Planning in Tobago, and I would like to see that Tobago handles that portfolio where we do not have to wait 10 or 15 years, and not only the Town and Country Planning Bill, but other things that go with it.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms. Alfred.

Your submissions have been noted and we appreciate it.

Ms. Alfred: Thank you very much.


Madam Chairman: Thank you very much Ms. Alfred: You are welcome.

Madam Chairman: I will now give the floor to Kevern Phillips.

Mr. Phillips: Pleasant good afternoon to the esteemed panel and to the distinguished Chairman.

Well, first and foremost I would like to express thanks for the opportunity to more or less comment.
I would try my best not to be repetitive in nature due to the deliberations that would have taken place prior to me coming on, they would have more or less expressed the sentiments that I would have wanted to bring across.
However, Ms. Alfred would have indicated something, making reference to a third document, but not necessarily—I do not necessarily think that there is a requirement for a third document, but there needs to be a pathway or an avenue to further sensitize persons with regard to what it is that is being brought before the people of Tobago to make a decision upon.
Because, based upon the different contributions that would have been made earlier today, and even yesterday, it is in my opinion that there seems to be manifestations of some level of confusion or UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 69 2021.05.01 understanding of what it is the two Bills have been more or less designed to do.

As in the sense that from these manifestations, from these positions, one must ask what it is that we really want.
What are the expectations as in the sense we are hearing three different narratives coming from contributors that more or less ventilate autonomy, that ventilate secession, and also ventilate federalism.

And it begs one to wonder, are we facing somewhat of a Brexit type of situation where persons are advocating for something that we do not fully understand.
Is it that we no longer want to be part of a unitary state where there are questions of whether or not the significance of a title being bestowed as Premier or Chief Secretary, where in truth and in fact the rationale behind Premier I am just simply saying could have been the fact that we want to clearly establish that this portfolio heads the government of an island, and you need to clearly distinguish between the person that heads the island’s government from the Prime Minister which heads the national or unitary state government as per se.
So there is significance but the reason where you would have questions regarding the devolution of responsibilities and all of that, is do we understand that we are not seeking secession but we are seeking self-determination.
And is it now a requirement for the Committee and those responsible for the proper dissemination of these information to once again go through that process of ensuring that the body politic and the masses within the 116 square-mile space, by extension, the 1,981 square-mile space to have a full understanding of what it is we are trying to establish.

Madam Chairman: I understand what you are saying Mr. Phillips, and in terms of communication you may be quite accurate, that a little more needs to be said.
We understand that, because there does seem to be that confusion.

Thank you.

Go ahead, please.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 70 2021.05.01 Mr. Phillips: Okay, Chair, because in order for all stakeholders to have a full appreciation and understanding of the very intricate but important process, one must understand first and foremost what it is we are trying to achieve, what is we are aspiring to.
And I am quite sure that in the good sense and good nature of things, even before this particular Bill, Act 37 of 1980, Act 40 of 1996, that it is in my view that it was never the intent for us to separate ourselves totally from the unitary State that we can all benefit from.
And it speaks as well to what the Attorney General would have said that if it is that that pathway is one that one wishes to embark upon, the exclusive economic zone and all of that comes into question, the maritime boundaries and all the demarcation points.

The Bill speaks to the fact that we are currently in a transitory, or what we wish to achieve is a transitory pathway from just simply being able make by make by-laws, to actually making laws which is a significant step.
Even when we had sought independence prior to 1962, the current constitutional framework that governs the nation was not what exists today.

It is ergonomic in nature, so a lot of the questions that we tend to have as to why this is not mentioned, what about the infrastructural capacity in the House to have 15 additional members?
All of that, that is a work in process and as human beings, while we make laws, laws are made to be modified and altered as time goes by, and as the need analysis is done to further enhance how these laws could be suitably assigned to meet the needs of persons.

Laws are ergonomic in nature, they are very organic.

The most important thing is making the stride in a progressive nature to have these laws enacted for the betterment of our society.

Madam Chairman: That is well said, yes.


Mr. Phillips: So, I do not want to harp too much and take up too much time, distinguished Chairman, and the panel, but I believe that there is a responsibility to UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 71 2021.05.01 further sensitize people on the rudimentary level of what it is we are trying to aspire to establish that it is not secession.
It is not that we are now going into a geographic silo and still more or less seek this requirement according to the Dispute Resolution Commission for the larger part of our twin island Republic to fund us, because you are now—there is conflict more or less between is it that we have federalism, secession, autonomy?

Is it an autonomous agreement?


So, I am hoping that more clarity would come where there are pathways of further enlightening and awareness of what it is we want to achieve, that we first must establish what we really want and not have a Brexit-like situation, that after we make a particular demand, we now ask ourselves what we have done.

Thank you very much.

Madam Chairman: Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Phillips, appreciated.
And someone just told me that today is your birthday, so on behalf of the Committee we want to wish you a very happy birthday and many more happy returns.

Mr. Phillips: Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

We now ask Jerron Smith to take the floor.

Jerron Smith, the floor is yours.

Is Anthony Hector there?

If Mr. Hector is there you can take the floor.

We are not hearing Mr. Smith.

Mr. Hector: Good afternoon.

Good afternoon.


Madam Chairman: Good afternoon, Mr. Hector.

Mr. Hector: Thank you very much, Madam Chair, you and your Committee members both in Trinidad and Tobago, and all other participants who took the time to participate in this very important exercise.

Can I preface my comments, which will be brief, because I realize in the interest of time we have to be reasonable.
Can I preface my comments by saying that this is my third reincarnation of this exercise, so that I can describe myself as a student of this important exercise.

So UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 72 2021.05.01 firstly I want to reemphasize a point I made previously, which was that the term that should be used for both male and female gender, and then I have updated it since then to mean assembly representative, and I was— Madam Chairman: Mr. Hector, we did get that request and we will— Mr. Hector: You got that from me?

You got that from me?


Madam Chairman: No, this is the first time we are hearing from you— Mr. Hector: Oh, really.

Okay.

Madam Chairman:—but we did get that request previously, so yes we did.

Mr. Hector: Oh, well, yeah, but I said that before, but I want to add to that, that I would like to include the possibility of transgender being included in the conversation as we go forward in that particular category of individuals participating in the exercise of governance going forward.
Well, I will speak to this in my own time in my own space.

Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Okay, thank you.

Mr. Hector: Now, the question of Independence, well, you may or may not have been aware.

I also raised that as the first in this conversation before.

I am seeing it appearing and I am suggesting that we do not use an even number in going forward with this exercise.
I am seeing two, and I am suggesting three, just in the event that an important discussion takes place amongst them so that they can better see the circumstances unevenly, rather than evenly.

And as I make that point, Madam Chair, as I examine the documents before us, I want to say that it appears as though we are producing out of Tobago public servants corresponding or working in a system that will not be productive for the benefit of the residents, or the benefit of the nation that should be Tobago.
And I am happy that the Attorney General is somewhere hearing, or somewhere paying attention to this particular matter.

Madam Chairman: Mr. Hector.

UNREVISED 73 JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Mr. Hector: Yes.

2021.05.01 Madam Chairman: In relation to the two Bills that are before us, can you tell me where in the Bills you have come to that conclusion— Mr. Hector: Independence?

Madam Chairman: No, the conclusion about productivity?
Mr. Hector: No, no, no, I am giving my submission, you know, Madam Chairman: Sorry?

Mr. Hector: I am free to give my submission.

Madam Chairman: No, I have not said no, I am just asking in relation to the issue of productivity would you be able to say— Mr. Hector: Yeah, yeah, I am saying of what I have seen of the Bills.

If you have not seen it, I can submit it to you.

Madam Chairman: Yeah, so could you tell me where?

Yes, I would appreciate it.


Mr. Hector: What I have seen of the Bills is that we have produced documents to make us public servants out of Tobago, instead of being productive individuals that can contribute to the development of a country that can be made up of two islands.

I am saying so far I have not seen it.

Madam Chairman: Okay, I now understand.

All right.

Sorry, I am now understanding what you are saying.

Mr. Hector: Okay.
Mr. Hector: Okay.

Madam Chairman: Because I heard you mention productivity, so I thought it was something that— Mr. Hector: Yes, yes, I am very concerned about productivity.

Madam Chairman: All right.

Thanks very much.

Mr. Hector: I am seeing a picture developing.

I am seeing a trend developing where we in Tobago must become responsible, if we are not already responsible, UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 74 2021.05.01 more responsible; we must become productive, if we are not productive, to become more productive, and as I have said to you before, that we are entitled to having a mind of our own.

You all do not like the words that I used the last time so I will leave it there.

Now, another quick point, so I will try to make it fast in the interest of the rest of participants.
I would like to have suggested as part of the exercise, or having scanned the document quickly, that the Tobago House of Assembly as a body should debate these documents before us, and pass it also, just as Parliament will pass it, so that we will see transparency and we will see accountability coming from both sides.

Too often we have seen a lopsided arrangement where everything must be said or done out of Trinidad.
I am suggesting in this particular case, the Tobago House of Assembly as a body must debate and discuss and agree, and if possible pass these matters that are being discussed that would only go to Parliament which obtained in the past.

I am saying let us go forward looking better and more mature than we have done in the past.

I am moving quickly forward.

The question of equality of status.

I would like to suggest that we outline what each country or island is bringing to the table.
As I scan the document, all I saw was some sections talking about Little Tobago and things like that.

I would like to see all the resources of both islands come to the table and let us for sure know who has what.

Because I have heard the AG say that we cannot disaggregate what we will bring to the table in Tobago because of the fact that it is one country that comprises of all.

We are mature enough, we must advance.


If we move from infancy to youth to adult to old age, there must be a process taking us through life.

And I am asking, please, and I am begging that all the resources be placed on the table, even if you do not want to bring all together as one, I am requesting kindly that we have all resources of both islands and both nations placed on the table.

I would try to wrap UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 75 2021.05.01 up in the interest of time because I could get my own space.

Now, subsection (6)(c).

Now, we have had experiences in the past, I do not know if the AG did the research, where in 1990—and we had another instance of a court matter in the Caribbean where Tobago’s waters were determined and as a result we won the flying fish case.

I do not know if you—you “doh” remember that particular case there, Madam Chair.
So I want to put the two of them as examples on the table.

We have had that particular case where Tobago was afforded the right to the flying fish in our waters which has been demarcated and can be demarcated.
I would like to add to that, when we look back at history—and I have been a good student of history—in 1990, the then Chief Secretary of the Tobago House of Assembly and the then Prime Minister agreed that Tobago could control whatever is happening in its own space under the circumstances in a state of emergency.
And I am suggesting that we consider in a future circumstance that if, God forbid, that any kind of circumstance faces us, manmade or through natural disasters, Tobago be afforded the opportunity to make decisions that are relevant to its own circumstances on behalf of its own people.

I would leave it there because I do not want to be unreasonable, but I still had 61(1)(a) and (b), and 75(1)(a) and (b), and 14 (a)/(b).

But I want to be reasonable— Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.
Mr. Hector: And I would leave it there for now— Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Hector.

Mr. Hector: Thank you very much for your time.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Hector: Have a great evening.

UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 76 2021.05.01 Madam Chairman: Same to you.

Thank you for participating.

I will now call Jerron Smith.

Can I ask Nickocy Phillips to take the floor, please?

Ms. Phillips: Hi, good afternoon.


A pleasant good afternoon to the Chair and the other members of the JSC both Trinidad and Tobago.

I would not be too long because what happen I would have seen some of the issues being touched on the self-government Bill.

But if I raise some of the topics and it has already been touched on, you could tell me so I can pass them on, please.

First of all let me just say, the (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020.

Since we are in 2021, should it be 2021 self-government Bill?
Hello.

Madam Chairman: We will deal with that.

Ms. Phillips: Okay.

Thank you.

In the Fifth Schedule, I did not see you had anything for transportation under the Schedule.

So this Bill begs the question, who is responsible for Tobago’s transportation as it relates to the— Madam Chairman: We will deal with that.

We will deal with that.

Ms. Phillips: That gone already.

Okay.

Madam Chairman: Yes.

Ms. Phillips: Well, okay.

I will pass that on.


The Tobago legislative clause 18— [Cell phone rings] Hello?

Mr. Smith: Yes, yes, good afternoon.

Madam Chairman: We are dealing with Nickocy Phillips.

Go ahead, please.

Ms. Phillips: Yes.

The Tobago legislative in clause 18, the Committee proposes a unicameral Tobago legislative with 26 members empowering to make laws referred to a Tobago Act for peace, order and good governance of Tobago.
I just want you all to—if you all could add here—because although we would have discussed it on a previous discussion, 15 members elected as the Assemblymen; 10 Councillors which is appointed, five is appointed by the advice of the Premier, UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 77 2021.05.01 three by the advice of the Minority Leader and two by the President, some people still question that that is 25 members.
But they wanted to know if you could make it clear that the 26th member being the Presiding Officer?

Madam Chairman: Yes, we will.

Ms. Phillips: The Tobago Island Government Bill.

With this Bill being passed, questions were: Will there be a rebuilding or relocation of the Assembly now having more seats and members to the legislative arm of the THA once the Bill is proclaimed?

And we are also looking at: Since there is a Tobago Island Government Bill, would there be one in Trinidad as well?
The Financial Provisions, Part IV, clause 22 to 30, paragraph 1: “An annual minimum budgetary allocation of 6.8…of the total budget expenditure is being proposed”—in—“(Clause 22).” Questions: Commission was invoked in court—well, we know there was a court case in regards to the 6.8 per cent, but no government has gone above 4.3 per cent.
Who is to say that with this Bill going forward we are going to receive that allocation of the 6.8 per cent and should there not be a better formula inserted into and discussed for financial autonomy?

What I believe we have now is a ratio.

So I think going forward, if we can have a proper proposed ratio of how and how we can get that 6.8 per cent, I think that should be inserted as well.

Because I think as it stands now, all we have is a ratio.
Paragraph 4, why do we need the Minister of Finance approval to borrow?

Why not deal directly with the central government and would we still have to wait on Trinidad’s—we would still have to wait on Trinidad on approval to get to borrow as well.

I think I have this—Tobago’s allocation from the Government, sorry.

So these are some of the notes and questions on our list put forward.

I want UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 78 2021.05.01 us to take note that many contentious clauses are not in the survey created by your Parliament.

So some of the clauses that we find in the discussion, they are not on your Parliament website.

No federal arrangements.

I think I heard you all talk about federal arrangements already, so I will pass that off.

Concerns again—right.


I am of the view that once the Teaching Service Commission has the right implementation and it is in the right framework, it will be a plus for the Teaching Service Commission in Tobago and applaud that being a part of the Bill.

And I think that we should also have autonomy over the control of the Teaching Service Commission, the Public Service Commission and the Police Service Commission.
Definitions of Tobago needs to be rectified, in regard to the mileage of Tobago needs to be addressed.

Why the nautical miles were removed?

I think I heard some sort of discussion with that yesterday but I think if they need a more transparent discussion so we could take two persons on the street, the average persons.

Is there any economic zone on the seas of Tobago?

Concern number 4: We have control over public utilities but I think they excepted—they took out the Met office.
Why does the Premier have power to have a larger Executive than the Assembly?

There is not enough non-executive members to overthrow the Executive Council’s oversight over the Executive or the House.

Another concern is in the early part of the Bill it speaks about recognizing the right of the people of Tobago to determine in Tobago their political status to freely pursue their cultural and economic development.
But how do you pursue your economic development in Tobago and all the resources are not available to Tobagonians as yet?

How do you also pursue your political development if what you do have to subject to a national Parliament that is not a part of our federal UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 79 2021.05.01 arrangements?
Not putting in the boundaries, you are denying Tobagonian— Madam Chairman: Let me—could I just say that we have had no instructions to determine a federal arrangement.

Ms. Phillips: Nice.

Madam Chairman: The instructions are that there is a Parliament for the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, and what we are doing is determining internal self-government for Tobago.

We have no instructions to determine a federal system or cessation or independent.
What the instructions were that we got from Tobago was that Tobago wanted autonomy and within the unitary State of Trinidad and Tobago.

So it is not a federal system we are determining.

Ms. Phillips: Nice.

Thank you.

Well, I would not stay long because, as I said, most of the subjects and areas were touched before.

My executive will be forwarding something towards the JSC and I hope some of the initiatives there will be added and discuss into the Bill.
In closing, I would like to say it is very easy, however, to take liberty for granted.

And to misconstrued just how difficult it was and would be for us Tobagonians to gain our own freedom or autonomy status with the lack of equitable share in these two pieces of Bill drafted and handed to us like a thief in the night.

Now, Tobago is an autonomy, our freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
It is fighting here today and in the future to pass to our children in the bloodstreams, it must be fought, protected and handed on for them to do same.

If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may lead, like sheep to the slaughter.

Liberty has not and will never come from the Government.

Liberty has always come from the subject of it.

The history of liberty is a history of resistance.

And I do not believe that we, the Tobagonians, want to UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 80 2021.05.01 resist the Bill.

And I am hoping that—in my view, I do feel that the Bill is a little rushed.

I think there are still parts in the Bill that needs to be addressed and I think that not just sitting here before the Joint Select Committee and giving the views that, you know, it will just pass on like that.
I hope that whatever is being put forward, that the Committee will really look into some of the inserts that were put forward and will come back to us before it is passed in the Parliament or to debate in the Parliament.

And I believe Mr. Hector would have spoken about debating it in the Assembly.

We do not have a constituted Assembly at this point in time, so I think, you know, before things are rushed, we do not want to have a full resistance of resisting the Bill.
Because if we resist the Bill, what is there in place to put there?

So I think that all of us should work together still and continue to put inserts to make sure that this Bill actually is proclaimed in the right framework for the people of Tobago.

And I thank the JSC for doing a very excellent work.

Thank you so much.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much and please be reminded that if you have any more points or if you want reiterate your points, you can send them to us in writing.
Thank you very much for your participation.

Ms. Phillips: Will do.

Thank you very much.

Madam Chairman: We have been trying to get Jerron Smith if—[Interruption] that was—Mr.

Smith?

Mr. Smith: Yes, good afternoon, Miss, the hon.

Minister—I believe it is Minister of Planning and Development.

Yes, I was basically reading through the document that was sent.

I got it like yesterday.


However, there was one point I was going to raise which was actually dealing with the borders but—yes, is this good enough, Miss?

Hello?

UNREVISED 81 JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Madam Chairman: I am hearing you.

2021.05.01 Mr. Smith: Right—was with the whole discussion with the nautical miles and stuff like that, that I know was in several reincarnations of a draft that was sent.
But I realized that was dealt with and that has been exhausted, so I shall not try to elucidate on that any more.

However, I was reading through it again and I saw that there was—there is one here with regard to like, in the old Bill, there was usually a limit for the number of Secretaries that can be had.

But I am seeing that in this new document that is not the case.

Is it that that will only fall under the jurisdiction of the premier or is it that that will be added in after?

Right?
Right?

That is my first one.

Again, my other point was the whole tie-breaking mechanism.

I did not see anything in the Bill to deal with the tie-breaking mechanism, but I guess that that was dealt with already.

My other point is with regard to this mediation committee that I am seeing here.
I would like to ask, does this replace the Dispute Resolution Commission and is it that—I am seeing that it is largely somewhat partisan, in that it would comprise mainly of persons that will have some political affiliation.

Is it that this will also be reviewed in the future?

The other point that I am— Madam Chairman: It will.

Yes, it will.
Yes, it will.

Mr. Smith: I am seeing hear also within your Schedules, I think it is either the Fourth or the Fifth Schedule where I am seeing that the island government has the provision to borrow in the Act but under the Schedule, we do not have authority to borrow from external sources.

But in the Bill itself, it is saying that we can borrow from any source that we choose.

Is that an inconsistency or is it that I am missing something here with regard to the document?
Madam Chairman: The borrowings will be both internal and external.

So where UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 82 2021.05.01 you see except under the Fifth Schedule, external, that will be taken out.

Mr. Smith: Okay, thank you very— Madam Chairman: Okay.

You are welcome.

Mr. Smith: And the 6.8 per cent that I am seeing here—I know that this was also dealt with.

But is it that we have not asked for 8 per cent in previous incarnations?
Even the Bill, I think, that was sent down in 2018 has 8 per cent.

I know that the one that was presented in the House had 8 per cent.

I know that there was one with the John Prince, I think, went up as high as 10 per cent.

So I do not know if this is something that is definitive in terms of the financial appropriation for Tobago.
The one thing that I do like is that—that I was hearing during the break—is that the financial appropriation that Tobago does, no longer has to be sent to Trinidad for approval.

And I think that is a step in the right direction.

However, I do have some serious—well, some concerns, some that are largely, some that are— I believe that it has been rushed and I think that more time should be really given to Tobagonians to really peruse this document before it actually goes to the House.
Is it that there will be a wider consultation before it is presented to the House?

Is it that— Madam Chairman: Mr. Smith, what will happen after this series of consultations, we will take on board what has been said.

We also anticipating that there will be written submissions.

We will take all these into consideration and we will see how we move forward in this regard.
We do have a date of May 31st to return to the House with the report of the Joint Select Committee, but as I said, we will take all of these issues under consideration.

Mr. Smith: Okay.

Thanks very much, Madam Minister.

I take it that this—this that is before us is not really—it is not finite on it, it is not final.

Madam Chairman: It is a draft.

It is two draft Bills that we have brought to the UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 83 2021.05.01 public for your examination and further consultations.

So all stakeholders can make their presentations either before us in this virtual forum or they can write their comments or they can do both.

So you can submit written comments to us in addition to what you are saying today and anybody else can submit written comments to us.

Mr. Smith: Yes, Madam Minister and also—yes, Madam Minister, another thing.

Is there any provision for a holdover?


Madam Chairman: Sorry.

I am not understanding you.

Mr. Smith: Now, in this current incarnation because of the 6:6 tie, I believe that the Executive stands to remain.

Is it until such time this can be resolved, right?

Madam Chairman: That is not before us.

That is not before this Committee.

That is not within our remit.

Mr. Smith: “Ohh”, I thought it was.

So that is my contribution.

Thank you very much for your time.


Madam Chairman: Thank you very much for participating.

We appreciate your comments.

I will now move Mr. Reginald Vidale who is our last stakeholder that is before us today.

Mr. Vidale?

Ladies and gentlemen, it would appear as though we have completed our consultation for today.

And as I close, on behalf of the Committee, I wish to thank all those who participated with us today.

And again, I want to thank those who participated yesterday.
Clearly, this has been a very interesting and worthwhile discussion.

To all who joined us and made comments, we are indeed grateful.

I say thank you again on behalf of the members of the Joint Select Committee.

We believe that this is the best methodology of law making.

What we are doing here happens all over the world.

Lawmakers, with the aid of draftsmen and constitutional experts and other legal experts and other experts, propose legislative UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 84 2021.05.01 drafts and then hear from the people, especially for complex constitutional matters.

With law making, no side, no group can get all that it seeks and that is normal.

It does not mean that no progress is made.


It is though unfortunate that so many of our brothers and sisters in Tobago who have spoken seem to hold the view that there is an unwillingness by this Committee to give Tobago the autonomy it deserves within the framework of the unitary sovereign state of Trinidad and Tobago.

Nothing could be further from the truth.


As a Committee and as the team that brought this legislation before the Parliament, through the Cabinet, we are committed to creating a mechanism for the running of the affairs of Tobago by Tobagonians for the autonomy that they have so long requested, and that has taken some time over the years to get us to this point because there is quite a high level of autonomy as it is now in Tobago.
Such a mechanism will be part of the overall Government of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

Like many of you who spoke to us, both yesterday and today, we continue to seek, to form a central government in Tobago, not totally mirroring what exists at the level of the national government, but with all the elements and that is to say, a legislature and executive all made up of Tobagonians making decisions for Tobago as well as arrangements for oversight as determined by Tobago.
All will run and be operated by Tobagonians for Tobago.

But remember that this entire Tobago governance structure, although autonomous in nature, comes under the wider umbrella of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

Having heard from the stakeholders today, we of this Committee feel confident that we can iron out all the concerns expressed, even if not to the full extent desired.

Given that we are limited by the framework of our Constitution— UNREVISED JSC The Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 85 2021.05.01 and when I say our Constitution, I mean the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, the Constitution that belongs to all of us and we cannot expand our remit.

We look forward to our continued discussions and remain committed to this process.

Thank you again to those who joined us today and very stridently and passionately shared their views.
Today we heard from James Armstrong, Dr. Denise Tsoiafatt-Angus, Janae Campbell, Margaret Parks, Ishla Bedlow, Max James, James Trim, Shirley Cooke, Anthony Hector, Kevern Phillips, Jerron Smith, and yes, we heard from Ishla Bedlow and we thank you all for participating —and we also heard from Nickocy Phillips—yes, Nickocy Phillips.

Thank you all for participating and these discussions will continue.
We also remind you that we anticipate that those of you who did not participate virtually will send your comments in writing and even those of you who did participate virtually that you will send any further comments that you have in writing.

Thank you and, as I said, the discussions will continue and we look forward to meeting with you again.

Thank you and thank you to the Joint Select Committee team, the team from the Parliament and the team from the Chief Parliamentary Council.
Thank you and may God continue bless us all.

Meeting adjourned.

UNREVISED 1 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 VERBATIM NOTES OF THE VIRTUAL TWENTY-SECOND MEETING OF THE JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION (AMDT.)
(TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020, HELD (IN CAMERA), ON FRIDAY, JUNE 04, 2021 AT 3.15 P.M. Mrs. Camille Robinson-Regis Chairman PRESENT Mr. Clarence Rambharat Mr. Faris Al-Rawi Dr. Maria Dillon-Remy Ms. Shamfa Cudjoe Ms. Jearlean John Mr. Foster Cummings Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh Member Member Member Member Member Member Member Mrs. Renuka Sagramsingh-Sooklal Member Mr. Varma Deyalsingh Mr. Nigel de Freitas Mr. Dinesh Rambally Member Member Member Mrs. Jacqui Sampson-Meiguel Secretary Ms. Keiba Jacob Assistant Secretary OFFICIALS FROM TOBAGO Mr. Farley Augustine Dr.
Faith B. Yisrael Mrs. Tracy Davidson-Celestine Mr. Ancil Dennis Member Member Member Member UNREVISED 2 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Mr. Joel Jack Mr. Kwesi Des Vignes Ms. Marslyn Melville-Jack Ms. Zorisha Hackett Mr. Hochoy Charles Ms. Nickocy Phillips Member Member Member Member One Tobago Voice Unity of the People CHIEF PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL Mrs. Jonetta Jeet Ramsahai Assistant Chief Parliamentary Counsel Ms. Yolande Wilkinson Parliamentary Counsel II (Ag.)
Mr. Samraj Harripaul, SC Law Reform Officer Madam Chairman: First of all, let me welcome members; I am seeing some members there.

Okay.

Let me take the opportunity to welcome members to this Joint Select Committee meeting.

We are on the cusp of delivering our report to the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago, but we felt that as we started with the forum and the political parties that we would end in the same way by going back to the political parties and the representatives of the people of Tobago.
So, thank you very much for accepting our invitation; thank you very much for being here and we will start by asking you to introduce yourselves please, thank you.

Did everyone hear me?

I am asking for— Member: Yes, Madam Chair, we heard you.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

So I am asking for our guests to introduce themselves.

But what I will do, just to make you a little more comfortable, I will ask the members of the Committee to introduce themselves.
Let me indicate that as we did on the last occasion, we do have members of the CPC here with us and members of the UNREVISED 3 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Parliament Secretariat who are assisting the Committee.

And so I will ask the members of the Committee and the members of the Secretariat and the CPC to introduce themselves to our guests, please, thank you very much.
[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: We have any other member who would wish to introduce themselves?

Okay, and as some of you may know I am Camille Robinson-Regis— [Technical difficulties] [Introductions made] Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Welcome.

I cannot tell if we have any other persons here, but if—just the members of the CPC if they could introduce themselves.

Mrs. Jeet-Ramsahai, please.

[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: Thank you.

I am hoping that we have covered everyone now.


And so—[Interruption] Oh sorry, go ahead.

Mr. Des Vignes: Hi, good afternoon, Madam Chair, thank you.

[Introductions made] Madam Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Hackett.

Ms. Hackett: You are welcome.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Okay, I am hoping that we have covered everyone now.

As I said we are really trying to share with you for discussion purposes or just for you to see what we have done with the two Bills.

That is to say, the Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2021 and the Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021, and so that you can have a sense of what has been done following our receipt of stakeholder comments and the discussions that we had during the time of public interaction from you and from other persons who gave comments on the Bills UNREVISED 4 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 that we had prepared.
2021/06/04 So, I am asking the Attorney General to present the Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2021, and thereafter member de Freitas would present the Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021.

So Attorney General, please or member Faris Al-Rawi, please.

Thank you.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon to everyone and thank you so much for attending this afternoon and for being a very diligent part and parcel of this most important event.
Discussing the Tobago autonomy and issues that have been standing in our matrix, is a critical and important factor for all of us.

Permit me to thank you also for your contribution and your learned submission which the Committee has received and has spent a lot of time discussing in conjunction with all of the other submissions that we received from other stakeholders.
Just to inform the obvious that it is often a difficult task to marry on submissions, particularly when they are very broad-based, but certainly the group attending before us provided very pointed and very poignant submission material which was extremely useful to the Committee.

Members of the Committee have produced for us and up on screen you would see the first Bill that we are about to embark upon.

And that—Madam Chair, would you excuse me for one moment please.
I have an urgent call that I must take, forgive me for exactly one moment.

Dr. Dillon-Remy: Chair, I am just asking Justin again whether he can enlarge the item on the screen, thanks.

Madam Chairman: I do not know if I am alone, but is it that this needs centering?

Member: No, it is fine, it is fine.

Madam Chairman: “Oh”, okay.

Yes, somebody was asking a question?

UNREVISED 5 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Yes, a point of clarification.

At what point are we allowed to ask questions.

Is it after the presentation or during the presentation?

Madam Chairman: I could really prefer if we ask questions after, after the presentation, please.

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Noted.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Mrs. Sampson-Miguel: Is a Clarence Jacob expected?

I am seeing somebody in the room.

Member: Yes, yes.
Member: Yes, yes.

Mrs. Sampson-Miguel: Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Yes, you can let him in.

Mrs. Sampson-Miguel: Thank you very much.

Madam Chairman: I am sure the AG would be back with us shortly.

I am just making small talk.

The AG is back with us?

Mr. Charles: Good afternoon.

Madam Chairman: Mr. Hochoy Charles, how are you?

Mr. Charles: I am excellent and peaceful as usual.

I have been here but we were having some difficulty hearing you and getting on board.

But we are now in.
But we are now in.

Madam Chairman: So you are hearing me clearly?

Mr. Charles: Loud and clear.

Madam Chairman: You said that you are peaceful as usual.

That is not like you.

Mr. Charles: Excellent and peaceful, but you must remember that though I am always peaceful, I am always prepared for the worst kind of war.

[Laughter] Madam Chairman: Yes, I know.

I know you well Mr. Hochoy Charles, very, very well, many, many years.

UNREVISED 6 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Mr. Charles: Thank you very much.

2021/06/04 Dr. Dillon-Remy: Mr. Charles, that sounds like the lion and the lamb.

Mr. Charles: That is the name too you know.

[Laughter] That is right, I am a follower, you know, I am a follower of that, the lion and the lamb.

Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Member Dillon-Remy, do not encourage Mr. Hochoy Charles, please, do not.

I beg of you.
I beg of you.

Dr. Dillon-Remy: Chair, I think you can start the thing and the Attorney General take over when he comes.

Madam Chairman: Yeah, that is what I am thinking also.

Thank you.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, may I suggest that you do please start.

I apologize.

I am just juggling something that is critical at this moment, forgive me because of the other duties.

If you could start for me and I will join you in just two minutes.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

So, the only thing is—all right, okay.


Okay, is it Justin who is doing it?

Go ahead Justin, you can continue to scroll up.

As you know members, these are just the arrangement of the clauses and what we have before us now is the Preamble.

I am not seeing this very clearly on my—okay, just one second please.
So the Preamble states very clearly that this is an Act that requests, sorry, that we need a special majority in order to pass this item of legislation because it is an entrenched amendment to the Constitution, so that we will need a three-fourths majority in the House of Representatives and a two-thirds majority in the Senate.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, I am back.

Madam Chairman: Okay, go ahead AG, all I got to was the Preamble.

Mr. Al-Rawi: The Preamble, I heard you.


Madam Chairman: Yes, all right, go ahead.

Mr. Al-Rawi: My apology.

Distinguished guests and hon.

Members, I apologize as UNREVISED 7 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 well.

So hon.
So hon.

Members, I was saying, and invited guests, that the work of the Committee was first of all received—the legislation proposed to act within the parameters of the policy prescriptions of that legislation and to come up with a working product that could deliver to Tobago within the parameters of “doability”, I am going to use that word, the relief that Tobago has always had in mind and so rightly deserves.
The work product coming out of the Tobago Bill that the Joint Select Committee considered in the last Parliament and in this Parliament effectively captures the vast majority of the items and those which have not been captured can now be traversed and explained so that members feel comfortable to consider what is before them.

The work product has been divided into two products.
The first is a Bill to amend the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, and the second is to repeal the Tobago House of Assembly Act and to introduce a second piece of law which created Tobago Island Government structure.

Importantly, the law also contemplates the repeal and consequential amendment of another package of laws, because to operationalize the laws before us there is an urgent requirement that we actually amend certain other laws.

So let me summarize the position: 1.


It means that we have a Bill No.

1 which is the Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2021; We have the Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021, and; There are consequential amendments to a number of laws to make this 2.

3. package of laws work.


This will involve a repealing of the Tobago House of Assembly Act which only took Tobago so far and very importantly this will also involve—and member de Freitas will be the person charged with the responsibility to explain this.

Member de UNREVISED 8 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Freitas will explain how the very offensive concept of Tobago being a ward of Trinidad, the colony, is going to be amended by way of a repeal of that ordering council that is so very offensive.

Permit me therefore to jump into the Constitution.


The Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago sets out in section 54 of the Constitution the concept of entrenchment of certain sacred provisions in the Constitution.
The sacred provisions in the Constitution were viewed by the framers in 1962 and also in 1976 to be so sacred that the Parliament of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago should only be able to amend the Constitution in certain areas if they achieved a certain level of support of the Parliament.
In this particular dynamic we are looking at the very deepest form of entrenchment of protected provision and we are therefore inviting the Parliament at the deepest level by section 54 to amend the constitutional backbone by a vote of three-quarters of the House of Representatives and by a vote of two-thirds of the Senate.

That is the deepest level of entrenchment that the Constitution contemplates.
With this entrenchment provision being triggered, if the House of Representatives and if the Senate is able to enjoy the support of colleagues in both Houses, the Government not enjoying a special majority and the Government also not enjoying a deep special majority, and any government not having a special majority in the Senate, because no Government does, the following matters are on deck for consideration.
The first thing is that we are amending the Constitution and we are labelling this law as the Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Act.

We propose this law will come into operation on a date to be fixed by the President, because if this law is passed with the special majority support that it requires the operational UNREVISED 9 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 amendment are going to have to be put into play and it is usual to put a proclamation clause, the proclamation clause allows you to partially proclaim laws.

In other words then, some laws may start in advance of others as they are triggered first to provide the bedrock for the operationalization of laws.

The first thing that we are treating with is that the policy from the Tobago Bill.
The policy is that Trinidad and Tobago is to remain a unitary state of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

The unitary state of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is therefore not a succession of Tobago and it is therefore not a federal environment being created.

So, what we are looking at in the position of the unitary state being preserved and therefore we very quickly in the 21 clauses that we are looking at in this Bill, we treat with the Preamble of the Constitution being amended.
Importantly, the Preamble is being amended with the consequential repealing of Tobago being a ward of Trinidad.

That is number one.

If not in this Bill because it is in the other Bill.

Number two, the right to self-determination is clearly set out in the Preamble of the Constitution because when you are interpreting laws the Preamble becomes relevant.

That is set out in all of the case laws that we have from the Privy Council coming down where we look to interpret what the laws mean.
And therefore, Tobago’s right to self-determination and the equality of status for the people of the island of Tobago is maintained in this very strict form such that there can be no doubt in mind that the people of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago are equal in every sense of the word.

This is a topic that was of serious coincidental concern to all of the stakeholders present today.
We addressed the issue of the equality of status which was a shared concern by proposing an amendment to the Constitution, and that amendment to the Constitution is to be found in clause 4, where we treat with the UNREVISED 10 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 unequivocal statement that there shall be equality of the status of the people of the island of Trinidad and the people of the island of Tobago, enabling them all to a fair share of the resources and opportunities, et cetera.

That therefore preserves section 1 of the Constitution and section 1 of the Constitution is where there shall be a unitary state of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
So, this clause 4 is a very critically important clause that provides and addresses the concerns of the equality of status.

The next clause that we treat with and there are some large issues, there are certain large issues in the Constitution that had to be treated with.
I would stick a pin for a moment and say, section 53 of the Constitution is where we amend the Constitution’s structure for the making of the law, for the peace, order and good governance; section 75 of the Constitution is where a Cabinet would go to work; section 75 and section 53 are therefore the backbone aspects of giving the Tobago Island Government its constitutional strength.

I want to remind you that the Constitution is framework legislation, it is not prescriptive legislation.
What does that mean?

The Constitution does not go into minutiae detail, individual laws go into minutiae details and very importantly when we give Tobago the right to make its own laws therefore the prescriptive aspect of it can be built out and will be built out that way.

Tobago is to decide where it is to go and the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago decides where it goes as well.

If we look at clause 5 of the Bill, we are now looking at the concept of amending section 3 of the Constitution.
Here is where we insert the definitions that are going to be articulated.

There were submissions coming in as to how we ought to name certain aspects; how we ought to name the people that are going to lead the island of Tobago.

There was discussion between Premier versus Chief Secretary versus the Tobago Island Government.

All UNREVISED 11 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 of these concerns have been captured in the legislation before us.
We have also treated with how we are managing the aspect of the public service and I would come to that when we get down to the public service that Tobago is going to have focal point and management on.

It is important to introduce the Tobago Island Government, the Tobago Executive Council, the Tobago Legislature; it is important to introduce the Tobago Act concept because Tobago is now for the first time going to have the ability to make laws for the peace, order and good governance of Tobago.
We then turn to the particular position as to how one treats with the definition for Tobago.

This is very important to understand that the definition of what Tobago is, is in the Tobago Island Government Bill.

That definition sets up the island of Tobago together with the other island and you would see in the Tobago Island Government Bill, when member de Freitas gets to it, how we treat with the blue economy of Tobago, the maritime boundaries, et cetera.
I can just flag already that the administrative management for Tobago has been agreed by this Committee as at 11 nautical miles as requested by Tobago.
The difference on this occasion here constitutionally to the definition of Tobago is that we are not touching the definition of Trinidad and Tobago as an archipelagic state, which is a unitary state, because if we were to define the waters of Tobago versus the waters of Trinidad what would happen is we would lose a significant amount of our water and marine acreage as a Republic and we would concede our benefit in the exclusive economic zone that we have with our neighbours: Barbados, Grenada, Suriname, Guyana, Venezuela, we would lose acreage and therefore Trinidad and Tobago as an archipelagic unitary would give up essential oil and gas rights or maritime and fishing rights, et cetera.
UNREVISED 12 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 So, what we have done is to preserve a methodology where the unitary state survives, where Trinidad and Tobago as a Republic benefits as a whole and does not give up on its law of the sea claim and its shipping issues and maritime and blue economy issues.
The Tobago Island Government Bill is going to treat with the 11 nautical miles from an administrative perspective so that Tobago enjoys the autonomy of administering up to 11 nautical miles as it is requested in its administrative zone that is not a conflict of international law from my perspective as Attorney General nor is it to give up any acreage of ours.

Clause 6 is very simple; it is just to introduce the basic concept of Tobago Legislature to make the law work.

We get to clause 7.
We get to clause 7.

Clause 7 is an important clause where we are amending section 52 of the Constitution.
It is here that we insert the new subsection (1A) in particular and here it is we have given the equality for the interpretation as we would for an appointment of a Member to the House of Representatives or to the Senate, we are giving the equality to challenge those proceedings, exactly as we do for the national election, to challenge the clarification in law we are giving in the same priority for the members of the House of Assembly, et cetera.
So, this is to make Tobago on par with the national legislative position so that we can get that.

This came about as a comment from the Law Association which recommended that the clarification via court process as to whether somebody validly appointed as a member of the House of Assembly should resemble what the Trinidadian national context looks like in the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, forgive me.

3.45 p.m.

Clause 8: Clause 8 is one of the backbone amendments.
This is the amendment to section 53 of the Constitution.

Section 53 is where you say that Parliament has the UNREVISED 13 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 authority to “make laws for the peace, order and good government” of Trinidad and Tobago.

Therefore, it is important to amend section 53 by saying that there is a position that we allow Tobago to “make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago” via the Tobago Legislature.
There were many comments here and we considered all of the comments.

The comments were all essentially gathered around how the island of Tobago ought to have its laws advanced.

It is important to note that there is a retention of powers by the Parliament of Republic of Trinidad and Tobago—I will explain that in a moment—and that that is something that we had to consider because of a concept called conflict of laws.
If the Tobago mission was to go into a federated state, that would be different; if the Tobago mission was succession, that would be different, but as we are dealing with a unitary state we have to treat with what every other jurisdiction in the world has, that is, the conflict of laws.

It is in that position that we have taken the opportunity to devolve specified powers to the Tobago Island Government.

The Tobago Legislature must enjoy its power.


The national power that we have is inserting exceptional circumstances.

The comments that we received argued that only a very basic amount of power should be— [Technical difficulties] —to the national Parliament.

The Committee took another approach.


The Committee looked to the jurisdictional experience in St. Kitts and Nevis, and in Tanzania, and also to how the THA Act works, and in order to ensure certainty of law, we adopted the prescription that other jurisdictions have used very successfully—in particular right here in the Caribbean—to specify what it is Tobago can do with specificity and what matters are reserved to the national Parliament.
So, you will note that the limitation in terms of specificity in section 53, is that: UNREVISED 14 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 “…the Tobago Legislature may make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago; The power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws shall not”—be extended— “to— (a) (b) altering the provisions of this Constitution; or any matter set out in Chapter 1…” Chapter 1 is extremely important to the Constitution.
Those are the fundamental and entrenched rights.

They include, for instance, the savings law formula by which pre-1962 laws are still in operation, for example, the ability to have someone sentenced to death and death still being constitutional.

It is also inclusive of the emergency powers for states of emergency, et cetera.
So in order to preserve the sanctity of Chapter 1 of the Constitution, which are the essential rights, enshrined rights and privileges, emergency powers, et cetera, the unitary state of Trinidad and Tobago, the power to amend those laws are reserved to the national legislature and we ask that the Tobago Legislature not engage in those so that we do not unwittingly—anyone of us whether at the national level or at the Tobago level— find that we are in conflict of laws where they say well hold on, a law in Tobago was amended and that impliedly repealed a saved law.
Then all of a sudden you may very well find that you have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

The power of Parliament, that is the national Republican Parliament, to make laws having effect to Tobago are specified in subsection (5).
The power of the national Parliament as it relates to matters having effect in Tobago are limited to external affairs, national security, states of public emergency and national financial crisis, and that specifically is where we provide a useful sailing tool for the conflict.

We say in subsection (6) that whilst we reserve those matters to national Parliament UNREVISED 15 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 as every other jurisdiction that has autonomy has, we say that provision shall accordingly have effect in the island of Tobago, and where there is inconsistency between that provision and the provision of a Tobago Act, the provision of the Act passed by the national Parliament shall prevail.

This conflict of laws caveat and clause is critical so that we know with certainty how the laws of Trinidad and Tobago will be interpreted.
We say where there is any inconsistency, very importantly taking account of the stakeholder comments that we got, subclause (7) is a critical note.

We say it is an inconsistency where possible the law should: “…be construed with such modifications, adaptations, qualifications and exceptions as may be necessary to bring the Tobago Act in conformity with…”—the Act passed by Parliament.
This is a very critical clause to allow the will and spirit of a Tobago law to survive even if there is an inconsistency of the law.

As you know the courts have the jurisdiction to interpret laws, and therefore, the Parliament is now saying that the spirit and essence of a Tobago law ought to be preserved where there is an inconsistency of laws.

We propose in clause 9 that we amend after “139”.

We are now adding in with several clauses by way of cross-reference which come alive a little bit later on.
That is the new sections 141A to 141Q, and you will see that coming alive a little bit later.

Let us jump to clause 10.

Here is where we treat with section 61.

Now, remember section 64 of the Constitution in clause 9 is where we deal with the entrenchment.

What does that mean?

That is where we have the safeguard in the Constitution that says you cannot amend certain laws unless you get, as in this Bill, a two-thirds majority or a three-quarters majority.
So, we are entrenching in clause 9 those UNREVISED 16 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 sections 141A to 141Q.

We are putting special measures of protection around those laws so that they cannot be changed “nilly willy” or by simple majority aspects depending upon how you wish to look at it.
Clause 10 is section 61 of the Constitution; 61 of the Constitution we are causing and repealing a new insertion and we are putting the power of Parliament to make laws in a very specific way; the power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws, how we treat with the statute, how the Tobago Bills are to be passed, the full prescription of how the Bills are to go into operation come into effect here.

Clause 11 is another major architectural point.


The fact is that section 75 of the Constitution is a very critical aspect.

Section 75 of the Constitution is where the Cabinet of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is brought to life, and where the management of the country is given to the Cabinet in administrative context.

Therefore, section 75 has to be amended by clause 11 to allow for the Tobago operationality, and it is in the new subsection (1)(b).
In relation to Tobago, no responsibility is given to the Cabinet for the matters prescribed under section 75A(1)(b) unless there is an emergency or unforeseen circumstance requiring the intervention of the Cabinet.

This is done so that— [Technical difficulties] —in the schedule the exclusive executive powers that the Tobago Island Government will have.

That comes to life in the second Bill.

The Third Schedule lists all of the devolved law-making powers.
So, importantly, section 75 is being amended to create—I am going to use this term—a Tobago Cabinet.

The Tobago Cabinet’s power is entrenched.

That therefore comes to life in the second Bill.

We want to say now what the safeguards are.

So it would be important to understand, for instance, the areas in which Cabinet can intervene.

That is now prescribed.

That is set out.

The launching part for this is in clause 11 here.

We say UNREVISED 17 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 what is the event of an emergency or unforeseen circumstance.

You will see that that is to be interpreted by the provision that we had above that we just mentioned, where the spirit and will of the Tobago Island Government is brought to life and preserved by the court having a position.

We also have a conflict resolution structure where we get into this.
The area of emergency or unforeseen circumstance has to be demonstratively so.

It is not normal to define those things in prescriptive context.

It is instead a normal to put it in a framework context.

If you look onscreen you see in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) where the emergency aspects come about.

There is an expressed request, invitation from the Tobago Executive Council where it is reasonable in the circumstances, there is an urgency circumstances.
So, we have provided at this structure in subsection (3) that in determining if there is an emergency or unforeseen circumstance requiring intervention for the Trinidad and Tobago Cabinet, that the Cabinet must consider the following matters if: “(a) there is an expressed request or invitation for the Tobago Executive Council; (c) where a request under…(a) has not been received within a reasonable period…Cabinet through a Minister…”—must go and knock on the door of the Tobago Executive Council to establish its position;—“or (d) due to an emergency, some urgent circumstance, consultation under…(b) has not been had or it is not practicable.” And we say where Cabinet has intervened under this subsection, the Cabinet Island Government shall cooperate with the Cabinet in the management of the emergency or unforeseen circumstance.
So even though the Trinidad and Tobago Cabinet is triggered, it must get back to Tobago, consult, work with, cooperate, and UNREVISED 18 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 subsection (3) does not apply within the state of public emergency.

Why?

Because that is where sections 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 of the Constitution kick in.

Let us jump to clause 12— Madam Chairman: Just one second.

AG— Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes.


Madam Chairman:—what I am thinking because this is heavy going for the members of the—our guests.

So I did say that we would not take questions whilst you were doing your presentation, but perhaps we can take some questions given that you are going into the Tobago Executive Council from here.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Sure, Madam Chair Madam Chairman: So let us take some questions in relation to what we have already heard from you.
Members, are there any questions in relation to what we heard from the AG already?

Ms. Davidson-Celestine: That is a point of clarification, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: Yes.

Ms. Davidson-Celestine: The AG referenced 11 nautical miles, but in the document I saw eight.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes.

That is a decision that this Committee took today— Ms. Davidson-Celestine: Okay.
Mr. Al-Rawi:—because we—I got the opportunity to go back and have a look at the law to satisfy myself as to what we were doing would not offend the international law claims that we had, which is what I addressed in the beginning.

You are completely correct.

It says eight because we have amended that having had the opportunity to clarify the law.

Madam Chairman: All right.

Okay.

Thank you.

Any another questions, please?

UNREVISED 19 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Okay.


AG, continue.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: So, we at clause 12.

2021/06/04 Mr. Al-Rawi: Okay.

So clause 12 is—just give me one second.

Okay.

Clause 12— and forgive me, Madam Chair, I just want to pull up a different position.

Okay.

Clause 12 is where we create the Tobago Executive Council.

Here is where we put in the very important provision on them having exactly as the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago has a Cabinet.
Here is where the Tobago Executive Council has the general direction and control of the Island Government of Tobago, and they also have the collective responsibility.

So that is to establish the very terminology and sentiments of how a Cabinet operates in the Westminster system that we are in the Commonwealth.
We also have the fact that they: “shall continue to discharge its functions during any period that the Tobago legislature is dissolved.” That is again mirroring the concept of how we treat with a Cabinet continuing until a general election is held.

So, you may call an election date and then it is only when the election result is final and there is a new government that is comprised that the executive members step out of office.
Madam Chair, we did not have many comments on any of these coming from the stakeholders, that is the whole concept of the operation of the Tobago version of a Cabinet, and this is all on clause 12.

Nor did we have any comment in relation to clause 13 where we dealt with Her Excellency the President, the functionality of the President.

These were standard clauses that most people did not have any objections to.
They had no comments that were of note coming from any of the stakeholders present on clauses 12, 13 and 14 because they mirrored the national perspective.

UNREVISED 20 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 If I could therefore in those circumstances jump quickly to clause 15.

Clause 15 is where we treat with the whole issue of the service commission.

This is a big issue of concern.


Many stakeholders raised the practical function of feeling that Tobago was being kept back by the bureaucracy of the Trinidad perspective and there was a desire to find a mechanism to allow Tobago to handle its civil service, but obviously because we are maintaining a unitary state that had to be so within the umbrella of the Public Service Commission.

What we have done, therefore, is a very important amendment to section 120 of the Constitution.
Here we are adding on the cohort to allow Tobago to feel— Madam Chairman: Attorney General.

Member Al-Rawi, could you just stop for a minute please?

I just got a message that this Meeting is being broadcast on YouTube, and if that is so could whoever is doing that please stop that right now because this is a private meeting and it should not be broadcast.
The work of this Committee continues to be within the four walls of the Committee and cannot be broadcast because it will be against parliamentary Standing Orders.

So if that is so, whoever is doing that could you stop doing that now please, immediately.

And I am very disappointed if somebody is doing that.

Mr. Jarrette: Madam Chair, this is being broadcast on the parliamentary website.

Member: Oh.

Mr. Jarrette: It is on the parliamentary website.

Madam Chairman: That is not so.


Mr. Jarrette: I am seeing YouTube— Madam Chairman: If somebody is broadcasting this on YouTube—that is what I said, YouTube—please stop it because it is not allowed.

This is an in camera meeting.

This is an in camera meeting.

UNREVISED 21 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Mr. Jarrette: It is being broadcast because I am seeing live on YouTube here, on the screen.

“It just pop up”.
“It just pop up”.

Member: Madam Chair, it looks as if it is coming from ParlView.

Is ParlView not the official YouTube account of the Parliament?

Madam Chairman: Mrs. Sampson, could you respond to that please?

Member: So, verify because a link was sent around and it is coming from ParlView.

In fact, I could perhaps— Madam Chairman: I cannot see that.

Thank you very much for trying, but I cannot see that.

Could I get some feedback from the Secretariat please?
Until I get feedback, could you hold please, member Al-Rawi?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, Madam Chair.

Ms. Jacob: Mrs. Robinson-Regis, are you hearing me?

It is Keiba.

Mr. Al-Rawi: We are hearing you, please proceed.

Ms. Jacob: The meeting is being broadcast on a private YouTube link for Hansard, because as we have witnesses in the meeting Hansard has to record the verbatim notes of the meeting.

So if you go on to the ParlView link there is no broadcast of this Meeting on our ParlView channel.
Madam Chairman: So there is no— Ms. Jacob: There is no public— Madam Chairman: So there is supposed to be no public broadcast.

So if somebody is broadcasting this publicly, could you please desist?

It is not allowed.

Keiba could you make sure what is happening please and I am not going to resume the meeting, I want to know exactly what is taking place.

Ms. Jacob: Okay sure.

Just give us a few minutes please.

Madam Chairman: Yes, I will.

Thank you.

UNREVISED 22 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Mrs. Sampson-Miguel: Chairman, it looks as though somebody took a feed from our feed.

Probably they were unaware of the fact that it is a private meeting.

We do not know who the person is, but it will be somebody in the room has shared—I do not even know how that is possible, but we are dealing with it.

Thank you very much.


Madam Chairman: So when you have dealt with it could you let me know please because only then I will resume the meeting.

Mrs. Sampson-Miguel: Certainly, Chairman.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Is it that we would have to come out of this link and resume on a different link?

Mrs. Sampson-Miguel: No, Chairman.


It just simply means unfortunately we would not be able to have any Hansard recording because we will have to take that down the private recording in the room unfortunately because someone is in fact relaying it out via a WhatsApp link.

I think it may still be on actually.

So it simply means that the meeting will definitely be totally—there will be no notes afterwards because our Hansard workers are working from home and this is the way that they get the notes.
So we would have to stop unless whoever is doing this takes down the link that they have shared, if even that is possible at this stage.

Madam Chairman: The notes of this Meeting are very important for the Hansard record.

If somebody is doing that, could you please desist?

This is really ridiculous, this is very unfortunate, and this is very disappointing.
Member: Chairman, I do not think if the link was shared already— Chairman, if the link was shared already, I do not think there is— Madam Chairman: We cannot do anything about it.

Yeah.

And the link has been shared because I am getting—somebody has just sent me something that says that you can join by sharing this link.

You know that that is really ridiculous.

We are all UNREVISED 23 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 adults here, all trying to do the work of the people of Trinidad and Tobago and somebody would be so— Dr. Dillon-Remy: Chair, is it possible to just change the link and have everybody use a different link?

Madam Chairman: I am being told that that cannot be done at this time.

Mrs. Sampson-Miguel: Chairman, that is okay.

Just give us about two minutes.


We are going to take down the link to Hansard and that is okay, then you will be able to continue after.

4.15 p.m. Meeting resumed in Zoom.

Mr. Al-Rawi: We looked at how party politics can create gridlocks, et cetera.

We looked at appointments to be made by the President.

We looked at the modifications that came to us well in respect of the dominance of the— [Technical difficulties] — of the Trinidad “Parliament” having domination, et cetera.
So if you look to clause 19, Madam Chair, in its full form, you will see that we have in fact made a number of amendments in line with contributions coming and what we can do is explain some of the factors that we have dealt with and in the explanation of this, I would just like to go through very quickly now the structures that we have.

So we have the Tobago Legislature, this is a new Chapter 11A.
Bear in mind that there is a whole chapter now which—there was a chapter which created the Tobago House of Assembly as members would be well aware.

Now, we are dealing with the Chapter 11A which is repealing what the THA entrenchment is in the Constitution looked like and now we are putting the Tobago Legislature.

Remember the THA was a body corporate created as a statutory authority.
One could argue it even looked close to a regional health authority or a municipal corporation or “ah UNREVISED 24 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 WASA”.

Those are all corporate entities as the Tobago House of Assembly was a corporate entity.

What we have now is the Tobago Legislature.

This is a very dramatically different creature from a body corporate.

We established by the new Chapter, the establishment of a Tobago Legislature.
There is a President of the House of Assembly.

We are dealing with that in 141A.

We are looking at that having its power referring back to section 53 of the Constitution as amended where they have the power to make in the Constitution, law for the peace, order and good governance of Tobago.

We treat with the concept of the Tobago Legislature having power only subject to the Constitution.

We deal with the birthing of Tobago Act to have effect.
We deal with the Tobago Executive Council and the Tobago Assembly and we treat with the methodologies right now of how they are to proceed with Bills, including amendments of Bills, how they proceed upon Motions, how they receive petitions.

All of these things are very important so that the access to the Tobago Legislature is established in law similar to where the access to the Trinidad and Tobago Republican parliamentary access routes are prescribed in the Constitution as well.
We define very importantly what a public Bill looks like.

We, again, mirror up the constitutional prescriptions that we have for the Speaker of the House or the President of the Senate.

We deal with that in the capacity of the presiding officers in the Tobago Legislature.

We deal with what the concept of money Bills looks like, an appropriation looks like.
That is, again, something which is dealt with in the Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago for the republican aspect of the House of Representatives where a money Bill is defined so we must mirror up the same to get the equality of treatment in that regard.

UNREVISED 25 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 We are treating with, Madam Chair, the composition of the House of Assembly, 141B.

That has been dealt with in its whole position.


We have listed it very carefully preserving the roles of Minority Leader, of the nomenclature, the naming of the presiding officers, of the Chief still continues to operate because there was a point in time when we were contemplating premier because there were submissions of premier provided for a better record point than the Chief Secretary did.

We deal with “Powers, privileges and immunities”.

That is a critical aspect of preserving the freedom of speech.
That is something that is important.

It is why, for instance, we had to shut off the link a little while ago because there is a privilege inside of communities and committees.

So 141C mirrors up section 55 of the Constitution for the national Parliament.

Swearing in is providing for in 141D, how we treat with the elections of presiding officers, deputy presiding officers.

These would be very familiar to members in the concept of the THA.
It says: “Appointment of Chief Secretary and Deputy Chief Secretary” How we treat with that, that is being prescribed.

Vacancy of office, et cetera, we go right down the line to the appointment of secretary, the “Appointment of Minority Leader”.

I think that all Members present here today and invited guests are familiar with exactly how that works in the recent equality of seats that we saw in the Assembly.
So here is where lessons learnt have been translated into the prescription in the Constitution this time.

We treat with the same way the national Parliament treats with Motions of no confidence, et cetera.

These are replicated here.

“Qualification and disqualification for membership”, again, these are replicated here and these are standard provisions.

UNREVISED 26 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 In the Constitution, they replicate what the national Parliament and Senate would look like, House of Representatives and Senate.

Vacancies also prescribed.

“Declaration of vacancy”; the “Filling of vacancies”; the “Dissolution of the Tobago Legislature” and its “Jurisdictional limit”.

So, we very importantly provide for the mirroring of the national Parliament structures inside of the Tobago new Chapter.
This is no longer a body corporate of the Tobago House of Assembly; it is now an equality of status issue.

And 141R which deals with “Jurisdictional limit” is a clause pegged back to those very important provisions that I highlighted a bit earlier, the power to make laws, section 53, the operation of the Tobago Cabinet, if I call it that, in sections 75A, B and C. All of those are critical to tie back into these provisions.
Clause 20 of the Bill, Madam Chair, if I can turn to that, we seek now to insert a new section after 143— [Technical difficulties] —miscellaneous.

So these are important general application.


So when we are looking at these two new insertions, the new section 144 and the new section 145, here is where we have listened to much of the instruction that came as to—there was an argument put on the table that it was a foregone conclusion that any dispute that had a predominant from “Trinidad” representation was bound to fail.

It was dead upon arrival.


The Committee listened to that, Madam Chair, and we introduced “Resolution of dispute” and “Dispute Resolution Committee”.

These are critical modifications and amendments which I think resulted in a much better product.
“Where there is a dispute between the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago Island Government, both parties…shall make every reasonable effort to resolve the dispute by means of mechanisms and procedures provided for or adopted…and shall exhaust such mechanisms and UNREVISED 27 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 procedures before it approaches a Court…” That is important to set up, dispute resolution but also to have the finality of the court as an option.
Here is the important aspect, the Dispute Resolution Committee in section 145.

A dispute resolution committee has been set up here and it is a very different one from the one that we had earlier.
Here we say the Dispute Resolution Committee shall comprise of five members: “(a) two members appointed by the Prime Minister; (b) two…by the Chief Secretary; (c) one…appointed by the President after consultation with the Prime Minister…Chief Secretary…” Immediately here you see the sensibility of removing the foregone conclusion, Government “dominance”.
“(3) The Dispute Resolution Committee shall have the jurisdiction to mediate or mitigate any disputes that may arise in relation to the exercise of administrative powers…” Can I also say that the Dispute Resolution Committee shall make recommendations to the Prime Minister who shall consult with the Chief Secretary before making a decision?
We note here, Madam Chair, that the mere fact that there must be a Dispute Resolution Committee that makes recommendations means that the transparency of recommendations is there.

I want to draw the analogy to section 137 of the Constitution where the Prime Minister, for instance, can consider the removal of a Chief Justice.
It is similar in tone and feeling here because what it does is that it lets the world at large know that a dispute resolution committee works, it considers recommendations, the Prime UNREVISED 28 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Minister must consult, it shall consult and then at the same time a decision is made.
We also provide for the separation of powers principle, the very pillar upon which our Constitution is built and we say: “(5) A review of a decision…shall lie to the High Court.” We say that the final court of appeal is the Court of Appeal so we do not allow for the access to the Privy Council because that would just take us forever.
It is very similar to election petitions in the Constitution in the House of Representatives, et cetera, process, now replicated in the Tobago process where the final court of appeal is the Court of Appeal of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.

Clause 22, Madam Chair, is where we seek the insertions into the Schedules, et cetera, the oath or affirmation, the regular terms and conditions to operationalize how people come on.
Madam Chair, this Bill as we come to the conclusion of it, therefore, represents one aspect of the Tobago structure.

It is intended to be prescriptively operated by the second Bill which member de Freitas will go through.

There is a corollary that is a number of repeals or consequential amendments of law, the most important of which is that very offensive Order in Council.
There are other aspects of constitutional amendments that flow to consequential amendments that come alive so that the power to borrow is exercised, the Corporation Sole’s functions are exercised; the administrative maritime zones are dealt with in the second Bill.

But that in the round, Madam Chair, constitutes the considerations that the Committee engaged in and the further amendments that were made.
Of course, this was made possible by the many comments that came from several of the stakeholders, including those present here today.

Madam Chair, could I open myself up to addressing any issue that may need UNREVISED 29 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 clarification?

2021/06/04 Madam Chairman: AG— [Interruption] Just a minute please.
I would like to suggest that we allow member de Freitas to make his presentation of the Tobago Island Government Bill and then we will ask for questions.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair, I think that is very prudent because a lot of answers may be given in his presentation.

Madam Chairman: I think so too.

Thank you very much.

And may I ask member de Freitas to move straight into the presentation of the Tobago Island Government Bill.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr. de Freitas: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Attorney General, Constitution (Amdt.)

Bill.

I will just wait for the Secretariat to bring up the second Bill which is the Tobago Island Government Bill, 2021, on the screen so that all of our invited guests can follow along as I go through the various courses of the Bill so just hold on for one second while we get them to bring it up on screen for everyone.

Thank you very much to the Secretariat.


So, the second Bill is up on the screen now and you will notice that this Bill goes a tad bit deeper into what the Attorney General was explaining in relation to the first Bill.
And this one is separated into various parts as you can see where Part I deals with the “Preliminary” section of the Bill and then you have Part II which deals with the “Tobago Island Government” and its various structures, Part III deals with the “Tobago Legislature” and its various structures, Part IV is where the financial provisions are put into the Bill, Part V is where you deal with the 1996 Act.
We need to have those transitional provisions put in place to ensure that you have a smooth transition from one to the other.

Then you move on to Part VI where you would have your general provisions and then you will have the various Schedules UNREVISED 30 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 which is the meat of the Bill that deals with a: 2021/06/04 “…List of Matters for Which the Tobago Executive Council Shall Have Exclusive Administrative Jurisdiction…” Schedule 2 which is a: “…List of Matters for Which the Tobago Legislature Shall Have Exclusive Law Making Powers in Tobago” So, if we can scroll down to Part I where we deal with the “Preliminary” sections.
So you have the “Short title”, the “Commencement” and the “Interpretation” much to the same as you would have seen in the first Bill where we spell out by way of definition what the various terms in the Bill would be.
So you will have your “Fiscal Review Committee” and what it means; you will have what occurs with the “former Assembly”, where it is referenced in the Bill; “former Fund”, “House of Assembly”, “Tobago Act” again, “Tobago Executive Council”, your “Tobago Fund” as well as your “Tobago Island Government” and then your “Tobago Legislature”.
As you move to subclause (2), you have your reference to “Tobago” is also spelt out again here where it means: “…the Island of Tobago, Little Tobago, St. Giles Island, Marble Island, Goat island, Sisters Island and the internal and inland waters of Tobago.” So as you scroll down, you would notice we get to clause 4 where the “Application” begins and here you have the provision that states that: “(1) No provision of this Act or of a Tobago Act shall be interpreted so as to – (a) authorise anything which is inconsistent with, or in derogation of the Constitution; (b) authorise the operation of a Tobago Act beyond the confines of UNREVISED 31 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Tobago; 2021/06/04 (c) authorise any convention, declaration, treaty, protocol, agreement or any international compact of any sort whatever between the Tobago Island Government and any foreign State; or (d) contradict any obligations of Trinidad and Tobago under any convention, declaration, treaty, protocol, agreement or any international compact of any sort whatever between Trinidad and Tobago and any foreign State.” So this brings into effect by way of application the protection that you will have by way of the Tobago Acts not interfering per se with international treaties or anything that the unitary State of Trinidad and Tobago would have signed up to and we would have noticed that in the earlier clauses of the first Bill where it spoke to that in terms of the jurisdiction by which Tobago Legislature is going to be able to make laws and to the powers that are retained by the national Legislature of Trinidad and Tobago.
So, when we move on to 4(2), it indicates that: “The Tobago Island Government shall not do or undertake any action contrary to any obligation of Trinidad and Tobago under any convention, declaration, treaty, protocol, agreement or any international compact of any sort whatever between Trinidad and Tobago and any foreign State.” It goes on at (3) to say: “The Tobago Legislature shall not enact any law contrary to any obligation of Trinidad and Tobago under any convention, declaration, treaty, protocol, agreement or any international compact of any sort whatever between UNREVISED 32 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Trinidad and Tobago and any foreign State.” And that is where the protection in relation to the unitary State and its treaties comes in.
So, we move on to Part II of this particular second Bill where we treat now with the “Tobago Island Government”, specifically in clause 5, the “Tobago Executive Council”, its “Jurisdiction for administration” in relation to Schedule 1 and we have there at clause 5: “(1) In accordance with the powers under section 75A (1) (b) of the Constitution, the Tobago Executive Council shall have exclusive jurisdiction for the administration within Tobago of the matters set out in Schedule 1.” And we will get to Schedule 1 when we get to the end of the Bill where it has all of the matters laid out there but this is just the clause that gives Tobago the exclusive jurisdiction for that administration in that Schedule.
In clause 5(2), we have: “The exclusive administrative jurisdiction, conferred on the Tobago Executive Council by subsection (1)”—which is the one we just read—“in relation to the list of matters set out in Schedule 1, shall extend to such part of the territorial sea of Trinidad and Tobago comprising those areas of the sea having as their inner limits the low watermark of Tobago and as their outer limits, a line measured seaward from that low watermark, every point of which is at a distance…” And this is the document that Assemblywoman Tracy Davidson-Celestine indicated where she saw the eight but the Attorney General responded to indicate that today, the Committee decided that that eight would be removed and it would go UNREVISED 33 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 up to 11 nautical miles from the nearest point of that low watermark.

And as the Attorney General rightly stated, this is the part of the Bill that speaks to those nautical miles to which Tobago will have administrative functions.
And this came really and truly from the robust commentary that we got during the consultations in Tobago where we did give a commitment that based on the issues that were raised at the time, that we would look at it to see what could be worked out to ensure that something like this could be done; so we are up to 11 nautical miles and that was one of the major changes that was done between when we did our consultations in Tobago and what we have come up with now.
So, we move on to clause 6 where we treat with “Meetings between Prime Minister and Chief Secretary”.
This is a holdover from the previous or the current THA 1996 Act where: “The Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary shall hold quarterly meetings with a view to formulating administrative and legislative mechanisms for the promotion of harmony in the affairs of Trinidad and Tobago.” As subclause (2) would indicate that: “The Chief Secretary may if invited by the Prime Minister so to do, attend meetings of Cabinet in order that the Chief Secretary may represent the interests of Tobago in any matter having or likely to having an effect on Tobago.” Again, this was present before and therefore it is also present in this Bill, it is not removed so that pathway for collaboration between the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary by way of the Cabinet and by way of quarterly meetings is maintained.
We move on to clause 7 where we treat with the “Tobago Island Government UNREVISED 34 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 to act on behalf of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago”.
So we have at (1): “The Government of Trinidad and Tobago may by way of Memorandum of Understanding authorise the Tobago Island Government to act on behalf of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago in respect of any of its responsibilities in”—relation to—“Tobago.” And this mechanism allows for a bolstering of the relationship between Trinidad and Tobago which is the unitary state and the self-governing, self-determining island of Tobago by way of its Tobago Island Government by way of the memorandums of understanding to allow the effective execution of functions and policies.
We move on to (2): “Where a statutory authority or a State enterprise provides services in Tobago that authority or enterprise shall in providing those services act in accordance with the policies and programmes of the Tobago Island Government.” Again, another clause, a subclause to clause 7 which ensures that where these state enterprises or authorities are operating in Tobago, that it shall do so in accordance with the policies and programmes of the Tobago Island Government to ensure that those policies and programmes have a certain level of continuity and authority as it relates to the island of Tobago.
We move on to the “Powers of a Secretary” under clause 8 and this is all straightforward.

Where you have a secretary, that: “…Secretary is assigned responsibility for a Division of the House of Assembly, he”—or she—“shall exercise general direction and control over that Division.” Nothing untoward there, that is what occurs now.

In subclause (2), you have: “Nothing in this Act shall affect mutual consultation between a Minister UNREVISED 35 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 and…”—his—“Secretary.

2021/06/04 So the collaboration between the Minister who has responsibility for Trinidad and Tobago and his Secretary who has responsibility for the Tobago Island Government and instituting policies will maintain a collaboration between those two individuals in terms of executing, like I said, policies and programmes for Tobago Island Government as well as what may need to occur from a national standpoint.
We move on to the “Chief Administrator” under clause 9 and it maintains that position by saying that: “There shall be assigned to the Tobago Island Government, a Chief Administrator who shall be a public officer for the purposes of section 121 of the Constitution.” Again, that position is maintained coming forward from the 1996 Act.
Under subclause (2) of clause 9: “The Chief Administrator shall be an Accounting Officer who shall be responsible for such Division as may be assigned to him by the Chief Secretary.” Again, all maintained.
We move on to “Administrators” which comes below the Chief Administrator in terms of hierarchy and you will find the clauses that refer to them are clause 10(1) where it states that: “Each Division of the Tobago Island Government shall be under the supervision of an Administrator who shall be the Accounting Officer of the Division under his supervision.” Again, nothing has changed from the 1996, under that Act and what prevails now.
Under subclause (2), we indicated that: UNREVISED 36 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 “The terms and conditions of service of an Administrator shall be equivalent to those of a Deputy Permanent Secretary.” We have placed this inside of this particular Bill to ensure that the terms and services of the Administrator is equivalent to that of a Deputy Permanent Secretary in Trinidad because the roles and functions are pretty similar there and the remuneration should be in terms of the terms and conditions equivalent.
We will move on now to the “Appointment on contract” in relation to clause 11 where it says: “Subject to the guidelines prescribed or issued by the Government in respect of the employment of persons on contract, the Tobago Island Government may appoint on contract such persons as it thinks fit.” Again, another clause that maintains what prevails now where the Tobago House of Assembly is able to appoint individuals on contract as it thinks fit to do so.
So we move on to Part III which is the “Tobago Legislature” and this is a continuation of the Tobago Legislature as you would have seen entrenched in the Constitution and it begins at clause 12: “The Tobago Legislature shall be constituted by the President and the House of Assembly.” —which is pretty straightforward.
Clause 13 speaks to: “In accordance with the powers under section 53(2) of the Constitution, the Tobago Legislature may make laws with respect to the matters set out in the Schedule 2.” So this gives the Tobago Legislature the authority to make laws and it is resident in this Bill.

UNREVISED 37 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 At clause 14, where we do our assumptions: “(1) No person elected or appointed to the House of Assembly shall assume the duties of his office until he is administered the relevant oath of office.” Again, another straightforward function.
At subclause (2) of the very same clause 14, it goes out to spell out: “The term of office of a Member of the House of Assembly commences on the day on which he is elected or appointed to office.” We move on— Madam Chairman: Member de Freitas.

Mr. de Freitas: Sure.

Madam Chairman: Let me just ask our guests if they have any questions at this point.

Mr. Dennis: I have a couple of questions but with respect to the previous document.

I do not know if I can ask questions.

Madam Chairman: Okay, all right.


Well then, I meant in relation to this.

Mr. Dennis: Okay.

Madam Chairman: Sorry.

So I will let member de Freitas continue.

Mr. de Freitas: Thank you, Madam Chair.

So we are at clause 14(2) where we ended off and we will now move on to “Time limit for swearing in”.

Again, another straightforward procedure in relation to the population of the Tobago Legislature.
So at clause 15(1) speaks to: “Where a person elected or appointed to serve in the House of Assembly is not present at the meeting referred to in section 141D of the Constitution, he shall be administered the oath of office by the President at a meeting convened UNREVISED 38 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 for that purpose and held not later than one month after the date of his election or appointment to office or, subject to subsection (3), at the next ordinary meeting at which he is present.” And this particular clause just makes a provision for instances where at the first meeting of the House of Assembly where members are sworn in, if a member for whatever reason is not able to attend that particular meeting, then there is a pathway here where the member can be so sworn in.
And it goes on to 15(2) to indicate that: “Subject to subsection (3),” —which is the following subclause— “…where at the expiration of one month from the date of his election”—his or her election—“or appointment, a Member has not taken the oath of office, he is disqualified from assuming the duties and responsibilities of a Member and his seat shall fall vacant.” 4.45 p.m.
Under subsection (3): “The Presiding Officer may resolve before the expiration of the period of one month of the election or appointment of a Member who has not taken the oath of office, either on its own motion or at the request of that Member, to extend the period of one month to a period not exceeding three months, at the end of which extended period, should the Member not be sworn, his seat shall fall vacant.” And that basically means that you can have an extension to which the presiding officer can act to extend or by request of the member, if they are not able to be sworn in for whatever reason, that they have an extension of three months before their seat falls vacant.
So it is not automatically that a month after the seat falls vacant.

But UNREVISED 39 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 what will happen is that it is a month after, with no request by the member and should the presiding officer so deem fit, that the seat falls vacant after that month, or they may act to extend for three months.

Okay?

So “Publication of names of members” are all straightforward.

That occurs now.
That occurs now.

“Remuneration of members” will fall to the Salaries Review Commission, which it does now.

We will move on to the “Appointment of certain Select Committees”, which is relatively new and in that, we did not really have commentary coming in on that because it is pretty straightforward and it mimics what occurs in the national Parliament now by way of oversight for the Executive.

And so, we move on.

Ms. Hackett: Are you hearing me?

Mr. de Freitas: Yes, Assemblywoman Hackett?

Hello?
Hello?

I do not know if her mike came off.

I am not hearing.

Madam Chairman: Go ahead.

Mr. de Freitas: Okay.

So, in terms of setting up the select committees, it goes on to outline exactly how you go about doing that and it speaks to all divisions under the Tobago Executive Council, the authorities created by Tobago Acts.

“…Committee appointed for the purposes set out in subsection (1) may…”— and it goes on to outline the process, which all mimics what occurs in the national Parliament.
It goes on to outline that: “There shall be a Public Accounts Committee…”—again, chaired by the Minority and the same would apply for the Public Administration and Appropriations Committee; all oversight functions for the Tobago UNREVISED 40 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Legislature.

2021/06/04 We have “Exemption from jury service”, straightforward.

“House of Assembly is a public body”, again, straightforward.
It goes on to indicate the: “Members of the House of Assembly…”—as—“persons in public life…” So, all of these are pretty straightforward mechanisms put into the Bill that would have been brought forward from what occurs now in the THA Act of 1996.

The appointment of a clerk and deputy clerk, all straightforward.

Salaries, and allowances of clerk and deputy clerk, again.

So we move on now to Part IV, which again is something that was relatively new and had comments on and it deals with finance.
So we have the “Tobago allocation”, which I think all of the members attending are aware, that it is: “…6.8 percent of the total sum appropriated by Parliament…”—as indicated by the Ministry of Finance.

But it is 6.8 per cent minimum, which can then go up based on reports put forward by the fiscal review commission and approved by the Parliament by resolution.
So we have the establishment of the Tobago Fund which, again, is all pretty straightforward, in terms of the moneys that will go into the Tobago Fund.

We go on to the “Collection of revenues” where it indicates: “(1) Notwithstanding section 13 of the Exchequer and Audit Act, all revenue collected in Tobago on behalf of the Government and payable thereto in respect of activities undertaken or discharged in Tobago shall be paid into the Tobago Fund.
(2) Upon the coming into force of this Act, any company, financial institution or a person operating a business in Tobago shall pay in Tobago all UNREVISED 41 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 taxes…” 2021/06/04 So, all of these are just maintenance of those clauses that would have come from the 1996 Bill in relation to moneys, taxes and what needs to be paid into the Tobago Fund.
“(3) Moneys credited to the Tobago Fund in accordance with subsections (1) and (2) shall be set-off against the annual allocation appropriated by Parliament to the Tobago Fund.” Again, straightforward and repeated.
So we will move on to expenditure, which is clause 32, that indicates: “All expenditure incurred by the Tobago Island Government shall be paid out of the Tobago Fund.” You have the auditing of accounts of the Tobago House of Assembly and it is indicated that there are public accounts of Trinidad and Tobago for the purposes of section 116 of the Constitution.
“Retention of monies”, clause 34: “Monies appropriated by Parliament to the Tobago Fund for the service of a financial year which remain unexpended at the end of that financial year shall be retained by the House of Assembly.” Again, maintenance of a clause that comes from the ’96 Act as well, in terms of retention of moneys.
“Surrender of surplus monies”, at clause 35, speaks to pretty much overpayment and where there is an overpayment, there will be retention of 50 per cent of what is overpaid and the rest goes back to the Consolidated Fund of Trinidad and Tobago.

In subclause (2), it just goes to speaking to where the excess is going back to the Consolidated Fund and it stipulates the time frame, which must happen UNREVISED 42 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 within the first quarter of the following financial year.

We now go to the “Power to borrow”, which, again, we had comments on when we did consultations in Tobago and written comments that were sent in.

With this particular section, you have: “Subject to subsection (2), the Tobago Executive Council shall have the power to borrow locally and internationally…” So you do have the power to borrow locally and internationally, so it is wide borrowing powers.
“…such sums as the Tobago Executive Council considers necessary for the discharge of its functions.” And it goes in to stipulate the purposes for which the Tobago Executive Council may borrow.

Again, very wide in (a), (b), (c) and (d).

“for any purpose relevant to its functions under any written law;” And it goes to spell out the purposes under which the Tobago Executive Council can borrow.
It stipulates, as was indicated before, that: “…subject to the approval of the Minister with responsibility for finance, which should not unreasonably be withheld.” And the reasoning behind this is that the Minister of Finance is vested in by the Constitution for the management of all finances in Trinidad and Tobago and must always have, for lack of a better phrase, a thumb on the debt to GDP ratio and must always have the overarching view in relation to borrowing and all outstanding debts in relation to borrowing that is taking place both in Tobago as well as through the national entities in Trinidad and Tobago.
And so, the Minister of Finance maintains his responsibility there.

But it does indicate that it should not be unreasonably withheld.

And when we get down to the actual committee, I will speak more to the UNREVISED 43 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 relationship between the Minister of Finance and the Secretary of Finance.

So we get down to—of course, when we get down a little further, it will speak to financial rules and regulations.
So, it is not to say that this is something that is just going to—the Tobago Executive Council is going to have carte blanche in relation to that.

These financial rules and regulations would need to be brought to the Tobago Legislature for approval.

Same will happen in relation to the power to invest.

Again, it follows the very same structure as you have with the power to borrow, minus, obviously, the oversight of the Minister of Finance there.
This is a function that is solely and wholly under the responsibility of the Tobago Executive Council, through its Secretary of Finance.

And it goes through (a) to (d) to outline exactly what are the provisions under which the Tobago Executive Council may invest.
We have at subclause (2), that: “The Tobago Executive Council shall delegate its responsibility for the management of an investment account to the Central Bank.” And that does not mean that that is the only way in which the Tobago Executive Council has the ability to invest.

The reason that that clause is there is really to have an investment account managed by the Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago that would be similar to the Heritage and Stabilisation Fund.
However, it must be stated that the Secretary of Finance will be conversing with the Central Bank.

There is no middleman.

There is no sort of oversight by an entity on the national level in relation to that.

That is a conversation between the Secretary of Finance and the Central Bank in relation to the management of that fund.

But like I indicated, it is similar to the Heritage and Stabilisation Fund.

It does not mean that it has to be exactly like the Heritage and Stabilisation Fund.
Again, that is up to the UNREVISED 44 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Tobago Island Government.

And, of course, all of these things need to be dealt with in a particular manner.

Oversight will be had, in relation to this, by the Tobago Legislature and therefore, the management of Tobago’s finances is solely and wholly under the responsibility of Tobago.

We move on to “Financial Rules”.


As I indicated, that is where you would see it in clause 38, where the Secretary of Finance will make the financial rules and they must be approved by the Tobago Legislature.
We move on to “Description of property” at clause 39, where it indicates: “In any civil or criminal proceedings in respect of any monies or other properties whatsoever belonging to, or under the control of the…”—TIG—“it shall be sufficient to describe the same as being the monies or property of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.” We go on to the “Tobago Appropriation Bills”, which is just mimicking the budgetary process that occurs in the national Parliament, which meets—and this is important because this differs from what occurs now, where estimates are sent down to Trinidad to then be brought to the national Parliament for approval through the national budgetary process, but instead we begin with the national budgetary process.
The allocation, in this instance, 6.8 per cent, plus if the report of the FRC is recommended that moneys, once passed off to Tobago Fund, is then brought to the Legislature by way of Tobago Appropriation Bills where you would also have your Standing Finance Committee.

And all of the oversight functions that occur under the budgetary process for the national Parliament would also occur in the Tobago Legislature in order for money to be expended.
The same goes from money being shifted from one account to another is to be done by supplementation appropriation Bill.

You have your “Contingencies Fund”, which is exactly the same as before.

UNREVISED 45 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 And in clause 42, you have your “Fiscal Review Committee” that is set up.
And on this fiscal review committee, you have, as was indicated before, the: “…Chairman, who shall be the Minister with responsibility for finance…” The deputy chairman is the Secretary of Finance.

“one member appointed by the…”—TEC—“and two members appointed by the Cabinet.” We go on to lay out that those members appointed by the Cabinet and the TEC must have very specific qualifications.
And I must indicate at this point that those individuals are professionals, in relation to the economy, in relation to law, management of business and those individuals would pretty much be doing a lot of the heavy lifting because they are the technocrats that would form the committee.
The deputy chairman and the chairman, like I indicated, is the Minister of Finance to whom the finances of Trinidad and Tobago is vested in and the deputy chairman, being the Secretary of Finance, who has responsibility for the finances and managing the finances of Tobago.

It is vested in those two individuals.


It is envisioned that this particular committee would meet on a very regular basis, as they would lay out after their first meeting, and that the level of relationship between the chairman and the deputy chairman is one that, if bolstered, would see Tobago’s development from a financial standpoint bolstered in that regard.

Again, guided by the technocrats on the committee.

It goes on to indicate what the Fiscal Review Committee would be responsible for.
And within here, as we have seen before, it speaks to ensuring that all revenues, fees, duties collected in Tobago are for Tobago; establishment of a mechanism for revenue-sharing, which is important, because it will be fundamentally different from the 6.8 per cent, and it would go on to speak to all of the resources in Trinidad and UNREVISED 46 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Tobago and developing a framework for which revenue sharing can take place in relation to that.
So, we will move on to the processes by which the Fiscal Review Committee, at subsection (5), will take place where it: “…shall submit to Parliament prior to a presentation of the budget in any financial year a report on the review of the sums required to be appropriated.” And it goes on to indicate that the Parliament: “…shall…”—take this into consideration—“in making an appropriation above 6.8 per cent in any financial year.” So we move on to Part V now, in relation to “Transitional Provisions”.
Now, all of these transitional provisions are just to ensure that as you repeal the Act of 1996, that you do not do anything that may cause a disruption in the operationality of what takes place in Tobago right now.

And if you go through that, you would notice in the chapeaus that you have the “Assemblymen deemed to be elected Assembly Members”, remains as such.
“Continuation of Members and rules of the Tobago House of Assembly” continue until the Act is brought into force and certain operational aspects are brought forward.

“Saving of employment” for employees under the Tobago House of Assembly.

“Staff of the Tobago Island Government”, all are transitional arrangements being put in place for those individuals.

“Continuation of association representation”, for employees.
Continuation of “Existing agreements”; “Continuation of collective agreements”; “Right of association”, or the ability to form an association.

“Transferral of monies credited to former Fund and appropriated to former Assembly”, so there is no loss of money any which way.

“Vesting of powers, rights and property in the Tobago Island Government” remains.

UNREVISED 47 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 And I would just indicate here at 52: “Upon the coming into force of this Act— (a) all lands and other property of every kind located in Tobago vested in the State except the residences of the President and Prime Minister are hereby vested in the Secretary of Finance who shall hold them in trust for the Tobago Island Government in right of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago;” And it goes on in (b) to indicate that: (b) all lands and other property of every kind, including things in action, vested in the former Assembly are hereby vested in the Secretary of Finance…” So, all of these things would be now vested in the Secretary of Finance to ensure that there is no loss of the right of access to these things.
Moving on to “Pending Legal” at clause 53: “Legal proceedings pending immediately before the coming into force of this Act by or against the former Assembly may, on the coming into force of this Act, be continued by or against the…”—TIG—“as the party to the proceedings instead of the former Assembly.” You have your “Savings” at 54: “Notwithstanding the repeal of the Tobago House of Assembly Act by this Act, the Tobago House of Assembly Financial Rules, 1990 shall, until such time as Financial Rules are made and approved under section 44”—as I indicated above, would need to be done—“and come into force, remain in force”—again, for operationality purposes—“and apply to the House of Assembly with such modifications as are necessary for conformity with this UNREVISED 48 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Act.” 2021/06/04 Moving on to Part VI, under “General Provisions”, you have “Order to amend Schedules 1 and 2”.

“The President may by Order, subject to negative resolution of Parliament, amend Schedule 1 and 2…”—which is the meat, as I indicated, giving you your legislative powers and your administrative powers to add any other matter.

Again, we are speaking to additions to these Schedules moved by negative resolution by order of the President.
You have consequential amendments at 56: “(1) A reference in any written law to the former Assembly shall be construed as a reference to the House of Assembly or the Tobago Island Government, as the case may be.
(2) A reference in any written law to Assemblyman shall be construed as a reference to Assembly Member.” Again, at this particular point in time, you would notice we moved away from Assemblyman and we have taken on board the suggestion that we should move to Assembly Member, which is not gender specific and is more gender neutral.

At clause 57, we have Chap.

25:03, which is repealed.

That is the actual repeal of the Tobago House of Assembly Act.
You have the “Retiring Allowances”— Madam Chairman: Member de Freitas, sorry.

May I interrupt a little?

Mr. de Freitas: Yes, go ahead.

Madam Chairman: Sorry to do this.

But I think what might be of particular importance to our guests are the Schedules.

So you want to get to the Schedules?

Mr. de Freitas: Yes.

So I think we are coming up on that next.

UNREVISED 49 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Madam Chairman: Right, as quickly as possible.

Thanks.
Thanks.

Mr. de Freitas: Okay.

Right.

Madam Chairman: And, of course, the questions that they have.

Mr. de Freitas: Sure.


So the last thing under this particular “General Provisions” is really the Retiring Allowances (Legislative Service) which would basically just indicate that members of the legislature in Tobago, Chief Secretary as well as the Executive Council would now become legislatures, because the specific amendment that is being put forward here would allow for that to happen and that obviously comes with certain stipulations as a legislator in our Constitution is defined.
So moving on, as Madam Chairman would have indicated, it is just subsequent amendments to various Acts you see here in clause 59.

So at clause 60, same thing, the Statutes Act is amended.

And now we move on to Schedule 1.

So under Schedule 1, as you would know and you would have seen, you have: “The list of matters for which the Tobago Executive Council shall have exclusive administrative jurisdiction in Tobago”.
And what we did here was we took on board all of the matters to which the Tobago House of Assembly would have had jurisdiction under the ’96 Act and we would have added more to it.

But you would notice, as we were scrolling upwards through the areas, that you would notice, for example, under 7, you would have jurisdiction—an exclusive administrative jurisdiction, sorry, under “Education including Curriculum”.

But there are certain exceptions which would remain under the national structure.
One of the exceptions under education would be the national accreditation system, which is the only thing that would be accepted in relation to education and UNREVISED 50 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 then Tobago would have the exclusive jurisdiction under education there.

So, as we scroll forward, you would notice that certain exceptions come up.
Under finance, you would see them there, which is: “Banking (Central and Commercial)” “Macro-economic policy”—and so forth, and so forth.

In total, we have 42 areas that would now fall under the exclusive administrative jurisdiction of the Tobago Island Government.
But you would also notice at 42, where the administrative function, in relation to the 11 nautical miles that we spoke to, is also put in this section to ensure that we do have that administrative function in relation to those territorial waters.

Also, take note of the fact that I indicated everything that was there before in the 1996 Act is there now.

It has been consolidated and we have gone much further to add other areas of jurisdiction.
Moving on to Schedule 2, where we speak to: “The list of matters for which the Tobago Legislature shall have exclusive law making powers in Tobago”.

This is new because this is a new function, obviously, that Tobago did not have before.

And so, this list is generated to ensure that these areas—Tobago would have those exclusive law-making powers and you would notice that it is: “1.

Agriculture.

2.

Borrowing of moneys, or obtaining grants…”—all of which individuals would have seen already.

“3.
“3.

Conservation… 4.

Consumer Affairs 5.

Culture and Entertainment 6.

Economic planning and development… UNREVISED 51 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 7.

8.

Education, training and skills development Emergency Management Systems” I do not need to go through all of them because we have seen them here, but these are the areas in which Tobago will now have law-making powers.
And then, when we come down further from that, we just have the, Madam Chair, regular provisions put at the end of every single Bill that is passed in the national Parliament where the clerks will sign, and the President of the Senate as well as the Speaker of the House will sign.

So, Madam Chair, that is Bill No.

2, and that brings us to the end of this particular presentation.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, member de Freitas.

So we have had the Constitution (Amdt.)


Bill and the Tobago Island Government Bill.

We now open the floor for questions and I know that Assemblyman and Chief Secretary Ancil Dennis has been aching to ask a question.

Go right ahead, please.

What would probably help, if you can—I think you can do the raise hand, members.

If you can do that, that would help.

So, Chief Secretary, if you could ask your question now, please.

Thanks.

Mr. Dennis: Okay.

Thank you.


I just wanted to point out what might have been a couple anomalies in the Constitution amendment part of it, 141F.

Just scroll back to it.

Is it possible to get it up on the screen or should I refer to my document here?

Mrs. Sampson-Meiguel: Chief Secretary, we are putting it up, Sir.

Mr. Dennis: All right.

Thank you.

Mrs. Sampson-Meiguel: Thank you.


Mr. Dennis: Right so, 141F, I think there is some confusion between part (a) and part (b), where part (b) speaks to a party, and I guess that is a political party.

But part (a) simply says: UNREVISED 52 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 “…a member of the House of assembly who commands the support of the majority of members of the House of Assembly...” So, I think the attempt here might have been to mirror what exactly obtains at the level of the Parliament where it says the President will appoint that person or the leader of the party who has the majority support of the members of the Assembly.

Right?
Right?

And the second anomaly has to do with 141—well, even before we get to 141L, just scroll down to the part with the appointment of the Deputy Chief Secretary.

Right.

I think you passed it.

Scroll back up, let me see?

Right.

Madam Chairman: Let me just say that the first point that you made— Mr. Dennis: “Um-hmm.” Madam Chairman:—it is clear that that was an anomaly and we will deal with it.
Mr. Dennis: All right, 141(2): “Where there is occasion for the appointment of a Deputy Chief Secretary…” The part where it says: “…the Chief Secretary shall appoint…” I think that should be: The President shall appoint on the advice of the Chief Secretary.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

We can adjust that.

Thank you.

Mr. Dennis: And the final thing for now, down at 141L.

Actually, it is not L. Let me just find the correct thing.

I think it is L, yes.

Part (2), sorry.

Right.


So it says: “The Chief Secretary shall…vacate…” And that is clear.

But it does not say in part (3) when the Deputy Chief Secretary shall vacate.

So I think part (3), where it says: “A Secretary shall vacate...” UNREVISED 53 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 And if you could scroll down a bit, let me see the conditions.

“(a) when any person is appointed or reappointed as Chief Secretary;”— which is fine.
“(b) where his appointment is revoked by the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary.” That part should include the Deputy Chief Secretary as well.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

We will look at that and make sure that it is in accordance with how it should be done.

Mr. Dennis: All right.

I shall stop there for now.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Chief Secretary.

Member Joel Jack, I am seeing your hand raised.

Mr. Jack: Thank you, Madam Chair.


Two questions, Madam Chair, as it relates one, to the Bill for finance, the annual appropriation to the Tobago House of Assembly.
While clause 29 of the Bill is printed in that it outlines that: “…for any financial year no less than 6.8 percent of the total sum appropriated by Parliament in that financial year or any such percentage…” I think what we want, for there to be some concurrence on between number 39 and 42(4), is that a floor would be established or a minimum balance.

So, it does not give the impression in 42(4)(a) that the Fiscal Review Commission can move away from that 6.8 per cent floor established by section 29.
So, I am not sure if we want to tighten it a bit.

So, again, you have the clauses 29 and 42(4) saying almost the same thing and not leaving it to be interpreted that they can vary it anyway but up, as to the powers given to the Fiscal Review Committee.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

We will take that into consideration and make sure that it is as carefully worded as possible.

UNREVISED 54 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Mr. Jack: And the next issue, Madam Chair, that I would want some clarity on, I know member de Freitas, he outlined it in a bit of detail as to the reason for the delegation of the responsibility to the Central Bank for the management of an investment account.
But what the legislation has done is to leave the responsibility a bit open-ended and probably giving the Central Bank overarching responsibility for the management of the overall finances of investments of the Tobago House of Assembly.

And he was quite clear in indicating that the thinking behind 37(2) was for an account similar to the Heritage and Stabilisation Fund.
And even in treating with that response, even as nationally, the Government is moving to separate the two funds: one heritage and one stabilisation.

5.15 p.m. One, Stabilisation I think in (2), might I recommend that it is spelt out a little clearer with that understanding and as the management of the HSF is solely under the responsibility of the Central Bank, I would want the legislation so to reflect and to be pellucid in that context, Madam Chair.

I thank you.
I thank you.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much and we would make sure that that takes place because we do not want anything to occur that does not reflect what the intention of the Joint Select Committee is.

But member de Freitas, you wanted to say something?

Mr. de Freitas: Yes.

I just wanted to also indicate at this point because a lot of what occurs in the second Bill, we try to leave a lot for Tobago to basically come in and say what it is they do not want.
So just in response to Assemblyman Jack, in relation to the investment account we did not want to lock in Tobago too much.

It is envisioned that the Secretary of Finance would be able to then have a conversation with the Central Bank as to how they want that investment account to operate.

So UNREVISED 55 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 that is why we went just as far to say there shall be an investment account.
The whole operationality of that, which may not mimic the HSF at all.

You may decide how it is that you want that to operate in relation to rules that would be created.

I will work with the Central Bank to come up with something that best benefits Tobago in relation to that.
So, we were trying really not to be too prescriptive in a lot of the things that are being mentioned here, so as to give the Tobago Island Government and the legislature a lot of leeway to build out, as they see fit, a lot of those things.
And so that was the general intention so I am wondering if Assemblyman Jack is indicating if it is that in this legislation, he wanted it to be more prescriptive in terms of how the investment account is set up, or are you okay with the fact that Tobago will be responsible for dealing with that with the Central Bank?

All that is really required is that there will be an investment account, and operationality of that is solely the jurisdictions of Tobago.
Madam Chairman: If I could just add to what member de Freitas said.

What we are trying to do is we want you to understand, all our guests who are here, that this is really framework legislation in large part.

Some aspects of it have been built-out as much as we can do.
But it is framework legislation and because of the fact that the Tobago Island Government and the Tobago Legislature is going to be able to develop laws and regulations for the way that these various clauses will in fact be spelt out and will in fact be dealt with in Tobago, that is why we do not want to be too detailed about what all these different things should be.
Because in fact, what needs to happen is that the legislature when it comes into being will be the one to be able to determine what is best for the people of Tobago.

And you wanted to say something further, member Jack?

UNREVISED 56 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Mr. Jack: All right, thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the clarity provided by your good self and as well member de Freitas.

And I am in full agreement with the intent in terms of the committee.
And also, in taking on board our recommendations or previous recommendations because the previous iteration of this draft was a lot more restrictive, but in terms of us refining it a bit further, and while with its framework law in terms of you know, giving that the timelines and completing legislative agenda, I think it might be in our best interest if we get it probably a little bit more clearer and so that those persons who are responsible for enacting the legislation especially on the finance side, would not take it probably in its strictest sense.
And probably, a written submission I can draft it and submit it so that we can have it a little bit more clearer in the context that we are not placing any stricture with any of our investment decisions as an Assembly or the Executive Council and that recommendation is something that, you know, we want to get on from the onset, Madam Chair.
Madam Chairman: We hear you and quite a lot of what we had put as a committee, put into the legislation we have discussed with the Ministry of Finance, and in fact you would recall that the Bill that came to us suggested that there would be all the Estimates and so on would have to come to Trinidad in order for those Estimates to be approved by the Government of Trinidad and Tobago.
And what we did in fact do as a committee was remove that because that meant that you did not have the type of self-government you were trying to achieve.

When I say you, I mean Tobago was trying to achieve.

So, we did in fact move away from that.

So, what is before us now is a situation where the Tobago Legislature will have to put in place what is best for Tobago in terms of the financial prescriptions that are necessary for the Government to run effectively.

UNREVISED 57 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Mr. Jack: All right.

Thank you, Madam Chair, for that clarity.

Madam Chairman: You are welcome.

I see that Mr. Indarsingh has his hand up, but Mr. Indarsingh could I ask that we allow our guests to ask questions first?

Thank you very much.

If there are other questions?

Are there any other questions from our guests?

No—Mr.—Mr.

Des Vignes?

Mr. Des Vignes: Hi.

I just wanted some clarity.

Thank you very much, Chair.


On the intention as regarded, the inclusion under—on us as legislators, under section— the General Provisions I think it was.

Under 58, section 58.

So, I just wanted to get what the intention was so I could have some clarity on that because I know that is new?

Thank you.

Mr. de Freitas: Thank you, member Des Vignes.

You are talking about section 58 at page—is that the Retiring Allowances?

Yeah, so the Retiring Allowances (Legislative Service) Act is amended.
So, in the Tobago House of Assembly, we would have obviously Assemblymen and Assemblywomen who under the national perspective may not be considered legislators which then would affect their ability to receive certain things when that particular definition is applied.
So, what this does is under that particular Act which is the Retiring Allowances (Legislative Services) Act, it ensures that the various titles where you would come down to read, where it would indicate in definition of “specified legislative office” by adding to the prescribed offices listed in the Schedule.

There is an office schedule there so in other words the Members of Parliament in the House of Representatives would be under that Schedule as well.
So that you are adding these various titles as well.

So you have the Chief Secretary, Deputy Chief Secretary, Secretaries of the House of Assembly, your assistant secretaries, your Minority Leader, Member of the House of Assembly, your Presiding Officer, as well as your Deputy Presiding UNREVISED 58 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Officer.

That clears it up, member Des Vignes?

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: A further question, Mr. de Freitas.

Mr. de Freitas: Sure.


Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Does it in any way take away the role and responsibility of the assembly legislature?

Because previously the terms and conditions were determined by, I think it was the House Committee I am not so sure.

I cannot recall.

But does it in any way take away that responsibility from the THA and now puts it in the hands of the Retiring Allowances (Legislative Services) Act?

Just for clarification?


Mr. de Freitas: So, you would have to define for me just a little bit more exactly what you would be referring to when you say there is a House Committee?

So, are you saying the House Committee as was established under the ’96 Act and the way the THA operates now was responsible for example pensions and everything else?

Mrs. Davidson-Celestine: Yes.

Yes, determining pensions for the members of the Assembly, that kind of thing was since approved.
So, is it that they are non-existent and it takes into consideration what is in the Retiring (Legislative Services) Act?

Or is it this is just for the purpose of definition?

Mr. de Freitas: Well, no.

Because the Retiring (Legislative Services) Act itself would have example for certain things that need to be considered under it.

Now, I was not aware that the THA in relation to, you know, operationality there.
If the Attorney General is around, I will ask him to speak more on this because he would know more in relation to that.

Given the fact that we were not aware that a conflict may have arisen if that is the case.

We know about the Retiring Allowances (Legislative Services) Act as it relates to Members of Parliament, the national Parliament.

But like I said, if that was something that the THA was doing or was UNREVISED 59 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 allowed to do before, then I would ask the Attorney General now, hand over to him if he is still— Mr. Al-Rawi: Madam Chair— Madam Chairman: Yeah, but what I said is that we will ask our guests and after you are finished Attorney General, we will ask Mr. Hochoy Charles who has his hand up also, so I will call on him when you are through.

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, Madam Chair.


Madam Chair, because we were moving away from a body corporate, THA is a body corporate similar to WASA, a municipal corporation.

Because we are moving away from that into an island-government legislature, we are treating with members of the THA moving now into the constitutional arrangement where there is an island government as opposed to a body corporate.
The correct place to treat with the pensionable aspect would be under the retiring legislators’ position because Tobago will now be creating its own law.

So, it would be incongruous to treat with pensionable aspects as a body corporate in the context of legislators sorry—because the Tobago autonomy involves Tobago making its own law, having a unicameral system being in the Constitution, being protected.
So, what we can do, is to first of all accept that that is the general principle, that the equality of status involves raising the Tobago Island Government to the level of a government and not just as a body corporate.

And then secondly, in terms with keeping the quality and parity putting them into the retiring legislators’ ambit.

And thirdly, certainly, the law would tell us that we cannot derogate from the terms and conditions that currently exist.
We have a savings provision where people UNREVISED 60 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 that are continuing to act and pensionable entitlements that are accrued will apply in the savings clauses.

So, nobody will be taking a step backwards.

They would at the very best be taking a step upwards.

But we cannot derogate from what has been given to them.
What will happen is that we will look at this a little bit further because that is where the prescriptive aspects come about in the establishment of terms and conditions, et cetera.

We will not be taking anything away from anyone.

I hope I have given some clarity to that.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Thank you very much, member Al-Rawi.

Mr. Hochoy Charles please.

Mr. Charles: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much.

Madam Chairman: You are welcome.


Mr. Charles: Maybe I was operating under some misapprehension.

I received this notification yesterday.

In fact, I did not see it until today because I was in my garden yesterday.
And it says that the Bills which you sent to us last night, these Bills were completed by the Parliamentary Counsel yesterday and in the second paragraph of the invitation it says that you would have had extensive consultation on these matters, and you would have even engaged extensive deliberations with Queen’s Counsel.

And I thought what you were going to be doing today is to come and let us hear from all the information, all the submissions that you received, what you would have come up with.
And, of course, this is a serious issue; this is a life and death issue for Tobago that you would have done this presentation the way you did it today, and that Tobago would now have a chance to examine these Senior Counsels, so not QCs because we have none here, and that the Committee may be I believe you have a deadline which UNREVISED 61 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 is Monday— [Technical difficulties] Are you hearing me?

Madam Chairman: Yes.

Yes.


Mr. Charles: What I am saying is I thought you were going to do the presentation today because you would have consulted with so many people in— [Technical difficulties] —unfair to us.
So, this is my recommendation that you should go and make your report if that is what you have to do as a joint select committee, and give us sufficient time, Tobago that is, because the matter concerns us more than anybody else and give us sufficient time for us to look at this and do the deliberation and then we can settle this particular issue.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Thank you very much, Mr. Charles.

Mr. Dennis.


Mr. de Freitas: Madam Chair, I think Mr. Augustine just messaged, he is trying to raise his hand.

If Mr. Dennis is at— Mr. Dennis: Go ahead with Mr. Augustine.

Since I spoke before I could come back later.

Madam Chairman: Okay, Mr. Augustine.

Mr. Augustine: [Inaudible] Mr. de Freitas: Your mike is muted.

Madam Chairman: The mike is—yeah.

Mr. Augustine: Apologies.


I have been trying to locate the raise hand emoji but for some reason what I am seeing is the clap hand emoji, so I have been using the clap hand emoji as the raise hand.

So, apologies there.

Well, Mr. Charles raised some issues.

I would like to now request as I have you all, please the schedule timeline the JSC is working with.
Mr. Charles mentioned Monday, I have not sufficiently reviewed there so perhaps if we can be clear on what the timeline is because from our perspective after receiving this modified Bill, it was UNREVISED 62 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 close to 8.00 p.m. last night, we were already decided that we would find some reading time over this weekend to do what we did the first time around, and reach out to Tobagonians far and wide and generate some discussions on these new modifications.

After the last Bill that was presented, we did have conversations in excess of 200 people, and I am certain that might be more than how much we previously had in the same period.

So, we would want to do the same.


The second thing is, formerly, while some efforts were made to address our issues that we highlighted in the written submissions sent, we did a pretty detailed and long written submission I am still having difficulty with some areas.

And that heightens our need to even spend some more time where we want compromise and certainly cannot compromise; what we are willing to give versus what we are willing to take.
But for example, the whole matter of exclusive administrative jurisdictions versus law-making jurisdiction, that is a serious matter for us to mull over.

And I do not think less than 24 hours is sufficient for us.

To give us 11 miles for example or with the administrative division it must be noted that— [Inaudible] —and that is why we have two Schedules, now Schedules 1 and 2.

So, we will want to write to you again.


I will also wish to highlight that after receiving the— [Technical difficulties] Madam Chairman:—Augustine that Mr. Kangal’s advice was really not—I do not want to say that that advice was not accepted, but it was really a political comment.

Because the advice that we received was from Queen’s Counsel, was from Ambassadors, and other persons of a certain standing.
In addition to that let me allay your fears, Assemblyman Augustine, after this UNREVISED 63 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 report is laid you can make comments, you can still make comments and we are not stopping that.

Between now and the laying of the report, given that you have the Bills you can make further comments, because we are still at first reading stage.
But to do as a matter of decency was to let you know where we were as it related to the Bills, and we will move on from here.

So, if you want to submit further comments you can do that.

A number of the comments that we received from you we have looked at them.

Some of them we have been able to take on board.

In fact, I recall that you were very strong in your desire to ensure that the 11 miles was what was taken on board by this Committee.

And this Committee has done that.


So, if there are other comments feel free to bring them to the attention of the Committee.

But our intention today was to make sure that as we began with talking to the political parties, it was the political parties who sent the Bill to us, we are at the point now where we are again ending with the political parties.

And that was the intention.

If after today you have more comments that you would like to make, feel free to do that.
As I said, Mr. Kangal’s comments were not of the level that we thought were necessary, and we did get comments from Queen’s Counsel and from other legal luminaries.

If you have anything you would like to say, I would be happy to hear it.

Mr. Augustine: Would the JSC be willing to make available to us the advice that you would have received from Queen’s Counsel whoever that Queen’s Counsel is?

Madam Chairman: That is not within our remit.


That is not within our remit to do that, but we will receive from you if you have other comments that you would like to make, but we are moving forward with this process.

Mr. Augustine: And how are we to be certain that the advice of the Queen’s Counsel and other luminary minds where properly taken into account?

Because I can recall UNREVISED 64 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 after the— 2021/06/04 Madam Chairman: You would have to take the word of the Joint Select Committee that we did the work that the Parliament asked us to do.

Mr. Augustine: Well, given the— Madam Chairman: Do you have any other comments?

You would recall that what Mr. Kangal did was a political response to Ambassador Thompson’s advice.

You would recall that, I am sure.

But if you have any further comments, we would be happy to hear them.
Mr. Augustine: And you will also recall the last time we had this discussion, the Attorney General was very adamant and the advice he would have earned from Ambassador Thompson did not allow any sort of mileage to be given until of course, that advice was leaked.

And when it was leaked, he recognized that that was not totally true and given— Madam Chairman: Mr. Augustine, what you are saying is not accurate.

If you have another—do you have another comment that you would like to make?
Because what you are saying is not accurate.

Mr. Augustine: What I am saying is actually accurate and I am also going to say to you, Madam Chair, that it is unreasonable to send a Bill at 8.07 p.m. one night— [Inaudible] —and have it delivered on Monday morning, which is what, a few days away.

And that timeline is not sitting well with me and there is a discussion in the Tobago space which we will have.

I cannot speak to the other parties, which we will have.
We certainly will make our detail completely over.

We also make our disquiet about the Bill, one and two, and the disparities in the administrative versus the legislative— [Inaudible] So we will have that engaging public debate that we wish that we would not UNREVISED 65 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 have to do so quite publicly.

But on behalf of our team, we want to say to you that we think the timeline being proposed in many ways disrespects Tobagonians.
5.45 p.m. Madam Chairman: Okay, I am sorry that you feel that way but I thought—we as a Committee thought that it was very highly respectful for us to invite the representatives of the people of Tobago to this Meeting and we felt that this was one of the most respectful things that we could do as a joint select committee because this did not necessarily have to happen.

And as I said before, you are free to give your comments which we encourage and we look forward to receiving them.
And we anticipate— Mr. Indarsingh: Ma’am, Madam Chair, could I ask— Madam Chairman: I am not finished speaking Mr. Indarsingh, and as soon as I am finished speaking, I would ask member Assemblyman Dennis, who is one of our guests, and then I do not see any other members except for yourself and member Al-Rawi.
Mr. Indarsingh: But I will get the opportunity to interact with our— Madam Chairman: Sorry, after I am finished speaking, I will ask Assemblyman Dennis, and as I am saying Assemblyman Augustine, you are very free to continue to give your comments which we look forward to receiving.

Assemblyman Dennis.

Mr. Dennis: Right, I also want to get some clarity on the whole issue of elections.

I think it is 141Q of the Constitution (Amdt.)


Bill, spoke to an election being the second Monday after the dissolution of the House which is on the fourth year of the anniversary after the election.

There is another clause, I think the clause having to do with no confidence motions, which gives a Chief Secretary the option to dissolve the House.

I think he has seven days to resign and the other option is to dissolve the UNREVISED 66 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 House.

So I am a bit confused because it suggests to me that 141Q does not have any provision for an election to be called outside of that arrangement, but yet still another clause in that specific Bill allows for the Chief Secretary to dissolve the House.

So I think that needs a bit of explanation and maybe some tidying up.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, we would look at it.

Member Indarsingh.
Member Indarsingh.

Mr. Indarsingh: Yes, Madam Chair, could I be afforded the opportunity to ask our guests some questions or clarification?

Madam Chairman: Well, I do not know if they came here for that purpose but let us hear what your first question is please.

[Crosstalk] Mr. Indarsingh: Ma’am, you cannot tell me that you do not know if they came here for that purpose.

This is a joint select committee that is in progress.
Persons are before—stakeholders are before this Committee and I think I reserve the right as a member to seek some clarification or some— Madam Chairman: Member Indarsingh, you do not have “no” need to get hot under the collar.

I said that I do not know if they came here for that purpose but you can ask your first question.

I said that.

No need [Interruption] to get hot under the collar.

Go right ahead [Interruption] and ask your question.
Mr. Indarsingh: You as the Chairperson are having your full say and my mike is being muted when I—I am in a democracy.

I may disagree with you, you may disagree with me.

Madam Chairman: Member Indarsingh, can you please ask your first question?

Mr. Indarsingh: Firstly, I want to ask Assemblyman Augustine, could you clarify for me, Assemblyman, what was the date of the advice you got from Mr. Kangal and is it an updated advice that you were referring to?

UNREVISED 67 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Mr. Augustine: Sorry.

I received the advice from Mr. Kangal on May 23rd.

Mr. Indarsingh: May 23rd?

Mr. Augustine: Yes.

Mr. Indarsingh: Okay, and you are very clear that given the time frame that you got the Bill, it does not give you that appropriate time to really dissect and make a meaningful input in terms of what you have before this Committee before?

Mr. Augustine: Well not just me.


I speak on behalf of the people I represent, the team of six, the half of Tobago that voted for me.

We received a copy by our email— a modified copy at 8.06 p.m. last night, Thursday night, we met with you all starting with this Meeting sometime after 3.00 p.m. today and I am understanding now that this Bill is going before the Parliament on Monday.
Evidently, within that time frame between Thursday night at 8.06 p.m. and Monday when it goes to the Parliament, sufficient Tobagonians would not have seen the modified Bill.

I have—I stayed up most of the night reading through it and pulling out areas that I need to write in detail my objection to.
There are areas that I do applaud some shifts because I did indicate that I have seen some shifts based on the submissions I would have made previously, but there are still some issues that require some ironing out.

And I do not feel comfortable endorsing the timeline, the process is being stymied, so I am not talking about— When I say I have challenges, I am not talking about the fact that the JSC is talking to us or that the JSC is coming back to us with what it has written.
I think this Meeting really should be one where you the JSC explain to us the thinking behind the modifications you have made to us who would then return to the people we represent and have that discussion and then to me that is the most logical step forward but that does not seem to be able to fit within the timeline that the JSC has.

Notwithstanding, I gave the assurance, timeline or no timeline, that the public UNREVISED 68 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 will be engaged by us and the JSC and the National Parliament although, we do not have any power or any say or any members in the National Parliament, will most certainly hear our voice on this issue.

I cannot speak for the other parties represented here today.
I cannot speak for the PNM, I cannot speak for One Tobago Voice being led by Mr. Hochoy Charles, but I can speak for my party, which is the other half of the THA, that we require some more time to engage our people on these latest modifications.
Mr. Indarsingh: Could I ask you one final question from the point of view of clarification because I heard that you engaged Mr. Kangal, and just for the record or the benefit of members of this Committee, do you have the educational or work experience of Mr. Kangal and why you engaged him?
Because I heard that Mr. Kangal’s expertise did not live up to the expertise of Ambassadors and Queen’s Counsel and so on and to me that was very demeaning as it relates to a person who would have served Trinidad and Tobago as a citizen.

Mr. Augustine: All right.

Well, I can tell you—it may very well be that what Mr. Kangal eventually got on to me he did submit himself to the Committee.
But I can tell you Mr. Kangal is a former law of the sea officer, he is a former maritime boundary delimitation expert, and publicist.

He has a lot of published work on the matter of maritime boundaries.

He also was attached to and served in the Ministry of Foreign and Caricom Affairs and our overseas Missions between 1978 and 2000; during that period.

So, I do not know, maybe that qualification does not live up to it.
I also find it suspicious that we are being told we—the JSC received QC advice and received advice from other legal luminaries and we cannot at least get who are or who were the QCs and the legal luminaries that advised, much more the actual legal advice.

I do not understand what is so precarious in making available to UNREVISED 69 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 the public the advice that I am sure taxpayers have paid for.
Madam Chairman: Mr. Augustine, when the JSC reports to the Parliament and, therefore, to the people of Trinidad and Tobago, all of that information would be made available.

Mr. Indarsingh, you have any other questions?

Mr. Indarsingh: No, Madam Chair, just— Madam Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Indarsingh:—not for Mr. Augustine Farley, but is Mr. Hochoy Charles still with us?

Madam Chairman: Yes, he is here.

Mr. Indarsingh: Mr. Charles, a pleasant good evening to you Sir.

Mr. Charles?
Mr. Charles?

Mr. Charles: Yes, good evening.

Good evening, Sir.

Mr. Indarsingh: Good evening.

I just wanted to clarify, could you indicate this particular issue again, it was sent to you last night, you only saw it today because you were in your garden and you interpret it to be a life and death situation for Tobago.

Mr. Charles: Quite correct.


Mr. Indarsingh: And you are asking this Committee to consider that the work of it, we go back to the Parliament to seek an extension for the life of the Committee and you think that two to three weeks will give you an adequate time frame to make a meaningful contribution based on the two Bills that have been submitted to you as a stakeholder?

Mr. Charles: Yeah, and I speak for Tobago, One Tobago Voice, not only for myself.
I speak for Tobago and I said month end, that is, the end of June and the minimum time will be two weeks.

So get me clear, I am saying that one month, which is the end of this month will be okay but we can do it, I am sure, not earlier than two weeks.

UNREVISED 70 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Mr. Indarsingh: Thank you very much.

2021/06/04 Madam Chairman: Mr. Indarsingh, you have any more questions you would like to ask?
Mr. Indarsingh: No, thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: Good.

AG, you had your hand up?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, Madam Chair, thank you very much.

Madam Chair, I would like to address the issue which has been put onto the record by Mr. Augustine.

Mr. Augustine made a statement saying that when I gave a submission to the Committee the last time I was on with Mr. Augustine, as I understood in his statement to be, if I got it wrong he is free to correct me.
He said that I misled the Committee and that Ambassador Thompson’s advice on it was “leaked” to him proved that.

Madam Chair, for the record I was privy to Mr. Augustine’s press conference where he read excerpts of Ambassador Thompson’s advice and for the record, I do not accept a word of what Mr. Augustine said in relation to my intention or my advice that I have given to the Committee.
I am not saying that we do not disagree because this is a democracy and Mr. Augustine is free to disagree with perspectives and I make no complaint about that.

In relation to the maritime boundary, permit me to say this.

Madam Chair, I had alluded to it when I was presenting Bill No.

1, Member de Freitas dealt with it in Bill No.

2.

So, permit me to say from my part in my role as Attorney General of Trinidad and Tobago that No.
1, I am absolutely clear that the position of defining the waters of Tobago versus the waters of Trinidad from an archipelagic state, unitary state perspective, is not something that the international law experts, or I as Attorney General, because that will erode our economic exclusive zones, our exclusive economic zone.

It would diminish our take at the borders where we are UNREVISED 71 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 International Law of the Sea claim, as it relates to our borders to Barbados, Grenada, Surinam, Guyana, Venezuela, et cetera.

It will diminish the ratio of water to land distribution.
I would also like to say that not only does the International Law of the Sea Convention and the customary international law regime that administrative management is to be totally distinguished from constitutional declaration of waters and that the administrative management as we factor it is something that I support.
I support it in relation to all of the reasons for unitary state, archipelagic state, the non- diminishing of exclusive economic zone, and the fact that memorandum of understanding can operate within the administrative zone.
So, Madam Chair, I want to make it abundantly clear that from my perspective as Attorney General looking at Trinidad and Tobago’s preservation of its economic rights and its exclusive economic zones that I cannot advise in any form or fashion a description of the type that I heard Mr. Augustine volunteer on the last occasion where there was the limitations of the type that was described.

That would be to derogate the rights of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
We would lose acreage in the sea and it would suffer the people in this country to accept that point of view.

In relation to the expert advice that we have received, and also in relation to my work that is ongoing from the AG’s Office to the Shipping Bill in particular, I cannot support that point of view.

So, Madam Chair, I just wanted to make it abundantly clear that the administrative provisions which we recommend in the legislation is one that I can support.
I can support the 11 nautical mile arrangement administratively and I cannot accept the advice I heard on the last occasion that we ought to give up effectively our exclusive economic zones.

Madam Chair, you have already clarified one further important point, the rules UNREVISED 72 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 of the Standing Orders of Committees mandates that we publish every scrap of information that we have deliberated upon, so there is no detriment to the people of Trinidad and Tobago and I do not accept the statement that the tax payers in this country have paid for something that people will not see.

That is just not on and not correct.


Every bit of information that we have will be laid in the report in fulsome terms, and I would also like to remind our honourable members and our esteemed guests, that when a joint select committee does a Bill, that is not the end of the story.

It is the start of the story.

It involves a determination in the Parliament where every person who was not a member of this Committee, including all of the Independent Senators who did not sit—I want to remind you.
The two-thirds majority to pass this Bill in the Senate involves much more than the 15 PNM Senators, much more than the six UNC Opposition Senators, and it includes individuals on the Independent Bench who have not been privy to this Committee and therefore, it is important to remember that a Bill, when it is at first reading, has to go through second reading and third reading and it has to bear a debate in both Houses of the Parliament.
For us to accept what was said today by Mr. Augustine, that somehow this is a foregone conclusion and when this Committee’s work is done that is the end of the story that is the furthest thing from the way a Parliament operates to pass law.
So I felt compelled to remind we are giving of three-quarters majority and a two-thirds majority and that when a Bill is laid in Parliament there is massive room for amendment because then you get all 41 members of the House speaking and all 30, if not, 31 members of the Senate speaking including stakeholders who inevitably put their submissions into writing for the benefit of the Parliament.
Madam Chair, in my 11 years in Parliament I have seen a Bill arrive at first reading and then go through many stages sometimes over months of debate where UNREVISED 73 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 significant amendments are made.

When the report of this Committee is published and all is laid there, it is best then that the country sees all of what happened and there is much room still depending upon legislative process.
Mr. Augustine is free to disagree, to receive more leaked reports if that is what he wants, but I would not accept somebody twisting what I said or worst yet, reading part of a report to try and demonstrate something else.

Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Okay, thank you very much member Al-Rawi, and let me say that I have been in the Parliament since 1992 and have had this process—gone through this process on several occasions.
And let me say that the communication that the members—our guests—got never implied that they had to give all their replies or a response today.

Let me also indicate that this is first reading stage.

Any citizen and particularly any citizen who lives in Tobago, or who considers him or herself a Tobagonian, can still share their views with the Committee when the process moves to second reading stage.
And let me also say that there is another process, and I want to reiterate what the Attorney General said, that the Bill also goes to committee stage when all 41 members of the House of Representatives and all the members of the Senate will have to talk about the merits and demerits of the Bill and that is also another process for persons who are outside of the Parliament to give comments if they so choose.
And let me also indicate that you are free to continue to give your comments and proposals for further amendments if you so wish.

But the importance of today’s Meeting was so that we could share with you where our consultations with you have reached.

But there is a process and we will follow the process, thank you very much.

I notice that the political leader of—I notice Nickocy Phillips’ hand is up so please participate as you have asked, go right ahead.
Then I see Assemblyman— UNREVISED 74 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Ms. Phillips: Thank you— [Inaudible] 2021/06/04 Madam Chairman:—just let me list the persons whom I see, Assemblyman Celestine, Assemblyman Pollard, and then member Indarsingh and member Rambally.

So can I have Nickocy Phillips I think political leader of Unity of the People.

Ms. Phillips: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.


I just want to congratulate the JSC so far on making such the recommendations that we were given, to be put in the Bill present that we are discussing right now, congratulations on that so far.

Two things that I wanted to find out.

In regard to the finance section, I remember we had asked for a formula.
Is it that the formula for the finance in regard to the 6.8 per cent, is it that the Finance Secretary is the one who is supposed to do that formula or is that formula going to be injected in the getting or the accepting of the 6.8 per cent?

I do not think I have seen anything in regard to that.
Again, I also wanted to make recommendations to—well when I got the message last night—8.20—but is only today I received the email because we went to— [Inaudible] So when I got it I forwarded it to the Executive for them to discuss it so I do not really have too much submissions.
But so far what I would have—the submissions that I would have made or presented on the first time I have seen some of the changes in the Bill, so, whatever other suggestions or recommendations we get based on what is presented to us from my executive, I would forward it to the Committee.

And I think you know, yes it is something that came to us very short.
One question, Madam Chair, is it that this has to go to Parliament on Monday or can it be cancelled and giving us a further week or two to get some other clarification on some of the parts of the Bill to present to the JSC?

Madam Chairman: I will repeat.

I do not know where— [Inaudible] —the UNREVISED 75 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 statement that it is going to Parliament on Monday, I do not know where that came from.
The next sitting of the Parliament—[Interruption] Ms. Phillips: No, it is all right.

Madam Chairman:—would be, we were supposed to deliver a report— Ms. Phillips: Right.

Madam Chairman:—by the 31st of May.

Ms. Phillips: Okay.

Madam Chairman: So we will work within that time frame— Ms. Phillips: Okay.

Madam Chairman:—by the 31st of May and our Committee must give a report.
Ms. Phillips: Okay, well all I would like to say is that based on the findings that we have, the Executive, after I meet with them over the weekend, I will make such recommendations to the Joint Select Committee in a letter and that is all I have so far to add to the discussion and thank you all again, the Joint Select Committee, for doing a commendable work so far.

Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, Nickocy Phillips, thank you.

Yes, I saw Assemblyman Celestine.

Assemblyman Celestine?


Mrs. Davison-Celestine: Thank you, thank you, Madam Chair, for recognizing me, I just want to make a few points though and I think one of it was, a question rather was—that was answered because I did not hear clearly the time frame that the Joint Select Committee is working with, but I think you would have established that in your previous expressions.
I, like the other political leader of the other party, would want to extend congratulations to you and the Joint Select Committee for all the work that you have done to date.

I think what is before us represents a very progressive step and when I UNREVISED 76 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 look at the document as presented to us today, I think it takes into consideration most of the fundamental challenges that we would have aired sometime before and in closing I just want to make an appeal to those members or the representatives of the respective political parties at this point in time that Tobago has been involved in this process for quite a long time now and I am of the firm view and opinion that this is the only—the time is now for us to have these Bills debated on in Parliament and be approved and so, I am just calling for us to exercise a very reasoned approach and reasoned judgment in terms of what we are prepared to accept and what we are not prepared to accept and even in establishing the timelines within which we will give support to the Joint Select Committee to lay these Bills in Parliament for debate.
Because the point is we have been engaged in this for quite some time; it is a progressive step.

It would not be a perfect arrangement.

As one of the members indicated, we are willing to accept compromise, some compromises is in this particular arrangement, but I believe, I am of the firm opinion that the time is now for us to have these Bills approved so that we can, once and for all, get the kind of self-determination and autonomy that we need here in Tobago.
Madam Chairman: Thank you very much, member Assemblyman Celestine, thank you very much.

I see Assemblyman Pollard.

Please, you have the floor.

Mr. Pollard: Good afternoon, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: Good afternoon.


Mr. Pollard: I am supporting my colleague Mr. Farley Chavez Augustine because the exact words verbatim of the Attorney General was that our six mile exclusive economic zone is— [Technical difficulties] Madam Chairman: Sorry, I am not—[Interruption] Mr. Pollard:—is wrong in law— UNREVISED 77 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Madam Chairman: I am not hearing you.

Could you repeat please, I am not hearing you.


Mr. Pollard: I am saying I am supporting my colleague Assemblyman Farley Chavez Augustine, because the verbatim words of the Attorney General, in our last Meeting, was that our six-mile exclusive economic zone is unworkable or wrong in law and that we were operating under this guise from 1996.
So I want to know if Mr. Robinson, who is a legal luminary, a graduate of Oxford University, guided this island and his people wrong by having us have six mile exclusive economic zone.

And I am hearing my colleagues speak of Tobagonians speaking of 6.8 per cent of budgetary allocation.
Now in the 1996 Bill we had— [Inaudible] —thousand and one DRC of 4.3 to a high of 6.9 and history has shown that we have never gotten higher than 4.4— [Technical difficulties] —but that is— [Inaudible] —of $65 billion dollars could be the same equivalent of— [Inaudible] —because we know we have been having reducing budgetary allocation over the last couple years.
So 6.8 per cent of a reducing budgetary allocation nationally would not suffice Tobago to really develop Tobago as I would see it, because the last budget was 49.573 per cent.

If you take 6.8 per cent of that, that would not have no marked improvement on the development of Tobago.

We already have a lopsided development where 75 per cent of our population is employed by the Government.

There is no thriving private sector to balance the economy.
So having 6.8 per cent of a reducing budgetary allocation, and we could foresee this happening for the years to come, that the budgetary allocation would never increase to 60-something billion again, that would not put Tobago in any better position that we are in now developmentally.

And that is my contribution.

Thank you.

6.15 p.m. UNREVISED 78 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)


(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 [Technical difficulties] 2021/06/04 Dr. Yisrael:—Disputes Resolution Committee is weighed equitably.

This, we could also look at this being weighed equitably in terms of representation from Cabinet versus representation from the Tobago House of Assembly.

Madam Chairman: I understand what you are saying now.

Dr. Yisrael: That is my point.

Madam Chairman: I get you.

Dr. Yisrael: Yes.


My second point is, I know that it has been said several times, but maybe I missed it, but I am not clear on what the current timelines of the JSC are, because we have a situation where the original deadline should have been the 31st of May which is, you know, several days gone.

That means the JSC now has to have a new timeline.

So, please— Madam Chairman: Let me just indicate, it is not a new timeline.
There has been no sitting of the Parliament on the 31st of May.

As a consequence of that, the JSC has to report on the date closest to the 31st of May when the Parliament next sits.

So the report will come when the Parliament next sits.

In the meantime, as I have said before, we are very willing to continue to receive your comments that you may have.

Please feel free to continue to send in your comments, but we do have that 31st of May deadline.
And, as I have said, the report will be submitted on the next closest date to that date when the Parliament, meaning the House of Representatives and then the Senate sits.

But, please, feel free to continue to send in any comments that you have.

Dr. Yisrael: And my question still remains— Madam Chairman: Yes.

Dr. Yisrael: In terms of, when is that supposed to be?

When do we expect the UNREVISED 79 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Parliament to have its next sitting?

And allow me one more specific question.

Madam Chairman: Sure.

Dr. Yisrael: The Attorney General spoke specifically about the fact that all of the documents that the JSC had access to, will be made available on the final report when that is made.

May I ask, is there a timeline for when that final report would be made?

And may I also just throw in really quickly— Madam Chairman: Go ahead.
Dr. Yisrael:—that if that is, in fact, the case, that all of this information including the Queen’s Counsel and whoever else’s advice will be made public, I am wondering why would we need to wait until that final report is laid, considering that that may actually allay much of the fears or the concerns or the angsts that Tobagonians have, if it is provided sooner rather than later, given that he did say, it will be made public eventually.

Madam Chairman: Okay.


The thing is that according to the Standing Orders, the work of the Joint Select Committee is—what is the right word to use?

The work of the Joint Select Committee is— Mr. Al-Rawi: It is embargoed.

Madam Chairman:—private.

It is not open to the public, the work of the Joint Select Committee.

So that is why, today when there was this concern that somebody may have been giving the information out with regard to what we were doing today.

That is why I was so concerned about that.


Okay?

Dr. Yisrael: I understand.

Madam Chairman: But we have invited—so that sometimes there are public meetings of the Committee and, on those occasions, you invite the public and you can have, everybody could listen to the work of the Committee.

Until that is done or UNREVISED 80 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 unless that is done, then the work of the Committee is normally in camera.
But when we present the report of the Committee, then all the documents or advice or information or suggestions that were made by the members of the public will become public information.

So when the report is laid, there would be several appendices which will form part of the report, which will be all the documents that we referred to or the advice that we got or comments that were made and so on.
Dr. Yisrael: So, please allow me or explain if we then need to wait for another public meeting, because it was at the last public consultation that the Attorney General highlighted the fact that he had gotten advice from Thompson, I think, if I am mistaken.

The actual advice was not presented, but the fact that who he got the advice from, that was made public.
Can we also— Madam Chairman: Yeah, but can I just indicate, if I am not mistaken, when the advice came, when your comments came from the PDP, you did refer to Mr. Thompson’s advice.

So that advice was not embargoed or secret.

Dr. Yisrael: I need you to listen to my specific question.

Madam Chairman: Go ahead, let me hear what is your specific question.

Dr. Yisrael: Yes.
Dr. Yisrael: Yes.

The actual advice that was received by the PDP, I understand that there are issues about physically getting that advice, because it should not have been a public document.

My point is, at the public consultation the week or so before, the Attorney General had told us that he got advice from a specific person.

That knowledge was public.

The advice was not public, but who he got the advice from was made public.
If I understand my colleague, Assemblyman Farley Augustine, correctly, he is also asking, given that that advice, that the identity of the individual who gave that advice was made public, even if you do not provide the advice specifically that was given by the Queen’s Counsel or Senior Counsel of whoever it UNREVISED 81 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 is, can you provide the information about who those individuals are, even if we do not have the actual advice that was given, given that the Attorney General did that previously?

You are muted, so I am not hearing you.

Madam Chairman: Let me indicate that the advice that the Attorney General referred to, which was the advice from His Excellency Gerald Thompson, was not specific advice to this Committee.

That was advice given to the THA at a point in time.
So that advice was not the Committee’s advice.

It was public information.

Okay?

Dr. Yisrael: So can I ensure that we answer the first question which was— Madam Chairman: Which is?

Dr. Yisrael: The timeline that the JSC is now working with.

Madam Chairman: I just said that the JSC’s last mandate from the Parliament was that a report is to be delivered by the 31st of May.
I will repeat that the 31st of May has passed, but what happens is, once there is no sitting by the 31st, then the next sitting of the Parliament, closest to the 31st, then the JSC will report.

Dr. Yisrael: And is there a sitting of the Parliament scheduled?

Madam Chairman: Yes.

Dr. Yisrael: And when is that scheduled?

Madam Chairman: The next sitting of the Parliament is the 9th of June.

The next sitting of the House of Representatives is the 9th of June.
Dr. Yisrael: So then, may I ask what is scheduled to happen on Monday?

Madam Chairman: I do not know where you all got this thing about the report being delivered by Monday.

I heard this here.

I did not hear this anywhere else.

Dr. Yisrael: Okay.

And that is just what I wanted to clarify, because I did not hear it anywhere else other than here, so I just wanted to— UNREVISED 82 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Madam Chairman: I did not hear it anywhere else myself.

Dr. Yisrael: Okay.

Thank you.

Madam Chairman: You are very welcome.

May I have member Al-Rawi, please?

Member Al-Rawi?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman:—you wanted to participate?

Mr. Al-Rawi: Yes, please.

Again, and this is only for the purposes of the record to please dissociate myself from the comments made about an attempt to say verbatim what I said.
Thank you, Madam Chair, for clarifying.

When I spoke to Ambassador Thompson and read some aspects of his advice, it was advice that was given to the Office of the Attorney General.

It was not advice which was given to the Joint Select Committee.

That is point number one.

Number two, Madam Chair, again I stand by the statements that I cannot agree with the submission that six nautical miles from an exclusive economic zone perspective, in defining the waters of Tobago can be done.
It is dangerous for people to keep quoting things out of context.

When I said on the last occasion that I cannot advise as to the workability of six nautical miles, it was in the specific context of defining it as the waters of Tobago as opposed to anything else.

And I referenced what Ambassador Thompson had to say, that he says in his written advice that it was debatable that the section 4 of the THA Act which has six nautical miles, he said that it was unworkable, and I read that aspect out.
So I would just urge members to understand that things are said in context.

And while somebody can correctly quote a line, a line out of context is dangerous.

And I must, of course, mark that for the record, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, I would just like to end by saying the reason that the Standing Orders provide for in camera UNREVISED 83 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 proceedings and for publications to not be made prematurely until the work of the committee is reported to the Parliament, is simply because the privileges that are associated and the right of freedom of speech associated inside of these committees is, in part, entrenched and we therefore have to await for the laying of the report.

Once reports are laid, we could speak openly and say and do anything in relation to it.
So, Madam Chair, what I would just urge is that I am particularly interested in having a report laid, not anything other than in keeping with the obligation that we have to report by the 31st.

How the rules of the Parliament work is, if it is not a sitting day by the date by which you are to report, the next day when you are able to lay the report is the date that would suffice.

So I am eager to have a report so that everybody can speak freely in this matter, Madam Chair.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Madam Chairman: Thank you, AG.

Member Rambally, please.

Member Rambally, you have your hand up.

Mr. Rambally: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, let me just apologize to our guests.

I did have my camera on earlier, but because the battery power in my device is a bit down now, I have to switch it in a corner to plug it to the adaptor.

So my apologies to them that they are not seeing me at this time.
Madam Chair, let me express that, you know, myself personally, I do have a lot of, you know, respect and admiration for all of these members who have come here today, but I would ask the others to forgive me.

I just have a couple questions for Mr. Hochoy Charles and it is really arising—I would try to make it as brief as possible and, in so doing, I would try to lump them together.
But, Mr. Charles, on the last occasion—I say last occasion, but on the occasion when you addressed us virtually on the 30th of April, I believe, there are some areas which I did take a note UNREVISED 84 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 of—and I am referring to my notes now—you did make mention of the fact that, in your mind, the question for Tobagonians was whether the arrangements with respect to self-governance for Tobago were sufficiently addressed.
I think that was like umbrella notes you had made in your submission.

So whether what you deem to be important for Tobagonians to feel that there was self-governance was sufficient self- governance for Tobago, whether it was addressed in the Bill or draft Bill as the case may be?

That is number one.
That is number one.

You also referred to the fact—and, I know, I am not asking for a debate on this now, but I am just pointing out another point was that you were still talking about the federal system, whereas the Committee had made mention of unicameral versus bicameral system as opposed to federal.

So that was a second point.


Of course, the financial arrangements for Tobago was something that we touched on, but I do not think we went into it in detail and the— Madam Chairman: Sorry, member Rambally, just one second please.

Member de Freitas, I just have to be excused for a minute.

Can you take the Chair please?

Mr. de Freitas: Sure, Madam Chair.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Go ahead, member Rambally.


[MR. NIGEL DE FREITAS in the Chair] Mr. Al-Rawi: Apologies, I too need to step aside for a moment.

So please if there are any questions to me, Mr. Interim Chair, could you please excuse me for a moment?

Mr. Chairman: Sure, AG.

Mr. Rambally: Thank you to Madam Chair and our interim Chairman.

So, Mr. Charles, I was talking about some of the issues, and I think I had gotten to the point of financial arrangements for Tobago.
The other point that you had raised, and with UNREVISED 85 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 some, you know, depth in your voice, was the removal of Cabinet dominance in terms of arrangements existing between Trinidad and Tobago.

So these were the points that I had taken note of that you were touching on, on the last occasion.
My question out to you today is: Are you in a position to tell us whether or not, you know, you are satisfied, based on what you have received yesterday?

Are you satisfied or are you in a position to say whether you are satisfied on these points that they have been addressed properly by the Committee in the draft that you are now seeing?

That is number one.
That is number one.

And, number two, on the last occasion as well, I have a note where you would have indicated the possibility of submitting something in writing in two weeks.

So, I know you are asking today to put in something but, you know, just to ask whether you think—I think earlier you said two weeks.

Is it realistic on your part that you would be able to address all of these issues with the new Bill in a timely manner, let us say two weeks?

So those are the questions, Mr. Charles.


I am sorry I had to be so long-winded.

Mr. Chairman: Thank you, member Rambally.

Mr. Charles?

Mr. Charles: Yeah, that is more than a mouthful, it is a houseful.
But let me say, since I have been involved in this matter for a long time, let me just quickly say, that is why I have taken the position I took today to say that your Bill, the new Bills that you have submitted, they were received only last night and, in fact, I had only seen them today and gone through them today.

In fact, I had some very strong words to use, but the way the Chairman started this meeting, it caused me not to use those strong words.

There was contempt.
There was contempt.

They were disrespectful and insulting to the people of Tobago to bring out these documents last night and to ask us for us to comment.

And this is why I took the letter, coming from the Clerk of the Parliament UNREVISED 86 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 and so on or the Secretary of the Joint Select Committee, and read it and said, I thought you were going to do your presentation today and give us the opportunity to respond to your new provisions that you would have provided.

And I said, that that will not take us.

At least, we should go for one month to complete them and I am sure no earlier than two weeks, and I can answer my brother who just spoke to say, that two weeks will give us sufficient time.
We have been on this matter for the longest while.

We are at our fingertips that we can respond to them.

Secondly, bicameral against unicameral: I do not know whether he got the message.

We would have, One Tobago Voice, would have submitted on the 16th of May—I do not know whether you all got it.

I thought all of you would have received it by now.

On the 16th of May, we would have submitted a comprehensive document.

I think it had what?


Eight pages, saying what our submissions were and what we expected of the Joint Select Committee with regard to attending to the life and death issue that is self-government for Tobago.

I do not know whether you saw it.

I thought that you all would have seen it today—you would have seen it.

I notice some of the things come in.

I did not want to discuss with you today what you would have just presented today.

We wanted time to deal with that.


You see, that is why I have not dealt with any specific.

I am talking.

I just want to just answer you since you asked the question.

Bicameral as against unicameral.

We submitted to you and say to you, what we would have submitted as the Forum of Political Parties, and we put into our submission now, alternatively, that in order to have a separation of powers in the Assembly or in the Legislature in Tobago, that you could have a unicameral body in Tobago.
But, if you do so, to ensure that we have a separation of powers.

And not like what you have in Trinidad, because you are not running a democracy in Trinidad.

Let me just put it “dey” and leave it.

If you UNREVISED 87 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 want to engage me, you can.

You are not running a democracy in Trinidad at all, because there are no separation of powers there.
We said if you wanted to have separation of powers here in Tobago, what we should have is that the Chief Secretary should be elected by the population of Tobago at the same time when you are electing the other members of the Legislature, and the Chief Secretary now should have the power, similar to like the United States President, to select the secretaries or the members of the Executive Council, coming from the rest of the Tobago population.
So that the elected people of the Tobago House of Assembly will be the lawmakers, and the people who will implement the law will be the Chief Secretary and his Executive Council.

You do not have that in Trinidad.

What you have is a prime-ministerial dictatorship.

And when I say that, I am not saying Dr. Rowley is dictatorship.

That is your Constitution, where the party that wins the majority of seats in the House of Representatives.
The leader of that party, once he wins, he is appointed Prime Minister.

So he is in charge of the Cabinet.

Yes, he also controls the Legislature.

That is an anarchy, and we wanted to get away from that and do not follow your system in Trinidad because it is not a democracy.

We could spend some time discussing this.

And I think since you are proposing a unicameral one, I said fine, it can be done.
But if you are doing that, in order to allow for the separation of powers between those who are passing the law and those who are implementing the law, they must be different.

They must be different so that we can have the check and balance you are talking about and not going with all these kinds of committees that I hear you proposed that you have Trinidad.

It is a total waste of time, but we do not want to deal with that now.

What is the next matter?

Finance.


Mr. Chairman: Mr. Charles, Mr. Charles, so I was just giving you the opportunity UNREVISED 88 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 to answer member Rambally but, obviously, you are reiterating some of the comments you would have sent in to the Committee before as you indicated, and I just want to respond before we get too far because, again, throughout the stages of this meeting this afternoon, we keep hearing the same thing and the Attorney General as well as Madam Chair, have indicated time and time again, because I am hearing it repeated that the Bills were sent out at a particular time, and that was too short.
But, from what I picked up, there seems to be a self-imposed shortness in the sense that individuals thought Monday was a deadline which turns out to not be the case.

The fact is that we have reiterated, and I am going to reiterate it again, is that comments can be sent it.
So even though there is an indication of the 9th of June next week, the fact is comments can continue to come in and today was just meant to one, report back to the political entities based on the comments we received at the consultation in Tobago.

What was done—and it was mainly to be a Q & A session.
It was not to sort of receive written comments or to receive a commentary, again, because we knew that the commentary process continues onward and, for example, a lot of what you are saying now could be sent in in written comments, but was to look at the Bills which were sent out yesterday and as we go through the Bills in the format in which we did, and we pointed out some of the changes that were made— and I think it was member Augustine when he spoke indicated that he saw some of the shifts.
Ms. Phillips also indicated that they saw some of the shifts and that member Augustine went on to indicate that he would take the opportunity to send in his written comments and whatnot in relation to what he believes was not shifted.

And that is really the genesis of what we are doing.

So the question and answer session was to allow individuals, after seeing what was done, after all the comments were taken in; all, all of the comments and some UNREVISED 89 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 of the changes that were made, that you ask questions in relation to that, and that is what we were intending to do, Mr. Charles and for all of the other individuals in the Committee.

It was not really intended to be a situation where comments would be sent in, much like we would do in the public consultation before.
It is really that question and answer, predominantly for the issues that were raised at that public consultation which we treated with by way of putting out these two new Bills.

So that whole thing of Bills going out last night, and that was too short, too short only comes into play if the deadline was today or the deadline was Saturday which there is no deadline.

You can still comment throughout the parliamentary process and that is what is intended to happen.
So, Mr. Charles, we just have to give the opportunity to others who have raised their hands.

I think, Madam Chair, is back, so I would just hand over to her to take over, Madam Chair.

[MRS. CAMILLE ROBINSON-REGIS in the Chair] Mr. Charles: Before you proceed.

anyhow, I did not finish— Madam Chairman: Yes, I am.

Mr. Charles:—answering the question.


And I just want to just mention to Madam Chair that with all due respect to what you have just said, the date of Monday was in the Newsday Tobago of June 02, 2021, page 2, and it says, well, I do not know whether it is tomorrow or what.

It says this at paragraph 2: That the JSC submissions are due to be presented to the Parliament on Monday.

So we got it from the newspapers.

Mr. de Freitas: Understood.

Understood, Mr. Charles.


But, as Madam Chair would rightly tell you, the papers cannot tell you when something is supposed to happen.

Mr. Charles: I know.

UNREVISED 90 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Mr. de Freitas: There are parliamentary procedures that must be followed.

Mr. Charles: I know.

Sir, with all due respect, I thank you very much, but I have been there, you know, so I understand it.
And this is why if you noticed when I commented, I said I am not so sure but it was mentioned somewhere, but I am not sure.

Whether it is Monday, but I have seen it somewhere.

Anyhow, finally.

I am not mentioning, you have come today and what you would have done is to ask us to comment on the Bills that were received yesterday, and that is all we are commenting on saying that you have submitted the Bills to us last night.
Though we can submit comments from now until whenever, and we listen to the Chairman well, but you have submitted them to us today—it could be yesterday, last night—you called a meeting today and you are asking us to comment and that is the issue we are dealing with, and that is the shortness of time.

Not, at the same time, forgetting or remembering that we can comment further on these Bills when they are at various stages in the Parliament.
We are only talking about yesterday to today and that is why we took the position we took and said, okay, fine, we do not want to go and have any comment on it, we are going to deal with it.

Finally, finance.

I am answering my brother.

The question of finance, we did say whether it is 6.9, 8 per cent whatever it was, that is not a problem.

We said that should be a grant element.


And the Deputy Chairman, I just want to talk to him, we submitted these comments you know, in writing, to your joint select committee on the 16th of May.

So you have what I am saying today before you since the 16th of May.
And all I am saying today, we are saying that with respect to the financial issue, that 6.8 per cent, 6.9 per cent, 8 per cent, must be predicable and must be delivered to Tobago as a grant element, a grant element, and then Tobago should have, the Assembly or the Legislature or the island government should have the UNREVISED 91 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 power to deal with a lot of other somethings, loans and grants and all the rest of stuff and so on.
We did say that the 8 per cent or the 6.8 per cent would be just a grant element and that is not all the money that Tobago will rely upon.

6.45 p.m. Madam Chairman: Okay.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for that, Mr. Charles, appreciated.

Mr. Indarsingh, you have—Mr.

Rambally, you were— thank you very much member de Freitas, appreciated.

Member Rambally, you have a further question or that is it?

Mr. Rambally: Yes, please, Madam Chair.

It is very short, though it be two questions.


Mr. Charles had gotten to the point of the financial arrangements.

The last point I had pointed out to him was the Cabinet dominance and he did make reference to submitting something, I believe he said on the 16th of May.

But, you know, I want to be fair to both sides.

If Mr. Charles can tell us the title of his document or the exact date of his document because certainly, I have not seen it.

So those two questions, the document he submitted, one.
And, two, the last point I had raised with him was the Cabinet dominance in terms of the arrangements.

And I want to thank him so that I do not have to trouble you, Madam Chair, again.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

We have not seen your document, Mr. Charles.

If you want you can send it again.

Did you send it via email?

Mr. Charles: Madam Chair, we emailed the document on the 16th, received by you, and I posted out on the next day or the same day, the hard copy.

Madam Chairman: Okay.


Mr. Charles: It cost me $27 to send it by fast mail and you have not seen it?

[Laughter] I recognized that—from the time I saw your draft this morning, I recognized now you “ent” see this document at all.

UNREVISED 92 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 Madam Chairman: All right.

Mr. Charles: So you have it down here— 2021/06/04 Madam Chairman: We will make sure—we will look again.

We will look again and see what may have happened.


Mr. Charles:—and we also sent the hard copy to you, posted it out to you.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Charles: Let me answer quickly, brother Rambally—member Rambally.

Your two questions were, one—could you just remind me just quickly?

Just mention it again.

Mr. Rambally: Sorry.

Member Charles, the last point which I think you did not touch on was that Cabinet dominance.

Mr. Charles: Oh, yes.

Mr. Rambally: The arrangement, yes.

Mr. Charles: Yes.
Mr. Charles: Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

What we are saying is that policy—the law is policy and once the Tobago House of Assembly has lawmaking overdose issues that were in the Fifth Schedule of the Tobago House of Assembly Act, 1996, those matters, plus others that we would have raised, it means then that we would have been able to pass laws on those issues and will be able to implement them.
Once that is so, it means then that the Cabinet in Trinidad and Tobago will not be responsible for those matters in Tobago at all.

And I know, if you look at the 1996 discussion in the Parliament, we recognized that was a real burning issue in those debates.

And that is all we are saying, that the Cabinet of Trinidad and Tobago, you still have your power to do whatever you need to do.
But with respect to these matters in Tobago that the Tobago Legislature will be responsible for passing laws and implement laws on those matters.

Remember, when we make a decision on these matters in Tobago, UNREVISED 93 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 they would not directly affect you in Trinidad because the laws of Tobago, which is the policy that we pass in Tobago, will not be implemented in Trinidad.
Secondly, I want to make this point, you see the kind of problem we have here—quickly—is that you have a political party in Tobago—understand what we are dealing with—that they win all the seats in an election in Tobago.

So you have gone to the election and you contest those elections in Tobago and a party, besides the party that is in Government in Trinidad, wins the elections in Tobago.
So people voted for the programme and policy of that party, yet they make decisions and they cannot implement them and the people in Tobago voted for it, and that is why we are talking about Cabinet must not have that dominance over these life and death issues in Tobago.

And the final issue was what?

Madam Chairman: I think that was it.

Mr. Rambally: Yes.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And thank you so very much, Mr. Charles.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Charles.

Mr. Indarsingh?


Mr. Indarsingh: Yes, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much.

And I must say thanks to my colleague, MP Rambally, for raising some of the very relevant issues with Mr. Charles.

Mr. Charles has a tremendous amount of experience in this journey that started in 1977.

But more importantly, if I could ask, what was the name of the document that Mr. Charles said he incurred a cost of TT $27 to post?
Madam Chairman: Member Indarsingh, let me just ask Mr. Charles something because we are trying to see if—Mr.

Charles, would you be able to tell us what email address you used?

Was it the Parliament’s address or the Joint Select Committee’s email address?

UNREVISED 94 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)

(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 Mr. Charles: I will get it.

The one sent to me by—I will check it in a minute.

Before you close off, I will get it for you.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Right.


Mr. Charles: But we sent it to the email that was given to me by your Ms. Keiba Jacob or something like that.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Charles: That email that she sent, we sent it by that, and then I sent it to the Parliament.

The address was JSC Tobago Self-Government, in care of Keiba Jacob-Mottley, Parliament of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, Parliamentary Complex, St. Vincent Street, Port of Spain, Trinidad.
We posted it to that and I wrote the telephone number, so that in case my $27 package—[Technical difficulties]—if they received it—when they received it, they would have been able to call you and say, “Where do I deliver this?”.

So even your telephone number was put on it.

And the name of the documents my— Mr. Indarsingh: Your experience, Mr. Charles, is surely coming to the fore.

Mr. Charles: The name of my document was, General Comments on the Matters of Self-Government for Tobago.
Madam Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Charles: That was the subject.

Mr. Indarsingh: Okay.

Thank you very much.

And on another issue, Madam Chair, I think that in the information that we are relaying to our guests, we need to be a bit clear with them in the context that whilst the deadline of the Committee expired on the 31st of May, the Committee has the prerogative also to go to the Parliament, present a status report, and if so, extend the work of the Committee.
In addition to that also, with respect to an issue that was raised by the Secretary UNREVISED 95 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 of Finance in the THA, Mr. Jack, in terms of on page 15 of the Tobago Island Government Bill, under 37(2): “The Tobago Executive Council shall delegate its responsibility for the management of an investment account to the Central Bank.” And when we continue to harp upon the issue of framework legislation and indicate that in subsidiary legislation, we will work out the dynamics of operationalizing the issues and we will give Tobago the opportunity to state what they want, I am very concerned that this can lead to further tension.
And really critiques, from a stakeholder’s point of view, telling us that we knew fully well or we give them a particular piece of legislation that created more division rather than created, what we would call, autonomy and self-determination and equality of status, and so on.
And there is another issue that I want to raise in the context of—and I have given it long and hard thought and I am a bit uncomfortable with page 22—on page 22, under the broad heading of, “General Provisions”, that is Part VI, and it focuses with 58(iv)—not 58(iv) but 58(v): “in the definition of ‘specified legislative office’ by adding to the prescribed offices listed in the Schedule, in the appropriate sequence, the following offices…” And I have no problem with the Chief Secretary, Deputy Chief Secretary and the others that are specified, but I am being pained.
And I could be wrong but the Vice-President of the Senate and Member of the Senate, I do not think that it has any relevance in this particular part of this Bill.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Thank you very much, member Indarsingh.

Okay.

I do not see any more hands up, so I think we have entertained all the questions and comments that the members and guests wanted to ask.

I want to take this opportunity UNREVISED 96 JSC Constitution (Amdt.)
(Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 2021/06/04 to thank all of the guests who came today.

Thank you very much for coming.

Thank you for making this part of our work as a joint select committee very interesting.

We appreciate what you have told us.

We appreciate you taking the time to come.

And let me also reiterate that you can continue to send your comments.

You can continue to send your concerns.

We would take them as they come and we look forward to hearing from you.

Please put them in writing.


I do believe Mr. Charles may have given the correct email address, so those of you who did not have that email address, I hope you took Mr. Charles’—what he said and you will continue to send us your comments and concerns.

Thank you very much.

Have a good weekend.

Please stay safe and continue to stay at home because that is how we will continue to fight this virus.

God bless you and thank you very much again.

Member: God bless you, Madam Chair.


Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, Madam Chair.

God bless you all.

Madam Chairman: That you very much.

Member: Take care, Chair.

Member: Bye.

Madam Chairman: Okay.

Member: Have a good evening.

Madam Chairman: Members of the Committee, we will just— Member: Thanks everyone.

Good evening.

Madam Chairman: Thank you.

Members of the Committee, we will just continue to meet but we will allow our guests to leave.

6.56 p.m.: Guests leave the meeting.
UNREVISED APPENDIX XV LIST OF AMENDMENTS 8 June 2021 APPENDIX XV THE CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) (TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT) BILL, 2020 List of Amendments made by the Joint Select Committee appointed to consider and report on the Constitution (Amendment) (Tobago Self-Government) Bill, 2020 First Column Clause Second Column Extent of Amendments 4 Delete the proposed paragraph (ca) and substitute the following: “ (ca) recognise- (i) the right to self-determination of the people of Trinidad and Tobago, including the right of the people of the Island of Tobago to determine in Tobago their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development; and (ii) the equality of status between the people of the Island of Trinidad and the people of the Island of Tobago, enabling them to access a fair share of the resources and opportunities available to all the people of the Nation of Trinidad and Tobago;”.
5 6 Delete.

Delete and substitute the following: “6.
Section 3 of the Constitution is amended – (a) in subsection (1)- (i) in the definition of “public service”, by deleting the words “Tobago House of Assembly established by section 3 of the Tobago House of Assembly Act, in a civil capacity” and substituting the words “Tobago Island Government, in a civil capacity”; and (ii) by inserting in the appropriate alphabetical sequence, the following definitions: “ “House of Assembly” means the House of Assembly of the Tobago Legislature referred to in section 141A; 8 June 2021 “Tobago Act” means a law passed by the Tobago Legislature in relation to Tobago; “Tobago Executive Council” means the Tobago Executive Council established under section 75A (1); “Tobago Island Government” includes the Tobago Executive Council and its Divisions; “Tobago Legislature” means the Tobago Legislature established under section 141A (1)”; and (b) by inserting after subsection (9) the following subsection: “(10) For the purposes of sections 53, 75, 75A and Chapter 11A, a reference to “Tobago” means the Island of Tobago, Little Tobago, St. Giles Island, Marble Island, Goat Island, Sisters Island and the internal and inland waters of Tobago.”.
8 Delete and substitute the following: Section 52 amended 8.
Section 52 of the Constitution is amended- (a) by inserting after subsection (1), the following: “(1A) Any question whether- (a) any person has been validly appointed as a member of the House of Assembly; (b) any member of the House of Assembly has vacated his seat or is required, under section 141L(2), to cease to exercise any of his functions as a member of the House of Assembly; or (c) any person has been validly elected as Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly in accordance with section 141E, shall be determined by the High Court.”; and 8 June 2021 (b) in subsection (2), by inserting after the words “subsection (1)”, the words “and subsection (1A)”.
9 Delete and substitute the following: “9.

Section 53 of the Constitution is amended by renumbering that section as section 53(1) and inserting the following subsections: “(2) Subject to subsections (1) and (3), the Tobago Legislature may make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago with respect to the matters as prescribed.
(3) The power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws shall not extend to- (a) altering the provisions of this Constitution; or (b) any of the matters set out in Chapter 1 of this Constitution.

(4) Where a Tobago Act is inconsistent with an Act passed by Parliament, the Act passed by Parliament shall prevail to the extent of the inconsistency.
(5) Subject to subsection (6), the power of Parliament to make laws having effect in Tobago shall not extend to any of the matters as prescribed under subsection (2).
(6) At any time when it is expressly declared in any Act passed by Parliament that a provision in that Act, being a provision that relates to a matter prescribed under subsection (2) is required to have effect in Tobago- (a) in the interests of external affairs; (b) in the interests of national security; (c) in relation to a state of public emergency; or (d) in relation to a national financial crisis, 8 June 2021 that provision shall accordingly have effect in the island of Tobago, and where there is any inconsistency between that provision and the provision of a Tobago Act, the provisions of the Act passed by Parliament shall prevail to the extent of the inconsistency.
(7) Where there is an inconsistency under subsection (4) or (6), the inconsistency shall, where possible, be construed with such modifications, adaptations, qualifications and exceptions as may be necessary to bring the Tobago Act into conformity with the Act passed by Parliament.”.

10 Delete and substitute the following: “10.

Section 54(3)(b) of the Constitution is amended by inserting after the word “139”, the words “, 141A to 141R”.

New 10A Insert the following new clause: “Section 61 amended 10A.
Section 61 of the Constitution is amended- (a) by repealing subsection (1) and inserting the following subsection: “(1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution- shall, (a) the power of Parliament to make except where laws otherwise authorised by statute, be exercised by Bills passed by the House of Representatives and the Senate and assented to by the President; and (b) the power of the Tobago Legislature to make laws shall, otherwise except authorised be exercised by Bills passed by the House of Assembly and assented to by the President.”; where by statute, 8 June 2021 (b) in subsection (2), by inserting after the words “a Bill”, the words “, including a Bill passed by the House of Assembly,”; (c) in subsection (3), by inserting after the words “A Bill”, the words “, including a Bill passed by the House of Assembly,”; and (d) in subsection (4) by inserting – (i) after the words “of Parliament” the words “or House of Assembly”; and (ii) after the words “that Parliament” the words “or House of Assembly, as the case may be”.
11 Delete and substitute the following: “11.
Section 75 of the Constitution is amended- (a) by repealing subsection (1) and substituting the following subsection: “(1) There shall be a Cabinet for Trinidad and Tobago which shall have– (a) the general direction and control of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and shall be collectively responsible therefor to Parliament; and (b) in relation to Tobago, no responsibility for the matters as prescribed under section 75A(1)(b), unless there is an emergency or unforeseen circumstance requiring the intervention of the Cabinet.”; and (b) by inserting after subsection (2), the following subsections: “(3) In determining whether there is an emergency or unforeseen circumstance requiring its intervention under subsection (1)(b), the Cabinet shall consider the following matters: (a) there is an expressed request or invitation from the Tobago Executive Council; 8 June 2021 (b) where a request under paragraph (a) has not been received within a reasonable period in the circumstances, Cabinet through a Minister shall endeavor to consult with the Tobago Executive Council; or (c) due to the urgency of the circumstances, consultation under paragraph (b) has not been possible and is not practicable.
(4) Where Cabinet has intervened under subsection (1)(b), the Tobago Island Government shall co-operate with the Cabinet in the management of the emergency or unforeseen circumstance.

(5) Subsection (3) shall not apply where a state of public emergency has been declared pursuant to section 8.”.

12 Delete and substitute the following: 12.

The Constitution is amended by inserting after section 75, the following sections: “Sections 75A, 75B 75C and 75D inserted “Tobago Executive Council 75A.
(1) There shall be a Tobago Executive Council which shall have- (a) the general direction and control of the Tobago Island Government and shall be collectively responsible therefor to the Tobago Legislature; and (b) subject to section 75(1)(b), exclusive jurisdiction for the administration within Tobago of the matters as prescribed.

(2) The Tobago Executive Council shall continue to discharge its functions during any period that the Tobago Legislature is dissolved.

Composition of Tobago 75B.


(1) The Tobago Executive Council shall comprise- 8 June 2021 Executive Council (a) the Chief Secretary; (b) the Deputy Chief Secretary; and (c) such number of other Secretaries, selected the Assembly Members from among appointed by in the President, acting accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary.
(2) One of the Secretaries appointed under subsection (1)(c) shall be the Secretary of Legal Affairs who shall be an Attorney-at-law admitted to practise in Trinidad and Tobago.

Secretaries of the Tobago Island Government 75C.

(1) The President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary, may, by directions in writing, assign to a Secretary responsibility for any business of the Tobago Island Government, including the administration of any Division of the Tobago Island Government.
is (2) Where a Secretary incapable of performing his functions by reason of his absence from Trinidad and Tobago or by reason of illness, the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary, may appoint another person to act in the office of such Secretary during such absence or illness.
(3) Where any Secretary has been assigned responsibility for any Division of the Tobago Island Government, he shall exercise general direction and control over that Division and, subject to such direction and control, the Division shall be under the supervision of an Administrator whose office shall be a public office.
(4) For the purposes of this section – (a) two or more Divisions of the Tobago Island Government may be placed supervision of one under Administrator; or the (b) two or more Administrators may supervise any Division of the Tobago Island Government assigned to a Secretary.

8 June 2021 Assistant Secretaries of the Tobago Island Government 75D.

The President shall, on the advice of the Chief Secretary, appoint a Member of the House of Assembly to the office of Assistant Secretary.”.
13 Delete the proposed paragraphs (a) and (b) and substitute the following: “(a) the Cabinet or a Minister acting under the general authority of the Cabinet, in relation to matters under the Government of Trinidad and Tobago; or (b) the Tobago Executive Council or a Secretary acting under the general authority of the Tobago Executive Council, with respect to matters in Tobago as prescribed under section 75A(1),”.

15 16 Delete.
Delete paragraphs (a) and (b) and substitute the following: “(a) in subsection (1), by deleting the words “two nor more than four other members”, and inserting the words “four nor more than six other members, two of whom shall be ordinarily resident in Tobago; and (b) by deleting subsection (2) and substituting the following; “(2)The members of the Public Service Commission- (a) other than the members ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President, after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition; and (b) ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President after consultation with the Chief Secretary and the Minority Leader.”.
17 Delete paragraphs (a) to (h) and substitute the following: “(a) by inserting after subsection (5), the following subsection: “(5A) Before the Public Service Commission makes any appointment in Tobago to the office of Chief Administrator, Administrator, to a head of a department in a Division and to a chief professional advisor in a Division, it shall consult the Chief Secretary.”; and 8 June 2021 (b) by inserting after subsection (6), the following subsection: “(6A) Power to make appointments on transfer to the office of Administrator, from one such office to another such office carrying the same salary and allowances, shall vest in the Chief Secretary.’.
New 17A Insert the following new clause: “Section 124 amended 17A.
Section 124 of the Constitution is amended- (a) in subsection (1), by deleting the words “four other members”, and inserting the words “six other members, two of whom shall be ordinarily resident in Tobago”; and (b) by deleting subsection (2) and substituting the following: “(2)The members of the Teaching Service Commission- (a) other than the members ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President, after the Prime consultation with Minister and the Leader of the Opposition; and (b) ordinarily resident in Tobago, shall be appointed by the President after consultation with the Chief Secretary the Minority Leader.”.
and New 17B Insert the following new clause: “Section 129 amended 17B.

Section 129 of the Constitution is amended by inserting after subsection (2), the following subsection: “(2A) Notwithstanding subsection (2), where a Service Commission meets, in the exercise of its power in relation to a matter in Tobago, the quorum shall include at least one member appointed from Tobago.”.
8 June 2021 18 Delete the proposed CHAPTER 11A and substitute the following: “CHAPTER 11A TOBAGO LEGISLATURE Establishment of the Tobago Legislature 141A.

(1) There shall be a Tobago Legislature which shall consist of the President and the House of Assembly.

(2) Subject to sections 5 and 53(2) and subsections (3) and (4), the Tobago Legislature shall have power to make laws for the peace, order and good government of Tobago.
(3) A law in force before the coming into force of this section shall continue to apply to Tobago, until such time as it is replaced by a Tobago Act and until any existing law in relation to matters for Tobago is replaced by a Tobago Act, the existing law shall apply in accordance with the powers and functions of the Tobago Legislature.

(4) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Tobago Legislature shall have such other powers and functions in relation to Tobago as may be prescribed.
(5) A Tobago Act shall have effect in Tobago.
(6) Except on the recommendation or with the consent of the Tobago Executive Council, the House of Assembly shall not – (a) proceed upon any Bill, including any amendment to a Bill, which in the opinion of the person presiding, makes provision for any of the following purposes: (i) for imposing or increasing any charge on the revenues or other funds of Tobago or for altering any such charge otherwise than by reducing it; or (ii) for compounding or remitting any debt due to Tobago; (b) proceed upon any motion, including any amendment to a motion, the effect of 8 June 2021 which, in the opinion of the person presiding, would be to make provision for any of the purposes aforesaid; or (c) receive any petition which in the opinion of the person presiding, requests that provision be made for any of the purposes aforesaid.
(7) In this section a public Bill which, in the opinion of the Presiding Officer in the Tobago Legislature, contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the following matters, namely: (a) the imposition, for the payment of debt or other financial purposes, of charges on public money or the variation or repeal of any such charges; (b) the grant of money to Tobago or to any authority or person, or the variation or revocation of any such grant; (c) the appropriation, receipt, custody, investment, issue or audit of accounts of public money; (d) the raising or guarantee of any loan or the repayment thereof, or the establishment, alteration, administration or abolition of any sinking fund provided in connection with any such loan; or (e) subordinate matters incidental to any of the matters referred to in this subsection, Composition of the House of Assembly shall be referred to as a “Money Bill”.
141B.
The House of Assembly shall consist of – in accordance with (a) fifteen Assembly Members elected at an election held the Representation of the People Act and who are qualified to be electors under section 12 of the Representation of the People Act, or such other number of Assembly Members as corresponds with the number of electoral districts as provided for by an Order made by the President; 8 June 2021 (b) five Councillors appointed by the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary; (c) three Councillors appointed by the President, acting in accordance with the advice of the Minority Leader; (d) two Councillors appointed by the President in his discretion from outstanding persons, resident in Tobago, from economic or social or community organisations and other major fields of endeavour; and (e) a Presiding Officer who may or may not be an Assembly Member, who shall not be a- (i) member of the Tobago Executive Council; or (ii) person appointed under paragraph (d).
Powers, privileges and immunities 141C.

(1) The House of Assembly shall have the power to regulate its procedures, including the power to make Standing Orders.

(2) Subject to the rules and Standing Orders of the House of Assembly, there shall be freedom of speech in the Chamber of the House of Assembly.

(3) No civil or criminal proceedings may be instituted against any member or other person for words spoken before, or written in a report of, the House of Assembly or a committee thereof.
(4) In other respects, the powers, privileges and immunities of the House of Assembly, Members and committees of the House of Assembly, shall be such as may from time to time be prescribed by the Tobago Legislature and until so defined shall be those that apply to the House of Representatives and to its members and committees.
8 June 2021 Swearing in of members of the House of Assembly Election of Presiding Officer and Deputy Presiding Officer 141D.The President shall administer the oath of office set out in the First Schedule to the members of the House of Assembly at a meeting held for such purpose, not later than three days after the date of the election or appointment, as the case may be.

141E.
141E.

(1) When the House of Assembly first meets after the election and before it proceeds to the dispatch of any other business, it shall elect a person to be the Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly, and if the office of Presiding Officer falls vacant at any time before the next dissolution, the House of Assembly shall, as soon as practicable, elect another person to that office.
(2) When the House of Assembly first meets after the election and before it proceeds to the dispatch of any other business except the election of the Presiding Officer, the House of Assembly shall elect a person to be the Deputy Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly who is not a Secretary, an Assistant Secretary, an Administrator or a person appointed by the President under section 141B.
(3)Where the office of the Deputy Presiding Officer falls vacant at any time before the next dissolution, the House of Assembly shall, as soon as practicable, elect another person to that office.

(4) Where any person who is not a member of the Tobago Legislature is elected to be a Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly he shall, by virtue of holding office of Presiding Officer, be a member of the House of Assembly in addition to the Assembly Members and Councillors.
(5) The President shall administer the oath set out in the First Schedule to the Presiding Officer whenever the occasion arises.

(6) The Presiding Officer shall ex officio be a Justice of the Peace.
(7) A person shall vacate the office of Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officer – (a) in the case of a Presiding Officer elected 8 June 2021 from among the Assembly Members or in the case of the Deputy Presiding Officer where he ceases to be a member of the House of Assembly, so however that the Presiding Officer shall not vacate his office by reason only that he has ceased to be a member of the House of Assembly on a dissolution of the Tobago Legislature, until the House of Assembly first meets after that dissolution; and (b) in the case of a Presiding Officer elected from among persons who are not members of the House of Assembly– (i) when the House first meets after any Tobago of the dissolution Legislature; (ii) where he ceases to be a citizen of Trinidad and Tobago; or (iii) where any circumstances arise that would cause him to be disqualified for election as a member of the House by virtue of section 141L or any law.
Election of Chief Secretary and Deputy Chief Secretary (8) Where the office of Presiding Officer is vacant or the Presiding Officer is for any reason unable to perform any function conferred upon him, that function may be performed by the Deputy Presiding Officer.

141F.
(1) Where there is occasion for the appointment of a Chief Secretary, the President shall appoint as Chief Secretary- (a) the Assembly Member who is the leader of the party who commands the support of the majority of Assembly Members; or (b) where it appears to him that that party does not have an undisputed leader or that no party commands the support 8 June 2021 of such a majority, the Assembly Member who, in his judgment, is most likely to command the support of the majority of Assembly members, and who is willing to accept the office of Chief Secretary.
(2) Where there is occasion for the appointment of a Deputy Chief Secretary, the President shall appoint as Deputy Chief Secretary an Assembly Member, on the advice of the Chief Secretary.

(3) The President shall administer to the Chief Secretary and Deputy Chief Secretary, respectively, the oath set out in the First Schedule, whenever the occasion arises.

Vacancy in office of Chief Secretary and Deputy Chief Secretary 141G.
(1) Whenever the position of Chief Secretary becomes vacant in accordance with this Constitution, the Deputy Chief Secretary shall assume office of Chief Secretary until a new Chief Secretary is appointed.
(2) If the office of Chief Secretary becomes vacant in circumstances in which the office of the Deputy Chief Secretary is also vacant in accordance with this Constitution, the functions of the office of Chief Secretary shall, until such time as a new Chief Secretary or Deputy Chief Secretary assumes office in accordance with section 141F, be performed by a Secretary who is an Assembly Member appointed by the President on the advice of the Tobago Executive Council.
(3) Whenever the Chief Secretary is absent from Trinidad and Tobago or is unable to perform the functions of Chief Secretary by reason of illness or any other cause, the President may authorise– (a) the Deputy Chief Secretary; or (b) during any period when there is no Deputy Chief Secretary, some other member of the Tobago Executive Council, to discharge such of the functions of the office of Chief Secretary as the President may specify, and the Deputy Chief Secretary or other member of the Tobago Executive Council may discharge those 8 June 2021 functions until his authority is revoked by the President.
(4) Where the Deputy Chief Secretary is unable to perform the function of Chief Secretary for any reason, the discharge of the function of the office of Chief Secretary shall be performed by a Secretary who is also an Assembly Member, and who shall be elected by the Assembly Members from among their number, as the Chief Secretary and following such election, the President shall administer to the Chief Secretary the oath of office set out in the First Schedule.
(5) Whenever the position of Deputy Chief Secretary becomes vacant in accordance with this Constitution, the function of the office of Deputy Chief Secretary shall be performed by a Secretary who is also an Assembly Member, and who shall be elected by the Assembly Members from among their number, as the Deputy Chief Secretary and following such election, the President shall administer to the Deputy Chief Secretary the oath of office set out in the First Schedule.
Appointment of Secretaries and Assistant Secretaries Appointment of Minority Leader 141H.

The President shall appoint Secretaries and Assistant Secretaries on the advice of the Chief Secretary and administer to them the oath set out in the First Schedule.

141I.

(1) There shall be an office of Minority Leader and appointments thereto shall be made by the President.
(2) Immediately after administering the oaths of office to the Chief Secretary and the Deputy Chief Secretary, the President shall, if the person concerned is willing to be appointed, appoint as Minority Leader the Assembly Member who, in his judgment is best able to command the support of the greatest number of Assembly Members who do not support the Chief Secretary.
(3) The office of Minority Leader shall become vacant – (a) when he resigns his office; (b) where the holder thereof ceases to be a member of the House of Assembly for any cause other than a dissolution of the House of Assembly; or (c) when the House of Assembly first meets after a dissolution of the House of 8 June 2021 Assembly.
(4) Where the office of Minority Leader is vacant, whether because there is no member of the House of Assembly so qualified for appointment or because no one qualified for appointment is willing to be appointed, or because the Minority Leader has resigned his office or for any other reason, any provision in this Constitution requiring consultation with the Minority Leader shall, in so far as it requires such consultation, be of no effect.
(5) The President shall administer to the Minority Leader the oath set out in the First Schedule whenever the occasion arises.

Appointment of Councillors 141J.

(1) Immediately after the appointment of the Minority Leader under section 141I, the President shall administer to each Councillor the oath set out in the First Schedule.

Temporary appointments 141K.


(1) Where a Councillor is incapable of performing his functions as a Member of the House of Assembly by reason of- (a) his absence from Trinidad and Tobago; or (b) illness, the President may appoint a person qualified for appointment as a Councillor to be temporarily a Member of the House of Assembly during such absence or illness.
(2) In the exercise of the powers conferred upon him by this section the President shall act- (a) in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary in relation to a Councillor appointed under section 141B (b); (b) in accordance with the advice of the Minority Leader in relation to a Councillor appointed under section 141B (c); and (c) in accordance with his own judgment to a in Councillor appointed by him relation 8 June 2021 under section 141B (d).

Motion of No Confidence in Chief Secretary 141L.


(1) Where the Assembly Members pass a resolution, supported by the votes of a majority of Assembly Members, declaring that they have no confidence in the Chief Secretary and the Chief Secretary does not, within seven days of the passing of such a resolution, either resign or advise the President to dissolve the Tobago Legislature, the President shall revoke the appointment of the Chief Secretary.
(2) The Chief Secretary shall also vacate his office- (a) when, after any dissolution of the Tobago Legislature, he the is President that the President is about to reappoint him as Chief Secretary or to appoint another person as Chief Secretary; or informed by (b) where for any reason other than a dissolution of the Tobago Legislature, he ceases to be an Assembly Member.

(3) The Deputy Chief Secretary and Secretary shall vacate their office when any person is appointed or reappointed as Chief Secretary.
(4) The Deputy Chief Secretary or a Secretary shall vacate their office where an appointment as the Deputy Chief Secretary or Secretary, respectively, is revoked by the President acting in accordance with the advice of the Chief Secretary.

(5) Where, at any time, the Chief Secretary is required under section 141M (1) to cease to perform his functions as a member of the House of Assembly, he shall cease during such time to perform any of his functions as Chief Secretary.
(6) Where, at any time, a Secretary is required under section 141N (1) to cease to perform his functions, he shall cease during such time to perform any of his functions as Secretary.

Qualification and disqualification 141M.


(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person is qualified to be elected as an Assembly Member in a primary election or on a bye- for membership election or as a Presiding Officer or appointed as a Councillor if that person – 8 June 2021 (a) is a citizen of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago; (b) is qualified to be an elector under section 12 of the Representation of the People Act; and (c) resides in Tobago.
(2) A person not being a citizen of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is disqualified from being elected or appointed as a Member of the House of Assembly, or being a citizen if he – (a) is a citizen of a country other than Trinidad and Tobago having become such citizen voluntarily, or is under a declaration of allegiance to such a country; (b) has been adjudged or otherwise declared bankrupt under any law in force in any country and has not been discharged; (c) is a mentally ill person within the meaning of the Mental Health Act; (d) is under sentence of death imposed on him by a Court in any country or is serving sentence of imprisonment, by whatever name called, exceeding twelve months imposed on him by such a Court or substituted by competent authority for some other sentence imposed on him by such a Court or is under such a sentence of imprisonment, the execution of which has been suspended; (e) is disqualified from being elected under sections 31 and 32 of the Representation of the People Act; (f) holds, or is acting in, an office of the House of Assembly as may be prescribed, but a person is not disqualified by reason only of receiving, or being entitled to receive, payment by way of travelling or subsistence 8 June 2021 allowances or a refund of out-of-pocket expenses; (g) is a member of the Senate or the House of Representatives or of a Municipal or Regional Corporation; (h) is disqualified for membership of the House of Representatives by virtue of any law in force in Trinidad and Tobago by reason of his having been convicted of any offence relating to elections; or (i) is not qualified to be registered as an elector at a Parliamentary election under any law in force in Trinidad and Tobago.
(3) The House of Assembly may provide that, subject to such exceptions and limitations, if any, as may be prescribed, a person may be disqualified for membership of the House of Assembly by virtue of- (a) his holding or acting in any office or appointment (either individually or by to a class of office or reference appointment); (b) his belonging to any of the armed forces of the State or to any class of person that is comprised in any such force; or (c) his belonging to any police force or to any class of person that is comprised in any such force.
(4) For the purposes of subsection (2) (d)- (a) two or more sentences of imprisonment that are required to be served consecutively shall be regarded as separate sentences if none of those sentences exceeds twelve months, but if any one of such sentences exceeds that term they shall be regarded as one sentence; and 8 June 2021 (b) no account shall be taken of a sentence of imprisonment imposed as an alternative to or in default of the payment of a fine.

141N.
(1) Subject to section 141O, the seat of an Assembly Member becomes vacant where he – (a) submits a written resignation to the Presiding Officer or, in the case of the Presiding Officer, where he submits a written resignation to the President or his appointment as Presiding Officer in accordance with subsection (2); revoked is Vacancy of office of a member of the House of Assembly (b) is absent from ordinary sittings of the House of Assembly for such period and in such circumstances as may be set out in the Standing Orders of the House of Assembly; or (c) ceases to possess any of the qualifications required by section 141M(1) or is or becomes disqualified from being a member of the House of Assembly for any of the reasons set out in section 141M (2).
(2) The President shall revoke – (a) the appointment of a Councillor on the advice of the person who nominated him or by reason of any of the matters set out in subsection (1); and (b) the appointment of the Presiding Officer following a vote of no confidence against him supported by a majority of the members of the House of Assembly.

Declaration vacancy of 141O.


(1) The Presiding Officer shall formally declare a vacancy in the House of Assembly – (a) at the first meeting of the House of Assembly following the vacating of a seat by virtue of section 141N or 141M(4); or (b) on the adoption of a motion of the members of 8 June 2021 the the House of Assembly based on recommendation of a committee appointed for the purpose of section 141N (1)(c).
(2) A vacancy pursuant to subsection (1) shall have effect from the date on which it is so declared.

(3) The notice of a declaration of vacancy shall be signed by the Clerk and sent forthwith to the President and a copy thereof shall be posted up in a prominent position on the outer door of the Chamber of the House of Assembly and published in the Gazette and in at least one daily newspaper circulating in Trinidad and Tobago and may be published electronically or by any other means.
Filling of vacancies 141P.

(1) Where the President is notified that the seat of an Assembly Member has become vacant, the President shall, subject to subsections (2) and (3), issue a writ addressed to the Returning Officer of the corresponding electoral area for the holding of a bye-election for the election of an Assembly Member to fill the vacancy.
(2) The President shall, after consultation with the Chief Secretary, fix the date of a bye-election for the election of an Assembly Member, which date shall not be earlier than the expiration of two months after the declaration of the vacancy nor later than the expiration of three months after that declaration.
(3) No bye-election for the election of an Assembly Member shall be held within a period of one year prior to the holding of a primary election and the President may decline to issue a writ under subsection (1) if the vacancy is declared within one year from the date on which the House of Assembly is due to stand dissolved.
(4) Where the office of the Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officer is declared vacant, an election to fill that vacancy shall be held at the meeting of the House of Assembly next following the declaration of the vacancy.

(5) A person elected or appointed to the House of Assembly to fill a vacancy shall be administered the relevant oath of office by the President.

Dissolution of the Tobago Legislature 141Q.


(1) The Tobago Legislature shall be dissolved- 8 June 2021 (a) four years from the date of its first meeting after any primary election; (b) by a resolution supported by a majority of two thirds of the Assembly Members; or (c) by the President, acting in accordance with section 141L (1).
(2) A primary election for the House of Assembly shall be held on the - (a) second Monday after the date of the fourth anniversary of the last primary election; or (b) fourth Monday after the date of any dissolution in accordance with subsection (1)(b) or (c).

(3) Where the date specified under subsection (2) is a public holiday or the date of a general election, the primary election of the House of Assembly shall be held on the Monday of the following week.

Jurisdictional limit 141R.


The powers of the House of Assembly and the Tobago Executive Council under section 53, 75A, 75B, 75C, 75D and this Chapter and any other law shall have effect within Tobago.”.

New Insert the following new clause: 18A “New sections 144 and 145 inserted 18A.

The Constitution is amended by inserting after section 143, the following sections: “Resolution of dispute 144.
Where there is a dispute between the Government of Trinidad and Tobago and the Tobago Island Government, both parties to the dispute shall make every reasonable effort to resolve the dispute by means of mechanisms and procedures provided or adopted for that purpose, and shall exhaust such mechanisms and 8 June 2021 procedures before it approaches a Court to resolve the dispute.

Dispute Resolution Committee 145.

(1) A Dispute Resolution Committee is established.


(2)The Resolution Committee shall comprise five members as follows: Dispute (a) two members appointed by the Prime Minister; (b) two members appointed by the Chief Secretary; (c) one member appointed by the President, after the consultation with Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary, who shall be the Chairman.
(3) The Dispute Resolution Committee shall have the jurisdiction to mediate or mitigate any disputes that may arise in relation to the exercise of administrative powers as prescribed.

(4) The Dispute Resolution Committee shall make recommendations to the Prime Minister, who shall consult with the Chief Secretary before making a decision.

(5) A review of a decision of the Prime Minister shall lie to the High Court.
(6) An appeal against a decision of the High Court under subsection (5) shall lie to the Court of Appeal, and the decision of the Court of Appeal shall be final.”.

19 Delete the proposed Oaths and substitute the following: 8 June 2021 “FORM OF OATH (OR AFFIRMATION) OF OFFICE FOR AN ASSEMBLY MEMBER (Section 141D) an elected Assembly Member I,………………………………………………………………………………..,having been swear by……………………………………………………………………………….
(solemn ly affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Trinidad and Tobago, will uphold the Constitution and the law, and will conscientiously and impartially discharge the duties and responsibilities of Assembly Member that I am now about to assume.
Tobago for do FORM OF OATH (OR AFFIRMATION) OF OFFICE FOR THE PRESIDING OFFICER AND THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER (section 141E) I,……………………………………………………………………………, having been elected Presiding Officer/Deputy Presiding Officer of the House of Assembly do swear by ……………………………………………..(solemnly affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Trinidad and Tobago, will uphold the Constitution and the law, and will conscientiously, impartially and to the best of my knowledge, judgment and ability discharge the functions of my office.
FORM OF OATH (OR AFFIRMATION) OF OFFICE FOR THE CHIEF SECRETARY, DEPUTY CHIEF SECRETARY, SECRETARY AND ASSISTANT SECRETARY (Sections 141F and141H) I, ………………………………………………...……………………….., do swear by…………………………………………………..….
(solemnly affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Trinidad and Tobago, will uphold the Constitution and the law, and will conscientiously, impartially and to the best of my ability discharge my duties as Chief Secretary/Deputy Chief Secretary/Secretary/Assistant Secretary and do right to all manner of people without fear or favour, affection or ill-will.
8 June 2021 FORM OF OATH (OR AFFIRMATION) OF OFFICE FOR MINORITY LEADER (Section 141I) appointed a Minority I,………………………………………………………………………………., having been by Leader …………………………………………………(solemnly affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Trinidad and Tobago, will uphold the Constitution and the law, and will conscientiously and impartially discharge the duties and responsibilities of Minority Leader that I am now about to assume.
Tobago swear for do FORM OF OATH (OR AFFIRMATION) OF OFFICE FOR COUNCILLORS a appointed (Section 141J) I,………………………………………………………………….…...…, having been swear by…………………………...…………………………………….

(solemnly affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Trinidad and Tobago, will uphold the Constitution and the law, and will conscientiously and impartially discharge the duties and responsibilities of Councillor that I am now about to assume.”.

Councillor Tobago for do 20 21 Delete.

Delete.