Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698832891974.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 1 WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ The House met at 15:02.

House Chairperson Ms M G Boroto took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
WELCOMING OF NEW MEMBER (Announcement) The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I wish to announce that the vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the resignation of Mr T T Mboweni has been filled by the nomination of Ms M L Pietersen with effect from 24 February 2022.

The member has made and subscribed the oath in the Deputy Speaker’s Office.

I want to welcome you, hon member.

You may stand so that they can see you.

Thank you very much.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 2 PROTOCOLS ON WEARING OF MASKS (Announcement) The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, a reminder that the protocols have not changed.

Let us keep ourselves safe.

I don’t want to see myself asking people to put their masks on.

I can because of the distance I have, with my Table’s assistance.

Please, let’s keep on doing that until we are advised otherwise.
The first item on today’s Order Paper is Questions addressed to the Ministers in Cluster 1 – Peace and Security.

Just to remind you that there are four supplementary questions to each question.

Parties have given an indication as to which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on.

Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose.

This was done to facilitate the participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform.
Members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officer.

In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness, among others, has been applied.

If a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 3 member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member.
When all supplementary questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper.

Hon members, the first question has been asked by the hon D L Moela to the Minister of International Relations and Co- Operation.

The hon Minister?

Hon Deputy Minister, I have been informed that you will be taking care of the questions for International Relations.

Thank you very much.

You may proceed.


QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS CLUSTER 1 - PEACE AND SECURITY Question 13: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, our response is as follows.

The work undertaken by respective missions globally is an extension of our domestic priorities.
As you will recall, at the centre of the Sixth administration’s economic agenda is driving inward and outward investment opportunities to accelerate economic growth and create a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 4 conducive environment for job opportunities critical to addressing the triple challenges which the COVID-19 outbreak has exacerbated.

The missions’ operations are aligned to the Sixth administration’s objectives.
Therefore, in practice they implement economic diplomacy programmes within their annual performance plan that seeks to promote South Africa as a preferred investment and tourism destination.

We have to this effect, through the Directorate Trade and Investment Promotion, established a system to oversee and co-ordinate economic diplomacy activities to identify tangible investment leads and information management with the missions and external stakeholders.
In addition, we have observed that initiatives undertaken by the missions to support the investment conference since inception, are bearing fruit, and ... with growing interest and participation by foreign investors.

I thank you, Chair.

Mr D L MOELA: House Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity and thank you, hon Deputy Minister, Candith Mashego-Dlamini for the response provided to the House and to the nation.

Just a follow up question, hon Deputy Minister.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 5 South Africa will be hosting another investment conference this year, as you have alluded to.

Are there any specific activities that will be undertaken by our missions abroad to encourage investors to consider South Africa as an investment destination of choice as part of the build-up programme towards this investment conference that we are talking about?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, for the coming investment conference that we will be hosting here in South Africa, all our missions are mobilising investors from the different countries of their deployment.

We always use other ...

[Inaudible.]

... or open days or whatever just to promote the opportunities that are available in South Africa.
So, all our missions are busy trying their best to make sure that they create interest among our international investors to attend the conference and to invest in South Africa, as they did in all other conferences that have taken place.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, we know that our tourism industry, as one of our mainstream incomes for South Africa, was hurt tremendously by COVID in the last two years.
Once the bans UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 6 were lifted, the DA City of Cape Town and Cape Town Tourism initiatives focussed on key source cities like Munich, London and New York, with strategic marketing campaigns to attract international visitors.

The result showed a super 58% recovery in overseas tourism in the Western Cape during the December- January period.
Now, what will your department do differently through our embassies to ensure that tourism to South Africa through the economic diplomacy programme increases, as we have seen little progress to date?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, there are many activities that are going on in our missions as it stands and I know there are serious exhibitions that are happening, especially in our missions abroad, to exhibit the tourism sites that are here in South Africa.

So, those are the other issues that they are doing now.
I hope that tourists will come to South Africa, more so ... most of our people here in South Africa have been vaccinated.

Others are still left to have the booster ...

However, I still say to the members that we really need to make sure that everybody gets vaccinated so that we UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 7 don’t scare our tourists as they come to South Africa.

Thank you very much, Chair.


Rev K R J MESHOE: House Chair, the economic diplomacy programme should bring in foreign direct investment more than ever before.

Even though South Africa’s taxpayers are under huge financial pressure as a result of high unemployment in our country, they are nevertheless still required to fund diplomatic missions to over 100 countries.
My question, Deputy Minister, is whether all the diplomatic missions that we have abroad have successful economic diplomacy programmes that have resulted in bringing foreign direct investments that have grown our economy, and if not, what value for money does our country get from diplomatic missions that are just spending money with no tangible returns in the form of much-needed jobs?

I thank you.
I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, to the hon member, all our missions, and our ambassadors and high commissioners, have signed a performance agreement and economic growth is part of their performance agreement.
And as such, all of them have a responsibility to make sure that they UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 8 put the means in place to ensure that they interact with businesspeople in the countries of their deployment, and ensure that people become interested in coming to South Africa.
So, we hope that as we assess our officials, especially the high commissioners and ambassadors, we will also be assessing them in line with what they have signed as part of their performance agreement ... economic recovery.

Thank you very much, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.

The last follow up question on Question 13 will be from the hon Kwankwa.

The hon Kwankwa?

Okay, is he not on the platform?

We proceed.

Thank you.

The hon Kwankwa is not on the platform.


We proceed to Question 41, asked by the hon Whitfield to the Minister of Police.

The hon Minister?

Question 41: The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, hon members, hon Whitfield, the estimates of national expenditure 2022 provides for additional funding for the recruitment of entry-level constables over the medium-term period.
A total of 12 000 entry-level constable posts ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 9 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G B Boroto): Hon Minister, I’m sorry to disturb you.

I think the mic is too low and you are having the file above it.

The sound is not so good.

[Interjections.]

[Laughter.]

I don’t know what to do ... IsiZulu: UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Uyangizwa manje.

Ngiyezwakala yini manje?

English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G B Boroto): Yes.
The file was obscuring the sound there.

Okay!

IsiZulu: Mnu T M LANGA: Insangu, insangu le.

English: The MINISTER OF POLICE: A total of 12 000 entry-level constable posts have been provided for; of which 7 000 entry- level constables will be appointed in the 2022-23 financial year and the other 5 000 in the 2023-24 financial year.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 10 In addition, 3 000 posts were advertised in the 2021-22 financial year and these members will undergo training in the 2022-23 financial year.

Therefore, a total of 10 000 recruits will be trained in 2022; that is 10 000 plus 5 000.

Thanks.

Mr A G WHITFIELD: House Chairperson, in 2012 the SA Police Service, SAPS, employed 200 000 personnel.
This was to a police to citizen ratio of 1 to 254; 10 years later, this year, SAPS employs 175 000 personnel with a police to citizen ratio of 1 to 330.

According to the police’s own restructuring plan, personnel will continue to decline to 163 000 by 2024; this is the police’s official restructuring plan.

This will put the police to citizen ratio close to 1 to 400.
We know that these personnel cuts are going to hit visible policing the hardest; which is good news for criminals and bad news for community safety.

We welcome the President’s announcement of an additional 12 000 officers and the increase in the budget of R8,7 billion.

But this is still less than 10% of the total UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 11 budget and according to SAPS’ own calculations will still result in a net loss of personnel by 2024.
Will the Minister guarantee to this House that not a single cent of the R8,7 billion increase to the SAPS budget be spent on the top ... senior management including the golden handshake payment to the National Police Commissioner?

And will he commit to streamlining the SAPS’ fixed establishment to reduce the number of highly-paid brigadiers and generals in favour of more frontline policing?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, the answer will be yes.

But I hear what the hon member says.


Indeed, in 2012 there were 195 500 police; which gives a round figure of 200 000.

At the present moment they are notaring 75 per 177 000, which is 2 000 extra than what you said.

Chairperson, it’s true that there are several things that have caused the numbers declining: natural, people dying, leaving the organization and less recruitment.

I think that has changed now.


The President has changed that through the Minister of Finance, that these figures are UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 12 coming; which will improve visibility, will improve the ratio policing, but also, will improve the special units.
As you know, hon Whitfield, that most of the special units need young blood: your Public Order Policing, POP, your special task force, your National Intelligence Unit, NIU, your Tactical Response Team, TRT, your Counter Assault Team, CAT, they need young blood, to such an extent that most of these figures you see here will be absorbed on those special units with a hope that we will be able to get some figures going forward.
Indeed, people have ... organization has gone down but we believe that under the present dispensation that will be corrected.

It might take a little bit of time but we are in the process of correcting that.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Ms N P PEACOCK: House Chair, to the Minister: How will the increase of the recruit be able to assist in addressing recommendation raised by the High-Level Panel Report on capacity as well as public order police?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, [Inaudible] there have been quite several recommendations on these matters; one of those UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 13 recommendations is the Farlam recommendation.

But also on the high expert recommendations made by the team of professor Sindi Africa: they have suggested visibility, they have suggested the question of feeding those units but specially the unit spoke about is the same unit Farlam spoke about which is the POP.
But also to increase the young blood at the station level and the better training on those that are at the station.

Chairperson, on the recruitment that is happening now we are recruiting 200 Bsc students to be part of the police so that they go to the laboratories, they deal with the forensics, science and all that; so, specifically, we are recruiting that group of people.
But we are also recruiting accountants so that they can go on the specialized units like your Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, and then we are not just moving only as it has been recommended, but not just moving only on the quantity but we are also dealing with the quality of the organization.

Thanks.
Thanks.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 14 Mr H A SHEMBENI: Minister, the problem of policing crime in this country rests much on the lack of leadership by those in leadership positions at the SAPS.

The management of the SAPS is highly bloated, with about 200 generals and over 600 brigadiers, and together, their salaries are over a billion rand per year.
In order to build a good number of police boots on the ground, why have you not considered trimming the fat at the top in order to employ more police who will do the actual policing on the ground?

Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chair, well, indeed, the same question was asked initially by hon Whitfield.

We are working on flattening of the structure.

We agree, the structure is too much high going forward, there are too many [Laughter.]
starting from lieutenant-colonel and colonels, brigadiers, major-generals, generals and all that.

We agree, and it’s a big money that is going there.

What is happening on the present restructuring is that there is an amalgamation of the divisions there so that you find UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 15 fewer generals, fewer deputy-generals and fewer divisional- commissioners.
By the way, generals are director-generals and divisional- commissioners are deputy director-generals.

So, we are taking on board what you are saying.

All this money that is put there, we are working hard that it must go on the ground to train the new constables, but also improve on the skills of those that are there and little money, if it should be, worth the top.

We are very much aware; we are working on it.

Thanks.
Thanks.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Minister, first of all allow me to congratulate the men and women in blue for a very successful week, particularly it was [Inaudible.]

and then Delmas and then, of course, arresting the kingpin and the high jacking and kidnapping.

Minister, your predecessor agreed in Parliament that in order to [Inaudible.]

those with passion and commitment in the police force, you need to include it in the curriculum at basic education level.
Are you speaking to your counterpart in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 16 the Department of Basic Education to include, maybe, policing in the curriculum?

Very important and the reason why I say this, Minister, is this, you are now going to have 12 000, by the time you train them and they gain experience, you’ve lost a couple of years.
And very importantly, I want you to understand, Minister, is that many of them, that are skilled, have left the police force as a result of the retirement age coming to effect at 55; secondly, because they are unhappy in terms of the promotion ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G B Boroto): Question!

Your time Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: ... thirdly, private sector is attracting them with better salaries and benefits.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, Chairperson, we haven’t spoken to the basic education but we have spoken to the higher education.

In Hammanskraal we are establishing, under the leadership of the Deputy Minister, a university college where we will be in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 17 collaboration with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI, the people from London-Scotland Yard to train our people there.

Even yesterday there was a meeting of taking that forward.
Deputy Minister has gone to those places.

He has been in the FBI headquarters, China, Russia; he was about to go to Scotland Yard when covid came.

So, we are working on that.

But besides, on the new blood that is there, medium and lower, we have agreed with the management, but with the President to say we need to get a group of people that we’ll take them to these institutions, spend some time there at those institutions to be able to get the [Inaudible.]
higher learning and requirement so that we bring them back here and they are able to understand this policing at international level.

That is being done, hon member.

Question 65: The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House Chairperson, my apologies that I could not come to the House, I am a bit fluish.

It is in the interest of the members that I respond from here.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 18 Hon members, as members of the executive we meet with His Excellency, President Cyril Ramaphosa, on a regular basis to discuss various matters of our portfolios.
The process began on 16 September 2021 when His Excellency, President Cyril Ramaphosa called on South Africans to nominate suitable qualified candidates for the position of the head of the judiciary of South Africa which was the first of its kind in our country and in many jurisdictions in the world.

This invitation was intended to promote transparency and enable public participation in the appointment of the Chief Justice.

The submission process closed on 1 October 2021.


In response to the call for public participation, the public made 148 submissions which consisted of 25 names.

Some of these individuals featured in more than one submission.

Of the 25 names, only eight nominations met the criteria as set out in the call by the President.

The criteria referred to above stipulated the following.
A nomination letter including the contact details of the nominator, the nominee’s acceptance of the nomination and their contact details, letter of support for the nomination and contact details of person or entity that supports the nomination including at least one letter of support from a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 19 professional body of legal practitioners, non political organisations working in the field of human rights or other legal fields, and additional documentation that the person nominating the candidate for the Chief Justice deems relevant.
The nomination panel was chaired by judge Navi Pillay.

It assessed and scrutinised all submissions.

With regards to suitability, President Ramaphosa has publicly explained that the Judicial Service Commissions, JSC, advices the President on the suitability of the candidates.
This explanation is in line with section 174(3) of the Constitution which reads: The President as head of the national executive, after consulting the Judicial Service Commission and the leaders of parties represented in the National Assembly, appoints the Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice and, after consulting the Judicial Service Commission, appoints the President and Deputy President of the Supreme Court of Appeal.

Thank you.
Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 20 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.

Just put your hot water with lemon next to you.

We have Mama Yako to ask the supplementary question.

Mrs Y N YAKO: House Chair, to Mr Lamola, the concerns that many have about the attempt at judicial capture should concern you as a Minister of Justice.
The rest of the population needs to have confidence that decisions relating to the administration of justice are beyond reproach.

In light of the interviews for the Chief Justice and the recommendation made to the President by the JSC, has the President informed you of when is he going to make an appointment for the position of the chief justice, and why he thinks that you, as a JSC, overstepped your mark in recommending Judge Mandisa Maya as Chief Justice?
As a Minister responsible for justice are you not concerned that we have not had a Chief Justice for over four months?

Thank you, House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.

Before I allow the Minister to respond, just as a reminder of our Rules.

Rule 137.2 state exactly that you cannot ask more than one question.

So, please, let us take care of that because if they respond to one, they are correct.

So, let’s please stick to our Rules.

The hon the Minister?


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 21 The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House Chair, that assertion of the judicial capture is unfounded.
As I have said, for the first time in the history of our country the President, on his own discretion, opened up the process for the sake of transparency and for the sake of public participation where he allowed South Africans from all walks of life to participate in the appointment of the Chief Justice.

There cannot be more transparency than that.

The whole process is in the public eye and political parties are participating by making their inputs.
So, that assertion is not only far fetched but unscrupulous, unfounded and it has all the hallmarks of conspiracy because what the president has done, as I have said, is in line with section 174(3) of the Constitution.

This publicly explained view that the Judicial Services Commission advises the President on the suitability of the candidates is in line with section 174(3) of the Constitution which I again read for the benefit of the member.
The President as head of the national executive, after consulting the Judicial Service Commission and the leaders of parties represented in the National Assembly, appoints the Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 22 and, after consulting the Judicial Service Commission, appoints the President and Deputy President of the Supreme Court of Appeal.
So, the President has opened up the process and allowed the public to participate, including hon members in this House whom their majority have made their views and comments on the matter.

On behalf of the President, I want to thank all political parties who have submitted their views and I think those views will enable the President to make a decision to appoint the Chief Justice.

As things stand, the current Acting Chief Justice is holding the fort, the judiciary is functioning and there is no crisis.
Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson.

Mr Q R DYANTYI: House Chair, to the Minister, can you assist in speaking to the nation so that we avoid lousy conspiracies and just outline in simple terms and very briefly the process that gets followed in appointing a Chief Justice so that we don’t get into all oof these conspiracies that are being spread around.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 23 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, I hope you will be able to do that in two minutes, as I remind you.

The hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Chairperson, in the past there was a process to appoint the Chief Justice where the President nominated only one person.
When the outgoing Chief Justice was appointed, when the former Chief Justice Ngcobo and also when the former Chief Justice Pius Langa was appointed only one member from the judiciary was appointed.

What the current President has done is unprecedented — it is the hallmark of transparency which will be appreciated by all democratic loving South Africans because it gave a platform for the people of this country to have a say in terms of who must become the Chief Justice.
It also killed all kinds of conspiracies, and all kinds of matters that may want to assume or to cast aspersion on the person of the President who gave and shared his constitutional power, as I have said, in terms of section 174(3).

He shared this power with all South Africans and all Members of this Parliament by giving them a platform and an opportunity to make an input.
Therefore, whoever is going to be appointed at the end of this whole UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 24 process by the President is an outcome of a process that all South Africans will have participated in.

I do believe that we will all welcome that process and that outcome because it will be a product of a democratic process by all South Africans.

Thank you very much.


Mr W HORN: House Chair, to the Minister, it is of course so that the manner in which the JSC has dealt with the last two rounds of interviews has created the ground for all sorts of conspiracies.

Would you agree as the representative of the executive on the JSC that the time is now right for the JSC to adopt for a code of conduct for its members which should include the rules of engagement with members amongst themselves and with candidates?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House Chair, yes, I do agree that there could be a need to tweak some of the codes of conduct.

We already have a protocol that is there within the JSC, the Constitution also stipulates the type of fit and proper people that must be appointed.
The JSC in rules itself does stipulate but there is nothing wrong for the JSC itself to engage on what it believes may be necessary to tweak some of the codes of conduct to continue to protect UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 25 the decorum, the standing and the dignity of the process.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: House Chairperson, to the Minister, given the imperative need for leadership and stability in our judicial services, it is crucial that the appointment of Chief Justice be completed as expeditiously as possible.

Having said that, judicial independence is just as critical.
My question is how will your department, which controls the budget allocation of the Office of the Chief Justice, ensure that the allocation of budget is not used as a command and control allocation which could be seen to interfere with the independence of the judiciary?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much.
Indeed, we continuously follow all the Treasury fiscal policies to ensure that all the budget allocations to all departments under the Department of Justice are followed through the prescripts of the National Treasury, and that includes the Office of the Chief Justice, so that their allocation and the baseline is informed by the needs and the current fiscal environment.
There is a continuous engagement between the National Treasury and the Office of the Chief Justice, represented by the accounting officer, to ensure that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 26 the needs are catered for and where fiscal framework allows the increase it does happen as you would have heard from the Minister of Finance.

The current fiscal environment affects all the national departments and not only the judiciary.
The National Treasury continues to bend their hands backwards to help the needs of the judiciary and also all the entities under the Department of Justice so that the wheels of justice can continue to turn.

There will never be a space for any pulling of strings to hamstrung or to obstruct the work of the judiciary because that will be unconstitutional.

Our Constitution is very clear and all the prescripts are to the effect that such a thing cannot be allowed to happen in our democratic country.
Thank you.

Question 20: The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you House Chair, the plan for the acquisition of 10 000 young people, who are coming to digitise our record will be as follows, firstly, we need to acquire them and we are hoping that we are acquiring the 10 000 young people each ...

[Inaudible.]

...month.


Wherein we will place adverts in social media platforms, radio, notices at all tuition centres, labour centres, national development UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 27 agency platform and print media.

And we will continue with the shortlisting where we will boost the PB text like credit rating, citizenship, criminal checks, etc., etc.
The 10 000 young people, will be appointed to all provinces, depending on the weight of the work, as determine by the number of records.

These records which I have mentioned, which I said they start in 1895, they are all the provinces of South Africa.

So the young people won’t be in one province, they will be in all the provinces.
And lastly and important House Chairperson, this is not internship programme, I heard many people saying the Department of Home Affairs will provide internship, no, these are unemployed people, some of them are they have forfeited internship long ago.
But, we are giving them a contract and apart from digitising, they are going to be given entrepreneurial skills, coding, robotics, digital transformation, financial management, business project management and the strategies for future on how to write some curriculum vitae, CV, etc.

Now, the second part of the question is how budget is projected the cost.

When we did our ...

[Inaudible.]

...we put UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 28 two scenarios.
The first scenario is in the ...

[Inaudible.]

... to say four months, in which case it will cost R2,2 billion.

On the other hand, if it takes ...

[Inaudible.]

... yes that’s three years, 36 months.

It will then costs R3,2 billion.

Thank you very much.


Ms T I LEKGWASE: Thank you House Chair, hon Minister, given the high unemployment rate and deepening inequality, how will the department ensure that young people, women and people living with disability in rural areas and those without access of internet will be considered during this recruitment drive?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: In the project plan, hon ...

[Inaudible.]

... we specifically set 60% ...

[Inaudible.]

... will be immediate and will be insist people...


[Inaudible.]

... and secondly as I’ve already said, we will make sure that we meet our youth all of them, that’s why I said it will be in every province.

There will walk ins.

Those who just walk in say I am here, there will adverts at ...

[Inaudible.]

... centres, labour centres, national development agency and we hope ...

[Inaudible.]

... Members of Parliament will also help with their contribution to this, but nobody will be left behind.
Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 29 Mrs L L VAN DER MERWE: Thank you House Chairperson.

Thank you very much hon Minister.

Hon Minister, we welcome of course the creation of these 10 000 jobs, for our young people as it is disparately needed.

But, we’ve got some practical concerns.

First and foremost, you spoke about citizenship, but can you ensure us that these positions will be reserved or that South Africans will be prioritised for these opportunities?
And your department, hon Minister already struggle with corruption within in its ranks.

Considering that these new employees will be handling sensitive data and information.

What steps will be in place to ensure that this project doesn’t lead to data breaches, loss of confidential information or even corruption.

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon member, there is a question which I am going to answer, asking the same thing, but maybe I can just do it now.
Number one, this is money from the fiscus ...

[Inaudible.]

... important, it has to ...

[Inaudible.]

... because of the nature of the work that is going to be done.

So, that’s why I am mentioning as one of the ...

[Inaudible.]

... in the plan.

And, when we submitted to Treasury, requesting, we actually mentioned that.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 30 On the issue of corruption, hon member, we are going to call a press conference to outline, so that people understand step by step what’s going to be done.

And, we believe from the plan which we will actually explain exactly in that press conference.

You will judge for yourself whether there will be any corruption or not.

We are not starting from the scratch.


The Department of Basic Education, hired 360 000 assistant educators, there were no problems, there was no corruption because of the method they’ve used.

And, we are going to use the similar method ...

[Inaudible.]

... thank you.


Ms L F TITO: Kea leboga [thank you] House Chair, Minister in November 2016 the then Home Affairs Minister, Malusi Gigaba and the then statistician General, Pali Lehohla announced a collaboration for the digitalisation for the records at the Home Affairs.

This is exactly the same project that the President has announced in Sona.

Why did the digitisation project between the Home Affairs Statistics South Africa not yield any results?

And what could be different this time?


Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, digitisation by Stats South Africa is ongoing, hon ...

[Inaudible.]

... is still ongoing.

But, the problem is this.

The records we are UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 31 talking about are ...

[Inaudible.]

... and they stretched from 1895.

Now using an ordinary budget which is what we were doing to give to Stats South Africa.

They were ...

[Inaudible.]


... per annum.

If you calculate, it will take us 60 years, 60 years or more because 60 years will be for ...

[Inaudible.]

... but the records we are seeing here - these are records of birth, death, marriage, identity document, ID, passport stretching back in 1895 ...

[Inaudible.]

... that project won’t finish the job.

We want the specific project, specifically funded and we got this opportunity.

Thank you very much.


Mr W M THRING: Thank you House Chair, Minister, the Department of Home Affairs has become characterised by long ques, many hours that one has to spend queuing or waiting for services inside buildings.

Some of the times also the unfriendly and unhelpful staff manning some of the offices.
Now Minister will the recruitment of these 10 000 young people for the digitisation of paper records help to improve this challenges that many South Africans face, as well as improve the image of department?

If yes, how, if not, why not?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, remember the Department of Home Affairs came to the portfolio committee to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 32 outline the plan about the problem we are facing.
This issue of long queues and all that.

We outlined the business and the plan.

But this digitalisation is ...

[Inaudible.]

... part of the long ques is caused by people who come ...

[Inaudible.]

... many times.

Because there’s no way you serving them once.

Let me give an example, let’s say you are looking for an abridged certificate or you are looking for a marriage or some parent or death parent, who got married 80 years ago and you’ve got to go and check from the records.
Now, you’ve got 300 million records per ...

[Inaudible.]

... papers, manual, you’ve got to go through them to check that.

It takes days, but after digitisation, anybody wo enters Home Affairs and says I am looking for this record, will be there on the fingerprints and they don’t have to come to Home Affairs again.

And so, they won’t contribute to the long ques.

So, this is how this project is going to contribute.

You might have heard people who are ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

... and saying I’ve applied for this and that three months ago or six months ago, even a year and I am not getting the answer, is because our problems ...

[Inaudible.]

... through document which stretching from millennia and they are searching for them manually.

So, we are very excited that this programme, will bring all the information you want on your fingertips.

Thank you.
Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 33 Question 11: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, our response is as follows.
South Africa is continuing to encourage all parties through quite diplomacy within all relevant international mechanisms such as the United Nations, UN, including Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa, Brics, countries to strengthen all diplomatic efforts to avoid an escalation of tension and work towards an inclusive, sustainable and peaceful solution based on co-operation and dialogue.
In this regard, South Africa encourages all parties to approach dialogue with a spirit of compromise in order to move the process forward without accusing any party – something that would not be helpful in the efforts of resolving the conflict.

South Africa stands by its principled position of peaceful resolution of conflict.
South Africa reiterates the obligation of all the parties to fully implement all their respective commitment other than meets agreement which provides the most promising roadmap for the peaceful settlement of current hostilities including in Eastern Ukraine, and to advance the course of peace and stability in the broader region.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 34 South Africa cannot be said to be taking sides on the conflict as this goes against its principles.
In addition, South Africa has good bilateral relations with both countries.

It would therefore be unwise to take a different position that could compromise these bilateral relations ...

[Interjections.]

...

Regarding South Africa’s position in Brics, it has been and is continuing to encourage all the parties to strengthen all the diplomatic efforts to avoid an escalation of tensions and work towards an inclusive sustainable and peaceful solution based on co-operation and dialogue.
In this regard, South Africa encourages all parties to approach dialogue with a spirit of compromise as I have indicated.

South Africa stands by its principled position of peaceful resolution of conflict.

Similarly, in paragraph 22 of Brics’ New Delhi Declaration issued on 9 September 2021, the Brics leaders expressed concern at the continuing conflict and violence in different parts of the world.
The Brics leaders reaffirmed their commitments to the principle of non- interference in the internal affairs of states and reiterated that all conflicts must be resolved by peaceful means and true political and diplomatic efforts in line with international law, in particular, the UN Charter.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 35 The Brics leaders also underscored the inadmissibility of the threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state or in any other manner inconsistence with the purpose and principles of the United Nations.

I thank you, House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.


Before I proceed, let me remind all our members on the virtual platform that the respect you can give to this hybrid sitting is by ensuring that you look at your gadget and mute immediately.

Please, we request you to do that, because anything you say or do is reflecting on the screens here and it is disturbing.

All members on virtual platform, please check your gadgets and mute yourselves.

Thank you.

The hon Hlengwa?


Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson.

Well, I think the horse has already bolted on a lot of things that the Deputy Minister has indicated and tensions have gone beyond de-escalation because Ukraine has been invaded by Russia as we speak right now, and the countries are at war.
Therefore, the question then becomes, “Does the Department of International Relations and Co-operation still stands by the statement that it issued last week?” Because judging by the response now there is an element of backtracking, particularly UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 36 in a very direct call to Russia to desist from aggression and the invasion and to pull out its troops and military out of Ukraine in order to create a conducive and enabling environment for the discussions that the Deputy Minister speaks about.
Secondly, the impact of the sanctions on Russia are most likely now to have a direct impact of South Africa through the Brics partnership.

We therefore want to know what contingency plans are in place to insulate the South African economy, but also being proactive in dealing with the sanctions.

Will South Africa join the international community in meting out sanctions against Russia?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Immediately you say secondly, you should know that you are against Rule 137(2).

You understand what I am saying.

Proceed, hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much hon House Chairperson.

I have indicated what will be our position as South Africa.
Well, it only depends on the interpretation of the member and there is nothing that he can quote we have now changed the position.

There is no change of any position UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 37 here, Chair, because we are continuing as a country, also calling for a peaceful resolution on conflicts.

That is our position and to do that we also request all the parties to go on dialogue.

So, that is our position, Chair.

Thank you.


Mr B S NKOSI: Hon Deputy Minister, given that the situation has escalated, and in line with our policy of peaceful engagements for the resolution of conflicts, what are the specific engagements between South Africa, Ukraine and Russia to resolve this conflict peacefully?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, Chairperson.
I just want to remind the hon member that there was a special session on Ukraine in the UN General Assembly, and South Africa has presented a paper in that and its position.

And we still stand by what we said in the special session and we hope that the two parties will really be in line with the UN Charter and also be in line with the resolution of the special session on Ukraine.

Thank you.

Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, House Chair.


We obviously welcome the Deputy Minister’s call for de-escalation and peace.

But our membership with Brics places us in a special position or UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 38 relationship with Russia.

And with the commitment of Brics which are articulated as being a respect for sovereignty, unity, independence and territorial integrity, nonaggression and equality.
We also know that our membership of Brics is intended to place our economy in a place where we participate in global economic co-operation and benefit from trade and investment.

Can the Deputy Minister advise us how our government proposes to use our membership of Brics and its commitment to this universal principle to ensure that our much needed economic growth and job creation project is not undermined.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House Chair.

I just want to remind the member that as members of Brics we are also affiliated in the United Nations.

So, in terms of this particular situation as it stands now, it needed to be resolved within the United Nations.
We have called upon the Security Council to use all the means they have in their disposal to make sure that they quell the situation between Russia and Ukraine.

So, there is no plan for the separate Brics because we are all members of the United Nations in this particular matter as it stands.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 39 IsiZulu: Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Ningenaphi nina.

English: I am being abused here, House Chair.

Can you protect me.
Can you protect me.

because you know ... IsiZulu: ... ngizovele ngithi amasela.

English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Kwankwa, you have one minute.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, but you must protect me, House Chair.

The issue here is that ... Minister, can you please stop sitting on the fence?

[Interjections.]

The issue here is clear.

From where we are sitting, there are global calls for president Vladimir Putin and member of his cabinet to be charged with war crimes.
What is SA’s position with respect to that one?

China, as a Brics member for an example, has expanded trade with Russia.

They have lifted restrictions on wheat imports.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 40 Are we going to do the same things since we are Brics members?

What are we going to do as a country?

We need a firm and clear position on this matter so that we know exactly where South Africa stands on this issue.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House Chair.

I just want to indicate that as South Africa we stress that peace is best built through diplomacy and dialogue within the framework of the institutions of global dialogue, especially the United Nations.

It is important for all nations to respect and uphold the principle of international law, including international humanitarian law and the provision of the UN Charter.
That is how I stand.

So, there is nothing that can make you say that we are standing on the fence here.

We are members of the United Nations and we have presented our position there and we have been supported by many countries in that.

So, whoever has called for whatever, we are not going by what other countries are saying, but we are going by what South Africa feels will be a better solution in this particular conflict.

Thank you very much, House Chair.


Question 7: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 41 The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

In terms of section 139 of the Firearms Control Act 60, 2000, an amnesty may be declared by the Minister of Police if the amnesty may result in the reduction of a number of illegally possessed firearms and it is in the public interest to do so.

The firearm amnesty is therefore a prerogative of the Minister when it is necessary.
Secondly, section 24 together with section 28 of the Firearms Control Act does not provide for an expired licence to be removed.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Is it hon Groenewald or is it you, hon Wessels?

Because, I can see your mic is still on and we can see you.

Hon Groenewald, it’s now your opportunity.

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Can I proceed?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Your member, hon Wessels was disturbing us.

He must mute his gadget.

Please proceed, Dr Groenewald.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 42 Dr P J GROENEWALD: Thank you Chair.

Hon Minister, we have great respect for you.

You only read from the piece of legislation.

I know that.

But the question was whether you will consider coming to Parliament and request for a further amnesty?

Last year, you gave an undertaking to say yes, you will do so.

Admitting that the COVID-19 situation hampered quite a lot of people to apply for amnesty.
My follow up question is this.

Will you, in considering such an amnesty allow again that people who must renew their firearm licences have an opportunity to do so?

And, in the light of all the theft of firearms at the police stations to allow them to keep their firearms with them in a safe place.

Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Chairperson.

There must be reasons for declaring the amnesty as the member says.
It could have been folly of me to say they will never be an amnesty again.

Indeed, there are few things to be considered.

Does it yield the wanted results of the reduction ...

[Inaudible.]

... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 43 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I’m sorry, hon Minister.

Can you just hold it?

You only spoke for 30 seconds, I will restore your minutes.

Hon Mbatha, please, this is the second time and you are not even listening to us.
You are busy with your own radio or your own television, TV.

That’s what we hear.

If you proceed, we will remove you from the platform.

Hon Minister, I am sorry for that.

Ms S GWARUBE: Excuse me, House Chair, we are getting reports from our members on the virtual platform that they are battling to hear the Ministers when they are using the roving mic.

Can information technology, IT, look into it and then perhaps for now, can they speak into this mic?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): They can’t hear with a loud mic like that?

Ms S GWARUBE: They are battling to hear on the virtual platform.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): It makes a lot of noise.

Oh!

I will allow the Ministers to speak while sitting UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 44 down because this thing is shorter?

Hon Minister, I give you permission to respond while seated.

Thank you.

IsiZulu: Qala phansi, Mphathiswa.


English: Can you please reset because we have disturbed him already?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: ...

Thank you very much hon Chairperson, I hope I am audible now.

As we have said, the issue of amnesty raised by hon Groenewald is a legislated issue.

He correctly said that I did speak with him.

Indeed, I said, there will be time where there will be amnesty again.

But we need to weight those thing.


We need to weight if the amnesty is going to yield the desired results?

That is the reduction of firearms.

That is the first one.

Secondly, the logistics of getting these firearms.

The Firearms Registry will have to work on them, the ballistic will have to work on them.
Because as these firearms are brought back we need to take them through the ballistics to check if they were not used to committing crime, and they have UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 45 not killed anyone.

We do not just take them and put them in SP 13 and in any form of store room.

Thirdly, he is asking if there can be a renewal of expired licence.

The law does not allow that.

The law says you will have to reapply for the firearm rather than renewal.
Unfortunately, we have put quite several of these amnesties.

Those people that have expired firearm licences do not come forward.

So, we will urge those that represented the people that have firearms including those firearms associations and organisations to encourage their members, if and when the amnesty comes to use that space to reapply for the issuing of licences and not to renewal.

Thank you.

Ms T M JOEMAT-PETTERSSON: Thank you very much hon, House Chair.
Minister, the licencing process and the amnesty process exist in order to achieve lawful position as you have said.

What would the plan B of the Minister and SA Police, SAPS, in dealing with the unlicensed firearms in this interim period while we are waiting for what happens in your decision if there is a possible new amnesty, so illegal firearms in the country is kept under control?

Thank you very much.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 46 The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, unfortunately, police officers are not lawmakers but they are law enforcers.

There is a law and even those that own firearms know the law.

That once your licence expires then your firearm becomes illegal.

And then if you have illegal firearm we will arrest you.
So, we are urging the firearm owners in South Africa to follow the process and renew your firearms licences while there is still time.

Even if your licence delays but if you have the receipt in your hand you will be regarded as the legal firearm owner until you get your licence.

But if you stay home and say you did have a licence and it expired then you don’t have one.

We will then confiscate those guns and also arrest you.

So, it is important that the members and South African citizens follow the law.
Thank you very much.

Mr A G WHITFIELD: Thank you very much, it has emerged as a fact that the consecutive amnesties have exposed the Central Firearm’s Registry as chaotic, unreliable and dysfunctional.

The processing of firearm licence applications, competency applications and amnesty applications is simple taking far too long to provide the administrative justice that firearm owners deserve.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 47 In terms of the age analysis of firearm related applications, a 130 000 applications are outstanding for more than 120days and 76 800 of these are amnesty applications.

Considering the fact that firearm owners are being prejudiced by the flaws in the act and the failure to adhere to the very basic elements of administrative justice further acknowledging that SAPS’ core function is policing and not paper work.
Will the Minister consider relieving the SAPS off the function of administering firearm licences by outsourcing this function to an independent entity supervised by the secretary of police?

The MINISTER OF POLICE: “Not Yet Uhuru” on this thing of outsourcing.

Chairperson, I fully agree with the delays of more than 90 to 200days, but as I have said that if you have a receipt then you are regarded as owning a legal firearm.

The problem is when the owners of firearm just don’t follow the law.
They stay home and not become part of the law abiding citizens in the Republic of South Africa.

I fully agree that the Firearm Registry could do better.

There are problems there of which we are working on fixing them, including looking at different ways.

What the hon member said UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 48 cannot be ruled out but we have not reached that level yet.

We are at the level where things are being corrected.
We are also calling on the members to urge South Africans to respect the law and say the law is not completely prejudicing them in terms of not taking on board the legality of firearms.

You go there on time and get the receipt and then you are able to respond on time.

That is what we are requesting.

Do call on the government to do better but also call on the South Africans to keep the law.

Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon House Chair.


Hon Minister, illegal obtained weapons are often used in criminal activities and are a scourge upon ... What mechanisms are in place to ensure that all firearms handed in to the South African Police Service Firearm Registry are disposed of in a safe and legal manner and cannot be illegally channelled to crime syndicate?

Please provide clear details of the process as well as the evidence that all these weapons are destroyed.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The hon member wants detailed evidence.

Hon Chairperson, besides the amnesty, we have operations.

If you have noticed few weeks ago, the unit that has done the job at Rosslyn, Dawn Park, and Midrand where in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 49 almost a month they collected more than 210 illegal firearms.

So, we do have these operations.

Most of these firearms are taken to the SPV13.


Indeed, there are weaknesses in the systems of keeping these firearms, starting in this province where a sitting colonel ...

[Inaudible.]

... selling 2000 illegal firearms out there.

Including what has happened in Norwood, where as we speak now 178 firearms have been sold by our own.

So, we are working on that with the administration and management to tie that thing up.
And also to take those people that are breaking the law out of the system and put them where they belong.

Periodically, we are destroying these firearms and unfortunately there are not too many places we are using to destroy these firearms.

There is one in Vereeniging, Isipingo in KwaZulu-Natal.

We try not to keep them for a very long time to avoid to temp criminals even among ourselves.

They are destroyed and removed out of the circulation in the communities.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Question 24: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 50 The MINISTER OF JUSICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Chairperson.
It is worth noting that much success has been derived from the existing specialised commercial crimes courts, S`CCC, model which allows for a close integration of the work between prosecutors and investigators and dedicated courts which can, once matters are enrolled, process matters quickly and effectively instead of matters having to wait for space on the open court roll.

I have approved the specialised commercial crimes courts project plan 2020.
The plan provided for two phase approach and establishing and enhancing existing specialised commercial crimes courts.

The first phase which entails the establishment of new specialised commercial crimes courts in the provides where there were none was scheduled for implementation during the 2929-21 financial year.
The second phase which entails the enhancement of the existing special commercial crimes courts in all other provinces was scheduled to commence in April 2021 to coincide with the beginning of the 2021-22 financial year.
Both the establishment and the enhancement of the specialised commercial crime courts are guided by the evaluation of the existing and envisaged caseloads as determined by the National Prosecuting Authority’s specialised commercial crimes unit and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 51 the Department of Justice and Constitutional development’s available resources.
Phase 1 was successfully implemented with the establishment of new specialised commercial crimes courts in Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape and North West during the 2020-21 financial year.

As we speak these courts are in operation.

Currently all provinces in the country have dedicated specialised commercial crimes courts.

Phase 2 was ready to be implemented in the 20o21-22 financial year.
The specialised commercial crimes courts enhancement phase saw additional specialised commercial crimes courts being established in Mthatha, East London and Pietermaritzburg as well as the enhancement of the existing specialised commercial crimes courts in Palm Ridge, Pretoria North and Durban.

The project plans were requested from the relevant regional specialised commercial crimes courts steering committees for consideration by the national steering committee.
The new specialised commercial crimes courts in East London and Mthatha were established and commenced operations on 06 April 2021.

They are in operation, hon members.

We are not still speaking about plans, but they are in existence.

The new specialised commercial crime court in Pietermaritzburg UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 52 commenced operations on 03 January 2022.
The enhancement and resourcing of the Palm Ridge and Pretoria North specialised commercial crimes courts is being implemented as we speak.

For the coming financial year, the national specialised commercial crimes courts steering committee will again request the regional steering committees to consider the need for new specialised commercial crimes courts in their regions.
These steering committees are composed of representatives of the National Prosecuting Authority, Legal Aid South Africa, members of the judiciary and officials of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development.
They are tasked to determine the need for additional specialised commercial crimes courts by considering the current and projected caseloads and to determine the resources both in terms of tools of trade and human resources needed to fully capacitate additional specialised commercial crimes courts.
Funds for the establishment and enhancement of the specialised commercial crimes courts were allocated by the National Treasury for three years – R40 million per year- with a slight escalation per year with the last three being 2022-23 financial year.
The recruitment of judicial officers, court officials and Legal Aid South Africa practitioners are costs that are carried from year to year at every new specialised commercial UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 53 crimes court established.

The establishing of the new specialised commercial crimes courts or enhancement of SCCCs is thus depended o the need and the availability of funds.
The department envisage there will be sufficient funds for three to four new specialised commercial crimes courts in the year 2022-23 financial year.

The department will continue to put these funds to their full use by enhancing the capacity of the specialised commercial crimes courts as government steps up its efforts to eradicate corruption both in the public and private sector.

Thank you.

Ms A RAMOLOBENG: Thanks, House Chair.


Thanks Minister for the response especially in giving us a brief about the specialised commercial crimes courts.

Minister, has an impact assessment been conducted on the implementation and operation of the specialised commercial crimes courts?

To put it differently, are these courts yielding their intended purpose and making a material difference?

Thank you, House Chair.

The MINISTER OF JUSICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Chairperson.
Indeed, there has been an impact assessment and it has proven that all cases that go through these courts have yielded high conviction rates because of the collaboration of the law enforcement agencies that take matters through these UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 54 courts and also because these courts have an outcome of collaboration and involvement and engagement by all stakeholders in terms of the needs and where they must be located, and what cases must be prioritised and how they must be handled.
As a result it has fast racked and expedited some of the long standing cases that are able to be handled and be expedited except the ones that obviously would be beyond the hands of the courts where obviously there would be postponements related to the issues of an accused being sick, legal representatives or sometimes judicial officers and so forth.
But the courts are having a huge impact and I do believe that they send a very strong message to community and society that the era of impunity is over through the convictions of those that are found to be corrupt and also for organised crime and criminal syndicates.

Thank you.

Mr W HORN: Thank you, House Chair.

Minister, congestion or backlogs in respect of the specialised commercial crime prosecution are, of course, not solely caused by the number of courts available.
Other factors such as the dedicated availability of the presiding officers, the dedicated availability of prosecutors with the necessary experience and expertise as well as the requirements that operational issues do not negatively impact, for example, court recording systems UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 55 that need to be in place and operational.
All these issues the department and the NPA under your leadership have failed to ensure over the last few years and are stuck realities.

This has resulted in a situation where the average number of hours during which our courts are sitting have been dwindling from one year to the next.

What measures will be put in place to ensure the full functionality of not only these new courts that are being rolled out, but also those that have been part of the establishment up to now?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF JUSICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you.

Indeed, as you will realised that it is not only the establishments of the courts that the resources have been put forward for, but also the enhancements of those courts.

The Pal Ridge one is an enhancement, the Pretoria North one is an enhancement and also the Durban one.

This is an acknowledgement of the challenges that these courts have faced.
These enhancements have helped those courts and are helping these courts to be able to handle the matters that are coming before them.

The issue of the court recording machines, as hon Horn is the member of the committee is aware that there has been an issue that seized the committee for almost the whole of last year UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 56 including the department itself.
As we speak now the matter has been resolved to enable the court recording machines across the country to do their jobs and not only in the specialised commercial courts, but in all courts which had the challenges of the court recording machines.

We are hopeful that we will be able to find a long-lasting and sustainable solution so that the work of the courts is not disrupted but they are able to function optimally.
This include the specialised commercial crimes courts where we expect that matters that will also come through those courts from the Zondo commission and other corruption related matters, are able to receive priority as per the announcement of the President during the state of the nation address.

We continue to monitor the challenges of the court recording machines and attend to it everywhere it arises.
But now that the contract that would enable them to be maintained and be kept in working condition is in place, we believe that the problem will be resolved and the long-lasting solution will be found.

Thank you.

Mrs Y N YAKO: Thank you very much, House Chair.

Minister, it does not matter how many courts the country may have.

But if we still have poor investigative and prosecutorial capacity UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 57 people will still get away with murder.
Today, despite the almost global condemnation of the corruption at Steinhoff, the NPA still has no plans of charging Markus Jooste and other corrupt white people.

The NPA is seemingly very lenient to crime committed by rich people such as Jooste.

What plans have you put in place to build the capacity to prosecute these sort of crimes?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF JUSICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon House Chairperson.
Again, the assertion that NPA is looking at colour to prosecute crimes is unfounded.

The National Prosecuting Authority is guided by the Constitution and the National Prosecuting Authority Act that they must prosecute without any fear, favour or prejudice to anyone.

You would have seen in the previous week or two where they have prosecuted the executives of Tongaat Hulett in the fraud case that relates to the financial statements of Tongaat Hulett.
It is a crime where those executives are whites in majority.

The National Prosecuting Authority did not look at their colour.

They looked at the crime that has been committed and prosecuted.

With regard to Steinhoff, they have updated the nation that there is still ongoing investigation which is a prosecutorial UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 58 investigation and is handled by the NPA.
Soon they will be able to update the country as to how far they are and what is happening.

We need to remind members here that even in the German jurisdictions they did not just wake up and arrest the people involved in the Steinhoff matter, but it took them about five years to finalise that complex sophisticated investigation.
You will have also seen from the national Budget from the National Treasury that the national Treasury has given an additional budget of about a billion rand to help the NPA in terms of its human resources.

Also, ourselves we are looking to help them with the various resources that they need to capacitate them to do their job.
From time to time we allow the NPA to use section 38 of the National Prosecuting Authority Act to be able to source the skills that they need to prosecute the crimes of corruption and of white collar crime that might be sophisticated where they need additional skills and resources.
From our perspective it does not matter who committed the crime, weather is black, coloured, Indian or white they must do their job in accordance with what the National Prosecuting Authority Act says and what the Constitution says - prosecute without fear, favour or prejudice.
The President has also said that there is nothing that stops the law enforcement agencies from doing their job UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 59 in line with the current reports that emerged from the Zondo commission of inquiry.

Thank you.

Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, hon House Chair.


I heard what the Minister said, but my question to the hon Minister is, could the Minister explain to the House considering all the extra measures that he mentioned to the House with the extra budget and the extra capacity that has been created by the department, what difference will it make seeing that the department has not up to now succeeded in conducting a proper court system and an investigating system?
We all know that the special investigating unit is already incapacitated and underfunded as it is because of the fact that the departments do not pay their bills.

The hon Minister should explain to the House; how will it be different this time around?

Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF JUSICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much.

The difference is that there is now experience in terms of capacitation, for example, the investigative directorate.
There is also a migration of a data centre from the Zondo commission which will enable and help all law enforcement agencies with the information that they need and also the capacitation in terms of the forensic skills, digital UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 60 skills and accounting forensic skills that are needed to deal with these forensic gaps and kinds of crimes that are complex and sometimes cross boarder and goes to multijurisdictions.
This is the kind of assistance and help that we continue to provide to them to enable them to get these kind of human resource and also financial resources from the National Treasury as I have said.

We do believe that with the appointment of the skilled personnel in the investigative directorate, ID, and also that the head of the ID will be appointed soon.

Also, all the heads of other provinces that are not incumbent by court for the National Prosecuting Authority will be appointed soon.
This will help to have much-needed guidance and leadership in most of the prosecutorial matters that need decisions and that also need guidance to some of the juniors that are coming within the NPA.

The continuation of the aspirant prosecutor programme have enabled the NPA to grow their own team from within.
It enables them to bring fresh blood and fresh mind and also to reposition the National Prosecuting Authority again in the life of legal practitioners in the country as an employer of choice, as a pride of the nation and as anyone who would want UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 61 to serve the rule of law to stand there and be a prosecutor of the public.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Question 49: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House Chair.

Our response to the question of the hon member Chetty is that we have given loan to the Republic of Cuba in 2018, which is R63 million with the interests accrued of R1,366 million and that loan has been fully paid.
The second loan was granted last year 2021, which is R84,6 million with the interests accrued of R1,7 million and the first instalment of R9,9 million was paid in December 2021.

Thank you, House Chair.

Mr M CHETTY: Deputy Minister, clearly you are standing in for Minister Pandor today because she has been reprimanded for a comment regarding Russia invasion of Ukraine.

Deputy Minister, further to these funds your department ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

... wisdom so it is fit to donate and it donated R50 million to Cuba for food security as the Deputy Minister ...

[Inaudible.]

... Was this donation in lieu of the fact that we still owe Cuba for the redacted useless vaccines we purchased.

Are you aware that the hungry in Cuba has stabilised at 2,5% since UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 62 2002, while South Africa is sitting at 12,9%.

This is a total misallocation and misdirection of funding.
Deputy Minister, this is the African Renaissance fund and not the African National Congress cookie jar.

In view of this, are you willing to redirect this R50 million funding to assist with food security here at home as charity leaders begin at home?

If not, why not?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House Chair.

Well, the hon member has asked about the loans that we’ve granted the Republic of Cuba.
He never asked us about any donations, that’s a new question according to me.

He has got a full right to write a question about how much donation we’ve given to the Republic of Cuba.

Therefore, as it stands he speaks about a R50 million which was announced today in Cuba which I’m sitting here in South Africa and I never heard that announcement, but I will follow it up because as we work as the Ministry we have got our responsibilities differently.
Therefore, now I will check what is it that the hon member or the hon Deputy Minister has announced.

Up to so far I wasn’t even aware that there is that announcement because that is not part of my responsibility for that country.

Thank you very much, hon House Chair.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 63 Ms B SWARTS: Thank you, House Chair.
Hon Deputy Minister, the practice and culture of states providing support to other states including financial assistance in the form of loans to another country or countries is normal practice in diplomacy.

Can the Deputy Minister share with the House the kinds of support that our country received and continues to receive from other countries including from Cuba?

Thank you, House Chair.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House Chair.

The hon member is correct that it is a normal practice that to give loans because these are loans that are paid back.

However, definitely there’s a lot that we are benefiting from Cuba since 1996.
Then I think the hon members are aware that we’ve received 96 Cuban doctors that were sent to us in line with our South Africa-Cuba relations which serves as an exemplary model for South-South co-operation with a numerous governments and government agreements governing the co- operation in the areas of training, health services, human settlement, technical exchange, science and technology, public works technical assistance, co-operation on water resource UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 64 management and water supply and on professional services in the field of basic education.
I want to remind members that recently in April 2020, there was medical brigades that was sent to South Africa for 12 months, 217 brigades and medical practitioners to come and help us on the issues of coronavirus disease, Covid, response.

Therefore, those are the doctors that have got expertise from Cuba.

Therefore, there’s a lot that we are receiving from Cuba.

We also have got 19 Cuban curriculum specialists deployed here in South Africa in the Department of Basic Education.
They are throughout the country: Gauteng, Free State and Eastern Cape.

They’re helping our teachers and our students on issues of mathematics and science and technology.

We also have got an agreement and we have received 25 Cuban engineers who are helping us on water and sanitation in South Africa, and they are throughout the provinces.
I think, hon members, all of them are aware that because of the contribution of the Cuban doctors and Cuban technical people that came to South Africa, we are able to render services that the hon member is saying of the R50 million that will disadvantage the service delivery in South Africa.

However, we are getting a lot from Cuba, in particular, in terms of our co-operation with them.

Thank you very much, House Chair.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 65 Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you very much, House Chair.

I will take the question, it’s Mkhaliphi.

Deputy Minister, taking into account the history the country has with Cuba and the great sacrifices Cuba has made for our freedom, what forms of tangible support have you made available to Cuba over the years?
Why have you not use whatever diplomatic ways you have to persuade the United States, US, to leave the evil economic embargo it placed on Cuba because of ideological reasons?

Thank you, House Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Well, as I have indicated that there is a lot that we are interacting with, with Cuba, and there’s lots of help and even pre-democracy Cuba has been on our side.
However, the issue between Cuba and America are issues of two countries, but the discussions amongst them is the discussion that belongs to them.

However, our support to Cuba really is not that we want to be enemy of America, but we are supporting Cuba because of the relation that we have which is called South-South relations that we have with Cuba.

Thank you very much, House Chair.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 66 Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, House Chair.
Hon House Chair, after all that Cuba has done for South Africa I would like to know if the Minister will support that the loan be written off so that it shows our genuine appreciation for what Cuba did and that led to our liberations.

Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO- OPERATION (Ms K C Mashego-Dlamini): Thank you very much, hon House Chair.

Well, loans are governed by our financial legislation, hon member.
Therefore, if it is loan then that’s the agreement that we have with Cuba and have exercised a good commitment on the previous loan that we have given.

Therefore, we hope that they’ve got capacity to pay back the loan.

They never ask for anything than the loan.

Therefore, if ever there’s any gesture that you can do to Cuba, I think the country will decide on whatever gesture that you can give to Cuba.

Of course, they have helped us.

Thank you very much, House Chair.


Question 3: The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House Chairperson, firstly, I want to correct what I said earlier on and state that the Head of the Investigating Directorate, ID UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 67 has now been appointed by His Excellency the President.

So, the capacity will be enhanced.


Enhancing the capacity and skills of the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA to effectively prosecute corruption is a national priority.

The nature and extent of alleged corruption described in the Zondo Commission Report highlights the need for bold and innovative approaches to enhancing the capacity and skills of the criminal justice entities including the NPA.

These are complex crimes that require sophisticated response.
In this regard, the NPA was allocated additional budget of R1,1 billion over the 2022 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF period as follows: in 2022-23, the allocation is R422,7 million; 2023-24, the allocation is R327 million; and 2024-25, the allocation is R342 million.
Sixty-eight per cent of the allocation will be used to enhance the capacity of the NPA through additional staffing in the following units: The National Prosecutions Service, NPS, 700 aspirant prosecutors; the Asset Forfeiture Unit, AFU, 17 senior state advocates; Office for Witness Protection, OWP, 12 protectors; and the ID, 91 investigators and prosecutors.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 68 Despite this additional funding support, the fiscus will never have enough funds to meet the demand on the prosecutors in light of the findings of the Zondo Commission.

The NPA has identified the need for an additional R1,2 billion in the 2023 MTEF period.

The NPA is engaging the National Treasury to explore options on how to appropriately utilise private donor funding and in-kind support without undermining its independence.
The NPA will ensure accurate and transparent donation- reporting and will establish donor-funding oversight committee as a further governance structure.

The National Treasury and the Director-General, DG of the Department of Justice are working closely with the NPA to establish the said oversight committee.

All cash donations will be managed through the RDP funds through the National Treasury processes.

The RDP funds can be used to support any request from the broader criminal justice system.
In addition to more skills and capacity, we will be providing the required tools of trade needed to deliver on their important mandate critical to the success of the strategy to address corruption and in the appointment of suitable senior UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 69 counsel to support the prosecution in high-level complex matters.
There has also been a steep increase in the need for expanded witness protection due to the threatening or sometimes killing of whistle-blowers.

The President has also appointed Adv N Somaru as the Director of Public Prosecutions in the Free State, Bloemfontein; Adv M R Makhari-Sekhaolelo as the Director of Public Prosecutions in North West; Adv N Bell as the Director of Public Prosecutions in the Western Cape division.
This is a clear commitment and demonstration of this government in capacitating the National Prosecuting Authority and giving it the relevant support and skills to do its job without any fear, favour or prejudice.

Thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Hon Minister, arising from your response, it’s shocking that only R106,4 million was allocated to the Investigating Directorate within the NPA during the current financial year.
We, as the ACDP welcome the additional funding considering that the Zondo Commission made scathing comments that the NPA’s failure to respond adequately or at all to the challenges of state capture corruption points to a fundamental UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 70 failure of a sovereign state function.
So, we appreciate that very serious steps are being taken to enhance the capabilities of the NPA and the Investigating Directorate, and we support the appointment of the new Head of the Investigating Directorate.

Thank you for correcting yourself in that regard.

However, hon Minister, you indicated that the NPA still indicated a shortage of R1,1 billion.

So, clearly, given the large number of cases referred to it by the Zondo Commission, they will not have the capacity to deal with all the matters.
Will the hon Minister support those requests for additional funding from National Treasury to ensure that successful investigations and prosecutions, together with the private sector, are instituted in terms of the Zondo Commission recommendations?

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much for those words, hon Swart.

We always gain a lot of insight from your inputs.


And as you have said, you have raised this issue in the previous financial year, hence this response to capacitate the ID and all the relevant institutions.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 71 Whilst the capacitation has been on a very large scale, as you have said, but there is still a need, as I have said earlier, for more funding.
Hence, we are exploring the issue of the RDP Fund which is there in government in a form of the current Solidarity Fund that we have used during the crisis of Covid.

It is clear that we may need a fund of that nature.
Hence, we are looking at the RDP Fund with the National Treasury because of the volume of work that will definitely go to all the law enforcement agencies and not only the NPA because, as you are aware, it’s almost like a relay effect from an investigation by the police or the SIU, to the NPA and the justice system, the courts and later the correctional service.

So, that whole value chain needs to be capacitated to be able to respond adequately to this.
I can assure you that we are exploring all the avenues with the National Treasury.

We are also cautious because, with all the avenues that we need to explore in terms of the RDP Fund and or any kind of donor funding that may end up coming into the space, we need to ensure that the independence of the NPA which is sacrosanct is or may never be compromised.

Whatever happens must still be within what the Constitution allows in terms of the independence of the NPA and the NPA Act.
Hence, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 72 this task becomes a bit complex when engaging with the National Treasury, the Department of Justice and also the NPA itself.

One of the mechanisms, as I have said, is to look into some kind of an oversight committee which will ensure that whatever might happen, it is still in line with Act so that we don’t have fall-backs and all the matters are handled properly including the finances that are intended to help the NPA.
You can rest assured that, the fact that we have engaged with the National Treasury to have additional funding is a clear political commitment from this government that, we want to support the work of the NPA, the ID in particular, and also all the law enforcement agencies to be able to follow through and implement all the recommendations of the Zondo Commission of Enquiry.

We will continue to do so.

Thank you.

Ms N H MASEKO-JELE: Minister, thank you very much.


You have already answered my question partly.

Indeed, the Zondo Report will present an opportunity to many aspirant prosecutors and young legal practitioners who have joined the legal profession.

So, my question to you, Minister, is: Has the department considered ways and means of empowering these young UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 73 practitioners in the implementation of the Report?

Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes, we have.

Hence, there is aspirant prosecutor training programme and there’s also continuous trial advocacy within the NPA, and sometimes using the Justice College to continue to empower these prosecutors who are coming up within the ranks of the NPA.

But also, an on-job training of matching the young and skilled with experienced prosecutors.
We have also emphasised to the NPA and the State Attorney that, where they use section 38 or even if it’s internal within the NPA, the parties involved in any matter must reflect the demographics and diversity of our country.

The previously-disadvantaged individuals and in particular, black practitioners, must also be given a fair opportunity to handle very complex and forensic matters so that we are able to also empower black practitioners in this space to gain skills and exposure.
The mixture and diversity can always enhance the work of any law enforcement agency where there are skills coming from different backgrounds and demographics.

Thank you.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 74 Mr W HORN: Minister, given your admission, which is of course quite correct, that the fiscus will never be in a position to supply the funds needed to deal with the number of cases which will come from specifically the Zondo Commission; and given the fact that the Investigating Directorate has a lifespan of only two years left; and your response to the previous question that, from time to time, section 38 may be employed by the NPA to source critical expert skills, would you not agree that the time has come to allow, in line with the donor fund, for section 38 to be employed in order to really address prosecutions coming from the Zondo Commission?
Thank you, House Chair.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Indeed, as we speak now, there are prosecutors that I have approved as the Minister in terms of section 38, who are currently doing the work for the ID or for the NPA.

Hon members would have seen some of the senior practitioners who are practising in their own right handling matters.

Some of the matters have been on television for the past two or three weeks.
There have been many Senior Counsels who have, as we speak, been working and helping the work of the ID on these complex matters and in some aspects of the NPA.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 75 From time to time when the NPA does come to us, where funds are available and also confirmed by the National Treasury, we approve the section 38 skills as per what the Horn says.

We continue to do so and help them to be able to acquire these skills.
The issue that he has also said, although not as a question, about the lifespan of the ID which will expire in the next two years, indeed, that is also an issue we are currently considering because it is clear that these matters will go beyond two years.

So, we will need a structure that is going to evolve organically into a permanent structure to handle these matters as we move forward, including some of the corruption matters.
We are also looking at what has come as a recommendation from the Zondo Commission in terms of procurement corruption institution.

So, we are looking at all those factors to see what then should be the permanent structure that must handle all these matters going forward.
It’s something at the top of our minds and we intend that, by the time the President comes to Parliament to report on the recommendations of the Zondo Commission, he also brings the recommendation as to what we are going to do with the permanent structure in this regard.

Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 76 Mrs Y N YAKO: Mr Lamola, the extent of crime identified by the State Capture Commission is wide and debilitating.
That notwithstanding, it is possible to agree that it is only the tip of the iceberg; and that our country is still being mopped dry even today by criminal networks that go very high in our government.

How will you ensure that the NPA does not lose sight of criminal networks currently active in the country, capturing the state and laying our public resources to waste?

Thank you, House Chair.


The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Although it is kind of a vague question, I’ll try to respond ...

[Interjections.]

Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Please, answer the question!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi, please don’t do that!

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Indeed, it is a vague question but I’ll make an attempt to respond.
This government is committed to deal with PPE corruption that emanated during the Covid-19 situation and I have reported here that all the courts that President said we were going to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 77 establish, have been established.

People in very senior and high ranks have appeared in those courts.
The Special Investigating Unit and also the Special Tribunal have taken monies to the tune of millions of rand back into the fiscus, which is a clear commitment from this government that there must be no corruption that goes unnoticed, unpunished and unattended to.

So, all the issue that come to the fore are attended to without any fear or delay.
Hence, you would remember that all the procurement issues that emanated from the PPE scandal were also put also put into the National Treasury website where anyone could scrutinise who did what and how did it happen.

It was the first of its kind and at the highest level of transparency.

So, there is no one who is hiding anything from the government that is led by President Ramaphosa.

He wants to see transparency.

He wants to see people of South Africa getting value for their money.
If the money is meant to build a bridge, that money must build the bridge.

If money is intended to build a school, that money must build the school.

That is what the President wants us to do.

He also emphasised that through the accounting UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 78 officers in various departments and also the Auditor-General, AG, we must work more on preventative measures.
Preventative measures must be put in place so that there’s no money stolen because to deal with the prosecution and get back the money is more expensive than prevention.

So, the focus has also been emphasised that there must be preventative measures and prevention of corruption so that it does not happen.

People must get value for their money.

Where it has happened, it must be punished.

Thank you, House Chairperson.


Question 27: The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: House Chair, we can confirm that all the Heberon alpha-2b drugs that were stored at the South African Military Health Services depot was returned to Cuba on 22 January 2022.

We further confirm that all the vials were delivered and accepted by the Cuban officials.

We have no report that any of the vials expired in our hands or on arrival in Cuba.
This consignment left together with the routine flight transporting the Cuban specialists and technicians on their annual vacation to Cuba.

On their way back, the same flight brought back the South African students for their break at UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 79 home.

The use of this routine and scheduled flight saved the department the cost of chartering a special flight to Cuba.

I was also asked how much it costs.


That flight that was scheduled to take the Cubans home costs R11,5 million.

On the second question, the vials, we will remember, were returned because the ministerial task team as well as the Auditor-General recommended that we must return it.

We must also note that, at the same time, the Cuban embassy had sent a note verbally that they urgently needed 500 000 for their own use for their citizens.
Lastly, we still engage with the Cuban government on this transaction, because you will remember that we received more vials than what we had paid for.

When that is worked out, we will come back to the House and to the members to say whether we still owe any or not and how much.

At this moment, this is as far as I can go.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr V C XABA: House Chair, Minister, given the extent to which the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, repatriated the drug, as per the recommendation of the ministerial task team, did the events leading to the repatriation of the drug, including the repatriation of the drugs damage the country-to- UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 80 country relations, and has the Minister conceded putting in place a plan to repair the relations?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: We have indeed considered ways to continue with the cordial relations between Cuba and South Africa.

We will remember that, in fact, Cuba did not offer us the drugs, but the South African Medical Health Services approached using the provision that a Chief of the SANDF can and must protect the force.
Given the fact that this particular inclusion of the provisions for the Chief of the SANDF has never been tested before in this country, I think, it is something that we must explore.

Using that provision, the SANDF then approached the Department of Health and the South African Health Products Regulatory Authority, Sapra, to facilitate.
We also know that the relationship must indeed be cured because when SAPRA gave the SANDF permission to take 10 vials out of that consignment for voluntary testing, they took those 10 vials and gave it to a soldier who was very sick with Covid-19 and who could have died.

He took a risk and that man is walking around.


So, the drug and the reason we need to work on curing this relationship is important, because, indeed, the drug was not UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 81 useless.

We do not know the extent of how useful this would have been had the processes within South Africa not been too convoluted in terms of the request to Sapra and the Department of Health and had all of these been done.
And I am not speaking on behalf of the SANDF and I am not casting aspersions here.

But, if you follow the timelines when the request was made and when the responses were made, we would then have been able to say to hon Chetty, indeed, the drug is useless.

However, at his point, hon Chetty, we cannot say that the Heberon is useless.

As South Africa, we just don’t know, because that drug was not given the chance to go through the tests within this country.
So, yes, we are looking at ways, so that, in the future, we do not have an issue that when anything that comes from the Western countries, it is not rejected, simply because it comes from those who were with us in the trenches.

Thank you.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Chair, Minister, the smuggling of the mentioned Cuban drug with more than R240 million is embarrassing and wasteful beyond imagination.
The findings by the AG and SAPRA corroborate the fraud and transgressions by the SANDF of every conceivable medicine import law and regulation.

Last year, you stated the heads must roll and that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 82 those responsible must be held accountable, based on the relevant legal transgressions.

So far, nothing has happened.


Minister, will you commit yourself today again that whoever was complicit and part of the illegal and fraudulent decisions and activities, irrespective, if they are the current or the previous military command council members and if prima facie evidence exist, even your predecessor, will be held accountable and charged accordingly, or will the politically connected enjoy impunity?

Thank you.
Thank you.

Afrikaans: Die MINISTER VAN VERDEDIGING EN MILITêRE VETERANE: Mnr Marais, ek dink u is voorbarig, ... English: ... because there is a question that deals with that, but I will respond right now.

Yes, indeed, I said that heads will roll.

When I respond later, I will reassert that those who were responsible, will face the disciplinary measures within the department.
However, I am also saying that had the process been fair and timeous, we might not have been where we are today, where we have to take the members of the SANDF, who, in their own UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 83 thinking, were panicking and were trying to protect their troops into this.

As to whether it was smuggled, that is where the disciplinary code, DC, is going because then we accept that they should have applied to bring the drug in.
So, no, we are not going to protect anybody.

I don’t know what happened there.

That report is pointing us as to who must be brought in front of the DCs, whether they are in the DOD, in the military or whether they are civilians or in any other department.

We are going after that.

So, nobody will be spared, simply because they are privileged.

Nobody is privileged.

We are saying that maybe, just maybe, sometimes, this country must not just respect Western countries, it must respect any other country ...
[Applause.]

[Inaudible.]

Mr W T I MAFANYA: Hon Chair, hon Minister, we have been seized of this matter for quite a long time and we all agreed that this was illegally done.

We need to know who gave the authorisation that those drugs should be imported into the country.

As the Minister says, she is seized of the matter.


We also want to know who gave authorisation for the drug being UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 84 taken into the country illegally, and what the Minister is going to do about it.

Partly, the Minister has answered that, but I would like to get further clarity on that.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Chair, yes, indeed, this matter has dragged and that was because we were waiting for the ministerial task team to finish their investigation.

You will also remember that, when I first came in, a draft report was given and we now have that report.

That report will take members into DCs and that report also says that we need to follow up on people other than just those who were involved.
I cannot name people here right now, because I did not come here with a list of names of all implicated, but I can assure you that nobody who did anything that was not properly and timeously authorised will be left out.

I beg the House’s indulgence to get time to process those names and whatever before I can publicise it.

Thank you.

IsiZulu: Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, Mhlonishwa usuyibeke yacaca le nto.
Umbuzo wami nje usuzoba mfushane UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 85 ngoba kuyacaca ukuthi le mithi yalethwa la kugwenywe inhlangano eqondene nokubhekela ukungeniswa kwemithi yeZempilo ngaphakathi ezweni.

Mhlawumbe umuntu angabuza: Kwakungani ukuthi uphume ngemuva lo muthi ubusubonakala ngaphakathi bese bekwazi ukugxeka laba ababhekele inhlangano i-South African Health Products Regulation Authority bayigweme ukuthi ingene?

Ngiyathokoza.
Ngiyathokoza.

English: The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, I did not get the last part properly.

IsiZulu: Ukuthi ingene kanjani, ngiyacela ... English: ... indulgence, just so that I respond accordingly.

Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Chair, the fact is that this medicine was brought in by passing the authority, which is responsible for the approval of any medication that comes into South Africa.

The question is as simple as that: Why were they brought in behind the authorities?
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 86 The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon House Chair, that is exactly the basis of the case why there was not patients to get the authorisation and who had given that authority.

That is what the disciplinary action will be address.

That is why I was asking the House to indulge, so that I don’t blather out people’s names without taking proper legal advice on that.
However, that DC is just centred on that particular case, on the illegal bringing-in of the drug, because had the processes been followed, we might have had Sapra saying that it is not good or that it is good, and if it is good, to go ahead and procure.

And we might not have been here.

Thank you.

Question 1: The MINISTER OF POLICE: I hope my permission of talking while sitting still stands.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): It still stands, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you.


in terms of section 64E of the South African Police Service Act, Act No.68 of 1995, the functions of a municipal police service are; traffic policing; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 87 the policing of municipal by-laws and regulations that are the responsibility of the relevant municipality and the prevention of crime.
And a municipal police service does not have a legislative mandate to conduct a criminal investigation or to gather intelligence information.

Thank you.

Mr B N HERRON: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you, Minister, for the answer.
And I think the answer is clear and always has been, Minister, that a unit that is not established within a municipal police service as both the City of Cape Town and the Western Cape MEC or former MEC - he was fired yesterday – claims this unit is not part of the municipal police service but it is gathering crime intelligence.

It is engaging with foreign police services, for example, the United States, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI.

It is engaging with Interpol.


It is doing profiles on notorious organised criminals in the Western Cape and Cape Town, where they are profiling these individuals in a city where organised crime is increasingly a problem.

And, Minister, we know that organised crime relies on connections between gangsters and criminal networks and police units and rogue police officers.
So where we have a highly organised crime prevalence in our province and our city, we UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 88 have a rogue police unit acting parallel to the police service or the Hawks, like some sort of third force conducting criminal investigations that it has no mandate to do, and engaging with the FBI and Interpol.
So, Minister, how are we to crackdown on organised crime when the head of this unit is currently being prosecuted for exactly that, tampering with police dockets in order to hide evidence to prevent prosecutions from taking place when he was a police officer in Witbank?

We have, in Cape Town, a rogue police unit that could be aiding and abetting crime in this province and this city.

And it is going, carrying on unattended.


So, Minister, what are you going to do to shut this unit down or make this unit a municipal police service that is accountable, at least, to the MEC for Community Safety and this Parliament?

Thank you, Minister.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Eh!

Ja-neh!

Chairperson, there’s no doubt that some elements of the government either provincial or local have been constitutional delinquents in the Western Cape.

No doubt about it.

They've been constitutional delinquents.


But we have a responsibility for integrated governance.

As you have said, hon member, one has gone through UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 89 this.

We have decided to take an easy way, a soft landing way.

The Minister of Police, with the management of the police, we have met with the premier of this province and the mayor of this city to say, but this can’t be.

By the way, intelligence work is highly regulated.


There are three entities that are allowed by the Constitution to do that.

If there is any deviation from those three which are the police, defence ... and it is written that only the President can do that deviation and appoint a person.

No premier, no mayor, no nobody can do that.

So we have met.

There are ways of increasing the capacity of the city which we will welcome.
But the City of Cape Town, together with the province, they've put R1 billion extra by bypassing the legal structures.

For instance, if they've taken this law enforcement and all these people and put them in the metro police, which falls under all laws, like the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, like the Secretariat, like Gauteng, Durban, Tshwane and Ekurhuleni.
But they have decided to bypass that and do they have something that they call the Safety and Security Investigation Unit, SSIU.

I only know one, the Special Investigative Unit, SIU.

They have theirs.

They have intelligence collection.

That unit you talked about is a unit UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 90 of 59, headed by a person who himself is getting arrested and disappearing in court.
So you can’t have a special unit that has all illegal powers headed by a person who himself is supposed to be appearing in court and all that.

But, as I have said, the premier, the Minister of Police and the mayor have agreed that our legal departments, led by advocate Chamane on my side, will come together and brief us in the shortest possible time to say, these things are illegal, stop them.

Should they not stop them, we will take it from there.
But we didn't want to use the hammer on this one although I understand there is a lot of illegality.

We didn't want to use the hammer.

We have used this soft approach.

We hope everybody will be part of it and it will be resolved peacefully and amicably.

That is the answer.

Thanks.

Mr A M SEABI: Thank you chair and thank you, hon Minister, and let me acknowledge your answer.

Minister, having heard what you have said as an answer to the question.
What is your view or attitude towards municipalities having, as one of their functions, the gathering of intelligence, and whether such a function at the municipal level is in the interest of the Republic of South Africa?

Thank you, Chair.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 91 The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, partially that has been answered.
There is only one municipal police that has grabbed that capacity for itself beyond the Constitution, it is the Western Cape, it is Cape Town only.

And there are other things that, as I've said, they could have done things in a proper way like the Constitution and all that says.

For instance, metro police, in this city, there are only 694 but in the so- called law enforcement, there are 2 017.

So, yes, they are bypassing the law.

For instance, law enforcement does not fall under the Ipid.
So they have no structure that they fall under to be able to ...

[Interjections.]

... No, there is no structure.

That's why, when a member of the law enforcement here gunned down a member of the SA Police Service, we had a problem.

They gunned down a member of the SA Police Service these law enforcers here.

And we had to run around like headless chickens trying to find out which structure that will ...

Thank God those have been found guilty.


But not only that, they, again, just repeated this a few weeks ago.

They have gunned down another person on the street.

So they tell you that are rookies and that is how they behave.

That's why we're calling on both the province and the municipality here to fall within the law and pursue these things.
We do agree, put money and let’s together to reduce the crime and all that, but you UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 92 are not going to reduce crime and all that but you are not going to reduce crime by breaking the law.

Thanks.
Thanks.

Maj Gen O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, you know, it is quite obvious that the hon Herron has got a lot of information and hopefully between him as a responsible citizen, let alone a Member of Parliament and the Minister, they are going to do the right thing.

It is clear that the hon Mr Herron and his GOOD party do not want the DA to succeed in the Western Cape.

Now, in terms of section 64E (c)of the Police Act, the prevention of crime is also one of the functions of municipal police service.
Now, Minister, would you agree that effective crime prevention inevitably necessitates a certain degree of crime intelligence gathering and investigation of criminal cases, especially in our country where the national police service is failing dismally?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chairperson, this question is even worse because it comes from a former police officer.
It comes from a former police officer that is supposed to understand and uphold the law which he should have learned and read his Constitution as to how these things are there.

He was not just a police officer he was a general and he should UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 93 understand.

But I am not here to correct the general, a general that was crooked himself.

And he knows what he left.

He knows what he left all the way and all that kind of stuff.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

So I will just end there.

Mr D BERGMAN: Chairperson, on a point of order: The Minister has just cast an aspersion on one of our members.

He knows the right procedure.

[Interjections.]

He said that a ...

[Interjections.]

... let everybody settle.

I’m not going to advertise what he said.

[Laughter.]

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member.

Hon Minister, could you please withdraw that?

I heard that myself, so that we can continue.


The MINISTER OF POLICE: When I am done, by the way, this member that is talking was a member of the supply chain management and he left too many police stations not built.

He was moving all the ...

[Inaudible.]

... trying to find ...

[Interjections.]

...

[Inaudible.]

... Maj Gen O S TERBLANCHE: You have built none at the moment.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 94 The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... and fix things there.
Thank you very much, Chair.

Mr H A SHEMBENI: Chair, yeah, I am partially answered by the Minister.

But according to section 205, 206 and 207 of the Constitution makes it clear that policing is a national competence and that no policing function should happen outside of these constitutional prescripts.

While the municipalities are allowed to have their so-called law enforcement, this must never rival the work of the SA Police Service, SAPS.
The City of Cape Town has been attempting to federalise policing for a while.

Why have you allowed this to happen?

What risks are there for a municipality as ideologically regressive as the City of Cape town is to have their own mini police rivalling the SAPS, Minister?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chairperson, not only that, they are causing trouble.
For instance, there are many places where the SA Police Service members come after they've shot people, especially these law enforcers that are much bigger than the metro who are supposed to be legal.

They are not used for crime prevention in the African areas.

They are used to push people ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 95 IsiZulu: ... babakhiphe lapha, babakhiphe ... English: ... and all of that.

That is their thing.


In several places where they go and start trouble, by the time the SA Police Service who are trained as the Public Order Police, POP, to deal with the people on the ground, they come too late when the trouble has come.

You know what happened to that naked man that was taken and paraded naked.

That was not the police.

Those were the very same law enforcers who tell you that they have no human understanding.

There's no human respect.

This is the call we are making.


Let us sit down and correct these things otherwise, we're not going to have the Republic of the Western Cape here where they are doing things that they're not supposed to.

Maybe you are correct, hon Shembeni.

[Applause.]

The members here must help this province by reading sections 205, 206 and 207, they will understand what the Constitution is saying.

As I said at the start, they are constitutional delinquents when it comes to this one.

Thanks.
Thanks.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 96 Ms S GWARUBE: House Chairperson, I have a point of order.

You had made a ruling about two minutes ago where you asked the hon Minister to withdraw his aspersions that he had cast on a hon member.

He did not do so.

And he knows that the correct procedure is to bring in a substantive motion, which he has not done.

So please could I ask that that be enforced?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr L M D Ntombela): I will make a follow up on that, hon member, because I've already passed that.

But I'll make a follow up on that so that the appropriate action is taken and followed.

Thank you very much.

Question 32: The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the answer is not very short but not too long either.

There has been a recent spark in multiple murders in the Kwazulu-Natal Province.
The SA Police Service Provincial Commissioner in KwaZulu-Natal, has established a task team to deal with investigation of the multiple murders The task team is based at KwaZulu-Natal SA Police Service Provincial Office and is led by the senior officer.

All the multiple murder cases dockets have been centralised to the office of the provincial commissioner for investigation and monitoring.
The investigating team leader presents progress on the investigations to the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Commissioner on the monthly basis.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 97 A total of 189 suspects have been arrested since April 2021, and several firearms were also recovered during this period.

Bail is opposed with regards to all the arrested suspects.
All the ceased firearms are sent to the SA Police Service, SAPS Forensic Science Laboratory Ballistic Section for testing and linkages to the crimes.

The KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Commissioner is closely monitoring progress made in the investigation.

The following preventative measures have been implemented by the SAPS to ensure the safety of the communities and preventing KwaZulu-Natal from becoming a blood field where the people die in numbers.
The crime trend analysis and the crime pattern analysis are analysed to identify hotspot areas.

Hotspots are patrolled by means of high visibility blue light patrol, stop and search operations are conducted to retrieve weapons of choice and arrest offenders.

Cordon and search operations are conducted in problematic areas, eg hostels and other hotspots areas.

Informers are utilised to assist in defined criminal groups.

Crime prevention operations are intensified in KwaZulu-Natal Province.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 98 A Drug and Firearm Task Team was established to focus on specific crimes.

Crime intelligence information is operationalised.

Awareness campaigns are held to educate communities.

Multidisciplinary operations are conducted.

The National Liquor Act is implemented to identify and close illegal shebeens.

Partnerships with private security companies have been enhanced.
Community policing forum structures are enhanced at the district and police stations level.

Sector policing is effectively monitored.

School safety patrols are conducted during the peak times.

School safety programs are conducted when the schools are operational.

The investigation of gender-based violence and femicide crimes is prioritised with a special team called ...

[Inaudible.]

Thank you very much Chair.


Ms L N MOSS: Thank you very much Minister for your comprehensive reply, it is very informative.

For those who don't understand it, I hope you took notes when the Minister was responding to my question, because it is also for your constituencies, you can assist your constituencies.

Now, I want to do a follow up on the implementation of the preventative measures mentioned in part B.

What has been the situation on these measures’ ways to bring control?

Thank you.
Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 99 The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson for some reason we have detected the increase of the abuse of drugs in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

The violence has increased in three spheres: One is political killings that everybody knows about.

Secondly, it is these mass killings that are based on criminality, mostly drugs and illegal firearms.
Thirdly, it is what happened in July where there were racial killings around the place called Phoenix.

We have formulated special teams to respond on that one.

The political killings led by General Khumalo.

This one of drugs, led by Colonel Ngcobo.

The Phoenix and surrounding racial killings led by Brigadier Cele.

All of them they have done a very good work.

One good work on the prevention is that they have arrested a lot of perpetrators.
As you see this 187 is only for those people that are linked in drugs and illegal firearms, and then the 301 on the political killings have been arrested in the province.

Sixty- nine plus 27 have been arrested, which is 69 in Phoenix and 27 in the neighbouring town of Verulam has been arrested.

So we believe that, should those people be arrested and be sent to prison for a long time which will be part of prevention, because most of them especially the political killings are across the board.
You find them killing for cash heists, find the killing for taxi violence, killing for UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 100 politics and killing for being thieves and all that.

So, we are working on these identified groups as prevention, but also we are creating the visibility and quick response on these matters and these areas.

We are also enhancing working with the communities as preventative measures.

Thank you very much, Chair.


Gen O S M TERBLANCHE: The Minister came out with a typical shotgun approach, you know.

Hopefully by now the murder rate is quite a bit down and under control.

Minister, can you maybe tell us since your introduction of these measures that you mentioned, this whole newspaper of them: What is the percentage drop in the in the murder rate, in KwaZulu-Natal?

I also want a comprehensive answer.

Thank you Chair.
Thank you Chair.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: I don't think I heard him well on what he said, but I heard at the tail end that: What is the percentage of murder rate drop.

It hasn’t happened Chairperson.

We are having the problem as I explained that it has shifted, that is why we are coming with responses of creating these units.

But I have said that, we have a very high rate of arresting these gangs and these people that are killing people there.
The more you put them in there, the more of them doing life sentences which is quite as big number.

We UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 101 believe that working together with the other segments in sending people to prison will help us.

The police and the prosecution working together will be able to bring these murders and other general crime down, but the responses are good and the responses continue to happen.

Thank you Chair.
Thank you Chair.

Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Well, Minister the responses are not good.

You know very well that not everyone especially the Indians, the thugs Indians who killed African people in Phoenix, not all of them are arrested.

Can you elaborate on that fact Minister?


Secondly, you know, the police stations such as Amaoti do not resources to operate with, as well as the main police station which is on Mtshebheni, which is a neighbouring police station with Phoenix area whereby people we killed the numbers.

As a result, those people have to run back to Phoenix where the racism is very high and they are not protected.

Can you elaborate on how many Indians so far has been arrested?
What are you doing to do to address the issue of resources in Mtshebheni and Amaoti Minister?

Thank you.

Mr D BERGMAN: Chair, on a point of order!

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, in Phoenix we have arrested criminals ...

[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 102 Mr D BERGMAN: Minister please!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Let us ... [Inaudible] ... to the point of order.

Yes, what is your point of order?


Mr D BERGMAN: Chair, just in terms of how we address people and populations, I think we must be fair.

We have Indians that live in our population.

I think we owe them a debt of respect.

I think we owe everyone a debt of respect in South Africa.

If we may please address everyone correctly and politely.

Thank you.

Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: On a point of order Chair.

To whom are you referring?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Wait hon Mkhaliphi.
Hon member, I have not detected any wrong so far.

Please you continue hon Minister.

Hon Minister, can you continue.

Sorry about that.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, the two stations that the hon member talks about, the Mtshebheni is one station that we have given the new station commander and working around the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 103 resources.
The Amaoti one, which is her ward, Ward 53 where she comes from, we had a meeting at the very last Friday in Ethekwini and it has been agreed that we will have to work hard that, that station in the next 12/18 months, is built and is fully functional and it stops to be the reporting station.

So, there are things that are happening there.

In terms of arresting, we have arrested criminals there, not African, Indian or white criminals.
We have just arrested criminals ... [Applause] ... and they will be tried as such.

If somebody sees them as the hon Mkhaliphi is saying, that is good for them, but the police deal with criminals.

We identify them much later if we need to, but we don’t... We just look at the criminal and deal with the criminal.

Thank you.

Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: On a point of order Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes hon Mkhaliphi.

Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: I am not answered.


I had specific questions to the Minister with regards to the killings, Phoenix killings by Indians killing black people.

I asked the Minister how many Indian thugs have been arrested so far.

Can you please answer me directly Minister?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 104 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member, I think the hon Minister has answered the best he could.
I think he has answered the question and what he had said so far with regards to that particular case is enough.

Ms S GWARUBE: Sorry, on a point of order Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, hon member, what is the point of order?

Ms S GWARUBE: I think the point is that, to refer to an entire group of people as criminals, is what we are saying is the problem and is what we are asking you to rule on.

The reality is that; the hon member cannot talk about how Indians must be arrested.
The Minister has eloquently said that criminals must be arrested.

We are asking you to rule on the fact that we can’t group an entire race group of people as criminals and that that be allowed in this House.

Thank you.

Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: On a point of order Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon member.

May I respond to hon Gwarube.

Hon Gwarube ... Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, are you going to recognise my hand?
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 105 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I did, I did!

I will give you a chance.

Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Gwarube has raised an objection and I am addressing it.

Hon Gwarube, on the basis of what you have just said now, I will try to find the best possible response to that.

I will come back to you with that.

Hon Mkhaliphi, what is the problem?


Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: No Chair, we can’t run away from the fact that black people were killed in July by Indians.

That is a fact.

So, who killed those black people in Phoenix if it was not Indians?

It is a well-known fact in South Africa that, Indians in Phoenix killed black people.

We cannot come here in Parliament and want to pretend as if those people were not killed by Indians.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi ...
[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 106 Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: No one can intimidate me and call a point of order here while our black people were massacred by Indians in Phoenix.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi!

Hon Mkhaliphi!

An HON MEMBER: Indians are also black if you didn’t know.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi!

Hon Mkhaliphi!

You are ...

[Inaudible.]


Mrs H O MKHALIPHI: Indians are not black ... Sesotho: ... wena semaumau.

English: Indians are from India.

That is why they ... [Inaudible] ... you of your mentality.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi!

Information technology, IT could you please remove hon Mkhaliphi.

[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 107 AN HON MEMBER: Obscured by your red overall.

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

AN HON MEMBER: Chair!

Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, can we please behave.

IsiZulu: Nk N P SONTI: Uzosijwayela manje.

Enzeni ama-ovaloli abomvu?

Enzeni ama-ovaloli abomvu?

Niyasijwayela manje.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members ...[Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): House Chair Ntombela!

House chair Ntombela!

[Interjections.]

IsiZulu: ILINGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Niyaqala manje!

Niyaqala manje!
Niyaqala manje!

Mr N SINGH: Chairperson on a point of order!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): House Chair Ntombela there is a point of order in the House.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 108 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes hon Singh, your point of order.

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chair, I don’t think that we should be allowing this kind of racism to prevail in our Parliament and the hon Mkhaliphi knows that.
The Minister responded to the question and the usual practise is that, when a Minister responds we accept his answer whether we like it or not.

Hon Mkhaliphi’s father by the way is an Indian.

I just want to say hon Chair we should move on because we are satisfied with the answer that the Minister gave.

Thank you.

Ms O M C MAOTWE: No they were Indians hon Singh.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Mkhaliphi!

Is that hon Mkhaliphi again?

I had requested IT to ...

[Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon House Chair Ntombela!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Yes, hon House Chair I am listening.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 109 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon House Chair Notmbela there is a point of order from hon Radebe in the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay hon Radebe, but can IT please remove hon Mkhaliphi from the platform.
I have requested that.

Hon Radebe, you can go ahead.

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, I was going to rise on a point of order that: (1) You have already made a ruling on this issue.

(2) We have to revert to the Constitution of this country that, we cannot incite racism in this country.

I think we must come back on that one.

Because the member is already out of the platform.


We must come back and rule on that because really because it will all be constitutional delinquency if you can allow that to stand up.

Thank you Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I have already said hon Radebe that those kinds of comments are totally unacceptable.

We cannot use this platform that we have to hurl insults or racial distortions.

It cannot be accepted.


I have UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 110 ruled on that hon Radebe.

Can we move on?

We are supposed to be... Where are we Table?

Hon Chair, where are we?

It was supposed to be the last supplementary question by hon Majozi.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon Majozi is next hon House Chair.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Minister, how many of the 12 000 new SAPS recruits promised by President Ramaphosa in the 2022 state of the nation address, will be deployed to KwaZulu-Natal?

Please provide full details as well as the timeline for their deployment.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order in the House.

There is a lot of noise in the House now.

Please allow the Minister to respond.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, this hon member likes details.
Chairperson, I did answer this question originally asked by hon Whitfield about the deployment of these ... We said most of them in this young group will be absorbed by these special units, that’s what I said.

For instance, at the present moment, you've got 5 500 Public Order Policing, POP in the whole Republic of South Africa.

They are UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 111 supposed to be 12 300.

So if you look at it, even the whole 7 000 can be taken by POP alone.
They have a special task force that will have to recruit the young blood because in those units as you grow, your body begins to tell you that you don’t belong to this unit, your National Intervention Unit, NIU, your Tracking Response Team, TRT.

Most of this group of people ... we must remember that you joined the SA Police Service you must be 30 and young so that so that you were able to fit in the high intensity of response and the work that you will be doing.
Therefore, hon member Majozi, most of them are not going to go to the province, they are going to be absorbed on the special units.

Those will be able to respond especially the unit that all expects are saying and we need to improve on which is POP.

As we ever have been given the leeway of training going forward, then we’ll begin to put them on the station level and on the provincial level.

Also, the population of provinces does determine who gets bigger share of resources.
We all know that Gauteng is the most populous province followed by KwaZulu-Natal and Western Cape.

The distribution will be according to what the Statistics SA will be telling us soon, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2022 Page: 112 so we are able to use those numbers for distribution of resources around the country.

Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you hon members.
Seeing that we will not have enough time for the next category of questions, I want to announce that, the time allocated for the questions has expired.

Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.

That concludes the business for the day.

The House is adjourned.

The House adjourned at 17:58.