Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698139833501.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 1 THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE MINI-PLENARY SESSION OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ Members of the mini-plenary session met in the on the virtual platform in the National Assembly Chamber at 16:30.
ANNOUNCEMENTS The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, before we proceed, I would like to remind you that the Virtual mini- plenary is deemed to be in the precinct of Parliament.

And constitute a meeting of the National Assembly for debating purposes only.

In addition to the rules of virtual sittings, the Rules of the National Assembly including the rules of the debate apply.

Members enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Assembly.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 2 Members should equally note that anything said in the Virtual platform is deemed to have been said to the House and may be ruled upon.

All members who have logged in shall be considered to be present and are requested to mute their microphones and only unmute when recognised to speak.
This is because the microphones are very sensitive and will pick up noise that might disturb the attention of other members.

When recognised to speak please unmute your microphone and connect your video, we do understand that there are those that have connection problems so it’s acceptable if you can’t unmute you video due to the network so that you can have a better coverage.
Members may make use of the icons on the bar at the bottom of their screens which has an option that allows the member to put up his or her hand to raise a point of order.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 3 The secretariat will assist in alerting the Chairperson to members requesting to speak.
When using the virtual system members are urged to refrain or desist from unnecessary point of order or interjections.

Hon members, we shall now proceed to the Order which is Debate On Budget Vote 11,7&12: Public Service and Administration, National School of Governance and Public Service Commission.

Having said that, I will now invite and recognise the Acting Minister for the Public Service and Administration the hon Nxise.
APPROPRIATION BILL Debate On Budget Vote 11,7&12: Public Service and Administration, National School of Governance, Public Service Commission: The ACTING MINISTER OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you hon Chairperson and members of this House, the Deputy Minister for Public Service and Administration Dr Chana Pilan-Majake, Minister and Deputy Ministers, hon Chairperson UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 4 and members of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, the Acting Chairperson and Commissioners of Public Service, Chairperson and Board of Trustees of Government Employees Medical Scheme, GEMS, the Chairperson of the Public Sector Education and Training Authority, The Chairperson of African of Government Council, the heads of institutions within the portfolio committee of Public Service and Administration, esteemed guests, ladies and gentlemen.
On the 4th of April 202, President Cyril Ramaphosa appointed me to act as Minister for Public Service and Administration.

This followed the appointment of my predecessor Ms Ayanda Dlodlo as Executive Director of the board of the World Bank.
Allow me to extend my good wishes to Ms Dlodlo on her appointment and to thank her providing strategic leadership to the Public Service and Administration during her term The Ministry of Public Administration is constituted by four entities: The Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, Vote 11 led by the DG, Ms Yolisa Makhasi, the National School of Governance Vote 7 led by the principal Professor Busani Ngcaweni, the Government Employees Medical Scheme which UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 5 generates its own income and not covered in the budget vote is led by the principal officer Dr Stan Moloabi and the Centre for Public Service Innovation led by the Acting Director, Ms Lydia Sebokedi.
The Public Service Commission is an independent institution for which I shall also table its Budget Vote 12 established in terms of chapter 10 of the Constitution.

The PSC, Public Service Commission, is currently chaired in an acting capacity my Professor Somadoda Fekeni and administratively led by Advocate Dinkie Dube.

The Deputy Minister hon Philani-Majake will table the budget in respect of the Centre for Public Service and Innovation.
Our apex priority for this current administration as the country and the department is to build a capable, ethical and developmental state.

As articulated in the MTSF, Mid-Term Strategic Framework, a capable state is the one which has the required human capability, institutional capacity, service processes and technological platforms to deliver services to the people.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 6 An ethical state is the one which is driven by constitutional values and principles of public administration and the rule of law focused on the progress of progressive realisation of socio-economic rights and justice and outlining the Bill of Rights.
A developmental state is the one which aims to meet people’s needs through interventionist, developmental and signatory public administration leading an active citizen through partnership with all sectors of society.

Hon members, this sphere marks 25 years since our government adopted Batho Pele principles championed by the first post- apartheid Minister for Public Service and Administration, the late Dr Zola Skweyiya.
In his foreword in what Batho Pele, Dr Skweyiya pointed out that I quote: “The transformation of our public service is to judged rightly by the practical difference that people see in their everyday lives.” UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION These principles remain relevant today.
Page: 7 The DPSA has the task of creating conditions, policies and procedures as well as norms and standards but promote a capable ethical and develop oriented public service to strengthen service delivery.

Flowing from the 2019 to 2024 Mid-Term Strategic Framework, the department adopted five priority programmes to realise the MTSF.
The revitalised implementation of Batho Pele, the full implementation of Public Administration Management Act, stabilising the public service, fighting corruption and effective implementation of public service policies.

In relation to the effective implementation of Batho Pele, Cabinet has approved Batho Pele revitalisations strategy to promote the people focused public service.
The Public Administration Management Act, PAMA, is aimed at harmonising all three spheres of government to ensure uniformity and synergy and its implementation will go a long way towards the realisation of a capable state as envisioned by the NDP, National Development Plan.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 8 Central to the stabilisation efforts, will be the effective and efficient management of the public finances.

The fight against corruption is ongoing.

Corruption and other aspects of poor governance and weak institutions have substantial adverse effects on economic growth.
Effective implantation of public policies is about service delivery.

Public policy is the translation of public needs into action.

We are committed to an integrated approach which fosters partnership of all government institutions across the spheres, collaboration of institutions within the public service and administration and portfolio through engagement of civil society and business as we endeavour to improve the service delivery.
All the work we do as government relies on having cadre of dedicated skilled and hardworking public servants who are responsive, innovative and committed to help realise government objectives.

And I want to emphasize, we are not apologetic about this.
All the work that government has to relies on having a cadre of dedicated, skilled hardworking UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 9 public servants who are responsive, innovative, and committed to help government realise the government objectives.
Ongoing implementation efforts to improve the performance of the public service municipalities, public entities requires the development of an intervention’s framework from government, modernising of the public administration, strengthening of government monitoring and evaluation and other systems, systematising human resources and organisational development and Batho Pele initiatives to ensure that government machinery can contribute to the promise of a better life for all within the republic of South Africa.
Strengthening service delivery is not just a technical exercise but about transformation.

Pillar 1 of the White paper on the rights of persons with disabilities refers to removing to access and participation.

The framework on the gender responsive planning, budgeting, monitoring and evaluation and auditing requires institutions to reserve specific budget for gender matters.
South Africa is party to the convention on elimination of all forms of UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 10 discrimination against women which seeks to ensure the protection of the rights of women at the workplace.

The Public Sector Wage Bill is under severe pressure due to the general constraints faced by the South African economy.
The situation has been aggravated by the Covid-19 pandemic.

It has become increasingly important to develop a new remuneration framework for the public sector including a wage sector mechanism to better manage the public Sector Wage Bill and ensure a greater degree of uniformity and alignment in remuneration between the various paths of the public sector.
We convened with unions a timely Public Service Summit on the collective bargaining on the 28-30 March 2022, where all parties engaged in a frank exchange but we were able to agree on a number of areas in the final declaration with regard to resourcing, reconfiguration to job security, anti-corruption, the fight against poverty, unemployment and inequality and the people of centralised collective bargaining.
The National School of Government, NSG has the mandate to provide or facilitate the provision of education and training UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 11 or education, training and development interventions in the public sector.
The school’s five a year strategy is unfolding in a dynamic manner coinciding with the events like the Covid- 19 pandemic and harnessing the potential of the rapidly expanding digital transformation responding to the challenges of overturning unemployment and inequality and constraint budgets.
The National School of Government has made significant strides including the following: 135 e-learner enrolments; rolling out flagship programmes in the areas of effective governance, gender and transformation, leadership induction and policy regulation; hosting successful leadership development interventions including economic governance schools, the programme of ethical leadership and executive oversight and the induction programmes for boards of public entities and master classes with international speakers.
Today colleagues and hon members, I encourage that elected representatives and appointed officials are going back to class.

In March 2021, President Ramaphosa together with members of the executive and other officials joined a master UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 12 class.
I am encouraged that mayors and other entities; state entity board members are being inducted on ethical leadership executive oversight.

I’m encouraged by a thousand of public servants including our teachers who are completing courses on ethics.

Hon members, professionalising the public administration is one of the key imperatives of building a state capacity.
The President in the Sona indicated that we are now at an advanced stage of finalisation of the professionalization framework with an emphasis on entry, recruitment, selection, induction continuous learning and career progression of the public servants.

Indeed, I wish to assure you that the framework has been finalised consideration by Cabinet.
It proposes radical public reforms which will include more decisive intervention on consequent management especially dealing with mediocrity, unethical behaviour, corruption and criminal acts committed.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 13 Instruments to undertake integrity testing before any individual joins the public sector.
Stabilizing the political administrative interphase across the public service with regard to the tenure of the HODs, heads of departments, we shall consider increasing the period of tenure to ten years, subject to performance.

Repurposing the role of the public service commission for insulation of recruitment and selection processes from parties and influence for the appointment of the director generals and their deputies.
Review and strengthening recognition of learning for the youth in the public sector.

The Public Service Commission remains a critical entity of the department committed to establishing sound and good governance in the public service based on principles of accountability participation, responsiveness to the needs of the people, transparency and the rule of law.
In relation to the goal of development orientation, the PSC has found that South Africa planning system turns to be geared towards reporting and auditing rather than resolution of development programmes necessary to combat poverty, unemployment and inequality.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 14 The PSC’s 2021 state of the public service report reveals a lot of variable income capacity and performance across the public service with major deficiencies in may departments existing side by side with pockets of strengths and excellence.
So, the report makes proposals on the need to build institutional capability.

The PSC annually conducts announced and unannounced inspections of service delivery.

They go to the service sites to evaluate service delivery from the perspectives of the citizens and identify service delivery challenges that can be addressed immediately.
The PSC participated in the Mission Waterberg District Municipality in 2021 as part of the partnership between the United Nations and the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs initiative to support the implementation of the district development model.
A critical programme building the state capacity and ensuring improved responsiveness to community needs UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 15 The PSC’s citizen’s forum is distinctly South African method of engaging citizens and focuses on the delivery of particular programmes at a given point.
It involves government working with citizens to propose practical measures to improve service delivery.

PSC continues to monitor the performance of the departments in terms of payment of invoices of suppliers within 30 days timeframe stipulated in the Finance Management Act.

Further to this, the PSC in its quest to be responsive to the needs of the citizens and ensure accountability continue to intervene in the matters of unresponsiveness by public institutions to provide required services.
These interventions include the SAPS forensic services to release a forensic analysis report to enable grieving families to bury their loved ones, the issuance of matric certificates and payments of the Sassa Covid-19 relief funds during 2021/22 financial year.
The PSC has continued to contribute towards the improvement of the sound labour relations in public UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 16 service through investigating grievances that could be resolved by the departments and their employees.
The PSC’s final report on effectiveness employee development in the public service will assist the departments to develop and review their training and development policies in response to the Fourth Industrial Revolution skills needs in order to support the government operations and service delivery.

The national anti-corruption hotline assists members of the public to report corruption and fraud occurring in the public service.
The PSC has witnessed an increase in the level of the utilisation of the hotline from 872 to 1 563 in the 2021/22 financial year resulting in the recovery of monies fraudulently obtained and punishing of wrongdoers.

The PSC conducted an assessment to the effectiveness of the complaints management system in the public service.

The study found that there is no consistency in the management of complaints in the public service and that of monitoring the evaluation of complaints lacks vigour.
The PSC made UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION recommendations aimed at assisting departments in this area of Page: 17 work.
One of the flagship projects of the PSC is the assessment of the effectiveness of government support to service delivery with a particular focus on information and communication technology as well accommodation of government to deliver services.

In supporting Parliament to exercise its oversight role and hold executives accountable, the PSC will conduct inspections in partnership with Parliament.
The PSC will contribute toward professionalization of the public service, continue to conduct investigations in the public administration malpractices and address the underlying causes of effective discipline management in the public service.

The following budget has been allocated to respective programmes and entities.

The DPSA budget allocation for 2022/23 financial year is R540,3 million, an increase of 1,6% from the final allocation for 2021/22.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 18 The DPSA programmes have been allocated the following resources: Programme 1, the administration has been allocated R245,2 million and then Programme 2, the human resource management and development is allocated R53,6 million; Programme 3, negotiation labour relations and remuneration management is allocated R106,9 million; Programme 4, e- Government services and information management is allocated R32,3 million and Programme 5, government services access and improvement which also the transfer of payment to the centre for public service innovation R44,5 million is allocated and R102,3 million has also been considered.
The budget for the NSG for this financial year is R228 million as the NSG has to generate an additional revenue for financial sustainability.

The training trading entity has budgeted to raise income from the course fees of R101 million.

The PSC budget allocation for 2022/23 financial year is R288 million which is an increase of 0,8% from the final allocation for 2022 financial year.

So, the PSC, consists of four programmes.
Programme 1, administration with the budget allocation of R140 million; Programme 2, leadership management UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 19 practice is allocated R48,1 million, Programme 3, monitoring and evaluation is allocated a total of R41,6 million and programme 4, integrity and anti-corruption is allocated R55,7 million.
In summary, our task is to change the lives of South Africans for the better through an ethical, capable and developmental public service.

Chairperson and members, I hereby table the budget of the DPSA and its entities for 2022/23.

Thank you.

Ms T MGWEBA: Thank you very much, Chair.

Hon acting Minister and hon Deputy Minister in the Minister for Public Service and Administration, hon members and the acting chair of the Public Service Commission and Commissioners, good afternoon.
Hon Chair, in this portfolio committee we recognise that the Constitution provides that the Republic is one sovereign democratic state and that the government is constituted as National, provincial, and local spheres of government which are distinctive, interdependent, and interrelated.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 20 Administration in every sphere of government is governed by the values and the principles governing the public administration in section 151 of the Constitution.
The Constitution requires all spheres of government to provide effective, efficient, transparent, accountable and coherent government for the Republic to secure the wellbeing of the people and the progressive realisation of their constitutional right.

One of the most pervasive challenges facing our country is the need for the government to redress poverty, marginalisation of people, communities and other legacies of the apartheid and discrimination.
The challenge is best addressed by providing for administrations in the three spheres of government to organise their function in many ways that ensure efficient, quality, collaborative and accountable service delivery, to alleviate poverty and promote social and economic development for the people of South Africa.

Hon Chair and hon members, there is a motto in the Freedom Charter which says, “the people shall govern” this motto became a movement in its own right from 1955 until today.
This principle is based on the integrity that government accords to the people of South Africa.

This is UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 21 not a mere rhetoric, we deliver on it and that is how our organisation carries itself in front of the citizens.
Hon Chair and hon members, regarding Vote 11 for the Department of Public Service and Administration let’s highlight the following issues: The state as the single largest employer is going through difficult financial times.

As a caring government, the department had to function within the available resources.

There are competing demands on a shrinking fiscus.

This state of affairs needs every stakeholder to tread carefully and the meeting of minds is demanded from everyone of these stakeholders.
As the state becomes cautious of borrowing to pay salaries at the expense of delivering, the service recipients have no mercy regarding the service they expect, neither is organised labour lenient expecting less of from the pie allocated to the Wage Bill.
The Department of Public Service and Administration public services on one side and the organised labour on the other with our support need to negotiate for conditions of service, cognisant of the fact that compensation of employees cannot take the biggest slice of the pie regarding the budget UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 22 allocation to the department, and even so, the entire Wage Bill of the public service.
Hon Chair and hon members, due care must be given to discipline management.

The litigiousness of this process in the entire public service also eats away from the budget allocations as decisions and processes to discipline get challenged in court.

This process needs to be managed carefully, especially by the department itself, since it is the main department ensuring the implementation of public service regulations and monitoring the flouting of these regulations within the public service.
Therefore, hon members, it may be a high time that the issue of discipline management is centralised where it matters most, at the Department of Public Service and Administration.

It may be democratic and civil to decentralise it to other departments.

However, the policy and the processing gaps are to derail to leave them open to different interpretations by the departments that are not equipped to deal with them.
Hon Chair and hon members, as Parliament we are still expecting legislative reforms regarding the Public Service UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 23 Management Act 11 of 2014 in order to sharpen the public service regulations to deal effectively with discipline management, financial disclosures and officials doing business with the state.
If the officials still continue doing business with the state, it means there are policy gaps that they see and the blunt instrument that they record regarding legislation policy and regulations.

The department might need to survey this matter with public servants through a well formulated investigative questionnaire to get the fillers on this policy and the legislative gap.

Hon Chair, the resolve is that embedded corruption is eliminated.
This resolve is seen in its desire to be strong in two lifestyle audit, so that public servants do not have a lifestyle not commensurate with their salary earnings.

This policy direction needs collaboration with the companies and Intellectual Property Commission as well as the SA Reserve Service.

In this manner, the fight against corruption can be won for congruency and alignment.

Lifestyle audits should coincide with the financial disclosure framework.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 24 Conducting these two, but agreeable and complementary processes at separate times defeats the noble purpose of eliminating corruption.
Reliable and useful information gets discovered at different times and after effect alignment must be effected in this regard if we are to see a real turnaround on corruption.

Chair, at this committee we expect that the maturity of democracy and experience the public services has should make us see less of service delivery protests.

Such protest must only be justified by the shrinking pool of resources allocations, not because those who are charged to deliver services ignore this mandate.
This is a task that the public service has not been at keen to execute with resolve and enthusiasm.

Willing political machinery must be supported by a willing administrative and managerial machinery.

The political administrative interface must be managed in such a way that it frees the hand of the executive from holding the power that should not be in its hand and allow it free administration to carry its duty without interference.

We envisage a public service that is allowed to ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

... professionally where they are empowered by legislation to do so.

In that way, service UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 25 delivery would improve.

Service delivery improvement plans will be scrutinised professionally without the executive shielding those who do not perform on this level.
Chairperson, we need to see replication of discovered innovations.

In order to improve service and the quality of life of the citizens, the department must not be bad to buy-in into new innovations because it improves their relationship with service recipients and the general society.
Chairperson, concerning the Vote 7, of the National School of Government, may we highlight the following: It has been realised that the school has been facilitating the generic and specialised program from the middle management and downwards.

We also note the new approach to keep attention to the executive education.

This is a high level approach to the skill and upskill senior management, the executive and the parliamentarians.
The approach will improve the management from a policy and execution perspective.

As much as it will improve management and execution themselves on this level, it will also improve oversight on part of legislators.

We wish the school well in this focused endeavor UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 26 to improve skills and service delivery.
Our wish is also for the school to refine its funding model so that it can generate enough revenue to run its mandate and programs.

Hon Chair and hon members, on Vote 12 of the Public Service Commission, please, note the following: It is our desire as the committee to see the Public Service Commission becoming more independent not only on paper but in reality.

The independence and impartiality of the commission must be realised when its recommendation are also mandatory and not advisory.
We need to see the public service and the executive ensuring that their recommendations gets implemented.

There is nothing to lose in implementing the Public Service Commission recommendations except to improving the outlook of the departments.
The executive and the public service in the eyes of the citizens the spotlight is not at the Public Service Commission, but it is on departments, the public service and the executive doing the right thing and performing in the purview of legislation and regulations.
With these few remarks wish all the departments under these votes the success under its implementation policy and honoring legislative frameworks UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION involved.

The ANC support the Budget Votes 7, 11 and 12.

I Page: 27 thank you, hon Chair.


Dr L A SCHREIBER: Hon Chairperson, it has now become abundantly clear that the ANC in Parliament is doing its very best to run away from the findings of the State Capture Commission.

The Department of Public Service and Administration, too, has done absolutely nothing to uproot ANC cadre deployment, which is the fundamental cause of state capture and corruption in South Africa.
Since the ANC is apparently hard of hearing when it comes to the findings of the Zondo Commission, allow me to try and break the sound barrier with a few short extracts from the Reports’ thousands of pages.

Keep in mind, these words are not mine or the words of the DA.

They are direct quotes from the Chief Justice of the Republic of South Africa.
Of course, the Reports flag a long list of ANC members, some of whom continue to sit as Members of this UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 28 very Parliament and Cabinet, as implicated in state capture corruption: Gwede Mantashe, Jacob Zuma, Cedric Frolick, Nomvula Mokonyane, Dudu Myeni, Vincent Smith, Malusi Gigaba and Zizi Kodwa.
But, as the Commission’s findings make clear, capturing and destroying our state is a team sport.

And accused number one is the ANC itself.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Schreiber, please wait there is a hand.

Hon Radebe?

Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Hon Schreiber has just named the sitting Members of Parliament on the first name terms, which is not allowed according to Rule 82.

Thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much.
Hon Schreiber, Members of Parliament are still honourable and you can call them Mr or Miss or any title that befits them.

Please refrain from doing that.

Thank you.

Dr L A SCHREIBER: Okay.

Thank you, Chair.

They are honourable despite being mentioned in the Zondo Commission Report.
As the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 29 Commission’s findings make clear, capturing and destroying our state is a team sport.

And accused number one is the ANC itself.

So let’s look at what the Commission says about these World Champions of corruption.
In the first volume of the report, Chief Justice Zondo confirms, with reference to EOH and Blackhead Consulting, that these were: “At least two instances where the proceeds of corruption were diverted to a political party, in both instances the ANC.” Later in the same report, the Chief Justice says that “in fact, there is another example.

That is BOSASA.

The evidence revealed that BOSASA made donations to the ANC in cash and in kind.
It cannot be that it only gave the ANC ‘clean’ money or that it did not spend ‘dirty’ money on the ANC.” In a subsequent volume, Chief Justice Zondo finds that a so- called “war room” provided by BOSASA to help the ANC during UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 30 the 2014 election campaign was “a form of inducement and gain aimed at achieving influence.” The Report goes on to say that “there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the ‘war room’ facilities were received by the ANC with knowledge on the part of the ANC officials.
And the evidence in this regard establishes a prima facie case of corruption.” Then we get to the latest, penultimate, volume of the Zondo Report.

Referring to the capture of Eskom that has plunged us all into darkness and is destroying South Africa’s economy, Chief Justice Zondo unleashes the blunt truth by stating that: “The ANC and the ANC government should be ashamed that this happened under their watch.
The question that the people of South Africa are entitled to ask is: where was the ANC as the Guptas took control of important SOEs such as Transnet, Eskom and Denel?

Where were they?

What were they doing?

Were they aware of everything but lacked the courage to stop President Zuma and his friends, the Guptas, in what they were doing?
Or UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION were they looking the other way?” But, for the ANC, the worst Page: 31 is yet to come, Chairperson.

In the fourth volume of the Report, Chief Justice Zondo makes it clear that the fifth and final version will directly tackle the foundation of state capture in South Africa.
And that is the cancerous corruption called cadre deployment.

I quote from the penultimate Zondo Report: “Whether the position taken by the ANC” – that it is entitled to deploy its own people or members to senior positions – “is correct, is an issue that will be dealt with in a later part of this Report.” On 15 June, when the final Report is released, the day of reckoning will finally arrive for the ANC’s cadre deployment corruption.
That reckoning will hopefully also include a finding on the evidence presented to the Commission by Mr Francis Moloi, a seasoned career diplomat.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 32 In an affidavit submitted to Chief Justice Zondo, Mr Moloi exposed how the ANC’s cadre deployment committee, I quote: “unlawfully nominated ambassadors, heads of mission and senior diplomats.” In exchange, these cadres were expected to pay debit orders of R2 800 per month to fund the ANC.
This revelation – that cadres were paying protection money to the ANC in exchange for employment as part of a global racketeering operation – confirms that the ANC is little more than a criminal syndicate.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Schreiber, unfortunately your time has expired.

Dr L A SCHREIBER: Was it six minutes, Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes.

Dr L A SCHREIBER: Okay.

We will soon find the truth.

Thank you, Chair.


UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I do have a time.

Don’t Page: 33 try.

Ms R N KOMANE: Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Hon Chairperson, the EFF rejects the Public Service and Administration proposed budget for the financial year 2022-23.
We reject this proposed budget for the same reasons we rejected the previous Vote Budget.

Even if the ruling party refuses to admit it, the EFF were correct about the current state of collapse and incapacity of the Public Service.

We are not going to waste time dealing with the nominal problems of budget cuts and shift between programmes because the current and previous committee reports and the proposed budget were adopted without the practical input that were made.
And the recommendations adopted in those reports were nothing but a copy and paste from the previous reports.

Chair, we are always told that South Africa is a developmental state.

What is a development state if it does not have the necessary capacity?

The truth of the matter is that South Africa is not a developmental state.
If anything, what do we UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 34 have here is simply and incapable state.

A developmental state must have a capacity to respond to a pandemic like Covid-19.

Our hospitals and clinics did not response to the Covid-19 pandemic.

Instead, our people died, including our nurses and doctors.
A developmental state must have a capacity to respond to floods in KwaZulu-Natal, to rebuild roads in eThekwini Municipality, deliver water to the affected areas in Umlazi, Phoenix, Pinetown and other affected areas and continue to operate and deliver government services.

Because of the incapacity of the state, our people in KwaZulu-Natal are still waiting for water, electricity, sanitation and health services weeks after the floods.
Chair, a developmental state capacity must be able to intervene and stops the killings, kidnappings and abductions of women and children.

But the parents are losing and burying their children on a weekly basis.

Like it has happened today in Modimolle in the Limpopo.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 35 A developmental state must have the capacity to ensure reliable in electricity generation.

A developmental state must ensure that trains are running from Johannesburg to Soweto, from Cape Town to Langa and Khayelitsha and from Durban to KwaMashu, Inanda and other areas.
A developmental state must be able to deliver water in Giyani.

A developmental state must be able to stop electricity cable theft.

A developmental state must be able to build hospitals in Rustenburg.

Without any of these, you don’t have a developmental state.

A state capacity or a Public Service and all of the public servants who are underpaid, demoralised and denied salary increases, despite the fact that the cost of gasoline, electricity, housing, food and other necessities have risen dramatically.
I am mere pushing papers Hon Chairperson, what is to be done now?

Firstly, for the Public Service to be service to its citizens, it must have its own capacity.

And this is going to start by building the state capacity and insourcing of workers.
We know insourcing is practical and implementable because it was done into the City of Johannesburg, in Tshwane, in Nelson Mandela Bay, at the SA UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 36 Revenue Service, Sars, and many other institutions that have listened to the EFF’s guidance.
Secondly, Chair, we must train public servants to be dependable and the National School of Government must build its own capacity.

Thirdly, we must increase their salaries to an acceptable standard starting with our doctors, teachers and nurses.

Fourthly, Chairperson, all temporary workers and interns employed in the state institutions must be hired on a permanent basis with benefits and a pension.
Fifthly, all government employees who are doing business with the state as eluded by the previous speaker of the ANC must be given 30 days to leave business or leave the state.

Sixthly, Chair, we must set a clear deadline for all lifestyle audit to be conducted.

And we must have a report by the end of the year 2022.
Unless we recognise public service according to UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 37 this implementable proposal, Chairperson, we will not support this budget as the EFF.

Thank you very much.

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson, I present this budget speech on behalf of the hon Inkosi R N Cebekhulu.
At the outset, the IFP wishes to preface its contribution today by highlighting the fact that the Department of Public Service and Administration has one of the toughest, if not the toughest, mandates in government, specifically the mandate to improve the professionalisation of the Public Service, which does not only act as the face of our government, but comprises a significant portion of the country’s workforce.
Over the last few years, we have seen unprecedented economic struggles and a severe spike in unemployment, largely due to the global COVID-19 pandemic.

However, in all honesty, our economy and employment rate have been in decline for several years now.

South Africa suffers from an ethical bankruptcy, which is pervasive and deeply entrenched in the ruling party.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Corruption has become synonymous with South Africa.

It is part Page: 38 of the country’s brand.


The importance of the role of the Public Service Commission, PSC, in overseeing, monitoring, evaluating and investigating public administration practices, as well as creating a capable, ethical and developmental Public Service, also needs to be highlighted.
After the pillaging of the COVID-19 relief funds for personal protective equipment and the many, many corruption scandals, one shudders to think how we could restore faith in a government that declares war on the poor at every possible opportunity.

The recent floods in KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape saw many lives lost, leaving heartbreaking scenes and many people destitute, and the first thing people were worried about was the mismanagement of relief funds allocated towards mitigating the disaster.
Lest we forget the devastating riots last July – the cost of which is still being counted – where no meaningful arrests UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION have been made, even after the President of the country told Page: 39 us we know who they are.
Recent reports stated that more than 100 000 public servants/employees have been implicated in a graft scheme, where they are unduly and unlawfully benefitting from social grants intended for the poor of South Africa.

This included staff in the Offices of the President, the Chief Justice, the National Treasury and law enforcement agencies.

All to the detriment of the poor.

Unfortunately for the poor in South Africa, this suffering is not temporary.

It is relentless and accumulated.


The heartbreak manifests itself in their everyday struggles, while those who already have plenty, get more.

Therefore, the National Anticorruption Hotline needs to be promoted and prioritised, and the crucial role of whistle-blowers needs to be prioritised by this department.
As the IFP, we therefore echo the recommendation of the committee that the department needs to fast-track the amendments of all legislation due earlier than 2023, to give UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 40 Parliament ample time to finalise such legislation within its term.
The government as an employer in the Public Service Co- ordinating Bargaining Council should swiftly finalise wage negotiations for the 2022-23 financial year.

This will avoid delays to the process, which impact on the morale of public servants, as well as ... uniformity and a timeframe with the financial disclosure framework on lifestyle audits.

We further wish to make mention of the importance of the synchronisation of all three levels of administration in order to achieve anticorruption objectives.
As the IFP, we support the Budget Vote and we will continue to work alongside the department to ensure that the principles of Batho Pele, as well as the vision of the National Development Plan, NDP, is truly fulfilled.

Thank you, hon Chairperson.


Ms H DENNER: House Chair, while 89% of respondents in a survey done lately by Statistics SA indicated that they have faith in Statistics SA as an entity, and views it as a credible and professional institution for now, the opposite is true for other state departments, their entities and the Public Service at large.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 41 The Public Service should be efficient, effective and development orientated, and most importantly, it should be professional and accountable.

Furthermore, constitutional values and principles on all levels of public administration are not negotiable.
They should be present, promoted and maintained, and the core mandate of this department should be to ensure exactly that.

Why then does the South African public not have faith in our Public Service?

Has the department, in conjunction with other government departments, failed to ensure a professional and accountable Public Service to our citizens?

Yes, hon House Chair, I am afraid they have.


The service delivery rendered to us as South African citizens is shockingly poor to say the least, but let me not generalise.

There are public servants who work days and nights to deliver efficient, effective and professional service, and they must be commended.

We thank them for that but sadly, they are few and far between.
Afrikaans: UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 42 Die waarheid is dat hierdie departement die mooiste planne met die mooiste woorde op papier kan saamstel maar as die eindgebruiker van die staatsdiens nie effektiewe en behoorlike diens ontvang nie, help al hierdie woorde en al hierdie planne net mooi niks.
Ek hoop die waarnemende Minister luister mooi.

As ’n nuwe ma tweee jaar moet wag vir haar kraamverlofeis om deur die Werkloosheidsversekeringsfonds se personeel verwerk te word nadat sy ses keer dieselfde dokumente moes indien omdat personeel die dokumente misplaas en verloor, sal sy nie vertroue in die staatsdiens hê nie.
As ’n bejaarde dame deur ’n verpleegster in ’n staatshospitaal kaal uitgetrek word en weerloos op haar bed gelos word vir die ganse saal en hul besoekers om te sien, sal sy en haar familie nie vertroue in die staatsdiens hê nie.

As ’n leerlingbestuurder nie ’n afspraak kan kry om sy bestuurslisensie aansoek te voltooi sodat hy vir ’n werk kan aansoek doen nie omdat die lisensiekantoor een personeellid en geen administratiewe toerusting het nie, sal hy nie vertroue in die staatsdiens hê nie.
Dit is tog die einddoel waarna hierdie departement moet streef.

Dit is tog waarom programme wat deur die National UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 43 School of Government, NSG, aangebied word wentel.

Maar dit word nie op grondvlak deur die kliënte van die staat, ons die belastingbetalers, die inwoners, ervaar nie.
English: Yet, Public Service compensation has grown by about 40% in real terms over the past 14 years.

The wage bill remains the largest component of public spending.

This means that government has to increase its borrowing to sustain its salary bill; a salary bill spent on a great number of public servants who do not have the will, skills or desire to deliver professional, efficient and friendly service to the very people who pay and suffer to keep them in their jobs in the first place.
We note that there are plans to stabilise the Public Service by restoring stability and credibility in state institutions.

These plans contain words such as programmatic interventions, which will include productivity measurements.

These words have been used for years, yet the standard of Public Service has never been this low.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 44 The same goes for the NSG, which has a constitutional mandate to ensure that all the basic values and principles are instilled in the value system and performance of all public servants and representatives.

This is not the case.


The end users of the Public Service very rarely see these wonderful values and principles that the NSG is supposed to instil in their public servants.

Is the NSG failing?

It would seem so.

The same goes for the PSC that is vested with the custodial oversight responsibilities for the Public Service and that is supposed to monitor, evaluate and investigate public administration practices.

Hon Chair, I ask this question.


If the department and its entities such as the NSG and the PSC fully delivered on their mandates and plans as set out in the budget and beyond, and if they effectively and efficiently implemented all of these beautifully set out goals, why is the Public Service underperforming?

Who is not doing their jobs and ultimately, whose responsibility is it?

I thank you.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 45 The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon House Chairperson, Minister for the Public Service and Administration, Acting Minister, hon Nxesi, Chairperson and members of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, noting the amount of time that I do have available I wish to say all protocols observed.
Hon House Chairperson, in considering the strategic and Annual Performance Plans, APPs, of the entities of the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, the committee emphasized that plans and budget allocations must serve the needs and aspirations of the citizens.

This was expressed with the understanding that budget allocation or sufficient budget allocation serves as a key instrument for government to promote growth and development in South Africa.
Budget allocation plays a critical role as an economic instrument ...

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M Mahlaule): Hon Deputy Minister, sorry to do this to you.

There’s a hand.

UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Hon Papo?

Hon Papo, your hand is up!

Page: 46 Okay.

Deputy Minister, can you please proceed.


The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, Chairperson.

Budget allocation plays a critical role as an economic instrument of government to reflect on the country’s socioeconomic policy priorities by translating through implementation strategies, priorities and political commitments into expenditures.

The Budget serves as a vital tool to operationalise government activities towards the achievement of its intended priorities.
Without the budget, the annual performance plans remain a pipe dream.

House Chairperson, it is disturbing to notice the trend of just rejecting the budget by some members of the opposition for political point-scoring.

You have been given the opportunity to represent South Africans in this chamber, do it responsibly.
Unless most of the members are normally not in the portfolio committee when reports are interrogated, and together with the committee we actually carve a way forward in UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 47 terms of managing to achieve the goals for the Department of Public Service and Administration or realise the mandate.
Hon Schreiber of the DA continues to falsely lament corruption by the ANC which I actually think is unfortunate and he is also alluding to the Zondo Commission, which is not what the report is focusing on.

But in terms of that, what I would just want to say is that hon Schreiber should allow due process to unfold and stop grandstanding with the ulterior motive of making the very ANC that is fighting corruption to appear like accused number 1, as he calls the ANC.

Your language [Inaudible.]


of an organization desperate for recognition, hon Schreiber.
The Department of Public Service and Administration continues to intensify the fight against corruption, strengthening anti- corruption practises, which is what we always say, in the public service in the form of: setting of norms and standards for public service of South Africa; appointment by all government departments of ethics officers to monitor and respond to corrupt practices; doing lifestyle audits for public servants, comparing employee salaries to assets owned UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 48 by public servants; launch of Ethical, Disciplinary and Integrity Technical Task Team that works jointly with civil society to monitor anti-corruption in the public service, which means we are now the public also to some level to be part of the processes within the public service that monitors and develop interests in how to deal with corruption; also to protection of whistle-blowers, we appreciates measures taken by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development in amendment of the Protected Disclosures Act that promotes full protection of the whistle blowers; and also, we have to acknowledge the Fusion Centre that brings together all security agencies to intensify the fight against corruption.
The country and the Department of Public Service and Administration are very serious about fighting corruption.

One of the other entities that the Department of Public Service and Administration is responsible for is the Centre for Public Service Innovation, CPSI, which is a centre established in terms of section 7(a) listed in schedule 3A of the Public Service Act of 1994, as amended and is an organ of state.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 49 The mandate of the Centre for Public Service Innovation is to strengthen solution-oriented culture and practice of innovation in the public sector to improve public service delivery.
Through its mandate, the Centre for Public Service Innovation contributes towards the building of a capable, ethical and developmental state.

We do it all the time, hon Komane, because your argument is that we are not a developmental state, we lack capacity.

We may not be having capacity fully, but whatever efforts we put in place are efforts to help build capacity.

It’s a matter of just understanding processes that we do so that you can manage to make meaningful understanding of them.
CPSI has once more managed to get a 5th clean audit.

Which is very much commendable.
The CPSI delivers on its mandate through three sub-programmes that encourage co-development, implementation and replication of innovative service delivery solutions that deals with a myriad of service delivery challenges; which is what we need to at ... our experiences within public service’s challenges UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 50 is not corruption, is not problems, because challenges can always be overcome, there’s no government that can exist without challenges.
Some of the notable solutions of CPSI are but not limited to hackathons, which is a process of bringing together young people to put their heads together and they are given a problem within public service and they come up technical solutions that have been very helpful; there’s also, as part of the notable solutions that are there, Agritech solutions; COVID19 induced e-learning solutions; water filtering systems; fire prevention device for informal settlements; personal safety and crime prevention solutions, it’s called Memeza, which is one instrument that is used mostly by informal settlements when somebody is in trouble and then it’s a way of calling to yourself, the people in the community; there’s also Online Thusong Centre, and a whole lot more other solution- oriented outcomes that CPSI has got.
CPSI unearths innovations towards improved public service.

CPSI natures innovation in public service, thus the annual awards for innovators.

CPSI continues to grow a number of UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 51 in-house software developers in government departments, building solutions internally at a fraction of a price normally charged.
The overall budget of CPSI is R44,4 million in the 2022-23 financial year, as adjusted from R42,5 million in the 2021-22 financial year.

The other entity which the Department of Public Service and Administration is responsible for is the Government Employees Housing Scheme, GEHS.

The Government Employees Housing Scheme was established after negotiations between the employer and labour, which culminated in Public Service Council Bargaining Chamber, PSCBC, Resolution 7 of 2015.
The purpose of the Scheme is to assist government employees to access affordable housing through various interventions including administration of housing allowances, facilitating access to affordable housing finance, facilitation of the provision of the housing stock, enrolling employees into the scheme in order to aggregate demand and offer advice, education and counselling to employees with the aim of UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION improving their chances to access houses and become Page: 52 homeowners.
As at 31 March 2022, the number of employees who are receiving the housing allowance as homeowners has increased to 743 895 as compared to 532 103 in 2015.

A lot of progress has been made in this regard and we are looking forward to allowing more and more public servants to manage to own homes.
Through the Government Employee Pension Fund, GEPF, and Public Investment Corporation, PIC, funding arrangements, an enrolment system has been created and this enrolment system has been assisting the Call Centre to manage to have information on all employees in the public sector and manage to do necessary counselling and training [Time expired.]

I thank you, hon Chairperson.


Ms M T KIBI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon Deputy Minister, all the hon members and all Ministers present here, the ANC adopts this Budget Vote.
The ANC has set for itself the goals of building a capable developmental state with an improved human resource through strengthening state capacity UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION and capability to service the citizens of our country Page: 53 effectively.
As depicted in our vision in the National Development Plan, NDP, 2030, we recognise that neither social nor economic transformation is possible without a capable and developmental state.

The state provides the institutions and infrastructure that enable the economy and society to operate.

We note that critical interventions are required to build a capable state.

Noting that we have to address the triple challenges of inequality, poverty and unemployment.

The state needs to play a developmental role.


This requires a well-run, effective and co-ordinated state institutions with skilled public servants who are committed to the public and capable of delivering consistently, high quality of service to our nation.

We must continue to establish uniformity in the public service across all spheres of government to ensure that a better co- ordination across in government.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 54 As the ANC we believe that policy formulation has to serve the nation’s interest and that they are to be developmental to overcome the root causes of inequality and poverty.

That is what we are doing.

We are improving the public service to be more professional, transparent, efficient and responsive.
Central to building a developmental state, is the human resource.

We are strengthening and professionalising the public service in all spheres of government, particularly at top management and the delivery sectors.

As the ANC we have made progress in transforming middle management and gender parity in the public service.

Our programmes are responsive to our socioeconomic challenges such as unemployment, particularly youth unemployment.
The public service must lead in promoting gender equality and inclusivity with the inclusion of women, youth and persons with disabilities in the sector.

Understanding that we are at a juncture in our country where there are high-levels of unemployment, particularly amongst the youth.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 55 As the ANC-led government, we have remained consistent in our resolution to absorb the youth into the public service.
As stated in the NDP we are committed in making the public service in all spheres a career of choice, particularly for graduates who wish to contribute to the development of the country with the necessary skills and expertise to fulfil its core functions and develop appropriate core paths for technical specialists and specialisations.

Notwithstanding that, we are pleased to note that progress has been made by removing barriers of entry in the public service for young people.
Moreover, in this financial year we welcome the new set target of absorbing 30% of young people into the public service in all departments.

We have faith in that this new target, will contribute in addressing the level of youth unemployment in the country.

As the ANC, we welcome the increment in the budget for this financial year.
However, acknowledging that in real terms we recognise that there is a decrease between this and the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 56 previous financial year due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

It is inevitable that the pandemic has impacted government greatly, hon members.
Furthermore, acknowledge that more funds have been allocated to Programme 1.

We hope to see more improvement in the quality of spending in the department and that the department will monitor fruitless, irregular and wasteful expenditure and adhere to the recommendations made by the Auditor-General.

Developing professional ethos in the public service is crucial to the ANC.

As it is indicated of the type of public service cadre required in the public service.
We require public servants who fully embody the Batho Pele principle, thriving for a people centred government.

We welcome that the department will continue to monitor implementation of the principle.

A developmental state is reliant on the type of public servants that it has.

Public servants that put people first.


UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 57 As the ANC, we commend the department for the efforts they have put to ensure this through the development of the job evaluation system.

We need a system where public servants are appointed based on their competency and capabilities.
Noting that one of the biggest impediments in the public servants is corruption and that it compromises development and it undermines public confidence in the state.

We will continuously address this challenge particularly with public servants conducting business with the state.
The technical assistance unit for ethics and integrity in the public service will carry out a number of measures to tackle corruption in the public service which includes amongst others: The implementation of interventions to support the timely resolution of disciplinary cases and reporting of criminal conduct in the public administration to the relevant law-enforcement authorities initiated.

We have to fast-track the digitisation of the public service and therefore require innovation.
We therefore welcome the recommendations that the Centre for Public Service and UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 58 Innovation should assist the Department of Public Service and Administration in developing innovative solutions to digitalise government’s administration business model for a manual administration business process.
Furthermore, the Centre for Public Service Innovation should also develop innovative solutions to assist government to accelerate service delivery and the replication where necessary.

And to handover such solutions to the relevant departments for further implementation.

Having a meritocratic professional and responsive public service and professional public servants with the requisite skills in their areas of specialisation will improve the quality of services that are delivered to our people.
In our goal of attaining a single public service we have to take a proactive approach to improve relations between all spheres of government.

Thus of all, intensify our efforts in fighting corruption and maladministration.

All efforts are geared towards our transformation agenda of creating a better life for all, through a developmental and capable state.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION The ANC supports this budget.

Page: 59 Hon Chairperson, here we are here, for the Budget Votes, we are not here to be taken through the Zondo Commission report.

All of us read the report.

We understand what is in the report.

So, the recommendations will be implemented when the time comes.
If people do not have anything to say when they want to criticize, maybe the Budget Votes, they must just keep quiet.

Not take things that do not belong here today.

I thank you, Chairperson.

Mrs E N NTLANGWINI: Switch on your light, mama, switch on your light!

Ms M T KIBI: I am sorry.

I am done.

I am done, Chairperson.

Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you, House Chairperson for giving me the opportunity.

Allow me to start off by saying that the NFP will support Budget Vote 11, 7 & 12.
Not necessarily because we are happy with what is going on in the department, but very UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 60 importantly for the purposes of progress so that we can correct what has been happening in the past.

Now, we talk about a very capable state, let me remind the Minister here and the House Chairperson.
First of all, I think we have very short memories when we forget that not so long ago, we lost Lennox Garane.

Who committed suicide so that we can learn what is happening in Parliament.

So, it clearly indicates that we have not been taking this matter seriously enough to be able to address the challenges faced by the public servants in Parliament themselves.

This is where we are housed and what they face on a day to day basis as a result of the conduct of Dumisani Sithole.
Who coincidentally has just had an eight months’ contract extended, and I cannot understand this.

More importantly, I want to say to the Minister, through you House Chairperson, that right now as I speak to you, two minutes ago I got a call about the condition of the nurses, and I know that to some extent it belongs to the health sector, but they are the public servants and what they are going through at R K Khan Hospital.
Now, yes indeed, the Zondo UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 61 Commission has highlighted a whole lot of reasons why we are where we are, and I think that the matter before us is what are we going to do to be able to prevent this from going on and on.
One of my suggestions is that when we want to ensure that we want to employ people in the public sector, should we not consider having an independent human resource body that will be responsible to employ these people rather than them being at the mercy of politicians and political parties?

Because, we continue to lose hundreds of billions of rands in this country, as a result of cadre deployment and that we employ people not based on the capacity and the ability to perform.
But very importantly, on the illegit of whichever political party wherever they are governing.

Now another serious concern that I have is that we have a higher unemployment rate in the country.

Yet, there are people getting double pay from the state.

They are principals, they are educators, they are teachers, but they are also equally councillors and mayors and deputy mayors.

I cannot understand the rationale.


How would you be able to deliver services to UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 62 the people on the ground if you have two jobs?

You are at school, you have a full time job, and yet you want to be a councillor or mayor or deputy mayor, earning two different salaries.
Surely that is a matter that we need to look at.

If we want an ethical state, a capable state and a developed state, then I think it is important we address some of these issues that we have been ignoring for a long period of time.

And when we talk about dealing with corruption, thousands of them have been getting paid by the state and equally getting the R350.

Is my time up, Chairperson?

Thank you, very much.

The NFP supports the Budget Vote.


Dr M M GONDWE: The Department of Public Service and Administration has all but lost the war against corruption, fraud, and other forms of misconduct in our country’s public service on all fronts.

This is evidenced by the fact that we still have public servants conducting business with the state despite this being expressly prohibited by the Public Administration Management Act and the Public Service Regulations.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 63 Government departments are also bled dry, on an annual basis, by all manner of financial misconduct on the part of public servants, with little or no action being taken against the responsible public servants, thereby promoting a culture of impunity in the public service.
Bluntly put, the laws we take the time to pass as legislators are being shunned and spat on by some in the public service.

In March this year, the Public Service Commission informed the portfolio committee that for the 2019-20 financial year, our national and provincial departments incurred approximately R103 billion in irregular expenditure; approximately R2,7 billion in fruitless and wasteful expenditure; and approximately R1,6 billion in unauthorized expenditure.
The combined expenditure for all these forms of financial misconduct amounts to a staggering R107 billion, which we incurred as a country, in the 2019-20 financial year due to financial misconduct on the part of government departments.

As such, it simply cannot be enough for the department to restrict itself to a monitoring role in respect of financial misconduct.
It has to also play an active role in assisting UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 64 government departments, by ensuring that they not only have the proper controls in place to curb such forms of financial misconduct but can subject the responsible public servants to the necessary disciplinary processes.
There is also an alarming number of public servants who are benefitting from social grants at a reported cost of R200 million, for the month of July 2021 to the state, despite some of them not qualifying for these grants.

We will never have a stable and fully functional public service if no disciplinary or criminal action, is taken against public servants who unabashedly flout the relevant legislation and regulations and commit rampant acts of corruption, fraud and other forms of misconduct.
The fact of the matter is also that consequence management is lacking in the public service.

Even if there is some consequence management, it is always not commensurate with the misconduct committed.
It has just become a term that is bandied around for the sake of sounding politically or morally correct, instead of it translating into tangible action being UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 65 taken against all forms of corruption, fraud and other forms of misconduct in the public service.
We therefore, urge the department to urgently adopt and aggressively implement a strategy to deal with the backlog of disciplinary cases which were reported to have cost us an amount of R4,5 billion for the 2019-20 and 2020-21 financial years.
If needs be so, the department should also look into the possibility of centralising the function of discipline management and allow it to be managed and administered by a single competent unit within the department that houses specialists in the fields such as dispute resolution, labour and human resource management.

Shying away from such a policy shift will not bring a lasting solution to this challenge, which has never been effectively dealt with.
We had honestly hoped that the introduction and subsequent implementation of mandatory lifestyle audits for public servants, in 2021, as a mechanism for preventing, detecting and subsequently uprooting corruption and fraud in the public service would have, by now, yielded results in the fight against corruption and fraud in the public service.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 66 However, to date, the Western Cape is the only province to have gone beyond the implementation stage of the lifestyle audit cycle and progressed to the investigations stage, whereas other provinces and national departments are lagging behind in this respect.
The reluctance or inability of other provinces and national departments to conduct these lifestyles audits will only further entrench corruption, fraud and other forms of misconduct in the public service.

We, therefore, recommend that the department firms up and enforce timeframes in relation to the implementation of these lifestyle audits by all government departments and hold government departments accountable if they fail to adhere to these time frames.
The Public Service Commission, if this body is to make a meaningful impact in the war against corruption, fraud and other forms of misconduct in the public service, it will require additional funding and more independence.
About 75% of the commission’s budget, for the 2022-23 financial year, will go towards the compensation of its employees and as such, it is difficult to see how it can effectively discharge its UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 67 mandate with only 25% of its allocated budget at its disposal.
It is for this reason that we support the Bill that the commission intends to introduce to Parliament, which will see the commission being supported by an independent secretariat and acquiring its own stand-alone and fully-fledged Budget Vote located within the Budget Vote of Parliament, to guarantee the commission’s independence from the executive.
It is also worth mentioning that the Private Members' Bill proposed by my colleague, hon Leon Schreiber also seeks to strengthen the hand of the commission in a similar manner.

Let this Bill not be shot down on account of hon Leon Schreiber being a member of the opposition.

We cannot build the public service, let alone this country without considering the views and inputs of those who can, objectively speaking, add them.
We take the point that the commission is presently hamstrung or constrained by the provisions of section 196 of the Constitution in its ability to hold government departments that disregard or ignore its recommendations or fail to act on its findings to account, given that section 196 uses words like promote, investigate, propose and give directions to UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 68 describe the powers and functions of the commission.
However, in light of the alarming levels of corruption and fraud that we find our public service currently mired in, the time has come for the hand of this, our country’s only Chapter 10 institution, to be strengthened, by this House, so that it can play a more impactful role in reshaping the face of our public service.
Lastly, a primary mission of the National School of Government, NSG is to empower and capacitate public servants to be responsive to the needs of our citizens and government priorities through education, training, and development interventions.

However, some of the courses or programmes that the NSG, presently, has on offer do not necessarily speak to the needs of our citizens and government priorities.
It is on this basis that we recommend that the NSG start playing its part in the fight against corruption, fraud and other forms of misconduct in the public service by offering a wider range of courses or programmes which are intended to entrench and inculcate a culture of accountability, professionalism, ethics and morality in the public service and UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 69 also capacitate and empower senior managers to effectively address and deal decisively with acts of corruption, fraud and other forms of misconduct in the public service.
I thank you.

Ms M M NTULI: Hon Chair, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, Ministers present here, hon Chief Whip and Deputy Chief Whip, hon members and fellow South Africans, the ANC supports this Budget Vote No 11, 7 and 12.

This debate takes place during Africa Month in which great ideas gather together for engineering of the elevation of Africa.

The ANC government has taken that button for showcasing the realisation of the world- class public service through Vote No 7,11 and 12.
The ANC manifesto put clear its determination to root out corruption.

We have heard people grandstanding about corruption.

Here we are continuing changing people’s lives.

The launch of Public Administration Ethics, Integrity and Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit over and above the Public Service Commission, PSC, speaks volumes in fighting this scourge.
It is only the ANC after the democratic dispensation in 1994 that put it in its agenda the better life for all, not exempting the monitory group over the majority UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 70 citizens of the country.

Some of the clauses of the Freedom Charter as our blueprint emphasises learning and governing of the people.
The National School of Government, NSG, is exactly giving public servants confidence and making them proud in executing their work whilst the Public Service Commission seeks to address the people to partake in the governing of the country through their comments and being the watchdogs in whatever happens in the public eye and also keeping public servants on their toes and focused at their work at all times.
The committee is looking forward for the PSC to have teeth one day for the fulfilment of this sterling work.

The National School of Government plays a critical role in capacitation of public servants.

It is the main driver of ensuring that we have a capable human resource and ensure career development throughout the public service.
The National School of Government provides support for talent management across all spheres of government and provide for appointments, succession planning and career development.

A capacitated and skilled public will be able to represent and connect to the UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 71 communities that serve.
There is no doubt that the school has taken a proactive approach in developing professional expertise.

The NSG plays a fundamental role in ensuring that public service is professionalised by providing compulsory induction to all public servants.

Furthermore, the NSG played a pivotal role in the development of the draft National Implementation Framework towards the professionalisation of the public service.
It has to ensure that all of the basic values and principles are inculcated into the value system and performance of all public servants and representatives through education, training and development, ETD, initiatives.
It does so through its curriculum design, development and delivery approach with the practical application of participatory people centred methodologies and the application of indigenous facilitation and learning techniques during the ETD initiatives in building a caring ethos and citizen-centred service delivery focus amongst public servants.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 72 This approach consciously focusses on the application of the principles and values of the Constitution and the realisation of the public administrative justice to all whom we serve.
As the ANC we welcome the budget increase allocated to the National School of Government and hope that the entity will continue doing the good job that it does of providing accredited courses to all its learners.

We are pleased to know that a bigger chunk of budget has been allocated to programme 2, which provides education, development and training to public sector employees.

This is a clear indication that building a skilled professional public service is one of government’s priorities.
Furthermore, the committee recommended that the NSG should develop a full- fledged funding model to maintain the self-generated income.

In as much as the COVID-19 has affected the functions of many departments, we can all attest to the fact that it drove us towards innovation.

There is no escape from the Fourth Industrial Revolution.
We commend the school for introducing the use of the e- learning modality that enables it to offer e-learning courses UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 73 and to establish communities of practice as well as open online courses.
We also applaud the school for undertaking training needs analysis with public sector institutions and for completing research projects to inform training needs and opportunities.

This will enable it to be at a competitive level with other tertiary institutions.

However, we recommend that the school impact assessments on public servants who have undertaken their courses, particularly the ethics course, to monitor whether there is an impact on public servants who have enrolled in their course.
This will also encourage more employees to enrol as learners in the school.

We recognise that there is a need to strengthen consequence management in the public service.

As the ANC, we welcome the announcement that professionalisation of public service will introduce a course layer that deals with consequence management, we believe in restoring the integrity of the state.
We have to prevent public service from conducting business with the state and therefore put stringent consequence management in the public service.
A lot has been done unlike the previous speakers here UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 74 from the opposition who stated clear that nothing has been done in this regard, not understanding that the biggest challenge we have in the public service is corruption.
Corruption has negative consequence on our economy and society, impacting on the integrity of our institutions.

It undermines the very moral ethical basis of our young democracy.

As the ANC we are adamant in bringing about ethical and moral leadership in both the public and private sector.

We must collectively fight against corruption if we are to succeed in our fight as the ANC, we are creating and promoting a culture of integrity in government.
That is why we have to keep on supporting institutions such as the Public Service Commission to promote and monitor compliance with constitutional values and principles in the public service.

The promotion of the constitutional values and principles is aimed at fostering a positive behavioural change in the public servants and the public service in order to ensure that services are delivered in a responsive, caring and ethical manner, among other things.
The commission plans to conduct 50 UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 75 quantitative evaluation reports and 12 qualitative evaluations in each of the remaining years of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period.
The purpose of this report and evaluation is to access departments compliance with constitutional values and principles with a view in promoting a culture of excellence in the public service.

Public servants must uphold the code of conduct and conduct themselves in a ...

[Interjections.]

... professional and ethical manner ...

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M Mahlaule): Mma Ntuli, a point of order has been called.

What’s the point of order?

Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Chair, I just want to check.


Can the member perhaps drink some water because, hey, it is difficult in our region, we can’t do everything ... Ms T MGWEBA: No, Ntlangwini, you are out of order.

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M Mahlaule): Hon Ntlangwini, you are out of order.

Can you proceed, hon Ntuli.


UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 76 Ms M M NTULI: Moreover, we are also pleased to know that a bigger chunk allocated will focus on fighting corruption, strengthening human resource practices and management and monitoring and evaluating of service delivery performance in the public service.
As the ANC, we also welcome the introduction of lifestyle audits in the public service and hope that this measure will be strengthened further.

The Public Service Commission will also monitor service and the implementation of Financial Disclosure Framework and strengthen the financial disclosure system to combat corruption.
We hope that they will also monitor the grievances logged in the Anti-Corruption Hotline and the number of grievances that have been resolved and the impact thereof brought to committees or members of the public that logged those complaints.

These platforms are significant as they are platforms where members of the public can log grievances relating to service delivery.

That is what we are about as the ANC service delivery and that is why we are supporting this Budget Vote.
UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION The commission will continue to focus on the Page: 77 professionalisation of the public service by promoting ethical conduct in human resource management and leadership.
In aid of this, the commission will conduct research and monitor and develop capacity on key public service issues such as ethical practices in recruitment processes, effect discipline management and effective management of employee development.

A capable developmental state requires strong human resources with the necessary skills and capabilities as various of ... [Time expired.]

Thank you, hon Chair.

The ANC supports this Budget Vote.

The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M Mahlaule): Thank you.
Hon members, may I say that the acting Minister in the earlier presentation has left six minutes - I am advised.

So, when I didn’t stop him after five minutes, you must know that it’s because he now has 11 minutes.

May now call the hon the Acting Minister of Public Service and Administration.

Hon Minister?
Hon Minister?

The ACTING MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much hon Chairperson, I don’t know why hon Mc Gluwa was showing his face whether he was trying to intimidate UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 78 me.

I welcome all the inputs from all political parties both positive and negative.
These are meant to keep us on our toes.

I thank the IFP, the NFP and the ANC for supporting the budget vote.

We will consider the various inputs and we consider this as a constructive criticism, but the DA needs to be logical.

I want to support the Deputy Minister in saying that.

The Zondo Commission has been released in phases.

Its common knowledge that the then Deputy Chief Justice now the Chief Justice has requested the extension to finalise the recommendation.
Why should we pre-empt instead of having a full picture of all the recommendations in order to implement them holistically?

Those asking us to implement will be the first ones going to the public or even to court claiming that what we are implementing is a variance with the recommendations.

So, final recommendations are still ... it is therefore prudent for us to allow the Zondo Commission’s final report to be released.
This will allow the various government institutions, including the accounting institutions that would be like the PSC, the AG and so on to consider the report and respond appropriately.

Well the cases involving the public servants involved in the grant and fraud is dealt with by Sassa.
They are working UNREVISED HANSARD MINI PLENARY - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 12 MAY 2022 VOTE NO 11 - PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION, VOTE 7 - NATIONAL SCHOOL OF GOV AND VOTE 12 - PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Page: 79 together with without the Technical Assistance Unit, TAU, from Treasurer which forms part of that Task Team making sure that those officials are identified and are disciplined.

Then the TAU monitors to ensure departments take steps.
Well Chairperson, I thought of not wasting time maybe responding to hon Komane of the EFF.

There’s no critique they’ve ever offered.

They have never offered any critique.

They are just rejectionist on everything.

Hon Komane, yes I was a teacher and a good one for that matter.

I know myself.

I do not know as to whether that is the reason why you once more calling me to teach you on a difference between a developmental state and a developed state.

Those are two different things.


We are talking of a developmental state here not a developed state.

Otherwise Chair, I don’t want to waste a lot of time.

I want to thank all the members who have contributed to this particular debate.

Thank you very much.

Debate concluded.

The mini-plenary rose at 18:19.