Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698137294436.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 1 TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE HYBRID NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES ____ The Council met at 14:02.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The DEPUTY CHAIPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon delegates, before we proceed, I would like to remind delegates of the rules relating to virtual and hybrid meetings and sittings, in particular, subrule 21,22, and 23 of Rule 103, which provides as follows: The hybrid sitting constitute a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.

Delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces.
For purposes of a quorum, all the delegates who are logged onto the virtual platform shall be considered present.

Delegates must switch on their videos if they speak – those on the platform.

They should ensure that the microphones on their electronic devices UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 2 are muted and must always remain muted, unless they are permitted to speak.
All delegates in the Chamber must connect to the virtual platform as well as insert their cards to register on the Chamber system.

Delegates who are physically in the Chamber must use the floor microphones.

All delegates may participate in the discussion through the chat room.

In addition, I would like to remind delegates that the interpretation facility is active or is supposed to be active.
Permanent delegates, special delegates, the SA Local Government Association, Salga, representatives and members of the executive on the virtual platform are requested to ensure that the interpretation facility on their electronic devices is properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services.
Permanent delegates, special delegates, Salga representatives and members of the executive in the Chamber should use the interpretation instrument on their desk to access their interpretation facilities.
Hon delegates, before we proceed to motions, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Minister and the Deputy Minister of Employment and Labour, the Minister and the Deputy Minister of Public Service and Administration – if they are UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 3 here or are they on the platform - all permanent delegates, MECs or special delegates, Salga representatives as well as the administration to the House.
I am further being informed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice.

Where are we going?

We are here and we are not going anywhere.

Hon delegates, we will now proceed to the First Order.

CONSIDERATION OF LAND COURT BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND JUSTICE THEREON The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Before you start, hon Shaikh, members don’t remind me of things that happened when I was not here.

[Laughter.]

[Interjections.]


No, this one is saying: “There we go again.” Not that again, please leave me out of it.

Hon Shaikh, may you continue.

Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, greetings to the Minister and Deputy Minister who are here with us, and greeting s to all hon members of this august House.

The Land Court Bill was referred to the Select Committee on Security and Justice on 27 September 2022.
The committee, having considered and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 4 deliberated on the Bill, has agreed to the Bill with proposed amendments.

The Land Claims Court was established in 1996 and specialised in land claims and restitution referred by the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights, or directly through claimants or affected landowners.
One of the main challenges with the current Land Claims Court is the lack of permanency of judges presiding over matters before the court and the absence of a permanent seat which has contributed to the slow processing of and backlogs in land restitution claims to the dissatisfaction of land claimants.
With these challenges in mind, the Land Court Bill [seeks to provide for the establishment of a Land Court and appeals against decisions of the Land Court; make provision for the administration and judicial functions of the Land Court; provide for the concurrent jurisdiction of the Land Court and Magistrates’ Courts for certain land related matters; provide for mediation procedures; amend certain laws relating to the adjudication of land matters by other courts and provide for matters connected therewith.
With regard to the committee consideration of the bill and the public participation process, the select committee received a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 5 briefing on the Land Court Bill on 12 October 2022 and thereafter advertised the Bill for written comment on electronic platforms and in all official languages in print media from 17 October 2022 to 11 November 2022.

The committee received 13 submissions from various organisations and one individual.
Amongst the key issues raised in submissions were the tagging of the Bill; the scope of jurisdiction of the court; the appointment and competency of judges in the Land Court; the role and competency of assessors in the Land Court; the admissibility of hearsay evidence and that the role of magistrates should be set out clearly in the Bill.

On 15 March 2023, the select committee received a further briefing on the department’s responses to written submissions.
On 22 March 2023 the select committee received a briefing by the Parliamentary Legal Advisor on the tagging of the Land Court Bill as a section 75 Bill.

On 3 May 2023 the select committee received a briefing on the proposed amendments to the Land Court Bill and On 17 May 2023 the committee considered and unanimously adopted the proposed amendments.

The amendments include both substantive and technical or consequential amendments.
Many of the substantive amendments UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 6 took into account submissions made by commentators, particularly those made by the Land Claims Court judges.
With regard to substantive amendments, clause 8: Appointment of judges of the Land Court, the proposed amendment deals with any person who was not a judge of the High Court of South Africa or any court at the time of the appointment to the court does not automatically hold concurrent appointment to the court and the High Court, unless the Judicial Service Commission advises the President that such person must hold concurrent appointment.
Clause 12: Appointment of assessors, the proposed amendment deals with the appointment, qualifications and remuneration of assessors.

Clause 14: Rules governing procedure of court, the proposed amendment relates to rules to be made by the Rules Board for Courts of Law; and the application of the rules regulating the conduct of the proceedings of the several provincial and local divisions of the High Court to the Land Court.
Clause 25: Conferences, the proposed amendment to this clause deals with the orders that the Land Court may make in connection with such conferences.

Clause 27: Variation and rescission of orders of court, the proposed amendment deals with the circumstances under which the Land Court may vary or rescind any judgment or order.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 7 Clause 33: Removal of action or proceedings, the proposed amendment provides that the Land Court may order removal of action or proceedings from the Land Court sitting in one area to the court sitting in another area within the same province and from the Land Court to a division of the High Court or from a division of a High Court to the Land Court sitting in the same province.
Clause 34: Transitional arrangements, the proposed amendments deal with the officers of the Land Claims Court and the continuation of the rules of the Land Claims Court until they are replaced by rules made by the Rules Board for Courts of Law.

Item 9 of Schedule to Bill: Proposes amendments to the Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful Occupation of Land Act 19 of 1998.
With regard to technical or consequential amendments to the Bill, many of these amendments included changes to headings and numbering.

The affected clauses and sections of the bill are: clause 7, Part 2 clause 17, Part 3, clause 24, clause 26, clause 32, clauses 35 to 37; Long title, Arrangement of sections and the Schedule, except Item 9.
Committee members were pleased that the Bill will establish a new Land Court, which will indeed go a long way in ensuring UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 8 easier access to justice for those who have land claims.

Furthermore, this Land Court will ensure a more expedient process for land claimants.

Ultimately, the establishment of the Land Court will improve access to justice for citizens in South Africa.
The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the Land Court Bill B11B-2021, referred to it on 27 September 2022 and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, recommends that the Council pass the Bill with proposed amendments.

I thank you.

Question put.

Bill was agreed to in terms of section 75 of the Constitution.
PARLIAMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA’S DRAFT 2023-24 ANNUAL PERFORMANCE PLAN (Consideration of Report) Ms D G MAHLANGU: Deputy Chairperson, greetings to you and the Chairperson of the NCOP in absentia, as well as the Chief Whip of the NCOP.

Let me also take this opportunity to greet the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 9 Minister, the Deputy Minister and those who are in the virtual platforms, hon members, special delegates, good afternoon.
Afrikaans: Goeie middag.

English: Hon Deputy Chairperson, it is my pleasure to present to you the report of the Joint Standing Committee on the Financial Management of Parliament on the Parliament of the Republic of South Africa’s Draft 2023-24 Annual Performance Plan and budget.
The Committee considered the Annual Performance Plan, APP and budget in accordance with section 17(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act, which requires the executive authority to table planning and budgeting documents in Parliament for consideration by the oversight mechanism, which us, the Joint Standing Committee on Financial Management of Parliament, JSCFMP.
The 2023-24 APP will be the third towards the implementation of the Strategic Plan of the Sixth Parliament, which was UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 10 approved in 2020 calendar year.

It is a continuation of the changes that were first introduced in the 2021-22 financial year.

In that financial year, Parliament reduced its programmes from five to three budgetary programmes.
Since that time, performance has also been measured using the client satisfaction model rather than the more conventional method informed by the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation’s framework on strategic and annual performance plans.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, it is proposed that Parliament should receive a budget of R2,97 billion in 2023-24, increasing to R3,06 billion in 2024-25, and R3,14 billion in 202-/26.
Programme One is the administration programme, which provides strategic leadership, governance, management, corporate and support services to Parliament.

It consolidates three former programmes, namely Strategic Leadership and Governance, Administration and Support Services.

It is proposed that in 2023-24 this programme should receive a budget of R815,960 million.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 11 In 2023-24 the parliamentary service intends to address the prevailing and future ways of working.

Such efforts will include significant transformation and change in the approach to management, enabling policy, business processes, related skills, and rethinking facilities.

This is intended towards, over time, creating a new institutional culture driven by professionalism, service excellence and technology-enabled processes.
For greater effectiveness and efficiency, the parliamentary service will therefore develop and implement several interventions, most notably the following: A new business model to address the future way of working and build in the principles of e-Parliaments; redesign and optimise core and support business processes through technology, including the development of a legislative drafting system, an oversight monitoring and tracking system, a public involvement and engagement system, including petitions, submissions and representations, an ERP processes for decision-making, supporting infrastructure, networking and end-user tools and support; and policy, tools and facilities for remote employment conditions.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 12 The Legislation and Oversight programme provides for important support services for the effective functioning of the National Assembly, NA, and the National Council of Provinces, NCOP, including procedural, legal and content advice; information services and record keeping; and secretarial and support services for the houses and their committees.
The programme covers the core business of Parliament and focusses on the outputs, activities and inputs related to legislation and oversight functions.

In 2023-24, it is proposed that this programme receives a budget of R814, 820 million.

Amongst others, the institution intends implementing a new programming framework with a gradual shift towards dedicated constituency, committee and plenary weeks, as well as joint committee and intersectoral work.
The Parliamentary Service will also prepare a draft oversight plan, based on the input of office bearers and key stakeholders aimed at directing the oversight work of Parliament.

In respect of members’ capacity building the institution requires specific and needs-based capacity-building programmes to equip parliamentarians with the skills needed to perform UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 13 their functions.
Various interventions will be implemented to make this possible.

The 2017 Global Parliamentary Report indicates new trends in respect of research in respect of parliamentary activities.

Parliaments are establishing capacity to specialise and provide the information and research in respect of committee work, procedural research as well as budget and gender analyses.
Importantly – and most importantly - Parliament must increase its monitoring and evaluation on the implementation of its recommendations and resolutions.

We will be saying this over- and-over-again until we see it happening.

Providing a real- time country dashboard may help in holding the executive to account and keeping citizens informed on service delivery progress.

The involvement and participation of the public are critical to ensuring a participatory democracy and more responsive government.
Increasing public participation will require improved information dissemination and greater access to participate.

This, in turn, will require the use of more UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 14 official languages as we broadcasting on radio and using other platforms of communication.

As I conclude, Chairperson, we have several recommendations that we have made after having looked into the APP.

I think the Report is ATC.


Let me take this opportunity to thank the officials of Parliament as support staff, the members from both Houses for ever availing themselves and working on awkward hours and making it possible for us to produce this Report.

Thank you very much.

Question put.

Voting: [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Report was agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT OF PARLIAMENT ON THE PARLIAMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA’S 2022/23 THIRD QUARTER REPORT UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 15 Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson, I am once more honoured to be given this opportunity to stand before this august House to formally proceed in presenting on behalf of the Joint Standing Committee on Financial Management of Parliament, JSCFMP, on Parliament’s performance in the third quarter of 2022/23 ...
[Interjections.]

...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, can you ensure that your devices are on silent, please?

Ms D G MAHLANGU: ... which the committee interrogated in accordance with section 54 of the FMPPLA, Financial Management Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act.

Deputy Chairperson and hon members, the institution succeeded in meeting all targets under the administration programme, and spent 92% of the quarterly budget of R204,677 million budget.
In the period under review the institution succeeded in providing communications, technological and facilities-related support to committee meetings, oversight visits, public hearings, and plenaries in both Houses.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 16 Hon Chairperson and hon members, the organisational realignment project was in its second phase, which entails the micro-analysis and design of business operating models, processes, and positional structures to enable a macro- functional design.

The committee is looking forward to receiving more details in relation to this project.
Hon Chairperson and hon members, in respect of programme 2, legislation and oversight, all targets were exceeded.

Hon members 93% of the R236,955 million quarterly budget for this programme was spent.
Several successes were reported including the implementation of interventions focusing on mobilising stakeholders, and capitalising on the use of digital and preferred platforms, to improve the delivery of public education and information programmes and empower citizens to participate in parliamentary processes.

Hon Chairperson and hon members, you are reminded that there are no performance measures in respect of programme 3, associated services and transfers.
This remains a cause for concern, of which 99% of the R193,436 million budget for this UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 17 programme was transferred yet it is not reported how the money was spent by the associated entities of Parliament.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, the committee having considered the institution’s third quarter performance made the following recommendations, I will highlight the three.
That critical vacancies should be filled as a matter of urgency and that quarterly updates be provided to the relevant committee; the committee recommends that the implementation of the organisational re-alignment project be expedited and that a detailed briefing/report on it, as well as reasons for the apparent delay in finalising it be presented to the committee.
The process should be finalised before the start of the Seventh Parliament; and the institution should find ways of encouraging far greater participation in the client satisfaction surveys that now form the basis of performance management these should include mini satisfaction surveys completed for each committee activity to ensure that committees receive adequate support.
IsiNdebele: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 18 Ngisathokoza kini godu, malunga weNdlu ehloniphekileko.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
APPROPRIATION BILL (Policy debate) Budget Vote No 31 — Employment and Labour: The MINSTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Deputy Chair, members of this House, Ministers, Deputy Ministers present and those in the platform, senior managers of the department and its entities, ladies and gentlemen, “Ngiyakubona, groot man” [I acknowledge you, my senior].
Although there is peace in the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 19 House, Chairperson, as you have remarked today, but there will be no peace on the employment equity.

It is very clear.

Chairperson, I need to state it upfront, I do it because there are those who, when we are dealing with the serious matter of rebuilding the country that was totally destroyed by the racist apartheid government, they choose to play politics.
Amongst other, the Employment Act of 1998 was an attempt to implement a constitutional requirement, to bring about equity and equal opportunity in the workplace.

It was left to the goodwill of the employers to implement on a voluntary basis.

Socially responsible employers complied, and most did not.
Unfortunately, the annual reports of the Commission of Employment Equity continue to indicate that change was at its best extremely slow, especially at the higher levels of management this particularly to the costs of the Africans, coloureds, women and people with disabilities.

It was for this reasons that the amendments were drawn up to encourage employers to comply.
Because as the current government that believe very strongly in the ethos od nonracialism, nonsexism, democratic and united and prosperous South Africa.

We just cannot fold arms and watch when UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 20 designated groups are marginalised in the workplace.

We have to act.

I want to say to the DA who have appropriated all the unethical practices of erstwhile National Party, please stop it.
We are now at the phase where implementation guidelines have been developed and stakeholders have been consulted on the sector employment equity targets.

These have been published for public comments.

No amount of dirty politics is going to deter us.

We owe it to all South Africans, black and white, to practically translate the Constitution of our beloved country.
On employment, with the expansion of the mandate with the expansion of the mandate in 2019, and the need to reconfigure as Employment and Labour, the department's focus has been strengthened in regard to job creation and retention, particularly youth employment.

This has been done against the backdrop of difficult economic conditions, both nationally and internationally.
Although the economy is showing early signs of a rebound, the rate of recovery falls far short of what is required to create sustainable jobs for the most vulnerable in the country, particularly youth, people with disabilities and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 21 African women.

Despite the fact that there are more jobs the rate of unemployment remains high at 32,7% as at Quarter 1 of 2023.
One glimmer of light, there was an increase of 86 000 in the number of employed youth during the same period.

From the side of the department in order to contribute to the alleviation of unemployment, the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, Labour Activation Programme will continue to fund projects to maintain and create employment.
The temporary employer employee relief scheme, the normal temporary employer employee relief scheme, Ters, and not the one that was introduced during COVID-19, administered through the Council for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, will continue to provide support to distressed companies that seek to retain their employees.

The Employability Enhancement Programme is designed to integrate unemployed people back into the labour market.
An amount of 240 000 people will be recruited by the end of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF.

The Business Turnaround and Recovery programme, implemented through Productivity South Africa, enhances the productive capacity and operational efficiency of enterprises in order to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 22 preserve jobs and minimise retrenchments.
In the 2023-24 financial year, a number of new youth employment projects will be launched from June across the provinces.

We have ensured that 50% of all opportunities and subsequent employment goes to women and youth.

The UIF is currently reviewing its funding model to further increase support for job creation.

The UIF will continue to support the five billion partnerships with the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, to create and retain jobs.

The fund supports start-ups and existing businesses.
Productivity South Africa continues to promote employment growth and productivity through the competitiveness Improvement Services, CIS.

Over the past three financial years, the CIS programme provided support to small and medium- sized enterprises, SMMEs, in both the formal and informal economy.

We are now beginning to see the positive results of the turnaround strategies and labour activation programmes.
One hundred and eighty-six companies facing economic distress were supported and these interventions resulted in nearly 16 000 jobs being retained.

It is now mandatory for every UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 23 business that receives assistance from Ters to implement the business turnaround and recovery programme.

It is important to flag that the reconfiguration of the department will strengthen the focus on improved productivity as key to growth and jobs.
Productivity South Africa aims to support 37 250 enterprises, place 1 250 students only in the department and youth, and contribute a total of 113 000 jobs over the five years.

The department will also offer more than 200 unemployed graduates an internship opportunity this year extending the programme that was started during the last financial year.

These internship programmes are offered by other departments across government.
Supported employment enterprises, SEE, as part of the legislative mandate will increase employment of people with disabilities at its factories from the current 940 to 1 250 during the current year.

The department will also provide subsidies to nine organisations that will provide work opportunities to 1 041 workers with disabilities.
Focusing on unemployed youth, the department in partnership with the Presidency and the Government Technical Advisory UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 24 Centre, Gtac, will continue to support the development of the pathway management network, bringing together multiple online networks of training and employment opportunities also providing support to unemployed youth through the establishment of an Innovation Fund and support to a National Youth Service.
Wait and listen on the 16 June about these programmes.

Chairperson, other policy and legislative priorities during this administration include the following.

The National Labour Migration Policy a draft has been developed by the department in line with the decisions of the Ministers of Employment and Labour in the SADC region – in the SADC region.
The draft policy recognises the legitimate expectations of South Africans, at the same time aligned to constitutional requirements, international law and international agreements.

The Draft National Labour Migration Policy and supporting Employment Services Amendment Bill were approved by Cabinet for public comment in February 2022.

The policy has been revised accordingly.

We are currently engaging Nedlac stakeholders on the documents.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 25 Regarding the National Employment Policy, the department in conjunction with the International Labour Organisation has developed a Draft National Employment Policy, NEP, to address the country's persistently high levels of unemployment to support goals.

The draft NEP is being shared with the economic departments before it is presented to at the Economic cluster and the Cabinet.
The National Minimum Wage ... IsiXhosa: ... abayifuni lena... English: ... was designed to reduce inequality in the national labour market and to establish a threshold for workers' remuneration.

It is not a living wage, and I must stress it.

It has already benefited about six million workers.

These workers are generally unorganised and vulnerable to exploitation.

For the past three years the national minimum wage level has been adjusted to maintain its value relative to inflation.
Furthermore, the minimum wage for the farm sector was equalised with the general national minimum wage rate in 2021 UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 26 and the minimum wage in the domestic sector was equalised in 2022.

The National Minimum Wage Commission monitors the impact of the national minimum wage on employment and wages.

The large scale job losses foretold by naysayers has not happened.
For marginal employers who genuinely cannot pay, they can apply for an exemption.

IsiXhosa: Asibazi aba bathethayo ukuba bathethela oobani na ... English: ... because employers are also represented in the commission.

We have a basket of the Labour Law amendments that we have placed before the Nedlac for negotiation.

From time to time we have to review our laws to ensure their effectiveness, as whether they worth the paper the paper they are written on.
The desire of my department is to conclude these amendments as soon as possible given that the thrust of these amendments are intended to contribute to job creation and the ease of doing business especially for small business.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 27 As part of routine activities to strengthen decent work, for 2021-22, my department extended 24 collective agreements to nonparties covering one and a quarter million employees in different sectors.
These agreements cover wages, social security benefits and working conditions - improving the livelihoods of vulnerable employees and their families.

IsiXhosa: Andiyazi aba bangayifuniyo ukuba bathetha noobani na ... English: ... reached together between the employers and the employees.

Equal opportunity in the labour market is at the core of decent work and workplace transformation.

The Occupational Health and Safety Amendment Bill is due for completion by September 2023 for engagement with Nedlac.
We trust that proposed steep fines will curb high levels of noncompliance by some employers.

Let me repeat it, we trust that proposed steep fines will curb high levels of noncompliance by some employers.

Because some of them they budget for it.

They budget for not complying.

They know that they will just get a slap on a hand and pay R10 000 or R100 000 when they are UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 28 making millions.

They know that is nothing.


Remember the object here is to reduce workplace accidents and diseases which in turn also increases productivity necessary for economic growth.

The President assented to the Compensation for Occupational Injuries and Diseases, COID, Amendment Bill on 7 April 2023.
Benefits include the inclusion of domestic workers in the category of employees entitled to occupational injury benefits, the introduction of rehabilitation and return to work programmes, support the reintegration of injured workers with disabilities into the labour market and to enable the Compensation Fund to obtain the requisite resources for inspection of workplaces and to develop preventative programmes with employers that will contribute to safer workplaces.
On social dialogue, the department and its entities, led by Nedlac, are also charged with strengthening social dialogue.

Last year, this mandate focused on the establishment of a new social compact.

Much was learned from this process, with the focus now on developing specific compacts by economic sector some of which have been successfully concluded.
These efforts UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 29 are now focused on defined priority areas, currently are the energy, transport and crime.

The National Economic Development and Labour Council planned activities for 2023-24 include progress with labour law reforms which focus on improving the effectiveness of labour laws as well as extending them to atypical workers and emerging issues such as the future of work, remote work and the just transition.
On inspection and enforcement, it is all very well to devise good policies and laws, but they also have to be implemented and enforced.

The department's inspection and enforcement services - labour inspectors - have been expanded and strengthened in recent years, particularly since the COVID-19 pandemic resulting in over 100 000 Health and Safety inspections in the last year.

In relation to Employment Equity laws our inspectors are currently focused on the JSE listed companies to ensure compliance.
For 23 we referred 238 companies to court for failure to comply.

And we are not going to reverse people UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 30 making profits, huge million and billions, byt do not respect the workers’ rights and the laws of this country.

National roving teams are conducting a blitz programme focused on high risk and problematic sectors to ensure compliance with the National Minimum Wage and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act.
During the last year, the department carried out over 300 000 inspections seeking to promote compliance, fair labour practices, decent work and a safe workplace.

The inspection and enforcement services, IES, also seeks to realise the Durban Call to Action to combat child labour and to advance International Labour Organisation, ILO, recommendation 2004 which, among others, seeks to improve the rights and conditions of workers in the informal sector.
On access and service, good legislation and plans can be compromised by inadequate access and service.

Historical and systemic challenges within the two funds, the Compensation Fund and UIF, are being addressed.

Relevant professional capacity has been in-sourced to strengthen the programmes to tackle negative audit findings, and for a more fundamental and thorough going review of systems architecture across the two funds.
These interventions will be strengthened during the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 31 current year.

Despite the challenges the funds continue to provide critical social security protection to workers.

The UIF and the Compensation Fund paid benefits of R4 billion in the 2022-23 financial year.

The benefits consist of monthly pensions, salaries, funeral benefits and medical expenses.
The Compensation Fund has developed a tertiary bursary programme for dependents of permanently injured and deceased injured workers.

The UIF will strengthen monitoring of its investments with the Public Investment Corporation to ensure due diligence.

We are also to report significant progress in recovering COVID-19 Ters funds wrongly or fraudulently paid.
The Special Investigating Unit, SIU, Asset Forfeiture Unit, the President’s Fusion Centre, working with the UIF's Follow the Money programme, have recovered R61 million as of 31 March 2023.

There have been 60 arrests with 12 individuals sentenced including a Ms Moremi sentenced to 10 years imprisonment and Mr LP Gumede sentenced to 20 years.

A large number of additional matters are still under investigation.
I need to flag the truly national footprint of the department with nine provincial offices, 126 labour centres, 460 UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 32 satellite offices and contact points delivering services across provinces.

This is increasing supplemented by online and digital services saving client’s time and money.

We will shortly officially announce partnership to provide the free ATM functionality to print the SIA forms.
It is also the case that all data and services for UIF, Compensation Fund, CF, and public employment services and labour inspections are recorded, analysed and disintegrated to the provincial level.

Finally, I need to mention South Africa's role as the presidency of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, Brics, during the current year.
The second Brics Employment Working Group technical met recently in Port Alfred to prepare for the Brics summit to be hosted by South Africa in Durban later this year.

The technical group is focusing, amongst others, on the relationship between productivity and employment.

Mr M I RAYI: Greetings to the Minister, the Deputy Minister, permanent and special delegates.

Good afternoon.
Good afternoon.

The ANC government in South Africa has implemented several transformation and productive labour policies over the past 29 years of the democratic dispensation and the end of apartheid.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 33 These changes were aimed at addressing the historical injustices and inequalities faced by workers during the apartheid era and creating a more equitable, just and inclusive labour system that did not discriminate against gender, race or class.

The ANC government has always appreciated the importance of workers and their contribution to their respective workplaces and the economy at large.
The ANC government introduced labour laws and regulations to protect the rights of workers.

The Labour Relations Act and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act were enacted to ensure fair treatment, minimum wage standards and safe working conditions for all employees.

These laws also established mechanisms for resolving labour disputes and protecting workers from unfair labour practices.
The ANC government implemented the Employment Equity Act to promote equal opportunities being conscious of acknowledging our past and to eliminate discrimination in the workplace.
The Act requires employers to implement affirmative action measures to address historical imbalances and ensure the representation of previously disadvantaged groups, predominantly focusing on black South Africans, women, and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 34 people with disabilities in the workforce.

The ANC government expanded social protection programmes to provide support for vulnerable workers.
The Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, was strengthened to provide income support for workers who become unemployed, while the Compensation for Occupational Injuries and Diseases Act, COIDA, established a system for compensating workers who suffer work-related injuries or illnesses.

It is this government that emphasised the importance of skills development and training to enhance the employability of South African workers.
The Skills Development Act and the National Skills Development Strategy were introduced to promote skills development programmes, apprenticeships and vocational training initiatives to address the skills gap and empower workers with the necessary competencies for the job market.

The state has fully recognised and acknowledged the role of trade unions in protecting the rights and interests of workers in the public and private sector.
The right to organise and form trade unions is enshrined in the Constitution and the Labour Relations Act provides a framework for collective bargaining between employers and trade unions.

This allows UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 35 workers to negotiate better wages, improved working conditions, and other benefits.
We can concur that despite these transformations there are ongoing challenges in the labour market such as; the high unemployment rate, informal employment, income inequality and paying foreign nationals less to keep wages low.

The ANC government continues to work towards addressing these issues through various policies and programmes aimed at promoting job creation, economic growth and social inclusion.
The ANC government in South Africa has made significant efforts to improve labour standards and practices.

It is important to note that the journey towards ensuring correct labour standards and practices is an ongoing process.

In this process the government and the country at large has faced numerous challenges and continues to work towards achieving a fully inclusive and fair labour market.

This government can proudly and boastfully say that there have been profound achievements in the labour market.
The ANC government has implemented policies, including Broad- Based Black Economic Empowerment, B-BBEE, to address historical inequalities and promote economic transformation.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 36 The Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, B-BBEE encourages companies to meet certain criteria such as employment equity and skills development to ensure a more inclusive labour market.
The government has fostered social dialogue between labour unions, employers and other stakeholders.

Platforms such as the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, allow for collaboration and negotiation on labour- related matters.

This Council is located directly in the Department of Employment and Labour.

The improvement of the economy and various socioeconomic issues we face as a country remains the main focus of the ANC government.
This government has unequivocally chosen to do this through the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan.

A plan that aims to revitalise and stabilise the economy post the COVID-19 pandemic.

This Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan highlights the adverse levels of abject poverty, unemployment and inequality.

One of the objects that need to be achieved through the Economic Reconstruction and Recovery Plan, ERRP, is economic transformation.
South Africa has historically relied heavily on sectors such as mining and agriculture.

As we go through the ERRP, we need UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 37 to diversify our dependency on sectors.

Economic transformation efforts should focus on diversifying the economy by promoting the growth of industries such as the manufacturing, tourism, information technology and services.
This diversification can reduce dependence on a few sectors, create new job opportunities and enhance economic resilience.

The government has been supporting the growth of small and medium-sized enterprises and it understands that these enterprises are vital for economic transformation.

The state has provided support by providing access to finance, mentorship, business development and simplifying regulatory processes.

By fostering an enabling environment for Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs.
South Africa has been able to stimulate entrepreneurship, innovation and job creation.

Enhancing skills development and education is crucial for economic transformation too.

By investing in technical and vocational training programmes, promoting entrepreneurship and aligning education with industry needs, South Africa has developed a greater pool of skilled individuals that meet the demands of emerging sectors, attracting investments and stimulating economic growth.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 38 The economic transformation and job creation are crucial pillars in supporting the implementation of the ERRP in South Africa.

By diversifying the economy, investing in skills development, supporting SMMEs, promoting infrastructure development and attracting investments.

South Africa can accelerate its economic recovery, reduce unemployment and promote inclusive growth.
A capable, ethical and developmental state is a state that we should always aspire to be.

This goal should not be compromised, because through this type of state we can boldly be a state that is effective and efficient in carrying out its functions and responsibilities such as healthcare, education, infrastructure and security.
This type of state is a well-functioning institution which composes of competent civil servants and efficient administrative systems which adheres to a set of moral principles and values in its actions and decision-making processes.

Our country should continue prioritising the wellbeing and rights of its citizens, respects the rule of law, promote transparency and accountability and combat corruption.
We aspire to be a capable, ethical and developmental state that focuses on fostering economic growth, social progress and sustainable development.

We should always UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 39 implement our policies and strategies that aim to improve the living standards of our citizens and address socioeconomic disparities.
The filling of funded posts is important in producing an effective and efficient state because it helps the state in maintaining productivity, improve economic growth, building a talented workforce, boosting employee morale and engagement and ensuring continuity.

It is a critical aspect of effective human resource management and contributes to the overall success of the state.
The state should always make sure that it is not overstaffed due to financial constraints but in the same vigour it should also make sure it is not understaffed which can prevent it from meeting its work programme targets.

Corruption in its numerous manifestations should be condemned and eradicated from our moral fibre as a society.
Corruption hampers economic growth and development, it diverts resources away from productive sectors, undermines fair competition and creates an uneven playing field for businesses.

Eliminating corruption helps foster a transparent and conducive environment for investment, entrepreneurship and economic progress.
Corruption also deprives resources from essential UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 40 public services such as healthcare, education and infrastructure which are crucial for improving the wellbeing of citizens, particularly the marginalised and vulnerable populations.

By eliminating corruption, funds can be directed towards poverty alleviation programs and social welfare initiatives.
Corruption affects good governance as it erodes public trust, weakens institutions and undermines the rule of law.

By eliminating corruption governments can enhance transparency, accountability and integrity in public administration, fostering a culture of good governance.

The Minister of Employment and Labour has taken effective action against corruption and most cases of about 80% have been concluded in six months.
The Department of Employment and Labour has quite a few entities that work under it so that the department can reach its goals.
One of them is the Commission for Conciliation Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, which is mandated to advance social justice and fairness in the workplace by providing services for institution building, education, training, development and effective administration that are ethical, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 41 high quality, creative and cost effective.
Another entity is Productivity SA, which is mandated by government, Organised Labour and Organised Business to increase the economy’s productive capacity and improve the competitiveness of South Africa.
These entities as well and others under the department are there to enable and assist the department in achieving the greater goal of the ANC government, which is a better life for all, a life where everyone is able to prosper and reach their dreams in a democratic, nonracist, nonsexist and just South Africa.

Job preservation and job creation is the main focus of the department’s programmes and its entities.

It is the focus of this budget policy debate.


The ANC supports the Budget Vote of the Employment and Labour.

Thank you, very much.

Ms H S BOSHOFF: The signing of the Employment Equity Amendment Act by the President has left many with a bitter taste as it feels as if this country, instead of moving forward, is stagnating by implementing apartheid regime regulations.
Regulations that do not have the best interests of all South Africans at heart, nor takes us a step closer out of the ruin your governing party has subjected us all to.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 42 This latest amendment is nothing but a core part your government’s racial nationalist agenda which in the end will do little to nothing to attract investment.
If, as you and your government say, South Africa is seen by the world as an emerging market with great prospects, we would have seen a surge in investments.

The contrary is occurring, we are being shunned from the likes of the G7 as we no longer speak for the African continent.
Hon Minister, to attract large-scale investment, South Africa is its own worst enemy with the likes of government-decreed racial quotas, power cuts, high rates of crime and corruption and finally a deteriorating infrastructure crisis.

The tightening of laws on racial quotas add to the long list of deterrents.

Minister, why are you and your government forever laying barbed wire and deep trenches in the path of investors?

I agree, transformation is needed, the imbalance of the past must be addressed.
But to resort to changing outcomes of society disincentives individual responsibility and the importance of hard work.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 43 You cannot deny that quotas on racial hiring will stand out as an impediment as companies with a workforce of more than 50 employees must and should not hire, based on race and not merit.
Furthermore, the signing in of this Act provides you Minister with a large degree of ministerial discretion when it comes to racial quotas, more reporting requirements for companies and last but not least tough penalties for breaking the law.

Under the newly signed act, the minimum penalty is two percent of turnover, and the maximum is 10%.

This, Minister, is nothing but a strong incentive for companies to remain below the radar and only expand on their labour force as a last resort.
Would you not agree that this is a perverse incentive in a country with one of the world’s highest unemployment rate, which as you know stands at 32,9%, you should drop your head in shame.

Furthermore, this will more probably lead to employers doing a pencil test to escape any fines that could bankrupt them.

This pencil test is profoundly and antithetical to non-racialism which is a section 1 constitutional value.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 44 Companies that employ less than 50 people remain exempt from the Act.

However, all firms that wish to sell to the government must still receive a compliance certificate that they meet the racial hiring quotas.

How will this be monitored, hon Minister?

One peculiar outcome is that companies could face the prospect of endlessly having to shift the racial composition of their workforces to comply with your whimsical ideas.
By shifting the racial composition, it will negatively impact on promotion and remuneration for years of loyalty and experience.

This will in all probability lead to the most-qualified setting up their own firms or immigrating to countries where they can reach their potential, leaving this country with another skills deficit.

Institutional memory and experience in firms will be lost.

It will not advance the poor but will rather hurt them by choking off the potential investment growth and jobs.
It will not promote equality; it will only increase the large gap between the current elitists and the 11,3 million black people mired in unemployment and destitution.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 45 Minister, another negative with this new Act is that foreign companies that do not go along with government directives on racial hiring could and will be charged with discriminatory practices in their home countries.

This is ludicrous.
This is ludicrous.

Would you not say that all domestic anti-discrimination laws will be considerably damaging in your attempts at racial engineering?

I would say so.

The banning of the employment of coloured and Indian South Africans in certain economic sectors and provinces should be vehemently rejected by all.

This regulation repeats the painful apartheid-era Group Areas Act where certain races were confined to specific areas and jobs.
And this coming from a party that will campaign on the liberation of South Africa from apartheid next year, is disgusting.

I’m sure the racial groups you are discriminating against will not be too nice to you at the elections next year.

This new act will be challenged by various stakeholders of which the DA is one.

Why do I say so?

Because Minister, this act will undoubtedly lead to more unemployment and more UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 46 poverty.
It will inflame racial tensions, lead to a flight of skills, and trigger further divestment in an economy where seven out of ten young people already cannot find work.

Finally, Minister and members, this piece of legislation is so complex and not quite understandable and plausible.
It is also common knowledge that the Minister, his party and his department are not owning up to their dismal failure in creating a conducive environment for job creation and are seeking every single other avenue to secure voters for next year’s election.

For your information Minister, Deputy Minister and the ANC, voters are well informed and will stand by those who will fight you and your party from implementing this racial piece of legislation.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Setswana: Rre K M MMOIEMANG: Ke go tlotlile Motlatsa Modulasetulo wa Ntlo ya Kgaolo ya diPorofense.

English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 47 Let me also extent a word of greetings to hon members, and a special word of greetings to the Minister, the hon Deputy Minister and the public at large.
Allow me to rise on behalf of the ANC to pledge the support of Budget Vote of Employment and Labour, hon Deputy Chairperson, because its mandate include assisting in the elimination of unemployment, poverty and inequality in the country.

This is done through the formulation and the implementation of policies and programmes which ensure job creation, preservation and foreseeing compliance with labour laws and regulations as well as creating reputable and conducive work environments.
The Deputy Minister and the Minister must continue doing their progressive work and not be deterred by those that lost three million voters in the last local government election, hon Minister.

The Department’s work is carried out in partnership with a variety of stakeholders, including provincial governments who play an important role in the implementation of the department’s policies.
In the implementation of these policies provinces must tailor this to the province unique circumstances and prioritize issues and goals.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 48 Hon Deputy Chairperson, this intergovernmental collaboration, enables the department to better align its strategies and ensure far-reaching consensus.

The policy priorities of the department are committed to assisting people in making informed work related decisions.
Simplifying access to developmental programmes, placing job seekers and digitalising the department’s systems and making the job seeking process more convenient for the unemployed.

Furthermore, it is charged with improving collaboration, with stakeholders and ensuring that business adhere to the department’s regulations.

Therefore, must continue to transform this sector, hon Minister.

The ANC-led government remains steadfast in finding creative solutions to create jobs.
According to the ANC’s elective conference resolutions and I quote: We must transform and grow the economy so that it creates jobs and empower Africans in particular and blacks in general, particularly the youth, women and people who live in townships and rural areas.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 49 There is nothing new and we have always defined the content for our national democratic revolutions as the emancipation of black people in general and African people in particular.

Even their conditions which we find ourselves as the historically disadvantaged people.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, we must introduce new measures to cut the red tape.
Ensure small enterprises, co-operatives and informal business, particularly those owned by women and young people, have effective means of raising finance and accessing markets.

The department’s policies priorities are clear and anticipated to expedite job creation, enhance employment prospect and ensure job creation.

However, mechanisms must be put in place to ensure that there are adequate monitoring and evaluation systems for programmes.
This necessitates ongoing policy evaluation and modification to allow for appropriate adjustment to distinct conditions in order to accommodate the beneficiaries needs and concerns.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, one of the priority areas of the ANC- led government as articulated in its policies and the National UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 50 Development Plan Vision 2030, is the elimination of the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment.
According to the ANC’s 54th National Conference, slow economic growth recovery threatens the economic development of the country.

Despite the government’s efforts to address the socioeconomic challenges, major challenges and perpetual rise in cost of living impact on the life circumstances for the majority of our people.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, all sectors and stakeholders including government, business, civil society and labour, must work together to combat unemployment.
Together these stakeholders must develop co-ordinated strategies to address changing economic conditions and labour market dynamics.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, we have seen this during the COVID-19 pandemic where there were limited economic activities, we saw most businesses collapsing.

However, in response to that the ANC-led government through the Unemployment Insurance Fund launched the COVID-19 Temporary Employer Employee Relief Scheme, Ters.
This scheme as indicated was to ease the financial burden on business by assisting them with funds to continue with operations and pay employees.

The support UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 51 provided enabled employees and families to sustain their livelihoods and preserve their jobs in instances where businesses would have let them go due to constraint revenue generation.
It is important hon Deputy Chairperson to reflect on what the hon Minister said on the two-years-anniversary of the land short Ters and I quote: The COVID-19 Ters was made after extensive deliberation and concurrence with social partner at National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac.

Equally, the pronouncement was in line with the department’s mission which aligns among others reducing unemployment and poverty through policies and programmes developed in consultation with social partners.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, it is important to note that the ANC- led government has made remarkable strides in the development and the implementation of policies which seeks to eliminate racism, inequality and promote social cohesion.

However, despite these efforts the legacies of colonialisation and apartheid, continue to be deeply entrenched in our country, economically, socially, institutionally and systematically.
The reversal of these legacies is nuanced and comes with both UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 52 progress and segments.

The country still faces numerous challenges such as the triple challenges and the ANC-led government remains committed towards the elimination of all forms of oppression and the realisation of a better life for all.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, in our interface with the department, on 25 April 2023, a reflection was made on their Programme 1,2,3 and 4 which encapsulate administration, inspection and enforcement services, public employment service and labour industrial relations.
Indeed these priority areas, as the ANC, we concur that they cover a variety of factors related to employment, development, reservation, compliance with laws and regulations and assuring the representation and protection of the rights of marginalised groups.

Marginalised group and I underline hon Deputy Chairperson, so that we must not be misled by parties that are entrapped in the politics of race.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, the priority areas further demonstrate the essence of oversight mechanism relating to how initiatives are funded, sustained and improved through monitoring and evaluation mechanism as well as through collaborative efforts.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 53 Indeed stabilisation of entities such as the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, and the Compensation Fund are quite critical to support the workers, particularly the downtrodden, the working class and the poor.

Productivity SA, is critical in supporting economic efficiency as well.

The working class and the poor.


These entities can provide employees with financial assistance, immediate conflicts, promote and a secure healthy work environment and increased output.

These factors combine work together to create conditions that are conducive and favourable for long-term employment prospects, economic growth and the creation of new jobs.
Effective to utilise the Department of Employment and Labour entities as avenues for employment, growth, governance and financial management must be improved and enhanced.

Hon House Chairperson, the department has oversight over various entities supported employment enterprises, Public Servants Association, PSA, the Nedlac, Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA.
The effectiveness transparency management of financial expenditure and investor confidence in these entities can be enhanced through good governance and financial management.

This could UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 54 result and the successful execution of employment creation and preservation of policies, programmes and economic development.
Hon House Chairperson the high cost of living has direct impact on the lives of the workers, since it reduces their financial wellbeing and buying power inflation.

Inflation is a major contributor that affects the high cost of living by raising the costs of goods and services.

Workers are currently feeling the effects of inflation due to the rising costs of electricity, health care, fuel, transportation, food and so on.

Furthermore, the geopolitics has an impact on the cost of life.
For example the Russia Ukraine war has negatively affected our import of goods and fuel costs.

Therefore, the financial contributions of some of the entities of the department includes the UIF, that workers pay out if they lose their jobs or are unable to work due to maternity, illness, etc, from a portion of contributions workers through monthly deductions.
Secondly, the Compensation Fund is able to offer compensation and benefits to workers who incur work related illnesses, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 55 injuries or fatalities.
The CCMA is critical in the maintenance of the work relationship through mediation over disputes between the employer and employee for the intention to arrive at a mutually agreeable resolution with no loss of jobs where amicable resolution cannot be achieved then CCMA can ensure compensation for any wrongdoing of the employees.
Hon House Chairperson, the Department of Employment and Labour has important objectives including investing in the employment creation enhancing the lives of workers by focussing on matching job seekers with suitable employment opportunities, investing in occupational health and safety initiatives, ensuring fair employment practices, protecting workers rights and promoting inclusive role.

The department’s entities can contribute to an economic growth to social development and improved livelihoods.
These entities may contribute to making people’s lives better fostering economic growth and creating a society that is more equitable and prosperous through this initiative.

Indeed hon House Chairperson, in our interaction with the department, there are three recommendations that are quite critical for the next coming 11 months.
Critical to that hon UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 56 House Chairperson is improving the performance and exploring alternative funding and financing sources to support the growth and expansion of the supported employment enterprises.
Ensuring the continuity and the sustainability of the supported employment enterprises initiative is critical as it plays a vital role in fostering inclusivity, obtaining more financial resources pivotal to this success which can increase and improve training programmes, assist marginalised groups, enhanced skills development, job placement, promote the use of technologies.
The second area that we will be focussing on in the coming 11 months is that the Minister of Employment and Labour must engage the Minister of Finance to consider additional resource allocation to scale up spending in the labour market intervention programmes to address unemployment, poverty and alternative.
This is quite critical because we need comprehensive strategies with quantifiable outcomes that are required to secure additional resource allocation for scaling up spending in the labour market intervention programmes intended to address unemployment the department to scale co- ordination of the employment programme.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 57 The ANC policy affirm the recommendations that labour market intervention programme market cannot be solely placed in the public sector.

That collaboration with the private sector postsecondary institutions and other relevant stakeholders should be strengthened.
That the ANC-led government further affirms the need for the Minister through the department should strengthen policy implementation, monitoring evaluation and reporting in order to improve co-ordinations.

In conclusion, the primary benefit of the province-led policy implementation and job creation is a reduction in unemployment and poverty.

As a result of this policies you will may be able to easily identify and apply for an employment.

Their skills development and job placement become simpler.
Hon House Chairperson, the ANC supports the Budget Vote of Employment and Labour.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Mmoiemang.

Hon colleagues, when we started the Deputy Chairperson indicated that the delegates on the virtual platform at all times must have their electronic devices muted.

You only unmute once you have been allowed by the presiding officer.
I do not know Acting Chief Whip, you have UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 58 to engage hon Moss from the Western Cape, consistently even when the Minister started and with almost all the speakers.

It is a disruption now.

It is a final warning and if it is going to happen again, I am going to kick her out of the platform.

For it is a disruption what is consistently happening, hon Moss.

Can you remain muted!


I will now invite the hon Mokause, as the next speaker on the virtual platform.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: House Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed budget for the Department of Employment and Labour.

We reject the budget of a department which is responsible for a decade-long trend of rising unemployment which has continued unabated, without any viable solutions to speak of.
Just last week, Statistics SA published its First Quarter Labour Force Survey for 2023, which revealed an increase in the number of unemployed people to 11,2 million.

Black African women remain the most vulnerable, with an unemployment rate of 39,9%, which is 4,5% points higher than the national average for women at 35,4%.
This is a demonstration of the systemic and structural economic barriers which continue to hamper the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 59 economic participation of black African women in this country.

The black African population suffers an unemployment rate of 37.2%, higher than the national average and other population groups, signifying the lack of economic transformation post the apartheid government.
Most worrying is how 3,7 million young people aged 15-24 years are not in employment, education or in training institutions.

This is a worrying factor for the incoming government of the EFF.

Graduate unemployment has also increased in the last decade under the ruling party which points to a betrayal of our educated youth, who were promised a brighter future with their degrees but now face a barren employment landscape.
This Minister has offered no support for South African graduates or put any measures in place to track graduates and assess their needs.

South Africa’s unemployment rate has remained the highest in the world.

The streets of KwaZakhele, Qonce, Duncan Village, Mdantsane, and Gcuwa in the Eastern Cape and throughout South Africa are all filled with black youth roaming the streets without purpose.
Year in and year out, Statistics SA draws a very scary picture of the government’s failure to create jobs for South Africans.

The reality is that, with the current UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 60 government still in power, there will never be any change in terms of the current state of employment.

We are losing young people to hopelessness because of the lack of industrial development in South Africa.
The youth of our country are left to drown in depression and our graduates are on the streets begging for any kind of job that might come their way.

That is a disgrace to a black child.

The EFF has in previous Budget Votes made an appeal of a leadership which will pass legislation that will ensure that all government departments and all public institutions employ a minimum of 40% of people between the ages of 18 and 35.

That has not happened.


We need to pass legislation that will ensure that all government departments and all public institutions spend 50% of their procurement budget on youth-owned businesses.

Not on tenderpreneurs who are funding the ruling party.

We need to ensure that all private corporations employ a minimum of 35% of people between the ages of 18 and 35.
The EFF persistently offers feasible solutions to the mounting unemployment problem in South Africa, yet these suggestions seem to be disregarded by the ruling party.
What is required is a leadership which will advocate for the nationalisation of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 61 strategic sectors of the economy, building state and government capacity, delivery of free quality education, health, houses and sanitation and massive protracted industrial development to create millions of sustainable job opportunities.
All of the above are necessary changes to bring in place so that we may have a positive employment impact in the long term.

Minister, wake up.

Implement all our proposals and make it easy for the EFF when they take over the government come 2024 so that we run a smooth government to take South Africans out of unemployment and to deliver economic freedom in our lifetime.

As the EFF celebrates its 10th year this year 2023, many said we will not make it.

We are here 10 years later.


we urge all workers and the unemployed to join us in demanding immediate action to stabilise the electricity supply, enhance funding for institutions like Statistics SA, and initiate a path towards authentic economic recovery.

House Chair, as the EFF, we reject this Budget Vote.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let me acknowledge and welcome the Hon Minister of Public Service and Administration, Hon Kieviet, to the NCOP and the officials of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 62 the Department of Public Service and Administration to the NCOP.
Ms S S MBONYANA (Eastern Cape): Thank you very much, hon Chairperson, good afternoon to you, hon members of the NCOP, Minister of Employment and Labour, allow me to say all protocols observed, hon members, I stand before you to welcome the budget tabled by the Department of Employment and Labour through hon Minister Thulas Nxesi.

The issues of employment and labour are pressing issues that have received the undivided attention of our government.
We find ourselves confronted with significant challenges of unemployment, particularly when it comes to our youth.

It should also concern all of us, hon members, that we have young graduates who are unemployed, and large number of young people who are not in employment, education or training.

We cannot have the energy of such large number of young people not engaged in productive work.
It is in the interest of both the government and the private sector to devise means to engage the unemployed youth in productive work and skills programs.

From the start of the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 63 Sixth Administration, hon members, the President outlined that the economic growth and job creation was key priorities of the Sixth administration.
To fulfil this priority, the President initiated the South African Investment Conference in 2018 to attract investors into our country which would in return contribute to economic growth and job creation.

He set a target of 1,2 trillion over five years amid a lot of scepticism from doubting Thomas’s, but guess what, hon members, last month at the annual South African Investment Conference, the country reached just above 1,5 trillion investment pledges.
These emboldens the President to set a new target of 2 trillion over the next five years.

I am highlighting these because through the investments that our country has gained since 2018, we have been able to see a reduction in unemployment numbers with more people getting employment, particularly between the fourth quarter of 2020 and the fourth quarter of 2022.
In my province, the positive net effect of the investments that we have received such as Aspen, Isuzu have led to an unprecedented decline in the unemployment rate in our province.

The unemployment rate in our province was sitting at 47,9% in the fourth quarter of 2020 and it was at 42,1% in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 64 quarter four of 2022.
In the 2023 quarter one, labour force survey results released last week, the unemployment rate in our province was down by 2,1% to 40,0%.

This means that in the first quarter of 2023, we had 43 000 new jobs in the formal sector and 17 000 new jobs created in the informal sector as contributors to the drop in the unemployment rate.

So, we agree with you, hon Minister that there is a glimmer of hope in our fight against unemployment.
Hon Chairperson, we welcome the interventions that have been made by the Sixth administration to address the youth unemployment in the country.

An initiative such as the Presidential Youth Employment Initiatives have really assured our youth that we are a government that cares about the pride of the young people.
In our province the implementation of phase four of the Presidential Youth Employment Initiative is underway, employing more than 33 000 young people in our schools as education assistance, reading champions and handyman.

This is the program that has made a serious dent on youth unemployment and we must continue with it, as ANC-led government, as a state-led initiative to get our people working.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 65 We must also be alive, hon Chairperson, to the fact that we have people who are over 30 years of age who feel excluded in government programs and employment initiatives.

In our quest to address youth unemployment, we must not unintentionally exclude other productive citizens of our country from contributing to the nation-building.
We must strike a balance between introducing new energy and ideas in workplaces, but also you need to appreciate the wisdom and experience of the older workforce.

We welcome the pronouncement by the Minister that by 2023-24 financial year, the Department of Employment and Labour will launch a number of new youth employment projects from June across the provinces.

Hon Chairperson, I hope that the allocation of those youth employment projects will reflect where the greatest need is.
The Eastern Cape sits with the highest youth unemployment rate in the country and therefore should benefit the most from your programs, hon Minister, if we are using empirical evidence to take decisions.

Hon Minister is spot on when he says that his department must not lose sight of its traditional mandate to regulate the labour market and labour relations.
The ANC-led government has UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 66 been central in creating and protecting sound labour relations that put the interest of the working class first.

We are committed to advance those gains even further.

We acknowledge the pressing need to enhance the structure of our work labour market to absorb the vast pool of untapped talent.
We are creating an economy that is not only capable of generating employment but also poised to absorb the levels of unemployment, especially in our rural provinces such as Eastern Cape.

One of the foremost challenges we are facing is the low levels of education in certain regions, leading to a lack of skills and opportunities for the local population.

Furthermore, hon Chairperson, there is this stagnation in the economy, hindering job creation and exacerbating the unemployment crisis.
Additionally, we observe a concentration of industry only in a few sectors further limiting the possibilities for employment, growth and diversification.

To overcome these challenges and seize the opportunity that lie ahead, we must take decisive decisions.

We must call upon the national government to strike a balance that allows flexibility and expanding job opportunities by creating an environment conducive to business growth and investment.
We UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 67 can foster the emergence of new enterprises and industries thus generating employment on a larger scale.

In our pursuit of inclusive growth, we must also prioritise the strengthening of laws that protect workers’ rights to a safe work environment and prevent occupational hazards.
Workers deserve to be assured of their physical wellbeing while engaging in their daily tasks by establishing stringent safety regulations and enforcing their implementation.

We can ensure that every worker is protected and afforded a secure work environment.
Furthermore, it is imperative that we develop legislation to support provision for compensation and preparation for occupational diseases, particularly for ex- mine workers and individuals who have suffered irreparable due to the negligence of their employers.

These individuals have made invaluable contributions to our economy and our society, and it is our duty to support them during times of need by implementing comprehensive legislation and support system.
We can ensure that those affected receive the care, compensation and assistance they deserve.
Lastly, hon Chairperson, I urge government to engage with the National Economic Development and Labour Council to address UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 68 key policy issues that impact wages, worker’s protection in essential services and the promotion of living wage by fostering dialogue and collaboration between the government, employers and trade unions who can develop policies that not only address the immediate needs of workers but also contribute to sustainable economic growth.
It is through these consented efforts that we can uplift our workforce, promote social justice and build a more prosperous nation for all.

In conclusion, hon Chairperson and hon members, let us work together to create an environment that fosters growth, unlocks the potential of every South African to contribute meaningfully to our common future.

Thank you very much, Chairperson.

[Applause.]


Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon House Chairperson, hon members, hon Minister, Two Oceans and fellow South Africans, good day.

This has been said a few times today in the House, Minister, but I am going to say it again because you should hang your head in shame every time it is being said.

The official unemployment rate was 32,9% in the first quarter of 2023, you said so yourself.
The number of unemployed UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 69 persons increased by 179 000 to 7,9 million people during the same quarter.

These statistics place the unemployment rate in South Africa as one of the highest in the world.

Unemployment in South Africa is influenced by various factors.
First and foremost, there is no doubt that apartheid-era policies — and I recognise this, created significant disparities in education, skills, and access to opportunities.

This has led to a mismatch between the skills possessed by job seekers and the skills demanded by the labour market.
However, this is nothing new, Minister, the ANC-led government knew this in 1994, but since then have paid lip service to the education system in South Africa and thus faces challenges such as inadequate resources, poor quality of education in certain areas, and a high dropout rate.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Mkiva!

Hon Mkiva ... sorry, hon member.

Hon Mkiva, please, this is final warning.

Mr F J BADENHORST: See my clock is still running here, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, you can continue, I will give it back, don’t worry.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 70 Mr F J BADENHORST: Thank you, House Chair.

These factors contribute to a lack of skills and qualifications among job seekers, making it difficult for them to find employment.

This is exacerbated by the fact that the South African economy has experienced sluggish growth in recent years.
Slow economic growth leads to limited job creation opportunities, worsening unemployment rates.

Factors such as political uncertainty, policy inconsistency, and concerns about crime and corruption have hindered foreign direct investment in South Africa.

The so-called champions of the workers have not helped either.
Labour market regulations and practices such as strict labour laws, high minimum wages, and complicated hiring and firing processes have deterred employers from hiring new workers, particularly among small and medium-sized enterprises.

Addressing these causes of unemployment requires comprehensive policies and interventions that focus on improving education and skills development, fostering economic growth, promoting investment, addressing labour market inefficiencies, and tackling social challenges.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 71 It is important to note that the ANC has been the ruling party since the end of apartheid in 1994, and therefore, its policies have had a significant influence on the country’s socio-economic landscape, including the labour market.

The ANC policies.

There have been concerns about policy uncertainty and inconsistency, which have a negative impact on business confidence and foreign investment.
Uncertainty surrounding issues such as land reform, mining regulations, and the overall business environment has deterred investment and hindered job creation.

The mismanagement and inefficiencies of state-owned enterprises, such as Eskom and South African Airways, have placed a burden on the economy.

These entities have required significant bailouts, diverting resources that could have been used for other developmental purposes and job creation.
Corruption has been a persistent challenge in South Africa and has undermined economic growth and investment.

Corruption has diverted resources, undermined public trust, and deterred investors and ultimately impacting job creation.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 72 The DA-led Western Cape on the other hand has initiated policy interventions to address the multifaceted nature of this issue, focusing on education and skills development, economic growth, investment promotion, and tackling corruption and governance challenges.

These policies have borne fruit.


The latest unemployment statistics in the Western Cape has demonstrated, yet again, that effective governance can significantly impact employment rates.

The unemployment rate is this province is 21,6% compared to the national average, mentioned by yourself earlier, Minister, of 32,9%.
To quote my colleague in the National Assembly, Dr Michael Cardo when speaking about this province: “This province is a lighthouse amidst a storm of national governmental failures.” How does the Minister react to all this?

Instead of being willing to learn from the DA he ranted and raved in this very House last week that the Western Cape had geographical advantages, mentions were made of oceans and mountains, and the privileges bequeathed by a dismantled apartheid regime.

It is ludicrous.
It is ludicrous.

These intellectually lazy outbursts are symptomatic of a desperate government incapable of facing up to their own UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 73 bureaucratic ineptitude.

A party blinded by ideology to a thriving example of excellence in their own country, being the Western Cape.

An organisation resorting to racial divisions to evade confronting their own manifest failures.
Hon House Chair, as I conclude, this government and this Minister have no desire to learn, to develop and to govern well.

This budget reflects that.

You can continue down this road, year after year, but next year you will be punished for taking South Africans for granted.

I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Me A J Nyambi): Thank you.

Let me also acknowledge the Deputy Minister of Public Service and Administration, hon Pilane- Majake.
You are welcome in the National Council of Provinces.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR (Ms B E Moloi): House Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to acknowledge the Members of the NCOP led by the Deputy Chairperson amongst us, Mme Sylvia Lucas, our Minister of Employment and Labour, Ntate Thulas Nxesi, all Ministers and Deputy Ministers who are present or on the virtual platform, allow me Chair to acknowledge the Chairperson of the Select Committee, Ntate UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 74 Rayi, members of the select committee, all the hon members, ladies and gentlemen.
Hon members, I’m sure you would notice from the tone of the Minister that our focus and energies have now shifted towards talking less as the department as we are more about demonstrating all the achievements by the department.

So, allow me hon Chairperson to limit my input to few highlights which will be my immediate touch points.

Hon members, our department it’s a typical governance model and a direct response to a provincial district and local demands, and the challenges faced by the communities daily.
We exist in all nine provinces, led by the most capable men and women, the Chief-Directors, Provincial Operations, POs, and our Chief-Directors of Provincial Operations, CDPOs.

I trust that all the members of the select committee, hon House Chair, have been to our provincial offices.

So, they will attest to this, otherwise, I challenge the hon members to just name one CDPO in any province that is failing is their duty.
Hon members, my humble appeal to all of you in this House is to engage our offices in your provinces during your oversight UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 75 visit and to also report such matters that may be deemed of disservice to our people.

It serves no purpose to raise these issues only in meetings and in the House when there are cameras.

The cameras and meetings don’t serve our people, I must say.
I must also say, House Chair, that our labour centres which at the doorstep of the communities, continue to remain an infrastructure and enabler for District Development Model, DDM, perfection.

So, due to our mandate, the existing infrastructure and the demand nature of our services, the department has been involved in the Presidential Imbizos.
The Minister and I has also been stretching the resources of the department across the length and breadth of the country in many other collaborations and outreach programmes with national departments, districts, and the local municipalities.
Hon House Chair and hon members, the service delivery cites of the Department of Employment and Labour includes but not limited to, of course, the nine provincial offices, 126 labour centres, 30 satellite offices, 41 Thusong Service Centres and 447 visiting points across the country.
Now, I must also give you a provincial breakdown as follows: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 76 In the Eastern Cape, the department delivers services at 16 labour centres, five satellite offices and six visiting points.

In the Free State, there are 11 labour centres, three satellite offices and four Thusong Service Centres and 69 visiting points.

In Gauteng we have 26 labour centres, one satellite office and three visiting points.
In KwaZulu-Natal, we’ve got 16 labour centres, two satellite offices and 11 Thusong Service Centres and 37 visiting points.

In Limpopo, we’ve got 13 labour centres, eight satellite offices, seven Thusong Service Centres and 19 visiting points.

In Mpumalanga, we’ve got 14 labour centres, three satellite offices, 10 Thusong Service Centres and 26 visiting points.

In the Northern Cape, we’ve got seven labour centres, two Thusong Service Centres and 89 visiting points.
In the North West, where I come from, we’ve got 10 labour centres, six Thusong Service Centres and 24 visiting points.

In this province of the Western Cape as I finish with the provinces, the department delivers services at 12 labour centres, eight satellite offices and 104 visiting points.
Ladies and gentlemen and hon members, the reconfiguration of the department is meant to address the employment mandate of the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 77 department and to respond in the most effective way in creating a conducive environment for employment creation.
So, the department is implementing a project to reconfigure and unbundle the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, and the Compensation Fund from the department to allow these entities to operate as schedule 3 entities.

So, the project commenced in the first quarter of 2023-24, and it is estimated to be completed within a period of 24 months.

Despite the challenges at the Compensation Fund, hon members, during the 2022-23 financial year, the Compensation Fund paid benefits to the total amount of R4 billion.
These funds were spent on the monthly benefits, medical invoices and funding of the injured workers, rehabilitation programmes, reskilling, integration, as well as funding bursaries to youth, especially those who are the dependants to the injured workers.

Hon Chairperson, in the 2023-24 budget we have 36 kiosks with service delivery capabilities that will be deployed to strategic areas across the country, 11 busses across nine provinces have been procured.
I must also say that currently, free Wi-Fi has already been rolled out to all our 126 labour centres across the country.

Hon members, I must say UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 78 that the department is in the process of implementing several strategies to reduce the length of queues at the labour centres, and I’m sure, the issue of queues is a complaint from all the hon members.
We are also in the process of reappointment of queue marshals to direct the clients efficiently to the correct service areas, and this process must be fast tracked after the contract of the queue marshals have lapsed.

Now, we are also in the process of appointing more than R2 500 client service officers to deal with UIF applications and payments more effectively.
The upgrade of the ICT systems to unable clients to register as workseekers and be referred for employment on other generating opportunities online.
For the implementation, we are currently busy with the implementation of the UIF, Unstructured Supplementary Service Data, USSD, and mobile application that allows all UIF clients to apply online and submit payment continuation forms, any other required documents and making enquiries online thus, finalising their claims without having to visit the labour centre at any time.

This is currently being rolled-out, and this service is available at no cost, I must emphasise.
Also, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 79 currently, all Absa clients can now generate their UIF completed bank forms at all Absa Automated Teller Machine ATMs, which is one of the achievements of the department.

Hon House Chairperson, for far too long, we have been criticised for the number of inspections in the provinces.

The department is on the verge of achieving a historic 300 000 mark in terms of the number of inspections conducted in one financial year.
This is a commendable and unprecedented milestone, hon House Chair, and I’m sure, you would have said that it needs a round of applause.

Hon members, our Employment Services of SA, ESSA, upgrades, in the second quarter would add some additional capacity on our programme, to render more services to the workseekers and to expand on the number of the employers with the opportunities that would be loaded on the system.
The department will launch mobile units equipped with devices that will be used for vision of life skills device, interviewing skills and various other programmes that can help workseekers as they transition to the labour market.

We will continue to pursue government and departments to utilise our ESSA services for all government recruitment initiatives.
Hon UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 80 House Chairperson, as I conclude, it is for the same reason that there are long queues at the banks, the retail stores, the post offices, and others that there are queues at our labour centres.

When people leave those queues from our labour centres, they go straight to the bank, obviously, to withdraw money to feed their families from the claims and benefits that we pay them as the department.
We stand in queues here in Parliament, hon members, to get to this Chamber, we will be in queues when we leave here.

It is for the same reasons that those who benefit from our services, stand in the queues.

The day that some of our hon members realise the value of what the people stand in labour centres’ queue for, it will be when they are in those queues themselves for our services.
Only then, will they start to appreciate the work that we do as the Department of Employment and Labour and the work that is done by those in the labour centres.

Also, I must say that, unfortunately, hon House Chair, it is the nature of our service that there will always be queues at our labour centres.
We serve the ex-mineworkers in the labour sending UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 81 areas across Southern African Development Community, SADC, and the surviving children and widows of ex-mineworkers.

We serve the domestic workers and their sons and daughters, who most often than not, raise some of your children here.
We serve the most unserved, the most vulnerable, the underprivileged, the unfairly dismissed by some amongst the hon members here in this august House.

We serve those who are denied access to their benefits by some of you, hon members, who refuse to sign their UI-19 forms just to frustrate them.

We pay claims to the intended beneficiaries, we preserve jobs, and we protect the sons and daughters of the workers.
We do all these, while some hon members in this august House are pushing them against sectoral targets.

We serve our people, and that is our daily business.

One day, we shall let it sink.

Hon House Chairperson, allow me now, to thank our Minister, Ntate Thulas Nxesi, the Director-General of our department, Ntate Thobile Lamati, and the entire staff of the Department of Employment and Labour, for demonstrating the commitment to serve the less fortunate than ourselves.
I support the tabling and adoption of the Budget Vote 13 of the Department of Employment and Labour.

Also, I thank you, hon Chair, and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 82 please, I pledge my remaining minutes to my Minister when he concludes or sweeping.

Afrikaans: Mnr S F DU TOIT: Agb Voorsitter, hier is tans ’n donker wolk wat oor Suid-Afrika hang.
Een van die baie faktore wat tot dié mistroostigheid bydra is die werkloosheidsyfer wat jaar na jaar net groter en groter word.

Die regering wend ongelukkig nie daadwerklike pogings aan om daarvan ontslae te raak nie.

Inteendeel, hulle stel eerder strenger raswette in om daartoe by te dra en vir hulself ’n staanplek by die trog te probeer verseker.

Minister, wees verseker dat die VF Plus met alle belanghebbendes hierdie raswette in die howe sal beveg.
Ons sal nie stil bly nie; ons sal nie stil sit nie; ons is besig!

Wat ons aanvaar is strenger regulasies vir arbeidsindiensneming, meer besoeke deur amptenare aan werksplekke, dreigemente van inhegtenisnames soos die Minister gedoen het, vervolging en meer belofdes van finansieële UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 83 ondersteuning aan hul ge-etiketeerde en ANC-gedemorilariseerde ondersteuners.
Wat is die rede vir die benarde posisie waarin Suid-Afrika homself bevind?

Die Suid-Afrikaanse ekonomie het voor die Covid-ramptoestand reeds op die rand van ’n afgrond gestaan.

Die regering het besighede en inwonders se kele spreekwoordelik afgesny deur ANC regulasies in werking te stel.

Besighede het selektief hulp ontvang en die regering het daarmee die ekonomie die finale nekslag toegedien.

Meer as drie miljoen werksgeleenthede het as gevolg daarvan in die slag gebly.
Daarna, met die Julie 2021 onrus — wat ook te danke is aan ANC politiekery — het ’n verdere twee miljoen mense hul werke verloor.

Die Minister van Elektrisiteit het voor-verlede week op hierdie podium gestaan en vir ons gesê dat daar in die jaar 2022 sowat 600 werksgeleenthede ten gronde gegaan en verlore gegaan het as gevolg van die impak van beurtkrag.
Hy het UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 84 verder gegaan om te sê dat daar in hierdie jaar, 2023, volgens hulle verwag word dat ’n verdere 850 000 mense hulle werk gaan verloor as gevolg van die impak van beurtkrag.

Teen die einde van 2023, as ons al hierdie bedrae bymekaar tel, sal daar as gevolg van die ANC sedert 2020 6,45 miljoen mense hulle werk verloor het in Suid-Afrika.

English: Jobs lost, families ruined, livelihoods destroyed – by the ANC.
You must not be arrogant to boast on this podium that you are a caring government, a job-creating Ministry – you are not only part of the problem, Minister, you are the problem by imposing legislation like this.

Post 1994 racist laws got us where we are now.

Remove politics and government interference from this labour sector and create an environment that is conducive for economic growth and allow the people of South Africa to work, be employed and prosper.

Setswana: Re batla go dira, Modulasetulo.


IsiZulu: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 85 Thina sifuna ukusebenza.

English: The people want to work.

It’s up to South Africa.

It’s up to us to take our dignity back.

Afrikaans: Heelwat jeug is tans op hul knieë.

Maar moet dit nie as ’n swakheid sien nie.

Dís waarvandaan ons ons krag kry.

Ons is tot alles in staat deur Hom wat vir ons die krag gee.

English: Stand up and register to vote in these coming elections.
Stand strong and vote FF Plus in 2024.

Stand proud and get the ANC out of government.

Thank you, Chair.

Mr N M HADEBE: House Chairperson, hon Minister, statistics shows that South Africa is projected to see the highest jobless rate globally.

As the most industrialised nation on the African continent, our unemployment rate is estimated to hit 35,6% this year.

Meaning that over one in three persons in the country will be unemployed.

This is embarrassingly the highest in the world.


This negative and stagnant economic UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 86 growth coupled with excessive corruption and unmonitored control over power utilities, is what has set the state for one of the worst economic periods since democracy.
The hopelessness that is a result of joblessness in the country, is deeply entrenched in the fabric of our society because people’s constitutional rights are paid merely in lip service, and unfortunately, the complete indulgence of basic human rights is directly dependent on resources and money which our people lack.

Today we find ourselves in a predicament where we require a strong and willing government to shield the most vulnerable of our people from starvation.
And yet, it is the same government that has brought us into the trenches of gross financial mismanagement, misconduct, misappropriation of funds and outright corruption.

Due to this and many more issues, small business can barely keep afloat with current cost of doing business which increase daily because of load shedding.

Our state is worsened by the lack of large-scale investor confidence in our big industry which could bring about job creation.
It is futile for Ministers to come here to parade and state a few examples of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 87 new businesses that are opening in South Africa as this is simply not enough to address our high unemployment rate.

We can no longer run away from the effects of poorly performing government departments, as financially, our country is depleted beyond immediate repair.
One would think that our government departments should take this matter seriously and keep a tight rein on their entities’ performance.

Entities such as UIF and Compensation Fund did not submit their Annual Performance Plans to Parliament in order for us to conduct our accountability and oversight checks.

What this tells us is that these entities do not respect the constitutional mandate of Parliament and have a negative attitude about checks and balances do not apply to them.
They both have not accounted for the previous financial year in how funds have been spent.

Therefore, being unable to table this year's APP, the matter adds insult to injury as these entities are not well managed, with a large number of vacancies pointing to the redundancy in their capacity to carry out their mandates.

Whilst we raise serious concerns about some of the entities within this department, there is a large population that is dependent on assistance obtained through this department.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 88 After much consideration, the IFP hon Chairperson, supports the Budget Vote.

I thank you.

Mr J J LONDT: Good afternoon, hon Chair, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, members.
I sometimes wonder when this department will be renamed to the department of unemployment, because the trajectory we are on, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, said, we are adding more and more people to the lines of the unemployed instead of getting more people into the labour market.

The problem also is that colleagues here from the ANC keeps defending and giving all kinds of excuses as to why this is the case.
But nowhere at all, do you look in the mirror and say, maybe, just maybe, I and my party, we are at fault for the policies we implement.

Hon Dangor is coming up after me, and he’s got the same boring refrain.

So firstly, let's do a correction.

Hon Dango, it's not called load shedding, it’s rolling blackouts due to your party's inability and incapacity to curb your own greed and steal from the coffers instead of making sure that we have extra generating capacity.
Now, hon Dango will come up here and he will say, you know what, now we are catering for 100% of the population when Eskom was built for 18%.

You know hon UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 89 Dangor, that's true to a point.

But you have to go back, and you have to look what was the generating capacity when you took over?

You have messed up Eskom year after year, and now you're generating less electricity for more people.

And that’s the crux of the matter.


So, you must go through the entire argument.

Your inability to deliver is what's costing South Africa.

So, you can spend this whichever you where you want.

But this government is at fault for the rising unemployment crisis.

Last week, hon Minister, you lost your temper a bit on the question of why the Western Cape is doing so much better in fighting the scourge of unemployment.

And one of the reasons you said is that tourism.


Now, ... Afrikaans: Toerisme, agb Minister, is nie net as gevolg van ’n berg en ’n see nie.

Indien u dit nie geweet het nie, Kwa-Zulu Natal het ook ’n see.

Dit word die Indiese Oseaan genoem.

Hy’t ook ’n berg, naamlik die Drakensberg.

Die Ooskaap het ook ’n see.

Dis ook die Indiese Oseaan.

Daar is ook berge – die Amathola Berge … sulke pragtige lowergroen berge wat rol oor mekaar.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 90 English: But the big difference between those provinces I just mentioned, and the Western Cape is that the Western Cape creates an enabling environment for businesses to thrive, creates an enabling environment for tourism to thrive.

If you travel to the Eastern Cape now, that beautiful, beautiful wild coast, you cannot access the communities that desperately need tourists to come in there.
Because once the roads are washed away, the bridges are washed away.

You just do not care about fixing it again.

If we want to ensure that the rest of the country followed the lead of the Western Cape, maybe we should follow the example, create policy certainty.

Ensuring that the arteries that connect businesses to the markets are fixed.

Ensure that when a small business wants to be established, there is less red tape, not more.
Ensure that the small towns work without potholes, with records being removed, governments that look after the money.

So, in conclusion, If we want to make sure that this country works, let’s do the basics right, something that you have unfortunately failed, but it can be turned around.

So please follow the good examples that there are in this country.

I thank you.
I thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 91 Mr M DANGOR: House Chairperson, the last speaker was a mind- reader.

He knew what I was going to say.

He also wanted to become a prophet, I think, but maybe a prophet of doom.

The Department of Employment and Labour derived its mandate from the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa and gives there to a number of Acts which regulate labour matters in South Africa.
Such legislation includes the Labour Relations Act of 1995, the Basic Conditions of Employment Act 1997, the Employment Equity Act of 1998, and the Occupational Health and Safety Act 1993.

The Department of Employment and Labour’s legislation framework is informed by the South African Constitution Chapter 2 and the Bill of Rights.
Section 9 to ensure equal access to opportunities, section 10 promotion of labour standards and fundamental rights at work, section 18 freedom of association, section 23 to ensure sound labour relations, section 24 to ensure an environment that is not harmful to the health and the wellbeing of those in the work place, section 27 to provide adequate social security networks to protect vulnerable workers, section 26 to ensure that children are protected from exploited, forced labour practices and not permitted to perform work or services that are inappropriate UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 92 for a person of a child age or their well-being, their education, their physical or their mental health or spiritual, moral or social development is please addressed.
Section 34 access to the courts and access to fair and speedy labour justice.

Labour market regulation plays an important role in protecting workers, but a number of developments are challenging this role.

Firstly, emerging of new forms of work poses a challenge to regulations largely designed full-time, permanent employees working for a single employer.
Secondly, there’s an increase in evidence and in some cases growth in unbalance power relationships between workers and their employers, which calls for a reassessment of our regulation can address both the consequences and the sources of such imbalances.
A report on the labour market regulation protecting workers in a changing world of work and ensuring that firms, part of the rules are not put at a disadvantage, more specifically by looking at the role of regulation and define employment status extending protection beyond standard employees and rebalancing power asymmetries between employer, clients and workers.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 93 The main findings of the report are clearly defining the employment status of workers, for example, the distinction between self-employed and employees in the labour market.

Employment status acts such as gateway to various worker rights and protections including employment and social protection, but also access to training and collective bargaining.
Policy and law enforcement should minimise opportunities and incentives for the misclassification of workers.

Certain employers may deliberately misclassify workers in attempt to avoid employment regulation, tax obligations and workers representation as well as to shift risks to workers and to gain a competitive advantage and amongst many others do so by mistake.
Similarly, workers may choose amongst different employment forms in order to benefit from a better tax regime or simply to avoid taxes, but at the risk of losing labour and social protection.

Such miscalculations are therefore harms individuals and leaves firms that properly classify the workers at a competitive disadvantage and damages public finances.

For workers who remain in the grey zone there’s a genuine ambiguity about the employment status.
Government should seek to extend rights and protections to these workers.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 94 Some may of the characteristics of employees like them and they may find themselves in unbalance power relationship since employers often have a higher degree of control over the employment relationship than they do.

At the same time, they may be deprived of most of the standard rights and protections afforded by the employees.
The National Development Plan, NDP ...

[Inaudible.]

... to raise the living standards to the minimum required level will involve various mechanisms such as increasing employment, incomes productivity as well as through social protection and quality services.

The measure of the success of a government’s development policies will be when the opportunities for the poorest South Africans are transformed for the better.
Relatively high and consistent economic growth following the end of apartheid in 1994, up to about 2011, supported poverty reduction in South Africa.

Although economic growth prospects have been slowing in recent years, the economy is currently not generating sufficient jobs and the unemployment rate is as high as it is.
In the third quarter of 2017, youth and unskilled labourers bear the brunt of the problem as employers seek skilled workers and therein, we need to develop the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 95 apprenticeship system instead of getting everybody to run to universities to become either priests or politicians or social workers.
We need more people who can build more people, who will allow these more people who can actually fix a motor car, more people that can do that kind of thing.

I will go to where from what I was going say.

I am forced and compelled to ...

[Inaudible.]

... by the hon Londt, the DA speakers.

You know, no person is an island.

No country is an island.

For whom does the bell toll, the bell tolls for thee.

Now, I was outside the country trying to gain investments for South Africa.
Therefore, every time there was a negative comment from somebody because I had a job to go and gain those investments because of the negative comments that came from people within South Africa.

Now, in 1994, what do we seek to do.

We sought to bring about a state of national unity that would bring everybody in and leave nobody out.

People at left they’re gone away and now people begin to sound not only like the opposition, but they also begin to sound like somebody else.
They could be beginning to sound that they were working for other people in other countries.

That is the danger because that is the danger that when we look at.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 96 Now, people speak about racism.

Let me describe racism to you too.

I was sitting at lunch just now and there was a clip on a video that spoke about hon Deputy Chairperson.

It was about our names of you and I and hon Bartlett - naming us.
However, I did not come to the ANC to represent a minority group.

I don’t represent the minority group.

I represent South Africa.

I represent South Africans and I represent the transformation of the entire society of South Africa.

However, if you want to know about racism, I was at school, and yes, I was at school.
It may surprise you that I was at school, and I was sitting in the class of an Afrikaans teacher who was also the poet, and he wrote a poem called Skoppensboer: Ek hou van ’n man wat sy man kan staan.

Ek hou van ’n man wat sy slag kan slaan.

And the important part was ... En die Basterkind in sy siel verag ... who cursed the child of a mixed parentage within his ...

[Inaudible.]

... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 97 That made us stop speaking Afrikaans.
We spoke Afrikaans at home until then.

The only time I started speaking Afrikaans again was when I listened to the University of the Western Cape docent Dr Allan Boesak speaking about swartbewustheid [black consciousness] in Afrikaans.

Now, have you ever faced any race classification board as a child?

Do that.

You will understand racism.

You will understand what makes us think what we’re thinking.

We have suffered apartheid.

Now, the transformation of society is not going to happen overnight.
Before 1994, when we looked at regstellende aksie [affirmative action] we looked at the need to transform this society from where it was to where it must go to.

We looked at the Malaysian model that they had to look at when they rise to please in Malaysia and in Singapore with the Chinese.

Therefore, we said that we don’t want that to happen in South Africa.

We want everybody to be included.

However, in order to include everybody, you’ve got to transform society.
In order to transform society, you need to bring up those who did not have in the past.

Now, when you UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 98 say, hon Londt, that people talk about electricity, for those who never had electricity, they don’t miss much by having a blackout.

They don’t miss much by not having that kind of electricity.

That electricity was meant for the few.

It was never meant for South Africa.


Now, my appeal is that, let us all become South Africans once again.

Let us all become patriotic was South Africans want again.

Let us not talk down ...

[Interjections.]

... processes that we need to look at.

We, to become proud South Africans collectively, all of us, whether you’re from the DA, the EFF, or from the ANC or whatever other party you would want to be but understand that we need to transform our society.

We need to transform our country.


We need to take our rightful place in the world which we have, and we need to have the position where we can say to people and investors, particularly that none of us are negative about South Africa.

All of us are positive about South Africa.

Therefore, with that I want to invite you all to come back to become patriotic South Africans.

I thank you very much.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 99 The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Hon House Chairperson, all I can say to the EFF fighter is that it is good to dream.

There is nothing more than that.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: It is over.

The MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR: Hon Badenhorst, we have diagnosed the source of unemployment and we have said it is mainly structural.
You are correct, hence this government has invested in free education for all school going children who were deprived by apartheid to have free education.

A certain group enjoyed it more than others and you have forgotten that now.

The mass skills to retrain, to upgrade and upskill our people is meant exactly to address that.

I can say that is why we are also investing billions of rand to listen to the Department of Basic Education and all of them.
By the way, you have forgotten that COVID-19 destroyed economy nationally and internationally.

You have just forgotten that for two years, the economy came to a standstill.

When your premier Aland Winde was in the Western Cape Presidential Imbizo and was talking about excellent work opportunities in the Western Cape, he was silenced by the audience, the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 100 communities which were coming from Paarl, Ceres and so on.
These were the Africans and the so-called Coloured working class people.

They do not see what you were talking about.

Do they see the excellent number of work opportunities in Khayelitsha and the number of other townships?

Do they see that?

Again, you come and talk about what you do not understand.

Those who were in Ceres, in the Boland were being victimised and evicted by the farmers on a daily basis and are still treated like slaves.
Do you feel the workers and the ANC-led government must accept such conditions?

Some were born in those farms but are not allowed to be buried there.

After extracting their energies on your farms, building them using their sweat and blood, you dumped them.

Do you think that is human and can be defended?

Do you really think that can be defended?

You do not know what to defend.

Let me come back to the purpose which some of you do not understand of the Employment Equity Amendment Act.
This was an attempt to implement a constitutional requirements to bring about equality, an equal opportunity in the workplace.

It was left to the goodwill of the employers, on a voluntary basis, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 101 socially responsible and I have said that.

Employers did it.

We gave these employers 24 years to implement these requirements.

Unfortunately, what happened?


Remember this Act is derived from Chapter 2 of the Constitution and you go to section 9(2).

I am giving you a homework to go and do.

When you talk about the Employment Equity Amendment Act and not to make a lot of noise and say the Employment Equity Amendment Act is unconstitutional.

Now, what do these amendments say?

The Minister is empowered in consultation with the commission and all relevant stakeholders to set specific Employment Equity Amendment Act sectoral targets.
Guidelines have been drawn up and provisional targets agreed and have been printed for public comments.

The purpose is to support the equitable representation of suitable qualified people at all levels from the designated groups.

The amended Act promulgates section 53 of the Employment Equity Amendment Act which existed all along.
It is not new, for issuing the Employment Equity Amendment Act compliance certificates as a prerequisite for access to state contracts and doing business with any organ of the state.

The state has UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 102 the right to expect business to comply with the law.

What is controversial there?

Other people are saying the exclusion of the small business and employing less than 50 people.
We have heard the concerns from the black business, in particular has been for that.

A business employing less than 50 people might still have a massive turnover of more than a billion rand.

Why should they be exempted from the Employment Equity Amendment Act?

I want to put it very clearly here that no employer is exempted from the Employment Equity Amendment Act.

All must comply with the law of the land.

All can be subject to labour inspections and compliance orders.
The only change that the amendment seeks to reduce is the administrative burden of small business most of which do not have large administration and human resource departments, by reducing their reporting requirements.

There are a number of areas where they would have to comply.

I will be meeting with the Black Business Council Organisation this week to discuss the matter and explain.

I am ready to meet with any groups who have raised concerns.

We will sit and talk about those issues.


One hon member from the DA said this matter is complex.

I think that is part of the problem that they do not understand UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 103 it unless they sit and understand it, they will not have problems with it.

I also need to flag that the Employment Equity Amendment Act regulations provide a long list of justifiable circumstances of failure to comply with the Employment Equity Amendment Act.
IsiXhosa: Yimake ke mhlekazi phambi kokuba ndigqibe mandiyithethe le nto.

Ndiyakwazi ungathi liphelile ixesha.

English: We do not see any distortion here of the labour market.

We do see black male but as I have said, I will never ignore the calls of the overwhelming number of South Africans that there must be equity in the workplace.

We have talked about national versus regional demographics to be reflected in targets.
The law allows the employers to choose whether they are at nationally or provincially.

If the company chooses to report provincially, it uses the provincial economically active population figures that is published together with the national figures by the Statistics South Africa.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 104 Why is this an issue for the DA?
It is amazing now for those who benefitted from the racial apartheid are the first to accuse others of the racial quotas as reversed racism.

The DA has not been reading these Employment Equity Amendment Act reports.

The clinical evidence is very clear that the dead hand of the racial stratification still lies heavy across the South African workplaces.

If nothing is done, this would be entrenched for decades to come.

That is why the DA is defending and whipping the emotions of our people.

Thank you.
Thank you.

IsiXhosa: Ndikubonile ukuba uyandisebenza namhlanje.

English: Debate on Budget Vote 31 concluded.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, we have come to the end of the debate of the Budget Vote 31.

I would like to thank the Minister, hon Nxesi, Deputy Minister, hon Moloi of the Department of Employment and Labour for availing themselves to participate in this very important budget debate in the NCOP.

Thank you very much.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 105 APPROPRIATION BILL (Policy debate) Policy debate on Vote No 11: Public Service and Administration: The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINSTRATION: Hon Chairperson, Deputy Minister for the Public Service and Administration, Hon Dr Chana Pilane-Majake, Minister and Deputy Minister of Department of Employment and Labour, hon members of the NCOP, in particular the chairperson and members of the select committee, chairpersons of the Public Service Commission, PSC, and Government Employees Medical Scheme, GEMS, Public Sector Education and Training Authority, and the African Peer Review Mechanism, APRM, National Governing Council, directors-general and all executives of the Ministry of Public Service Administration, MPSA, extended portfolio, our esteemed guests, ladies and gentlemen and hon members, molweni, dumelang, good afternoon.
Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, in an Essay written by uTata Walter Sisulu, when he was at the island, actually not far UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 106 from where we are in 1976, titled “We shall overcome”, uTata Sisulu said, and I quote: The people are our strength.

In their service we shall face and conquer those who live on the backs of our people.
In the history of mankind, it is a law of life that problems arise when the conditions are there for their solution.

As we commemorated Xhamela’s 111th birthday last week, we reflected on the great collective journey of serving the people and ensuring that no one is left behind.

We therefore remain inspired by these wise words that bring to life the constitutional injunction to improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the potential of each person.
The budgets we are tabling today recognises that people are our strength and human dignity is the foundation for the work we do every day.

We are renewing our commitment to leave no one behind in the delivery of quality services by targeting the specific needs of vulnerable communities, from Kuruman, Malamulele, Mqanduli to Taung.

These are people who through no historical fault of their own, find themselves in vulnerable socio-economic situations.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 107 These budget votes seek to ensure that their voices are heard, and they become active participants as agents for change as we put people first, batho pele, abantu kuqala!
As we pursue this noble duty, we feel honoured to deliver the 2023-24 budgets for the following votes: Budget Vote 11 for the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, which is ably led administratively by the Director-General, Ms Yoliswa Makhasi, Budget Vote 7 for the National School of Government, NSG, which is professionally led by the principal Professor Busani Ngcaweni and Budget Vote 12 for the Public Service Commission, PSC, which is also ably led by Professor Somadoda Fikeni as the chairperson and Advocate Dinky Dube as the director-general.
The Deputy Minister, hon Chana Pilane-Majake will deliver the budget for the Centre for Public Service and Innovation CPSI.

Hon Chairperson, the Professionalisation Framework for the Public Sector is a game changer for government’s pursuit of Priority One of the 6th Administration, namely the Building of a Capable, Ethical and Developmental State.
We are happy to report that the DPSA is working with the Mpumalanga Provincial UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 108 Government to activate professionalization champions in their departments.

We invite the NCOP to partner with us on its oversight role to ensure full implementation of the framework by all sectors.

These include the 10 legislatures, local governments, national and provincial departments and all government-owned entities.
Meritocracy is at the heart of professionalization, and it is being institutionalised through extending pre-entry examinations and competency assessments to the whole of the Public Service.

We are also revising the Performance Management and Development System, for effective management of performance, productivity and development of staff.
Hon Chairperson, the DPSA budget allocation for the 2023-24 financial year is R553,460 million which is an increase of 1% from the final allocation for the 2022-23 financial year.

Compensation of employees constitutes R300 million or 54% of the total budget allocation, goods and services is R194 million, capital budget is R6 million and transfer payments is R52 million of which R45, 8 million will be transferred to the CPSI.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 109 The DPSA consists of five programmes which collectively are expected to lead the public service through norms and standards on human resource planning and development, performance management and development, employee health and wellness, transformation, Wage Bill management, negotiations and labour relations management, discipline, integrity and ethics management, rolling out e-government, e-services and cyber security, service access, revitalising the infusion of the Batho Pele principles in the public service, improving the functionality of government and accessibility as well as innovation, public participation and knowledge management.
Hon Chairperson, in the state of the nation address, the Hon President highlighted that and quote: A professional public service, staffed by skilled, committed and ethical people, is critical to an effective state and ending corruption, patronage and wastage.

The PSC is a critical partner in the implementation of the professionalisation framework as it plays an oversight and guiding role.
It ensures that the public service is ethical in recruitment, employment and that there is good governance, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 110 leadership and management.

The Public Service Commission Amendment Bill was approved by the Cabinet committee last week.

We aim to secure the enactment of the Bill into law within the current financial year.
The Bill will enhance implementation of the PSC’s mandate since it will be applicable to local government and public entities, in line with section 196(2) of the Constitution.

This will reposition the PSC as a bulwark of good governance in our country.

Hon members, the PSC budget allocation for the 2023/24 financial year is R292,1 million, which equates to 1,2% reduction when compared to the adjusted appropriation allocated during 2022-23 financial year.
In this current financial year, the PSC will assess various human resource management practices that are central to the professionalization of the public service.

It will strengthen its engagements with executive authorities, Legislatures, senior management, human resources, and labour relations practitioners to improve state capacity and capabilities.
Furthermore, the PSC conducts service delivery inspections and a citizen-focused community outreach programme across UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 111 provinces.

In the previous financial year, under the leadership of the provincial commissioners, the PSC conducted citizen’s forums in all nine provinces including at the villages of Setlagole in the North West, Klein Mier in the Northern Cape, Mapela in Limpopo and Nqwathi Administration Area eMthatha.
The PSC will review the employment and management practices found in the public service to promote accountability and efficient leadership in line with the President’s response plan to the recommendations of the Zondo Commission of Inquiry.

The PSC is elevating the fight against corruption by improving whistle-blower protection, discipline management and entrenching integrity and ethical conduct.
Strategic partnerships with the Gauteng and North-West provincial legislatures are being entrenched to ensure that matters of governance are improved.

With respect to the NSG for the 2023-24 financial year, the NSG has been allocated a budget of R229 million of which R115 million is transferred to the training trading account.
The NSG raises almost half of its operating costs, and is UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 112 targeting to raise revenue to the amount of R101,3 million from course fees.

Hon members, this budget will ensure that the NSG is able to sustain the following capacity building flagship programmes which were rolled out and developed in the previous year.
The Local Government Leadership Development Programme, which is an accredited programme by the Local Government Sector Education and Training Authority of which 19 City of Johannesburg councillors successfully completed.

The Flagship Programme Ethical Leadership and Executive Oversight Programme which is a critical intervention programme that was piloted at the Buffalo City in the Eastern Cape, Dr Ruth Mompati District Municipality in the North West, Mopani and Vhembe District Municipalities Limpopo.
The programme was also offered to the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Department of Economic Development, Tourism and Environmental Affairs.

The purpose of the programme is to help build a culture of ethical leadership in government, modelled by the ethical conduct of members of the executive.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 113 In collaboration with the Gauteng Department Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, the NSG has completed the course called the District Development Model, a joint decision making and implementation through the District Development Model for which a pilot is being organised.

And it will be replicated across the country.


And for this financial year, we are further advocating for the attendance of the new Local Government Executive Leadership Programme for Mayors and the Executive Induction Programme which is on the Oversight of Financial Management and Supply Chain Management.
Hon members, we have started working with various provincial governments and have made major inroads in strengthening partnerships and collaborated in terms of signing transversal Memorandum of Understandings, MoUs, with provinces through the Offices of the Premier.

Which forms part of the Professionalization Framework for the Public Service.

We are aware that each province has its own unique challenges and requires in depth contextualisation.
The following were introduced at provincial and local government in line with the professionalization agenda.

The Induction and onboarding programme which was held with the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 114 health sector in KwaZulu-Natal, KZN, Eastern Cape and Western Cape.
The youth development where the NSG implemented a programme designed to prepare 2 038 unemployed graduates to access employment opportunities in the public service, known as the “Breaking Barriers” to entry into the public service.

In the Frontline Service Delivery Monitoring Programme, we have trained 503 employees across all provinces in what we call citizen centred service delivery during the last financial year.
In the Art of Facilitation for Socio Economic Development Programme, where we have started to capacitate traditional leaders through the Art of Facilitating Socio- Economic Development Programme in KZN and Eastern Cape provinces and 150 traditional leaders were trained, with the purpose to build an active citizenry.

The comprehensive approach to all levers of governance and service delivery is clear for all to see.
To assist provincial departments to perform better in the delivery of services, the DPSA through the Office of Standards and Compliance has developed three frameworks which are as follows: The Framework on Minimum Public Administration Norms UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 115 and Standards and Enforcement, Framework on Compliance Monitoring and A Framework on Capacity and Functionality Audits on Skills Systems and Processes.
We are thankful to the provinces of Northern Cape, Mpumalanga, KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape and Limpopo for their active contribution in the development of these instruments to improve planning, accountability and service delivery.

The latest state of Public Service Delivery Research Report by the DPSA, pointed to inadequate capacity support and unco- ordinated citizen participation in the design, implementation and monitoring of service delivery across provinces and municipalities.
The department will assist provincial departments to address these challenges.

The department provides technical assistance to provinces to implement lifestyle audits and discipline management.

The participation of provinces in conducting lifestyle audits improved drastically from 47 provincial departments to 89 out of 103 provincial departments from all nine provinces in March 2023.

KwaZulu-Natal and the Western Cape had a 100% compliance rate as all their departments conducted lifestyle audits.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 116 What is reassuring, hon members, is the fact that more provinces detected possible conflicts of interest and unexplained wealth than last year and referred such for investigation.
The following departments referred cases for further investigation: Gauteng transport and logistics, North West health, KZN health, Western Cape agriculture, Western Cape health and wellness, Free State co-operative governance and traditional affairs, Gauteng Office of the Premier.
The department is the co-ordinator of the Fusion Centre, where the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, National Prosecution Authority, NPA, SA Police Service, SAPS, and the Hawks, work together to prioritise criminal investigations against public servants.
In partnership with all nine Offices of the Premiers, the department was able to assist in identifying employees who were involved in the illegal obtaining of the Social Relief of Distress Grants, which were meant to be a safety net for vulnerable members of the public.

Hon Chairperson, in this current year, we are prioritising the following: Conducting a skills audit, establishing a single UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 117 register for disciplinary cases.
We will also be working on the report and response from the President on the Zondo Commission of Inquiry.

This will include improving the politico-admin dichotomy and prioritising measures to protect whistle blowers, and completing lifestyle audits for members of the senior management service across the public service.
Hon Chair, we will be working with the Presidency, the Ministers of Communications and Digital Technologies and Finance to fast-track digitization, the rolling out of the future of work project, e-government and e-services to reduce red tape and to free departments from a high compliance burden.

Hon Chairperson, in closing, allow me to again quote tata Sisulu when he said: In the course of a liberation war there are many long and dark days.
But a people who want freedom, who are prepared to fight for it, are capable of super-human efforts.

We face a powerful enemy, but never can it match the strength of the people.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 118 I therefore present the Budget Votes of the three departments.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr K M MMOIEMANG: House Chair, greetings to the Minister and the Deputy Minister, a special word of greetings to my colleagues in the House and those that are on the platform, and the public at large.

Chair, allow me to rise on behalf of the ANC and pledge our support to the vote as articulated by the Minister because the work that the department has presented to us as a committee enabled us to be able to understand the context within which the public service is operating.
In doing so, Chair, allow me to quote one author, David Fourie, who said as follows: The public sector all over the world face challenges and thus far, public sector reforms have not been very, very successful.

The public sector as a key component of any economy needs to address its challenges adequately to prevent economic growth and development from being curtained.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 119 Chair, I think this is quite relevant because when the Sixth Administration was elected, one of its priorities and goals was to build an efficient, effective, capable and ethical developmental state free from corruption and malfeasance.

Only a state that is capable, efficient, ethical and developmental-oriented can be able to address the challenges that are captured by David Fourie.
This means that the public service as an integral part of the public sector must be staffed by men and women who are professional, skilled, gallant, selfless and honest.

The ANC in its 2019 manifesto identified that public service delivery has been a thorn on its side.
The 2019 manifesto, therefore, highlighted that the organization aimed to step up public service performance, inspections and unannounced visits as part of improving the performance of public servants in putting people first and strengthening and consolidating efforts to digitalise government, utilising big data in planning and execution, and expedite the implementation of e- governance so that citizens can access public services from any location as they become connected.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 120 Hon House Chair, priority, as the ANC committed itself, will be given to the effective use of new technologies for public infrastructure as we build smart public schools, smart health facilities and smart community policing to fight crime in its numerous facets.
Key interventions that are emerging that government needs to implement in the public sector in order to achieve a capable, ethical and developmental state are as follows: Firstly, there’s a need to ensure professional, meritocratic and ethical public administration.

Secondly, there’s a need to improve leadership, governance and accountability.

Thirdly, they need to have a functional, efficient and integrated government.
Fourthly, they need to ensure that we mainstream gender, empowerment of youth and people with disabilities.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 121 Lastly, they need to ensure that we develop social compacts and engagements with key stakeholders.

The difference in services, levels of accountability and unique service conditions are not obstacles that are impossible to overcome.
Instead, they point to a need for government action to address them and create equity throughout the civil service that is based on and reflects the Constitution’s prescripts, that is correctly captured in section 195, the ubuntu principles and the Public Service Charter.

By making the public sector and administration more professional, the values expressed in these pieces of legislation and policy can direct the development of essential equilibrium.
Implementing a professionalization framework – as articulated by the Minister - in the public service of South Africa involves several key steps and considerations.
This framework is quite critical with regard to key areas: conducting its assessment, developing professionalization standards, establishing career paths and development programs, enhancing UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 122 recruitment and selection processes, and, lastly, ensuring that there is much more strategic way in terms of strengthening performance management, promote ethics and accountability.
Chair, by so doing, implementing a professionalization framework is an ongoing process that requires sustained commitment and periodic reviews to ensure its effectiveness, efficiency and relevance to the evolving needs of the public service in South Africa.

Chair, another area that is quite critical that has to come to the fore in pledging our support to the budgets is strengthening compliance in the public service and improving state capability.
It’s quite critical that we strengthen compliance in the public service and improve state capability because they are quite crucial factors in ensuring an effective and productive governance and delivering quality public service.
There needs to be training and capacity building initiatives with a view to ensure that we strengthen our internal control systems, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 123 transparency and accountability, cannot be overemphasized, House Chair.
This is so because the ANC January 8 statement of 2023 clearly highlights that in terms of public service, new digital technologies such as artificial intelligence, big data and machine learning should be utilised as it can provide a platform for economic growth and development that can expand job creation and self-employment, improve production processes and enhance delivery of public services such as health care, education and community safety.
Providing regular training and capacity building programs for public servants is quite critical so that we are able to enhance the understanding of the compliance requirements, ethical standards and also best practices.

Implementing robust internal control mechanisms within government agencies is very crucial.

This includes establishing internal audit units to regularly assess compliance, financial management and operational processes.

Thank you, hon Modise.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 124 Promoting transparency and accountability is imperative for public trust and strengthening compliance.

This is so because this can be achieved by publishing relevant information such as budgets, procurement process and performance indicators on government’s website.
We do this because improving and enhancing state capability and strengthening compliance requires dedication, perseverance and continuous supervision.

It is so important because this will ensure that we have long-term successes, regular evaluations and feedback processes should be put in place to gauge progress, spot gaps and make the required corrections.
The third area that is also critical is how do you ensure that there is consistent application of consequence management and effective disciplinary measures?
This is quite critical because in our interaction with the department on this matter came out quite strongly because consistent application of consequence management and effective disciplinary mechanisms are essential for maintaining order, you need to be able to promote accountability, and in order to do that there’s the need to ensure that there’s compliance UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 125 with rules and regulations within the state in particular and community of South Africa in general.
We do this because these measures help deter misconduct, it address behavioural issues, and it maintains a healthy and productive environment.

We heard what the hon Minister indicated, in relation to referral of cases.

Government needs to develop clear and transparent processes for reporting incidents, investigating allegations and determining appropriate disciplinary actions.

This is important because it will help build trust and ensures that consequences are applied fairly and consistently.
Acting promptly and consistently when addressing incidents or disciplinary matters is important because the delayed responses or inconsistent application of consequences can undermine the effectiveness of these measures and create a perception of bias or favouritism.

Therefore, adopting a progressive approach to disciplinary actions, starting with less severe measures for minor offenses and escalating consequences for repeat or more serious violations is important.
This allows individuals to learn from UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 126 their mistakes while establishing a framework for addressing recurring patterns and issues.

Therefore, application of consequences and disciplinary actions need to be consistent across all individuals within the organization or community.
By implementing these measures consistently and effectively, organizations and communities can establish a culture of accountability, discourage misconduct, and foster an environment conducive to growth and success.
As the Minister has indicated, the state of the nation speech of this year spoke of government’s efforts of building a professional public service, and at the centre of that there’s need for meritocracy, there’s a need for skilled reservoir, there is a need commitment, for ethical way of doing things.
Hon Chair, we support the budget vote because the department is making inroads with this as it is amending legislation and strengthening the role of the Public Service Commission to ensure that qualified people are appointed to senior management positions and to move towards establishing a cohesive and unified public service.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 127 The other critical important area is the need to ensure that we support the livelihoods of public service workers.

We are aware of the devastating nature that covid has done to public service workers.

And these public service workers provided the backbone support to public service delivery.
These are men and women who have dedicated their time and capabilities to build our Republic, they are some of the people who are hit the most by our socioeconomic issues as the country and government has recognized that this dedication has to be recognized.

Supporting the livelihoods of public service workers is crucial for ensuring the effective functioning of government institutions and the provision of essential services to the public.
Therefore, public service workers such as teachers, healthcare professionals, firefighters, police officers and civil servants play a vital role in maintaining the wellbeing and safety of society.

The benefits provided by government are salaries with wage negotiations, pension, medical such as Government Employees Medical Scheme, GEMS, housing, service bonus, leave dispensation and payment for working overtime.
House Chair, it is important that we also, in conclusion, appreciate that that department is entrusted with creating the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 128 policies that must be implemented by the government in order to lower the public sector pay bill and bring it down to an affordable level.

In order to uphold the Batho Pele values, public service delivery must prioritize the needs of the people.
As a result, the department will concentrate on carrying out the updated Batho Pele program over the medium-term [Time expired.]

this will be done to make sure that quantifiable, universal Batho Pele criteria are implemented in a way that allows consumers of public services to independently check for compliance.

Thank you, House Chair.

We support the budget votes.

Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon Chairperson, hon members, hon Minister and fellow South Africans, good day.
Let’s see if you are all awake after that interlude we had just now.

Public service and administration forms an essential aspect of any society.

It is only through effective administration and public service that we can create a society that is equitable, just and conducive to economic growth.
Therefore, it is our collective UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 129 responsibility to work towards creating a society that supports and promotes public service and administration.

However, there are several challenges and problems with the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA budget allocation in South Africa.
One of the main challenges is inadequate funding, which limits the department’s ability to deliver essential services and improve the public service’s capacity and performance.

Another problem is the lack of efficient and effective use of resources within the DPSA.

There have been many instances of corruption, mismanagement, and irregularities in the allocation of resources, which have undermined the integrity of the department and led to poor service delivery.
There is an old saying Madam Chair that, the numbers don’t lie.

So, it might stand as a good step to look at the few of the numbers whilst we have the time.

Let’s look at how this department actually spends some of its budget.

Five hundred and twelve million rand per year for VIP security.

Can I ask you, in a fantastic well-run ANC government where all the Ministers are doing their work and everybody loves them and votes for them.
The biggest belief that they need R512 million UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 130 to protect them, against who because everybody loves them.

What are we spending on the ex-Presidents’ VIP security and their spouses in taxpayers’ money?

Three hundred and eighty-seven million rand per year for the salaries of over 600 support staff.

That must make quite a dent on the unemployment figures that the previous Minister ... [Inaudible] ... out.
Twenty million rand per year for luxury international travel.

Can you imagine?

That must be a lot of economy tickets overseas because they fly economy, I am sure they don’t fly business class for this class.

Fifteen million rand per year for generators, free water and electricity.

Don’t worry South Africa, we the ANC have brought you stage eight load shedding, actually not load shedding but rolling blackouts.

Out of 32 hours a day, you will be in darkness for 16 hours.
But don’t worry, we the Ministers and the Deputy Ministers will give ourselves a nice R15 million per year for generators, free water and electricity.

That is nearly R1 billion per year on luxury perks for ANC Ministers and Deputy Ministers.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 131 And now, we are not even mentioning the 97 mansions occupied in Cape Town and Pretoria, valued at nearly R1 billion.
Can you imagine South Africa what we can do with R2 billion worth of schools, clinics, hospitals.

Why don’t we start fixing 30 years of neglect in South Africa with a R2 billion that you at the moment are spending on Ministers and Deputy Ministers for fancy houses, fancy cars and generators.

It is therefore no wonder that the DPSA has faced challenges in implementing policies, regulations, and programmes aimed at improving and regulating the public service Madam Chair.
Furthermore, there is a lack of incentives and consequences for public servants who do not perform adequately or engage in corrupt and unethical behaviour.

This undermines the efficacy of efforts to improve performance and accountability within the public service and detracts from the department’s ability to deliver effective services to citizens.

This scenario sheds light on the culture of the public service, particularly in the area of ethics.
Ethics training is essential as it has proven in other countries to promote ethical behaviour and professionalism among the public servants.

Some of the main problems with ethics training in the public service in South Africa include the following: There are no clear guidelines or UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 132 frameworks to ensure that ethics training is relevant, effective, and tailored to the specific needs of various public service departments.
As a result, training initiatives are haphazard, generic, and not adequately focused on the development of ethical decision-making skills required in different public service contexts.

There is a shortage of training resources, which affects the quality and amount of training available.

Many public service departments do not offer regular and high quality training programmes, while others rely on online training or generic training programs that do not cater to the specific needs of public servants.
There is no clear accountability framework for public servants who violate ethical principles, which means that ethics training is not always taken seriously, and there are no consequences for bad behaviour.

This undermines the efficacy of ethics training and has led to a culture of corruption, maladministration, and unprofessional behaviour in the public service.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 133 So, what role does the Public Service Commission play in all of this?

The Public Service Commission, PSC is mandated to oversee and regulate the public service by monitoring adherence to the guiding principles of public administration, promoting ethics and professionalism within the public service, and investigating complaints about the conduct of public servants.
The PSC is however bedevilled with the following perennial problems: Limited scope and capacity.

The PSC does not have sufficient resources, expertise, or capacity to effectively fulfil its duties.

This leads to backlogs in investigations and limited follow up on recommendations made by the PSC.

The PSC is accountable to the President and does not have the necessary independence to conduct investigations and make recommendations that may be unpopular or politically sensitive.
This undermines the credibility of the PSC and the public’s trust in its ability to regulate the public service effectively.

The PSC’s recommendations and findings very seldom result in concrete action or reforms within the public service.

This undermines the PSC’s effectiveness in promoting accountability, transparency and ethical behaviour in the public service.
The PSC has limited powers to enforce UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 134 compliance, and many public servants do not take the PSC’s recommendations seriously and do not comply with its directives.

Then we come to the biggest joke of them all, the Public Administration Ethics, Integrity and Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit.

Imagine that acronym, PAEIDTAU.


Let me repeat that in case you guys are sleeping, the Public Administration Ethics, Integrity and Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit, amazing.

This elaborately named unit suffers from a lack of resources.

It doesn’t suffer from a lack of abbreviations anyway.

It has limited funding, personnel, and technical support to provide assistance to public service departments.
This limits the unit’s capacity to provide effective support and delays the resolution of ethics and integrity issues within the public service.

There is simply a culture of impunity among some public servants, who do not take ethics and integrity standards seriously due to a lack of consequences for noncompliance.
This culture of impunity undermines the efforts of the, wait for it, the Public Administration Ethics, Integrity and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 135 Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit to promote ethical behaviour and professionalism amongst public servants.
The ineffectiveness of this unit is borne out by the following facts: In a report tabled in Parliament late last month by the PSC, an overview of financial misconduct in the public service for the 2021-22 financial year, revealed that the 520 disciplinary cases relating to financial misconduct reported across the public service have resulted in a staggering R1,2 billion loss to the state.
Furthermore, according to the report, national departments accounted for R1 billion of this loss, whilst provincial departments accounted for R238 million of this loss.

What is even more unsettling, is that only a meagre R6 million out of this R1,2 billion loss was recovered by these departments.

Very shameful.

In the public service, it pays to misbehave.


There is currently a total of 607 drawn out precautionary suspensions in the public service costing the public purse an amount of approximately R265 million per annum in salaries.

The Zondo Commission was established in South Africa to investigate allegations of state capture and corruption.

It was supposed to resolve all the ills in the public service.
But to date, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 136 none of its recommendations have been implemented.

Let me repeat that, none.

This sad state of affairs, presided over by this sluggish and disinterested government is precisely because of a lack of political will, limited institutional capacity, resistance to change and a simple lack of accountability.
This government is seemingly happy with this status quo and happy to starve the institutions that seek to improve the public service.

Continue making sure that your ANC Ministers are comfortably cocooned in their luxury homes, all load shed free.

The voters in South Africa are also taking note.

They will see you at the ballot box in 2024.

Thank you very much.

Ms S S MBONYANA (Eastern Cape): Hon Chair, greetings to you.
Hon members of the National Council of Provinces, Minister of Public Service and Administration, director-general and all senior executives, fellow South Africans, good evening, we appreciate, hon Chair, the opportunity to say a few words in this debate as it relates to vote 11 for the Department of Public Service and Administration, vote 7 for the National School of Government and vote 12 for Public Service Commission.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 137 Hon Chairperson, the Department of Public Service and Administration has chosen a very inspirational thing for this budget taking care of public servants to care for South Africans.

Hon Chair, history tells us that successful organisations derive their success from having a motivated work force.
They invest a lot of their time and resources and cultivating a conducive environment for workers to enjoy what they do and to try even their careers.

This thing hon Chair, hon members, should be a signal to all public servants that under the current leadership of ‘imbokodo’ at the Department of Public service and Administration there is intention to care for them so that they can in return care for South Africans that they serve.
We upload the leadership of Minister Kiviet and her entire team for swiftly resolving these recent public service sector wage impasses before it escalated into a full blown strike.

Indeed, hon Chair, the 7,5% salary increase accepted by public sector workers is an indication that workers are always ready to compromise when a fair deal is put before them.
They also understand that fiscus of the country must balance other UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 138 course pressures that are critical for the development of our country.

So, we upload the unions for coming to the party for the settlement of the recent wage negotiations.
If we are, hon members, to have professional public Service we must be competitive and reasonable in remunerating public servants that could go a long way in motivating our public servants to be true guidance of public fiscus against such as fought corruption and fruitless expenditure.

Now that the wage negotiations have been concluded amicable, we expect to see much improvements in the services that are rendered to our people in government service centres.
Hon Chairperson, with 10 months remaining in the current Six Administration, we want to see the Department of Public Service and Administration heightening the implementation of programmes and pronouncement that were announced as priority during this term.

One of those pronouncements, hon Chair, relates to the abolishment of experience requirements for entry level in post level 1 to level 5.
This sober directive must be implemented, hon members, without favour by the end of this term across all government departments as it will bring UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 139 to the public administration a new cadre of young energetic public servants with new ideas on how government can serve the public better.
More importantly, believe this policy directive will also contribute towards job creation in the Public Service as the previous regime of requirements where vary to entry for graduates who just came out of institutions of higher learning.

Hon Chair, COVID-19 disrupted the public servants in a number of ways but it also exposed us to the reality that ICT is the critical tool of communication that can connect people in various occasions simultaneously.
We welcome the announcement by hon Kiviet that the Department of Public Service and Administration working with the Presidency, the Minister of Communications and Digital Technologies and Finance will fast- track digitisation in Public Service to enable government and e-services.

In our province, hon Chair, in the Eastern Cape, we are at an advantage of the implementation of broadband project connecting government departments and sites such as schools, police stations and hospitals.
This broadband project, hon members, has enabled us to digitised operations in government.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 140 We now have e-health, e-education and e-recruitment platforms that have led to improve efficiencies.

Private sector in the form of network providers such as Vodacom and MTN are also expanding their network coverage in our townships and rural communities.
Going forward, we also aim to see a much improvement in mechanism for cost-effective ICT procurement.

How can the Department of Public Service and Administration assist us to develop procurement model that allow us to get the best value for the market players such as micro soft?
In the Eastern Cape, hon members, we have brought issues of micro soft licences under one broad contractor but still the cost of businesses remains high also given the challenges rend dollar exchange rate, we need the Department of Public Service and Administration that can ensure that we are futuristic oriented in the ICT space.

Hon Chair, fought and corruption have tainted the image of the Public Service.
State capture and the maleficent that was unearth during the COVID-19 procurement are recent cases that left a bad mark on the Public Service in the eyes of South UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 141 African public.

We must restore the trust and credibility of the Public Service.

In the Eastern Cape, hon Chair, we have embarked on the life style for the executive councils and heads of the departments, HoDs, with the assistance of the State Security Agency.
We believe life style audits are a mechanism to improve public trust.

We need more support from the Department of Public Service and Administration in the implementation of lifestyle audit so that they can become a culture in the Public Service.

We appreciate, hon Chair, the fact that the Department of Public Service and Administration is leading from the front in transformation of formal leadership.
It is profound, hon Chair, that director-generals in the Presidency, the Department of Public Service and Administration, Public Service Commission, PSC, and the Acting Executive Director of Centre for Public Service Innovation, CPSI, are women encourage, hon Chair, the women leaders at the helm of institutions I have just mentioned to be bold enough to the large corporate so that other professional women can come up.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 142 Hon House Chair, let me quickly make commentary on the budget statement for the National School of Government.

The NSG, hon Chair, has breathed an air of optimism that professionalism will be restored in the Public Service.

We appreciate, hon Chair, the work that has been done led by the NSG to develop the professionalisation framework for the public sector.
We trust that the framework will not gather dust in the government filing cabinets but will be fully implemented in three spheres of government to bring about uniformity in our Public Service.

We are in and out, hon Chair, of the work that the NSG has done in its 10 years of existence.
In our province of the Eastern Cape, hon Chair, we are direct beneficiaries of the many programmes that are offered by NSG particularly for the SMS level employees who believe that the work of the NSG must be supported, hon Chair, financially by government if the institution is to continue to offer valuable and relevant training programmes to public servants.
Hon Chairperson and hon members, the principle behind the Public Service Commission Amendment Bill seems to be aimed at strengthening good governance in Public Service by giving PSC UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 143 deserve powers.

It is long overdue that the mandate of the PSC should be extended to local government and public entities.
Our concern, hon Chair, in the Eastern Cape administration is that, in the budget that was presented by the Minister of Public Service and Administration there was a reduction of 1,2% in the PSC budget.

We hope such reduction will not compromise the work of the PSC.

On that note, hon Chair, we support and welcome the Department of Public Service and Administration budget allocation for the 2023-24 financial year.

We plead for ... [Inaudible] ...


Yes, as I conclude, Chair, we plead for future prudent use of the budget for maximum impact.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson, the EFF rejects the budget allocation for Public Service and Administration, as well as the proposed budget for the National School of Government and the Public Service Commission.
We reject the budget of a department whose aim is to promote ethical public service and to prevent and combat corruption, yet is notorious for doing the exact opposite.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 144 Just last month, the Public Service Commission outlined the continued lack of accountability and consequence management within provincial government departments.
Billions of rand are lost due to employee misconduct, with only a small fraction being recovered and there have been no other plans put in place to recover lost funds or to hold those who are responsible accountable.

This department has at its head, a Minister who is currently embroiled in reports which implicate her in receiving post- graduate qualifications at the University of Fort Hare, without the prerequisite junior degrees.
Noxolo Kiviet, is now under investigation by the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, for fraud, which is a testament to the criminal nature of the collective cabinet of Mr Cyril Ramaphosa.

Under the guidance of the ANC, this department continues to reward those who are accused of corruption with high-ranking posts rather than sending them to jail for their crimes.
We, therefore, reject the budget of a department which is and has on several occasions been compromised, as civil servants conduct business with the state.
This department has failed to monitor various government departments as we still have many UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 145 vacancies in key positions in various sectors, instability in key positions and ineffective performance management in various sectors, and is notorious for its lack of foresight and incompetence.
There currently exists poor financial management within the provincial government which cripples the ability of the government to deliver services to our people.

This department lacks an overall model of public administration enforcement standards and ethics to address the skills deficiency and development mode to professionalise the public service.
The National School of Government was supposed to play a strategic role in ensuring that we recruit the best among us to deliver services to our people but at the moment, the role of the National School of Government is constrained by the limited resources it has been allocated throughout its various formations.
We reject the budget of a department which has failed our people after 20 years of democracy, as our people are still faced with racial and spatial inequality in the workplace, in our country, and in many public and private sectors, most key positions are still male-dominated with women underrepresented.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 146 The corruption of the ANC knows no bounds, and this is further reason for all the people of South Africa to join the EFF, to uproot the massive corruption of the ruling party, that has filtered into all government departments.

[Interjections.]

AN HON MEMBER: You are dreaming!


Ms B T MATHEVULA: As we celebrate a decade of advocating for the building of state capacity to abolish tenders, and 10 years of striving for improved working conditions and salaries for all public servants, we appeal to all members of the public to donate to the revolution by sending an SMS of “EFF DONATION” to 38172.
Chairperson, the EFF rejects the proposed budgets of the Department of Public Services and Administration, the National School of Government, and the Public Service Commission.

I thank you, Chair.

Ms H S BOSHOFF: Hon Chairperson, hon members, hon Minister and fellow South Africans, I think is good evening, before I start to reiterate and reply to Brenda, I will not be answering that SMS.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 147 Hon Minister, your government and trade unions in the Public Co-ordinating Bargaining Council eventually agreed on a two- year wage deal.

This deal was struck with a stark warning by Treasury that it will come with significant trade-offs in view of the cost of future jobs and the funding of public programmes as well as tackling overly-generous pay packages.

We await these “costs” of future jobs in anticipation.
The Finance Minister also stated that the Wage Bill is a significant cost driver, and one of the key risks to the fiscal outlook.

Currently, the Public Sector Wage Bill for the R1,3 million public servants accounts for almost a third of government’s total expenditure.

Minister, I am sure you will agree, is mind boggling to say the least.

How will the government go about clawing back these funds?
Unfortunately, Minister, these funds will in all likelihood have to be taken from departments such as Police, Health and Labour, leaving them much less money to fulfil their mandates.

The government spending has since 2008 financial crisis, grown much faster than the GDP growth, placing South Africa on a very delicate projectile financially, with the Wage Bill topping the R700 billion mark.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 148 With the National Treasury deviating from their intended budget, the negative affect on any fiscal consolidation will in all probability lead to further credit rating downgrades which this country can sorely afford and furthermore placing an even heavier burden on the already battered tax payer.
Hon Minister, it is common knowledge that there exists a negative relationship between government expenditure on housing and education to name but a few and the Public Wage Bill.
And yet, you have forged ahead with the 4,5% hike, the extra 3% given to the unions would have gone a long way in significantly assisting with skills development and providing the most vulnerable with housing and assisting and addressing the latest progress in international reading literature studies on the reading abilities of our learners at fourth grade level.
According to Michael Sachs, a professor at Wits, he indicated that there is a need for increased productivity and efficiency from public sector officials.

You keep appeasing them with increased wages but the input, that’s the wages, far outweighs the output, which is delivery and on services.

These wages should be linked to performance and transparent hiring UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 149 processes.
It would not be prudent of me to say that the 7,5% wage increases, across the public sector for the next two financial years ...

Yes, I see you listening well, Minister, thank you for that.

... was done to ensure your allies assist in ensuring you survive at the polls in the 2024.

These elections are in my view the core driver as to why your government acceded to these unsustainable and ill-founded increases.
These increases according to the National Treasury have been estimated to add an additional R37,4 billion to the already over stretched budget for the 2023-24 financial period.

Minister, we all know that it is imperative that future increases must strive to balance these increases and the need for additional head counts.

Unfortunately, the latest wage agreement failed dismally in achieving this objective.

You must agree, this country is at breaking point, leaving the most vulnerable more destitute.
We see the winds of change, but unfortunately not necessarily prosperous winds.

These UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 150 winds are again only for those who align themselves to the governing party.

Therefore, Minister, you need to rapidly implement the measure growth reform policies and wane in government debts.

These increases only lead to less people being employed in this sector.
I truly and really hope that you and your government will take this country into its confidence by explaining how these wage increases will be sustained.

We do not want to see tax payers again having to foot this bill together with all the other financial expenditures such as the likes of state capture, cadre deployment and corruption.

Thank you very much, House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER: PUBLIC SERVICE & ADMINISTRATION: Hon House Chairperson, let me begin by acknowledging the presence of the Minister of Public Service and Administration, hon Noxolo Kiviet; chairperson and members of the Select Committee, Kenneth Mmoiemang; members of the NCOP; DGs present here today with the senior management from the Public Service; our honoured guests, some of them in the gallery; fellow South UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 151 Africans; listening to the speakers, I just wish to say that getting the ANC out of power sounds like it is a nightmare.
You wake up to radio, you wake up to TV, you wake up to the newspaper and then it is about getting the ANC out of power.

When are we going to begin to run this country together for the advancement of South Africa, for a better life for the people of South Africa, without being bothered about this nightmare?

I am sure, some of the members of the opposition scream in the middle of the night, get the ANC out of power!

Afrikaans: Wat gaan aan, pa?

Pa, pa. Hy skree, dis die ANC.

Hier kom die ANC.


English: The electorate overwhelmingly votes for the ANC and they end up unashamedly using clandestine means of coming into power.

We call it ruling through the back door.

If you believe in democracy, why do you undermine what the people of South Africa want?

The people of this country have not forgotten where they come from and this why they continue to vote ANC.
The remnants of apartheid, intellectual bankruptcy, amnesia is UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 152 the driving force to down talking the leader of society, the ANC.

They are always grandstanding and misleading Parliament with baseless arguments in debates.

Hon Badenhorst, you talk about insufficient allocation, irregular spending of the budget of the Department of Public Service and Administration.
I think you must go and read the outcomes of the audits of this department.

You actually also mislead government by a lot of information that is presented here.

You keep on coming to talk about generators, free electricity, free water.

I don’t live in a house with a generator that has been bought by government.

I don’t get my water and electricity paid for by government, whether it is a private of official residence.

You need to get your figures straight.

You know, where the problem is?


The DA especially, wants to develop copies of every file in government with the kinds of questions that are posed on a day to day basis to Parliament.

It becomes too much.

We need to hire people to come and answer the DA questions.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 153 When you do that, you develop site files.

You are obviously going to have gaps in those fines.
Therefore, you will come here and begin to talk about things that don’t exist, because the information in not balanced.

Allow the ANC to lead, because the electorate have decided the ANC must continue to lead this country.

My focus will be on Vote 11, as the Minister has indicated.

Within the mandate of the Public Service and Administration, the corporate arm of government, as already outlined by hon Kiviet, is building an effective, efficient and sustainable developmental and capable state.
Provincial governments are critical institutions in building a capable developmental state.

They provide the critical link between the national and local government.

They are vital delivering institutions that millions of South Africans across the country depend on.

The capabilities and the resilience of the provincial government is galvanised by the NCOP that has a role of promoting the principles of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 154 The department of Public Service and Administration continues to promote the principle of making public services a career of choice, by sharply focusing on programmes that deals with strong and healthy public service workforce for high performance in delivery of services to the people of South Africa.
These programmes entail the government employee housing scheme, government employee medical scheme, and in this address, I will also cover the Centre for Public Service Innovation, CPSI.

The critical public institutions are geared towards improving and enhancing the capacity of the state through innovation.

The government employee housing scheme was established in terms of the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council Resolution 7 of 2015.
The scheme assists government employees to access affordable housing through various interventions that include administration of housing allowance, provisioning of housing stock, production of the employee enrolment scheme for aggregation of demand, and providing advice, education and counselling to employees to improve their chances of accessing housing loans.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 155 Of the 1,3 million public servants, 1,1 million have accessed housing allowances.

To date, home ownership has increased to 774 235 that is 70,4%.

A further 189 856 that is 70% of the public servants, receive housing allowance for rental accommodation.

Approximately, R300 million is saved in the Individual-linked Savings Facility, ILSF, for public servants on a monthly basis.
As at 31 March 2023, over R90 billion has been saved by government employees in this ILSF.

Through the scheme, public servants who would not ordinarily qualify to access home loans finance from mainstream institutions have managed to do so successfully towards building home loans in urban and rural areas, especially in the province of Limpopo and KwaZulu-Natal.

Listen carefully, hon Badenhorst.

We are now talking about how public servants have really managed to successfully access housing.
[Interjections.]

No more poverty in rural areas that hits you in the face.

Palatable delivery of services is what you get.

Hon Badennhorst, if you have eyes to see and ears to hear, let us not allow ourselves to be detracted by the sideshows for political mileage gain.

Forward we move.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 156 The Budget, regarded as limited that is allocated for this programme is R14,6 million.
The mandate of the government employee medical scheme is to improve affordability of access to quality health care for public servants, resulting in a healthy workforce, an increased state capacity to deliver services.

Gems has grown to be the second largest medical aid scheme in South Africa.

Notable achievements include over one million of Gems beneficiaries have access to medical aid schemes for the first time in their lives, as a result of the broadened beneficiary definition.
The scheme has a track record of unqualified audits, since inception with the 2021-22 financial year unqualified audit opinion in the seventies.

Gems has the largest diabetes, HIV and hypertension disease management programmes amongst medical schemes with more than 148 037 active participants receiving R2,3 billion worth of HIV care per annum.

The scheme has adopted the Unaids 90-90-90 targets to ultimately end the epidemic.
Gems was able to cover the unpredictable Covid-19-related costs for each beneficiary in full.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 157 The Centre for Public Service Innovation mandate promotes state capacity building through innovation as catalyst for improved and sustained service delivery.

It is tasked with building and entrenching the culture and practice of innovation in the public sector.
In 2022-23 financial year, the Centre for Public Service Innovation undertook a number of new multiyear development projects that will be completed in the 2023-24 financial year, such as the virtual Thusong Service Centre that will start in the Northern Cape, to allow citizens to access services offered, without having to physically visit centres.
I wish to acknowledge our Techno Granny, Ms Phuti Ragophala, the public sector innovation ambassador, recipient of the 2023 Order of the Boabab, who upon retirement, completed a course in coding and robotics through the University of Johannesburg and continues to inculcate, on a voluntary basis, the culture of innovation in the education sector.

South is moving.

Badmouthing the country does not become a hindrance, hon Badenhost.
We are unstoppable and uncompromising in transforming and revolutionising the lives of South Africans.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 158 Some of the other CPSI innovations are our emergency medical service to efficiently manage planned patient transfers to deal with shortage of ambulances.
Partnering with youth innovators and youth organisations, the CPSI working together with officers of the premiers and enhancing the District Development Model, DDM, put in place digital inclusion and participation of youth across provinces in service delivery innovations through hackathon.

Hackathon, are teams of systems developers that progressively hack challenges through a digital revolution.
In partnership with the United Nations Development Programme, UNDP SA, CPSI piloted a citizen engagement mobile APP, named Let’s talk in two DDM sites – O R Tambo and Waterberg Districts that allows for reporting of service delivery problems in two-way communications between the citizens, councillors and officials.

The initiative will be rolled out across the country.

It is our way of trying to sort out service delivery problems.
In the previous financial year, CPSI hosted six Living Labs in Mthatha where learners from nine schools were introduced the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 159 Fourth Industrial Revolution skills, inclusive of artificial intelligence, such as robotics and coding.
These thinking and innovation workshops and annual public sector innovation awards are channels that encourages innovation in the public sector, be it internal or external, because we dot just focus public servants being innovative.

Every South African is allowed to come up with innovative ideas.

We must go beyond the era or period where people just complaining.

We want to enter into an era of people managing to identify challenges and managing to suggest solutions.
Public sector innovation continues the professionalisation of the public service, thus improving state capacity.

The centre has been allocated an annual budget of R46 million for the 2023-24 financial year.

In conclusion, the Department of Public Service and Administration will continue to undertake innovative measures towards building the state capacity, to deliver efficient UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 160 services.
The Vote is put forward for consideration.

I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Deputy Minister, I would like to recognise the guests of the Deputy Minister.

They are coming from the beautiful province of Gauteng, led by the leadership from the province of the ANC and the ANC Women’s League.

You are welcomed.
You are welcomed.

Ms M O MOKAUSE: Chairperson, on a point of order: ... Afrikaans: Mnr M A P DE BRUYN: Agb Voorsitter, die mooi verhale van sukses wat die Minister en haar Adjunk vandag hier aan ons probeer verkoop het is ongelukkig baie vêr van die waarheid af en die publiek daar buite wat daagliks die slagoffers van die swak diens by enige staatsinstansie is kan ongelukkig nie hierdie feeverhale verder glo nie.
Gaan vertel vir die bejaarde mense daar buite wat letterlik vir ure en vir dae aanmekaar moet sit en wag om sy of haar SA Agentskap vir Maatskaplike Sekerheid, Sassa, ... te kry, of vir die miljoene mense daar buite wat vir maande aaneen moet UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 161 sukkel om ’n eenvoudige ding soos ’n foutiewe munisipale rekening uit te sorteer.
Gaan vertel vir daardie mense van die departement se suksesse en dat die gehalte van diens oor die laaste 30 jaar verbeter het.

Niemand sal dit glo nie.

Die doel van hierdie departement is om effektiewe dienslewering en basiese dienste te verseker, maar dit is verseker nie die geval nie en die betalende publiek is die wat daaronder lei terwyl die salarisrekening van werkers in die Staatsdiens deur die dak styg, met kaders wat teen onrealistiese hoë salarisse aangestel word.
Die publiek het sy vertroue in die Staatsdiens verloor en met goeie rede as ons na die hoeveelheid korrupsie, wanadministrasie en die afwesigheid van basiese dienste gaan kyk.

Die ANC het dit die afgelope 30 jaar duidelik gemaak dat dienslewering aan die publiek nie vir hom ’n prioriteit is nie, maar dat selfverryking deur middel van kaderontplooiing, rassistiese arbeidswetgewing en korrupsie in die Staatsdiens eerder voorkeur geniet.
Persoonlike assistente wat vir persoonlike assistente aangestel word is een voorbeeld hiervan.

Dit, terwyl duisende poste in essensiële dienste soos UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 162 byvoorbeeld gesondheid vakant bly om hierdie trog vreters te kan finansier.
English: In her speech, the Minister referred to the Constitution, which states that: We, the people of South Africa ... adopt this Constitution as the supreme law of the Republic so as to ... improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the potential of each person ...

Please note that the Constitution refers to the quality of life of all citizens.

In other words, it refers to the general public and not only ANC cadres.
Spending 54% of the budget on salaries and only 35% on goods and services doesn’t seem to be in the interest of all who live in South Africa.
Afrikaans: Ons hoor nou al vir jare lank hoe hierdie departement ’n professionele en bekwame Staatsdiens gaan verseker, maar die feit dat ons elke jaar verder en verder wegbeweeg van hierdie ideaal af is ongelukkig die realiteit wat ons ervaar en dit is UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 163 ’n realiteit wat Suid-Afrika en sy mense nie verder kan bekostig nie.
Gevolgebestuur en dissiplinêre prosesse ontbreek in die Staatsdiens en tot dit nie verander nie kan geeneen verwag dat daar professionele en effektiewe dienslewering en basiese dienste sal wees nie.

Wat Suid-Afrika nodig het is ’n regering en ’n Staatsdiens wat die belange van alle Suid-Afrikaners prioritiseer en wat ’n mate van trots en etiek handhaaf om die mense van Suid-Afrika te dien.

Ons het nodig om die waarde van ons geld wat ons getrou aan die staat betaal te sien.
Ons het ’n regering nodig wat ons dien en nie net verwag dat ons hulle moet verryk nie.

Suid-Afrika het baie dinge nodig, maar die een ding wat ons verseker sonder kan klaarkom is die ANC, en dit sal duidelik gemaak word by die stembus in 2024.

English: I realise that I still have some time left but there is only so many ways in which to say that this department is not only failing in its mandate but is also failing South Africans in general.

Thank you.
Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 164 Mr B A MAJUBA (Mpumalanga): Hon Chair of this august House, esteemed hon members representing our provinces in the National Assembly, and all other dignitaries in our midst, on behalf of our Mpumalanga province I would like to extend warm greetings to all in the encroaching winter season.

I hope our greetings will certainly warm up everyone in the House.
We would also like to appreciate the opportunity granted on this platform to engage on the Budget Vote eloquently presented by our hon Minister of Public Service and Administration.

We have listened with great enthusiasm and appreciation of the content and aspects put before the nation regarding the strides made in this area of work, in particular the progress made by the National School of Government, NSG.

The NSG, an initiative to bolster the Public Service’s transformation ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

... efficiency, is a notable institutional support to our ever unfolding democratic dispensation.

We respectfully salute the minds and thoughts behind this innovation.

We value this as a light bearing torch that mirrors and ...

[Inaudible.]

... of intellectual endowment that this country possesses.

The NSG will certainly address the enormous challenges confronting the Public Service ... its programme.
The NSG covers a wide range of human UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 165 development in the public sector, a critical area of service to our citizens.

Our South African democratic transition project certainly requires such institutional support like the NSG as we emerge from a harshly divided nation that requires constant adaptation to empower and accommodate an avalanche of divergent social and economic backgrounds.
This is necessary to bring all on par in terms of capacitation for the achievement of a common goal, a country of socially and economically development-oriented empowered ...

[Inaudible.]

... vital transformative aspect is that of capacitating across gender stereotypes, where women form a part of training and development in leadership and management echelons, which were historically a male domain during the apartheid era.
In a period of almost 30 years of democratic change, the NSG is a necessary establishment to provide a platform for engagement in the policy positions adopted during the formative years of a new dispensation.

The NSG provides an appropriate opportunity to reconsider the impact of adopted policies in the forever changing environment.
As we governed, we learnt that there were many eventualities during governance UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 166 that require different methods and ways of operating the Public Service project, which will not ... earned by any government installed or voted for.

It will remain a state of flux.

Over years of governance at various levels, there were positive audit outcomes, whilst in some cases a myriad of negatives were experienced.
These efficiencies and deficiencies in accounting still require focus in correcting, through capacitation and accountability, training and measuring.

The NSG Vote of training and development came at an opportune moment as the greatest vehicle to professionalising the Public Service and straightening the out of shape systems and public servants alike.
We therefore appreciate the extra effort put in raising the resources through cost fees to enable intensive training and development in capacitating the public sector for effective and efficient service delivery.

We, in Basic Education find this institution extraordinarily helpful in learner growth path.
When educators and managers are capacitated, our learners easily grasp and understand the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 167 content of their subjects, and increase their performance levels.

Capacitated educators and managers will initiate programmes aimed at promoting innate capabilities.

This will propel the nation to greater innovation possibilities.
The introduction of competency assessment and psychometric testing that the NSG engages in, in selecting the appropriate candidate for employment, has great value for the Public Service, and our education department greatly benefits in this selection process, training and implementation.

We are in the throes of rigorously implementing e-learning.

We found the support in this programme effectively changing lives through the Fourth Industrial Revolution-related innovations.
Our leaners are catching up at a faster speed and will soon overtake us if we let our guards down in this area of pursuing electronic development.

The changes in the Public Service environment has really brought new challenges.

These include and are not limited to corruption, poor work ethic, fraudulent reports and labour unrest.
The NSG’s intervention in these challenges will ameliorate the extent to which these are eating into clean UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 168 governance and the progressive gains made since the advent of our democracy.

Concomitant to this will be the erosion of public confidence in the advances made in governance since the dawn of democracy.
The aim of dealing with lifestyle audits to arrest wanton and rampant corruption at senior and middle management levels in the Public Service will go a long way in arresting these divergent behaviours.

These tendencies are a cancer to our fledgling democratic government.

The co-ordination of anticorruption work as well as a central register on disciplinary cases would close the space for evasive and errant public sector practitioners.
Of critical importance to us is also the attention paid to promoting efficiency in political administrative confusion which is creeping into our governance system, a time bomb of mixing explosives in governance.

The NSG spread of its wings through bilateral ... with other countries such as Kenya and others, explains the maturity behind the leadership of the organisation.

This demonstrates the intellectual consideration held that knowledge is not constrained by boundaries.
The well UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 169 of knowledge is deep and unending.

We will certainly learn more and exchange our experience in various ... As I conclude, as the Mpumalanga government and the Department of Education in particular, we fully welcome and support the Budget Vote by the Minister of Public Service and Administration, hon Noxolo Kiviet.
With the mounting challenges facing the Public Service, the budget presented must be seen in the context of limited resources as against the great value it will yield in the facilitation of the huge programmes which need more support for achieving transformation objectives.

Thank you very much, hon Chair.


Mr N M HADEBE: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister and hon Deputy Minister, one important institution which gives effect to the constitutional vision we have as a country for a professional and accountable public service is the Department of Public Service and Administration.

This is so because it is a key component for South Africans to reach their developmental goals.
Given the social and economic upliftment needs in the country, we cannot afford and professional and unethical and unreliable UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 170 public servants.

Only a winning public service and government can ensure that we reach our fullest potential and fulfil our dreams, visions, and desires as a nation.

It is this that we should keep in mind when setting professional standards for our public servants.
These very standards are what will curb the defrauding, misusing and the blatant corruption of state funds, which is so rampant in our public service.

The rot is so deep and widespread so much that it has become a norm amongst our public servants.

Other Department of Public Service and Administration’s mandate, the National School of Government has been tasked with providing education with regard to public sector competency requirements and its professionalisation.
A recommendation made to the National School of Government is that it should conduct more e-learning training as this will ensure a better reach amongst employees while also keeping them up to date with the latest educational developments within the field.

This is not the only benefit, as e-learning also ensures cost reduction while providing state employees with full understanding of government theory, practicality and ethics.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 171 Disciplinary measure matters, which takes months and even years must be concluded as soon as possible as government employees undergoing disciplinary cases often still receive their salaries during their suspensions.

This means that these individuals get paid while not serving our people.

It is unacceptable because this constitutes wasteful expenditure.
Whilst aiding state employees in participating in educational programs to enhance the performance of the state, we ought to enforce a culture of holding accountable those who deviate from this and the oath of office they took.

Hon House Chairperson, after much consideration, the IFP support Budget Vote 11, Budget Vote 7 and Budget Vote 12.

Thank you, hon House Chairperson.

Mr J J LONDT: Good evening, hon House Chair.

I hope we are not going to seeing you going viral anytime soon.
I’m going to start with the Deputy Minister.

Deputy Minister, you took about a minute to greet everyone, then you went on and on and on and on about getting the ANC out of power.

Obviously, that affects you, and I think it’s good that it affects you because it’s due to your own inability to govern well that you are at risk.
It’s due to your own inability to implement working UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 172 policies that benefits the majority of South Africans that you are at risk.

You also said that we should respect democracy, but that’s exactly what we are doing.

We are respecting democracy by holding you accountable.
We are holding you accountable in Parliament where one of the mechanisms to hold the elected branch of government accountable is through questions; written questions and oral questions through having these debates.

You do not respect our democracy by complaining about us holding you accountable.

Democracy is also about respecting the press, respecting the judiciary, respecting civil society, and respecting the opposition.

Unfortunately, Deputy Minister, that lesson you still have to learn.
So maybe you should go to the school of governance for a crash course.

We are talking about meritocracy as well, and I want to understand if your superior, the Minister, can maybe answer a question when she comes back on how far the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, is in investigating you in the alleged fraud case, because you must set an example.

You UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 173 should be ashamed when you look at yourself in the mirror.
What example are you setting to South Africans and to the elected or the public servants?

When you change an organisation, it starts with a culture.

If this organisation is led by the Minister and Deputy Minister, it’s no wonder that South Africans are struggling for hours and hours at Home Affairs.

When they go to hospitals it is dirty and people are not looked after.

When they go to the South African Police Service, where they should be serviced, they are treated with disrespect.
If that is what your political principles show, then no wonder we are struggling across the board.

I want to give you a quick example.

Culture is when you walk up to a government building and there is somebody that greets you and they ask: How can we help you?

Where can I direct you?

When you go in there are people doing their job, from the time they clock in in the morning till the time they clock out in the evening.

That is not a fairy tale; it happens day in and day out where the DA governs.
You can go now to the Mossel Bay Municipality, and you will see the difference with what the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 174 culture does there to what you have established.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

I’m laughing because you are actually failing South Africa’s future, but you’re doing it internally as well because your youngest member is probably the honorary youth member, Fikile Mbalula.
You do not have a working youth structure anymore because they know your party is failing and is going to be voted out of government.

All of your youth members left the ANC and got dressed in red.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: On a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, hon members.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: House Chair, is the member ready to take a question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Order, hon members.
Hon member, can you take a question?

Mr J J LONDT: Pose your question.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 175 The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Besides focusing more on endless questions, what is it that you are actually ding for South Africans in a form of innovative solutions to deal with challenges of this country?

Mr J J LONDT: That is such a good question.


I am going to quickly touch on the hon Majuba and then I will come back to you, hon Deputy Minister.

Hon Majuba, you should be ashamed that you are leading a government that leaves 80% of our 12-year-olds that cannot read for comprehension.

Now, hon Deputy Minister, we have policies that we present day in and day out, but it seems you are following the leader of the 12-year-olds and you cannot read for comprehension.
However, I will send them to you, and I will also ask that we maybe send some graphics with so that you can maybe understand that.

it is unacceptable how you have led this country down the wrong path.

You just cannot acknowledge and accept that.

So, I have said that you have failed your own youth internally, you have failed the youth of the country by not giving them a proper education.
I do hope that the youth in South Africa stands up the same way as the youth in Zambia stood up and voted the government out ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 176 [Time expired.]

... so that you can experience how democracy works.

If you fail in a democratic state, you should be voted out.

I thank you.
I thank you.

Mr M I RAYI: Hon House Chairperson, greetings to you, greetings to the Minister, Deputy Minister, hon members, permanent and special delegates, Director Generals, and the heads of the of the entities of the department.

The goal of the Public Service Commission hon Badenhorst, as constitutional obligation is to oversee public service.

To provide general public with adequate and effective services.
Public Service Commission has the authority to oversee, assess and evaluate personnel procedures.

Its authority comes from section 196 of the Constitution of 1996.

And it responsible for ensuring that hiring, transfers, promotions and terminations are done in accordance with the law.

Is also aids in the selections of the best individuals to manage the public sector.
In order to preserve an effective and efficient public administration and a high standard of professional ethics in the public service, the Public Service Commission must use its UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 177 authority and carry out its duties without fear, favour or bias.

This demonstrates a government dedication to a meritocratic society.
The President in 2019 Sona speech identified that the lack of coherence in planning and in implementation has made monitoring and oversight of government’ programme difficult.

The consequence has been nonoptimal delivery of services and diminish impact on the triple challenges of poverty, inequality, and unemployment.
The district the development model was then introduced to accelerate, align, and integrate services delivery under a single development plan per district or metro that is developed jointly by national, provincial and local government, as well as business, labour and community in each district.
It further ensures that national priorities such as economic growth and unemployment, improvements to living condition, the fight against crime and corruption and better education outcomes are attended to in the locality concept.
According to the Public Service Commission it was easy to manipulate the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 178 recruitment and selection process in the public sector, and human resources staff members ability and competency were top concern.
The PSC stated that difficulties in the process had a negative impact on the employee performance and strain departmental labour relation and the management of poor performance was inadequate when reporting to committee, in a virtual meeting on studies to access the effectiveness of the recruitment and selection and the impact of competency assessment, aimed at appointing competent and capable candidates.
The Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, developed a regulatory framework supported the norms and standard to establish the recruitment and selection criteria as well as organisational structure and appointment procedures within the department.

The evaluation of jobs to determine salaries and grading and the Employment Equity Plan, which was crucial in determining the type of staff that should be hired.
A failure to adhere to the regulatory framework, created difficulties in the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 179 recruitment and selection process and resulted in investigation and erroneous appointments.

Delays in hiring were caused by insufficient delegation of power.

To address the difficulty comprehending and interpreting the legislation, the department ran workshops and issued guidelines.
According to the PSC the main concluding of its study shows that in some cases the recruiting and selection process had been successful in ensuring that employment equity was attain.

In general race goals have been met particularly at senior management service level.

The devolution of authority and decentralisation did not always support objectivity and justice in hiring and selecting procedure.

On the expansion of training and development through the National School of Government, NSG.
The National School of Government committed to a new vision, mission and the creation of a framework for defined future outcomes in 2020.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 180 We acknowledge that the dynamic way in which our approach is playing out, necessitate adjustment to National School of Government operation and structure configuration, especially in light of the COVID-19 pandemic effect.
The five-year strategy also places a lot on emphasis on total quality management.

The impact of National School of Government programmes, international and domestic partnership, training delivery modalities and reaching a wider public sector market through expanded mandate.
Since the implementation of the five-year strategy, the NSG has made significant strides over the past two years, including the following: adoption of synchronise and asynchronies modalities of learning to enable virtual and online learning, is as seen as extential growth in the e-learning enrolments over the past two years.

Boastful successful leadership interventions, including the school on economic governance, programme on executive oversight and master classes in international speaker.
Partnership with ten national institutions as well as international institutions.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 181 The international partnership has resulted in a significant uptake of programmes being made available to South African public servants.

Rollout of flagship programmes in the areas of effective governance, gender and transformation, leadership induction and the policy regulation.
House Chairperson, skills audits are typically conducted to ascertain the level of skills of employees.

Such audits have identified gabs in required competences after which appropriate capacity building intervention can be designed.

These audits establish the skill matrixes for governance and measured competencies of employees against predetermined set of skills required for public service.

In a local government setting skills audits are key instruments to map the competency profile of the department.
This done by outlining gabs in individual skills, combining strategies and plans for skills development, and improving municipalities overall capacity to deliver on their developmental and constitutional mandates.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 182 On increasing technical and financial human resources capacity, the Public Service Commission produced a report on the effectiveness of the continuous employee development in public service.
The objectives of the study were to assess the use of skills levy by departments, to identify and assess the influence of the Fourth Industrial Revolution and other factors on the selection of training programmes.

And assess the efficiency and the effectiveness of the human resources, developing processes, proposing intervention and alternative to improve continuous employee development in the public service.
The findings of the report include among others; the challenge with the implementation of policies, budget limitations were identified as underlying challenge related to the implementation of human resources development policies and programmes, as well as general lack of compliance and capacity of HRD units.

Before I run out of time, I just need to respond to some of the issues that were raised here.
Hon Londt, it’s clear that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 183 you never read the annual clans of the department and its entities.

It was very clear when you were standing here.

Hon Badenhorst, you can judge the issue of benefits of the executive and then conclude that, that it is a wasteful expenditure because all the spheres of government or the arms of government do get benefits.
You get a free house with the furniture, you get a ticket for airplanes, you get paid for the transport that you use.

You got an office here, you also got a support staff, it depends on the levels.

The executive, even in your own province also get these benefits.

In fact, your own DA mayor was whisked away by the security.

He is getting a security because of the level where he is in terms of the position that he holds.
So, you can’t come here ... this issue of the 2024, you think that... you’ve been doing these things, when you were a Democratic Party and then you merged with the National Party and formed the DA, your aim was to get rid of the ANC and you failed.

Over the years you’ve been saying this thing, I was here in 2014, towards 2019 you were saying that come 2019, 2019 came the ANC is still in power.
You’ve been doing this every term, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 184 thinking that because you come here... and your problems is that when you focus to the ANC in 2019 you were focusing on the ANC, today we have FF Plus in the NCOP, which we never had because your focus was only on the ANC.

And you are still focusing on the ANC again.

You are not telling the electorate what is it that you will be doing for them, all that you are focusing on is the ANC.
The ANC supports this, Bill.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon House Chair, let me start by indicating to this august House that because the debate has focused more on public servants and what they get, the salary bill and ... let me quickly indicate that just last week we were with the Deputy President in KwaZulu-Natal, working on the human resource development, HRD, and with the Council for Human Resource Development.

And the issue that has ...

[Inaudible.]


upon about our learners who cannot read is a subject matter of the Human Resource Development Council of the country to say what is it that is needed to be changed.

And these are structures and fora that are created multisectoral in outlook and they deal with the challenges in the human resource development space, whether it is in school or it is for the workplace.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 185 This kind of social compacts that have been signed there between academics and community representatives because as the ANC in government, we are seized with resolving community challenges.

That is what the role of government is.


But secondly, let me also indicate that we are at advanced states in negotiating with the public sector with respect to the minimum service level agreement so that we do not as a country find ourselves in the same situation where there would be disagreements in the negotiations that would lead to the members of the community not getting the services that they are supposed to get, especially in the health services.
That minimum service level agreement is going to determine the minimum standards of service that must be in each health and the important sectors of our society, such as security to ensure that we don’t find ourselves in the quagmire again.

So, we are a government at work to deal with and resolve the people’s challenges.

It is unfortunate that the hon Londt will use this platform and try and change its objectives – that of debating people’s issues and transforming it into a kangaroo court.
This is not a kangaroo court – it’s a platform to deal with people’s problems.

South Africa has systems that are democratic.

When UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 186 it is said that there is an investigation that affects you, it does not mean that you are guilty.

Gone are the days where Biko would have been killed without having being heard and without having been found guilty.
For as long as the DA is propagating that kind of message to communities, that you can be found guilty without a fair hearing.

People will not reinstate through the back door by voting the DA.

They will never do that because they know what it is to live in a democratic country with rights.
As I conclude, let me thank my Deputy Minister for the support – the director-general and the team, the chair of the Public Service Commission, as well as the leaders of our national School of Government, the Centre for Public Service Innovation, CPSI, and all those who have contributed to this budget of the department.

I am looking forward to working with our social partners to ensure that our country is led and people are provided with the quality of services that they deserve.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, hon delegate, that concludes the debate and the business of the day.

I would like to thank the Minister, Deputy Minister, permanent UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 23 MAY 2023 Page: 187 delegates, MECs, all special delegates and Salga representatives for availing themselves for the sitting.

Debate concluded.

The Council rose at 18:59.