Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698137425865.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 1 WEDNESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF HYBRID NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES ____ The Council met at 14:03.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The Deputy Chairperson announced that the virtual sitting constituted a Sitting of the National Council of Provinces.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Delegates in the sitting enjoys the same powers and privileges that applies in the sitting of the National Council of Provinces.

For purposes of decorum all delegates who are locked into the virtual platform shall be considered present.

If you want to speak, you should switch in your video and also ensure that your microphones on the gadgets are muted and must remain muted unless you are speaking.
The delegates in the Chamber must connect to the virtual platforms as well as insert the card to register on the Chamber system.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 2 Delegates who are physically in the Chamber must use the floor microphones.

All delegates may participate in the discussions through the chart room and the interpretation facility is active.

I must mention that on the virtual platform there will be a challenge with regard to interpretation.
We really hope they will address it.

I really hope it will be addressed so that we don’t have a problem with actually accessing information by the House.

Before we go to the motions or notices of motion I just want to welcome all the special delegates.

I see red in front of me, the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, the young lion is inside in the House.

You are welcome.

And I have been informed that so far for the debate there is confirmation from the Minister Mathale, Deputy Minister of Police.
With regard to the rest of the other special delegates who will be participating in today’s sitting, you are more than welcome.

And we also want to welcome our permanent delegates and members of the National Council of Provinces.

I really want UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 3 the time today for motions.

Adv, I want the time today for the motions because we have got a very long programme today.
And so, when we start with the motions, I am going to allow only 20 minutes today for both notices of motion as well as motions without notice.

Adv, I want the Table to assist us when we start with the issue of motions and notices of motion because I wasn’t locked into the virtual platform as yet.

But we will now allow an opportunity to delegates ... Mr A ARNOLDS: Deputy Chairperson, can I raise a point of order?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Yes, you may.
Mr A ARNOLDS: Deputy Chairperson, we want to raise a serious concern in terms of our members and I think it is fair that we raise this issue because our members are not given an opportunity to fully participate in their own language when it comes to the debate, when it comes to questions and when it comes also to committees.
So, please, House Chairperson, we want to fully participate in our own language and we want you to swear at us whether the interpretation facilities will be sorted out, will be addressed accordingly and that we don’t UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 4 have this challenge in terms of the interpretations services not available for members.

Thank you, Deputy Chair.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you, hon member for raising that point because if you were present when I was informed then you would have seen have seen my reactions, you will have known that I have got the interest of the members at heart.

But unfortunately I cannot throw the temperament that I am throwing in front of you members for things that are not working.

But we really take note of it and we think is a serious issue.
Also, we were just join by hon the Minister of Police, Ndosi, welcome.

Mr M NHANHA: Point of order, Deputy Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Yes, hon Nhanha.

Thanks for taking my hand.

Deputy Chairperson, you have just mentioned that because of time constraints today you will actually be timing us and I do realised that its well within your powers.

I don’t contest that.

But I am worried people like myself I have a very important motion, which is quite longish.
I wanted to check if tomorrow we will have an opportunity, and I am happy to withdraw it today for the sake of time.

Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 5 I don’t hear you, if tomorrow ... Mr M NHANHA: My question is; will we have motions tomorrow?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I will find out then we will respond to that.

What is happening tomorrow?

There is a debate.

There should be motions.

But the Whips must agree.


That is not within our powers.

The Whips must agree.

So, your Whip has taken note of it.

I am sure they will take it to the, Chief Whip.

The Whips must agree on that one.

Mr M NHANHA: Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): And also I don’t know how you say its longish because we have got time.

Do you have time limits in terms of how things should be raised?

I don’t understand the longish business.


Hon members, it is exactly 14:08 and we will now give delegates time to raise on the issues of notices of motion.
NOTICES OF MOTION UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 6 Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the Council – Debates the readiness and assurances of the ability of the SA Security Forces to deal with and avert any security threats including terrorism.
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the EFF: That the Council – Debates abandoned Coal mines, which possess deadly threats to their surrounding communities.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the Council – UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 7 Debates the decisive combating the increase in kidnapping especially of young kids for the huge ransom in South Africa.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the FF Plus: That the Council – Debates the pollution of water resources by municipalities in the Mangaung Metro.

Thank you.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Who is this now?

Hon De Bruyn, I hope the Table can actually make out what you actually have said.

But we accept the notice of motion.


Ms N NDONGENI: Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC: The Council – UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 8 Debates collaborative action geared, strengthening and accelerating meaningful social compact response to the scourge of gender-based violence in South Africa.
Ms B T MATHEVULA: Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the EFF: That the Council – Debates an increase in the vehicle theft, which is being assisted by SAPS officials who are working with border patrols.
NORTH WEST POLICE OFFICERS IMPLICATED IN ESCAPE OF CRIMINAL DETAINEES (Draft Resolution) Ms C VISSER: Hon Deputy Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the DA: That the Council— UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 9 (1) notes that 44 North West police officers have been identified as having aided the escape of criminal detainees, to evade justice in the province; (2) further notes that 206 detainees have escaped from police custody while awaiting trial or sentencing since 2019, of which 144 detainees have been apprehended to date while 62 suspects are still on the run; (3) also notes that these suspects managed to escape from holding cells during transit in between court appearances or while in hospital; (4) understands that they are alleged to have committed a variety of heinous crimes ranging from murder and attempted murder to the illegal possession of firearms; (5) also understands that most of the jailbreaks took place from the Mahikeng, Potchefstroom, Boitekong and Rustenburg police stations; and (6) welcomes the fact that the provincial police commissioner, Lt-Gen Kwena will lay criminal charges against these 44 implicated police officers.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 10 Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
FAMILY OF SIX KILLED IN HORRIFIC ACCIDENT ON N4 IN MBOMBELA (Draft Resolution) Ms A D MALEKA: Deputy Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC: That the Council— (1) notes with great sadness the death of a family of six, including three children, who were killed in a horrific truck accident on the N4, on Sunday afternoon, 6 November 2022; (2) further notes the horrific collision involving a heavy articulated coal truck and a family sedan that occurred on the N4 near Elandshoek in Mbombela; (3) also notes that this is the second major crash that occurred recently in the province, with the other one having occurred on the R544 road between Verena and Emalahleni, claiming the lives of five more people; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 11 (4) calls on motorists to always be cautious and to observe road safety regulations in order to avoid further loss of life; and (5) conveys our heartfelt condolences to the families and relatives of the deceased, and wishes the driver a speedy recovery.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CALLS FOR THABA CHWEU MUNICIPALITY OFFICIALS TO BE INVESTIGATED FOR TRANSGRESSION OF MUNICIPAL FINANCE MANAGEMENT ACT (Draft Resolution) Ms H S BOSHOFF: Deputy House Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the DA ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Why must you add, House?

You can just say Deputy Chair.

Afrikaans: Ag, ek sal jou maar agb Voorsitter noem.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 12 English: I move without notice on behalf of the DA: That the Council— (1) notes that the DA in the Thaba Chweu Municipality has written to the Public Servants Association of South Africa, PSA, to investigate all the officials implicated in the transgression of the Municipal Finance Management Act; (2) further notes that a whistle-blower released a report to the oversight committee, detailing how senior officials received kickbacks after they influenced the awarding of certain tenders; (3) also notes that this whistle-blower has been victimised and has received death threats; (4) understands that no communication from the municipality with regard to its stance on the report and no investigation has been initiated; (5) further understands that Ms Matsi, the former municipal manager, is said to be at the centre of these tender UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 13 fiascos and it is common knowledge that her inefficiency has cost the Thaba Chweu Municipality millions in wasteful expenditure, and is denying residents accountable governance; (6) also understands that Ms Matsi was irregularly appointed in 2019 on a five-year contract, defying numerous council resolutions which called for her to vacate her position as the accounting officer; (7) recalls that when the DA escalated this matter to the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the department concurred with the DA to have her removed; (8) acknowledges that the Hawks in Mpumalanga have started fighting the rot which has arisen in the licencing department by arresting those implicated in corruption; and (9) also acknowledges that the DA will continue to monitor the appointment of a new municipal manager to ensure that all legislation is upheld when selecting a suitable candidate for this position, and to ensure that all officials involved be investigated.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 14 The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you, hon Boshoff.

Hon members, I think we have been very lenient in this House.

So, if you exceed one and a half minutes, we will stop you and you won’t continue with your ... We will send the motion to where it belongs, as a notice of motion.

I’m putting it as a precautionary measure for those who still want to follow with longish motions.

Hon Mamaregane?
Hon Mamaregane?

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
BODY OF MISSING 21-MONTH-OLD MOTHEO RASHILO FOUND IN BUSHES NEAR MALATANE IN LEBOWAKGOMO (Draft Resolution) Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC: That the Council— (1) notes with great shock the finding of the body of a missing 21-month toddler, Motheo Rashilo, in bushes near Malatane in Lebowakgomo on Wednesday, 02 November 2022; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 15 (2) also notes that the child was reported missing on 28 October 2022, when the mother allegedly left her at her friend's home while she ran errands, and when she returned she was informed that the child had disappeared; (3) welcomes the opening of an inquest docket by the Limpopo police to ascertain the cause of her death; and (4) appeals to community members with information to work with law enforcement agencies by giving more information that will assist them in their investigation.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon members, we have serious problem of child murders in this country.

It is not nice to hear it all the time.

Next will be hon Jankielsohn.
FREE STATE’S NONFUNCTIONING SEWAGE SYSTEMS (Draft Resolution) UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 16 Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Madam Deputy Chair, I move without notice on behalf of the DA: That the Council— (1) notes with concern that most towns and communities in the Free State do not have functional sewage systems; (2) also notes that many towns and communities in the Free State do not have access to reliable and safe water in their taps; (3) recognises that this has an impact on the dignity of residents and impacts on their constitutional right of access to water and a healthy environment; (4) acknowledges that this needs urgent intervention that will require co-operation between national, provincial and local governments, and (5) resolves that the water and sanitation situation be regarded as a provincial disaster in terms of the Disaster Management Act in order to allow urgent intervention in a co-ordinated manner that includes the allocation of the necessary UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 17 resources to mitigate this constant threat to the lives and livelihoods of residents.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): The people of the Free State have been very busy over these few days.
SEWAGE DISASTER IN MANGAUNG METROPOLITAN MUNICIPALITY (Draft Resolution) Mr M S MOLETSANE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on behalf of the EFF: That the Council— (1) notes the massive sewage disaster currently experienced in Mangaung Metropolitan Municipality; (2) further notes that Bloemfontein, once regarded as the city of roses, is but a shadow of itself as the city is blossoming with raw sewage spillages all over the streets of Mangaung; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 18 (3) also notes that the city should now be renamed the city of sewage; (4) acknowledges that the state of the municipality poses a health risk to residents, and as such the municipality has contravened section 24 and section 27 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa; (5) also acknowledges that the sewage infrastructure of the metro is outdated and has been left neglected for years; (6) calls for immediate intervention in that metro as there exists no political will from the ruling party to fix the filth.
The motion without notice, having not been agreed to, becomes a notice of motion.

AN HONORARY DOCTORATE OF LAW TO THENJIWE MTHINTSHO (Draft Resolution) Ms D G MAHLANGU: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 19 That the House- (1) notes with appreciation the decision of the University of Rhodes to confer an honorary Doctorate of Law to the Hon.
Ambassador Thenjiwe Mthintsho in recognition of her immense and incalculable sacrifice in the fight for human rights culture in this country; (2) notes that Miss Mthintsho was born in an African working class family, is a former student at Rhodes University, a former commander of the people’s army, Umkhonto We Sizwe, a former Member of Parliament in the NA, the first ANC female Deputy Secretary-General from 2007, and now the Ambassador of South Africa in Malawi; (3) further notes that Ambassador Mthintsho’s life will go down the annals of history as an embodiment of the collective heritage of struggles of the people of South Africa against racism, gender and class oppression; and (4) expresses a profound sense of appreciation to the Council of the Rhodes University for their bold and courageous decision, and congratulates Ambassador Mthintsho on her recognition by Rhodes University.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 20 Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SANRAL’S WILLINGNESS TO ASSUME MAINTENANCE OF R708 (Draft Resolution) Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice: That the House- (1) notes SANRAL’s willingness to assume maintenance of the life-threatening R708 road between Winburg and Theunissen in the Free State, and the only requirement is for the premier to write a letter to this effect to the Minister of Transport; (2) also notes that in light of the fact that such a request would take pressure off the provincial department and save lives by preventing accidents, that the House strongly encourages the premier to make such a request without delay; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 21 (3) further notes, that the S234 gravel road falls under municipal jurisdiction and its current conditions after the rain is hampering the economic and agricultural activities in the Tswelopele and Tokologo regions of the province; (4) recognises that the district council has confirmed that a brand new grader is in its possession, but is not being used; and (5) calls upon the district municipality and the provincial government to urgently do everything in its power to assist with the grading of the road to prevent further damage to the local economy and agricultural sector.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
THE SENTENCING OF A PASTOR (Draft Resolution) Ms M N GILLION: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 22 That the House- (1) welcomes the sentencing of a pastor to 54 years’ imprisonment, after being found guilty of raping two girls and possessing child pornography; (2) notes that the Oudtshoorn Regional Court on Monday, 07 November 2022, sentenced the pastor, after he was convicted on three counts of rape, three counts of indecent assault, one of sexual assault and 26 counts of child pornography; (3) also notes that the pastor had indecently assaulted and raped a 13-year-old in 2003 at his house, office and church; (4) recalls that the pastor also sexually assaulted and raped his 14-year-old adopted daughter in his house, office and church; and (5) condemns any form of violence against women and children and hopes that this sentence will send a stern warning to other would-be rapists and abusers of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 23 children that the courts will do everything in their power to jail them for a very long time.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ryder, ... Afrikaans: ... dis nie nou beseringstyd nie.
PROBLEMS IN THE EMFULENI LOCAL MUNICIPALITY (Draft Resolution) Mr D R RYDER: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice: That the House- notes that we have repeatedly heard of the problems in the Emfuleni Local Municipality; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 24 also notes that the municipality was recently taken out of section 139 administration by the provincial government, purportedly for reasons of political expediency; further notes that the executive mayor of Emfuleni, and an apparent admission of its own caucus’s inadequacies recently appointed an acting mayor from another political party to act in his absence; recalls that Eskom has now secured a R1,3 billion judgments against the municipality for not adhering to their payment arrangements; also recalls that the municipality remains unable to fulfill its constitutional mandates, due to the financial crisis, which is proven to be consistent and protracted; agrees that the provincial executive has failed to rectify the situation during a period of administration that lasted almost five years; and therefore, recommends to the Minister of Co-operative Governance that she invokes the powers, in terms of section 1397 of the Constitution and consequently dissolves the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 25 Emfuleni Local Municipality to allow the residents to exercise their right to vote in a competent local government to begin the road to recovery.
In light of the objection, the motion without notice will become a notice of motion.
CONFLICT OF INTEREST BY A SHERIFF (Draft Resolution) Mr S F DU TOIT: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice: That the House- (1) Mr D R RYDER notes that Mr Shabalala, a sheriff appointed in Secunda, serves as a board member on the South African Board for Sheriffs; (2) also notes that Mr Shabalala is also the chairperson of the South African Board for Sheriffs’ Human Resources and Social and Ethics Committee and serves on the Complaints committee; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 26 (3) further notes that the South African Board for Sheriffs refused to issue a Fidelity Fund Certificate for the sheriff, Mr Van Wyk, in Potchefstroom and Mr Shabalala has subsequently been appointed as the sheriff in Potchefstroom; (4) notes that Mr Shabalala has a conflict of interest, in serving on the board, and availing himself to act as sheriff in Potchefstroom, and being complicit in refusing to issue Mr Van Wyk’s Fidelity Fund Certificate, in order to enable Mr Van Wyk to service Potchefstroom; (5) also notes that, since Mr Shabalala’s appointment in the Potchefstroom office, the offices have not yet been fully furnished and service to attorneys and the community of Potchefstroom is of a poor standard; and (6) requests the Minister of Justice and Correctional, Lamola, to intervene and rectify the matter as soon as possible, since the current appointment is not in the best interest of justice and good practice.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 27 Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
THE KILLING OF SIX PEOPLE IN A SHACK (Draft Resolution) Ms L C BEBEE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice: That the House- (1) notes with great shock the killing of six people in a shack in Claremont, after unknown gunmen opened fire on them, on Friday, 04 November 2022; (2) also notes that the men were murdered in a one-room shack in the settlement, and one man survived the ordeal; (3) recalls that these killings occurred after the Police Minister, Mr Bheki Cele, recently visited Claremont Township, where he hosted an imbizo geared at tackling the high crime rate in that community; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 28 (4) recognises that crime in that areas still continues unabated and residents are living in fear, as they always hear gunshots at night and mostly on weekends; and (5) appeals to citizens to work with investigators to bring the perpetrators to book and trusts that the police will do everything in their ability to find the perpetrators.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

THE FIRST EVER IRON MAN HOSTED SUCCESSFULLY BY THE TOWN OF MOSSEL BAY (Draft Resolution) Afrikaans: Mnr J J LONDT: Agb Ondervoorsitter, u sit al so lank in die stoel, dat u amper die Voorsitter is.
English: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 29 That the House- (1) congratulates the town of Mossel Bay for successfully hosting the first ever Iron Man, in this beautiful coastal town on Sunday, 6 November 2022; (2) notes that the Isuzu Ironman 70,3 Mossel Bay includes a 1,9 km swim, which starts on the historic Santos Beach, followed by a 90 km cycling event that turns into the Gouritz River Valley and concludes with a 21,1km run with the finish line under the watchful eye of the St Blaize lighthouse at The Point; (3) notes and appreciates that such a successful event is only possible through partnerships across the government and private sector, taking hands and ensuring that athletes and spectators alike had an experience to remember and cherish; (4) conveys a special word of thanks and appreciation to the following role-players for going above and beyond in guaranteeing the success of the race, namely: Sponsors at Isuzu, Mr Celestin Ndhlovu the Vice President for Strategy, Planning and Marketing, as well UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 30 as Mr Chule Qalase the senior Manager for CSR and Sustainability; the Managing Director Mr Keith Bowler and Jody Veress-Bowler, from the Ironman itself, for bringing this event to the Southern Cape and long may it continue; mayor Ald Dirk Kotze, the municipal manager, Mr Colin Puren, director Elize Nel, Mr Abri Nel from the Municipality, as well as their dedicated teams showing what servant leadership in local government means, and the Mossel Bay Tourism, ;and (5) congratulates the overall winners in both the categories, who ensured that many thousands along the route and following the race online were inspired and Mr Bradley Weiss and Ms Emma Pallant-Browne, you will forever be known as the inaugural Isuzu Ironman 70,3 in Mossel Bay winners.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
APPLICANTS TO THE INTERNSHIP AND COMMUNITY SERVICE PROGRAMME (Draft Resolution) UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 31 Mr I NTSUBE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice: That the House- (1) welcomes the Department of Health’s completion of the process of allocating all eligible medical interns and community service applicants to the Internship and Community Service Programme; (2) notes that the next annual intake is scheduled to commence in January 2023; (3) also notes that the department has placed all 9 647 eligible South African citizens and permanent residents who have applied; (4) further notes that of the 9 647 applicants, 2 402 will occupy medical internship opportunities, while 7 245 were allocated to community service to enhance the public health sector, as part of the last phase of their academic programme; (5) recalls that 74% of applicants were allocated to health facilities based in rural and semi-rural areas, as part UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 32 of government efforts to prioritize rural and under- served areas in the country; and (6) supports the Department of Health’s efforts to ensure that South Africa has access to comprehensive, quality health services, irrespective if the socioeconomic status.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SIR SYDNEY WOOLF KENTRIDGE TURNS 100 (Draft Resolution) Mr M A NHANHA: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council – (1) notes and congratulates Sir Sydney Woolf Kentridge who on 05 November 2022 turned 100 years; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 33 (2) further notes Sir Sydney Woolf Kentridge was born on 5 November 1922 to Morris and May Kentridge, in Johannesburg, South Africa; (3) acknowledges his father, Morris, was a lawyer and politician who first served as a Member of Parliament for the Labour Party and later on for the United Party; (4) further acknowledges Sir Sydney Kentridge passed his matric at the age of 16 years at King Edward VII in Johannesburg; (5) further notes that he furthered his studies by registering at the University of Witwatersrand.
It is at Witwatersrand University where he was elected to serve in the SRC and in 1941 he stood firm against segregation of any form by voting against segregation of students on campus; (6) also notes in 1942 during the Second World War, Sir Kentridge enlisted his services, delaying his studies and laying his life on the line by fighting against Nazism and Fascism in East and North Africa.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 34 Afterwards, he went on to fight for the liberation of Italy against fascism; (7) acknowledges after the war ended, Sir Kentridge resumed his studies at Oxford University, obtained a law degree and in 1949 he was admitted to the Johannesburg Bar; (8) further acknowledges amongst his long list of achievements against the Nationalist government, he successfully asserted to the Appellate Division in Bloemfontein that the repressive government could not unilaterally suspend Solly Sachs’s passport who was a well-known trade unionist.
He also represented other luminaries such as iNkosi Albert Luthuli and Winnie Mandela; (9) notes that Sir Kentridge showed his legal brilliance when he represented President Nelson Mandela and some of the 156 accused in the first treason trial involving our late President between 1958 and 1961.

As history will tell us, the entire 156 treason trial accused were all found not guilty.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 35 (10) In 1965 he appeared alongside Arthur Chaskalson ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... it is not right what you are doing.

It’s not right what you are doing and I did want to be funny because it is a very interesting story you are telling, very interesting but it is not right what you are doing.

Hon Nhanha, should we agree to the motion or you would want to put it as a notice of a motion?
I am asking you although I should have ruled, I am asking you.

Mr M A NHANHA: Chair, it is something very close to my heart.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I know but unfortunately we have got Rules.

Mr M A NHANHA: Maybe we should put it as a notice of a motion, Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will let you submit it as a notice of motion.

I think I will speak to you so that we can have a title for the kind of debate that you are bringing.
I will take Mandela, you will take Sir Kentridge and someone else will take someone else.

That is it.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 36 Mr M A NHANHA: Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We will make it a notice of motion because it is how it is in the Rules.

We are following the Rules.
SENIOR CITIZENS TO THE RESCUE IN LAMONTVILLE (Draft Resolution) Ms N E NKOSI: Deputy Chair, I move without notice: That the Council – (1) commends the bravery of a group of senior citizens who nabbed two armed robbers who held up a post office in Lamontville, Durban, on Wednesday 2 November 2022; (2) also notes that the three armed men entered a post office in Lamontville at 10:00 AM and held the staff at gunpoint in front of around 200 elderly people waiting patiently for their pension payout, and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 37 forced the manager and staff to open the safe and stole two bags containing cash; (3) also understands that the group of senior citizens were having none of it and chased the suspects and managed to apprehend two of the three men.
Unfortunately, the suspect carrying the cash and firearm managed to flee into the bushes and the two men will appear in the Durban Magistrate’s Court on charges of business robbery; (4) congratulate the law-abiding citizens for their bravery and courage to act against crime; and (5) request the SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, to look at the security of senior citizens waiting in queues.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
FIVE SLAIN IN NDWEDWE MASS SHOOTING (Draft Resolution) UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 38 Ms S A LUTHULI: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council – (1) notes ... IsiZulu: ... ukudlula emhlabeni kukaMthethwa Mbongiseni, Ngcobo Langelihle, Ngcobo Lungelo, Ngcobo Nkosikhona kanye noCele Mthobisi; English: (2) also notes that the five males, aged between 21 and 43 years of age ... IsiZulu: (3) badlule emhlabeni ngenxa yesigameko esenzeke eNdwedwe ezigcemeni u-18 lapho kume khona imoto yadedela inhlamvu kubantu ababehlezi esitolo; English: (4) acknowledges the rising number of mass shootings in KwaZulu-Natal ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 39 IsiZulu: ... njengoba lesi sigameko kungesesithathu kule ndawo yaseNdwedwe kungakapheli ngisho nezinyanga ezimbili; English: (5) further acknowledges that the safety and security of our people are currently under threat ... IsiZulu: ... njengoba lezi zigameko zokudutshulwa ziqhubeka nokuletha ukwesaba nokungahlaliseki emphakathini esiyakhele; futhi (6) sidlulisa amazwi endududuzo emindenini yalaba abahlanu abadlulile emhlabeni, sengathi imimoya yabo ingalala ngokuphumula.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution UCT’S DEEPENING GOVERNANCE CRISIS (Draft Resolution) UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 40 Mr M E NCHABELENG: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council – (1) notes with concern the persistent media reports about the deepening crisis of governance at one of the premier institutions of our higher learning, the University of Cape Town; (2) also notes that the crisis, if not averted, does not only damage the international reputation of this premier institution of higher learning but may polarise the entire university community and threaten the culture of effective learning; (3) further notes whilst we recognise and respect the academic freedom and the institutional autonomy of the university to manage and resolve its governance and administrative challenges, it is equally our view that, in the public interest, the Minister of Higher Education, Innovation and Science and Technology must intervene to avert any possible crisis; and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 41 (4) calls on Dr Emmanuel Bonginkosi Nzimande, the Minister of Higher Education to intervene in this crisis and report to this House at the earliest convenience.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There are three members that I will request they must submit their motions to the Table, and it'll be printed on the Order Paper in the next meeting.

That is hon Bara, hon Bartlett and hon Njadu, the three of you.

Hon Bartlett, even if I lose friendship I must follow the Rules.

I'm very sorry my friend.

I will lose a friendship but I must follow the Rules.
Hon delegates, let's proceed to the first order of the day, which is the Consideration of the Report of the Select Committee on Finance 2022 Revised Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals, and I now call on the hon Yunus Carrim, chairperson of the Select Committee on Finance to present the committee report.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 42 Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, once again, I regret to say the information given to you is wrong.
We confirmed with the Chief Whip’s office that Mr Zoyisile Njadu will speak and I will do the declaration.

I'm sorry about that.

I'm not sure why, they were notified by both of us.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I don't know.

Let me check because there are a lot of guides in front of me.

Let me just check it.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - 2022 REVISED AND PROPOSED FISCAL FRAMEWORK, DATED 8 NOVEMBER 2022.
Mr E Z NJADU: Good afternoon hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, hon members.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, the Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the 2022 Revised and Proposed Fiscal Framework dated 08 November 2022.
Hon Deputy Chair, the Select Committee on Finance having considered the revised and proposed fiscal framework referred to it reports as follows: The Minister of Finance Mr Enoch Godongwana tabled the 2022 Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS in Parliament on 26 October 2022, in terms of section 27 of the Public Finance UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 43 Management Act, PFMA, Act 1 of 1999 and section 71 of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, Act 9 of 2009.
The Minister, the Acting Director-General, Mr Momoniat and senior officials from the National Treasury and the SA Revenue Services, Sars briefed a joint sitting of the Committees on Finance and Operations on 27 October 2022.

To the committees received post budget tabling input from the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO and the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC on 01 November 2022.
The committees held public hearings on 02 November 2022 and received a total of six written submissions from Cosatu, Institute for Economic Justice, Public Economy Project, SA Institute of Chartered Accountants, Budget Justice Coalition, and the Healthy Living Alliance, Heala.

National Treasury and Sars responded to the issues raised during the public hearings and engaged with the committee and stakeholders on 04 November 2022.
The Minister of Finance stated that one of the things that National Treasury was trying to do in a difficult political environment, was to manage the trade-offs.

He reminded members UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 44 that over the past few years more money was given to the state-owned enterprises and grants.

He said that this undermined spending on baseline departments and frontline services.
The Minister said that standing from Budget 2022, this MTBPS necessarily has been trying to grapple with these trade-offs.

That is why he has been able to give more money for teachers and the police.

He said that, while National Treasury was trying to address this issue, it remained a formidable challenge.
He said that, the SOEs which had a strategic importance in the economy presented a moral hazard as they made it difficult for the National Treasury to simply walk away from them in the current environment.

However, the National Treasury is prioritising the resources, and beginning to put more money in infrastructure and social services such as education and the police.
The Minister said that, were it not for the extensions of the Social Relief of Distress Grant implemented by government during the period of COVID-19, National Treasury would have put more resources into infrastructure and social services.

The extension of the grant was imposing another trade-off.
For example, government intended to employ 30 000 police officers, but had to reduce UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 45 that number to 15 000 new police officers in the next financial year.

The Minister emphasises that the government had not reduced spending on social services.

They wanted members to understand that our fiscal strategy in terms of ... [Inaudible] ... infrastructure and social services.
Chairperson, that is the balancing act that National Treasury was trying to achieve.
Further the Deputy Chairperson, in terms of the recommendations observations from the committee, is that the committee notes the concern that some stakeholders that the 2022 MTBPS continues with the austerity started in the 2022 Budget, while the National Treasury vehemently rejects this view on the basis that, there are no budget reductions over the medium term, and that there was additional spending allocated and government debt levels remain high.
The committee recommends that the National Treasury consider some of the arguments raised by the stakeholders.

The committee understands the arguments by stakeholders on the ... [Inaudible] ...to be informed by the fiscal consolidation path of government of the last few years as headlined by spending cuts or spending increase.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 46 Hon Deputy Chairperson, the National Treasury should report to the committee the extent to which the previously adopted concurrency fiscal policy and fiscal consolidation have been affected in stabilising the fiscal framework.

The committee welcomes that the 2023-24 financial year is the final year of the fiscal consolidation announced in the 2022 MTBS.
We also welcome the 2022 MTBPS does not include any new budget reductions.

The committee notes the submissions made by the stakeholders regarding increasing the social grants in the ... [Inaudible] ... to them.

The committee also welcomes the extension of the grant by another year given the consequences of COVID-19, the July 2022 social unrest, the KwaZulu-Natal floods and the interest poverty, inequality and job losses.

The unemployment and poor need to be cushioned more.
The committee reinstated its previous position that the National Treasury and government should seriously consider a Basic Income Grant.

On the Basic Income Grant, the committee’s views on this are not unrealistic or populist.

The committee is accurately aware of the severe constraints on the budget, reduced fiscal space and the huge cost that the state will have to bear.
But, given the conditions in the country at UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 47 present and the limited growth rates and job creation, not to provide a Basic Income Grant could lead to social consequences that will cost the state and society more, far more.

The Basic Income Grant can be introduced in an incremental measure while it takes into account the limited fiscal space.

The necessary trade-offs will have to be made.


The tax proposals by the various stakeholders in the hearing of the funding of the Basic Income Grant also need to be considered.

Chairperson, the committee notes that the social wage, which is the combined spending on health, education, housing, social protection, employment programme and local amenities protected in the review, revised and proposed fiscal framework.
The committee welcomes that over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF an allocation of R3,56 trillion or 59,2% of the considered noninterest spending is dedicated to the social wage, with the aim of alleviating poverty and reducing unemployment and inequality.

The committee welcomes the slight improvement to the country’s fiscal framework, despite the challenging economic environment, internationally and domestically.

Gross government debt is now expected to stabilise at 71,4%.
The UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 48 committee further welcomes that gross tax revenues have been revised up to by 85,5 billion in 2020-23, which is attributed to better than expected revenue collection in the final quarter of 2021-22.
The upward revision to near term tax base growth projections and strong Corporate Income Tax collections, the committee however notes that, this revision may be based on revenue forecasts that are rather optimistic as argued by some stakeholders in the in the hearings.
The committee notes the explanations from the National Treasury that the strong revenue collections were due to Corporate Income Tax, CIT collection Chairperson, the committee is concerned that there appears to be lack of understanding of the future of the Gauteng and e- tolls, while the public seems to believe that the e-tolls have been scrapped.

Clarification was provided that, a new funding model was being proposed to fund the e-tolls.
The committee requires the Minister of Finance to provide a written response on this after adoption of this report.

The Committee recommends as it has in its previous reports that, the Public Procurement Bill be tabled in Parliament for UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 49 processing.
The committee believes that the delays in tabling and processing this Bill, compromises transformation and localisation procurement of locally produced goods, in compliance with section 217 of the Constitution.

The committee believes that Black Economic Empowerment, youth, women and people living with disabilities should be given preference when procuring.

Participants raised severe issues with regards to the risk of unresolved Wage Bill on the fiscal framework.
The committee notes that while the Wage Bill has an impact on the fiscal framework, this matter will be referred to the Appropriations Committee for further consideration.

Lastly Chairperson, the committee thanks all those who participated in this process.

Having considered the 2022 Revised and Proposed Fiscal Framework, the Select Committee on Finance adopts it.

The DA, EFF and FF Plus reserved their positions.

So, I ask for the report to be considered.

Thank you very much Deputy Chair.


Declaration(s) of vote: Afrikaans: Mnr J J LONDT: Agb Adjunkvoorsitter ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 50 English: ... the DA has made it clear that it does not support bailouts to failing state-owned enterprises.

Afrikaans: Dit is die man hier voor u. Ek gaan voor begin.

English: The DA has made it clear that it does not support bailouts to failing state-owned enterprises.
To make this already untenable situation worse, we are bailing out the SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, due to the failed e-tolls project that the DA warned about from the start.

But hon Deputy Chair, wait, there’s more.

The end solution is still not clear as the Gauteng provincial government has been told to come up with a large sum of money and work out a future funding model.
So the truth is that there is still no solution to e-tolls, if only this government had listened to the alternative solutions we put forward in the first place.

The debt swop for Eskom is another bailout by subversion with no quantum revealed, no conditions disclosed and no visible progress on splitting Eskom into three parts.
The cleaning up of the Eskom balance sheet at the expense of the many other UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 51 demands on taxpayers’ money is a shocking absolution for one of the primary vehicles of state capture.

But hon Deputy Chair, wait there’s more.

The Minister was still walking back down the red carpet after his speech when Eskom’s latest borrowing spree was announced with the World Bank advancing an eye-watering amount to fund green energy projects.
The report on the fiscal framework also includes a worrying remark about the SA Reserve Bank and the recent correction in the interest rates to pre-Covid levels.

This is in line with the international trends and in protection of the currency as is the mandate of the Reserve Bank.

The chair of the Standing Committee on Finance tried to lead the joint committees down a path of the monetary policy which is not our mandate and is specifically separate from the fiscal policy.
The absence of any signal that greater funding will be committed to the core face of service delivery, which is provincial and local government levels, leaves us without an option but to reject this report and the fiscal framework behind it.

Afrikaans: Baie dankie, agb Adjunkvoorsitter.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 52 Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, basically, we don’t agree with unconditional bailouts.

No way in the discussion that we had!


The gentleman wasn’t there.

Remember, he wasn’t there.

Did we say that?

In fact, we said the opposite.

I don’t know where he read the report, or is it the researcher who read the report?

But whatever it is, it is there in a crystal clear language that we do not support unconditional bailouts, but we welcome the bailouts that have been issued so far.

We have once again ... and the Treasury has shown that it is taking the committee seriously.
Actually, it now has conditions set for it.

In fact, the report goes even further saying something to the effect that when it comes to Eskom, we also want to see what the conditions attached are, who is going to monitor it, how and timelines.

We did spell out all that in the report because it reports all what was done.

Secondly, it is not fair to raise an issue about the Standing Committee on Finance’s chairperson, Mr Joe Maswanganyi.

He is not here to answer for himself.


Mercifully, the rest of us are here.

He actually raised it as an issue that derives from discussions on the Standing Committee on Finance side.

In fact, it was in the previous term when I was there.

The Reserve Bank is not above accountability to the public and to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 53 Parliament, and through Parliament to the public.
In fact, the report says that the committee, all of us, recognise the constitutional and legislative mandate of the SA Reserve Bank.

It is within that context where we asked, what is wrong with the Reserve Bank Governor appearing before the Standing Committee on Finance to explain why the repo rates have increased to the extent they have, and that have they taken sufficient account of the cost of living and crisis that are emerging because of that?

That’s all!

That is our constitutional mandate.


You can’t have your cake and eat it and say that Parliament doesn’t hold the institutions to account and then when we seek to do it, you say that we should not be doing it.

In fact, we are doing it within the Constitution.

No way in this discussion, in the committee or in the report does it say we are going to question the monetary policy.

That is a matter that the ANC discussed at its last conference.
It is coming up in December and we brought it to Parliament.

That’s not the issue here.

Here it is a separate issue, a particular challenge we have.

So, for now no one is questioning the legitimacy of the current role of the Reserve Bank.

It’s not true that there has been no progress, Chairperson.

I don’t know which planet the gentleman is living in.

There has UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 54 been progress on splitting Eskom.
But it is a huge monumental, really!

It is a nil ... what’s an English word used?

I don’t know what the word is, but it is a nil, whatever is it ... but David you will know it.

It is a word referring to a huge, huge thing to break it down into three - transmission, generation and maintenance.

It’s going to be very, very difficult.

Now we have a new board which looks like it’s a shiny example of what can be done there.

We brought those skills together.


And we have a reasonable good management committee led by the current CEO, but they are doing what they are doing.

Guess, they said to Sanral and now they are complaining that there is no alternative.

What is the alternative?

It was not only themselves who raised it, but it was the Congress of SA Trade Unions, Cosatu, SA Communist Party, SACP, nongovernment organisations, NGOs, and civil societies, and none of them support the DA.

Thank you very much.


IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

AGAINST: Western Cape.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 55 Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS - EXPENDITURE AND PERFORMANCE OF THE EARLY CHILDHOOD DEVELOPMENT GRANT AS AT THE END OF THE FOURTH QUARTER OF THE 2021-22 FINANCIAL YEAR, DATED 12 OCTOBER 2022.

Ms D G MAHLANGU: Thank you ...

[Interjections.]

Afrikaans: Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP (Me S E Lucas): My ouma sê jy moet hoor maar jy moet nie luister nie.

So ...

[Onhoorbaar.]

Ms D G MAHLANGU: Baie dankie.


English: Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Chairperson of the NCOP in absentia and the Chief Whip, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, hon members, permanent and special delegates, and fellow South Africans ... Afrikaans: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 56 ... goeie middag.

Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP (Me S E Lucas): Goeie middag.
English: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I am honoured to table before this House, a report on the early childhood development, ECD, grant.

The committee adopted the report, while the DA, FFPlus and the EFF abstained.

Based on the persistent poor performance of the grant, the committee resolved to conduct an in-year monitoring on the expenditure and service delivery of this grant on 07 September 2022.
Of note, is that this was the last period for the grant to be managed by the Department of Social Development, before the shift to the Department of Basic Education was finalised.

Both the Department of Social Development and National Treasury were invited to report on the fourth quarter of the 2021-22 financial year.
Having dealt with the process, the committee has made the following observations: the committee believes that intensifying investment of resources at the early stages of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 57 education is crucial for the country.
Therefore, it urges the Department of Basic Education to continue efforts to increase the number of poor children accessing subsidised ECD services through centre and noncentre-based programmes and beneficiary verification.
The Department of Basic Education and provinces such as the Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape and North West should fast-track the implementation of all remedial actions, including addressing delays in the procurement processes; late signing of service level agreements, SLAs, and late payment of implementing agencies; to improve the Grant expenditure and performance.
The committee is of the view that the persistent under expenditure and returning of funds back to the National Research Foundation, NRF, due to failure to spend is unacceptable and continues to undermine service delivery.

The committee urges both the Department of Basic Education, DBE, and the Department of Social Development, DSD, to continue working together to ensure the smooth transition of the ECD programme from the DSD to the DBE.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 58 The committee further recommends that, before the handover process is finalised, the DSD should compile a detailed and thorough report to further assist the DBE to address some of the pertinent challenges, including around infrastructure delivery and contract management.
The committee urges the Department of Basic Education to continue the implementation of strict measures and mitigation systems, put in place by the Department of Social Development for all provinces, to ensure that monies are consistently paid to the correct beneficiaries in line with the grant framework, the Public Finance Management Act and Treasury regulations; and to ensure that appropriate consequence management is implemented for provinces failing to spend according to the projected budgets.
The committee urges the Department of Basic Education to collaborate and co-ordinate the policy development processes with other government departments where necessary, especially those that form part of the value chain in the ECD programme.

The committee believes that there is a need for a government and society-wide effort to ensure that this matter receives the necessary support from all stakeholders.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 59 Whilst the committee urges National Treasury to ensure that rollover requests are always considered according to the conditions set out in section 6(4) of the Treasury regulations and section 30 and 31 of the Public Finance Management Act, the committee believes that the alignment of plans with approved budgets and monitoring and evaluation systems need to be improved in all three spheres of government.
Both Parliament and provincial legislatures, through sector committees, should continue to intensify efforts to scrutinise departmental plans during Budget Vote processes, to ensure that alignment of plans and better service delivery are achieved at all levels of government.
In conclusion, I wish to thank all committee members, political heads of the department as they presented themselves before the committee as asked, provincial committee members, committee stakeholders, media and the general public as well as the committee support staff.

The committee recommends to the House that the report be adopted.

Thank you very much.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 60 Voting [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS – EXPENDITURE AND PERFORMANCE OF THE INFORMAL SETTLEMENTS UPGRADING PARTNERSHIP GRANT FOR GRANT FOR PROVINCES IN THE FIRST QUARTER OF THE 2022-23 FINANCIAL YEAR, DATED 12 OCTOBER 2022 IsiNdebele: Kkz D G MAHLANGU: Sihlalo ohloniphekileko, ngithokoza khulu.

Ngilotjhisa unGqongqotjhe neSekela lakhe, namaLunga ahloniphekile, nesitjhaba sekhethu seSewula Afrika.
Sekela Sihlalo ohloniphekileko, ngizizwa ngihloniphekile ukobana unginikele ithuba lokujama phambi kweNdlu ngizonikela umbiko ngeHlelo lokuThuthukisa iiNdawo zokuHlala.

Sekela Sihlalo, ikomiti iyeyavumelana ngalombiko, nanyana i- DA, ne-FFPlus kunye ne-EFF bangazange bazibandakanye.
English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 61 Of note is that since the grant was introduced as a standalone, the committee had not had an opportunity to assess its implementation and expenditure.

Therefore, resolved to conduct a hearing on the performance of this grant on 10 August 2022.

The Department of Human Settlements and the National Treasury were thus invited to report on the first quarter of the 2022-23 financial year.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, in addition, all nine provincial Departments of Human Settlements were invited to make inputs.

The committee has made some observations through the process.

The Department of Human Settlements working together with the National Treasury should strive to tighten the framework of the Informal Settlement Upgrading Partnership Grant for provinces before the beginning of the 2023-24 financial year.
This will ensure more thorough planning, monitoring and reporting by provinces, improving the level of performance and correctly assess the risk of under expenditure to ensure that early interventions are taken to prevent wastage.

The Department of Human Settlements should consider reviewing their business plans approval process and urgently address the reported delays.

Approval of business plans should not occur in the middle of the financial year.
Clear time lines for the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 62 approval process should be adopted by the sector and they should be carefully considered in a transparent manner.

These timeframes should be included in the business frames and adhered to.
Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon members, the committee implores the Department of Human Settlements together with the provincial Departments of Human Settlements and municipalities to urgently take steps to intensify efforts to ensure alignment of Municipal Integrated Development Plans with those of provincial and national government.

The committee is of the view that this has been a problem for the past years and therefore, urgent steps are required to address this matter.
The Department of Human Settlements should perform rigorous programme and contract management to minimise the risk of underperformance.

Provincial departments working together with the Department of Human Settlements should continuously improve programme design and hold implementing agencies and contractors accountable for poor performance, because that is the weak point that we identified.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 63 The Department of Human Settlements should continue to hold accountable provinces that transfer funds to implementing agencies.

The department should also demand financial accountability and value for money for implementing and contracted agencies.

This will eliminate early financial leakage, fiscal dumping and corrupt elements.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, the provincial Departments of Human Settlements should comply with section 16 of the Division of Revenue Act, which require provinces to provide agreements it has, with other organs of state and a schedule of payments to the National Treasury, the transferring officer and the Provincial Treasuries.
These agreements should be submitted to these institutions as a matter of urgency and at the latest within two weeks after the adoption of this report by the National Council of Provinces, if it is to be adopted today.

Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon members, the planned engagements through social impact required by the grant framework should be prioritised to reduce instances of community protests that often stall projects.
Such public protests do not only interfere with government planned projects, but also result in the loss of people’s lives and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 64 vandalism to the existing infrastructure which negatively affect service delivery.
Therefore, the committee implores all community leaders across political organisations, social partners, private sector and government institutions to find a way to address this and its negative impact to the poor and vulnerable communities.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, the committee implores National Treasury to expedite the process of reviewing all conditional grant frameworks to address the Minister of Human Settlements concerns around the grant framework being too constrained and not supporting the department to improve performance.

Noting that provinces seem to lack the capacity or will to spent the grant effectively.
The committee recommend that the National Treasury should consider the possibility of transferring the grant funds to local municipalities after an accreditation process and upon presentation of business plan similar to the way the Municipal Infrastructure Grant is administered.
The committee urges National Treasury, the Department of Human Settlements and the provincial departments tasked with UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 65 spending these allocated funds to remember that these are not mere numbers and targets, but these are in fact the lives of the people that they are dealing with.
Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon members, the people who rely the most on government support for their quality of life do not have a choice, but are focusing or relying on government only.

As such, the committee urges all bureaucrats to seek ways in which to ensure that the funds are spent promptly and in the most cost-effective manner in ways designed to enhance the lives of the people living in informal settlements.

Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson.

IsiNdebele: Ngithokoze khulu.


Ngithokoza nabantu esisebenzisana nabo, nabasebenzi abasisekelo, nekomiti, namaLunga woke akhona walekomiti, amaLunga weeMfunda.

Ngiyathokoza, Sekela Sihlalo.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS EXPENDITURE AND PERFORMANCE OF THE LAND CARE PROGRAMME GRANT AS AT THE END OF THE FOURTH QUARTER OF THE 2021-22 FINANCIAL YEAR AND THE FIRST QUARTER OF THE 2022-23 FINANCIAL YEAR, DATED 12 OCTOBER 2022 UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 66 Sepedi: Moh D G MAHLANGU: Motlatṧamodulasetulo, ke dumediṧa Modulasetulo wa Lekgotla la Bosetšhaba la Diprofense, ke dumediṧe le maloko kamoka a diprofense, baetapele ba rena, Ditona le Batlatṧatona bao ba lego gona ka mo gare ga Ntlo ye, ke dumediṧe le batho ba geṧo ba Afrika Borwa.
English: Hon Chairperson, it’s an honour again to be given this opportunity to present the report on Land Care Programme Grant.

The committee adopted the report, while the DA, the FF Plus and EFF abstained.

Due to persistent underspending, the committee resolved to conduct a hearing on the expenditure and service delivery of this grant on 31 August 2022.
Four provincial departments of agriculture, land reform and rural development, that is Gauteng, Limpopo, Northern Cape and North West, were invited to report on the fourth quarter of the 2021-22 financial year and the first quarter of 2022-23 financial year.

The Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and National Treasury were thus invited to make inputs during this process.
The committee has made the following observations: Gauteng, Limpopo and Northern Cape UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 67 should take specific steps to improve expenditure as well as planning processes for the grant to be received timeously.

They need to ensure that the grant is spend according to plans as well as the requirements of the grant framework.
The committee is of the view that National Treasury should intensify its various monitoring mechanisms such as meeting with the sector on a quarterly basis.

The Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development should expedite the initiative of convening a workshop with all provinces, focussing on addressing capacity challenges in provinces as well as allocations of officials from the national sphere to help improve performance and produce realistic business plans on time.
The transferring officers should ensure that consequence management is implemented as provided for in the Division of Revenue Act and that other public finance management prescripts are followed where necessary to enforce compliance.

However, the committee is of the view that this should be done strictly in terms of section 216, subsection 3 of the Constitution of the Republic to ensure that government acts in the interest of poor South Africans in service delivery.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 68 The committee further recommends that the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development should intensify interventions aimed at assisting provinces such as Northern Cape, North West and Gauteng where zero performance had been reported due to nonsubmission of business plans.
Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon members of this august House, we are as a committee recommending that the National treasury should ensure that the rolling over of funds is not encouraged due to its negative impact on service delivery.

However, when it does happen, such as in the case of North West’s underexpenditure due to chemical shortages, the approval process should be done in accordance with section 6.4.1 of the Treasury Regulations, and section 30 subsection 2(g) of the Public Finance Management Act.
The National Treasury and the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and its provincial counterparts should ensure that the Land Care Grant is always prioritised and where non-performance persist, consideration should be given to devolving the grant to municipal level or to redirecting funds away from nonperforming provinces to those who are proactive in their planning.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 69 In conclusion, I am once more taking this opportunity to thank the Minister for availing herself when she was requested to come with her team and the support staff, the committee members of the appropriations, the stakeholders of the appropriations and the appropriations, the media and all the participants.

Thank you very much.

Sepedi: Ke a leboga.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.


In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West and Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS - EXPENDITURE AND PERFORMANCE OF THE LEARNERS WITH PROFOUND INTELLECTUAL DISABILITIES AND MATHS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 70 GRANTS AS AT THE END OF THE FOURTH QUARTER OF THE 2021-22 FINANCIAL YEAR AND THE FIRST QUARTER OF THE 2022-23 FINANCIAL YEAR, DATED 12 OCTOBER 2022 Ms D G MAHLANGU: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.
Let me greet all the members present on the platform and in the House and all protocol observed, avuxeni [good afternoon].

Hon Deputy Chairperson, the opportunities once more appreciated and welcomed for me to be able to present, on behalf of Appropriations Committee, the Report on the Learners with Profound Intellectual Disabilities and Maths, Science and Technology Grant.

The committee adopted the report while the Democratic Alliance, the Freedom Front Plus and the Economic Freedom Fighters abstained.
Due to persistent underspending of both grants the committee resolved to conduct a hearing on the expenditure and service delivery of these grants on 24 August 2022.

Five provincial departments of education which are: Eastern Cape, Free State, Limpopo, Mpumalanga and Western Cape were invited to report on these grants as at the end of the fourth quarter of the 2021- 22 financial year, and the first quarter of the 2022-23 financial year.
The Department of Basic Education together with the National Treasury were also invited to make inputs.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 71 The following are the observations made by the committee: the provincial education departments of the Free State, Eastern Cape and Limpopo should expedite the filling of funded vacancies as they may continue to impact negatively on service delivery programmes.
The committee is of the view that this needs urgent action from the sector as part of the interventions to tackle the rising unemployment post coronavirus disease 2019, Covid-19.

This should include steps to address the reported high turnover of care givers and the itinerant team members who resigned in the Free State Department of Education.
The Department of Basic Education together with its provincial counterparts should take steps to urgently address all the issues that led to the nonachievement of quarterly targets as articulated in the approved departmental plans within 60 days.

This include the procurement of storage containers, assistive devices and thermometers and training for care givers, teachers, therapists and officials.
The Department of Basic Education and its provincial counterparts should take steps to improve quarterly expenditure depending on the grant scheduled for both the Learners with Profound Intellectual Disabilities Grant and the Math, Science And Technology Grant, whilst achieving value for UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 72 money to avoid an expenditure spike in the fourth quarter of the financial year as well as any risk of fiscal dumping or wastage of government resources.
The committee encourages all provinces and other government entities to put in place mechanisms to ensure that invoices are received from contractors well in advance or in time.

Furthermore, they should ensure that payments are processed within the prescribed 30-day period as required by section 38(1)(f) of the Public Finance Management Act of 1999, to avoid underexpenditure and noncompliance.
Hon Deputy Chairperson and members, the Department of Basic Education together with its provincial counterparts should ensure that specific steps are taken to reach more beneficiaries with the Learners with Profound Intellectual Disabilities Grant depending on the availability of resources as the need is still great.
Gauteng and Limpopo should both take steps to address the issue of poor reporting on performance progress with regards to the implementation of maths, science and technology grant, given that they were not able to report on all of their performance indicators for the period under review.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 73 Hon Deputy Chairperson and members, this should be done within 60 days - 60 days - after the adoption of this report by the House and it will be followed up.

The committee views poor reporting in a very serious light as it impacts negatively on oversight activities.
The Department of Basic Education should continue to strengthen performance verification and monitoring of mitigation measures and ensure regular engagement at districts, regional and executive level.

This time I’m referring to the members of the executive council, MECs, and the accounting officers to identify challenges and share information across the sector.

This should assist the sector to improve collaborative planning and smooth budget processes.
When we work together we will be able to reach the target.

The committee is of the view that National Treasury should continue to intensify its efforts to conduct quarterly provincial budget visits with a view to assist the sector to address spending challenges and ensure better management of conditional grants.

Conditional grants have conditions attached to them.

The committee wishes to stress that the funds allocated are clearly desperately needed by the intended beneficiaries.
It’s not, by the way, a luxury, and that the responsible department should always have the interests of these beneficiaries foremost in their priorities as they UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 74 perform their daily tasks.

Thank you very much hon members and hon Deputy Chairperson ... Sepedi: ... go mpha sebaka le go mpha le tsebe.

Ke leboga ka boikokobetṧo.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.


In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West and Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND JUSTICE — INTERIM CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE PROTECTION REGULATIONS IN TERMS OF SECTION 27 OF THE CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE PROTECTION ACT, 2019 (ACT NO.
8 OF 2019), DATED 2 NOVEMBER 2022 UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 75 Ms S SHAIKH: Deputy Chairperson, greetings to all members, the Minister of Police, the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs and all members on the virtual platform and those that are physically here.

Deputy Chairperson, the Critical Infrastructure Act 2019 was assented to by the President on 22 November 2019.
As per section 27 of the Act, the Minister of Police must table any proposed regulations in Parliament for scrutiny before promulgation.

Section 7 of the Critical Infrastructure Protection Act deals with the functions of the Critical Infrastructure Council.

In order for the council to be able to perform their functions immediately, it was deemed necessary to split sections of the regulations pertaining to the functioning of the critical structure from the main set of regulations.
The Minister has approved the draft regulations and they were published for public comment which have been incorporated in the version that has been submitted to Parliament for scrutiny.

The draft regulations deal with the following 14 aspects related mainly to the functions and procedures to be followed by the Critical Infrastructure Council.
Regulation 1 relates to definitions and includes key definitions such as the ‘Critical Infrastructure Protection UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 76 Regulator’ and ‘application’.

Regulation 2 provides for the establishment and functions of the Critical Infrastructure Council.

The council is established in terms of section 4(1) of the Act, and must advise Minister in the exercise of his or her functions in terms of the Act.
Regulations 3 and 4 deal with ordinary and special meetings of the Critical Infrastructure Council respectively.

Regulation 5 — resolutions of the Critical Infrastructure Council in respect of applications for declaration of infrastructure as critical infrastructure.
This regulation provides that the council must adopt a resolution whether or not it intends to recommend declarations of such infrastructure as critical infrastructure, as well as recommend on appropriate risk category for the infrastructure in question.

Further, the council must, within 14 days of the meeting of the council, notify the applicant of the intended recommendation of the council.
Regulation 6 deals with resolutions of the Critical Infrastructure Council to dispense with publication and it provides for instances where an applicant request the council for approval to depart from the procedure of the publication of the notice referred to in section 17(4)(a) of the Act.
The council must consider the request to determine whether the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 77 application is for a good cause as contemplated in section 17(5) of the Act and adopt the resolution whether or not to approve such a request.

Regulation 7 deals with resolutions of the Critical Infrastructure Council in respect of policies, protocols and standards.
Regulation 8 deals with the assignment of functions by the Minister and provide for instances where the Minister has assigned any function on the council in terms of section 7(1)(c) of the Act, and in such instances the chairperson may, within 14 days of receipt of the assignment, call a special meeting of the council if he or she is of the opinion that the matter is urgent.
Regulation 9 and 10 deal with ad hoc committees and standing committees respectively to assist the council in the performance of its function.
Regulation 11 establishment of the Critical Infrastructure Protection Regulator empowers the National Commissioner to establish a Critical Infrastructure Protection Regulator as a component within the structures of the South African Police Service to ensure the maintenance of the administrative systems and procedures necessary for the implementation and enforcement of the Act.
The National Commissioner must appoint a suitably qualified and experienced UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 78 police official of a rank not less than that of level 14 as the head of the regulator.

Regulation 12 provides for the functions of the Critical Infrastructure Protection Regulator and regulation 13 deals with the manner of service of notice.

Regulation 14 finally deals with the commencement of the regulations.
Hon Deputy Chair, the committee was of the view that the protection of critical infrastructure has intensified internationally largely due to the increasing threats of terrorism.

Preventative security measures have become a major focus area of critical infrastructure protection.

Countries like Singapore have recently introduced legislations specifically aimed at proactive steps to protect their critical infrastructure against terrorism.
For this reason, the committee is of the view that the implementation of the regulations would be of utmost importance in protecting South Africa’s critical infrastructure.
Hon Deputy Chair, the Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the interim Critical Infrastructure Protection Regulation in terms of section 27 of the Critical Infrastructure Protection Act 2019 recommends that the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 79 National Council of Provinces approves the interim regulations.

I thank you.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.


[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND JUSTICE - INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE SUPPRESSION AND PUNISHMENT OF THE CRIME OF APARTHEID: ADOPTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE UNITED NATIONS ON 30 NOVEMBER 1973, TABLED IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF THE CONSTITUTION, 1996, AND THE EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM TO THE INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE SUPPRESSION AND PUNISHMENT OF THE CRIME OF APARTHEID: ADOPTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE UNITED NATIONS ON 30 NOVEMBER 1973, DATED 12 OCTOBER 2022 Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson and greetings once again.
The convention on the suppression and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 80 punishment of the crime of party has its roots in the opposition by the United Nations to the discriminatory racial policies of the South African apartheid government.
Notably, the convention declares apartheid as a crime against humanity; that inhuman acts resulting from the policies and practices of apartheid and similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination are international crimes, constituting a serious threat to international peace and security.

The convention defines the crime of apartheid as including similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practiced in Southern Africa.
This covers inhuman acts committed for the purposes of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them.

The convention was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 30 November 1973 and came into force on 18 July 1976.

To date, 110 State parties have ratified or acceded to the convention.

Cabinet approved a session to the convention on 25 February 2021.
In terms of section 2 of the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 81 Constitution, convention now requires the approval of both Houses of Parliament.

The accession to the convention is in accordance with South Africa’s international obligations and other international instruments, to which it is already a party, such as the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.
It is aligned to the Medium Term Strategic Framework: Priority 6 - social cohesion and safe communities; and Priority 7 - a better Africa and world.

Apartheid is a species of a crime against humanity, under both Custom International Law and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal court.

The endorsement in a wider context, in instruments adopted before and after the fall of apartheid, proves that the apartheid convention is intended to apply in situations other than South Africa.
The agreement set out in the articles is based on the conviction of state parties that an International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid would make it possible to make more effective measures at the international and national levels, of the view to the suppression and punishment of the crime of apartheid.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 82 Article 2 defines acts of practices constituting the crime of apartheid as: The denial of the right to life and liberty of the person or a racial group through murder, torture, imprisonment, amongst others; deliberate imposition of living conditions calculated to cause destruction of a racial group; preventing a racial group from participating in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country; and deliberate measures to limit the exercise of basic human rights by a racial group.
The convention supports the implementation of the rights contained in the Constitution, as it seeks to uphold and enforce the rights to human dignity, freedom and equality.

According to the Office of the Chief State Law Adviser’s legal opinions, the convention is also in line with our domestic law in international obligations.

the accession will not have financial implications as the UN treaty bodies are implemented and monitored through the existing state membership contributions.
The committee is of the view that, despite the fact that apartheid no longer exists in South Africa, forms of discrimination still occur in countries across the world.

The example of the oppression and subjugation of the Palestinian UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 83 people by the apartheid Israel is but one!

The convention is, therefore, the utmost importance in advancing the rule of law and protecting human rights across the globe.
There is a need to assert, unambiguously, that apartheid is indeed a crime against humanity, and that practices associated with apartheid, racial discrimination and other related intolerance will be punished.

In addition, the need for preventative measures, as well as steps to redress the terrible harms caused by this crime, should be considered.
Hon Chair, the Select Committee on Security and Justice having considered the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, adopted by the General Assembly of the of the United Nations on 30 November 1973, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution and the explanatory memorandum to the convention, recommends that the National Council of Province approves this convention.

I thank you very much.

No declarations.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 84 Voting: [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Report agreed to.

The Report was adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND JUSTICE - INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF ALL PERSONS FROM ENFORCED DISAPPEARANCE, ICPPED, TABLED IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF THE CONSTITUTION, 1996, AND THE EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM TO THE INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF ALL PERSONS FROM ENFORCED DISAPPEARANCE, ICPPED, DATED 12 OCTOBER 2022 Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson and greetings once again.
The Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance is intended to prevent and eradicate the enforced disappearances of persons described on the international law as crimes against humanity.
The convention defines enforced disappearance as the arrest, detention, abduction or any other form of deprivation of liberty, by agents of the state or by persons or groups of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 85 persons, acting with the authorisation support for acquiescence of the state, followed by a refusal to acknowledge the deprivation of liberty or by concealment of the fate or whereabouts of the disappeared person, which place such a person outside the protection of the law.
Enforced disappearance is characterized by four cumulative elements: The deprivation of liberty against the will of the person; involvement of government officials, at least by acquiescence; refusal to acknowledge the deprivation of liberty or concealment of the fate or whereabouts of the disappeared person; and placement of the disappeared person outside the protection of the law.

It is the first universally binding treaty that defines enforced disappearance as a human rights violation.
State action is a critical part of what constitutes enforced disappearance.

There are five key areas in terms of the obligation of state parties: The fight against impunity; investigation and prosecution; prevention and combating of the phenomenon of enforced disappearance; the rights of victims; the rights of children; and the abduction and disappearance from parents who have themselves disappeared.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 86 Article 24(4) states, that each state party shall ensure that in its legal system that victims of enforced disappearance have the right to obtain reparation and prompt, fair and adequate compensation, such as restitution, rehabilitation, satisfaction, including, the restoration of dignity and reputation, and guarantees for nonrepetition.
This article does not impose an obligation on state parties to create a fund compensation.

This article gives victims the right to approach any court to enforce their rights and seek remedies according to the convention.

The convention, in broad terms of its protection and scope, emphasises the protection of victims and the rights of family members of the victims.

It incorporates many criminal aspects which differs from other human rights treaties.
The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court provides for enforces appearance as a person as a crime against humanity.

The Rome Statute is incorporated into our law by virtue of the International Criminal Court Implementation Act.

Thus, the crime of enforced disappearance is part of our law.
The International Criminal Court Act focuses on a systemic and widespread fashion of enforced disappearance, in the context UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 87 of crimes against humanity.

The convention focuses on the occurrence of enforced disappearance, at a lesser scale or isolated individual cases.

There is, thus, a gap in so far as enforced disappearances which happen in isolation and does not meet the threshold of the crime against humanity.
The convention will need to be incorporated into domestic law.

The offense of enforced disappearance is regarded as an extraditable offense for purposes of extradition and mutual legal assistance.
The convention seeks to achieve the following: It obliges state parties to criminalise enforced disappearance and make it a punishable offense; search for disappeared persons, investigate their disappearance and provide victims with access to justice and reparation; guarantee minimum legal standards around the deprivation of liberty, such as maintaining official registers of persons deprived of liberty, with minimum of information; and authorising them to communicate with their family, counsel or any other person of their choice; refuse to extradite a person to another state where there are substantial grounds to believe that the person would be in danger of enforced disappearance; prohibits secret detention; and train law enforcement officials.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 88 The convention was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 20 December 2006 and came into force on 23 December 2010.

To date, 68 state parties have ratified or acceded to the convention.
Hon Chairperson, we come from a very painful history as a nation, which is besieged by many examples of enforced disappearances at the hands of the apartheid state, such as the case of MK Cadre, Nokuthula Simelani, who in September 1983 was abducted by members of the Soweto Security Police.

She was taken to a private farm in Limpopo for interrogation.

She was never seen again.

Four members of the security police have been charged with the murder This is but one example, and the list is endless.
Many families have lost loved ones and are still seeking justice.

The pain that many have lived through during the apartheid era should never be experienced again, by anyone.

As we consider this convention, we do so in remembrance of those who have disappeared at the hands of the apartheid state.

The select committee agreed that this convention was of utmost importance in protecting victims and in advancing the protection of liberty of all persons.
The convention further UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 89 serves to reinforce the rights of victims to access to justice and reparation.
Hon Chair, the Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance, tabled in terms of section 231 subsection 2 of the Constitution and the explanatory memorandum, recommends that the National Council of Province approves the convention I thank you very much.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

Objections noted.

Voting: [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES] Report agreed to.


The Report was adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 90 CROSS BORDER AND TRANSNATIONAL CRIME: WAGING A CONCERTED BATTLE AGAINST CROSS BORDER AND TRANSNATIONAL CRIME (Subject for debate) The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, members of the National Council of Provinces, Deputy Minister here and Ministers on the platform, Members of Executive Council, MECs, members of SA Local Government Association, SALGA, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon, sanibonani.
Chairperson, allow me to start the address by reiterating the point that the country’s law enforcement remain ready and able to enforce and maintain the law within our borders.

Equally, South African Police, together with security apparatus, are also very committed to actively combat crimes which threaten the country’s democratic institution, the economy and the people.
According to the United Nations on drugs and crime South Africa has excellent infrastructure of roads and rail, telecommunication, airports and sea ports for the own illicit gains.

South Africa is also a maritime country with a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 91 coastline of over 2 800km.

These are some of the factors that make this country attractive to the border crime syndicates.
We remain duly committed to our national and international obligations aims of combating lawlessness whether at sea, land or on air.

Cross border crimes, which are defined as serious crimes with a cross border dimensions committed at or along the external border of our country.

These include crimes such as trafficking, moving drugs, people, body parts and weapons across international borders; cybercrimes; financial crimes; international terrorism and environmental crimes.
Human trafficking, extortion of business and individuals, kidnapping, organized robbery and organized violence, smuggling of contrabands including firearms, vehicles, tobacco products, alcohol, minerals, are some of the illicit markets that have been identified within our shores.

We are encouraged that the fight on transnational cross border crimes is not ours as a country alone but with our friends.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 92 In March this year this Ministry attended a Troika meeting hosted in Sandton, Gauteng.

The Ministerial Troika attended by Security Ministers and representatives from Mozambique, Tanzania, Zimbabwe and eSwatini; and those trilateral strategies to counter drug trafficking on the southern route.
It is encouraging to see increasing regional collaborative work and commitment aimed at frustrating and eventually ending the criminal syndicates.

Chairperson, there is no doubt that the issue of cross border crime is complex.

Cross border crime often involves criminal networks that have more than one player allocated in different countries or continent.

It is a fact that many criminal networks engage in multiple or poli-criminal activities.
Syndicates also have very deep pockets and far-reaching networks of patronage including some officers of the law.

Cross border and transnational crimes require collaboration between various criminal groups or networks.

As a response to these often well-organized and sophisticated crimes, it goes without saying that we, too, as law enforcement, must work closer together.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 93 As a country we are improving multiagency collaboration between different departments and agencies operating within and along the borders.

The improvement of regional collaborative between South Africa and neighbouring countries within the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region.
We agree with security experts that we constantly have to improve the quality of intelligence generated and shared to combat illegal activities at the borders.

Fundamentally, we have to deal decisively with corruption internally, which remains the main obstacle towards an effective and efficient border management system in the country.

The promotion of peace and stability in the region is an ongoing process which must always be encouraged.
Together as a country and the region we are cutting off the heads of criminal networks through intelligence, gathering information, analysis and sharing.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 94 The Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, which is known as Hawks, and the SA Police Service, SAPS, continue to study these networks and gather as much intelligence on them and their modus operandi.

This will allow us to always be a step ahead of them.
Regionally, it is through exchanging information of lessons learnt and burs; practices between states that can deal the organized syndicates a heavy blow.

While we are appreciating that we are all sovereign states, some of our legislations, policies and regulations must talk to each other.

This has been one the main resolution during the Ministerial Troika hosted earlier this year with some of my regional counterparts.
Waging a concerted battle against cross border and transnational crime requires all hands on deck.

In this regard, the Southern African Regional Police Chiefs Co-operation Organisation, SARPCCO, continues to register many policing successes.

The primary function of SARPCCO is to enhance regional police co-operation by preventing and combating cross border transnational organised crime in Southern Africa.
SARPCCO has UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 95 16-member countries, namely: Angola, Botswana and the rest of SADC countries.

It is through this regional body that South Africa continues to repatriate stolen vehicles from neighbouring countries such Mozambique, eSwatini, Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe and Malawi.

The smuggling of vehicles out of South Africa is a cross border crime that is being closely monitored and acted on by local authorities.
It is also through SARPCCO-led operations such as Operation Car Back that South Africa has, with the assistance of member countries, retrieved over 130 vehicles in Gauteng and over 40 suspects arrested for the role in the transnational crime during the month of May 2022.

Operation Gijima implemented on 25 July 2022 achieved many successes.
The four-day long collaboration police operation recovered 18 stolen vehicles in Mpumalanga, eight in KwaZulu-Natal, while 10 more vehicles in the Western Cape and 10 suspects were arrested.

[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 96 The North West province saw 13 undocumented persons arrested while the Northern Cape resulted in the ratio of 36 such persons charged with contravention of the Immigration Act.
We are aware that the vehicle smuggling syndicates operate in all nine provinces.

This is also reflected in increased hijacking figures in our crime statistics.

Police have also arrested Mozambicans, Zambians, Malawians, eSwatini as well as Indian and Pakistan nationals for their roles in these specific crimes.

As a way of dismantling this syndicate, police have also seized undisclosed amount of cash as well as firearms and drugs since July 2020.
Hon members, South Africa has the third highest number of cybercrime victims worldwide; costing R2,2 billion annually.

The DPCI and other security role player continue to make inroads in the fight against cybercrime and online scams.

Online scams involve various types of fraud in cyberspace including phishing, credit fraud, identity theft, advanced UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 97 payment fraud, card not presented fraud and crypto currency scams.
Amongst many local successes targeted at cyber financial fraud syndicate in 2021, also the DPCI arrested eight suspected Black Axe group members, online scammers, in South Africa with links to Nigeria, Italy and Ireland.

The Black Axe are recognised as a mafia group in Italy and considered a major security threat worldwide, responsible for most of the world’s cyber financial fraud.

Inroads also continue to be made in combatting illicit mining across all provinces.
Over and above R7 billion cost to the economy.

Illegal mining has a range of negative social and financial impact.

The smuggling of counterfeit goods results in the loss of millions of rands in tax revenue.

To this end, this government injects human resources and funding to fight the illicit mining in all affected provinces.
Most recently, intelligence-led policing operating have been stepped up and necessary resources and specialized units of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 98 the SAPS have also been deployed to keep residents living in affected mining communities safe.

These increased operations have been most notable in communities of West Rand in Gauteng, which is known as an epicentre of mining.
Gauteng police continue to conduct operations that have led to the arrest of undocumented nationals and persons suspected of illegal mining called Zamazamas.

The DPCI is also closing in all role players high up in the illegal mining value chain.

Government is firm on the position that any attack on power stations, fuel and water pipes and other criminal infrastructure are deliberate acts of sabotage that will be brought to book.
Chairperson, recently the police have arrested a king pin of a person that steals the oil on the pipes that move the oil into the Republic of South Africa.

It’s a young boy of 26 years who’s running a huge syndicate of trucks that move oil, dealing, he knows every pipe, what carries petrol, what carries crude and everything.
But police have done very good to arrest him together with his illegal factory where foreign UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 99 nationals are working in that factory in his own home.

So, that’s a success that has just been achieved.

We know that these crimes are being conducted by well-organized syndicates hell-bent of damaging the country’s economy.
The Security Cluster is alive to the fact that the protection of economic infrastructure does require a focussed and coordinated response from us.

We simply won’t sit back and let criminals run parallel government that threatens to plunge the country into darkness or risking our tabs running dry.

Last month we arrested six level 2 and 3 Zamazamas.

We have been dealing with level 1 albertan, those are the diggers.

Now we have moved to level 2 and 3.


Level 2 and 3 are those that take the processed gold and sell it.

We found six of them living in very posh and plush houses, driving 11 cars, amongst them are Bentley, Mercedes and everything; we have arrested six of them.

As we speak now we are chasing level 4; level 4 usually live in Sandton and Sanhurst and then level 5 lives in Dubai.

So, we are moving up to the ladder to deal with these criminals.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 100 On the protection of critical infrastructure, which we now understand that there’s a by-product of cross border crimes, SAPS has gone a step further and established a multidisciplinary economic infrastructure task team known as Economic Infrastructure Task Teams, EITTs.

The task teams are made up of different specialized units, partnerships with private security, government departments as well as business partnership.
We have identified 18 in the country of these districts where these infrastructure syndicates are causing havoc.

So, we’re responding.

We have created five of these specialized teams.

Now, we’ll be creating 18 to be able to respond to these people.

The collaboration is aimed at preventing and combating of economic and critical infrastructure related crimes.

EITT operations are across all nine provinces within identified districts per province.
The focus area of the Economic Infrastructure Task Team includes non-phosphorous metal theft such as copper cable theft.

Within the radar are essential infrastructure-related UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 101 crimes including tampering, damaging or destroying of infrastructure related to energy, transport, water, sanitation and communication.
The question of electricity and loadshedding is egg and chicken because there will be an agreement to say these thieves are not arrested, but during the loadshedding a lot of electricity infrastructure like copper is stolen because it’s dark and they are dead; so, there is that deterban.

But they are not ending there.

In one of the mines in Welkom the Zamazamas went underground and diverted electricity and water to their own operations.
So, we had to create a team there in July 19th to go and protect the infrastructure that goes underground because it is stolen underground by these Zamazamas.

It’s a big economic sabotage that we have as we are responding.

The team also tackles critical infrastructure ...

[Inaudible.]

... such as pipeline fuel, extortion of construction and other economic sites; illegal mining is also a focus area.
In conclusion, we have no choice but to implement tactics and operations that will have meaningful outcomes and ultimately impact of the lives of citizens of our respective countries UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 102 and the world over.

Together as a country and the region we must wage a consistent battle against cross border and transnational crimes.
We should do this by continuing to cut off the heads of these criminal networks through intelligence gathering, information analysis and sharing.

The DPCI and the SA Police Service continue to study these networks and gather as much intelligence of them and their modus operandi.

This will allow us as South African law enforcement to always be a step ahead.

Chairperson, we are also pleased as the police about the level that has been escalated by the prosecution of the courts.
Up to this point ... as I conclude we are pleased that 42 of these people have been sentenced between a year and 26 years, which means the courts and the police and everybody are beginning to take serious this question of sabotage and the stealing of our copper infrastructure.

Thank you very much.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, cross border crime is a vast field.
It’s a symptom of the modern world we live in where financial and cybercrimes become more and more sophisticated, often faster than law enforcement can keep up with.

It can also be problems that are centuries old like UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 103 stock theft and human trafficking, which is a modern form of slavery.

My colleagues who will stand at this podium later, will unpack some of these and the DA position in more detail.
I however, will focus on cybersecurity for now.

House Chairperson, in September 2022 EasyDMARC cyber defence firm’s research found that only 51% of South Africa’s insurance companies are prepared against phishing, spoofing spamming attacks.

The same survey showed that only 18 of the country’s 38 banks using EasyDMARC’s service have put up defence mechanisms that ward off a 100% of phishing attempts.
Kaspersky also have found that during the first four-months of the year ransomware in South Africa has doubled compared to 2021.

For many years now, South Africa has also been among the countries with the top six highest numbers of cybercrime victims in the world.

The government with all the funds and personal information that the departments hold is no exception.
On the contrary, governments’ cybersecurity leaves much to be desired, with the only province investing sensibly in such security currently being the Western Cape.

Recent developments such as the Cyber Crimes Act should be welcomed.

However, as the DA and others warned during the legislative UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 104 process, implementation problems render this progress almost worthless.
The National Cybersecurity Framework was last approved by government more than 10-years ago, and for political reasons, the government still sides with countries like Russia and China against the ratification of the Budapest Convention.

Why does this matter?

Because every day already struggling South African individuals and businesses see thousands if not millions of rands stolen from them at a time.
In many instances, the municipalities and government institutions don’t even notice that they have been hacked or robbed.

And there’s no singular plan to deal with any of this.

Government’s cybersecurity efforts are spread across various government departments, from science and innovation to the State Security Agency, police, defence, justice, communications and digital technologies and the Government Communication and Information System, GCIS.
There is simply no way to assess and hold anyone to account for the cybersecurity framework or the lack thereof.

And it does not get the funding it deserves because the results come from a crime that cannot be seen.

How foolish, given it is a crime that can be felt and often severely.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 105 What we need is a single entity accountable to Parliament, rather than to individual state departments that serve as an umbrella agency to co-ordinate and develop our cyber capabilities and security.

This will require not only government support, but close partnerships with the private sector and our universities.
When our Constitution was adopted in 1996 cyber technology did not play the role it does now in our daily lives and the functioning of businesses and the state.

Yet, cyber threats affect our fundamental rights as set out in the Bill of Rights.

And even the very existence of our constitutional democracy and its critical infrastructure.

The DA will therefore propose a cyber-commissioner as a new Chapter Nine Institution which will be accountable not to Cabinet but to Parliament directly.
The commissioner should be a qualified cybersecurity expert serving one non-renewable term of seven years.

The institution will replace various other entities that are currently funded, but functioning at different levels of efficiency, such as the information regulator, State Information Technology Agency SOC Ltd, SITA, and the cybersecurity hub.
It will also function as an advisory body to the defence force on matters of cyber warfare and assist in the specialized unit within the Hawks with a necessary cyber forensics expertise that it lacks.

Concerns may be raised around the funding of such an institution.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 106 However, the funding of the entities it will be replacing will make up for a large portion of the required budget.
Furthermore, when taking into consideration that cyber threats cost our economy, billions of rands a year, a reasonable investment into such an entity will save the country much more than it can possibly cost.

We propose that such a Chapter Nine Institution should under the authority of the cyber commissioner exist of five departments, technology and innovation, security, communications, financial and critical infrastructure, and information protection.

These departments will look like this.


Technology and innovation to partner with tertiary institutions and will be responsible for training of new experts and the development of South African cyber security technology.

The security department to consist of cyber forensic experts, and in partnership with the private sector, a reservist force should be built up to help during crisis.

The communications department to be responsible for creating public awareness and the cyber hub.
The financial and critical infrastructure department to partner with the private sector providing advice, issue minimum guidelines and standards for cybersecurity, to specific sectors and formulating incentives for businesses and the public for increased cybersecurity.
And finally, the information UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 107 protection department to be responsible for ensuring that information specifically private individuals information in government’s position, such as at home affairs at the master’s office, schools and hospitals will be safeguarded.
It will also take over the interception capabilities of the State Security Agency, which currently already has to apply for a court order in terms of Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-Related Information Act, RICA.

Such an institution will not require thousands of civil servants, but rather a core group of experts in the field who can be retained and can help us build capacity.
It will be directly accountable to Parliament, but it must contribute to our collective security, not compromised.

Chairperson, such a step will take courage to set up and build.

However, we live in a bold and fast moving world which requires leadership and vision that is equally bold.

If we want to make strides in technology, we are going to have plans in place to protect that technology and ourselves against such crimes.
I fear we have not seen much in terms of vision or proposals in this regard from the tired and old perhaps outdated governing party.

The DA has a modern forward thinking UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 108 and liberal alternative government ready to fill this void.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Ms A D MALEKA: Hon House Chairperson, greetings to all; the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Deputy Chairperson, the hon Chief Whip, the Minister of Police, the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, MECs, South African Local Government Association, Salga, and permanent delegates.

Hon members, today we are engaging in an important debate that focuses on the cross border and transnational crime.
The theme of the debate enjoins all of us who wage a concerted battle against cross border and transnational crime.

I will premise my contribution to this debate on a report released recently by the Institute for Security Studies, ISS, which, I believe highlights the nature of organised crime.

Its modus operandi, as well as its impact on the people, the economy and infrastructure.
The recent report which I referred to is focusing on the strategic organised crime risk assessment for South Africa by the Institute for Security Studies, and it paints a very scary picture of organised crime in South Africa and the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region.
The report says organised crime is an existential threat to South Africa’s democratic institutions, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 109 economy and people requires that we should appreciate the dangers of the organised crime.

To do so we need to critically analyse the phenomenon of the organised crime, its manifestation and its modus operandi.
It often lies behind and connect numerous seemingly desperate criminal incidents we see occurring in South Africa every day.

The report further says that the recent mass shootings I taverns across the country or the horrific gang-rapes in the illegal mining communities in the West Rand and continual outbreaks of violence at the taxi ranks shown where owners threatened or at gun point.
The assassination of whistle blowers, police, detectives, gangsters and game rangers – these incidents are not as random or isolated as they may at first appear.

The mention in the report of the statement that organised crime is an existential threat to South Africa’s democratic institutions, economy and people requires that we should appreciate the dangers of organised crime.

To do so, we need to critically analyse the phenomenon of organised crime, its manifestation and its modus operandi.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 110 We should also be mindful that organised crime has its root in the domestic criminal network that intends to stretch their operation across borders and this undermine the statehood of nations.

The kind of criminal activities that have stretched beyond borders rages from illegal mining, wildlife poaching drug trafficking, human trafficking, child trafficking, illicit financial flows and organised crime syndicates, etc.
The critical question which should bother us as we engage in this important debate, it is the ability of the state to cab cross border crime activities.

For our part in South Africa, we have witnessed the growth of illegal mining in our country.

The incidences of mass shootings, the wildlife poaching as in the cases of rhino poaching, the reporting crimes of human trafficking that mostly affected women and children.
What is critical is that some of the criminals involved in some of these crimes are more foreign nationals.

This obviously does not suggest that this act of criminality has nothing to do with the hands of South Africans.

However, to illustrate the point that in order to deal with these crimes, we must appreciate its external link and migration issues that are linked to it.
The matter of the linked migration within the region challenge is a matter that requires its own UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 111 discussion.

Whatever the point should be made that the instability in the region and the weakness of institutions to regulate the movement of goods and the people contributes to the increase of cross border and transnational crimes.

It is also worth mentioning that organised crime stretches beyond our shores.
The criminal network has long been globalised.

What complicates matters for us in South Africa is that the COVID-19 pandemic has forced government to divert its resource allocations to the fight against the pandemic.

This has shifted focus away from critical institutions that are at the forefront of law-enforcement.

House Chairperson, to make reference to the ISS report again, the report identified three categories that best ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

Mr J J LONDT: Hon House Chairperson, I just want to check if the hon member is willing to take the question?

Ms A D MALEKA: No, I am not willing.

... that.

Can I continue?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 112 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Yes, continue, hon Maleka.

Ms A D MALEKA: Thank you, House Chairperson.


... that the report identifies three categories that best describe the kind of criminal activities that can be classified as organised crime that has an external link.

The first one is what is called the selling of the illicit.

These include crimes such as illicit drugs and fire arms, human trafficking, as we said it earlier, fishing and environmental crimes.
The second category of organised crime that has a cross border dimension is what is termed dealing in violence.

These include crimes of extortion, kidnapping and ransom and extortion of organised robbery and violence.

The third category of organised crime includes crime that target critical infrastructure of organized corruption, illegal mining, mass public transport, economic and financial crimes and health sector crime.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 113 It is common course that the categories of the crimes outlined in the report are known to us as they are reported especially in the media.

As a country, we are faced with these kind of crimes on daily basis.

The reality is that it will be difficult to deal with the challenge of cross border and transnational crimes if the socioeconomic conditions of the people in our sister countries are not attended to.
Again the capacity of state institutions in various countries requires collaborative and co-ordinated efforts to address the challenge of cross border and transnational crimes.

As we said many times that these crimes happen in communities and some members of communities may as well have information about such crimes.

It will be critical to strengthen the mobilisation of communities to contribute in the fight against cross border crime and transnational crimes.

Thank you, House Chairperson.


Mr X NQATHA (Eastern Cape): Thank you, hon House Chair, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, fellow hon MECs, hon Members of the House, delegates from all provinces, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon.
Hon Chair, in my 58 years since Vuyisile Mnini and his Comrades were hanged on UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 114 6 November 1964 by the apartheid regime, for fighting for justice and freedom, for the majority of the population.

They were denied their human rights and dignity because of their colour.

Hon Chairperson, I come before you today to salute these giants for their contribution.
We are the descendants of those who were hanged, we are the descendants of those who were imprisoned and killed, we are the descendants of those who fought nine years of persistence, and we are the descendants of those who worked in many parts of the country to build, providing cheap labour, to build the citizens and towns that we see.

So, the damages and oppression caused in our province, the impact is still felt 28 years down the line.
Therefore, any finding model, that fails to appreciate this legacy, is in itself, an injustice.

Hon Chair, befitting tribute that we can pay to Vuyisile Mnini and his Comrades, is to place our country to a broader, economic emancipatory path, as represented in the Freedom Charter, for the benefit of the majority.

It is for us to work hard, to reverse the neoliberal measures that are worsening the escalating costs of living for the majority.
We owe Vuyisile Mnini and others, no less than UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 115 this, for it is a developmental state with a capacity that can be able to fight the cross border crime.

Hon Deputy Chair, last Monday only, we went to Humansdorp to launch our Community Safety Month, under the theme... IsiZulu: Musa ukuthula kusonakala.
English: Loosely translated, “Don’t be quiet when things are going wrong.” This is a call for action, this is a call for active citizenry, for the mobilisation of communities into organs of people’s power.

This does not apply only in our own country, it would apply to the other neighbouring countries.

This will be a spirit in our case of the Freedom Charter that the people shall govern.
Hon Chair, in our interaction with the roleplayers in various stakeholders in Humansdorp, this includes educators and learners, it became very clear, that those who commit these crimes, those who commit all these criminal acts, do not fall from the trees, they come from households.

This applies in our country and the other neighbouring countries as well.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 116 Therefore, it is quite important that we do this mobilisation and make this call that... IsiZulu: Musa ukuthula kusonakala.

English: The people cannot be passing a fight against crime, and the people cannot wait for some service delivery to address these issues.

They must act and participate, working together with the police and all law enforcement agencies.
Hon Chair, cross border crimes requires that, all law enforcement agencies work together, particularly the justice cluster.

We have seen the benefit of this as a province, given the levels of stock theft in other parts of the province, which resulted in us establishing a special court in Ndiki, resulting in the reduction of stock theft, leading to successful convictions.

Therefore, it is important that there is this collaboration.
We must work together and ensure that we work hard to root out all corrupt elements in the justice cluster, and to strengthen accountability mechanisms.

Hon Chair, we want to argue that, for the renewal project to succeed and to fight against crime, it is quite critical to fight against corruption and to fight UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 117 against crime.
But we would argue that equally, it is important that we change the structure of the economy, so that the structure is able to create jobs, so that we are able to build the capacity of the state to fight against crime.

To conclude, hon Chair, the fight against cross border crimes must be deeply linked with the transforming structure of the economy, for the benefit of the majority.
Hon Deputy Chair, it is our firm view that, under the conditions of crime, poverty and inequality, any sense of stability, peace and security, is a false sense of security, for a ticking time bomb is underway.

Therefore, in the name of Comrade Vuyisile Mnini and his colleagues, we call for these measures to be taken as a tribute to them, as an honour to the lives and the contribution they have made.

Thanks, hon Chair.

Ms M DLAMINI: Thank you so much, Chairperson.


Chairperson, as per usual, the ANC government has showed lack of capacity in dealing with transnational organised crime which stands as a threat to our people, businesses, state institutions as well as the economy.

Instead, the Ruling Party has adopted a tendency, which is apparent in many countries in Europe and America, of blaming foreign nationals for all crime related problems faced in this country.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 118 As the only political party on the continent, that has committed itself to the building of African Unity, the EFF has since its inception, remained mindful of the realities that face the African continent and its people, and as such, we reaffirm the principle contained in our founding manifesto which clearly states that, we advocate for the ultimate integration of the African continent through the erosion and eventual elimination of unnecessary borders.
The EFF is therefore, mindful of the fact that transnational crime is a symptom of a far deeper structural problems that exists in this country, such as corruption and the structure of many African countries’ governments and economies, which provides an ideal environment for transnational syndicates to emerge, and that once transnational crime is present in a country, it contributes to the destruction of the country’s infrastructure, government, and economy, as well as the safety of its residents.
This has also led to an increase in organized crime, such as the smuggling of commercial explosives between South Africa and Zimbabwe, which are often used in violent crime such as cash-in-transit robberies and ATB blasts, and in illegal mining operations in South Africa.
Of course, there are also UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 119 exists those transnational crimes that are deliberately ignored, which is the illicit financial flow and transfer mispricing, because they are aided and kept protected because of its proximity to white monopoly capital.
One such example, will be that of Phala Phala case, where stacks of foreign currency were stored under mattresses and couches by the President Ramaphosa, and with these monies stored, it was undeclared to institutions that regulate the flow of finances to be properly and necessary accounted for, and be taxed.

Chairperson, we are a country which is on the receiving end of illicit financial flows, which is not really technical but political.
Nonetheless, in most instances, transnational crime is more of an effect of regional instability, rather than a cause.

The belief, therefore, that organised crime in South Africa is as a result of the presence of African nationals, in itself, is harmful.
It is harmful in that the lack of control over crime in this country, has created a situation whereby our people associate Nigerians, Tanzanian, Zimbabweans and Somalians, with transnational crimes such as drug trafficking, fraud, internet scams, heroin trafficking, armed robberies and cash-in-transit heists, poaching and human trafficking.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 120 But we know that this is only one side of the debate, as we have seen even within our own ranks, our own Head of State, at the centre of a transnational crime syndicate.
However, the only way of knowing whether foreigners are involved in crime, is through analysing the SA Police Services, SAPS, crime statistics, which would help substantiate the percentage of crimes committed by foreign nationals compared to those involving locals.

Yet every quarter, the official crime figures released by the SA Police Services, contain no information about the identity or country of origin of the perpetrators or suspects.
The institutions such as the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, withhold statistics that could clarify the conviction rate of foreigners.

Their reports provide no information on the country of origin of these convicts.

This means that, the assumptions regarding foreigners’ involvement in crime in South Africa, isn’t based on solid empirical research.
For there exists lack of data or public access to it, which also means that, when foreigners are arrested, their cases are generalised to strengthen existing misconceptions attached to their countries.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 121 We have also noted that in most instances, cases involving African nationals often receive far greater media attention than those crimes committed by South Africans, in particular, white South Africans.
The EFF, therefore, urges the government that it should introduce legislation that will provide a specific framework for combating, policing and investigation of cross-border crimes.

The EFF calls for more accurate police and court data, to ascertain the nature and extent of organised cross border crimes in South African communities.
The EFF also calls on the ANC government to tackle internal weaknesses like corruption, at the Beitbridge Port of Entry, one of our busiest land borders in Africa, which provides a conducive environment for transnational organised crime.

For there appears to be little political within their ranks, which will strengthen the leadership and capacity of law enforcement agencies such as the NPA and SAPS.

Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair.

Ms F MAZIBUKO (Gauteng): Thank you very much, House Chair and let me acknowledge the Minister and all my colleagues, the MECs from other provinces that have joined the debate today.

Let me also acknowledge the hon members of the NCOP from the various provinces, Salga and all those that are listening to this interesting debate, all protocols observed ladies and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 122 gentlemen.
House Chair, as Gauteng we find it a bit difficult to participate in this debate because as a province, we are not necessarily situated at a point whereby we are closer to any border but we are right in the middle of the continent called South Africa.

As a result, everyone wants to come to Gauteng because they are looking for better job opportunities.

As you know that Gauteng is the economic hub of South Africa.
So, it means everyone will want to see an opportunity to actually come and either participate economically or come and participate in other ways of surviving.

Others will arrive here being undocumented.

We, House Chair, who do Operation Okae Molao in the wee hours of the morning, we actually come across Kombis carrying people.

Sometimes, it is women with children and most of them not even having any passports or no birth certificates.
Then, when you ask them ... IsiZulu: ... ukuthi nidlula kanjani ... English: ... wherever you are passing.

Sometimes with the language barrier we can’t communicate with them, hon House Chair.

They indicate that the only person carrying a passport is only a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 123 driver.

The rest of the passengers they don’t necessarily have any documentation.

You then ask ... IsiZulu: ... ukuthi kanti kungenwa kanjani?
English: Isn’t that there is a border gate and any other thing?

They basically are honest and say, no, we come through a fence or we come through other ways of actually coming in because that is another way of coming in.

Others indicate that no, no, we actually stop our transport and then count how many people don’t have documentation and then be able to talk to those that will be responsible and that’s how we pass and are able to come through.
So, they drive all the way up until they reach Gauteng because they are coming to Gauteng to seek for better opportunities.

The Minister has already touched on challenges for illegal mining, but majority of them are also associated with some of the nationalities that don’t necessarily live within us here in Gauteng.

They come all the way to do illicit mining.


Challenges of fake goods that are sold even here in our UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 124 province.

You go to the City Centre of Johannesburg, in fact, ... IsiZulu: ... ngale ngasezantsi ko-End English: ... all the way to Jeppe, majority of shops actually exist there.

They also sell fake goods that come to the country through various ways.
Many buildings have been hijacked and if you actually check the nationality of some of those who have hijacked those buildings, you find that they are not necessarily South Africans.

In those days when we used to be arrested for dompas, you will not go to Hillbrow, but nowadays still we can no longer go to Hillbrow because it has been taken over by other nationality that doesn’t necessarily come here in South Africa.
Many spaza shops that are owned in our communities and in our townships majority of them are not necessarily owned by South Africans, but they are owned by the people who are called my friend.

These people called my friend - sometimes there are allegations also of what they do when they reach these shops.
It is alleged that when they are in these shops, they sleep UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 125 within their shops because some of them they don’t have proper places to stay.

There is an allegation in Naledi, a young girl of 12-years-old as it is alleged that her Gogo sent her to the shop and she was sexually molested by the shop owner who is a Bangladeshi.
Time and again, we actually get these allegations that also come from our townships whereby our young people are also vulnerable.

Things that are also sold in these spaza shops, hon House Chair, are also shocking sometimes.

Closer to schools, they even sell a cough mixture that you will never even find in our chemist or within our pharmacy system.

Illegal cigarette and illicit cigarette that is also sold within many of these spaza shops leaves much to be desired.
That tells you that some of the things that you find here in Gauteng are not necessarily things that are made in South Africa, but they come one way or another through ‘mshosha phansi’ [backdoor.]

to Gauteng.

We are at the receiving end because everyone comes here to Gauteng and if they can’t survive, they find better ways to survive.

Some of them leads to committing crime.

Others it leads them to doing all sorts of things that can assist them to be able to have money.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 126 House Chair, as Gauteng like I indicated, we are at the receiving end, but provinces that are closer to these borders, they are the ones who can tell a better story of what it is that really happens in their provinces and how the healthcare system is also burdened just like is also burdened here in Gauteng.

Many of them even taking medication.


IsiZulu: Baphethwe yizifo ezingafani ... English: ... moving from one clinic to another declaring this sickness to the other, but that also shows that as Gauteng our infrastructure is under strenuous demand because - that’s why we now have 700 informal settlements.

The majority of those that live in this informal settlement are those that are undocumented.
You go to Diepsloot ... IsiZulu: ... akuhambeki ... English: ... House Chair, because some of them actually when a person gets an RDP house they then hire out that “Mkhukhu” they were UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 127 staying in, especially in the Reception area in Diepsloot.

The majority of people that are there is foreign nationality and that is why time and again ... IsiZulu: ... kuyaliwa laphaya.
English: Crime is very high even community of Diepsloot even closed the streets and demand that they be arrested.

However, some of the challenges are our very own laws, House Chair whereby they are arrested and as a result are released because of certain laws that are there that says they have not committed any crime or their only is to be charged for being in the country illegally.

Over and above, even in Lindela, Lindela is very full because they can’t cope.
Even if they are deported to their own countries, they actually come back because they are looking forward to actually coming to live here in Gauteng and be able to work here in Gauteng or be able to do any other thing.

Majority of our people living here in Gauteng they depend on cheap labour.

IsiZulu: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 128 Laba abahlala emakhoneni, abanye amaplamba abanye abomapendane, abanye basebenza ngogesi.
English: Our people actually go and fetch those people from the corners.

Time and again, we reprimand people from taking a person from the corner because those people are not vetted.

They don’t know who they are.

IsiZulu: Dukudu ... English: ... house breakings are on the rise and actually when we make a follow up, we find that it is a person who has worked in that household.
With those few words, let me conclude, House Chair, to say as Gauteng, indeed, we do suffer these challenges, but we believe that our colleagues that are in the provinces that are closer to the borders they must strengthen their oversight in ensuring that no one comes through who is undocumented.

I thank you very much.

Mr M DANGOR: Thank you very much Chairperson.

Chairperson, colleagues, Ministers and MECs, all protocol observed.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 129 South Africa is a member if the international family of nations.

After years of isolation under the apartheid regime, South Africa has been reintegrated to global family and thus has re-joined the international community.

This means that political dynamics taking place elsewhere in the world has impacted in the affairs of our country.
This interdependence of nations at the global level includes matters related to economics, socio economic issues as well as matters of security.

When we engage in a debate about cross border and transnational crimes, we should be mindful that our own and alone we cannot win the battle against all organised crimes that thatches beyond our borders.

At the international level, we are part of the international organisations that intend to coordinate global efforts to deal with challenges of organised crimes.
Such international institutions include Interpol.

Interpol is an intergovernmental organisation that provides support to national law enforcement efforts against organized crime including transnational crime.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 130 There are challenges related to the effectiveness of intergovernmental organisations that are mandated to deal with transnational crimes.
This is related to the political dynamics between nations that fragment efforts to deal with organised crime.

The estimates of the scale of transnational organised crimes are difficult to arrive due to the secretive nature of the activities and the under reporting by victims but also due to the different overlapping definitions of what indicators are used.

On the African continent, cross border and transnational crime is also an integral part of the conflict between states and within states.
This includes the actions by foreign players who collaborate with domestic political players and all business players to create conflict that is intended to pursue business interests and this case I am talking about large countries, powerful countries that support rebel movements to create instability in countries, to create regime change so that they can take those countries’ resources for nothing.
Those powerful countries should look at themselves when they talk about crime as they contribute to these crimes, they UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 131 finance extremist terrorist organisations that continue to destabilise most parts of Africa especially the Sahara regions, the eastern parts part of Africa and some parts of West Africa.

All manifestations of organised transnational crimes.
These conflicts in the continent divert the African countries from focusing on the socio economic development of their countries and focus their resources to fight against terrorism or rival groups.

The instability in our continent and in many instances leads to the displacement of people from their countries to seek refuge elsewhere and therefore carry with them the seeds of all manner of the tensions of the countries that they lived in.
The conflicts of the continents involved, illegal trades and the flow arms that are sourced through illegal channels.

These activities undermine the sovereignty of nations and their stability.

Conflicts on the continent undermine efforts by African governments to focus on strengthening their countries governance and thus grow their economies.

South Africa will not use Denel to supply arms to countries in conflict.
We would rather send people to make peace as we have UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 132 done now Tigray and Ethiopia.

Other countries use these instabilities to export arms to conflict zones and their military intelligence complexes survive on that as an example of the ongoing conflict that has been part eastern DRC, Democratic Republic of Congo, for many years.

These conflicts undermine the prospects for the economic development of the DRC.
The rebel groups are supplied with all sorts of ammunition through illegal channels and in the process the natural resources of the DRC are looted by interested parties.

These are acts of organised transnational crimes and they must be defined as such.

There are reports that some of these organised transnational criminal activities are geared towards raising resources to pursue instability in some countries.

The African continent to the African Union, AU has adopted the Constitutive Act of the AU.
The Constitutive Act urges members of the AU not to recognise any form of government that is established by any means other than the democratic processes.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 133 This is a step in the right direction to ensure determined efforts by African countries to discourage the calls that continue to raise their ugly heads in some countries.
The calls we witnessed are not immune from acts of organised criminal activities let alone of higher and of a more complex nature.

Therefore, dealing with the challenges of organised criminal activities involve both state and non-state actors and requires a strong multilateral approach and we cannot exclude anyone, we cannot exclude Russia and China.
We need to be inclusive to bring in the Western world, Russia, China, South Asia, Latin America and most importantly Africa into the resolution of the problem.

Our first point of call has to be Africa because Africa and the regional block will have to take us forward in the international community to ensure that we can find our place in the sun in the security council.
This will assist in curbing transnational crimes such as human trafficking, drug trafficking, illicit financial flaws, illegal fire arms trade, illegal wild life, money laundering and other transnational organised criminal activities.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 134 The African people are driving the agenda of the economic integration of the continent.

This will contribute to the economic growth of the African countries.
The Agfa will encourage inter African trade by stimulating the local production.

The integration of the African economy can only be realised in a peaceful and stable Africa.

The continued conflicts that are sponsored by some external players militate against the efforts of the African people much towards the rebirth of our continent.

Therefore, the call is for countries in Africa to engage amongst themselves on the dangers of transnational crimes in whatever way it manifests itself.
The African countries should join in efforts to deal with the cross border challenge and transnational crimes.

It requires the strengthening of the institution and the African states to coordinate activities to address this challenge.

I thank you very much House Chairperson.

Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson I rise on a point of order.
I believe that the last speaker may have been an imposter UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 135 because the hon Dangor that we know would have definitely referred to 1652 in his speech.

Thank you Chair.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): That is not a point of order.

[Laughter.]

Okay, hon members, let us continue.

I will now recognise hon Visser.

Ms C VISSER: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, and fellow South Africans good day.
Using specially recruited and trained Border Management Authority, BMA, border guards for access control while the SAPS and the SANDF are deployed to border posts is acknowledgement of failed governance.

Allowing cross border organised crime to flourish into several sustainable businesses since the mid 2000’s was not unknown, but allowed by the ANC Government.
The growth of organised crime, rise of elite corruption and erosion of state institutions have now converged to a form of self-sustaining, self-protecting and self-expanding criminal expansion disregarding our South Africa.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 136 Left unchecked, organised crime will continue to impair South Africa’s reputation and development, undermining the rule of law and the integrity of the state by allowing the development of cross border criminal syndicates and operations.

In effect South African borders became a threat to its national security for the quest to appease regional countries at the expense of the country’s security.
Government acknowledged the crisis of the porous borders, the years of poor investments, the decline in budgets of relevant supportive departments, the Department of Home Affairs being understaffed and incapacitate and the reality of state capture and its paralyzing effect of corruption but, the ANC government did nothing to address the problems at our borders for 20 years.
Indeed, leaving the South African borders to become a threat to its national security and severely damaging the lives of South African citizens and impeding the country’s development as a whole.

The porous borders of South Africa and the increasingly sophisticated, violent underworld economy becoming a crime UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 137 syndicate with established businesses entrenched in every one of 15plus illicit markets operating in South Africa.
Facing the reality of 15plus illicit organised crime markets increased exponentially into organised crime ecosystem causing insidious harm across all levels of the South African society, constituting the true threat of organised crime in South Africa.

Cross border stock theft has become one of the biggest challenges faced by South African farmers escalating into an unnerving and destructive reality facing all sectors of the farming community.
Cross border stock theft has intensified, becoming more widespread, organised, and violent.

Syndicates steal truckloads of livestock at a time affecting commercial and emerging farmers alike.

In rural communities, livestock is regarded as a living wealth and mostly the only source of income and sustenance of subsistence farmers.

Theft of livestock for subsistence farmers means loss of livelihoods but it also has a serious impact on commercial farmers and the red meat industry.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 138 All Farmers have lost their trust in the SAPS, with it being understaffed and incapacitated.

Despite stock theft being declared a priority crime, the low prosecuting success rate of the criminal justice system is to the disadvantage of farmers.

Livestock theft is costing the South African economy about R1,44 billion annually.
Farmers are unable to recover their stolen livestock once they cross the unsecured porous borders between South Africa, eSwatini and Lesotho.

In many of these cross border stock theft cases it is alleged that syndicates are supported in their operations by SANDF and or SAPS members at a price.

Government was short sighted to assume that SAPS has the capacity to effectively police a 4 800km South African landward border with more than five countries.
In 2009 Government overturned their initial decision and ordered the SANDF to resume the function of border security but with challenges of resources and budget cuts.
Will the newly established Border Management Authority be able to function with the needed integrity and capacitated manpower UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 139 as well as sufficient patrol vehicles, be well-resourced and well trained to be more than paper soldiers executing a paper plan driven by paper pilots to take control and resume the function of proper border security?
Will the Border Management Authority be able to ensure that South Africa’s borders are protected despite the degrading border infrastructure to stop South Africa’s borders being a playground for illegal migrants and cross border syndicates with their illicit economies of destruction of South African lives and livelihoods?

I thank you.
I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, hon members, delegates from provinces, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and MECs, it is an honour for me to participate in this critical debate about advancing our agenda of creating a safe and secure South Africa by waging a war against cross border and transnational crime.
The mandate of the Department of Home Affairs is derived from the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, as well as various Acts of Parliament and policy documents.

And part of its mandate is the responsibility of ensuring effective and simplest process of facilitating the movement of people and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 140 goods, in and out of the country.

This process has a direct effect on national security and international trade.
It is the department, through its effort, that creates an enabling environment for corporates to trade in the Republic of South Africa.

It thus become imperative that our ports of entry are well prepared in managing the entry of such people, as well as goods.

The department also endeavours to stimulate economic growth in the country through a responsive and efficient immigration regime that will maximise benefits and minimise risks to the country.
In ensuring that we align with this responsibility, the department has dramatically improved the efficiency of critical processes that enables a simplest process of movement, and we have enhanced security in ensuring we protect our borders from criminal activity that poses a threat to our sovereignty.

South Africa is still a country with borders and, we will always ensure that we protect the sovereignty and our borders as they currently exist.
These efforts are in line with the National Development Plan, which is committed to building a South Africa that is safe and conducive to inclusive development.

There can be no development without investment UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 141 and there can be no investment without an enabling environment.

The honour is on us to ensure that we create and maintain a safe and secure environment that supports economy growth.
The department is also responsible - in conjunction with the Department of Defence - for the control of illegal movement of people and goods in vulnerable segments of our border line.

We made the commitment in the Budget Vote of 2019 that we will fight the corruption that allows people and goods to enter the country illegally.

This remains top priority for the department, and we have made significant progress in tackling corrupt elements that have negative impact on our country’s economic growth.
We have identified the challenges which we acknowledge and are mitigating them.

We have a responsibility as the department not just to ...

[Inaudible.]

... to challenges, but to resolve those particular challenges.

It is as such that we have also taken a step in the right direction by adopting an integrated approach to border management that is characterised by a single command and control structure known as the Border Management Authority.
The establishment of the Border Management Authority is an ultimate priority for the entity to manage and oversee the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 142 various aspects associated with securing South African borders.

The establishment of the entity will amongst others, play a pivotal role in leading joint and co-ordinated efforts amongst key stakeholders to include the sharing and use of resources.
This effort will further include addressing the current aging strategic infrastructures in our ports of entry and within the border environment.

It will also assist in acquiring specialised equipment such as scanners and other ICT systems, and leading the redesigning and redevelopment programme at ports of entry.

Ports of entry are the entry and exit points for all conveyances, goods, as well as all persons entering or departing the Republic of South Africa.
The Department of Home Affairs and relevant department executes border functions at 72 declared ports of entry in the air, land, and sea environment through the Border Management Authority.

Managing and controlling borders and ports of entry is vital in order to ensure the rule of law and to deal and prevent transnational cross border crimes.
The border area is susceptible to various crimes of crimes and amongst others, include organised related crimes, serious and violent crimes, crimes against women and children and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 143 corruption.
As well as tracking of illicit, contraband, illegal drugs, undocumented persons, stolen and robbed vehicles, fire arms, wanted persons, stock theft, human trafficking, maritime and aviation related offences, these are some of the crimes related to people and goods and are common in the border environment.

South Africa has six neighbouring countries and is linked to them through 53 declared land ports of entry that are divided into commercial, semi-commercial and non-commercial ports.
Prior to 1994, the management of these ports were the preserve of the security structures.

That being, the declared ports were managed by the police while the border line was managed by the Defence Force, hence the footprints of the two entities in those areas.

The environment also has since declared Transfrontier Conservation Areas known as TFCAs.
Of which some are regarded as heritage sides and have declared ports of entry whilst various vulnerable segments of the land border line are also allocated within the TFCAs.

The latter through utilised by communities, tourists and employees are susceptible to transnational crimes such as illicit trafficking of animal products, pouching, as well as stolen and hijacked vehicles.
The republic has turned UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 144 international airports which are designed as ports of entry.

There is one airport in each province, except for Gauteng which actually has two, that being Lanseria and OR Tambo International Airport.

The aviation environment collects South Africa with international countries which have airlines that fly directly into the country.
Incidents of transnational crimes in this environment includes amongst others, illegal immigration, as well as drugs and human trafficking.

The movement of people and the goods is managed through the Electronic Movement Control Systems.

It is untrue that we do not have systems to manage our borders.

We do have quite advance systems that we use to manage our border environment.

The EMCS which is interface with other systems to include the police circulation system as well as Interpol.
Regarding the maritime environment, there are eight designated harbours along the coastline and one inland dry port City Deep which is in Gauteng, where there exists many fishing and non- designated harbours between the designated sea ports.

These harbours have the capability to be used as launch sites, hence the necessity to be included in the border strategy to be managed and controlled.

Almost all small fishing harbours are under the control of local municipalities.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 145 With regard to the borderline, the land border has a stretch of approximately 4862 kilometres between South Africa and her six neighbouring countries and a coastline of 2798 kilometres.

There are various informal crossings along the borderline which are commonly used through non-designated because of history of the demarcation of land borders.
There are communities that are separated on their land struggles along the borderline.

The management of the borderline operation is shared and is conducted in conjunction with the Department of Defence.

Transnational organised crimes have the potential to corrupt officials at borders.

Its focus is on bribing, money laundering and illicit trade which destroys undeveloped and developing economies and impedes growth, causing international instability.
Transnational organised crime syndicate can commit crime using illegitimate trade processes and incite a collusion with officials.

Considering that South Africa is utilised as a preferred economical on the African continent for processing and facilitating high volume of goods and travellers, structures such as the United Nations, the African Union and SADC, have various initiatives that seeks to deal with the global control of the movement of people and goods.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 146 We have made great strides towards the creation of a one stop border post approach in the land environment which will necessitate joint utilisation of resources with adjacent countries.

In this instance, joint training as well as joint operations should be done.

In doing so, we set the norms and standards to be developed and harmonised with the legal regulations of both countries.
However, the harmonisation of laws budgets for the port construction and others are proving to be a challenge.

The introduction of the Border Management Authority presents a shift from the application of multi-agency approach to an integrated border management model with a single command and control.

We are very hopeful that most of the sited inter jurisdictional crimes will be addressed.
This was evident by the deployment of the first cohort of the 200 border guards at the six vulnerable segments of the border law enforcements areas and ports of entry on 14 July 2022.

We are already on the ground dealing with the problems, not just raising them as problems.
Since their deployment, the border guards working with members of the SAPS as the Minister of Police was indicating, have been able to intercept more than 27 stolen vehicles attempting UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 147 to cross into Zimbabwe via Beitbridge, not Buitenbridge, its Beitbridge border post and Mozambique through Limpopo border post.
The bribing of border officials such as organisations remains a concern to the department operating at the border environment, hence the requirement that all BMA officials be subjected to stringent vetting.

In dealing with the scourge of stolen and hijacked vehicles for example, the BMA has involved the associations that deals with the financing of vehicles as well as insurance and car tracking companies.
Our strategic tools in securing our borders is the advanced passenger processing which has been in operation since 2009.

The advanced passenger processing provides us with pre- departure passenger check in data from air and ship liners.

It then performs a risk assessment which enables us to control the movement of high risk travellers prior to their arrival at our borders, making sure that we deal with the security issues in the countries of origin, not only when its inside the country.
It also gives advanced warning to the Department of Home Affairs and other relevant departments on persons of interest on board airliners and other forms of conveyance, and enable us to prepare for the arrival of such person.

It also gives us UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 148 early warning to enforcement agencies of wanted person trying to board flights leaving South Africa prior to them reporting even for immigration.
In the current calendar year, the APP was able to intercept 47 350 people who were either V-listed or over stayers or had invalid or expired travelling documents.

All these contributing to the safe and secure movement of people in our border environment.

In the fight regarding illegal immigration at our ports of entry, we are introducing - in all our commercial ports - the biometrics and control systems that will replace the current movement control system.
The Biometric Movement Control System, BMCS is intended to mitigate against the use of fraudulent passports at ports of entry, and will further eliminate the discretion used by immigration officers to facilitate the illegal movement of travellers into South Africa.

We have further introduced the use of transit visas to countries that has been challenged on migration.

This is to stop all the people coming through pipes there at OR Tambo, and we have proven to be successful in dealing with it.
Lastly, border guards have been deployed to eight vulnerable segments of the land border law enforcement areas as an UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 149 intervention to address inter-jurisdictional crimes.

This is the right step in ensuring that we win the war against cross border and transnational crimes.

I thank you, Chair.
I thank you, Chair.

Ms F F RADZILANI (Limpopo): House Chair, good afternoon to the hon Minister of Police in the Republic of South Africa, hon Cele, the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, hon members of the National Council of Provinces, my colleagues from other provinces, MECs, Salga representatives and all distinguished guests.

Hon Chair, receive our warm greetings on behalf of the people of Limpopo.
We are delighted to take part in this debate, with a great sense of anticipation, that this interaction will assist to amplify our safety concerns, as the Provincial Government in Limpopo.

This debate, hon Chair, takes place a few days’ shy from the hustle and bustle of the festive season, a period that requires the country to optimise its safety and security arsenal.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 150 Chairperson, as the province of Limpopo, our situation is made more precarious because of our geographical location, that connects us to the rest of the African Continent.

We continue to experience our fair share of troubles, in relation to the persistent challenges regarding cross-border and transnational crime.
These include as the hon Minister has already alluded to the trafficking in humans, arms, drugs, minerals and wildlife; production and trade of counterfeit goods; fraud and extortion; theft of vehicles, money laundering and cybercrime.

The N1 stretch, connecting South Africa and the neighbouring Zimbabwe, is being contaminated by unscrupulous elements, who are preying on the immorality of our officials, stationed at our borders.
Hon Chair, there are unimaginable levels of complicity, which are major contributors to this problem.

We are witnessing a proliferation of illegal immigrants from countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ethiopia and India, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 151 who are smuggled into the country, through the Beitbridge and Groblersbrug Border gates.
We are rated as a ‘Tier 2 watchlist country’, according to United Nations in terms of human trafficking, because we belong to a segment of countries whose government do not fully comply with minimum standards on human trafficking, but we are making significant efforts to meet those standards.
According to the United Nations, hon Chair, ‘Global Report on Trafficking in Persons - for the year 2020’; most of the detected trafficking victims in Sub-Saharan Africa, continue to be children, at about 60%, with both boys and girls detected in significant proportions.

In terms of the law, South Africa has enacted the Prevention and Combating of Trafficking in Persons Act, of 2013, which is in line with the United Nations Protocol to prevent, supress and punish acts of human trafficking.
This is our relentless efforts of fighting the scourge, and trying to combat it, by bringing its perpetrators to account.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 152 Our inability to detect these crimes, is made dire by the lack of willingness by officials who are stationed at our strategic ports of entry, because they have somehow been enveloped by a historic culture of corruption.
We will continue with joint operations as the province in order to ensure that we are successful in frustrating these perpetrators.

We have witnessed number of cases where the province has successfully arrested all the perpetrators especially when joint operations are conducted.

Hon Chair, the corruption amongst officials who are charged with the task of safe-guarding the country’s borders, is unparalleled.
We are experiencing high volumes of illegal cigarette consignments, destined for the Gauteng and international markets, which passes through the Beitbridge Border.

This corruption cuts across all agencies at the border gate, including the SA Revenue Service, which is known for being a proficient entity.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 153 All these anomalies have got a potential to undermine the country’s sovereignty.
There is an influx of explosives, which are originating from our neighbours Zimbabwe, and are finding their way into the country.

These explosives are used for illegal mining activities in the Gauteng province, while others are used in incidents of cash- in-transit and ATMs bombings.

Hon Chair, we have also recorded an increased number of poaching activities, that include rhino horns and elephant tusks, that are crossing the Beitbridge Border Post.
The number of stolen motor vehicles, that are driven through the Beitbridge Border Post, is also shocking.

We are reliably informed, hon Chair, that there is a growing market for 4 x 4 Bakkies, in Malawi, Zambia and Zimbabwe.

These vehicles are stolen from South Africa, and are driven across the Limpopo River to these foreign countries.
These criminals possess advanced skills, and are able to detect if a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 154 car has a tracking mechanism, and are able to remove it with ease.

The collapse of the border fence is also catalytic to high crime levels, as it is becoming a lot easier for goods to be moved across the un-manned border.
On behalf of the Limpopo Provincial Government, we shall double our efforts to support the work of the police, and other agencies, and we are encouraged with the introduction of the newly formed Border Management Agency, which will wage an intense battle against this malady.
For our part as the Provincial Traffic Authority, we will continuously conduct road blocks that are meant to deter this activity, and ensure that those who are found to be on the wrong side of the law, should feel the wrath of its might.

We will also intensify our cross-border operations, on the ports.

Together with the SA National Defence Force, we will intensify our programmes of border-line patrol.
Hon Chair, as I conclude, key to all these activities is our ability to improve our intelligence and information sharing UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 155 mechanisms, so that we can be able to make early detections of these crimes and institute adequate measure to counter them.

I thank you, House Chair.

Afrikaans: Mnr S F DU TOIT: Agb Voorsitter ... English: ... cross border and transitional crime is prevalent in every country.
It is interesting that the ANC chose this topic for today’s debate.

The question is, why does crime flourish in South Africa?

Who laid the grounds, paved the way, dug the dens and established a successful underground network in South Africa in the 1980s?

The late ANC president Oliver Tambo was tasked to directly oversee the well-known Operation Vulindlela, the secret domestic programme of the ANC initiated in 1986 and launched in South Africa in 1988.
Its main objective was for the ANC operatives to smuggle weapons and banned ANC leaders into the country in order to establish an underground network linking domestic activist structures with the ANC structures in exile.

Operation Vulindlela was primarily based in Natal and Witwatersrand.

It was smooth sailing for operation until UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 156 Winnie Mandela’s involvement in the 1989 death of the teenage activist, Stompie Seipei.
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission found that many of the weapons that were smuggled into the country by the ANC were later used in local conflicts involving the ANC members in the early 1990s.

Afrikaans: Hoekom gee ek hierdie terugblik in die geskiedenis?

Hoekom is dit vandag steeds relevant?

Dit is algemeen bekend dat die ANC Suid-Afrika se rug deur staatskaping en kaderontplooiing in staatsentiteite en munisipaliteite geknak het.
Die Zondo- verslag is verdoemend teenoor ANC politici, familie en besigheidsvennote, plaaslik en in die buiteland.

Hierdie misdaadsindikaat is nie tot niet nie.

Hulle het slegs hul strategie verander.

English: Commisioner Kethla Sithole acknowledged that the SA Police Service, SAPS, lost the war against crime.

This is still the case.

Crime is rampant.

Millions of rounds of ammunition and thousands of firearms were lost by the SAPS over the past few financial years.
I beg Minister Cele to explain, why there are police stations that make use of private security companies to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 157 protect the station and the officers inside as alleged by residents of Garankua?
In 1999, a senior ANC Ermelo member told the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's amnesty committee that the organisation’s leadership ordered the robberies, bank robberies and cash in transit, CIT, heists to generate funds, which saw a number of innocent security guards losing their lives.

The ANC obviously denied this allegation.


What was interesting, was the fact that the ANC was challenged by the previous government for weapons that were in the ANC’s possession to be subjected for ballistic tests, needless to say, the request fell on death ears.

Afrikaans: Die VF Plus het op meer as een geleentheid navraag oor die indiening, vernietiging en rekordhouding van ongelisensieerde wapens, ammunisie en plofstof wat deur uMkhonto weSizwe soldate gebruik is, gedoen.
Nie die Minister van Verdediging of die Minister van Polisie kon enige inligting oor die aantal wapens en/of plofstof wat moontlik deur die uMkhonto weSizwe soldate ingedien is of nie ingedien is nie, voorsien.

Dit is nogal vreemd.

’n Mens sou dink dat daar in die belang van staatsveiligheid opgetree sou word.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 158 English: Since December 2021 up to 3 February 2022, 59 cash-in-transit heists took place in South Africa.
Between 2008 and 2018, over 2 300 incidents took place.

According to the Hawks, more than a billion rand was stolen in these heists between 2008 and 2016.

Afrikaans: Hoe gemaak, Voorsitter?

Misdaad is van die min bedrywe in Suid-Afrika wat floreer.

Indien die regering ernstig oor die bekamping van oorgrens-misdaad en die uitwissing van misdaadsindikate, onwettige mensehandel, sluipmoorde, dwelmhandel, onwettige mynbedrywighede en terreurgroepe in Suid-Afrika was, sou dit lankal uitgewis gewees het.
Die ANC moet op sy eie stoep begin vee.

English: The problem is that government is again shifting the blame instead of facing the music.

Afrikaans: Die afgelope paar maande is die vergrootglas van ANC- korrupsie, die Zondo-verslag en Phala Phala skandaal, na UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 159 onwettige immigrante en zama-zama’s verskuif.

Dit is ’n probleem maar hulle verskuif die aandag.

English: How can the everescalating crime figures be stopped?
The answer is straight forward, Chair.

Remove the ANC from government, strengthen the crime intelligence centre, focus on effective policing and get someone else to wear the hat.

The ANC crime syndicates is leading by example.

South Africa deserves better.

Thank you, Chair.


Cllr D DE VOS (Salga): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, ho n Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon Chief Whip of the NCOP, hon House Chairpersons, hon MECs, hon permanent members of the NCOP and other special guests, the SA Local Government Association, Salga, acknowledges that cross border crime remains a challenge that is felt throughout all sectors.
Local government is also not immune to the effects of the cross boarder crimes.
Municipalities that are affected by cross border crimes are suffering devastations on several levels such as violence and attacks towards community members including serious in injuries, rape and murder, damage and illegal use of infrastructure such as water and electricity as well as cable theft, damage of critical UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 160 infrastructure, land invasions for informal settlements, criminal elements from the possessions of illegal firearms, allegations of human trafficking, cross border gang-related conflicts and increasing trend of people committing crime in South Africa and immediately crossing back into their countries.
Efforts to curb the tread and fear of violent criminality and destructions have mainly been isolated and there is a need for a co-ordinated, holistic and prevention-driven approaches that integrate the national, provincial and local government in partnerships with civil society and business.

Community safety cannot be delivered by one sphere of government only.

The whole of government approach is required and collaboration with nonstate actors is required to expand into a whole of society approach.
The Constitution recognises that different spheres of government at national, provincial and local levels as distinctive that emphasises the independent and interrelated nature of government provides a comprehensive approach and mechanism for integrated response to crime and violent prevention.

Local governments, especially counsellors, are well placed to roll-out crime and violent prevention interventions at local UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 161 level.
The responsibility of local government in provision of safety and security as well as crime and violence prevention is derived from the key legislation and policy frameworks which include, but not limited to the SA Police Service Act, Criminal Procedure Act, National Road Traffic Act and Disaster Management Act.
It is apparent from the various sections within the Constitution and other key legislation that all three spheres of government have constitutional obligations to deal with matters of safety and security in the country.
The Salga national conference in March 2022, had a commission on migration which resolved all amongst other things, the support that should be rendered to the border municipalities by the different arms of government as border municipalities are essentially a different and special group of municipalities with unique challenges that are not similar to other municipalities.
The conference also resolved that Salga should lobby for a special intergovernmental programme that will seek to address the unique challenges of border municipalities including special intergovernmental relations, IGRs, arrangement, legislative exemptions and special provisions, funding and capacity building.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 162 The SA Local Government Association will be hosting a national summit on migration in February 2023, which is aimed at bringing together various government entities and the private sector to discuss various implications of cross border migration and how it should be managed to mitigate the negative effects.
Crime knows no borders and transnational criminal networks source illicit products in one country trafficking it into another and market it in the third in less than 24 hours.

Any response to this mental organised transnational criminal networks cannot succeed without the co- operation of countries within a region.
Collectively, all countries within the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region have one national general policing agency and one central nodal point for communication on policing matters.

On the flipside Salga also considers that certain crime trends and crime patterns are unique to provinces and some border countries.
For example, cross border crime between KwaZulu- Natal and Mozambique and the Western Cape and Namibia will have unique crime trends that are influenced by transnational cross border criminal networks.
These provinces will then need specific memorandums of understanding, MoUs, and supporting operational plans with the respective countries that specifically target these criminal networks that impact the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 163 crime trends in the province.

Local government will play a supportive role in the multidisciplinary and multiagency approach that would be the national and or provincial government prerogative.
Noting the resource constraints at local government does have, their supportive role is a force multiplier to operations that would be endorsed by the local framework.

This will directly addresses the interdependence within the three spheres of government in achieving national imperatives.

Hon Chairperson, for this deliberation it must be highlighted that as Salga would like to tender the following key considerations.
South Africa has a strong and coherent policy framework on community safety, but there is a need for an improved co-ordination regarding the implementation of efforts.

Partnerships based on all government and all societal approaches are required to cater complexities of criminality and violence.

Transversal approach should focus on community safety outcomes across the core functions of the municipality and participatory and community-centred approaches are key.

Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 164 Mr V R SHONGWE (Mpumalanga): Hon Chairperson, let me take this time and greet the Members of the NCOP, the Minister of Police and Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, and also take this time and say all protocol observed, for the sake of time.

I’m also happy to join this debate today.


I think it’s a debate that is meant or chosen to educate all of us about the environment from our different provinces and the entire country.

Illegal immigration and cross border crime are consequences of economic imbalances between Southern Africa and other countries.
Not only do people from countries such as eSwatini, Mozambique, Malawi, Zimbabwe, and Zambia view our country’s figurative land of milk and honey, so do people from other countries from the continent.

As a result of political instability, wars and higher rate of under development in the region, multitudes find coming to our country seen as a viable thing to do.
Others come here with relevant and proper documentation, and such individuals are also contributing positively to the economic development and growth of our country.

That must be said.

There are others, as we all know, who cross the border illegally, often with the help of local communities from the different borders these people will come here and look for work.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 165 Chairperson and members, I must mention to you that the issue of Russia and Ukraine that came from one of the hon members, I think that particular issue should be left at the national level and international level.

Because that is a matter, which I think has no particular objective and it has nothing to do with us as South Africa except that it affects us in one way or another.
Some who cross the country legally do so with visitor’s passport or travel document.

They will later find some odd jobs that includes working as a domestic helpers or childminders among others.

This by the way is illegal because they will be having is only visitor passport and not work permits as required by the law of a foreigner who work in another country.
And I must say one matter that has been highlighted in this debate today is that it’s not foreigners in all times that are involved in crime and I want to put it in perspective.

Out of the five-months that we visited around Ermelo and Breyten police officers were able to arrest about 89 foreign nationals coming from different countries.

I think it is important that when we talk about these issues we are scientifically correct in terms of numbers.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 166 The economic imbalances in the region make people to commit crimes cross border illegally and at times do so using fraudulently obtained documents.

Others commit crime by bringing large quantities of illegal and counterfeit goods in our country.

And that has been said by a number of speakers today.
It is very much important that all of us as those provinces that are sharing borders, like our province, we are sharing with Eswatini and Mozambique ...

I did go there with the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, to look at the situation of our borders.

There are a lot of things that needs to be fixed that they use to protects the influx of people to our province and our country and so on.
However, I must say that it is not South Africans who have no trust to South African Police Service, SAPS, it’s only a certain section of people that do not to have trust in SAPS and it must be mentioned that it is because a certain number of police officers, may be those that are involved in wrong activities.

But that does not mean the SAPS in general, people do not have confidence in them.

This we have seen many times.

Earlier this year I went to the members of the SANDF.
We visited various areas Nkomazi.

We have seen ourselves how people were moving without utilizing established entries at UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 167 the border to move in and out of the country.

Therefore, hon members, one of the things that we should continue to prioritize as a country is the enhancement of border management and make it extremely difficult for those that are coming here illegally to come here.
We should vigorously address acute staff shortages augment resources such as patrol vehicles and also increase the level of sophistication of the equipment we use to combat illegal movement of goods and people at our ports of entries.

Lack of adequate personnel and resources are some of the factors that exacerbates the challenge of people crossing our border illegally.
Others include insufficient patrol vehicles and aging infrastructure, have made our country to become a target of illegal immigrants, crime syndicates as well and smuggling of vehicles to neighboring countries.

Hence, there is a dire need to strengthen our borders.

And I think I’ve shared that with the Minister of Police so that he can be able to share that particular challenge with his colleagues at the national level.
Our borders have suffered years of poor investment on infrastructure and have become a threat to national security.

We are witnessing an increase in the smuggling of drugs UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 168 counterfeit clothes, human trafficking, through land borders.

In addition, illegal immigrants have increased societal tensions which have sometimes resulted in xenophobic attacks.
Failure to address illegal immigration and cross border crime, risk fueling of xenophobic tensions and rendering boarder management unabsolute, which would, in turn threaten our national security.

Lack of co-operation in Southern African Development Community, SADC, leads to regional borders becoming a breeding ground for crime.
And I must say, we must also try as a country to involve technology, that of managing our areas through cameras and other technological equipment that will assist us in making sure that we monitor our borders.

Because if we don’t do that, we will be dealing with some terms in terms of crime in our different provinces and the country.

Because those people are coming in and out in a wrong way and through areas where they are not supposed to go from.
And we must ensure that we prevent it to the best of our ability.

We also want to appreciate the Department of Home Affairs to come out with a particular unit that will assist us in making sure ...

[Inaudible.]

... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 169 As I conclude hon Chair, I will say that let us not politicize this matter.
Let us engage and make sure that when we speak as members we speak in the manner that will contribute in dealing with the challenges that we have raise.

Let us not come here and make it a talk show.

But rather engage in a way that we are trying to deal with all those challenges.

Thank you very much.

Mr G BOSMAN (Western Cape): Good afternoon hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, members of the National Council of Provinces, and a very warm welcome this afternoon to the South Africans joining us.
As we celebrate and talk about this topic in this Chamber today, we are all acutely aware of the plethora of domestic and global challenges within which South Africa finds itself.

Fortunately for us – the Western cape province, which I have the pleasure of representing today, is in a better position to respond to these challenges than the rest of our beautiful country.
We are in this position because the people of the Western Cape have taken ownership of their own safety and they have supported their elected government to deliver to deliver on its promises to keep the people of the province and those visiting safe.

We do this by complimenting the work done by UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 170 the honest men and women who are brave wearing their blue uniforms.
The transversal safety plan is the Western cape response to the declining ability of the SA Police Service through its political leaders to keep us safe.

The Western Cape should not have a safety plan, but because the ANC is unable to manage policing and keep us safe, this province had to step in and compliment the dismal policing resources allocated to our province.
We know from the recent court judgment in the Western Cape High Court that the senior leadership team at the SA Police Service has long relinquished control of the operational and strategic planning to organised criminals.

That is why we are not surprised that the Global Initiative Against Transnational Organized Crime index of 2021 rate South Africa 19th in the world for criminality.

This place the country ahead of Libya, Brazil and Russia.
According to Enact Africa Organised Crime Index, South Africa’s criminality ranking within Africa jumped from 10th in 2019 to Fifth in 2021.

Organised crime, inclusive of transnational crime is being described as an existential threat to South Africa democratic institutions, to our economy and our people.
We know from media reports, just this morning, that the Financial Intelligence Agency is investigating the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 171 operations of global terror group, the Islamic State’s presence in South Africa.

This shows us how complex and hybrid this threat is.
It does not only drugs leaving the borders of Afghanistan to Cape Town on its way to Brazil, much of it ending up in our communities, but it is destroying our communities and the lives of many of our young people.

The flow of illicit drugs into the Western Cape and South Africa is not a new problem.

It is a global problem, but South Africa has become the global spaza shop for heroin, cocaine and meth.
South Africa being part of a global supply chain, this means that this trade fills violent inter-gang competition, large scale and high level state corruption and all of these leads to more young men and women dying in gang- related violence in our communities.

There are senseless killings of few by the large number of illegal firearms in our streets and illegal firearms in the hands of organised gangsters.
These firearms are not only just transported across our sovereign borders, but they are time supplied by police officers in this country.

Since the Western Cape does not have its own firearms destruction site, we see a proliferation of firearms on our streets, because corrupt SAPS UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 172 officials have ensured that these firearms end up in the hands of gangsters, drug dealers and transnational criminals.
The flood of diverted firearms in South Africa is a major facilitator for organised crime, especially in the drug and taxi industry.

This has driven to high levels of gang violence in recent years, higher than what we have seen before.

This is also a contributor to the professionalisation of violence purchased by the underworld and the upperworld actors.
The Western Cape law enforcement advance officers also known as Law Enforcement Advancement Plan, Leap, officers are constantly confiscating these firearms.

South Africa is witnessing a dramatic expansion, diversification and legitimisation of extortion across a broad spectrum of society.

Extortion undermines the rule of law and challenges the role of the state as a provider of security.

This is especially damaging when we do not have a functional crime intelligence apparatus in South Africa.
The only way we can deal with the damaging impact of organised cross-border and transnational crimes is to urgently assess our policing needs and priorities.

We need to ask ourselves whether our crime intelligence resources are able to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 173 reflectively identify, prevent and deal with criminals coming into our borders.
The Western Cape is using all of the tools in our constitutional arsenal to arrest this phenomenon, but we need the Minister of Police to urgently depoliticise policing and either hypersolve this problem or the Minister should get out of the way and allow those competent governments to get the job done.

We cannot continue relinquishing control of our safety to criminals.

Whether those criminals are operating in our province or across our national borders.
We need to do more as a country to ensure that the laws we have are being implemented and are being implemented effectively.

It makes no sense that we have a secure border and a border management agency but we don’t have the capacity to actually arrest and prosecute those who are found guilty of crimes.
So, I again ask, “Can we have a depoliticised policing apparatus in South Africa that will help us solve the problem of criminals coming into South Africa and criminals operating outside of South Africa?” I thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: House Chairperson, hon members any threat to any person, any threat to property of any citizen or indeed anybody within the confines of our borders should cause UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 174 us concern.
Any obstacles put in the way of South Africans from exercising their freedoms which are guaranteed within our Constitution, our national laws and international convention, should cause us so much concern that we should stand up and do something about it.

We must be able to confront, we must be able to prevent, we must be able to take any action to deter anybody who causes such obstruction to people’s freedoms, rights and privileges.
But any person who has privileges without having responsibilities, always and forever takes advantage of those freedoms.

And therefore, we need to begin to look at the citizen.

And we need to begin to ask ourselves what responsibilities we carry as individual South Africans towards the safety and security of each one of us.

In other words, I am saying that security must not be the government’s prerogative alone.
It must be all of us contributing towards making sure that South Africa is stable, it grows, it prospers.

The police are responsible House Chairperson, for maintaining order within the borders of South Africa.

The Home Affairs UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 175 systems and policies must ensure orderly entrance and exit of the movement of all us, whether we are citizens or visitors.
We can only hope House Chairperson, that the roll out of the Border Management Authority, BMA, will tighten security and add to the popular safety for all.

The rights, freedoms and privileges of citizens are entrenched in our Constitution.

As I said security is not just about government, it is about all of us not just taking but doing.

We must contribute House Chairperson, towards stability and prevention of all forms of violations and crimes.
This reminds me of national crime prevention strategies of the 90’s, which emphasized, strengthening of the criminal justice process, which was meant to lead into a more effective and efficient justice system.

So, justice must be visible, must be quick.

It also relied on the environmental design, which enabled ease of crime detection and identification of criminals or potential criminals.
It spoke to the public values, it spoke to strengthen public education, because this would enable communities to react differently to crime and violence.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 176 And of course we must not forget that transnational programmes are always aimed at improving border, traffic and the related crimes.
It is important House Chairperson, to note that cross border crimes pose a serious threat to the collective, peace and safety in the region, it’s not just about one country.

The reduction of that trust in the region will present us with a new challenge and therefore we must be innovative and challenging but also become about how we handle this situation.

Cross border entrance national crimes, undermine the standing of any state.

And it affects the relationship between the citizens and the state.
And if you listen to the members of the opposition, you will begin to understand just how this cross border panic is beginning to attack all of us.

We start pointing fingers instead of looking at solution.

Now, the Constitution of the Republic, Section 201(2) mandates the South African National Defence Force to defend and to protect the Republic, its territorial integrity and its people.
We are not about to relinquish that responsibility House Chairperson; we are not about just to hand over UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 177 responsibilities given to the defence force, because we are currently badly resourced.
We are going to ensure that the territory of South Africa remains thoroughly, thoroughly policed, protected and that the men and women in uniform of the South African National Defence Force on those borders are given all the protection, the resources that they need.

And I think we should rather than always see them as criminals, take our hats off for those who do their work diligently.

I am also sure that members of this House are aware of Operation Corona.
It has netted more criminals on the borders, people without documents on the borders.

It has returned cars which were stolen worth millions, contraband, weapons and every day we get these reports because these men and women, who as I admit are for now not as well-resourced as they should be.

But we do intend, as soon as our budgetary problems improve to take care of the men and women who are out there.
Now, the South African National Defence Force has been empowered to protect, as I said the territory of South Africa.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 178 This extends to the international waters.

This means that the national borders of South Africa, for us include not only the land, but the air, the maritime border borderlines domains as well as South Africa’s cyberspace domain.

Now, SANDC elements are deployed across the 4773 km border of this country.
It must be noted that this mandate is conducted outside of and does not include the 75 ports of entry, where we think that the BMA will be able to show us what it is made of, that will be resourced to do all that and that will free other people to do what the Constitution and the laws of this country exhorts to do.

We should say that we are looking at ... actually beginning to practice what we are able to do in terms of the laws.

Because that border control extends to 10km in land of the borderline.
So, if we do our work well House Chairperson, the border areas, the villages and the little towns close to the borderlines should be stretching that responsibilities beyond the 10km zone.

And this should be view as the extended area of operation.

Because, it is within these small towns and border villages that criminal activities are brewed, that crime thrives, that illicit goods are stored and transported.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 179 So, we need to be getting our stories correct, not competing as police or BMA or defence, but beginning to say what are the areas of responsibilities for all of us to make sure that we do what is good for the country and for the citizen.

I want to say that livestock has been recovered but we have not stop short House Chairperson, of looking back at history.

What was great that was done by the commando system?
What made us to do away with the commando system?

Can we take back what was good and make sure that you do have citizens who can protect, not their own personal effects but communal and national effects and property?

We do have to assess the deployment of the 22 companies which the defence is supposed to deploy.

Members know that so far we have deployed 15 companies across and we have augmented that with the use of technology.
We do intend in the coming financial year, with the improvements on our financial budget, to increase the technology around that, sonars, radar, all the new fanakalos which we can put to ensure that each piece of our border is properly protected.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 180 House Chairperson, this could not be new or unique to South Africa, all countries do this.
Technology is the way to go, it can sense whether a rat is climbing or a donkey is criming or a man and indeed a child is being pushed under or over the fence.

So we are going to go there.

We need to be looking at whether or not in the border, we are able to talk to our counterparts in the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region.

I do know Minister of Police that I am talking to my counterpart across the borders.
Those talks have already started with the Ministers of Defence in both Lesotho and Botswana.

We will soon be meeting with the Minister of Defence in Zimbabwe.

We would take these talks on hard, sometimes amongst ourselves so that all of us can ensure that we do have some area where we can work properly with each, with trust.

Because if one of the SADC region go down, all of us will go down.
What is happening in Mozambique was predictable, we knew for years that small arms were coming from up there in Somali via Mozambique, coming down south.

We have also known for a while that South Africa was destined for the heroin and the other drugs which also flown up there, coming into this country UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 181 because South Africa is perceived as the one that has more resources.

So, if we talk as citizens, as country men and women.
If we respect our border responsibilities with our neighbours.

If we make sure that in fact, there are things that we can politic about and there are things we can’t.

Because the safety not of you and I, hon members, the safety of our children, the safety of this country, the ability to grow the environment that will enable our economy to grow and create that economic stability that we need is important for us.
So, sometimes I would say let us fight, but fight when the time is right not when a country is at crisis.

Fight and find fault when people are not doing what is not right.

The hon members have also said that men and women at the border post are doing criminal things, are bribable.

In the Defence Force we have instituted inquiries, the military police and the military justice system will kick in.

If people have to be court martialled, if people have to be kicked out of the Defence Force, so be it!
But maintain order, cleanliness in the system, so shall we do it, not only at the borders but throughout the defence.

Because you cannot be the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 182 protectors of values and integrity if you yourself have issues that are hanging.

So hon members we, wish that South Africa would sometimes forget our differences and face common enemies together.
Hold the hands and make sure that those that are in the police are enable to do the job.

Those that are busy with border management are enable to do that.

That all of us in the security clusters are united.

To get the resources that would enable us to get all the right equipment, improving on what is already at the borders.

To enable all of us to allow South Africans to sleep in peace.

And I thank House Chairperson.


Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, hon House Chairperson, hon Minister of Defence, hon Minister of Police, hon Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, cross-border and transnational crime poses one of the greatest threats to our national security, and speaks to the porous nature of our borders.

It contributes to many of the crime statistics and horrible violence experienced by South Africans daily, such as hijackings, kidnapping, and human trafficking.
The security sector itself must be amply capacitated in order to carry out its mandate and its respect.

We must again raise UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 183 the dire circumstances many of our SAPS and military branches find themselves in, in respect of logistical and human resources.

There needs to be better intelligence gathering and exchange.
It has never been more important than that our security cluster is capacitated and capable of fulfilling its mandate to all South Africans in ensuring that they feel safe and are safe.

There is extremism on the border with our neighbour Mozambique struggling with the rise of terrorism and terror cells.
The smuggling of commercial explosives between South Africa and its neighbours has reportedly escalated in recent years, whilst many of these commercial explosives are used for illegal mining, some are reportedly found to have been used in cash-in-transit robberies and the blasting of ATMs.

Hon Chairperson, one cannot speak about the lack of border control and crimes without mentioning one of the biggest crimes taking place at the border - corruption.
Corruption leads to state resources being undermined and wasted.

Corrupt officials are turning a blind eye whilst criminals carry out UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 184 their activities.

Where is consequence management against corrupt officials?

One of the major contributors to border crime is illegal immigration often from persons fleeing war and conflicts and poverty.
To combat translational border crimes, we need our neighbouring countries to also support us and for Southern African Development Community, SADC, to help play an active role in promoting peace and stability in the region.

To this end, our security institutions must be both effective and accountable to our citizenry.

We all have important roles to play in alleviating the complex drivers of crime and safety, both nationally, regionally and on the continent.

Thank you, hon Chairperson.


Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, House Chair, laws and borders are there for law abiding folks.

Criminals disregard both in their pursuit of self-enrichment outside the norms of society.

The rewards are substantial.

We have heard today of the many ways of conducting criminal activities across borders, and the Joint Standing Committee on Defence witnessed it first-hand when we saw the makeshift border crossings made by vehicle smugglers.
And be assured, that if you are smuggling a car UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 185 across the border, you may as well put in some other contraband in while you are busy.

A case of “kill two birds with one stone”, perhaps.

The rewards are great, and the risks to criminals on our borders are far too low to be a major deterrent.

The obvious threats have either been mentioned today or are well-known.
Vehicles being taken out of South Africa, drugs being brought in.

Human trafficking and illegal landings at our small airports and harbours.

The nonsensical ban on cigarettes during this government’s lockdown highlighted the scale of cigarette smuggling.

What is alarming, not only with the cigarettes, is that the criminals are known, and they continue openly amongst us.

And not only are they not brought to book, but they are celebrated, be it in the kasi or the hood.
The gangster culture is admired and emulated, or it even goes into the swanky clubs and hotels where they rub shoulders with the rich and the famous, the police and the politicians.

That brings us to the fact that we now face greylisting by the world’s financial arbiters.
I am sure the President was shocked, as he usually is, but all of us were a bit surprised UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 186 when we heard that the financial checks and balances that are in place were not working to prevent transnational crime.

But when you think about all the money that is currently in Dubai, whether be with the Guptas, Duduzane or uBaba himself, it is obvious that money flows were not monitored.
Once again this government has been found lacking.

Each time government does something to stop cross-border crime, there are those on the inside ensuring that their friends can beat the system.

Look at the washing line border fence that was a ‘GOOD’ idea at the time.

Absolutely decimated and so easy to beat for the vehicle thieves, the smugglers and the human traffickers.

Stock theft units have been disbanded.


The Sars and customs were hollowed out, and a Border Management Authority, BMA, has been created to make sure that there is enough role confusion that nobody has to take the blame.

The Financial Intelligence Centre, FIC, has been ring-fenced and is operating in isolation.

For every solution, a loophole has been created.

The Police Minister, today, listed some successes, and indeed Minister, successes must be celebrated and acknowledged.
But Minister, the successes are too few.

You spoke about Crime Intelligence, but your biggest failure is the lack of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 187 intelligence.

It shouldn’t take a James Bond or even a poor lookalike, to tell you that South Africa’s intelligence services have no handle on cross-border crime.
Again, it has been hollowed out by cadre deployment, be it within the SAPS or State Security Agency where too much focus is on internal party bickering for them to do the job that they should be doing.

Instead, we rely on reports from foreign intelligence operators.

Mr Nqatha reminded us of the Freedom Charter, indeed, that document promised us that there would be security and comfort, and peace and friendship.

The ANC has not delivered these things.


There is no one here who has not been impacted by serious crime.

The Freedom Charter has been abandoned.

Member of executive council, MEC, Mazibuko thinks that Gauteng is not a border town.

She forgets that Johannesburg is the world’s largest dry port – look it up – OR Tambo International Airport is a major thoroughfare for crime and criminals.

Many today, have decried the foreign nationals living amongst us as being the criminal elements.
Remember, that is how we may be perceived when we visit them.

Mr Shongwe and I agree on this point.

Listening to today’s inputs seems that the Salga UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 188 has better solutions than government.

Another thing that Mr Shongwe spoke about was the invasion of Russia into the Ukraine.

I would say that is the ultimate transnational crime.

Moving on to Minister Modise, blaming a lack of resources cannot be your excuse.
Minister, you sit in Cabinet, you sit in a caucus that pushes a bad budget through, each year.

But certainly, Minister, we welcome your thoughts on the re- establishment of the commandos system.

In conclusion, House Chair, the ANC-led government has played an active enabling role in creating a gangster state.

The love of money and the lack of consequences has made politicians in high places the playthings of the criminals, ensuring that there are no consequences for them either.
No risks and a shared reward.

The lawlessness takes over.

What a mess for us to fix when we take over in 2024.

But fix it, we will.

South Africa deserves it.

South Africa deserves a DA government.

Thank you.


Mr M I RAYI: Hon House Chairperson, greetings to you, greetings to the Chairperson of the NCOP, Minister and Deputy Ministers, MECs, hon Permanent and Special Delegates, representatives of SA Local Government Association, Salga, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 189 fellow South Africans.
Perhaps the recollection of what our government has said in its National Crime Prevention Strategy will remind us of how the matter of organized crime has been characterized by the government.

The National Crime Prevention Strategy observed that: The high levels of crime pose a serious threat to our emergent democracy.

That violent crime often leads to a tragic loss of life and injury, and the loss of possessions and livelihood due to crime is incalculable.
It further said that: Crime results in the deprivation of the rights and dignity of citizens, and poses a threat to peaceful resolution of differences and rightful participation of all in the democratic process.

Further, that: Crime casts fear into the hearts of South Africans from all walks of life and prevents them from taking their rightful place in the development and growth of our country.
Crime inhibits our citizens from communicating with one another UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 190 freely, from engaging in economic activity and prevents entrepreneurs and investors from taking advantage of the opportunities which our country offers.

The rights and freedoms which the constitution entrenches are threatened every time a citizen becomes a victim of crime.
On this basis, Government regards, in the National Crime Prevention Strategy, the prevention of crime as a national priority.

The National Crime Prevention Strategy lists a number of departments and institutions that will lead in the implementation of the strategy.

The Prevention of Organised Crime Act of 1998 legislated some important measures to deal with organized crime in line with the strategy.

These measures in the Act require a co-ordinated approach by various state departments and institutions.
Amongst these institutions is the Department of Defence and Military Veterans that has a constitutional obligation to safeguard our territorial sovereignty and guard our borders.

It is common cause that the Department of Defence and Military Veterans is one of the departments that has seen its budget allocation declining for some time.
Therefore, when we develop ways of addressing the challenges posed to the country as a result of transnational crimes, consideration should be made UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 191 to the kind of resources that should be availed to enable state institutions to execute their mandates in this regard.

Again, the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition is one of the critical role players in the fight against transnational crimes.
The Department of Trade, Industry and Competition plays an important role in creating an enabling environment for investment, both in the country and by South African businesses abroad.

It therefore means that the regulation of trade should be such that it is strengthened to ensure compliance when goods and services cross borders.

The South African Revenue Service, Sars, is also critical in fighting the cross-border and transnational crime.
Amongst the crimes listed under transnational crime is the illicit financial flows which deprive our country and the continent the financial resources that illegally leave our shores destined for other countries.

The issue of under-reporting of profits, profit shifting, money laundering, requires an efficient custom regulation that will ensure tight and regulated movement of moneys between countries.
This obviously requires a collaborative and co-ordinated approach between countries, especially on the effective implementation of custom regulations.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 192 The fight against cross-border crime and transnational crimes requires an intelligent driven operation.

A co-ordinated intelligence approach is very critical from the police, the State Security Agency and the Military Intelligence.
We are mindful of the weaknesses that have been identified in the High-Level Panel on Intelligence as well as the Expert Panel on the 2021 July Unrest.

These weaknesses and the recommendations made in the reports require urgent attention by the intelligence community.

We note the progress that has been registered in strengthening the capacity of the intelligence services by government.
The recent appointment of the Inspector-General of Intelligence will add to the stabilisation of the governance within the intelligence community as well as to strengthen the co- ordination of intelligence work.

In the recent past, Parliament passed the Border Management Authority, the BMA, and subsequently, the President ascended the BMA into law.

We are aware that the process of the implementation, in phases, of the BMA is underway.
We are hopeful that it will strengthen the management of our borders in a collaborative and co-ordinated manner between various state departments and agencies.

It is also important to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 193 appreciate that cross-border crimes and transnational crimes are complex and evolve over time.

Their modus operandi continue to change and new forms of cross-border crimes are also emerging.
For instance, the SADC region is experiencing pockets of incidences that may be linked to acts of terrorism and this is the kind of crime that was not of concern some few years ago.

This, therefore, means that as a country and the region, we should continuously analyse the kinds of organized crimes affecting our region and update our approach to address such crimes.
Hon House Chair, I think I need to respond to some of the issues that were raised by particularly members of the opposition though some of them are usually complaints, focusing just on challenges without providing any solutions.

At least there was one proposal that was made by hon Michalakis of the DA.

He was proposing that there should be a commissioner or cyber security which is the advisory body that should be accountable to Parliament.
We need to remind hon Michalakis that there is a Cybercrimes Act, No 19 of 2020.

President Ramaphosa accented to that on 26 May 2021.

I think UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 194 he should go to that Act and check all the issues he was referring to are covered there in that particular legislation.
Let me just quote the purpose of the Cybercrimes Act of 2020 as follows: To create offences which have a bearing on Cybercrimes; to criminalise the disclosure of data messages which are harmful and to provide for interim protection orders; to further regulate jurisdiction in respect of Cybercrimes; to further regulate the powers to investigate Cybercrimes; to further regulate aspects relating to mutual assistance in respect of the investigation of Cybercrimes; to provide for the establishment of a designated Point of Contact ... Maybe this is similar to this issue of a commissioner, a Point of Contact which will be the office, in terms of this legislation.
... to further provide for the proof of certain facts by affidavit; to impose obligations to report Cybercrimes; to provide for capacity building; to provide that the Executive may enter into agreements with foreign States to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 195 promote measures aimed at the detection, prevention, mitigation and investigation of Cybercrimes ...
So, there is no need of another body because there is an Act that is dealing with the issue of Cybercrimes.

With regards to the hon member from the Western Cape, the challenge with the Western Cape is that they think that they are a republic of Western Cape.

They do not regard themselves as part of South Africa.

Because they know that they will never rule South Africa as a whole, they now want the devolution of powers on each and every thing.

They would like to have their own rail.


We have Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa but they would like to have their own rail agency.

These are the demands they always forward in the committee where we sit, in the transport sector.

They will demand their own police outside the SA Police Service.

Hon Minister, has always informed us on regular basis that when it comes to the allocation of police, the Western Cape receives a lion’s share in terms of the numbers.
But they will always complain because the strategy is to have their own republic as the Western Cape, something they will never get.

They want their own electricity.

They demand all these powers UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 196 in terms of devolution of powers because they want to have their own republic of the Western Cape.

Thank you very much.


The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon House Chairperson, one has listened and hon Rayi responded to some things that might have made sense and some that that do not make sense.

Hon Ryder, you spoke of Duduzane and you forgot Steinhoff.

I think you need to put them in the same pocket all the time when you speak.

I am just reminding you; it should not be the face that you remember and not remember the people.
House Chairperson, this hon member from Western Cape Bosman, maybe they did not brief him that there has been a campaign here ‘Cele must go’ and it has stopped.

I am told how it was stopped and all that.

They did not brief him because Steenhuisen made a call this afternoon.

Please brief the young man that you have stopped that campaign three weeks ago.

If you go to all social media it has been stopped and it is no longer there and you were briefed on how it was stopped, I know.
Please brief this young man.

He speaks about the gangs that have penetrated the police.

I will request everybody ...

[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 197 Mr M BARA: Point of order, House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Hon Bara?

Mr M BARA: Point of order, House Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): What’s your point of order?

Mr M BARA: I just want the Minister to withdraw calling an hon member a young man.
There is no young man in Parliament, House Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, the old man, House Chair.

I withdraw the young man, so the old man hon member Bosman.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): That’s not a point of order.

Mr M BARA: House Chairperson, can I call an order on the Minister.

The Minister must call a member an hon Member of the House and not an old man or young man.

That is the rule, House Chairperson, irrespective of who is addressing the House.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 198 The MINISTER OF POLICE: House Chairperson, I withdraw the old and the young, and I leave the hon members.

He raised the issue about the penetration of the police by gangs.

I will request everybody here who has been making this call about the police and the corruption in the Western Cape to go and read the judgement, especially read paragraph 70 of the judgement of the Judge.
It talks about the penetration of the police, the prosecution, the courts and judiciary.

So don’t come here and talk about one element of what the Judge has said because it suits you.

Read it and talk about; don’t just come and shout about something that you have heard when you are supposed to read.

It is important that you read.

Read paragraph 70 of Judge ...

[Inaudible.]

House Chairperson, I thought I wouldn’t say anything.
A certain hon member, I think it’s hon S du Toit, spoke about Operation Vulindlela of commander in chief, O R Tambo.

Some of us were fore runners of that thing.

Vulindlela had to be there because what we complain about today, the cross-border crime, was run by the government under apartheid.

Cross-border crime was run by government and I guess hon du Toit was part of that government.

He was part of the government that raided neighbouring countries.
This kidnapping thing is not new; we used to be kidnapped.

A place called Badplaas was the only UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 199 place that braaied human beings while people were busy enjoying beer under de Kock and the government of that time.
It should not be as if people learned from nowhere; they learned from the best — from apartheid — that you can kidnap and cross the border as they did crossing the border to Lesotho, Mozambique, Swaziland, and killed too many people — we know with the missing graves.

Maybe those people must tell us where the graves of these people are.

Maybe we made a mistake by letting them go; we should have tried them.
I guess we should have tried them so that they give us exactly what happened to the long list of people that we don’t know what happened to them.

They come here and complain about Vulindlela when it was a response to the criminal government that was killing us with impunity and crossing the border every day.

So, they must be humble and really go back and have some heart to understand and accept that what they did was bad when they killed everybody, inside and outside.

Thank you very much, House Chair.


[Applause.]

Debate concluded.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2022 Page: 200 The Council adjourned at 19:10.