Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698830056368.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 1 THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ The House met at 14:00.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
QUESTIONS TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT Question 7: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, the interministerial committee, IMC, on service delivery at district level is an important institutional mechanism to co-ordinate and aligns government’s intervention to support all our municipalities in addressing service delivery bottlenecks and key developmental challenges that continue to negatively impact on the quality of the lives of our ordinary people.
The President established the IMC in order to improve the overall performance and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 2 the state of local government in respect of key legislative mandates of governance, integrated development as well as service delivery.
The ongoing work that the interministerial committee is seized with constitutes the core component of the President’s Co-ordinating Council, PCC, agenda focusing on providing integrated and holistic support to all our municipalities.
Through the participation of premiers and SA Local Government Association, Salga, the PCC remains intergovernmental platform to direct, consolidate and provide rapid leadership responses to challenges facing our municipalities, including the overall financial sustainability and the implementation of revenue enhancement strategies within our municipalities.
Where existing and potential challenges have been identified, the IMC has the responsibility to ensure that rapid intervention plans are developed and implemented within the framework of a district-based delivery model that government has adopted.
More importantly, the IMC on service delivery at district level is tasked with political oversight and leadership in the implementation UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 3 of the district-based delivery model to foster co- ordination, coherence, collaboration and integration across all spheres of government in the development and execution of the common intergovernmental plan within a defined district municipal space.
In the main, these new models calls for better alignment on infrastructure plans, joined up implementation of sector plans as well as efficient and effective intergovernmental system to deploy our limited fiscal resources for better impact on the ground.

In the process of implementation, government is committed to broad-based community inclusion, participation and empowerment in a manner that deepen social cohesion and stability.
The partnership with the private sector and other nonstate sectors are underway to ensure that everyone’s contribution is brought to bear in building the country of our dreams together.

Embedded in the work of the IMC at district level is our focus on the integrity and resilience of governance system to give effect to the implementation of key UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 4 service delivery and development priorities.
This includes the implementation of effective financial management system and controls that ensure the long-term financial stability and sustainability of each and every municipality.
As part of the package of integrated support to improve the performance of municipalities, national and provincial Departments of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, National Treasury and Provincial Treasuries are supporting municipalities in the area of revenue collection to ensure that municipalities are able to meet their service delivery obligation.
I am advised that to date, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, has piloted and simplified revenue plan in 42 selected municipalities which is aimed at enhancing the municipal revenue management and debt collection system in local government.

The progress on these municipalities is closely monitored by the Cogta as well as National Treasury.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 5 The successful implementation of the revenue plan will obviously result in improved revenue management, reduced municipal consumer debt and protection of municipal revenue.

The objective of a simplified revenue plan project is to assist municipalities to review and improve the generic replicable model in the revenue plan.
Targeted support is being provided to distressed municipalities to ensure that critical areas of revenue enhancement are strengthened and institutionalised.
Some of the key measures include: ensuring revenue policies are in place in some of these municipalities; ensuring that clear credit control policies are implemented; putting in place accurate and credible billing system; ensuring that everyone who should be paying is actually paying property rates and services; monitoring of debtors accounts to ensure that those who must pay, meets their obligation on time; and implementing effective control systems to prevent revenue leakages, wastages and corrupt practices that depletes the money that has been already collected.
With these interventions in place, we are certain that there will be improvements on the integrated development UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 6 and delivery of services within our municipalities.

Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you Deputy President, before I give the supplementary question to hon Direko, members, please join me in welcoming the Naval College from Gordons Bay in the gallery up there ...

[Applause.]
[Applause.]

... as well as other members in the gallery; welcome to Parliament.

Ms D R DIREKO: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, the hon Deputy President, having listened to your detailed response to my question, I wish to commend our government for the adoption and implementation of the district co-ordination model, which I believe is going to assist the municipalities and also the six measures that you have just alluded to.
My follow up question is as follows: How are you going to ensure that the money that has been collected by municipalities is protected from maladministration, corrupt activities that may happen in the municipalities and mismanagement?
Also, in our country, we have some UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 7 people who are receiving income monthly, including those who are working for government and the councillors who aren’t paying services to the municipalities but are paying services to other institutions that they owe; what is our government message to such citizens in our country?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy President, before you respond.
Hon members, the Rule is that you ask a single supplementary question.

All the other stuff should be considered as background.

So, choose your best question and ask it.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker, and thanks for the follow up question and the support that we are getting with regards to this integrated model.

To ensure that revenue is collected and protected, we are putting credit control measures.
Now, those measures ... National Treasury and the Department of Cogta are working together with all our municipalities to ensure that payments that are made to suppliers are credible and that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 8 they have been checked so that we minimise wastages and corruption.
We are finding this working because all the projects that are implemented in that district are indicated on the dashboard; progress is reported monthly and payments are being reported so that we ensure that there is no money that is lost.

Of course, the problem that municipalities are experiencing is payments for services.

Our people are not paying for the services; probably we should use this platform to encourage all of our people to pay for services rendered.
Our people must pay for electricity and water they consume.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, in your initial response, you speak as though it is the first time we have local government in this country.

That is where the problem is because you may be misdiagnosing the problem.
The issue is not that systems are not there; the law and the systems are there, it is a matter of a lack of enforcement of existing laws and absence of consequent management where looting and corruption has taken place.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 9 I think it is important that we drill into that because we have over relied on the Auditor-General and have not listened to what the Auditor-General has said.
You have 14 municipalities that have received disclaimed or adverse findings without any intervention.
Deputy President, therefore, the fundamental question then becomes: Having built on section 139, which is supposed to respond to shortcomings and failures in municipalities, but we have seen it being used as a political tool as opposed to being one that deals with administrative problems, what plans does government have in place to make sure that we standardise and regularise the implementation of section 139 ...

[Inaudible.]

... [Time expired.]


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, thank you very much, I am not aware of this allegation that section 139 is being utilised as a political tool to settle scores.
What I am aware of is that before you implement section 139, there is an assessment that you make and it is not only the province that takes that step; the province can recommend UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 10 the implementation of section 139 but there should be concurrence with the National Council of Provinces.

SO, there is no way that one ... probably a province or an MEC in a province can utilise this instrument for political gains.
An assessment is made of the functioning of the municipality and if it is found that a municipality cannot deliver services because of a certain number of shortcomings, therefore, there is no other way besides introducing a curatorship or introducing an administrator to administer the municipality for a certain duration until we are satisfied that services have been brought back to our people.

So, I don’t concur that we use section 139 for political gains.
In the case of KwaZulu-Natal, where the hon member comes from, you’ll realise that the provincial government made an assessment on a number of municipalities.

Out of that assessment, decisions were made, either those that affected political leadership or affected managers.

Thank you very much.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 11 Mr V ZUNGULA: Deputy Speaker, it is fine, I will come in during my own question.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker, Deputy President – my counterpart because I am also a deputy president – [Applause.]

What is it actually that you are doing to assist women in small businesses?

I just imagine those women like in the district of Matatiele trying to sell but getting nothing.

I want something practical that you can tell me that you are doing to assist these people because I don’t see anything, please try to convince me.

Thank you.
Thank you.

IsiZulu: USEKELA SOMLOMO: Awusazami nokuwuxhumanisa nombuzo wokuqala baba?

English: Deputy President, please, if you can answer your fellow deputy president.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much; to try and bring the question closer to the first question, I think UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 12 this district-based model is trying to intervene in a very holistic way.
As much as we are focusing on service delivery, we are also focusing on the economic development of the entire district.

We are also focusing on infrastructure that will assist the economy in that district.

So, definitely, small and medium enterprises will be assisted as we try and stimulate economic development in that district.

Thank you very much.


Mr C BRINK: Thank you Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, several municipalities in North West and Limpopo have lost hundreds of millions rands in the collapse of VBS Bank.

Many of these municipalities are already struggling to collect revenue and to even deliver basic services.

To date, not a single municipal official or politician, be it from the EFF or the DA ...

[Interjections.]

... or the ANC ...


I apologise ... have been charged criminally for their conduct in the VBS raid; my question Deputy President is: What urgent steps is your government taking to ensure that at least civil action is taken to recover some of the money lost in the VBS raid?

Thank you.
Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 13 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, to my recollection; I am aware that there are current investigations that are going on with regard to the VBS matter.

Now, we will await the conclusion of those investigations and what I can say now is that we have institutions in country that are capable and are dealing with these matters.
Surely, where money has been stolen, I think the law must take its course; where corruption has taken place, the law must take its course, but we should give space to the law enforcement agencies to do their work without our interference.

So, I assure you that this matter is being investigated and at the right time, the law enforcement agencies are going to make their own pronouncement.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]


Question 8: The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we now move to Question 8, which has been asked by hon Steenhuisen.

He has deferred to hon G G Hill Lewis to take the Supplementary Question.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 14 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, our government is working tirelessly to address the concerns that were raised by the rating agencies which include slow economic growth, sustainability of our state-owned enterprises, SOEs, and the rising government debt.

Our collective effort must help the country not only to mitigate the risk of downgrades, but also to return it to a healthy investment rating.
It is in our interest as a country to unite in championing sustainable efforts to collectively address the concerns that are raised by these rating agencies.

With clear focus and clear determination, it is possible to turn the tide.

The world still believes in South Africa, and this interest was expressed when team-SA led by Minister Ntshaveni engaged with about 300 investors at the 2019 Nordic-African Business Association Summit that was held the past week in Oslo.
Together with the Nordic countries, we are looking into areas of overlapping interest, possibilities of co- operation in the blue economy, smart cities and advancing the digital skills for our young people.

As government, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 15 we continue to advance our domestic efforts towards creating enabling environment for taking up these investments.
In the short term, we need to speed up the implementation of the economic stimulus and recovery plan which outlines a range of measures to ignite activity and build investor confidence.

We also continue to expedite the implementation of the 2018 Job Summit commitments, particularly on areas where businesses identified inhibitors to investment.

Business is committed to working with government in finding lasting solutions in the labour market to address crisis of job losses in the entire country.
Under the leadership of the President, monthly meetings are being held with business and labour to monitor progress on the implementation of Job Summit commitments by all our social partners.

In these engagements, government has committed to identifying and dealing with legislative and policy inhibitors and improving the ease of doing business.

We UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 16 are committed to ensure that we make it easy to do business in this country.
The recently appointed Presidential Economic Advisory Council, PEAC, will play the much needed role of coordinating all these efforts and ensuring that all the necessary elements of sustainable economic recovery are put in place.

Our government continues to strengthen partnership with social partners, in particular, our on-going engagement with the private sector are focused on ensuring that the Investment Conference commitments made in the past year are implemented.
We are encouraged by the reports that substantial investment projects that were pledged last year in the Investment Conference have entered the implementation phase.

We call on all stakeholders to continue with their support at the 2nd Investment Conference that would be held this year in November.

This is a further opportunity to partner in advancing South Africa’s Investment Book towards a five-year target investment of R1,2 trillion.
Through this Public-Private Growth Initiative, PPGI, our UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 17 country will see growth in investment that will turn the economy around.

South Africa’s participation in the African Continental Free Trade will promote and provide opportunities for locally manufactured exports in the continent, thereby expanding further investment opportunities in the country.
Deputy Speaker, the establishment of the R100 billion Infrastructure Fund is another initiative of the Sixth Administration that is aimed at improving our fixed capital investment.

The other pillars include interventions to ease the cost of doing business, expanding the number of small businesses through the revitalisation of our township and rural economies, as well as macro economic reform and increase competition.
Some of the immediate interventions include: Exploring alternative options to lower the electricity prices and eliminate potential load shedding.

Also, increase efficiency and reduce port costs to improve South Africa’s global trade; the economic regulation of Transport Bill which will be presented to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 18 Cabinet soon, will also assist.

A review of the basic fuel price is being considered as part of a broader review of administered prices.
In the bid to boost tourism, 82 countries will now receive visa wavers as part of South Africa’s visa regime waiver.

A policy directive that will guide licensing of broadband spectrum has been issued already.

Trade measures to safeguard key agricultural and other sectors, and protect local jobs will be introduced.

Government’s plan to revitalise industrial parks is in progress and three new parks have already been launched in 2019.
Also, a new Special Economic Zone, SEZ, has been proposed for designation in Bojanala in North West Province.

Government has adopted the Khawuleza District Model that we were speaking about just now, which is beginning to play a crucial role in supporting local economic drivers at district level.

Ultimately, this will lead to job creation.


Deputy Speaker, in the advancement of our developmental mandate, steps are already being taken to improve the financial and operational sustainability of our SOEs, as well as improving governance challenges.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 19 The restructuring of SOEs is expected to bring the much needed stability that will enable the entities to recapitalise and reduce the need for bailouts and guarantees from time to time from government.

For example, the Spatial Appropriation Bill to provide additional financial support to Eskom for the current and the next financial year was recently passed.
This will assist in keeping Eskom afloat, while work of restructuring Eskom is underway.

With regards to the need of reducing the debt, government has identified several possible fiscal interventions to narrow the budget deficit in an environment of uncertain economic growth.

Some of these measures include the expenditure reprioritisation; implementation of austerity measures; curbing wastages and reducing the Wage Bill.
The road ahead in getting our economy to grow will not be an easy one, but our collective will to triumph is stronger and more resilient.

I’m sure we will turn the corner.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 20 Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Through you Deputy Speaker, let me thank the Deputy President for that fulsome reply.
Deputy President, the President spoke in London on Monday at the FT Africa Summit and he was asked about the plan introduced by your colleague, the Minister of Finance, a stimulus package to get the economy growing.

He said and I quote: That he endorses every single one of the proposals made in that plan, including a Bill on Cutting Red Tape introduced by my colleague from the DA, hon Kruger.
Now, Deputy President, there is a perception that there is some disparity between you and the President on your agreement about the direction the economic has to take in our country.
So, I thought that I would give you this opportunity today to add your comments to the fulsome endorsements of the President to Minister Mboweni’s plan and ask whether you too would add your endorsements to the President’s words, and also, whether you would give us some specific commitments for when the proposals made in that plan would be implemented.

Thank you very much.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 21 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am not aware of any differences in terms of opinion and in terms of the way we see the road ahead between me and the President.

The fact of the matter is that, all the discussion that you see around emanated from the Minister of Finance.

First of all, the discussions are discussed in the Ruling Party where I sit and they are also discussed in Cabinet where I sit.
Now, what you see out there in the public domain, it’s a product of a collective discussion within the party and within the Cabinet.

So, I’m not working as an individual, but I work within a collective.

So, what you see there it’s a product of a collective.

I have also reassured the country from time to time that I support the President.

Also, I have listened to the President on what he is talking about in KwaZulu-Natal and I supported it, because it’s not his plan but that of a governing party.
Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Mr E M BUTHELEZI: Through you Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, in light of the recent rolling blackouts UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 22 endorsement by Eskom of further maintenance that will be scheduled throughout the summer months and the effects and cost that this will have on the economy at large would affect the perception for our country and certainly does not instill investor confidence.
Does the Deputy President believe in the Finance Minister’s plan, in particular, in the unbundling of Eskom and preservation of part of the ailing state of entities that would be to ensure our country’s protection on us of any future downgrade?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I do.

I do believe in that process of restructuring Eskom.

So, in short, I believe in that plan.

Yes, I do, I do.

Mr B S MADLINGOZI: Deputy President, rating agencies are not ideologically neutral.
There are basic ideological script that they adhere to which they use against government.

The most pressing needs in this country right now are for rapid redistribution of wealth and opportunities.

The rating agencies will not take kindly to that.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 23 Now, will your government do what is necessary to lift our people out of poverty, like addressing the issue of distributing the land without compensation, or will you listen more to what the ratings have to say?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, rating agencies are external bodies ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy President, please give me just a moment.
Hon Mantashe, you are talking.

Can you take your seat, please.

Please settle down.

Do settle down, sir.

Deputy President, you can carry on answering.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, rating agencies are external bodies that would assess the country and give their opinion on their findings.

Unfortunately, those who want invest their money in this country will have to take those opinions very serious.

So, you can ignore the advice and the opinion of rating agencies at your own peril.
But it’s important to note them and respond accordingly.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 24 For instance, rating agencies spoke about our state-owned enterprises and it’s a fact that our state-owned enterprises are not in a very stable condition.

So, we must respond to that in order to keep track and make them better.

Also, they have complained about the rising government debt which is the money that we have borrowed.

Therefore, we must respond to that.


The way to do that is that we must cut our coat according to our size, that means that we must slim down and make sure that we reprioritise, curb wastages and look at all areas where we think we can bring down expenditure.

In so doing, we would be responding to that problem.

But again, for us to ensure that our economy is put on the right path, there are certain fundamental things that we must do.
It’s important to continue with our skills programme and our education programmes to ensure that we skill more and more of our people, so that they can be absorbed in the economy.

There’s a correlation that has been found that where there’s poverty, where poverty is high, unemployment is high and educational outcomes are low.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 25 Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Speaker, I am standing on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order?

Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Speaker, on Rule 142(8), reply to supplementary question is limited to two minutes.

Now, we know we have three hours, and we will never get through all the question if the Deputy President stick to one supplementary question.

Can you just rule on the Rules, please?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I am asked to read the Rules for you and usually, I don’t do this because you should know the Rules.
The provisions of sub-Rules 1,2,3 and 8 do not apply to Questions to the Deputy President.

You can proceed hon member.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Madlingozi, I ‘m trying to say that we must tackle our educational outcomes, we must forge ahead with our skills development programme and we must tackle unemployment in order to tackle poverty.
So, those are issues that are on our radar as a country, in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 26 order for us to get the economy on the right track.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Mr W M THRING: Through you Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, rating agencies evaluate the country’s economic and political environment to determine a respective credit rating which gives investors insight into the level of risk associated with investing in that particular country.
Credit rating downgrades would make it more expensive for the government to borrow money, increase debt service and cost, and cause the rand to depreciate in driving out inflation, thereby also increasing our tax burden.
With the current load shedding set to significantly damage the economic growth and a number of economic policy papers floating about from the Finance Minister’s towards an economic strategy to the President’s economic stimulus recovery plan, to long standing and sometimes forgotten National Development Plan.
Has the Finance Minister’s economic recovery plan been accepted by all within the Ruling Party including its UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 27 alliances, and when can the citizens of South Africa hope to see the roll-out of the plan?

Thank you.

[Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, about the recovery plan, the Minister of Finance is doing the final touches.

He has received a lot of inputs from the public.


Where necessary, these inputs will be integrated, and the final strategy will be published.

I am sure that the Minister has consulted far enough.

Economic strategy is not something that is cast in stone; it will always be improved as we go.

But somewhere we should agree and say, this is what we agreed upon.

Let’s steam ahead.

So, that will happen.


But when it comes to the current load shedding, on behalf of government, I think that we must apologise to all businesses and students that could not write, for the inconvenience that was caused.

We are looking at the problem that has affected Eskom.

We want to assure South Africans that this problem will be attended to and things will come back to normality.
Of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 28 course, it must be stated, in order for the country to know that the capacity of our country that stood at 47 000 megawatt in yester years, but now it has reduced to almost 35 megawatt.

Because of the aging fleets, there are number of units that are now out of operation, because these fleets or power stations are old.

For instance, the Hendrina power station.


Out of six units that should be operational and functioning, only two units are working.

The rest have reached their lifespan.

That accounts for a number of power stations that are now old.

We welcome the introduction of the Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, by the Minister of Mineral and Energy.

We take it that it’s a right step in the right direction that will inform the energy mix for the future of this country.
Of course, in the current situation we must gradually open up more and more space for independent power producers to augment the current shortages, and I’m sure the country will be stable.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 29 Question 9: The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We now move to Question 9, asked by hon Meshoe.

Deputy President!

Sorry, before you proceed: I have been informed that hon Swart will take the supplementary question.

Thanks.
Thanks.

Go ahead.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, nation-building and social cohesion are key pillars of social progress and inclusive economic prosperity.

A nation bound by deep sense of cohesiveness, patriotism and national pride is built on the foundations of a shared purpose and common goals.

It is a nation defined by a common set of positive moral norms and values that guide our actions, our behaviours and our interactions in society.
The Moral Regeneration Movement, MRM, remains a crucial platform to galvanise and mobilise our society to advance the promotion of positive values and ethical conduct in a manner that confronts deep-seated challenges of moral decay within our communities.
The sustained and heinous attack on women is a clear indication that our moral compass as a nation is UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 30 dangerously out of tune with our common values of compassion, care, human dignity and of ubuntu.

The inquiry about the funding of the Moral Regeneration Movement is accompanied by the necessary reminder of ensuring that we effectively utilise such forums towards moral and ethical renewal and transformation of our society.
This renewal also require that all citizens, young and old, take on their rightful place and rightful roles in the war of redefining and reaffirming ourselves as moral being and as citizens living out values that are compatible with our democratic South Africa.

Currently, the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture is the only government department which provides financial support to the Moral Regeneration Movement.

The financial support is R12 million for three years.
That means, it is just over R4 million per annum.

All support to the Moral Regeneration Movement is towards shaping the moral fibre of our society, thereby UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 31 contributing to nation-building.

A civil society driven movement that is supported by government, the Moral Regeneration Movement has been able to achieve a number of successful milestones with greater support from the state and nonstate role-players.
Some of the milestones that have been achieved include the establishment of structures of Moral Regeneration Movement in provinces, the development and adoption of the Charter of Positive Values, mainstreaming of moral regeneration initiatives, with respect to people in conflict with the law, in partnership with the Department of Correctional Services, honouring domestic workers as for their role as pillars of homes, families and with society.
The Charter of Election Ethics focuses on values and ethics of general election by voters, those voted for and administering elections.
Antifemicide campaign, in partnership with the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture, SA Police Service, Department of Social Development and the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is focusing on community UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 32 engagement with respect to measures that can be taken to address femicide and child abuse.
As government we continue to support the work of the Moral Regeneration Movement, including addressing some of the capacity constrains that the board has raised during our interactions.

We have also agreed on structured collaboration with key national departments, provinces and municipalities, to ensure a broad-based multistakeholder participation in national moral regeneration programme.
This will require the existence of vibrant moral regeneration movement’s clutches at local levels to bring communities together to promote moral renewal, ethical conduct and coercive communities.

It is the responsibility of all South Africans, particularly all of us seated here, to be agents of the work that is being led by the Moral Regeneration Movement and other similar organisations.
The Charter of Positive values must feature prominently in the programme of action of government, including in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 33 our schools and in all public facilities.

To further on this work, next month, my office, in partnership with the national Department of Sport, Arts and Culture and the Moral Regeneration Movement, will convene a national consultative session to evaluate of the Moral Regeneration Movement.
More is needed from all of us as social partners to step up in our nation-building efforts.

In this regard, we engage the private sector to solicit increased financial contribution and participation in this nation-building effort.

We need to wage a war on violence that threatens to undo the gains that we have made towards ensuring the safety of women, youth and all those who live and work in our country.

Thank you very much.


Mr S N SWART: Hon Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, thank you for your response.

It is very clear from your response that there is insufficient funding and insufficient capacity for the Moral Regeneration Movement.

This is at a time when high levels of drugs and alcohol abuse, horrendous murders and rapes, fraud and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 34 corruption and the abuse of women and children that you refer to are occurring.
While the ACDP appreciate that other partners contribute to the movement and that it is civil-society driven, it is clear as you indicated that far more needs to be done.

Everyone in this House and every citizen needs to accept responsibility for moral regeneration and to restore the country’s moral foundation.

There is a desperate need for this, as you indicated and as evidenced by the recently expressed outrage against gender-based violence.
Given this and the insufficient funding, the lack of capacity and the fact that you, Deputy President, will be meeting with the Moral Regeneration Movement: Would you not agree that it is important to broaden the movement to reach and influence other NGOs and to incorporate churches that in particular can play a key role in strengthening the moral fabric of our nation and make South Africa a better place for all of us to live in.
We also believe, from the ACDP’s side, that the proposed comprehensive sexuality education to young children may UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 35 undermine healthy moral values.

But, just on the issue of churches involving faith-based organisation, I would like to hear your comments.

Thank you, Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, I think I concur with the hon member on the point that we should broaden our scope and participation.
Of course, we are looking more and more on business because we are looking at financial contribution to do all these activities.

So, churches as custodians of moral values will be central.

NGOs, I think all of us must make this a societal enterprise.

All of us must stand up.

Of course, the structures that will be co-ordinated through the MRM might not be sufficient.

We need to galvanise and mobilise society so that we build this nation.
Some of the things that were happening in the past days were appalling, we regrettable and it is an indication of a nation that is regressing, which all of us must be concerned about.

So, we are going to do enough.

We are very encouraged about the comments and the debate that UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 36 was held in this House and all your speeches about gender-based violence.

I think the country has heard.


If we can continue from time to time, as this House, to focus on such topics that affect the moral compass of this country, it will be very helpful to take this country forward.

Thank you very much.


Mr M TSHWAKU: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, there is a prevailing sense in the society that the country has lost its moral compass and that we have allowed ourselves to be corrupted by the love of money attained often through elicit means, and that we occupy positions in government for only selfish reasons.
Do you think of the fact that the President of the country was financed by big capital to ascend to his current position takes us back a mile in terms of ensuring that those who lead us do so with utmost integrity?

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 37 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I will agree with you that, as a country, there are indications – there are signs – that our nation-building effort is being threatened, especially if you look at these violent service deliver service deliver protests, these gender-based violence where our women and children feel threatened in a society that has just attained its freedom.

That should worry us.


We must do everything in our power to ensure that we avoid moral decay.

We must do everything in our power to avoid a reversal of the gains that we have made since 1994, as a country.

Of course, if is not easy.

A country that is free is open up to a number of threats along the way, but united as a country, we can stand firm.

We can deepen our democracy and ensure that everyone who lives in this country feels free, enjoys the freedoms that are enshrined in our Constitution.
The matter of the President – the finances that he has been supported with, is a matter of the ANC ...

[Interjections.]

... because he was contesting as the President of the ANC.

So, it is the matter of the ANC.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 38 Mr M TSHWAKU: But, it was immoral!

It is immoral!

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But the President stood here and answered this question that those who donated the money did nothing wrong.
[Interjections.]

It is a clear donation.

There is no element of corruption in between.

[Interjections.]

The money was not stolen; it was donated!

[Interjection.]

It was donated!

[Applause.]

[Interjections.]

But, the ANC itself, as the ruling party which the President represents ...

[Interjections.]

... must define its own policies about fund raising and contesting for positions.

That the ANC will do!

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon N S Buthelezi!


Mr M TSHWAKU: Sorry, Deputy Speaker: Can I rise on the point of order?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order?

Mr M TSHWAKU: I think that my question is not answered properly ...

[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 39 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member!

No!

IsiXhosa: Mnu M TSHWAKU: ... kuba bendibuza ukuba ingaba kulungile kusini na ukuba kunikelwe ngala mali?

[Uwelewele.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No!


Hon member, it is not your call to do that.

Hon member, take your seat.

You can’t have a second bite; only one bite!

[Laughter.]

Hon N S Shenge!

Yeah, go ahead ma’m!

Ms Z NKOMO: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, what initiative has the Moral Regeneration Movement taken to contribute in addressing the issue of violence against women and children as part of restoring the moral fibre of our society?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it is quite clear that firstly we need to structure ourselves very well as the Moral Regeneration Movement.

We must expand our scope, include a number of NGOs and churches, but at the centre of structuring ourselves, we must be able to harness the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 40 necessary capacity to mobilise society because this is a human action.

This is about the mindset of a nation.


The only way – the only tool that we have – is to ensure that we have got enough legislative frameworks to protect women and children.

But again, you can’t rely on a system; you must mobilise and you must talk to your society.

So, the Moral Regeneration Movement requires a lot of voices to communicate a message.

Hence, I am saying I was very happy when this House debated gender-based violence because there were a number of voices talking about one matter.
In that way, if we can replicate ourselves in society, mobilise our people and show that women are respect, you will understand exactly where this matter stems from.

[Applause.]

This matter stems from the way girl-children are treated right at home.

[Applause.]

As long as we can understand that the girl-child is the same as the boy-child.

There is no difference; they must be treated the same.

They must be given equal opportunities.


If society can UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 41 understand that these children are the same, they must be treated the same.

We must also deal with some of our stereotype as a nation.

There are certain stereotypes that girl-children must do this and boy-children must do that.

We must stand up against those stereotypes because down the line they become a problem.

They become a problem!


In every sector of our lives, women are being segregated.

It stems from the household where they grow up.

So, as a society, we must mobilise ourselves and fight these stereotypes and see women as equals in whatever endeavours in our lives.

Women are equal human beings.

[Applause.]

Thank you very much.


Ms Z MAJOZI: Deputy Speaker, the hon Deputy President, firstly can we actually explain what the Moral Regeneration Movement is, because it is an initiative that networks people for moral regeneration.

You can’t network people as a movement.

Instead, you must actually touch people’s lives.


You must actually be there on the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 42 ground and touch people’s lives in order for you to bring back the moral regeneration.

Systematic corruption by your very own comrades who are supposed to be leaders in society and who have sworn to obey the law and their oath of office simply don’t care to break the law.

This has sent a clear message to South Africans that it is okay to do so.
It has become okay to steal public funds/money.

It is okay to create a generation of tenderpreneurs instead of entrepreneurs.

Why should any department or this government pay for any movement - so you call it – that does not move us into moral regeneration but move us into furthermore moral decay?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I didn’t hear the question, but I will try and ...

[Interjections.]

It was a statement!


But, the statement seeks to say that the Moral Regeneration Movement is not able to mobilise society and people; shortly saying it does not have the necessary capacity to do its work.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 43 We have explained ourselves that the work of the Moral Regeneration Movement belongs to all of us.
We can’t take this very important nation-building instrument and leave it to a movement – a Moral Regeneration Movement – and we become spectators ourselves.

You must understand that to change and to foster a culture of good moral values needs you, needs your friend next to you and needs all of us as a country.

Now, this is just a catalyst to mobilise, to ensure that everyone becomes part.

Standing here, I am speaking on behalf of the Moral Regeneration Movement.
I am mobilising you to stand up and fight for positive values.

All that seeks to take us back; we must fight it wherever we are.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Question 10: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, we fully agree with the statement raised by the member that we have more young women graduates from our institutions of higher learning but few of them are being absorbed into the labour force.
According to the council of higher education’s vital statistics, 59 487 women graduates with UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 44 degrees from public universities in 2017 have graduated, compared to 36 627 men.

A similar trend is evident considering students who graduated with diplomas and certificate qualifications.
Yet women remain the most affected by unemployment in comparison to men and this has consistently been shown by the quarterly labour survey conducted by Statistics South Africa since 2011.

This is a serious concern.

The systematic exclusion of women and workplace discriminatory practices which are rooted in patriarchal culture, social systems of male dominance and gender stereotypes that undermines the role and standing of women in society.
These social norms and gender stereotypes tend to be replicated in recruitment and selection processes for employment.

In a non-racial, non-sexist democratic and equal society, this injustice cannot be allowed to continue.
As part of the broader social transformation agenda, the empowerment of women across all facets of life experience is meant to eliminate all statural and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 45 social barriers that prevent women from accessing equal opportunities as men including employment opportunities.
There is no doubt that transforming the world of work for women and ensuring their inclusion into economic growth and mainstream economic activities requires the elimination of discriminatory laws, policies, practices and social norms.

To achieve this, there should be concerted effort to implement legislative and policy interventions to address women discrimination and advance gender equality.
Since 1994, government adopted different equality and other empowering laws including policies and chatters which have quotas and targets for equity.

For instance, among others we now have the Employment Equity Act of 1998 and its amendments and the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act of 2003 and its amendments.
South Africa has also adopted legislative directive to embrace a new and broader agenda for equal employment opportunities for women in an attempt to improve women standing in the workplace.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 46 The Employment Equity Act has been further amended to include the principle of equal pay, equal value and for equal work in order to bridge the wage gap between men and women.
If implemented correctly, these anti discriminatory directives will allow women to have a chance to enter the workplace in an equal manner, not only as a form of empowerment for women but also to contribute equally to economic growth and capacity building within the country, consequently giving women equal opportunities that would enhance their social and economic standing.
Relevant constitutional institutions are working tirelessly to ensure that women are represented in various facets of life including educational institutions and the labour market.

The commission for gender equality plays a crucial role in monitoring and evaluating policies and practices of organisations and institutions both in the public and private sector across society to promote gender equality.
From time to time the commission makes recommendations aimed at further advancing gender equality in our society.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 47 Another important intervention is through the commission for employment equity which monitors and intervenes to address disparities in the labour market.

The commissions recently released the nineteenth annual report which highlighted the need to increase the employment and representation of women.
It is also looking deeply at the issue of workplace targets to employers.

Indications are that, although progress is slow, these efforts and all these legislative frameworks that are put in place, all these efforts are starting to bear some positive fruits.

For instance, the commission’s report of employment equity shows that the representation of women in top management positions has increased from 13,7% from 2002 to 23,5% in 2018, a significant improvement.
Representation of women in senior management positions increased from 21,6% in 2002 to 34,5 in 2018.

Government is a key contributor to this positive trend as evident in the employment equity report for the year 2018.

Women are becoming increasingly represented in management positions within government.

With 33% occupying top management positions in government and 39% UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 48 occupying senior management positions.
We need to see these similar trends in the private sector.

The private sector must implement targeted training, recruitment and mentorship programs that create pathways for women to enter the labour market and gain promotions to leadership positions within their companies.

We have an obligation to target the inequalities and gaps related to labour force participation by women.

We call on all the employers across all sectors in the country to intensify efforts to engender equality in our society.
As a country let us continue in our efforts of educating our people, more emphasis on women, training and skilling our people, more emphasis should be placed on women especially the young ones to respond to the new opportunities in the changing world of work.

Thank you very much Speaker.

Ms A S HLONGO: Deputy President, thank you for the answer.

With the Employment Equity Act of 1998 in place, we are still faced with a gap between white women and black women especially in the private sector.
What is UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 49 government doing to end this and again Deputy President, how is government going to lobby for youth opportunities in terms of business opportunities with the public and private sector to close gaps of unemployment amongst the youth of the country?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well your last question, to close the gap as government we must continue to improve our education outcomes to ensure that our young people are at school, they acquire the necessary qualifications, they acquire the necessary skills so that their chances of being absorbed in the labour force are improved.

Of course as government we have done our part as you can see by the statistics that I’ve read that more and more women have gained promotions.
They are now in senior positions in government.

We are almost now standing at 39% which is a very remarkable improvement.

The private sector is lagging behind and there is an Act in place that compels all of us to work towards equity.

So, somewhere it is the responsibility of this House when you do your oversight because you cannot just do your UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 50 oversight on government.

I’m sure you also visit companies.


One of the things that you must look at is whether they comply in terms the Employment Equity Act.

The Act also allows for people with disability that a certain quota should be absorbed in the labour force.

So, it is our responsibility to ensure that we encourage the public sector to also improve in this sector.
Now, in terms of the law that we have passed as the House, there should be no disparity in terms of salaries for people doing the same work, not unless there is a difference in terms of the job description.

But, if the job description is the same, the law compels that these people must earn the same salary.

I’m aware that, that is still happening but not in government.
In government when we advertise a post, if we are looking for a chief director, the chief director will earn a certain amount of money whether it’s male or female because the post will stipulate the salary but we don’t advertise a post in government and say we are looking for a woman.

No, we must look as people are being interviewed and all that, at a certain point, preference is given to a woman but as you advertise a post you are inviting everyone to apply.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 51 But, accordingly whoever gets appointed as a chief director or as a director irregardless of him being a man or a woman, they will earn the same salary.

Thank you very much.

Mr L MPHITHI: Hon deputy President, after the appointment of Cabinet shortly after the elections, the Cabinet was hailed for being a gender equal Cabinet boasting a 50/50 gender split.
Our Constitution states that Cabinet consists of the President and the Deputy President meaning that there is no 50/50 gender split as previously celebrated by the President.

When you consider this Deputy President, are you prepared to step aside to achieve a 50/50 gender split which is the immediate step that needs to be taken to correct the disparities within Cabinet?
Also, are you prepared to follow the example set by David Makhura in Gauteng by ensuring that there was a 50/50 gender split within his own Cabinet?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Maybe next time and I don’t know why you choose me?

You’re not choosing hon Mantashe to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 52 step down and make way for a woman, why choose me?
[Laughter] Well, it’s a point noted that we are not 50/50, it’s because of me and the President because we are both men but Ministers are 50/50.

It’s only the Deputy President and the President that are dislodging the 50/50.

You’ve got a point.

Maybe I’ll consider stepping down next time not now.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members can I request that we don’t attempt to shout down a question that we don’t like, please?
Just be democratic, that’s all I’m asking you to do, to be democratic you’ll expect the same thing when you are asking a question, you won’t want to be screamed down right?

Agreed?

Ms M E SUKERS: Deputy President, only 18% of women receive full pay during maternity leave, nearly a third receive less than 50% of their pay and a shocking 40% receive no compensation at all.
Being aware of the salary ranges and required maternity provision allows people to receive the needed information in order to be paid fairly UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 53 and equally.

Would government consider requiring companies to release data on their male and female pay ratios to the public and thus create pressure to create fairer conditions?

If not Deputy President, what stands in the government’s way to do so?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don’t think there is any problem in releasing that data because as government I don’t think we have got anything to hide.

That data can be released.

I will follow up that question to ensure that we release this, if we want certain people to act in a particular way as government, we must lead the way ourselves.
So, there’s nothing to hide, I’m not aware that when women go on maternity leave, they are paid for certain number of days and certain number of days are not paid, I’m not aware of that.

It’s probably something that we will look at.

Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You want to have a second bite, how?

No, please man.

Hold on.


Deputy President, she’s going to ask you whether you are going to encourage the private sector to do so, you have answered that question but I want you to repeat and add to your answer.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 54 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, the Deputy Speaker is helping me.
We’ll encourage the private sector to do so as government of course it’s also our responsibility as Parliament to encourage the private sector to release that data but as government we will lead the way.

Thank you very much.

Ms T L MARAWU: Deputy President, your response is not convincing at all in terms of improvement on statistics.

It cannot be right or allowed where by the Act was passed in 1998 then we are standing at 23,5% and you cite it as an improvement, what about the 72,5%?
If there is no recourse for non implementers and the word encourage, you can go out and encourage meaning if they don’t want to implement the Employment Equity Act, it will never be implemented.

So, what are the recourses for those that are not implementing what is entailed in the Act?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I’ve only noted the progress that has been made since 2002-2018 and I’m saying within that time frame, there has been an improvement which is remarkable and we commend that improvement.

Of course UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 55 it’s not satisfactory, we are not there yet as government, we must improve and we are also calling for the private sector which is lagging behind to also catch up.
I’m aware that we have not reached the acceptable level in terms of equity but there is progress.

Thank you very much.

Question 11: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, the development and promotion of productive economic activities in townships and rural villages are at the heart of the government’s efforts to advance economic inclusion, local empowerment, and job creation.
We need to transform our townships and villages from traditionally being apartheid-designed sources of cheap labour and consumption into thriving productive investment and economic hubs.

The real and meaningful transformation will occur when enterprise development and participation opportunities are deliberately created to benefit local communities living in these townships and villages.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 56 In order to reverse the legacy of the apartheid space economy, the government has a responsibility to implement a set of policies and regulatory interventions to direct infrastructure investment as well as financial, technical, and market access facilitation that benefits enterprises that are located in townships and villages.
There is no doubt that economic activities in townships and rural areas should be supported by the effective implementation of regulations and municipal bylaws consistent with our constitutional and legal framework.

All businesses, whether local or foreign-owned, must be subjected to applicable regulations and bylaws.

Effective economic regulation in the township and rural areas will assist in curbing and minimising the problem of counterfeit goods that are sold in our country through illegal businesses.
More importantly, the impact of regulation must result in a fair and competitive environment for enterprises that are operating in the township and rural villages to prevent the abuse of dominance by few monopolies.

We have UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 57 to find ways to open up markets so that new enterprises can compete fairly.
The Competition Amendment Act promulgated this year focuses on opening markets where concentration and the behaviour of dominant firms are harmful to the creation of jobs and the growth of small and medium businesses in all sectors across the economy.

Although it is imperative to regulate the microeconomy, regulation alone is not a total solution to address the challenges of economic exclusion and structural barriers of entry into the mainstream economy for the township and rural enterprises.
Regulations must be accompanied by extensive enterprise development programmes that are supported by government and the private sector to develop skills, and integrate small businesses in townships and villages into major procurement value chains in government and private sector markets.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 58 With this realisation, the government is implementing various programmes and targeted policies to intervene so that it stimulates and supports the development of township and rural enterprises.
Implementing a special dispensation or set-asides in the awarding of medium-, and long-term contracts to small businesses, co-operatives as well as township and village enterprises to allow for a period of incubation and other support to help reduce failure rates is one important thing that we must do.
Establishing a township and village economy fund to support the productive activities and the development of industrial parks, business centres and incubation centres in those areas is another thing that the government must pursue.
The government must also pursue formalising township and village-based enterprises through an active campaign by provincial and local governments that promote the benefits of formalisation, addressing illegal trading through better regulation and implementation of bylaws by UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 59 municipalities, increasing the incubation network in rural areas and townships as part of government’s commitment to grow rural and township enterprises.
We must continue to invest in key infrastructure and technology innovations to facilitate the ease of doing business in our townships and rural villages.

Thank you very much House Chairperson.

[Applause.]

Mr V ZUNGULA: Chairperson, Mr Deputy President, the townships and villages comprise of the poorest, marginalised and unemployed people in the country.

With our poor education system, the people in these areas are unable to have access to economic opportunities, particularly in the formal economy.
Because of the lack of economic participation, social ills and a heavy reliance on social grants become the order of the day.

Their only hope becomes the informal economy which has been expropriated from them.

The informal economy all over the continent is reserved for the locals in any country.

Countries with the fastest growing economies in Africa have specific legislation to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 60 protect microeconomy for its citizens.
For example, Ghana has an 8,8 GDP growth in 2019, for Ethiopia, it is 7,7% and in both these countries, the microeconomy is reserved for its citizens.

Therefore, the question to you is that, with big businesses such as Pick and Pay, Usave, Shoprite, that have now ventured into the township economy that is already dominated by foreign nationals, how are the locals going to benefit from the township economy if there is no legislation to protect them?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: House Chairperson, like we have said that, one very important thing that must happen is that, first of all, there should be legislation that will enforce registration of any business that is happening in a township or village.

There should be bylaws that are promulgated by all our municipalities around small businesses that are trading in the jurisdiction of a municipality.
That will give certainty – first of all – of who is doing business in the municipality, in the township.

Now, when UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 61 you know who is doing business in the township, in the municipality, you are then able to register all those businesses because some of these businesses require support from the government on how to run their businesses, that is why we speak of incubation, some businesses must be supported to grow.
Now, the second step, depending on what type of businesses, the government must assist to find markets because the government itself is a market.

We are using bricks every day to build houses; we are feeding our children; we are feeding our patients, and we are buying goods and services on a daily basis as government.

So, we can stand as the first market that can be available to small, medium enterprises as long as they are registered and supported.
But of course, the Competition Act will also allow government, provinces and municipalities to deal with monopoly.

All the items that are being sold in a mall in a township, space must be deliberately opened for small, medium enterprises to also to sell their goods whether it is vegetables, a Shoprite in a township must buy the vegetables as long as these UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 62 vegetables will meet a certain standard.
Of course, people must eat food that is acceptable therefore it is the role of government to ensure that these small, macro and medium enterprises, SMMEs, produce products that are up to a standard that they can be certified and be consumed in the market.

So that is our role, that the first fundamental question that must be addressed is that, who is trading?

Who is this SMME?

Where?


You will then be in a position to support that SMME through infrastructure if there is an industrial park in that township or that village.

Now, the government is going to dedicate itself, its energy and time to support small, medium enterprises in our townships, in our villages.

That is why, as the government, we have a department entirely focused on small businesses.
There is a Minister of Small Business Development to support and we are thinking of creating a fund that will support these small and medium enterprises.

They must trade.

We have got an Act that would discourage monopoly, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 63 will open space for these small, medium enterprises also to trade.
Thank you very much Mr S N BUTHELEZI: House Chairperson, Deputy President ... IsiZulu: ... nsukuzonke osomabhizinisi abancane bayawa ngenxa yokungatholi ukwesekwa, kulahleke imisebenzi kubantu basemakhaya ikakhulukazi.

English: This is not because of a lack of business training but a lack of a safety net to keel these businesses through their first-second year.
IsiZulu: Umbuzo uthi, Usekela Ngqongqoshe luyaweseka yini umbono wokukhuthaza uHulumeni basekhaya, omasipala, ukuba bashaya imitheshwanyana ezolekelela osomabhizinisi abancane ukuze bekwazi ukusimama ikakhulukazi eminyakeni yokuqala, eyesibili neyesithathu ... English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 64 ... to ensure that they break even and make a profit.
For an example, if electricity is cited as a financial risk for particular small, medium business viability, that the local municipality must intervene and assist that SMME with the electricity subsidy so that this business takes off.

Thank you.

IsiZulu: USEKELA MONGAMELI: Ngiyabonga, ngithanda ukusho ukuthi siyakweseka ukuxhaswa kwamabhizinisi amancane, osomabhizinisi abasakhula.

Kungakho njengoHulumeni senze lomnyango wezamabhizinisi amancane.
Manje-ke uNgqongqoshe uzosebenza nezifundazwe, uzosebenza nomasipala ukuthi loyo naloyo owenza ibhizinisi elincane makabhalise bese etholelwa indawo la ezosebenzela khona.

Sikhona-ke izindawo ezikhona emalokishini ethu lezi esizibiza ukuthi ama-industrial parks.

Zizovuselelwa lezo zindawo lapho zikhona khona ukuze bonke labosomabhizinisi abancane batholakale lapho ngoba lapho bazosizakala ngogesi, bazosizakala ngamanzi.
Manje-ke uma thina siheha osomabhizinisi bangaphandle siye sibanikeze izikhuthazi zokuthi ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 65 English: ... no, in this special economic zone there will be a special tariff for electricity, there will be a special tariff for water.

IsiZulu: Kuyafana-ke nakulaba osomabhizinisi bethu abancane, kuyofanela ukuthi nabo sibanikeze amanani akhethekile uma betholakala kuleyo ndawo esiyibiza i-industrial park engaphansi komasipala othile.
Ngakhoke ukusekwa kosomabhizinisi amancane sizokwenza futhi sizobeka imali ezobaseka ukuze sibalekele ukuthi bangaphumeleli njalo.

Kumele balandelelwe, kuvulwe uhlu olubhalwe imininingwane yabo, sibabone futhi ukuthi bayakhula nsuku zonke.

Siphinde sibavulele amathuba okudayisa njengoba ngaso sonke isikhathi singuHulumeni kunezimpahla nemisebenzi esiyithengayo mihla la.

Sizowathenga-ke kulabosomabhizinisi bethu abasakhula kodwa leyompahla nemisebenzi kumele ahlangabezane namazinga adingekayo.
Ngiyabonga.

[Ihlombe.]

English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 66 Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon House Chair, Deputy President, the exploitation of South Africans by foreign businesses in these rural areas and townships is a great concern and the inspectors from the Labour Department are not always seen paying visits to these businesses.
And the employees from these businesses in the rural and township areas are losing cases when they go to the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA.

This is very much happening now in rural areas and in townships.

So, what is your take Mr President in order to curb this so that our people can get assistance?

Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon Deputy President, I hope you got the question towards the end.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I haven’t.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Ntshayisa, can you repeat the question please?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 67 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I tried very hard to listen.

I got lost somewhere.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yeah!

I have noticed that hon Deputy President.

I also didn’t get the question.

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Mr Deputy President, I mentioned all these challenges, and then the question is what your take is?
What is your comment?

What is it that you can do to assist these people who are suffering from this?

As I mentioned, perhaps I can start afresh and mention these challenges.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay!

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: You want me to do so?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Deputy President, are you in a position now to respond?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 68 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you hon Ntshayisa, you may take your seat.

Continue, Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.

I think the response to this question is, the first thing that must happen in a municipal space, in a province, is that any small business that is operating there must be registered, it must be known.
Now, if that business is known, that business can apply for support either financially in terms of infrastructure that must be built in that area, in terms of business support, incubation.

There are a number of support mechanisms that are there that can be offered to a small business.

But the fact of the matter is that business must be registered.
So, we will take a campaign to ensure that every business that is operating is operating legally and that person who is operating that business is here in this country legally.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 69 That is fundamental to do but beyond that, it is our responsibility as the government to support these small businesses and ensure that whatever goods they are producing they find a market.
We are going to work with all these small businesses in all the provinces to find markets for the products that they are producing and I have said that government presents itself as one market that is available to buy these goods and services from these SMMEs.

But one thing that we must eliminate is SMMEs that are selling goods that are not of good quality, goods that have expired that are harmful to consumers.

That is not going to be allowed.


You would have realised that in a number of provinces premiers taking this campaign visiting businesses and they found some of these expired goods that are being sold to our people.

So, we are going to protect our consumers from these businesses as much as we want to support these businesses to be in business.

Thank you very much.


IsiZulu: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 70 Mnu Z N MBHELE: Sihlalo, Sekela Mongameli ... English: ... many studies have shown that the competitive advantage that is enjoyed by foreign national-owned retail microenterprises is based on them leveraging social networks and through those, they benefit from cheaper labour, bulk buying for discount purchases and economies of scale and peer microfinancing within that social network.
And in addition, many of these foreign national-owned spaza shops invest much larger capital outlays in the enterprises.
So ... IsiZulu: ... umbuzo wami uthi, kunokuthi kuvalwe amathuba, kuvalwe isikhala ... English: ... in the economy through regulation which would actually harm consumer interest because they benefit from cheaper goods, what will your government do differently UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 71 to invest in business skills training to facilitate microcredits because the new fund you mentioned would not – at the face it – be different from Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa, for example.
[Time expired.]

[Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

IsiZulu: Yini ehlukile enizoyenza?

English: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In our attempt to try to assist small businesses we should not move away from the legal prescripts.

Everything that we must do we must do it within the acceptable legal frameworks.
You will understand that, for you to open a business, your business must be registered, it must be known so that inspectors, from time to time, can come and check your business, whether it is a liquor outlet, you will be given some trading hours and there will be inspectors that will come and inspect whether you are still trading according to the requirements and agreement of your licence.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 72 So, it is important that as much as we want to see SMMEs thriving in their numbers, we must not move away from the legislative framework.

I think that has created a problem.

A number of businesses that are operating now are not registered.
First of all, we must register them and government is ready to support these businesses financially in terms of their management skills to run a business so that we avoid the high failure rate of these small businesses.

Now, in the process, we are saying the government presents itself as a market but we are also mindful that government is a bad payer.

Government is not paying these SMMEs on time.


We are going to stand up and ensure that these SMMEs are paid on time because it is one thing to talk about economic growth; it is another thing when the society is standing up, working hard, putting their bit in trying to grow the economy and they are then getting discouraged by the very same government that is encouraging them to grow the economy.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 73 So, there are certain things that we must do right as the government in order to allow for economic growth.

One space that we must attend to, we must pay our service providers on time so that we reduce the failure rate because if you pay them after 90,100 days they cannot survive, they will close shop.

Now, the acceptable time to pay these SMMEs is less than 30 days.
I do not understand why we must stay for a long time not paying a service provider if that service has been provided.

I do not understand.

So, I am trying to say, everything that we are going to do, first of all, we must eliminate illegal trading because it comes with a lot of problems.

We are trading with counterfeit goods, goods that have expired, that present a problem in a community.
So the best thing that we must do as a government is to regulate that environment but beyond regulating, support the SMMEs because by supporting these SMMEs you are supporting your economy.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Question 12: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 74 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, access to land for productive economic activities remains a priority for government in addressing unemployment, poverty and deprivation.
There is a moral obligation on the side of government to reverse the legacies of dispossession and skewed patterns of land ownership which continue to engender and deepen inequalities in the distribution of wealth in our society.

To accelerate land reform government has prioritised intervention measures that will unlock land for redistribution to support agricultural production, human settlement and industrial development.
Cabinet has approved the release of state owned land for the development of priority human settlement projects throughout the country especially in urban and peri urban spaces to deal with the settlement congestion and the rising demand for the development, land and service delivery infrastructure in our metropolitan areas.
More importantly government land released for integrated and sustainable human settlement will have to address the demand for the development of industries, business UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 75 support infrastructure in close proximity to where our people live.

The process for the identification, profiling and land use assessment of available state owned land has been concluded.
The policy setting out beneficiary selection and allocation criteria is currently being reviewed and enhanced to ensure that fairness, equity and transparency in the redistribution process is carried in a fair manner.

This policy will be finalised by the end of November this year.

As we have mentioned before in this august House, we are continuing to engage with farmers, business and institutions wishing to donate land to advance land reform objectives.
In this regard, government is finalising the land restitution policy to guide the process and transactions involving land donations by companies and non-state institutions.

This policy will be concluded also by the end of November.

Through the work of the Land Claim Commission we are expediating the finalisation of our outstanding claims on government owned land to ensure that it is available for redistribution.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 76 We have taken a decision that the land which is owned by the government that has been claimed will be released free of charge.

The success of our land reform programme depends on the quality and effectiveness of our post settlement support to beneficiaries of land reform.

We must ensure that restituted and redistributed land is put under optimal production.
In partnership with traditional leaders, we must ensure that communal land is effectively utilised to expand the country’s productive capabilities.

As part of our targeted post settlement initiatives, government has prioritised mechanisation support, irrigation infrastructure, extension advisory services, the provision of inputs such as seeds, fertilisers and the facilitation of access to domestic and export markets.
To improve production support and integrated producer support policy has been finalised to streamline the delivery of financially and nonfinancial support across various segments of producers.

This model and policy will allow for better co-ordination and alignment of government efforts and investment decisions to grow and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 77 expand our agricultural sector.
In this model provision is also made to support farmers with innovative farming technologies and financial instruments to mitigate the risks posed by natural disasters and climate change.

The Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development has several key interventions both at provincial and national level aimed at supporting farmers and unlocking the growth potential of the agricultural sector.
Key among these interventions are the comprehensive agricultural support programme, Ilima/Letsema Support programme which aim to provide post settlement support to targeted beneficiaries of land reform.

In terms of access to market, government is committed to assisting producers especially emerging black farmers to benefit from the existing trade agreements and protocols that South Africa is a signatory to.
These include the South African Development Community and the European Union’s Economic Partnership Agreements, Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, Brics as well as UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 78 agreements in the United States of America, the Middle East and Asia.
The overarching goal of these initiatives is to ensure adequate utilisation of our land at our disposal and the removal of barriers to entry into agricultural sector by previously disadvantaged communities, especially young and emerging farmers.

In this way we will contribute towards the attainment of the National Development Plan goal of ending hunger and poverty by 2030.

I thank you, Chair.
I thank you, Chair.

Mr M G MAHLAULE: Hon Deputy President, through you House Chairperson, our agricultural sector is very crucial to our economy as it supports other sectors in the whole value chain, including what you call food processing, retail and clothing and textile.

What is our government doing to ensure that emerging farmers gain access to these lucrative markets?
Also, what is government doing to make sure that black people in general gain greater ownership and control to this whole value chain as it stands because it is belonging to the few monopolies that are happening to be white?

Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 79 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it starts from the ownership of land.

As we redistribute land and or restitute it that comes with a post settlement support.
That would be a grant which would assist the farmer to produce and till the land.

Beyond tilling the land the farmer will produce and the farmer will be assisted to find a market to sell the products.

Already, like as I have said that South Africa has entered into a number of trade agreements, we need to get our farmers to play that part by producing and exporting the products.

The difficulty that our farmers have is that they lack financial support and they are not connected in those export networks.
As government we should assist them to gain the necessary platforms that will allow them to export their produce.

On that, we have made provision for.

As we are speaking we have assisted a lot of farms through the stimulus package to produce.

Those who are doing stock farming are exporting meat.
Production in terms of crop farming has been hampered by the rainfall and we are confident that beyond this period, as summer begins we are ready to support those UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 80 farmers to till the land and ready to support them to export their products.

Mr M N PAULSEN: Hon House Chairperson, Deputy President you are telling a good story but the reality is something very different.
One of the major failures of land reform is that even the little land that gets distributed to blacks end up into the hands of the MK veterans or others aligned to the ANC.

You know that the MK veterans, very few of them even know a pitchfork from the AK47.

These are the gate keeping and patronage networks that play inimically to any prospects of a successful land reform programme.
Can you commit today that you will use your authority to make public a complete database of all the beneficiaries of proactive land acquisition strategy indicating which beneficiaries are using land in a productive manner, what support they have received from government and how many of them are servicing their lease agreements?

Thank you very much.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 81 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon House Chairperson, everything that we are going to do as the InterMinisterial committee will be transparent.

The criteria to redistribute land will be transparent.

Why are we selecting certain people that will benefit from that land release will be transparent.

We are very happy to release to register of all people who have benefited from our land reform process since 1994.
We have made progress though not enough to celebrate about and that is why we discussed this matter here.

To fast track our land restitution programme we must look at the option of expropriating land without compensation which is one of the instruments of pursuing land reform.

We must say here that as government we are going to proceed restitution with the amount budgeted for in this current financial year.
We are going to continue to procure land and restitute it to those who have claimed it until you resolve the question here about section 25 of the Constitution.

In the meantime, government will proceed to restitute land with the available resources that we have.

We do not have UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 82 enough resources but we are going to continue to restitute land.

Government is going to redistribute land.


There is land that has been claimed that is in the hands of government.

That land is going to be released free of charge.

We have got 261 claims of land parcels that have been made and those land parcels belong to government.

We are in a process of releasing all these 261 land parcels.

On top of that, we have assessed 278 land parcels that are in the hands of government that we are aiming to redistribute.

Remember this is not land that has been claimed.


It is land that we have deliberately assessed as government to fast track our redistribution process.

Now, we are done with the assessment of those land parcels and we know what these land parcels are capable of; whether you can grow crops or put livestock.

As we redistribute these land parcels it will come with an assessment report that would help the farmer about the status of that land so that you know exactly which crop you can grow or keep livestock.
We are not just giving UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 83 you land but we want you to be productive on that piece of land.

So our process of redistribution and restitution is well on track.

In a very short space of time, all the Ministers in the InterMinisterial Committee will be out there to hand over these parcels before the end of the year.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]


Ms T BREEDT: Hon House Chair, hon Deputy President, according to the former Department of Land Reform, almost 90% of land reform projects have failed.

This means that many of the productive farms that were transferred are now unproductive and therefore jobs have been lost and shed and that also means less food is being produced.
How do you ensure economic stability and food security as well as provide assurance to farmers, commercial and sustainable and thus fast tracking of land reform projects?

I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon House Chair, we will continue to fast track our land reform programme but I have said here that we are currently looking at the farmer support programme; post settlement programme which is co- ordinated.
Previously, yes, those who have been given UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 84 land have failed.

They have failed because of the lack of consistent support.

Now we are coming with an integrated support model that will be located at the district level.

We are trying to follow this same model of a district and we think it is closer to the farmer.

That is where all our support is going to be located.
I have mentioned the type of support that we are going to give to each an individual farmer.

Recently I have visited farmers in the Northern Cape and realised the problems that are experienced by these farmers.

Currently we are supporting those farmers.


There is drought which caused the cattle to die and we immediately came up with interventions on the spot to supply fodder and to ensure that land is made available to the provincial government so that they can continue to plant fodder and increase their fodder bank to support these farmers.

We are going to continue but this is not a well co- ordinated intervention but we are going to locate the intervention at a district that will be permanent.
Farmers will be supported on a permanent basis to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 85 produce.

So, we are coming up with a support model that will permanent and known by farmers.

All farmers that are getting support from that centre will be registered.

Mrs A STEYN: Hon House Chairperson, Deputy President, the DA supports the efforts to release state land for land reform purposes.

This is long overdue and something that we have been calling for.
My concern however with the second part of the question relating to the economic participation and the agricultural sector is that are you aware of all the forensic as well as the Special Investigation Unit, SIU investigations currently ongoing in the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development?

This is because of irregularities or stealing regarding use of state funds that was budgeted towards farmer support.
The SIU is investigating the comprehensive agricultural support programme, forensic investigation into strengthening the relative rights of farm workers programme, recapitalisation and the development programme.

The R3,9 billion as announced by President UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 86 Ramaphosa for blended finance was put on hold already in April this year.

So, the difficulty that our farmers have is the misappropriation of funds in the department.
What are going to do about that?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, we are going to try very hard to work closely with the Minister of the Department Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development to ensure that all the resources that are meant to support farmers they eventually reach their destination.

This is what we are going to do.

We are going to visit and see each and every support platform where we are supporting farmers and the money used.
We are going to visit these projects to see for ourselves whether the farmers have received the money.

So, we will minimise wastages and the outflow of money through corrupt practises.

The investigations must continue as they were sanctioned by the President because there complaints that were written to the President alerting him of what was happening.
We support those UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 87 investigations and whoever will be found guilty, I guess the law must take its course.

With the new farmer support model we are going to try our best to insulate it from corrupt practises.

[Appaluse.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you hon Deputy President.

Hon members, that concludes questions to the Deputy President and I would like to thank the hon Deputy President for his replies.
SUSPENSION OF RULE 139(1) (Draft Resolution) The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move the motion printed on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party: That the House suspends Rule 139(1), which provides inter alia that questions to the Deputy President be scheduled by the Programme Committee in accordance with Rule 210 for a question day once per month during session time, in order to conduct a second question UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 88 session for the Deputy President on Tuesday, 22 October 2019.
Agreed to.
ALLEGATIONS LEVELLED AGAINST THE SECRETARY TO PARLIAMENT, MR G M E MGIDLANA (Draft Resolution) The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move the motion printed on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party: That the House— (1) notes that – (a) during 2016 and 2017, the executive authority received a number of allegations, including allegations of financial misconduct, levelled against the Secretary to Parliament, Mr G M E Mgidlana, who is also the accounting officer; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 89 (b) on 25 May 2017, the executive authority requested the Audit Committee to promptly investigate the allegations, including the allegations of financial misconduct as they are obliged to do by section 67(2)(a) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act 10 of 2009, FMPPLA; (c) on 9 June 2017, the Secretary to Parliament was placed on special leave in order to allow the investigation of the matter by the Audit Committee; (d) on 27 October 2017, the Audit Committee recommended that disciplinary action be considered against the Secretary to Parliament; (e) the executive authority instituted disciplinary proceedings in accordance with the applicable procedures and as required by section 67(2)(b) of the FMPPLA; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 90 (f) disciplinary charges were served on the Secretary to Parliament on 1 February 2018 and the hearing was scheduled to commence on 12 February 2018; (g) the Secretary to Parliament was charged with thirteen counts of serious misconduct, and on 30 August 2019, a disciplinary hearing presided over by an external chairperson found him guilty on the following charges, namely that he was – i. guilty of serious misconduct by accepting an ex gratia payment for himself, and by recommending to the executive authority that certain employees listed in the charge sheet were also eligible for the ex gratia payment; ii.
guilty of serious misconduct by allowing his spouse to travel with him at Parliament’s expense during the times, and to the events listed in the charge sheet; UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 91 iii.

guilty of abusing the Parliamentary Protection Services driving function to provide driving services for a relative and his spouse in violation of the Travel Policy; iv.
guilty of serious misconduct by failing to stop the Parliamentary Protection Services drivers from using blue lights and/or sirens when providing driving services for him and on some occasions together with a relative; v. guilty of serious misconduct for chairing a Special Bid Adjudication Committee; vi.

guilty of serious misconduct by appointing a chief information officer in circumstances where she did not meet the minimum requirements for the position; and vii.
guilty of misconduct, for having used Parliament’s corporate credit card on the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 92 dates and in respect of the amounts contained in the charge sheet, in violation of the Policy on Corporate Credit Card; (2) further notes that in light of the seriousness of the misconduct and of several key provisions of the FMPPLA that were contravened, the chairperson of the disciplinary hearing, on 30 August 2019, recommended summary dismissal for the Secretary to Parliament; (3) accepts the findings of the disciplinary hearing and the recommendations of the Chairperson of the disciplinary hearing; and (4) resolves that the Secretary to Parliament be dismissed summarily and his contract of employment be terminated with immediate effect.
Agreed to.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 93 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member Mhlongo, you must read the Rules that when the presiding officer addresses the House, you must listen to what is going to follow.

I do not need your interjections.

It is uncalled for.

Declarations of Vote: The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, there is a time to come and there is a time to go.
Sadly, the Secretary to Parliament’s time to go was three years ago.

The Secretary to Parliament is like the CEO of this organisation and the fact that this has been dragging on for almost three years has led to a lost of direction and strategic focus for the organisation, as uncertainty and instability around this important position has lingered.
Parliament has a duty to hold itself and its office- bearers to a higher standard, particularly because this House is charged with holding the executive and organs of state accountable to it.

That means that there is a higher duty to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 94 We can’t do this credibly if we don’t take appropriate action timeously against office-bearers of this Parliament in an effective way.
Oversight and accountability cannot be nice words that we put on the steps coming into the House, if we are not prepared to practice them in everything we do.

There is a quote that says: “It is never too late to do the right thing.” As this House, this is the right thing for us to be doing.
Where I do think the new Speaker and the new executive authority need to be commended and congratulated and supported, by us voting for this today is that it would have been very easy for this House just to let Mr Mgidlana’s contract come to an end, as it does in November this year, and to quietly let him slink off to another government sinecure in a cushy office somewhere.
However, the Speaker and executive authority and Parliament are sending a very clear message out that we are not going to allow Mr Mgidlana, given the serious gravity of the charges that he has been found guilty of, to slip off into the night into another cushy job, and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 95 that he is going to be dismissed by Parliament, as a result of his action.
What this does is that it sends out the right message throughout the organisation that if you do wrong, you will be held accountable.

So, while it has taken a long time to get to where we are today, and to this motion serving before us, it is the right motion and it is the right thing to do.
Hopefully, this organisation can close this chapter and start to heal itself and start to move forward to build a better Parliament of which we, as members, can all be proud, but most importantly, of which the people of South Africa can be proud.

Ms N V MENTE: Hon House Chair, we could not agree 100% more as the EFF.

This has come much later than we expected it to be, but in any case it was expected that it can be delayed until his term comes to an end.
This is in actual fact, not a dismissal but another golden handshake because this person was charged more than three years ago, yet the finalisation of the charges only came UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 96 exactly at the end of his term.

That does not make sense for us.

It is a very bad practise for Parliament.

It borders on the vetting processes of officials in the public sector, where minimum security standards are not binding, instead a mere recommendation.
Mr Mgidlana is going to crop up in one of the departments here, because nothing will be binding for him to be recorded as the most corrupt thugs who came to enrich himself, a self-seeking, selfish person who came to oppress the fellow black children in Parliament, the one who was only giving himself subsidies to educate himself.

The one who was giving himself trips on the taxpayers’ expense, the one who was not giving proper salaries and standards even to the workers of Parliament.
The Secretary to Parliament holds higher authority because he charges all what Parliament is and employs the utmost discipline, ethics and integrity.

This should serve as a caution to the next panel which is going to be interviewing the Secretary to Parliament, that the person must be vetted; it must not be a choice.
Otherwise we are UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 97 going to harbour another thug that is going to come here and take money of taxpayers, money of Parliament for themselves.

This motion must be noted as one where cadre deployment must never, ever be utilised.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chair, the serious allegations against Mr Mgidlana and subsequent findings, has caused an embarrassment for all us as an institution.
Parliament is meant to work against corruption and abuse of power through oversight and formulation of legislation.

Unfortunately, the findings of misconduct, abuse of power and misuse of funds against a senior member of this institution does not reflect well on Parliament’s public image.

Hon Chair, this is not the first time that we as Parliament have had to sanction the removal of a Secretary of Parliament, it is the second time.

There must never be a third time.


The reason lies in how some of these officials are appointed to their posts.

Hon Mente spoke about cadre UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 98 deployment and I want to agree.

Some of the hon members who were here in the fifth Parliament will know how this gentleman was protected by somebody in higher office, sitting right behind me.
When allegations were made against the Secretary to Parliament, [interjections]..., not the particular Chairperson, but sitting in the same seat.

When the allegations were made particularly by Nehawu about some of the shenanigans that the Secretary to Parliament was involved in, it fell on deaf ears.

Now the truth has prevailed as it is said the truth shall prevail.

We therefore welcome the disciplinary enquiry.

We welcome the fact that the Secretary to Parliament should be removed from office.
It has come late as the hon Mente has said, but better late than never.

Hon Chair, it also brings into question the long delays to deal with such cases.

We know that due legal process has to be followed, but it is over two years that this gentleman has been receiving a salary and has been a drain on the fiscus.
If you look at the public service, there are many more cases such as this, where people have UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 99 been suspended with full pay and the cases taking a long time to finalise.

I think, we as Parliament have a responsibility and a duty to ensure that there is some way to shorten this process so that these elements can be out of our system and not be a drain on us as the fiscus.
Finally, I know that when the Secretary to Parliament is appointed, there is an interview committee which comprises of the executive authority and in the last instance they used some expert.

I believe that the time has come when Members of Parliament from different political parties together with the executive authority and these experts must form this panel.

In that way there can be a better view and there will hopefully be no chance for cadre deployment.
We can get a person that we can trust and that will hold this institution in high esteem and regard.

We support the motion.

Thank you very much.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Thank you hon member, the hon Swart and thank you for the correction hon Singh.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 100 Mr S N SWART: Hon House Chair, the ACDP supports the motion on the order paper and it is crucial that Parliament, which manages and appropriates public finances, sets itself a much higher standard.

We exercise oversight and the question in Latin is quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Who will guard the guards?

We set in a service standard; we must apply that same standard as well.
It is crucial that we need to ensure that the taxpayer’s funds are dealt with in a transparent, responsible and accountable fashion.

Mainly, the other speakers have already alluded to the fact that the disciplinary processes took a long time.

We in the ACDP agree.

It is a shame that this process goes back to 2016 and that the legal process took almost two years to conclude.

It is an issue which is across the whole public sector.
It is something that we experience, the delays where public officials are suspended on full pay.

We are now sitting the situation here that the contract has almost come to a conclusion.
We share the sentiments and the congratulations and the commendations to the Speaker and the Chairperson of the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 101 NCOP for not aligning this just to run the 10 weeks that are left of the contract but to send a very strong message that the disciplinary action has been concluded, and that this Parliament will support the findings of the disciplinary hearing.
Lastly, we would also support the study of the evidence and the findings of the disciplinary action to see whether there is evidence that could be the basis for criminal action and civil action to recover those funds that have been taken.

We believe that not only the disciplinary action, but further action should be taken to recover the ill gotten gains.

The ACDP will support this motion.

I thank you.


IsiXhosa: Nks T L MARAWU: Sihlalo Ohloniphekileyo, siyi-ATM siyasixhasa kakhulu esi sindululo sibekwe apha phambi kwethu yi-ANC, Mbhexeshi Oyintloko.

Into esiyithethayo kwakhona sithi, uphando nzulu ngomntu lubalulekile kakhulu.

Makuthi xa kuzakuqeshwa abantu kwizikhundla eziphezulu (critical posts) kuqinisekiswe ukuba uphando UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 102 nzulu lwenziwe.
Izindululo zeSebe lezoKhuseleko loMbuso maziphunyezwe kwaye kuncanyathelwe kuzo ... English: ... because, what we discovered is that sometimes they recommend and say... IsiXhosa: ...makangathathwa lo mntu aze athi umphathi walo welo ziko ndizakwenza umngcipheko wokumthatha kwaye izakuba luxanduva lwam, athathwe ke loo mntu.

Loo nto izala izinto ezifana nezi.

Ngalo mazwi sithi libethwa kubekanye, libone.

Siyasixhasa esi sindululo sithemba ukuba into enje ayizukuphinda yenzeke.

Enkosi kakhulu.
Enkosi kakhulu.

IsiXhosa: Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Nalo ke isela, nangoku libanjiwe.

English: Hon House Chair, hon members, we as the UDM indeed, supports the motion.
I just want to show you a letter that we wrote, which I personally wrote on behalf of my party on 14 April 2016, where I was raising precisely UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 103 some of the allegations which are contained in the order paper and the motion today, requesting the Speaker of Parliament to look into these matters and to investigate them.
The Speaker of Parliament at the time responded by saying that they were going to look into the matter and a month and a half later there was a budget vote here Budget Vote 2, where she exonerated Mr Mgidlana of any wrong doing at the time.

I was very upset in that debate, because at the time what was happening is precisely what hon Singh cited earlier to say, the Nehawu workers raised these issues consistently and they were ignored.
They were beaten up by the police outside, teargeased for raising these irregularities and the corruption that was taking place because the Secretary to Parliament at the time was getting protection from some people in the executive authority.

As we celebrate this long overdue victory, we have to take steps to ensure that this does not happen again.
I want to make another example and say, immediately after I wrote this letter to the Speaker and started making UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 104 noise; I was accused by the very same arrogant executive management of Parliament of being naive and not understanding government’s issues.

IsiXhosa: Bathi ingathi simuncu.

English: I was called for an interview and asked whether I want to respond.

I said the Secretary to parliament is my employee.


Under no circumstances can I argue with the Secretary to Parliament or his executive management in the media.

The person that we were supposed to be speaking to was the Speaker and the executive authority of Parliament.

It is these government issues that we must sort out.

The other issue immediately after I raised the issue was, because the Secretary to Parliament is the accounting officer of the funds that we receive.
They started trying to find reasons why they could withhold money from the UDM, the quarterly allocation.

I raised this issue as well and I said why am I expected to present myself to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 105 the office of my employee and explain the financials of the UDM?

Why am I not called by the executive authority of Parliament to do so?

IsiXhosa: Ngala mandla sibanika wona aba bantu sibaqeshileyo, yenze kubengathi basiqeshile.
Andiyazi ukuba niphatha njani kwaye nilawula njani.

English: You are a government in office but not in power, because... IsiXhosa: ...kutheni le nto siza kubizwa ngaba bantu sibaqeshileyo.

English: Even during the study tours I raised this issue.

I said, we accompany the executive authority of Parliament on a study but it would appear as if they are the people who are part of the delegation.
IsiXhosa: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 106 Ukhwele iteksi, uMgidlana yena wayekhwela iiBenz zodidi eChina.

Amalungu eNdlu akhwela iteksi.

English: These are the problems we must address... IsiXhosa: ...singabe siyilungiselela le nto yamasela.

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: House Chairperson, as EIC we also support the motion, it can not be correct now that we can keep things in our systems, departments and in Parliament.

We are happy therefore that this has come to an end.
There are of these instances that should be looked into, so that now these happenings may be curbed or prevented from happening.

We should be a government that is always against corruption and we should also see the corruption when it is coming or about to happen.

We should be proactive and prevent it from happening.

So when these instances are reported, we should take action immediately, we should not wait rather until there is a lot of damage that has been caused.
I wish that I UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 107 can even speak now about other monies that are being allocated to us political parties.

I think next time we should talk about this because, there are monies that are being allocated to us, so they must also be looked into as to how are we using these monies, otherwise we support this motion.

Thank you very much.


Mr W M MADISHA: House Chair, it has been proven that the said culprit committed- what has been put before Parliament today, gives COPE reason to agree with the motion wholly, and we therefore support the wish all the other parties have said.

There is thing that is called cadre deployment, that must end and only persons with capacity and honesty, must be given work to serve South Africans.
I want to emphasise that it is not happening only at the national level, even in the provinces the same thing is happening and that is a major, major problem.

The fund that must go to the people of South Africa, the working class and the poor people, is actually just disappearing, like that and that is a very serious problem.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 108 Now, I want to refer to one of the departments, at this level which instead of employing the number of persons that it was to employ and that is 80, that department- and members know- has gone on to employ about 500 people.

Now that is cadre deployment and that is a major, major problem.

These are things that they have got to be dealt with.
If at the level of the minister and those persons that work under him or her, you have more than 500 people employed instead of only 80, it means there is a very serious problem.

Here we are talking about that which is actually there, there is proof, there is a problem here in South Africa, starting of course at this very level that has got to be dealt with.

Thank very much.
Thank very much.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP: House Chairperson, the ANC commends and welcomes the decision by the executive authority to take the necessary steps and deal with this issue of the Secretary to Parliament.

We also welcome the decision and recommendations of the Chairperson of the disciplinary hearing, we support it as the ANC.
Hon members, yes the process took long but, I want remind this House that ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 109 Siswati: ...ngitsi emalunga aleSishayamtsetfo saVelonkhe.

Ngitsi lekufanele sicinise imitsetfo, kutsi uma umuntfu nangabe atfolakala anelicala lekukhwabanisa, uma amiswa emsebentini kwesikhashana, angaholelwe, angalitfoli liholo.
Siyicinise futsi lemitsetfo kutsi uma sekulandzelwe yonkhe lemigomo lekufanele ilandzelwe, loyo muntfu – uyeva Steenhuisen – atfolakale kutsi ukhokhela tonkhe letimali leti latikhwabanisile ngoba njengoba sonkhe sihleti lapha sibhadala intsela kantsi iyasilimata kakhulu.

Leyo ntsela incedza bantfu labahluphekile.

SiyiPhalamende, singemalunga etinhlangano letehlukahlukene siyakhala kutsi asiniketwa timali letifanele, letanele.
Ngiyacabanga kutsi ngekucinisa leyo mitsetfo kutawenta kutsi bantfu labaningi basabe kutsi bantjontje esikhwameni sahulumende nome sePhalamende.

Ngicabanga kutsi loko kufanele kucale kulo lePhalemende, kuningi lokufanele sikulungise.

Yebo singema lapha sitsi hhayi [cadre deployment] hheyi kucashanwa ngekutsi ulilunga layiphi inhlangano noma kunalabo bebahudvula tinyawo ekutseni lelicala lingacedvwa, akusilo liciniso.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 110 Lebekufanele kwenteke kutsi kulandzelwe imitsetfo ngendlela yakhona kute lentfo ingabuyi emuva ishaye yona Iphalemende kutsi ifanele ikhokhele umuntfu ngoba bangakahambisanga kahle tintfo.

Angitsi ngitsi lesishaya imitsetfo levikela labantfu labonako lebaniketa litfuba lekutsi bahambe nabo bente lonkhe loluhlelo kutsi luhambe kancane, ngoba banemalungelo ekutsi bativikele.
Kufanele siyishintje leyo mitsetfo sente siciniseko sekutsi siyayicinisa, kute kuphele lokukhwanabanisa lokukhona, ngoba loko kungumdlavuta lolimata live letfu.

Bantfwana betfu bayalimala ngetindzaba tekukhwabanisa ngoba kunetinsita lekufanele tiye kubo nebantfu labahluphekile, abakhoni kutitfola ngendzaba yekukhwabanisa eveni letfu.

Ngiyabonga.

(Translation of Siswati pragraphs follows.)

[... we are the members of this very National Legislature.
We are the ones who must reinforce the laws, that if anyone is found guilty of corruption, if one is temporarily suspended from work, must not get his salary.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 111 We must also make sure that when all the procedures have been followed, that person – do you understand hon Steehuisen?

That person must be made to pay back all the monies he defrauded and as we are all here we pay tax and it is not a nice thing.

That tax is helping the poor.


As Parliament, we are members of different parties and we always complain that we are not being allocated enough funds.

I think by reinforcing strict rules will make those people deter from stealing from the government funds or from Parliament.

I think that must first start from this very Parliament, there is a lot that need to be fixed.
Yes, we can stand here saying no to cadre deployment, no to employing people according to party affiliation or there are those who are dragging their feet so that this case may not be finalised, that is not the truth.

What was supposed to have happened was to follow all the procedures accordingly so that this may not come and hit back to Parliament and make Parliament to pay that person because Parliament did not follow procedures properly.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2019 Page: 112 We are the ones making the laws that protect people who do wrong and that gives them opportunity to drag the process because they have rights to defend themselves.

We need to change those laws and ensure that we tighten them so that this corruption must come to an end, because that is a cancer that is killing our country.
Our children are adversely affected by corruption because there are services that they and the poor must get, yet they cannot get them because of corruption in our country.

Thank you.]

The House adjourned at 16:50.