Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698748719695.pdf (Malaysia)
Volume III No.

23 Saturday 28th January, 1967 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES) OFFICIAL REPORT THIRD SESSION OF THE SECOND PARLIAMENT OF MALAYSIA CONTENTS BILL: The Supply Bill, 1967 [Col. 3593J ADJOURNMENT (Motion) [Col. 3646] DI-CHETAK DI-JABATAN CHETAK KERAJAAN OLEH THOR BENG CHONG, A .

M .
M .

N ., PENCHETAK KERAJAAN KUALA LUMPUR 1968 MALAYSIA DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES) Official Report Third Session of the Second Dewan Ra'ayat Saturday, 28th January, 1967 The House met at Ten o'clock a.m.

PRESENT: The Honourable Mr (Deputy) Speaker, TUAN SYED ESA BIN ALWEE, J.M.N., S.MJ., P.I.S.

(Batu Pahat Dalam).

the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Defence and Minister of National and Rural Development, TUN HAJI ABDUL RAZAK BIN DATO' HUSSAIN, S.M.N.

(Pekan).
(Pekan).

the Minister of Home Affairs and Minister of Justice, TUN DR ISMAIL BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, S.S.M., P.M.N.

(Johor Timor).

the Minister of Finance, TUAN TAN SIEW SIN, J.P. (Melaka Tengah).

the Minister of Transport, TAN SRI HAJI SARDON BIN HAJI JUBIR, P.M.N.

(Pontian Utara).

the Minister of Health, TUAN BAHAMAN BIN SAMSUDIN (Kuala Pilah).

the Minister of Information and Broadcasting and Minister of Culture, Youth and Sports, TUAN SENU BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Kubang Pasu Barat).
the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, TUAN HAJI MOHAMED GHAZALI BIN HAJI JAWI (Ulu Perak).

the Minister of Lands and Mines, TUAN ABDUL-RAHMAN BIN YA'KUB (Sarawak).

the Assistant Minister of National and Rural Development, TUAN SULAIMAN BIN BULON (Bagan Datoh).

the Assistant Minister of Culture, Youth and Sports, DATO' ENGKU MUHSEIN BIN ABDUL KADIR, J.M.N., S.M.T., P.J.K.

(Trengganu Tengah).

the Assistant Minister of Education, TUAN LEE SIOK YEW, A.M.N., P.J.K.

(Sepang).
(Sepang).

the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health, TUAN IBRAHIM BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Seberang Tengah).

the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance, TUAN A LI BIN HAJI AHMAD (Pontian Selatan).

the Parliamentary Secretary to the Deputy Prime Minister, TUAN CHEN WING SUM (Damansara).

3587 28 JANUARY 1967 3588 The Honourable TUAN ABDUL GHANI BIN ISHAK, A.M.N.

(Melaka Utara).

TUAN ABDUL KARIM BIN ABU, A.M.N.

(Melaka Selatan).

WAN ABDUL KADIR BIN ISMAIL, P.P.T.


(Kuala Trengganu Utara).

TUAN ABDUL RAHMAN BIN HAJI TALIB, P.J.K.

(Kuantan).

TUAN ABDUL RAZAK BIN HAJI HUSSAIN (Lipis).

TUAN ABDUL SAMAD BIN GUL AHMAD MIANJI (Pasir Mas Hulu).

Y.A.M.

TUNKU ABDULLAH IBNI AL-MARHUM TUANKU ABDUL RAHMAN, P.P.T.

(Rawang).

TUAN HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI MOHD.

SALLEH, A.M.N., S.M.J., P.I.S.

(Segamat Utara).

TUAN A BU BAKAR BIN HAMZAH (Bachok).

TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH (Kelantan Hilir).

TUAN AHMAD BIN ARSHAD, A.M.N.

(Muar Utara).


TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN SA'AID, J.P. (Seberang Utara).

PUAN AJIBAH BINTI ABOL (Sarawak).

TUAN JONATHAN BANGAU ANAK RENANG, A.B.S.

(Sarawak).

PENGARAH BANYANG ANAK JANTING, P.B.S.

(Sarawak).

TUAN CHAN SIANG SUN, P.J.K.

(Bentong).

TUAN CHEW BIOW CHUON (Bruas).

TUAN CHIA CHIN SHIN, A.B.S.

(Sarawak).

TUAN FRANCIS CHIA NYUK TONG (Sabah).

TUAN CHIN FOON (Ulu Kinta).

TUAN D. A. DAGO ANAK RANDAN alias DAGOK ANAK RANDEN (Sarawak).
TUAN EDWIN ANAK TANGKUN (Sarawak).

DATIN HAJJAH FATIMAH BINTI HAJI ABDUL MAJID (Johor Bahru Timor).

TAN SRI FATIMAH BINTI HAJI HASHIM, P.M.N.

(Jitra-Padang Terap).

TUAN S. FAZUL RAHMAN, A.D.K.

(Sabah).

TUAN GANING BIN JANGKAT (Sabah).

TUAN GEH CHONG KEAT, K.M.N.

(Penang Utara).

TUAN HAJI HAMZAH BIN ALANG, A.M.N., P.J.K.

(Kapar).

TUAN HANAFI BIN MOHD.

YUNUS, A.M.N., J.P. (Kulim Utara).

TUAN HANAFIAH BIN HUSSAIN, A.M.N.

(Jerai).

TUAN HARUN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N., J.P. (Baling).


WAN HASSAN BIN WAN DAUD (Tumpat).

TUAN HUSSEIN BIN T O' MUDA HASSAN, A.M.N.

(Raub).

DATO' HAJI HUSSEIN BIN MOHD.

NOORDIN, D.P.M.P., A.M.N., P.J.K.

(Parit).

TUAN HUSSEIN BIN SULAIMAN (Ulu Kelantan).

TUAN HAJI HUSSAIN RAHIMI BIN HAJI SAMAN (Kota Bharu Hulu).

TUAN IKHWAN ZAINI (Sarawak).

3589 28 JANUARY 1967 3590 The Honourable TUAN ISMAIL BIN IDRIS (P'enang Selatan).

TAN SRI SYED JA'AFAR BIN HASAN ALBAR, P.M.N.

(Johor Tenggara).
(Johor Tenggara).

TUAN KADAM ANAK KIAI (Sarawak).

TUAN KAM WOON WAH, J.P. (Sitiawan).

TUAN THOMAS KANA (Sarawak).

TUAN EDMUND LANGGU ANAK SAGA (Sarawak).

TUAN LEE SECK FUN, K.M.N.

(Tanjong Malim).

DATO' LING BENG SIEW, P.N.B.S.

(Sarawak).

DR LIM CHONG EU (Tanjong).

DR MAHATHIR BIN MOHAMAD (Kota Star Selatan).

TUAN T. MAHIMA SINGH, J.P. (Port Dickson).

TUAN C. JOHN ONDU MAJAKIL (Sabah).

TUAN JOSEPH DAVID MANJAJI (Sabah).

TUAN MOHD.

DAUD BIN ABDUL SAMAD (Besut).


TUAN MOHAMED IDRIS BIN MATSIL, J.M.N., P.J.K., J.P. (Jelebu-Jempol).

TUAN MOHD.

TAHIR BIN ABDUL MAJID, S.M.S., P.J.K.

(Kuala Langat).

TUAN MOHAMED YUSOF BIN MAHMUD, A.M.N.

(Temerloh).

WAN MOKHTAR BIN AHMAD (Kemaman).

TUAN HAJI MOKHTAR BIN HAJI ISMAIL (Perlis Selatan).

TUAN MUHAMMAD FAKHRUDDIN BIN HAJI ABDULLAH (Pasir Mas Hilir).

TUAN HAJI MUHAMMAD SU'AUT BIN HAJI MUHD.

TAHIR, A.B.S.

(Sarawak).


DATO' HAJI MUSTAPHA BIN HAJI ABDUL JABAR, D.P.M.S., A.M.N., J.P. (Sabak Bernam).

TUAN MUSTAPHA BIN AHMAD (Tanah Merah).

TUAN NG FAH YAM (Batu Gajah).

TUAN HAJI OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH (Hilir Perak).

TUAN OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N.

(Perlis Utara).

TUAN HAJI RAHMAT BIN HAJI DAUD, A.M.N.

(Johor Bahru Barat).

TUAN RAMLI BIN OMAR (Krian Darat).

TUAN HAJI REDZA BIN HAJI MOHD.

SAID, P.J.K., J.P. (Rembau-Tampin).

TUAN SANDOM ANAK NYUAK, A.M.N.

(Sarawak).


TUAN SEAH TENG NGIAB, P.I.S.

(Muar Pantai).

TUAN SIM BOON LIANG, A.B.S.

(Sarawak).

TUAN SIOW LOONG HIN, P.J.K.

(Seremban Barat).

TUAN SNAWI BIN ISMAIL, P.J.K.

(Seberang Selatan).

TUAN SOH AH TECK (Batu Pahat).

TUAN SULAIMAN BIN ALI (Dungun).

TUAN SULAIMAN BIN HAJI TAIB (Krian Laut).

PENGIRAN TAHIR PETRA (Sabah).

3591 28 JANUARY 1967 3592 The Honourable TUAN TAJUDDIN BIN A L I, P J .

K. (Larut Utara).

TUAN TAI KUAN YANG (Kulim Bandar Bharu).


TUAN TAN CHENG BEE, J.P. (Bagan).

TUAN TAN TOH HONG (Bukit Bintang).

TUAN TAN TSAK YU (Sarawak).

TUAN TIAH ENG BEE (Kluang Utara).

TUAN Y EH PAO TZE, A.M.N.

(Sabah).

TUAN HAJI ZAKARIA BIN HAJI MOHD.

TAIB, P.J.K.

(Langat).

ABSENT: The Honourable Mr Speaker, DATO' CHIK MOHAMED YUSUF BIN SHEIKH ABDUL RAHMAN, S.P.M.P., J.P., Dato' Bendahara, Perak.

the Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs, Y.T.M.

TUNKU ABDUL RAHMAN PUTRA AL-HAJ, K.O.M.


(Kuala Kedah).

the Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications, TAN SRI V. T. SAMBANTHAN, P.M.N.

(Sungei Siput).

the Minister of Education, TUAN MOHAMED KHIR JOHARI (Kedah Tengah).

the Minister of Commerce and Industry, DR LIM SWEE AUN, J.P. (Larut Selatan).

the Minister for Welfare Services, TUAN HAJI ABDUL HAMID KHAN BIN HAJI SAKHAWAT A LI KHAN, J.M.N., J.P. (Batang Padang).

the Minister for Local Government and Housing, TUAN KHAW KAI-BOH, P J .
K. (Ulu Selangor).

the Minister for Sarawak Affairs, TAN SRI TEMENGGONG JUGAH ANAK BARIENG, P.M.N., P.D.K.

(Sarawak).

the Minister of Labour, TUAN V. MANICKAVASAGAM, J.M.N., P.J.K.

(Klang).

the Minister for Sabah Affairs, TUN DATU MUSTAPHA BIN DATU HARUN, S.M.N., P.D.K.

(Sabah).

the Assistant Minister without Portfolio, TUAN HAJI ABDUL KHALID BIN AWANG OSMAN (Kota Star Utara).

the Assistant Minister of Finance, DR NG KAM POH, J.P. (Teluk Anson).
the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour, TUAN LEE SAN CHOON, K.M.N.

(Segamat Selatan).

WAN ABDUL RAHMAN BIN DATO' TUANKU BUJANG, A.B.S.

(Sarawak).

TUAN HAJI ABDUL RASHID BIN HAJI JAIS (Sabah).

DATO' ABDULLAH BIN ABDULRAHMAN, S.M.T., Dato' Bijaya di-Raja (Kuala Trengganu Selatan).

O. K. K. DATU ALIUDDIN BIN DATU HARUN, P.D.K.

(Sabah).

DR AWANG BIN HASSAN, S.M.J.

(Muar Selatan).

TUAN AZIZ BIN ISHAK (Muar Dalam).

TUAN CHAN CHONG WEN, A.M.N.

(Kluang Selatan).


TUAN CHAN SEONG YOON (Setapak).

TUAN C. V. DEVAN NAIR (Bungsar).

3593 28 JANUARY 1967 3594 The Honourable DATU GANIE GILONG, P.D.K., J.P. (Sabah).

TUAN STANLEY HO NGUN KHIU, A.D.K.

(Sabah).

PENGHULU JINGGUT ANAK ATTAN, Q.M.C, A.B.S.

(Sarawak).

TUAN KHOO PENG LOONG (Sarawak).

TUAN AMADEUS MATHEW LEONG, A.D.K., J.P. (Sabah).

TUAN LIM KEAN SIEW (Dato Kramat).

TUAN LIM PEE HUNG, PJ.K.

(Alor Star).

TUAN PETER LO SU YIN (Sabah).


DATO' DR HAJI MEGAT KHAS, D.P.M.P., J.P., P J .

K. (Kuala Kangsar).

TUAN MOHD.

ARIF SALLEH, A.D.K.

(Sabah).

DATO' HAJI MOHAMED ASRI BIN HAJI MUDA, S.P.M.K.

(Pasir Puteh).

ORANG TUA MOHAMMAD DARA BIN LANGPAD (Sabah).

TUAN MOHD.

ZAHIR BIN HAJI ISMAIL, J.M.N.

(Sungei Patani).

TAN SRI N IK AHMAD KAMIL, D.K., S.P.M.K., SJ.M.K., P.M.N., P.Y.G.P., Dato Sri Setia Raja (Kota Bharu Hilir).

TUAN ONG KEE H UI (Sarawak).

TUAN QUEK KAI DONG, J.P. (Seremban Timor).


RAJA ROME BIN RAJA MA'AMOR, PJ.K., J.P. (Kuala Selangor).

TUAN D. R. SEENIVASAGAM (Ipoh).

DATO' S. P. SEENIVASAGAM, D.P.M.P., P.M.P., J.P. (Menglembu).

TUAN SNG CHIN Joo (Sarawak).

TUAN TAMA WENG TINGGANG WAN (Sarawak).

DR TAN CHEE KHOON (Batu).

TUAN TAN KEE GAK (Bandar Melaka).

TUAN TOH THEAM HOCK (Kampar).

TUAN STEPHEN YONG KUET TZE (Sarawak).


PRAYERS (Mr (Deputy) Speaker in the Chair) THE SUPPLY (1967) BILL Second Reading Budget, most of the Opposition Mem bers had, throughout the debate, said little about the Budget itself, but spent much of their time talking on issues quite strictly are unconnected with the Budget.

Order read for resumption of debate on Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

(27th January, 1967).


The Deputy Prime Minister (Tun Haji Abdul Razak): Mr Speaker, Sir, throughout the debate on the Budget one cannot help noticing, especially we on the Government side, that even the Opposition had found little to criticise year's Budget.

The Honourable Member for Bungsar has found the Budget sound, realistic and sober.

As a result of this realistic this A good example of this is the Honourable Member for Ipoh.
He spoke, and made a debate on the Budget, as if it were a debate on the language issue.

But I expected this from him.

Now, Sir, it is heartening to know that the Opposition have found little fault about the Budget but still they must criticise, otherwise they cannot justify their position on the Opposition Bench.

Honourable Mem bers had commented and criticised several issues, some of them did so through misunderstanding, some others 3595 28 JANUARY 1967 3596 through perpetual, what I would say.
muddled thinking.

On this I can do little, Sir, to help them.

A few of the observations are quite legitimate and we will try our best to answer them, and even correct some of them.

Now, Sir, before I reply to some of the points raised by the Honourable Members of this House on the Budget, I would like to speak on the question of the National Language which had to by the Honourable been referred Member for Ipoh.
The Honourable the Prime Minister had made a reply yesterday and made the position of the Government quite clear on this issue.

The question of language in a country like ours, consisting of people of different racial origins with so many different languages, is controversial and sensitive.
Therefore it is the responsi bility of all of us, Members of this House, as well as political leaders, to be responsible and objective in our approach on this issue and not to make this language issue for political gains.

Any one who does this is clearly play ing with fire, and any one who plays with fire will get his fingers burnt.

We, in the Alliance Government, are always conscious about our responsibility to the people of this country.

We always have the true interests of our people at heart.
We know that if trouble breaks out because of the language issue, it is the ordinary people of the country, the ordinary men and women, who will suffer.

It is our duty to protect the interests of these people and to look after their safety and their wellbeing.

This language issue can and will be resolved by the Alliance Government.
In fact, it has already been resolved in our Constitution which, while declar ing Malay as the National Language and official language from 1st Septem ber this year, also guarantees the use and study of the languages of the other communities; and the Alliance Govern ment, being a just and fair Govern ment, while taking measures to expand the use of the national language, also provides assistance to Chinese and Tamil schools, in order to enable the study of these languages to be carried out more effectively.
That is why, Sir, we have advised all the people not to explained yesterday, play on the sentiments of this language issue because we know, as the Prime the Minister tragedies which have taken place in some countries, because of irresponsible leaders making use of the issue and playing with the people; and if that happens no one will benefit.

In fact, all will suffer, in parti cular the poor people.
As I said before, the language issue can and will be settled by the Alliance Government but leaders, our people, particularly must always be objective and respon sible.

the sentiments of the the Press.

the editors and Now, the Honourable Member for Ipoh alleged that I told the Press not to overplay the language issue.

It is true, Sir, I did this.


At a meeting with the Press, with the journalists, I made it quite clear that, we the Alliance Government, upheld the freedom of I only appealed to the editors of the various newspapers to be responsible and, as responsible citizens, to assist in project ing a balanced and sane picture about the language issue and to be careful and responsible in reporting such state ments on issue.
The Honourable Member for Ipoh himself admitted that, when one section of the the community started shouting on language in- there would be varibly reaction from the other section.

So, obviously, if we are responsible leaders, and if we have the interest of the country at heart, the safety and welfare of our people, then it is our duty to discuss this issue intelligently, objectively, soberly and with modera tion.
language issue, the At the meeting with the editors of the newspapers, I appealed for their co-operation and, to their credit, these editors listened to what I had to say attentively and none of them, as alleged by the Honourable Member, stood up to assert their rights, because there is no question of interfering with their rights.
I was only appealing to their good sense and sense of responsibility, and I am very pleased that the editors and publishers of the newspapers fully appreciated what I said and have given their co-operation to the Government.

There is no doubt that there are a few 3597 28 JANUARY 1967 3598 political leaders in this country, who want to make use of this language issue to obtain support.
But I must warn these people that if, because of their this irresponsible approach on controversial issue, they bring trouble and unrest to this country, they must be held fully responsible.

the leadership of the people of this However, Sir, country of all races have enough intelligence and common sense to know the that, under Alliance Government, their just and aspirations will always be rightful safeguarded.
It has never been the intention on our part to eliminate the use of any language, but rather we want to preserve and sustain the use and study of languages, while accepting Malay as the National and Official Language; and this policy is embodied in the Constitution and it will be there for all time.

I have no doubt that the Alliance Government, leadership of our Prime under Minister, will resolve this question satisfactorily and in the spirit of our Constitution.
the other the Sir, if you would permit me, I would now like to direct my attention to the Honourable Member for Batu.

In his traditionally rambling way, the Member for Batu this year has not much to criticise the Government, or the Budget.

Perhaps, Sir, this may be a sign of the improvement that he has achieved in understanding the Govern ment policies and the machinery of the Government.
The Member for Batu criticised the expenditure of nearly $1,919,009 for consulting work on the proposed Batu Balek Kampong-Aur Rompin Road.

To start with, the Honourable Member was wrong when he said the road was from Rompin to Kampong Aur.

It is, in actual fact, from Batu Balek to Kampong Aur to Rompin.

The length of the proposed road is about 70 miles.

The proposed is of great economic value.


road it will constructed because when provide a useful forest access and also opportunities for opening up vast areas of virgin jungle, and also the construc tion of this road would provide an to alternative Johore.

from Pahang route to Sir, speaking on the recent flood, the Government will be taking, measures, the United including a request Nations to help us with experts to reduce and control the danger of floods in our country.
It will obviously take time and will cost a lot of money to prevent the nature's catastrophe, but we will try as best as we can.

In the meantime, efforts will be made to make our people living in the riverine areas them flood-conscious and to make prepared for the occurrence of big floods such as we just had, and by doing all these it will be possible to minimise the losses.
Also efforts will be made by Government Departments, particularly the Drainage and Irriga tion Department, to take measures to prevent erosion of rivers, which is one of the causes of the flood.

Damages caused by the recent flood had been great in certain areas.

Government will do everything possible to help rehabili tate these unfortunate people many of whom have lost everything that they had.

limited resources.
limited resources.

the damage In Perak and Trengganu, the two State Governments are doing extremely good jobs to assist the flood victims.

In Kelantan, where is considerable, the Central Government will have to provide assistance and to help the rehabilitation work by the State Government.
The State Govern ment has very I would, Sir, like to take this opportunity to express the sincere gratitude of this Government to the people of various races, firms, banks, etc., and to friendly foreign Governments for having come forward with generous contributions to our National Flood Relief Fund.

Even today, money and materials still keep pouring in; and our people and also voluntary organisations have made special efforts to collect money.
I would also to make special mention here of the people of Singapore, who are making special efforts to collect funds for the flood relief.

Also, Sir, I would like to thank the Press in the country for the help and the co-opera tion they have given in the launching of this National Flood Disaster Fund.
like Sir, I would now like to reply to the Honourable Member for Batu on the 3599 28 JANUARY 1967 3600 in improved question of the Malaysian Centre for Development Study and why it should not be merged with the Development Administration Unit, as suggested by the Honourable Member.

As every one knows, the Alliance Government is a modern and forward looking Govern ment.

The creation of these two new Divisions are, in fact, in keeping with modern times.
We are, as I said, living in a modern and specialised world, techniques which demands and up-to-date machinery of Govern ment, and, in keeping with the indepen dent status of our country, it is the intention of the Government to continue to improve the machinery of Govern ment the techniques of develop ment and continue to streamline our whole administrative machinery.
The two Units, Sir—the Malaysian Centre for Development Study and the Develop ment Administration Unit—are created and designed to perform specific and specialised functions.

They are entirely two different organisations and are concerned with two entirely different functions.
The Centre for Development Studies is concerned with organising seminars among developing countries, particularly Afro-Asian nations on national development and also con cerned with research of studies on economic, social and political develop ment of the country, while the D.A.U., or the Development Administration Unit, is primarily concerned with the improvement administrative machinery of the country.

The studies that the D.A.U.


will undertake are not related to economic issue of social and other development programme, but are related the administrative machinery could further be improved and made more efficient.

Obviously, the functions of the two units are different, and it is not possible two.
As Honourable to merge Members are aware, the Malaysian Centre for Development Study is con ducting seminars on national develop for personnel of Afro-Asian ment countries, and it is in this way that we hope to share experience in develop ment techniques with friendly countries and in this way strengthen the ties of international friendship through deve lopment.
The Centre does not under the question of how the the in to take the studies in applied economics, which has been done by the Faculty of Economics, but is concerned as I said, with the techniques of development and with studies in the development pro gramme; and it is the intention of this Centre to conduct seminars.

Generally, expenses for conducting the seminars are being reimbursed from grants from agencies from friendly countries.
So, it is, therefore, clear that it is not possible to merge these two units which have distinct and separate functions.

The Development Administration Unit is concerned with studying the machinery of Government, and it is our intention to streamline further the machinery of our Government, com patible with our position as indepen dent, and modern nation.

forward-looking looking at Now, Sir, I come to the criticism by the Honourable Member for Batu.
He said that I had made an assurance that MARA would not repeat the mistake of RIDA.

Sir, I feel that it is neces sary for me to explain about these two organisations.

RIDA was established under different circumstances in 1951, when we were still under colonial rule, in and RIDA had quite an impact the country at time, and was, that perhaps, the correct organisation, or the pre-Merdeka day.

set-up, during However, the conditions pertaining now, it was necessary that RIDA should be reorganised.
That is why, it is, necessary for us to form a completely new organisation, with new methods and new spirit and new techniques, in keeping with the spirit manifested by the Congress Ekonomi in June this year.
I can Bumiputra assure for Batu that MARA will not repeat the mistakes made by the former RIDA and MARA is undergoing a major change in policy, and objective and functions, and we hope to confine the activities of MARA solely to encour age greater participation of Bumiputra in in commerce and industry, and to assist the development of industrial and commercial enter prise in which the bumiputra can parti cipate.
I am confident, Sir, with the programme undertaken by MARA the Honourable Member this country 3601 28 JANUARY 1967 3602 now, and with the training of qualified staff, MARA will be able to fulfil its responsibility and task entrusted to it.

Now, Sir, the Honourable Member for Ipoh alleged that there was deterio ration in the efficiency of the Civil Service and that the officers are demo ralised.
I think, Sir, this is a very unfair remark, because I know better than anyone about the civil servants and the Civil Service, and I find that our civil servants in this country are second to none, They are always loyal to the Government of the day and they are doing all they could to help the people, and doing all they can to carry out Government development pro grammes; indeed, the success in the implementation of our development programmes for the last six years has been due to the devotion and loyalty of our civil servants.
In fact, they have done so well that we have been able to carry out development plans success fully, and I have no doubt that they will be able to implement our First Malaysia Plan with greater efficiency and success two Malaysia Plans.

the previous than Now, Sir, I would like to pay tribute to all the civil servants for the fine job that they have done, and I do hope with the establishment of the Develop ment Administration Unit, we will be able to improve further the machinery of our government.
Here, Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to correct the reports made in the Press about my announcement of what they said—"the freezing of new posts".
I would like to explain, Sir, that the Government had appointed a Committee to review the staffing in all Government Departments to see whether redundant staff could not be diverted to do more useful job; and this Committee was asked to undertake the job urgently and it is hoped that the report of this Committee will be available in one or two months' time.
I have advised Heads of Departments that until the report of the Committee is available, they should not try and fill in the new posts—new posts that have been approved for 1967.

It will be possible that certain posts of officers, particularly, in the general administra tion and general clerical service could be diverted to fill some of the vacant posts.
Perhaps, on technical posts there is very little likelihood of this, but on the Administrative and the Clerical Service, there is this possibility and that is why it is necessary not to fill these posts for the time being, in a matter of one or two months, but normal recruitment for training to fill in ordinary wastages should continue.
in So, there should be no difficulty this, and I knew that the Heads of Departments who attended the meeting understood what I meant, and also I must correct about the instances I gave in regard to Perak.

The Perak Government had agreed to reduce their Assistant Secretaries from 5 to 3 not to 2, and I think they have done very well indeed to reduce five officers to three.
They have shown co-operation, and I do hope they will be able to do more on this side and would be able to set an example to other States in respect of what can be done in trying to streamline the admin istration or reduce cost.

On the question of election in Sara wak, the Honourable Member for Ipoh claimed that Sarawak is slowly and steadily moving out of Malaysia.
I do not know on what basis he has formed this opinion but, obviously, Sir, we all know that the majority of the people in Sarawak support Malaysia and wish to remain in Malaysia, and these the members of SNAP.

include even We, the Government, are satisfied that it is the desire of the people of Sarawak to remain in Malaysia, and we will stand by the wishes of the people of Sarawak.
As the Prime Minister said to yesterday, it is not our intention force them to do anything against their will and it will be our intention to hold this election in Sarawak as soon as the machinery can be set up, and that election in Sarawak will be held this year, and the Polling day will be in April.

Now, Sir, the Honourable Member for Ipoh accused the Alliance Govern in the ment preaching communalism 3603 28 JANUARY 1967 3604 in in to cause a split among Kampong Bahru by-election.
This, of course, is quite untrue, for if anybody has been harping on this theme and is trying the various Communities, it is the Honour able Member himself.

Although the Alliance candidate the Kampong Bahru by-election happened to be a Malay, he campaigned just as hard in non-Malay areas as the Malay Kampong—Kampong Bahru.

Now, in all his campaign, he was assisted by M.C.A.

and M.I.C.

members, and I would like to correct the misconcep tion in Kampong Bahru predominantly Malays.
The whole constituency con sists of more than 50 per cent of non- Malay voters, and the Malay voters only form 45 per cent of the electorate.

Now, the Alliance candidate won the election not only on their votes alone but on the votes of other races.

On the other hand, there is evidence that the votes for the DAP candidate were exclusively Chinese, as a result of DAP exploitation of racial issues.
that most of the people is Now, in a poor effort to deceive the people, the DAP preached multi-racial co-operation openly but privately in the house to house campaign we have enough evidence to show that the DAP campaigned and exploited racial diffe rences.

The DAP is to some extent multi-racial in character but racial in its political approach, and I even doubt whether the structure of the DAP is multi-racial.
Now, we in the Alliance, as Honourable Members know, are represented parties—the UMNO, the M.C.A.

and the M.I.C— and we have always pledged to work for racial unity, harmony and co-opera tion.

three by Now, Sir, coming to the Honourable Member for Dato Kramat, I do not know why he criticised the building of the mosque at Penang Hill—he said that it was a waste of money.

It is necessary to have this mosque.

It was built largely on contribution from the public.
The mosque cost $72,000 and not $242,000 and the public contributed $42,000 and the Government contribu ted $30,000.

It is necessary, Sir, to have this mosque, which is suitable to the surroundings, and I do not think that the expenditure of $70,000 is a waste of money.
Sir, the Honourable Member for Dato Kramat, as usual, in his rambling way, has concluded that the people of Sabah and Sarawak are not happy with Malaysia, and that there are people in West Malaysia also who are not happy with Sabah and Sarawak remaining in Malaysia.

I do not wish to harp on this any more, Sir, but we in the Cen tral Government know fully well that the people of these two territories have decided to remain with us, and we stand by them.
It is only the Labour Party which has been against Malaysia, and obviously it is the wish of the Honourable Member to disintegrate and liquidate Malaysia.

But we will stand by these people, and we will continue to look after their interests, and in our country.

them happy to make to rebut Now, Sir, Honourable Member has also said that we are neglecting the peasants, the poor people.
I do not have this allegation, Sir, because it is clear to everyone in this country that our rural development plans have changed the country side, in fact, the success of our plans is known not only to this country but the people of throughout the world.

the whole country, and Now, Sir, I come to the question of defence expenditure.

A few Honour able Members from Sarawak criticised the level of our defence expenditure and said that we should try and reduce our defence expenditure.
Well, Sir, as I have explained, although confronta tion has ended, we have still the remnants of the communist terrorists in Sarawak.
There are still thousands of hard-core communists in Sarawak, and it is necessary for us to maintain sufficient armed forces and Police to defend our country, particulary East Malaysia, from the enemies from inside and if the Honourable Members from Sarawak and in particular, the mem the S.U.P.P., would have bers of courage these to stand up against communists and to prevent these com munists from subverting and infiltrating 3605 28 JANUARY 1967 3606 into political parties, then, perhaps, we may be able to reduce some of our defence expenditure.
But so long as they allow or tolerate the presence of the communists in their organisation, it is obvious that the task of the Govern ment will be made more difficult, and it is necessary for us to continue to carry out operation and maintain our armed forces in Sarawak.

It is alleged also that these armed forces are forces from Western Malay sia.

It is not true, Sir, because our armed forces are Malaysian and there are people of Sabah and Sarawak, who have now joined our armed forces.
We have four battalions of the Malaysian Rangers, which consist largely of members from Eastern Malaysia, and it is our intention to include in our armed forces people from all areas of the country, not necessarily from one part of the country.

Now, Sir, as regards the Territorial Army, the volunteer forces, I think, the Honourable Tuan Ong Kee Hui sug gested that we should expand our volunteers and reduce our regulars.
Sir, it is necessary, as I have said, to maintain sufficient number of regular forces to defend our country.

We do continue to maintain our volunteers but, with the ending of confrontation, they have a less important role to play, and we have to reduce our expenditure on defence.

That is why we have to reduce some of the volunteers and those who are on call-up duties have now reverted back to their normal peace time duties.
of training servicemen— national otherwise, Sir, it is necessary to con tinue to increase our regular armed forces.

that the youths of should be called up Now, the Member for Sitiawan has suggested this for country military training.

This is a very good idea, indeed, but again this will cost a lot of money and that is why we had to disband the training for call-ups, because we have to reduce our expen diture.
Obviously, if we have to main tain our defence expenditure at a cer tain reasonable level with the present security situation, it is necessary for us to reduce expenditure in the training of call-ups and in our volunteer forces.
Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ada beberapa Ahli2 Yang Berhormat membuat pan- dangan terutama sa-kali Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Johor Bahru Barat mengatakan, dia sangat kesal kerana pengundi2 pendaftaran di-Kampong Bahru tidak bagitu memuaskan hati, daripada 40,000 orang pengundi2 hanya 12,000 orang sahaja di-daftarkan.

Tuan Yang pehak di-Pertua, Surohanjaya Pilehan Raya sedang mengkaji satu sistem yang baru untok menyenangkan pengundi2 hendak men- daftar.
Jadi, pada masa yang lalu buku2 pendaftaran ini di-buka pada lhb September hingga 12hb Septem ber.

Di-harapkan buku2 ini dapat di- buka pada masa yang lebeh lanjut lagi supaya menyenangkan pengundi2 men- daftarkan diri mereka ini sedang di-kaji oleh pehak Surohanjaya Pilehan Raya.

itu.

Soal Now, Sir, the Honourable Member for Bungsar, I think, did not under stand why the estimates on defence do not show a reduction but show an in personal emolu increase of 7% ments.
As I have explained, Sir, it is necessary for us to continue to increase the strength of our regular forces, although we do our best to reduce the less important expenditure.
So, there is actually a decrease of 31/2% in personal emoluments due to reduction of civi lians as well as military staff concerned training of Local Defence with in the Corps, and also a reduction the Ahli Yang Berhormat dari kawasan Muar Utara ada mengatakan patut-lah Kerajaan menambahkan elaun Ketua2 Kampong kerana mereka itu di-kehen- daki membuat pekerjaan lebeh banyak di-bawah Gerakan Maju.

Soal elaun Ketua Kampong ini soal Kerajaan Negeri.


Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sung- goh-lah dengan ada-nya Gerakan Maju, Ketua2 Kampong, dan bukan sahaja Ketua2 Kampong bahkan semua Pega- wai2 Kerajaan, semua Ketua2, Wakil2 Ra'ayat pun termasok, di-kehendaki bekerja dengan lebeh giat lagi untok hendak menanam dan memasokkan 3607 28 JANUARY 1967 3608 semangat dan jiwa pembangunan yang sangat di-kehendaki di-dalam negara kita yang sedang menghadapi pem bangunan yang besar ini.
Jadi, dengan itu-lah bukan sahaja Ketua2 sebab Kampong yang di-kehendaki bekerja dengan giat, semua pehak di-kehendaki bekerja.

Jadi, soal elaun Ketua Kam pong terpulang-lah kapada Kerajaan Negeri.
Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Muar Utara dan juga dua tiga orang Ahli yang lain mengatakan bahawa dalam lapangan Pertahanan patut-lah kita mengkaji sa-mula Perjanjian Perta hanan dengan Britain ini dan patut-lah kita membuat Perjanjian Pertahanan dengan negeri2 yang berdekatan dengan kita saperti negeri Thai dan negeri2 yang lain.
saperti negara di-Pertua, Tuan Yang terangkan kapada Dewan ada dalam saya lapangan Pertahanan, ini, selalu tidak satu negara melainkan barangkali Amerika dan juga Russia yang boleh berdiri di-atas kaki-nya sendiri.

Kita sa-bagai negeri yang kechil mustahak-lah mendapat bantuan daripada dalam lapangan Pertahanan jika kita di-serang oleh pehak dari luar.
Dengan sa-berapa boleh kita akan mengadakan tentera yang chukup bagi menjaga Pertahanan dalam negeri, sa-bagaimana tetapi banyak pun kita akan membelanjakan wang dalam lapangan Pertahanan, tentu kita dapat mempertahankan negara kita dengan sempurna jika kita menghadapi serangan dari luar.

sahabat tidak Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya fikir ini- lah bahagian daripada jawapan saya tegoran2 yang di-datangkan kapada oleh Ahli2 Yang Berhormat.
Rakan2 saya Menteri2 yang lain terutama sa- kali Menteri Kewangan akan men- jawab berkenaan dengan hal Budget.
Tetapi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sa-belum saya dudok nyata-lah kapada kita semua bahawa tahun 1967 ia-itu tahun kita menchapai yang kemerdekaan dan negara kita Malay sia ini di-bawah pimpinan Kerajaan Perikatan telah-lah meningkat maju dari satu masa ka-satu masa dan telah mendapat nama yang harum dalam lapangan semua ka-sepuloh termasok lapangan jujor dan kebahagiaan telah menekmati faedah2 pembangunan.
Ra'ayat negeri ini dari semua bangsa telah dapat menekmati kema'amoran, yang mereka itu belum pernah nekmati lagi di-negara kita ini.

Jadi dengan sebab pentadbiran yang ikhlas, sa-benar2-nya memberi dasar yang faedah kapada ra'ayat negara kita ini mereka itu semenjak sa-puloh tahun kita mencha pai kemerdekaan.

Dengan sebab itu- lah mereka telah memberi sokongan yang penoh kapada Kerajaan Perikatan semenjak tahun 1955 dan saya yakin mereka terus memberi sokongan kapada Perikatan.
Dengan itu negara kita dan ra'ayat-nya akan ter- jamin untok menchapai kemajuan dan kema'amoran dan kesejahteraan yang berlebeh2 lagi pada masa yang akan datang.

Terima kaseh (Tepok).


akan itu The Minister of Home Affairs and Minister of Justice (Tun Dr Ismail): Mr Speaker, Sir, whenever Parliament meets, Members of the Opposition, without fail, always accuse the Govern ment of not practising democracy, or, if they are in a generous mood accuse the Government of whittling democracy in this country, and they quote various examples of why and how democracy is not working and how the Government is whittling democracy.
Now, Sir, these examples, I would like to inform the Honourable Mem bers, are abhorrent to the majority of the public in this country.
In fact, I am getting very worried, because whenever I talk to members of the public—the large section of the public we represent in this Parliament, because we have a very big majority in this House—the large section of the population in this country ask me as Minister of Internal Security and Minister of Home Affairs, why should I be so tolerant to these Honourable Members, who keep on abusing democracy this country?
They say that if I allow these Honour able Members to keep on abusing democracy in this country, they will demand that we don't have democracy in this country, because they say for democracy to work, it is not only for the Government to follow democratic practice but the Members of the Oppo sition themselves should be responsible in 3609 28 JANUARY 1967 3610 to intimidate and play a part in making'democracy work in this country.
I am not saying this the Honourable Members of the Opposition, but I say this because I am getting deeply con cerned, because the public say that we have had democracy for 10 years, and from the manner the Members of the Opposition behave, and the members of the intellectual section of our com munity in this country regard demo cracy, they regard it purely to further their own ends, to isolate themselves from the conditions in this country, then let us not have democracy in this country if that is how Members of the Opposition and intellectuals are trying to regard democracy in this country.
Sir, this is a very serious growing public opinion on this question of democracy, because if you look at the newly emergent countries one country after another had given up parliamentary democracy and resorted either to one- party government, or to some form or other forms of Government.

Now, we, in the Alliance Government, believe in this democracy, and we are trying to make it work, in spite of the non-co of from Members operation the the so-called from Opposition, and intellectuals of this country.
Now, Sir, after all, we in the Alliance Govern ment are politicians, practical politi cians.

We cannot ignore forever the demand of a large section of the public.

What we can do here is to try to guide public opinion, we try to convince public opinion that democracy is the best form of government.
But if we do the the co-operation not get Members of the Opposition, and from the intellectuals in this country, who seem to regard democracy as a means whereby they can abuse it or whereby they can live in ivory towers, then I am afraid it is very heavy going for the Alliance Government; and there may come a time when we may not have such liberal leaders as the Alliance are having now.
So, I would advise Honour able Members of the Opposition and intellectuals in this country to be more responsible in their concept of demo cracy, the conditions prevailing in this country.
into consideration taking from Now, Members of the Opposition know as well as I do that it is enshrined in our Constitution that there is such a thing as the power given to the Govern ment to enact emergency powers, and one of these Acts that has always been criticised by the Members of the Oppo sition in this House is the Internal Security Act.

They give an ingenious twist to the working of this Act.
Hon ourable Members of the Opposition know why it is necessary for a fledgling democracy like Malaya to have this Internal Security Act—it is because our freedom was won when communist subversion and militant communism were trying to destroy in this country and trying to hoist a Fascist form of communism in this country—and they know as well as we do on this side that, if we want to have democracy in this country, we must have the power to protect the fledgling democracy to see that it grows and mature into a fully fledged democracy.
But during this period, where we have been harassed by the communists, the militant form of communists, and where we are being harassed by the subversionists in this country, and until lately where we have been harassed by an enemy, who tried to conquer us, what do we get from Members of the Opposition?

They keep on trying to play politics in a dirty way to further their own ends.
Here, I am giving the Members of the Opposition an advice: that far from convincing the public that there is no democracy in this country, they are themselves trying to persuade the public not to have democracy in this country by their very antics.

Now7, let us see, as an example, what the Honourable Member for Ipoh has to say.

Sir, the Honourable Member in his speech quoted the case of Enche' Ahmad Boestamam.

I shall paraphrase what he said rather than quoting him.
Now, the Honourable Member enquired as to why it was necessary, to impose certain conditions on the release of Enche' Ahmad Boestamam, when the Honourable Member felt that the main reason for the release was that Enche' Ahmad Boestamam was no longer considered to be a security risk—the Honourable Member for Ipoh regarded 3611 28 JANUARY 1967 3612 the imposition of security restrictions as a blatant and gross deprivation of personal freedom and liberty.
trying to us by isolated from the powers given Now, Sir, unfortunately, the Honour able Member quoted a very bad case.

We all in this House know that even before the confrontation, Enche' Ahmad Boestamam was found conspiring with the enemy of the State.
Now, in any other country, with another form of government, Enche' Ahmad Boestamam would no longer be here—in this world; but we in this country, believing as we do in democracy and acting according to the Enche' Constitution, we Ahmad Boestamam to threaten the security of the country.

Why do we isolate him?

What is the purpose of this isolation or, as the Opposition Member would like to call it, detention?
Sir, the purpose of detention is to prevent a person acting in a manner prejudicial to the security of the country.

Now, the period of detention—or I would like to call it by a better custody, term protective because to protect the culprit from the public and also the public from the culprit—the protective period custody is determined by the degree that particular of person.
that even a person may not have undergone any substantial change of heart—while in detention the degree of threat he poses may be reduced but not entirely elimina ted as a result of the improvement in the overall security situation.

Under such circumstances, the Government has these words—the no intention—mark Government has no intention of impos ing undue hardship on a person by continuing to keep him in detention, and so he is released.
threat posed by It may happen of But at the same time the Govern ment has a duty to protect the interest of the people by ensuring that such a person does not, upon release, resort to the his old ways.

For Government has to impose such condi tions as are necessary to prevent a person from becoming once again a serious threat to security.
These condi tions are reviewed from time to time, and if the Government is satisfied that this reason, to then the person released is no longer a risk the conditions are to security, removed together.

Therefore, the case of Enche' Ahmad Boestamam will have to be viewed in this light.

It is on this case of Enche' Ahmad Boestamam that people have asked me: Why are we so generous these people who have been trying to help the enemy against the State?
Why are we so generous to these communists who try to destroy this us and causing hardship country?

Why are we so tolerant to Honourable Members, who seem to work together with the communists?

These are the things that the people of this country are asking, and why we are not doing our duty to them.
to Then, the Honourable Member for Ipoh, just to give an example that there was no freedom in this country, quoted the case of where the Registrar of Socie ties wrote to all guilds and associations on 14th November, 1966, asking these guilds that since their membership were not confined to citizens they should not enter into controversy over the language issue.
Now, the Honourable Member for Ipoh disputed that this is an accepted principle that only citizens may take part in the political affairs of a country.

Here again, Sir, this is the sort of thing that the people of this country are ask ing now.

Are we going to allow foreigners to interfere in the affairs of our country?

Once you have foreigners taking part in the politics of this coun try, then trouble starts.
Political parties that are weak tried to make use of the communists to bolster them up; political parties that are almost bankrupt try to get the support of foreign capital to support them.

That is why I say that in a newly emerging country, where we are going is to establish democracy, necessary that the politic of the country should be confined to the citizens of the country.
We are not preventing societies, whose membership is confined to the citizens of the country, from debating this language issue in a reasonable and democratic manner.

But what these people are trying to do in regard to this language issue is that they are trying to stir up trouble in this country, trying to cause disturbance so that, as the Prime Minister said, there will be bloodshed it 3613 28 JANUARY 1967 3614 and all that associated with rioting in this country.
there is no democracy Now, Sir, I really commend it to Honourable Members of the Opposition to think very carefully before they try to quote examples and make statements this that country, is whittling democracy, because I, as Minister of Home Affairs, we feel the pulse of public opinion in this country.

There is a growing section of public opinion that democracy may not be suitable to this country.
in this Government that Then we have, of course, the Honour able Enche' Stephen Yong, Member from Sarawak, and he stated that it would be quite easy to play up the threat of incursionists in Sarawak under the present combined border operation.

Subversion, according to the Honour able Member, needs the battle of the mind to counter and not by force.

Mass media, says the Honourable Member, like the Radio and T.V., should be used for this purpose.
He said that in Sara wak men and women had been arrested in the name of security.

He said that the people the moment asking for the rehabilitation programme in respect of these detainees; the Government, he said, has a negative attitude on this issue.

More funds would be needed to counter subversion.

in Sarawak are at Sir, first of all I do not agree that subversion should be countered only by winning the battle of the mind and not by force.
If we were to follow this advice, this country would be already in the hands of the communists of this country.

However, I agree with the Honourable Member that the battle of the mind also plays a very important part.

In this connection, I would like to add that in addition to the suggestion made by the Honourable Member about mass media like the radio and T.V.
should be used, I will go further and say that political parties themselves, if they consider that the subversionists are enemies of the country, should play their part in winning the battle of the mind of the people of this country— and not spending their energies in trying this to win communists country.
With respect, I think it is really to subvert regrettable that neither the Honourable Mr Stephen Yong, nor the Labour Party of Malaya, made any statement—I never heard any statement condemning those communists for subverting this country.

And, here, the Honourable Member is advising us to win the hearts and minds of the people and not to use force when he himself has never condemned the very communists who have been doing havoc to Sarawak.

Could we call the Honourable Member a patriot?


as Now, rehabilitation, regards Government has taken a positive step to secure the services of experts in the field of rehabilitation.

This is a specia lised form of work and after enquiry, I am happy to say that Government has already received certain recommenda tions in respect of individuals who are experts in this field, and it is hoped to employ this specialised officer in the very near future.
Now, Sir, the Honourable Mr Ong Kee Hui, I think, he belongs to the same political party as Mr Stephen Yong.

The Honourable Member has said that very little has been done by Government to rehabilitate political detainees in Sara wak, and that repressive measures are still the order of the day.

Sir, I do not accept the assertions of the Honourable Member that very little has been done by the Government to rehabilitate the detainees in Sarawak.
I said "detainees," because I do not regard that we have any political detainees in this country.

People, who are detained in this coun try, are not detained because they are politicians but because their actions are threatening the security of the country.

Sir, as I said, I do not regard this protective custody as repressive measure.
I regard it as a form of isolation—I think the Honourable Member opposite me who smiles at me, being a doctor, knows that when a person is afflicted with a disease it is better to isolate him, rather incon venience to members of the public.

This protective custody is a form of isolation and when we find that contagion is getting attenuated, to use a medical expression, Sir, we gradually release these people, who are taken into protec tive custody for their own safety and for the safety of the public.
to cause undue than 3615 28 JANUARY 1967 3616 Now the Honourable Member for learned member, of Ipoh, being a course, brought up the question about the courts in this country.

He mentioned a particular instance and I quote him in respect of an assumed case of corrup tion—he said: One day you go to the Court—assuming you are accused of, say, corruption—you are told,' "You come, you will be tried in Court No.

3.

Now, when your case comes up, you go to Court No.

3.

You sit and sit, nothing happens.


Suddenly a policeman comes along and says, 'well, you didn't appear in Court No.

5.

Here is a warrant of arrest.

I am now arresting you.'

The man goes to Court No.

5, and says, 'You told me last time that it is Court No.

3', and he says, 'Sorry, it is now Court No.

5.

Anyway, I excuse you.

Next time don't be without turning up!'

Whose fault is it?

You tell him, 'Court No.

3'; you change your mind and go to Court No.

5. and then you arrest that man."


is that the present practice Sir, this is a very dramatic way of putting things, and what I am told is that in summon cases there have been put in the numbers of Courts in the summons itself, in order to avoid complication, but in this case it was an arrest case, where the accused had been brought to the police station and released under bail.
Therefore, no proper instruction could have been given by the Police as the to which particular court accused should go to, except the usual direction that he should go to Court Hill.

The accused should have ap proached the proper person, that is the Court Clerk in any of the Courts and he would have been given the correct instructions, because all penal cases have always been heard in Court No.

3, and this Court has never been loaned.


The reason for this complica tion is that there is a shortage of court houses and action is being taken to remedy the situation by putting up two more court rooms.

Sir, I do not agree with this reply given by my officials, and I will give instruction that mem bers of the public must not be incon venienced because the officials cannot get on with one another.

I will see to it that remedy is effected at once.


Sir, I will now try to reply to obser vations of Members on this side of the bench.
I replied to Members of the Opposition first, not because I am them priority, but because I giving think it is better to dispose of the views made by the Opposition and then concentrate myself to observations made by Members of my own Party, because I am told that this is the prac tice of parliamentary democracy—that we should reply to the observations made by Members of the Opposition first.
Ahli dari Perlis Utara telah me- nyentoh perkara pendaftaran pelawat yang sekarang ini sedang di-uruskan oleh Kementerian Hal Ehwal Dalam Negeri.

Ahli Yang Berhormat itu menyatakan yang pendaftaran ini ada- lah satu tindakan yang bagus tetapi tidak-lah lengkap dan mengshorkan supaya bidang pendaftaran itu di-per- luaskan untok memasokkan ka-dalam- nya kawasan2 luar bandar.
Dia juga mengshorkan di- supaya kawasan2 luar bandar di-beri nombor2 dengan chara bilangan bersiri (series) dan juga supaya rumah2 itu di-beri 'alamat tetap.

Dia juga telah mengshor kan supaya semua-nya pengundi2 di- daftarkan.

Satu yuran yang kechil, kata-nya katakan-lah sa-ringgit, patut di-kenakan.
rumah2 Langkah2 yang di-shorkan oleh Yang Berhormat itu di-samping mengemas- kan lagi tujuan pendaftaran itu dari segi keselamatan akan juga menolong pehak berkuasa Jabatan Pos menyam- paikan surat2 kapada mereka yang tinggal di-kawasan2 luar bandar.

Me- ngikut beliau di-kawasan2 luar bandar, surat2 biasa-nya di-hantar dan di- simpan di-kedai2 untok di-pungut oleh mereka2 yang berkenaan dan juga untok di-pungut oleh Jabatan Pos yang di-hantarkan di- ka-'alamat tujukan.
yang Tuan Yang di-Pertua, mengikut ke- hendak Undang2 Peratoran Pendaftaran Pelawat2 hanya-lah hotel2 dan rumah2 tumpangan atau rumah2 persinggahan yang wajib menepati-nya.

sahaja letak-nya Tidak-lah di-kira di -mana hotel2 atau itu sama ada di-kawasan bandar atau pun luar bandar.
Untok memperluaskan lagi undang2 tujuan ke- ini dengan luar semua-nya rumah2 di-kawasan tumpangan rumah2 3617 28 JANUARY 1967 3618 dalam rumah2 bandar menepati kehendak peratoran2 tersebut, bagaimana yang di-chadang- kan oleh Ahli Yang Berhormat itu, pada pendapat saya, akan juga meliputi kawasan2 kesemua bandar.

Langkah ini ada-lah sa-rupa dengan tindakan yang telah di-ambil oleh Kerajaan sa-masa dharurat dan juga sa-masa konferantasi Indonesia dahulu.
Itu mengikut Undang2 Per atoran Pendaftaran Pengundi2.

Pe- ngshoran yang telah di-buat oleh Ahli Yang Berhormat itu ia-lah suatu per- kara yang tidak mungkin di-laksana- kan kerana ia-nya akan memerlukan jumlah wang yang kakitangan dan tidak-lah dapat besar, dan Kerajaan melaksanakan-nya memandangkan ka- pada keadaan kewangan negara pada masa sekarang.
chara Ahli Yang Berhormat, ia-itu wakil ra'ayat dari Perlis Utara mengemuka- kan satu pandangan berthabit dengan kera'ayatan orang2 yang berasal dari negeri2 asing.

Di-sini saya suka-lah ia-itu atas per- memberi keterangan kara ujian bahasa: Orang2 yang telah di-lahirkan dalam negeri asing yang memohon kera'ayatan dengan chara kewarganegaraan kemasok- an—"Citizenship by Naturalization"— di-bawah Fasal 19 Perlembagaan, di- kehendaki, antara lain, mempunyai' pengetahuan yang chukup di-dalam bahasa Melayu.
Mengikut Peratoran 8 dalam Peratoran Kewarganegaraan tahun 1964, tiap2 sa-orang yang me mohon untok menjadi ra'ayat di-bawah Fasal 19 Perlembagaan akan di-sifat- kan atau di-anggap sa-bagai sudah mempunyai pengetahuan yang lengkap dalam bahasa Melayu, jika sa-kira- nya Lembaga Bahasa berpendapat bahawa sa-saorang itu faseh bertutor dalam bahasa Melayu, dan jikalau tidak mempunyai kechachatan peng- lihatan atau kechachatan badan untok membacha dan menulis dalam bahasa kebangsaan dengan tulisan Jawi atau Rumi.
Pemohon2 yang bermastautin di- negeri Tanah Melayu pada Hari Mer- deka tidak-lah di-kehendaki meng- ambil ujian membacha dan menulis kebangsaan—mereka dalam di-kehendaki mengambil hanya-lah ujian bertutor sahaja.
Untok menepati bahasa tujuan ini, mereka mesti-lah boleh mengambil bahagian dalam perbin- changan, mithal-nya, tentang kejadian2 sa-tempat yang baharu sahaja berlaku dengan chukup untok menjelaskan apa yang di-maksudkan dan juga untok memahami apa yang di-perchakapkan kapada-nya; dalam perkataan lain, mereka mesti-lah faseh bertutor dalam bahasa kebangsaan.

Tidak-lah ada buku2 bahasa atau kertas2 ujian khas yang di-tetapkan dalam ujian bahasa kebangsaan itu.
Sharat2 dan kelulusan yang di-kehen daki untok mendapatkan kera'ayatan di-bawah Fasal 19 bagi pemohon2 yang di-lahirkan di-negeri asing, pemohon2 itu mesti-lah tidak kurang daripada 21 tahun umor-nya dan mesti-lah satu, bermastautin di-dalam Persekutuan sa- lama, pukul-rata, tidak kurang dari pada 10 tahun daripada 12 tahun sa- belum tarikh dia mengemukakan per- mohonan-nya.

Jangka masa ter- masok-lah masa 12 bulan sa-belum tarikh itu.
Dan yang kedua, jika sijil kera'ayatan itu di-beri, berhajat untok bermastautin di-negeri ini dengan tetap.

Dan ketiga, berkelakuan dan ber- perangai baik dan mempunyai chukup pengetahuan dalam bahasa kebang saan.

ini ada-lah Semua pemohon2 kewarganegaraan chara Kemasokan di-tapis oleh pehak polis untok menghindarkan mereka2 yang tidak di-ingini daripada mendapat kera'ayatan.
Pemohon2 untok mendapatan kera'ayatan dengan chara Kemasokan mesti-lah juga mengada- kan dua orang penyokong2 yang terdiri daripada warganegara untok men- jamin bahawa pemohon2 itu ber kelakuan dan berperangai baik dan ta'at setia.

Satu sijil kera'ayatan chara Ke masokan hanya akan di-beri kapada pemohon jika Kerajaan Persekutuan yakin dan berpuas hati yang ia-nya telah menchukupi kehendak2 yang ter sebut tadi.

Atas soal perluchutan kera'ayatan berdasarkan kesalahan2 berat.
Meng ikut kuat-kuasa 25 (i) (c) Perlem bagaan, Kerajaan Persekutuan berhak tiap2 memerentahkan kera'ayatan 3619 28 JANUARY 1967 3620 tahun, mulai dari warganegara yang mendapatkan ke- warganegaraan chara Kemasokan di- luchutkan jika sa-kira-nya Kerajaan berpuas hati yang ia-nya dalam masa lima tarikh pen- daftaran atau pengeluaran sijil itu, di- hukum penjara oleh mahkamah di- dalam negeri di-mana sa-kali pun sa- lama tidak kurang dari 12 bulan atau di-denda sa-banyak tidak kurang dari- pada $5,000 atau jumlah yang sa-laras itu—dan mengikut mata-wang negeri yang tidak dapat ampun daripada ke- salahan yang menyebabkan ia-nya di- hukum itu.
Jadi, itu-lah jawapan saya kapada Ahli Yang Berhormat itu.

orang2 yang Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Melaka Utara—Ahli Yang Berhormat men- chadangkan di-buang daerah di-tempatkan di-Pulau Besar, Melaka, supaya orang2 itu tidak dapat mempengarohi orang2 lain.
Saya suka- lah menyatakan, orang2 yang di-buang daerah itu sa-benar-nya-lah di-buang dari satu daerah di-mana ia telah me- lakukan sa-suatu kesalahan di-bawah Undang2 Penchegah Jenayah, "Preven tion dan of Crimes Ordinance" Undang2 Menghadkan Tempat Ke- diaman, "Restricted Residence Enact ment", dan pembuangan mereka itu ia-lah dengan tujuan supaya pengaroh mereka dapat di-batas dan tidak ber- kembangan.
Chadangan Yang Berhor mat supaya di-adakan satu daerah khas, mithal-nya, pulau yang di- tidak dapat di- itu, chakapkan-nya laksanakan kerana ini ada-lah ber- lawan dengan Perlembagaan.
Sunggoh pun demikian, Kerajaan pada masa ini, ia-itu Kementerian saya, ada-lah sedang memberi pertimbangan yang berat untok mengadakan ran- changan tanah khas, di-mana orang2 saperti ini bukan sahaja dapat di- tempatkan bahkan dapat mereka men- chari nafkah, mudahan2 dengan chara ini mereka akan berubah sikap mereka dan menjadi warganegara yang jujor.
Di-sini saya suka menegaskan, ada-lah menempatkan mereka itu dengan ran- changan yang saya telah nyatakan tadi hanya dapat di-laksanakan dengan per- setujuan orang2 itu sendiri.

satu happens that we have finished our report on how to tighten up the Anti-Corrup tion Agency to make it more efficient and, no doubt, very soon Members of this House and members of the public will see a more efficient Anti-Corruption Department.
Further than that I will not go, because the report has just been handed to me and I am convinced that once we implement that report the Anti- Corruption Agency would be a very effective agency of the Government.

The Honourable Tuan Geh Chong Keat—I think this is my last reply, and I am sorry to have taken so much time—refers to the Societies Act.

Now, Sir, according to him, under this law the maximum sum that would be paid to the beneficiary of a deceased member is $600.
He stated that in Penang some benefit societies paid out only $150 as advance for funeral expenses and the balance held back for final payment at a later date.

He argued that this is a meagre sum for funeral expenses and as a result the family of the deceased would suffer financial hardship.

He mentioned that there are some benefit societies in Kuala Lumpur which paid out advance at a higher rate, that is $400.
Now, Sir, societies accepting as members persons up to the age of 55 years are permitted to pay a maximum of $150.

In respect of members, who have contributed more than $150 before they die, the benefit to be paid on the death of such member may be the actual amount contributed by him plus a per centage—let us say, 10 per cent—of the as bonus.
For total example, if a member contributed a total sum of $180 to a society, the benefit to be paid in this case will be $180 plus $18 as bonus making a total sum of $198.

The average life expec tancy of a person of the age of 55 years is 15 years.

The average amount of contributions that will be paid by members entering a society at the age of 55 years is about $150, after deduc ting expenses for the working of the society.
contribution The Honourable Member for Penang Utara suggested that legislation on anti- corruption be tightened.

Now, Sir, it so Now, about the society in Selangor, alleged to have been permitted to pay a maximum of $400, this must be one 3621 28 JANUARY 1967 3622 of those societies which collects a con tribution of $2 per month from every member and does not admit persons above the age of 45 years.
I can assure the House that it is not the Registrar of Societies' practice to discriminate unfairly between societies: no favour has been shown to any society.

Sir, that is about all I have to reply to in regard to the Ministries for which I am responsible.

Mr (Deputy) Speaker: Meshuarat ini di-tanggohkan sa-lama 15 minit.

Sitting suspended at 11.21 a.m.

Sitting resumed at 11.40 a.m.

Debate resumed.


The Minister of Aigriculture and Co operatives (Tuan Haji Mohamed Ghazali bin Haji Jawi): Tuan Yang di- Pertua, saya chuma mengambil peluang menjawab satu perkara yang di-bangkit- kan oleh Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Kelantan Hilir.

Beliau hendak menge tahui mengapa-kah Lembaga Pemasa ran Hasil Pertanian tidak mengambil langkah yang tegas bagi melawan atau pun menghapuskan orang2 tengah yang pada masa ini, kata-nya, sangat kuat.
Kata-nya mengikut keterangan daripada akhbar, saya telah pun melancharkan di-Tanjong Marketing Rice Board sahaja.

Karang dan chuma di-sana Beliau ingin mengetahui mengapa-kah tidak di-adakan di- Perbadanan tempat2 yang lain.

Dan beliau juga telah pun menegor ia-itu Lembaga ini langkahan2-nya tidak menjalankan dengan jaya.
ini Sa-bagaimana Ahli Yang Berhormat sedia ma'alum FAMA atau Lembaga Pemasaran Hasil Pertanian Persekutuan telah pun di-tubohkan dengan tujuan supaya chara2 pemasaran yang 'adil dapat di-jalankan dan petani2 menerima harga2 yang baik bagi barang2 penge- luaran mereka.

FAMA telah pun di-tubohkan pada tahun 1965 dan pengambilan akhir pegawai2-nya telah pun di-jalankan pada 1966.
Sa-lepas tahun awal pegawai2 di-ambil, maka latehan telah pun di-beri kapada pegawai2 FAMA tahun sudah dan pada pertengahan pegawai2 ini telah pun menjalankan tugas mereka menyiasat dan mengkaji berkenaan dengan pemasaran hasil per tanian di-dalam negeri ini ia-itu dalam masaalah pemasaran padi, ikan, lada hitam, sayoran2 di-Sabah dan kopi di- Kuala Langat.
Hasil menurut daripada penyiasatan itu, laporan2 telah pun di-sampaikan kapada Lembaga Pemasaran, dan Lembaga Pe masaran telah pun menatap dan meng kaji serta membuat satu keputusan ia-itu pemasaran ini hendak-lah di-adakan di-beberapa buah tempat.

Mereka telah menchadangkan, pada permulaan ini, perbadanan pemasaran ini di-adakan daripada segi pemasaran padi dan ran- changan2 pemasaran telah pun di- chadangkan bagi Tanjong Karang, Krian, Pulau Pinang-Seberang Prai dan Perlis.
Manakala ranchangan2 itu Undang2 di-persetujukan FAMA, terpaksa-lah di-siarkan di- Warta Kerajaan dan perbicharaan ber kenaan dengan itu terpaksa di-adakan.

Perbicharaan atau pun hearing telah pun di-adakan dan hasil daripada itu Lembaga itu telah pun membuat cha- dangan kapada saya berkenaan dengan ini.
penubohan Sa-telah mengkajikan chadangan2 dan recommendations itu dan saya telah pun mempersetujukan bagi pertama kali- nya, kita akan mengadakan satu pilot scheme ia-itu pemasaran yang penoh akan di-adakan di-Tanjong Karang berkenaan dengan hasil-mahsul padi dan ranchangan chuma memberi lesen dan kawalan akan di-adakan bagi tiga ia-itu di-Krian, lain kawasan yang Pulau Pinang-Seberang Prai dan di- Perlis.
pemasaran badan2 Saya juga bersetuju ia-itu langkah ini tidak-lah sa-bagitu deras atau pun keras sa-bagaimana yang di-kehendaki oleh kebanyakan Ahli2 dan juga petani2 dalam negeri ini, kerana sa-boleh2-nya saya perchaya perbadanan itu di-tuboh kan sa-rentak di-seluroh negeri kita ini.
Tujuan, sa-bagaimana Ahli2 Yang Ber hormat sedia ma'alum, perkara ini ada- lah satu perkara yang rumit dan kita tidak ingin melihat ranchangan2 yang kita jalankan ini akan menerima jalan 3623 28 JANUARY 1967 3624 buntu atau kegagalan.

Maka terpaksa- lah kita mengadakan ranchangan per- mulaan atau pun pilot scheme dan sa- kira-nya ranchangan itu berjaya kelak, maka ini, akan dapat kita bawa atau kita luaskan di-seluroh negeri kita.
Tuan Mustapha bin Ahmad (Tanah Merah): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, nam- pak-nya meshuarat kita tidak chukup bilangan ahli—tidak chukup quorum.

(Divisional Bell rung; House coun ted; 26 Members present).

Tuan Haji Mohd.
Tuan Haji Mohd.

Ghazali bin Haji Jawi: Untok pengetahuan Ahli2 Yang Berhormat, peranchangan perbadanan pemasaran padi bagi Tanjong Karang dan tiga kawasan yang lain itu akan di-jalankan pada lhb Februari tahun ini dan pembelian padi yang mula akan di-jalankan di-kawasan Tanjong Karang ia-lah sa-masa padi di-tuai dalam bulan Mach tahun ini.
Sunggoh pun dalam masa itu juga kita tidak akan alpa dan tidak akan lalai daripada menjalankan siasatan dan kajian berkenaan dengan hasil2 yang lain dan dari satu masa ka- satu masa kita akan melancharkan ranchangan ini, bersama2 kita menumpu dan memerhatikan kejayaan dan ber sama2 kita berdo'a ka-atas kejayaan- nya (Tepok).
The Minister of Transport (Tan Sri Haji Sardon): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to reply to the Honourable Member for Dato Kramat, in respect of the observations and criticisms he made on the Railway Administration, touch ing on the advice of Justice Syed Sheh Barakbah on the revision of salary scales of the Railway Administration.
He said that the advice given was not adhered to and nothing has been done, that in 1966 we had the Malayan Rail way Economic Mission recommending certain changes of policy for improve ments, and that too was not imple mented, and instead we are now writing for experts from the United Nations to find ways and means of improving the Railway Administration.

He also ex plained the unsatisfactory situation of the Prai terminal, where passengers have to use the ferry to the railway station.
He also quoted delays by train for several hours and said that nothing was done to remedy repetition of this in spite of public protest.

it is concerned, Sir, that to me that Now, Sir, I would like to make it clear, as far as this Railway Adminis tration is obvious the Honourable Member from Dato' Kramat has not read Justice Syed Sheh Barakbah's Report, nor the Railway Economics Commission Report.
It is clear also that he is not at all aware of the actions the Railway Administration has taken on these reports.

In other words, he has not bothered to check his facts and, therefore, he has in fact been talking on subjects, which he does not know anything about.
Sir, Tuan Justice Syed Sheh Barakbah was appointed in December 1962 with terms of reference to inquire into the causes and the circumstances of the trade dispute between the Malayan Rail way Administration and those of its employees as represented by the Rail- waymen's Union of Malaya and the availability of machinery for the settle ment of such dispute, the use made of such machinery in this instance and to report.

This Report has been acted upon by the Malayan Railway Administra tion.
The Railway Economic Commission Report was appointed in March 1961, with terms of reference to inquire into the financial and economic position and prospects of the Malayan Railway, and to make recommendations regarding the role which it should play in the future economy of the Federation, whether in deciding such a role it could pay its way and if not how, if any, the defi ciency should be met, its capital struc ture and the terms in which loan funds should be provided by the Government.
All the recommendations of this Com mission except those relating to the renewals provision and the conversion of into a Corporation Aggregate has been acted upon by the Railway Administration.

The recom mendation regarding renewals contribu tion was referred to the Government and the Treasury rejected the Commission's recommendation on this.
The Railway agrees with the Government's rejection, and here it must be pointed out that the Railway 3625 28 JANUARY 1967 3626 none of the three men members from India are accountants and as such they are not qualified to make such recom mendations.

As regards the Commission's recom mendation to convert the Railway into a Corporation Aggregate, this has been accepted by the Government, but has not yet been implemented, as there has been a lot of dispute as to the status of Railway employees until recently.
In spite of that, my Ministry and the Railway Administration and the Legal Draftsmen have completed the final stage of the Bill.
In view of the advice from the World Bank expert who probably is prepared to help the Railway, if this Bill will incorporate a Corporation Aggregate to give more power to the Railway Administration, as it is not today, where the Govern ment because of pressure by RUM, because of the Court of Arbitration was sitting, because of the salary award to increase the salaries, as Railway em ployees are Government employees automatically their pays and relevant positions were also considered, and the Railway Administration has to find money and pay them; but the Railway Administration is not in a position to impose taxes like the Government.
The Railway Administration can borrow from the Government but still it has to repay the loan back with interest.

to sooner referred Talking about this Bill, I hope the final amendment to this Bill will soon be completed and the Government and I hope my colleagues in to the Cabinet will support me approve the final amendments of the Bill.
The this Corporation Aggregate is put into implementation the better will be the running of the Railway Administration, as this is the recommendation by the Railway experts to look into the economics future of the Railway, who had been here in 1962.

This has been delayed since 1962 and now it is 1967—almost four to five years.

Now, regarding the Prai terminal, the Honourable Member for Dato Kramat coming from Penang as he does, should be aware that the Railway is changing its terminal to Butterworth.
The new railway station at Butterworth is under construction and the progress is very satisfactory—I think it is almost com pleted now.

In any case, anybody wishing to cross over to Penang will still have to cross by the ferry for the time being.

to prepare statistics and There has been some confusion and misunderstanding about the true posi tion of Malayan Railway Administra tion.
This has been referred to in the debate where the Honourable Member for Ipoh speaking on the 24th January, 1967, criticised that the Minister of Transport is not taking early action in getting the Railway Administration to lessen probably the deficit and make a profit and to make the Railway Admi nistration efficient and not as it is today, running with a deficit of $9.4 million.
I have taken the trouble to get Malayan Railway Administration officials to give every year's return for the last five to ten years; and in fact in my reply recently it went to five pages, but these Honourable Members of the Opposi tion, so is the Honourable Member for Batu, they never rely on statistics for explanation, but instead they burst out in this Honourable House where they have the privilege to say anything under the sun, even to hit a person, who is not able to reply, under the belt.
The Member for Batu, I remember, asks me to sack the General Manager.

For what reasons?

I have given five pages of explanation that the fault is not with the Malayan Railway Admi nistration, the fault the General Manager, but that the fault is with the spiralling rise of salaries of the railway employees.

The Minister of Finance when introducing the Budget here explained that the cost of Govern ment administration of 32 per cent has risen up to 40 per cent—8 per cent increase.
Here, the Government can impose taxes to try to balance the Budget, to try whatever it can do, but on the other hand Malayan Railway Administration—whatever rise in the Government salaries is automatically a rise in salaries in the Railway Adminis tration also but the Malayan Railway taxes.

Administration cannot is not with impose 3627 28 JANUARY 1967 3628 I have already explained this.
There fore, the Railway Administration, particularly the General Manager and the senior officials, and those who are conscientious in their work had done their best to running condition which is of national importance, should be congratulated not criticised and not asked to resign for no fault of theirs.
the Railway to put to Sir, I appeal, particularly the leaders of the Opposition in this House, as my Honourable friend the Minister for Internal Affairs did just now, who has mentioned that democracy must be coupled with responsibility.
If leaders of the Opposition are not responsible, then democracy is a mockery and pro bably we have for guided democracy, or whatever democracy—I do not know; I for one do not want any other form of democracy, but the true democracy we understand in this House which is to respect the right of person who has got no chance to reply in this House should not be mentioned here, leave alone to be charged of something of a serious nature, and asking me to sack that person.
to go it out here: write The General Manager, according to the Railway Enactment, Section 2, is appointed by His Majesty the King on the recommendation of the Railway Services Commission.

So, if there is any gross negligence or a serious offence committed by the General Manager, do not blurt to the Prime Minister, write to me, dis closing what offences have been com mitted.

This is where, I say, democracy in this Honourable is being abused the House.
The thing with Honourable Member for Ipoh who said, "I ask the Minister of Transport to resign".

I quote here what he says on page 55 of the proceedings—"Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the whole answer boils down to one word—'failure' and as a consequence of the Minister of Transport resign?"

For what?

Just to satisfy him as the leader of the P.P.P.?

cheap publicity.

"Sardon asked to resign"—for what?


This is the kind of thing, when we have given five pages of explanations in detail as to that, will same why the Railway Administration has a deficit of $9.4 million.

Mr Speaker, Sir, all these years, even since 1961, except for the decline in the iron ore traffic, because many of the big mines have closed down, the Railway has been increasing its traffic and revenue every year.
In fact, I did mention that this year we made $2 million, but how can we make it com salaries mensurate the payment of this Is which have gone skyhigh?

inefficiency of the management?

People may ask, why I have explained in pages and pages.

Sir, I do hope Members of the Opposition, particularly the leaders of the Opposi tion, will give due respect those hard-working people, who try to keep our Railway going and serve Honour them are able Members—many of travelling by railways.
Instead of help ing we only hear all these allegations without any evidence whatsoever.

the deficit?

to leaders of is given by Now, as I said just now, I get the impression that many people, including some members of the public—I have the referred the two to P.P.P.

and the Labour leaders of Party—seem to think that the Railway Administration a Government is Department financed and controlled by the Government.

This is not so—not a cent the Government.


Whatever the Railway borrows from the Government, the Railways has to pay with interest.

In fact, they have got no say—there is no Government expenditures in Railway involved Administration as it is on autonomous authority.

I would like to repeat and clarify is not a Government Department.

It is corpora tion sole established under the Railway the Ordinance, 1948, under which General Manager the is defined as corporation sole.
In other words, the General Manager the Railway Administration, and he expects all his senior officers to help him, to guide him—and this includes all the railway employees, all the members of RUM who have been grumbling instead.

Everything they want, they have got and I appeal to them to give their best the Railway that is 3629 28 JANUARY 1967 3630 co-operation Railway a success, to make the Malayan the Railway Administration by present.
at that just now, asking me Sir, a few days ago I mentioned in this House that the Railway Adminis tration should be complimented for managing the Railway so creditably, despite the serious problems and diffi culties which it has to face from this year onwards.
I repeat that it is only right and proper the General Manager and his top lieutenants and those who have really and honestly given hard work and co-operation to make this Railway run should be com plimented, for the problems and diffi indeed they are facing are culties enormous.

Some Honourable Members even made outcries, as I have already mentioned to consider sacking the General Manager and all the rest of it, and asking me to resign and all the rest of it.
I take this as a man, I take this as a politician, I take this as a Member of Parliament; and everything said here I will reply, but in the case of anybody who has no right to be here to reply, please abstain from alleging anything against them.

I do not think that is fair.

In fact, I have been informed by the General Manager that the Honourable Member for Batu rang him up and apologised.
Also the Member for Ipoh the other day when he saw me, told me, "I am just pulling your leg," I said, if you dare, cut off from the estimate the sum $36,000 salary for Minister of Trans port for the year 1967".

I am waiting when the time comes.

Now, Sir, I would like to clarify again here in regard to the Railway Administration for purposes of record.
I would like to appeal to such Honour able Members to check all their facts first before forming hasty judgments or making any irresponsible outcries and allegations in this House: after all, they are Members of Parliament, they are given all the facts and figures from the Ministers, from the officials if they were they actually put up any questions, or before they speak in this Honourable House.
them before to ask for Now, let me clarify the various pro blems and difficulties which are faced that responsibility.

First, there is the problem of anoma lies in the responsibility and authority.
The General Manager of the Railway Administration as a corporation sole is charged with all responsibility of management but, on the other hand, he does not have the necessary powers to discharge For example, he has no authority to appoint or promote a staff he thinks suitable for far as discipline concerned, whatever disciplinary action he wants to take, or he may make, might also be revoked by another authority—the explanation is that promotion, taking in of new hands, have to go through the Railway Services Commission.
The General Manager is not given that power as it was before.

the various posts; as is Secondly, the Railway Administra tion is not a Government Department and, as such, it has to find and earn revenue to meet all its expenditures.

Now that the Railway employees have been declared as Government servants, the Railway Administration has no more say whatever as to what salaries or allowances are to be paid to the staff, or what increases are to be given to them from time to time.
The rate of increase of salaries of Railway staff is now determined by the Government; the their services are governed by Government General Orders; but responsibility to find the money to pay staff their salaries, or whatever increases in salaries or allowances, is thrust upon the General Manager.
I would like to repeat here the amount of salaries and allowances, that is excluding pensions and provident fund, during 1961 and 1962—the two years before the strike— and during recent years in 1965 and 1966: 1961—$29.6 million; 1962—$29.6 million—static; they made surplus in 1960; 1965— $36.4 million (it has jumped up almost by $7 million); 1966 (this is the last year with a deficit of $9.4 million)— the General $40.1 million.
Thirdly, Manager take to is also expected public and social interests into account train services.

in the planning two more the for 3631 28 JANUARY 1967 3632 Some of the services are quite un is not the Railway profitable, yet compensated for these losses.

Now I come back to the Honour able Member for Dato Kramat who criticised the Government for wasting expenditure by building lavish Govern ment buildings and luxury types of construction which do not meet the present needs.
He then quoted Subang Airport, our new Kuala Lumpur Inter national Airport, for example, which was expected to meet the needs of 20 or even 30 years to come.
The Honourable Member is not aware of, or I think he is so ignorant about, the supersonic age we are coming to: the jumbo-jets which will 500 passengers are coming through this way in another 2 years' time; and I am sure he is not aware that many coun tries now are short of landing strips which are not strong enough to take all these supersonic aircraft and jumbo- jets.

These countries will have to be rushing, planning, spending fortunes when they are pressed for time.
take After about six years of operation of the old airport near Salak South, it was found that it was not sufficient to meet the rapidly growing needs of civil aviation, civil air traffic, that there was no space to expand the old site.
Taking all factors into consideration, it was decided to build a completely new modern International Airport on the present site that would meet the needs of the country for at least 20 years to come—it is not only 20 years but the type of aircraft that we expect to come this way, and therefore bringing more international flights, bringing more revenue, bringing more business people, bringing more tourists and therefore developing, economically and generally, the whole country of Malaysia.
feet—actually runway 11,400 In planning the airport, considerable foresight was shown by constructing a it should be 12,000 feet long, but to show that we need probably just 11,400 feet we were prepared to cut off 600 feet.

The length is there—you can always lengthen it any time.
That shows that we are looking on the economic side of the whole construction to be capable also later travel, capable to have in America in operation airport the the longest runway of accepting supersonic aircrafts, which at that time were in the planning stage.

is The of accepting jumbo-jets which will take, as I said, 500 passengers.

It will be and Europe in 1968/1969, and which no doubt will operate through this region in the next few years.
In fact, Kuala Lumpur has in South-East Asia which is at a time the supersonic capable of accepting Concord aircraft which is expected to fly in 1968/1969.

Being aware of the rapid development of air it would have been very shortsighted and indeed, and indeed un very foolish economic, of the Government to build an airport to meet only present needs, and it at greater costs and to keep it up with development.
I am sure the Honour able Member for Dato Kramat, who just came back from Canada, after the Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference must have stopped at so many of the airports which and been improved.

The Subang Airport was built with the object of seeing to it that before the whole scheme was completed it would not be obsolete, in that it was too short and it was incap able of taking the number of passengers carried by all these big planes.
I think, instead of criticising the Government, the he should at Malaysian Government, particularly the Prime Minister, our beloved Tunku, who was the father of this particular international airport at Subang.

least congratulate to expand attending extended have Mr Speaker, Sir, now I come to the next controversial subject.

This is not from the Opposition this time but from one of our backbenchers.
This is per taining to the criticism levelled at the Penang Port Commission's engagement of the consultants.

In this session of the Dewan Ra'ayat on the 26th January, 1967, the Honourable Member for Bukit Bintang raised the question on the appointment of management consultants for the Penang Port Com the question mission.
In answer raised, the necessary information which will no doubt satisfy the Honourable Member and also clear I give below to 3633 28 JANUARY 1967 3634 any doubt and misunderstanding on the appointment.

I would appeal to my backbenchers, as Minister of Transport of the Alliance Government, that we are always acces sible.
They should be sure about the facts, rather than putting up some thing in Parliament the facts of which are wrong or out of date, as they always put me in an embarrassing position to put things right; but all the same, I give an assurance to all the Members for the future that I am here to clarify and in spite of all explana tions and clarifications if they still have anything to say, by all means raise it.
We are not going to stop you talking in this Parliament, because you have every right to voice your opinions, your views, and we would certainly respect constructive observations, and, if possible, we would certainly imple ment them.
to work Now, Sir, the Commission is employ two experts—they are not ing not "experts"—I am only repeating what the Honourable Member for Bukit Bintang said: the Commission is em ploying Messrs W. D. Scott & Co., a large firm of international management consultants, to investigate and report on the organisation and methods of the Penang Port Commission but not the construction, of ports—for good ness sake, don't forget that!

They have got their engineers too to advise them how best the Port.
This Company is at present also conducting assignments the Commonwealth Government Depart ment of Navy; in addition, they are concurrently conducting investigations into the workings of a New South Wales Maritime Services Board, which operates in the ports of Sydney, New castle, Botany Bay and Port Kesimber.
This particular firm, therefore, has a background of port organisation and methods and this is one of the reasons it was selected for a similar why investigation in Penang, and it is not two Australian experts being engaged by the Penang Port Commission.

I would like to make that observation.

Please correct the facts.


in Australia for lump sum their preliminary Now, the Company carried out free of charge a preliminary investigation in Penang during March, 1966, as a result of which they indicated from the results of investi gation only the possibility of economies of the order of $450,000 per annum.

That is a conservative estimate—just only a preliminary survey.
They indi cated that a proper investigation of the Penang Port Commission would last up to two years and would involve employment lengths of for various time of at least six specialists and that the including air fees, passages, air accommodation, would be $430,000—not as stated by the Honour able Member for Bukit Bintang, per annum, and not paying one man $14,000 which is more than the salary of our Prime Minister.

Why all this vituperation?


The Member for Bukit Bintang knows these experts in the world are sometimes paid 10 times more than many of the Prime Ministers, So, do not compare this with our Prime Minister.

It is a shame!

senior (Interruption).


Other executives of the company participate regularly in the programme and the consultants are supported by a Malay in sian management expert resident Kuala Lumpur and a world-wide organisation of people with various managerial skills, including economics or market research, staff and even engineers.

that some of economies amounting As at the 31st December, that is, after five months work in Penang, the management consultants have achieved to positive $164,000.
Please, Honourable Member for Bukit Bintang, make a note of it, will you—(Interruption)—the money that we have spent, and the money that we have saved in just a matter of few months?

It has indicated savings of the order of $535,000.

Most of these economies will be annually recurrent— it important for any authority which is not financed by the Government that it should see to this.
Thus the economies already achieved, or envisaged, outweigh the total cost of the present time, two management consultants of the total team of six have been working investigation.

Up is very, very to 3635 28 JANUARY 1967 3636 in Penang and have applied themselves to the organisation and working of the Traffic Department.
One consultant is a Bachelor of Science with Honours from Melbourne University and he has had wide managerial experience in a large Australian public utility concern, for cost where he was responsible production analysis.
economic and The other is a qualified accountant, like the Honourable Member for Bukit Bintang himself, a cost accountant and company secretary with wide experience in financial matters, clerical work simplification and costing with his parent company, and he has held a senior executive appointment in Aus tralia and Hong Kong.

It is not correct that the engagement period of the total investigation has been increased by three months.
At the middle of last year, a difficult position was created in the Commis sion by the resignation of one Mr Tan Seng Gin, the Chief Accountant and his Deputy, Mr Chan Heng Seng.

The Commission endeavoured to fill these posts by public advertisements without success.
As a stop-gap arrangement, the Commission had discussion with the firm of Messrs Tan Teh Hua & Co., whom Mr Tan Seng Gin has joined, with a view to this Company carrying on with the accountancy work of the Commission until a new Chief Accoun tant could be appointed.

The terms put forward by this firm of accountants were considered at a meeting of the Commission held on the 10th Novem ber, 1966, but it was decided that the fees asked by this firm were high.
The Commission the thereupon Management Accountant to co-ordinate the activities of the accounting depart ment until the appointment of a new Chief Accountant and this arrangement, had it continued, might have resulted in the period of engagement being extended, but not the time as suggested.
However, as a matter of fact, other the arrangements were made within Commission at the end of last year to sub-divide the work of the Accounts Branch, and it is not likely that the need the period of engagement of the Management Con sultants will arise.

for extending asked I will now deal with the visit of the the General Manager and one of Management Consultants to the United Kingdom and Europe at the beginning of this year.
Sir, Honourable Members of this House will be aware that the Penang Port Commission is now in the process of constructing six deep water wharves at Butterworth.

These wharves were designed to meet the requirements of the ships of the type which have called at Penang for many years.
However, during the last year, ship ping lines serving Malaysia and the Far East have been engaged in studies with a view to bringing into service container ships, which are now in service on the Atlantic and elsewhere in the world.

The introduction of these ships will revolutionise completely shipping and will necessitate substantial alterations in the layout of the port which they will serve.
The wharves have to be strengthened to carry the load weight of the containers and also, if the need arises, to carry a large crane which will weigh up to 400 tons.

In addition large areas will be required to accommodate containers on the land ward side of the Port.

It, therefore, follows that if the new Port at Butter- worth is to meet the requirements of the future, substantial the ships of modifications in engineering design and physical layout to the new wharves and port area are essential.
The Commis sion plans to modify Berths 4 and 5 at require Butterworth ments, and a decision must be made not later than March or April of this year and communicated to the Consult ing Engineers and the contractors.

If delay is occasioned to the contractors, the Commission will be involved in very heavy penalty fees.
The Commis the sion, therefore, decided to send General Manager and one of the Management Consultants on a quick visit following objectives : to ascertain the views of the shipping companies as to the extent to which the layout in Penang should be to visit container ports modified; already in operation in Great Britain and Europe to assist in the formulation of in for a suitable Penang.
In addition, if any substantial alteration in layout is necessary, the to Europe with to meet layout ideas these the 3637 28 JANUARY 1967 3638 itself the Government of approval of the Federal Republic of Germany is neces sary since this Government advances a substantial loan for this project.
The Penang Port Commission team, having satisfied the Commission that would be failing in its duty if it did not plan for the future, called on the German Credit Bank to give preli minary notice to the organisation of the possibility that these plans would be amended.

The team met and had very the members of the German Credit Bank on its way back from Europe.
The team did not visit Europe with a view in conventional itself to port operations but to acquaint itself with the new system of port operations, which have not yet been seen or operated in this part of the world or the Far East including Japan.
discussions with instructing useful Sir, this in appointing firm of management consultants, the Penang Port Commission has acted all through with a great sense of responsibility, in order to ensure that the Port of Penang will meet the future requirements of shipping and that its operations are conducted with the maximum efficiency and economy which, in due course, will be reflected in port charges.
In his Budget speech, the Honourable Minister of Finance emphasised this need in our Government service, and I am pleased to say that a statutory authority, like the Penang Port Commission within my Ministry, is one of the first in the country to take appropriate steps to achieve this end.

Sir, while I am I must as well also talking on .

.

.. this, Tuan Tan Toh Hong: On a point of clarification, Mr Speaker, Sir.
Doubt has been raised in this House whether the two experts had sufficient experience in port organisation, administration and operation so as to justify the big sums the firm of Australian paid.

While Management Consultants mentioned by the Honourable Minister, W. D. Scott, may be an old and established one, what the issue is whether the experts sent to do the work on the spot are experienced enough in port matters as to justify money spent on them.
the large sums of public The other point, under Standing Order 36 (9), since an ulterior motive is imputed on me as the Honourable Minister has seen fit to mention the name of Tan Toh Hua & Co., which is my brother's firm, I ask, under Standing Order 35 (4), that I may be heard again to offer explanation.

the Port What the Honourable Minister has brought up is completely irrelevant to the point at issue.
Tan Toh Hua & Co. was never and has never been a party to securing the contract for the improve administration, ment of organisation and operations.

If any one says so, it is obviously blatantly untrue.
However, in late September, 1966, long after the Australian experts had been appointed, out of the blue, the General Manager of the Port Commission himself personally rang up a partner of this firm to go the purpose of discussing professional assistance to the Commission and the Management Consultants, the foreign Management Consultants, to clear up the accounting difficulties.

This firm has never asked for the job, and I have correspondence here to prove it.
to Penang for Sir, I understand that in the early part of 1966, two firms of Management Consultants were asked to look into the improvement of the Port organisation, administration and operations.

One as the Honourable the Minister has said, is W. D. Scott of Australia, and the other I understand is the Associated Industrial Consultants represented by Messrs Hanafiah, Raslan and Ong, but the firm, represented by the reputable local firm Hanafiah, Raslan and Ong, was not selected to do the job.
Sub the sequent Australian Management Consultants, two local senior staffs of the Port Com mission namely, the Chief Accountant and the Deputy Chief Accountant resigned.

In the meantime, arrears and complications of accounting work in the Commission kept on piling up.
Some time late in September, 1966, Tan Toh Hua & Co. was approached by the the Port Commission Manager of personally to help them for a year to the appointment of to 3639 28 JANUARY 1967 3640 this accounting In addition, administration local accountants of sort out the arrears that had accumu lated and, in addition, to do the day-to day and duties that were previously done by the two senior the Commission.

firm undertook to train the accounting staff.


For all these accounting and extra services, this firm undertook to do so at a fee of $6,000 a month without any other additional benefits or pension senior rights.

The accountants have already cost to the Commission $3,000 to $4,000 per month or perhaps more including pension rights and other benefits.

resigned two to assist initiated by I must repeat that Tan Toh Hua & Co. has never asked for this job.

It was all done and the Port General Manager.


As I have said, I have correspondence here to prove this.

In addition to the above services, this firm was also asked the Australian Management Consultants from Australia, to render assistance to the Australian Management Consultants in respect of accounting matters arising out of the implementation of the various projects as stated in the Preliminary Report of the Australian Consultants submitted to the Commission.
Sir, any reasonable businessman will agree with me when I say that appropriate fees were suggested and that there is no justification or reason for this local firm to provide free services and assistance to a foreign firm of consultants which are paid very handsomely.

The firm's proposals were not accepted.

We have here an ironical example of foreign experts paid very handsomely to do a job by the Commission, which now suggested firm of this accountants to assist this team of so- called foreign experts.
local to Sir, as I have said in the debate on this matter on 26th January I have disclosed my professional interest as an accountant and that I have complied with Standing Order No.

35 (7).
35 (7).

is since the Commission The question, Sir, that we should all ask is an autonomous body—the Minister is not involved or responsible for the day-to day administration of the Commission— to is the Port Commission to ask explain and say whether what has been said in my speech the other day about the foreign consultants and the Com mission is true or not true.

To establish truth, perhaps the Honourable Minister may like to have a Commission of Inquiry to look into the whole matter.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Tan Sri Haji Sardon bin Haji Jubir: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am obliged to the Honourable Member for Bukit Bintang.

I understand that he disclosed his interest, but I was not in the House, when he made the speech.

I am here not to impute any motive to anybody at all.

Whatever has been forwarded to me is based on the Port Authority's report and instructions and, certainly, I will check into these and will com municate to the Honourable Member, Sir.
However, I do not know whether this House got jurisdiction over this Port Authority, which is not a Govern ment Department, but I will certainly enlighten the Honourable Member here.

In fact, I give an undertaking, if it is possible, for the Honourable Member for Bukit Bintang, who is my friend, together with the Port Management and all the members to have a clarification on all these things.

I am not imputing any motive.


In fact, I confirm, Sir, what the Honourable Member for Bukit Bintang said—that the Manager did send for Mr Tan, who was a former Chief Accountant, thinking that as he was a former Chief Accountant of Penang Port, he could help as he knew the work.

But the question arose about the fees and other arrangements, and I am not concerned about the business transaction.
I certainly can give an assurance to the Honourable Member for Bukit Bintang that we will meet— we should have met before he made observations in this House, and nothing would have happened.

Since I am on this, Sir, may I continue a bit more to clarify about Port Swettenham, because Port Swettenham is also looking into the efficiency of the running of the port and saving expendi ture as an autonomous authority, Sir.
The Port Swettenham Authority has appointed Messrs W. D. Scott & Co., the same firm as is employed by the 3641 28 JANUARY 1967 3642 inception.

During Penang Port Commission.

This Com pany made a preliminary survey free of charge in April, 1966, and advised the Authority that there were substantial areas in which economy could be effected.

The consultant estimated that take a complete investigation would about 15 to 18 months and would cost approximately about half a million dollars.
In appointing this firm, the Port Swettenham Authority appreciated the need for setting up the Port organisation on the line suitable to port operation as distinct from the railway set-up under which the Port had worked since its the period of intensive congestion at Port Swettenham, efficiency and economy had frequently to be sacrificed under the pressure of intense day-to-day working and organi sation, and the procedure had become somewhat cumbersome.
At the end of 1966, the consultants had achieved, or indicated, economies of approximately $196,000.

In both Penang and Port Swettenham, the Management Consul tants organisation has paralleled them by the setting up of organisations which will be manned exclusively by the port staff, who will be trained by the consul tants on such matter as organisation and methods, work duty, procedures, and co-ordinating planning.
Thus the benefit of the experience of the Management Consultants will be passed on to the local authorities on a continuing basis.

Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, will you give me a few more minutes to reply to a few observations of my back benchers?

The Honourable Member for Perlis Utara has asked for more quotas for taxis.

He can refer this to the State Advisory Taxis Committee which meets at least twice a year, it can make any the number of recommendations on taxis required in Perlis.
However, I must point out that there are already 64 taxis operating in a small State like Perlis and there are two bus services, one of which is owned by the Co operative Transport Organisation with bumiputra 100 per cent capital.

If more taxis are allocated, then these bus com panies would get less profit and pro bably they will be losing money.
Saya minta ma'af kerana saya ber- Inggeris Berkenaan dengan chakap saya minta-lah pehak Majlis Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Perlis berhubong Utara, dengan Penasehat Kereta2 Taxi di-Perlis—berapa hendak tambah tetapi sekarang ada 64 buah dan dua buah Sharikat bus ada di- sana; sa-buah bus itu daripada modal 100 peratus wang bumiputra sendiri.

Kalau banyak taxi, semua akan rugi, yang rugi itu bukan siapa anak bumi putra sendiri.
Berkenaan dengan gerabak keretapi yang lain memang-lah keretapi tiap2 tahun bermillion ada di-untokkan.

Tinggal lagi kalau ada apa2 chadangan berhubong tolong-lah yang dengan Manager Keretapi, kita akan jalankan ikhtiar.

baik, sudah pun Berkenaan dengan Ahli dari Johor Bahru Barat, berkenaan dengan hendak minta pelabohan, saya jawab.

Kita sekarang menunggukan pakar2 berkenaan dengan pelabohan2 supaya menyiasat bukan sahaja di- negeri Johor tetapi di-Pantai Timor.
tempat2 yang sesuai supaya tidak kita belanjakan banyak wang kemudian tidak boleh di-gunakan dan tidak ada kapal yang masok di-situ.

Dan saya dengan telah Kerajaan Negeri Johor.

Sa-buah jawa- tan-kuasa telah pun di-taja dan tidak berapa lama lagi akan bermeshuarat merundingkan macham mana yang baik hendak di-rundingkan berkenaan dengan pelabohan di-Johor Bahru kerana banyak ada barang2 muatan atau pun gudang2 yang hendak men- chantumkan motokar2 macham Fiat lain2 gudang2 dan di-Tampoi dan faktori2 lagi.
berhubong berusaha Saya faham itu sahaja-lah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya patut jawab.

Saya uchapkan banyak terima kaseh kapada Ahli2 Yang Berhormat yang telah memberi pandangan dan sokongan.

Bagitu-lah Kementerian Pengangkutan ini penoh dengan segala soalan2 tetapi insha' Allah kita bekerja bersama2, kita mendo'akan di- dalam negeri Malaysia ini.
Kita berani berchakap di-sini lebeh baik daripada negeri2 di- barangkali ada tak sekeliling negara kita ini, kalau perchaya pergi-lah melawat ka-negara2 perhubongan yang 3643 28 JANUARY 1967 3644 jiran2 kita dan apabila balek banding- kan sendiri.

Terima kaseh.

Tuan Abdul Rahman bin Ya'kub: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have only one or two points to reply to.
First, in regard to the question of fragmentation of estates raised by the Honourable Member for Ipoh, I would like to say that it is not strictly correct that up-to-date no legislation exists to control sub-division of estates.

In fact, as envisaged in Command Paper No.


29 of 1963, we have embodied in the National Land Code, in the form of section 135 and section 136 of the National Land Code, powers to control sub-division of estates, and the States in West Malaysia—Selangor, Perak, Johore, Trengganu and Kelantan— have already exercised these powers and have issued the necessary direc tions.
I feel, Sir, that the request for the introduction of a fresh or a new legislation to stop or control fragmen tation of estates is not quite justified at this stage, until we have fully satis fied ourselves that the present provi sions in the National Land Code are inadequate.

to Here, I would like to clarify one point, again, Mr Speaker, Sir namely, the use of the words "fragmentation" and "sub-division" of estate.

There has been confusion as to the meaning of "fragmentation" and also "sub-divi sion".
I would like to adopt the words used in Command Paper No.

29 of 1963, which were borrowed from Pro fessor Ungku Aziz's study of the prob lems in Malaya.

He calls "fragmenta tion" thus: "fragmentation" is taken to refer the possession by a single owner of two or more pieces of land which are located so far apart that they cannot be run economically as one unit".
The phrase "sub-division", on the other hand, taken in the light of its context in our is aptly terms of reference, defined by the Porfessor as the "pro cess of dividing up one piece of land into several pieces".

It would appear that many Honourable Members have been using the word "fragmentation" in the sense defined just now, namely, the they should have correctly used word "sub-division" rather than "frag this mentation".
We are watching problem very carefully, and every month we receive returns from the Ministry of Labour as to the effect of sub-division of estates.

In this connec tion, I would like to draw the attention of Honourable Members to a very illu minating article, or rather editorial, in the Eastern Sun on the 6th of January, 1967.

I think that is all I have got to say on fragmentation or sub-division of estates.
ia-lah lebeh elok Berkenaan dengan masaalah2 yang di-timbulkan oleh Ahli Yang Berhor- mat dari Jitra-Padang Terap, baru sahaja pagi ini tadi saya telah menga- dakan meshuarat dengan beberapa orang pembalak2 Melayu merunding- kan bagaimana chara mereka itu boleh di-bantu.
Jadi, nampak-nya banyak kerumitan2 timbul tentang bagaimana pembalak2 kechil yang ada 500 ekar, L000 ekar dan lain2 dapat di-bantu oleh Kerajaan, Polisi Kerajaan kita sa-benar-nya sa- saorang itu mendapat kawasan2 yang besar2 5,000, 6,000 ekar supaya senang dapat di-kerjakan, tetapi apabila chuma dapat 600 ekar, 500 ekar satu unit yang bukan economic, susah-lah kita hendak membantu.
Sama ada mereka patut di-benarkan untok mengexport kayu2 balak-nya keluar negeri atau pun tidak ada-lah memandang kapada keadaan prodaksi kayu2 balak dalam negeri surplus-nya.

jikalau ada harus kita melonggarkan sadikit atoran kita itu, tetapi jikalau negeri kita sen kayu2 diri berkehendakkan balak itu untok sawmill untok plywood lain2, maka and veener factory dan peratoran yang ada sekarang ini ya'ani kita tidak menggalakkan export kayu balak keluar negeri, akan terus kita jalankan.
semua ini, Bagaimana pun saya akan memanggil satu meshuarat pembalak2 kechil ber- jumpa dengan saya untok menimbang- kan masaalah ini daripada segi jangka yang panjang.
Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Bachok, telah berseru supaya kita Kelantan, 3645 28 JANUARY 1967 3646 jangan membenarkan export kayu ka- Singapura lagi kerana ini tidak akan menguntongkan kita, kita mengexport tidak mendapat kayu ka-Singapura jadi, elok-lah di- foreign exchange, export menerusi lain, tempat yang tetapi nampak-nya fahaman Ahli Yang itu bertentangan dengan Berhormat fahaman Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Kelantan Hilir yang telah complain di-dalam Dewan ini menyatakan Rail tidak ada wagon2 way administration yang boleh membawakan kayu balak ka-Singapura ini menyebabkan ke- susahan2 pembalak2 daripada Kelantan yang mahu menghantar kayu mereka ka-Singapura.
Jadi, saya suka-lah me- di- nerangkan perengkat ini tidak ada berniat untok menyekat export kayu ka-Singapura kerana kita tahu jikalau di-buat demi- kian banyak-lah kayu2 di-sini tidak dapat di-keluarkan di-mana2 tempat pun, sedangkan port facilities kita di- Malaya ini tidak bagitu menchukupi untok membenarkan semua pembalak2 di-sini mengexport daripada Malaya ini.
di-sini ia-itu kita Chuma sadikit sahaja yang hendak saya sentoh lagi mengenai seruan Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Sarawak ia-itu Yang Berhormat Enche' Edmund jikalau, kata beliau, Langgu supaya saya ada kehormatan lagi patut-lah saya meletakkan jawatan kerana ra'ayat Sarawak tidak ada keperchayaan pada saya.
Jadi, kalau untok menggunakan darjah kehormatan yang di-gunakan oleh Parti SNAP itu, maka saya tidak ingin akan menurunkan diri saya ka- level "standard of honour" yang di- tetapkan oleh SNAP kerana saya per- chaya ketua2 SNAP sendiri mempunyai standard of honour mereka sendiri yang membenarkan pemimpin2 mereka mabok di-khalayak ramai sa-hingga kapada mengeluarkan perkara yang bukan2 (saperti menunjok private part kapada pegawai2 Kerajaan dan sa- terus-nya).
Jadi, standard tidak guna kapada kita dalam Malaysia ini, boleh-lah di-gunakan dalam hutan2 rimba.

Tetapi untok negara yang telah civilise, yang telah merdeka, kita tidak menggunakan standard saperti itu.

itu Satu perkara lagi juga kebanyakan daripada Ahli2 daripada SNAP ini mempunyai sadikit sahaja undi dalam pilehanraya yang lepas tadi sunggoh pun mereka telah terpileh, mithal-nya, Yang Berhormat Kadam Kiai men dapat 369 undi.
Maka daripada men- itu dapat mewakili da'awa mereka seluroh ra'ayat Sarawak, sa-benar-nya dia dapat mewakili chuma 369 undi sahaja, Stephen Kalong Ningkan chuma mendapat undi 532 vote, kemudian pula Dato' Dunstan Mendawi 478 vote berbanding dengan undi yang saya dapat 553 vote.

Beberapa orang Ahli Yang Berhormat lain daripada Sarawak itu yang menang dalam Local Council chuma mendapat 75 undi, 60 undi, 80 undi.
Ini-lah chara District Council punya pilehan dahulu yang telah di-ator oleh Kerajaan British supaya kebanyakan daripada mereka yang naik ka-dalam Council Negri ada-lah terdiri daripada mereka yang dapat di-pusing2kan kepala, di-main- kan2 oleh pehak pegawai expatriate.

Saya memang terpaksa akan berhenti daripada jawatan apabila sampai masa- nya, tetapi kalau berhenti kerana hendak menyenangkan hati pehak Yang Berhormat itu, maka tidak-lah akan saya buat (Tepok).
ADJOURNMENT (MOTION) The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Tuan Senu bin Abdul Rahman): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That consideration of the business before the House be deferred and that the House do now adjourn.

Tuan Abdul-Rahman bin Ya'kub: Sir, I beg to second the motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved, That consideration of the business before the House be deferred and that the House do now adjourn.
Mr (Deputy) Speaker: The House is adjourned till 10.00 a.m. on Monday, 30th January, 1967.

Adjourned at 1.00 p.m.