Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698080359856.pdf (Sierra Leone)
OAU DRIVE, TOWER HILL, FREETOWN P A R L I A M E N T A R Y D E B A T E S ____ [HANSARD] ______________ OFFICIAL HANSARD REPORT FOURTH SESSION –FIRST MEETING THURSDAY, 26TH APRIL, 2022 SESSION – 2020/2021 OAU DRIVE, TOWER HILL, FREETOWN P A R L I A M E N T A R Y D E B A T E S ____ [HANSARD] ______________ OFFICIAL HANSARD REPORT VOLUME: I NUMBER: 56 First Meeting of the Fourth Session of the Fifth Parliament of the Second Republic of Sierra Leone.
Proceedings of the Sitting of the House held Thursday, 26th April, 2022.

2 CONTENT I. PRAYERS II.

RECORD OF VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS FOR THE PARLIAMENTARY SITTING HELD ON THURSDAY 21ST APRIL, 2022 III ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER IV LAYING OF PAPER: THE LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS CONTRACT BETWEEN THE MINISTRY OF INFORMATION AND COMMUNICATIONS AND ZOODLABS (SL) LTD. FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF THE CABLE LANDING STATION.

V. MOTION OF THE COMMITTEE ON APPOINTMENTS AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE PROPOSER: HON.
MATHEW S. NYUMA SECONDER: HON.

SAA EMERSON LAMINA Be it Resolved: That the Ninth Report of the Fourth Session of the Committee on Appointments and the Public Service be adopted by the House and the recommendations contained therein be approved.
3 THE CHAMBER OF PARLIAMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SIERRA LEONE Official Hansard Report of the Proceedings of the House _____________________________________________________________ FOURTH SESSION – FIRST MEETING OF THE FIFTH PARLIAMENT OF THE SECOND REPUBLIC _____________________________ Thursday, 26th April, 2022.

I. PRAYERS [The Table Clerk, Mrs Bintu Weston, read the Prayers] [The House met at 10:00 a.m. in Parliament Building, Tower Hill, Freetown] [The Speaker, Hon.
Dr Chernor Abass Bundu in the Chair] The House was called to Order 4 Suspension of S. O.

5[2] COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHAIR HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Speaker, I want to amend the Order Paper.

I move that we amend item [IV] Laying of Papers, instead of the Minister of Information and Communications it will be the Leader of Government Business to do the laying of paper.

Thank you.

I so move.

THE SPEAKER: Any Seconder?

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I so second Mr Speaker.


[Question Proposed, Put and Agreed To] [The Motion moved by the Leader of Government Business has been carried] II.

RECORD OF VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS FOR THE PARLIAMENTARY SITTING HELD ON THURSDAY 21ST APRIL, 2022 THE SPEAKER: Honourable Members, we shall now consider our record of Votes and Proceedings starting from page 5, any amendments?

Page 6?

Page 7?

Page 8?

Page 9?

Page 10?


Can someone please move for the adoption of the record of Votes and Proceedings for the parliamentary sitting held on Thursday 21st April, 2022?

HON.

BRIMA MANSARAY: I so move Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: Any Seconder?

HON.

JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: I so second Mr Speaker.
[Question Proposed, Put and Agreed to] [Record of votes and proceedings for the parliamentary sitting held on Thursday 21st April, 2022 has been adopted] III ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER THE SPEAKER: Honourable Members, in keeping with my previous announcement it is being planned that at the Open Day of Parliament which should be starting from the 5th on to the 7th of May and which would be graced by His Excellency the President, we 5 shall take the opportunity to invite him to unveil the plaque for the renovation of Parliament.
At the last sitting some Members expressed reservations about the nature and quality of work carried out in their offices.

Following those reservations, I directed the Engineer to pay a visit and to pay particular attention to the officers concerned.

I received a call this morning from the Engineer that she has complied with the instructions given and whatever little adjustments were required had been carried out.
I hope that is the case if it is not the case then please liaise with the Engineer if you still have difficulties in your offices to get the job done and to be done satisfactorily so that the President would be invited to unveil the plaque during the Open Day ceremony and that would virtually bring to a close the renovation works of Parliament.

HON.
HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, we have noticed that this work is still yet to be completed, I don’t know why the rush because we have waited on them for quite some time and as a Parliament we have not seen the specification of the renovation that should be done.

There is no way we can assess them if we don’t know the content of renovation.
These are donor funds and they are not doing us any favour so we are supposed to know what they are supposed to do and we use that to test if they have done the correct job.

They are not doing us any favour as a Parliament, they had been contracted and they are supposed to deliver.

We should see the specification of the job that is supposed to be done Mr Speaker, so they should not rush in completing the work.
We should see what they are supposed to do and we verify exactly what is in the document Mr Speaker.

Some of us are not pleased with the work.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER: Very well, we have a Works Committee.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Thankfully Mr Speaker, I am the Chairman of the Works Committee.

THE SPEAKER: So do your job.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Exactly, that is what I am doing that we should see the specification of the rehabilitation that was supposed to be done.
6 THE SPEAKER: Okay, shall we then refer this particular matter to the Works Committee to meet with the Engineers and the Contractors and to report to this House.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Thank you Mr Speaker, so you put it as a question so it can be carried by this Parliament.

THE SPEAKER: And we need a timeline to that particular assignment.

I want to give you the opportunity to suggest a timeline since you are the Chairperson of that Committee.

HON.
HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Speaker, because of time I would advise we differ the completion date so that you give us an ample time to look into the work that have been done because we would be asking for documents that we would verify.

So I want you to give us two weeks after the opening of Parliament.

That would be an ample time because we have to do a lot of interface between us and them Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: I have no difficulty with that.


In light of your suggestion, are you then saying that the unveiling of the plaque has to be differed?

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I don’t know the arrangement made so far Mr Speaker but as a Parliament I think we are still not satisfied with this work.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Speaker, in line with what you have said, for every contract awarded there is what we called retention period so we look for that period where even after the unveiling of the plaque we still have to do our own auditing in terms of right structures in line with the renovation to make sure that due diligence is being carried out during the construction and beyond that, let me tell you so many items were stolen during this renovation.

THE SPEAKER: That’s correct.

HON.


MATHEW S. NYUMA: So I want us to investigate that one too.

So that is just the tip of the ice bag telling us about the maintenance or renovation of this Parliament.

The other thing, I don’t know maybe it was an oversight but we are not in compliance with Section 118 of the Constitution.

We did not lay that document here for the 7 renovation of this Parliament, it was not laid.
I think that was the fault of everybody in this House we did not do that one now we are seeing the effect.

THE SPEAKER: You are making an allegation and a conclusion at the same time.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes, we did not lay that document.

It was supposed to be laid after our meetings at the PSC so that Members can have a look at the contract.

Now we are struggling and it started in 2018 or 2019.

Mr Speaker, I think we have given the power to the Chairman of the Committee to do the investigation.
THE SPEAKER: I don’t know whether your 118 deals with that.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: It was a gift to us to renovate our Parliament.

THE SPEAKER: Yes, but read 118 carefully I see no relevance with that.

It is not an Agreement for a Loan, it is a Grant.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Speaker, it was a Grant.

Mr Speaker, there are certain Grants you have conditions attached, we agreed the last time.

We have done that on several occasions.


There are Grants with conditions, you made that ruling, I can still remember.

You said there are Grants with conditions because of that every Grant must be laid in this Parliament.

There was an argument the last time that if Grants are having conditions we can lay without saying anything.

But we should have an idea of what is going on in line with the construction or renovation of this building.

That was a ruling you passed, please check the Hansard.
I have argued that one times without number, I even said you should not lay Grants.

It is your ruling but you are now saying the Chairman of the Works Committee to investigate the matter.

THE SPEAKER: It is a different matter that I am asking the Chairman to investigate not what you are alluding to.

We are on two different levels.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No, we are not, he is also asking that they need to have the BOQ.
He made mention of the BOQ, I say they are not even aware they want to see what entails in the contract.

So if he is going that far it means something was left out somewhere but we have passed that point.

8 THE SPEAKER: Okay, shall we then ask the Chairperson of the Works Committee who happens to be the Deputy Leader of Government Business to liaise with the Clerk of Parliament with regards to the works that have been done under the renovation agreement and report to this House at our next sitting?

HON.
HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I don’t understand Sir.

Am I liaising with the Clerk or I should work in tandem with the Clerk’s Office so we talk to the Contractors to know what have been done?

THE SPEAKER: It’s the Clerk’s Office and the Contractors.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Exactly.

THE SPEAKER: That’s what I said.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: So next week would not be proper Mr Speaker because when we call the contractors they would have to give us documents which we would have to study and verify Mr Speaker.
THE SPEAKER: But there has to be a time line.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I don’t know why they are rushing to unveil the plaque Mr Speaker.

We would not want a situation in which the President would come and unveil and at the end of the day we notice the work is poorly done that would be very embarrassing to us.

THE SPEAKER: Well I am advised that a letter had been issued to State House inviting Mr President to unveil the plaque.

I had just been advised that this has been done.

HON.
HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I don’t know on whose advice Mr Speaker because one thing I want to bring to your attention also is, most of us in the Leadership are not part of the PSC so when decisions are reached it should be communicated to other Members of the Leadership who are not part of the PSC.

THE SPEAKER: It is not a PSC decision either and I am Chairman of the PSC.

9 HON.
9 HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I don’t know who advised you Mr Speaker because we are all part of the Leadership as I am standing here as the Deputy Leader of this House Mr Speaker, I have no clue.

THE SPEAKER: We would suspend this matter until further investigation is done.

I am also not aware of the time nor the content of the letter that was issued.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: But we are not suspending our own investigation as Works Committee.

THE SPEAKER: No we would come back to this issue.


I have just asked the Director of Legislative Department to provide me with further information.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: How can a letter leave this Parliament to State House without you seeing it Mr Speaker?

THE SPEAKER: Well I am saying that I did not see that letter.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Thank you.

THE SPEAKER: You want me to admit to something that I know nothing about.

We shall return to this issue in due course.


Before I close this particular matter is there any other Member who belongs to the Leadership who raised concerns about the works done in their offices the last time that wish to bring us up to speed on what they have now discovered?

HON.

HASSAN A. SESAY: Mr Speaker, I raised the issue but what I was told is that because my office is a makeshift office they are not going to touch it.

THE SPEAKER: Your office is what?

HON.


HASSAN A. SESAY: Is a makeshift office.

It might surprise you to know that of all the offices downstairs I have none there.

They say because it is a created one they are not going to touch it because it is not part of the scope of work.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Speaker, we want the Opposition Whip to be very close to God.

You know when you are up you get closer to God and he is fasting.
But on a more serious note Mr Speaker, I talked about the retention period for every 10 contract given and we have gone through that.

Now you have given instruction to the Chairman of the Works Committee to do further investigation giving him the TOR.

If you say you are going to go into the intricacies of this contract, what has been done it would not be good.

HON.

ABUBAKAR FOFANAH: Mr Speaker Point of Order.

HON.


MATHEW S. NYUMA: As I said looking at it in the Plenary now will bring so many issues and questions that you are unable to answer.

So at this time it is not prudent so you are giving the instruction to the Chairman to do further investigation which I will add that there should be an engineering auditing of this particular renovation.

So I know there is a whole story between you and the UNOPS.

THE SPEAKER: Not UNOPS but the European Union.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Oh the European Union, fine.

So we don’t want to go right into that at this moment.

Give the instructions to the Chairman of the Committee which you have done as the presiding officer and as Speaker of this House let us leave it at that point and we wait for the report to come.

So we delve with the issues where we ask questions and get answers for those questions.

THE SPEAKER: I am inclined to agree but there should be a timeline it cannot be open ended.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: It will be two weeks after State Opening.

THE SPEAKER: Very well then, let it be recorded.

HON ABUBAKAR FOFANAH: Mr Speaker, Point of Order.

THE SPEAKER: Yes.

HON.

ABUBAKAR FOFANAH: Thank you Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: On what we have just concluded?

HON.

ABUBAKAR FOFANAH: Yes Sir.

This is coming from the C4C angle Mr Speaker.

I was just going through Section 118[7] of the Constitution.
Mr Speaker, whether it is a 11 Grant or Loan I think it should be laid on the Table of this House.

That gives this House the mandate to investigate those funds.
Mr Speaker, the point of the issue here is, some of these donor partners called these monies Grants or whatsoever but at the end of the day they go to Brussels or to New York and tell their donor partners there that they have spent Billions of Dollars in Sierra Leone so as a country or as a Parliament we have that mandate to investigate some of these funds.

Mr Speaker, we are not Contractors but we are preview to construction, go around this building and see, look at the concretes they are all cracked.
The walkway leading to the New Building even the timber they used for that walkway is a substandard timber.

So I just want to say as a Parliament nobody wrote a letter to invite us to come to this Parliament to represent our people, we came here because people voted for us and I want to borrow this word from the Deputy Leader of Government Business, he always say we don’t want excuses from Ministers when we confirm them in this House.
So we also don’t want excuses from Grants because it is Sierra Leonean money they should use those monies judiciously because those monies are monies that they are going to also say in Brussels and in New York that these are the Grants that we have spent in Sierra Leone.

Mr Speaker, the most dangerous thing before the construction started here, they should have presented to us what is in the budget and what they are going to do, even the toilets don’t have running water.
So we cannot just say we leave this in the hands of the Deputy Leader of Government Business, let’s make the Committee across Party lines please Mr Speaker.

We would support the Deputy Leader to investigate this particular construction but it is not well done, it is a substandard job and we are not going to accept it as a country and as a Parliament.

Thank you Mr Speaker [Applause].

THE SPEAKER: Okay hold on.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Speaker… THE SPEAKER: Hold on one second.
We have concluded this matter, all the points that you have raised are very pertinent.

The points you have raised are extremely pertinent, I can tell you that I have also had caused to raise concerns about the quality of work done in my own office on several occasions.
But let us be methodical the way 12 we are going to approach this, we have mandated the Chairperson of the Works Committee to take up the task of looking into this matter and bringing a report to us two weeks after the State Opening, let us wait for that report to come.

I am sure he is here; he will take note of the concerns that are being expressed in carrying out that task.

We would look at the report that he would present to us and take a decision one way or the other.
Let us be methodical, we have assigned this assignment to the Chairman of the Works Committee let us leave it at that for the time being.
Yes, everything else is in abeyance until we conclude this matter, there would be no unveiling of any plaque and we as the beneficiaries of the Grant, we will examine the quality of the work that has been given to us but let us do so in a methodical manner and wait for the report to be presented by the Works Committee through its Chairman and then we take it up from there.

I hope that is agreed.

Thank you.

Shall we proceed please?

IV PAPER LAID: THE LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS HON.
MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, I beg to lay on the Table of this House: CONTRACT BETWEEN THE MINISTRY OF INFORMATION AND COMMUNICATIONS AND ZOODLABS (SL) LTD. FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF THE CABLE LANDING STATION HON.

HASSAN A. SESAY: Mr Speaker, today we are finally receiving this document so now that we have it in our hands we have to debate this document and Mr Speaker, I want to say something about this document.
You know for quite some time now people have been getting away with documents in the communication industry, it used to be a very viable source of Government revenue but because of this wishy-washy arrangement that people come with and they fail to do the needful to inform people properly.

THE SPEAKER: I’ll rule you out of order.

13 HON.

HASSAN A. SESAY: Okay.

THE SPEAKER: You know let us be careful, we have demanded this report, I think there is another report too if I remember that is yet to come.
For the first time one of the Reports has been laid on the Table of the House it is now left with us to read the Report and debate it later but don’t jump into the conclusion by saying it’s wishy- washy.

HON.

HASSAN A. SESAY: Okay I withdraw Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: Thank you.

HON.

HASSAN A. SESAY: I move that this document be debated in this House.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: I don’t know if it is the level of excitement the overzealousness of my elder brother on the other side but he knows very well that when documents are laid they must be ratified so we have laid that one and we have to ratify it.

It is left with the business of this House.

THE SPEAKER: I heard him saying wishy-washy, I was concerned about that.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: I think he withdrew.

THE SPEAKER: He has withdrawn so let’s leave it at that.
When we come to ratify or consider the Motion for ratification then you would have an opportunity to express your view and your opinion about the content of the Agreement.

V. MOTION OF THE COMMITTEE ON APPOINTMENTS AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE PROPOSER: HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA SECONDER: HON.

SAA EMERSON LAMINA Be it resolved: That the Ninth Report of the Fourth Session of the Committee on Appointments and the Public Service be adopted by the House and the recommendations contained therein be approved.

14 HON.
14 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Speaker, Honourable Colleagues, Fourth Session of the Fifth Parliament of the Second Republic of Sierra Leone, Ninth Report of the Committee on Appointments and the Public Service on parliamentary vetting of Presidential nominations.

Mr Speaker, you should be paying attention to certain people when they are saying something through undertone, it is very important for lubricating the House especially for you, that is your lubricant you know.
THE SPEAKER: Go ahead and draw my attention.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No, I want to be very limited in the description.

I just said you have a very good lubricant in the House; you need to be paying attention to her undertones.

I paid attention to her very keenly so I stopped reading.

THE SPEAKER: Did you use the feminine gender?

I just want to narrow my investigation.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes of course I did.


Did you recognise that voice because it was very sweet so I stopped I wanted to get your attention for proper lubrication.

THE SPEAKER: I don’t know what happened to you overnight but you appear to be very mischievous this morning.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Speaker your interest is my interest.

THE SPEAKER: Are you sure?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: I protect your interest.

THE SPEAKER: Okay.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: 1.


Introduction Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, the Committee on Appointments and the Public Service, in tandem with its constitutional obligations met on Monday 25th April 2022 15 and interviewed two Presidential nominees for the following positions: i) Chairman, Nuclear Safety and Radiation Protection Authority [NSRPA] and [ii], One member Statistics Sierra Leone Council [SSLC].

2.
2.

Procedure The Committee maintained as usual, strict consistency with its usual established procedure and interviewed the aforesaid Nominees on issues pertaining to their educational background to ensure that they have the relevant education and necessary backup experience to hold such important offices of State.
Several probing questions put to the Nominees covered wide-ranging issues relating to required track records in pertinent work situations, declared assets, tax obligations and vision for a nationally productive tenure.

Issues of unsuitability or otherwise were strictly looked into by the Committee.

3.
3.

Tenth Sitting of the Committee on Monday 11th April 2022 The following Presidential Nominees were interviewed on Oath: i. Mr Josephus Kongo, - Proposed Chairman, Nuclear Safety and Radiation Protection Authority [NSRPA] Mr Josephus Kongo is a retired Civil Servant and Educationist and a professional nuclear and radiation specialist that contributed immensely in the establishment of the current institution on nuclear safety and radiation protection.
His long sojourn at the Ministry of Energy, leverage his interest for radiation protection and worked assiduously as Sierra Leone’s Focal person in 2006 to the International Atomic Energy Agency [IAEA] that enabled him acquire relevant knowledge on the development of regulations, authorisation and inspection of radiation sources.

With these expertise the Nominee in the same year drafted the Nuclear Safety and Protection Bill that later became the 2012 Act of Parliament.
16 He served as the first Executive Secretary 2006 to 2017 providing visionary leadership especially in linking and coordinating Government policy with the IAEA and other entities both national and international which has made the NSRPA what it is today.
Responding to the Committee on what he hopes to bring in again to the ASRPA, the Nominee said his long standing expertise was still required to mentor the young staff and to further use his influence to move the Authority and the Board towards an enviable delivery stratum that would promote required policies in consonance with national Government agenda.

He concluded that basic infrastructure and funding were still problems to equate the institution to others in the sub-region.

ii.
ii.

Mr Kelie Samura - Proposed member Statistics Sierra Leone Council [SSLC].

Mr Kalie Samura hails from Sulima in the Falaba District.

He is a teacher and Agriculturist and activist and mobilizer for community development aspirations.

His passion to lead youths and compliment authorities development strides has made him renowned among his peers and elders in the District.
On his assignment as Council member for the Statistics in the North-East, the Nominees said it was an awesome experience that would give him real opportunity to contribute to wholesome building of socio-economic data that would form the basis of growth for the new Falaba District.

He concluded “my interaction with other council members will provide a learning platform, foster team work that will help the Statistics Sierra Leone deliver on its mandate”.
4 Recommendations Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, the Committee adjudged the following Presidential Nominees to be adequately qualified for their proposed appointments and are recommended to the House for approval: 17 i. Mr Josephus Kongo - Proposed Chairman, Nuclear Safety and Radiation Protection Authority [NSRPA] ii.

Mr Kelie Samura - Proposed Member Statistics Sierra Leone Council [SSLC].

Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, the Ninth Report reflects the unanimous view of the Committee.
I therefore move that the Ninth Report of the Fourth Session of the Committee on Appointments and the Public Service be adopted by the House and that the recommendations contained therein be approved.

Signed, submitted, read by Hon.

Mathew Sahr Nyuma, Chairman and Leader of Government Business THE SPEAKER: I thank the Leader of Government Business I notice that there is no connection with Dominion University.

Any Seconder to the Motion?

HON.

SAA EMERSON LAMINA: I so second Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: Honourable Members, the Honourable Member from Makeni City you are overly excited today.

HON.

CATHERINE ZAINAB TARAWALLY: I was at the interview of this gentleman yesterday I was at the corner side of the room so I enjoyed his reaction so much.

THE SPEAKER: And it has flowed over.

HON.

CATHERINE ZAINAB TARAWALLY: Over to this day so that is the reason why I am so over excited.

[Question Proposed Put and Agreed To] HON.


SAA EMERSON LAMINA: Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, thanking H.E the President for an admirable appointment of these two Nominees.

I admired the Nominees and I admired H.E the President for looking at the length and breadth of Sierra Leone bringing citizens that are credible enough to serve.
When I watched at the 18 Agenda for Prosperity document years back, I realized that getting an appointee from Moyamba which was a deprived District in terms of development and bringing Falaba under the New Direction medium term development almost last to development bringing these two citizens together I really admired His Excellency the President in fulfilment of Section 61 of the 1991 Constitution bringing on board helps a lot.
I want you to know that you are the luckiest among the almost eight million Sierra Leoneans.

Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, Josephus Kongo and Keli Samura are fine citizens.

During my four years of sojourn in this Parliament I have realized that Laws are made through; Domestication of international Treaties, Ratification of document from the Executive, Laws coming from MDA’s, Private Members also make Laws through that, and delegated legislation to living institution.
Mr Speaker, we enjoyed the good lectures received from Mr Kongo.

He convinced the Committee that indeed he has been sojourning in that institution for good and we realized also that the 2012 Nuclear Safety Bill was designed by his very self.

Mr Kongo convinced the Committee that he was on top of his job.

In fact he even made me to get a sharp reminiscence of the basic physics that I read in Njala in the early years of 2002 about radiation.
He is going to bring Laws on radiation that would benefit the people of this country.

What are you doing about the health of the people?

You know the dangers of radiation that are exhibited by these mobile telephone poles.

We are expecting you to make Laws that will reciprocate that will benefit the very community people land owners as well as Constituency Parliamentarians.

This is what we are expecting from Mr Kongo by the time he takes full control in a few minutes time when you would be approved.
Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, we are privileged to interview a teacher Mr Kelli Samura by name.

Bringing Kelli Samura’s experience as a teacher and farmer will definitely add some finance to Statistics Sierra Leone.

You are coming to work for a council that oversees the Governance system of statistics, statistics has to do with the socio and economic life of any nation so bringing your teacher and farmer experience much is actually expected of you Mr Kelli Samura.
19 Mr Speaker, Mr Kelli Samura proved to us that he is a local champion in his domain very popular youth that has affected his fellow teachers and bringing those issues affecting teachers will be expecting from you by the time you work at Statistics Sierra Leone.

We are about to concluding this Fourth Session of H.E the President and I have no doubt that you are going to add value to those MDA’s where you are going to work at the radiation office as well as Statistics Sierra Leone.
Mr Speaker, it is against this backdrop I am asking my colleagues Honourable Members that we speedily approve these Nominees so that they can go to their different offices.

Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for allowing me to contribute to this debate.

THE SPEAKER: I don’t think we need to spend too much time on these Nominees.

I will start with the lady Honourable from Kambia, Honourable from Bonthe in that order and then maybe we will just conclude the debate.

HON.
HON.

EMILIA L. TONGI: Thank you very much Mr Speaker.

I want to thank His Excellency once again for giving us these Nominees but I want to start with Mr Kelli Samura.

Mr Kelli Samura I want to wish you good luck and I also want to ask you a favour, please when you have time go back to your classrooms and teach our kids.

Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, I want to talk about Mr Kongo.
Mr Kongo you are a specialist and when we talk about radiation automatically we think negative and because of poverty most of these mobile companies are putting their poles very close to most of the towns and there is radiation.

Radiation is causing breast cancer especially on the women and they don’t know about it.

I would like you to use your office to work in corporation with these mobile companies especially Orange and Qcell.
They are going round the country instead of putting their poles far away from the town they are putting them right in the middle of the town so therefore in the very near future we will be having cases like cancer.

So please I am not here actually to talk much because you have all the know-how and you are going there to teach the people what is good for the nation because if you are bringing all these beautiful techniques to our country it is good.
I want you to step in to save the lives of people because these mobile poles are really dangerous.

So please use your office to protect our people because I have three 20 mobile poles in my own town and we hope and pray that nothing bad comes out of it.

I thank you Mr Speaker for catching my eyes.

THE SPEAKER: I thank the Honourable Lady for her contribution to the debate and the Honourable Member from Kambia you have the Floor.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, listening to the Honourable from Kailahun this morning we are worried with the knowledge and issues she has raised for us to have a report on NATCOM by giving us assurance because most times when these poles are being erected our people are informed that they have no radiation.
The radiation level is so low that it will not cause cancer because in some areas the poles are erected on top of dwelling houses and in the provinces very close to homes but what she is saying now is a bit disturbing for the future of our nation.
Mr Speaker, this morning when the appointee to Statistics Sierra Leone was called out people laughed at his humility and for some of us who have been teachers this is what we expect from a trained and qualified teacher somebody who loves his profession and somebody who is an expert in that field.
Mr Speaker, these are the people who are really trained and who love the profession of teaching and these are the people you want to maintain in that kind of profession because they assure you of quality products but Mr Speaker today almost all of us who were good teachers are now exiting the classroom, the classroom is no more attractive Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: Including yourself?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Yes, I was a teacher for a very long time Mr Speaker and do not be surprised.
THE SPEAKER: How long is that?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: I became a village teacher and a city teacher Mr Speaker I have seen it all as a teacher and that is why when we have the opportunity Mr Speaker to see good teachers like this we use the opportunity to advocate for the conditions of teachers.

The classroom is no more attractive and if we continue to pretend as if it is not a concern we are missing it.
We ought to make the teaching 21 profession an attractive one again where people will want to spend their lives as confortable teachers but today the life of an ordinary teacher in the village is almost associated to a beggar.

Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, to Mr Kongo who have been Civil Servant for a very long time and when you allow the Civil Servant to be a Civil Servant the nation benefits and from reading his profile in 2006 to 2007 you know he is somebody who has crossed Party lines in the service.
He has served both Parties and today he is going back to serve the nation as a professional imagine if he was sacked in 2007 we would not have all this kind of good service that the Leader was talking about.

Let us allow the Civil Service to be the Civil Service and let us train people through the Civil Service.

Let us not politicize the Civil Service to a point of us driving the very good brains because of political reasons if you do the nation suffers.

Thank you very much Mr Speaker.

HON.


MOSES EDWIN: Thank you very much Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, I first of all thank H. E the President for appointing such a fine Nominees before us.

I have no doubt in them but my conscience will serve me wrong if I have never talked of a personality that is here who have excelled himself and he is no less a person than Mr Josephus Kongo.

I had known Mr Kongo from the time I was in the Civil Service to be specific in the Ministry of Energy.
Mr Kongo has worked excellently under various conditions so he has excelled himself exceedingly in very difficult circumstances as the Executive Secretary for Radiation Protection.

He is an expert in that field and he has proven emblemised in that position up to his retirement I think the President spotted him because he will be moving very soon in that position as Chairman for that Commission.
He has done very well and I hope going to that place he will do more than what he did and I expect him to further step up to make Sierra Leone proud and what only I will admire is as an expert to bring to us his compact rate to reduce the effect of radiation and I have no doubt in him he will perform in that vein.

Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, to the teacher Mr Samura because of your humility I know you will excel.
You will do what is expected of you as a teacher because you have the skills and you will take that along in your new assignment.

Mr Speaker, Honourable 22 Members, having said that I know the two Nominees will do their best and they will make this country proud.

With that, I ask my colleagues to speedily approve the Nominees so that they can go and take up their new positions.

I thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER: I thank the Honourable Member for his contribution to the debate.
I was tempted to ask to get a demonstration of humility about which he speaks so eloquently but I noticed that our Honourable Lady from Makeni just the excitement you came in rather too late.

You came in too late I am not pointing at you if you take your seat you will soon hear the person I recognised.

HON.

MOHAMED B. SHAW: Thank you Mr Speaker for the very first time having a Nominee from Falaba District and also catching your eyes.
THE SPEAKER: I beg your pardon is this the first time you catching my eyes?

HON.

MOHAMED B. SHAW: I said for the first time having a Nominee from Falaba District and also me catching your eye to have a bite on these Nominees.

Mr Speaker, having said that I want to thank the President for nominating another very good man from Falaba District and people used to say that wise men come from the East but I want to assure you also that the wise man comes too from Falaba.
THE SPEAKER: The answer to prove you wrong because this is not the first time you are catching my eyes.

HON.

MOHAMED B. SHAW: Thank you Mr Speaker I yield.

Mr Speaker, the man before us here is very humble and he is coming from a much disciplined background.

The people of Sulima, Falaba District we are much disciplined and humble.

Mr Speaker, I want to be seeing people from Falaba District coming here.

THE SPEAKER: I am seeing a humble citizen from Falaba District for the first time today.

HON.
HON.

MOHAMED B. SHAW: Mr Speaker… HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Speaker, you need to clarify what about Honourable Lahai Marah and Honourable Billoh Shaw?

23 HON.

MOHAMED BILLOH SHAW: We need not to go into that Honourable Member.

HON ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Alusine Marrah… THE SPEAKER: No, the Honourable Member used the plural ‘we,’ people from Falaba are very humble if I may paraphrase and I am simply recognising that for the first time.
I am recognising a humble citizen from Falaba only today, only today in this House the one I had encountered with before now is far away from been humble.

HON.

MOHAMED BILLOH SHAW: Mr Speaker, thank you for at least having one today we thank the President for seeing Mr Samura as a suitable citizen to serve in that capacity.
I want to assure this House that the Nominee before us is capable of discharging the duty he has been appointed for and he will do so diligently and I am still pleading to the President we need more people from Falaba District.

We have two Members of Parliament, 6 Councillors from that part of the country I think we have capable youths who can deliver in various capacities.

We thank him for the opportunity given and we are seeking for more.
We want him to help us with more appointees in strategic positions to ensure that our District forever remains to be where we want it to be.

I want Mr Samura to make the people of Falaba very proud people.

I am sure you can make us proud having said that Mr Speaker, please let the message go to the President.

We appreciate him and we are seeking for more opportunities for our youths and our people under the New Direction.

I thank you.

HON.

ABDULAI OSMAN CHARLES: Thank you very much Mr Speaker.
I just want to make few additions to all what have been said about the Nominees.

Of course, there is no doubt about their capacities to discharge their duties in the various areas they have been appointed for and most of the contributions are being on the mobile companies.

The emission of those gases relating to radiation causes nuclear radiation and is a very serious issue even with the Western World.
I want to move from what colleagues have said relating to mobile companies located within communities for fear of radiation activities or radioactive emissions.

I want you to pay attention to mining companies.

I have experienced working in as an expert in sand minerals operation.

You know despite some minerals that are radioactive like monazite you know also the chemicals they use 24 to separate these minerals ranging from exploration electrons.
They used a lot of chemicals that are radioactive so therefore you have to pay attention to these companies and also Zacon is being mined locally along the Bonthe- Moyamba areas.

They have to be very careful Zacon is associated with monazite that is Unirium, Thorium and these are minerals that produced these radioactive bacterial and our local farmers in those communities are mining Zacon.
So you have to watch those areas otherwise you know radioactive materials are very harmful to ourselves and the community so therefore that education awareness amongst communities and also within companies knowing very well that this is harmful to our people.

Companies are aware of those dangers and they do it with impunity.

When we worked in the mines we were using protective equipment but that notwithstanding we had our colleagues who were sick or whatever disease that was similar to tuberculosis.
It was neosis because of the chemicals we inhale and the materials that come from these minerals so be very mindful of those minerals and companies that are mining sand minerals with that I think a lot has been said about your capacity of being able to man the position you have been assigned to.

On that note, I want to thank His Excellency for looking at a person like your type because you are not going there as a learner you have the institutional memory to help that department or authority.
I thank you very much Mr Speaker, Honourable Members.

THE SPEAKER: I thank the Honourable Member for his contribution.

It is very clear from his contribution he has definitely shown that he is not a product of Dominion University.

We shall now wrap up this debate the Deputy Leader of Opposition you have the Floor.

HON.

IBRAHIM BEN KARGBO: Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, we are grateful today that we are here to address a very important issues relating to two important Nominees.
Yesterday when we interviewed the two Nominees it was very clear that Mr Kongo is not only an academic intellectual but also a man who is aware of what he is supposed to be doing all of us felt very proud.

These are the kind of Sierra Leoneans we need in public places to handle important positions so when we interviewed him 25 yesterday there was no doubt that he is a gentle man and he is an academic.
So therefore we think that it was a good choice made by the President to allow such a gentleman to serve the State but all I can say now is that we hope that they can utilize his knowledge, his ability to make sure that he passes on that information and knowledge to other people and we are also very satisfied that wherever he is going to go and I am such he is going to a very important position in the radiation industry.
Mr Speaker, Members of Parliament, again I repeat that the choice made by the President was excellent a very good choice.

Mr Kongo like I said a very intelligent man, a man who made it very clear to us yesterday that he is quite an educated person so about the gentleman from Falaba.

I can only say that it pays to be modest and I am very certain that it is your modesty that caused the President to appoint you to this position and I will say if you continue to be modest more glories will come later on.
Mr Speaker, when this gentleman entered and almost bow greeting us some people want to giggle but I thought that was a great move by a gentleman to tell us that he came from a background that is very important and historical.

A background of well-trained people so this is why Mr Speaker I think that we should continue to bring in people like this so that it can become part and parcel of this whole process.
So Mr Speaker without wasting much time I know that we on this side will always support good appointments by the President and we will challenge them only when they are not good.

Mr Speaker, again we want to tell you that we now ask you to plead with our Members of Parliament to fast-track the whole process of approving these gentlemen.

Thank you very much Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: I thank the Acting Leader of Opposition over to you now Leader of Government Business.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Speaker, I thank my colleagues for their contributions towards the Nominees and also thank His Excellency the President for going out there and looking out for these fine gentlemen to serve in various capacities for the good of Sierra Leone.
Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, Honourable Ibrahim Ben Kargbo said with the huge experience and expertise we have from the Chairman for Radiation 26 Safety which he displayed during the interview and we need more education in terms of radiation Mr Speaker.
I was part of the team that enacted the Radiation protection Act in 2012, I participated throughout the consultation and enactment and the whole idea is that people talk about the harmful effect of radiation but we use radiation every other day so even in the consultation we used to do various descriptions.

We need to go back to the classroom as said by my colleague from Kailahun to lecture our students about the effect of radiation because we use radiation every day.
It is the usage of radiation that either you are going to have the negative impact or positive impact so again look at the radiation coming from the mobile phones that is very important.

It also has to do with the distant of emission and people are putting poles on top of their houses so you have to determine the distant where the pole is erected and far are you from that emission so we need a lot with your expertise.
We need a lot of education for Sierra Leoneans to ensure that we have a clear picture about what this radiation is about so that they can understand and they can appreciate.

They can take prevention in terms of talking about radiation but the other one that is important is how do you build your team.

In the Military they are together to maintain the unity, the responsibility and the strength of that group.
THE SPEAKER: I will take the Motion from you I think it is about time he suffers the consequences you have been overthrown, go ahead.

Suspension of S.O 5[2] HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Thank you Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: You were not paying attention.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: We need a lot of education; why do you need the education?

We can use radiation in terms of agricultural activities; we are using it in terms of medical facilities even the X-ray we do we use radiation.
So we need to understand when we use radiation in the positive way and the effect of radiation in the negative way.

We need to understand all of those things about Radiation Protection Agency, they need to go out there to educate the masses so when we are talking about 27 radiation because it is about Laws we use every other day.
We also realise that the potential of the Act has not been executed, so as the Chairman coming to head this institution, we believe that you put your team together right round this country to ensure that we have the potential of this particular Act so that people know how to deal with radiation in the mining areas.

Mr Speaker, a Member in the Committee talked about radiation from a mining sector.
She explained to us and she was really busy talking about what the radiation effect on the people, and how far are we going to build from that radiation emission.

So in a very simple term, the proposed Chairman said we can use radiation in some positive ways and even what we are getting from radiation we can use it in another way, but what we need to do is to go around and monitor.
In fact, when he was heading that particular department, he said we need to go around monitoring what is coming out from the mining sector so that they can control and give the protection or whatever necessary to see that they are within the rules and regulations in terms of radiation.
So there are so many themes; we talk about safety; it depends on what you want to do and I believe with his expertise, the knowledge and the long serving experiences he has with the sector, it serves as a yardstick for him to change this particular department.

And also for our young man who is going to be part of the council of members of Statistic Sierra Leone and I believe he spoke about data analysis and the important of data; it is very good for us when talking about data.
People look at statistics just to count people, but there is much in statistics; when we talk about inflation, talk about economic analysis we have to look at the statistical data, you want to talk about development you have to look at the statistical data you have.

So Sierra Leoneans need to look at statistics in different forms; not only counting people, but there is more to it.
So he said he will be engaging in terms of data analysis and also working with his colleagues so that they can ensure that proper work is being done at the Statistics Sierra Leone.

Mr Speaker, I think these people are qualified and I recommend them again for this House for approval and that they can serve in these capacities so that they can help Sierra Leone to grow from where we are today and make their own contributions.
Mr Josephus 28 Kongo is going to be at the helm of affairs in what he has done before and also the execution of the functions of this particular department or institution.

Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, that the Ninth Report of the Fourth Session of the Committee on Appointments and Public Service be adopted by the House and the recommendations contain therein be approved.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER: Thank you.
[Question proposed, put and agreed to] [Motion of the Committee on Appointment and the Public Service by Honourable Matthew S. Nyuma has been approved] THE SPEAKER: It is now my pleasant duty to add my own voice of congratulating the Nominees who has just been approved, we wish you well in your new undertakings, you have shown yourself by a very graceful entering to the Chamber that indeed you come from very respectable and descent backgrounds and we have no doubt that you will not let His Excellency the President down because his estimation is that you are capable persons to discharge these important functions.
We in turn add our own sense of confidence in what His Excellency has done and extend to you our very best wishes.

Good luck in your new assignments.

Thank you.

You may take leave off us whenever you wish to.


GOVERNMENT MOTION THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION MRS MAMADI GOBEH KAMARA: Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, be it resolved that this Honourable House hereby ratifies the following Agreement which was laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 12th April, 2022; Agreement between the Government of United Arab Emirate and the Government of the Republic of Sierra Leone on Economic and Technical Corporation.
Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, the Government of the Republic of United Arab Emirates and the Government of the 29 Republic of Sierra Leone established diplomatic relations in 1982.

This relationship continues to grow from strength to strength with the establishment of the Sierra Leone Embassy in Abu Dhabi in 2015 accredited in two other countries; India and Bangladesh.
I am pleased to inform this Honourable House that at the United Nations General Assembly in September, 2021, His Excellency Dr. Julius Maada Bio and the Emir of the United Arab Emirates, Sheikh Khailifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan held fruitful discussions on ways of strengthen the existing bilateral relations between the two countries in the areas of economic and technical corporation.
In this perspective, the former Ambassador of Sierra Leone to Abu Dhabi the late Excellency Seray Alpha Timbo had the opportunity to sign a joint agreement on economic and technical cooperation with the Government of the United Arab Emirates in Dubai on the 15th February, 2017.
This joint cooperation agreement covers the tutorial fiscal areas, trading goods and services, investment, agriculture including agro processing activity, livestock and fishery, acquisition of agricultural land, energy particularly renewable energy, mining and industry, infrastructure, construction and tourism, telecommunication and transportation.
This wide range of cooperation takes into consideration the unique opportunities available in Sierra Leone for consistency and pragmatic cooperation with the UAE and further takes into account the economic priorities of both countries in view of fostering and enduring framework agreement.

Sierra Leone and the United Arab Emirates are further guided by the desire to promote the development aspirations of both countries in addition to creating favourable conditions for economic and technical cooperation.
However, it is expected that either government respects the laws of the respective States during which the terms of this Agreement.

Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, the Government of the Sierra Leone continues to prioritise the values of promoting and sustaining mutually beneficial relations with friendly countries for a win-win outcome.

This partnership must be strategic based on mutual trust and confidence accord on the belief that development assistance must be driven by trade and not aid.
This informs the Government of Sierra Leone to ensure a conducive atmosphere for trade and foreign directive investment.

In this regard, the 30 establishment of the National Investment Board chaired by His Excellency ensures that processes are efficient to provide a one stop shop in terms of investment.
Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, in addition, to establishing a viable platform for trade and economic cooperation, the Government of Sierra Leone has also benefited immensely from fellowship programs and scholarships provided by the United Arab Emirates to enable Sierra Leoneans to pursue courses in diverse fields of study in medicine, electrical engineering, agriculture science, management and finance, science and technology.
As part of the strong relationship between our two governments, the government of the United Arab Emirates as commissioned the one hundred sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed field bed hospitals to be constructed in Port Loko District.

Further compliment the government of Sierra Leone’s effort to boost its health care delivery system including the fight against Covid-19.
Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, the bilateral relations within Sierra Leone and United Arab Emirates have created the opportunity to build trust and create reliable partnerships especially through our collective membership within the framework of the organization of Islamic Cooperation, the Non-Align Movement, the Group of 77 and China in supporting the interest of Sierra Leone in the United Nations and in particular in Sierra Leone’s bid for seat at the United Nations Security Council for the term 2022 to 2024.
Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, we believe that the Agreement on Economic and Technical Cooperation between the Government of Sierra Leone and the United Arab Emirates is not controversial which if ratified would further enhance a common principles specially in the context of mutual interest and respect in the national cooperation.
Sierra Leone also recognises the United Arab Emirates influential and important role as a key player within the international global system particularly in the promotion of trade and investment globally from which our country will stand to benefit immensely.
Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, be it resolved that this Honourable House hereby ratifies this Agreement titled the Agreement between the Government of United Arab 31 Emirates and the Government of the Republic of Sierra Leone; Economic and Technical Cooperation.

Thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER: I thank the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Corporation.
[Question Proposed] THE SPEAKER: I am sure you will all agree this is not by any stretch of the imagination a controversial Agreement and therefore we shall simply go straight to ratify it.

HON.

IBRAHIM B. KARGBO: Mr Speaker, we thank the Minister very much, she has been very eloquent here as to what she wants to tell us.
She made the point very clearly that all the things that we need in the cooperation between the United Arab Emirates and the Government of Sierra Leone are already listed down in her statement for which we are also very satisfied.
Mr Speaker, United Arab Emirates is a country that is of great importance to many other countries, but more importantly for us in Sierra Leone, we see the UAE as a country that can be part and parcel of our development because those of us who have visited that country, who have been part of that whole system know that it is a country that is very important to the rest of mankind; to the rest of the world.
I remember we went to Dubai recently or sometime ago; the Leader of Government Business and I, we had a clear indication that that part of the world is very determined to move ahead for the development of the rest of mankind.

So like I said Mr Speaker, the cooperation between us and United Arab Emirates is very clear and we are not only talking about one mode of cooperation; we are talking about various aspects of cooperation to make sure that the two countries develop very rapidly.
Mr Speaker, we have spoken quite a number of times that it is not enough for us to merely state that we are going to cooperate with a country, but we also want to be very certain that we benefit from that cooperation and Mr Speaker, listen to the Minister, we are very certain that we will benefit from that cooperation, we will benefit 32 from the relationship between us and UAE for which we are very satisfied and we want to be very satisfied as well that we in this part of the House will cooperate with the government.
We will cooperate with the UAE to ensure that we have a positive result in this relationship and as a country we will need to have more friends and we are very certain that this is one development that has given to us that we are indeed making new friends.
I was talking to Mr Speaker the other day about the need of countries that want to make us friends; the Cuba government for example wants to be friend with us, but more importantly they want to be friend of the Parliament of Sierra Leone, so very soon I am going to bring a document here so that those people who are interested to be part and parcel of that process can always be part and parcel of that process.
Recently we also witnessed the arrival of our friends from other countries and we also want to be part and parcel of this whole process.

So Mr Speaker, apart from that we also want to make sure that Madam Minister from the Foreign Ministry to forge-ahead with the development that has been brought to us.

We know that Ministry is working very tirelessly to ensure that there is cooperation between Sierra Leone and the rest of the world.
So Mr Speaker, we do not have any much difficulty here and like you said yourself that there is no controversy here, but more importantly we just want to say that the UAE relationship and Sierra Leone is a relationship that we must foster for the benefit of this country.

Thank you very much Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: I thank the Acting Leader of the Opposition and over to you Leader of Government Business.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Thank you very much Mr Speaker and thank you Honourable Ibrahim Ben Kargbo for looking at the overview of the relationship from cooperation’s from different countries and now today we have the United Arab Emirates.

Like the Minister stated, it is a cooperation that has to do with the economic and technical cooperation.
Firstly, it has to be implemented based on our existing legislations for both countries and also look at the equality, the reciprocity and the mutual benefit that they are going to get through this cooperation.
Mr Speaker, she transfers this Agreement from various sectors you know we have been talking about 33 involvement of the Private Sectors in some of our governance systems so what they have done they have been able to bring the Private Sector in because they are going to deal with investment in terms of trade, Agriculture, Energy, Mining Industries, Infrastructure, Construction, Tourism and Tele-Communication etc.

etc.

that one is in article [1] in the Agreement.


They have put together the Private Sector even the Committee that they are going to set up the Private Sector, the businesses are going to be involved, People are running the Private sector to ensure that they are really at the centre of this Agreement and it has to do with the regulation.
Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, if you look at article [1] paragraph [4] in tandem with article [2] sub- Clause [2] that deals with the entities and business communities to explore the possibilities of executing project in various areas of economic and technical co-operation.

We are talking about incentive to investors in both countries as long as such actions are in accordance with their Legislations.
You cannot just go and talk about investments and infrastructure and Agriculture when you are implementing this Agreement.

There must be an existing Legislation between the two Countries so article [2] Clause [2] is talking about that and the International obligation also is very key.

They are taking recognition of the bilateral arrangement with that of the international obligation and commitment from both countries.

But Mr Speaker; they also address what we called Tourism.
When you go to page 5, in this same article [2] Clause [3] which is very good for our Tourism Sector and that of Clause [4] it says encourage the participation of business communities, international spheres and exhibition held in both Countries.
They are only trying to bring on board the Private Sector and in such development the Private Sector is very key to ensure that they are always at the centre and because Government cannot do a better business so the Private Sector will involve in businesses and some of these implementation of the things that they want to do in this Agreement.
We are talking about the Agricultural Sector, we want to talk about irrigation if they have best irrigational system we have to involve the Private Sector, the Government Officials they will go right down to United Arab Emirates using this Agreement with the existing legislations we have, and they will go about whether 34 edifications on what do you want to do or the exchange technology between two Countries or mutual benefits as stated in the scope of this Agreement.
There is one that is very important talking about the transhipment re-export and temporal storage of commodities.

The problem we are having is to do with people that are staying far as Kailahun.

There are so many Agricultural products we get from Kailahun but for you to move from the centre of Kailahun to other places beyond Koindu we have to go through some difficult terrain.
So if we talk about the storage system in this Agreement, we can identify this area in this Agreement we ensure that we have the storage facilities all over the place.

It would serve as way for us to better preserve Agricultural products so that it cannot get spoil at the end of the day.
They also addressed the area of payment systems which is very key, they do not agree on a specific used of exchange currency but they said they will come together to see the one that is applicable for both Countries to use.

That one is also inclined in article [3], let me just read out article [3] because these are some of the limitations we get in the Agreement.

What exchange rates are we going to use?


If I want to go to United Arab Emirates or we have gone with the business people it is difficult to get Dollars so you have to negotiate to use particular exchange rates which can be comfortable for the business Committee and the Government that is article [3].
Mr Speaker, with your leave they said contracting parties shall encourage the utilization of any international method of payment and freely convertible currencies that are wildly used to make payment for international transaction and wildly exchange in the principal international exchange market and agree upon by contracting parties.
We want Madam Minister to take note of this because if you are going to bring the business community on board you are going to make them very comfortable in term of moving because they want to go and do transactions in other business partners abroad.

In the Agreement it is really clear to all of us that the Committee that you are going to form as I stated is very clear here and sometimes we fail because we don’t bring other players on board but this Agreement is very clear on all of those issues.
Firstly, they said there must be existing legislations to protect both parties and also protect our own Private Sector that 35 we are going to bring on board.

Secondly, they are talking about enforcing some of these legislations so that it can be visible and practical for them, they are talking about the currency exchange rates that you have to use and agree upon but it is also clear that the Committee that you are going to set will give enforcement to this Agreement which is in article [3].
Mr Speaker, with a view to ensure the implementation of this Agreement a joint Economic Committee here after we referred to as Committee consisting of Government and business Community is very clear so we don’t want you the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or the Ministry of Trade to muzzle the Private Sector.
We would not accept that one so the implementation of this Agreement must be followed and everybody should get the benefits from this Agreement so article by article is stated from legislation to implementation and setting up joint Committees but the other one that is interesting and very good to work with it has to do with the termination.

How do you in terms of arbitration?

How do you come together?

How do you settle disputes?


Is very clear here that disputes you exhaust your own internal arrangement for the settlement of disputes.

There is always going to be disputes but one thing that is clear even in the general Agreement of the article they are saying is that if you have other things that you want to do in the interests of both Countries you are free to do so.
That leverage is given within this Agreement so Mr Speaker, is like you are encouraging more players, more investments to come on board in as much as we are trying to protect the Investors and bring our business community on board.

They are also saying if there are areas that are interest to us in terms of Health Sector in trying to look at issues that are more enhancing in Agricultural Sector or Trade barriers that we want to get rid of you are free to do so in this Agreement.
So as I said about disputes first I would also read this Mr Speaker, because some of these Agreements are sometimes not followed and terminated abruptly on knowing to us but here they are saying we don’t just want to terminate the Agreement of nature because it has a whole set of benefits for both parties so they are saying article [6] any dispute arising out of the interpretation or the implementation of this Agreement shall be settled amicably through consultations within 36 the Committee so you see the Committee that they are going to set.
They have their own role to play so this Committee that they are saying it brings different players on board and they said if those consultations fail to resolve the disputes through diplomatic channel between the contracting parties so you have another step to use.

We have ratified so many Agreements but sometimes our problem is some of these Agreements the implementation that is the reason the oversight Committee has been stated by Honourable I.B.

Kargbo.
Kargbo.

They have to look at other areas again to come but we need to oversight our work very effectively when we ratify this Agreement.

We cannot just put it in a shelf so that they can just gather dust but what we do make sure that they are implemented and enforcement is taken so that it can benefit for our People.
So this is a whole joint Agreement that has to do with our Laws, with the Business Community, with Trade, promoting the Tourism Industry so when we do this it would benefit immensely all of what is in this Agreement but if we don’t implement them, we don’t do oversight we would not benefit from some of these Agreements that we pass here and this is the time for us to encourage the Private Sector to really work with this Agreement.
Madam Minister, share this Agreement with the Private Sector, we have most of these beautiful Agreements but the Private Sector they are not aware because we refuse to engage them.

I want to thank you very much for bringing Civil Societies to Parliament and engaging Civil Society to be part of Parliamentary work.

Yesterday we had meeting with Civil Societies and you said the Civil Societies they are the quiet voice of the people so they are on board.
There is no way you can go and say something about Parliament in the mischief way you must come to Parliament because there is that communiqué between Parliament and Civil Society.

So the Foreign Ministry through the Ministry of Trade if you really want us to realise some of these things that you have gone out there to sign in this Agreement you want to have a good potential of it so we involve this particular one in the Private Sector.

How do you call them?


Mr Speaker, I just want to say it is not a controversial Agreement because it has taken care of the difficult area that you think you have to struggle with in terms of disputes, in terms of involvement, in terms of progress so take these three adjectives on board.

37 Madam Minister, one has to do with the equitability even in terms of development we are not as advanced as U.A.E but we are talking about equality.
They are also talking about reciprocity that is we have to encourage them to come over and we go over to them, that is how we promote industry and finally mutual benefits and the mutual benefits is how do we implement this particular Agreement.

Thank you very much Madam Minister for bringing this Agreement here for ratification.

Thank you all for your various contributions.

May the Lord bless us all.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you very much Leader of Government Business, over to you Madam Minister you should feel very gratified by what you heard from across the aisle and all that you may do now is to move the Motion again.

MRS MAMADI GOBEH KAMARA: Thank you very much Mr Speaker.

I want to say a very big thank you to the two Honourable Members, the Honourable Leader of Government Business and also the Leader of the Opposition for various concerns for the point they have raised.
Mr Speaker, ours is co-ordinating Ministry and as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs we interact with our Foreign Partners.

We signed Agreements on behalf of the people of Sierra Leone and once we come back we get the various players to involve in making sure they do their own bit and ensuring that the right things are done.
We also always partner with them, team up with them to make sure that we don’t only come back and tell them what is involved in this Agreement but we also get them to do their own part for the benefit of our people.

So Mr Leader of Government Business let me assure you that we would follow to the latter some of the concerns that you raised and we would ensure the quality, reciprocity and mutual benefits are assured so at this point I would call on Parliament.
They have been very supportive especially our Foreign Affairs Committee has been supportive to what we do as a Ministry.

We will continue to ask them to partner with us to provide requisite oversight that will ensure that the implementation of this Agreement is followed to the latter.

We will also set up the Committee that you have spoken about Mr Leader of Government Business and all of the issues that you raised will be taken into consideration I want to assure you of that.
38 Mr Speaker, like the Honourable I.B.

Kargbo noted that the U.A.E is a very important country to the rest of the world and the co-operation is very clear and the Agreement that I brought before the House this morning is very clear and if ratify the two countries would get into actions to ensure that the terms of this Agreement will be actualized for the benefit of the two Countries.
We all know what happens when other Countries close their trade route during the Covid 19 and a lot of us turned to the Arab, East Turkey and U.A.E to do business so having an Agreement of this nature in place can only continue to add value to what we are aspiring for our people.

So Mr Speaker, let me assure this House this afternoon that we will continue to do what we need to do as a Ministry of Foreign Affairs to ensure that we interact with our global Partners in the interest of our people.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs will continue to work in partnership and leadership in the Ministry to have a different approach to the way we do things and I am sure Members of the House will attest to the fact that we have been interacting with them and so we have been doing with other Sectors across the board so let me again once more to assure you that we will remain committed as a Leadership and as a Ministry of Foreign Affairs to make sure that we forge ahead with efforts to ensure that the best interest of our country is always in the centre of what we do.
With that said Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, be it resolved that this Honourable House here by ratify the following Agreement which was laid on the Table of the House of Parliament on Tuesday 12th April, 2022.

I.

The Agreement between the Government of the United Arab Emirates and the Government of the Republic of Sierra Leone on Co-operation.
THE SPEAKER: Thank you Madam Minister, before I put the question to the House I want to bring to the attention of the House before we forget the matter that was brought to our attention here I think either the last sitting or the one before and the Ministry of Tourism I believe before they came here with an Oath of Agreement for ratification, some of them, at least one of the Agreements was dated far back as 1954, just imagine a Convention that the World had settled in 1954, was only been brought to this Well for ratification in the year 2022, and even as that when we 39 place all those Agreements on the Order Paper and we are ready to proceed the Minister for some strange reason did not appear neither did her Deputy so we had to delete that portion of the Order Paper and proceeded with the other matters on the Oder Paper now I raised this with you Madam Minister because you are the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.
Please liaise with your Colleagues is a very shameful business for this Country not to be ratifying Agreements that are over 40 nearly 50 years old gathering dust in the shelves of the Ministries it doesn’t tell well for the reputation of our Country so if they are not willing or for any strange reason not ready to come forward to have those Agreements ratified I think the onus lies with you because as you know you are the face of the Country.
There are other Countries and International organisations to be asked one day not ratifying those Agreements over 50 years or more Agreements have been gathering dust not seeing the light of day it doesn’t tell well so that is the message I have for you and a task that this House is given to you Madam Minister to liaise with your Colleague to ensure that you bring Agreement here as quickly as possible so that the House can do the needful.
Having said that Honourable Members, the question is that this Honourable House ratifies the Agreement which was laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday 12th April, 2022 namely; THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE U.A.E AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SIERRA LEONE ON ECONOMIC AND TECHNICAL CO-OPERATION [Question Proposed Put and Agreed To] [Government Motion by the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co- operation had been ratified] THE SPEAKER: Madam Minister, you may now take leave off us if you wish.
BILL: 40 The Anti-Human Trafficking and Migrant Smuggling Act 2021 The Minister of Social Welfare Committee Stage Part One, Two, Three, Four and Five, Clauses One to Nineteen stand part of the Bill.

MRS BAINDU DASSAMAN KAMARA: Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, I move that part One, Two, Three, Four and Five, Clauses One to Nineteen stand part of the Bill.

[QUESTION PROPOSED] HON.


JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: On that note Mr Chairman, I want to move that the short title be read as the Anti-Human Trafficking and Migrant Smuggling Act 2022 instead of 2021.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, the amendment from the year 2021 to 2022 I think that is accepted.

Any comments or amendments?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: I don’t know but am seeing that we are talking about 2022 being an Act to provide for the continued existence of national task force.
I don’t know how Members will look at it for the ‘continuation of the National Task Force on Human Trafficking’ instead of in existence’.

THE CHAIRMAN: Let me take you to Clause 2 [1] I think what is attempted to be done is to synchronise the two wordings.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Well Clause 2[1] there shall continue in existence a body known as the National Task Force on Human Trafficking.

THE CHAIRMAN: Stop there and then read now the beginning of the long title.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: I really don’t have problem sometimes you know the long title is giving us an insight of the whole Bill so I agree with you, thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, page two [2], page two preliminary part definitions.

Page three if you look at the definition of electronics evidence there is an inverted 41 comma starting with the word evidence I don’t think it was meant to be there must have been a typo.

So take note of that and the typo should be taken care of.
If you look at the definition of electronic evidence Mr Leader there is a word in the second line and there is an inverted comma there, I don’t think it was meant to be.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, if you look at this Bill there is an area where they are asking for judicial proceedings.

THE CHAIRMAN: For?

HON.


MATHEW S. NYUMA: The judicial proceedings, they are asking if they can accept electronic evidence mutually agreed by the parties involved is somewhere in the Bill as we go along we will see that one.

But coming back to what they have done I think they are trying to simplify because this is a definition.
They are trying to further simplify what it meant by electronic evidence, photographs, video recordings, audio recordings and evidences derived from data contained in or produced by any device.

The functioning of which depends on a software programme or from data stored, or on communication over a computer system or network.
They are trying to simplify it, it has to do with the… THE CHAIRMAN: Leader of Government Business you and I are on the same track let me tell you the simple thing I am drawing your attention to there is an inverted comma that should not be there that’s all.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Oh, okay.

THE CHAIRMAN: Just get rid of the inverted comma.

Page four [4], I thought we had agreed here that we should always define Minister to mean the Minister responsible for the department.
So let us add the word means ‘the Minister responsible for Social Welfare’.

This takes care of the day that the Minister is not in office, but somebody else is given temporary assignment of the Ministry.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, I just want the Minister to explain to us why we have the joint Chairmen for the implementation on human trafficking.

42 THE CHAIRMAN: Where is that?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Talking about part two the National Task Force… THE CHAIRMAN: We have not reached there yet.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: That is page five part two the National Task Force on Human Trafficking.

THE CHAIRMAN: There is a joint Chairman.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes, I just want to know the reason, I just want to know the spirit behind it I have not seen much, but we want to know the spirit behind it because when you go further in the Bill it’s making so much emphasis on the joint Chairmen so we just want to understand what will be the operation.

THE CHAIRMAN: The policy consideration behind it.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Exactly!

What’s the policy consideration there?

Its Clause two [2] let me read clause two there shall continue in existence a body known as National Task Force Human Trafficking existing of representatives of the Minister of Social Welfare and the Attorney General and Minister of Justice as joint Chairmen that is what I am questioning.

What is the rationale?

What is the benefit?

We want somebody to take responsibility of what is going on.
And they are saying a representative that is something we questioned, and this Bill is signed by the onus of the Ministry of Social Welfare.

So coming to have co-chair I told you to have joint chair not even co-chair I don’t understand why, so Madam Minister can you tell us why we have this one we want to know.

THE CHAIRMAN: I will give you the opportunity Madam Minister before we proceed to page six can you please explain?

MRS BAINDU DASSAMA KAMARA: Thank you very much.


I think it is not clear we have said joint chair, but the Minister of Social Welfare actually works in consultation with the Attorney General and Minister of Justice, but the Minister of Social Welfare takes the lead, thank you.

43 THE CHAIRMAN: Well shall we then define that particular paragraph, or redefine it to be that the Minister of Social Welfare as Chairman, and the following other members.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman she used the word consultation I asked that question deliberately.

Mr Chairman, take note of that point, you are talking about allowances they said the Minister of Social Welfare after consultation that is Clause Seven on page ten am just trying to draw a scenario.
So for me to say Social Welfare, Gender and Children’s Affair Madam Minister for me in this case we look at co-chair in this case, because it has a whole lot of mitigations when you are talking about procedural prosecutions.

Matter of proceedings will come, and also within our own jurisdiction, and beyond our own jurisdiction it has so much to do with it.
So for me because we want to have a total responsibility of somebody we can have the Minister in charge, but really stricto sensu to look at least we need to have co-chair, and they should be co- chairmen.

Even in the disbursement they are talking about consultation so if that’s the area you will now make them relevant, that is what I see I don’t know what will be in your own case let me listen to you.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Leader is it not better that we make the Attorney General and Minister of Justice a member of the task force rather than you make him co-chair?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: That is why deliberately I read that area of consultation, because we need to give them authority.

Let me just come quickly there because of time.


THE CHAIRMAN: The power to prosecute of course is vested in the office of the law and she will not be doing not Social Welfare, but this is the Task Force we are dealing with not the area of prosecution.

HON.
HON.

AMADU BAH: Mr Chairman, I think I toe the line that of course we know the DPP is in Charge of prosecution, and the lead Ministry here is the Ministry of Social Welfare and therefore it is but fitting and proper that we allow the Ministry of Social Welfare to be the Chair and other relevant MDAs be part of it as well.

44 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have what?


Is not here but let’s play her role and there shall continuing existence a body known as the National Task Force on human trafficking consisting of the Minister of Social Welfare as Chairman and the following other members, do we agree with that?

Thank you.

HON.
Thank you.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, in as much as I see some sense in what you have said, but in the Bill we are having constant reference to the Attorney General and Minister of Justice with that of the Minister of Finance constantly so I want to prepare your mind that when we meet at that point we will take care of it.

Mr Chairman so we are now saying it should now be part of the representative of the different Ministries as we have now from a, b, c. Are you with me Mr Chairman?
THE CHAIRMAN: On page six the first person, then you have to add there the Attorney General, representative of the Attorney General and Minister of Justice to be part of the Task Force.

HON.

SANKA III P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO: Mr Chairman, please on this 2 [1] what is the real sentence of the amendment?
THE CHAIRMAN: It will now read ‘there shall continuing existence a body known as the National Task Force on Human Trafficking consisting of the Minister of Social Welfare as Chairman, and the following other members’.

HON.

SANKA III P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO: In this particular Clause they mentioned the Attorney General, if we are going to say and others are they at the back of the page on page six now?

So that means the Attorney General will be one.

THE CHAIRMAN: Exactly.

HON.

SANKA III P.C.


BAI KURR KANAGBARO: So the numbering should change Sir?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, so [a] is going to be Attorney General and Minister of Justice.

And then [a] becomes [b] and so on.

Now Madam Minister can you explain why you 45 specifically exclude the Ministers?

What you made as members of the Task Force are their representatives, not the substantive holders of the office is there any reason?
MRS BAINDU DASSAMA KAMARA: Thank you Sir it should be the Ministers but in case the Minister is not available?

THE CHAIRMAN: Well in that case you have to switch them around, you should indicate the Minister of so and so or his representatives.

MRS BAINDU DASSAMA KAMARA: Thank you.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Chairman, we have had problems in this Parliament especially when we do our oversight role.
When we do Bills here, when we create offices here, and we have some Ministers who will send a very junior staff to represent him or her, and at the end of the day when decisions are reached the Ministers don’t take ownership of those decisions.

THE CHAIRMAN: Fine go ahead and qualify not below the….

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Not below the rank of a Director as a representative, because we want when decisions are reached at this level it should be accepted by all.
Because when you send junior staff sometimes they don’t even report.

THE CHAIRMAN: So it will be for all of them to be representatives not below the rank of a Director.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, you are missing a point here please we said we want to have the substantive Ministers which you agreed.

We don’t want to have representatives below the rank of a Director that’s what we agreed on.
If you go to page seven Clause [m] it’s very clear that the National Security Coordinator in the office of the National Security or its representatives or you can say not below the rank of a Director, so that is the way we are looking at it, if the Minister of Finance or his representative not below the rank of a Director.

THE CHAIRMAN: Where you dealing with the Minister?

46 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, this Bill is a whole task force issue.
They are dealing with the line Ministry directly and the Minister by the look of things if you have critical matters you talking about anti-human trafficking that is the way deliberately they are using the Ministers, so let us involve the Ministers when you are not able to come let us look out for somebody, and we have qualified that one not below the rank of a Director.
So when that responsibility is given to the Minister you have the responsibility now to inform the Minister after every task force sitting.

So what the Deputy Leader said if you send a very junior officer to represent the Minister there will be a difficult situation where you are not able to see the Minister, but the Director because of your rank you must interact with the Minister or the Permanent Secretary about what has transpired in the task force meeting.
So that is my reason for us having the Ministers, or his representatives not below the rank of a Director that is my submission.

THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on I think Madam Minister wants to go back to Clause 2 [1] I am told.

MRS BAINDU DASSAMA KAMARA: Thank you very much Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, the Ministry of Social Welfare, and the Attorney General and the Ministry of Justice, I want to recommend that we accept both chairs of this Committee.
Because trafficking and migrant smuggling are criminal offences, and when it comes to prosecution then the Ministry of Justice and Attorney General takes charge, however most victims of trafficking are women and children, so that is why we suggested that the Attorney General and Minister of Justice, and the Minister of Social Welfare be joint chairs.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Madam Minister from the definition the Minister is referred to as the Minister responsible for Social Welfare.
Madam Minister from the definition of a Minister if the Minister responsible for Social Welfare you cannot be the referee and the player we definitely know at the end of the day the Ministry of Justice and Attorney General’s Office will have to prosecute, but for the purposes of this Bill it is the Minister of Social Welfare that is taking the principal responsibility.

And because the Attorney 47 General’s Office is extremely very important that is why it is also a member of the Task Force.
Because at the end of the day when things go bad he or she would have to do the prosecution, so I believe the Minister responsible for this Bill should be the Minister who is the Chairperson for the Task Force.

So I don’t believe we should have a Chairman and a co-chair, or we should have the Minister of Social Welfare pioneering this Task Force.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Madam Minister sorry is there any good reason that you can give us to understand why you want to share responsibilities in general on a matter of this importance that falls under your purview?

We understand the Constitution gives a role to the Attorney General’s Department and they have a role to play.

He has the DPP there, he has Law Officers there, but is there any specific reason that you want to share this responsibility of sharing the Task Force with the Attorney General?
Convince this House.

MRS BAINDU DASSAMA KAMARA: Thank you very much Mr Chairman, I accept as suggested and the explanation is very clear.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay!

So we are not belabouring on the point it’s gone, let’s leave it.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: No it’s not that, to the Task Force itself looking at the functions of the task force, and the composition of the membership of the task force I start to think the composition is too large, if we want to maintain it so then we start to add other institutions that are also very much important like the Legal Aid Board, and we even need the “soweis” and the Paramount Chiefs to be part of this list.

So we have a very big list of hundreds.

Or else you just need a small Task Force.


THE CHAIRMAN: I don’t think he is asking you to react, he is in his usual self.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: This Bill has a lot to do with human trafficking I mean this is grave offence committed all over the world, the composition is in the right form.

THE CHAIRMAN: With all of those Ministers?

48 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes Mr Chairman I will argue it out the composition is in its right form.
Just take it one after the other the only one that is there I will urge it out to expunge is [n] the Chairman Parliamentary Committee on Human Right.

THE CHAIRMAN: That is a miniature cabinet.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Let me come, Mr Chairman the only one that I will not agree with them, because of conflict of interest taking the role of the Oversight Committee you cannot allow the Committee Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN: No, we are coming there that’s why let’s taking it one by one.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Okay.


So let me come now to where you have the different Ministries from Foreign Affairs.

THE CHAIRMAN: So let’s go through them if you don’t mind, and then see their role.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Let me land Sir, Ministry of Finance when you want to disburse don’t forget this Bill talks about compensations.

THE CHAIRMAN: Go on, go on make your case.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: So you have to make disbursement of a lot of financial matters.
THE CHAIRMAN: You don’t need we all accept Minister of Finance.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Okay, Minister of Labour.

THE CHAIRMAN: They’ve been given letters to people.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: So we need them on the Board, so some of these things let them know so they will explain to the Board.

Because this is the Task Force that will be in charge of taking critical decisions for the implementation of this particular Act.
Gender of course we don’t need to belabour that one is clear, a representative of Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development.

You see in the boundary areas; in the rural communities the Paramount Chiefs we have so many porous crossing points to our borders.

So if you have the local people involved through the Local Government 49 our local authorities with the Paramount Chiefs on-board to highlight or look at some of these areas that we use to smuggle people out of the country.
So we put them on- board and they will be part of this Task Force, so that the bylaws, the regulations form part of it.

THE CHAAIRMAN: Carry on.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Of course, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation I don’t need to go over that, we have talked about the International Cooperation in this one for the extradition of other issues.

Minister of Information and Communication of course you know very well, we need more education on human trafficking.
There is a whole definition about slavery it is not only when you take somebody out there and practicing slavery.

We need to go out there and sell out what is really happening, and we engage every sector that is responsible or are engaged in this human trafficking and prostitution etc.

This Bill also is addressing prostitution and sex slaves so that one is very key and people should know what is happening.
And the area of communication of course we know we are going to form what we called the ‘free call lines for anti-trafficking’.

Of course, the youth they are involved in migration force labour they want to go out to do more work for greener pastures.

The youth bracket is very key and we need to encourage them, so that the Ministry of Youth can engage our citizenry in line with that.

THE CHAIRMAN: Don’t you see an overlap between that Youth Ministry and the other?

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Which one is the overlap?

Representative of Ministry of Tourism and Culture, Ministry of Tourism is what I think I am against a bit, though there is an area that has to do with tourism but the effect is not much.

THE CHAIRMAN: Don’t you see there is an overlap between the Minister of Gender and Children’s Affairs, Minister of Local Government and Rural Development and then you say you also need the Minister of Youth?

50 HON.
50 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Maybe I think we need to remove the Ministry of youth Affairs, because we have Ministry of Labour so let us remove the Ministry of Youth and also Ministry of Tourism.

Though, we will come to that but there is a big question mark on tourism, we will come to that when we are making our submissions.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, what about Health and Sanitation?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Of course, there is a whole section dealing with our health issues.
For example, if you let me just refer you to the section where you have about the victims.

We are talking about treatment.

Go to page 22 there is a whole list where we are talking about restitution ordered by the Court under section [1] shall be a compensation for cost of medical and psychological treatment, cost of physical and occupational therapy rehabilitation.
Mr Chairman, if you say you are involved in child trafficking the health of the individual, and taking into consideration the maltreatment giving to that individual traveling you need to do a whole lot of medical examination on that individual.

THE CHAIRMAN: Fine let’s go on education.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Of course, you don’t need to question that one, but we need to qualify it we cannot have both of them we only have basic and senior secondary school education.
THE CHAIRMAN: You need both of them there?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No we don’t need both we only need one, no you need education.

THE CHAIRMAN: No, the observation your colleagues have made is that the composition makes this Task Force very unwieldy; we are trying to make it more efficient.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Okay, I will yield to that one so we remove both of them; I was thinking of the tertiary but let remove both of them and of course the Internal Affairs is okay.
51 THE CHAIRMAN: Well if you have Internal Affairs then you have Local Government.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No, Internal Affairs purely deals with security matters that’s why you need them to collaborate.

THE CHAIRMAN: Let’s allow the Leader to finish his message.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes, we will finish.

THE CHAIRMAN: So you want to keep the Internal Affairs?

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes, we want to keep the Internal Affairs, because of the work load and I want to merge them with that of the Inspector General of Police, so we need to merge them for it to be one body.

THE CHAIRMAN: If you keep the Internal Affairs are you also going to keep the Immigration Officer?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No, there is no need am coming to that.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

HON.


MATHEW S. NYUMA: Also, I believe we should not have the Minister of Internal Affairs, but we have Inspector General of Police.

THE CHAIRMAN: Instead of the Minister of Internal Affairs?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes, or we put them together, you know normally for evidence sake you need the Police to be there.

So am looking at it why do you need the Internal Affairs Ministry?

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, we will report to the Minister of Internal Affairs.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Exactly let us join them.

THE CHAIRMAN: You know if you put the IG you don’t need to put the Minister of Internal Affairs.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: That’s what am saying that we remove the Internal Affairs because; the IG has more jobs to do.

So in my proposal we remove the Internal Affairs and we are talking about the National Security Coordinator in the Office of 52 National Security or his representative.
Of course that one we have done it already I have no question with that talking about security.

THE CHAIRMAN: Of course [n].

HON MATHEW S. NYUMA: No [n] should go that one is compromising position.

THE CHAIRMAN: He cannot be a Judge in his own right, so the Chairman of Parliamentary Committee is out?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No need for the Chief Immigration Officer, no need for him to be there.

Why do we have to have the National Commission for Social Action to do what?

We don’t need it.
We don’t need it.

I said most of them they have the reason why they should be here and we have removed Parliament, Chief Immigration Officer, and now we have agreed that we stay with the Inspector General of Police.

THE CHAIRMAN: Either two of them?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No, am coming the one of Police is in charge of gender affairs or his representatives.

There is need for this or we put them together if there is need, but we also need both of them.
There are decisions that we need to take we need the involvement of the IG because the IG should be there.

You are talking about the transhipment when you look at this Bill we are talking about the vessels smuggling those who are carrying the flags of various ships, if you are involved in human trafficking at sea.

So you need Police patrol boats all over the sea.

If we have the Police who are in charge of gathering evidences and also being part of the pro section why are you going to marine time?
You are blotting the Task Force also.

So you can come up with that if you still feel strong about it.

The Human Right Commission no problem.

THE CHAIRMAN: No, before you go to human right are you saying you need those two AIGs?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: You need them because one is specific on gender affairs.

The one is talking about the Inspector General of Police looking at his responsibility as IG.

53 THE CHAIRMAN: Between the two which role is more important to crime services?

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: It’s the Inspector General of Police, because of the over raching role he has.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but the person you need more is the one in charge of crime service.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Because that individual is going to report to his or her superior and we don’t need that as forming the Task Force you need the superior to be there.
That’s why I said we should have the Minister or a representative not below the rank of a Director that is the argument so if that individual goes to report to his or her superior we should not bring the subordinate let us go for the superior.

I will land very soon then you will come on board don’t worry am just making my submission to him.

Am not talking about the size but the execution and the spirit and the discharge of the proposed Act am talking about.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, I think Members want to stick a pin on those two.

HON.

MATHER S. NYUMA: Which one, no I said let me finish.

THE CHAIRMAN: What about human right?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Of course, Mr Speaker you want to question that one human trafficking is the primarily the responsibility for the Human Rights Commission.

THE SPEAKER: And Financial Intelligent Unit?

HON.


MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes, you know it has to do with sex trafficking, so if am here and doing human trafficking that is a huge deal so if you are sending money to me they should be able to trace and track where I am getting that money from, you know that very well.

So the Financial Intelligent Unit is very key, you are talking about human being been traffic for sex and for slavering purposes and force labour etc,etc.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

HON.


MATHEW S. NYUMA: That is my proposer is open to the House for further debate.

54 THE CHAIRMAN: What about the Executive Director?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: From where?

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want him there as a Member or as a Secretary.

HON.

MATHEW SAHR NYUMA: No it should be a Secretary that one is clear.

THE CHAIRMAN: But it is placed there as a Member.

HON.

MATHEW SAHR NYUMA: Yes it should be Executive Secretary to the Task Force.

THE SPEAKER: As a Secretary?

HON.


MATHEW SAHR NYUMA: Yes in conformity with other Laws it should be a Secretary to the Task Force.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, this is gender sensitive area let me allow the Lady Member of Parliament.

HON.
NENNEH LEBBIE: I think I will agree with the Deputy Leader of Government Business in some areas but I think in my opinion the Chief Immigration Officer is key because is an integral part to this arrangements, because they issue out passports for people to travel and I also want to include the Ministry of Transport I think they deal with the Drivers’ Union they will be able to regulate, put some certain regulations in place, because they transport the victims and they are supposed to be part of this Task Force that’s my proposer.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

In the area of NaCSA again when we deal with this, is not just our people that are being taken out, you also have situation in which people have been taken into Sierra Leone that are not citizens.
We have the Liberia saga and NaCSA has a whole institution dealing with migration, so if you have taken them off the Board because you have the social welfare it is okay, but I see no reason having this Police officers here because they all fall under the National Security and they have the Internal Affairs Minister.

We should not remove the Minister, because the Minister is coordinating other relevant institutions within the same line.
So 55 to mitigate all of that just have the Minister of Internal Affairs.

Local Government for me I see not much need for the Local Government, if the augment is to coordinate the Paramount Chiefs, we should have representatives of the council of Paramount Chiefs themselves, so they will know exactly what is in the Board, they have their own people and they govern their own bodies.
Sometimes it is very good to have our Paramount Chiefs involve in such strategic nature, because when some of us will be leaving here we would become Paramount Chiefs [Laughter].

Mr Chairman, the issue of having Parliamentary representative I agreed with you Mr Chairman.

When you look at other Legislations of other countries we have seen Committees and Boards where they have Parliamentary representatives, I don’t know what the rationale here normally we say it should not be part of the oversight.
THE CHAIRMAN: No that’s the idea.

HON.

ABUDL KARIM KAMARA: But we saw it in other Parliaments of which not for this one, but for other Bills will have passed I will bring you a sample of other countries where we see Members of Parliament been part of strategic Boards of this nature.

THE CHAIRMAN: Not in this 5th Parliament.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Exactly, okay.

THE CHAIRMAN: But you made a point, I don’t know what the Leader of Government Business will say.

HON.
HON.

ABUDL KARIM KAMARA: I agree with you and wait to hear from him.

THE CHAIRMAN: If you are having the Minister of Internal Affair then you don’t need those security sectors.

HON.

MATHEW S. NUYMA: Mr Chairman, please Point of Order, the National Security Coordinator is not under the Internal Affairs Ministry.

THE CHAIRMAN: No, we are talking about the Police the AIG.

56 HON.
56 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: I proposed that because if you have them all in one umbrella, but you asked me which one is more in terms of education or having it in its terms of performance.

THE CHAIRMAN: Even the FIU you don’t need helper at that time.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Why you don’t need helper Sir?


Human trafficking is a whole anti-money laundry business I tell you for free, FIU they are in charge of tracking, they don’t even need to get clearance from Ministry of Finance, when they want to trace you for money laundry in terms of illegal transfer they can close your account they don’t need directive from no body.

They have that power, so that is why you need FIU.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: We agree with you Mr Leader on the important of the FIU, but you don’t necessary need an investigation institution to show their relevance in this.

First of all they have the responsibility to monitor account of people freely by their Act and they can also be a whistle blower.

The way we see transaction between this person and this person, we are not satisfied, can we investigate him already?
So having them in this Board, it sounds good, but also if you say everybody that will be part and parcel of the investigation linage to be party of this Board then we will have many people.

Because even the Ministry of Youth Affairs you need the Minister of Youth, because the youth who are primary victims of this trade, so we should not have everybody or else we would have a blotted Board.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: If you are involved in human trafficking they don’t need to be a Minister for your account to be closed you have to go through so many processes, for FIU they don’t need no processing, they will order the bank to freeze the account automatically, that is the International best practice.
For me as a Minister to say close that account, I have to go through a lot of processes, but if I involve in human trafficking in illegal way of transferring money automatically FIU will come on board and in fact they can order your arrest let me tell you now.

57 HON.

BASHIRU SILILIE: Mr Chairman, we have been struggling with this, I still believe this number is extremely very huge.
Mr Chairman, the reason we cannot have the Task Force of 23, 24 or 25 and the quorum is five members you cannot have a Task Force of 23, 24 members and you say the quorum of that Task Force is 5 members.

Can five members take decisions as against the rest of the twenty members?

So I believe some of these offices will be co-opted if the need be to help the Task Force.

We should not have a Task Force that is extremely very huge, so let us see how best we amend this number.
So we now have a smaller Task Force that will be very pro-active, because when the number is huge even to have the majority of these members to converge is going to be a problem.

We don’t want to have a Task Force that cannot able to move, because people will be given excuses here and there and these people should be extremely very proactive.
You should have a smaller Task Force in which the Minister who is in charge can summon at least the majority of them at any given time, but if we have a Task Force of 24 Members how can you summon them?

Even summoning them will have to take that long, but if you have a small team that can be summoned at any given time to take critical decisions on behalf of the Task Force.
So I believe we should do it in tandem with the Minister and the professionals they would advise which of the Ministry should be removed.

THE CHAIRMAN: In light of the proposer, may I make the following proposer for your consideration Honourable Members.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, please just a Point of Order.

Mr Chairman, I think we also need to have the spirit of the Bill what we are going after or what we need to solve or what we need to achieve is not the volume of the people you see.
This is apolitical case you are saying; you don’t even have the remit.

This Law is created by Parliament given responsibilities to Ministers.

We are not questioning them in attending meetings if they can attend, we have not tested anything about that, if they are going to attend meeting or not.

And you cannot say because you have 25 you want to get ten people for quorum, your responsibility is when meeting is called, given to you by an Act of Parliament you should honour it.
You are working for the State.

We are doing that 58 because we want to see the efficiency of the Bill when it is enacted, so if we are saying we want to water down this Task Force is not fair, it is a Task Force responsible for every action.

The Ministry of Health needs to do the analyses, so is not about Board is about Task Force pro-activeness is what we are looking for, I rest my case.

THE CHAIRMAN: Once you rested it now please let it still be rested [Laughter].

HON.
HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, when we look at the Task Force it is purely a sub Committee of Cabinet and some others.

It is now very hard for us to come and delete Ministers as the Leader of Government Business said is not a Board is a Task Force.
When you look at the composition starting now from the Minister, the Anthony General and so far, I think even the Minister of Gender and Children’s Affairs should be added, because they carry the load of gender particularly women and children.

When you look at this in some other countries the Task Force has a technical team that gives them the support but here they are blended together.
This is pure Cabinet so they need also the technical team people who will be coming with the information with the technical aspect from the Police, the Army, to give them what is happening on the ground.

And even in the Immigration we should not say because the Minister of Internal Affairs is here the Chief Immigration Officer will not be there, the Chief Immigration Officer works every day.

THE CHAIRMAN: Chief… HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Yes Sir.


THE CHAIRMAN: Chief with respect to you we need to come into conclusion on this, what you are saying is covered by sub-paragraph 5 of sub-clause of Clause 4 I draw your attention to page 9.

HON.
HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, talking about human trafficking you are indicating the fact that, when people are being taken in and out of the country a jurisdiction is being affected, because the people either they are taken from the jurisdiction or out of the jurisdiction in that case it could be a Chiefdom, a District and it could be a Province.
And in all of these we have Chiefs 59 and Chiefs are in charge of the people and talking about this trafficking it means it is our people who are going to be affected especially the illiterates and the ignorance ones.

So if these people that have been taken or been brought into the country, they are going to reside in these Chiefdoms or are taken out of these Chiefdoms.
It means the Chiefdoms, the Districts they should have at least a key role to play, in any Task Force that is being set to implement these laws, but from what we are seeing is that from what my colleague said the Task Force consists many Cabinet Ministers and security officers in this country.

This actually questioned the objective of this Law that we are still making.
The Law we are making has more of political objectives than the general governance objectives of this country, because it tends to be a political system that is set up at any given time because if we have changes in politics we have new Ministers, it means these Ministers will have major role to play on this Task Force.
This is a set up kind of political systemic law which cannot actually adequately address the need of the country, so there is need for us to have a further look at this, because the traditional setting, the traditional authority of this country who are also going to be more affected by this Law or by this activity they are not represented or they are not considered.
But then in the implementation of the Law they will be required when needed the perpetrators that will be residing in their Chiefdoms, but if they are not actually playing any role then how can they be considered?

How should they be expected to play any active part in the activities of these perpetrators that will be resided in their Chiefdoms?
And is like even the Paramount Chiefs are not being considered either because is not in the statutory body that can save the purposes of this Law, but we believe that we are an important structure in this country.

So we believe that the Paramount Chiefs should be represented on this Task Force.
THE CHAIRMAN: Chief all I can say is that the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development will be representing all of the Paramount Chiefs because they are answerable to him, that’s the assumption, may be that is the reason why you do not see the Council of the Paramount Chiefs represented or Paramount Chiefs been named as members of the Task Force that is the assumption.

60 HON.
60 HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, when children get missing in our villages the first point of report is the Paramount Chief.

It doesn’t necessary mean because the Minister is overseeing every District or Chiefdom he or she gets all the information, and we would work with the central Police so the argument is very interesting.

I will propose that we have the Minister of Internal Affairs, each Paramount Chief from each of the region so that we can report what is going on.
When you look at the composition of the Task Force you will know that Government is thinking seriously of human trafficking.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Honourable Paramount Chief.

Honourable Members, this particular Clause seems to engage us much longer than I thought, I want to therefore propose to you that you move on.

Let us make progress with the rest and then we come back to it because we may not be able to conclude today.
I want to give Members time to go and consider the composition it seems to be actually delaying the process right now.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, Point of Order.

I think this is a very reasonable House we are bringing all of these because we are concerned and let me make my point.

THE CHAIRMAN: I thought you rested your case.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Let us look at it in the interest of the whole House.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is what I wanted us to do.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, we all want to give our views but you can propose to the House to convince us and direct us on the composition of the Task Force.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay I will do that, thank you.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, page 8 the functions.

61 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes you can move on.

HON.

ABUDL KARIM KAMARA: As we go we correct.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay page 8 then.

HON.


ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: When you look at the function of the Task Force, I think that what held us back because if we would have watched the functions then we would have been able to allocate the institutions based on the functions.

For example, the first one is saying receive and investigate report that is very important and for that you have the Human Right Commission and the Council of Paramount Chiefs.

2.
2.

Monitor the immigration and other areas that Internal Affairs and Immigration Department you take Internal Affairs.

3.

Inform and educate Information Ministry, you go corporate with foreign government.

It is Foreign Affairs.

4.

Advise government on human trafficking that you have the Labour Ministry and the Attorney General.

5.

Fender assistance that you have the Minister of Health, Social Welfare themselves.

6.
6.

You say perform other such functions you have co-opted members I think that is what our problem is.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, so we shall come back to it.

Bearing in mind those functions and before we come back to it the next time I myself will want to engage the Minister for consultation, and I am hereby given notice to the Minister to go and reflect more deeply on the composition, so that by the time we meet again we would spend less time discussing this particular Clause.

Page 9?

HON.
Page 9?

HON.

JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: Mr Chairman, taking into consideration the membership of the Task Force I think the quorum here of four is very small instead of five.

THE CHAIRMAN: No, we can only determine that after we discuss and agree on the composition, thank you.

Page 10?

62 HON.
Page 10?

62 HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Members of the Task Force shall pay such allowances and determine by the Minister of Social Welfare after consultation with the Attorney General and the Minister of Justice and the Ministry of Finance.

Mr Chairman, we should bear in mind that this Task Force are representatives of our various Ministries.

They are representing Ministers; they are expecting Ministers to be seated and all their representatives no below the rank of Directors.
So I believe they should do it pro-bonor.

THE CHAIRMAN: In fact this is double-deeping.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Exactly they should do it pro-bonor.

THE CHAIRMAN: They already been paid in their official capacity I see no reason why they should be given this kind of allowances is double-deeping.

HON.

BASHIUR SILIKIE: Exactly, so we expunge that Clause Madam Minister.

THE CHAIRMAN: We expunging that one?

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: No we examine it again.

HON.

P.C.
HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, I can understand the Minister, but if you are going to bring people from outside of Freetown and you know how the price of fuel is.

I think we have to categorize those who will grab the sitting fees and transportation and so forth.

Even if the sitting is free but the transportation eating and logging must be free.

THE CHAIRMAN: I thought that transportation will be covered by the offices they hold.

HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: No.


THE CHAIRMAN: We did not decide on that yet.

HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: So let us don’t just eliminate everything.

THE CHAIRMAN: So let put a question mark against that.

63 HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Again depending, then we categorise those that we are going to.

THE CHAIRMAN: We would come back to it.

HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Yes, so everything will come back to it.

THE CHAIRMAN: Page 11?

Page 12?

HON.


BASHIRU SILIKIE: Page 11 Mr Chairman, the Executive Director shall hold up office for a term of three years?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Chairman, because of the same sitting position of the Executive Director I want to propose the period of four years instead of three years, so you give him ample time.

You know when you are talking about trafficking these are issues that will have to go to Court; it should have to do with a lot of following up.
And most of the time cases last for quite a considerable period, so I believe we should give the Executive Director the period that will enable him to perform his duties as Executive Director, three years is very short.

HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, may I ask the Deputy Leader and the Minister how is the Executive Director going to be appointed by the President and he is coming from outside of any Ministry or from the Ministry?
THE CHAIRMAN: No, you will be recommended by the Minister.

HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: By the Minister okay.

THE CHAIRMAN: And appointed subject to the approval of Parliament.

HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Okay, so that mean there is no age limit on the appointment of the Executive Secretary.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: We expect that it should be the normal Civil Service age limit Mr Chairman.

64 HON.

P.C.
64 HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: No, we should have it to be beyond 65 years of age.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Paramount Chief, the fact that it is a political appointee, because he or she is going to be recommended by the Minister to the President for appointment and approve by this Parliament, I believe we should not limit His Excellency the President.

We expect the President to use his good judgment in appointing somebody that is fit for the job.
So as it is stated for Ministers we don’t look at age most political appointees come because they want to work.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes we look at age.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: For Ministers we have older Ministers.

THE CHAIRMAN: You have to be an adult.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: That’s very correct, but we cannot talk about age for you to occupy this office so I believe the age should be the same age by coming to Parliament which is 21 years and above.

HON.
HON.

MOSES B. JORKIE: Mr Chairman, in as much as you will be recommended by the Minister appointed by H.E in my view we should have a qualification Clause.

THE CHAIRMAN: From which university again?

HON.

MOSES B. JORKIE: At least we should have a qualification Clause.

THE CHAIRMAN: An accredited university.

HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, I think there you can say, you should have at least a Master degree from a recognized university.
In fact when you read some of all these things and even in Kenya Mr Chairman, they have the Kenya National Qualification Authority and the Secretary there should have a master degree and ten years of experience, so I think we should begin to copy that now.

THE CHAIRMAN: Do we agree first of all with the qualification that has been specified?

65 HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: So if we are going to agree on the qualification then we go back on page 10 section 5.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes is page 10 Clause 5?

HON.


BASHIRU SILIKIE: Clause 5.

THE CHAIRMAN: We have to insert it there.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Yes, with your leave Mr Chairman five reads that there shall be a Task Force with a Secretary headed by an Executive Director appointed by the President on the recommendation of the Minister of Social Welfare and subject to the approval by Parliament to provide Administrative Secretary and other assistance to the Task Force.

THE CHAIRMAN: There has to be a new two.


HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: A new two?

THE CHAIRMAN: A new two that will specify qualifications.

HON.

BAHIRU SILIKIE: This is an administrative role so at least the master degree is the best.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: No the first degree is okay.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I think the master degree is okay.

HON.

ABUDUL KARIM KAMARA: If people are not asked for BECE to come to Parliament why do you want to ask?
There are people who are professionally also, but they own first degree.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: No, these are….

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Accountants are professionals, but they owned first degree.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: But they have a post graduate certificate.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Lawyers?

66 HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Yes.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: You are talking about academic degrees?

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: When they go to Law School is a post graduate degree.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: No Sir, a first degree is okay Mr Chairman.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIA: No, for the purposes sorry Honourable Member you are right but for the purposes of this Task Force is an administrative responsibility that is going to be executed.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Are you saying people with first degree don’t have the administrative acumen?

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Let us consider the experience.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: First degree with 10 years working experience I agree, but let don’t say a master degree.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: No let say at least a master degree.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Let us not say a master degree, the first degree is okay.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Chairman, for you to attain the position of Permanent Secretary in this country you should have acquired first degree.

THE CHAIRMAN: Are you worried of that?

HON.


ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: No, there is no law to that effect, there is no law that Permanent Secretary should have a first degree, you don’t even need the first degree to be a Permanent Secretary, you go through the ranks.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: No.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Ask Mr Chairman he has better idea in that.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: No at least the master degree.

67 HON.
67 HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: No, there is no Law to that, to be a Permanent Secretary you only need to be recruited and go throw the ranks, been a graduate is an advantage, but there is no Law to that effect.

If you have WASSCE and you go through the Civil Service, you go through the ranks you can become a Permanent Secretary.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: So if that is the case?

HON.

ABDUL KARAIM KAMARA: The only thing is a master degree is an advantage.
THE CHAIRMAN: Alright there was a time when we had even the head of the Civil Service and Secretary to the President if I may name names here.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: No please [Laughter].

THE CHAIRMAN: No, a compatriot of yours from Kambia, I don’t think he was known to have even a school certificate degree.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: But Mr Chairman the interesting thing is time has changed but the Laws have not changed.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: No.

HON.


ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: So that is why, I agree with you that time has changed, that is why am saying a first degree plus 10 years working experience is okay.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Now there is a policy within the Civil service that you cannot be a Permanent Secretary without a master degree.

HON.

ABDUAL KARIM KAMARA: No I have not seen that law.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I can tell you authoritatively that all Permanent Secretaries are master degree holders.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: That is meant for them, and am sure that is meant for this debate.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: So for the purposes of this Bill Mr Chairman, this is an administrative responsibility, so I advise that the minimum requiremeent should be a master degree with five years’ experience in administration.

68 THE CHAIRMAN: So plus a master degree?

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Any Social Sciences?

THE CHAIRMAN: The master degree plus any degree in the Social Sciences?

HON.
HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Plus five years.

HON.

JOUSPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: Mr Chairman, I support Mr Leader, but the Clause I will add to it now is from an accredited university.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: No let assume we should not as Parliament.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay leave that to the Draftsman to handle.

HON BASHIRU SILIKIE: Exactly Sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: Page 11?

HON.

P.C.


BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Mr Chairman Sir, if you go right now to page 10 because it a continuation, you will see that this Task Force is going to have a real job to do, because we can see the composition of the Task Force and the addition of the Executive Director appointed under sub-section one.

The secretariat shall have other staff that may include Directors, Managers, Coordinators or such other officers appointed by the Task Force.
So it tells you that it is going to be a very serious Task Force that will carry responsibilities.

So I am appealing to my young man there who is debating and trying to bring a younger person with a Bachelor degree.

I will say we have to stay put for the person who is going to be the Executive Director to have a master’s Degree with ten 10 years of experience because they have already stipulated there.
Managers, Coordinators and so forth other offices going to be appointed by the Task Force themselves and that tells you the sub-cabinet committee will be responsible to appoint in this Bill, this other subordinate that they will deem necessary.

Mr Chairman, we are sick and tired of our children in going to other countries particularly in the Middle East for greener pastures.

HON.

MAADA LEBBIE: Mr Chairman with specific reference to….

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: Mr Chairman page 12 section 10.


69 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on!

Hold on!

What did we agree on the term of the tenure?

Is it five years or three years?

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: We are talking about four years.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: Page 10?

THE CHAIRMAN: No page 12.

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: Okay page 12.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Page 11 Mr Chairman the tenure.

THE CHAIRMAN: Four years?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: We say it is three years.


THE CHAIRMAN: You may propose four years now.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Okay four years but the reappointment is not limited, is it the two terms?

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: No it is two terms.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: This reappointment can go on for as long as [undertone] so is it clear there?

It is not clear.

THE CHAIRMAN: Well it shall be eligible for reappointment for another term only.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Okay thank you Sir.

HON.


P.C BAI KURR KANABAGBRO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, if somebody has taken 38 years and he or she is only employed for 8 years, then he has to go and hustle for another job?

So you know it is a very interesting thing.

THE CHAIRMAN: Chief it is very ….. HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: Mr Paramount Chief that has been the tradition involved in making Laws in this Parliament.
70 THE CHAIRMAN: If I am sure the intention of the Minister was not to make this position a permanent one and I think the consensus around the House is that it should not be a permanent position [Undertone].

HON.

MAADA LEBBIE: Mr Chairman Page 10 Clause 3.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

HON.

MAADA LEBBIE: In addition to the Executive Director appointed under sub- section 1 the secretariat shall have other staff who may include Managers, Directors, Coordinators or such other officers appointed by the Task Force.
The word ‘appointed’ are they going to appoint those Directors or are they going to recruit them, let’s get it clear.

THE CHAIRMAN: Page 12?

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: Mr Chairman, the Task Force shall as soon as practicable after the end of each financial year but within six months thereafter submits to the Minister of Social Welfare and the Attorney General and Minister of Justice.

THE CHAIRMAN: Delete the Attorney General and Minister of Justice.

HON.
HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: Yes we delete the Attorney General and Minister of Justice and we expunge 2.

We now conclude that the Minister shall as soon as practicable present the Annual Report before Parliament.

So let us see how best we can rephrase 10, so we don’t have 10 (1) and 10 (2).

Are you with me Mr Chairman?


THE CHAIRMAN: I am with you but I think you need, first of all the Task Force the Minister needs to receive the Annual Report from the secretariat and that Annual Report would be considered by the Task Force before submitting it to Parliament.

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: No it is the Minister that brings the report to Parliament?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

HON.


BASHIRU SILLIKIE: So when once the report is being presented to the Minister, the Minister would bring the report and lay it on the Table of this House.

71 HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANABGRO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, I think on that note the Executive Secretary or Executive Director will definitely not present to the Minister without the Task Force looking at it.

THE CHAIRMAN: Exactly.

HON.


P.C BAI KURR KANAGBRO SANKA III: So the Task Force should look at it, monitor it and delete what they have to add and then it becomes official document from the Executive Director to present it to the Minister that is how it works.

You don’t expect the Task Force, the Executive Director to write after writing you just present it to the Minister without giving the Annual Report.

HON.
HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: It should be an annual report of the Task Force that is supposed to be vetted.

The Task Force should vent their report and do all the corrections.

HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBRO SANKA III: Yes that is correct.

But Mr Honourable Member from Bo the Minister is the Chairperson of the Task Force and the Minister must read the Executive Director’s report before sending it to Parliament and I am sure the Task Force should be there when they are writing the report.
The Executive Director is just going to write but he is not writing it in terms of saying the report would come from the Task Force and from the Minister.

The Minister will only come to Parliament as an official person to lay it on the Table of Parliament but he or she would have been the person that sat and accepted the report before bringing it to Parliament.

THE CHAIRMAN: Well in practise obviously.

HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANABGRO SANKA III: Yes.


THE CHAIRMAN: In practise the Executive Director would prepare the draft report which would be tabled before the Task Force for consideration and approval and from there the Minister will then present or submit the report of the Task Force to Parliament that is the route it would take.

So what is the objection that we have?

I thought you were only going to delete the reference to the Attorney General.

72 HON.
72 HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: Mr Chairman, with your leave let me do my proposal.

I want it to be read ‘the Task Force shall as soon as practicable after the end of each financial year but within six months thereafter submits to the Minister of Social Welfare an annual report which the Minister shall as soon practicable lay before Parliament’.

Instead of A and B we have just 10 (1) and we expunge 2.

Are you okay Mr Chairman?

THE CHAIRMAN: When does it become the report of the Task Force?

HON.
HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: The report of the Task Force is a report that is presented to the Minister.

First of all the Chairman of the Task Force can either be the Minister or his or her representatives.

THE CHAIRMAN: So what?

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: It is very possible that the Minister can tell somebody to represent her.

THE CHAIRMAN: The draft report….

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: We are not talking about the draft we are talking about the report that has been presented.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay then let us follow the sequence of event they have to be.

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: You cannot present a draft to the Minister, you present a report.

THE CHAIRMAN: Am coming on that.

HON.

BASHIRU SILLIKIE: Okay.

THE CHAIRMAN: I am coming, one of the functions of the Executive Director is to prepare an annual report.

To prepare a draft annual report which he would submit to the Task Force, the Task Force would then consider that report and approve it as a Task Force.
After that approval the Minister would then bring the report and submit it to Parliament as a report of the Task Force.

73 HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBRO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, I agree with you absolutely the Leader of Government Business made it quite crystal clear that this is not a Board, if it is a Board the Minister will not be sitting on the Board.
But since it is a Task Force, and the Minister is the Chairperson of that Task Force, obviously the Task Force sends the report through the Minister to Parliament.

So I don’t see any conflict there because the person there is the Chairperson of the Task Force.

So the report would not come from anywhere without going through the Task Force headed by the Minister.

So the Minister he or she would bring his or her own report together with the Task Force that he or she is working with.
So for me I don’t see the Minister just because according to the Constitution and the normal practices he or she will lay the paper or the report on the Table of the House.

So we have to amend what you have been saying Mr Deputy Chair.

We would agree when you want to put it together in one place and say the report would come from the Task Force to Parliament presented by the Minister.

THE CHAIRMAN: Page 13?

HON.

MATTHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman I was waiting for you.

THE CHAIRMAN: Oh you are back?

HON.


MATTHEW S. NYUMA: Yes I am back [Laughter].

THE CHAIRMAN: You did not report your presence.

HON.

MATTHEW S. NYUMA: Well I think my physical appearance tells you that I am around [laughter].

I don’t see why the normalcy for conformity of the law and for the other Act I have not seen him talking about practicable.

THE CHAIRMAN: Not that.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: I don’t agree with that phrase ‘practicable’ where is the practicality of it?
In fact I am pleading for three months, six months is too much almost half of the year.

So it takes three months better than taking six months down the line.

So practicable is a way of delaying the report to be laid.

74 THE CHAIRMAN: Then we can delete the word ‘as soon as practicable.’ HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes it should not be there.

THE CHAIRMAN: No because the Minister has shares in the Task Force because he would have participated in the approval of the Task Force.
So why the Minister should then be allowed to delay the submission of the report to Parliament?

HON.

MATTHEW S. NYUMA: For six months?

THE CHAIRMAN: That is what is containing in the Bill.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No the time given is six months.

THE CHAIRMAN: Look at sub-clause 2 there is no need for sub-clause two.

Once the approval; of the report has been done by the Task Force then it becomes a perfunctory Act on the part of the Task Force to submit it to Parliament.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, it would not cause any harm if it is removed.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes it will not.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: That it should not have caused any disaster to be kept.

THE CHAIRMAN: No, it would cause some disaster if it is kept.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Let us remove it.

THE CHAIRMAN: Let us remove it because the Minister can seat on the report without bringing it to Parliament.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Okay.

HON.


MATTHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, as I said you were looking at the conformity and with the aid of the Clerks I have got one.

In fact we are not to paraphrase 10 (1) we do it as one.

We subsume two into one.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

75 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: We have done that already, but other Act they are talking about 30 days why 3 months in this case.

THE CHAIRMAN: No 6 months.

HON.


MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes 6 months after receiving a report if I can read from the National Telecommunications Acts within 30 days of receipt of the report and it should be in conformity with other Acts so this one cannot be an exception 30 days that is what we have.

THE CHAIRMAN: Instead of 6 months?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Even 3 months is more, 6 months is too much.

THE CHAIRMAN: No 3 months is okay.

HON.


P.C BAI KURR KANAGBRO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, why 3 months because the Task Force wrote the report?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes so why 3 months?

HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBRO SANKA III: Why 3 months?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: I can understand 30 days maybe there are problems.

HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBRO SANKA III: It should even be 3 months.

The Board should present to the Minister; the Minister may read the report and see something that is not good enough.
We want to change it before making it official but in this case he or she chairs the Task Force.

So for me Mr Chairman why should the Minister keep it for 3 months?

THE CHAIRMAN: Let us be clear, let’s go back to 10 (1).

HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBRO SANKA III: Yes Sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: Is the 6 months too long or okay?

HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBRO SANKA III: Not even necessary Mr Chairman because they wrote the report is not the Board, it is a Task Force.

THE CHAIRMAN: So let us reduce it to 3 months.


76 HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBRO SANKA III: Well the Task Force is not moving quickly because when you say Task Force it moves.

THE CHAIRMAN: One month?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: That is because the reason is most of the issues raised by the Task Force are contemporary issues that have the tendency to change and you must take appropriate and fast decisions on them.

So keeping them for 3 months maybe the dynamics would have even changed.
You have to work on the report that is why it is brought to Parliament we have to review our legislations, so one month Paramount Chief I support.

THE CHAIRMAN: I think let’s leave it for one month duration because we’re not giving the Minister any authority to interfere with the report once it has been approved by the Task Force.

Page 13?

Can I raise a question?


When I read this last Clause 11, 11 (2), I found it very strange that the Board of Trusties or let us start first with 11 (1) there is here by establish a fund to be called the victims of human trafficking trust fund which shall be administered by a Board of Trusties.

Now go to 2, the Board of Trusties of the victims of human trafficking trust fund shall consist of a chairman and not less than two other members appointed by the Minister.

HON.
HON.

JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: Mr Chairman, then it has to be three 3 persons.

THE CHAIRMAN: No is the composition of the trusties.

Only 3?

But let us ask the Minister maybe she has a good reason why she wants to limit the number to 3.

I find it very strange [undertone].

HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBRO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, when you go down to 2 (A) you would see lot of chairmen and not less than two other members appointed by the Minister after consultation with the Attorney General.
THE CHAIRMAN: No forget about that Attorney General we have dealt with it earlier.

HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: But we should just say the Task Force shall appoint 5 people to be on that trust fund that is all the amendment there.

77 The Task Force itself will appoint not the Minister again because the Minister is the Chairperson of the Task Force.

So she can sit down there and allow 5 people to be selected from the Task Force [undertone].
So why the Minister should just come in again and appoint others [undertone], that is why we gave the chair the powerful position to the Minister to chair it.

So there is no need for her again to come and say 5 or 7 people.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, I think let us agree to have 5 people.

THE CHAIRMAN: The Chairman plus 4.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: The Chairman plus 4 because even the executive when you go to [B] the Executive Director who shall also be the secretary plus five people.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay to read the Chairman and not less than four other members appointed by the Task Force.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, I don’t know why fighting over this language.

THE CHAIRMAN: Who is fighting?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: They said not less than 2, it can be 30 just look at it.

THE CHAIRMAN: No let us be specific here.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: If you go for the appointed members by the Minister who is then the chair?

THE CHAIRMAN: You are dealing with money.

HON.


MATHEW S. NYUMA: After consultation with the Board and the Task Force is clear that is why they said not less than two.

You are limiting us now; this has been limited not less than two, chairman and not less than two.

THE CHAIRMAN: My understanding of a chairman and not less than two means you can have a Board of Trusties comprise of three people, the chairman plus two people.

78 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No not less than two.

THE CHAIRMAN: Oh yes of course.


HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: So you can have a person from even the private sector.

THE CHAIRMAN: No!

No!

No!

They are not saying that.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No that is what is here, it is very clear.

THE CHAIRMAN: But you can limit it to two and you are still within the Act.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Not less than depending on the operations of the fund.

So you can even form less than three or such shall be three people, why you want to be specific when dealing with funds?
THE CHAIRMAN: Read that Clause carefully I think you are not reading it.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No I have read it, it says a Chairman and not less than two other members, members it means the Task Force or three appointed by the Minister after consultation with the Attorney General.

THE CHAIRMAN: No they should be appointed by the Task Force.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: I don’t have problem with that but that word ‘not less than’ there is nothing wrong with it because this is a fund.

THE CHAIRMAN: No we are.


HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Where do you want us to have five, what is your justification, if I want to have ten or twenty?

THE CHAIRMAN: Not less than four.

HON.

MATTHEW S. NYUMA: No I just want to ask.

THE CHAIRMAN: So four plus the Chairman making five administered the fund?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Why do you want to limit us to five you are forming a trust fund?

If you want to involve the international community to put money into that basket you want to have….
79 THE CHAIRMAN: No!

No!

No!

They should be members of the trust fund.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Of the trust fund?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes of course.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: So why five?

THE CHAIRMAN: They should be members of the Task Force.

I think I don’t know where it comes from Mr Leader [laughter].

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No you said three I heard you clearly; you are talking about three and is clear I was waiting for you to land.

THE CHAIRMAN: What do you understand by ‘not less than’ two?

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: That means you can go, you cannot have minimum number ‘not less than two, you can have five, six, and ten not less than that.

THE CHAIRMAN: You can have five, six, ten and above.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: But not less than that.

THE CHAIRMAN: No it means you can have …… HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: But you are limiting us now in setting up a fine.

THE CHAIRMAN: My understanding is you can have from two and above.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes.


THE CHAIRMAN: Fine, so if you say Chairman and ‘not less than’ two, you can have a total of three.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes maybe but it is not limiting you.

HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, from this debate it is becoming too open ended and it is not good for legislation.

THE CHAIRMAN: Of course is not good.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: I asked why the five, why not ten that is just a justification am looking for.

80 HON.

P.C.
80 HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Let us correct it.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Chief, Deputy Leader of the Opposition is talking about money just read the caption it is victim of human trafficking trust fund, you can have people local and international; this Bill addressed both local and international.

THE CHAIRMAN: And therefore it cannot be ten million people?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No I am not saying am just asking you why do you have five that is the question you have not answered.
THE CHAIRMAN: Because five is reasonable as well.

HON.

MATTHEW S. NYUMA: Why is it reasonable is it local or international?

Anyway I concealed to five but I don’t see much of it.

THE CHAIRMAN: No!

I don’t see anywhere where reference is made to international.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No cooperation where you have victims when you are talking about human trafficking persecution under judicial case proceedings.

THE CHAIRMAN: We are talking about the composition of the Board of Trusties.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No, is all part of the victims when they talk about restitutions.

They have confiscation of property.

HON.

CHERNOR R.M.

BAH: Check towards the Vote and Proceedings it is there.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: It is there in the Bill?

Let us agree for five it will come again for amendment.

HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Can we ask the Minister what they have in mind?

THE CHAIRMAN: Exactly.

HON.

P.C.


BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: When did they draft that component of the legislation?

THE CHAIRMAN: Madam Minister please.

81 HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: She might not even be there when they were drafting it.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay but still she is the one piloting it.

HON.

P.C.

BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: The Bill she ought to know.

MRS BAINDU DASSAMA KAMARA: Thank you very much.


This was just a proposal and we do welcome all the other suggestions that are coming on board but like the Leader of Government Business said ‘not less than two’ really could be ten, twenty and more but then like I said it is just a proposal.

HON.
HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, may I hit this bomb shell here now that the composition of the Task Force should not be dominated by more than two for gender reason because what I am seeing in this proposal all are men, very few women on this.

THE CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, I would stand the House down for five minutes.

HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: I thought you said 2:30 we are going home.

THE CHAIRMAN: I have been prepared to say that.

HON.
HON.

P.C BAI KURR KANAGBARO SANKA III: Mr Chairman, well S.O.

(2) ‘are get for go hustle for cut fast.

TABLE CLERK: The House resumes.

HON.

JOSEPH WILLIAM-LAMIN: Suspension of S.O 5[2].

THE CHAIRMAN: Any Seconder?

HON.

BRIMA MANSARAY: I so second Mr Chairman.

[Question Proposed put and Agreed to] THE CHAIRMAN: Page 13?

We were on page 13 and I think we settled Clause 11.

82 Clause 11 what is the figure there?

Let try and reach an agreement on this.

HON.


JOSEPH LAMIN WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman we last agreed that it should be the Chairman and not less than four [4] [Undertones], why four [4] so that we have the odd number the Chairman not less than four [4] will be five [5] so that they will manage the trust fund.

THE CHAIRMAN: And to be appointed by the taskforce.

HON.
HON.

NENNEH LEBBIE: I will suggest that the Chairman and not less than five so that when you get the Chairman plus the five members then you get the Executive Secretary which is seven.

THE CHAIRMAN: No the Executive Secretary is not a member.

Not a member, he serves as the Secretary to the trust fund.

HON.

NENNEH LEBBIE: Okay Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN: So it has to be four [4] the odd number.

Page 14?

Page 15?

I have some problems here, it sad we don’t have the Draftsman here.
Now the whole purpose of this Bill Honourable Members, as we can see the whole purpose of this Bill is to prosecute to make human trafficking an offence that is why I found it rather strange when you read Clause 12.

I would have thought Clause 12 should start up by proscribing Human Trafficking as a crime it doesn’t do that, that should be the very opening of that Clause.
Human trafficking is hereby proscribed as a crime or condemned as a serious crime and then you go on to say no person shall be engaged in human trafficking and so on and so forth.

Madam Minister, can you tell us why that particular Clause is drafted the way it is?

We see no condemnation of human trafficking as a crime in the Bill [Undertones].

MRS BAINDU DASSAMA: Mr Chairman, this was done by the Draftsman but whatever Parliament decides we will go by it.

I thank you.
I thank you.

83 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, we will have to read that particular Clause to make it abundantly clear that Human Trafficking is a crime and a very serious crime for that matter, and whoever engages in it is committing a serious offence.

HON.

IBRAHIM B. KARGBO: With regards to that aspect, the legislation so perhaps we can go ahead and do that.

THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.

HON.


JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: Mr Chairman, but I think it is indicated in Clause 12[3] that it came in but very late and at the same time there is nothing stating about a fine.

THE CHAIRMAN: No!

No!

No!

Look, just pay attention to Clause 12.

Look at the side notes this is exactly what I was saying.

If you look at the side notes what does it say?


Human Trafficking prohibited that is exactly how that Clause should have started, is not in the body is in the side notes; any way we will take care of it in the drafting.

Now the next thing I want to raise for your consideration Members, look at three, a person who engages in human trafficking commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a term of imprisonment of not less than fifteen years.
Is fifteen years actually a kind of punishment that should be given to a Human Trafficker?

A serious offence of this nature I think they should carry something like 25 to 30 years.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Chairman, let bear in mind that in this Parliament we decided that life imprisonment is 20 or 25 years.

THE CHAIRMAN: Is what?

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: 20 or 25 years I could not remember.

THE CHAIRMAN: Not 25 years but 30 years minimum we said it.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I think 15 years is good.


THE CHAIRMAN: In some jurisdiction human trafficking carries a death penalty.

84 HON.

BRIMA MANSARAY: Mr Chairman, not less than 25 years as you have said is adequate.

I am suggesting we go not less than 25 years.

THE CHAIRMAN: So we change 15 years to 25 years is that the consensus?

Well I have asked, okay he says let me put the question.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Yes Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes you want me to put it, you insisted?
[Question Proposed Put and Agreed to] THE CHAIRMAN: So we changed that to 25 years.

Now then cross boarder trafficking for sex or labour exploitation prohibited and the penalty there is 10 years not less than ten that is Clause 13[2].

HON.

BRIMA MANSARAY: Yes Clause 13[2] we also have to increase that from not less than ten to not less than fifteen years.

THE CHAIRMAN: Is that the consensus 25 years?

HON.

BRIMA MANSARAY: 25 years because trafficking a person is a crime.

HON.
HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: You know when we are making Laws we should be bear in mind that these Laws should stand the test of time.

THE CHAIRMAN: And this one will not?

HON.


BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Chairman, let me read 13[1] a person shall not knowingly transport another person across an international boarder for the purposes of sexual exploitation, including prostitution or for the purposes of labour exploitation domestic servitude, slavery or practices similar to slavery I believe it should be a minimum of ten years.

THE CHAIRMAN: What are you saying now?

85 HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I believe it should stand like this.
And we give the option to the Judge to determine, this is not less than ten years but the option will be with the Judge to increase to either 15, 20, 25 or as the case maybe.

HON.

DR MARK M. KALOKOH: Mr Chairman, in fact this particular Clause it is so great that it has intent and the intent here is clear.
It talks about trafficking somebody for the purposes of sexual exploitation, so it is grave, even the fine here should be even more than the previous ones we have just discussed so this is a graver situation, so we go for 25 years.

But to say you transport somebody as a domestic servitude and at the same time for sexual exploitation only to be imprisoned for 25 years, this is grave.
I have scanned through this document I do not see where human trafficking is defined and when you look at part 4 here, it connotes offences of human trafficking and when you look at the definition there is no part in this Bill where human trafficking was defined so we will like to know from Madam Minister.

THE CHAIRMAN: It is defined Honourable Member.

HON.

DR MARK M. KALOKOH: Can I be referred to Mr Chairman?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

HON.


DR MARK M. KALOKOH: I saw the word but the word itself Human Trafficking can you sight where it was defined?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes it is.

HON.

DR MARK M. KALOKOH: Give me that Mr Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN: I refer you to Clause 12[2] a person engages in human trafficking under sub section 1 if for the purposes of exploitation, you undertake the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or recite of person by means of threat or use of force or other forms of cohesion of adoption or fraud of deception the use of power or preposition of vulnerability or of the giving or receiving of payment to obtain the consent of a person having control of another person.

86 HON.
86 HON.

DR MARK M. KALOKOH: Thank you Mr Chairman.

I therefore refer you to page 5 where the definition of trafficking was proffered so that you see the reference they made.

Trafficking means the offence of trafficking of persons stated in section 12 the one you have just read, so the word itself human trafficking was not defined Mr Chairman[Undertones] they only cited the wordings of human trafficking but it was not defined as human trafficking to say human trafficking means it was not [Undertones].
THE CHAIRMAN: With the greatest respect to you Honourable Member, if you look at 12[2] it is defined.

Shall we please proceed?

So what are we changing, are we changing that one to 25 as well?

HON.

JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: Mr Chairman, you are thinking about 20 years instead of 25.

THE CHAIRMAN: Let us compromise 15 years.

HON.

JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: 15?

THE CHAIRMAN: 15 years.

HON.


BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Chairman, you give an alternative to the Court, they are saying not less than 10 years the Judge can decide otherwise.

The Judge can go as much as 20, 25, and 30 depending on the crime.

Mr Chairman, we have issues where some people take their staff to conferences they abuse them, you cannot say you are jailing that individual for instance for more than 20 years.
I am saying let us make a Law that will stand the test of time, you give room to the Judge to determine but you cannot sentence less than 10 years for the decision of increasing the sentence that depends on the Judge.

The Judge can go as much as 30 years.

THE CHAIRMAN: I am shocked by the example you gave [Undertones].

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Chairman, this is under the sun, everything happens under the sun [Interruptions].

87 HON.
87 HON.

MARK M. KALOKOH: You did not go with the intention of trafficking that individual to become sexually exploited.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Give room to the Judge to determine based on the evidence.

HON.

SAMA SANDY: Mr Chairman, I want you look at the conditions that characterise human trafficking.

Does that obtain in your scenario?

THE CHAIRMAN: Which scenario?

HON.

SAMA SANDY: Is it by cohesion, is it deception?

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: No, it is happening all over [Undertones].
You are not making Laws for this Parliament; we are making Laws that will stand the test of time.

HON.

JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: If that is so Mr Leader, I have never contradicted you, and if we want to change the narrative therefore we should increase on the penalty of imprisonment [Applause] because it is an abuse of office, and at the same time an abuse of power [Interruption].

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: We leave the room for the Judge to determine, the Judge can do as much as 40 years.

HON.
HON.

BRIMA MANSARAY: Mr Chairman, with all due respect to the Acting Leader, based on his scenario we can now have a compromise point of 15 years [Interruptions].

There is room for the Judge not less than 15 years; the Judge can go for as much as 20 years to 25 years depending on the gravity of the crime before him.

So I am saying we can leave it at 15 years.

HON.


DR MARK M. KALOKOH: Mr Chairman, let me tell you one thing, sometimes the Court relies on us and if sometimes the Court relies on us so therefore let us make something that will help the Court and what will help the Court here is the severity as just been reemphasised by Mr Leader.
Mr Leader you have just reemphasised the severity of this particular Clause by citing the example you made and therefore to say 88 we meet at a compromise point of 20 years is okay because this is a great situation wherein you traffic somebody and you apply sexual exploitation on that individual.

Let us take a look at the Sexual Offensive Act that we have passed here and let us draw some examples from there.
THE CHAIRMAN: Look at sub Clause 3 it says; a person convicted of an offence under sub section 1 shall serve a term of not less than 15 years if anyone of the following aggravating circumstances is present.

So in fact our thinking by changing it from 10 years to 15 years is not very different from what the Drafters of this Bill had in mind so let keep it at 15 years.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: When you look at the definition, there are key words we ought to understand there; it says somebody who harbours.
For example, somebody is bringing somebody from Mauritania and he is my friend I have no idea of the early transaction but he brings that person to my house I am harbouring the person and they find out it is human trafficking what becomes of me?

THE CHAIRMAN: Where is the word harbour?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Go to the definition Mr Chairman [Undertones].

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes harbouring is there, but you are not harbouring him.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Whose resident is the person?


The victim is in my resident and I have no idea of what the early transaction was [Undertone].

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Let me help you Honourable, is harbouring or receipt?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: S.O [2] DR KALOKOH DUYA RECIVE DIS PIKIN FOR MI NA AIRPOT.

You are also a culprit, you have no idea.

Mr Leader even the driver that brings the child from Makeni to Freetown is also culpable in this law.

Let us look at the definition critically.


THE CHAIRMAN: You are not receiving.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, we are making a Law [Laughter].

89 THE CHAIRMAN: What was your intent when you received your visitor?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: My Intent for receiving?

THE CHAIRMAN: Was your intent criminal or not.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: No it is not.

THE CHAIRMAN: Exactly.

HON.


ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: And that is left with the Court to prove, and because it left with the Court to prove it also left with the Judge [Undertone].

THE CHAIRMAN: Are you confessing then that you have been receiving?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, I have been in a situation wherein most times our relatives from Guinea will send people and we receive them.

THE CHAIRMAN: Well make sure you don’t receive on the opposite sex.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Even my friends from Parliament will send people to Kambia to wait for them until they come [Laughter].

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Mr Chairman, harbour doesn’t necessarily mean the opposite sex, even the same sex.

HON.

DR MARK M. KALOKOH: Mr Chairman, one key word I want us to underscore for the purpose of exploitation that sentence crowns it all.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

HON.


DR MARK M. KALOKOH: If you do not have that purpose of exploiting somebody then you did not commit the crime.

THE CHAIRMAN: I will recommend that you become a Law student [Laughter].

Actually I have a long list of the fake universities I can make it available to you [Laughter].

Thank you we have had some fun shall we proceed?

Page 18?

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: No we have not completed Sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: Which one?

90 HON.


BASHIRU SILIKIE: We are still at the end of 15, as have been said by the Honourable Member I am still of the conviction that we give the option to the Judge and we do a limit of ten years depending on the crime and the level of offence.

THE CHAIRMAN: So you insist on 10 years?

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Yes we give a limit of 10 years and the Judges now have an option to sentence as much as 40 years.

THE CHAIRMAN: I want a Motion.

HON.

MARK M. KALOKOH: I think we concede.


HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: Thank you Sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: I am still looking for a Motion.

HON.

BRIMA MANSARAY: Mr Chairman I concede.

HON.

SAMA SANDY: Mr Chairman I support.

THE CHAIRMAN: I know we are in the round up to elections [Laughter] people are looking for recommendations.

Page 16?

Page 17?

Page 18?

Can someone please move?

HON.

BRIMA MANSARAY: I so move Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN: Any Seconder?

HON.

SAMA SANDY: I so second Mr Chairman.


[Question Proposed Put and Agreed To] THE CHAIRMAN: Madam Minister are you with us?

Madam Minster we seem to be running ahead of you please we are reversing back, let come back to where you have to make the Motion excluding the composition we would come back to it.

MRS BAINDU DASSAMA KAMARA: Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, I move that parts 1,2,3,4,and 5 Clauses One to Ninety stand part of the Bill as amended.
91 THE CHAIRMAN: Except for Clause Two the composition.

Honourable Members, the question is that parts 1,2,3,4, and 5 Clauses One through to Nineteen stand part of the Bill as amended, except for Clause Two, dealing with the composition of the Task Force which we shall return to later.

[Question Proposed Put and Agreed To] MRS BAINDU DASSAMA KAMARA: Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, I move that parts six, seven and eight Clauses twenty through to thirty nine stand as part of the Bill.
[QUESTION PROPOSED] HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: I don’t know if we are not going to move with uniformity in terms of the fine because here the fine is saying One Hundred and Fifty Thousand Leones.

THE CHAIRMAN: Which Clause?

HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: Clauses two, hundred and Fifty Million Leones so I want to suggest that we bring it down to One hundred Million Leones.

THE CHAIRMAN: On what?

HON.


DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: If you look at the side notes Clause twenty one [1] then when you come to twenty one [2] you can see the fine of one hundred and fifty million Leones.

I have seen the gravity of aiding migrants smuggling prohibited I suggest we bring it down to one hundred million Leones.

Have you seen the area Mr Chairman?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes I have.

This is aiding migrant smuggling.


Let us be clear what this offence relates to, it is aiding and abating a person who is not a citizen or a permanent resident of Sierra Leone to remain in Sierra Leone, without complying with the necessary requirements for legally remaining in Sierra Leone, that’s the offence.

And the fine there is hundred and Fifty Million Leones, and the Honourable Member is saying it should be reduced to One Hundred Million Leones.

92 HON.
92 HON.

JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: Looking at the explanation below there the person is not a Sierra Leonean and if he has travelled all the way here I think that amount of money has been stipulated there is quite enough.
The fact that you know the law and the reason why you are aiding that particular migrant, we are talking about local content policy where you support fellow Sierra Leoneans to gain employment and here in this situation you are aiding someone to occupy that particular position I think that offence is a very reasonable one.

HON.
HON.

SAMA SANDY: Mr Chairman, Looking at the previous offence for which we stated for Hundred Million and the previous one is graver than this one we are talking about now so I do support Dr Kaloko’s position of reducing it.

I support his position to reduce it to the same One Hundred Million Leones, because this one is talking about somebody aiding and abating and the previous one is talking about somebody directly participating [interruption].

HON.
HON.

JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMINS: if it is Doctor who has proposed it and he is a Doctor [Laughter].

HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: As somebody coming from America I want you to go to Los Angeles Church and Institute and find out about Kalokoh then you will see my name there.

Go there I have given you the reference so don’t mention me to Dominion University.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, it says a person shall not for the purpose of aiding migrant smuggling procure, provide or possesses fraudulent traveling or identity document, this one is worse than even the person.

This is a Sierra Leonean who is here, he goes to Immigration and he does the birth certificate to forge the age of children to get their passports, because most time these foreigners do not go to these offices it is Sierra Leonean that actually runs the errands.
If there are strong fines to prohibit Sierra Leoneans then the foreigner would not have a leg to stand on this the Two Hundred Million Leones.

93 HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: Mr Chairman, sometimes we pity the youth because they have exuberant to be embarking on such activities so go to Five hundred Million Leones, but I would say for consistency sake let us hold it to One hundred Million Leones and we give the latitude to the Court to determine, upwards not less than One Hundred Million Leones.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: with the language added I might consider not less than One Hundred and Fifty Million Leones.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, I don’t want to repeat myself by saying we don’t want to make crime lucrative, we are just looking at this thing because we are taking the concept of Sierra Leone because human trafficking is all over the place.
We are trying to mitigate human trafficking and if you are following Aljazeera programs you would realise that there is huge human trafficking going on right across child pornography, sex slavering etc.

etc.

This is the one Bill I have seen the fines levied are very considerate and what they did if you have looked at it they have not given options and very few areas that they gave options.
Sometimes they will say go imprisonment of five years or seven years at least but they would not give option either you pay or you go to prison.

Majority of the penalties is levied and is cleared that you have been given ten years imprisonment without fines when you are found guilty.

Mr Chairman, I believe we don’t want to make a crime lucrative is good.
I want to encourage my colleagues that Fifteen thousand Dollars is One hundred and Fifty Million is far less of what you are imagined that is less than Fifteen thousand Dollars, and some of these crimes are internationally coordinated so if you are saying you want to mitigate and one of the ways to mitigate is to make sure that the penalties levied are really substantial.

In fact, if you compare this legislation in terms of fines with other best practice this is far below the belt, this is nothing.
So for me I will just don’t want to impose fines because the way it is expensive and I don’t want you to look at yourself as you are going to commit the crime.

Look at yourself as you are finding ways to mitigate the crime, so let leave it at One hundred and Fifty Million Leones.
I plead with my colleagues on the other side, for the good of this human trafficking we can embrace it, 94 we are human beings, we are prestigious and God created us in his likeness and image, so that is why we are going after the perpetrators and protect the victims but you are going for Hundred Million Leones.
THE CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, I thought frankly when the Leader came back in he came back with some good briefing, and he was going to ask that we increase the fine, because what is becoming apparently around the world as human trafficking is a big business, and what we should seek to do here is to criminalise it, to discourage it and to get rid of it as far as our country is concerned, and the human trafficking I am afraid is increasing exponentially in Africa, and some of our nationals are taken abroad not for employment purposes but for the purposes of harvesting their organs against their consent you must bear that in mind.
The harvesting of human organs is another aspect of this human trafficking that is so disgusting and intolerable that we must not give it scope in our jurisdiction.

I believe we should impose stringent penalty to discourage it and to stop it from flourishing in our jurisdiction, so Hundred and Fifty Million Leones is nothing to traffickers we should be increasing penalty here.

HON.
HON.

JOSEPH WILLIAMS-LAMIN: By the time we denominate the Leones and we have to remove all that zero and this will be a huge sum of money.

Mr Chairman, I agreed with you because Government is continuity you know what we inherited from H.E.

the President when he was in Lebanon where Sierra Leoneans were crying day by day to come back home, and we inherited that huge responsibility by bringing them back to Sierra Leone.
We have to be mindful of that and therefore I support what you have said just by adding that clause what we inherited and if those women who have been there and what they have done to them, and if they go to any meaningful home for settlement it would be very difficult I bet anybody.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KAMARA: Mr Chairman, let don’t depend on the denomination as a reason for holding the figures as they are, because the Judges would have to make their ruling based on the current value of the digit not on the time the crime would be committed and with all you have emphasized I think even an increment of what I said Two Hundred Million Leones just now but even Two Hundred and Fifty Million Leones 95 could suffice for this kind.
My age does not call me to be a criminal, and they are not also criminals.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, we are not intending to represent criminals here our representation has to do with positive thinking Sierra Leoneans just because of I need your vote that doesn’t mean I have to lure you into illegal things.
Mr Chairman, I agreed with you perfectly the business of human trafficking is becoming something worrisome in the Sub Saharan Africa I can tell you for free, so I support my colleagues I thought you wanted to use the One Hundred and Fifty Million Leones.

Mr Chairman, if that is the case you have passed page seventeen.
There is serious penalty imposed we are talking but not less than five years, Clause two a person who contravenes sub section one commits an offence and shall on conviction you serve a term of imprisonment not less than five years.

The good things that I enjoyed about this thing, there are areas they don’t give alternative Mr Chairman which is very good.

So for me in this case for five years thinking about the crime that is fraudulent adoption etc.

etc.
etc.

and five years is given, so you are doing that in tandem with the One Hundred and Fifty Million Leones you are proposing the Two Hundred Million I think you should also change this one to ten years.

We should also change it to ten years because if you go to Clause fifteen [one] and you read the crime committed in fifteen one and with fifteen [two] a penalty levied is very small, because is a double crime levied in fifteen [one] so giving five years Mr Chairman is very minimal.
THE CHAIRMAN: So you are talking here about Clause twenty one?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No two crimes in fifteen [one].

They are talking about two, misrepresentation, retrieving or payment in fact is three to obtain the consent of the Government officials, parents, relatives or other is really grief, so that one should go to ten, and coming back to your point under twenty and like what you said, I think I want to agree with Honourable Abdul Karim Kamara that Two Hundred Million Leones is better for us.
THE CHAIRMAN: So you are saying fifteen two will change from five years to ten, is that a concession?

96 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: They are supporting it because it is a triple crime and now we don’t need to belabour on the point they have done their best, in fact they should not be given alternative they started very well.

I presume that is the reason Honourable Member over there is pressing for Two Hundred Million Leones because there is an alternative charge not less than seven years.
Let us preserve the dignity of human beings we should not use our humanity for making money.

We should be a humanity to promote human beings of our kinds.

So for me I believe Two Hundred Million Leones suffices the penalty instead of One Hundred and Fifty Million Leones I rest my case Sir.

HON.

MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: Mr Chairman, can we have an explanation on the use of the ETC of victim’s irrelevance?

I am citing one of the side notes of Clause 17.

Why the use of ETC?
Why the use of ETC?

I want to suggest that anywhere we see ETC we change it.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, we have changed by the way let’s go back to 15(2) we have changed that to ten years.

Sixteen, the practice of these smugglers and traffickers is to withhold the passports of the victims and frankly, we should look at the penalty for that.

It looks too minimal here.

The penalty is expressed to be again Hundred Million Leones.
They deliberately withhold passports and other identification documents from the person they traffic to prevent them from escaping from their traffickers.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, for me I don’t believe in fact we should put monetary penalty.

I want to take you to page 16(3); a person convicted on an offence under sub section one, shall serve a term not less than fifteen years and what is the fine?

THE CHAIRMAN: Where?

HON MATHEW S. NYUMA: Go to page 16 and start with page 15.
We are talking about cross broader trafficking for labour exploitation prohibited.

That is fifteen [1], 13(1) and the penalty giving is fifteen years.

Now coming to what you have said with multiple crimes committed destroy, conceive, remove, sophisticate or possess a passport, immigrant document belonging to another person for an unlawful purpose 97 and they said a charge for that is Hundred Million Leones.
For me, there are some of these crimes; you don’t monetize them because the gravity of human trafficking is so huge that we just increase it at least not less than seven years.

For me I am really not in favour of putting monetary business in it because human trafficking is a huge business.

Even when you move from point A to point B if you are following documentary you are making money.

It is another trend of cocaine deal.

For every level of trafficking, you get money.


If I move people from here to Guinea Bissau, they would give me my own share.

So the best way as you said for you not to be identified or even if you escape you have nowhere to go is to do some of these things against the victim.

So for me I don’t want us to monitarise the penalty.

We have there fifteen years let us make this one at least seven years.

Let us forget about this money business.


They can charge people and sometimes people sometimes don’t even pay.

They will say they will pay and maybe they will pay minimal amount.

The value of that one in fact by time it will depreciate.

THE CHAIRMAN: I’m incline to agree with you, you are talking here about 16 [2]?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes 16 [2].

THE CHAIRMAN: In that case I would like to synchronise 15 [2] with 16 [2] they should be the same.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes ten years.


THE CHAIRMAN: Their crime is the same they are dealing with documentation.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: 15 [2] is the same as in 16 [2].

THE CHAIRMAN: And if you say, you don’t want to monetarise it then we delete the fine, and make provision for custodial sentences.

Is that agreed?

HON.

JOSEPINE MAKIEU: Yes can I say something Mr Chairman?

THE CHARIMAN: You’ve been out for quite a while now you want to say something.

98 HON.
98 HON.

JOSEPINE MAKIEU: I went to eat, we are talking about them but there is one thing very important also Mr Chairman that most of these people that when they are trafficking these kids, are you listening Mr Chairman?

THE CHAIRMAN: Am listening go ahead.

HON.

JOSEPINE MAKIEU: They put these kids in travel bags and chordophone them and during the cause the child dies, what happens if you are caught with the child?

THE CHAIRMAN: We’ve dealt with that one.


This one is the falsification of document, the withholding of documentation, so let restrict our attention to this.

So 16 [2] we are saying we get rid of the fine so is liable on conviction to a term of imprisonment of not less than ten years full stop.

Is that agreed?

We were at page eighteen now we have gone to twenty one again what do you have to say Mr Leader you came back with a very fresh mind?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: But I have already made the submission.
THE CHAIRMAN: No 21[2].

HON.

MATHEW NYUMA: Yes I supported the Honourable Member from the other side, from what he said he explained looking at the crime here, if you read 21[1] that the person shall not for the purpose of aiding… THE CHAIRMAN: A non-Sierra Leonean to remain in Sierra Leone?

HON MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes this one is good and they came further to levy a fine this one we can accept the fine and the imprisonment.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes but the fine is small.

HON.


MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes the fine is small we agreed on Two Hundred Million Leones.

THE CHAIRMAN: Why not Two Hundred and Fifty Million Leones?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Is because this is aiding and abating.

99 THE CHAIRMAN: We are penalising these people because we want to get rid of them or to stop them.

HON.

MATHEW NUYMA: Okay Two Hundred and Fifty Million Leones.

THE CHAIRMAN: Is that agreed?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes.


THE CHAIRMAN: That is Two Hundred and Fifty Million Leones and the imprisonment is ten years, instead of not less than ten years?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes not less than ten years.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you shall we move on?

The next one Clause 22 transit of smuggled migrant prohibited.
Clause 22 the person shall not transmit or shall not transit a smuggle migrant through the territorial waters of Sierra Leone in a vessel exercising freedom of navigation in accordance with international law, and flying the flag for displaying the masks of registry of another country, vessel contravenes sub section one commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine of not less than Hundred Million Leones, that again too small.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: What about Two Hundred Fifty Million Leones?
THE CHAIRMAN: Two Hundred and Fifty Million Leones yes it is and ten years is okay not five years.

Page 20; a person shall not harbour another person who is not a citizen or permanent resident of Sierra Leone and who has not complied with the necessary requirement for legally remaining in Sierra Leone.
Now the Honourable Member from Kambia this put you on notice; a person who contravenes sub-section 1 commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a term of imprisonment of not less than three years or a fine of Five Million Leones to both fine and imprisonment is rather too small, so let me get suggestions please.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Let me come, there is logic in this, Honourable Member I will give you the Floor.
This is talking about harbouring, sometimes you are not aware of the crime and I am living along the Kambia axis then I have a friend, I am coming 100 over to you.

I come to your place, you are not aware of the crime but the child….you cannot say if you have accomplished or an accomplished [Interruption].

THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid it carries the element of men’s pea.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Men’s pea?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Yes, what you are saying is what I am supporting you.
Even if you are not aware but you have accomplished what you have said is kind of men’s pea you are still convicted for the crime.

So what I am saying because of the crime, the way it would appear to be in terms of judgement or you aiding and abating to be an accomplish, I think for me reasonably let just leave it three years and give Ten Million Leones is all that I can say.

For me that is my submission, I do not know for the others.

HON.
HON.

ISHMAEL SANDY: Mr Chairman, if we can look at the scenario earlier as proffered by our colleague, let say I am living in Bomaru and somebody in Masambola in Liberia sends a child to me for a couple of days to be with me until he comes and that happens to be a situation of trafficking unknowingly to me.

Like Mr Chairman was saying I see like more of the arts here than the men’s wear.

I have done the action but not really [Interruption]….

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, I think Honourable Member is real, let us read it again.

It says; a person shall not harbour another person who is not a citizen or permanent resident in Sierra Leone that also not a citizen and who has not complied, meaning if your friend is coming from Kenya you need to guide him to comply to the Immigration rules.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay let us amend that …….

HON.

ABDUL K KAMARA: The crime here is simple; you know the person is not a citizen [Interruption].
HON ISHMAEL SANDY: How do you know?

101 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, let us answer it, let us amend that provision, let it read out as follows; a person shall not intentionally harbour… HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, I do not think we need to add the word “intentionally.” THE CHAIRMAN: Yes… HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: This is an Immigration crime, the person that is coming in ought to go through the legal what the law describes but this is a non-citizen [Interruption].

HON.
HON.

ISHMAEL SANDY: Honourable AKK you will know but your Constituent in Balamuya will not know.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Okay, in other jurisdictions we have travelled ourselves.

When you go to other countries, like the one you were describing between Sierra Leone and Guinea, these are common Mano River countries we have common agreement that binds our free movement but we are also looking at issues in situations where people come from India, from Germany and they will settle in Sierra Leone.
The purpose of this is to eradicate people who are traffickers, who are part of the cartel of trafficking that will come in the guise of quietly sitting down in one corner and perpetrating the crime.

In fact for me even the price, the Five Million or the Ten Million you are saying to retain is small.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, Honourable Member let me give you one example; I am concerned about not penalizing innocent people, it is common throughout Sierra Leone to be kind to a stranger, is part of our cultural heritage to harbour strangers when they come as an act of kindness not so?
Now according to that provision, that act of kindness extended to a stranger who has entered the territory illegally is a crime but if you have qualified by saying that you harboured the person intentionally knowing that the person you are harbouring came in as an illegal Immigrant that is different.

That is why I introduced the word “intentionally” harbour as a safe guide, as a defence to somebody, an innocent person in the village who will harbour such a person?

102 HON.
102 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, how do you determine intention in this case?

How do you know that he did it intentionally?
Because I want to agree with the Honourable Member on the other side that for me we just leave it like that because for even the fine because we are talking about……if you are a politician and someone comes to your place from Guinea, you are living around Kambia, you are not aware of the crime but after sometime you realized that he/she has committed an offence, he or she has taken to Court, you can explain but that cannot preclude you from not getting charge for the crime committed.
THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah…but it will be in a defence to say…….

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: So that is the reason we should be moderate in terms of the penalty levied, we should be moderate.

Where is the consideration?


This one is very intentional, they said three years or Five Million Leones because of that proof of intentionally or non-intentionally because they do not want you to say oh I was not aware so there is no way you are going to prove that one but if you can go to Court and if the person that they are looking for and they find out that, that person was in your premise and that is a clear point for them to charge you but you can pay the fine because the fine is minimal here.
THE CHAIRMAN: So let us again take the case of the Honourable Member or his Constituents.

When he comes over from Guinea, are you going to say that innocent Constituent of his should ask the person did you come with your regular papers?

Did you come regularly into the country?

Nobody normally does that.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: They are not going to ask but if for example [Interruption] ….

THE CHAIRMAN: Well if you do not ask you are caught.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: If the Interpol is looking for you for a crime committed in Guinea and it happens that you are in Kambia, you are with the Honourable Member and if the Police go after you and find out that he or she is at the premise of the 103 Honourable Member but unknowing to him, that cannot preclude the Honourable Member not to be charged.

THE CHAIRMAN: Look, the crime here is harbouring a non-citizen, that sufficient, read it carefully.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: That is a crime all together.


THE CHAIRMAN: Well, that is what is caught by this particular provision.

Read it; a person shall not harbour another person who is not a citizen or permanent residence of Sierra Leone and who has not complied with the necessary requirement for legally remaining in Sierra Leone.
So the person comes from Guinea, he has entered the territory of Sierra Leone without the requisite papers and he comes to you as a stranger for all you know S.O [2] ‘somtem na u relative’ he says please I want to spend the night or two with you before I move on; you have committed a crime under that provision.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Not only even that provision, even under the residential laws [Interruption].
THE CHAIRMAN: Are you going to throw that person out simply because he has not come with the correct requisite papers?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: No, you are not going to throw him out, Mr Chairman in the disguise you are with me because you are not aware of the things you have stated, what you have explained so we do not need to levy more charges on this particular crime committed.

We should be considerate in levying charges here that is the reason the Drafters [Interruption]….
THE CHAIRMAN: As drafted, for mere fact that you have harboured that person is a crime.

But if you say I did not do so intentionally, it was not my intention to harbour a fugitive or somebody….

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Ignorance of the Law is no excuse.

THE CHAIRMAN: No… 104 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, how are you going to establish intention and non-intention?

How do you establish that one?


What we are saying, if you are found guilty of the law whether conscious or unconsciously you have done, you have committed an offence and you must be charged for it in the Court of Law [Interruption].

THE CHAIRMAN: But the defence will be based on the fact that I did not know.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: So the charges that is why we are given two penalties here, two years imprisonment or Five Million Leones [interruption].
THE CHAIRMAN: So the person should not be convicted at all that is what I am saying if you did not know.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: But there is too many of penalties levied at the discretion of the Judge Sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: Hmmm… HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: So you are saying we should have another Clause for that?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Fine, the action [Interruption]… HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: It is difficult to prove intention or no intention.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, I want to take you back to 15.

THE CHAIRMAN: The ordinary villager, it is part of our customs to accommodate strangers when they come to our villages, as matter of fact is part of our culture to do it.

No stranger goes to a village and sleeps outside; in fact they give them the best beds to sleep on.

If that stranger turns out to be somebody without the right papers you are caught.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, I want us to look at it from this other angle, here we are looking at just the resident, the person who harbours what about foreign nationals who come to Sierra Leone and stays in hotels with the wrong documentation and perpetrate human trafficking what happens to them?

What happens 105 to the hotel that host them because we have been to another countries where in the moment they lodge you they ask you for all relevant documentation to stay in that country.
THE CHAIRMAN: No, the moment you enter into the hotel what is the first question they ask you?

Where is your passport?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Thank you, the travel document does not give you permission to stay in that country.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

Your villager in Kambia does he ask the person for his passport?

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, what we are looking at here is, ordinarily if we look at the perspective of our day to day transaction with our brothers from Guinea and Liberia I agree with you that this Clause is not needed here.

For what I thought was the intention of the Drafters is to address a situation wherein a Chinese citizen in my home and he perpetrates a crime, I will harbour an American in my home and that person is a criminal.
I agree with you the word intentional should be added but also the fine should not be limited just to a lesser crime it could be not lesser than Three Million and above.

So a situation wherein the person deliberately harbours a non- citizen and knows the intention for which he is here then you can charge him Hundred Million or more.

But for the category you………..

THE CHAIRMAN: You are wasting a lot of time because the Leader of Government Business is consulting somebody else, he is not paying attention.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: He said we should remove it.

THE CHAIRMAN: He is saying we should add intentional there and you are quarrelling with that.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: For me in the Court of law I am not a Judge but to prove intention in the Court I want to see where it is stated [Interrupted].

THE CHAIRMAN: It a matter of fact it is not a question of law.

106 HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: A matter of fact you have harboured the person, when you commit an offence is an offence.

So I don’t know…..
So I don’t know…..

THE CHAIRMAN: I am just looking at it from the perspective of our village people.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: That is what we should not do.

There are so many laws covering this harbouring residential law there.

THE CHAIRMAN: Look when somebody goes [Hon.

Mathew Nyuma this is about human trafficking this one is not residential permit.

This is human trafficking we are talking about].

The way it is frame is too wild, this is what I am saying.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman do we look at this from the angle of conspiracy rather than the way it is because you can harbour somebody if you are not part of his activity then you have not yet committed the crime.

So I think I start to agree with you that we are looking at it from that angle.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: You are starting or you have agreed already?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: You know I will always support the Leader of Government Business.
THE CHAIRMAN: No wait a minute, when you cited the example of a visitor who goes to a hotel, do you know the defence of the hotel?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: No.

THE CHAIRMAN: Simple, because he will never give you room until you produce your passport and travelling documents and they will examine them to make sure that you have come into the country legally.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: I have a one month visa and the one month expires and I am still in the hotel for another three months.
THE CHAIRMAN: Well he is taking a risk.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: So who takes the risk?

THE CHAIRMAN: The hotelier.

107 HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: So the hotel should pay the price.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: The hotel cannot determine that, when you are about to exist you will meet the Immigration Officer they will deal with that one separately when you over stay.

But let us come back to the point; you are talking about intention but what about the fines levied?

THE CHAIRMAN: We will look at that.

HON.


MATHEW S. NYUMA: Okay, I will agree with you to have intentionally because of our costumes.

But really can you have somebody without asking that individual to…..anyway you have explained that...

THE CHAIRMAN: First of all is very insulting for you to begin to question people.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: You have dealt with that already so as a Politician you start questioning from your Constituent to seek a refuge at my house and I start questioning you because when that is established intentionally that you did it by harbouring somebody.

THE CHAIRMAN: No the truth is that, I did not intentionally harbour so I have not committed the offence.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: You have not, so that should be established by the Court, so how do we define it?
THE CHAIRMAN: Leave it, because if I did it intentionally, I pay the fine.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Okay so intentionally do you want us to have more fines or leave it like that?

THE CHAIRMAN: If it is done intentionally I would say increase the fine from 3 years to 5 years and from 5 years to 10 years.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Okay thank you that is the present position.
THE CHAIRMAN: So that is page 21, Members let me draw your attention to Clause 25, I don’t know how many of you appreciate the meaning as it is, the offences covered 108 by this Act will go straight to the High Court not before a Magistrate Court there is no PI so it is a serious offence we are dealing with.

I just want to draw your attention to that.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA.


Mr Chairman, you really need to explain how other cases like sexual offences can go to the Magistrate Court are they not serious crime?

THE CHAIRMAN: No there are certain portions that go straight to the High Court; they are not subjected to PI.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Except for the situation that goes to the High Court you will be assured of getting bail had not been for that it could have also…….

THE CHAIRMAN: No what 2 implies is that it is a serious offence.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Yes I agreed.

THE CHAIRMAN: Page 21?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, Clause 27, when we talk about all Parties to the proceedings agreed it has been admitted.

In a proceeding under this Act Electronic evidence is admissible if ….

THE CHAIRMAN: What do you mean?

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: You say all Parties.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes the two Parties before the Court.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: You think the offenders are going to accept to that?
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, if they don’t agree look at ‘B’ the Court is satisfied that it is in the interest of justice that it is admissible, so there is an alternative.

HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Alright let us proceed.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

What time is it?

Is getting to 5, are we going to sleep here tonight?

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: To protect trafficking is better we stay till 8 and complete our job.
109 THE CHAIRMAN: Clause 30[2] overseas assets of a person convicted of human trafficking shall be forfeited to Government.

HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: Why don’t we say a person conspired or a person …..

THE CHAIRMAN: Where are you?

HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: Where we have 2 attempts aiding and abating.

THE CHAIRMAN: An attempt or conspiracy to commit or aiding, abating, cancelling, commanding or procuring the commission of an offence….. HON.

DR MAHMOUD MARK KALOKOH: How do we determine attempt?
THE CHAIRMAN: An attempt?

It is an incoherent offence.

Let me tell you when the prosecution has not got sufficient evidence to convict you of the substantive offence they go for attempt okay, that is one way of making sure they rope you in, so don’t get rid of it please they need it.

HON.
HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Mr Chairman, when you look at this 28, an attempt or conspiracy to commit, I think it addresses the issue of harbouring that we are trying to address here because harbouring the person is not a crime, it is a crime when you conspired of the person to commit the crime so I think with this…..

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you know what conspiracy is?

In simple language it is defined as an agreement.

You have to agree with the person.

HON.


ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: So if I harbour you in my house but I do not agree to be part of your crime, then I should not be taken to Court.

I think with this we can now delete the one we were arguing on with that of intention or non-intention can be deleted with this.

THE CHAIRMAN: Don’t take us back.

You must have a motive.

Page 23?

Page 24?

Page 25?

Page 26?

Page 27?

Page 28?

110 HON.


DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: Page 26, divulging information prohibited, I want to look at the issue of access to information and here they say divulging information in the side notes; a person shall not where he knows or has a reasonable ground to believe that an investigation into human trafficking or migrant smuggling or persons is slightly to be compromised divulge that fact or other information to other person.
THE CHAIRMAN: Keep your mouth shut that is what it is saying.

If you know something when an investigation is on keep your mouth shut, don’t divulge information that will compromise the investigation.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Sexual offences Act, that even when you go to beg means you compromise the situation there it is 10 Million Leones.

THE CHAIRMAN: It is also equivalent to obstructing the Police in the due execution of their duty.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Exactly.

HON.


DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: I just cited divulging information, when you come to the next paragraph which is sub Clause 2 the fine there is 50 Million Leones.

THE CHAIRMAN: Obstruction of justice is a very serious offence.

HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: Well the fine is small.

THE CHAIRMAN: The fine is very small here.

HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: Yes, that is why I started my argument.

THE CHAIRMAN: You want it to 500 Million Leones?

HON.
HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: No, not 500 Million Leones maybe we can say 250 Million Leones.

In as much as we are setting the stage for deterrent.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: I think I want to be differing on this, not less than 50 Million Leones means it can be a Billion again it depends on the intention.
Mr Chairman, there are certain information you give out your intention is not necessary to 111 disturb the Police but not less than 50 Million Leones means it could be any amount above 50 Million Leones.

THE CHAIRMAN: Obstructing the course of justice is a very serious offence.

HON.

ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: That is why it is not limited to 50 Million Leones it is not less than.

THE CHAIRMAN: Who took us back?

Page 28 is the story about attempt, divulging?

I hope he is satisfied with the explanation.


I give everybody a clear chance and Honourable Kalokoh are you now satisfied with this divulging thing?

Thank you.

So Madam Minister Can you move please?

MRS BAINDU DASSAMA KAMARA: Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, I move that Parts 6, 7 and 8, Clauses 20-39 stand part of the Bill as amended.

[Question proposed Put and agreed to] Parts 6, 7 and 8, Clauses 20-39 form part of the Bill as amended.
THE CHAIRMAN: We shall now go back to Clause 2 and this time around I will allocate not more than five minutes.

Actually the problem we had was the composition and now let go through the composition as itemise: The Attorney General and the Minister of Justice or Representative, The Minister of Finance or Representative not below the rank of a Director, Minister of Labour or Representative, Minister of Gender and Children’s Affairs or Representative.

HON.
HON.

MATHEW S. NYUMA: Mr Chairman, what you have read is the same not below the rank of a Director.

THE CHAIRMAN: That applies to everybody else for the Ministries.

HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: Mr Chairman, before we use the word Minister let us use the word Ministry representative from such and such Ministry.

THE CHAIRMAN: No, we want it at Minister Level.

HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: At Minister level, why?


112 THE CHAIRMAN: Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister of Information, Minister of Health and Sanitation and Minister of Internal Affairs, National Security Coordinator.

Immigration we said they should go out but what do you people think?

Let them stay?

NAcSA I think they should go out.


Now if we have kept Immigration and the Minister of Internal Affairs I don’t think we need to keep the two AIGs they could come as co-opted alright so they go, okay we will add that in the end.

Human Right Commission what did we say?

FIU, IGP comes next the Executive Director will come as Secretary.

I have just been advised that the total number is fifteen [15] and that is fine plus the Chair.

Next one, I think that is the only one that detained us.
The quorum do we go for seven?

Yes because the total number is fifteen.

For the qualification of Executive Director did we say Masters in Social Sciences plus five years’ experience?

And it should be from an accredited University.

I think those are the only Clause that was pinned so with that let us resume.

[The House resumes from the Committee Stage] THE SPEAKER: Yes Madam Minister would you please report.

THIRD READING MRS BAINDU DASSAMA KAMARA: Thank you very much.
Before I report on the Bill I would like to take this opportunity to say a very big thank you to this Honourable House and I am very delighted that this Honourable House has spent time to debate this very important Bill and this shows commitments to strengthen the legal frame work within which to combat human trafficking and smuggling of migrants.

Mr Speaker, it is of strategic importance that the Anti-Human Trafficking and Migrant Smuggling Bill of 2022 be passed into law.
An enactment of this it greatly contributes towards deduction of the incident of trafficking of persons, particularly our women and children for slave labour and sexual exploitation.

Then by ensuring that the custodian sentences for trafficking of related offences and compensation provision in the said Bill is sufficient the expectation is for it to serve as deterrent to trafficking and smuggling of migrants as well as the population.

Once more thank you very much.


113 Now let me report on the Bill, Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, I report that The Bill entitled the Anti-Human Trafficking and Migrant Smuggling Act 2022, having gone through the Committee of the whole House with amendments and I now move that the Bill be read the Third Time and passed into Law.
[Question proposed Put and agreed to] The Bill entitled the Anti-Human Trafficking and Migrant Smuggling Act 2022 been an Act to provide for the continuing existence for the National Task Force on human trafficking to provide for the continuing existence for the secretariat to assist the Task Force to provide for the prosecution of the offences of human trafficking, to provide for the prosecution of the offences of migrant smuggling, to provide for the economic alternatives to human trafficking or smuggling of persons and to provide for other related matters has been read the Third Time and passed into Law.
THE SPEAKER: Thank you.

Madam Minister you are excuse.

HON.

ZAINAB CATHRINE TARAWALLY: I stand on S.O.

23.

It concerns one of us an Honourable Member’s husband has been seriously brutalized by the Sierra Leone Police and he is with the Police at Benghazi so the Member of Parliament of Constituency 110 wants to stand on that particular S.O.

The newly elected Member of Parliament of Kailahun husband suffered that particular problem.

THE SPEAKER: Very well.

HON.


KADIJATU DAVIES: Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, Honourable Kadijatu Davies is my name and I am standing on S.O 23.
It bothers the visitation of His Excellency the President at Mile 13 within my Constituency the property owners in that community are claiming that they have authentic document for their land in that community and they are asking me to advocate on their behalf, that they will like to have the attention of the line Ministries [Ministry of Lands, Environment and Water Resources] they are calling for their attention to engage the property owners at Mile 13 in other for them to verify the authentic Land Owners.
Also they want to draw the attention to the indiscriminate use of riot control missiles against innocent civilians as 114 my colleague Member of Parliament just mentioned.

One of our colleague’s brother by the name of Tejan Sheriff held at the Benghazi Hospital conferment and I visited him yesterday he is in serious pain complaining that his left shoulder is being dislocated.

So I called the Director of OSD but he also was claiming that the affairs are in the hands of the land grabbing centre.
I want colleague Members and also Committees on Lands, Environment and Water Resources to please form a team to do some probing in regards of this matter.

And also again another issue in my own community where I stay bothers on armed robbery broad day light with bodily damaged so I want this House to continue pleading for security for us the Members of Parliament, we are no longer safe I brought the attention of the IG he gave the order but up till now as I speak it has not been effected.

Thank you.

HON.
Thank you.

HON.

ROSALINE HAWA SAFFA: This situation is very serious because it was a collective move they made both the Police and the Military but only my brother was arrested and his family we went there we pleaded with the Police to release him but up till now they have not yet released him.

We went with the Legislative Committee Director to plead on his behalf but nothing happens.

HON.

BASHIRU SILIKIE: I advised … HON.


ABDUL KARIM KAMARA: Let me use this opportunity one minute to draw your attention to the fact that our Parliament is still ineffective.

This issue around Mile 13 has been raised by the Leader of the Opposition and Honourable Kanja and you ruled that the Committees responsible to investigate that matter.
Mr Speaker, it is two weeks now and nothing has been done this is over and again you put time lines, the committees on operation as if they are undermining your authority but it is sad.

HON.

DR MARK MAHMOUD KALOKOH: Mr Speaker, as a quick gap measure may I humbly request you to make a call to the IG as a representation of the brother of our colleague to be released for medical treatment.

Staying at Benghazi is very serious Mr Speaker.

Thank you.
Thank you.

115 THE SPEAKER: Okay, I take note of the representations made and we will continue to progress on these issues to see what can be done in my Chambers.

So I would like to invite the two Honourable Members in my Chambers after we rise to see what can be achieved.

Do telephone calls to bring this matter to satisfactory solution.

MR SPEAKER ADJOURNED THE HOUSE TO THURSDAY 28TH APRIL, 2022 AT 10:00 THE HOUSE ROSE AT 5:15 PM 116