Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697743922568.pdf (Guyana)
1,381 Members Present LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Unofficial Notices 1,382 LEGISUUIVE COUNCIL Demerara).

The Hon.

Dr. C. Jagan (Czntral � ,, WEDNESDAY, 25TH AUGUST, 1948 The Hon.

C. A. McDoom (Nominated}.

The Hon.

W. 0.

R. Kendall (New Amsterdam).

.. , The Council met at �xcellency Woolley, dent, in the Chair.

the Governor, KC.M.G., O.B.E., 2 p.m., His Sir Charles M.C., Presi- Berbke}.

South}.

The Hon.

A. T. A,ters (Western The Hon.

John Carter (Georgetown PRESENT inated).

The Hon.


E. M. Gonsalve� (Nom­ The President, His Excellency the Governor, WOOLLEY, KC.M.G., O.B.E., M.C.

Sir CHARLES CAMPBELL The Clerk read prayers.

The Hon.

thz Colonial Secretary, Mr. W. · L. Heape, C.M.G.

The M:inutes of the meeting of the Council held on Friday, the 13th of August, 1948, as printed and circulated, were taken as read and confirmed.

The Hon.

the Attorney General, Mr. F. W. Holder, K.C.

PAPER LAID The Hon.

the Colonial Treasurer, Mr.


The COLONIAL SECRETARY, laid E. F. McDavid, C.M.G., C.B.E.

on the table.

The Hon.

C. V. Wight, O.B.E., (Western Essequibo).

The Post Office Savings Bank No.

23 No.

2) Regulations.

(Amendment of 1948.

The Hon.

Dr. J.

B. Singh, O.B.E.

(Demerar'a-Esseq uibo).

The Hon.

Dr. J.

A. Nicholson (George­ town North}.

UNOFFICIAL NOTICES RICE INDUSTRY ENQUIRY The Hon.

T. Lze (Essequibo River).

Mr. DEBIDIN gave notice of the following motions :- The Hon.
W. 'J.· Raatgever (Nomi­ nated).

j The Hon.

V. Roth (Nominated).

1 f : The Hon.

T. T. Thompson (Nomi­ ' nated).

The Hon.

Capt.

J. P. Coghlan (Dem­ erara River).

(a)WHEREAS the Rice Industry is.

of the one of the major industries, Colony and a large percentage the population production dependent their livelihood.
and are comoletely on the industry for of in rice is ·engaged AND WHEREAS there is vital production need for increased rice and for greater encourage­ ment to peasant rice farmers; of The Hon.

D. P. Debidin (Eastern Demerara).

The · Hon.

Dr. G. M. Gonsalves r,Eastern Berbice).

AND WHEREAS from present day figures the cost of production is.

much higher than the price obtained by producers grades except Super which grade is very rarely obtainable.

in all 1,383 Unofficial 25 AUGUST, 1948 ..

Notices.
Notices.

1,384 AND WHEREAS producers cost of coupled with the mounting living would operate as a serious discouragement to rice producers .

or to in the Colony to continue take up rice farming in the future and the industry thereby; would suffer (e)To enquire into the cost of milling padi an'd the question reasonable and price or fee for milling; of fixing a (f)Generally to recommend on any to the other matters pertaining Rice Industry.
AND WHEREAS Producers during war of the Rice Indus­ have been subjected time to control try by Defence Regulations today the entire industry erned by the Rice Marketing Board Ordinance the place of the Defence Regu­ and all prices are con­ ulations trolled a·nd fixed under this Ordinance; which has taken and is gov­ SECURITY OF TENURE FOR SUGAR TENANCY.
ESTATE LABOUREllS' • (b)WHEREAS a very large percent­ age of our population are resident -in the Col­ upon sugar Qlantations ony and supply labour for cane su_gar production and cultivation, other subsidiary work on sugar estates; AND WHEREAS there is grave dissatisfaction throughout the Colony over not only the price paid to producers but also the working of the Rice Marketing in the very high cost Board chiefly of the administration Board and the extremely low price rice fo!· our exported obtained which is approximately one­ third of the World Market price ; AND WHEREAS the majority these labourers immigrants to the sugar estates under a con­ dition that "a suitable shall be assigned and family, and s,hall by the employer" if any, free of rent be kept in good repair dwelling to the emigrant are descendants who came inder;itured of the of of ; AND WHEREAS there is urgent need for a close public enauiry to be taken throughout into the whole question of production view to their satisfactory adjust­ ments; and prices.
with a the Colony of cost Be IT RESOLVED that this respectfully Council ernment to appoint a committee of five with the Economic as Chairman, Adviser request Gov­ - (a)To examine and enquire into the as a whole wtih a Rice Industry the cost of view of determinin_g production mendations adjustment of prices to producers so as to ensure a reasonable profit margin for each grade of rice; and making recom­ to Government for the (b} To examine and recommend on the prices for which rice may be sold for local consumption and for export trade; (c)To examine and enquire into the working of the Rice Marketing Board and the Rice Producers' Association; AND WHEREAS for generations each sugar estate had the some­ benefit of the la­ what exclusive by bour of the resident virtue of such residence their being provided dwellings; population - i.e.
by with free regarding AND WHEREAS the Sugar Estate the tenancy Employers, on the estate as a of labourers Tenancy at Will unger which any period e.g.

<!
<!

day's notice to quit can be given, have been evictinl'( resident estate; labourers from off the AND WHEREAS wilen once evicted bourer cannot find employment any other sugar plantation in the Colony; from a su_gar estate a la­ on AND WHEREAS such insecurity of ten;,ire could give rise to a fotm labour"; of "forced AND WHEREAS security ure has been provided of rice lands by legislation instituted O:·c,jnance No.
10 of 1945 : of ten­ for tenants hv Guvernrnent under ., BE IT RESOLVED that this Hon­ ourable Council respecfully re­ of the Col­ quest the Government ony to introduce legislation to secure:- (d)To examine and enquire into the working of the Mahaicony-Abary Rice Expansion Sch::!me and 1:ecommrnend thereon; I 1,385 Motion - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Adult Suff?'age.

to A Bill intituled "An Ordinance 1,386 ,, 1.That no notice to quit be given be made of any to or evictions suJ?
:ar estate labourer of any dwelling unless.

- in respect on a sugar estate amend the Legal Practitioners with respect Ordinance of Clerkship".

- The Attorney­ General.

to Articles and his (a)All of the tenant labourer family have failed andlor refused just cause to work on the without sugar estate for a continuous period of not less than one year; ► UNIVERSAL ADULT SUFFRAGE The Council resumed consideration of the following motion by Mr. LEE.
(b)One calendar month's notice be given; and (c)Such notice is endorsed Commissioner District trict in which the sugar estate is on being satisfied that situated grounds to there are sufficient such notice bein_g _given.
justify of the Dis­ by the "WHEREAS certain members of the recom­ of univer­ Commission 1941 Franchise mended that the introduction sal adult suffra,ge for a period of five years, while other adult members thought that universal suffrage should have been introduced in 1944; should be postponed of rice lands and farms on sugar estates 2.That all tenancies provision shall be deemed to be tenancies from year to yea,, and any notice shall be to quit in respect Commis­ endorsed to be sioner as.
being justified comP.ensa­ given, and reasonable tion for crops and[or imorove­ ments be paid in respect vision farms.

thereof by the District of pro­ has already adult AND WHEREAS universal 1n of suffrage the other two first class colonies Jamaica and Trinidad Indies; in the West been introduced BE IT RESOLVED that the Secre­ tary of State for the Colonies.
respectfully introduction Legislative ance, 1945, thereby giving the right to every male and female over the age of to be in the Colony, 21 years, resident registered to approve of the requested of an amendment to the Council (Elections) Ordin­ as a voter."

be ORDER OF THE DAY BILLS - F'IRST READING.


The following Bills were read the first time and notice given of their second reading: A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to amend the Summary Jurisdiction (Magistrates) spect to Maintenance Ordinance with re­ Orders."

A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to amend the Crown Lands Resump­ tion Ordinance which may be resumed bv the Crown".
with respect to lands "An Ordinance A Bill intituled to Bank amend the Post Office Savings to the 1947, with respect Ordinance, on date of calculation deposits."

of interest � ( A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to extend the powers of Co-operative Credit Banks for the purpose of the increase of food production".

A Bill intituled "An Ordinance ther to amend the Licensed ises Ordinance.

to the opening and closing premises licensed connected therewith."
hours of 1944, with respect and for purposes fur­ Prem­ The PRESIDENT: When the Council on the 13th August, the hon.

adjourned Member for Essequibo to the debate on the motion standing his name.

River was replying in the hon.

Mr. LEE: I understand Member for Demerara River would like to make some explanation.

The PRESIDENT: What is the point?

Capt.

COGHLAN: I crave your Adult It is on Universal There have been two amend­ test in any ,and the second was that the What with is to know if the indulgence.
Suffrage.

ments on the motion.

The first was that t'.1ere should be a literacy language literacy we are concerned voter kno,.

:vs for whom he is voting.

I have worked out a formula for approval by the Council.

know foe Home Government Adult Suffrage.- of Universal it.

I is in favour test should be in English.

You may consider The PRESIDENT: I do not think the hon.

Member is entitled to make that 1,387 Motion 25 AUGUST, 1948.

Adult Suffrage.
Adult Suffrage.

1,388 statement, when he has got the .statement of H.M. Government Ccuncil.

That is the present the hon.

Member cannot go beyond that.

which I read to the and position, ing those people to vote who were not in a way compelled to receive tion which the Govermnent upon and the majority working class of this Colony.

of whom are of the that educa­ had insisted Capt.

COGHLAN: I am not going beyond that.


The w:wle question person knov;s have heard from many speakers is if the for whom he is voting.

We.

- The PRESIDENT: What is the hon.

Member's point?

Capt.

COGHLAN: The point is to a way so that who will still be able to know how we can cut may be illiterate exercise the franchise.

The PRESIDENT: I am afraid the before us or an explanation If he has to raise in regard to the hon.

Member is not in order.

The debate has already been completed.


any question amendments of them, I would give him that oppor­ tunity before I put them to the vote.

If he wants to be clear as to where he stands when votin_g, him as soon as the Mover has replied.

I would do that for Capt.

COGHLAN: Thank you!

Mr. LEE: Your Excellency, on the to the Com­ T;,at was to occasion, Circular.

I was replying that was adminis­ of illiteracy under If hon.

Members or this Government.

the question previous amendment moved by the hon.


Member North and trying to point for Georgetown out to you and this Council that accord­ ing to the Report of the Franchise in mission of 1941, which was published 1944, there was an obligation on this Gov­ something ernment to rectify not properly done by a previous tration rectify the Swettenham have read the Report, have, they would certainly proves conclusively tration suspending sory primary education.

my humble opinion.

submit.


This Council, being cognisant vancement giving the masses the privilege of electing public body, I respectfully be doing anyfoing in that year made a mistake in of compul­ the enforcement and right to every that is wrong in allow- of the fact that the ad­ that the Adminis­ which I hcpe they of political knowing that and submit, will not It was wrong in see that it their representatives views is towards which I respectfully I further desire to say, what fear can be themselves.
Let Let right with us, and would be affected who work equally if they do anything they are human beings like ◄ is in the majority and to elect of their own class for the there be amongst us because one section of the community desires Council?

If they come here Legislative what would happen?

Let us assume for the sake of argument that they come here in the majority; or wrong the majority by it and that would us not have any such fear when it comes to be good of the country.
The popula­ ticn of this country is cosmopolitan.

us realize ourselves net because--they are illiterate that they cannot read and write they should be debarred I have previously been granted •tration wio is the owner of property can vote because he has an interest lar village.

He is given that right by law.


Everyone Duties are imposed and contributes revenue of foe Colony, and the workers of the in the welfare are equally in the welfare of their par­ community, as anyone who has ticular industry, invested in the Colony.

Why then s'.1ould we sa:v now that we cannot give them the right and privilege Vl"hen from that privilege.

As 3aid, that privilege them in the minor adminis­ areas, where any person to whatever to the of votin_g Council'!
it comes to this Legislative in the particu­ interested of us is liable of village in the sense capital has e of voting, Let us assume for the sake of argu­ ment that they are given the right and privileg they will not exercise that right until the next General Election unless there is · a by-election.
In the interim this Council can vote money to start a literacy campaign so that they will not have only that knowledge Teading The Commission required only enquire into the Franchise a simple sentence to be read in the langnage under which they feel they should be given the right and privileg e to vote.

Your Efcellency, I feel that if this Council privilege them that right and a blot on it would be casting a simple sentence that was set up to siould deny of required.
that is 1,389 Motion LEGISLATIVE for the benefit of this those Members who stand for political advancement Colony.

I appeal to Your Excellency Governor of this Colony to see whether it is not possible to convince it is in the interest privilege the motion that of the Colony that that in some form or fashion those against be granted.

as •• aims at the progress as laid down, printed and of the of COUNCIL.

Adult Suffrage.
Adult Suffrage.

1,390 in order to bring about a forward together mo·vement for the progress of this Colony, and many Members know that the policy of the Party_, published, Colony and is not to the detriment financial.

or persons who desire to come into the Colony and invest capital.

There was never any such idea, and I desire it to be known that the the Trade Unions.

Labour Party and support any capital coming into this Colony for the development Jf this Colony.
or progress interests will On the other hand, let us assume for and at all times.

This life of this the sake of argument that if that privi­ lege is granted this Council would be flooded with the votes of that particular class and race.

What would happen?

I do not ask that they be given power to do that is not of benefit to this Col­ an:vthing ony.
Under Crown Colony Government the last word is with Your Excellency your advisers Council is only five years, but Your it at has the right to proTOgue Excellency any time should you find its policy is not in keeping with Imperial policy.

I am positive person in this Colony would at any time stand up against Your Excellency exercising that right in the interest.
Members who will say There are Elected but it is not in the interest of the Colony, I feel sure that at no time whatever will they let down their own people.

that no right-thinking of the Colony.

When you talk of financial status, Does interest status as any.
that at any time, or illiter­ will throw out anything nature or an investment or to belittle the efforts of people coming into this they have as much financial cf the others, save Booker Bros., & Co., Ltd., who have a lot of McConnell invested in the Colony.

But no Member of this Council will in any way try to destroy any financial Colony fo;i: the progress of the Colony.

Your Excellency believe whether the voters are literate ate, this Council of a financial where the masses will be benefited investment?
tries, new capital brought into the Colony.

Would the masses permit any of here and the Elected Members to stand destroy tries?

I do not feel that hon.

Members of this Council have considered that question Why is there the fear of these people taking advantage majority in a district'.

the British Guiana Labour Party we found out that all races must be united by that There will be new indus­ the advancement When we started of those indus­ in detail.
of their I do not see why we should be fear­ Berbice they desired.

who are Indians in that division their right to elect There is no doubt who will give them the hon.

Member for that division ful when there is no need for fear at all.

As the hon.

Member for Eastern other can­ said, he contested with three didates for his seat and he headed the poll.

That showed that the people are exercising the candidate the best service.

that the hon.

Member won by a majority The Indians which cannot be disputed.
but were in the majority they felt that the hon.

Member, although race, would give them the of a different service Then we come to the Demerara River division.

friend, fought Indian and African and, candtdates intelli the people's as he has said himself, ­ gence directed of the them to the election person who they felt would give them service.

In that division peopled sugar estates if by Indians and Africans.'
Therefore these people are given the privilege of adult suffrage would they not universal act in the same way ?

As I understood, there were supporters on public platforms people in Hindi in support are ture.

I do not think my hon.

friends really thinking vancement oppose this motion.

of the progress of this Colony when they there are seven villages ·of his who stood and spoke to the of his candida­ and several My good and ad­ When we come to the point made by Mr. Farnum, the hon.
Nominated Member, that those Guianese who went to the War were able to sign their names when drawing their pay while many other servicemen area were unable to do so, I want to point out that people have some of those same illiterate from the Caribbean j 1 i 1,391 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948.

Adult Suffrage.
Adult Suffrage.

1,392 We Are through the relating in matters of Georgetown of their respective of Members of the Legislative been granted the right to vote for the election Council in their Colonies introduction of adult suffrage.

Are we to say that those people cannot judge to the political rightly Colonies?

progress we the only right thinkers in the political arena in British Guiana.
With the ex­ ception and New Amster­ dam, Mr. Jacob, a former Member of this Council, to the various and I travelled parts of the Colony and held meetings to this and othe1· matters.

relating sent to this Government copies of reso­ lutions passed at those meetings and they showed that in every instance were asking Government for this right of universal I feel that if adult suffrage.
every Elected Member goes to his con­ in a and puts this question stituency proper way to the voters he would be given a mandate to vote in favour of this motion.

I feel that hon.

Members would be making one of the greatest if they vote according Judgment and without consulting , hecause I have respective visited and I know all the constituencies to give their that the voters are willing to vote for adult mandates representatives suffrage.
If Elected Members care to vote against ing their constituencies, exercising and their of the own judgment - not the judgment people in the constituencies.

they would be their own consciences the motion without consult­ constituencies mistakes to their own the people their and some of them are and some of the absentee enjoys its own freedom.

Those estates were developed now abandoned, proprietors are among the people who have taken shares in local companies.
The choice of the immigrants their country they are granted in their own vernacular to return to has been take_n away and the right to vote here or language.

The PRESIDENT: Will the hon.

Member please address the Chair?

Mr. ,LEE: Yes, Sir.

I am saying that the right ycu gave to those immigrants to vote in their own language or Hindi - and now you want to tell them that whether they are East Indians, Chinese, pass a literacy want to exercise or else, they must test in English if they the right to vote.
Portuguese - Sanscrit The COLONIAL SECRETARY: To a point of order!

I do not think Govern­ ment wants that at all.

Mr. LEE: I am talking about the amendment; that is what it suggests.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: I think it should be made quite clear that that is not the wish of Government.
As regards the amendment urging of that amendment feel test in that there should be a literacy English only, I regret very much that it into this should have been introduced Council because it cuts strikingly - and I choose that word to show the kind and class of people we have in this Colony.

Do supporters that it is in the best interest cerned?
The masses if left to themselves would not be able to develop the Colony; and it wBuld they have not got capital have to ccme from other parts of the world to do so.

Capitalists, have already enjoyed the fruits from the labour of the masses.
The Imperial Government in order to develop estates owned by absentee pro- brought slaves to this Colony - prietors, from a country which now immigrants hGwever, of all con­ test should only be I am trying to point out that step and an insult to Mr. LEE: It is not the wish of Gov­ ernment but it is the wish of a Member here that the literacy in English.

is a retrograde those of us who are the representatives of the people who have given their lives for this Colony.
I know that the sugges­ tion cannot be expunged from the records but it should not be introduced am sorry it has been put forward and I would like hon.

Members of this Cuuncil to realise we represent uniess we realise able to make any forward step for the benefit of the Colony as a whole.

I am sure the majority Council will not vote at any time in favour of such an amendment.

and that we will not be we are one community, of the Members of this views or interests that whatever here.
I I will now deal with the last point whn::h I regard as the hardest hurdle for me to go over, but I feel I shall be able to do so convincingly.

The Royal Com- ., 1,393 Motion - LEGISLATIVE CoUNCil,, Adult Suffrage.

1,394 ML LEE: Yes; I ha,:e read the para­ graph and it says "some of our mem­ be1·s .... " It does not say how many, but I think it indicates clearly and to this Council that the views ex­ pressed therein were those of the majority.
to Government The PRESIDENT: I do not agree the wording of the Commission's with the hon.

Member; he seems to be straining Report.

He should state all the facts otherwise must not put on a construction which is not warranted by the actual wording.

he would be misleading.

He it votes were with reports, one of by Mr. Edun and the Mr. LEE: If there was any dissent­ to that paragraph ing vote with respect would have been shown in the Report.
The only dissenting respect to the minority whic:1 was written other by Mr. Jacob, Mr. Gajraj, and myself.

What I am saying is that the Commission and sections into this question contained adult suffrage, in that paragraph there is another general which represented of the community all classes went fully the views universal and the 5 years mentioned in par.

53 as regards will have expired and expressed election.
Dr. Singh before That Com­ to various that a local to go into this That was done be appointed of the franchise.

all classes cf them being then Members mission came to this Colopy and recom­ mended to this Government Commission question and the members of the Commission represented of the ccmmunity, the majority of the Legislative Council.
mission took time and went into the parts of the details, travelling Colony and taking evidence from many after having been given the witnesses, widest possible terms of reference.

The its work in 1941 and Commission reported how in 1944, so one can realise many difficulties travelling on.
I was a member of that Commission, and we went right through to Berbice, Essequibo We took evidence ing out what vvas in the minds of the people as regards this particular and you will see, Sir, that there: are sev­ in the Report dealing eral paragraphs this particular aspect of the question adult suffrage.

In par.

53, the Report states:- - Bartica and ofaer places.
with the object of find­ it had to surmount in districts to the various question started and so with to - adult suffra11:e should be post­ "5:l. Some of our members are of the opinion that the introduction of universal poned for a period of five years.

while others consider of the franchise is reached amined before a final decision on so important and then only after a ne,iV Census - last under­ taken in 1931 - has been taken."
that the entire question should again be ex­ a question, Now, Sir, the question of the census of illiteracy showed obtained the argument that these people apnreciably in order to be granted the right to exerci£e one newspaper was also gone into fully by the Commis­ sion and the evidence that there were no definite figures to prove the number cf illiterates in each of the Colony.
Some of us were district waiting to see whether we could have found out if the percentage had dc::reased strengthen sho1!ld the vote.

Up to 1·ecently --the Daily Chronicle illiterates population we can with confidence people the right of universal suffrage.

I do not know whether Your Exc�llency or any other Council feels that this matter should to another Committee, questions and the memoranda sent by various would also be persons there.

If Your Excellency and the hon.


Members of thi;; Council look at the records and I feel that give to thesf adult are in the minority of the Colony, would have to be considered to the Commission that - disclosed Member of this but the same among the go that this in 1944, let us say should not come into operation Now, Sir, having realised Ccmmission reported that the 5 years would have taken us on to 1949; I am asking that adult su!Trage until this Council is dissolved, would be in 1953.
Therefore, Council mendation after the Franchise Commission ported that it would come into operation.

The Commission Excellency's predecessor bers were:- was appointed and the mem­ it would be a matter of 9 years and that if this to accept this recom­ is prepared by Your has re­ The PRESIDENT: You are not quotrng the entire Commission but the views of some of be members.

You should make that point clear.

it would be seen that the majority I 1,395 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948.

Adult Suffrage.
Adult Suffrage.

1,396 were in favour of granting to the people.

adult suffrage The PRESIDENT: I am sorry to the hon.

Member, but he must interrupt about a matter not draw such conclusions on wnich there was considerable ence of opinion.

There is one thing which is undoubtedly the question was considered; cannot say that the majority favour of it.

I do not want the public to get the wrong impression.

correct of universal and that is, adult suffrage but the hon.
Member were in differ­ was granted at a later adult suffrage.

date symbols were used with equal s'uccess at the general elections which took place some months ago.

Universal adult suffrage has also been granted to and I have no the people of Trinidad doubt that it worked successfully there.
Here we have two Colonies bean area - Jamaica and Trinidad - in which it has been proved that voting can be clone successfully not see why we cannot do likewise British to be passed in this Colony we often find out how similar in Jamaica and Trinidad and sometimes copy from what they have done, taking them as examples.

by symbols and I de, in Guiana.

When there ir.


legislation legislation in the Carib­ operates <, I Mr. LEE: I was a member of the and I can say definitely that Commission the memoranda sent in by the Trade Unions which represent the workers were in favour of universal adult suffrage.

the majority of The PRESIDENT: That is a different The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: not agree with the hon.

Member when he speaks about copying laws.

I do in matter.
I do in matter.

Mr. LEE: Another question from her husband should as income in order to qualify that was of the right of gone into was the question a wife to vote.

It was suggested that a ·wife's allowance be regarded her as a voter.

but that was struck out.


I mention that to show that the Commis­ sicn went so far as to enquire into the income of husbands in an endeavour give wives mission also considered giving a wife the right to be a Member of this Council provided she earned an income equivalent to at least half of that of her husband.

All these details wen� and, I think, the time has fully considered arrived when universal should be granted to the people.

the right to vote.
the right to vote.

The Com­ of the question adult suffrage in every country new legislation, I often blame candidates Mr. ,LEE: If we do not copy we often as examples and it seems take Jamaica and Trinidad introducing to me we can also take them as examples where voting by· symbols has proved a success.

No one can deny that there are spoilt votes at elections in the world, even in those in which there is 'no illiteracy.
in this Colony for spoilt votes, however, because I feel that if they instruct voters bow to vote during the course of their campaign election a great number of spoilt at the last general elections.

remarks I feel that if hon.

Members con­ sider all the circumstances would not fail to grant to these people the right and privilege representatives of electing their there would not be such in this Council.
votes as we had they carefully With these to The last question deals with the as an Colonies Government granted universal in order to find out whether manner in which voting should be carried on.

During the last 10 or 15 years.

the Imperial adult suffrage to certain experiment people who are illiterate ing to their consciences persons.

the majority erate and it was proved conclusively by a system of symbols the people can identify the candidates desire to vote and vote in secrecy.
in Jamaica where universal Similarly, It was tried in Ceylon where of the population can vote accord­ and for the right for whom they were illit­ that The PRESIDENT: I shall now put as in the the words of the question original motion.

Council divided and voted as follows: For: Messrs. Carter, McJ?oom, Debidin, lan, and Dr. Singh-7.

and Lee, Dr. Jagan, Capt.

Cogh­ Against: Messrs. Gonsalves, Peters, Thompson, Kendall, Dr .. Gonsalves, Wight-9.
Rctth, and Raatgever, Dr. Nicholson and Mr. • ' 1,397 Adult Suffrage LEGISLATIVE Did not vote: The Colonial urer, the Attorney-General and the Secretary-3.

Colonial Treas­ Original motion lest.

The PRESIDENT: I will new put the I in the whether.

"to censider like the Council they are, it seems to me, to an ad hoc and if amendments and would to be quite clear in voting on these .

The first is by the hon.


amendments Member for Berbice River to the effect t:rnt the motion be referred Ccmmittee so in what form, and when, universal adult suffrage should be introduced."

think that is quite clear: Hon Members will find a copy of that amendment minutes.

As regards the two other amendments practically difference the one moved by the Second Nominated Member-it is stated that the literacy test should be in English only, whereas the one moved by the hon.
Member for Georgetown as it is at present.

test should rc,'l1ain hope that it is quite clear to hon.

Members $0 that wh1>n 1hey vote they would under­ stand what the implications are.

I will now put the amendment moved by the hon.

Member for Berbice River.

the same.

There is very little except that in one of them­ North states that the literacy I Amendment put, the Council dividing and voting as follows :- For : Messrs. Peters, McDoom, Kendall, Roth, Lee, Wight, Dcbidin, Dr. Dr. Singh and Capt.
Jagan, Dr. Gonsalves, Coghlan.-!

1.

Ag a i n s t : Messrs. Gonsalves Ro1atgever, and Dr. Nicholson Thompson, -4.

Did not vote : Mr. Carter, the Colonial and the Colonial Treasurer, Secretary-4.

the Attorney-General to express any considered important 1,398 any opinion on it now.

It is Council.

on the matter at the mcment.

I COUNCIL.

Elected in no position opinion regard th() question as one of vital importance, and I do hope the hon.
Member will not try to rush me into expressing a matter which I propose to study very carefully, and I do suggest to the hon.

Member t 1at being so vitally it should not be rushed.

There is not that great urgency about it.

We are proposing an important every hon.

Member of this anxious as the step we take should be Council that that one.

I can assure t:1e Council the right I will not only give the matter most careful but I shall report the views of hon.
Members to H.M. Government, and that is, I think, what we all want.

myself thought and consideration step forward, and I am as Mr. LEE: Thank you, Sir.

- to take a great step forward, WHOLLY ELECTED COUNCIL.

The next item was a motion by Mr. LEE as follows : recom­ '·WHEREAS certain members of Commission the 14 Electoral the l 941 Franchise mend Ed '·that should be redistributed Elected Members", as detailed page 24 of the Report of the British Guiana Franchise Commission, Legislative Council Paper No.
10 of 1944; to allow of 24 on Districts 1941.

AND WHEREAS fae time has for the Constitution arrived of British Guiana to be changed so as to provide for a wholly elected Council hased on universal the attainment ment in internal years; Legislative adult suffrage and affairs within five r,f complete self-govern­ BE IT RESOLVED that His Excel­ to consider lency the Governor be respectfully requested of a representative sider ihe whole question before June, 1948."
the appointment to con­ Commission and to report Amendment carried.

Mr. LEE : May I enquire from you, Sir, when the Committee will be appointed?

The PRESIDENT: I would ask the time.

I hon.

Member to give me a little think in my opening remarks I said that the matter, in my opinion, study and thought, called for close and I am certainly Mr .

.LEE : Before I formally move in my name to amend the resolution the second motion standing I ask permission by substituting the word "June" in the last line.
This Council is comprised Members, 7 Nominated Members, 3 Official Members, with the Governor as the word "December" of 14 Elected for a 1,399 Mo�ion - 25 AUGUST, 1948.

Wholly Elected Council.

1,400 of He as In dealing majority.

this Council w .. in the various to represent as personal to them.

is not present.

which gave the Government In 1928 there was a change of the with the motion it for me to make certain The Legislative consisted 10 Official President.
will be necessary references to the Nominated Members well as, perhaps, the Official Members, but I desire that those Members should not regard such references I regret that the hon.

Member for Berbice River (Mr. Ferreira) has.

been chosen at the meeting of the Empire Parlia­ mentary Association at which constitu­ tional development colonies will be discussed.

I sincerely hope he will make a study of the subject so as to be conversant with it when he goes to England.
In order to do justice to the motion it is necessary fer me to go a little into the constitutional history of the Colony to show that the present form of Government .

no pro­ gress at all.

After the annexation of this Colony by the British there was the House of Kiezers who governed the three Colonies-Demerara, Berbice and Essequibo joined together British Constitution an "official" Council as then constituted the Governor a� President, Members, 5 Nominated Unofficial Members, and 14 Elected Members.
In effect there was a Government majority of 15-10 Official and 5 Nominated Members-as Members.

This change was the result of the visit the Snell Commission that Government should have greater control of the Colony in order to pull the country out of the rut into which it had fallen as a result of the economic depression.
The time came when we asked that the Official Members should be withdrawn exception -the Colonial General and the Colonial ober Official the Nominated increased from The Members were removed, but Unofficial Members were five to seven.

from the Council, of the three principal Seci,etary, which recommended we have represents to form the Colony of of the finances from the Dutch the Attorney­ Treasurer.

-w.hich were 14 Elected Guiana.

against Office:-s with the Mr. ROTH: That is quite incorrect.
of Kiezers The College elected Members of the Council.

The country was never governed by the College of Kiezers.

was a body which the Attorney-General, Agent General, the Mr. LEE : I do not know whether my on that, General, of the House of and eight Elected a Court of Policy and a Combined in this Colony.
friend can give me a quotation but on the abolition Kiezers Court were established The Court of Policy comprised the Colonial Secretary, the Immigration Receiver and three other persons holding public office, with the Governor as President, Members.
There were therefore Elected of Policy which The Combined Court comprised the Members of the Court of Policy and· six Elected Financial gave the people's representatives majority that it has been said from that the political Colony has deteriorated, the Combined Court the elected repre­ sentatives of the people held control the purse strings of the Colony.

time to time constitution of the inasmuch as in of 14 to 8.
It is for that ;:eason and Official Members in the Court an equal number of of dealt with legislation.

Representatives, which a by the Royal Commission The three of the Council.
I do not say that the time has come when we should wipe out the r->ntire Official Section Official Members should remain for a period as the Royal Commission has sug­ gested, but what I do say-and it is recommended -is that a Committee should be appointed to go into the question of the withdrawal of the Nominated Members and the putting of Elected Members in their places.
Although not included the Franchise Jacob, Mr. Gajraj and myself obtained the views of the people on the subject variou: to it in our Minority on which we make the following observations in par.

84 : in the terms of reference Commission, places in the Colony, Report on page 24, the question Dr. Singh, Mr. and we refer was of at that "Paragraph 84.
We desire to amend by recommending the decision was reached to \ions as to the this paragraph although confine our recc1:nmenda sufficie:ncv of the present boundaries and were not to include which any such extension of the boundaries, evidence by several to the effect that the 14 Electoral Dis­ tricts should be re distributed to allow of 24 Elected the manner in or restriction was adduced Members as follows:- I representative organisations 1,401 Motion - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Wholly Elected CounciL.


1,402 No.

1 Eastern " 2 New Amsterdam " 3 Berbice River Berbice .. 4 Western Berbice 5 Eastern Demerara 6 Central Demerara 7 Geoi;getown North 8 Georgetown Central South 9 Georgetown l.Q Demerara River 11 Demerara-Essequibo 12 Essequibo 13 Western Essequibo 14 N.W.

District River Population I Voters Proposed dis- of Seats.

1939.
1939.

1941142. tribution -- 54,779 930 3 527 9,739 1 153 } 3 5,299 14,506 566 36,000 1,120 I 36,185 766 r 4 68,818 1,718 4 652 } l f 982 28,136 920 27.849 710 26:519 801 25,750 500 78 7,657 2 2 2 2 i1.

341,237 10,423 24 Representations were made to the that after 1945 the 7 Nom­ Commission inated Representatives by 7 Elected Representatives, and after 1950 (one election period) the 3 Official Members should be also replaced by 3 Representatives."
Elected should be replaced I submit would look after their interests.

that it is not necessary Members at all, and there is nothing to prevent the present frcm seeking Election.

to have Nominated at the next General Nominated election Members As you are aware, Sir, the activities suggested activities of the timber indus­ so as to have three the population and the It in that district.
that the Berbice of the Bauxite Co. in the Berbice River, and the development try have increased industrial was therefore River and the Western Berbice divisions should be re-arranged representatives between them.

It was three seats should be also suggested that to Eastern allotted which has the Berbice largest number of voters.
In the case of Eastern Demerara and Central it was suggested seats between them, and a similar of seats distributed North, Georgetown town South, and two seats each for Dem­ erara River, Demerara-Essequibo, quibo River and Western Essequibo.

that there should be four number between Geo'rgetown Central and George­ Demerara Esse­ Why shouldn't there be more Elected Members in this Council?

We feel that the Nominated Members should give place Members.
If it is argued that to Elected Georgetown being the centre of our com­ mercial activities, munity should be represented Council, the residents of the City would see to it that they were represented at all times by persons who I say that the clerks in the stores, in the City, the ratepayers in this the commercial com­ With regard to the three Official and In every and as such interests, of Nominated they have been the policy of Govern­ but that we should and the first step gives the right of certain interests in this Colony.
Member$ of the Council, useful in directing ment, but the time will come when Elected Members would be qualified to take their places.

I am not saying that that time is tomorrow, move a step forward, I suggest is the abolition Members.

It is claimed that nomination of Members of the Council of representation minority sections part of the world there ar� minority sec­ tions and financial have the right to go to the Electorate.
Do you think that any right-thinking persons would permit their interests, which are always inimical majority, to be destroyed Members of this Council?

that has ever occurred.

point out to you, Council and as such under the law you, Sir, have the right at all times if you do not agree with the policy that is advocated cil, to refer it to the Secretary for the Colonies have the right to dissolve decide on the issue.
I let the electorate say that, because I feel that action will not be taken in a hasty manner.

But let to that of the by the Elected I do not think that thii.

is a Crown Colony Sir, and Members of this for decision.

But I desire to You further and this Council in this Coun­ of State ,I 1,403 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948.

Wholly Elected Council.


1,404 sake that the us assume for argument's masses have a majority and those Members seek to do all sorts of things not in keeping with the policy of Government, right to dissolve Your Excellency that Council.

in this Council has the But let us see whether minority inter­ and Unofficial - two other Official Council two ex-officio Secretary ests cannot.

be given some voice in the administration of this government.
You have, Sir, the right of nomination to your Executive Council and you will find that in 1928 the Executive comprised the Governor, Members - the Colonial the Attorney-General Members and three Nominated Members.

While there were eight mem­ bers that number was not limited by Letters the King's pleasure.

were in the Executive - yourself two ex-officio Members (the Colonial Secretary other Officials, important usually included and five Unofficial the Legislative two Nominated).
would see that there you had the right to to the Executive Council.

nominate who were the Heads of and Treasurer, Members chosen from (three Elected and But in 1943 there Council Patent and might be increased So Your Excellency and the Attorney Departments the Colonial Government General), four Council at The PRESIDENT: They were all ve Council!

Members of the Legislati f I .what it is in a minute the Colony.
and explain It is a matter not of to­ that Members should be remuner­ It is the duty of every Elected if a Committee is should be taken, and Each of this Council.

morrow but of the future.

Constitutional development is not obtained or a day.

You must take a step forward at a time, and that is where I am respect­ fully submitting appointed evidence it should go throughout Elected Member of the Council can then· go to his district all about before the Committee goes there.
That is why I have always ad­ vocated ated so lthat they could do such things.

The Royal Commission has impressed upon Government that it is an obligation on Govern- ment that all matters of public interest be broadcast to the public to the fullest extent and .also w·nat is Government's policy.
Member of this Council as well as Gov­ ernment through its District ers, who, w;1en they were appointed it is said, were to be the father of their dis­ tricts, to direct the attention to the policy of Government every matter that appertains tricts so that they ran appreciate understand of the Colony.

That is why I say the Elected duty to perform, corner of their districts people as to what is req,1ired of them.
Therefore districts lo give they would like the abolition of Nom­ inated Membership of the Council time goes on, the abolition Members and later the abolition ination to the Executive Council.
the people will be in a position evidence and to decide w:1ether of the people in respect of to the dis­ and and, as of Official of nom-• the policy o� the Government to go to each nook and Members of this Council when the Committee Commission­ and inform the have that visits the This present constitution of but what I am it does not say or financial must ncminate Mr. LEE: They were all Members of Council, to have a voice in the admini�­ the Legislative thinking is that if you were thinking the right of the minority interests tration of the government, that Your Excellency Members of this Council to your Execu­ tive Council.
only limits the number to seven, I think, but it does not say all should be chosen from the Legislative Excellency's advisable this Council.
to wipe out Nominated this Council, time goes on - and I feel sure Members of this Council will not object to it - to nominate representatives interests altogether chosen entirely But Your had deemed it to choose the members from Members from you would have the right as of minority is wiped out and the Executive Council is But if at all we are going from the Elected Members until nomination predecessor Council.

We are leadin.
We are leadin.

(( towards self-govern­ we must take that How can we do that when Members and an official sec­ of the people to decide the policy ment and, therefore, step forward - that step which gives the ri,e;ht of government.

we nave here 14 Elected Members, 7 Nominated tion of three Members, with five Mem­ bers from the Elected and Nominated group on the Executive mean to imply that Executive nomination of the people, Council arc not free, but that with it in the minds Council?
I do not those Members on the from their way of thinking, carries 1,405 Motion - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Wholly Elected Council.

1,406 ;;n obligation ernment and to adhere to it whether it be government.

to their detriment to follow the policy of Gov-have that voice that cries· or not.

out for self- There is no doubt that we need T;1e PRESIDENT: The hon.

Member of is not so.

He has perfect To give any impression Council and must free­ is incorrect.

that kind is quite wrong .


He is a Mem­ ber of the Executive know that dom to come to this Council with any matter he does not agree with in Execu­ tive Council - he as well as every other Member of this Council who is on the I do not want ,;uch Executive an idea to get abroad and, if the people believe of the Members to put them right.

that sort of thing, it is the duty politics Council.
but I can tell you, Sir, that politi­ of political voices is good for the who are cognisant where the people's in the Legislative and it is there to be had if what we want and development, only we understand ask for it from you.

Many of the people think that ncmination Colony, cal circles reform do not agree that there should be and Execu­ nomination tive Councils are to be heard.

They do not agree with it, because they feel that nomination does the voice of the people.
In not reflect nomination prnctical lar section Colony save and except those which are now being deveioped, Colonies.

respectfully proved and will be proved if a Commis­ sion is appointed with the approval of this Council wide terms of reference enquire this Colony's respectfully Excellency of a particu­ does not occur in any British as possisble of the change of I therefore and Members of this Council.
such as the African into the question by Your Excellency Mr. LEE: I know it is so, as Your and Your Council with as to freely and conscien­ Council to me quite at­ on the Executive listened Constitution.

submit this motion to Your But what I am saying is that Members go into the dis­ We have passed that stage, .I submit, and that can be has said, but it is my duty to to certain attention Mr. WIGHT: I am rising to second but before an amend­ Excellency call Government's things.
I agree that I have all the free­ dom, because I have time and again ex­ pressed my opinion tiously Excellency has tentively.

if the Elected tricts and tell the people how it would lead to self-government and that we of Members for would like the election where there would the Executive then be the voice of the people, it would That is why I am trying to assist.
greatly upon you that if the Commission impress it should be given such terms is appointed as to obtain the feel­ of reference ings of the people and report accordingly to you as Head of this Government.

That can be brought up report when printed to be made if so desired.

again for changes I feel it will be a step towards that goal which we are all fighting for - advancement political ernment.

We find it difficult time and again, when we come to this Council, in respect of our representation.
By the Rules of this Council Elected Members Member is correct.

of money.

cannot move any expenditure sal adult suffrage and should be deleted I do not say Government will not listen in view of what has passed in this to our representation, Council.

towards the goal of self-government the little I feel if a Commission into this question December, political our sister the motion for discussion, doing so I propose to suggest ment to the hon.
Member who, I have no doubt, appreciates pre.mises the veto ticular that being so, of this Council.

he is unable to put that premise as it is.

I refer to the fact that the second premise is based on the ground that there should be an Elected Legislative inated Members should go and there should be universal I submit he is not entitled Perhaps he will agree with suggestion.
me when he hears what I propose, and the amendment of his motion may be acceptable the fact that one of the of the motion refers to a par­ equalling and as such we would is appointed and report before advancement Colonies, power given us should be extended.

The PRESIDENT: I think the hon.

Mr. WIGHT: I am going to make a phase which has received 1948. there would be that It is based on univer­ towards self-gov­ but if we are going Therefore, Council, so to do.

that of ta go Nom­ adult suffrage.


to him and will, I feel sure, __, __ _ j 1,407 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948.

Wholly Elected Couricil.

1,408 :w:- on.

is-in order Council.

seats, Members of this He knows that debate I feel sure hon.

is need for that hon.

might be demented.

but there is no need to hurry that It would need some considerati hon.

Member would appreciate that he was suggesting Council by the Rules of Debate he is not en-titled to suggest that.
The position to save any further Members will agree-there reform, reform.

as to what the body should be which would take the place of the present If we are to abandon Legislative the Nominated as the hon.

Mover necessary suggests, to have a dual Chamber or assembly such as.

the old Court of Policy and Combined Court.

In the old days it had a consider­ able amount of legislative really in effect one of the most progres­ sive of the Constitutional in these parts.

We lost that in 1928, hon.


Members would With those few words I formally move the amendment the hon.

Member will see fit to accept that only too well remember.

then it would becon1e assemblies I suggested and, I hope, power and was Mr. LEE: Would the hon.

Member give a limited period to the reform?

unanimous and thereby the support, to proceed to the other I hope, of the time of the will be saved and we will have receive the Council, Council the opportunity on the Order Paper earlier.
With matters Sir, I would like to move your permission, that the first premise this amendment deleted and the second be recast.
In other words that the motion be deleted and recast entirely to read: be "Whereas a reform of the Legisla­ as at present constituted tive Council is desirable; Be it resolved that His Excellency to appoint be requested or Committee to consider the Governor Commission whether there should be a reform of the Legislative Council as at present col}stituted and, if so, what form or manner suc;1 reform should take."
a clause of the amendment is is deleted and the of the motion is of The motion is really of having a Commission The substance that the first premise second premise and the resolve recast.

The substance course unaltered.

for the purpose or Committee, reqrn,sting upon by the Council, perhaps, mission lency with terms based on the first motion as to whether there should be universal adult suffrage this particular or not might also consider question.

act.
act.

If that is agreed that, I would suggest the same Committee and the amendment to be appointed by Your Excel­ a similar is also or Com­ The PRESIDENT: Hon.

Members any such should pause before imposing If we are going to limit the limitations.

Committee to two or three months, the effect would work both ways.

It may well do harm to the Colony as well as good.

We must not be too precipitate in of vital importance these matters.
Matters considered to the Colony require not only by this Council, but also by the public.

I think, is unfair to · any Commission that may be appointed unfair to everybody Member will not press for that.

to deal with them and else.

I hope the hon.

To try and rush them through, thought, why I I received a change of Con­ may be granted as early as possible.
only last week from Dr. Solomon Mr. LEE: Your Excellency, am asking that is, that from recent reports Trinidad stitution a letter who is an Elected Member of the Legis­ lative Council and went to England to present returning possibility Colony being changed.

ing is, if the Commission of the Constitution of that What I am think­ case.
He will be and there is a soon to Trinidad the people's to be appointed I may say that I support the view that I had intimated, of Federation at the begin­ that I thought was there is by the hon.

Member-a Mambers­ we should retain a dual house there should be some form of constitu­ tional reform as indicated ning of the Council.

when the question being discussed, some need for a change in our Constitu­ tion.
Whether we should rush into the form as suggested total axing of all Nominated or whether -two bodies - or what form of Con­ stitution should be made, the Committee would decide.

I did not like to take the hon.

Mover of the motion seriously when in the previous suffrage.
he sug­ gested that the person who moved a motion to the effect that there should be a literacy of bis senses, debate on universal adult if I heard him correctly, had taken leave I quite realise test in English because in the progress of development the f' 1,409 Motion - LEGISLATIVE CouNcn..

Wholly Elected Council.

1,410 ' adult suffrage.

As we all know it was by a very narrow 1nargin that it was passed.
It was not due to of that body, as the the composition had to go to the .Legis­ recommendation lative Council.

- one vote - may con­ Government can do its work and send in its report early the Imperial sider ours at the same time with Trini­ dad's.

I do not say it is not an important is that as What I am thinking question.

events are moving forward that side, we should not delay.
But if Your Excellency, thinks that as Head of this Government, we should not limit the time within which I would the Commission certainly motion and accept the amended motion 2s the original withdraw that part of my should report, motion.

Dr. NICHOLSON: I beg to support to the motion.

the amendment that there is some need for reform, but we also feel there must be time to con­ sider the steps I will not prolong the amendment.

to be taken very carefully.

the debate.


I support We all feel Mr. DEBIDIN: Sir, I notice there is iosues, amendment to withdraw on the part of the hon.

an inclination Member for Essequibo River his motion in favour of the amendment.

I will advise him to do so, because I feel that this Council will support the very which crisp and all-embracing has been moved by the hon.

Member for I would like to say, Western Essequibo.


that both the motion and the however, have given rise to some very amendment and I would just like important The first to touch on one or two J•oints.
is this: I would enjoin u9on Government !hat in the appointment the greatest doubt that will be done, because I have 111 the past from experience government to the Committee the Commission to examine the question in 1941 had been otherwise Colony might J-.ave enjoyed universal has got universal adult suffrage.

adult suffrage particularly composition that is appointed.

which h,.d been appointed of the franchise according gets a constitution If care be taken.
I have no of its Franchise of a Commission Committee.

com_posed, this becam-e 0£ the Trinidad seen that a Mr. DEBIDIN: We can play cricket our Com­ the findings report had been discussed, the Governor a visit to the Secretary on this point.

My hon.

friend can bowl and I will bat.

It is clear that the Secre­ tary of State for the Colonies did not of the Franchise disturb mittees which had been confirmed by their respective Legislatures.

That is I know that clear and cannot be refuted.


Guiana is concerned as far as British Committee's and His Excellency time paid for the Colonies with him.

Nothing was changed in the report as submitted original lative Council remains that there is in every Colony, as there is in British of opinion, divergence able.
And because care making the point that the greatest be taken and, I have no doubt, Sir, that you will, when the time com1os, satisfy all concerned sonnel of the Committee Guiana, always a and that is inevit­ that is so, I am merely with the composition or per­ that is appointed.

at the of State the matter to the Legis­ The point for discuSfiion.

and discussed The PRESIDENT: That will be a task!

(Laughter).
(Laughter).

difficult Mr. DEBIDIN: I quite agree it will be and I know, Sir, that you a difficult task, of that difficult task.

will make a success The next point that I would like to refer upon the recital to is the one touching the motion proper.

of Mr. LEE: To a point of corn·ction!

I think I have accepted the amendment.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: I do in Hansard as their own statements, .like that.

It is true they go not think hon.


Members sho'.lld make statements dc;v.rn but these things are printed papers.

That is not a correct -the composition :11ittce ':aused of the Franchise Trinidgd in our news­ Com­ to ge� uni'.

:ersal statement change of the Constitution.

!

to the days of the Combined Mr. DEBIDIN: That is my mistake I would like to deal with the question of the possible The hon.
Member for Western EssEquibo has referred Court, federation sibly with British minds must be turned towards a better form of g•overnment.

seems to suggest federation of the but now we are all thinking pos­ Guiana, so that our The very id(a of constitut:onal of the Caribbean Colonies 1,411 Moti.on - 25 AUGUST, 1948.

Wholly Elected Council.


1,412 -, 1i-• but I that there unless we obtain in the Colonies not only by labour interests concerned, Guiana is concerned that in the states of the union must and unless the Colonies are self-govern­ ·progress so far as British would urge very strongly should be no federation self-government, with which we federate ing.

I claim that such a view would be supported but also by legal authorities.
In all the statute books and the legal authorities, there is the expression a federation be self-determining we think of federation our minds in the direction ment.

I am afraid, government to depend on certain very important factors, Member when he �!1oke to me, that I was not prepared because I am urging the abolition Nominated the recital.

of self-govern­ that self­ and that is wby I told the hon.
seats which are referred to second this motion - and, therefore, before we must exercise Guiana will have for British of opinion however, of to in I want to say that if we are to obt,;,in so is a com­ Unless we to enter in this respect self-govern­ in the community among the various in this Colony one of the prerequisites self-government most important plete understanding groups and sections that we can attain a very high standard of unity and brotherhood.
reach a very high pinnacle I think it would be dangerous upon the task of achieving ment.

We must not be mere ideologists and confine ourselves fancy; we must be practical, the various pared to unite and act as one - not only in things social and econcmic things political to think about achieving That is why I am glad to support the amendment that we should discuss matter soon for a change of the Constitu­ tion.
I feel that consideration question have every chance of success, achieve unity of purpose is long overdue, and that we we provided among ourselves.

- we should not venture groups in the Colony are pre­ to the realms of and unless but also in of the this by t'.

'le hesitated I was completely staggered yesterday, adult at this stage of the Colony's con­ fact that this Council, to accept the ,principle suffrage stitutional that the people of this Colony are not yet ripe for an improved and when one hon.
Member of this life.

It has always been said of universal form of Goveenment, .

To my which he sten - I think that are allowed to exer­ state;nent.
seems to imply th;t it would have made but if ·people now con­ Council states that he fears capitalists would not invest their monev in this country if illiterates cise the vote - something regards as a retrogade is an unfortunate mind, that statement if scme other group who are more literate were in he majority no difference, cerned are granted tbe right to exercise the vote it would not mean th<'.t illiterates only would be voting for the reform of the Constitution.
When it comes to the question of the present Constitution of this Council we should ask ourselves whether we can carry on our own affairs without the help of the Imperial ment.

In other words, it is being sug­ gested that if a certain section of the community can put a majority in this Council it would be all right, but if th,� reverse happens it would not receive the satisfaction I am saying in all sincerity, that hon.
Members who comprise should not fail to realise that we are one in purpose here and in eve1·y other respect.

We should not come here to serve the needs of any par­ ticular to serve the interests and until that state of unity exists I am afraid we should not discuss the question of a higher Constitution.

Some hon.

Members might be surprised to hear me say that, but I will add that we cannot suck the cane at both ends and be satisfied if the other fellow hasn't got any.
group, but as representativeo of the entire Colony, of everyone.

this Council however, Govern­ in 1928.

Under but it is useless Constitution has been made to the 1928 to go back Reference Constitution to it except for the sake of comparison, since one should not cry over spilt milk.
There can be no question about it that we bartered away our rights when we accepted what is commonly known as Crown Colony Government the previous in a position conduct of its affairs, Constitution Members were put in the minority, and it was only through an amendment pro­ vided in 1943 that the Elected Members came into the majority.

fr.om the fact that the 10 Official Members were withdrawn, except for the 3 ex-officio Members who are here now.
Therefore, seven seats we-re rendered the Colony was in the but when the new came into being the Ele::ted to make progres� That resulted vacant by the self-government.

1,413 Motion - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Wholly Elected Council.

1,414 of 7 Official Members and the was that those seats be withdrawal recommendation filled by persons nominated various munity.
or interests to represent in the com­ sections Mr. LEE: To a point of correction: There were already 5 Nominated Mem­ bers when the 7 Official Members were withdrawn.

of why the at all.

I feel asking Government there must be accelera­ meeting after public meeting to pass resolutions report was not published that if we are to have any change the Constitution tion not only as regards.
the appointment of the Commission of its report so that we should submission before have a change of tile Constitution the life of the present Council is ended.

In other words, the Commission asked to consider one of some urgency.

the matter as being but also as regards the sh.ould be Mr. DEBIDIN: My hon.

friend mis­ be that those provided of filling the 7 Members now.

seats whereas of two Nominated in 1943 Government vacant by the amendment me.
I said that seven seats Members - we would because vacant by the amendment in 1943.

If we are to of the Royal - that those seats should· understood were rendered to the Constitution follow the recommendations Commission filled by Nominated find that we have lost five seats, there are only 7 Nominated In other words, i�stead seats rendered to the Constitution have only filled two of them.

The for the amending Ordinance addition there should have been seven additional seats.
I am going to suggest five seats should be filled by Elected Members making a total of 19 seats for I make Elected line of that suggestion thought for the this matter.

will be appointed Members.


At present and 3 Official as against 7 Nominated Members, so that if all the Nominated and the Official Members vote together 2 Members from would require only Elected side in order to create an Elected since the President has rninortiy, vote which he can use in favour a casting of the side on which the Official Members those five lost seats are.

Therefore, !

:hould resulting be added to the Elected much stronger.

Members in this Council.


as a possible bloc to go over to the other from the 1943 amendment there are 14 Elected to consider Committee bloc to make it which I hope it the ' ' f of My hon.

friend has been speaking about a time limit for the production report, the Commission's heard what Your Excellency would like to say that we have had some very unfortunate experiences such reports, especially report of the Franchise have had the necessity as regards the Commission.
We public of calling and after having has said I as regards � There is one: other point I desire that the I feel that of the franchise to make as I anticipate motion will be carried: this very Commission question appointed questions would be considerably result.

supporting I have very great pleasure in the motion as it stands.

early to e·mbark on both I think the status of this Council can examine the also, and if it is improved ,i.s a should be aspirations is no opposition in this.

Council.
Council.

almost simultaneously, because recorded is appointed we find expressions of progressive Mr. CARTER : I rise to support the motion which has been moved, together with the amendment.
Although it to appears that there this motion, yet I feel that Members of can have their views the Council so tiat when the Commission the members would know what are the by their views of the people as expressed I think representatives it is a very good thing that both adult suffrage and self-government discussed in these two questions of the highest people.

amended, dealing with the question seats and be other with the question self-government.
speakers previous for the abolition intend to stress more the desire which I believe for self-government.

for a· mGment to travel into a graveyard amid the tombstones tions and Councils.

that British however, the past again view that the goal of Colonial ments wa� that of self.determination.
They have pointed The motion as it stands ,· and as is divided into two parts, one The majority have stressed of nominated of of the the need seats ; I and again expressed Govern­ of bygone Constitu­ I would like to say, the people in this country have with pride to the self- ha� in the I do not propose of· nominated statesmen 1,415 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948.

Wholly Elected Council.


1,416 of Brit­ as examples in the field of gov2rn_­ Dominions governing ish achievements ment, and these declarations of policy have become more and more insistent, and with the advent of even moreso recently in Great Britain.

a Labour Government Leaders of Colonial peoples them­ I policy, but when the of Colonial should become self-governing.

or inarticulate so the desire for self­ in various Colonies.
They selves have expressed government have not been ambiguous in this fundamental that it appears to me that the question today is not so much whether the Colonies should be self-governing Colonies do hope that is the main isssue which any Commission appointed mine.

So far as British cerned, we must throw aside the apron strings a mother who, however benevolent, tinues to dominate aspirations.

our economic set-up needs of the Mother Country.


the only test-the can be applied in determining not a country should be self-governing, is the insistence government capable of guiding the destiny of the country.

is going to deter­ Guiana is con­ I think the time has come when of con­ us and to chill our I feel that only yardstick-that whether or We find that being a Colony , and the presence of the people for self­ is geared to meet the of Officials On the que,:t on of Nominated seats seats must go.
Like the mover I express the view of my constituency when I say that the time has come when Nominated of the motion, I do not mean to cast any on the present Nominateci aspersion Members, for whom I have the greatest respect, are many who, if they seek election at the polls, would be successful feel they should cor,oe out and face the electorate - they should mix with foe dust of the hustings of the people.

With those -remarks, Sir, � beg to support the motion.
and I feel that among them there and seek the suffrage candidates.

I Dr. JAGAN: I feel, like the hon.

Member who has just taken his seat, that issue the Members in this very important of f;1is Council their views should express so that the Commission, would have the opportunity what bey are.

I was at a -loss, follow the hon.

Member for Eastern when he seemed to suggest Demerara British same breath, ripe for self-government.
Guiana was ripe and then, in the Guiana was not if appointed, of seeing really, that British that to Mr. DEBIDIN: The hon.

Member did not 11nderstand my argument.

The PRESIDENT: I do not want the that Guiana is hon.

Member to give the impression the whole economy of British geared to meet the needs of Great Britain.

That is another way of suggesting exploitation.

is absolutely Member does mean that, then I say it simply is not true.

It is far from the truth-it untrue-and if the hon.


Dr. JAGAN: The hon.

Member's Guiana was reason for saying that British was that if not ripe for self-government this Council vofed against adult suffrage it was not competent of self-government.

cast any ai;persion this Council, that thi� Council is not truly representa­ tive of the people of the entire Colony, since we have been elected third of their number.
to vote on the issue I would not like to on the Members of but it cannot be disputed by only one­ Mr. CARTER: What I do meo.

:., ':::·.
:., ':::·.

that we have to continue goods from abroad is that in this Colony we produce very all the time and yet we , many products as find that there is no great enthusiasm the country, a rule to industJ:ialise with the result to import manufactured and continue to In any event, Sir, I feel it is time th.at we in this Colony assume our full responsibility because, status, us might begin to feel they have some divine right and peculiar other people.

Mr. WIGHT : To a point of order!


It is not proper for the hon.

Member to say of the that we are not and it is people.

We have been elected, well for the hon.

Member to say all very but he does not want to cast aspersions at the mm"!

time, that what he is doing.

We.

the Elected been elected various ber himself third uf the people of his constituency.

as representatives and the hon.

Mem­ constituencies, has been elected Members, have of the be primary producers.
I feet that the people who govern­ representative to accept Colonial if we continue ability to govern is exactly by only one­ i ) t 1,417 Motion - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.Wholly Elected CounciL.

1,418 ' Dr. JAGAN: That is the point I am by one-third of the people in my and if the other Elected .. trying to make; the hon.

Member has proved my point.

Hi,, .

;aid that I was elected constituency, Members have been elected also - or even four-fifths that we are truly representative people?
We are not "truly representa­ tive", and those were my words.

- can he say of the by one-third _nate representation should repre­ This Council this Council.

Guiana as a whole.

If we are sent British to have proportio let us have it, and let Members say that they represent constituents.

t'ilis only, or is not truly representative people as a whole.

50 per cent.
50 per cent.

or more of their Then it cannot be said that Council represents certain of the interests of Nominated reached a certain On the question Members in this Council was seats I feel the time has arrived when this be discontinued.
principle must I think that in the past the Government of this of Nom• the principle country accepted inated Members because they may have felt that the people in British Guiana had standard; not yet that is, they were not capable of going to the and if they were chosen by the electorate, electorate of pre­ they were not capable senting the points of view of the elector­ ate.
Another reason why they favoured Ncminated to give representation but on both points I feel the time has arrived out nominated seats.

elections many candidates tions and would have been a credit to this had they offered themselves to Council, the electorate.

I am sure that if they had been elected they would have been a credit to this Council.

be used any more as argument have not people in British Guiana are capable of country.
that we who giving service to the when we can very well do wit'h­ have shown that there were who had good qualifica­ The last general So that it cannot to certain interests, As far back as 1774 Edmund Burke, and hostile is not a congress an electorate, said that of ambas­ in addressing "Parliament sadors from different .... but parliament of one nation, assembly that of the whole; where, not local pur­ poses, not local prejudices, ought to guide, but the general good, resulting from the general reason of the whole."
is a deliberative with one interest, interests; Certainly, democracy means that very so much about and unity of said, there but, as the hon.

of interests these days.

It is not a question and if we are to have that unity For that reason I feel that people who claim to be to thing, and we are hearing democracy of a conflict Demerara Member for Eastern must be unity of interests action.

the only way is to listen to the voice of the majority.
all educated democratic-minded nom­ support the principle inated seats.

Modern democratic coun­ tries have got rid of nominated and seats, I am sure the time has come when Britis'h Guiana should do the same thing.

The hon.

Member for Essequibo Lee), in moving the original he did not want to see the abolition the thr�e Official Members in this Council.

On the other hand the second part of his motion refers to the "attainment plete self-government within five years."
will not hesitate of abolishing River (Mr. motion, said of of com­ in internal affairs Mr. LEE: To a point of correction.

I said that the three Official Members should remain for a :pedod, and later they should be succeeded by Elected Members.

and submit their feelings rule.
As the last speaker On the other point that nominations interests, should have interests, I also feel that the time are made in order that certain let us say minority representation, has arrived when minority interests should submerge to the majority has said, if the Nominated Members were appointed in this Council, to be preserved, go to the electorate is only a democratic pecple as a whole should policies and if that principle there should be all Elected and if those interests are they should by all means and face the tape.
It that the principle foe determine to carry out, is to be preserved Members in .

for the Government certain interests to represent Dr. JAGAN: Nevertheless, the time be given has come when the people s'hould an opportunity must be allowed to say whom they want as their leaders Council.

I definitely of nominated question to repres.ent feel that on the them in this they of self-determination; seats the Com- 1 .L.
1,419 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948 Wholly Elected CounciL 1,420 mittee to be appointed but recommend that nominated abolished.

can do nothing seats be else not more than two candidates contest a seat.

should but in view of the suggestio1: that we should ex­ for the benefit of the Com­ in all my life as I have just heard Dr. GONSALVES: I would have pre­ ferred to say nothing but simply vote on foe motion, of the hon.
Member for Georgetown North (Dr. Nicholson) press our views so as to have them recorded mission, I feel that I ought to say where I s.tand in this matter.

I shall be very brief, but at the outset I should say that [ 'have never listened tencies from my friend, Eastern Demerara (Mr. Debidin).

As regards this democratic which the hon.

Member has stressed so long, it is either that I do not under­ stand the meaning of democracy, or he has a new and distinct meaning of his own for the word.

Tile hon.
Tile hon.

Member seemed to lay great stress on the point that the people do not have whom they want to represent them.

I take very strong objection principle so much and the hon.

Member for to such inconsis­ to that remark.

Dr. JAGAN: I referred to the ques­ representation.

tion of proportionate of but it 'ilas been brought out of the voting strength of his Be that as it may, he is representative of his con­ Dr. GONSALVES: I do not under­ stand what the hon.

Member is driving at.

He says.


we are not representative the people, by one hon.

Member that he was elected by one-third constituency.

the recognised stituency.

to the suggestion sentative because t'he seat with me and I beat them severely.

For that reason there can be no other con­ clusion than that I am the rightful sentative of my constituency.

do not understand is driving at.


that I am not repre­ of the people in m;v constituency, contested repre­ I therefore I take very strong exception just what my friend four candidates Mr. DEBIDIN: The hon.

Member has a wrong impression.

The PRESIDENT: The hon.

Member is really referring to the last speaker.

1- Dr. GONSALVES: I am referring the hon.

Member for Central Demerara (Dr. Jagan), not have whom they want to represent them.

who said that the people do to Dr. JAGAN: I did not say that.

The hon.
The hon.

Member has misconstrued said.

what I The PRESIDENT: I understood the hon.

Member to say that this Council was not truly representative.

The hon.

Member for Georgetown but of a change of government If that is the question then I the point we are stre�sing in this will come about after and when South (Mr. Carter) said it was not a question that the Colony s'hould become self­ governing.

believe argument the Colony is ready for these constitu- tional reforms.
What I mean is that it goes without saying that if we are to get a change of government then perhaps t'.

'le Legislativ e Council as constituted would be changed to suit the form of government which we would have.

For that reason .I hardly see the need for stressing it.

There is only one thing that perhaps I do not understand.

It seems to me that some of us are approaching the back door, and others though the window.

I have already expressed views on the question and I believe progressive my .
, of self-governm .ent, ,>-- .. it is the final striving of all t'he question people, through Dr. GONSALVES: If this Council is On the question of nominated seats I not truly representative then it is logical to say that I am not representative of my must ask: how constituency.

I tnerefore are we to get about it?

There is only one way for the hon.

Member to get 51 per cent.

of the votes of the people before he can consider himself the views of the majority, think we should be fair.
As Elected Members represent I see no reason why other sections of the community should not be given repre­ sentation I do not think I am saying anything wrong in saying that If we are all working towards self-govern­ ment the big issue is whether we should representative in this Council.

and that is that various of constituencies ,421 Motion - LEGISLATIVE CoUNcn,.

Wholly Elected Council.

1,422 to go into the whole question.


before federation, my opinion is to be have self-government expressed btlt I have already and a Committee on that question, appointed I am in perfect gestion Essequibo to be appointed subjects should consider the raised in the two motions, and I of the hon.

Member for Wes.tern (MT.

Wight) that the Committee agreement with the sug.

am content Committee.

I shall have more to say in the matter.


to await the findings When the Ccmmittee of the reports The motion, as amended, was then put and agreed to.

The Council was then adjourned until 2 p.m. on Friday, 27th August.

� •' t.� ;-.

• .,,.

-�