Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697742893895.pdf (Guyana)
1355 Members Pr�sent LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Estimates, 1945 1B56 tEGISLATIVE COUNCIL erara-Essequibo).

The Hon.

J.

B. Singh, O.B.E.

(Dern­ The Ho,n.

Peer Bacchus (Western Berbice.)

Thw·sday, 14th Decembn-, 19,!f4.

met at 2 p.m .. the Hon.

0.B.E., KC., Deputy The Council E. G. Woolford, President, of the President, Governor, who presided presiding in the absence His Excellency the Sir Gordon Lethem, K.C.M.G., at the evening session.

Th.e Hon.

J. W. Jackson, v:'B:1£...

Nominated) The Hon.


T. Lee (Essequibo River).

The Hon.

A. M. Eclun (Nominated) .

The Hon.

V. Roth (Nominated).

The Hon.

C. P. Ferreira (Berbice River).

PRESENT: The Clerk read prayers.

The Deputy President.

the Hon.

E. G. MINUTES Woolford, dam).

O.B.E., K.C., (New Amster­ The Hon.

the Colonial Secretary.

Mr W.L.

Heape, C.M.G.

The minutes of the meeting of the held on the 13th December, and circulated, Council as printed for confirmation.
1944. were presented The Hon.

the Attorney-General, Mr.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: In the E.0.

Pretheroe, M.C., K.C.

The Hon.

the Colonial Treasurer, M1·.

.B.E.

E. F. McDavid, C on page 3 there is a clerical first line error.

I move an amendment substitution Treasurer" Secretary ."

of the words "The Colonial for the words "The Coloni::t• by the The Hon.

J.

A. Luckhoo K.C.

(Nomi: inated).

Amendment put, and agreed to.

The Hon.

J. L de Aguiar ( Central The minutes as amended were con­ Demerara) .
firmed.

The Hon.

H. N. Gritchlow (Nomi­ nated).

ANNOUNCEMENT.

The Hon.

F. Dias, O.B.E., (Nomi­ The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: His nated).

Excellenc of the afternoon.

y may be here during the course The Hon.

M. B. G. Austin.

O.B.E.

(Nominated) .

ORDER OF THE DAY.. 1945 ESTIMATES The Hon.

Percy C. Wight, O.B.E., Central) .

( Georgetown The Hon.

J. Gan, alves, O.B.E., South).


(Georgefown The COLONIAL TREASURER: l move that the Council for the purpose Committee consideration of the following motion:- int.t, of resuming resolve itself 1357 Estimates, 1945 -14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-C)om mri'ite1'2 1358 approves That this Council from of Expenditure to be· defrayed Revenue during the year ending 31st December.

ve belen laid 1945, which ha en the table:- the Estimates Mr. LUCKHOO: Before asking hon.
Members of Council to consider the estimates I desire to express •regret not in my seat last evening, under the Head of Education that I was and I hope The COLONIAL SECRET ARY sec-that my �bsertce on that occasion did to and to ,not 1::aus much inconvenience Ris Excellemy who was present other·· Mem�rs of Ceiuncil.

I was detain­ Question put, and agreed to.

onded.

COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE.


The COLONIAL TREASURER: It resume at ''Head Eau­ but I very much regret to ask was proposed to cation" Head X-" Fire permission Protection"-which last was completed night, in order to make one smalJ amendment.

to recommit for <>if the which is period-the in aided schools, is due to the revised that this Department .

First of all, a substantial salary a $401,643 - ed in another County and did not return until a very late hour.
In mov­ ing the favourable consideration estimates under this Head-Education -I desire to point out that it may be is cost­ thought a great deal of money, ing G<wernment "H" on to Appendix for on reference that in 1934.-­ page 48 one will observe cost was the decennial cost for while the estimated $377,550 next year is $1,353,104, almost four­ fold, but there are many reasons that increase increase scales of Teachers sum approximating to be .found on page 14 of the Detai!s of Expenditure on this Head.
I do not think that any Member of Coun­ cil will say anything against that because there has been expenditure, for some time a consistent for and, Teachers after a great deal of discussion over a .
period of two years, His Majesty�s Secretary given his approval ary scales as proposed Apart from that, the work 01f this Department a great deal and there are several list of expenditure which had to be provided of the fact that consideration be given to men lower down the lad- der in this particular And I want to tell the Council at the very beginning this Council kept an eagle's expenditure can only say that nothing has been done injudiciously.
Director assistA\ items under the in the estimates for in view and hi1=1 1.ble nt, .

the Deputy Dfrector, have eye upon the rise of and I in this Department, that the Committee of has always to be paid better salaries of State for the Colonies on Education by this Council.

of Education to the revised sal­ Department.

has expanded we have <lone clamour had to The has Leave granted and Head recommitted.

FIRE PROTECTION.

Item 201--Purchase Pump of Trailer $864.


fire Brigade, for New Amsterdam The COLONIAL TREASURER: When to increase to that item the Head was being -considered last night I should have moved an amendment it for the by $260 in order to provide .

That amend­ freight on this equipment to the ment is printed Supplementary and I regret I did not move it at the pro­ per time.

I beg to move that the it.m1 be increased out at $1,124.
carried in the Appendix Explanatory Notes, by $266 and the amoup.t Question put, and agreed to.

Head agreed to with consequential amendment in the to.tal.

EDUCATION Mr. J: A. LUCKHOO: May I Le before you permit any discus­ allowed sion on the Head to make a few prelim­ inary observations printed?

on the estimates as The, CHAIRMAN: Y s, 1359 Estimates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Committee 1360 done their best during the course of this year to keep the estimates down as low as possible.

Hon.
Hon.

Members will notice that is put will tell y0iu of Education During the year the of Scho,ols and Assist­ has had his to a sum of £800 per as shown in the under item 1 (a) ''The Director'' down at a sum of $4,320, but the l1on.

the Colonial Treasurer that his salary has now been and placed at $4,800 under the revised Civil List which has been passed by this Council.
Chief Inspector ant Director salary increased annum or $3,840, Estimates the work of this Depa,rtment has � trained increased and it necessitated of person, apart from the Inspector Schools, of high to be an officer rank.

Hon.

Members will notice that instead of a Senior Clerk for the coming year the estimates for a Chief Clerk, who has to keep in daily touch with the Head of his Department and who has a great deal of work thr0iwn upon him in these times.

fo,r 1945.

As I said befo!.


"e, pnwide Emoluments On that very page that under '' Aided Schools'� Schools'' of the Estimates.

hon.

Members will observe Personal call for $811,960 and ''Colonial for $44,076.

I may point out that increase substantial the fact, as I hav.e said the salaries have been revised has been due to before, of Aided School Teacher.3 and increased.

that Purchase out at $66,720.

wages, etc., $13,685 and other Centres-,tc, On reference At page 15 of the Estimates hon.
Break­ Members will find ''Children's of food­ fast Centres"-(a) stuffs, and (b) New Amsterdam be carried to the Note to page 15 it will be seen that (a) is carried out at that figure to give effect to the scheme for provi·­ sion of better meals .for a greate1· number 1of school children town, and (b) is the provision made for New Amsterdam and other Centres.
in Geqrge­ At page 16 of the Estimates under items for I take it of Domestic The Clerical to urge, that the Berbice "Miscellane0ius," High School for Girls-prQvis­ is at Assistants Establishment shown above the line.

Previously, least some of the Clerical were under the line, but in view of the fact that they will draw a higher salary, which becomes pensionable, they have been placed above the line.
So also are the three Junior Attencl­ ance Officers who this year are below the line but who are now sho1wn at item 1 (i) above the line on the Esti­ has mates.

The Clerical of four.

been increased This year it is eleven and next y�ar No doubt hon.

Mem­ it will be fifteen.


bers will observe on referenc e to Appendix ''K'' attached to the Esti­ is made mates at page 14 that provision Master at $960 per annum, and that has be�n due to the of the Agricultural expansion pro­ gramme of the Government Training It was approved for· Teachers.

�ollege by Legislative Paper, No.


20 o.f 1944, as shown on the No�$ to page 11 the sub,'head 29 and 30-Grant to the Berrbice High School for Boys and Grant to the Berbice ion is made for the increments the Staff and for the salary of a Teacher Science.

that during the course of this deibate hon.

Members will.
Members will.

urge, as I my�elf feel disposed High Schools for Boys and Gfrls should be controlled rather than the members of the Staff b'}ing-under the control of a Body cannot which, however well meaning, for give the Staff adequate in the the work they are performing Those town of New Amsterdam.
schools Second­ ary Schools and it seems to m·�, speaking bers, that this Council fied in bringing Gcwernment that these schools should of Governmen be under the control t and should be that adequate provided f o:r th� m_Emi}?�rij Qf th� staffs.

will be justi­ to the notice of are the only recognised for myself and other Mem­ Establishment by Government by a personnel salaries salaries Council there, ' for an Assistant 1361 Estimates ) 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.
-Co,nvmittee 1362 At page 17 of the Estimates, I feel the time for boys and, I think, per annum should be open Guiana Scholarship-Allbw­ $5,900 '' I hope that ''British ances to scholars, someone wiJl provoke some discussion on that item, because is ripe when one British Guiana Scholarship to girls only.
In the past we have had the Scholarship no,w that the field has grown wider a for Scholarship a girl and not to be awarded to a boy; if it lapses it must not be awarded to the bQY who may be next in order of merit.

I ask Your Excellency's to mention that during the permission of these Estimates, discussion and I <lo s� in order that some consideration of may be given by this suggestion Members of this Council.

should be earma,rked Board.

equipment on which they can be contended salaries but.
unless they have accommodation for the pupils and unless they have the necessary whereby they can carry out their work, that payment to Teachers money.

I want to point out to Govern­ ment that unless the Advis0iry Boar(l bring their weight to bear on the Gov­ ernment to have the schools will be a waste of the Colony's equipped-- The CHAIRMAN: The hon.

Mem­ ber would not mind me asking him to Body.

He is refer to a particular speaking as the Education of the Body which Committee.
is known Mr. LE,E: Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN : J.t is not a So far as page 18 is concerned-­ College'' - I feel that some on the Estimates and I would invite this with this "Queen's other Member who happens to, be a member of the Board of Govern0rs will be more competent to speak upon this Head than I, and I sa.y the same with respect to the Bishops' High School for Girls.

Those are the main points as they appear for discussion, Council not to deal harshly Department show visually department.
ten, and now that we have� as I suppose we ought to, a body of contented rr0�chers.

I ho1pe they will give all their time and attention interests ,respective words, sir, I ask leave that the esti.

; mates under Education because one can hardly of such a large the success It is only time that will of those who attend their schools.

With those few the in promoting be considered.

CommittPe to cari·y on their Mr. LEE : I would like to speak on the policy adopted by Government.
I would like, as I said last year, the Advis0iry ta�sk �nd tn w::i+,..h the uroceeilinQ"� in of the policv adopt�d bv Gov­ ,respect ernment.

But I would like to point o.ut to thii:; Government that the policy adopted by the Advisory Committee and Government alJ well and good to give the Teachers is short-s,o.:ht.�d.

T� i� Mr. LEE: It is not the Education Advisory Committee, but the one of which Mr. Luckhoo, is Chairman.

Mr. J.
Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO: I am Chair­ Committee of man � the Advisory this Council on Education.

I say to in this adequate ·fo:· the Education for which I am very thank­ in parents the neces­ equipment I know that several Mr. LEE: That ii;; what I am thinking of, not of the Board.

The hon.

Member is responsible policy and r:ouncil from his address to the Council on Educatfon ful, on behalf of the children him as Chairman of that Committee to press upon Go,vernment sity to provide the schools.
cannot afford to.

buy books for the children by the You train and pay the Teachers.

but if you do not give them Teachers, the equipment then the nolicy i0 11ot1iin� at all; it is a waste of monev by this Government.

I urge upon the members of that Committee to have the schools as unless that is done it would be a waste of the Colony's the Advisory upon Government more Attendance that there should be in Officers to nress upon Government equipped, properly money.
Further should oress to be properly taught to apply thek training Committee appointed 1363 lt.stima.tes ) 1945 UG1sLATIVE CouNcit.

-Committee i364 and districts to the teachers frQm the bottom.

Th� should ibe appointed In the faland of Leguan several You start at the of laying your foundation I am talking I know seve�al to1 go into and see the number accommodation should go to­ who are not going to They can do that if they liv0 in of my .
;on­ of the chil­ do not go to school and when in the or adequate, the policy on the advice order that they should go around the and not only to g0i to the districts Last year I said, and I schools.

repeat it again, that more Attendance Officers the several of children school.

the districts.

stituency.

dren there are not going to schooJ.

children they do go the aocom.modat10n schooil is not sufficient That is my grouse against adopted by Gcwernment of this Committee.
top instead and building policy of good .salaries and of adequate in the schools equipment gether so a,s to obtain efficiency good results.

years you will see the results.

upon Government Officers eral districts children point out to them that they should children send thei,r be said that we have the Criminal to enforce at school.

that when the parents things for the children in their work at school?

They prefer not to send them to school and to pay the fines to Gcwernment.
ty can only be remedied Attendance those parents to the children to school.

have attended parents were taken there and the Magistrate of force.

That is not the method to be it by a democratic adopted should be one of persuasion tion of the people.
It may Law of children What is the use of enforcing Officers what wrong is being done in not sending them That difficul• by the o.ut to Do that and within five I urge in the sev­ of the age and to Government; and educa­ tried to preach the doctrine the Courts when several that these Attendance S0ime hon.

Members may should be appointed of school-going to go to the parents the attendance have not certain t0i assis,t them to school.

pointing and of that request.

for a Government schools?


Is the policy of lead­ or the Committee that?

If not I would ask to reconsider knows that a of the island of W akenaam has and I would like to know is taking any If Government the Government ing towards Committee the Advisory its policy.

The Chairman section been clamouring School, whether Government steps in fulfilment it is not, then I say that Government is not doing its duty towards of this country.
There is no doubt that Government successful, of the Director shown the benefit the control tion Department.

Committee Advisory that policy and extend it to the whole country-not villages.

they have from .by the Educa­ that the should carry out and under the able direction it to the populated of education of Education to be derived have proved I suggest the people schools confine My next point is that the rep(Jl't issued the Government and listen to speeches such 'people.
In all demo­ has for the edu­ Com.mission shows of the Franchise persons that there are many illiterate in this Colony.

The modern tendency is to educate cratic countries assumed the responsilbility cation of such people so that they might and pamphlets, read newspapers by Government on the radio.

I am not saying that some of those people cannot do so now, but it sh.9uld be the policy of the Gov­ ernment to educate them.

Committee the Advisory with respect to Government cation of illiterates estates?
advise and the Governments in that illiterate foi• some way.

In a certain country, every 100 per.sons there is one person appointed them, and it would be very profitable to this Colony if Government a similar would be able to remove the stigma of illiteracy to the edu­ on the sugar It is the Committee's duty to see who are illiterate people are ·educated policy.

In a few years we recommended in British Guiana.


adopted to teach What has duty to What has Government done in the those schools int<J The next point is that I would like decision as regards the to have a definite matter of converting 1365 Est-imates ) 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Committee 1366 College.

What of a new Queen's Other Colonies doing a'bout it?

I am a in its policy as regards education.


grants for secondary educ':l­ erection is Government member of the Old Boys' Association and I hear of this and that being done, but I would like a public announcement about what is• being done.

Government is very dilatory secondary are getting tion.
What is Government doing as regards pressing Even if the cost is $550,000 and this Colony has to bear $275,000 of it while the balance is provided the Colonial Fund, I am sure every Member would vote the money and the work could be started.

My friend .

says "No.''

He ought to realize the benefit he has derived from secondary DevelOipment and Welfare for similar grants?

education.

as a grant from Mr. de AGUIAR: None at all.

I have not been favoured ary education re.f erred.

I happen to be �.
I happen to be �.

primary scholar.

to which the hon.

Member with the second·· The Carnegie Trade School has districts but is Govern-... of extending its oper­ , instead of and them to New Amsterdam proved a success, ment thinking ations to the several confining certain appealing extend the work to the various I know it would cost money but in five years' time the results pound interest.

parts of the East Coast?

I am to the Board of Governors would be com­ to districts.
and Welfare in for Development I would like to know whether any has been made to the Comp - uf in the Colony.

If no application troller the West Indies for the erection primary schools application steps be taken immediately direction.

houses be erected the head teachers.

grants for that purpose?

has been made I ask that.

in that It is also necessary near the schools Are we asking f O"c thai; fo�· Mr. LEE: I do n.ot know whether my friend went to Queen's College not.
or Mr. deAGUIAR: I have just said ''No."

I went to no secondary school at all.

The CHAIRMAN: I remember that Mr. de Aguiar left school at a very early age.

Mr. LEE: That is why he does the value of secondary educa­ not realize tion (laughter), and why he says ''No" to an expenditure of $275,000.

I am to declare its policy asking Government and to say whether it has made applica­ tion for a grant towards the erection of a new Queen's College.

Sooner or later the Berbice High School will be expanding.
a Is Government providing playground attending Advisory Governm·s it?

They must think of the future otherwise for the students who, will be that school?

I would ask the Committee or the Board of what are they doing about money is being thrown away.

Bishops' of the Advisory in Co1uncil consid­ High School for Girls and High in that the is very dilapidated; but I would like to say is as away what the position The position The COLONIAL SECRET ARY: The answers to the hon.
Members�s num..: erous questions have been most ably given by the Chairman Committee, straight regards Queen's College.
is that the Governor ers tha:t of the two schools-the Bishops' Queen's Colleg&-the School should have priority building existing plans have been prepa,red, a new build­ ing can be erected and much of the material As regards Queen's College available pared, for the reason that the Director of Public Works was originally asked to prepare a plan for a school of 300 pupils, by the Governing for a school o,f 400, which he did, and later he was asked by the Governing Body to prepate a plan for a school of 600.
The Director Public Works the cost today to build in local material which he did.

He was then asked a plan Body to prepare the site is but the plans are not yet pre­ has given an estimate on the existing is available.

of of site, 1367 Esti:mates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE 1368 COUNCIL.

-Committee to accommodate College a new Queen's and the way he got that esti­ 600 pupils, mate was to add a proportion to the plan for 400.

It was urgent that we should get some estimate possible.
as s.oon as With the consent of His Excellency and Welfare to the Comptrolle,r for and told him I have written Development that we must first build the Bishops' High School because soon as he and his advisers the plan.

we can do that as agreed to live, from day to day.

which the children is Look at their homes.

Their conduct in their frequent-in reflected fact daily visits Court.

One to the Magistrate's sees them in all sizes.


I have l,ived next to them ·myself-those tenement rooms where foul language the presence time.

I have heard all sorts of things pass­ from them.

I have seen children ing my o.ffice and one could hardly believe had come from school, because guage they used was not taught them They learn it in the s·urround.­ in school.

ings in which, unfortunately, they lived.


on their way from school, that they the lan­ of children most of the is used in the I would like to see this vote reduced.

As · regards College the cost of the new I have given to Comp­ a figure which is not far short Queen's troller of that quoted by the hon.

Member c:1nd stated that when he could give us an idea .of how much he was prepared to contribute, and in what form, we could ·reach a decision.

ter stands, pursued.


That is how the mat­ and it is being actively Mr. DIAS: This is a very enter­ Clean up dwellings.

yards and giving is concerned.

Chil­ and to this Colony will lbe ruined As long as things continue would not a;:; at · as by half and the other half spent in clean­ irig u,p these tenement people respectable the homes so .that children hear bad words, and let the teaching home go togethe,r with the teaching school.
they are today as far as education dren are entitled tc, be educated get all the State can give them, but it is no good was ting money by teaching them on the one hand and not looking after the homes in which they dwell after leaving school.

ber who can contradict what happens I lived neXit to one and the tenants woke me at 5 o'clock in the morning with vul­ garity.

What is the State going to do; in the just vote money for education primary is going to do?
What would we have been if in our own homes· we heard the to vulgarity these children hear?

Let us place ourselves We would not have· been in position.

them.

· I do ask the position Government this aspect of the problem.

any estimate ing children.

1to bring up good citizens, to criticize to consider I am prepared .for the purpose We cannot spend too much but unless Is there a Mem­ what I say about to supp0rt of educat­ in _these tenement yards?

Is that all the State are compelled schools?


in their something are inclined especially and I have listened the Education discussion, to education.

to think that becaus� speech of the hon.

Member on vote he is Others who are do not take that view.
It as presen:c­ which he the results which In my taining to it with great interest, c,pening the 01ther side of the table.·- Some people one criticizes opposed more sensible is quite open to anyone to say whether he agrees with the esimates ed, or to .suggest thinks would produce the estimates view this Colony moment, and under the conditions pose to refer to, wasting a consider­ able sum of money on education, and I will say how.
Are the children the benefit estimates Merely giving children pay for is not sufficient have always maintained, maintain, of these estimates ernment to purify the atmosphere the teaching in my view.

I aim at achieving.

is at the present that there should be alongside a proposal by Gov­ in and I still which these of the education seem to aim at providing'?

getting I pro­ we WP 1369 Estimates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.
-Commdtee 1370 children live for purifing the at­ make arrangements mosphere in which tbose we wiil never get the benefits we are seeking.

has been so How Government blind for so many years I do not know.

l do not grudge one penny of this esti­ mate, but I say that Gover11ment h, wasting mo�iey because the children are not getting the benefit to derive from this expenditure cation.
one expects mem on edu­ Mr. EDUN: Somehow I am a I have not entered College of other languages of the primary education given and their literature.

n was on or of a sec· yet I think I should 'lot product to me by my country, and I am proud of it.

Somehow I have also acquired a , such as knowledge Urdu, Arabic and Hindi, and I am proua of those languages In those days primary educatio �, solid foundation.
the door o.f Queen's ondary school, be ashamed of myself as a product of given me by my the primary education country.

There was an incident in my life which I shall never forget.

It oc­ curred in 1910 when an hon.

Member of this Council, thought Library ticket into my hands.

It i1as Sesame of knowledge of men, the world and things.

That hon.

Member happens Member, to be the Second Nominated the Hon.

Francis Dias, and I want to thank him today for having put.

that Library ticket into my hands.


It has brought me the success so far in my life.

I do not think he I feel that if our recalls primary education could start from that, point, on the solid basis.

I would be the policy as adum­ content brated today by the Education Depart­ ment.

it fit to hand me a Public Free the incident.

to support I have achieved who is still here today, I do not think I need apologize for myself on education repea.iting ters.
We approved mittee, increased think they deserved, were contingent al mat­ in Finance Com­ in Council, of which I .for teachers, and subsequently salaries but I think they on the promise of thi) we coulu build up healthy m more Un sul.

:u .

l am ot the opmion that the polic_y o.f the Education to erect schools prov1<1e and equipment.

1mperia1 Government the rural districts-to accommoaat10n a foundation citizens present Depart­ ment is very good.

mc:teect, but 1 agree with the non.


Nommated Member (Mr. Dias) that somethmg more ou,ght to be done to save our children bad influence of the cinemas.

which are shown here ought to be cen­ sored and restricted.

than that.

of their environment The American films fr.om the and I cannot say more becau..ie system in this to do better.

like myself from the I want to vote every penny askc!.l.

1 am hoping foundation, Department and I think the should have my at this period.
From 1945 1 :for in this estimate to build citizens primary educa:tion Golony.

I say we are building on an excellent Education blessing expect the Department There is need for better text-hooks.

do not consider the West Indian Readers the best kind of books for the primary schools.

Readers, Graphic Readers.

books, full of intellectual something w.orth while reading.

enough cheap trash in the present books t0i make my heart sick.
I am asking the Chairman of the Advisory Committee They were excellent thought, and I see text­ I remember the Century Readers, the Royal and the reading l to examine these text-books.

On a previous ,occasion the Dira-ctor a sub­ to my heart.

Un­ y of adult education, in reply to my speech, was examining of Education, said that Government the possibilit Ject which is closest.
fortunately, in that direc­ the pioneers tion are not the democracies, friend the Member for River Adult (Mr. Lee) stated a while a,go.

education from an ideology other than that of the democracies­ that o.f the USSR.

There is nothing wrong in following anybody.

I am asking in all eairnest­ ness that now that .they are getting the good example af originated Essequibo as my 13'71 Estimates, 1940 U�GISLATiVE Col.JNClL.
�Committee 1372 Mr. JACKSON: It goes without more money the teachers their shoulders our to educate for better citizenship.

to the wheel and endeav­ the youth of the Colony should put the hon.

Member had.

been following trend of events and had been visiting the schools in the Colony he would have seen that there has been consider­ able improvement the schools.

grant each year suitable desks are provided, the present proved c@ditions of the past.
children benches and of under im­ of He will notice that from a in the equipment day are Working for which accommodation I would like to say also regarding The hon.

efforts , ranting oi:f the educ.a­ criticism and provide :::;o far there has a knowledge as COIIIlpared with the of Education.

on Education, and the children one to decide whether cf this Colony is dear to my who are not attending statements River by the Advisory and he spoke proper accommoda­ 'fhe hon.
Member of facts saying that the ,education of the children heart, and whatever are made to carry it out on proper lines must have my hearty supporc.

been no violent tion policy of the Colony worthy of note.

1·he rambling of the Member for Essequibo (Mr. Lee) puzzled to attack him or to point out his mis­ takes.

He lashed out against the education policy ,of Government he said is initiated Committee of no effort being made to equip the schools tion for children.
speaks without and of what is being do;ne at the present time by Government in the interest He speaks of no attempt being made to build Government Schools all o.ver the Colony, and he uses that as an omis­ sion on the part of Gcwernment and the Advisory Committee, but possibly he is I).Ot aware that in connectio;n the Hammond's Report suggestions those matters apart from the fact that there is no in­ tention build Government Colony-and gested by the Hammond's hon.
Member seems n�t to know that efforts accommodation schools ment.

So far as accommodation cerned and the repairs to buildings, there is a sum v0ited each year for that purpose, some of the worst schools have been reconditioned.

That is evidence that the children pleasant ment of the schools the matter of accommodation in the scho,ols, if the hon.
Member were to he apply to the proper Authorities in possession would be put, perhaps,, of the amount oif accommodatio n that has during the past year and been provided year in order that the!·e in the present might Qe increased the pupils of the schoOils.

Member refers to what he regrets­ the fact that there are large numbers of children school -and he suggests that m<>ire and more and yet more Attendance should be provided made to live in the districts that more children schoOils.
Member's encies in the Colony, the habit of doing, he has ever spoken to the people and advised their children I wonder whether he has ever performed duties of an Attendance visiting the various may mention day as a scho,olmaster own Attendance to my mind was very slow and I, as a teacher, the parents my school and did my best in order to get the children There into the school.

were numbers of teachers who did the same.

I have as a matter of fact succeeded.

I think it is a mis.


: take to look entirely ance Officers into the schools.

and they should be in order would attend th,� I wonder if during the hon.

on the part of Government all �ver the Schools that has not been sug­ with on and are being gone int0i, are befog made to improve the in the for children and also to improve the equip­ of Government's should ibe educated So far as equip- is concerned, with attending made myself acquainted to drive the children surroundings.
of the children At present there i8 to the various Report-the to scho,ol?

cm the Attend­ wish in and already as he had been in Officer.

in those cfays Officers them to :Jend visits the fact that in my own I have been my The system then constitu­ is con­ if the to the when Officer I constituencies?

1373 Estimates ) 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Co,mmittee 1374 ill move and live have i am positive that once we we are all satisfied better housing condi­ ject to pro,vide tions m tne rural districts..
But, sir, Rome was not built m a a.ay, and all these thmgs cannot be accomp�1.,hed.

overnight.

are satisfiea.-and - that the sordid surroundings which the children effect upon their lives a detrimental and once that is recog­ and character, nised in pro,cess of time these places will be removed and better housing conditions wiH prevail.

is said that the system condi­ foir these untoward responsible tions.
It cannot be said also that the Teachers know that efforts only by the Teachers tions to remove the evil.

These Youth Organizations· that are being formed to do good are doing and will continue work among the people themselves, and before long we will be able to see the results put forward for the benefit of the .

children It cannot be of Education But this I do are responsible.
but by organiza­ are being made no.t of the efforts that are being in the intecest a combining and infusing Ass0ieiaitions, in persuading the and meeting at reg1.1lar We have the parents the handiwork in the scho,ols feature of their work and at a system of Parents' system which has been adopted all over the Colony.

and teachers of the children interest in the intervals work of Primary Education among even those who do not send their chil­ dren to school.
An organization of that kind, to my mind, will be far more beneficial pa,rents to send their children to school than any number of Educatiwia1 Offi­ cers.

In these Parents-Teachers' Asso­ done by the ciations children pleasant the annual meetings hibited, excellent d,ren.

of the hon.

Member .for Essequibo River to visit the schools w0irk done in them.
It is all practical very well and good to come into this Council and make statements against the work that is being done in the Primary Sch0i0lsJ ref erring to them as not being sufficient, the results visit the schools wiU be satisfied is being done.

the work is ex...1 and it is remarkable what work is provided by the chil­ from them.
Let Membel's and, I am positive,' they that some s�id work and not seeing and see the real and is made a very I do urge Members of the calib1·e The amount spent on Prima1ry as a large of Government of those who feel Education may be regarded one, but the reason why it is attract­ ing the attention that the Colony can hardly bear the it is because in burden of providing did not receive the past the Teachers salaries with the work commensurate they had to perform.
Now that the has been conscience aroused, Government right in doing what is required, position the fortunate ary Teachers I are placed at present, am sure, is the result of hard work on their own part, on the part of those who are interested part of those who have the interest the Colony at heart.

Let us spend money on Education tive, in the long run we will pat our­ selves for what we are doing in this direction.
is certainly and in which Prim­ in them, and on the and, I am posi­ of Before taking my seat I would the hon.

Member River on the happy like t0i compliment for Essequibo T'here is one matter to which I and who poison the at­ would like to refer, and that is the matter ref erred to by the hOin.

N om­ inated Member, Mr. Dias.

No one reg·rets more than I do the tendency on the part of the children to c0ipy the habits of the persons whom they meet on the streets mosphere with foul words.
The chil­ dren adopt what they hear in the streets where unfortunately do feel, sir, that some solid work can be done if efforts the evil by punishing and women of lewd tongues and habits, sending them where they cannot be seen and heard by otherr,.

But with regard to the tenement houses where the children are forced to live at the present time, there is certainly a pro- and in the sordid surroundings they live, and l are made to remove severely the men 1375 Estimates ., 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
-Committee 137•3 his method that in our general but the colleges have in our general dealing in which he received conditions him on being I compliment education.

so that able t0i enter Queen's College he may have a secondary education > but I shaH venture to say that the1·e are times when persons have run through colleges not run thr0iugh them.
I would like to say further of approach, with matters that come up before us, in 0iur general conduct and bearing here one can see the results of the we have ,received.

education Be that or primary or secondary education education from it must a Univer,s,ity, enter int0i our lives and it must ani­ mate our actions in the right way and make us appear in public not ob­ noxious to anyone but ,rather t0i those with whom we live and move and have our being.
I think, sir, that a tribute should be paid to Primary Education in this Colony.

that those who have no,t had the bene­ and who fit of a secondary have not entered Queen's College, as the hon.
Membe,r for EssequibQ River, but who are in a position the public and to convince that they have cil that the educatio:n is woven in their lives and received themselves enables on them to conduct spheres proper lines in the different of their activities and we ought to give credit to Educa­ tion in general, and as we live and move we continue to be educated.

cation is seen in our lives and actions, unless we have assimilated the education to convince this Coun­ to us has been wasted.
education I think, sir, plea8ant Unless edu­ it, then , ought to be satisfied Mr. LEE : I would like to reply to certain remarks made by the hon.

Member, Mr. Jackson.

Nominated Mr. EDUN: To a point of order!

Are we in Committee?

Mr. LEE.

We are in committee.

Perhupl.l the hon.

Member does not 'know the Rules.

I would like to po.

{nt out to the hon.

Mr. Jackson and this Council that when in his y0iunger day the hon.
Member used to visit the to send the parents in order to edu­ homes of the parents cate and encourage their children to school, then a child.

If the hon.

Member remembers rightly visit my father's enc0:urage larly to church.

Mr. Boston used to home in order to my father to send me r9,gu­ as he said, I was Mr. JACKSON: I did not say in day.
I retired from active my youthful school teaching and a half years old, and I had been doing that from the beginning to the end of my teaching career, not only in my youthful days.

when I was sb..-ty-two who had the 0if the-education of the chil­ Mr. LEE: I am glad tQ hear that because it shows that the policy adopt­ ed by the schoolmasters control dren in the past was a better policy than that adopted now.

They had thought it their bounden duty to see that the parents Aire they doing it now?
They school.

receiving more money are, however, now.

My hon.

Friend knows, and that only too well, that many scho,olmasters are living in Georgetown ing sch0i0l on the West Ooast Demer­ e,ra.

They travel every day to and fro;m Can they encourage school.

children to send thei,r send their children the parents to school?

and attend­ to Mr. JACKSON: I rise to, a point !

The hon.

Member say:; of correction there are many schoolmasters living in Georgetown schools That is not true.
There may be one or two, but there .are not many.

on the West Coast Demerara.

whQ are conducting Mr. LEE: I travel every morning by the ferry steamer and see them.

It can be seen and a check can be made.

At least my hon.

Friend does not live.

and travel down the in Georgetown Coast as I d0i.

I meet them on the There are at least six of stelling.

them: I do not know, however, if they are m charge of schools.

The pol­ icy adopted hy the old schoolmasters proved successful.
ed by the Advisory If the policy adopt- Board is that �he 1377 Estimates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Committee 1378 or by the it would be ei the,r by an of the Government themselves, is Manager Let him there a,re pro­ to be parents be approached Official schoolmasters the better policy to, encourage a better attendanc I do not e a.t the schools.

know whether my hon.

Friend is seri­ ous and honest in his conclusion.


I would like him to visit the school at Windsor Forest which ,remains unfin­ ished and see how the children have Is it fair to the chil­ to attend school.

dren?

The hon.

Member of the Frederickburg School.

tell me that the children vided with books sufficiently educated by the Master in charge.

Many of the parents provide the children Master may be very good and brilli­ ant but if the children are not pro­ vided with books how can they be edu­ cated?
I am telling that the policy adopted sighted and one-sided.

viding desks and benches-all necessary-which can are absolutely not be provided by the Denominations because is why I say Governmen should be that each school should be under Government ment in the scho,ol and the children should with books.

by it is short­ You are p·ro­ of which cannot afford to with clothing.

The control, should be adequate they have not the funds.

That be provided this Government t policy the equip­ who fault.
in the schools.

It is Government ernment's should see that there 1s accommodation for the children hurts the hon.

Member because conscience Government That is why I blame the hon.

Member, because he knows that what I s,ay is the absolute is not the correct one.

he knows that the pQilicy of truth.

in his It inter­ Committee.

of ·the Denomina­ consideration.

and all those questions been sittin-g all those It is known as -the Development The CHAIRMAN : I w�uld suggest to the hon.
Member that he snould secure a copy of Mr. Hammonct·s Report on Education in the Colony and examine it.

I can tell him that for the past year or more a very wide Coru­ mi ttee representative tions and private persons-religious bodies of all kinds and persons ested in education-has .frequently and examining questions.

Educational It is divided into several sub­ Committees raised by the hon.
Member require careful ber must bea,r in mind that all the in which the schools are buildings to the Denom­ kept formerly belonged inations are still clinging there should be some form of contr0il.

Dual control vexed question, by that representative There are a good many subjects discussed.

I do1 not think the hon.

Member would mind me saying so.

The hon.

Member is sufficiently with the difficulties endeavouring big question days on.

Have you got Mr. Hammond's Scheme?

that Government .
that Government .

It is a very to overcome that one can speak for acquainted , is .

Even if the Denominations and it i.s being examined to the buildings of the schooils Committee.

The hon.

Mem­ is a very very to be Then there is this other thing, which That is because and take their, break­ does not provide1 the with proper amenities.

The .
The .

I go to Providence and when the side of the is an eye-sore Court once a fortnight, school on the opposite road is 011t I see the children go in1 o the canefields fast under the trees.

Government schools Masters of the schools ing the children They ·are being better paid now and I am glad they pay.

Therefore real work and get results.

you, Mr. Chairman, to two schools in and show you how my constituency they are.

Whose fault is overcrowded it?


It is not the Denominations because they have not the money.

It is Gov- are satisfied let us, get down to in the proper manner.

are not teach­ with their I can take Mr. LEE: When the estimate is and things are not going up $1.000,000 so good, on whom must the blame be put?

The CHAIRMAN: The Educational during the Development last two years has proposed 'to gin free text books and free meals to the Committee 1379 Estimates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
-Committee 1380 school children the case here because we never thought of it.

It is a very big question.

in England.

It is not Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO: I think if new schools or in existence for age so that the out a survey is carrying was keeping aibreast and that the Education parts 'oif the Colony in the number of the hon.
Member �f the times he would have known that Government for g,rants has applied new schools Department in the various order to ascertain children of school..:going question of building those already enlarging can' be considered.

whether the hon.

Member has provided himself with Mr. Hammond'' s Reoort.

If he has, I do not know whethe� he what has been has read it or digested written there, could not have spoken in the heated way he did a moment · ago.
I think if the matter in a calm and we discuss way 'he would be aible to dispassionate do something for the ehildren Colony.

as surely if he did he I do not know of the was asked to vote the increase he did not stress is a waste of money to Teachers because of those other things.

It seems unfortunate that point at the time when the Council Gov­ and try to_ persuade of salaries ernment not to vote the money as it would have been a waste.
Now that the money has been vaited I do not think it is right to come back now and say that it is a waste because and so.

of S') made In regard to the complaint by the hon.

Mr. Dias I think most of us agree that the behaviour is of the children outside not all that is desired, but it seems to rrne that it cannoit be directly at the door of the Education ment or the Education of some the schools Depart .. placed Committee.

Mr. DIAS: I did not blame the or the Education Committee ment.
I said it was a waste of time what is good- the children teaching Depart .. Mr. GONSALVES: I did not say blamed- that the hon.

Member directly discussion British on the propo.sal Guiana Scholar­ The CHAIRMAN: The hon.

Nomi­ nated Member, Mr. Luckhoo, has to invited have a special ship for Girls.

I have spoken myself on it for many years.

I feel that my views a,re wen known.


I think it would assist expression bility of what is ,a very imp�rtant proposal the Authorities of opinion if there is some as to' the advisa­ .

},�s Mr. GONSALVES: As the hon.

Member, Mr. Luckho0.

'of acco1mmodation not only of Committee but also the and it has been Nominated said, the question has engaged the attention the Education Advis0iry Committee dealt with in Mr.; Hammond's I am not quite so sure the Director himself dealt with the matter.
to say the Committee has not been doing-anythinR".

The matter has and it has been received The hon.

Memb�r before Government.

�.ivP.·-r !

'>t t'h0 verv com­ for Esseonihn mencement of his speech said that tb� money voted for the increased has not at some time or other It is not correct attention salaries Report.

Mr. DIAS: Directly or indirectly.

Mir.

GONSALVES: I am not blamed the Department.

of thingis of the children saying that the hon.


Member direct_ly w- indirectly Now that we have a Social Welfare I think that is the body Organization which has to be attacked for the that exists-the condition behavioiur and the we hear rubout the loose language City.

If the Police .Department is not able to control to.

be far more difficult tion Department so.

It seems to me that the Social Welfare Officers whom some help must be expected.
are the people fro;m it then it seems to me or a;nyone else to do for the Educa­ On the question for gi.rls of a separate I support the .

I did so, before the Com­ scholarship suggestion mittee and I do so to-day.

that it should be definitely that in the event of a girl not reaching I agree also laid down 1381 Estimates ) 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Committee 1382 standard schwarship should lapse and not be awarded to a boy.

the scholarship The CHAIRMAN: We are in Com­ mittee, and the hen.
Member might indicate what, in his opinion, be the value o;f the scholairship.

Gov­ ernment would like to know.

should for boys.

It is possi1le -�hat Mr. GONSALVES: I think it should be of the same value as the scholarship a girl might like tQ take up engineer­ I do not think ing as a profes::,ion.

there should be any limitation of; choice, except where it is obvious that a girl cannot qualify branch of study.

Generally think the scholarship open as that for boys.
in a particular speaking I should be as On the questiOill of the control of the hon.

the vote of the Department Nominated Member hrus dealt fully with hat matter, and I hope his statement Like will be accepted.

I am a member of tl1e Mr. Jackson, and being· also Education Committee we have on the Advisory an opportunity to revise any opinions we may have formed on the Education Committee.

In other wo.rds we have had an opportunity twice.


estimates Committee, to scrutiniz e these Mr. LEE: On the question of a for girls I heart­ scholarship separate by the the views expressed ily endorse hon.

Member for Geo:rigetown Sou th it should I agree that (Mr. Gonsalves).

be of the same value as the scholar­ ship for boys for, after all, the expen­ ses of a girl appear to be greater.
If she desi,res to take a degree at Oxford she will have to pay higher fees than a boy who could go to1 another sity where the fees are not so high, But why shouldn't a lapsed scholarship for girls be awarded to a boy who is Uni ver­ next in orderof merit?

I would hke to ,remove sion of the hon.

Member for George­ town South that I �mggested the impre�­ that the is being would cause I do not say of money spent on education wasted.
What I said was that the policy o;f the Government that money to be wasted.

that the teachers the increased in a half-hearted get ,results I have not a copy of the Hammond report, but I will endeavour one and read and digest it as my friend suggested.

are not deserving but if they work manner how can we from the money expended?
salaries, to get as a considerable in this Colony, particuhr­ directiQns, many times On the 01the·r side we have that the Mr. deAGUIAR: The deibate under this head so far has n0it been very much unlike other debates I have to in this Council listened We have had the usual clamour before.

for improvements in various despite the fact that there has lJe�n what I will describe awakening ly in the last few years, on education questions.
also had the usual criticism amount of money being spent on education quarters view is that the,re on both sides.

as our educational there can be considerable ment, but I happen to be one of th0se who would be content to see !progress slowly but surely.

agree that unless there is careful planning of our expenditur that is being levelled that the money being-spent on educa­ tion is wasted will be justified.

is considered as a waste of moiney.


My own e the charQ"e at Government system is concerned It is true that so hr is a lot to be said in certain improveJ proceed I I happen to be one of the mem­ which considered of teachers, and whose in a were contained Paper which was considered by this Council.

bers of the Committee the emoluments recommendati0i11s Sessional and accepted when I was considering expressed expressed again today-that was the application in that renort.
datiori � contained mention that because I regret to find that some of the things I thought of the view at the time-I have it since, and I express it mv chief concern of the recommeu­ the question but T 1 1383 Est.imates, 1945' LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Co1nmittee 1384 furnishes against the G0ivernment at the time have come to pass, and it seems to me most regrettable.
Here I would pause to say that if the charge is levelled that money is being wasted, the I am about to relate instance abundant proof that there is waste, the fact that those recommen­ despite were pt;t up in very good faith dations and with the best intentions in order for salaries to provide reasonable teachers.

difficul­ ties when that question considered removal to be causing tion among teachers as a whole--the existence deseiribed use the proper term, average the same thing.
be of what might properly as payment by results or, to payment tiy was being was the avoidance One of our biggest of what appeared considerable attendance.

Of course it means or at the time dissatisfac­ about four or that that was never intended school the head teacher drawing a salairy be]ow average attendance five times larger.

I can assure this Council at all.

Ano.ther example that was put to me was that in the case of one particular found himself that of his assistant.
It cannot be, and it certainly never intended in my mind and not in the mind of my colleague Council.

speak for the Director can hardly conceive been in his mind that such a situation would have come abo.ut.

While I would not like to who is a Member of this to be so--certainly that it could have of Educati0in Is that correct·?

was not I I will give another example which The CHAIRMAN: The hon.

Mem­ Payment by results ber is mistaken.

was a system by which the teacher'f!


salary was based on the number of scholars who passed an examination .

Mr. de AGUIAR: That is quite true, but there is a very thin distinc­ tion.

I think it means the same thing.

The CHAIRMAN: The present are based on average system is one by which the salaries teachers ance and n0it on the results ations.

an examination.
an examination.

of examin­ may never pass of attenii­ The children Mr. de AGUIAR: That was one of and this that had to be over­ by Government is that the case would would have met the case, hut the difficulties come: It was felt that the suggestion put forward by the Committee and accepted Council my submission of never be met under the application the propQSals.
to-day :s­ and I have it on very reliable ty-that a head teacher school, of about 60 or 80 pupils, a salary higher than that oif a ht?ad teacher of another school with an say with an ,average The position attendance is drawing of a small authori­ of who 0tf the remained attendanc three year�.

is d,rawing in April of this $10 or $12 per month if that head teacher e is about in that school to-d�y the head teacher has the 0tf about 27 years.
Tnat but what would be the will perhaps focus the attention on the seriousness Government situation.

There is another school within my knowledge where the number on r0ill is about 600 or slightly more.
The average 400.The position is that the head teacher appro.ximately more than one of his assistants was only appointed year, whereas record service is bad enough, position in that school for another I think I am right in saying that in abQut three teacher than the head teacher know the answer I will get but I wish to say immediately concerned, is ,r0iing to be what I regard as a distinction without to anticipate given to me in order to make my point perfectly clear.
I presume the answer will be that on the one hand the head teacher in what is known as the second or third grade, whereas has passed through the assistant mass production (I do not use term very critically) .for privilege of obtaining Grade A or I, or Class I or Class II, and has had the a certificate I want the answer that will be will be drawing a higher salary years' time the assistant it will be wrong.

The answer a difference.

of the sehool.


is probably that, so far as I am teacher the I 1385 Estimates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Comrnittee 1386 teacher is a better not only in respect of educa·­ and that because o;f that certificate that assistant teacher tional qualifications ( the assistant lady) can maintain the schooil better had 27 years' experience.

but because she I re.for to i ::1 a the discipline of than a man who has teacher The COLONIAL SECRETARY: To a point of order.
I must point out, and I would like to read the words of the rep-0rt which states:- 5.

The payment o,f head teachers' was con­ salaries by average attendance sidered to be most unsatisfactory for several reasons, and the Committee has endeavoured by its recommendations to obviate payment by this method.

The question of payment by enrolment was also considered isfactory.
but similarly found unsat­ That is where the money is being and that is the recommenda­ or failure the recQrnm enda­ and this Council that that unless the matter is taken wasted.

I do not know whether the first Nominated Member who spoke had that in mind, but if he did I agree with him.

That is definitely wrong and was never intended.


why when those recommendations were put up, I was at pains to p0iint out to Government whilst I supported tions I wanted to make my position perfectly clear-that the application of these ,recommendations w0iuld mean the success of them.

I suggest in hand immediately tions put up by the Committee in order to improve the conditions of service of teachers will fail, and in about three or five years' time we will find ourselves condition past several years.
We will find that there will be an all-round clamour teachers themselves for a re ... considera­ tion of the whole matter, that when that time co;meR it will be found that our expenditure under this head would be most likely increasP.d a very large sum indeed.

I suggest t.hat if that should come to pass the hon.

Member's remark would-be correct, that the money being spent on education �s being wasted.

as has .been existing for the in the same chaotic and I fear by by Mr. J.
A. LUCKHOO: May I inter­ pose to assure the hon.

Member that what he has referred into by the Director to has been looked Mr. de AGUIAR: I am very grate­ and therefore ful for that explanation do not propose to pursue the matter.

I am glad to hear that the matter is being investigated, my personal should have a,risen at all.
but I would like to express regret that the c�use 1 The Committee thereupon put up which included respect I think it shows and are now being put recommendations But with the greatest and which have been �nd by the Secre­ If there are defects result­ of Education will do I am &ure, to remedy those certain grades of teachers, adopted by the Council tary of S.tate, into effect.

ing the Direct0r his utmost, defects.


to the last speaker rather a mistake than a mistake in their adoption, because the Director cretion in carrying out the recommenda­ tions of the Committee.

I am sure the hon.

Member will· agre4, that if the Director may quite easily the de.feet which has been explained.

do not think the fault lies with the application but with the recommendations Of course nobody if, infallahle.
now goes into the question find a means to remedy of the rC',::ommendations, themselves.

has no dis­ really he I in the recommendations to move the and I invited which authorized the Council The COLONIAL TREASURER: l should like to add that I was the officer selected by Government resolution these salary scales, to adopt the reoort to which, as the Colonial Sec­ retary-has said, the hon.

Member was a signatory.


in that report and, therefore, scales, on the basis of that report which has been adopted by this Council.

the salary today, are entirely as applied There was no 1.

'eservation The CHAIRMAN: Adjustments can be made by means of transfer from one school to another, but l hope that 1387 Est,imates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Committee 1388 will not necessarily cause i,t would mean entire dislocation.
be the result, be­ Mr. de AGUIAR: The explanation of those correct, Treasurer was made by the I explained that the recom­ vons.

It is no good telling with primary educa­ thought that prim­ would be given to the are there and are substan­ and but I went further I said that the were clear, but the arose in the application Secretary and the does not take the Perhaps I may be to say that it is true that of given by the Colonial Colonial point any .further.
allowed the persons who signed the report at least one of them was a primary scholar, and he was dealing tion.

He therefore ary consideration 1·eport.

mendations tially made my point perfectly clear.

then, and I repeat again today, recommendations trouble recommenda me now that a mistake authors of the report, and that means would be found to remedy It does not appeal the defects.

to my commercial sense at all.

My answer to that would be that you ·1vill find it extremely something done.
I would like to ask a question.

Haw is it proposed ation now?

Is it proposed salaries ant teachers, inorease teachers I would like to have an answer The point I to that question.

am making is this: that if those officers who were charged with the responsibil­ ity of ·putting into effect had borne in mind the point that was made, that great care should be of those recom­ taken in the application mendations, would not this difficulty have arisen.
assist­ paid to those certificated to the salaries to whom I have ref erred?

or is it proposed of the .

head to remedy the situ­ to reduce the when the damage is already difficult to remedy those recommendations tor that the matter is being.

gone into,.

No doubt a further recommen­ dation will be-put to Govern­ ment.

You cannot blame the Govern­ ment.

The Director had.

no option.


Mr. de AGUIAR: If it is going to be said that I cannot blame the Govern­ ment I must say that I am not blaming Government at all.

What I am saying is that there is a simple method of malting out a pay-sheet.

the details.

Let us go into The COLONIAL SECR.ETARY: I this.

There are nearly It is not so Bim­ various am enjoying 1,600 school teachers.

ple to put into operation salary scales affecting I am asking the hon.
Member to let us agree to differ as to the responsibility, and let us agree to get it right as soon.

as possible.

so many persons.

revised Mr. de AGUIAR: I will agree, the responsibility I am allowed only a few days ago.

It says provided to make one last point.

This is where it hurts, and this is where it hurts the taxpayers of the of whom I am one.
Much as I Colony, I cannot regret what has occurred, excuse any officer of Government who is of pre­ charged with paring a single pay-sheet for a school -and I have seen one.

I had it in my possession "John Brown, head teacher, Mary Jones, assistant lars'' the very plain fact scholar I asked to accept the excuse that in such circumstances Government fact that there was something that needed going into and remedying before damage was done?

teacher, at a higher rate of salary.


It is like myself to understand.

could not be drawn to the x dollars.

y dol­ for any primary the attentiwi of Am The COLONIAL SECRETARY: To a point of order!

The Director uf but to carry Education had no authority out those recommendations.

N01body could rectify an error found out in practice.

{l,{!Cepted I thi�k the hon.

Memb2t• the as�ur�nc(} of the Direc ..


The COLONIAL SECRETARY: 'fhe !applied for a of Education Directcor fo,r the pur­ legal officer to be seconded pose o.f straight�ning out those defects but he was told it was impossible to cond lit, legal officer.

or to get on.

with it, and r think he I told the Direc­ 1389 Estimates, 1945: 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Comm,ittee 1390 has a very difficult these new scales.

and agree to put it right.

Let us agree to differ job in applying 6.45 o'clock this evening.
Mr. de AGUIAR: Very well, sir.

The Council resumed and adjourned n n til 8.30 p.m. NIGHT SESSION 8.30 P.M.- Mr, WOOLFORD: l desire to that the Head­ inform Your Excellency Education-is under discussion present addressing .education at the moment and hon.

Members are generally on the the Council policy.

The PRESIDENT: We will then proceed in Committee.

The Council resumed, the Governor, Sir Gordon Lethen;, K.C.M.G., President, presiding.
His Excellencv Committee of the 1945 draft Estimates diture at Head VIII-Education and resumed consideration of Ex;pen-· .

The Council resolved itself into COLONEL STANLJ<.�Y'S VISIT TO THE WEST INDIES.

Mr. de AGUIAR: At the adjmll'n­ The PRESIDENT: I would just Bahamas.

Stanley the visit of the over "ZFY" regarding Jamaica and Ber� I cablegram of State to the West Indies.

a personal who states that necessity of being ait an early date in January he will time, as he had like to invite the notice of hon.
Mem­ bers to the announcement this evening Secretary have exchanged with Colonel owing to the absolute back in Parliament after the resumption not have sufficient hoped, to visit all the West Indian Col·­ He will only onies and British Guiana.

visit the Western Group-the Honduras, British muda.

If hon.
If hon.

Members heard his Mes­ sage they would have understood,-ff not I would just repeat that he had to aban­ don it as the time at his disposal being so short that his visit to all the Col­ as well as the West­ onies, would only enable him to ern grotip, spend a very short time in each Colony as to be valueless.

two days to this Colony would be scarce­ ly worthwhile.

occasion leave England to.


visit the East­ British Guiana ern Group including which w i 11 give h i m rather more time .than he come on this occasion.

nouIJ.cement should bqve come out at He proposes w h e n he is a b I e to he would have had, had A visit of one or the Eastern on the next This an­ anomalies rose from his seat and said as the result of the Wight to pursue the point any further Report.
But, sir, during or during the time I was with I was dealing that crept into th€ Head­ of certain ment this afternoon certain payment of salaries teachers Committee's the discussion making a remark the hon, the Colonial Secretary that he agreed with me whilst at the with me.

I do not same time disagreeing nropose except to say that I accept ment that wai:; made that the points enquired raised would be thoroughly into.

And may I add that the hardshin that had been ('reated at a verv early dab�.
I make that request when I say "we" I mean "Government -w:mt the Ratisfaction to know at nre.c::P-nt teachers continue RtenQ �ho11ln he +�'k-en to hardRhin exiRts �mon$!'

-th� I horn� it wil1 .

vprv lono-timP-earlv remedy th<:> tn contif111P-o:inrl fo'l" � wonld be remedie,1 I feel sure that if we� I have referred which I hapnen the announce­ because to.
When the Chairman of the Advis­ was speaking ory Committee under this Head this afternoon, referred consideration or had been sug- schol­ : gested for the award of a snecial { arship for girls.
He has invited com­ to the proposal generally he that was under I believe ments from Members around this table 1391 Estimateis, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, -Committee 1392 for such institutions, a the in thi:, Certain Schools I believe to equal oppor­ I am not 100 per to the matter, scholarship River, as usual-to very much heavier, There is a lot to be said in I have n0 from this so some of our the idea that the wide intro­ I must say that I would like the scale i� in favour of I would like to say that as fai' system, in the denominational and I hope it will continue.
a system of Goverpment of this Colony introducing A good deal has been said during and it seems to me, therefore, I would like to on my left (Mr, J. of them here and have a few of them, this Certain Members have today to find the number jobs that are being carried o.f the higher in this Colony for the purpose, that when the time comes that proposal support as to the wisdom of introducing scholarship.

spoken before me and although all of them did not make any particular reference assure my hon.
friend A, Luckhoo) to bring forward doubt it will receive Council.

support for girls.

One has special only ·got to look back or around at what is happening of important out by women in the United Kingdom and even in this Colony.

There can be no doubt that the time has come when that the men of the world must realize the women are entitled tunities, that the introduction award of a scholarship should be earmarked that we can hope to educate girls for these high posts.
For myself, I hope that when it comes to the ques­ we in this hemi­ tion of higher education sphere will not only content merely with the award of these valuable scholarships the time is not too far distant will be found practical organization ally as a University that we can do the training I think there is a lot to be said fo favour o.f training in our own localitv so to speak.
Most of them, if not all, have to carry on their normal life in these surroundings, and it is just as well that in such an institution duce certain appr,opriate of these Colonies.

the upliftment think, sir, that such an instiution already and my only reason for referring at this stage is to express in a very short while we will advance beyond the thinking �,omething- this afternoon.

your absence at least one hon, Members attempted, Member-I think it was the hon.

Mem­ ber for E1ssequib0i advocate Rchools.


as I am concerned eent.

an advocate although to see a sprinkling there.

We already and I do not think I would discredit idea if a few more were set up, but J think it is well that we should not P.ncourage duction o.f Government Colony will be the best thing for our youths.
I have no doubt, sir, that there are faults but I think on the balance heavier, that system I have said in this Council to my mind it is extremely expect any educational ceed unless there is some .religious and when I say "religious ground, ground" I do not only mean the saying of prayers if I may describe it in this way as a higher religious not hope to achieve the morning and evening prayers at school.
faults in .our denominational system, think that what we ought to try and do is to remedy those faults that are found in the hope of strengthening the system and so maintain that religious which I and, I know, quite background a number of people of this Colony feel is so desirable.

it does not necessarily like to see an increase Government ceed very s.Jowly cation.
o.f thP whether that is an obligation State or not I still coptrQver�i�t matt�ri $peaiking· tro!Il my I must repeat, follow that I would not in the number of but we must pro· to system to suc­ back­ back­ was also made to adult edu­ I would like to say, sir, that but that.

when it to set up the which will be and which will also mean stage and try to do that is practi��l.
that one can­ by merely saying before that difficult in the minds of the Authorities, Although there are certain they may be aJble to intro­ the youths of the,se parts and things of that kind, but to our students, which is referred ourselves.

conditions Reference· on that score.

in these parts so ourselves influence it is a high]y the hope that believe Schools to gener­ I is to it I 1393 Estimates_.

1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.


-Committee 1:394 the basis with attendance the means for adult "Each one teach one'', be drawing the same salary of by 100 per cent.

which means he it is more a question of vol­ and voluntary It is well for Members to remem­ knowledge of what I have read here and there, most of the things I have -read.

inform me that when it comes to adult education untary organization effort.
ber the phrase: and I think when it comes to adult edu­ perhaps, steps cation in this country, might be taken to encourage that being­ done.

As I say, the question of the State providing education is a highly contr.oversial mat­ ter, and I have no doubt it will not receive Member for Essequibo It is his view and of course he is entitled to express it.
As far as I am concerned it is my duty to say to the Governmen{ the things I have said in the hope that both sides of the picture will be taken into consideration.

minor matters deal particularly appear on the Estimates pose to prolong but to deal with them as the items are reached.

I do not pro­ the debate any further, to refer to, but as they items that the favour that, perhaps, the hon.

with the same class certifi­ in a school with an of 400 children think, will be drawing a salary of $110 per month.
Similarly average Headteacher cate will $110 per month.

The salary scale has been fixed on an incremental What I would like to a bar somewhere.
is this: The Head­ have reconsidered of a school with an average teacher of 80 children that is far less bar because with than the Headteacher an average and, there­ of time the Headteacher fore, in process of the smaller school will pass the bar and reach the maximum while the Headteacher tes.ponsibiliity is greater, will remain at $110 because culty he may have in passing so far as the general is concerned.
school I presume·, of the diffi­ that bar of the will be more likely to pass his responsibility of the larger school whose of 400 children River may think.

with specific I have one or two of the school efficiency c­ The hon.

throughout the Col­ ation has also been made to me on simi..1 of the hon.

lar lines as the observation Member for Central Demerara (Mr. de Aguiar) in so far as the dissatisfa tion of the teachers ony over the salary scales.
Colonial Secretary having given an undertaking, I take it the matter will be fully goine int.k:>.

I think a case has been fully made out by the hon.

Member for Demerara, and I hope that at Central an early date the question goine into.

I may just mention, sir, that it is not only those thwt the hon.

Member for Central Demerara complained the matter other anomalies will be found.

We will also find that in a school which has an average of about 80 children, Headteacher class.

of $55 per month.
of $55 per month.

Under the new scale his salary will be increased, 1 prior to this new scale-the who happens to be a first drew a salary about.

In going through will be folly certificated teacher of examin­ or the passing ho1lds and also the Assistant Irt is not my desire to criticize one, but what is the difference?

the system which has been abolished for the present I think we were told over and over again that a good many of the people in this country have laid too much stress on certificates ations.
But what do we see?

The pres­ ent system of salary scale does not con­ form with thait view of the Education the salary scale is Department, because the Head­ based upon the certificate teacher Teacher.

ies complained ber for Central whatever the end to nothing ination result ful character.

get his increment he has to get two or three consecutively good certificates Does not that amount to another of the Inspector's school?

I may be accused product sysrtem, but I cannot see the use of the modern system.
Never form of the examination of being a That has caused the anomal­ about by the hon.

Mem­ Demerara.

form you like it amounts in of what I may call the ancient from the Inspector.

For a Headteacher though it may be of doubt­ and to pass the bar theless having short o.f an exam­ Turn it in to Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: Represent­ 1395 Estimates, 1945 LBGIStATIVE COUNC!L.
--Com mittee U$9tJ will be made from othe1 as being a better system been brought up under the ancient system I would not be too far wrong if I advocate it than the present one.

As I say, it amounts to nothing short of an exam­ ination because the children, dition school be.fore he issues a certificate.

hope the present as is anticipated Department and the Advisory tee.
examines the Inspector con­ and takes the general to that in relation I it is an anomaly which, 1 must say, is not a happy one, and I am .sure that representation quarters not worry myself about that anomaly.

As I say, I take it that Government recognized and, c1S stated by the hon.

the Colonial tary, the matter will be gone into.

I do.

hope that, with the assistance Advisory will be remedied.
by the Education these anomalies system will work well and everything of that, so I need Committee, in respect Commit­ Secre­ of the these anomalies has Another matter I would like to be in the reconsideration of this will be drawing ait sometime scale is the salary of the Assist­ included salary What do we find?

It ant Inspectors.

I am sure, that a Head­ may happen, teacher or other a higher salary than an Assistan+· · i do not think that was th; Inspector.

The headteacher intention.

as the hon.


Member for Central erara has stated, Teacher of a school will be drawing more salary eventually than an Assist­ ant Inspector anomaly which should be remedied.

and that, I think, is an of a school Dem� and an Assistant I see the hon.

Member for Central in or to get the support 10.0 Schools.

a little I think bit bolder.

is Schools of at all.

If it is not good but I am sure to get support Demerara was very very cautious saying that he would not advocate J?er cent.
Government he ought to have been If the system of Government not good do not have a sprinkling them anywhere put it away altogether, he will find it difficult of this Council the country Schools Denominational ernment Schools.

is in favour of Government (Voices: I foresee anomaly which, I think might be no brought to Government's doubt from another find, sir, tha.it the Manager o.f a school will be drawing less salary than the Headteacher.
is not Government's in any endeavour instead I think the consen­ notice, You will That is an anomaly "Question?")

quarter.

Schools.

another of favourin(r" of Gov': which and Berbice which are now being As regards amongst the school I would like to ,recall The COLONIAL SECRET ARY: I just wish to point out to the hon.

Member for Western (Mr.

Peer Bacchus) that these cri,ticisms recommendations made about the salary scale of school teachers are rather late.

The hon.

Member knows .


he sup- ported it when the matter was debated .... in this CounciL.

dissatisfaction teachers the hon.

Member the paper I read last night which is the copy of a resolution passed at a meeting ers' Association ber, expressing recently for the increases primary school teachers.

to remind the hon.

Member of that.

As the Assistant regards on the Estimates salaries by the Government ance with the majority of the B.G.
Teach­ held on the 25th Octo­ appreciatfon Inspectors, thei1· were adopted in accord­ and thanks fo�� approved I only desire in Council vote.

to and of 2!

hours, Mr. ROTH: This debate on Gov­ ernment's education policy having now lasted to it is not my intention prolong it unduly.

There is, however, one point I should like to mention, of the control that is the question private schools.

Hon.

Members will recollect Education question.


Therefore the argument I used then as I under­ stanq a Committee to consider however, Council I would;· to inform the now.

as to what is the position that during the debate on the vote for 1944 I raised the ask Government the question.

I will not repeat has been appointed responsibility but 1897 Estimates, 1945 14 DEcEMBtR, 1944.

-Committee 1398 _ Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO.


With respect to the control of private schools a Bill has been drafted sent to the Union of Private its consideration.

and, I believe, Schools for answer that it would be done.

and I do not know whether 1 got a specific Looking through my papers I came across minutes of the meeting of the Advisory 3, 1943.
Under the heading •·Estimate, Education Department, recorded permission 1944'' this is and I ask your held on November in the minutes, Committee to read it:- Mr. WOOLFORD: I may add fur of the hon.
Nominated the information Member that only this morning a Com­ mittee for secondary schoi0ls, function­ Development ing under the Educational Committee, of which I am Chairman, spent at least half an hour considering­ what their recommendations might be, and Mr. Luckhoo, of that body, has promised the Committee the subject.
He proposes meeting with the other schools, and wiJl has been reached, tel.I they may be or what recommendations inclined with a memorandum on to have a us what decision who is the Chairman to furnish to make.

that two British "Mr. Jacob pro}:i'osed should be given each Guiana Scholarships year, one for boys and one for girls.
The Chairman supported the proposal and suggested that if no girl reached scholarship the second scholar­ standard ship should be awarded to the next in order of merit • (if qualified, candidates.)

After discm-sion agreed that if no candidate either the girls' or boys' scholarship scholarship a re-vote be considered the next year, and that the recommendation Government Estimates to boy it was for qualified the shouM be made to in regard to the and, if necessary, accordingly for 1945."
that there private schools.

of secondary I may mention generally are about 3,000 pupils being taught in I am speaking, various of course, education, and it is their complaint that not only have they not got the accommodation but it is their wish College, at Queen's that they should be assisted aidr--by subvention a very big question the hon.

Member will have some patience in the matter, likely some considerable time.

because it is not at all will be reached for of some kind.
It is indeed, that a decision and 1 hope afforded by State Committee The Advi.5!ory went into recom­ in 1943, that in the 1945 an am�unt should be voted the matter and made a specific mendation Estimates for an additional seholarship I express disappointment 110,t late to insert an additional Estimates before they are finally in a supplementa it might come into force for 1945, either now or or ry estimate, that it has and I trust it is not too sum in the considered, SC) that next year.
been clone, for girls.

Mr. LUCKHOO: May I be per­ Mr. JACOB: Unfortunately I was session and this eve­ I am speaking representing but as a Member of this �he District I have I understand absent during the afternoon I did not hear the whole debate on enuca­ tional policy.

ning not as a member of the Advi30!'.

'Y Committee Council the honour to represent.

that the Chairman of the Advi:;ory Committee the Council's with regard to a.n additional for girls.
I believe Guiana Scholarship on the Advisory I raised the question Committee as to whether pro­ recently, posals would be put before this CouncH we are consider­ in the Draft Estimate ing now for this additional opinion British invited scholarship, mitted to assure the hon.

Member that dis­ in my opening remarks I invited cussion with on this matter because, Your Excellency's the item kave.

when is reached I propose to move in an amount .for 1945.

Mr. JACOB: I am glad to hear Th� for girls is concerned.
was also that.

That is so far as an additional scholarship of Government question raised.

I anticipate opinion submit with all confidence majority opinion ment schools.

ing along those lines, of but 1 on that very vital matter, that thP.

is in favo1ur of Govern­ schools differences but as is custom- Government is proceed­ 1899 Estimates, 1M5 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
._committee 1400 that that Development cannot I believe and I believe If Government .for those children it migh� tai do something fur It is ings available.

do something be difficult the youths and the adults.

a problem which I urge Government to tackle expeditiously.

recommendations have been made by various Committees, the funds of the Colonial and Welfare organization would be available for something to be done in that direction.
I hope that Government will be able to make a start next year, and that when a start is made it will proceed that Jamaica and Trinidad resist the temptation on equality grants, be put up to the Imperial ment, that now that we are a first class Colony like those other Colonies, since they are being helped, I think, friend .says) and that we should press our claim for this additional money to build schools, not only for children but for youths and adults.
As a member of the Advisory I will press that this matter be pursued very rapidly.

with them now) are getting and I think a strong case sho!.1ld and and helped, my to say that we a1·e very lavishly Committee (I cannot Govern"' at a rapid rate.

I understand (tremendously, I have one or two other matters raise but I think it would be better to raise them when we reach the particu· lar items.

to should be schools should be put up.


there are lots I think that wherever where there is room for schools ary, I think it is making haste far too slowly.

there is room for a school-and of places -Government I do not say that children forced to leave the denominational schools, schools and well staffed, children Government schools and leave · the denominational schools fore urge that Government at a faster rate than should be erected they are at the present .
but I think if Government were put up, properly equipped of the majority would travel miles to attend alone.

I there­ schools time.

of school-going age are not lack of accommodation of and I understand that the question tai begin through of adults.

the education the hon.

Member f 01• should I think adults.


I would say that Gov­ -that time three out of every rests solely with the When we consider Demerara (Mr. de Aguiar) is whether Government adult education was also debated, that my friend Central not certain initiate the responsibility Government.

up to the present ten children in school and one or two other reasons-, I think it is the duty of the Government to educate ernment should begin to educate the youths.
As a matter of fact those who have passed school-leaving age would be inclined to educate themselves if facili-' ties were provided for them with some assistance from Government.

I w0iuld not suggest that adults between 40 and 50 should be tackled at the present I realize those of us whQ are in favour of such a system have to meet.

The matter was discussed at var­ ious places, the Fran�hise Commission, oppos.iti.on say that the majority strongly something to educate those over 14 years.
including and I anticipate strong but i in favour of Government the difficulties from certain quarters, opinion adults, would be doing time.

particularly Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO: The debate should be passed this evening.

time, and I think it is the that the vote for on this head has lasted fot some con­ siderable desire of the Council Education The first point to which I wish to direct the attention of the Council is that made by the hon.
Nominated Member, Mr. Dias, who spoke early this, afternoon on the amount to be voted and the benefits which the Colony will derive from the expenditure M:emrber referred very first thing Government should tackle was the purification of some of the homes of the people of this Colony, in order to eradicate the f.oul language being used day after day by children, of that sum.

The hon.
The hon.

to the fact that the It is within the knowledge of Gov­ places in Dem­ ernment that in certain erara, Bet1bice and Essequibo· at the present are not going to school there are no school time children because build- 1401 Estimates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-CM1J,mittee 1402 and other public places.

I do are to be blamed.


They who should educate their not only in their own homes but in the streets not think the blame is to be laid at the door of the Education Department at all, or even that of Government.

1 think that in the first place the parents of those children are the persons children and it seems to me that there is also a duty cast upon the Churches to speak to those parents at the proper time �md to teach them how to conduct their, homes.
To lay the blame either at the door of Government Department at all.

justified toward a better way of living does not 'seem to me to be or the Education the question in this Colony mu;:;1.:, policy of the Edu­ is good, and I think said that the present cation Department Members who have studied of primary education agree with him.
The only complaint or Readers made was that the text-,books are not suitable, used in the schools and that the Department should revert to the old Royal Readers, Readers used in the past.

or so1me oth�r he On the question of secondary educa­ schools is doing its tion several Mem;bers have spoken, and I think Government best to assist some of the recognized secondary grant or subsidy from year to year.

I ,ref er to the Bishops' High Scho1ol for Girls and the Convent.
I now under­ stand that the grant to the Convent has been withdrawn.

by giving them !

:I.

of the erection Certain Members hav� raised the of schools in the and the provision of quest10n country dstricts, homes for teachers Officers.

I think Members must have that it is the inten­ read quite recently tion of Sir Frank Stockdale to recom · mend a grant of $200,000 over a period of six years for the erection of house.s in the various for teachers district�- and Attendance Th\:!
CHAIRMAN: Provision for Houses for teachers are separ­ schools.

ate.

Mr. LUCKHOO: So that what to Officers spoken of by the so many officers one in each district Members are now asking to be done will soon be accomplished.

With respect the Attendance hon.

Member for Essequibo River (Mr. Lee), it does not seem possible for Government to appoint to be able to station of the Colony.
They are doing their work in their own way, and I feel sure that the Head of the Department, who is here, will tell the Council thing is being done to send the children school.

I do not think to the nearest the time is ripe, or will ever become ripe, .for Attendance stationed in every district of the Colony.

Offieers to be that every­ I was very pleased this afternoon to hear the remarks of the hon.

the Sixth Nominated Member (Mr. Edun).

He Mr. WOOLFORD: A grant is being made to the Orphanage.
position salary scales for teachers.

with respect > to who has had niade to ,Mr. LUCKHOO: The hon.

Mem­ ber for Central Demerara (Mr. de Aguiar) raised the question of the of a few head teachers curious but I think no blame can be attached the Director of Education to carry out the recommendations by the Wight Committee the revised If there are any defects in the applica­ tion of these recommendations something to remedy them, and I can assure Mem­ bers that the Director ing with the matter.
I hope that will satisfy the hon.

Member on my righ� (Mr. de Aguiar), on the question this afternoon.

who felt very strongly when he spoke earlier will be done by Government is at present I think deal­ There is hardly anything in view of the discussion more I I think the under this head have been could very well say, because estimates well received, which took place this afternoon early this evening.
I hope that the various and consideii·­ out very much discussion, ation of the head will be conclude<l very early this evening.

items will be passed with­ and 1403 Est11matesJ 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Committee 1404 Item le-3 A,sst.

Inspectors of Schools $1,680 to $2,160 by $120), $5,380.

Mr. EDUN: In districts where the majority like Wind­ of the I have been are East Indians, of Schools in order to make Mr. de AGUIAR: I wish to invite to the salary scale of the Asst.
attention Inspectors the point that it seems to me that this is a matter which might well r·eceive The posi­ some consideration.

start tion is that these Asst.

Inspectors at £350 rising to £450.

I have no doubt that when this scale was fixed recently there was no knowledge proposed ious schools.

ers will go to a maximum of £400.

On that scale head teach­ for head teachers of the scale in the var­ The CHAIRMAN: A few of them.
Mr. de AGUIAR: That is the of Schools scale, but how many will reach that matter.

The post maximum is another of Asst.

Inspector to that of a head teacher His duties are to supervise into the conduct to enquire discipline of the school, ered that both the minimum and th� maximum of the salary scale for Asst.

Inspectors sideration.

is senior o.f a school.


and generally and general con­ should receive and it is consid­ of Schools sor Fo,rest, ehildren told by parents text-books wondering accepted as a poliey.

that they would prefer of breakfast.

instead I am whether that may not be The CHAIRMAN : I think you might raise the point at item 15.
Mr. FERREIRA: I would like to as b Dietician, the Department because when the could be success­ sum, and I was sceptical to the officer who is carrying pay tribute out the duties of Supervising and I must congratulate on the happy choice, vote was passed last year it was rather a la,rge whether the project when I real­ out, especially fully carried in obtaining the neces­ ized the difficulty so as to.

have these sary equipment breakfast running in a satisfac­ centres tory manner.
I can assure the Council from my personal in New Amsterdam river o.f all places, is rather difficult, travelled Orealla, ful and is greatly like to pay tribute has done a successful appreciated: I would to the officer who and her work has been success­ through that but on the Berbice knowledge, district where communication that that officer has to not only job.

The CHAIRMAN: Thank you.


should receive Mistress Training College The same remarks apply to item lb on the next page, and whilst I am on my feet I may refer to it.

It seems curious that the Assistant of the Government for Teachers minim um salary than a trained cated teacher, .a little maximum salary will also be less.

ling or other expenses?

I think the two points I have made should oe lo,oked into.
would be well if Government am not pressing them today, but the question I do urge that some consideration only.

should be given to them.

Item 3-Expen,i;;es, and quite likely her information.

mittee, $64.

certifi­ a lower I Mr. JACOB: I would like to have Are the e travel­ I think it Ed'llcation Com· of having one Committee considered Mr. LUCKHOO: Consideration of the first point mentioned Member is engaging my Committee at present.

by the hon.
by the hon.

the attention of Mr. CREASE: This nomin::tl amount of $64 has been on the estimate for many years, and as a rule it is not touched.

Item j-Supervising to Dietician., ($1,200 Centres Js Breakfast Children $1,440 by $96), $1,288.

The CHAIRMAN: Cut it down to $5.

l see a large number of increases and very few reductions.

1405 Estiflnates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

--Committee 1406 Mr. de AGUIAR: was $5.


expenditure The actual respect to item 1 (d) 1 think, sir, the suggestion at least with my Committee.

made by him will find favour The CHAIRMAN: Somebody's train fare.

The CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

Mr. CREASE: Incidental expenses; probably a new chair.

The CHAIRMAN : Do they break the chairs?

As you have only spent $5 we had better reduce year.

it to $5 for next EDUCATION�SCHOOLS, INSTITUTION S AND MISCELLANEOUS.
Item ld-Res·ident Lady Superin­ tendent ($288 by $24 to $480), $336.

but instead Mr. WOOLFORD: May I suggest s are made in respect to them as is apparently they appear in the Education sup­ of this Council of the when adjustment to the salaries of teachers of giving erfect done by resolution porting the recommendation Committee Code.

That is the authority of teachers.

to salaries ef.fect fore every teacher or person interested would look at the Code for the salaries.
I suggest amend­ that the necessary ment be made in the Code.

That is the proper authority to give There­ for the salaries.

Item IO�Grants, etc., $58,03.0.

in 1945.

The plea I Mr. de AGUIAR: I want to make o.f this item.

I hours a day.

It does seem to an appeal in respect presume that the sum of $336 provides for an increment was about to make is this.

The hours of this particular employee are very long.

I have been trying to work them out.


I think they are something like nineteen be a very meagre wage.

I do not want to interfere wondering its way to carry out the figure at .the maximum of the scale so that the person in this particular immediate benefit, take, I think, for her to get to the maximum.

otherwise it will like eight years with the scale, but I am post will receive some Government can see something whether months for a I the Department j_n with the necessity in the Potaro goldfields.
Mr. ROTH With regard to sub­ head 10, during the last thirteen I have been worrying connection small school would be glad to know what the position is in that respect.

bring to Government's notice sity for a kindergarten Georgetown.

approached £ irst-class city.

The need some quarters.

give the matter some consideration.


school in the is very badly felt I ask that Government the neces­ school in Several parents have rne about there being no kindergarten I also would like to in The CHAIRMAN: I will ref er that to the Chairman .

Committee and the Director of the Advisory Mr. LEE: Under item 4-Books and educational supplies, $550-1 would like to enquire cient to meet the needs of the PrimaJ·y Schools.

this sum is suffi­ whether Mr. J.


A. LUCKHOO: With respect to the school for the Potaro Dis­ that matter is being dealt with by trict, per­ We have written the Committee.

sons there.

We hope to be able to give a reply as early as possible.

The CHAIRMAN: It hi the Train­ ing College.

Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO: With re.fer­ ence to the point raised by the hon.
Member for Central Demerara with Mr. EDUN: I am enquiring the Advisory or the Committee the advisabil­ is considering whether Department ity o.f taking over or aiding the Mackay Memorial a very vexed question.

take up the time of the Council we have not progressed That is I do not want to now, as School at Wakenaam.

much for the 1407 Estimates, 1945 LEGISLATiVE COUNCIL.

-Committee 1408 of the whole day.


I think the Chairman knows very much Committee Advisory more than I do about this matter and now that the schoolmaster removed something has been ought to be done.

Again I want to draw Your Excel­ to Hindi and Urdu lency's attention education whether this and to enquire matter has come to any head as yet.

amount of money There is a certain which has been given by Government Hindi and Urdu education.

tain organizations get Government trifling carry out this education.
what is the position these things should be brought -both the Mackay Memorial Hindi and Urdu education.

for I think cer­ are endeavouring to this little sum in order to help them to today, but I think to restore I do not know School and to a head Mr. LEE: If I am permitted to was just half a mile away School.
Metho4ist o.f that area have pleaded very I went into the question and it was could do nothing say in regard to the Mackay Memorial School, fully with the Department found that Government as the school from a Grant-in'\1\id The residents with Government is not possible conti,olled ing any denominational are trying their best to raise funds and, if necessary, for the purpose to dQ what it can.

it over to Government to have a Government there and so avoid hav­ to consider ocho0il.
They whether school hand it Mr; J.

A. LUCKHOO: I am afraid of to meet the request School, who wrote on behalf of the we were unaJble the persons Mackay Memorial is an existing able of accommodating age and it would be ::i. of school-going breach of the Regulations such a plea.

because school in that area cap­ there to support all the children Item 13-Upkeep Schools' Recre­ ation Grownd, $500.
Mr. FERREIRA: l can only with a school population I would like I do think that New item applies in Georgetown that this schools suburbs.

assume to the arid its to be correct in case I am wrong.

If I am correct, Amsterdam running into a thousand some consideration.

able but the children dam have just one recreation which is borrowed has Department.

large areas of land available, and I do think that a small grant will enable those children ation and so keep them off the street3.
ground from the Police The Municipality should be given Lands are avail­ of New Amster­ to have a suitable recre­ Item 15 - Chjldren's Brea1cfa.st Centres, $81,310.

Mr. EDUN: I am thinking whether do to take advantage by the Centres text-books where Indian children and the parents of the food in those districts are in the majority not wish supplied cannot be given the children want a reply to that, and I ask that it so as to have it on be given in writing I would also like to have a record.
reply about the Hindi and Urdu ednca­ tion grant.

I have not been told any­ thing about it.

instead.

I a M.r.

LEE: May I ask Government it can see its way to establish .for the reason that it is attended from Maria Johanna which whether breakfast School, by children is about two and a half miles away and which is about one from Noitgedacht mile away.
Those chil­ and a quarter dren have to walk those distances to and carry their from school and sometimes breakfast accommodation the school or in its immediate for those children fast and I think if some accommoda­ tion is provided useful purpose children .

it would serve a very in the education of the with them to school.

to take their break­ is provided vicinity whatever No in centre for the Fredericksburg The CHAIRMAN : We will take !l note o.f these comments.
Mr. JACOB: I was glad to hear the tribute paid to the Supervising 1409 EsUmates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Cmnrnittee 1410 increased.

that the amount Centres will be Last year when under a supple­ Dietician by the hon.

Member .for Ber­ bice River and, I think, Government has given an undertaking provided for Breakfast substantially this matter was debated mentary estimate, various be established.

find that nothing has been included for 1945 for that purpose.
this estimate As a matter of fact there is a decrease of $1,700 and the explanation given in the Notes to the page reads: I pointed out the places where these centres can I am disappointed to in o.f $1,700 is repre­ of the salary o.f The decrease sented by the transfer the Supervising the pensionable removal of the cqst of utensils already supplied to establishment and Dietician ($1,200) ($500).

the Produce Depot and the Mail Service obtain at least one truck .for the purpose.
I would ask Government of those services for the breakfast dam Centre to those 'two schools are the most needy in this Colony.

to provide from the New Amster­ which to press either conveyance The CHAIRMAN : I am sure the will take notice of that.

Director CARNEGIE TRADE SCHOOL FOR WOMEN.

Mr. LEE: The salary of the is placed below the Principal, line.

Last year it was above the line.

Is it a mistake?


$2,400, directly from this The COLONIAL TREASURER: of this Institution The is an agreement and is not Govern­ Principal serving under pensionable ment but a contribution the Pension as item 28 on the same page-''Contri­ bution under Teachers (Superannu­ ation) Act 1937, U.K. in respect Principal.''

Scheme.

I think it is shown is made t·owards of Mr. LEE: I take it then that the placing of the salary on the F'ixed Establishment wrong.
in the 1944 Estimates is I believe this Council would vote an increased amount hesitation without for Breakfast and for books.

I Centres merely raise the point so as to find out whether there is any opposition so that the matte·r plementary amount.

can be brought up in a sup­ estimate for an increased The CHAIRMAN: I announced that an application is going yesterday forward to the Comptrolle Development cation is in preparation.

and Welfare.

The appli� r of Colonial M,r.


FERREIRA: The question and Fricm<ls, there is no there are more in need of a centre than in many other in the Colony.

I have only this as regards Edinburgh is that unfortunately kitchen up there.
That is a v�ry malarial area and, I think, the children breakfast schools afternoon of Education can be done for those children, and he assured disposal sterdam Centre can be sent up to those two schools mind that Government Transport me that if a lorry was put at his breakfast I am satisfied in my own can between the with the Director whether or not something from the New Am­ discussed and Harbours Department, The COLONIAL TREASURER : The post is fa.let that any1 particular shown above the line is immaterial the Officer is serving ment.
There are many instances thr:oughout i.f under an agree­ of that the Service.

Mr. LEE: If that is so, I plead that She ha8 permanently.

she be appointed done useful work.

You should go and see the work she is doing there.

I plead permanently that she be appointed .

The COLONIAL S.ECRETARY: It is not her wish.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: have a few minor amendments Item ( a )-'--Secretary $960)-after some consideration ( $720 by $60 to it is to move.

1411 Estimates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.


1'112 -Comtmittee The Berbice High Schools take the place of High and the Bishops' is a large County and a large portion of the , and I see no should not be sup­ educational facil­ Government.

in New Amsterdam Oollege Queen's School in Georgetown reason why Berbice plied with adequate ities.
Berbice contributes and it is distinct­ of the Colony, revenue in that County ly, hard that parents should have to send their children Georgetown ask that immediate adopt the suggestion Chairman into force.

of the Advisory to be educated.

t� I therefore steps be taken to as made by the Committee The CHAIR MAN: It will be con­ to face an Are you prepared of $20,000?

sidered.

expenditure Mr. FERREIRA: If you .are doing it for Georgetown why the same should not be done for Berbice.
I can see no reason The CHAIRMAN : We took over the Bishops' it is now costing afford it?

High School at $4,000 and us $29,000.

Can we o.f these particula1· to approve from $960 to $1,200.

item (b )-5 Senior Instruc­ Grade, and it is considered to ask this Council decided of the maximum of the salary scale being increased Similarly tors ($720 by $60 to $960)-the maxi­ to $1,200.

Item ( e) mum be increased move that the -5 Junior Instructors�!
one at $480 by $60 to $600 be placed above the line and the maximum of her $600 to $720.

scale be increased from This salary scale with the maximum 1 have stated are in accordance with the that Clerical the responsibility Officers is as great as that of those of the Clerical change and increase several in the There is no actual increase expenditure change in the maximum figure but the consequential because the line on account the maximum salary.
deletion of the meeting the CouncH approved of an item under Head­ introduction Agricult.ure-to provide tenance tion.

one item has been placed above at the moment.

It is just a items from $4,020 to $4,560.

of item 26 because o.f the grounds for the main­ of this Institu­ Grade.

Consequently the in the total of the of the increase I have stated is increase I also move the at the last of Amendments put, and agreed to.

Item 29-----Grant to B erbice High School for Boys, $4,848.
Mr. FERREIRA: The Chairman control.

the Berbice mentioned Committee of bringing a·nd approval under Government are dissatisfied of the Advisory the desirability High Schools I can assure you that it will meet with of the the satisfaction who at present teachers with the rates of salary scale which are at the much lower than those paid either High School for Girls or at Bishops' College Queen's that the Authorities salaries.
pay adequate Chairman to take steps to have these schools, under the control is possible, porting for Berbice taken much time to change his views my remark that when he questioned the majority I am wm vote for Government that it has not taken half an pleased hour for him to change that view and o.f the Advisory Committee advocate Schools in Berbice.

the views of the hon.

Member River.

I am glad he has not cannot afford to I would ask the Mr.
PEER BACCHUS: I am sup­ the taking over of the High of people in the Colony merely for the reason Schools.

if it of I support brought his views Mr. EDUN: I am at pains to way.

I think Government how some Members can blow understand one way and then another ought to be con­ firstly cerned with Primary Education.

Now are springing that Secondary I think we should all over the Colony, by making Schools encourage regulations.

certain can take over any other High School in this Colony from now on.
I do not think we Private Schools up 1413 Estimates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Committee 1414 It is n0it a question wholeheartedly.

$20,000 a matter of controlHng those schools.

being well spent.

It is not only but taking over of The CHAIRMAN: I have no doubt the Chairman Committee the present sidering.

has it in mind, but not for year, 1945, that we are con­ of the Advisory Item 32-British Guiana Scholar� ship, $7,574.

Mr. J.
Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO: I under­ stand it is rather too late to move in an amount for the year 1945 with your permission, scholarship lowing.

It will require frame regulations, accedes to the request scholarship as the examination for the is held in June or July fol­ some time to that '.mother for girls only.

if Your Excellency be granted is not paid .for one year.

The proper procedure creat­ is to pass a resolution ing the scholarship.

You cannot under­ take to vote the amount only for one year.
How do you know that next year might not change its mind the Council and decline to vote the amount for the next year?

The scholarship for three years.

I suggest Council scholarship in Council ting out the terms of the scholarship, and not merely vote an amount on the Estimates and leave it to the Governor to make the regulations is tenable that this creating pass a resoluti'On for one year.

set­ the Mr. LEE: Would the regulations be new and different force?
from those now in The CHAIRMAN: If you create a it for three you must create scholarship years.

The CHAIRMAN: We will put it up in due course.

Mr. LEE : Here you have girls a you are only and saying for girls; scholarship Guiana Schol­ for the British competing arship under the same regulations a:3 the boys now.

You are not creating lower standard adding another that it is to be for girls exclusively.

How then we cannot vote the monev now?

Why wait for new regulation� to be made?


Are we going to lower the �tandard or are we going-to keep it at the same old standard?

money can be voted now and the girls fall under the same regulations as the boys.

I feel that the Mr. EDUN: I just like to endorse what the hon.

the Colonial Tr·�as­ urer said.

I am beginning to fear that we cann0it start now as there are things which must I am beforehand.
be considered wedded to free Primary Education, and the day may come when we can give to every child with a little education That is what I am looking but not now.

pushing brains secondary free, gratis and for nothing.

We are just wasting time up this scholarship.

forward to The CHAIRMAN: I congratulate the hon.

Member on his sentiments.

They are exactly mine.

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: If it hap­ Mr. LEE: Here we have the Gov­ pens that a girl does not qualifv at th0 for this year.
the vote examination would lapse.

I think there i"l no harm in placing be a good gesture ment is genuinelv additional it on the estimates.

1t wi11 to show that Govern­ disnosed for girls.

scholarship trained complaining that there are not people for certain ernment sufficiently technical Service, work in Government and here on the other hand a majority of us are willing to girls to be qualified is saying we must delay another and this Council to give an year.
to give opportunities The COLONIAL TREASURER: The The CHAIRMAN: Put forward creation must be formally of a new scholarship for girls made.

The P,cholarship your resolution tha,t form.

::\-nd we will ta,,ke it in 1415 Estimates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Cowmittee 1416 Com­ somer� is saying, like the Chair­ early in the general that to Government an additional When should be provided.

Mr. JACOB: This is what I quar­ rel about.


In 1943 the Advisory mittee recommended in the 1945 Estimates scholarship I was speaking debate the hon.

the Fourth Nomi­ nated Member, who is Chai-r­ man of the Advisory Committee, assured that when we reach the this Council item the money will be particular in.

Now I see a complete v0ited sault.

I see the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer man of the Advisory Committee, that it cannot be done now as re,gula­ tions have to be made.

Then the hon.
Then the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer has to be passed.

to press it-in fact we cannot press it -as Government the amount, ernment to do what it can to let the amount come under a supplementary eltitimate scholarship Government it will do that, it will be satisfactory.

On the other hand the Chair has congratulated in Nominated not having an additional I scholarship.

am puzzled; the hon.

the Sixth Member on his attitude can be awarded.


If this that this Council assures in 1945, so that the additional but I am going to ask Gov-­ Well, sir, I am not going says a resolution introducing I am amazed.

is against $180.

Mr. EDUN: To a point of correct .. ion!

The hon.

Member does not com­ prehend that you are supporting a principle not rush things like that.

g that we should in advocatin a scholarship The object in moving a vote here for gkls girls.
is to provide alwie, and that would require tions to provide girls alone.

a scholarship wder of merit, and that she coul:1 get in July next year.

· if she is placed first in regula­ for a gi,rl can obtain At present for a scholarship Mr. JACOB: The hon.

Member is a skill in the lawyer of the greatest Colony.

I do not blame him alone; I blame the Government, choQiSes to accept some of the blame that is a matter for him.
but if he The COLONIAL TREASURER: I suggest that a resolution made putting on record that this Council scholarship of the creatioin of a for girls.

approves might be EDUCATION-QUEEN'S Item m-Allowance COLLEGE.

to Librar·ian, Mr. de AGUIAR: I am sorry to have to, do it but this question of all0iwan.ces so my throat, always tickles to speak.

I see a new i tern has crept in under this head.

It is true that the a.mount is only $180 but I do not know whether it will g()j up.
If someone on the clerical the why should he duties of Librarian receive If he does not look after the Library what else does he d0i?

staff is performing an allowance?

The CHAIRMAN: I know nothing Mr. JACOB: That is what I quarrel about.

I want to have s0-.ine policy.

Government giving this additional the slightest gives it an 0ippor­ tunity of not doing so.

I hope we will get on a little is not in favour of and better after now.

pretext scholarship, about it.

Mr. J.


A. LUCKHOO: I must the remark made by the hon.

correct Member.

I have nait made a complete somersault realize pointed ial Treasurer.

is an op tb,e difficulty out to me by the hon.

the Colon-: At the present time there in this matter at all.

I which has been en scholarship for boys ancl was made by the Principal that the lady Government who happens t0i be the of the College, has a very job.

Apa,rt from her secre­ The COLONIAL TREASURER: I know the case very well.
A very strong request who assured in question, Secretary responsible tarial duties she is also Librarian the College, store.

She also took charge of the physical aspect of the Library, a.fte:r the printing looking of bQOks and so on.

and runs the College, book of 1417 Estimates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Committee 1418 The CHAIRMAN: By whom has to all this she is now secretary it been put up?

and has been employed In and looks accounts, school reports, the to was in the first iri'stance a for many years.
She clerk.

She is secretary, referred Class· III clerk, at Queen ·s College .

is more than· an ordinary typist and priV'ate after fees, Library and several 01ther matters.

addition to the Board of Governors·.

It is felt that with all these duties, which are far more than those attached to an Class III clerk, ordinary given some allowance work.

It is a post which cannot he filled some time to get into the w0irk of the_ College, it was strongly Board o1f Governors pensation this extra work.
recommended by the that some com­ and in order to keep her there should be given to her for very easily.

It takes a person she should be for the additional is on the normal scale of Her sala,ry Grade B, and very low in the scale.

Government been made out for this speci�l allmv­ after two libraries.

I ance for looking it.

am very glad to support thought a good case had The COLONIAL TREASURER: By the Principal of Queen's College.

Mr. de AGUIAR: I am sorry· I cannot accept the explanation.
This question of allowances that must be carefully mind this is the thin edge of the wedge.

I formally watched.

To my is something move its deletion.

that.

Mr. EDUN: I support Mr. LEE: As a member of the I would like to of the Library Old Boys' Association point out the usefulness at Queen's College.

has said is true.

The Lihrarian has a lot of work, and if the allowance is removed I suggest that her grade should be raised.

see her put on a higher grade.


I would pref er to What the TreasL1rer The CHAIRMAN: Surely it should have gone to the Advisory Do you support it, Mr. Chairman?

Committee.

Mr. J.

A LUCKHOO: Like the hon.

Member f.or CentJ.r:al Demerara (Mr. de Aguiar) I am .also opposed to these allowances, r is worthy but if the o.fi:fice of an increas,e low down in Grade B, give her an in­ crement or two.

of salary and she is very Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO: I am against If the lady is worthy these allowances.
of an increase down in the Grade, give her an incre­ ment or two.

of salary and she is low Mr. deAGUIAR: I am afraid that The COLONIAL SECRE·TARY: This, You cannot rectify those Members who have spoken in favour of this item are not consis,tent.

Let us turn over to the next page and see the salary of the Secretary t� the Bishops,' High School who, I Helieve, looks after all the posting of letters.
The maximum o.f her post is $720, while a Grade B Clerk in the Clerical Service cannot see any reasion to allow a $Pecial to creep in under this vote.

allowance gees to a maximum of $1,200.

is some­ by giving somebody in the because she job.

Y 011 a double increment to be doing a certain like other allowances, what misunders.tood.

the position Service happens would create considerable because, when that officer is she would have had transferred, a double increment.
in the case of the Clerk of the Oouncils, for to give special pra�tice special duties.

It is really more economical.

pay is transferred to this pos,t I do not Mr. CREASE : As ,a member of the of the College may to say that the officE;ir Board orf Govern.ors I be permitted it is the common As I said If somebody with higher allowances I discontent The CHAIRMAN : Was this re­ viewed by the Advisory Committee?

Mr. CREASE: No, sir; it went to the Board of Governors.

1419 Estimates.

1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.


-Committee 1'!20 The CHAIRMAN: We will refer both these heads to the Advisory mittee.

Com· LANDS AND MINES DEPARTMENT.

should be paid to but so long as a lowly see why an allowance such an officer, paid clerk is performing see no harm in giving this allowance.

Members say ''Pay a perMn properly but not by way of an allowance.''

an allowance H is more elastic I sav way·; is a more sensible and more economical.
these duties I The CHAIRMAN : I am going to refer this back to the Legislative Council Advisory Committ€e.

It seems to me that it should have gone there in the first instance.

whole of the Queen's College Committee.

the Advisory I will refer the vote to Mr. deAGUIAR: Special attention should be drawn to the fact that in thjs there are t,wo Department particular Department.
persons in the Clerical The CHAIRMAN: When I appoint­ I hoped ed the Advisory Committees that they would have• the whole business before they come before the Council.

of going into the estimates EDUCATION-THE BIS·HOPS' HIGH SCHOOL FOR GIRLS.

Mr. WOOLFORD: I have risen to ask whether it is Your Excellency's wish that the estimates head should also go to the Advisory under this .

Committee?

The CHAIRMAN: I should say "Yes.''

There is very little on the page.


Mr. WOOLFORD: I see that the )' assistant the duties of a clerical .

The previons was "clerical who could by transfer, clerk is called Secretary designation but there is no person in the Servi�e performing assistant from the Secretariat, duties these poor girls have to perform.

The Director of Education has suf­ ficiently explained the position, should be glad that the salary attached to the post should be raised.
say perform the I ask that and I be also ref erred to the-Advisory Committee.

Mr. WOOLFORD: A point arose prom­ should service.

in Finance £;overnment applications which the Treasurer fo,r the I see the here and during · the discussion Committee ised to take up with the Head of this Department.
to the idea that It relates the greatest encouragement be given to apprentices Land Surveyors' Head of the, Department I think he will confirm the view tha,t frequent are made t,o for survey work to be his Department the Colony, and throughout undertaken his only reply is that he has not the avaiJ,able staff.

There is plenty of work to be d()Jlle, and as the hon.

the Fourth Nominated Member (Mr. J.


A. Luckhoo) kneiws, there are many dis­ the Colony which can­ putes throughout there is no not be determined because I availa1ble Land Surveyor.

who may mention that a Land Surveyor died.

had a large practice has recently I ,ref er to the late Mr. Durham, whose �urveys were regarded as being very accurate.

retired Government Surveyor who, owing to age, is not in a position to undertake more practice than he at present enjoys.
I know of p�rents who are willing to encourage to become apprentices Service even without pay_, but there has been a considerable hesitation persons into the Service.

the pay should be considerably c:rea.sed.

cannot be decided because we cannot get a surveyor in the Mahaicony �mount of to take such I suggest that A case in the Supreme Court There is also the case o.f a to visit the locus in qno, by Government their children and to enter the creek.
in­ Mr. JACOB: i have not been able to hear with advantage of wisdom that have fallen from the lips of the hon.

Member.

all the pearls 1421 Estima.tes, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Com,mittee H:22 Mr. WOOLFORD: N pearls of wisdom.

I was making a practical sug··· gestion.

If the hon.

Member would attend the Meetings of the Finance Committee he would hear all I say.
where we sit cheek-by-jowl only when I find it very con­ Mr. JACOB: I am constitution­ ally against Star Chamber methods, and I attend meetings of the Finance Committee venient to myself.

My whole make-up is against Star Chamber methods.

I gathered from the remarks of the hon.

Member, that he wishes the vote of this Department hope I am correct.

however, increased.

I is increasing are not given to farmers.

we must benefit from they cannot get those lands.


I do urge that since Government of these officers the salaries get some co,mpensating these lands.

Lands which are easily In accessible some cases they are locked up by The time has come certain interests.

when Government must go into the whole question.

That is one of the reasons why I voted against the Civil List.

The officers have instructions bottled up.

on the Civil List to keep these lands The CHAIRMAN: Do you say that?
Mr. WOOLFORD: I suggested Mr. JACOB: Yes.

that adequate for land surveyors the Government provision should be made to be employed in Service.

mean?

The CHAIRMAN: What does that of Lands and Mines 0in the Civil List Mr. J A.COB: I notice that in the items under "Fixed Establishment" there is an increase of $6,480.
In addition the salary of to that I believe the Commissioner has been increased by another £100, so that we can safely say that the estimate for next year is roughly $7,000 more in respect Qi{ the I want to see Fixed Establishment.

benefit.

On the some compensating revenue side I find that the estimated revenue from rents for Colooy lands in 1945 is $12,000, revised estimate $1,000 less.

The estimated ,revenue from Crown lands for 1945 is the same as that for 1944-$28,000.
I see Borne increased revenue is anticipated from Forests, due, I believe, etc.

balata, Lands and Mines, but that is to royalty on timb�r, of $13,000 for 1941- as against the I of applica­ the Canals Mr. JACOB: I have come to th .. tt because persistent for several applications.

conclusion tions have been made.

I have been responsible have sent people to the Department Lands and Mines ove,r and over again for lands.
I can name the places-the East Bank of Demerara, Polder, and the East Coast of Demer­ ara.

Those lands are not given to the I don't kn0iw.

In some people-why, are referred to cases· the applicants the people who actually lands and have thei,r powerful abroad.

I say I have a suspicion.

statement my previous cers have specific strong, the President, I have a suspicion.
that these offi­ instructions is too is taken to it by control those interests If I will simply say foat and o,bjection The CHAIRMAN: Ins true ti ons from whom?

I have always complained that are made to the of Lands and Mines from sufficient use is not made o.f Colony and Crown lands which are available, and that applications Department time to time but are not prQperly attended to.

Thousands of people require lands for cattle grazing and cultivation, but through various devices him?
Mr. JACOB: From the Secretary of State.

The CHAIRMAN: Shall asic Mr. JACOB: I don't mind.

I have made up my mind to speak very plainly 1423 Estim.ates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Conimittee 1424 this year and next year, if I am !

:itill in the Council, because I am thor0iugh­ ly disgusted with Government's methods.

We cannot make any progress.

You are increasing but you are not ,expecting revenue.

Yo,u aire running the Colony into bankruptcy.

plainly the utilization .


You are making no plans for of these lands.

salaries I say that Mr. ROTH: The estimated receipts from Feirests, 1945 are about $14,000 revised Lands and Mines for higher than the of ,revenue estimate for 1941!.

Mr. JACOB: I mui,t excuse my to me.

I have not risen to spelid{ hon.

friend.

I took note of that and said that timber was responsible for $10,000, and balata $6,000.

That is more than the figure quoted by the hon.

Member.
Member.

I must ask him to make sure of his facts before he attempts correct on this :rpatter haphazardly.

I have been studying it for years.

It is unfor­ tunate that the Hansard reports of the debates are not available.

There is some reason for not having the reports of those debates pr�nted in can be made time, so that reference to them from year to year.

I a:m very serious increase mconuts, lands are there.

Just imagine in a country cannot get lands.

production and every ·kind Oif thing.


"'J'he about this matter.

of 90,000 square miles people We want to I do not understand of rice, livestock, pro1test the methods of the Department this thing at all, and I strongly against of Lands and Mines.

I am glad the Commissioner will be able to explain away satisfactorily.

is here, and I hope he the matter I respects of leases, Mr. FERREIRA: I wish to m�ke I think the they overlap each Department.
of land for cattle gr�ing, and it should be whether the holders 0-f one general observation.

time has come when the Department of Lands and Mines should be amalga­ mated with the Forestry In several other, with the result that this C0ilony wastes several thousand dollars.

think the hon.

Member expre;::;aecl himself fully when he said that lands are tied up.

The question especially should be examined, ascertained such lands carry out the terms of those leases-whether they occupy those lands beneficially.
If they do 110it then those lands should be taken away from them.

I have in mind certain places which should be known· to the Department no,t suggesting intention, been any real investigation.

I thirtk lands which are not beneficially occu­ pied should be handed over to tho"e who could occupy them beneficially.

of Lands and Mines.

l an, that it is done with any but I do not think there ha.v At this stage the Council and adjourned until day at 2 p.m. resumed the following