Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697750086232.pdf (Ireland)
DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COMHCHOISTE UM FHIONTAR, TRÁDÁIL AGUS FOSTAÍOCHT JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT Dé Céadaoin, 11 Deireadh Fómhair 2023 Wednesday, 11 October 2023 Tháinig an Comhchoiste le chéile ag 9.30 a.m.

The Joint Committee met at 9.30 a.m. Comhaltaí a bhí i láthair / Members present: Teachtaí Dála / Deputies Richard Bruton, Louise O’Reilly, Matt Shanahan, David Stanton.

Seanadóirí / Senators Ollie Crowe, Marie Sherlock.

I láthair / In attendance: Senator Seán Kyne.


Teachta / Deputy Maurice Quinlivan sa Chathaoir / in the Chair.

1 Skills and Apprenticeship Landscape in Ireland: Institute of Physics JETE An Cathaoirleach: Members who are participating remotely need to do so from within the Leinster House complex, as they well know.

Apologies have been received from Senator Garvey.

Today we will have a discussion and engagement on the reports relating to the skills and apprenticeship landscape in Ireland.
Physics-related enterprises play a considerable role in respect of the Irish economy.

As such, it is important to ensure the necessary skills are devel- oped and supports are in place to support the sector and foster and maintain a highly-skilled workforce that can meet growing demands in areas such as quantum technologies, artificial intelligence and the semiconductor industry.
I am very pleased that we have the opportunity today to consider further this and other matters with representatives from the Institute of Phys- ics.

We are joined by Ms Fiona Longmuir, learning and skills manager, and Dr. Michael Kyle, policy manager.

Before we start, as I always do, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence.
The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by abso- lute privilege.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damag- ing to the good name of the person or entity.
Therefore, if witnesses’ statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discon- tinue their remarks.

It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The opening statements have been circulated to members.

To commence our consideration of this matter, I now invite Ms Longmuir to make her opening remarks.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach as an gcuireadh a thabhairt dom teacht anseo.
I thank everyone for forgiving my extremely poor Irish.

My name is Fiona Longmuir.

I am the learning and skills manager for the Institute of Physics in Ireland.

Together with my colleague, Dr. Michael Kyle, we are delighted to be here today to discuss the skills and apprenticeship landscape in Ireland.

Before I begin, I wish to acknowledge the Government’s commitment to progress Ireland’s associate membership of the European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN, in its budget 2024 proposals.
The Institute of Physics has long campaigned for Ireland to join this important international research institution and I am glad to see the Government taking steps to making membership a reality.

I acknowledge the work of this committee’s predecessor, which advo- cated for Ireland to join CERN in 2019, recognising the important opportunities it offers to Ire- land’s researchers, academics and students alike.
I also acknowledge the support the Institute of Physics has received from politicians across the political divide, Department officials and our members in progressing Ireland’s membership of CERN.

Turning to skills, the timing could not be better to have this conversation as we are currently in the European Year of Skills, one purpose of which is to help small and medium-sized enter- prises to address crucial skills shortages.
Physics-related skills are applicable in a wide range of industries and research communities, meaning they open up opportunities for learning and 2 11 October 2023 working in industries from engineering to medicine and accounting to zoology.

Today, physics- related skills underpin a huge number of businesses and industries in Ireland, with the physics sector in 2021 generating €81 billion in turnover.
Physics-based industries employ 190,000 people in full-time equivalent terms and these employees boast both high average earnings and extremely high labour productivity.

The sector is expanding all the time with 45% growth in jobs between 2010 and 2020.

Given the role of physics in emerging industries like semicon- ductors, quantum technologies, artificial intelligence and advanced manufacturing, we expect demand for these skills to continue growing.

Unfortunately, this demand is currently going unmet.
In June 2021, almost 9,000 physics- related jobs in the UK and Ireland were advertised for significantly longer than average.

In research commissioned by the Institute of Physics, 61% of physics-related businesses reported having delayed research, development and innovation between 2016 and 2021 due to a lack of skilled workers.

This is a big missed opportunity to accelerate homegrown innovation and could result in technologies being developed abroad, further deepening the loss of skills.
Existing shortfalls, coupled with growing demand for physics skills, mean that the skills gap is likely to widen in the coming years.

Improving the appeal of physics to all people, including those from under-represented groups, offers the most efficient and effective way of increas- ing the overall numbers of people in the community.

Stereotypes still persist that stop young people believing they can study physics or dreaming of the opportunities physics careers can offer.
Physics offers a wealth of benefits to individuals and, ultimately, to society.

It develops ways of reasoning that broaden horizons and open doors.

It provides powerful and beautiful explanations about the workings of the world, which deepen our understanding and can spur in- novation.

We want to build a sustainable and thriving skills-based ecosystem that will support the next industrial revolution, which will, in turn, sustain the health, wealth and well-being of our future generations.
Urgent and sustained action is required to give all young people access to a high-quality physics education and equip them with ways of thinking that will help them navigate the choic- es and challenges they face in society.
At school, this means that all young people should have access to a specialist physics teacher who is empowered by ongoing professional development to confidently deliver the curriculum and advise students on the wide range of opportunities open to them once they complete their mandatory education.

Ireland ranks significantly above the OECD average in its share of young adults with a ter- tiary degree.
However, access to well-paid and productive career paths should not be limited to those pursuing a degree.

In fact, approximately half of physics-related jobs do not require a degree, making further education and training a valuable and underutilised tool in the closing of the skills gap.

There have been significant positive changes in the apprenticeship sector in recent times with the establishment of the national apprenticeship office and the launching of Generation Apprenticeship.
The five-year apprenticeship action plan is wide-ranging and am- bitious and the Institute of Physics would welcome the opportunity to support the building of an apprenticeship landscape that is responsive to the changing needs of employers, attractive to learners from all backgrounds and, most of all, able to deliver the skilled workforce that will power the industries shaping our future.
The recent Institute of Physics report, Solving Skills, identified a number of areas of op- portunity for governments in the UK and Ireland to address the systemic issues holding back the growth of skills in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, and particu- larly STEM apprenticeships.

The first is ensuring that a broad and genuinely representative 3 JETE cross-section of industry is involved in shaping apprenticeships.
Apprenticeships are uniquely positioned to tackle the skills gap if we are able to create opportunity in those sectors poised for future growth.

The second is ensuring young people in education before the age of 16 are meaningfully exposed to local employers and technical education providers in order that ap- prenticeships are better understood as a viable route into jobs.
At the moment, 16 counties have three or fewer apprenticeships open for application on the Generation Apprenticeship website and four counties have none at all.

The third area is tackling the shortage of skilled apprenticeship educators to ensure quality provision and addressing the severe shortage of physics teachers in schools.

Skilled workers require a great education and a great education relies on great teachers.
By tackling teacher recruitment, retention and retraining, we will equip a generation with the skills required to undertake the jobs of the future.

The fourth is taking decisive action to break down stereo- types about physics, science and apprenticeships, including making whole-school equity plans mandatory in all schools and nurseries.
Of the 45 apprenticeships offered in construction, elec- trical, engineering, finance, ICT and the motor industry, only six had more than 20% female participation in 2022.

Apprenticeships must be made attractive and welcoming to learners from all backgrounds, with particular focus on under-represented groups such as women and girls, disabled learners, learners from minority ethnic backgrounds and learners from disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds.
The fifth area of opportunity is improving data collection on the progression and destination of apprentices to ensure systems are genuinely inclusive and to inform policy and action.

The Institute of Physics is a passionate advocate for the benefits physics can bring both to the individual and to society at large.

We will continue to work to bring those benefits to the greatest number of people possible.
We believe that a thriving and robust physics ecosystem from early years through to further and higher education will equip future generations to close the skills gap and deliver the economic and societal benefits of the next industrial revolution.

We thank members for their attention today.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: I thank our witnesses for the information they have shared with us this morning.

While I was reading the submission last night, I was having a think about this.
Naturally, you think about your own schooling, when many of us were first exposed to phys- ics, although I have a cousin who is a physicist who tells me that physics is all around us so we have been exposed to it since we were babies.

However, in truth, we do not think about it until we are presented with that choice.

In my case, it was a choice between physics and history and history won out but, if I am honest, I do not think I was any great loss to the world of physics.
I have a question on negative stereotyping.

When I was at school, which is a very long time ago now, certain subjects were for the lads and not for the girls while certain subjects were for maths nerds and not the sporty people and so on.

There is a kind of negative stereotyping at play.

The same thing happens with apprenticeships.


It is mentioned in the presentation that this kind of negative stereotyping exists and we know about it because it is all around us but will the witnesses outline anything they feel would be key in tackling these issues to ensure that more people come to these decisions with the kind of open mind I did not have?

For us, if we wanted to go to college, we had to maximise our points and focus on the things we might be good at.
We were not to go down the road of learning for the sake of learning.

It was all about focus.

A good bit of work has been done, although there is more to do, in ridding apprenticeships of the negative stereotypes associated with them, although they are still there.

It is the same thing with physics.

What can we do?

What are the easy things to do and what are the more systemic 4 actions that could be taken?
11 October 2023 Ms Fiona Longmuir: We are talking about significant societal issues that are really system- ic so there is no one simple solution to remove the barriers we are talking about.

The approach the Institute of Physics has started to take is to look at the whole physics ecosystem rather than trying to influence young people as they make decisions on subjects for the leaving certificate or trying to influence people into taking up apprenticeships.
We are recognising that messages are drip-fed in from early years education and compounded at every stage through the ecosys- tem.

That is one thing; we have to look at it as a cohesive ecosystem rather than picking out specific parts.

The approach the Institute of Physics is taking in our Limit Less campaign, our campaign against stereotypes in physics, recognises that this is not a problem of young people’s making.
It is one thing to go straight to the young people - their voice is obviously incredibly important - but we are looking at those who influence those young people and at the different places they are getting those messages from.

They are getting those messages from the adults in their lives, their families, their communities, their schools, the Government and the media.
It comes from lots of different places and, if we want to influence young people, we need to think about influencing those influencers first.

When it comes to apprenticeships, the Deputy is spot on.

Our Solving Skills report found that there are still a lot of negative stereotypes around apprentices, particularly from families.

They are often still seen as a low-status option, which is obviously not true at all.
Something that is really interesting about physics and apprenticeships is that the stereotypes almost work against each other.

Physics is seen as a really elitist and impractical academic subject, while the apprenticeship stereotypes are the opposite.

If we are able to bring those two things together, physics and apprenticeships may be able to help each other out.

Perhaps we can help to cancel out those negative stereotypes.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: That is a very good point.


Ms Longmuir is right; the negativity is coming from both ends of the spectrum, if that is even possible.

She makes an interesting point on the adults being the influencers.

The tendency is to ask young people why they are not do- ing things better or why they have not fixed what we did wrong.

We should actually be talking directly to the people who are influencing young people.

That is a good point.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Absolutely.


Schools are obviously incredibly influential.

A lot of young people say it is the most influential sphere in deciding what they are going to do with their lives after they finish education.

We are really keen to take an education first approach rather than a physics first approach so we are looking at whole-school equity and inclusion.
There is no point in building a beautiful and inclusive physics classroom if the rest of the school is not a safe and welcoming environment.

That whole-school approach is key.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: That is very interesting.

In her statement, Ms Longmuir said “approximately half of physics-related jobs do not require a degree, making further education and training a valuable and underutilised tool in the closing of the skills gap”.
Will Ms Long- muir speak about the type of jobs and sort of training that workers will undertake?

As she said, the stereotype is such that someone thinks if they are not a professor of physics, then they are nothing in the physics world but the Institute of Physics’ statement completely bursts that myth.

One can work in the world of physics, apparently, but not have a degree.

Not a lot of people would know that.

Will she speak about the types of jobs and on-the-job training people are do- ing?
Is it about utilising new modern technologies like virtual reality headsets and that kind of stuff or is it more classroom-based?

How is that working out, in a practical way?

5 JETE Ms Fiona Longmuir: One of the big sectors for Ireland in these more technical, physics- based roles is the manufacture of medical devices.

It is a huge area for Ireland.


There are also more emerging industries in which there will be apprenticeships for jobs that do not currently exist in the next five to ten years in areas like quantum technologies and green energy.

I saw in last year’s Generation Apprenticeship report that we have our first dedicated green energy ap- prenticeships in wind turbine technician maintenance, I think, which is fantastic.
We have these thriving sectors already but we need to make sure the voice of industry is heard in these growing and emerging sectors.

That is where we really want employers to be interested in apprentice- ships and make it clear that the apprenticeship route is a valid one into that kind of job.

As to the actual on-the-job training, I do not have that information.

It probably depends on which employer you go with.

Employers have quite a lot of power in designing their apprenticeship to fit their needs.
It probably depends on which apprenticeship one undertakes but we hope they are making use of this amazing developing technology.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: I would have thought it would be.

I was trying to get a picture in my head.

If one is going to say, they are the stereotypes and they are over there but we are going to look at the reality, it is helpful to know exactly what it is, practically speaking, that people do.
Will the witness speak about the role the Institute of Physics could potentially play in building apprenticeships and building the apprenticeship landscape that will be responsive to the chang- ing needs of employers?

As Ms Longmuir said, we will train people in apprenticeships for jobs that do not yet exist.

That is kind of mind-blowing in its own way but it is true.
The emerging green technologies and apprenticeships that will go with them will build sustainability, resil- ience and all of into the economy.

It is important.

Will Ms Longmuir speak about the role of the Institute of Physics?

Does she believe there is scope for further industry collaboration in apprenticeships?

What areas in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, and physics does Ms Longmuir think would benefit from more apprenticeship routes?
Are there areas she thinks would be ideal for an apprenticeship but nothing is happening?

Is there scope for expansion?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: I certainly hope so.

In our role at the Institute of Physics, we would be delighted to be a convenor of those physics-based businesses.

It is so important that those businesses are heard and shape the apprenticeships.

The consortia-based model that appren- ticeships are moving towards puts employers very much in the driver’s seat.

That is a posi- tive move.


We would be delighted to convene those businesses and identify priority sectors in which apprenticeships could make a real difference or emerging industries in which Ireland has the potential to be a world leader.

If we can harness those opportunities and develop these skilled workers quickly, we have the potential to seize a real opportunity for Ireland as well as for our employers and apprentices.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: I agree with Ms Longmuir.


The role of the Institute of Physics as convenor in that regard is interesting because it brings both elements.

The consortium model puts employers in the driving seat, which is not always 100% a positive thing but there are a lot of positive elements to it.

The potential for expansion is there.

I guess that we have not reached the peak or anywhere near it in terms of medtech.
I am sure there is scope there and, as Ms Longmuir said, in emerging technologies as well.

To return briefly - I will keep an eye on the time - to point No.

4 on page 2, the Institute of Physics described breaking down stereotypes.

Does that mean going all the way back to primary school?

Is that where it starts?

My sister is the principal of a very large DEIS school.

They focus on bringing people in to teach the kids that these jobs are available.
There is a big 6 11 October 2023 focus on apprenticeships, even at that age, and the “can’t see, can’t be” concept of seeing people from their community to see what can be done.

Does Ms Longmuir see that starting at primary level?
If so, other than showing them someone who is a physicist or working in the physics area and then they can go off and be them, can the curriculum be designed, even for very young children, to encapsulate that kind of learning and put them on that pathway before they even realise they are going on that path?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: That is absolutely right.

We have to start with primary school.


Re- search has shown that students start to be influenced about what kinds of subjects they can take from the time they are about seven.

If you are going into a group of transition year students and asking if they have ever thought about doing physics, you are way too late.

The choice is made; so many people have already dropped off by that point.

It is vital that we engage with primary schools.


In terms of the curriculum, it is not necessarily that in primary schools they have to name, “I am doing physics” and “I am using these concepts”.

At that age, it is about sparking wonder and encouraging curiosity.

That is another area in which whole-school equity plans could be really useful.

The purpose of our work is not to jam everyone into doing phys- ics, but it is to make sure everybody who would like to do physics has the opportunity.
That is where the whole school comes in.

It is about making sure every single student in a school has the opportunity to follow the path right for them, whether that is physics or not.

We hope some of them will choose physics but that is not the core of our work.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: It is about exposing kids to a range of options.

I am conscious of the time.


I am delighted that our witnesses this morning are 50-50 but that is not true of the in- dustry and - the witnesses will know - it is not true of the area.

There are a lot of very gendered stereotypes that relate to physics, science and STEM.

Apart from having 50-50 representation at panels and for our witnesses, I am right to say it is gendered in its nature, I think.

Is it getting better?

I can see that it has improved but it is by degrees.
Is it the witnesses’ understanding that the gendered nature?

That is before we even get to the class nature and everything else; we can park that for a minute.

Is it the witnesses’ understanding that this is improving to the point where we will see that kind of gender balance in a couple of years or in decades?

Dr. Michael Kyle: It is definitely getting better.

One of our aspirations is that girls will make up 30% of the uptake in physics from 16 to 19.
To go back to the previous point about the education element in primary schools, the head of the Institute of Physics in Ireland was at the Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Sci- ence inquiry into the future of science, technology, engineering and maths.

The report came out with ten recommendations.

One of those was that there should be a STEM education module within instruction for primary school teachers.

It seems there is some recognition of that.


It was really good to hear that.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: It is very positive.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: On the girls point, things are getting better.

They are not getting better anywhere near fast enough.

There is a whole generation of young people who cannot wait ten years for us to fix this.

It is vital that we start making progress faster.


We are parking the----- Deputy Louise O’Reilly: I do not park it as a general rule but for the purpose of the con- versation, we can put it to one side.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: It is a really important point that the Deputy raised.

The last thing 7 JETE we want to do is replace a bunch of straight, white, middle class, able-bodied men with a bunch of straight, white, middle class, able-bodied women.
We need intersectional approaches but I know that is not what the Deputy was----- Deputy Louise O’Reilly: I take that point.

I was just trying to home in on that one.

It is vast.

It is made up of a number of elements.

Dr. Michael Kyle: A lot of girls-only schools, for example, do not have a physics teacher.

That is quite common.

An Cathaoirleach: Which level of schools?

Dr. Michael Kyle: Secondary schools.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: Girls-only secondary schools.
Dr. Michael Kyle: I think 21% of secondary schools do not have a physics teacher who can teach up to leaving certificate level.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: Is Dr. Kyle saying it is more likely to be an all-girls’ school----- Dr. Michael Kyle: More likely.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: -----on balance?

Dr. Michael Kyle: Yes, on balance.


Deputy Louise O’Reilly: If we were to put another lens on that to take in DEIS schools and disadvantaged communities, we would probably see them over-represented in the----- Dr. Michael Kyle: Absolutely, yes.

It gets worse when those elements are factored in.

One of the Institute of Physics’ aspirations is that we should have a secondary school specialist for every single school in the country.

That is one of our top priorities.


Once that problem is solved, more girls will enter the subject.

That is key.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: Exactly.

If there are more of us, we will change the world.

Deputy David Stanton: I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation.

It is very interesting.

When we dig down into it and start looking at what the institute does, and I congratulate it on its work, it is very impressive.
I notice that there is a huge amount of information on the Institute of Physics’ website.

I spent a little time going through it last night and again this morning.

The Institute of Physics has a programme, Limit Less, which is very interesting.

I will give the representatives the opportunity to tell us a little about that.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Limit Less is our campaign to bust those stereotypes that are prevent- ing 16-year-olds and under choosing physics.
As I mentioned, we are choosing to influence the influencers in that regard.

We are looking at where those messages are coming from, where young people are hearing that physics is not for them, or they are not the kind of person who studies physics because, unfortunately, it is still a very common message we hear all the time from the young people we engage with.
It is almost a two-pronged campaign where we are dealing with the biases and misconceptions that young people face, the biases and misconcep- tions around physics, and where those two things intersect.

We are looking at groups that are particularly under-represented in the physics community and trying to make sure they have the opportunity to engage with physics, if they would like to.

8 11 October 2023 Deputy David Stanton: I like the way it is structured.
There is even a section, Limit Less for political audiences, which is very focused.

The institute is based across the UK and Ireland.

I also noticed it has a lot of grants and supports available in this space.

Quite a number of them seem to be based in the UK.

Will Ms Longmuir tell us about the ones that are available in Ireland, which the institute is using to promote physics and support people involved in this space?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Absolutely.


The grant programme in Ireland is less developed, as the Deputy remarked upon.

We are a fairly new team in Ireland so we are still getting our groundwork in.

Grants and things like that are a part of the solution for this kind of thing.

It is something we will continue to look at.

Deputy David Stanton: The ones available in England and the UK are quite impressive.

I am interested to see what will happen here.


Deputy O’Reilly spoke about primary schools, and the importance of introducing children to physics and science at primary level and to what is now called science, technology, engineer- ing, arts and maths, STEAM, education.

It has gone beyond STEM.

Could we start even earlier than that, at nursery, kindergarten and playschool?
A dad rang me up one day, and again Deputy O’Reilly alluded to this, who said he wanted to send his daughter to a girls’ school to do girls’ subjects.

That encapsulates where we at with stereotyping and the mind-set.

Specialist physics teachers across the board were spoken about, as well as a course in DCU.

How many participants have gone through that course?

Dr. Michael Kyle: The course is on its third cohort at the moment.

I am doing it.

I had better be careful.


I am here representing the Institute of Physics.

Approximately 50 people are doing it in my year.

It is a two-year intensive course.

Taking the three years together, it will create 100-plus teachers, which is very good.

It is very innovative and intensive.

What we need after that is a structure that includes continuous professional development.

After the course, there needs to be a community or ecosystem built around it, but it is very promising.
Ms Fiona Longmuir: We are looking forward to engaging with the new support service for teachers on that community-building aspect.

I will return to the Deputy’s earlier point.

I am delighted he brought it up because we think we should be starting in nurseries.

Even looking at things like toys that young people are given to play with, those gender stereotypes start to creep in so early from those very young ages.
Again, the aim is not to have them say, “I am doing physics right now and here are all these physics terms that I know”.

It is just about young people being continuously told that all op- tions are available to them and they are not limited by their gender, race, ability or anything else.

Deputy David Stanton: The toys that we buy our children or babies have an influence.

The girls get dolls and the boys get Lego or Meccano or whatever it is.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Correct.


Various bits of research have been done on this.

It bears out that building and making toys are predominantly bought for boys.

Deputy David Stanton: The Institute of Physics has a number of reports, one of which was to do with female role models in STEM from 2020 to 2022.

Will the witnesses talk a little about 9 that report?

What were its outcomes and findings?

JETE Ms Fiona Longmuir: Was the Deputy looking at the Improving Gender Balance report?

Deputy David Stanton: Yes.


Ms Fiona Longmuir: This report was undertaken in both the UK and Ireland.

This is where much of our work on whole-school inclusion came from.

We found that only in a school that embedded inclusion across the board did we see a real, meaningful change.

That report was the foundation of the work we are doing now in the Limit Less campaign.

We are now taking a slightly broader view in not just focusing on gender, but it was a real foundational piece of work for us.
Deputy David Stanton: I am interested in what the Institute of Physics said about appren- ticeships being made attractive to women and disabled learners.

We have done a lot of work on disability, including learners from minority ethnic backgrounds and those from disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds.

Representatives of the Open Doors initiative were before us re- cently, which I am sure the Institute of Physics is aware of, who are working in that space as well.

How is that particular work advancing?


Ms Fiona Longmuir: I have been encouraged by the work the committee and the Depart- ment have been doing on apprenticeships, particularly in making them more inclusive.

I am delighted that it seems to be a high priority.

In all the communications about apprenticeships, inclusion is foundational.

I am delighted to see that.

As we scale the apprenticeships up, it is just a case of how we make sure we are not baking in those stereotypes.
A lot of the time poli- cies can be put in place and there are systemic issues, but it also about being aware of those kind of underlying, sneaky stereotypes that sneak into things.

When we are scaling up and talking about apprenticeships, it is very important to be mindful of making sure they are inclusive.

It is obviously at the front of people’s minds, which is very encouraging to me.

Deputy David Stanton: My time is almost gone.

I ask the Chair to indulge me.


The Insti- tute of Physics also has a section on the use of Irish Sign Language, ISL, which is fascinating.

It is great to see the Institute of Physics focusing on that area.

It references about 5,000 people who use ISL as their first language and so on.

The Institute of Physics has done a project on that as well, the ISL STEM Glossary project.

Will Ms Longmuir tell us a little about that?

It is very interesting.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: I would love to.


The ISL project was one of the projects that made me want to work with the Institute of Physics.

I saw it on its website and thought it was an amazing project because it is meeting the specific need of a community that is being disenfran- chised from the science community and making sure it has a language to engage with science, technology, engineering and maths.

It is a project that is being run out of DCU.

The first phase is now complete.


We now have a video glossary of a number of STEM terms.

Approximately 200 physics terms are on the website that previously did not exist.

Previously, teachers would use different terms so a deaf or hard of hearing student moving through his or her education might have a teacher who used different signs for multiplication, for example, which meant that student would have to learn a new sign every time.
Some of the more scientific language did not have an existing sign at all.

The purpose of this piece of work was to bring together those signs that exist, such as sun, star and moon, and to develop agreed signs for those words that did not have agreed signs previously.

It is a piece of work I am very proud to have been a small part of.

10 11 October 2023 Deputy David Stanton: I thank Ms Longmuir.

I could keep talking about this all day.

Deputy Matt Shanahan: I thank our guests.


It is a wide-ranging area.

I had the misfortune to study physics in secondary school thinking I was going to do mechanical engineering but I ended up in a course that was all about maths, which I hated.

I will raise the matter of the learning background for physics and the curriculum, particu- larly at secondary school.
My own kids are going through that stage at the moment and I get the impression the situation is still the same in that physics is seen as a maths-like subject and people who are not into maths would not even dream of touching physics.

That is reflected in its take-up.

That is just one area.

Have our guests engaged with the Department of Education on the point they were making about trying to change the perception of physics?

The role of specialist teachers and ongoing teacher training are key.
I am going back a good few years but when I was in school, we never had a dedicated physics teacher.

People who were teaching maths were trying to read the curriculum for physics and teach it.

Many of them probably did not have the interest in the subject and that played out in the results.

I do not get the impression the situation has changed very much.

Where are our guests with the Department in trying to convert it to a new way of thinking about physics as a subject?
Ms Fiona Longmuir: Engagements with the Departments are still quite young.

We are hoping to engage more with the Department.

The Deputy’s point about maths is well taken.

Physics is perceived as being a maths-like subject, as the Deputy said.

It is perceived as being an especially difficult subject.

There is a lot of anxiety around maths in young people from a very young age.

Maths and physics, relatedly, are seen as subjects people are either good at or not, unlike other subjects.
They are not seen as subjects that students can learn and improve at.

It is seen as innate but, of course, that is not true at all.

People improve their maths skills all the time.

The anxiety around it sometimes prevents others from doing so.

It prevents them from engaging and thinking perhaps they could do it or give it a go.

That is a very good point.


Dr. Michael Kyle: To build on what the Deputy said, physics is, of course, dependent on maths but the thing about maths is that it is about failing and failing until you succeed.

That is what I always tell young people.

I tell them not to be afraid to have a go.

There is often a reluc- tance to try to solve problems, for example, because you may not get it right first time.

It is mat- ter of failing until you succeed.


Once kids get that idea into their heads, there is a sea change.

Maths, and particularly physics, are more about concepts than getting it right.

There is ab- stract reasoning involved.

There are conceptual maps that need to be embedded in kids’ minds rather than just getting a calculation 100% right.

That has to be imparted to the students.

It is important and very often that has not been the case.
Of course, getting the right number is extremely important but the concept is probably more important.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Thinking about the curriculum, Dr. Kyle is exactly right.

That is the important thing.

A subject like physics teaches a way of thinking.

It teaches problem solving, critical analysis, data analysis and things such as that.

Deputy Matt Shanahan: We absolutely need specialist teachers because teachers do so much to motivate and influence students.

I will raise a couple more points.


The first relates to the STEM route and more appren- ticeships and craft working.

Our guests are probably well aware that there are now far more opportunities for people to go on to third level.

We have a kind of hangover, compared with 11 JETE places such as Germany, whereby apprenticeships are seen as a lower opportunity.

They are seen as more for manual labour.


College, no matter what you do and what degree you get, is seen as a better path, which it absolutely is not if we look at earnings in the economy at present and where apprenticeships can bring people, particularly with onward education.

In respect of integrating with industry, our guests have highlighted the low number of apprenticeship pro- grammes available.
What can we do to try to stimulate people to understand there is a pathway here and apprenticeships can bring them into very successful careers and provide expansive job opportunities?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: My understanding is that apprentice demand from people who want to become apprentices is outstripping places at the moment.

It is outstripping the number of employers we have.

Scaling up the number of employers we have is vital.
I hope the Institute of Physics will be able to play the convening role we talked about earlier in identifying those sectors and businesses within those sectors that might be interested in apprenticeships.

We run up against the stereotypes we have talked about and I am sure that businesses are affected by those stereotypes too and think that an apprentice would not work within their businesses.

We also know that a lot of industries do not consider themselves to be physics.
I often meet people who tell me they do not employ any physicists.

I will ask what they do and be told they do robotics.

There are these interlinking stereotypes coming together to make physics apprentice- ships a bit of a nightmare.

We must engage those employers and industries to show the value of apprenticeships.

It is about learning on the job.

It is the perfect mixture of more academic-style learning and on-the-job experience.
All employers could benefit from an apprenticeship model if they were creative about how to implement it within their businesses.

Deputy Matt Shanahan: If our guests are talking to the Department, they should mention that kids should be going into industry far sooner.

They should be going in as first and second years even for a short while just to see what the industry space is like and the opportunities that are available.
The elephant in the room as we develop in this area is artificial intelligence, AI.

It will im- pact not only on the understanding of physics but also the ability of people to rationalise and problem solve for themselves when the problem can be given to a computer.

Our competitive advantage over the past 20 or 30 years, in particular, has been the quality of our education and the ability of our people to go out and achieve in many spheres.
It seems that AI might be the great leveller, in that it will allow everybody to have access to the same information and out- puts.

Where do our guests see the challenges?

There are obviously huge opportunities, without a doubt, but what are the challenges for Ireland Inc. in trying to harness that AI and not be left behind?

It is obvious that other countries are moving ahead far more quickly than we are here.
Ms Fiona Longmuir: The honest answer is that we do not know how AI is going to shape the years to come.

It is becoming an increasing area of interest and an increasing concern.

I would bear in mind how we are talking about AI, because people probably talked that way about the Internet.
Each emerging technology feels frightening until we understand it and we do not understand the opportunities and limits of artificial intelligence sufficiently at the mo- ment to make a confident prediction as to how it will go.

What I find interesting about artificial intelligence is that it represents an area where that false binary between science and the humanities is shown to be false because the sciences are going to be vital in harnessing artificial intelligence.
At the same time, the humanities will be able to do things such as media literacy, which will be increasingly important as artificial intel- ligence gets more sophisticated.

12 11 October 2023 Dr. Michael Kyle: There is a big question about the regulation of AI.

We are beginning to realise with the Internet and ICT in general that we need more regulation.

We now need to think ahead.

We know what happened with the Internet.


We now need to decide how we are going to regulate AI, if we are going to do so, and that sort of thing.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: We run continuing professional development, CPD, sessions for teachers and the first this term was on ChatGPT.

It is hitting the teaching community already.

Teachers are already interested and asking for support to manage how their students are inter- acting with ChatGPT.
Deputy Matt Shanahan: I imagine they are getting some great papers from ChatGPT.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Papers that all look strangely similar.

Deputy Richard Bruton: I am sorry I missed the start of our guests’ presentation but I have read the material.

If there are a lot of unfilled posts or posts that are difficult to fill, what is in- dustry doing about creating the environment for people to go into apprenticeships, in particular?
There are now 80 apprenticeships in place but only 20% are newly formed apprenticeships.

It does not seem that industry has got on board with creating hubs through which people can take up apprenticeships.

It is the old traditional apprenticeships that are scooping the pool.

I do not think that is because of a lack of interest among potential applicants.

It is that there is no central hub.


One of the most successful apprenticeships has been in financial services, where the as- sociation has created a central hub, so people make one application and do not have to find an employer or know someone.

Is that happening in the sector?

Equally, transition year, TY, is a great opportunity to gain access to young people who are still at a pretty formative stage.

Has the sector developed a TY programme?


In my experience, many kids are just scrounging around looking for something.

They come into my office, where I am not sure they learn much about physics.

The reality is that if we want to have an influence, there is a golden opportunity for a group to get together and create a programme that will take on X hundred TY students.

It should not be too difficult to organise.

What can be done?

How can we operate collectively?


I do not believe the Department of Education or Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment can do it on its own.

I am interested in knowing the delegates’ sense of what is happening in the school system.

Trying to attract women to STEM subjects has long been pursued and there are some very ac- tive people trying to promote them.

How is this going?

Are we seeing an increase in women taking up STEM subjects?

What about assessment and the curriculum?


To what extent is “teaching to the test”, which is still narrow enough and memory based, killing the scientific spirit, which could be much more creative if the structure were not quite so rigid?

Is there scope for making this area more attractive?

One of the objectives of leaving certificate reform was to create an apprenticeship stream that would be much more solid and respected.

I do not believe that has been achieved yet.

How do we create it?


Having physics teachers or people with experience would help but I think the matter is more profound than one that requires teaching a few teachers to be physics oriented.

From the delegates’ experience of countries that are way ahead of us, are there things we could be doing in the school system to make the subject matter more accepted such that the mammies and daddies of Ireland will want to see their kids involved?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: I will deal with the point on employers first.
The Deputy is absolute- 13 JETE ly right that we need to be engaging with employers on a much bigger scale.

The apprentices are available but the opportunities are not.

We would be delighted to offer support in any way we can to get the employers.

Deputy Richard Bruton: Is there a network or an emerging network that the State could interact with?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Our apprenticeship strand is actually a fairly new strand of work.

We are starting to engage with that community now.


We consulted with physics-based businesses as part of producing the “Solving Skills” report, and we hope that will have been the beginning of a conversation, not the end.

The employers are vital in managing to scale up the apprentice- ships.

I agree that TY is a brilliant opportunity to influence young people’s choices.
It is a great time for them to consider practical skills and to get practical experience in a way they may not have in the rest of their schooling.

It is a great area to consider.

The great thing about being at an early stage in a project like Generation Apprenticeship is that we have the potential to set it up well from the beginning.

Thinking about where we are reaching young people and about the messages they are getting in the vital-choice stages is really important.
What was the Deputy’s final question?

Deputy Richard Bruton: In the school context, it seems we are full of aspiration to create a strong apprenticeship pathway, but are we slipping on the route?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: This is an area where we have to look outside the physics classroom.

The Deputy is exactly right in saying it is all well and good having a great physics teacher but that this will not solve the problem of how to get young people into apprenticeships.
We need to consider the likes of career guidance and make sure career guides have a good grounding in all the available areas.

It is very easy to teach what you know.

All teachers have come through the academic route, so they are probably less familiar with the apprenticeship route.

This is improving, in that teachers and career guidance counsellors are starting to talk more about ap- prenticeships.
Having something like Generation Apprenticeship, with one source of really good quality information, will be of great help to the career guidance counsellors.

Deputy Richard Bruton: Does Ms Longmuir want to comment on the curriculum and as- sessment?

We put back classroom-based assessment again because of the potential influence of artificial intelligence.

I am not sure that it destroys classroom-based assessments, but can we do more?
Dr. Michael Kyle: Artificial intelligence can be a valuable research tool but it must be managed properly, in the same way that you look up an online database of journals for articles.

There is a way to do it but we are still in the early stages.

To address the Deputy’s three questions, I believe there were three elements to what he was asking about.

The first was about a hub.

I see that there was in the budget an allocation of fund- ing for expanding further education and training colleges or centres.
I believe ten have been set up in the country.

These could comprise an ideal platform for the provision of apprenticeship training, particularly in physics.

I did notice that in the budget----- Deputy Richard Bruton: One needs someone to act as an aggregator of the opportunities.

That is what is missing.

If you have to knock on a hundred doors, you are not going to bother.

14 11 October 2023 Dr. Michael Kyle: That is correct, so what we need now is infrastructure.
We need those people who are willing to set up the courses and the colleges themselves and to include physics in their apprenticeship offerings.

The second question concerned teaching to the test.

There are many more teacher tests but they are very much particular to the teacher.

Sometimes a very passionate teacher will get across the wonder of physics.

The whole thing about physics is that it is a wondrous subject.

To get that across is a bit hit and miss, is it not?
I have noticed that applied mathematics has been overhauled.

It is very much linked to physics.

It is a type of physics, really.

It used to be classical mechanics, a very niche area of applied maths, but now it has expanded to include many exciting new areas, such as networks and statistical processes.

In applied maths, the way of assessing has been changed.

Deputy Richard Bruton: I was one of those soldiers who battled in the old system.
Dr. Michael Kyle: The other element of the Deputy’s question was TY.

I have been asked by a school whether I could carry out a project for the TY students.

Therefore, this does hap- pen but there needs to be a lot more of it.

The school has asked me whether I could carry out a project to enthuse its students to study physics in their transition year.

TY students are often at a loss as to what to do.

An Cathaoirleach: We will move on to round 2.

Anybody else who wants to contribute again may do so.
I thank the delegates for the presentation.

It was really informative.

The consensus among members and the representatives is that we should get rid of the stereotype surrounding apprenticeships.

In a previous role, I launched a few documents on apprenticeships, the need to get more people involved, and getting rid of the unfortunate stig- matising belief of many mammies and daddies that apprenticeships are not the best route for their children.
In my area of Limerick, a company called Carelon has teamed up with a local secondary school to do STEM projects.

It has committed not only to giving the school equipment but also to fixing it when it goes wrong, giving training on it and working with TY students.

There are many such companies.

Carelon has done a very good job and Johnson & Johnson is doing something similar.
It would be good to develop this initiative in a way that employers would drive it a little more rather than having just a few companies involved.

As Deputy Bruton said, somebody looking for an apprenticeship should not have to knock on many doors.

What I pro- pose would entail approaching just one to see what is available.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: In answer to one of my questions, it was said that there is scope for the Institute of Physics to become a convenor for businesses.
Can the delegates talk me through how that would work?

I can see how it would work on a semi-formal basis.

Formally speaking, does the institute have the resources?

Would it need more?

How would that work?

As the Chairperson points out, there is possibly a lot of this happening.

Transition year is a very good example.

A good point was made by Deputy Bruton.

Students often arrive at transition year and wonder what they are going to do for the year.

That is not to say that good work does not happen.


It does, but there is much time that could be used too.

On how the institute would act as that convener, does it have the resources?

Would it need more resources?

Do the witnesses see it as something that can develop over time or that indus- try would fund?

How will that work?

15 JETE Ms Fiona Longmuir: At the moment, I would say it is a more informal network.
It is busi- nesses that we have engaged with in various areas of our work which are willing to speak to us on a number of issues.

It is definitely a more informal network at the moment.

If it was to become something more formal, I think we would require some resources.

We are quite a small team in Ireland.


The Deputy has touched on something really interesting, which is that so much good work is happening and so many businesses are engaging with their local schools, send- ing kids out for work experience or sending people into schools in the same way that so many organisations are doing great work on STEM inclusion.

It is quite a disjointed sector at the moment.

It is a busy environment.

It can be difficult for schools, for example, to know what is available to them.
There is potentially a real role for Government in making it clear where a school can go if it wants to engage in this kind of project or needs support in this area.

The problem is not that these organisations are not there.

People are doing fantastic work but schools do not know where to find them.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: It would be a great pity if something good is happening that could be scaled up and is not being replicated.

There is a clear role there.


I always like asking this question because it is like copying someone else’s homework.

Are any countries doing it right and which have a standard that we could aspire to?

Significant good work is going on and there is significant goodwill.

One can even see that here.

There is no hesitation or reluctance to embrace the potential.

Does Ms Longmuir see the point I am making?


If it is being done well somewhere else, can we not take what that place has done and try to replicate it somewhat?

If we are ahead of the curve, I feel a bit sorry for the curve.

Perhaps there is good work being done somewhere else that we could replicate.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Absolutely.

Something that we have found in our research of vari- ous different systems is that world class education systems have a couple of things in common.
There is a commitment to inclusion across the board from a very young age.

That early inter- vention for these kinds of things is key.

Subject-specific continuing professional development for teachers also comes through quite strongly in world class education systems, where teachers are able to engage in a creative and ongoing way with their subjects.

That improves teaching outcomes and teacher retention.

That comes through really strongly.


I do not have information on the various systems for apprenticeships that are in place to hand but those two things have come through really strongly in our previous research on education systems overall.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: On the underrepresented groups, we touched on one, which is obviously women, but a large range of other groups are not represented.

Part of that is to do with the stereotype.


It would be remiss of us to sit back and just say there is a bit of a stereotype.

Practically speaking, what can be done?

We are talking about targeting early years education at areas of disadvantage and targeting those who are not included yet and trying to bring them in.

It goes back to convening the industry because in order to be able to progress, particularly for apprenticeships, it tends to be more job focused.
If one is talking to people in a disadvantaged community, one needs to be able to show them that path.

I do not think we are there yet but, as I said, there is plenty of goodwill.

Regarding how that would be done, do the witnesses see the Department of Education as leading on this or is it the witnesses in a convener role, bringing industry all together, or does everybody have to drive it?
The witnesses know and I know that if it is everybody’s responsi- bility, it is nobody’s responsibility and nothing gets done.

Who will drive this and make a real difference, particularly for DEIS schools, disadvantaged areas, socioeconomically excluded groups, and persons with disabilities?

If everyone is in charge, nobody is in charge.

16 11 October 2023 Ms Fiona Longmuir: Absolutely.

That is a really good point.


There is no silver bullet for this kind of thing, especially when we are talking about differing disadvantages and intersect- ing disadvantages.

Different groups experience barriers in different ways, so the solutions will look different.

The Institute of Physics would love to see the Department of Education mandate these whole school equity plans.

We think that is foundational.

We do not want these to be a prescriptive document that gets stuck on a website.
We do not want to write a document that schools put on their website and never look at again.

We want to encourage schools to think about their community, students and teachers, what works for them, what specific barriers arise, and how we can combat those.

There is no one answer, but if I was pressured to give one an- swer, that is our top priority at the moment with schools.

Deputy Louise O’Reilly: That is where the institute starts.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: I think so, yes.


Deputy Louise O’Reilly: That is the foundation.

Dr. Michael Kyle: If the Deputy is looking for a concrete example, while it is not in the schools area but the university area, we are talking to a university at the moment which has an access programme.

It would get people who are potentially interested in law to come into the college to do a moot court or have an indication of what it would be like to be in the legal system.
Deputy Louise O’Reilly: A kind of introduction.

Dr. Michael Kyle: We are talking to the university and want to get it interested in doing something similar for physics.

There is interest.

That is one particular example.

Deputy David Stanton: My hand is up because I was a guidance counsellor in a former life, a long time ago.

I discovered then that the witnesses are right and, from what they say, it has not changed much.
The perception of physics was that it was a difficult subject and maybe not a very interesting subject for some.

When children come into first year in second level, they do science, which covers all the sciences across the board.

The number choosing physics as a subject at the senior cycle was usually small enough unless the teacher they had at junior cycle was particularly inspirational and had a leaning towards physics.
Has the Institute of Physics any engagement with the Institute of Guidance Counsellors?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: We are definitely hoping to engage with the Institute for Guidance Counsellors.

It has such an important role to play.

The Deputy is absolutely right.

We were at the Higher Options conference the other week.

I would say that more than half of the questions were from young people saying they really love physics but were worried they would not get a job.
That is not the reality at all, so that message is obviously not getting through.

To address the Chair’s point about businesses engaging with schools, the more that we can do to strengthen the link between business and school, and between what students are learning in the classroom and their real world applications, the better.

Deputy David Stanton: I think most of us attend the Young Scientist and Technology Ex- hibition.
I go for an injection of positivity, because there is so much negativity, especially from our media, and it keeps me going for a couple of weeks.

Merck in my area in east Cork has a mini-young scientist exhibition with secondary schools each year, which works well.

Are there other examples of that happening around the country?

17 JETE Ms Fiona Longmuir: Absolutely.

We work with an organisation called SciFest which runs science competitions throughout Ireland.

That is a big and growing programme.


It has more participants this year than it had last year, which is fantastic.

It works with primary schools and secondary schools, so there is a whole school experience, which is great.

Really young ones are getting to engage with it in the same way that more experienced young scientists are.
Deputy David Stanton: On its website, the Institute of Physics has a report entitled, Inves- tigating the factors affecting science subject uptake and student engagement with Junior Cycle Science, (2019-2021).

Its project lead is Dr. Regina Kelly from the University of Limerick.

Is that research available publicly?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: I do not have it to hand but I can definitely look into that and see if we can provide it to the committee.
Deputy David Stanton: I would be quite interested in looking at that.

Earlier, I mentioned people from minority ethnic backgrounds and disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds.

Again, people feel that physics is difficult.

Has any work been done on the results in the leaving certificate?

I know we have grade inflation at the moment, which is another issue.

Has work been done on the results of the leaving certificate, pass rates, failure rates and so on?
When many kids are picking their subjects, they want to pick something they think they will succeed in to give them points and go on to third level.

Is that a factor in this as well?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: I think it is.

It is definitely part of it.


One of the things we do at the Institute of Physics each year after the leaving certificate is that we convene a group of teachers to review the paper and give feedback on whether the paper is a fair summation of the course and whether students would find it overly challenging or appropriate given the lessons they have taken.

We provide feedback after each leaving certificate examination on the paper itself.
Deputy David Stanton: I notice that there is also an Institute of Biology and an Institute of Chemistry.

Has the Institute of Physics linked up with them?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Yes we have.

We would like to do some more but we recognise that we are all pulling in the same direction and face a lot of common barriers.

Many of the barriers we are highlighting here are not specific to physics or STEM.
They might be particularly acute in physics but these are issues that are facing young people across all subjects.

Deputy Matt Shanahan: I will return to the issue of integration at university or tech- nological university level.

I am particularly interested in where the technological university sector is going.

In Waterford, where I am from, we had Waterford Institute of Technology, which is now the hub of the new South East Technological University.
We have three scientific gateways down there - the Pharmaceutical and Molecular Biotechnology Research Centre, the Siemens Institute and the Walton Institute, which the witnesses probably know about because of the work it is doing in quantum computing.

Since the Institute of Physics is both Irish and UK-based, it probably has a voice in terms of trying to integrate in the university sector.

These institutes are always trawling for funding.


It is always based on competitive applications and it is really more about the Government position of putting in strategic funding to drive the re- search base.

Members of this committee attended a talk from the Advanced Materials and Bio- Engineering Research, AMBER, Centre, a research group based in Trinity College, last week.

The centre has a wide area of researchers collaborating but, again, it has difficulties in getting money.
What role can the Institute of Physics play in trying to signal the importance for both Ireland and the UK to drive investment because we are essentially in the same research hubs 18 11 October 2023 and the importance of investment, driving it at that end and how that can create the pathway to bring in more careers at the school side?

Dr. Michael Kyle: One thing we can do is to help to get people together to talk and to con- vene meetings of the interested parties.
The Deputy mentioned quantum computing----- Deputy Matt Shanahan: Can the institute do that?

Dr. Michael Kyle: We do that.

The Deputy’s colleague asked about guidance counsellors.

We have a guidance counsellor head in one of our meetings.

We get people together to discuss things.

There are upcoming meetings.

We are developing a strategy called Blueprint, which is a research and development blueprint for Ireland.
There is an opportunity there to get people together so that could be a forum where we get people interested and, therefore, opportunities arise as to how you investigate different levels of funding and collaboration with the UK and other countries.

Deputy Matt Shanahan: I think the institute has a platform and a voice that perhaps a lot of people in the research community do not have.

The next issue I will touch on is the circular economy.
Deputy Bruton might speak to this as it is a particular favourite of his.

It appears that it will have to be a very big area and you imagine that there will be a lot of aptitude there for people to get involved from the physics end to trying to turn something into something else or reuse it.

On its website, the institute mentioned trying to target the disability sector and allow- ing people to find a pathway.
A lot of people might have a physical disability but their cognitive skills are made for this kind of area.

Could Dr. Kyle speak to the institute’s work with regard to the disability sector and whether it is targeting reusing and recycling as a policy when it looks at the circular economy?

Dr. Michael Kyle: Definitely.


One of our main planks programme-wise is the green econ- omy so we are actively working on a report looking at the state of the green economy and look- ing for good candidate companies to be contributors to that report so we are actively involved.

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Regarding the Deputy’s point about the disabled community, the purpose of science is to serve society and it should serve all of society.

You cannot do good science by looking at a small pool of people.
We have seen countless examples of this where you get a very small sample size that shares the same demographics and your findings cannot be applied to society at large.

It is for everyone’s benefit to be able to engage with science but it is for society’s benefit to have everyone engaging with science.

There are a number of under- represented groups within physics that probably map to being under-represented in other areas of STEM and other academic subjects.
There are some overarching programmes such as the inclusion plans we spoke about that, hopefully, will improve things for everybody but different groups do face different barriers and it is important to consider that when we think about inter- ventions that might be appropriate for them.

It involves considering the specific needs of the communities you want to work as we are designing programmes.
Senator Ollie Crowe: The opening statement did a very good job of outlining the eco- nomic impact of the physics sector and the huge growth potential in that area.

I do not think this is widely known.

Do we need to do a better job of communicating to primary and secondary level students the opportunities that are available, particularly in career guidance?

If so, do the witnesses have any recommendations as how that could be done?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: That is really important.


The link between the physics they are 19 JETE learning in the classroom and the jobs that are available is not there at the moment based on the conversations we are having with young people.

They are not seeing physics as an opportunity that will open lots of doors for them and lead to these high-productivity high-paying jobs so we must draw this link.
Careers guidance counsellors have a significant role to play in linking the classroom to the real world and the subjects you enjoy in school to the career you might go into afterwards so they will play a significant role.

We developed a careers resource that is available on our website.

We also have physical copies at events we go to that outlines 12 people who took leaving certificate physics who all went into very different paths.

This is a small contribution we are making.


We are giving ca- reers guidance counsellors that resource to say physics is not necessarily what you think it is.

We have the engineer and the academic in there but it also involves things like medical physics and meteorology.

Sectors like finance and computing draw massively on physics graduates so it is about making the variety of doors that physics can open for you better known.
Dr. Michael Kyle: The extent of physics in industry and jobs is very much unknown.

Be- lieve it or not, one in 20 jobs directly involves physics.

Something like one in ten jobs is in physics-based industries so there is a mismatch between this and the knowledge students and the education system have of it and, therefore, people are not probably prepared enough for those industries so there is work to be done in advertising and making sure more people know about that.
Ms Fiona Longmuir: Our head of team brought up this issue at the meeting of this com- mittee he attended earlier this year.

If you are a biologist or a chemist, when you go into your career, it is likely that you will “bio” or “chem” in your job title but this is not the case with physicists.

We go under a thousand different names.


I mentioned earlier that I speak to compa- nies that tell me they do not employ any physicists and it turns out they are working in lasers, robotics or advanced computing so it is not just found in careers guidance.

It is found within business as well and the institute needs to be better at drawing out that physics link and making it clear that these skills that are so sought after are physics skills.
Senator Ollie Crowe: Once it has been recognised, hopefully we can be corrected.

Are there areas or careers that would be well suited to the apprenticeship model for which no ap- prenticeships are in place?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Absolutely.

Some are being developed that feel really promising.

I think an apprenticeship is being developed in cybersecurity, which we are delighted to hear.

That will be a real growing industry.


There are many practical areas of physics for things like semiconductor manufacture, quantum technologies, financial technology and so on.

There are real hands-on elements of that.

It would be really beneficial to do that kind of academic learn- ing alongside that on-the-job training.

There are many sectors in which it would be great to see apprenticeships being developed.
Senator Ollie Crowe: From my point of view, it is obviously far more common these days for people to switch between different careers than they traditionally did, where people did the same job forever.

That is not the case now.

Is the physics sector seeing that happen at a similar rate to other industries?

Could we do a better job of communicating to the people that it is pos- sible to do this with the appropriate upskilling?

Ms Fiona Longmuir: Absolutely.


It is quite rare now that people enter a career and stay in that career for their entire life, until they retire.

People jump around.

I think that is really ben- 20 11 October 2023 eficial for physics because it teaches so many transferable skills.

If someone has one physics job, it opens up many opportunities in other sectors.

We have not really touched on life-long learning today but I think that will be part of the solution too.
The majority of the workforce for the next 20 years have already completed their mandatory education.

It is important to engage with that community too to upskill and develop these new skills for these new and emerging sectors.

Senator Ollie Crowe: The opening statement highlighted the need for broader inclusion.

How does Ireland compare with other countries in this regard?

Are our guests aware of any other country having success with this issue?

If they have, what methods have they used to get there?
Ms Fiona Longmuir: There has been a fair amount of research on the different approaches to inclusion and to increasing representation within education and certain subjects.

There is no single clear answer but the research that we have seen and undertaken ourselves builds the foundation for the limitless campaign that I talked about earlier.
That is where we get the whole school approach from because that has been shown to work and to be much more effective than piecemeal interventions in certain subjects or with certain groups.

One wants the whole school to be a safe, welcoming, empowering and inclusive environment that teaches students that they can pursue any path open to them.

That comes through very strongly in our research.

Senator Ollie Crowe: I thank Ms Longmuir.

An Cathaoirleach: That concludes our consideration of this matter.
I thank both represen- tatives from the Institute of Physics.

Their enthusiasm is clear from their contribution.

The committee will consider this important matter further.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.53 a.m. and adjourned at 11.08 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 18 October 2023.

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