Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697742856470.pdf (Guyana)
1355 Members Present LEGI8LATIVE COUNCIL Estimates, 1945 185'1 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL erara-Essequibo).

The Hon.

J.

B. Singh, O.B.E.

(Dem­ The Hon.

Peer Bacchus (Western Berbice.)

Thm·sday, 14th Decembm·, 1944.

The Hon.

J. W. Jackson, O.B.E.

(Nominated).

met at 2 p.m .. the Hon.

The Council E. G. Woolford, President, of the President, Governor, who presided presiding O.B.E., KC., Deputy in the absence His Excellency the Sir Gordon Lethem, K.C.M.G., at the evening session.

The Hon.
The Hon.

T. Lee (Essequibo River).

The Hon.

A. M. Edun (Nominated).

The Hon.

V. Roth (Nominated) .

The Hon.

C. P. Ferreira (Be,rbice River).

PRESENT: The Clerk read prayers.

The Deputy President.

O.B.E., K the Hnn.

E. G.

.C., (New Amster­ Woolford.

dam).

The Hon.

the Colonial Secretary, Mr W.L.

Heape, C.M.G.

The minutes of the meeting of the held on the 13th December, and circulated, Council as printed for confirmation.

1944. were presented MINUTES The Hon.

the Attorney-General, K.C.


E.0.

Pretheroe, M.C., Mr.

The Hon.

the Colonial Treasurer, Mi­ E. F. McDavid, C.B.E.

In the The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: first line on page 3 there is a clerical error.

I move an amendment substitution Treasurer" Secretary."

of the words "The Colonial for the words "The Colonfa• by the The Hon.

J.

A. Luckhoo.

K.C.

(Nomi­ inated).

Amendment put, and agreed to.

The Hon.

J. I. de Aguiar (Central The minutes as amended were con­ Demerara).

firmed.

Tl).e Hon.
firmed.

Tl).e Hon.

H. N. Critchlow (Nomi­ nated).

ANNOUNCEMENT.

The Hon.

F. Dias.

O.B.E .. (Nomi­ The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hi� nated).

Excellency of the afternoon .

may be here during the course The Hon.

M. B. G. Austin, O.B.E.

(Nominated).

ORDER OF THE DAY.

1945 ESTIMATES The Hon.

Percy c. Wight, O.B.E., Central).

( Georgetown ,· ,...,,.

The Hon.

J.

Gon!

'lalves, 0.B.E., CGeorgeto.wn South).


The COLONIAL TREASURER: 1 itself move that the Council Committee consideration int.<' resolve for the purpose of resuming motion:� of the following 1357 Esti'niat,es, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Comm,[itteie 1358 That this Council approves the Estimates of Expenditure from Revenue during the year ending 31st December, 1945, which have belen laid en the to be defrayed table:- The COLONIAL SECRET ARY sec onded.

Question put, and agreed to.

COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE.


The COLONIAL TREASURER: It was proposed to resume at ''Head E!lu cation" but I very much r egret to a sk permission to recommit Head X-" Fire Protection"-which was completed last night, in order to make one sma~i amendment.

Leave granted and Head recommittecl FIRE PROTECTION.

Item 20i--Purchase of Tra.iler Pump for New Amsterda1n fire Brigade, $864.
being The COLONIAL TREASURER: When t he Head was considered last night I should have moved an amendment to that item to increase it by $260 in order to provide for the freig·ht on this equipment.

That amend ment is printed in the Appendix to the Supl'Jlementary Explanatory Notes, and I regret I did not move it at the pro per time.

I beg to move that the itam be increased by $266 and the amount carried out at $1,124.

Question put, and agreed to.

Head agreed to with consequential amendment in the total.
EDUCATION Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO: May I l,e allowed before you per~it any discus sion on the· Head to make a few prelim inary observations on th e estimates as printed'/ The CHAIRMAN: Yes.

to consid~r cause much inconvenient e Mr. LUCKHOO: Before aski~g ho11.

the Members of Council estimates under the Head of Education I desire to express •regret that I was not in my seat last evening, and I hope that my a1bsence on that occasion did to not His E xcellency who was present and to other Members of Co1uncil.
I was detain ed in another County and did not return until a very late hour.

In mov ing the favourable consideration Qf the estimates under this Head-Education - I desire t o point out that it may be thought that this Department is cost ing GQvernment a great deal of money, for on reference to Appendix "H" on page 48 one will observe that in ] 934- the decennial period-the cost was $377,550 while the estimated cQst for next year is $1,353,104, almost four fold, but there are many reasons for that increase.
First of all, a substantial increase is due to the revised salary scales of Teache,rs in aided schools, a !mm app.roximating $401,643 which is to be .found on page 14 of the :petai!s of Expenditure on I do not think that any Member of Coun that cil will say anything against expenditure, because there has been for some time a consistent clamour for Teachers to be paid better salaries and, after a great deal of discussion over a period of two years, His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies has given his approval to the revised sal ary scales as proposed by this Council.
l°,f this Apart Department has expanded a gr eat deal and there are several items under the list of expenditure in the estimates which had to be provided for in view to of the fact that consideration had be given to men lower down the lad der this pa,rticular Department.
And I want to tell the Council at the very beginning th at the Committee of t his Council on Education has always kept an eagle's eye upon the lrise of expenditur e in this Department, and I can only say that nothing we have 1one Th., has been done Director of Education and hy, 'lble -the Deputy Director , !1:we assistant, injudiciously.

this Head.

from tha,t, the work in ~ .359 E stirnates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
-Co,mmittee 1360 clone their bes,t du,ring the course of this year to keep the estimates down as low as possible.

has now salary the year Hon.

Members will notice t hat under item 1 (a) •'The Director'' is put fown at a sum of $4,320, but the :ion.

the Colonial Treas urer will teH yo.u ;hat his been :evised and placed at $4,800 under the :::ivil List which has been passed by ;his Council.
During the :::hief Inspector of Scho,ols and Asaist mt Director of Education has had his :alary increased to a sum of £800 per the mnum or $3,840, as ~stimates fo,r 1945.

As I said b efn:·e, he work of this Depa,rtment has ncreased and it necessitated a trained ,erson, apart from t he I nspector of to be an officer of high ;chools, that ·ank.

Hon.
Hon.

Members will notice nstead of a Senior Clerk for the :oming year the estimates pro,vi de ·or a Chief Clerk, who has to keep in laily the H ead of his ) epartment and who has a great <hal ,f work thro.wn upon him in thesa imes.

touch with shown in is The Clerical E stablishment .hown above the line.

Previously, at some ·of the Cieri-cal Assistar.ts east o.f: vere under the line, but in view he fact that they will draw a higher becomes pensionahfo, alary, which hey have been placed a bove the line.
,o also are the three Junior Attend .nee Officers who this year are below he line but who are now sh own at tern 1 ( i) a bove the line on the E sti nates.

The Cle,r ica!

E stablishment has ,een increased by a personnel of four.

'his year it is eleven and next year ~ will be fifteen.

No doubt h on.

lVIem ~ rs will observe on to ''K'' attached to ~ppendix t he Esti aates at page 14 that provision is made or an .
Assistant Maste r at $960 per .nn um, and that h as been due to the xpansion of the Ag ricultural pro p--amme of the Government Training :ollege for Teacher s. It was approved y Le-gisla tive Council Paper, No.

20 of 944, as show!)

on the Notes to page 1-1 reference of the Estimates.

On t hat very page hon.

Members will observe that under Personal Emoluments ''Aided Schools'' call for $811,960 and " Colonial School:,'' for $44,076.
I may point out that substantial increase has been due to t he fact, as I have said before, that the salaries of Aided School Teacher.3 have been revised and increased.

At page 15 of the Estimates hon.

"Children's Break Members will find (a) Purchase of food fast Centres"- stuffs, wages, etc., $13,685 and (b ) New Amsterdam and other Centres-.

;tc, be carried out at $.66,720.


On reference to the Note to page 15 it w ill be :ieen that (a ) is carried out at that figure to give effect to the scheme for provi- .for a greater sion of better meals number of school children in Geqrge town, and (b ) is the provision made for New Amsterdam and other Centres.
sub-,'head "Miscellaneo.us," At page 16 of the Estimate~ uncler the items 29 and 30-Grant to the Ber:bice High to the for Boys and Grant School Berbice High School for Girls- pr~vis is made for the increments ion for the Staff and for the salary of a Teacher of Domestic Science.

I take it that during the course of this dtlbate hon.
Members will urge, as I myaelf feel disposed to m~ge, that the Berbice High Schools for Boys and Gi1·ls should be controlled by Governm,~nt rather t h an the members of th e Staff b'!ing- under the contro.l of a Body which, however well meaning, cannot give for the Staff adequate salaries t h e work they a r e performing in the town of New Amsterdam.
Those schools are the only recognised Second ary Schools there, and it seems to m·~, speaking for myself and other M~m ber s. justi that this Council w ill be fied the notice of Gcwernment that these schools sh ould be under the cont rol of Government and be that provided -cbe staffs.

should t h~ metnb~r-s of adequate fo~· in bringing salaries to 1361 Estiniat,e'S, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.
-Cor,vmittee 1362 At page 17 of the Estimates, ''British Guiana Scholarship-Allbw ances to scholars, $5,900,'' I hope that soP.1eone will provoke some discussion t hat item, because I feel t he o,n t im2 is ripe when one British Guiana Scholarship per ann um should be open to girls only_ In the past we have had the Scholarship for boys and, I think, now that the field has grown wid.ar a for Scholarship should be earma-rked a girl and not to be awarded to a boy; if it it must n ot be awarded to the bQY who may be next in order of merit.
I ask Your Excellency's permission to mention t hat during the discussion of these Estimates.

and I do s~ in order that some conside ration of this suggestion may be given by Members of this Council.

lapses So far as page 18 is concernell- to I feel that 3ome ''Queen's College'' - other Member who h appens to, be a member of the Board of Govern0rs will be more competent to speak upon this Head than I, and I say the same with respect the Bishops' High School for Girls.
T hose are the mai:1 points as they a ppear on the E stimates for discussion, and I v.:ould invite t h is Council not to deal harshly with this Department because one can hardly show vis ually the success of such a hrge department.

It is only time that will tell, ~nd now th at we have, as I suppose we ought to, a body of conte!1ted 'T'0 <ich ers.

I ho,pe t h ey w ill give all their the time and attention in promoting t h eir interests of thos e who attend -respective schools.
With t hose few words, sir, I ask leave that the ·esti.., mates under Education b e considererl.

Mr. LEE : I would like to speak on the policy aclovted by Government.

I would like, as I said last year, the Adviso.ry Committ~e to carry nn their t-a,:isk ::1.nd to w,,+,.J-i the uroceerlinir~ in ,res·p ect of the policv adopted bv Gov- ernment.

But I would like to point out tn this Government that the policy adopted by the Advisory Committee an d Government.

is short -siirht.ed.


1: i ~ all well and good to give the Teachers salaries on which they can be contended they have accommodatior1 but.

unless for the pupils and unless they have the necessary equipment wherebil' they can carry out their work, that payment to Teachers will be a waste of the Colony's money.

I want to point out to Govern ment t hat unless the Advis~ry Board bring their weight to bear on the Gov ernment to have the sch ools equipped- - The CHAIRMAN: The hon.
Mem ber would not mind me asking him to refer is speaking of the Body which is known as the Education Committee1 to a particular Body.

He • Mr. LEE: Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN: It is not a Board.

Mr. LEE: It is not t he Education Advisory Committee.

but the one of which Mr. Luckhoo is Chairman.

Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO: I am Chair oj: the Aflvisory Committee of man this Council on Education.

in is responsible Mr. LEE: That is what I am the Board.

The thinking of, not of this hon.


Member r:oun cil fo,: t-he F.d ucation policy and from hi,s address to the Council on Educati@ for which I am very thank ful, on behalf of the children I say to him as Chairman of that Committee to press upon Go,vernment the neces sity to provide adequate equipment in the schools.

I know that several parents cannot afford to buy books for the children to b e properly taught by the the Teachers.
You T each ers, but if you do not g ive them the equipment to apply thei,r training 1 then t h e nolicy i" '10thinis at a]J ; it is a waste of money by this Government, that I urge upon the membets of Committee to oress upon · Government to have the schools properllv equipped.

~s unless that is done it would be a was•te of the Colony's money _ Further the .
Advisory Committee s?ould nress upon Government that there should b e more Attendance Officers a ppointed in train and pay 1363 Estima.tes, l!l45 LEGISLATIVE douNcit.

-Committee 1364 I said, and order that they should go around the t he districts and not only to gQ to schools.

Last year I r epeat it again, that more Attendanca Officers should ,be appointed t0i go into the several districts anq.

see the number of children who are not going to school.

They .

can do that if they liw in t he districts.


I am talking of my .

::on stituency.

I know several of the chil d r en to schoQl.

In the Island of Leguan several children do not go to school and when they do go the acco,mmodat10n in the sch ooJ is not sufficient or adequate.

That is my grouse against the policy adopted by Gcwernment on the advice of t he this Committee.

You start at top instead of laying your foundation and building from the bottom.
The policy of good salaries to the teachers and going there not are · and of adequate accommodation equipment in the schools should go to gether so as to obtain efficiency and good results.

Do that and within five years you will see the r esults.

I ur ge upon Government t hat these Attendance Officers should be appointed in the sev eral districts to go to the parents of the to child ren of school-going age and ,point out to them that they should send thei,r children to school.
It may be said that we have the Criminal Law to enforce the attendance of children at school.

What is the use of enfor cing t hat when the parent s have not certain things for the children t0i assist them in their work at school?

They prefer not to send them to school and tQ pay the fines to Goivernment.

That difficul~ ty can only be remedied by the Attendance Officers pointing o.ut to those parents what wrong is being J one them the children in not sending to sch ool.

Some hon.
Some hon.

Members may to have attended the Courts when several parents were the t aken Magistrate tried to preach the doctrine of force.

That is n ot the method to be adopted by a democratic Government; it should be one of per.m asion and educa tion of t he people.

there and is like I would Government schoo-ls?

Is the policy of the Government or the Committee lead ing towards that?

If not I would ask the Advisory Committee to reconsider its policy.
The Chairman knows that a section of the island of Wakena.am has fo-r a Government been clamouring to know School, and whether Government taking any steps in fulfilment of that request.

If it is not, then I say that Government is n ot doing its duty towards the people of this country.
There is no doubt that -Governm ent schools have proved successful, and under the able direction of the Director of Education they have shown the benefit to be derived from the control of education by the Ed uca tion Depart ment.

I suggest t hat the Advisory Committee should carry out that policy and extend it to the whole country-not confine it to the populated villages.
My next point is that the repr,rt of the Franchise Commission shows that there are many illiterate persons The m odern tendency in this Colony.

is to educate such people.

In all demo cratic countries t he Government has assumed the responsiibility fo1· the edu cation of such people so t hat they might read newspapers and pamphlets, issued by Government and listen to s,peeches on the radio.
I am not saying · that some of t hose people cannot do so now, but it sh9uld be the policy of t h e Gov ernment to educate them.

What has the Advisory Committee recommended to Government with respect to t lie edu0 cation of sugar illiterates on It is the Committee's duty to estates?

advise and the Governments duty to see that illiterate people are -educated in some vvay.
In a certain country, fo:· every 100 persons who ar e illiterate there is one person appointed to teach them, and it would be very profitable to this Colony if Government adopted a similar policy.

In a few year s we would be able to remove t he stigma of illiter acy in British Guiana.

the What has Government done in the matter ·of converting those schools intQ The next point is t hat I would like to have a definite decision as re,gards the 1365 Est-i-mates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.
-Comt iittee 1366 erection of a new Queen's College.

What I am a is Government doing about it?

member o,f the Old Bo-ys' Asso-ciatio-n and I hear of this and that being done, but I would like a public announcemeut about what is, being done.

Government is very dilatory in its policy as regards secondary education.

Othe,r Colonies are getting grants for secondary educa tion.

What is Government doing as regards pressing for similar grants?
this if the cost is $550,000 and Even Colony has to bear $275,000 of it while the balance is provided as a grant from the Colonial Develo,pment and Welfare Fund, I am sure every Member would vote the money and the work could be started.

My ''No.''

He ought t.o realize the benefit he has derived from secondar y education.

friend says l Mr. de AGUIAR : None at all.

have not been favoured with the second•· ary education to which the hon.

Membe1· to be a, primary referred.

scholar.


I happen Mr. LEE: I do not knc,w whether my friend went to Queen's College or not.

Mr. deAGUIAR: I have just said I went to no secondary school ''No."

at all.

The CHAIRMAN: remember that Mr. de Aguiar left school at a very early age.

I Mr. LEE : That is why he does not realize the value of secondary educa tion (laughter), and why he says ''No" to an expenditure of $275,000.
I am asking Government to declare its policy and to say whether it has made a pplica t ion for a grant towards the erection of a new Queen's College.

Sooner 01· later the Berbice High School will be Is Government providing a expanding.

playground for the students who, will be I would ask the attending that school?

Advisory Committee 01· the Board of Governo,rs what are they doing about They must think of the future it?

otherwise money is being thrown away.


The Carnegie Trade School ha~ is Govern success, but proved a ment thinking of extending its oper ations to the several districts, instead of confining them to New Amsterdam and r:ertain parts of the East Coast?

I am appealing to the Board of Governors t.o extend the work to the various districts.

J know it would cost money but in five years' time the results would be com pound interest.

I would like to know lvhether any ?


])plication has been made to the Comn troller for Development and Weffare in 1.he West Indies for the erecti.on 'Jf If 1rn primary schools in the Colony_ application has been made I ask that that steps be taken in direction.

It is also necessary tha1; houses be erected near the schools fo'.· the head teachers.

Are we asking: fa-,· grants for that purpose'!

immediatkly the that of The COLONIAL SECRETARY : Thti answer,s to the hon.
Members's num0 erous questions have been most ably given by the Chairman of t he Advisory like to say Committee, but I would straight away what the position is as regarcls Queen's College.
The position is that the Governor in CQtmcil consid ers two !schools-the for Girls and Bishops' High School Queen's Colleg&-the Bishops' High School should have prioriti in that the existing building is ver y dilapidated; plans have been prepa,:·ed, a new build ing can be erected on the existing site, 2.nd much of the material is available.
As regards Queen's College the site is available but the plans are not yet pre 1 pared, for the rea.son that the Director of P ublic Works was originally asked to , prepare a plan for a school of 300 pupils,.

which he did.

He was then aske::!

by the Governing Body to prepare a pla;1 for a school of 400, which he did, and later h e was asked by the Governing Body for a [)irecto-r of Public Works has g iven an1 estimate of the cost today to build in local material a school of 600.
The prepare plan to 1367 Estimates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Co·inrnittee 1368 a new Queen's College to accommodate 600 pupils, and the way he got that esti mate was to add a proportion to t h e for 400.

It was urgent t hat plan ·-Ne should get some estimate as soon as possible.
With the consent of His Excellency I have written to the Comptroller for Development and Welfare a nd told him t hat we must first build the Bishops' High School because we can do that as so.on as he and his advisers agreed to the plan.

As r egards the cost of t he new Qu een's College I have given to Comp tro!

!,er a figure which is not far short of that quoted by the hon.
Member ~nd stated that when he could g ive us an idea of how much he was prepar ed t o contribute, and in what form, we could reach a decision.

That is how t h e mat it is being actively ter stands, a nd pursued.

Mr. DIAS: This i;; a very enter tai ning discussion, and 1 have listened to it with great interest, especially the l•pening speech of the hon.

Member on the other side of the table.

Some people are inclined to t hink that becaus<> one criticizes the Education vote he is opposed to education.
Others who are mor e sensible do not take that view.

It is quite open to anyone to say whether he agrees with the esimates as presenc ed, or to suggest something which he thinks would produce t h e results which In my the estimates aim at achieving.

view this Colony is at the present moment, and under the conditions I p ro pose to, wasting a consider able sum of money on education, and I will say how.

Are the children getting the benefit of the education which these estimates seem to aim at providing'?
Merely giving children the teaching we pay for is not sufficient in my view.

1 have always maintained, and I still maintain.

that the,re 1,houlrt be alongside of these estimates a propoRal by Gov the atmos phere in ernment to purify to refer in all sizes.

which the children live from day to day.

Look at their homes.

Their conduct is reflected in th eir frequent-in fact daily visits to the Magistrate's Court.

One I have.

lived sees them tenement !


!ext to them myself-those rooms where foul language is used in the presence of children most of the I have heard all sor ts of t hings time.

from them.

I have seen children pass ing my office on thei r way from school, and one could h a rdly believe that they had come from school, because the lan guage they used was not taught them in schoot They lea rn it in the surround.

ings t h ey in which, unfortunately, lived.


I wou ld like to see t h is vote reducea by half and the other half spent in clean ing LIP t hese tenement yards and g iving people respectable dwellings.

Clean up the homes so that children wo uld not hear bad wcrrls, and let the teaching ai: home go together with the teachin g ao school.

As long as things continue as th ey are today t his Colony will ibe ruined as far as education is concerned.
Chil dren are entitled 1.c, be educated and to get all the State can g ive t hem, b ut i•t is no good wasting money by teaching them on the one hand a nd not looking af ter the homes in which t hey dwell after leaving school.

fa there a Mem her who c:an contradict what I say about what happens in these tenement yards?

I lived next to one and the tenants woke me at 5 o'clock in the morning with vul garity.
What is the State going to do; just vote money for education in the I s that all t he State primary schools?

is going to do?

What wou ld we h ave been if in our own homes we heard the vulgarity these children a r e compelled to hear?

Let us place ourselves in their position.

We wo uld not have been in the position to crit icize them.

I do ask Government to consider this a spect of the problem.

I a m prepared to support any estimate :for the purpose of educat in_g children.
We cannot spend too m uch to bring up good citizens, but unless WP , 1369 .

EsUmates, 194t 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

- Commi'.ttee 13to make arrangements for purifing the at mosphere in which those children live we will never get the benefits we are seeking.

How Government has been so blind for so many years I do not know.

l do not grudge one penny of this esti that Goverument it.
mate, but I say wasting money because the children are not getting the benefit one expects mem to derive from this expenditure on edu cation.

iVlr.

EDUN: Somehow I am a product of the primary education given to me by my country, and I am proud of it.

Somehow I have also acquired a .Knowledge of other languages, such a s Urdu, Arabic and Hindi, and I am proua of those languages and their literature.

In those days primary education was on I have not entered i:i. solid foundation.
the door o.f Queen's College or of a sec ondary school, yet I think I should 'lot be ashamed of myself as a product of the primary education given me by my country.

There was an incident in my life which I shall never forget.

It oc curred in 1910 when an hon.

Member of this Council, who is still here todav, thought it fit to hand me a Public Free Library ticket into my hands.

It 11as Sesame of knowledge of men, the world :md things.

That hon.

Member happens to be the Second Nominated Member, the Hon.
Francis Dias, and I want to thank him today for having put that Library ticket into my hands.

It has brought me the success I have achieved I do not think he so far in my life.

recalls the incident.

I feel that if our primary education could st art from that, point, on the solid basis.

I would be content to support the policy as adum brated today by the Education Depart ment.

I do not think I need apologize for repea,ting myself on educational mat ters.
We approved in Finance Com mittee, and subsequently in Council, of increased salaries for teachers, which I t hink they deserved, but I think they were contingent on the promise of th,~ lmpenal Government to erect schoou; 111 the rural ct1stncts-to provw.e more a(;commoaat1on anct equipment.

lJn suc11 a. founctauon we cou!a buuct up healthy l am ot the opnuon that tne c1t1zens.

present policy o.f the ~ctucation Depart ment 1s very gooa maeect, but I agree with the non.
Nommated Member (Mr. Dias) that something more ou,ght to be done to save our children fr.om the bad influence of thei1; environment and of the cinemas.

The American films which are shown here ought to be cen sored and restricted.

I cannot say more than that .

in foundation, and I want to vote e·Jery penny askQu for in tnis estimate becau:se 1 am noprng to build citizens like myself from the primary education tins system I say we are building on an Golony.
excellent I think the Education Department should have my blessing at this period.

From 1945 1 expect the Department to do better.

There is need for better text-books.

l do not consider the West Indian Readers the best kind of books .for the primary schools.

I remember reading the Royal Readers, the Century Readers, and the Graphic Readers.

They were excellent books, full of intellectual thought, and something w.orth while reading.
I see enough cheap trash in the present text books to make my heart sick.

I am &sking the Chairman of the Advisory Committee to examine these text-books.

On a previous occasion the Director of Education, in reply to my speech, said that Government was examining the possibility of adult education, a sub ject which is closest to my heart.

Un fortunately, the pioneers in that direc tion are not the democracies, as my friend the Member for Essequibo River (Mr. Lee) stated a while a,go.
Adult education originated from an ideology other than that of the democracies that o.f the USSR.

There is nothing wrong in following the good example of I am asking in all ea,rnest anybody.

ness that now that :they are getting 1311 P:stimates, 1945 LEGISLATiVE COUNCIL.

-Conmiittee.

1372 more money the teachers should put their s houlder s to the wheel and endeav our to educate the youth of the Colony for better citizenship.

that for children.
that for children.

the educat10n of lashed out against do;11e at by Government Mr. JACKSON: It goes without ,oaying the .

::hildren of this ,Colony is dear to my ;/ieart, and whatever efforts are made 1.0 carry it out on proper lines must have ::,o far there ha:; my hearty suppon.

been no violent criticism o;f the educ;i. tion policy of the Colony wor thy of note.
'l he rambling, ranting statemems of the Member for Essequibo River (Mr. Lee) puzz\ed one to decide whether to attack him or to point OUL his mis takes.

He the education policy of Government which he said is initiated by the Advisvry Committee on Education, and he spoke of no effort being made to equip the schools and provide proper accommoda '!

'he hon.

Memoer t ion speaks without a knowledge of facts th~ and of what is being present in time the interest of Education.
He speak:; of no attempt being made to build the Government Schools Colony, and he uses that as an omis sion on the part of Go,vernment and the Advisory Committee, but possibly he is not aware that in connectioll with the Hammond's Report sug.gestions on those matter-s are being gone inti, and apart from the fact that there is no in tention on the part of Government to build Government Schools all qver the Colony-and that has not been sug gested by the Hammond's Report-the hon.
Member seems no.t to know that efforts are being made to improve the accommodation the schools and also to improve the equip ment.

So far as accommodation is · con cerned and the repairs to buildings, there is a sum vo,ted each year for that purpose, and already some of t he worst schools reconditioned.

been That is evidence of Government's wish that the children should be educated in pleasant surroundings.

So far as equip- ment · of the schools is concerned, if t he for children have o.ver a ll in hon.
Member had been fo.llowing the trend of events and had been visiting the schools in the Colony he would have seen that there has been consider able improvement in the equipment of the schools.

He wil.l notice that from a grant each year s uitable benches and desks are provided, and the children of the present day a,r e working under im proved co,nditions as compared with the children of t he past.

to I would.

like to say al.so regarding the matter of accommodation in the scho,ols, if the hon.
Member were to the proper Authorities he apply would be put, pe•rhaps, in possessioa of the amount oif accommodation that hai, been provided during the past year and in the present year in order that the!·e might be increased accommodation for the pupils of the schoo.J,s.

T he hon.
T he hon.

Member refers to what he regret:; the fact that there are large numbers of children who are not attending school -and he suggests that roQre and mor e and yet more Attendance Officers should be provided and they should be in order made to live in the districts that more children would attend t!t-~ schooil,s.

I wonder if during the hon.


Member's visits to the various constitu encies in the Colony, as he had been in the habit of doing, he has ever spoken to the people and advised them to send I wonder their childr en whether he has ever performed the duties of an Attendance Officer when I visiting the various constituencies?

may mention the fact that in my own day as a scho,olmaster I have been my own Attendance Officer.
The• system then to my mind was very slow and I, as a teacher, made myself acquainted with the parents of 1 he child,ren attending my school and did my best in order to get the child ren into the school.

There were numbers of teachers in those ,fays who did the same.

I have as a matter of fact succeeded.

I think it is a mis take to look entirely on the Attend th e children to drive ance Officers into the schools.

At present there is to scho,ol?

1 1373 Estimates., 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.


-Co·1nmittee 1374 a system of Parents' Asso,cia,iions, a has been adopted all system which over the Colony.

We have the parents and teachers combining in the interest of the chHdren and meeting at regt1l2.r intervals and infusing interest in the work o.f P r imary Education among even those who do not send their chil t o school.
An organization of dren far that kind, to my mintl, will be the in persuading more beneficial parents to send t heir children to school than any number of E ducatiQir1al Offi cers.

In these P arents-Teachers' Asao ciations the handiwork done by the children in the scho,ols is made a very pleasant feature of their work and at the annual meetings t he work is ex~ hibited, 'is remarkable what excellent work is p rovided by the chil d-ren.

I do urge Members of the calibre of the hon.


Member for Essequibo River to visit the schools and see the real and practical wo.rk done in them.

It is all very well and good to come into this Council and make statements against t he work that is being done in the Primary Schopls, r eferring to them as not, being suffici ent, and not seei11g the results from them.

Let Members visit the schools and, I am positive, they .

will be satisfied that some soJid work is being done .
and it to which T·here is one m atter I would like to refer, and t hat is t he matter r eferred to by the ho,n.

N1,m inated Member , Mr. Dias.

No one regrets more than I do t he tendency on t he part of the children to co,py 1 he habits of the persons whom they meet on the streets and who poison t he at mosphere with foul words.
The chil the dren adopt what streets and in t he sordid s urrounding<; where unfor tu nately they live, and l do f eel, sir, that some solid work can be done if efforts are made t o remove the evil by punishing sever ely the me:1 and women of lewd tongues and habits, sending them ·where they cannot be seen and heard by others.
But with to the tenement houses wher e regard the children ar e forced to live at the present time, th ere is certainly a pro- they hear in that the s ordid su rroundings ject to pr o,vide better housing coudi rn the ru1·al cllstr icts.

l::$ut, s u·, tions Rome was not built m a aay, and all thmgs cannot be acc~pi1sne_:.i these overnight.
I am positive that once #e a-r e satisfied-and we are all satisfe<.l - 111 which the childr en move and live h a,ve a det r imenta~ effect upon their lives and character, and once that is r ec<0 g nised in pr ocess of time these placl~S and better housiP_,g will be r emoved It cannot conditions wiH prevail.

: oe said that t he system of.

Education l : _-; r esponsible fo,r these untoward condi- .

the tions.

It cannot be -said also that Teachers are responsible.
But this I do know that efforts are being made no.t only by the Teachers but by brganiza tions to remove the evil.

These Youth Organizations· that are being formed are doing and will continue to do good work among the people themselves, and before long we will be able see the results of the efforts t hat are being put fo rward for the benefit of the child ren.
to The amount spenl on Prim,wy Education may be regarded as a lar ge one, but the r eason why it is attl·act ing t·he attention of those who feel the the Colony can har dly bear that burden of providing in it is because the past the Teachers did not r eceive sala,ries commensurate wi th the w'ork they had 10 perfoxm.
Now t hat the of Government h as been conscience certainly Government aroused, r ight in doing what is required, and t he fortunate position in which Prim ary Teachers are placed at present, 1 am sure, is the result of ha~·d work on their own part, on the par t of those who are inter ested in them, and on t he par t of those who have the inter est of the Colony at heart.

Let us spend money on Education and, I am posi tive, in the long run we will pat 0ur selves this direction.
for what we are doing in is Before taking my seat I would like tQ compliment -the h6n.

Membe1· lhe happy f or Essequibo River on 1375 Estirnates_.

1945 LEGISLATIVE CouNCIL.

.c.-Co1nmittee 1376 conditions in which he received his education.

I compliment him on being abie to, enter Queen's College so that he may have a secondary education, but I shali venture to say that there are run times when persons have through colleges but the college~ have not run thro,ugh them.
I would like to say further that in ou-r general method of approach, in our general dealing with matters that come up before us, o,ur general conduct and bearing in the here one can see the res ults of education we have -received.

Be that education primary or secondary or education from a University, it musL enter into, our l.ives and it must ani mate our actions in the right way and make us appear public not ob in noxious to anyone but ,rather pleasanl to.
those with whom we live and move and have our being.

I think, sir, that a tribute should be paid to Primary Education in this Colony.

I think, sir, 1hat those who have no,t had the bene fit of a secondary education and who have not ente,red Queen's College, as the hon.
Member for Essequibo, River, but who are in a position to convince the public and to convince this Coun cil that the educatio,n that they have received is woven in their lives and enables them to conduct themselves on proper lines in the different sphei·es of their activities, ought to be satisfied an d we ought to give credit to Educa tion in general, and as we live and move we continue to be educated.
Unless edu cation is seen in our lives and actions, •mless we have assimilated then the education to us h as been wasted.

it, l\fr.

LEE : I would like to reply to the hon.

cedain Nominated Member, Mr. Jackson.

remarks ma'.

:le by Mr. EDUN: To, a point of order!

Are we in Committee?

Mr. LEE.

We are in committee.

Perhf!P" the hon.

Member does not know the Rules.

I would like to po.int out to the hon.

Mr. Jackson and this Council that when in his yo,unger day the the hon.
Member used to visit _______ ,.

homes of the parents in order to edu cate and encourage the parents -to send their children to school, as he said, I was then the hon.

Member If remembers r ightly Mr. Boston used to visit my fat her's home in order to enc<;1urage my falher to send me regu larly to church.

child.

a Mr. JACKSON: I did not say in :ny youthful day.


I retired from active school teaching when I was sb .. -ty-two and a half years old, and I had been doing that from the beginning to the end of my teaching caireer, not only in my youthful days.

Mr. LEE: I am glad to hear that because it shows that the policy adopt ed by the schoolmasters who had the the chil th& education of control oJ dren in the past was a bett er pohcy than that adopted now.
They had thought it their bounden duty to see t hat the parents smd their children to school.

Aire they doing it now?

They are, however, receiving more money now.

My hon.

F riend knows, and thal only too well, that many scho,olmaste-rs are living in Georgetown and attend ing scho,ol on the West Ooast Demer era.

They travel every day t o and from school.

Can they encourage the parents ' to send thei,r children to school?

Mr. JACKSON: I rise to, a poi1,.t of correction!

The hon.
The hon.

Member sa.v~ there are many schoolmasters living in Georgetown who.

are conducting schools on the West Coast Demerara.

1 That or two, but there _are not many.

is not true.

There may be one ' Mr. LEE : I travel every morning by the ferry steamer and see them.

It can be seen and a check can be made.

At least my hon.

Friend does not live the in Georgetown and travel down the I meet them on Coast as I do.

stelling.

There are at least s ix of them.


I do not know, however; if they are in, charge of schools.

The pol schoolmasters icy adopted by the old proved successful.

If the policy ador,t ed by the Advisory Board is that .

;he 1377 Estimates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Cmmr(ittce 1373 parents be approached either by an Official of the Government or by the school.masters themselves, it would be the better policy to, encourage a better attendance at the schools.

I do not know whether my hon.


Friend is seri I ous and honest in his conclusion.

like him to visit the school at would Windsor Forest which •remains unfin ished and see how the chHdren have to attend school.

Is it fair to the chil dren?

The hon.

Member is Manager of the Frederickburg School.

Let him tell me that the children there a,re pro vided with books sufficiently be to in charge.

educated by the Master Many of the parents cannot afford to provide the children with clothing.
The Master may be ver y good and brilli ant but if the children a-re not pro vided with books how can they be edu cated?

telling this Government that the policy adopted by it is shorl sighted and one-sided.

You are p-rn viding desks and benches-all of whicn.

are absolutely necessary-which can not be provided by the Denominations because they have not the funds.
That say Government policy is why I school should be should be that each under Government control, the equip ment in the scho,ol should be adequate and the child•ren should be provided with books.

I am side of Then there is this other· thing, which is an eye-sore.

to Providence I go Court once a fortnight, and when the school on the opposite the road is 011t I see the children go inlo the canefields and take their break fast under the trees.
That is because the Government does not provide, The schools with proper amenities.

Masters of t he schools are not teach ing the children in the proper manner.

They are being better paid now and I am glad they are satisfied with their to pay.

Therefore let us.

gen down real work and get r esults.

I can take two schools in you, Mr. Chairman, to my constituency and show you how overcrowded they a r e. Whose fault is it?

It is not the Denominations because they have not the money.
It is Gov- -- ------------ - ernment's fault .

It is Government who should see that there is accommodation the schools .

It for the children m hurts t he hon.

Member because in his conscience he knows that the poi].icy of Government the correct one.

That is why I blame the hon.

Member, because he knows that what I say is the absolute truth.

is not is is It into known sevi ra1 divided• The CHAIRMAN: I wo,uld s uggest snould to the hon.
Member that he secure a copy of Mr. Hammonct·s Report on Education in the Colony and examine it.

I can tell him that for the past year or more a very wide Com mittee representative of the Denomina tions and private persons- religious bodies of all kinds and persons inter ·ested in educat ion- has been sitting those .frequently and examining all questions.

as · the Educational Development bommittee.

It sub Committees and all those questions raised by the hon.

Member require very careful consideration.


The hon.

Mem the ber must bear in mind that all buildings are the scpools kept formerly belonged to the - Denom inations.

Even if the Denominati011s are still clinging the buildings there should be some fonn of contn~l.

Dual control of the schooJs is a very vexed question, and it is being examined by representative Committee.

There are a good many subjects to be discussed.

think the hon ..

Member would mind me saying so.

The hon.


Member is sufficiently ~cquainted with the difficulties that Gove[·nment is endeavouring to overcome.

It lis a very big question that one can speak for days on.

Have you got Mr. Hammond's Scheme?

I do, not in which that to I Mr. going up so good, put?
LEE: When the estlimate is $1.000,000 and thin~s are not on whom must the plame be The CHAIRMAN : The Educational Development Committee during the two years has proposed 'to g ivz last free text books and free mea.ls to the 1379 Estimates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Cammittee 1380 school children in England.

It is not the case here because we never thought of it.

It is a very big question.

to ascertain Mr. J .

A. LUCKHOO: I think if the hon.


Member was keeping aib reast Qf the times he would have known that Government has applied for g,rants f1.1r new schools and that the Educat ion Department is carrying out a survey in the various parts 'o.f the Colony in order the number of children of school-going age so that the questiOill of building new schools or those alrnady in existence enlarging I do not know can be considered.

whether the hon.

Member has provided himself with Mr. Hammond''s Report.
If he has, I do not know whether he has read it or digested what has been there, as surely if he did he written could not have spoken in the heated way he did a moment ago.

I think if we discuss the matter in a calm and dispassionate way 'he would be a,ble to do something for the children of the Colony.

The CHAIRMAN: The hon.

Nomi nated Member, Mr. Luckhoo, has invited · discussion on the propo,sal to have a special British Guiana Scho1ar I have spoken myself on shi p for Girls.

it for many years.
it for many years.

feel that my views are wen known.

I think it would assist the Authorities if there is :iome expression of opinion as to ' the advisa bility of what is a very important proposal.

I Mr. GONSALVES : As the hon.

Nnminated Memher.

Mr. T.,ucl<:hon.

n<i.s said, the question 'of accommodation has engaged the attention not only of the Education Committee but also the Adviso,ry Committee and it has been ·dealt with in Mr. Hammond's Report.

I am not quite so ,sure the .


Director himself has not at some time or other dealt with the matter.

It is not correct to say the Committee has not been has anythin~.

The matter doing- received attention and it has bee·ri before Government.

The hon.

Memb•ff f o1· Esseonih" T?ivP~ ,:,l- t'hn verv com mencement of his speech said that the money voted for the increased salaries time when to Teachers is a waste of money because of things.
It those other seems unfortunate he did not stress that point at the the Council was asked to vote the increase of salaries and try to persuade Gov..: it ernment not to vote the money as would have been a waste.

Now t hat the money has been v0;ted I do not think it is right to come back now and say that it is a waste because of s0 and so.

In regard to the complaint made by the hwi.


Mr. Dias I think most of us agree that the behavio\[r of some of the children outside the schools is not all that is desired, but it seems to me that it cannQt be directly placeJ at the door of the Education Depart ment or the Education Committee.

Mr. DIAS: I did not blame the Committee or the Education Depart~ time I said it was a waste of ment.

teaching the children what is good- Mr. GONSALVES: I did not say that the hon.
Member directly blamed- Mr. DIAS: Directly or indirectly.

I Mr. GONSALVES: to be attacked for am not saying that the hon.

Member direc~ly indirectly blamed the Department.

air Now that we have a Social Welfare Organization I think that is the body which has the thing,s that exists-the condition of the behavi~ur of the children and loose the language we hear aibout City.
If the Police Department is not able to control it then it seems to me to be far more difficult for the Educa tion Department or anyone else to do so.

It seems to me that the Social Welfare Officers are the people f rom whom some help must be expected.

for gi-rls I support On the question of a sepa1~ate scholarship the suggestion.

I did sQ before the Com mittee and I do so to-day.


I agree also that it should be definitely laid down that in the event of a girl not reaching 138 1 Esti,nates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-ComrniMee 1382 schwarship standard scholarship should lapse and not be awarded to a boy.

the The CHAIRMAN: We are in Com mittee, and the hen.

Member mi.ght indicate what, in his opinion, should be the value of the schola,rship.

Gov ernment would like to know.


t hink the same va.Jue as Mr. GONSALVES: 1 it the should be of scholarship for boys.

It is possible ·chat a girl might like tQ take up engineer ing as a profession.

I do not thi.nk limitation of: there should be any choice, except where it is obvious that a girl cannot qualify in a particular branch of study.

Generally speaking I think scholar ship should be as open as that for boys.

the On the questio.n of the control uf the vote of the Department the hon.
Nominated Member has dealt fully I hope his that matter, and with statement will accepted.

Like be Mr. J ackson, I am a member of the Education Committee, and be-ing also the Advisory Commi ttee we have on an opportunity to revise any opini011s we may have formed on the Education In other words we have Committee.

had an opportunity to scrutinize these estimates twice.

Mr. LEE: On the question of a separate scholarship for girls I hear t ily endol'se the views expressed by the J10n.
Member for Geo,r,getown Soi.1th ( Mr. Gonsalves) .

I agree that it should be of the same value as the scholar ship for boys for, after all, the expen ses of a girl appear to be greater.

If she desi.res to take a deg ree at Oxfo rd she will have t o pay higher fees than !l boy who could go to.

another Univer sity where the fees are not so high.

But why shouldn't a lapsed scholarship for gir ls be awarded to.

a boy who is next in order of merit 7 I would like to ,remove the impres sion of the hon.
Member foJ.· George town South that I s uggested tb~t the that money spent on education lis being the wasted.

What I said was policy o;f the Government would cause that money to be wasted.

I do not say that the teachers are not deserving of the increased salaries, but if they work in a half-heart~d manner how can we get ,result s from the money expended ?

I have not a copy of the Hammond report.

but I will endeavour to get it as my one and rearl and digest friend s uggested.
Mr. deAGUIAR: The deb al e under t his head so far h as nQt been ver y I have much unlike other debates listened to in this Council many times before.

We have had the usual clamour for improvements in various directions, the fact t hat there has ½e'=n despite what I will describe as a condiderahle awakening in this Colony, patt icuhr ly in the last few years, on educatim1 questions.
On the o.ther side y,e h ave the usual criticism that the also had amount of money being spent on education in certain quai-ters as a waste of money.

:j'Ay own is that there is a lot to be said view on both sides.

It is true that so hr as ou r educational system is concerned there can be considera:ble improve..l ment, but I happen to be one of th0se see who would I !prog ress proceed slowly but surely.

agree is car l!ful planning of our expenditur e the ch::i.rl!
'e that is being levelled at Government that the money bein~ spent on educa t ion i,- wasted will be justified, that unless considered content there be to is accepted by I happen to be one of the mem beri=; of the Committee which con~idered the emoluments of teachers, and whose recommendations were contained in a Sessional Paper "l'hich was con~idered and this Counci~.

hut when I was considerin~ thP.

question l I havP.
question l I havP.

exuressec'l the view at the time- expressed it it s ince, ancl I express attain tod ay-that mv chief cpncern was the application of the recommeu in dation<\ "OntainPd l mention th at because I regret to fi nd that some of the things I thought of rPnort.

that 1383 Est.imates.

1945' LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Co11i111ittee 1384 levelled against is being wasted, at the time have come to pass, and it seems to me most regrettable.
H ere I would pause to say that if the charge the Go,vernment is that money ;;he instance I am about to relate furnishes abundant proof that there is waste, despite the fact that those recommen dations were put up in very goo.cl faith and with the best intentions in or der reasonable to provide fo r teachers.
One • of our biggest diffic:11- that question was being ties when considered was avoidance or removal of what appeared at the timf: to be causing considerable dissatisfac tion among teachers as a whole-the existence of what mig ht properly be described as payment by results or, t o use l,y average attendance.

Of course it means the same thing.

term, payment the proper salaries the The CHAIRMAN : The hon.

Mern is mistaken.
Mern is mistaken.

Payment by resnlts be1· was a system by which the teacher'!=< salary was based on the n umber of scholars who passed an examination.

Mr. de AGUIAR: That is quite true, but there is a very thin distinc I think it means the same thing.

tion.

The CHAIRMAN : The present system is one by which the salaries of teachers are based on average atten-:1- ance and no,t on the results of examin ations.

The children may never pass an examination.


Mr. cle AGUI AR: That was one of the difficulties that had to be over come: It was felt that the suggestion put for ward by the Committee and accepted by Government and this Council would have met the case, hut my submission is that the case would never be met under the application of the propo,sals.
The position to-day ~s and I have it on very reliable aut.hori ty-that a head teacher of a s mall school, say with an average attendance of about 60 or 80 pupils, is drawing a salary higher than that o,f a h~ad teacher of another school with an , about school the head attendance average four or this t imes larger.

I can assure five Council that that was never · intended at all.
Ano.ther example that was put to me was that in the case of one teacher particular found himself drawing a sala,ry below t hat of his assistant.

Is that cQrrect ·?

It cannot be, and it certainly was never intended to be so--certainly not in my mind and not in the mind of my this colleague who is a Member of Council.

While I would not like to speak for the Director of Educatio,n l can hardly conceive that it could have been in his mind that such a situation would have come a,bo.ut.
is another knowledge where I will give another example which will pe,rhaps focus the attention of Government on the seriousness Qf the school situation.

T here w ithin my the number on ro,11 is about 600 or slightly more.

The average attendance is about 400.

The position in that school to-d!


",ly is that the head teacher is draw ing appro.ximately $10 or $12 per month than one of his assistants who more was only appointed in April of this year, whereas the head teacher has the record service o,f about 27 years.

T!

'lat is bad enough, but what would be the position if that head teacher remained in that school for another three yearr;.
I think I am right in saying that in about three years' time the assist,mt teacher will be drawing a high er salar y than the h ead teacher of the school.

I know the answer I will get but I wish to say immediately that, so far as I am concerned, it will be wrong.

The answer r.;o,ing to be what I regard as a is distinction without a difference.

I want to anticipate the answer that will be given to me in order to make my poiut perfectly clear.
I presume the answer will be that on the one hand the head teacher is probably in what is knoW11 as the second or third grade, wh ereas the assistant teacher h as passed through mass production (I do not use the term very critically) and has had the privilege of obtaining a certificate fo1· Gracle A Ol' l 1 or Class I or Class II, 1385 Estimates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.
-Committee 1386 that because o.f that certificate and is a better teacher that assistant teacher not only in respect of educa-· tional qualifications but because she (the assistant teacher I refer to is a lady) can maintain the discipline of the school better than a m an who has had 27 years' experience.

them.

supported this Council That is where the money is being wasted.

the I do not know whether first Nominated Member who spoke had that in mind, but if h e did 1 agree with him.
That is definitely wrong and was never intended.
and that is why when those recommendations were put up, I was at pain,; to point out to Government and that whilst I the reco,mmenda tions I wanted to make my position perfectly clear-that the application of -recommendations wQuld mean these the success or failure of I suggest that unless the matter is taken in hand immediately the recommenda tions put up by the Committee in the conditions of order service of teachers will fail, and in about three or five years' time we will fincl ou,rselves in the same chaotic condition as has been existing for the past several years.
We will find that there will be an all-round clamour b:v teachers themselves for a re--considera tion of the whole matter, and I f ear that when that time co.mes it will be found that om· expenditure under t his head would be most likely increasP.d by a very large sum indeed.

I s uggest that if that should come to pass the hon.

Member's r emark would -be correct, that the money being !=lpent on education ;_;; being wasted.

to improve Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO: May I inter pose to assure the hon.


Member that what he has r eferred to has been looked into by the Director Mr. de AGUIAR: I am very grate ful for that explanation and therefore 1 do not propose to pursue the mat ter.

I am glad to hear that the matter is being investigated, but I would like to express my personal regret the cause shoulrl have a,risen at all.

t hat The COLONIAL SECRET ARY: I must point out, To a point of order.
and I would like to read the words of the report ·which states :- 5.

The payment o.f head to be most unsatisfa ctory teachers' salairies by average attendance was con sidered for several reasons, and the Committee has endeavoured by its recommetidations to obviate payment by this method.

The question of paym~nt by en.rolment was also considered but similarly found tms3t isfactory.
The Committee 1.hereupo;n put up certain recommendations whic\'} included g rades of teachers, and which have been adopted by the Council and by the Secre tar y of State, and are now being put into effect.

If there ar e defect s r esult ing the Direct0r of Education will do his utmost, I am sure, to remedy those defects.
But with the g1·eatest respect to the last speaker I think it shows rather a mistake in the recommendations their adoption, in than a mistake because the Director really has no dis cretion in carrying out the· recolnmenda I am sure the tions of the Committee.

the if hon.

Member will agre11 thall Director now goes into the question he may quite easily f ind a means t o remedy I the de.feet which has been expl~ined.
do not think the fault lies with the application of the r rr;ommendations, but with the r ecommendations th ~mselves.

Of course nobody ir.

infallahle.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: I should like to add that I was the officer seiected by Government to move the resolution which authoriiecl t hese salary scales, and I invited the Council to adopt the report to which, as the Colonial Sec retary has said, the hon.

Memper was a signatory.


There was no reservation in that report and, therefore, the salary scales, as applied today.

are entirely on the basis of that report which has been adopted by th is Council.

The CHAIRMAN: Adjustments can be made by means of t ransf~r -from one school to another, but 1 hope that - - l - - - 1387 Estimates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-C ornmittee 1383 will not necessarily be the result, be cause it would mean entire dislocation.
the and Mr. de AGUIAR : The explanation given by the Colonial Secr etary and the Colonial Treasurer does not take the· point any .further.

Perhaps I may be allowed to s ay that it is trne that 0£ the persons who signed the report at.

least one of them was a p r imary scholar, a nd he was dealing with primary educa t ion.

He ther efore t h ought that prim ary consideration would be given to the report.
I explained that the recom mendations are t here and· a r e substan tially correct, but I ·went further antl made my point perfectly clear.

I said then, and I repeat again today, that the recommendations were clear, but · the trouble arose in the application of those It is no good telling recommendations.

me now t hat a mistake was made by the that authors of report, means w ould be found remedy It does appeal the to my commercial sense at all.
My answer to that would •be that you ·,11,1ill find it extremely difficult to remedy something when t he damage is already done.

I would like to ask a question.

How is it proposed to remedy the situ ation now?

Is it proposed to reduce t he salaries paid to those certi ficated assist to ant teachers, or the head inorease teachers referred?
an answer I would I point that to am making is this : that if those officer 1, who were charged with the responsibi1- ity of putting those recommendat ions into effect had borne in mind t he point that was made, that great care should b e t aken in the application of those recom mendations, t his difficulty would not have arisen.

the salaries of to whom I have like question.

it proposed to have to not defects.

The is I The !COLONIAL SECRET ARY : To a point of order!
The Director o,f Education had no authority but to carry recommendations.

Nobody out found out could in pra~tice.

I think the hon.

Memb i!

:..• ~ccepted ' the assu,rance of t he Direc, an error rectify those that the matter · is being gone tor recommen into.

No doubt a further dation wi ll to Gover n ment.

You cannot blame the Govern ment.

The Director hacl no option.


put be Mr. de AGUIAR: If it is going i o be said that I cannot blame the Govern ment I must say that I am not blaming Government at all.

What I am saying is a simple method of is making out a pay-sheet.

L et us go in to the details.

t hat there The COLONIAL SECRETARY: I am enjoying this.

There are nearly 1,600 school teachers.

It is not so :iim ple to put into operat ion various revised s alary scales affecting so many persons.

I am asking the hon.


Member to let us agree to differ as to the responsibility, and let us agr ee to get it right as soo11 as possible.

Mr .

de AGUIAR: I will agree, provided I am allowed to make one last point.

This is where it hurts, and this is where it hurts the taxpayers of the Colony, of whom I am one.
Much as I regret what h as occurred, I cannot excuse any officer of Government who is char ged w it h the responsibility of pre paring a single pay-sheet for a sch ool I had it in my -and I have seen one.

possession only a few days ago.

It says "John Brown, head teacher , x dollars.

Mary Jones, assistant teacher, y dol lan,'' at a highe r rate of salary.

It is the very plain fact for any primary schola r like myself to understand.
Am to accept the excuse that in I asked such circumstances the attention of Government could not be drawn to the fact that there was something ;,hat n eeded going remedying into and before damage was done?

The COLON IAL SECRETARY: The Directcor of Educ.a,t ion rap.plied for a legal officer.

to be seconded for the pur pose o.f straightening out those defects but he was told it was impossible to second a legal officer.
I told the _Direc tor to get on with it1 and l think he 1389 Estimates, 1945' 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Committee 1390 has a very difficult job in applying these new scales.

Let us agree to differ and agree to put it right.

Mr. de AGUIAR: Very well, sir.

The Council r esumed and adjourned 1mtil 8.30 p.m. NIGHT SESSION 8.30 P.M.- The Council resumed, His Excellency the Governor, Sir Gordon Lethem, K.C.M.G., President, pres iding.

COLONEL STANLJ<JY'S VISIT TO THE WEST INDIES.


The PRESIDENT: I would just like to invite the notice of hon.

Mem bers to t he announcement over "ZFY" t.his evening regarding the visit of the Secretary of .State to the West Indies.
I have exchanged a personal cablegr am with Colonel Stanley who stat es t h at owing to the absolute necessity of being date back in Parliament 8/t an early after the resumption in January he will not have sufficient time, as he had hoped, rto visit all the West Indian Col·· onies and British Guiana.

H e w ill only visit the Western Group-the Bahamas, British Honduras, Jamaica and Ber muda.

If hon.
If hon.

Members heard his Mes sage they would have understood, ff not I would just repeat that he had to aban don it as the .time at his disposal being so short that his visit to all the Col onies, the Eastern as well as the ,1/est ern group, would only enable him to spend a very short time in each Colony as to be valueless.

A visit of one or two days to t his Colony would be scarce ly wort h while.
He proposes on t he next to occasion when the East leave England including British Guiana ern Group which rather more time than he would have had, had he come on this occasion.

This an n-nuncement should have come ot1t at he- is ab I e give him to.

visit w i 11 6.45 o'clock this evening.

l desire Mr, WOOLFORD: to inform Your Excellency that the Head Education-is under discussion at the present moment and hon.

Members are addressing t he Council generally on the education policy.
The PRESIDENT: We w ill then proceed in Committee.

resolved The Council into Committee and r esumed considerat ion of the 1945 draft Estimates of Expen- ditu re at Head VIII- Education.

it~elf Mr. de AGUIAR: At the adj,mrn ment this afternoon I was dealing with certain anomalies that crept into thE payment of salaries of certain Head- .

teachers as the result of the Wight Committee's Report.
But , sir, during the discussion or during the time I was making a remark the hon, the Colonial Secretary rose from h is seat and said t hat he agreed w ith me whilst at the same time disagreeing with me.

I do not oropose t o purs ue the point any further except to say that I accept the announce ment that was made t hat the points raised ·would be thoroughly enquired into.
And may I add that the hardship that had been ~reated wo11ld be r emedierl at a verv early datP.. that request because I feel sure that if we when I say "we" I mean " Government -w>int the satisfaction which I happen to know at m·e«P.nt exi"t,, :;imon.rr th ~ teachers tn contin11P- ~n<l I hone it wi11 tirnf'- earlv continue fo•: ::i. VP >"" lono- th 0 sten" "'10" lrl hf' b keri +o 1·emedy harcl"h;n I h~ve rf'ferred to.
I make this H ead When the Chair~an of t he Advis ory Committee was speaking generally this aft ernoon, he under referr ed to the p r oposal that was under consideratioI;J I believe or had been sug _g-ested for the award of a soecial schol- i arship for girls.

He has invited com ments from Members around this table 1391 Esti"mateis, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Committee 1392 as to the wisdom of introducing this scholarship.
Certain Members have spoken before me and although I believe a ll of them did not make any particula1· reference to the matter, I would like to assure my hon.

friend on my left (Mr. J.

A, Luckhoo) that when the t ime comes t o bring forward that proposal I have n o doubt it will receive support from this Council.

There is a lot to be said i n s upport of this Colony introducing a special scholarship for girls.
One has only got to look back or around at what is happening today to find the numbe1· of important j obs that are being carried out by women in the United Kingdom and even in t his Colony.

There can be no doubt that the time has come when t he men of the world must realize t hat the women are entitled to equal oppOJ.'
tunities, and it .seems to me, therefore, t hat the introduction o.f the higher award of a scholar ship in this Colony should be earmarked for the purpose, so that we can hope to educate some of our girls for these high posts.

For myself, I hope that when it comes to the ques tion of higher education we in this hemi sphere will not only content ourselves mer ely with the award of these valuable scholarships to our students, but that.
the time is not too far distant when it will be found practical to set up the organization which is referred to gener ally as a University in these· parts so that we can do the training ourselves.

T think there is a lot to be said fo favour o.f t raining the youths of t hese parts in our own localitv so to speak.
Most of them, if not all, have to carry on their normal life in these surroundingg, and it is just as well tha,t in such an institution they may be aible to intro duce certain conditions which will be appropriate and which will also mean t he upliftment of these Colonies.
J think, sir, that such an instiut ion is already in t he minds of the Authorities, and my only reason for i:eferring to it at this stage is to express the hope that in a very shor t while we will advance beyond the thinking staire and try to do ~0rtlfthi11g th;1,t i;i practical.

A good deal has been said during your absence this afternoon.

Certain Members attempted, at least one hon, Member- I think it was the hon.

Mem ber for E ssequib~ River, as usual -to advocate a system of Government Schools.
I w,ould like to say that as fal' a s I am concerned I am not 100 per eent .

an advocate for such institutions, although I must say that I would like to see a sprinkling of t hem here and ther e. We already have a few of them, and I do not think I would discredit the idea if a few m ore wer e set up, bi.it l t hink it is well that we should not •mcourage the idea that t he wide intro duction o.f Government Schools in t hL, Colony will be the best thing for our youths.
I have no doubt, sir, that there are faults in the denominational system, but I think on the balance the scale i!s heavier, very much heavier, in favout of that system and I hope it ·will cont inue.
I have said in this Council before that to my mind it is extremely difficult to expect any educational system to suc ceed unless there is some religious back ground, and when I say "religious back ground'; I do not only mean the saying of prayers and things of that kind, but if I may describe it in this way as a higher religious influence that one can not hope to achieve by merely saying the morning and evening prayers at school.
Although there are certain faults in .our denominational system, I think that what we ought to try and do is to remedy those faults that are found in the hope of strengthening- the system and so maintain that religious background which I and, I know, quite a number of people of t his Colony feel I must repeat, it does is so desirable.

not necessarily follow that I would not like to see an increase in the number of Government Schools but we must pro ceed very slowly on that score.
Reference was also made to adult edu I would like to say, sir , that cation.

whether that is an obligation o.f thP.

State or n ot I still believe it is a highly contrqveri:Ji~l rriatt~r, i;lpe~i.l~ing frqm m;y 1393 Estima,te·s.. 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Committe~ 1:.394 and knowledge of what I have read here a nd think, by 100 per.

cent.

which ml ans he there, most of the things I have read will be drawing a salary of $lW per inform me that when it comes to adult month.
Similarly in a school ,l,,ith an education it is more a question of vo!- average attendance of 400 children the voluntary Headteacher with the same class certifi untary o,rganization effort.

It is well for Members to remem- cate will be drawing the same salary of ber the phrase: .. Each one teach one''.

$110 per month.

The salary scale has and I think when it comes to adult edu~ been fixed on an incremental ba~is with h bar somewhere.
What I would like to cation in this country, perhaps, steps have reconsidered is this: The Head might be taken to encourage that bein:,r teacher of a school with an average of done.
As I say, the question of th~ 80 children will be more likely to pass that State providing' the means foi• adult bar because his responsibility is far less education is a highly contr.oversial ma+.- than the Headteacher of the school with ter, and I have no doubt it will no:; an av_erage of 400 children and, there receive the favour that, perhaps, the hon.

fore, 111 process of time the Headteacher Member for Essequibo River may think.
of the smaller school will pass the bar It is his view and of course he is entitled to express it.

As far as I am concerned, the and it is my duty to say to the Government Headte~c~~r of_ the larger school whose i·e_sponsibi_h!ty 1s greater, I presume, the things I have said in the hope that both sides of the picture will be taken will r emam at $110 because of the diffi culty he may have in passing that bar lnto consideration.

I have one or two so fa1·.


as the general efficiency of the minor matters to refer to but as they school 1s concerned.

· .

eal particularly with spec1f1c items that d appear on the Estimates I do not oro pose to prolong the debate any further, but to deal with them as the i.tem s are reached.

the maximum wllile reach : .

.

.

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: Represent ation has also been made to me on simi-1 lar lines as the observation of the hon.

Member for Central Demerara (M1·.


de Aguiar) in so far as the dissatisfac tion of the teachers throughout the Col ony over the salary scales.

The hon.

Colonial Secretary having given an undertaking, I take it the matter will be fully g()ille into.

I think a case has been fully made out by the hon.

Member for Central Demerara, and I hope that at an early date the question will be fully just mention, I may gone sir, that it is not only those tha!t the hon.

Member for Central Demerara, complained about.


In going through the matter other anomalies will be found.

We will also find that in a school which has an average of about 80 children, prior to this new scale- the Headteacher who happens to be a first class certificated teacher drew a salary of $,55 per monrth.

Under the new iScale his salary will Pe increased, l into.

the lAssistant Irt is not my desire to criticize the system which has been abolishetl for the present one, but what is the di.verence?
I think we were tolu over and over again that a good many of the people in this country have laid too much stress on certificates or the passing of I examin ations.

But what do we see?

The pres ent system of salary scale does not con form with tha,t view of the Elducation Department, because the salary scale is based upon the certificate the Head teacher h<,lds and also Teacher.

That has caused the anomal ies complained about by the hon.

Mem ber for Central Demerara.


T urn it in whatever form you like it amounts in the end to nothing short o.f an exam ination result though it may be of doubt ful character.

F'or a Headteacher to get his increment and to pad the bar he has to get two or three consecutively the Inspector.

good certificates from Does not that amount to another form of the Inspector's examinati~n o~ the school?
I may be accused of bemg a product of what I may call the ancient system , but I cannot see the ljse of the modern syst em.

Nevertheless having \. '

1395 Esti:mates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

--Committee 1396 been brought up under the ancient system I would not be too far wrong if I advocate it as being a bette1· system than the present one.
As I say, it amounts to nothing short of an exam ination because the Inspector examines the children, and takes the general con dition and everything in relation to that school be.fore he issues a certificate.

I hope the present system will work well the Education as Department and the Advisory Commit tee.

is anticipated by Another matter I would like to be included in the reconsideration of this salar y scale is the salary of the Assist ant Inspectors.

What do we find?
What do we find?

It may happen, I am sure, that a Head teacher will be drawing at sometime or other a higher salary than an Assistant Inspector.

I do not think that was the intent.ion.

The headteacher of a school, as the hon.

Member for Central Dem erara has stated, and an Assistant Teacher of a school will be drawing more salary eventually than an Assist ant Inspector and that, I think, is an anomaly which should be remedied.

I see the hon.
I see the hon.

Member for Cent r al Demerara was very very cautious in saying that he would not advocate 100 per cent.

Government Schools.

I think he ought to have been a little bit bolder.

If the system of Government Schools is _ not good do not have a sprinkling of them anywhere at all.
If it is not good put it away altogether, but .I am sure he will find it difficult to get support of this Council or to get the support of the country in any endeavour favouring Denominational Schools instead of Gov ernment Schools.

I think the consen in favour of Government Schools.

is (Voices: "Question?")

I foresee another think might be anomaly which, brought to Government's notice, no doubt from another quarter.

You will find, sir, that the Manager a.f a school will be drawing less salary than thP.
Headteacher.

That is an anom:ily which is not Government's reiponsibility but I ~ .... it is an anomaly which, l must say, is not a happy one, and I am sure that representation will be made from othe1 quarters in respect of that, so I need not worry myself about that anomaly.

As I say, I take it that Government has recognized iiS stated by the hon.

the Colonial Secre• tary, the matter will be gone into.

I dCI hope t hat, with the assistance of the these anomalies Advisory Committee, will be remedied.
these anomalies and, are that rather knows The COLONIAL SECRETARY: I j ust wish to point out to the hon.

Member for Western Berbice (Mr.

Peer Bacchus) '.

;hese cri,ticisms and recommendations which are now being made about the salary scale of school The teachers late.

hon.

Member sup- he the matter was ported it when regards debated in this Council... .... As school the dissatisfaction amongst teachers I would ,recall to to like the hon.
Member the paper I read last night which is the copy of a resolution passed at a meeting of the B.G.

Teach ers' Association held on the 25th Octo ber, expressing appreciation and t hanks for the increases recently approved io~: primary school teachers.

I only desire to remind the hon.

Member of that.

As regards the Assistant Inspectors, their ~alaries on the Estimates were adopted by the Government in Council in accord ance with the majority vote.
Mr. ROTH: This debate on Gov ernment's education policy having now lasted 2½ hours, it is not my intention to prolong it unduly.

There is, however, one point I should like to mention, and that is the question of the control of private schools.

Hon.

Members will recollect that during the debate on the Education vote for 1944 I raised the question.
Therefore I will not repeat the argument I used then as I under stand a Committee has been appointed to consider I would, however, ask Government to inform the Council as to what is the posi tion now.

the question.

1397 Estfrnates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, i944.

-Committeh 1398 - : - Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO.

With respect schools to the control of private a Bill has been drafted and, I believe, sent to the Union of Private Schools for its consideration.

Mr. WOOLFORD: I may add fur the information of the hon.
Nominated Member that only this morning a Com mit t ee for seconclary scho,ols, function ing under the Educational Developmen~ Committee, of which I am Chairman, spen t at least half an h our considering what their recommendations might be, a nd Mr. Luckhoo, who is the Chairman of that body, has promised to furnish the Committee w ith a memorandum on the subject.
He proposes to have a meeting with the other schools, and will tell us what decision has been reache<l, or what recommendations they may be inclined to make.

I may mention generally that there are about 3,000 pupils being taught in various private schools.

I am speaking, of course, of secondary education, and it is their complaint that not only have they not got the accommodation afforded at Queen's College, but it is their wish that they should be assisted by State aid-by subvention of some kind.
It is a very big question indeed, and I hope the hon.

Member will have some patience in the matter, because it is not at all likely that a decision will be r eached for some considerable · time.

Mr. JACOB : Unfortunately I was absent during the afternoon session and I did not hear the whole debate on educa tional policy.

I am speaking this eve ning not as a member of the Advfao!·y Committee but as a Member of this Council representing : he District I have the honour to represent.
I understand that the Chairman of the Ad'Visory Committee invit ed the Council's opinion with regard to an additional British Guiana Scholarship for girls.

I believe I raised the question on the Advisory Committee recently, as to whether pro posals would be put before t h is Coundl in the Draft Estimate we are consider ing now for this additional scholarship, and I do not know whether l got a specific answer that it would be done.
Looking through my papers 1 came across minutes of the meeting of the Advisory Committee held on November 3, 1943.

Under the heading "Estimate, Education Department, 1944'' this is recorded in the minutes, and I ask your permission to read it:- that if no girl "Mr. J acob pror::osed that two British Guiana Scholarships should be given each year, one for boys and one for girls.
'Ihe the proposal and Chairman supported suggested ireached scholarship standard the second :scholar in ship should be awarded to the next to boy order of merit candidates.)

After it was agreed that if no candidate qualified for either the girls' or boys' scholarship the scholarship and, if necessary, a re- vote the next year, and that be considered the recommendation shou~d be made to Government accordingly in regard to the E stimates for 1945. "

(if qualified, discussion The Advi!


'Ory Committee weht into the matter and made a specific recom mendation in 1943, that in the 1945 Estimates an amount should be voted for an additional scholarship for girls.

I express d isappointment that it has 110,t been done, and I trust it is not too late to insert an add itional sum in the E stimates for 19_45, either now or before they are finally considered, or in a supplementary estimate, so that it might come into force next year.
Mr. LUCKHOO: May I be per mitted to assure the hon.

Member that in my opening remarks I invited dis cussion on this matter because, with Your Excellency's kave.

when the item is reached I propose in an amount .for 1945. to move Mr. JACOB: I am glad to hear that.

That is so far as an additional scholarship for girls is concerned.

Th:!

question of Government schools was also raised.

I differences of opinion on that very vital matter, but 1 submit with all confidence that thP.
majority opinion is in favo1ur of Govern ment schools.

Government is ~roceed ing along those lines, but as is custom- anticipate ~ 13!

)9 Estimates, 1945 LEGISLATIV.El CoUNdlt.

-C01n1nittee 1400 to leave ary, I think it is making haste far too slowly.

I think that wherever there is room for a school-and there ar e lots of places where there is room for schools -Government schools should be put up.
I do not say that children should be the denominational forced schools, but I think if Government schools were put up, properly equipped and well staffed, the majority of children would travel miles to attend leave · the Government denominational schools alone.

I there fore urge that Government schools should be erected at a faster rate than they are at the present time.

schools and I understand that the question of adult education was also debated, aml that my friend the hon.
Member for Central Demerara ( Mr. de Aguiar) is not certain whether Government should initiate the education of adults.

I think the responsibility rests solely with the Government.

When we consider - that up to the present time three out of every ten children of school-going age are not in school through lack ,of accommodation and one or two other reasons, I think it is the duty of the Government t0i begin to educate adults.

I would say that Gov ernment should begin to educate the y,ouths.
As a matter of fact those who have passed school-leaving age would be inclined to educate themselves if facili-' ties were provided for them with some a ssistance from Government.

I w0itlld not suggest that adults between 40 and 50 should be tackled at the present time.

I realize the difficulties those of us wh0i are in ·favour of such a system have to meet.
The matter was discussed at var ious places, the Fran~hise including anticipate strong Commission, and I oppositi.on from certain quarters, but I say that the majo1'ity opin.ion would be strongly in favour of Government doing something to educate adults, particularly those over 14 years.
It is within the knowledge of Gov- ernment that in certain places in Dem ,erara, Be1,bice a nd E ssequibo· at the present t ime children ar e not going to school because there are no school build- It t0i do something the adults.

ings available.

If Government cannot do something .for those children it migh-:; for be difficult the youths and is a prob~em which I urge Government I believe that to tackle expeditiously.
recommendations have been made by various Committees, and I believe that the funds of the Colonial Development and Welfare organization would be available for something to be done in that direction.

I hope that Government will be able to make a start next year, and that when a start is made it will proceed at a rapid rate.
I understand that J amaica and Trinidad (I cannot resist the temptat ion to say that we are on equality with them now) are getting grants, and I think a strong case shoulcl the Imperial Govern., be put up to :ment, that now that we are a first class Colony like those other Colonies, and since they are being helped, and helped; I t hink, very lavishly (tremendously, my friend says) and that we should ptess our claim for this additional money to build schools, not only for children but for youths and adults.
As a member of the Advisory Committee I will p•ress :hat this matter be pursued very rapidly.

I have one or two other mattets to raise but I think it would be better to raise them when we reach the par ticu lar items.

Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO : The debate on this head has lasted for some con siderable · time, and I think it is the desire of the Council that the vote for Education should be passed this evening.

The first point to which I wish to direct t he attention of the Council is that made by the hon.
Nominated Member, Mr. Dias, who spoke early this, afternoon ort the amount to be voted and the benefits which the Colony will derive from the expenditure of that sum.

The hon.

Member referred to the fact that the very first t hing Government should tackle was the purification of some of the homes of the people of this Colony, in order to eradicate the f,oul language being used day after day by children, l:401 Esti-mates, 1945 14 DECEMBER; 1944.
-Conimi~tee 14C2 said that the present policy of the Edu· not only in their o-wn homes but in the cahon Department is good, and I think I do streets and other public places.

not think the blame is to be laid at the Members who have studied the question of primary education in this Colony mll.

:ls door of the Education Department at that of Government.

1 all, or even agree with him.


The only complaint he think that in the first place the parents made was that the text-•books or Readers used in the schools are not suitable, and of those children are to be blamed.

They t hat the Department should revert to are the persons who should educate their the old Royal Readers, or s0ime other children toward a better way of living and it seems to me that there is also a Readers used in the past.
duty cast upon the Churches to speak to those parents at the proper time r.nd to teach them how to conduct their, homes.

To lay the blame either at the door of Government or the Education Department does not seem to me to he .i ustified at all.

On the question of secondary edt1ca tion several Members hav~ spoiken, and I think Government is ~oing its best .to assist some of the recognized secondary schools by giving them a grant or subsidy from year to year.
1 ,refer to the Bishops' High t3cho,ol for Girls and the Convent.

I now unde1· stanrl that the grant to the Convent has been withdrawn.

Certain Members hav~ raised the question of the erection of schools in the country dstricts, and the provision of teachers and Attendance homes for Officers.
I think Membe1·s must have read quite recently that it is the inten tion of Sir Frank Stockdale to recom mend a grant of $200,000 over a period of six years · for the erection of houses for teachers in the various district~.

Thi.:!

CHAIRMAN: P.rovision for schools .

Houses for teachers are separ ate.

Mr .

LUCKHOO: So that what Members are now asking to be done will soon be accomplished.

With respect to the Attendance Officers spoken of by the hon.

Member for Essequibo River (M r. Lee).


it does nQt seem possible for Government to appoint so many officer s to be able to station one in each district of the Colony.

They are doing their work in their own way, and I feel ::;ur e that the Head of the Department, · who is here, will tell the Council that every thing is being done to send the children to the nearest school.

I do not think the time is ripe, or will ever becomt' ripe, to be .for Attendance Officers stationed in every district of the Colony.
I was ver y pleased this afternoon to hear the r emarks of the hon.

the Sixth Nominated Member (Mr. Edun).

He ,.

1· \....C..:.

... - Mr. WOOLFORD: A I grant is being made to the Orphanage.

I Mr. LUCKHOO: The hon.


Mem ber ( Mr. for Central Demerara de Aguiar) raised the question of the curious position of a few head teachers, but I think no blame can be attached to the Director of .Education who has had to carry out the recommendations made by the Wight Committee with respect to the revised salary scales fo r teacher,,.
If there are any defects in the applica tion of these recommendations I think something will be done by qovernment to remedy them, and I can assure Mem bers that the Director is at present deal I hope that will ing with the matter.

satisfy the hon.

Member on my righ':; (Mr. de Aguiar), who felt very strongly on the question· when he spoke earlier this afternoon .
There is hardly anything more I could ver y well say, because 1 think the estimates under this head have been well received, in view of the discussion which took place this afternoon and early that the various items will be passed with out very much discussion, and conside,r- ation of the h ead will be concluded very early this evening.

evening.

hope this I 1403 Estvmate-s, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Committee 1404 Item le-3 At1st.

I nspectors of to $2,160 by $120).

Scho<4s $1,680 $5,380 .


Mr. de AGUIAR: I wish to invite attention to the salary scale of the Asst.

Inspectors of Schools in order to make the point that it seems to me that th is is a matter which might well r-eceive some consideration_.

The posi tion is that these Asst.

Inspectors start I have no doub~ at £350 rising to £450.

that when this scale was fixed recently there was no knowledge of the scale proposed for head teachers in the var ious schools.
On that scale head teach ers will go to a maximum of :Cl!OO.

The CHAIRMAN: A few of them.

the is Mr. de AGUIAR: That scale, but how many will reach that maximum is another matter.

The post of Asst.

Inspector of Schools is senior to that of a head teacher o.f a school.

His duties are to supervise and gener ally to enquire into the conduct and general <liscipline of t he school, and it is cons id• ered that both the minimum and t h~ maximum of the salary scale for Asst.
Ins.pectors of Schools should receive con sideration.

The same remarks apply to item lb on the next page, and whilst I am on m y feet I may r efer to it.

It seems curious that the Assistant Mistress of the Government Training College for Teachers should lower minimum salary than a trained certifi teacher, and quite Ukely her cated less.

maximum salary will also be I have two points I I into.

made lo,oked be today, b~1t am not pressing I consideratio:1 that some s hould be given to them.
the should receive a <lo urge think them Mr. EDUN: In districts like Wind the sor Fa.rest, where the majority of c-hildren are East Indians, I have been told by parents that they would prefer text-books instead of breakfast.

I am wondering whether that may not be accepted as a poliey.
The CHAIRMAN: 1 might raise the point at item 15. think you Mr. FERREIRA : I would like to pay tribute to the officer who i s carrying out the duties of Supervising Dietician, and I must congratulate the Department on the happy choice, because when the vote was passed last year it was rather a la,rge sum, and I was sceptical as ta whether the project could be success fully carried out, especially when I real ized t!1e difficulty in obtaining the neces sary equipment so as to have these breakfast · centres running in a satisfac tory manner.
I can assure the Council from my personal knowledge, n ot onl?

in New Amsterdam but on the Berbice river o:f all places, where communication is rather difficult, that that officer has t.ravelle<l to Orealla, and her work has been success ful and · is greatly appreciated.

I would like to pay tribute to the officer who 1,as done a successful job.

that district through The CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

Item 3-E:1:ve11({es, Education Co-m- 111 ittee, $64.

Mr. JACOB: I would like to have a l ittle information.
Are these travel ling or other expenses?

i~ would be well if Government conside·r ed the question of having one Committee only.

think I Mr. LUCKHOO: Consideration of the .first point mentioned by the hon.

Member is engaging the attention of m y Committee at present.

Mr. nominal CREASE: This a mount of $64 has been on the estimate for many yea1·s, and as a rule it is not touched.

• ,,,.

Item, j- Suve1·vising Dieticia·n, Children's B -reakfast Centres ( $1,200 to $1,440 by $96), $1,288.
The CHAIRMAN: Cut it down to l see a large number of increases $5.

and very few reductions.

, 1405 Estimia,tes, 1945 14 bECEMBtR, 1944.

-Committee 1406 Mr. de AGUIAR : The actual expenditure was $5.

The CHAIRMAN: Somebody·s train fare.

Mr. CREASE: Incidental expenses; probably a new chair.

The CHAIRMAN : Do they break the chairs ?

As you have only spent $5 we had better reduce it to $5 for next year.

EDUCATION-SCHOOLS, I NSTITUTIONS AND MISCELLANEOUS.
Item Idr-Res·ident Lady Superin tendent ($288 by $24 to $480), $336.

Mr. de AGUIAR: I want to make an appeal in respect o.f this item.

I pres ume that the sum of $336 provides for an increment in 1945.

The plea I was about to make is this.

The hours of this particular employee are ver y I have been trying to work them long .

out .

I t hink they are something like nineteen hours a day.

It does seem to I do not want be a very meagre wage.
to interfere with the scale, but I am wondering whether Government can see its way to carry out the figure at .the maximum of t he scale so that t he person in this particular post will receive some immediate benefit, otherwise it will take, I think, somet hing like eight years for her to get to the maximum.

The CHAIRMAN: r efer that to the Chairman of the Advisory Committee and t he Director.
I will Mr. LEE: Under item 4-Books and educational s upplies, $550-I would like to enquire whether this sum is suffi cient to meet the needs of the Primary Schools.

The CH AIRMAN: It is the Train ing College.

Mr. J .

A. LUCKHOO: With r ef er ence t o the point raised by t he h on.

Member for Central Demerara with respect to item 1 (d) l think, sir, the suggestion made by him will find favour at least with my Committee.

The CHAIRMAN: Thank you.


the recommendation of Mr. WOOLFORD: May I s uggest when adjustments are made iI).

respect fo the sala,ries of teachers but inst ead of giving etfect to them as is apparently done by r esolution of this Council s up porting the Committee they appear in the E;ducation Code.

That is the authority t o give effect t o salaries of teachers.

There fore every teach er or person interested w,ould look a t the Code for the salaries.
I suggest that the necessary amend ment be made in t he Code.

That is the proper authority for the salaries.

Item, 10'-Grants, etc., $58,030.

Mr. ROTH Wit h regard to sub head 10, during the last thirteen months I have been worrying the Depa1~ ment in connection with the necessity for a small school in the Potaro gold.fields.

I would be glad to know what th e position I also would like to is in that respect.

bring to Government's notice the neces in sity for a kindergarten syhool Georgetown.
Several have approached me about t here being no first-class kinder garten schooi in t he city.

The need is ver y badly felt in some quarters.

I ask that Government give the m atter some consideration.

parents school Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO : With respect to the Potaro Dis the for trict, that matter is being dealt with by the Committee.

We have written per sons there.

We hope to be able to give a reply as early as possible.
I Mr. EDUN : am enquiring whether t he Advisory Committee or t he Department is considering the advisabil ity o.f taking over or aiding the Mackay Memorial School at Wakenaam.

That is a very vexed question.

I do not want to take up the time of the Council now, as we have not prog ressed much for the ' <: 1407 :Estimates, 1945 LEGISLATiVE COUNCIL.

-Committee 1408 I think the Chairman of the whole day.
Advisory Committee knows very much more than I do about this matter and now that the schoolmaster has been removed something ought to be done.

Again I want to draw Your Excel lency's attention to Hindi and Urdu education and to enquire whether this IJJ.atter has come to any head as yet.

There is a certain amount of money which has been given by Government for I think cer Hindi and Urdu education.
tain organizations are endeavouring to get Government to restore this little trifling sum in order to help them to I do not know carry out this education.

what is the position today, but I t hink these things should be brought to a head -both the Mackay Memorial School and Hindi and Urdu education.
Mr. LEE: If I am permitted to say i n regard to the Mackay Memorial School, I went into the question very fully with the Department and it was found that Government could do nothing as the school was just h alf a mile away from a Grant-in-'Aid Methodist School.

The residents o.f that ai:ea have p leaded with Government to consider whether it is not possible to have a Government contr,olled school there and so avoid hav-· ing any denominational schoQl.
They are trying their best to raise funds for the purpose and, if necessary, hand it over to Government to do, what it can.

Mr. J.

A. LUCKHOO: I am afraid we were u·na1ble to meet the request of the persons who wrote on behalf of t h e Mackay Memorial School, because there is an existing s~hool in that area cap able of accommodating all the children of school-going a ge and it would be .

'l breach of the Regulations to support such a plea.

The CHAIRMAN: We will take a note o.f these comments.
Item 13-Upkeep Schools' R ecre ation Ground, $500.

can this that the its l item rbe correct Mr. FERREIRA: schools suburbs.

only assume applies to in Georgetown I and like would to I a:m wrong.

in case If I am correct, I do t hink that New Amsterdam with a school population running into a thousand should be given some consideration.

Lands are avail able but the children of New Amster- dam have j ust one recreation ground the Police which is borrowed from has Department.
The Municipality large areas of land available, and I do think that a small grant w ill · enable those children to h ave a suitable recre ation and so keep them off the streeb.

15 -- Chi ldren's Brea)cfa.st lte<m Centres, $81,310.

the Centres Mr. EDUN: I am thinking whether in those districts wh ere Indian children are in the majority and the parents do not wish to take advantage of the food text-books supplied by cannot be given the children instead.
I ·want a reply to that, and I ask that it be given in writing so as to have it on record.

I would also like to have a reply about the Hindi and Urdu educa tion grant.

I have not been told any thing about it.

Mr. LEE: May I ask Government whether it can see its way to establish a breakfast centre for the Fredericksburg School, .for t he reason that it is attended b y children from Maria Johanna which is about two and a half miles away and from Noitgedacht which is about one and a quarter mile away.
Those chil dren have to walk those distances to and from school and sometimes carry their breakfast with to school.

No them accommodation whatever is provided in the school or in its immediate vicinity for t h ose children to take their break fast and I think if some accommoda tion is provided it would serve a very useful purpose in t h e education of the children.

Mr. JACOB: I was glad to hear the tribute paid to the Supervising 1409 Estimo.,,tes, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.
-Committee 141.0 Dietician by the hon.

Member for Ber bice River and, I think, Government has given an undertaking that the amount provided for Breakfast Centres will be s ubstantially increased.

Last year when this matter was debated under a supple- .

mentary estimate, I pointed out t he Yarious pla.ces where these centres can be established.

I am disappointed to find t hat nothing has been included in this estimate for 1945 for that purpose.
As a matter of fact there is a decrease of $1,700 and t he explanation given in the Notes to the page reads : The decrease o.f $1,700 is repre sented by the transfer of the salary o.f the s ·upervising Dietician ($1,200) to the and removal -of the cost of utensils already supplied ($500) .

· establishment pension-able I believe this Council would vote without hesitation an increased amount I for Breakfast Centr es and for books.
merely raise the point so as to find out whether there is any opposition so that the matter can be brought up in a sup plementary estimate for an increased amount.

The CHAIRMAN : I announced yesterday that an application is going forward to the Comptroller of Colonial Development and Welfare.

The appli cation is in preparation.

I area there think, M-r. FERREIRA : The question regards Edinburgh and Fri,mcts as is no that unfortunately is there.
That is a v~r y kitchen up malarial the and, children there are more in n eed of a breakfast centre than in many other schools in t he Colony.
I have only t his afternoon discussed with the Director of Education whether or not something can be done for those children, and he assured me that if a lorry was put at his disposal breakfast from the New Am sterdam Centre can be sent up to those two schools I am satisfied in my own mind that Government can between the T r ansport and Harbours Department, the Produce Depot and the Mail Service obtain at least one truck .for t he purpose.
I would ask Government to press either of those services to provide conveyance for the breakfast from the New Amster dam Centre to those two schools which are t he most needy in this Colony.

The CHAIRMAN : I am sure the Director w ill take notice of that.

CARNEGIE T RADE SCHOOL Fok WOMEN.

Mr. LEE: The salary of the Principal, $2,400, is placed below the line.

Las t year it was above the line.

Is it a mistake?
Is it a mistake?

of Institution The COLONIAL TREASURER : The Principal this is serving under an agreement and is not pensionable directly from this Govern· ment but a contribution is made towards the Pension Scheme.

I think it is shown as item 28 on the same page-''Contri (Superannu bution under Teachers ation ) Act 1937, U.K. in respect of Principal."

Mr .

LEE: I take it then that the placing of the salary on the Fixed Establishment in the 1944 Estimates is wrong.
that any, particular post The COLONIAL TREASURER : The fa'ct is shown above the line is immaterial if the Officer is serving under an agree ment.

There are many instances of that throu ghout the Service.

Mr .

L EE: If that is so, I plead that &he be appointed permanently.

She ha8 done useful work.

You should go and see the work she is doing t here.

I plead that she be appointed permanently.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: It is not her wish.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: I have a few minor amendments to move.
Item ( a ) -Secretary ($720 by $60 to $960)-after some consideration it is I 1411 Est-cma.tes, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Cowniittee 1'112 decided to ask this Council to approve of the maximum of the salary scale being increased from $960 to $1,200.

Similarly item (b ) -5 Senior Instru c tor s ($720 by $60 to $960)-the maxi Item ( e) mum be increased to $1,200.

-5 Junior Instructors -I move that t hP.


one at $480 by $60 to $600 be placed a bove the line and the maximum of h er scale be increased from $600 to $720.

This salary scale wit h the maximum 1 h ave stated are in accordance wit h the Clerical Grade, and it is considered t hat the responsibility o.f these particular Officers is as great as that of those of t he Clerical Grade.

Consequently the ch ange and increase in the total of t he several items from $4,020 to $4,560.
There is n o actual the expenditure at the moment .

It is just a change in the maximum figure but the consequential increase I have stated is because one item has been placed above the line on account of the increase of t h e maximum salary.

I also move t he deletion of item 26 because at the last riieeting the Counr.i l approved of the introduction of an item nnde1· Head Ag-riculture--to provide for the main tenance o.f the grounds of this Institu tion.

increase in Amendments put, and agreed to.


Ite-ni 29---Grant to Berbice High School for Boys, $4,848.

Mr. FERREIRA : The Chairman of the Advisory Committee mentioned t he desirability of bringing the Berbice Hig h Schools under Government control.
I can assure you that it will meet with the satisfaction and approval of the teachers who at present a re dissatisfied wit h the rat es of salar y scale which are much lower than those paid either at t h e Bishops' High School for Girls or at Queen's College merely for the reason that the Authorities cannot afford to pay adequate salaries.

I wou ld ask the Chairman o.f the Advisory Committee to take steps to h ave these schools, if it is possible, brought und er the control of Government.
The Berbice High Schools in New Amsterdam take the place of Queen's College and the Bishops' High School in Georgetown, and I see no reason why Berbice should not be sup plied wit h adequate education al facil ities.

Berbice is a large County and contributes a the reven ue of the Colony, and it is distinct ly, h a,r<l that parents in that County should have to send their children to GP.org-etown to be educated.
I therefore ask that immediate steps be taken to adopt the suggestion as made by t he Chairman of the Advisory Committee into force.

large portion of The CHAIRMAN : It will be con sidered.

Ar e you prepared to face an expenditure of $20,000?

Mr. FERREIRA: I.f you are doing it for Georgetown I can see no reason why the same should not be d one for Berbice.

The CH AIRMAN: We took over the Bishops' High School at $4,000 and it is now costing us $29,000.

Can WE:l afford it?
Can WE:l afford it?

Mr. EDUN: I am at pains to understand how some Members can blow I think one way and then another way.

firstly Government ought to be con cerned ,with Primary Education.

Now that Secondary Schools are sprin ging up all over the Colony, I think we should encourage Private Schools by making certain regulations.

I do not t h ink we can take over any other High School in this Colony from now on.

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS : I am sup porting the views of the hon.

Member for Berbice River.


I am glad he has not taken much time to change his views when he questioned my remark that the majority of people i n the Colony will vote for Government Schools.

I am pleased that it has not taken h alf an hour for him to change that view and advocate t he taking over of the High I support his views Schools in Berbice.

.. ~ 1413 Estimates, 1945 14 DECF)MBER, 1944.

- Comm,ittee 1414 wholeheartedly.

It is no,t a question of $20,000 being well spent.


It is not only a matter of controUing but taking over those schools.

I The CHAIRMAN : have no · doubt the Chairman of the Advisor y Committee has it in mind, but not for the present year, 1945, that we are con sidering.

Item 32-B1'itish Guiana Schol,ar ship, $7,574.

Mr. J .
Mr. J .

A. LUCKHOO: I under stand it is rather too late to move in a!l amount for t he year 1945 w ith your permission, as the examination for the sch olarship is h eld in June or July fol lowing.

It will r equire some time to frame r egulat ions, if Your Excellency accedes '.mother to the request that scholarship be granted for girl,s only.

The CHAIRMAN : We will put it up in due course.


Mr. LEE: Here you have girls competing for the British Guiana Schol arship under the same regulations a:J the boys now.

You are not creating a lower standard for girls; you are only adding another scholarship and saying that it is to be for girls exclusivei:v. How then we cannot vote the money now?

Why wait for new regulations t o be made?

Are we going to lower the !

'ttandard or are we goinir to keep it at the same old standard?
I feel that the money can be voted now and the g irls fall under the same regulations as the boys.

this year.

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS : If it hap pens that a girl does not qualify at the; examination for the vote would lapse.

I think there is no h arm in placing it on the estimates.

It will be a good gesture to show that Govern ment is genuinely disnosed to g ive an addition al scholarship for girls.

is not paid for one year.

The proper procedu re is to pass a, resolution creat ing the scholarship.
You cannot under take to vote the a mount only for one year.

How do you know that next year the Council m ight not change its mind and decline to vote the amount for the next year?

T he sch olar ship is tenable I suggest th.at this for three years.

Council pass a resolution creating the scholarship and leave it to the Governor in Council to make the regulations set t ing out t he terms of t h e scholarship, and n ot merely vote an amount on the Estimates for one year.
Mr. LEE: Would the regulations be new and different from those now in force?

The CHAIRMAN : If you creaite a scholarship you must create it for three years.

beginning Mr. EDUN: the hon.

said.

I that we there a r e considered I just like to e ndorse what the Colonial Tr~as to am urer fear cannot start now thin gs which must as a m beforehand.

be wedded to free Primary Education, and the day may come when we can give t o every child w ith a little brains secondary education free, gratis and for nothing.
That is wh at I am looking forward to but not now.

We a r e just wastin g time pushing up this scholarship.

I The CH AIRMAN : I congratulate the hon.

Member on his sentiments.

They are exactly mine.


Mr. LEE : Here we have the Gov ernment complaining th at there are n ot sufficiently trained people for certain technical work in Government Service, and here on the other hand a majority of us are w illing to g ive oppoi;tunit ies to g irls to be qualified and this Council is saying we must delay a noth er year.
The COLONIAL TREASURER: The creation of a new scholarship for g irls must be formally made, The scholarship The CHAIRMAN: Put forward your resolution ancl we will t a.~~ it- m that :form.

l ., .

; 1415 Estfrnates, 1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Cowmittee 1416 somer� like the Chair­ is .saying, to Government early in the general Committee, that when we reach the Com­ that an additional should be provided.

When Mr. JACOB: This is what I quar­ rel about.


In 1943 the Advisory mittee recommended in the 1945 Estimates scholarship I was speaking debate the hon.

the Fourth Nomi­ nated Member, who is Chai-r­ assured man of the Advisory this Council item the money will be particular voted in.

Now I see a complete sault.

I see the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer man of the Advisory Committee, that it cannot be done now as regula­ tions have to be made.

Then the hon.

the ha:, Colonial to be passed.


to press it-in fact we cannot press it is against -as Government but I am going to ask Gov­ the amount, ernment to do what it can to let the amount come under a supplementary estimate scholarship Government it will do that, it will be satisfactory.

On the other hand the Chair has congratulated in Nominated scholarship.

I not having an additional am puzzled; the hon.

the Sixth Member on his attitude can be awarded.


If · this this Council that assures in 1945, so that the additional Well, sir, I am not going says a resolution introducing Treasurer I am amazed.

$180.

Mr. EDUN: To a point of conect-' ion !

The hon.

Member daes not com­ prehend that you are supporting a principle not rush things like that.

in advocating that we should The object in moving a vote here a scholarship girls.
is to provide alwie, and that would require tions to provide can obtain girls alone.

first in a scholarship w-der of merit, and that she coul::l get in July next year.· for girls regula­ for if she is pla,ced At present for a scholarship a gi,rl Mr. JACOB: The hon.

Member is a skill in the lawyer of the greatest Colony.

I do not blame him alone; I blame the Government, to aceept some choo,ses that is a matter for him.
but if he of the blame The COLONIAL TREASURER: I suggest that a resolution made putting on record that this Council scholarship of the creation for girls.

approves might be of a EDUCATION-QUEEN'S COLLEGE.

Item m-Al/.owance to Lib1·arian, Mr. de AGUIAR: I am sorry to have to.

do it but this question of my throat, so always tickles allQwances to speak.

I see a new item has crept in under this head.

It is true that the amount is only $180 but I do not know whether it will gQ up.
If someone on the clerical staff is performing the why should he duties of Librarian receive If he does not what else does look after the Library he do,?

an allowance?

The CHAIRMAN: I know nothing Mr. JACOB: That is what I quarrel about.

I want to have so..<ne Government policy.

giving this additional gives it an oppor­ the slightest tunity of not doing so.

I hope we will get on a little is not in favou1· better after now.

of and pretext scholarship, about it.

Mr. J.


A. LUCKHOO: I must the remark made by the hon.

in this matter at all.

I correct Member.

I have nQt made a complete somersault realize pointed ial Treasurer.

is an o:pel} f'ICholarship the difficulty out to me by the hon.

the Colon-·· time there fQr boys and At the present which has been was made by the Principal The COLONIAL TREASURER: I know the case very well.
A very strong request who assured in question, Secretary of the College, responsible tarial duties she is also Librarian and runs the College book the College, store.

She also took charge of the physical after the printing that the lady Government who happens to be the has a very her secre­ aspect of the Library, of bo,o� and so on.

job.

Apa,rt from looking of 1417 Estimates, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

Her salary · is on the normal scale of Grade B, and very low in the scale.
Government thought a good case had been made out for this special allow­ ance for looking after two libraries .

I am very glad to support it.

The CHAIRMAN: By whom has it been put up?

The COLONIAL TREASURER: By of Queen's College.

the Principal .

Mr. de AGUIAR: I am sorr,v-I cannot accept the explanation.

This is something question of allowances that must be carefully mind this is the thin edge of the wedge.

I formally watched.

To my Mr. EDUN: I SLlpport move its deletion.

that.

College.
that.

College.

Mr. LEE: As a member of the to Old Boys' Association I would like point out the usefulness of the Library at Queen's has said is true.

The Librarian �ot .

of work, and if the allowance is removed I suggest that her grade should be raised.

see her put on a higher grade.

I would prefer to What the Treasurer has a a College the In s•c,hool o,ther to all this she is now secretary and looks reports, matters.
to was in the first idstance and has been �mployed referred Class III clerk, at Queen's for many years.

She is more than an ordinary clerk., She is typist and private secretary, after fees, accounts, Library and several addition to the Board of Governors.

It is felt that with all these dutie.,;, Jhich are far more than those attached to an ordinary Class III clerk, given some allowance work.
It is a post which cannot he filled some time to get into the work of the College, and in order to keep her there it was strongly recommended Board o,f Governors pensation this extra work.

very easily.

It takes a person should be given to her for for the additional that so±ne com­ she should be by the The CHAIRMAN: Was this re- viewed by the Advisory Committee?

Mr. CREASE: No, sir; it went lo the Board of Gove•rnors.

The CHAIRMAN: Surely it should Committee.


have gone to the Advisory Do you flupport it, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. J.

A LUCKH00: Like the hon.

Member for Central Demerara (Mr. de Aguiar) I am also opposed allowances, but if the officer of an increas•e low down in Grade B, give her an in­ rrement or two.

of salary and she is very to these is worthy Mr. J.

A. LUCKH0O: I am against If the lady is worthy these allowances.

of an increase down in the Grade, give her crn incre­ ment or two.
of sa.lary and she is low Mr. deAGUIAR: I am afraid that The COLONIAL SECRETARY: This, I those Members who have spoken in favour of this item are not consis,teni.

Let us turn over to the next page and see the salary of the Secretary to the Bishops?

High Sohool who, I believe, looks after all the posting of letterR.

The maximum of her post is $720, while a Grade B Clerk in the Clerical Service cannot see any reason to allow a special allowance goes to a maximum of $1,200.

to creep in under this vote.


I You canrtot rectify is some­ by giving somebody in the b'rcause she job.

You like other allowances, what misunderstood.

the position Service a double increment happens to be doing a certain would create considemble because, transferred, a double increment.

in the cas,e Qf the Clerk of the Oouncils, practice to give s,pecial special duties.

It is really moi-e economical.

pay is transferred to this pos,t I do nut .


when that officer is she would have had it is the common As I said fo� If somebody wf th highe1· allo'fances discontent ;Mr. CREASE: As a member of the may B_pa1�d of Governors I be permitted to say th&,t the officer of the .College 1419 Estimates.

1945 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Committee H20 should be paid to but so long as a lowly these duties I see why an allowance such an officer, paid clerk is perfotming see no har,m in giving this allowanCP.
Members say '•Pay a person properly but not by way of an allowance.''

an allo"..ance it is more elastic is a more sensible I sav way·; and more economical.

The CHAIRMAN: I am going to Gommittee.

refer this back to the Legislative Council Advisory It seems to me that it should have gone there I will refer th,, in the first instance.

whole of the Queen's College the Advisory Committee.

vote to .Mt.
vote to .Mt.

cleAGUIAR: Special attention should be drawn to the fact that in thi,; particular Department pers-0ns there are two Department.

in the Clerical The CHAIRMAN: When I appoint­ Committees ed the Advisory I hoped that they would have• the whole business before they come before the Council.

of .

going into the estimates EDUCATION-THE BISHOPS' HIGH SCHOOL FOR GIRLS.

Mr. WOOLFORD: T have risen to ask whether it is Your "Excellency's wish that the estimates head shoulcl Committee?
also go to the Advisory under this The CHAIRMAN: I should say · There is very little on the "Yes.''

page.

The CHAIRMAN: We will refer ... both these heads to the Advisory Com­ mittee.

LANDS· AND MINES DEPAR'l':MENt.

Mr. WOOLFORD: A point arose and"" should in Finance applications · which the Treasurer J.

A. there are ma.ny dis­ the Colony which can­ there is nu Land Surveyo,r.

I during the discussion prom· Committee ised to take up with the Head of this Department.
It relates to the idea that the greatest enconragement be given to apprentices for the Land Surveyors· se-rvice.

I see the Head of the Department here and I think he will confirm the view thM frequent are made to hi& Department for survey work to be underta.ken througho.ut the Colony, his only reply is that· he has not the · avail.able staff.

There is plenty of and as the hon.

the work to be do,ne, Fourth Nominated Member (M1�.

Luckhoo) kno,ws.
Luckhoo) kno,ws.

putes throughout not be determined because availa,ble t;overnment may mention that a Land Surveyor who had a large practice has recently died.

I -refer to the late Mr. D.urham, whose surveys were regarded as being very accurate.

retired owing to age, is not in a position undertake more practice present are willing to encourage to become apprentices Service has been a considerable hesitation persons the pay should be considerably in­ creased.
cannot be decided because we cannot .tret a surveyor in the-Mahaicony to than he at I know of parents who There is also the case of a Government Surveyor· who, amount of to take s�ch that even without pay.

but there A caRe in the Supreme.

to visit the loc11.� i:n qno into the Service.

by Government their children and to enter the I suggest enjoys_ creek.

Court Mr. JACOB: I have·-.not been able to ·hear with advantage of wisdom that have fallen from the lip� of the hon.

Member.
Member.

all the pearls Mr. WOOLFORD: I see that the assistant," The previous the duties of a .

· clerical was "cleri.cal who could by transfer.

clerk is called Secretary.

designation but there is no person in the Service performing assistant from the Secretariat, duties these poor srirls have to perform.

The Director ficientl:v s-hould to the post should be raised.
of Education ed the position, be grad that fhe salary attached suy perform · the explaiI has suf­ and I I ask that to th0 Advisory -:.. · it be also referred Committee.·· 1421 Estimia.tes, 1945 14 DECEMBER, 1944.

-Committee 1,122 Mr. WOOLFORD: No pearls of wisdom.

I wa,s making a practical sng·· gestion.

If the hon.

Member would attend the Meetings of the Finance Committee he would hear all I say.
where we· sit cheek-by-jowl Mr. JACOB: I am e0nstitution­ Star Chamber methods, and of the Finance ally against I attend meetings Committee only when I find it very con­ venient to myself.

My whole make-up is against Star Chamber methods.

I gathered from the remarks of the hon.

Member, that he wishes the vote of this Department hope I am correct.

however, increased.

I that?

is increasing are easily 0f these officers are not given to farmers.

we must benefit from they cannot get those lands.


l do urge that since Government the salaries get some compensating these lands.

Lands which accessible In some cases they are locked up by certain when Gove·rnment whole question.

reasons List.

The officers have instructions bottlerl The time· has come must go into the That is one of the on the Civil List t0 keep these lands why I voted against interests.

the Civil up.
the Civil up.

The CHAIRMAN: Do you say Mr. WOOLFORD: I suggested p1"'0vision that adequate fol' land surveyo1'S t.he Government should be made to be employed Service.

in mean?

Mr. JACOB: Yes.

The CHAIRMAN: What does that Mr. JACOB: I have come to that Mr. JACOB: I notice that in the applications.

I of applica­ to that I, believe because persistent £100, s0 that we can safely for next year is Qi1' the I want to see On the of $6,480.
In the salary of of Lands and Mines oin the Civil List items under "Fixed Establishment" there is an increase addition the• Commissioner has been increased by another say that the estima,te roughly F,000, more in respect Fixe1l Establishment.

some compensating revenue revenue from rents for Colony lands in 1945 is .

$12,000, revised ii,ooo from Crown lands for 1945 is the ;,ame as that for 1944-$28,000.

increased Forests, due, I believe, balata, etc.

conclusion tions have been made.


I have been responsible for several have sent people to the Department Lands and Mines over and over again fo,r lands.

I can name the places-the East Bank of Demerara, Polder, and the East Coast of Demer­ ara.

Those lands are not given to the peop'1e-why, cases· the applicants the people who actually lands and have thei,r abroad.

I say I have a suspicion.

my previous statement cers have specific strong, the President, I have a suspicioo.
Lands and Mines, but that is to royalty estimate of less.

The estimated I don't kno,w, In sOJiue a.re referred I see ,'lame is anticipated that these offi­ instructions is t00 side I :rind that the estimateu I will simply say t'oat The CHAIRMAN: and o,bjection on timber, as against the is taken to it by the Canals powerful benefit.

,revenue revenue $13,000 for 1944- from to control those interests If Instructions frnrn whom?

Ml·.
Ml·.

JACOB: From the Secreta�·y I have always complained that use is not made o.f Colony sufficient and Crown lands which are available, and that applications Department time to att�ded to.

Thousands req�\\'e cultivation, are made to the of Lands and Mines from time but are not pNperly of people grazing and but through various devices lands for cattle of State.

him?
him?

TJiie CHAIRMAN: Shall ask j .... Mr. JACOB: I don't mind, made up my mind to speak very plainly I bave 1423 Estvm.ates, 1945 LEGISL_ATIVE COUNCIL.

-Comrnittee UU I am thoro.ugh­ this year and next year, i,f I am ,;till in the Council, because with Government's ]y disgusted We cannot make any progress.

are increasing expecting revenue.

the Colony into bankruptcy.

I say that plainly.

You are making no plans fm· the utilization methods.

You but you are not You are running of these lands.
salaries receipts Mr. ROTH: The estima.ted from F0irests, Lands and Mines for 1945 are about $14,000 higher than the revised estimate of ,revenue for 1944.

Mr. JACOB: I must excuse my hon.

friend.

I took note of that and said that timber was responsible for $10,000, and balata $6,000.

That is figure quoted by the more than the hon.

Member.

I must ask him to make sure of his facts before he attempts to me.

I have not risen to spe2.k correct on this matter haphazardly.

I have it for years.


It is unfor­ been studying tunate that the Hansard reports of the debates is some reason for not having thP.

pr�nted in reports of those f!ebates time, so that refe.rence can be made to them from year to ·y�ar.

I am very serious increase !Oconuts lands are the1;e. country cannot get lands.

Just imagine in .

� of 90,000 square mHes p1;opJe prod1.wt10� of rice, · livestock , and every kind Oif thing.

"l'he ·We want to , There are not available.

about this '.matter.


I do pot understand pro,test the methods this thing at all, and I strongly against of Lands and Mines.

I am glad the Commissioner· will be able to explain away satisfactorily.

is here; and I hope he the matter of the Department Mr. FERREIRA: I wish to m�ike I tbink the.

respects they overlap Department.

each fuUy when he said that lands of leasr.s, gr�ing, one generaL observation.
time has come when the Department of Lands and Mines should be amalga­ mated with the Forestry In several other, with the result that this Co1lony wastes several thousand dollars.

I think the hon.

Member expre::;,,ecl himself are tied up.

The question of land for cattle especially should ,be examined, and it should be whether the holders 0f ascertained such lands carry out the terms of those lea·ses-whether they occupy If they do no,t those lands beneficially.
then those lands should be taken a,vav from them ..

I , have in mind certai; places which should 1be known to the Depart!\1-ent of :J;..a nds and Mines.

1 am no,t suggesting that it is done with any , but I do not think there ha.v intention been any real investigation.

I lands which are .,not beneficially pied should be handed ove,r to those who con.id occupy them beneficiall think occu­ y.

At this stage the Council resumed and adjourned until the follmviu g day at 2 p.m .. ·-�--- ·•.,-�,I ·r· ., -i' /