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941 H.R.H.

The Princess [ 30 MARCH 1965] Royal 942 HOUSE OF LORDS Tuesday, 30th March, 1965 The House met at half past two of the on the The LORD CHANCELLOR clock, Woolsack.

Prayers-Read by the Lord Bishop of Manchester The Lord Sandhurst-Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

from your own personal But I ought particularly nursing, ; the Girl Guide ex­ to and I will not recount in detail the variety to your s and of her interest of causes that she helped.
Lordships the multitude Many of them will be known to your Lordships perience.

mention with gratitude the Red Cross especially movement ; the Army, in which she was Colonel-in-Chief both British travels the Queen-and an example did things, Caribbean -and finally her many interests North of England, Yorkshire.
as of the way the Princess Royal that in 1960 she visited every island of Her Majesty here I might mention, and Commonwealth abroad on behalf in the and particularly in of many Regiments, ; her in the Commonwealth H.R.H.

THE PRINCESS ROY AL 2.35 p.m.


THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing name on the Order Paper: in my Her involvement in any cause she took purpose to be anything shy and reserved, and she was like a figure­ up was never perfunctory never content head.
She was naturally and if some who did not know her found formidable, her at first a little they soon that she had a deep feeling discovered a great sense of humour and for people, a formidable and the grasp of the details of any cause that she essential espoused.

at ease She was completely with young people.

No wonder she was loved and esteemed and, above all, it was no wonder that Leeds University cellor.
she took out, and I am sure that all of wish to join me in your Lordships would expressing two sons of Her Royal Highness, profound beg to move.

and also to the our I She put much more into life than sorrow on this sad chose her as its Chan­ to Her Majesty, in Yorkshire occasion.
; be Moved, That an humble Address presented the · to express to Her Majesty deep sorry of this House at the great loss which Her Majesty by the has sustained the Princess death of Her Royal Highness on with Her Majesty Royal ; to condole this sad occasion, to Her and to express Majesty the dutiful which this House will ever feel in all that may affect Her Majesty and the Royal Family.-(The Earl of Longford.)
and loyal concern has sustained "That an humble Address be pre­ sented to Her Majesty to express the deep sorrow of this House at the great loss which Her Majesty by the death of Her Royal Highness the Princess Her Majesty to express and loyal concern which this House will ever feel in all that may affect Her Majesty and the Royal Family."
My Lords, as my Motion declares, Royal ; to condole with and on this sad occasion, the dutiful to Her Majesty the Princess and greatly condolences in common with another member of Royal.

The that affects Her Majesty the on the death of a respected anything Queen and the Royal Family is the im­ mediate concern of your Lordships House.
To-day, place, we join in expressing to Her Majesty our sincere and our warm sympathy senior her family, only daughter of our much lo·ved Queen Mary and King George V, Princess was seventeen broke out.

She belonged, the generation that ~merciless her many opportunities which soon became the pattern of her life-a life spent to a degree exceptional even for the Royal Family, service.

The surv,ivors will remember now just on fifty years ago, she organised " Princess sailor front.
when the First World War to therefore, that bore the brunt of struggle.

Mary's Gift afloat and every soldier 1915, how at Christmas, for activities Boxes " for every of the First War The war gave in public at the Mary LORD CARRINGTON: who sit on these Benches associate ourselves with the Motion which has been so well moved by the noble Earl the Leader of the House.

All your Lord­ know of the ships in one way or another My Lords, we would like to and self-discipline, and 943 H.R.H.
The Princess [LORDS] Royal 944 [Lord Carrington.]

to rthe demands on her time and her in a role which ifor very called She fulfilled and act1v1t1es a Royal P,rincess organisations and a great lad3/ sib.ould I shall not enlarge upon those fine our ideas of what This, I feel, She must have known how highly knowledge and hard work she put into qualit,ies.

in energies Royal took part, and much self-sacrifice countless which the Princess many of us will have first-hand of the interest them.
Yet I think it is true to say that the Princess Royal did not hit the head-be.

Bu;t there is one aspeot rubout lines and was much less well known than I think there is a particular one would have expected.

was as she would have wished it.

I do regarded not suppose that it ever occurred that she deserved what she did.

What she did, she did was greatly because it was her duty and inclination, and, in addition, duty because she was always interested whatever were wide and varied.
I for one, like person, many of my noble friends, particularly her cattle made to the Royal that she fue land, who that those who met her, and those she seemed to enjoy that did not have that privilege, all looked and affec­ admfration a beloved remember mother, who somehow held all those she was and apprecia,ted, but I have a that her own innate modesty or fame for hid from her the knowledge in upon her wi1h real she was doing.

Her interests that she the lowliest -in the land.


With our humble in the hearts of the highest and and in the many visits and positions tion, as a gentle and kind and lovable loved throughout to her feeling her interest gratitude in farming daughter and and sister for Her Majesty, syrnpaithy we add our Show.

In all rthese activities she will be sadly grief for ,the Princess's sons and for their which pdignancy.
I would pay to Princess whose families, and not least by tJhose missed, who suffer this great loss.

privilege it was to serve her.

Many years ago my mother had for a number BARONESS SWANBOROUGH: My of years the honour to be her Lady-in-Lords, the tribute Waiting and I learned ait first hand from Mary is as a woman to a v�ry great Royal was beloved Royal lady.

Hers was truly a I purpose­ her how the Princess by a strong natural by those around her.
As I have said, fule life, dominated by her jbelief of reward for any reserve there was 110 thought of ,the took part ; yet something very did emerge from those years of service That was the respect, tion and the •admiration whom she served.

I think she would were legendary have felt thaJt while reward.

among those who have far and that was the only worth-worked with her.

She travelled wide to fulfil public duties and never But the hap- thought s in which she the obligations of her birthright.

.
.

never to fall below it was her d1termined the love, the affec-aim.

Her of all those standing, in She ; and higliJ.est had only one standard-the her under­ thoughtfulness, and controlled countless important activ�tie of sparing herself.

above all her thor�mghness, that her contri- or in her rose garden.

myself and the noble She never counted the cost to herself, and as ,the late Princess Her honours were many, he� interests to Her Majesty.
Like many of bution was accepted with t,he humble she gave so generously LORD REA: My Lords, it is with a piest times of all were those spent with sense of loss and sorrow her grandchildren, as the normal out­ if I am not out of order pouring from a source that could be very sincere that I associate Lords on these Benches .
Address your Lordships, in saying so, I happen to be of roughly drawn on ad infinitum.I �he same generation Royal and her Royal brothers was na,tural that those of my generation As Chief Controller should follow with special information personal and individual this happy and devoted apart from their high posi,tion r _ap� duty towards public assiduit official respons1b1ht1es.
that the respect way of deep loyalty there was about the human, Chief of the British Royal Family, national been written and said matically characteristics of as President or Patron of tr.e major I leadership commanded generated which everyone and honour she auto- the bond had for tbeir This she did so quietly ; and it manifold Much has already interest and tbe)r about the modeM and conscientious herself her.
in which our Princess dedicated I and her responsibilities of the Women's what Royal Army Corps, as Commandant-in­ varied.

voluntary bodies.

she gave to the w�men of Gi:e�t Bri�ain.

and unobtrnswely Red Cross Society, 945 Tumlzouse Airport [ 30 MARCH 1965] (Edinburgh) 946 Those of us who had for Princess " Type of the wise who soar learned much from her to the country she them to the full.

We how truly her example Mary not only a great regard but a very deep affection serene dedication loved so well.
We learned from her that those who set standards can get them by living accepted shall never forget convinced that to honour an unspoken even more binding than wit­ sealed and signed or an officially nessed undertaking.

of the women of Great Britain is for ourselves.

I am sure that our gladness have had the honour to know and serve a very great lady.

those who worked with her is obligation an agreement The sadness is that we But never roam, True to the kindred Of heaven and home."
points describe of the noble life vhese lines !Perhaps fittingly the plan and purpose to which we now pay tribute .

May she rest in peace and, by the mercy of God, may she inherit King­ dom for which .our prayers ever make request!

that evedas't'ing EARL ATTLEE : My Lords, as one of the oldest generation, I should like to to 'this Motion.

Her add my support Royal Highness was good an extremely friend to me and to my wife over many vears.
My mind goes back 50 years ago, when a charming down ·to Salisbury stationed, trenohes ,we were digging.

ing young girl was ,the Princess At that early age she had come all that v,'ay to see how a new armoured division was getting to this Motion.

young girl came Plain, where I was and I ,showed her over the T,hat charm­ on.

I would add my support Royal.


Motion agreed to, nemine dissentiente: be presented to Her Majesty with White to Lords the said Address by the have himself THE LORD BISHOP OF MAN- CHESTER: My Lords, I know that had his Grace the Lord Archbishop of Can­ terbury not been abroad, he would been here to-day to associate with all that has been said, and to ex­ press on the Church's behalf our sym­ pathy for the Royal Family and our appreciation Royal did for the country Commonwealth.
House, prayers being of the Royal Family, and it is but natural a special off one of its members out of human sight.

that we here should feel sense of loss when death carries At every Sitting of this are offered for the well­ of all that the Princess On Question, Staves.

and for the TURNHOUSE AIRPORT (EDINBURGH) 2.50 p.m. Royal her­ A familiar face will no longer be seen on our great and Regal occasions.
I do not think that the Princess self would have chosen the great posi­ tion ,which she occu'pied, as been ·said, retiring more gratitude exemplary all her public duties.

fold they were 1 In these, right up to the end.

for she was, 1by nature.

All the is due to her for the out way in which she carried And how mani­ she was active as LORD FORBES: My Lords, I beg leave to ,ask the Question in my name on tJhe Order Paper.
,whioh stands [The Question was ,as foHows : To ask Her Majesty's what plans are .in ex,i:stence pliated for providiing at Turnhouse Edinburgh.]

Airport, Government or contem­ a second runway the airport for where she The manner of her LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the case The years dealt kindly with her, for she seemed to grow in serenity, charm and quiet beauty.

Deeply attached to a second main runway at her family and to Yorkshire, made her home, she will be sadly missed in that wide county.
going has been strangely quietly, she has quickly, slipped away, with a good day's work well done.

for providing Turnhouse the present with the prevailing wind is strong, aircraft diverted the number of cancellations and diver­ sions for this reason is very small.

Last year they were fewer than 1 per cent.

of all actu·al or planned flights, cancellations and diversions causes whioh would not ·be removed by cluded one of his Christmas line on The Wordsworth's by quoting Skylark.

to it as a referred Vol.


264 runway tis not wehl aligned wind and, when the may ihave to be unobtrusively.

characteristic: King George VI, con­ rests on the fact that Her brother, broadcasts Wordsworth due to other and flights whereas Airport Q cancelled.

Howevf',r, [Lord Beswick.]

947 Retirement Terms in [LORD$] Basutoland Service 948 LORD BALERNO: My Lords, I that thought the noble Lord implied traffic was not increasing I very rapidly.
of Aviation was not implying LORD BESWICK: No, my Lords ; I that.

of an alternative long run­ the provision were four way, suoh as bad ¥isibi!lity, times as many.

My right ihonourable is there­ friend the Minister fore not at present conv,inced tihat which ·on a second runway, expenditure to £3 is estimated ,to cost £2 million would be justified.

million, the line for a new runway is being safe­ He recognises guarded.
may well be justified the timing of its construction Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question on the growth of traffic, on operational, which stands in my name on the Order economic Paper.

course of discussions Corporation, ownership transferred.
was as follows To ask Her Majesty's RETIREMENT TERMS IN BASUTOLAND SERVICE and on the with the Edinburgh LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My to whioh it is hoped that the Nevertheless, and other factors, that its provision of the airport d.n due course, [The Question must depend w,ill ,soon be 2.s3 p.m. but l : LORD FORBES: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply.
I should like to ask him whether he has taken into consideration the fact that city of Scot­ is the capital Edinburgh land, and that there must be few other cities capital runway.

Secondly, aware that pilots of Vanguard very much dislike Airport, seldom that the wind is dead to land a big aircraft like it is difficult the Vanguard landing owing to the fact that it is on and in Europe with only one is the noble Lord at Edinburgh unless the wind is right?
planes npw treated Service are can improve Government the terms whether they under which non-designated officers in the Basutoland on retirement.]

I UNDER­ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (LORD TAYLOR) : benefits My Lords, the matter of terminal for non-designated is still being considered.

ever, that it will be possible schemes providing the near future.
I · for these benefits · I hope, how­ to announce in officers in Basutoland LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I do not and this is one of the matters between us long of another think there is any difference as to the desirability runway, which will no doubt come up in the take place between the discussions that So far Corporation are concerned, as the difficultie my information rate as big a menace as the s of pilots is that sea mist is at any and the Ministry.

cross-wind.
cross-wind.

LORD BALERNO: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it is true that the rate of increae house Airport cent.

per annum?

is of the order of 20 per in traffic at Turn­ officer and a non-designated answer?
And will Her Majesty's LORD FRASER OF LONSDhl.E: My tWs matter, between Answer is lj>etter than in considering Lords, while that a* leave to and I therefore a negative thank the noble Lord, can he tell me when to get a more I may be in a position positive Government, bear in mind that the difference a designated officer is really he was recruited vice he has rendered done?
Indeed, gories do exactly being so, will the Government can be done to equate the "b9wler hat " provisions to those which have already for the designated a question rather than of the ser­ or the job he has many of the two cate­ the same jobs.

That do what types?

aJ to where types been agreed for the non-desigriated the order.

But it still remains LORD BESWICK: My Lords, that is possibly a fact that has to be taken into account that the loss of revenue of thes½.
because something capital new runway would be of the order of £200,000.

for further diversions like £2,000 a year.

The annual So there is obviousl consideration.

fees in landing amounts to charge for the provision y cause of a LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I do not think I can go so far as that, although between I accept that the difference officers depends nated and non-designated in large measure were recmited.
a question on the place !where they I recognise which arouses deep that this is desig­ feeling, 949 and I hope to make an announce­ Census [ 30 MARCH 1965] Order 1965 950 regu­ In due course, THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My and so do the Government, it will be possible ment in a matter of weeks rather than months.

stage in the process.

ba.ve to ,be laid covering lations precise details of the Census questions, including the actual sulbject to the Negative procedure.
Lords, will Her Majesty's Government, in considering bear in mind what my noble friend Lord Fraser of Lonsdale said : that the bas already equally with the designated, undesignated, have devoted their lives to the country which they served, sharp differentiation would be unjustified?
1will ,be novel in two : it will be quinquennial, any and therefore between the two forms of return, •and these are The 1966 Census Resolution this subject, in­ The case for a quinquennial in view olf 'the .ra1pid distribution, is overiwbelming.

be a 10 per of the usual These proposals over a .to your Lordships 16, 1963, by the Newton, and •there was oif them at the time, particulars and it will'l stead of decennial, cent.

sample Census, instead complete enUIIlleration.

were announced year •<!


!go, on December noble Lord, Lord some discussion tihough they were agreed to be �eneraHy acceptable.

Census, popula:tion housing, a sample Census is, •I think, Jit more thoo ha:lv·es million (which is w11.at the fuli Census would cost next year) -to £2¼ milfron.
enables two years much more quickly-lWithin the years�and of ,well over four instead is such degree of a:ccuracy figures w.ill that relia'ble for the country as a whole, and for all the areas where !f.he main problems of larger are social and economic likely changes in employment and The case for the main res,ults to be obtained development be available .of �'he results the cost, !from £5½ equally to adse.

stwng.

It LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, all the points in this matter will be con­ relevant sidered.
PORT OF LONDON B]LL [H.L.]

Read 3•, and passed, and senrt to the Commons.

CENSUS ORDER 1965 2.57 p.m. to rweary account.

Tihe mther un­ LORD TAYLOR : My iLords, I beg to •in my name on fomn of tJhe Or,der arises from the of the Census Act, 1920.

This move the Motion standing the Order Paper.


I have a great many Census and about the data about the ,to 1bhis Order, but I do not background propose with a your Lordships very detailed u:suaI provisions Act ,provides (which on t:hi:s occasion by whom and April 24, 1966), the ,persons are to be m.ade, and aibout whom returns mus't be to ,be collected, uhe information prescribed by Order in Council, Sl]bject to the Negative Resolution way.
the ordinary The Act ,also aHows of tlie Census wiH be Sunday, that the date rpr.ocedure in informa­ additional tion, beyond ohat S1pecified iirl the Aot, to items but these additional be collected, iby both Houses of have .to 'he aipproved Resolution.

Parliament All by Affirmative Affirma­ tihe items in the Order requiring 2 to the -are 1in ScheduJe tive Resolution Order.

There are nine of nhem, thc11.1igh some are :suib-div out fa italics I tihink non-controversial tical rutillity liife.
There is a further in Ar,ticles it wiH ibe found •that they are an and of obvious ,in our sociaiJ.

•ided, and :they are set 2, 7, 9, 10 and 11. and economic Parliamentary prac­ The IO per cent.

sample method was, in the 1961 Census for education , with a total about sampling from out carried of less than 250,000, where and many vailuable were learnt.
A pro­ for the new sampling in fact, applied questions about occupation, and migration, lessons pre-test cedures to be used for the present differ considerably Census-which in 1961-was those employed last April and proved quite satisfactory.

There will, however, be six relatively small areas in Scotland population will be counted the population These are areas where special studies listed they are areas of depopulation, method would yield too low the sampling figures.
The two exceptions William and the town of Livingston.

Unless your Lordships propose method, nor shall I discuss routine items the Order.

and they are 3.

With two exceptions, of the sampling the more in foll.

economic are in progress, of information covered by wish it, I do not in Schedule to discuss details are Fort where Vol.

264 Q2 951 Census [LORDS] Order 1965 952 [Lord Taylor.]
The nine special items for which an whether of the in the Resolution who are not related The first covers to the head is, are required are those The second seeks to measure within the last address Affirmative as follows.

persons of the household investigated-that a person in a for example, hotel is a guest or a member staff.

These are all italicised Schedule.

the extent of migration five years.

In 1961, the person's one year before the Census was asked will for.
This time the same question but his or h er address five be repeated, years before will also be asked for.

This may be a little people to remember but they will have time to think cisely, things over, and to talk things over, because livered later.

Moreover, time when the previous Census returns were filled in.
for some and to answer the forms are normally de­ on Sunday and collected this is precisely a week the difficult pre­ T:he third iitem clears up a problem will be counted, which arose in the 1961 Census about the Then, only number of rooms occupied.

a btchen used for meals counted as a with cooking room.
This time sculleries but kitchens facilities used for meals will be counted The Census in this country Census ; it is also, by a population and the next Census, tradition, the same which are virtually three items, as in 1961, ask about house tenure and ownership, facilivies.

·and cooking and sanitary is not merely a housing separately.

question 11.

This deals with technological There was J a similar, in the 1%1 Census is Article Resolution higher education.

more limited, covering qualifications.


This to cover all higher educational qualifi­ I do not think I need argue cations.

the imporrtance of these ue\\j items in detail, but wish.

your Lordships I 1shall be happy to do so if is now being extended and scientific 1 I discussion to fertility.
fertility occasion Your Lordships may remember ,that on most of the relating the last questions concerned There are none of these special questions The reason tion obtained mented by -the annual returns Registrar to include General, these questions There are only two more points that of the so there is no need informa­ in 1961 can pe supple­ this time.

in ,this quinquennial Census.


is that the necessary First, witl be trans­ been tested questions have already the formidable ; and some of !these sim­ and properly qqestions to Departmqnts would have alrieady been to make sure that they can understood Many possible I ought to mention.

list of items in the Schedule Jated into as simple a style anµ language as is possible plified ou the public be properly answered.
which Government have liked answers simply because excluded could not understand a vague idea of the answers.

point is this: the Census is compulsory, but it is also confidential.

Worthwhile results lic, so, as with previous thing will be explained sible to the public are asked ; how the sample questions is drawn, and how confidentiality achieved.
can come only from a willing pub­ every­ Censuses, as tupy as pos­ them, o:r bad only in advance: some people The second why the is by employers, and the policy.

in transport We come now to Article new item of the Census, 9(e), an and one and There will be a•bout car ownership entirely with v.ital importance town planning questions use of cars made available and about where people keep their cars about employment at night.
Questions have been asked since the very beginning of Census-·taking are covered one, in Article one, inquires -obviously importance.

Another in 1801.

Most of them by the main Census Act, but new l0(c)(iv), about the journey to work a matter of growing question, lO(d) (which is not, however, Resolution), to Affirmative Article subject with people having more than one job.
The final item requiring new employment an entirely Affirmative deals in Those who wish to do so-lodgers or 1 disclosure in hand their forms br Census for improper by anyone employed in a house-may guests direct to the enumerator officer.

Census returns are used for only, and1 there are purposes statistical heavy penalties of information making the Census.

General of individual ments or, indeed, is, then, no reason be unwilling vital work of Census taking.
fewer than refused to other depart­ to anyone else.

There why any citizen fJlly in the to co-operate.

to co-operate citizens : In 1961, Th* is clear should details does not give recognisable The Registrar one in 75,000 householders that the answers to that that people realise Census [ 30 MARCH 1965] Order 1965 953 evidence Census is something sary, and something of the field play their full part.
staff will be more exteusive than ever before, will be laid and more emphasis on the need to win the co-operatio the people sampled.

that the that is entirely neces­ in which they should Training to that question in 1961 As I fact the answers were not particularly it, in this next Census a understand kitchen will be counted room in the house if it is used for cook­ ing ; and for the purpose decision not the kitchen for eating purposes.
of making that it will not matter whether or is ever used or scullery or scullery I beg to move.

954 n of as a Moved, that the following parts of the satisfactory.

Article Article Article 9(b), (c), (d) and (e); IO(c)(iv); 1 !.-{Lord Taylor.)
3.8 p.m. Second Schedule Order 1965 (laid before the House on the 4th March) be approved to the Draft Census : - In Article 2, the words " or other person by whom the return is made, or position establishment " ; in 7; Article In Article 9(a), scullery, the words "and whether if there is it is used for a kitchen or meals"; has But the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, I certainly the Parliamentary of Health did, in another with the 1961 question.
this, but his honourable to the Secretary place) to us that the question about going to be asked, for the (the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, explained meals is still purpose did not explain friend Ministry of making comparisons As I answers to the similar it is have just told your Lordships, ques­ admitted tion in 1961 were not satisfactory, and I cannot see any particular reason for time the answers believing that question will be any more satisfac­ tory than they were in 1961.

This then is the point.


What is the use of com­ paring two sets of unsatisfactory mation?

Perhaps the noble Lord can later on exolain apparently that next iflogical infor­ to what is to me an proposal.

hope that the taking of Censu,s will, Depart­ gave consider­ to this in the past when I e operation.
I Office ; but I am not entirely that it is to obtain it, though I was to hear from the noble Lord this first ever quinquennial in ,the event, turn out to have been a worthwhil able thought had a good deal to do with the General Register convinced that it will so tum out.
I know that many Government ments are very keen to get the informa­ tion, and I am quite certain worith trying interested that many questions to ask will not be asked because would not understand feeling Census would fully serve the purposes many of the Departments that want the questions asked, and thait, of course, would be open to many objections, of which one would be uncertainty about the tolerance It is evident which they wanted peopl� ,short of a biennial of the public.

them.
them.

I have the that nothing of place of March 18 that the Joint another Under-Secretary Mrs. Hart, has not any doubts about this.

I think it is in order for me to do so and I should like to quote some of StaJte for Scotland, Q3 LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I should the amount of background my thanks to the noble for the brevity and with which he has explained of his Motion.
For my part, I agree that it was not necessary us with the con­ like to express Lord, Lord Taylor, lucidity purpose certainly for him to enlighten siderable mation on the matter which he said he had available.

I should also like to express ing to us why the House has to signify its approval Amendments as the Order itself is sufficient.
I certainly of comparatively minor to the Order where, so far to him for explain­ my gratitude is concerned, silence infor­ have no objections to voice to the kitchens to that question also that there will be a to any of these Amendments second Schedule, but I wonder whether there is really much point in asking and sculleries are used whether that a good many for meals.

I daresay of the answers will be, "Yes", and a good many will be" No", but I suspect good many answers times " or, "For some meals."
more, this particular question in almost exactly 1961 Census.

Then the use of kitchens for meals was the criterion decide whether to be counted the house.

But we have been told-and admitted-that I think it is readily by which to was or not the kitchen as one of the rooms in which say, "Some­ Further­ was asked the same form in the in Vol.

264 from the proceedings in 955 Census [LORDS] rLord Newton.]

Mrs. on this point.
Mrs. on this point.

of her observations Hart said: " ... it seems to me that the public reaction is much more that of sligbt be the one in ten selected Commons, Vol.

708 (No.

81) col. 1637, March 18, 1965.]


She wenrt on : not to annoyance REPORT, ".-[OFFICIAL "From a slightly different point of view, something one is in upon them, so one is encouraged of educating the public in if one of this kind and demand, one can use the one is not trying to justify imposing the whole process the use of inquiries has an unsatisfied emotion that unsatisfied demand quite confidently inquiries, a very satisfactory 1638.]
And right at the end of her speech ,the honourabl has created to go forward with further if one wishes to do so, which is e Lady said: position to be in."-[col.

1642.]
1642.]

... "-[col. informa­ of giving " I think that the public likes learning about to give itself and enjoys the opportunity information Lt may weH be that there are those who enjoy the opportunity tion about themselves, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, will take it from Government, Majesty's me that there are also a great many who do not enjoy :the opportunity.

should have thought pute that many people cordially having to fill in long and complicated forms.
it was beyond dis­ but I hope that dislike and Her I Order 1965 956 the confidential ,pface the Parlia­ to the Ministry of on this point of in another nature.

Mr. Loughlin, to preserving In it!he debate mentary Secretary Health, the confidential " .

.

.

stages as absolutely confidential."

Shortly his speech he said : -[ col. 1625].


nature said this: the census returns are tre�ted at all after that, in the qourse' of and completely "There are penalties for people refusing 1625.J making false unless how does "X," a or not " Y " has know whether " X " consults " Z," he is committing " Z," who is presumably of " Y " and whom he to know the true answers.

If to make returns or wilfully returns "-[col.


This is my question: member of the staff of the Registrar General, made a false return a third person, a neighbour expects " X " does consult One cannot have a breach of confidence.

it both ways.

Is then the penalty for making false returns just a bit wi1fully of bluff?

If not, what is it?

I recognise, that the noble Lord, Lord of course, can make a "tu quoque" retort Taylor, Afl I can say in advance to me about this.
is that until I read what Mr. Loughlin said in another place previously occurred think that those are all the observations I need make.

the point had not to me.

My Lords, I I I LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I shall I also hope that the Government will that (and simple Refusal his points.

May I in this country should size Lynn, who was so concerned of confidentiality?
is, as the noble Lord of information that he couples the actual suggestion not accede to a further was made in the same debate in another place, by the honourable Member for King's I shall not do more than paraphrase him) about the insufficiency about fertility that married suggested be asked to what extent of their families intentions, what measures to try to achieve to what extent their efforts had been The only other comment I successful.
would make about this suggestion is that I do not share the view of the honour­ able Member for King's Lynn that the vast majority too willing infonnation.

do mv best to answer the noble Lord, Lord Newton.

I thank him for the clear way he has presented start at the rear end of his speech with the question to make returns says, a perfectly in a very small number of cases, with people who are cranks.

these people have been prosecuted past and almost always the prosecution has succeeded.

happens.
happens.

form a minute percentage sad when thi� but such people of the total.

the form that tbe(e is some­ about it, that it just does they had taken their intentions, It is rather It is inevitable, of people would be only to give that sort of thing and it arises usually coincided with their With regard to a person making a wilfully on examining thing peculiar not look right and does not ring true.
and proper for Then it is perfectly right to rettj.ro to the the Census enumerator house to see whether wrong, but I would not sugge;,t moment that he should go I snooping around asking "Z" if what 1" X" has may I ask the noble Lord one relating of the answers question give?
nature to us very carefully the He explained attach importance which the Government to the confidential there is !something it may be apparent which people false return, Finally, ; Some of for one in the and Census \[ 30 MARCH 1965 ] 957 said is correct.

and, indeed, improper quite unnecesary.

I think that would be most that it would be LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I am Am I not right in sorry to intervene.

thinking who has to complete hand the form enumerator, of it?
not know the contents that the householder to a form is entitled to the envelope does so that the enumerator in a sealed or anyone LORD TAYLOR: It is where somebody There is a later.

directed for proper filling the office from which that experience in that respect is working.

check ; there is a follow-up so that the house­ else is making a return holder does not know the contents of it that confidentiality comes in.
The form is checked in when it reaches the enumerator further survey which takes place a little This is primarily to seeing that the sample itself not so much is satisfactory, to seeing that false returns are detected.

I would emphasise over the years has been that people do not in fact falsify ; they do take it returns seriously.

were made and that false returns believed there was nothing wrong in that, the whole of the Census procedure would be brought people do realise its value.
In a,ddition, all households sampled will setting of t�em a�d W?Y they have been picked; I think this will help to ensure their co­ and I do not believe operation, will be any trouble.

a circular what is required which are going to be in advance receive out quite shortly to a state of farce.

In fact, If it were to become widely there that people frequently in general.
take place agree with her With regard to the noble Lord's re• friend Mrs. of people who are I think Mrs. Hart was about social surveys marks about my honourable Hart and the attitude not selected, speaking May I say that I entirely that where social surveys it is the experience to ask why they have not been selected give their opinion on this or that or to give information Buf with regard to a Census only time can show ; we can only see what happens and whether people resent or not being selected.
there will be any trouble go perfectly smoothly, noble Lord thought proposed being selected I do not think ; I think it will this sample Census.

about this or that.

as I take it the when he himself His third point chens and sculleries.

to kit­ is in relation He is quite right.

Vol.

264 Order 1965 958 the kitchen or scullery because it In the 1961 Census used was : is the room We want to know how many rooms there or scul­ are in a house.

Does a kitchen lery count?


There are two possible cri­ teria for counting as a room : is it used for meals or is it used for cooking?

the criterion used for meals?

This criterion is not satisfactory may leave out rooms which are used for cooking, and this produces We must ask both questions so as to get a bridge in order that the results parable.

ing a mountain is a perfectly give an inaccurate picture kitchens used for meals.

are com­ I think the noble Lord is mak­ out of a molehill fair question.
here.

It It would if we excluded false picture.

this time and sculleries which are not of the two Censuses an entirely Lo RD NEWTON: My Lords, I am sorry to come back to this.

May I call to the noble Lord's attention honourable friend in another happened He said: what his said in this connection place when talking about what in 1961.
It is jn column 1622. obtained the decision comparison this problem or scullery because by family as a room if it is used with the 1961 the information satisfactory will still be necessary and this can be only by finding out whether kitchens was not was habit rather th.i.n to It is proposed a in 1966 by counting " .

.

.

altogether often governed the size of the kitchen.

overcome kitchen for cooking, but statistics obtained are used for meals."
Faced with this admitted from this ques­ the information tion in 1961 was unsatisfactory, why does the noble Lord think the information tained in 1966 will be any more satis­ factory?

compare two groups of unsatisfactory information?
What is the point of trying to obtained fact, that ob­ LoRD TAYLOR; The information was last time, as I understand because were not the two questions unsatisfactory it, because asked and because in fact some rooms which were perfectly adequate as rooms they were not used were excluded the count of rooms for meals, Therefore, was false ; this time the count of rooms will not be false and the comparison will, I believe, done my best to answer the noble Lord's points.

completely.
completely.

go off perfectly I will not say I have satisfied be perfectly and I hope I have him But I think this Census will satisfactorily, satisfactory.

Q4 [LORDSl Order 1965 960 959 Census [Lord Taylor.]

your Lordships approval.

will give the Order due the landing areas of many women are compelled and in many slum is better more airy, than the My BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: a point may I ask my noble friend It seems and kitchens?

Lords, about sculleries state of affairs.


to me quite an amazing Do the people who compile these ques­ tions know that in the congested the country to cook on the landing, dwellings more comfortable, scullery, which in the old days, of course, may have been built simply for washing friend in a big copper?

Would my noble tell me, therefore, if the cook­ ing accommodation perhaps landing precisely will be scheduled?
there will be a feeling There is another better will be scheduled the way that the little than in the scullery, ls a room in If they do not do this, is' on the landing whether, scullery lighted, the is not a a landing With regard by my to the point raised Lady Summerskill, noble friend certainly will not count as a room even if it is used for cooking.

It room, and the object is, of course, to the number of rooms.
I agree rwit.h assess her that there are where cooking But the basic problem number of rooms, and not to enumerate the place where cooking a room.

a number of poor houses takes place on lthe landing.

is to enumerate is done if not in the My BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Lords, in that case should not the noble Lord define w,hat is a room-that not a landing, -and say ,bhat a little kennel, with a stone floor and holding gas stove, habitation?
it is off place like a dog is not a room fit for human partitioned or curtained a LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I think this is making a mountain hill-- out of a mole­ LORD NEWTON: It is making a out of a landing.

kitchen thing.

Apparently for her cooking-which of discrimination.

is an point-this now it will that the woman who has been amazing be implied using a scullery may mean only that there is room for a gas stove and a few saucepans-has been rather and, indeed, in her house which has not been used.
I would ask my noble friend this Census will Perhaps these matters.

the honest not give the true information, information informa­ and the comfortable tion which the noble Lord is seeking.

with her accommodation, that there is another to consider wasteful room LORD TAYLOR: It is making a out of a landing.

kitchen is parititioned off, then it may conceivably be a room.

But if it is not partitioned off, in my yiew, without advice, counted I would say that it should not be as a room.
taking expert If the place BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, would the noble Lord say whether, people have in a large house, and look upon it as their dining room, that is or is not a room?

their meals in a large hall if this answer without LoRD TAYLOR: My Lords, I am seeking is a giving but I should say that it certainly room if it is used for dining.

advice, LORD MAcANDREW: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord about cost.
If the work Taylor, to one-tenth bas been reduced and the cost by only a half, surely there is some­ thing wrong.

a question with the any further.

proportionately this ,was dealt wi�h fully by the LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, the cost The computer costs and operate; is not reduced size of the sample.

much the same to acquire the staff is not reduced Indeed, noble Lord, Lord Newton, to give slightly different which I gave.
One wishes that it were but it possible is not so : it does not work out •that The overheads, Census rema:in size of the sample.

LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I do not want to bully the noble Lord or the Government But, remember­ ing the last Census, I think that people proportionately.

are a little about the term castle "rooms".

in which there was such an enormous room, with alcoves, it made at least nine different by a door or any­ out any separation thing else.

That is one extreme.


of no house in this country be treated I have known of a house which was a as it were, of running disproportionate which would like that.

On the other hand, to reduce automatically, when he had from those way.
a to the I know of a Polish puzzled rooms with­ figures I know on the ground floor that of a high tower, only by a winding with no amenities 961 House of Lords [ 30 MARCH 1965] Offices and room after portion room was reached staircase, could not possibly it could be used only for refugee People have been quite puzzled shelter.

to include whether return or not, as for practical the rooms were useless to analogous Lords.

this in the Census be used for living The Committee The Committee purposes as such.
at all.

It grades 6.-ESTIMATES in ; 962 of the staff of the House of in eight awards under the Super­ increases Acts.

annuation sanctioned consequential LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I think as use­ the fact that a room is regarded less as a room is not an excuse for not !

calling out in the Census will not be carried Poland.

it a room ; and, thank goodness On Question, Motion agreed to.
authorised in the Estimate the consequen­ for 1965-66 and tial increase the increased provision The Committee approved for the year 1964-65. for Peers' expenses.

Estimate a Supplementary 7.-DEPARTMENT OF THE LORD GREAT CHAMBERLAIN authorised The Committee of additional Lord Great Chamberlain's Office.
8.-RETJREMENTS the employment temporary assistants in the The Committee sanctioned the payment of the following the Superannuation Acts:- Superannuation awards under HOUSE OF LORDS 0:iFICES 3.33 p.m. Order of the day read for the consider­ ation of the Second Report from the Select Committee.
The Committee's Report was as (a)Pension Mr. A. E. Green, Custodian his final retirement and additional allowance to Fireman, on 1965. on 23rd February, to Mrs. L. Shortland, Head on her resignation on 31st (b)Gratuity Housemaid, January, 1965.

(c)Gratuity maid, on her resignation ber, 1964. to Mrs. S. E. Henry, House• on 13th Decem­ follows: 1.-LlBRARY 9.-PALACE OF WESTMINSTER CONTROL AND The Report from the Library Sub-COmmit­ CusroDY tee for the year 1964 was laid before the Committee.
2.-P!CTURE OF THE House IN SESSION A coloured now available price ; proofs will be displayed giving circulated reproduction for sale to Peers at a reasonable of the picture full details.

and a notice is The Committee considered the Palace of Westminster a Sub­ 23rd March, and have appointed to consider Committee problems administrative make recommendations.
and report upon the of the House and to the statement made on Tuesday, on 3.-HANSARD INDEX The Clerk of the Parliaments informed from H.M. Stationery of the present by the publication the of a of a proposal Committee Office for the improvement system of indexing cumulative months*.

this proposal 4.-LORD CHAIRMAN OF COMMITIEES index at intervals The Committee be adopted.

of four to six recommended that Motion agreed to.


THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now considered.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, sanctioned of the Lord Chairman with effect from the 1st April an increase in of The Committee the annual salary Committees 1965.

5.-REVISED SCALES OF PAY The Committee of the following sanctioned Establishments the application Circulars:- Classes.

(a)E.C.

28/64 Clerical (b)E.C.

29/64 Principals (c)E.C.


30/64 Executive (d)E.C.

31 /64 Central (e)E.C.

6/65 Typing Grades and Pro­ &c. Classes.

Pay Increase.

ficiency Allowances.

(!)

E.C.

5/65 Conditioned hours of the Messengerial and Paperkeeping Grades.

*Should be weeks.

See col. 962.I *LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, I am import­ paragraph, There sorry to say that there is a rather in the third ant misprint Index.

Hansard under the heading be "weeks".


should the word "months" should be: The wording "at intervals I regret which I noticed to move that this Report be now agreed to.

If there is any point upon which any information I further noble Lord wishes shall be glad to try to provide it.

I beg only this morning.

for this mistake, and apologise of four to six weeks".

Moved, That the Report be now agreed to.-(Lord On Question, Motion agreed to.

Merthyr.)
Merthyr.)

I 963 Cereals Marketing [ LORDS l Bill 964 DANGEROUS_ DRUGS BILL [H.L.]

House in Committee (on Re-commit­ ment) (according to Order).

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, this Bill has been amended by the Joint Committee tion Bills.

I understand Amendments afternoon.

that I report out further amendment.


have been set down for this The Question, this Bill to the House with­ on Consolida­ that no further is therefore, Moved accordingly, and, on Question, by his predecessor which led the skill and fully acknowledgel:l readily and patience displayed in office, in the negotiations to this agreement.

I am sure your Lord­ ships would like to record I a similar As would be expected acknowledgement.
the Bill I enjoyed with this background, dur�g its pass­ wide measure place, and the age through another which were made agreed Amendments have meant to the original be afforded in your Lordships' draft.

I trust that t�e Bill will improvem�pts a similarly of support useful happy treatment House.

1 Clause 1 provides for the!

establish­ a Motion agreed to.

House resumed : Bill reported without further amendment � Report received.
RIVERS (PREVENTION (SCOTLAND) POLLUTION) OF BILL Read 3a (according and passed, with the to Order), and returned Amendments, to the Commons.

CEREALS MARKETING BILL 3.37 p.m. Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

Cereals includ­ members and the important interest and Deputy Chairman the general national of ; nine members to repre­ of produceis, s who feed grain to ment of the Home-Grown The Authority Authority.
will be to made up of three elements-three five independent I including the Chairman who will represent interest the consumers sent the interests ing those producer their livestock; represent The Authority dom body and the members will be appointed by the three Minisths sible for agriculture The Bill as acting jointly.

countries, did not provide published originally for representation of growers' expressly in Scotland and I Northern interests Ireland.
your Lordships I believe welcome the specific provision which has now been made for this.

in their I respective will be a United King­ and nine members to the interests of the trade.

respon­ will LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I beg ; it will encourage Bill tions in the certain and efficient and demonstra and storage of these cereals, defiued carefully to move that the Cereals Marketing be now read a second time.
The object of this Bill is to make possible the more orderly of home­ marketing It will lead to the creation grown cereals.

of a valuable system of market intelli­ gence for the growers research handling and it provides trading Cereals are magnify­ many newspaper ing the differences the farmers, or some of them, and my right honour­ able friend the Minister we have here an example which the Minister forward plans to give the agricultural more sound and profitable to work.
powers for the new Home-Grown Authority.

headlines between with positive At a time when so basis on which of Agriculture, of the way in is quietly pressing and constructive a industry The Bill is based upon and implements an agreement the farming cerned.
with last September interests con­ has friend My right honourable reached and trading phasing a better Much has been first main objective coming on to the market scale under the seasonal I Incentive 1 deficiency to , encourage The Authority's will be to encourage of supplies throughout the season.
done already, for wheat and the Barley Scheme as part of the cereals payments arrangements, growers to hold their grain off the market for varying But there is still a tendency at certain shortages supplies at others.

in the interests mercia,l supply and matched.

need ; they provide livery will be coming at what times supplies on to the market.

For tµis reason of growers I and com­ users alike, to ensure that times and.
excessive There is I still need, and thus enable it to be known demand are mbre evenly of time.

towards Forward contracts specific fi periods d tes of de­ meet this _and will be for schemes handling research to provide wiU be able to mcent1ves Bill 966 The Authorit and demonstra­ and with the storage a market informa­ sche�es �or w�eat of for:vard c<?ntrac�­ Marketi11g I 30 MARCH 1965 ] of forward contracting.
y will be empowered, o make arrangements for who are pre­ and this should be of the The to growers in respect and as soon as 965 Cereals the encouragement ing is given great prommence m this Bill.

improvements in the Authority will also under Clause 6 to under­ value to farmers and traders.

will also be able to take over, the valuable work of Working Party under the of Sir Charles N�nnan, the system of guide pnces.
Authority tion service, greatest Authority if they so decide, the unofficial chairmanship to continue Apart from encouraging trade procedures, be empowered take or promote tion in connection physical This would enable them to promote the development and to encourage the physical condition under Clause 2, to prepare bonus payments of forward contracts, after their establishment possible required to prepare and barley.
The financial which the Authority th,e offer should do much to encourage development Toe clause will also enable the Authority t loans to those growers pared to enter into forward contracts.

This will help growers who_ coul<;i not otherwise the market.

It was part of the Septem­ that information ber aoreement about made by the Authority loans to growers should be made available safeguard merchants to farmers.

There was a good deal of discussio way of giving effect to this.
The amended wording of Clause 2(5), no_w before us, was generally accept_able m the other House as implementmg September agre�ment but,.

at the same time, safeguarding the pnvacy of the grower.

Authority's powers under Part I of the Bill.


These powers could on their own, bring about and should, significant of home-grown that a situation although the price of imported supplies was held by the minimum import prices, the market price of our own grain might fall below the fair equivalent of those prices after allowing for the �ormal quality, .bandling tials.

II of the Bill is designed in certain clearly viding, stances, for the exercise by the Authority.
and transport which Part This is the possibility to cover by pro­ defined circum­ of trading powers and stora�e m other nnprovements and the interests and others providing of agricultural credit in the marketing But it is possible improvements cereals.

So far I have been dealing with the afford to hold their gram off might still arise where, to their powers under distri�ution of bulk han�ling non-trading collection, place on the best of home-grown n i,n another In addition cereals.
differen­ in order to the of home-grown supplies.

at specified times and facilitate will the Authority to growers for bonus payments of of the form of con­ Clause 2 to encourage forward contracting, be able, under Clause 3, to bring in schemes linked to deliveries the year, irrespective tract.

Our experience Scheme has shown the value of Incentive arrangements of this kind.

The will be under no obligation schemes these would be schemes to provide accordingly.
to their able under Clause 2 they will be under Clause 3, but if they find a useful adjunct with the Barley Authority to introduce and demonstrat1on mar�et of better second main objective The Authority's will be the promotion intellige nce, research and improvements need not emphasise prompt and accurate the state of the market and the prospec!S ahead in enabling growers sales over the season to the best advantage.

in trade procedure.
in trade procedure.

I of the importance about information Clause 6 will enable the to plan their These are reserve powers and the them would have If they in seeking that the powers days unless approved powers on the of the would lapse after forty by each carry out the objects could make an initiative to come from the Authority.

could satisfy Ministers were necessary to of the Bill, Ministers order conferring trading Under Clause 8(6) Authority.
Bill the Order would come into force immediately, but sitting House under the Affirmative Resolution This provision procedure.

gives effect to-the agreement September.

The Au!hority to weigh the factors carefully and Ministers selves But, if that position clearly Authority out delay, but without prejudice were established, would be essential for _the to be able to proceed with­ to in the Bill reached last _wou�d need very g Ministers.

that th.e case had been made out.


them­ would have to satisfy before approachin m the s1tuat1on it Marketing [ LORDS] 967 Cereals ', [Lord Beswick.]

proper Parliamentary necessary Affirmative Resolution.

consideration of the The A uthority would be free to buy period, anc;l they would have when the average market Under market grain -only price had been below a prescribed level for a stated when the average to cease buying price had risen above that level.
level would be Clause 9 the prescribed relevant mini­ from the a price derived mum import price after due allowance and transport handling for quality, of the trading The purpose differentials.

powers would be to :help further, necessary.

requirements year.

Under Clause 11 the Authority would be required grain they had bought, within a same cereal year or at latest This provision is in­ montih thereafter.
tended to ensure that there is no carry­ over of stocks from one year to the next, which could only serve to disrupt the market in ,the following of supplies over a particular to dispose either of all the the within the matching if and cereal season.

of the Bill 968 Their decisions pres­ will show functions functions.

in annual on;lers the levies, and for each kind of cereal.
will be embodied cribing separately how much is attributable to and, if any, the non-trading Thefe orders to the trading would be laid before Parliament would be subject procedure.

lecting from the cereals growers.

for this and also provides, occasion of direct Authority.
to Negative The normal methdd of col­ for the arise, collection the levy would be by l:Ieduction The Bill sets out the machinery alternative method of the levy by the Resolution deficiency pa¾ments sliould the and to As I have said, the Bill gives effect of action of all the a programme with the production, market­ the and trade interests.

It em­ which bas primarily interests to an agreement reached between farming bodies the support concerned ing and first-hand grown cereals.
represented Authority to count on their good will and 1co-opera­ wi11 m:i.y well prove tion.

This good IWith this the Authority's 1co-opera­ good will, and constructive tion all round, there should result bene­ fit and advantages traders processing pf home­ These interestp will be Grown Cereals willl be able on the Home and the Authority to all-producers, and consumers.

I beg I to move.

greatest asset.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.

-(Lord Beswick.)

sup­ growers.


to bring about marketing The greater provisions.

-of the improved I turn now to the financing This is dealt with in Part Authority.

III of the Bill which also contains The main bene­ plementary ficiaries which this Bill is designed will be the cereal pait of the Authority's therefore At the same time the Bill will authorise my right honourable Exchequer Authority's administrative penditure under Part I disbursements and loan guarantees.
contribution of the Bill, excluding on bonus payments, to make an towards the or other ex­ will on growers.

is dealt with in Clause 12. on their non-tradin actual loans g activities contribution The Exchequer by levies be raised revenue friend 3.50 p.m. for the first time LORD ST. OSWALD : My Lords, I to the noble Lord, Lord of the Bill, him face to am grateful Beswick, for his exposition and I am happy to welcome this Table face across on my part.
The fact that his former industry is now in the aviation experience to agriculture is not as being applied as it might at first seein.

They curious are, in fact, the two most adiventurous and technologically advanced and neither in the country, appears couragement ment.

However, from the present to be getting a great deal of en­ Govern­ is an exception.
to-day when we were debating Last Thursday lindustries of them the market development noble Lord, Lord Champion, light prompting pleased compliment for some little to be able to pay occahonally Gbvemment scheme, the after a little from me, said that he was thing which the� did, by to the previous a before purposes Under Clause 13 the Authority will of each the beginning if any.

The effect of Amendments their year, to submit to Ministers of the amount required to be in that year.
on growers estimates for non­ and for trading pur­ be required, cereal estimates by levies raised There will be separate trading poses, made in another place is that the Authority .estimates, ment of the amount or amounts between the different grown cereals.

Ministers will have to submit, proposals for the apportion· kinds of home ..

It will then be for to determine the rates of levy with their shown as " 970 the to intro­ I recall Neither " matter.
notably, However, were filled, Quantities, the present as a " little the previous in this case they intentions parentage.

marketing.
marketing.

the telescope of this bequest, by the determina­ the third agreement of agriculture, then it became possible he will have yet another both agricultural Marketing [ 30 MARCH 1965] Bill to which the the Bill has Bill It seemed to me last week that he of my right honourable that when in Opposition in a form also which had to which did not emerge marketing, has for instance, Lord, Lord one of by agreement and through the in this.
It is admission of the the Now it becomes a think, There is nothing, I from a shower of gold.

It in the last weeks of August cause for in the form of the present of which has become the Now, 120 hours Bill is, in fact, of that main achieve­ It is a child of truly were Standard new to our own industry, be agreed upon by the unions on behalf of our own producers.

these could be obtained without the other.


Once they were achieved, duce a system of more orderly as the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, said, and the present the promising child ment in cereals.

distinguished 969 Cereals which he meant some bequest the present Government fortunate beneficiary.

later, pleasure which also concerns a trifle curious should regard marketing matter.

the noble Lords now occupying did not regard market­ opposite Benches ing as a " little " matter.
Columns of Hansard by the noble and indefatigable Stonham, in catechising me, quite pro­ made this Bill possible perly, on the Government's like Jupiter regarding marketing, was achieved and horticultural.

and part of September " little tion and patience unexpectedly inconsistent friend Minister, purely a Parliamentary noble Lord who introduced way in which, when examining already tribute, paid graceful for which interests I thank him.
that When one remembers Administration reverse at this time my right honourable friend peer with great absorption was lying in hospital wrong end.

However, with his legs suspended have not chosen to change seriously in considerable scale or structure Members of this House would be pre­ presented pared to pay him particular tribute.
It was a time when most men would have out of any sort of effort, contracted the special political For some years our support system had himself, been under an increasing strain, resulting of agriculture, and with­ in ever great�r deficiency drawal from his duties was not in his stood to reason, though character.
of those days was sometimes room that much of the negotiation observe the reason, place which bore fruit in the agreement made up the difference 22. signed on September guaranteed world price of grain would become intolerable hand, the efficiency increased, remained an unJimited grain producers honourable therefore character as applied modities, modern conditions.
cereals remember, My Lords, many people, as the noble Lord has said, contribut ment, and to all of them the industry and the consumer But I think it is worth alluding to the of the wise and broadminded trade to this original proposal.

The Bill that the grain will be sold at the ensures maximum price feasible the size of the crop.

At first sight, would hardly seem to be to the advantage of the trade.
But the encouraging of those discussions of all to appreciate of this common and the basic objective interest in the Bill has been retained now before us.

Better marketing everyone, that those representing interests distinctive a twofold two quite separate, chains of negotiation.

controls, this country, upon by our various or otherwise.
as he always has, as the servant such inactivity equally There were import new conception for loath to that a system between the and the would have to be adapted This was done for while on the other, we market for the operation with delicate, was the willingness a common interest, as, on the one of our own growers individual are able to see that, determined of our support It was, in fact, in his hospital last year, as noble Lords will in time for the Price Review.

to some agricultural of this achievement.


which had to be agreed well the background that the open-ended on pulleys with a broken pelvis.

and unrealistic friend the previous ed to this agree­ price to our farmers to Parliament.

of the world.

My right the Opposition with regard to pain, I think most But, regarding a completely There suppliers.

It required payments.


character I remember approach Minister com­ to system, at least aspect suits which this took as now and and the and It but it does not always happen may well give thanks.

971 Cereals Marketing [LORDS] Bill 972 that of the ed it for a how this appears or fuller I have not dis­ BesV{ick, ih describ­ was boµnd to be perceived frequency is satisfied while sitting manifesto.

improvement to be just a trifle to ourselves.

[Lor:d St.

Oswald.]


said the Minister I am not going the prescribed by the Government.

as if they had some in the market.

His noble ; but if the Minister in one direction, at least to me.

Perhaps assur­ l'he noble I should be glad if the noble who feed gra:inl to their that in the Bill.

If I am wrong, the work already done.


men­ ex-officio Bench, and in this particular in his last Thursday, gratitude reflecting of the noble Lord, will benefit from the obtained since he qualified " pleasure, level ; but I thought his I do not want to be down, I have one or two to ask the noble Lord.

The congratulate the noble Lord across the thereby.

to score Party points by apparently giving they themselves general that the noble Lord, Lord tioned those animals, place on the Authority.
covered I shall be very glad to be corrected if not, I wonder whether will undertake will extend some hope that, �t a later will be stage of this Bill, this omissiop preferably rectified, Thirdly, ; but the noble Lord to look at this point and in at this juncture_ from that of a com­ differed the beau-ideal lev�l was a I it be!ter.
The money, as !described by painting conception modity commission, Suffice it to Labour Party's say that, in this instance, they the wisdom of our approach and turned to good account I sincerely and his colleagues, Floor the pleasure Lord Champion, glow of political I would say, however, it as only an ·· occasional he will now have experienc second time within two Parliamentary with days, and to expect to win approval on that greater particular Parliament, optimistic.
Before sitting Lord could be clearer ing the point at which the !Authority would intervene friend satisfied with this year's Price Revief, as he this is an alarmtng appears to be, otherwise.

ance rather than Lord in fact gave more of an explana­ tion than that, I am aware.

He mentioned the prescribed description-and unfair-of cloudy, little ought to have understood of raising process in breathed cated, that this it would interest instead in what circumstances commission im­ propose even be set in motion.
questions in general, farming industry, great sigh of relief conception havi,ng a commodity posed upon it.

It will breathe more easily, tell us to-day, Cereals this Bill, will not become a kind of sub­ commodity office of a future If that particnlar and truly laid, then farmers able to enjoy a deeper and more tranquil sleep at night, well earned after their day's labour.

or levies are required research.


purpose, visualised ment, but it carries, of duplication researoh stance, National at Cambridge, My second question concerns the enough to v,isit during my own term of office ; 1but there are others doing equally all fully ,occupjed.

I am sure that many wonld thank the of my noble friends that tihe noble Lord for an assurance Government against the nine producers' position Bill reaches another of nine N.F.U.
members- less than one from Scotland Northern Ireland, pointed out�nine members.

three independent I have to ask concerns members who at present, it, are to represent the growers exclusively is to be no one specifically of cereals, the feeders \o be some oversight My Lords, I end by saying again that we like this Bill.

We •felicitate the noble Lord upon its introduction.
I should Hke to think t:hat ,to-morrow I I shall be uncritical, but the able to be equally more I study the Price Revi�w White actmit, t:he Paper, I must mournfuLly including not and one from as the noble Lord from the trade and if the noble Lord would that the Horne Grown to be set up under 8, 13, 15 and 16, is compli­ though I think necessarily com­ As the itself.

in as I understand statutorily and there seems here.
I am aware a Qn learning institution, tihe of Agricultura,l Botany which I was 1fortunate on certain occasions This •is a most praiseworthy in the original agre-e­ $e danger of course, with other and overlapping for in­ us after its Third Reading that this whole proc�ss will be on their guard so, but better of that remarkable ·any duplication us to underst�nd of the Authority the Government representing The other purpose I am thinking, would be adopted ghost could be well commission.
the Authority The question of cereals.

There is for market Institute will consist of their efforts.

Authority, for whiobi bodies.

Clauses place, would be would the levy and of important work, under the jurisdiction authority.

Marketing [ 30 MARCH 1965] Bill 974 as · of of imported Book, it merits and its later progress you can effectively towards from support House.
It for a trial period, tioned by the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, the Statute all sides of your Lordships' will serve a purpose but in my view it is only a stop-gap it covers only home-grown products kind, and leaves us still to a certain some extent at the mercy and compe­ tition cereal.
I do not believe meal with the marketing cereals imported and organisation This Bill takes one step, but we may find that the next steps are the more impor­ tant and effective in the future and for the and consumers' betterment and pros­ perity of our food producers.

and can are organised, parties interested look after themselves.

deal piece­ difficulties of the conditions we do ones.
Whatever home-grown of one cereal interest, must be done in the national together without joining of and Other The noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, I do not want to trespass of cereal experiences The noble Lord, Lord St. mentioned the debate which takes place to•morrow.

upon what may be said or discussed then, but now that a start has been made for the the improvement marketing door is wide open for extending our future products.

Oswald, noble friend briefly, same.


The question of market intelli­ and I am gence has been mentioned, wondering will be what procedure adopted, will be used, to notify of the markets, prospects how they should sell their grain advantageously.

to my put one or two queries who is to reply, and, very I should like to do much the or what method farmers as to the or when and 973 Cereals harder I think this ever, to-day he may wear his inherited halo with welcome and well-deserved panache.

!is going to ibe.
!is going to ibe.

How­ 4.3 p.m. LoRD WISE: My Lords, when I put that the -noble particu­ my name down to speak on th-is lar Bill I notiiced Lord, Lord Digby, was to make his maiden speech on it, and I was hoping that I should have the opportunity him.

However, on the -list, I want to assure very warm welcome in your Lordships' House, as so many of us knew ihis fat>her and respected him very muoh indeed.

was •an old friend very glad to welcome his son.


My Lords, the Minister He of mine, and I am as I am in front of him has explained of followiing him of a and but I gather standards It is perhaps marketing At the moment, that efficiency The improvements by this particular marketing.

of this particular Bill, which of home­ it appears and other farm products and subject unsaiti&factory perhaps and sometimes In most fluctuations.
stability are, for the most part, a matter the purpose is to improve the marketing grown cereals.

that wheat and barley alone are men­ that later on, or even tioned, when it comes anto operation, oats also will be included.

fore­ Bill are long shadowed overdue The market­ in cereal ing of cereals is unreliable, to week-by-week, even day-by-day, llgricultural orderly unknown.
wonderment has been maintained, when one remembers part of the farming the manipulation 01 buyers on the farm or at the granary, who very often -pay no heed rto the wel­ fare of the ,producers can prosper through If other businesses the same haphazard marketing others, we should become.
Agriculture at the expense their l1ack of knowledge were carried on in way as agricultural and even increased, that an important is left to business of grain market bidders and we aJ.1 tried to score off business of some in farming of others or toil.

what a discredited if they themselves from this and incompetence marketing for all times in living memory.

I hope we are at last about to remedy the deficiencies.

Here is a Bill which may bring about improvements What­ and disposal.
marketing in cereal ever may have been its inception or its distinguished and stability inefficiency parentage, has suffered as was men- nation to registered (perhaps The question of the levy has also been and I am wondering been dealt with) whether to.

As has been said, the pro­ to tihe levy is very diffi­ It refers referred cedure in regard cult to follow.
growers, it has already the levy will registered sell their products Authority suggested certain wondering matically when profits are made or whether be raised on all the only on those who ·either to the or to the merchants.

It is also that the Authority may in and I am make a profit, ,seasons whether imposed the ievy will be auto­ year in the particular those growers or of circulation into other agricultural 975 Cereals Marketing [LORDS] Bill 976 [Lord Wise.]
The second 1group have 1what might be con­ a portion possible buildings producer.

of the purchase �nd therefore why it would not be in �he particular facilities, wi,th much to store limited profits will be put on one side and used fund.

Has any h a reserve to establis es,timate been made as to what the total annual amount of the levy will be?

only to the farmer, and This Bill refers the levy a1pparenrtily the farmer alone a,t the present time.
I am wondering to join the merchants amount of the levy and let them share with the farmers of the levy, so as to ease the burden which may fall upon the " Heath Robinson " teruned ,existing verting their and litHe expense ingenuity od' grain •On the floor aud in saoks.

amounts Provided 'they have a ,reasonably refers also to harvest quired store until itshe iprice glut; ibut, due to high moisture vermin troubles, •they are unlikely able Ito store for more ;than two or three mon.rhs Ohristmas.
T•he third, dry and the considerable labour re­ this group can to move 1he grain, .uhe harvest rises after and to be of cereals has also been raised.

The question by the Authority If the purchase has to be made and the .
grain stored for any length of time before it is resold by the Authority, I wonder what arrangements for storage few comments I should like to make on :the Bill, but I commend ,the Bill and hope it will have a quick passage House ,through your Lordships' and so reach the Statute early date.
large group, an increasingly have ,invested conside11aible in dry­ capital As they can ing and butk storage for store indefinitely, time of sale is a financial offset the cost of .their against and any Government Once in �hree or four years the ,price of barley due to ithe American farmers lfeel, ha:ving that :rhey must retain big return in certain until lt'he Spring.

barley eme11ging pattern in your Lordships' stream in Autrumn, a steady trickle ,in mid-1Winter rush iwhich is very hard to 1predict.
to the wishes of the is the case this year, Many dock Slrike.

invested price rise on tihe market incentive the chance of a years by holding LORD DIGBY: My Lords, I am pre­ will be mad� Those are just a This is contrary their only criterion which I thought of a torrent rises high-as purposes.

a ipossible Thus we see the ·plant.

Book at an 4.11 p.m. red'l,\cing and a fina1 di9posa] payments.

at iharvest, th!!

capital, to a one.


'I1hey must bank ov.erdrafts must sell before my first words deny that title, facing House wi.th a declarat ion.,.

of interest.

as a While I have not been elevated would " barley Baron " and, indeed, vehemently cereals marketing as a typical affects West Cou:n:try grow cereals, and I sell .cereals, millers, buy back those cereals .grains brewer's Cereai!

,growers or and then J: change my hat and I in fae form of my activities in that I or dairy cake for my cows.
ei1Jber ,to brewers mixed d'aruner, I dry cereals, I store cereals 1price, possible or storage themselves who must sell causing and offering yet is in very genuine at the mercy of ,who, vhough making ,in'to :t'hree fall rnugihly rhere are rhose >.vith no facilities, a time consequently groups.

First, drying at harvest glut, leaving the corn merohan:t, the most of ithe situation lowest difficu'lties from the combines.
tha,t there .i,s an increasing these farmers bearing large stocks draft and tlhat ·the capital u,p in a grain drier can ,be used d'or the of livestock.

purchase It is worth noting acceptance 'the best policy, dn mind that .they are not carrying 'in coping with :tbe vast flood by a 7 iper cent.

over­ are following otherwise financed that tied the of cereals and the exhortations say, very reasonably, to take all unless they can quantity of a predictable compounders Governments.
They that they cannot be expected the ·home-grown be assured evenly spread over the season.

For several exhorted forward but the forward I have tried this, offered ·has never been high eqough to constitute the seller.

contracts in my selling price.

years the Government have us to arrange gamble for In fact, the only two I forward that I have made have resulted grain at £2 below the current contracts.
price a reasonable The bonus payments and loans in thus of cere1tls, them to use all supplies the job of the tr!

;lde and of home­ that But let us remeT?ber Part I of this Bill should go far towards out deliveries levelling simplifying helping grown cereals.

these loans and bonuses must I be paid for and that it is the grower wHo has to pay, not the trade and not the l Govern­ will be paid ment.
In faot, the bonuses 977 Cereals Marketing [ 30 MARCH 1965] Bill 978 of These virgins" at the expense who have spent all on grain driers, " who have spent capital on livestock.

who will be penalised, by low prices at to the " wise virgins capital the "foolish their available are the farmers not only as at present harvest a levy to subsidise ture of the "barley quite right in terms of orderly marketing and bala,nce of payments, accept that anyone can be foolish prefers grain drier.
wards " to ensure that it does not artifi­ cially it gives raise the price and because them some stability I welcome it as a help to the Govern­ ment to keep down deficiency and to effect the maximum saving on the balance home-grown of the grower, of a stable tion required bargaining a herd of cows to a .gleaming time but also by having to pay to strengthen Barons ".

This is of payments framework but I cannot the capital for forward Finally, cereals.

position.
position.

expendi­ 4.20 p.m. his weak and the informa­ on behalf who payments I welcome the provision planning.

by full utilisation of LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, when I saw the noble Lord, Lord Champion, .

notice ·that I was going to ask him a this morning and gave him lating and pleasure opportunity to which I hoped he could question, reply at the end of this debate, I did not know that I was also going to have the unexpected the noble Lord, Lord of congratu Digby, on his maiden speech-a most speech.
lucid and knowledgeable I am sure that ma1w of your Lordships who knew his father much better than I did (I had the pleasure of knowing him but not very well) will be delighted to know that he is following guished parent's that he not:,.only has a real interest in but obviously has also had agriculture a wi'de ·experience of it.
I hope that we shall often have the pleasure hearing The noble Lord has been skilful in choosing majde,n speech, because receive satisfactory answers this afternoon, of putting which occasion I hope that he will put them with still greater force.

to his points a chance them again to-morrow, him again on many occasions.
in his distin­ in the sense to make his if he does not he will have this occasion footsteps, on of We may well find that this Bill will put Again, of West Country an end to the attempt their income in dairy farmers to maintain and wages by the face of rising cos-ts growing a few fields of barley.
it may well be right that ,the less efficient producers stock ; but rest assured of grain these farmers harder to force an increase a gallon on milk announced Minister, puters of the Mille Marketing halfpenn should revert to grass and that if forced out will fight even in the penny by the com­ Board to a which is reduced by the y. with of these This Bill sets out to help growers will take to take advantage loans ; but this is steps to encourage schemes, limited capital schemes by providing of no use to the grower who cannot dry and store.
I hope the Authority co-operative positive drying and storage so that it is who pay the only the unenterprising and marketing, penalty of harvest-time not the smaller of farmer with a shortage capital.

Lordships a later date to permit the Authority make loans to bona fide co-operative grain drying syndicates tion of grain drying and storage If the Authority the object plants loans and the Authority good security.
in achieving on these these should be ample for servicing I would ask your an Amendment of this Bill, the return Consequently erec­ to encourage to consider succeeds would have a plants.

at to I am optimistic that enough to believe as I take an unfailing for market in­ of may be the best safeguard Clause 6, which provides telligence, small producers, joy in each new year's crop of stories about Russian barley coming in with " snow on its whiskers the " to depress price.
Thus I welcome this Bill as a to help millers measure because use cereals, and farmers who it "falls over back- I should like to follow up one point in regard to the problem grower.

I wonder whether in his speech, of the smaller the noble Lord, in his reply, us any idea of the size of the levy and the amount of the bonus which the Government may have in mind.

I know that he cannot say acqurately, but what­ ever be can say will be a great helo, particularly to the smaller can give grower.
about which I The original question the rather roundabout spoke to the noble Lord this morning concerns of Clauses reading agricultural this Bill knew a little background, 2 and 3.

Unless anyone about the he might drafting 979 Cereals Marketing [ LORDS] Bill 980 [Lord Inglewood.]

4.26 p.m.

I a scheme the problem left out two If wonder what it is all about.

The draftsmen Government words-" oats" and "Scotland".

both of these were inserted in the Bill, would be much clearer.
the intention If, we should pass at a later stage, a scheme of oats in oqe part covering of the United Kingdom, may I ask the noble Lord not to assume that he has met the problem by authorising oats which covers Scotland only, because South are as much a crop immediately of the Border as to the North.

From oats, the area is the point of agrowing really one, and it is thoroughly bad administration different ment action, stration when there is no good reason for so doing.
It has happened all too and I hope that the noble Lord will see that, if there is to be a separate covering cludes are important the Border between England and Scotland.

by Govern­ forms of admini­ North and South of the Border oats, at least its boundary all parts of the North where oats not just follow to provide, and does scheme often, in­ LORD BURTON: My Lords, may I knowledge he on most of the points and the noble Lord, Lord Wise, to this debate and how lucidly it.
I had not intended to the noble also add my congratulations Lord, Lord Digby?

I was very pleased to see the considerable brought he has expressed to speak, bas commented I wished to make.

However, important re-emphasis.

the ordinary against anything However, be horribly Board, and we all know that this wretched imports.

imports to farmers that I think they will No one will argue against qr, indeed, marketing board, one.
to appears Board has no control over Even with of potatoes, comparatively the price available trying the new Authority like the Potato Marketing to establish they are so small can fall catastrophically.
there will be In the case of cereals stand cereals now since I have been listening My second and third points, which Does My third He made the very of 21 or 23 is the most elli­ what the noble Lord, Lord which I think is large enough to be likely and would be much more effi­ have arisen to this debate, are both very short.

the noble Lord really think that an Authority cient?

Is it not much too large to get any business What I done speedily?
should like to see is a body of 12 or 15 members, to cover all the interests affected cient and speedy in action.

point follows Wise, said about importing and in the future.

good point that we cannot consider also con­ without home-grown sidering from overseas.
it would be more appropriate be­ Lord left the answer till to-morrow, cause I am sure he is going to be asked many questions Party's mind if the noble Lord does not say anything this either or to-morrow, this afternoon will try to tell us bow the improved marketing arrangements imports country tain extent dependent.

from overseas, is, and always will be, to a cer­ will link up with on which this of his about the outlines agriculture afternoon, if the noble policy.
cereals Perhaps imports but I hope that, he I shall not 4.28 p.m. imports, is done to give us at least will be notice of what cereals we can be given any idea of contracts How can we to us.

Will I seasonal as the noble Lord, will be available have a potential of what will come in1 and will and there­ considerably greater fore I feel that it i,s most important that something advance coming into the country.
I wonder whether what notice will the Authority knowledge they be able to pass this on ,to the grower?

Otherwise, Lord Digby, said, forward be extremely difficult.

possibly make forward we do not know if there i,s going to be a sudden influx of Russian Then the wretched have to meet the cost of it.his Authority.

!_shall could tell us how much this will be.

My noble friend Scotland.


we are allowed 1llight be felt that this representation fairly pf grain small for the amount and I have been asked grown in Scotland whether having another.

that under1 the Bill one member, but it -is Lord Inglewood farmer will once more would !consider the Government be very pleased contracts, if the noble Lord referred I believe grain?

when to ....J Tl-IE MINISTER WITHOUT, PORT­ FOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): M} Lords, this has been a useful debate.
I am grateful to my noble friend for having moved the Second Reading of !this Bill for me.

The noble Lord, !i,ord St. Oswald, started with tl�e usual him and myself.

exchanges between I 982 that little Market Develop­ Committee, I ,think in my place to-day, ,to say against conducted Marketing [ 30 MARCH 1965] Bill right to say that it was a matter.

Here, we these: they on a friendly last week 981 Cereals have nothing are always basis.
When we were talking about the Agricultural ment Executive I was surely comparatively have a bigger question.

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his exposition of the Bill, because to what completely explained I see the exchanges between the " ins " and " outs "-and I have seen it happen a few times now in another place and here-the more I think of it, looking down upon it as from .a great height, as, Plus i;a change, plus c' est la meme chose.
in the light of what actually I think that in this connection mentor in this matter of Parliamentary ·<!xchange, would, I am absolutely sure, if he were standing say: "Let us see how we get on, and having seen how we get on, then take the decisions happens."

this approach same time, I recognise do, that somewhere linking on to the home market and the import.
The last Government recognised this -and, indeed, with the cereals to this coun­ try ; and we shall have to see how those arrangements that were then entered into will work out.

the fact, as we all there has to be this up of the amount of cereals going whait he said, added was said by my noble friend, has the Bill.

The more entered exporters is the right one.


At the into agreements that take place fact The noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, then that my approach quite to that, because LORD ST. OSWALD: Keep to that!

LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I am I to-morrow not keeping imagine will not be quite so friendly as it is to-day.

I feel sure that I shall have the answers Lord may make, and I may be able to toss back a few remarks be quite so friendly.
I would pay tribute rt;o tbe points the noble which w.ill not to the work of Mr. Soames in this matter.

I know that he conducted many of the negotia­ tions while he was still in hospital and that took a bit of doing.

I would also thank the merchants for .the way in which -they have approached because they might have thought this Bill was against they decided with the noble Lord in the tribute he has paid to them.

to come in ; and I join them.


On balance, this Bill, that ; and in feeders for some flexi­ will have direct to there) But I should think there is no on the Authority, The clause of the Bill to this matter (and the noble asked me whether representation what capacity.

which refers Lord will know that they are specifically referred provides bility.
doubt that there will be this representa­ tion ; in fact, the Bill actually the feeders be for the Minister imagine number of people who Authority so important cereals aspect of farmers as the people who use their own grain for feeding.

The noble Lord also asked me, as did other noble Lords, what will be the amount of the levy.

that he will leave out from the It will in this connection.
will form this and I cannot to decide, mentions a section of the LORD ST. OSWALD: I did not ask The noble Lord asked me whether this even­ in future appeared was to become a sub­ commission to be set up ; and the noble Lord, to think that new Authority office of a commodity tually Lord Wise, clearly there ought to be some such commodity commission established would have control as over the home Lord, Lord Burton, seemed to me to make precisely the same point, for a commodity commission.
The noble Lord seemed to ask me to commit myself at this stage to something so.

The late Lord Morrison whom I regarded over imports, market.

The noble who spoke last, of Lambeth, of a on this.

I am not going to do which as well and was arguing as something that.

I agree that the noble Lord's friend went a long way to explain and I did not criticise explained explanation vention of the point at which inter­ it.

I merely asked would be made.


for a fuller the way he this, noble detailed LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, this is a rather point, and I should pre­ fer to deal with it in Committee, if the noble Lord will raise it then.

It is a difficult point, commit myself on the matters raised.

However, his speech, with the answer when we come to the Committee stage.
and I should not like to he has I will carefully study and I hope to be prepared On the question of research, it seemed to me that the noble Lord rather hoped 983 Cereals Marketing [LORDS] Bill 984 [Lord Champion.]

I am of this Bill, will would not overlap that d by other bodies ; and not, I believe, wander in the main, be confined that the research being conducte he is right about this.
But surely sure that he, having to some extent accepted parentage that the re­ know that it is the intention search shall, to distribution, storage and like matters: It will certai,nly into the wider fields the noble Lord men­ tioned, which are properly cultural that this will not happen, case we shall frown on any unnecessary overlapping cover all the in the interest marketing with it.

nection the duty of the agri­ sure body.


I am fairly and in any and will not go into matters and the arrangements in this field, while hoping to of the whole cereals that is necessary research research in con­ about this.

The to consider to levy.

This will will decide with the work they have Authority be a matter for the Authority in connection to do.
The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, also asked a question fact is that sitting will be the reoresentatives people upon whom imposed, of course, that the levy is not too high for the purpose think they will be adequately in this respect.

guarded on this Authority of the very the levy' will be and it will be their �ob-and, for which it is des\gned.

they will do this-to I safe­ ensure LORD BURTON: Surely they will be very much in a minority.
be seven of them as opposed altogether, against There will to twelve, them.

regard.

I and they will be seven in this LoRD CHAMPION: But the fact is that they will be seven upon whom the levy will be imposed, the important do not have the same sort of fears in this connection Lord Burton.
I do not think the will make too high an impo­ Authority sition there will have to be agreement the Authority, eventually as has the noble Lord, upon the industry, because clearly within will and the Mini�ter have a say in this °'atter.

The noble Lord, Lord Wise, asked to bring in the point, elsewhere.

later on, such as oats, there will inevitably market in cereals.
as com­ that this to the fact and unless about controlling The noble Lord, Lord Wise, raised the point about wheat and barley being in the Bill as at mentione d specifically it, the As I understand present.

will have power to make re­ Authority to the Minister presentations other products which have been mentioned The noble Lord also raised I have said, about the commodity He referred mission.
could only be a stop-gap, you do something imports a difficult give him the same answer as I have given to the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald: that we shall have to see how we get on, and in the light of experience take any necessary decisions.

The noble Lord, Lord Wise, also asked me a bout market intelligence is to be notified the sort of matter which the precisely will have to determine.

They Authority will have to make their own arrange­ wiU be made in ments.
and provisions the various Authority the sort of information and so on, for the industr they will require.

schemes, to provide always be I can only and how this is going the y with On the question of the levy and how so far as I understand it will be raised, it, the levy will be imposed upon all who might receive growers the Government's not possibly as to exactly at this stage have any idea what sort of amounts the support scheme.

But we can­ under burden?


I can only say against is not designed to the merchants It and for as to help the merchants.

to help the producers, So I think it would be rather a1 scheme the fact that, this scheme their commercial me why we do not make a lery on the Why do we not spread the merchants.

net so that they have to carry part of the financial here that this system specifically is designed we are grateful coming into it, despite I have said, to some extent might militate interests.
unfair for us to try to devise some charge upon the that would put who deal in cereals.

The merchants noble Lord also asked me about the that there might be in financial sur­ one season.

plus, if it was considerable or of any over to the next size, would be carried that if the season.

I should imagine find their levy is t(j)O high Authority for the purposes they will alter the levy for succeeding That would appear td me to seasons.
thing to do, an'd I am be the sensible sure it would be done by the A�thority.

for which it is required the financial Certainly surplus to the growers.

This 985 Cereals Marketing [ 30 MARCH 1965] Bill 986 Next we had the extraordinarily good speech of the noble Lord, Lord Digby.

He has been congratulated by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, who is something of a connoisseur has listened and congratulated time to time.

of maiden speeches.
of maiden speeches.

to many in the other place, He Authority, and if it does not work in that way we shall have to find some way of ensuring that we get over the diffi­ culties consequent upon scarcity and glut.

The noble Lord is not satisfied with the equipment.

will certainly co-operatively, before.

-at least I it.
-at least I it.

I gather He went on to many people from as it at present for the difficulties which for surely, LORD CHAMPION: Why in Heaven's LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I have never had the opportunity name does the noble Lord make that intervention when I am making an extra­ ordinarily good point!

thought I was.

That is one of •the little difficulties about these things.
Neverthe­ less, I am sure that he has listened to many maiden speeches and indeed here, and me that this was an extraordinarily maiden speech-indeed, did not have the pleasure Lord Digby's did learn, as a result he was highly respected in his own county, high office.

forward contracting exists, and I can understand that he lost £2 a ton on some of his barley last year, purely as a result of forward contracting.

welcome the bonus arrangements which this Bill provides.
This, is the whole point of the Bill : that we should provide he knows, and about which he spoke so well.

The noble Lord made a point about drying and storing hope this Government in another place, encourage would agree with of drying and storage remember by both Parties, covering this sort of problem.
I am fairly sure that it will be found in the White Paper as presented, which I dare not discuss Lord, Lord St. Oswald, believe be a possibility such a thing as that about which he spoke will come to pass-that be a greater for storage basis, I have not committed too far in this connection, because we definitetly of inquiries, that here and also where he held very there is no doubt that there will that just did what the he spoke ,out of his of the problems but I think not, this is the sort of thing which How welcome this always the other number of facilities and drying on a co-operative by the Goverlli71ent.
The noble Lord himself or I shall have the noble If I passed father in this House, but I the provision, the Government of our ensuring facilities.

in past Bills, provision of knowing on his feet.

I welcome.

rightly, assisted he said so.

I is made for there will If not, which I hope good I The noble House always likes: personal knowledge we are discussing.

is to this House or, indeed, House-that we should have people who are able to talk, and talk well, about the things they really understand.
Lord was fluent, easy, and he had a touch of humour in his speech, we all appreciated.

usual statement, we shall be glad to hear him again in the future, I am sure that this is the case.

We shall be glad to hear the noble Lord on any subject chooses but surely upon this agricultural which he knows so well.

Having said that, I do not invite him to participate I gather that already we have 24 speakers, and to add to that list I would deprecate rather than welcome.
to speak in the future, If I end with the to-morrow.

upon which he business a cliche almost, that The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, was I must admit that to good enough .to tell me of the difficulties tha,t he feels are inherent in the Bill as at present drafted.

He mentioned a point which immediately struck me when I first looked at this Bill, and that was the size of the Authority.

take something that looks like executive action I like a body that is of executive size, not mass meeting size.
The Authority one.

This was considered previous Administration, further Having regard to the interests find representation we feel that we cannot have ·:m Authority which is smaller than the one which the Bill sets out to establish and This, I feet is the only answer provide.

I can make in this connection, while here is undoubtedly a large by the and it has been which must upon this Authority, considered by this Administration.
The noble Lord told us of the difficul­ ties which arise from the fact that there can be a torrent of barley or wheat coming on to the market at harvest time, and then a trickle in winter, rush at the end of the season.

this describes Authority as I understand and a final How well which this That is, of this is set up to mitigate.

the difficulties it, the purpose 987 Salmon and Fresh Water [LORDS] Fisheries 988 [Lord Champion.]

recognising Lord made.


the points which the noble The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, also they did not have a Potato Marketing Board.

I think the Authority a step is certainly in this Bill proposed in the right direction, sure that your Lordships the Bill.

and I feel fairly will support which is and place, 4.49 p.m.

FISHERIES Ireland.
FISHERIES Ireland.

to schemes I should think As a result, On Question, Bill read 2a, and com­ in the growing, I see the point that what considera­ and Fisheries, and the North of England SALMON AND FRESH WATER for different parts of Bill, as it The original place, to another that there is little say, of oats Mr, Soames, to the Interpretation mitted to a Committee of the Whole House.

said that for different largely of the late Minister referred the kingdom.
was presented there should be schemes parts of the country.

at the intervention of Agriculture in another Clause was added that the parts should be England and Wales, Scotland, Northern the noble Lord makes: VISCOUNT AMORY rose to ask Her difference Majesty's Government as between tion has been given to the Report of the the South of Scotland.
Committee on Salmon and Fresh Water that in a case like this the Authority, Fisheries presided over Leing made up of knowledgeable people, reported Bledisloe which would not make separate and when action The noble is expected.

said: My Lords, it is an agree­ Viscount oats for Scotland able experience it would do so only after taking advice and considering discharging of the noble Lord, Lord Champion, ter.
I am not sure that this will wholly because in other days in another satisfy used to bombard me with the most lethal very much against interrogati()ns Scotland from the general not be surprised provisions charm which seemed to imply," You are Wales.

The noble Lord nods his assent advised to this.

and to some extent questions."

him.


But, you know, this lot North of clear that it is not my object the Border are a pretty steady, violent lot ; and the noble Lord has been in on the contrary, the Ministry to-morrow, that have to be faced in this difficulties noble Lord into a sense of false security.

!

I hope I shall not get into connection trouble with the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, or the noble Lord, Lord for having said that.
Balerno, to me to find myself a quest,ion in the direction is the hiving off of the noble Lord who, I think.

but, attack on the Government, and which apply to England to know, with thµ,t subtle will and, your Lordships on the eve of the debate To-day I want to make it agricultural not more th�n three and England.
by Viscount words to lull the and knows well some of the all aspects to attempt in May, 1961 ; by gentle I agree with difficult for schemes of this mat­ If it did, to make a place he are LORD BALERNO : The hackles rising.

but he did not want it to be LORD CHAMPION: This provision is and, I suppose, if well in the want an a Bill of this sort.
The the based upon precedent has worked fairly precedent past you do not necessarily innovation in noble Lord, Lord Burton, Authority, too much like the Potato Marketing Board.

I am not at this moment going to defend the Potato Marketing Board.

I have already spoken at some length in reply to points raised by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoul.
this connection would be in a pretty sorry position if is that the potato supported All I can say in growers in 1961. he shares which reported to the are in relation chairmanship under the distin­ of my noble friend What I want to ask him to-day is whether he will tell us what the Govern­ ment's intentions Report of the Committee guished Lord Bledisloe I should like to ask him, the opinion whether Government, which certainly this Report was an able, auth9.ritative and most useful one.
If so, when do legislation the Government to give effect to the recommendati6ns?

I the noble Lord would also ask whether would tell us if the Go,vernment broadly Report.
accept the recommendations if I may, of the last I do, that propose of that I must own, my Lords, that I feel in this responsibility parental a certain matter because Minister of Agriculture, it was I. when I was who had the to invite of pigeon­ that their Report, and his colleagues 989 Salmon and Fresh Water [ 30 MARCH 1965 J Lord my noble friend, temerity to under­ Bledisloe, I understand take this task.
Unhappily that it is on record that I assured the when they Committee 4.55 p.m. made one, would not be pigeon-holed.

the minimum effluxion of time Exactly the process that constitutes holing I am not quite sure-I do not enough ornitholo gist to feel a competent I fear lay down the law about that-but does constitute that four years probably pigeon-holing.

beyond the process sideration " or " urgent even " active consideration".
that I feel a certain a unique sensation, fue mem­ your Lord'Ships, bers of this Committee and at the risk of bringing people, to the cheeks of my noble friend Bledisloe we felt we were very fortunate secure deeply regret to feel that their time had been wasted.
a blush Lord I would say that at the time indeed to and I, for one, wou]d seems to go con­ consideration " or I own here­ it if they had any reason I hasten to assure their services, of " immediate in my case--ibuit It certainly guilt complex were very busy I understand that my noble friend the that the last Government In another may remind us of to introduce to give effect to the recom­ of the recom­ that the last and I understand , had it not been for the fact super­ specific Duke of Devonshire actions certain took to give effect to several mendations, Government that they have been temporarily seded, intended legislation mendations generally.
Sir Tufton Beamish a Bill-it forward one-to deal with some of the cellent recommendations, dealing and electrical and sluices, mischance Champion, place) another the possibility obtain Reading.
but by mischance that the noble Lord, Lord does occur in will remember to a Second in particular those poisons with the use of explosives, and damage to weirs recently seemed to me an ex­ place tried to bring devices (the kind of Fisheries 990 the Government broadly said, whether accept the recommendations, when they hope to be able to take action to give effect to them.

and, if so, in England LORD EGREMONT: My Lords, many in all walks of life Lord to my noble friend As the noble Report.
out, Lord Amory, has pointed and his Lord Bledisloe in 1961.

Since then anglers will be grateful Amory for having asked this Question about the Bledisloe Viscount, my noble friend Committee the Report ferret a willing task of the Bledisloe review the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries operation, been raised then there has always been the same answer, the Government's reported bas gone to ground ; and I am out.
The to get something Committee was to Acts, 1923 to 1935, and their a question and whenever Report since on the Bledisloe that there was no room as yet in programme.

has But there is one thing that urgently of Agriculture, rabbits.

is officially from a growing evil, that of scale.


piratical a poison called needs to be done now ; that is, to protect the fisheries on a great and poaching There is, for example, cymag, which I believe by the Ministry approved and Food for killing Fisheries For all I know, it may even carry a sub­ there is no real hindrance sidy.

Certainly and I think no regulation to its against It is, therefore, easy for anyone to obtain this poison, at first hand or at secondhand.
either stuff for a blackguard is very convenient to put into a sa11mon river, where it kiHs every salmon within reach ; and it does so silently.

Not only does it Jci11 all tyipes of fis'h : it a1so destroys of insect aH forms life upon which fish depend.

its storage.

purchase, very It about the I think, to comment I do not propose te11 me that if there is a defect that Bill failed, of getting of bhis sort of the dangers A new fa,w was brought in which aware earlier of ,poaching.
by the fast Laibour ,increased heavily call" cymag-ing ",in Scotland particular recommendations because my salmon susipedted of haiving friends by " cy.mag-ing in my character feited.

man ; therefore, the court ipawer fied to do so.

But I understand that one any motor have some or two of my noble friends mission that they would like to observations of course, vision, make.

Therefore I propose to confine lending their lorries myself stand tba.t of or boat used in the com­ of the offence.
This last pro­ :frightened to poachers.

I under­ it is that I am no fisher­ I should not feel quali­ and enabled been cau�ht and for­ the noble Lord, as I have for what I tihe penalties " tto be iseized -the general opinion case, fuis law gave Government In a serious to asking ,people from vehicle in Scotland to order bhe forfoi,ture In Scotland, the authorities became 991 Salmon and Fresh Water [ LORDS] [Lord Egremont.]

Act has been almost com­ in 1preventing successful of rivers.
is that -tha-t pletely poisoning still continues think, of the Jack of any control because on �he sa,Je of salmon in the open season.

But " cymag-ing partly, I in Sco'fland, this " Now we are ,getting " cy,maig-ing" .in Cumberland of I own Here I must riv,ers, an interest in this matter.

English par,ticularly and other Northern counties.

declare about 21 miles •of salmon and trout rivers two lakes, in addition, in Cumberland and, Bassenthwaite and Lake and Wast.water, and tarns.
But various streams as a result ,I can claim to know something about this subject.

'I'here pressiou of noble Lords and Dukes and •tycoons.

that salmon fishin,g mountain is a " perk" may be an im­ A NOBLE LORD: And Viscounts.

I all'ot fishing on my rivers 1,100 rods, and LORD EGREMONT: But this is not the case so far as my own fishings are concerned.

in Cumberland to aibout 1,020 are ,rhe by of these albout workers, men­ 1good working whic:Jh many of them miners .who work under­ ground.
Fishing joy -is being ruined and " cymag-ing fis'h.

is their joy, and their coming by these people I mean 1,020 " the rivers in which they Fisheries 992 which thoughts "free from those restless corrode the sweets of life."

I My object protection wicked corroding now is to make a plea for the the of such people against of their waters.

Wnat such people want is the out-of­ 1designed have a sneaking of the Salmon and Fresh up to Act, 1923, brought The who a number the odd salmon.
Quite for that da te penalties Water Fisheries date to meet modern conditions.

1923 Act contains penalties merely to stop the odd poaclier snatches of people sort of chap.

But to-day the organised gangs-those, for example, cymag-are really dealing and magistrates implementing Bledisloe Report criminals already who use who need Give opr police powers by of the criminals with accordingly.
the necessary the recommendations and these will be dealt with as they are in this regard, regard of in Cumberland dealt with in Scotland.

sense, and I speak in no Party political Lord and what I have I am sure that what my noble friend Amory has been saying, will have a large measure been saying, from the noble Lord, Lord of sympathy and from the Minister Champion, Agriculture.

to speak for all I am trying those who have fishing at bearit.

For and for the sakes!


of the their sakes, about whom I have people end, t)lis been speaking, Sir Tufton Beamish has introduced in another place a Bill to repeal Section Fisheries believe, House, but it has got blocked.

of England need good fishermen tection against these criminal and I venture to suggest us in Parliament protection Act, 1923.

The Bill has, I from both sides of his What the is pro­ to seek to find that and to achieve that it is for support for them.
9 of the Salmon and Freshwater and re-enact activities, of of fish.

I cannot •fihe distress •good labouring the Rector of the spoke eloquently it had caused loca1 ,people Last year a gang came afong and with a multitude to your Lordships cyrrna,g killed describe this caused to all .vhese Canon German, people.

Parish of Egremont, the distress who work so hard.

And the Minister Agrioulture problem, partioularly wilh tlhis berland.

I am sure rhat be would want are to do his best to put it rigtht.
Tihere who also some of 'llhe more noisy ,poachers who use use dynamite.

wh� may devices electrica4 wreok dams, floodgates with or sluices to take or destroy fish.

intent about is not poach­ of ,is, I am sure, familiar in Cum­ There are o'thers ; and yet others What I am talking himself industry, working depredators, has become run by disgraceful ing for the pot.

In West Cumberland, which I know best, poaching a nefarious pirates, own side.
It has been said that every deep down, is a fisherman, that, deep down, every man is a fisher­ man.

Good old Izaak Walton wrote that were quiet-spirited anglers against their man, and I thin..lc men 5.5 p.m.

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My also declare an interest I Indeed, of for a variety although we are debating.

an interest : first of all, because, Lords, I, like my noble friend Lord Egremont, must in the subject must declare reasons very unskilful, I like fishing a very great deal.
Indeed, in this I differ very much from m'y noble Lord Amory, who said that one friend of the few faults was that be was not an angler.

I �m con­ for spending far st•antly being criticised too much time fishing and not!

nearly I am a keen angler and in ibis character Fisheries 994 so I am concerned, in that of being a member of the Fish­ 993 Salmon and Fresh Water [ 30 MARCH 1965] enough time on more serious and impor­ I must also declare tant ma,tters.
an I have the honour and interest privilege mongers' Company, as it were, with the end product angling.

and perhaps most I have the privilege importantly, President Association, of half-a-million country, with coar.se fishing.

do wi�h angling, hilt.


mostly, but not fishing as opposed all, concerned to game So with regard to anything which represents of the Anglers' I am in it up to the fishermen in this And finally, of being to of Co-operative the interests If I may possibly anticipate what the ahead In the weeks and months that lie Great are going to come of the Bledisloe I am not suggesting for a to meet further we are going to have much contentious and indeed acrimonious debate.
and important matters as the question before this House, such of the nationalisation and of steel, whether should be the death penalty abolished.

moment that legislation Report recommendations But I are of that national importance.

would just say this: whether or not steel is nationalised, be, will of human happiness this country.

abolished, that might add fo the happiness haps a condemned family, though it would ; but it would make only a few people happier.
man and his close I am not at all sure that though it may important not add one whit to the sum of the people of should be And if hanging it is possibly true to say that of per­ I ons, and a con­ reported more anglers in this cpuntry Fortunately, there are than murderers.

151 recommendati I would met a very number of the ifecommen­ in Lord Bledusloe's number ·of the more important Lord Bledisloe, did you not do ,it? "
will say in I think he may well say," You ask The noble Lord, Lord Champion, reply, us to find time for ,legislation.

r.oble Viscount, in 1961.

Why is fair comment, and to That, I think, e that defence try to anticipat say that the last Government considerable put forward c!ations Report.

There were in the Report, think, siderable ones were met during the lifetim last Government.

to 53, whioh are concerned important were covered Act, 1963.
Recommendations which are on the -equally matter of river pollution, by two Private Book.

Recommendations with t!he strengthening are concerned of up r,iver autho­ river boards and setting were also met by the Water riti-es Resources Act, 1963.

So much has been done, though by no means all the recom­ have been met.
mendations Recommendations with the very matter of water extraction, by the Water Re.sources on the Statute 73 to 83 which 54 to 72, important uncontroversial of people Such kgislation still vastly if the Government could a.nd therefore find time for legislation, which would and would be entirely get through literally on the nod, it would make hundreds of thousands very much happier.

would not be to enable rich men to in­ dulge in their expensive sport.
I was not wholly sure that I was flattered Lord when my noble fri�nd Egremont I think if I had the choice be a tycoon, and with But I can say, in all sincerity absolute mem­ 500,000 Co-operative bers of the Anglers' tion.

which represents those who like above all else would back coarse 100 per cent.

any legislation along the lines of Recommendations 1 to 3 that could be introduced.

I would rather to be absofutely Dukes with tycoons.
and privileged were largely that the Bills now fishing, coupled Associa­ truth, honest.

e of the met 47 It is not for me to offer advice to the on the lines of is required My noble friend the last thing that tions 1 to 3 of the Report.

made Lord Egremont to the great evil of " cymag­ reference ing ", and to defeat this evil I thin.le legislation Recommenda These make suggestions strengthening use of poisons, and lakes.
I would devices in rivers ask the noble Lord opposite most urgently to give serious to bringing points.

of the penalties explosives, Government-indeed, I should wish them to do is to win the next Election-but I wonder whether could see their way to introducing it would not mean legislation.

Perhaps but it that more fish would be caught, might catch them a few votes.

I leave that to the noble Lord, Lord Champion, to put to his colleagues.

is that this evil exists would not protect privileged.
would find support throughout the interests that A Bill is something the for the the against and electronic consideration to meet these in legislation they this of the All I would say and legislation 995 Salmon and Fresh Water [ LORDS] [The Duke of Devonshire.]

country human happiness, virtually ; it would add to the sum of and would take up no Parliamentary I should Befor_e closing, like to add my time at all.

and as he seemed to me to be Fisheries 996 and I do not own a river.
or a tycoon, I know many rivers, Nevertheless, I think all fish on a good many also.

those of us who are interested in angling and in rivers owe to a debt of gratitude Lord Amory for raising this matter.

But I d�d not tihink he needed �o be quite so depressed about the fact that Lord Report has been in the cupbbard for four years.

I sat in this House for day after day, when I think Lor'd Amory was doing his signal when we dealt with the Water Resources Bill.
Surely that Act did a great deal many of the aspects to implement the Bledisloe Report.

It gave powers to the new authorities up to deal with a great many of the such as abstraction S?bjects, t10n and so on, and the rationing of water when the minimum level was not available, which were set duty in I Canada, and pollu­ Bledisloe's of for his Report.
to my noble friend Lord It it not often Report through document I can say that all and country and to him are deeply grateful own tnbute Bledisloe that I read a Government from cover to cover, but I have done this one, and I can say that it is a most interesting of us who like angling rural pursuits and to his Committee that they took.

I think they sat for three and a half years compiling this Report.

do is to see that all the recommendations are duly implemented.
I hope that the Government ing in legislation some, if not all, of the in the Report.
5.13 p.m. will see their way to bring­ that will at least meet I would say that the least we can recommendations for all the trouble They Perhaps My Lords, VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: for the kind to speak this afternoon they have said about the work of I had not intended on the Report of my Committee, but I should like to take this opportunity to thank my noble friends Lord Amory and the Duke of Devonshire things We did sit over a period the Committee.

of three and a half years.


The members of the Committee some extent minimised duced a unanimous rather surprising I think it was a Report that commended itself interests.

and they pro­ which was conflicting, their differences and to had various, to those interested before the Committee, in fisheries.

I would remind your Lordships that not a rich man's fishing is certainly sport.
As we saw from the evidence we had called number of working-class great relaxation pe�haps the people keenest evidence before address your Lordships As I was Chairman I think it would be improper so.

5.15 p.m. us.

I do not wish to complaints one of the most import­ and all the rest of it.
I should like to ask the the Act is operating, Government and which is and is being maintained, are being received It has a true ring of Lake and some of the hvers in is to try to about abstraction the water from the bottom of of from the top.

That of the to what extent how far this minimum level, so important, whether that water is being abstracted so that the minimum level is not being main­ tained.

ant things abstract a river instead was one of the recommendations �ledisloe Committee.
m the ear for me, thinking Windermere the Lake District, Corporation Parliament from the top of some rivers from some of the lakes.

I sincerely hope will set 1 that the Government a stern 1 face against them to look again to see whether they cannot get the water from the bottom of the river.

Whilst it would be a little more expensive, they would get just as much water.
As I say, therf is no reason why the thirsty millions pf Man­ but should not have their water, chester there is also no reason why they should not pay for it and get it fro� places so as to damage the countrysidei when the Manchester to come to for powers-to abstract and even this proposal, now orooose and will tell on the Report.

of the Committee, a large people find in fishing, and they were in the circumstances.

Report, for me to do least.


to give water LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My say that my two and to and fishing, an interest.

But of being a Duke Lords, my friends are arguing hobbies that extent I declare I have not the privilege About pollution, I should like to ask whether Fisheries being slowly brought the Ministry is satisfied of Agriculture and is and that pollution under control he has made that the noble In my time there I hard for a it is exceedingly is improving.
I should like, Member to get a Bill through important I am delighted has raised this matter to-day.

997 Salmon and Fresh Water [ 30 MARCH 1965] Fisheries 998 sure that we can leave it to them fairly the position to do it.

I ho·pe to reply later in my too, to refer to the Bill which my old speech to the point that friend Colonel Sir Tufton Beamish This, too, is an about pollution.
to the House of Commons and brought extremely point in this con­ was which, so I have heard to-day, blocked reason by time or some other nection.

Viscount about which I know not.

As is known he is not an to those of us who have been in the He said at the outset that Commons, of angler, private the nohJe Viscount know its courses.

that he knows how to fish for a reply.

or two small Bills If it is possible for me to give a reply persuade I certainly to his Question agree to.
I got them (I think the term is) attempt which means that the "starred", Government the Bills.

have adopted a change from the terrible going to arise in that I am sure is another here, in the place, next two months, why do not the Government star this little Colonel themselves unanimity will greatly need Sir Tunon Beamish and give at least one day of peace and in a House which I am sure which I managed to the Whips of both Parties to give it.
I have listened but I have a long experience with tremendous and I certainly controversy and perhaps to-day, bad one Bill of will it?

to in­ As with the task given to the noble Lord Fraser Lords have said­ Lord Amory, the and also the Chairman of which sat upon this mat­ Gov­ to the Com­ terest to what noble the noble Viscount, noble Lord, Lord Egremont, Duke and the noble Lord, of Lonsdale, the Committee ter.
On behalf of Her Majesty's ernment I must pay a tribute mittee which sat under Lord Bledisloe's chairmanship for the thoroughness which they performed Lord them by the noble Viscount, Amory.

With the noble Viscount, I have a Jot of sympathy with the general prin­ ciple that when a problem has been examined in great detail by a Committee of Inquiry sequential from it should be taken without any undue delay.
I hate, as he does, the practice of pigeon-holing, but of course this has to be done from time to time, and I suppose the la.st Government thou�t rthat .they had to pigeon-·hole maHer .for a period.
to pluck this out of the pigeon-hole, it consideration, do, and eventually ment what we hope will be the solution to some of the difficulties whioh s.till rnad.n, even though we have had certain action that any con­ it is desirable action which ought to flow and then decide ·to present the Now iii: is our job it:o Parlia­ what to give re­ 5.18 p.m. LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I cer­ tainly could not complain about the tone of the debate that has arisen on this if noble Unstarred Question.
Indeed, I shall Lords will keep it over to-morrow be most happy.

I rather fear that that may not be the case, but I shall have to do my best at any rate to keep it so, so far as I per-sona11y am concerned.

on it.

The noble Lord, Lord Fraser of referred Act and the Authority to the Water Re­ set up that they Lonsdale, sources under that Act.

I am afraid have not yet begun to work.


They do until April 1 ; not start their job properly but of course, he has men­ the point that tioned is one which must be much in their minds, because they were set up to do precisely and I am noble Lord has mentioned, the sort of job that the I think I may be permitted at this point to remind your Lordships of the and the nature of scope of the inquiry the recommendations made by the Com­ mittee.
The Committee, appointed was Minister to review the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries principal contains salmon and freshwater Acts and their operation.

Act was the Act of 1923, which the main code by which the which was when he by the noble Viscount was asked of Agriculture, fisheries of this The and maintain rivers that rivers of ours of beautiful have a beauty I do not want to delay the House.
I want only to say that any steps that can be taken to preserve this heritage -I would stress not only for the angler but for all who live near, or on, or by them, or who can will go and enjoy them-and our fishing, not only be a fine contribution towards the economy of the country, good contribution towards happiness.

but also a its health and 999 Salmon and Fresh Water [LORDS] Fisheries 1000 by they recommended for certain serious [Lord Champion.]

The Committee country are regulated.


the was also asked to take into account with the River Boards Act, which deals machinery of the of the administration fisheries provided methods local by-laws, elasticity.

Finally, that the penalties offences in Clause 2 and for particular of fishing, should be replaced thus making for greater there was a to for Considering The Committee dates back to years very should be increased.
Book and the fact that much of As one of your Lordships law which governs fisheries I hope that my brief summary will which had elapsed Act reached the by the river boards.

the time since the principal Statute the current in this country much before 1923, clearly case for such a review.

found that very much had happened 1923 which had bad repercussions fisheries water by industry lems of sewage works and of factories discharging addition, wholly desirable sport.

angling activity, the facilities for it.


give offence to no one, partiqularly the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, the summary is very much of a general character.

mentioned, fewer than which 90 would involve action on those recommendations been delayed Governpient.

sibility ; the increasing prob­ and I have say this in no critical no desire but this is the fact.
This report has been and there has available for been no specific on it, but as legislation on, they did certain I shall mention later things some of which have been men­ tioned by the noble Duke himself.

the Committee made no of 151 recommendations, legisl�tion.
If has In since 1923 there has been a as a increase as an enjoyable and it is our job to try to improve I agree with those who have praised and the waters available it is not wholly the respon­ : the increasing to make a Party point, and worthwhile a fair time, since on of the present their effluents into rivers.
in angling demands for spirit In connection with possible ha� I future that the Report difficulties rivers wefe in a serious fresh water They found no do not live I would specially In this connection for I must admit that I that out of some 1,100 he lets welcome the words of the noble Lord.

Lord Egremont, was very much under the impression that, as he put it, salmon fishing was the Dukes and " perk " of noble Lords, this was the tycoons.
I rather thought case, and I certainly liked bis assurance in this connection rods on his Cumberland men, as he called 1,020 to good working them.

I am one of those " good working men", but unfortunately in near enough to his area to participate these advantages which he throws open to those among whom I would number myself.

Report also deals with all types of fresh­ not only salmon fishing.
water fishing, Perhaps I may be permitted briefly the Committee's of the rivers As we know, the in the for an and water abstrac­ from pollution we must remember that the fisheries which called legisla­ the due to inadequate out that despite action, did not disclose existing legislation urgent remedy.

They did not !find, for instance, state of decline tion.

They pointed dangers tion, the practice of returning coarse fish to the water had effectively preserved the stocks.
that the present evidence salmon and sea trout are declining.

also considered that by the river boards had brought able benefits to the fisheries, they had wider powers than the old fisheries they had more funds at their disposal.

stocks of They the administration consider­ both because boards and because must continue summarise they said that ings on this point.

First, to be the conservation must be guiding policy and fisheries a number guided to this end.
Secondly, law are of the existing of the provisions obsolete Thirdly, and must be changed.

the river board must continue regulatory control, some of the detailed boards.

Fourthly, restrictions but I think it fair to say tha�.

taking the Report as a whole, its recommenda­ tions are not of such a character would justify are so many demands on time.

I have noted the advice of the noble Duke.

He rather thinks that if we did something about this we should come back with an even greater last year.
I will pass his adviey to friends be considering to go to the country, ought not perhaps we have introduced as to whe1ther we to delay it uqtil after body subject and the Minister to river statutory control the various and regulations, to the Minister's a high priority should devolve who might for doing nothing, All this is no reason my when such as those majority when there than lwe had to find­ to be the as this legislation.
But, 10-01 Salmon and Fresh Water [ 30 MARCH 1965 l Fisheries 1002 in the Report.

my Lords, I feel agree that this is not the sort of matter which should have a very high priority.

that the House will There is, too, the fact-and this was to those Government relating legislation out by tihe noble Duke-chat since tihere has been.

im­ in connection directly and 1wiil 1tions •contained Act, 1963, both of which 111 recom­ one of the Committee's has to sa,lmon netting with Your an.d water abstra'Ction.
will remember the Rivers (Pre­ Act, 1961, and the pointed the Report appeared portant pollution Lordships ven t,ion of Pollution) Water Resources will ,undoub'bedly improve conditions meet certain the fisheries, recommenda In additron meas·ures, mendations been dealt ;with as a result Member',s Bill before another support.

was particularly Lord Fraser of Lonsdale.

ment are certainly would like to see it passed.


rea·son, the Bill does not have a Second Reading in another that lack of ingenuity someone from bringing here, where it may go through fairly easily, through the tJther through invitations.
because by the noble Lord, The Govern­ suipport,ing this Bill and I.f, for some I rather hope will not preve-nt in such a Bill Bi11, •and there is at present and tlhen perhaps of a Priv,;1.te more ea1sily get having pa·ssed this •point I ,mention ,place, rplace, raised it a pla:ce wibh Government 1here.

But I am not is.&uing LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, would the noble Lord say whether the Bill which is receiving support another is the Tufton Beamish Bill or one?
Government LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I am the la,v and SIU·pport, by means of the ,poison­ ,place 1is to strengthen ,poaching sorry vhat I did not make that as clear a•s I ought �o have done.

The Bill before another against ing of �ater.

Tha't is Sir Tufton Beamish's Bill.

Tihis has Government we are very muoh hoping ,that this Bill will somehow find its way on to the Statu:te of Parliament.
our irugenui,ty place, for to get i.t through on this matter of the •poisoning of waters I agree wi'Vh the noble Lord, Lord Egre­ mont, who used strong words-and justifiably.

I hope that we s'hall in 'this House, if they fail 1Book during this ,present Session use in another I must admit that I have a certain amount of sympathy perhaps for the poacher ; and of my own this, too, is a result policy.
that by means the decent one, of poaching did on the other one the waters and destroying But I like poachers who and background.

use what I call "clean methods", I hate the thought of poisoning the fish.

On this I am certainly in agree­ ment with the noble Lord.

I gather that he did not look with such a stern eye upon the clean poacher, but he certainly and, as I say, I am quite with him on I must admit that I this.

Incidentally, to Izaak Walton.


I liked his reference Angler with me on a took The Comp/eat speaking tour and found that the book itself from " those restless corrode the sweets of life " when I got even if into bed after a day's speaking, did not do that at that time.
I angling thought it right to remind the House of the developments and to demonstrate mittee's without the fact that the Com­ recommendations on Government influence freed me thoughts during the last election, have not been which which have taken place, What about the recommendations After Question?

early legislation.

right honourable My right honourable the desire which has for an early formal state­ decision.
Last from the he saw a deputation and he was then still remain to be acted upon, which is the whole point of the noble Vis­ really count's friend appreciates been expressed ment of the Government's November interests concerned, urged to introduce careful consideration.my friend informed cerned that, owing to the pressure Parliamentary very early legislation recommendations.
step should be a Government which he will make as soon as practicable: upon the Government's that this will enable the interested bodies to make representations statement take place necessitating the three bodies con­ on and enable consultations time, he could not promise on the remaining conclusions, He feels that the next with them on the matters legislation.
the timing of the announce­ friend thinks statement As regards upon the and to ment, my right honourable it would be advisable to wait until he of the has had time to study the contents Hunter Committee's Report on the Scottish fisheries will recognise, common ground between both countries.

expected within the next two or three months, and I should think, my right law, for as noble Lords , there must clearly the problems be in The Hunter Report is 1003 Prisoners' [LORDS] Earnings 1004 [Lord Champion.]
having the advantage friend honourable of that Committee's Report plus the Bledisloe Committee's Report, upon which there has been a considerable liminary examination, that to a not too long delay in the announce­ legisla­ ment and, I hope, the subsequent tion which should flow from it.
should lead pre­ prisoners' since the present and learned earnings THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF I STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My friend is right honourable y. generall reviewing rates were Meanwhile, fixed some years ago, increases will be introduced 6d.

to ls.

3d.

per week for prisoners, 6d.

to ls.

Od.

for inmates detention centres.

will now range from 3s.

6d.

to l ls.

3d.

a inmates week ; those of borstal ls.

6d.

to 8s.

Od.
6d.

to 8s.

Od.

; and those of detention and and Prisoners' of borstals earnings on the 1st April varying from from asked Her centre inmates from ls.

3d.

to 2s.

6d.

WRITTEN ANSWER PRISONERS' BARONESS GAITSKELL EARNINGS Majesty's What proposals Government: they have earnings.

prisoners' increasing for House adjourned four minutes before at twenty­ six o'clock.