Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697735677103.pdf (Fiji)
LIST OF WITNESSES WRITTEN EVIDENCES Report of the Auditor General – Performance Audit Report on: (Parliamentary Paper No.

151 of 2019) No.

1.

Ministry of Employment, Productivity & Industrial Relations Audit on Management of the Workers Compensation Trust Fund Witnesses 2.

Ministry of Economy Audit of Fiji Procurement Office and the Construction Implementation Unit 3.

Ministry of Women, Children & Poverty Alleviation Audit of Social Welfare Scheme Page No.
2 16 61 MINISTRY OF ECONOMY Response to Public Accounts Committee on Performance Audit Fiji Procurement Office & Construction Implementation Unit QUESTION 1 1.0 CAPACITY MANAGEMENT CHALLENGE 1.1 What strategies has the CIU and FPO put in place to ensure that the existing capacities are strengthened and optimised and proper assessment of existing capacities are done on a regular basis?

Capacity development is an important component of a successful public procurement transformation.
Most countries are undergoing an ongoing and continuous process of capacity development of the national public procurement system.1 The national procurement system involves systems, process and people.

Fijian Government is no different.

The vacant positions highlighted by OAG were subsequently filled by both FPO and CIU.
While the OAG had focused its capacity assessment recommendation on FPO & CIU, both divisions are just cogs in the whole procurement machine so a holistic approach is needed when looking at capacity assessment.

Capacity development must target whole of Government as efficiency at FPO and CIU is dependent on capacity at line ministries.

As a way forward, we are seeking assistance from development partners to carry out an independent capacity assessment exercise and provide a capacity development plan.
The reliance is not on assistance from donors only.

We also understand we need to work towards capacity development locally.

We have the following strategies in place that takes into account a holistic approach to capacity development 1.2 Construction Implementation Unit Leveraging technology is key in increasing value with current or reduced resources.

CIU had implemented Electronic Database system (PMWeb) which streamlines processes through workflow and retained information in real time.
As a result, CIU now has to slowly adjust its human resources needs due to the efficiency of the system introduced.

1 Public Procurement Capacity Development Guide 2010, UNDP With the system in place, multiple users can now have access to the database and carry out their processes immediately without waiting in queues to access the hardcopy of the required documents.

Officers on site can load information directly to their laptops provided network is available.
In terms of staff levels, CIU is targeting to maintain the current numbers and work within its current resources.

A self- assessment on capacity will be undertaken to see optimal staff levels.

We are mindful of the fact that the massive rehabilitation works for Tropical Cyclone Winston is almost completed.

Our focus has shifted to other capital projects and other rehabilitation works for Tropical Cyclone Keni, Gita and Josie.
These projects will have a different capacity need, which will be different from the massive Tropical Cyclone rehabilitation programme.

As an ongoing capacity development strategy, CIU is liaising with training providers to up skill officers to be on par with market requirements and technological progress and ensure improved productivity and efficiency.

1.3 Fiji Procurement Office Training is at the center of the capacity building strategy.
Specialised procurement related training is not available in Fiji.

As part of Procurement Reforms, we are working with donors and Ministry of Civil Service to assist us with access to the opportunities.

Professionalizing Procurement is important to ensure proper standards are in place and that practice in the profession is properly regulated to perform within legal, technical and professional expectations.
As part of this strategy, we are focusing on partnership with global professional bodies such as Chartered Institute of Procurement & Supply to help raise procurement standards across whole of Government and deliver results.

In most Ministries, there are no specialised procurement positions.

Procurement is seen as a transactional task which means the responsibilities are assigned to technical officers.
With the establishment of Procurement Category Management and with the many changes which are taking place in procurement both in professional practice and the work towards modernizing our Procurement Regulations, we are closely working with Procurement contacts in the line ministries to meet the new requirements.

We are also encouraging the appointment of specialised procurement personnel in the Ministries who can shift Ministry procurement thinking from a transactional to strategic one.
A procurement system is efficient when it spends the least amount of resources in the procuring of goods, services and works.

Removing administrative waste has been a key strategy for FPO since 2018.

During busy periods, administrative waste has been identified as a hindrance to efficient and effective work.

Like CIU, FPO introduced the eTender portal in 2018 which helped increase efficiency and made positions that would have normally been needed redundant.
In addition, FPO has been releasing various standard templates to improve work speed and remove ambiguity.

The templates range from Evaluation meeting minutes to checklists.

We have also worked hard in removing administrative tasks that are deemed to be non-value add work.

An example is the removal of Board papers (prepared by FPO) and replaced with an Evaluation Report.

The Evaluation Report prepared by the agency replaces both the Evaluation minutes and the FPO Board paper.
As such the focus of the Ministry of Economy in procurement is improving performance with the same resources by removing non-value administrative steps.

2.0 What is the current status on the implementation of the electronic database (PMWeb) at the CIU?

How will it improve the service delivery of CIU in terms of project management?

The electronic database has been implemented and is live now.

The system is currently being updated with current projects status.
Previous project updates are also being loaded into the system.

The system will improve the service delivery of CIU in terms of Project Management as discussed below: i.

Initiatives – Assist in the creation of projects and undertake planning with the relevant agencies in terms of score, rate, prioritize, review and approve potential projects in a shared environment; ii.

Estimates – Assist determining the projects estimation or quantity surveying; iii.
Submissions for Public Sector Investment Program - Assist in the project appraisals during the budget consultation.

iv.

Budgets - Upon the approval of the budget, the cash flows of each projects are loaded into the system for forecasting cost of construction cost, consultancy cost and other regulatory fees.

v. Commitments and Payments – Ability to generate commitments and monitor progressive payments against the commitment; vi.
Workflow – Keep tracks of approval trails at various stages or processes, which leads to accountability and transparency; vii.

Contract Management – Ability to administer and manage contracts such as automated notifications are sent to relevant stakeholders and proactive approach for extension of time or any associated risks; viii.

Scheduling – Keep track of projects based on the project milestones such as Gantt Charts; ix.
Document Management – Centralise record keeping of all projects related documents; x.

Web Based System – Can be accessible at any locations via internet access; xi.

Security Features - Controlled through security measures, users and modules; xii.

Asset Database - Captures in-depth details of building which includes locations, spaces, respective levels, inventory details including equipment's and fittings tied to premises; xiii.
Rental [Office & Quarters] - It includes Leases for government quarters owned by the government and office space rented from Private Stakeholders; xiv.

Housing Allowance - PMWeb has a feature which can automatically calculate Housing Allowance for respective eligible recipients as per the outlined Criteria as per PSC Circular; xv.
Reports – The system allows various forms of reports such as Dash boards, Cost Reports, Customised reports and Reports for various modules generated through filtering and sorting functions; and xvi.

Game Changer in terms of real-time information available at point in time.

The database not only stores data but captures the life cycle of the projects from its planning phase to completion as well as periodic maintenance.
QUESTION 2 3.0 ABSENCE OF THE COMPLIANCE FUNCTION OF THE FPO 3.1 What is the progress on the updating of the review of the Financial Management Act 2014 and Procurement regulations 2010 to include the strategic changes to align with the constitution and to modernise public sector financial management practices?

MoE is working on an amendment bill for the Financial Management Act for review by SGs office.

The work on the FMA has been in consultation with relevant donor partners.
The Procurement Regulations amendments are at drafting stage with SGs office.

The regulations will be finalised once the updated Financial Management Act is confirmed.

MoE is targeting the completion of the reviews by Mid-year 2020.

3.2 Has the Procurement Center of Excellence been established and have they assumed the function of the compliance assessment of the FPO?

The Procurement Center of Excellence (‘PCoE’) team is currently in operation with 7 staff.
The PCoE replaced the compliance function and a policy department of FPO in 2018.

The PCoE carries out the policy and compliance function required under Procurement Regulation 2010.

Historically, FPO compliance has been an audit based approach where procurement audit and special audits were a primary role.

There is now a change in our approach to compliance.
The PCoE works on a Compliance Management Programme which targets to create a strategic and consistent approach to the management of the compliance obligations.

The Programme relates to the definition, prevention, detection, collaboration and enforcement of compliance obligations.

The four main compliance tasks we currently carry out under the Compliance Management Programme are as follows: 1.
Policy and guideline review: A key task for the team is to review and modernise current policies and guidelines in association with the Policy team at the Treasury Division.

Policies and guidelines need to be reviewed to ensure they are on par with the changing procurement landscape and remove administrative non-value add work.

2.

Training: Key to compliance is education and training to ensure procurement personnel are knowledgeable of compliance requirements.
A whole of Government training on procurement regulations and public procurement basics is held monthly.

So far, more than 1000 civil servants have been trained.

In addition, FPO runs an internal refresher program for staff to ensure procurement advisory officers are adequately educated on current regulations, policies and guidelines.

3.
3.

Compliance Advisory Support – Officers from the FPO Tender Unit are part of all evaluation committee meetings and provides procurement and compliance advice to agencies.

They review all compliance aspects of the tender before this is submitted to the Government Tender Board.

4.

Monitoring - Key to our monitoring function is our Procurement Data Analysis team in the PCoE.

Tender procurement data is analysed and a report shared with GTB and relevant PSs.
The team collects and analyse tender award data which is used in risk assessments, training and due diligence processes.

Specific data on the procurement categories are shared with our Tenders Unit who use this data in their advisory role.
4.0 FLUCTUATIONS IN THE NUMBER OF ANNUAL PROCUREMENT PLAN SUBMITTED IN THE PAST FIVE (5) YEARS 4.1 Since the review of Procurement Regulations 2010 is in progress, are there plans for FPO to enforce the timely submission of annual procurement plan from respective permanent secretaries?

FPO is working with Budget Division to improve this.

Currently the APP is prepared after the budget announcement.
We are working with Budget Division to add the APP as an input to the budget process for the next budget year.

This will improve the submissions rate and reduce complexities in the planning process.

4.2 What is the progress on FPO’s work towards providing a structure to Government procurement planning?

The first draft of the Planning Procurement Framework (PPF) has been completed and this is now under a review process within the Ministry.
The PPF work is running concurrently with the review of the Finance Management Act and its Procurement Regulations.

It is important that planning framework is aligned to the proposed FMA Act and amended Procurement Regulations.

Nevertheless, improvement work must continue in planning.

The tender advisory team is promoting the adoption of the best practices mentioned in the PPF to ensure there is a continual growth in procurement standard.
5.0 ASSESMENT OF DIFFERENT STAGES OF TENDER PROCESS PHASE 5.1 What mechanism has been put in place to ensure that the timeframe stipulated in the Procurement Regulations 2010 for each stages of tender process are met?

FPO established the following mechanisms to help ensure that timeframe is stipulated in the Procurement Regulations 2010 for each stage are adhered to: 1.
Setting Deadlines: FPO has since January 2020 indicated deadline dates for each stage of the process in its initial letter sent to Agencies after tender electronic box opening.

The FPO tender advisory team follows up with the agencies before the deadline to confirm status of tender evaluation.

2.

Streamlining Process: The FPO Procurement Center of Excellence has been implementing innovative ways to reduce administrative waste in process.
This includes the release of checklist and standard templates to help standardise and streamline process.

In addition, they are working on removing non value add administrative process.

One examples of the work done so far is the conversion of the evaluation minutes to the Evaluation Report which is directly submitted to the Board.

Previously FPO prepared a Board Paper in addition to the evaluation minutes.
Other examples include contract standardisation, introduction of eTender which streamlined tender process.

QUESTION 3 6.0 LACK OF INTENT FOR CONSTRUCTION IMPLEMENTATION UNIT 6.1 What actions have been taken by the CIU to ensure that its functions or intent are clearly documented and proper governance framework are in place that ensures the proper functioning of the unit?
CIU commenced its operations in 2016 through the 2016 Budget, which was approved in the Parliament with functions to facilitate and improve implementation of capital projects.

There are no new rules and regulations created by CIU, however CIU ensures that all relevant regulations and policies are adhered at all times during the project life cycle.

The Unit has its own Standard Operating Procedure, which is in line with relevant policies, rules and regulations to guide the project implementation.
CIU is part of the Ministry’s Strategic Plan and CIU’s Key Performance Indicators (‘KPI’) are clearly outlined in the Ministry’s Costed Operational Plan.

CIU also reports the achievement of KPIs in the Ministry’s Annual Report that ensures that CIU carry out is functions as planned with allocated resources.
7.0 ASSESSMENT OF DIFFERENT STAGES OF TENDER PROCESS PHASE 7.1 What is the current status on the standard template for standardising the contract process that the FPO and Solicitor General’s Office are working on?

We have received the finalised standard contract from SGs office which is now in use.

The standard contract allows for faster reviews by SGs office thus reducing contract review times.

This has just been introduced in 2020.


7.2 What mechanism has been put in place to ensure that the timeframe stipulated in the Procurement Regulations 2010 for each stages of tender process are met?

Refer to 5.1.

8.0 SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS 8.1 At the evaluation stage of the construction implementation, is there a gender impact analysis carried out following the conclusion of the project?

How effective was the resource allocated in meeting the needs of both women and men?
Is there an understanding of the gender patterns and their impact of achieving the overall goals?

Currently there hasn’t been any gender impact analysis undertaken following the conclusion of a project from Ministry of Economy (‘MoE’).

However, respective Ministries should be collecting sex-disaggregated data as part of their monitoring and evaluation.

To gauge the effectiveness of resource allocation to both women and men can be gauged when gender impact analysis takes place.
This analysis is an area that needs to be strengthened.

It is important to note MoE is working closely with the MWCPA and with ADB support to introduce Gender Responsive Budgeting (‘GRB’).
This means that the GRB will be relevant throughout the budget cycle, including in the planning and design of budgetary policies that promotes gender equality, the allocation of resources to implement them, the tracking of resources to ensure that adequate resources are allocated and policies are implemented as intended and the monitoring and evaluation of the efficiency and effectiveness of policies, including the impacts evaluated.
Through ADB, a gender specialist was engaged in November 2019 and has been working closely with the Budget and Planning Division of the MoE and the MWCPA to assess the gender responsiveness of the current budget.

With this a Public Expenditure and Financial Accountability (PEFA) Supplementary framework for assessing GRB was used.

Once this process is in place, then we can formalize gender budgeting and also address gender impact analysis in our Government projects.
8.2 In terms of rehabilitation of schools, public buildings, homes/dwellings and home care under the CARE for Fiji, does the Ministry publish its Annual reports which include information on gender related expenditure and the impacts of budget policies on gender equality.

At this stage, such gender related expenditure information are not fully realised in the reports.
However, the process of introducing gender responsive budgeting (GRB) into the 2020-2021 budget process will facilitate the provision of such information in the annual reports.

At this stage, the MoE together with the Ministry of Women is working with two pilot ministries, that is, the Ministry Fisheries and MITT to commence with GRB.

They are currently undergoing certain trainings on gender impact analysis.
Through this, the PAC should expect to see some form of gender impact analysis and sex disaggregated data to address gender equality in the two ministries reports.
PMWeb Database – CIU Ask About Capital Projects Update PMWeb is a Comprehensive Web Based Portfolio Management Solution PMWeb Modules: PMWeb addresses all parts of the project lifecycle Plan • Portfolio Planning • Initiatives • Estimating • Online Bidding • Funding Build • Budget & Cost Management • Document Controls • Schedule Operate •Asset Management •Work Orders •Project Request •Lease Management Easy Portfolio, Program & Project Oversight (PMWeb Interface) 100% web based Zero Footprint Multi-Browser (IE, Safari, Chrome, Firefox, Opera) Drag & Drop (easy to use) Multi-Language, Multi-Currency Visual Workflow (easy to setup) User-Defined Dashboard 5 Portfolio, Program & Project Oversight (Dashboards and Reports) Hyperlinks to Records (DHTML) Drilldown Google Maps Create Legal Letters from Report Export Switch Roles instantly 3D graphs/charts 6 Site Management (RFI processed with Workflow) Project Managment • A Program Record was set up for the Rehabilitation Works, and On-Going Capital Projects and Capital Projects for respective agencies, using PMWeb’s COTS Program Record • There are various features in PMWeb such as drop-down lists, configurable fields, checklists, clauses, notes, attachments etc.
• The Projects within the Program are automatically added to the Projects Tab as they are progressively created A Program Record was set up for the Rehabilitation Works, and On-Going Capital Projects and Capital Projects for respective agencies, using PMWeb’s COTS Program Record: Project Initiative • Example of A Project Record which was created for the Vuya District School.
Project Project Estimates Budget Budget Request Procurement Online Bidder Commitment Commitment VOs Progressive Payments Reports Payment for Vuya District School Project Dashboard Document Manager Document Manager is a central record that maintains documents in a windows-like folder structure.
Document Manager is optional, as documents can be attached to any individual record Right-click to open folder optionsThefirstfolderisautomaticallycreatedwhentheProjectRecordiscreated.Allotherfoldersareadded using the folder options below.
A strandardfolder structure can be included with any Template project.Every document uploaded to Document Manager becomes its own PMWeb record.Extensivemetadata, notes and attachments can be added to every document.The documentcanalsobeputthroughworkflowforreviewandapprovalThePMWeb Viewer can be used to mark up .pdf documents and drawing files Asset Management – PMWeb Database • Captures the in-depth details of building which includes Locations, spaces, respective levels, inventory details including equipment's and fittings tied to premises.
• It also includes Leases for government quarters owned by the government and office space rented from Private Stakeholders.

• Enhanced reports are systematically generated in terms of occupancy, tenure details, landlord details, office space size in square feet, rental rates, monthly/annual rental and respective agencies occupying the premises.

• Acts as efficient data storage for Government Asset.
Asset Management – PMWeb Database Sample Building Record Letting Agreement Leased Office Space Report Sample Report - Letting Agreement No.

List of Agencies Landlord Floor Area (Sq.

Ft.) Net Rent Rate per Sq.

Ft.

Facility Fees per Sq.

Ft. Net Rent Rate per Sq.

Ft. Total Floor Area Address of the building Lot No.
District Division Tenure Tenure (Effective) Tenure (Expiry) Net Rent (VEP) Service Fees (VEP) Total Monthly Rent (VEP) Annual Rental (VEP) Active or Non- Active LA0001 Elections Office LA0002 Ministry of Justice Allied Four Investment s Limited Serua Provincial Investment Cooperativ e Ltd LA0026 Ministry of Rural And Maritime Developme nt Namosi Provincial Council LA0031 Immigratio n Departmen t Fiji Island Revenue & Customs Authority 17,787 6,969 2 2 2 2 0 High St, Suva Suva Suva District 2 Central 3 Year Term 8/1/2018 7/31/2020 29,645 0 29,645 355,740 Active 6,969 Vuninokon oko Navua Namosi District 2 Central 20 Year 9/1/2005 8/31/2020 11,124 0 11,124 133,492 Active Term 7,864 1 1 7,864 Lot 1 DP8126 Navua Town Namosi District 2 Central 20 Year Term 1/1/2002 12/31/201 9 10,907 0 10,907 130,890 Active 7,496 2 2 7,496 Suva District 2 Central 5 Year Term 1/1/2010 12/31/201 4 12,493 0 12,493 149,920 Expired Tenancy Agreement Sample Report - Tenancy Agreement Quarters Allocation Report Project Number Quaretrs No.
Quarters Grade Address Area District Division Tenant QL0001 Quarter 4A-4B Residential Berkeley Crecent Domain Suva District 2 Central QL0002 Quarter 5 Residential Berkeley Crecent Domain Suva District 2 Central Republic of Fiji Military Force Republic of Fiji Military Force Occupation Type Contact Details Occupancy Date Rental Rate/ Valuation Rate Monthly Rental Rent Due Date Rent in Arrears 3313 799 2/20/2014 Free Rent $0.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 3313 799 2/20/2014 Free Rent $0.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 QL0003 Quarter 6 Residential Berkeley Crecent Domain Suva District 2 Central ITC Data Centre 132777 4/23/2007 Free Rent QL0004 Quarter 75 Residential Berkeley Crecent Domain Suva District 2 Central Republic of Fiji Military Force GR0001 Vinod Chauhan Residential Namaka Nadi District 1 Western Mayuko Sugita Nadi District 1 Western Toyin Jenyo Olawale Premises GR0002 Sharda Nand Naidu Premises Residential GR0003 Amos Zibran Premises Residential Legalega, Off Queens Rd Lot 23, SO 5118, CL 16681 GR0007 GR0008 GR0009 Jagdish Punja Premises Rajesh Kumar Karan Premises Farook Sahu Khan Premises Residential 5 Kama Street Residential Flat 2, Lot 25 Residential 7 Vunivadra Place Lot 3 DP 4299 Nukudrala Place P O Box 1343 Cuvu District 1 Western Ms. Sachiyo Goto 9147618 5/5/2017 $350.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 Naviti District 1 Western Dr Angel Mathews Expatriate Doctor 6661633 12/1/2017 $700.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 Bulu District 1 Western Azusa Yamano JICA 9026612 11/16/2018 $545.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 Naviti District 1 Western Peace Corp Peace Corp 9990356 12/1/2013 $550.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 Free Rent 3313 799 9767337 9262614 $0.00 $0.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 $500.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 $800.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 QL00191 Quarters 77 Residential 77 Berkeley Crescent Domain Suva District 2 Central Aisake Taito (Adi Elenoa) 3313 799 1 Year Term $1,000.00 3/1/2019 $0.00 Grants Management • Government Grants Initiative including Help For Homes Initiative and Homes Care Program enbales Beneficiary Procurement history and Identification is clearly incorporated in the PMWeb through project Management features such as drop-down lists, configurable fields, checklists, clauses, notes, attachments.
The clear identification of the Government Initiative Beneficiary; This has assisted in: a. b.

Report on the actual nature on how Government funds has been utillised based on the appropriate supporting payment evidences provided by Retailers.

(invoices, sales orders , Grants application forms) that MoE has received.

c. Reports the actual nature of delivery for building materials.
(As per the supporting documentation provided by Retailers) Grants Management Example – Onisivoro Natuquata (6792000010103355) Actual Report Housing Allowance • PMWeb has a feature which can automatically calculate Housing Allowance for respective eligible recipients as per the outlined Criteria as per PSC Circular.

• Systematic Reports are generated for enhanced assessment and decision making.
THANK YOU MINISTRY OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND POVERTY ALLEVIATION SUPPLEMENTARY WRITTEN RESPONSE Audit on Social Welfare Scheme (PP No 151 of 2019) Provide the desegregated data by sex, age and persons living with disability, the beneficiaries of the social pension scheme, poverty benefit scheme, child protection and food voucher for rural pregnant mothers.
Table 1: Program Target/Criteria 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 M F M F M F M F M F M F Poverty Benefit Scheme Care & Protection Social Pension Scheme Food Voucher for Rural Pregnant Mothers Bus Fare Subsidy Poor Households – targeting 10% poorest of the poor Children in poor single parent/guardian households Old Persons 65 years and above with no superannuation or source of income Pregnant Mothers in Rural areas Old Persons 60 years and above Persons with Disability 283 153 352 189 320 173 490 264 636 348 149 80 VERBATIM REPORT Report of the Auditor General – Performance Audit Report on: (Parliamentary Paper No.
151 of 2019) No.

1.

Ministry of Employment, Productivity & Industrial Relations Audit on Management of the Workers Compensation Trust Fund Witnesses 2.

Ministry of Economy Audit of Fiji Procurement Office and the Construction Implementation Unit 3.

Ministry of Women, Children & Poverty Alleviation Audit of Social Welfare Scheme Page No.

2 22 38 [VERBATIM REPORT] STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS AUDIT REPORT Performance Audit on Compensation Trust Fund (PP No.
151 of 2019) the Management of Workers ENTITY: Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations VENUE: Big Committee Room (East Wing) DATE: Monday, 9th March, 2020 VERBATIM NOTES OF THE MEETING OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS HELD AT THE BIG COMMITTEE ROOM (WEST WING), PARLIAMENT PRECINCTS, GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS ON MONDAY, 9TH MARCH, 2020 AT 1.08 P.M. Interviewee: Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations In Attendance: (1) Mr. Osea Cawaru (2) Mr. Tomasi Kama (3) Mr. Lui Mario (4) Ms. Shabana Khan (5) Mr. Pramendra Nair Office of the Auditor-General Permanent Secretary Director, Occupational Health & Safety Director, National Employment Centre Senior Labour Officer Manager Finance 1.
Mr. Moshin Ali 2.

Mr. Emosi Qiokacikaci 3.

Mr. Aminiasi Koroi Director Audit Senior Auditor Senior Auditor MR. CHAIRMAN.- Good afternoon, everyone.

I would like to call the house to order.

Today’s Public Accounts Committee inquiry is on the Performance Audit Report (PAR) for the Management of the Workers Compensation Trust Fund.
I take this opportunity to welcome:-      All Honourable Members; Members of the public, who are watching; Members of the media; The Permanent Secretary and staff from the Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations (The Ministry); and Auditors from the Office of the Auditor-General (OAG).
The Special Committee inquiry on the PAR for the Management of the Workers Compensation Trust Fund was established by resolution of Parliament when it was referred to the Committee on Friday, 22nd November, 2019.
It is a part of the 2 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 Committee’s responsibility to gather information from relevant stakeholders regarding the findings in the PAR.
The purpose of the inquiry is: (1) To allow a witness or witnesses to present and produce relevant documents and information in line with the findings of the PAR; (2) To allow the Committee to ask questions specifically related to the Ministry’s functions as far as this PAR is concerned; (3) To allow the witness or witnesses to respond to the Committee’s questions; and (4) To provide important information that will assist the Committee in the formulation of its report to Parliament particularly our findings with recommendations that will be debated in the House.
Before we proceed any further, for the interest of the general public watching this session, I would just like to give a brief summary on the PAR, Parliamentary Paper No.

151 of 2019, on Management of the Workers Compensation Trust Fund.

The OAG carried out a performance audit on the Management of the Workers Compensation Trust Fund account of the Ministry.
The overall objective of the audit was to assess the effectiveness of the Workmen Compensation Unit (WCU) under the OHS Division of the Ministry in the processing of compensation payment for workmen during the period August 2017 to May 2018.

The audit examined a total of 84 compensation case files out of which 48 were private sector injury cases, 17 government injury cases, two private death cases and 17 government death cases.

Payments made during the period of review amounted to $1.4 million.
Another 86 cases were separately considered for detailed testing of the IT system controls to ascertain whether the database is updated and all information is captured.

A total of 81 withdrawals had been made between years 2016 and 2018 totalling up to $67,422 for Dependants (minors) Trust Fund Bank accounts were separately reviewed.
Following the conclusion of the audit, it was gathered that the WCU did not fully comply with:  The Workmen’s Compensation Act 1964;  The Workmen’s Compensation (Amendment) Act 2015;  The Workmen’s Compensation (Amendment) Act 2017;  Related Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs); and 3 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020  Financial Policy Guidelines.
It is anticipated that by the end of this inquiry the Committee will determine whether the Ministry complied in all material respect to:  The Workmen’s Compensation Act 1964;  Workmen’s Compensation (Amendment) Act 2015;  Workmen’s Compensation (Amendment) Act 2017;  Workmen’s Compensation (Occupational Diseases) Regulations 2017;  SOPs; and  Financial Policy Guidelines.
Based on evidence and today’s hearing, the Committee will decide.- (1) Whether employment related personnel injuries and death cases are reported by employers to the Ministry in a timely manner and are being compensated accordingly in a timely manner; (2) Whether the Ministry complied with the various legislations and policies that have already been mentioned when processing the compensation amount payable, whether the payment was made to only those that were entitled for compensation; (3) Whether the Ministry maintained proper accounting and related trust records in compliance with requirements of the Ministry’s Financial Manual, Financial Management Act 2004, Financial Management (Amendment) Act 2016, Finance Instruction 2010 and the Finance (Amendment) Instruction 2016.
Also, if all information is updated regularly in the workmen’s database; and (4) Whether the trust account records for dependants or minors of the deceased workmen are properly kept and all withdrawals are acquitted.

That, ladies and gentlemen, was a brief summary on the PAR, Parliamentary Paper No.

151 of 2019.

Before I actually get the Ministry to introduce its team, I would just like to declare my interest.
I am the Assistant Minister for Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations but I shall be sitting as Chairperson of the Committee this afternoon and in my best interest just to work as the Chairperson of the Committee.

Thank you.

PS, the floor is yours now, if you could introduce your team before we proceed any further.
4 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

In the team here with me this morning, I have Ms. Khan, a Senior Labour Officer, who deals with compensation cases.

On my left is the Director, OHS and WCU, Mr. Kama.

Beside him is Mr. Lui Mario.

Mr. Mario is the Director, NEC and former manager of the WCU.
On the far left is our Manager Finance, Mr Pramendra Nair.

He joined us this year.

Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

That was very briefly on the team and we thank you and the Honourable Members for this opportunity to present on the findings of the OAG.

Also, we acknowledge the presence of auditors here with us this morning.

In terms of how I will go through my presentation, maybe I will just … MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you, PS.

We will now give the floor to staff of the OAG to introduce themselves.
For the interest of everyone present here, we are live on television and if there is any information that you think should not go out publicly then it can be given to the Committee either in writing or privately.

Therefore, if there is anything that you do not want to divulge on air, let me know and we will try to accommodate that as well.

Thank you.

MR. M. ALI.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

My name is Mr. Moshin Ali.

I am the Director, Audit.


With me this afternoon are senior auditors, Mr. Emosi Qiokacikaci and Mr. Aminiasi Koroi.

Thank you, Honourable Chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you, the team from the OAG.

Now the Honourable Members will be asking relevant questions and following that will be certain supplementary questions.

We might interject anywhere.

If the OAG team feels an answer is not appropriate or if they require further clarifications then they can chip in as well through the Chair.
We will start with the Honourable Vijendra Prakash.

HON.

V. PRAKASH.- Thank you very much, Honourable Chair.

What has been done to improve enforcement mechanisms regarding delays in reporting of work-related injuries/ deaths cases?

What improvement has been shown?

Thank you, Chair.

MR. O. CAWARU.- Honourable Member, thank you for the question.

Honourable Members, as per the Workmen’s Compensation (Amendment) Act 2017, officers can issue demand notices to obtain documentation.
The officers are currently issuing demand notices to both public and private sectors for the release of relevant documents such as the reporting of cases by filling in the appropriate form, the LD Form C1.

The WCU and the National OHS Services have been carrying out joint awareness programmes for stakeholders on the provisions of workmen’s compensation and the Workmen’s Compensation (Repeal) Act 2018.
The Accident Compensation Commission of Fiji 5 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 (ACCF) has been assisting us with public awareness on accident reporting mechanisms for accidents sustained since January, 2019.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you, PS.

I believe there is a supplementary question from Honourable Aseri Radrodro.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Thank you, Chair.


PS, just a clarification on the answers given.

The audit noted delays in the reporting of cases and you mentioned specifically about awareness.

Can you enlighten the Committee on what was done before, whether awareness was carried out before and whether this awareness that you highlighted, what sort of awareness are you going to undertake?

Is it consultation?

What improvement has it done to the processing of workmen’s compensation claims?
MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

Awareness programmes have been done in previous years.

The awareness programme that the inspectors are currently working on is based on the 2017 amendment in terms of the new amendments to the legislation.

That is an addition to the awareness programmes conducted compared to prior years on the repeal provision that is mostly on the delays in submission or release of documents required by the inspectors to conduct investigations.

HON.
HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Can you enlighten the Committee on who is really responsible for reporting workplace injuries or any such related matters to the Ministry?

Is it the role of the employer, is it the role of the employee, contractor or sub-contractor?

Who is really responsible and how does the Ministry monitor these mechanisms to ensure that all injuries related to workplace are reported to the Ministry?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Member.


Yes, awareness programmes have been done in previous years.

The awareness programme that the inspectors are currently working on is based on the Workmen’s Compensation (Amendment) Act 2017.

In terms of new amendments to the legislation, that is in addition to the awareness programmes of prior years.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Could you enlighten the Committee on who is really responsible for reporting workplace injuries or such related matters to the Ministry?
Is it the responsibility of the employer?

Is it the responsibility of the employee, contractor or sub-contractor?

Who is really responsible?

How does the Ministry monitor this mechanism to ensure that all injuries related to workplaces are reported to the Ministry?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

In terms of responsibility, it is the key responsibility of the employer but practically in cases that are reported, normally we have cases reported by employees as well.
6 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 HON.

V. PRAKASH.- Chair, supplementary questions.

Thank you very much, Chair and through you.

Would you be able to elaborate on OHS committees that need to be established at different organisational levels, Sir?

Who qualifies to have a compulsory OHS committee?


What about those that do not qualify for the OHS committee because of less numbers?

What happens to that organisation in terms of OHS cases?

Thank you, Chair.

MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Chair.

Maybe I will pass this to the Director, OHS for the answer.

MR. T. KAMA.- Thank you, Chair.

Honourable Member, thank you for the question.


In terms of OHS committees, the requirement under the law is that it applies to workplaces where there are more than 20 workers.

Therefore, any workplace with more than 20 workers must set-up an OHS committee.

An OHS committee shall comprise workers’ representatives and the employer’s nominee.

For workplaces with less than 20 workers, the law requires them to have a health and safety representative.

Thank you.

HON.
Thank you.

HON.

V. PRAKASH.- Chair, thank you very much.

The OHS committee is through legislation.

Does it have a responsibility to try and inform the Ministry about injuries and deaths at workplace?

MR. T. KAMA.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

The OHS committee plays a role in terms of investigating workplace injuries but the reporting still rests with the employer because the OHS committee will have an employer representative.

In some instances, workers come and report it themselves.

Thank you.
Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Does the Ministry provide training for these OHS committees within workplaces?

How do you conduct such training?

MR. T. KAMA.- Thank you, Chair.

Training is a requirement under the Act.

It is conducted every two years for committee reps.

There are other trainings conducted too.

Some are mandatory under the law and some as part of consultancy service of the National OHS Service.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Does the Ministry utilise the services of its own employees to conduct trainings?
Are consultants brought from outside?

MR. T. KAMA.- For most trainings, the resource personnel are from the Ministry.

It is done through the inspectors.

Thank you, Chair.

7 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you.

Yes, Honourable Aseri Radrodro.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Thank you, Chair.


PS, another supplementary question based on your answers.

The OAG highlighted that delays in reporting are basically due to lack of awareness and human resources capabilities within the organisation.

It is specifically for Government ministries and departments, the majority of delays in terms of reporting work-related injuries.

Could you give your commentaries on whether this is still continuing from the date of audit to date?
MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

That is a valid comment.

The Ministry is currently making use of roadshows apart from the normal awareness that we do.

We highlight this in the Ministry’s roadshows in terms of making reporting forthcoming because while you can have legislation but in terms of awareness of the reporting, it is a challenge and I will continue to improve it.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Thank you, Chair.


Would it be fair to say that this still is an area for improvement in terms of the Government ministries and departments?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Yes, Honourable Member.

As we speak, I cannot say that we have a perfect system as yet but awareness is always a challenge and that is something we will continue to improve.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, a supplementary question on comments about the ACCF by the PS.
Could you elaborate to the Committee on how the two entities work to address workmen’s compensation?

What is the basis that you are now using to work with them?

MS. S. KHAN.- Thank you, Sir.

There is collaboration between the Ministry and the ACCF.

The Ministry’s role is to assist the ACCF.

We have the Accident Compensation (Employment Accidents) Regulations 2018 where the Ministry is required to help the ACCF.
One of our responsibilities to the ACCF is that the employers are still required to report workplace injuries and deaths to the Ministry’s PS and also to the ACCF.

Secondly, in terms of when workers are actually on sick leave and not paid two-thirds of wages.

The Ministry, on behalf of the ACCF sends the outstanding two-thirds wages claims to the respective employers.

The Ministry ensures that those workers, who are not paid the two- thirds of wages due to work-related accidents, are paid.
8 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 Thirdly, in terms of occupational diseases contracted from January 1st, 2019 when the ACCF came into force.

The Ministry does investigations for the ACCF and then reports are submitted to the ACCF for its determination.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- The reporting comes to … MS. S. KHAN.- Yes, Sir.
The workplace accident reporting comes to the Ministry and also the ACCF.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- (Inaudible) MS. S. KHAN.- Sir, when it comes to the Ministry, we analyse those cases as well.

In certain cases, fatalities and major injuries are reported, that is when we tap our OHS officers to do OHS investigations.
When workers would come to report complaints about non-payment of two-thirds wages, the Ministry’s role includes checking those ACCM 01 forms received to see whether a particular case had been reported, contacting the employer and calculating two-thirds wages.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Will the ACCF carry out another investigation once the Ministry concludes its investigation and submits a report?

Does the ACCF work on the recommendations of the Ministry?
I believe that is where Honourable Aseri Radrodro is trying to come from whether there is duplication of work that is carried out by the two agencies or is it just one.

MS. S. KHAN.- On behalf of the ACCF, the Ministry investigates cases of occupational diseases and non-payment of two-thirds wages.

Other investigations pertaining to death cases are done by the ACCF.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Yes, Honourable Naiqama.

HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.


Thank you, PS and officials for the great replies that you have been providing.

Just on this issue of the role that the ACCF plays as against the Ministry and the taskforce formed by the Ministry in 2019.

Can I refer you to the data provided here in your reply, the last page?
You have recorded, right on the last sentence that there were 24,434 cases reported over 22 years from 1996 to 2018 but this taskforce that you have reported on page one of your reply only began in 2019.

Could you guide the Committee as to how the Ministry was able to match this data here on the last page as against the one on page one?
9 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 Secondly, we have been informed on several occasions by the Honourable Attorney-General in Parliament that the Honourable Prime Minister gave special instructions to the military to help in the reduction of outstanding cases that were before the Ministry.
Where is that work as you reported here, in this data of yours from page one right down to the last sentence?

Thank you, Honourable Chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you for that question, Honourable Member.

What is the Ministry’s response?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

I can see that part of our answers on the questions being posed by the Honourable Member is highlighted in our response to question one.
It is in terms of the latest that we now have and on the question being posed in terms of the figure that appears on the very last page, the 24,434, this is the total number of cases reported to the Ministry in the period 1996 to 2018.

HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- Honourable Chair, the issue I am trying to raise here is on the data that was presented on page one and the last page.

Sorry, PS.
Sorry, PS.

I find it confusing, so to speak because it does not tally even though you are doing some explanation now but it does not reflect that in your report that you have submitted to us here.

Where does that input from the Honourable Prime Minister come into play, where the input from the military has reduced or probably taken out all the outstanding cases that were there before the Ministry’s taskforce began work in 2019?

That is missing.

Thank you, Honourable Chair.


MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you for the comment, Honourable Member.

We can submit further a detailed report in terms of what we have achieved over the years but very briefly, from the 24,434 reported cases, all in all, as we speak today, with the assistance of doctors sent from the military and other military officers, about 15 of them if I am correct, they came and assisted the Ministry.

That had a big impact on reducing the 24,434 cases.
As we speak, the balance is 1,694.

That is the balance of all reported cases.

Some are compensable cases, some are non-compensable cases and for some we have to do other inspections but from that big amount of 24,434, now we are left with only 1,694.

HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- I hope that reflects the taskforce’s total commitment to this task that you have, the input from the military.

Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Honourable Member, I stand to be corrected on this one.
Maybe a clarification from the PS.

This taskforce was only created when the ACCF came into the picture.

The taskforce was assigned to clear all those pending cases that were 10 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 before the Ministry and not the new cases coming in.

Can you confirm if that is the case, PS?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Yes, Honourable Chair.


I will just clarify that.

The taskforce was set-up in 2010 but the taskforce that we are mentioning in our report this morning is a special taskforce that I formed within the Ministry to assist … HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- How many taskforce?

MR. O. CAWARU.- … the bigger taskforce where we have the 15 military personnel.

Now it is only the internal staff after the military personnel had gone back.
This is just an initiative that we worked on internally to help reduce the backlog of cases because the Ministry was given six years to complete all pending cases.

These are cases reported to the Ministry prior to January 1st, 2019.

I am focusing to clear all the cases prior to January 1st, 2019 before everything moves on to the ACCF and that is through the taskforce formed internally.

All the backlog cases that are within the Ministry’s court and that is the balance we have to date.

HON.

RATU N.T.
HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

Just to go back to the issue that you raised, Honourable Chair.

My supplementary question is premised on your data that is before us here and our role is simply to scrutinise the Government spending and whether it is the military coming in or the Ministry, in trying to address the problem that we have before us, I think it is only proper, it is good that we have heard from you that you are going to provide us another update on that.
Honourable Chair, at the same time, I would like to ask if the PS could clarify because your data here goes back 22 years (1996) to 2018.

I did not pick that out from thin air or something.

It is according to your report here but again, if that is going to be your report then could you also help the Committee fully understand the big taskforce and the small taskforce that you have just mentioned.
We would like to see that we are on the same path in trying to understand the big role that your taskforce is playing here rather than not included and all of a sudden we are hearing it from you here, Sir.

Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Those comments are well noted.

Moving further on.

Honourable Joseph Nand, I believe you have a question.

HON.

J.N.

NAND.- Thank you, Chair.

Through you, a question to the PS or perhaps the person in charge of finance.
The Committee notes that no proper records of trust fund receipts issued during the year were maintained.

What is the reason for this?

11 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 What has the Ministry done to address this issue and ensure that it does not reoccur?

Thank you, Honourable Chair.

(Pause) HON.

J.N.

NAND.- May I go over the question once again, Chair?
MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you.

This is on trust fund.

What is the reason for this?

What has the Ministry done to address the issue and ensure that it does not reoccur?

This is on trust funds.

Alright, very briefly, Honourable Chair.

In the past there were weaknesses and I can admit that.

There was oversight in internal control regarding the management of revenue receipt books where revenue receipt books were issued to staff but they actually failed to sign in the register.
Further, please note that there are no missing or stolen receipt books at this moment.

However, the Ministry maintains a proper main stock register now and ensures that staff sign off in the main stock register when uplifting the receipt books.

For cases where revenue receipt books are posted to our other offices in the districts outside Suva, delivery is by courier.

Receipts are attached as evidence that books have been sent to the respective offices.
In addition, staff in the division are now required to sign the acknowledgement form, as we have submitted as part of our submission this morning, that staff have actually received revenue receipt books.

I think this is just an internal control within us that we really need to tighten, Honourable Chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you.

Is there a supplementary question?

Yes, Honourable Radrodro.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- A question for the PS.

You mentioned about internal control measures.


Why was it allowed to happen in the first place?

Why did the Ministry fail to address it?

What particular disciplinary measures have been dished out to the people that were supposed to be doing the job?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

That is something I have to tighten up.

It is about one year on since I joined the Ministry.
Honourable Member, I think this has been addressed and in terms of SOPs, it is something that we will really need to keep updating to ensure there is no recurrence.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Is the Ministry following proper financial instructions of the Government or is it just creating its own processes which led to these deficiencies?
12 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 MR. O. CAWARU.- Yes, Honourable Member.

We are following the financial instructions but I think it is just an oversight or laxity in amongst the staff.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you for that deliberation on the question posed by Honourable Aseri Radrodro, PS.

We have seen that medical reports are not available in a timely manner.
What are some of the strategies that the Ministry has to ensure that medical reports are submitted in a timely manner?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

What strategy has the Ministry implemented to ensure medial reports are available in a timely manner?

For the information of the Committee, we have fulltime consultants, an occupational physician since 2010 and an occupational nurse, who joined in 2017.

They assist in the conduct of final medical assessments for injury cases.
Also, they provide medical opinion on death cases.

The medical team conducts quarterly medical assessments for our clients as well.

These clients are in districts including Labasa, Savusavu, Lautoka, Ba, Nadi and Sigatoka.

This includes monthly assessments in Suva for cases from the central and eastern divisions.

Working cases are assessed individually and on a timely basis by our doctor and occupational nurse.
Medical opinion for death cases outlining whether the deaths are work-related or otherwise, such opinions are provided on a weekly basis.

Five opinions are released weekly.

In addition to the above, from 2010 to 2019 the Ministry trained 187 medical doctors to carry out similar medical assessments for workmen’s compensation cases.

These medical doctors are carrying out assessments Fiji-wide whereby our staff in the respective districts do follow-ups to obtain the required medical reports.
Thank you, Honourable Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you, PS.

Are there supplementary questions on that?

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, a supplementary question to the PS.

It is regarding the recommendations of the OAG.

Could you just inform the Committee on the four recommendations that are there whether they have all been implemented or are you yet to implement those recommendations?

(Pause) HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Honourable Chair, if I could just take the lead there.
The Ministry should consider signing a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with agencies such as the Fiji Revenue & Customs Service (FRCS) for the purpose of obtaining 13 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 revenue records of employers on the timely basis as required under Section 14 (3) (a) of the Workmen’s Compensation Act.
Have you worked on something to sign a MOU with FRCS?

Is it proper?

What is the logic of the recommendation, OAG?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

We have not discussed this with the FRCS.

This is something that we will need to sit down with the auditors and then move forward.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Would you like to elaborate on that, OAG?

AUDIT REP.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

Through you.
Through you.

The logic behind us providing this recommendation is provided under Section 14 (3) (a) whereby the Ministry needs to determine the revenue record or the gross turnover of the company or the entity where the accident happened.

I think that gives them a benchmark on the amount of compensation.

Sorry, the penalty that will be paid by the employer if there was non- compliance.

We have seen from our audit that this is an area of challenge for the Ministry.
This is in terms of obtaining up-to-date data or the financial records of companies.

As we understand, sometimes companies are reluctant to give their financial records for such investigations so we thought given the fact that the FRCS would be in a better position to assist the Ministry in terms of obtaining those financial records thus giving compliance to Section 14 (3)(a) of the Act.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you for that explanation.


Before we go into recommendations, I have a question for the PS and the OAG.

This audit report covers the period August 2017 to May 2018.

The ACCF came into the picture from January 1st, 2019.

Does this recommendation still has some basis to it because now majority of things have moved from the Ministry to the ACCF?

Is this particular recommendation applicable to the ACCF because the Ministry is not dealing with most of these cases now?
Will it make any sense to go with this recommendation when majority work has been passed to the ACCF?

Could you elaborate on that?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

That is a valid comment in terms of the timeline we have.

As I elaborated earlier, the pending cases we have now is 1,694.
I think it is a matter of us going back and seeing for now what are the cases that require financial statements and then maybe we will explore that option to sign a MOU or just work with the FRCS on a daily basis to clear these cases.

These are pending cases with us for now but moving forward that is something we can discuss with the ACCF as well.
14 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, I just wanted to clarify something in terms of the figures that you put down.

The role that the ACCF plays in the Ministry and the number that you have is 1,603.

We note from your reply that the ACCF had taken over from January 1st, 2019.
Does it mean that there are no further cases being reported to the Ministry after January 2019?

Has it all been directed to the ACCF?

Can you just clarify that?

MS. S. KHAN.- Thank you, Sir.

The Ministry deals with cases relating to deaths and accidents which happened until December 31st, 2018.

We received very few cases that occurred in 2018 but reported later in 2019 or 2020.

We received very few cases probably three or four in a month.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- The onus is on the employer.


You still have not answered the question whether the number that you have from 2019, all those cases have now been referred to the ACCF instead of the Ministry.

MS. S. KHAN.- Yes, Sir.

All cases of year 2019 have been referred to the ACCF.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Currently, the Ministry is basically working on all cases until … MS. S. KHAN.- December 31st, 2018, Sir.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Is there any further question?

Yes, OAG.
Yes, OAG.

AUDIT REP.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

Just a point that we would like to clarify in line with what we said about getting financial data of entities from the FRCS.

For the Ministry to be able to effectively invoke the fixed penalty notice, I think whenever there is a delay then there is a penalty that needs to be paid, so in order for the Ministry to be able to calculate the penalty and that is where we are coming from, the need to get that financial data.
I think this is one area where there is some good delay after injuries are reported because the provision is there, however, if it is perhaps invoked quite stringently then things would be better.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you.

Those comments are noted.

Yes, Honourable Radrodro.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.-Thank you, Chair.

PS, just a clarification on the Workmen’s Compensation (Repeal) Act 2018.

Now all cases are being referred to the ACCF.


Why are you still working on those outstanding cases if the Workmen’s 15 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 Compensation Act has been repealed?

Could you just elaborate on this repealed Act that is in place regarding workmen’s compensation?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Could you repeat the question, Honourable Member?

HON.
HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- It is the Workmen’s Compensation (Repeal) Act 2018 which allows the ACCF to now look into the workmen’s compensation instead of the Ministry.

Are you aware of that repealed Act?

MS. S. KHAN.- Yes, Sir.

The repealed Act states that there is a transition period and for the Ministry to deal with cases until December 31st, 2018.

The repealed Act clearly states that from January 1st, 2019, it shifted to the ACCF.

HON.
HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.-You are just looking at the … MS. S. KHAN.- Yes, just until 31st December (2018).

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Is this recommendation then valid to the Ministry’s operations going forward or should it be directed to the ACCF now?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Yes, Honourable Member.

Like I mentioned earlier, this is valid.

For some of these, we will need to discuss it with the ACCF moving forward.

HON.
HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just on the fourth recommendation that the Ministry should work closely with the Ministry of Health and the Fiji Police Force (FPF) to put in place mechanisms to ensure that all related injuries and deaths at workplaces are reported, investigated and compensated accordingly.

Has the Ministry undertaken any of these?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Yes, Honourable Member.

This is a normal exercise with the Ministry.


We have to work closely with the Ministry of Health and the FPF in terms of death cases.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Would it be fair to say that if death cases are not reported then affected workers would not be compensated accordingly by the employers?

If cases of injuries and deaths are not reported by the employers then the process of compensation will not activate.

MR. O. CAWARU.- Yes, in some cases we came across that.
We have a time period of six years in terms of reporting of such cases to the Ministry.
16 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 MR. CHAIRMAN.- PS, basically what you are trying to say is that once the Ministry has dealt with these pending 1,600-odd cases, these cases before December 31st, 2018, the Ministry’s role with regards to all these will be more so at an advocacy level to employers as to how such cases are supposed to be reported.
Will you continue with that advocacy or is that going to the ACCF as well?

Will you continue to provide these trainings under OHS?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Yes, Honourable Chair.

That is a continuing role of OHS in terms of advocacy from the perspective of occupational diseases.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just a clarification in terms of the work carried out now by the ACCF.
Does the Ministry liaise with the ACCF about going forward to ensure that there is no repeat of long delays in solving cases of workplace injuries and deaths?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Yes, Honourable Member.

We do that.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you.

Is there any further question?

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, I have a question on the American Medical Association (AMA) Guidelines that has been highlighted in the OAG report.
Could you just inform the Committee whether necessary approval has been obtained for the AMA Guidelines?

Could you please elaborate if it is done?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

This is the approval on the use of the AMA Guidelines.

Have we obtained approval on the use of this AMA?

The AMA Guidelines are universally available as a published book.
They are used throughout the world as an authoritative text explaining methodology to be used by medical doctors for assessment of permanent impairment cases.

They are the most commonly used guides for this purpose in jurisdictions throughout Australia as well as elsewhere in the world.

Since there are no equal alternatives available, approval has never been required from the AMA for the use of these guidelines by whoever wishing to use it.
Briefly, this is an available text and it is open worldwide for use by medical doctors in terms of assisting them in assessing impairment cases.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- … say Fiji Impairment Guide as per recommendation from the OAG.

MR. O. CAWARU.- Yes, we have.

We have developed a guide tailor-made for our medical doctors here in Fiji.
17 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Will that only be used for pending cases until December 31st, 2018?

MR. O. CAWARU.- That is something we will have to pass on to the ACCF.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you, Honourable Members and the PS.

I believe that brings us to the end of today’s submission.
We believe you have provided us with very comprehensive responses with regards to the questions relating to the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs).

I will allow Honourable Radrodro one more question.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Thank you, PS.

Just a question regarding a recommendation by the OAG.

It relates to transferring trust monies for minors to the Fiji Public Trustee Corporation Limited (FPTCL).

Has the Ministry considered that recommendation?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Yes we have, Honourable Member.


That is something that we are working on especially the amendment of the current policy that we have before moving to the recommendation on the transfer of trust funds.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Is that something you will consider for the remaining 1,600 cases?

MR. O. CAWARU.- Honourable Member, yes.

We have to because trust fund accounts were opened way back since this legislation was implemented.
Only dependents can withdraw or close the trust accounts once they turn 21.

There are trust accounts available with us so it is only valid that we explore this recommendation.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you, PS.

Is there a final comment from the Ministry before we close this session?

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, probably just to the OAG.

Will you do a follow- up audit on this one or will you be going to the ACCF?

OAG REP.- Thank you, Honourable Member.


As the PS has discussed about the pending cases, we will do a follow-up on the cases which are to be resolved prior to 2019.

Also, as the PS mentioned, we agree that we can sit down together and have a look at some of these recommendations especially how this can be carried forward with the ACCF.

It is just to make sure that our recommendations are implemented and we are willing to work with the Ministry.
18 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you, OAG.

Yes, final comments from the Ministry before we close.

MR. O. CAWARU.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

At this moment we have no further comments to make but we thank the Committee for this opportunity.
I think the challenge is now back on us to improve areas that needs to be improved in terms of avoiding recurrence in terms of audits.

Thank you again, Honourable Chair and Honourable Members for this opportunity.

Vinaka.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you, PS and the team from the Ministry for presenting before the Committee this afternoon to give clarity on certain questions raised.

I will request Honourable Ratu Naiqama Lalabalavu for some final comments on behalf of the Committee.

Thank you.

HON.

RATU N.T.


LALABALAVU.- Thank you and through you, Honourable Chair.

PS, thank you once again for the information you provided to the Committee.

It kind of shed some light on areas that we felt were a bit grey, some areas of your reporting and the actual work that you are doing.
I mean, when I said shed some light, now I can understand that the ACCF is in the driver’s seat going forward from 2019 and that hopefully should be able to take care of these compensation issues for our employers especially when we have targets like SDG 8.8 being one that the Government or the Parliament has agreed to adhere to.

With the works that you are doing, it is not easy.


You had backlogs in the past, how that was created in the absence of SOPs and the AMA Guidelines but you finally got some SOPs now through the American ones.

We have guidelines to follow where medical officers are able to come in and adhere to it.

The most important thing is not only the role of the employers but the Ministry as well or the Government as a whole, to ensure that workers are treated right since we are part of SDG 8.8 now.
On that note, we thank you and your colleagues.

Also, I thank the OAG and his staff for the great audit that they undertake.

Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you, Honourable Ratu Naiqama Lalabalavu.

With those words, we will adjourn the meeting until 2.30 p.m. We will resume with another submission at 2.30 p.m.

Thank you.
The Committee adjourned at 2.11 p.m. 19 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 20 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit on the Management of Workers Compensation Trust Fund – Ministry of Employment, Productivity and Industrial Relations Monday, 9th March, 2020 [VERBATIM REPORT] STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS AUDIT REPORT Performance Audit of Fiji Procurement Office and the Construction Implementation Unit (PP No.
151 of 2019) ENTITY: Ministry of Economy VENUE: Big Committee Room (East Wing) DATE: Monday, 9th March, 2020 VERBATIM NOTES OF THE MEETING OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS HELD AT THE BIG COMMITTEE ROOM (WEST WING), PARLIAMENT PRECINCTS, GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS ON MONDAY, 9TH MARCH, 2020 AT 2.38 P.M. Interviewee: Ministry of Economy In Attendance: (1) Mr. Saimoni Veramu (2) Mr. Ashwin Singh (3) Mr. Mohammed Shah (4) Mr. Neelam Raj (5) Mr. Kaushil Bali (6) Mr. Seru Tagicakibau (7) Mr. Ravikash Reddy (8) Mr. Zuhayr M. Ali Office of the Auditor-General Head of Fiji Procurement Office Senior Procurement Officer Head of CIU Manager Finance - CIU Finance Associate - CIU Manager Projects - CIU Project Coordinator - CIU System Analyst - CIU (1) Mr. Moshin Ali (2) Mr. Emosi Qiokacikaci (3) Mr. Aminiasi Koroi Director Audit Senior Auditor Senior Auditor MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you and good afternoon to you all.
I shall now call the house to order.

Today’s Public Accounts Committee (The Committee) inquiry is on the Performance Audit Report (PAR) of the Fiji Procurement Office (FPO) and the Construction Implementation Unit (CIU).

I would like to welcome: All Honourable Members;   Members of the public, who are watching;  Members of the media;   Staff from the Ministry of Economy (MoE); and Auditors from the Office of the Auditor-General (OAG).
This Special Committee inquiry on the PAR of the FPO and the CIU was established by resolution of Parliament when it was referred to the Committee on Friday, November 22nd, 2019.

It is part of the Committee’s responsibility to gather information from the relevant stakeholders regarding the findings in the PAR.

The purpose of this inquiry is: (1) To allow a witness or witnesses to present and produce relevant documents and information in line with the findings of the PAR.
(2) To allow the Committee to ask questions specifically related to the Ministry’s function as far as this PAR is concerned; 2 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 (3) To allow a witness or witnesses to respond to the Committee’s questions; and (4) To provide important information that will assist the Committee in the formulation of its report to Parliament particularly on our findings with recommendations that will be debated in the House.
(Introduction of Honourable Members and Secretariat by Mr. Chairman) Without any further delay, for the people watching us, I would like to provide a brief summary of the PAR, Parliamentary Paper No.

151 of 2019 before requesting staff from MoE to introduce themselves and present on the report itself.

The OAG conducted a performance audit on the FPO and CIU of the MoE.
The overall objective of the audit was to assess the effectiveness of the FPO and CIU in complying with the Fiji Procurement Regulations 2010, the Procurement (Amendment) Regulation 2012, the Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) and relevant guidelines.

The audit covers two main phases that the procurement of capital construction work goes through and these are:  The tender process phase; and  The construction phase.
In terms of the tender process phase, the audit focussed on the general function of the FPO over the procurement at whole of Government level as provided under Section 5 of the Procurement Regulations 2010 and the performance of the tender process against the required timeliness as provided in the Guide to Tender Evaluation and Process.

In terms of the construction phase, the audit focussed on the general function of the CIU over procurement and management of construction works.
Also, its performance in managing the project against the required timelines as provided in the Government Tender Board (GTB) approval.

The subject matter of this audit is the procurement process with special emphasis on the procurement in construction works considered by the FPO and the CIU.

I wish to remind Honourable Members that this report does not cover technical aspects of the tenders assessed.
At the conclusion of this hearing, the Committee will determine whether the FPO complied in all material respects with the.-     Fiji Procurement Office Regulation 2010; Procurement (Amendment) Regulation 2012; SOPs; and Related policy guidelines.
Based on evidence and today’s hearing, the Committee will decide.-  Whether the FPO and the CIU have the necessary resources to operate efficiently; 3 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020  Whether the FPO and the CIU complied with relevant regulations and related policy guidelines while carrying out its functions; and  Whether capital construction projects are efficiently managed and delivered by the CIU.
With these few words, I invite officials from the MoE to introduce themselves followed by staff from the OAG.

Thank you.

MR. S. VERAMU.- Thank you, Sir.

My name is Saimoni Veramu.

I am the Head of Procurement for the FPO.

I think I will allow other members to introduce themselves.

MR. M. SHAH.- Thank you, Chair and Honourable Members.

My name is Shah.

I am the Head of the CIU.

My team members include Manager Finance, Mr. Neelam Raj and Manager Projects, Mr. Seru Tagicakibau.
Mr. Zuhayr Ali is our System Analyst.

Mr. Kaushil Bali is the Finance Associate and Mr. Ravikash Reddy is the Project Coordinator.

Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you for the introductions.

Without any further delay we will now go into the submission proper.

I believe the CIU has a presentation.

We will go straightaway into the presentation.

If there are follow-up questions, the Honourable Members will intervene to ask questions before we go into general business.

Thank you.
Thank you.

MR. M. SHAH.- Thank you, Chair and Members.

I take this opportunity to present short PowerPoint slides on the follow-up of 2016 and 2017 Committee presentations as far as the overall database that was requested at that point in time.

Chair, Sir, after the proper procurement methodology through the ITCS Board, we managed to get the database from Australia.

This is giving us an overall project administration and coordination reflection of the entire projects being handled by the Government.
Also, highlighted during that 2016- 2017 audit presentation were issues on staff quarters, housing allowance and governmental rental and all that so we tried to ensure that whatever we get for the Government to use, the database should be able to capture all.

I have a very short presentation.

It is all about projects.

All ministries, government departments and private agencies, they normally ask, what is happening to this project or what is happening to that project.
We are putting PMWeb as asking about the project itself.

It is a complete web-based solution and is very comprehensive but an easy to use system.

Moving forward, as we know all projects have got plan, build and operate aspects of it but now on the system we have the complete package of planning, cost management, engineering forms, scheduling, asset management, workflow portfolio and toolbox.

As we go along we will be able to explain and we will be happy to take questions as well.
The reason we said that it was easy and user-friendly is because we can just drag and drop, copy and paste from Excel or export to Excel and then work it out, our formulas and work it back.

It is a modern interface connectivity.

Once it is with appropriate agencies like the Ministry of Lands, majority of our projects then can be tagged on Google maps as well.
We should be able to know, if we need to see Navosa Hospital, x, y and z schools and things like that, we should be able to click on the name and then the system will just take you there.

If you want to know where is Thomas Baker Memorial School, you click on it, go to Google map and then it will be programmed there.
As far as the other modules are concerned, the portfolio 4 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 programme and project oversight, we have realised that before formation of CIU, the MoE was relying a lot in terms of information gathered from respective agencies.

In here, at one stage, there was no provision or update given for the entire Government projects.
With this system, we will be able to have a complete system where we can just know the real status of the projects immediately and this can be filtered down to various security levels.

As far as the hyperlinks and... HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just a clarification on that.

What role does the CIU play in the MoE?

MR. M. SHAH.- Thank you for the question, Sir.

We are the central administrators of the projects itself, the entire projects and we are the central administrators of the database as well.
We provide links to budget and planning team, fiscal and policy team and the FPO.

We are moving away from paper-based work.

At the moment, majority of the designs, evaluation, tender analysis and all that is happening on paper.

With this database in place, we are not printing all the hard copies, so suppose if there is a five- member panel or evaluators then we had to print five sets of tender bids if required by each member.
Now it is all web-based, they can come and evaluate it while the tender is going and the confidentiality of the documents remain intact.

Moving forward, Sir.

The normal requirement for any project is to ensure that the project is having some oversight.

For instance, if a Permanent Secretary or Minister would like to know where the cash flows are as far as the commitment is, so they will click on the project dashboard which will show all the relevant details.
They really do not have to call us or the respective desk officers because everything is uploaded.

As far as the workflow is concerned, we have seen over the past years, in previous projects as well, a number of projects have some serious issues in terms of Request for Information (RFI) during projects.

Suppose a school manager wanted a hall or library to be extended but there is nowhere a document trail.

The auditors will go on and inspect that school only.
If we need to go and see a paper trail to it then definitely it captures the workflow like whose decision was it that this expenditure had been incurred or even if there is a variation.

In terms of the workflow, site management workflow, we are working with respective lead consultants, project managers or respective agencies so that the communication is well-captured throughout.

This happens when various high profile projects such as any hospital that we are doing.
During one meeting, another doctor or nurse is sitting and then during another meeting, another doctor or nurse is sitting.

It becomes very difficult for us to continue the information that is already in place for a previous one.

It is currently considered a time-saving tool.

Moving forward as far as the project management is concerned, we started in 2016.

Soon after we began, TC Winston had the impact so we have majority of the projects that are already live.
The system is live already so the projects that we have are mostly on rehabilitation.

Also, projects moving from 2017 onwards.

At the moment, the team is uploading all reverse 2019 and moving back so that all our documents get well and truly entered with everything being recorded because after TC Winston we realised that majority of the schools did not have as-built drawings, so we did not know where to start from.

We checked with the Ministry of Local Government, even town and city councils.
Also, the rural local authorities at that point in time.

They did not have approved drawings and designs so we had to 5 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 create the entire wheel again.
Having this on board, we are already scanning and uploading the executed contracts, documents, designs and all the specifications of the building together with the commissioning documents that has an engineer saying that this building is structurally sound to withstand so-and-so levels of wind speeds.

In a nutshell, God forbid should there be any disaster like TC Winston, at least we have all those resources available for those schools that are already repaired or reconstructed.

Moving forward, Sir.


We have a sample project such as the Vuya District School.

You will see that on the planning stage as discussed in the earlier slides, as far as the number of modules are concerned, we have initiatives, estimates, procurement setup and so forth.

Each of the modules are having various other drop-downs so we are able to save all documents and all work that we are doing.
Suppose if we need to know more about the same project, where is that project located, the status of it whether it is approved or still not approved, when it started or what are the other transactions involved relating to that.

Also, the system allows to capture the maximum price.

The maximum price is when the GTB approves that this project will cost a certain number of dollars, unless and until the variation is approved by the GTB, the system will not allow generation of payment.
The commitment will not be accepted by the system.

This actually works in favour of our cash and payments as well.

Also, our future non-compliance to audit whereby we see that majority of the expenditure or projects have been done with variations and there is no variation approval.

Chair, moving forward.

As far as the project estimates are concerned, we are able to generate majority of our estimates on the design list, so to speak.
The budget and budget request, should there be any budget allocated to our project and if there is any variation approved, we have to come back to budget request, use the system to ensure that appropriate budget is allocated to it and only then the commitment will happen.
Regarding procurement and online bidding, since the system was purchased and implemented after the FPO investment on tender link, we are not exploring this at the moment because we are still doing some internal consultations whether to use the PMWeb procurement or not because we do not want to be the judge and jury as roles of the CIU and the FPO are different.
As far as commitment is concerned, normally what happens is, every payment in the past and all, should the project be completed five years ago and we wanted to know who was the receiver, who was the payee, when and who came to the counter to receive this, whether the information was transmitted to a bank or not, whether rightful signatures were there or project closure statements were already provided or not, so we scan and capture everything on our attachments so payment one, who signed it and why was it signed, what was the assessment of the quantity surveyor and so forth will be readily available throughout meaning this year, 10 or 20 years down the line.
As far as the progressive payments and reports are concerned, we are able to update or generate reports immediately on what is the status of the project and how the project is behaving in terms of should it require any extension of time, should it require any contractual penalties so forth that we have to apply on the contractor or the consultant.

This is the sample of a dashboard.

Any dashboard that will be printed or generated from the system, it will be by clicking on it.
If you want Vuya District School, it will show the commitment level, the budget level as well as the actual cost.

6 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 Below, the table is all about respective cost codes as well.

If you want to know more, the details about respective cost codes, we click on those and then it takes you around to justify where these expenses are coming from.
The other portion of the dashboard actually spells out more details in terms of who is the project manager, who is the consultant or manager involved from the Ministry, when it is due and so forth.

This is another form of dashboard.

As far as document manager is concerned, there is another module that is on PMWeb whereby history of the projects is given.
So suppose if my tenure at the Ministry of Economy finishes or my colleague Mr. Saimoni’s, what happens is that when we leave and the hand over is not done properly at that point in time or if the officer dies then all the information that is available with that officer actually gets compact with the officer concerned.
We are having a compulsory requirement for the CIU officers to ensure immediate uploading on all projects and this is done on document manager whereby all aspects of the project from the initial design stage to the completion stage is already uploaded.

Any newcomer would be able to just invest a few hours or if they are very good in their performance rating then they should be able to understand.
That even allows access to information for auditors or any investigation team coming, if they want to go through any of the records, they can very well go and check it without disturbing the officer who is handling the project.

That takes away the possibility of any system abuse or procedural abuse expected to happen in projects or procurement.

Moving forward to our assets management.

This database captures the in depth details of buildings.

These include locations, respective levels and inventories.
Suppose the Ro Lalabalavu House needs to be entered in the system.

Each floor, each level and each equipment is already uploaded and through various service legal agreements we know that this air condition is serviced at this time and who was the technician working on this particular unit.

Moving forward to a more detailed sample of assets management whereby work orders are generated, various leases are determined, when the leases expire and so forth.
There is a sample on how the building record is captured, total floor area and then working out on actual space components.

We had an issue about letting agreements as well.

Majority of the letting agreements, we are working hand in hand with respective landlords to ensure that government offices remain very attractive as far as our rental is concerned.
That is the report that will be generated if a Ministry, Minister or any person wants to generate how many places the Ministry of Local Government is renting, similarly places the Ministry of Justice is renting and so forth, it is all on a drop-down and straightaway extracted from the system.

The next major element is the tenancy agreement.

We all know that Domain and other places have tenancy in government quarters so the upkeep of that plus the tenant information is very important.
There are certain places in some divisions whereby the ministries are changing staff without letting us know or letting the headquarters to even know.

Suppose in January another doctor was staying or a teacher was staying and then come the second term or third term around the corner, they have changed the teacher or the staff.

So basically what happens is that the utilities bills, Energy Fiji Limited and Water Authority of Fiji is unpaid and unsettled.
It becomes the burden of the next person without knowing what is the hindsight or dark side of the quarters that they have already gone to occupy, the new tenant just works in.

On the issue of notable damage to the quarters.


This module is currently addressing all these and various quarters’ reports are printed to ensure that we are on par as far as the requirements are concerned 7 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 to meet staff or tenant obligations.

The other one is grants management.

It is in terms of like Help for Homes that was initiated through the government and this actually picks up details.
Suppose if I am receiving a grant of $7,500 then my record will go into the PMWeb system.

Any auditor can just pick it up from the system as all invoices are scanned and uploaded.

The information, for example, the Department of Social Welfare forms are scanned and uploaded to respective beneficiary so they become our project name as well.
If we need to go and audit, the various teams out on the ground whether that particular person received, partially received, not received or fully received their allocations or building materials then we are able to capture it as well.
As far as the housing allowance is concerned, it is the second last slide so to speak, this captures those civil servants who are receiving housing allowance, further details and copies of their employment contracts because the policy says if you have requested a transfer then basically you are not entitled to any housing allowance.

It is only when a ministry transfers you.

We were at times let down by staff.


They were not giving us the true or correct information whether they were transferred or they requested for a transfer because our officers change over time due to promotion, migration and other private sector employment, we are now capturing everything so that we do not have to hunt for information ourselves.
Sir, with those presentations and slides, we are happy to take any questions on PMWeb or the database itself and we have a team of systems analysts who will be able to help me in responding to questions if there are any.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Mr. Shah, thank you for that comprehensive presentation about the database that you people have developed with regards to the CIU.

Just to start off, in terms of security and restriction to that web application.

What is the level of access?


Does everyone have the same level of access or there are different levels of access?

MR. M. SHAH.- Thank you, Sir.

As far as security is concerned, it was well-discussed and deliberated during the handover of the PMWeb when it went live.

It is all about access on staggering basis so a line Minister may not have the full access.
It is only up to dashboard level because they do not have time to go but desk officers of respective agencies have access to information only if it is required by them.

So suppose if tender bids are uploaded, the bidders must know that their bids are very confidential and remain confidential all throughout.

It is not for public or other competitors for that matter.

It is very well-coordinated.

It goes with password and it is well-protected.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you.

Yes, Honourable Radrodro.

HON.


A.M. RADRODRO.- Thank you, Chair.

Just out of interest in terms of the cost of that software that you just highlighted to the Committee.

Would you be able to inform the Committee about the cost of that software?

MR. M. SHAH.- Sir, it was approved through the ITC Services’ Steering Committee and the cost was FJ$350,000.

It was off the shelf purchase and the proof of concept was well done.
This is the same system that is used by Apple Incorporation, Walt Disney Company and New South Wales Transport as well.

Also, some international hospitals and universities using this.

One can Google PMWeb and then find out really the impact of it.
We in Fiji, we are proud, with Madam PS, unfortunately she is not available today due to urgent commitments, we were brave enough to settle in this database because the other bids that were coming 8 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 in were from a single person, so a person designs a database and then works as a single point of failure but this is an entity itself, the name of the company is HKA Global and PMWeb is the name they are using.
MR. CHAIRMAN.- Is PMWeb a standard database or has it been custom-made to suit our requirement?

MR. M. SHAH.- Sir, it is a standard database but various other modules that are coming together like housing allowance, quarters, letting agreement and all that were just triggering to our project itself, so it is off the shelf procurement.
We have procured it because the bids that were coming in for a normal preparation by entity would have been, the bids are quite high so to speak and the timeline taken was even longer because we required it immediately based on the 2016-2017 presentation.

We really needed to act at the earliest so that we have all information available as soon as possible.
What we went through with TC Winston and then getting the design, documentations, approvals and all that, we really did not want to go back again so we thought as we go along, we will put everything onto data management.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Yes, Honourable Radrodro.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Yes, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Shah.

Just out of interest again.

With regards to the programmes that you highlighted in your software.
The Help for Home Initiative was one of them but there were some major drawbacks in terms of that programme where people who had been given the card, they had submitted it to the respective hardware stores but the materials ordered were yet to be delivered.

Is that also reflected in the software that you highlighted?

There are many instances especially those in the maritime areas and the highlands.

MR. M. SHAH.- Thank you, Sir.

We are aware of these instances and beneficiaries are coming to the CIU.
A group of complaints is being handled by the Office of the Prime Minister and some are directly coming to us.

We are working hand in hand with the respective beneficiaries.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Are you meeting the people that had gone through this process where they were given the cards but did not receive the materials?

Are you making them aware that this is the process that you have so that they can come to the respective agencies to lodge their complaints?

MR. M. SHAH.- Member, not for now.


We are having onsite awareness as well because rightfully they first write to the Permanent Secretary.

Once they come to us, we assess whether the building materials have been delivered or not.

Based on the system rectification, the source document that is provided, we move forward calling the person and then further on asking for details.
We have a list of those beneficiaries whose building materials are yet to be delivered or were partially delivered so we are working with our other sections like budget and planning to ensure that we receive rightful directive from our management.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, another supplementary question in terms of the roles of the CIU and the FPO.

There are two different roles.


In terms of the CIU, you mentioned about the projects that are listed there but every year we see a delay in the implementation of the projects.

How is that 9 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 software that you highlighted helping in the implementation of these projects against the delays noted year in, year out?

How do you interlink with other ministries and departments regarding their projects?
Do they inform the CIU?

MR. M. SHAH.- Thank you, Sir.

Based on the various lessons learnt as far as how projects were administered before, the Ministry of Economy now holds regular monthly meetings with relevant stakeholders such as steering committees, respective permanent secretaries or a senior level representative handling the project and funds.

The monthly monitoring is continuously going on so that the agencies are regularly posted as far as what is the development of it.
So suppose for one project if the land is not fully available for construction and so forth, it is just going to show normal delays, so what the system allows is just that if we are going to press overall project status, it is going to auto reflect the colour codes as well.

If projects are delayed, it would be red and if it is red then we investigate why there is a delay.

HON.
HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Could you assure the Committee that all the projects budgeted for on an annual basis, as listed under respective ministries and departments, say in SEG 8 or SEG 9, they are all recorded in your system?

Is it only partial?

All those that are listed in each fiscal year.

MR. M. SHAH.- Sir, we start from Head 1 to Head 50, all the projects are listed.

All the projects are already on the PMWeb and respective details are already there, the rightful information that is available for now.
Continuously as the project is developing whether it is a design stage, whether it is a construction stage or whether it is a conclusion stage or commissioning stage, we are regularly updating the system.

For instance, there is a delay in design so that activity is only delay so if it is not constructed, the construction has not occurred, the construction has not commenced so basically the system will generate it is a delay and then we have to report back to the respective ministries.

HON.
HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Who will be responsible for the delay?

MR. M. SHAH.- Sir, we do not hold any projects with us.

It is not the Ministry of Economy.

Sometimes what happens is that the projects that are allocated to ministries in the budget book, say for instance if you talk about Lodoni Health Centre or Korovou Subdivisional Hospital.

We submitted the concept design proposals back to the ministry some months ago.
We have already appointed the lead consultant, the consultant is working and the design has been given.

The respective medical team came, presented it, discussed it and elaborated it further.

We have given it back to the ministry concerned.

Now, in order for us to proceed to the next stage which is develop stage, we need a written confirmation from the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Health and Medical Services to move forward.
This is something that we intend to improve by having regular project steering committee meetings.

Also, on the other hand when we call for the tender evaluation meeting with the FPO then the respective desk officers from the respective agencies or mandatory agencies are not available.

The availability of the officers plus the response, not receiving it on time is actually delaying the project, so we keep reminding them.
The system has a close off period so to speak, that yes the response should have been submitted within 14 days and this is the closing date.

If we are not updating the system and there is no response from the respective agency, the PMWeb will generate an email straightaway to the person who is handling the project that this item is running late and another reminder will have to go.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you.

Honourable Nand, please.


10 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 HON.

J.N.

NAND.- Thank you, Chair, through you.

Does the system capture the life cycle of projects from the initial stage to the establishment until the last phase?

MR. M. SHAH.- Certainly, Sir.

It captures the entire (cycle).

I believe slide three had the plan and commitment level so it has all records.

Sorry, Sir.

The entire life cycle, yes.


MR. CHAIRMAN.- Mr. Shah, you actually mentioned about the projects by the ministries.

In a nutshell, are you saying that the project belongs to the respective ministries while technical expertise and support are provided by the CIU.

MR. M. SHAH.- Certainly, Sir.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Yes, Honourable Ratu Naiqama Lalabalavu.

HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- Thank you, Honourable Chair, through you.

Thank you, Mr. Shah and FPO for all that you have provided for us.
My question is kind of centred solely on the element of time.

It is so good to hear the processes that you are setting in place to overcome what was never there before, both in CIU and FPO but it is the element of time.

The FPO, you have got timelines and deadlines being set.

What sort of a focus do you now have in that regard on this element of time to actually finish because that is where the Government is going to be judged all the time?

How best and how quick can we finish this?


On top of that the other question that I would like to raise is on the FPO.

The Procurement Regulations have been there since 2010.

All we are reading and your reply FPO is that the review is still ongoing.

When are you going to get yourself completed on the actual regulations?

It is because you were trying to align it to the 2013 Constitution and it is still ongoing.
Well this one here has the element of time, still a question that is being raised by the people especially with wasted rehabilitation work, some are still to be completed, like you have just said some are still halfway, some have not even started.

Those are the two questions that I am raising.

Thank you, Honourable Chair.

MR. S. VERAMU.- Thank you, Sir.

In terms of the new regulations, we are currently in the draft stages.
The one thing we need to understand, I guess with the procurement regulations is that it is under the Financial Management Act 2004 and that is being reviewed too.

It is being run concurrently so while we are working on the procurement regulations, the Financial Management Act 2004 is also being looked at to modernise the way we run Government finances.

The target was mid-2020 to get all these finalised.

HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- 10 years: MR. S. VERAMU.- I beg your pardon, Sir.

HON.

RATU N.T.
HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- Will it take 10 years?

MR. S. VERAMU.- No, 2020.

This year, by mid-year.

HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- From 2010 to 2020.

MR. S. VERAMU.- Yes.

We have been working on it since last year.

In terms of procurement, things changed a lot from 2010 and so that is something we had to look into while looking at the 11 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 regulations.

How does it fit into the way Government runs?


As we all know sometimes Government runs a very transactional kind of procurement.

The strategic thinking is not there so that is something we are trying to inbuilt into the procurement regulations where we evolve into strategic procurement rather than stay with the transactional procurement that is currently in place.

Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you for that explanation.

Are there any further questions?

Yes, Honourable Prakash.

HON.


V. PRAKASH.- Chair, though you.

Thank you very much for the explanation that we have received and I think it is also important to acknowledge the large amount of capital development that has taken place after TC Winston especially in the education sector.

The schools that were repaired, they are of a very high standard.

We have seen those schools that were damaged and the new buildings that have come are of a very excellent standard.

Chair, through you.
Chair, through you.

I would like to ask questions to FPO about absence of compliance function.

Has the Procurement Centre of Excellence been established?

Also if it has assumed the functions of compliance and assessment of the FPO.

MR. S. VERAMU.- Thank you, Sir.

The Procurement Centre of Excellence is now in operation.

We have seven staff in the team and really what the team does is that they have taken the role of the policy and the compliance functions.
What is different from the previous compliance team?

The previous compliance team had an audit focus where they had special audits and procurement audits.

We have changed that focus into a more compliance management role in a sense that we are now part of every evaluation.

We are there to look at compliance so even before it goes to the Government Tender Board (GTB) we make sure that compliance is there.
After the evaluation team has approved, we have one of our staff that in there to provide advice on compliance and when it comes to the FPO there are five lines of checks that happens before it goes to the Government Tender Board, really because we are using public money and we need to make sure that we comply with the regulations and the guidelines that are there.
To answer your question Sir, the compliance function is still there at FPO but the only thing that we do not do now is the audit function which has been passed to independent audit organisations and Office of the Auditor-General (OAG).

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- A supplementary question.

Is that compliance function different from the internal audit department?

MR. S. VERAMU.- Yes, Sir.

It is different.

This compliance function looks at policy reviews, checks and training.
It is more like a proactive approach to compliance making sure that the staff and civil servants comply.

They have their compliance programme to procurement rather than coming later on when the compliance has failed and trying to audit later on.

It is more a proactive approach.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just another supplementary question in terms of capacity of the Procurement Centre of Excellence that you have now created.

Does it have the necessary capacity?

What capacity do they have?


Similarly for the CIU, as per the audit findings there is a lack of capacity within the CIU.

Could you inform the Committee whether you do have the necessary technical capacity 12 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 to conduct what you are supposed to be doing?

How do you mitigate the shortfalls in your technical capacity?

MR. M. SHAH.- Thank you, Sir.

Yes, we have the technical competency in-house.


We have qualified officers and managers who are manning the projects.

They have appropriate qualifications as well like Mr. Seru Tagicakibau, he is a graduate architect.

We have a quantity surveyor in-house.

We have technical officers who have done diploma in architecture as well and we have a series of staff who have done the project management courses.
They have already done their programmes and then on top of it, we are continuously sending and investing in our people.

We understand that the entire construction industry is suffering with this loss of human resources.

In fact globally it is happening so we are not exceptional that we should be able to get away with this problem.
There are problems, there are situations whereby an external party’s requests, thoughts or views are obtained and majority of the CIU projects are engaged with or executed through the respective professionals, lead consultants, architects, project managers and structural engineers, who carry professional indemnity rather than a civil servant carrying a professional indemnity.
In that if there is any problem with the design, if there is any failure and so forth, we can always go to respective consultants and then they will be answerable to it.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, through you.

With regards to resources of other ministries and departments.

Do you consult or utilise those other resources especially say for Public Works Department (PWD), the other technical resources that they have there?

Do you still utilise them or you no longer consider them in your work process?
MR. M. SHAH.- The fact is that they do come to us rather than us going to them.

If there is any project, we are doing two projects for them as well.

We are then moving forward as far as the accountability of decisions.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- … because you said they do come to you instead of you going to them.

What is the logic?

MR. M. SHAH.- Sorry, Chair.


The issue is that should they have any projects rather than them designing the entire works, they are currently coming to us to administer the projects for them.

We administer the projects for them.

Agencies do go directly to them as well.

For instance like the reason why, on time bound, why TC Winston rehabilitation was delayed for schools.
The Ministry for Education forwarded a set of 40 schools to the Ministry of Infrastructure and Transport (MOIT) and somehow or other the resources were not there, they were unable to execute it for one and a half years then after so long it was handed over to CIU.

These are the actual schools that are on delay right now but the ones earlier, 150 schools that were forwarded to us, we have wrapped up those and commissioning certificates are already done.
The ones that are pending, construction is underway so with regards to ministries going directly to MOIT, yes they can do so but the reason why CIU is here, we will talk about CIU only is because this is the internal division of the Ministry of Economy.

The Ministry of Economy wants to know everything about all the projects so that is the reason why formation of CIU was done.

We have the internal technical competency as well to ensure that this is not considered lightly.
MR. CHAIRMAN.- Would you actually say that just like an internal audit team in the Ministry of Economy, the CIU is also an internal audit team when it comes to project and project management with regards to other ministries?

Do you have an internal audit team within the CIU itself?
13 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 MR. M. SHAH.- Sir, the CIU does not have any internal audit on its own and our internal audit, what he was mentioning is, the ministry internal audit that does the audit for the entire government.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- I request for an update regarding the recommendations by the OAG whether you agree, disagree or it is work in progress.

OAG, the six recommendations that you have for FPO in your report.
OAG REP.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

I think the first recommendation there is that the FPO should ensure that its compliance assessment function was carried out as per required.

Our position on it, given the fact that the Procurement Regulations 2010 is currently in effect so our view is that the compliance assessment that needs to be carried out should be carried out.

Through our enquiry during the audit we were told that the Ministry of Economy’s internal auditors would be doing that.
However, we have just confirmed that they did not pursue any compliance assessment as far as procurement is concerned.

But, the Head of Procurement has explained that with the establishment of the centre of excellence, the focus is shifting from an audit perspective to a more compliance nature where they have looked at whether the actual procurement process is followed or not.

HON.
HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- In that regard for the FPO, the OAG highlighted inconsistency in the timing for review of tenders and that inconsistency has been continuous since the date from construction stage right up to whatever stage that they created here.

The audit issue is on the duration of time taken to review all these processes.

That is the highlight from the OAG.

Has there been any improvement in terms of this particular review of the tender process?
MR. S. VERAMU.- Sir, in terms of the tender process, we have been working very hard on removing the administrative waste.

That is something we have been working on - supplying checklists and standard templates for the civil servants to use.

In some cases, we used to do three reports and we have merged it into one just to cut down the administrative time.
One thing that we need to develop is the planning capability within the ministries and that is something if the planning is not done properly then the evaluation will not be done properly.

In my opinion it is a market issue where we have a lack of knowledge on that in terms of risk management, planning, methodologies, how do you go to the market and research the market.

These are things that sometimes when it is not done properly, when it comes to evaluation, they start all over again.
The process starts to come to evaluation and that delays your evaluation further, so that is one improvement.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- (Inaudible) MR. S. VERAMU.- Sorry, Sir.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- … the evaluation process.

MR. S. VERAMU.- Yes and that is something we are looking into for the new regulations, to cover for those instances.

One thing that the regulations have is that all projects are given a timeline whether you are buying a generator or building a hospital, it is given same timelines.
That is something we are looking at to vary because different projects will have a different timeline.

Unfortunately for us it is very rigid, the timeline that is given currently and that is what we are intending to change.

14 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Is that the same for its other audit issues regarding the preparation of Government Tender Board paper submission highlighted by the OAG, Chair?
The standard timeline was five days or something.

MR. S. VERAMU.- Yes, those are same issues.

One of the things that we are looking at there is, one is the administrative waste so one of the things that really delays going to Government Tender Board is the amount of paperwork and reports that are prepared.

That is something we worked hard on to remove.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Is that explanation sufficient enough to justify the recommendation or remove, OAG?
AUDIT REP.- Honourable Chair, I think we will have to perhaps go back and carry out a follow- up audit just to see whether the explanation which the Ministry is giving, you know, how effective that is currently subsequent to our audit finding.

The other thing that I would like to also mention is the preparation of annual procurement plans.

If you look at Page 10, there has been a significant decline as far as the preparation of the plan is concerned.
We believe that when agencies prepare their procurement plans for the fiscal year, that also gives them more opportunity to deliver on time.

That is another contributing factor as far as the delay is concerned.

We are not entirely saying that the fault or the delay is always from the FPO side as far as delivery is concerned.

We also understand that the initial planning starts from the individual agencies.
That is where the annual procurement plan comes in, so we have done our five-year analysis and we see from 2014 onwards, there is a significant decline in the preparation of the annual plans.

I think as far as the current procurement regulation is concerned this is one of the requirements where the ministries need to develop their annual procurement plan, Honourable Chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you, we do take note of that.

Any final question by Honourable Members.


If not then any final comments from the Ministry of Economy.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just out of interest.

The audit highlighted the need to resource the respective departments in the CIU.

Titles of some posts have been highlighted here.

Could you just inform the Committee whether they have been filled?

What is the status at the moment?

MR. M. SHAH.- Thank you, Chair.

For CIU, we are still in the process of doing it.

We do advertise regularly.


We approach the market for staff to come in and join us.

As far as the recent recruitments are concerned, we were able to attract some good people around in the market and we have quite a good number.

The reason being that we do not want ourselves to be over and above or go overboard.

We want the database to do more work for us than the actual human resources.

It is not that we are saying the introduction or implementation of databases take away employment of people.
It is just that we need to ensure that we are able to manage within rather than having a broadened staff establishment and the unit outcome or deliverables are not achieved.

That is the reason we are very particular about staff recruitment.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- There are 23 positions vacant within the CIU.

MR. M. SHAH.- Chair, at that point in time when the audit happened it was 23 positions.
Since the CIU is a newly-formed division, from 2016 onwards, we feel that at some point in time if required and we are working with our head of administration and management to go away with those positions 15 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 and depending on the need then we will employ rather than employing a person and not maximising that person in terms of their performance.

HON.
HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Do you really need all these positions that are here?

Where did you get these positions from OAG?

These titles, it has about 23.

Manager projects about two, Manager finance.

AUDIT REP.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

I think we got this from the approved establishment for CIU and FPO respectively.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you.

With these words I would request Honourable Nand if he could actually thank the submittees who are present here this afternoon before the Committee.

HON.

J.N.
HON.

J.N.

NAND.- Thank you very much, Honourable Chair.

To the team from the Ministry of Economy, thank you very much for the very lively presentation.

We have gathered a lot of information regarding the new web system.

I strongly believe it is a game-changer and the sole purpose is to modernise our nation.

Thank you very much for your presentation.

Also thanking our Honourable Members, the team from OAG and the reporter from Hansard Unit.

We wish you all the best for future endeavours.

Thank you.
Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN.- Thank you.

I shall now close the meeting.

There will be a 15-minute break and we will resume after that.
The Committee adjourned at 3:44 p.m. 16 | Verbatim Report – Performance Audit of FPO and CIU Ministry of Economy Monday, 9th March, 2020 [VERBATIM REPORT] STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS AUDITOR-GENERAL’S REPORT Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare ENTITY: Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation VENUE: Big Committee Room (East Wing) DATE: Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 VERBATIM NOTES OF THE MEETING OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS HELD IN THE BIG COMMITTEE ROOM (EAST WING), PARLIAMENT PRECINCTS, GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS ON TUESDAY, 10TH MARCH, 2020 AT 1.10 P.M. Interviewee: Ministry of Women, Children and Poverty Alleviation In Attendance: 1.
Ms. Jennifer Poole – Permanent Secretary 2.

Mr. Rupeni Fatiaki – Director Social Welfare 3.

Ms. Raijieli Erasito – Assistant Director Family Services 4.

Ms. Venina Duvuduvukula – Acting Principal Accounts Officer 5.

Ms. Rozia Bi – Senior System Analyst Office of the Auditor-General 1.

2.

3.

Mr. Abele Saunivalu – Director Audit Mr. Mohammed Firoz – Audit Manager Mr. Lee Filipe – Auditor DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Good afternoon everyone.
We welcome you all to our Committee inquiry into the Performance Audit Report on the Social Welfare Scheme.

At this juncture I would like to thank our Chairman, Honourable Maharaj for giving me this opportunity.

I welcome the Honourable Members and also members of the public who will be watching later.

There will be delayed coverage of this on television.

I also take this opportunity to welcome the Ministry of Women, Children and Poverty Alleviation.
Also, auditors from Office of the Auditor-General (OAG).

This special Committee inquiry is on the Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Scheme that was established by resolution of Parliament when it was referred to the Committee on Friday, November 22nd, 2019.

It is a part of the Committee’s responsibility to gather information from the relevant stakeholders regarding the findings in the audit report.
The purpose of this inquiry is to; (1) Allow witness to present and produce relevant documents and information in line with the findings in the audit report; (2) Allow the Committee to ask specific questions related to the Ministry’s functions as far as this audit report is concerned; (3) Allow the witnesses to respond to the Committee’s questions; and (4) To provide important information that will assist the Committee in its formulation of its report to Parliament particularly on our findings with recommendations that will be debated on.
Please be advised that this meeting is open to public and media.

There will be delayed coverage aired on the Parliament channel through the Walesi platform.

Therefore, any sensitive 2 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 information concerning this inquiry that cannot be disclosed in public, this can be provided to the Committee either in private or in writing.
At the outset, I wish to remind Honourable Members and witnesses that all questions to be asked has to be addressed through the Chair.

This is a parliamentary inquiry and all information gathered are under the Parliamentary Powers and Privileges Act.

With those words I wish to introduce the Members of the Committee.

(Introduction of the Honourable Members by the Deputy Chairperson) Now I request the OAG staff to introduce themselves.
(Introduction of OAG staff by the Director Audit) DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you.

Just to add on, the audit report focused on the assessment done on the effectiveness of the Ministry of Women, Children and Poverty Alleviation in complying with the Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) for processing applications under the Social Welfare Scheme for the period August 2017 to July 2018.
The Department of Social Welfare administers Fiji’s recently reformed programmes which include the Social Pension Scheme (SPS), Poverty Benefit Scheme (PBS), Care and Protection Allowance (C&P) and the Food Voucher Programme for rural pregnant mothers, that is also commended by the In managing these programmes, the Department of Social Welfare is responsible for ensuring assistance for those in need, eliminating corruption and fraud in the system.
The audit report by the OAG covers all processes from application, verification, approval and notification to payments of social welfare scheme allowance.

In addition, the audit conducted was based on performance and records provided by the Department of Social Welfare during the period of audit.
It was noted that the auditors examined a total of 250 recipient case files including 100 on SPS, 50 on PBS, 50 on C&P and 50 on the Food Voucher Programme relating to pregnant mothers in rural areas for which payments amounting to $85,246,927 were made in that period.

The findings of that audit report will be discussed in this session.

For the information of all stakeholders, may I request the Ministry staff to introduce themselves and then you can start your presentation.

Thank you.
Thank you.

(Introduction of the Ministry of Women, Children and Poverty Alleviation staff by the Permanent Secretary) MS. J. POOLE.- Thank you very much for this opportunity to respond to the questions today and for the work that has gone in this by the OAG.

I will be asking the Director of Social Welfare to respond directly to some of the questions.

Thank you, Sir.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.


Before we begin, while you are doing your presentation the Honourable Members can interject from time to time.

They are expected to ask questions and you are expected to give your response.

Thank you.

You may begin.


MR. R. FATIAKI.- The Honourable Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee, it is an honour for us to be here to present to the Honourable Committee on the response to the 3 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 questions that were raised.

Therefore, my presentation will be in direct response to the questions that were sent to the Ministry.
Question 8.1 - The lack of verification from the Fiji National Provident Fund (FNPF).

What is the update on the verification of the SPS applicants with FNPF?

For the Committee’s information, there was an agreement between the Ministry and FNPF.

It was highlighted earlier in one of the audits.

The agreement expired at the end of last year and at the moment, consultations are underway between the Ministry and FNPF for the re-engagement of this.
However, during that time period when we had the agreement with the FNPF, this is for sharing of information and we had sent the list to the FNPF.

Unfortunately, the list that was sent, did not match, meaning that majority of our SPS applicants had never worked whole of their lives.

It is just now that we are receiving applications from old people who had at some time worked and are retired.

When we sent the first list to FNPF, it came back to us, there was no match and there were a couple of reasons.
As I mentioned some of them had never worked in their lives so they had never appeared in the books of the FNPF.

Another reason was that some of the names sent, especially of women, these women did not use their maiden names, instead they used their married names, so when we tried to match, it did not match.

A third reason involves birth certificates.


You will notice that there was a time when birth certificates had changed and so old recipients were using old birth certificates which were blue in colour.

I think I can recall I had one but it has now changed.

The primary key for social protection programmes is the birth certificate number.

That is the primary key and so these were the reasons that the list came back to us and did not match.
In order to address that we asked applicants during interviews whether they worked before.

If they said yes then we would ask them to get a letter from the FNPF to validate that they have already taken their lump sum or no amount left in the account.

Only then we can process their applications.

That is how we have tried to address the issue in trying to match details of our recipients with the FNPF.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just a question to the Director.
This is a process that was formalised by the Ministry itself in terms of verification with the FNPF membership.

I note all the explanations you highlighted.

Can you assure the Committee that this issue highlighted by the OAG is resolved?

What is the status now?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Honourable Chair, yes we have addressed this issue and that is about going to meet with the FNPF.

We agreed to send them the list but when we sent the list, it came back and there was no match.
As I mentioned, in that case, in order to continue to have validation, when they come to apply, we request them to provide a letter from the FNPF to validate that they are not receiving any amount or they have withdrawn the whole amount.

4 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 At the moment, our database, we do not have a system that can match.
I mean that is one of the ideals that we would want and I can see the questions that we have but at the moment we do not have such a system and even with the office for Births, Deaths & Marriages (BDM), we are not able to connect with BDM.

This is to do with deaths.

Again, it is mentioned in the questions that were highlighted.

We have consulted and worked with BDM but we still have challenges because of the connectivity and accessibility to these databases.
That is the only way that we are able to validate applicants, if they are receiving FNPF or not.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Was the verification process to substantiate whether the recipients were also receiving FNPF pension?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Yes.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- What about those FNPF members not on pension?

Are they eligible for SPS?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- The SPS is for those who are 65 years old and above where they have no sources of income.
They are not recipients of any superannuation which is inclusive of FNPF, Fiji Ex-Servicemen Fund and any other source of income.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Do you have any timeline to address the verification process issues so that it does not keep appearing in the audit reports?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- I think what we are doing to address this, our team will have a system linked to the FNPF.

That is something we have to discuss with the FNPF.
At the moment because we do not have a system, the only way we can verify is through a letter from FNPF to validate whether they are receiving pension or not.

HON.

A.A. MAHARAJ.- Deputy Chair, through you.

Will the FNPF issue a letter if somebody is unemployed?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Honourable Chair, of course not.

This is where in our assessment during the interviews when they come to apply we ask them questions.

Have you worked before?

Have you received the FNPF?


If they say no then we do not ask for validation letter.

But if they say yes then that is when we ask them to provide a letter from the FNPF to validate whether they received, they have money there or they have withdrawn the whole amount.

HON.

A.A. MAHARAJ.- Chair, through you.

When do you require this letter to be provided to the Ministry, at what stage?

Is it when they come and fill the application form?
If you could highlight the process so that we know when this letter is required by the Ministry.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- This letter is required straight after the applicants apply.

Those are the things we ask.

If they say yes then we ask them to provide a letter from FNPF.

When they provide a letter from the FNPF that is when we proceed with the application.

Those are some of relevant documents that we need in order to process or proceed with an application.

HON.

A.A. MAHARAJ.- Another follow-up question.


You mentioned 65 or 65 years and above.

Is the 65 covered under SPS?

5 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 MR. R. FATIAKI.- Honourable Chair, 65 years and above.

HON.

A.A. MAHARAJ.- So, if I am 65 then I am entitled to it or when I turn 66 then I am entitled to it.
MR. R. FATIAKI.- When you turn 65, an applicant is eligible to apply for the SPS but as I mentioned earlier, provided that they do not have any source of income and they are not recipients of any other superannuation.

HON.

A.A. MAHARAJ.- If, for example, I am a farmer and I apply for SPS.

I do not receive pension, I never paid FNPF contributions and I was a farmer all my life.

Am I covered under SPS?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Not at the moment.


As long as there is a source of income, they are excluded from the SPS.

HON.

A.A. MAHARAJ.- PS, if you could highlight that it is actually the policy because it seems to be contradicting to our common understanding as the baseline is, if anybody is not getting FNPF, they are entitled to SPS provided they have not withdrawn a lump sum at the age of retirement.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Allow me to explain that.


At the moment we are working on the baseline and yes those issues have been raised with us.

The issue of, what about if the farmers are receiving say $60 per month.

Now we are currently working on that.

It is not only with the farmers.

It is also with those that are maybe earning $50 per month for example.

Now, we are looking at how we cannot address this issue because it is not just the farmers that have come in.
There are other issues that have come in and so, we are looking at it to see what would be the baseline because at the moment farmers form a big category.

This is because there are some farmers who are receiving less and some are receiving more.

We have consulted with the Sugar Cane Growers Council to provide us with that information.
We are doing consultation, we are going to go back, hopefully with the concept paper and then later a cabinet paper to look at this issue because we will have to get a baseline.

It is not going to be open because there are different categories.

For example, if a farmer is earning more then we will go again, look at what is the poverty line, rural and urban.
Those are things that we need to consider rather than opening it for every old person, unless the Government decides to change and use it as a universal pension but at the moment that is the criteria that we are using.

As I have mentioned, we are looking at seeing how we can accommodate these new issues that are coming up.

To explain further, this is how the SPS targets came about.
In 2011 with the help of the World Bank, we reviewed family assistance which at that moment included single parents, poor households, elderly and disabled.

The elderly was also part of that family assistance.
For example, if family assistance was given to a family where the son is the breadwinner or the head of the household inclusive of the old man or the old woman in that household and so this amount that was given under the Family Assistance Scheme, we had complaints coming from the old people saying yes, we are receiving but when we ask for assistance, we are not given that assistance.
With the recommendation of the World Bank to look at how the Government could provide assistance especially for these old people, who are dependant, who have never 6 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 worked in their lives, who are depending on the children and because of their struggles or financial issues that they are going through, to consider them and that is how the SPS had come about, to address these elderlies who are staying most probably in their villages, never worked in their lives so at least they could have some kind of funding to help them pay for their own basic needs.
For example, before the bus fare assistance initiative for pensioners came in, if the elderlies wanted to go and visit their children, they could not because they did not have any funds for travel or to buy whatever they wanted.

That was how the SPS came in and that was the category that we used.

But now, yes, cases are coming across to us.

There are old people who say yes I have retired, I have taken my lump sum and do I qualify for this.
People are also coming in and saying yes, I am a farmer, I am earning this much, do I qualify for that.

As I have mentioned earlier we are re-looking the criteria to see how we can accommodate this but again, we will have to do our research to ensure that if this is going to be open, there is going to be a ceiling where who is going to come in and who cannot in, otherwise it is going to be open for everybody to come in.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Yes, Honourable Prakash.

HON.
HON.

V. PRAKASH.- Deputy Chair, through you.

The SPS for 65 years and above has been discussed at length and that is why it has come.

There is a lot of confusion for people of that age to run here and there to get documentation.

The Department of Social Welfare should have a criteria, a list which can clarify the issues that you are highlighting.

There is a difference between urban and rural pensioners.
Pensioners in urban centres would have to spend more at their retirement age than those that are in the rural areas and when their pensions get cancelled, they will come to people like us to try and justify.

While they have contributed their healthy life to nation-building, they have to pay other expenses which is not paid in the rural areas, we find that people at that age still have to struggle.

When will the criteria be set?


That is my question because people who feel that they need to be supported, they are struggling.

If a person has money, I am sure very few would try to cheat the system.

What is happening currently is that recipients’ assistance are being cancelled without any clear-cut indication.

They still need justifications.

Those justifications mean what are the criteria that you have got so that they can qualify.

It is important because that is their age.


If they need that money to support them, to have medical and other assistance that they need, I do not think we need to see that they run around from office to office.

There should be special criteria there so that those who deserve it, they should get it.

Thank you, Chair.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you, Honourable Prakash.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Honourable Chair, yes.


As I have mentioned, at the moment we are working on the criteria that is already there but as I said, we are also doing consultations and the concept paper will be sent, hopefully it will go to the Cabinet.

At the moment any changes cannot be done by us.

Any changes to the criteria will have to follow the process and that is when a decision will be made.
7 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

Yes, Honourable Maharaj.

HON.

A.A. MAHARAJ.- Chair, through you.

You mentioned that you are developing new criteria.

It means you have existing criteria.

Can that be submitted to the Committee for us to have a look at it?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Yes.

We have got the Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) here.

HON.
HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Can we just get a clarification from the Director regarding the current recipients, Chair?

There are over 38,000 SPS recipients as highlighted in your annual report.

What will happen to these existing recipients whilst you are going through this process of verification, trying to sort out the criteria?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- As of today, there are about 45,000 recipients.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- It has gone up compared to what is in your latest annual report here.
MR. R. FATIAKI.- Yes, the SPS.

The recertification that we are doing, we are not stopping them.

In fact what we are doing with their life certificate is something similar to the ex-servicemen assistance process where recipients of all the social protection programmes will require to update the information on the form that is going to be distributed and they come with that.

That has been done.
That has been done.

The reason why we are doing the recertification is that we have cases where they have applied in the past years and so they have moved on.

Either they have moved from their original location in their initial application, for example if they have been staying in Suva, they may have gone back to the islands or villages but in our books they are still registered as in Suva.
Secondly, some of them have passed on and so the objective of the recertification programme is for them to update their information.

We are not stopping any allowance.

We are just asking them to provide their updated information and we are giving them that grace period until July.

Hopefully by July we should be able to have all the forms back.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Is this recertification done on an annual basis or six- monthly basis?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- This is the first time we are doing it.
This exercise, we are doing it on 12 months.

Hopefully once we complete this, we will be able to look at whether we will continue to do it annually or biannually.

It will all depend on the outcome of this first exercise that we are doing now.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just a supplementary question.

This recertification process, you said the number has now increased from 38,000 as in your Annual Report 2017- 2018 to now 45,000.
Would you be able to probably advise the Committee about the percentage of recipients in rural and urban areas?
In the process of recertification, as highlighted previously, those that live in rural areas, if they do come for recertification, that is a huge cost involved in terms of transportation, 8 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 accommodation and all other sundries involved in coming down to your office.
Can you inform the Committee on the process of recertification for rural and urban recipients whether you go out or just wait for them to come to your office on a periodic cycle that you mentioned?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

Honourable Chair, this recertification exercise we have looked at those issues and so with the maritime islands, they are paid by monthly vouchers.

What we have done is we have sent the forms together with their vouchers.
The forms are translated into the three main languages.

Once they receive those forms, they can fill it and send it back through the post office.

We have started receiving forms through post office.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Do you get your officers in the respective regions to conduct the recertification process?
MR. R. FATIAKI.- No, on the same note, we have our officers going to the communities and conducting awareness, at the same time highlighting the recertification exercise likewise taking the forms for them to be filled.

Again we have used media platforms and for the last couple of weeks, I have been in the media highlighting the exercise and duration of it.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much, Director.

For the purpose of this hearing, I have slightly changed the format of our deliberation.
The Honourable Members will ask the question first, taking turns or as per my directions and then you are expected to give a response.

We will begin from Honourable Lalabalavu.

HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- Through you, Deputy Chair.

Thank you, PS and your Director as well.

Would you be able to clarify your cut-off age?

You have stated it is 65 and in your delivery, Director, you also indicated that some of the recipients never worked.
Could you guide the Committee as to what sort of percentage are you talking about here?

65 and above.

Why 65 when the Government has determined that the retirement age is 55?

On top of that you have another table in front here which is on bus fare subsidy where old age is determined at 60 and above.

We have 65, 60 and the Government has determined the retirement age is 55.

What is the percentage of that population or recipients as you have stated that has never worked.
How much of that is still out there or how many of them are still out there?

That, it will take them another 10 years before they are paid anything if you go by the 65 that you are working on now.

Thank you.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

The SPS started with 70 and that was in 2013.

Then in 2015, the age came down to 68 and in 2017, it came down to 65.

That was determined by the Government.

That is how we had worked.


But for your question on the percentage, the figures that we have at the moment, I will not be able to give exact numbers on the 65 years and above, from our research on the criteria, we have discovered that there are about 54,000 people (if I am correct) at the age of 65 and above.

We have 45,000 on SPS now.

It means there is only a difference of a couple of thousands for us to cover the whole age of 65.
On the difference between ages, 65 for SPS and then the bus fare subsidy, that was something determined by the Government.

9 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 HON.

RATU N.T.

LALABALAVU.- Through you, Deputy Chair.

A supplementary question on that.

As in charge of social welfare, the target is to look after the poor and needy.
Do you think there is a need to inform the Government again on this discrepancy that we have in the age limits?

From 55, the retirement age that you indicated just a while ago, this is the Government’s decision, coming down to 65 yet you have another one there on bus fare which is 60.

You were saying.

But, you know, the important thing here, through you Deputy Chair, is for a single life that is poor and in need, when we miss out on that then that is a hell of a number.

Even if it is one.
Even if it is one.

Here we have designed a system that is going to be excluding a couple of thousands if I am correct going by the numbers that you have indicated.

What is the position we are going to take?

Are we still going to be waiting for the Government to inform us or you, being in charge for the operation, would be informing the Government that there is a need for clean-up on the age discrepancies whether it is bus fare, SPS, 65 and then 55 on the retirement age.

Thank you.
Thank you.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Yes, you may respond.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

The issue of ages, as managers what we are doing now is developing those policies.

We will develop the policies and we will submit our findings to the Government, stating we are looking at the criteria for those cases that were highlighted.

For example, the farmers.

Also, we are looking at the retirement age.


For example, during our discussion with the FNPF, we were talking about how many old people were receiving pensions, below a certain amount per month, so these are the kinds of factors, evidence that we will have to table when we submit those policies to the Cabinet for decision- making.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

Honourable Radrodro, your question.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Thank you, Chair.

Just a follow-on question regarding the SPS.


Currently, you are giving $100 a month.

Will you be looking at reviewing that in the future to mitigate factors such high cost of living?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

Yes, those are some of the things that we will look at.

There is a ceiling there for all these assistance.

It has been determined by the Government.


We are currently working on those ceilings but like you have mentioned, we will be doing policies in our work, in our experience with cases that have come up to us.

These are some of the factors that we will provide and submit for policy changes.

Looking at the cost of living, the SPS started with $30, it moved to $50 and then in 2017, it moved to $100.
Hopefully, as we continue to encounter issues highlighted by recipients and members of the public, these are some of the things that we can use and table for policy change.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

Honourable Prakash, your question.

HON.

V. PRAKASH.- Thank you, Deputy Chair, through you.

This is regarding delays in processing of applications.

Question 8.3 - What action has been taken by the Ministry to ensure that there is timely processing of applications?
Some have to wait for six months, we 10 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 have come across that and some have not received any information for quite some time when they applied.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Yes, you may respond.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

Yes, I admit we had cases that were delayed.


For our processes, we can complete a case within seven days provided all documents are in order.

However, there are reasons too.

Sometimes cases are delayed, I make no excuse for it, sometimes documents that we require are not provided on time.

For example, the C&P allowance where documents that we require include a letter from the school, birth certificate and some other documents for the children.
We come across cases where children have never been registered.

I come across cases where letters from schools are not provided and so, that again, is one of the reasons for delays.

Our officers’ deal with documents everyday, sometimes they misplace, they lose those documents and that is a reason for delays.

For example, the Poverty Benefit Scheme (PBS).

This requires home visit assessment and sometimes it takes time for our officers to conduct those home visits.
For your information, my officers are not just dealing with social protection programmes.

They have a legislative responsibilities which are under the Juvenile Act and the Child Welfare Act.

I only have 111 officers in the field and you can imagine the number that I have mentioned.

Just social protection is 80,000 plus recipients.


My officers are required to do generic social work which means if a sex abuse is reported to us, you will have to put all the other work down and attend to those cases and so these are the reasons why such delays happen.

Also, we are responsible for the aging population.

We have been given that mandate now to look after the State homes.

If there is a case of abuse on any elderly, it is reported to us and we will have to attend those cases.
I make no excuse because I am just highlighting the fact to this Committee as those are some of the challenges.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

Is there a supplementary question?

HON.

A.A. MAHARAJ.- Chair, through you.

You mentioned officers losing documents.

As far as the Committee is concerned that should not be the case.

It is totally not acceptable by the Committee that documents should go missing and it is one of the reasons that you are actually giving for delays in the process.
What has the Ministry done with regards to having a software on digital platform to enter such data?

As I said losing of documents, process taking too long, it is just not acceptable by the Committee.

What is the Ministry doing in that regard?

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Yes, you may respond.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

Yes, the idea of having a centralised system has been one of our issues that we highlighted in the past audit reports.
We are aware of the fact that the number of recipients is increasing and the manual way we do things is not acceptable especially in this time and age.

We have made attempts but unfortunately we do not have control of the systems.

If we want a system to be established or developed, we will have to go through the Department of Information Technology and Computing (ITC) Services.

The ITC Services will have to give approval for us to be able to proceed in developing such a system.
We have in the past years consulted with ITC Services 11 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 and I think just recently, last year there was a system that was supposed to be implemented, up and running.
Then we were advised not to use the system and so now we have consultations with the Government’s current IT contractor to look at developing a system but as I had mentioned in my response to the audit report, I believe that as you have mentioned, Sir, if we have a centralised system where we can capture all these things, a lot of the issues that are highlighted in the questions from the OAG will be addressed because most of these issues are in regards to processes.
It can be addressed if we have a centralised system where we can not only connect with our field officers but also important organisations such as BDM and the FNPF.

At the moment, I have 20 officers in the field all over Fiji.

Every month they submit a payment list.

This is sent to headquarters which validates and verifies it before submitting for payment.

I can understand with that volume of numbers, there is bound to be mistakes and miss outs.

That is a challenge that we face.


DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

Honourable Radrodro, your question.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Director.

A requirement for the payment of SPS and PBS is the issuance of life certificate.

Can you just inform the Committee how has the Ministry addressed the need to have a life certificate?

Do they have to certify themselves as being alive?

What costs do they incur given the increase in birth certificate cost as well?
What is the process for this certification, a life certificate?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you Honourable Member.

The process, as I had mentioned earlier, we have a form.

There are several parts in the form.

The first part would be their bio- data, latest address if they have changed.

The second part would be validation from a next of kin.

The third part would be verification from a member of the public like the Turaga ni Koro or a civil servant, any important person in the community.
That is the form and that is the certificate.

There is no other certificate that is given, once they fill that form, it is sent back to us, we take it and we update information in the case files.

There is no cost to it.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Has that certified form been approved to be used by the Government?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Yes, Honourable Member.

When we developed the form we had sent it for verification and so once it was passed then we started using that form.

HON.
HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- In your response to the OAG, you had mentioned that the Cabinet paper had to be submitted for this process.

Can you update the Committee whether it has now been submitted and approved by the Cabinet?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Honourable Member, yes.

The Cabinet paper was submitted in September last year.

Once it was approved, that is why we are currently conducting the exercise.

We are in the second phase now which is media awareness.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.


Is there a supplementary question, Honourable Members?

If none then we will ask Honourable Maharaj to ask his question please.

12 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 HON.

A.A. MAHARAJ.- Thank you.

Deputy Chair, through you.

We have seen that once an applicant becomes a recipient of any kind of social wage, there are a lot of complaints.
How often do you review case files of these recipients?

Is it on a complaints basis or do you have random checks?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

Reviews are a part of our annual work.

If you notice in my submission, I have highlighted a number of reviews that were conducted in 2018 and 2019.

We have reviewed 5,562 PBS cases and 1786 cases under C&P.

For SPS, we have reviewed 14,258 and the Disability Allowance, we have reviewed 623.
That is our annual work, a part of the work that our officers do.

Yes, for cases where complaints are raised, we make sure to review those cases.

The review is part of our annual work that is conducted by our officers.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

Is there any supplementary question?

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just to follow-on in terms of another audit issue.

Those that have received their allowance, 18 years.
Those as the auditors highlighted, those that continue to receive their allowances when they reach 14 years.

How has the Ministry addressed this overpayment of allowances to those 18 years and above?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

Yes, we have looked at the issue and addressed it.

For example, under the C & P allowance if there are three children, one is 17, one is 10 and one is 9.
It will all depend on how we input data in the system but reviews are done and we have taken note of the highlighted issues.

My colleagues here who did that review, manually checked the system for every case and we have adjusted the cases where the system or the database highlighted that children are 18 years and above.

It is not complete.

We currently doing it because every year a child turns 18 and so that is an ongoing process.
If they are 17 this year, they will turn 18 because the definition age for a child is 18.

Once they turn 18 then they will have to be removed from the system.

It is an ongoing process.

As I mentioned earlier, it will be easily addressed if we have a robust system.

At the moment, it is done manually by my officers and those are the challenges that they face.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just a supplementary question on that.
Your explanation to the OAG was that there was a system in place to conduct that exercise but now you have resorted to manual identification.

What is now happening to that system?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- The system that we had for the C & P allowance was developed in 2008.

It was called the e-Gov system.

For the Committee’s information, we had three systems already but never a system where we would able to centralise all our work.

Our social protections are on standalone systems, different systems.
The e-Gov was developed to specifically, with the C & P allowance and so there is the challenge that we have.

We do not have the administrator’s access and any changes that we need will have to go back to ITC Services for those changes.

13 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 Unfortunately the company that developed the system is not working anymore with the ITC Services.
What happens is that my office will have to go to the system and check manually.

That is what I referred to as them having to check manually, to pick those cases that are 18 years and above.

This is an ongoing process.

It will be ideal if the system is able to flag it to us when a child turns 18.

That would be ideal.

At the moment, no.

We have to do it manually.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, a supplementary question to the Director.

You mentioned that you already had three systems in place.
You are looking for an additional system to improve on your processes and procedures regarding the payments of these schemes.

A question, first regarding on the system.

Is it a certified system that has been undertaken through the ITC Services?

If it is then how come it was not operational during the time of audit.

DEPUTY CHAIPERSON.- You response on this, please.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Honourable Member.

When I mentioned three systems, the PBS had a system.

Child welfare … HON.


A.M. RADRODRO.- (Inaudible) MR. R. FATIAKI.- Yes.

The C & P Allowance has a system.

For the SPS, at the moment, there is no system but somehow or another we will have to come up with a system and our people are doing it through excel just to register those cases.

Those are the three systems that I am talking about, these are all standalone.
The ideal as I mentioned, is to have one system where all the cases and assistance can be in that one, which means we can crosscheck if someone is receiving this assistance.

We will be able to capture it.

If they are double-dipping, we will be able to capture it in that one system.
At the moment, it has to be through manual checks and when I am talking about centralised system, I am talking about a system that would be able to capture all of our systems so that will be able to flag all these issues that I am highlighting to the Honourable Committee this afternoon.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

Honourable Radrodro, your question.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, again on the system.


It is a very concerning issue when you start tracing that these systems are all standalone and they are not talking to each other.

The issue regarding this e-Gov system.

That is one system you have.

You just mentioned it, the e-Gov system but that is still not working because as per the OAG report, you are now resorting to manual identification.

The first question is regarding the system.


What process have you undertaken to ensure that these systems are actually working as you intended in the first place?

Have you taken the supplier to task?

Have you taken ITC Services to task to address this shortfall?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- At the moment I would say it is working in the sense that we are able to capture our daily cases.
Our cases are captured in that but what I am referring to is that because the system is incomplete, we will have to manually check it.

The … HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Is it the Government system?

Why are you not referring back to the people who created this system to ensure that it works?

Is it the ITC Services or is it the company?

Which company does it and why has it not been addressed?
14 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 MR. R. FATIAKI.- For your information, Honourable Member, we have consulted the ITC Services on these issues and that has also appeared in our previous reports.

That is where we are at the moment.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

HON.

A.A. MAHARAJ.- When was this system procured?

Chair, through you.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- In 2008, Honourable Chair.


HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- You contacted the ITC Services.

Can you inform the Committee that they have not come back to address the system that you have?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Maybe I can allow my colleague who is handling these systems to address that.

MS. R. BI.- Thank you.

Through you, Honourable Chair.

Yes, we contacted ITC Services because the system that was done by the company from Singapore, NTS in 2008.

They developed the e-Gov system.


We were unable to make any changes.

For example, during one of the budget submissions.

When the time came for a change in allowances, the formula could not be changed in the system.

We had contacted ITC Services if that could be done, instead we were referred to have another system done by the group from India, the Yalamanchili Group and another system was developed.
It was tested, ready to be used and we had written to the Ministry of Communications if we could start using that.

It was also in consultation with the World Bank which had also viewed the system and they were ready to assist should there be any other changes that needed to be done, however, we were told that we are not to use that system, they are still in liaison with the vendor for some contractual issues.

From then we were referred to digitalFIJI, the current vendor for developing systems.
Also with the World Bank team, we have done the Business Process Review (BPR) and the digitalFIJI team is awaiting for that report before starting to design the system which should be an integrated centralised system.

That is what we are after.

I hope this clarifies the issue.

Thank you.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Thank you for the information.

A question regarding the cost of this system.


Would the Ministry be able to advise the different costs that are involved in procuring these systems especially from the Singapore company and the Yalamanchili company.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Yes, you may respond.

MS. R. BI.- Chair, through you.

Sorry, I will not be able to say anything on that.

I am not aware of the costs involved, however, we can only state about the proposal that the World Bank has done if we decide to do another new system.
It may cost around US$850,000.

15 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 HON.

A. RADRODRO.- So this new system was not procured by the Ministry.

MS. R. BI.- Not really.

It was not procured by the Ministry but it is the Government’s ITC Services system that we are currently using.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

Honourable Prakash, you may ask your question.

HON.
HON.

V. PRAKASH.- Thank you, Chair, through you.

This is regarding payments made to deceased recipients.

What action has the Ministry taken to ensure that payments cease as soon as a recipient has passed on?

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you.

You may respond.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- As I mentioned earlier, it is part of the reviews.

Several reasons for the reviews ensure that whoever died, in file case they have passed on.
Cases that have improved in their economic status and places that need more assistance so part of the review encompasses all these.

In our reviews we have come across cases where recipients have deceased.

Again, we also rely heavily on recipients’ relatives to inform us about their deceased relatives.

We have been working with BDM to identify registered cases where recipients are deceased.

Again, we have challenges in this area.


In some cases people living in the rural and maritime areas, if they are not registered on time then the BDM system will not be able to capture it meaning you will not be able to capture it.

Additional to that, now we have the Fiji Care, insurance of social protection.

It was implemented last year.

With these, we have seen an increase in reporting because in this insurance, there is a funeral claim of $1,000 for any recipient that has deceased.
We have seen an increase in people coming to report that a certain relative has deceased so that they would be able to claim this insurance.

We have experienced an increase in the number of people being reported as deceased.

HON.

V. PRAKASH.- A supplementary question.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Yes, Honourable Prakash.

HON.

V. PRAKASH.- Thank you very much for that information.

I think the insurance claim that they make for the deceased is one way of finding the records.
Could you clarify the insurance amount?

Is it only $1,000 or there is some variation?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Allow me to respond, Honourable Chairman.

Yes, the insurance that I mentioned was implemented last year.

This includes several claims or benefits.

There is life term insurance, accident insurance and fire insurance.

The life term insurance is from the age of 69 and below, they are able to claim depending on the age.
I do not have the breakdown with me but I will be able to provide it but that is the life term insurance that they can claim.

HON.

V. PRAKASH.- It is very important information, Chair.

You can provide that information later so that we are able to know.
Could you elaborate on insurance for fires and 16 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 accidents so that the general public is aware what other assistance is attached for recipients of social protection allowances?

The recipients can benefit from it and with that a record of those living and deceased can be immediately traced.

Can you elaborate on the other schemes that you have?
MR. R. FATIAKI.- May I, Honourable Chair.

With the accident, there is a claim of $3,000.

For example, if they lose mobility, they would be able to claim the full amount which is $3,000, however, if it is partial and if they lose a limb then they would be able to receive half, $1,500.

For the fire, if the house is fully destroyed, they would be able to claim $6,000.

If it is partially destroyed then they would be able to claim $1,500.
This is for all the social protection recipients that we discussed this afternoon including the SPS, the old age persons.

HON.

A.M RADRODRO.- What about the fire report?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- I remember, yes.

There are certain documents that are required to be provided to Fiji Care Insurance before such payments can be done.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Are there supplementary questions?

HON.
HON.

V. PRAKASH.- Chair, before I ask a supplementary question, I would like to thank for those added schemes to assist recipients of social protection allowances in their time of need and that those things are available now.

In fact, it is really timely and I think it is of great assistance to the Department of Social Welfare.

Do you have any way of checking records from the Fiji Police Force (FPF) because for a burial or cremation, without a police report it cannot be done?
That is another way to try and find out if a recipient is living or dead.

Police reports are needed and without that a cremation or burial cannot be done.

Do you crosscheck with the FPF as well?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Honourable Chair, thank you.

Honourable Member, thank you for your suggestion.

It is an area that we have not ventured into but we will take that on board and see how it will work.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

Honourable Lalabalavu, you may ask your question please.
A question, Honourable Radrodro.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just a follow on from that payment made to deceased recipients.

The OAG has tabled it at about $18,500 of payments to respective recipients.

What steps have been taken by the Ministry regarding these overpayments?

Also, there are concerns regarding your approach to the BDM and your viewing that has been recommended by the OAG for your liaison with the BDM.
What is the progress of this status to ensure that there is no repeat of such overpayments?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Chair.

May I respond to that.

Honourable Member, thank you.

Yes, for the overpayments, once that is highlighted with us, what we normally do is we try and do an investigation.

If we discover that relatives are using it, normally we ask them to pay back the amount that is used.
17 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- The particular cases that have been highlighted.

There are about six cases.

Have they been recovered?

Maybe you can come back to us on that.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Yes.


We can come back on those cases but normally the process is that we will do an investigation and then if we discover that it has been used by family members, we ask them to pay back the amount.

If they do not then the next step for us is to take it court.

Those are the processes that we take but as for the BDM connectivity, maybe I could again ask my colleague here, who is the one dealing with the BDM on how we can connect to their system.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- You may respond.


MS. R. BI.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

Yes, we have been given access to the BDM system and we are able to check cases now.

We are able to log in and check the status case- by-case.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Is there any Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) or Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) with the BDM?

MS. R. BI.- Not at the moment but we are given that access by digitalFIJI.

That is the platform to check for these cases in the BDM system.

Thank you.
Thank you.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you.

Any other supplementary question, Honourable Members.

Do you wish to ask any other question, Honourable Members?

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- The last audit issue regarding inconsistency in determination of eligible income and recipients.

It has been highlighted by the OAG.

Can the Ministry advise what step has been taken to address the inconsistency in determination of eligible income?
It says here that in some sample cases, they noted inconsistency in eligible income of recipients.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Honourable Chair, may I respond to that.

We have updated all the amounts especially with the PBS and the C&P Allowance.

We tried to bring there because in the last couple of years when the amount was changed, like the SPS.

It was $30 then $50 and it was $100.00.


What happened is that the inconsistencies that, again going back to our system, when we changed it, it was different like for the $100.00 or $50.00.

It is easy because my colleague here would be able to check the system and just change it all to $100.

With the other two, it is different amounts so these are the ones where they will have to manually check the case file and the current amount that needs to be adjusted.
For the determination of cases, it is one of our processes that when conduct reviews, we do a home assessment on their case files where they will have a phone contact and address so what normally happens is that our officers will try and call the contact or try doing a home visit.

If it happens that they do not respond to the contact number or if they go to their homes and then they have disappeared, they are no longer staying there, what happens is that we put those cases on hold.
We put a hold on those cases until they come back to us.

When they come back to us, we reactivate those cases and we backdate it to the months that they missed out.

That is another way of us trying to update the information on our case files.

18 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

Is there any other supplementary question?

HON.


V. PRAKASH.- Just a last question from me, Chair.

Director, Sir, there are people whose allowances have been cancelled and they believe that it should not have been.

Is there any way that they can appeal the decision of cancellation and if they have to appeal, how do they appeal?

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Yes, you may respond to this.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Chair and Honourable Member.
Yes, in cases where recipients think that their allowances have been terminated unfairly, they have all the reasons to raise it aptly and then it comes to my office and so we will be able to direct and an assessment is done on such cases to reinstate.

It will all depend on the findings from the assessments that are carried out by officers.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much for your response.

Are there other questions or remarks?

HON.


A.M. RADRODRO.- Chair, just a general question in terms of your SOPs that you developed.

We note that this audit has highlighted a lot of discrepancies in the Ministry adopting or following the SOPs that were developed.

Can you just inform the Committee whether these SOPs are benchmarked to some international SOPs for pension schemes or is it just an in-house development?
As it is, it does not seem to be wholly working so it questions the logic of the processes that are involved here.

This is just a sample audit of about 200-plus recipients that was undertaken as compared to about 35,000 SPS recipients at the date of audit.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Yes, you may respond to this.

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

Honourable Member, our SOPs are done internally, based on our processes and how we conduct those processes.
It gets the approval of our executive management and so as it has developed, it has continued to evolve because as we have discussed this afternoon, the processes and criteria keep changing.

Also, the amounts keep changing so what we need to do is to continue to update as per the current practice.

That is how we developed the SOPs.

We have conducted training with our officers in the field so that they are aware of the requirements of the SOPs.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.


Do you have a comment on this, OAG?

MR. A. SAUNIVALU.- Thank you, Honourable Chair.

We acknowledge the work that is done by the Ministry.

It was also the volume of files that they deal with, so from our point of view, the onus will be on the Ministry to ensure that controls are in place to deliver what is under its mandate.

Thank you.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Yes, Honourable Radrodro.


19 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020 HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- Yes, Chair.

Just lastly in terms of your monitoring processes, specifically the bus fares for elderly people.

How do you monitor the Bus Fare Concession?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Honourable Chair, may I respond to that.
The Bus Fare Concession is a partnership between the Government, the Land Transport Authority (LTA) and the bus companies.

We come in, in the filling of forms and providing them with identification cards.

Once they come and we give them the identification cards, they take it to Vodafone, there is a partnership with Vodafone which gives them the M-PAiSA card.

At the moment the monitoring for Bus Fare Concession is done by the LTA and that is something we will have to look at.
There are 52,000 beneficiaries of this concession.

We are looking into ways as to how we would be able to review this.

HON.

A.M. RADRODRO.- You mentioned it is monitored by the LTA which just ensures that recipients are charged half the bus fare levy.

What do you mean monitoring by LTA?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- Honourable Chair, may I.

The LTA is monitoring the users of this assistance.

For example, the elderlies use purple cards while somebody comes in, who is of a young age and using a purple card.
For the payments, the Government pays $40 to Vodafone which then uploads a recipient’s allowance for the month.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Is there any other question, Honourable Members?

Since there is none, I request Honourable Prakash to give a concluding remarks on behalf of our Committee.

Thank you.

HON.

V. PRAKASH.- On behalf of the Chair, Deputy Chair and the Members of the Committee, Madam PS, Director, Sir and other members, we extend our heartfelt appreciation for your presentation today.
We know the task ahead of you, how important it is for those who are in need and we have realised that you really need to upgrade the system that you are talking about so that your work becomes easier.

A lot of things that have been highlighted by the audit team can be resolved.

We thank all the staff who are involved in these assistance programmes and please continue with the best work that you are carrying out.

Thank you very much.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you, Honourable Prakash.
Are there concluding remarks?

MR. R. FATIAKI.- On behalf of the PS, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Committee for allowing us to come and I think this is to help us improve how we deliver service to our people.

DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON.- Thank you very much.

At this juncture I wish to sincerely thank all the stakeholders for availing yourselves for this inquiry.

Also, we thank the Ministry for your time and responses to the issues raised.
I hope that you will avail yourselves for any further inquiries that the Committee may have regarding this matter.

Thank you very much.

You have a blessed day.

The Committee adjourned at 2.27 p.m. 20 | Verbatim – Performance Audit Report for the Social Welfare Ministry of Social Welfare, Children and Poverty Alleviation Tuesday, 10th March, 2020