Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698753173490.pdf (Malaysia)
Bil.32 Selasa 30 September 2014 MALAYSIA LAPORAN PROSIDING MESYUARATJAWATANKUASA KIRA-KIRA WANG NEGARA Mengenai: Penyambungan Laluan ERL Dari KLIA ke KLIA 2 - Kementerian Pengangkutan PARLIMEN KETIGA BELAS PENGGAL KEDUA PAC 30.9.2014 MESYUARAT JAWATANKUASA KIRA-KIRA WANG NEGARA BILIK MESYUARAT JAWATANKUASA 1, PARLIMEN MALAYSIA SELASA, 30 SEPTEMBER 2014 - Pengerusi - Timba/an Pengerusi - Setiausaha AHLI-AHLI JAWATANKUASA Hadir YB.

Datuk Nur Jazlan bin Mohamed [Pulai] YB.

Dr. Tan Seng Giaw [Kepong] VB.


Dato' Abd .

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir [Kulim-Bandar Baharu] YB.

Dato' Kamarudin bin Jaffar [Tumpat] VB.

Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Haji Habibollah [Limbang] VB.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee [Petaling Jaya Utara] YBhg.

Datuk Roosme binti Hamzah Tidak Hadir [Dengan Maaf] VB.

Datuk Seri Reezal Merican [Kepala Batas] VB.

Puan Mas Ermieyati binti Samsudin [Masjid Tanah] VB.

Datuk Liang Teck Meng [Simpang Renggam] VB.

Datuk Madius bin Tangau [Tuaran] YB.


Datuk Wee Jeck Seng [Tanjong Piai] YB.

Tuan William Leong Jee Keen [Selayang] VB.

Dato' Kamarul Baharin bin Abbas [Telok Kemang] URUS SETIA Encik Che Seman Pa Chik [Setiausaha Bahagian (Pengurusan Dewan)] Encik Amisyahrizan bin Amir Khan [Ketua Penolong Setiausaha (Perundangan dan Prosiding)] Encik Nasrul Izani bin Ramli [Penolong Setiausaha I (Perundangan dan Prosiding)] HADIR BERSAMA Jabatan Audit Negara YBhg.

Datuk Hj.
Anwari bin Suri [Timbalan Ketua Audit Negara (Persekutuan)] Puan Saadatul Nafisah binti Bashir Ahmad [Pengarah Sektor Audit Kerajaan Persekutuan] Puan Jacinta Wong Ngouk Hua [Timbalan Pengarah Audit Persekutuan (Pengangkutan)] Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kiraWangNegaraI BiI.32 2014 sambl- PAC 30.9.2014 ii HADIR BERSAMA (sambl-) Kementerian Kewangan Encik Suhaili bin Ahmad [Timbalan Setiausaha Bahagian (Strategik)] Puan Faridah Nor binti Mohd Yasin [Ketua Penolong Setiausaha (Parlimen & Kabinet) 2] Jabatan Akauntan Negara Puan Maslina binti Kamarudin [Ketua Penolong Pengarah] Jabatan Perkhidmatan Awam Encik Ali Badaruddin bin Abd.
Kadir [TPBK(K)A] Unit Perancang Ekonomi Encik 'Allauddin bin Anuar [TKP(S) UPE] SAKSI·SAKSI Kementerian Pengangkutan YBhg.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool {Ketua Setiausaha MOT] YBhg.

Dato' Chandra Sekakan P. [SUB (Udara) MOT] Puan Noormah binti Mohd.

Noor [CEO ERL] YBhg.

Dato' Abd Hamid bin Mohd Ali [COO MAHB] Jr. Mohd.

Zaifuddin Idris [SGM MAHB] Encik Mano a/I Veragathran [TSUB (Pembangunan) MOT] Encik Mohd.
Asyraf bin Mohd Amin [PSU (PU) MOT] Encik Saifulddin bin Puteh [Penolong Setiausaha] Puan Teh Lian Tai [Ketua Penolong Setiausaha] Laporan Prosldlng JK Kira-kira WangNegara 1811.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 1 LAPORAN PROSIDING MESYUARAT JAWATANKUASA KIRA-KIRA WANG NEGARA PARLIMEN KETIGA BELAS, PENGGAL KEDUA Selasa, 30 September 2014 Bilik Mesyuarat Jawatankuasa 1, Parlimen Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur Mesyuarat dimulakan pada pukul 11.04 pagi [Yang Berhormat Datuk Nur Jazlan bin Mohamed mempengerusikan Mesyuarat] Tuan Pengerusi: Selamat pagi saya ucapkan kepada Timbalan Pengerusi serta juga Ahli ahli Jawatankuasa PAC.
Memandangkan kuorum sudah cukup empat orang, lebih satu, kita boleh mulakan mesyuarat.

Yang Berbahagia Datuk Hj.

Anwari dan juga pasukan daripada Jabatan Audit Negara, wakil kementerian, wakil EPU, wakil JPA, wakil Kementerian Kewangan.

Selamat datang ke Mesyuarat PAC kita pada pagi inilah.
Sebenarnya Mesyuarat PAC kita pada pagi ini ialah untuk memanggil Kementerian Pengangkutan untuk memberikan penjelasan mengenai pembinaan laluan Express Rail Link (ERL) daripada KLIA ke KLlA2 yang sebenarnya sepanjang 2.2 kilometer yang dibina dengan kos RM100 juta yang dibiayai oleh kerajaan.

Isu ini juga menimbulkan tanda tanya kenapa untuk satu jarak yang pendek kos penyambungan tersebut adalah begitu tinggi.
Memandangkan tidak ada keperluan tambahan seperti hendak memasukkan sambungan elektrik, jalan raya dan sebagainya untuk membuat kerja sambungan daripada KLIA ke KLlA2.
Kita juga sebenarnya pada hari ini hendak mengambil peluang dengan kedatangan Kementerian Pengangkutan juga untuk bertanya apa-apa soalan tambahan lain mengenai pembinaan KLlA2 yang juga telah timbul isu-isu seperti pemendapan yang kita telah jangkakan sebelum ini pun dan juga telah dimaklumkan kepada kita apakah kejadian pemendapan yang berlaku.

Apakah tindakan yang akan diambil oleh pihak MAHB untuk menyelesaikan masalah pemendapan ini.
Saya dua hari lepas pun saya telah menggunakan KLlA2 dan saya ada gambar yang saya sendiri ambil bahawa kerja-kerja hendak korek tanah di antara 2 parking bay, hendak betulkan paip pun dibuat di sebelah kapal terbang yang saya naik itu.

Maknanya selepas enam bulan orang kata KLlA2 itu telah dibuka sudah jadi macam construction site jugalah apabila mereka terpaksa membuat kerja ad-hoc ini untuk hendak memperbaiki kerosakan yang disebabkan oleh pemendapan dan sebagainya.
Isu pemendapan ini juga pun boleh menimbulkan masalah seperti berlakunya lubang dan sebagainya.

Jangan lupa dalam isu pemendapan, selepas itu dengan hujan yang lebat di tempat berlaku pemendapan Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8i1.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 2 tersebut boleh berlaku takungan air dan juga boleh menyebabkan tanah tersebut poros yang boleh menimbulkan masalah lubang akan timbul di tempat yang mendap itu.
Jadi lebih baik kita tanya soalan ini dulu pada MAHB apakah penjelasan yang mereka hendak berikan sama ada penjelasan jangka pendek atau jangka panjang supaya kita akhirnya dapat menutup laporan mengenai KLlA2 ini.

Jadi Yang Berhormat Petaling Jaya Utara, you ask for this before this is your final chance to ask them about any issue before we finalized the report.

So, kalau tidak ada apa-apa lagi soalan lagi.

Saya rasa audit ERL pun ada apa-apa maklumat tambahan mengenai ERL?

Datuk Hj.
Datuk Hj.

Anwari bin Suri [Tlmbalan Ketua Audit Negara (Persekutuan)): Terima kasih Tuan Pengerusi, Yang Berhormat Timbalan Pengerusi, Yang Berhormat-Yang Berhormat di PAC, Setiausaha PAC Yang Berbahagia Datuk Roosme binti Hamzah.

Jadi pada hari ini kita telah menyiapkan draft paper bagi siasatan projek KLlA2 yang kami telah edarkan.

Disebut tadi bahawa akan ditelitilah selepas ini.


Pada hari ini kita akan memanggil pihak MOT untuk memberikan penjelasan penyambungan laluan sebagaimana disebut KLiA ke KLlA2, ERL ya.

Jadi sebagai asasnya Yang Berhormat, kita ada buat satu penyiasatan, suatu paper yang di bentang juga di edar.

Okeylah, pada 26 Ogos 1997 perjanjian ditandatangani antara Kerajaan Persekutuan dengan Express Rail Link Sdn.

Bhd., ini telah dilantik sebagai syarikat konsesi.


Jadi syarikat konsesi dikehendaki design, bina, deliver, install, commission, test, manage, operate dan maintain ERL serta perkhidmatan komuter rail daripada KL Sentraf ke KLlA, ERL-CRS system dengan kos RM2.4 bilion.

Sudah siap pada April 2002, dulu kita ada buat kajian report punya PAC pun sudah masuk kita sama-sama turun ke KLlA2 yang bagasi sebahagian.
• 1110 Mengikut klausa 18.3 konsesi, ERL-CRS sistem disambung ke low cost carrier terminal di KLlA2.

So, jarak dua kilometer sebagaimana disebut tadi.

So, pada 7 Mac 2011, MOT telah mencadangkan dua opsyen.

Opsyen pertama 100% dibiayai oleh kerajaan dengan concession period 30 tahun plus 30 tahun, sama tambang seperti dari KL Sentral ke KLiA atau KLlA2.

Tidak ada caj dikenakan antara KLiA dan KLlA2.

Tanah dan stesen disediakan oleh MAHB tanpa sebarang caj dikenakan kepada ERL.
Kos operasi dan penyelenggaraan untuk jarak dua kilometer ditanggung oleh ERL.

Ini opsyen number one.

Option two, 100% dibiayai oleh Bank Pembangunan Malaysia secara pinjaman tetapi tempoh konsesi ditambah dari 30 tahun campur 30 tahun kepada 60 tahun campur 30 tahun.

Caj fare dikenakan RM2 dari KLiA ke KLlA2.

Kos tanah stesen, kos operasi dan maintenances sama seperti di opsyen 1, ditanggung oleh ERL.
Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNegara I Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 3 Pada 14 Mac 2011, Economic Council telah meluluskan sambungan ERL ke KLlA2 ditanggung oleh kerajaan mengikut opsyen 1.

Dengan kadar fare sebagaimana disebut tadi RM2 antara KLiA ke KLlA2.

Kos pembinaan RM100 juta.

Ini maklumat dan dokumen-dokumen telah pun kita peroleh.

Tuan Pengerusl: Akan tetapi kos ditanggung oleh kerajaan 100%, RM2 itu yang collect ERL, syarikat swasta?
Sebenarnya syarikat swasta tetapi dimiliki majoriti oleh kerajaanlah.

ERL sekarang ini berapa dia punya pegangan saham kerajaan dengan ini?

I think that is good question to ask.

Saya dimaklumkan 70%... Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee [Petaling Jaya Utara]: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suaraJ Tuan Pengerusi: Tidak.

The shareholding of ERL Sdn.

Bhd.

itself is saya dimaklumkan 70% kerajaan... Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suaraJ Tuan Pengerusi: 70:30.
That is the issue I think- I think it is the issue that we should focus on.

I means why is government paying for something which is stand on government land, that is fine.

But collecting of the money is not collected by government, it is collected by private company even though it is owned majority by government.

Kalau tidak ada apa-apa lagi - Jawatankuasa ada apa apa?
[Saksi-saksi dari Kementerian Pengangkutan mengambil tempat di dalam bilik Jawatankuasa 1J Tuan Pengerusi: Saya ucapkan terima kasih kepada Datuk kerana telah sudi datang pada hari ini ke prosiding PAC yang sebenarnya di luar daripada Laporan Ketua Audit Negara, tetapi telah menimbulkan tanda tanya juga.

Kita pun hendak tahu juga mengenai isu ini iaitu mengenai isu Express Rail Link Kos sambungan daripada KLiA ke KLlA2.
Akan tetapi elok juga pada hari ini bahawa dalam penerangan ataupun penjelasan yang akan diberikan, kalau boleh untuk manfaat kami sebagai Jawatankuasa bahawa penjelasan juga dapat diberikan mengenai rasional dan juga operasi ERL setakat ini terutama dari segi pelaksanaannya, walaupun sudah lama sebenarnya ERL ini.

Saya pun selalu naik.

ERL ini memang baguslah operasinya, jarang breakdown tetapi dari segi pembiayaannya juga kalau boleh diberi sedikit penjelasan.
Jadi selepas penjelasan mengenai ERL ini, Jawatankuasa pun ingin mengambil peluang sedikit untuk hendak bertanya soalan lanjutan mengenai pembinaan KLlA2, terutama sekali isu mendapan yang telah dilaporkan masih berlaku di KLlA2 tersebut.

Jadi, sekali gus kita buat ERL dan Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Nagara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 4 KLlA2 ini.

Jadi, selepas ini kita boleh muktamadkan laporan PAC mengenai KLlA2 dan juga diharapkan mengenai ERL sekali.
Jadi, saya ucapkan terima kasih di atas kerjasama yang ditunjukkan oleh Datuk.

Sanggup datang ke sini walaupun kalau ikut atur cara biasa, Datuk sudah hendak relaks sudah, sudah tidak mahu lagi apa-apa gusar, pening kepala dan sebagainya.

Datuk faham apa maksud saya.

• 1120 Akan tetapi, tujuan kami di sini bukanlah untuk hendak menyusahkan Datuk tetapi kita hendak mendapatkan the big picture mengenai apa yang berlaku dengan perkara-perkara yang kita siasat ini.
Jadi, saya hendak mohon juga kepada Datuk, kita ada mendapat maklumat-maklumat daripada pihak-pihak lain yang kita juga akan bertanyakanlah kepada Datuk dan juga pegawai pegawai Datuk untuk mendapatkan penjelasan yang lebih lanjut.

Jadi, tanpa melengahkan masa lagi, saya mengucapkan "Selamat Datang, Datuk dan pasukan Datuk".

Saya minta Datuk perkenalkan mereka dan selepas itu kita boleh mulakan prosiding ini.

Sekian, terima kasih.


Datuk Seri Long See Wool [Ketua Setiausaha MOT]: Terima kasih dan selamat pagi, salam sejahtera, salam 1Malaysia.

Yang Berhormat Datuk Nur Jazlan bin Mohamed, Pengerusi PAC, Yang Berhormat Dr. Tan Seng Giaw, Naib Pengerusi PAC dan juga semua Ahli Jawatankuasa ini serta Yang Berbahagia Dato' Timbalan dari Jabatan Audit Negara dan pegawai-pegawai dari Jabatan Audit Negara serta semua pegawai dari jabatan-jabatan kerajaan yang saya hormati.
Saya ingin menyampaikan berbanyak-banyak terima kasih kepada PAC kerana telah memanggil kami datang ke sini untuk memberi sedikit taklimat dan juga memberi penjelasan atas apa-apa isu yang ahli-ahli PAC bangkitkan pada hari ini.

Bersama-sama saya ialah pegawai dari Kementerian Pengangkutan, Dato' Chandra Sekakan P. ialah Setiausaha Bahagian (Udara) yang bertanggungjawab atas dasar dan juga projek-projek pelaksanaan bagi lapangan-Iapangan terbang.

Di sebelah kiri saya ialah Puan Noormah Mohd.

Noor.
Noor.

Beliau adalah CEO Express Rail Link Sdn.

Bhd.

Juga seorang dua pegawai dari MAHB sebab kami dimaklumkan adanya lsu-lsu yang mungkin dibangkitkan mengenai KLlA2.

So, kami akan cuba sedaya-upaya untuk memberi penjelasan.

Sekiranya we do not have the information, we would like to request your permission that we will submit the answer to PAC, as soon as possible.
Saya juga ingin mengucapkan terima kasih kepada semua that we were given the opportunity to explain this because as you mention earlier, there are complaints, there are disquiet about ERL.

I think all this need to be explained to the PAC and also the public because there could be misunderstanding of certain issues that really related to ERL.
Kalau membenarkan saya memberi pendek sahaja taklimat on the extension of the ERL from KLiA which is the main terminal building to Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara / BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 5 KLlA2 which was funded by the government.

So if I may just take you to the slide very quickly, Yang Berhormat.

Just a little background mengenai ERL punya konsesi agreement dengan kerajaan.

It was signed on the 25th August 1997 just before the opening of KLiA in 1998 and the concession holder is ERL Sdn.
Bhd.

and it was based on the principle of build, operate and transfer.

If I may just for addition of information- the concession was for a period of 30 years and the project was fully funded by ERL Sdn.

Bhd.

which secured loan from the Bank Pembangunan, as well as the export credit agency financing of a Germany.

The total cost for ERL construction for the 57 kilometers dari KL Sentral ke KLiA was RM2.4 billion.

Data' Kamarudin bin Jaffar [Tum pat]: Shareholders of ERL Sdn.

Bhd?
Bhd?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Shareholders are YTL - 50%, Tabung Haji - 40%, Trisilco Equity - 10%.

The original submission... Tuan Pengerusi: Datuk,10% siapa?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Sorry.

Tuan Pengerusi: 10% tadi siapa?

[Disampuk] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Tan Sri Nadzmi punya company.

Tuan Pengerusi: Siapa?

Nadzmi, CEO PROTON dahulu?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ya.

Tuan Pengerusi: Okay, alright.


Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Of course during the submission the equity was slightly different but when it was completed there was a restructuring of the equity between the various shareholders.

So that is equity restructuring of the company.

At the point of the agreement, it was also certain important element of the concession was also structured in the agreement in terms of the fare structure and also the service tendered.

For instances, they operate two services.


One is the express train within dia punya journey time is 28 minutes and also the frequency of the services.

So depending on the traffic level, if the traffic goes up, there was step up the frequency.

So they also operate the commuter service that stop in three stations iaitu di situ... [Merujuk kepada slaid] From KL Sentral, Bandar Tasik Selatan, Putrajaya then Salak Tinggi sebelum berakhir di KLiA.
So, kalau kita mengambil kira the main terminal building and the extension to KLlA2, so now there will be additional one more stop.

So it is no longer five.

For the commuter it is six stations that they will have to operate.

Okay, if I may go to the next slide.

Now in respect of the KLlA2 extension, the length of the track is 2.2 kilometers.

The construction period is 26 bulan.


There was funding agreement by the government for 24 months and the RM100 millions construction cost include the civil work, the Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNegara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 6 system work which include macam M&E signaling, automatic train protection system, telecommunication and overhead catenary and also the SCADA system .

So, the stations fit up also were included in the concession and also the fare collecting system which is ticketing system.
Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: Okay.

Just a quick clarification.

Funding agreement, so the project is funded by the government.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Va. Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Why you said... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I will come to that.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: No, no.

Why is there 24 months?

It is a loan or funding agreement is a loan or what?

Datuk Serl Long See Wool: So, it isjust a loan.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: It is a loan.

So it is RM100 million loans?


Datuk Serl Long See Wool: Ya... (Disampuk] Sorry, sorry.

It is a grant.

It is not the loan.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: So why is there 24 months period?

Datuk Serl Long See Wool: It was the construction period anticipated at the time when we decided to fund the project.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: No, no.

I understand the construction period is 24 months or 26 months.
I am just trying to understand why is there - if it is funding say lah RM100 millions, so is funding RM100 millions over 24 months period, but it is actually a grant of RM100 millions?

Datuk Serl Long See Wool: Va. Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Okey.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: The date for the construction commence of 15th July and the completion 1st October 2013 and the date of operation was on 2nd of May although the system was ready but it was worth to be while waiting for the final completion and the opening of KLiA which only happened on the 2nd of May 2014.

Next.

This is just the peta menunjukkan the extension from the main terminal building to the KLlA2.

• 1130 Dato' Abd.
• 1130 Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir [Kulim-Bandar Baharu]: I just want to know how was the contractor dipilih, awarded?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Because we gave the funding to ERL Sdn.

Bhd., they are the one who selected the contractor for the purpose of construction.

Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: Macam mana cara selection?

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Nagars /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 7 Tuan Pengerusi: Was it tendered or was it preferred contractor, was it runding terus?
The mode of awarding the contract to built the extension.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Maybe Puan Noormah can answer that.

Puan Noormah binti Mohd.

Noor [CEO ERL]: Thank your Chairman.

On the contractor actually because the ERL has existing or rather the original contractor for the EPC contractor previously when this project also built was the SYZ Consortium and it was a joint venture between Siemens and YTL Construction, SPYTL.

Also, they have already the design and everything.


Actually because this was supposed to be on the fast track basis so, we actually then invited SPYTL together with a Seri Yakin, they are bumiputera partner to undertake this project.

Because I think is and YTL is also tract maintenance contractor for ERL.

So they are familiar with the construction and all that.

If we will appoint totally new contractor we will have to do alignment design and everything, it will take longer time.
We will not be able to meet the date, the completion date required by the Ministry of Transport.

So, that is the reason why we actually proposed to ministry and it was then approved by the MOF that the existing contractor for the one whom does our maintenance for the track for this project.

Thank you.

Tuan Pengerusi: Is it a direct nego or direct appointment?
Datuk Seri Long See Wool: It is a direct nego by them but this, this... Tuan Pengerusi: No, no I mean appointment one matter but the price negotiation whatever was it just they give you the price and you agreed.

Puan Noormah binti Mohd.

Noor: The original intention of RM100 millions was if ERL want to build ourselves and if we were to fund the project.
So, when we look at and there was a value management exercises done by the Ministry of Transport to make sure the contract is properly awarded with the price and all that.
The value management exercise was done over a week and I didn't know whether Datuk Seri has in the slide or not but the value management when we re-Iook at the price, it was originally at RM129.7 million because there were additional cost that was not factored in but because we had committed to the government that we will do this project at RM100 million, so eventually we do it at RM100 million, we have taken up all the other cost at our own cost actually.

Tuan Pengerusi: Is ERL Sdn.

Bhd.


under the purview of Jabatan Audit Negara?

It is consider a private.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Yes, private.

Tuan Pengerusi: What is the shareholding today?

Puan Noormah binti Mohd.

Noor: Sorry?

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-k ira Wang Nagara I Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 8 Tuan Pengerusl: The shareholding structure today, what is the shareholding actually it is 50:40:10, that's what Datuk Seri said there was the restructuring later on.
Datuk Serl Long See Wool: No, no that one 50:40:10 was the final structure.

Tuan Pengerusl: Oh, final structure.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Earlier when they submit the bid at the point in time, the structure was slightly different.

Tuan Pengerusi: But, Datuk Seri isn 't this for government money to be spent on private company shouldn't you apply tender or whatever to the process itself.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: What happen as explained by Puan Noormah, the grant was given to ERL Sdn.

Bhd.
Bhd.

Subsequently they wrote in justifying why they would like to award this contract to a particular contractor based on the justification she has explained just now.

So, based on that justification the government, we refer this to the Treasury and Treasury approved the construction on the basis that it has been within the cost of the grant.
Whatever additional cost will have to borne by the company because by then after the value management we realized that we were inform that the cost is going higher than the RM100 million but the government will not fund anything more than that because that was the funding that the government agreed earlier.

Tuan Pengerusi: Okey, Datuk.


Even that value management I assume that before value management was being implemented, the cost should be higher lah kan because value management is suppose to... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Eventually after the value management they relooked some of the details but the final cost of the project was lowered than RM129.

7 million is about RM116 million.

Tuan Pengerusi: The original cost that ERL Sdn.

Bhd.

had forecasted was about RM129 million is it correct?
Datuk Serl Long See Wool: Yes.

Tuan Pengerusi: And then after value management exercises it was still RM116 million and than the government grant was RM100 million.

So therefore they squeeze other RM16 million out of it.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Yes, the anything that above had to be funded by... Tuan Pengerusi: And the value management was done by your unit in your ministry.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: It was EPU lead?

Tuan Pengerusi: EPU lead, betul?


Okey, alright wakil EPU confirm, bahawa EPU yang buat to-cost value management punya exercise?

Encik 'Allauddin bin Anuar (TKP(S) Unit Perancang Ekonomi]: The value management been done by the EPU bersama-sama dengan kementerian sekalilah.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-k ira Wang Nagara 18il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 9 Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: Chairman, how many companies in the world can undertake this job?
Did you ever find out how many companies, berapa syarikat yang mampu membuat kerja seperti ini?

Is it ten companies?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: In the world?

Oh, in the world there are many.

Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: So, why you have to choose this one?

Is it because it is so special?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I think she has explained.

It is a familiarity of the system and they were the previous contractor before.

The costing is quite known.


I think that was the basis that is why the government did not say no to them.

If I may proceed, Yang Berhormat?

There were two options at the point in time presented to EC option 1 and option 2 will explain later.

So, if I can go to the Option 1, these are the following elements involved that the concession period will remain.

The fare the same.

They would not be allowed to increase the fare for the Express Train as well as commuter train to KLIA as well as KLlA2.
Meaning that, going to KLlA2 also will be the RM35, and then there was an operational cost there was quite clearly detailed out to us i. e. the maintaining the two point something kilometer will be about RM3.2 million a year.

The second option- the different of the second option is that they said if they have to fund it they would like the concession period to be extended another 30 years .
So, as far as the government was concern the extension 30 years was too long period and they will have to restructure the entire agreement and the government at the point in time felt that they rather not increase the concession period because they could be other development that will come about and we do not tie and tie the government for another automatic extension 30 years.

So, therefore we decided to fund it RM100 million.


Of course at the point in time there was a request for a charge RM2 in between KLIA and KLlA2.

Just for the passengers between KLlA, KLlA2.

Siapa yang naik dari Kuala Lumpur, Salak Tinggi dari mana-mana tempat itu tambang yang asal dikekalkan .

Tuan Pengerusi: I think that is a good point because everybody assumes that RM2 is actually for the whole trip.

I mean RM35 in KLIA and RM37 to KLIA 2.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, no, it is still RM35.
Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So, hanya untuk penumpang yang naik di antara main terminal building dengan KLlA2 sahaja .

Only them- they have to pay the RM2.

Tuan Pengerusi: Accidentally can I side line a bit ya?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Sorry?

Tuan Pengerusi: Can I side line a bit?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Sure, sure Sir.


Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNegara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 10 Tuan Pengerusi: Apa ini- that RM35 the original cost in the original of demand kan, there was a talk about passengers charge being part of the RM35 itu.

Is it part of it ataupun the whole of the RM35?

Kan MAHB pays to the ERL punya projek ini - I am not sure is it a certain portion kah ataupun the whole RM35 kah?

That's the payment by MAHB to the ERL project.


Datuk Serl Long See Wool: Oh, okay, okay.

Now I get you.

We have to go back to the original contract.

The original discussion between ERL and the government.

Yang Berhormat, at the point when we decided to built KLlA, it was very quiet far.

Because Subang was reasonably close to PJ and to Kuala Lumpur.

So, this airport was quiet far.


So, one of the essential elements when we proceeded to KLlA2 was the need for a train service to guarantee the journey time.

As I mention earlier 28 minutes.

We look at many airports in the world, it is important that we have the rail link.

But recognizing the fact that railway services- if you were to price it according to whatever construction cost and operational cost, it would be expensive.
So, the government decided that KL- ERL should be part and parcel of the entire airport system as such.

So, it was decided that it is part and parcel of the infrastructure and of course when we look at the details, now if we were not to have certain kind of funding, certain model, then the fare would be high.

So that in the case it was considered that the passengers service charge, a portion of the passenger's service charge should be assigned or given to ERL.
Otherwise, the viability of the project would become very difficult.

So, we considered part and parcel of the infrastructure... Tuan Pengerusl: So, it's like a subsidy lah?

Datuk Serl Long See Wool: No, we never... Tuan Pengerusl: Subsidy taken up from the passengers service charge... Datuk Serl Long See Wool: ...We did not use the term subsidy.

It is- it's a funding.


Tuan Pengerusl: [Ketawa] Datuk Serl Long See Wool: It is a funding of it because otherwise then if you were to charge it RM40 a fare- you know that would be- and we see the benefit of the ERL because of the guarantee journey time... Tuan Pengerusi: No Datuk.

I agree with you.

Datuk Serl Long See Wool: Ya.


Tuan Pengerusl: All I am saying is we are trying to narrow down all the financial procedures- we going to employed in basically proving this project and then later on you know during running the project.
So that's why I asked you the questions just now about you know shareholder, Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara / BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 11 how much the funding is and now about this payment which actually taken out from the passengers service charge.

The amount is RM5 if I am not mistaken.

Is it correct?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: RM5.

Tuan Pengerusi: RM5 kan?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: RM5 for international... [Disampuk] RM1 fordomestic.

Tuan Pengerusi: RM1 for domestic.


And this is actually to us as a layman we think of it as a subsidy lah.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Whatever terms Sir you may wish to term it.

Tuan Pengerusi: Because you said there is a short form and funding ... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ya, short form and funding ... Tuan Pengerusi: And therefore why shouldn 't the government apply for their money in the bUdget to pay for this?

So in a way you are asking passengers at the KLlA.


.. Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Passengers?

Tuan Pengerusi: To pay for it through... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So, it become... Tuan Pengerusi: ...MAHB.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: ...Become part of the user fee.

Tuan Pengerusi: Through MAHB.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Va. Tuan Pengerusi: That's why because outside there, people think it's a payment in excess of the cost to help fund the ERL.

You get what I mean?


Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ya, but you see Yang Berhormat, that's why I need also to inform you.

When we restructure the concession, the agreement with MAHB, that part of- it is not considered they pay anymore.

When we restructured I can't remember which year.

So, that part we government look at it as a whole and whatever money that paid to ERL, concession payment minus that.

So, they are not in a way losing out.


Katakan RM30, bukan RM1 itu it become part of the kita ambil, dia rugi RM1 itu.

The RM1 is actually paid back to them through the concession punya restructuring.

In 2009.

Tuan Pengerusi: So, from negatively impacting them, then you restore back their concession ... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So, dia tidak boleh cakap dia yang fund ini lah.

Tuan Pengerusi: Oh, okay.


Another question- yang the passenger itu that time kan, those people who go to LCCT which is not connected to KLiA kan, did that money also was taken up from their passengers service charge to pay for the ERL.?

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNagara / BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 12 Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Yes.

It's the overall... Tuan Pengerusi: Overall figure... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: '" Total departing passengers.

Tuan Pengerusi: ...Total departing passengers.


You see there is another issue with us also because than rather there is no accruals I mean if you use in our financial records.

You know should be only those who using KLJA.

.. Datuk Seri Long See Wool: But you see Yang Berhormat, as I mentioned in 2009, when we restructured the agreement, it is no longer partly but it becomes it's plowed back to the entire concession- minus that amount.

Tuan Pengerusi: But going forward.


But whatever money that was already been collected, it's not plowed back lah in a sense.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ya.

Tuan Pengerusi: It's not taken back from ERL lah?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So, moving forward is- no, no.

We don't take back.

Tuan Pengerusi: But that means the ERL took the money from 2002 to 2009 lah.

Seven years lah?

Worth of money collector from passengers using the LCCT.

These days also received lah?


Even though... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ya but Yang Berhormat... Yang Berhormat... Tuan Pengerusi: ...Their passengers don't use the ERL.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: ...1 need to inform you this also.

You see LCCT was at that point when we built KLJA, LCCT was never something that - LCCT was constructed to cater for the growth of the low cost carrier.

So, when this happen- what happen was there was a disconnect between ERL that they not link to the LCCT ya.
I think for that reason they lost quiet lot of passenger.

There was quiet a tremendous drop in their passenger volume as forecasted because it was out of a new development ya?

Now what they have done is when the train stops in Salak Tinggi, they provide free shuttle bus to LCCT.

They did not charge anything on that bus services that connect to ERL services to the LCCT.

So, in that sense they have also contributed to ferrying the passengers, free of charge.

Because there is no rail link to the LCCT.


Tuan Pengerusi: To be clear, in a way ERL also basically provided free bus shuttle service from Salak Tinggi to LCCT to basically... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Through and through... Laporan Prosiding JK Kirs-kira Wang Negars /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 13 Tuan Pengerusl: ...Take care of the passenger flow from LCCT to the ERL lah, instead of stopping in KLIA itself.

It's not free lah.
It's not free lah.

It's actually that money that passenger's service charge for the LCCT actually justify... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: If you put two into together... Tuan Pengerusi: ...To basically find that... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Va. Tuan Pengerusl: No, Datuk.

You have to put... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: [Ketawa] Tuan Pengerusl: You have no, no.

We just try to relate all these costing, expenditure, revenues to the actual project itself.
This is basically to erase any perception of you know unfair charges or payments to ERL which up actually not- for services not borne by them lah.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Va. Tuan Pengerusi: So, in a way what you're saying today is passengers chargers lepas PSG PAC for LCCT was actually contributing to the shuttle bus service that was provided by ERL from Salak Tinggi ERL station to LCCT.

Is it fair by my statement?

.1150 Datuk Serl Long See Wool: Va. Tuan Pengerusi: Okey Datuk, thank you .
Data' Kamarudin Jaffar: Soalan ringkas sahaja, saya tanya satu soalan sahaja Datuk.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Va, ya.

Data' Kamarudln Jaffar: Setakat ini, ERL Sdn.

Bhd.

ada buat keuntungan atau masih rugi lagi?

As the company are making profit or... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Details we'll give but you see what happen is as in most of the concession there is a forecast.
At best you can give is only a forecast but certain development toot place when ERL started the operation, until today, I think there is quiet a bit of shortfall.

I think the shortfall is- if you look at the forecast, original forecast, there is a shortfall of even close to 60 percent of the passenger volume.

There a number reason for it.

Now, one reason was that the government gives permission to bus company to operate bus services linking KL Sentral to KLiA.
So that has eroded the volume because situ kalau you naik bas, sampai hari ini pun saya ingat RM10.

That eroded.

Secondly when KLIA was constructed, it was a total shift of passenger from Subang to KLIA but what happened is that we reopened Subang for smaller aircraft.

You see FireFly operated from there and recently that eroded.

Tuan Pengerusi: I agree with that.

Make it easy for me to take a flight domestically.


Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Nagara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 14 Datuk Seri Long See Wool: to talk about SAA because SAA everybody suffered but the recent event that took place I also the Maju Express.

It has also cenein adverse I don't want impact on the volumes.

For all this, we must take into account.

But in spite of that, the fare has not move because it's all under the concessions.
They have actually requested but it was agreed that there will be no adjustment of fare.

They understand the informers, they make operating profit but if they want to take into account, the development cost capacity and all the rest.

That's why they have to restructure, because to me is a private anything anyway.

They have to restructure the loan with Bank Pembangunan dan juga with the German bank.
Tuan Pengerusi: What you saying the contributing factor to government deciding to fund the extension is because they can't do it.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: They can't do it.

Tuan Pengerusi: So the government has to pay for it.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So we have to come in.

I think that was the basis.


Tuan Pengerusi: And the reason why they are in the shorlfall in term of their concession agreement is because government is allowed alternative transporlation to the eirport and then reopen Subang and at the same time don't allow them fare increase over ... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Adjust.

Tuan Pengerusi: Oh ya, since operation starled.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Since they starled operation.

Tuan Pengerusi: Okey, all right.

Dato' Abd.


Aziz Sheikh Fadzlr: Datuk, cuma nak tanya, dia ada unjuran tak how many passengers sejak KLIA ini yang will continue paying for the five dollar and one dollar.

Do we have got maximum numbers when your reached that the government don't has to pay anymore.

Datuk Serl Long See Wool: Well, you see the agreement is dynamic.

For instant I think it is time for us to re-Iook at the concessions as such.
And there also time for us to- because they have to also invest more money because passenger volume has move.

They have to buy new train which they have indicated to us that is the plan to do so.

Now but whether they want, they were request for early look at the agreement is something that has no come to us but this something that we think it will come and of course with that also YB., I just want to inform you that when one of the thing that we look at is the high-speed rail to Singapore .
One of the considerations is because to find the new corridor is going to be very difficult for the high-speed train.

There is a possibility which I don't want to confirm that we may have to share the corridor and share the track with them.

So if that happens, we would have to re-Iook at the present concessions.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 15 Dato' Abd.
Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: What the current concessions say, government have to pay five dollars and then they were has to charge 35 dollars until what stage?

Because kita, we give a lot restructuring of... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Now YB., just to look at pure concession alone.

There is not only particular provision to allow them to adjust the fare, that's one.

Even the present service charge also there were suppose to from that original RM1 and RM6, there were suppose to be also adjustment.
In fact, if you go purely by the concession agreement, the passenger's service charge should also move but that is has not move.

We did not approve the adjustment, so it was kept at that.

So as long as the concession remain as long as they do not reach a certain threshold, it will difficult for us to review the charge.

Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: ...Apakah kebaikan this image public?
What can we all know that there are 25 million passengers at the airport there will be five dollar or whatever one dollar additional paid to the concessionaire and then they save five dollar there.

If keunjuran meningkat, what are the- otherwise public, dia speculate macam-macam.

The second one, you are saying that even ERL just make operating profit.

We are doing a bit time restructuring our public transportation- the MRT, Rapid, PLUS Highway.
What do the government looking at even the part of Prasarana ke rather than we are just continue relying on this private that we got to bend over so many things just to make it good.

The government has thinking along the line since you are doing a big time reconstruction.... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I am afraid I am not in the position to comment on that at this point of time- my apology.

Tuan Pengerusi: Datuk, come back to your question about sharing the track.
Surely the track is own by the government, kan?

It just like you give concession to MAHB to run the airport for five years.

MAHB is given a sign aright too basically to do whatever with the land with the government punya agreementlah but the land ownership is still with the government.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: It is a, because for that period of 30 years, they have the right over the land.
Tuan Pengerusi: No, no but listen, in and any other property assignment, right assignment is always the landlord is still remaining the same.

The landlord is the final say depending on what the landlord sign away.

I hope the government is not resigning away total right for the land for 25 years for ERL, in 50 years , you buatlah apa you nak suka dengan tanah itu Iepas itu we can 't say a thing.

I hope the government not doing that.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, no.


Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNagara / Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9 .2014 16 Yuan Pengerusi: Because even the track pun, the land on the track, the land where the track is, is actuallygovernment's, it's a BOT.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Finallythe land belong to the crown.

Yuan Pengerusi: No, no.

The lands always belong to the government.

It is you assign the rights to use the land.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ya, the rights was assign to them for particularlyperiod.
Yuan Pengerusi: But you do not assign over everything to the concessionaire because that will be a PAC issue becauseyou know if you are signing that ... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, even like the case of like the land what was leased to MAHB for a certain period, now there is a very clear clause to say that in the event the government requires the land for whatever purpose especially for public purpose, the government has a right to the land.
But of course in doing so, there are other provision instituted to protect the company and such.

Yuan Pengerusi: For example, you know if you assign the land and then you take a loan with the bank, you don't perform, the bank can take over the land and the government is powerless you know to basically prevented from happening.

Even first P&P right, the bank can go sell to somebody else.
If this is happening then you know PAC should look at these issues as you know... • 1200 Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, no is not... [Ketawa] Yuan Pengerusi: No, I mean your kementerian.

If ada kementerian, if other privatization, if ada this assignmenton this land especiallythis is something which we concern a lot.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: There are very clear condition to protects the government and so many other kepentingan kerajaan memang ada.
Yuan Pengerusi: Itulah it depends operating list or it's a finance list or you know and then for example if you want to sign away land use rights all this things are very-very important.

You know why Yang Berhormat Datuk, you wont is taking this issue lah.

But future KSU we have to tackle this issue.

Accrual accounting how you very access on the book you says this is my land but then the economic benefit, economic use of the land you are already sign with somebody else.
So actually the value that you state in your book is not the actual economic value that accountantwas take when there are what ever value in the land.
I think this PAC issue looks in to also whether there other ministries are- I'm I assume the tough ministry is a high standard of... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, no this is not a concession done by us alone it was done in the committee which the AG, the Treasury everybody, Federal Land Commissioner... LapOfan Prosiding JK Kifa-kifa Wang Negafa /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 17 Tuan Pengerusi: Under cash accounting what we call it by policies.
Under accruals accounting is a different thing because you actually have to estimate the accurate value the land when you are doing your valuation or doing you're costing.

No, no but EPU is smiling only ... [Ketawa] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Okey Sir, if I may on the RM2 I think the issue is actually is RM2.

We allowed them to charge the RM2 because there is the maintenance and the operating cost of the track for that stretch of the track work.
Just to inform you Tuan Pengerusi in fact passengers have alternative that means passengers kalau hendak bergerak kalau sesiapa pekerja yang hendak bergerak di antara terminal in terminal building dengan KLlA2 mereka ada pilihan.

Yang sekarang ini kalau mereka naik KLiA punya limo, there are charge about RM33.

Taxi is about RM6 to go from one terminal to another.
And of course beside punya ERL punya RM2, MAS pun dia ada punya shuttle bas yang gerak di antara the 2 terminal from the long term car park which is free of charge.

So passenger has a choice.

But as their forecast in fact was about passenger about 1,500 satu hari but we found that the services are quit well patronize, carrying about 3,000 daily.

Tuan Pengerusi: The passengers originate from KLlA2, there pick up less passenger from KLlA1.
Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ermm... Tuan Pengerusi: I'm quit surprise I just came back yesterday.

The train was already half full at KLlA2 then come to KLIA 1 just pick up another few passengers.

In fact volume KLIA 1 is drop since KLlA2 open... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ya.

Dr. Tan Seng Giaw [Kepong]: Mr. Chairman ... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: The sound the passenger divide among the terminal.

Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: Mr. Chairman, I'm a regular user this ERL.
Now because so many passengers at KLlA2 so we get of we usually use MAS whether the problem it is.

So we get of at KLIA1 now we want to go to KL Sentral you have to take it because we don't then the- we have to go to KLlA2.

So that if we come back you know you still have are seat.

You get the problem, this problem, right now?

.. Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Or you mean the ... Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: Yes, yes.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: The rider ship is high.


So passenger kalau hendak guarantee seat itu, dia pergi turun bawah dulu naik macam Kelana Jaya dengan ... Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: That is what we have to.. .

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Yang satu stesen LRT di Petaling Jayalah .

LBporBn Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang NegarB / Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 18 Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: Va.

Whether you pay RM2 or not, I don't know whether you just go in and go back.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: How do you control?


Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: Va, can we think of over coming back its are- because as you say... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So if are passengers the fare is RM35.

Kalau dia mahu guarantee seat, kalau dia hendak buat begitu dia kena bayar RM2 turun ke bawah dulu.

Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: No, no, no.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No?

Puan Noormah binti Mohd.

Noor: {Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suaraj Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Oh I see, I see.
Data' Kamarudin bin Jaffar: You have to pay the same ticket to KLlA2, then ... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Dia mahu guarantee seat lah, saya faham.

Data' Kamarudin bin Jaffar: You just get down to figure up ... Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: That's right, that's right.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: {Ketawaj But kalau dia hendak kenakan caj pun nanti jadi satu isu pula.

So Yang Berhormat if I may go to the next slide so this table shows the actual rider ship from May sampai bulan Ogos.

So is averaging about 3,000 daily.


So if we go to calculate based on this so there would collect about 2 point something million dollars.

If we compare to the operating and the maintenance cost there is still a short for which there will have to bear the balance with.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Yang Berhormat Datuk, I think this is very-very unfair misleading where of comparing between the revenue collected to the operational maintenance.
I like to know the rider ship that has increase from Sentral or other stop to KLlA2 compare to the past I think there is no such additional revenue as result that.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Va, ya.

So we agree with you.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: So what would be the rider ship beside?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I think the rider ship since connectivity with the KLlA2 the rider ship has quiet a bit.
I do not have the figures on slide ... Tuan Pengerusi: If this provide because that is the perception amongst the people today... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Va. Tuan Pengerusi: That you know that RM2 if the rider ship to KLlA2 because your connecting ERL to KLlA2 now you know don't have a high raise in your rider ship say eve/}' month you take a 50,000 people you know even more than that ya.

Even more than that so you can recover your cost of the RM100 million on one year.
But the money doesn't go to the government there goes to the ERL.

Many perception because we move from the LCCT to KLlA2 so it is not your fault its just Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Nagara / Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 19 are you know a matter of logistical change.

But then because of that the rider ship goes up and you collect more money and people find it more convenient to use the ERL than to use the bus now.

Data' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: We have the numbers increase rider ship May to now.
What is the number here?

[Ahli-ahli berbincang sesama sendiri] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Yang Berhormat we have a statistic which I can give you detail in writing.

Basically the rider ship since the connectivity to KLlA2 the KLIA Sentral we put out of together has gone up to close to 28%.

• 1210 The number for that month- so what they have done before, from January to April used to be 5,900 daily.

In month from May until September, it is going up to 8,793.
So they have to minus the two point punya transit.

You are talking about KLIA to KL vise versa, so the figure is about 28% increased for total.

We will give the figure then quite clearly show percentage increase minus the inter-terminal traffic.I think that is the last slide.

Next please.

Terima kasih.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Just a quick of the back of the hand calculation based on 28% increased, assume 2,500 passengers that increased per day.

I think is about 2,800, but I just count 2,500.


Assume the fares is about RM30 average times 2,500 times 30 days a month times 12 months a year then give you RM27 million in terms of revenue from this KLlA2 opening and increased.

So your operational cost is not included.

I think based on their numbers is included.

So, RM27 million versus the operational costs to ERL is about RM3 million plus.

It is a lot.

So, plus the additional RM2 million for the RM2.


So that is not RM30 million collected for the RM3 million.

That is a fairly disadvantage for ... Tuan Pengerusi: Billion or million?

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Billion because they are saying that ERL operational cost due the increase.

The new opening is about RM3 million, RM3.14 million.

Then RM2 collected is already RM2 million.

But due to increase passengers, it is approximately RM27 million.
So they are getting about RM30 million for RM3 million operational.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Understand.

Understand Sir.

If you clearly look at that extension and the positive effect of the extension but then we will also give the figure earlier.

If you remember I mentioned to you, the actual traffics achieved based on the number of negative factors I mentioned to you earlier, they have lost traffic before.

Now they able capture back traffic ... Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: No.
In the concession agreement, did we guaranty traffic to ERL?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kiraWangNegara/ Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 20 Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Then what... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: But we have to be mindful the fact that the forecasted and this all hard figures.

Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: Tidak mengapa Oatuk, tetapi it is not fair.
It is really not fair for you to come to this meeting give us that figures that giving the impression that actually ERL is losing RM1 mil/ion, cannot even cover the maintenances because of the additional RM2.

You know for the fact that you have already got RM2 thousand increment.

Total overall is actually has help ERL more.

Give us the right figure.

You know what I mean?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No.

I am not hiding any figures Yang Berhormat because .. .

Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: No.


It is not hiding, it is insulting the intelligent.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: What also I mentioned earlier that the forecasted punya itu there is tremendous short fall.

What they are doing now is actually recovering ... Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzlr: Datuk, saya faham Datuk.

Cuma saya katakan tadi, Datuk datang sini, Oatuk beri satu slaid terang RM2 ini memberi kerugian kepada ERL RM1 juta.

RM2 juta maintenances, collection RM1 million.


Akan tetapi hakikatnya, kita semua tahu bahawa kerana extension daripada KLiA ke KLlA2, kalaulah Yang Berhormat Petaling Jaya Utara punya numbers betul, memberi peningkatan hampir RM30 juta.

Adakah adil statement begitu dibentangkan kepada kita?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: But I went further to explain there are such from vel}' beginning ... Dato' Abd.
Aziz Sheikh Fadzlr: I am just asking you about that statement... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: If you look at the total figure .. .

Tuan Pengerusi: I think what you tl}'ing to do is to help ERL to catch up on the previous expectation.

That is a fair statement.

Akan tetapi itulah, for us a contract when you signed is caveat emptor supaya you be aware bukan... [Ketawa] Mana ada customer yang sign kontrak dia sudah on the losing and seller tolong pula.
That is what I think what Yang Berhormat Kulim Bandar Baharu is saying because justification that was used to charge RM2 was because you kata ERL is losing money now.

That is why we need to charge RM2.

Akan tetapi because you charge RM2, suddenly the money that comes in is way above what we needed and it helps ERL to basically crawl back the lost revenue from many years ago, from previous years.
Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Va. Tuan Pengerusi: I think that is what Yang Berhormat Kulim-Bandar Baharu is tl}'ing to .. .

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Put it in the overall perspective.

Laporan ProsidingJK Kira-kiraWangNegara / Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 21 Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: Datuk, we are here to actually understand and help.

I am really sure that the government will not make a decision that coming from no where.
They have the basis, they have the reason, they have the forecast, got the contract tetapi we all masih in a very clear mind that this is mean for what.

Macam tadilah, statement begitu is uncalled for.

You know, it is uncalled for ... [AhIi-ahli berbincang sesama sendiri] Tuan Pengerusi: Jangan marah Datuk.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Saya terima.

Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: Akan tetapi Datuk, saya juga pengguna sekurang kurangnya enam kali sebulan ERL ini.
Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Then you benefit from everyone else who don't use it and pay the subsidy for it .. .

[Ketawa] Tuan Pengerusi: This is very honest opinion from PAC Members.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Understand.

Tuan Pengerusi: It is because we just reflecting what the rakyat think.

If you answer the question well, then there will be on report and then to me that is end of the matter.

Rakyat should be understanding on what actually transpired and what you are actually doing.

Any others question?


Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Okey ada.

Trying to understand the earlier discussion, I did not want to interject because saya hendak berikan peluang untuk habiskan taklimat.

On the subcontract, the contractor for the project is SPYTL.

What is the syarikat?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Sorry?

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Nama kontraktor bagi projek ini.

SPYTL dengan Seri Yakin.

So what is SPYTL?...

[Disampuk] Syarikat Pembinaan YTL.


So it is joint venture antara Syarikat Pembinaan YTL dan Seri Yakin.

Can I say that the direct award to SPYTL and Seri Yakin is that should still have been regardless of the advantageous that you mentioned earlier, they build the previous project, they have the knowledge, they maybe faster.
It would have been better for the Ministry to enforce tender and only the evaluation process give the advantage to SPYTL assuming the cost is the same and SPYTL after all more experienced party then giving them the contract as oppose to allowing the direct nego to SPYTL and Seri Yakin.

SPYTL obviously interested party because they are the major shareholder of ERL.
.1220 But even Seri Yakin, both directors of Seri Yakin are directors in YTL Group of companies and they are also key shareholders in YTL Land of development.

So, it is actually the whole JV is YTL.

The owner of Seri Yakin is the people who have been with Tan Sri Yeoh from the first IPP days, Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 22 1994.

So they are basically the YTL family.

Our fear is that we lost twice.


We pay for it, already we are funding ERL and we are paying at higher price to the owners of ERL via the construction contract.

Datuk Serl Long See Wool: The conclusion, I mean this is the wisdom of PAC.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: No, no.

I think it is important to answer because is there basis for the ministry are getting a better deal if we have required ERL to have an open tender?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: It is a decision of the government.

They justify it.
They justify it.

We found that the justification was there for that to be done as long as it does not the total grant .. .

Tuan Pengerusi: Curna Datuk, the comparison is not there.

That is why I mentioned about.

This is contract ... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: .. .Did not do the contract.

Tuan Pengerusi: This contract is direct award or direct selection and then only you nego.

Because if that is direct nego, that's mean you set the terms and then you nego.
This one you select the company, and then you nego.

There are two different things and then also there is conflict of interest because it is the same people ... [Disampuk] So, this conflict of interest and also the direct selection of the contractor, and then only after that you negotiate the terms.

Raises these two issues, one, conflict of interest between shareholders and another conflict of interest between price negotiation.
You kata tadi rnernang ada value management exercise and then because of the value management exercise, the cost have been reduced.

Akan tetapi there is no comparison for us to basically put a benchmark to.

That is the issue.

Data' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara] Tuan Pengerusi: I also understand it's unfair for you to answer the question because you come from the Transportation Ministry.

The issue can be better answered by the EPU and MoF... [Disampuk] Oh!
EPU push a statement now.

[Ketawa] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I would not ... Tuan Pengerusi: So MoF, wakil MoF.

Apa jawapan you?

Encik Suhaili bin Ahmad rfimbalan Setiausaha Sahagian (Strategik)]: Saya pun tidak ada faktanya Tuan Pengerusi, tetapi dalarn kes untuk pernberian tender secara rundingan terus, dibenarkan untuk dalarn tiga keadaan.

Pertamanya, emergency, antara hidup atau mati punya isu.

Keduanya, pernbekal tunggal.

Maknanya the only supplier.

Ketiganya adalah berkelasan.


Kita tidak hendak berkeJasan .

Akan tetapi untuk sebelum ini kita tidak pasti sarna ada kontraktornya adalah yang sarna dengan yang buat extension itu... [Disampuk] Same.

Not owner but that contractor.

Tuan Pengerusi: Kontraktorlah.

Kontraktor company itu owner dia sarna.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Kontraktor sarna bukan from the initial project?

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNegara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 23 Seorang Ahli: Yes.
Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Kontraktor sarna.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I think it is the same.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Seperti extension of ERL, bukan ERL, LRT yang telah pun dibuat dan ditawarkan.

Phase 2 pun tender terbuka walaupun ada kontraktor asal.

la tender terbuka sebab sistem ini bukan sistem tunggal yang satu kontraktor sahaja boleh buat.

Dato' Abd.
Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: ...Alasan sarna yang berkali-kali saya dengar daripada semua kementerian, projek ini projek mesti disiapkan dengan cepat, dipanggil fast track.

Itulah alasan, saya tolong kementerian untuk jawab soalan ini.

Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: Tuan Pengerusi.


.. Tuan Pengerusi: Datuk, you boleh tutup mic you kalau you tidak mahu jawab... [Ketawa] Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: Tuan Pengerusi, PAC menjadi satu sambungan kepada Parlimen dan pada pagi ini kita terpaksa panggil kementerian supaya kita dapat maklumat yang lebih tepat untuk di bentang sebagai laporan kepada Dewan.

Di sini, you know you got this business of extending 30 years to finance the RM100 millions.
From the ministry point of view, it is justifiable for RM100 million we extend the rights for 30 more years?

.. [Disampuk] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, we did not extend.

There were two options.

One, is that they finance it.

We extend the concession period.

So we decided ... [Disampuk] No, no.

To extend another 30 years, we did not want to do it.

Tuan Pengerusi: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Tidak mengapa.

Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: Macam mana bangun tidur.


Saya hendak... [Ketawa] Masalah Tuan Pengerusi ini, dia serong sedikit fikiran .

Tuan Pengerusi: Okeylah.

Jadi timbul isu mengenai conflict of interest yang saya rasa kita boleh pertimbangkan kemudian .

Datuk pun tidak ada kapasiti untuk menjawab soalan ini fasal dia sebenarnya bawah MOF.

EPU pun cuci tangan juga .

Sepatutnya EPU anggap ini sebagai lanjutan projek ERL.
... [Ketawa] Akan tetapi nampaknya untuk yang original you ambil tanggungjawab tetapi yang extension ini you cuci.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Tidak apa, same minister.

Tuan Pengerusi: Because these issues going to pop up in the HSR.

How it is going to be decided, you know whether you decide the person first and then you negotiate apa semua.

But it is good lesson for us to basically learn from this but overall, ERL Puan Noormah ya?
Untuk saya, you have done a good job cuma sekarang ini masalah you pula is too good a job.

Fasal apa?

Sudah bertambah passengers, tambah problem pula untuk hendak bawa passenger tersebut.

Good Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 24 problem for you but not good problem for PAC.

You have to basically highlight this issue about the company itself and why the government supporting it.

Any other question?

.. Wakil-wakil kementerian?

.. Tidak ada ya.


Saya cuma hendak tambah sedikit sahaja Datuk.

My last question yang I peliklah.

KLiA punya ERL, you lalu bawah, naik elevator terus pergi kaunter, terus masuk dalam.

KLlA2, you keluar stesen, masuk shopping center, masuk shopping center lagi, selepas itu baru sampai tiket, selepas itu baru pergi Imigresen, selepas itu jalan lagi masuk shopping center lagi, selepas itu baru sampai gate.
Jauh itu... [Disampuk] Jadi untuk saya, it is opportunity wasted that ERL should actually be connecting closer to the disembarkation into the ticket side, the Immigration side instead of been placed about- ini saya kira ini fasal sebelum Hearing ini, saya sengaja pergi luar negeri ini untuk hendak... Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Let me tells you.

Tuan Pengerusi: ...Try ERL dengan KLlA2 sekali lagi.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Let me tells you, it worst for buses.
Tuan Pengerusi: It was... Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: It worst for buses.

Lebih jauh lagi for buses.

Tuan Pengerusi: Bas tambah lagi jauh.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: For public transport users ... Tuan Pengerusi: Itu sebab Datuk, saya dalam isu ini saya rasa banyak juga peluang yang telah disia-siakan dalam pembinaan infrastruktur ini- especially for KLlA2.

You should make it easier than to transfer between terminal dan sebagainya, it becomes more complicated.
That is my last comment before we move on into MAHB punya issue lah... Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: Tuan Pengerusi, saya sudah bincang dengan setiausaha agung tadi, dia... [Disampuk] Masalah sekarang ini... [Ketawa] Bolehkah kita kaji semula macam mana kita bantu penumpang untuk sampai ke tempat berlepas dan sebagainya kerana ini menjadi KLiA shopping mall and airport.

Kalau kita letak itu airport sahaja itu tidak cukup.

KLIA Mall and Airport.

Tuan Pengerusi: Tidak apa kami beritahu.


Dr. Tan Seng Giaw: Tidak apalah, tidak apalah jadi kita kaji macam mana kita boleh memudahkan penumpang.

Tuan Pengerusi: Soalan lain?

Dato' Kamarudin bin Jaffar: Maksudnya saya pun bersetuju walaupun saya rasa benda ini penting.

Saya yakin KLiA mesti dipasang walka/ators yang lebih banyak lagi untuk memudahkan passenger yang hanya ingin naik kapal terbang.
Dia tidak berhajat hendak berhenti minum kah, dia Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negaf8 /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 25 hendak ambil boarding pass and want to go straight to his gate or her gate, I think you have to install many more walkalators including in the shopping areas so that yang tidak mahu membeli-belah boleh sahaja itu.

Tuan Pengerusi: Okey lepas ini pun turn MAHB pula, Jadi hendak tukar bench ini jadi ERL side bench, MAHB pula jadi front bench.
Jadi kalau tidak ada soalan lagi mengenai ERL, boleh kita tamatkan prosiding fasal ERL.

Saya ucapkan terima kasih kepada Datuk Seri dan juga kepada pasukan Datuk Seri.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Terima kasih.

Tuan Pengerusi: Sekarang kita pergi kepada MAHB pula ya.

Kalau Puan Noormah hendak duduk dekat depan hendak jawab soalan MAHB boleh juga... [Ketawa] Puan Noormah bintl Mohd Noor: Okay, thank you vel}' much Tuan Pengerusi, Yang Berhormat-Yang Berhormat semua.

Terima kasih banyak-banyak.


Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So you want now MAHB.

Tuan Pengerusi: KLlA2.

Just our additional question before we close the report.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Alright.

Tuan Pengerusi: Okey MAHB hendak ke depan atau ini?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid you hendak ke depan or you want to sit there?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd Ali: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara] Tuan Pengerusi: Okey, Dato' Abd.

Hamid hendak duduk di tepi... [Ketawa] Datuk kenapa Datuk?
Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Sila, duduk sini.

You duduk sana or duduk sini kena jawab juga.

Baik duduk sini.

Tuan Pengerusi: Apa ini kita pun tadi hendak tunggu-tunggu juga kedatangan CEO baru MAHB... [Ketawa] Akan tetapi Dato' Abd.

Hamid ada tidak apalah.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid familiar.

Okey, Datuk tanpa melengahkan masa lagi kita pergi kepada MAHB pula.

Sebenarnya ini peluang kepada kita hendak bertanyakan soalan fasal sudah tidak ada lagi taklimat.
Bagi kita tanya dahulu soalan selepas itu MAHB boleh jawab.

Jadi saya bukalah kepada Jawatankuasa kalau ada apa-apa soalan tambahan lagi hendak tanya kepada MAHB.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Satu soalan ke satu soalan kah atau you want all the question then answer together.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Sorl}' we did not know what the issue so we didn't prepare any slide.

Minta maaf.
Minta maaf.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 26 Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: So, the only thing is the approach, whether you want one by one or you want one-by-one.

Number one would be is there any final cost update for KLlA2.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: At the moment now, we still add RM4 billion.


So the contractor have submitted some claims which yet to be subtracted with the document and we are still reviewing it and we also have some counter claim on them as well.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: What is the claim from the contractor like?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: About RM300 million.

Tuan Pengerusi: RM300 million on reopening issues?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: Whatever additional work that they interpreted as require.
Tuan Pengerusi: Re or post or pre-opening.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Contractor putting a claim on the project.

Tuan Pengerusi: On the project itself.

But the post opening they have not submitted any claims yet.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: That is for post opening lah itu.

Tuan Pengerusi: No, no, no.

Meaning your account has been not close yet.

Now the claim has been made dated before opening of the airport.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: Yes.


Tuan Pengerusi: They have been no claims that have been made dated after the opening of the airport.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: No.

Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: Relating to the soalan daripada Tuan Pengerusi, apakah kos yang dikenakan akibat penyempurnaan yang perlu dibuat selepas pembukaan airport.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: Banyak kerja yang tidak dapat disiapkan oleh kontraktor berasaskan kepada kemampuan mereka.
Kami telah engaged third party untuk menyiapkan kerja kerja tersebut dan berasaskan kepada kontrak, kos-kos yang terlibat oleh third party ini akan dipotong terhadap apa juga kontrak yang masih belum berbayar kepada kontraktor.

Jadi for the time ini sedang berjalanlah.

Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: So, sepatutnya kos-kos penyempurnaan ini tidak akan menyebabkan kos pembinaan airport ini meningkatlah sebab akan ditolak daripada kontrak asal tadi.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Ditolak kontrak asal.


Cuma kemungkinan kita menuntut prolongation cost, variation of price, itu di luar kontraklah.

Itu memakan masa untuk dikaji.

Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: Itu claim lebih kurang RM300 jutalah.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: Lebih kurang.

Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: Apakah status LAD buat masa ini?

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Nagara / BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 27 Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Masih berkuat kuasa.


Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Adakah capability figure and is there status dari sudut sarna ada mereka akan bayar, mereka akur, mereka challenge?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Mereka sedang challenge kita.

Kita minta maklumat terhadap justifikasi tersebut di mana mereka masih belum dapat mengumpulkan justifikasi-justifikasi kenapa mereka tidak boleh dikenakan LAD.

Kita bagi peluang kepada dia.


Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Buat masa ini MAHB tegas bahawa LAD akan dikenakan terhadap pihak kontraktor .

Saya dengar daripada laporan media bahawa retakan masih berlaku di kawasan apron.

Kerja-kerja ratifikasi terpaksa dijalankan tanpa henti dan ada lsu-lsu yang mungkin lebih serius lagi telah pun bangkit dan menyebabkan banyak bay terpaksa ditutup dan kerja-kerja penyelenggaraan perlu dibuat secara almost relatively massive skill.

Apakah status laporan terhadap isu itu?


Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Keretakan yang berlaku adalah disebabkan oleh differential settlement kerana KLlA2 dibina di kawasan tanah gambut.

Jadi semasa kerja-kerja tanah dijalankan kita telah anticipate that there will be long term settlement because of the method that we choose to consolidate the soil.

There will be about 20% of the reschedule settlement would will happened between now until 20 or 30 years depending on the rate of settlement.
Jadi bagi kawasan yang tidak ada struktur-struktur maka settlement tidak terasa kerana dia equal settlement.

Semua mendap serentak.

• 1240 Akan tetapi bagi kawasan apron disebabkan oleh kita ada drain, kita ada paip, culvert dan paip minyak, paip-paip ini kita letakkan di atas struktur.

Kita pile ia supaya ia tidak patah sekiranya ia mendap.

Jadi, apabila tanah sekitar kawasan tersebut mendap, kawasan yang di pile ini tidak mendap.

Jadi, berlakulah differentiate settlement.


Antara kawasan yang di pile ini dengan kawasan yang tidak di pile, ia berlaku retak di situ.

Jadi, ia tidak membahayakan kerana ianya adalah reflective cracking .

Sebabnya pergerakan.

Jadi apa yang perlu adalah menurap atas permukaan yang depress tersebut.

Jadi, perkara ini telah kami buat semenjak KLiA dibuka lagi.

Kita sudah lantik term contractor untuk mengendalikan mana juga kerja-kerja pembaikan yang perlu dilaksanakan dan ianya berterusan .
Kita dapati yang depression ini antara 1 hingga 1.5 inci sahaja.

Jadi kawasannya luas sebab itu kalau dalam gambar nampak macam kolam besar.

Sebenarnya tidak.

Airnya cetek sahaja.

Jadi, sekiranya ianya mencapai dalam tiga inci, barulah kita akan mengambil langkah untuk menurap keseluruhan tersebut.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 28 Kita tidak boleh turap setengah inci pun kita turap.

la tidak ekonomi.
la tidak ekonomi.

Apa yang kita perlu adalah sedut saja air tersebut, itu sahaja yang perlu dibuatkan.

Setakat ini kita telah belanja lebih kurang dalam RM2 juta- menurap, membaiki kawasan-kawasan yang tersebut.

Kita ada 68 bay, ada 72 kesemuanya.

Jadi, ianya tidak akan mengganggu dari segi operasi.

Cuma yang berlaku baru-baru ini adalah berkenaan dengan paip minyak Petronas yang berlaku kebocoran.
Hasil kajian yang dibuat terhadap keseluruhan kawasan tersebut, bay K2 mengalami masalah disebabkan oleh welding joint.

Jadi, kerja-kerja pembaikan sedang dijalankan dan pada penghujung bulan Oktober, ianya siap akan boleh diguna pakai.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Akan tetapi mengenai isu kebocoran the fuel paip itu, adakah ia berkaitan dengan retakan yang telah berlaku di kawasan tersebut akibat naik turun, paip pecah?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Tidak.


Daripada kajian yang dibuat, pertama sekali ialah keseluruhan paip Petronas diletak di atas cerucuk.

Dia pile, kemudian dia buat slab then diletakkan paip itu di atas slab tersebut.

Daripada scanning yang dibuat, kita dapati yang welding dia menghadapi masalah.

Jadi minyak tersebut keluar melalui welding tersebut.

Jadi bukan disebabkan oleh pergerakan tanah dan sebagainya.

Ini kerana paip tersebut terletak kukuh di atas slab yang di support oleh piles.
Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Haji Habibollah [Limbang]: Siapa yang buat scanning?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Va?

Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Haji Habibollah: Siapa yang buat scanning?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Petronas.

Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Haji Habibollah: Petronas sendiri ya?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Va. Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Haji Habibollah: Jadi, mereka mengaku memang problem dengan welding mereka lah.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Welding ya.


Tuan Pengerusi: Okey, ini kalau boleh mainkan gambar-gambar itu.

Ini saya- kita di PAC kita boleh terima mana-mana sumbangan daripada orang-orang untuk hendak digunakan sebagai bahan untuk kita punya ini.

Jadi hendak mainkan sikit isu-isu mengenai mendapan dan sebagainya.

Just flip through sahajalah... [Merujuk kepada paparan s/aid] Itu ada keretakan dari segi kawasan apron itu sendiri.

Ini air bertakung.
Ini air bertakung.

Air bertakung ini saya interesting- saya bukannya pandai dalam bidang construction lah.

Akan tetapi, kalau air bertakung ini selalunya ia menunjukkan masalah mengenai mendapan.

Apabila air itu lama sangat ia bertakung, ia akan mendap.

Deforest.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Serap ke bawah.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kiraWangNagara/ BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 29 Tuan Pengerusi: Bila ia deforest, kat bawah itu tanahnya itu akan pecah lah.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.


Ali: Lembut, lembut.

Tuan Pengerusi: Kalau kapal terbang selalu lalu atas kawasan yang bertakung macam ini, ia akan lebih mampatkan lagi dia punya tanah tersebut dan akhirnya ia akan jadi permanent depression lah.

Yang memang lebih dari dua inci atau yang dimaksudkan lah.

Jadi, kawasan ini- ada setengah gambar ini saya sendiri ambil.
Jadi, maknanya kawasan tengah-tengah di antara dua parking bay itu kan, yang kalau kita lalu the overhead bridge kita tengok- kita tengok overhead bridge di antara dua finger terminal itu kita boleh tengoklah tengah tengah itu memang air bertakung begitu banyak sekali selepas hujan yang berat.

Jadi, adakah ini akan membawa kepada masalah akan datang?

Fasal apa macam saya kata tadi, selalunya ini menunjukkan simptom bahawa akan berlaku masalah.
Cara ad-hoc yang dipakai oleh MAHB untuk nak menyelesaikan masalah ini bila dah nampak masalah ini dah berlaku baru nak repair ini, adakah itu merupakan pendekatan yang selamat bagi kapal terbang untuk lalu atas kawasan yang terlibat ini?

Itu soalan sayalah mengenai mendapan inilah.

Yang Berhormat Limbang ada apa hendak tambah lagi?

Awak adalah orang JKR.

Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Haji Habibollah: Terima kasih Tuan Pengerusi.

Saya ini baru guna KLiA 2 tadi dari Kuching.

Jadi kebetulan pula hujan.


Jadi all these yang kita nampak ini at the parking lah.

Dekat parking apron lah.

Akan tetapi, saya tengok saya rasa dari runway landing tadi sedaplah, tak ada masalah lah.

I presume the MAHB have taken care of the runway because I think mendapan ini kita pun tahu kalau runway tidak boleh maln-rnainlah, Kalau parking itu bolehlah sikit, ia nak cari parking ya.

Mungkin ada mendap sana, mendap sini.

Itu runway lah.
Itu runway lah.

Runway saya rasa tak tahu lah in future lah, kan. As time goes on, it depends on your calculated rate of depression lah ya tak?

Jadi, I think this will be a continuous job for you people.

Saya tengok air itu tadi memang saya sengaja jenguk-jenguk.

Terus teranglah.

Tengok sana memang banyaklah di sepanjang parking apron itu tadi... Tuan Pengerusl: Selamat tak selamat?

Fasal kalau airport lain saya tak tengok air bertakung macam itu punya banyak.
Tuan Hajl Hasbi bin Hajl Habibollah: Jadi saya rasa- well saya rasa MAHB you have your profession there, you have your professional there.

You also know that this is a flexible pavement.

Their flexible pavement ada limit nya.

BUa dia crack, as you know that they crack.

Kalau dia belum crack, selamat lagilah.

Kalau dia dah crack, I mean the plasticity limit dah lebih, crack- air masuk , you know what it means lah yang dirisaukan oleh Tuan Pengerusi tadi.

Air masuk ke bawah it will be worse lah.


It will going back to pumping action all these thing lah.

I think the engineertahulah fasal itu.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 30 Rasa-rasanya I presume dan kita berharaplah kepada pihak MAHB satu costing lah.

I know the cost will be borne by you to do the maintenance everything lah, kan.

I think have to be taken care of dari segi keselesaan sahaja lah ya- memastikan.
Akan tetapi, bagi kita we cannot tolerate on the runway lah.

Sebab ini pernah terjadi dekat airport Kuching di hujung runway.

I think MAHB should know about it.

Pernah sekali I think 2-3 years ago- tak saya jadi Yang Berhormat dah.

That one tetapi after not, it is very frank kita tiap-tiap Khamis balik malam Jumaat itu kan. All the MP's inside the plane, asal landing hujung airport runway Kuching very bad experience you know.

So, well we have to make complaints also.

Well, in the end it is done.


Because- ya actually kita complaints dufu.

One, it's danger pada plane also, sebenarnya lah.

Jadi, inilah kita mengharapkan melihat pada perkara ini tadi, saya pun tadi sempat tengok-tengok.

I think kena buat sesuatu lah dari segi boleh menimbulkan ini lah tadi kalau bukan orang teknikal- the first thing tengok air bertakung sana, bertakung sini- imej you know the image is there already fah you know.

Kalau orang jurutera barangkali tahulah sedikit, how serious is this one.
Akan tetapi, orang awam the first comment apa ni?

Buat airport macam ini?

Airport baru pula.

Biasalah.

I think tak semestinya ... Tuan Pengerusi: Baru buka.

Itu yang jadi isu imej tadi.

Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Haji Habibollah: Jadi imej itulah.

Saya rasa itu yang kita kena jaga jugalah pihak MAHB.

Because hendak tunggu tiga inci itu akan makan masa lagi lah.

Ya tak?

Jadi, you pertimbangkan antara dua inilah.

Prestasi, imej dan sebagainya.

Tuan Pengerusi: Itu pun sekejap.

Itu pun sekejap.


Dato' Hamid you cakap pada kita itu hari dua tahun baru turun dua inci.

Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Haji Habibollah: Itu kena jagalah.

Imej.

Tuan Pengerusi: Ini baru enam bulan dah turun lebih dari dua inci sampai you kena buat kerja untuk ini.

Itu jadi kebimbangan kita juga.

Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Haji Habibollah: Imej ya kena jaga.

Tuan Pengerusi: Dalam gambar-gambar lain pun ada nanti.

Lebih daripada dua inci.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid Mohd.


Ali: Our geotechnical specialist to explain further.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idris [SGM MAHB]: Tuan Pengerusi dan Datuk-datuk sekalian.

Kalau ikut daripada design asal, saya ada bawa surat itu.

Konsultan mengatakan yang akan berlaku 50mm over a period of 20 years.

Dua inci ini over period of 20 years, okey?

Pada masa ltu, projek ini dilaksanakan oleh PMC KLIACS.
Kami hanya ambil alih selepas dekat lepas dua tahun projek berjalan, September 2011 baru kita take over.

So bila kita take over itu, earth work itu basically Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Nagars /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 31 almost completed.

So bila kita potong untuk kita serahkan kepada apron contractor, di situ kita nampak settlement tidak berlaku seperti mana yang expected.

So we try our best to re-surcharge.


Kita dah buat balik earth work untuk re-surcharge lepas itu kita cut maximum time yang kita boleh bagi.

So lepas tiga bulan kita cut balik dan kita buat then pada saat itu kita tambah lagi subsoil drain di sana sini untuk memastikan air dari bawah tanah ini keluar untuk mempercepatkan settlement.
So at the time I think that is the best information that we have, sebab dalam keadaan kita monitor base on our engineering practice apa semua, that is the best information that we have.
So that's why kita pada saat itu kerana ketidakpastian settlement ini, kita decide to pile all the underground pipes and things like that yang mana pada asalnya konsultan langsung tak pile atas dasar advise daripada PMC and consultant earth work bahawa tidak akan ada lagi settlement selepas dibuka melainkan 50mm selepas 20 tahun.

Tuan Pengerusi: You punya maklumat ini bercanggah dengan apa KLIACS cakap.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Saya boleh tunjuk surat, Tuan Pengerusi.

Tak ada masalah.
Tak ada masalah.

Tuan Pengerusi: Tak apa, tak apa.

Yang penting you dah jawab macam itu, KLIACS dah jawab macam itu.

The difference people will see the report.

Ir.

Mohd .

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Ya, sefesai.

So apa yang penting setelah kita buat.

Tuan Pengerusi: Akan tetapi itulah yang saya kata tadi, bila soal yang saya timbulkan.

Saya sendiri timbul soalan ini masa MAHB datang mula-mula.

Saya kata, cara untuk nak treat the tanah itu.


You kata tak payah nak korek sampai ke tanah yang keras selepas itu nak start timbus balik kan?

You kata cara you lebih baik.

lr, Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Bukan Tuan Pengerusi, dia ada banyak cara dalam kita buat soil improvement.

Tuan Pengerusi: Tahu, tahu tapi sekarang ini cara yang you pilih.

Cara yang I cakap adalah cara yang terbaik tetapi kos yang paling mahal.

Cara yang you pilih adalah cara yang paling murah... Ir.

Mohd.
Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Murah dan tercepat.

Tuan Pengerusi: ...Dan tercepat?

Okey.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Masa tidak ada bagi kita.

Tuan Pengerusi: I bukan management, you management, you pilih.

Sekarang ini jadi masalah dengan airport ini baru bukan enam bulan dah ada timbul masalah ini.

Saya risau lepas ini apa akan jadi adalah you kena buat keputusan.

You nak buat permanent punya solution atau you nak buat ad hoc.

The factor that remains the same is cost.


Whether you recognize it today or you recognize it years in the future but remember that physical cost, money.

The physical cost to the Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNegara /8#.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 32 eyes, the physical cost to the image, the physical cost to the impression that people has about the airport is much higher than the value of the money that you has going to spend.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idris: Okey, saya faham.


Tuan Pengerusi: You say the airport is going to, you say that airport is kept RM4 billion at cost but this work might cost you another billion.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idrls: No.

Tuan Pengerusl: Might cost you don't know where because the depression are opening up everywhere now in the apron area itu you don't know where.

Might cost you, I don't know I'm not the contractor but they might cost you that much because you don't know where, exactly where.
Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idrls: Tuan Pengerusi, area seperti mana yang IKRAM sebutkan juga is about 20 percent of the whole one million square meter of apron area.

20 percent of the whole one million square meter of apron area.

What you see is only at the center of the terminal building and in the dua apron itulah tapi belah belakang sana, belah belakang ini kita tak ada masalah.

Okey?

Tuan Pengerusi: Lalu?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Tak, tak.


68 bay berada di belakang dan di tengah dan di belakang satu lagi.

Tuan Pengerusl Pasal kapal terbang tak lalu lagi, yang di bay yang pakai sekarang ini yang banyak yang repair.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idrls: Semua pakai Datuk, semua pakai VB.

Tuan Pengerusi: Tak apa, that's my words against yours.

Boleh kita terima laporan IKRAM itu tak yang you kata you punya commission itu.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: MOT lah.


Laporan itu, IKRAM dilantik oleh MOT, ICAO also dilantik oleh MOT.

Tuan Pengerusi: Kita nak tengok dia punya skop.

Apa yang sebenarnya yang telah diaudit, yang telah dicheck pasal apa takut nanti isu yang sebenarnya tidak diambil kira, tapi isu yang general sahaja yang diambil kira.

Laporan ICAO itu pun saya rasa PAC nak tengok juga, nak view the copy.

All the laporan ya, not just the initials one, all the laporan that has been commission by IKRAM and ICAO.
In fact, what 's interesting is you should ask the aircraft manufacturer juga.

What is the impact of all this wear and tear of the depression ini on their own aircraft.

In fact I think MAHB pun or ministry should ask report from Airbus as the manufacturer of the impact of these depressions on their aircraft.

I think that is a very good indicator juga whether the depression are actually causing real damage or not.
Mungkin kita tengok ini macam kalau naik kereta, naik bas lalu depression Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kiraWang Nagara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 33 langgar sikit 'berdeguk', tersentak tak apalah tapi untuk kapal terbang, damagenya lain dan kapal terbang dia bukannya di atas jalan sahaja, dia terbang naik dan lepas itu dia turun balik.

Kalau ada damage on the undercarriage dan sebagainya it can be quite dangerous juga for the plane to fly.
Jadi saya nak cadangkan kalau boleh MOT, MAHB commission the report, independent report from the aircraft manufacturer itself whether they can state what is the impact of the planes using the KLlA2 sekarang ini, the new terminal and the runaway whether the impact on their planes is stressful or not.

Itu saya rasa laporan yang boleh kita guna pakai dalam PAC.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Jadi Datuk, dia punya long term solution to this settlement is just topping up.

Bila dia settle, kita top up.


Itu sahaja solution yang kita telah rangka hari inilah.

Cara lain tak ada, that's all.

Tuan Pengerusi: Bukan nak koreklah?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: No.

Tuan Pengerusi: Bukan nak korek balik part by part Iepas itu tutup baliklah?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: Tidak.

Kita top up.

Tuan Pengerusi: I tahu you kata top up tapi top up, we still don't know what happens underneath because the water might not has been cleared totally.

Ir.

Mohd.
Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Okey.

Tuan Pengerusi, dalam design of this pavement, kita ada satu layer yang dipanggil greenish layer.

Thickness dia is 200mm kemudian kita ada crusher run which is 400mm yang mana sekiranya air meresap masuk, dia akan pergi masuk ke subsoil drain, dia tidak akan sampai ke tanah.

Design has been done that way.

Tuan Pengerusi: But the solidity of the ground underneath you don't know.

Because ini tanah gambut, bawah dalam tanah gambut itu pun ada air.
How do you handle the issue?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Okey, okey.

Tuan Pengerusi, tanah gambut ini kita telah tambak paling kurang sebanyak tiga meter tanah ataupun tanah biasa kemudian paling tebal tujuh meter, bergantung pada permukaan tanah asal, Yang ini yang mana pada satu peringkat dulu bila kita tengok ada tanah gambut betul-betul di bawah pavement, ini antara sebab PMC kami tak sambunglah.

Minta maaf kena cakap di sinilah ya.


Kita terpaksa korek balik tanah gambut ini sebanyak tiga meter untuk memastikan apa yang kita panggil dalam engineering bearing capacity, kekuatan tanah untuk menampung beban.

Kita terpaksa korek balik tiga meter, so kita buat tiga meter replacement ini untuk memastikan yang tanah di bawah pavement kita solid.

So tanah gambut itu berada tiga meter di bawah tanah merah ini tadi.
Lepas itu kita ada satu meter lagi, 1.2 meter lagi pavement yang daripada crusher run tadi, sampai drainage layer, sampailah premix.

Tuan Pengerusi: The heavy heavyweight of the aircraft impacting on the ground... Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Should not be a problem.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 34 Tuan Pengerusl: Should not be a problem ya?

That is your statement ya?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddln bin Idris: Yes.


Dia masalah dia yang landing gear ini is bila landing lebih besar impact dia daripada comparing track taxing dekat runway.

Tuan Pengerusl: Runway, YB.

Limbang dah kata okey.

Ha dia dah cuba tadi.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idrls: Jadi bila yang macam Datuk Hamid cakap tadi, kita nak menunggu tiga inci sebab kalau satu inci, kita paste satu inci dia akan peel off, so it's not going to be stand alone.
Sebab itu kita kena tunggu juga sampai masa buat tiga inci then kita korek, kita top up balik.

Jadi dekat mana yang ada depression between the structure pile dengan tak pile tadi kita akan korek, kita akan letak slab yang mana pada original cost kalau nak buat slab ini dulu RM60 juta yang sekarang ini kita ada program tiga tahun untuk replace slab ini, cost dia RM9.8 juta, itu sahaja.

So kita kena pakai due diligence masa kita nak buat slab ini dulu.
Pada pandangan kami, isu of ponding ini is not the safety issue tapi image issue, lebih kepada image issue so kita akan rectify secepat mungkin dekat mana area yang ponding itu dah agak banyak, kita akan resurface balik immediately supaya air boleh masuk terus ke longkang.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Lapangan terbang ini Datuk, sama juga dengan Penang.

Penang punya soil condition sama juga dengan KLlA2, malahan di Penang tidak buat apa-apa treatment.
So sehingga hari ini pun sarna juga runway dia kita overlay, bila sampai masanya kita overlay sehinggakan sekarang bila kita buat coring , the depth of the pavement is already 1.8 meter but dia settle kita top up, settle, top up.

That is the solution build by JKR tahun 1972 dahulu.

Tuan Pengerusi: The different of this airport is the volume is high, itu sahaja banding dengan Penang.

Penang, airport volume dia tak tinggi so dia punya wear and tear tak seberat KLlA2 ini.

.1300 Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.


Ali: Ya, yes .

Kaedah dia sarna juga Tuan Pengerusi.

Macam Kansai pun sarna juga.

They are still settling till today.

Kansai higher volume than... Tuan Pengerusl: No, tetapi Kansai pun tidak settle within six month macam sekarang ini?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid Mohd.

Ali: All airport ... Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddln Idrls: Termasuk seluruh bandar burni, open sahaja ada port whole dekat runaway.

Tuan Pengerusl: [Ketawa] Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddln Idris: Bukan, bukan, bukan.


Tuan Pengerusl: Jadi sekarang ini you hendak justify you punya ini by seeing relative to others you are okey.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 35 Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddln bin Idris: Bukan, bukan Tuan Pengerusi macam ini.

Sekarang ini sebab semasa construction dulu terlampau banyak aktiviti construction was done in very short time.
Dua, empat tahun untuk planning dan construction okey berbanding dengan KLiA which we are building 70% of KLIA.

KLiA 2 tahun planning, lima tahun plus construction.

Kami buat planning dan construction empat tahun.

Dato' Abd.

Azlz Sheikh Fadzir: MAHB yang hendak ambil kira dekat situ.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idris: Tidak mengapa.

Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: Tidak ada siapa suruh.

Dia decide hendak buat.

Ir.

Mohd.


Zalfuddln bin Idris: Jadi Yang Berhormat sekarang ini, dalam keadaan... Tuan Pengerusi: Isunya kenapa you rushing pasal apa bila Air Asia suggest lampu inl semua dafam laporan nanti.

You kata you can do it better in a shorter time.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: For RM2 billion, for RM2 billion.

Tuan Pengerusi: Ya, ya I know.

You see that the rush in the time, not the governments instruct you to do it quickly.

It was you yang gave the commitment to the government.
Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Alright.

Tuan Pengerusi: My bila buat Prime Minister and the Cabinet all said all trusted you.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin idris: Okey.

Tuan Pengerusi: But unfortunately now we are the bad boys to say that why did you commit such a thing when you don't have to commit the fast phase implementation.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idris: Okey, I think that one we have answered before Tuan Pengerusi.

Cuma saya hendak bagi tahu sekarang ini... Dato' Abd.
Azlz Sheikh Fadzir: Berulang-ulang kali cerita sama fast track ini justify higher price.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Tidak Yang Berhormat, untuk permanent solution sekarang ini sebab aktiviti construction sudah tidak ada.

So kita tengah monitor settlement sekarang yang mana kita monitor selama 6 bulan ke setahun akan lebih mudah untuk kita predicted dia punya end of settlement.

So based on prelim our consultant kata dalam lima ke enam tahun based on prelim.
Tapi kita tengah monitor sekarang eve/}'day dari situ kita akan buat back calculation on the prediction.

So ini kita punya solusi kita akan buat selepas ini.

Tuan Pengerusi: What's the cost pun you actually do not know kan?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddln bin Idris: Ha?

Tuan Pengerusi: What is the cost?

What is the forecast cost?

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kiraWangNegara / BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 36 Ir.

Mohd.
Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Setakat ini maintenance cost yang kita telah allow untuk satu tahun selepas operasi dalam RM15 juta.

Itu termasuk dengan kita letak slab tadi dekat area-area yang ada structure.

Tuan Pengerusi: Also another things is what we are going to do is this.

We do not want you to save money on the repair work and yet benda-benda itu berlaku lagi.

You must also do it one short bagi benda itu terus as sempurna as it can be.

Ir.

Mohd.
Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: So permanent... Tuan Pengerusi: Instead of you just try to save money one the top up.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Alright.

Permanent solution Tuan Pengerusi is to pile which will cost about RM400 million.

Tuan Pengerusi: That's my point lah... [Ketawa] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Tuan Pengerusi, if I may, I think PAC dengan kerajaan maybe I think the objective is the same.

I think safety is paramount.


The question is how we move forward and resolve these issues of ponding .

Now as I understand Tuan Pengerusi if I may.

I think there, as the airport operator, responsible airport operator.

I don't think they want any mishap to happen.

I think the objective is the same ya.

I think PAC, the noble objective is to ensure that this does not happen.

Kalau satu sahaja berlaku, I think the whole KLIA punya image will be tarnished.

I think that is the principle.


I think it was based on them that we engaged IKRAM and we spent quite a bit of money on IKRAM to do the assessment.

Now after that we invited the ICAO expert to come and they have also look at it very thoroughly.

There also recognized the ponding issue.

Ponding ini tidak boleh kita biarkan sebegitu sahaja.

I think that's why moving forward this ponding ini of course they have explained that they will wait for 3 inches and all the rest.
But from the pictures, it is an image issue.

Safety wise because we have the DCA as the safety aviation punya authority accountable to ICAO.

We are member of ICAO counsel.

If anything happen to this airport, it is a reflection of the entire government punya effort.

So I think moving forward we will continue to monitor as long is their ponding ini kita kena ambil tindakan tertentulah.

Dia sudah beIi mesin pun.


Bila air itu takung dia kan sedut dan sapu but when you reached a certain level beyond tolerance level.

Once it is not tolerable; I think it has to trigger immediate pavement dan sebagainya to runaway system... Dato' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: Saya hendak ikut apa yang Chairman kata.
Kita bimbang sekarang ini KLiA pun under pressure hendak make sure dia minimize the cost, takut another macam tadi saudara kata kalau kita buat piling is RM400 million and we have another public up rise.

Lsporan Prosiding JK Kirs-kirs Wsng Nagsrs /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 37 Tetapi it's better for us face it.

Kalau that is a permanent solution, you know rather than kita try hendak manage the cost... Datuk Serl Long See Wool: We understand.

Data' Abd.
Data' Abd.

Aziz Sheikh Fadzir: ...You know takut it become another big issue.

Shall we face it kalau itu permanent solution, we just move forward.

Try not to be herolah.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Now we take note.

Tuan Pengerusl: Datuk, another thing I want to add.

The ponding in the sentral punya itu is actually more than two inches .

You know why?

I was sitting in the airport and the aircraft watching a plane taxi by, kita buat research .
The water spray is actually covered the whole of the wheel as a plane going through the water.

It cannot be two inches.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Akan tetapi itu bergantung pada space Tuan Pengerusi.

Tuan Pengerusi: Betullah, betul.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: We waiting of your... Tuan Pengerusi: Kalau I ini sebagai laymen I tengok I bukan cakap sebagai ini, I bukan cakap fasal sebagai PAC untuk cari salah you, tidak.

Ini I punya observation, I tengok.


Two inches punya ini, the spray cannot cover the whole tyre.

This one I tengok sendiri.

The taxi 30 kilometers an hour dekat situ.

Dia bukannya boleh pergi laju sangat.

Tetapi the water spray out itu cover the whole tyre.

So it must be in more two inches.

So that's why I'm talking just now about you want to do permanent or you want to do ad-hoc.
You have to decide today, you have to bite the bullet and do it because that water ponding is going to be there because it's going to be deep and as more place go over it, it's going to be deeper.

So that's why I'm saying.


Tapi you top up, lepas itu lalu lagi, dia mendap lagi kan. That's why for that particular section kan. We topping up, solve the problem permanently or will do a permanently solution ... {Disampuk] What ever it is lah all I'm saying kan but the airplane punya lalu pun will impact on the ground in longer term.

We are talking about seinci, dua inci bukan sekaki, dua kaki.

Seinci, dua inci boleh berlaku.

It is not a matter of because the plane is heavy.


Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Haji Habibollah: Mr. Chairman... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Seinci, dua inci for me short fellow very important Yang Berhormat.

Tuan Pengerusi: Even Datuk pun sudah berani says it is important to him .. .

{Ketawa] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Tidak mengapa we make sure that they - but dia pun ada sudah beli equipment kan mesin sweep away the water lah.
Tuan Hajl Hasbl bin Hajl Hablbollah: Mr. Chairman, jadi kita mintalah saudara Zaifuddin tolong tengoklah on teknikallah, kita samalah.

Saya faham apa yang you cakaplah.

Actually just that Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara / BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 38 tadi apa yang saya sentuh cerita imej bagi orang yang tidak tahu, you know what I mean minta maaflah public image apa begini-beginilah ya.
Jadi saya ada mungkin saya terlupa kah apa-apa tadi, what is your predicted final settlement dalam berapa lama setahun ya yang kawasan-kawasan mendap ini consolidation di sini.

Berapa yang telah di predict dalam masa berapa lama akan sampai ke final... [Disampuk] Oalam setahunlah?

Jadi 20% of the area, okey.

Jadi saya hendak Mr. Chairman ya.

Satu, imej.


Kedua, kalau hendak bandingkan dengan piling tadi itu pun sebenarnya saya sokong jugalah Mr. Chairman because the moment you pile one area, the other site is going to depression juga, akan timbullah ini.

Jadi, saya rasa this will be a continues joblah untuk MAHB untuk memastikan ia sentiasa diturap sampai ke satu tahap.

Satu, imej terjaga.
Satu, imej terjaga.

You pun tidak sakit telingalah orang bantai sana, orang bantai sini tetapi yang kita risau satu jugalah ialah you know this will going to continuous maintenance, harga tinggi.

.1310 Kita memanglah, rakyat harapan dia satu sahaja.

Kadang-kadang bila kita sudah belanja banyak sangat, they said the cost will be translated to the pengguna.

Itu kita hendak pastikan juga.


Kadang-kadang benda itu tidak jadi pun, tetapi kata itulah buat tidak senonoh, tidak sempurna, selepas itu sudah buat repair kita tanggung lagi.

Ini biasalah.

This is vel}' simple mind set kadang kadang dalam media, dalam apa.

This is the thing rakyat tidak mahu itu.

Tidak buat elok dia kata, we pay the cost and all this things, orang lain untung besar.

You know all this things, this is biasalah, direct begitu sahaja.
Jadi saya rasa Tuan Pengerusi dalam untuk memastikan ponding ini tidak terjadi, with all the reports what is the - Saya setuju jugalah fasal kadang-kadang memang betullah Tuan Pengerusi, kalau kita menurap jalan pun, kalau satu inci ini terus terang, you ambil kereta laju sedikit, you tekan brek terlongkah habis kalau terlampau nipis.

Itu memang betul.

Tidak ada effect lagi sudah on this one, terlongkah sebab kita pernah buat... [Ketawa] Kita test begitu.
Senang sahaja hendak check kontraktor, bukan susah.

Yes, we did that.

You jalan laju sedikit, you tekan brek, kalau ia nipis terlongkah habis itu.

Jadi this are other things, memang ada certain thing baru ada strength situ.

Jadi, saya rasa yang patut dijaga dalam hal ini ialah imej ini.

Imej on the- This is where are the passengers you know.

Semua Iihat view tempat apron semua.

Oi situlah nampak semua apa yang bertakung.


Oalam kapal terbang kalau on runway lagilah tidak nampak, lagi bagus sebenarnya tetapi di kawasan apron inilah tempat viewing area you know.

This is where all the mouth cakap cakap tidak elok inilah keluar.

Jadi, kita perlu pastikan imej ini terjaga sebab ini juga adalah imej kerajaan.
Keselamatan sudah pasti dan ini akan memerlukan kerja yang berterusan dan kos-kos penyelenggaraan ini somewhere somehow janganlah menjadi you know, you have to make sure LapOfan Pfosiding JK Kira-kifa Wsng Nagsfs /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 39 rakyat hendak tahu ltu, kita tidak akan menanggung beban merepair ini kepada kami katanya, pengguna.

These are the thing the rakyat want to know.

Tuan Pengerusi: You cost will transfer to the passenger service charge .
Let finish the photos first and then we can move on to other question.

Next... [Gambar-gambar masalah berkenaan KLIA 2 ditayangkan pada slaid] Dato' Abd.

Hamid Mohd.

Ali: Tambahan persoalan berkenaan dengan walka/ator yang dibangkitkan tadi.

[Ahli-ahli berbincang sesama sendiri] Tuan Pengerusi: That is why I am saying, right now the image I means lalu tepi tengah buka bukan.

I means the promise that was made by MAHB that they are suppose be complete, perfect and now it is become like this.
This was just a comfort be made to us early in this year tetapi towards the end of this year sudah perlu buat major works like this kena buka batik konkrit dan sebagainya.

But my point is the end of the day you have to decide permanent or ini- Dato' you pun seat on the board, MAHB.

Akan tetapi tidak mengapalah, decision had been made bukan but the board also should have been more diligent on this.

You are only one on the board Dato'.

I agreed with you.

It is not easy to become a board member of GLe.


I was there once.

Kadang-kadang management present, kita pun within the devisable limit kita agree.

When an assurances sound good, we agree.

But later on when problem comes, at the end of the day it is still the board yang take responsibly juga .

[Merujuk gambar yang ditayangkan pada slaid berkenaan masalah di KLIA 2] So this is the latest, two days ago.

Saya sendiri yang ambil gambar ini.

Imej sudah terjejas jugalah.


Ini yang saya ambil gambar dari tepi.

Panjang juga itu.

Lagi.

Ini retak di- ini pipeline punya way bukan?

Masih retak lagi di atas itu.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Sudah seal.

Tuan Pengerusi: Sudah seal ya.

Akan tetapi mengapa ada retak lagi?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Fasal dia seal warna hitam, nampaklah dia gelap.

Tuan Pengerusi: Yalah but use the proper one so that tidak nampak begitu, tidak cantik.

Ir.

Mohd.
Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]

Tuan Pengerusi: This okay.

Dia pun nampak benda itu menurun.

From the left part to the right you can see the depression very clearly there until today.

Thank you for putting the plastic cone there so they can see the depression.

Karau tidak, tidak nampak .. .

[Ketawa] Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara .]

Tuan Pengerusi: I tahu tetapi masalahnya it is the whole stretch itu.
It doesn't affect just one bay, it is the whole stretch and that does not means the other bay would not happen also.

Okey Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kiraWangN8garaI BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 40 ada gambar lagi?

Habis sudah gambar, itu apa itu?...

[Disampuk] Petronas pit.

Fuel pit bukan, pun ada retak situ yang you sudah seal, I presume.

Lain?

Okeylah.

Tidak ada gambar lagi bukan?

Tuan Hajl Hasbl bin Hajl Habiboilah: Hendak tanya sedikit sahajalah to the MAHB dan Encik Mohd Zaifuddin.
Seperti tadi Petronas punya pit, tangki minyak di bawah tanah itu bukan, ingin juga hendak tahu so far mereka tidak ada masalah ya dengan tangki minyak dia because of this soft ground bawahlah.

Ada masalah tidak tangki-tangki minyak mereka bawah apron ini yang ada cracking atau apa-apa?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddln bin Idrls: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]

Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Hajl Habiboilah: Tidak ada masalahlah?

Dia pakai skirt atau konkrit punya?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idrls: Pipeline?


Tuan Haji Hasbi bin Hajl Hablbollah: Tidak, yang tangki dia.

Paip sahaja.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idris: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]

Tuan Hajl Hasbi bin Haji Hablbollah: Tangki dia somewhere else?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Yes.

Tuan Hajl Hasbi bin Haji Habiboilah: Okay.

Terima kasih.

Tuan Pengerusl: Ini gambar lamalah.

Gambar-gambar lama.

Itu lebih dua inci itu.

Sure, confirm.

Gambar lamalah.


Ini sudah fixed atau belum semua ini?

Ini semua sudah fixed sudah?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idris: Sudah.

Tuan Pengerusi: Ini dekat parking belah mana ini?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddln bin Idrls: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]

Tuan Pengerusi: Kawasan konkrit.

Okey.

Cerita lamalah.

Itu gambar yang ponding yang clear.

[Disampuk]I know.

I know.

Okey.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]
Tuan Pengerusl: Many sources... [Ketawa]lni.

You punya kontraktor buat kerja turap ini dia letak plywood as a foundation?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddln bin Idris: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]

Tuan Pengerusl: Sudah buanglah bukan.

Tidak, orang ambil gambar bukan.

Itulah daripada ponding itu.

So boleh nampak reflection from the aircraft.

Okey yang ini, isu ini di bangunan sendiri bukan?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddln bin Idris: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]

Tuan Pengerusi: MA head/ah.


Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddln bin Idris: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]

Tuan Pengerusl: This one you expected or not expected?

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Nagaral 8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 41 Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin bin Idris: Expected.

Tuan Pengerusi: How you expected?

You construct and you expected this area to fall down?

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idris: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]

Tuan Pengerusl: Okeylah.


One thing is why you go ahead on the same site even though you blame the original consultant, you kata that was shoddy tetapi you still continue work on the same site juga.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddln bin Idrls: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]

Tuan Pengerusi: Va lah.

That is my point.

All this decision, all trigger because of the first decision to move the site, to move the ... Ir.

Mohd.

Zalfuddin bin Idris: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]
Tuan Pengerusi: Va lah.

I know.

No, I am not.

In our report, we have to mention all this to give perspective to the readers.

If not, they will not understand why this problem happen because we have to go back to original decision why was it still build on that soft land.

Okey ada gambar lagi?

Okeylah.

Cukup, banyak gambar sudah.

So kesimpulannya, permanent or ad hoc solution, you have to address that.

• 1320 Tadi laporan (CAO, IKRAM itu kalau boleh kita hendak copy.
Selepas itu kalau boleh ambil pula report from the aircraft manufacturer pun, I think it is useful for us to explain the situation.

Kalau aircraft manufacturer kata actually the stress on our plane is tolerable.

Then, okay.

But if saya cakap the stress on our plane is not tolerable.

Then we have a bigger problem and that maybe used as an excuse for you to basically to do your permanent solution.

Okey?

Ada soalan lain daripada committee?


Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: Va... [Ketawa] There is number of questions but usually just we need short answers, just to put on record.

Last question on keretakan yang berlaku itu, runaway any problem so far?

Runaway free, no problem?

Tidak ada ya.

So ada settlement tetapi equal settlement lah?

Okey.
Okey.

Ada isu yang dibangkitkan oleh AirAsia yang keluar di media itu bahawa mereka tidak dibenarkan untuk membawa checking system mereka sendiri yang mereka ada di LCCT ke KLIA dan terpaksa guna sistem KLlA2 yang belum siap lagi.

So at this point in time, you see all the machines there but all cannot use for check in, luggage self-tagging, all the facilities that was previously was available.

So is there particular basis or reason for this?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Ya, commercial decision.


Sebabnya pemilihan ini dibuat bersama.

In fact kita buat mock up di LCCT asal pun bersama dengan mereka dan mereka pun Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara / BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 42 bersetuju pada awalnya untuk memilih satu sistem.

Mereka cuma tidak bersetuju towards the end dan mengemukakan pelbagai alasan.

la berkisar kepada isu komersial.


mereka tidak bersetuju dengan caj yang dikenakan oleh syarikat yang menguruskan sistem ini dan kita memilih sistem ini berasaskan kepada business continuity.

Anything happen at KLiA 1, we can operate at KLlA2 because on common platform.

Apa yang AirAsia hendak adalah platform mereka sendiri yang mana syarikat-syarikat lain tidak boleh menggunakan platform mereka.
Jadi atas dasar ini, kita tidak bersetuju dan EC sendiri pun telah memberikan keputusan supaya sistem yang dipilih ini diguna pakai.

Tuan Pengerusi: Akan tetapi KLlA1 punya sistem SITA is based on premium airlines bukan?

Jadi, cater for high volume low cost airline tidak?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: SITA boleh guna semua sistem penerbangan yang ada.

Tuan Pengerusi: Tidak, tidak.

Soalan saya begini.

Soalan saya, premium airline, dia punya volume tidak tinggi macam low cost, bukan?
So, walaupun you ada plan hendak buat business continuity between KLiA dengan KLlA2 pakai sistem SITA yang sama, tetapi both terminal is actually for different use lah.

Even though you cakap dahulu this is a hybrid terminal from low cost terminal, jadi hybrid terminal.

Akan tetapi penggunanya dia akan sebenarnya datang daripada low cost airline juga.
So, sama ada sistem SITA yang dipakai di KLiA itu yang dahulu design for premium airline for lower volume, is it compatible dengan sistem yang diguna pakai di KLlA2 lebih kepada high volume low cost airline?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: Actually trafik di KLlA1 lebih tinggi daripada KLlA2.

Jadi tidak timbul sama ada... Tuan Pengerusi: I agree dengan you.

Saya sudah pakai KLiA1 last one month ini sudah empat kali.

Dari London, Langkawi, dari mana semua saya sudah terbang.
Bertolak pagi pukul 9, sampai petang dari Langkawi pukul 2, sampai dari London pukul 6, sepi sekarang ini KLiA1.

International pun, after 9 o'clock the traffic sudah drop off.

Petang pukul 6 sudah tidak sibuk macam dahulu lagi.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: Ya.

Tuan Pengerusi: I think the main reason is because Malindo kah, the low cost airline sudah pindah dari KLiA ke KLlA2.

So, that statement I would dispute very much because I sendiri yang lalu di KLiA1.

KLiA1 semakin sepi.
KLiA1 semakin sepi.

So, the traffic has moved to KLlA2.

The volume at KLlA2 is definitely much higher.

For you to say that SITA itu for higher volume punya airline.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Ya.

Based on last year, 25.

7 million from KLiA 1.

From LCeT is only 22 million.

That was last year.

This year we do not have the traffic figure yet.


Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kiraWangNegara/ Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 43 Tuan Pengerusi: Akan tetapi maksud saya tadi, KLlA1 pun memang traffic high dahulu tetapi LLCT took over and then now, KLlA2 is taken over.

By the system in KLlA, SITA is actually appropriate for KLlA2 which is higher volume or not.

Ini belum cerita lagi fasal free check in, luggage drop.

Belum cerita lagi fasal check pasport, Interpol.

Isu baru timbul dalam baru-baru in; MH370.


Fasal you tidak link our system to Interpol dan sebagainya untuk check pasport selepas itu check criminal record atau apa-apakah.

So, is the SITA punya sistem ini fully functional for the current needs for the airline industry especially when it comes to low cost punya airline requirement?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Ya.

Semua boleh compatible.

Tuan Pengerusi: Sekarang?

Today?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: Yes.


Sebabnya it link to the baggage, it link to the, it link to everything.

In fact, AirAsia system jika mereka hendak buat ia akan memakan masa and also the only issue yang dibangkitkan adalah Interpol issue which we have discussed with SITA.

there is no issue.

They can accommodate as well.

Just keep the password, they can configure, the system can fUlly function to meet low cost need.
Tuan Pengerusi: Okay, another question is, sekarang ini you charge SITA where?

Where is your point of charge?

Semasa you check in sahaja ataupun you do pre check in kah... Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Dia masuk dalam if not mistaken, dalam check in system itself yang mana syarikat AirAsia dikenakan 35 US cents per passenger.

That is all they are required to pay.

Tuan Pengerusi: Per passenger whether they used the SITA system or they used pre check in and everything?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.


All: Yes.

Kalau dia buat await check in pun because dia kena tag the bag as they used the system, they used the same platform.

Ya.

Tuan Pengerusi: Alright.

Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: Want answer one more question?

Perhaps Datuk Long can help.

I think there was an issue that was raised about the conflict of interest between the ministry sittings within MAHB.

Ministry acting as a regulator for the industry.

How does the ministry reconcile these two roles at justification?
Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Yang Berhormat, I think this- I never want to answer.

This was raised in the paper.

They also said that I was the member of MAS board for which I have never.

So that created by quite a bits of along- saya pun kata, "You member of MAS kah?"

If I may ask someone, "Since when you become board MAS?"

Tidak ada tetapi ini yang MAHB itu memang.

I was a member for quite a while.


I think conflict of interest I think Yang Berhormat and you know, it depends on circumstances for which an issue arises.

So if there is an issue been tabled for Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 44 discussion, if it is clear conflict of interest, I think the person who sit in the board, will just have to declare himself and opt himself out of this discussion.
How you look at the issue of conflict of interest, if you- I mean if you say that conflict of interest, ada pula lain-lain ahli dari agensi kerajaan lain duduk dalam, itu pun boleh ditimbulkan sebagai conflict of interest.

It's how you manage yourself as long as you treat the issue objectively where there is direct issue that, for which you, by being there, is a conflict then you just have to opt yourself out.
• 1330 It is a government decision, if the government feels that the situation is untenable, just a decision have to been made for you not to sit on the board.

I mean they, they reported even to the media.

I think how many weeks ago talking about the Aviation Commission and cited issue for instant which is not related to the commission there even established as a conflict of interest.
Tuan Pengerusi: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: [Ketawa] But if the company can specifically say in maybe deciding on this particular issue, this man sitting there has contributed to a decision which is not objective... Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: I think that was... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: To make a general statement of conflict of interest is a very general statement.

Tuan Pengerusi: ...Penubuhan suruhanjaya untuk penerbangan udara dan sebagainya.
Adakah peranan mereka sebagai regulator atau adakah peranan mereka sebagai check and balance kepada kementerian, MAHB kah, pada MAS... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Then it is yet to be established lah.

I think you looking at the principle.

I think the important thing will be... Tuan Pengerusi: That's why the issue of conflict of interest we just timbul perceive .

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Yes, perceived.


Tuan Pengerusi: You do your job in the board objectively but to people you are the KSU as a current regulator because there is no other person there.

It is the ministry and then you seat on the board of MAHB which has be decides on issue about constructing airport.

So, therefore as a regulator it is your vision or your judgment impact by you sitting on the board.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I don't think so.

As if you do know about it, Yang Berhormat.


Tuan Pengerusi: People perception.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Yes, perception.

Tuan Pengerusl: People perception you maybe impact.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNagaraI Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 45 Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Like here, I come here.

I appeared here a number of times.


When you come the issue like just now we discussed the issue, I'm here as a KSU, I see the issues ada valid daripada PAC each and every member punya view, dia ada MAHB punya view, I'm here sebagai KSU.

I looked at the overall as long as my answer to you, subject to your thinking whether I am subjective or not lah.

But, I think I have performed my duty objectively.

Kalau salah itu kita terima, kalau silap itu kita terima.
Tuan Pengerusi: Akan tetapi Datuk Seri kita tidak boleh duduk dalam mana-mana jabatan kerajaan, tetapi dalam isu Datuk Seri, Datuk Seri duduk dalam Kementerian Pengangkutan dan juga dalam MAHB yang telah diberikan konsesi untuk hendak menguruskan airport di sefuruh negara.

ftu orang boleh perceive as conflict of interest.

As, PAC we have no such issue because wejust sitting as Members of Parliament, we don't said at any of the ministry or jabatan that we audit.
Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: It is a bit like a Minister sitting as a Chairman of the Auditor General- I mean although you can say that we have different duty.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Okey, Yang Berhormat I understand where you come from, I see, but you must also remember the advantages of a KSU sitting in a particular board because we were able to contribute, I can even cite some examples, say at the MAB level when they are discussing.
They do not have for instance I know in terms of traffic rights what are available and what would be given .

I also know about certain factors for which I also advice maybe this- I give an example if this size of terminal building might not cater for because there are airlines with new traffic rights been granted for example Indonesia.

There will be more flight or like British Airway will be coming in next year.

You have to look at certain things that need to be provided.
There are many advantages therefore which I don't want to talk about it.

That contributes to a better decision in an organization.

Because if you look at one side not looking at the other side.

I'm saying that there are advantages.

Anyway, Yang Berhormat I am leaving, what I'm saying is there I don't think to me lah personally whether you accept it or not, I don't think I have done anything that cause injustice to a particular decision.

If there are, by all may cite it.

That's it.


Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Relating to this issue, one of the examples that a conflict could arise.

I'm not saying that.... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I'm not saying the conflict doesn't arise, I never dispute that.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: No, no.

Let me explain my case.

I'm not accusing anything I'm just saying that a conflict can arise.

Conflict can arise for example when MAHB proposal increase in parking charges, airport tax, etc.
So, as a board of MAHB you're almost bounce to support an increase ... Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara / Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 46 Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, no.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Yes almost bounces because you actually ... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, that's not true.

Let me explain you cite particular one give me the opportunity to answer to you.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Let me give a question than you have plenty of time to explain, I'm not running away.
So, from the MAHB perspective it is a bottom line for MAHB.

How much traffic can increase, traffic been infected and how much fully result increase revenue but, from a regulator perspective when you look it impact from overall, travel, impact burden of passengers, impact on airlines etc.

So that is where a potential conflict are increase from what we understand from investment community today, MAHB has been telling the fund managers that the airport tax will be increase double to 65 in a coming year.
It has submitted to the government waiting for the government to approve or be judge.

How the... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Okey Yang Berhormat.

In fact thank you vel}' much for bring it this out.

You see, any increase in charges there are two categories of charges.

One is what you call aeronautical charges, the other one is commercial charges.

A commercial charge is not regulated by the government.
Regulator chargers a passenger service charge, landing and parking charges, other than that.... Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Aerobridge.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, no aerobridge is not part of it.

Okay, today in a concession agreement there are clear provisions.

How they can adjust the passenger service charge?

In the first place they need to do is benchmark.

Mana Singapore, Thailand the regional airport.


We go as far as even to Hong Kong, of course Hong Kong itu memang mahal tidak payahlah kita comparekan.

So, that is one.

Secondly, they must fulfill KPI's.

Their performance must be at this level, this level before they can even put it to the government for approval and this all vel}' clear principles.

Dia tidak boleh langgar, I there, infect, I mean, I am the one do not like increases.

In a first place to begin with, so you must be justified.
I cannot at that particular meeting knowing the formula, knowing the principles increasing charges, the first question I would ask that the moment you moved this, is it beyond that average benchmark compare to the other airport.

I tidak boleh sokong sebegitu sahaja.

I tidak boleh and then they sokong semua price index which is also the benchmark.

Similar in all other airport in the world, no airport.
Because you must remember this business in a way it is quite monopolistic the nature of it because airlines sometimes has no choice.

Sama ada you terbang kah, you tidak terbang itu sahaja, apa pilihan you.

So, the Laporan Prosiding JK Kifa-kifa WangNagafs/ BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 47 abuse of the dominant position is an issue.

So, each time the passenger service charge you think in a moment you move a charge everybody complain.

In Malaysia it is not easy to move the prices.


So, there is a clear cut formula.

KSU tidak boleh balik bawa concession agreement and pindah, tidak boleh.

You have to go to a government committee .

Okay for instance there were proposals; I can even tell you here that we impose something called development charge.

So, my role in a board, which airport do it?

How do they do it?
How do they do it?

They mentioned to me like London, you go to London today if you look it at the ticket the charges are imposed if you look at the tickets is about RM801.00.

• 1340 You're paying RM65 or RM75?

So, they are telling, "Ini begitu punya banyak ."

I said, "But you don't compare to London. "

See London even some people and say liThe shuttle buses or whatever trains inter-terminal itu free of charge.

II But then if we look at the actual charge of Heathrow, you run away.
I am just giving example.

I am not saying by saying all these I have cleared my name.

Tak.

As aKSU ... Tuan Pengerusi: It was not about... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: ...In fact it was much more difficult.

It was easier not to be in.

Tuan Pengerusi: It is not about Datuk Long sir, it's about the KSU sir.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I knew it suppose ... Tuan Pengerusi: You are the KSU today, you will not be a KSU in the future sir.

The issue here is this- can we do things better, PAC kan?
People think that you see the perception of the people is everything there must something behind deal.

Somebody's making money.

Okay?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ya, ya.

Tuan Pengerusi: That is why today the BN government- I am not playing parti politik now is in problem because the perception and when actually it just remains a perception.

Kan?...

[Ketawa] Just by you sitting on the board, the perception is there.

How you explained it doesn't have impact, you know.
Because people always think you always can do better.

For example the service charge you are saying- you know.

There are guidelines, you cannot just and then eventually you have to apply back to the government.

But then took simple mind of people is you see on the board of MAHB, when you propose it, that means you are proposing collectively as a board which you are member of.

Then go back to you as the KSU where you approve it.
Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Yang Berhormat, I see the perception but if I alone have so much of influence and power- I have to clear so many... [Ketawa] Tuan Pengerusi: That's my point.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8i/.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 48 Datuk Seri Long See Wool: ...That goes to all the committees and cabinet eventually.

Tuan Pengerusi: No, the perception is people think you have.

In terms of people think you have an influence on the decisions.
My part about the passenger's service charge as well is why should we charge the same as everybody else?

In Heathrow you have lots of other regulation environmental, city council and everything.

So, that we don't have here in Malaysia.

Our rules and regulations are less stringent than other countries.

That's why we can basically just build the airport and then charge it based on the cost of the airport.

There are no other charges .


We see from our point of view when MAHB builds the airports, how much they spend on the airports?

And how much of their cost is basically going to be charge back to the customer as passenger's service charge?

It is as simple as that.

There is no other regulation to basically to distort the price.

There is no other issue to distort the price.

It's just the cost of MAHB running its business.

And the issue that comes up also is this- MAHB is a listed company.
Therefore is driven by profit.

How do you basically close this gap, sir?

On one hand MAHB is listed driven by profit, it's owned by the government.

On the other hand, you are trying to perform your role as a regulator in a government trying to suppress the price.

In a long run, who win sir?

In a long run the profit motive... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I know I would not be able to give you an explanation that you would walk back for reset start.

I accept that.

Tuan Pengerusl: Not me.


The report that we are going to do is report for the public.

It's for them to being satisfied or not.

We just write the report.

I am just relying to you what expectations, what feedback that you will have on this issue.

But I don't want to be label at this point.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, no.

Tuan Pengerusi: It's only 1.45 Datuk.

I mean I don't want to torture you anymore to answer since you already said that you want to have a happy few months left .. .
[Ketawa] Datuk Serl Long See Wool: No, no.

Yang Berhormat, Yang Berhormat.

That is the least of what- what happen is this lah.

You see as a public servant, I think most of the government officers here.

We do not answer to the media unless it is really necessary.

In fact, I am thankful you brought up the issue.

At least you give me the opportunity to explain whether the explanation is good enough or not good enough.

We understand that.

It is your wisdom to judge.

So, itulah dia.


That's why I am trying to explain.

Now, since you brought up the issue.

Now to balance, I think every government company, GLC or even like Changi today.

They are not really privatized.

They are corporatized.

It's the question how they strike a balance.

Because my latest understanding where Changi today is.

You see Changi was making a lot of money as a government entity.
When they corporatized, the billions of cumulated reserve was all taken by the government.

Now, you go and do, I hand over this airport to you.

Laporan Prosiding JK Klra·kira Wang Nagara / BII.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 49 I also was informed that in the case of Singapore, in developing the fourth terminal.

It's going to be huge terminal, 65 million passengers.

They are working very closely with a GLC as well, one of the big land and property development companies.
We can see that they are also going in a big way on commercialization.

I think shopping mall is the number one priority in that.

You can see that trend is move- because as an airport as you see, to move on passenger service charge, taxing the passenger is always an issue.

You have to strike a balance, but where you going to get the revenue from.

It will actually be commercial revenue.

The commercial revenue then you are talking about shops.
Your timbalan earlier had mentioned to me that it is like a shopping mall rather than an airport.

There is a limit by which you can go because you see as far as the DCA is concern, being a regulator; we want to make sure that the flow of passenger is not impedded.

You can have many shops as possible tetapi janganlah bubuh kerusi sampai sekat tempat ruang orang berjalan.
I think that is the balance that we have to strike because if you look at MAHB today, revenue per passengers from the commercial side is not as good or as high as some of the much commercialized airport.

Like in the case of London, revenue per passenger from commercial revenue is very high.

Meaning that people buy, people shop, people drink semua itu.

So, that's what they are trying to do.

But in doing so, there is also a certain limit.


Ini kerana tadi pun Yang Berhormat bangkit ini- apa ini sudah jadi gerai, kedai.

So, macam bazaar.

So, these are the thing that airport will have to continue to be very carefullah how to strike a balance.

Jadi, at the end of the day it's striking a balance.

There is always a price.

The moment you push the price beyond a certain level where the passengers or the user refuse to bear it, that's when you get into trouble.
So, the question is whether the price is right- are we not out pricing ourselves in the international environment because airport business is already very competitive.

They cannot jual satu botol ini pada satu harga.

The passenger knows whether to buy here or not to buy here or buy on board the aircraft or buy in Heathrow.

Tuan Pengerusi: Interestingly, how was the shop doing?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Sorry?

Tuan Pengerusi: Interestingly, how was the shop doing, KLlA2?
Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I think in general they are doing well but they are shops.

You see today macam ini sebab it's a tender system, kan .

So, mereka masuk tender.

So, hari ini ramai daripada kedai-kedai datang cakap, "Oh, berasaskan kepada business yang sedia ada, kami punya kedai jauh sedikit.

Tak cukup ."

They are coming back and ask for reduction in rental which is also an issue for MAHB sebab when you tender at the price, you award the tender to the highest bidder.
Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNegara / BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 50 Kalau you turunkan you punya kadar, the guy who did not win the tender will go after you.

So, this a constant challenge to the organization as such.

Tuan Pengerusi: Ada complaint kah?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ada.

Sampai ke Timbalan Menteri-Menteri.

In fact my advice to the minister is that it's a tender system- unless you get rid of the tender system.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: This one I fully support.

Okay.
Okay.

They tender for it, they pay until their contract ends or they can have early termination.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: You see you have an alternative, like we understand also from Changi or some airport.

What they do is because they also see the pitfalls of the tender system.

So, dia bid dulu harga tingg i. Dapat dulu, kemudian datang balik minta macam-macam.

So, what they did was they go and find the best retailer or the best restaurants in town.

Dia bincang dengan dia.


Ini tempatnya seluas besar begini- you nak tak?

If you want how much you are willing to invest?

You tell us first.

• 1350 Then we talk about the price.

We fix a bowl of mee, a bowl of what and what.

It just a different way of doing it.

Akan tetapi kalau kita buat macam itu di sini pun tak boleh juga.

Orang cakap ini direct nego ini, you cari kawan yang kaya dan basar.

Tuan Pengerusi: Okey Datuk, thank you very much.


That was the issue that I being trying to bring up way to the last one ... [Ketawa] Akan tetapi you dah cakap dah.

So the allegation is ya lah, somebody was preferably help to win the tender lepas itu baru dia cari tenant untuk nak isi tempat itu, so that was also another issue.

So now you are saying the tender was done up a board.

No issue ya?

Open tender, okey fine.

I hope after this kelonggaran daripada segi sewa dan sebagainya tak diberi ya.
Jangan layan, fasal kalau layan sahaja, saya rasa PAC akan panggil.

That was important problem in our job is collusion .

Things have been tendered but then if is colluded years later, we don't know.

So these issues you know I hope the shop lot that has been tendered out, please fulfill the agreement.

Don't give them a chance if not nanti we will also had a perception that something is not right going on there about the shops.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Just to confirm, Datuk.


MAHB has return to the government for an increase in PSC charges to be equal to KLiA the main terminal?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: You see YB, if I may explain since you are raising a quite important issue already.

You have a situation today where this terminal that we built is new and it consist quite a lot of facilities .
Now if you look at this terminal building compare to the LCCT which is supposed to be from the very beginning a temporary solution to cater for the LCCT.

It is not MAHB.

They represented a number of airlines that operate here.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara / BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 51 lATA raised this as an issue that this creates a situation of unfair competition.

So we have to look at the issue from that angle.


They said if, okay I give an example they say a flight from Kuala to a Lumpur to Singapore where the fare is very competitive today.

RM35 makes a different passenger.

So there is competitive advantage that has been created by you not having a charge on a parity basis.

Now, it is an issue.

They can file it to MyCC, Malaysia Competition Commission.
At the same time you must remember that under the air services agreement, there's A Fair Competition Clause where the airport or the government cannot do anything that create unfair competition.

Assuming that British Airways is flying here although they do not have a low cost carrier that fly from the low cost terminal, they can file it to the British Government purely on ground of principle and the British Government can act on it.
So, not such a simple issue that we can harga sini lain sikit, harga sana lain sikit because you must be seen to be fair.

It is an issue... Tuan Pengerusi: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara].

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: In fact open sky is very open, entire ... Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: No, it depend on the number of countries that we have.

Yang ada country Vietnam.


In the case, in UK we have actually signed but we have not rectified.

It is an open sky agreement with the UK.

Tuan Pengerusi: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So I hope I answer the question.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: I ada ... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: It's not a question of MAHB nak kita bagi sebegitu.

It's a principle that we have to honour.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: I understood the answer.

I just disagree with the principal behind it.


We have been every different show pricing for last 15 years and the differential has actually benefited Malaysia as a whole because entire travel international has increase as a result of this differential low cost aviation business.

So by removing industry, the traveling domestic and that differential now, it will negatively affect our aviation industry .
I mean we can differ on opinion, I just telling you this .... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Ya, I understand.

I means that the argument is put forward but at the same time MAS also saying kalau you tak nak kurangkan itu, you kurangkan yang semua ataupun kami pindah pergi ke situ, lebih murah.

Ir.

Mohd.

Zaifuddin Idris: [Menyampuk] Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNagara!
8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 52 Datuk Seri Long See Wool: At the same times, Firefly, they operate from Subang, cakap kami di sini pun bayar RM70, tak ada kurang penumpang pun.

So the questions actually bounce out, we have to analyze whether that RM35 in actuality would diminished passenger volume.

Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: But you say yourself earlier that RM35 make a significant different for passenger.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Va, true.

To a certain extent, to a certain extent, yes.


So is the question of no and yes but at the same times you create unfair pricing.

Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: Don't want to beleaguer the point.

We have our positions that not need to extend... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So at least I explain because later on kalau dibangkit nanti PAC panggillagi but you will be calling a different person ... [Ketawa] Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: It's good, it's good.
Okay, following that just want to go back to the statement made by MAHB earlier, the last visit to PAC, yang berkata bahawa base on PSC sekarang, the charges sekarang, tidak ada keperluan untuk menaikkan PSC berbanding dengan kos operasi.

That's means base on the current service charges, it is sufficient for MAHB to more than recover cost of operating KLlA2.

Is that still a fair statement base on the transaction that happening today?

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Would not be fair for me to comment on that.
Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: No, no, for MAHB.

Data' Abd Hamid Mohd Ali: I think that statement was made by our CFO... [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara] Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Is that position still stand now base on the numbers that coming in for the last five month income from the rental, from the airport.

Is that still a fair position that's no need financially for MAHB to increase the PSC at the airport to cover the cost of building the airport?
Datuk Seri Long See Wool: VB., macam inilah, the other factor I need to mentions is kita kenakan passenger service charge kepada penumpang yang berlepas ke Kuala Lumpur, kita pun tak lupa separuh daripada penumpang yang keluar dari sini merupakan rakyat asing.

So isu kalau kita murah, there are other national that benefited from it.

So isunya ialah kalau you lihat daripada segi apa negara mereka itu kenakan ke atas penumpang kita, especially in the West, there is no question of them subsidizing.
Akan tetapi kita pula yang kalau kita bagi murah, mereka itu keistimewaan mereka dapat.

So in a way kalau macam itu, if it involves issue of subsidy, we actually SUbsidizing travel dan juga melibatkan separuhnya orang asing.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: We are subsidizing travel with their- if I may use the term lah I'm not using the term let say kalau I borrow the word.

I'm not saying this subsidilah.


Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 53 Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Yup I'll just have that on record.

Okey, last bit I think Datuk is aware that we are invited Air Asia and KLIACS to come and give some their views as well.

I just I mean it was a long thing I just want to point out few things that they mention as to see whether there is any respond or whether they give misleading information that MAHB wants to correct, okay.
I'll just read them up.

KLIACS, they said that konsep pembinaan KLlA2 yang ditetapkan adalah finger pier concept sebelum di tender.

So mereka tetapkan skop sebagai finger pier concept sebanyak lapan reka bentuk telah dikemukakan di mana tujuh reka bentuk menggunakan finger pier concept seperti yang ditetapkan di dalam RFB.

Manakala satu reka bentuk menggunakan satellite concept.

Bagaimanapun reka bentuk satellite concept yang tidak mengikut ketetapan dipilih untuk pembinaan KLlA2.
Is that fair statement from KLiACS?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid Mohd.

Ali: Fair statement because that finger pier was base on the NACO master plan.

So there's an evolution criteria that we use to select the best configuration .

Number one is how you accommodate these 72 gates that required.

Finger pier you can not do that because there's a limit to that and that finger pier they base on multi terminal concept, if pier RM15 juta, RM15 juta, RM15 juta.

So there's some issue regards to that.


So that's why we carry out the evaluation.

We tabulate clearly the best option that meet the long term requirement of KLlA2.

That's why the current concept was selected.

Tuan Pengerusi: One question.

Daripada tujuh, tidakkan enam submit ikut NACO, satu tidak submit, selepas itu you pilih.

Ada tidak collusion yang berlaku?

Betul ya?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid Mohd.

Ali: Sebabnya yang lain itu dia ikut bulat-bulat master plan.

Tuan Pengerusi: I tahu.


Itu yang jadi tanda tanya kepada kita.

Maknanya you jemput tujuh.

Enam ikut NACO, ikut apa yang you taruk lah sebagai you punya spec kant you pun requirement.

Sekali you boleh pilih yang tidak ikut.

Dalam pandangan kita terus fikir bahawa ada collusion di antara penender yang menang dengan management pasal hanya management sahaja yang tahu macam mana hendak buat keputusan selanjutnya.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid Mohd.


Ali: Sebab NACO berasaskan kepada ... Beberapa Ahli: [Ketawa] Dato' Abd.

Hamid Mohd.

Ali: Because NACO berasaskan kepada operasi di negara mereka di mana ia tidak memerlukan 100% gate stand .

Dia boleh allow bus remote stand by bus and all that tetapi kita AirAsia memerlukan ke semua 68 gates to be contact stand.

Jadi asas ini juga penting.


Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara / Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 54 Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Saya juga difahamkan bahawa bagi kebanyakan reka bentuk, tujuh yang ikut finger pier concept itu kebanyakan mereka juga patuh kepada contact stand finger pier tetapi betul memang development secara berfasa.

Okey, I just read you some of the other comments relating to this point.
Konsep reka bentuk satellite concept memerlukan bangunan perlu dibina tinggi supaya pesawat dapat melaluinya.

So you have the sky bridge.

Pembinaan bridges dan sebuah tunnel yang menyambungkan sateHt dengan bangunan terminal juga menjadi keperluan.

Pembinaan menara kawalan juga menjadi keperluan kerana ketinggian bangunan menghalang pandangan di landasan.
So the conclusion banyak kos boleh dijimatkan sekiranya finger pier concept digunakan untuk pembinaan KLlA2.., that was the conclusion, fair remarks from KLIACS.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Tidak kerana requirement bertukar.

Kita perlukan control tower kerana control tower yang ada sekarang tidak dapat meHhat berasaskan kepada assessment daripada Jabatan Penerbangan Awam.
Dia tidak dapat melihat ke hUjung landasan runaway 3 kerana pada asalnya runaway 3 hanyalah 2.5 kilometer sahaja, tetapi pada hari ini kita bina 4 kilometer, jauh.

Jarak asal adalah 1.5 atau 1.8 antara runaway 2 dan runaway 3 tetapi kita anjakkan kepada 2.2 kilometer jarak.

Jadi dia lebih jauh.

Jadi mengatakan yang menara kawalan tidak perlu dan sebagainya adalah tidak benar kerana ketika PMC dilantik, projek ini masih awal kita masih membincangkan mengenai bajet RM2 bilion dan sebagainya.
Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Isu satellite concept dibina lebih tinggi itu benar?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Berasaskan kepada konsep asal ya memang dia rendah tetapi apabila kita mengambil kira keperluan trafik pengasingan antara arrival dan depariure, maka kita perlukan ruang yang besar terutamanya untuk menempatkan bagasi automatik yang memerlukan space untuk menempatkan sotters.

Pada peringkat awal memang benda ini tidak ada, all manual sotteiion.
Ketika PMC dilantik dan membuat spesifikasi perkara ini memang tidak ada.

Jadi setelah projek ini berjalan, maka benda ini timbul perubahan kerana AirAsia memerlukan full automated Baggage Handling System.

Jadi kita perlu naikkan ketinggian bangunan untuk menempatkan sistem bagasi.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Okey, saya beralih kepada apa yang disebut oleh AirAsia terutamanya mengenai fully automated Baggage Handling System (BHS) di sini.
Mereka berkata kepada PAC bahawa AirAsia telah memilih option 2 iaitu semi automated system yang lebih murah daripada fully automated system.

Keputusan MAHB untuk menggunakan fully automated system adalah tidak berkaitan dengan AirAsia.

MAHB juga telah mengakui pilihan AirAsia untuk option 2 pada 10 Oktober 2011 melalui sepucuk sural.

So ini bercanggah dengan kenyataan Datuk mengenai pilihan automated baggage system.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNagara /8#.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 55 Dato' Abd.
Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Untuk fully automated dengan semi automated tidak jauh berbeza dan kita menjangkakan jika kita buat fully automated sekarang, maka kos akan datang kita boleh jimatkan.

Sebab itulah sebagai airport operator yang berpengalaman, kita tidak mahu lagi terjerat dengan short term requirement seperti yang berlaku di LCCT.

Kita buat carousel system untuk baggage, AirAsia kata dekat kita we want dedicated direct feeder.
Jadi kita kata kalau you buat direct feeder, every check in counter, you kena letak dua orang.

There are 70 check in counters, you kena 140 orang untuk satu waktu.

Dia tidak dengar dia suruh kita buat juga, kita buat.

Akhirnya selepas setahun beroperasi, kita kena buka semula terpaksa kos RM3 juta.

Jadi yang ini pun sama juga kami rasa apa yang kami buat adalah wajar, maka kami teruskan dengan fully automated dan comply to the requirement of 45 every passenger per and hour.
That semi automated probably up to 30 million, you need to go for fUlly automated after that.

Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: Okey that statement is fair.

Hanya saya hendak confirm keputusan untuk pergi fully automated adalah keputusan MAHB dan bukanlah permintaan daripada AirAsialah.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Permintaan daripada AirAsia kerana kami ada surat daripada AirAsia yang menyatakan keperluan tersebut.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Adakah mereka menyokong semi automated Baggage Handling System?
Tuan Pengerusi: There is a letter lah together with the report as I say whole IKRAM tu lah.

Report IKRAM itu make sure is about runaway, apron and taxi way the whole pembinaanlah bukan sahaja on building.

Tuan Tony Pua Klam Wee: Okey soalan saya terakhir berkaitan dengan soalan awal itu KLiACS.

AirAsia berkata bahawa permintaan mereka dari sejak awal bukan pertengahan.
Mereka telah pun meminta satu lapangan terbang yang boleh memuatkan ataupun berkapasiti 30mppa, million passengers per annum yang boleh diperbesarkan kemudian kepada mungkin RM45 juta.

So itu merupakan dasar dan asas untuk mereka bentuk KLlA2 dari awal.

So isu yang selalu dibangkitkan oleh MAHB di mana lapangan terbang telah pun diperbesarkan half way mengakibatkan kenaikan kos itu tidak berasas.

Itu desakan yang telah pun diberikan.


Kos meningkat hanya mengenai the inside of the airport and not the overall design of the airport.

• 1410 Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: Ada senarai AirAsia wish list di mana mereka mengatakan they want, mereka berkehendakkan 68 contact stands.

Jadi 68 contact stands kalau you translate into annual volume is 45 million passengers per annum.
Jadi AirAsia ada Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNegara/ BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 56 mengemukakan forecast mereka dan sebagainya di peringkat awal kajian ini.

Kalau kita ikut asalnya 55 stands sahaja yang perlu dibina, tetapi kita buat 68.

Nilai 55 equivalent to lebih kurang dalam 30 MPPA.

Jadi kalau kita bina 30 sahaja dan tidak sampai 5 tahun, you perlu start expand the airport already.
Jadi untuk mengelak tersebut, kita ikut kehendak dia 68, we translate back to the size you know that is about 45 MPPA.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: No.

I think the point was mereka memang kata mereka minta 68.

Mereka kata mereka minta 68, mereka minta 68 dari sejak awal.

So they never ask anything less than 68 dan tender yang dikeluarkan oleh pihak MAHB adalah untuk 68 contact point, the based.
So the point was that at the point when the budget was still RM2 billion, memang reka bentuk adalah untuk 68 ataupun 70 contact point dan bukannya untuk 55.

So on the justification that MAHB ada untuk peningkatan kos adalah bahawa kapasiti airport telah pun meningkat halfway.

So what they are saying is that the capacity always the same, it never change halfway.
Tuan Pengerusi: 68 does not means 45 million because using on the size of the plane, you use Airbus 380 you can bring in more passengers... [Disampuk] Up to.

If you use a smaller aircraft, 68 gates do not mean 45 million passengers.

It is depends on piawaian dan sukatan ukuran yang you pakai.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: The main point is that they was never ask in the middle of the project expansion of the capacity.

It always 68 or 70 contact points from the start.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.


Ali: We started discussion with the AirAsia way back into 2008 already about the requirement.

On 2009 when government announced, we have a series of meeting with them until when we called tender in 2010.

We started this project in September 2010, it is halfway through already.

At that time yes, we already fixed because we already discussed along the way.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Jadi fixed 68 contact points?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Yalah.


It is because kita sudah pertengahan.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: So that is what I am saying.

So it has been fixed 68 contact points, then why it in 2012 when the price increased, the excuse was the capacity was increase to 45 mil/ion when it is already 68 contact point?

Tuan Pengerusi: Data' faham soalan Yang Berhormat Petaling Jaya Utara?

68 gates itu is nothing to do with the capacity of passengers.

Daripada awal memang sudah 68 gates.


Sekarang ini you punya alasan itu yang berubah daripada 30 kepada 45.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Terminal building is only 30% of the entire cost of the project.

The bulk or the cost is infrastructure, the runway especially.
Itu pun sama juga, daripada 2.5 kilometer kepada 4 kilometer because AirAsia berkehendakkan supaya sarna dengan runway 2, Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNegaraI BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 57 sama panjang, walaupun from statistic is only 95%, only code CA aircraft yang tidak memerlukan.

Akan tetapi kita terpaksa akur dengan kemahuan mereka dan mereka juga berkehendakkan supaya runway ini dijarakkan daripada 1.8 kilometer kepada runway 2 sehingga 2.2 kilometer.
Jadi, kawasan footprint meningkat dua kali ganda menyebabkan kerja earlh works meningkat dan infrastruktur yang lain juga meningkat.

Jadi terminal building sebahagian daripada kos tersebut.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: No other question.

Tuan Pengerusi: Ada apa-apa question?

Saya hendak tambah sedikit, statement ini penting.

Is MAHB customer-centric tidak?

Fikir customer firsn Apa bukti you boleh kemukakan bahawa you fikir fasal customer dahulu?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.


Ali: We conducted airporl opinion survey every month where the feedback from the passenger are access and it is our headline KPI.

We have to achieve cerlain mark in order to meet our KPI and also this is as I mentioned Datuk just now also, parl of operating agreement, we must attend cerlain performance standard.

We always attend through the request of the passengers.

We have taskforce looking at this service element.

There are 32 service elements in that survey.


It is covered right from the transporl until the passengers board the plane.

At the moment now, we are taking action to install 22 walkalators at KLiA 2 as parl of this initiative to improve the passengers comforl and plus the buggies are running around to ... Tuan Pengerusi: Dari awal you tidak fikir fasal hal itu bukan?

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Pardon?

Tuan Pengerusi: Masa you buat airporl ini, you tidak fikir hal airporl ini besar betul bukan?
Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Masa itu we were concern about cost because people said you should not exceed RM2 billion.

Jadi kita buat value management... Tuan Pengerusi: That is my question tadi.

If you budget is RM2 billion, tetapi you incorporate customer punya requirement and satisfaction in need then you would actually incorporate all this amenities inside dan sebagainya within that RM2 billion cost.

Akan tetapi you were more interested in build the airporl for RM2 billion.

Dato' Abd.
Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]

Tuan Pengerusi: Betullah.

Itu maksud saya tadi.

Soalan saya itu sebenarnya banyak isu.

la bukan soal passenger yang hendak naik kapal terbang, soal dengan airline sekali fasal saya Iihat hubungan MAHB dengan AirAsia dan sebagainya- actually AirAsia is 90% your customer at KLlA2 pun.

Semua kapal terbang AirAsia sahaja, tidak ada kapal terbang lain pun saya lihat.
The hope and the promise you kata hendak premium airline to come over, I think selepas siapa telah naik KLlA2, I do not think the premium airline would prefer to fly from KLlA2.

Ini kerana jauh sangat, KLIA 1 lagi dekat untuk hendak jalan, hendak move around dan sebagainya.

Apa yang kurang ialah kedai, KLIA Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara / BiI.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 58 1.
Akan tetapi itu pun saya risau juga, kalau banyak sangat kedai, banyak sangat orang, ada terrorist datang bawak dan letak bom di tengah-tengah situ sahaja, you will have the major security issue there.

Security is very lack.

Tidak ada orang tanya who are you apa semua dan saya Iihat kebanyakan passenger dalam KLlA2 itu adalah orang luar, bukan orang kita.

I think that also another issue you should put more emphasize on.
It is because if you have at one time berpuluh ribu orang naik terminal especially sebelum you masuk imigresen.

I am sure selepas imigresen you sudah ada you punya sekuriti dan sebagainya.

Oi luar ini, di tempat orang makan, kedai dan sebagainya, ada orang letak bom sahaja, you will have a lot of people who are dead in that area, di kawasan luar itu.

Itu satu lagi isu yang saya hendak sebut.


Isu yang terakhir saya hendak sebut ialah Tan Sri Bashir ada sebut fasal hendak buat satelit terminal yang baru untuk KLiA.

Tahu.

Akan tetapi sekarang ini kalau saya lihat passengers punya numbers dalam KLiA itu sendiri sudah kira lenganglah airport itu.

la cuma sebuk awal pagi dan lewat malam.

Other times of the day, kosong.

Mungkin disebabkan oleh market condition, kedudukan kita jugafah, di tengah-tengah antara Australia dan sebagainya.
Kalau kita hendak guna KLiA untuk hendak develop our regional route pun susah sekarang kerana sudah ada KLlA2.

Jadi persoalan saya, adakah wajar hendak membuat terminal satelit baru ini dalam keadaan sekarang di mana you punya market, your business plan ini sudah berubah tremendously because of pembinaan KLlA2 ini.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: That is just planning.


It is part of our long-term planning because KLiA 1... Tuan Pengerusi: Tan Sri kata hendak pecah tanah semua, hendak buat kontrak sudah.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Itu I am not aware.

We are still looking at the option because satellite B kalau berasaskan kepada master plan asal, sememangnya perlu dibina apabila traffic mencecah 25 juta.

Tahun lepas kita sudah mencapai 25.7 juta... Tuan Pengerusi: [Bercakap tanpa menggunakan pembesar suara.]
Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

All: No.

Even that also now, we partly will be pindah sanalah.

We are still reviewing.

There are options beside satellite B, you can also extend the contact pier.

Because right now when you manage airport, you are managing peak actually.

la macam restoran juga waktu lunch hour kalau you ada meja 10, 10 itu sahajalah yang you business.

So yang lain akan go away.

• 1420 So, that is why now, during peak hours, all the others satellite bay is fully occupied.
Contact pier pun, I think about 80%-90% occupied.

Jadi, itu masalahnya.

Kalau kita hendak terus be the preferred half for premium airline, we need to provide the capacity for this airline to come.

So, one of Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira Wang Negara / Bil.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 59 the option is to build Satellite B or to extend the contact pier.

There is still an ample space contact pier yang mana parkir apron sudah ready, you just extend the building.
So, these are the option yang kita masih bincangkan dan juga tengok pada kemampuan syarikat untuk membiayai kos pembinaan.

Ini masih di bincang pada peringkat awal dan masih belum diputuskan lagi.

Tuan Pengerusi: Fasal Tan Sri itu hari dia come over, masa datang they are vel}' bullish boleh achieve the figures.

Bila tanya balik macam mana dapatkan figure 45 millions itu dia kata, "Your own internal projection", bukan?
Akan tetapi bila sekarang ini sudah siap airport itu saya tengok macam sudah ada cannibalization pula KLlA2, bila low cost airline sudah pindah ke sana.

So, KLIA1 pula yang- untuk saya, underemployed.

Walaupun you kata peak bukan tetapi peak itu you baleh transfer pada non-aerobridge punya parking base.

So, okeylah.

Dato' Abd.

Hamid bin Mohd.

Ali: Kita banyak... Tuan Pengerusi: Banyak yang parking kapal terbang yang simpan-simpan itu semua bukan.

Banyak.
Banyak.

Itu sahaja saya rasa sudah ada lebih kurang 25-30 bays di luar itu yang parking tanpa ada aerobridge.

Jadi itulah, saya ucapkan ... Ada saalan lain?

Yang Berharmat Petaling Jaya Utara?

Kalau tidak ada apa saalan lain saya ucapkan terima kasih kepada Datuk dan juga wakil daripada ERL dengan MAHB.

Sebenarnya Datuk, tujuan kita panggil Datuk pada hari ini dengan MAHB adalah untuk memberi peluang untuk menjawab kali terakhir sebelum kita siapkan laparan ini.
To be fair to you, we started off with you, now we have called AirAsia, KLIACS, apa semua, now, we close with you.

So we are tl}'ing to be fair here, try to get the best picture.

Your arguments have been quite acceptable in many respects but there are also arguments yang I think we were have to consider in the PAC or as part of our own report.

Thank you vel}' much Datuk.


Sorl}' to impose on you, another time for three and half hours and I wish you happy future, no longer carl}'ing the problem of running ministl}'... [Ketawa] And we thank you vel}' much for appearing to it.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Just in response.

Thank you vel}' much, terima kasih kepada semua PAC.

We understand the PAC punya position is in public interest, in interest of user.
Saya hanya satu sahaja minta PAC, yang gambar-gambar tadi itu which you showed, if we can have a copy, we also want to be give the real picture yang adanya gambar.

Kalau sudah lama itu, kalau sudah repair, if you reproduce the picture you give a perception as if is still there.

So, just that to give the current, the most... Tuan Pengerusi: I do not think it is appropriate for us to include pictures in our report, maybe.
Because all reports ... Datuk Seri Long See Wool: If that is not the case, then it is not an issue.

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kira WangNegara /8il.32 2014 PAC 30.9.2014 60 Tuan Pengerusi: ...Supposed to be evergreen.

It is not supposed to include snapshot of time when perkara itu sudah dibetulkan.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: I did not know that.


Dengan gambar nampak lebih, not so boringlah kalau ada gambar... [Ketawa] Okey, dengan itu... Tuan Pengerusi: Hendak letak boleh Datuk... [Ketawa] Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So, kalau dengan itu kalau tidak ada hal, saya mengucapkan terima kasih sekali lagi.

So if Secretariat, if there is any return answers you want from us, please communicate then we will do... Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: We just need the report, particularly the ICAO and the IKRAM's report.
That is all.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: Okay.

Tuan Tony Pua Kiam Wee: Thank you.

Datuk Seri Long See Wool: So dengan itu saya mengucapkan terima kasih kepada semua, thank you.

Tuan Pengerusi: Thank you.

[Mesyuarat ditangguhkan pada pukul 2.24 petang.]

Laporan Prosiding JK Kira-kiraWangNagars/ Bil.32 2014