Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697796509538.pdf (Guyana)
i733 l1icmbe,·s Present Lm1sr.un'E Couxcrt Gol'f.

A'ot,'ce 1,34- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL MESSAGE No.

14 FRIDAY, 7�h MARCH, 1947.

The Council met at 2 p.m., His Excel­ lency the Officer Administering ernment, siclent, the Gov­ Pre-- Mr. W. L. Heape, C.M.G., in the Chair.

PRESENT: The President.

His Excelleney the Officer Administering W.L.

Heape, C.M.G.

the Government, Mr The Hon.

the Colonial Secretary, Mr. D. J. Parkinson (acting>.

Tl,e Hon.

the Attorney-General, Mr. F. W. Holder, K.C.

The Hen.
The Hen.

the Colonial Treasurer.

Mr. E. F. Mcbavid, C.B.E.

The Hon.

F. J. Seaford.

C.B.E.

<Georgetown North).

The Hon.

H. N. Critchlow (Nominated).

The Hon.

J. Gonsalves, O.B.E.

(Georg·etown South).

The Hon.

Peer Bacchus (Western Berbicel. '

The Hon.

C. R. Jacob (North Western District).

The Hon.

A. M. Edun <Nominated).

The Hon.

V. Roth (Nominated>.

The Hon.

T. T. Thompson (Nominated).


Honourable Members of the Legisla­ tive Council, you to of $364 to Mr. Ram­ Foreman-Ranger gratuity retil'etl I have the honour to invite approve of the payment of a compas­ sionate of the laggan, Area, Canals Nos.

1 ancl 2 Drainage who was in the employment of the and the Canals Folder Authority Board for Drainage over 25 years and whose service was terminated of 1945 at the at the end age ot 63 years on account of ill­ health.
and Irrigation ser­ recommend his retirement 2.

The Drainage and Irrigation Boa1d strongly Mr. Ram­ laggan for a gratuity, not only on the ground of long and meritorious vice, but also because on account of ill-health has been brought about by exposure in all kinds of weather due to the nature of his duties.

In these circumstances the Executive is deserving sideration proval, a compassionate advise that his case of sympathetic and.

subject to your ap­ payment to him of recommend gratuity.
Council con­ rates, he would on retirement for superannuation with Legislative Coun­ n XXV of the 21st of 3.

Had Mr. Ramlaggan's wages been paid from public funds instead of drainage have been eligible in accordance cil's Resolutio August, and the special case, the Council is invited him a compassionate tl1e equivalent is the maximum respect the Legisl;;.tive mentioned above.
1940, and having regard to this of his to grant of $364, of one year's pay, which gratuity payable in under Re11olution of his length of service circumstanceio Council's gratuity The Hon.

W. J. Raatgever <Nominated>.

The Hon.

G. A. C. Farnum (Nominated).

W.L.

HEAPE, Officer Administering the Government.

The Clerk read prayers.

of the meeting of the on the 6th March, 1947, a1:, The min11tes Cou!lcil held P-Finted and circulated, and confirmed.
were taken as read GOVERNMENT HOUSE, British Guiana, 7th March, 1947.

CO:\[PAS8IOX.\TE TO l\fo.

RAJff,.\G(U:,,; GRA1'l71TY The COLONIAL TREASURER gave COi\CPASSI0.11.

"ATE ({r:ATtJl1'Y FOR notice of the following· motion :- JfR.

RA:\rLAGoAx The COLONIAL TREASURER, <Mr.

McDavidl communlcnte;I messa.ge :- · , the following That, with reference to the Officer· Mess­ the Government's Administering age No.
14 of the 7th March, 1947, this council approves of the payment of $364 t:, of a compassionatr gratuity 1780 P.U.

U uarnnfN 7 .\[All{'Tf.

l!J.!7.

l-'1n1.

(I ( Hl'Z)C(II,) JJtlL .I.

lull retired Foreman Area.

and Irrigation Mr. Ramlaggan, Ranger of the Canals Nos.

1 and 2 Drainage and to talrn the money remaining into the public till and to leave public funds to carry any risks that there may be for any future losses.
Why I said to put the money in the public till is that the Bill PUBI,J(' OFFICERS' GUARA;,,,;TEE provides revenue.

should meet the losses.

that the money should go to general revenue Consequently ORDER OF THE DAY (REPEAL) Bn,L, 1947.

F'[�XD The Committee has accepted instead the view of tak­ it to allocate the same thing· fund and keep it there for and has re­ moreso on the purpose.
I may say that has Colony of Trinidad that it would be preferable ing· the money into revenue to a special any particular the neighbouring clone precisely cently passed an Ordinance lines the Committee has recommended.

The other parts Committee to the Bill following tions.

With that explanatio right mission away and resume consideration clauses that clause 4 be recommitted time.

that we move in Committee of the amendments on those considera­ of the Bill.
It will be necessary of the report of the Select are consequential n I ask per­ at the same The PRESIDENT: When we go into of these what is the position Committee.

amendments ?

The COLONIAL TREASURER : we had stopped at clause 4.

I shall have to ask for the recommittal and possibly clause 4. something of the long title else preceding The PRESIDENT : Your intention is and stop in the to pass the other clauses Committee stage !

The COLONIAL TREASURER : My intention is to go right through.
The PRESIDENT : Have you the amendments ready?

The COLONIAL TREASURER: Yes, sir.

They are in the report.

Trea­ The PRESIDENT : Mr. Colonial to resume consid­ surer, are you prepared eration Fund (Repeal) Bill ?

of the Public Ot'ficers' Gua,rantee on its deliberations.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: Yes, I on the report of the Committee by one hon.

Member that instead of Council left off was the sug­ of this fund into a Select Committee of to to go into the I tabled the report of sir.
When this Bill was in Committee the Council at clause 4 it was decided appoint Bill, and yesterday that Committee t-hink, sir.

I am in order in making a statement at this stage.


The point on which the Committee g:estion of taking the surplus general credit of a special the purpose of meeting losses by reason of the default also suggested su1·plus for the direct bene­ other be appropriated and one themselves, fit of Civil Servants of the su3'.l,'estions macl.e was that this money shculd be used for the purpose assisting· a housing of Civil Sei'n:mts ing scholarships nature.
that the balance should in some way 01· revenue it should be placed at the fund to be used for of Public Officers.

It was in another themselves ancl other benefits scheme for the benefit quarter of or for grant­ of that The Select Committee took into con­ to That is to say, the contrilm­ the object of the Bill particu­ from the point of view of what has that this Public Officers' Fund is now in a position sideration la1·ly now transpired Guarantee carry itself.
tions which were made to it by Public Officers, except for the small deduction ten per cent.

which is made from these contributions, Officers 'i.

!1emselves that the fidelity is obvious without can be g·uaranteed for any contribution the o;,_'ject the second reacling, Officers-the balance lying· to Public at their crectH of Public Officers calling of the Bill, as has been said in are returnable to the It is to restore on their retirement.

on them of at all.
on them of at all.

Consequently Mr. SEAFORD : I am sorry I was not here when the second reading I am not quite sure what are the funds available, of that is, if we accept the Committee's recommcnciaiton was ta!{en.

which says and the second point arising out " ........ of a special shall be 11laced to the credit fund which shall be re� 17.37' P.O.

G-narnn Ice P11111l (Rcpe1fl) .lJ,:Z/, 1738- in the interest involved accepted is·.
that funds principle the Treasury we have the Repati·iation For Fund That Fund other than calls for.

In this case Fund ought fact tl1e like this one ought to be preserved.

instance, which is governed by Statute.

cannot be used for any purpose what the Statute -I will give an instance-this to go bacl, into of the Colony as· a whole, because I do or adopted not find this principle in any other case.
For instance, the Rice fund there will be Board-the Marketing and used by the Board for accumulated which the Board thinks purposes we have $135,000 tbis case preserved for certain public or tl1e taxpayers ceiving any benefit the Select Committee is wise in this case.

If we accept or adopt the ciple of funds like this being not preservecl but should go to augment the Colony's finances, then I think the Select Committee has erred in this instance.

ought to be preserved, of no use.


As a matter of fact the hon.

Fund should the Colonial be used for scholarships poses.

That gives me- without of this Colony re­ from it.

I do not think which will be the Socialistic because it will be Treasurer I do not think it and other pur­ purposes said the prin­ fit.

In The COLONIAL TREASURER not say that.

I said other people suggested that.


: I did of tained and used for the pw·1Jcse or meeting any losses of public funds that may a.rise in future by r»·operty reason of the default of P<tblic Officers."

fs that expected to be a very large sum?

What amount a.re you going to ?

What is your liability reserve be, and what fund is available going to ?

The PRESIDENT : I think the hon.

the Colonial TreasureT can give an an:,wer.


Mr. SEAFORD : He may f{ive some rough idea, whether it is a million Lhou5a.ncis or what.

or and the second As regards will continue to be invested which is of course of the fund available TREASURER : The The is simple.

after meet­ The r,(JLONIAL answer to the first enquiry balance ing all claims is $135,000, invested, to earn interest.

query, all I can say is that the fidelity of Public Officers has been in a large good.
We have struck measure extremely one or two bad patches in recent especially years through people who to some extent were not in the classification of Public Officers.

The hon.

Member would not want me to express On the whole the claims against Officers' Guarantee small.

is so intense there is no dishonesty the claims against haust it for a very long time, and there is good reason to think it will continue for many years and will grow rather than diminish.

that honesty in the Public Service at all.


I this Fund will not ex-· I do not want to suggest Fund are extremely that feel that or character what I mean.

the Public Mr. EDUN : That gives me the idea and, therefore, that the fund belongs Col-any to the Treasury payer.

to the people of the back it should revert of the tax­ in the interest The COLONIAL TREASURER : I do not think we a.re in order.

I move thllt we go into Committee.


Mr. EDUN : I am somewhat astounded I think that the Select did not carefully that the Fund should lapse as those Officers to learn that the Pund is only about $135,000.

Knowing that this Fund is such an extensive one Committee go into the matter, because there was wisdom in the provision into the Treasury, who contributed receive cers who are now working for Gov­ ernment and are Civil Servants may do so.

For that reason I think it will be equitable Treasury.
provision for this Fund to lapse into the That was the reason why the was put there.

As a matter of any benefit but.

maybe the Offi­ to the Fund will not The PRESIDENT : I think it should Mauritius.

that the balance Mem-.

to the hGn.

Nominated be explained ber that this Bill is based on the Bills passed in other Colonies - of the Nigeria-providing Fund should go to the Treasury, as the hon.

Member himself sai.d that is what should be done.


But when this Bill was introduced the Members of Council who were present were practically and did not agree with it.

They wanted time to consider should be used for some specific it because they felt it purpose unanimous 17J!J l'._U.

u1tarantee "( l\lARCH., · J.,HI-.

nm a r treveat.J .J$Ui -1. t 'l:U by me was appoiNted Nom­ A Select Committee te go into the question.

The hon.
The hon.

inated Member was not here and so is not aware of the fact that the principle he is now raising and that as a result Committee whicl1 adopted of that debate a Select was appointed.

has been already I personally time to time to that fund is, that the Coun­ cil and the general the defalcations into general what it is.

taxpayers are.

At prec,;ent and we do not know revenue will see what it .goes report.
I in any particular Mr. JACOB : May T and kept separately so that the money would not be that while the money it should be and furtlwr say I, too, en­ dorse the Select Committee's was one who stressed should revert to the Treasury eannarl(ed be invested year, when there utilised too, in the general was a deficit.

I stressed, debate that 1m should create a Reserve Fund.

I talrn it, this will be a nuclf:us to the Reserve shortly.

Member for Georgetown ford) is against Fune!.

very the hon.
very the hon.

Fund to be created I am a little the creation of a Reserve surprised North (Mr. Sea­ Mr. SEAFORD : I only asked for in­ no opinion I expressed what­ formation.

ever!

, have very strong views on it.

I have no to the Fund objection to the Treasury, Select Committee consensus second reading being reverted back l::ut the report of the out the is only carrying during the expressed of opinion debate.
fund in Govern­ thrown out and But the The COLONIAL TREASURER : If this Bill is pa!osed as recommended by the Select Committee, the wording of the sec­ tion says this Fund which is contributed to by Public Officers will go to the Treasury.

All that will ha.ppen is that the Treasury will put it in a separate ment's books as originally the amount will go into revenue.
majority the revenue of that _year the tion in the expenditure Treasury should put it in a special Lt is still public funds when it gets to the Treasury.

the misapprehension into public funds.

It is because taxpayer we keep it in a separate is rather than put it into of one year and risk its absorp­ opinion fund.

Mr. ,JACOB : This is the beginning of a Reserve Fund to be created.

Here i3 something to go upon.

It is wrong and unwise to leave the money there.


I thirik the Select Committee what should be done.

I hope the Bill will be passed.

is going to be protected adequately The hon.

Member is under that it does not go the public fund.

very wisely sugges1.ec!

Question put, and agreed to.

Mr. SEA.FORD : The only difference is, it cannot be used on public expenditure; therefore what purpose is it going to grow and be held?

there and grows.
there and grows.

Fo�· it remains to consider - tituled Council resolved itself clause by clause the Bill !n­ into Committee "An Ordinance to repeal the Pub­ Guarantee lic Officers' Chapter 202, and authorize certain contributors."

Fund Ordinance, refunds to Couxcn., r.\" C'o,nrrTTEE.

Clause I-Short Title.

for revenue.

But as Members ask that Mr. FARNUM: I was one who felt that this Fund should be earmarked the benefit of Public Officers.
After hear­ ing the debate and finding that the Officers had everything due to them in this Fund, I quite agree that it should be placed inl;o general it should be put into a fund so that we can see what is happe!1ing· as the hon.
the Colonial Treasurer out it is really GovernmL·nt in a separate fund, I would like to con­ gratulate lucid report Council and, I think, one advantage of having that reserved may say so, all defalcatiom pointed funct but placed which they put before the the Select Committee and charging, that occur from to that fund, on the very if I The COLONIAL TREASURER : I move that clause 1 be recommitted "1946" appearing in the Bill be amended to read "1947."

and Question put, and agreed to.


Clause passed as amended.

Clause 4-Balance to be 11aicl into rc1.1enue.

The COLONIAL TREASURER : 1 move, as indicated in the report of the 1741 P.O.

Gnal'antee LEGISLA'l'!VE .

Com.

:crL F1111cl (Repeal) Bill 1742 that by another $1,000,000.

have this $2,000,000 not actually Sheet.

I think we are off the point .

shown as such in as a reserve, On paper we although the Balance you would pass clause 4 report, The CHAIRMAN : I thinlc so.
The point is, if you accept the principle which is now put to Members by the Select Com­ mittee's as a,mended bers will notice that clause 4 contains the new proposal certain additions It is clearly is the question before Members.

in amendments and (1), (2) and (3).

set out before you, and that in the sheet before you.

Mem­ of sub-clauses the deletion of the revenue Select Committee, words "form part of the general of the Colony" in the last line and the .
substitution of the words "be placed to the creclit Officers' (Defaults) �fter referred lntendecl of the Committee.

of a fund to be styled the Public Reserve Fund herein­ to as the Fund."

That is to carry out the recommendation The CHAIRMAN: An important in that amendment.

is involved principle The COLONIAL TREASURER: Yes; and the marginal note is to be altered to read "Establis 1Defaults) Reserve hment of Public Officers' Fund."
Mr. SEAFORD : I do not thinlc it if we start difference makes the slightest a reserve fund.

$135,000 is not going t<> be a flea's bite t<> this Colony.

I am sur­ prised that the hon.

Member for North Western District realize already.

and a reserve which we lenL to the Imperial That will at least carry us on .for a few months, I hope.

(Mr. Jacob) does not that we have a very big reserve We have a surplus of $2,000,000 Government.

of $5,000,000 Mr .. T.ACOB : I ?.IT!

'.!.

little surprised.


a surplus bal­ at the hon.

Member calling ance a reserve.

Mr. SEAFORD: that as a reserve.

I did not include fund at all.

As a matter of Mr. JACOB : I think.

I a.m right.

Balance.

I have not seen in the Colony's Sheet - perhaps the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer may explain-that has a reserve fact before the last draft estimate sented, plus may be utilized.

that we have a surplus like to know that we have a surplus but so 'far I know we have a reserve I would fund, fund.
we had it clear that a.11 the sur-.

but now it is strange the Colony balance.

was pre­ The COLONIAL TREASURER : I think both hon.

Members are out of order.

It is just a battle of words between Mem­ bers and I am going to add to this battle by reminding the hon.

Members what really happened.

We passed a resoluf;ion in this Council ing H.M. Government !rce of interest.

to create a reserve $1,000,000 We then later increased by lend­ as a loan Mr. JACOB : We have a clause be­ Reserve Fund."
I think we can fore us-clause 4-which states this amount of $135,000 is to be placed to the credit of a fund to be styled "The Public Officers' <Default) stretch this reserve that amount reserve planation surer that we are a little bit that while with a fund too.

I do not accept the ex­ Trea­ the Colony should nave by the hon.

the Colonial fund is going to be created this clause to suggest out of order.
The CHAIRMAN: If you are not out of order, then I say you are extending the scope of this debate to bring in a larger subject.

of this Bill, then you have on to a larger subject.

the Bill.

really been going We want to pass If you approve of the principle a Colony of creating the question Mr. JACOB: I hope to do that, and I have my notes here.

This reserve fund should not only be created in respect of this amount, but we should consider very clearly Reserve Fund as well.

So I am quite in order.


This is the point I want to make.

We have lJeen in the habit in this Colony too often of trying to confuse the issues.

While I am here I will not agree with Government side to try ,and make matters confused and out of order.

I support clause and I trust that after this fund is created and the money is invested it cannot be frittered away but used up to stabilize the finances of the Colony, this Colony will have a reserve fund as most organised businesses have.
so that can be this the Mr. ROTH : I do not agree with the recommendations ancl with the amenclm.ents of the Select Committee moved.

by the .

1947.

Fund (Repeal) Rill 17-H taxpayer We cannot give the general or risk to meet an expenditure fund to all defalca­ lf my memory said that normally the hon.

the Colonial From the it was quite 1743 P.O.

Ouarrrnfce 7 ·l\'fAn.crr, hGn.

the Colonial Treasurer.


debate on the second reading evident that Government had no intention whatever of using it as a special recoup any defalcations.

serves me correctly, Treasurer tions would come out of general revenue, intention but it was not Government's to of any use this Fund for the replacement such defalcation.

y will 1·emember that second reading than one suggesti should on that the surplus be used for the benefit of Public Officers.
benefit all the Public Naturally, it ca.nnot Officers who have subscribed to it be..:ause some of them are dead, but it should cer­ tainly be the principle of the Fund should go to the benefit of Public Officers, their or suc­ dependents cessors, or be placed at the credit of the Widows and Orphans' Your Excelienc during the debate on the of this Bill there was more that tl1e balance Fund.

clerks back.
clerks back.

pay it ou� take out risk insur­ insurance-and a liability of that nature unless there is some quid pro quo.

In commercial offices, of course, and other employees ance-fidelity of their pockets, and they get nothing Public Officers are going to get it free, be­ cause there is this sum of money accumu­ lated anct the public will undertake rislc.

both ways.

If you do w!w.t the hon.

Mem­ ber has suggested.

of this Bill would be destroyed.


You can­ not abandon this Fund and give ha.ck to contribu tors their balances, up the Fund as well.

It would be quite imp;issible The Public Officer cannot have it then the whole basis ancl also keep to do that.

tllat Mr. JACOB: As I understand the is not shown in the this $128,000 books as a surplus-if these books position, Colony's are worth anything.
of the Commit.tee's is made to the "general Colony"-which significant Then I see a note- I notice on page 2 report that reference revenue of the it is is $5,445,597-and how the revenue balances.
thing to do the rig·ht has made provision After all, the money was collected from those officers willy nilly, and I think that after Government for meeting defalcations, is to set aside a good deal of the Fund and wherever the benefit should possible go to Public Officers, their dependents or successors, at the credit of the W:idows Fund, since there are much in need of such funds.
I therefore move an amendm;ent to the effect that the words following seventh the words "Widows and Orphs.ns' Fund" be substituted line of clause 4 be deleted the word "into" in the people who are very should be placed and Orphans' or the balance therefor.

and that The COLONIAL TREASURER : .

We are wasting time; that has with the point before us.

nothing to d.o Mr. JACOB : I am on my feet, Your Excellency.

The CHAIRMAN : You must sit down when another Member is speaking.
will go against but that will only be so this Fund goes there also.

What The COLONIAL TREASURER The hon.

Member is quite wrong in his assump­ tion.

He began by saying that in future charges for defalcations general revenue.

provided the hon.
provided the hon.

Member is saying is that having revenue accepted would meet all claimG for default, we shoulcl take the Fund and use up the money for but if tht the benefit of Public Officers, idea is that the taxpayer is to bear the whole cost of any defalcation balance should g·o to the taxpayer That is the only basis on which it can be done.

the idea that g·eneral then this also.

a particular The COLONIAL TREASURER :.


We fund and a par­ are discussing ticular has risen to speak on the financial of the Colony-something is inelcvant.

machinery, and the hon.

Member position which, I thinl�.

The CHAIRMAN: I think it it irrel­ evant.

but perhaps the hon.

Member may make his point briefly.

Mr. JACOB : I am not going to take more than a minute.

I am making a point -I am not going to suffer from any con­ am saying that the fusion of thought.

I Colony has no Reserve Fund.

The hon.


the Colonial to confuse question the issue when he says that my is out of ordet·.

is merely trying Trea.surer 17-Vi I'.O.

r:11arr111lrr.

LEarsLATITE CouNcrL P1111tl (Uezmtl) Bill 1Hfi The CHAIRMAN: No; he is not con­ Member, Mr. Rot!1, with regard with proper fusing the issue.
The position is Urn t a has been moved by the second amendment Nominated to clause 4, and in accordance practice ment, which is that the words following the word "into" in the seventh line be deleted and and Orphans' for that the words "the Widows there­ Fund" be substituted I will now put that second amend­ Amendment moved by Mr. Roth put, and lost.

amendment but provides The CHAIRMAN : We will now pass which to the second printed is before hon.

Members.
Members.

It not only alters for the clause 4 as printed, insertion C2l and 4 (3).

Those in favour of the amend­ in the report of the ment as contained which is before the Select Committee Council say "110."

will say "aye" and those against of two new sub-clauses-4 Amendment put, and agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended,.

passed.

Clause 5-Claims by mitraceable officers.


The COLONIAL TREASURER : I beg to move an amendment for the deletion from clause revenue of the Colony," tution therefor and the substi­ of the words "the Fund."

5 (2) of the words "the general Mr. JACOB : Apart from this Fund, I think the Postal Agents have some has asked me to find out has been esta­ I think, there are other funds.

For in­ stance.

fund.

Somebody -now that the principle blished of the Fund - what will be the position Postal Agents.
I don't !mow if I can get the answer now.

that there should be no Guarantee and their posi­ I under­ General found or Public Officers, this Fund.

The COLONIAL TREASURER : So far as I know, Postal Agents are not Civil Servants tion is one outside stand that the Postmaster it very difficult guaranteed sum whereby they had to put a certain of money in the Post Office Savingi; Bank.

That was, however, private, have already to get these Postal Agents at all, and hr.
devised a scheme As I stated, I do not believe departmental a sort of informal, arran1iement.

F,'ostal Agents are Public Officers and, therefo!·e they do not come within this Fund.

put.

and agreed to.

Amendment Clause 5, ai; amended, passed.

New clause 6-'- in the report.

This clause, deals with the The COLONIAL TREASURER: I beg of a new clause-{i­ to move the insertion as indicated of course, there is default Fund.

The loss.
The loss.

on being certified Auditor, the liability is to say, Government ag·ainst bility procedure in case the by any C'fficer affecting by the will be paid from the Fund, but of the officer continues.

That him or his property for a refund.

can make an order lia­ as regards IVIr.

EDUN : I do not think this Coun­ of this cil ought to agree to the inclusion new clause, I as well as those to follow.

of ad­ see in them a twist in the process ministration.
is guar­ Here, Government anteeing that if any officer is in default up that default.

to officers ciple is bad in the extreme.

I do not see why this clause should Bill at all.

That ls giving a licence and the whole prin­ funds would be there to cover beforehand be included to default, in the The COLONIAL TREASURER quite sure the hon.

Member ha.s not re:.d this clause.


If he reads the new clause (1 > which it is proposed Bill, he would see that it says :- to insert in the : I am 8 " ( 1) The liability of an officer in be for the amount certified to default due by him shall continue enforced against any of his property Trea­ payment made by t.11e Colonial surer from the Fund in respect of the amount due by such officer."
him or all or any part notwithstanding and may be That is to say, if there is a default, the and pa_Yment is made amount is certified Treasurer, by the Colonial ernment would order process officer from him as far as possible.

and the Gov­ the against and the amount would be collected Mr. EDUN: That is the very thing against.
I am protesting I know what Is human nature and I know what is the feeling ordinate will not be asked to pay anything a sub­ officer towards is that he The probability and that of a superior officer.

1747 P.O.

Guarantee 7 MARCH, 1947.

P11ml (Repeal) Bill 1748 the clause but, I feel somehow.

ing licence for dishonesty in this case.

we are g"iv­ New clause 6 put, and agreed to.

Committee.

Clause 7-Public Officers' r Default) Council Food Production it will be paid out of this Fund.
I know of a case where an officer was in default of a certain sum of money but he was not asked to pay and it was paid by the Legis­ lative I think that is wrong and that it will give a licence Why should we consider If an officer does a wrong thing, let him pay for his mistake.

That is the only way to discipline thing will be a farce.

him.

otherwise this measure now ?

the whole to other officers t-0 do likewlse.

Fund.

The COLONIAL TREASURER : I am and yet what the hon.

about.
about.

There are In such a Council decides at a loss to understand Member is saying.

This Bill is designed to take care of dishonesty.

The hon.

Mem­ ber refers to an instance and, I think, I know what he is talking cases where a Public Ofi1cer might lose money in the course of hls duties.

there mig·ht not be a default.

case, the Executive whether the officer is really gence and whether the loss is something which Public Revenue :should ordinary course.
-Banks particularly-losses every day, but those ai:·e something business like commercial houses.

decide whether they should write off the amou,1ts volved.

&.nd in such cases Government.

that occurs in the course of not defaults.


occur nearly bear in the of negli­ guilty It is in­ In the case of businesses and in each deals with cases where an in accounting through case the pro­ This Bill officer is in default some dishonesty, cedure is that the Auditor would certify the loss and the amount would be cl.aimed against this Fund, but the Bill goes on to say that the liability of the officer con­ tinues, and Government a.nd recover the m.oney from him in a case of default.

In such cases.
In such cases.

the first thing that happens is that the officer is "fired",.

and notwithstanding be liable for making good the default.

that he would still has a right to try The COLONIAL TREASURER : I ion of the new clause in the report of the Select now move the inse1·t 7 as contained Committee.

There is a mistake ginal note which should really "Public to pay amount so certified."

Officers' (Default) Fund.

Account in the mar­ read New clause 7 put.

and agreed to.

New clause 8.


The COLONIAL TREASURER : I move that the new clause 8 be inserted with the marginal report of the Select Committee.

note as contained in the New clause 8 put, and agreed to.

Clauses 6 and 7 as printed renumbered 9 and 10, respectively.

Title cmd enacting The COLONIAL TREASURER : As clailse.

regards the title in this Bill, I hope the learned Attorney-General would agree \vith me.
As printed in the Bill the title is rather narrow and the Committee has suggested that the new title should read:- Fund Or­ to repeal the " An Ordinance Public Officers' Guarantee dinance.

Chapter 202, to provide the appropriate disposal held thereunder; connected said."

I therefore move that the title be with the matters afore­ fo:· of moneys and for purposes amended accordingly.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

Council resumed.


The COLONIAL TREASURER : I hope the third reading of this Bill will be taken today.

This Bill has been on the Order Paper for a long time.

The CI-IAIRMAN : The hon.

Member tMr.

Edun) feels that if this Fund is there dishonesty among officers would spread, but the first thing that would happen is that the officer would be cha:.ged.

Mr. EDUN: If the hon.


the Colonial Treasurer feels otherwise then let us keep The PRESIDENT: With the consent of the Council ing today.

we can take the third read­ The COLONIAL TREASURER : I beg· to move that this Bill be now read the thh'd time and passed.

1749 Lancllonl-Te11a11l Bill LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Rent Restriction Bill li50 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL seconded.

e:i.ny into effect the point as regards ceiling for business premises.

a Question put.

and agreect to.

Bill read a third time and passed.


LAXDLORD AXD TEXAXT B11.r.. 1047 The CHAIRMAN: That is to say, all premises Bill will now include in­ t,·1e cluding l: usiness premises.

The PRESIDENT : The hon.

the will now proceed with of the Rent Restriction Attorney-General the consideration Bill.

is so, sir.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, passed.

'The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: That 'Ihe ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Before we do that, I would lilrn to move item 4 on the Order Paper.
Clause 5-Jnsertion 4A to 4G-in th'?.

Principal of new sections Ordinance.

The PRESIDENT : Very well.

The ATTORNEY -GENERAL : Here The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I beg to move the first reading of a Bill inti­ tuled- I should point out that clause 4D as will be renumbered printed (1) and a new sub-clause-(2)-will insertecl as sub-clause be to read as follows:- "An Ordinance the rt1ationship between landlord and ·tenant and to amend the existing law thereto."

with respect to reg·uJate Mr. CRITCHLOW seconded.


Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a first time.


TIEXT RE�TRTCTIO" ( A:i1r1:::s: n�1 E="T) Bru,, Hl-!7 (2, Payment of the maximum an appeal tut where, en such appeal, it is stated in the more than the rent slated in such certificate may be notwithstanding enforced E uf this Ordin­ uncter :,ection four a.nr e. that the rent decided is less or certificate rent which ought to have been so stated, shall be liable the landlord may be, and such recovered or the tenant as the case accordingly.
m:1y be difference to to pay the difference the tenant or the landlord Council resolved itseif cJu.use by clause a Bill in­ into Commit­ tee to consider titulec.- to amend tllc 1941, by Ordinance, the application and th2 by mak­ of the Ordinance, "An Ordinance Rent Restriction enlarging duration for the fixing of maxi­ ing provision mum rents, and for purposes con­ aforesaid."

nected with the matters The point really is.


that during· the between the hearing time or the interval of a claim before the Rent Assessor and this the alJPea-1 provision lect rents due during that interval.

is regarded provision should some time may relapse, is to enable the landlord to col­ It as fair and equitable be inserted.

that this and Amendment put, and agreed to.

Cor:--; crL L'< CoinnTTEE.

The CHAIRMAN: Are hon.


Members Clause 3-Re1Jeal of section .3 r:>f the Principc!l and re-enactmeat Ordinance.

to take the whole of clause 5, prepared with one which is a fairly long clause amendment?

Follow­ the debate on the second The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: ing on the report of the Select Committee and in accordance with the views e:x­ pres:c:ecl during reading lete from clause 3 Cl) (bl the words "the stcmclard mort?c than seven hundred and twenty per annum."
following r?ollars "unfurnished."

of this Bill, it is proposed This amendment is to is cd the rate of not rent whereof t.he word to de·­ Clause 5, as amended, passed.

Clause 6 -Amendment Orilinance.

the Principal of section 5 oJ deletion Mr. PI:ER BACCHUS: I am going to of the wrods mnve U·,e hundred a.nd fortv-six" and ask thf!.t the words "nineteen and forty-seven" be substituted from clause 6 (cl h1mdretl therefor.

"nineteen 1731 Rent Re�tl'iction I lVIARCH, 1947.

(Amclt.)

Bill 1752 on rent.


Il to that Government Ordinance, to the capital such a condition in any such property 1946.

I being· to assess outlay.

period.

I am not supporting that have not been controlled can Government now with this and that condition as from January, to 1946.

I am not directly interested When Gov­ to that position, made retro­ or in­ that interim that these people should be allowed the rental according Some basis must be talrnn, however, and that must be retrospective.
ernment has contributed it is not fair that it should be spective directly cleal, but I feel that it is not equity after Government has permitted to run for so ,,iany years.

It is intended in this Bill to place a ceiling it were not for the fact brought strongly that condition further.

I ask in equity that this sub­ clause should not be retrospective ?
I think the landlords will be year 1946. up if this Bill is made retro­ say that taken by tenants, Gov­ state of af­ is about to do done at the incep­ thought of con­ rents in the City.

Not having con­ the entire rental valuation in the rent in It appears to me that this clause is both unjust and unfair, since it means that properties to now would be controlled passed, spective if there were advantages some landlords over certain ernment contributed fairs.
What Government now should have been tion-when trolling trolled City and having placed a ceiling the existing justly go to the landlords provision entitled ernment's intention over and above the ceiling· permits, lation.

rent and so carries property.


He pays an excessive amount for the property at an enhanced cause he can increase quires the property because there creases may be rented by the original $50 per month, house being $5,000; for $10,000 that the rental is not controlled ing full well there is a demand for houses- If that speculator, was not sure in his mind that he would be able to skyrocket that rent according to what he paid not have had the condition day.
ber, the last speaker, when he said that it is the businessman who invests and in the property assumes a risk.

When a man assumes a risk he must stand by his risk.

is no control, and so he in­ his rent.

As an instance, owner at Mr. FARNU1\1:: I think the hon.

Mem­ has answered with rents figure.


bit of specu­ that it had been to Government's I admit, of a little The property-o wner carries up the up the value of the we would as existing Mr. FARNUM : Whftt I feel is this: The CHAIRMAN : I agree with you and the second owner knowing would have still continued at an enhanced value to say that it has never been Gov­ he sells that property for the property, if I may so call him, value be­ ac­ the rent.

He to interfere outlay on that his capital entirely !
himself notice, and know­ a house from the deal he to­ It The CHAIRMAN : Ma.y I interrupt ?

Do you aslc us to sympathize with him ?

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS : Yes, sir, be­ The CHAffiMAN: The hon.

Member, Can you give that Mr.

Peer Bacchus !

amendment?

cause Government contributed tion.

It is in the normal line of Knowing the demand for houses he takes the risk of purchasing at an excessive price and increases to that posi­ the rent.

business.

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS : I will not ac­ put the amendment.


tually of making the point so as to place it on record.

I only thought Clause 6 passed.

The CHAIRMAN : Can I interrupt again ?

You say, he takes the risk !

Clause 7 -Amendment Ordinance.

the Principal of sect-ion 6 of Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: In the normal he increases line of business, $75 per month.

His return from his vestment, far lower than the return of the first in­ vestor to whom that property $5,000.
I say Government that rent to in­ though he increases had cost should protect his rent, is There The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: is no amendment to this clause, but the hon.

Member who is not in his place, Mr. Gonsa.lves, who is a member of the Com­ mittee, clauses Question raised a point with regard to sub­ (e) and (fJ.

That is to say, the of the Standard Rent.


The sug- circum­ of of the case ?.n increase having regard to all the stances ten per centmn of the standard rent is excessive, either disallow or assess such increase in place of such increase such less amount than ten he may consider proper.''

per centwn as and reasonable altogether 1753 Rent Restriction LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ( Amdt.)

Bi'.ll frii section Ordinance, as an increase change so far as under the 6 (1) (cl, pro­ gestion was made by the hon.
Member that there should be a minimum amount of the re11t to be permitted of between 10 and 15 per cent.

I think.

I should put it to the Council.

I should point out that we are not endeavouring to make any substantial the law is concerned, because original rent vision is made by which the increased 10 of a house or land should not exceed· per cent.

of the standard rent In other words, 10 per cent.

is not a fixed amount if as the permitted increase.
then the amount is called into question, there is the discretion as of the Assessor to what amount he should give.

When the Ordinance fence Regulations, Members will recall, permitted dealt with.

Regulation 3 of the Defence Rent Control) 1Georgetown 1944, reads : Regulations, No.

16 of 1944, as hon.
this question of the with regard to rent was was amended by way of the De­ <Amendment) Therefore, increase of the Ordinance Regulations to "In the application and of the Principal premises plies by virtue following provisions < a 1 in assessing to which the Ordinance of these Regulations, shall have effect- the maximum ap­ the 6 ( 1 l r c 1 amount may assess as in­ premises, rent of any business the Assessor crease under section of the Ordinance an in excess of 10 1Jer centmn but not exceeding tuni of the standard such amount be in his opinion having regard to reasonable of the all the circpmstances case, and it shall be lawful for the tenant to pay and for the landlord the amount of such increase;" 25 per cen­ rent, if thereafter to receive I pause to point out that is what this Bill seeks to do in regard to all premises.
If you loolc at the proviso pararaph (f) it says: on page 11 - "by the addition subsection - follows < 1) of a further to paragraph (cl of as proviso further that where the or were in course of erection have been or are erected "Provided premises after, on the eighth day of March, nine­ teen hundred and forty-one, where the premises were first let on or after the said date, the Rent and may, if in his opinion Assessor or Clearly the basis of all that is what is if the because the premises during that time, then the standard and, therefore, upon the of the hon.
Member f.P,r West­ on as high a figure 'as he can cost and equitable fair and l:rndlord erects a building from and after the date specified, he fixes his rent, hav­ of the circumstances ing regard to his case following observation ern Berbice, get having regard to the capital the demand for houses, rent would be fixed by what the first ten­ ant paid because the standard rent would be that.
If a tenant goes in and occupies for a month or two and paid $70 as the rent, that is the cri­ terion for assessing Therefore one eye on of your building point the hon.

Member was endeavouring to make - the demand for houses - and fix your charge, and faced with a fixed standard to the circumstances regard to that, the permitted would be the amount as stated in the Or­ dinance, 10 per cent.

viso enables the Rent Assessor all the circumstances whether the landlord 5 per cent., equitable.
what you paid for the erection and the other eye on the of the case and see to 10 or is entitled as fair and Having­ increase all that has to be done which he regarcil'i or more, but this pro­ of the case.

the Assessor to go into the standard rent.

is to have will be rent according I suggest any land·· ,tion to create victimiza I have made this observation to the hon.

Member that this is on the basis of what is fair and equit­ able.
No one wants to prevent lord from getting his money, but at the same time neither must he be allowed on the tenant.

in the light of the fact that the hon.

Mem­ ber, Mr.

The hon.

that point in the Committee.

<Mr.

District.

Member for North W,estern Jacob) and the hon.

Nominated Member on my left <Mr.

Critchlow) can bear me out, that that was the point raised.

who is not here, raised Gonsalves, Clause 7 put, and agreed to.

a reasonable return for 1755 1-(.ent Hestnctwn 7 l\1ARCH Hl47.

1 ( .
1 ( .

:1111lit.)

Bill l'lbo Clause 8-Insertion of new sections in sub­ Ordinance 7 a.nd 7 A of the Principal stitution for section 7.

The CHAIRMAN': There are some and I propose amendments, very important to take each point in clause S and not try to do the amendments first of all turn to page 12.

I put the question part of the Bill".

"That 7 (1) (a) and (b) stand Let us together.

to be met - Question put, and agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN: We now turn to 7 (1) ccr.


It was The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: or becomes a nuisance that this provision in cases where the desirable considered should be extended tenant is annoying to the landlord, will be the insertion the landlord" tenants", criculated as printed to hon.

Members.
and consequently there of the words "or to after the words "or to other in the amendments whethel' shall, in respect given or proceedings fore or after the commencement this Ordinance, " less- ............ be made or given un- commenced of a notice be­ of Then follow conditions, and this is one "Ce) the premises how;e or a public ing, are reasonably landlord for - being a dwelling­ or commercial build­ by the required (i)occupation as a residence for or for any rn:ember oI himself his family, or for any person or to reside bona fi,d(;, residing with him, or for some person in his actual whole time em­ ployment, or di)use by him for business trade or or professional purposes; of the purposes in sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii) above;" iii) a combination In other words, before the order for possession ditions the-m. is (e) - can be given, any of those con­ and one of must appear in evidence The CHAIRMAN : I put the question "That 7 (1) fcl.
as amended and explained by the hon.

the Attorney part of the Bill".

General, stand "The premises house are reasonably landlord for himself."

for occupation required by tne as a residence being a dwelling­ Question put, and agreed to.

Mr. SEAFORD : I am not quite clear as to the woTding.

: If the to the he would see that there to substitute The ATTORNEY-GENERAL hon.
Member turn to the appendix Report of the Committee, it is suggested "or to other tenants for the or to the landlord" in paragraph words "or to other tenants" (c)of subsection in the (1).

Therefore Bill on page 12 you insert in the fifth line of paragraph (c) after the words "or other tenants" lord."

the words "or to the land­ The .

CIL'\IRMAN : Mr. Attorney­ this amendment will you explain General, to 7 (1) (e) (i) ?

If hon.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

it says : Members refer to 7 ( 1) .


"No order or judgment for the re­ covery of possession to which this Ordinance the ejectment or for applies, of a tenant therefrom of any premises and clearly that it fair The Committee felt any person bona or to reside with him" are Tequires the landlord with who is residing Obviously and equitable.

that the words "or for fide residing too wide.

If the premises him, that is not a ground for Consequently be deleted.
that those words for somebody they suggest The CHAIRMAN : AU you are .

doing is deleting bona fide residing That is not clear iu the amendment.

the words "or for any 1)erson or to rcsirle wtih him".

possession.

The deletion was agreed to and para­ graph (el passed as amended.

(1 !

to Section Accommodation.


Proviso ternative 7 11} - Al­ The The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: is where point dealt with in that proviso possession is required oI those conditions laid down t-ion, 'J.s.eq ternative provided or sought under any in the sec­ or a pre­ the premises, al­ will have to be accommodation by the landlord.

That is thr as a condition precedent uisite to obtaining 1757 Re JI l Resfl'ictiu 11 Bill 1758 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL (A.melt.)

that the question effect of this proviso.


The Committee and de­ felt that it would be advisable of alternative ac­ sirable by the land­ comJtnodation Consequently the lord should be deleted.

amendment to be provided is proposed.

The CHAIRMAN : Do YOU say the has not to provide alternative ac­ landlord commodation ?

obtaining· that.

The CHAIRMAN : I understand provided a house and not Am I right in saying You tell me there is a penalty for a landlord using it for himself.
that in the United Kingdom where they had to do with this question I do not think the landlord session unless he provides acco!rl"'.

:nodation of housing, is allowed pos­ ?

alternative the premises for himself.

: If he The ATTORNEY-GENERAL In case desires it for members of his family or he desires in his whole time employment persons will have, as a condition precedent prerequisite, modation.
he or a accom­ in Trinidad concession the difficulty lord equally alternative to provide think a we a.re prepared he has to do so, but this is to give because to the land­ applies of housing as to the tenant.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I The CHAIRMAN : I do not know The CHAIRMAN : If H landlord what Members think about it.

wants a house for himself to find alternative accommodation.

he does not have The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Only for himself.

The CHAIRMAN : Who is to say if it - is fo1· himself ?
The ATTORNEY-·GENERAL: If you it says: to which this Ordinance has obtained for possession an of refer to 7A on page 15, a landlord "ViThenever order or .iudg·ment any premjses applies p:c1.ragra.phs of section judgment untarily sequence the landlord fence against on any ground specified in (eJ or (f) of subsection seven and· the order or or the tenant vol­ is executed gives up his tenancy in, con­ of that order or judgment, (1) shall be guilty of an of­ this Ordinance - I may The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: is taken from the explain Trinidad that the proviso Ordinance.
The CHAIRMAN : As the Bill is alter­ a question the landlord has to provide whether he requires printed, native accommodation the house for himself or not.

That is clearly Do Members agree with the Select Com­ mittee's lord the opportunity for himself accommodation the land­ which gives to obtain the house and not provide alternative for this Government.

am,endment ?

which constituted or lets, the premises \a.i iI without first obtaining the of the Rent As­ permission he at any time uses or sesscr.
permits to be used, or oc­ cupies or permits to be oc­ cupied, for any purpose other than the purpose the ground on which the or­ der was made or the judg­ ment was given: or (b!

if, having obtained a� aforesaid.


ply with any terms or condi­ tions (which m'ay include condition tenant is to be given the op .. a ten­ tion of again becoming ant of the premises) which the Rent Assessor attached to that permis­ sion,-" he fails to com­ may have a that the f01·mer permission Mr. RAATGEVER : I think it is in equitable that a land­ be able to gain possession of ,\ order, and it is only lord should house if he wants it for his own purpose.
I do not see why he should provide It is his prnperty native accommodation.

and he has entire right to it.

I entirely agree with the amendment.

alter­ Mr. SEAFORD: I agree too.

If I think, it would be ex­ unfair if I could not obtain pos­ to make use of my house.

But if I have a property, I tremely session happen to be away from the Colony and want to return, out unless I find alternative tion for him.
I look upon that as ex­ tl'emely with me and I have houses, should have the right to give· them the use of any other house I possess.

u nfair.

If I have relatives I think, I I cannot turn a tenant accommoda­ living I go 175!)

!tent Restricf'lon7 lVlARCH.

1!)4'/.

(A/1!((1.

)Dllb .llUV and say than the recommendation of the should further Com!mittee that the landlord have the right to take the house for the use of his children who are living and their children with him.

accommodation.
accommodation.

he provided alternative There may be cases whe1·e one cannot afford to buy another house so that if he wants the one he has for the accommodation his children he could not get it.

of it would be a hard case if The CHAIRMAN: You have knocked accom­ with this on the repre­ but suitable accommodation my own mind-that has no option at all; should be able to get his prop­ I should Jlke to say that the Com­ Mr. JACOB : As a member of the Mr. CRITCHLOW : Not only alter­ na.tive modation.
made on behalf of the landlord possession of his own house.

point.

It is an rule that the landlord should pro­ at the root of the whole arbitrary Select Committee which dealt vide alternative accommodation.

It has matter, been found necessary because of the hard­ mittee acted very generously ship of the tenants who are turned out sentations by the landlords.

I think I am right in as regards saying that in th� United Kingdom the I agree entirely-in landlord I am not a landlord sure.
erty if he wants it for his family, have not had any advocate able to convince should be so.

Then again, it is not quite right to compare British Guiana with Trinidad housing papers that are being Colony we have nothing going on.

Some people buy houses only for themselves and, I think, we should go even a little further than we are going in this Bill.

If certain landlords certain under clause 13 and, perhaps, advisable onment for those persons ing the proper thing.
I think certain practices Mr. SEAFORD : I do not know what the 10,w is in the United Kingdom, but there had been cases where the tenants were turned out.

Do they then have certain not know.

conditions.

in Trinidad put up monthly, Mr. THOMPSON : I quite agree that and other places as Tegal'dS who has been that that to increase the term of impris­ have been going on too long.
wants a house for himself abuse their position, which can be imposed hundreds of houses I see from the news­ the Committee for doing so ?

I do penalties who are not do­ but in this if a great several reasons there are it will be but we That I consider is being created in so far as he I know several cases of per­ where a landlord he should have it, especially hardship is concerned.

sons who have houses and want to go into them and cannot do so in order to accom­ modate their children.

great hardship.
great hardship.

his house I do not feel he should provide alternative given the right to have his disagree, other causes.

There is a case I have be­ fore me now in which two notices served and both were contrary.

porting house for I am sup­ that where the landlord wants the accommodation.

He should be Where a landlord where he wants it for a wants he should get it.

however, himself house.

I do were Mr.


PEER BACCHUS: I am also should of his own house supporting the idea that a landlord be able to get possession when he wants it.

I go further that if a landlord be able provide alternative last speaker requested dren and yet he could not get it unless to get it without being asked to The accommodation.

cited a case where a landlord wants his house he should of a house for his chil­ possession and say Mr. EDUN : I was not here when in principle but.
it, this is an extraordinary I think, no one should houses from others who occupy and, I think, it is desirable this Bill was accepted as I understand measure to meet extraordinary circum­ stances that people should not have a free licence to take away them.

This Bill will only last until 1951 and for that reason, be put out of his house in the meanwhile if no alternative vided for him.

That does ever.

that if a man wants his house for his children it.

That would be an extraordinary cumstance.


not get his house to give it to anybody he likes, mittee should permit a different be done here.

he should not be able to get cir­ In England a landlord can­ is pro­ not mean, how­ and I do not see why the Com­ accommodation thing to 1761 Rent Resfriction .

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ( Arndt.)

B-ill 1762 The COLONIAL TREASURER: As I the hon.

Member for North understand Western Distric,t the par.-7.
clause 8 CU-should read :-"occupation as a residence for hims.elf ber of his fmnily residing 01· for any mem­ with him."

(1) Ce) (i) of The CHAIRMAN : I was trying to realizes that a landlord of his own property with­ accommodation.

be­ make sure that this Council the amendment will entitle to take possession out finding alternative Apparently I have put it very clearly cause all the speakers have stated that they are In favour.

I do not know whether the hon.

the Colonial Tre� .

;urer is .


now in favour, but I am in favour further than that.

of going Mr. SEAFORD: \Ve are in favour of going further.

pro­ got mrurried of provisio11 that a man may have a who has recently if we have to I pointed out the report may state restricted the council.

Although that the Committee vision to the landlord only, I will certainly agree today to the insertion fo.r his family also, even define the word "family."
in the Committee daughte�· but cannot find a house to live in and unless he can get one of his houses for her it will be very difficult for her to get a start in life; therefore I thought the children fair consideration.

ber of the Committee said that the land­ lord might have an old father or an old mother and in that case he might argue that his parents are also entitled to con­ sideration.
would be a hard case, but the feeling vision should not be extended I fP.el, however, Council house cannot get possession of it for the accommodation of his father or mother, as the case may be.

to them.

that no Member of this would like to know that he has a I agree that that should be g-iveh of a landlord Then, another mertl­ is that the pro­ The CHAIRMAN : It is a matter of opinion.
Mr. FARNUM: I think a landlord of his possession should be allowed to have possession property without being made to find alter­ native accommodation.

The question getting for the accommodation of his children Committee, and the question who should be the landlord's relatives.

a rock, however, at that.

d by the raised was immediate against left it We found ourselves up and consequently was also discusse of and grand-children, Mr. GONSALVES : The hon.
Member feeling in Committee for the landlord but it was thought that the was that the and his that that would provide for the land­ or who has just spoken would recall original Bill should provide family, be too elastic-to lord's children else.

There was a feeling 111 Committee that we should limit it to these people.

The hon.
The hon.

the Attorney-General port states that it is limited lord only, but I think it is because was that difficulty constituted provision was certainly the landlord report of the Committee to the landlord Attorney-General with certain in Committee as to what his fumliy.

I agree that the should not be too elastic, for only and the hon.

th3 has left that point along in this in favour of providing and his family.
The majority in his re­ to the land­ others for decision confines the idea there but I I think the provision can well be ex­ that it was also discussed before, and his family, I have suggested that to the Committee has gone with clause of the Bill, tended to cover a. landlord and if we do not want to make two steps forward we can at least malce one up and one down.

I am not saying anything which I have not advocated because I suggested and, I think, it will be necessary to insert the provision today.
I do not know how far the discussion regard to this particnlar but I recollect in the Committee ing alternative equally to ing houses and those who own business I think a landlord premises.

the right of possession the pw·pose The hon.

some reason, but he would agree that it was raised in Committee.

I am sorry I could not get here before now, because I was engaged in a matter in the Supreme Court.

should have to a building for of carrying on his own business.
the Attorney-01'lneral has, for not refened to that point n should apply who own dwell­ those landlords accommodatio that the question of find­ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: What true with which took place the last speaker regard to the discussion in the Committee.

I think that at.

t.hP 1,.,:t said is perfectly 1763 Rent Restrict io11 7 l\fAROH, 1947, .

(Amclt.)

Bill 176.J: this question of liability morning when the accommodation use.

As the hon.

Member you might begin by extending meeting-last Monday hon.
Member was not present-,'-we decided to provide to limit alternative to dwelling houses only when rcquirf'cl by a landlord for his personal has stated.

the provision the landlord and grand-parents, to say what point you should stop at.

I of "mem­ should say also that this question bers of his family" will open the door to the provision I will being used improperly; ·put it that way.
There are some people and then go on to his parents so that it is difficult the Cflildren to include of who will observe the provision but there are others who will not.

properly, in the fortunate of a tenant seeking as a result of this pro­ will be able to rent to any person The point was made that a landlord position who finds himself of having houses of which he can obtain easy possession vision, who is willing to pay him more.

and the public will be at the mercy of every land­ lord.
A decent ci�izen should not ,be put in the position and finding none.

As the hon.

Nominated Mem])er, Mr. Edun.

has said, these are emergency conditions.

and that is why we have the words "fair and equitable" i11 all these th!ngs.

In other words, are landlords to put consider­ to be permitted able amounts of profit into their pockets and make capital conditions measures to meet emergency That should be fully realised of the present difficult, refuge ?
says: - as the guiding principle· 1·equires alternative With regard to the point made by the South (Mr. that we have ::mother to follow after this one.

The first houses, and a house for accommodation is a pre­ it is not hon.

Member for Georgetown I suggest Gonsalves) proviso proviso ceals with dwelling where the landlord him.self requisite.

a question a ccndition it is a question tion by the Rent Assessor rnnclusion is a question to be decided with the side on which the greater hard- .

ship accrues.
ship accrues.

·is to provide aJt.ern,ltivc to be taken into consiuc:·a­ in coming to a of equity.

in acc::irdance It is not whether a landlord to possession.

on the question as lJut precedent acommoclation, It who has.

a business premises but whether alternative available.

accommodation Is Then, there is the point as regards he might whether took place in of it to carry riremises.

should be put in the as the lancll9rd to get possession else to carry on his busi­ have to suffer.
The matter is of a dwell­ the tenant A discussion around the question business the C.-:mmitLee a la!1dlord.

and wants on his own business.

same position ing house and made to provide with somewhere ness owing to the inconvenience otherwise a very c!iincult indulgence they decide on the first point, a landlord his personal suggests that the privilege and that a landlord or sent to prison if he uses this provision for an improper second proviso I will ask again that it be postponed.
I think, it follows this Council to agree that should have his premises for use only.

One hon.

Member of Members of this Council, I have a new one in draft and, one.

and I shall ask the the motive.

As regards has decided.

will be abused should be heavily fined if on the principle which The CHAIRMAN ; Will you read in your own words the text of the proviso ?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It \.
to the means cf the tenant on any of a dwelling-house in paragraph (e) of unless the CJurt is also accom.mocla­ which ii, reasonably "Provided that alternative that an order or judg­ ment shall n.ct be made or given in respect ground specified this subsection satisfied ti.on is available suitable and to the needs of the tenant and his family as regards anrl proximity which consists house to which this Ordinance or of premises c.we!iing to the tenant security sonably equivalent affcrdert by this Or�inance of a clwelling-ho11�e " Order applies; on terms which will affOl'd of tenure rea­ ........ extent, to olace cf work and either 0f a dwelling­ character applies, to be Jet.
as a separate to the security in the case to which this I think the hon.

Members on the had the benefit of com­ and of paraphrasing Select Committee p::i,·ison We have not put in the word "landlord" and.

therefore, wiil not apply to landlords alternative in so far as ls concen>.ed, it means that the proviso acccinmoclation this provioo.

In the second proviso of alternative accommodation 1765 Rent Resh'idio11 lJEGlST,ATIVE C'OUKCTL (.1mdt.)
Rill 1166 but it will apply to members of his family or persons in his whole-time employment.

I have already indicated tion is made too difficult and define "family" yond territorial waters parents and as including children.

that if the ques­ we might go be­ a landlord's The CHAIRMAN: I thought we had taken out the words "on any fi,ed in paragraph (e) of this wbsection."

ground sveci­ Mr. GONSALVES: The hon.

the in reverse is working Attorney-General sir.


gear, The CHAIRMAN : It seems to me alternative will be exempted accommodation, thor­ that the membel'S of the Committee oughly understand it.

The main principle is that only the landlord from providing and I certainly ment :.,hould be accepted by the Select Committee.

less you make it very clear it will be very difficult sincerely accept the report of the Select Committee.
as put forward I agree that un­ ask Members of this Council for the layman to follow it.

I that the amend­ suggest to Mr.

PEER BACCHUS : I think there explanati-on should be some further hon.

the Attorney-General.

does not accept the proviso this Council printed, landlord?

Supposing� as what will be the position by the of the The CHAIRMAN : Surely, "children" is a very wide term.

but perhapB law only Mr. GONSALVES: The children.


extended and, I think:, would like to include the I was inclined to legitimate recognizes ideas are wider than Your Excellency's mine.

Perhaps it would meet the hon.

Member who has jui;t taken his seat, if we do as I have suggested there are other Members who to see the proviso family of a landlord.

indulge cellency The hon.

the Attor­ ing the first proviso.


these has a way of draftil1g ney-General I agree things which create draughtsman that he is a very ingenious -a very clever draug·htsm.an-and does not nnderstand away with it.

in some laug·hter expressed if one a thfng he would get some difficulty.

in understand­ difficulty when Your Ex­ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The not be able to get his premises landlord will accommoda­ providing without that he tion.

At present should get it but only fm himself.


alternative it is sugg·ested Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: I think of the Members of this Coun� to be extended the majority cil want the provision incluc1e landlord majority eration.

members of the family of the and, I think, the wish of the should be given some consid­ to The CHAIRMAN : I think we .�houlrt in this Council, get it quite clearly accepts this Council or whether it wants thi.s prn­ Committee vision widened.
the re))ort whether of the Select Mr. SEAFORD: I think it should be widened and, I think, the word "family" should be defined, as stated by the hon.

Member for Georgetown to include salves), I do not think it should be extenclect than that; I do not think we should wicler say "any member of his family" as that would be too wide.

South (Mr. Gon­ children any of a landlord.

Mr. CRITCHLOW : Certain hon.


the landlords but what about the of other peop1e-.are they not as should not acmrunodation, but of Members are only considering and their families, families .

!

;ood ?

I think the landlords only find alternative they should pay for the transportation belongings and so on, as is done tenants' in other countries.

landlords not got any •here.

There are Christian but you have in other countries.
The CHAIRMAN: I thinlc the best with of the Select Committee of Members vote in of it, then it would be accepted.

If .

are thrown the recommendations and come back draft.

The hon.

Member for thing· to do is to put this proviso the amendm,,ent and, if the majority f,tvour however, out we can get them revised with another Georgetown Member for Georgetown slaves) Berbice <Mr.

Pee1· Bacchus) see the proviso that everybody the hon North (Mr. Seaford).

South (Mr. Gon­ to but I am not sme widened.

wants �t.
wants �t.

I shall therefore and the hop.

Member for Vvestern would like Mr. GONSALVES: It is difficult to meai1s.

what the word "family" determine =- 1767 Rent Resfrirtion 7 MAR('IT, l!l-1-7.

(.lmdl.

)Bill 116 put the question "That amended by the Select Committee part of the Bill."

stand Bacchus and Seaford, Treasurer-4.

and the Colonial the proviso as Against Peer : Messrs. Raatgever, Mr. GONSALVES : It is a little com­ Did not vote : Messrs. Jacob $lld plicated, sir.

Gonsalves-2.
Gonsalves-2.

The CHAffiMAN : I am trying to make it easy.

Amendment carried.

Proviso (2J to Section 7 (1).

Mr. GONSALVES: In order to be able to take the vote correctly particular subsection an amendment.

on that I was going to move The CHAIR.MAN: If it is thrown out, then you would have an opportunity moving an amendment, the vote first and see whether the Council accepts the report of the Select Committee.

but let us take of The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: In view of that decision pone the second proviso.
have expressed Hon.

Members on it.

themselves I ask leave to post­ Mt·.

EDUN : As I see it, the whole thing will have to be redrafted.

no provision There !& - Mr. GONSALVES: The o;l.ly difficulty The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: For laid Mr. E0UN: For t� principle The ,.TTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes, about that is this : Let us assume that what ?

the motion is put to accept the report and it ls voted against, as in the printed Bill will be the matter be­ fore the Counc!l.

then the section down here.


The CHAIRMAN : If the Select Com­ recommendation is lost, then we would hold that of this particular there is.

proviso over and decide what to mittee's proviso particular do with it.

Mr. GONSALVES: You are going to take a vote on the motion as to whether the Committee's accepteJ recommendation ls The CHAIRMAN : I am going to put whether this proviso as by the Select Committee, the question.

recommended should stand part of the Bill.


Mr. GONSALVES : With all due res­ we are pect to you, it is not the proviso (1 (e).

dealing with, but subclause Mr. JACOB : May I say this ?

It Is that has been granted finds approval with this clear the concession to the landlord Council.

feeling the concession bers of the landlord's Then further, of this Council aright, family.

grnnted to extend to mem­ if I can gauge the they want The CHAIRMAN: No: they voted in favour of the Select Committee's report.
J at this in arriving to I am going to endeavour Mr. JACOB : I just want, to make "TlY point.

As a member of the Committee found extreme difficulty conclusion.

get the Select and reconsider to recommit this matter.

the matter and Commmittee I.hen ask to meet again The question The CHAffiMAN : We are dealing is whether 7 < 1) of with the proviso.

the first proviso -as amended by the recommendation the Select Committee of the Bill.
to clause 8-section should stand part The CHAIRMAN : Not after voting on the matter !

I puL it so clearly everyone m Cow1cil knew what he was voting on.

that Mr. JACOB : I have not voted be­ Question put, and the Committee : - and voted as follows divided cause I felt - For: Messrs. Farnum, Thompson, Roth.

Edun and Critchlow, Genernl nnd the Colonial the AttornPy­ Secretiiry-7.

Tht CHAIRMAN: I think we must of the Council.


have voted I told those who abide by the decision Member couJd possibly any misapprehension.

No uncter 1769 Rent RestrictionLEGISLATIVJ.

; COUNCIL (Amclt.)

Bill 17i0 that they were limiting were voting for, the concessi on to the landlord and if they wanted the concession tended t.o his family they should say "No."

Those who wanted it extended said "No" and they were only himself ex­ in the minority.
I think it should be made for a period of twelve months back here for revision in the light of experience g·ained thought necessary at the end of that period, and then brought and what is may be done.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I on the ob­ of equity and where alternative pointed out that following servations of Members the second proviso hinged on the first.

That is a question of balance accommodation upon the discussion to the landlord in relation premises this house.
As I said at the beginning proviso they want it extendea to business in the same way as to dwelling­ must be held over.

is available.

Following Mr. SEAFORD : Why you want it to remain going four years ?

Is it to bring· conditions some reason for fixing 1951. to normalcy ?

There must be The CHAIRMAN : I think the answer is, as the hon.

Member and the previous speaker must realize, difficulty do not thinlc normal conditions Guiana, as regards in British of :h·ouses started.
ever expected to take place in British the normal provision Guiana, before then.

the Committee I rebuilding normally there is in getting The CHAIRMAN : You Wf'.nt Proviso, No.

2, held over.

That The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: is the position.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes, sir; and Members know that already.

Mr. EDUN: The hon.

Nominated Consideration of second proviso deferred.
Proviso 7 (7) to section The ATTORNEY�GENERAL: It is to acld pararaph (c) which will in all the grounds for obtaining pos­ desired bring· session.

not only here but all over of the and, I think, he Member who moved the deletion clause is a businessman ought to know that housing conditions are very difficult the world and moreso abroad.

I do not think we will be able to put things in order for the next ten years, and five years will be a period to secure all the knowledge we need.
No Mem­ experimentation that ber of this Council would the Bill should be for twelve months.

ever agree that · in Mr. SEAFORD: What is the mean­ ing of it ?

Mr. JACOB : May I suggest that this paragraphs The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The meaning of it ls this : If .you turn to page 12 you would see several to 7 ( 1) am!

cc l is one of the grounds for possession.

proviso behaved himselI, will be a ground for ejectment of the premises.
appreciates It is being inserted because where a tenant has mis­ I hope the hon.

Member as set out in (c).

that in this it.

or recovery Mr. SEAFORD: I appreciate it.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

Clallse 17-Amendment Principal of section Ordinance.

16 of the Mr. RAATGEVER : I am moving the of this clause.

I do not see the deletion necessity for exteMing the Bill to 1951. clause be deferred mittee go into it ?
and the Select Com­ Mr. FARNUM : I thinlc tl1e Commit­ tee went into it very exhaustively and tensively 1951. and was certa,inly in favour of ex­ including were in favour Mr. GONSALVES: Certain Members other were in favour of 1951 and certain Members, myself, of making it 1948 or 1949 as a compromise, as we felt 1951 was too long.

The hon.

the Attorney-General that will recollect in order to get around it he said, if you the period you can move \\ ant to shorten a motion to the effect.
When things get on the Statute Boole own it is the devil's Job to get them off.

Let us have it definite as 1949; if that is not acceptable, then 1948 and leave it at that.

I am getting.

1771 Re11f Rcslricfio11 I }!ARCH, l!J-17.

(,irndt.)

Bil/.

1772 to do that and, therefore, Mr. RAATGEVER: I do not see any tired of the whole Rent Restriction and Government legislation.

Bill ' Mr. JACOB : There is this other things here are going I hope we will aspect of it.

Certain to create severe hardship.


gain e:.:pf:rience.

is ad­ If Government amant and will not bring forward re­ peals or amendments, Government is safer to limit the Bill years.

or one year as suggested.

come up year after year in formal reso­ lution, is that Govem­ ment is not keen on having any amend­ ments.

We can do nothing at all once it is passed here.


to two or three It ca.n but the difficulty we cannot force it The CHAIRMAN I say this Bill is There is no point in referring If the Council to one year, say so.

Gov­ a matter for 1the Council.

wants it limited ernment is not pushing anything Council.

it to a Select Committee.· a proposal want it amended, Nominated Member ment?

do it now.

Is the hon.


moving an amend­ Here you have period; if you for a certain on the to have it limited Mr. SEAFORD : I clo not think the Council desires to one year.

The hon.

Member thinks amend­ and mt1king the Bill ments are necessary, for one year will give a chance of recon­ sideration at the end of the year.

Mr. CRITCHLOW: This question houses cannot be solved overnight.

population is increasing, period fixed is reasonable.

of The and I think the cannot get of people.


the expense of a vast majority Here, because a few landlords are suffering.

houses for themselves they The tenants are to be protected.

The whole principle .

tion fer extraordinary think, we ought to accept it.

Government has done the right thing.

and, I circumstances of this Bill is rent restric- in bringing the or extension is being created hardship Bill annually another precedent was enacted again after twelve months.

That is a more Bill than this one.


important for revision for period of twelve months.

We have in the Income Tax Bill which for twelve months to come up Mr. GONSALVES : I am going· and bring this matter to a head by mov­ ing that in clause 17 the word "forty­ cight" be substitu one" in paragraph of 1951. l!J48 instead ted for the word "ftfty­ (a), so that it will read to try .

Mr. THOMPSON : I ?.m supporting materials, nails through a transitory "1951".
At this time we find it very diffi­ cult to obtain building· etc.

We are passing period.

We have a great deal of experi­ mentation I think the best thing· to 1951.

One year will Therefore be 1951. hardly be enough.

that the period to get through and, therefore, I am supporting is to let the Bill run The CHAIRMAN : I will put the It is a matter for the Coun­ am in .favour of 1951.

I that clause 17 (a) amendment.

cil.


I personally will pt1t the amendment be amended to read "thirty-first December, eight" instead fifty-one."

day of hundred and forty­ of "nineteen nineteen hundred and Amendment put, and the Committee divided and voted as follows :- For : Mr. Gonsalves-I.

Mr. EDUN : I cc1.nnot understand the of people, Members when they for a Jni<;tjority Bill is contemplated a hardship for and especialiy I know this to the ten­ of certain mentality say it will create a hardship.
Rent Restriction provide ants.

·'Vie are not creating· them but for the landlords, for those people who want, to come from the country at the expense ready.

So I do not understand tality.

this kind will tal,e five years.

Travelling abroad at this time one sees conditions; one sees in England how the prosperity programme is qeing carried districts to live in Georgetown of those who are there al.'..
that men­ of out there at The point is, an expei·imentation Did not vote : Mr. Jacob and tha Colonial Treasurer-2.

Amendment negatived.

Against : Messrs. Farnum, Raat­ gever, Thompson, and Seaford, Colonial Secretary-9.

Edun, Roth, Critchlow the Attorney-General, the 177!-l R('11/ Ihs/n'cfion LEGTSLATIVE COUNCIL (.lmdt.)

Bill 1774 The CHAIRMAN : Does the hon.

Membel' want to move his Nominated motion?

Mr. RAATGEVER: I am moving the deletion of (a).

The CHAIRMAN : W'hat do you mean?


Mr. RAATGEVER : If you look a.t the it states a period of Ordinance original one year.

to sub­ We do not want unneces­ arrangement.

sarily to create difficulty in regard tenancy which has already taken place.

Then the second point is that the rent paid to the tenant should be controlled.

The sub-tenant Rent Assessor case he reg·ards has the right to go to the to have his rent fixed in it as being too high.

Mr. GONSALVES: The hon.


Member the section in the 1941 does not realize Ordinance will be the section.

Mr. RAATGEVER: It says "CL veriod of one year beginning commencement of this Ord.inance."

with the date of the Mr. GONSALVES : The trial is the voting!

Amendment put, and the Committee divided and voted as follows :- For : Messrs. Raatgever, Gonsalves, Seaford-3.

Against : Messrs. Farnum, Thomp­ son, Roth, Edun, Crltcblow, Treasure1', Colonial Secretary-a.
the Attorney-General, the the Colonia1 Did not vote : Mr. Jacob-1.

Amendment negatived.

Clause 18-Sub-letting.

without the permission view was that there should to the Committee.

This is one of on behalf of the With The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: cy, as of sub-tenan the regard to the question hon.

Members will see from the report, Committee's be no sub-letting of the landlord in writing-.
the points represented landlords as to whether the tenants the premises letting lords was considered, and thought the landlord tion to give permission any sub-letting of this operate from the commencement Ordinance, with so as not to interfere people who have already made this should be in a posi­ in writing without any reference rented for the purpose takes pl-ace.
to the land­ before That should The question shoulo utilize of sub­ the Committee There was one other point that is cov­ of the difficulties at some times I suggest that The Committee felt it in some way to limit it so as not for the ered, where the tenant as the result of the sub-tenancy has been In a creation posit.ion to make profits, fairly good profits.

desirable to create any financial has been dealt sub-tenants.
with by the manner in which these amendments have been the words "No vrofi,ts shall be made there­ by" will be rather difficult when you go to argue the matter in Court.

The new clause 18 as printed and I now 'move formally serted in the Bill.

framed.

has l)een put forward, that it be in­ To put in who has sub-let Mr .. GONSALVES: I think the hon.
will agree that this for both the landlord and of the house, whom you may as a tenant, because it to his people the rooms in the the right to do so and the Attorney-General clause provides the occupier like to describe gives to the tenant, less better-off l10use he has rented, it helps the sub-tenants means of control over their immediate lnndlord-tenant, done as he pleased.

tenant will be protected his immediate the landloi·d.

this class I think it of tenant will much appreciate.
is only fair that the provisions clause should obtain so as to prevent the houses of some landlords from being made real huts by some tenants.

The sub-tenant by this clause fl'om who is a tenant of landlord That is something who had in the past by giving them a of this as a Government have been always considering Ml'.

EDUN : I think this is indeed a and this that districts and in the past very wise provision.
Council migration from the country City should be reduced, this sub-letti of bringing tricts away with that and any tenant who en• ng business had a tendency people from tl1e country dis­ I think, this will do to Georgetown.

to the 1775 Rent U,a.sfri;f ion - 7 l\lARCR, ID47.

(Am!li.)

Bill 1776 Thursday, Attorney�General we adjourn until hon.

the draft of the proviso ready business.


March 13, the will have the and any other by this provision which to use his tenancy for profit will deavours be controlled is very wise indeed.

I have been asked to that when a tenant has raise the question gone to the expense for his of providing sub-tenant that should be taken into ac­ count by the Rent Assessor, is here also.

that provision but I think As the regard to the rent ·The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: hon.
Member will see, in clause 18 <c) there are the words "having payable to all Therefore, wide discretion matters.

by the tenant to the landlord the circumstances the Rent Assessor of the case."

is given a to all these with reg-ard and Mr. EDUN : I agree that he has a wide discretion.

That i.s The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: so, sir.

We can take the second reading and Tenant Bill, because of the Landlord it is a very long Bill and we will like to get on with it.

I hope hon.

Members will that.


appreciate Mr. GONSALVES : I think we can of both Bills at the take the third reading same time.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: not t-hink that can be done as quickly Lhe hon.

Member thinks.

I do as New clause 18 put, and agreed to.

Mr. GONSALVES : I think !

'-promise is a promise.

The CHAIRMAN: I think, Mr .. tht:: Attorney-General, Bill in Comm.tttee we had better leave stage.

The ATTORNEY -GENERAL : I agree with that.

Council resumed.
Council resumed.

The PRESIDENT : I want to get tr1i� Bill passed as quickly as possible and, if It was The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: thut we would have the Bill read, promised not to have it passed.

I appreciate the hon.

Member's sense ·of humour, however.

The CHAIRMAN: I adjoum the Council until 2 o'clock on Thursday, March 13.