Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698751257386.pdf (Malaysia)
Volllme I No.

15 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES) OFFICIAL REPORT CONTENTS MOTION- Fint Report of the Standing Orders Committee (Fint Sellioo) (CoL 1423] O::UALA LUMPUR PRINTl!D U THB GOVERNMENT PRESS BY a. T. PUDO& GOVERNMEHI' PRDITllll 1960 Price: Sl {_~ ...

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FEDERATION OF MALAY A DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOOSE bF REPRESENTATIVES) ,J • • ' .

• .
• .

Official Report First Session Qf tbe First Dewan· Ra'ayat W tdnesday, 9th December; 1959 The House met aiTen o'Clock q,m .

PRESENT: The Honourable ·Mr.

Speaker, 'DATO; HAJ1 MOHAMED NOAH BIN OMAR, D.P.M.J., P.1.s:·, 1.Y.

.

the Deputy Prinie Minister and Minister of Defence, TUN ABDUL.

RAZAK BIN DATO' HUSSAIN, S.M.N.

(Pekan) .

.

the Minister of Finance, MR. TAN Srnw SIN, J.P. (Malacca Tengah).

the Minister of ·Works, .. Posts·~ and Telecommunications, DATO' v .. T. SAMBANTHAN, P.M.N.
(Sungei Siput).

the .Minister of.

the .

Interior.

DATO' SULEIMAN BIN DATO' ABDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N.

(Muar Selatan).

the Minist~r of Transport, ENCHE' SARDON BIN HAJ1 Jus1R (Pontian Utara).

the Minister of Health and Social Welfare, DATO' ONG YOKE LIN, P.~.N .. CT.Jiu Selangor).

· the Minister of Education and Minister of Commerce and Industry, ENCHE' MOHAMED KHIR BIN J OHARI (Kedah Tengah).

· the Minister of .Labour, ENcHE' .BAHAMAN BIN SAMSUDIN (l(uala Pilah).
TUAN SYED JA'AFAR BIN HASAN ALBAR, J.M.N., Assistant Minister (Johore Tenggara).

ENCHE' ABDUL HAMID KHAN BIN HAJI SAKHAWAT ALI KHAN, J.M.N., J.P., Assistant Minister (Batang Padang).

TUAN HAJI ABDUL KHALiD BIN AWANG OSMAN, Assistant Minister (Kota Star Utara); ENCHE' ABDUL GHANI BIN ISHAK, A.M.N.

(Malacca Utara).

ENCHE' ABDUL RAUF BIN A. RAHMAN (Krian Laut).

ENCHE' ABDUL SAMAD BIN OSMAN (Sungei Patani).

TuAN HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI ABDUL RAOF (Kuala Kangsar).

TUAN· HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI MOHD.


SALLEH, A.M.N., P.I.S.

· (Segamat Utara).

TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH (Kota Bharu Hilir).

ENCHE' AHMAD BIN ARSHAD, A.M.N.

(Muar Utara).

~ i ~·J ~· ' '" ( !· 1419 9 DECEMBER 1959 1420 The Honourable ENCHE' AHMAD BoESTA).tAM (Setapak).

ENcHB' AHMAD BIN MOHAMED SHAH (Jobore Bahru Barat).

Tu.urH.w ARMAµ BQlf'Silm (Seberang Utara).

ijN,caB' ~ .. BIN HA:JI Yusof {Ktjall Darat).

TuAN HAn: .AzAHARI BIN HAn: IBRAHIM (Kubang Pasu Barat).

ENCHB' Aziz B~;I~ (Muar Dalam).


Dll.

BUIUIANUDDIN BIN MOHD.

NOOR.

(Besut).

Ma.

CHAN CHoMo WBN (Kluang Selatan).

MR. CHAk'.

SIANO SUN.

(Bentong).

MR. CHAN SwEE Ho (Ulu Kinta).

MR.. CHIN SE& Y.IN (Seremban Timor).

MR.. v. DAVID (Bungsar).

DATIN FATIMAH BINTI HAJI HASHIM, P.M.N.

(Jitra-Padang Terap).

MR.. GER CHONG KEAT (Penang Utara).

ENCHB' HAMzAH BIN Al.ANG.

A,M.N.

(Kapar).

ENCHE' HANAFI BIN MOHD.

YUNUS, A.M.N.

(Kulim Utara).

ENCHB' HARUN BIN .ABDULLAH (Baling}.


ENcHE' HARUN BIN Pu.us (Trengganu Tengah).

TuAN HAJJ HASAN ADLI BIN HAn: AllsHAD (Kuala Trenganu Utara).

TuAN HAn: HASSAN JUN HAJI AHMAD (Tumpat).

ENCHB' HASSAN BIN MANSOR.

(Malacca Selatan).

ENCHB' HUSSEIN BIN To' MUDA HASSAN (Raub).

ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN MOHD.

NOOR.DIN, A.M.N., PJ.K.

(Parit).

TUAN HAJI HUSSIN RAHIMI BIN HAJI SAMAN (Kota Bbaru Hulu).

ENCHB' IBRAHIM BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Seberang Tengah).

MR.. KANG KOCK SENG (Batu Pabat).


MR. K. KAR.AM SINGH (Damansara).

CHB' KHADUAH BINTI MOHD.

SIDIK (Dungun).

MR. KHONG KOK YAT (Batu Gajah).

MR. LEE SAN CaooN (Kluang Utara).

MR. LEE SECK FUN (Tanjong Malim).

MR. LEE SIOK YEW (Sepang) .. MR. LIM Joo KONG (Alor Star).

MR. LIM KEAN SIEW (Dato Kramat).

DR. LIM SWEE AUN, J.P. (Larut Selatan).

MR. LIU y OONG PENG (Rawang).

MR. T. MAHIMA SINGH (Port Dickson).

ENCHE' MOHAMED BIN UJANG (Jelebu-Jempol).

ENCHE' MOHAMED ABBAS BIN AHMAD (Hilir Perak).


ENcHB' MOHAMED ASRI BIN HAJJ MUDA (Pasir i>uteh).

ENCHE' MOHAMED DAHARI BIN HAJ1 MOHD.

ALI (K.uala Selangor).

ENCHB' MOHAMED Noa BIN MOHD.

DAHAN (Ulu Perak).

1421 9 DECEMBER 1959 1422 The Honourable DATO' MOHAMBD HANIFAH BIN HAJI MOUL GHANI, 'PJ.K.

(Pasir Mas Hulu), ENCHB' MOHAMED · SULONO lllN MOHD.

Au, J.M.N.

(Lipis).

ENCHB' 'MOHAMED YusoF BIN MAHMUD, A.M.N.

(Temerloh).

TUAN HAJI MOICHTAR BIN HAJI ISMAIL (Perlis Selatan).
NIK MAN BIN Nnc MOHAMED (Pasir Mas Hilir).

Ma, No ANN TECK (Batu).

DATO' ONN BIN JAAFAR, D.IC., D.P.MJ.

(Kuala Trengganu Selatan).

ENCHE' OrHMAN BIN ABDULLAH (fanah Merah).

ENCHE' OmMAN BIN ABDULLAH (Perlis Utara).

TUAN HAJI REDZA BIN HAJI MOHD.

SAID (Rembau-Tampin).

MR. SEAH TENG NGIAB (Muar Pantai).

MR. D. R. SEENIVASAGAM (lpoh).

MR. s .. P. SBENIVASAGAM (Menglembu).

TuAN SYED EsA BIN ALWEE, S.M.J., P.I.S.

(Batu Pabat Dalam).

TUAN SYED HASHIM BIN SYED NAM, A.M.N., P.J.K.

(Sabak Bemam).
(Sabak Bemam).

ENCHE' T AJUDIN BIN ALI (Larut Utara).

MR. TAN CHENG BEE, J.P. (Bagan).

MR. TAN KEB GAK (Bandar Malacca).

MR. TAN PROCK KIN (fanjong).

MR. TAN TYE CHEK (Kulim-Bandar Bahru).

TENGKU INDRA PETRA IBNI SuLTAN IBRAHIM, J.M.N.

(Ulu Kelantan).

DATO' TEOH CHzE CHoNG, D.P.MJ., J.P. (Segamat Selatan).

MR. v. VEERAPPEN (Seberang Selatan).

w AN MUSTAPHA BIN HAJI ALI (Kelantan Hilir).

w AN SuLAIMAN BIN w AN TAM (Kota Star Selatan).

WAN y AHYA .BIN HAJI w AN MOHAMED (Kemaman).

MR.


Woo SAIK HONG (felok Anson).

ENCHE' YAHYA BIN HAn AHMAD (Bagan Datoh).

MR. YEOH TAT BENG (Broas).

MR. YONG Woo MING (Sitiawan).

HAJJAH ZAIN BINTI SULAIMAN (Pontian Selatan).

TUAN HAJI ZAKARIA BIN HAJI MOHD.

T AIB (Langat).

ENCHB' ZULKIFLEE BIN MUHAMMAD (Bachok).

., The Honourable the Prime Minister, Y.T.M.

TUNKU ABDUL RAHMAN PuTRA AL-HAJ.

IC.O.M.

(Kuala Kedah).


ABSENT: the Minister of External Affairs, DATO' DR. ISMAIL BIN DATO' MDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N, (Johore Timor).

the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, ENCHE' ABDUL Aziz BIN ISHAK (Kuala Langat).

1423 9 DECEMBER 1959' f424 The Honourable ENCHE' ABDUL RAHMAN BIN HA.JI TALIB, Minister without Portfolio (Kuantan).

MR.' CHEAH THEAM SWEE (Bukit Bintang).

ENCHE' ISMAIL BIN IDRIS'.

(Penang· Selatan).

MR. LEONG KEE NYEAN (Kampar).

MR. v. MANICKAVASAGAM, r.M.N., PJ.K.

(Klang).


ENCHE' MOHAMED ISMAIL BIN ·MOHAMED YUSOF (Jerai).

MR. QuEic KAI DoNG (Seremhan Barat).

.

.

.

,.

The Honourable the Minister of Justice, TuN LEONG YEW KOH, S.M.N.

IN ATTENDANCE: .

.

(Motion) .

PRAYERS (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) .


ADJOURNMENT TO A .. LATER DAY Dato' Speaker, Ahli2 Yang Berhormat ingat usul yang di-bawa oleh Yang Berhormat Timbalan Perdana Menteri .dalam Dewan ini pada meshuarat yang lepas minta menerima Peratoran per bahathan dalam Dewan ini sa-bagai sementara:~ sa-bagai Peratoran2 per- bahathan di-gunakan sementara dan telah juga menetapkan Peratoran yang 'lbe Deputy Pnme M1~ (Ton ada ini sa-mata2-lah sa-bagai semen Abdul Razak): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I. beg .
tara sa-masa Peratoran itu di-ulangkaji · 'o.Ieh Jawatan-Kuasa yang di-lantek to move, That, notwithstanding the pro~sions of oleh Dewan ini; pada masa itu.

juga telah di~~ri .

pengakuan oleh Yang Standing Order 12, at its rising this day, this House do stand adjourned to Mon<Jay, Berhormat Timbalan Perdana Menteri ia-itfr Jawatan-Kuasa Tetap Peratoran2 14th December, 19S9, at 10 a.m. itu 'tentu-lah menghabiskan kerja-nya Suleiman): Sir, I beg to second the dengan · sa-~rapa chepat dan mungkin.
Saya sa~orang · daripada ahli Jawatan- motion.

Kuasa itu, Jawatan-Kuasa itu sudah .

··pun ' mengulangkaji Peratoran2 itu ·?engan sa-halu~2-nya, Tuan Speaker ia-lah.

Pengerusi-ny~2 dan report yang Standing Order 12, at its rising this day, ada d1-ha?~P~l} Ahli Yang ~rhormat this House do stand adjourned to Monday, pada pag1 m1 itu-lah yang telah dapat 14th December, 1959, at 10 a.m. Ouesuon put, and agreed to.
Resolved, That, notwithstanding the provisions of 'The' Minilter of the Interior (Dato' · di-kaji oleh Jawatan-Kuasa itu.

.

· · · MOTIONS FIRST REPORT OF THE STAND.

; ING ORDERS COMMITIEE (FIRST SESSION) Dato' Suleiman: Dato' Speaker, saya mengemukakan usul yang ada di-kertas ini dengan nama saya ia-itu Dewan ini menerima report yang pertama dari pada Jawatan-Kuasa Peratoran2 Tetap.
,Report yang pertama daripada Jawatan Kuasa Peratoran2 Tetap Dewan ini di kemukakan sa-bagai Kertas DR. 2 1959 dan berjalan kuat-kuasa-nya daripada hari penghabisan meshuarat Dewan ini.

Peratorani perbahathan sa-macham juga' Rang Undang2 atau pun Undang2 Kewangan, .
semua-nya orang tidak suka, ada banyak Ahli2 Meshuarat Yang Berhormat Dewan ini yang faham benar selok-belok dalam Peratoran perbahathan dan chukup faham dalam ilmu perbaliathan sa-hingga dapat ~r­ ikhtiar menchari jalan masa2-nya hendak menanggohkan sa-suatu usul yang di-bawa dalam meshuarat ini sa-tahun lama-nya.

Tetapi sama ada sa-orang Ahli Yang Berhormat mahir dalam selok-belok Peratoran p!rba hathan autu pun kurang faham dalam ilmu itu, perkara Undang2 perbahathan mesti.
;Iah ada juga dalam saperti 1425 9 DECEMBER 1959 1426 Jawatan-Kuasa perlnaiiiaii;·sama ada bermain bolaatau pun hockey bendak-lah ada peratoran2 bermain dan sa,-orang referee yang me mutuskan · sama · ada menyalahi per atonm .

itu : dan menetapkan kalah menang-nya.'

· · B.agaimana, pun ¥ya.

perchaya Ahli2 Yang Berharmat dalam Dewan: ini bersetuju dan sudalJ .pun kita bersetuju dahulu memileh sa"Orang daripada .

ahli yang di-pileh sa~bagai S~er .. dalam Dewan· ini,.
sa-kian, Dato' ·Speaker, terpulang-lah kapada Dato' Speaker melichinkan perbahathan dalam Dewan ini.

Dan ada masa-ny~ Ahli2 Yang Berhormat .

nampak-nya selalu ' juga .

baharu2 ini meilerima dengan ketas•nya .

tegoran daripada Dato' Speaker dan saya perchaya pagi Ahli2 Yang Berhormat dan · saya sendiri sentiasa menerima tegoran itu dalani itu masa: Jawatan-Kuasa Peratdran mengulab.gkaji Peratoran sementara:~ibi telab pun di-timbang dan di-fikirkan sangat .
patut-lah Peratoran2 Dewan Ra'ayat ini sa-berapa boleh-nya di~ samakan dengan Peratoran2 Dewan Negara.

Tetapi dalam pada itu pun tidak-lah pula itu menghadkan kuasa2-nya pada masa memikirkan dan membuat, .

memberi shor bei:kenaan dengan :undang2 yang di-fikirkan berpatutan di-adakan di dalam 'Dewan ini dan ahli2 Jawatan Kuasa tidak pula nienghadkan sunggop.

pun tadi saya katakan tujuan nya hencf,ak ,menchuba.

menyamakan ~a:berapa yang boleh.

Peratoran Dewa~ 1n1 dengan Dewan Negara.


Ahh2 Jawatan-Kua&a· itu telah· memberikan fikiran'-nya dengan .

tenang, saksama yang dengan· _ tidak · menghadkan mereka itu inesti sentiasa menchUba hendak .

m~nurut l>etatoran yang sudah dalam masa Kita bermeshuarat Per atoran2 Dewan Negara sudah pun habis dan tetap .. Sa-benar-nya Jawatan-Kuasa ini tidak ada mengeshorkan perubahan2 yang.
memberikan ·terperanjat dalam Peratoran2 sementara yang telah di terima., oleh Dewan ini · pada 12 Sep ten,ibcr, ·yang Iepas •.

Yang Berhormat Timbhl~ Perdana Menteri pada masa m,embawa usul mengemukakan.

Per atoran semen.tarn ini telah juga me mlnta' dan mengeshorkan jika, ada.
apa2 'pindaan daripada Ahli2 shor atau Yartg B!i:Qormat · di-minta · hantarkan kapada · ·Jawatail-Kuasa yang tersebut itu supaya dapat di-timbangkan dengan halus-nya shor atau pinda:an yang di kehendaki itu, Jawatan-Kuasa itu .tidak ada.

menerima apa2 pun· sh or atau pin.:.

daari.

yang di-kehendaki Sa"masa Jawa" tan-Kuasa itu bermeshuarat mengulang kaji Peratoran2 sementara ini.

.

Dengan , demikian, saya perchaya boleh-lal:>.


saya mengambil ketetapan daripada· tidak · ada-nya shor atau pin gaan yang di-kehendaki itu di-hantar kapada Jawatan-Kuasa, Ahli2 Yang Berhormat sedia meletakkan tanggong jawab-nya .bagi mengulangkaji Per aroran2 sementara ini kapada Jawatan· Kuasa itu atau pun Ahli2 Yang.

Ber hormat tidak ada apa2 shor dalam Peratoran sementara itu yarig patut di kemuka~an kapada Jawatan-Kuasa itu.

Oalam.
Oalam.

pada itu pun sa"l~pas Peratoran yang di-kemukakan ini di-terima dan jika kemudian-nya ada apa2.
sh of a tau pindaan yang di-kehendaki pada 01em perbaiki perjalanan perbahath~n sa lepa,s · mendapat pengalaman ata~ ex.perience kemudian hari k~lak, Jawa~ tan-Kua8a itu sentiasa boleh l:n~ri&ima clan menghalu,si· sh~r2 ·<lan pindaan' y~ng di-kahendaki · · itu, kerana Jawatah Kuasa yang ·tersehut itu telkh pun di lantek dan 'di-angkat oleh Dewan irii sa-masa satu session.· Pindaanl ·yang ada dalam report · di-hadapan Ahli2 Yang Berhormat pada pagi ini.
sudah pun di-sebutkan sebabl-nya di•kehen• daki pindaan itu juga dalam report itu kalau , Ahli2 Yang Berhormat lihat dalam Appendix A. Dalam report yang ada di-hadapan Ahli2 Yang Berhormat, ada beberapa perkara yang patut saya rasa di-tenu'lgkan sadikit.

di-sini.

dan menarek perhatian Ahli2 Yang Berhor mat Pertama~nya, · berkenaari dengan perbahatha:n di-atas Rang · Undang2 Kewangan atau Budget Peratoran 66 (2) yang menghadkan perbahathan .1 hari.
Jawatan-Kuasa· telah mengeshorkan supaya di-lanjutkan sa~tinggi2-nya · 3 hari, · dalam perbahathan Committee stage .dulu 5 hari Jawatan-Kuasa itu meng6shorkan ' sa-tinggi2-nya ·· 14 hari lama-nya.

· ·Sa ya hatap masa perbahathan tidak di~hadkan dengan · keras kerana tttjuan ia-Iah bendak Kerajaan Perikatan memberi sa-penoh peluari'g kapada AhJi2 Yang Berhormat yang menentang 1427 9 DECEMBER 1959 1428 .. mengkeritik.
juga di-samakan kita supaya dapat banyak masa dan sa-penoh2 peluang menyflideki, mem· serta memt>m bacha, fikiran dan shor2 yang mendatangkan fa'edah kapada ra'ayat dalam n~ juga di-bawah PCratoran ini.

Dan 67 Peratoran perbahathan b&kenaan dengan Rang Undang2 tambahan ke wangan atau supplementary estimate, itu perbahathan dengan Rang Undang2 kewangan tiap2 tahun ia-itu Supply Bill.
Ahli2 Jawatan· Kuasa juga mengeshorkan pindaan di bawah Peratoran 36 ia-itu perkataan2 menderhaka atau ~rma'ana sama der· haka atau perkataan ia-itu treasonable words atau perkataan2 yang akan mengapi atau menaikkan semangat yang menyebabkan perasaan tidak baik atau pun memusohi di-antara kaum2 dalam Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ini tidak di-benar di-gunakan di-dalam Dewan ini.
Saya faham dasar saperti ini tentu-lah semua Ahli2 Yang Ber hormat bersetuju dan ahli Jawatan Kuasa yang membuat recommendation ini yang di-pileh oleh ra'ayat jelata di minta supaya di-masokkan dan di terima Peratoran ini dengan tujuan menjauhkan bahasa yang menaikkan semangat perkauman.
Ahli2 Yang Ber· hormat semua sa-bagaimana saya kata· kan tadi ia-lah ahli2 yang di-pileh yang bertanggong-jawab kapada sakalian negeri ini dan bukan-lah bertanggong jawab kapada sa-pehak atau satu kaum dalam negeri Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ini.

· itu semasa Dewan Lain pula berkenaan dengan "breach of privileges" atau pun melanggar privilege sudah juga di-shorkan di dalam Peratoran 80 ia-itu Ahli2 Yang Berbormat boleh-lah membawa per ini ber kara2 meshuarat.
Jikalau ada pelanggaran2 peratoran, Dato' Speaker jika puas hati ada terlanggar privilege itu, ia ada kuasa menghantarkan perkara itu ka pada Jawatan-Kuasa Privileges.

Ber kenaan dengan ini Dato' Speaker, saya ~butkan di-sini ada Undang2 privileges ini ia-itu Law on these matters of privi leges House of ·Parliament Ordinance, dengan 1952~Undang2 berkenaan privilege, kuasa dan privileges yang telab di-luluskan dalam tahun 1952.
Di-dalam Undang2 itu ada d~an apa dia kuasa dan privileges di-d&lam nya boleh di.W.pati oleh Abli2 · Yang Berhormat kedua2 Dewan Ra'ayat dan Dewan Negara.

Dan saya akan.

dn chari jalan supaya Undang2 ini di· jilid dan di-chap semula dan dapat-lah di-berikan kapada tiap2 Ahli dan yang lain2 juga.

Di-dalam Peratoran 99 ada sadikit salah taip ia·itu hurup .

"any" atau "tiap2" telah tertinggal sa-belum di dalam perenggan kata "effective pri, vileges" ia-itu perkara perjalanan biasa.
Ini ada·lah semata2 tertinggal pada masa m!naip report itu.

Pada akhir nya, Dato' Speaker, dalam Peratoran 100 Jawatan-Kuasa meng!shorkan ia-itu P~ratoran sementara yang t!lah mengatakan jika tiada apa2 P!ratoran di·dalam-nya yang· boleh di·tujukan kapada satu2 perkara yang di-bawa di-dalam Dewan ini, Dato' Speaker ada ~rkuasa m!nurut petjalanan atau practice Dewan di-United Kingdom.
Practice of House of Commons, Parlia ment of the United Kingdom itu t!lah di-shorkan supaya Dato' Speaker ada kuasa boleh mengatorkan semua per~ kara2 m!liputi ~bendak2 dan tne'1ga ruling atau k~putusan yang dakan patut yang· di-gunakan dalam Dewan2 negeri Commonwealth.
Ahli2 Jawatan Kuasa faham m!mberi kuasa kiipada Dato' Speaker dngulangkaji perja lanan biasa bukan-nya sahaja mengu langkaji Jawatan-Kuasa dan , dapat menggunakan practice dalam United Kingdom atau perjalanan Peratoran di-dalam Dewan United Kingdom tetapi semua Dewan2 di-dalam n~eri Commonwealth.
Ini ia-lah dalam per kara2 yang tidak ada Peratoran-nya di-dalam P!ratoran2 ·kita yang saya bawa pada pagi ini dan harap di t!rima oleh Ahli2 Yang Berhormat dalam Dewan ini, dan juga ada-lah dengan yang dem.ikian, kuasa sa-bagai Dato' Pengerusi m!ngambil fabaman dan m!nggunakan jika boleh di-guna kan daripada negeri2 lain juga yang di-fikirkan Dato' Speaker, patut di gunakan dalam Dewan ini.
Tuan Speaker, perkara yang peng saya h!ndak m&lyatakan habisan 9 DECEMBER 1959 1430 1429 di"siil ia-itu · shor2 atau · recommenda tion daripada Jawatan-Kuasa ini di minra Ahli2 Yang mrhormat dalam Dewan' ini menerima menjalankan kuat-lcuasa-nya saya sa-bagaimana katakan tadi daripada hari penghabisan sa-~ habis meshuarat Dewan yang ada.

ini.

mngan yang ~mikian tidak lah kita semua pening kepala mana satu nratoran hendak di-pakai.
sama ada Nratoran sementara yang ada pada hari ini atau pun Peratoran yang saya IQinta luluskan pad~ pagi ini.

Tuan Speaker, saya shorkan usul dan report ini di-terima oleh Dewan ini (Tepok).

I leave it to the wish of the House whether they want me to continue as Speaker for the debate on this motion, or whether they want someone else to take my place temporarily-for the debate on this motion only.

Dato' Ono bin Jaafar: Tuan Speaker, saya membawa perhatian kapada Standing Orders No.
6 ada pun me nurut Fasal 57 di-dalam Undang2 Nrlembagaan.

"The House of Representatives shall from time to time choose one of its members to be Yang di-Pertua Dewan Ra'axat (Speaker) and one to be Deputy Speaker, ' Dalam Standing Orders No.

6 ter sebut, • Sardoa): Saya menyokong usul ini.


The Minister of Transport (£nche' "At the first convenient sitting of a newly elected House, or at the commencement of Public Business at the first meeting of the House after a vacancy in the office of Deputy Dato' Oun bin Jaafar (Kuala Tring Speaker has occurred, the House shall pro pna 8elatan): Tuan Speaker, sa-bagai ceed to the election of a Deputy Speaker," tegoran saya berkenaan dengan cha Why has this not been done so far?
dangan ini ada perkara yang berkaitan Dato' Suleiman: Dato' Speaker, per ia-itu dengan Tuan Speaker sendiri yang menjadi P!Sngerusi bagi Jawatan- tama sa-kali biar-lah saya menjawab Kuasa ini ada-lah Tuan Speaker.
maka · kapada Ahli Yang mrhormat dari sekarang Penyata daripada Jawatan- ~uala Tdngganu SClatan ia-itu tujuan Kuasa itu hendak di-bahathkan di-sini; ktta hendak melantek Deputy Speaker de~gan sa~berapa segera, malang-nya maka Tuan Speaker menjadi Penge- kel')a terlampau banyak pada masa rusi-nya bagaimana bagitu?

ini; ini-lah baharu meshuarat perjum paan yang pertama dan kita akan pileh dengan sa-berapa segera-nya.

Dan yang kedua.
Dan yang kedua.

Dato' Speaker, saya shorkan kapada Abli2 Yang Berhormat ia-itu Dato' Speaker sendiri pengerusi kan meshuarat ini, kerana bagaimana kata Ahli Yang mrhormat dari Kuala tidak ada Trengganu SClatan Timbalan-nya, saya shorkan Dato' Speaker juga dudok sa-bagai Pengerusi dalam meshuarat ini (Tepok).
tadi itu dalam Majlis ini di-dalam Majlis Mr. Speaker: Ahli2 Yang mrhormat saya bCrbanyak2 terima kaseh pada Ahli Yang Berhormat Dato' Onn kerana pada dasar-nya biasa-nya tentu lah tiap2 Pengerusi di-dalam sa-buah Jawatan-Kuasa dia-lah yang membawa rundingan ini.

Malang-nya pada kali ini saya telah di-pileh oleh Dewan ini termasok juga ahli pembangkang yang • saya jadi Speaker-nya menegah saya membawa rundingan ini.
Saya hendak pulangkan (I leave it) kapada Dewan ini, jika sa-kira-nya Dewan ini fikir patut sa-orang lain daripada saya, kerana pada dasar bagaimana yang di-terangkan tadi betul, patut sa-orang ahli yang ada pada hari ini menjadi Pengerusi atau menjadi Speaker s!mentara bagaimana yang ada dalam Peratoran ini, saya sanggup.lah memberi tempat ini ka pada sa-orang yang di·fikir yang di pileh oleh ahli2 Dewan ini.

Maka saya puJangkan-lah.


Mr. Speaker: I still leave it to the wish of this House-whether they want me to preside over this debate.

£nche' Zulld8ee bin Muhammad (Bachok): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya menyokong (Tepok).

Mr. Speaker: I take it that it is the that I should wish of this House preside over this debate.

Dato' Oun: Sir, on a point of expla nation, I have nothing against you personally.

(Laughter).

The question 1431 9 DECEMBER 1959 149~ , .


• like says I ask Dato Suleiman: Saya chakap chu- rais€;4 by me is a question of principle Sir.

this Parliament comes .mt<f being based·.

:9n the constitutional law.

The qnder the Constitution ofrthis country;, that a Deputy and the Constitution of this co.unity, Constitution Speaker must be appointed; the constitution of· any.· other why · has a Deputy Speaker not been democratic country, contains a provi- sion which protects and ·safeguards appointed?
Members of this House.

And it.is my submission to-day to all the Members kup,-lah.

terang dengan b~hasa ¥elayu, of this House, from whiche'Wtt side kalau .

tida~ terang ~ag1tu-ta ta~u- they may come; that .

this proposed lah.

ktta he!1dak sa-be!apa lekas.

Kita amendment ·tQ Standing Order .. 36 harap.

J?ato Speaker J~lankan meshu- should be.

a proposal to be condemned arat m1 kerana Dato S~ker tahu by this House and not to be.

approved banyak perka~a dan Dato Speak~r by it with claps and cheers.
I would refer to Article 63.

To start with; sub chukup-~ah chekap dalam s~rba-serb1- nya.

Kita v ak~n.

angkat.

dengan sa- clause (2) says : berapa segeta, m1 saya fikir chukup-lah terang-nya · .

, · D .

ato Y:ang Berhormat Men~en tidak men- jawab ~rtany!lan saya.

Saya tanya kenapa tidak d1-angkat Deputy Speaker d" kVh)( d k" d sa-baga1mana: yang I- e en a I .

a- lam Undang2 Perlembagaan dan JUga published by or under P~aforan ini?

.

N<?

person shall b_e liable to any pr~d- m¥s m any court.
m respe.ct .

of anyth!fig said or any vote.

given by hnn when: takmg .

• .

ua.n pea er, part in any proceedings of either House .of d .

·bl · 1 e 1.a e () any prQcee - ing in·· any court in respect of mytbing the auth<>rity of Parliament or any committee thereof."

Further, sub-clause (3) says : ·.

b "N. : · either House of Parliament.''

· 'Onn · Jaafar• T h 11 o person s .

a bm .

.

..• S k .. · t. .

.

. "'

Sir, I refer to Article 63 to show · ' · •.

· .


~: Speak~r: Sa-benar-nya ~aya sen- · how careful the framers of the· Cons titution of this democratic oountry din telah mmta ~berapa kah supaya Deputy: Speaker .

d1-angkat.

have been to safeguard not only the , Tun, Abdo.I Razak: Tuan Speaker, Members ~f Parliam~nt but als?

· tho~e sl\Ya' suka.

rt1.1Snegaskan bahawa lan- who publish ~hat 1s spo~en ·m ~s tekan Deputy S~ker itu · akail di- House of Parliament-that 1s.
the basis jalankan pada meshuarat sa-kali lagi .of democracy: ~hat does this amend- ia-itu 14 haribulan ini.

ment to Standing Order 36 amount to?

Let us consider it.

Before we go to consider it in detail let us ·examine wish of the House that I should preside our own position in fuis House.

We have Members who come to this House over this debate.
on different platforms, who have theories preached different political and who have different political beliefs with definite fundamental differences on either side of this House.

Mr. Speaker: I take it that it ts the HONOURABLE MEMBERS : .yes!

.

.

.

Interior when moving to Mr. D.R.

Seenivasagam (Ipoh): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have heard the intro duction by the Honourable the Minister that of Uie these amendments.
the Standing Orders be accepted by ·this House~ I am sad to note that the Honourable Minister did not in his usual way have a humourous vein.

Perhaps there is a reason for that.

I would suggest that the · Honourable Minister himself knows that he is asking this House to accept something which should be condemned from the very outset-:-and that is why that humour is absent to~day.
· Mr' .. Speaker, Sir, when we come here, we intend to keep up tho~ pro mises and to speak what we said we would speak for when we were elected by the people, whether we are from the Peoples' Progressive Party of Malaya, the Alliance or any other political organisation in this country.

The proposed amendment to Stand ing Order 36 is suggested by a Committee which did not consist .

of any :Peoples' Progressive Party'Si repre sentative but of representat.i.Y4;~.
Jrom 143'3' 9 DECEMBER 1.959 1434 other political organisations which are repre8Cnted in this House.

The amend ment .to 1he Standing Order reads : "Insert the following new paragraph at the end thereof: ·'(10) It shall be out.of order to use (a) treasonable words; (b) seditious words; ,:1 : · .

, .

(c) words which are · likely to promote feelings of in-will or hostility between diffe rent communities in the Federation.'

" Mi~ Speaker, Sir, what are treason able words, what are seditious words?
It has taken time, great length of tinie, .

'for people with high judicial knowledge sitting as· judges in courts in ·courts in England, in courts in India, in courts in democratic coun tries4o find out whether a man has said something seditious or whether a man has said something treasonable.
Sir, I do not for one moment under estimate the brilliance of any Speaker who may occupy the office of the Speaker of Parliament-and when I say "Speaker", I refer to the office and not thc:i. individual who sits in the ·of Mr. Speaker.

However Chair brillianf a man may be, he cannot reasonably be expected to say what is treas<>n, what is sedition, in a split second.

I ·say that it is unfair, it is improp,er, to place that burden on the Speaker of this House whoever he may be from time to time.

'.
'.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, what are words which are likely to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility between the different communities in the Federation?

H I standup here and say, "I want Chinese to be'.

the official language", I have no doubt that it will cause some illfeeling amongst ;our Malay brethren in this land.

So is the .case when our ,friends from the .

other side of the House.

were to stand up and say, "We want a Malay reservation"-!

have no doubt there '.will 'be some illfeeling amongst the.
dther races in this country.

Are we g~fug ... to .

be stopped from asking them 'in this House?

Are we going to say, '.

'You cannot say.

this, because somebOOy will be very angry"?

Sir, is it sense, is it responsibility to say, "Y 0 u cannot say this in this House"?

What·iare· we here for?

We are here to preach certain political beliefs.

We believe in the principle of ~uality.

We must have a right to say it m this House, otherwise why are we allowed to come to this House.
On the public this country political platforms of from the year 1955, political organisa tions in this country have been saying things which are of · a communal nature.

If they are things which raise illfeeling, why has not the Government of this country taken action against politicians who have said them?

Be .cause, I say, they are not matters which are prohibited in any democratic country: _and that is why the Deputy Public Prosecutor· cannot and will not take action.
Why .should we be deprived of that in this Parliament?

Is this not the House where reason and commonsense and good nature prevail?

Is this.

not the place where the views of the people who sent us here as representatives must be ex pressed and listened to-and if you like disagree with them?

If this is :i:iot the place, where is the proper place?

Is it the public padang?

Do you prefer that to this?


Do you want to drive the politicians -to express their views, which may be sometimes explosive, on the public political platfornis in ~e country rather than in this House for people who have been ele<:ted, listen to them and decide one way or an other?

Sir, this provision deprives, as I say, evei:y Member of this right to speak, his right to speak within the laws of this country-and, in fact, when a Member speaks in this House he is above the law.
Even the law respects a Member of Parliament, because Article 63 says that no action can be taken against a Member of Parliament when he speaks in _this House.

Why is the law so careful?

The law is careful to see that a Mem ber of Parliament is not muzzled he should not be muzzled in any way.

His good sense, his commonsense, his good reasons, must guide his conduct within this House.
Standing Orders are made for one purpose and one purpose only; and that one purpose is· to regulate the procedure, to reg~te the conduct of Members in this House by the Speaker elected by this House.

1435 9 DECEMBER 1959 1436 They should never be used as an instrument to lay down what a Mem ber can say and what a Member cannot say.

Now, what is the motive?

Why does this Committee suggest this amendment to Standing Order 36?
It is suggested, in my opinion, and I am sorry to say, that it was a unanimous suggestion of this Committee, with a view to muzzle the Opposition.

It is a measure which has been brought in by the Alliance Government in an attempt to fetter or.

to muzzle Opposition Members in this House.

Dato' Onn bin Jaafar: Hear, hear!

Mr. D. R. Seenivasagam: Mr. Speaker, Sir, we oppose it.

We are not going to be muzzled.

Dato' Onn bin Jaaf.ar: Hear, hear!


Mr. D. R. Seenivasagam: We are going to say what we are entitled to by the Constitution of this country and say it in this Parliament.

We will at all times be subject to the order of Mr. Speaker who sits in the Chair, but l would ask every Member of this House, every Member of the Alliance, to realise to-day you sit on that side, may be one day you will sit on this side.

Remember that this Standing Order will still be in existence.
When that day comes, do not blame anybody who may be sitting on that side for what may happen when that time comes.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is not a political matter.

This is not a matter of party difference.

It is a matter which each Member of Parliament must decide for himself.

We, who have been sent here, have a duty to perform.

In this country the people have had their liberties curtailed one by one.
It is not necessary to go into detail-suffice to mention the Emergency Regulations, Prevention of Crimes Ordinance, Registration, they say, of bad hats, gangsters and thugs, but we know innocent people are also lugged into that net.

Now, Sir, an attempt has been made to muzzle Members of Parliament.

What kind of democracy is this?


When I mentioned "guided democracy" the other day, it was the Honourable the Prime Minister, I think, who said that "guided democracy means that you the Government, or cannot attack criticise the Government".

or words to that effect.

True I If this is not gµided democracy, what is it?

Is this not an attempt to say, "Do not criticise the Government •.

Do not try to tell us you want equality.


Do not try to tell us you want, perhaps, a reservation for our Malay brethren, something .

for our Chinese brethren.

You must not say that; say something good of the Govern ment.

We give you freedom of speech.

but that is all you are entitled to say."

This is what it amounts to.


In the course of this meeting itself, I have said many things which no doubt have raised a communal issue, and which I acknowledge raised a com munal issue, but I say I am entitled to do that.

I am entitled to say what I have been sent here to be said-and I say it.

So have all the other Honourable Members of this House the right to raise matters which are clearly of a communal nature.

But I say that any Member, wherever he may come from.
is entitled to raise such matters within the walls of this House, and he is entitled to the protection of this House.

That is all I ask for.

that we of Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to give an the Peoples' assurance Progressive Party, who sit here, at all times bow to the prders of the Chair.

but in doing so we will also try to maintain the privileges given us bY the Constitution.
We will try to discharge our duty to the electorate, and in doing tkat no amount of threats, no amount of intimidation, no amount of muzzling will stop us, either in this .

House or 'lay to the outside of this House.

I Government, "H you want to muzzle us.

there is only one way-and that is to lock us up in the jails of this country."

That is the only way you can do it and no other way.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I move tbat the amendment proposed to Standing Order the proposed 36 be deleted from amendment to the Standing Order.

Mr. Speaker: Have you the amend ment in writing?

Mr. D. R. Seenivasapm: I move that the whole amendment be deleted.

'1437 9 D~CEMJ}ER 1959 1438 .

· "d: T .DBD sa-saorang Haji · Ahmad bin s· • .

~.

Speaker: The motion before the Mr. Speaker: Article 63 is quite clear.

There is no need to interpret it in any way.


itu mengatakan sa-orang boleh berchakap di-dalam Ho-qse_ is a motion, .

That the First Report of the Standing Orders Committee, tabled as Paper No.

DR. 2 of 1959, be adopted, with effect from the 881 ·.

: • : • end of this meeting, subject to deletion of 1adi, Tuan Yang dt-Pertua, wakil Ipoh itu bebas the prop08ed amendment to Standing Order flatfomi 3.6. .
Mr. D. R. Seenivatagam: Correct, Pilehan Raya dengan tidak ada gapg- guan berkenaan dengan Nrlembagaan S1r.

.

Date' Ono bin Jaafar: Sir, on a point ata~ apa.2.

J~di saya suka m~narek per of clarification, does the House go into hatian wakil.

Ipoh.

sa-baga1 sa·orang lo)'.ar y~ng b1a~a ~tchara dalam court Committee to discuss this?

yang b1asa ter1ad1 satu perkara p&- Mr. Speaker: No.
But I would like gac;lohan atau pun yang menyakiti hati to warn Honourable Members that I sa-hingga mendatangkan may ; have to exercise Standing Order perbunohan, dengan chara satu section, 78 (2), that is to say when there are saya pun tidak tahu-provocation; sa new amendments-that is, when they orang boleh berchakaf apa juga tetapi ai;e not amendments to amendments manakala jadi sa-olah provocation, dia proposed by the Committee, which can tetap sa•kali di-da'awa kerana dia be dealtwith in this Houso-:-they shall mengeluarkan chakap jadi dua stand referred to the Standirig Orders pehak bergadoh-dia akan dj-da'awa.
Jadi tidak ada apa2 pergadohan, ini Committee.

berma'ana dia boleh bebas berchakap, .

Mr. K.ltong Kok Y at (Ba~ G*Jah): bagitu juga boleh berchakap dalam flatform memberi penerangan Pilehan Raya atau memberi penerangan apa.2 jikalau dengan per juga.

Tetapi chakapan yang memberi penerangan dalam ftatform itu niem bangkitkan huru-hara dan J)e'rgadohan dalam.

negeri ini, baharu-lah orang itu akan di-da'awa, akan di-tangkap.

Me ngikut 149 dalam Perlembagaan ini.


"If an Act of Parliament recites that action has been taken or threatened by substantial body of persons.

any whether inside or outside the Federa tion, to cause.

or to cause a substantial number of citizens to fear, organised violence against persons or property.

any provision of that law designed to stop or prevent that action is valid notwithstanding that it is inconsistent with any of the provisions of Articles 5, "Article 5 kata kita beri liberty".
Taaa Haji Ahmad bin '8aaid (sehe rang Utara): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya telah mendengar ia-itu wakil dari Ipoh hendak mendatangkan satu pin daan, daripada laporan yang di kemukakan dengan alasan mengikut Perlembagaan Tanah Metayu No.

63 "No person shall be liable to any proceeding in any court."

Jadi barangkali wakil lpoh t!rkeliru sadikit dia anggap Dewan Ra'ayat yang kita bersidang ini sa-bagai court.

di-sini saya dapati wakil lpoh itu ter• keliru.

Yan~ k&lua.
Yan~ k&lua.

kata-nya, "Tiap2 o~ng kita di-sini dan ra'ayat dalam Persekutuan ini mesti-lah di-beri ke bebasan yang penoh untok apa juga yang dia hendak chakap .

.

.

. "

.

Mr~ Speaker: This is an amendment to an amendment by the Committee.

Therefore it can be debated in this House.

Sir, I beg to second the motion.

Persekutuan orang2 Dato' Onn bin Jaafar: Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a point of clarification, I submit that Article 149 has got nothing to do with this debate.

itu, Mr. D.R.
itu, Mr. D.R.

Seenivasapm; Mr. Spea ker, Sir, on a point of clarification.

I t})ink the Honourable Member clearly did not understand the language in which I spoke.

I said why I read Article 63-to show how careful the Constitution is to protect Members of Parliament-and I never said the public · niust ~ve full power.

· Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Said: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, wakil Kuala Treng ganu SClatan mengatakan tidak ber· sangkutan dengan saya menarek perhatian No.

10 dalam Pertembagaan.


"Subject to Clause (2) to (a) evecy citizen has the right tetapi ini 1439 9 DECEMBER 1959 1440 freedom of speech and expression;" tentu sendiri tidak bCrsetuju;·~inpama­ dia boleh berchakap dan dia boleh nya saya katakan, saya menuntut hak2 mengeluarkan fikiran, 149, 5, 9, atau bagi orang China, kalau tidak :dapat 10 jadi berma'ana kalau.

dia boleh yang di-kehendaki, kita mem~tuntak.

'Ah, ini-lah barangkali bahlisa.


)'ang mengeluarkan fikiran dia poleh her- akan di-tahan oleh Tuan.

Y ~pg di chakap dengan bersharat tidak mem- tidak Pertua, tetapi kalau di-katakari kami bangkitkan pergadohan dan perkelahian.
Dari orang China menuntut kapada K.era membangkitkan puncha orang yang mengeluarkan ini akan chakap atau pun asas mengeluarkan menimbang-nya, maka saya rasa ini chakap provocation itu, orang itu akan bukan-lah membangkitkan · perasaan di-da'awa, iru berma'ana dalam Per- yang boleh perkataan itu di-sekat · oleh Iembagaan memelihara supaya tiap2 Tuan Yang di"Pertua, · Jadi' saya kebebasan berchakap atau kebebasan .

rasa .

.

.

apa pun mesti ada perenggan dan sempadan, sa-kian-lah Tuan Speaker.
jaan, yang mana rumah .

.

··· jadi pembangkang, :t.aiche' Mohamed Yusof bin Mahmud (Temerloh): Tuan Speaker, saya tidak bCrsetuju atas amendment yang di.

: bawa oleh wakil lpoh tadi, dia ber dasarkan ia-itu dengan ada-nya Bab 36 in .. i akan menutup mulut2 daripada barisan pembangkang.

Saya suka menarek perhatian beliau ada-lah amendment ini yang telah di-pe~tu~ tiga perempat daripada jukan oleh pehak pehak pembangkang mana-kah yang di katakan bagi menutup mulut2 daripada barisan pembangkang?
Tuan Speaker, yang lagi · satu sebab saya tidak ber tidak dapat setuju kata dia, kita sath per membedzakan mana-kah kataan yang di-katakan seditious, perkataan yang tidak boleh menye tidak bCrsetuju bagi Tuan bal>kan, Speaker.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, .saya rasa Tuan Yang di-Pertua chukup berpengalaman dan mahir dalam hal berkenaan hurof2 dan bahasa2, saya perchaya-lah Tuan Yang di-Pertua b o I eh membedzakan2 penggunaan hurof2 yang di-keluarkan oleh Ahli2 Yang :Qerhormat supaya sesuai dengan tempat-nya.
Kami di-sini perchaya, saya rasa rumah ini perchaya penoh kapada Tuan Yang di-Pertua yang akan · sa-halus2-nya menggunakan dengan bagi menimbangkan atas perkataan2 yang di-keluarkan oleh tiap2 Ahli Yang Berhormat.

ltu-lah saya rasa, jikalau lah umpama-nya sa-orang Ahli Yang Berhormat mengeluarkan satu per .
boleh membangkitkan kataan yang pergadolian di-dalam negeri ini, saya tasa, bahkan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua Mr. D. R. Seenivasagam: Mc.- Spea ker, on a point of clarification; if I ·say "the Chinese demand .

.

.

'''"'""'-is ... that treason?

.

r .

:itnche' Mohamed Y usof biJi.

·MBh mnd: Saya kata · lnithalan.

Harap- de: ngar dan fahamkan apa yang ·Saya katakan.

Dato' Ono bin Jaafar: Saya.

suka hendak mengatakan kapada Alili Yang Berhormat itu, pehak ini pehak pem bangka:ng, bukan-nya pehak peilgampu.
Dato' Suleiman: Mr. Speaker, Sir.

will the Honourable Members of the Opposition allow to speak?

the Member · Mr. Speaker: Yes, Members· will have their tum to talk.

· · · Please proceed.

:itnche' Mohamed Yusof bU., Mah mud: Saya dukachita sadikit; .

saya tidak dapat memanjangkan uchapan saya tadi.

Saya rasa faham-lah.

dalaoi uchapan saya tadi ia-itu dalam hal segi huruf atau .

bahasa yang saya katakan .


boleh menjadi pergadohan a tau me.njadi · emergency dalam negeri ini,Jni-lah huruf yang kita "tidak mahu.

Tetapi bagaimana yang relah di .

bahasa katakan : ma'ana Me I a y u "demand"-"minta" tadi bukan-lah perkataan yang akan di-sekat, ~tapi tidak dapat kita perkataan "jika membertmtak," .ini-lah hurufsaja fikir patut Tuan Speaker memab,am-nya.

Saya_ rasa tidak ada alasan _'Ian8ong dengan ada Standing Orders ini .
yang mana tiap2 sa~orang Anli Yang·:eerbor mat akan memikirkan 'dia itu di-sekat · mulut-nya.

"demand" dalam jadi "minta", :, 1441 9 DECEMBER.1959 1442 ini ltu~la)f · saya .. rasa, Tuan Speaker, dalaxn, ilial: saperti .

ini saya :membang kang .

.

@ngan keras atas .

pinda:an berken~:n deQgan.

Standiug Orders.

ini.

carry out his duty as the representative of the electorate, and that.

is the· thing which we have the intention .. of taking care of by this thing.

That is.
That is.

we: are not considering, when he speaks on behalf of his own community.

whether he is seditious, but we.

are more con cerned with in which he the way speaks in this Parliament.

,That.

is why I think we should accept.

as Members on the Government side,.

this proposed amendment.

~.

Qaji Aiahari bin Haji Ibiahim ~ob~.

·Pasu B8l'8t): Mr. Speaker, Sir, fi:om.

what I have heard from one of· the Members of the opposite side, that ' by ··inserting the .
proposed new clause 'to Standing Order 36. he said that'thi.!

!· Hoilse is deprived of freedom of speecti.

that we have no power in Dr. BUrhanuddin bin Mohd.

Noor this 'House to exercise democracy.

In fact, .. he has given only one reason or (Besot): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Tuan, gr<iurid, to.

that effect: that it is because persidangan2 kita re~ah berjalan.

de the C(?inmittee has decided not to ngan Undang2 Standmg Orders .yang allow.
"treasonable words, seditious 'sementara .clan memandangkan words, ''and words that are likely to kapada keadaan itu kita berasa kurang promote .feelings of ill-will" as.

defined dan kita berkehendakkan tambahan.

in sub-sections (a) (b) and· (c).

maka relah di-adakan Jawatan-Kuasa yang memikir'kan bagi keperchayaan Mr. ~peaker, Sir, ~ thm~.

if any pehak kita Dewan ini menggubalkan man with le~al expen~n~ is unable rang tambahan-nya, maka Jawatab to ~fine which word .
is tre~onable, Kuasa itu telah menyampaikan kapada seditious, · or _words "'.hic~ ~~e likely to · kita hari ini · chadangan2 bakal tam promote ~eelmgs of ill-~ill • I won~er bahan itu.

Maka mana yang baik relah how these words co~e mto the English di-terima, sekarang telah mula .kita thmk, Members _of bahathkan perkara yang bertentang lang~ge, So, I 'Parhai;nent, whether on the opposite relah pun .

di-bayangkan dua chara side· or on the ~overn~ent side, ~ fikiran yang bertentangan, saya suka they.
cannot decide .. which wor~ ~s menarek perhatian dalam perkara ini i:easonable, or seditt~us, then it.

is ia-lah rentangan dari .

pehak pembang nght tha~ we shoul~ give some ~ower kang.

tidak berkehendakkan tambahan t<?

a middle°:1an hke the Chai~man ia-itu supaya delete atau buangkan him~elf to _decide, so that.

ther~ will be chadangan Undang2 63 bahagian 10 no 111-:feel_mg o~ sometlung likely to tidak kita masok- promote ill-feelmg among ourse~ves.

kan .

.

.

.

.

.


Therefore, I think if the Committee on Standing Orders recommend that we ·should insert these words, it is reasonable that we should give power to· a:: middleman.

Mr. Speaker: 36 che~aian 10. itu, saya suka ' , .

.

.

. '

Another thing-I consider that if he says.


that when a Chinese, as a Mem ber of this House, fights on behalf of his own community, or a Malay Member himself fights on behalf of his.own community, I think it is right for him', to say something for the benefit of his own race; but we are not conside~g that when he fights .·for his own race that he· should use words that.
are, seditious or likely to promote ill-feeling; What we want to know is how ~:he tlses the .language, ·how he makes use of· the words, in order to .

Dr. Burhanuddin bin Mohd.

Noor: .. :.

yang di-chadangkan tadi, saya suka menarek perhatian di-sini supaya kita memandang balek kapada · sema ngat undang2 itu di-buat.

semangat undang2 itu di-buat ada•lah untok menjaga .

keselamatan dan kemajuan kita dan kita tahu bahawa undang2 itu di-buat daripada dua.

segi : undang2 penjajah dan undang2 merdeka.


sema ngat undang2 masa kita · ini ia-lah maseh lagi berbau penjajah dan kita baharu merdeka dan undang2 kita boleh di-katakan salinari bulat2 dari pada undang:i penjajah.

; itu-lah yang kita -pakai, sa-hinggakan · .bahasa-aya tidak dapat nienggunakan pun kita 1443 9 DECEMBER 1959 1444 babasa kita, terpaksa memakai undang2 bahasa· lnggeris lagi.
Jadi, semangat kita sekarang telah beraleh semangat merdeka, maka undang2 pun mesti·lah mempunyai undang2 semangat mer deka.

dan kita ketahui benar2 bahwa ra'ayat dan penganjor2 penderitaan kemerdekaan sa-lama di-bawah tanah jajahan ia-lah di-jalankan dengan kuat kuasa undang2 sedition, treason dan sa-bagai-nya undang2 yang di·sebutkan tadi.

Jadi sayai filcir dalam perkara ini kita harus-lah balek berfikir chara baharu, berfikir chara berseh, bCnar2 dapat di-rasakan dengan rasa kebang saan.
kita dapat rasa bahawa kita ini' telah mengaku Islam itu ugama rasmi negeri ini, dan saya maseh lagi berasa jalankan dalam chara yang kita meshuarat2 yang telah sudah ini maseh bCrbau chara penjajah atau bukan tulin keaslian kita.
Jadi kerana itu-lah bahawa undang2 untok mengelakkan daripada cheraian ka-10 tadi, dengan sebab kita semua sa-kali ada-lah men jadi wakil ra'ayat negeri ini dan kita semua t!lah bersumpah meletakkan ta'at setia kita yang tidak berbelah bagi lagi dengan sumpah masing2 kita t!lah berikrar dalam Parlimen ini.
Maka semangat undang2 yang di tambah sadikit dalam bahagian 10 daripada 36 itu tadi ia-lah semangat undang2 lama tidak perlu wujud lagi; itu ada-lah sa-bagai duri, bahawa kita sekarang ada-lah sedang berjuang lagi mengisi kemerdekaan kebangsaan kita dan mengisi chita2 ugama Islam sa bagai ugama rasmi negeri ini.
Jadi un dang2 ini nanti boleh menjadi satu duri atau satu halangan yang menyebabkan tert!kan atau terhalang dalam chara2 kita memberikan erti kebebasaan ber kata, dan saya perchaya dengan ada nya undang2 berbau penjajah yang saperti ini kita maseh tert!kan dengan chara undang2 treason, di-dalam un sedition yang dang2 termashhor zaman penjajah itu mem belanggu, membinchana, menderitakan dan merosakkan beberapa penganjor2 Asia dan Africa.
Jadi kalau kita bawa jiwa itu, kalau kita tidak mempunyai jiwa sendiri, apa erti-nya sumpah setia kita dan tidak kita amalkan erti treason dan ini, ta'at setia kita .

kapada negeri maka undang2 itu·lah nanti · miSngha· lang kita.

Dan saya percha ya.

d&lgan tidak ada undang2 itu.

bagaimana pengalaman petsidangan2 kita yang belum lagi di-tatnbah undang2 Standing Orders itu, bahawa perjalanan ~hu­ arat ada-lah berjalan dengan lichin; ini ada-Iah atas kebijaksanaan Tuan Yang di-Pertua kita.
Dan saya per cha.ya bahawa kita datang di~sini tiap2 sa-orang bertanggong-jawab dan hendak memelihara sa-benar2-nya pe rasaan dalam hati (conscience) kita supaya lahir rasa ·yang sa-benar2-nya mahu di-tumbohkan untok kebangsaan negeri ini dan mahu membela µntok mengembalikan erti ugama Islam itu ugama rasmi.

Dan saya perchaya kalau kita dengan ada-nya chara saperti semangat kebebasari, semangat mem bena bangsa, semangat mengaku moral.

mengaku ugama Islam sa-bagai ugama tinggi moral-nya.
rasmi yang maka kita perchaya bahawa kalau undang2 cberaian 10 itu tidak kita masokkan tidak-lah membuat gendala.

Saya rasa dengan kebijaksanaan dan kuasa yang sudah ada.

dalam undang2 sedia itu chukup memberi beberapa kebebasan dan dengan chara itu chukup-lah dan boleh-lah di·jalankan dengan lebeh lichin dan Iebeh bebas dan lebeh bijaksana, tidak bimbang itu dan ini.
Dengan ada-nya kuasa pada Tuan Yang di-Pertua mentadbir kan persidangan dengan kebijaksanaan dan pimpinan-nya bagaimana yang sudah2 berjatan dan kita berharap de lagi sa-makin ngan pengalaman-nya bertambah-lah lichin .. lanchar dan se mangat kita tidak di-rintang2 .

maka sa-makin t!rasa kebebasan untok me lahirkan rasa hasrat yang benar2 kita mew'akili ra'ayat yang telah melantek kita sa-kian (Tepok).

tentu Sitting suspended at 11.15 a.m.

Sitting resumed at.
Sitting resumed at.

11.45 a.m. · Mr. Lim Kean Siew (Dato Kamat): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise against the amendment (Applause).

Mr. Speaker.

Sir.

I was a member of the Standing Orders Committee, and l belieYe one representative of the P.M.I.P.

was also in the Standing Committee.

• 1445 9 DECEMBER 1959 1446 Wan Mwaplla bin Haji AH (Klllm taa Hilir): Mr. Speaker, Sir, for your information, I was not present at this particular meeting.

Mr. Speaker: (To Wan Mustapba).


He said that you were one of the members of the Committee.

· Mr. Lia Kean Siew: That is correct.

Sir, and he signed this Report; whether he was present or not, Sir.

he siped this Report, and it was emphasised, and it was clearly agreed, that there should be no minority Report On this, the reason being that Standing Orders are for the good of this House and ought to have unanimity.

And.
And.

Sir, before I talk about the conduct of this House, I wish to emphasise paragraph 2 of this Report, which I think some people have deliberately overlooked in order to turn this into a propaganda issue.

This is not a propaganda issue, it is not a Party issue, it is the Standing Orders for the House-for our own good conduct, for our own good, and, perhaps, for our own bad.
It says in paragraph 2 : "It ~as emphasized throughout all the discussions of the Committee that the first Standing Orders of the House must of necessity be of an experimental nature."

It is an experiment.

We agreed that it is experimental.

"It is necessary to see how they work, and to make amendments to them as and when these are thought necessary."

It was hoped that this House would adopt it and make amendments later on if nect;ssary.
~ Sir, in the first place, we must not confuse these Standing Orders with a violation of freedom of the right to speak under Article 66 of the Consti tution.

Article 66 of the Constitution prevents us from being charged and dealt with in the court.

No person shall be charged in court or tried in court for what he speaks in Parliament.

There fore, Sir, that we ourselves here submit ourselves volun tarily to discipline (Applause).

In every club .

.

.

.


is necessary it Dato' Onn bin Jaafar: Mr..,..Speaker, Sir, on a point of clarification-is he referring to Article 63 or to Article 66?

.

I Mr. Speaker: .66 !

Dato' Ona bin Jafar: Well, Sir~ ibe two are entirely different Articles !
Mr. Lim Kean Siew: In every club, in every political party, in every asso ciation, there is a committee and a chairman who has conduct of all meetings, and it is to this chairman and to this committee that we submit our selves voluntarily, freely, and with our own free will to discipline.

This is the light in which we should approach the Standing Orders.

Of course, there is the question of arbitrary and arbitrary detention.

but let us not con fuse the Standing Orders with the law of the land.
These orders, I repeat, are not laws affecting the general public.

arrest Standing Order 36, Sir, has three issues.

First of all, treason; next, sedi tion, and the third is prevention of discussion on communal issues.

I wish to make it clear that our Party's stand, as has been mentioned in the Standing Orders, is against communalism.

Com munalism has caused racial riots, has caused colonialism, has caused deaths.

We remember quite clearly the trouble in Penang.


We remember quite clearly the trouble in Pangkor Island, an4 we remember only the speeches made by certain political parties during elections: we remember statements such as that those who vOte for (what they call) "unbelievers will go to Hell," and "those who are non believers will be kicked to China;" we remember speeches which say that .

we of the Socialist Front are trying to crush culture, or crush civilization, or crush rights.
Such statements and racial inclinations ought to be held in check in Parliament during our debates.

Sir, let us look at paragraph (3) of this Standing Order, which says: too well, Sir.

likely "words which are to promote ill-will or hostility between feelings of different communities .

.

.

. "

What can be clearer than that?

We do not resent community expressions but words which are likely to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility.
We may, as you have so rightly pointed out, deal with issues which are communal, but we should not make use of those things to create destructive motives (ApplOuse), which may lead to the shedding of blood.

Sir.

we are in the first stage of our Merdeka, that is quite true, and, 1#7 9 DECEMBER 1959 1448 tlter~ore, our first stage is to build one natiQn ·with one people (Applause).
Do we stand for one nation and one people scflhat all will in time be equal under ~·1a'w, standing together shoulder to $h0rilder?

Or are we going to exploit, ftild exploit, and exploit communalism in· the fond hope that we might come in:to the Government to become repre 'sel,ita'tives of the people at the cost of hostility and ill-will and bloodshed of ou.r 'people, whom we are supposed to represent?

(Applause).
(Applause).

Do we have to come into Parliament over our peoples' headless bodies and with our noses floiving red with blood?

For any person who .is here to fight on national issues he d0es not need to fear sub-paragraph (3): of this Order, because he will him self realise that he is not here to create hostility or ill-will.

He is not here to fight on emotionalism, but for a logic and for mass interest.

Sir, "freedom" is a very difficult word.

What is freedom?
What is freedom?

Do we want freedom-as out Party Chairman, the H;o.nourable Member from Setapak has said---do we want the freedom of the j\ingle---do we· want freedom of the bealts-or do we want freedom of an ordered· society?

Because, Sir, c.ontrol that •·is compelled on people is quite different from control which we accept, control which we accept is voluntary discipline.
When we agree to discipline our~lves, and submit ourselves volun tarily to control, then that control is a control due to our own free will and comes from our own free will.

Absolute freedom to do whatever we like without consideration of society is no freedom at all.
There cannot be freedom if we have to fight all the time to prevent the destruction of lives; because, Sir, when we talk of freedom, we must know that 1t is with lives that we deal with, and unless we can be sure and secure and safe in our freedom, unless we are sure that· nobody in this House can furn round and threaten our lives, we cannot really have freedom though we might deelare it loudly enough-the freedom of the jungle is the freedom in fear.
Well, Sir, I hope that I can say this to any ·without causing annoyance ·body-I think that perhaps the party that is most non-cominunalist are the Party Ra'ayat and the P,arty Butoh (Laughter).

Sir,·there are certain people who are expert in sensational issues; They'··talk of liberty, they talk of lavatories, they talk about bathrooms, they talk of blood, they talk of insanity, Austra Indianisation-ariy lianisation '.

'ation" or any "ism" so long as it is sensational .

:.

.

.

.

.

.

· .


an:d· Mt~ i>.

R~ ~nivaSagam: On a point of order, Sir, can the Member impute improper motives to another Meml;>er of this House?

· Mr. Speaker: He is not imputing improper motives.

·Mr.

Lim .Kean Siew: Sir, I. was n.ot referring to any Member of this House.

I was speaking in general.

but if the cap fits, he can wear it.

(Laugh_ter).

· Sir, I know that .


there are many people both inside arid outside this House who are confusing the difference between· freedom and a freedom to be insane (Laughter).

Sir, in every country stretching right across the world, be it, as we would like to say, Communist, Capita~ist, Socialist, or Fascist, there is or there ought to be such a thing as freedom in the supreme ruling body of the Government.

And the supreme ruling body of the Government is-us.
And if we dare not give up comniu nalism wheri · the need here is to build up a nation, how can we hope that other people.

will forget communal issues.

And, Sir, one last wotd of warning to people who think that this is in fact an oppressive measure.

Suppose we have communal issues, who will suffer?

Where, in a section of a nation,.


a certain community is less in number than another community, the members of that smaller community will suffer; and in the reverse, if in another section · there are more in numbers of that community, then ·the other community will suffer.

We have seen, Sir, our Honourable friend from Ipoh condemning or attempting to Indonesian measures condemn the against what he calls the Chinese business people in the Indonesian rural· areas.
Sir, though that is a move actually between aliens and non-aliens, but if he wants to look at it as a 1449 9 DECEMBER 1959 1450 that we We must not forget communal issue, if he wishes to exploit it as a communal issue~ then I ask him to remember that the pain and sWfering has been caused because of racialism.

in Malaya are in a different context wjth other.

people.

Malaya is perhaps the only place .

in the world where all the races of the country are able to.
sit together in Parliament (Applause) and bring forward issues for the purpose of building our nation iri peace.

Do we want this to cease?

Do we want to stare at each other across the floor with hostility, or do we want to look at each other across the floor with one purpose-and' that is to buiid up one people in Malaya?

· Many people, including the Honour able Member from lpoh, have talked of copimunalism and the suffering of various peoples.

If that is · true.

then we should destroy.

it.


We should stop it, and the sooner we stop it, destroy it, .the better; the sooner that we forget all our different ethnic origins, the better it is; the sooner we can say we are the Malayan people, -that we are all equal under the law,· that we are all free under the law, the better it would be.

·That, Sir, I· believe is the only logic we need worry about.

The other things are words-words : "This is against freedom, this is against that".
And, Sir, I remember the Honourable Member from lpoh has in fact been accused of being a dictator in his Party.

No doubt he realises the need for dlscipline, even in his Party.

(Laughter).

Mr. D. R. Seenivasagam: I rise on a point of clarification, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to clarify to this House that the Honourable Member from Dato Kramat has not only been accused of being a dictator in his own party~ but also.

kicked out of his party-'almost.


Mr. Lim Kean Siew: I don't think I need answer that inaccuracy, because I am still a member of the National Executive of the Labour Party.

Sir, the fundamental point is the basfo idea of democracy, and any hos tility that may lead to any ·racial perse cution.

must be stopped-not outside this House, Sir-but in this House, which is the fountain of all our -laws (ApplllUse).

· '· · ·· .
· '· · ·· .

saya ia-lah hendak itu yang Dato' Ono biD'Jaafar: Tuan S~aker, pertania-nya, ~IifiD~ supaya di-fikirkan perkara ini .

: dari segi perkara yang berkaitan dengan Peratoran Dewan Ra'ayat ini.

··Dan bukan-nya satu perkara yang ~rbit daripada pehak Kerajaan a tau' :pun daripada pehak pembangkang, ·, saya menyebutkan demikian ini oleh kerana nampak-nya ada Ahli2 Yang mthor mat di-sabelah sentiasa bangun m~ngatakan · Kerajaan bend~ bagitu-bagini.
Nrkara Standing Order ini bukan perkara K~rajaan, yang sa benar-nya perkara Dewan Ra'ayat 'am-nya.

Saya bangun m!t\yo kong kapada usul yang di-chadarigkan oleh Ahli Yang Berhorinat dari Ipoh supaya di-hapuskan ·~gala ~tcha­ kapan di-dalam· Nratoran baharu 36.

I would like · to make '~n observation with regard to the Honour able Member for Dato Kramat.

Fpr many days we have ~en sitting .

in this House.

and we.

kno~ wh~t a great talker he IS.


He talks m this House and he talks .much more outside, (Laughter) and 11,ere I w:ould like .to that only , ·this this · House inform this.

.

very momip.g when .. discussing particular Standing Order ·he said to me, "Well, you know, I do not agree with it."
Here, I Mr. Lim Kean Siew: Sir, on a point of clarification, I said that I. wanted· to write a minority report, but it was agreed, for the sake of order in' the House, that we should all write· •one report, because it had to go beyond party likes and dislikes.

It was ·meant for o'ur own good conduct.

and that is why paragraph (2) was put in as it was agreed that it was of an experimental nature.

, Dato' Ono.

bin Jaafu: .

I am very glad that the.


Honourable Member· has confirmed what I· said-he did disagree · With this.

· · · · Mr. Lim Kean Siew: Not the whole part.

I stated that (c) was put in by- me when the others insisted on (a)·.

and (b).

Dato' Ono bin Jaafar: As a ·mattet ·of fact, he said having accepted (a).· and 14Sl 9 DECEMBER 1959 1452 (b) too was acoepted by other members of the Committee, then he injected (c) into the new Standing Order.
ia-itu berkaitan · ~ngulang balek usul yang di chadangkan oleh Ahli Yang mrhormat dari Ipoh itu, maka saya membantah di-atas chadangan Jawatan-Kuasa ini supaya di-masokkan Peratoran Baharu 36 itu, atas alasan yang telah di-beri oleh Ahli Yang mrhormat dari lpoh dengan sendiri Undang2 Perlenibagaan Fasal 63.

Fasal 63 ini memberi satu kebebasan yang ist!mewa kapada Ahli2 Dewan Ra'ayat ini pada segala perchakapan-nya di dalam De~an ini yang tidak boleh di" tarek-masok atau di-da'awa dalam Mahkamah.
Maka di-sini pehak yang membuat undang2 ini nyata-lah ber tujuan hendak memberi sa-penoh2 ke bebasan kapada tiapl sa-orang Ahli Meshuarat ini supaya bertutor kata dan berfikir bagaimana kehendaIC hati nya sendiri.

Sharat di-dalam Undang2 Perlembagaan ini.

saya minta kapada Dewan ini jangan permudahkan2, oleh kerana ini-lah satu sharat yang mem pertahankan hak tiap2 sa-orang Ahli dalam Dewan Ra'ayat ini bebas ber tutor kata dan berfikir.

sa-bagai wakil ra•ayat sendiri.


Tambahan pula, siapa kah daripada sa-orang Ahli Dewan ini yang sanggup hendak mensifatkan diri nya sa-bagai sa-orang yang boleh memberi hukum di-atas apa perkataan yang di-katakan seditious atau apa-kah yang di-katakan treasonable.
Kira-nya hendak gi-tegah Ahli2 Dewan Ra'ayat ini daripada bertutor kata dengan chukup ada halangan sa-orang Ahli Dewan Ra'ayat ini kcluar daripada Dewan ini menge luarkan perkataan2 yang seditiol!S dan treasonable, di-dalam meshuarat parti-nya sendiri atau pun di-mana2 tempat yang lain-tidak ada halangan satu pun.

Maka kira-nya itu, buat apa tidak ada halangan hendak dalam Dewan Ra'ayat ini kebebasan itu?
Kebebasan ini bagaimana saya selalu berkata ia lah satu perkara yang le.heh utama, lebeh besar daripada segala perkara yang lain; kemerdekaan sendiri ber ma'ana kebebasan dan dari itu ke bebasan kita sa-bagai Ahli2 wakil ra'ayat dalam Dewan Ra'ayat ini, jangan-lah bendak di-sekat dengan bebas-nya, di-halang apa-kah sama ada chara yang sa-macham ini, beri ke bebasan tiap2 sa-orang ooleh b«tutor kata dan · berfikir.
Kita ini konon-nya berjalan atau menjalankan satu chara pemerentah yang di-katakan menurut Parliamentary Democracy, maka biar jalankan Parliamentary lah Democracy itu, pertama sa-kali nicm beri kebebasan kapada tiap2 sa-orang Dewan Ra'ayat ini, bukan-nya hendak menyekat kebebasan itu bagaimana yang di-chadangkan di-dalam shor Jawatan-Kuasa ini.
kita ia-itu shor2 Sa-bagai penutup, sa-kali lagi saya suka mengingatkan ini bukan datang-nya daripada pehak Kerajaan tetapi ia-lah datang-nya dari pada pehak sa-buah Jawatan-Kuasa yang di-pileh oleh sa-buah Jawatan Kuasa yang lain yang Jawatan-Kuasa yang kedua itu sendiri telah di-pileh oleh Ahli2 Dewan Ra'ayat ini.

Dari itu apabila kita hendak menimbangkan perkara ini, fikir-lah daripada segi itu, bukan-nya daripada segi, saya pehak Kerajaan atau saya pehak pembang kang.
Malang-nya dengan sebab per dirian Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Dato Kramat pembangkang pehak sendiri membangkang antara sama ber dua (Ketawa) tetapi hal itu saya tidak hairankan, oleh kerana betapa hal per dirian Ahli Yang Nrhormat da:ri Dato Kramat kalau tidak m!mbela diri-nya dia sendiri yang sudah tersalah dalam perkara ini.
itu, £ache' Ramah bin A1ang (Kapar): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dalam perkara membinchangkan pindaan Peratoran ini, maka telah banyak-lah berbangkit kapada ¢rkataan2 tiap2 Ahli Yang Berhormat dalam rumah Yang mr hormat ini.

Saya suka menarek per hatian pada uchapan yang di-buat oleh Yang mrhonnat wakil dari ~ut.

yang pada mula2-nya tadi saya berpen dapat, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.
dalarn uchapan-nya itu tidak tentu, sa-kejap2 dia menyokong atas pindaan itu, sa kejap2 tidak menyokong atas pindaan itu, pada hal saya berpendapat, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, di-dalam pindaan undang2 ini ia-itu pada muka 17 wakil daripada Persatuan itu telah pun men itu.

dudoki dalam telah sama2 mempersetujui bagi pin daan 36 itu.

Jadi saya tidak tahu Jawatan-Kuasa 1453.

9 DECEMBER 1959 1454 .. pendirian Ahli Yang basaiinatta B&hormat itu t&hadap kapada parti nya .
sendiri, hanya yang kita dengar dia kata; dalam beberapa hari hersi dang ini rumah ini ada lagi berbau penjajah dan perkataan bau penjajah itu,.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, telah b&kali2 benar.

di-sebut oleh wakil itu mengata kan rU1llah ini berbau penjajah-lagi ada .. b&bau penjajah; macham mana bau-nya itu?

Apa-kah bau-nya?
Apa-kah bau-nya?

Jadi kita sa-bagai negeri yang muda, yang baharu Merdeka ini tentu-lah membuat Peratoran kita dari satu masa ka-satu masa untok mempersesuaikan dengan keadaan orang2 dalam Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ini sendiri.

Saya ber pendapat.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dalam pindaan 36 ini dia tidak pula menye butkan daripada mengatakan menahan Ahli2 Parlimen berchakap mengeluar kan perkataan kotor, chuma dia menga takan perkataan2 (words) yang sesuai dengan k~n orang Tanah Melayu.
Saya berpendapat, sudah-lah sa layak-nya undang2 itu bagi menyela matkan dan bagi memelihara nama baik rumah Yang Berhormat ini pada pCringkat yang akan datang, kerana sesuai benar-lah dengan orang2 yang dalam P&sekutuan Tanah Melayu ini memakai undang2 yang kita sebutkan dalam pindaan 36 ini.

~bab, saya ber pendapat kita di-Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ini ada-lah orang yang chukup lemah-lembut terkenal, mempunyai tutor kata bahasa yang chukup bijak dan chukup halus.
Maka itu-lah sebab kita masokkan perkara itu supaya jangan mengeluarkan per tidak sesuai dengan kataan2 yang keadaan orang Tanah Melayu, kita orang yang mempunyai kebudayaan yang luas; jadi tentu-lah saya berpen d~pat.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, perkataan ini memang boleh di-pakai juga.
Saya suka menguchapkan tahniah ka-atas pendirian sa-orang wakil Socialist dalam Jawatan-Kuasa itu telah mene gaskan bahawa dia ada-lah b&diri kapada pehak yang benar, walau pun dia pehak parti pembangkang tetapi dia tegak berdiri di-atas apa yang benar dalam p&kara undang2 ini.
Tuan Yang di-Pertua, wakil dari lpoh mengatakan, jangan-lah kita memikir kan membuat undang2 ini memikirkan orang-nya parti yang memerentah hari ini· dudok di-sabelah itu, kita pun tahu; · hati ini kita memerentah-Perikatan memeren tah~lain tahun belum tahu.

T!tapi membuat undang2 ini ada-lah, ~kali lagi saya katakan, untok mempers&uai kan keadaan orang Tanah M!layu.
Dalam Parlimen ini kita tidak · mahu perkataan2 dalam kempen Pilehan Raya yang kotor ia-itu di-keluarkan dalam ini, malahan hendak-lah di rumah padankan untok di-bawa ka-rumah Yang Berhormat ini, maka d!ngan bagitu sahaja kita nampak Ahli2 Yang Berhormat dalam Persekutuan Tanah M!layu ini ada-lah oiang2 yang bijak dan pandai; saya fikir, chukup-lah buat sementara.
The Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications (Dato' V. T~ Sam bantban): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I must say I was not unduly surprised when I heard the suggestion from the Honour able Member for lpoh that these.

words should be deleted ..

But then, when one looks at the political pattern in this country, the existence of various races and the stress to which the people are subjected-emotional stress and poli tical stress-it appears more obvious than ever.
that we within this House have got to see that we do· not exacer bate these feelings.

Yet, what does this clause say?

It merely says that "words which are likely to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility between different communities in the Federation" should not be used.

Does it mean conversely that it is desirable for us to use these words which are likely to promote ill will among the various races?

That I believe is the moot question.


Are we prepared in this House to utilise the freedom that is given by this House to arouse ill-will or hatred?

The answer is very clear.

When we look at the history of Asian nations in the recent past, we would find a pattern, what I would call a pattern of political behaviour.

in various countries.

We would find that after the imperialists left these countries.

local politicians found it very useful to divide and rule.
They found it very easy to divide and to utilise that division for the purpose of bringing them power based on the fact that they could go 1455 9 DECEMBER 1959 1456 to the people and enlarge the difference8 among the people-racial, communal and sectarian.

They could, by enlarging these differences, go up the political ladder.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I feel that this is riding, what I would like to call, on the waves of communalism.

It is very easy to be a communal chauvinist.


It is, extremely easy, particularly in the context where many races exist, where no .

one race can claim superiority in numbers over any other.

Therefore, it would be easy to go to any one race and say, "Look, the danger of submer-· sion is facing you."
For instance, the Chine8e and Indians can join together to throw out the Malays; or, the Chinese and Malays can join together to throw out the Indians; or, the Malays and Indians can join together to throw out the Chinese.

These are factors, which we have got to recognise.

The Honourable Member for Kuala Trengganu Selatan spoke on patliainen tary democracy and freedom, but I am afraid that he is permitting himself to be carried away by words.
Do we mean that we are prepared to utilise, having known the recent history of Asian countries, this right of parliamentary democracy and ·freedom to throw this country into turmoil?

'Have we not history to look back on as to what happened recently in Ceylon?

Do we not know that systematically, day after day.

month after month, the House in Ceylon was utilised by various com munal parties to inject systematically, communal passion?
Do we not know that they ignited by words week after week, month after month, till the whole country went up in flames?

Do we not know that liberty to speak in that House was a complete licence?

Who suffered?

'they were the women and ~hildren, the innocent, who suffered.

They were burnt.

there was pillage.

they were raped, they were murdered not the Members .of the House.

Dato'· Ono bin Jaafar: Mr. Speaker, on a point of clarification, would the H<mourable Minister say why Article 63.
(2) should be entrenched in this Constitution? '

Dato' V. T. Sambanthan: I am oon cerned With the.

Standing Orders and with.

the suggestions now made by the Committee.

Dato' Oun bin Jaafar: Will .the Honourable Minister answer .

my ques tion?

Dato' Suleiman: I will answer it Ja.ter on.

Dato' V. T. Sambanthan: However, let me proceed.


I said that if, for instance, in Ceylon where many races exist, you have the platform provided by the House, if l may reiterate what I have said, whereby certain Members within the House felt that politically it .

would be useful to inject political passion .

.

.

.

.

Mr •.

D. R. Seenivasagam: Mr. Spea ker.


on a point of order, the Honourable Minister allowed· to com" ment on the conduct of Members of Parliament of a friendly nation and to suggest that the democracy jn Ceylon is not what it should be?·.·· is Dato' V. T. Sambanthan: I am making no such suggestion.

I am merely saying what has.

happened.

There are official records ; to prove this.

I do not say it of Ceylon only.

I am referring to words.


words used before the division of India, within the Parliament in India itself .

: .

.. Mr. Speaker: Do not mention any country by name: · Dato' V. T~ Sambimthan: ·I must say that in all nations is it not the pattern, wherever many races exist.
for the House to have been used by some Members within that House to utilise the liberty given by that House, the safety given by that House, to go on systematically injecting , doses of co111munalism and doses ·or passfon which the ordinary man cannot resist?

Every time those words were said in the House they .

were repeated in the Press, and some sections of the Press obviously repeated them a great num ber of times more than others.

And as readers go on reading systentati-.


cally--'-so ·you see-the country would get burnt up bit by bit.

The question, therefore ·is, having known the recent histories in these countries, are · we the .

same path?

prepru;ed Are we within this House going to say.

that we have the right to use to follow ,1457 9 DECEMBER.

1959 1458 ~·wot.ds ·.which are.

likely to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility between dilfei;ent .. communities in the Federa tion''?

That · in fact is.
That · in fact is.

the moot ·question~ Do.

we want it or not?

I feel that .

right should never be:· given because it is absolute licence to create ill-will and hatred among the various races .

in.

this country.

I shall not ·pro ceed further.

I think that is enough.

(Applause~.

: .. .

Sitting • suspended at 12.20 o'clock.

f?.m.

· · · Sitting resumed at 2.30 p.m. (Mr. Spea](er in the Chair) •i: 1 EXEMPTED BUSINESS (Motion) ' ' .. Tun Abdul Razak: Mr. Speaker, Sir, lb~ to move, the provisions of .
That, notwithstanding this House shall not Standing Order 12, adjourn this day until after the conclusfon of ·the proceedings.

Oii the Report of the Standing Orders Committee.

Dato' Suleiman: Sir, I beg to second the, motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved, That, notwithstanding the provisions of 1itanding Order 12, this House shall not adjourn this day until after the conclusion of · the proceedings on the Report of the !

)tanding Orders Committee.


FIRST REPORT OF THE STAND ING ORDERS COMMITTEE (FIRST SESSION) Debate resumed on Amendment, That the words "subject to the deletion of the proposed amendment to Stand ing Order 36" be added at the end of the Question, "That the First Report of the Standing Orders Committee, tabled as Paper No.

DR. 2 of 1959, be adopted with effect from the end of this ·meeting".

· Amendment again proposed.

• .

.

j , Mr. Tan Pbock Kin (Tanjong): Mr. Speaker, Sir,.
I propose to move an .amendment under Standing Order -33.

·(cl) of: ;;the Standing· Orders~ For yQur guidance.

Sir.

moved by from Ipoh reads as follows: the amendment the · Honourable Member "That the· draft amendments to the Stand ing Orders be adopted subject to the deletion of the proposed amendment to Standing Order 36".

· · .

My prop0sed amendment will read as f ollciws : ·"That the words 'paragraphs (a) and (b)' be added after the word 'to' and before the words,.

'the .Proposed atnendment' " •..


So, Sir, my amended amendment will read as follows : "That the draft amendinents to the Stand ing Orders be adopted subject to the deletion of paragraphs (a) and (b) of the proposed amefldment to Standing Order 36".

· In doing so, Sir, I like to clarify our stand.

In our proposed amendment, we have deleted (a) and (b), namely "ti:easc>:nable .c words'~ and "seditious words" leaving (c) "words which :are likely to promote feelings of .. ill-will.
hostility between the different com munities in the Federation."

to why we believe It is our considered opinion, · inclu ding the considered.

opinion of · the Honourable Member for Dato' Kramat, that our opposition is mainly confined to (a) and (b).

In this regard, I wish to associate · myself with the remarks of the Honourable Members of the Opposition, I shall confine myself to explaining our stand on paragraph (c), as that .

para graph (c) should be incorporated in the Standing Orders.
It has been 1>9inted out .by Honourable Members, parti cularly the Honourable Member for lpoh:.

that .in accordance with .

the Constitution, Article 63 (2), this is one of the privileges of Parliament~we must point out that as far as Standing Orders are ~oncerned, the incorpora tion of paragraph (c) in the Standing Orders by no means removes such privileges.

The incorporation of para graph {c) merely means that we in this House are in .

agreement of· not using words which are likely to arouse hostility.
I, believe that the Alliance is in full agreement with this sentime~t.

I feel that the P.P.P., .

as a non comruunal organisation, too should be 1459 9 DECEMBER.

1959 1460 in the in ·tull agreement with this; while the P.M.l.P., believing Islamic religion, which makes no discrimina tion between people of various racial groups, should also believe in this.

It seems to me that this should be a matter of common agreement.
We are here asking the consent of this Ho~ to agree on a matter which we should all be agreed upon.

Tuan Haji Abdul Khalid bin Aw8111 Osman (Kota Star Utara): Sir, on a point of clarification-is the Honour able Member speaking on behalf of the P.l.M.P.

and the P.P.P-?

to Mr. Tu Phock Kin: Mr. Speaker, I am expressing my own opinion-I believe that that is quite clear.
The Alliance claimed to be non-communal, according its own statements wbether it is or is not, I don't know but I am saying that they profess to be non..communal.

Here we have the sort of amendment to which we should all be in agreement.

So, I see no reason why anyone of us should object.
If we are objecting to this particular Clause, we must have a very strong reason for doing so, and it is for any particular party or any particular per son to bring forward his view-point as to why he does not subscribe to this.

Looking at the history of political parties in this country, how they climbed ·the ladder of success, we realise, and I say it is a well-known fact that most political parties in the past have resor ted to communalism to gain power.
It is an open fact that some political parties have achieved the pinnacle of success by climbing the communal ladder.

It is not for me to mention names, but the prelude to this is very important.

If we are all in agreement with this particular clause, then we have the basis of creating a united nation, which I think, everyone of us cherishes, which will remove this great spectre-the spectre of communalism once and for all by common agreement, by common consent.
Once we have achieved this, it will follow that as far as this country is concerned, it will then become the responsibility of the Government legislate in power against communal organisations.
The to basis of communal ill-feelings ill the political arena are given rise to by communal political organisations, and the logical conclusion that any Govern ment will come to after acceptance of this Standing Order will be to legislate to provide for the banning of all communal political organisations.· By doing so, you remove the trouble right from the roots : jf there are no com.,.

munal organisations, there will be no communal sentiments.

Nobody will appeal for political support by commu nal means.
This, I submit, Sir.

is'a very important point.

That is why we in this House support this particular amend ment because starting as it does from the highest council of the land this idea of non-communalism will spread.

and we urge particularly the Government to give their support to this move of ours.

Let us forget about the past.

If we have made blund.ers in the past, if we have appealed to communal sentiments in the past.
as a means of achieving power, now that we have realised the futility, now that we have realised the ultimate outcome of such a role and the disaster that it will bring this.

country to, let us admit the blunder and let us proceed along a new path.

This is my appeal to the Alliance Government.

To other Members of the Opposition.

I would also like to appeal to them to agree not to disagree against making voilent communal appeals.
As far as (a) and (b) is concerned, we can say that the Opposition is united in this direction.

We can say sentiments that expressed earlier by Honourable Mem bers of the Opposition are shared by all of us.

It is on para (c) that I would like to appeal to Honourable Members of the Opposition to agree on this.
There is no question of liberty or freedom being infringed because the fundamental principle here is to agree to agree on what we believe to be really good for this country and for the con duct of this House.

And after agreeing on that, let us agree to give up that little liberty of expression on issues that are likely to arouse communal hatred.
If we view this in the correct perspec tive, if this whole House can agree to my amended motion, then I feel that we will be really paving the way towards the establishment of a genuine Malayan the 1461 9 DECEMBER 1959 l~ nation, and with this I would like to appeal to support the amendment.

to Honourable Members Mr. Uu Yoong Peng (Rawana): Mr. Speaker, Sir.

I second the amendment.

My reason being that the structure of this House is such that the Opposition.

by its very nature.
by its very nature.

is an institution pai~I emphasise the word "paid" to subvert the status quo, and I want to know who it is for us to judge whether a speech made in this House is treasonable or seditious in its nature.
Let me give an example, Suppose I aJD to say at this moment that all those Honourable Members on the other side who agree with the idea of Socialism are to walk over now immediately •.. and that by this very stroke a new Govern ment is formed-is this treason 1 Is this seditious 1 So, for this reason, I think that we cannot limit the extent of words that are to be used by Members in this House.

Amendment proposed.
Amendment proposed.

Mr. K. Karam Singh (Danumsara): Mr. Speaker, Sir, this motion by the Government regarding the addition of the words "treasonable words .

.

.

. "

J Dato' Saleiman: Sir.

on a point of information, I must say that this is not a motion by the Government.

I am a member of a Committee of this House.

Mr. Speaker.

It is a motion to adopt the Cominittee's Report.

Mr •.

V. David (Banpar): Normally the Government introduces any deci sion of the Committee to the House.

Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker.

This is a Report of the Committee on Standing Orders.

Mr. K. Karam Singh: Mr. Speaker, Sir, this amendment to the Standing Orders as recommended by the Com mittee is an attack on the privileges that our Constitution guarantees us.

In view of that attack-I must say it has come from the Alliance Members we· rally to repel that attack on the Constitution of the Federation of Malaya.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we do not want laws of a nature akin to the Emergency Regulations into the Chair , ·of to this House and installed to be regrettable strangle tbe freedom of expression in that this House.

It is although the Honourable the Minist.er of Works referred to the third clause.
that is, "words which are likely· to pro., mote feelings of ill-will or hostility between different communities in the Federation", he did not in a single word defend clauses (a) and (b) and he could not defend them, because.

the right is against him in the case of in the serting Standing Orders of this House.

Sir, there in Malaya already (Laughter).


Those who laugh show that they are trying to hide the facts, and we do not want this supreme body of our nation to be polluted by the spirit, by the under current of dictatorship, which is a remnant of the Colonial C)ra and which the .

Alliance is perpetuating .

in our country.

is enough of dictatorship two clauses these into Mr. Speaker: I must remind you that this is a report of the Committee and not of the Government.
The· pro· posal was made by the Committee.

Mr. K. Karam Singh: Sir, we.

are against communalism.

I endorse what the Honourable Member for Tanjong said.

I. endorse his very reasonable expression of our stand- on communa lism.

We do not want to attack other organisations, but we want to mako it clear that we do not want our country to be tom by communal strifes.

We have previous examples-in Pakistan and India~ where a country ·was tom on a communal issue.
Sir, I do not think that anyone in this House would want to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility ·between difterent communities in the Federation.

They can speak for what they represent, but there should not be a promotion of ill-will or hosti lity between the dillerent communities.
So we hope that all Parties would· a8f.CC that (a) and (b) be rejected and (c) be retained-not that we cannot voice expressions but that we should not do it to excite ill-will or hostility between different communities in our country.
Mr. D. R. Seenlvmpm: Mr. Spea ker, Sir, the proposed amendment by the Honourable Member for Tanjong is an amendment to my amendment 1~3· 9 -DECEMBER 1959 t464 - · _ , · · · · h' k fr seriously, be debated and'thete are a few words I would like the therefore, -·Mr: - Speaker, Sir, to ttaY.
; :1 oppose the proposed amend- · Honourable Member for Tanjong's rnetir by the Honourable Member ·for statement that he speaks for his Party I ~m a bit puzzled-is not .·understood Tanjong fot a number of good :reasons, I think.

Now _the Honourable· Member by._ me, as I do not ki:low 'what stap.d says· with regard to paragraph (c) - 9f th~y Uike.

the propo.sed original amen~nt to Mr. Speaker, Sir, with regfil.d fu the the Standmg Orders.

that he IS sure Honourable the Minister of: Works, J w~.
_w~ come to this ~ouse nobody have this to say, because it is relevant in -considering this amendment: .it is w6uld- -like communal.

issues to be the usual practice of the Alliance side debated thoroughly.

Sir, we do _not come here to have a State show, we always .to hold up the ·bogey of riot, do not come.

here to laugh and_ go bloodshed and communal disturbances, ~opie~ If I raise a matt~.

even though but I ask the Honourable Minister; to It.
1_s communal, I want It to be d~a!e<l think back as to what party he comes from_.;.

;,_a communal organisation Let bI~~rly and thoroughly, and a dects1on arnved at.

And · h I know _that any om w at relpeetable political organisation, when those who masquerade t m it brings a matter -- here.

wants the party they come first -before- they talk.

matter -- to Sir,' on the remarks m~e _by the thoroughly and bitterly, if necessary.
Honourable Member for Dato' Kramat, I .have this to say: any amendment That -is the purpose of Parliament, suggested by his organisation cannot be otherwise there is no purpose.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Hon,o~ble accepted b~ us for this ~ood reason Member for Tanjong.

when suggesting that we ~heye that at.

this stage of the this further amendment says "we take democratic life of this country .

there the sµmd": I am puzzled, for the firSt are.

a number of_ communal.


1ss~es time I am puzzled, and I do not under- which have to be s~lve<l.

_ You caD;Dot stand what stand the Socialist Front sqlve ·- them by closing your eyes .

to has.

The-Honourable Member for Dato them.

~ou.solve.

a pro~lem by speaking Kramat says that he fully supports the abo~t _ 1t _ 10 .t~Is Leg.isl~ture.

and by proposed amendment as it stands, _and get~n~ a dec1S1on on 1t 10- this House.

he gets the cheers from the Alliance This is the .


place where _ you solve communal differences.

Whatever you Bench _ .

may Wish-I wish there is no· commu- Mr~' Lbn Kean Siew: Sir, on a point nal issue in this Housec--;the fact is of -cl~ifi~tion, I said that I op~ there, staring you right in _the face : his amendment and I want to make it communal issues are present and will qui.te _clear that l do not stand on the have' to be s0lved·.

You canriot get away from that fact.


If we face facts, we will same · stand as he does.

Mr.· _ :D. - R. Seenivasapm;.

The have to raise.

c<;>mmun~l iss~es in this Honourable Member for Dato Kramat House, and -it ·~ the mtenn_on of the has said that.

he opposed my.

amend- Peoples Progressive Party of Malaya to ment.

Any reasonable and sensible ~~_so.


Honoqrable Member who understands the statement ·of the Australianisation, Malayanis!,ltion, in English would have come -to conclusion _ that he would have -to sanity and _so on, I have _tl)is to say : support' the proposed amendments to ~ is quite irrelevant to the am~mdment the Standing Orders; as he was a Com- proposed to Standing Order· 36 and I mittee member.
Sir, there is a shocking do not think people should be jeal9us if- somebody were to strike ' the head the Honourable expo.sure made by Member for Kuala Trengganu Selatan, - _ · li~es _in the papers.
who said that the Honourable Member " ' Mr. V. David: Mr. Speaker, -Sir,·we for Dato' Kramat said that he dis- are·proud to say-that tl_Hs Party which agreed with this outside the Cham.bet:- and .. he Should have come _ h~ amr 1, r~present has -been a non-communal shol.Jld liave· the courage to say that he one all through, -and we are proud that : the Socialist Ftont ·has ·not lost disagteed with it.

.

: ·with regard to - - ' ' ' · · · _ _ " .


· -- 1465 9 DECEMBER 1959 1466 its identity· as a non-communal orga nisation.

Sir, th~ :Honourable the Member for ·Kuala Ttengganu Selatan once claimed to be non-communal and walked out Qf; U.M.N.O.

I can remember· the dayi-llth October, 1951~t the Hotel Majestic when he spoke at length on non,communalism'.

I am surprised and shoclced to see that' a man of his calibre: W:.day opposing a motion w:tµch i~ going to prevent communalism in this House.
I, for one, all though as' 'a Socialist Member have been preaching non-communalism; not only through the papers but ·also at the polls.

We in the Socialist Front believe in our outlook and association in non~~mmunalism.

... Sir, I do n~t agree for one moment to having organisa tions like the U.M.N.O., M.C.A.

and M.l.C.

which are communal--nobody can 'deny this fact.

·As far as nop.
·As far as nop.

communal matters are concerned the Socialist Front has inore say than the Alliance, because they represent ·com munal organisations.

Mr. Speaker; Sir.

l lllllSti.

remind the House that the Workers' Movement in this country is the·· vanguard of the Socialist Move ment.

Mi.'.

S~er: Is that relevant to the amendment amendment?

the (LaU,ghter).

Do not make irrelevant rem~ks.

Will you confine yourself to the amendment?

to ~.

V. David: The capitalists in any part.


of the 'world would enco\irage anc;l· ,support, communal organisatiotj_s for; the· very reason that.

they coUld e:icploit the workers by dividing the~ on communal issues.

I have seen in the division between · the America whites 'a1nd the negtoes, and in· Ceylon the division .

between the Singhalese and the .Tamils.

This state of affairs cannot be.

allowed to arise in Malaya.

The.

workers in Malaya should unite :as one }>~dy.


Therefore, Sir, I believe that the · Sddalist Front is justified ·in supporting section or clause (c) and opposing clauses (a) and (b).

As far as (a) and (b) ,are concerned, with due respect to die Chair, we are afraid: of the way tlley may be ·interpreted.
· I'f the Chair thinks that an issue which is·· brought up here · regardin~ the 'racial, Etriergency Regulations treasonable or seditious and · rule out of order, then we ·would be deprived from the privilege of ventilating our views for which we have been ·serit to this· House.

is Mr. ·Speaker, Sir, I must remind this House that the Socialist ·Front is not bound .. to·associate with the feelings of other Opposition Members, or even the Alliance.

If we think that the stand which we are taking on .
any issue raised here is in line .

with our policy, then we will keep up to i.t As far as this matter is concerned, ·we have taken a stand to oppose clauses (a).

and (b) and to support; (c).

A~ such we will go to any extent to defend cla~ (c), and we are prepared to deb~te it, .

WiUr Mustapha bin ·· Haji Ali: Mr. Speaker, Sir, •OD a point of clarifica• tion.

The present speaker when refer ring to "we", I take it that he means the Socialist Front, as he is a repre sentative of .. ihe 'Socialist Front.
lf my m~niory is right, I remember a: Mem ber of the Socialist Front saying that the Socialist Front did not object to (a) and (b)-he agreed these should be added, but the latest speaker said that these · should be deleted.

, that Dato' Suleiman:· Mr. Speaker; .. Sir, on a point of information dealing with the ·Honourable Member for Kelantan Hilir, i ap:i wondering what his· stand is too.

· ·· Mr. V. David: Mr.

Speaker., Sir, I think the Honourable Member.a· are confused· over this.
We have clearly stated that we are against (c) and not (a) and (b) (Laughter).

· .

Our previous speakers have empha sised that we are.

against "(a) treason able words" and "(b) seditious words".

but we support "(c) words which are likely .

to promote feelings of ill-will or hdstility between different commu nities in the Federation".

We· do not want .
We· do not want .

:.issues do ' be debated in ·this House .. which will create· · communal hostility: · · 1461 9 DECEMBER 1959 1468 ~ Speaker, Sir, according to the Speech · of His Highness which was 4ebated recently, it has·been·stated that we are here to create a united Malayan nation.

·I think that even the Alliance to create a united cannot .

claim Male}'ian nation, because they are still living and playing on commu nalism.

Some Alliance Members.


during the elections, go out to the Chiitese areas and say .

.

~ .

that a Chine5e should vote a Chinese .

.

.

.

Mr. Spe$er: Is that relevant?· Mr. V. David: Mr. Speaker, Sit, I was forced to say this because· the Honourable Minister of Works, Posts spoke at and .

Telecommunications I say length on non-communalism.

that he bas no right to speak on non communalism as he represents, or be is present here as a representative of a communal body.

(Interruption).

Mr. Speaker.


Sir, I will not be deterred by booing.

I have come across thousands of booing (Laughter) and I will continue vigorously (Laughter).

Mr. Speaker: Order, order!

Mr. V. David: Mr. Speaker, Sir •.

I will not be deterred by booing from the Government Bench.

It is nothing new to me.

Mr. Speaker: You can continue, but confine yourself to the amench:nent to the amendment only.

Do not go beyond that!

· then I Ml'.


V. David: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if the workers' organisations and the workers themselves are going to be united as one, think non communal issues should not be allowed to be discussed in this House.

We are here as representatives of certain consti tuencies and we may be from difterent races, but we do not claim that we represent a particular race this House.

We represent certain .


consti tuencies and as such we will do our best to safeguard our electorates irrespective of race, colour or creed.

in Date>' Suleiman: That was what I said just now.

Mr. V. David: Thank you.

The Hono\ll'able Minister has no right to say that.

because he is a representative of U.M.N.O., a communal organi#tion in this country.

(Interruption).

Mr. Speaker.

Order, order!

· Dato' Slllebna: I do not tliink that the Honourable Member has got a ·right to speak like that.
because I did say that when I introduced the speech in Malay.

Mr. V. David: I challenge the Alli ance Government to deny the fact Uult they· represent communal orgamsa~orts.

Mr. Speaker: Confine yourself to the is not .

relevant.

amendment.

This (Laughter).

Mr. V. David: Yes, Sir.

I can say is a non that the Socialist Front communal organisation.

Mr. Speaker: That is not ·relevant too.

.

Mr. V. David: I am foreed to reply because the Honourable Minister inter~ rupted me.
Mr. Speaken Will you confine your self to the amendment to the amend- ment?

· Mr. V. David: Yes, Sir.

Sir, when we come into this House we respect the Chair, but while respecting the Chair we are not prepared to give arbitrary powers to the Chair which adversely aftect Members of this House who are iri the Opposition.

We will at least have to preserve and protect ourselves in respect of.

the liberty ot speaking.


If that is deprived in this House, I do not think then it will be possible for us to ventliate our views.

The freedom of expression has been curbed in ·this country, as the Emergency Regulations do not allow freedom of expression and thought.

We do not want this House to limit speeches.

Dato' Sulebnan: On a. point of information, hOw can you bring up the Emergency Regulations on this matter of amendments to the Standing Orders?

Mr. V. David: Mr. Speaker,.

Sir.


if the Honourable Minister of Works could refer to India why cannot I refer to in the Emergency Regulations.

Malaya?

Mr. Speaker: I must warn you that we· are now debating oq.

the amend ment to the amendment proposed by 1469 9 DECEMBER 1959 1470 the HOnourable- Mr. Seenivasagam.

Will you confine yourself to that only?

Mr. V. Da-rid: Sir, the Parliament here.


i,i this country: is the · highest Legislature of the State and as such, if in this House we are not going to be given freedom and: if we are not going to· ·be protected, then I do not think that we will be protected anywhere else.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is the only place where· we can debate and argue on issues concerning thousands of people of Ma,laya.
We are not on the Govern• i;nent 9ench to-day; we are in the Opposition; and we do not want <>ur views to be sabotaged: Dato' Suleiman: Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a point of information-we sit here as Ministers but we have got no special privileges at all.

Can the Honourable Member point out anywhere in the S~ing Orders where Ministers are accorded special privileges?

Mr. Speaker: We are not considering that point here.
Mr. V: Daftd: I think the Honour able· Minister will realise it when he comes over here and we go over there.

Mr. Speaker: Order, order!

I must Mr. V. David: remind Honourable Members on the Oovem mept 1'ench that they are not there permal1ently.

One day they will have to cross over here.

Sir, as regards treason able words and seditious words.
there are laws in this country, outside this Chamber, which punish any action of a treasonable nature or words which are seditious-such offences are punish able according to the law.

However, at the same time in this House there are many things which we will have to criticise when necessary.

Any Party has a right to overthrow the Government through constitutional means.
We will strive to overthrow the Government through constitutional means which this sacred document (the Constitution of the Federation of Malaya) has provided for.

Dato' Suleiman: Sir, on a point of information, I that we are lx;:lieve debating the amendment to the amend ment .

to the Report on the Standing Orders made by a Committee appointed by this House.

I do not see how can the· GOvernment, or the Alliance> c0me into this.
It just happens that I am the unfortunate victim who has to introduce this motion.

(Laughter).

Mr. Speuer: Honourable Mem~ we are now .•.. Mr. V. David: Sir, the Government Bench.

the majority in this House : .... Mr. Speaker: I must warn you that when I speak you must sit down.

You must not go beyond the sub}ect matter before the House.
The subject matter before the House is an amendment proposed .by one of the Honourable Members to· the amendment propose4 by the Honourable Mr. D. R. seeni vasagam-th~t is to say, d~lete (a) and (b) and retam (c)-and you are only allowed to speak to that extent.

DO 'not go beyond that.

Mr~ V~ David: Thank you.

Sir.

I did not have any original intention to speak on certain matters which I have done now.

but I was forced to speak by the rem.arks of certain Honourable Mem bers of this House.
· Mr. Speaker: You better stop that.

Mr. V. David: Yes, Sir.

In view of what I have said, I believe the majority party in this House will at least offer the freedom of speech to us and.

not curtail or deprive us of that fun® mental right, Thank you.

:f.nche' Ibrahim bin Abdul Ru••• (Sebirang Tenph): Tuan Yang di Pertua, saya menentang di-atas Qgala chadangan2 untok pindaan2 di-atas, pin daan.

Nampak-nya, Tuan Yang di Pertua.

beberapa hari kita telah b& meshuarat di-sini.


puak2 pembangkang menganggap Dewan ini sa•bagai arena di-dalam State, jadi kami ini matadors.. Selalu yang saya ingat pehak pembang kang itu tandok.

Jadi biar-lab kita bangkang di·atas bangkangan2 yang sesuai dan menepati.
Tuan Yang di Pertua, saya rasa puak pembangkang itu-Ahli2 Yang Berhormat di-sab!lah sana hanya bendak jadi Press Publicity sahaja kerana, Tuan Yang di-Pertua., .. Mr. Speaker: Kita ini di•bawah perkara meminda atas pindaan, janpn lah keluar daripada perkara itu.

\ · · 1471 9 DECEMBER 1959 1472 , :lache' Ibnhim bin Abdul Rahman: Standing '.

Orders nombor 36, Tuan "¥ailg · di-Pertua, saya bersetuju kalau tidak ada Press Man di-dalam Dewan ini~ Standing Orders 36 ini patut di tdlak · sa-mula.
Tuan Yang di-Pertua:.

kita mesti ingat ia-itu Press Man ber a®.. di-sini tentu-lah segala chakap2 dari~a satu2 patah perchakapan dalam Dewan· ini akan di-hebohkan dalam surat khabar besok.

· llato' Ono bin J'aafar: Tuan Penge tusi, saya bantah perchakapan-nya itu.

Mr. Speaker: I must rule you out.

:£ache' Ibrahim bin Abdul Rabman: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya terbacha ~alam · bUku2 mengatakan-Napoleon $Cndiri pun kata ·~1 · .fear three news QaP!ffS more than a thousand'bayonets".
Jaili, sebab itu untok inenjaga kebe basan Ahli2 Yang Berhormat ·Dewan Ra'ayat ini dan untok menjagakan orang2: yang di-luar Dewan .

ini maka dengan sebab itu-lah A. dan B. itu di mast>kkan di-dalam•nya.

Kita perchaya kalau sa-kira-nya Ahli2 Yang Berhor mat daripada Legal profession itu ta' tahu ma'ana "Treasonable words dan Seditious' words" saya ingat, · ini me mal}lk:an.

Mr. V. David: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Hcinourable Member is imputing im proper motives 10 other Members of the· House, .
Mr. Speaker: Awak tidak boleh kata bagitu; dia di-sini mempunyai fikiran.

Ta'kan sa-orang Lawyer itu ta' tahukan ma'ana•nya.

.

W~ Mustapha bin Haji Ali: !

'am pr~oo to give a definitfon on.

that, Siz:> ·Mi'.

Speaker: That is all right.

Awak (to itnche' Ibrahim) jaga sadikit chakap!

(K~tawa).

'bithe' Ibrahim bin Abdul Rahman: Tuaq Yang di-Pertua.
saya rasa hairan juga> berkenaan dengan puak2 pem bangkang umum-nya kalau-lah Trea sonable words dan Seditious words inl konon-nya tidak ada freedom dan tidak ada democracy.

Tctapi, perkata an.·.freedom dan democracy ini saya ingat, "It means so many things~ so many people."

Saya ingat, Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Trengganu ~Iatan freedom itu berlainan dengan freedom Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Ipoh.

1adi, saya bangkang, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, di-atas segala pindaan di-atas cbadangan ini.
Wan M'ustapha bin Baji Ali:: Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have been sitting here for quite a number of liours and I must admit that I have got sick of it .. :puring the debate, Sir, I was attacked that as I was a member of this Committee, I should not take any objection ·to the Standing Orders.

But the fact that the Report on these Standing Orders· was signed-I was made to· sign it.

during the first .Parliamentary session....,-does n0t mean.

tQ.at everybody.

in the ·Com- .

mittee .

· .

· .


· ·· 'Dato' Suleiman: Sir, can an Honour able Member who has signed · the Report; now come here and say some thing else?

· Has he signed something which he does not ~now?

.

(lnten:up tions.)

Wan Mustapha bin Haji AU: Sir, if you refer t() page .14, you .will see the Note regarding .

Standing Order., 7..


It says- "Enche' ·wan Mustapha requested that it be ,recorded that while he -agreed to such a motion· being ma~e without notice, he con sidered that the motion should be debated."

I was the only one who opposed that Mr~ ·Speaker: We are now· dealing with Standing Order 36, and we have an amendment to the amendment.

.

.,.

.

: .

Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali:.


With due respect to the Honourable Minister, the mere fact that I was one of the members of the Committee does not mean that I have agreed to everything.

If you refer to page 14, Sir, you would.

see that I did not agree to everything.

Dato' Suleiman: What I said just now was that we were debating on the amendment to an amendment to the Standing Orders.

At the moment, the debate is on Standing Order 36 (10).
Can the Honourable Member now say that he is objectng to if and he has not signed it?

That is what I am obj~ng t~ Mr. Speaker: It is quite clear.

I think everybody knows that he has signed it.

. "

1473 9 DECEMBER 1959 1474 Wan Mustapba ·bin.llaji Ali: But I was absent; ' Mt:.

Speaker:.

It does· not .matter.

Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: Well, Mr. Speaker: Now.

what do you want tO say about this amendment .

to the amendment?

That is what I am concerned with.

(Laughter).


Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: First, I will confine to' ·the amendment to that amendment.

T would say that it is dangerous ·to have (c) added, because it 8ays "words which ate likely to pro mote· feelings of ill-will or hostility between different communities ·in the Federation".

Now, who is going to say what sort of words are in this cate gory-who is going to judge that?

In other words,.

you are muzzling the mouths of Honourable Members of Parliament.
~' Suleiman: Mr. Spea~er, Sir, the Hopoorable Member says "you are m~ing".

May I know to whom does the Honourable Member refer by "you"?

Mr. Speaker: It is understood that woon this provision is adopted-the House.

Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: If this amendment is accepted, a Member will have a certain amount of fear in speak ing.

I have gone through the Constitu tional Law of England and nothing was stated · : · .

.

Dato' Suleiman: I will have some thing to say on that afterwards.
· · Wan Mustapha bin HajL Ali: Ac tually.

Sir, there is no restriction in Parliament to speak.

For instance, here it says- .

"In the House of Commons ·strict rules are.

laid down for the maintenance of order in debate and it i~ open to arty .Member to call· attention to one of the5e rules and it is the ·duty of the Chair to enforce these regulations."

What, I am afraid is that if this section is to be · added, we will be giving · dis cretionary power to the Speaker-with due respect, Sir, I do not.
mean you .

personally .

.

Mr. Speaker: 'Never mind.

I may not be 'long here.

(Laughter.)

· Wan Mustapha bin Baji Alb I ~an.

it is so very difficult to define the wotds laid down here under this sectfon.

I have gone into this matter four tir five titnes arid I ~an find nothin~ ~to stbp: a person speaking under: (c)-.-10 fact, Sir, you cannot speak only against' the Sovereign or the King.

:/ · Mr. Speaker: That means you ·~e opposing the amendment to the a~d­ ment.
Wan Mustaph._ bin Haji Ali: .lam opposing all the amendments.

(f.:,aµ,gh- ter.)

· · Mr. Speaker: I must warn .

you that the House is only dealing with the amendment to the amendtnent.

Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: Even that one I am opposing it It 1s a, priv.ilege to speak openly in· Pa:i'lia ment.

If we introduce all these snags, then it is no use having a Parliament and we might as well close the .

door.

I .quote again, Sir, from page 1047 ''Words spoken in Parliament by a: Mem ber .

of.
of.

Parliament ca~not be the subj~ of an md1ctment .

.

.

.

; .

By including this (c): then yo~· are curtailing .

.

• .

.

· Dato' Suleiman: Sir, .

.

.

.

.

.

· Mr. Speaker: You will have ~~ery chance to talk afteJ,Wards.

(Laugh(er) .. ».

'Dato' Suleiman: But he keeps· on addressing me, Sir, (Laughter) and,:he says I am curtailing.

.

Wan Mustapha bin Baji Ali: _Mi~n I say "you", I mean the whole House.

(f.,aughter).

·.Mr.

Speaker: Order;order!

Dato; o.lli:.On a poillt of.order •.. Sir.


It did seem .

that it .was an argument between.

the .

Ho~ourable Minister and the Honourable .Member on this sicfe.

Mr. Speaker:·Ibave warned Honour• able Members·.· not · to interrupt any other· Member ·speaking except on\ two points-__,,h a point of order br on a point of clarification or information.

On'.

points of clarification or info~­ tion; the8e should not be repeated ;too many times, -because everybody ~ have a· chance to ·speak.
Please allow 1475: 9 DECEMBER 1959 1476 a Member to speak, do not interrupt until he has finished his speech.

.,_,,Suleiman: May I say just one word in explanation-I am trying to find out what the Honourable Member for Kelantan Hilir wants me to do.

I do not want him to address me or to argue with me.

Mr. Speaker: He is not arguing with you.

Wu Mustapha bin Baji Ali: What worries me, Mr. Speaker, Sir, is this (c).

It is better to delete it altogether and have the original one.

When you are elected.


you are an Honourable Member and you must speak your mind.

Probably if I may be allowed to sj>eak again the Honourable Member for Ipoh.

I will do so.

in support of Mr. S. P. Seenivuagam (Meng• JembU): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to speak on this amendment.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, ·I rise to oppose the proposed amendment to the amendment because I feel that · all the three should go out.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I feel it is the duty of everybody, who has Parlia mentary democracy at heart.
to con demn ·this measure as a perpetration of an outrage on Parliamentary demo cracy-and "outrage" is a mild word to use.

What is the purpose of the Standing Rules and Orders?

The pur pose of the Standing Rules and Orders is tp regulate the procedure of the Hd\Jse, to maintain the dignity of the House, and to give to Mr. Speaker such powers as are desirable.

To state so expressly is not an addition to the Standing Rules and Orders.
The S~er l1as an inherent power to maintain the order in the House and to see that Members do not abuse their privilege even without this pro vision against treason, sedition and so on.

If Mr. Speaker thinks that a Mem ber' has .gone too far-say, if I stand here and call upon Honourable Mem bers to march to a certain place to stage a demonstration-he has the inht:rent power to stop rile immedia tely.

Those are matters which Mr. Speaker can control in his discretion.
to But wbat will happen if the prop<>Sed the Standing draft amendments Orders are acc.epted?

It will be nothing short of a complete muzzling of the Opp<>sition in respect of certain issues.

Nobody attempts to deny it; in fact, the tenor of the speeches from the Go'Verntnent :Benches and from one or two Members sitting right opposite me shows that their desire is to put a talk about complete halt communal issues.

Is that desirable?

What is the position in this country?


It has been admitted and it has been emphasised more than once from the Government Benches that this country there are is a multi-racial country : Malays, there are Chinese, there are Indians .

.

.

to any Mr. Lim Kean Siew: On a point of order, Sir.

I hate to interrupt my friends, especially from the Bar.

who are usually supposed to know what talking about-but if he they are wishes to rise to oppose a motion, he terms of .. the must understand the motion.
The terms of the motion are not that no communal issues shall 'be discussed but that no communal issues shall be allowed that.

will promote or give rise to ill-will and hatred.

Our amendment is to prevent hostile situa tions, not to prevent any discussion at all.

Mr. S. P. Seenivaugam: Mr. Speaker, Sir.


I suggest before the from Dato Honourable Member Kramat advises others, he should advise himself by reading paragraph (c): "words which are likely to promote feelings ill-will or hostility between different of communities in the Federation."

· That is the wording of (c), and not what the Honourable Member just stood up and told the House.

We are now concerned with the amendment to the amendment, which suggests that we exclude (a) and (b) but retain (c) ..
I oppose the amendment because it is (c) must be my expunged, must never find its way into the Standing Orders of any democratic Parliament.

firm belief that Mr. Speaker, to the remember is that there is no ban on communal political .

parties this country.

There is no ban on communal thing in · first 1477 9 DECEMBER .1959 1478 political parties ·being registered as such.· There is no ban on communal political parties putting .

up candidates for election.

Obviously.


when a com· munal party puts up candidates.

it fights on communal issues.

It wins the votes of hundreds of .

tho~ds .

of people on certain communal issues.

Its representatives come .

into Parliament, and ·what do the Members on the oppqsite side say: "You have been elected beeause you promised to fight for .

certain .

things, .but now you have step~ into this House, we pass Standing Orders, the~eby your mouth is shut!"
Is that the parliamentary demo cracy established by our Constitution?

Mr. Speaker, we all none of us like issues, but it has been communal there are that admitted all round is issues.

Why communal it necessary for.

anybody to say to us: "Bury your head in the sand and pre tend there is no communal issue to face."

Are we to behave like ostriches, burying our heads in the sand, pre tending that we can see nothing wrong with Malaya.

that there is no com munal issue to be faced?


And so long as there are communal issues to be faced, where is it best to fa,ce them but the · place where in .

Parliament-in representatives of the people meet?

Surely that is the most suitable place, and not on street comers and on soap boxes?

(AN HONOURABLE MEMBER; Hear, hear).

then The effect of the inclusion of para graph (c) would be that to a very large extent this Parliament· will cease to reflect the views of the people.
Is that the democracy we want?

Is that the reputation we are trying to get overseas for this Parliament of our5?

Will it be possible for our Minister to stand up · in an overseas country or the United Nations and say: "We have parliamentary democracy in Malaya" when you pass a law to .seal the mouths of ¥embers of Parliament.

Mr. Speaker, Sir.it is for tliat reason tliat I am opprising the amendment to the amendment.
I am not saying any thing further at this stage, because I have a good deal more to say on this subject regarding :(a)· :and (b), but I ·believe we will have another oppor· tubity ,to speak.

· ' · , Dato' Suleiman: Mr. Speaker, Sir, since we the Alliance oppose deletion three-we want all of all ,be included'-!

believe I better wait and answer all the Members when I come to speak later.
In this case we cannot accept the amendment to delete (a) and (b) because we want all of them., to Dr. Lim Swee Aun (Larut Selatan): Mr. S~aker, I am happy to note that the mild .stimulation that I injected into the.

Members of the Opposition yester day has brought about the desired effects.

I am particularly glad to bear from the.

Honourable Member from Bungsar that he bas practically admit· ted that there are Members in tlfe Opposition who have mental defects .
~ .• Mr. V. David: Mr. Speaker, Sir, we know when to seek his advice.

When we do a service, we will do it without any money.

Dr. Lim Swee Aun: Mr. Speaker.

Sir, I must thank the Honourable Member from Bungsar for the great compliment that he has paid to my professional skill.

and I can assure him and all the other Members who have mental defects7 and probably mental deficiencies~that they are most wel come .

.

.

.

Mr. Speaker: I must rule that out.

I think that is under_stood.

.


Dr. Lim Swee Aun: The point was raised yesterday that there should be nationalisation of doctors, but I can also assure Members· of the Opposition that they need not wait for the nationa· lisation of doctors before they get free · treatment.

Mr. K. Karam Singh: Mr. Speaker, Sir, what has that got ·to do with this niotion?

· Mr.·Speaker: Will you confine your self to the subject matter before .

the House, that is, the amendment to the · 1 amendment?
Dr •.. Liaa Swee Aun: Mr. Speaker, that is· just tbe .

point-I want you to ~verrule me.. That is .

why , we want Standing Ordcl's; that is ·why we want these amendments; that is just the point, and I have proved my point.

1479 9 DECEMBER 1959 1480 There has been a lot of talk this morning that by these amendments this House will be robbed of freedom of speech, and I am very glad to hear from the Honourable Member from Dato' Kramat on the different aspects of free dom which he has touched on.
I would like to add one more aspect, and that is that all Members of this House must have remembered a story about the frogs and the little boy.

Now, that little ~ boy had the freedom to throw:_ stones.

He had the freedom to throw sfones at any time, but he chose to throw stones at the little frogs.

Some little stones missed the frogs, some of the stones hit the frogs, some of the stones killed the frogs.
The moral behind that is that whilst he had that freedom of action, there was death on the other side.

Similarly, anyone has the freedom to own a car.

He can own a 1920 Baby Austin, or he can own a 1959 Cadillac.

He also has the freedom of choice.

He can choose the colour of blue, the colour of chocolate or even red .

.

.

Mr. V. David: Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are only confined to the amendment to the amendment.
When I spoke here previously, I was ruled out several times when I referred to other matters.

Mr. Speaker: Your introduction is too long.

Dr Lim Swee Aun: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am demonstrating to this House that there must be order from the Chair, and these objections all support our side of it: that there must be amend ment to Standing Order 36, which controls what a speaker should say during debate.

This is the demonstra tion (Applause).


Mr. K. Karam Singh: Mr. Speaker, the on a point of clarification-if Honourable speaker wants to really prove his poirtt, let him utter some treasonable or seditious words. )

Dr. Lim Swee Aun: Mr. Speaker, Sir, while there has been .a lot of talk of freedom of speech, does the Honourable Member from lpoh give me the freedom of speech to call him "traitor", to call him "subversiv~".

to call him "provo cateur" of col:tununal issues.

· Certainly not.
· Certainly not.

· · Mr. D. R. Seenivasagam: Mr. Spea ker, Sir, I have been asked a question.

I give him that right provided he gives me the privilege of saying that he is the· man who has sold the Chinese in this country.

Dr. Lim Swee Aun: These are rules of debate.

That is why we are not allowed to say such things.

That is why we must have these rules, these amend ments, of not .
being allowed to use words that are treasonable, words that are seditious, words that are likely to promote feelings of m:wm or hostility between the different communities of the Federation.

.

I am very glad that the Opposition has .

popped up on several occasions, they have objected to what I have said, though we all said that there should be freedom of speech.

But the point is : let us be honest with ourselves.

Whilst we have freedom, there must be a limitation to the intention.
I have the freedom to use a car.

Everybody has the freedom to use a car.

He has the freedom to go anywhere he likes, any time he likes, and he even has the freedom to commit suicide and kill himself, but has he the freedom .

.

Mr. V. David: Mr. Speaker, Sir, we don't have that freedom : the law doesn't allow a man to commit suicide.

Dr. Lim Swee Aun: My point is this: has he the freedom to use his car as a weapon of destruction; to intentionally run over his opponent?

Surely not.
Surely not.

I am sure the learned Members across the floor must agree that there must be some limitation somewhere.

Again, as I said, Members of the Opposition have objected to this because they say that by introducing these amendments there will be no freedom of speech, and we cannot bring up communal I am indebted to the Honourable Member from Dato Kramat, who has just pointed that amendment (c) does not prevent this House from bringing up communal issues.
What it does prevent is the use of words which are likely to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility between the different commu nities.

I think that is the most important point,.

and if · you will look up the next page, the explanation says that issues.

1481 9 DECEMBER 1959 "'-• 1~ 1482 for fighting them out!

rights of Mr. D. R. Seenivasagam: By selling Dr. Lim Swee Aon: You have sold going· beyond the limit.
then we cons ciously or unconsciously may create communal strife within this country, and ruin the freedom which we have fought so hard to get.

So, on that issue, I object strongly to both the amend· ments (Applause).

the essence of this amendment is to prevent words calculated to arouse communal feelings from being used.

That is the point, that is, the intention behind the use.

of words, not the prevention of discussion on communal issues.
Now, if the Honourable Mem ber from Ipoh is at all sincere that he is the the bche' ~ad Boedamam (setapak): Chinese-which I doubt-I can assure Tuan Yang d1-Pertua, apa yang baharu him that we on this side of the floor berlaku sebentar tadi dengan sendiri• can assure him, can assure Malaya nya membuktikan kapada kita cberaian and can assure the whole world that · (c) dalam bahagian 36 ini patut kita we will fight for the rights of all the pak~i.
Tua~ .Ya11$ di-Pertua, di-dala~ citizens of Malaya (Applause), whether P~rhmen mt, kita datang mewakili they be Malays, Chinese, Indians or r~ ayat unt~ menyuara~an .hasrat dan kemahuan ra ayat 1tu.

Kita tidak dudok minorities.

.

.

di-dalam Parlimen ini untok mengeluar kan kata2 yang boleh menimbulkan rasa marah bukan sahaja antara satu kaum dengan satu kaum yang lain, te tapi juga antara satu orang aengan satu orang.
Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sa-benar nya bukan sahaja soal2 yang boleh menimbulkan marah di-antara satu kaum dengan satu kaum, ~tapi kita harus memberi kuasa itu sadikit kapada Tuan Yang di-Pertua untok menahan kata2 yang boleh · menimbulkan marah di-antara satu kaum dengan satu kaum; di-antara satu orang dengan satu orang, di-antara satu pati dengan satu pati umpama-nya.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, soal2 communal, soal2 perkauman, dengan soal2 perkauman yang boleh membawa perasaan marah ada-lah berbeza.
Umpama-nya, kehidupan ka ·;selmohan orang Melayu menderita daa saya berdiri mengatakan bela-lah nasib orang Melayu yang menderita ini.

Saya ~mbawa satu soal atau satu kenyataan tentang penghidupan orang Melayu, saya katakan, orang ~tapi kalau Melayu yang ~rlampau susah itu, "mari kita bantam orang Tiongwa orang China, orang India umpama nya", ini boleh menimbulkan perasaan marah dan menimbulkan kachau bilau dalam tanah ayer kita ini.

them out, I am afraid!

(Interruption).

But Malaya is a new country.


We have gained our independence; and the beautiful part of Malaya is that though we are multi-racial, we are one nationality.

And the biggest compli ment ever paid to us was done last night at the State Banquet given to the Right Honourable Prime Minister Menzies of Australia, who said that Malaya should be taken as the model to the rest of the world, where plural society can live together and work together (Applause).
It would therefore be a tragedy, a great tragedy, if this House is permitted to be used for the destruction of this unity and this harmony amongst the races.

What we do not want in this House is the use of words calculated to arouse antogonism among the dif ferent races, to arouse the Malays to fight the Chinese, or the Chinese to fight the Indians, or what have you.

That should not be our intention, and any reasonable person should not object to leaving those words out.
Now, going back to the story of the little frog and the boy : if that boy had somebody to tell him: "Do not throw that stone at that frog", that I frog would not have died.
Similarly in this House, Honourable Members have freedom of speech, they can say anything· they like, but if the Speaker has not the power to stop us front Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kerana sebab2 itu saya memikirkan juga bahawa da lam tanah ayer kita sekarang ini belum ada sa~ Undang2-.satu Legislation melarang pati2 perkauman, melarang soal2 perkauman, telatah perkauman.

Jadi, Tuan di-Pertua, kerana Undang2 itu tidak ada dan .k~ana orang · boleh melakukan perkara ini di-luar maka.
1483 9 DECEMBER 1959 1484 1 .

t m n men Debate resumed on original Amend- Tuan Yang di-NrtUa~ sa-bagai badan organise underground unipama-nya yang tertinggi yang illcan di-ikuti oleh untok menghanchorkan Pemerentah ini, ra'ayat, marl kita tunjokan bahawa di- sebab kata2 yang di-keluarkan dalam sini kita tidak akan menggunakan rasa Dewan ini tidak menjadi Mkas apa2.

marah di~antara satu kaum dengan satu Jadi, kami menganggap bahawa (a) dan kaum.
Dan apa sebab-nya maka kami (b) itu superfiu<>Us ia-ini tidak perlu memandang bahawa "A" dan "B" itu ada di-sana, tetapi kami tetap mem tidak patut ada di-sini ia-itu "Treason- pertahankan bahawa · (c) ini bukan able words dan Seditious words".

Tuan communal issue-soal perkauman yang Yang di-PCrtua, di-dalam tanah ayer boleh menimbulkan · pergadohan di kita ini sekarang, ada Uridang2 yang antara kaum.

Itu-lah sebab-nya saya tertentu Mrkenaan dengan "Treason· mempCrtahankan soal ini.
able .wor.ds dan Seditious "'.0rds".

Tuan.

Amendment to orig'nal A e d Yang di-Pertua, kalau kita Anggota Parlimen bagitu Mrani dan bagitu put, and negatived.

gagah mahu nremperkatakan "Treason- able words dan Seditious words" dalam ment.

Dewan ini, marl kita chabar dia di luar.

Mudah sakali kalau dia chakap bagitu, kita lepaskan tangan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dan ada orang yang mengambil-nya.

(Ketawa).

SCbab itu, maka kita memikirkan bahawa yang dua ini boleh kita tolak.
KCdua, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, soal apa-kah· itu Treasonable, dan apa-kah itu Seditious, barangkali satu orang sukar :m!nen~ tukan-nya bahkan, Tuan Yang di Pertua, di-Mahkamah, Jdta hatus di· bicharakan dahulu, di·hakimkan, baharu-lah di-ambil ·keputusan untok menentukan apa-kah .

bCnar Treason able dan apa-kah benar Seditious.

Jadi, kerana ini, .
Jadi, kerana ini, .

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Un:dangl yang boleh menyekat perkara Treasonable··words dan Seditious words ini saya rasa · superftous; mengada2 sahaja kalati kita mengadakan palam Dewan ini.

KCdua, dengan mengadakan dua clauses ini sa-olah2 ini ada-lah satu charaban tempelak kapada kita Aug gota Dewan Parlimen ini.
Kita semua menjadi Anggota yang sah dalam Parlimen ini dan kita telah mengangkat sumpah setia kapada Tanah Ayer, setia kapada Undang2 Perlembagaan dan setia kapada Duli Yang Maha Mulia Seri Paduka Baginda Yang di- Pertuan Agong.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sudah banyak dapat -Oi~pertahankan di-sini berkenaan dCngan apa yang hendak di-lakukan Mrhubong dCngan Peratoranl yang ini.

Raniai di-kemukakan di-Majlis ~ngatakan · bahawa Peratoran ini bukan-lah mengikat.
dan berbagai2 pentafsiran yang berlainan, tetapi saya tahu bahawa tiap2 ·orang yang ber chakap di-sini tujuan.

Msar-nya ia-lah supaya Parlimen .

ini menjadi sa-buah Parlimen yang Mnar2 berguna.

Me nurut sa-tengah2 pehak pula b,endak kan kapada keelokkan Parlimen ini.

maka di-adakan sharat2 dan menurut sa-tengah2 pehak pula untok sempurna nya hidup .Parlimen negeri ini, maka jangan-1,ah ada: sekatan2 yang sa-rupa itu.
bcbe' Zolkiftee bin Muhammad: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya bangun di-sini menerangkan apa yang sa tengah2 orang menyangka tidak terang berkenaan dengan · ~rdirian.

pehak Party PAS di-Majlis ini.

Kami ada-lah menyokong bahawa semua insertion yang bertulis di-sini di-hapuskan.

· Kalau kita telah betul2 ikhlas me~ ngfiluarkan sumpah setia itu, maka ini ada-lah sat\J penghenaan kapada kita.

Jikalau kita mahy menjadi Traitor, khlau kita mahu menjadi sa-orang yang melfiWan Peni~rentah.
melawan Keraja an, menjatohkan Kerajaan umpama riya, tetapi kita tidak guna Mrkata di sini.

kita boleh organise di-luar.

Saya merasa.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, bahawa sharat2 ini tidak mustahak.

sebab kita telah bCrjalan dengan Un dang2 Standing Order Dewan Ra'ayat yang ada ini dengan tidak ada per kataa112 atau sharat2 yang tersebut.

dan alhamdulillah.

hingga ka-hari ini apa yang · di-maksudkan, · apa yang hendak di-kawal oleh ·Peratoraf12 ini tidak juga timbul.
Dua perkara yang telah, di-sebutkan tadi tela:h di-bahath· kan · dengan banyak~nya ia:-itu sharat 1485 9 DECEMBER 1959 --,, •''~ ~i '.

1486 (a) dan (b), maka sekarang ini saya hendak mengulas berkenaan dengan sharat (c) itu.

Nampak:-nya telah men jadi satu nekmat kapada Ahli2 Yang Berhormat di-Dewan ini memperkata kan apa yang hendak di-katakan-nya 00,rkenaan dengan pertubohan2 orang lain.
Maka pada hari ini terdengar-lah pada kita bahawa perkataan2 rang menghala ka-mari sa-oJah2 orang di· sini memang suka supaya perkauman itu marak dan membakar di-negeri ini.

Kami berharap-lah supaya mereka itu jangan-lah berbuat bagitu.

Tuan.

Yang di-Pertua, memang su sah hendak memberi satu pentafsiran dalam politik.
Kalau Party PAS mem perjuangkan hak bangsa Melayu di negeri ini dan b&k™ndakkan supaya Melayu itu menjadi Kebangsaan negeri ini, maka kapada PAS ini-lah per• juangan yang di-namakan National ntleri ini, bukan communal, tetapi dlilang-nya sa-tengah2 pehak itu-lah pula yang communal.
Saya katakan sharat (c) ini, Tuan· Yang di·Pertua, terpaksa-lah kita buangkan, kerana pada amalan-nya perkara irii akan melumpohkan perjuangan party2 poli· tik yang ada bertujuan hendak mem betulkan kedudokan2 yang mereka di-lantek oleh ra'ayat.

Berchakap-lah, Tuan .

Yang di· Pertua, orang yang Mndakkan bahawa dia datang di-sini ia-lah kerana itu dan kerana ini, tetapi · saya datang di sini kerana bangsa .

Melayu.

Apabila saya berbuat demikian, saya berasa bahawa itu ada-lah National, hak negen ini.
Maka orang2 lain hendak berkata kata-lah apa yang Mndak di· katakan-nya.

sekarang, apabila kita adakan Peratoran ini, sCdang · orang2 yang menjadi Ahli .

Parlimen mempu nyai keperchayaan masing2 dan dengan di~sampaikan-nya di keperchayaan sini, maka dengan Peratoran ini ter tutup-nya pintu untok membela, sebab dalam pentafsiran .. nya kita ada-lah berlainan.

Kata sa-orang Ahli Yang Berhormat tadi bahawa kita tidak mahu bergadoh berkenaan dengan liendak memper baiki satu2 puak dan bangsa.
Itu bagus, tetapi jangan sampai membawakan bertumbok, bergadoh di-antara ba~sa2 tetapi yang ada di-sinL ltu yang tak boleh, tetapi ini bukan perkara mudab, bukan mudah hendak menentukan bagi menahan sa-suatu itu.

Ya, senang sahaja.
Ya, senang sahaja.

serahkan kapada kebijaksanaan kapada Tuan Yang di-Pertua-memang benar, ini ada satu mithal concrete yang hendak saya bawakan di-sini, ia-itu · dalam Titah Uchapan Duli Yang Maha Mulia Timbalan Yang di-Pertuan Agong Baginda men chadangkan supaya membena, mem bentok satu bangsa di-negen ini dengan tak kira nama atau bangsa.

Bagi mengulas-nya .
Bagi mengulas-nya .

saya berkata bahawa dalam memberia · satu bangsa itu ter· pilksa-lah ·di·bua.t dengan chara kebu dayaan dan elok•lah kalau dari seka rang kita ambit K~budayaan Melayu sa-bagai teras bagi .. Kebudayaan Ke· bangsaan di-negeri ini.
Yang.Berh0rmat Timbalan Perdana Menteri .. pun me nerima pada dasar~n:ya · apa yang saya chakapkan itu, tetapi, Tuan Yang di Pertua, (c) "words which are likely to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility between different communities in the Federation"; perkataan Jni telah me· nalian saya daripada membawakan perkara ini cli-jadikan usul.

Saya telan meminta supaya ini di-jadikan usul, tetapi telah terpaksa di-tahan,.
kerana takut ~rchakap sa-macham ini, pada hal ada dalam sa-telah uchapan maka di-sambut baik .

oleh Kerajaan sendiri yang mana benda yang satu .itu di-tafsirkan .

berlainan oleh orang2 di-sini.

· apabila Oleh yang .demikian, saya rasa besok bahawa dalam · Atoran kita ini.

Party PAS yang mana sa-orang · daripada Ahli~nya meminta supaya di-terima-lah telah lulus Darjah VI orang2 yang SCkolah Kebangsaan menjadi Juru rawat, chuba kita fikirkan apa yang akan terjadi.
Perkara ini akan ber· bangkit-lah bagi orang2 yang memper tahankan hal kita ini mengatakan bahawa mustahak sangat orang2 yang lulus SCkolah2 Kebangsaan-orang2 itu .

di Melayu menjadi Jururawat terima.

Dan sa-orang daripada Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Kuala Trengganu setata:n m~nchadangkan supaya tulisan ini di-j;ldikan tiµi$an JB;wj, ltu .

ju~ tneningg~an.

~·to promote ·feelings.

C?f "' .. .

.


f~87 9 DECEMBER 1959 1488 sebab dalam ill-will or hostility'', expansion atau pun dalam memper ketatkan maka pentafsiran kita ber bedza2.

keadaan Saya menghormatkan Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dan saya perchaya dengan kebijaksanaan Tuan Yang di-Pertua, tetapi Peratoran ini tidak akan me nolong dalam membuat apa yang patut di-jalankan.
Jadi, saya rasa oleh ke rana sampai sekarang ini belum tim bul yang menyebabkan bahawa kita hendak menunjokkan kapada dunia yang kita memang datang di-sini tak hendak bergadoh, kerana "ill-will or hostility" itu samemang ada dalam otak kita, chuma tak dapat di keluarkan sahaja.

Oleh yang demikian, saya rasa, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kita hapuskan Standing Order 36 ini.

Mr. S. P. Seenivasagam: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to supplement what I said earlier.
Sir, it is possible, highly possible, that with the voting power in this House, the Honourable Members opposite will push through the proposed Report.

But, I would urge those who have the power in their hands now to think carefully what they are doing to-day.
The people of Malaya are just beginning to believe in parliamentary democracy; they are just beginning to respect Parliament; just becoming interested in elections: and I would urge those Hon()urable Members to consider what is going to be the reaction to this.

Thousands of people in the East Coast, thousands of people in the main towns of the Malay Penin sula-what are they going to say?

"We send our representatives to fight for certain things and they cannot do it.
So, what is the use of Parliament to us?

Is there any room in Parliament for us?"

That will be the question that will be borne in the minds of people who voted for the candidates of certain Parties.

they are It may be that the time will come when a Member of Parliament on my right may wish to introduce a motion concerning the Malays..
The discussion of that motion in this House may create a certain amount of feeling of ill-will or displeasure among reasonable or the other unreasonable persons in community.

Is that motion going to be ruled out of order?

We on the other hand may introduce a motion which may create a certain amount of feeling of ill-will or displeasure to the other side.

Is our motion going to be ruled out of order?


We on our part say that anybody has a right to introduce any motion in this House if it is a problem which faces the people of this country.

That is what we are here for-whether it displeases the Chinese or whether it displeases the Malays, it is immaterial.

We, who believe in democracy, want that right for every Party, not only for our Party.

(AN HONOURABLE MEMBER : Hear, hear.).


One Honourable Member has said that it depends on the way how you speak in Parliament.

Let me assure that Honourable Member that we have not come here to make begging speeches.

If we think we have a right to demand for something, we shall demand it.

If anybody thinks that because we are in the Opposition, we have got to beg and will have to be humble in our approach, he is making the biggest mistake of his life.

(AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Hear, hear.).


Le.t us consider carefully the terms of the Com the recommendations of mittee: "It shall be out of order to use (a) treasonable words; (b) seditious words;" to like On that enough has been said, but I would remind Honourable Members that it is not so simple as that-to find out what is treasonable and what is seditious.

Cases have gone from the lowest courts in India right up to the Privy Council in London to find out the meaning of sedition .
and yet Mr. Speaker is expected in a fraction of a minute to say, "That is sedition, that treason-withdraw those words."

is Then, let us come to (c)-"words which are likely to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility between different communities in the Federation."
Sir, some Honourable Members are under the that "words" mean single words, but in the context of this "words" mean a speech and that is all it can mean : a speech which is likely impression 1489 9 DECEMBER 1959 1490 to promote feelings of ill-will-that is what it can mean and only mean, and it means nothing else.

It does not mean single words picked at random from here and there.

It means the tenor of the speech.

In other words, if in the course of a speech· you are uttering words which together incite .
feelings of ill-will or hostility, you will be ruled out of order.

But is that as far as it goes?

Are we quite clear as to what power is conferred on Mr. Speaker?

Would anybody be able to clarify?

If we submit a motion to-morrow claiming certain things for a certain community, does that enable the Speaker to rule it out of order, even before it comes before the House.

even before anybody knows that such a motion is in exis tence?
What is the interpretation Mr. Speaker is going to put on it, nobody knows.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, even the Constitu tion provides that the Constitution may be amende~that is the right given.

to Parliament-With a two-third majority.

May be Honourable Members on the other side may want to fotroduce certain amendments which are not pleasing to us, and may be we want to introduce amendments which are not pleasant to them.

Are we.. both of us-, going to be told to keep our mouths shut in this Parliament?
Sir, a red herring has been drawn across the debate allUding to commu nalism.

bloodshed and rioting in other countries and how fortunate we are in Malaya.

It is true.

That is the very thing-that the people of Malaya are sensible people.

In spite of the elections campaign, where has there been com munal rioting, bloodshed-except for one incident in Penang for which I submit no document has been furnished up to this day to say that it originated as a result of any political party's agitation?
That happened because some school children had been dissatisfied and they staged demonstrations.

What has that got to do with political parties.

freedom of speech, communalism and all that sort of things?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I listened with very great regret and with a great deal of shock to what the Honourable Member for Dato Kramat said.

I do not wish to dwell at length on his speech.

Mr. Lim Kean Siew: Better not!

You cannot understand the logic.

Mr. S. P. SeenivQ&gam: Block your ears!

(Laughter).
(Laughter).

Mr. Speaker, Sir, all I wish to say is that the Honourable Member reminded me of a person who had affixed his signature to a document which doomed his political career and he was clutching at straws in this House.

In the course of his speech he considered it relevant, and he was permitted to say---,presumably it must be relevant-that certain parties are in the habit of talking .about insanity, about lavatories, about Australianisa tion, .

.

.

Mr. Lim Keu.
.

.

Mr. Lim Keu.

Siew: Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a point of information, I did not.

say Members.

I said that certain per sons, and if the Honourable Member who stood up thought it meant him, that was not my fault.

Mr. S. P. Seenivasapm: He said certain pefSQns were talking of un pleasant things, and it was obvious to everybody in this House who had their ears open as to whom he was referring, anp let us leave it at that.
However, let me assure everybody that we shall dig up all the dirt we can if it is in the national interest to do .so.

We will not spare our efforts.

We do not advo· cate any CQurse which we do not believe in.

The shocking revelation, made in this House by the Honourable Member for Kuala Trengganu Selatan, reveals to us the position in this House that there are Members who are willing to advocate a course which they do not believe in.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether the pro posed draft Standing Orders are accepted or not, we shall continue to speak in this House on every issue which we think is relevant, and we shall continue to do so until we are ruled out of order by the Chair.

Nor will we accept this thing that has been called the spirit of the proposed amend ment, because we believe there is no spirit in this.

The only intention is to muzzle the Opposition.


We are not going to support any part of this just to earn a few cheers from the Alliance Bench.

Dato' Ono bin laafar: Hear, hear.

1491 9.

DECEMBER 1959 14.92 Tun Abdul RUllk: Mr. Speaker,·Sir, I do not wish to take much.

of the -time of the House on this debate.


I am not a Member of the ·Select Committee of the Standing Orders, but I ·should like on behalf of the Government, and the Leader of the Government in this House, to say a few words on the prac tice and procedure of Select Committees.

Now, Sir, under the Standing Orders various Select Committees are.appointed arid.
in accordance with Standing Order 82 (1), Members of the Opposition have been appointed to sit on these vario~ Select Committees-and it is the inten tion of this Government as far as possible to uphold Standing Order '82 (1).

But it is very important to bear in mind that, if a Member of the Select Committee has agreed to a report and has signed the report.

he should-to be fair to this House-uphold what he has agreed to in writing in the report.

I must say that it is very difficult for.


us to carry out 'the''.

work of this House if, in the various Sel~t Committees that have been a('P<linted, members of the Select Com:rtuttees ·having agreed to· the report and having sigrted the· report were to come to this House and deny what they · have signed.

I·.
I·.

must, on behalf of the Leader of the Government, impress upo.n Members.· of this House that they are being nominated or elected to the various Standing Committees to represent the various political parties and as far as possible to · reflect the views of their political parties : there fore, before they agreed to any issue in the Select Committee they should ensure that they ·carry their respectiV'e parties with them.
It is only by doing that, that we will be able to carry out the work of this Parliament expe ditiously and efficiently.

(Applause).

Dato' Soleilll8D: Mr. Speaker, Sir.

I have been feeling hot and cold feeling the hot air and inhaling the effect of the air conditioning in this room.

I am trying.

.

.

· Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the Honourable Minis ter replying?

Mr. Speaker: He has just spoken on the amendment.


Now lie is in order to speak on the amendment proposed by Mr. Seenivasagam.

Dato' Suleiman: H the Honourable Member feels that he wants to cite all those law books, which he missed doing just now, I am willing to give him the floor.

(Laughter).

Mr. Speaker: Please proceed.

Dato' Suleiman: I do not know whom to thank.

There.

are four Parties repre senting the Opposition and the Inde pendents.

I thank the ,p,M.I.P.,.

the Socialist Front, the P.P.P.


and Party Negara and the Independents.

I.

• • Mr. D. R. Seenivasapm: ·On a point of information, Sir_:_and the Malayan Party.

(Laughter).

· · D•o' Suleiman: Thank you very much-and the Malayan Party.

Sirt when listening to the debate.

a proverb which I have forgotten for a long time has come back to my mind, and that is-I hope I quote the proverb right "Necessity makeS strange bed-fellows": and I could· think of no ·stranger bed· than what I have had .
to fellows · contend with.

Now, I would like to give a recapitu .. lation in regard to the Standing Orders Committee of which I w.as a member.

Sir• let me explain and remind this House that that Committee, undoubted• ly, was appointed by the Committee of Selection whi.ch .

was appointed by this House, but I can assure this House .

that among the members of the -Com mittee of Selection-and here I would theh' .

names, as · it is like to give record, were .

the.
the.

Honourable on Member for Besut and the Honourable Member for Setapak.

The members of the Committee of Selection appointed the members to this Standing Orders Committee, and ',the Member for Besut named the Honourable Member for Kelantari Hilir as ·representing the Islamic Party and the Member for Setapak named the Honourable Mem ber for Dato Kramat to serve on the Committee; we were told that these two Members represented the various Parties.
Now, during our deliberations when a suggestion was made that there might be a minority report, I did say and you Sir, the Chairman, I hope you will be fair to everybody here 1493 9 DECEMBER 1959 l> '1494 and correct me if I am wrong, because I do not want to mislead the House.

.

.

Mr. Speaker: You better forget (Laughter).

Please about me now.

proceed.

Dato' Suleiman: You have put me off my strides now, Sir.

I did say then that they were at liberty to make a minority report.
Mr. Lim Kean Siew: Mr. Speaker, Sir, 1 do not wish to in:terrupt, but si.J;lce the Honourable Minister of the :interior has decided to talk about the minority report, I am sure that all those in the Committee could remem· ber that I wanted a minority rei>ort; however, to avoid that, we compro mised, and paragraph 2 was written in stating that this is a matter of an experimental nature : we did this because we wanted to present a unified view to the House.
Dato' Suleipian: If the Honourable Member will just wait until I have finished and then get up, I .

will sit down.

I said that there was a Member who sugges~ that there might .be a minority re1>9rt-and if the Honourable Member for Dato Kramat would like that bouquet l would give it to him for making that suggestion-but what we did say was tbat we may .

have a minority report.. but it would be better if we were to come to an agreement instead of presenting a minority report.
Does this satisfy the Honourable Mem ber for Dato Kfamat?

Mr. Speaker: Please proceed.

Dato' Suleiman: Now, Sir, the Mem b~r for Kelantan Hilir did tell me that he was not going to be present at a few meetings, because he had some cases in Kelantan, but that he would agree to .

everything if the report was sent to him.

Then, Sir, I also did not attend some meetings.

.

.

Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

That was on a different occasion.


When the Committee was in session I was in Trengganu in connection with a High Court ca~e--and that was an election case against.

the Alliance.
the Alliance.

Dato' Suleiman: I was practising also when I was a Member of the Federal Legislative Council, Member of the State Council of Johore and a Member of the J ohore Executive Council, and when I had a case-a very important one-and if in the middle of that case I had to attend a meeting, I made an application to the Judge who generally granted me permission.

Mr. Tan Phock Kin: On a point of order, Sir.

Is this relevant to the dis cussion?


Mr. Speaker: Yes, because one mem· ber of the Committee who has signed the Report stated that he did not · agree with the Minister is replying to him.

that Report, and Dato' Suleiman: Sir, I feel .

much cooler now and I advise my friends not to interrupt me, so that I will keep cool.

The thing, Sir, is this; He did not attend.

and I also did not attend, the last meeting.

when the Report was drawn up.

and then here we were· given a Report.

We.


had the opportunity to say that we did not agree-in fact, the Member for Kelantan Hilir himself did point out that there was · one Member and he did 8$k to be recorded;, and we agreed and it was recorded.

But he did not, on this point which we are discuss ing, have any objectfon and he signed it.

I Now, Sir, the Honourable Members have come back to this House, because members of their Parties did not agree to what they had.
agreed to: they have come back and turned against us.

against me in fact, and they keep on saying, "the Government, the Alliance ask and everything else".

Sir, Honourable Members of this House, is this fair?

Some Honourable Mem bers have made speeches with great importance, some Honourable Members have allowed themselves to be carried away by their emotions, and some have allowed themselves to be carried away with the heat.
But I come back once again to the principle-the principle of having Members of the Opposition Parties in the Committee which, I say, is at this moment being jeopardised.

I do not understand it.

What is the use of doing so if we are going to have in Government Committee representatives 1495 9 DECEMBER 1959 1496 from each Party, who will come and give their personal opinion, and then come back here and repudiate what they had agreed to.
Mr. D. R. Seenivasagam: Mr. Spea ker, Sir, on this point I am sorry to interrupt, but I would ask for a clear clarification that the Honourable Minis ter is not referring to the People's Progressive Party of Malaya.

Dato' Suleiman: Sir, of course not.

I do not under-estimate my Honour able friend's intelligence : whether he is in sympathy with the other Parties' sentiments, I do not know.
Mr. D. R. Seenivasapm: Mr. Spea ker, Sir, I rose because the Honourable Minister said what is the use of having Honourable Members from the Opposi tion.

Dato' Suleiman: Surely the Honour able Member will agree with me that this is a matter of principle which we are discussing now and he can attack those people who did that, but surely not us.
Now, may I go on to dispose of, first the point raised regarding of all, Article 63 (2) of the Constitution which has been made use of very many times in this debate.

It says- "No person shall be liable to any proceed ings in any court in reseect of anything said or any vote given by him when taking part in any proceedings of either House of ~ar­ liament or any committee thereof."
But, Sir, that says "no person shall be liable to any proceedings", but what we are here debating is this : that this House has got, I think, the power under Article 62 (1).

Sir, to regulate its own procedure- "Subject to the provisions of this Consti tution and of federal law, each House of Parliament shall regulate its own procedure."

What we are doing now, Sir, with this amendment to the temporary Standing Orders is for this House to accept to regulate its own procedure.

Sir.
Sir.

I would like to cite here a passage from Robert's Rules of Order (Revised) in which he says- "While it is important that an Assembly has good rules, it is more important that 1t is not without some rules to govern its proceedings.
It is much more important, for instance, that an Assembly has a rule deter mining the rank of the motion to postpone indefinitely than that to give this motion the highest rank of all subsidiary motions except to lay on the Table as in the United States Senate or give lowest rank as in the United States House of Representatives" and so on, Sir, until the last sentence-"This has been well established by one of the greatest of English writers on Parliamentary law.
Whether these forms be in all cases the most rational or not is really not of so great importance.

It is much more material that there should be a rule to go by than what that rule is; that there may be a uniformity of proceedings in business not subject to the caprice of the chairman or the captiousness of its members.

It is very material that order, decency, and regularity be preserved in a dignified public body."
Sir, I need not expand on that because I am sure the Honourable Members who are practising law will understand this and if they want to read it, I will let them have it.

Sir, I now come to the words "trea sonable words and seditious words".

Sir, the word "democracy" has been put to much abuse as an excuse for misleading this House.

It has been said that it is not democratic to have these provisions put, Sir.
There is in the House of Commons Manual ot the Public Business, Procedure 1951-and I believe that that Parlia ment has already been called the "Mother of Parliaments"--on page 107, Rule 162 (x), which says that a Member while speaking on a question must not- in "utter treasonable or seditious words or use the King's name irreverently;" and there is a footnote saying "See May 430.
Considerable latitude and dis cretion are necessarily allowed to the Speaker and chairman in interpreting or applying these rules."

.Sir, let us go now to this Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice, on page 435.

What does this book say?


reference "Disloyal or disrespectful to King-Treasonable or seditious lanflage or disrespectful use of His Majesty s name would be rebuked by any subject out of Parliament; and it is only consistent with decency, that a member of the legislature should not be permitted openly to use such language in his place in Parliament.

Members have not only been called to order for such offences, but have been reprimanded, com mitted to the custody of the Serjeant or even sent to the Tower."
1497 9 DECEMBER 1959 1498 to Sir, it has also been put forward : "Who are you, Sir, to define 'seditious and treasonable words'?"

But if we just refer to Malayan Union and Federal Ordinances and State and Settlement Enactments on Sedition, in Section 3 we find it is stated: "A sedi tious tendency is a tendency to pro- · mote feelings of ill-will and hostility between different races and classes of the Federation".

the population of You have there at least a guide.


These also apply the provisions with regard to (c), words which are likely to promote feelings of ill-will and hostility between the communities in the Federation.

There is here also now, as I read just now, provision against the use of words likely promote feelings of ill-will and hostility between the different races of the Federation.

This is not a new provision of law, Sir.


But what we are saying here, while we have been elected to sit here in this Honourable House to voice the free dom of speech, shall we make use of to that freedom and privilege, Sir, it to utter sedition and encourage flourish under the protection of the Constitution?

Surely.

Sir, these are the very crimes which would destroy the Constitution.

Now, Sir, may I come back to indi vidual Honourable Members, as I am sure they would like me to reply.
The Honourable Member from lpoh is a very successful legal practitioner.

·He owns a big car, Sir, I am sure he is successful, and if he is successful, he must be a very good legal man.

I cannot believe, and I refuse to believe that he means what he actually says (Laughter).

I have too much respect in his intelligence because, looking at the display of the income that he gets, he cannot get that income if he has not got the intelligence for which I respect him.
Sir, the only regret I have got is this : that while I try to be friendly with the Honourable Member from Ipoh, he keeps on giving me warning.

I don't ever remember having given a warning to anybody, but now I have heard to-day two Honourable Members standing up and giving us warning.

We will take heed of the is much warning, Sir, because, as I say, I prefer to give the Honourable Member the benefit of the doubt that he means well.
But with regard to the Honourable Member saying that the object of this thing is to muzzle the Opposition, I am sure, Sir, as I said, the Honourable intelligent a Member person to really ask me to believe that.

I can assure him that he cannot convince me of that, because he knows that he can speak.

It is only up to him when you stop him, and as the Honourable Member from Menglembu just said, he will continue until you stop him.

That is what we are trying to do (Laughter).


too Mr. Speaker: Not "we"-the Speaker, you mean. "

Dato' Suleiman: Oh, yes-by you, Sir, as Speaker-I am sorry, Sir Dato' Speaker (Laughter).

Mr: Speaker: By the Speaker.

Dato' Suleiman: Berkenaan dengan .. Berkenaan dengan Ahli Yang Ber honnat dari Besut selalu Ahli Yang Berhormat ini ~rchakap colonial2, kita ini menjalankan colonial, undang2 semua sa-kali colonialism.
Tetapi bagai mana yang saya sudah bachakan tadi, di-dalam · Peratoran perbahathan di EngJand ada juga perkara ini, saya fikir tentu-lah Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Besut barangkali suka mendengar daripada satu negara Islam, Pakis tan.

Peratoran perbahathan di-dalam National Assembly of Pakistan pada muka 27, berkenaan dengan perbaha than, ada di-sini kata-nya, Peratoran No.

13(), Limitation of debate, "The matter of every speech shall be strictly the relevant Assembly.
A member while speaking shall not utter treasonable seditious or defamatory words, or make use of offen sive expressions."

Di-sini tentu-lah saya perchaya Ahli Yang Berhormat tidak akan mengatakan dari Besut Pakistan bukan-nya negara Islam dan Pakistan menurut hendak mengambil Peratoran daripada colonialism (Tepok) ada di-Pakistan.
Jadi susah-lah, selalu2 bagaimana juga saya katakan demo krasi selalu di-katakan, di-hantukan2 di-buat sa-bagai satu sebab, bagitu-lah the matter before to V,99 9 DECEMBER 1959 ~rkenaan dengan colonialism ini se· lalu di-buat sebab.

Tetapi kita tahu Pakistan negara Islam yang sudah merdeka 10 tahun lebeh daripada kita ada mengadaka,n peratoran ini.
Oleb kerana saya dengan Ahli Yang Ber· hormat itu sunggoh pun bertengkar2- baik-ta' usah-lah saya ~rch~ap banyak; rasa saya chukup-lah bagi Ahli Yang Berhormat itu.

in I come now, Sir, to the Honourable Member for Dato Kramat, my col league the Committee.

While I appreciate his speech, I cannot excuse him for what happened this morning.
When I came straight back from Aus tralia, I hurried here, I found out from the Parliamentary Draftsman that the Honourable Member for Dato ·Kramat had telephoned him and offered .

to second this motion.

So I approached him, and till last night I was under the impression-and even this moming that he was going to second this·tnotion.

As you see .

this morning, and as Honourable Members saw, I was in a terrible predicament.

There was nobody to second my .motion.


Arid this motion is not from the Alliance or from the Government-this is a Committee of the House.

Now, Sir; that completely upset not only my nerves, even µiy stomach t~specially when the air condition was not operating and you allowed us to take off our coats.

You can just imagine, Sir.

That was why I felt very much upset.

Not, Sir, that I object to his agreeing to his Party.

Members.

I am a Party man myself.

If he had come to me and told me.


that he wanted to Withdraw from seconding the motion, I would have agreed, and I would have been prepared .... Mr. Tan Phock.

Kin: On a point of clarification, Mr. Speaker-according to the Report, it is stated here on page 24. paragraph 5, that the Question proposed that the mover and seconder of the motion for the adoption of the Report of the Standing Orders Com mittee of this House be nominated by the Chairman at a later date.
May I know whether the Chairman had llomi· nated · both proposer and seconder?

Mr. Spe~er: I think that Is imma· · ::, terial.

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· 1m Dato' Suleiman.

: I aiµ only telling this House how patient I am, Sir, on all this.

Again, as I say, while I appreciate the difficulties which ·the Honourable Member was facing-as the House had just seen , just now that his colleagues would not support him and trieQ.

to make a compromise-I can appreciate his position.

But then.
But then.

Sir, fortunately for him, he has got all my ·sympathy.

Mr. V. David: Mr. Speaker, I think the ·Honourable Minister is imputing on the Member for Dato Kramat.

Mr. Speaker: No, I don't think so.

Dato' Suleiman: I am only praising him, Sir.

I feel that as a colleague of mine .

in this ColllJllittee.

when the Honourable Member from Kuala Trengganu Selatan attacked him for making a speech to support whatever he·· could on wh~t he agreed upon, .

he was branded something else.


I don't envy hiS positiori, · and I quite under stand him,.

and I have always sympathy for people who have got me into difficulties (Laughter).

. "

· ' ' Now.

Sir, •let me come fo my Honourable friend the Member from Kuala Trengganu Selatan, ·for Whom I have always great admiration, but great admiration· which every -now and again is tinged· with.

regret, for I am shocked .at that Hdnouiable Member, knowing what his reoord is and what he had done .
in the Communities Liaison Committee~he· was.

so proud of it, and I was very proud of it.

And here, in this debate, the Honour~ble .Member asked this particUlar that portion-36 (c}-should be deleted and giving reasons-if I am wrong it the Honourable Member.

to is for correct me-which will encourage words~I had better read.

because my Honourable friend is.

sitting alert to catch me by the throat: .

"words which are likely to.


promote feelings of ill-will and hostility between different communities in the Federation."

, Dato' Onn bin Jaafar: Sir, on a matter of clarification, I see no connec tion between what happened 14 years l ago and .

the debate ~ow~ 1561 9 DECEMBER 1959 1502 ; Dato' Suleiman: No, Sir.

I was men· tioning that because then the Honour· · able Member was for everything non· communal.

Mr. Speaker: There is no connection.

Dato' Suleiman~ There is no connec· tion?


I see, there is no connection.

Sir, I have replied to him with regard to who should decide on these words, but I do feel sorry that the Honourable Member from Kuala Trengganu Selatan should take· to· task my Honourable friend from Dato Kramat, who was trying to do what he was deputed to do, at least, as far as .

possible, to support whatever Ile could of this motion.

':Dato' Onn bin Jaafar: He asked for it.

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Dato' Suleiman: We have different views.


that as Sir.

as to the Honourable Member for Tanjong, with regard to the ban· ning of communal organisations, I believe the Honourable Member from Menglembu mentioned the reason.

Sir, surely that is a great argu .ment in favour of us--:that we .

are practising demoeracy.

Sir.

treason has nothing to do with the .· Government, nor has sedition; but it is the role of the :Public Prosecutor.
But with regard to the banning of· communal parties, then if we do that.

we won't be demo cratic.

But here again, of course, if I were to ban, the Honourable Member would also say we are not democratic, because we restrict the liberties of the p~ple to form · whatever association they like, and if we are going to ban .

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'Mr.
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'Mr.

S~ P. Seenivasagalil: Mr. Spea· k~r; on a point of explanatiop, the that a communal point made was political party is allowed to fight the elections and · wip the elections.

but when they come into this House, they are npt allowed to.

speak.

That was tlt~· point.

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· .

, ~ 1Dato' SuJeimant Whichever applies if ·it is not tht Honourable Member :frOm Menglembu.

then it is , another Member.

· .

Surely ·the Member for Tanjong did say we did not ban com· munal organisations.
Well, we do not want to ban communal organisations because we are being very democratic: we don't try to do it.

But what is being discussed here has nothing to do with the .Alliance but what had been considered and suggested by the Committee, Sir, and it is for this House now to accept or not-it is for this House now to decide.

As I said, Sir, there· were two repre· sentatives from the Opposition Par· ties-the Member for Dato Kramat, and for the Honourable Member Kelantan Hilir.
Whether they want to say now they did sign· after reading it, whether their eyes were wide open when they agreed with it, or they now say they either did not read or they had never agreed when they signed it, is up to the Honourable Members to decide for themselves.

What conclusion could be drawn from that, I leave to the House.

If I were to tell you my conclusion, Sir, it would be asking for trouble-I would be finished.

Sir, there has been a great deal of confusion of thought in this matter.
When some Honourable Members one of them was the Honourable Mem ber for Damansara-kept on accusing the Alliance Government, the Alliance Party, are wanting to do this.

I am very surprised.

I am very suprised as the Honourable Member from Daman· sara is a legally qualified man.

That is why I ·have.

so much respect for the Members from lpoh and Menglembu.

They kept quite clear.

But the Honour· able Member for Damansara made allegatfons against the Government, and against the Alliance Party-so .much so.
l am beginning to think that it was lucky when he was talking just now that the air-conditioning started again.

Otherwise.

probably on account of the heat in this room and the heat that will come out from him, I would have to leave the room and I would not be able to answer him.

What I would like to ask from the Honourable Member for Damansara is fair·play.

·When it is not ·the Government's do· ing-nor ·the Alliance ·Party's doing- then be fair.
If we do it,·] can assure 1503 9 DECEMBER 1959 1504 the Honourable Member for Daman sara the responsibility.

that we will accept Now, Sir, with regard to the Honour able Member for Bungsar, I did not want to tease him; nor to pull his legs; nor put him off his stride.

What I was telling him just now-and I have to repeat it becaust;.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you said I would haive tpe chance to speak, and now that I am speaking I will repeat it with your permission-was that he did say what I actually said in my opening speech : I was afraid that probably he might not understand my Malay.

Mr. V. David: Mr. Speaker, I think we understand better Malay than the Alliance non-Malay Members them selves.

(Interruption).

Dato' Suleiman: Sir, he is not fair now.

At least when I spoke to him I did try to tell facts.
As I said just now, in fact, my trouble is this : when I asked in Committee if Ministers here got any special privileges, at least in reading speeches, because we got so many Bills and so on to introduce, I was told that there were no special privi leges for Ministers.

In fact, Sir, an Honourable Member, I think it was the Honourable Member for Kuala Trengganu Selatan, took great delight at the beginning of this meeting in saying of every Minister, "He is reading his speech."
Sir, that only shows we have got no privilege at all.

But if the Honourable Member for Bungsar would like us to ask to have some pri vileges, I would not mind; if we could have them, we would be very grateful; and if he would suggest to the House that the Ministers should have pri vileges, I would certainly agree.

Surely, we would like to have them.

Now, Sir, I come to my other col league in the Committee-the Honour able Member for Kelantan Hilir.

I do not know what to think of my Honour able friend.
How could he get up here and say he was sick of it?

He was one of the Members of the Committee.

Therefore he ought to try to come to my rescue, he ought to' try to explain the provisions here to Members of his ,party; to· try to explain to the other Honourable Members of this House, and try to help me, as after all I am not doing this as a Member of the Government .

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Wan Mustapha bin Haji Ali: Sir, on a point of explanation, I was not sick of the Honourable Minister, but I was sick of the other speakers.

Dato' Sulei.man: Thank you very much.

Sir, what I am trying to point out to him is that he has not done his duty he has not done his duty to me.

(Laughter).

What I am worried about is that he has not done his duty to the other Members by explaining to them.

He just got up here and said he was quite sick of the debate.

Can you imagine such a thing?


The only thing I have to say is that I am feeling very sorry, if he is going to be sick of.

all the recommendations he makes this House.

in is in Sir, at the beginning of the debate just now, some Honourable Members tried to mislead this House, and I am sorry to say that the Honourable Member for Kelantan Hilir did try to mislead the Honourable Members of this House, and he tried to ascertain that there was no provision of this nature anywhere.
In fact what he was looking for the Halsbury Laws of England.

I was his colleague in the Committee and if he had asked me, I would have supplied him with the information.

If he had asked me about the procedure, I would have supplied him with this Manual of Procedure, Public Business, House of Commons, 1951.

Now, to think that my colleague would let me down like this, is very bad of him, as he belongs to the same profession, the legal profession.
Even if I can excuse him, Sir, as a Member of this House because he has got pri vileges, as a member of the profession I cannot excuse my Honourable friend for trying to mislead not only the House, but even me by reading Hals bury Laws of England.

Sir, one little point more and that is in regard to the Honourable Member for Menglembu.

I have a great respect for his intelligence.

He might have con vinced Judges in cases which he had won.
However, I can assure him that he has not convinced JDC;.tbat he really 1505 9 DECEMBER 1959 1506 Ongmal Amendment put, and nega- would be rebuked .

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tived.

believes 100 per cent of it, when he says that this is a perpetration of an outrage on democracy and all these things.

rthink it is a matter of rhetoric.


Of course, being a very good legal practitioner he has made a very good attempt to convince me, but I am afraid I cannot be convinced, and I give the Honourable Member a bouquet for that.

I am sure he does not believe in what he says 100 per cent because this is not a perpetration of an outrage on democracy.

As I said just now, they appear in the Rules and Procedures of the Mother of Parliament in England.

that is all, Sir.

(Applause).

Sitting suspended at 5.00 p.m.


Sitting resumed at 5.20 p.m.

Debate ; resumed on Original Ques tion, "That the First Report of the Standing Orders Committee, tabled as Paper No.

DR. 2 of 1959, be adopted, with effect from this meeting".
the end of 1 Mr. D. R. Seenivasagam: Mr. Spea ker, Sir, I rise again to oppose the proposed amendment and during this reference I would like shortly to refer to the the observations made by Honourable Minister of the Interior with regard to using the name of His Majesty or others.

That is already pro vided for in our Standing Orders as it now stands-Order 36 (7), (8), etc.
It is significant that the Honourable Minister of the Interior has not at any stage of his speech or reply touched on the proviso (c), which it is intended to place into these Standing Orders.

Sir, nowhere in any Parliament do we find any such provision in any Standing Orders of any country, even where there are different communities living in the same land; nowhere in the free world could you find such a pro vision-not even in India or Ceylon, where there have been communal troubles.
And this clearly indicates to 8769~00-26-5-60.

this House the serving that freedom of speech.

importance of pre With regard to the Minister's sugges tion that we of the Opposition here do not intend what we say, that is entirely wrong.

We intend every word of what we say, and we want it to be given its fullest meaning.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with regard to this treason and sedition question of though Erskine May has been referred to, I would like to refer to one small passage on page 455 which deals with the question of treason.

It says "Treasonable or seditious langauge or a disrespectful use of Her Majesty's name Dato' Suleiman: Is the Honourable Member still speaking on the decision we have taken just now?

Mr. Speaker: He is quite in order.


We are going back to the substantive motion now and he is quite relevant to speak on that.

Mr. D. R. Seenivasagam: " .

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by any subject out of Parliament; and it is only consistent with decency, that a member of the legislature should not be permitted openly to use such language in his place in Parliament.
Members have not only been called to order for such offences, but have been repri· manded, committed to the custody of the Serjeant or even sent to the Tower."

That can be done as our Standing Orders now stand, though not sent to the Tower, of course, because we have no Tower here.

We can be called to order; we can be reprimanded by the Chair as our Standing Orders now stand.

Therefore, there is not much sub the Minister of the stance, unless Interior is trying to pull wool over this House.
Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved, That the First Report of the Standing tabled as Paper No.

Orders Committee, DR. 2 of 1959, be adopted, with effect from the end of this meeting.

House adjourned at 5.25 p.m.