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Vol.

968 No.
5 Thursday, 3 May 2018 DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DÁIL ÉIREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Insert Date Here 03/05/2018A00100Ceisteanna - Questions � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 593 03/05/2018A00200Priority Questions � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 593 03/05/2018A00400JobPath Programme � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 593 03/05/2018B01850Food Poverty � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 597 03/05/2018C00450Child Benefit Eligibility� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 599 03/05/2018D00250Departmental Records � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 601 03/05/2018E00050Other Questions � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 603 03/05/2018E00100Citizens Information Services � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 603 03/05/2018E01200Labour Activation Programmes� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 605 03/05/2018F01200Poverty Impact Assessment � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 608 03/05/2018G00800State Pension (Contributory) � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 611 03/05/2018H00800JobPath Programme � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �
 614 03/05/2018J00500Fuel Allowance Expenditure � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 616 03/05/2018K00200Community Employment Schemes Supervisors � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 618 03/05/2018K01125Leaders’ Questions � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 619 03/05/2018O00400Questions on Promised Legislation � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 628 03/05/2018U00100Markets in Financial Instruments Bill 2018: Order for Second Stage � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 636 03/05/2018U00500Markets in Financial Instruments Bill 2018: Second Stage � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 636 03/05/2018DD00300Markets in Financial Instruments Bill 2018: Referral to Select Committee � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 655 03/05/2018DD00600Topical Issue Matters � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 655 03/05/2018DD00800Report on the Provision of Foster Care Services in Ireland: Motion � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 656 03/05/2018KK00700Topical Issue Debate � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 666 03/05/2018KK00900Hospital Services � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 667 03/05/2018LL00400Hospital Equipment � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 669 03/05/2018MM00500Mental Health Services � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �
 672 Ports Development � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 675 03/05/2018PP00300Message from Seanad � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 678 03/05/2018PP00500Famine Memorial Day Bill 2016: Second Stage � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 678 03/05/2018UU00500Famine Memorial Day Bill 2016: Referral to Select Committee [Private Members] � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � 690 DÁIL ÉIREANN Déardaoin, 3 Bealtaine 2018 Thursday, 3 May 2018 Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Eugene Murphy) i gceannas ar 10�30 a�m� Paidir.
Prayer.
03/05/2018A00100Ceisteanna - Questions 03/05/2018A00200Priority Questions 03/05/2018A00300Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State, Deputies and staff of the Houses for another day’s work on behalf of the people of the nation� We will begin with questions to the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Pro- tection, Deputy Regina Doherty� As Questions Nos� 1 and 2 have been grouped, Deputies Wil- lie O’Dea and John Brady will have 12 minutes� The procedure is that Deputy Willie O’Dea will have 30 seconds in which to introduce the question; the Minister will have four minutes in which to reply; and Deputies Willie O’Dea and John Brady will have opportunities to ask supplementary questions� 03/05/2018A00400JobPath Programme 03/05/2018A005001� Deputy Willie O’Dea asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection the details of the recently announced changes to the JobPath scheme; and if she will make a statement on the matter� [19262/18] 03/05/2018A006002� Deputy John Brady asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection the effect the recently announced changes to the JobPath scheme will mean for new and exist- ing JobPath participants who wish to move to other schemes; and if she will make a statement on the matter� [19487/18] 03/05/2018A00700Deputy Willie O’Dea: As the Minister is aware, I recently published legislation proposing the change she is introducing; naturally, therefore, I welcome it� I tabled the question to allow her the opportunity to flesh out the details of how it will operate in practice.
03/05/2018A00800Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection (Deputy Regina Doherty): I propose to take Questions Nos� 1 and 2 together� 593 Dáil Éireann As the Deputies may be aware, I recently announced that clients of my Department who were engaged with the JobPath service would from 1 June have the option of applying for com- munity employment scheme and Tús placements while continuing on with their JobPath pro- gramme.
This will ensure jobseekers can benefit from the job seeking support of the JobPath service, while also availing of a part-time work placement which we so value provided by the Tús and community employment scheme organisations.
This will have a number of benefits, both for the vital services provided at a local level by participants in community employment scheme and Tús programmes and directly for the Department’s clients� It will, in particular, enable those people with the JobPath service to not only continue to receive the personalised employment counselling and job search support provided by their JobPath personal advisers but also to avail of a Tús or community employment scheme placement which will provide valu- able occupational activity and work experience� In making this change I was particularly conscious that case managed employment counsel- ling and support had been shown internationally and here in Ireland, based on evidence, to be the most effective means of supporting people back into sustained employment� I did not wish people to cease participation in this type of service in order to take up a place on a part-time State employment programme.
The decision I have made enables people to benefit from both supports available from the State� In taking the decision I was also conscious that the resource constraints that had informed the Department’s policy had thankfully abated somewhat� In the past the Department operated a one-person-one-place policy in order to ration the available places among jobseekers� We are all aware that we had far too many of them at one point� Given the welcome improvement in the labour market, with the unemployment rate now down to under 6% this week, which is great, this policy can be relaxed slightly� The JobPath service will be adapted to cater for those who opt to take up a Tús or com- munity employment scheme placement� All meetings and activities will be scheduled to take account of scheme commitments� For example, if a person is committed to participating in the community employment scheme five mornings a week, any JobPath meeting and other intervention he or she may have will be scheduled for the afternoon, obviously with his or her agreement� The JobPath companies will continue to provide all of the supports they provide for the people with the JobPath service� Community employment scheme and Tús providers will not have to make changes to their operations� They will continue to advertise their jobs for which people with the JobPath service can now apply� The administrative procedures to enable this change to be implemented are being finalised in my Department.
That was why I could not announce it with immediate effect and needed a couple of weeks to change the IT systems� It will go live on 1 June.

I hope that clarifies the matter.


03/05/2018A00900Deputy Willie O’Dea: I thank the Minister for her response� Did I understand her to say that if somebody was in the JobPath system, a vacancy occurred on a Tús or community em- ployment scheme and he or she took up the place, he or she would have to continue with the JobPath service until the expiration of the 12 month period if he or she had already started?
The Minister made reference to rearranging schedules, etc� to ensure a person could do both� Has she had talks with the JobPath companies about this?

Is she satisfied that it will be possible to accommodate meeting people’s JobPath and community employment scheme commitments simultaneously?
03/05/2018A01000Deputy John Brady: On the basis of the statement made by the Minister when announcing this change a number of weeks ago, it seemed to be a positive story, so much so that Fianna Fáil was very quick to jump in and claim credit for it� 594 3 May 2018 03/05/2018A01100Deputy Willie O’Dea: We had published a Bill� 03/05/2018A01200Deputy John Brady: On reading the details and having listened to the Minister, it is clear that the problems experienced by people locked into JobPath will continue� We know that underemployed persons are being actively targeted to join the JobPath programme� We are being told that people locked into JobPath can participate in Tús and community employment schemes, but they will be treated in the same way as someone in a part-time job� It does not deal with the mandatory nature of JobPath, which is the crux of the problem� We have people participating in Tús and community employment schemes, which is welcome, but they will have to engage in two separate schemes� 03/05/2018A01300Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): I thank the Deputy� 03/05/2018A01400Deputy John Brady: I have another question� Obviously someone participating in a com- munity employment scheme can avail of education to upskill� People are being actively target- ed by JobPath to enter full-time employment as per the terms of reference; that is what they are supposed to be doing� What happens to a person who is engaged in an education course under a community employment scheme for a major award?
There will be pressure from JobPath on that individual to leave the community employment scheme and enter full-time employment� What provisions are being made in that regard?
03/05/2018B00200Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): I do not like to interrupt, but the Deputy will have another minute in which to ask a question� 03/05/2018B00300Deputy Regina Doherty: I thank the Deputies for their questions� I have not seen Deputy Willie O’Dea’s Bill, but I know the gist of what he wants to achieve� I thank him for bringing it forward� It is not that I am giving him all of the credit, but, as I have stated here a number of times, I am not the only person who can come up with a good idea and I am very happy to listen to anybody who comes up with good ideas and give credit for them� This was something that needed to be done and the timing was just right� I acknowledge the work the Deputy has done in that regard� While there are always anecdotes that will give the lie to something, the current JobPath programme is mindful of a person’s circumstances� For example, if a person had caring duties in the morning, his or her JobPath appointment would have been made for the afternoon and this should be no different� If I thought people were being forced to come in at 9 a�m� when it did not suit them, as opposed to coming in at 10�30 a�m�, I would have a big concern, but that is not the reality� The reality is that we work with people who come voluntarily to claim as job- seekers and make a commitment to work and engage with the State’s services to either undergo training or work.
I expect JobPath to continue to be as flexible as it is with other clients and make arrangements for the scheduling of appointments and activities outside people’s commu- nity employment scheme arrangements� 03/05/2018B00400Deputy Willie O’Dea: I thank the Minister for her comments� I am not claiming all of the credit but merely adverting to the fact that we published a Bill� The terms of our Bill did not envisage people being forced to participate in two schemes at the same time, although I can see arguments for and against� What worries me slightly in the Minister’s response is her aspira- tion that there will be flexibility and so on.
That needs to be firmly tied down before 1 June because I can envisage situations, particularly in the education area, as mentioned by Deputy John Brady, where there could be conflict.
595 Dáil Éireann 03/05/2018B00500Deputy John Brady: I would like to get an answer to my original question� With no dis- respect, the Minister is a little removed from the reality of the so-called flexibility she says JobPath advisers are giving to people, particularly the underemployed, as she likes to describe them� There are many examples such as teachers engaged in part-time work who the Minister’s predecessor said needed to give up the hope of finding their ideal job and take up any job.
There are people living in rural areas who are being told that if they do not come in on a Tuesday or Wednesday morning, their payment will be stopped� Correspondence sent in by participants has been ignored, including correspondence stating the person will willingly engage with Job- Path but that he or she has no access to public transport and, therefore, no way of getting to the meeting� Correspondence has been ignored and penalties imposed� The reality is that there is no flexibility whatsoever.
Will the top-up payments under the community employment scheme and Tús apply in these instances?

03/05/2018B00600Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): The time is up� 03/05/2018B00700Deputy John Brady: The Minister needs to deal more comprehensively with the issue of flexibility.

There is simply no flexibility and this is not the solution.
It is not Deputy Willie O’Dea’s Bill----- 03/05/2018B01000Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Please, Deputy� 03/05/2018B01100Deputy John Brady: The reality is that over 1,500 places on community employment schemes have not been filled because of the creation of JobPath.

03/05/2018B01200Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Does the Deputy have any respect for the Chair?

Will he, please, conclude?


03/05/2018B01300Deputy John Brady: We know that the number of referrals to the local employment service has been down consistently across the State since the formation of JobPath� That is the reality and the Minister is trying to mask the figures.

03/05/2018B01400Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): I have been more than flexible.
The Deputy has taken up three and a half minutes� In fairness, there are guidelines set down which have to be adhered to� If I do not follow them, some of the Deputy’s colleagues will not get to ask their questions� I am being very strict on time� It is not that I want to giving out to the Deputy, but will he, please, stick to the time guidelines?
03/05/2018B01500Deputy Regina Doherty: I will answer Deputy John Brady first as I missed his questions the last time� I am constantly intrigued by his choice of words - “actively being targeted”, “claimed” or “picked on”� When somebody loses his or her job and comes to us to sign up as a jobseeker and receive a payment of €198 every week, he or she signs a claim form, as well as a commitment form to work with the arms of the State to either retrain or gain work experience to get back into the workplace in order that he or she will only be on the jobseeker’s payment for the shortest time possible� No one is forced to do anything� When people claim a jobseeker’s payment, they come to the State and say, “I have not got a job and will take all and any help I can be given to help me to get a job�” The language Deputy John Brady uses makes it sound like that we are the Gestapo, pulling people out of their houses on a Tuesday and forcing them to work when they do not want to do so� If somebody does not want to work, he or she does not have to claim a jobseeker’s payment.
There are tens of thousands of qualified adults who are not claiming jobseeker’s payments because they are not looking for work� 596 3 May 2018 03/05/2018B01600Deputy John Brady: The problem is that the focus is solely on getting people into work� It is not flexible enough.

03/05/2018B01700Deputy Regina Doherty: The people who claim and commit to working with the arms of the State are looking for work and want help� To answer Deputy Willie O’Dea, the programme is entirely flexible.
It is not something that is to be newly introduced because it is already in place� To satisfy the Deputy’s curiosity and my own, I will ensure both providers will continue to be flexible with people who take up com- munity employment scheme and Tús places� Of course, anyone who takes up such a placement will receive the top-up payment� They are the rules� 03/05/2018B01800Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Even though we had 13 minutes available to deal with those questions, we have gone way over time� To be fair to all Members, I cannot allow that to continue� 03/05/2018B01850Food Poverty 03/05/2018B019003� Deputy Willie O’Dea asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection her views on the fact that one in three calls to an organisation (details supplied) are about food poverty; her plans to address poverty and social exclusion; and if she will make a statement on the matter� [19263/18] 03/05/2018B02000Deputy Willie O’Dea: There is a lot of evidence, both anecdotal and official, that food poverty is still widespread in the community� I want to ascertain whether the Government has given any thought to targeting this problem in the forthcoming budgetary measures� 03/05/2018B02100Deputy Regina Doherty: I express my admiration for the work of the wonderful organi- sation that is the Society of St� Vincent de Paul in assisting vulnerable persons the length and breadth of the country� My Department works very closely with it in addressing many issues that affect vulnerable persons, including food poverty� The Deputy may not be aware that my Department administers the Fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived, FEAD, which has been rolled out to all EU countries and provides food and basic consumer products for people most at risk� My Department’s FEAD budget for this year is €8 million, of which €4�5 million has been allocated to ongoing food distribution, with the remainder allocated to the distribution of material assistance in the areas of homelessness, school kits for children who need them
 and new migrants who may have little more than the clothes on their backs when they arrive� In 2017, through a network of charitable partnership organisations, the Department distrib- uted almost 1,000 tonnes of food to over 80,000 people in communities throughout the country, either in the form of food parcels or as meals prepared by charitable organisations� In 2017 FEAD assisted 26 Society of St� Vincent de Paul conferences or regions through the provi- sion of food from the three FoodCloud Hubs depots in Tallaght, Cork and Galway� I had the privilege recently of visiting the FoodCloud Hubs� It is an initiative which was started by two wonderful women and which is going a bomb� I wish them well with it� The total value of food collected and distributed by the FoodCloud Hubs was in excess of €650,000, on top of the €8 million we spend, and consisted of 205 tonnes across 23 food product ranges that are available 597 through the FEAD programme� Dáil Éireann In addition, the school meals programme provides funding to provide a breakfast for all children and lunch for up to 90% of children attending DEIS schools for the entire school year from September to June.
For the first time in many years, breakfasts are also available to some schools outside DEIS allocations� Funding towards the cost of providing school meals is being provided for over 1,580 schools and other organisations, supporting over 248,000 children, at a cost of some €54 million in 2018� It is fair to say we are very well aware that people are in situations where they are being deprived of basic food standards.
We have taken this issue seriously and significantly resourced measures to ensure we will address their needs� 03/05/2018B02300Deputy Willie O’Dea: I am, of course, aware of the FEAD programme� Let us be real- istic, however, and acknowledge that it is a drop in the ocean� I am also, of course, aware of the school meals programme� Nevertheless, in a recent analysis the Society of St� Vincent de Paul indicated that the number of calls it was receiving had risen since last year and that one in three was related to food poverty� For people who depend on social welfare or who are in low-income jobs, there is no flexibility in the cost of utilities, housing, education.
They have no control over those costs and must meet them� That means the only discretion they have is on how much they spend on food� There is widespread evidence that people are cutting back on food� The problem is still widespread, despite the recent economic growth� Has the Govern- ment considered more comprehensive targeting of food poverty, particularly among children?
03/05/2018C00200Deputy Regina Doherty: The primary role of the Department, through social welfare in- come supports, is to sustain an adequate standard of living for the people we serve and to prevent poverty, including food poverty� The Irish social welfare system is regarded as quite successful in that role� In 2016, the most recent year for which we have data, the social transfers reduced the at risk of poverty rate from 33�6% to 16�5%� That represents a poverty reduction of over 51% of the population affected� I know what the Deputy is saying but we can only strive through programmes such as the social inclusion programme and the national anti-poverty strategy to ensure that if there are ar- eas and particular measures that need to be implemented or areas that we are missing, they are identified and addressed.
While I appreciate the Society of St. Vincent de Paul’s survey results which were released some weeks ago, and while I do not doubt them for a second, it did not qualify the amount of support that it receives from the State� The Society of St� Vincent de Paul tells me that it is exceptionally grateful for the support it receives� Regardless of who was in my position, if we had more money to give it, we would do so because of the value of the services and support it offers� Through the national inclusion strategy and the national anti-poverty strategy, which are ongoing, I will look at and review the funding mechanisms we provide� What we are doing is working and we need to continue it� 03/05/2018C00300Deputy Willie O’Dea: The school meals programme is an example of targeting in this area� Will the Government consider its extension?
It deals with lack of food and ensures that the food provided to children is nutritious and healthy� Is the Minister aware of the recent study undertaken by the Vincentian Partnership for So- cial Justice which focused on the higher cost of having a teenager?

The Minister will probably 598 3 May 2018 be aware of this personally.

There is plenty of anecdotal and official evidence that this is an area which would benefit from special consideration.
I take it from the Minister’s response that she will examine the total social welfare allocation to see if there can be some specific targeting on this area� 03/05/2018C00400Deputy Regina Doherty: I will speak about the school meals programme in a moment, as we will make an announcement on it in coming weeks� I hope to see it extended and expanded, but I do not get to choose the list of schools� It is provided by the Department of Education and Skills� We just deliver on it and provide the funds� I hope and expect that it will be expanded� I have a couple of those teenagers at home in my own house and I know exactly what the Deputy speaks of� I did see the report by the Vincentian Partnership for Social Justice� I was aware of the matter from last year’s budget� I would ask the Deputy not to be smart� When we increased the qualified child increase, QCI, I would have loved to have been able to say that it would be X amount for those under 12 years and Y amount for those over 12 years, but there was not a huge amount to give away� I would like to see if we can address that this year as no one can argue that it costs more to feed, clothe and house a teenager than a smaller person� We do need to address that this year, and with the Deputy’s help and that of the House, I hope we will be able to do it� 03/05/2018C00450Child Benefit Eligibility 03/05/2018C005004� Deputy Michael Lowry asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protec- tion if child benefit payments will be extended to include all children in full-time education up to 22 years of age in line with the increase for qualified children paid on social welfare pay- ments; and if she will make a statement on the matter� [19265/18] 03/05/2018C00600Deputy Michael Lowry: Will the Minister make a decision to extend child benefit pay- ments to include all children in full-time education?
This would be in line with the increase for qualified children paid on social welfare entitlements.

03/05/2018C00700(Deputy Regina Doherty): Child benefit is a monthly payment made to families with chil- dren in respect of all qualified children up to the age of 16 years.

The payment continues to be paid in respect of children up to their 18th birthday who are in full-time second level education or who have a disability.
Child benefit is paid to 627,790 families in respect of more than 1.2 million children, with an estimated expenditure of more than €2 billion in 2018� Given the universality of child benefit, it is not a payment which lends itself to a targeted approach, and the considerable costs associated with any adjustment to the payment can result in benefits be- ing spread very thinly rather than making a difference where there is most need� The Deputy’s proposal, to extend entitlement to parents to include all children in full-time education up to 22 years of age in line with the increase for qualified children paid on social welfare payments, would not be a targeted approach� Families on low incomes can avail of a number of social welfare schemes that support chil- dren in full-time education until 22 years, including the increase for a qualified child, IQCs, with primary social welfare payments, the working family payment, WFP, for low-paid em- ployees with children, and the back to school clothing and footwear allowance for low income families, paid at the full-time second level education rate� These schemes provide targeted as- sistance that is directly linked to household income and thereby support low-income families 599 with older children participating in full-time education� Dáil Éireann For parents who have children in third level education, the student grant scheme SUSI is the main financial support for students.
There is also detailed information on the range of grants and funds for students in further and higher education on the website www.studentfinance.ie, including the student assistance fund� If we were to introduce further supports for families and students at second level, it would be directly aimed at those who most needed it� Given all of the above, I have no plans to ex- tend entitlement to child benefit to parents to include all children in full-time education up to 22 years� 03/05/2018C00800Deputy Michael Lowry: While I understand the logic and rationale behind the Minister’s response and the limitations on resources available to her Department, she should bear in mind that there was a change to child benefit in January 2010 where it was no longer automatically paid to children between 16 and 18 years.
Child benefit is payable to parents or guardians of children between 16 and 18 years only if the child is in full-time education or has a disability� Child benefit is discontinued on the child’s 18th birthday even where he or she is still in full- time education.
Many children now start primary school at five years and they also undertake transition year at second level� The shift in the starting age means that in the future, secondary school pupils will increasingly be 19 or 20 years when they complete their leaving certificate.
Leaving certificate year is an expensive year for parents with leaving certificate examination fees, the CAO application fees and deposits for college accommodation which can cost between €300 and €600� This should be looked at� 11 o’clock 03/05/2018C00900Deputy Regina Doherty: The Deputy is correct that in 2009 the budget reduced the age for eligibility for child benefit from 19 years to less than 18 years for those who remain in sec- ondary school, and that children are starting school a little older and, unlike when we were children, they are doing transition year and so are doing their leaving certificate when they are 18 years and over.
Given the universality of child benefit, extending the payment to include children of 18 years and over at secondary school would not be a targeted approach.
The adoption of such a proposal would have significant cost implica- tions and would not change the poverty indicators of which we spoke earlier� Families on low incomes are the people who we are genuinely trying to assist to bring them to a level where they have a certain quality and standard of life� There are a number of provisions in social welfare schemes, to which I have referred, that support children in full-time education, even when they pass 18 years, and in many cases up to 22 years.
There is the increase in the qualified child with the primary social welfare payment, the working family payment for low-paid employees with children, and the back to school clothing allowances.
I am satisfied that they are the direct measures that provide assistance to the people who need them rather than increasing or extend- ing universal payments� Deputy Michael Lowry: I acknowledge those initiatives but extending child benefit would provide vital financial assistance for parents of children still in full-time education.

SUSI pro- vides financial assistance to those entering third level education.
This assistance is based on a family’s gross income� Even in the case of those in receipt of SUSI grants, parents must still provide considerable financial assistance to children attending college.

For anyone who is not in receipt of a SUSI grant, it will cost the families between €10,000 and €12,000 per year to put a child through college.
All I am saying is that if child benefit was payable for dependent children in full-time education, it would greatly assist families in coping with the cost of putting 600 3 May 2018 their children through college� I appreciate the other initiatives outlined by the Minister and I acknowledge that they assist and support families in those circumstances� 03/05/2018D00200Deputy Regina Doherty: Better Outcomes Brighter Futures is a framework and a national policy being developed by my colleague in the Department of Children and Youth Affairs� It is a collaborative report among different Departments, including my Department and the Depart- ment of Education and Skills.
We might be able to do some analysis of the exact specifics the Deputy is looking at within the confines of that interaction.
In an attempt to be honest not just to the Deputy but the House, if I have extra money in this area, my priority is to bring the 130,000 or so children who live in consistent poverty out of consistent poverty as opposed to helping middle class families, and I do not mean to be mean about that� When we are looking at our social transfers, we must look at the most vulnerable people to make sure we actually give them a much larger lift in their living standards as opposed to just slightly improving other people’s living standards� However, I will ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to have a look at the actual number of people and the amount of money it would cost� We might come back to the Deputy and have a further discussion� 03/05/2018D00250Departmental Records 03/05/2018D003005� Deputy Catherine Murphy asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Pro- tection the way in which a process to migrate up to 4 million biographic and face biometric records from the legacy system database to a new solution will be carried out as per a request for tenders of 20 April 2018 for the supply of facial image matching software by her Depart- ment; if her Department collects facial recognition data; and if she will make a statement on the matter� [19484/18] 03/05/2018D00400Deputy Catherine Murphy: This question relates to the tender process for biometric facial imaging systems� The tenders were requested up to 20 April so the Minister will have received them.
What I am trying to find out, and I received replies earlier in the week which were disap- pointing and did not address that issue, is why the Department would seek tenders for that� I am confused about whether the Department is using facial imaging� The Minister might tell me about the current situation and what this tender is intended to do� 03/05/2018D00500Deputy Regina Doherty: The use of facial matching technology has been employed by my Department for a number of years� What is proposed in this competitive tender process is a continuation and upgrade of this existing technology and related processes� It is important to note that the Department does not ask for or collect biometric data from its customers such as fingerprints, retinal scans or any other items that could be listed as biometric data.
Neither does it use advanced facial mapping cameras when taking the photo as part of the SAFE 2 registration process� The digital photograph taken during the SAFE registration process is simply matched and stored� The software compares photographs by converting the image into an arithmetic template based on facial characteristics� My understanding is that the distance between someone’s nose and eyes or the freckle on their left cheek are made into an algorithm and a template based on their facial characteristics� The database mentioned in the tender refers to a dedicated facial matching server, which is hosted in a secure site within the Department� Facial templates are loaded to a dedicated facial matcher server� Any migration undertaken will be done within this framework and will apply the relevant conventions related to data security� 601 Dáil Éireann As with all technology, and this answers the question about why we are making a change now, this software type has been upgraded considerably since the original procurement years ago with the latest versions having improved capability, accuracy and speed� The upgraded new software will simply replace the existing software, including the existing arithmetic tem- plates� While 3�25 million Irish people have been issued with public services cards, an indica- tive figure of up to 4 million records was used in the request for tender to allow any prospective tenderer to plan for this exercise should the need for the required cards increase over time� I hope this clarifies the matter for the Deputy.
03/05/2018D00600Deputy Catherine Murphy: The Department is moving to biometric data in terms of facial imaging� Will the Minister outline whether the Department will be seeking permission for the approximately 100,000 people whose photographs it has?

Will they be used to test the new sys- tem?

Is the Department migrating those into the new system?

Does that have implications in terms of data protection legislation?
In August 2017, the Minister tweeted that the Department does not collect facial recognition data� It collects photographs� Is it intended to migrate those photographs to this new system?

What is this tender really about in the longer term?

If I was going to tender for this, I would specifically try to tick off the things for which the Minister is looking� What is she looking for?

If I was going to tender for this, what would I be tendering for and what will the Department use it for?
The Minister said it will be held in a secure site� Will it be shared with any other Department?

Can we have confidence that this would be the case into the future?
03/05/2018D00700Deputy Regina Doherty: I suppose it is a case of be careful what you tweet because it comes back to haunt you� The tweet still stands� We do not collect biometric data� We col- lect and store photographs� If someone has a public services card, they come in and get their photograph taken, we store that photograph and it gets put on the person’s card� It is as benign as that� The facial recognition technology we currently employ and have been using for years has been enhanced considerably, as technology has been enhanced during the six years since we bought it� Most versions in existence today have much improved matching capability, ac- curacy and speed compared to the software we currently use� We are not changing the process we use or the legislation governing that process� All we are doing is upgrading the software we use in the SAFE 2 registration process� The main objective of this procurement is to upgrade the algorithm we employ and to ensure that when a public services card needs to be renewed or replaced, it can be undertaken securely to prevent any error in the allocation� A further and important by-product of its ability is to detect any instances of potential identity or suspected social welfare fraud� Literally, that is all this tender is� It is just about upgrading the software we currently use, which is six years old� 03/05/2018D00800Deputy Catherine Murphy: Could the Minister define SAFE 2?
When the Department buys this new software, in ten years’ time and if all 4 million records are kept, what format will they be kept in?
03/05/2018D00900Deputy Regina Doherty: It will be exactly the same as it is today� When someone got their photograph taken a number of years ago, that photograph was stored on a secure data server� If someone gets their photograph taken next Tuesday, we will keep the photograph in the same se- cure server in the same format we have always used� What we are tendering for is the software that drives the algorithm, which is the facial mapping recognition programme we use� We are all probably aware that we are not considering a photograph as biometric data� It is just a pho- tograph� The software for which we are tendering is an upgrade of the software we currently use, which produces an algorithm of a person’s face that we then use to see if we can match that 602 3 May 2018 person’s photograph with the photographs we store for all of the other 3�2 million people who have applied for a public services card� That is the only thing for which we are tendering� The SAFE 2 registration process that is governed by legislation since 2012 has not changed and will not change� The only thing we are proposing to do is tender for a new and more accurate and up-to-date version of the software we currently use� 03/05/2018E00050Other Questions 03/05/2018E00100Citizens Information Services 03/05/2018E002006� Deputy John Curran asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection if the restructuring of MABS and CIS will be reviewed; if she is satisfied that the new structure of regional boards represents the best way forward in terms of service delivery to local com- munities and good governance; and if she will make a statement on the matter� [19167/18] 03/05/2018E00300Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): This question is in the name of Deputy John Curran but he has given permission to Deputy O’Dea to put it to the Minister� I presume that is in order� 03/05/2018E00400Deputy Willie O’Dea: I apologise for the absence of my colleague, Deputy Curran� As the Acting Chairman knows, Deputy Curran is Chairman of the Joint
 Committee on Employment Affairs and Social Protection, which is sitting now, at the same time as questions on social pro- tection in the Dáil� Why the two have clashed, I do not know� The question is self-explanatory� 03/05/2018E00500Deputy Regina Doherty: I thank Deputy O’Dea, and I thank Deputy Curran for the ques- tion� The executive of the Citizens Information Board, CIB, is in the process of implementing the decision of the board to reorganise the governance arrangements of the 93 individual local com- pany boards, comprising 42 citizens information services and 51 Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, companies, to create a new regionally based 16-company model comprising eight citizens information services and eight MABS companies� The CIB is not planning to review the decision of the statutorily appointed board� The aim of the change is to improve the effectiveness of the control environment, financial management and governance of the CIS and MABS networks, which are 100% State funded� The change is about improving the governance framework, focusing on front-line service deliv- ery to citizens, improving the consistency and quality of service delivery and, where possible, extending services for those who need them� We all know there are thousands of unfortunate people who use this valuable service and continue to need it� I believe I stated on previous occasions that I am very satisfied that the board of CIB made its important decision of February 2017 in the best interest of the citizens it serves� The first phase of the implementation process has seen the establishment of six new compa- nies, namely three citizens information services and three MABS companies, in south Dublin, in north Leinster, comprising Longford, Louth, Meath, Westmeath and Kildare, and in south Munster, comprising Cork and Kerry� 603 Dáil Éireann All staff, assets and liabilities of the 38 local companies involved in this phase have been transferred to the six new companies� There
 has been no change to service delivery and no reduction in staffing, nor has there been, or will there be any diminution of services for clients.
The remaining 55 companies will transfer into the five new citizens information services and five new MABS companies as they are established, and it is envisaged that the next phase of transfer will be completed before the end of 2018.
I hope this clarifies the matter for the Deputy� 03/05/2018E00600Deputy Willie O’Dea: As the Minister will be aware, among the volunteers, people at the coalface or the people providing the service there is still widespread opposition to this change� People are in constant contact with us about it� The Minister will also be aware that the Dáil voted by a majority of two to one against this� The Joint Committee on Employment Affairs and Social Protection, which includes a number of Members on the Government side, voted unanimously against what is being done� I do not want to rehash all the arguments we engaged in but the Minister said in the course of various debates on the matter that what was preventing her from interfering in any way with the decision of the CIB was the advice of the Attorney General that she did not have the power to do so� Is that the only reason she could not intervene?
If she had had the power, would she have intervened to stop this process?

03/05/2018E00700Deputy Regina Doherty: The advice from the Attorney General is that I do not have the power, and neither would the Deputy if he were the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection� I am quite happy to take the advice� To answer that Deputy’s question, the advice is not the only reason.
I have said before and say again for the record that I am satisfied the board of the CIB, which made its important decision in February 2017, did so in the best interest of the citizens it serves� The CIB established an advisory group to assist with the transition to the new governance models� Information sessions have been held for the chairpersons of the local services, providing opportunities for them to seek clarification on the process of transfers to the new regional companies and the winding up of the existing companies� The CIB has assured me, as it has assured all its clients, members and the Committee on Employment Affairs and Social Protection, that there will be no job losses, diminution of exist- ing services or closures of services� Most important, there will be no disruption to services� The rationale for CIB’s decision is to improve governance arrangements in accordance with the code of practice on the governance of State bodies and to meet the requirements of the Comp- troller and Auditor General, which it absolutely has to meet� The six new regional companies were established on 16 April 2018, in north Leinster, south Munster and south Dublin� The recruitment of the directors for these new regional companies is complete.
Approximately half of the positions have been filled by applicants who served as local company board members� Regional managers have also been appointed� Two of the ap- pointees were formerly employed by MABS companies� Unite, the union, has confirmed to me that its members in MABS companies had voted in favour of the transfer in their recent ballot.
SIPTU had previously confirmed the same for all its members in citizens information services� I cannot stress enough how thorough the process has been� One will never make 100% of people happy but the vast majority of people are happy� 03/05/2018E00800Deputy Willie O’Dea: The Minister says there have not been any job losses� Has there 604 3 May 2018 been any loss of volunteers?

Is she happy that, under the new structure, both schemes will at- tract the same number of volunteers as heretofore?
All the information coming to me suggests the precise opposite� Could the Minister confirm the cost structure of the new organisation?

Will it enable the State to provide the same service more efficiently and cheaply or will it cost more?

03/05/2018E00900Deputy Regina Doherty: Volunteers come and go in all organisations so one could not state one has lost volunteers for the specific reason outlined.
I would be very surprised if the reasons people ebb and flow between voluntary and charitable organisations were collated.
I had the privilege of speaking to probably 700 volunteers in Kilmainham last year� It is an annual day to reward, respect and congratulate the volunteers of CIB and MABS from around the country� They come to the event, are entertained and enjoy each other’s company while having some food and drink� We socialise with them and thank them for volunteering� Not one person told me that day that he or she was unhappy� The volunteers were in high spirits� They were enjoying themselves and were very appreciative of the management of CIB in recognising the value of their contribution� To answer the Deputy’s question, I hope to increase, not decrease, the funding� I am not seeking to take money away from the CIB� 03/05/2018E01000Deputy Willie O’Dea: It will cost more to provide the same service� 03/05/2018E01100Deputy Regina Doherty: We have increased funding for it this year so it can provide valu- able services to our deaf community.
If I can find more money to provide more services to the community, through such a well-run, well-organised and well-governed State body, that is what I will do.

I have every confidence in the management and new structure of this organisation.
03/05/2018E01200Labour Activation Programmes 03/05/2018E013007� Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protec- tion the number of participants on Tús and the rural social scheme in 2017; the number of places on both schemes for which a financial provision has been made in 2018; and if she will make a statement on the matter� [19279/18] 03/05/2018E01400Deputy Brendan Smith: As the Minister knows, there are many positive dimensions to both Tús and the rural social scheme in that they provide worthwhile employment opportuni- ties for many who, unfortunately, are not in a position to get a job in the labour market� Fur- thermore, they provide a great service to local communities by providing new facilities and enhancing and maintaining existing facilities� I sincerely hope that, in the Estimates this year, the Minister can ensure anybody eligible to participate in either scheme is not deprived of the opportunity to do so� 03/05/2018E01500Deputy Regina Doherty: Jesus, I hope we would never deprive anybody of the opportunity to participate on an activation course supplied by the State� The problem, and the reason I made the changes alluded to by the Deputy’s colleague a couple of weeks ago, was that Tús and the community employment, CE, companies were telling me they were finding it difficult to fill their courses� It is certainly not because we are refusing people� 605 Dáil Éireann As the Deputy may be aware, almost €840 million is being provided to be spent on working- age employment supports provided by the Department� It is totally recognised by the Govern- ment and probably by everybody in this House that work schemes such as Tús and CE are such positive initiatives� They enable the long-term unemployed to make a contribution to their communities while up-skilling themselves and making themselves familiar in a particular work environment� As we all have seen, every single town and village in the country has a CE scheme� We know exactly not only how communities benefit from the
 work done on the schemes but also the huge benefit to the participants.
They participate for a variety of reasons.
Some are genu- inely looking for activation, training and employment while others genuinely just want to give back to their community, be busy, be involved and be socially included� To answer the Deputy’s question specifically, Tús is delivered through 47 implementing bodies, or local development companies, and Údarás na Gaeltachta� At the end of December 2017, there were 6,409 participants on the Tús programme� The 2018 budget Estimate for Tús is just over €100 million� With the ongoing reductions in the numbers on the live register, which I hope will continue, it is necessary to ensure the number and nature of activation schemes, in addition to the conditions governing participation on them, continue to be appropriate to the people we are serving� Deputies on all sides of this House are fully aware of the positive ben- efits of the rural social scheme, RSS, which is a supplementary income scheme for farmers and fishermen.
The complete success of that scheme is recognised.

Of all our schemes, that is the one that is oversubscribed� I am very pleased to be able to add 250 places to that particular scheme.

They were allocated several weeks ago, and they are currently being filled.
03/05/2018F00200Deputy Brendan Smith: I welcome the fact there is an increase in the number to ensure that everybody who is eligible to participate may do so� The six-year participation limit for the rural social scheme also needs to be looked at in the future� Some people are coming to an age, or are at an age, at which they will not get a job in the labour market� I suggest that they should be eligible for another year or so� If that eligibility could be changed, it would ensure that people do not have to go onto jobseeker’s benefits in advance of pension payment, which is very important� It would also be worthwhile if there was a training element to the rural social scheme� There is very good work going on in my own county, where projects like the restoration of old walls of churches or community halls have been taken on� On its own initiative, the local group has added a training element to the work� It is very important to improve the eligibility criteria regarding the time limit on participation and to have a training element� In some places in rural Ireland people have to travel a distance to participate in a scheme� At the moment, the top-up added to what a person would receive in social welfare payments is something like €22 or €24� At times, that may be used up in travel� Furthermore, we do not want to have one or two people working on their own in isolation� One of the aims of the rural social scheme was to combat rural isolation� It is good when there are a half a dozen or eight people working together, rather than a person in a parish on his or her own doing the job, which would be self-defeating� I would appreciate if the travel element could be looked at� 03/05/2018F00300Deputy Regina Doherty: I am a little confused� The extra top-up payment of €22 is for community employment, CE, and Tús participants� The RSS is an entirely different scheme, and it is genuinely an income support for farmers and fisherman.
The governance of both of 606 3 May 2018 the schemes is not the same� If I can concentrate on the RSS for a second, prior to 1 February 2017, a participant on the RSS could spend his or her entire working life on the scheme� This resulted in a lack of turnover of places for people� There were not enough places for all the eligible people to be able to come onto the scheme and stay on it, which resulted in there being no ebb and flow.
There were people who were outside the scope of the scheme whom we were not helping.

Additional places obviously fix that.
However, because of this, perhaps 50% of the RSS participants have been on the scheme for in excess of ten years� As a result, there were no real new opportunities for people, other than the extra few places that were awarded every year� From 1 February 2017, we changed it so that a person had to be over 25 to be on the scheme� The change acknowledged that numerous other activation options were available for young people to counteract or to compensate those under 25 who were effectively being excluded� The entry of people aged 25 and over as participants in that scheme was introduced on 1 Febru- ary 2017� People who were on the scheme beforehand obviously got to stay on it� 03/05/2018F00400Deputy Brendan Smith: I thank the Minister for her reply� She might look again at the idea of adding a training element to the scheme� Perhaps that can be enhanced or made a spe- cific requirement.
03/05/2018F00500Deputy Regina Doherty: Does the Deputy mean in the RSS?
03/05/2018F00600Deputy Brendan Smith: Yes, I think so� 03/05/2018F00700Deputy Regina Doherty: There is no training in RSS whatsoever� It is an income support that allows people to be socially included� 03/05/2018F00800Deputy Brendan Smith: I will give the Minister an example� In my own county there is a scheme whose supervisor is John Beglan, who is an extremely hardworking and committed man� In other communities local facilities have been enhanced� In my own county, some of the smaller churches had their grounds, boundary walls, etc�, enhanced� There was an element of building instruction training� 03/05/2018F00900Deputy Regina Doherty: Would the Deputy like to see that in the RSS?
03/05/2018F01000Deputy Brendan Smith: Yes, I think that would enhance the scheme� It would also give the participants better opportunities to get jobs locally when they finish on the scheme, if they wish to seek another employment opportunity, perhaps in the construction sector� I think it is important to look at the training element, if possible� 03/05/2018F01100Deputy Regina Doherty: I am sorry� I did not mean to interrupt the Deputy, but I just want- ed to be 100% sure that I knew what he meant� There is no such training element in the RSS at the moment, because when it was established, I think by one of the Deputy’s colleagues, it was specifically intended to address low-income people in the two particular sectors of farming and fishing.
It aimed to use the skills of its beneficiaries, most of whom were men, to improve local areas just as the Deputy has described, by refurbishing walls, bridges or church grounds in their own communities� Never say never� Let us have a look at all the schemes and see if there are any improvements that could be made to all or some of them� 607 Dáil Éireann 03/05/2018F01200Poverty Impact Assessment 03/05/2018F013008� Deputy Thomas P. Broughan asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection if she will report on the National Action Plan for Social Inclusion 2018-2021; if she will report on the achievements of the National Action Plan for Social Inclusion 2015-2017; the areas which require further resources and improvements in the context of poverty proofing budget 2019; and if she will make a statement on the matter� [18666/18] 03/05/2018F01400Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: Last year was the 20th anniversary of our first national poverty strategy, introduced by the Minister’s predecessor, Proinsias de Rossa, when he was Minister for Social Welfare� The Minister has had a consultation on the new plan for 2018 to 2021� How does she evaluate the updated National Action Plan for Social Inclusion 2015-2017, and what does she expect to feature in the new plan, given that 750,000 people are still living in consistent poverty?
03/05/2018F01500Deputy Regina Doherty: It is fair to say that tackling poverty remains a fundamental aspi- ration of all of us, regardless of the Department we serve in� The programme for Government includes a firm commitment to develop a new integrated framework for social inclusion to tackle inequality and poverty� This will be a successor to the National Action Plan for Social Inclusion the Deputy has referred to, which ran from 2007 to 2016, and its 2015 to 2017 update, which was included in this year’s analysis� The Deputy is right to say that my Department has started preparations for the new four-year plan for the period from 2018 to 2021� Like its predecessor, the plan will have a whole-of- Government approach that aims to improve outcomes for the vulnerable and marginalised in Irish society, while recognising a shared responsibility across Government to implement ac- tions to achieve the overall aims� The theme of the new plan is one of active inclusion, which will enable every citizen, notably the most disadvantaged, to fully participate in society, which includes having a job if that is what they want� The primary focus will be the reduction of the rate of consistent poverty, which in 2016 was 8�3%� This will be achieved through a three- pronged approach; by supporting incomes through as high a level of employment as possible and encouraging and assisting people to enter the workforce; by setting targets for the level of relevant welfare payments designed to reduce relative poverty among those who cannot work or cannot find work; and by improving access to quality services such as health, education, childcare, training, housing, community supports and all of the other activities that wrap around a person to enable him or her to have as good a quality of life as he or she can, in order to mini- mise deprivation for all groups, particularly those who are on relatively low incomes� My Department reports on the progress of actions under the National Action Plan for Social Inclusion through our annual
 progress reports and the annual social inclusion monitor� The progress report for 2015-2016 is scheduled for publication before the summer, with the 2017 progress report due to be published by the end of this year� I will get it to Deputy Broughan as soon as I can� I want to get the 2017 data as quickly as I can, because there is no point in talking about 2015 or 2016 when the economy and the environment in Irish society have changed� I want to see what benefit that has provided to the most vulnerable in society so that I know what we collectively have to do to provide for a better quality of life in the 2019 budget� Additional information not given on the floor of the House The 2016 social inclusion monitor will be finalised by the end of May and will report on 608 3 May 2018 progress against a range of poverty targets based on data from the most recent EU survey on income and living conditions� As part of the preparation for the annual budget process, the Department of Finance pub- lishes the ex-ante social impact assessment of illustrative budgetary measures, including in- come tax, universal social charge, USC, and social welfare, prepared for the tax strategy group� In the run-up to the budget, my Department undertakes social impact assessments of the main proposed welfare and direct tax budgetary policies in order to estimate the likely distributive effects of these policies on household income� Shortly after the budget is agreed, my Depart- ment publishes the social impact assessment of the main welfare and tax measures which have been agreed� In addition, in the months preceding the budget and immediately afterwards, there is exten- sive engagement at ministerial and departmental level with community and voluntary groups� This includes the pre-budget forum and post-budget briefing.
This represents an important consultative dimension to the social impact assessment, which helps our understanding of the qualitative impact of policy� 03/05/2018F01600Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: The bottom line is that we are definitely not experiencing an inclusive recovery in the economy after the decade of austerity� The statistics are still pretty frightening� The poverty focus 2018 report tells us that over 100,000 working people are at risk of poverty, which is an astonishing statistic, as Social Justice Ireland points out� Moreover, 16�5% of the population, roughly one in six, is surviving on an income below the poverty line� Some 780,000 people are living in poverty, and 26% of those are children� Deputy Doherty is now the Minister responsible� We still have the sixth highest rate of jobless households in the EU� The Minister mentioned the 8�3% target, but I note that we did have a target of reducing the rate of consistent poverty down to 4% by 2016, and then 2% by 2020� Now the Minister has seemingly changed that, and the target has been doubled to 4%� There is much work to be done there.
A significant cohort of our fellow citizens are struggling and have very difficult lives.

03/05/2018G00200Deputy Regina Doherty: The Deputy is dead right that there is no denying the facts� There is no dressing them up or hiding them� There are far too many people in this country who do not have a decent standard of living.

The role of the Department is twofold.
The first is to sup- port people through the working family payment and the changes that I can and have already made to that scheme to help people to have a minimum standard of living� I hope to be able to improve that further when money allows� More importantly, we all recognise that the real method to address poverty in this country is to provide people with employment� We have a national strategy to address jobless households� There is another strategy that will specifically address a cohort of people in households who are not working and are not seeking a job, and it will work with those people on a voluntary basis to allow them to have access to the services of the State� We must ensure that people who want to work are availing of the opportunities in the State, whatever difficulties they have or barriers they face, to enable them to get a job, and not just any job� I do not stand over a system that puts a hairdresser in a job picking apples� I want to get people jobs, better jobs and careers� The national strategy will determine how we will do that� The jobless households strategy is under way.
The specific pilot schemes we have for those under 25 and those over 55 are directly targeting those stubborn groups and parts of society where we have not been achieving the targets we would like to achieve� There is so much more 609 Dáil Éireann to do and there is a long way to go before we get to where the Deputy and I will be satisfied that we have done the job� 03/05/2018G00300Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: There is a geographical aspect to it as well� The midlands, Border counties, south east and south west are particularly badly affected, and perhaps strate- gies are required in the new four-year plan for those areas in particular� The social protection payment rates are also critical� Social Justice Ireland has evaluated that the minimum rate per person should be approximately €249 per week� One of my constituents believes that the basic contributory pension for pensioners who have worked hard throughout their lives should be €400 per week so they can live reasonably fulfilling lives in their final years.
There is much work to be done in that regard� I wish to raise a final point.
The Committee on Budgetary Oversight evaluated the public service performance report for the Minister’s Department� I noticed that while the report men- tions all the payments the Department makes, there is no connection between that and what the Department is trying to achieve, for example, in the national inclusion strategy� Is it possible that the metrics for this report could be changed so we can know what we are trying to achieve?

03/05/2018G00400Deputy Regina Doherty: I accept the broader point.
I will ask my officials to look at the report to see if we can make it more meaningful� What we must do is show the Irish people from a transparency perspective what we are doing with the €20 billion that is entrusted to my Department� Most importantly, however, the people we are trying to help need to see the effects and benefits of it.
I acknowledge where the Deputy is coming from with regard to the increase in payment rates, but I doubt that I would ever be lucky enough to get the amount of money that would be required to provide those types of rates� In essence, the Department does not provide fully for somebody’s outgoings.
I recognise that the moneys we give are not sufficient, especially from an old age pension perspective, to provide people with the quality of life they would have had when they were working� That is the reason I am introducing the automatic pension enrolment so we do not have another generation of people who are short of money in their retirement and to ensure people start planning for their retirement now� I also wish to ensure that, instead of just giving more money in schemes, we enhance the services people get and reduce the cost of living in respect of those services, be they in child care, education or health� It is not just down to our Department to continually change that €20 billion into €25 billion and €30 billion� It is up to the whole of Government to examine all the services we provide for people to ensure they have a decent quality and standard of living and enough money in their back pockets to be able to enjoy themselves� 03/05/2018G00500Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): If we get everybody’s co-operation we could possibly get through four more questions before 12 noon� I ask everybody to adhere to the time constraints� 03/05/2018G00600Deputy Regina Doherty: I am sorry, Chairman� 03/05/2018G00700Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): You are fine.
I am trying to accommodate the Members who are waiting to have their questions answered� 610 3 May 2018 03/05/2018G00800State Pension (Contributory) 03/05/2018G009009� Deputy Aindrias Moynihan asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Pro- tection when legislation will be brought forward to give effect to the approach that will correct the anomalies relating to contributory pensions post 2012; and if she will make a statement on the matter� [19251/18] 03/05/2018G0100010� Deputy Martin Heydon asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protec- tion the timeframe for reviews of contributory pensions for those who took time out of work to care for the family, following changes announced in 2017; and if she will make a statement on the matter� [19300/18] 03/05/2018G01100Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Deputy Heydon has indicated that he wants Deputy Deering to take his question.
I have no difficulty with that.
I call Deputy Aindrias Moynihan to introduce his question� 03/05/2018G01200Deputy Aindrias Moynihan: The people who lost out to the unfair 2012 pension cuts know that time is not on their side� It was right and proper for the Minister to announce that it would be corrected earlier this year� She stated in March that there would be legislation and that people would be contacted in the autumn with a view to payment from the beginning of next year� It is now May and there is no legislation� While it is a small slippage, people are conscious of time� They want to ensure that there will be no further slippage and that it will be delivered� 03/05/2018G01300(Deputy Regina Doherty): I propose to take Questions Nos� 9 and 10 together� The introduction of a total contributions approach, TCA, to pensions calculation was sig- nalled by the then Government in the national pensions framework in 2010, with a target date of 2020 for its implementation� On 23 January last, this Government agreed to a proposal that will allow pensioners affected by the 2012 changes in rate bands to have their pension entitlement calculated on a TCA basis, including provision for up to 20 years of a new home caring credit� TCA ensures that the totality of a person’s social insurance contributions, as opposed to the timing of them, determines what their final pension outcome will be.
In particular it will benefit people whose work history includes an extended period of time outside the paid workplace rais- ing families or in a full-time caring role� Crucially, unlike the proposed homemaking credits proposed in 2010, the home caring credit now proposed will apply to periods both before and after 1994� This recognises that most people reaching pension age between 2012 and 2019, if they had taken a home caring break, would most likely have done so before 1994� This approach will make it easier for many post-2012 pensioners affected by the 2012 rate band changes and who are currently assessed under the yearly average model to qualify for a higher rate of the contributory State pension� A person who reached pension age after 1 Sep- tember 2012 and who has a 40 year record of paid and credited social insurance contributions, subject to a maximum of 20 years of the new home caring credits, will qualify for a maximum contributory pension where he or she satisfies the other qualifying conditions.
Up to ten years of other credits can be awarded when they were on jobseekers or illness benefit and they are also subject to the total credits not exceeding 20 years� Legislation has to be drafted and enacted to enable implementation of these arrangements, and a number of options regarding the best approach to passing that legislation are being con- 611 Dáil Éireann sidered� At this stage I propose to introduce the legislation as part of the social welfare budget Bill later this year� Following this, what is most important is that the IT solutions are in line with the legislation because I have made a commitment to pay people from the first quarter of next year� I must ensure that the IT systems are developed to proceed with those plans� Accord- ingly, it is planned that the reviews will commence in the final quarter of this year, with the first payments being made in the first quarter of 2019.
The commitment we made in January for the payments to be dated from 26 March last still stands� The legislation will be introduced as part of one of our other Bills this year, as opposed to a stand-alone measure, and the IT systems will be ready and up and running to start making payments to the women and men who were affected by the band rate changes in 2012 by the beginning of next year� 03/05/2018G01400Deputy Aindrias Moynihan: The Minister originally envisaged contacting people in the autumn about setting out how it would impact on them� Has that date now moved or does she still intend to contact people even though the legislation might not be available until some time later?
The other aspect is that people want to see how this will affect their individual situations and the different conditions attached to it, for example, the ten years that will be available for people to get stamps.

Will they be defined in the legislation?

Will people have to wait until the autumn to see that and to establish how it will affect them or will it be available much sooner?

The date from which the payments will commence was originally set as the end of March this year.

Is that date still firm?


Perhaps the Minister will respond to those three points regarding the ten years, when she will contact people and the date in March� 03/05/2018H00100Deputy Pat Deering: I thank the Minister for providing for greater clarity as to when the re- view is to happen and payments will be made� That is the most important aspect� This has been one of the biggest measures of inequality since it was introduced a number of years ago and it is right and proper that it be addressed now.
Does the Minister have figures at this stage for the total numbers of people who have missed out?

Will all them, male or female, be addressed?
03/05/2018H00200Deputy Regina Doherty: The legislation is being drafted� I hope to bring it forward as part of one of the Bills currently before the House or perhaps the social welfare Bill later in the year� The proposed timeframe for contacting people has not slipped� Everyone who has become a pensioner since 2012 will be contacted, with a view to assessing them under the changes that have been made� During that process they will be assigned a home caring credit if they were carers before 1994, an illness or a job seeking credit� In many cases, they will already have a jobseeker’s credit and an illness credit because it would have been ascertained during the origi- nal assessment made for receipt of their pension payment� However, they will be completely reassessed� Payments under the new and old systems will be offered� Pensioners will make the decision on which system under which they want to be adjudicated on� Whoever opts to be assessed under the new system will have his or her payment made, backdated to 26 March when all of the other changes made in the budget came into play� For example, those who are expecting to receive their lump sum at some point in quarter one of 2019 will find that it was backdated to 26 March 2018� That process has not changed and is not slipping� As I said, we are drafting the legislation� I will bring it forward as part of some other Bill with the co-opera- tion of the House because we have a good number of pieces of legislation which are due to pass through the Houses between now and the end of the summer� The assessment will start later this year and it will then be up to people to determine whether they want to move to the new system or stay within the old one once the payments start in quarter one of next year� 612 3 May 2018 03/05/2018H00300Deputy Aindrias Moynihan: There are options to have ten and 20-year home caring cred- its� The Minister also referred to jobseekers’ and illness credits� Will people only be able to claim for a period of ten years in those circumstances?
Will this be set out in the legislation and when will it happen?

People such as Tommy and Richard worked overtime in 1973 and were not allowed to have their cards stamped because their income was too great at that stage� That year is now a gap in their records.

Will those who find themselves in that situation be able to claim for a period of ten years?

How will those ten years be defined?


I understood there was to be a public consultation process and that people would have the opportunity to make submis- sions� What is the position for people who served abroad as volunteers with Gorta, Concern, the Agency for Personal Service Overseas or any such organisation?
They should also be able to access the ten-year credit� 03/05/2018H00400Deputy Pat Deering: The important aspect is the timeframe� We have lost a number of years and I believe it is important that the Minister adhere to the timeframes she has outlined� The key point is that we will see the first of the payments being made in quarter one of 2019.
I am concerned that everyone who lost out, male or female, will have the opportunity to redress the situation� I understand a number of males do not appear to be any better off as a result of the review� 03/05/2018H00500Deputy Regina Doherty: The overall move from an averaging to a total contributions sys- tem will probably be the subject of a public consultation process next month� We will I hope have a very detailed and inclusive public consultation process, for both stakeholders and future pensioners, during the course of the summer months� It will be entirely separate from this par- ticular fix.
Ten-year credits are not new and will, therefore, not form part of the new legislation.
The intention is to provide a 20-year home caring credit for most of the people concerned� They would not previously have been able to avail of it because it was only introduced in 1994� In the example Deputy Aindrias Moynihan gave, the people in question paid stamp in the particular period� They cannot have two stamps, notwithstanding how much they earned� 03/05/2018H00600Deputy Aindrias Moynihan: Their records are blank� 03/05/2018H00700Deputy Regina Doherty: I do not understand why that is the case� Perhaps the Deputy might come to me with the details and I will look into the matter� If they had worked, they should have a stamp; it is as simple as that� I reassure the Deputy the timelines have not slipped� The commitment we made earlier this year was to address the anomaly, bring forward the legislation, invite people to be adjudicated on or assessed under the new model or the model under which they were being assessed and al- low them to choose whether if they wanted to change to the new model� If they choose to move to the new model, the payment will be backdated to 26 March 2018, even though it will not be paid until quarter one of 2019� 03/05/2018H00800JobPath Programme 03/05/2018H0090011� Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protec- tion her plans to review the JobPath programme� [19220/18] 03/05/2018H01000Deputy Willie Penrose: In a context in which the level of long-term unemployment is thankfully falling rapidly, will the Minister continue the JobPath programme?
Will a value- 613 Dáil Éireann for-money review of the programme be provided for?
I ask these questions in the context of the welcome announcement that from 1 June people will be able to participate in community employment schemes and Tús� If they were not allowed to participate, many schemes across the country would collapse� 03/05/2018H01100Deputy Regina Doherty: I recently announced that people engaged with the JobPath ser- vice would, from 1 June, have the option of applying for community employment scheme and Tús placements while continuing to work with the JobPath programme� This will ensure job- seekers can benefit both from the job-seeking support of the JobPath service and also avail of part-time work placements provided by Tús or under the community employment scheme� I believe the Deputy is aware that community employment scheme host companies and the ILDN have been in contact with me on a number of occasions in the past year to voice their concern that the vacancy rate for the very valuable services they provide in their counties is too high� The change which will come into effect on 1 June was an easy decision to make and I was pleased to make it� JobPath is an employment activation service designed to support long-term unemployed persons to secure sustainable employment� Those who engage with the service are assigned a dedicated employment personal adviser who works with them on a one-to-one basis� The pro- viders work with employers to source jobs that are suitable for the jobseekers concerned� To date, approximately 160,000 participants have engaged with the service� Case management services such as those provided by JobPath providers and the Depart- ment’s Intreo service and the local employment service are shown internationally to be the most effective form of what is known as an active labour market programme� Other types of programme include training programmes and schemes such as the community employment scheme and Tús� They also provide important supports� However, they should be delivered alongside case management services, rather than as an alternative to such services�
 In 2017, as part of an ongoing programme of tracking customer satisfaction, the Department commissioned an independent survey of customer experience of the JobPath service� Between 76% and 81% of customers surveyed were satisfied with the service and believed JobPath had improved their chances of finding a job.
Furthermore, the Department has published four per- formance reports covering those who commenced engagement with the service between July 2015 and June 2016� Employment outcomes among this group are higher than among other groups not referred to the service� These data and the results of the surveys are available on the Department’s website� In addition, the Department regularly carries out on-site inspections to ensure the JobPath programme is delivered in accordance not only with the contractual obliga- tions but also the motivations and ambitions the Department has for the service� Additional information not given on the floor of House To date, 54 on-site inspections have been carried out and, again, the results have been sat- isfactory� A full econometric evaluation of the service has commenced and is expected to be com- pleted by the start of quarter 4 of this year� Although I have no plans to review the service at this time, the results of the econometric review will inform our approach during 2019� 03/05/2018H01200Deputy Willie Penrose: I understand the Minister has embarked on an econometric review of the JobPath programme� I am asking that a value for money review be included� I also 614 3 May 2018 believe there should be an assessment of the number of people focused on by JobPath aged 60 years and over� I know that many people living in rural areas, particularly women, who were targeted by JobPath could not participate� The programme was managed in a heavy-handed manner and I was very annoyed about it� I am surprised by the satisfaction statistics the Minis- ter has outlined because I certainly did not pick up on them� It is good news that the level of un- employment has fallen� That is welcome, but I certainly do not share the rosy view of JobPath the Minister seems to hold� It did not allow people to participate in community employment schemes and Tús� It blocked their participation in such schemes and the Minister has correctly removed the blockage� I am aware that she has received advice from many
 people, including from within her Department� 03/05/2018H01300Deputy Regina Doherty: I agree with the Deputy� Bad news tends to travel around the world much more quickly than good news� However, the survey and, importantly, the job numbers arising from this programme speak for themselves� It is probably the most successful activation programme in the history of the State� We are conducting an econometric review, the purpose of which is to evaluate JobPath as a service and accurately estimate the impact of its interventions on people’s labour market out- comes� My Department is developing a new approach using cluster analysis� The review will spread long-term jobseekers who have engaged with JobPath into clusters based on age, gender, location, employment history, education and other distinctions� It will then examine the actual interventions that each of these clusters experienced and, using a statistical analysis, identify which led to the best outcomes for each cohort� I hope that this will provide a sound, evidence- based database for the improvement of our existing activation services and the design of new ones� Work on the review has commenced and I hope to have it before the end of the year� 03/05/2018J00200Deputy Willie Penrose: Surely the Department will now be able to support people into employment using its own resources instead of outsourcing that work� Regarding CE schemes, surely it is time to change the criteria and allow participants who reach 60 or 61 years of age to continue in those schemes for the next two, three or four years, which would bring them up to the pension age if they have not been in a position to secure alternative employment� For example, the Minister is aware of Dún na Sí Amenity and Heritage Park in Moate� Many of the people who have reached 60 or 61 years of age and have done their five years wish to continue on� They have no hope of securing alternative employment� A lot of work is being done, but CE schemes are part
 rehabilitation as well as part retraining and part activation� The Moate scheme was starved of people because they were not allowed to continue� The changes that the Minister has made will help, but people who have reached a certain age should be allowed to continue if they have not been able to secure alternative employment or activation� The Min- ister should make that change� 03/05/2018J00300Deputy Regina Doherty: As I stated at the outset, representations have been made to me by CE host companies and the Irish Local Development Network, ILDN, over the past year� They needed more people to ensure the viability of the services and supports they offered to the people on the schemes and the communities they supported� That is why we made the change� The Deputy may be under the wrong impression that JobPath providers stopped people from joining CE and Tús schemes� People were simply not allowed to do so under the programme� We do not allow people to be on two schemes simultaneously� It was probably because we had too many people on the unemployment register at one point that this was not possible� Thank- fully, the number of people on the register is now dropping, which is why we were able to make 615 Dáil Éireann the change last week� If the number ever increases again, though, we will have to reconsider that� I share the Deputy’s view on the age limitations� I have been working on this matter since I was lucky enough to be placed in this role last year� I have been unsuccessful so far, but I have another magic ace up my sleeve, so we might discuss the issue again� 03/05/2018J00400Deputy Willie Penrose: I hope the Minister wins that battle� 03/05/2018J00500Fuel Allowance Expenditure 03/05/2018J0060012� Deputy Michael Moynihan asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection her plans to increase the fuel allowance for the elderly to cover the extended cold period� [11376/18] 03/05/2018J00700Deputy Michael Moynihan: This year saw an extended cold
 period lasting up to recent weeks, but fuel poverty is a consistent issue� The Department must have contingency plans in place for the future, as there is no point in reviewing this matter after a crisis strikes� Will the Minister outline those plans?
03/05/2018J00800Deputy Regina Doherty: I wish I had a contingency budget just sitting around for rainy days, but I thank the Deputy for his question� The fuel allowance is a payment of an extra €22�50 per week from October to April to more than 338,000 lower income households at an estimated cost to the Exchequer of €227 million in 2018� The purpose of the payment is to as- sist those households with their energy costs� The allowance represents a contribution towards their energy costs only and is not intended to meet those costs in full� As the Deputy is aware, only one allowance is paid per household� In budget 2018 and with the support of the Deputy’s colleague, I extended the duration of the fuel allowance season by one week to 27 weeks, which is more than half of the year� That season is longer than the winter period in Ireland and provides assistance during what are largely colder weeks when heating costs are expected to be at a higher rate� We are having the most wonderful climate change reactions, however� One day it is lovely and warm and the next it is Baltic.
The extension of our changing weather patterns needs to be reflected by a quick re- sponse from the Department� Given the severity of the weather changes in March, we were able to make an extra week’s payment of €22�50, which was desperately needed� I have no further plans in this regard for this year’s budget because I do not have a contingency or a reserve, but the Department is preparing a report on fuel poverty for discussion with the social protection committee� This is being done so that, if adjustments to the scheme are required, they can be made within the confines of the budgetary negotiations this year or next year.
03/05/2018J00900Deputy Michael Moynihan: I thank the Minister for her reply� That report will be crucial� The Department will have to identify those people who, living predominantly on their own, must rely solely on their pensions to cover their living costs� All of the fuel allowance is ac- counted for, but some people are still not using their oil heating or putting on fires at various times of the day because the electricity allowance is not high enough to pay for it� We must use a number of approaches to identify these people, in particular elderly individuals� During the heavy snowfall in the last days of February and first days of March, our constituency of- fices received telephone calls asking what we could do to help people.
When adverse weather 616 3 May 2018 threatens, the advice is to check on elderly neighbours and friends and vulnerable people� By and large, that gets done because we have a great community spirit, but the real issue - funding - is hidden well under the carpet� I hope that the report will be finished in the short term and identify people who need the payment period to be extended� 12 o’clock 03/05/2018J01000Deputy Regina Doherty: I hope to be able to bring the report to the Committee on Employ- ment Affairs and Social Protection before the summer� We need a few months to make inroads if we are to avoid making the budgetary negotiations longer and more painful than they need to be� It will give us time to determine what the impacts are, particularly on families on fixed incomes to whom the Deputy referred.
However, there are other payments - “schemes” is not the right word - to people on fixed incomes in recognition of the fact that it is difficult to live an entire life and pay for everything the Deputy described on just that single payment� We have the living alone allowance, the fuel allowance and the new telephone allowance, which will be introduced in June� I am open to considering ways for us to satisfy people’s needs, but I want to base that con- sideration on data, which I hope we will have to hand in the form of the report this summer� 03/05/2018J01100Deputy Michael Moynihan: Rather than pension recipients alone, people in receipt of in- validity pensions or the disability allowance also need to be considered� I hope that the report will do so� That younger widows and widowers who are dependent on pensions do not qualify for a number of payments should be considered as well� In truth, I am referring as a whole to households that are solely dependent on social welfare and at risk of poverty, including fuel poverty� 03/05/2018J01200Deputy Regina Doherty: At the moment, the fuel allowance is only paid to a particular cohort of people, but the report that I hope to bring to the committee will not just address them� Rather, it will be a report on fuel poverty� As the Deputy is well aware, poverty knows no doors or windows that can stop it� The report will be all-encompassing and cover every section of society so that we can determine the best changes to be made to our payment supports� My Department’s supports are focused on people who either have no income and, therefore, no support external to what the State gives them or who, being on low incomes, need supple- ments to have a certain standard of living� 03/05/2018K00100Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): I will take Question No� 13 if Deputy Pen- rose is willing to forgo its introduction and the Minister’s response is short, and there will then be time for a brief supplementary question and answer� 03/05/2018K00200Community Employment Schemes Supervisors
 03/05/2018K0030013� Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection her plans to address the pension concerns of community employment supervisors� [19223/18] 03/05/2018K00400Deputy Regina Doherty: The issue of addressing the entitlement of community employ- ment supervisors to occupational pensions is primarily a matter for my colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform� For the record, it should be noted that my Department is not the employer of CE supervisors and, therefore, such employees are not public servants� 617 They are employees of limited companies that receive public funding� Dáil Éireann It should also be noted that the issue of CE supervisors’ pension provision is being exam- ined by a community sector high level forum, chaired by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform� My Department is represented on this group, as are the unions, Pobal and other relevant Departments, but it has only one input� I am conscious of the need for a resolution of this matter� I am also conscious that this issue requires careful consideration, having regard to the hundreds of thousands of people who work in the community and voluntary sector and the implications of any decision on scarce Exche- quer resources, particularly in light of the large size of the community and voluntary sector in Ireland� 03/05/2018K00500Deputy Willie Penrose: Is the Minister aware that previous Ministers for Public Expendi- ture and Reform and Environment, Community and Local Government put in place an ex gratia payment to circumscribe the numbers involved such that no precedential value was set� I have previously given details on the number of assistant supervisors and supervisors on CE schemes who will be left impecunious when they retire and their incomes drop from €500 or €600 per week to €120 or €200 per week, which is a huge decrease� This ex gratia system was accepted by the trade unions and everybody involved� Perhaps when the Department next
 has an input into the forum the Minister’s officials will seek to ensure this payment is brought back to the ta- ble as it would solve many of the issues.
Many of those involved have only five or six years left in work and as such they will not be entitled to a full pension but they are prepared to subscribe to a pension scheme going forward� They are well aware of the situation� They are not fools� 03/05/2018K00600Deputy Regina Doherty: I am not aware of the ex gratia payment� When it was brought to my attention by Deputy Howlin last week, I was not aware of it so I sought a report on it� 03/05/2018K00700Deputy Brendan Howlin: I am happy to meet the Minister to discuss it� 03/05/2018K00800Deputy Regina Doherty: This particular issue is years in the brewing� It has been through a Fianna Fáil Minister for Social Protection and Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, a Labour Party Minister for Social Protection and Minister for Public Expenditure and currently a Fine Gael Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection and Minister for Public Ex- penditure and Reform� If this was an easy issue to resolve, it would have been done years ago� 03/05/2018K00900Deputy Brendan Howlin: A solution is possible� 03/05/2018K01000Deputy Regina Doherty: We do acknowledge that there is a resolution that needs to be found but it needs to be found within the confines of the Labour Court recommendation that it cannot be to the detriment of the CE schemes and placements� Also, as custodians of taxpay- ers’ money we have to ensure that this does not extend to a far wider and greater reach than the original issue that was put on the table ten years ago� 03/05/2018K01100Deputy Brendan Howlin: Again, I am happy to meet the Minister to discuss the issue� Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website.
618 3 May 2018 03/05/2018K01125Leaders’ Questions 03/05/2018K01200Deputy Dara Calleary: It is eight days since the news of Vicky Phelan’s case came into the public domain, eight days since her amazing courage and her determination to speak the truth alerted the country and thousands of women in Ireland to the dereliction of duty and re- sponsibility which CervicalCheck and the HSE unleashed on her and her family and, possibly, thousands of others� In that eight days, there has been an enormous sense of worry, concern and anger throughout the country.
Many women are petrified that they will be affected and they are trying to get answers and information� Despite this need for answers and information, there has been no sense of urgency in providing those answers or information� Over these eight days we have learned that in the cases of at least 208 women who were diagnosed with cervical cancer, an original smear test had falsely given them the all-clear� Sev- enteen of those women have passed away, only two of whom were informed about the false positive before they passed� The remaining 15 women were not told and instructions were issued by somebody to note the false audit on their files but not to brief their families.
Eight days on, there are still, we understand, another 38 of those 208 women who have yet to be informed about their smear tests being wrong� Why the delay in informing these 38 women?
We now also know that there are potentially a further 1,500 women who have been diagnosed with cervical cancer over the past ten years, whose original smear test was not audited� This information was, apparently, only given to the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, last Tuesday evening, two weeks after the Department became aware of the gravity of this issue� Again, why the delay?
For many women the first point of contact to get the information was their general practitio- ner, GP� If they got an appointment with their GP, they found that CervicalCheck only formally contacted GPs this morning, eight days later, and it provided a completely innocuous update which provided no new information to the thousands of GPs who are struggling to deal with this issue� Again, why the delay?
Many other women, more than 6,000 we are led to believe, have contacted the helpline yet many are still awaiting a call back from a health care professional� It was only last night, another week into this crisis, that the Minister allocated 40 nurses to deal with this backlog� Again, why the delay?
There is no sense being given to women of this country that somebody in Government or the HSE is in charge of this situation� There is no sense that somebody understands the trauma being experienced by women in terms of the lack of information and the concerns they and their families have� I would like the Tánaiste to answer a number of questions to assist in alleviating this worry� When will the 38 women who have yet to be informed of their audit be informed?
Will all of these women receive full medical support?

I am aware of at least one of these women whose medical card was withdrawn in recent weeks by HSE medical cards, in respect of which she is being put through the wringer to provide information, yet she was able to get a telephone call recently to inform her of false positive� When will the families of the 15 deceased women be formally contacted to advise them that their loved one was the subject of false audit?
When will the helpline callbacks be completed?

When will women get the information that they are looking for from a healthcare professional?

The Taoiseach announced that women can have new smear tests undertaken, which is a welcome development� Will these smear tests be audited in a different laboratory from those 619 Dáil Éireann that are being used to audit smear tests?
Does the Tánaiste have confidence in the ability of the director general of the HSE to restore confidence in our cancer screening programme and does he agree that given the scale of the job to restore that confidence, the director general should step aside from every other interest in order that he can concentrate fully on that job?

This morning, Vicky Phelan called for the scoping inquiry agreed last evening to be held in public� Does the Government agree with her call?
03/05/2018K01300The Tánaiste: The Deputy has asked a lot of questions and I will try to answer as many of them as I can� First, there is a real sense of anger and frustration within Government this week in regard to what has happened and how it happened� Irish women have been badly let down� Many feel very vulnerable and very angry about this� I had the opportunity this morning to speak to the husband of one of the 17 women who died� He is very angry, for which I do not blame him� He has been contacted by the HSE but he needs a more detailed meeting and I think that is happening this evening� On the Deputy’s question, this has been a disgraceful breach of trust between thousands of women and the State through the HSE in terms of the healthcare they rightly expect to be provided with� We are in the processing of resolving this issue� I thank the Opposition par- ties for their co-operation yesterday in particular working with the Minister for Health, who is determined to resolve this issue and to put in place a timetable and initial plan to do so� As the Taoiseach has said, we want to do this correctly on the basis of knowing all the facts we can assemble before making decisions on how to proceed and to change and improve things fun- damentally� Everybody agrees now that there needs to be a statutory inquiry into this issue� It needs to be as transparent and as public as possible� We need a scoping exercise to make sure we have a deeper understanding of the facts, what transpired, when, how and who was involved so we can put the appropriate terms of reference in place for the inquiry� It is to be hoped this can be completed by the end of next month� I assure Members, and everybody listening outside of this House, that the Government is determined, from the top down, to deal with this issue in a comprehensive way based on all the facts as they become assembled� In the meantime we will see, I hope, a real sense of urgency from the HSE in reaching out to the women who have been directly involved, and their families,
 so we can do this in a professional and compassionate way and provide as much information as we can to provide an explanation as to why it will take a little bit longer to provide full facts and information, which will be a basis for making appropri- ate changes to ensure this never happens again� Of the 208 women, I understand that 172 women and families have been informed and con- tacted by the HSE.
There may be reasons it is difficult to contact the other women.
They may have moved or are no longer resident in Ireland� Efforts are very much under way to make sure all the women are contacted as soon as possible� With regard to providing medical supports and reassurance, of course the State wants to do that� We have made it clear that any woman who wants to have a repeat smear test for reassur- ance, or for any other reason, can do so without delay� The State will, of course, pay for that� The Minister for Health, the Taoiseach and the Government want to listen to the concerns of patients in particular, but also to the concerns of the Opposition parties on this issue so we can collectively get this right, so we can learn lessons from a situation that should not have hap- pened and so we can put new structures in place to ensure it does not happen again in the future� 620 3 May 2018 03/05/2018L00200Deputy Dara Calleary: We all have that sense of urgency� An immediate response is need- ed to assist our primary care professions in dealing with the trauma being felt by many women� That has not yet been provided and it needs to be provided� I welcome the Tánaiste’s commit- ment on the public nature of the scoping exercise� It is important, to use Vicky Phelan’s words, that the “closed doors” are not used anymore and that this is done in public and in the open� I will ask the Tánaiste about comments made by the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach to Deputy Marc MacSharry about the sensitive cases� Was the Government alerted to this case some months ago in the context of a sensitive cases update?
Will the Tánaiste confirm the position of the director general of the HSE?

What is the Tánaiste’s current understanding of his position?
03/05/2018L00300The Tánaiste: Having spoken with the Minister for Health, and it is also breaking in the media now, Tony O’Brien has confirmed to the Minister that he will take a leave of absence from any involvement outside the HSE between now and when he steps down from the HSE so he can focus on contributing in a positive manner to the work that needs to be done to put this right� This is the appropriate course of action and the decision for him to make� On the list of sensitive legal cases that is presented to Cabinet from time to time, we asked the Secretary General to look at the list of sensitive cases that had been on the list� Vicky Phelan’s case was not on the sensitive cases list� This information has just been given to me on my way in to House today.
I understand this is the confirmation that the Secretary General to the Government has provided� 03/05/2018L00400Deputy Pearse Doherty: I will repeat for the Tánaiste the words of Emma Mhic Mhathúna from Baile na nGall in County Kerry on the “Six One News” yesterday� The Tánaiste will be aware that Emma was diagnosed with cervical cancer in late 2016� Three years earlier she had been given the all clear following a smear test� Emma was told this week that she is one of the women who has been affected by the CervicalCheck scandal� When asked if people should be held accountable she said: Yes, they have to be� This is not one of those things where an apology, money or the reformation of CervicalCheck or bringing in a new test for HPV earlier on [is enough]� Her words speak volumes� She is a remarkably courageous woman and I extend our sup- port to her and her family at this unbelievably difficult time in her life.
Does the Tánaiste agree with her words that this is about accountability and information?

Yesterday, representatives of the HSE addressed the Oireachtas Committee on Health for five hours.

Instead of someone - anyone of them - taking responsibility for this terrible scandal, we saw five hours of passing the buck.
The head of the HSE Tony O’Brien said, “as the head of the HSE, I have to recognise that those who cocked-up, to use the Taoiseach’s phrase, were in the organisation but I did not personally make that cock-up so I cannot take full responsibility for it”� That is an absolute disgrace� One can delegate authority, but one cannot delegate responsi- bility� Either someone is held to account or the usual pattern of unaccountability will continue year after year, scandal after scandal� I put it to the Tánaiste that this simply cannot happen� Women, some of whom are now cancer patients, or dead or dying, were denied information about their health because of the failings of those responsible in our health service� One week 621 Dáil Éireann into this scandal and we still do not even know how many women are affected� The buck stops with someone� That person is Tony O’Brien who oversees the HSE� The media this morning has reported that Tony O’Brien has taken a temporary leave of absence from the board to which he was appointed in the United States of America� This does not go far enough� It just reiter- ates and confirms our view of the inappropriateness of the Minister for Health sanctioning Tony O’Brien’s participation on that board when there was a clear conflict of interest in the first place.
The women of Ireland deserve answers, but they also deserve accountability� That is what the women involved are calling for� This morning, Vicky Phelan said, “Heads absolutely need to roll, in particular Tony O’Brien’s, who has shown nothing but arrogance and who is more concerned with defending the indefensible than doing the right thing�” She is absolutely right� My party leader, Mary Lou McDonald, put this question to the Taoiseach on Tuesday and again yesterday� Perhaps the Tánaiste will lead where the Taoiseach will not� Will the Tánaiste call for the resignation of Tony O’Brien, or like the Taoiseach, does the Tánaiste express full confi- dence in Mr� O’Brien?
03/05/2018L00500The Tánaiste: This is about accountability and providing full information� It is about responding comprehensively to the fact that there was a disgraceful breach of trust and that women were denied information they should have had� Yesterday, Tony O’Brien apologised for that happening� Some days ago the clinical director of CervicalCheck stepped down� We have also seen the senior official in charge of CervicalCheck move aside and a new team, the serious incident management team, move in to take over CervicalCheck� We are now in the process of trying to establish all the facts� In my judgment, while we do that we need to ensure the ap- propriate management structures in the HSE are best placed to provide information and facts to the Minister and to an independent inquiry when it is set up� The truth is that Tony O’Brien has less than 12 weeks left in his contract� From what he said yesterday, he wants to focus in that time on being as helpful and constructive as he can be in establishing the facts here for the benefit of everybody.
That is what we are trying to do.
Rather than looking for heads, we are trying to look for the truth, establish the facts and, in doing that, in time, we need to hold people to account regarding their own role in the decisions that were made which led to this breach of trust� We should make that judgment when we have all the facts available rather than doing that in a way that would give the impression of immediate accountability because the person at the top would be standing aside� We have an obligation to ensure that we establish the truth and facts� Tony O’Brien’s focus on providing as much information as possible and putting systems in place that can co-operate fully with that independent investigation is probably the best way that he can assist in this process, rather than stepping aside from it� 03/05/2018M00200Deputy Pearse Doherty: The Tánaiste and Government know that we will work with the Government and Minister to ensure that there is a full public inquiry into this scandal which is conducted without delay� We can only hope that this will bring some clarity to the women affected in this scandal� The Tánaiste knows that it was agreed that the women’s voices need to be heard as part of that exercise� They also need to be heard with regard to accountability� Vicky Phelan made it clear this morning that Tony O’Brien should go� That does not preclude him from taking part in that investigation and giving all the information that he has about how this scandal unfolded� We do not need an inquiry to inform us that women with cervical cancer were denied critical information about their healthcare� We do not need an inquiry to know that 15 women went to their graves without that information� This is so serious� We do not need an inquiry to know that senior officials in the health service denied these women, and many others like them, this critical information� We do not need an inquiry to know that this happened on 622 3 May 2018 the watch of Tony O’Brien, director general of the HSE� We know all of that� We do not need an inquiry to know that
 the person who revealed this story, which none of us would be debating here today if it was not for her courage, is calling for Tony O’Brien to resign� The Tánaiste says that he wants to hear the women’s voices� They are asking for accountability� There is a twin- track approach here� We need to make it clear that we cannot allow Tony O’Brien to walk off into the sunset in six weeks with his pension, going on to the board of his US company� There has to be accountability� This is so serious� People have died without the information they were entitled to� The person at the head of the organisation which denied them that information has to be held to account� Given that the Tánaiste is not willing to call for the resignation of Mr� O’Brien, does he express full confidence in Mr. O’Brien?
03/05/2018M00300The Tánaiste: Nobody in this House is in any doubt as to how serious this situation is� I do not think any one party is any more outraged than any other� This is a disgraceful situation that should not have happened� We are now setting about and working with all of the other parties to put a comprehensive process in place that is transparent, open and will be reassuring to women who need that reassurance that we will understand fully how this happened, who was involved in the decision-making around the policy decisions that allowed this to happen, and people will be held to account in that context� In the meantime, we need a HSE that delivers to a Depart- ment of Health and, indeed, to a scoping process which will happen over the next six to eight weeks, and subsequently to a full investigation that will be put in place with, hopefully, the ap- proval of everybody in this House� We will then get to the bottom of this as quickly as we can� In the meantime, we need to ensure that we build a new level of reassurance and confidence in the cancer screening processes in Ireland to ensure that the benefit we get from screening is maintained� Let nobody suggest here that there will not be full accountability with regard to who knew what and when� That is what we are trying to do now, in putting structures in place to make sure that is independently assessed by international experts who can provide the reas- surance that we need� That is the approach that the Government wants to follow� 03/05/2018M00400Deputy Pearse Doherty: I asked the Tánaiste twice if he expresses full confidence----- 03/05/2018M00500An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: An Teachta Bríd Smith� No, Deputy Doherty----- 03/05/2018M00600Deputy Pearse Doherty: -----in Tony O’Brien to continue working as director general of the HSE� I deserve an answer� More importantly, the victims of this scandal deserve an answer� 03/05/2018M00700An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I call Deputy Bríd Smith� Deputy Doherty cannot----- 03/05/2018M00800The Tánaiste: Can I answer?
03/05/2018M00900An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Very briefly.
03/05/2018M01000The Tánaiste: I have said that it is the Government’s judgment that Tony O’Brien can be the most use to the women of Ireland in establishing facts here if he focuses fully on trying to assist in the process that the----- 03/05/2018M01100Deputy Louise O’Reilly: That is not an answer� 03/05/2018M01200The Tánaiste: -----Government puts together between now and when he leaves the HSE in a few weeks� 03/05/2018M01300Deputy Bríd Smith: The Tánaiste has said this is about accountability and a breach of trust� I argue that it is also about the privatisation of women’s healthcare� When we delve into the in- 623 Dáil Éireann quiry that is promised, we have to look at how outsourcing since 2008 has impacted the results of screening and led to women dying as a consequence� It has also led to an award by a private company to Vicky Phelan� Why else would it pay her off, if it was not guilty?
We have also asked for a breakdown of the final 208 false tests to show what clinics they came from.

I want to preface what I will say by saying to every woman that we must stick with the programme of screening under CervicalCheck� It is really important that women stick with that programme� I am not playing politics when I make this point� We found out yesterday that the State Claims Agency received a request for Ms Phelan’s files in January.
The head of the national screening programme knew in March that a claim was going to court� He kicked it up the line to the head of national screening who it kicked up the line to the Department, which knew in March� The Minister did not know� I will make it simple for everybody here� I have a diagram of the transitional organisation structure of the HSE here and I have coloured the Minister in in blue to match the colour of his shirt� The risk committee is answerable to the Minister� The director general, Tony O’Brien, is answerable to the Minister� None of them told the Minister, even though he is the boss� He is at the head of all of this.
None of them told him but none of them has been fired or suspended.

Going right down the line to where the information first came in, nobody is in trouble for this.
I know a young hospital worker who was suspended for two months because she criticised HSE spending and the trolley crisis in a Facebook post� The Minister has to make heads roll in that Department for failing to tell him and failing to be accountable� If he does not, he should go because somebody has to go here� I do not believe the Minister that he did not know� I do not believe Tony O’Brien and I do not believe that the Minister’s Department is not full of people who are trying to cover this up� If the Minister believes that they are not trying to cover this up, that they are all innocent and they are all okay, then he is failing to do his job� The Minister at the head of the organisation.
The fish rots from the head and the Minister needs to deal with it or else he needs to resign� 03/05/2018M01400The Tánaiste: We all have to work together to get to the bottom of this----- 03/05/2018M01500Deputy Simon Harris: She has no interest in that� 03/05/2018M01600The Tánaiste: -----and reassure women across the country� 03/05/2018M01700Deputy Bríd Smith: Just do that� 03/05/2018M01800The Tánaiste: I welcome the first thing the Deputy said about encouraging people to con- tinue to believe in and to use the screening systems� We are reaching out to Opposition spokes- people, as the Minister did yesterday� My understanding is that Deputy Bríd Smith is the only person who did not agree with the way forward that has been charted from yesterday and that is her right� We are listening to other perspectives here to try to reach consensus on the most ap- propriate way forward� I do not think it is credible to suggest that the Minister knew about this before it was public� He has responded in a way that has put multiple changes in place imme- diately as well as putting a huge sense of energy and urgency into the system to try to establish facts.
He has been frustrated in those efforts, which has been hugely difficult to manage from a political perspective but, as he stated, his problems are not the issue here� Rather, the issue is the problems facing families and women which we must and will put right� People will be held to account but first we must establish the full facts.

This is not a matter on which we should shoot first and ask questions later.
We should publicly establish an under- 624 3 May 2018 standing of how this happened and whether it was a cock-up, as the Taoiseach said yesterday, or some kind of conspiracy, which I doubt� Until the full facts have been independently ascer- tained, we should be careful in what we say and who we blame� Natural justice should not be set aside because of people’s understandable anger and anxiety� As regards the outsourcing of testing, cervical smear tests are currently carried out by three institutions: Quest Diagnostics in New Jersey in the United States; MedLab Pathology Limited, which is a US company based in Dublin, although the testing takes place in a lab in the US; and the Coombe Women and Infants University Hospital, Dublin.
As the Taoiseach confirmed yesterday and on Tuesday, 50% of the testing is done in Ireland and 50% abroad� We have no reason to believe that the number of false negatives or false positives differ to any significant degree between the laboratories, but that will have to be established by a new independent in- quiry to decide if the decision to outsource was a mistake� Some people believe it was, while others believe it was not� We must not make judgments on these issues in the face of the emotion of this debate but rather on the basis of the facts as they are put together over time� That is how we should ap- proach this to protect women� 03/05/2018N00200Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: We should have done that ten years ago� 03/05/2018N00300Deputy Bríd Smith: We know many things in advance of an inquiry starting� We know that Clinical Pathology Laboratories, CPL, tried to gag Vicky Phelan but she would not acquiesce� CPL is the sister company of MedLab in Sandyford and we are still using it to screen women’s cervical tests.
Even if we accept the bona fides of the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, in regard to not knowing about this issue, there is still a problem because the chief medical officer and the Department knew about it but did not tell him� As I have pointed out, he is at the head of the food chain.

He is the fish with the rotting head and must do something about this issue.
The Tánaiste mentioned natural justice� In any industrial relations or investigative cir- cumstance there are suspensions from the time an investigation begins� People are suspended while the investigation takes place� This matter cannot be properly investigated while those in the Department who did not tell the Minister are in situ� It is against natural justice to allow that� If the Minister, the Tánaiste or the Taoiseach do not oversee such suspensions, they will be complicit in this scandal� Heads must roll� I plead with the Minister to discipline those who failed to tell him� If he does not, he should resign� It is not credible for him to stand over such a situation while some young women in hospitals are suspended for posts on Facebook� Why is a Department official not being suspended for failing to tell the Minister?
03/05/2018N00400The Tánaiste: Those in charge of CervicalCheck have been moved aside� It now has a new management team on the instruction of the Minister� The management team----- 03/05/2018N00500Deputy Bríd Smith: It is not part of the Department� 03/05/2018N00600The Tánaiste: I ask the Deputy to listen to the answer� The management team reports on a daily basis to the director of the HSE, who now reports daily to the Minister in regard to prog- ress on this issue� The Minister is taking a hands-on approach to progressing the issue properly� As regards a lack of information, much of the information given to the House by the Min- ister as matters unfolded over the past week or so was gathered last weekend by audit teams sent into hospitals by the Minister to go through files to ensure we have a clear understanding 625 Dáil Éireann of the numbers involved and so on� Contact has been made with women and families who should have had information far earlier but did not get it� It is likely to be a case of advisers to the Minister not having had the information, rather than it being withheld from him� We must consider how a management system within the HSE allowed that to happen� 03/05/2018N00700Deputy Bríd Smith: The Department yesterday stated it had the information in March� 03/05/2018N00800The Tánaiste: That is why if what the Deputy stated is correct------ 03/05/2018N00900Deputy Bríd Smith: I am not making it up� 03/05/2018N01000The Tánaiste: ------it will be confirmed by an independent statutory inquiry and we will be able to make informed choices and learn lessons on that basis to put new systems in place to ensure there is no repeat of the events of the past seven days� 03/05/2018N01100Deputy Michael Harty: I have chosen to speak on a different subject even though yester- day we had a very lengthy meeting of the Joint Committee on Health on the issue of cervical screening which revealed some very valuable information� The European Commission yesterday stated that the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, budget is
 to be reduced by 5% and payments to farm families may be reduced by up to 4%� This bad news for Ireland was outlined yesterday at the unveiling of the multi-annual financial framework, which will run from 2021 to 2027� Does the Tánaiste share my concerns about these potentially disastrous proposals for Irish agriculture, in particular for small to medium- sized farms?
This will be the first budget after the exit of the United Kingdom from the Euro- pean Union, which departure will leave a gap of €12 billion in the European budget� The Government must come clean on the future of Irish farming supports� There are serious issues coming down the line which will impact on Irish farm families� Farmers have been wor- ried for some time and now have more reason to be worried that the CAP reduction will kick in from 2021� It is clear that the Commission does not believe that the remaining 27 members of the EU will make up the budget shortfall after the United Kingdom leaves the European Union� Member states are being asked to increase their contribution by a very modest amount, but we do not know if they will do so� Commissioner Oettinger expects the cuts to be between 5% and 10%� The proposed budget cuts have been well flagged.
In response to a parliamentary ques- tion I submitted, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Creed, stated that there are many challenges facing the CAP and the budget after 2020 but he hopes they will be addressed and farm supports maintained.

That was clarified in no uncertain terms by the Euro- pean Commissioner, Phil Hogan, who recently stated in Kilkenny that there will be a €12 billion deficit in the EU budget.
He could not have been clearer in stating to farmers in Kilkenny that there will be a cut to the budget if member states do not contribute more money� Addressing the European Commission in January 2018, the Taoiseach indicated that Ireland will only make an enlarged contribution to the budget if the spend is on policies that contribute to the advance- ment of European ideals� The only upside is that it will be two years before the budget is renegotiated, which gives the Government, MEPs and the Commissioner for Agriculture time to sort out this problem� That might be an impossible task� One of the biggest criticisms of CAP is that 80% of the budget goes to 20% of the farmers, so I welcome the commitment to supports for smaller farmers� In 626 3 May 2018 spite of that, we face a situation whereby farmers will have to move from expecting more to doing with less, which is a frightening challenge� Nevertheless, we must know how the Gov- ernment proposes to manage this crisis� 03/05/2018N01200The Tánaiste: I suspect we will debate the CAP budget issue on many occasions in the House between now and the decisions being finalised.
The Commission has set out its opening position, which recognises that in the absence of member states being willing to increase their contributions, there will be a €12 billion reduction in the EU budget because of Brexit� In that context, the priority is the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, through which approximately 80% of EU funds come into Ireland� It is a huge support across rural Ireland, with which people will be more than familiar� This round of CAP funding will deliver approximately €12 billion of EU funds into the rural economy� I am familiar with the preparations for the CAP negotia- tions because when the last round of CAP funding was finalised, I was Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine� Ireland chaired the Council of Ministers at the time� Therefore, I know that the Commission’s proposal is just the start of the process� I recognise the work Commissioner Phil Hogan has done in this area� Many were predict- ing a much higher initial proposed reduction under the CAP� Commissioner Hogan has done a very good job in limiting the initial damage, but there is a lot of work for us still to do to ensure there will be no reductions in supports available to Irish farmers in the future� However, much of what he said yesterday was welcome, apart from the actual funding that may be available� He focused on small to medium-sized farmers� That will continue the work that has begun on the equalisation process of payments that began in the current round of CAP funding� He also talked about facilitating a new crisis reserve fund, which would be hugely welcome� He talked about an increased focus on the environment and the climate and building on the greening of the CAP which is very much under way� There are positives in what was announced yesterday, but there is work to be done to ensure member states will examine ways in which they can contribute increased amounts to the over- all EU budget to compensate for the fact that, without Britain, we will have a smaller amount of money to spend in all areas at a time when the demand for expenditure from EU budgets is increasing in a number of new areas, from migration to security and so on� From an Irish perspective, I want to be very clear� The CAP is a huge priority for us in the context of the multiannual financial framework, MFF.
The support of Irish farmers will always be a big priority in the context of a future MFF� We will work with Commissioner Hogan who I believe has done a very good job in the context of the starting point of the negotiations to ensure we will protect the incomes of farmers� 03/05/2018O00200Deputy Michael Harty: I thank the Tánaiste.
In addition to the difficulties a reduced CAP budget would present for Irish farmers, we have other issues coming down the line, including Brexit, for instance� We know that the Brexit negotiations are pretty much deadlocked� That will have a huge impact on farming if they are not successful and if there is to be a hard Brexit� Not only would it reduce farmers’ incomes but it would also reduce their capacity to move be- tween the North and the South with their farm produce and from east to west in bringing their products to continental Europe with reference to the tariffs that would be imposed on them� Also, Mercosur is a huge threat to Irish farmers in that if the deal goes ahead, cheap beef will come in from South America into the European market and impact on the price of Irish beef for Irish farmers� Vulture funds are beginning to circle over Irish farms� Banks are selling loans of Irish farms to vulture funds� It will have a huge impact on farming if these loans are sold to 627 Dáil Éireann vulture funds� The Irish Farmers’ Association needs to step up to the mark and support farmers on that issue� 03/05/2018O00300The Tánaiste: I thank the Deputy who has referred to a number of threats to Irish farmers, but there is also a good news story for Irish agriculture� We are seeing Irish beef entering the Chinese market after years of laying the foundations� We have seen a series of new trade deals signed up to by the European Union that are very positive for Irish agriculture� For example, the opportunities for the dairy industry in Mexico are significant.
The opportunities in Canada and Japan are also significant.
The Chinese market will play a significant and increasing role for the Irish beef industry in seeking new markets� Many good things are happening, but, as always in agriculture which is such a huge part of the economy, there are threats to which we need to respond as a Government in a comprehensive way� On Brexit, agriculture and the agrifood industry are big parts of our bilateral discussions with the United Kingdom - I am travelling to London this afternoon - and also our work through the Barnier task force� Mr� Barnier was in Ireland on Monday and Northern Ireland on Tuesday� Much of his focus was on agrifood in the context of maintaining and supporting a functioning all-island economy, as well as a future close relationship between Ireland and the United King- dom, particularly in sensitive sectors such as agriculture� 03/05/2018O00400Questions on Promised Legislation 03/05/2018O00500An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I remind the House that, as is customary, we only have 15 minutes on a Thursday for questions on promised legislation� I ask Members to take this into consideration� 03/05/2018O00600Deputy Dara Calleary: I return to the issue of inquiries� Prior to the general election in 2016, a commission of inquiries Bill had reached Committee Stage and been awaiting Report Stage since September 2015� The Bill had been suggested by the Law Reform Commission in its 2005 report� It has not been restored to the Order Paper since the general election� Surely this is the time to give priority to establishing a new framework for inquiries, to involve, in particular, public observance of inquiries� 03/05/2018O00700The Tánaiste: I am told that the Bill was brought forward during the term of the previous Government� It was not reinstated on the list of legislation to be brought forward by the Gov- ernment, but I can get back to the Deputy with more details� My understanding is it is not on any list for consideration� 03/05/2018O00800Deputy Pearse Doherty: The Tánaiste will be aware that the Irish Nurses and Midwives
 Organisation, INMO, is holding its annual conference in Cork� It has made it very clear that the issue of pay is central to addressing the crisis in the recruitment and retention of nursing pro- fessionals� The crisis is having a severe effect on the hospital network, including community hospitals� There is broad agreement that if we are to see the issue being addressed, the issue of pay has to be central� The Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance supported a Sinn Féin motion which was passed unanimously by the House last week that examined and proposed solutions to the crisis� When will the Government sit down with nurses to address the fundamental issue of pay?
03/05/2018O00900Minister for Health (Deputy Simon Harris): I thank the Deputy for the question� I look 628 3 May 2018 forward to attending the INMO conference tomorrow and having an opportunity to engage with nurses and midwives on this issue� As the Deputy rightly said, the Public Service Pay Com- mission is considering issues to do with the recruitment and retention of staff in the healthcare sector� It is due to report shortly - I believe during the summer� I know that the INMO has had an opportunity to make its submission and also to engage with the commission� We will be guided in our next moves by its findings.
03/05/2018O01000Deputy Brendan Howlin: As he is taking questions on proposed legislation, I want to raise a matter with the Tánaiste� Under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement which was signed 20 years ago, there is a commitment to introduce a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland� There is grave concern, with Brexit less than a year away, that such a Bill of Rights has not yet been progressed.

Where does it stand?


Will the Government seek agreement in the final withdrawal agreement with the United Kingdom on a commitment to passing of a Bill of Rights?
It would provide a degree of comfort for many Irish citizens in Northern Ireland who are genuinely con- cerned� Yesterday many of us met a range of human rights organisations� The Tánaiste may have met them also� 03/05/2018O01100The Tánaiste: Yes� 03/05/2018O01200Deputy Brendan Howlin: A public commitment in that regard would be very welcome� 03/05/2018O01300The Tánaiste: That is a very fair request� I met the organisations yesterday� It was not the first time I had met the rights commissioners on both sides of the Border.
There is a great deal of concern in Northern Ireland in the context of a multitude of rights people enjoy today be- cause of EU membership and the clarity provided, for example, by the Charter of Fundamental Rights� The uncertainty surrounding the status of many of these rights and expectations post- Brexit is causing a lot of concern� The commitment in the Good Friday Agreement to bring- ing forward a Bill of Rights has been part of the conversation in trying to put back in place a devolved government structure in Northern Ireland between the parties there and between the Irish and British Governments� I will be meeting the Secretary of State, Ms Karen Bradley, later this afternoon and want to discuss with her, in the context of Northern Ireland and Brexit, the concerns raised with me yesterday and the need for the British Government to provide greater reassurance through the negotiations on rights and equality issues generally� As part of it, a Bill of Rights would be very helpful, but, of course, we cannot deliver it without the British Government wanting to do it, too� 03/05/2018P00200Deputy Paul Murphy: I raise the very important issue of identity fraud� Does the Govern- ment have plans to introduce measures to deal with it in the Data Protection Bill?
I am aware of the case of a constituent of mine, Mr� Adam Keane, who has been convicted of a driving of- fence, despite not being able to drive, in what appears to be a clear case of stolen identity� He faced a similar situation on two previous occasions and the gardaí involved agreed that he was not driving the car� He is sitting in Portlaoise Prison and appealing his conviction, but his case points to the broader need for legislative action to prevent and tackle identity theft� 03/05/2018P00300The Tánaiste: That sounds like a very difficult case.
The Data Protection Bill has reached Committee Stage� It was debated yesterday and will be debated again today� Therefore, there is an opportunity for parties or individuals to raise specific cases to ensure the new legislation will deal some of the issues that have been raised� 03/05/2018P00400Deputy Mattie McGrath: I refer to the Rebuilding Ireland programme� I am glad that the 629 Dáil Éireann Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government is in the House� The Rebuilding Ireland home loan scheme is not working� My colleagues in the Rural Independents group and many other Deputies know of cases of people who had no problem in receiving refusals from the banks, either by telephone or email, but when they apply to the county councils, they find that there is no co-ordination between the Department and the local authorities� They are all over the place� 03/05/2018P00500An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Does the Deputy have a question?
03/05/2018P00600Deputy Mattie McGrath: I am referring to people on modest incomes who have some savings and want to house themselves� They are not expecting the Government to provide them with housing� They are honest, hard working and on modest incomes, but there is utter confusion between the county councils and the Department� Someone needs to provide clarity and the county councils need to be on the same page as the Minister� It is a serious issue----- 03/05/2018P00700An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It is not necessary to elaborate further on it� 03/05/2018P00800Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government (Deputy Eoghan Murphy): I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for his question� The Rebuilding Ireland home loan scheme which I announced earlier this year has proved to be very popular� 03/05/2018P00900Deputy Mattie McGrath: It is popular, but it is not working� 03/05/2018P01000Deputy Eoghan Murphy: There has been great interest across the country in the loan scheme and there have been a number of successful applicants to date this year� However, we have to be very careful� We must make prudent decisions in the context of mortgage lending at local authority level.
A meeting was held last week between officials from my Department, the Housing Agency and the Housing Finance Agency to discuss the implementation of the loan scheme in certain local authorities where there may be a misunderstanding� Communications will issue to these local authorities to help them to better deal with the public in accessing this very important mortgage option� 03/05/2018P01100Deputy Mattie McGrath: They are not getting access to it� 03/05/2018P01200Deputy Eoghan Murphy: The loan is at a fixed rate over 30 years and a very important product for those who want to buy their own homes� 03/05/2018P01300Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: Pages 26 and 27 of the programme for Government contain a se- ries of commitments to tackle the homelessness crisis� Obviously having accurate data for the numbers of people in emergency accommodation is vital to track the progress or otherwise of these commitments� On Monday the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government alleged that local authorities had wrongly included 600 people in their homeless person figures.
However, it now appears that none of the people in question is in private rented accommoda- tion or a council tenancy and they are all in emergency or temporary accommodation� Will the Minister explain why, on his instructions, councils were told to remove homeless families from the March report?

Is this not a case of deliberately manipulating the figures?
Will the Minister apologise to homeless families for treating them in this way and give a commitment to publish updated and accurate figures for March as a matter of urgency?
03/05/2018P01400Deputy Imelda Munster: On the same subject, as Deputy Eoin Ó Broin said, the Minister for Planning, Community and Local Government instructed Louth County Council to remove 630 3 May 2018 100 households, including 32 children, from its homeless person figures, despite the fact that they were living in temporary or emergency accommodation because they were homeless� The county council still considers these individuals and families to be homeless� How low will the Minister go to conceal the true extent of the homelessness and housing crisis?
There are 4,500 people on the housing waiting list in County Louth, but there are land banks lying barren and bereft of any social or affordable housing� If the Minister put as much effort into funding the roll-out of a proper social and affordable housing building programme as he does into conceal- ing, hiding and covering up the figures for homeless persons, he would not have to stoop so low in the future� 03/05/2018P01500An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We must move on� A brief response from the Minister, please� 03/05/2018P01600Deputy Eoghan Murphy: I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle----- 03/05/2018P01700Deputy Imelda Munster: I have a direct question for the Tánaiste� 03/05/2018P01800An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Please, Deputy� 03/05/2018P01900Deputy Imelda Munster: Does the Tánaiste stand over the Minister’s tactics of conceal- ment and cover-up of homeless persons figures?
03/05/2018P02000An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I have been more than fair� The Tánaiste has delegated to the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government� 03/05/2018P02100Deputy Imelda Munster: Does he stand over the Minister’s tactics?

03/05/2018P02200An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy cannot continue talking.
I will finish questions on promised legislation now, if she wishes� The Minister has been delegated to respond by the Tánaiste� 03/05/2018P02300Deputy Eoghan Murphy: This is a bizarre intervention by Sinn Féin� The mask might be slipping in that it is now trying to politicise the homelessness crisis� (Interruptions).
03/05/2018P02500Deputy Eoghan Murphy: So desperate is it to see the numbers go up that it thinks we should be counting people who are not living in emergency accommodation as homeless� 03/05/2018P02600Deputy Pearse Doherty: Where are they?

(Interruptions).

03/05/2018P02800Deputy Eoghan Murphy: We encountered an error----- 03/05/2018P02900Deputy Imelda Munster: Where are they?
They are living in emergency accommodation� 03/05/2018P03100Deputy Eoghan Murphy: They are not� 03/05/2018P03200Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: They are� 03/05/2018P03300Deputy Eoghan Murphy: No, they are not living in hotels, bed and breakfast accommoda- tion, hubs or hostels� 631 03/05/2018P03400Deputy Eugene Murphy: The love-in is over� Dáil Éireann 03/05/2018P03500Deputy Eoghan Murphy: In some instances, they are living in private rented accommoda- tion� 03/05/2018P03600Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: On a temporary basis� 03/05/2018P03700Deputy Pearse Doherty: Short term----- (Interruptions).
03/05/2018P03900Deputy Eoghan Murphy: They never went into homelessness� 03/05/2018P04000Deputy Pearse Doherty: They are living in emergency accommodation� (Interruptions).

03/05/2018P04200An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We cannot have a debate on the matter� 03/05/2018P04300Deputy Pearse Doherty: This is shameful� 03/05/2018P04500An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We will move on� Deputy Michael Collins is next� 03/05/2018P04600Deputy Eoghan Murphy: This is deliberation manipulation by Sinn Féin----- (Interruptions).
03/05/2018P04800An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Unless the Minister gets a hearing, we will move on to Deputy Michael Collins� 03/05/2018P04900Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: This is disgraceful� The Minister is deliberately misleading the House� 03/05/2018P05000Deputy Pearse Doherty: Is he saying to the families in question and their children that they are not homeless?
03/05/2018P05100Deputy Eoghan Murphy: A Leas-Cheann Comhairle----- 03/05/2018P05200An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputies must give the Minister a hearing� 03/05/2018P05300Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: The Minister is doing a disservice----- 03/05/2018P05400Deputy Eoghan Murphy: No, it is Sinn Féin that is doing a disservice to homeless per- sons----- 03/05/2018P05500An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: If Deputies do not give the Minister a hearing, it is not pos- sible----- 03/05/2018P05600Deputy Eoghan Murphy: It is Sinn Féin that is doing a disservice� We have to focus on the people living in emergency accommodation who need our help, people who are sleeping rough on the streets----- 03/05/2018P05700Deputy Imelda Munster: They are living in emergency accommodation� 03/05/2018P05800Deputy Pearse Doherty: They are and the Government----- 632 03/05/2018P05900Deputy Eoghan Murphy: No, they are not� In some instances, they are living in private rented accommodation� They never went into homelessness� 3 May 2018 03/05/2018P06000Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: It is shocking� 03/05/2018P06100Deputy Eoghan Murphy: We should not count them as being homeless because it does a disservice to those who actually are homeless� That is where our focus should be, not on Sinn Féin’s political antics� 03/05/2018P06200Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: Shame on the Minister� 03/05/2018P06300Deputy Michael Collins: Page 118 of the programme for Government contains a commit- ment to invest €15 million in island communities� Bere Island off Castletownbere has over 200 permanent residents and is visited by many more holidaymakers� A permanent, registered HSE general nurse has been working on the island, but in recent times this nurse has been taken from the island to the mainland on various days to cover planned and unplanned leave by colleagues� 03/05/2018P06400An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy should not get into the micro details now but deal with the macro issue� 03/05/2018P06500Deputy Michael Collins: This leaves many on the island without a service� This is a very
 worrying time for the residents who fear that this is the beginning of a withdrawal of the ser- vice� Will the Tánaiste assure the people of Bere Island that this will not happen?
03/05/2018P06600The Tánaiste: I know Bere Island very well as I travel there every summer� The Govern- ment has invested heavily on the island, including in water and electricity infrastructure and a new pier� Millions of euro have been spent because we appreciate and recognise the role of island communities off west Cork, as well as other island communities off the west and north- west coasts� If there are issues with healthcare service provision on the island, I would like to hear more about them and can assure the Deputy that the Government will deal with them� 1 o’clock 03/05/2018P06700Deputy Declan Breathnach: I hear on the grapevine that the numbering system will not continue next week� That is welcome� Allied to and part of the disgraceful health scandal that is the smear test debacle is the failure to supply information on current health status� The Taoiseach said an immediate priority was the fast-tracking of the health infor- mation and patient safety Bill to address this issue� While those who are impacted on by the smear test scandal must be our immediate focus, it is equally important to ensure anyone with a health diagnosis will be provided with full information in an open and honest manner� Members of this House, as well as the general public, want to know the time- frame involved in addressing this anomaly in order that people will be provided with the facts� Any open disclosure system should be mandatory� We also need a patients’ charter which will include a requirement that information be provided for patients� 03/05/2018P06800Deputy Simon Harris: I thank the Deputy for raising this issue� He is correct that one of the most tangible things this Oireachtas could do is pass legislation to provide for mandatory open disclosure in the health service of serious, reportable incidents� I will go to the Cabinet on Tuesday for permission to draft such legislation� I have separated it from the broader Bill to which the Deputy referred in order that we can prioritise it and get it through quickly� I will
 be happy to work with him in that regard� 03/05/2018Q00200Deputy Tony McLoughlin: This issue comes under the remit of the Minister for Agricul- 633 Dáil Éireann ture, Food and the Marine� I have been approached by a number of farmers and the IFA regard- ing the urgent need to release the 50% of GLAS payments due to farmers� Sheep welfare pay- ments also need to be issued urgently� Separately, there is concern regarding the extension of electronic identification to all sheep.
These issues have been highlighted in every constituency and, particularly in my own area, because of the lack of funding� It is vitally important that the payments be made immediately� 03/05/2018Q00300Deputy Martin Kenny: I would like to make a suggestion on the sheep tagging issue� In fairness to the Minister, he met Opposition spokespersons about electronic tagging last year and he suggested that something might be coming in� Most people agreed it would be good for the sheep industry� However, we expected that it would be introduced under the sheep welfare scheme and that it would be announced in the budget last October with an increased payment under the scheme� Farmers would have welcomed that but having to do without any payment is a little too much� 03/05/2018Q00400The Tánaiste: The Minister has been speaking to Opposition spokespersons and to our own Deputies in respect of the tagging and, therefore, I will leave that to him� However, I recognise the difficulties the farming community has had.
This has been one of the worst winters and springs that I can remember and the Minister is working hard to ensure that all payments due are released without delay.
A significant effort is being made in his Department to make sure that that will be the case� 03/05/2018Q00500Deputy Anne Rabbitte: My question relates to promised legislation under the remit of the Minister for Health� At the time of the introduction of the Health Information and Patient Safe- ty Bill 2015, the HSE had responsibility for governance of, and provision for, children in care� Earlier, on “Today with Sean O’Rourke”, the reporter, Mr� Brian O’Connell, comprehensively covered an issue relating to data collection for siblings in care� No data are being gathered in respect of them� Will the Government introduce a children’s information Bill?
If siblings are taken into foster care and then separated, no data are being gathered� 03/05/2018Q00600The Tánaiste: This is a relevant issue but it probably comes under the remit of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs rather than the Minister for Health� I am informed by the Min- ister for Health that he will liaise with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and revert to the Deputy on this� 03/05/2018Q00700An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: No� 7 was taken by Deputy Munster� I call Deputy Stanley on No� 8� 03/05/2018Q00800Deputy Brian Stanley: I raised this issue of wind farm guidelines with the Taoiseach on Tuesday afternoon� He replied that he would ask the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment to respond to me� I received a letter from the Minister earlier in which he states public consultation on the draft guidelines will not start until later this year and he hopes to have them finalised and in place by late 2018. Who is holding this process back?
He also said that in the meantime, the 2006 wind energy guidelines would remain in force� I support wind energy generation as part of the renewable energy mix but the problem is giant turbines are springing up� The latest 12 for which planning permission has been granted will be erected in Moanvane, Walsh Island, County Offaly, just outside Portarlington� Can the Tánaiste find out who is holding the guidelines back?
Five years ago, the former Ministers, Phil Ho- gan and Pat Rabbitte, repeatedly told me and others in the House that they would be in place “shortly”� Six years later, they have still not been implemented� 634 3 May 2018 03/05/2018Q00900The Tánaiste: The Government is anxious to move on with the public consultation process regarding new guidelines� The public will have a say and we will move as quickly as we can to make sure new comprehensive guidelines are put in place before the end of the year� 03/05/2018Q01000Deputy Fiona O’Loughlin: I refer to page 41 of the programme for Government, which refers to leadership on jobs targets and rural development, and the regional spread of economic growth and jobs� Yesterday, the community of Athy was devastated by the news that Coca- Cola, which has been a strong employer in the town for 45 years, will close its factory with the immediate loss of 82 jobs and a consequential impact on 70 other jobs� I cannot overstate what this will do to the town with the loss of millions of euro to the local economy� It is a massive blow to a community that is battling unemployment issues� What will the Government do to ensure every support is made available to the former workers and to redouble efforts to ensure IDA Ireland investment in Athy?
I have spoken to other local employers such as Pfizer which are prepared to help and review CVs� We need Government action immediately� 03/05/2018Q01100Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection (Deputy Regina Doherty): As I outlined to my party colleague, Deputy Martin Heydon, when this was brought to his attention yesterday, the full support of my Department will be given to the 82 workers affected� We will host an event in Athy where departmental officials will meet the workers to inform them about their social protection entitlements and, more important, to examine their skill sets and get them back to work in a different environment� I will inform the Deputy when the event has been organised and I would be grateful if she would attend as well as a local representative� 03/05/2018Q01200Deputy Joan Burton: Does the Tánaiste consider it to be ethical, practical or good manage- ment to allow the chief executive officer of the HSE to take a lucrative second appointment to a health company board in California?
Do any of the provisions of the Standards in Public Office Act 2001 or other ethics legislation or public service codes of conduct apply to the CEO or is he exempt from such requirements?
At a time women are hurting----- 03/05/2018Q01300An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We have had this debate� There is a question to the Minister for Health on ethics� 03/05/2018Q01400Deputy Joan Burton: We hear about the gig economy but it is extraordinary to most wom- en that the CEO would have been allowed by the Minister for Health or his predecessor to take a second lucrative appointment----- 03/05/2018Q01500An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I have been more than generous with time� 03/05/2018Q01600Deputy Joan Burton: -----when it is a big enough job to run the HSE� 03/05/2018Q01700Deputy Simon Harris: The contract of the director general who was appointed during the previous Fine Gael-Labour Party Government allows him to take up employment where the Minister sanctions it.
This was employment of less than five hours a month but, rightly, consid- ering the important issues the Deputy highlighted for women’s health and the need for him to focus on that exclusively for the remaining few weeks of his term, he has appropriately taken a leave of absence from it� With regard to the question regarding SIPO, I will revert to the Deputy directly� 03/05/2018Q01800Deputy Joan Burton: The employment was sanctioned within days of the Minister taking up office.

It is very strange.
635 03/05/2018Q01900Deputy Simon Harris: It was not within days� Dáil Éireann Sitting suspended at 1.08 p.m. and resumed at 1.48 p.m. 03/05/2018U00100Markets in Financial Instruments Bill 2018: Order for Second Stage Bill entitled An Act to make, as respects certain regulations that concern markets in financial instruments, provision for indictable offences that carry greater maximum penalties than are permitted by the European Communities Act 1972; to make provision in relation to fees in re- spect of the performance by the Central Bank of Ireland of certain functions; to amend Schedule 2 to the Central Bank Act 1942; to amend section 2 of the Credit Reporting Act 2013 and the definition of “long-term financial service” in the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman Act 2017; to repeal section 5 of the Markets in Financial Instruments and Miscellaneous Provi- sions Act 2007; and to provide for related matters� 03/05/2018U00300Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Michael D’Arcy): I move: “That Second Stage be taken now�” Question put and agreed to� 03/05/2018U00500Markets in Financial Instruments Bill 2018: Second Stage 03/05/2018U00600Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Michael D’Arcy): I move: “That the Bill be read a Second Time�” The Markets in Financial Instruments Directive II, known as MiFID II, is the cornerstone of European Union financial markets legislation, covering the regulation of investment services providers� It is changing how European markets operate for the better as we go forward, en- suring safer more transparent markets across the Union� MiFID II represents a major piece of financial markets reform and is ambitious in its scope.
It seeks to make financial markets more efficient, resilient and transparent in a number of ways.
It introduces rules to keep pace with technical developments such as algorithmic----- 03/05/2018V00200Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: Algorithmic� 03/05/2018V00300Deputy Michael D’Arcy: -----trading that has the potential to cause systemic risks� It improves transparency and oversight of financial markets, and for the first time establishes the principle of transparency for non-equity instruments such as bonds and derivatives� The Bill also introduces measures to deal with excessive volatility, improves conditions for competition in the trading and clearing of financial instruments and builds and strengthens investor protec- tion rules� The directive was transposed into Irish law by statutory instrument in August of last year and it entered into application on 3 January 2018� However, it is necessary to provide for criminal sanctions and penalties for infringements outlined in MiFID II via primary legisla- tion� Hence the need for this Bill� It provides that a person guilty of an offence under certain provisions of the MiFID II regulations, such as operating without authorisation, is liable on conviction on indictment to a maximum penalty of €10 million, imprisonment for ten years or 636 3 May 2018 both� This is a continuation of the criminal sanctions regime that existed in Irish law under our MiFID I regime� While the main part of this Bill is the introduction of criminal sanctions under MiFID II, the Bill also contains amendments to definitions in the Credit Reporting Act 2013 and the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman Act 2017� The Credit Reporting Act provides that the Cen- tral Bank of Ireland shall establish, maintain and operate a database of specified personal and credit information known as the central credit register� The purpose of the register is to ensure that credit providers will have access to the most accurate and up to date information regarding a borrower’s total debt exposure when considering an application for credit, or when an existing loan is in arrears or being restructured.
It is advised by the Office of the Attorney General that the definition of “credit” included in the Act, which was intended to exclude trade credit from the scope of the central credit register, would also unintentionally exclude hire purchase and similar credit agreements� The amendment to the Act included in this Bill remedies the issue� The Bill also makes an amendment to the definition of “long term contract” in the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman Act 2017 which refers to the European Communities Life Assurance Framework Regulations 1994� The policy intent was to capture life assurance con- tracts of all durations, including open-ended products� It has now emerged that the European Union (Insurance and Reinsurance) Regulations 2015 implementing the Solvency II Directive superseded the 1994 regulations for many insurance undertakings.
This Bill amends the defini- tion to ensure that products to which the 2015 regulations apply are also included in the defini- tion� The purpose of this amendment is to grant access, on a statutory footing to the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman for consumers wishing to make a complaint about these products� I will now provide a short outline of the Bill� Sections 1 and 2 contain the Short Title of the Act and a provision dealing with expenses incurred in the administration of the Act� Sections 3 and 4 repeal the criminal sanctions and penalties contained in the Markets in Financial Instruments and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2007 and provide for further definitions.
Section 5 provides for the definitions and details of fines and penalties that I have already outlined in relation to infringements of MiFID II.
Section 6 allows the Central Bank to charge fees in relation to its functions under MiFID II� Section 7 contains an amendment to Schedule 2 to the Central Bank Act 1942� Section 8 amends the Credit Reporting Act 2013, as I have already outlined� Section 9 contains the amendment to the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman Act 2017� I thank my fellow Deputies for the opportunity to speak today on the Markets and Financial Instruments Bill 2018� I look forward to debating these measures and commend the Bill to the House� 03/05/2018V00400Deputy Michael McGrath: I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the Second Stage debate on the Markets and Financial Instruments Bill 2018� It is broadly a technical Bill� The European directive was transposed in August 2017� However, primary legislation is required to give effect to elements of that directive� It is principally in the area provided for in section 5 of the Bill.
I refer to the provision around a “relevant defence”, the definition of that and the penalties provided for� There is also the amendment to the Credit Reporting Act 2013� Section 9 of the Bill amends the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman Act 2017� My party is supportive of the Bill� We will engage constructively on Committee and Report Stages in respect of the passage of this legislation� However, it is timely to get a reminder of the need for accountability and for strict penalties to be put in place where financial regulation transgressions occur� The tracker mortgage scandal is the dominating consumer issue at the 637 Dáil Éireann moment� In that context, this is a reminder for the Government of the need to re-examine do- mestic legislation� I refer to legislation on the Statute Book holding people accountable� Most people monitoring the evolution of that scandal will want to know at the end of it that there are answers� They will want to know that there is some accountability as to how it could happen across all the main lenders� How did they all happen to make the same mistake and, ultimately, who will be held accountable for that?
The Central Bank has now confirmed that enforcement investigations are under way in respect of the five main lenders.
I welcome that and ask the Minister to engage constructively with the Central Bank on any requests it has for additional powers� The whole area of white collar crime has to be prioritised by this Govern- ment� We need to strengthen the provisions on our Statute Book� This Bill, which derives from a European directive, is a timely reminder of the need to do that� 2 o’clock The Bill also provides an opportunity to call on the Government to redouble its efforts to support at a European level the need for a Single Market in respect of financial services.
I have raised this issue on a number of occasions and at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach� Consumers elsewhere in Europe are benefitting from much lower interest rates on mortgages and business loans� We are meant to have a European Single Market� Why can consumers in Ireland not access credit from a bank in France, Italy, Spain or Germany?
The reality is they cannot� The wheels are moving very slowly at a European level to deal with that� That issue is relevant as well in the context of insurance� We consistently need to raise this issue at ECOFIN, at the Eu- rogroup and at the European Council to try to drive on that process� We do not have a European Single Market in respect of some key services people rely on in their day to day lives� This Government should be prioritising and dealing with that issue� We often get press releases from the Central Bank warning people about unauthorised firms.
I refer to firms that are not regulated and are trading in this country, trying to sell services and products to people here� It is important that we build awareness among consumers as to what regulation means and what are the benefits of regulations.
We have to also improve the aware- ness of the difference between where firms are regulated in Ireland prudentially and where they are regulated here for conduct of business purposes only� We all hear at the end of the adver- tisement on the radio or the television that a certain firm is regulated for conduct of business purposes� The Setanta Insurance saga is rumbling on and there is still no end in sight for many people, despite the Government statement some months ago that claimants would get 100% of what they are due� There is deep frustration among many people who were caught up in that scandal� We are now four years on from the collapse of Setanta Insurance� In some cases, the relevant accident had occurred seven years prior to that� I know of cases that go back seven and eight years and where the claim is still outstanding because at the point of the collapse of Setanta, the claim was not settled� The policyholders got caught up in the quagmire of the liquidation of the firm.
This really needs to be dealt with� Some people have got zero while others have got 65%� It is not only an issue for the claimants but for Setanta policyholders as well� They are completely innocent� They took out a legitimate insurance policy in this State� Yet, they still have legal letters on their kitchen tables suggesting they could be held personally liable for any shortfall in a claim made against them� That is not acceptable� I welcome the Government commitment to deal with the issue but we need greater urgency� We need to get the issue closed 638 off as quickly as possible� 3 May 2018 The final issue I want to raise with the Minister of State relates to the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman� I fully supported the legislation brought forward by Sinn Féin� Deputy Doherty did good work on the six-year rule� Our party produced a Bill and there was Government legislation as well� The six-year rule was amended to introduce a discoverability clause� To complement the six-year rule an additional provision was made whereby a com- plainant had three years from becoming aware of the subject matter of the complaint or from when he or she ought to have become aware of it� I am aware of difficulties with the application of this.
I have discussed the matter of whole- of-life insurance policies with the Minister and I have raised it before as well� The way people in this country have been treated with these policies is a scandal� When the policy comes up for review, whether it be after five years or ten years, the premium people are expected to pay can increase dramatically to such an extent that it is simply unaffordable for many people� They have no choice in that they are locked in, essentially, to the product� Such cases are taken before the ombudsman� I have raised this issue before� I have issued press releases on whole-of-life insurance policies.
There seems to be some blockage and difficulty with the ombudsman in dealing with where the statute of limitations issue arises� Will the Minister examine the matter in the context of this Bill?

We may bring forward amendments but I am keen for the position to be absolutely clear� Consumers must have a right to bring cases of mis-selling to the ombuds- man where they have only become aware in recent years of a difficulty with a product.
That was the intention of the legislation brought forward by Deputy Doherty, as well as the Depart- ment and the Government legislation, but there are difficulties in its application.
Certainly, we want that issue dealt with� We look forward to the full debate on the Bill, including Committee and Report Stages� We will engage constructively� We will be supporting the Bill� 03/05/2018W00200Deputy Pearse Doherty: Ba mhaith liom mo ghlór a chur leis an Bhille seo agus cuirim fáilte roimh an Bhille seo os comhair an Tí inniu� Beidh Páirtí Shinn Féin ag tabhairt tacaíochta don Bille seo� Tá cúpla ceist againn agus ábhar mion atáimid ag iarraidh tabhairt tríd ach beidh sin fágtha go dtí leibhéal coiste agus sílim go mbeadh sé fábhrach dá mbeimid ábalta deileáil le hoifigigh na Roinne fosta le cuid de seo a phlé sula théann sé go dtí leibhéal an choiste ach ar an chéad dul síos, is dul chun cinn mór é go bhfuil sé os ár gcomhair inniu� Ba mhaith liom fosta ceist a chur ar cén fáth gur tháinig seo i bhfeidhm ar an 30 Eanáir ach nach bhfuilimid ach ag deileáil anois ag an Dara Céim inniu� I welcome this legislation for several reasons� I have a query relating to how the measures came into force on 3 January, yet we are only dealing with Second Stage of the legislation to- day� However, I welcome it because of the content and because we are dealing with the matter through primary legislation� This point is important� This is complex law and is not being dealt with through secondary legislation, although that was an option� It is important that this law is dealt with through primary legislation� It will give the Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach an opportunity to tease out in detail the implications of the legislation and ensure that it is fit for purpose.
I note how this adds to an existing range of consumer protection legislation� There is now such a range and maze of codes, regulations and Acts� There is growing need for composite consumer protection legislation to clarify all codes and statutory instruments and all the various 639 recommendations� That needs to come later down the road, perhaps� Dáil Éireann The specialist nature of these provisions requires a separate Act and I have no issue with it� However, there is a wider issue with regard to pulling all the consumer protection provisions together into composite legislation� That will make it easier for people to know all the various strands of consumer legislation under a composite enactment� Commentators have said that the second Markets in Financial Instruments Directive, MiFID II, is designed to throw light on some of the darker parts of the financial markets in investments.
The measure does not necessarily imply that anything sinister or wrong is going on with such products or that part of the market� It simply means that they are out of sight and out of mind for the vast majority of us� It is fair to say that Ireland, more than any other EU state, with the possible exception of Luxembourg, is exposed to the possible reputational and actual damage of the vast financial sector that operates here, or at least operates here on paper.
MiFID II brings greater transparency, regulation and surveillance of deals done, invest- ments made and benefits gained.

That is welcome.
That is welcome.

It also shines a light on the casual boys’ club of trading data and information that can exist� The amount of trading that goes on in the so-called dark pools and that is mired in secrecy will be limited� Brokers and traders will now have to report almost instantly the detail of deals done� That is welcome� Overall, it is a wel- come, if perhaps unglamorous, addition to financial regulation.
I said in my opening remarks that I looked forward to examining at a later stage the exemp- tions Ireland has chosen to use� I hope to tease out the matter on Committee Stage with the Minister and I wish to give him advance notice� I intend to tease out the full explanation for, and secure reassurance on, why these optional elements do not dilute the effectiveness of MiFID II or leave us more exposed to reckless behaviour� That is something we need to be assured of� I welcome the addition of section 9, which addresses the issues I have raised as well as a technical issue in the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman Bill� I will suggest amend- ments to the section� I have discussed an issue with a constituent� We have been dealing with the Department for a lengthy period now� I believe even more clarity is required� I would be happy to engage with officials of the Department in advance of Committee Stage to ensure we get this right� I am keen to have my concerns allayed on the need for an amendment� My con- cerns are technical but that would be helpful� In short, the interpretation of what constitutes a fixed term may in a small way allow some financial service providers off the hook.
This is clearly not within the spirit of the legislation.

I have been in contact with the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman as well as many consumers who maintain the law still does not protect or empower them, especially in the case of so-called whole-of-life policies� I hope this will be teased out on Committee Stage� I welcome the remarks of Deputy Michael McGrath on the matter.
We need to be able to find consensus on the matter on Committee Stage� When I was progressing my legislation through the House, I raised concerns in respect of the definition.

At the time I did not have majority support for consideration of a different definition but it has come to pass that there is a block.
I am unsure whether the matter falls under the remit of the ombudsman or this legislation� The ombudsman maintains the legislation says what it says and, therefore, there is a restriction� I am keen to hear the Government remarks on the matter� We always need to revisit legislation to determine whether it is doing what we intended� Despite the differences we had regarding the definition at that time and my attempt to try to widen it in order that there would be no ambigu- 640 3 May 2018 ity regarding these products, I can safely say that everybody believed that these products would be within the scope of this Bill� It is something that I intend to address on Committee Stage, but given the technical nature of this Bill it would be far better if we were to agree and reach some consensus on this issue beforehand� One of the issues addressed by the markets in financial instruments directive, MiFID I and II is the transparency brought to the process when an adviser, for example, has to declare that he or she has an interest in an insurer, for example, that he or she is recommending as a client� This is a crucial aspect of the legislation� To bring this back to the ordinary consumer, this is an issue which has caused problems� I have put a large amount of evidence before the Central Bank on a range of banks that failed to declare that they were the owner or part-owner of an insurer they recommended to market holders� There has been no action, as I understand it, from the Central Bank’s point of view in that regard.
There are difficulties with the Central Bank because when a person makes a disclosure to it, it is not able to report to him or her what it is doing� I am aware that a High Court case on this issue was taken by a number of individuals who took a financial institution to court.

They won that High Court case.


The company appealed to a higher court and then withdrew its appeal� Therefore the law states what the law states� I assume there was an out-of-court settlement with those individuals� I have no reason to believe that did not happen� I know those individuals were not the only people who were missold that insurance product by the financial institution.
This boils down to the fact that the insurance an individual bought when they took out their mortgage was owned or part-owned by the firm that was selling the mortgage� One is not allowed to do that without declaring it� It is unlawful to do that, and that is what the courts have found� What was interesting about that case was that prior to it being heard in the court, this mat- ter was brought to the attention of the Central Bank and it gave a slap on the hand but it did not carry out any enforcement proceedings in regard to it� I know that every single insurance product sold by this financial institution had the exact same terms and conditions.
Thousands of people were affected� We talk about disclosure and non-disclosure and we now have the cervi- cal cancer scandal, but information is power� Thousands of people were also missold the same product by the same financial institution and do not have a clue about it, as that High Court case would have been settled out of court and would have had attached to it a confidentiality agree- ment or a gagging order� Nobody else is aware that this is happening� This did not involve just that one institution� Some of the main lenders in this State were also involved in this practice� As I said, I have provided legal documentation to the Central Bank on this and it is something on which we need to see action taken� That shows that, with all of the great laws that are in place, and MiFID I and II deal with this, without a regulator being prepared to act decisively at an early stage, they are worthless� Without information being provided to the consumers, how do they know that there is a techni- cal part of the conditions that provide that a person who is the owner of an insurance company selling an insurance product to a customer must declare he or she owns the company or has an interest in it above 25%?
That is what has happened� I ask the Minister of State to intervene, if possible, in regard to that� In private meetings with the banks, I continue to push with them their responsibility on the tracker issue� I am very much of the view that they hope that issue is going away, but I am very much of the view that this scandal is far from over� There are groups, whether they be bank staff or those in the prevailing eight institutions, that simply cannot be wished away� I take this 641 Dáil Éireann opportunity to appeal to the Minister of State to ensure that this does not linger on month after month, year after year, and that we would bring this to a speedy conclusion� The legislation Deputy Ó Laoghaire and I drafted on class action suits is before the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality� That is to be welcomed and it will add to this suite of leg- islation which will give better protection to consumers� I welcome this Bill and the fact that it is coming in as this type of legislation and that we will be able to deal with it in detail� It might allay some of my concerns about the exemptions we are using in respect of it, but we need to get it right regarding the few points I made, particularly about life insurance� It will be our intention to table an amendment to that effect but, with the experience the Department has of this matter, we would rather it came from the Department� 03/05/2018X00200Deputy Joan Burton: This is the first time since the news about the cervical testing ser- vices broke that we have met a Minister from the Department of Finance� The Department of Finance oversees the public service and the public service code of conduct� In that respect, will the Minister of State indicate whether any element of the public service code of conduct applies to the head of the HSE, and whether the Department----- 03/05/2018X00300An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is going way beyond the scope of the Bill, in fairness� 03/05/2018X00400Deputy Joan Burton: I will be very brief on this� I want to say to the Minister
 of State and to the officials in particular----- 03/05/2018X00500An Ceann Comhairle: Would the Deputy not speak to them afterwards because we are here to discuss this Bill?
03/05/2018X00600Deputy Joan Burton: We need to get some information from the Department about the ap- plication of the public service code of conduct to the head of the HSE� 03/05/2018X00700An Ceann Comhairle: Yes, but that is not relevant in the context of this Bill� I do not want to be at odds with the Deputy, but it is not relevant in the context of the legislation before us� 03/05/2018X00800Deputy Joan Burton: This is about regulation and the approach to regulation in an area where, as previous speakers have just said, the regulation is very difficult for people to under- stand� We have not heard anything from the Department of Finance, which is the Department responsible for public service code of conduct� 03/05/2018X00900An Ceann Comhairle: If the Minister of State was to attempt to address that matter now, I would have to rule him out of order because it is not relevant to the subject matter before us� 03/05/2018X01000Deputy Joan Burton: It is relevant to women in Ireland----- 03/05/2018X01100An Ceann Comhairle: Of course, it is hugely relevant� 03/05/2018X01200Deputy Joan Burton: -----and the scandal we have heard of in recent days� 03/05/2018X01300An Ceann Comhairle: Yes, but the Deputy knows the procedure as well as I do� 03/05/2018X01400Deputy Joan Burton: We have not seen any Ministers from the Department of Finance coming into the House to discuss their responsibility for the public service code of conduct and how somebody in the HSE can take a second appointment when they are charged with manag- ing the HSE� That is what I wanted to say� 642 3 May 2018 On this particular legislation and the European Union directive, there are many new finan- cial products and changes in existing financial products coming constantly onto the markets.
Much of the trading is now done by individuals, businesses and people in the financial markets through the cloud and the Internet.

The speed of change, therefore, makes it very difficult, espe- cially for smaller investors and individuals and small and medium sized businesses, to keep up with that� Any regulation in this area, therefore, is welcome� Algorithms are certainly changing the world, particularly the world of financial instruments.
It is important to remember in 2018, ten years after the catastrophic collapse in our bank- ing system, the catastrophic role contracts for difference played in the collapse, in particular, of Anglo Irish Bank and where Mr� Seán Quinn of Quinn Insurance built up something like a 30% stake - I cannot remember the exact figure - in the bank through contracts for difference which were not apparent to the regulators in the Central Bank at the time in the way perhaps they should have been fully apparent so that the Central Bank could take action to protect and defend the integrity of the entire Irish banking system, which subsequently collapsed� It is important that we remember that and not become blasé� These instruments can be used rapidly with tremendous effect, but they also have enormous capacity for destruction, as we saw clearly in the role they played in the downfall of Anglo Irish Bank which ultimately cost the taxpayer €30 billion which we will probably never see again and was the long lead-in to the troika com- ing and taking control of our affairs and Ireland losing control of its financial independence.
Therefore, these issues are very important� One should bear in mind also that in the subsequent ten years what has changed enormously is the insurance sector, in particular, provisions for pensions, many of which are inevitably linked with the insurance and financial investment sectors, whereby individual employees in the private sector who used to be in defined benefit schemes are now, because Ireland is part of a global financial system, in defined contribution schemes, which means that they are manag- ing their own pension funds, perhaps from the age of 26 or 27 years to the moment they retire� There are only the odd few who are capable of playing the markets to ensure their pension will be there for them when they retire.
Anything which beefs up financial regulation in favour of the individual consumer, the individual pension investor and small and medium-sized busi- nesses in order that they can trade in a safer and more confident way is to be welcomed.
On the new developments in finance, the securitisation of investments through different structures has happened apace� The securitisation of mortgages and loans has been happen- ing since the end of the last century and particularly at the beginning of this one� Most of the transactions are at one remove from the consumer - the individual whose house may end up in a securitisation bundle worth many billions of euro� The big question is: what protections are we building for such individuals against the might of financial companies and instruments which are coming to dominate the financial aspects of their lives over a long period.
In that context and with reference to the European Union, this is one of the arguments in favour of a financial transactions tax, even if it was at a very low level� To have a tax of even half a point - in fact, as the officials will be aware, one can have a tax at a zero rate - one must have a proper record of transactions� One of the problems in that regard is that their descriptions are often limited because they simply fail to keep abreast of the sheer level of change in financial instruments and derivatives� At times, because of the way derivatives are used, they can be likened to the crack cocaine of the financial services sector.
People are sitting in their rooms at 2 a.m. and playing on screens� I do not know whether the Minister of State, Deputy Michael D’Arcy, ever has time to look at some of the advertisements on his phone, but they are the most seductive in that they 643 Dáil Éireann tell us there is no longer a risk with derivatives� Did the Minister of State know that?
There are amazing packages which assure that someone will only win, win, win� In fact, they are more akin to gambling advertisements than to financial investment advertisements.
Notwithstanding all of the difficult reforms, I am not sure we have learned lessons from the risks from which the country suffered catastrophically� We have a Central Bank that is now regulated, but it is also responsible for consumer protection� Being perfectly honest, its under- standable priority is regulation, but the consequence is that consumer protection - of individuals and businesses which use banks and financial markets, particularly small and medium-sized businesses - is very low down its list of priorities.
It is complex, but it is difficult to approach the regulator which is not sufficiently strong to take on bad behaviour in the financial services sector on behalf of the little guys and get justice for them in a timely and appropriate way� We just do not have this� In many ways, it may be because we are in awe of the money those in- volved in the financial markets seem to have.
That level of wealth carries with it perhaps an aura of benevolence and intelligence� The protection of consumers, both individuals and busi- nesses, is weak in Irish financial structures.

That is the only conclusion one can reach.
The role of the Financial Services Ombudsman needs to be empowered and enhanced� In particular, the relationship with the Central Bank and the Central Bank’s understandable pri- mary concern being regulation in meeting EU requirements and being part of the European Central Bank are problems that have not been solved in the Irish legal structure� We need to look at this� If, as mentioned, amendments are brought forward, I hope the Minister will con- sider them seriously� We also need to look at the amendment in respect of the consumer credit register which is little understood by most� I am particularly concerned about the potential impact of a negative mark on the register against young people who, for instance, are seduced by the offer of easy car loan arrangements, fail to complete the loan repayments properly and will as a consequence have a negative mark registered against them� When they then come to buy a house or seek loans for other purposes, they may find that their credit rating has been impaired.
We should look at this matter in the context of the amendment the Minister is moving in respect of the credit register.
Specifically, I would like the Minister to update us on how many negative credit events have been registered� As the register is in its early days, I assume that there have not been many, but I wonder the level of monitoring in which the Minister is engaged of negative credit events noted in the register� Potentially they have enormous implications for people’s lives, particularly of young people who are being flooded with advertisements offering cheap, fast credit� The loan is now online� One sees ads with a smiling couple as one comes in from the airport or when one is on a bus� The smiling young couple are told they can now get quite a big loan in a couple of hours or a couple of days� I do not know how much caution accom- panies those very rapid credit decisions� They are like the letters we used to all receive during the last boom saying we were good for a particular amount of credit� Older people are more credit-averse but younger people, understandably, when they see these incredibly seductive ads, may well be tempted� I would like the Minister of State to tell us, when he is going through the amendment, how the credit register is working out and what he is doing to protect young bor- rowers� Has the Department tightened up car loans because the terms and conditions on which they are based can be easily defaulted on resulting in a negative credit event for people?
The Government was very keen on strategic communications� Would it not be a good idea if the Department was to do a deal with provincial newspapers and radio stations and national broadcasters, including television and radio, to have more consumer information education?
644 3 May 2018 There was a very large strategic communications unit� There needs to be more education about consumer information and about some of these products� Going back to the financial transactions tax, the Irish position has been we would do it if everybody else joined it� At the end of the day one of the few ways of really ensuring there is a legally enforceable requirement to describe all different types of instruments and properly record all different types of transactions is to have them affected by the tax code so they must be recorded and that there is a record which is available to the tax authorities� That is also im- portant in regard to money laundering and to international financial crimes.
Europe has been relatively slow to deal with this area� We have a bewildering situation where an awful lot of very elderly people are under siege from different banks to prove their identity even when they are in nursing homes� I am sure some people here will be familiar with this from constituents� They are asked to give all sorts of information but at the same time other people seem to be able to pop down to the IFSC from time to time and there seems to be an awful lot of illegal cash and laundered cash sloshing around� Perhaps the Minister might tell us about how in the context of financial instruments there are walls being built to restrict money laundering and criminal use arising from the generation of drug money and so on� 03/05/2018Z00200Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: I am delighted to have the brief opportunity to contrib- ute on the Markets in Financial Instruments Bill 2018� I particularly thank the Houses of the Oireachtas Library and Research Service as always for providing us with some very useful and important back-up information� The Ceann Comhairle’s former colleague, former Minister for Finance and European Com- missioner, Charlie McCreevy, famously called the stock exchange a casino and warned of the dangers now and again, when he was in the Minister of State’s seat, for ordinary consumers and for organisations trying to protect their savings, insurance, pensions and other financial products� Recently, we have seen widespread public revulsion at the phenomenon of family household mortgages being bought and sold and bundled into so-called financial instruments - the securitisation Deputy Burton referred to - to be traded on stock exchanges in the European Union, the US and Asia.
There is a strong public perception that financial markets have never been properly regulated and that there has never been any real accountability� The former Min- ister and Commissioner, Charlie McCreevy, was right that they are casinos where the house always wins and the punter is always at a loss� This perception is heightened by the horrors revealed in the financial crash of 2008 where leadership of banks such as Lehman Brothers in the US, Royal Bank of Scotland in the UK, Anglo Irish Bank and the Irish Nationwide Building Society in Ireland destroyed the credit and pensions of whole nations and in the case of the UK and Ireland had to be propped up at terrible and enduring cost to ordinary citizens� As a country we have been plagued for 40 or 50 years with a litany of insurance and financial scandals going right back to the 1970s, with the allied failure of the Central Bank and the Department of Finance to protect us as financial consumers throughout that period� The Markets in Financial Instruments Directive 2004/39/EC, MiFID I, preceded the finan- cial crash� MiFID I came into effect in Ireland on 1 November 2007 and was transposed via statutory instrument� MiFID I was the EU’s attempt to standardise regulation for investment services across EU member states but it was clearly a case of shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted� Certainly MiFID I seems to have had minimal effect in alleviating the wild- west banking and financial markets conditions which gave us a decade of austerity and poverty.
645 Dáil Éireann It is also striking that it is only now, a decade later, that amendments are being made by this Bill to MiFID II, the revision of MiFID I, to respond to the disastrous global financial crisis since 2008� MiFID II and its two linked pieces of EU legislation was transferred into Irish law by statu- tory instrument as the European Union (Markets in Financial Instruments) Regulations 2017, SI 357/2017, on 10 August 2017 and took effect on 3 January 2018� In Irish legislation, the Mar- kets in Financial Instruments and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2007 permitted criminal sanc- tions to be imposed for breaches of MiFID I rules� The Bill before us, the Markets in Financial Instruments Bill 2018, provides for a continuation of the same regime of criminal sanctions for serious offences under MiFID rules� MiFID II was to be transposed by all member states by 3 January 2017 and it seems that fears that the industry could not adapt in time to the MiFID II rules has led to this delay in implementation� The Minister of State might respond on the issue of whether Germany and the UK have received long derogations of 30 months from last Janu- ary� The UK will be a separate economic entity in March 2019 but Germany seems to have a special regime in this regard� The financial markets industry has apparently complained that MiFID II with its 1.7 mil- lion paragraphs is onerous and hugely time consuming with big hidden costs� The complaints of industry regulators such as Steven Maijoor of ESMA, the European Securities and Markets Authority, suggests there is dragging of feet on implementing the new legislation� Information on so-called dark pools, which Deputy Doherty referred to, or trading in private venues with prices being disclosed only after trades are completed, which is greatly discouraged by MiFID II, seems to be totally deficient.
Effects of the legislation that target conflicts of interest arising from how investment managers compensate brokers for research services have also been criti- cised by analysts who fear that investment managers will cut back on research from brokers and banks.

The most important issue there is a conflict of interest.
These types of concerns have been relayed to the Central Bank which has also heard that Irish firms which are part of interna- tional groups with broader group-wide MiFID II projects also have the additional responsibility of ensuring their Irish firms implement their own MiFID compliance steps at local level.

I echo the comments of Deputy Michael McGrath.

We do not seem to get the benefit of the single EU market in financial services.

We seem to have had much of the downside over the past decade.
Where are the benefits in terms of the interest rates and so on that we pay?
I welcome the key elements of the Markets in Financial Instruments Bill 2018, in particular section 5 which defines these markets and provides that a person guilty of an offence under the MiFID II rules is liable on conviction on indictment to a maximum penalty of €10 million and- or imprisonment for ten years� Section 6 empowers the Central Bank to charge fees in respect of its function under the MiFID II regulations of 2017, and section 7 amends schedule 2 of the Central Bank Act 1942 to ensure that the Central Bank’s powers will encompass EU legisla- tion� Section 8, amending section 2 of the Credit Reporting Act 2013, is very important and extends the definition of credit to include trade credit in the Central Credit Register in areas of loans, deferred payments and so on.
Section 9, on the expansion of the definition of “long-term financial service” to include life assurance products in line with the EU insurance regulations of 2015, is also noteworthy, and the statutory footing basis to enable the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman to respond to consumers’ complaints is very timely� Key elements of the MiFID regulations that are especially welcome include the extension of the pre and post-trade transparency rules provided for under MiFID I to include depository 646 3 May 2018 receipts, exchange-traded funds, ETFs, certificates and other similar financial instruments.
The new high frequency trading rules are also critical in our era of almost instantaneous information technology, IT, systems� The Minister of State referred to algorithms and modern computer systems that are capable of real-time trading� The corporate and product governance rules in MiFID II are also vital aspects of any type of fair financial market.
It is important that banking capital requirements provisions are now being extended to investment firms, that firms must have explicit arrangements for the governance of financial products and that staff incentives do not cause conflicts of interest.
The new trade repository rules with early consolidated tape of trade reports and the so-called best execution model from MiFID I requiring firms to take what are referred to as “all reasonable steps” to obtain best execution of their clients’ orders will also, it is hoped, make financial markets much less opaque.
A huge question over MiFID II and the legislation before us today is posed by Brexit� Con- cerns have been expressed in the European Parliament and elsewhere that Brexit risks reversing the impacts, such as they are, of MiFID I and MiFID II and about the idea that Brexiteers in particular have that the UK will become a huge offshore financial centre doing its own thing.

When we discussed insurance companies here recently, we saw the extreme closeness between the UK financial market and our own.
Kay Swinburne MEP, who helped to draft MiFID II, told a recent conference that, “All the work we’ve done over the last decade, fixing the finan- cial crisis, making the global system work, making that regulatory co-operation a day-to-day activity, is in danger of being lost�” A key part of the Brexit negotiations concerns the kind of access, and its cost, which London City firms will have to the EU after Brexit.

We discussed what Britain’s contributions would be post Brexit.
They will have to be significant if it wants to passport its financial companies into the EU.

We discussed this recently at the Oireachtas Se- lect Committee on Budgetary Oversight� The EU has indicated it will seek enhanced so-called “equivalence”, but it is difficult to say how this will be agreed and how Irish financial markets will be affected in any post-Brexit free-for-all� That is a heavy responsibility for the Minister of State and the Minister.
There is a real worry now also that the next financial crisis may come from the non-banking financial sector where EU and US regulators have struggled to keep up with rapidly changing markets� The Irish Stock Exchange now trades as Euronext Dublin and is 100% owned by Euronext, the leading pan-European exchange in the eurozone� These wor- ries about the impact of Brexit on MiFID II and this legislation are very real, and perhaps the Minister of State will give us the most up-to-date position in his reply� There are other concerns also about the operation of MiFID II since January� The European Securities and Markets Authority, ESMA, reported yesterday that less than 1% of bonds in the EU today are subject to the live reporting requirements in MiFID II which I referred to� ESMA said yesterday that in the first quarter, just 220 of the 71,000 bonds it monitors or 0.3% were liquid or traded enough to be subjected to the MiFID II rules� This report echoes other com- ments by ESMA over the lack of data for other key MiFID initiatives, including the curbing of share trading on the anonymous venues known as dark pools� Some analysts believe, however, that the number of bonds deemed liquid enough to be sub- ject to MiFID II’s reporting requirements are likely to rise as the quality of data improves� The Minister of State might comment on these aspects of the likely efficacy of MiFID II given the generally poor performance, or non-performance, of MiFID I� Some analysts are fearful also that research is starting to be restricted in small and mid-cap markets due to MiFID II and small investors will have much less data on which to base their investment strategies� I echo Deputy Burton’s comments on financial education for young people, particularly in light of the percep- 647 tion that, increasingly, people will be in charge of their own pension arrangements� Dáil Éireann UK and German regulations have also given extensions up to 30 months from 1 January for the implementation of MiFID II, and the Minister of State might comment on how that has operated here since January.
There have been many failures of financial regulation over the de- cades and we hope that this Bill and the attempt to bring accountability to this area will prove an important step in creating a situation such that we do not have to undergo this suffering again� Without wanting to stray too far off the subject of debate, we were due to debate this Bill last night but we spent between 3�5 and four hours debating a Bill which we had expected to deal with in the House in three or four hours the previous week� In other words, seven or eight hours have been spent on the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill 2017.
I deeply respect the right of all colleagues to have their say on all matters that affect their constituencies and people have spoken at length because the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill 2017 was recommitted.
03/05/2018AA00200An Ceann Comhairle: We are not here now to talk about the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill 2017� 03/05/2018AA00300Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: This is the first opportunity I have had to speak publicly to the Ceann Comhairle and it is----- 03/05/2018AA00400An Ceann Comhairle: The matter was discussed this morning at the Business Committee and a general approach was considered� 03/05/2018AA00500Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: I would hope that would be the case because the character of the debate was unfortunate and was very upsetting to relatives----- 03/05/2018AA00600An Ceann Comhairle: It is not appropriate to discuss it now� 03/05/2018AA00700Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: -----of the victims who were in the Gallery� Between 25,000 and 30,000 families have been profoundly affected by road crashes in the past ten years� I am glad to hear that the Ceann Comhairle and the Business Committee have taken an initiative to ensure that we can have a speedy debate� We could have dealt with this Bill and had more time for other activities and other parts of the Government’s agenda today� I welcome the Bill in front of us and I will support it� Although I am not a member of the Oireachtas Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, I hope to raise a couple of issues on Report Stage� 03/05/2018AA00800Deputy Mattie McGrath: I am tempted to reply to that� 03/05/2018AA00900An Ceann Comhairle: Please do not� 03/05/2018AA01000Deputy Mattie McGrath: I have known Deputy Broughan for a long time and I would never try to stifle him in a debate on serious issues.
We did not set out to upset anyone but only to represent our constituents� I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill� I do not see many here to speak on it and do not know what difference it would have made if we had debated it last night� This Bill is complex, like so many that have come our way from Europe, but it is not all bad� I refer in particular to the repeal and replacement of the criminal sanctions in section 3 that proposes to repeal section 5 of the Markets in Financial Instruments and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 648 3 May 2018 2007, which sets out the penalties for conviction on indictment of Irish investment services in law� This is very timely and ours is one of the last governments to comply with this� We saw the results of all that went on when the markets went crazy� The EU has to take some of the blame for that� The ECB and European banks continued to trade recklessly in respect of investments in our economy and then they fled, offering us a bailout which at the time I called a clean out� Interest was at almost 6% whereas the International Monetary Fund, IMF, gave it to us for less than 3%� Our true friends were scarce when we put out our hand for support� This should have been a costly lesson� We must play our part and close any loophole which enables high flyers and investors to benefit from financial schemes.
As stated by Deputy Thomas P� Broughan and others, transactions of massive scale can be made within minutes or hours such that it is very hard to have transparency and traceability� Many of the transactions can have sweeping effects on economies, businesses and ordinary people� As the explanatory memorandum makes clear, section 5 of the Bill proposes the reintro- duction of the same criminal sanctions, but they will now apply to relevant offences under the revised MiFID II rules� It is important to expand on this section� Section 5 of the 2007 Act provides that a person found guilty of an offence under subsection (2) is liable on conviction or indictment to a fine not exceeding €10 million or imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, or both� These are hefty penalties, but investigation of compliance can often be a mean- dering pathway� Perhaps the Minister of State, Deputy Michael D’Arcy, might tell us if there are jurisdictions in which there have been investigations, trials and successful prosecutions� The penalties set out in section 5 of the 2007 Act are without prejudice to penalties provided for in Irish investment services law� It is important there not be situations where this measure will interfere with penalties applicable on summary conviction for an offence or the ability to bring summary proceedings for any offence under Irish investment services law� I hope there will not be a conflation of the two and that people will not escape the full rigour of the law by virtue of there being two schemes� All of this is confusing for the lay person, including me, who is not versed in the detailed terminology of financial law which is very challenging to understand, unless someone is a legal or financial expert.
However, it is crystal clear that we need to ensure there will be robust sanc- tions in place for irregular and criminal actions within the European financial sector.
Deputy Thomas P� Broughan failed to mention that during our discussions last night on the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Bill 2017 which passed all Stages we discussed the issue of trace- ability and our ability to track down the financial geniuses who earned their wealth by way of crime� They have all the time in the world to prey on their victims and plan schemes to enable them to make lucrative investments abroad in wonderful places, using hotels and fancy gym facilities as fronts for their investments� Many of them are involved in ponzi schemes� We, therefore, need to ensure Interpol and other European agencies are active in this area� We also need to put our shoulders to the wheel in that regard� The Bill is relevant in that context at this time� Section 8 deals with the credit register, while section 9 provides that life insurance products will also be included, which is timely as many of us have been victims of small-scale schemes� Some of the bigger schemes needed to be regulated properly and brought in under the MiFID II rules� This is important in the context of corporate governance� We can have all of the corpo- rate governance rules we want, but we need to enforce them and ensure we also adhere to the spirit of the law� We have seen incidents of reckless trading, in respect of which there has been little or no corporate governance� The governance arrangements that were in place were scant 649 Dáil Éireann and there was little respect for them� There is always corporate governance when it comes to the small man and PAYE employees and so on, but when it comes to white collar crime and senior cavalier traders and big business, there is little success in holding them to account, as we have seen in the courts system� They play games of cat and mouse with State institutions, including the Garda Fraud Squad, the Criminal Assets Bureau and the prosecution service, and also hire the brightest and most expensive lawyers� We cannot allow this to continue� There must be some sense of parity and respect
 across the board for the rule of law� The Minister of State and I know, as does everybody else, that the con artists who participate in these ponzi schemes are way ahead of us� We are playing catch-up all of the time in legislation and in in- stances where we were successful, the penalties did not fit the crime.
I am delighted that there are strong penalties provided for in the Bill, but they will be of no use on the Statue Book if they are not implemented� While we must always respect people’s rights in that they are innocent until proved guilty, we need to be rigorous, vigorous and upfront in monitoring and ensuring oversight� Many of the watchdogs are not effective� We have too many agencies and there is too much criss-crossing� I am happy to support Deputy Michael McGrath’s proposed Bill on data protection� Elected representatives will be made redundant� We will be able to speak about issues in the House, but we will not be able to make representations on behalf of our constituents� The purpose of what is being proposed is to silence people and lock out the public in terms of their rights when it comes to banks and insurance and ponzi schemes� 03/05/2018BB00200Deputy Michael McGrath: Hear, hear� 03/05/2018BB00300Deputy Mattie McGrath: There will be no come-back� If we are not careful, we will be locked out from representing people, unfortunate individuals, whether they are self-employed or ordinary decent families who are trying to make a living� We are going down a very dan- gerous road in this legislation and other legislation yet to be introduced� I do not know if an analysis is ever carried out of the impact of some of the regulations passed by this House� Is provision made for a review of measures after six or 12 months to determine whether they are fit for purpose and having the desired effect because often they do not?
3 o’clock We need to ensure we have robust sanctions in place for irregular or criminal actions with the European financial sector.

As I said, this legislation is very confusing for the lay person who is not versed in the detailed terminology of financial law.
It is a matter for us, as legislators, to produce proper legislation and to follow through on it by way of its implementation� I note from Reuters news agency that regulators in the United States and Europe have imposed fines of $342 billion on banks since 2009 for misconduct, including violation of anti-money laundering rules, and that this figure is likely to increase to $400 billion by 2020.

They are staggering figures.


As I said, the fines were imposed by regu- lators in the United States and Europe� What have we done?

I have said previously that all we are doing is rubbing soap on the fat sows with no hair� We are praising them, not holding them to account and letting them off, never mind fining them.
I refer to the tracker mortgage scandal and the number of people who were overcharged� There was systemic overcharging of accounts� The banks do not care or give a toss� I know of many families, as I am sure Deputy Michael McGrath and other Deputies do, who are struggling to keep up their repayments at punitive interest rates� To be downright robbed from within the bank is shameful, but it is happening� When I was young the bank robbers were on the streets, occasionally with guns, and it was highway 650 3 May 2018 robbery� Now, however, it is happening secretly and silently from within the banks� I am not blaming the bank tellers or the managers we meet every day, I am blaming a serious deceit, a marauding undermining of people’s right to their proper interest rate and their right to have their accounts� In some cases money has gone missing from accounts or else it is invested in Ponzi schemes and I have heard of many such cases� Okay, the person had to sign up for those schemes but many people who signed up had no idea what they were signing up to and then the whole lot crashed and the money is gone� Like snow off a ditch, it has just disappeared� We still have these banks, in which the Minister of State and his Government have massive shareholdings, and we are looking at the sale of a lot of mortgage loans for houses, farms and businesses� As a shareholder the Minister was asked by a colleague of mine if he could stop those sales - because he can - and he said he would speak to them at the time but it was a matter for the banks to do all their business.
He would look at it when it was finished.
That, however, will be too late� It would be trying to close the stable door when the horse has bolted; way too late� We have seen too much of this� The European Parliament has noted: Due to the number and scale of cases in which banks were in recent years fined for mis- conduct, namely for the wilful or intentional disregard of laws, ethics or internal governance and controls, that issue has a potential to create systemic risks [to the banking sector]; the European Systemic Risk Board (ESRB) already published a dedicated Report on miscon- duct risk in the banking sector in 2015� That ESRB report was three years ago� Where is that report or what accountants have taken away the reports?
They may not build castles but is anything being acted on?

This is very serious and has the potential to create systemic risks in the banking sector and the European Systemic Risk Board has already published a dedicated report� Are we aware?

Are we sleep- walking into another devastating banking crisis?
We could very easily be doing so� One can walk out the front door here and see all the cranes in the city with development happening� We had boasted before about them but unfortunately they are not for houses or small businesses� All the development is for big investments� We welcome those investments also but in the city we have no room to breathe never mind to live� In its report the ESRB indicated that over a recent five-year period, the sum of fines has increased significantly reaching a cumulative total of around €200 billion for all banks and €50 billion for EU banks� This clearly indicates the need to not only reform but to introduce severe penalties� The facts are laid before us and the evidence is there� Ireland has been badly burned - scalded in fact - and we need to ensure we have the robust mechanisms in place and robust enforcement agencies to investigate and prosecute� Let it hurt where it should hurt - in their pockets.
It was fine to hurt the ordinary taxpayer when we had punitive taxation after the crash, but it does not hurt the board of directors if they do not feel it in their pockets� Now we see the audacity of bankers back clamouring for increased pay for their senior bankers� They have very short memories or else they think we are all fools� This is what they think� We have all been fools and the patsys for them, and they got away with it� On Tuesday we learned that KBC had a family in the courts seeking to purge the family’s contempt in the case of a house in Balbriggan� The law agents of this State broke into the house and they resisted, and the family ended up down in the courts� We are very good at that, we have all the power when it comes to the banks and all the State’s resources are used� The special 651 Dáil Éireann forces such as An Garda Síochána often give cover to what I would call marauding thugs who have no business in this country - some of them are ex-soldiers or mercenaries - and who per- petrate fear and terror on families� There is no place for that in our modern democracy but it is happening� There is very little solace for these families in the courts� If they go to the court as lay litigants they have no hope at all� It is the might of the law, the institutions and the regula- tors on the little people - na daoine beaga - and small businesses and farmers� When it comes to the big and powerful, however, the EU and the Irish institutions can be very slow, feeble, meek and inept in getting after them� Under our Constitution, it should be the same for everybody� I welcome the Bill and will support it but I would like to see some kind of review of it, and some kind of traceability as to its effectiveness� If it is not effective it needs to be beefed up further� 03/05/2018CC00200Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Michael D’Arcy): I thank all the Deputies for their contributions� I will respond in as much detail as I can� This legislation, the Markets in Financial Instruments Bill 2018,
 is very important� Ireland has developed a large financial services sector that is twice the size of the European average and employs more than 90,000 people in domestic and international financial services.
I will put this into context; it is broken down into 43,000 people who work on the international side and 47,000 people who work on the domestic side� This is the size of the sector� The sector provides two and half times the value of the agriculture and food sectors� There is €33 billion worth of exports from the international financial services sector and Ireland is the fourth largest exporter of these services in the European Union� Soon, when the British leave the EU, Ireland will be the third largest exporter� In this context, the legislation is very important� The process of reform has turned from crisis management into how financial markets can serve the broad policy objectives of jobs and growth� We believe that putting in place criminal sanctions for serious infringement of the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive, MiFID, rules will provide a deterrent effect against any blatant misbehaviour and thus promote orderly markets, market integrity and investor protection� Similarly the essential technical amendments to both the Credit Reporting Act 2013 and the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman Act 2017 are required to ensure that the central credit register and Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman cover the products envisaged by the Government when initially enacted� I am aware - and it has been mentioned by Deputies - of an issue around whole-of-life poli- cies and another issue relating to part of the definition where a product is clearly intended to be a long-term product but its term is not fixed.
My officials are in contact with the Office of the Attorney General and will continue to examine these issues; it may be that a Committee Stage amendment would be appropriate� I want to assure Members who raised the issue of the whole- of-life policies that officials from the Department of Finance will be available to try to ensure the spirit of co-operation that we all took on, between the Fianna Fáil Bill, the Sinn Féin Bill and subsequently the Government Bill, to try to put in place the best legislation� It was brought to my attention, almost immediately, that the whole-of-life products were not covered� I believe it came up in the Seanad debate after we had finished in this Chamber.
I am disappointed with that� I shall not pretend� We all acted in the best interest to make sure that as many products as possible were covered.

This has not been covered.
Officials from the Department of Finance will be available to whoever wishes to contact them to bring this to a conclusion� Deputies Doherty and McGrath outlined concerns for constituents� I have similar constitu- 652 3 May 2018 ents in my area who have outlined the issues around the whole-of-life products� I would like to see it concluded and we have the opportunity to do so now� I will try to touch on as many aspects of this as I can� Deputy McGrath spoke of the tracker scandal and holding people accountable� The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and the Department of Finance are ensuring this happens� The Minister has put a lot of effort and personal energy into this� I believe it is moving in the right direction because of the Minister’s intervention� Reference was made to engagement with the Central Bank in the context of white-collar crime� I do not see anything wrong with wanting that engagement� With regard to the capital markets and monetary union the Government believes it is crucial to move the Irish economy into the next phase� The next phase would mean a person could purchase a mortgage on the Continent at continental interest rates and purchase insurance on the Continent at continental rates� We are doing everything we can to ensure that it happens� We are hopeful that, within the next six to nine months before the end of this calendar year, there will be significant movement.
Approximately two thirds of the areas are now resolved.
There is a third still to be done� To be fair to the Bulgarian Presidency, it is something it has priori- tised and it is at the top of the priority list so that we have a Single Market in Europe for those products for the citizens of Europe� I touched upon the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman and the statutory limita- tions relating to that� In response to Deputy Pearse Doherty, the reason that primary legislation is required for this is that it is a criminal sanction� The previous legislation was transposed by statutory instrument and that is sufficient for the legislation.
Where there is criminal sanction, primary legislation is required� As for whether composite legislation is required, I do not know the answer to that� We can look at it� There is quite a lot of legislation moving through the Department of Finance at present� The Insurance (Amendment) Bill 2017 is one such Bill, on foot of the Setanta issue� Deputy Michael McGrath is eager to have that done� I wish to touch upon the shadow banking aspect of finance.
Figures are quoted to the effect that it is 25% of the sector, possibly as high as 30%� To put that into context with regard to the funding side in Ireland, there is €4 trillion under administration in Ireland� That is the level of funds that are traded� We are one of the largest trading centres in the world� I am concerned about it� It is a legitimate concern, not just of mine but of every central bank in the world that there is a sector that is unregulated to such a degree and we are continually playing catch-up� Central banks worldwide are doing their best to ensure that we are catching up� I have touched upon the fixed term, the whole-of-life policy and the mis-selling of products.
Nobody would be happier to see the conclusion of the tracker issue than us� Deputy Burton raised the issue of the Tobin financial transaction tax.
We have a stamp duty rate here of 1% on transactions that gathers in €428 million� We have a tax in place� Deputy Burton is talking about a tax that we cannot adopt on our own� There is a requirement for it to be international� We have seen this before with regard to digital taxation here in Europe� There needs to be a global impact from this taxation� The companies in question are global� They are not just based in one particular area and capital is very liquid� It can shift very quickly� On the credit register, I will ask officials from the Department to speak with the Central Bank� I do not know that it is available from the Central Bank for the Department of Finance to give out here� I am not able to answer that question� The credit register is there to outline 653 Dáil Éireann people’s credit history and nothing else� It is not there to make a determination as to whether it was a loan for a young person or not� That is outside its remit� I am not sure that a consumer information campaign is the role of the Department of Fi- nance� There are auspices within rural areas for people to engage in that� I do not have the answer for Deputy Broughan’s question about the UK and Germany and the period for non- implementation of MiFID II� We can try to get that information and make it available to the House, perhaps on Committee Stage� Deputy Broughan made a point about EU equivalence with the UK� That remains to be seen� We are getting close to the conclusion of the conversa- tion on Brexit discussions� As to whether there will be a trade deal including services, the Irish Government has been clear that we believe it is in everybody’s interest that we retain a close trading relationship with our UK counterparts, since there is a huge amount of crossover� When I say “we”, it is a European “we” and not just an Irish “we”� The UK will remain as a global hub for financial services.
There is no question about that.

That will not change.

It will lose some business because of the opportunity to passport into the free trade area that will be the EU 27� That is unquestionable� I have not touched on everything.

I am not sure how much time I have.

Since the financial crisis, there has been a substantial body of work with legislation coming from our European colleagues.
The legislative initiatives that have been put in place to ensure that the financial markets are more transparent and resilient, including the capital requirements directive, CRD IV, MiFID II, bank recovery and resolution, BRRD, and the benchmarking regulation, have all been transposed into Irish law in order that we are not behind the curve� I am very pleased with that.

The sanctions are significant, whether ten years in jail or €10 million.
Those are sub- stantial sanctions� That is why we must use primary legislation� I have touched on the Single Market and capital markets, and just about everything.
I thank the members of the finance committee, in particular relating to the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman Act 2017� Everybody worked well together and I think we can work equally well on this occasion to try to conclude the matter relating to whole-of-life policies� I think we can conclude that� Question put and agreed to� 03/05/2018DD00300Markets in Financial Instruments Bill 2018: Referral to Select Committee 03/05/2018DD00400Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Michael D’Arcy): I move: That the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach pursuant to Standing Orders 84A(3)(a) and 149(1)� Question put and agreed to� 03/05/2018DD00600Topical Issue Matters 03/05/2018DD00700An Ceann Comhairle: I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 29A and the name of the Member in each case: (1) Deputy Eugene Murphy - to discuss a review of mental health services in County Roscommon; (2) Deputies Michael Harty, Joan Collins, Mary Butler and Frank O’Rourke - the issue of the management of type 1 diabetes in Ireland with the Minister for Health; in particular to make available the new flash glucose technology FreeStyle Libre to all patients to allow them 654 3 May 2018 to actively manage their illness in a meaningful continuous way by giving real-time information on their glucose levels; (3) Deputy Seán Crowe - to discuss the capacity in the haemorrhage dialysis unit in Tallaght Hospital; (4) Deputy Peadar Tóibín - to discuss the status of equipment in use for echo cardiograms in County Meath; (5) Deputy James Browne - to discuss plans for the future of Rosslare Europort; (6) Deputy Fiona O’Loughlin - the withdrawal of operations by Coca Cola in Athy, County Kildare and the employment supports the Minister for Business, En- terprise and Innovation can provide; (7) Deputy Brian Stanley - to discuss the progress toward developing facilities at Kolbe special school, Portlaoise;
 (8) Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire - to ask the Minister for Education and Skills to discuss the announcement of new schools in the Cork area; (9) Deputies Jackie Cahill, Eamon Scanlon and Charlie McConalogue - to ask the Minister for Finance to explain why the rules and regulations on State procurement contracts offer no protection to local subcontractors in the event of the main contractor being unable to complete the contract as agreed with the State; (10) Deputy Martin Kenny - the matter of the threat to the Irish beef industry implied by the statements of some members of the British Gov- ernment that a levy would be imposed on Irish beef post Brexit and that a ban on live export of farmed animals would be imposed; (11) Deputy Clare Daly - to discuss the need to expel the Israeli ambassador in light of the illegal bombing in Syria; and (12) Deputy Mick Wallace - to discuss the Data Protection Commissioner’s ruling against NAMA in respect of the O’Flynn Group� The matters raised by Deputies Eugene Murphy, Seán Crowe, Peadar Tóibín and James Browne have been selected for discussion� 03/05/2018DD00800Report on the Provision of Foster Care Services in Ireland: Motion 03/05/2018DD00900An Ceann Comhairle: Táimid ag dul ar aghaidh go dtí an tairiscint maidir leis an tuarascáil maidir le seirbhísí cúraim altrama a sholáthar in Éirinn� Iarraim ar Chathaoirleach an chom- hchoiste, Teachta Alan Farrell, an rún a bhogadh� Tá deich nóiméad aige� 03/05/2018DD01000Deputy Alan Farrell: Go raibh maith agat� I will proceed in English because my Irish----- 03/05/2018DD01100An Ceann Comhairle: You are all right� 03/05/2018DD01200Deputy Alan Farrell: -----is terrible� I move: That Dáil Éireann shall consider the Report of the Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs entitled “Report on the Provision of Foster Care Services in Ireland”, copies of which were laid before Dáil Éireann on 9th November, 2017� I thank the Ceann Comhairle and Business Committee for the opportunity to
 present the report on foster care, which was published by the committee which I chair last year� Foster care is critically important in all aspects of children’s welfare in this State� The Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs heard from many groups and organisations when discussing the issues surrounding foster care, particularly with regard to the rights and welfare of the children involved� I commend every member of the committee, particularly my predecessor, the Minis- ter of State, Deputy Jim Daly, as well as the work of Deputy Funchion, who was rapporteur for this report� It is appropriate to mention the contribution and role that she and the former Chair- 655 Dáil Éireann man played� As part of its report into the provision of foster care services in Ireland, the joint committee made 12 recommendations to Government� These recommendations work to ensure the needs of children always come first.
As Members of this House, we have an obligation to ensure children in foster care receive the foremost levels of protection, and that is exactly what the Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs has sought to do in this report� The com- mittee has recommended that comprehensive data be collated regarding the type of care settings children are placed in, and the circumstances surrounding their placement in care� Tusla has stated that it is collating information on many aspects of children’s placement in foster care and that the full implementation of the national child care information system will support reporting on children in care and the foster system� Ensuring we have all relevant information is vital to adequately address the issues leading to children entering our foster care system but also in making sure the necessary supports are in place to support these young people� I am pleased, with regard to the third recommendation in this report, that the Adoption (Amendment) Act 2017 commencement order has been made, as of last October� This Act is particularly important in allowing foster carers to adopt foster children who have been in their care for a period of greater than 18 months, or in a set of other prescribed circumstances, where the required conditions are met� Most importantly, in certain cases that allows for greater sta- bility to be provided to children in the foster care system� Recommendation 4 focuses on the extension of enforcement powers to the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, to allow it to implement recommendations made in its reports, while recommendation 5 relates to the need to establish transparent and robust governance and oversight procedures between Tusla and private foster care companies, along with the immediate use of service level agree- ments in that context� I note that Tusla stated that providing HIQA with enforcement powers would increase the administrative burden faced by the organisation rather than benefit front-line services.
However, providing enforcement powers to HIQA would have significant benefits in ensuring children receive supports and care of the highest standard� If an administrative burden must be tackled as a result, the Government must tackle it separately� The sixth recommendation of the committee’s report on foster care is that emergency out of hours services should be provided in all parts of the country and urgent action taken to close gaps in the service and ensure emergency out of hours services are available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year� Our seventh recommendation addressed the issues of recruitment and retention of staff in Tusla� The report states that Tusla must continue to be creative in its approach on this matter� Working in conjunction with the HSE, it is vital that Tusla is adequately staffed and retains its current staff so that it does not lose the expertise which exists within the organisation� It would be counterproductive to have a scenario whereby staff working with children and young people in the foster care system are coming and going as that would detract from Tusla’s work and have an adverse impact on the delivery of front-line services� It is essential that all foster carers are assigned a link social worker to support them and that a dedicated social worker is provided to all children in care� As of September 2017, 90% of foster carers had a link worker and 96% of children in care had a social worker� However, it is unacceptable for even one carer or child to be without that support� A further recommendation of the committee is the co-location of gardaí and Tusla officials in specialist child protection units to counteract the gaps in the emergency out of hours services and aid inter-agency information sharing in the best interests of vulnerable young people� 656 3 May 2018 It is important that recommendations made in the audit report on section 12 of the Childcare Act 1991 are implemented within an agreed timeframe� I note that as of December 2017 Tusla had developed and submitted an action plan in that regard to the Department� In addition, the implementation of the signs of safety approach must be monitored and reviewed on an ongoing basis in order to ensure it continues to be fit for purpose.
One of the most important recom- mendations in the committee’s report relates to the need for measures to ensure vulnerable children are not returned to homes or circumstances from which they have been repeatedly been removed under section 12 of the Childcare Act 1991� It is shocking that such recommendation needs to be made in this day and age� Such situations cannot be tolerated and are contrary to the basic principles of child protection, common sense and decency� While discussing the committee’s report and the implementation of these recommenda- tions it is important to address the reality of our foster care system� A HIQA report yesterday identified serious issues with a private foster care service in Kildare.
Four people had filled the head role of the organisation in a 14-month period.
The company failed its inspection in five of the seven standards assessed and was deemed to be non-compliant� Some 15 placements with the foster care company ended in the past year, the majority in an unplanned manner� The as- sessments of foster carers carried out by the company were deemed by HIQA to be poor� The situation is nothing short of disgraceful� The committee raised questions in that regard in its report� However, it should not take revelations such as that to prompt action� The failure to address issues relating to private foster care companies must no longer be tolerated because it is a monthly reporting function from HIQA and has been a very regular occurrence since my appointment as Chairman of the committee last July� It would be remiss not to acknowledge the scandal which occurred in Galway, where three girls were failed by the HSE and our health system between 2005 and 2007 and subjected to sexual assault while in foster care, care deemed appropriate for them by the HSE at the time� No Member of this House, or anyone else in our society, could in any way justify those failings� We must not continue to allow the State and our health and foster care systems to continue to fail some of the most vulnerable children and young people in our society� We must immedi- ately address these issues� I wish to thank my colleagues from all parties and none for their very considerable efforts in the production of the report� I acknowledge the co-operation of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, the Minister, Deputy Zappone, HIQA and Tusla and thank them for their contributions to the overall process� I also acknowledge the many organisations and voluntary bodies which made very valuable contributions to the Houses of the Oireachtas by taking the time to make submissions or appear before the committee� 03/05/2018EE00200Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Deputy Katherine Zappone): I wish to begin by joining the Chair of the committee, Deputy Farrell, in acknowledging the shocking and disturbing
 child sexual abuse case related by a recent RTÉ programme� Three young girls who were in foster care and who should have been safe and protected from harm were horribly abused by the teenage son of their foster parents� Their trust was betrayed� It is essential for the victims and wider society that we establish the full facts and circumstances of that case and learn from it� To that end, this harrowing case was referred in April 2016 to the national review panel for investigation and that process is nearing completion� I updated the Taoiseach on that process this morning� I thank Deputy Farrell and all members of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and 657 Dáil Éireann Youth Affairs for the timely and topical report on the provision of foster care services in Ireland� The hearings of the committee provided a forum for those involved in foster care provision to highlight achievement and identify gaps in the system� I provided a detailed response to the is- sues raised in the report following its publication and am happy to update the House on progress since then� In February of this year, 6,161 children could not, for a variety of reasons, live with their parents and were in the care of the State� I am proud that the vast majority of those children, 92%, live in family environments and are cared for by foster carers dedicated to their well-be- ing� We have been at that level for several years� As indicated in my response when the report was published, improvement is needed in several key areas� I am happy to state that progress has been made in some such areas, while there are significant challenges to overcome in others.
I cannot address all the recommendations of the committee here, but I wish to address some of the more significant ones and update the House in that regard.
One encouraging and signifi- cant development since the publication of the report is the appointment of a dedicated national social work manager from Tusla to work with the Garda� I understand that An Garda Síochána is in the process of establishing child protection units in each of its divisions which will provide a structure for joint working in that sensitive area� The co-location of a social work manager with the Garda is intended to strengthen inter-agency collaboration, build relationships and data sharing and mitigate against the risks posed by the gaps in the emergency out of hours service� Progress on the provision of emergency out of hours service to all areas of the country is ongo- ing� A 24 hour emergency phone service which provides social work consultation to the Garda is available in all areas� A 24 hour social work service is currently in operation in Cork and the greater Dublin region, where it provides services to Dublin, Kildare and Wicklow� When fully operational later this year, a range of social work supports will be available and consultation and advice will be offered to An Garda Síochána� Most importantly, the service will provide a 24-7 telephone social work support service for foster carers� As the Chairman stated, the committee was also concerned with costs and governance of the private foster care sector� A relatively small number of the children are placed with private foster carers� The latest available data relate to February this year and show that there are 390 children in private foster care placements out of a total of 5,683 children in foster care� Infor- mation from Tusla tells us that the children in care are in stable placements or as far as possible are being cared for in their local area, and the majority are in education� By and large, children in foster care do well and that is in large part due to the dedication of our foster carers� I am aware of the criticisms of the governance and management structures, in particular of the foster care committees, that have emerged
 in recent Health Information and Quality Author- ity, HIQA, inspections� I agree that is not good enough and needs to be improved� The foster care committee’s role in approving foster carers, reviews, re-vetting and monitoring is essential� Tusla is taking steps to strengthen these committees and has put in place revised guidance for their operation� When HIQA representatives appeared before the committee they indicated that they would like to see increased powers to oversee Tusla’s role in foster care provision, something to which the Chairman referred in his remarks� That would most likely build on the existing regulations� My Department is in correspondence with HIQA to gain an insight into the scope of those changes, and I will keep the House informed of the outcome of those discus- sions� Children may be placed in private foster care for a number of reasons� It may be in an emer- 658 3 May 2018 gency situation or because they have particular needs that cannot be met by a general foster care placement, or there may not be a Tusla foster care placement available in their locality� I should point out that the costs associated with a private foster care placement are inclusive of costs that also apply to a statutory placement� These include the recruitment and assessment of potential foster carers, the cost of a link social worker for the foster carer and also training for foster carers� All of these are essential elements of both public and private placements� Ultimately, the key to reducing the number of private placements lies in the ability to recruit foster carers in appropriate locations and with the appropriate capacity to care for the children not currently fostered within the statutory provision� I urge anyone who is thinking of fostering to contact their local Tusla office and explore the possibilities with them� All general foster carers are fully assessed, vetted and approved before a child is placed with them� The majority of foster carers have both
 a link social worker and the child’s social worker visiting regularly� In a small number of cases, there may be one social worker allocated for a placement� When a child in foster care does not have an allocated social worker or a foster carer does not have a link worker, measures are put in place to provide a social work service to both� The local duty social work team provide support to children in care and to foster carers� Children in foster care are prioritised to ensure that those in unstable placements, those about to enter aftercare or children who are in care less than six months are not left without social work support� At a local area level, the fostering teams respond to unal- located foster carers as issues or queries arise� These measures are not a substitute for allocated social workers to both child and the foster carer, but they do ensure that there is a social work service involved in each placement� The committee was also concerned about the recommendations in Dr� Geoffrey Shannon’s audit report, particularly An Garda Síochána’s use of section 12, to which the Chairman re- ferred� I receive regular updates on that in regard to the plan I drew up with Dr� Shannon, but one of the concerns raised in the audit report, which was also raised in the joint committee’s report, was that vulnerable children are being returned repeatedly to the same circumstances� It was raised again here� The issue has been included in the research Tusla has commissioned into the handling of cases where a child came into Tusla’s custody following the use of section 12 by An Garda Síochána� I expect that research will bring clarity on the extent to which that is happening, and the circumstances in which it occurs� The committee also called for improvements in the collation of comprehensive data on foster care services� I can assure the committee that my Department already receives a com- prehensive range of data from Tusla on children in care, the types of care provided,
 including private placements, the number of children in care with written care plans, the number of refer- rals to child protection services, the allocation of social workers and the numbers waiting for allocation� Many of these data are published on the Tusla website and are freely available� My officials use the data to monitor significant changes and emerging monthly, quarterly and an- nual trends.
I am confident that further improvement will be realised through the introduction and full implementation this year of the national child care information system� I had a man- agement board meeting with my team earlier this morning and there is confirmation that Tusla is on target in regard to rolling this out� This will include a view of re-referrals of children and give a picture in terms of the children throughout the 17 areas� The system will provide my Department with more detailed reports about children in care, and bring greater clarity to the scale and impact of our care services� There is much to do to ensure that we maintain the high quality of foster care placements to 659 Dáil Éireann children needing the care and protection of the State� I welcome the work of the joint committee and I look forward to hearing the Deputies’ comments on this very important issue, especially in light of the time that has passed since the committee published the still very relevant report� 03/05/2018FF00200An Ceann Comhairle: I thank the Minister and the Chairman� 03/05/2018FF00300Deputy Anne Rabbitte: I thank the Chairman and the Minister for their opening state- ments� The report represents a huge body of work� The Chairman was right to acknowledge the role of the rapporteur, Deputy Funchion, in bringing it front and centre� I found it an en- lightening experience because it was something about which I did not have great knowledge� The most important point is that it put a spotlight on the great work done by foster care families� The Minister’s good colleague from the Department, whose name I cannot remember at the moment, and I attended an Empowering People in Care, EPIC, conference at which we sat on a stage in front of various children� I will always remember the number - 6,344� A fantastic lady came forward who told her story through song, dance and literature, and it was absolutely amazing� It was all about her experience in care� When I and the Minister’s colleague left the conference that day, there was an
 undertaking and a willingness on our part that we would be the voice for those people� Those young people took the microphone that day, and they do not understand the difference between a Deputy, a Minister, a Senator or the lady in the Depart- ment, but they felt their voices were not being heard� All they wanted to know was that they had a voice.
To be considerate to the EPIC organisers on that day, they let the debate flow and allowed the young people and their foster care parents have a say� That instilled in me the need to ensure that we should do whatever we can do to let them have that voice� I am very glad that our committee facilitated that opportunity� It was important for us to be able to deliver a message for those young people because they had issues to raise� That is addressed in the 12 points in the report� As members of an Oireach- tas committee, we have identified various issues that they highlighted about their care and af- tercare plans� They made the point that if they were to engage in education, given that a person may not make the right choice in the first subject they select, they could pursue education again.
Their greatest fear is that they would fall off the wagon, so to speak, in regard to education� Foster care parents were worried about that also because they wanted to support these children and give them every chance to get an education� That was a major worry on the day� Another issue was voiced by foster parents on the day� With the current housing crisis they said they would have no problem building on additional units or capacity to their properties� If there was a grant available similar to the housing adaptation grant for older persons or persons with disabilities, they were prepared to build what those of us in the country would call a lean-to onto the house if they wanted to foster another child.
They were open and flexible in wanting to help� It is important to acknowledge the good work done by EPIC, Youth Advocate Programmes, YAP, Ireland, the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, ISPCC, and all the other agencies which provide support for foster care parents� The critical point they made con- cerned the support they felt they were getting nationally from Tusla� They were critical of the fact that they did not have the link workers, the social care workers or the aftercare plans� In the context of recommendation No� 7, we know that there is a problem in the recruitment and retention of staff which is affecting the most vulnerable children in foster care� We must 660 3 May 2018 also examine the supports for staff to enable them to do their work, including ICT facilities� I raise this issue on a regular basis because how staff on the ground communicate with central base is critical� If a child moves from Galway to Dublin, the relevant data should not solely be in paper files but also stored electronically.
The Minister said new ICT systems were being rolled out, which is welcome because it was a major criticism in the report� It is really positive to see improvements being made in that regard� In terms of there being specific committee meetings, the presentation made by Dr. Geof- frey Shannon, the special rapporteur on child protection, was fantastic, particularly the body of work he did on the use of section 12 of the Child Care Act� For me he opened up a new way of understanding children in vulnerable circumstances� I sit on the joint policing committee, JPC, in Galway and must compliment the Garda division in that county� We now receive an audit and quarterly reports on the use of section 12 by the Galway division.
In the first quarter of this year the provisions of section 12 were used seven times� The report from An Garda Síochána does not go into great detail, but at least we know how many families were vulnerable� Fol- lowing his presentation, I was equipped with the tools which enabled me to ask at a local level for support for vulnerable children� I recommend that all Oireachtas Members who sit on JPCs throughout the country engage with journalists, county councillors and other JPC members in order that they will all understand what section 12 means� I was able to educate my fellow JPC colleagues, for which I have the Oireachtas committee to thank� The information that came from the particular meeting was startling, as was the information on the out-of-hours service� I note that three counties will benefit initially from closer co-operation between An Garda Síochána and Tusla� The lack of cross-departmental co-operation was very evident from nu- merous presentations made to the committee� I must compliment the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs on the work her Department has done to build a bridge because that is the only way we will be able to support young people properly� We have to be the bigger person and identify where the system is not working and bring all Departments on board� The wonder- ful thing about the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs is that it works with so many Departments� A lot of them can work without the committee but it cannot work without them� It depends on seven Departments, but interdepartmental co-operation has been a failure in some respects� That failure was not the result of an unwillingness on the part of any group� On the level of co-operation between An Garda Síochána and Tusla, somebody had to make the decision that they would work together and bring it all into play� That has happened and I really look forward to the national roll-out in that regard� At a recent meeting of Galway JPC I asked when it would be rolled out in my county� It will be rolled out
 and there is an awareness of it, as well as huge hope� I am glad that the Minister, Deputy Katharine Zappone, and Deputy Alan Farrell both touched on the Galway abuse case which happened in my constituency� As I have raised it as a Topical Issue matter on two occasions, I will not go into the details of it again today� It is important to point out, however, that it happened when the foster care system was under the governance of the HSE� I hope lessons have been learned and that the mistakes will not be repeated� No one who watched the horrific television programme would want any child in care to be subjected to anything like what was described� In that context, HIQA needs stronger statutory powers� It does not have the teeth it requires at this time� It is carrying out all of the inspections and conducting review after review, but, regrettably, the findings are still the same.
When it began carrying out inspections, the first reports we saw were very concerning and, in some instances, shameful� Simple, basic things were wrong that should not have been wrong� Even basic things 661 Dáil Éireann such as Garda vetting had not been carried out.
However, 12 months on from the first reports we are still seeing issues repeated and lessons not being learned� Garda vetting does not take 12 months to complete� There is a process in place and when one applies for Garda vetting, it works well and does not take anything like 12 months to complete� In that context, why are the basic problems which are highlighted continuously not being addressed?
There is no need for that to happen� If we are not getting the most basic fundamentals right, how can we expect to tackle the huge non-compliance issues?
One of the latest reports highlighted nine areas, in one of which there was compliance and in another semi-compliance, but in the remaining seven there was major non-compliance� It should be the other way around� We should be making progress, but it seems that we are not, which is regrettable� As the Minister pointed out, we need more foster care families and to support them if we want to give children a second chance� We must ensure they are in the best possible place - a home setting� In that context, Tusla must make foster care a priority in order that foster carers will be able to proudly identify as a group within the care sector that does its job well, rather than a group that is in the public eye for all of the wrong reasons� I thank everyone on the Oireachtas committee for giving me the opportunity to work on the report� I really enjoyed it� The 12 recommendations made should be kept front and centre and reassessed on an annual basis.
It would be beneficial to invite representatives of HIQA to ap- pear before the Oireachtas committee again to see how best we can move forward, given what we have learned in the past 12 months� 03/05/2018GG00200Deputy Denise Mitchell: I welcome the report and the recommendations contained therein� The work on it had been largely completed before I joined the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs, but I express my thanks to those members who worked on the report.
It does a very good job in reflecting the concerns representatives from all parties and none have about the state of the foster care system� I strongly support the recommendation that a value for money review be carried out of the use of the six private foster care companies and that Tusla focus more on recruiting foster carers directly� As mentioned, concerns have been raised in the latest HIQA report about two of the aforementioned foster care companies� We all know that there is a shortage of foster parents� This shortage means that children are often placed with foster parents who live very long distances away from where they were based origi- nally� This creates huge problems when it comes to going to school and retaining links with friends and relatives� This issue needs more attention� The issue of data collection is one that concerns me greatly because, as I said to the Minister earlier this week, we need all of the facts when making decisions on funding and resources� If we lack data, it is difficult for us to make informed decisions on issues.
I, therefore, wel- come the recommendation calling for Tusla to be more transparent when it comes to precise breakdowns on the types of care settings in which children are placed and the circumstances surrounding them� Unfortunately, when I have looked for data on some of these issues, I have been told that Tusla does not have it, which is concerning� Tusla, in its response to the committee on the report, said some data are collected quarterly but not published, while other data will be published when the national childcare information system is fully implemented� The Minister said the agency would put the information on its website� The most recent annual review of adequacy report was published online in 2015� The Minister receives a copy of the report every year under section 8 of the Child Care Act 1991� This highlights the problem� In some cases, there seems to be a closed loop when it comes to 662 3 May 2018 Tusla data� The information is forwarded by Tusla to the Department and, in turn, to the Minis- ter but those of us outside the loop are left in the dark� Hopefully, that will be addressed� I refer to the issue raised in recommendation No� 7, which calls on Tusla to be “creative” when it comes to the recruitment and retention of staff� We all recognise that this is not just about funding� According to the recent business plan published by Tusla, it expects an under- spend of €11.4 million in respect of pay this year.
There are major difficulties retaining and recruiting staff� This issue is raised with the Minister on a regular basis and she is doing her best to address it� Creative thinking is needed because Tusla staff are under immense pressure, and it is not surprising that many are leaving their roles� Pay and conditions need to be examined as a matter of urgency, because we cannot continue to lose staff� This is not just a matter of cases piling up� Social workers and link workers build fantastic relationships with children in care and with foster families but all that is lost when one of them leaves and everyone has to start over again� It can take a long time for a child to build a similar relationship again� We need to focus on recruitment and retention of staff because these children need continuity� I understand Tusla established a workforce planning unit to examine this issue, and it would be a great help if we could be given information on how that process is going and if more supports are needed� There is a major issue with the casual use of voluntary care agreements for long periods� It is deeply unfair on children to be placed with families on such an agreement for the duration of their childhood and to be told at the age of seven or eight that they will be removed from the family they have known all their lives.
It is a difficult issue but I urge the Minister to discuss it with some of the groups that represent young people in care� While most of these agreements are only supposed to be used for a short period, there are instances where they are used when another care order would have been more appropriate� This is partly down to Tusla trying to avoid legal costs and the increased workload that securing those care orders can involve� Overall, I welcome this report� The recommendations are workable, and I recognise that some are being implemented� It must be remembered that children in foster care are some of the most vulnerable in society� Everything needs to be done to ensure they are safe and to provide them with safety and certainty� The report predated the disclosure regarding the foster home in Galway� Everybody was disgusted when they watched the recent “RTE Investigates” programme into the failures of the HSE when it came to the abuse of children in foster care in Galway� We need to hold people accountable for leaving children in a foster home where abuse was taking place� The public are sick and tired of the lack of accountability in respect of this issue� We need clear answers, transparency and accountability in order that we can protect children in care� 03/05/2018HH00200Deputy John McGuinness: I welcome this timely report� I read through the recommen- dations and commentary as I waited to contribute to the debate� I will relate my experience of dealing with Tusla, about which I spoke to the Minister previously, the files it creates and its activities in respect of foster families� Questions are raised with us at our clinics along with complaints about the agency and how foster families are treated, and complaints from the families from whom children have been taken.
I understand the confidentiality requirements around these issues but some way has to be found for Oireachtas Members who have been ap- proached about them to make representations to a secure unit within her Department in order that we at least know the rights and wrongs of the issues we have raised are being dealt with� Unfortunately, my experience is that that does not happen� Vulnerable families who are worried about their children and who are seeking their return want to know what is going on� When they make a complaint, that cannot be processed.
I find that difficult to take when I am dealing 663 Dáil Éireann with vulnerable families and young children� Will the Minister address the issue of allowing access to representation through Members, bearing in mind the confidential nature of the issues being raised?
I understand that indemnity for foster families was not included when responsibilities in this area were transferred to Tusla and, therefore, no indemnity is in place for these families� This has been brought to my attention by the Irish Foster Care Association, which has been lobbying for the reinstatement of the indemnity� Will the Minister explain why there is no cover and what will be done about that?

Has every foster family been advised of this through the association?
Have families who are not members of the association been informed that they are not covered by insurance?
It is a concern and I ask the Minister to deal with it� I share the concerns expressed by colleagues about private companies in that there is a need for accountability and transparency in this area, and the public needs to be reassured regarding transparency� 4 o’clock In the event of siblings being separated, is there a register which clearly indicates where brothers, sisters and members of the same family are taken into care?
At least with such a register we would know where they are being placed and there would be a history of care� This concerns the rights of those individual family members to know the whereabouts of other members who are being cared for� That right should exist and somebody within Tusla should ensure that the entire family picture can be put in place� Where is such registry data collected?

If it is not being collected, why is that the case?
If it is, to what extent is it being collected and how transparent is the process?
I will comment on vulnerable families going to court� We spoke earlier of the HSE but the people to whom I refer feel completely out of their depth because of the confidential nature of the system and the weight of the legal process on the side of the State and the Department� In some instances, these people feel it is almost impossible to get appropriate representation for those who require it� Something must be done to strike a balance between the State having all the representation and the families concerned having some members taken from parents� They should be properly represented in the court system� 03/05/2018JJ00200Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Deputy Katherine Zappone): I appreciate all the comments and questions from Deputies and I acknowledge the great contribution made by this report� It has informed all of us about the great elements of the system, particularly the foster care families and carers themselves, as well as the gaps that still exist� I will address specific issues that were raised.
Deputy Rabbitte referred to a number of the 12 points and it is helpful that the report was so clear and concise in its recommendations� It is why we are able to respond as we are� Deputies Rabbitte and Mitchell mentioned the importance of data collection� Tusla is mov- ing on in this regard with ICT systems being rolled out throughout the country� Deputies noted that there is still a challenge in this area and spoke about the importance of transparency and accessible information� We made the decision on the national roll-out for social workers, and they are trying to focus on their practice� It is not that they are not collecting data at a local level but we are waiting for the full roll-out of the other system in order that they can focus on practice instead of completing more paperwork� Deputies asked about what is on the website and also about the 2016 annual review that recently arrived into the Department� Most of the 664 3 May 2018 information from the annual review is already on the Tusla website� As we are waiting for the full system to be rolled out, I ask that if Deputies have any specific questions or concerns, they should contact me and we can follow through on them� Our hope is that the system will be more transparent when it is completed� Deputy Rabbitte referred to the movement to inter-agency co-operation between the Garda and Tusla� It is great to hear that the Deputy knows of a local and regional response in the form of the joint policing committees she mentioned� We still have a way to go in that regard� We are changing the cultures of two major agencies and institutions in order to ensure that they work together� There were concerns in respect of recruitment and retention and I addressed those, and other matters, in the House recently� The Deputies referred to creativity, which is required, and I spoke about the workforce strategy currently being worked on very carefully� Particularly in the context of retention, some of the key issues for social workers include being able to man- age caseloads, having good supervision and seeing administrative supports and information technology.
Those specific issues are being worked on in the workforce development strategy.

Deputy McGuinness raised the matter of insurance or indemnification.

My understanding is that the individual cases will be underwritten by the State while my Department is sorting out the indemnity issue� It is working on that� The Secretary General of my Department has reas- sured the Irish Foster Care Association of this so if there is a difficulty or problem, there will be indemnification as cases come up.
It is an interim solution and a longer-term solution is being worked on as we speak� All cases in foster care are currently being dealt with on an individual basis.

There should not be any concern about this.
My officials are working with other Depart- ments to put in place that scheme� It is more complicated than initially anticipated� Deputy McGuinness began by asking about finding a way in which Members of the Oireach- tas can make representations regarding what comes to them in the form of complaints, specifi- cally in respect of vulnerable families� The Deputy raised this matter with me previously� I brought it to the attention of officials in the Department and I will have to do so again.
The questions raised by the Deputy are reasonable and we should see if there is potential for moving in different ways� Much of the system is good and we respect and want to find greater ways to support the fos- ter care families.
Significant improvements must be made in the foster care system, and HIQA is demonstrating that� I am in conversation with the authority about giving it more powers regarding Tusla� Members referred to recent HIQA reports and I am also very disappointed by the inspection findings, particularly those concerning the two foster care companies.
I have di- rected my officials to find out the full facts of Tusla’s arrangements in placing children through private companies� They will report to me on all issues outlined in the inspection reports� I have also been informed that Tusla is not making any new placements of children with Care Visions Fostering Ireland, which is one of the companies identified.

No new referrals will be made until the company is fully compliant with standards.
It is essential that Tusla is satisfied that every company has competent and reliable leadership and management structures� Many of the failings outlined in these reports are a direct result of problems at that level� In regard to those two recent reports, I have directed my officials.

03/05/2018KK00200Deputy John McGuinness: Will the Minister comment on the register of siblings?
I thank the Acting Chairman for his indulgence� 03/05/2018KK00300Deputy Katherine Zappone: I believe the Deputy asked whether there is a register in order 665 that people will know where their children are� 03/05/2018KK00400Deputy John McGuinness: Yes, I did� Dáil Éireann 03/05/2018KK00500Deputy Katherine Zappone: I do not know if there is a register but we can find out.
The practice is for a foster care family to care for two children� Sometimes there is an exception to move to three but that is on a case-by-case basis� However, when and if siblings have to be separated, steps are taken to maintain contacts across the family groups� Social workers spend a considerable amount of time making that happen� There is a register of all children in care and all details are recorded.
That is the specific answer to Deputy McGuinness’ question� If siblings have to be separated for good reasons - sometimes there are good reasons - social care workers are in contact and work diligently to ensure as much contact as they can with the families� Question put and agreed to� 03/05/2018KK00700Topical Issue Debate 03/05/2018KK00800Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach): We may give some latitude on the order of debate� If Deputy Seán Crowe and Peadar Tóibín are ready, in the absence of the others, we will make a start� 03/05/2018KK00900Hospital Services 03/05/2018KK01000Deputy Seán Crowe: I am not sure how up to date the Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, is with the dialysis situation in Tallaght Hospital� It is the regional centre of excellence for the Dublin Midlands hospital group and provides regional services such as 24-hour acute kidney dialysis care and home dialysis therapies� The demand for haemodialysis continues to grow as predicted by the national renal office and Tallaght Hospital’s in-house assessments.
Dialysis activity at Tallaght Hospital has increased to more than 30,000 dialysis treatments per year� It has a designed capacity for 9,000 treatments a year� However, it has to deal with 30,000 treatments� The remainder were delivered in satellite dialysis units� That is basically private and costly� That is double the national average� Satellite dialysis units cannot cover complex medical diseases� Tallaght Hospital provides end-stage kidney disease management for St. James’s Hospital.
International best practice has mandated specific guidelines in regard to isolation facilities, patient segregation and wash facilities etc� to prevent hospital-acquired infections and blood-borne virus infections in haemodialysis units� These guidelines were ad- opted in 2006� New dialysis units have been commissioned and opened in other areas but the problem with Tallaght is that it is clearly not suitable� Tallaght Hospital’s in-centre haemodi- alysis unit is not compliant with these 2006 guidelines.
There is insufficient space around each dialysis station� The heart of the matter is that there was an agreement to go ahead with the new unit� It was agreed in 2017 and then cancelled in January 2018� It is impacting on patients� The strategy behind it does not make sense.
The unit in Tallaght has insufficient capacity to meet require- ments and is not compliant with the Department of Health� There is also a shortage of capacity 666 3 May 2018 to deliver high dependency dialysis in the region� It does not make sense that the Health Ser- vice Executive, HSE, in its wisdom decided not to go ahead with this� I hope in her answer that the Minister of State will have some reasons why this is the case� Deferring this project will reverse the effect of the care provided to patients from south Dublin, Wicklow, Kildare, Laois and Offaly with end stage kidney disease� All new patients who enter dialysis will have to receive haemodialysis in contracted satellite services� I asked how much we were paying for these private dialysis services� I got a response from the Minister of State’s Department and the answer for 2017 was €4�056 million� That does not include transport costs for dialysis patients, which was €1�2 million� It impacts on patients but it also impacts on the costs and the staff within the hospital� I cannot understand why the project has not gone ahead� We need answers� The space is there� It is ready to go� I talked to the local authority and there are no difficulties with planning permission.
It is up to the HSE and, more importantly, the Minister to explain why the project has not gone ahead and when it will� 03/05/2018KK01100Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Catherine Byrne): I am sorry that the Minister, Deputy Simon Harris, cannot be here� I will take the opportunity to read the statement I have been given and then come back on some of the points that Deputy Crowe has raised� The Minister, Deputy Harris, is aware that the Deputy has some concerns about the dialysis services in the Tallaght region� However, he can be assured that this is a matter the Department of Health, the HSE and the Dublin Midlands hospital group are working to address� Demand for haemodialysis nationally has been increasing in recent years� There was an average 5�6 % increase in dialysis treatments delivered by Tallaght Hospital over the past five years.
There are currently approximately 220 patients receiving haemodialysis treatment and a further 40 patients receiving home dialysis therapy under the care of Trinity Health Kidney Centre and Tallaght Hospital� I understand from the HSE that in 2017 there were 27,686 in-centre haemodialysis treat- ments� Those provided in Tallaght Hospital numbered 12,545, and those outsourced to satellite units under the governance of Tallaght Hospital numbered 15,141� In addition to this, there is an acute dialysis service in St James’s Hospital that operates under the common governance model and common policies of the Trinity Health Kidney Centre� Tallaght Hospital is currently the second largest provider of haemodialysis in the country� The unit, with dialysis beds, is open seven days a week and almost all the growth in dialysis activity over the past few years has occurred in the satellite units� The requirement for additional capacity for dialysis at Tal- laght is acknowledged� The proposed new renal dialysis project to double the capacity at Tallaght Hospital is in- cluded in the national development plan� The new unit will not solely focus on increased capac- ity but also on enhancing the model of care, with particular emphasis on home and self-care� It will build on the existing status as a national home therapies centre� On the development of re- nal services overall, the Deputy may be aware that the HSE national renal office was established on World Kidney Day 2009 to provide governance, integration and leadership in developing a national framework for delivering renal services in Ireland� The service planning and decision- making processes for allocation of resources are informed by the work of the renal office and its recommendations on future national renal priorities, based on clinical need and ongoing collec- tion of epidemiological practice and outcome data� The overall aim is to develop networks of 667 Dáil Éireann appropriately designed and maintained hospital dialysis facilities, with adequate inpatient, out-
 patient, laboratory and radiology facilities to support patient care in a fully integrated manner� The Minister for Health is aware of the current demands on the renal services at Tallaght hospital and the requirement for expansion of dialysis capacity to accommodate the growth in demand� The Department of Health and the HSE are working to address the capacity necessary to meet this demand� 03/05/2018LL00200Deputy Seán Crowe: I have read the reply but it does not outline why the decision was made to go ahead and then cancel.
The information I have suggests there is insufficient capac- ity to cope with clinical requirements� The service is not compliant with Department of Health infection guidelines� There is a shortage of capacity to deliver high-dependency dialysis in the region� I could go on� This represents an unacceptable clinical risk to patients and increases costs, with funding being diverted to the private sector� The contents of the reply do not add up� The situation is resulting in an increase of inappropriate use of intensive care unit beds� We need to get our act together� I know the Minister for Health has been to the hospital and has looked at the dialysis unit� Anyone who has visited the hospital would argue that the service is insufficient and not up to standard.
The staff are doing great work but it is clear that this unit has seen its day� I am concerned about cross-infection� If the unit is not compliant with Department of Health infection guidelines, then there is a responsibility on us to move ahead� I accept that the Minister of State does not have the answer to when this will proceed� She referred to plans for the future� Does that mean next year or this year?

Will it be in ten or 20 years?


The Department plan for the future is mapped out over a long period of decades� When is this plan going ahead for a new dialysis unit, one clearly needed in Tallaght and the regional health area, which covers Laois, the midlands, Wicklow and so on� I trust the Minister of State has some sort of reply for me.

This matter needs to be addressed.
This is an ongoing difficulty which impacts on patients, their families and the staff of the hospital and it needs to be resolved now rather than later� 03/05/2018LL00300Deputy Catherine Byrne: I do not have the actual answers to the questions posed by Dep- uty Crowe� However, I assure him that I am well aware of the renal dialysis services in Tallaght because a member of my family is there on a daily basis� I do not have a date and time� I have only been given what I have been given by the Department and the Minister’s office.
Having said that, I will relay some of Deputy Crowe’s concerns to the Minister and ask him to reply to the Deputy directly because I do not have the relevant time and date� There is a need for this� It has been acknowledged that there are some concerns� I do not have the exact answers to the Deputy’s questions but I will pursue the matter for him through the Minister’s office.
I will ask the Minister to get in touch with him directly� 03/05/2018LL00400Hospital Equipment 03/05/2018LL00500Deputy Peadar Tóibín: I understand that the Minister for Health is very busy� There is no doubt about that in light of the current crisis� When we raise Topical Issue matters, however, it is important that we hear from someone of whom we can ask questions and who can provide answers.
I mean no criticism of the Minister of State - she is fulfilling her role and I understand that� 668 3 May 2018 Navan hospital is a great facility� It provides top-quality healthcare to thousands of patients in County Meath every year� It is a vital part of the health service in the county� The population of Meath is increasing rapidly, with a little under 250,000 people living there at the moment� The staff at the hospital do a tremendous job caring for patients and their work is of the high- est standard� It has not been easy for them because they have had to operate in the shadow of significant cuts in recent years, including cuts to staffing numbers as well as in respect of the machines and technology with which they work� In recent weeks, a problem has come to my attention� A general practitioner called me and said that he had received an echocardiogram report from the hospital that included a disclaimer� The disclaimer indicated that the health professional could neither stand over the quality of the machine nor the quality of the report� I investigated the source of this� I found out that the machine was outdated� Navan hospital had put in an application for the machine to be replaced in early 2016 but it was not replaced until late 2017� During that period, a total of 2,500 echo- cardiograms were carried out� Many, if not all, of the reports had a disclaimer from a senior medical professional stating that the quality of the echocardiogram could not be stood over� I approached the HSE on the issue� Let us bear in mind that an echocardiogram machine is im- portant equipment� It allows doctors to understand the way the heart of a patient moves and the strength of the pumping� It also allows them to ensure that the valves in the heart are working correctly and works out whether blood is leaking backwards through those valves� It works out whether the valves are too narrow� It can actually work out whether there are tumours or infec- tions growing around the heart valves� This is critical technology� It is a
 critical diagnostic tool in an area of medicine that is criti- cal for the survival of the individual in future� We know that a request was made to replace this out-of-date machine over a long period but it was not replaced� We know that health profes- sionals in Navan hospital were forced to keep using the machine� However, the medical profes- sionals put in a disclaimer stating that they could not stand over the quality of the machine or the reports� As a result, up to 2,500 patients have been given an echocardiogram report with a disclaimer� I was cautious at the start of this because I did not want the message to go out to people who had gone through this process that in some way their diagnoses were sub par� I did not want them to get fearful� That is why I brought it to the HSE and sought for the HSE to retest these individuals in order to ensure that the original diagnoses were correct� In recent days, I have been told that the HSE has refused to retest these patients� Let us suppose the Minister of State received a diagnosis on the basis of a diagnostic tool in respect of which a medical professional wrote a disclaimer stating that he could not stand over the quality of it� The Minister of State would want a retest� Why are other patients not granted the same?
03/05/2018LL00600Deputy Catherine Byrne: On behalf of the Minister, I thank Deputy Tóibín for raising this matter� I wish to reassure the Deputy that the most important issue in the consideration of ser- vices for the people of Meath is to ensure patient safety and outcomes come first.
I understand that the Deputy is referring to echocardiograms carried out at Our Lady’s Hospital, Navan� The HSE has informed the Department of Health that approval was received for capital funding for the replacement of an echocardiogram machine in Our Lady’s Hospital, Navan as part of the capital equipment replacement programme 2017� Following the appropriate procurement process, the new machine was commissioned and came into use before the end of 2017� I 669 Dáil Éireann understand from the HSE that the replaced echocardiogram machine was decommissioned in August 2017� The HSE has confirmed that service contracts on the old echocardiogram machine were still in place until the end of 2017 and these service contracts provide full traceability documenta- tion which demonstrated that the machine was performing within acceptable parameters� As the Deputy may be aware, an echocardiogram machine is a very subjective diagnostic tool and can vary for several reasons depending on the patient being reviewed� The HSE has confirmed that all echocardiograms conducted in Our Lady’s Hospital, Navan, where anomalies or visual complexities were identified were escalated for enhanced imaging and the referring consultant was informed� Management at the hospital is satisfied that there is no requirement to recall patients who had an echocardiogram� Regarding services generally at Our Lady’s Hospital, Navan, since 2013 the hospital has been part of the Ireland East hospital group� Every hospital in that group, large or small, has a vital role to play within their group with smaller hospitals such as Our Lady’s Hospital, Navan, managing routine, urgent or planned care locally, more complex care managed in the larger hospitals and better linkages with primary, continuing and social care� As a smaller hospital, the challenge is to make sure that Our Lady’s Hospital, Navan, provides more of the right type of services for the people of County Meath, which can safely be delivered, so that we maximise the benefit to patients.
In order to ensure that the hospital continues to play a significant role in the Ireland East hospital group, it is engaged in a programme of redesign work to further inte- grate and enhance the role of Navan hospital as a constituent hospital within the hospital group� The Ireland East hospital group is continuing to engage closely with all interested parties to ensure that the needs of patients, staff and the local and wider communities are addressed� On the issue of the echocardiograms, I assure the Deputy that the HSE has confirmed that Ireland East hospital group and the management at Navan hospital are satisfied, following a full review of circumstances surrounding this issue, that there is no requirement to recall patients who have had an echocardiogram in the period referred to� I reiterate that Our Lady’s Hospital, Navan, will continue to play a significant role in the Ireland East hospital group in providing sustainable, safe and effective care at all approximate levels and complexity� 03/05/2018MM00200Deputy Peadar Tóibín: To be fair, it is important that I reaffirm the points the Minister of State has made in order that people are aware of the position� The hospital said that the techni- cians who calibrated the machine over that period of time were of the view that it was operating within the confidence levels that were required, but it has to be said that the request was made to replace the machine in early 2016, yet the machine was operating until August 2017� I was shocked about that but, on further investigation, I was told it is not unusual for machines to be out of date in hospitals and for the HSE not to provide the funding for those machines to be replaced in a timely fashion� The budgets are not with the hospitals� Therefore, the hospitals cannot purchase the necessary machines, rather they must apply for them� I am of the under- standing that the instinct of the hospital initially when it became aware of this particular crisis was to re-echo 450 people who had negative outcomes in their
 diagnoses based on the echocar- diograms� What has happened is that there has been a flip in the decision of the HSE on whether to 670 3 May 2018 re-echo those people� What we have blatantly at the heart of this question are health profes- sionals saying that they do not trust the quality of this diagnostic tool because this diagnostic tool is produced by a machine that is out of date� We have general practitioners, GPs, around the county who make diagnoses on the basis of a diagnostic tool with a disclaimer and then we have the HSE saying that everything is all right� I ask the Minister to forgive me but when the HSE says that everything is all right in this environment it is not something that we as Deputies can take as read� We have a moral respon- sibility to push the HSE to make sure everything is all right� To make sure that everything is all right in this case, I believe, would be to make sure that anybody who is at home in County Meath who has had a heart issue diagnosed on the basis of an echocardiogram with a disclaimer has the opportunity to have another echocardiogram and another diagnosis as a result� 03/05/2018MM00300Deputy Catherine Byrne: I understand the Deputy’s frustration and annoyance about the Minister not being able to be here to take this matter� I can only respond to the Deputy on the basis of the reply to this Topical Issue matter that I have been given by the Department� I under- stand that when Topical Issue matters are selected by the Ceann Comhairle there is contact with the particular line Minister� Unfortunately, in the current circumstances, as acknowledged by the Deputy, the Minister, Deputy Harris, has been inundated with having to go from one place to another� Having heard the Deputy’s concerns, from my reading of the statement provided by the Department, all I can do is assure him that it states an assessment has been done and that the hospital group has said that these machines are working� What the Deputy has said is very
 different from that� I will, as one would say, echo the Deputy’s concerns to the Minister about the 420 people, the issue about the disclaimer and the other references he made in his contribution� Unfortu- nately, I am not in a position to give a statement other than what is contained in the reply that I have been given by the Department because I cannot prejudge the issue of the machines that are in place and who gave permission for those machines to be used� I have to be honest and say that I have been here on a number of occasions on a Thursday to answer Topical Issue matters raised and sometimes I have not been very clear because I do not have a clear answer myself� I want to assure the Deputies that I make it my business to contact each line Minister by email and personally to outline the concerns that have been raised� In doing that, I hope Deputy Tóibín and other Deputies would get some kind of response from the line Minister� 03/05/2018MM00400Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach): If I am correct, I believe there is a facil- ity that allows Members to postpone their Topical Issue matter until the Minister can take it� 03/05/2018MM00500Mental Health Services 03/05/2018MM00600Deputy Eugene Murphy: I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, for staying here to answer this Topical Issue matter� I am often in the Chair and I see her frequently having to deal with some of those questions� That is not easy for her but we do need to get our point of view across� Unfortunately, when it comes to mental health services, Roscommon has been in the head- lines for all the wrong reasons� We were all familiar with the external review into mental health 671 Dáil Éireann services in County Roscommon, which, as the Minister of State will know, painted a damning indictment of a service in crisis mode, a service I would remind her where it was deemed a culture of blame, secrecy and negativity abounds� It was one of the worst cases in the country� There is no doubt about
 that� I brought our spokesperson on mental health to a special confer- ence evening in Roscommon and he was shocked and astounded at what was revealed there� A commitment was made in the programme for Government to improve mental health ser- vices in the country� The reason I am raising this matter on the Topical Issue Debate is to seek assurances that those key recommendations will be implemented without any further delay and to seek an update on them, if they have already been implemented� I remind the Minister of State that the review carried out in Roscommon commenced in August 2015 and it was finally completed in September 2017, two years later.
While I accept the three independent people who produced that report needed to get all the facts and figures, that was an extraordinary length of time when we are dealing with mental health issues� What is the point in having such reviews carried out if they are just left on the shelf to gather dust?
We discussed the crisis facing the Rosalie centre in Castlerea in Roscommon with the Min- ister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, yesterday evening� We discussed the need to save that unit� There are 12 patients in that unit� It has a capacity to accommodate 33 patients, but it has been simply run down by the HSE� It is time that the HSE took its orders from the Minister� We need that space in the Rosalie unit in Roscommon� We need our hostels� There are a number of hostels being threatened with closure and no matter what the elected members, the HSE fora members, Deputy Browne, myself or any of my colleagues say, the HSE continues to take its decisions and move the way it wants to� The HSE continuously tells people, such as me, that it knows what is best for the patient� I can tell the Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, I know many of those families and people, and in some of those situations, I, their families and the local GP know best what those patients need� Sometimes the HSE is totally wrong� Clinical assessment goes on and on every time� In one case in Roscommon regarding the Rosalie centre, we are being told that the patients no longer need psychiatric nurses and they are moving on now to older care� The reality is a bond has built up between those patients and the staff� What is happening, and I cannot get this through to the HSE, is the service is making people unhappy� Something we all try to do in mental health care is try and make people happy again� With conversation, one gets them at ease� One should talk to them� The Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, herself knows that� She put a lot of work into such issues in her own constitu- ency� In my view, the Government needs to have strong words with the HSE and instruct it not to be making these people and their families unhappy� I thank the Minister of State again for taking the question here this evening� 03/05/2018NN00200Deputy Catherine Byrne: I will be taking this matter on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly� Mental health
 remains a priority for this Government, reflected by the additional €35 mil- lion given in the last budget, thus bringing total HSE funding this year to over €910 million� The HSE is committed to ensuring that mental health services are delivered and modernised 672 3 May 2018 nationally, including those in the Galway and Roscommon mental health area� This objective is reinforced through the HSE Service Plan 2018� In 2015, the executive deemed it necessary to conduct an independent review of the quality, safety and governance of Roscommon mental health services to support achieving the goals set out in A Vision for Change and other relevant national policies� Within a short period of be- ing commissioned, it was clear that the initial timeframe proposed to conduct the review was insufficient and the review team received more time to complete its work.
The subsequent comprehensive report made 27 recommendations for local service improvement� The report indicates that the review team was impressed by the majority of staff it met or interviewed, and it highlighted their commitment that services improve in Roscommon� The overriding concern of the majority of those interviewed — staff, service users and car- ers — was that patients and families in Roscommon were not receiving services in line with best practice to meet required quality and safety of care standards� Core issues highlighted in the report, for example, related to improving multidisciplinary team working, addressing fractured relationships among some of the local staff, enhancing line management and ensuring allocated funding is spent appropriately� The steering group to oversee the implementation of the recommendations of the report, which was published on 5 September 2017, has had regular meetings since that time� The initial focus of the steering group was to work through each of the recommendations, and set out clear, positive achievable actions� Following this, the project manager was tasked with drafting an action plan, which was signed off by the steering group in January last� This is currently being considered by the HSE at national level� Arrangements have also been made to ensure independent oversight of implementation of the action plan� Some of the recommendations have already been implemented, and more are in the process of being implemented� As highlighted in the report, other recommendations require a targeted approach to change management� In this regard, external change management practitioners have been employed to work through the changes directly with HSE staff� Communication has taken place with all relevant stakeholders including service users, family members, staff unions and public representatives, and the HSE will continue this process of engagement� The action plan will be communicated to all relevant stakeholders once it has been signed- off at HSE corporate level, which is
 expected shortly� The Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, has had various meetings with the HSE and local political or other representatives about im- proving mental health services in Roscommon� The most recent of these was a constructive meeting last night in Leinster House, as has already been stated� The Minister of State also recently visited the area� The Deputy can rest assured that the Minister of State and the Department of Health will continue to closely monitor this issue to ensure that the recommendations of this report are delivered as quickly as possible� 03/05/2018NN00300Deputy Eugene Murphy: I do not doubt the sincerity on the issue of the Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne� The Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, did a good job in chairing the meeting last night but from a HSE perspective, it was not constructive at all� The continuation of that unit in 673 Dáil Éireann Castlerea, which is vital for the mental health services in County Roscommon, looks doubtful� The capacity in that excellent centre, which is in a fine building, is 33.
The HSE has delib- erately refused to take new people in over a period of two years� It is now down to 12� It looks like they will let people go until there is nobody left and they close it down� I will go back briefly to the independent report, which, as I stated, was a shocking indict- ment of the situation in Roscommon, and give the Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, a few facts from it to remind her of what happened� In 2012, the HSE returned €4�57 million in funding from Roscommon� In 2013, it sent back €6.91 million.
In 2014, it sent back €6.19 million.
Therefore, €17 million, which figure Deputy Byrne herself will be shocked with, was sent back by the HSE out of the mental health services in Roscommon when it was under pressure� Sixty staff, including some excellent front-line staff, were interviewed as part of that review� They were outspoken about some things that were going on� They want the service to improve� They want a proper service for the people� We must make the HSE realise that it is dealing with very vulnerable people, as Deputy Catherine Byrne herself well knows� As I stated, I am aware Deputy Byrne does a lot of work like this in her own constituency� These are vulnerable people� I ask Deputy Byrne to bring back the message from me that the HSE should not continue to treat people in my constituency, who have in many cases mild mental health issues and need support and need help, like this� 03/05/2018NN00400Deputy Catherine Byrne: I assure the Deputy I certainly will bring back his message� I am taken aback at how important it is with mental health services right across all our com- munities for people to be in a happy environment where there is continuity and where, to be honest, they can feel at home� I have had experience of it in my own family with the mental health service locally� For anybody who is suffering with or who has relatives who have a mental health issue, it is important that such continuity is maintained, not only by the service providers or among staff, but in the family as well� I appreciate the message Deputy Eugene Murphy has given me and the concerns he has raised� As I stated earlier, I will do my best, as always, to relay the messages back from the Depu- ties who raised the issues when the main Minister is not here and I would want that they would reply to the Deputies at the required level as well� I will continue to do that until I lose my job� 03/05/2018NN00500Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach): I appreciate that� Ports Development 03/05/2018NN00600Deputy James Browne: I want to raise the issue of Rosslare
 Europort� As the Minister will be aware, the port is unique among the ports in Ireland in that it is not a commercial port under the Harbours Act but is, in fact, a port operated by Iarnród Éireann� The port has a complex ownership with Fishguard in the UK� A review was carried out on Rosslare Europort, the Indecon report, by the Minister’s Department� Publication was refused 674 3 May 2018 and we had to submit a freedom of information, FOI, request� Rosslare Europort is a port with great history and massive potential� It is a port in the south east� It is a port that has the most substantial roll-on, roll-off traffic going to the UK or the Continent.
As the Minister knows, 80% of goods, by volume, to the Continent travel over the UK land bridge� That will potentially be lost in the event of a hard Brexit� It seems increasingly more certain that we are barrelling towards a hard Brexit.
Rosslare Europort makes a profit of approximately €2.5 million per an- num, but because it is not a stand-alone company within Iarnród Éireann, that money is sucked out of Rosslare Europort to subsidise Iarnród Éireann’s other activities� On the international markets, that kind of money would raise approximately €50 million� We know that because Wexford County Council is raising that kind of money on a similar margin� I have been raising the issue since I was elected as a Deputy and pretty much nothing has happened with it� The Minister was down there a couple of weeks ago and it looked all nice and shiny.
That is because Rosslare Europort, for the first time in 20 years, and no doubt in the awareness the Minister was coming down, decided to give it a lick of paint and probably spent about €20,000 or €30,000 out of the €2�5 million� We want the €2�5 million per annum to be spent on the port� I would have thought it was the kind of thing that would get on the Minister’s wick.

A State company is running a port into the ground.

It is a port that is quite profitable.


It is a port that could be a stand-alone, successful port if the money was kept in it� The port needs to be deepened, which will cost a hell of a lot of money� I appreciate that� The port can take the boats that are on the seas at the moment but it cannot take the boats that are planned because it is not deep enough.

It is silting up.
With the profit being made in the port leveraged on the international markets, the money can be raised to deepen the port� When the port is deepened, it would get the soil necessary to expand the port� In light of Brexit, I thought Rosslare Europort would be one of the key elements of developing contingency plans in the event that we lose the UK land bridge� Leaving aside the Brexit situation, Rosslare Europort is being run into the ground� When one comes out of Rosslare Europort, there is not even a sign outside of it to say where one is� “Rosslare Europort” is not written anywhere.
There are no flowers or painting outside of it.

The place looks as if it is dead from the outside but it has massive potential� Will the Minister intervene with CIÉ and Iarnród Éireann and address the situation?
The complex ownership is a red herring� It is something that could be addressed and which should be addressed within the context of Brexit� The Minister told me before Christmas he would raise it with his UK counterpart, Chris Grayling, in December, but for whatever reason it was not raised� It is a mat- ter that should be resolved� It can be resolved without the ownership issue being resolved by simply creating a stand-alone company within CIÉ.
The profits generated by the port would be kept in the port to develop it� 03/05/2018OO00200Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach): The Minister has four minutes for his initial reply� I trust with a name like Rosslare, the Minister does not have a vested interest� 03/05/2018OO00300Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Shane Ross): Not that I know of, but one never knows� I thank the Deputy for raising the issue� It is topical, relevant and par- ticularly pertinent� It is an item of great interest to me now having been there and I see there is possibly unrealised potential in Rosslare Europort� I do not want to say anything that would give too much hope of some sort of an early change but I understand the points the Deputy has made� It is something I will commit to looking at seriously with a view to any constructive changes which are brought to my attention, and I am hopeful they will be� 675 Dáil Éireann The Deputy is aware that Rosslare Europort is unique among the State-owned ports in that it is not a commercial company operating under the Harbours Acts but is instead operated as a division of Iarnród Éireann� The status of the port and whether its current status potentially inhibits its development was most recently considered in a strategic review commissioned by my Department and carried out by Indecon economic consultants� Its report concluded that the creation of an independent port authority would be very difficult given the port’s complex legal structure� Instead, it was recommended that the port remain in public ownership and that the possibilities for increased private sector involvement be investigated� To assist Iarnród Éireann’s overall consideration of how best to move forward, the com- pany then engaged consultants to assess market interest� The assessment was largely positive in terms of the potential for increased private sector investment in the port� It did identify, however, possible implementation issues due to the complicated legislative basis of the port� There were difficulties but not ones that could not be overcome.
Following the assessment, my Department sought and received detailed advice from the Office of the Attorney General on the matter.
That advice identified a number of legal issues with any such proposal and those issues remain under consideration� The Deputy may be interested to know that the Irish Maritime Development Office, IMDO, in conjunction with my Department, has been undertaking a study into the use of the UK land bridge by Irish importers and exporters� The purpose of this research was to establish the volume of traffic using the UK land bridge at present, the likely consequences that Brexit will have on land bridge usage and the various alternative options that may be viable� The research is being finalised, is expected to be completed shortly and should inform the potential for the future utilisation of all ports within the State, including Rosslare Europort� As I am sure the Deputy is aware, the Brexit negotiations between the United Kingdom and the European Union are ongoing and, as the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade have informed the House, these are at a sensitive stage in terms of agreeing a framework for the future trading relationship between the UK and the EU, including Ireland� Clearly, the outcome of that negotiation process will have implications for this country’s ports, notably Rosslare, in view of its position as an import-export trading route to mainland Europe for those businesses which, now or in the future, may wish to consider alternatives to the use of the UK land bridge� The Deputy may wish to know that Iarnród Éireann has advised that it has completed a com- mercial review of Rosslare Europort and is in the process of preparing a detailed business plan for the port to include consideration of the implications of Brexit� As the Deputy mentioned, I recently visited Rosslare at the invitation of my ministerial col- league, the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, and was briefed by the Europort’s management on the port’s commercial position� This was an especially valuable opportunity for me as Minister� 03/05/2018OO00400Deputy James Browne: Rosslare Europort has massive
 unrealised potential and has had for some time� That is true even more so in light of Brexit as a result of the increased require- ment for direct ferries to the Continent in the event of the UK land bridge being lost and in the circumstances where 80% of our goods, by volume, to the Continent, go across the UK land bridge.
The port generates €2.5 million profit per annum that is sucked out of the port and which could leverage sufficient funds to make the port viable and allow it to thrive.

It would be a self-sufficient port if CIÉ and Iarnród Éireann would simply leave the money in the port.
We have seen reports coming out from Dublin, Cork, Dover and Bruges ports� Ports in the north of the Continent, the UK and Ireland have issued reports on how they will tackle Brexit 676 3 May 2018 and the opportunities and challenges that Brexit will create, yet we have not heard a peep out of Iarnród Éireann about Rosslare Europort� Where are the plans for the port?
The port will be critical, not only to Wexford and the south east but to the nation� It is our primary roll-on, roll-off port� It is also the only port or airport that has a train station going into it� It used to go right up to the front door but it was moved by Iarnród Éireann for some very strange reason that no one can figure out.

I will be interested to see the publication of both the Irish Maritime Development Office report and the Iarnród Éireann report.
There was a reference in the Indecon report to the fifth option and the potential of retaining it in Iarnród Éireann’s ownership and potentially looking at outside investment� Everybody in Wexford knows that was code for Iarnród Éireann keeping its €2�5 million profit from the port while trying to find some outside investor to come in and squeeze whatever little extra it could out of it� That would be the worst of every world for Rosslare Europort� The port is making a profit and a system needs to be put in place to keep that profit in the port which can then thrive and have top class potential for the country� 03/05/2018PP00200Deputy Shane Ross: It would not be irresponsible of me to say much of what Deputy James Browne said was right and that the future of the port was under active consideration� I am not promising immediate, sudden or imminent movement, but the structure of the ownership which is somewhat unorthodox certainly needs to come under more immediate scrutiny than it has� That will happen� 5 o’clock The port’s geographical position is interesting in the context of Brexit because it is posi- tioned so much closer to the European mainland than Dublin Port where 60% of exports go to the United Kingdom� As a result, it could be considered as being somewhat different from many of the other ports� In view of the fact that the land bridge and its future are being examined, it is also well positioned� When I was at Rosslare Europort a few days ago, I met many groups� Some of the individuals from the Chamber of Commerce, and others, said Brexit might offer an opportunity to Rosslare Europort� That may be one of the few positives Brexit will bring to Ireland.
The port does look somewhat sleepy at first sight, but it might be given opportunities it would not have but for Brexit because there might be diversi- fication from other ports.

That is something to be considered.

I do not want the Deputy to leave thinking this is a normal reply to a Topical Issue, which is usually to bat people off� The port has potential which the Department should consider seri- ously.
Officials have been there in recent weeks and the Deputy has put his finger on something that could be quite exciting� 03/05/2018PP00300Message from Seanad 03/05/2018PP00400Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach): Seanad Éireann has passed the Domestic Violence Bill 2017, without amendment� 03/05/2018PP00500Famine Memorial Day Bill 2016: Second Stage 03/05/2018PP00600Deputy Peadar Tóibín: I move that: “The Bill be now read a Second Time�” 677 I wish to share time with Deputy Seán Crowe� Dáil Éireann I pay tribute to Mr� Michael Blanch who has been behind the campaign to achieve a set day for the commemoration of the Famine� He and his family have worked on this issue for approximately ten years to get the State to recognise the importance of the Famine and com- memorating it on a set day� The Famine was one of the most shocking events in Irish history� It is also one of the most important events, if not the most important� Sometimes we think of it as occurring a long time ago, but my great grandfather was born at the end of it� In generational terms, it occurred quite a short time ago� I will read some extracts from the diary of a Dr� Daniel Donovan because when we talk about the Famine, we forget the individual horrors of the time, three or four gen- erations ago.
I do not want to shock people, but it is important to reflect on the personal experi- ences of Irish people not long ago� Dr� Donovan was from Skibbereen and stated: A man named McDonald called upon him to see his stepdaughter who was dying and whom he wished to have removed to the workhouse in order that she may obtain the rites of burial.

The girl was lying on a floor of this hovel and she was filthy.
Around her hands remained the tattered garment and though death was evidently hastening to her relief, she appeared quite conscious� In reply to my inquiries as to why her hands were tethered with this cloth, she said her mother had been dead for two days and she was stretched on the same straw as her and feeling that her corpse was cold, she decided to warm herself by the fire and because of the weakness she fell into the fire and almost burned her hands off.
At the back of her hands she was extensively burned and they were charred to a cinder� I said there was no use in removing this woman from the house, but the stepfather took the dying girl in his arms and conveyed her to the hospital and in an hour after she expired� A few days before McDonald, not being able to procure a coffin for his wife, wrapped his wife in a sheet and placed his wife on his shoulders and conveyed her by night to the burying ground about a mile from Skibbereen where he left her exposed on the tombstone until some labourers go- ing to work the next day discovered her remains and had her interned without a coffin, an act that a few months ago would be regarded as a sacrilegious abomination in this locality� Later I was told this day by the police that a man had been for day unburied in a house on the windmill� There one of the most revolting scenes I had ever witnessed was before me� In a nook in this miserable cabin lay upon a wad of straw a green and ghastly corpse that had been for five days dead and that was already emitting an intolerable exhalation of putrefac- tion� At the feet of this decomposing body lay a girl groaning with pain and by its side was a boy frantic in fever.
The wife of the deceased sat upon the filthy floor stupefied from want and affliction.

I asked her, in the name of Heaven, why she had not got her husband buried and she answered because we have no coffin.
I am cautious about these stories, but another that really gripped me at the time was that of a mother who had been “found on the ground dead and her mouth was green from eating grass and her infant was still alive and seeking nutrition from her breast but because the infant was so hungry the infant had removed the nipples from the mother”� These stories are absolutely shocking and they did not happen long ago� The Famine altered irrevocably the trajectory of the country� The population was halved, over 1 million died and after the Famine approximately 3 million emigrated� This disaster did not happen by accident� It happened in large part owing to the laissez faire economic policies of the Tories in London� 678 3 May 2018 For the generation who fought in 1916, the Famine made it clear that if they did not control the future of Ireland, did not have self-determination, Ireland would experience other famines and that it was not a priority for the London Government� It made that generation, of O’Donovan Rossa, and those which came afterwards realise the necessity for independence and freedom� The effects of the Famine run deep in our culture, language and psyche� It is incredible to think the population of the island of Ireland has still not recovered from the Famine� The demographics today have been radically altered owing to the Famine over 150 years ago� One of the other legacies of the Famine has been silence� There was guilt on the part of many who had survived the Famine and emigration� People were cautious about telling the next genera- tion about the unimaginable horror of their experience� Then there was the silence of the guilt in respect of the survivor instinct, that is, of having survived and not having suffered in this regard� This is one reason the State does not do justice in commemorative terms to the histori- cal and humanitarian importance of the Famine and that we have such a low-key response to the commemoration of the Famine� We do commemorate it and good work is done by many people in this
 regard but the fact that it is a minor commemoration in most people’s experience is shocking, given the radical importance of the event in humanitarian, historical and cultural terms� The fact that most of us speak English in this Chamber and that English is spoken by much of the population is a result of the Famine also having radically changed the language patterns throughout the country� The fact that we do not commemorate the Famine on a particular day on an annual basis is a reflection of how uncomfortable we are in dealing with the Famine.
This has to change.

This simple Famine Memorial Day Bill has a simple premise, namely, that we set a fixed date for the remembrance of the Great Irish Famine and that it should fall on a particular Sunday every May� This would help because from year to year people around the world who seek to commemorate the Famine are not aware of on what day that will happen.

It is difficult to build a commemora- tive cycle when the date flits from one Sunday to another or from one month to another.
There is no excuse for our not having a proper approach to this matter� There is also a little bit of politics around this Bill but I do not propose to dwell on it because this is something that all of us should share� It is interesting that I introduced this Bill on First Stage in December 2016 and two months later, a Fine Gael Deputy introduced a replica Bill� Sinn Féin saw this as being a little cynical but we decided that this issue is too important and that we would support the Fine Gael Deputy’s Bill� We later learned that the Bill introduced by the aforementioned Fine Gael Deputy was being blocked by the Fine Gael Government because it did not have a money message� Two years later, we have two Bills and no legislative date for commemoration of the Famine� I appreciate that the Minister, Deputy Madigan, has indicated that she has decided to accept the proposal that the commemoration take place on a particular day on an annual basis, which I understand will be the third Sunday in May� While I welcome this decision, matters such as this should not be the prerogative of a Minister� We should settle on a date that is internationally recognised as the date on which the Famine is commemorated� Through this commemoration we can, first, show respect to those who died so horrendously in this country not so long ago; second, learn a little about ourselves as a people and how we have developed and evolved and our cultural traits as a result; and, third, start to identify how we help other countries and people around the world stricken down with famine� I hope the Government will accept this Bill and that we can have it passed in a speedy fash- ion in order that we can all focus on the job at hand� 679 Dáil Éireann 03/05/2018QQ00200Deputy Seán Crowe: I do not think anyone is hung up on there being two Bills� What is important is that a date is fixed for the commemoration.
I have raised this issue a number of times inside and outside of this House� In 2016, following the an Gorta Mór commemoration in Glasnevin Cemetery, I issued a statement in which I called for a commemoration to take place on a fixed Sunday each year, rather than on a date chosen each year to fit in with the schedules of the Taoiseach or the Minister.
The point I was making is that if we had a fixed date for the commemoration we could plan for the future� I agree with the proposal to move the location of the commemoration each year but I think a date for it should be fixed.
There is a family in my constituency, the Blanch family, who have been highlighting this issue for many years� The family has held many commemorative events at the memorial along the quays in Dublin and has tried to engender interest in the issue� They recently distributed lumper potatoes in my local area, including to schools, to encourage people and children to talk about an Gorta Mór� What happened at the time was described as a famine but we know there was a considerable amount of food in Ireland and that, unfortunately, it was shipped out� Con- sequently, the choices of the poor were narrowed to starvation or to emigration in some cases� We know what happened to those who tried to emigrate on the so-called Famine ships and so on� Deputy Tóibín outlined the number of people who died while travelling across the seas� The Deputy is right that we were not taught this in schools� It was almost like the Famine was an embarrassment� There was clearly a silence around what happened and not only in 1847 but the period leading up to it� The lumper potato was susceptible to blight� For those who have never come across one, it has a very thin skin� I have grown these potatoes, so I know the difficulties around growing them.
For those who have not come across a blighted potato, it is absolutely rotten and stinking� It is a reminder to us all of the awful events and scenes witnesses throughout this land� It is interesting that people abroad commemorate the Famine more than people in Ireland do� There is something wrong with our psyche if we try to ignore this awful harm that occurred� It was a catastrophe� Some would describe it as a genocide� We all agree that it needs to be remembered and those who died need to be commemorated� There is much that the Minister, in terms of her job, can do� I was in Kerry recently, where I was shocked to come across a so-called Famine bowl, in which the millet was made into gruel for people who were starving, being used for builder’s rubble� This should not be allowed to happen� The Blanch family have asked that we collate items dating back to that period� We also need to identify the graves, many of which are in workhouses around the country� We need to do a lot more than just commemorate the day and remember those who died� As spokesperson for foreign affairs, what is important to me is that we try to prevent future famines so as to prevent people starving� The important work which Irish Aid does in this regard across the poorest regions in the world is something of which to be very proud� I support this Bill� As I said earlier, I am not hung up on any particular day but we need to fix the commemoration in stone� 03/05/2018QQ00300Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Josepha Madigan): I wish to begin by acknowledging Deputy Tóibín’s longstanding interest in this matter, as evidenced by his bringing forward this Bill� It is clear that there is a widespread interest shared by many Deputies in ensuring that the Great Irish Famine continues to be appropriately commemorated by the State, working in partnership with stakeholders and local communities� I am struck by the harrowing stories to which the Deputy alluded and I acknowledge the suffering and indi- vidual horrors that were meted
 out on Irish families� In that vein, the national Famine com- 680 3 May 2018 memoration should be a fitting memorial to the vast swathe of our population who were lost to death or emigration� It is estimated that up to 1 million people died and another 1 million emigrated during the Famine years� The Famine, therefore, had a profound and devastating impact on every part of the country and this should be reflected in the national commemoration.
The first national Famine commemoration to include both local input and a formal State ceremony was held in Skibbereen in 2009� Since then, the event has been held annually in a similar format right across the country including at: Murrisk, County Mayo, in 2010; Clones, County Monaghan, in 2011; Drogheda, County Louth, in 2012; Kilrush, County Clare, in 2013; Strokestown in County Roscommon in 2014; Newry, County Down, in 2015; Glasnevin Cemetery in Dublin in 2016; and, most recently, Ballingarry County Tipperary, in 2017� As announced by my predecessor, the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Humphreys, last October, this year’s commemoration will take place in University Col- lege Cork, UCC, in collaboration with Cork City Council, on Saturday 12 May, in the presence of An tUachtarán, Michael D� Higgins, who will deliver the keynote address� The college was established in 1845 and opened in 1849, with construction continuing during the Famine years� Arguably, this history has contributed to UCC becoming a leader in the field of research in, and study of, the Famine years as exemplified by the publication of the award winning Atlas of the Great Irish Famine in 2012� The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Coveney, will officiate on my behalf and he has agreed to host the commemoration.
He will have the opportunity to officiate at the official launch of the Great Irish Famine Online, which will be a key element of the day� The development of the Great Irish Famine Online represents the culmination of work over a period of years and will represent a major resource for students of the Famine at all levels� This work has been supported by the national Famine commemo- ration committee and my Department and it is entirely fitting that this great seat of learning should host the national commemoration on the occasion of its launch� Deputies will also be interested to note that UCC is hosting a conference on global hunger on the eve of the commemoration on 11 May� I can only commend the work of UCC, Cork City Council and Cork County Council in the development of the surrounding programme for this year’s event� Details of all events are available on a dedicated website at www.ucc.ie/nfc2018� One of the strengths of the national Famine commemoration is that the event has been held in a different location and community every year� While the national Famine commemoration committee has sought to hold the ceremony on the second Sunday of May each year, the host venue and community has been consulted.
The flexibility to accommodate particular circum- stances that may arise around the arrangements, and to allow organisers to develop a fitting pro- gramme of locally organised events, many of which have been tied in with dates of important local significance, has facilitated the holding of the event in locations such as Newry, County Down, and Ballingarry, County Tipperary, in the autumn� The importance attached to this event by the current and previous Governments has been signalled by the level of support demon- strated by An tUachtarán and An Taoiseach in making themselves available to preside at the an- nual commemoration� Notwithstanding these considerations, and taking account of the views expressed by Deputies Tóibín and Crowe, I am aware that early last year, the then Minister, Deputy Humphreys, supported the reading at Second Stage of a Private Members’ Bill brought forward by Deputy Brophy� This Bill, inter alia, also proposed that the commemoration of the Great Famine would be held on the second Sunday of May each year� I am pleased to be able to inform the House that earlier this week the Government approved the issuance of a money 681 Dáil Éireann message in respect of Deputy Brophy’s Bill� This will enable the Bill to proceed to Committee Stage� I look forward to meeting with Deputy Brophy shortly and working with him to ensure that the necessary work is done and the benefits of setting a fixed date are fully realised.
It also gives me great pleasure to inform the House that the Government, taking account of the support expressed in this House for Deputy Brophy’s views and the experience of the national Famine commemoration committee in organising the commemoration and the exist- ing calendar of State events has also this week - pending any legislation that may be enacted - approved the designation of the third Sunday of May each year as the national Famine com- memoration day, with the arrangements for the holding a of State commemoration on this day or the preceding Saturday to be decided each year following consultation with the relevant lo- cal authority and host community� The decision to designate the third Sunday of May for this commemoration takes account of the other elements of the State ceremonial calendar including Arbour Hill and Daniel O’Connell commemorations held in May� This year these are due to be held on Wednesday, 9 May, and Sunday, 13 May� The Government has also taken account of the experience of previous years in choosing this weekend to provide for the participation of local schools in the event as well as the surrounding programme of activities� The local programmes and involvement of schools has been a feature of the Famine commemoration since the holding of the first event in the current format in Skib- bereen in 2009.
The inclusion of some flexibility to allow for the holding of the commemora- tion itself on the Saturday or Sunday reflects the unique nature of this commemoration which is organised in partnership with the host community with a view to maximising local participation in this important State ceremonial event� The appropriate commemoration of the Famine and its victims is one of the key objectives of the national Famine commemoration committee� The committee was established in July 2008 to oversee the arrangements for the commemoration of the Famine and has conducted its work with great enthusiasm and dedication since then� The original model for the State commemoration was modelled on the national day of com- memoration held in July each year� This was established by a Government decision in 1986 to commemorate all those Irishmen and Irishwomen who died in past wars or on service with the United Nations� The outgoing committee’s term of office ended at the turn of the year and I can confirm to the House that the process of appointing the membership of the new committee is at an ad- vanced stage.
One of the first tasks for the new committee will be to consider the arrangements for next year’s commemoration in light of the Government decisions earlier this week� While the decision to hold this year’s event at a Munster venue represented a departure from recent practice I expect that the practice of rotation between the provinces will be returned to next with the decision to have regard to the location of previous events and national impact of the Great Famine in the selection of the actual location� These decisions of Government and the progression of Deputy Brophy’s Bill, which was given Government time in February 2017, will afford an opportunity to ensure that the benefits of setting a fixed date are fully realised for appropriate commemoration of the Great Famine, which is the shared objective of all parties to this debate� I therefore propose to oppose the Bill now before the House� 03/05/2018RR00200Deputy James Browne: Deputy Lawless was voting at a select committee� He is on his way to the Chamber now� I shall be sharing time with Deputy Lawless� 682 3 May 2018 In principle, Fianna Fáil supports Deputy Tóibín’s Bill to establish a national Famine me- morial day� Fianna Fáil established the national Famine commemoration committee some years ago and a dedicated day to remember an Gorta Mór is a natural continuation of this� We all know from our history the devastating effect of the Famine throughout our nation� There was no county or part of the country untouched by it� The Famine visited a huge collective trauma on the nation and this has travelled down through the generations and still affects our collective psychology.
People went through horrific deaths and mass emigration.

It did not finish on the day the Famine ended; there was a significant agricultural depression for years afterwards.

It has had a very long tail in its effects on our psychology.
It is reflected in our natural generos- ity towards other nations and peoples when they find themselves in serious difficulties with famines and other forms of distress� Throughout the country, the Great Famine is marked by paupers’ graves� I suspect there is not a county that does not have a pauper’s grave� My county, Wexford, has several� During the Famine, many families and individuals had to go into work- houses, many never left alive, and they were put into these unmarked mass graves throughout the country� I want to mention the excellent work done by graveyard committees throughout the country, whether in Wexford, Louth, Mayo or Cork� These volunteers do fantastic work in every county in maintaining these graves though the people within them are, unfortunately, unmarked and forgotten� I wish to acknowledge the great work and give them the credit they deserve� In my county, Wexford, the population dropped from 202,000 to 180,000 in a mere ten years� I know other counties were even more devastatingly affected� After that, people kept emigrating because of the agricultural depression� In Wexford, we have Johnstown Castle where there is the Irish Agricultural Museum and Famine exhibition� The Dunbrody Famine ship is in New Ross town and anybody who wants to see just what one of those ships was like can go down to New Ross, step onto that and experience it.
It was a horrific experience for our nation.

All our thoughts are with those people who died in such horrific circumstances.

03/05/2018SS00200Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach): I call Deputy James Browne� Sorry, Deputy James Lawless� 03/05/2018SS00300Deputy James Lawless: Exit Deputy James Browne, enter Deputy James Lawless� I wel- come this Bill.

Fianna Fáil will support it.
It is important and fitting that we would have such a day of remembrance and recognition for the national shadow which, as Deputy Tóibín elo- quently articulated, is cast by the Famine some 150 years later, which continues to shape our demographics, our patterns, our politics and perhaps our tribalism in many ways which we may not even fully appreciate� Deputy Browne spoke about Famine graveyards which are found in every corner of the country� Much of our heritage and history is made up of Famine rocks, mass rocks, Famine sites and Famine graves� As a child, I spent time in Gorey, County Wex- ford, where I grew up� The Famine graveyard in Clonattin was regularly visited� Bizarrely, it was almost a place we used to gather and play in the fields.
I remember seeing the dichotomy of the likes of the Rams, the great families of the time, with great ornate statues and vaults to their name - God rest them - side by side with mass graves of Famine victims where we had the prince and pauper lying side by side� They are not so much equal in death as they are unequal in their commemoration and remembrance, and they were certainly unequal in life� That imagery and manifestation of what happened cast a long shadow in my view and, to an extent, on my political beliefs� On the causes of the Famine, Deputy Tóibín’s opening remarks outlined some of the lo- gistical difficulties with the empire, which was stretched at the time.
The sun never set on the 683 Dáil Éireann British Empire� Perhaps, as its closest dominion, we were not most closely favoured when it came to dispensing largesse, dispensing provisions and ensuring supplies were maintained� The question arises of whether it was genocide or gross negligence and to what degree it was inflicted.

Was it accidental or deliberate or was it by design?

Did free trade policies lead to the refusal to import or trade corn?
Many economic and historical arguments can be made� It is reminiscent of the modern parallel, the Brexiteers, with the obduracy towards Ireland, the refusal to countenance Irish interests and the refusal to understand what is happening in their nearest neighbour� We see that in some elements of the British establishment today� Thinking of the Famine and why it is so important, I think of the constituency I represent, Kildare North, and talk about the number of sites around the country� Naas General Hospital, which is very much alive and thriving today, is based on the old Famine workhouse� It predates it� That is the origin of that hospital� There is a long shadow to the present day, where people are being treated as we speak and staying there as the hospital expands� It is very much the heart of the county hospital� That is built on the site of the old Famine workhouse� The effect of the Famine was felt on families, in our demographics and in our patterns� I was talking about the negatives of the British-Irish relationship� There were positives in the movements of people� We obviously would not have wanted it to have come about the way it did, but there has been a long history of migration in both directions� In my family, my late father, James Keith Lawless, passed away shortly after I was elected to this House� He grew up in the north of England� He was a proud Irishman but he traced routes back to his predecessors who left Ireland around the time of the Famine to travel to the north of England for work and for salvation and to get away from the desperation and desolation that prevailed in Ireland at the time� Those movements go right through to my own family� Many families and people in Ireland can trace back memories, shared history, direct history and folk history of events that took place in those times� Before I was in this House, I worked in the city centre in other occupations� I often walked down the quays and stopped and studied and spent some time mesmerised by the figures on the quays, where we have the huddled masses, in their desperation, heading towards what we imagine must be a Famine ship or coffin ship about to take them away down the quays.
We can see those figures.

I am not sure what artist created them but with the desperation engraved upon each face, eye, look back and the mutual co-dependency between the mother with a baby, the father figure and the older man, the family trying to make their way with whatever few posses- sions they could to a ship, a place of alms or a workhouse, it is an amazing piece of art� Unfortunately, many of those journeys ended in tragedy.
We are all aware of the coffin ships and Famine ships that plummeted to the bottom of the sea once they got out of port� One story that caught my imagination was from Delphi, County Mayo� Many families travelled from a village in desperation, trying to head to Delphi, which was the nearest town, across the moun- tain, for salvation, alms, food and succour� When they arrived, unbelievably, they were turned away� Grotesquely, they were turned back� There was no room at the inn� They had to begin the long journey back even more weakened� I remember visiting Achill recently and seeing the forgotten village, as it is called� Captain Boycott’s cottage is there in Achill too, although he was better known elsewhere� Clare was where he really had his rack-rent landlord days� The forgotten village is reminiscent of the Ma- rie Celeste� It is a place where an entire village was evicted by an absentee landlord� People were put on the road and moved on� Nothing ever came of the village� The houses stay intact� 684 3 May 2018 The buildings are intact, motionless, frozen in time, with the people who lived there gone for- ever.
It was totally devoid of benefit to anybody, whether man or beast.
There are lessons in that� In one of the many debates we had in the House lately on housing and the rental crisis, I was reminded of the three Fs which were the pillars of the Land League at the time: fixity of tenure, fair rent and freedom to buy out one’s own lease� They are being talked about in the modern time as issues for the rental and housing sector� It is a little sad that we have come 150 years and yet are still stuck with dealing with many of the same issues as occupied the minds of Parnell, the Land League, Davitt and people of that ilk� I thought I had ten minutes but I am not sure how the time has been divided� I think there were to be ten minute slots� 03/05/2018SS00400Deputy Eugene Murphy: Deputy Lawless can take a few minutes of mine� 03/05/2018SS00500Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach): With the permission of Members, we will take Deputy Murphy, then we have two other slots left, for the Government and Deputy Tóibín� 03/05/2018SS00600Deputy James Lawless: I will start into Deputy Murphy’s time and finish within two min- utes� I spent some time in Connemara and I always think about these things� We tend to think of Connemara, the west and Munster as being the most ravished areas, but the east coast suf- fered too� One phenomenon I came across in Connemara was that of the hungry grass� The hungry grass was a concept written about by the poet Donagh MacDonagh, who, incidentally, was the son of Thomas McDonagh, one of the signatories of the Proclamation� Thomas Mac- Donagh was a founder of the Association of Secondary Teachers in Ireland, ASTI, so he was a notable figure for many reasons.
The poem chronicles the hungry grass.
The hungry grass was a phenomenon where people were found at the time of the Famine, delirious or dead by the side of the road, their mouths foaming with green liquid coming from them� Essentially, they lay down in desperation and tried to eat the grass because they had nothing else to eat� This was the depths of their despair� I made inquiries closer to home and found that in places such as Caragh, County Kildare, in living memory, schoolchildren were told not to cross and not to take a shortcut to school because it was a patch of hungry grass� Nobody was quite sure of the origins� Such a phenomenon occurs in south County Wicklow, in the Dublin Mountains and the Wicklow Mountains� People avoid patches of hungry grass, which they believe are cursed and indicate where people died by the side of the road in desperation and from hunger� The Famine is a terribly sad chapter of our national history and casts a long shadow.
It is fitting that we remember it and give it its due place in Ireland’s commemorations� 03/05/2018TT00200Deputy Eugene Murphy: I am glad the Minister is present for the debate on this topic, of which I am sure she has a good knowledge� As my colleagues stated, Fianna Fáil fully supports the Famine Memorial Day Bill� To be fair to the Government, Deputy Colm Brophy has put forward a similar Bill� The Famine following the failure of the potato crop in 1845 lasted for six years and 1�1 mil- lion lives were lost� If that happened in today’s world, it would be seen as shocking and would rightly receive huge coverage and there would be a massive attempt to help those people� Tak- ing account of the 2 million people who emigrated, the population of this island declined by approximately one third during the Famine� In the years preceding the Famine, a collapse of Irish manufacturing and sharp increases in the population gave rise to an intense fracturing of Irish agricultural holdings� By 1841, 45% of agricultural holdings in Ireland were less than 5 685 Dáil Éireann acres in area� As the size of the average agricultural holding dwindled, so too did the diversity of the average Irish peasant’s diet� Peasants who had previously supplemented their staple diet of potatoes with herrings, milk and meat became increasingly reliant on potatoes, a remarkably high yield crop, for sustenance� The speed with which the blight spread astounded farmers and scientists� According to historians, even seemingly healthy potatoes quickly decayed in stor- age, which further impeded Ireland’s food supply� As Members are aware, by late 1845 the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom had initi- ated a poverty relief programme in Ireland� Corn maize was imported, distributed to local relief committees and sold to peasants at cost price� Public works schemes allowed peasants to earn the wages needed to purchase the corn maize� It was hoped that that model of relief would modernise Ireland as well as providing minimum poverty alleviation� As
 Members know, the poverty relief programme failed miserably for a variety of reasons, including the lack of an efficient distribution network, the indifference of Irish nobility and a failure to understand the Irish context, and Irish peasants were left in dire and desolate straits� It is right and proper that the commemoration take place at the same time every year so that people can plan accordingly and suitable commemorations be scheduled across the country� It will lead to a better understanding for all our people, the young in particular, of the great tragedy of the Famine of 1847� It saddens me that many young people do not know the history of the Famine, nor the torture, poverty and heartbreak it brought to many families across the country� If I may be permitted to to be somewhat parochial, as the Minister is aware, Strokestown in County Roscommon is home to the National Famine Museum� We are very proud to have it� It attracts between 50,000 and 60,000 visitors each year and they see and hear the story of what happened in many parts of Ireland, particularly that part of the west of Ireland� Some 5,000 people from the locality died or emigrated during the Famine� Many got on ships in Galway and were lost while crossing the Atlantic� Others struggled to Newfoundland and Canada� In recent years, research on 1,400 people who left Roscommon during the Famine but whose fates were unknown was carried out by historians at NUI Maynooth� It traced many of those people, some of whom reached the United States and attained very good positions in American life� Many others, however, were lost in transit� All but two of a particular family of seven who left the country were lost during the crossing of the Atlantic� There are many such tragic stories� We were fortunate to have a national commemoration in Strokestown some years ago� It was a truly fantastic event� I wish to give my full support to the Bill, like my colleagues� It is proper and right to have the
 commemoration on the same day each year, which would deservedly put it onto a higher pedestal� It will become an important part of our history about which every primary and second-level school student should know� That story is not being told in many places� It is to be hoped that the passage of this Bill, which will have the support of the House, will put the Famine on a new pedestal� 03/05/2018TT00300Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Josepha Madigan): I ac- knowledge the contributions of all Members� I was struck by Deputy Browne’s comments on the collective trauma inflicted on the Irish people, which is an appropriate term for what hap- pened.
Deputy Crowe made some sad but fitting comments on the issue and Deputy Eugene Murphy spoke of Strokestown, the location of the National Famine Museum, and the Irish 686 3 May 2018 peasants who were left in dire straits, which is very true� He also addressed the reliance on the potato and the blight which inflicted hardship on so many people.

It is a very sad topic.

Deputy Lawless mentioned the figures on the quays and the desperation on their faces.
I thank Deputy Tóibín for his long-standing interest in the matter, which is evidenced by his bringing the Bill forward� I acknowledge the contribution of all Members who spoke on the topic� It is obvious that there is very widespread interest in the Famine, as is appropriate� It is also appropriate that the State commemorate the Famine in a suitable manner, working in part- nership with stakeholders and local communities� It should be commensurate with the propor- tion of the population lost to death and emigration� It is clear that there is widespread support in the House for that objective� However, the Government has decided to designate the third Sunday of May as a fixed date for the national Famine commemoration.
The Bill put forward by Deputy Brophy, which, as I stated, has been issued a money message, will achieve Deputy Tóibín’s aim of a fixed weekend to commemorate the Famine and I will, therefore, oppose it.
03/05/2018TT00400Deputy Peadar Tóibín: I welcome views from all sides of the House on this issue� As mentioned by several speakers, the Famine is imprinted on each of us in hundreds of ways which we do not even realise� The Irish diaspora were mentioned� There are tens of millions of people with Irish heritage across the globe� Most are there because of the Famine, which began the culture of mass emigration and entrenched it into the Irish psyche for the first time.
During the recent economic collapse, hundreds of thousands of young Irish people emigrated to Canada and Australia� That is a cultural trait which originated during the Famine� It is interesting that many of the illnesses we experience as a society and a people stem from the Famine� Severe nutritional deprivation can cause what is called epigenetic change� Epigenetics is a study of the expression of genetics and while they do not necessarily involve changes to the genetic code, those changes can be expressed for hundreds of years after a severe jolt to humanity, as happened in the Great Hunger� With regard to the way we commemorate the Great Famine and to indicate where we are on this, there is an exhibition called Coming Home: Art and the Great Hunger on display in Dublin Castle’s Coach House, and it is to be commended� However, the exhibition is only temporary� Its exhibits are on loan from Ireland’s Great Hunger Museum in Connecticut� There is an ex- hibition at the top of St� Stephen’s Green but it is privately run and only open for half the year� The National Famine Museum is located in Strokestown Park, County Roscommon� For the past 35 years it has been sustained almost solely by the private philanthropy of Mr� Jim Callery from the Westward Group� We are told that until now, there has been a variability regarding the dates of the commemo- ration of the Famine due to the difficulty in synchronising the diaries of important people in the country such as the Taoiseach and the President but, in fairness, this issue is far more important than the diary of any individual citizen here� That has to be taken into consideration� Ní féidir é seo a fhágáil idir dhá cheann na meá a thuilleadh� Is é an Gorta Mór an ócáid ba thromchúisí is ba thábhachtaí a thit amach i stair na hÉireann sa naoú haois déag� Díreach cúpla glúin ó shin bhí muintir na hÉireann faoi scáth uafáis doshamhlaithe� D’athraigh an tír ó bhonn go barr� Chailleamar caoga faoin gcéad de dhaonra na tíre – d’éag milliún agus chuaigh 3 mhilliún ar imirce
 i rith aimsir an Ghorta agus sna deicheanna ina dhiaidh sin� Tá oidhreacht an Ghorta Mhóir go smior i gcultúr, i dteanga agus i sícé na hÉireann� Tá sé 687 Dáil Éireann deacair a chreidiúint ach ó thaobh daonra de, fiú níl Éire tar éis teacht chuici féin, ó thionchar an Drochshaoil sin� Ceann de na gnéithe is suntasaí faoin nGorta ná an tost marfach a tháinig sna sála air� Ní labhraítí faoin uafás ó ghlúin go glúin ag an am� I mo thuairimse is é sin na tréithe céanna atá taobh thiar ceann den chiúnas Stáit atá ann mar gheall ar an gcomóradh sin agus is iad na tréithe sin ata ag cur faitíos ar an tír seo comóradh cuí a dhéanamh ar an rud uafásach tábhachtach seo� Ba cheart dúinn mar thír níos mó a dhéanamh de bharr meas a thaispeáint do na glúine a fuair bás agus na glúine a bhí ar imirce amach as an tír seo� Tá níos mó le déanamh againn mar chun tuiscint níos fearr a bheith againn mar thír mar dhaonra mar chultúr freisin� Tá sé ríthábhachtach go mbeadh an spás agus na deiseanna cuí againn le machnamh a dhé- anamh ar an Ghorta mar náisiúin� Ní hé le cuimhneacháin a dhéanamh orthu siúd a cailleadh go tubaisteach amháin, ach le tuiscint níos doimhne a chothú dúinn féin� Bhí díomá orainn go raibh neart imeartas polaitíochta le feiceáil leis an mBille seo� Ba chóir go mbeadh gach páirtí ag obair le chéile agus tacaíocht tras-phairtí a bheith againn� Chuir mise an Bille seo os comhair na Dála i mí na Nollag 2016� Ar chúis éigin, chuir Teachta Dála as Fine Gael an Bille céanna os comhair na Dála� Is cuma faoi sin, ba cheart dúinn tacaíocht a thabhairt don dá Bhille, i mo thuairim� Ba cheart dúinn dul ar aghaidh mar Oireachtas iomlán ar an rud seo� Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil le gach páirtí go bhfuilimid tagtha ar an gciniúint thábhachtach seo� Ach i mo thuairim, ní féidir linn é a fhágáil don Aire nó don Teachta Dála Brophy� Ba cheart dúinn mar pháirtí bheith cinnte go bhfuil an rud seo chun bheith curtha isteach i dlí na tíre seo� Dá bharr sin, táimid i Sinn
 Féin lán sásta an Bille seo a bhrú ar aghaidh� Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil Fianna Fáil ag tabhairt tacaíochta don Bhille seo, agus míle buíochas d’Fhianna Fáil as é seo a dhéanamh� Beidh deis againn an dá Bhille, b’fheidir, a phlé ag Céim an Choiste agus beidh deis againn aon athrú cuí a dhéanamh ar an mBille sin ag an am� Le cúnamh Dé, i gceann bliana, beidh sé seo deimhnithe agus ni bheidh an fhadhb ann, níos mó� Go raibh míle maith agat� 03/05/2018UU00200An Ceann Comhairle: De bharr gur rud neamhghnách, agus ag cur san áireamh go bhfuil trí nóiméad fágtha, tá an Teachta Ó Cúiv ag iarraidh cúpla focal a rá.
Ligfidh mé dó.
03/05/2018UU00300Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Go raibh míle maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle� Ní dhéanfaidh mé nós de seo� Bhí mé gafa le hagallamh ar na meáin� I welcome this Bill and we will be supporting it on Second Stage� I was chair of the initial Famine commemoration committee that organised the event in Skibbereen referred to earlier� At that time, we considered the issue of a date but the problem was that there was no one date for the Famine in the year that stuck out� We favoured May, and that was when we held it� We were looking to see what would suit communities because we wanted to move the commemora- tion around the country� That was one of the factors that made the committee decide not to opt for a fixed date at that time.
However, I agree with the Deputy go bhfuil sé in am, it is time now to fix it in the calendar.

This year’s commemoration will be the tenth annual commemoration, and May is the month on which people are fixed.
The reality at the beginning was that we did not know whether some- body would come out of the woodwork with a date of some traumatic event in the calendar of the Famine that would give us a date of particular relevance but that has not happened� I would 688 3 May 2018 be happy to see this become a recognised statutory event and therefore we will be supporting the Bill� I understand there is almost all-party support for it� I hope that the two Bills before the House can be progressed through the committee� As the Ceann Comhairle knows, I have a strong view that the provision in the Constitution on money messages was to stop us spending vast sums of money not voted by the people� I do not believe it was ever intended that it would be used as a device to stop a measure that would have no effect on the overall Exchequer position in a year and would not be measurable in the greater scheme of things� I hope, therefore, that the money message will be given and that the two Bills, or some form of them, will be brought forward to allow us bring into law an event that is heading for its tenth birthday and which is important and has grown in public recognition� It is also important that the international event would be continued� Since the Famine hit every community in every county, from the most isolated areas to the cities, the idea of rotating the commemoration between the provinces should be retained� We should ensure that it does not go to the big places� An initiative discussed at the initial Famine commemoration committee was that every parish in Ireland owns the Famine and should be entitled to commemorate the Famine at some stage� Question put and agreed to� 03/05/2018UU00500Famine Memorial Day Bill 2016: Referral to Select Committee [Private Members] 03/05/2018UU00600Deputy Peadar Tóibín: I move: That the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht pursuant to Standing Orders 84A(3)(a) and 141� Question put and agreed to� The Dáil adjourned at 6 p�m� until 2 p�m� on Tuesday, 8
 May 2018� 689