Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698926578154.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 1 WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ The House met at 15:00.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The SPEAKER: I am sorry, the Deputy President.

Hon Mkhaliphi, on the virtual platform, you have your hand up.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, Speaker.

There is a very terrible noise coming from there.


I think the IT must check because we couldn’t hear you.

The SPEAKER: Okay.

Thank you very much.

IT, will you please check that?

Hon Deputy President, you may take your seat whilst we are checking.

IT, you are given two minutes, check.

May we proceed.

Hon Mkhaliphi, can you hear me now?

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, speaker we hear you but the noise is still there.

Maybe they can work on it.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 2 The SPEAKER: Noise?

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes.

There is a terrible feedback coming from that ...

Yes.

The SPEAKER: Hon members?

IT, is everything okay at the back?

Can we proceed now.

[Interjections.]

Thank you.

Hon Gungubela, you had your hand up.

[Interjections.]

Okay.

It seems, hon members, we are okay now.

We proceed.

Hon Deputy President?


QUESTIONS TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT Question 7: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.

According to the President's response, Ministers and Deputy Ministers have signed performance agreements.

The President appoints the Deputy President and Ministers and delegate responsibilities to them, and has the power to remove them, as stated in section 91(2) of the Constitution.
Hon Speaker, the performance agreements are meant to enable the President and the respective Ministers and Deputy Ministers, to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 3 effectively evaluate the assigned responsibility and to identify areas of concern.
The current system is not determined to provide for the signing of performance agreement between the President and the Deputy President, whom you know very well, is appointed to assist the President in the execution of the functions of government in accordance with section 91(5) of the Constitution.

However, the work of the Deputy President is evaluated against the responsibility that have been delegated by the President from time to time.

Thank you very much, hon Speaker.


Ms S GWARUBE: Deputy President, performance agreements of the Ministers are meant to gauge and assess their performance within the portfolio to resume according to your response.
But in order for this to be effective continuous assessment must be done so that nonperforming members of the executive can be removed from their positions either assessment must be made public for transparency but it does not seem to be the case since it carry the commitment to have this done since 2019 was near ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 4 In addition to this the key function as you stated as the Deputy President and the President you have to lead the country in the interest of national unity in accordance with the Constitution and the law.
So, based on the constitutional responsibilities that the two of you have would you agree that the admission by the President that millions of dollars in a private property was stolen and not reported to the criminal justice system will cast doubt on his ability to uphold the rule of law which is his responsibility and yours which is central to your role and his ability to manage the Cabinet.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
Well, it is correctly said that the performance agreements that we signed between the President and the Ministers, Deputy Ministers are meant to evaluate performance.

And of course, the outcome of that evaluation is communicated to the relevant Minister and the relevant Deputy Minister.

So, the President does that from time to time.

I have never seen an incident where the President will do it public.

It will be between the President and the respective Minister after that performance assessment.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 5 The question that you are raising now about the development of the issues surround the farm robbery in the President’s place are things that has been reported to the police and I take it that we should allow the respective law enforcement agencies to investigate without our interference.

And finally, made their investigation known.

If they want to charge the President, they will do so at a proper time.
So, I think we should allow that process to unfold.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, Deputy President.

[Interjections.]

Order!

[Interjections.]

Order!

[Interjections.]

Order!

Hon Gwarube?

[Interjections.]

If I may raise this matter ...

[Interjections.]

... No, no, no, would you please listen.

I may raise this matter - your follow up question had absolutely nothing to do with the question you initially raised with the Deputy President.
I just wish to draw your attention to that.

The second supplementary question will be asked by the hon F A Masiko through a virtual platform.

Yes.

Ms F A MASIKO: Thank you very much, Speaker.

And thank very much ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 6 Mr D W MACPHERSON: What’s that referred to.

If one cast the eye to that procedure for 2004 page 196, 1,3: Its very clear on what the scope of the questions can be asked to the President and to the Deputy President.
And it is matters that the individual is responsible for or delegated to.

Now it’s very clear that, the hon Gwarube has raise or follow up whilst a key part of what the President should or should not be doing with respect to performance agreement.

And that if there is a question over his integrity or what has or has not happened in relation to the incident in his farm it causes doubt on his ability to do that job.
So, the follow had absolutely everything to do with the original question as is in line with the guide to procedure.

[Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Thank you.

Hon Dlakude?

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

Hon Speaker, the Rules of the House are clear.

The follow up question must come out from the original question.

So, we cannot as this Members of Parliament sneak in something that is not on the original question.

So, the hon member knows the Rules better.


She is the Deputy Chief Whip of the Opposition.

So, we cannot be opportunistic about bringing UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 7 other things that are not necessarily in that question.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Dlakude.

Hon member, would you please take your seat?

I did not recognised you.

[Interjections.]

Take your seat.

I have not recognised you.


Will you please now lower your hand as I address you?

Rule 142(6) says a supplementary question must arise directly from the original question and the reply given that to may not constitute a new question.

That is the Rule.

[Applause.]

And I close that matter.

Now, the hon Deputy President?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, hon Speaker, I am waiting for the next follow up supplementary question.

Ms F A MASIKO: Thank you very much, hon Speaker.


And thank you, hon Deputy President for your response.

Deputy President, in line with the Constitution of the Republic, the President has assigned the Deputy President delegated responsibilities for 2019-24 term of government.

This mainly include providing political leadership as well as to ensure co-ordinate things.
How does the Deputy President ensure that the institution which apart from its delegated responsibility implement their UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 8 programme in according to their mandate?

Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
I think the hon member would appreciate the fact that all the institutions and the structures that we are co-ordinating they have their own terms of reference in terms of what they must perform.

Ours as the Office of the Deputy President is just to co-ordinate the activities so that we achieve the desired goals speedily and ensure that there is effective service delivery from time to time.
And after doing our work of co-ordinating the different departments and institutions we report back to Cabinet about our activities.

Thank you very much.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy President, while the Constitution indicates that the functions of the Deputy President are determined by the President.
Section 90 of the Constitution provides that should the President be unable to perform his duties for any reason the Deputy President must be first in line to assume the responsibilities assigned to the President by the Constitution.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 9 Taking into account with the latest development of the difficult criminal clouds hanging over the President now relating to allegations of money laundering, will you be ready to assume the responsibilities should he resigned as provided for in the Constitution in relations to this criminal cloudy hanging over the President in his head?

Will you attempt to convince him to stay in the office, which not in the country’s interest?
Thank you very much, Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.

I don’t think we have reach that point.

I don’t think we have reached any point that seeks to say the President must step down.

All I know is that, a case has been opened and we have allowed the different institutions of our country to investigate and make a determination.
And beyond that probably a decision will be taken after a determination has been made of which we can’t probably jump the gun and say this is going to be the determination.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

Hon Deputy President, I was a bit confused by the question in the first instance because the question asked whether you signed performance agreement with the President?

And the answer to that is no.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 10 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes.

Mr N SINGH: You did not sign performance agreement with the Ministers and Deputy Ministers.

But being second in charge, Deputy President, I am sure you must be aware of the methodology that used to set performance targets for Ministers and Deputy Ministers.

Are you aware and do you want the President in setting these targets?
And are you satisfied by that most of them if not all of them are meeting the targets that have been set for them in their respective departments?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.

From where I am sitting I think I am satisfied because I participate.

I participate in all the processes.

When the President is sitting talking to individual Ministers I am also present in that meeting.

When the President is talking to individual Deputy Ministers I also take part.
So, my duty is to support the President.

So, I am quite aware of all the processes that we have put in place to set this performance agreement.

Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Question 8: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 11 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
The World Health Assembly agreed at the special session which was held on 29 November to 01 December 2021, to start a process of developing and negotiating a treaty on pandemic prevention, preparedness and response.

To this end, an Intergovernmental Negotiating Body was set up to lead the negotiations and drafting of the treaty, in consultation with various stakeholders including Member States and civil society organisations.
Drawing on the lessons that were learnt from responding to the coronavirus disease 2019, Covid-19, pandemic, the proposed Global Pandemic Treaty will complement the International Health Regulations.

To this end, the agreement will seek to outline the objectives and fundamental principles necessary for effective collective actions to fight against pandemic, address gaps in the current legal framework, and clarify roles and responsibilities of states and international organisations, among others.
It is envisaged that this global treaty will, among others, enhance surveillance of pandemic risks and alerts, ensure uninterrupted health supplies and services and effective research and innovation for timely development of vaccines, treatments and diagnostics, ensure better response mechanisms and implementation as well as restore trust in the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 12 international health system.
Currently, the Intergovernmental Negotiating Body is conducting consultations with stakeholders to produce a working draft of the treaty, which is due to be considered at its meeting later this year.

The 76th session of the World Health Assembly in 2023 will receive a progress report on the draft treaty, with the plan for the treaty to be adopted in 2024.
For South Africa, it is crucial that the treaty is anchored on human rights to ensure equitable access to various available medical solutions in order to improve the health and well- being of all our people, irregardless of their social standing and their geographical location.

When it comes to international agreements, section 231(1) of the Constitution is clear that the negotiation and signing of all international agreements is the responsibility of the national executive.
Parliament will have a role in the ratification of the treaty once concluded, as international agreements become law after being approved by resolution in both the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces.

Simply, this means that international agreements become national law only upon ratification by Parliament.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 13 Therefore, in this regard, it goes without saying that the Minister of Health is enjoined by the Constitution to submit the treaty to Parliament for consideration and approval.

Thank you, hon Speaker.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Speaker and Deputy President.

Public participation in law-making and agreements to any laws which are to be binding to citizens is a fundamental tenet of constitutional democracy that should never be ignored.
Any law affecting a country and the right of citizens to self- determination should be subjected to public scrutiny and participation as well as parliamentary debates if constitutional democracy is to be preserved.

The ACDP is grateful to the 47 African countries led by Botswana that refused to sign amendments to the International Health Regulations this past week at the World Health Assembly in Geneva.
My question to you, Deputy President, is whether after public participation where opinions of citizens would have been solicited, you will ensure that a clear mandate is obtained from the National Assembly and given to the Health Minister and his officials not to sign the proposed amendments to the International Health Regulations which, among others, would UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 14 give additional powers to the World Health Organisation ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Meshoe, your question please to the Deputy President.

Question please.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Yaa, I’m reading the question now, Speaker.
I said my question to the Deputy President is whether after public participation where opinions of citizens would have been solicited, he will ensure that a clear mandate is obtained from the National Assembly and given to the Health Minister and his officials not to sign the proposed amendment to the International Health Relations which, among others, would give additional powers to the World Health Organisation to unilaterally decide to impose decisions on nations of the world thereby undermining their sovereignty.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

I think I’ve answered the question, hon Meshoe, I said that the Minister of Health is enjoined by the Constitution after all the consultations and negotiations with stakeholders to finally bring that report to Parliament for consideration and approval.
Therefore, Parliament will have an opportunity to deliberate on the report on the proposed treaty UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 15 and make amendments where necessary before it becomes law.

That’s what I said.

Mr D L MOELA: Thank you, hon Speaker.

Greetings to the Deputy President and all hon members.
Thank you, Deputy President, for your response especially on section 231 of the Constitution of the Republic that provides the negotiating and signing of all international agreements is the responsibility of the national executive.

You have well captured that.


However, further than that, Deputy President, could the Deputy President outline the consideration that are usually made by the members of the executive in general when discussing the international treaties to ensure the advancement of our national interests.

Thank you, hon Speaker and the Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.

Firstly, as we look at these international treaties as a country we consider first our national interest.
As we discuss and make proposals we do that in the interests of the country first.

Secondly, we do this to deepen our integration into the global community.

You’ll understand from our past that South Africa has been excluded in this international bodies, so it’s important for our participation to deepen our role as a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 16 country and our participation.
Thirdly, to ensure that we protect the human rights of our people following the standards that we set worldwide.

Therefore, we need to set a standard as a country that will assume the standard of the world.

If we want to be the best, we must compare ourselves with the best.

However, all in all we want to elevate the human rights of our people noting our past from where we come from, where these rights were trampled upon by the system that we had to destroy.
Therefore, moving forward we need to elevate these rights and protect them.

So, these are the interests that we take into consideration as we discuss these treaties and take part in this international bodies.

Thank you very much.

Ms M O CLARKE: Thank you.

Good afternoon, Deputy President.

Just in terms of my follow-up question to a certain degree you have answered the clarity I was seeking.
However, I would like to highlight that clear timeframes are set in terms of the draft treaty when it comes to Parliament.

So, it doesn’t become an open-ended matter.

Therefore, once that draft document is ready whether you would set clear timeframes for it to ...

[Inaudible.]

... to Parliament so that we don’t have the same issue we had during Covid where there was no transparency during Covid period and ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 17 corruption was ...

[Inaudible.]

... and Parliament had no oversight during that period of time.

Therefore, could you give that guarantee, Deputy President, I’ll be very happy.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much.

The timetable and the timeframes are set by the World Health Assembly and they have determined exactly when do they want to conclude this treaty.
Therefore, Member States have been given an opportunity to go and discuss in their states and in their countries and consulting all stakeholders which I think in the process you will also be consulted.

You’ll have your own input.

However, before anything can happen to this treaty it’s will be brought back to the House for your ratification and for your final approval.

Thank you very much.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Okay, Speaker I will take it as well.
Deputy President, as things stands there is not even a test of the so-called global pandemic treaty.

Therefore, the issue should not even arise.

What is a concern, however, is the vaccine imperialism that has dominated the global response to the corona pandemic which firstly, led to Western countries holding the vaccine and secondly, to these countries of delegitimising any vaccine development from outside?
Why has UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 18 this country not acquired vaccine produced in China and Russia to fight the corona pandemic?

Was this due to pressure applied by Western Nations who want to monopolise the production and sale of vaccine in the world?

Thank you, Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, hon Speaker.
I think the World Health Organisation has realised the amount of work that it’s needed to co-ordinate any pandemic and any outbreak of any pandemic.
Now, learning from the Covid-19 experience, therefore, they’ve decided to put down a proposal of developing this treaty so that in future we are better place to manage any pandemic that might arise and ensure that developing communities and developing countries are also catered for not like what we’ve seen in this Covid-19 pandemic where developing countries were the last in the queue in terms of getting their vaccines.
In future we want to avoid this situation so that we are better prepared that they should be any equitable distribution of these vaccines and ensure a comprehensive response that will benefit even developing nations.

I think that is the essence of this treaty, is just to promote working together and ensure that those that don’t have the resources are also catered for.

Thank you very much.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 19 Question 9: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The destruction to infrastructure and loss of lives in the floods affected areas, calls on us to ensure that as we rebuild, we do so better and differently.

We acknowledge that the current spatial distribution patterns and water management systems, were not designed to handle severe natural disasters as experienced in the affected provinces.
This calls for a rigorous re-design of our spatial arrangements and proper maintenance of our drainage systems to prevent it from clogging up.

Already, prior to these unfortunate floods, government through the Department of Water and Sanitation, has already started a process to investigate potential impact of projected climate change disasters that are caused by extreme rainfall and tropical cyclones.
To this end, government has put in place interventions for post-floods reconstruction of the infrastructure in affected provinces.

A war room by the Department of Water and Sanitation has been established as part of short-term interventions to assist vulnerable communities with water UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 20 supply and sanitation systems.
This will address current challenges to communities in affected areas, while essential services are being replaced and repaired.
This Water and Sanitation War Room will in the short-term ensure the; provision of relief measures to vulnerable communities through the hired water tankers for a period of 90 days that complement the supply of water to affected municipalities while water services are restored and infrastructure repaired; assistance to affected provinces to implement immediate interventions in order to stabilise water supply and sanitation systems; and avail engineering services from the Department of Water and Sanitation as well as from affected municipalities, to repair or replace essential water and sanitation services infrastructure so that full water supply is returned to normality.
The Department of Water and Sanitation has dispatched a team of multi-disciplinary engineers and technical experts to assess and cost flood damage.

The team will also prepare a report for the Department of Water and Sanitation and the National Treasury, which will include a full cost estimate of the damage caused by the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 21 floods so that adequate resources are allocated to the rehabilitation projects.
The IMC, Inter-Ministerial Committee on Water and Sanitation will continue to monitor these projects and ensure that political oversight is in place to support coordinated efforts to complete these projects.

In the medium to long-term, particularly for the purposes of better preparedness in the vulnerable areas, the response will be to invest in climate-proof infrastructure including climate sensitive drainage systems.
Furthermore, the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency's technical support services to municipalities will ensure that spatial allocation is reshaped, resulting in better access to safer settlements, economic prospects, and long-term infrastructure provision.
Most importantly, local government will need to communicate information to populations living in flood-prone areas as well as provide early warning systems and improved spatial design that is sensitive to environmental conditions, in order to build resilience.

Thank you hon Speaker.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 22 Mr T V MASHELE: Hon Speaker, there are members in the opposition benches who are not wearing masks.
May you please request them ask them to comply to the covid protocols.

The SPEAKER: Hon Radebe?

Hon Radebe?

Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you hon Speaker.

Hon Mashele is drawing t to your attention that there are members of the opposition who are not wearing their masks, I’m very pleased she’s wearing the mask now.

Hon Shaik Emam was not wearing a mask and it is against the Covid-19 regulations.

Hon Macpherson is not the shop steward of the opposition; he cannot interject when the ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

...than you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker I rise on a point of order, point 97.

There is a time and place for a point of order.

The hon member stood up and actually called Mr Macpherson “tjatjarag” and we’ve decided that, that is an unparliamentary word to use in this House.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 23 But I did not stand up unnecessarily because we have our Deputy President standing before us.
So, let us show some respect to the Deputy President and not act like children in the House and respect one another.

If you have a problem with one of my members, please let me know and I will sort it out.

Our Deputy President deserves the respect to answer the questions.

Thank you very much.

The SPEAKER: Thank you hon Mazzone.

Hon members, please do not use the term “tjatjarag” again.

Mr M A TSEKI: Two wrongs do not make a right.

Sesotho: Ke a leboha motsamaisi wa dipuisano.


Tshivenḓa: Ndaa, Mufarisa Muphuresidennde.

English: Early warning systems are important if we are about to mitigate the unknown impact of climate change disaster and our science and innovation entities such as the space when the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 24 centre of South African Weather Service and other institutions have those capabilities.
Therefore, drawing from the recent floods, how will government ensure that affected communities are settled at areas that will not be flood prone and prohibit those who attempt to build in flood prone areas?

How will government strengthen its responses, capabilities to disaster early warning alerts as this has a major impact in the ability of mitigating the impact?

Sesotho: Ke a leboha Motlatsi wa Moporesidente.

English: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you hon Speaker.
The hon member will realise that the provincial government and the municipalities in the area were well prepared for the second round of flooding, people were evacuated and placed in areas of safety beforehand.

I think we need to strengthen those institutions and communication so that we save our people.
Going forward we are UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 25 going to strengthen our early warning systems and we are able to reach our people in the far flung areas where there is no network communication.

We are going to try our best to ensure that we save our people but as we relocate our people to safer places, we will do so and ensure that we are not going to rebuild human settlements in areas that are prone to disasters.
Cash will be taken by both the provincial government as well as the metros and the municipalities so that this cannot happen again.

Also, going forward as we build our roads and water infrastructure, we should take into consideration that one day there will be floods.

We need to place infrastructure that is better prepared to withstand the changing weather conditions.

Thank you very much.

Mr L J BASSON: Thank you Madam Speaker.


Deputy President, KwaZulu-Natal is still waiting for treasury to cough up R1 billion for relief funds for the reconstruction of infrastructure promised by President Cyril Ramaphosa two months ago.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 26 Durban’s economy has taken a major blow and now the eThekwini municipality must borrow R500 million to repair the city’s infrastructure that was damaged by the recent floods.
The damaged infrastructure has led to the decline in revenue and has the potential of undermining the confidence of current and future investors and undermining the city’s growth prospect.

eThekwini needs the money to deliver services but government is not coming to the party and now rate payers must pay for government’s failure.

Deputy President, why must they borrow money and how are you going to assist the metro to repair the infrastructure?

Thank you Deputy President.


The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you hon Deputy Speaker, from what I know regarding progress that has been made, a number of departments are already intervening in the area.

I’m aware of the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure in terms of the bridges in the area, I’m aware of the work that is done by the Department of Water and Sanitation, I’m aware of the work that is done by the Department of Transport just to name a few.
The provincial government is working together with the National Treasury.

The provincial government has been directed UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 27 to reprioritise its budget.

A number of areas like the Department of Health has managed to reprioritise money to repair some of the clinics, Departments of Public Works, Road and Transport managed to reprioritise money.
So, that is progressing very well and the National Treasury is working together with the province to identify grants that were supposed to be meant for the province and those grants are put aside to support the metros as well as the municipalities.

That’s the progress that I am able to provide.

Speaker, if possible we can provide a clear account in terms of all the projects that are undertaken on the ground.
Well, I’m aware that there are still communities that are still housed in community halls and city halls.

The Department of Human Settlements along with the province are doing everything possible to build houses for those communities and in a very short space of time they will be resettled to their new homes.

Thank you very much.

Ms T BREEDT: Thank you Madam Speaker.


The great amount of government resources, money and focus will be spent on the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 28 flood stricken areas of the North West, Eastern Cape and KZN.

The disaster has been devastating and as such, as much as possible needs to be done to assist.

It is however well known that this Inter-Ministerial Committee on Water and Sanitation has not only been brought into being by these most recent floods.
Many commitments specifically sewage related have been made to address and processes have started in other municipalities regarding water and sanitation crisis that are not in these affected flood areas.

Hon Deputy President, how will you ensure that these commitments are not left forgotten and these communities left exposed to human rights violations due to their need for water and a healthy environment with sewage pollution?

I thank you.
I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much Speaker.

Cabinet is getting a progress report from time to time on what is happening on the ground.

I want this House to appreciate the extend of the problem as we are trying to repair, relocate people and are still working on trying to find the missing people.
All these are happening UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 29 concurrently as we try to repair and bring some services to the people, we are also trying to find the missing people.

It is very difficult but that is not an excuse not to move faster.
So, we want to promise the people of KZN that government is going to do better and we are going to up our pace in terms of resolving some of the issues that are confronted by these communities especially building long lasting houses for them.

We know that they are pulling hard in terms of housing their families.
These temporary places are not good for families and I’m sure people will appreciate the fact that government is trying everything in its power to ensure that we restore these places to normality given the difficult financial situation that we find ourselves in.

Thank you very much.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you hon Speaker.

Deputy President, you say that the infrastructure was not developed for disasters of this nature, but between 1980 and 2010, there were 77 floods in KwaZulu-Natal.
Now, my question is, and I don’t believe money is the only solution to the problems in KwaZulu-Natal.

Eight years ago UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 30 when I was a councillor there, the water loss was 17% and today it’s sitting at 52%.

That is how bad the infrastructure is crumbling.


So, the question is, if you are going to rely on the same skills, same expertise, same people that fail you all these years to ensure that there was proper maintenance for the infrastructure, how are we going to solve the problem now when the infrastructure is beyond rehabilitation it means you have to put new infrastructure particularly in water and sanitation?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much hon Speaker.
In trying to assess the damage that was caused by the floods, we set up a team of engineers to go and assess the situation and what was wrong with the current infrastructure, what was wrong with the current drainage system and I’m sure they putting a report together to say this is what was wrong and as you rebuild, you need to redesign better so that you can accommodate flooding and some difficult weather conditions that from time to time may come.
So, I’m confident that as we move forward, we will have learned something from this disaster especially this one was UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 31 worse and I think we should take some lessons and try and do better.

As we build a road we must know that this area is prone to flooding.

As we build a bridge, we must know that this area is prone to flooding.

So, we need to redesign the way we layout our infrastructure, our roads and our buildings.
I’m sure you would have appreciated the seriousness of the situation where a foundation of church building moved.

I don’t think those who designed that building had anticipated this problem.

As we go forward, I think we need to change our way of building so that we move with the time.

Climate change is here and it’s real.

Thank you very much.


Question 10: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, we remain committed to ensuring the dignity of every South African, and we will continue to visit every part of the country, including Tsitsikamma, to trigger the necessary development where specific interventions at the level of the Presidency are required.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 32 For instance, in April 2021, we visited the area and handed over land to the community of Covie village, after a successful land settlement claim.

The land had been lost when it was declared part of the Tsitsikamma National Park.

Fishing rights, food security, a lack of economic prospects, and agricultural support are all issues that communities face.
Given the land’s characteristics, it should be used successfully for commercial and agricultural purposes.

The Covie community’s food security and livelihood are mainly reliant on coastal resources, and the area offers abundant agricultural and ecotourism potential.
As part of our postsettlement assistance, we emphasised the government’s focus on agricultural support initiatives, to ensure the productive and sustainable use of the land, as well as the provision of critical service delivery infrastructure, such as roads, electricity, water and sanitation to support economic mobility and improve the life of the community.
The national and provincial governments committed to implementing cohesive intervention measures, to address some of the difficulties faced by the Tsitsikamma communities, in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 33 accordance with our delegated responsibilities on land reform and agriculture.
Specifically, we are exploiting the area’s economic potential, by also focusing on nonagricultural businesses like tourism, as well as promoting small business ventures to make the Tsitsikamma villages thrive.

However, we must agree that limited resources continue to be a significant hindrance to exploring such possibilities.

Notwithstanding such hindrance, the following progress has been made since the handover.
Firstly, the Community Property Association collaborated with the National Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development and the Department of Agriculture in the province to design the establishment of pastures totalling 50 hectares, in order to reintroduce cattle farming to the area.

Secondly, the Department of Social Development has opened a Community Nutrition and Development Centre, which provides food and day care services to the community.
Thirdly, in collaboration with Sanparks, the Covie Communal property association, CPA, has focused on reviving the Honeybush tea project.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 34 Fourthly, the Covie CPA has formed a partnership with a private developer and signed a memorandum of agreement, to form a venture for the development of both the commonage and allotments.
Lastly, R12,3 million was transferred to the Covie CPA in consideration of compensation for land that could not be transferred to the community because it belongs to SanParks.

A follow-up visit to the Tsitsikamma area will be beneficial to assess the development and impact of our postsettlement support.

Our visit should focus on the additional support needed to improve economic prospects for the people surrounding the Tsitsikamma National Park, both in provinces of the Eastern Cape and the Western Cape.
In order for our land reform and rural development program to be successful, we must focus our support and interventions on the integration of our country’s rural areas, which must be complemented by agricultural and infrastructure development, to ensure sustainable rural communities and livelihoods.

Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 35 Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, allow me to thank you for the initiative you have already put in place.
However, many challenges still exist in that area, given the fact that right up to Tsitsikamma, right up to just before Covie, the levels of poverty are very high.

There are high levels of unemployment in that area, substance abuse and things.

There are still opportunities for growing of maize, wheat, poultry farming, etc.

I think what the community needs is a push, they need some assistance from government to come there to put these initiatives in place and drive these processes forward.
There is lots of land available and people are willing to do that.

So, will you consider then, at some stage, where there is free space in your diary, to pay a visit and engage with the community so they can have some further development, given fact that wheat is a crisis in South Africa with the war between Russia and Ukraine?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the Department of Agriculture nationally and in both provinces are doing very well in trying to support the community that has been given back their land.

On the other side, in the Eastern Cape, you would appreciate the fact that the provincial government has supported that community to upgrade their dairy farms and to ensure that they get some pastures.
They were UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 36 also supported to rebuild some of the infrastructure that was not there, some of the roads that were not there.

So, we want to thank the Eastern Cape Provincial Government.

The Western Cape Government has supported the Covie community and we are going to support and join the Western Cape Provincial Government in the building of the allotments and the commonages for tourism.
So, there are a lot of opportunities available, especially economic activities that are related to the sea, tourism and all the resources that are in the sea, such as fishing.

These people feed themselves from day to day from fishing.

So, they are going to be supported and I am sure they are going to be given fishing licenses, so that they can fish for productive use.

They can open up their businesses.

That area that has been resettled, the community, is a very prime area for tourism, agriculture.
All we need is to consistently support the communities to make use of that land for their own benefit.

Thank you very much.

Mr S S SOMYO: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, thank you for giving us information on the ultimate benefits to the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 37 communities in that area.

I have had a good experience on my drive to the Eastern Cape, recently.

I went into the area meeting the community there.


They are very excited to have a benefit of that nature.

The land itself is breath-taking, the environment is well kept, ...

[Inaudible.]

... in the sense of how the government has undertaken to give it over, as it were, to those communities there.

And it is a very good gesture of ensuring that through reservation, our communities could have a taste of the natural environment.
The question remains: How will government, generally, led by yourself, keep the current land use purpose to the minimum and somewhat give them instruction on the plan development in as far as ... [Time expired.]

... environment is concerned.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, we are confident that going forward, the land is going to be utilised in a very responsible manner, because of the relationship between the people and Sanparks.
Sanparks is helping the community around to preserve certain areas, to preserve certain trees for conservation.

Again, Sanparks is helping the communities around, to develop projects that, in a way, can sustain the environment, like the project that we have mentioned – the honeytea.

The honeytea UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 38 will be grown there under the supervision of Sanpark, so that the environment is kept up to scratch and not destroyed.
Again, I am sure that the Department of Tourism would want to come closer to ensure that, as we attract tourists in the area, we do that without destroying the very essence of that environment, the beauty of that environment.

Surely, the Department of Agriculture, national and the two provinces will do their agricultural activities, keeping in mind that that area is bordering some conservation areas that must be kept for future generations.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The SPEAKER: Before I proceed to invite the hon member who will ask the next supplementary question, I wish to caution hon members against making long statements.

You make long statements, you finish your time and then you have to go overtime to ask your questions.

Please, don’t put me in that situation, hon members.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Hon Speaker, it is Ms Mkhalipi on behalf of hon Ntlangweni.
Deputy President, last week, there was land tenure sumemit hosted, which addresses issue relating to access to and tenure to land.

Land is the single most UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 39 important determinant of opportunities for rural people.

In 2010, the Constitutional Court struck down the Communal Land Rights Act, Clara, because it gives more powers to traditional leaders in relation to land in the rural areas.
Does your government have plans to revive a Clara type of legislation?

If you do, what lessons have you learned from Clara in relations to the rights of rural people to their own land and how will this people be protected from traditional leaders who sell off pieces of land to commercial enterprises?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: With the Communal Land Tenure Summit that was held, we are, in the main, trying to find a very peaceful and permanent way of dealing with land in our communal areas.

Of course, there is a voice from the people living in those communities that they want to own this land.

There are traditional councils that also see it very differently and feel the land must belong to the traditional council.

We have kings and queens that have a different view.
So, we have made proposals to the summit.

Now, there are varying options that are available to all of us and it was quite clear at the end of the summit that we cannot have one size fits all.

Different communities might want a different UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 40 policy option; other communities might be suitable for a different policy option.
So, as we move forward, we are going to present the proposal from that summit and present it to Cabinet for further guidance, so that finally, we can develop the necessary legislation that will seek to accommodate the tenure system in our communal areas.

Going forward, we are going to recognise our traditional leaders and their traditional systems.

We are going to recognise our traditional communities with their customs and values.
So, we will find a middle ground and ensure that people utilise this land productively for their economic activities, so that they can better their lives.

So, that discussion is ongoing and we are approaching a point where we are going to legislate these policy options.

Thank you very much.

Mr W M THRING: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, there are many Tsitsikammas dotted and spread throughout South Africa in need of economic development, job creation and small business development.
Areas such as Marion Bridge, ...

[Inaudible.]

... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 41 Tsilinyama, Dussenhok, ...

[Inaudible.]

... are such areas.

The main road leading to these areas called Milky Way has been completely destroyed by the floods recently and trucks and other vehicles having to drive residential area of Marion Heights, Marion Bridge, adding to the economic hardships of the residents, as well as damaging the roads infrastructure.
The President of ACDP, Rev Dr Kennith Meshoe visited some of these areas.

Now, as the leader of government business, what guarantees or assistance, if any, can you give to the residents of these areas that I mentioned, that like Tsitsikamma are also desperately in need of economic development?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I think all the Tsitsikammas who are scattered all over must go back to their place.

We have given them back the land that they must go and utilise.
So, wherever they are, they must go back.

They have the land now.

They have something that they can work on.

However, on a serious note, we want to assure that community that we would continuously support them until they have reached a point where they are self-sustainable.

We are going to assist them with the infrastructure like the roads there, water infrastructure, sanitation.

We are going to assist then UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 42 to till the land.
We are going to assist them to keep livestock and to do a number of projects that can define their economic way of life.

So, support to that community is guaranteed and I think they have now in the bank R12,3 million that we are paying them for the land that we could not resituate, because it is within the park.

So, they have money in their hands.

They can plan for some of the projects.

Of course, the two governments, the Western Cape government and the Eastern Cape government have committed to assist.
The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development is also taking part in assisting these communities to make use of this land.

Thank you very much.

Question 11: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, as government we are cognisant of the negative impact of load shedding on the country’s economy and the inconvenience and hardship it causes to the country.

However, load shedding is a last resort lever to protect the system from blackout, which is a total loss of the electricity network.
Government has created a regulatory environment that is conducive to opening up the market for alternative power UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 43 generation.

Within the framework of the 2019 integrated resource plan, alternative energy generation measures are being explored and implemented to augment electricity supply and improve the stability of the grid.
Furthermore, the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy has issued determinations on the required new generation capacity in concurrence with the National Energy Regulator of South Africa.

We must make the point that Eskom’s load shedding is not as a result of limited market role for alternative power generation, but mainly as a result of breakdowns encountered from the old and aging power generation infrastructure.
An improvement in the reliability and predictability of the coal fleet requires adequate financial resources and generation capacity surplus on the system to execute the required additional reliability maintenance.

To achieve this, Eskom is driving the generation turnaround programme.

As coal- fired units and stations are shut down, it is essential that new generation capacity be added to the grid to ensure energy security.
Overall, the country has an immediate need for 4 000 megawatts to 6 000 megawatts additional generation capacity with immediate effect.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 44 To this end, the following interventions have been implemented.

As part of our just energy transition strategy, Eskom has proposed an extra 8] 000 megawatts of clean energy projects to be added to the grid over the next two to five years.
This is a mix of greenfield renewables and gas projects as well as coal power plant repurposing.

Government is also considering various changes which will speed up the acquisition of independent power producers and to reduce further red tape.

An announcement in this regard will be made once all the necessary tasks have been completed.
In addition, Eskom has presented a transmission development plan to meet the country's capacity demands which calls for the construction of 8 000 kilometres of line over the next 10 years.

This project will necessitate substantial funding which Eskom has proposed as part of the just energy transition financing and regulatory support for land and servitude acquisition.
Eskom has proposed a holistic approach to decarbonisation and environmental compliance by accelerating the retirement of ageing and unreliable coal plants as part of its commitment to the country's just energy transition plan.

This will be done UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 45 in a manner that is both socially and environmentally responsible.
Co-ordination across all tiers of government is critical in achieving our just transition as it will ensure energy supply stability and provide a much-needed reprieve from the detrimental effects of load shedding in the future.

In accordance with our constitutional and international commitments, we reiterate our commitment to establishing a socially inclusive decarbonisation growth path that prioritises environmental sustainability.
Climate change is here with us and it is an existential threat to all of us and South Africa is committed to assisting in the reduction of global emissions.

To this end, the President formed the Presidential Climate Commission which will advise on the country's climate change response and support a just transition to a low carbon climate resilient economy and society.
The Presidential Climate Commission encourages debate among social partners on these challenges identifying the type of economy and society we want to attain and outlining UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 46 comprehensive paths to get there.

The Presidential Climate Commission has created a framework for a just transition which allows for discussion of practical concerns such as jobs, local economies, skills, social support, and governance.
The framework is based on the country's current body of knowledge as well as the National Development Plan's vision.

Our transition must maintain policy alignment across all levels of government, including the current Climate Change Bill which is before Parliament.
As a county, we must guarantee that we implement new infrastructure, technologies and solutions that allow us to meet ambient air quality standards while also safeguarding community members from the negative impact of environmental externalities.

Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

Mr S T MANELI: Thank you, Speaker.

Thank you, hon Deputy President for the response.


The interventions that are being undertaken will go a long way in ensuring that there are no electricity disruptions to the people and the economy.

It is also encouraging to hear about the interventions with regard to just energy transition.
My question is, what is the level of interest from the independent power producers to take UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 47 advantage of the opportunities provided by the government through various bid windows to provide additional energy to the grid?

Thank you Deputy President and Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The independence power producers are very excited and, of course, they are participating.
Today, they have almost connected 1 800 megawatts to the grid.

Gradually, they are coming into the party, but, of course not at a speed that we are expecting to solve our current problems of load shedding.

We can guarantee that the future is going to be better with the independence power producers - the renewable energies that are from time to time connected to the grid.
All announcements that have been made by the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy allowed all bid windows to contribute power to the grid.

Finally, that is going to give us more energy for the future.

We are hoping that all those independent power producers who have been given these projects can speed up the development of these project and connect to the grid.

South Africans, as we speak, need more and more energy.

Thank you very much.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 48 Dr W J BOSHOFF: Thank you Speaker and hon Deputy President.

I would like to know if we should expect any time soon a complete deregulated electricity market where the actual smart network is able to calculate the actual availability of power and the demand for electricity at a specific time and calculate the price according to that?

In fact, remove all market failures out of a regulated market.
I just want to add to that that if we really take the whole question of climate change seriously one should actually encourage renewables by even subsidising it if one takes a long-term perspective.

But in South Africa coal is still in a sense protected by a regulatory framework that limits the entrance of renewables into the network.

Thank you, hon Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker.
Well, I think as we stand here I think the market is gradually opening up, firstly for renewables.

All independent power producers are now allowed to generate energy and connect it to the grid.

We have also allowed municipalities to generate their own energy.

Yes, I can say we are opening up this market so that Eskom must not remain a monopoly.
I am sure down the line we are going to open for more and more players like we have done with the private sector - businesses that can generate up to 100 megawatts.

Yes, we are constantly opening UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 49 up the market, but in a very responsible manner.

Thank you very much.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Thank you very much, Speaker.


Deputy President, you are aware of the severe impact of load shedding in the South African economy which causes loss of outputs of approximately R700 million per day according to the estimates.

It also contributes to the massive job losses in the country.

Now you will recall that the shareholder strategic intent outlined government short to medium and long-term objectives for Eskom.
I want to ask, since this shareholders strategic intent has been adopted a long time ago, whether government does indeed hold Eskom to account to ensure that these objectives outlined in the intent, firstly, are implemented?

Secondly, the destruction is not linked to an allegation that some of these independent power producers have some political connected individuals, meaning that they have vested interest in the destruction of Eskom?

Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much.

Well, load shedding is a situation which I think is not desirable for the economy.

We understand the frustration that our people are facing on a daily basis as we are going through this load shedding.

We have explained a number of times more UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 50 or less the reasons.

Of course South Africans don’t want to hear the reasons, but they want to hear solutions.
Maybe it is important to once again reaffirm the reasons that account for load shedding.

We have a new built infrastructure that has design effect like your Medupi and Kusile which by now should be operating in full steam capacity.

But because of the design effects there are some units in Medupi and Kusile that are still not functional.

That is reducing our capacity.

Again, we have the power plants that have gone beyond their lifespan.
We are pushing them very hard and the maintenance bill has gone high.

To maintain these power plants has become more and more expensive for Eskom.

Of course the unplanned breakages in these plants disrupt the plans for Eskom to do proper maintenance that is scheduled.

That is why Eskom will announce load shedding in the middle of the night because a certain plant has broken down.

This is not according to the planned outages that is planned by Eskom.
Be that as it may, the plan that we have put forward in terms of our IRP 2019 is that we have allowed the different energy alternatives to come into play.

In the main we have allowed renewables.

That has UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 51 been a long journey from bid window 1 and we are now at bid window 5, 6, 7 and we continue.

But like I said this is not giving us the energy that we require now.
We are getting it in bits and pieces and load shedding continues to be with us.

But I want to assure South Africans that the plan that we have now will give us reliable energy in a space of nine months.

We are going to pursue these independent power producers to bring their energy into the grid.

We are going to allow Eskom to consider putting a coal- powered plan.

Of course we are aware of the carbon emissions and maybe we are going to find some technicians who are going to reduce the emissions.
We are going to use what is available - the abundant coal resources that we have.

We are targeting the 1 500 megawatts that we are going to use from coal.

But we are also targeting 3 000 from gas to power.

I think this will be in a position to give us some immediate relieve if we act with the speed and urgency that it deserves.

Yes, it is not a solution if people want to hear that load shedding is going to end tonight.
It is not something which is going to end load shedding tonight, but yes, down the line there are prospects of ending load shedding.

Thank you very much.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 52 Mrs N W A MAZZONE: Deputy President, I am sure that you will agree that there are more 3 000 megawatts into the grid is the number one priority to the South Africans in terms of electricity and energy.
One of the challenges that various independent power producers in the industry that we have heard have identified is the local content requirements.

In fact, Eskom CEO Andre de Ruyter has agreed and noted that it was leading to a shortfall in capacity as local solar panel manufacturers cannot meet the demand.
Deputy President, in your capacity as the Leader of Government Business, will you take steps to ensure that this requirement is removed and that the independent power producers, IPPs, and Eskom are allowed to purchase their equipments and from whatever supplier they choose whether local or international, and that they meet the requirements?

And if you do not remove that why don’t you?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much.
My role as Leader of Government Business confines my work only in Parliament, and not in real government business.

We have Minister Patel who is responsible for co-ordinating the business that government does with the private sector.
This is really a concern that has been noted that some of the components that the independent power producers need to assemble and the plans up are not readily available and it UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 53 takes time to source them and therefore making it very difficult in terms of the timeframe to deliver these projects.
Be that as it may, that is going to be work in progress, but there is commitment in terms of those independent power producers to do whatever possible in their powers to ensure that they deliver these projects on time so that energy can be connected to the grid.

We are not relying on them, but we are pushing ahead like I’m saying that Eskom must also take a responsibility to enter the renewable space.

Eskom must be able to do solar energy; Eskom must be able to do wind energy.
This space is not restricted to independent power producers only.

Eskom can also play in this space.

Beyond that Eskom can play in the space of gas as we continue with coal but ensure that there are technologies that will limit the emissions of carbon from our coal products.
Gas as much as we want to really deal with the frustrations in terms of the supply and demand of all these components that are needed in the renewables it will demand on the market processes which we hope business is well better place to push for these components to be delivered on time depending on the agreements with their suppliers.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 54 The situation is definitely going to improve and finally we are going to deliver these plants, but not at the time when we needed them most.

Finally, these plants are going to be delivered.

Thank you very much.


Question 12: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, we have since witnessed an incredible outpouring of solidarity and co- operation from a diverse range of stakeholders, including individuals, organizations, business and agencies in the aftermath of the floods that resulted in massive loss of lives and destruction of property and infrastructure, displacement of families particularly in KwaZulu-Natal, KZN.
As the government, we want to commend and applaud these co- operative efforts from all the Good Samaritans that have donated in kind.

Our government’s response to this catastrophic calamity is three-pronged and summarized as follows.

Immediate humanitarian relief, ensuring that all the affected people firstly are safe in that their basic needs are met wherever they are.
Secondly, stabilization and recovery, which includes finding a shelter for these people who have lost their homes and restoring service provision.

And finally, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 55 the reconstruction and rehabilitation with a focus of building back and building better.

The first phase of the three-pronged approach has mostly focused on providing urgent humanitarian relief, ensuring that all affected people are safe and that their basic needs are satisfied.
As much as we do that, providing urgent humanitarian relief, we are also proceeding to find the missing people.

This has been hindered by the return of our floods in eThekwini municipality and nearby areas over the past two weeks.

In this case, we want to applaud the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal and the was a KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Government for their efforts to expedite recovery and reconstruction in the affected area.
Collaboration of all spheres of government and organs of state continues to improve the situation on the ground, not at the required pace of course.

It is a difficult situation and we want to appeal for appreciation of the complexity of what we are confronted with.
With regards to phase two of our intervention, government is making headway with stabilization and recovery actions, including rehousing, those who have been displaced and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 56 restoring basic services.

This is still an early stage.

Like I’ve said before, there are some families that are still housed city halls and places that are not conducive for a family to live in.
As previously mentioned, the Department of Water and Sanitation has established water and sanitation war room to assist the province in the affected areas particularly in eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality in the restoration of water services and addressing water and infrastructure related challenges.
To this end, to water supply restoration which has progressed in many regions of eThekwini with the exception of the Tongaat supply system which remains a major challenge, - You might have seen communities very unhappy about that system.

This is due to the critical water infrastructure that was badly destroyed.

We are advised that the restoration of the Tongaat Waterworks is expected to take three to six months to complete.
In this regard, we appreciate the intervention being made by the South African National Defence Force.

As we are speaking, they are on the ground, especially in providing water to social facilities in the area.

This has ensured that schools UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 57 remain functional and our learners are not adversely affected during this examination period.
Our word of appreciation also goes to nongovernment organisations, NGOs, and private sector that has lent support to the needy households, especially for the elderly.

Since all affected people should be taken care of without losing a single day of their lives without basic necessities, the criticism that the process has been slow is expected and it’s well placed.

However, the severity of the situation necessitates time to fix all this.
Even with all the difficulties that we face in the area, we want to appraise this House that affected municipalities and government departments have been conducting technical assessment of the damage and the costs and recommending some short, medium and long-term measures to address the situation.
Last month, the national government received the co-ordinated response intervention and requested funds for both essential and emergency repairs as well as long-term solutions to restore normality to the affected areas.
The National Treasury has issued a directive outlining public management and budgeting systems that will be used in the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 58 event of the national disaster to guarantee that services to the impacted communities are not disrupted.
Affected provincial departments and municipalities have already begun to process the process of reprioritizing their budgets and submitting requests to the National Disaster Management Centre for the repurposing of funds in conditional grants, focusing primarily on humanitarian relief and emergency repairs of critical infrastructure such as water, waste management, electricity, roads, and some engineering infrastructure as well as social services such as healthcare facilities.
Hon Chairperson, we will continue to monitor and assist land identification processes by the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure so that we move with the housing initiatives by the Department of Human Settlements to relocate all the affected communities into safer areas.

Thank you very much.

Mrs N W A MAZZONE: Deputy President, thank you for your answer.

And I must say you’re what you say sounds noble, and it sounds very well intentioned.
But you have to admit that what we’ve seen in terms of corruption, during covid and otherwise, we are going to have to keep an extra close eye on what we do with relief measures in KwaZulu-Natal, KZN.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 59 There are a few things that I have noticed that had really terrified me and my colleague, Dean McPherson who is the DA chairperson in KZN.
He got me some facts that most of the rivers in KZN have probably marked red, which means that they are in a critical condition and that their eco line levels are extremely dangerous.

Others are orange, which means the eco line levels are high and few are given green, which means they’re acceptable.

The one good thing that we have going is that there are 199 sites that have been identified as emergency shelters, and 65 of these centres have actually approved for permanent stay structures.
We have the Task Team that is going to KZN to overlook relief measures relations.

Can we expect that this Task Team will be given all tender details, cost details and details about water safety, which in turn makes sure that we have human safety.

And that you will bring that information to Parliament for us to scrutinise so that we can make sure that we never ever, have a repeat of the corruption that we’ve seen in the past?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon House Chair, certainly, we are going to bring information to Parliament.

We UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 60 will evaluate progress on the ground from time to time.

I’m sure you will also undertake your own oversight visits.

But we will endeavour to provide Parliament with the necessary information.

We must assure this House that we are going to try everything in our power to prevent corruption.
But remember as we plan as we work, there are those that are planning to steal somewhere.

So, we must be wiser and be faster and be better than them so that we avoid these public resources to be stolen.

We want to assure that we are going to deal with corruption where we find it?

Whoever is going to steal government, money, public resources, those people are going to be dealt with.
As we are sitting here ... Because one day we might come back and say we told you that some people are going to steal money.

We are going to try our best to ensure that no money is stolen.

We are going to put our risk mitigation measures to ensure that these funds are protected.

But where they try to steal, we are going to chase and arrest them.

So, I’m giving this assurance that we are going to work smarter and better to ensure that public resources are safe this time.

Thank you very much.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 61 Ms A F MUTHAMBI: Deputy President, given that we are already experiencing the predicted strong and frequent life threatening weather events in the form of storms, landslides, floods, droughts and heatwaves, what is the government doing to capacitate those rural municipalities with no tax base, particularly where there are high levels of poverty and vulnerabilities to have access to smart early warning system, build a more climate and disaster resilient society, efficient and well-capacitated rapid response system?
Thank you so much House Chairperson.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, I think the first and foremost thing that we must take into consideration is how we build our human settlement.

This is a message that we have put across our traditional leaders who at times continue to allocate pieces of land for people to build and reside.

Some of our municipalities under their jurisdiction allow people to build and stay anywhere.
I think we must try and tighten that situation so that we move away from disaster prone areas.

And before we can create a settlement, we should allow a thorough process of assessment of the area, and allow all engineers to come and assess the area, and give us a green light before we build a human settlement.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 62 But once again, we must be able to communicate with our people in those rural areas in terms of our warning systems.
Like KZN did in the recent second round of floods.

I think they did very well after getting the early warning system.

They went down to convey this message to our communities.

And some people were removed and resettled, because we were expecting rain, and this rain only damaged the infrastructure but people had already been relocated.

So, that was a first step in the right direction in terms of warning our people communicating these messages to forewarn them before the disaster.
Of course, we can do better in terms of developing our warning systems, strengthening our disaster centres, so that we can communicate and circulate information timeously in order to prevent loss of life and livelihoods.

Thank you very much.


Ms S A BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, I wish to find out from the Deputy President whether the national government will offer any scheme by which people who had lost their life savings through the destruction of their property can be prioritized through subsidies and apply for loans, from government or any other partner institution to rebuild their homes at favourable rates?

Thank you, Chairperson.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 63 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much.

Well this is a proposal and suggestion that may well be considered by government.

But as of now, we are looking at the displaced people that must be resettled.

And if you look at the economic prospects of these people, these are people who can’t afford to build their own houses.

These people rely solely on the support of government.
But there are those who are earning and gainfully employed, that might want some subsidies from government.

But the people that we are talking about here, I think these are people that are in need, that have lost everything that are unable to fend for themselves.

They rely solely on the government support for the houses, for the belongings that they’ve lost in order to return back to normal life.

Thank you very much.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No, it’s me House Chair, Mkhaliphi.
Deputy President two weeks ago your Minister in the Presidency, Mondli Gungubele reported that government was still collecting data on the extent of the damage before intervening in helping people affected by floods in KZN.

To this day, they are still people missing and thousands more are still housing controlled.

By when will you have a full picture as government of what is going on in KZN?
When will you ensure that everyone who has had their homes destroyed have new homes built for UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 64 them?

Because as I’m listening to you, you are saying that one of the things that you are doing is to identify land.

Some of those people who lost their homes have their own land, but there is no co-ordinated programme even from the Office of the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal because no one knows what needs to happen to those people.
IsiZulu: Bahleli nje abazi ... English: ... what is going to happen to them.

People are sick and tired of long speeches about their plight because of floods in KZN.

Can you please tell us what needs to be done now as a way forward in order for us go back as Members of Parliament and tell people what will happen going forward from now?

Thank you very much House.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: House Chair, to the hon member, we really appreciate and understand the sensitivity of this matter.
But however, we said in our response that some of the interventions that we’re doing are going to happen concurrently.

What does that mean?

It means that we are still going to continue to find the missing people.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 65 These communities, some families won’t find closure until such time we find those that are missing.

So, that will be an ongoing effort on the side of government to help those communities to find their loved ones.
Secondly, we need to respond by providing quick services like water.

That’s why there are water tankers so that you give people water as much as you fix the infrastructure.

There are these people that have been moved to town halls, city halls, that have been removed from their collapsed structures.

These communities and families cannot stay there forever.

In the process, we are rebuilding houses.


A few houses have been built and in terms of the suitable to resettle this process, government has done enough and we have moved very fast.

Public Works has identified four pieces of land in the area where we can relocate these people.

So, what I’m trying to say hon members is that everything is going to go concurrently.

As we search, we provide services and rebuilt.

It might happen that some elements of the interventions might lag behind.
But it’s not that we are doing nothing as government.

We said and we have made an undertaking that we are going to report progress to Parliament in terms of what we have achieved and what is lagging behind.

But all of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 66 us must make it an effort to try and assist those people there.

We must thank businesses, nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, that have come into the space to support these families.
They have given them blankets as well as food.

And as we speak, these families are still alive and looked after, but of course, we are worried about shelter and the services they must receive.

Thank you very much.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES BILL The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: Thank you very much, hon House Chair.

House Chair, I move that the Report be adopted.

Thank you.

There was no debate.

Question put.


Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 67 CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES (ADMINISTRATION) AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE PREMIUMS BILL The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: Thank you very much, House Chair.

House Chair, I move that the Report be adopted by this august House.

There was no debate.

Question put.


Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.

FIRST READING DEBATE – FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES BILL And SECOND READING DEBATE – FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES (ADMINISTRATION) AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE PREMIUMS BILL UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 68 The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, hon House Chair.
House Chair, today we present to you the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Bill as amended by the Standing Committee on Finance.

House Chair, you will recall the impact of the global financial crisis and the necessity to respond to that challenge in the sense that systemic risk by the financial sector was not only a challenge to themselves, this was a challenge with fiscus in the economy in general.
For that reason, there has been a global response to supervised banks more intrusively, intensively and effectively.

We have also as a country adopted an overarching policy framework titled and I quote; “Safer financial sector to serve SA better” to regulate the financial sector.

In line with that regulatory institutions were created to support that objective.
That led to the transition to what is called Twin- Peaks system of financial sector regulation and has been necessary in order to achieve more effective regulation.

This requires adequate funding and resourcing for the regulators as a final step in the reforms designed by the government and endorsed by this House when it passed the Financial Service Representative, FSR, Act.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 69 Institutions will be need to be adequately resourced.
Those institutions among them is the Financial Sector Tribunal; the Ombuds Council Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Pension Funds adjudicator and Ombuds for financial service providers.

Government is cognisant of the current economic climate as well as the adverse economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic and the financial strain that business and financial customers are under at the moment.
It is important, however, to view the proposed levies through the lenses of several mitigating factors that provide clarity as well as context when analysing the figures.

One such factor is that the Bill imposes a cost less than most peer economies with comparable size sophistication and regulated architecture.
Furthermore, the approach in the distribution of the total collected levies is on proportionate basis as smaller financial institutions pay less than their larger counterparts would pay the bulk of the levies as they would require more regulation given their systematic and complex nature.

In addition, government working with stakeholders is taking serious steps to mitigate the cost of those temporal unable to discharge their obligations.
We then mentioned those cost - mindful of time, hon Chairperson, I am galloping in order to meet your time obligations, I had drafted a long speech.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 70 Hon House Chairperson, I conclude with crucial note on the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies and Deposit Insurance Premium Bill.

This is a section 75 Bill, not a section 77 Money Bill.

However, it does have consequences from a funding perspective.
As I mentioned before, the SA Reserve Bank is the designated financial stability and resolution authority in terms of the Financial Service Representative, FSR, Act.

To equip it with the necessary tools to maintain financial stability we have established a Deposit Insurance Fund that will be administered and maintained by the corporation, but entirely funded by the banking industry to an estimated amount of about R548 million through premium contributions.
The major beneficiary of the scheme are depositors who will be protected in the event of the bank fallout.

The policy intervention will enable the protection of depositors up to 100 000 per individual and cover 90% of the depositors, including the most vulnerable customers.

Once again, we will delay implementation to allow sufficient time for the industry to make adequate preparations while the Reserve Bank will absorb the corporation startup funding requirements at no cost to the industry.
I therefore, Madam Speaker, and other members of the House, thank you for that.

[Applause.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 71 Ms P N ABRAHAM: House Chair, this is the Report of the Standing Committee on Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Bill, as well as Deposit Insurance Premiums Bill.
House Chair, Deputy President, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon members of the National Assembly, members of the public, the committee processed two Bills which are crucial to the running of South Africa’s financial regulatory regime, which the Standing Committee on Finance is reporting to the House today.

These are the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Bill, and the Deposit Insurance Premiums Bill as amended.
We shall refer to the former as the Levies Bill and the other as the Levies Administration Bill or collectively, the Bills.

Both these Bills forms part of the Twin Peak financial regulatory regime, which was initiated following the global financial crisis of 2008.

South Africa is part of the global village and its citizens.

Residents and businesses get impacted upon by significant events taking place in other parts of the world.
The Twin Peaks model of financial regulation is as a comprehensive system for regulating the financial sector representing a radical shift away from fragmented regulation and mitigating the risk of regulatory arbitrate.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 72 The Financial Services Regulatory Authority, FSRA saw the introduction of two main regulatory authorities which are the Prudential Authority, PA within the South African Reserve Bank and the Financial Sector Conduct Authority, FSCA which incorporated the former financial services board.

The PA is responsible for safety and soundness of banks, insurers and financial conglomerates or for systemically important financial institution, SIFI.
The FSCA is responsible for protecting customers or financial firms, ensuring the integrity and efficiency of financial markets and promoting effective consumer education.

The PA and FSCA were both established on the 1 April 2018.

South African Reserve Bank, SARB under the FSRA is responsible for the overall financial stability with a statutory inter Financial Stability Oversight Council, FSOC chaired by the Governor of SARB.
This entails planning for the worst events and ensuring that there a plans in place to manage systematic failures in the financial system.

This includes the introduction of the deposits insurance scheme as a financial safety net.
The Levies Bill is the Money Bill that provides for the imposition of levies on supervised entities in order to fund operations and functioning of the Prudential Authority, here above referred to as PA. UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 73 The FSCA, the Financial Services Tribunal, Ombud Council which are all established in terms of the FSRA.

It will also fund the office of the pension fund adjudicator and the office of the Ombud for financial services providers.
The Administration Bill provides for the refinements to Chapter 16 of the Financial Sector Regulation Act, which deals with fees and the administration of levies to ensure that the chapter is appropriately aligned with the Levies Bill and appropriately provides for the administration of levies.

It also provides for the imposition of deposit insurance premium that will finance the Deposit Insurance Fund.
The premiums will be imposed on the members of the corporation for the Deposit Insurance which are licensed banks, mutual banks, corporative banks and branches of foreign banks which conduct business in South Africa.

In 2021, Parliament enacted the Financial Sectors Amendment Bill which established the corporation for the Deposit Insurance and the Deposit Insurance Fund.

These for the first time will ensure that the depositors are protected in the event of bank failure.
The Levies and Administration Bills are at the final implementation stages of the country’s financial sector regulatory reforms which introduced the so-called Twin Peaks regulatory architecture.

The objectives of the financial UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 74 sector regulations are to ensure a stable inclusive and transform financial sector that is a key driver of economic growth and job creation.
The financial sector plays an important role of providing financial products and services to citizens, thus supporting economic activity.

The efficient and effective regulation and supervision of financial institutions and markets minimises the risk of market failures.

A strong system of financial sector regulation ensures the protection of financial customers.
In order to achieve all of these, an appropriate funding model in line with a Twin Peak system is therefore needed to provide for cost of regulation and capacity enhancement.

The Bills seeks to ensure that there is adequate funding and resourcing of regulations and supervisors.

The Levies Bills were introduced to the National Assembly by the Minister of Finance on 21 January 2022.
The committee was briefed on the Bills by National Treasury on the 9 February 2022, and a call for public comment was issued by Parliament thereafter, and only written submissions were made to the committee.

The Banking Association South Africa, BASA Financial Intermediaries Association of South Africa, FIASA, the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, JSE Masthead, Moonstone, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 75 OUTsurance, South African Insurance Association, and Wealth Tap.
The committee could have benefited more from oral submission by stakeholders.

On 11 May 2022, officials of the National Treasury and affected regulatory bodies responded to the written submissions.

As a result of the submissions, a number of amendments were made to the original Bills.

The National Treasury also reported that before the Bills were tabled in Parliament, it undertook extensive consultation with affected stakeholders, including regulatory agencies and industry.
The submissions received from stakeholders focused on technical and substantive issues.

Some of these issues were accepted by National Treasury leading to technical and substantive amendments detailed in our report.

Most of the substantive policy comments on the Levies Bill focused on what can be referred to as compliance costs, particularly the quantum of levies, possible duplication of the levy and special levy.

The special levy will only be for the first two years of the levy.
It touched only to enable the new regulators to cover their setup costs.

The levy falls away from year three going UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 76 forward.

The Levies Bills further make provision for granting of exemptions from payment of all or part of the levy in the circumstances set out in clause 11 of the Bill, in order to accommodate entities facing financial hardships.
Although these are necessary costs, the committee is concerned that the cost of regulation will be born disproportionately by the customers, particularly the poor and low income earners.

This is why the committee ordered National Treasury to present to it a socio-economic impact study on the Bills before deliberating and adopting them.
The direct cost of regulation under the Twin Peak systems after these Bills are enforced, will amount to R1,6 billion per annum in the first year and R1,3 billion currently, are the costs.

The committee urges for thorough consultation industry whenever these fees and levies are reviewed.

The committee further recommends an independent survey to be conducted to examine the actual pass on costs of these fees and levies to consumers after the special levy has fallen away in the third year.
The estimated impact of these costs on consumers in the first year if passed on, will amount to less than 50% per month.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 77 The National Treasury projected that the total levies will be paid by insurers and banks, account for about 0,3% and 0,2% of their total operating costs respectively.

It further stated that each institution has a percentage of the total profits generated will pay 0,8 and 0,4 respectively.
Finance is the largest industry in South Africa at 24% of GDP followed by personal services at 17%, trade at 14%, manufacturing at 13%, mining government at 9%, transport at 7%.

The cost of doing nothing will be too dire but the benefits of regulation far outweighs its cost when regulators and regulatory supervision act in the public interest.
Lastly, as part of the overarching reforms, the committee still awaits and urges the Minister to prioritise the tabling of the conduct of Financial Institutions Bill, which will among other things consolidate and strengthen market laws, protect customers against weak and harmful market practices, promote financial inclusion and financial sector transformation.

I move for the adoption of the report.

Thank you.

[Applause.]


Mr J N DE VILLIERS: House Chairperson, 14 years ago, in 2008 I was working as a shopping center manager in Stellenbosch.

I was 28 years old at the time and I will [Laughter.]

... it was UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 78 a bit young and it was a bit rough, but I was called into the boardroom by the owner of the mall and he told us – and it was 16 September 2008.

He told us that, last night the world changed.


And he was referring to the fall of the American bank, Lehman Brothers, and he was quite right because the collapse of that bank, started the 2008 financial recession.

So, the full story behind the 2008 recession is complex and intriguing, but the most important key take away from that recession is that American financial institutions got reckless, with cheap loans, exclusively called sub-prime home loans to consumers.
Which basically means by lending people money who couldn’t afford to be lent money.

At that stage, normal people as well as banks and other institutions got into deep trouble.

Because, as inflation rose, people were unable to pay back their loans and that started the crash for the financial recession.
It is worth mentioning, that in this time South African financial institutions were mostly not guilty of these reckless lending standards, but none the less, it became very apparent that regulation in the financial sector remains important to safeguard people against the future potential UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 79 economic recessions that could be brought on by reckless financial institutions and their behaviour.
And so South African adopted as previous speaker referred to as well, the Twin Peaks model, to ensure better financial market regulation and fair and transparent financial markets.

And that House Chairperson, is why we are here today.

To create better financial regulation, it was first necessary to create the regulating bodies responsible in South Africa.
So, these are, the Prudential Authority, the Financial Sector Conduct Authority, the Corporation for Deposit Insurance, the Financial Services Tribunal, the Ombuds Council, the Office of the Pension Funds Adjudicator and the Office of the Ombud for Financial Services Providers, FAIS Ombud.

So, this Bill before us today, seeks to raise the levies issued to fund the operation of these different regulators.
The financial industry is being levied already, so this Bill will not only raise these levies, but they will also include a special levy.

House Chairperson, I think it is important at this stage to note, that the DA does support the regulation of the financial sector and we agree that it is in line with international best UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 80 practice.

Ultimately, it does protect South African consumers and it can encourage healthy economic growth.
House Chair, there are however two principals at play here in this Bill, which we cannot support.

Firstly, as all consumers know, we are already in a time of rising prices and hyperinflation.

These increased levies on financial institutions, no matter what they say will just get worked back into the pockets of normal South Africans and will be ... classed into the financial services that we all use, banks, insurers, pension funds.
So, although the financial services sector is being levied, in practice the consumer is paying for that increase, R1,6 billion of increases.

These costs not only be hurt the pocket of existing banking, insurance and financial services, they directly go to the pockets of consumer.

House Chairperson, it’s a simple concept and principle.
In a time of rising interest rates and alarming inflation, in a country riddled by poverty, inequality and unemployment, a caring government does not raise cost and levies to consumers when they can least afford it.

A caring government does the opposite; it looks toward measures that can help consumers UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 81 survive.
Measures such as slashing the exorbitant 33% taxes on fuel levies and not increasing regulatory levies that get passed on to consumers.

And that is why the DA has called for an urgent Parliament debate to slash fuel prices, which will be heard in this House on the 15th of June.

South Africans simply cannot afford never ending rises in fuel, taxes and levies.

But House Chair, there is a second principle at play in this Bill which we cannot support, and that is the principle of transparency.
During the presentation of this Bill before the Standing Committee of Finance, much time was spent on how important regulation of the financial sector is and the important role and function of these regulators and how it will not hurt the consumer.

We received estimates on the financial impact of these costs on banks, insurers, pension funds and other financial institutions themselves, but take note, not on the actual impact or feasibility of these costs on consumers, who will ultimately pay for them.
So, although we know how much money will approximately be levied from consumers towards the regulators, the one thing that the regulators failed to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 82 explain to the committee was exactly how this money will be spent.

Not a single budget from these regulators was put before the committee or any information that could put light on, what is it that this will actually be used for operational expenses.
So, as Parliament, we have no idea how this increase in revenue, via the raised levies, will be applied, because we have seen the budgets for these entities.

The DA cannot support a Bill that raises levies from the pockets of normal South Africans, to fund increased expenditure of regulators that have not even tried to justify these increases with transparent budgets.
So, House Chairperson, although the DA supports the regulation of the finance sector, it’s the timing and the transparency of this Bill that concerns us.

What we cannot support, is that in a time when government should care enough about South Africans to try and curb the rising costs of living, the government is instead passing Bills that raises the cost of living.

This is a symptom of a government that simply does not care.

The DA cannot and will not support this Bill.

I thank you.
I thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 83 Ms O M C MAOTWE: Thank you very much, House Chair.
The Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Bill, and the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Administration and Deposit Insurance Premiums Bill, are Bills intended to collect levies from the financial sector to finance the operation of the Prudential Authority, the Financial Sector Conduct Authority, the Corporation for Deposit Insurance, and other state entities responsible for overseeing the financial sector.
The two Bills, are products of the Financial Sector Regulation Act passed by the National Assembly in 2017, the Bill known by most in the financial sector as the Twin Peaks Bill.

The EFF rejected the Twin Peaks Bill because it failed to deal with the issue of the National Credit Regulator, and we warned that the legislation is ill-conceived and leaves out a key player in financial services.

In general, the overall financial sector regulation framework leaves out a key sector of financial services.
It is illogical and stupid that we have a National Credit Regulator that is excluded from the financial sector framework, but is at the center of the struggles for millions of our people who are highly indebted.

There was no interest in protecting customers and dealing decisively with reckless UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 84 lending.
We have a loan shark in the form of Capitec that is continuing with reckless landing, chasing high risk for quick returns and an inflated share price.

We also raised the issue of Insolvency Act, to address the process of sequestration and how people are declared insolvent, to be investigated much more properly.

Workers are abused by court processes that favour those with money to be sequestrated and sometimes declared insolvent without their knowledge.
But there is another problem that we, as the EFF warned, that the Financial Sector Regulation Act is going to fail to deal with, that’s financial crimes.

We know that people are stashing millions of dollars under mattresses as part of money laundering schemes.

What is the point of regulating the financial sector, if the financial sector is colluding with the people involved in illicit financial flows and there is no law to deal with this decisively?
How can one person keep four to eight million US dollars under a mattress and sofa, as the President did in his Phala Phala Farm, while claiming to have safe and sound financial stability?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 85 What is shocking is the fact that, the President is not even ashamed to admit that he is keeping US dollar bills under his mattress.

The President is sleeping on top of millions of US dollar under his mattress, yet, he cannot pay workers.
We are not going to tolerate a constitutional delinquent who hides behind multiple personalities, while pretending to be Mr Clean, protected by captured financial sector regulatory bodies.

The bills before the House today have nothing to do with workers, consumers of financial products, or saving money from the fiscus.

These are deals between regulatory agencies that have been taken over and the financial sector, which is still owned and run by the white capitalist establishment.
Banks and other financial sector role players are expected to pay levies so that there is money to pay the salaries of workers in these regulatory bodies.

This compromises the independence of an already compromised and captured regulatory framework.

The most appropriate manner of handling this, would have been to charge them levies, to the fiscus and allow Parliament to pass an appropriation on an annual basis to all financial sector regulatory bodies.

The EFF rejects the Levies Bills.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 86 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member.

I am tempted to make the request that, we should refrain from lowering the gravity of our presentations by using language that might create tensions, words such as stupid and others, while the presentation is very good, and so on.

So, it’s just a humble plea.

IsiZulu: Ngizocela umhlonishwa uNdabezitha u-E M Buthelezi.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Chief Whip of the IFP?

Mr N SINGH: It seems that hon Buthelezi is having a problem with his connection.

May I proceed with his remarks.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): You can.

Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, at the outset I wish to thank the Standing Committee on Finance for scrutinising the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Bill and the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Admin Bill, as tabled.
We also express our gratitude for the oral submissions made and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 87 clause-by-clause definitions, as outlined by role-players in the financial sector.

Hon Chairperson, the main objectives of the financial sector regulations are to ensure a stable, inclusive, and transformed financial sector that is a key driver of economic growth and job creation.
The financial sector plays an important role of providing financial products and services to citizens.

We fully support any legislation that will increase economic activity while protecting consumers, depositors and all players within the insurance and financial sectors.
However, it must be noted by this House, that while South Africa is not short of any comprehensive financial sector regulations and legislation, it is the people and key role- players in the sector that seek to circumvent the legislation for their own gain.

We have many great pieces of legislation, but not many great people who are entrusted to enforce the laws and regulations as pertains to the financial sector.
It is imperative, therefore, that we clamp down on corruption and cover any, and all loopholes that may exist within the system, so as to prevent any forms of exploitation.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 88 The IFP further notes that these Bills are part of a suite of measures aimed at financial sector reforms, which were necessitated by the global financial sector reforms, following the global financial crisis of 2008.
Therefore, the IFP supports the Reports by the Standing Committee on Finance and the Bills, having considered the Insurance Levies Bill, with its recommendations and findings as well as those pertaining to the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Admin Bill.

I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair.

House Chair the ACDP would also to thank the members of the portfolio committee for the incredible hard work on these two very complex pieces of legislation.
As we know, the financial sector is the key driver of economic growth and job creation in the country, it plays an important role of providing financial products and services to the citizens, and that supports economic growth.

The efficient and effective regulation, supervision of financial institution and markets, minimises the risks of market failures, as we have seen in the 2008 global financial crisis referred to by previous speakers.
The ACDP shares the view that, the strong system of financial sector regulation will ensure the protection of financial UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 89 customers, given, as the other speakers have indicated, that finance is the largest industry in South Africa, 24% of Gross Domestic Product, GDP.
Now, the ACDP also notes that, during the public hearing, the stakeholders were deeply concerned about the compliant costs, and I think that, this is at the heart of the problem, how to balance the benefit to the consumers, with the increased compliant costs?

The stakeholders also indicated that the Bills would create barriers for new players due to low penetration in the market and limit competition, and again, these all lead to inflation costs.
So, we have listened very carefully to the debates of the previous speakers, and the concerns, of course, as indicated in the committee’s reports that, firstly, must be obtained at socioeconomic impact studied on the Levies Bill.

They thought that it is necessary that, an independent survey be conducted, to examine the actual prise and costs of the levies to consumers, after risk more time after they have been collected.
So, clearly, that figure was R300 million we have spoken about, at present is R1,3 billion increasing to R1,6 billion, the concern in the powers on cost shared by all members of the committee and how will that be established, given the fact UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 90 that they would have already gotten the increase in fuel levies, we’ve got an increase in interest rates and we got an increase in inflation.
Also, I think, what tipped the balance for the ACDP, was the fact of transparency.

As mentioned by previous speakers that, at this stage, we do not know what the regulator actually requires, and how the regulator will spend these funds?

If we had a proper budget from the regulator and to justify those expenditure, maybe we would have been keen to support these Bills.

But we want to emphasise that we support the regulation and the supporting of consumers.
But until we know specifically, how these funds will be spent by the regulator, we are, unfortunately, unable to support these Bills.

I thank you.

IsiNdebele: Nom G J SKOSANA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo ohloniphekileko, maLunga ohloniphekileko nesizwe sakwethu, lotjhani.
English: The importance of the Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Bills, whilst raising financials to operate regulatory institutions in the financial sector has more to do with the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 91 ongoing correction of economic activities within the financial sector.

We were not surprised when in 2008 following the worst forms of insider trading, banks in the United States began to collapse.
Triggered by a conscious manipulation of the prime lending rate in housing bond market, especially amongst the working class.

Black and lower income workers selling bonds that the traders knew full well that the working class could not afford.

This led to a global economic crisis last witnessed in 1929.

That resulted in millions of job losses globally.

In South Africa, approximately 1,4 million jobs being lost as a result.
That demonstrated once again that a poorly regulated financial sector is a huge danger to any economy and the potential of a poorly regulated financial sector can easily lead to massive job losses, a negative impact upon growth and greater instability in society.

The South African economy has been financialised like most global economies.
Most component parts of our economy are integrated with a financial sector and the financial sector in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 92 turn has a dominating influence on the character and shape of the economy.
IsiNdebele: Sihlalo ohloniphekileko ... English: ... the modus operandi of the financial sector, which has the ability to extract high-levels of accumulation, shift money in and out of the country rapidly and extract levies on the banks and regulating the financial sector is critical on the state.

The state has to ensure that the financial sector adds value to the economy and does not create extortions in the economy, economic bubbles and other practices that are serving rank seeking behaviour.
The year 2008 found South Africa relatively better insulated than other countries.

Thanks to the regulatory environment that had been introduced by the National Treasury.

However, what it did like in many countries was to trigger greater regulatory interventions in the financial sector to the credit of the National Treasury.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 93 The Financial Sector Regulation Bill introduced in Parliament in 2015 was enacted in 2017.
It was followed by the enactment of the Insurance Act of 2017, the Financial Sector Regulation Act of 2017 headlined the regulatory reforms and introducing a new model of financial regulations.

This model of financial regulation is a comprehensive system for regulating the financial sector and dealing with practices where goods or assets are bought from one market in another because the rate of return derived is higher.
Parliament has been central to this process and the Committee on Finance, over the years has played an important role in shaping legislation.

IsiNdebele: Malunga ahloniphekileko ... English: ... what the financial sector regulator did was to introduce two main regulatory authorities which are the Prudential Authority within the SA Reserve Bank and the Financial Sector Conduct Authority, FSCA.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 94 The Prudential Authority is responsible for the safety and soundness of banks, insurers and financial conglomerates and the Financial Sector Conduct Authority, is responsible for protecting customers from financial firms trying to ensure some levels of integrity within the system of accumulation as well as efficiency of financial markets and promoting effective consumer education.
Last year, we passed the Financial Sector Laws Amendment Bill which established the Corporation for Deposit Insurance and Deposit Insurance Fund.

Importantly, this for the first time, seek to ensure that depositors are protected in the event of a bank failure.

This we have seen in recent times where the Prudential Authority of the Reserve Bank has had to intervene.
IsiNdebele: Sihlalo ohloniphekileko ... English: ... in order to financially sustain this work an appropriate funding model is needed to provide for the cost of regulation.

The Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Bills seek UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 95 to ensure that there is adequate funding and resources of regulators and supervisors.
The financial sector requires regulatory resources proportional to its centrality as a result of the dependence of the entire economy on the sector as well as its size in relation to the economy.

Now the sixth regulatory authorities currently cost about R1,6 billion to run.

The National Treasury through these Bills seek to raise further R2,90 million taking the actual costs to R1,6 billion per annum.
Now, the ANC’s approach was firstly to state that the responsibility to cover the extra R290 million must lie within the financial sector itself.

Since it is the very practices of the financial sector that require oversight and regulations.

Secondly, we argued that the principle of cross subsidisation must apply.

This principle is applicable in other parts of our economy and underpins the redistributive nature of any democratic society.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 96 Thirdly, we wanted to know: What does this means for the banks?

You and I are we going to be called upon to carry a disproportionate amount of the extra financial burden?

IsiNdebele: MaLunga ahloniphekileko ... English: ... we insisted that a socioeconomic impact assessment be brought to the committee to determine where the responsibility to finance the Bills lay.
That study showed that the cost to the banked will be less than 50 cents per month.

I think hon members from the DA are listening.

The cost for the banked will be less than 50 cents per month.

So, we believed that for the banked, this is affordable.
Now, notwithstanding that, we recommended that an independent survey be conducted to examine the actual pass on cost of the levies to consumers after a reasonable period of time after UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 97 they have been collected.

Oversight over the regulatory environment is also critical.

So, for the six major banks, they will need to pay about R45 million per annum on a sliding scale for smaller banks down to R53 000 per annum.
Same sliding scale for bigger insurance companies who on average will pay about R15 million per annum, down to the small entrance at about R50 000 per annum.

Hon House Chairperson, we welcome the fact that there are exemptions for those parts of the financial sector who can list afford it.

That your corporative banks will only pay on a sliding scale from R5 million per annum downwards.

Your village banks and other forms of banking are exempted.
So, it is on those bases that as the ANC we support both Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies Bills.

We understand why the DA will not support them.

It is on the basis that these levies are aimed at assisting institutions like the Prudential Authority and the FSCA that are institutions that service the poorest of the poor and the most vulnerable.

Those are not part of the constituency of the DA.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 98 So, if the aim of this Bill was to service big companies, the DA was going to support it, but because it services institutions that are in the main are servicing the poorest of the poor obviously the DA will not support it.

Well I am disappointed with the EFF.

For they always cry the loudest when they speak about the need to transform the financial sector and to regulate it.
However, here they are today rejecting these Bills.

However, we know them, that is how they are.

They are always having some pie in the sky ideas anywhere in the world.

[Interjections.]

Ms O M C MAOTWE: [Oa rasa man!]

You are making noise man!

Just speak properly!

Mr G J SKOSANA: That is how they are.

Mr A H M PAPO: Shut up, you!

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Shut up!

Shut up!


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 99 Mr G J SKOSANA: As the ANC we support these Financial Sector and Deposit Insurance Levies (Administrative and Deposit Insurance Premiums Bill.

IsiNdebele: Ngiyathokoza.

[Iwahlo.]

Mr A H M PAPO: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): What is the point of order, hon member?
Mr A H M PAPO: My point of order is: Hon member, Maotwe just called on the hon member Mahlangu to shut up!

Is that parliamentary.

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Hon House Chairperson, I was responding to him.

He said I must shut up first!

You must listen you Papo.

Open your ears and listen!

Ms H O MKHALIPI: “Ja!” Do not be bias you Papo, do not be bias!

That is why taking old people to Parliament is a problem!

Do not be bias!
Do not be bias!

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 100 He said before to treasure general, TG!

And then you stood up there and defending your own person!

We are also going to defend our people!

IsiZulu: An HON FEMALE MEMBER: Futhi uma kunguwe wena Mkhalipi.

Hay cha!

Nkz H O MKHALIPI: Hayi thula kwawena!

English: Shut up!

We are not going to allow this bully here!

An HON FEMALE MEMBER: Hon Mkhalipi, you are out of order!
IsiZulu: Nkz H O MKHALIPI: Hawu kahle wena Violet.

Negama lezalukazi!

Ms O M C MAOTWE: Yesus!

English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, that was totally uncalled for.

Members have a right to raise points UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 101 of orders and have a right to object to whatever, but slinging like that, I do not think is acceptable.

Let us refrain from using words such as shut up and all that.

It is unparliamentary.


And just shouting at the top of your voices in a manner in which some members do is terribly wrong.

It is totally unacceptable.

IsiZulu: Kahleni bakithi.

English: I did not want to usher in the Minister of Finance like that.

The hon Minister.

Setswana: Ms O M C MAOTWE: Kuba Papo.

Mokube rea gokupa.

Reyabereka.

English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Maotwe, please.

Hon the Minister of Finance.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chairperson, I want to say three things.

The first one in the management of public UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 102 finances, there are trade-offs and policy choices.

The unfortunate part is that our colleagues on my left this side are in a comfortable position because they do not have to make these policy choices and trade-offs.
Let me just use it as an example – even if you have to choose between a levy to finance these institutions, if it is not a levy, I will have to tax somebody in order to finance that.

There is no two ways about it.

Those are the policy choice I have to make.

If tomorrow we use a fuel levy, I have made my intentions that if you ask me I love the fuel levy, I do not.

If you ask me: Do you have an intention to phase it out?

Yes!

However, can I do it at the stroke of a pen?

No!

Why?
No!

Why?

The fuel levy as we speak, generate about R89 billion per annum.

If I were to remove it immediately, I will have to find a new tax to replace it or cut services and in most circumstances those services that are going to be cut are likely to affect the poor of the poorest.

These are policy choices you make when you are in government.

Unfortunately, our colleagues on the left do not have to make those policy choices every day.
Those policy choices have to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 103 be made every day.

That is what then has to do with the responsibility of governing, is to make those policy choices.

I also made my intention that as part of moving forward even the Road Accident Fund has to be moved out of the fuel levy and of the fuel price.

However, that needs a process.


The second point I want to make as the relative aspect of it but there is an oversight possibility that every registered institution is going to do.

Lastly, I must thank the committee for the job well done.

Thank you.

Debate concluded.

FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES BILL (First Reading debate) Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 104 FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES BILL ADMINISTRATION AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE PREMIUMS BILL (Second Reading debate) (Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

FIFTH ORDER FINANCIAL SECTOR AND DEPOSIT INSURANCE LEVIES BILL (Second Reading debate) There was no debate.

Bill read a second time.

(Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES ON REMOVAL FROM OFFICE OF MS JF VAN SCHALKWYK, CHIEF MAGISTRATE AT KEMPTON PARK, IN TERMS OF SECTION 13(4) OF THE MAGISTRATES ACT, 1993 UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 105 Mr G MAGWANISHE: Hon House Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers and hon members, Ms Van Schalkwyk holds the position of the Chief Magistrate at Kempton Park.
She was provisionally suspended from office in 2013 on charges of misconduct pending the outcome of the investigation into here fitness to hold office.

Although the formal inquiry began in 2014, the process was delayed by several postponements and changes to counsel.

In 2015, Ms Van Schalkwyk applied for an order concerning the validity of regulations for judiciary process in the lower courts and a code of conduct for magistrates but was unsuccessful.

Also, leave to appeal was refused.


In 2018, the Parliament confirmed the Minister’s determination as recommended by the Magistrate Commission to withhold her remuneration.

The inquiry was eventually held in September 2020 and Ms Schalkwyk was found guilty.

The commission requested her removal from office on 27 July 2021.

The Minister confirmed the recommendation.

The committee was briefed on the matter on 26 August 2021.
At the meeting, the committee heard that Ms Schalkwyk had applied to court to have the commission’s decision to recommend her removal from office to be set aside.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 106 The committee requested the legal opinion and was advised that there was no legal reason preventing Parliament from proceeding with the matter.

On 31 May 2022, the committee was briefed by the commission and also considered the contents of Ms Schalkwyk’s correspondence.
The committee is of the view that there is no justifiable basis in law for it to postpone its deliberations.

Furthermore, Ms Schalkwyk holds a senior position within the magistrate and the suspension prevents the position to be filled on a permanent basis to the detriment of the administration of justice.
The committee having considered the report from the Magistrate Commission, the Minister’s suspension and the removal of Ms Schalkwyk from office of magistrate, reports that it concurs with the suspension and recommends that the NA resolves not to restore Ms Schalkwyk to office.

I so move.

Thank you, Hoiuse Chairperson.

Declarations of Vote: Mr W HORN: House Chair, the administration of justice system in our country is under severe pressure.
It is under this type of pressure that it is not good for health of either for the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 107 judiciary or health of our constitutional democracy.

One element of this pressure turns on the fact that the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is clearly not a state operational declining and inefficiencies that typifies the governance by the ANC.
Another element of this pressure is brought about by the way in which the rule of law is undermined in or country and criminality which is not investigated and prosecuted properly.
It also suggests importantly to this report to a failure to act with integrity on the part of holders of the public office and even an attitude to some of the public officers that the law does not apply equally to everyone as determined by our Constitution, from the President of the country right down to the poorest and the marginalised.

While the manner in which we as the national legislatures discharge our duties and functions in terms of the guidelines of the Constitution is often criticised.
Today is a good opportunity to embrace our obligations to uphold the Constitution and the rule of law.

This report is a product of a Portfolio Committee on Justice’s oversight followed by the decisions reached by the Magistrate Commission and the Minister in response to the allegations of impropriety and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 108 misconduct on the part of a senior magistrate of the Chief Magistrate of Kempton Park.
In this regard, it must firstly be repeated that it remains a concern that the disciplinary measures involving members of the judiciary are often not finalised with anything that resembles speed or rapidly.

The failure to deal efficiently with matters of discipline invariably undermines the trust and confidence of the public in the judiciary as the institution.

The fact that charges faced by Ms Schalkwyk stands from an event that took place prior to 2013 already can never be deemed as good enough.
Well, any magistrate who stands to lose office, of course must enjoy all the rights and privileges in her hand to a fair process.

The reality of this is that ordinary people might view this as proof that holders of public office are treated more carefully than them when it comes to workplace misconduct.
Having said this, in the current magistrate it is quite clear that the delaying finalisation of this matter was primarily caused by the judge magistrate and not by the Magistrate Commission nor the Minister.
Our decision today must be informed by the firm UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 109 view that in order for our Constitutional Democracy and our country’s rule of law to withstand the pressure put under, we have no choice but to demand the highest level of integrity, honesty and probity from members of the judiciary.

In respect of the charges from which Ms Schalkwyk was found guilty, were satisfied that the removal from office is justified.
No reasons could be found to restore Ms Schalkwyk to office.

The portfolio committee, as the Chair of the committee did indicate that the delaying of the final decision on this matter given that the Ms Schalkwyk is subjecting the process and decision by the commission and the Minister to Judiciary Review.
However, we agree that in the interest of justice, specifically in the administration of justice to finalise this decision as the administration of justice will never be optimal in the situation where only an Acting Chief Magistrate is in place for years on end.

Given that Magistrate Schalkwyk has been suspended from the office without the remuneration some years ago, our finalisation of this matter, only information available to us at this stage, cannot be prejudicial to anyone.
We support the report and the recommendation not restore to office.

Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 110 Ms Y N YAKO: Hon House Chairperson, it is now almost 10 years since the initial complaints of the Magistrate Van Schalkwyk reneged.

It is sad indictment that it has taken its institution’s task with holding the judiciary’s office such as the magistrate this long to bring the matter to finality.
The integrity of the judiciary is placed under serious strain by delays such as this matter.

The country should find ways of expediting complaints against the judiciary officers to enable our courts, particularly lower courts to function without having these dark clouds hovering over their heads.

We must also condemn the delaying tactics employed by Ms Schalkwyk throughout this ordeal.

Her conduct has tainted the image of judiciary and is offensive to the code of conduct of judiciary officers.
Ms Schalkwyk was accused of many despicable offences.

We listened to the abuse of her power as the Chief Magistrate and these included attending to her personal business during working hours, borrowing money from the subordinates, gambling during working hours and asking a magistrate to drive her to a casino at 10 o’clock in the morning.

We must also understand that the nature of her offences point to a psychological problem she might have with gambling.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 111 Magistrates had to work under extremely difficult conditions and the Department of Justice and Constitutional Department and the Magistrate Commission must have a mental health assistance readily available to magistrates.

It must also not be easy to dismiss people without having made available of all kinds of main assistance to them.

This is particularly when the kind of their work may have easily contributed to their conduct.
This however does not take away the responsibility for magistrates to conduct themselves in a manner befitting of the esteemed office they occupy in the justice system.

So, therefore, as the EFF we are in support of the committee’s decision to approve the removal of this magistrate from the office.

Thank you.

Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much hon Chairperson, once again somebody who was supposed to be on virtual is not there.
Hon Chair, it is critical that judicial officers, as custodians of justice and the rule of law are held to the highest standard of ethics.

The public needs to have faith that our courts are led by people with integrity, and with the competence that an officer of the court will always conduct themselves in an ethical manner.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 112 On consideration of the report, the IFP from the outset wishes to raise its concern that, this matter has been prolonged for many years due to various legal challenges raised by Ms Van Schalkwyk.

The Magistrates Commission apparently charged Ms Van Schalkwyk with various counts of misconduct in May 2013 already, pending an investigation into her fitness to hold office in terms of the Magistrates Act of 1993.
However, it is clear from the report that it is a submission of the portfolio committee that due process had been followed in the misconduct proceedings, and that both Ms Van Schalkwyk and the commission have been given the opportunity to submit evidence before a presiding officer in September 2020.
It is our understanding that the presiding officer found Ms Van Schalkwyk guilty on 13 of the 22 remaining counts of misconduct against her, and accordingly recommended that she be removed from office in terms of section 13 of the Magistrates Act of 1993.

This was confirmed by the Minister.


However, the IFP understands that the portfolio committee has in accordance with the legal opinion on the matter, determined that there is no legal basis preventing the committee from deliberating on the matter, despite the pending review application of the commission’s decision.
Therefore, the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 113 committee on 31 May 2022, determined the suspension or Ms Van Schalkwyk prevented a critical senior position in the magistrates from being filled.

This is only to the detriment of justice.

The portfolio committee subsequently recommended that National Assembly resolve not to restore Ms Van Schalkwyk to office.
In conclusion, the IFP wishes to stress the importance of acting swiftly on complaints of misconduct by judicial officers, as the legitimacy of our courts rests on the shoulders of these officers.

The IFP accepts the report.

Thank you.

Mr F J MULDER: Hon House Chair, accountability is a foundational value of our democracy, which is applicable to all including the judiciary.
Judicial independence serves as a safeguard for the rights and privileges provided by a limited Constitution, and prevents executive and legislative encroachment above those rights.

Judicial accountability is a set of mechanisms aimed at making magistrates and courts, personally or institutionally responsible for behaviours and decisions contrary to the constitutional or legal standards.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 114 The FF Plus is in this instance in favour of the suspension and removal of Ms J F Van Schalkwyk from the Office of the Magistrate in terms of section 13 of the Magistrates Act of 1993.

Thank you, Chair Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP at the outset would like to thank all members of the judiciary, who tirelessly dispense justice on a day to day basis.
They are under tremendous pressure, given the high levels of crime and backlogs that they are faced with in the courts.

However, members of judiciary must be held to the highest level of propriety of integrity, given that they dispense justice and citizens correctly look up to them for that justice.

It is highly regrettable that this matter dealing with a chief magistrate has taken so long emanating from events from 2013- 14.

The ACDP understands that this is no fault of the commission or the Minister.
Chairperson I served on the Magistrates Commission for many years and I understand the lame tactics which the commission as referred to in its report as well.

Everyone is entitled to litigate and go to court, and this is what we have seen here.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 115 Chairperson, the ACDP has considered this report in the Portfolio Committee on Justice.
We support the report and recommendation not to restore the Magistrate Van Schalkwyk to office, given the fact that we’re dealing with a chief magistrate here, and as someone else that had to perform this task to the detriment of justice for the citizens.

I thank you.

Ms N H MASEKO-JELE: House Chair, members of the House, fellow South Africans, the ANC supports report on the removal from office of Ms J. F Van Schalkwyk.
Strong perceptions of corruption and misconduct undermine the reputation of the magistracy.

Numerous pieces of law emphasize that judicial officers must always be above reproach.

The overall constitutional standard for the appointment of judicial officers is that they must be fit and proper.

This is in addition to the requirement that they must be suitable and qualified.

A fit and proper judicial officer must embody judicial integrity.
The standards of judicial integrity are articulated in the norms and standards for the performance of judicial functions.

The Code of Judicial Conduct for Magistrates in terms of section 16(1) of the Magistrates Act of 1993, the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 116 Code of Judicial Conduct adopted in terms of section 12 of the Judicial Services Commission Act of 1994 and numerous other standards at international level such as the Bangalore Principles of Judicial Conduct.
Inter alia, these standards include that a judicial officer must always and not only in the discharge of official duties, act honourably and in a manner befitting the judicial offices.

There are clear standards on judicial officers.

Officers need to avoid conflict between their private interests and that of their judicial office.

There is also an obligation on judicial officers to uphold the dignity, reputation and esteem of the judiciary.
Ms Van Schalkwyk, a Chief Magistrate at Kempton Park, Johannesburg was charged with 18 counts of misconduct.

The Magistrate Commission agreed to provisionally suspend, Ms Van Schalkwyk pending an investigation into her fitness to hold office, as contemplated in terms of section 13(3)(a) of Magistrate Act 90 of 1993.

The Minister provisionally suspended her from office on 04 June 2013, and Parliament confirmed Ms Van Schalkwyk’s provisional suspension from office in November 2013.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 117 On 18 September 2013, the commission appointed a presiding officer and person to lead the evidence at the hearing, informing Ms Van Schalkwyk in writing.
The misconduct inquiry was postponed several times at the request of the defence, and to allow the defence and opportunity to file an application at the High Courts, challenging the validity of the regulations for judicial officers and the Code of Conduct for Magistrates, and for the state to oppose the application.

The misconduct inquiry against Ms Van Schalkwyk was kept in abeyance pending the finalization of the application.

The application was ahead on 15 March 2017, and a judgment was reserved.
On 01 August 2017, the High Court delivered its judgment and dismissed the application with costs.

The applicant filed a notice of application for leave to appeal on 29 August 2017.

Having had both parties on 08 November 2017, the High Court dismissed the application with costs on 10 November 2017.
The commission was on the view that Ms Van Schalkwyk deliberately delaying the disciplinary process against her, and determined to withhold Ms Van Schalkwyk’s remuneration in terms of section 13(4)(A) Act with immediate effect, pending the conclusion of the disciplinary inquiry against her, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 118 Subsequently, having considered the Minister’s report on the matter, Parliament resolves to confirm the determination to withhold Ms Van Schalkwyk’s remuneration.
Despite numerous challenges encountered during the misconduct proceedings, evidence was eventually led and both parties were given the opportunity to submit their respective heads of argument on the merits, and orally amplify them before the presiding officer, on 17 and 18 September 2020.

Ms Van Schalkwyk elected not to testify at the inquiry.

The presiding officer postponed the inquiry to 01 and 02 October 2020 for judgment and imposing of a sanction.
The presiding officer delivered his judgment and found Ms Van Schalkwyk guilty on 13 of 22 remaining counts of misconduct preferred against her.

In line with the audi alteram partem rule of natural justice, both parties were given an opportunity to present any aggravating or mitigating factors to him on the imposing of appropriate sanction.

The presiding officer recommended that Ms Van Schalkwyk be removed from office as contemplated in Section 13 of the Magistrate Act of 1993.
Having considered all the relevant documentation, the commission reserved to recommend that Ms Van Schalkwyk be removed from office on the grounds of misconduct.

On 27 July UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2022 Page: 119 2021, the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services confirmed the removal from office.
Ms Van Schalkwyk holds a senior position within the magistracy, and the suspension prevents the position from being filled on a permanent basis to the detriment of the administration of justice.

Justice delayed is justice denied.

The people of South Africa deserve speedy delivery of justice.

Therefore, the ANC supports the report.

I thank you, Chair Question put: That the Report of the Committee be adopted and the removal from office of Ms J F van Schalkwyk be confirmed.

Question agreed to.
Question agreed to.

Report adopted and removal from office of Ms J F van Schalkwyk accordingly confirmed.

The House adjourned at 18:24.