Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698930656725.pdf (South Africa)
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 1 WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ The House met at 15:00.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we request you to keep your masks on and to sit at your designated area.

Thank you very much.

Okay, let me go through this.


The only item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the Ministers in Cluster 3, which is Governance.

There are four supplementary questions on each question, and parties have given an indication of which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question on.

Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose, and this was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform.
The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officer.

In allocation opportunities for questions, the principle of fairness, amongst UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 2 others, has been applied.

If a member who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member.
When all supplementary questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper.

Members asking supplementary questions or raising points of order may remain seated when doing so.

The first question has been asked by the hon D R Direko to the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.

Just a quick qualifier, we are requesting you when you are in the House to remain seated.
All it means really is that both seated in the House and on virtual platform should await being recognised before talking.

That is essentially what it means, really.

That means ... IsiZulu: ... siyalawuleka la eNdlini.

English: I have been informed that the Minister will be answering questions through the virtual platform.

Hon Minister?
Hon Minister?

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 3 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY GOVERNANCE Cluster 3 Question 148: The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Good afternoon Deputy Speaker and all the hon members.

The answer to the first question is that, first of all, there was only one municipality that was under section 139(7).
And what we have done to assist those municipalities that had unfunded budgets – as you know that the budget issues are really under Treasury.

So, National Treasury and provincial treasury deal with this matter, but we also participate to align with the integrated development plans.
Then, an assessment was done, municipality by municipality, and they were assisted to redo their budgets and make sure that in their redone budgets, they also include how they are going to pay the arrears to us from to the water boards, to pension funds, and so on.

This process was done and in February it was then completed.

Of course there has to be a council resolution that shows that they are willing to stick to the proper budgeting process.
So, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 4 the equitable share was only withheld in December after all this was done.

And then in February, some of the municipalities whose budgets had been corrected, their equitable share was restored.

The Treasury, both national and provincial will also monitor that everything is going well.

But, we are also having plans to establish a rapid response teams that would go to the municipalities to assist them.
The municipal infrastructure grant which builds municipalities were not able to be utilise and the money was being returned.

We have now, working with Treasury, agreed that those municipalities that are not able to spend the funds halfway through, we will reallocate the funds to the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa.

The Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent will work with the municipality to implement the projects that they want implemented.
In some of the municipalities, like in the ones that are under section 139(7), we have sent a planner and an engineer.

Treasury has sent an administrator and we are working together with the municipalities to assist them.

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister.

The first supplementary question is asked by the hon Direko.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 5 Ms D R DIREKO: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Minister, we really appreciate your response which gave more information on what we needed.

However, we understand that budget is the responsibility of the municipal council, but in some of our municipalities, we are failing to stick to proper budgeting processes hence they are still adopting unfunded budgets.
So, I would like to check with you if there is any formal co- ordinated programme between the national Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Treasury to assist such municipalities in this regard, by adopting the budget that is funded.

Where the budget is not funded, is there any plans in place to assist these municipalities to ensure that they stick to what they have instead of budgeting for what they don’t have.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Direko.

First of all, let me say that following all these processes, we as Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs are going to be engaging these municipalities.

We will send the hon Direko the schedule of the municipalities that the departmental officials would be visiting to assist them so that in the next budget cycle, they are able to budget better.
The visits start on 22nd, and we are going to be visiting 43 municipalities.

We UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 6 hope that these visits will assist so that in the next cycle the budgeting will be better.

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister.

The next supplementary question is asked by the hon C Brink.

Mr C BRINK: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


In reference to municipalities in distress, one of the big problem is often that there is lack of clarity on what administrators are permitted to do in relation to the council, to the mayor and to the municipal manager.

It’s been almost a decade since a draft intergovernmental Support, Monitoring and Intervention Bill was first prepared.
Minister, when can we expect government to bring a Bill of this nature to Parliament so that there can be clarity on what administration actually means?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker and the hon Brink.

The Bill is almost ready.

We have to take it to Cabinet, but before we take it to Cabinet it has to be certified by the state law advisers and then also to get the social impact report.

So, that is what we are doing now.


As UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 7 soon as we get those reports it will go to Cabinet, then from there - you know the process, hon Brink.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister.

The third supplementary question is asked by the hon Majozi.

Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.

Please allow me to keep my video off.

My network is very bad.

It keeps on logging me off.

[Interjections.]


Hon Minister, the President of the Republic during his Sona debate response emphasised the statement by the hon M M Hlengwa saying that since all development is local, municipalities should be empowered through increased budget allocation to meet the demands of development.

I appreciate your response; it gives a clear picture of how far you have gone.
But what I would like to know is what other measures has government implemented since then to enact the above statement by the President as water delivery, sanitation and treatment remain a problem throughout the country.

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Majozi.

It is true that water is a problem in the country.

We are working closely with the Minister of Water and Sanitation.
The Minister of Water UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 8 and Sanitation has gone round almost the entire country, looking at the problems and he is putting together a plan, working together with the district municipalities to assist them.

I know, for instance, we were just discussing about a week and a half ago with him on the issues of Jozini where there is a dam but people don’t have water.
We discussed the plan, and the plan was that, amongst other things, he is going to get the water board to assist the district municipalities to make sure that water is reticulated properly to communities.

So, yes, he is making those plans district by district.

There is work that is being done.

It is not the only district, there is also Modimolle.

There are a number of them that he has put plans into, and he is continuing to put plans in place to ensure that this water issue is solved.
And where there is no source of water, we are also working together- sometimes using Misa as well in the meantime to dig boreholes that can supply the water.

So, a lot of work has been done.

But as I say, we are working with the authorities that are there for water, like water and sanitation in districts.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister.

The next supplementary question is asked by the hon Groenewald.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 9 Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

It is happening more and more that municipalities do not comply with legislation and as a result service delivery is neglected or there is no service delivery at all.

But it is the core function of municipalities, yet in terms of the code of conduct for councillors, no councillor may vote against the existing legislation.
By proving an unfunded budget, it is in controversial with the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA.

National Treasury funded unfunded budget and it is such a material contravention of legislation and they are withholding equitable share payments.

Do the Minister know of any competent management that the ANC as the ruling party implemented against its councillors that approved such unfunded budgets?

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you, I thought I was here as the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, and not as ANC’s disciplinary committee.

But let me say to the hon Groenewald that we do talk to the political parties because indeed a lot of problems has to do with the behaviour of the councillors and councils.
We talk to them, and as you know, we also have a legislation now that says that if a councillor is found to have acted wrongly, they cannot be re-elected within UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 10 two years of that incident.

So, yes, we are doing something to actually do what the hon Groenewald is saying about consequence management.

We also talk to the ANC and also other parties.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Question 145: The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Shaik Emam ...

I think your question ... just give me one moment I have mixed up the questions here.

Just one moment here, Chair.

The question of hon Emam is about whether we will ensure that local government structures establish comprehensive central database in terms of tenders issue and contracts and names of people?
We will not do that because Treasury already has that kind of database in their e-portal.

Municipalities are required to publish the tenders and contracts on their own websites and on notice boards.

They are also required to create list of names of companies to whom they have awarded the tenders.

However, the tenders and the awarding of tenders is dealt with by Treasury not us, that is why the e-portal for that is administered by Treasury.

Thank you.
Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 11 Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Minister, what prompts me to ask this question – and I do understand that it is administered by Treasury – but I also think it falls to the co-operative governance for the purposes of good governance.

Now, we know what is happening at the local government level.
There is a lot of lobbying going on between political parties, monies are changing hands and tenders are being given where private sector is funding the political parties.

There is a whole lot going on where we are not getting value for money.

So, what I am asking - and this is not being available and it is not being published – is that local government, all spheres of government wherever there is procurement, let us be transparent.
Let us let the public in those areas of advertising know what is going on and what you pay for per item.

So, you know for the purpose of examination you have to pay R9,99 or R999,00.

You know, it is estimated that we lose hundreds of billions of rands in this country.

Thank you, Minister.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much.
We will indeed discuss again with our Treasury colleagues because I was under the impression that their e-portal does work and does have this UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 12 database.

However, if there is a problem I will talk to my colleague so that it becomes available.

I do agree that we need to be transparent about it.
In some countries, you just go into a municipality and on the notice board you can see everything, you even see projects that are still ongoing; see how far they are, how much they are costing and who is doing them.

I think we must also go towards that kind of a situation where we really are transparent.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister.

Hon members, I will not give you unsolicited advice about the quality of your notifications, please, switch them off.

My ear is very musical.


I love music but yours is not quite, if I may say so.

Just switch it off, please.

[Laughter.]

Mr G G MPUMZA: Thank you, hon Speaker.

May you allow me to keep my video off.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead and call me Deputy Speaker.

Mr G G MPUMZA: Oh!

Deputy Speaker.

Sorry, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Sir.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 13 Mr G G MPUMZA: Hon Minister, municipalities are required to publish supply chain management contracts on their websites in line with section 75 of the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA.
Additional to that they are required to publish the description of goods and services and infrastructure projects as well as bids and the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, B-BBEEs, status level of all contribution of the bidders.

With reference to the response given to question number 363 of 30 November 2021, has the hon Minister taken steps to ensure that in the interest of transparency all the relevant procurement information is published by all municipalities including on expansion and deviations?
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much.

Hon Mpumza is correct.

Municipalities are supposed to do that and transactions are also supposed to be reported to the Treasury as I have said.
However, in our future plans of the structure that we are requesting, we will have people who will be based in provinces fulltime who will be able to monitor and assist municipalities if they have network problems to deal with those issues so that indeed everyone does do what they are supposed to do.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 14 Last night I was even checking, quite a number of them, maybe I did not check all of them obviously do publish on their website, but we will make sure that we work with Treasury that that happens.

Thank you.

Mr W M THRING: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.

Hon Minister, it is an open secret that some 50% or so of our municipalities are struggling to function as going concerns and or are dysfunctional.
This can also be verified by the numerous reports of the Auditor-General on the status of our municipalities.

Now, in the light of this, what is your department doing?

How will your department prepare, support and hold accountable those municipalities that do not comply with municipal and national legislation pertaining to the databases for tenders and contracts awarded to the companies and or individuals?

Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much.
As I said earlier that this particular function falls under Treasury because the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA, is a legislation that is administered by Treasury.

Nevertheless, we do try and work UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 15 together with Treasury and the responsibility for that falls under Treasury.

As I earlier said that for a start we will be visiting 43 municipalities amongst which are those which are dysfunctional, in fact, most of them.
The reason for us to dispatch officials to go to the municipalities is to precisely try and sit with them and assist.

We are also working with South African Local Government Association, Salga, and the school of governance to ensure that capacity is built within the municipalities.

Of course, municipalities must also employ people who are properly qualified.

If they do not employ people who are properly qualified for the job, that is where sometimes things go wrong.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Deputy Speaker, in 2018, the Matlosana Municipality procured a new accounting system at a great cost to the taxpayers of Matlosana.

This accounting system could not be implemented though taxpayers’ money was spent.

As a result, the municipality reverted back to the old system.

No benchmarking was done by the municipality due to the fact that the entrepreneur was a friend of the ANC.
If they did benchmarking they would have learned that the accounting system does not work at four other UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 16 municipalities and could the loss to the taxpayers be limited by quality assurance of products.

These companies are registered on a centralised database to be able to qualify and apply for tenders.
Thus, is there any system of procurement in place to assess quality assurance of products and services before they are procured by supply chain processes?

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Well, I don’t know how many times I have to say that the procurement is done and the people who oversee it is provincial and National Treasury, it is not Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta.
We work and try to assist but because we don’t administer the Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA, that responsibility is administered by Treasury.

As hon Emam said, because we are interested in good governance we also put our shoulders on the wheel to assist.

However, I think sometimes you must ask the questions from the departments that are directly involved.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Question 160: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 17 The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Speaker, Dr Schreiber, Chapter 10 of the Constitution covers the basic values and principles governing public administration.
Section 195(1)(i) stipulates that pubic administration be broadly representative of South African people with employment and personnel management practices based on ability, objectivity, fairness and the need to redress the imbalances of the past.
The White Paper on the Transformation of Pubic Service of 1995 was adopted and aimed to transform the South African service into a representative organisation, in line with section 10(2) of the White Paper that advocates for the introduction of reforms in the procedures of recruitment, selection and promotion of staff to promote greater equal opportunities in the public service.
Section 3(1)(c) of the Public Service Act of 1994 makes reference to (c) the condition of service and other employment practices for employees; (d) for labour relations in the public service; (e) for health and wellness of employees; (f) for information management in the public service; (g) for electronic government; (h) integrity, ethics, conduct and anticorruption in the public service; (i) transformation, reform, innovation and any other matter, to improve the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 18 effectiveness and efficiency of the public service in its service delivery to the public.
Legislation governing the filling of the posts in the public service are as follows.

Firstly, the Labour Relations Act of 1995, which is section 5 of the Act actually focusses on the protection of persons seeking employment.

Secondly, the Basic Conditions of Employment Act of 1997, section 29 thereof, which focusses on the written particulars of employment.

Thirdly, the Employment Equity Act of 1998, section 528, which focusses on unfair discrimination, medical testing, psychological testing.
Lastly, the Public Service Act of 1994, the Public Service Regulations that actually supports the Public Service Act of 1994, and collective agreements, determinations and directives within the public service.

In summary, the intention of recruitment based on the broad principles is to ensure that a transparent, fair and competitive process is followed in order to appoint the most suitable candidates who are fit and proper for the positions, as advertised.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Dr M M GONDWE: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, on 20 January 2020, the ANC’s cadre deployment committee met at the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 19 St George Hotel.

At that meeting, the ANC directly interfered in the appointment of the Director-General, DG, of the Department of Public Service and Administration and the appointment of the Principal of the National School of Government.
Hon Minister, given that your department is directly tasked with the responsibility to create a capable, ethical and nonpolitical public service, do you believe it is appropriate for the Minister of Public Service and Administration to be taking instruction from a political party on who to appoint in the department?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Gondwe, I think, what I have just presented now was actually a demonstration of processes within the Public Service in term of appointments.

They are actually based on fair and nondiscriminatory processes.

They are supported by legislation.

I have just read a number of pieces of legislation, including Public Service rules that are supposed to be adhered to in the appointment of personnel in the Public Service.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Ms M M NTULI: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, we are so pleased that you were able to explain and elaborate on this UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 20 matter and we hope everyone does understand, as you have put the matter on the table.

Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Speaker, thank you for the question, hon Ntuli.
It is just an endorsement of what I have just presented in a way that explains the principles, procedures that are ethical and that follow norms and standards within the Public Service.

Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, for the DA, cadre deployment means employment of black people and that for them is bad, regardless of the qualifications and expertise of black people.
They are emboldened in this notion because of the action of the ruling party, which has repeatedly employed people whose sole purpose is stealing from the public, while leaving out thousands of fully qualified black people who can contribute towards building the public sector.

What plans do you have to limit political interference in the appointment of DGs and DDGs in the Public Service, to allow them to do their jobs without having to consistently worry about their often corrupt political principals?
Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 21 The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Speaker, the public service does not have anything that is called cadre deployment.

It is something that is an assumption made just for political point-scoring, to make the department and the leading organisation in government look bad.
As I have indicated right at the beginning, I have articulated clearly how employment is carried out in the Public Service and there is nothing but the legislation that was adopted by this very House that I am in now.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, let me start off by saying that all political parties wherever they govern, only employ their own people.

There is no doubt about it.


What is important here is that the President, in the Zondo Commission, has also admitted that yes, indeed, the employment committee existed and that people were appointed.

He knew of them some but others he did not know about, but he could not do anything about it.

The question is: Learning from our mistakes, what measures can be put in place to ensure that we have independent bodies responsible for appointments and deployment all over the country in all spheres of government?
Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 22 The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Shaik-Emam, the public service in South Africa is one of the areas in government that is meant to ensure that there is effective and efficient service delivery across government to the people of South Africa.

The executive and also probably the leading party in South Africa take this very seriously.
Because of the constitutional democracy in which we work, we will always remember that we are supposed be guided by legislation, by the precincts of the constitution and whatever we do, we continue to adhere to those precincts of the Constitution.

I thank you.

Question 150: IsiZulu: The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Inkinga umbhobho wokukhuluma, manje uba sezansi uma umile kanti uma uhleli uyakwazi ukuwusondeza.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI ESIKHUNDLENI SIKANGQONGQOSHE WABESIFAZANE, INTSHA NABAPHILA NGOKUKHUBAZEKA EHHOVISI LIKAMONGAMELI: Awuthi ngizame-ke Sekela Somlomo.

Uyangizwa angithi Sekela Somlomo?

Uuyangizwa?

Angithi ningizwa kahle?

Ngikwazi ukuphendula kahle uma ngime ngezinyawo.

English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 23 I wish to thank the hon member for ... IsiZulu: ...umbuzo.
ngiqale ngokuthi uNgqongqoshe Maite Nkoana- Mashabane use-New York emhlanganweni omqoka kakhuli kabi ... English: ... for women, the Convention on the Status of Women.

That is why ... IsiZulu: ... engicele ukuba ngike ngithi ukummela ngoba esaphumile esayomela iNingizimu Afrika.
English: Yes, in monitoring co-ordination of multiple initiatives inclusive of youth employment the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities is working with partners in government such as the project management office ... IsiZulu: ... ejwayele ukubizwa nge- ... English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 24 ... Planning, Monitoring, Evaluation, PMU, in the Presidency.
The National Youth Development Agency, Nyda, Department of Employment and Labour, Trade and Industry and Competition, Small Business Development ... IsiZulu: ... neminye nje iminyango esibona ukuthi iyakwazi ukusiza ekuqashweni kwentsha.

English: Other partners are in civil societies such as Harambee Youth Employment Accelerator, Activate Southern Africa Labour and Development Research Unit, the University of Johannesburg, etcetera.
As conceptualised in the National Youth Policy, NYP, 2030, this partnership ensures that youth employment is tackled through collaboration with different stakeholders.

All these partners are part of the Presidential Youth Employment intervention announced by President in his February 2020, state of the nation address as comprehensive response to challenges of youth unemployment in South Africa.

The intervention is co-ordinated by the project management office, PMO, in the Presidency.
The PMO co-ordinates the national pathway management network which will provide active support UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 25 through multiple channels to support the entry and retention of young people in the labour market.
Furthermore, it is worthy to note that 23 114 young people were capacitated with skills to enter the job market, 9 292 youth were supported with nonfinancial business development intervention, 831 youth-owned enterprises were supported with financial interventions, and 3 905 jobs were created and sustained through supporting entrepreneurship and enterprises.
Important to note is that jobs were created and sustained through entrepreneurship development derived from three programmes, namely: market linkages voucher and grant programmes.

These jobs are either created or sustained as a result of the intervention offered by the programming business with young entrepreneurs.

And then (b) yes, the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities developed the monitoring and evaluation framework for national youth policy.
The framework has, among others, the indicators of youth unemployment.

Data is requested from different stakeholders on programmes and projects aimed at creating jobs.

This framework enables department to monitor progress on the high-level indicators as part of tracking implementation.

In addition, there is UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 26 integrated youth development strategy developed by the Nyda which will soon be presented to Cabinet for approval.
The strategy encourages society-wide, cross-sectoral exchange and programmes at developing and empowering our youth at local and provincial level.

I know, Deputy Speaker, that this is what government does and we are very conscious of the fact that jobs are very difficult to find, the economies are doing very well.

However, we are hoping that between government, the private sector and community, we can create the opportunities for young people.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Ms A S HLONGO: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

Can the Acting Minister of the department enlighten the House on findings the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation Framework of National Youth Policy that it developed?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES: Hon member ... IsiZulu: ... ngiyaxolisa nje ukuthi kuzofuneka uloko ushintsha kancane kodwa kuyofuneka ngisukume ukuze ngikwazi ukuphendula umbuzo.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 27 English: Yes, thank you very much, hon Hlongo.
Any evaluation that is done is done with an intention of appreciating and understanding what are the challenges that are faced so that when we develop policy, but not only when we develop policy, when we look for partners we must be able to be very specific about what the challenges are.
Therefore, in my answering the question earlier on I did indicate that ... IsiZulu: ... sinenkinga yemisebenzi, sinenkinga yomnotho ongakhuli ngokushesha ... English: ... so that ... IsiZulu: ... abantu bakwazi ukuthola imisebenzi.
English: And because of that ... IsiZulu: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 28 ... yiyo into eyenza ukuthi ikakhulukazi abantu abasakhula ... English: ... young people, many of them who by the way, if I may add ... IsiZulu: ... eMnyangeni Wokuthuthukisa Amabhizinisi Amancane, kulaba abathola u-R350 salenza ucwaningo olusibonisayo ukuthi ... English: ... those who are not getting the jobs are in years of 25 up to 40 and that is actually the period when young people are supposed to be in jobs.
Therefore, working together with the Department of Women, Youth and People with Disabilities, and all other departments any research that is being done is supposed to be used by all governments departments.

IsiZulu: Ngiyabonga.

English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 29 Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Since the start of the Presidential Youth Employment Intervention and the National Pathway Management Network Innovation Fund in 2021, and other programmes to actively address unemployment amongst our youth.

Can the Acting Minister elaborate on successes so far and whether the programmes such as enabling youth to access learning and earning opportunities are accessible to youth living in deep-rooted villages.

For example, in the uMuziwabantu Local Municipality villages, like KwaMashu under ...
[Inaudible.]

... and also ...

[Inaudible.]

... village, which has an ocean with fish and as far as where the most ...

[Inaudible.]

... in South Africa and also ...

[Inaudible.]

... village, in the uMdoni Municipality near Bram.

Has the Minister been helpful in providing these villages with free internet connectivity to access learning and earning opportunities?
I do parliamentary consensus work in these villages and really I care about them and I want to know whether the Minister ... [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you very much, hon Hendricks.

Maybe I should start from your point in order for you to get a full appreciation of the questions that you have asked.
I will ask UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 30 the department to provide you, specifically because you are asking about very specific projects, and upfront with regard to those specific projects I was not giving the answer specifically for those projects.

I’m not sure whether the department was given the follow-up question where they should have put the information together.
I will be upfront with you and say that the specific areas you are talking about I cannot respond to right now.

However, I promise that I’ll make sure that you get the necessary information.

Of course, I’m very much appreciative of the fact that you are the parliamentarian, the Member of Parliament, MP, that does the oversight over the executive on this.

And that your interest is to make sure that the people that you represent and the constituencies that you go to need to get the necessary information.
With regard to free internet, I think you are very much aware of the fact that government at all levels, national, provincial and local is doing a lot to make sure that we give people free access to internet connectivity and you are very much aware of the fact that there has been engagement with the telecommunications company, Telcos, all of them the Telcos, to make sure that they walk with us in this one because the more people have this free internet and especially young people, the more they are able to access the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 31 information they need for either schooling or looking for jobs or even those that are doing businesses.
Therefore, hon Hendricks apology that I’m not able to give you the full answer, I will make sure that you get it.

Thank you.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Yes, thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Minister, in order to enhance youth employment considering that we have 70% unemployment rate in the country.

Now, this matter was raised before on the challenges that we faced must start from the Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges themselves.
They should be speaking about the skills need so that many people can be employed.

What you find is that TVET colleges based on the availability of lectures a curriculum is created not based on the skills needs of the country.

That is why you would find not many of the youth are being employed or entering the trade like plumbers, electrical and many other fields including the agricultural things.
What mechanisms can you put in place to ensure that there’s some level of co-ordination between these colleges and the skills needs of this country to ensure that we enhance employment in the country, particularly among the youth and ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 32 DISABILITIES: Thank you very much, hon Shaik Emam, and my I also thank you because one of the things that you always doing to keep us in our feet.

You write to us, you ask us the questions, you tell us what is happening and we respond as much as we possibly can.
With regard to the question that you are posing, yes, I think it’s being said so many times that the skills sets that is produced not only at TVET colleges.

It is not actually the skills set that is needed in the new industry.

However, I do want to say that from a government point of view, from science and technology, Department of Basic Education, Department of Higher Education and Training, there is now a focus by government which government cannot work alone.
Government here must make sure that especially the private sector which needs these skills must work together because you are asking me about the mechanisms and the view that we have is that we need to look for a new skills set considering the fact that technology is also running very fast.

We have artificial intelligence; we have got a whole new way of technology that is happening.

Therefore, it is important for TVET colleges in particular to change their curriculum and change the way they are working.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 33 In fact, if I may also add my own practical experience because as the Department of Social Development working together with Basic Education, working together with Women, Youth and People with Disabilities.
We have got young people who are coming out of matric, and who are coming out of schools where there’s free education and the department through SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, is paying for their fees and all and we are now looking at how can we be able to assist them to go to the right TVET colleges to choose the right subjects so that when they finished the college they are then able to get the jobs.
However, importantly, we also think that young people must be assisted with starting their own businesses.

Therefore, the importance of small and medium enterprises here is very important.

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Mr S N SWART: Deputy Speaker, may I with your permission put the question on behalf of hon Sukers.

Thank you.

Hon Acting Minister, one of the biggest barriers to economic advancement and employment for youth and women is access to further learning.
One such initiative is to advanced learning is the National Senior Certificate for adults which obvious include young adults, which when implemented with provide access to further learning and training for millions of school dropouts.

Who, the hon Minister, and your department join the ACDP to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 34 call for the urgent and better implementation of this policy as it provides a bridge to employment and learning programmes.
Now, I appreciate Acting Minister that you might not be able to respond to this question at this stage, but you might want to comment in general or refer to hon Sukers in this regard once you have the relevant information.

Thank you so much.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ON BEHALF OF THE MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR WOMEN, YOUTH AND PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you once again.

Hon member, thank you for the follow-up question.
Yes, we don’t mind joining you in calling for exactly ensuring that this programme is implemented and I say so yes, because hon Sukers and myself have agreed on going into certain communities and dealing with the issues which are being faced, and even with this one I agreed with her on issues that are related to social development, but I’m 100% sure that Minister of Women, Youth and People with Disabilities wouldn’t mind going onto a campaign like that because quite frankly this is exactly what we need to do to make sure that the young people – firstly the recognition of the National Senior Certificate, but also the implementation of a programme that will make it easy for them we will gladly do that.
I’ll pass the message to the Minister and I’m 100% sure that she won’t say no to it.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 35 Question 173: IsiZulu: UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUBUSA NGOKUBAMBISANA NEZENDABUKO: Umhlonishwa uMkhaliphi, Sekela Somlomo, uyangithanda kakhulu ngibona nje ngemibuzo angibuza yona.

Ungibuza nje nemibuzo ekungeyona engabe uyibuza mina kodwa uyangibuza.

Ngiyabona ukuthi, hhayi, uyangithanda impela umhlonishwa uMkhaliphi.
Umhlonishwa uMkhaliphi ungibuza ngempesheni manje impesheni akuyona into elungiswa ngu-CoGTA, impesheni yizinto ezilungiswa kowezimali ka-Treasury.

Kodwake, ngoba uyangithanda, ungibuzile ukuthi impesheni ... ngicela ukusho ukuthi, cha, angikwazi ukuwuphendula lo mbuzo omayelana nempesheni ngoba akumina ozisebenzayo izimpesheni.

Ukube bekuyimina bengizokuphendula impela nje kahle.
Ngiyacela nje ngokukhulu ukuhlonipha nangokukhulu ukuzithoba ukuthi lo mbuzo mhlawumbe uye kwa-Treasury mayelana namabhodi ezimpesheni kanjalo.

Ngiyacela.

Ngiyacela impela, Sekela Somlomo.

English: The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, I think the Questions Office too has a responsibility to do this.

Hon Mkhalipi asked a relevant question.

The Questions Office should have redirected UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 36 it to the correct place.
What it means is that, given the fact that the Minister is unable to deal with it supplementary questions on this matter will have to be handled elsewhere.

Ms D W MACPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, this is the second question that the Minister has said it should actually be referred to the Treasury.

Often many issues are crosscutting, but the fact of the matter is that this is the municipal pension fund that falls under municipalities.

Those contributions are made by municipal councillors.
While it may be to deal with prudential issues, it is the responsibility of the Minister to then consult the Treasury about what she and the Treasury are doing about this specific issue.

So, I am not sure if it is fair to just say it is the Questions Office.

The Questions Office deemed it a suitable question, and the Minister must answer the question.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy Speaker, I think it is unfair because we wrote and followed all process in terms of the Rules of Parliament when we pose this questions to the Ministers.

Above that this matter was also discussed in a Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, meeting - the portfolio committee, PC, which Minister Dlamini is our Minister.
Therefore, I don’t think it is fair to just process UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 37 all the questions here and only when we are expecting the Minister to respond we get an answer saying that we love Minsters that’s why we ask questions that do not belong to their portfolios.

This matter was discussed in her portfolio committee.

Therefore, I think the Minster must try to answer.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon ...
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before that Minister, let me reply first.

I think I need to reply.

Chapter 10 part 1, 134(5)(a) and (b) of the Rules read as follows: No question may be addressed to any person other than a member of the Cabinet; and questions must relate to matters for which Cabinet members are officially responsible.

That is essentially what the Minister is saying.

She is!

Minister, you were going to speak and I said let me reply, go ahead and speak.
I have read the Rules and now you can reply, Minister.

You wanted to speak earlier on.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 38 The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

I just was wanted to respond to the hon member who said this is the second question I have refereed.

I have answered the two questions that were asked.


I have answered the supplementary questions and it is not correct to say I did not answer the questions and I said they must be referred to the Treasury.

This is the first one.

Honestly, I don’t deal with pensions and I can’t lie and say this is what is happening, this is what is happening.

Also, you have assisted me by reading the Rules.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Ms S GWARUBE: Deputy Speaker, you referred to Rule 134 where you particularly talked about 5(b) that it must relate to matters for which Cabinet members are officially responsible for.

The reality is that the Minister did go to the portfolio committee to present this very matter which is now on the Question Paper.

The reason why this matter was not kicked off by the Questions Office is because it does relate to her official duties on some level.
While it may crosscut other departments, but the reality is that [Interjections.]

excuse me, Minister, I am busy.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 39 The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let the hon member speak.

You can’t ...

[Interjections.]

IsiZulu: Anikwazi ukumxubha edla.

Yimani.

Yimani bo [Ubuwelewele.]

Anikwazi ukumxubha edla.

Qhubeka lungu elihloniphekile.


English: Ms S GWARUBE: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

The point that I am trying to make is that many matters in government are crosscutting across departments.

If one aspect of the matter is doubted by the Minister it is in fact an official duty of hers as per the Rule that you had reference.

And it is also with due respect that I think the Minister must answer.

What did she present in the portfolio committee if she can’t answer now?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: `Let me clarifies ...[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 40 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, just hold on.

Let me hear what hon Groenewald want to say.

Mr I M GREONEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

My hand has been up quite a while.

Please, make sure you look at the hands on the platform as well.
The question I want to ask in relation to the pension fund is directly under the Minister in terms of the SA Local Government Association’s Salga, involvement in this.

That’s why I think that, especially in terms of that that department do fall under the Minister.

I would request that she answer the question that came forward.

Please, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please respond.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERTATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: I never ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you want the Minister to speak to you.

Just hold your horses.

Let the Minister speak.

IsiZulu: UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUBUSA NGOKUBAMBISANA NEZINDABA ZENDABUKO: Angizange ngethule ngezimpesheni.

Ikomidi elibhekene UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 41 nomsebenzi yabiza isikhwama zezimpesheni ukuthi bazokwethula kulo.

Hhayi ukuthi mina ngethula ngesikhwama sezimpesheni.
English: The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the Minister has responded to the issues you are raising.

Hon Gwarube, the Minister says it was the Pension Fund that presented to the committee and this is why ... just give me a second.

There is a reference here.

Hon members, my attention is being drawn to the guidelines for asking and responding to questions.
It is (f) in the guidelines and it says: Questions may not be asked about the action of a Cabinet member for which he or she is not responsible to Parliament.

It is not in order to put a question to a Cabinet member for which another Cabinet member is more directly responsible, or to ask a Cabinet member to influence a colleague.

In essence what I understand this to mean is that this question that has been posed, the Minister best responsible to answer it is the Minister who deals with pensions and so on.
We have read it in the Rules and we have read it in the guidelines and I think the best solution is that we get the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 42 Minister who is responsible to directly respond.

I can ask the Minister to respond.

I have been asking her to do so, and she has replied and given you her response to this.

What do you want to say now, hon Gwarube?

Tell me!

Ms S GWARUBE: I have a suggestion.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, hold on.


Let me chair the meeting please.

Don’t scream it is out of order.

Let’s be appropriate for a while.

Ms S GWARUBE: Deputy Speaker, my suggestion is that we must now discuss this because Cogta will always have crosscutting issues.

Obviously, there are many other entities that Cogta will deal with.
We need an understanding from you and your team how then best to deal with this going forward because, of course, the Minister can’t then come every single time and say it doesn’t directly affect me.

So, please can I ask that this be looked into.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: In the mannerism speaking I know we do that - every time she would say this.

She hasn’t done so every time.

[Laughter.]

No, I am just cleaning up the language.

But I agree with you that the best place to deal with .

.

.
.

.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 43 because these guidelines for answering questions come from the Rules.

We will place it on the agenda so that we clean it up.

If you think it needs cleaning up, please bring your suggestions there.

We can’t discuss it in the House right now here.

Thank you very much, hon members.

Mr I M GROENEWALD: Deputy Speaker!

Mr A B RADEBE: Chairperson, you have made a ruling.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no!

Wait a minute I am chairing.


Mr E W MECPHERSON: Deputy Speaker, in terms of Rule 134 the question was placed with the Questions Office and placed on the Order Paper within the prescribed timelines.

If the Minister fell that she could not answer the question, she should have notified the Speaker’s Office that this question is not for her.
She chose not to do that and that is directly infringing on the member’s right who asked the question and she didn’t do that and I think that yourself need to have a word with the Minister that if she believe that this was not in her privy to answer, she should have said so within the timeframe which she did not do.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 44 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will do that.

I will have a word with the Minister.

Mr A B RADEBE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


I think that this House will go into chaos if we don’t respect your rulings.

I request that the Rules be implemented to the later.

There are a lot of prejudices which have occurred here.

The people who were asking questions previously some had asked three questions and they overturn your own ruling.

This thing will lead to chaos in the House.

I request that there must be consistency, Chair.

Mr I M GROENEWALD: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


In relation to what I said earlier as well as in terms of the Rules that you have read, my question still pertains specifically to Salga and the role that they play in the directorship within that municipal bank’s pension fund.

If you would, Deputy Speaker, allow me to ask at least my follow-up question because as soon as the other Minister comes, the Minister will also say that that doesn’t follow under him.

Now we are sitting with a problem.


To who must I ask this question?

May you allow me, Deputy Speaker, to ask my question.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 45 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, I will not allow you, but I will take what you are saying.

May you give us that question so that in addressing this question in the Rules committee we provide a broader one and not necessarily only this one so that we get answers that you are going to be responded to.
Let us not over milk the cow now, please.

I think you have made an appropriate observations and we would like to have answers.

As a result, hon Mkhalipi, unfortunately, because of that we will not be able to have any other supplementary questions.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy Speaker The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, I am saying that you have asked the question and there will also be no supplementary questions because of the reasons we have given.

I am aware it is not a supplementary question.


I was just gesturing to you as the original asker of the question.

That’s all!

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: I am calling for an order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the order for?

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Deputy Speaker, I think you as a person presiding over this meeting owe me an apology because it means UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 46 that Parliament misled me as a Member of Parliament when I was doing my oversight.
Now you can’t brush it away as if I have not done my oversight.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can you allow us ...[Interjections.]

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: `Can I finish, Deputy Speaker?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I request your indulgence.

We can’t be on this matter for so long.

What I am suggesting is that we will come back to you.

Allow us to go and discuss it in the Rules so that we bring to the House an appropriate response.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: I do take that, Deputy Speaker, but I am saying that we have brought the question here and we have followed all the proper procedures in terms of bringing the questions.

I think you, as the presiding officer today, owe me an apology to say that you as Parliament have misled me.

That’s what I am saying, Deputy Speaker.


Going to the Rules to discuss this matter is another thing, but now I am saying that I was misled by Parliament to say that I am going to do my oversight to the Minister UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 47 The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Madam, hon member Mkhalipi, you are jumping into a dangerous conclusion and I disagree with you.

I have ruled on this matter and we proceed.


You will hear from us after the discussions in the appropriate structure.

With the greatest respect I am not entertaining any more discussions on this matter.

Thank you very much.

Question 152: The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, let us appreciate the question.
The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation indeed has published guidelines on the impact evaluation whose purpose is to assist government departments to effectively plan and manage impact evaluation.

Randomly the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation does at different times do go and do on its own an impact assessment.

The recent strategic planning assessment has demonstrated that only limited number of these assessments have been done by various departments.
It is against that background that our overall evaluation is ongoing in this regard.

With regard to tools; we are again using various tools to do the work.

Firstly, the annual performance plans.

Recently, we UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 48 have introduced what we now commonly refer as the national annual planning tool to align Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, with the given year of planning.
The department does monitor government performance on quarterly basis.

Also on biannual terms at times using electronic quarterly performance reporting system.

The biannual reports are submitted to Cabinet to ensure corrective measures.

With regard to evaluations; up to now, we have focused on implementation and evaluation.
We are actually turning that around to make sure that there is a healthy balance between monitoring and evaluation in order to ensure that as we implement, we are on the predetermined direction.

Lastly, of course, the other new tool is the district development model which is driving one plan, one programme and so on.

Those are sort of tools that we are using.

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Ms M T KIBI: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, thank you for the response.
Hon Minister, noting that your department issues guidelines to departments, to conduct impact evaluation: Does the department monitor and assess whether the guidelines are effectively implemented by the department’s to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 49 yield the expected outcome?

If so, what are the findings of the assessment?

I thank you, Deputy Speaker.


The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, that aspect it is being carried, but we have come to accept that it is not carried as frequent as it is supposed to.

As a result, I will show as we continue to give you answers that we have been doing what we call the biannual examination on six months’ basis and only evaluating pure activities.
We are changing that to go on quarterly basis as I have said already to balance between monitoring and evaluation; it is only after that we will be able to give a full and a sound answer to your question, hon member.

Thanks.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, you do not sound well.

If you have a fever, please, man: Should you be here?

If it is true and I am serious.

Sir, if you are not well, please man, and especially – you should not overlook your doctor’s advice.

Please!
Please!

We know it is important to be present on duty all the time.

If it is correct that you do sound as I suggest you do, do not feel obliged to stick around.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 50 The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, unless you chase me out, I feel alright.

[Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I do not know whether it is about you alone.

Mr K CEZA: Deputy Chair.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Speaker.


Mr K CEZA: Deputy Speaker, can you also ask the Minister to wear his mask, please.

For his nose ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I know, but he was speaking.

That is why he did not have it in.

Normally when you speak we ask you not to put on your mask.

Thank you.

Alright.

Let us proceed.

I raised the issue and if we are assured, I hope we are not going to have a problem.

Alright.

The hon J J Mcgluwa.

I have not seen you in a long time.


Mr J J MCGLUWA: Hon Deputy Speaker, you really made me worry because I am sitting directly opposite the Minister.

[Laughter.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 51 Hon Minister, clearly the tools to conduct impact assessment has been in existence since the inception of our Constitution.
Our Constitution referred to the Auditor-General and the Public-Protector of South Africa, let alone the Public Finance Management Act that is also in place; whatever government is going to do to assess the impact on how money is stolen, clearly, it is not working.

The fact remain that the irregular expenditure is at a record high.

Hon Minister, my question does: How will any new tool be different and more effective in ensuring the persecution of corrupt officials in government departments?

I thank you.
I thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hope you hear me with a mask.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, no, when you speak, it is alright to take it off.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: For we do not want you to muffle the sound.

At least I appeal to you.

Yes.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 52 The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Hon member, we mainly deal with the performance.

Of course, when we produce results they are mainly oriented to make assessments and evaluate performance.

You are correct that if there are irregular expenditures that do not pass the test, there is something wrong.

Is as if you were listening to me when I was introducing this that one of the instruments we are introducing this year, is something called the national annual strategic plan instrument.
It is a tool which is tightened to ensure that the Magento Functional Testing Framework, MFTF, goals are structured and properly followed in a given year.

Secondly, we have done assessments of annual performance plans, APPs, two times now before this coming year, 2022-23.

We are doing a final check-up in the coming week so that before they enter the space we want to make sure that they pass the test of the theory change.
Hon member, our attitude, whilst it is important to look at the rear mirror, we are now spending a lot of time using the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 53 windscreen, may lest we fall.

In other words, we take your questions very serious and I hope the measures we are now introducing will make a difference.

I may not say a lot about the measures that happen there before, but we accept a lot has not gone right.
That is why a lot of reports be it on corruption and the Zondo Commission are there because a lot has not been going right.

All together as colleagues in Cabinet, we are trying to introduce measures that we think are going to work, hoping to reduce the irregular expenditure as you have articulated.

Thanks.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much.

Hon Minister, you may now put on your mask.

The hon R N Komane.

IsiZulu: Akekho!


English: Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Hon Deputy Speaker, let me take her question as a Whip on duty?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright.

Go ahead.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 54 Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Alright, thank you, hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, one clearest indicator of the fact that government at the national level has no clue of what is going on across the national, provincial and local spheres of government.
It is the reality that year after year, the Auditor-General, AG, releases the reports about the state of government departments across all spheres.

Municipalities are dysfunctional, the education system is collapsing, the public health is on its knees: Why have you not used the reports and the recommendations of the AG report in order to address the systemic and chronic inefficiencies of governance across the three spheres of government?

Thank you, Minister.


The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think dealing with the hon member preceding the hon member, on the platform, I have just said, we acknowledge that just it is not even us not revealing anything, there is a lot of things that we are dealing with.

Hon member, one of the things we are doing is, we were just recently in Mahikeng.
We introduced what we call integrated planning, monitoring and evaluation framework and also UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 55 introducing institutionalisation of this mechanism.

As I am talking to you now, we are looking at having a session with the premiers and mayors, so that we ensure that this system that we are trying to check-up, both in balancing and evaluation and monitoring is not a national story, but it is a story that must be shared by the provinces.
We are also saying that the frequency of monitoring is going to improve.

More especially on catalytic projects, monthly and more on quarterly basis, so that we are able to pick up things on time.

Again, we hope implementing the japed up system that we are going to execute, we are going to get better.

We are hopefully going to deal with issues you have already raised.

Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.


Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, across all departments and especially in relation to crime within the Republic, we are not only seeing persistent challenges, but also increasing crime statistics.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 56 I would like to know what tools have been put in place to assess the impact of current resources in government efforts to reduce crime across the board?
The hon Minister, will measures be taken to increase the budget of entities who are failing to address the needs of service delivery where measuring tools indicate insufficient budget noncompliance with regulations and irregular expenditure?

If not, why not?

Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, if you look at the Budget made by the Minister of Finance, he has added not less than R8,7 billion to the Police.
The President announced that more than 10 000 new police recruits will be trained and a number of related personnel will be trained.

The other issue is as you know is against the Prof Mufamadi High-Level Review Panel report, a lot of stories came out there against which plans have been put in place.

All those issues of which the intensions are to deal with crime.

Over and above, as I am saying, the annual performance plans, APPs, cut across all the organs of state.
Whether you are a state-owned entity, or a department.

When it comes to state- owned entity, I am sure again if you remember what the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 57 Minister of Finance said, and he said it is no longer father charismas as usual in accessing finances by them.

If you want to access finances as a state-owned enterprise before the Minister you must put a turnaround plan that pass the authenticity test.
So, all those measures in toto we believe that are able to deal with that.

I hope I have tried to answer your question, hon member, with its underlying concerns.

Thanks.

Question 144: The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker.

The Ministry in the President pays an oversight role to the Government Communication and Information System, GCIS, which pays an oversight role over the Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA.
Against that background, it is our observation based on records that that institution has been able to stabilise.

As we speak, one of the manifestations to that effect is that they have been able to get a clean audit.

The GCIS has a media bulk-buying unit that procures all types of media, including community media while MDDA lobbies for funding and provides grant funding and other non-functional support to these small medium enterprises.
The stability in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 58 the institution has led to an engagement with telecommunication companies.
amongst us, we ended up having Memorandum of Understanding, MoU, with the Citizen Entrepreneurial Development Agency, CEDA, National Electronic Media Institute of South Africa, NEMISA, the Media, Information and Communication Technologies Sector Education and Training Authority, MICTSETA on sector training and are looking forward for partners that can play various support roles to the sector.
The entity through the board and the Deputy Minister has been opened for discussion around the funding of MDDA by the Commercial Print Media Houses.

At the moment the sector has been given print in discounts.

The entity, hon Deputy Speaker, will also be meeting the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, to galvanise support by municipalities to these entities.
The entity launched its fundraising strategy on 11 March 2022 to identify new partners and lobby for more resources to fund the small media enterprises, including community media.

The entity is also undertaking sustainability research, which will culminate into sustainability model aimed to assist SMMEs in UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 59 the areas of MICT and also to ensure sustainable in the long term.

Thanks, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much.


Hon minister, can I use as an example some of your responses to make a point that I know we are talking to each other?

This is members asking Minister to respond.

But it is the public that is listening to us and they would like to hear what you are talking about.

When we abbreviate or use acronyms we will lose the full meaning of them.
So, can I plead that as a general practice, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and members in the questions that we posed that we speak a language which anybody listening to us immediately know what we are talking about.

Media Development Diversity Agency as an example.

So, I am just pleading with all of us, not just you.

Maybe that will help, especially because you are talking about what we call GCIS.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Do you want me to correct those abbreviations?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, I am just mentioning as a principle approach to communicating ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 60 The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY I accept your counselling.

Thank you.

Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thanks to the Minister for a very good encouraging response.

Minister, the members of the Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, are appointed by the President and two more from the mainstream media.
The question is whether the Minister will consider that members of the small media publishers also be represented on the Media Development and Diversity Agency Board?

It cannot be that advertising revenue goes to those media who promoted apartheid and media that create a narrative that kindly there will be better so in apartheid returns to South Africa.

Appointing a competent person representing small media publishers on how to bring the state to order if the Minister want that transformation.
We cannot live for 25 years without transformation.

The advertising industry has been under fire this week by the Human Rights Commission, the Media Development and Diversity Agency ...

I look forward to the Minister’s answer, Deputy Speaker.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.

To the hon member, I think what he raises is very important.
I think we are open, hon member, to reconfiguration of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 61 representation MDDA that is going to add value because we take serious the issue of media diversity, especially to the extent that it ensures that small institutions in the sector are given energy and wings to fly.

If therefore improving the board representation in the manner proposed, it’s a matter we are prepared to look at.

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.


Ms T MGWEBA: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

And thank you very much, Minister, with your response.

But however, my supplementary question to you is that instead of calling for all three spheres of government to fund the small media enterprises, is it not the funding model of small media enterprises through the Media Development and Diversity Agency that needs to be revisited?

I thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Chairperson.
Maybe to draw your attention - it’s not the first time one interfaces with this agency.

I interfaced it when I was a member of portfolio committee at a given point in time.

I think a lot of interventions will stay opened to even if is the funding model that we need to speak about because where I am sitting now I can tell you that GCIS does actually give quite a number of these institutions.

It buys platforms from them except that the challenges in the small commercial one’s.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 62 One of the things that we are trying to deal with is to make sure that we get full records of their audience.

But does it make it enough?

No, a lot of them still don’t access the funds as minimal required.

Against that background your point, hon member, is taken that, it’s one of the issues on the table like what other hon members said about improving representation even model improvement needs to be looked at.
If there is a case for improving the model, we will have to deal with that.

And we are open.

Mr Z N MBHELE: Minister, given the short to medium term focuses of low economic growth and thus reduce checks and revenue for the public purse is which seems highly unlikely that the government in any sphere will be able to increase advertorial support for community media as suggested by the primary question.
So, will the Minister therefore not agree that a more feasible approach one in line with the President’s call for social actors to work together more closely will be one of partnership building and increase stakeholder collaboration such as incentivising low interest loan providers to help fund UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 63 start-up small commercial media operators and encouraging big corporates, especially in the retail sector by more air space in community media towards the markets.
Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon member.

Thanks for reminding us about the call by the President for a new consensus.

We will leave no one behind.

I guess when the President make that call, it is in essence in line with what you are saying, hon member, that the call faltered around in the country and the resources required to support that call are of such a nature that working together we can do better.
Therefore, I would just maybe let you know – one of the large print house media had left the MDDA because of instability at this spot in time.

They are beginning to come back, and some of the are already making undertakings that they are going to talk to amongst one another to actually see a bigger picture because a clearer society is a comer society and a comer society is the better society to unleash its energy.
And when the entire society unleashes its energy is a better chance for better impact in our economy.

So, in another words it could not have been stated better than in your side and your point is taken seriously in that context.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 64 Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Minister, there are over 200 community radio stations in this country and almost all of them are struggling to make ends meet and are laying the blame at the MDDA for lack of support.
What is the government’s conceptualisation of the role of community radio stations as a tool of information sharing?

What have you done to make sure that these stations are supported?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thanks, hon Mkhaliphi.

I guess this government is this government which put the media diversity agency in place.
Again, amongst other thing, it was responding to us to ensure the fruits of a hospital government which is people’s centred, it’s a government where the general societal a level of clarity is very high and the chances of transparency with regard to opportunities are also very high.

Therefore, it is against that background that this government accepted that SABC on its own even large houses on their own are not an adequate capacity to inform society.
Therefore, against that background coming from our Constitution, we remain committed to that already based on what I have already said.

That’s why I am so sad now.

The NTT is also undertaking sustainability research, which will culminate into UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 65 sustainability model aimed to assist the SMMEs in the areas of needs and to ensure that they are self-sustainable in the long term.

And this research is not coming from the moon out of the blue.
It’s because it is actually affected by the issues that I have just raised, hon member.

That we can do better in that area but there is a number of community media institutions that have benefitted in this assistance.

The story is in each province but we do accept that huge amount of work still needs to be done.

Thank you, hon Speaker.

Question 154: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, Chair.
Hon Ntuli, through the development interventions that are prioritized, the department is definitely witnessing resilient public service.

One of the clear factors shaping the performance of public services, a broad education and training and environment that is currently in place.
Over years, the Department of Public Service and Administration has been assisting departments in the development of their employees in a co-ordinated manner through the implementation of Human Resources Development Strategic Framework for public service, supported by UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 66 associated, determinations, directives, guidelines and other related subordinate legislations provided under the Public Service Act No 103 of 1994, as amended to guide them on how to plan and conduct education and training for employees, to conduct needs assessment for both employees and organisations, alignment of human and capital resources, and to put in place a monitoring and evaluation systems for impact assessment.
The implementation of these development initiatives within the public service contributes towards implementation of the National Human Resource Development Strategy of South Africa towards 2030 and the National Skills Development Plan 2030.

Both of which are aimed at ensuring that South Africa has adequate, appropriate and high quality skills that contributes towards economic growth, employment creations and social development to using a combination of these measures.
The National Development Plan suggests that in order to achieve a high quality public service, improving and maintaining infrastructure and conditions for economic development all require a professional public service and a capable state.

This was quoted from the National Planning Commission Report of 2011, page 365.
One of the observations made by the National Development Plan is that public service UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 67 faces a severe shortage of staff and specialised skills, especially in health, policing, infrastructure, planning and engineering, finance and information technology.
These adversely impacts not only front lines services, but also the long term planning and co-ordination in line with the plan for building a capable, effective and professional public service.

The Department of Public Service and Administration has identified interventions which will contribute to the achievement of the above agenda.
These interventions are to contribute to professionalization of public service by improving skills levels of existing employees, by assisting them to acquire the requisite professional and technical qualifications, in order for them to undertake their responsibilities in professional and competent manner, and also strengthening the talent pipelines by investing in ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

... and undergraduate students studying towards occupation considered scarce with a view to channel and retain them in the employ of the department by increasing the capacity of the departments.

I thank you, Chair.

Ms M M NTULI: Hon Deputy Minister, thank you very much for your informative response.

You elaborated and expatiated and indeed we are educated in this House.
But I wanted to ask a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 68 follow up Question on that one to say that the public service is a strategic and critical human resource for the nation.

Are we nurturing this human resource and is the nation experiencing the impact of this or is it getting lost in the mediocre of the challenges?

Thank you, Chairperson.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: House Chair, the Department of Public Service has developed a new Human Resource Development Strategic Framework based on lessons learned from the previous and implemented Human Resource Development Strategy Frameworks.

Whilst a full impact study was not conducted, there has been evidence of improved performance due to the implementation of a strategic frameworks across public service.
New strategic frameworks build on the work that was consulted with Cabinet committee which recommended further work which the Department of Public Works and Administration is currently dealing with.
Whilst there has been recorded improvement, including enhancement in human resource planning, filling of vacant positions and performance management, the Department of Public Service and Administration is working on measures to build capacity through enhancement to individual employees and how UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 69 this links towards government performance.

I thank you, House Chairperson.

Dr M M GONDWE: Thank you, Chairperson.


Hon Deputy Minister, one of the reasons that the public service is failing our people and riddled with elements of corruption and fraud is due to the ruling party’s entrenched practice of cadre deployment.

I know you said in your previous response that there is nothing like that.

But Deputy Minister, we do have access to indicate otherwise.
So my question becomes, how will your department ensure that cadre deployment is totally rooted out of the recruitment and selection process in the public service?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, House Chairperson.

Hon Gondwe, thanks for acknowledging that we have already dealt with the matter of cadre deployment - that it does not exist.

Maybe you had already prepared the question, but its fine.
One thing that I want to actually say to you is that we are a government that is viciously fighting corruption ...

[Laughter.]

... even if you may want to continue to create an impression that this government is corrupt.

You should, with the same breath, manage to acknowledge the fact that this government is UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 70 viciously fighting corruption ...

[Applause.]

... and this is based in the measures out in place.
If you look at what we are doing from the Department of Public Service and Administration, there is a task team that is called the Public Administration Ethics Integrity and Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit, PAEIDTAU, that was launched towards the end of last year.

We are busy with lifestyle audits and I know that some of the questions will actually be bothering on lifestyle audit, and it is because of the fact that we are viciously fighting corruption.
There is what is called a fusion centre that was formed when there were allegations around Personal Protective Equipment, PPEs.

That fusion centre has all the state organs that have to do with crime together so that we can be in a position in the first place to fast track, to have proper investigations and to fast tracks ways of dealing with matters of corruption within government.

So this government - please listen carefully - ...

[Laughter.]

... is viciously fighting corruption.


I thank you, House Chairperson.

Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Deputy Minister, for many South Africans, seeking assistance from public service for workers is a painful experience.
From UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 71 the conversation I have had with many members of the public, they claim for instance that it is now almost impossible to get services at Home Affairs offices without bringing officials to expedite your matter.

What has cost the degeneration of public service to this level and what are you doing to salvage the image of public service in the eyes of the public?

I thank you, House Chair.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, hon Motsepe for the question.

But let me begin by saying to you that we are a government that manages to acknowledges the shortfalls within government.

We are not saying that we are perfect government, but we know that we are a government that is delivering.

You are making reference to Home Affairs.


We know the kind of flaws that we have within Home Affairs, but we also acknowledge the good work that our Department of Home Affairs is doing for us.

What is important, moving forward, is also to try and manage to understand all the deliverables that are coming from various departments.

I thank you, House Chairperson.

Ms H DENNER: Thank you, House Chair.


Hon Deputy Minister, resilience is one thing, and we appreciate that you acknowledge the flaws of the public service as well.

But we UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 72 all know that one can only do so much with what you have to work with in a way of resources, such as ICT equipment, adequate office space and facilities, technical support and the likes.
South Africans are bombarded with service delivery problems as previous speakers also mentioned such as drivers’ licences that can’t be printed, medical staff having to buy their own supplies, water and electricity to public service buildings being shut off due to non-payments, dilapidated office spaces and the list is never ending.

Does your department see the working environment and conditions of public service employees as an important priority?
Do you agree that some work under the impossible conditions and what is your department’s plan to address these conditions that despite the best efforts of some public servants make their work and public service delivery impossible?

Thank you, Deputy Minister.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: House Chairperson, what I want to say in response to the question that has been put forward is that as the Department of Public Service and Administration, it is our duty to continue to work towards effective and efficient public service.
It is our duty to build a capable state and this is UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 73 demonstrated in a manner in which we will put measures in place to ensure that we capacitate our public servants in order for them to be in a position to perform in their duties maximally.
If you look at public service and you look at the kind of provisions that we make towards capacitating public service servants, you would realise that, like I indicated earlier, there is a whole lot of education and training that goes on within public service, and that is meant for capacitating public services.
Where we realise that there is a need, we are saying that there are areas where there is a little bit of chaos or many things are not working okay, once we identify that, we make it a point that we make the necessary interventions in order for us to be sure that public service will continue to operate in an effective and efficient way.

Also, taking into consideration the most important principle that we apply which is the Batho-Pele Principle, because we take the people of South Africa serious.
And, we know that public servants are there to offer services to our people as we have promised them.

And this is a promise as government we intend keeping.

I thank you, House Chairperson.

[Applause.]

Question 147: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 74 The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, and thank you to the hon member.
Let me start just by saying that the community works programme, remodelling process was designed to be a journey rather an event.

Our intent is to experiment with new and innovative ways, to maximize the impact on our limited resources on poverty, inequality and unemployment.

We are still in the early stages of this remodelling process.

Although there’s been a significant improvement on the operational side.
Improving the actual impact of the Community Works Programme will be evident over the medium term, that is one to two years.

The new Community Works Programme Implementation Policy, as well as the updated service level agreements, have so far had an impact in the following areas: implementing agents were appointed through an open competitive building process and had to compete on the percentage project management fees.
This resulted in an overall reduction in the total project management fees, due to implementing agency.

Both the policy and service level agreement addressed the operational shortcomings that resulted in material UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 75 irregularities, previously identified by the Auditor General.

Unlike the previous model implementing agency project management fees are now based on actual financial performance.
All procurements above a R100 000 by implementing agency are now also verified by the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs supply chain management to ensure compliance with applicable legislation and regulations.

In the short term, this resulted in procurement delays, including training due to several implementing agency adjusting to procuring on a fully compliant manner.

We are however confident that these arrangements will have a positive impact in future.
Service realised through improved procurement processes and reduction project management fees, were utilised to increase the participants’ stipends for eight day participants from 780 to 840.

And, for 20 days’ participants from 2540 to 2600 per month, that is 7,7% and 2,3% respectively.

Savings were further utilised to increase the total participation targets from 250 000 to 255 000.
In terms of the new implementation policy, the department has direct oversight over the development and the implementation UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 76 of site business plans and training plans aimed at improving a positive impact on the Community Works Programme on public goods and services and on participant’s skill development.

The department is in the process of developing its internal skills base.
To provide the direction needed in the areas of useful work and training.

The full impact of this new approach will therefore be realised over the medium term.

While the community ... IsiZulu: USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Siyabonga.

Siyabonga, Ngqongqoshe.

Sesiphelile isikhathi kodwa ungaqhubeka.

Singakupha omunye umzuzu wokuthi uqedele.

Qedela, Ngqongqoshe.


English: The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: I also wanted to say as part of our progressive remodelling, we also got National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, to work in the Public Works Programme but it’s only in one province.

They have been able to facilitate 100 youth participants to exit approximately into the tourism and retail value chains.

The NYDA does receive project management fees but are only rather reimbursed for actual programme overheads.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 77 We have seen that actual overheads are approximately over 4% of the programme’s budget compared to project management fees of implementing agency rate fees ranging from 5 to 6,5% ... [Time expired.]

Mr F D XASA: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, over the past ...

[Inaudible.]
[Inaudible.]

... financial years the agrarian revolution programme, which has been a dedicated programme of the Community Works Programme was allocated R324 million to fund its 36 projects across the seven provinces; the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Limpopo, North West, Free State and the Western Cape.

But, several nonprofit organizations which were implementing agencies, exceeded their budgets but had not completed the project.
What is the status of these projects, following the implementation of the remodelled Community Works Programme, CWP?

Thank you very much.

IsiZulu: USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Siyabonga, baba u-Xasa noma ubungabonakali kahle kodwake izwi lona besilizwa.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, the department between April and December 2021 verified all projects and the expenditure in the UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 78 agrarian programme.

All the agrarian projects were put on hold during this period.

The verification process confirmed that, in several cases agrarian projects were poorly managed with inadequate business plans.
The department has not yet paid the nonprofit organizations, npos the 5% retained portion of their project management fees for the April 2018-21.

The verification process will enable the department to hold the NPOs accountable and to recover the funds from the NPOs where necessary.

The department is currently finalising plans to complete existing projects during this 2022-23 financial year.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Ms E R J SPIES: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, the people on the ground simple does not have one to two years to wait for this remodelling plan.

Minister on 1 February I received complaints from Community Works Programme workers from the Langerberg and ...

[Inaudible.]

... districts, respectively ranging from not receiving their salaries to not having equipment and non being procured.
Minister, it is now five to six months after this progressive remodelling policy implementation plan, call it what you want, the situation remains the same.

Minister, can you give us your assurance that no irregular expenditure what so ever would be incurred UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 79 on the Community Works Programme in this financial year?

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATION GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, we do acknowledge that during that period, there was a problem, but the problem was due the connectivity issue at State Information Technology Agency, SITA, so the servers were down, so we were not able to pay just during that period but subsequently and before they were paid and subsequently they are being paid.
And we say the impact - for instance if you look at what NYDA has been able to do, it’s been able to train the CWP so that they could even exit the programme and go into tourism, into retail and they will be going to other areas.

Because that was originally what the CWP was meant to do.

But unfortunately it wasn’t doing that.

The implementing agency were not training young people so that they have portable skills that they can take and exit the programme and get jobs or create jobs themselves.
So, they were just recycling the same participants, without them getting the skills.

So we are improving, is not the same as I say and even the amount that they are charging us, we have been able to reduce.

So, there UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 80 is progress but I cannot say that you can change CWP overnight.

Thank you.
Thank you.

IsiZulu: Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo, ngiyethemba uNgqonqoshe ngoba uthe uyangithanda, unayo impendulo-ke kulo mbuzo wami ngoba ... English: ... it is a follow-up question.

Minister, your department allocates annual budget for the Community Works Programme, this kind of work is permanent in nature but people are employed on rotational, temporary basis.
Why have you not considered using this budget allocation to employ people on a permanent basis to do exactly the kind of work, that CWP workers do.

For instance, to fix potholes, to fix water leaks, to clear alien vegetation and so on and so on.

IsiZulu: ... ukuze abantu bakithi babe nemisebenzi wanomphela hhayi lawa manqampunqampu umnyango wakho mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe obanika yona.

Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 81 UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUBUSA NGOKUBAMBISANA NEZINDABA ZENDABUKO: Hhayi, ngiyamthanda vele umhlonishwa uMkhaliphi ngizomphendula.

Lolu hlelo lwaluvele lungazange lidalelwe ukuthi luqashe abantu ngokugcwele.

Laludalelwe ukuthi lulekelele abantu abangenawo umsebenzi abangenawo amakhono ukuthi baqeqeshwe ukuze bakwazi ukuthola imisebenzi bakwazi futhi mhlawumbe baziqalele imisebenzi yabo.
Kodwake esikutholile uma sifika kulo mnyango ukuthi abakwenzi lokhu abaqashelwe ukuthi bakwenze.

Yingako sithi indlela yokusebenza siyayishintsha ukuze kwenzeke ngale ndlela ekwakufanele kwenzeke ngayo ukuthi baqeqesheke, bakwazi ukuyothola imisebenzi noma bakwazi ukuziqalela imisebenzi.

Khonamanje kukhona uhlelo esisaluvivinya ukuthi lungasebenza yini lokuthi sisebenze ne-Construction Seta siqeqeshe laba bantu be-CWP ukuthi bahlanze amadolobha, bavale imigodi.
Uma sebenawo lawo makhono, omasipala sebengabaqasha ukuthi babheke imigaqo ukuthi uma umgaqo ubanezigodi bakwazi ukuyivala.

Ngakhoke senza kanjalo.

Uma sizovele nje mabaqashwe ngokugcwele kusho ukuthi, okokuqala, bazoba mbalwa kabi abantu abazoqashwa kanti lokhu kusiza abantu abangu-250 000.

Uma sesizothi abaye komasipala bonke ngokugcwele kusho ukuthi bayoba mbalwa abazoqashwa.

Ngiyabonga.
Ngiyabonga.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 82 English: Ms M D HLENGWA: House Chairperson, hon Minister, please may you confirm if the new 2021 Community Works Programme Policy, has in any way impacted the number of municipalities, that are able to offer the CWP as well as the number employment opportunities created?

Further, please confirm the number of municipalities that have implemented the new policy.

I thank you.
I thank you.

The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATION GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The number of sites have not necessarily increased but the number of participants have increased.

Thank you.

Question 163: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, House Chairperson.

Hon Gondwe, the report is an outcome of the investigation, the mandate of the investigation belongs solely to the SA Police service, SAPS.
The SAPS is in charge of the investigations, and would be in a better position to provide answers in terms of the numbers that have been investigated relating to the fraudulent transactions or fraudulent applications for the R350 grants.

Thank you, House Chairperson.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 83 Setswana: Ngaka M M GONDWE: Ke a leboga, Modulasitulo.
English: Hon Deputy Minister, the office of the Auditor-General found out that at least 5 812 public servants fraudulently applied for and received the Social Relief of Distress, SRD, Grant, and you say that you take people of this country seriously, but to date there is 5 812 public servants who stole money from the state during the pandemic, are still the employees of the state.
My question is very simple hon Deputy Minister, when are the cases involving these public servants who unlawfully applied for and benefitted from these SRD Grants going to be finalised, and when will the implicated public servants be fired and arrested?

you take corruption in a serious light and you are dealing with this viciously, thank you.

Why hasn’t anything happened?


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, hon Gondwe, basically, the question says, or the information that you actually managed to get says, the 5 000 had applied.

Now, remember that we are living in a UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 84 constitutional democracy, where there has got to be fairness.

Where there is an allegation, it needs to be fair and there must be a due process that actually takes place.
You are actually saying to me now that, these people must just be punished because there have been allegations that they have applied fraudulently for the R350 grants.

Basically, an initial response to your question was that, as the Department of Public Service and Administration, we are not investigating any cases, that is the mandate of the SA Police service.

Also remember that, the R350 grants has also to do with SASSA, and SASSA has got a ministry that is responsible for it.
Probably, your answer lies somewhere, but not with the Department of Public Service and Administration.

I thank you, hon House Chairperson.

Ms S GWARUBE: House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members.

Hon Gwarube.
Ms S GWARUBE: House Chair, I am rising on Rule 134 of the National Assembly Rules which states that, questions are given to Ministers ahead of time, and when the Minister or Deputy UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 85 Minister deemed it that it was not in her purview to answer the question around, consequence management or people in the public service, she should have flagged Parliament, so that the question can be revised or reposed, or a different question would be answered, but Ministers can’t come here and then simply pass the buck to other members of Cabinet, it’s unacceptable and it makes a mockery of this whole session.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, the session for question and answer is meant for the public out there, let alone ourselves.

So, the Minister or the Deputy Minister should, of course, use the best opportunity if he has to answer the questions, but they always do their best in answering those questions.
If Members of Parliament are not happy with that, there are processes to follow, but for now, we have to accept how the Ministers and the Deputy Ministers answer the questions in the House.

I am not prepared to argue, hon members.

Over to you, hon Macpherson.


Mr D W MACPHERSON: Chair, I would like to rise on Rule 138(3) which says, Minister may authorise his or her Deputy to reply to the question, and I assume that is was done in the case of the Deputy Minister, but it also says that, they must be able UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 86 to respond competently to any permissible supplementary questions that might be asked.
Now, I put it to you, Chair, that the Deputy Minister is not competent to be able to reply to these questions if she is simply saying, I don’t know the answer, go and ask somebody else.

So, I would like you to rule on the competence of the Deputy Minister to answer the question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Macpherson, ... [Interjections.

... order, hon members.

Hon Macpherson, hon members, may I advise that, please, let us not use words that will cause tension in the House.
It’s not necessary.

...

[Interjections.]

... We are ceased with very important issues, so, let us not allow a situation where the House goes out of order, into chaos unnecessarily; let us not use words of awkward nature, hon Macpherson.

It might be the rules, as you understand it, but I have already made my input on that.

Hon Radebe, I see that you have raised your hand.

Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you, Chairperson.


I think that, if the member has got any complaint about what the Deputy Minister has answered to, he has a place to go to, which is known as the Rule Committee where he can raise that issue there, even UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 87 if he contends your ruling, he can also go to this committee to raise that.

But we cannot have a debate on the floor.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member.
Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Gwarube, I have ruled on the matter.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: It’s Mkhaliphi.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I have ruled on the matter.

I wouldn’t like to entertain an argument between ourselves.

I have ruled on the matter.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): No, you are not allowed.

Thank you.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chairperson.


UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 88 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The second supplementary question ...

[Interjections.]

... Do I hear another person?

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Chief Whip.

Are you rising, hon Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAHORITY PARTY: No.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Oh, hon Mkhaliphi.

Over to you, hon member.


Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Yes, Chair.

Do you hear me?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I can hear you.

Go ahead.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: You have ruled correctly on the matter.

So, why is hon Radebe repeating what you have said?

It is my concern.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 89 The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Mkhaliphi ...

[Interjections.]

... Mr B A RADEBE: She just wants attention that one.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Shall we continue, hon members.

Shall we go ahead, please?

Ms M T KIBI: Thank you, hon Chair, and thank you, hon Deputy Minister.

IsiXhosa: Andinawo umbuzo, uyitye yonke.

Enkosi.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon member.

The third supplementary question will be asked by hon Sithole.

Order, hon members.

Over to you, hon Sithole.

Mr K P SITHOLE: Thank you, Chairperson.


Hon Deputy Minister, in relation to the fraudulent of R350 grant application and payment, please provide details of the new security mechanism that has been introduced to prevent such fraud from happening again.

If fraud mechanism has not been introduced, tell us why UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 90 they have not been introduced, and what is the way forward.

Thank you very much.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you, hon Sithole.

Hon Deputy Minister ... IsiZulu: ... umangabe umbuzo uwuzwile.

English: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, House Chair, it was a bit little difficult to hear what the hon member was actually saying.
But briefly, I could actually pick up that he is worried about the way forward, whether are we still going to find ourselves in a situation where people successfully or fraudulently manage to access grants, a situation I would actually say that we are confident that, because on an ongoing basis, we keep on improving our systems, such a thing will actually be prevented.

Thank you.

Ms C C S MOTSEPE: Thank you very much, hon House Chair.

Deputy Minister, it is not only the matter of social grants.
Many public servants are owning businesses and are getting contracts from the state.

This paints a picture of a state UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 91 that has no idea of what their public servants are doing, or a state that simply does not care about the corruption in the public service.

Why have you failed to monitor and be able to assist and eradicate corrupt activities of public servants who engage in corrupt activities?

Thank you very much, hon House Chair.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, hon House Chairperson, I have actually indicated earlier that, we are steadfast as a government in fighting corruption, ...

[Interjections.]

... yes, of course, and measures continue to be strengthened, to be put in place to ensure that we fight corruption.
I have also indicated of the number of systems that have actually been put in place to fight corruption including what we call, Technical Assistance Unit, TAU, which is the technical, integrity, disciplinary task team that is supposed to have to help us monitor corruption, across government, that is supposed to help us to make interventions where there is corruption.
Also, that is why we now have what we call ethical offices that TAU will be working with across government, that will help in every government department, to manage to identify where there is wrongdoing and to put measures in place to UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 92 ensure that action and decisive action will be taken to deal with any public servant that is doing something that is wrong, so that we shouldn’t continue to just come with allegations that are not substantiate and just accuse in general public servants and remember, when we talk about public servants, we talk about people who are taking care of the people of South Africa, and we need to be careful about how we talk about them.
These are the people who wake up every morning to go and deliver services across government for South Africans, for the lives of the South Africans to be improved and lives of the South Africans to be developed.

That is why therefore, fairness means, when we talk about public servants, and we know that, from amongst public servant’s officials, there are those that are doing wrong things, but we shouldn’t paint them with the same brush.

Thank you, hon House Chairperson.


Question 172: The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, the question is about the total amount that is paid by metropolitan councils, paying the outsourcing of security guards per annum.

We have been able to get figures from five metros, that is the City of Cape Town Metropolitan UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 93 Municipality which in 2020-21 paid R1,21 4 billion.
The Buffalo City Metropolitan Municipality, R13,6 million.

Mangaung Metropolitan Municipality, R92,9 million.

EThekwini Metropolitan Municipality, 1,056 billion.

Nelson Mandela Bay Metropolitan Municipality, R2,62 million.

These we have been able to verify with the cities themselves.
When we looked into the annual financial reports, the City of Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality is R447,3 million and the City of Johannesburg Metropolitan Municipality is R43,5 million, but as I say, until now we’re still waiting for them to verify the figures.

In Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality, we couldn’t find the figures.

They say that, they do not disaggregate the security, they put it under contracted services.

So, they are still going to disaggregate it for us.
So, we don't so we don’t have any figure for Tshwane.

Point B wants to know what would the difference be in cost if the security guards were insourced.

We did ask this question from the municipalities which are of course responsible for doing that.

We have not got responses from all of them.

I will just talk about those that have already given us the responses.
Buffalo City Metropolitan Municipality says that, UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 94 one permanently employed security guard costs the metro R274 032 per annum.

Then they say, they cannot compare that with outsourced security guards, because the outsourced security guards come with their own arms and they also come with an armed backup response.

Therefore, they cannot compare them.

It would be like not comparing apples to apples but comparing apples to something else.
That is the answer they have given us.

Mangaung Metropolitan Municipality says that within the timelines provided, it was not possible to provide complete and accurate figures.

However, based on an assessment of average cost per security guard, as they estimate there, to insource the security guards would be 20% more than their current cost and in figures, it would be about R18,7 million that they would have to pay more if they were insourcing.
EThekwini Metropolitan Municipality gave us this response and the municipality did not calculate the costs for insourcing services.

However, they are anticipating that the costs will be double due to the shift system.

The City of Cape Town Metropolitan Municipality said it is not in a position to respond to the question, as it has not done an analysis to compare outsourcing and insourcing.
Nelson Mandela Bay UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 95 Metropolitan Municipality has already insourced almost all the security guards that previously guarded its assets, when they were employed by private contractors.

The municipality has not outsourced any security guarding to outside companies.

[Time Expired] Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Hon Chair, I will assist on behalf of hon Matumba.
Minister under the previous administration of the City of Johannesburg Metropolitan Municipality led by Herman Mashaba assisted by the EFF, insourced security guards actually saved a lot of money that ordinarily went to labour brokers.

Labour brokers constitute to one of the biggest costs to municipalities for rendering services that municipalities themselves can perform if they employ people directly.
Why has the government resisted calls for the eradication of labour broking in order to employ people directly?

What does the government benefit from labour brokers other that the kickbacks given to senior officials?

Thank you very much Minister.

The MINISTER OF COORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: I cannot really answer on the kickbacks given to officials because I don’t have evidence of that.

I cannot UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 96 respond to that.
I’ve not come across the officials who are getting kickbacks from labour brokers.

Thank you.

Mr F D XASA: Hon Chair, I hope I am visible now.

Hon Minister, according to a report compiled by the City of Johannesburg’s Group Forensics and Investigation Services, the project to insource security and cleaning services that was implemented by the DA led by Mr Mashaba as was indicated by the previous member.
They got a report that indicated that, the services after insourcing cost them R1,2 billion instead of a projected R557 million due to irregularities and poor oversight.

Is the Minister aware of this report?

What steps are being taken to hold those responsible accountable?

Thank you very much Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF CO-ORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, I will follow up on that matter and I will come back and give a report to the Minister because I have not ...
[Interjections.]

I’ve not ...

[Interjections.]

Sorry I was ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister you can go ahead.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 97 The MINISTER OF CO-ORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, I was just saying, I will follow up on that ...[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order hon members!

Order!
Order!

The MINISTER OF CO-ORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: I will follow up on that question and bring a full answer to the hon member Xasa.

Thank you.

Mr C BRINK: Minister I join this meeting from Msunduzi Local Municipality in Kwazulu-Natal, where the municipality doesn’t have many security guards either insourced or otherwise.

In fact, the municipality hardly has qualified personnel to attend to basic services.

Residents suffer the power and water outages for days on end.
This is a municipality under provincial administration.

You know, I’ve written to you about this case.

Can the Minister please agree to dispatch civil and electrical engineers from the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency to at least assist Msunduzi and the community to stabilise the service ... [Inaudible] ... municipality.

Thank you.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 98 The MINISTER OF COORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon Brink.
I will indeed speak to Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, Misa and see if they can do that.

We are also assisting Msunduzi by taking some of the Community Work Programme, CWP training them through the sector education and training authority, Setas to try and look at maintaining and closing boreholes and cleaning the city.

I will do that with Mr Brik, I will talk to me Misa.

Thank you Ms M D HLENGWA: Hon Chair, I think hon Zondo has a bad network connection.

Let me take his question.


Hon Minister, with regards to the insourcing of security guards which has shown to be more cost effective in metropolitan municipalities such as eThekwini.

Will your departmental policy in this regard also be favouring unemployed members of defence and military veterans, who have the required skills but currently find themselves unemployed?

I thank you.

The MINISTER OF COORPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much hon member.
Even though that is an idea that is good and I agree with, we don’t have the authority prescribe to the municipalities and metros how to carry on their employment.

But, as an idea it is something UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 99 that you can discuss but we have no authority to enforce it.

Thank you.
Thank you.

Question 151: The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, you were not here earlier on when I indicated that the Minister is in a really serious discussion in New York as I am answering the questions for her here.

The process of institutionalising the National Strategic Plan, NSP, on gender-based violence, GBV, started during 2020-21 financial year.

This has enabled the department to gradually monitor and enforce accountability and compliance with reporting by departments.
I want to say that the Minister really does that.

Any Cabinet Minister can tell you that she watches for this because she wants to make sure that the institutionalisation of this National Strategic Plan happens, not for us, but for the women of South Africa.
I want to add that this is something that needs a buy in from both political and administration, and I can tell you that the ANC has the political will to make sure that this is implemented and the administrative will is also happening but UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 100 we will need to try and strengthen it so that the National Strategic Plan is properly institutionalised.
Currently, we have an average of 25 departments consistently reporting on a monthly basis to the Presidency.

The department has undertaken sensitisation and capacity building sessions to ensure the integration of the National Strategic Plan on gender-based violence and femicide within institutional plans and budgets at national, provincial district and local municipalities.
As you are all aware, we have the District Development Model and we are hoping that through this new model we are going to be able to ensure that this is enforced.

On a regular basis, the department assesses the integration of the National Strategic Plan priorities into the departmental plans and integrated developmental plans.
In the financial year 2021-22 the department assessed draft departmental plans to ensure integration of priorities and this is a very difficult task, even for us as Ministers, because we have to go through all the documents to make sure that all the annual plans are aligned.
To increase reach, the department, through support from the European Union, EU, is in the process of appointing technical UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 101 monitors and data captures in three pilot provinces, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape.

Currently, the department is leading in the establishment of multisectoral rapid response teams at local levels and will co-ordinate the plans in responses.
Four provinces have finalised their National Strategic Plans on GBV implementation plans.

These are Western Cape, Gauteng, Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal.

The five remaining provinces, Northern Cape, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Free State and North West have started working on their implementation plans but have not yet completed.

The process has been very intensive requiring provinces to adequately customise their strategic plans on GBV.
In provinces that currently do not have aligned provincial GBV National Strategic Plans the department continuously organises information sessions to localise National Strategic Plan and support the establishment of rapid response teams.

Yesterday, fortunately I was also in this meeting, we had an opportunity to engage with the Department of Youth, Women and Persons with Disabilities portfolio committee on the national council GBVF Bill for establishment of the council.
A number UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 102 of issues were raised in the portfolio committee which we will be addressing to fast-track the implementation of the NSP on GBVF targets to ensure maximum impact.

I thank you.

Tshivenḓa: Vho C M PHIRI: Mudzulatsidulo, kha vha ntendele ndi loshe heyi Nnḓu, ndi loshe vhaṱhoniphei, ndi tshi ri kha mufareli vho mme Lindiwe Zulu vha ḓo mpfarela.

Arali vha si khou pfa kha vha ambare vhudzaipfi uri vha kone u ḓologeliwa zwavhuḓi.
Mudzulatshidulo, Minisiṱa ... English: ... my part is that if you can’t understand Tshivenda you must put on your earpiece.

I will continue in Tshivenda with translation.


Tshivenḓa: Mudzulatshidulo, ngauri vhuḓifhindleli ha u vhona uri mbekanyamushumo dza tshumelo ndi dza muhasho honeha muhasho u ḓo ita mini kana u ḓo dzhia maga afhio a uri u sa shuma zwavhuḓi kha u konyana mbekanyamushumo dza u tambudzwa ha vhafumakadzi na vhana zwi si dovholole kana zwi si bvele UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 103 phanḓa uri zwi si shume zwavhuḓi muhasho wavho u ḓo ita mini?

Ndo livhuwa.
Ndo livhuwa.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, may I rise on a point of order.

I am sure you are aware there was no translation in the Chamber.

Ms C M PHIRI: I can give you a translation.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Phiri, you still have some time.

Can you please do it.

[Interjections.]

Can I check with the hon Minister?

Hon Minister, are you at home?

IsiZulu: UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Hhayi, ngimuzwe kahle.

[Uhleko.]

Ngizwe kahle, Sihlalo.


English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): The reason why I am asking ...

[Interjections.]

IsiZulu: UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Indaba wukuthi sonke sila eNingizimu Afrika kuyafuneka ukuthi sizame ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 104 English: ... by all means ... IsiZulu: ... sifunde izilimi zethu.

Angikwazi ukuthi ngingakhuluma isiRashiya kodwa ngingamuzwa yena.

Ayisebenzi kanjalo.
Ayisebenzi kanjalo.

Angikwazi ukukhuluma isi-French, nesiPutukezi nakho konke bese ngibuye ngingamuzwa yena.

Kodwake, Sihlalo, kuyenzeka ngesinye isikhathi umuntu uma ekhuluma okunye kuyakulahlekela kodwa ngaphandle kwalokho, sihlelekile ngapha kwa-ANC.

Lingitshelile ilungu ukuthi uyabon-ke namhlanje ngizokushaya ngolimi lami ngizofuna ukuthi ungizwe ngithini ngakhoke ngiyaphendula manje, Sihlalo.
Ngixolise nje ukuthi angeke ngikwazi ukumphendula ngolimi lakhe ngoba ngizovela ngikwitizise bese kuba kubi.

Angibuyele kulesi Singisi sami.

Angifune kukwitizisa.

English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Minister, I think it will help if you can maybe give your answer in English ...

[Interjections.]

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 105 The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Yes, I will give it in English.
IsiZulu: USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): ... kuzokwazi ukusisiza ngoba nami la ngihleli khona ngizwe nje ekhuluma nge-load shedding angazi utheni.

[Uhleko.]

English: The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I will wait ... IsiZulu: ... ngoba wena awuzwanga uzwe u-load shedding kodwa mina ngizwe umbuzo ngakhoke ngizolinda.

English: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Swart, I am sure you will be taken care off.

Your English will be taken care of.

Hon Minister?


IsiZulu: UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Kuyofuneka ukuthi kube namaklasi, omunye ngapha uthi yena uzwe ihashi kodwa mina UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 106 angizwanga ihashi, Sihlalo.

Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo, ngingaqinisekisa ukuthi ... English: ... work is underway to strengthen the co-ordination of a multisectoral national response.
IsiZulu: Futhi ngisho nje, Sihlalo ... Setswana: Ke a tshepa gore le ena wa nkutlwa fa ke bua IsiZulu.

Wa nkutlwa?

Ga o utlwe IsiZulu?

Wa bona yaanong wa nswabisa.

Wa se utlwa?

Nnya, ba seke ba go arabela.


English: So, in order to address some of the weaknesses that we identified in the inaugural review of the implementation of the NSP, the department is fast tracking the establishment of structures at provincial local level such as provincial directors general forum, the rapid response teams and the placement of monitoring and evaluation experts in premier offices in three provinces, namely, Eastern Cape, KwaZulu- Natal and Gauteng.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 107 We move from the premise that protection and safety of women and girls can be achieved only through co-ordinated collective and sustained action.

We also have a bit of history in this one from a position of how do we co-ordinate it and how do we institutionalise it.

It is 27 years now and since we started it has been very hard.
At some point, offices and structures that were related to gender-based violence were usually in the premier’s office and they will not get attention but get shifted to another.

I think the fact that we have this department in particular it gives it a chance, not only to monitor, but also to make sure that those that are following up on the issues of gender-based violence they themselves are assisted in understanding what is this scourge that we are talking about.

Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair.

Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson, to the Minister, we have repeatedly asked you to specify what collaborative efforts you have undertaken with the police and the Department of Home Affairs in order to fight against gender-based violence.

We have not received any answer except for the paper it is written on.

Every quarter in this country over 10 000 women are raped.

What have you done in collaboration with the police to ensure that all rape of South African women stops?

Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair.

UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 108 The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I would agree with the member in terms of ensuring that whatever we do must not end up written on paper, it has to be something that is practically implemented and also see the impact of it by the reduction of the number of women and children that are abused and killed.
I can assure you, hon member, that between my Ministry, which is the Ministry of Social Development, the Minister of Police, Minister Bheki Cele, and of course the Department of Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities, we do have co-ordinated plans practically.

Even this morning the Minister of Police, Minister Bheki Cele, was presenting to us the co-ordinated plan.
It is one thing to have these things that government is planning to do and the police doing the best that they can to catch the perpetrators and all that, the whole issue of gender-based violence in South Africa is about behavioural change.

Behavioural change is not something that can be enforced only by us political people, it is a responsibility of every member of society.
UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 109 In the South African context, the painful part of it is that it looks like the only women who are being beaten are only black women.

Let me tell you, this issue is an issue of all women across the board whether you are white or whatever, whether you are EFF or IFP it doesn’t matter.
Violence against women gets into homes and therefore this is one issue that we should, by all means, avoid politicising and just work together as a nation and say, how do we end this scourge that is making us look like monsters to the world.

Thank you.

Ms M D HLENGWA: House Chairperson, to the hon Minister, this challenge appears to be one that is cross cutting all sectors, both public and private.
What are you specifically doing to enhance and promote gender awareness in work places and conducive empowerment environment for women in general?

And what challenges are you facing in this regard?

I thank you.

IsiZulu: UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMPHAKATHI: Ngibonga kakhulu ...

[Ubuwelewele.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Order, hon members!

IsiZulu: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 110 Malandela!

[Ubuwelewele.]

English: Order, hon members!


IsiZulu: Kahleni!

Kahleni!

Malungu ahloniphekile, hhayibo.

English: The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I am not sure if you were hearing what the hon member is saying, but ...

[Interjections.]

IsiZulu: ... awumzwanga, makazikhulumele.

Ms M D HLENGWA: House Chairperson, I do not know whether the member is referring to me when he says ...

I don’t know what is banana or wanana, what is the meaning of that and what ...

[Interjections.]
[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon member ... UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 111 Ms M D HLENGWA: I am a small girl?

Do you think I am a girl?

I am a grandmother at home.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon Hlengwa ...

[Interjections.]

Ms M D HLENGWA: No, I need an apology.

I need an apology on this one because it is a disgrace to me, even to my children at home.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, please.

Is it hon McGluwa?

Hon McGluwa, did you say that?

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Hon Chair, I referred to the former Minister, Manana.

I mentioned his name because one of the questions was relevant to the former Minister Manana.

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Hon members, I honestly did not hear what he said, but this will be followed up and I will respond.

IsiZulu: Ngicela siqhubeke.


English: UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 112 Ms M D HLENGWA: House Chairperson, I will report this to my Chief Whip because this is an insult to me.

Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): I will make a follow up on that, Mama uHlengwa.

I will definitely make a follow up.

Hon Minister?


The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, Chairperson ... IsiZulu: ... ngiyasaba ukuyingena le ngoba uma ngingayingena mina kungaketuka amatafula.

Cha, angizoyingena.

Ngiyabonga kakhulu mama ngombuzo wakho futhi umbuzo wakho ... English: ... really hits the nail on the head.

As I said earlier on that it is important for us to deal with this scourge across the board.
Yours is particularly talking about the fact that it is a cross cutting issue and I fully agree.
It is also an issue that sometimes is hidden in the workplace, and therefore, as a department, not only the Department of Women but government in general, we have been calling — of course we know that there are organisations like COSATU and the rest of UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 113 them who fight for the rights of workers and they never lose sight of bringing on to the table the issue of gender-based violence and femicide — The challenges that we face are acceptance by the employer accepting the fact that it is their responsibility to make sure that even within their employment contracts and everything the issue of gender-based violence is something that is reflected there.
It is also about accountability, and unfortunately in many instances, workers who are not protected, when they go and report it ends up there in the boardrooms.

So, it is important for workers to ensure that even if they do not belong to a union, they know their right and know where they must go to when the issues arise.
It starts in the private sector — because you are talking about the private sector — it is about the private sector creating a conducive environment for women or any other person who is being abused, but in the main it is women that are abused, to be able to go somewhere and report and make sure that action is taken.

Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair.

Mr S N SWART: House Chair, to the Minister, at the end of January this year the President referred to a number of important amendment Bills to strengthen the fight against UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 114 gender-based violence.

These are the Criminal Law Sexual Offenses Amendment Bill, the Criminal Related Matters Bill and the Domestic Violence Bill.
They cover a wide range of issues; they are victim cantered and are aimed at protecting the vulnerable.

I am sure you are also aware of these Bills in terms of being the Minister of Social Development.

Rising from your response in the acting Minister capacity, to what degree are the departments, and of course it is incumbent on all of us, spreading the message about these very important Bills so that the public is aware of these important amendments?
For example, with the Domestic Violence Bill, one can now apply online for orders for protection.

I think it is very key that the public are informed about these far-reaching Bills which we support.

We all need to accept responsibility, and I appreciate the fact that you emphasise behavioural change and that it affects everyone in society and previously you have also referred to the importance of family in this regard.

Thank you.
Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much hon member for that follow up question.

Yes, I think we have to do much more in terms of making the public aware and we also need to do much more to strengthen the families because as UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 115 government we believe that we have to do something in supporting the families.
It is for that reason that the Department of Social Development is responsible for mobilising, supporting and advocating even amongst those organisations that are based in communities.

It is also about ensuring that where there is a broader reach like faith-based organisations and religious organisations who have people coming to their churches every Sunday, these are the platforms where such Bills must be explained to the people.
We have radio stations, from the SABC including your community radio stations, these are the stations we have to use.

I think the last one for me which is very important is the work that is being done by Parliamentarians in their oversight and holding us accountable as the executive.

I believe that every time you go to your constituencies you must not lose sight of this programme of gender-based violence and you must continue to hold us accountable in terms of the finances that we are spending here.
Hon Swart, when I look at how much money we are spending on non profit organisations which are supposed to be doing this work, we spend R8,2 billion per year.

That money comes to us but we take it to the different NPOs and UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 116 NGOs and I personally believe that those NGOs must not necessarily be an extension of government but they are given resources by this government to make sure that they render those services.
We have guidelines as to how they can get the funds and what they must do with the funds.

Where I think there is a weakness it is in the monitoring and evaluation because if they were doing their work, the impact would be felt in the different communities.

So, I do believe that your question is also like a message to us that do better than you are doing in terms of making sure that people are aware of the good work.
We develop the policies, we sit long hours doing that, it comes to Parliament to the portfolio committees, you spend so much time going through it and once it is adopted it must not be something that is folded and put away.

We must strengthen our institutions so that communities know that they have institutional recourse.

It is one thing to have a policy nicely written, it is another for people to feel that the institutions are not adequately responding to them.

Thank you very much.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Thank you very much, hon Minister.

Hon members, as already stated, the remarks attributed to hon McGluwa, which clearly caused UNREVISED HANSARD NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WEDNESDAY, 16 MARCH 2022 Page: 117 offense to hon Hlengwa, were not clearly heard by myself the chair, we will refer to Hansard to check if the remarks were recorded.
In instances where the remark is not captured, we rely on the integrity of members to state clearly what was said when called upon to do so by the Chair.

I will therefore revert to Hansard.

Thank you, hon members.

Mr J J MCGLUWA: Chairperson, may is rise and ask the hon member to forgive me, and I apologise.

I have never, for the past 12 years that I am a Member of Parliament, offended anyone in this House.

I would like for her to take my word that I said Manana.
The hon member’s follow up question referred to gender-based violence.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L D Ntombela): Okay, thank you, hon McGluwa, I will take that to the Table.

Hon members, the time allocated for Questions has expired.

Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.

The House adjourned at 18:05.