Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698750530237.pdf (Malaysia)
Jilid IV No.
17 Khamis 16hb November, 1967 PERBAHATHAN PARLIMEN DEWAN RA'AYAT YANG KEDUA PENGGAL KEEMPAT PENYATA RASMI KANDONGAN JAWAPAN2 MULUT BAGI PERTANYAAN2 [Ruangan 3045] RANG UNDANGl: The Education (Amendment) Bill [Ruangan 3074] Rang Undang2 Pertarohan Pool [Ruangan 3078] The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill [Ruangan 3145] USUL: Persidangan Majlis Meshuarat di·lanjutkan dan Penang gohan pada satu masa yang tidak di-tetapkan [Ruangan 3104] Menanam wang sa-bagai modal dalam Sports Pool (Malaysia) Sendirian Berhad oleh Kerajaan [Ruangan 3142) UCHAPAN PENANGGOHAN: Agriculture-Diversification of Crops [Ruangan 3178] Establishment of Industrial Arbitration Courts [Ruangan 3185] DI·CHETAK DI·JABATAN CHETAK KERAJAAN OLEH THOR DENG CHONG, A.M.N., PENCHETAK KERAJAAN KUALA LUMPUR 1968 MALAYSIA DEWAN RA'AYAT YANG KEDUA PENGGAL YANG KEEMPAT Penyata Rasmi Hari Kham.is, 16hb November, 1967 Persidangan bermula pada pukul JO pagi YANG HADHIR: Yang Berhormat Yang di-Pertua, DATO' CHIK MOHAMED YusuF BIN SHEIKH ABDUL RAHMAN, s.P.M.P., J.P., Dato' Bendahara, Perak.
Perdana Menteri dan Menteri Hal Ehwal Luar Negeri, Y.T.M.

TUNKU ABDUL RAHMAN PUTRA AL-HAJ, K.O.M.

(Kuala Kedah).

Timbalan Perdana Menteri, Menteri Pertahanan, Menteri Hal Ehwal Dalam Negeri dan Menteri Pembangunan Negara dan Luar Bandar, TUN HAJI ABDUL RAZAK BIN DATO' HUSSAIN, S.M.N.

(Pekan).

Menteri Kerja Raya, Pos dan Talikom, TUN v. T. SAMBANTHAN, S.S.M., P.M.N.

(Sungai Siput).

Menteri Pengangkutan, TAN SRI HAJ1 SARDON BIN HAii JUBIR, P.M.N.

(Pontian Utara).
(Pontian Utara).

Menteri Pelajaran, TUAN MOHAMED KHIR JOHARI (Kedah Tengah).

Menteri Kesihatan, TUAN BAHAMAN BIN SAMSUDIN (Kuala Pilah).

Menteri Perdagangan dan Perusahaan, DR LIM SWEE AUN, J.P. (Larut Selatan).

Menteri Kebajikan 'Am, TUAN HAJI ABDUL HAMID KHAN BIN HAJI SAKHAWAT ALI KHAN, J.M.N., J.P. (Batang Padang).

Menteri Kerajaan Tempatan dan Perumahan, TUAN KHAW KAI-BOH, P.J.K.

(Ulu Selangor).

Menteri Hal Ehwal Sarawak, TAN SRI TEMENGGONG JUGAH ANAK BARIENG, P.M.N., P.D.K.

(Sarawak).
(Sarawak).

Menteri Buroh, TUAN V. MANICKAVASAGAM, J.M.N., P.J.K.

(Klang).

Menteri Penerangan dan Penyiaran dan Menteri Kebudayaan, Belia dan Sokan, TUAN SENU BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Kubang Pasu Barat).

Menteri Hal Ehwal Tanah dan Galian dan Menteri Ke'adilan, DATO' HAJI ABDUL-RAHMAN BIN YA'KUB (Sarawak).

Menteri Muda Pembangunan Negara dan Luar Bandar, TUAN SULAIMAN BIN BuLON, P.J.K.

(Bagan Datoh).

Menteri Muda Kebudayaan, Belia dan Sokan, ENGKU MUHSEIN BIN ABDUL KADIR, J.M.N., S.M.T., P.J.K.
(Trengganu Tengah).

3041 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3042 Yang Berhormat TAN SRI FATIMAH BINTI HAJI HASHIM, P.M.N.

(Jitra-Padang Terap).

TUAN s. FAZUL RAHMAN, A.D.K.

(Sabah).

TuAN GEH CHONG KEAT, K.M.N.

(Pulau Pinang Utara).

TUAN HAJI HAMZAH BIN ALANG, A.M.N., P.J.K.

(Kapar).

TUAN HANAFI BIN MOHD.

YUNUS, A.M.N., J.P. (Kulim Utara).

TUAN HANAFIAH BIN HUSSAIN, A.M.N.

(Jerai).

TUAN HARUN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N., J.P. (Baling).

WAN HASSAN BIN WAN DAUD (Tumpat).

TUAN STANLEY Ho NGUN KHIU, A.D.K.

(Sabah).


DATO' HAJI HUSSEIN BIN MoHD.

NOORDIN, D.P.M.P., A.M.N., P.J.K.

(Parit).

TUAN HUSSEIN BIN SULAIMAN (Ulu Kelantan).

TUAN HAJI HUSSAIN RAHIMI BIN HAJJ SAMAN, S.M.K., J.P. (Kota Bharu Hulu).

TUAN IKHWAN ZAINI, K.M.N.

(Sarawak).

TUN DR ISMAIL BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, s.s.M., P.M.N.

(Jobor Timar).

TUAN ISMAIL BIN IDRIS (Pulau Pinang Selatan).

PENGHULU JINGGUT ANAK ATTAN, K.M.N., Q.M.C., A.B.S.

(Sarawak).

TUAN KADAM ANAK KIAi (Sarawak).


TUAN KAM WOON WAH, J.P. (Sitiawan).

TUAN KHOO PENG LOONG (Sarawak).

TUAN LEE SECK.

FUN, K.M.N.

(Tanjong Malim).

DATO' LING :BEN6 SIEW, P.N.B.S.

(Sarawak).

DR LIM CHONG Eu (Tanjong).

TUAN LIM KEAN SIEW (Dato Kramat).

TUAN LIM PEE HUNG, P.J.K.

(Alor Star).

DR MAHATHIR BIN MOHAMAD (Kota Star Selatan).

TUAN T. MAHIMA SINGH, J.M.N., J.P. (Port Dickson\ DATO' DR HAJI MEGAT KHAS.

D.P.M.P., J.P., P.J.K.

(Kuala Kangsar).

TUAN MOHD.

ARIF SALLEH, A.D.K.


(Sabah).

TUAN MOHD.

DAUD BIN ABDUL SAMAD (Besut).

TUAN MOHAMED IDRIS BIN MATSIL, J.M.N., P.J.K., J;P. (J elebu-J empol).

TUAN MOHD.

TAHIR BIN ABDUL MAJID, S.M.S., P.J.K.

(Kuala Langat).

TUAN HAn MOHAMED YusoF BIN MAHMUD, A.M.N.

(Temerloh).

TUAN MOHD.

ZAHIR BIN HAJI ISMAIL, J.M.N.

(Sungai Patani).

WAN MOKHTAR BIN AHMAD (Kemaman).

TUAN HAJI MOKHTAR BIN HAJI ISMAIL (Perlis Selatan).

TUAN MUHAMMAD FAKHRUDDIN BIN HAJI.

ABDULLAH (Pasir Mas Hilir).


TuAN HAJI MUHAMMAD Su'AUT BIN HAJJ MuHD.

TAHIR, A.is.

(Sarawak).

3043 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3044 .. " Yang Berhormat DATO' HAJJ MUSTAPHA BIN HAJI ABDUL JABAR, D.P.M.S., A.M.N., .- J.P. (Sabak Bernam).

TUAN MUSTAPHA BIN AHMAD (Tanah Merah).

TAN SRI NIK AHMAD KAMIL, D.K., S.P.M.K., S.J.M.K., P.M.N., P.Y.G.P., Dato' Sri Setia Raja (Kota Bharu Hilir).

TUAN No FAH YAM (Batu Gajah).

TUAN ONG KEE HUI (Sarawak).

TUAN HAJI OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH (Hilir Perak).


TUAN OrnMAN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N.

(Perlis Utara).

TUAN QUEK KAI DoNG, J.P. (Seremban Timor).

TUAN HAJI RAHMAT BIN HAIT DAUD, A.M.N.

(Johor Bahru Barat).

TUAN RAMLI BIN OMAR (Krian Darat).

TUAN HAJJ REDZA BIN HAJI MOHD.

SAID, P.J.K., J.P. (Rembau-Tampin ).

RAJA ROME BIN RAJA MA'AMOR, P.J.K., J.P. (Kuala Selangor).

TuAN SANDOM ANAK NYUAK (Sarawak).

TuAN SEAH TENG NGIAB, S.M.J., P.I.S.

(Muar Pantai).

TUAN D. R. SEENIVASAGAM (lpoh).


TuAN SIM BooN LIANG, A.B.s.

(Sarawak).

TUAN Smw LOONG HIN, P.J.K.

(Seremban Barat).

TUAN SENAWI BIN ISMAIL, P.J.K.

(Seberang Selatan).

TUAN SNG CHIN Joo (Sarawak).

TUAN SOH AH TECK (Batu Pabat).

TUAN SULEIMAN BIN Au (Dungun).

TUAN SULEIMAN BIN HAn T Am (Krian Laut).

TUAN TAJUDIN BIN ALI, P.J.K.

(Larut Utara).

TUAN TAI KUAN YANG, A.M.N.

(Kulim Bandar Bharu).

TUAN TAMA WENG TINGGANG w AN (Sarawak).

DR TAN CHEE KHOON (Batu).


TUAN TAN TOH HONG (Bukit Bin tang).

TUAN TAN TSAK Yu (Sarawak).

TUAN TIAH ENG BEE (Kluang Utara).

TUAN TOH THEAM HOCK (Kampar).

TENGKU ZAID BIN TENGKU AHMAD (Pasir Mas Hulu).

TUAN HAJJ ZAKARIA BIN HAJJ MOHD.

TAIB, P.J.K.

(Langat).

Yang Berhormat Menteri Kewangan, TUN TAN SIEW SIN, S.S.M., J.P. YANG TIADA HADHIR: (Melaka Tengah).

Menteri Pertanian dan Sharikat Kerjasama, TUAN HAJI MOHAMED GHAZAL!

BIN HAJI JAWI (Ulu Perak).


Menteri Muda Ta' Berjabatan, TUAN HAJI ABDUL KHALID BIN AWANG OSMAN (Kota Star Utara).

Menteri Muda Pelajaran, TUAN LEE SIOK YEW, A.M.N., P.J.K.

(Sepang).

3045 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3046 Yang Berhormat TUAN ABDUL RAHMAN BIN HAJJ TALIB, P.J.K.

(Kuantan).

,, .. .. TUAN HAJI ABU BAKAR BIN HAMZAH, J.P. (Bachok).

0.K.K.

DATU ALIUDDIN BIN DATU HARUN, P.D.K.

(Sabah).

DR AWANG BIN HASSAN, S.M.J.

(Muar Selatan).

DATO' GANIE GILONG, P.D.K., J.P. (Sabah).


TuAN GANING BIN JANGKAT (Sabah) .

TAN SRI SYED JA'AFAR BIN HASAN ALDAR, P.M.N.

(Johor Tenggara).

TUAN THOMAS KANA, K.M.N.

(Sarawak).

TUAN EDMUND LANGGU ANAK SAGA (Sarawak).

TUAN AMADEUS MATHEW LEONG, A.D.K., J.P. (Sabah).

TUAN PETER Lo Su YIN (Sabah) .

TuAN C. JoHN ONDu MAJAKIL (Sabah).

TUAN JOSEPH DAVID MANJAJI (Sabah).

DATO' HAJI MOHAMED ASRI BIN HAJJ MUDA, S.P.M.K.

(Pasir Puteh).

ORANG TUA MOHAMMAD DARA BIN LANGPAD (Sabah).


TUN MuSTAPHA BIN DATU HARUN, S.M.N., P.D.K.

(Sabah).

DATO' s. P. SEENIVASAGAM, D.P.M.P., P.M.P., J.P. (Menglembu).

PENGIRAN TAHIR PETRA (Sa bah).

TUAN TAN CHENG BEE, A.M.N., J.P. (Bagan).

TUAN TAN KEE GAK (Bandar Melaka).

TUAN YEH PAO TzE.

A.M.N.

(Sabah).

TUAN STEPHEN YONG KuET TzE (Sarawak).


DO'A (PRAYERS) fuan Yang di-Pertua mempengerusikan meshuarat (Mr Speaker in the Chair) JAWAPAN2 MULUT BAGI PERTANYAAN2 LIMIT OF EXPENDITURE OF A CANDIDATE IN STATE OR PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION 1.

'Iuan Kadam anak Kiai (Sarawak) [under S.O.


24 (2)] (dengan izin) asks the Prime Minister to state whether there in rule Malaysia to limit the amount of money for campaigning for any candidate for the State or Parliamentary election as being practised in England and New Zealand.

introduced any is Timbalan Perdana Menteri (Tun Haji Abdul Razak): Tuan Yang di Pertua.

saya memohon izin hendak Inggeris.


berchakap dalam bahasa There is already such a rule introduced to limit the amount of money for campaigning for any candidate for either State or Parliamentary election.

It is provided by Sections 18 and 19 of the Election Offences Ordinance, 1954, as applicable at the moment to West Malaysia and Sabah and will be to applicable Sarawak-Sections 18 and 19 of the Election Offences Ordinance, 1954. the near future in KEGUNAAN KAPAV LAUT YANG DI-BERi OLER KERAJAAN JEPUN 2.
Tuan Haji Mokhtar bin Haji Ismail minta kapada Perdana Menteri terang kan untok guna apa-kah yang telah di-buat kapada kedua2 buah kapal laut yang di-beri oleh Kerajaan Jepun 3047 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3048 kapada Malaysia, sa-bagai menyelesai kan hutang darah itu, clan apa-kah nama yang di-beri kapada kedua2 buah kapal itu.
tahun Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dua buah kapal yang Kera jaan Malaysia akan terima daripada Kerajaan Jepun sa-bagai keputusan kapada Perjanjian Muhibbah yang telah di-tandatangani dalam bulan September ini akan menjadi lunas kapada sa-buah Sharikat Per kapalan Kebangsaan Malaysia.
Penu bohan Sharikat Perkapalan Kebang saan akan membolehkan Kerajaan menyelamatkan wang pertukaran luar yang pada masa ini terpaksa di-bayar kapada kapaF yang membawa barang2 export dan import sa-bagai bayaran2 tambang pengang kutan.

luar negeri Kerajaan belum lagi memikirkan tentang nama kedua2 kapal ini.

Toan Ramli bin Omar (Krian Darat): Soal tambahan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

Ada-kah Kerajaan Jepun sedia memberi latehan kapada anak2 negeri kita mengendalikan kapal ini?
Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan Yang akan di-Pertua, perkara timbangkan dan rundingkan dengan Kerajaan Jepun bila sampai masa-nya kelak.

ini kita MALAYAN CIVIL SERVICE PROPORTION OF MALAYS TO NON-MALAYS 3.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon asks the Prime Minister to state: (b) whether (a) the present proportion of Malays to Non-Malays in the Malayan Civil Service and the number of M.C.S.
posts still not filled; that is the proportion is now 9 to 1 and that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction amongst the non Bumiputera M.C.S.

officers as evidenced by the spate of re signations from the M.C.S.

lately.

true it Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya mohon izin, hendak menjawab dalam bahasa lnggeris.
that to say It is not Sir, the Malayan Civil Service is no longer in existence since it has been merged with the External Affairs Service Branch "A" last year to form the Malaysian Home and Foreign Service, and the proportion of Malays to non-Malays in the Malaysian Home and Foreign Service is about 6 to 1 and the number of vacancies is 40. true the proportion of Malays to non-Malays in the Malaysian Home and Foreign Service the Government is not aware of any feeling of dissatisfaction among the non bumiputera officers.
In the last three three resignations years from non-bumiputera officers as com pared with six bumiputera officers.

I cannot agree that this number can be taken as evidence of dissatisfaction among the non-bumiputera officers.

It is known that they have resigned to accept more lucrative offers from the private sector.
to 1, and there were is now 9 Dr Tan Chee Khoon (dengan izin): Is the Honourable Deputy Prime Minister aware that far from what the Deputy Prime Minister tells us, that they have resigned merely to accept more lucrative offers from the private sector, although that is one of the reasons, the main reason of quite a number of these non-bumiputeras resigning from the Civil Service is that they find that they, perhaps, have no prospects of going further up than that of, say, Superscale "D".
One instance was that of a Deputy Permanent Secretary.

It is true that there was a Permanent Secretary who also resigned, but he never got more than Superscale "D".

Can the Honourable the Deputy Prime Minister reconcile this with what he has stated?

Tun Haji Abdul Razak: ~re is actually no truth in this.

Once an officer has joined the Service, then it is provided in the Constitution that he would be treated fairly as regards his promotion.
And as far as this Govern ment is concerned, we have seen to it that all officers would be promoted fairly in accordance with their merits.

to Superscale "D" and Promotion 3049 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3050 above will, of course, depend on many factors-on vacancies and merits.
Promotion up to Superscale "F" has generally been, as it were, automatic, but promotion beyond Superscale "D" will have to depend on availability of posts, and it is not true to say that non-bumiputera officers, non-Malay officers, have no prospects for promo tion beyond Superscale "D".

There are now a few non-bumiputera officers occupying Superscale "C" and "B".

I will quote one example-the Head of the Economic Planning Unit.

He is now an officer of Superscale "B".
in is no discrimination Tuan Lim Kean Siew (Dato Kramat) (dengan izin): Mr Speaker, Sir, without going into recriminations, perhaps the Honourable Deputy Prime Minister can assure this House that there the appointment of Civil Servants to top posts, because there is one person, whose name I do not choose to mention this House, who was working for many years in England and who was later sent to another country, because it was found that he could not be given a post more senior than the post he had held in London because he was not a Malay?
in Tun Haji AINlul Razat: Sir, there is absolutely no truth in this at all.

I have assured this House in the past, and I can assure this House again, that all officers who are in the Service, now Malaysian Home and Foreign Service, would be treated fairly and justly, and their promotions will be carried out in accordance with the procedure depending on merits and availability of posts.

Tuan Mohd.

Daud bin Abdul Samad (Besot): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, soalan tambahan.
Apa-kah usaha yang ber s.unggoh2 dan berkesan yang sedang di-jalankan sekarang ini untok me menohkan kehendak Perlembagaan bagaimana yang telah di-tentukan, atau pun telah di-kotakan di-dalam Perlembagaan itu bahawa Pegawai M.C.S.
hendak-lah di-beri satu orang kapada orang yang bukan Melayu dan tiga orang kapada orang Melayu dan saya di~fahamkan bahawa sekarang ini sudah 10 ini sudah tahun negara merdeka dan berjalan-nya Perlemba gaan ini, tetapi maseh lagi kekosongan itu tidak dapat di-penohkan dan bila kah, atau pun pada tahun berapa-kah yang akan jawatan ini di-penohkan mengikut Perlembagaan.
Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, usaha2 telah di-jalankan untok mengadakan scholarship2 bagi anak2 Melayu memasoki sekolah tinggi, universiti di-Malaysia dan juga di-Iuar negeri, dan pada masa ini ada 54 orang Federal Scholars, anak2 bumiputera, yang sekarang ini dalam tahun yang akhir dalam universiti2 dan di-perchayai akan lulus pada tahun hadapan.

Ini tidak termasok scholar ship2 yang di-beri oleh Kerajaan2 Negeri.
Jadi, kalau mereka ini bersedia hendak masok berkhidmat dalam Kerajaan, saya perchaya vacancy yang ada ia-itu 40 itu akan dapat di-isi.

that there in what he calls Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Mr Speaker, the Sir, we are indeed grateful to Honourable Deputy Prime Minister for the assurances he has given us that there will be no discrimination in promotion prospects.
However, how does he reconcile the statement that he has made in this House with what is prevalent the Malaysian Home and Foreign Service at the moment?

It is true that he has mentioned is one non Bumiputera officer with Superscale "B."

in the E.P.U., but what about the host of others?

If one makes a comparison proportionately as between non-bumiputeras bumiputeras amongst the Superscale holders, one finds that there is only one Superscale "B"-and what about all the others?
Do not they rate anything proportion ately to what he has told us?

If what he has told us is true, then there should be at least some more in Superscale "B" or "C", or one would have thought that there would be some who are fit enough to be Permanent Secretaries.
and Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tue Honourable Member must understand that as far as the Civil Service is 3051 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3052 is only for concerned, it was only in 1952, or 1953. that the Conference of Rulers agreed to allow the admission of non-Malays into the Civil Service.

So, that is why we find that the large proportion of the senior officers in the Service are Malays.

It was only at the end of 1952 that the decision was made, and action was only taken in 1953.
That is why the majority of non-Malay officers are in the lower grade, but promotions have been made-in some cases accelerated promotions-I quoted one example of a Superscale "B" officer who is the Head of the Economic Planning Unit.

and also now there is a Superscale "C" in the Treasury, and also soon I think there will be another Superscale "C" in the Prime Minister's Department to be filled by a non Malay.
This the Civil Service, but we must also take into consideration the Technical Services and the majority of the Heads of Departments of Technical Services are non-Malays.

I think.

if we take the picture as a whole, the Public Service as a whole, the proportion of Malays and non-Malays is not bad.

I mean it is fair-and I think my non-Malay colleagues in the Cabinet, the Honour able Minister of Works.
Posts, and Telecommunications would bear me out that there has been fairness and justice to all in the Civil Service.

I have heard talk and rumour about discrimination, but I have had talks with senior non-Malay officers and have tried to find out whether there is such a thing, but so far I have not been able to find.

I would ask that such a rumour should be dispelled.
because it would not add to the morale of the Public Service, but if there is any instance of injustice, we would like to know and we will certainly put it right.

this I repeat, Sir, I have had talks a times with senior non number of Malay officers in the Civil Service and I have not been told that there has such discrimination or been any injustice.
Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Mr Speaker, Sir, since the Honourable Deputy Prime Minister says that he is not aware, may I point out to him one specific instance of an officer who has felt that he has been by-passed-I want to make it very clear that I have not at all discussed this thing with the officer concerned, but I do know the facts of the case-by people who have been very below him in the Civil Service and he has now joined the rubber as Secretary of MAP A.
The Deputy Prime Minister will know whom I am referring to.

industry Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Sir, I do not wish to discuss specific instances the Civil Service.

Of course, in is considered on merits, promotion and, in respect of the higher grades Superscale "D" and above-also on the availability of posts.

And some times officers are by-passed, even Malay officers.

In promotion, if an officer is not considered suitable to occupy a post, he is by-passed by another officer.
This happens in life and also in the Civil Service, and I would again assure the Honourable Member that there has been fairness and justice as far as the Civil Service is concerned to all members of the Civil Service.

Wan Abdul Kadir bin Ismail (Kuala Trenggano Utara): Tuan Yang di Pertua, soalan tambahan.
Berpandu kapada penerangan yang di-berikan oleh Timbalan Perdana Menteri, maka sedar bahawa tidak-kah Kerajaan thema yang di-bawa oleh Ahli dari Batu dan rakan2-nya, baik Ahli dari Dato Kramat atau Ahli dari Bungsar ada-lah merupakan suatu usaha yang berulang kali untok menchetuskan rasa perkauman dan bahawa mereka ada lah Bapa Perkauman dalam negeri ini?

Tuan Yang di-Pertua: Tidak ada ini.

soalan kena-mengena dengan (Ketawa).

RESUMPTION OF DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITII INDONESIA 4.
Toan Kadam anak Kiai [under S.O.

24 (2)] (dengan izin) asks the Minister of Foreign Affairs why, despite several announcements by the Foreign Affairs ties with Indonesia that diplomatic 3053 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3054 would be resumed at ambassadorial levels on 31st August, 1967, this has not occurred, and whether he could give a ·firm date when full diplomatic ties would be resumed.
for the information of Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya hendak meminta izin hendak menjawab dalam bahasa lng geris.

Mr Speaker, Sir, Malaysia has already resumed full diplomatic ties with Indonesia at Ambassadorial level on 31st August, 1967, as announced.

Now, the Honourable Member, having relations at Ambassadorial level does not mean that an Ambassador must be sent there and then.

Pending the arrival of the Ambassador, the Embassy is headed by a Charge-de-Affairs.
However, we have appointed Tan Sri Yaacob bin Abdul Latif to be our Ambassador to Indonesia and he will be leaving to take up his post very soon.

already DETENTION OF HAMID TUAH 5.


Dr Tan Chee Khoon (dengan izin): asks the Minister of Home Affairs to state: twice under (a) if it was true that Hamid Tuah the was detained Internal Security Act and that the order for detention was signed by the Mentri Besar of Selangor; (b) if it is true whether the Mentri Besar has any authority to do so, and if so, to state the authority; and (c) If Hamid Tuah has been detain ed under the Internal Security Act whether this is not an abuse of the l.S.A.
which was not de signed to deal with such a contin gency and whether the Mentri Besar had exhausted all legal remedies before resorting to such arbitrary action under the shelter of the l.S.A.

Tun Haji Abdul Razak (dengan isin): Sir, the arrest and detention of Hamid Tuah has been made under the Re stricted Residence Enactment and not the Internal 'Security Act.
The power to make an order under the Restricted Residence Enactment has been dele- gated by the then Minister of Interior on the 4th January, 1964, the Menteri2 Besar and the Chief Ministers.

to that Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Sir, is the Honourable Minister for Home Affairs aware the Menteri Besar of Selangor has time and again stated through the Press that if Enche' Hamid Tuah would not behave and toe the line, he would be detained under the Internal Security Act?
Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Sir, I am not responsible for what the Menteri Besar of Selangor says, but as far as detention under the Internal Security Act is concerned, the power is with me as Minister of Home Affairs.

PEMISAHAN KUMPULAN WANG SIMPANAN PEKERJA2 (E.P.F.)

DARI CENTRAL PROVIDENT FUND, SINGAPORE 6.

Tengku Zaid bin Tengku Ahmad [di-bawah S.O.

24 (2)] bertanya ka pada Menteri Kewangan: (a) ada-kah benar bahawa urusan Kumpulan Wang Simpanan Pe kerja2 (E.P.F.)

maseh belum di pisahkan dari C.P.F.


Singapura sa-hingga Singapura sa-olah2 maseh merupakan sa-bahagian dari Malaysia, jika ya, maka bila-kah perkara itu dapat di selesaikan; dan (b) ada-kah Kerajaan akan meminda Undang2 E.P.F.

supaya mem bolehkan penyimpan2-nya meng ambil sa-bahagian tertentu dari simpanan mereka sa-belum mereka sampai umor 55 tahun untok membeli rumah.
Menteri Muda Kewangan (Dr Ng Kam Poh): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Lembaga Kumpulan Wang Simpanan Pekerja dan Lembaga Kumpulan Wang Pusat Singapura, mempunyai pentadbiran yang berasingan dari dahulu lagi.

Pentadbiran kedua2 Lem baga tidak pernah di-satukan sa-belum atau pun sa-sudah Malaysia di-tubohkan.

Sunggoh pun kedua2 Lembaga ini mempunyai tujuan yang sa-rupa tetapi mereka tidak-lah sama semua perkara.
Perkataan dalam dalam di-gunakan Malaya, ada ini 3055 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3056 Sekshen 13 (l) (D) dalam Undang2 Kumpulan Wang Simpanan Pekerja yang memberi sharat bahawa Ahli Kumpulan Wang Simpanan Pekerja itu boleh mengeluarkan wang-nya bila ia meninggalkan negeri ini untok sa-lama2-nya.

ini mesti-lah Perkataan2 Malaya di-beri ma'ana sa-bagai kawasan2 negeri2 Per sekutuan dan Singapura oleh Interpre tation dan General Clauses Ordinance, lain2 perkataan sa 1948.
Dengan orang ahli Kumpulan Wang Simpanan Pekerja meninggalkan negeri2 Persekutuan dan Singapura un tok sa-lama2-nya sa-belum dia boleh menggunakan sharat2 ini untok me ngeluarkan wang-nya daripada Kum pulan Wang Simpanan Pekerja itu.

Ini mungkin telah menimbulkan salah faham bahawa kedua2 Kumpulan Wang Simpanan ada-lah di-bawah satu pentadbiran, sa-sunggoh-nya bukan-lah bagitu.
dengan (B) Berkenaan bahagian kedua soalan itu tentang bantuan ka pada ahli2 untok membeli rumah, saya telah pun menyatakan dalam jawapan kapada soalan yang sa-rupa dari sa orang ahli Dewan ini.

Kerajaan maseh menanti shoti tentang pekerjaan ini dari Lembaga Kumpulan Wang Sim panan Pekerja.
Saya telah di-beritahu bahawa perkara ini sangat rumit dan saya perchaya Ahli Yang Berhormat tidak mahukan sa-suatu cha tentu dangan di-laksanakan sa-belum semua masaalah yang rumit telah di-selesai kan sa-hingga memuaskan hati Lem baga yang sa-sunggoh-nya menjadi Badan Amanah Wang2 Anggota Kumpulan Wang Simpanan Pekerja itu.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, soalan tambahan.
Ada-kah Menteri Muda Kewangan sedar per kara ini telah timbul bukan sekarang sahaja, tetapi barangkali tiga empat ta hun yang lalu pada masa itu beberapa Kesatuan2 Sa-kerja telah meminta wang daripada E.P.F.

untok mendirikan rumah dan sekarang Menteri Muda Kewangan berkata Kerajaan akan sia sat, boleh-kah Menteri Muda mem beritahu kapada Rumah Yang Ber hormat ini berapa lama lagi Kerajaan Pusat akan menimbulkan perkara ini untok mengatasi beberapa masaalah2, a tau kerumitan2 yang ada?
Dr Ng Kam Poh: Tuan Yang di Pertua, soalan daripada Yang Ber hormat dari Batu telah faham, yang telah pun saya beri tahu kapada Ahli2 Yang Berhormat di-Dewan ini.

Per kara ini sangat rumit dan ma'alum-lah oleh kerana Kumpulan Wang Sim panan Pekreja ini hendak di-siasat lagi.

Oleh kerana itu maka sampai sekarang saya tidak boleh-lah memberi jawapan sampai bila saya boleh memberi wang untok membena rumah2 itu.

PILING AT IBE POLICE FIELD FORCE COMPLEX, TANJONG RAMBUTAN-INVESTIGATION 7.
Dr Tan Chee Khoon asks the Minister for Works, Posts and Tele communications to state: (a) if the P.W.D.

has completed the investigations into the piling at the Police Field Force Complex at Tanjong Rambutan.

and the results of the investigations; and (b) whether it is true that- (i) the contractors Gammons & Co., Ltd, have admitted liability;· (ii) that they have agreed to pay compensation the tune of $200,000 plus for the under-pinning work that has been carried out.
to Menteri Kerj~ Raya, Pos dan Tali kom (Tun V. T. Sambanthan): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya memohon ke benaran menjawab dalam bahasa Inggeris.

Yes, th~ Public Works De partment ~as just completed investiga tions into the piling of the buildings at the Police Field Force Base at Tanjong Rambutan and the report and recommendations will be submitted to the Cabinet for a decision.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: The Minister, I do not know whether deliberately or inadvertently, has chosen to by-pass (b) of my question.
If it is in the negative.

I shall be very grateful for an answer to that effect.

Part (b) of my question is 3057 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3058 whether it is true that the contractors Gammons & Co., Ltd, have admitted liability; (ii) that they have agreed to pay compensation tune of $200,000 plus for the under-pinning work that has been carried out.

I shall be grateful for a definite answer.

the to Tun V. T. Sambantban: I am afraid the Honourable Member is always in very much of a hurry.
I have said just now that the investigations have just been completed and that the report will be submitted to the Cabinet for a decision, and now it is up to the Cabinet to decide whether this report should be accepted or not.

Even before the report is accepted, where is the point of my negotiating with Gammons to ask them whether they accept liabi lity or not?

Where the Government is concerned, if there had been over calculation of plies, they will have to pay.

There is no running away from it.


that Dr Tan Chee Khoon: This business of piling in this country has become curious and curious as time goes by and if we are not careful we may all end up with Alice in Wonderland.

The Honourable Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications in his reply to me on 22nd of February, 1967, had stated very categorically the Designs and Research Section itself had under-designed-the word here I read is "under-designed" -the load of this particular building.
Then he says, "But the tilt of this particular building is not related to the fault of Gammons in all fairness to them, but on the P.W.D.

itself.

We cannot get at the they people happen to be expatriate officers and they have left the country".

That was the reply on the 22nd of February, 1967.

In reply to another question that I had followed up in June, a written reply in June 1967, this is what the Minister says: Again I had asked the Minister of Works, Posts and Telecom munications if the P.W.D.
has com pleted the investigations into the piling at the Police Field Force Complex at Tanjong Rambutan, and if so, what are the results of the investigations.

The last paragraph of the reply is very interesting reading in view of the cate- responsible for it for gorical statement by the Honourable Minister in this House that the fault lies with the P.W.D.

engineers expa triates at that and not with Gammons.
I read the last paragraph: "Based on the investigation work of seven blocks of building, there is an indication of short piling by the contractor and the amount of such short piling is being examined by the Department".

Can the Honourable Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications tell us how does he reconcile this reply with the original categorical statement he had made in this House in that Gammons was not at fault.
Tun V. T. Sambanthan: I am afraid the Honourable Member, being in very much of a hurry, does not go through these things carefully.

If he took time off and went through the replies care fully, he would find that there are two distinct spheres.

One sphere relates to the piling of the buildings and the other relates to the tilt of a certain building.

I referred to the tilt of a certain build ing and I said that his was caused by under-design by the Designs and Research Branch of the P.W.D.
and, as such, it would not be fair to throw the blame on Gammons simply because they have a bad name.

The second part relates to the piling work as such for the whole of this annexe.
With regard to the piling work, he said we were satisfied that there was a degree of under-piling and that we would have to go into careful inves tigation to assess the actual nature of the over-calculation of these piles by Gammon & Co. That has been gone through by the P.W.D., as I replied this morning, and as I said, the report is now available, and the report and recommendations will be submitted to the Cabinet for its decision.

I do not know what is devious about the whole thing?
Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Is the Honour able Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications aware that under pinning work has been carried out in this complex and that the bill to the tune of $200,000 over has been plunked on Gammons?
Under-pinning of faulty piling and of the tilt of the building 3059 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3060 in the Tanjong Rambutan Police Field Force complex has been going on and if I am correct he says it has been carried out and that the expenditure for this work has been plunked on to Gammon & Co., Ltd. Tun V. T. Sambanthan: Am I to understand, Sir, that he is now holding a brief for Gammon & Co., Ltd and is he now pleading that we do not charge Gammon & Co. for this under pinning work?
Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not doing anything of that sort.

What I am trying to point out is this.

Possibly the Minister may be very devious in his answer; I am not devious in my questions.

I am holding brief for no one.

I hold brief in this House for my constituents and for this country to see that the money voted by this House is carefully spent and does not go into the pockets of corrupt officials.
Let the Honourable Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications give us a straightforward answer.

Tun V. T. Sambanthan: He is speaking of public funds and at the same time he says that if we are going to charge Gammons for under-pinning work it is not fair.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: I did not say anything of that sort.

What I wanted to ask the Honourable Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications-per haps my English is not as good as it should be.
Mr Speaker: I think if you are more definite in your supplementary ques tions, to the point, you will get better answers.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: The question to which I seek an answer is this : is the Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications aware that under pinning work to rescue the tilt of the building, to rescue short piling, has taken place and that this bill has been debited towards Gammon & Co. Ltd?

That is all I ask.

I am not saying whether it is fair or unfair.


Tun V. T. Sambanthan: I have said that his matter will be put before the Cabinet.

After the Cabinet has taken a decision, I will certainly give him all the facts.

Where is the hurry?

Tuan Lim Kean Siew: Mr Speaker, Sir, perhaps the Honourable Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunica tions would inform this House whether or not this under-pinning work carried out by Gammons is as a result of the tilt or is as a result of short piling.
Then we will know who is to blame .. Tun V. T. Sambanthan: Who said that this under-pinning work has been carried out by Gammons?

Tuan Lim Kean Siew: Mr Speaker, Sir, very well, that under-pinning work has been carried out, whether by Gammons or by somebody else.

(Laughter).
(Laughter).

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Honourable the Minister of Works, Posts and Telecom munications said that my Honourable colleague had mixed up the two points; one answer given by him was with regard to the tilt which, he says, was due to the fault of the P.W.D.
Engi neers; the other was the question of short piling and that is what the inves tigations are about, and we do not yet know who is responsible; the report is ready and is being studied by the Cabinet as to whether or not there is short piling, as to whether or not who should pay for the short piling.

Now, the question my Honourable colleague has asked is a very simple matter.
He understands that Gammons had agreed to pay compensation to the tune of over $200,000 for under-pinning work which has been carried out.

Now, it is very simple this House to inform whether or not this under-pinning work has been carried out, and if so, was it due to the short piling or was it due to the tilt, because if it was due to the short piling, then Gammons is liable.

If it was due to tilting, then of course, the P.W.D.
is liable according to the answers given to this House, Tun V. T. Sambantban: Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Honourable Member had read, he read a part of it my reply given on the 22nd.February, 1967, and I have armed myself with a copy of it 3061 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3062 here, he would have known, that my reply then said : "It is not related to the fault of Gammons' work, in all fairness to them".

Having said that, why does he think we are going to bill Gammons $200,000 for this under· pinning work?
That is my question; why does he assume these things?

It is an assumption which is neither neces sary nor warranted by any reply I have given in this House.

If anything, the assumption that he can have is, since I have said publicly in this House that Gammons are not responsible for this particular bit of work, that Gammons would therefore not be charged for this under-pinning, but he assumed that Gammons will be charged and now holding a brief for Gammons, he is asking : "Please do not charge them".
My reply has been, if he would have gone through this reply earlier on, that such a question does not arise, because we have been frank enough to accept our fault in this House.

That being so, we can now get rid of that aspect of under-pinning work.

The question does not arise.

The rest is with regard to the investigations on this piling.

I said in earlier replies that we are satisfied that there has been a degree of over-calculation or under-piling whichever way you look at it.
There has been something wrong there, and therefore we have gone into careful investigation.

Having gone into careful investigation, we have now got the report which will be submitted to the Cabinet.

When the Cabinet takes a decision we would know the tune to which Gammons would have to pay the Government.

That is all there is to it.


I think I am very clear in my reply, Siri Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am very grateful for the concise reply by the Honourable Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications.

If you would refer to the original ques tion that I asked on 22nd February, 1967, it was on the talk of short piling and I was only concerned about the short piling and not the tilting.
Number two, I agree with him entirely that if Gammons were not responsible for the tilting, then they should not be crimi nally liable.

He has now tried to be very euphemistic regarding short piling; instead of calling it short piling, he says over-calculation.

Now, be that as it may, Mr Speaker, Sir, he now says that there is a degree of short piling and that the Cabinet is looking into this problem and that whatever action that will be taken will be based on Cabinet's decision on the short piling.
Now, we all entirely agree with him.

What I wish to tell the Minister is this : my information, which is a reliable piece of information .

.

.

.

.

Mr Speaker: Are you going to tell, or are you going to ask?

(Laughter).

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: I want to ask the Minister whether he is aware my that Gammons have information is accepted liability for under-pinning work as a result of short piling to the tune of $200,000.
Now, if Gammons are not at fault in that they have not short-piled, then they would not want to pay compensation, as they have paid in Singapore to the tune of $2.7 million.

This is not a small matter or a laughing matter as the Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications knows.
I hope the Cabinet will be very serious about this matter in that if there is evidence of short piling, then not only should they be criminally liable for any rescue work that may have to be done or have been done, but the matter should be reported to the Anti-Corruption Agency.

Tun V. T. Sambanthan: Not all the shears in this world can remove the woolly-headedness of my friend, Sir.
I have given categorical answers so far and all I would like to say here is, that whoever is his informant he had better correct the method in which his infor mant gets his inormation.

Tuan Speaker: Sekarang kita keluar dari Tanjong Rambutan (Laughter).

KEDUDOKAN KERAJAAN MALAYSIA MENGENAI PENERBANGAN MALAY- SIA-SINGAPURA 8.

Teugku Zaid bin Tengku Ahmad bertanya ~apada Menteri Pengangkutan apa-kah sa-benar-nya kedudokan Kera· jaan mengenai M.S.A.
(Penerbangan 3063 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3064 Malaysia-Singapura), sa-takat mana kah Kerajaan terlibat pada telah membiayai M.S.A.

dan sa-jauh mana kah Kerajaan telah masok champor da.lam.

urusan M.S.A.

Menteri Pengangtut.an (Tan Sri Haji Sardon bin Haji Jubir): Tuan Yang di Pertua, Kerajaan Malaysia telah mengaku untok mengendalikan Shari kat Penerbangan Malaysia-Singapura (M.S.A.)
dengan memelihara dari sa masa ka-samasa kelebehan saham ber sama2 yang utama dengan Kerajaan Singapura dan sesuai dengan penga kuan ini Kerajaan2 Malaysia dan Singapura, masing2 mempunyai 4 orang Pengarah di-dalam Lembaga Pengarah Sharikat Penerbangan Malaysia Singapura.

Saya berpuas hati bahawa dengan chara ini-penguasaan yang sunggoh berkesan ka-atas segala hal ehwal urusan sharikat ini dapat di adakan.

Tengku Zaid bin Tengku Ahmad: Soalan tambahan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.
Mengikut Yang Berhormat Menteri Pengangkutan tadi, Kerajaan Malaysia ada mempunyai sama banyak saham dengan Kerajaan Singapura, tetapi mengapa-kah pula peringkat "Manage ment" atau pun daily administration yang di-dapati dalam M.S.A.

sekarang ini kebanyakan-nya terdiri daripada orang2 warganegara Singapura, sadikit sahaja daripada warganegara Malaysia.
Tan Sri Haji Sardoa bin Haji .Jubir: Ahli Yang Berhormat ini ada lagi tiga pertanyaan besok yang berhubong dengan ini, tetapi malang-nya dia sudah meminta pada hari ini.

Jadi saya bagi jawapan dengan 'am sahaja.
Berkenaan Dengan banyak atau tidak warganegara Malaysia ini mengikut riwayat tawa rikh dahulu-Malayan Airways-yang mana Kerajaan tidak mempunyai share atau pun mempunyai share yang sadi kit; daripada masa itu apabila di iklankan hendak menggunakan orang, kebanyakan orang daripada Tanah Melayu tidak suka tinggal di-Singapura, jauh daripada rumah tangga, anak bini, tetapi bagaimana pun ada juga yang hendak, sebab itu ini historical, tetapi kita sekarang ini semenjak mengadakan hubongan bersama, kita menjaga hak kita bersama.
saya Tengku Zaid bin Tengku Ahl08d: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ingat Menteri berchakap lebeh garang dan marah sadikit ini, tetapi saya minta.

tidak-kah Yang pada fikiran saya.

Berhormat sedar berkenaan dengan management hari2 itu yang di-jalankan oleh M.S.A.

sekarang ini, kebanyakan nya yang saya tanya tadi terdiri dari pada orang Singapura.
Apa-kah tinda kan yang akan di-ambil oleh Menteri yang berkenaan untok memberi sama banyak pekerjaan ini kapada anak2 Malaysia sama, bukan sahaja terdiri daripada orang2 Singapura.

Tan Sri Haji Sardon bin Haji Jubir: Saya berkata tadi tentang kita punya Directors atau Pengarah, kita ada 4, Singapura ada 4; ini yang menentukan policy.
Management ini menjalankan dasar atau policy dan apabila kita sudah tetapkan jawatan2 yang tinggi sekarang ini apabila hendak memakai orang2 baharu akan di-ishtiharkan dan warganegara Malaysia dan Singapura ada berhak sama memohon dan akan di-interview on merit tidak on discrimi nation yang ini Singapura-kah, tetapi sa-berapa boleh kita akan minta persamaan daripada hari yang kita bekerjasama dan ber modal sama.
Tetapi soal yang sudah itu macham mana kita hendak tambah tambah lagi lagi General Manager, General Manager; ini perniagaan, chuba-lah Yang Berhormat itu fikir baik2.

ini Melayu-kah, SHARIKAT PENERBANGAN MA LAYSIA/SINGAPURA-BAHAGIAN SAHAM YANG Dl-PUNYAI OLEH KERA.JAAN MALAYSIA DAN KERAJAAN SINGAPURA 9.
Tengku Zaid bin Tengku Ahmad bertanya kapada Menteri Pengangkutan ada-lah Kerajaan Singapura mem punyai lebeh banyak saham daripada Kerajaan Malaysia dalam M.S.A., jika tidak, boleh-kah beliau menerangkan sebab2-nya kenapa semasa pengambilan pekerja2 jelas ternampak lebeh ramai Ra'ayat dari Ra'ayat Malaysia telah dapat bekerja di-M.S.A.

Singapura 3065 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3066 .

.. telah berulang hadapkan itu telah di-siasat kelak.
itu terutama sa-kali dalam jawatan2 untok bekerja dengan Sharikat Pener- bangan Malaysia-Singapura dan jika tinggi.

• Ahli Yang Berhormat mempunyai Taa Sri Ha~i Sardon .~m Ha~ Jubm alasan2 atau keterangan2 yang penoh Tuan Yang d1-Pertua, Jika Ahh Yang mengenai perkara ini, saya merasa Berhormat dapat menyemak s.a-mula sangat gumbira menyiasat-nya dan rekod2 atau pun c~tt'.tan2 I?erJalanan mengambil tindakan2 yang sa-wajar tudohan2 yang di im.
behau akan nya, sa-kira-nya Mesh1:1arat Dewan dapati bahawa saya kali menjawab pertanyaan2 sa-umpama ini, tetapi memandangkan bahawa Tuan Mustapha bin Ahmad (Tanah beJiau sa-orang Ahli baharu Dewan Merah): Boleh-kah Menteri Pengang ini, maka saya ulang sa-kali lagi bagi kutan membuat satu sharat baharu pehak Yang Berhormat itu.

Kerajaan supaya tidak timbul masaalah tidak Malaysia mempunyai saham yang puas hati pegawai2 yang akan di sama dalam Sharikat Penerbangan ambil di-dalam M.S.A.
ini, ia-itu di Malaysia-Singapura dengan Keraja_an jumlah-nya dari Malaysia itu Singapura dan mempunyai wakil yang sama di-dalam Lembaga boleh-lah di-serahkan kapada satu Pengarah.

Saya tetapi orang tertentu, Ahli Yang Berhormat bahawa Ke- yang akan bekerja umpama-nya 10: menterian saya sel~u b_erha~rat agar 5-5-daripada Singapura 5, daripada warganegara Malaysia di-ben peluang Malaysia 5 untok mengelakkan dari bekerja yang ~ama di-dalam.
semua pada tudohan mengatakan bahawa ~ren_gkat ¢ker1aan termasok 1awatan2 ada-nya prejudice dan lain2 dari tmgg1 Singapura.

Mengenai keadaan ke- lebehan pegawai2 tinggi yang terdiri Tan Sri Haji Sardon bin Haji Jubir: Ingatan _Yang Berhormat •.

saya uchap daripada Singapura warganegara sekarang ini ada-lah mungkin di-sebab- kan tenma kaseh tetap1 sama ada kan pada masa dahulu lebeh banyak prektik tidak prektik ini chadangan permohonan telah di-terima daripada .

atas kertas satu kesah.


Saya aka~ perentahkan pengarah2 dan wakll warganegara Sin()'apura.

Malaysia ini supaya.

membuat cha dangan yang prektik supaya boleh kita menjaga jangan sampai-lah prejudice atau apa pun yang di-sangkakan itu akan timbul lagi.

jumlah dan Singapura.

Soal pemilehan dengan warganegara pemilehan itu.

ingin memberitahu board yang tentukan sama 0 benar PENERBANG MALAYSIA/SINGA PURA-CHALUN2 MELA YU Dl TOLAK OLEH JUMA'AH PEMILEH, SINGAPURA 1:0.
Tengku Zaid bin Tengku Ahmad bertanya kapada Menteri Pengangkutan ada-kah Juma'ah Pemileh di-Singapura itu terdiri dari Ra'ayat bukan Melayu Singapura yang mana ada mempunyai rasa prejudice terhadap orang2 Melayu Malaysia, sama ada beliau bersetuju dengan tudohan yang menyatakan bahawa chalun2 Melayu telah di-tolak: sekali pun mereka ada mempunyai kelaya kan2 yang di-kehendaki.

bahawa Tan Sri Haji Sardon bin Hajj Jubir: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya telah pun menjawab bahagian pertama soalan ini.
fi.kir bahawa Lembaga Saya Pemileh Sharikat Penerbangan Malay sia-Singapura mempunyai prasangka terhadap pengambilan chalun2 Melayu tidak itu Haji Wan Abdul Kadir bin Ismail (Koala Trengganu): Menurut keterang tadi bahawa Lembaga an Menteri tidak ada Interview Singapura mempunyai perasangka atau prejudice kapada ra'ayat Malaysia.
Dapat-kah Menteri memberi jaminan, fahaman prejudice ini sa-benar-nya tidak ada, memandangkan langkah Singapura sa lama ini yang telah mengenakan work permit kapada orang2 Malaysia dan mengenakan lagi bayaran sekolah yang tinggi kapada anak2 Malaysia di Singapura, jaminan tentang tidak ada nya perasangka itu.
Tan Sri Haji Sanlon bin Haji Jubir: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, jaminan itu saya akan hubongkan dengan Kerajaan Singapura, kerana soal work permit 3067 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3068 itu bukan soal kuasa Kerajaan Perse kutuan, tetapi daripada perjanjian yang telah di-adakan ,memang ada sharat2, pegawai2 yang gaji-nya tinggi; ada had-nya, saya lupa, tetapi saya akan bagi nanti kapada Yang Berhormat itu.
Berkenaan dengan pegawai2 teknikal, berkenaan dengan work pass itu boleh katakan otomatik, tetapi yang menjadi soal ini, kadang2 kerja yang menjadi tukang sapu, jadi peon, kalau yang pemohon itu dari Tanah Melayu ini hendak ka-sana, barangkali dengan gaji yang kechil itu pun tidak memadai-tidak hendak barangkali.

Jadi, ini pengarah2 sedang lagi meng uruskan dan apabila saya dapat peng akuan daripada Kerajaan Singapura, semua tingkat yang saya chakap ini, saya akan bagi tahu Rumah Yang Berhormat ini.
pergi Tuan Abdul Razak 1bin Han (Lipis): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, oleh sebab perkara2 yang berlaku antara dua Kerajaan berhubong dengan M.S.A.

ini, yang kedua-nya, oleh sebab kawa san Malaysia sendiri lebeh luas dari pada Singapura, ada-kah Kerajaan Malaysia berchadang untok menuboh kan sa-buah sharikat yang berasingan daripada M.S.A.
Tan Sri Haji S81'1don bin Haji Jubir: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sa-benar-nya Yang Berhormat itu telah pun meng adakan soalan, tetapi malang-nya tidak sampai waktu bagi saya menjawab-nya.
Saya faham yang di-kehendaki dan bagi pehak Kerajaan saya sendiri se dang menyiasat sa-halus2-nya kerana apabila Singapura berpisah Kerajaan Singapura, Kerajaan Malaysia menim bangkan pada waktu itu tidak ada lebeh2 elok dan lebeh menguntongkan mengadakan bersama2, tetapi kita bukan akan kekal bersama2, kita akan menyelideki sa-halus2-nya dan apabila sampai waktu-nya nanti, kita akan mengambil tindakan yang mana di fikirkan boleh menguntongkan ra'ayat, negara dan juga sharikat penerbangan, kalau kita hendak mengadakan sendiri.
boleh-kah pehak Menteri meninjau sa mula keselurohan kedudokan peng ambilan kaki-tangan M.S.A.

oleh pehak Kerajaan Malaysia?

Tan Sri Baji Sardon bin Haji Jubir: Saya telah beri perentah kapada Pe ngarah2 yang baharu sahaja meshuarat pada 7 haribulan yang lampau dan mereka barangkali akan mengadakan satu2 chara yang lebeh sesuai lagi sa bagaimana saya terangkan tadi yang chara boleh di-pretikkan.

JUALAN CBOKLAT BERABI 11.

Tuan Mustapha bin Ahmad [di bawah S.O.


24 (2)] bertanya kapada Menteri Pelajaran ada-kah benar ba hawa satu jenis choklat yang di-sebut "choklat Berahi" telah merebak jualan nya ka-maktab2 dan sekolah2 mene ngah di-Malaysia Barat; dan ada-kah Kementerian Pelajaran sudah memasti kan bahawa choklat2 itu betuF "choklat Berahi", dan jika sudah, apa-kah lang kah2 yang di-ambil untok menchegah penjualan "choklat2" itu.
Menteri Pelajaran (Tuan Mohamed Khir Johari): Tuan Speaker, Kemen terian Pelajaran belum lagi menerima laporan mengenai penjualan choklat jenis yang di-sebutkan itu di sekolah2 atau pun di-maktab2, tetapi saya itu telah merujokan perkara kapada Kementerian Kesihatan untok di-siasat.

ada Tuan Mustapha bin Ahmad: Soalan tambahan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

Ada kah benar choklat2 berahi ini banyak datang-nya daripada negeri Siam?

Tuan Speaker: Datang-nya daripada mana?


Tuan Mu:Jtapha bin Ahmad: Banyak datang dari Thailand dan telah timbul sungutan2 daripada sa-tengah kawasan2 yang berdekatan dengan sempadan Siam itu, ibu bapa tidak puas hati dan orang ramai tidak puas hati, kerana tidak pehak Kementerian Kesihatan menchegah-nya dengan bersunggoh2.
Baji Wan Abdul Kadir bin Ismail: Oleh kerana nampak-nya tidak ada ja minan yang tegas tentang tiada pera sangka daripada peliak Singapura Tuan Mohamed Khir Johari: Tuan Speaker, kalau dia datang daripada Siam, barangkali datang ikut Sungai Golok (Ketawa).

3069 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3070 Tuan Ahmad bin Arshad (Muar Utara): Soalan tambahan.
Bagaimana jawapan yang di-beri oleh Yang Ber hormat Menteri Pelajaran tadi dan beliau juga sa-bagai sifat Pengerusi Ranchangan Keluarga kita, kira-nya dalam siasatan itu benar ada choklat berahi ini dengan berluasa2 di-Malay sia ini, ada-kah sa-bagai Pengerusi Ranchangan Keluarga itu hendak me nambah pill yang di-beri kapada orang ramai sekarang termasok pill choklat berahi ini yang sangat di-hajat oleh juga kelamin2 ra'ayat Malaysia dan berkehendakkan berahi.
Tuan Mohamed Khir Johari: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya sa-bagai Penge rusi Lembaga Peranchang tidak mene gah orang hendak buat itu-lah, yang saya tahan fasal beranak sahaja (Ke tawa).

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Soalan tamba han, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

Boleh-kah Menteri Pelajaran menjamin kapada Rumah Yang Berhormat ini choklat itu tidak masok melalui Perlis dan Kedah terutama Kedah, bukan Sungai Golok sahaja.

Tuan Mohamed Khir Johari: Itu Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Kelantan yang bertanya tadi.
BILANGAN KELAS2 ATAU SEKOLAH2 BERSENDIRIAN Dl-TUTUP KERANA USAHA2 SABERSIF 12.

Tuan Mustapha bin Ahmad [di bawah S.O.

24 (2)] bertanya kapada Menteri Pelajaran berapa banyak-kah kelas2 atau sekolah2 bersendirian telah di-perentah supaya di-tutup kerana terlibat dalam usaha2 sabersif dan sebutkan nama sekofah2 dan tempat2- nya.

Tuan Mohamed Khir Johari: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sa-takat ini belum lagi sa-buah sekolah pun yang di-tutup terlibat dalam usaha2 oleh kerana sabersif.
Tindakan sedang di-ambil sekarang di-atas kelas2 haram yang tidak di-daftarkan mengikut undang2.

Bilangan-nya tidak dapat saya beri tahu pada masa ini.

Tuan Mustapha ,bin Ahmad: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, boleh-kah Yang Ber- hormat Menteri Pelajaran membentang kan di-dalam Dewan ini pada masa akan datang semua usaha2 yang di katakan sabersif yang di-lakukan dalam kelas2 malam saperti mana yang tersibar meluas dalam negeri kita pada hari ini.

Tuan Mohamed Khir Johari: Boleh.


PRICES OF PRIMARY PRODUCTS OF MALAYSIA 13.

Tuan Kadam anak Kiai (Sarawak) [under S.O.

24 (2)] asks the Minister of Commerce and Industry to state the steps taken to improve prices of pri mary products in Malaysia.

.

Menteri Perdagangan dan Perusa haan (Dr Lim Swee Aun) (dengan izin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the prices of primary products are influenced by the the world markets.
fluctuations These fluctuations may be reduced by international bodies or international negotiations and Malaysia has taken every opportunity to look after the prices of our primary commodities in all international forums.

in RANCHANGAN UNTOK MENU BOHKAN PERUSAHAAN KECHIL DI-KAWASAN BATU GAJAH 14.

Tuan Ng Fah Yam bertanya kapada Menteri Perdagangan dan Per usahaan ada-kah beliau mempunyai ranchangan bagi mengadakan apa2 perusahaan2 kechil dalam kawasan Batu Gajah, dan jika tiada, berikan sebab2-nya.
• Dr Lim Swee Aun: Tuan Yang di Pertua, pada masa sekarang belum ada ranchangan2 untok menubohkan perusahaan2 kechil di-kawasan Batu Gajah.

Sunggoh pun bagitu, jika ke adaan memerlukan, saya tentu sa-kali akan menimbangkan kemungkinan untok menubohkan perusahaan2 kechil bukan sahaja dalam Batu Gajah akan tetapi dalam bandar2 yang lain.

Tuan Mohamed Idris bin Matsil (Jelebu-Jempol): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, soalan jawapan tambahan.
Dengan Yang Berhormat Menteri tadi, tidak kah ada Kerajaan Negeri Sembilan 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3072 3071 menyampaikan kenyataan2 supaya per usahaan2 yang kechil sa-umpama itu di-jalankan atau di-usahakan di-sabuah kawasan ia-itu di perindasterian, kawasan Senawang di-Negeri Sembilan.

Dr Lim Swee Aun: Sunggoh pun ada satu kawasan perusahaaru di-Negeri Sembilan, akan tetapi belum lagi ada kilang2 perusahaan kechil yang terdiri di-kawasan itu.

WITHDRAW AL OF TRANSIT STATUS IN RUBBER OF BATU PAHAT 15.
Tuan C. V. Devan Nair (Bungsar) izin) asks the Minister of (Dengan Commerce ·and Industry to state the date and reasons for the withdrawal of the transit status of Batu Pahat in rubber trade and to narrate the events leading up to the withdrawal of the transit status including details of the representations which the Ministry received on the matter.

Dr Lim Swee Aun (dengan izin): Sir, the transit status of Batu Pahat in rubber was withdrawn on the I st of July, 1967.
The withdrawal was made at the request of the Rubber Dealers' Association Batu Pahat, who contended that their rubber dealers were in diffi culty in getting rubber from Indonesia which were mostly to Singapore by road from Batu Pahat.

Events leading to the withdrawal are as follows.


transhipped Prior to March, 1967 a fee of $500 was levied by the Customs Department for supervising transhipment of the to Singapore goods from Indonesia which do not attract import duty under section 140 of the Customs Ordinance, 1952.

During that period, Batu Pahat millers consumed about one-third of the Indonesian rubber imported through this port whilst the balance, the remain ing transhipped by road to Singapore.
The fee of $500 was reviewed and was reduced to $10 per ton in order not to impose too great a burden on the.

traders.

This new rate was effective on the 1st of March, 1967.

It would appear that as a result of this new rate, it tranship became much cheaper two-thirds, was to Indonesian rubber from Batu Pahat to Singapore.

As a result of this, all the rubber that came through Batu Pahat went through to Singapore and the millers in Batu Pahat could not get any rubber other than a re-import from Singapore.
It was, therefore, con sidered that since the millers in Batu Pahat could not remill the rubber which came via Batu Pahat directly, it was thought necessary that the tran shipment of rubber to Singapore should be stopped.

That was why on the 1st of July, 1967, the transhipment was stopped.
Indonesian barter Since then this has evoked contrary views from the Chinese Chamber of Commerce and others in Batu Pahat who maintain that as a result of this ban, traders no longer called at Batu Pahat but went straight to Singapore.

This resulted in the slackening of barter trade in that area, and the Minister of Finance again took away this ban on the transhipment on the 3rd of November.
BANTUAN WANG YANG DI BERIKAN KAPADA KAMPONG2 BAHARU DAN MAJLJsi TEMPA TAN DI-DALAM KAWASAN BATU GAJAH PADA TAHUN2 YANG LEPAS 16.

Tuan Ng Fah Yam bertanya kapada Menteri Kerajaan Tempatan dan Perumahan apa-kah pemberian telah di-berikan kapada Kam yang pong2 Baharu dan Majlis2 Tempatan dalam kawasan pilehanraya Batu Gajah pada tahun2 yang lepas, untok mening gikan taraf hidup mereka.
Menteri Kerajaan Tempatan dan Perumahan (Tuan Khaw Kai-Boh)i Tuan Yang di-Pertua, oleh kerana Kampong2 Baharu dan Majlis2 Tem patan di-negeri itu ada-lah tanggong· jawab Kerajaan Negeri, soalan tersebut patut-lah di-rojokkan kapada Kerajaan Negeri Perak yang akan dapat menya.

takan jenis2 peruntokan yang telah di beri kapada Kampong2 Baharu dan Majlis2 Tempatan di-kawasan pilehan raya Batu Gajah.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua: Masa untok pertanyaan2 bagi Jawab Mulut telah chukup.

Persidangan di-tempohkan.


3073 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3074 (Tempoh Pertanyaan Mu/ut telah chukup, dan jawapan2 kapada Per tanyaan No.

17 sampai No.

19 ada-lah di-beri di-bawah ini.)

AMENDMENT TO mE INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS ACT 17.


Tuan C. V. Devan Nair asks the Minister of Labour whether he would incorporate the following amendment in the Industrial Relations Act; "Any award, or decision or order of the Court shall not be subject to certiorari, prohibition, mandamus or injunction in any court account" to fill the obvious lacunae in the Act which have per mitted some employers to fmstrate the objectives of the Act.
The Minister of Labour (Tuan V. Manickavasagam): My Ministry is in consultation with the Attorney-General on the feasibility of inserting such a provision in the Industrial Relations Act.

LAWATAN ROMBONGAN KEBUDAYAAN KA-INDONESIA 18.


Tuan Haji Mokhtar bin Haji Ismail bertanya kapada Menteri Kebu dayaan, Belia dan Sokan, ada-kah Kerajaan akan menimbang menghantar Rombongan2 Kebudayaan Malaysia ka-lndonesia untok mengadakan per tunjokan2 kebudayaan atas dasar ber tukar2, sa-laras dengan apa yang di buat oleh Kerajaan Indonesia supaya lagi perhubongan kita mengeratkan tidak, dengan mengapa.
Indonesia; dan Fka (Tuan Senu Menteri Kebudayaan, Belia dan Sokan bin Abdul Rahman): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, pada masa ini Kerajaan belum lagi dapat menghantar rombongan2 kebudayaan Malaysia ka-Indonesia oleh kerana beberapa sebab terutama dari segi ke wangan.

Menghantar satu2 rombongan keluar negeri memerlukan perbelan jaan yang besar.

Oleh kerana kedudo kan kewangan pada masa ini tidak bagitu sehat, maka soal membuat lawata,n ini terpaksa di-tanggohkan.
Rombongan Indonesia yang mem lawatan ka-Malaysia hampir buat kesemua-nya di-anjorkan oleh Shari kat2 Perniagaan atau badan2 tertentu di-sini.

Badan2 kebudayaan Malaysia belum lagi ada membuat ranchangan untok meminta Sharikat2 di-Indonesia menganjorkan lawatan di-Indonesia.

MARKETING SCHEMES OF FAMA 19.

Tuan Lim Kean Siew asks the Minister of Agriculture and Co operatives to state what planning went into the scheme of FAMA and what surveys were made before the scheme was introduced.
Menteri Pertanian dan Sharikat Kerjasama (Tuan Haji Mohd.

Ghazalli bin Haji Jawi): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, before FAMA implements any market ing scheme necessary investigations and surveys are carried out by FAMA economists with the advice and assis tance of an F.A.O.

Marketing Expert now working with FAMA.

Persidangan pukul 11.00 pagi.

di-tempohkan pada Persidangan di-sambong sa-mula pada pukul 11.40 pagi.
(Tuan Yangi di-Pertua mempengeru>'>i kan Meshuarat) RANG UNDANG2 THEEDUCATION(AMENDMENT) BILL Bachaan Kali Yang Kedua dan Ketiga Menteri Pelajaran (Tuan Mohamed Kbir Johari): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya mohon menchadangkan supaya Rang Undang2 Pelajaran (Pindaan) 1967 di-bacha pada kali yang kedua.

Peratoran2 Kumpulan Wang Sim panan Guru2, 1962 tidak mengandongi peruntokan bagi perlantekan wakil atau pun waris-norninee-kapada sa-saorang pencharom.
Pehak Guru dalam Lembaga Wang Simpanan Guru2 dan Majlis Bersama Kebangsaan bagi Guru2 telah meminta supaya peruntok an di-adakan dalam peratoran2 itu bagi membolehkan perlantekan saperti itu.

3075 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3076 Permintaan ini telah di-binchangkan pada meshuarat yang ka-14 Lembaga Kumpulan Wang Simpanan Guru2 pada 22hb April, 1967, yang telah memutuskan supaya tindakan di-ambil untok membuat pindaan2 yang perlu dalam Act Pelajaran.
Pindaan ini akan membolehkan wakil, atau pun waris2 pencharom, mengeluarkan wang tidak lebeh dari $3,000 apabila sa-orang pencharom mati dengan tidak memer lukan surat pengesahan wasiat atau pun surat kuasa-nya.

Oleh yang demi kian peruntokan ini akan merengankan kesusahan kewangan yang menimpa keluarga sa-saorang pencharom apabila beliau meninggal dunia.

Untok membolehkan peruntokan saperti itu di-buat Section 117 dalam Act Pelajaran, 1961, perlu-lah di-pinda.
Oleh kerana itu, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya mohon menchadangkan.

Tan Sri Haji Sardon bin Haji Jubir: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya mohon menyokong.

Tuan Mohamed Zahir bin Haji Ismail (Sungei Patani): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Bill ini akan membolehkan sa-saorang contributor itu melantek sa-saorang nominee, umpama-nya isteri atau anak sulong-nya atau sa-siapa2 pun.
Sunggoh pun nampak-nya chara2 melantekkan nominee ini boleh di anggap daripada segi ugama Islam tetapi ia-lah membuat satu wasiat, saya rasa oleh sebab keadaan me maksa, patut-lah di-adakan peratoran2 yang sa-umpama ini supaya memudah kan orang2 yang di-tanggongkan oleh si-mati itu mengeluarkan wang untok sara nafkah mereka itu buat sementara waktu.

Tetapi nampak-nya Bil yang di-hadapan kita ini menghadkan sa takat $3,000 sahaja.
Saya berasa hendak bertanya mengapa-kah sharat ini di-hadkan kapada $3,000 sahaja bukan-nya tidak di-hadkan sa-bagai mana yang telah di-sharatkan di bawah Undang2 Provident Fund 1951 yang membolehkan mana2 contributor itu membuat nomination dengan tidak menghadkan banyak mana-kah wang nya yang boleh nominee-nya itu mengambil keluar.
Nampak-nya tujuan Bill yang di hadapan kita ini saperti yang telah di-uchapkan oleh Yang Berhormat Menteri tadi ia-lah hendak menolong kapada tanggongan2 si-mati, umpama nya kapada kanak2-nya yang belum chukup umor yang maseh lagi di bangku sekolah mengeluarkan wang itu dengan serta merta dengan tidak payah lagi menunggu surat kuasa.

kerana ada kala2-nya si-mati itu tidak melantek sa-orang trustee.
Yang sa takat baki lebeh daripada wang $3,000 itu nampak-nya kena-lah juga di masokkan ka-dalam kuasa, jikalau sa kira-nya sa-saorang trustee belum lagi di-lantek.

Mengikut Section 117 (3) ( b) tidak-lah wang Provident Fund ini boleh di-anggap sa-bagai harta pusaka.
Oleh sebab2 ini, maka saya suka hendak mengeluarkan sadikit fikiran sa dengan kerana ada kala-nya saorang nominee telah pun mengambil keluar wang-nya tidak membayarkan kapada orang2 tanggong lain2, umpama-nya an yang jikalau di-lantek sa-kira-nya nominee kapada janda-nya, maka jikalau sa kira-nya janda-nya itu tidak membayar sara nafkah kapada tanggongan2 yang , mithal-nya barangkali anak2-nya lain2 itu bukan-lah anak2-nya sendiri dan ada kala-nya nominee itu di-lantek kapada bapa saudara dan bapa saudara-nya itu mengambil keluar wang itu dengan tidak menghiraukan muslihat2 kapada anak2 saudara-nya yang maseh di-bangku sekolah, atau pun yang tli-dalam kemiskinan.
itu dengan itu Oleh yang demikian saya meminta lah Yang Berhormat Menteri itu mengadakan peratoran2 tambah yang lebeh ketat sadikit supaya ka-atas nominee yang menerima wang2-nya itu atau pun ka-atas kepala kuasa meneri makan wang2 itu oleh kerana wang ini bukan-lah sa-bahagian daripada pusaka hendak-lah di-adakan per atoran.
Sa-takat mana-kah dan sa sa-orang banyak mana-kah tanggongan itu berhak kapada duit itu, sama ada patut-nya atau tidak duit ini di-serahkan kapada Public Trustee supaya wang ini di-kelolakan oleh Public Trustee dan di-perbahagikan tiap2 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3077 wang2 ini kapada tanggongan2 si-mati itu mengikut faraid yang patut di terima oleh tiap2 sa-orang yang menjadi tanggongan kapada si-mati itu.
yang Tuan Haji Rabmat bin Haji Daud (Johor Bahru Barat): Yang Berhormat Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya memberi kan tahniah kapada Kementerian Pela jaran telah mengeshorkan Undang2 ini dan saya berharap juga daripada Kementerian2 yang lain akan mengikut langkah yang sa-umpama ini untok menolong pekerja2 yang telah meninggal dunia bagi waris2-nya, bukan sahaja Kementerian Pelajaran bahkan Kementerian yang lain2 itu pun patut buat yang sa-macham ini.

ini ia-itu Terima kaseh.
Dato Dr Haji Megat Khas (Kuala Kangsar): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya juga sambil menyokong Bill yang suka hendak di-hadapan kita memberi sa-kira-nya fikiran guru2 yang meninggal itu berugama Islam barangkali wang simpanan ini ia-lah termasok kapada harta pusaka juga dan dengan sebab itu hendak-lah di-fara'idzkan oleh waris2-nya dan kalau sa-kira-nya di-adakan wakil nominee dengan bersaorangan, ia-itu timbul, kerana kesusahan-nya akan barangkali kurang kejujoran bagi wakil yang menerima itu dia tidak akan memanjangkan wang yang di-kehen daki bagi menyelenggarakan hal ke susahan puak si-mati itu.
Maka dengan itu, saya juga-lah menyokong macham mana yang telah di-kemukakan oleh Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Sungai Patani tadi ia-itu satu atoran hendak lah di-sediakan terlebeh dahulu supaya wang terkechoh kapada tempat2 yang tidak menasabah.

Tetapi sementara itu juga saya berasa, ia-itu satu tingkatan wang hendak-lah di sampaikan kapada waris si-mati itu untok menolong di-dalam masa dan tempoh yang tertentu sementara mereka itu mengambil surat kuasa-nya masing2.
Dengan itu, saya rasa tidak-lah ada jalan yang wang itu boleh terpusing di kapada yang tempat2 kehendaki.

Terima kaseh.

tidak tidak ini Tuan Mohamed Khir Johari: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya uchapkan terima 3078 kaseh di-atas segala buah2 fikiran yang telah di-keluarkan oleh Ahli2 Yang Berhormat tadi.

Saya suka menerang kan, ia-itu wang yang di-tetapkan sa banyak $3,000 ia-lah dengan ini permintaan daripada wakil guru2 itu sendiri.
Sa-kira-nya mereka itu ber saya lebeh, kehendakkan memang-lah bersetuju sahaja dengan kehendak mereka itu.

pehak Berkenaan dengan tegoran lain atau shor mereka yang berugama Islam, ini saya akan mengambil ingat untok di-bawa kapada Majlis ini bagi di timbangkan bagi masa yang akan datang.

Terima kaseh.

Usul setujukan.

di-kemukakan, dan di- Rang Undang2 di-bachakan kali yang kedua dan di-serahkan kapada Dewan sa-bagai Jawatan-kuasa.

Dewan bersidang sa-bagai Jawatan kuasa.


Rang Undang2 di-timbangkan dalam Jawatan-kuasa.

(Tuan Speaker mempengerusikan meshuarat Jawatan-kuasa) Fasal 1 dan 2 di-perentahkan men daripada Rang sa-bahagian jadi Undang2.

Rang Undang2 di-laporkan dengan tidak ada pindaan: di-bachakan kali yang ketiga dan di-luluskan.
RANG UNDANG2 PERTAROHAN POOL izin Bachaan Kali Yang Kedua dan Ketiga Menteri Muda Hal Ehwail Dalam Negeri (Tuan Hamzah bin Dato' Abu Samah): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya sa-lepas membacha memohon kepala nama Rang Undang2 ini, di dalam bahasa Melayu, membacha keterangan2, penjelasan2 berkenaan dengan Undang2 ini di-dalam bahasa lnggeris, oleh kerana Rang Undang2 ini ada-lah bagi pertama kali-nya di ini dan kedua-nya bawa ka-Dewan di-dalam Rang Undang2 ini, ia-itu teks-nya ada-lah yang rasmi-nya ada lnggeris dan lah di-dalam bahasa 3079 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3080 beberapa mengandongi perkataan teknikal berkaitan dengan Undang2 dan kalau saya berchakap dalam bahasa keban_gsaan, saya bimbang berbangkit satu perkara yang harus mengelirukan.
Oleh itu saya dengan hormat-nya memohon izin supaya saya di-benarkan berbahasa lnggeris, sa-lepas membacha tajok nama Undang2 ini dalam Melayu, di-dalam bahasa lnggeris.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya ingin mengusulkan supaya Rang Undang2 yang bernama, "Suatu Act bagi mem buat peruntokan berkenaan dengan pengeluaran lesen atau penubohan sa buah Lembaga bagi menjalankan atau menganjorkan pertarohan kumpul dan berkenaan dengan perkara2 yang ber sangkutan dengan-nya, di-bacha pada kali yang kedua.
Mr Speaker, Sir, it is common knowledge that many people in this country have for some years been participating in football in betting pools operated in England, and that the number of bets made in the United Kingdom football pools from Malaysia has steadily increased in recent years.

About $2 million worth of pool betting were remitted or sent abroad through Post Offices every year.
Although, Sir, we have been deriving revenue from postage and postal order commission from such pool bettings made to the United Kingdom, at the same time we have been losing a lot by way of foreign exchange in respect of such bets.

It would be to our advantage, therefore, if such betting were to be channelled to Malaysia instead of having to be diverted to some other country.
It is for this reason, therefore, Sir, that a small committee of senior officials was appointed in 1966 to study the proposal to operate football pools in this country; and this Committee, Sir, has found not only that the operation of football pools in this country would prevent the drain of foreign exchange but would also provide a number of benefits.
Firstly, it would provide an additional source of revenue to meet increased development commitments and expenditure to which our Govern ment is at the moment committed.

it would create a Secondly, Sir, it is, therefore, reasonable sigruficant and regular source of funds to sustain and to stimulate football and other sports as weU as social and welfare activities in this country.
And thirdly, it would provide employment and income foc Malaysians who will be employed in the operation of this form of betting.

Furthermore, Sir, football pool is relatively inexpensive and small and to permit this form of betting in this country.

It will also provide local facilities for Malaysians, particularly those who follow the game of soccer, to participate in this enjoyable pastime which might enable them, with some luck, to share in big dividends from a comparatively small investment.
The Government, as a result of this Com mittee's recommendations, has decided to permit a private company to operate the pools for a trial period of two years during which it will be in a position to assess whether or not betting operations to be operated by a company or by a statutory body.
should continue to ensure the Minister Clause 5 of this Bill, Mr Speaker, Sir, provides for the issue of a licence for the collection, operation or promo tion of pool betting by the Minister, and in this case the relevant Minister would be the Minister of Finance.
To enable the smooth and proper running and promo tion of this kind of betting, the Minister is given the power under this Bill to impose conditions or restrictions during the currency of the licence and to revoke such a licence without having to assign any reason therefor.
Where, however, after a two-year trial period, it is found necessary that pool betting should be operated by a statutory body and not by a private company, then the the Bill makes provision establishment of a board the purpose of operating, promoting or managing such pool betting.

for for i.e.

$100,000 of The Government, Sir, has taken up 40 per cent, the $250,000 share capital of this Company, with a view to ensuring that there is proper management of the Company.
and that the profits accruing from the grant of a monopolistic licence are not assigned entirely to private gain.

A 3081 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3082 to thrive and resolution seeking the approval of this House to subscribe this $100,000 in the share capital of the Company will be moved as soon as this Bill has been passed by Honourable Members.

The Football Association of Malaysia, Sir, has also taken up 10% i.e.

$25,000 of the company's share and it is intended to allot a further 10% to the Olympic Council.
It is only right and proper, Sir, that the Football Association of Malaysia be given this opportunity to have a share in this worthwhile venture.

Football and other sports for that matter, Sir.

need financial backing in order to achieve a standard at least comparable to that now achieved by some countries in this part of the world.
Sporting organisa tions would have to have monev, a lot of money, for various projects such as the employment of coaches to carry out training of intensive coaching and school children in schools which are necessary for future and upcoming sportsmen of this country, secondly, to organise big competitions this country, and thirdly, to enable teams to be sent abroad to participate in big international tournaments.
It is not possible, Sir, for the Government to fully subsidise sporting organisations, having regard to its many other com mitments therefore, whatever revenue the Association, i.e.

the Foot ball Association of Malaysia and the Olympic Council derive this source of revenue, i.e.

from betting pool, would go some way towards helping them in their task of building a healthy and vigorous nation through sports.
from and, in Perhaps, Sir, I should only briefly outline the the contribution which introduction of football pools would generally make to revenue.

By agree ment with the promoters in the United Kingdom-the Vernon Pools Limited and Littlewoods Pools Limited-the Government will levy a 25 % tax on the gross stake while the local company would get 16% of the gross stake.
In other words, for every dollar staked as a bet, the Government would get 25 cents while the local company will get 16 cents which will be used by it the purpose of administration, for including the payment of commission to agents and financial support for sport activities.
Thus, out of every dollar bet, 41 cents will definitely be retained the balance of 59 cents will be put into the common pool for distribution as prizes and dividends after deduction of the United Kingdom pool companies expenses and tax.
this country while in The percentage of tax accruing to Government as revenue is, however, subject to review from time to time reasonable period pending after a negotiations the United between Kingdom pools companies with the British Treasury for remission either in whole or in part of the British tax on the stake money remitted to the United Kingdom.
It is estimated that, with the introduction of football pools in this country, the percentage of out .fl.ow of money staked in football pools will be much less than the present practice of direct airmail betting by individual Malaysian bettors with pool promoters in United Kingdom.
the Government but, The question of outflow of money will, however, be kept constantly under if review by the participants expect to share in dividends of the total pool as provided under the scheme, it is unavoidable that a certain portion of the stake money will be remitted and invested in the common pool for distribution as dividends.

One, Sir, cannot have the cake and eat it at the same time.
If our Malaysian nationals are lucky enough, they may even win consider able sums which would lead to an inflow of funds into this country.

In moving this Bill, Sir, the Govern ment is fully encouraged by the very favourable response from the public to the Honourable Prime Minister's announcement regarding the proposed introduction of football pools made in February the Fourth this year at Annual General Meeting of the Foot ball Association of Malaysia.
The positive support given by officials and some members of the Opposition Par ties, sporting organisations and the general public has fortified the Govern ment's view that it would be of benefit 3083 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3084 to this country to have football pools conducted locally.

in the participants, I should now, Sir, like to deal briefly with the main provisions of the Bill.
An important provision of this Bill is Clause 5 which enables the Minister responsible, and in this case as I have said just now, the Honourable Minister of Finance, to prescribe in the licence the terms and conditions under which the operations are to be conducted.

The Minister may revoked the licence reason.


The without assigning any interests of the bettors this case, are protected under Clause 16, wherein it is provided that not later than a date to be named by the Minister, a scheme for the operation, promotion or management of pool betting and betting agencies, of the collection of pool betting will have to be submitted to the Honour able Minister of Finance for his approval.
Such a Scheme, Sir, will have the proper administration of the scheme, for the establishment, maintenance and opera tion of pool betting agencies and the collection or the receiving of pool betting.

Although the provisions of Clause 16 are specially made to apply to a Board.

Clause 27 of the Bill, however, would make the provision of Clause 16 to apply also to a licencee.
Under Clause 16, the Government, therefore, will ensure that this scheme contains sufficient safeguards against any malpractice by licencee or the agencies involved in the conduct of pool betting.

to provide for The Government, Sir, is fully cons cious of the need to ensure that there will be maximum possible security and integrity in respect of the conduct of football betting by the persons or agencies involved.
It is the Govern ment's hope that the operation would be the implemented smoothly and revenue accruing from its introduction will be put to good use for the pur poses of development and the promo tion of social welfare and sporting activities of the country and, I am con fident, Sir, that the Honourable Mem bers of this House who wish to see these objectives realised will support the passage of this Bill.

Sir, I beg to move.

Menteri Muda Kewangan (Dr Ng Kam pob): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya menyokong.
that we on Mr Speaker, Sir, in that he feels Dr Tan Chee Kboon (Batu) (dengan izin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Honourable Assistant Minister of Home Affairs is a little too optimistic and is taking things too much for granted, the optimistic when he ended this Bill that note will have the support of the Members of this House.

I think he is taking for granted this side of the Opposition benches will vote to the orders like sheep according of the Whip on his side of the House.
He knows very well that there are us on this side of the House who are totally opposed to any sort of increase of organised gambling in this country.

the Government knows that there is already in this country far too much gambling.

With your permission, Sir, I shall enumerate a few of them.

There is the Govern ment-sponsored Social Welfare Lot tery, which runs into millions of dollars every month.
There is the Turf Club which is described as the third biggest industry in this country-God alone knows how many millions of dollars change hands every time the horses run on the Turf Club; there is the three digits, whether legal or illegal-perhaps, the Assistant Minister of Home Affairs would care to look into this question of three-digits gambling that is going on in this country; there is this chee fah that is the addiction of the Chinese in this country; there is mahjong; there is cards, whether res pectable or not so respectable, that goes on in the cardrooms of various clubs.
If we do not stop organised gambling from going on, next we will have dog racing in this country.

Now, where do we go from here, Mr Speaker, Sir?

The Government, instead of being very concerned over all these social illness, seeks now to foist on us more gambling.

illegal the Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, we have heard the Honourable Prime Minister saying to the Press, "Well, you know, we: 3085 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3086 cannot control people betting".
The Assistant Minister of Home Affairs has himself told us that close on $2 million is sent out of this country by way of bets on the football pools in the U.K. You know that you cannot control it.

Then, what do you do?

You make it legal.

Now, if we follow that same line of logic and reasoning, may I ask the Honourable Assistant Minister of Home Affairs, since he was in the legal service, "Why can't the Government also legalise the world's oldest profes sion?"
It has been with man since the beginning of time, and he cannot say that that profession does not exist in this fair capital city of Kuala Lumpur and also in the kampongs.

Why should not he seek to legalise it?

I defy the Government to try and legalise the world's oldest profession and let them go and face the P.M.l.P.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Will you support it?

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: I do not support it.

I have not frequented it (Laughter).


But I defy the Government to legalise it along the same line of reasoning.

"You know, you cannot control people placing small bets"; he says that small bets-the words he uses time and again are "small bets"-do not do any harm.

Why should he not legalise the world's oldest profession?

Try and legalise it in Kota Bharu, for example, and see whether the Alliance can survive there.

(Interruption) I do not, although it is very close to Sungei Golok (Laughter).
We all know the evils of gambling.

When this House debated the Racing Turf Club Bill that sought to legalise people, who are not members of the Turf Clubs placing a bet, unfortunately, that Bill went through without the P.M.l.P.

Members and I having a look-see at it.

It just shot the Government knows very well the evils of gambling.
Amongst other things, gambling breaks up families, it breaks up family life, and it leads to all sorts of social evils-from gambling you go on; you lose at it, you are in charge of cash in a company, what you do?

You take $10, $20, put on the football pools with the hope that through the through-like this.

Now, to open the doors wider one million to one chance you will get something big there and something to cover it up.
One needs only to open the newspapers to see that this social evil is a very serious one and instead of trying to curb it, the Government seeks to increase the consequences of the evils of gambling.

I shall not dwell too much on this.

The Members of the P.M.l.P.

I see are raring to have a go at the Government.

They will tell the Govern ment from the Islamic point of view how we should take cognizance of the evils of gambling and not open wide the doors of gambling but try and close the doors.
taken out by Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister of Home Affairs also tells us that in all there is $2 million lost on these small bets every year.

So, to conserve our foreign exchange, we must try and block up this loophole and so we start these football pools.
He is sitting beside the Honourable Assistant Minister of Finance, and his colleague there will tell him that there is a greater loss of foreign exchange from this country, to a tune of $500 millions the foreign interests in this country, not $2 million.

Try and curb that outflow of $500 millions.

What has the Government done to do that?

Now, he talks also, "You know, we get 25 cents in the dollar to the Government, 16 cents in the dollar to the Football Pools, making cents".

Then what happens?
Then what happens?

41 Fifty-nine presumably goes abroad, or comes back again in terms of profits by way of prizes.

Now, it to reason, Sir, that there is stands hardly anyone who knows about the football pools.

Now you open wide the doors.

I notice in the newspapers now, in the sports column, instead of talking about Kilat Club vs Selangor Club in cricket and in hockey, they put football pools every day.
Now, people who have never heard of football pools now say, "I will put two shillings on this and three shillings on that".

What happens?

More and more people parti cipate in it, more and more money goes out-we have heard this autho ritatively that 59 cents in the dollar goes out.

If it comes back by way of cents 3087 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3088 ten times prizes, then you stop foreign exchange from leaving this country.
If it does not, instead of $2 million going out, perhaps, that amount of foreign exchange is lost.

This sort of logic, Mr Speaker, Sir, I cannot fathom.

If the Government wants to allow some to have a of these senior officials little flutter, by all means say so.

Let us be honest about it, do not try logic and reasoning-"Y ou specious know, we try and save foreign cur rency".
Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, to me, at least, this indecent and unseemly haste to get this Bill through this House is really unworthy of the Government.

We have had, on the Order Paper for Monday as item 27 a motion to allow the Government to vote funds for these Football Pools, before the Bill has been passed in this House.

Look at the haste, the unseemly and indecent haste, with which the Government seeks to push this Bill through this House, to put in the cart blatantly before the horse.
Dr Ng Kam Poh: Untok penjelasan, Tuan Speaker.

(Dengan izin) I believe that this Bill was removed from the Order Paper for the first day, and on the second day, too, it was removed from the Order Paper, and there was a motion the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance.

from Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Yes, I know that, Mr Speaker, Sir.

I am talking of the first day that this motion was on the Order Paper.
The Government knows very well that unless the Bill is passed in this House it cannot move the motion.

That is why I say there is an indecent and unseemly haste.

There is another curious feature of this Bill.

that really puzzles me, at least.

This the Assistant told by Bill, we are Minister of Home Affairs will be under the control of the Minister of Finance.

How come the Assistant Minister of Home Affairs is moving this Bill?

I really cannot understand Mr Speaker, Sir.


This Bill gets more and more curious every day when one looks at it in more detail.

Dr Ng Kam Poh: Tuan Yang di Pertua, untok penjelasan.

Perkara ini sa-betul-nya di-Kementerian yang Kewangan, tetapi Perdana Menteri hendak menchadangkan Bill ini.

Oleh sebab itu Yang Berhormat Menteri Muda Hal Ehwal Dalam Negeri hari ini menchadangkan perbahathan Bill ini di-dalam Dewan ini.

ltu sahaja, bukan lain.


Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Kalau sa kira-nya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Yang Berhormat Menteri Muda Kewangan dapat menjelaskan perkara itu meng gunakan bahasa Inggeris kalau sa-kira nya beliau tidak berapa faham apa yang di-katakan oleh saya.

Penjelasan beliau tidak menjelaskan, atau mene rangkan apa yang di-katakan oleh saya.

Dr Ng Kam Poh: Untok penjelasan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, jikalau Ahli Yang Berhonnat daripada Batu tidak faham bahasa kebangsaan, itu bukan kesalahan saya (Ketawa).
this Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, the Bill has not been passed in this House.

But what has happened?

The Chairman has already been appointed.

The Chairman has gone to London to look into this matter-I see, Mr Speaker, Sir, the Chairman is with us today.

As I said, the Govern ment with its overwhelming majority now seeks thing to steamroll through and we perhaps on this side of the House will also be tacked on to I do not know the Government.
whether the Chairman-designate had been sent at the taxpayers' expense to London on this work, because if he had been sent at the taxpayers' expense to look into this matter and if members of the UMNO in their wisdom say, "This is too much for us to stomach in veiw of 1969, and is with drawal-if there is a revolt, a 'place revolution' this House-what happens?
there in Mr Speaker, Sir, this Bill here makes it very clear that "This Act may be cited as the Pool Betting Act, 1967 and shall be deemed to have come into operation on the 1st November, 1967".

This Bill seeks to make it retrospective.

Now, I am sure that the Honourable Assistant Mlinister of Home Affairs., who has been in the legal Service, I 3089 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3090 mention again, will agree with me that any retrospective legislation is bad in law.
There may well be occasions for the Government to introduce retro spective legislations.

Why this hurry?

Why make it 1st of November?

Why cannot we wait till this Bill is passed?

If it is passed by this House, it goes to the Dewan Negara; from the Dewan Negara it travels to get the Royal Assent, and then from that day you make this Bill effective.
Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, I think I am correct in saying that the· operation of the football pools will start, from my information, on the 18th of this month, that is, this Saturday.

The Chairman-designate is here.

If I am wrong, correct me.

By implication, I cannot think of this Bill receiving the Royal Assent, unless from here it travels to the Dewan Negara and from there it is taken by helicopter to the Istana Negara, receiving the Royal Assent by the 18th, Saturday of this week.
Consequently, if I choose to place a little bet on this and it travels to London, and there if I were to win the $2 million prize, what will Little woods and Vemons say?-"Look here, this Bill is not legal yet in your country.

Sorry, chum, you don't get any money".


Now, this is why I say there is unseem ly and indecent haste over this whole fishy business, and the Government would be well advised to look into this legal aspect of it; instead of, "This Bill shall come into effect on the 1st of November, 1967", at least it should say, "This Bill shall come into effect when it receives the Royal Assent", as is the usual case with most of the Bills before this House.
Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, it is also no secret that many people have "jumped the gun".

It is no secret that lots of people have been appointed as licencees under this Bill.

I do know because one organisation that I am connected with has been sending me these Vernons and Littlewoods forms, but I must admit that I have not got a clue as to what is in there.

Consequently, in my simple mind, what do I do?

I threw them into the waste-paper basket.

You see the implication of it?


Postage lost, paper lost, labour lost, I am sure there were many of us in this country who just threw these things into the waste-paper baskets.

thing The other that I wish to commend to the Assistant Minister of Home Affairs is this-the legal side of it.

This organisation that I am connec ted with is on Old Boys' Association.

How come that an Old Boys' Associa tion, amongst its aims and objectives, include the taking on of organised gam bling?
Now, the Assistant Minister of Home Affairs has control over the Registrar of Societies and he would be well advised to ask the Registrar to look and see whether the Old Boys' Associations dotted up and down the country can indulge in this form of gambling.

Do their aims and objec tives permit such Associations taking part I do in organised gambling?

know that the Registrar is so strict that once you say anything about language-The Registrar says, "You know, that is very dangerous.

You can't say it".
You can't say it".

But what about this this is equally dangerous.

• is very popular, from Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister of Home Affairs also tells us, "You know, organised football is very important, very popular".

I do agree that football that the football needs a boost Government and therefore this is a good device.

He, perhaps, has for gotten that there is a Ministry of Cul ture, Youth and Sports, that there is not only a Minister but there is an Assistant Minister.
What are they all doing, if they are not helping organised sports in this country?

And I agree there is need for the Government to help organise sports in this country.

Why should not the Government give such aid out of general revenue?

Why start another form of a gambling?

Take the cricketers.
If the President of the Malayan Cricket Association, in his time he wisdom, in should also have a little flutter connection with the country games in the United Kingdom-and, Mr Spea ker, Sir, the President of the Malayan Cricket Association is also none other than the Assistant Minister of Home Affairs-if he, in his wisdom, also thinks, "You know, if we should have only a little flutter with football, we that next thinks 3091 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3092 little the Roses-Yorkshire should have a flutter with cricket.
You know, you can bet on Yorkshire versus Surrey, Nottingham shire versus Lancashire, or the Battle of versus Lancashire, etc.," what is going to happen to this country?

You start with football, next it is cricket.

We have this badminton House, basketball representatives in this House.

All these people also went football pools, basketball pools.

Then, where do we go from here, Mr Speaker, Sir?


representatives in in game The other thing, Mr Speaker, Sir, is that these are based on football the United Kingdom.

matches in is undoubtedly popular in Football this country.

the I dare challenge Assistant Minister of Home Affairs to tell us how many people in this coun try know about the football teams in the United Kingdom.
I wonder if the Assistant Minister of Home Affairs knows for example, who is leading the Division I in the current football com petition in the United Kingdom, whe ther he knows that Liverpool is leading or who is at the bottom of the First Division in the Football competition in the United Kingdom, or whether he knows that Denis Law of Manchester United, or John Ure of Arsenal were both suspended for fighting the recent between Manchester United and Arsenal.
Now, if he himself cannot know about these things, how on earth can he expect the ra'ayat of this country to know.

The people in Besut, for example, have they ever heard of Arsenal, have they ever heard of Liverpool or Denis Law?
Now, you are asking them to place a bet on a thing that they do not know-"Ini, mini, mina, mo", and they place a bet on it-This is a thing that you are asking them to do and they have not the slightest clue as to anything about if you have 8 draws, you get a million dollars to one dollar that you place on it.

Now, this is a sort of thing that I really cannot understand.

Football is popular.


If a person wants to place a bet on football matches in this country at least, he can read the Straits Times or the Betita Harian and read about them.

I dare say that even in this House people, who are conversant with football in the U.K., can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and the Government is foistering such a prac tice on the people of this country.
Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, Clause 9 (4) of the Bill says that the Members can fix the rules and rates for themselves with the approval of the Minister-and we are told just now that the Minister is the Minister of Finance.

Now, this is a very extra ordinary state of affairs in that members can fix the rules.

I can understand they want to fix the rules.


But, if they fix the rates we are told here that the members need not exceed 10-and then if they in their wisdom say, "Well, you know, it is good thing that we have managed to get into this Board, why don't we vote ourselves $500 a month?"
What is going to happen, Mr Speaker, Sir, as they are I would have allowed thought that the Government, even if it wants to go into such organised gam bling should see to it that the Govern ment, or the Minister, regulates the rules and the rates-not the members voting for themselves anything that they think fit.

I commend this to the Assistant Minister for Home Affairs.

to do so?

The other thing that I wish to draw his attention to is Clause 9 (2).
It says here-to me, at least, the quorum here is a very vague thing-"all question at the meeting of the Board shall be determined by a majority of the mem bers personally present and voting; and each person shall be entitled to cast one vote, and in the event of an equa lity of votes the member presiding shall have a second or casting vote".
Now, in Clause 7 we are told that "The Board shall consist of not more than 10 members, which means this as I see it: if two or three people are pre sent then they decide everything by a majority.
Now, surely one would have thought important thing, where the Assistant Minister for Home Affairs himself has pointed out that there may be irregularities, surely on an important thing like this the Government should state clearly that the quorum shall be five or six and there shall be majority of decision and in the event of equality of votes, the Chair man can or the person presiding can in such an that 3093 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3094 of have a second or casting vote.
But no, I do not know whether it is delibrate or otherwise, but it is left there very vague, and he knows that this Board is going to administer a very large sum-he has told us that $2 million are going out of this country.

Now, we do know for example, that there is a good deal of malpractices associated with the Social Welfare Lottery, and I, myself, have drawn the attention of the Director the Anti-Corruption Agency to this aspect of the Social Welfare Lottery.
I dare say that, once you start a football pool in this coun try, those who are administering it mind you, you have licenses up and down the country-there will be, I am sure, opportunities for malpractices.

And if on the top of all these oppor tunities for malpractices, you have a little flutter you have a quorum that is so vague, then, I think the Govern ment is deliberately trying to make it easy for people who want to indulge in COI'.fllpt practices.

is trading.
is trading.

Now, Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, we know that the Government has gone into Malaya wata.

We know now that the Govern ment has gone into the rubber indus try-now you go in and you come out.

Government the Government is participating in foot ball pools.

We are told it is 40%.

Now, may I ask why cannot the Government be a little more bold and go into participation in the private sector in other affairs?

Transport, for example.


I commend to the Assistant Minister of Home Affairs and ask him to pass it on to the Minister of Transport.

Why should not the Government try to nationalise the transport industry?

We can make far more profit out of that-mana tahu?

If the Gvernment wants to partici pate more and more in the private sector, why should not the Government take the bull by the horns and go into the private sector in a big way and nationalise the transport industry?
I commend this idea to the Assistant Minister for Home Affairs.

Tuan Mustapha bin Ahmad: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya bangun untok menentang Rang Undang2 ini kerana pada pandangan saya .

.

.

.. Mr Speaker: Bangun untok menyo kong-kah, atau menentang.

Tuan Mustaipba bin Ahmad: Menen tang.

Saya ulangi sa-kali lagi, saya bangun kerana menentang Rang Undang2 ini kerana pada pandangan saya Rang Undang2 ini bertentangan dengan semangat Perlembagaan kita sendiri yang mengakui ugama Islam sa-bagai Ugama rasmi.
Yang lebeh utama daripada itu sa-kali pada pan dangan saya dia bertentangan dengan ajaran Islam, ajaran Allah yang mem buat saya, yang membuat Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dan membuat kita semua di-sini.

Dengan alasan dua perkara itu lah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, di-mana2 sahaja perbuatan yang ingkar di-sisi Allah, kami daripada pehak Persatuan Islam Sa-tanah Melayu terns menerus menentang di-dalam Dewan ini.
Ada di-kalangan umat Islam sendiri menggangap kami sa-bagai fahaman kolot, kerana terlampau banyak kami menyedok pandangan kami daripada ajaran Islam, atau pun point of view daripada Islam.

Tetapi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, bagi kami sa-bagai sa-orang Islam, sa-lama kami perchaya ada-nya Allah, sa-lama kami perchaya Allah yang berkuasa, maka sa-lama itu-lah kami merasa ajaran daripada Allah itu lah ajaran yang terbaik sa-kali, ter moden sa-kali dan tidak ada jalan lain kami akan pileh melainkan jalan Allah lah.
Dengan alasan itu-lah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya perchaya kejadian2 yang bertentangan dengan ajaran Islam yang telah achap kali berlaku dalam negara kita .

.

.

.

Mr Speaker: Saya suka hendak mengingatkan kita bukan bahathkan fasal ugama tetapi fasal Bill ini.

Jadi, tolong berchakap tepat pada Bill ini di-mana2 yang tidak betul-nya, atau pun sama sa-kali tidak betul-kah.

Tak usah lah sampai panjang2 sangat.


Tuan Mustapha bin Ahmad: Jadi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya minta izin, sebab dalam soal ini berhubong juga dengan Perlembagaan kita mengatakan ugama Islam ugama rasmi dalam negara ini.

Mi· Speaker: Tak kata di-mana pun.

3()1)5 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3096 Toan Mmtapha bin Ahmacl: J adi.

Rang Undang2 jugi:i. saya akan ini masoki, sebab dia ada hubongan juga dengan ajaran Islam.
Jadi sudah achap kali, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Kerajaan Perikatan melakukan kesalahan2 dalam perkara Islam.

Pernah mereka membuat tok pekong dengan bantuan Kerajaan Pusat, buat berhala, buat gereja sa-lain daripada membuat masjid.

Kemudian sekarang ini pufa mereka itu membuat satu Rang Undang2 Perjudian (Football Pool) di-namakan-nya.

Saya perchaya.
Saya perchaya.

saudara2 kita daripada UMNO yang ada dalam Perikatan itu sendiri ber sama 2 dengan kami di-sini, hati kechil mereka tidak bersetuju dengan per buatan bagini, sebab saperti mana yang di-katakan oleh wakil daripada Batu tadi sa-patut-nya mereka itu sa-benar nya menyokong Rang Undang2 ini.

sa.-olah2~nya bersama2 Tetapi dengan kita orang PAS menentang Rang Undang2 ini.
dia Masharakat di-dalam negara kita bukan-lah sa-benar-nya kita menchegah daripada perbuatan perjudian ini, tetapi nampak-nya makin hari makin meluas, makin hari makin manusia yang tidak faham dan tidak mengerti dan tidak pernah melakukan perjudian dalam negeri ini, sudah pun mahu chuba sa hingga achap kali, Tuan Yang di Pertua, terjadi pertentangan2 di-dalam rumah tangga, terjadi kerosakan2 di dalam perhubongan keluarga dan lain2 lagi akibat daripada perjudian terus menerus.
Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sa-kira-nya benar Kerajaan mahu menchari kewa ngan dengan sumber2 lain, sa-lain dari pada ini, saya rasa dan saya perchaya dapat, sebab Kerajaan Perikatan ada lah terdiri daripada orang bijak pandai semua bahkan ahli2 semua.
Jadi, kalau lah mereka itu tidak-lah membuat satu Undang2 Perjudian sa-chara rasmi, erti nya sa:olah2, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kita menyeru kapada ra'ayat dalam negeri ini mari-lah kita berjudi semua kerana aku telah menghalalkan satu perjudian yang di-namakan football pool ini.

nya dengan kita melakukan kesalahan sa-chara berterangan dan kita mengajak orang lain juga supaya membuat satu perkara yang bertentangan dengan Allah.
Jadi ini-lah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya merasa patut sama sa-kali Undang2 saperti ini menjadi kajian atau per bahathan juga bagi saudara2 kita yang ada dalam UMNO yang ahli di-dalam soal ugama ini dan saya perchaya, saya tidak mahu berchakap banyak dalam masaalah ini, kita mahu melihat sa jauh mana saudara2 kita yang ada dalam UMNO yang pandai dalam soal ugama ini memberi pandangan mereka, apa-kah mereka lebeh mementingkan pandangan daripada Allah, atau pun mereka lebeh mementingkan untok dudok dalam Perikatan ini.
Sa-banyak itu sahaja-lah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

Tuan C. V. Devan Nair (dengan izin): Mr Speaker, Sir, my support and sympathy is entirely with the Honqur able Member for Batu in this matter.

I would not want to wade into this issue like a Salvation Army crusader or, as one of the Honourable Members over there-I forget which consti tuency-has called me.

the Priest for Bungsar.

I am not a priest, nor a prac tising yogi; and if I had started off as a priest I might probably have been unfrocked by now.
Sir, every morning in this House we say a prayer I am not a practising religionist.

I am quite satis fied that Al-mighty God is neither a Christian, nor a Muslim, nor a Hindu, but I do join in this prayer silently.
The English translation reads, "Let Thy blessing descend upon us here assembled, and grant that we may treat and consider all matters that shall come under our deliberations in so just and faithful a manner as to promote Thy honour" -how football pools and gam bling can promote the Al-mighty's honour escapes me, Sir-"and Glory, and to advance the peace prosperity and welfare"-"welfare of Malaysia and its inhabitants : " I think this Bill, Sir, in my humble opinion goes against the spirit of that prayer.
Dalam pandangan Islam, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalau kita melakukan satu kesalahan sa-chara diam2, lain bedza- Sir, this country is going through difficult times-economically, the price of rubber is down, there is need for 3097 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3098 one would economic expansion, and need for discipline-and have thought, Sir, the ideal, the social ideal we would have set before ourselves would not perhaps have been spartan, spartan rigidities, spartan asceticism, and so on, but probably nearer the ideal of Athens.
But here we seem to be deriving our values neither from sparta nor Athens, but from Babylon, Byzantium, and later on perhaps move on to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Sir, I would have thought that our adminis tration would have been primarily concerned with meeting the very serious social, economic and political chal lenges before this country.

I am not saying that we should completely stifle the gambling instinct.
The gambling instinct is a fact of live and we have to there should be any need to expose the people to greater exploitation of the gambling instinct, whether that would be in the interests of the country, remains highly dubious.
it, but whether live with involved themselves The Honourable Member for Batu has pointed out the dangers of mal practices arising with all these licencees running loose in the country; all kinds of malpractices can arise, and members of the Government too would probably find in settling matters of malpractices arising from football pools and betting and so on, instead of concentrating th.eir entire energy on far more vital fundamental issues before the country.
The only consolation that I can see in this Bill but that is not much of a consolation is that the Chairman of this Board will be the former Honourable Minister for Home Affairs.

The fact that a man of the undoubted integrity and recti tude of former Honourable Minister of Home Affairs is going to be incharge, Sir, will not help.
This bill is not going to be improved by putting the Honourable ex-Minister in charge, nor will it derive any dignity ultimately from having a man of his calibre in charge; and I think it will be a complete waste of the talents and the skills and the obvious calibre of a man like him.

I would plead Sir, not as a Salvation Army type-that this the is not the kind of Bill which should be presented to our country at this stage, or at any stage.

The possibilities of malpractices are there.


We are intro ducing values into our society which are not going to be in accord with our prayer here-that what we do in this House will be for the welfare of the country.
There are many things we can import from England, desirable things, but this is one of the undesirable imports which we are going to get from the United Kingdom, and I hope, Sir, that this House should be allowed to vote on this matter not on a party basis : we would the Honourable the Prime Minister and the Ministers sitting on the Govern ment benches that the Whip be with drawn and that every member of this House be allowed to vote in accor dance with his conscience and not in accordance with party instructions in the matter.
Thank you, Sir.

suggest to Tuan D. R. Seenivasagam (lpoh) izin): Mr Speaker, Sir, in (dengan debating this Bill, I think the essential question before us is not whether individually we like gambling, or we Jo not like gambling.

What is before us is this-whether this Bill, as the Member for Bungsar has said, is in the interests of the country and the people.
Mr Speaker, Sir, I think it was in the Readers Digest some months back that a commentator in an interview with the Honourable Prime Minister said that the Prime Minister, in so many words, had told him that during the height of the people of Malaysia were still drinking, gambling, wining and dancing, and we were a nation of gamblers, drinkers and winers, etc.
Now, this Bill, there fore, the statement in the Readers Digest which comes from the Prime Minister himself; and since the Government in power has that opinion of the people of Malaysia, I think, the Bill, in their view, must be proper and right to come before this House.

As far as we are concerned, we cannot support, legalise, naked gambling of this nature.

But the .
But the .

greatest danger is not in the Pool itself; the greatest danger is the in keeping with the Emergency, is only 3099 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3100 in which introduced land deals, to run the lotteries-through manner this organisation, like the turf clubs, may be mani pulated for the personal benefit of a handful of people.

One has only to bear in mind the remarks made by the Honourable Member for Batu with regard to possible corrupt practices, into mal-practices, being this organisation.
One has only to look at the three-digits that are being run by the turf clubs.

I think all of us know the manipulation, the hundreds, the millions of dollars thousands, certain people make in the· turf clubs through giving through three-digit out agencies character them they make their money.

It is known, and I have no doubt that the new Anti Corruption Department will certainly have a look into how these deals are concluded by some of the turf clubs in Malaysia.
It is possible for the same thing to happen as far as these Pool organisation is concerned and, here, I agree that it is at least a redeeming feature that we have the Honourable Member for Johore Timor to head this organisation at the moment, and I can only say this : we appeal to see that in this organisation, at least, there is no room for comment which is now so frequent and so true with regard to turf clubs in Malaysia.
least for to him Mr Speaker, Sir, we oppose this Bill on the principle that gambling cannot and should not be legalised, as it is being done in this case, and particularly on events that have taken place outside our country.

Secondly, again I am no priest and no prophet, but I say this : certainly from what I understand from the Islamic faith, this is against all tenets of Islamic faith.

If you can do this there is nothing else that can offend a this country.

Thank you, Sir.
Thank you, Sir.

religion in Nik Abdul Aziz bin Nik Mat (Kelantan Hilir): Tuan Speaker yang di-hormati, saya tahu bahawa usul ini di-bawakan kerana kita berkehendak kan wang, tetapi Kerajaan tentu ingat bahawa kebanyakan daripada puncha2 wang kita sendiri sekat dan kita itu anggap dia tidak baik saperti rasuah kita sekat, wang menyeludop kita sekat.

Jadi saya menarek perhatian Dewan ini, perlu kita sekat wang daripada puncha judi ini sa-bagaimana yang kita sekat puncha wang dengan chara lain.
Perjudian ini umum-nya bukan sahaja berjudi bola, bukan sahaja berjudi loteri, umum-nya tetap tidak sa-laras dengan dasar pembangu nan kita.

Sa-tengah dari dasar pem bangunan kita yang kita mengadakan sekolah2, daripada rendah sampai kapada sekolah menengah, sampai kapada sekolah Universiti.

Sekolah dasar-nya memang menchanai fikiran, kita melateh akal fikiran manusia supaya cherdek.
sekolah yang Kita mengadakan Ilmu Hisab, kita mengadakan makmal sains, kedua2 ini chontoh yang terang dan tegas bahawa kita hendak memimpin manusia me nuju kapada kecherdekan.

Kita meng adakan Ilmu Hisab supaya manusia boleh hidup dengan selamat, menge tahui perkara2 depan dengan chara yang betul dan sah.

Bagitu kita mengada kan makmal sains untok manusia benda2 mengetahui datang untok kemuslihatan manusfa dengan chara yang sah dan halal.
Tetapi judi ada-kah sa-orang ahli ilmu hisab yang bijak dapat mengetahui chara2 ke menangan dalam masaalah judi, beri satu chara ilmu hisab untok memboleh kan saya menang.

Saya yang berserban, saya yang berjanggut, saya sanggup berjudi, kalau saya ada mempunyai ilmu hisab yang di-ajar sa-chara akademik dalam sekolah, atau Univer siti.

Mari-lah sa-orang ahli ilmu hisab dalam Universiti sa-kali pun dia tidak akan memberi kapada manusia sa chara yang sah bagaimana chara hendak menjadi menang dan kalah.
Jadi kita menghabiskan wang berjuta2, juta, untok membolehkan beratus Ilmu Hisab, manusia mengetahui kemudian serentak dengan itu juga kita membodohkan manusia membuka peluang judi supaya manusia tertarek sa-mula ka-belakang.

Ilmu hisab maju ka-hadapan, ilmu-judi membawa manusia ka-belakang.

Ini arti-nya Kerajaan mengadakan hospital dan itu Kerajaan mengadakan bersama 3101 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3102 kolam untok membiakkan nyamok2 tempat itu.
10 juta kita mengadakan wang untok sa-buah hospital membuat manusia sehat, tetapi 10 juta pula kita mem belanjakan wang untok memelihara nyamok, untok memelihara kuman; ini satu perkara bodoh dan toloL tentu sudah Yang kedua, bila kita yakin, judi ini membawa manusia hala ka-belakang menghabiskan wang dengan chara tidak tentu hala.

Hal ini akan melihat kan kanak2 sekolah bagaimana yang di-sebut2kan tadi.

Anak2 sekolah yang maseh mentah suka mengeluarkan wang dengan chara yang bagini.
Kita memimpin anak2 baik yang sudah dewasa, memimpin supaya mereka itu menggunakan sa-tiap sen daripada wang mereka itu dengan chara yang halal.

Berniaga walau pun boleh jadi rugi, tetapi ada ilmu hisab nya, ada peratoran-nya, ada chara dan tektik-nya untok menentukan untong dan rugi, tetapi budak mana dan orang dewasa mana bahkan Menteri mana sanggup membolehkan dia itu untong daripada judi?

Tidak ada ilmu hisab dan tidak ada makmal sains yang membolehkan mereka itu mengerti keuntongan.
Itu sa-chara rengkas.

Ketiga, judi merupakan pertentangan dengan dasar kita.

Kita menghabiskan wang untok membelanjakan kapada Majlis Ugama Islam.

Kita menghabis kan berapa ribu juta sa-satahun untok perbelanjaan Majlis Ugama Islam untok Imam, untok Khatib, untok Khutbah, dalam Surau-nya, dalam Masjid, dalam Madrasah, dalam radio, dalam talivishen, kita kempen supaya manusia berugama.
Judi sa-genap tetap di-tentang oleh Ahli2 ugama, oleh Imam, oleh Khatib, oleh pensharah radio, oleh pensharah talivi Jadi kita shen dan sa-bagai-nya.

membelanjakan perkara untok memajukan ugama; di-sabelah sini kita dengan sa-chara terang2, bukan dengan sa-chara senyap2 kita menentang ugama; ini kerja sunggoh2 tidak layak timbul daripada sa-orang Ahli Dewan yang di-pileh oleh ra'ayat dengan anggapan mereka itu semua orang cherdek.
Ini boleh jadi di-buat tidak oleh manusia dalam hutan, o1eh orang yang tidak tahu apa arti hidup, tidak tahu ilmu hisab, tahu apa makmal sains, tetapi kita ada Kemen terian Pelajaran, ada Kementerian Sains, kita pula hendak mengadakan judi, sunggoh2 saya kagom, dan saya merasa malu mendengar uchapan Yang Berhormat di-belakang saya bahawa kita pagi2 berdo'a, dan saya beri tahu pada Yang Berhormat Tuan Speaker, bahawa kalau sunggoh Rang Undang2 ini di-halalkan, maka saya di-masa besok2 dan di-masa hadapan insha' allah, saya berdo'a sa-mata2 hormat pada do'a sahaja.
Saya tahu do'a ini bukan berdo'a, tetapi bacha do'a sahaja.

Oleh kerana do'a itu telah di-tulis dan di-bacha, satu istiadat bukan sunggoh2 merupakan ibadat, dia telah merupa kan satu sistem bagaimana sa-orang Polis berjalan dengan peratoran-nya, berjalan dengan hentak kaki-nya.

Bagitu-lah keadaan saya besok2, saya kata terang bahawa saya chuma bacha do'a, tetapi saya bukan berdo'a.
soal-nya kerana tentu Keempat, saya ingat, tetapi saya ini orang baharu, satu masa dahulu Dewan ini telah meluluskan satu Undang2, ia-itu lebeh kurang bagini lab, ia-itu minum arak telah di-haramkan dalam Jamuan2 Negara bagitu-lah lebeh kurang-nya.

Saya soal, kalau sunggoh lah hal ini benar, ia-itu arak itu di satu minuman haramkan menjadi apa di negara, haramkan.

Sudah jawab-nya kerana hormat kapada ugama.


Jadi kalau tidak arak kita haramkan dengan sebab lain dari sebab hormat kan ugama, maka kerana apa kita tidak boleh haramkan judi, kerana kita hormatkan ugama sedangkan dalam Islam taraf arak dan taraf judi satu; sa-sunggoh-nya arak dan judi kedua2 sa-tanding dan sa-tempat.

Jadi kalau di-sana kita tahu hormat, di-sini kita tidak hormatkan, apa arti?

Ada-kah dunia ini kita yang , membuat, tidak.

Dunia ini bukan kita punya, orang lain punya yang di-sebut Tuhan.
Baik dalam Kristian pun tahu, baik dalam Islam pun tahu, dalam Buddha pun tahu.

Jadi semua dalam dunia ini bukan manusia punya, kepunyaan Tuhan.

Kalau kita hormatkan arak, 3103 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3104 kita haramkan arak kerana hormatkan Tuhan, kerana apa kita tidak sanggup haramkan judi.

Di-sana kita hormat di-sini kita ta'hormat, laksana budak maseh berhingus.

Ini satu perkara yang mendukachitakan.


Tadi ada sa-orang Ahli Yang Ber hormat kita sebutkan kerana apa untok hendak membolehkan wang ini, kita tidak menjadikan hak negara pengang kutan dan sa-bagai-nya.

Boleh jadi, pehak yang berkenaan tidak mahu menjadikan hak negara akan pengang kutan dan sa-bagai-nya kerana takut negara Eropah menganggap kita ini kominis.
Jadi barangkali mereka itu takut, tetapi kalau kita sanggup takut ka-negara Eropah mengechap kita kominis, kenapa kita tak sanggup takut kapada Tuhan.

Takut2 Tuhan marah pada kita, kerana kita menghalalkan ini barang yang di-haram.

Perkara tidak boleh perkara yang terang2 perkara yang membawa kapada keri butan.
Boleh jadi pehak2 yang berke naan menganggap bahawa kalau-lah judi ini kita hargakan dengan harga sa-ringgit mithal-nya boleh jadi mereka itu anggap yang ra'ayat chuma rugi sa-ringgi sahaja, tetapi pehak yang berkenaan tahu-kah saya sa-bagai sa orang kampong, datang daripada kam pong dan desa, saya tahu banyak daripada penarek2 teksi roda tiga ini tersekat yang kebolehan-nya sangat2 dua ringgit, tiga ringgit sa-hari, banyak mereka itu membuat tempat simpan duit, membuat tempat simpanan wang sampai 30 ringgit, 40 ringgit, 50 ringgit, sampai tiga empat bulan dapat 50 ringgit, semua sa-kali mereka tikam loteri dan sa-bagai-nya.
Ini sunggoh berarti Kerajaan pun bekerjasama menghabiskan peloh ra'ayat, mengha biskan tenaga ra'ayat kapada barang yang sia-sia.

Mereka itu Tuan Speaker: Masa sudah sampai pukul satu.

Tuan Nik Abdul Aziz bin Nik Mat: Terima kaseh.

Tuan Speaker: Persidangan di tempohkan sa-hingga pukul empat pe tang hari ini.

Persidangan di-tanggohkan pada pu kul 1.00 tengah hari.

Persidangan di-sambong sa-mula pada pukul 4.00 petang.
(Tuan Yang di-Pertua mempenge rusikan meshuarat) PERSIDANGAN MAJLIS MESHUARAT DI-LANJUTKAN DAN PENANGGOHAN PADA SA TU MASA YANG TIDAK DI-TETAPKAN-(USUL) Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya mohon menchadang kan: la-itu sunggoh pun telah ada sharat2 yang di-tetapkan dalam Peratoran Meshuarat 12, Majlis ini tidak akan di-tanggohkan hingga semua sa-kali urusan Kerajaan yang ada di dalam Atoran Urusan Meshuarat hari ini telah selesai di-binchangkan dan apabila tamat meshuarat, majlis ini akan di-tanggoh kan hingga satu masa yang tidak di-tetapkan.
Tan Sri Haji Sardon: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya menyokong.

Usul di-kemukakan, dan di-persetuju kan. Di-putuskan; la-itu sunggoh pun telah ada sharat2 yang di-tetapkan dalam Peratoran Meshuarat 12, Majlis ini tidak akan di-tanggohkan hingga semua sa-kali urusan Kerajaan yang ada di dalam Atoran Urusan Meshuarat hari ini telah selesai di-binchangkan dan apabila tamat Meshuarat Majlis ini di-tanggohkan hingga satu masa yang tidak di-tetapkan.
RANG UNDANG2 PERTAROHAN POOL Bachaan Kali Yang Kedua dan Ketiga Perbahathan di-sambong sa-mula.

Tuan Nik Abdul Aziz bin Nik Mat: Tuan Speaker yang di-hormat saya ingin menyambong perchakapan saya tadi.
Sa-belum daripada saya menyam bong, saya ulas lagi, ia-itu judi tidak sa-laras dengan dasar pembangunan kita khas-nya pembangunan pelajaran, ke rana pelajaran membawa manusia ka hadapan, dengan Ilmu Hisab-nya, dan dengan Makmal Sains-nya manakala judi akan membekukan otak manusia, membuat manusia hidup dalam teka dan angan, khayal dan agak.
Yang kedua, tidak sa-laras judi dengan penat lelah yang di-buat oleh Jabatan Majlis2 Ugama Islam seluroh nya, baik dari segi majlis Ugama, baik 3105 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3106 di-masjid, baik di-radio, di-talivishen, dan sa-bagai-nya.

ia-itu judi ada-lah Yang ketiga, judi tidak sarupa dengan dasar pengharaman arak yang telah kita buat dalam Majlis2 Negara.

Seka saya sambong perkara yang rang satu keempat usaha menambah lagi bilangan orang yang gila dan menambah lagi pem bunoh.
Bila kita melawat2 ka-hospital2 gila Tanjong Rambutan dan sa-bagai nya, kita boleh buat satu banchi chara statistics di-sana banyak terdapat orang2 gila kerana kalah judi, dan bagitu juga kita akan jumpa kes2 jenayah dalam fail Polis dan sa-bagai-nya, kita banyak akan jumpa orang2 yang kena bunoh, orang yang kena rompak, kena samun, kerana sebab judi.

Dan ba haru2 telah mengetahu'i agak-nya, bahawa di-sana ada sa orang China Seremban, di-bunoh di Singapura, kerana dia menang judi.

Itu dari segi pemikiran.


ini Dewan Sa-takat ini saya bawa keburokan judi dari segi pemikiran.

Pemikiran yang telah kita tahu bagaimana nilai nya dan bagaimana penghargaan-nya.

Sekarang saya bawa Dewan mendengar keburokan judi dari segi ugama.

Ugama yang kita susah payah resmikan dan susah payah kita menghabiskan masa kita, tenaga kita, untok kita meresmi kan dia.

Islam mengechap judi sa bagai Rijs (atau di-sebut najis).
Biar lah saya gunakan kalimah yang dapat kita ketahui: semua, ia-itu kalimah "maksiat".

ini dengan Tuan Speaker, kita banyak membuat seruan kapada ra'ayat Malaysia bahawa kamu semua di-minta hidup dan ta'at kapada Malaysia tidak berbelah bagi.
Kita sebut kapada bangsa Melayu dan kita sebut kapada orang China, dan kita sebut kapada orang India supaya mereka itu hidup ta'at pada Malaysia, dengan tidak ber belah bagi, kerana kita anggap ber belah bagi itu merupakan satu pender hakaan, oleh kerana penderhakaan itu sa-perkara kotor, maka dengan sebab itu kita selalu memberi ingat kapada pendudok Malaysia supaya mereka itu sunggoh2 hidup dengan tidak berbelah bagi.
Sedangkan Kera- jaan, baik Kerajaan Malaysia baik: Kerajaan mana sekali pun chuma tukang memungut wang, mereka me mungut wang daripada ra'ayat, Kera jaan kita pun tukang memungut wang daripada ra'ayat dan mengerahkan wang itu untok jalan2 raya dan sa bagai-nya.

juga Kerajaan Amerika tukang memungut wang ra'ayat.

Jadi kalau Kerajaan di-dunia ini, yang telah meng ambil wang daripada ra'ayat pun telah meminta daripada ra'ayat tundok ka pada mereka inikan pula Tuhan.
Tuhan bukan mengambil benda daripada kita, dia memberi kapada kita 100 peratus maka lebeh mustahak kita hidup di bawah Undang2-nya dengan tidak ber belah bagi.

Lebeh mustahak kita beri kera'ian kita kapada Tuhan kita dengan tidak berbelah bagi kerana dia memberi kapada kita 100 peratus dan langsong apa dia perkara daripada kita.
Kalau Kera jaan yang mengambil 100 peratus dari· pada kita, pun telah di-minta ta'at kapada-nya dengan tidak berbelah bagi maka lebeh2 lagi Tuhan yang tahu memberi tidak tahu mengambil lebeh perlu kita mesti ta'at kapada-nya.

Walau bagaimana pun maka tetap ma'siat dan merupakan penderhakaan maka perlu lah kita jauhkan diri kita sa-bagai mana yang kita minta daripada ra'ayat kita tidak berbelah bagi kapada kita.
tidak mengambil supaya hidup tundok dan judi yang Tuan, sa-bagaimana saya sebutkan tadi dasar kita mengadakan judi ada-lah kita hendak wang, satu.

Yang kedua, boleh jadi kerana kita terturut2 dengan Kerajaan Barat oleh kerana di-Barat mengadakan judi, maka kita pun mengekor2 dia membuat judi.

Saya menyoal sampai ka-mana kita akan turut Kerajaan Barat; Kerajaan Barat judi kita mengadakan mengadakan judi.
Kerajaan Barat hari ini mengada kan satt1 Undang2 menghalalkan homo sexual, atau pun yang di-sebutkan liwat dan sa-bagai-nya, ada-kah kita juga mahu mengekor-nya menjadi pak turut dengan tidak ada sekatan, dengan tidak ada batasan.

Boleh jadi di-satu masa lepas daripada judi ini ada lagi lain sa-kurang2 benda kotor benda ia-itu saya yang sebutkan tadi, 3107 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3108 masaalah homosexual, boleh jadi.

ini sunggoh2 and clumsily executed excursion into the realm of gambling.
Akhir-nya, saya tidak payah pan jangkan perchakapan saya untok mem burokkan perkara yang telah burok ini, chuma saya beri ingat boleh jadi pehak Kerajaan, atau pehak penyokong mahu lagi bawa nama2 Khalifah di-hadapan saya-di-hadapan Dewan ini sa-bagai mana yang telah di-bawa nama Khalifah Almuktasim dua tiga hari lepas untok menghalalkan perkataan mereka itu dalam perkara membena gereja dan tok-pekong, saya harap kalau hendak sebut Khalifah sebut-lah Khalifah yang awal-jenarasi yang pertama.
Kita ada Khalifah empat, kita ada Nabi-kita ada Khalifah Abu Bakar, Omar, Osman, Ali.

Jangan pula chari yarn~ Khalifah 1,000 tahun datang-nya sa-lepas dari pada Nabi Muhammad, kalau kita hendak bawa dalil bawa dalil orang yang pertama-peringkat yang per tama kerana jenarasi yang paling baik sa-kali ia-lah jenarasi saya kata Nabi Muhammad Almuktasim bila timbul nya beratus tahun, kemudian bagaimana kita hendak buat dalil dengan-nya !

satu.
satu.

Yang kedua pula mengenai kitab, bukan sa-barang kitab, kalau di hadapan kita sudah ada kitab-nya ada Kor'an-nya, ada Hadis-nya, kenapa kita bawa kitab yang tidak ada harga nya begini.

Kalau sunggoh awak b.endak memperhargakan kitab sebut kan nama kitab, Kor'an-kah.

Hadis kah, jangan di-bawa kitab2 orang yang tidak ada dalam senarai hujah.

Ini perkara yang perlu di-ingat dan perlu di-ketahui oleh pehak penyokong khas nya.
Akhir-nya saya minta pehak me nyokong khas-nya pehak Kerajaan, saya minta berfikir lagi saya tidak minta mereka itu malu, kerana malu ia-lah di-peringkat yang kedua, peringkat yang pertama ia-Iah berfikir dahulu lepas itu kalau hendak malu, malu-lah.

Sekian lah, terima kaseh.


Tuan Lim Kean Siew: Mr Speaker, Sir, after listening to the Memb~rs of the Opposition, even those Members on the other side who have not quite made up their minds and will have made up their minds, we must come to the con clusion that this Bill is nothing more than an ill-conceived, badly planned, The speakers on this side of the House have not touched upon the provisions of the Bill itself.

They have dealt so far mostly with the moral and religious grounds of the Bill.
I will try to deal with the other aspects which have so far not been dealt with.

that We have heard of the moral and religious implications of this Bill.

We have also been informed that those people who may not be religious are morally against the Bill.

But there is one thing else with regard to this aspect of the Bill that we have got to consi der, and the psychological is aspect of the encouragement of pool gambling in this country.
Today, we see children (boys and girls) running lottery around tickets.

We have now in this countrv a growing mental attitude which is bad for our country and which is this: there are more and more people now who have developed the attitude that they should try to get something for nothing.

This ten-percenter attitude, attitude of people who want to go into business, who want to go into professions and who want to go into activities which will earn them that 10%-the ten perceter man.
selling streets the tickets around with Now, we are going to have Pools.

So, we get more and more people in running their hands marking out prospective winners in football games in the hope of getting something for very little, and the time will soon come when school children might be having foot ball pool tickets under their exercise books marking out those tickets in the hope of getting something for very little.. Are we going to become the the East?
Our second Macau of children go to school and they are told that no one can succeed without working hard.

They are told, "You should not gamble".

They are told.

"You should be honest'"'.

As soon as they come out of school, they see signs, which no doubt will be put up, encouraging them to gamble.

There fore, psychologically, we must accept that any encouragement of gambling, 3109 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3110 especially on a national-wide scale, is bad.
Now, let us come to the next point which is this: will our national interests be served if this Bill is passed?

Today, Malaya is what is commonly referred to as a developing nation.

Everything we spend, all our efforts should be directed towards one end, and that is to increase productivity, to get the best out of every investment we put.

This Bill, what constructive purpose has it got?

Does it encourage football in this country?

No!


It teaches peo ple to look into television sets for football games in England.

It encou rages sales of television sets, perhaps.

Then, it encourages people to bet.

It is neither a good supply for labour, for employment, nor it is a good utilisation of our capital.

Perhaps, the only excuse that the Government has got in this Bill is to say that it may be financially benefiting to this coun try, because we must admit that it is not a health exercise.
So, the Govern ment will say that it is of financial benefit to this country and on this.

I would like to say, here and now, that it is not.

Mr Speaker, Sir, what did the Mover of this motion have to say when he was presenting this Bill this morning?
He said this: that for every dollar that is put on a ticket, the Government stands to gain or earn 25 cents-in other words, one quarter of it-and that the agency fees, which will be paid to this Board and which shall help to swell its funds, will be 16 cents.

Therefore, the Government and this country will earn something like 41 cents and 59 cents will be exported out of this country.
that stated further The Honourable Mover of this motion today, according to figures obtainable, about $2 million are being exported every year out of the country.

He said that the Government will then save some thing of this.

But how much does the Government hope to save if, in fact, a sum of $2 million is being exported out of this country?
If the Government will hope to make $500,000-and in order that the Government may make more than $500,000 the Government that much money only must increase, or help to increase, the number of people betting in this pool process, or indulging in this game.

This would mean to say that if the Government hopes to get $1 million per year, it will hope that $4 million would have been spent in the country on the Pools.

If that is so, then about $2 million would be exported out of this country.
So, is this kind of logic-that if we can tax 25 cents, we could have made 25 cents profit and, therefore, we must encourage gambling-worth it?

I say, "No".

Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, if you are going to increase the bets on the Pools, you are going to decrease the number of people buying Social and Welfare Lottery tickets, because is floating around.
Secondly, if you hope to make money on the duty, you have got to encourage gambling, which means more money will be exported overseas, money which we want, money which we have been going around the world trying to collect by means of 7 !

% loans.

This money which we have been trying so hard to get into this country will be exported.

Therefore, from the national point of view.

what have we organised by this Pool system?


We have only organised one thing: we have organised a better export drive for our Malayan dollar.

We are allowing a foreign organisation to form a monopoly in this country-Vernons and Littlewoods, I believe, who are the biggest pool operators in England to come this country with a licence legitimately to collect money to export it back to England.
into to time Mr Speaker, Sir, the Government can, of course, also say that under Clause 19 of the Bill, "the Board may time distribute any from moneys forming part of the funds of the Board and not required by it in the exercise of its functions for all or any the the following purposes-(a) of promotion of sport generally in the Federation including the provision of playing fields; and (h) such social and welfare purposes as may be pres cribed."
Now, I have already said that for one dollar, 25 cents go to Govern ment and 59 cents are exported, leaving 16 cents for commission fees.

From which source will we get the 3111 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3112 funds of the Board?

Obviously from the 16 cents, because Government is taking 25 cents and 59 cents will be exported.

So, the funds of the Board will have to come from the 16 cents which, as the Honourable Mover of this motion has informed this House, shall be agency commission or agency fees.
These fees, if we are to under stand it, are fees to be paid to the Board, so that the Board can pay to their agents-we also know from pre vious speakers that agencies have been or are in the process of being esta blished.
These agents throughout the country, acting for this big monopoly will be getting agency fees; but the Government has not told us, and I wish the Honourable Mover will tell this House categocically, how much of these sixteen cents is going to sub-agents and sub-sub-agents and how much will be to the Board itself.
It may going be cents out of ten the sixteen cents may go to the agen cies or in which the sub-agencies, event the sub-agencies will have to sell more pool tickets, in order to get enough money, or may be out of the sixteen cents, fourteen cents will go to the sub-agencies, leaving only two cents for the Board.

Now, how much funds will the Board hope to collect in one year or in two years?
that only Mr Speaker, Sir, we do not yet know definitely how much the Government expects to earn from this and whether there has been any proper examination into this project.

We do not know how much betting is going to increase in this country.

Therefore, we do not know how much funds the Govern ment hopes the Board to earn and how much of the funds will be used.
Finally, we have been told that $2 million have been exported out of this country for the purposes of the Pool, but we have not been told how much of this $2 million are in fact moneys expended by servicemen and their wives serving in this country.

We do not know, out of this $2 million, how much in fact can be attributable to the Malayan people in Malaya, indulging in this pool.
May be this $2 million a year exported may be almost totally coming from servicemen living serving in Malaysia; and if you consi der it this way it is not much.

Let us say that five- thousand servicemen plus thousand wives indulge $200 a five year.

This would .

account for $2 million a year.

If they indulge '$200 a year per person, they are only spending 65 cents a day, which is not much.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Government also has not fixed the agency .
fees and has not set out a proper scheme by which agents may be appointed.

We are told that agents will be nominated by the Board.

That, Sir, is a very dan gerous thing, because it will allow, as my Honourable colleague, the Member for Batu has said, for favouritism and encouragement of paternalism, giving jobs to those people who have served a useful political function ana who have to be rewarded some time.
It may also be an encouragement to ineffi ciency, because these people are not chosen by a proper system of tender or system of results.

Mr Speaker, Sir, for these reasons, I would like to move that this Bill be read a second time six months hence, except for the fact that we do not have enough Opposition Members in this House to make such a move effective.
therefore, end by asking I will, Members on the other side to consider whether or not they should at least move that this Bill be read a second time six months hence.

in order that proper figures may be given to us and in order that proper calculations be made before we finally vote on this Bill, and when they do that I ask them to remember Clause 20 of the Bill.

Clause 20 allows any person above the age of eighteen yearg to buy a coupon or a ticket.
We have been told so many times in this House that boys in the University, people who are young, should not in politics, because they are too young, and they cannot decide for themselves properly.

If they are too young to indulge in politics, are they not too young to indulge in the Pools?

Thank you.

themselves involve Tuan T. Mahima Singh (Port Dickson): Mr Speaker, Sir, it is very surprising the Opposition has found reasons to condemn this Bill.
In that 3113 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3114 It only hopes supporting this Bill, I would say that what the Government intends to do is only to legalise what is now going on illegally.

to prevent money going out without any control over the money.

This Bill does not encourage people to gamble who do not wish to gamble, but those who wish to gamble have to be brought under control.

We have seen attempts in other countries where they have tried to stop liquor, and we all know that liquor if taken in excess is bad.
But what happened?

It only produced black marketing, corruption and smug gling, with the result that the object of preventing liquOT was not achieved.

In too, if we could prevent this case, gambling it would be a very good thing, but knowing that we are not able to prevent gambling, we intend to legalise it.

We have liquor shops all over the town, but nobody forces a teethtotaller to drink liquor.

We have things being sold in the town that are not welcomed to one group of people.
Pork is sold in the town, beef is sold in the town, but people who wish to avoid them are at liberty to do so, and by passing this Bill, no new gambling would be encouraged, only gambling that is now going on will be brought under control.

For these reasons, Sir, I support the Bill.

Tuan Ahmad bin Arshad (Muar Utara): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya bangun turut sama berbahath atas usul yang ada di-hadapan kita ini.
Saya saya berchakap tujuan hendak membahathkan ma'ana judi sebab judi di-sisi Islam sudah terang haram.
ini bukan Saya menyokong Rang Undang2 ini, saya memandang pada segi mashara kat yang mana manusia kita di Malaysia ini telah berleluas dengan judi bola ini, sama ada mereka mem beli kopon2 daripada luar negeri ter masok-lah juga mereka mengadakan pertarongan perjudian waktu per lawanan bola yang ada dalam negeri ini khas-nya sa-kira-nya permainan itu atau perlawanan yang di-datangkan oleh pasokan daripada luar negeri.
Atas kejadian ini, Tuan Yang di Pertua, kita kena memikirkan keadaan manusia yang sudah bagini, maka munchul-lah Undang2 ini.

Tujuan Undang2 ini supaya dapat mengawal manusia yang dalam negeri ini dapat mengawal harta kita yang pergi keluar negeri sa-banyak $2 juta ini dan dapat menjamin bahawa pertarongan judi itu benar2 dapat di-punyai oleh mereka yang bertarong dan dapat pula basil kapada Kerajaan.
Sebab saya memberikan sokongan kapada Rang Undang2 ini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, pertama satu sa-kali dengan di-laksanakan Rang Undang2 ini akan mendatangkan sumber basil negeri yang kita sekarang sangat menghen daki wang.
ini Yang kedua, daripada wang itu kita boleh membuat pembangunan negara ra'ayat yang sangat di-hajati oleh dalam negeri sa-kali terutama negeri kita yang muda termasok-lah wang kutipan ini akan di-terima oleh negeri yang di-perentah oleh PAS dan tambahan pula Rang Undang2 ini chuma di-jalankan di-dalam masa dua tahun.

Sa-kira-nya ada mudzarat-nya akan menarek mungkin Kerajaan balek atau pun sa-balek-nya.
kita bahawa lumba kuda, Dalam negeri kita ini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sedia bagaimana ma'alum, beberapa macham judi yang saperti di-luluskan oleh Kerajaan Lembaga Loteri Kebajikan Mashara kat, loteri bola yang baharu hendak di-luluskan ini.

Kita jangan memikirkan ada gulongan2 yang mengadakan judi yang berupa menipu ra'ayat, yang menge lirukan duit ra'ayat, yang di-minati bukan sahaja orang dewasa, di-minati kapada orang perempuan dan kanak2.

Satu daripada judi-nya, Tuan Yang di Pertua, judi 36.
Hal ini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kumpulan yang membuat judi ini hari2, bukan minggu2• Ini saya harap kapada Menteri Keselamatan Dalam Negeri supaya dapat menengok, menangkap dan memberkas kumpulan ini supaya judi2 yang di-luluskan oleh Kerajaan dapat berjalan dengan baik dan penipuan kapada ra'ayat dan didekan judi kapada anak2 ini tidak akan berpanjangan.
Akhir-nya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya gemar menarek perhatian Kemen terian yang berkenaan sa-kira-nya Lembaga ini dapat di-teruskan, saya 3115 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3116 harap supaya kemasokan kopon loteri bola daripada England ini di-berhentikan terus.

luar negeri, dari Yang kedua, berikan kota (quota) tertentu, peruntokan daripada yang wang Lembaga ini kapada Kemen terian Kebudayaan, Belia dan Sokan dan juga kapada Kementerian Pela jaran dalam bahagian sokan anak2 kita.
Ini memberi faedah yang ber kesan yang sesuai dengan keadaan permainan judi melalui bola ini.

Satu perkara, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya nampak pagi tadi Parti Buroh, Parti D.A.P., Parti P.P.P.

daripada Ipoh, macham Ulama'.

Islam dia ber nama chakap dengan menyebut2 Tuhan, mengangkat2 Peratoran Mes huarat Dewan Ra'ayat kita ini.

Ini saya nampak, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ia-lah sa-bagai hendak mengabui mata ra'ayat orang2 Melayu.

Hujjah2 yang di-kemukakan itu ada-lah pura2.


Saya memberi analisa, kesimpulan bahawa hujjah2 itu tidak dapat di-tcrima oleh orang Melayu pada masa sekarang, sebab orang Melayu pada masa sekarang sudah 10 tahun merdeka dia boleh berfikir ada-kah tidak kebajikan nya bagi pembangunan negara dengan di-laksanakan usul ini.

Yang akhir-nya, kapada wakil2 daripada PAS yang baharu sa-bentar berchakap tadi dan juga yang dahulu daripada ini, saya menchabar ahli2 PAS yang dia chakap tadi juga chuma judi.
Judi orang dia mencheritakan Islam memang tahu haram dan banyak ugama tidak sukakan judi, tetapi saya cha bar Parti PAS, dia kata judi ini bertentangan dengan ugama rasmi negeri sa-bagai ugama Islam.

Ra'ayat negeri Kelantan telah memberikan mandat kapada wakil2 PAS supaya membentok Kerajaan Parti Islam Sa Tanah Melayu.

tidak judi dalam Negeri Kelantan?

Ada tidak pelachoran dalam Negeri Kelantan?

Ada tidak pajak judi dalam Negeri Kelantan?


Kena pa telah berikan kuasa supaya ra'ayat menjalankan dasar sa-bagai ugama rasmi Negeri Kelantan itu tidak dapat di-jalankan oleh Parti PAS?

Islam Ada Lagi satu, saya hendak tanya kenapa dalam dia bersungutkan tadi Kerajaan Perikatan membantu berhala di-negeri Kelantan Kerajaan-nya, Kerajaan yang Islam, kenapa berdasarkan ugama Kerajaan Negeri Kelantan tidak roboh kan berhala2 tok kong di-sana.
Jadi, Dato' Yang di-Pertua, Parti PAS ini saya harap walau pun parti berdasar kan Islam, saya minta wakil2 itu ber fikir dengan panjang memahami lanjut keadaan negara kita yang ke sempitan wang untok pembangunan negara untok memberi faedah kapada ra'ayat di-mana sumber wang yang kita dapat untok sementara ini, dengan se bab itu Rang Undang2 ini di-kemuka kan di-Dewan ini yang bukan sahaja memberi faedah kapada Ahli2 Per ikatan, akan memberi faedah bersama kapada Kerajaan Kelantan dan dari pada hasil ini akan menjadi perbenda haraan wang negara, dapat pula elaun yang di-terima oleh Ahli Yang Ber hormat daripada PAS.
Saya fikir di akui.

ini PAS Jadi, Dato' Yang di-Pertua, itu-lah sahaja saya harap kalau hal yang sa kena berfikir umpama panjang2-lah untok menentang satu2 perkara yang di-bawa oleh Kerajaan.

Itu sahaja, Dato' Yang di-Pertua, Terima kaseh.

Tuan Haji Hussain bin Haji Saman (Kota Bharu Hulu): Tuan Yang d'.

Pertua, saya pada mula-nya tidak-lah ingin berchakap dalam Dewan ini te tapi di-sebabkan pehak Parti Per ikatan bagitu sa-kali hebat walau bagaimana pun terpaksa saya ber chakap.
Sa-belum daripada saya berchakap saya bacha satu ayat Qur'an.

Saya minta izin, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya akan terjemahkan satu2 sa-belum saya terjemahkan saya ingin bacha ayat itu-( dalam bahasa Arab) .

.

.

.

.

ma'ana-nya ada-lah kamu sakalian satu gulongan, kamu satu gulongan yang baik, yang bagus tetapi bila masa yang kamu boleh jadi bagus, boleh jadi baik.

Kamu menyeru dengan mem buat kebajikan di-situ baharu boleh jadi baik.
Kamu umat Nabi Muham mad ada-lah satu umat yang baik, tetapi kalau tidak kamu menyuroh dengan muka yang baik macham ada 3117 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3118 satu potongan kayu yang kayu itu kayu keras, kayu chengal, tetapi terguling di-dalam parit, dudok-lah tetapi tidak tahu kayu itu baik.
Di mana kita hendak tahu kayu itu bagus dan elok, kayu itu kena kita potong dan kita belah, kena kita bernis dan kena buat saiz, maka itu-lah nama nya: "Suroh buat baik, sa-umpama hen dak buat judi pada hari ini", wajib di-atas orang yang mengetahui, kena lah bagi tahu kapada orang yang tidak tahu mengatakan tidak boleh perkara yang sa-umpama ini.

Kalau tidak, akan tanggong dan akan pikul ka-hadapan esok.
kapada Saya menyeru pehak2 UMNO terutama kapada alim ulama' yang ada di-dalam UMNO yang bijak pandai yan~ ada di-dalam UMNO yang dapat degree, yang pas universiti to long tunjokkan di-mana-kah ayat2 Qur'an yang membolehkan judi itu di galakkan.
Kita boleh terima dengan dua belah tangan sa-kira-nya ada, se bab mereka ada-lah satu gulongan daripada umat Islam bersama2 Peng hulu Muhammad, Allah-Tuhan kita, bagaimana ini berdegil, tetapi tunjok kan benda yang tidak benar sa-hingga sa-kali menunjokkan degil-nya, tidak tunjokkan kenyataan yang benar ka pada kita.

Ini ada-lah akan membawa durjana daripada Tuhan kita, daripada Tuhan kita datang dan kapada Tuhan tempat pergi-nya.
·sa-kali pun kita jadi pangkat besar, sa-kali pun kita hari ini dudok di-hadapan kita bertimbun2 harta yang banyak, tetapi akan kita jumpa dan akan di-soal satu2, akan kita jumpa esok.

Sa-lain daripada itu, Tuan Yang di Pertua, sa-kurang2-nya pada hari ini saya hendak minta kapada Dewan ini terutama-nya kapada pehak Kerajaan, usul ini kalau-lah hendak di-jalankan, hendak di-luluskan juga, tetapi pehak kami Parti Islam sa-Tanah Melayu membantah sa-keras2-nya.
Kalau-lah mereka hendak jalan juga sa-kurang2- nya hendak-lah di-tanggohkan, jangan di-putuskan lagi sa-hingga sampai ka pada satu meshuarat yang lain supaya pehak2 Kerajaan dapat merojok dan dapat jumpa dengan alim ulama' me reka bagaimana-kah chara-nya yang boleh.

Ini di-dalam segi hukum.

Dalam segi masharakat, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ada-lah satu perkara yang membawa kapada keburokan, Tuan Yang di Pertua,-banyak !
Kalau-lah judi ini di-sebar di-dalam negeri kita, maka ada-lah di-antara orang2 yang ada di-dalam negeri ini hendak mendapat menang judi-nya itu, maka menyembah lah dia, pergi-lah dia buat wasillah kapada tok kong itu dan tok kong ini-kapada pohon kayu itu dan kayu ini, kapada orang keramat itu dan orang keramat ini.

Bagaimana-kah chara-nya?

Dan banyak perkara2 yang lain lagi yang menyebabkan kapada kerosakan kedudokan kita.
Saya suka menchabar kapada pehak2 yang ada pengetahuan ugama di-dalam parti UMNO, ugama mana yang mem bolehkan judi?

Chuba tolong beri tahu, di-dalam ugama Islam sudah tentu.
Ahli Muar Utara tadi itu sudah ber chakap dia kata tetap haram, dia mahu, jadi kalau mahu, sudah benar tidak boleh, mahu juga, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sahaja-lah, patut juga kalau boleh, tetapi tidak saya mengeshor ini, jangan pula kata saya ini mengeshor, kalau rasa orang mahu menchuri kalau mahu pula orang ramai2 kemahuan yang macham mana yang dia mahu kapada orang ramai, kita benar juga lah.

Bagini-kah chara keadaan kita pada hari ini?


ramai2-pergi-lah, senang Saya suka bagi tahu kapada wakil Muar Utara yang dia chabar pehak Parti Islam Sa-Tanah Melayu yang ra'ayat negeri Kelantan bagi tugas ka pada Parti Islam sa-Tanah Melayu dalam negeri Kelantan, tetapi kenapa, kenapa, yang saya sebut kenapa2 itu banyak-lah kenapa2 yang telah di sebutkan tidak-lah saya hendak sebut satu persatu, kerana saya hendak jaga masa.
Tetapi, Yang Berhormat tentu sendiri tahu negeri Kelantan ada-lah satu negeri yang satu unit daripada Malaysia.

Tok Penghulu kampong sa haja.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, bila Tok Penghulu kampong hendak jalankan satu2 Undang2, maka ia di-tahan oleh 3119 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3.120 penggawa, bagitu juga sa-balek-nya, jika penggawa hendak membuat satu2 perkara, maka ia di-tahan oleh D.O.
Ini-lah chara kedudokan hari ini, jangan-lah pula dia bangga sa-umpama ini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, pendek-nya Ahli dari Muar Utara pun memang ini tahu perkara yang sa-umpama tetapi suka dia mengabu mata ra'ayat itu sahaja.

Sa-lain daripada itu, Tuan Yang di Pertua, saya rasa dalam masaalah ini saya minta pada pehak Kerajaan, ja ngan beri jadi penambah-menambah bilangan apa?

Bilangan jahat di-dalam negeri ini.

Satu loteri, dua ekor kuda; sa-kira-nya di-tambah satu lagi jadi tiga.
Yang ada dia jangan beri jadi tiga, yang tiga jangan beri jadi empat.

Bagitu juga bagaimana yang telah saya sebut minta di-tempohkan pada masa yang lain mudahan2 dengan tempohan itu tidak di-jalan perkara ini, maka jadi kebajikan kapada ra'ayat bersama dalam negeri ini.

Hati manusia satu masa ka-suatu masa yang lain mena kala berfikir tentu-lah boleh memikir dengan chara bagini, dengan chara betul-(bahasa Arab) "hati itu sa perti burong chiak", sa-kali terbang ka-sana dan sa-kali ka-sini.
Satu kali memikir macham ini satu kali pula memikir macham itu.

Juga kalau-lah di-tempohkan satu masa yang lain arti-nya melambatkan kita hendak buat jahat di-dalam negeri ini pun ada-lah satu perkara yang baik, menahankan benda yang hendak di-lakukan dalam perkara ini yang benda itu benda yang tidak baik.

Ini-lah yang dapat saya ke mukakan pada hari ini kapada pehak Kerajaan.

Sa-lain daripada itu saya uchapkan terima kaseh, sekian.
Wan Abdul Kadir bin Ismail (Kuala Trengganu Utara): Tuan Yang di Pertua, saya ingin mengambil bahagian sadikit dalam perbinchangan Rang Undang2 ini.

Mendengar perbinchangan yang telah berlaku dan uchapan2 dari pada ahli2 dari puak Pembangkang dari pagi ini tadi, saya merasa Dewan berada-lah suatu suasana yang baik.

Saya sa-orang Catholic daripada Batu beruchap (Ketawa).

sa-olah2 mendengar Dr Tan Chee Khoon (Batu): Untok penjelasan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya bukan Catholic.
Wan Abdul Kadir bin Ismail: Sa olah2, sa-olah2 padri dari Bungsar ini juga mempunyai assignment lagi sa kali, dan sa-olah2 muballigh politik yang memakai bulu muballigh ugama dari Kelantan Hilir ada beruchap.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, suatu perkara yang terang, Rang Undang2 yang ada di-hadapan kita ini bukan-lah hendak menghalalkan, dari segi ugama, judi haram di-dalam ugama kita, sa bagaimana juga pehak PAS tidak boleh mengkafirkan orang Melayu yang sama2 Islam saperti orang2 di-dalam PAS (Ketawa).
Apa yang menarek per hatian saya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, penentangan terutama daripada pehak PAS kapada Rang Undang2 ini ber dasarkan kapada ugama Islam, ber dasar kapada ajaran Islam dan ini-lah yang menarek hati saya untok meng ambil bahagian di-dalam perbincha ngan ini.

yang politik Wakil Tanah Merah, wakil Kelantan Hilir, wakil Kota Bharu Hulu, me ngatakan berkali2 bahawa ini berten tangan sama sa-kali dengan ajaran Islam, dengan ajaran Allah.
Ukoran PAS di-dalam menentang Rang Un dang2 ini ia-lah ajaran Islam dan aja ran Allah yang maha suchi.

Pada sa belah pagi tadi sampai tengah hari saya mendengar suatu kuliah atau suatu sharahan berbelang dengan ugama daripada Ahli Kelantan Hilir dan saya boleh, Tuan Yang di Pertua, memberi atau membuat kem pen politik yang bersalut ugama di dalam Dewan ini, tetapi saya tidak ingin berbuat demikian sa-bagaimana yang di-lakukan oleh Ahli Kelantan Hilir dan kemudian daripada itu Ahli daripada Kota Bharu Hulu.
Chuma saya mahu bertanya, apa-kah konsep yang besar daripada perlaksanaan Islam itu di-atas masharakat?

Konsep yang .

besar dalam Islam dalam per laksanaan Islam itu di-atas masharakat bergantong kapada chontoh : (bahasa Arab) "Bahawa Rasulullah itu menjadi chontoh dan ikutan kapada kamu".
Sa suatu yang hendak di-buat dan hendak 3121 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3122 di-katakan mesti-lah ada chontoh yang baik, sebab itu Imam Ghazali me ngatakan "Tibdad binafsi-mulakan dengan diri kamu dahulu baru kamu salahkan orang lain" Imam Ghazali yang menjadi sa-orang Imam yang ter besar di-dalam ugama Islam.

Sebab itu-lah.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua .

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Tuan Haji HllSWn Rahimi bin Haji Saman: (Bangun).

Mr Speaker: Dia tidak bagi jalan.


Wan Abdul Kadir bin Ismail: Saya baru hendak sharahkan konsep Islam kapada ulama'2, ketua ulama', supaya kita lebeh faham, kalau salah saya katakan saya salah kemudian daripada itu.
kebinasaan Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Qur'an yang menjadi asas kapada Islam yang men jadi bantuan kapada kita semua, yang menjadi modal politik kapada PAS telah membawa kesah dan peristiwa di dalam perkara ini dan peristiwa yang besar sa-kali di-bawa ia-lah cherita kaum Yahudi dan kebinasaan kaum Yahudi.

Apa-kah dia sebab dan pun cha kaum Yahudi?


Puncha-nya berasal daripada ayat yang di-nyatakan oleh Tuhan, (bahasa Arab)-"ada-kah engkau lupakan diri engkau, engkau suroh orang lain ber buat baik, engkau lupakan diri engkau sendiri, pada hal kamu tahu mem bacha kitab, tak ada akal-kah kamu".

Ini-lah dia puncha kehanchoran kaum Yahudi ini.


Jikalau PAS menen tang Undang2 ini daripada segi Islam sudah-kah PAS melihat kapada diri nya sendiri, berchermin kapada diri nya sendiri, melihat muka-nya sendiri terlebeh dahulu jikalau rumah kita daripada kacha jangan chuba melontar rumah orang lain.
Tuan Yang di-Pertua, apa dia chon toh yang di-buat oleh PAS dan oleh Kerajaan PAS Kelantan dalam per kara Islam kerana Islam konsep-nya konsep chontoh, tunjokkan chontoh kapada orang sa-hingga di-ikuti orang chontoh yang di lain.

Apa-kah tunjokkan oleh PAS, gambaran yang di-jalankan oleh PAS tentang Islam di-Kelantan?

Saya boleh buka, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, belanjawan Kerajaan PAS Tahun 1967 di-dalam estimate Kerajaan PAS 1967 ada di-ambil sa banyak $17 ribu basil kedai chukai arak, haram atau halal?
Ada di-ambil $19,000 basil lesen anjing, haram atau halal?

Ada di-ambil $17 ,000 basil Pajak Gadai, haram atau halal?

Ada di-ambil sa-banyak $200,000 cbukai hiboran segala hiboran di-Kelantan sa-lama tahun ini dan saya kira ter masok lesen tarian bogel yang di tunjokkan di-Panggong Rex Kota Bharu, sendiri, haram a tau halal?

Ini-lah chontoh ada berlaku di Kelantan.

Di-Kelantan konon-nya ada menjalankan Undang2 Khalwat, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.
Saya ingin bertanya, ada-kah Undang2 Kbalwat ini sesuai dengan dasar Islam, dan dengan konsep Islam dan dengan shara' Islam kerana di-dalam Islam dan kuasa ugama, kuasa Kerajaan Negeri, siapa sahaja yang melakukan perzinahan haram, maka hukuman-nya di-rejam sampai mati.

Ada-kah denda $20 atau $300 se suai dengan hukum Islam?

Ada-kah Kerajaan PAS Kelantan sudah me minda undang2 Khalwat sa-hingga sesuai dengan Qur'an dan Hadith dalam perkara khalwat?
Ini gambaran yang kita tengok, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, itu jangan chakap Islam sa sebab barang Islam, jangan memperdagang kan ugama menjadikan dalam panduan politik boleh, memperdagangkan ugama dalam politik ini di-jalankan oleh PAS, Ketua2 PAS dan Ulama'2 PAS yang ada dalam Dewan Ulama' PAS ini.
Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya tertarek hati dengan Ahli Kota Bharu Ulu yang membawa sa-potong ayat yang berbunyi: "Kamu-lah sa-baik2 umat yang di-jadikan untok manusia kerana kamu menyuroh berbuat baik dan melarang berbuat jahat" dengan sha rahan dan huraian yang panjang.
Saya rasa sharahan ini sa-belum Ahli Kota Bharu Ulu datang menchurahkan ka dalam Dewan lebeh baik bagi ini beliau, lebeh berkewajipan bagi beliau menchurahkan-nya di-Kota Bharu ka pada Ahli2 Ex-co Kerajaan PAS, ka pada Ketua2 Kerajaan PAS di-Kota Bharu.
Saya chabar Ahli Yang Ber hormat Kota Bharu Ulu dan Ahli 3123 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3124 Kelantan Hilir kalau berani bawa usul dalam Dewan ini supaya Kerajaan PAS di-Kelantan betul2 menjalankan hu kurnan Islam di-Kelantan, jikalau me reka tidak ada suara dalarn Dewan Undangan Negeri, kerana mereka di pileh dalam Parlimen ini bawakan usul di-sini supaya usul itu di-sampaikan oleh Dewan Parlirnen ini kapada De wan Undangan Negeri Kelantan, saya chabar kalau mereka itu berani.
Kalau sa-benar-nya di-Kelantan sudah rnen jalankan sa-p_enoh-nya apa yang sa benar-nya mereka hendak jalankan.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ada suatu dasar, ada suatu petua, yang saya dapat petek daripada uchapan Ahli daripada Tanah Merah, sa-belah pagi tadi.

Kata Ahli dari Tanah Merah, dia ini boleh refer dalam Hansard, melakukan dosa sa-chara diam2 itu oleh tidak mengapa.
Barangkali kerana dasar PAS, ketua2 PAS melakukan dosa sa-chara diam2 itu tidak mengapa, hatta judi pun di galakkan oleh Ketua2 PAS dalam pilehan raya Pasir Mas Ulu baharu2 ini, baharu kira2 dua bulan.

Ada sa-orang orang yang bukan Melayu yang di-suroh oleh Ketua2 PAS supaya mengadakan pertarohan bahawa PAS mesti menang dengan pertarohan hampir $50,000 supaya orang meng ini hatta orang ejar duit $50,000 Perikatan-UMNO pangkah pergi Bulan Bintang untok mendapat hadiah $50,000.
Ini terang2 berlaku di-bawah mata dan hidong sakalian ra'ayat di Pasir Mas.

Perjudian yang di-lakukan oleh Parti Politik PAS dalam pilehan raya, ada yang kechil2 lagi.

Ada lagi orang yang lebeh kechil memberi per tarohan yang lebeh kechil.

Ini halal, ini boleh, supaya PAS menang, supaya PAS berkuasa di-Kelantan, supaya P A'.S dapat memperkudakan segala kepentingan di-Kelantan untok faedah gulongan2 yang memegang tampok dalam PAS sendiri.
Tuan Yang di-Pertua, berpegang kapada panduan Imam Ghazali tadi yang mengatakan: "Betulkan diri karnu sendiri dahulu, rnulakan diri kamu sendiri terlebeh dahulu", hatta Ahli daripada Kelantan Hilir yang berchakap tadi dengan chara sa-bagai sa-orang penyelamat, memberi bimbingan kapada orang jahil, bahawa beliau sa-olah2- yang nya merupakan dalam uchapan-nya sa-bagai sa bagai sa-orang maseh yang baharu yang datang untok menyelamatkan manusia yang tidak mengerti, dalam uchapan-nya itu, hatta Ahli daripada Kelantan Hilir itu sendiri, walau pun ia baharu saya kata dia kena pakai akan panduan Imam Ghazali tadi.
Dia kena betulkan diri dia sendiri dahulu, kerana ada laporan sa-sudah Ahli Kelantan Hilir itu menang pilehan raya pada 2lhb Oktober tahun ini-pada 27 haribulan hari J umaat pergi-lah Ahli dari Kelantan Hilir ini bersembahyang Jumaat di-sabuah mas jid di-dalam kawasan-nya bemama Masjid Kedai Lalat sa-lepas sembahyang Juma'at bangun-lah wakil yang baharu di-pileh ini berchakap mengatakan pilehan raya telah selesai, tetapi dosa belum selesai.
Beliau mengatakan mana2 orang yang menga takan hudoh kapada-nya, saya quote tiap2 perchakapan-nya: "Mana2 orang yang berkata hudoh kapada saya dalam masa kempen baharu2 ini hendak-lah mereka itu ;,emua bawa orang2 yang berkempen jumpa saya dan meminta ma'af sa-belum saya mati dan jika tidak mereka semua neraka lah tempat-nya."

Ada-kah ini Islam yang keluar daripada sa-orang yang rnengaku alim ulama' yang berseh yang datang menyelamatkan manusia di dunia ini?
d;;i.n Saya merasa pengaduan ini telah di sampaikan kapada Majlis Ugama Islam Kelantan.

Ini-lah saya kata, jikalau hendak berchakap dari segi Islam, dari segi ugama dan dasar ugama, kita kena berpandu kapada konsep ugama Islam ini yang me nyuroh kita membetulkan diri kita dahulu.

Ahli dari Kelantan Hilir mengatakan beliau sanggup berjudi.

jikalau ada ilmu judi yang boleh men jadikan itu menang, katakan loteri, dia sedia hendak berjudi loteri jikalau terjamin dia boleh menang loteri.
Saya beri chabaran kapada Ahli Kelantan Hilir, ada ilmu sekarang sudah di-reka oleh manusia yang dapat tahu akan berapa-kah angka yang hendak menang dalam loteri pada 20 haribulan depan, sudah di-chuba judi 3125 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3126 loteri pada 4 bulan yang Iepas sa-orang telah menchuba, beliau meminta melihat nombor loteri yang menang pada 3 minggu ka-hadapan dan tiket itu ada nombor itu di-katup di-dalam satu invelop, di-seal dan di-simpan dan pada masa itu di-buka dua minggu kemudian-nya, betul nombor itu nombor satu.
Kalau dia membang kang hal judi ini atas dasar kerana tidak ada ilmu hal judi, maka ada ilmu hal judi, ada-kah Ahli Kelantan Hilir hendak menerima dan berjudi kerana ilmu untok mengetahui chara menang judi sudah ada sekarang di reka oleh manusia?

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya hendak berchakap panjang-ramai lagi yang hendak berchakap.

Saya hendak ber chakap panjang lagi banyak lagi per kara yang akan saya kupas dan yang akan saya telanjangi, biar-lah sa-takat saya saya berchakap.
Chuma ini mengatakan Ahli daripada Kota Bharu Hilir mengatakan Rang Undang2 ini sa-olah2 Kerajaan menga takan benda itu haram, tetapi kalau kata macham mahu menchuri ramai2- lah pergi menchuri.
Perkataan ini bukan di-sini patut di-churahkan oleh Ahli daripada Kota Bharu Hilir itu, perkataan itu di-churahkan di-dalam Dewan Negeri Kelantan, di-dalam sidang Dewan Ulama' PAS Kelantan supaya segala penchurian dan pem bohongan kapada Allah dan kapada Rasulullah tidak terus berlangsong di Kelantan sa-bagai mana yang berlaku · sudah tahun.
Mudah2an Tuhan bukakan pintu hati rahmat kapada kita sakalian dan dapat pertunjok yang baik dan dapat kita menchapai perpaduan dan keselamatan anak chuchu kita di-kemudian bari kelak.

Terima kaseh.
sembilan hampir tidak-lah Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah (Hilir Perak): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, juga pada mula-nya saya hendak serta di-dalam perbahathan ini, oleh kerana perkara yang kita bahath kan ini jelas dan terang, bukan gelap, tetapi sa-telah di-gelapkan oleh be berapa orang Ahli Pembangkang, terutama sakali daripada sahabat2 saya daripada PAS, yang telah menggelap kan Rang Undang2 ini daripada haki kat-nya yang asal kapada masaalah2 jadi-lah dia berlaku ugama; maka Yang halal saperti sekarang sa-hingga di-tudoh bahawa kita hendak menghalalkan apa yang di-haramkan oleh Allah subhanahu wataala.
ini terang dan yang haram itu pun terang.

Tidak ada sa suatu kuasa manusia yang boleh mengahalalkan benda yang di-haram kan oleh Allah dan tidak ada sa-suatu kuasa yang boleh mengharamkan apa yang di-halalkan oleh Allah.

Kita ini orang Islam dan kita sa-pakat semua nya berkata demikian.

Apa yang halal itu halal dan apa yang haram itu haram.
Judi haram dan kita tidak menyebut walau sa patah pun di dalam Rang Undang2 ini, kita quote, kita ambil daripada ayat Qur'an, kemudian kita katakan di-halalkan lah ayat Qur'an itu dengan Rang Undang2 ini, kita tidak buat demikian sebab kita tidak menghalalkan apa yang di-haramkan oleh Allah sub hanahu wataala.
rasmi di-dalam negeri Sa-belum kita pergi membahath lebeh jauh dan terutama sa-kali saya agak, saya minta Ahli2 Yang Ber hormat dari PAS, chuba dia buka mata sadikit dan tengok kekudokan tanah ayer kita ini pada hakikat.

Tanah ayer kita Malaysia ini bukan lah negeri Mekah.

Malaysia bukan lah suatu negeri di-mana pendudok Islam, nya seluroh-nya orang sa Islam menjadi kali pun ugama ugama ini, tetapi seluroh ra'ayat-nya bukan-lah semua-nya berugama Islam.
Negeri kita bukan macham Mekah, kalau di Mekah seluroh-nya Islam kalau kita dudok di-keliling Mekah sekarang ini atau negeri kita ini sa-rupa saperti Mekah di-mana tidak ada sa-orang pun orang yang bukan Islam, kita buat Rang Undang2 rasa-nya tidak mustahak Rang Undang2 ini, tetapi kita membuat Rang Undang2 ini me mandangkan kapada kedudokan tanah ayer kita ini yang terdiri daripada orang2 yang Islam, orang2 yang bukan Islam, orang yang mempunyai ber bagai2 faham ugama dan ada juga terdiri daripada orang yang tidak lang song memegang satu2 ugama.
Oleh kerana kita memandangkan negara terdiri daripada berbagai2 kita ini daripada terdiri ugama, fahaman orang2 yang patoh kapada Islam dan 3127 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3128 tidak.

maka kita mengadakan Rang Undangz ini sa-mata2 kerana kita hendak mengawal sa-suatu perbuatan yang mungkin merugikan negara ini pada keselurohan-nya.

Kita tidak menghalalkan apa yang di-haramkan, tetapi kita mengawal sa-suatu perbua tan yang boleh merugikan negara ini dan boleh merugikan ra'ayat di-dalam negeri ini sendiri.
Tuan Yang di-Pertua, di-sedari atau tidak di-sedari, pertarohan bola ini memang sudah ada di-dalam negeri kita dan berjalan dan sa-belum dari ini, sa-belum Rang Undang2 pada Loteri mithal-nya atau tikam ekor kita luluskan di-dalam Dewan yang mulia ini, perbuatan itu sudah berlaku sa belum Rang Undang2 itu kita bawa ka-dalam Majlis yang mulia ini sudah berlaku, tetapi perlakuan-nya itu merupakan yang pertama sa-kali melibatkan ra'ayat sa-chara langsong dengan ada penipuan daripada shari kat2 atau kumpulan2 yang tidak ber tanggong-jawab mengadakan perjudi an2, atau pun pertarohan2 yang tidak di-kawal oleh Undang2, sa-chara gelap mereka itu mengadakan-nya dan ini bukan sahaja merugikan negara, tetapi merugikan ra'ayat sa-chara langsong.
sa-suatu Undang2 Dengan ada-nya untok mengawal berlaku-nya sa-suatu pertarohan sa-chara gelap itu, maka ini erti-nya Rang Undang2 itu memberi perlindongan kapada ra'ayat dan mem beri lindongan kapada orang yang mungkin akan di-tipu atau di-pesona dengan kumpulan2 yang menjalankan nya sa-chara gelap itu.
Sekarang ini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kita pun bukan sahaja judi ini per tarohan bola ini di-katakan haram, kita yakin ini benda haram dan kami daripada orang UMNO ini tahu mana yang haram dan tahu mana yang halal.

Tidak usah-lah orang PAS hendak chabar kita, kita pun mcngaji juga.

Tetapi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, bukan lah ini sahaja yang haram banyak lagi perkara haram, bernafas satu keluar nafas haram, masok lagi haram, apa mithal-nya.
Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada Kelantan Hilir, Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada Kota Bharu mithal-nya, di- dalam hukum Islam tengok perempuan tidak boleh.

Pada satu masa, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Saidina Omar her.

jalan dengan Rasulullah, berseliseh dengan sa-orang perempuan dan ter.

nampak Saidina Omar kapada perem puan itu dia berjalan, tetapi sa-sudah langkah berseliseh Saidina beberapa Omar memaling ka-belakang melihat perempuan itu balek dari belakang perempuan itu.
Rasulullah menepok belakang Saidina Omar mengatakan "engkau tengok yang tadi tidak apa ya Omar, tengok yang kedua ini haram", jadi bagaimana, Ahli Yang Berhormat itu dudok dengan bertentangan dengan beberapa wanita di-dalam Dewan ini, haram tidak haram?

Kalau hendak di kira haram, bukan sa-kali, bukan dua kali, dia tengok.
di-jeling pun ada saya tengok, bukan sahaja di-dalam Dewan ini, di-luar Dewan pun ada, di-dalam Dewan dalam rumah kita yang besar ini banyak wanita2 ada, dia jeling juga, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, haram atau tidak; ini perkara haram kalau kita bahathkan.

Ahli Yang Berhormat itu dudok di.


hotel dan hotel itu mashaallah-haram atau tidak haram, kalau hendak di bahathkan, haram, ini perkara-nya, sa bagaimana saudara sahaja saya tadi daripada Kuala Trengganu Utara mengatakan, kalau hendak kita haram, pilehan raya ini pun haram, menipu apa tidak haram, chakap bohong tidak haram, jual ayat Kuran tidak haram, Allah "Jangan engkau menjual Ayat Aku dengan harga murah?"

Sekarang orang PAS jual dengan harga $750 haram atau tidak?
Dia gunakan ayat Qur'an, waktu saya dalam PAS pun itu-lah kerja saya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

Saya berani mengaku, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, apa salah-nya benda yang benar, kalau depan kita bohong, depan Allah tidak akan kita hendak boleh bohong.
ada mengatakan: tegang, akan Tetapi orang PAS pada hari ini lidah-nya kepala-nya maseh keras, maseh tiba sa'at-nya lidah-nya akan kendor, bila sampai 6 kaki kabawah, dia akan tahu, tetapi sa-belum-nya masok 6 kaki, saya sedar siang2 • 3129 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3130 Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalau hendak cherita haram, pilehan raya ini pun haram-pilehan raya ini pun haram itu haram.
Bukan itu sahaja, orang yang wara', orang yang hendak menjadi ahli sufi-hendak dudok dalam gua batu pakai baju puteh, ahli sufi dia tidak mahu makan benda yang subahat, yang menjadi barang yang di-ragukan-nya dia tidak mahu.

Hasil negara kita sekarang bukan sahaja daripada chukai chukai, daripada orang Islam, chukai tanah orang Islam, zakat orang Islam-bukan itu, tetapi basil negara kita terdiri daripada chukai babi; babi ini haram atau tidak, Tuan Yang di-Pertua?
Babi ini pun haram, tetapi ada orang pusing, daging nya yang haram, duit-nya tidak (Ketawa).

Ada orang pusing bagitu, kalau pusing bagitu nanti Allah Ta'ala pusing kapada dia.

Negara kita ini dapat basil chukai babi, di-Kelantan pun ada chukai babi, bukan tidak ada, ada chukai babi tadi berapa ribu-kah di-sebut.

Arak haram, di-Kelantan pun makan arak juga, ambil juga chukai arak-haram.

Duit ini masok ka dalam Khazanah Kerajaan, di-dalam hukum ugama ini di-namakan duit subahat.
terima tidak mahu Orang yang sufi macham tuan guru kita yang baharu berchakap dua2 tadi itu.

Saya dia hendak tanya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ada-kah dia terima elaun-nya $750 atau tidak?

Dia terima, kalau lambat2 dia tuntut kapada Tuan Yang di Pertua, "mengapa saya punya elaun tidak dapat."

(Ketawa).

Saya tengok ada yang membuat dia punya milage terlebeh dahulu sa-belum dia pulang (Ketawa).

Macham itu, Tuan Yang di Pertua, kalau sudah masok ka-dalam saku, halal belaka.
Ini hukum ugama, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, bukan hendak hidup hukum dengan kita punya tekak.

Kita mesti hukum kapada asas Islam itu sendiri, kapada hakikat Islam sa kali lagi kami katakan, kami daripada ini, Tuan Yang di orang UMNO Pertua, mengharamkan apa yang di haramkan oleh Allah.

Allah Ta'ala kata dalam Qur'an pun ada, kamu tidak usah sembah shaitan, tidak usah ikut shaitan, tetapi fasal apa Allah Ta'ala jadikan shaitan?
Kalau dah dia suroh jangan ikut, jangan engkau ikut shaitan, lebeh baik Allah Ta'ala bunoh sahaja shaitan supaya orang jangan ikut, tetapi kenapa Allah Ta'ala hidup kan shaitan?

Allah Ta'ala kata, babi, anjing itu haram, jangan kamu makan.

Kerana apa Allah Ta'ala hidupkan anjing dan hidupkan babi sa-kali beranak sampai 20?

Lembu sa-ekor sahaja sa-kali beranak, anjing dengan babi 20 sa-kali beranak, siapa meng hidupkan itu?
Allah Ta'ala, bukan orang PAS, bukan orang UMNO, Allah Ta'ala, kenapa Allah Ta'ala hidupkan?

Ini ada hikmat-mesti ada rahsia, bukan tidak ada rahsia.

Kalau tunjokkan Tuhan kata, engkau jalan dua, satu jalan kiri, satu jalan kanan, satu jalan shukor, satu jalan kufor".

Kami berikan engkau akal, engkau hendak ikut yang mana suka hati.
Jadi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalau demikian Tuhan membuat, mela rang tetapi sa-suatu yang haram, mengadakan sa-suatu yang haram; ada haram-babi haram, anjing haram, segala macham haram tetapi Allah Ta'ala mengadakan juga supaya apa, supaya dia hendak menguji sa-jauh mana kita punya iman di-dalam menyakinkan haram yang di-haramkan oleh Allah dan halal yang di-halalkan oleh Allah.
"oh, aku J adi sekarang ini kita mengadakan Rang Undang2 ini bukan kita panggil, hai orang PAS mari-lah, beli-lah tiket ini, tidak siapa suroh, tidak siapa, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, suroh.

Dan sa lama yang kita buat tanya-lah Yang Berhormat Menteri Kebajikan Masha rakat, dia tidak pernah suroh orang PAS beli tiket loteri, tetapi ada orang PAS beli tiket loteri sembunyi2 bukan dia suroh, itu engkau punya fasal-lah.
tetapi kalau dia tidak suroh Kita hendak buat juga ..... Dr Tan Chee Khoon (Batu): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ada-kah anggota2 UMNO beli tiket .

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Mr Speaker: Kalau dua2 orang sa-kali berdiri macham mana, kalau minta penjelasan, dia beri jalan dahulu.

3131 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3132 Tuan Haji Othman bin AbdulJah: Biasa-nya bagitu-lah, Tuan Yang di Pertua, adat macham itu.

kalau Yang Berhormat dari Batu hendak minta jalan.

chakap-lah dengan hormat sadi kit, saya beri-lah.


Hendak minta jalan saya beri-lah.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Beliau ber kata anggota2 PAS beli tiket Loteri Kebajikan Masharakat dengan sem bunyi2, saya hendak bertanya kapada beliau.

ada-kah anggota2 UMNO yang buat demikian juga?


Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, yang saya katakan tadi, walau pun tiket Loteri Kebajikan Masharakat itu ada, kita buat itu bukan untok orang Islam, kita buat untok orang yang tahu ma'ana nya yang kata-nya ini tidak elok, ah tinggalkan.

Ada orang PAS kata saya beli sembunyi2, saya sendiri nampak.

Letak bawah tikar, bila buka loteri tengok su.rat khabar, dia tutup pintti tidak kena tengok itu kena tahu, Tuan (Ketawa).
Saya sendiri Yang di-Pertua, tetapi chakap dalam Dewan ini haram.

dia buat halal itu lah keluar fatua tadi, kalau sembunyi2 tidak apa kata dia, yang haram-nya kalau terang2.

Apa hukum Allah ta'ala yang terang2.

sembunyi2, gelap2 sa-rupa sahaja.

haram itu, tidak ada yang halal-nya.

kalau yang haram.

loteri Jadi sekarang ini kita jelaskan, kita membuat Rang Undang2 ini bukan kita hendak panggil orang beli-lah ini.

tidak.
tidak.

Tetapi kita hendak mengawal jangan ada satu kumpulan yang haram ini nanti-nya dan yang melakukan menchari keuntongan bagi diri-nya sendiri, bukan sahaja dia dapat untong.

tetapi nanti orang lain kena aniaya dan negara akan rugi.

Tadi kita katakan.

kita telah rugi dua million ringgit selalu kita terbangkan keluar.

Ini sama ada Rang Undang2 ini kita luluskan atau tidak benda ini berlaku.
mana lebeh baik kita kawal atau kita biarkan dia berjalan, bukan kita baharu hendak buat pertarohan bola ini-teka bola bukan baharu hendak buat, bukan kita hendak buat, benda ini sudah berjalan, chuma dia itu tidak legal-tidak ada kelulusan Undang2, kita hendak legalisekan sekarang.

Kita hendak buat kawalan Undang2, benda itu berjalan terus.

Ini yang tidak arti oleh kawan2-nya.

Yang di-katakan ini haram.

ini haram.


Kita kata, kita yakin; saya katakan tadi haram judi itu terang dalam Qur'an, dalam Hadis terang, joget poo haram, minum pun haram-itu-lah kata saya tadi masok pilehan raya ini pun banyak haram, tetapi orang PAS buat.

Bila masok dalam perut dia-halal, bila orang UMNO sahaja buat haram, pakat dengan orang yang bukan Islam kapada kita haram.

pada dia halal.
pada dia halal.

Ini tidak boleh-lah Undang2 Islam kita bawa mengikut hawa nafsu kita dan chara yang saperti ini-lah Islam ini rosak.

Hakikat Islam itu, rahsia Islam, telah di-rosakkan oleh orang2 PAS dan sayang-nya Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada Batu (Ketawa) tadi ada ber chakap macham sa-orang yang 'alim di-dalam "Ini benda haram, tidak patut buat.

Islam pun kata bagitu".

Ini haram.

bukan ini sahaja.

tengok orang punya kema luan, tengok orang punya urat pun haram (Ketawa).
Doktor buka orang punya pusat-haram (Ketawa).

Bukan Jadi itu itu jangan-lah hendak ambil Islam daripada ini sahaja.

Saya harap Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Batu saya pelawa masok Islam dan saya bersedia untok mengaj~r Ahli Yang Berhormat tentang Islam.

Islam mengatakan: sahaja haram (Ketawa).

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, jadi ini-lah benda yang di-kelirukan di-dalam Dewan ini oleh Ahli2 daripada PAS utama-nya dan dia kata kalau awak tidak malu buat-lah apa yang awak suka.
Kita bukan hendak buat benda yang haram-kita tidak buat benda yang ha.ram.

Kita hendak mengawal sa-suatu itu jangan berlaku dan jangan dia menganiaya orang lain.

Ini kalau di-dalam kaedah ugama di-namakan "ahakful dharurat dararai".

Kalau dua benda ini berlaku sama2 haram yang mana kita hendak lakukan, kita ambit yang lebeh reng~n daripada kita membiarkan.

Kita biarkan bukan sahaja orang nanti teraniaya.

tipu, wang negara nanti rugi, tetapi juga nanti kumpulan2 ini akan rengan.
Mengawal ini 3133 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3134 menchari kesempatan untok diri-nya sendiri, tetapi dengan ada-nya penga ini, maka kita akan dapat walan mengawal sa-suatu boleh merosakkan negara kita .

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Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, untok penjelasan.

Tadi wakil Perak Hilir .

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Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah: Hilir Perak.

itu sa-siapa beli Dr Tan Chee Khoon: .

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Kera jaan mengawal perjudian ini, tetapi perjudian itu memang haram, tetapi oleh sebab Kerajaan Pusat hendak tidak mengawal haram.

Saya hendak bertanya kapada wakil itu tadi saya sudah sebutkan pekerjaan saperti di-katakan "world oldest profession".

ltu kalau mengikut fikiran beliau boleh-kah Kerajaan saperti perjudian ini mengawal peker jaan itu.

ltu-lah saya hendak bertanya kapada beliau.


Mr Speaker: Barangkali dia kurang faham "world oldest profession" itu tadi.

Terangkan sadikit (Ketawa).

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Tidak payah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalau beliau ada senang sadikit saya boleh bawa pergi ka-Kampong Semarang, ka-Batu Lane, beliau tentu-lah faham (Ketawa).

lebeh pelachoran, Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalau soal itu hendak di-bahathkan, saya lebeh suka soal2 pelachoran itu di-adakan undang2.
suka, bukan undang2 Saya tetapi menghalalkan undang2 mengawal pelachoran, bagitu juga soal ini, bukan undang2 meng halalkan judi, tetapi undang2 mengawal kuasa2-nya.

perbuatan2 yang bukan legal, yang bukan ada undang2• Sama ada undang2 pelachoran itu kita buat di-sini atau tidak, pelachoran berjalan terus di-belakang rumah Ahli Yang Berhormat itu (Ketawa) menurut ke terangan dia sa-bentar tadi berlaku, tetapi mana lebeh baik kita buat undang2 atau kita biar macham itu?
Kalau di-buat undang2 lebeh dapat ke nali-Ahli ini dia-nya orang pelachor, pakai locheng mithal-nya, pakai lesen mithal-nya, pakai chap tentang dahi dia mithal-nya, lebeh kita kenal, orang ini orang pelachor daripada kita biar kan sahaja sama ada pelachor itu terhormat atau tidak.
Saya lebeh suka supaya di-adakan undang2 dan Kera jaan Perikatan ini saya harap supaya membuat satu Rang Undang2 untok mengawal pelachoran supaya pelachor2 ini dapat mereka itu pergi jumpa sa kurang2-nya ka-Kelinik Tan untok memereksa (Ketawa) sama ada dia itu mempunyai penyakit yang menolar atau tidak-sa-kurang2-nya.

Mr Speaker: Saya suka hendak tanya macham mana perkara pool ini boleh tertarek kapada perkara itu?

(Ketawa).
(Ketawa).

Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya tidak ada ingat benda itu tadi, tetapi manakala Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Batu tadi dia chuit perkara itu, saya teruskan sahaja (Ketawa) sa-hingga Tuan Yang di-Pertua tegor saya.

itu Jadi itu-lah sebab-nya, kalau kita hendak mithalkan kapada undang2 dia kata sama · ada saya bersetuju a tau tidak-saya bersetuju supaya undang2 di-buat-undang2 pelachoran mengawal pelachoran.
Demikian juga sa-barang undang2 yang boleh merosak kan negara kita-kita sa-kali lagi saya katakan-dan saya orang2 Islam di dalam Perikatan ini menyakinkan Rang Undang2 ini sama sa-kali mempunyai tujuan menghalalkan apa yang di haramkan oleh Allah, tetapi tujuan nya ia-lah mengawal berlaku-nya sa suatu yang di-haramkan oleh undang2 dan oleh Tuhan mengikut undang2 supaya tidak merugikan negara dan tidak merugikan ra'ayat dan orang ramai seluroh-nya.

Terima kaseh.
Terima kaseh.

sa-lama Mr Speaker: Persidangan di-tempoh kan 10 minit.

Apabila meshuarat di-sambong sa-mula pehak Kementerian akan menggulong per bahathan.

Persidangan pukul 5.35 petang.

di-tanggohkan pada 3135 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3136 Persidangan di-sambong sa-mula pada pukul 5.55 petang.

chara besaran2 perbuatan yang salab itu di-katakan perbuatan perjudian.

(Tuan Speaker mempengerusikan meshuarat) Perbahathan di-sambong sa-mula.
Toan Hamzah bin Dato' Abu Samah: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sa-belum meng gulong perbahathan di-atas Rang Undang2 ini, saya sangat menguchap kan terima kaseh kapada Ahli2 Yang Berhormat yang telah membuat tego ran2 dan chadangan2 berkenaan dengan Rang Undang2 ini.

Pokok buah tegoran dan chadangan yang telah di-kemukakan pada Dewan ini nampak-nya semua berdasarkan kapada dua perkara.
Pertama-nya berdasar kapada ugama, kedua-nya di-pandang Rang Undang2 ini dari segi baik atau tidak baik-nya di ramai memandang kalangan orang kapada perkara sosial dan pergaulan.
Tentang masaalah ugama yang di bangkitkan oleh Ahli2 Yang Berhormat daripada Kelantan, di-sini nampak nya jawapan2 yang memuaskan telah di-buat oleh sahabat2 saya wakil dari pada Trengganu dan wakil daripada Perak, tetapi di-sini memadai-lah saya berkata dalam pada saya mengaku tidak bagitu dalam di-dalam saya filosifi dalam perkara ugama, bahawa pendirian saya ada-lah sa-mata2 bagini: ia-itu walau di-akui perbuatan Kum pulan Bola ini judi, ini ada-lah per kara terpulang sa-mata2 kapada sa saorang itu.
Undang2 di-buat bukan mengajak, bukan memaksa sa-saorang berjudi.

Undang2 sa-bagaimana ada-lah kata tadi, saya chuma chuma mengawal, undang2 mengesahkan satu perbuatan yang terma'alum telah berjalan sa-lama ini.

Tinggal lagi jikalau sa-kira-nya orang2 sa-bagai Ahli2 daripada Kelantan ber fikir mengambil bahagian di-dalam pertarohan, atau Pool Bola itu ada-lah perkara terpulang-lah kapada mereka itu menjauhkan diri daripada perbuatan yang di-fikirkan haram ini.
judi, maka sahabat ini, Saya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, juga berpendapat bahawa tidak tepat, tidak menasabah juga bagi tudohan yang di buat bahawa tidak ada Undang2 ini Kerajaan menggalakkan dengan sa- telah berura2, Sa-bagaimana Ahli2 Yang Berhormat di-Dewan ini ma'alum, Kerajaan memang melarang perbuatan judi yang berpuak2, yang sah, yang tidak di kawali, dengan mengadakan berbagai2 undang2 yang menetapkan berma cham2 perkara judi itu ada-lah salah di-sisi Undang2 • Perkara Pertarohan Bola ini bukan sa-bagaimana yang di katakan oleh wakil Batu, itu ada-lah satu perkara yang telah di-ranchang kan dengan tergopoh2, sa-takat yang saya tahu Yang Amat Berhormat Per dana Menteri telah menimbangkan perkara ini sejak, kalau tak salah saya, sa-tahun lama-nya.
Beliau sendiri telah giat, telah bersusah payah dengan sendiri-nya berutus ka negeri2 sa-lain daripada United King dom di-mana permainan ini di-jalan kan dengan besaran2.
Di-tanya kapada negeri2 umpama-nya negeri Brazil dan negeri Ghana chara2 bagaimana per mainan itu di-jalankan dan daripada jawapan2 yang di-terima oleh Yang Amat Berhormat Tunku Perdana Men teri itu beliau dan Ahli2 Jawatan kuasa yang di-tubohkan, saya katakan tadi tahun 1966 telah di-dapati bahawa permainan Pool Bola ini kalau di-urus kan dengan sempurna-nya, dengan kemas-nya, ada-lah menjadi satu per kara yang baik yang memberi faedah kapada negeri ini.
Dengan ini sa-lepas di-adakan beberapa meshuarat oleh jawatan-kuasa ini, Rang Undang2 ini mula di-gubalkan dengan nasihat2 yang telah di-dapati daripada pakar2 (expert) tahu benar2 atas perjalanan, yang J adi permainan pelaksanaan ini.

dengan nasihat pakar2 ini, Rang Undang2 ini sampai penyudah telah di-gubal oleh Pejabat Peguam Negara.
J adi kebimbangan bagi pehak wakil daripada Dato Keramat mengatakan harus barangkali timbul mala petaka, perkara yang tidak baik atau pun malpractice berkenaan dengan hal ini, saya rasa tidak-lah patut di-bimbang kan oleh kerana perjalanan, pelak sanaan permainan ini ada-lah telah di ranchangkan dengan sa-kemas2-nya dan mengikut sekshen2 yang terkan dong di-dalam Rang Undang2 ini per terator di-dalam mana siapan telah 3137 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3138 perjalanan ejen2 board yang mengurus kan perkara ini akan menjalankan, melaksanakan tanggongan-nya, tugas nya dengan sa-benar2 baik.
Dan me mandang kapada penting-nya perkara ini dalam pandangan Yang Teramat Mulia Tunku P~rdana Menteri beliau telah sa-bagaimana ma'alum, melantek sa-orang yang sangat2 jujor, yang sangat2 boleh di-perchayai' di-dalam tugas memimpin board atau pun per tubohan yang akan menguruskan per mainan ini.
Saya kurang ma'alum sama ada sahabat saya Yang Berhormat wakil daripada Batu ada biasa bermain pool ini, tetapi sa-takat yang saya tahu per mainan pool ini, kalau di-bandingkan dengan permainan yang 1ain2, bukan lah pada pendapat saya satu permainan yang 100% judi.

Permainan ini sa bagai mana pehak2 yang telah biasa bermain-nya ada-lah berkehendakkan kechekapan, kepandaian dan kalau boleh pengetahuan serba .sadikit di dalam permainan bola dan pasokan2 yang bertanding di-United Kingdom.
Jadi kalau sa-kira-nya sahabat saya wakil daripada Batu suka dan ada kelapangan, saya shorkan-lah, kalau boleh saya pun tolong teman .sa-bagai beliau chuba melupakan buat semen tara perkara politik, perkara mogok, perkara kelinik, dan bersama2 kita menchuba bermain permainan ini, saya jamin Yang Berhormat akan boleh menyukai' permainan ini ..... Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya minta penjelasan.
Tadi Yang Berhormat Menteri Muda Hal Ehwal Dalam Negeri hendak meng ajar saya tentang pasokan2 permainan bola di-United Kingdom, saya telah bagi tahu saya memang mengetahui pasokan2 saperti Arsenal, Manchester United, Liverpool, Conventry, Glasgow Rangers semua itu, tetapi ra'ayat di seluroh Malaysia tidak tahu pasokan2 tersebut.
Kalau ra'ayat di-seluroh Malaysia tidak faham ada beberapa pasokan, mana pasokan yang pandai bermain bola sepak bagaimana beliau boleh berchampor ini Football Pool, itu-lah yang saya hendak bertanya.
Tuan Hamzah bin Dato' Abu Samah: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya fikir kita mulakan, jalankan dahulu permainan · ini sa-jurus berjalan barangkali dalam 5 bulan, 6 bulan, saya jamin tiap2 orang di-sini tentu akan faham per mainan ini, tentu akan tahu bukan sahaja team2 pasokan yang mengambil bahagian di-dalam permainan bola di sini boleh jadi juga barangkali mereka itu pun tahu nama2 pemain, siapa jaga goal, siapa centre forward, siapa full back.

dengan tahun.
dengan tahun.

Di-dalam sa-bagaimana saya Yang Berhormat wakil daripada Dato Keramat ada mengatakan keraguan-nya berkenaan pcrmainan ini dengan Kerajaan mengambil sa-baha gian di-dalam menguruskan-nya akan harus memberi kerugian kapada Kera jaan.
Sa-balek-nya pula, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, telah katakan di-dalam perchakapan saya pagi tadi, perkara permainan ini telah di-selideki halus-nya oleh pakar2 iktisad, orang yang bertang gong-jawab dalam perkara kewangan di-dalam negeri ini dan mereka ber pendapat bahawa boleh jadi kalau ramai bilangan orang2 yang mengambil bahagian permainan ini tidak akan mendatangkan kerugian kapada Kera jaan.
Dalam pada itu sa-bagaimana Undang2 ini menyebut Kerajaan akan memberi tempoh perchubaan sa-lama dua tempoh dua tahun itu akan di-selideki, akan di semak, sama ada permainan ini elok di-jalankan sa-mata2 dengan kerjasama satu sharikat atau pun di-uruskan oleh satu perbadanan ia-itu Statutory Board dan pakar2 ini telah juga menyelideki dengan halus dan telah membuat ketetapan jika sa-kira-nya di-dalam tempoh dua tahun ini, ia-itu dua tahun perchubaan di-laksanakan.
di-jalankan permainan ini, kalau sa-kira-nya tidak dapat keuntongan sa-bagaimana yang di-harapkan itu, boleh jadi Kerajaan akan menimbangkan sama ada patut di-teruskan, di-jalankan permainan ini.

tetapi perkara yang patut Dewan ini mengambil ingatan ia-lah permainan ini tujuan utama di-lancharkan per mainan tujuan supaya kita boleh mendapat basil yang boleh membantu, menolong Kera jaan di-dalam ranchangan2 yang maseh di-jalankan di-dalam perkara sukan dan lain2-nya.
Tentang tegoran Yang Berhormat wakil daripada Batu atas berjalan kuat ia-lah dengan ini 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3140 3139 kuasa Undang2 ini di-kebelakangkan kapada bulan November saya.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

suka menyatakan di sini sa-bagaimana saya ma'alumkan tadi perkara Football Pool ini telah di-ranchangkan semenjak tahun dahulu mengambil masa sa-lama sa-tahun.

tetapi oleh kerana perkara ini terpaksa di-selideki dengan halus-nya.
dengan chermat-nya, maka telah sampai masa nya di-buat undang2 dan memandang kapada berjalan-nya musim bola di United Kingdom pada masa ini dan harus habis dalam masa cmpat bulan lagi, terpaksa-lah Kerajaan mengada kan undang2 ini dengan sa-berapa segera, kalau tidak terpaksa-lah ia-nya di-gubal di-buat pada tahun yang akan datang.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua: Masa kita ini berjalan; kalau ada apa2 lagi sila lah.

Tuan Bamzah bin Dato' Abu Samah: Sa-takat itu sahaja-lah uchapan saya.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua.


untok meng gulong perbahathan berkenaan dengan Rang Undang2 ini.

Terima kaseh.

Usul di-kemukakan.

dan di-setuju kan.

Rang Undang2 di-bachakan kali yang kedua dan di-serahkan kapada Dewan sa-bagai Jawatan-kuasa.

Dewan bersidang sa-bagai Jawatan kuasa.

Rang Undang2 di-timbangkan dalam Jawatan-kuasa.


(Tuan Yang di-Pertua mempengerusikan meshuarat dalam Jawatan-kuasa) Fasa/, 1 hingga 10- Dr Tan Cllee Khoon: Mr Chairman, Sir, may I seek clarification since the Honourable Assistant Minister of Home Affairs did not, I think, in his reply touch on one point that I have raised?

In Clause 7, it says: "The Board shall consist of not more than ten members whom the Minister may appoint by name or office".
In Clause 9 (2), it reads: "All questions at the meeting of the Board shall be deter mined by a majority of the members personally present and voting; and each present shall be entitled to cast one vote.

and in event of an equality of voters the member presiding shall have a second or casting vote."

I maintain that in the first place, the composition of the members of the board is less fluid in that it shall cohsist of not more than ten members.
In the other, the definition of a "quorum" is not clearly stated there-it merely states "deter mined by a majority".

Now supposing that the Minister shall decide that, let us say, ten members shall comprise the Board; then when a meeting is called, seven members are not free; then you have only three members present and by a majority opinion, that is two, what ever decision is made is carried out.
I submit that this is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs and that the quorum should be clearly stated: either you say that it is five, or you should say that at least half of the members of the Board shall form a quorum.

Under this set up, it is very vague.

and I submit that it may well lead to mal-practices despite the trust that Members of this House have in the Chairman-designate.
Tuan Bamzah bin Dato' Abu Samah: Tuan Pengerusi, untok penjelasan saya bersetuju di-Undang2 di-mana satu Lembaga di-tubohkan biasa-nya di tetapkan bilangan quorum, tetapi tidak di-dalam Undang2 itu, tetapi Undang2 ini jelas-nya yang menetapkan bilangan ahli 10 orang dan majority di-dalam Lembaga ini ia-lah 5 orang atau 6 orang.
Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Tuan Penge rusi, tadi Menteri Muda Hal Ehwal Dalam Negeri telah bersetuju, tetapi beliau malang-nya berkata sekarang beliau hendak membawa pindaan atau tidak untok melaksanakan persetujuan beliau.

tidak Tuan Bamzah bin Dato' Abu Sam.ah: Tuan Pengerusi, perkara ini saya ber pendapat ada-lah jelas, sunggoh pun bilangan quorum satu Lembaga itu tidak di-sebut dengan ada-nya fasal perkara dalam 9 di-mana mengatakan majority quorum di-dalam Board itu ada-lah suara yang terbesar .
Tuan Pengerusi: Fasal nombor berapa?

3141 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3142 Tuan Bamzah bin Dato' Abu Samah: Fasal yang ke-9 di-mana ada tersebut sa-bilangan quorum Lembaga ini ada lah sa-bilangan llesar daripada ahli2 yang telah di-lantek oleh Lembaga.

Saya berpendapat bahawa bilangan yang di-katakan majority itu ada-lah tidak kurang daripada 5 atau 6 orang ahli· nya.

Tuan Pengerusi: Di-dalam Fasal 9 itu pechahan nombor berapa?

Tuan Hamzah bin Dato' Abu Samah: Fasal 9, cheraian (1).
Tuan Pengerusi: Fasal 9 cheraian (1}--itu-lah yang di-soal oleh Ahli daripada Batu ini.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Ia, Tuan Pengerusi.

If I may elaborate a little.

It looks that Clause 9 (1) is in con flict .

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Tuan Pengerusi: Saya berpegang kapada bahasa kebangsaan, salinan ada 2-satu bahasa kebangsaan, satu bahasa Inggeris.

Bahasa kebangsaan yang hendak kita luluskan ini.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Boleh juga, Tuan Pengerusi.

Fasal 9 (1) melanggar fasal 9 (2) .

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Tuan Pengerusi: Saya baharu dapat keterangan bahasa Inggeris boleh di luluskan.

Jadi kita balek kapada bahasa Inggeris.

Clause 9 (1) berbunyi: "The quorum of the Board shall be a majority of Members appointed to the Board but subject thereto the Board may act notwithstanding my vacancy its number."

in Dr Tan Chee Khoon: If I may clarify, Mr Chairman, Sir.
Clause 9 (1) is very clear: It says "the majority of members" which means it must be at least five, if not six.

That is very clear.

What is not clear is Clause 9 (2}- "All questions at the meeting of the Board shall be determined by a majority of the members personally present .

.

."

which means that the members present personally may well be three, may well be four.

Mr Chainnan: Boleh.
Mr Chainnan: Boleh.

Dato' Baji Abdul-Rahman bin Ya'kub: If there are 10 members, as in accordance with Clause 7, then, in order for the Board to have a quorum, you must have at least five.

If only four members turn up, there is no quorum, then no meeting can be held.

So, the question does not arise at all.

On the other hand, if the Minister only appointed five persons, then three will form a quorum, but if two turn up then no meeting can be held because there will be no quorum.
I think we have got a simple majority and those who are present, the majority, will decide the question.

Fasal 1 hingga JO di-perentahkan menjadi sa-bahagian daripada Rang Undang2.

Fasal 11 hingga 32 di-perentahkan menjadi sa-bahagian daripada Rang Undang2.

Rang Undang2 di-laporkan dengan tidak ada pindaan.

di-bachakan kali yang ketiga dan di-luluskan.
USUL ORDINANCE PERATORAN KEWANGAN, TABUN 1967 Menanam wang 'ift•bagai modal dalam Sports Pool (M) Sendirian Berhad oleh Kerajaan Setia-usaha Parlimen kapada Menteri Kewangan (Toan Ali bin Haji Ahmad): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya mohon menchadangkan: Bahawa mengikut sekshen 8 (3) (d) Undang2 Peratoran Kewangan, 1957, Dewan ini meng ambil ketetapan ia-itu wang yang tersimpan di-dalam Kumpulan Wang Yang di-Satukan boleh-lah di-tanam sa-bahagian modal Sports Pool (M) Sendirian Berhad dengan sharat penanaman modal tersebut tidak melebehi 40 peratus daripada jumlah modal yang di-benarkan bagi sharikat terse but.
sa-bagai Tite Minister of Lands and Mines (Dato' Baji Abdul-Rahman bin Ya'kub): Kalau boleh chakap dalam lnggeris?

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saperti mana Ahli2 Yang Berhormat sedia ma'alum, Dewan ini telah pun meluluskan Rang Undang2 yang membolehkan Pertarohan 3143 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3144 Kumpul (Pool Betting) di-jalankan di negeri ini.
Di-samping memberi kuasa kapada Menteri yang bertanggong-jawab untok lesen kapada mana2 mengeluarkan pertubohan atau orang untok memaju dan menjalankan Pertarohan Kumpul, terdapat juga perbekalan dalam Rang Undang2 itu yang membolehkan Ke rajaan menubohkan sa-buah Lembaga untok memaju dan menjalankan Per tarohan Kumpul ini.

Sa-bagai permulaan, Kerajaan ber chadang melesen Sports Pools (Malay sia) Sendirian Berhad untok memaju dan menjalankan Pertarohan Kumpul sa-bagai perchubaan sa-lama dua tahun.
Sharikat ini ada-lah pemilek-hak tunggal (concessionaire) bagi dua sharikat per tarohan kumpul British, ia-itu Vernons Pools Ltd, dan Littlewoods Pools Ltd. Kerajaan akan mengulang kaji dan menimbangkan sama ada akan terus membenarkan sharikat tersebut me neruskan pertarohan kumpul ini atau pun Kerajaan sendiri akan menubohkan sa-buah Lembaga Berkanun mengikut Act tersebut.
Untok menentukan bahawa permainan ini di-jalankan dengan betul dan adil, untok menentukan pengelolaan yang sempurna pekerjaan ini dan untok membuka jalan bagi Lembaga Ber kanun Kerajaan mengambil aleh per niagaan ini apabila masa atau keadaan membolehkan-nya maka Kerajaan ber chadang hendak menyertai dengan giat akan perniagaan Sports Pools (Malay sia) Sendirian Berhad dengan menanam modal sa-jumlah wang tidak lebeh dari jumlah modal pada 40% daripada saham sharikat tersebut.
Penyataan demikian memberi Kera jaan hak untok melantek dua orang wakil ka-dalam Lembaga Pengarah sharikat tersebut.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya me mohon chadangan ini di-luluskan.

Tuan Hamzah bin Dato' Haji Abu Samah: Tuan Yang di Pertua, saya menyokong.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon (Batu) (dengan izin): Mr Speaker, Sir, just now we introduced by have heard how the Pool Betting Bill was the Assistant Minister of Home Affairs, who is also the President of the M.C.A.
Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, lest I be misunderstood, "M.C.A."

in this instance does not stand for "money counting agency", or "mon~y collecting agency."

It stands for ''Malayan Cricket Association" a very laudable Association as opposed to many of its other inte1:pretations that one can put on M.C.A.

Now, he is, of course, besides cricket, also associated with football.
I shudder to think if, in a year or two, he says that we should have a pool for cricket, and then the President of the Badminton Association says, "Let us have a pool for badminton matches."

Then, there is basketball.

In this instance, we are asked to contribute 40% to these pools amounting to, we are told, about $100,000.
I think that having got this Bill through, the Government really should be very, very careful in not trying to introduce many more pools of this nature, so as not to inflict the taxpayers with other sums of money.

Tuan Hamzah bin Dato' Abu Samah: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Honourable Member will realise that cricket is not like soccer.

Cricket always, as he knows, ends up in draws and, if you have pools in cricket, you will never get winners because you can always forecast at in 12 games.
least 12 drawns Dr Tan Chee Khoon: If I may explain, Mr Speaker, Sir, I do know that cricket usually ends in draw, but where the Central Government is con cerned, "Where there .is a will, there is a way."

(Laughter).

Usul di-mukakan dan di-setujukan.


Di-putuskan, Bahawa menurut sekshen 8 (3) (d) Ordi nance Peratoran Kewangan tahun 1967, Majlis ini mengambil ketetapan ia-itu wang2 yang tersimpan dalam Kumpulan Wang Yang di-Satukan hendak-lah di-tanam sa-bagai modal saham dalam the Sports Pool (M) Sendirian Berhad dengan sharat penanaman modal saperti itu tidak lebeh daripada 40 peratus daripada modal yang di-benarkan dalam sharikat tersebut.
3145 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3146 RANG UNDANG2 TIIE INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL Bachaan Kali Yang Kedua clan Ketiga Menteri Muda Kewangan (Dr Ng Kam P.oh): Mr Speaker, Sir, with your permission to speak in English, I beg to move that a Bill intituled "An Act to amend the Income Tax Act, 1967", be read a second time.

replace for Malaysia .

Last August when the Minister of Finance introduced the Income Tax Act the to existing three separate Income Tax Inland Revenue Ordinances of West Malaysia.
Sabah and Sarawak, he gave an assurance that if it was found necessary, he would be prepared to bring to this House an amending Bill to effect changes considered desirable as a result of further representations received.

The Bill now before the House is partly to give effect to that assurance and partly to afford the House an opportunity to debate the transitional provisions.

These provi sions are necessarily complex and lengthy because of the displacement of three separate Tax Ordinances by a single Act.
They are spelt out in the proposed new Schedule 9.

The oppor tunity has also been taken to alter the Language of certain provisions to express intention more clearly as well to make drafting amendments as where such are considered desirable.

The Bill makes it clear that the Act, except where Schedule 9 otherwise provides, has application only for the year of assessment 1968 and subse quent years of assessment.
However, some of the provisions of the Act may be applied in certain circumstances for the repealed Ordi the purpose of nances.

This is to avoid having to take action separately under the Act and the repealed laws.

The Bill enables the Minister of Finance to make an Order under sec tion 6 of the Act to vary not only the rates of tax but also the rate of abate ment individual resident in East Malaysia in respect of exceeding chargeable for an income from not tax $50,000 per annum.
It is incongruous that whilst the Minister of Finance has power to vary the rates of tax, he should not be able to vary the rate of abatement.

The Bill seeks to reduce the period of aggregate residence of an individual in Malaysia from 91 days to 30 days over a number of years for the purpose of determining whether or not he should be treated as being ordinarily resident in Malaysia for a particular year for the purpose of the application of the world income scope of charge for that year.
Without this amendment it would be possible for a taxpayer to escape this scope of charge by moving his residence outside Malaysia and yet to make regular visits to continue Malaysia in each year for periods aggregating 90 days for the purpose of his business, or for other purposes in Malaysia.
In the case of an individual ordi narily resident in Malaysia for any year who leaves Malaysia in that year and who is not likely again to become resident in Malaysia for the five years following the year of departure, it is considered reasonable that he should be treated as resident but not ordi~ narily resident for the year of depar ture.
Without such a provision the taxpayer would continue to be ordi narily resident in Malaysia for the year of his departure and so be liable to tax on the world income scope of charge.

Appeals against assessments made are to be heard by three Special Com missioners instead of by two as provi ded for in the Act, so that a decision of the Special Commissioners will be based on a majority vote.
Provision is also made for the appointment of a Chairman and of at least one Special Commissioner having judicial or other legal experience.

The maximum fine for making an incorrect return or for giving incorrect information is increased from $1,000 to $5,000, and for obstructing an Inland Revenue officer in the performance of his duties from $1,000 to $2,000, or to a term of imprisonment not exceeding one year, or to both.
3147 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3148 The Act presently provides that exemption from tax will be granted in respect of sums received by way of gratuity on retirement from an employ ment, if the retirement takes place- (a) on account of ill health; or (b) in the case of a male employee on or after 55 years of age, or in the case of a female employee, on or after 50 years of age.
The Bill seeks to remove any possi bility of tax avoidance by providing that exemption will only be granted in respect of a gratuity payable in respect of an employment which has lasted at least 10 years with the same employer or with companies in the same group.

Any gratuity not so exempted will be spread over the period of the employ ment, subject to a maximum of five years.
to safeguard both Consequential on the repeal of the three existing Ordinances which pro vide for different bases of assessment and also different scopes of charge to tax, special transitional provisions are necessary the interests of the Revenue and of the taxpayer.
The most important of these provisions are those dealing with relief to be given to those whose income for a period has been taxed for more than one year of assessment under the commencing provisions of the West Malaysian Ordinance, or those the whole or part of whose income having already been taxed under either the Sarawak or Sabah Ordinance, will again be subject to tax under the new Act, e.g.
in the case of Sarawak where employment income is taxed on a current year basis and since the new Act taxes income on a preceding year basis, an employee's remuneration for 1967 will be subject to tax for the year of assessment 1967 under the Sarawak Inland Revenue Ordinance and again for the year of Assessment 1968 under the new Act.

It is not possible to exempt from tax the 1967 remuneration for the year of assess ment 1968 under the new Act since it would mean a tax holiday for that year for in Sarawak.
Similarly, since Sabah's year of assess- the salary earner ment ·ends on 30th June in the case of a person other than a company, to grant exemption from tax for the year of assessment 1968 under the new Act of income which is taxed for the Sabah year of assessment to 30th June, 1968, would mean a comparable tax holiday.
As for the West Malaysian taxpayer, some measure of relief is considered justifiable having regard to the fact that he will no longer get the benefit of the cessation provisions although he has the commencement been subject provisions of the West Malaysian Income Tax Ordinance.

to The Bill provides for the relief to be given by way of a tax credit.
In general, the tax paid for the year of assessment 1967 under the repealed law will represent the amount of the credit which will become payable in the following circum any one of stances: (a) in the case of an individual, (i) if he has attained the age of 60 years prior to 1st January, 1968; or (ii) on his attaining the age of 60 years on or after 1st January, 1968; or (iii) on his death at any time after 31st December, 1967; or (iv) on his permanent departure from Malaysia if he is not a citizen and if in the year of his departure he ceases to from have Malaysia; or (v) in the year 1988; income (b) In the case of a company, that (i) on a genuine liquidation; or (ii) in the year 1988.
The Bill also has the usual tax avoid ance clause, so the cessation provisions of the West Malaysian Ordinance will not be applied where there is an artificial cessation of a business on or after 15th June, 1967 (the date of publication of the Proposed Income Tax Bill) and to ensure that the credit will not be payable if the 3149 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3150 liquidation of a company after 31st December, 1967, is artificial.
The above proposals are designed to stagger the payment of the credit over a period of 20 years, so that the revenue in any one year will not be seriously affected.
the Minister At the last session of this House, when of Finance announced a fresh amnesty for tax evaders he expressed the hope that the tax delinquent would avail himself of this last opportunity to put his tax affairs in order by 31st March, 1968, without the fear of prosecution or the need to make any financial restitution for the tax evaded.

The response, I to say, has been most dis regret appointing.

I am sure that this is not because there are very few persons who have evaded tax.
I am, however, more disposed to attribute the poor response either to the dilatory attitude of the tax evader to come forward or to his understandable desire to take the best counsel available before making a voluntary and full disclosure of his past misdemeanours.

Or perhaps there has not been sufficient publicity of the amnesty.

I would, therefore, request the Press to co-operate by giving the widest possible publicity to this matter.

In any event, time is running out for the tax evader.
In view of the enhanced penal provisions in the principal Act, and this Bill as well, and the very generous terms of the amnesty, I hope that many more people who have not been contributing their fair share to the national Exchequer will accept the amnesty.

Let it not be said later, when the Inland Revenue Department has caught up with the tax evader, that he has not received fair and adequate warning of what is in store for him if he chooses to ignore the amnesty offer.
During the debate on the Income Tax Bill in August last, the Minister of Finance stated that notes to explain the Bill would be published for the benefit and the information of the tax paying public.

The notes have been prepared and are now ready to be printed.

The Minister of Finance would have authorised the publication but for the amending Bill now before the House.
Rather than that the explana tory notes should be published now and thereafter a revised edition incorporat ing the amendments under debate is issued, it is proposed to publish an up-to-date set of the explanatory notes soon after this Bill has been passed by Parliament.

·.Sir, I beg to move.

Menteri Buroh (Tuan V. Manicka vasagam): Sir, I beg to second the motion.
Tuan Ong Kee Bui (Sarawak) (dengan izin): Mr Speaker, Sir, at the last meeting of this House, the Govern ment rushed through the Income Tax Act, 1967, giving little, if any, time at all for us to give very serious detailed consideration to the Bill.

Such an ~mportant and very complicated piece of legislation, Sir, merits very careful scrutiny and expert advice.
That our criticism of the unholy haste with which this piece of legislation was rushed through the House is valid is now borne out by the fact that it has been found necessary to introduce this Amendment Bill now, barely three months after the Act was passed by the House.

Again, with this Amendment Bill, Sir, inadequate notice was given to us, those who come from particularly Eastern Malaysia.

We only saw the Bill when we arrived here.


Why was it not possible to let us have the Bill earlier, so that at least we can make a closer study of the implication of these amendments to the Act?

It is true, Sir, that many of the amendments seem to be innocuous enough and, according to the explanation given by the Honour able Assistant Minister of Finance, necessary in the light of experience and in order to clarify certain points.
The Amendment Bill, however, con tains repeal of Schedule 9 of the Act and its replacement by an entirely new Schedule, which runs into 118 Clauses.

Part III of the Schedule, Clauses 82 to 99, are special provisions for Sarawak.

I must confess, Sir, that I am at a loss 3151 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3152 as to how exactly these Clauses are going to affect the people of the State.
The only thing that struck me, Sir, is that under Clause 3 of the Amendment Bill, the Minister of Finance will have the power to prescribe and vary the rates, he has not got the power to vary it should be the abatement.

But remembered that it is precisely against that the acquisition of provision the London· is made Agreement, that the people of the two States of Sabah and Sarawak should be protected in this respect.
It seems to me that in giving this power now to the Minister, we are, in fact, eroding away the special position of the people of Sarawak in regard to taxation.

that power in On the Amendment Bill itself, Sir, I will not venture to make comments, as it is an impossible task in the time available to us, for any Honourable Member, unless he is a tax expert, to make any constructive and intelligent comments.
I will, therefore, confine my comment to one Clause, because this strikes me particularly, and that is Clause 4 of the Bill, which seeks to amend section 7 of the Act.

Now Sec tion 7 (1) (c) of the Act provides that a person, whether he is a Malaysian or not, should not be ·considered as a resident of Malaysia, if he has not been resident in Malaysia for at least a total of 91 days during the basis year for a particular year of assessment to qualify him as a resident in Malaysia.
I beg to point out, Sir, that the provision in this section to Malaysian students who are unable to study by an endowment specially set aside for them, the income of which enables them to study abroad, because particularly those students who are studying overseas, say, in United King dom, Canada or the United States of America, as they are required to pay, if they are not resident for 92 days in the year of assessment, 40 per cent tax on their incomes as non-residents.
It is not possible, Sir, for a student to get 92 days' hoilday in a year and, in particular, I beg to point out that students studying medicine, parti cularly, overseas are expected to work during the critical year at the hospital during vacation and, therefore, it is throws undue hardship in impossible for them to return to Malay sia even for a month, which is the amendment proposed the Bill.
Furthermore, Sir, the passage alone from a place, say, in the United King dom, the Umted States of America or Canada, is so heavy and prohibitive that it is very difficult for the student to return-perhaps the cost of the pass age would be more than the tax that he will have to pay.

They are particularly penalised, therefore, by this section.
It is true they can claim non-residential relief provided under Clause 131 (a) of the Act, but in order to do that they will have to pay the tax first, and one knows that once you pay into the Treasury, it is very difficult for anyone to get it out again, and therefore the students would be deprived of the use of the funds which he has already paid by way of tax.
I would, therefore, Sir, urge the Government to give this mat ter very careful consideration and, if it is at all possible, to amend Clause 7 in a suitable manner in order to exempt Malaysian students studying abroad from this residential requirement, so that they could be treated as residents for tax purposes.
Dr Tan Chee Khoon (dengan izin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member from Sarawak has protested against the way in which the then Income Tax Bill was brought before this House and how it was steamrolled through this House.

is With your permission, Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to register and I hope the Press will print what I register, a differ ent type of protest.

We know that at 4 o'clock the Government stood up and moved a Motion, "That this House shall adjourn sine die as soon as all Government business finished".
Now, I submit, Mr Speaker, Sir, that this is a gross, blatant and flagrant violation of the promise solemnly given to us by the Prime Minister in this House, that in a six-day session one day would be set aside for Opposition business.

After all, we have a stake in the proceedings of this House.

We do not come here just to participate in Government business alone.
The Mem ber for Tanjong has two motions on the Order Paper and it is but right that we 3153 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3154 in this House should be given the chance to debate these two motions.
We do know that one of the motions is high· ly critical and, perhaps, very embarras sing to the Government, and threfore in order not to get it debated it has sought this device, because of the tyranny of its huge majority that it has in this House, to stand up and propose, "That this House shall stand adjourned sine die at the conclusion of all Government business".

Of course, we are realistic enough that the Government can have its way, but I say that this is a viola tion of parliamentary democracy.
If parliamentary democracy in this coun try is to mean anything, then the Oppo sition must feel that they have a stake in the working, in the mechanics, of parliamentary democracy in this coun try.

Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, to come back to what the Member has pointed out, we know that on August 24th at 6.30 p.m., when the Minister of Finance moved the then Income Tax Bill, the way it was bulldozed through this House was, to say the least, a piece of political chicanery.
We know that when the Bill was passed in this House there were only two people present my comrade, or friend, the Member from Sarawak, Enche' Stephen Yong and I. I say that it is a travesty of justice that an important Bill of this nature should be passed when only two Opposition Members were present, not that the Opposition Members were not capable of debating that Bill, that we were not interested, but we were told.
earlier on in the day when the Govern ment moved a motion, "that this House shall not rise until 7 p.m." But then at 6.30 p.m. the Government moved all sorts of motions and then at 8 p.m. moved, "that this House shall not rise until the Bill is disposed of".

I say this is a flagrant violation of every concept of justice that one can find anywhere in the world.
As a result of this, Mr Speaker, Sir, you can see how disillu sioned we on this side of the House are-one, two, three, four-only four of us are interested in this business or in passing this Bill before this House today.
The Member from Sarawak has pointed out how he, coming from East Malaysia, was shocked to find this Amendment to Income Tax Bill before this House, and his experience was no different from mine-when I came to this House on Monday, I was shocked to see this thick amending Bill and I was seeing it for the first time.
Like the Member from Sarawak, I submit that the Income Tax Bill is a highly technical one; that even the experts will take perhaps one or two years to read through and understand this Income Tax Bill.

Then you plunge an Amend ing Bill before this House, and what are we to do?

Of course, the Govern ment, with its huge majority again can bulldoze this through.

But, again, I say that if the Press publicise what the Member from Sarawak and I have pointed out, the Government must hang its head in shame.
then happened-what Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, this Income Tax Act is a consolidating Bill.

It is a Bill that is supposed to consolidate all the previous Bills in existence then.
Now, as such, a consolidating Bill should have no flaws in it, and we do know what the Income Tax Bill was debated on the 24th of August, 1967, the Government itself brought a whole heap of amend ments before this House, and I myself brought, I think, about 32 amendments before this House, and the Government accepted, I think, a few of my amend ments as being meritorious of consi deration and acceptable by the Govern ment.
I just wish to say this, Mr Speaker, Sir: on an important Bill like this, the Government must give us time to study it; the Member from Sarawak is a businessman, and he, perhaps, has a little knowledge of Income Tax practices and the like; I am a private practitioner, pure and simple; I am not income tax expert.

So, how are we, as I pointed out at that time, to digest 204 pages of highly technical stuff and this time 64 Clauses running into 64 pages.
How are we to digest such an indigestable stuff during such a short period of time?

At that time, on August 24th, I said that where income tax is concerned particularly, the Government, should say what it means and mean what it says.

And I 3155 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3156 quoted quite extensively from Hals bury's Laws of England to find out how the Government in its haste to bring forth and pass that Bill was guilty of faulty drafting.
And true enough, Mr Speaker, Sir, today we have before us a Bill consisting of 64 amendments running into 64 pages to amend the Income Tax Act.

Then, we have a corrigenda running into two pages to correct the Amendment Bill.

Then, we have an amendment to the amendment, is a Mr Speaker, Sir.

Now, fantastic state of affairs.


If the legal draftsmen are not up then the Government properly speaking should consider things, very carefully and not be so slipshod and in such an indecent, unseemly haste to pass these amendments now before this House.

In a little while later, I shall point out how even these amend ments to the Act, this corrigenda and these amendments to the amendments are not perfect in themselves.

these this it, to Mr Speaker: What corrigenda are you referring to?
Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Here you are, Mr Speaker, Sir, Income Tax Bill, No.

78 of 67, Income Tax Amendment Bill corrigenda.

Mr Speaker: Well, I have not got that.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Well, some body is at fault if this is not handed over to you.

Mr Speaker: No, we are all provided with the same things.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Now, this was handed out earlier, Mr Speaker, Sir .. Then, they obviously had second thoughts and brought forth a bigger set of amendments.
Mr Speaker, Sir, I just want to point out to the Honourable Assistant Minister of Finance just one small discrepancy that is obvious in the Bill before us-Clause 63-and I do hope that he will now of his own quickly get in touch with the Legal Draftsman and provide a quick solu tion.

otherwise he will be a laughing stock of the lawyers in this country, and I am no lawyer.

Now Mr Speaker, Sir, as we can see on page 28, Clause 63 has 4 sub-clauses-(a), (b), (c), (d) and it ends at (d).
I hope the Assistant Minister of Finance has it-it ends at (d).

Now, if you look at the explanatory notes on Clause 63, you will see that it says as follows: "Clause 63- Amendments (a) to (d) are drafting amendments.

Amendment (e) restricts the exemption on retiring gratuities except in case of illhealth to cases where the employee has served at least 10 years with the same company or group."
As you can see, Clause 63 on pages 28 and 29 does not go beyond (d), and yet in the explanatory note, we are told that there is a clause (e).

Now, I hope there is a quick re-thinking of this Bill to see whether you can reconcile what is being written in the amendment and what is being written in the explana tory notes.
Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, the introduc tion to the explanatory notes is a very disarming and charming way of soothing fears, and I shall read: "This Bill seeks to amend the Income Tax Act, 1967 ('The Principal Act'), in order to include more detailed transitional provisions to effect amendments which appear and desirable as a result of representations which have been made since the principal Act was passed.

The opportunity is taken to include other amendments of lesser importance."
Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, there are three parts here: (1) this amending Bill seeks to include more detailed transi tional amendments; (2) then it seeks to effect amendments which appear desirable as a result of representations; and (3) include other amendments of lesser importance.
it seeks to Now, I say that this is a false repre sentation of what is contained in this amending Bill, because we all know that this Amendment Bill, as I shall discuss in a little while later in more detail, contains many Clauses which increase the penalties.

Now, that being so, can it come under detailed transi tional provisions?

Obviously, not.

it come under representations Can which has been made?
If it is so, then I would like to know from the Assis tant Minister of Finance, who has made representations to see that the penalties as contained in Clauses 46 3157 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3158 / that and 47 of this Amendment Bill should be increased.

Or does he want to tell these amendments wherein us penalties are stiffened, are to include other amendments of less importance?

Now I submit that these Clauses 46 and 4 7 are not less importance to the taxpayer.
Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, when we were debating the Income Tax Bill on August 24th 1967, I was accused by the Honourable the Minister of Finance as being the devil's advocate.

Since then, the Press has published my speech.

I have sent my speech to a number of people, and they told me in no uncertain terms that I was per the fectly correct interests of the.

taxpayers-and accord ing to the written answer to a question that I have asked, they numbered 140,000 in this country.

looking after in if it that Now.


the is obvious Government chooses to heap more and more penalties on the humble, poor, innocent and maybe docile taxpayers, then someone should sit up and take notice, and form an association for the protection of taxpayers in this country, so as to see that the tyranny and repressive measures of the Executive are contained.

Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, what I have said is not without foundation.
I shall now proceed to read a letter from a person-well, he has signed himself and I do not see why I should not read his name; he has written to the Deputy Prime Minister, he has given his name as Hwang Siew Hock; he has given his address as 168 Petaling Street, Kuala Lumpur, and the date is 13th November, 1967.
He has sent this letter to the Honourable Deputy Prime Minister and he has sent it to me, as well as two other Opposition Me·mbers of Parliament; and I read : "Tun Abdul Razak, Deputy Prime Minister, c/o Parliament House, Kuala Lumpur.

Dear Sir, Re: Red Tape and inefficiency Please spare a fewofyourpreciousminutes as I recount to you the red-tape and ineffi ciency in the Income Tax Department, the evils or ills of which you have so admirably fought against, hence my letter to you.
I called at the Office of the Income Tax Department on the 9th October, 1967, and was queried on the tax on my 1966 assess ment.

There was an error made on my assessment wbiCh was later acknowledged in the letter dated 30th October, 1967, which stated that the credit due to me would be refunded and I would bear from the Senior Assistant Comptroller, Collec tions Branch shortly-'the operative word here is shortly.'

I do not know the meaning of the word 'shortly' as used by the Depart ment.
All I know is that 13 days have passed and no news is forthcoming yet.

On 6th October, 1967, however, knowing full well this evil of red tape, I called at the Collections Branch of the Department and asked when I would hear news again from them.

I was told by a lady in charge of it, that voucher and application form with others would be forwarded one shot on Friday, 10th November, 1967, to the Accountant-General's Office.

To check and verify that this has been done, I called at the office this morning.
I saw Mr Leong, who is in charge of the checking section o~ the Accountant-General~s Office.

and he kmdly searched through the files and found no forms, no vouchers were forwarded to him on Friday, 10th November.

Seeing no trace of this, I immediately went up to the Collections Branch of the Income Tax Department.

There this matter and was told that it had to go through a labyrinth of Departments and it takes time?

How long?

Within three weeks, if all goes well.


The receipts issued by the Department are not acceptable enough as proof of payment by me, hence the refund cannot be made, so they say.

This is highly ridiculous, this is tantamount to rejecting your own signature.

I must emphasize here that it is not the amount of money that matters, but the sluggish way people, public servants.

whose service should be to the public, go about doing things that get the public edgy and on their nerves.
I have heard you say many a time to Government servants to cut down red tape and inefficien cy so as to speed up work.

This is good.

Let them put it into practice.

Thank you very much for your time.

I queried on Yours faithfully, (Sd.)

HWANG SIEW HOCK.''
HWANG SIEW HOCK.''

Now, if the Honourable the Assistant Minister of Finance wishes to have a look at this letter so as to check on its authenticity, I will be very glad to pass it on to him, so that I hope he will get some measure of efficiency from the Income Tax Department.

And, incidentally.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am the last of the Mohicans on this side of the benches.

People are so disillusioned that they are all gone 3159 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3160 ~ home (Laughter).
Mr Speaker, Sir, if what I have read out is any criterion of the efficiency and of the kindness of the Income Tax Department, then what one should do is to try and cut down on their power, and not try and "makin lama makin bertambah lagi Pen kekuasaan dapatan".
Pejabat Chukai currently Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Sarawak has already touched on Clause 4 which seeks to amend Section 7 (1) (c) of the Income Tax Act, and he has pointed out to the Assistant Minister for Finance how students studying abroad can be affected by this Bill.

Now, I wish to present a different angle of the hardship that can occur as a result of this amendment.

that it The Bill says very clearly should be 91 days before one is the considered as a resident.
Now, Government in its wisdom seeks to re duce it to 30 days, so as to define a per son as a resident.

Now, we do know that artists, whether it be from Japan, or Taiwan, or Hongkong, or those who are the Mandarin Hotel--a pair from Spain dancing the "Flemingo", come here and they obviously flit from Kuala Lumpur to lpoh, lpoh to Penang and sometimes they do stay longer than 30 days.

Under this amendment, they will be taxed as a resident when in effect they are not residents of this country.
I submit that if we are to encourage tourism in this country, and you can only encourage tourism in this country if you can have high-class artistes in your high-class hotels, then you are discouraging high-class artistes from coming to this country because the pay packet that they get from the hotel, from the Federal Hotel, for example in this instance, very soon most of it goes into the coffers of the Income Tax Department.
performing at Sir, I now come to Clause 31, which to amend section 80 of the seeks Income Tax Act.

Here under Section 80 of the Comptroller-General of Income Tax is limited to only removing books.

Now, he can not only remove books Income Tax Act, the but he can also remove documents, whatever that may mean, which means he can remove the whole office of its materials or from the house.
I do not see the necessity for it, but perhaps the Government may well accuse me, "Here is a devil's advocate for the tax evaders; why should he grumble if he has a good conscience; he should not worr~ about that because we need the documents".

If this was necessary, why was it not thought of then?
It means that the original Income Tax Bill, as I maintained then, was a hastily cooked up one borrowing from Australia, from India, the United Kingdom, patched up together and rushed to this House without much thought.

from Special Clause 68, as far as I am concerned, is the only redeeming feature in this Bill, because here the Minister of Finance has taken heed of what I said the debate on August 24th during regarding Commissioners.
Members of this House will recollect that on that occasion the original Bill said that there should be two Special Commissioners and they sit on your case.

If one of them says, "You are guilty", the other says, "You are not guilty", you had it.

The laws says you are guilty-"heads" the Income Tax Department wins, and "tails" the tax payer loses.

In any case, the Income Tax Department wins.


Here, under this the amendment, we are Special Commissioners have been increased three and, two fortunately, insha Allah, now we have a majority opinion instead of out of the two and one of them says, "You are guilty", and the other says, "You are not guilty", you are guilty.

Now, taken in conjunction with Clause 62-1 (3), I submit that the increase of Special Commissioners to three is nullified by Schedule 5.
Remembering that there are only three Commissioners, Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to read Clause 62-1 (3): from that told to "If, when an appeal is heard, no Chairman of the Special Commissioners has been appointed or the Chairman is absent, the Special Commissioners present shall choose one of their number (who shall be a person with experience of the kind mentioned in sub-paragraph (1)) to preside at the hearing".
3161 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3162 requested by In simple words, it means this : you have a set up of three Special Commis sioners and if one of them, let us say, the Chairman, or any one of them is absent, two chaps sit in hearing of an appeal case.

If that is so, where is this question of majority opinion, because if two chaps sit, one says, "Let this chap go", the other says, "No, he should pay as the Comptroller-General", what then will happen?
This is a conundrum that I think the drafters of this amendment have not thought of.

They have thought of the illness of one of the Commis sioners and say that if one of them is ill, the proceedings cannot be nullified.

They have not thought of, that of out of the three, one falls ill, or is unable to be present, and two sit in judgment and they do not agree among them selves, what is going to happen.
This is a thing that is very important to the taxpayers, because I think if there are three and by a majority vote the people decide against their case, there he will accept the decision; but if he knows that there are two people sitting on his case and one of them says that he should be let off and the other says that he should not be let off, and if it means that he loses his case, then we are back where we were before.
Consequently, I suggest to the Honour able Assistant Minister of Finance that he this provision of Spedal Commissioners.

A fairer number would be either four or five, because then you will obviate the necessity that there is less chance of only two people sitting in judgement; and out of two people, as I pointed out before, one says, "Yes" and one says, "No", how are you going to arrive at a decision?
I do hope in this case under the set up of three Special Commissioners, the taxpayer will be back where he was before, but if there are four or five Special Commissioners, theh he has a chance of a fairer hearing from the Special Commissioners.

re-think on should Sir, Gause 46 amends Section 103 of the Income Tax Act.

As I pointed out to this House before, the introduc tion says, "Well, you know, there is nothing to worry, these are all tidying up of legal matters, you have nothing to worry about".
But Clause 46 is a very serious thing.

It increases five fold for the punishment provided under Section 113 of the Income Tax Act.

I do not see why, even before the Act is put into practice, those respon five-fold sible now should seek a increase in penalty on the taxpayer.

Has it been found that the taxpayer been so recalcitrant that he should now be five-fold inflicted with a increase?

The Act is not in operation yet, and yet the Government seeks to have this five-fold increase.
if The other thing, of course, is Clause 47, which amends section 116 (e) of the Income Tax Act.

When we debated the Income Tax Bill on August 24.

1967, I pointed out that under the Bill the poor citizens of this country have no redress, unlike the Americans, who are perhaps more freedom-loving than we are-they have no "fifth amendment."
We all know that in America you can claim the fifth amend ment and refuse to talk; and we all know that in America that under a decision of Supreme Court, the Police, or any Government official ex tracts, not necessarily a confession, but evidence from you, in the absence of his lawyer, that is not admissible evi dence in Court.
But, here, the Tax Collector knocks at the door at 1.00 a.m., you have got to open the door despite the assurance that the Minister of Finance has given us, you have got to open the door; he says, "I want to talk to you"; you know, you got up from a dream all of your own, and he says, "I want to talk to you; what have you done here; what have you done there?"

You are befuddled, you do not know how talk, you will not talk, and that is an offence.

Under the Income Tax Act, the penalty there is in $1,000.
Now, its wisdom, it two-fold; it says, "It is not $1,000, it is $2,000 now."

Not satisfied with the Government its pound of flesh, introduces yet another penalty-it says.

"It is $2,000 now, it is also one year's imprisonment, or both."

This is like Shylock demanding his pound of flesh.
You say to a person who may not even the Government, increase seeks to to 3163 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3164 the Income Tax understand what gatherers talk to him about-one is English-speaking or Malay, let us say, and the other is Hakka and he does not know a word of Malay, does not know a word of English, and they communicate with each other by hand signs-"You are, under the law, com mitting an offence which, if proved in a Court of law, says it is $2,000 or one year imprisonment or both-$2,000 plus one year imprisonment."
Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the letter that I have given to the Assistant Minister of Finance, I should say; tha~ o:ne should decrease rather than increase the pow ers of the tax gatherers of this country, and I shudder to think of the tax collec tors knocking at the door of all law abiding citizens and saying, "How about telling us or else.

.

.

; you know, it is very clear in the Income Tax Act, section such and such, you are liable to $1,000 or $2,000 fine or one year im prisonment or both.
You go to prison for one year, you also pay "$2,000."

Under law abiding citizen just coughs out what is wanted by the tax gatherer.

I gather that in the United Kingdom there was a recent case of Harze versus the In land Revenue, there such a contingency did arise, where the tax gatherer went to the house, he knocked at the door and Harze said, "I do not want to talk to you",-the Englishman's house is his lord of my am manor; I refuse to talk to you despite what is in the law."
The case was brought to Court.

The judge, in his wisdom, threw the case out.

Now, I do hope that if this were tested in a Court of law, despite what is specifically written, the judge, who tries such a case, would take into consideration so many factors and that privacy is a thing that we all cherish and no one want to be bulldozed or frightened into saying things that one does not want to say.

the circumstances, castle-"!

the Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, Clause 56 seeks to amend section 148.
Clause 56 here says that section 148 is amended by adding the following sub-paragraph: "(iii) power to give any such approval or direction subject to such conditions as the Minister or the Comptroller- General, as the case may be, may think fit to impose,".

I do hope that the Assistant Minister of Finance will try and elucidate this for me, because I do not see the necessity for this amendment.
Finally, Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to state that in one instance, at least, the Ministry of Finance has broken faith with me.

Mr Speaker, Sir, you will re member that when we debated the Bill, the Minister of Finance stood up and said, "Well, I have seen these amend ments by the Member for Batu.

I see merit in some of them.

But, you know, if he will allow me, I will consider them.

"-and he left it at that-"but if he wants to move these amendments then I have no opinion but to reject all of 1!hem."
(And you will remember, Mr Speaker, Sir, I stood up and said, "It is his pleasure and will to reject my amendments.

It is my right to move all the amendments in this House."

And in the course of the debate, you will re member, Mr Speaker, Sir, he did accept a number of my amendments.

The spirit of the Lord, shall we say, entered into the Minister of Finance, and he compromised on many amend ments that I moved forth.

Now, among the amendments that I moved forth was this rebate in tax for mature students.
Now, the Minister of Finance at that time stated that he saw merit in my case.

He did say, "Well, you know, this is unheard of, found nowhere in any type of legislation."

And I did reply that, "if I were to conform to the nor mal form, if I were an orthodox person, then, perhaps, I should not be in this House."

I have always been a rebel and most certainly no respecter of persons.

He did say that he would consider it.


Unfortunately, Mr Speaker, Sir, when I looked at this Bill on Monday, I looked up and down, inside out, for this amendment to incorporate what I said about mature students, but unfor tunately it is not in.

Now, I am told that it is a very difficult piece of legislation, it is not found anywhere, so you can not copy from some other places, that it is so full of loopholes.
I submit that, if the Minister had stated then that there was merit in my proposal then it is not beyond the capacity of the Legal 3165 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3166 it think Draftsman to put it into legal form.

I do not is beyond the capacity, and I submit that he should do it.

If he cannot do it, then I will get some of my back-rooms boys to work on this and I shall, if the Assistant Minister of Finance still sees merit in my proposal, send forth a complete amendment on this matter.
I submit that the people who are involved are not that many, provided we draft the legislation very carefully.

You can limit it to practically not more than even a dozen of people who can benefit from such an amendment.
And I submit to the Assistant Minister of Finance that he should be prepared to accept any amendment on this matter should I send it to him at a later stage for in· clusion with, perhaps, some other amendments that he possibly will have to bring to this House in the Budget session of this; House.

Tuan Geh Chong Keat (Penang Utara) (dengan izin): Mr Speaker, Sir.
I would like to record an appreciation for the action that the Minister of Fi nance had taken by going out to meet the people, especially the businessmen in the various States, before he effected these amendments and the Explanatory Statement down here which states : "to effect amendments which appear the result of representations desirable as which have been made since the principal Act was passed.

The opportunitf is taken to include other amendments of less importance."
Now, this explanation speaks for itself in that the Minister has deviated from the normal procedure taken by him in previous years.

In previous years, when we talked of Income Tax, I can vividly remember it, the Minister of Finance had been accused of legislating laws from his ivory castle in Kuala Lumpur.
But time has changed and the Minister of Finance too has changed, and I am very glad that he has changed for the better and he has learned to under stand the lower income group-and he has actually reached the bottom rung of the businessmen and people of this country.

Sir, however, I would like to recall the promise of the Minister of Finance in this House.
In this House, last August, I made a request to the Honourable Minister of Finance to have the forms printed in various languages understood by the taxpayers.

We were also informed that it would cost the Government some· where around $36 just to tax a person whether he is taxable or not, but that is the average sum.

However, I feel that it would not cost the Government more by printing these forms in order to make these people understand.
I would again appeal to the Minister, if he had any problem, to use in any legislation, or official documents, or communica tions, the language of any other commu· nity in the Federation for such purposes as may be deemed necessary in the public interest.
This apparently, Mr Speaker, Sir, is very important because of the drop in the price of rubber, and as our national income has dropped, we want to see that the citizens and residents of Malaysia help to bear the this country, financial problems of where they are due and where they have reaped sufficient fruits from the soil to pay this tax.

especially businessmen, In this respect, Sir.

I would like to point out the problems facing the tax payers important today.

The most thing is.
The most thing is.

as I see it, the filling of forms.

If they were assisted by having the forms in the various languages that could be understood by the taxpayers, the preliminary problems would be eased.

Otherwise.

it would cost them approximately $30 to have one form filled and the Government could have very well earned this $30.
The ordinary small the shopkeepers, stallholders, petty traders, sekolah taxis and the hawkers, other than paying the Government income tax, have to pay for registration and also licence fee which amounts to $25, and for local authority stall licensing they have got to pay for the space they use and other miscellaneous payments.

Sir, in this respect, most of them did their best to submit their return forms.
They even try to get friends of theirs who could just fill in the forms without knowing the results of the consequen ces of giving the wrong returns, or just giving approximate returns.

Since the Government has been insisting on as true as possible returns, it would be of great help to them to have these 3167 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3168 instructions licence.

Otherwise, in multi forms with languages to assist them.
However, there is one point which I would like to appeal to the Minister of Finance, through the Assistant Minister, to con sider.

The point is that businessmen, especially the hawkers, have to apply for a licence to trade.
Now~ due to some misunderstanding, the law enforcement officers from the Ministry of Com merce and Industry go around the various market sites and places where you find these small traders and insist that they should take out business registration licences-even a kachang puteh man has to take out a business registration the law would be set upon them, and I understand that even policemen have been going around market places checking on this matter of business registration.
Now, once this business registration has been complied with, then the income tax boys will step in.

Even the kachang puteh man and the fishmongers and the vegetable seller, earning an income not exceeding $2 a day, will have to submit income tax return forms.

Sir, most of these people have been assumed by these income tax boys or officers to have derived maximum income.
But we must also bear in mind that they have incurred maximum expenditure, but apparently insufficient to maintain the minimum demand of even feeding a simple family.

However, the problem starts to accumulate when the officers from the Income Tax Department starts to issue notices of assessment.

They are not satisfied with the amount indicated in the return forms and they start to re assess.

Many embarrassing questions are asked.


If a hawker shows an in come of approximately $100 a month, the officer would like to know how he managed to feed his seven or five children, and the maintenance of the five or seven children had been used as a basis of calculation to re-assess a hawker or a small countryside coffee shopkeeper or a small bicycle repairer.
Sir, I would like to appeal to the Minister of Finance, through the Assis tant Minister, as he had reached the people and he had heard and under stood their representations, and he had expressed his sympathy with them, to go further into it.

I know and I am sure most of the hawkers and the small petty traders have indicated their implicit confidence in the Minister of Finance, since he had stated that he understood their plight and problems.
Now, in this manner, I would like to appeal to the Minister of Finance to increase the ceiling of the minimum exemption from the development tax from $500 to $3,600 deductable from the amount of their return of these small shopkeepers, stallholders, petty taxi operators and traders, sekolah hawkers.

Thank you, Sir.
Thank you, Sir.

Dr Ng Kam Poh: Mr Speaker, Sir, when I was listening to the Honourable Member for Batu, I thought that I had been listening to somebody preaching in a cliurch and the like, or at a moral society, of gross violation of parliamen tary democracy and the disillusionment of Honourable Members of the Opposi tion that they have all gone away.
The real truth of the matter, Sir, is that very few people understand laws par taining to income tax, given even two weeks, three weeks or four weeks for them to read them.

I. myself, will have to have experts to explain to me.

I will be honest with you.

This is the real fact.

But, then he says, "This is a gross violation of Parliamentary democracy; you have not been given enough time; the poor Honourable Member for Tanjong has returned; his two motions have not been debated".
We spoke to him just now, and he says "All right if you want to have a debate the next time, fair enough."

You know, he has got a better chance.

This time we do not debate his motion, but he has asked oral questions and he got publicity.

The next time, we debate his motion, he will have more publicity.

What else does he want?

Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Press should take note of what I .say against the Honourable Member for Batu as he has asked the Press to take note.
I think it is not very fair of him, really.

I mean, he casti gated the Government in no uncertain terms, as if we are a pack of evil people around here.

Tuan C. V. Devan Nair (Bungsar): On a point of explanation, if I may.

3169 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3170 I think i~ is rather unfair on the Mem ber for Tanjong to make remarks about him when he is not here.

Who knows for a fact that the Honourable Member for Tanjong did not say, "Well, have it your way"?
If he wan ted his way, Sir, he would have said, "I want the debate on my motions to take place."

Mr Speaker: May I be informed what is the subject about?

Tuan C. V. Devan Nair: Well, I think you ought to ask the Honour able Assistant Minister of Finance to enlighten you, Sir, because he referred to the Honourable Member for Tan jong, and so on.

Dr- Ng Kam Poh: Sir, I cannot understand what he is talking about.

I think he must have had late nights these few days.
These debates these the few days might haV!e affected Honourable Member for Bungsar's mentality.

I did not even complain about the Honourable Member for Tanjong.

I have just mentioned him in passing as the Honourable Member for Batu has done so.

He has made out that the Minister of Finance is an orge, a horrible person, a very evil and wicked person, he has a heart of stone and all that sort of things.

He is not such a bad person.

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Opinions vary!


Dr Ng Kam Poh: Opinions vary, I agree with you.

After all, the Labour Party people go out demonstrating in the streets, lying to the people.

We do not do such irresponsible things.

He knows that.

Mr Speaker, Sir, he says that we do these things in a hurry, since this should be a consolidating Bill.

He pointed out an error in Clause 63.

Sir, this is a printer's error.

Actually sub paragraphs (a) to (cl) should read (a) to (c) and (e) should read (cl).
Sir, if you look at the Clause and look at the Explanatory Statement thereto, you can the adjustment there.

It is a find printer's error and he should not make so much capital out of it.

The Honour able Member for Batu is a fairly honest man, I think, and he should not make capital out of a printer's error.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Honour able Member for Batu is not very fair tonight-honestly.

comes category As for the increased penalty, he asks under.
it what Honestly, Mr Speaker, Sir, according to the Explanatory Statement the amend ments come under three categories: one is from representation, the second is from transitional provisions and the third is for amendments of less impor tance.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the penalty comes under the category of amend ments of less importance because it actually is a minor amendment.

He says that we have raised the penalty from $1,000 to $5,000.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we are giving a tax amnesty for so many months.
If nobody wants to come forth, we have to impose a heavier penalty.

If you can be honest with me, if you can be honest with my tax offi cials, we can have a tukar fikiran as he usually says, and then we tax you honestly.

But if you want to evade, then after this amnesty period, we will have to sit on you.

I am very sorry but to sit on you, we will still have whether you like it or not.
As to the question of the Special Commissioners which was brought out by him and also by the Honourable Member from Sarawak, Tuan Ong Kee Hui, if they would only take care to look at section 62 (a) (1), they will see that no court of appeal can sit unless there are three Special Commissioners.

Please have a look at it, and do not castigate the Government for something which is not intentional and say that the dice is loaded in our favour.
As for artistes and the like, Mr Speaker, $ir, public entertainers must have a history of residence in this country.

One must be resident in this country for at least three to four years, in which case then he is a resident for more than thirty days before he can be treated as a resident of Malaysia for that basis year.

If he has been resident for more than three years, this Clause does not apply.

So, I do not see why he should be worried about these special entertainers.
If he like Singapore, he wants, perhaps, might have an incentive Clause to 3171 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3172 reduce the income tax.

I cannot say so, but I say perhaps it might be, if there are certain amounts of representations made to the Minister of Finance to reduce the income tax from say 40% to 15 % as has been in Singapore, or may be here to 10%.

just to encourage tourists.


the case tax, that As for the section concerning the seizure of books and documents, he accused the Government of saying that we are going to take the whole office home.

Mr Speaker, Sir, you know very well the words "books" are defined in a court of law as books and documents.

Being certain documents for to evasion of pertaining example, these are the documents we cannot seize unless the word "docu is added to.
I am sure the ments" Honourable Member for Batu knows quite well what is intended, but he wants to twist a little bit to get a little bit of publicity from the Press, so that his party will grow a bit stronger.

But Mr Speaker, Sir, again, I say to the Honourable Member for Batu that today he has not been very, very fair.

Normally he is quite fair, but not today-I do not know why.

It may be so because, perhaps, I am here and the Minister of Finance is not here and so he tries to bully me.

(Laughter).
(Laughter).

On income the question of tax officers coming at night, Mr Speaker, Sir, why do we want to go around to the office at night when everything is closed and nobody lives in the office?

It is ridiculous.

Normally, we go in the day time, when the office is open, and the tax officers go to the office to tell them, "We have every right to go and seize your documents"-and that is it.
Why do we want to go to a person's house at night unless we think that he might be indulging in some form of smuggling or other; where tax avoidance is concerned, I do not think that applies particularly.

to As the question of mature students, Mr Speaker, Sir, he himself has admitted that there are very very few; further he made an allegation on the question of whether we are capable-or it is beyond our capacity- to draft legislation on this matter, and said that he is going to do it for us.
Mr Speaker, Sir, I thank him very much, but I think we are quite capable of drafting legislation on our own.

However, Sir, we are still considering the matter-the matter is still under consideration.

After all, as you know, it is applicable to a handful.

Do we need to amend something to serve just a handful?

As I said, we have to consider the matter further-it is not that we do not want to consider it.
We have agreed to consider it, but whether it will serve the purpose to put a section into this Bill itself to suit this handful is the question, Mr Speaker, Sir.

that sort of in regard As for the Honourable Member.from Sarawak Tuan Ong Kee Hui, most of the things he has spoken concerning the time and consideration given, and thing-and he all says.
"There is one particular point I would like to raise on Clause 4, to amendment of i.e., the child section 7, in which case educated outside Malaysia who has got properties in Malaysia and got earned income in Malaysia would not get the scaled rates and reliefs".

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to differ, because if you have a look at Clause 130 (1) (a) this applies.

In other words, the child who goes overseas and earns income here gets relief and scaled rates.
We are not as heartless as the Honourable Member from Sarawak makes us out to be.

As to the question of varying the rate of abatement and varying the rate of taxation, any variations is always subject to confirmation of this House is used after and power to vary consultation with the State Govern ment in accordance with the I.G.C.

Report.

We have not in any way gone out of the I.G.C.

Report, and we will consult the State Government, and we will do the same thing every time we come to this House.
In point of fact, I the principal Income Tax Act was introduced into this House-I used to read newspaper clippings from Sabah and Sarawak the editorials of these newspapers had remember, before 3173 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3174 almost gone berserk accusing us of not observing all sorts of things, implying that we are going to punish Sabah and Sarawak by increasing taxation.
After they had read through the principal Income Tax Act, 1967, then all the editorials of the news papers kept very quiet, as they realised that we had given them incentives, beyond which they never expected.

to such conditions as Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not think that I have anymore to say except, of course, on Clause 56 which the Honourable Member for Batu wants to know what it means.
Clause 56, in this sense, means "subject the to approval by · the Minister or the Comptroller-General as may be given, subject the Minister may think fit".

In other words, it means this: conditions are necessary, subject to the approval of the Minister or the Comptroller-General.

To give an example : when we approve institu tion of a public character, we need to impose conditions to ensure that the fund is properly managed, to safeguard revenue and the public as well.
This is the meaning of the redrafted Clause.

There is no evil intention whatsoever.

This, Mr Speaker, Sir, I hope, will be an adequate reply to the Honourable Members of the Opposition, and I hope by and large they would not again accuse the Honourable Minister of Finance of rushing this Bill through or pushing through with our vast majority, because I think it is a highly technical matter and it is difficult for people to understand.
it The Honourable Member for Penang Utara did bring up some relevant points about the question of registration fees for hawkers and the is a form of like.

Registration fee service which the Government gives to the public in general in the form of business registration, the reason being that should there be litigation in court, then one will have a copy of his business registration and he will know who is the sole proprietor or a partner thereof; therefore, this $25 paid is not a taxation but a service fee.
With regard the question of to kachang puteh sellers being taxed and all that, I do not think that is true because business registration is only confined to business premises, street stalls, and motorised itinerary vehicles, but not itinerary hawkers who carry their goods along with kandar sticks and who go around hawking.

I do not think they need business registration, Mr Speaker, Sir.
With regard to the question of the form being printed in four languages, I think that is also being considered, but I cannot give him the assurance that it might be so.

We are considering the National Language Act and we are still considering the question now as to whether it is to the public interest to print the form in four languages.
Again, Mr Speaker, Sir, the Honour able Member for Penang Utara would like to present to this House that the Income Tax officials are actually very, very dishonourable people, who chase after hawkers and question them like the C.I.D.

or .

.

.

.

.

Tuan Geh Chong Keat: I did not say that they are dishonourable people.

They are doing their work.

Perhaps the Auditor they are pushed by General.


to this assurance Dr Ng Kam Poh: Mr Speaker, Sir, I can give the Honourable Member for Penang Utara that if anyone, be he a hawker or a kachang puteh seller, be he a rich man or a poor man, and all that sort of thing, everyone of them, if he is an honest taxpayer he need not fear the officials the Department of Inland Revenue.

Thank you very much, Sir.

from Usul di-kemukakan, dan di-setuju kan.


Rang Undang2 di-bachakan kali yang kedua dan di-serahkan kapada Dewan sa-bagai Jawatan-kuasa.

Dewan bersidang sa-bagai Jawatan kuasa.

3175 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3176 Rang Undang2 di-timbangkan dalam Jawatan-kuasa.

(Tuan Speaker mempengerusikan meshuarat Jawatan-kuasa) Fasal 1 hingga 4 di-perentahkan menjadi sa-bahagian daripada Rang Undang2.
Fasal 5- Dr Ng Kam Poh: Mr Chairman, Sir, I beg to move an amendment which reads as follows : "Substitute 'five' for 'give' in para graph (a)".

Pindaan di-kemukakan, dan di setujukan.

Fasal, 5, saperti yang telah di-pirula, sa-bahagian di-perentahkan menjadi daripada Rang Undang2.

Fasal 6 hingga 16 di-perentahkan menjadi sa-bahagian daripada Rang Undang2.
Fasal 17- Dr Ng Kam Poh: Mr Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that Clause 17 be amended as follows : "Insert 'a' before 'step-child' where in the second time it occurs for paragraph (c)".

Pindaan di-kemukakan, dan di setujukan.

Fasal 17, saperti yang telah di-pirula, di-perentahkan menjadi sa-bahagian daripada Rang Undang2.

Fasal 18 hingga 63 di-perentahkan menjadi sa-bahagian daripada Rang Undang2.

Fasal, 64- Dr Ng Kam Poh: Mr Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that Clause 64 be amended as follows : 1.
To paragraph 35 add the following sub paragraph- "(3) To such extent as may be necessary for the proper application of this Act in relation to the year of assessment 1968, sub-paragraph (1) shall have effect as if any references therein to 1st January, 1968, and 31st December, 1967, were references to 28th September, 1967, and 27th Sep tember, 1967, respectively."

2.
Add to paragraph 68 the following sub paragraph- "(6) In the application of sub paragraph (3) or (4) to the trustees of a trust or the executors of a deceased person, the references therein to old tax paid for any year of assessment as therein mentioned shall be taken to be references to so much of the old tax paid for that year as bears the same proportion to that old tax as the aggregate of the statutory income for that year of the trustees or executors (reduced by so much thereof as falls to be treated as the statutory income for that year of a beneficiary or beneficiaries of the trust or the estate, as the case may be) bears to the aggregate of the statutory income for that year of the trustees or executors", and disregard so much of the previously circulated Corrigenda notice as pur ported to re-number an existing sub paragraph (5) as sub-paragraph (6).
3.

After "source" where it first occurs in the proviso to paragraph 70 of the proposed Schedule 9 in~rt "(being a source the income from which is wholly or partly derived from Malaysia)".

4.

(1) In the proviso to paragraph 72 (1), 88 (1) and 109 (1) substitute "any of" for "all" before "the assets".
(2) In paragraph 72 (2), 88 (2) and 109 (2) delete "shares in the company at the date of its dissolution" and sub stitute "as beneficial owners the ordinary share capital of the company at the date of its dissolution ("ordinary share capital") here having the same meaning as in the definition of "director" in section 2 (1)".
(3) Add the following sub-paragraph to paragraphs 72, 88 and 109-"(3) In a case where there are two or more transfers to which the proviso to sub paragraph (1) applies, sub-paragraph (2) shall be applied by making such an the Sabah credit apportionment of among the transferees, and such further or other apportionments among any subsequent transferees as the Comp troller-General considers to be reason ably necessary in order to give proper effect the circumstances.".

to sub-paragraph (2) in 5.


To paragraphs 74, 90 and 11 l add the following words "or on their satisfying the Comptroller-General that the trust has not been terminated (or, as the case may be, the residue ascertained) before 1st January, 1988".

6.

To paragraphs 78, 94 and 116 add the following words "and the proviso to paragraph 70 shall apply in relation to that wife as well as in relation to himself".

3177 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3178 7.


(1) In paragraph 85 substitute "salaries tax" for "old tax'' wherever it occurs.

(2) (2) In paragraph 85 (3) substitute "profits tax" for "old tax" wherever it occurs.
(3) Insert the following in paragraph 85 as sub-paragraph (5)- "(5) In that year as bears the application of sub paragraph (3) to the trustees of a trust, the reference therein to profits tax paid for the year of assessment 1967, shall be taken to be a reference to so much of that profits tax paid the same for proportion to that profits tax as the assessable profits for that year of the trustees (reduced by so 'much thereof as falls to be treated as assessable profits for that year of a beneficiary or beneficiaries of the trust) bears to the aggregate of the assessable profits for that year of the trustees.".
(4) Re-number sub-paragraph (5) as sub-paragraph (6).

8.

After "source" where it first occurs in the provisos to paragraphs 86 and 107 of the proposed Schedule 9 delete "of income" and insert "(being a source the income from which is wholly or partly derived from Malaysia)".

9.

(1) Re-number sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 103 as sub-paragraph (3).
(2) Insert the following in paragraph 103 as sub-paragraph (2)- "(2) In the application of sub paragraph (1) to the trustees of a trust, the reference therein to old tax paid for the year of assessment 1967, shall be taken to be a reference to so much of that old tax paid for that year as bears the same proportion to that old tax as the aggregate of the statutory income of the trustees from all sources for that year (reduced by so much thereof as falls to be treated as statutory income for that year of a beneficiary or beneficiaries of the trust) bears to the aggregate of the statutory income of the trustees for that year.".
10.

(1) Delete "by him" in paragraph 105 (1) (a).

(2) Substitute "having regard" for "have regard" in paragraph 105 (1) (b).

11.
11.

Add to paragraph 106 the following words- "and, where an old source was acquired by more than one person or two or more old sources were acquired by different persons, that credit shall be apportioned between the acquirers in such proportion as the having regard to the circumstances considers just and reasonable and shall be payable to each of them on the Comptroller-General relevant date in relation to each of them as if that apportioned amount was a West Malaysia credit ascer tained as regards him.".
Pindaan di-kemukakan, dan di-setu jukan.

Fasal 64, saperti yang telah pinda sa-bahagian di-perentahkan menjadi daripada Rang Undang2• Rang Undang2 di-laporkan dengan pindaan2 : di-bachakan kali yang ketiga dan di-luluskan.

ADJOURNMENT (Motion) Dato' Haji Abdul-Rahman bin Ya'kub: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Tuan Ibrahim bin Abdul Rahman: Sir, I beg to second the motion.
ADJOURNMENT SPEECHES AGRICULTURE- DIVERSIFICATION OF CROPS Dato' Ling Deng Siew (Sarawak): Mr Speaker, Sir, at the moment the price of rubber which is the main export from Malaya and Sarawak has fallen to its lowest for 18 years.

It seems that its future prospect is not too optimistic though it is not hopeless.

Under such circumstances it is thought that the Government's policy towards rubber planting and replanting schemes should be modified.
As oil palm and padi have bright prospects in the future, it is therefore worthwhile for the Govern ment to concentrate more on the culti vation of these two crops.

I understand that in West Malaysia oil palm is plant ed extensively and this industry will be expanded year after year.

In Sarawak, it has been proved that oil palm culti vation is successful.
I suggest that in order to encourage the oil palm indus try in Sarawak, the Government should formulate schemes similar to the Rub ber Planting Scheme "A", in which the Government will subsidise the planters, and the Rubber Planting Scheme "B", in which the Government will under take the initial planting and then allo cate the plantation in small economic 3179 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3180 plots to the poor genuine farmers at a later stage.
I learn that the land along the Miri Bintu Road is suitable for oil palm cultivation.

I would like to urge the Government to consider seriously to alienate land to both the small holders and estates to go into oil palm industry as soon as possible.

As the demand is greater than the supply, the price of rice has been increased all the time during the last few months.

The future prospect of this produce is good.

Our country is quite suitable for this crop.

Unfortunately, it was neglected in the past.


So, we have to import a huge quantity of this commodity every year.

In West Malaysia, the Government is doing self sufficiency in rice by 1970.

But, not enough is being contemplated in Sara wak during the current Five-Year Malaysia Plan.
It is gratifying to note that during the Prime Minister's last visit to Sarawak recently, after what he has seen of parts of Sarawak from the air, he conceived the idea that Sarawak should be turned into the granary of Malaysia and towards attaining this objective, he said he would personally see that every possible step is taken as speedily as possible both by the Cen tral and State Governments.
its utmost to attain The majority of the working people in Sarawak are engaged in farming and most of these farmers are padi planters.

Any plan to improve the me thod of padi cultivation and thereby increasing the farmers' income is to help the majority of the people in Sarawak to raise their standard of liv ing.
To speed up the Prime Minister's plan, it is urged that the Government should oocourage estates to go into padi cultivation on a large scale with mechanisation, as estates always play an the country's agricultural development.

Due to the efforts of the Alliance Government, Malaysia has now become the top pro ducer in rubber and tin in the world and will become the biggest producer in palm oil before long.
Though we do not hope to be the biggest producers in rice, if the Government tries hard enough we do not see any reason why Malaysia will not one day be able to produce enough rice for its own con- important role in sumption, with a surplus for export.

Who knows that the present low price of rubber is not a blessing in disguise?
Touching on agriculture in Sarawak and, in particular, the situation in the Third Division where several thousands of Dayaks are living in hunger, there have been very little news reaching the outside world because these people live in the interior.

This worsening situa tion is because of continuous rain for days which has damaged the crops very badly.

The Dayaks in the Third Division are.

today living on sago flour and the Dayaks cannot even get this commodity because they have no money to buy it.
I sincerely appeal to the Central Government to set up a State and Central Government Joint Committee to launch an immediate relief campaign to provide food for the several thousands of these Dayaks.

that Mr Speaker, Sir, I am told that the Honourable Minister of Agriculture has been to Formosa on many occa sions to see padi cultivation which is very advanced there, and to see other things.

What has he seen in Taiwan?

I do not actually know, but he must remember some of the nice things.
I, the Central therefore, hope Government will get some experts the planting of from Taiwan for large padi and other crops on a scale.

to depend a lot on Thailand for our rice and now on Communist China.

It is not a good thing when you have to depend on others for your very exis tence.

We must become self-sufficient and not depend on Thailand, Com munist China, United States, or Russia for our food.
God has blessed us with good soil, good people and good Government and therefore, there is no reason for us to fail in our mission.

the past, we used In Dato' Haji Abdul-Rahman bin Ya'kub: May I have your permission to reply in English?
Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not know what other things in Taiwan are referred to by the Honour able Member, but I agree that the sub stantive Minister of Agriculture has visited Taiwan and he has already said in this House that the farmers there 3181 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3182 are doing really very well.
Generally, Mr Speaker, Sir, the Government is in agreement with the suggestion of the Honourable Member from Sarawak, Dato' Ling Beng Siew, that agricultural diversification not only in Sarawak, but also throughout Malaysia, should be given high priority in our economic development programme.
As all of us are aware, the price of rubber recorded this year is the lowest since 1949. lf we are to sustain the country's rate of economic progress, we must diversify our agriculture as quickly as possible to strengthen and broaden the pace of our economy.

The Alliance Government has accep ted agricultural diversification as a major national economic policy.
Under the First Malaysia Plan, a sum of $131.4 million has been allocated to agriculture and rural development in Sarawak as compared with $46.5 million during the 1961 to 1965 period.

This represents an increase of almost 300 per cent.

The overall development allocation for Sarawak for 1966 to 1970 is expected to be $464 million compared with $254 million during 1961' to 1965.
Thes.e figures clearly show that the Alliance Central Government the is placing great emphasis on economic development of Sarawak with particular emphasis on agriculture.

To bring about agricultural diversification is no simple task.

It is necessary to find out what crops can be economically grown in the country, so as to provide higher standards of living and greater stability for the nation.
and sago The State Alliance Government has placed great emphasis in research to identify what new crops of economic importance can be grown besides rubber, pepper, copra.

Research efforts are time-consuming.

but it is now clear that oil palm culti vation is feasible and offers good pros pects and that both estates and small holders should be encouraged to culti vate these crops.

World prices of palm oil are very favourable today and are likely to remain so for some time in the future.
In the Fourth Division there is some un-alienated State land suitable for oil palm cultivation, and plans are already in hand for develop- ment once the timber is extracted; and I think the Honourable Member has a timber area in the Fourth Division, and -it is along the side of the Miri or rather the Bukanu and Miri Road that the scheme is going to be.

started.
started.

For the information of the Honour able Member, the Commonwealth Development Corporation will esta blish a large estate for oil palm cultiva tion in the Fourth Division somewhere in the Lambir area.

Approval has been given by the State Government to open a 600-acre smallholder oil palm pilot scheme in Danau in the Fifth Division.

Preliminary planning has been under taken, and the scheme is expected to commence in 1968.
Mr Speaker, Sir, other crops which offer excellent promise for expansion are cocoa and essential oils.

Sufficient work has been done by the Depart ment of Agriculture, Sarawak, on the feasibility of planting cocoa as an inter-crop with coconuts in coastal areas.

The State Government proposes to distribute free cocoa seedlings to smallholders.

A sum of $50,000 has been earmarked for this project next year.
Equipment has been purchased for the distillation of essential oils, and experimental areas have already been planted.

the group in Sarawak, assistance Sir, every effort is being made to improve the living standards of the rural population and increase the quan tity of foodstuff.

locally produced farming subsidy Under schemes is provided to farmers in two ways.
The first is the granting of subsidies in cash and kind up to $200, in order to encou rage good farming practices and diversification of enterprises within the farm.

By this method it is felt that farmers will be able to obtain maxi mum returns by crop cultivation and animal husbandry.

This scheme came into operation about two years ago and to cover off-season was extended cropping in padi sawahs in 1966.
The scheme will be particularly useful to augment the general living standards of new land development schemes.

The second is the provision of the form of planting assistance settlers on in 3183 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3184 materials and fertilisers up to a value of $75 per acre.

Mr Speaker, Sir, this aims at encouraging the planting of food and cash crops in wet padi areas during off-season periods.

sector.
sector.

The Alliance Government also agrees with the Honourable Member from Sarawak that the most efficacious and fastest way of raising rural pro ductivity and income in Sarawak is the introduction of mechanisation in the are agricultural than small generally more efficient holders by virtue of size and manage ment, and are therefore in a better position resources and increase production.
The Alliance Government, therefore, encourages the establishment of more estates, although we shall continue to give support to smallholders.

to exploit Estates about Rice is Malaysia's staple food and self-sufficiency is our target.

Swamp areas in Sarawak could be opened up wherever possible to expand the area under rice.
Increased yields will be seeds, by brought increased use of fertilisers, expanded irrigation facilities, control of pest and disease, mechanical cultivation practices, expanded extension services.

By turning unused land to cultivation, we hope to increase the well-being of the State and provide greater incomes to farmers.
better and As the Honourable Member from Sarawak might have heard a few days ago, in answer to a question by also an Honourable Member from Sarawak, the Government is carrying out four investigations into padi areas in Sara wak: one in the Fourth Division, one in the Fifth Division, and two other areas-I cannot remember in which Divisions.
On his return to Kuala Lumpur from his recent Sarawak visit, the Honourable the Prime Minister instructed me, as Acting Minister of Agriculture, to speed up the sending of two Japanese experts to Sarawak in this proposed padi connection with scheme in the Second and Third Divi sions.
A few days ago, I discussed with His Excellency the Japanese Ambassa dor, and we have reached agreement that during the next week or so, these two Japanese experts, who are here today, will be going to Sarawak to carry out feasibility survey.

It is hoped that they will complete the survey very soon and that we shall be able to know the position by early next year.

This goes to show the seriousness in which the matter was handled by the Honour able Prime Minister.
In fact, on his arrival at the Military Airprt, he got in touch with the Japanese Ambas sador immediately telephone without wasting his time at all, because he knew that Sarawak farmers needed urgent and immediate help.

by to point out Here, I wish that agricultural diversification is a very slow process and that there are serious constraints.

There is, firstly, the acute shortage of trained personnel.
Eco nomic development in Sarawak will also require investments in communi cations, including major secondary and minor roads.

Under the First Malaysia Plan, larger development expenditure allocations have been made to Sarawak for communications, utilities and trans port.

The Alliance Government will always endeavour to look after the economic welfare of the people of Sarawak, especially the farmers, so as to ensure that their standards of living will be kept abreast with the other States in West Malaysia.
The Honourable Member has also suggested that the Central Government should set up a committee, some sort of a relief committee, to help to alle viate the sufferings of the Dayaks in the Third Division, who are now having difficulties because of the rainy that the season in Sarawak.

I feel matter will have to be considered.

I cannot give an undertaking off-hand.

I will have to discuss the matter with the officials concerned.

Be that as it may, I feel that it is not necessary to start a relief committee.
If the suffer ings need urgent attention, both the State Departments of Agriculture and also Federal Ministries can tackle the job as quickly as possible.

However, as I said just now, I will discuss this question tomorrow with the officials of the Ministry of Agriculture, and I will communicate the outcome of the dis cussion to the Honourable Member.
Thank you, 3185 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3186 ESTABLISHMENT OF INDUSTRIAL ARBITRATION COURTS Tuan C. v. Devan Nair (Bunpar): Mr Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I would like to speak in English.
One of the major reasons for setting up industrial arbitration courts in those countries, which have them like India, Australia and Singapore, was the recognition of the special nature of the processes for the settlement of industrial disputes and the need to lift industrial disputes out of the arena of common law courts.

The procedure of industrial arbitration courts, wherever such courts have become successful social institutions, are therefore much more flexible than the procedures of the law courts.
Another cogent reason for the setting up of industrial courts is to secure the expeditious settlement of the causes which lead to industrial unrest and instabilities.

One of the pur ported intentions of our own Industrial Relations Act is to expedite settlement the industrial disputes and for of industrial courts to make its award without delay, and wherever practi cable within thirty days from the date of reference to it of a trade dispute.

This intention.
This intention.

a praiseworthy Unfortunately, certain glaring loop holes in the Act make it impossible of fulfilment.

is the ways Sir, one of transferred from industrial court and in which employers, in particular, are able to obstruct or subvert the cause of indus trial justice is to go over the head of the to have recourse instead to common law courts by filing writs of certiorari mandamus, or injunctions.
The moment industrial problems are the industrial court to the common law courts, the trade union side stands to lose heavily.

This in no way intended, of course, as a reflection on the common law courts, but the delay in such proceedings as well as the expenses incurred makes it practically certain that even an ultimate victory for the union in the common law courts can prove to be of no more than academic significance to the workers concerned.
is the Legislators in other countries, there fore, like India, Australia, and so on, have taken the necessary precaution and have provided built-in safeguards in their respective legislation to ensure that no decision of industrial courts can be challenged in any court of law in any way by way of writs of injunction, certiorari mandamus and the like.
More than this, their legisla tion also provides specifically that the jurisdiction of industrial courts in all matters which come within their com petence cannot be challenged in any court of common law.

It is precisely this builtin safeguard, which our own Industrial Relations Act has failed to provide, with the inevitable result that the efficacy of the court as a means for the dispensation of industrial jus tice in an expeditious manner is now in grave doubt in the minds of several trade unions.
This can do no good for the creation of that climate of confi dence in the processes of industrial justice, which is so vital if the indus trial laws of this nation are to earn the confidence and the respect of our workers.

It is only some three months since our Industrial Relations Act came into force, but within these three months, the dispute between the National Mining Workers' Union of Malaya and the Dolomite Industrial Co., Ltd. had shown up this obvious lacuna in our Industrial Relations Act.
In this case, the industrial court quite rightly ruled that it had jurisdiction to hear the case on union recognition and proceeded to do so, when the company challenged the court's jurisdiction and filed a writ in the High Court to this effect, thus restraining the industrial court from proceeding with the hearing.
The dis to the termination of pute relating employment between the same parties also suffered a similar fate, and the company again filed a writ seeking a stay of proceedings in the industrial court.

In the circumstances, Sir, the President of tiie Industrial Court had no option but to adjourn hearings of the two disputes indefinitely.
Both these writs seeking a stay of proceedings in the Industrial Court on the two dis putes have already been heard in the 3187 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3188 High Court, and the presiding Judge there has granted the application.
Hearing by the High Court on the question of jurisdiction of the Indus trial Court has been fixed for the 4th and 5th of December, 1967, but mean while the workers are on strike and have been on strike since June f3, and were illegally locked out from August 15, when the workers returned to work on the advice of the Commissioner for Industrial Relations.

This long drawn out affair is having disastrous effects on the striking workers of the Union.
The Union is spending on relief to the striking workers at the rate of $1,300 per week.

They have already spent nearly $30,000.

I must submit that this is an absolutely fantastic situation.

All the good intentions behind the Indus trial Relations Act have been subver ted by an employer, and the lacuna in the Act has rendered the Industrial Court impotent in the situation.
It must surely be obvious that, if every emplo yer with resources decides to challenge the Minister of Labour and the Indus trial Court and seeks a stay of pro ceedings in the High Court, the Indus trial Relations Act, both in the spirit and in its intention, must necessarily be brought into contempt and ridicule in the minds of workers and thus gravely prejudice the requirements of industrial justice and stability in the country.
I must appeal, Sir, for immediate action by the Honourable Minister of Labour to introduce amending legisla tion in this House which will make his own powers to refer disputes to the Industrial Court and the Industrial Court itself unchallengeable in the courts of common law if the course of industrial this country is not to be subverted.

Much obliged.
Much obliged.

those of justice in Tuan V. Manickavasagam: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya memohon izin tuan untok menjawab kapada uchapan Yang Berhormat Ahli daripada Bungsar tadi, dalam bahasa Inggeris.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Honourable Member has spoken of the dispute in the Dolomite regarding recognition and dismissal of workers.

Industries The facts in connection with this dis pute are briefly as follows.
After a claim for recognition was served on the employer some time earlier, the Union called a strike involving about 90 workers on 13th June this year, that is some two months before the Industrial Relations Act came into force.

Such a strike was permissible under the legis lation existing then but would not be so or necessary had the Industrial Relations Act been in force at that time.
I had indicated to the Union the nature of the provisions that were being incorporated in the Act and, in fact, advised them to await the provi sions of the Act, but the Union elec ted, for reasons of its own, to resort to strike instead of heeding my advice then.

After the Act came into force on 8th August, 1967, I referred the dis pute over Union recognition to the Industrial Court.
The Company how ever, took the stand that the workers, having broken their contract of service with the Company as a result of the strike, were no longer its employees and, therefore, the question of Union recognition no longer existed.

It conse quently applied to the High Court for the Industrial an Order prohibiting Court the from hearing of the dispute referred to it by me.

Subsequently, the question of re employment of the workers.
was also referred to the Industrial Court and the employers took a similar stand on the issue, too.

The Company obtained an interim Order of stay of proceedings on both these issues, pending disposal of the application for prohibition.

proceeding with From these facts, Sir, it will be evident that the Company did not make use of the provisions of the Act itself to stop the proceedings of the Indus trial Court but instead invoked and relied upon the law of contract.
Such a move by the Company would not have been possible had the Union heeded my earlier advice and refrained from taking strike action.

The delays and difficulties have arisen because of the hasty and ill-advised action on the part of the Union rather than as a result of any defect law.
it will be difficult and I think the in 3189 16 NOVEMBER 1967 3190 is right the Company far-fetched to expect ·me to provide for insurance against the haste and leaders who indiscretions of Union do not weigh the consequences of their actions.

In this case.

whether or not in its construction of the circumstances is not for me to say as the matter is before the High Court.

Any suggestion that there are loopholes in the law on this account can merely be a conjecture at this stage.
By this, Sir, I do not mean that I support the Company's attitude or its stand.

I think here we have an extremely difficult manage ment.

which refuses to recognise the changing times.

It is unfortunate that we have to allow the letter of the law to take its course.

but let me assure the House that I intend dealing with the Company when the legal tangles have been sorted out.

The Company will have to realise that it cannot escape its obligations.

the Sir.
the Sir.

the Honourable Member has suggested that amendments should be inserted to the Act to prevent any party from going to the High Court for prohibitions against Industrial Court.

I have.

in fact, replied to this in written replies to his questions in this sesssion.

We have here, Sir.

to consider the Constitutional rights of the parties and the due process of law.
While I would personally like to see the least amount of interference with the Industrial Court by non-industrial matters, my information is that such a preventive clause would be defective and invalid because of this.

I am, however.

Sir.

seeking further legal opinion on this matter.

Usul di-kemukakan dan di-setuju kan. Dewan di-tanggohkan hingga satu hari yang belum di-tetapkatt pada pukul 8.45 malam.