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S ECO MD l EC I SLATI VE COUNC I l (Constituted under the British Guiana (Constitution) (Temporary Provisions) Orders in Council, 1953 and 1956).

Wednesday, 11th January, 1961 The Council met at 2 p.m.

PRESENT: Speaker, His Honour Sir Donald Jackwn Chief Secretary, Hon.

D. M. Hedges Attorney-General, Hon.

A. M. I. Austin, Q.C.

Financial Secretary, Hon.

W. P. D'Andrade.


t ex officio The Honourable Dr. C. B. lagan -Member for Eastern Berbice ( Minister of Trade and Industry) "' " B. H. Benn " " Janet Jagan Ram Kana -l\llember for Essequibo River of Natural Resources) (Minister ----Member for We-stem Es.

equvho (Mmister of Labour, Health and Housmg) - Member for Demerara-Essequibo of Communications and (Minister Works) " B. S. Hai - Member fo-,r Cent,al.

Demerara (Minister of Community Development and Education) .
,- Mr. R. B. G jraj ,, W. O. R. Kendall ,, R. C. Tello ,_,.

F. Bowman ,, S. Campbell ,, A. L. Jackson ,, S.. M. Sa.ffee ,, A jodha Singh ,, Jai Narine Singh ,, R. E. Davis ,, A. M. Fredericks ,, H. J. M. Hubbard Mr.
I. Crum Ewing - Clerk of the Legislature Mr. E. V. Viapree - Assistant -Nominated Member -Member for New Amsterdam -Nominaied Member -Member for Demerara River �Member for North Western -Member for Georgetown North -Member for Western Berbice -Member for Berbice River -Member for Georgetown South - Nominated - Nominated - Nominated Member Member Member.

Clerk of the Legislature.

District ABSENT: Mr. L. F. S. Burnham, Mr. E. B. Bebarry - Member for Eastern Mr. A. G. Tasker, Q.C.-Member O.B.E.

- on leave.
- on leave.

for Georgetown Demerara Central The Clerk read prayers, 761 C hri\·tian Catholic 11TH JANUARY, 1961 Church (Inc.) Bill 762 MINFTES The Minutes of the meeting of the Council held on Friday: 6th January, 196 J. as printed and circubted.

wen· taken as read and confirmed.

l JCTION OF BILL INTROD Tiu� Miai\t�!,r of �atural Resources (Mr. Benn) : I beg to give not ice r,f the­ introduction and First Reading of the Drainage and lrrigation ( Declaration of Area) HiH.

1961.
1961.

ORDEl{ OF THE DAY BlLL----i'lRST READING The following Bill w.1.

::; read the Jirst 1 igw: A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to provide for the declaration of the Cane Grove Drainage and irrigation area, the vesting of certain lands and works in the Drainage and Irrigation Board and for purpose:s the matter-; aforesaid.

,.
,.

connected \\ith CHIUSTlAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (INCORPORATION) BILI; Mr. Davis: i beg to move the Second Reading of the Bill intitukd: "An Ordinance to r.::oeal and re-enact the Christian Catholic church i Incorpor­ ation) Ordinaoce.

,.

This Christian organization has be� tween 2,500 and 3,000 followers scattered all over the Colony, and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is doing excellent work.

There are about six ministers: several catechists; seven church building::.
and three dav schools, Government aided :,:;chocls.

whic"'h are to he found ,lt Bartica, in Essequibo and at No.

36, Corentyne.

There are- also about 22 preaching stations.

Under Chapter 226 the Superintend­ ent of the Christian Catholic Church in British Guiana and his successors in office are constituted a body corporate.

This Bill seeks to repeal Chapter 226. and, in place of the body thereby incorporated.

tn incorporate the General Overseer oi the Church in the United States of America.
the Superintendent and the Field Super­ visor of the Church in British Guiana and one other person appointed locally, under lih'.

name of the Board of Trustees of the Christian Catholic Church in British Gui­ ana.

I commend the BilJ to the Council.

!\tr.

GaJraj: I have much pleasure in seconding the Motion.

I would like to say that.


when the parties concerned first wished to have a private Bill introduced into this Legislature, I was approached by the minister and some others, and I agreed to pilot the Bill through the Coun­ cil.

But at the time when the petition was to be read I was acting for · you, Mr. Speaker, therefore f am very grateful to my friend, the hon.

Nominated Member.

Mr. Davis, who agreed to substitute for me in this respect.
It wlll be recalled that Mr. Davis stressed that this is a Christian church.

J would like to remind the Council that I am a Muslim, yet I have every pleasure---­ indeed I consider it a privilege to be asso­ ciated.

with the introduction and the pass­ age of this measure.

l lay stress on thb because we have hea.rd in this Council not so Jong ago statements made by hon.

Members that there was fear that then:· would be a sort of religious war in this country.
I, personally, see no need for it---·­ absolutely none whatever.

For years we have been living together in arnitv and concord, and when i t is remembere;1 that true religion is what we all believe in, tha1 we should not let the various serfarian differences stand in the way of our being comradely and happy with each other and ca�rying on_ the L�rdts work properly, I thmk that 1f permitted to function as in the pas�, there is absolutely no fear of any such thmg happening in British Guiana.
As a matter of fact my own religion teaches tolerance, not only by man to man but also tolerance with otherf>' religion� 763 Education 11 TH JANUARY, 1961 (Amdt.)

Bill 764 and say that with Question put, and agreed to.

we must give assistance to all who believe views, and we go further tolerance operation it is that with a great amount of pleasure and, indeed, for the Second Reading privilege oi the Bill.

and co- in God.

So Bill read the Third time and pas ed.


I second the Motion EDUCATION (AMENDMENT) BILL Question put, and agreed to.

Mr. Speaker: resume Council will -on the Motion for the Second the debate Reading Bill: of the following Bill read a Second time.

A Bill intituled amend the Education "An Ordinance Ordinance."

to COUNCIL I COMMITTEE Council to consider resolved the Bill Clause by Clause.

into Committee itself Clause I .-Short title.


Mr. Davis: I move that "1961" be for "1960" in the title to the substituted Bill.

Agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, put and agreed to.

Clause 2.-Interpretation.

Mr. Davis: Mr. Chairman in the, third paragraph is spelt wrongly.

An extra "u" seemed to have crept into it.

the word "Executive" The last time w� the Second Read­ the ing o.f this Bill was being debated, hon.

Minister was Resource's of Natural addressing hi" address.

des.ires.
des.ires.

He may do so now if he so Council.

He did not complete Mr. Benn: Mr. Speaker, when we I quoted from "Enemy Forgotten" discussion I was trying to of political in the silly because had again brought of communism.

on this Bill on the last concluded to point out that occasion, the hon.
Members who were opposed this Bill, principally reasons, argument a book entitled to show that this is no new attitude; that even during the American economists, ing the South, attacked because they wanted to sur­ communism; and communism-no render to socialism private no free land and a lot of things.
We are hearing the new, so this is nothing ame things them, and we can bear hearing they were said to be in favour oi who were fighting property, and support­ no church, Civil War the because today; Question put, and agreed to.

lause 2 passed as amended.

Clauses 3 to l3 passed as printed.

Schedule passe,d as printed.

Council resumed.

Mr. Davitl: Mr. Speaker, report that the Bill has been in Committee and passed with Amend­ ments 1 and I move that it be read the Third time.
I beg to considered Mr. Gajraj: I beg to second the Motion.

very rapidly, out how the hon.

it would be good if I re­ minds of one or two which I had Perhaps, fresh hon.

Members' of the points, covered.

I pointed Member for Georgetown Central ch�mged his stand once again.

I should like, with your permission, the "inglorious" document-the Paper of October, 1953, when the Con­ Among the �n was suspended.

stituti few thmgs that were written in this White Paper, I �hould like to read what is true.
to quote from White had very the abolitionists 765 Education ] ]TH JANUARY, 1961 ( Amdt.)

Bill 766 Mr. Si)eaker: Wou.ld you please, if from the Official it difficult the page and para-­ Reporters vou do not mind, ii you are quoting ;ome document, quote graph, because hccn finding so as to have them incorporated Hansard.

After you have quotc.d.

you may pass the book over to the Official Reporters, plies to aU hon.

Members.

if you do not mind.


That ap­ in the have to get references Mr. Benn: 1 am quoting from Page 1 7: paragraph 36: l pointed out the difficulties I referred the cases �fahafr'·a at, Mahaica-the were merely political; and said that the reasons why it :;chools''.

that would cause: I mentioned of two schools C.M.


School and: I. think, the Belmont to the atti­ Scots School--and tude of the British Guiana Teachers' Asso­ ciation has changed perhaps, speaks--he these matters-he very recently, of the Teachers' Association.

on the White Paper presented dealt with the problem and said there reorganization.

of a meeting commenting this Council.


of dual control tii Education on when the l\linister will be some need for a would point out how, the Chairman and, "In an the Minis­ wa', said his intention from their present official hroadcasit, ter for Education to remove churches participation the country and to revise the curriculurn and textbooks of schools .. to giv e them Socialist the true Guianese outlook" in the educational and realistic: system of ... is more knowledgeable of Now.
this is what I end my quotation.

the hon.

Member, who was l\linister and was pursuing; Education, had said and this said and done.

i n passing, only doing this because into service by the Party which was then in office.

to have is what be is recorded I onlv mentioned this.

for those wh� say that he was he was pressed Then, I mentioned and read Jetter� from teachers and documents and parents in this who had been discriminated a.Q"ainst I men­ I believe system of dual control.
tioned fnez Moonasar, and I believe Gibbons; of Community tion wi11 tell the hon-Nominated �'!ember, about the case Mr. Tello, of Mr. Seecharran whom he mentioned.

the l�on.

Minister and Educa­ Mr. Asgar Ali, 1fiss Development more in detail of th(• the question of the Anglican I then mentioned headteachership St. Michael Christian misusing rnaint<.•nance of several at Johanna Cece1i,1: bodies have been for sometin-1e.

the µ:rants given to them for tlw School ni how the ::-:chool:;.
As Minister I had to deal with .it in certain ot for instance.

trained that this question in this Colony, wnen a teacner 1� sent problem causes.

to stay there to do their work.

One main pojnt that hon.

Members about is this question Bartica in getting of I would like to point out.

as I have been talking teachers.

!YO un.

another of dual control Education.


�Jreas There is difficulty te�ichers It has happened on more than one lo an uccas1011 that area where he docs not like to stay he makes every effort to apply to another Governing in <rnothf'r Body for a position job hi:-religion �-::-11coL c11:uH:ie, Tl1is has hn1>1Je.l(J scnool.

m another (Jll Hy in rela­ t•specia n:iore than one occasion, who have been teachers trained t10n to The difficultv is not at Bartica.
stationed merely due to the shorta�e teachers, to remain in certain have the bright lights Georgetown_ area;:; which <lo nnt of the City of but the unwi11ingness and get� a of "trained of teacher-.

: r pointed out ho,...-lhc hon.

�dem;i:·r Central did not discuss, ff;, Gcorgctnwn in this CounciL very carefully of the dual control the dctaiJs and how it would he nonsensical gest that a Committet:.· ed as an independent work out a new agreement for· settlinu r;, this whole problem of dual control.
.. which was describ­ should commission.

what were agreement.

to sug­ Then I came to a very important point, b the Hindus and Muslims ecause some people argued: build their own "Let Therefore, the Religious with them on more thall one occasion, it seems to me as though Bodies have collaborated iu 767 Education 11 TH JANUARY, 1961 (Arndt.)

Bill 768 order to get a transfer from a District where they do not want to stay.
On every both the Education occasion and the people in the areas have drawn these matters to the attention erning Body.

We are asked, "Why not of build more schools?"

of dual control building is not merely a question The .question schools.

Department of the Gov­ in various are tak­ countries by way of C.D.

& W. Grants does as well as Metropolitan ing money from the Colonies ways.

The money given back to the Colonies not amount to more than 6d per head in the Colonies.
cocoa, robbed the people-and money is made up.

Let not the hon.

Mem­ ber forget sober days.

what he has learnt · his more that is how the rubber, They took coffee, sugar, and tin from Malaya-they Central Service and, indeed, The purpose of this Bin is to ov.er­ come some or �u-r difficulties the Bill has not gone far enough to re­ move the whole cancer of dual control.

The hon.

Member for Georgetown there was need that, perhaps, suggested Commission.
That for a Teachers' is one of the main tirings to which the They want ChU1ich Bodies are objecting.

in tb...eir to have thei£ own teachers who does not they do not want anybody belong to their denomination to be ap­ or Deputy Head­ pointed as Headteacher setting Therefore in their .schools.

teacher would Commission up a Teachers' as this have run into the .same difficulty if the hon.

Bill is having today.

Perhaps, th�t he would not Member h.ad ;realized hav-e made such a .suggestion.
schools; Service !,notice that an hon-Member tabled C.D.

& W. Grants In other words, he regarding schools.

a question for building thinks C.D.

& W. Gr.ants are not Govern­ ment money and, therefore, allow Church Bodies to hold on to the and do as they like.

When the schools C.D.

& W. Grants were allocated there to indicate was nothing must build schools and give them to Religious we should Bodies.
that· Government but I religion; and that it is going Party wants to destroy I shall not be much lcmger, would like to refer to one point some hon.

Members are trying to make: that the Majority burn down Churches to put an end to religion.
mentioned I have thrown back to them the question of the Church the attitude as to whether and pro­ in relation right, pro­ motion of teachers per and just, and I have asked them to point out the morality to the appointm_ent is something of mora1ity, the question They have and in it.

Hon.

Members, as usual, will continue reply Party and the to destroy the P.P.P., the Majority attacking only thing we in the Government, can do on this side of the Table is ro Do not tell us that we to their attacks.
that we are going to bring are such devils hell and damnation The -Church itself-I historical history, for Demerara talking has not had a wonderful histo_ry past.

What is the reason for all this talk about morality, to destroy wanting am speaking not had a wonderlu.1 to what the hon.

Member this country!

of an and the Government River said when he was about the crusades .

The Church religion?

contrary fact-has in the If the hon.

M.ember, who dilated on the Development I would like hon.
Members to cast would cast his mind back to of C.D.

& W. Grants� how the Grants were brought the Motion to discuss Estimates.

the history realize It seems to me that the hon.

Member for what he Demerara has learnt in the past.

The C.D.

& W. m0ney is money which was taken from the _in the past.

Up to today British Colonies their minds back to 1939 and thereafter to see the part the Church played in sup­ the porting Government destruction of Abyssinia.

these things, truths.


But if they "knock" " nock" tllem back.

they are unpalatable me, I will Fascism as weJ!

as supporting I do not want to mention of the legitimate River wants to forget because he would about.

·69 Education 11 TH JANUARY, 1961 ( Amdt.)

Bill 770 tMR.

BENNJ With your perm1ss10n 1 Sir, l should Church against It is written like to quote from a book entitled Catholic Centurv."

hattan� disf!raccful 1taiy.

1 ''The the Twentieth by Avro l\lan­ t!


!e of the Church m On page 28 the book shows attitude quote: ··A.ad the Head of the Catholic Church in England state:--- went so far as to the to protect 1 and who these tbmgs.

Guiana a clause Party wantin?

to to remember attack of British freedom of religion.

I would like those who use the word 11Godless· speak.

of the Majority destrov religion us are afraid of is What· those who it is the of religion; not the destruction in British privileges Guiana.
What we are doing now: and what we shall do hereafter wm mow as against the followers the walls of Jericho.

destruction of certain of Joshua moved against all privileges in British Guiana ·�o speak plainly, the_ existing Fascist un.1w,t rt;k. rn rnany rc�,p,·;;h ... prevents and if Fascism.

worse injustice, principle nothing it.

God's cause goes under with.

can save the countrv from chao�,.

which in goes under.

I do not approve.

The book quotes it from the Catholic Times of October 18, 1935.
I should Perhaps page what was Toronto a submarine.

I quote: of l\fass 01i after having celebrated quote fron1 the same said by the Archbishop "The war against Ethiopia as a holy war, a crusade.

considered cause the Italian Ethiopia, a country matics, to the expansion Faith."

victory of infidels and sch1�­ of the Catholic shou!?

be be­ would "op�n the old ''Agree with thine adver-· the Majority Party in this Gov­ This Bill is an important I urge hon.
Members to reflect: landmark It is one stars in the crown of the in the historv of this country.

of the brightest P.P.P., ernment.

to see the gool in it and remember biblical saying: sary quickly whilst Who are our adversaries?

this Bill.

This Bill opposing we want to destro> introduced because we want to see justicf' religion, but because We ask hon.
and fairplay blin d themselves Members not to son, but t o cast their minds back to what has been said about this control Those who art has not been thou art on the way.

'· in this country.

i n the past.

problem of dua 1 to rea­ anything else?

Do you stiE Do not accuse us of of morality?

Do you want :,peak immorality Church!

and wauuu 6 '"'; 1.iC.

:,,TiJ} ti2t.· merely it does } local and people I happen to be the Chairm _an of the P.P.P.

The P arty does not cons�st of people who want.


Indepe�1dence; not consist mere]y of businessmen capitalists o:..alooI...:., difft'rcn Within the ra11ks :VIuslims.

Methodists n:)t the but it also beliefs of the P.P.P.

Roman Catholics.

and many sincere P.P.P.

fere with the 1egitimacy worship.

t relirrious int(T:tio.1 consists of the to inter­ of peoplc':=­ ,rnd outlook.

are Hindus.

of different political of people of Anglicans.

people.

H Sir, we proposed the I :on into the forthcomin[..'.
and supported C'onstitu insertion We wish hon.

Members to think ot Oil being appointed of education depends for the job of irrespective the future of this country, and to realize that the .succes� the best man in any one of our schools H Members his religion.

we will be able to tackle problem children thing is the teacher.

to think of these thing� anrl to �upport the Bill.

of education.

under a tree: the most important realize this very St�rim.h You can educate I ask hon.
Members that, then Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I am not a:­ as I usually am, Sir.

but this i:-a strong Bill on which l feel I should make some contribution.

not decry or deroiate the Church has rendered to by educating this communitv the sons anrl daurrhters I wish to say that r shall from the past service �f 771 Education 11 TH JANUARY, 1961 ( Amdt.)

of sc�ool for paymg grant� �or Bill 772 Guiana, Goodal� said: but let us look at the Only two d�ys British reality of the situation.
ago I read that the Reverend "The time has come when the Cbur_ch must move with the citizens and with revolutionary thoughts and ideas.

.

If t�e Church does not move and remam static That has been it will be left behind."

not only proved to be a true state of affairs in this country but tlm:mghout the �orld.

Only when the Church of a particular parish, moves abreast alive.

will one find the Church is or a particular group of peop�e I think it was the hon.

Nominated with who mentio°:ed Imperial system.


under the British Member, Mr. Hubqard, that the Church came to this country the Bible to keep the people subjugated forever They came here with the Bible in their ·hands so as to allow those who are ruling us to suck the last drop of blood out of us.

That is how they came here according to John Smith's appointed country in the days of slavery.

letter w�e� h� w�s a Minister of rehg1on in this buildings.
of cliscnmma!1on a�amst a rmnous school the control in the appointment funds fo: t_he r� and r�buildmg school in them and for retammg measure a considerable of teachers.

extension e and sometimes and still of to retain Church�s, _w<?uld_ be to .
make which does of the population and to sow are the chief providers there is justification holding to the Churches of control But to pay from public conditioning, inadequat buildings, particular an unjustifiable large section not belong to these Churches the seeds of an unending the other hand, to make grants to all may well religious and the m a generation; split the country schools a breach will of healing instead have m.'ade one, for at present parents send their children mon schools under the 'conscience far as can be seen, the only practical alternative are under final public control ownership bodies i�discriminate_Iy who is ultimate by the Governrner..t.'' and cases of withdrawal On controversy.
to ownership by trustees East Indian to the com_ clause' afle rare.

As The Church �nd those who are advo­ through for the new thought the cause of the Church are shout­ which is which has of the Paper which was in to the Legislative cating ing today that it is communism responsible come into being for the control schools legislation.
by Government But let me for the benefit of the Churches read from a Sessional presented 1942 by the then Comptroller ment and Welfare I refer to Sessional memorandum Guiana, various read from paragraph js what the Comptroller's Hammond, says in paragraph Memorandum dua] control For the moment I shall 12 on page 26.

This adviser, Mr. 12 of his which deals with the Council for Develop­ in the West Indies.

Paper No.

11 of 1942. on Education and I propose passages.


in British to read from of schools: "There are good reasons for advocat­ school system in British ing a government Guiana.

The 193•1 census shows 42% as East Indian and 38% of the population So long as the Churches as non-Christian.

I propose, at a later stage, to deal at length with this very important of com­ suggestion Guiana today, 18 which was presented to the in 1942.
At that time there we hear of it from the top of from the pulpits greater document Legislature was not the faintest but in British munism, years after, the churches, and from many voices in the Legislative that the motivating What utter nonsense have men and women?

How many of them observe neighbour been subjugated tremendous the Christian living.

pressure system.

of imperialism That is how we are as thyself"?

under Cuuncil, force is communism.


l What consciences the principle "Love thy Our country has and living under the that Social I heard the hon.

Member for Eastern suggesting (Mr. Beharry) should get the Council and non-Christian organizations and march in the Bill.

I say let the get together Demerara the Christian Christian to band themselves against protest Christian band ourselves for British from the pulpits to tell the children to fight for independence Guiana.

Let them preach it in school about it.


their teachers and instruct together Churches and let us 7T3 b:lucation !

1TH l\WUARY, 196 l ( A mdt.)

Bill 774 fMit.

1Al NARINE SINGH} have had good experience at school.

1 times and l have had some very hard times, in spite of the but I have succeeded difficulties which I encountered.

They 1wt1on.

Then I will say that the Church is n1ovfoii trnly in tht'.

s-pir1t of the have come from far off lands to teach us so how to liv;;.
Arc we still the \avages many of them in Europe and Britain think we are?

Perhaps they think we are stin walking any clothes.

apout without In many COUiltries the Church has I consider it very importa.nt that I Paper which I ref should read at some lengtl1 Sessional 1 n paragraph tion the Comptroller Welfare in the West Indies 8 of this Report says: on Educa- from the for Development and erred to earlier.
•·1 am aware there may be some under for the freedom fighting for the of the Church of the British been in the vanguard liberty of the nation and the freedom the people.

Even in South Africa where of the people are still the majority by the Government subjugation has been fighting people.

But what has happened in Guiana?

We have not had the slightest move by the Church in that direction.

They did everything in 1953.


The head of the subjugated Protestant took in this country religion part in the action to keep the people of this country the Interim oppression the people�s ing asked to preserve Church as against the people.

how I view the matter.

down 1 and became a part of Legislature of this country, the rights of the That is rights) and today we are be­ --··· part of moving against possible, to keep us the and the Mr. Hammond of schools.
to be made in regard to which buildings would be transferred.
of the arrangements to the .. B.G.E.7, bas sub­ of delay ia the completion of the full building programme because which require dual control in his memorandum, mitted proposals for the establishment School Trusts land occupied The ns to response by the several denomir.atio these proposals, as far Guiana as British is concerned, has not been, up to the pre­ sent� favourable, but some of the de• nomination,;, with modification'i in the proposals, might, be prepared I gather, them.

Tbe fact has to be faced.


accept who at however, that the denominations of present own the greater proportion are definitely not in school buildinas favour of the School Trnst� The proposal.

as far as I ca.D.

see at onlv alternative.

present, having regard of the population the adoption of.

a policy ... " �chooJ<:.


n to the compositio h Guiana, of Government in British to Religion is a sacred matter which to There is dalt: says: to then a Abraham Lincoln love the Christian He ,v;rn going and that is l�o; we should "In conclusion, I in my opinion.

would desire the solu­ and �o.

:ial be governs th..!

soul of man.

one God, one people and one world.

God did not say rnakt' nnn and rnade a priest.

labourer.

said he foved ('kid made so the common man because no many of them.
The Almighty practises discrimination.

view this matter.

I am a Hindu, but I probably much as I love my own.

I have the for the Christian greatest but I cannot support the Church in its desire try as it has done an these years.

I feel that thf' Government emphasize that, tion of many of the oconomk problems of British found if the.re of improved to fit more effectively the places they wi tions for advancement general Adviser to the and Welfare in the West Indies said in bis So much ha� been memorandum.
opening the proper step in said in this dC'bate that it is really has.

I am a product ing that the advocates school.

of the system experience.
It is not realize intere,;ts nf all tn �peal·\ nf one'� per�ona] just the opposite of dual control do not that the a�ument can b� u� in way in that thoge who of a denominational my but 1 would not deshmed the rhing genera• ll fill in the of the Colony.·, is an active educational of the continuance That is what the Educational for Development moving in the- way it always in the best developrrtent Guiana wm onl•.r Comptroller like to relate religion, in this coun-­ the schools to control services religion respect surpris­ has taken as ln parngraph 18.
Sir Frank Stock� 775 Education 11 TH JANUARY, 1961 ( Arndt.)

Bill 776 were saying that this attempt ment to control these schools munize" good on the other side.

the young children, was to "com­ will also hold by Govern­ Here were dual controlled schools, He does the headteacher, do not only teach at above all, has to at Sunday school.
any pay for his extra work, but trolled schools school; teach religion not receive of the support he is assured It is the Government teachers, obligated for or Churches doing any extra work other than what they are being paid for - that is, for teaching in the schools.

and I feel they should not be to the Managers of the Church.

who pays the of Religion whose the consent and forefathers but who were innocent But can't we ask what is the ?

Is the main by the Ministers to roughly 40 per cent.
non­ - innocent children did not have any controlled teaching Christians fathers slaves - religion, put into the hand of the Christian reli­ gion with or without of their parents.

main purpose of the schools purpose or to teach the necessary give the children teach religion, schools but if must be kept under dual control; it is for the purpose of inculcating morn� lity or good precepts who attend the sch_ools, they must be put into the hands of the Government.

learning?
learning?

then most certainly alphabet and If it is to of the schools in the youngsters then certainly to teach religion, is for the lands plus, all the teachers stand.

The bridges, and water tanks are all owned by the public funds of this are being paid funds and the Government to the Churches it, the 51 schools, under the had been built As I understand now being said to be brought control of the Government, completely Colony, from public paying rents on which the school� erections by the Government.
of the Churches The purpose their religion, ment is not against more churches dren should go and be taught Christianity in the Christian difficult the matter.

What is the interest the schools?

is to teach of the Churches and I am sure the Govern­ matter at all.

That is how I view the Church building the chil­ today; therefore, in controlling Church.

That is not a There has been, for a large number of years, a grouse.
Or, if I may put it this way, the Hindus and Muslims were kept out from becoming teachers and if they become teachers hope to be underlings Apart from that.

teac;:hers or not far from that.

in the schools, they can only in the dual con- over, - C.D.

& W. grants a lot of fuss was made grants and that in to take these schools Of course, about Imperial -which went to the schools, any attempt the Colonial Government should have a say.

But I have just been reading what the C-D. & W. people had been saying.
They have said that the policy of Govern­ ment-owned the split in the national Guiana; ment schools, Guiana the people would be split - and this was said since 1942 by, I think, was theq Educational Comptroller in the West Indies.

in British that if we do not have Govern­ Sir Frank Stockdale, who Adviser to the is the answer to stop upsurge for Development of British and Welfare schools But Mr. Hammond, did in his Report, not stop at the point where I have read.
I shall read a little further, friends will be able to be properly formed as to how the Imperialist Govern­ ment and its agents in British Guiana have been thinking.

what they have said at page 24 of the same report, paragraph so that my in­ I should like to read 4: No to be permitted difficulties "4.

Apart from lack of money in the in the money for the improve­ of the Churches.
is likely e to spend as liberally past, there are evident grant of the public ment of the property public authority by the legislatur church property The tendency other way.

Even were more liberal aid given to Churches the experience Jamaica and Trinidad srants aave not solved the basic problem.

cannot be overlooked in general is entirely where increased the as on public property.

grants-in for school buildings, of on 777 Education l l 1H JAKL'.ARY, 1961 ( Amdt.}
Bill 778 1:v!ic J/\l N-\RINE SrsGH] Paragraph 6 states: 10.The two questions.

the owner­ of teach­ of repre­ Guiana, an d the control Bodie':> during and the :,hip of buildings ers v,ere put before a meeting sentatives of the Gov�ming mv recent visit to British suggestions outlined in from all but two of the Governing received to co-operate Bodies.

is evident A qesire in some quarters and useful sug�estions are made.

but th.

:, repliers ... " \\ hole.


uinfavourahh: were made to them which are Appendix L Replies are.

on the have been as far as l gathet T think the hon.

Minister.

lS year� after wh:11 tnok plact:· in 1942, also h::ui �everal confcre.nces, from his opening address, with the Chris­ tian Social Council Church Bodies, but he found, all in all he could not persuade them as to the To con­ step to be taken in this direction.
ti n11e my quotation: and the various " ... the principal objectio n� hein.�: 1 a) that the local Manager will havt­ without more duties an d responsibilities compensatory control of the teachers.

the road is open to aliena­ without (b) that tion of the property to the Church.

(This rests on a miscon� It was suggested ception.

or !eased \l·iould became necessary rebuilding expense.

for the trarn;fer and payment kase of land was not excluded)."
he transferred at government or that the land only when compensation ( c)that the Churches wen� not con by the Royal Commission sulted of the control cannot accept or the mear.s now proposed into effect."

of teachers and for pntting it in resper.

:t therefore either their recommendation that Church "It is sometimes said are not private property schools and are in trust.

Bnt in the opposi­ already held for example.


tion v,:h:ch arises, to the consoli­ system of church schools, dation is not e.asy to see a spirit for 1 denomina­ tional an over-riding the churches.

tive of a government would be (:ornposed by differences desire a school t-.� to retain in pr<?t'erc;1,:e school."

for otherwise in the put,iic he, public.

of schools in a to the altern::· i'.

inte:-cst.

of trustce�.b;:p Paragraph 7 states : Guiana gave as hi.
;; opinion "The effect of sectarfan is not confined to questions of �chool�.

of One minii:;tcr jealousies, moreover, the consolidation in Hrttish "that for peaceful no other solution emment system."

cerned will tmth of this statement.

there could be progress thn.n a completely Those chiefly con·· go,·· he best ahle to judge Cif th,c b: of cenificate.

by the Educat;on control not 8.

Denominational affects property but the tea('.h,�rs or cancel• Gove·rning Bodies try of their de•nomination invc'.
'tigation in case of dismissal Bodies with the approval and with the requirement.

teachers also.

and promotion to be r�stri;:t�d with the nniv the In British Guiana they are appoinkd the Governing of the Din�ctor.

of previous Committee lation to r:et h:.·ad t�:a,J:ers and.

if PC'>',ible as::,,istant The field of selection tends the.refore teachers their denomination and varies owned by the Church number of schools to which the teacher belongs.
rian has littk chance of appointment as an assistan appointment sented as a condition church duties that relh!ious of t he denomination alleged ment out:;ide that their chances poor.

may be required to undenak•: :rnd to th:,t and it i, empioy­ find later ar-:: within of appointment as well as school instrnction and no chance of t teacher as a head teacher.
It is their denomination of promotiori concerned: who acct\Pt also that teachers thnt teachers A non�Chris­ is limited dutic'i, of to reprc-­ Mr. Gajraj: I beg to move that the hon.

�!ember be given another 30 minutr-:•,.

Mr O;n:is: T beg to ${'COnn t'hf' .\fotion.

Qm•stion put.

and agreed to.

9.

The W�t Indian Roval Comrn,1:,­ recommended '•:ion ( I) ) that "in :,dwols by the D;:nominations.

complete by the Government.

staff matter-sh01�Id be as,;1.1r ... ·H;:,l bv the Governme.11(.
(C11dfd74, page 12. mnna�d at prest�nt arc paid if salaries in "Against be remembered to the children control reads as follows: these objections tbere should the benefit that win accrue by putting the school on Mr. Jai Narine Singh: Paragraph 11 779 Education 11 TH JANUARY, 1961 ( Amdt.)

Bill 780 and that the disposal to the Government, of the school should lie in the discretion of the Government which might assign to the Trust concerned a Government school.
would be tq.at the working the plan as a means of co-operation and the Government tween the Churches would be subject as rebuilding it it as of this efficiency of be­ or maintain The effect became necessary."

to revision in each case "13.

The West India Royal Com­ recommended mission that "in schools at present the Denominations, complete the Government, should be resumed matters ernment".

(Cmd.
(Cmd.

6174 p. 12) managed b) are paid by control by the Gov­ if salaries in staff a considerable of These are the main points I desire to make regarding Mr. Hammond in 1942 which appeared a Sessional Paper.

by in the recommendations instead of an "aided" full maintenance measure of co­ basis, arid the greater operation that will be possible Government and the Churches vice of the children.
est of the children be the best road to a composition satis­ factory To make the inter­ aim will between the in the ser­ to all parties."
the overriding Paragraph 12 states: "There are good reasons for advoca­ school system in for holding extension school in them and for The 1931 census shows school buildings, in the appointment But to pay from public funds as East Indian and So long as the to the churches of control are the chief providers of school for paying there is justification Ling a goverment Guiana.

British 42% of the population 38% as non-Christian.

Churches buildings, grants retaining measure teachers.
and re­ for the reconditioning, and sometimes of inadequate building and still to re­ ruinous tain the control would be to make an unjustifiabl crimination population which does not belong to these Churches ending controversy to make grants ?iscriminatel m a generation; of healing for at present their children cases of withdrawal clause" the only practical ship by trustees is ultimat public control the Government."

are rare.

As far as can be seen.


to owner� alternative who are under final e ownership a breach will have made one.

East Indian parents send to the common schools and of particular e dis­ of the a la:rge section � may well split the country and the schools instead .
On the other hand bodies in­ and to sow the seeds of an un­ to all religious against Churches, bv Paragraph 17 states: under the "conscience in the dual control ''There are, however, as everyone who has had to deal with it knows, grave dis­ advantages To minimize the circumstances essential, that have not only a voice, sort a deciding buildings of schools.
and in them it is desirable of British Guiana it is the Government but in the last re­ of the voice in the control and of the teaching should personnel."

I have already referred to Appendix I on page 2 7, but I desire paragraphs - to read a few more "10.
In cases where the complete re­ on church building land, it is suggested that or trust-owned or leased the land should be transferred is necessary of a school It is now 18 years after the recom­ has not gone have been made that this has come forward very not by a Communist country, mendations Government Government feebly-the far enough-to imply what had been suggested by the but by people who were sent here Powers of Great Britain.

Sir Imperial Frank Stockdale.


ve loprnent and Welfare, suggested in 1942 that there should be complete control instead I do not think the Government has gone far enough in this matter.

,of schools by the Government of this system of dual control.

Comptroller for De­ I believe have been made regarding retary, the Financial Attorney-General.
are stooges"- that some unkind remarks the Chief Sec­ and the Secretary It was said that "they Mr. Speaker : That is not correct; that word was banned here long ago, and no one has used it since.

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I think the was used.

Words were that they were made \.vord "lackey" w:ed to the effect tools in the hands of the Government.

These gentlemen represent the British Crown-the very Crown which in 1942 which thi� laid down the principle Government is now advocating.
Government is carrying out the views of the people who were sent here.

This 781 Education l ]TH JANUARY, 1961 lMR.

j,\i NARiNE SINGH!

(Amdt.)

Bllf 782 Do not let us tW off to a debate on Independence now Keep tu and do not anticipate the point, Mr. Spcake1·: anything.

Dual contrul large· oi schuu1·" ii���, necn res­ man\' Hindus the teaching n, becau!-,1.

: t)\ '.t'!lt fur nwre people den.ominr,tion� As a '.tiid b,ive not profr�.sio , Mr: Jai Narine Singh: \:<.,min� b.ack t!ns 1ssth.'.

\r.
\r.

:mt tu �av itan community.

I thin1� in this pt'_llS!b!e.

to ;1, n,:it Jnmmg tne ,,..,.,,,nv,.

,,,,,,.., r,:�:ult ;,ikcn u:) they do not h�1vc a chanc1..' ;\fonv persons of the Christi:m ;0;11 th-: h� .c�l1iri, �h�, no!

ha��;· limited rnimb:.

:-r <.knominations.

co�rnopol is concerned of the neople Christi�ns have fairp1ay.

with those in another religion another and unkind t.o them, as it has been for long time, to continue today.

How we tn fin thi�; g trol of schools irrespective funds.
.,_._..... Gui - tu this ...... , �dH)t,ls if we do not attract Gniancse.

....... of their relif�ion.

;lre t'ntitlcd ti, justice and equal tre;..tnH:n 1 to have dual co11- pubfo supported from tti:n tlus 1:; 1:; far at, religion way of life.

[t would be unfai,· lh:c::,tse thcv There are not enou;�h and taxpayc:r•- of �,.
:hoc>l:, cc when there js :l nwncd by llk:ir ahout 50 per cen1 in our ap tead1er:, ,;··�,han country aud i 1 •• Jo not \vho ;i 1 !1'H.ion (t1::1 independent -··· a in a frw ha.s tr1 t,e St•l·rc-.L 1nvi� t,.1 cnr,!

.

l1,'clc.

; in.

lhh:.

cmmtry.

mould it in accordance stance., prev:::1ing rh,0 nroblem Jnrl rh:s ,� our countrv.

and we must "with the circum•• here.

\Vhf•ther this to th(• f it surm:irt t lwm 1 p,,, 1u · t'haL IluL certainly, >ort th-::n1 in incukatim!

i ,.
i ,.

:f inm,cnii children sonicthing wt w d1cn1.

I do think T of N of tl11.

: we will not sup­ nto the minds that does the Mfois- some has cited in which that was done.

a1 ural R .

:source� c:t\t.�:-.

chan:c that this HiJI h a n attack tn.

:tbfu] on religion.

frnm tl11-' Se�.sional [,r;:'.


;u�nenL 1jccause what l have read that Papers disproves the lrnpcri;il P't\'er 1 :i 1942 :in ·· cm duwn their represent� ano rile h, with their recommendation: ntauer, to go mto 1 his auv,�s is in keeping !nave 1lt:".�rcl trnt thi�; brought Frank �tockdak n·""'·ntin:}ci·1: This Bil1 has had so manv red her­ rings drawn across the trail that it i:, We nature.

of a very inter<•sting certainly on Communism: have had an attack the ·� l1i�-::n \Vt\rr!
�) i"nrl(\l)t�nd::-·11ce· the Ric(• .Mill Bill ,tnd a11 (�f things :1aw� been into thi:·, true that the with the Rice Mill Bill, but thf.

Govrn-1·­ ment probably wa:; wi:,e and.

�=ft er d lH' that it was uot the corFideration, decided h<:st thing to do.

\Y lVi moved tlv.'

Rkr Mill Bill?

Why w:t�; the people hehind tbf• r:.rn ?

\\·a�: dustry going to be har,1;wred 1)e<:ri hear tbe Mini-;ter Whn wen· the in• t \ lot h:i- our ,,,'.tTmomy.
Now I find that the this Bill are saying that our economy the day Let there be af iect the econumy of om countn:.

l 9:i2 Sir :,aid i;: Report that unle<::s Wt· did this it wrnd1!

affect advocates ag,i.inst ii, is going to afft.--ct we take ()\iZ.

'f these schools.

a spirit of nationalism, come all (hff difficulties: let there be u get together Guiana.

Churches, every n:: religion .m be entitled as he likes.

and let no .

sect or group of Government did not prncecd or anv rcJuion I may say it n1tA·e<l?
debatP.

:�aid about 1 t b .

.

: divide us.

Let in the interests of British '· .

;t;t lndepemlencf• that the Hindu�, can11• this country My fat.her under a great <fo:ndvat1ti�:\( · recntitr·d an<l mother W!

:•re to carry on his own and we shall over" 7 83 Education 11 TH JANUARY, 1961 ( Arndt.)

Bill 784 on of that support that they could not he who suggests you were not recruited.

officers.

The result was that India on the understanding that they did not know to read or write.
If you were a priest or you said or the son of a priest, you were a Brahmin or that you could read and write, Those who came here as immigrants the understanding read or write told an untruth cruiting they were able to carry on their religion which was never in conflict religion in harmony with the other races.

What we want is a continuance when independence force religion down the throats people.

Religion and is not only taught in school but in the home.

of the harmony comes.


People cannot of other with any other They have lived can only come from people th_e measure.

I in.

God.

My inspired must feel ashamed of himself to this forthright I am supporting am a Muslim.

I believe reli_gion to me is as dear as my life itself, therefore this measure who are communist munists, after listening of mine.

I am no communist teaches earlier, tolerant therefore tolerant like myself may possess.
But being tolerant the acceptance my religion to others, of the views that human beings .

As I said me to be I must be of such views does not indicate the at issue is whether of this system of dual control in this country.

of those views by me.

is something The question or are com­ sacred to the re­ statement are supposed under its control.

which in the to receive I must support in the stand it has taken.
I think we should allow the Govern­ ment to take care of the instruction the children schools the Government I think this should have been done long ago, and those who accuse Members of the Government probably hypocrites they have not dared to face up to the truth and the realities in Guiana.

The great God who has British man kl).ows no bounds, created colour or creed.

God made man, but he But did not make him with a religion.
He hoped that with the brains He gave man he would know how to live with his men.

fellow of being hypocrites because themselves, no class, of the situation are schools and I will continuance of our primary is good for us in this country.

That, as I see it, is the for us to consider, main point the many paths which my not traverse hon.
Friend, the Member for Georgetown South (Mr. Jai Narine Singh), I will merely say that over years, of Education in moving the Second Read­ ing of the Bill, there have been several impartial persons dividuals matter, equivocally of Government schools control for denominational the last 35 out by the Minister - Commissions the - who have considered of elementarv control.

have been un­ in favour of the substitution and whose reports as was pointed has done.
and in­ It therefore pains me to have placed in the course over a period of this debate the Mr. Gajraj: of most of the hon.

Mem­ and in particular At first I had not but to speak on this measure, of days intended after having listened to the remarks bers of this Council, having heard one hon.
Member charge that this Bill is communist and inspired, that those on this side of the Table who will support and it need their prayers their sympathies, on me to take part in this debate so as to make it clear where I st<1:nd, offset the very untruthful "lThich on record baseless charge that communism communist force is behind this inspired measure, for if such be the truth then whether Lord we must ask ourselves Moyne and his Commissioners were com­ munists inspired; Major and his Commission Sir Charles inspired: were communists whether Adviser Coloriies, inspired, who has just retired Mr. Hammond, the Educational to the Secretary was a communist or whether of State for the or communist Mr. J. I. Ramphal.
as Commissioner and possibly remarks to I have felt it incumbent or communist or communist I will refer.

whether or a of 785 Education l l TM JANUARY, 1961 ( Arndt.)

Bill 786 School in those days, and they were de·­ [MR. GA.JRA.J] voted teachers•- teaching the children placed in thci r charge, irrespective of their religious back­ ground.

.Labour.

munist inspired.


For looking at some of my old files I Indian Opinion the following magazine find that in the of the 27th May, 1938, was or is a communist devoted to the appears: task oi or com­ "Mr. J. I. Ramphal moved: Dr. M. Seera:j seconded, and it was 'Resolved that this Conf ercnce sup­ ports the recommendation of the Educa­ tion Commission of 1924, and requests e the policy Government of Government schools in place of de­ nominational ones.'
to accelerat Mr. Ramphal, in moving the Reso­ said that the 1924 Education had decided unanimously lution.

mission favour of Government schools as against denominational ones.

They were in favour of Government schools because non­ Christian to difficult find ready employment in denominational schools."

find it very Com­ in teachers instruc­ \vho came from the homes of I wish to God that in these to the indivi� I say this as a tribute that be� duals rather than to the system.
cause of the strength of character of thC' late Mr. Dan Sharples religi.ous tion was not forced upon any of the children non-Christians.

days we had more bands oi devoted teachers like them, because have become household tory of education in thjs country.

I per• sonally.

the Minister another Government school tJ1at it h� named after would like t o suggest that when of Education the late Mr. Dan Sharples.

words in the his­ is naminir their names I listened to the hon.
Member for of of a conference like Mr. J.T.

Ramphal, It was on the occasion the British Guiana East Indian Associa­ tion.

and at that time the Association had as members of its Executive Committee Christian Indians tl!e late Mr. J. A-Luckhoo.

)Ir.

E. A. Adams, Town Clerk.

the late Dr. :'.\L Seeraj,' and many others.


1 the charge of communism were valid w1' must ask whether churchman, "\fission being a communist thi5 staunch a member of the Canadian could be charged with or communist say that if ourselves inspired.

Clrnrch, similar religion.

days of Saladin.

River (Mr.

Bowman) when he Demerara said that this Bill was aimed at the Christian cannot I, naturally.

agree with him on that score.


He went on to say that it was somewhat t<i on the Holy the attack of the Muslims History Land in the by variouc:: books have been written pro .. people, carries the historian vided by a particular flavour beliefs and of his own particular thoughts.

1, myself: have read in Engiish and his peopk history books of Saladin fighting the Christians but.

i n Jerusalem; as a Muslim, history the same.


many cases the history of the same incident, I have also read mv own which .. is not and in My friend, the hon.

Nominated to school.

The man the Christians Member.

Mr. Davis: made reference the fact that he wa.c:.

a. product of a de­ nominational and he v.--as very ki1�d tk, t to state that h e and I attended primary school together.

I confirm his statement.


We both attended St. Thomas' Scots School under the head­ !cacher�hip and £ want to pa.y a uioute w men li k,: Mr. Sharples, and his sister, :\fiss Clarke and Miss DeW eever.

Those we bad at St. Thoma1�' were the teachers as Saladin din; and, also.

he wa'; engaged in de­ fending at that time.


Never­ theless .. he was a man imbued with rnch sense of justice recorded battles when ''Coeur-de-Li injured, garb of a medicine man ( a on" of England had been he (Salah-ud-din) Mr. 1\,faske!L Mr. Ramsay Miss Ramsay, Miss Duke, and fair play, that it is that during one oi uw he learnt that Richard of the late Mr. Dan Sharples, donned thf• doctar) then is the Emperor in history Jerusalem referred really Salah-ud­ l·" 787 Education 11 TH JANUARY, 1961 (Amdt.)
Bill 788 side -went among the Christians, people who on free access moved to the scene - because were doctors were allowed either wounds and, be­ banded King Richard's cause of his special knowledge, to treat him and nurse him back to re­ covery.

That shows the character Muslim people.

These are the things we fail to find in English which, of course, history foundation of humanity the goodness that lies in the hearts of people who are not Christians.

books.
books.

But that strikes at the it shows because was able of the Mr. Speaker: Can you get the volume for the Official Reporters?

Mr. Gajraj: This [holding copy in hand] will be available to the if Official Reporters there is any fear that the transcription is inaccurate, 213 of that Book, it can be verified.

it reads: and, of course, On page up " "The Missionary system", said the the organ of the that through religions, "in fact, is undermining religionists.
who have not accepted the fact - over the century, In this country - there can be no and education your plans till it because of the slaves Christianity the example a few days after Mr. Smith's the institu­ gainsaying people and have maintained, of their in their own homes the teachings and their tradition·s.
their tradi­ parents tional have been looked upon as being a sort of second-class resulting One can understand from the rebellion and the death of the martyr Smith, about the middle of the nineteenth century, the who were also, of owners of the slaves, course, of the day, passed resolutions and in this Council stipend r�cruited, ary Society because that since the Rev.
John Smith and men like him came from the London Missionary they must find ecclesiastical Society can fit in with the view who, more easily, of the nlanters was in 1848, I have this association Christian Editor of the Colonist, slavehold·ers, d•eath, the political exist­ tions, and endangering It is most unfor­ ence of the Colonies.

tunate for the cause of the planters that they did not speak out in time.
They did not say as they ought to have said, to the first advocate of missions -'We shall not tolerate you prove to us that they are safe and necessary-w e shall not suffer you to our slaves, enlighten who are by law our property, till you can demonstrate, and know­ when they are made religious ing, they will stilJ continue to be our slaves.
Africans not be ignorant that our power over them can exist only so long as WE are more highly educated are few-they moral qualities, to be made equal, of government, ment, which is the same thing, determined force'.

they would have stated they would have used arguments which entitled risk., before a sermon was pecuniary preached, on their pro­ taught perty.

But they did not think fit to do this.

They too were infected of humanity; but chapels these chapels which, in similar ever done.
some of the planters be astonished."

out in the streets to pay a ministers not from the London Mission­ they considered and enlightened.

are many-and if their or education, of those days.


And so 1+ think, that we began to by the cant would s�rve them and now when that the power or the right of govern­ We have no desire with undue rigour, to treat the but we can­ Members of the Legislature There is a volume, which is not by the amount of physical ecclesiastical in these days, but there have done the very thing circumstances, they hav� affect to them to be secured of State and the Churches.

If the planters to certain had spoken thus.


agreeing and schools; be allowed or a lesson it follows people nothing all against will be We stubborn truths.

and library, obtainable easily is one in the Royal Agricultural Commercial Society's Memoirs of "The Demerara and edited by Rev.

John Smith, written the Rev.

Edwin A.

Wall bridge, and that was in the year 1848.

It is from that volume that I have made certain copies quoting entitled Martyr", page as well.
"We, therefore, deem it our sacred and our and bounden duty to ourselves dependants, by every authorized this Colony, tion, and more particularly to oppose and resist, means, the establishment of any descrip­ those of the of sectaries in Continuing, the planters said: 789 Education 11 TU .JANUARY, support lhe sandion, of the Colonial Majc:ety's 1961 (Amdt.)

of such establishment; f'i, relying t.'" and assist,,1J countenance, Legislature.

and or If:.

Government.''

Bill 790 petition('.d that the Criurt .


i� l', }o:; l to exrei ail J\F London i\Iisskmary Sot.

:ict:· fore.

resoJv,;rJ, b1.> forth.wim sionaries law be pass'.

!.J, of a.ny Mi:c,si,mnry for �b,, futuH.:.

Colony, prohibiting !be �idnfr;sio:i thi" frorn the Co!oir,; t1 •1d tirn t 1:>rt:,:..,'.11:r:) :nL, H goes on •·- tili11k 1,11·rn:::iion ( !.

�;hc;u!d : 1f ,\kmbers vcrv intcrc:st111g.

rc .. {d iL out for the in- and To cut off all vv,:ls ' CJ,l;"ali" .

wi�,h of th·.

: said t11at "'to a :-"om'�tmi:?


arc from the n1:groes.. op�nly ,wow,�d Vt'"c: eXJ.

';{-(;f\ �rc�1t:.:.

--,�Jf Chnr,.

::t1-gomg -0t Jnisi.akea.

lt i< not L!

tbit of' �urp:ise been t:n:gh t. th rt t �d l re1igi{):1s '.

'O.mc principh; SLA.v L,-:,, ��(: poLnt of to "Ihat while thfa rneeting earnc-.,11v to t.he protection re{:ommi:nd Government ,,,nee of His 1vlajesty·s ti1e Colonial Legislature, th� religiou:� of the E:,tablished ::,titttt.iorn.
al;·,�:td_Y, fo1m:lcd am':'ngst u�, it is with a VIC.w t<1 desHanl,; th:.

: adoption grnerd rdigr ous in:::tnJC!.ion, aud a�sist· and in­ Churches ,t11<.1 cxpcdie.nt, of a plan for (urtli,.

:1 dhti ibute<l into three chief class(::-, c,i as wdl ,"':·ho.

from pri,:ciplc, f'-:rson�, 1roni !

;:,n11 and education, tl) }'" 1:HH:Y differ�nt_ for�m of wors:iip.

,ire atta:..:ht',l To meet this to afford thr 1:,laves that 1he community shoul;; b;rnishiri:.
:nt th1: Yacuum about to bt: cai::;;:;d l:Ompub.ory ie•;, s1..1ffkicnt ordained wpply of state-dnm:h should he fo:t-d up b, ck,K.,P�'n.

by the of ,,tncm e�Joym ,·iv.T (:.

::,, mi rv 1ne sanction mu ion al ,:hurch,.

f or med i.he English Seo/ch Prcshyterian-�--the first g tn ;,he mot!"il.'''

� � or (J<.Wernment the Dutch Re­ and 1:K Episcopal, viz: •-·· and 1:1<:l b..::: «nd ... �d a:; thi;;; cornmunitv in<:11.,de•, e in doctrine.
governrnenL i he "am of the Roman Cllthoh· it is just d nd proper thai an: ;:,tTsua.sion.

;.�enernl ,r:·hc:me :-;iwuld inp fh,:rn -.

:x•::rcis: compreh(:nd a provision for rdigiou-, instn,ctio•, for :tfh,nl • an opportunity for the pnbJi, mH!

profrssion of their relif·wn"" J:-.

was.

r•'.

'solvnl, tb,•r,:ror•.'.

11) sekd 5::lve:· and endow a e position, \vr:oi� Stah:, should h·: a '1,.

:c,nrit/ .

order of clergy, 1s of the ,,s :;ci·v:rn good tb_cfr �!
:::;fa:��-u£a�fi=v ,f ;1/;�;'.n 1 Tlnt �ivcs an indication as to how from the davs which manv forget.

The:v arf'.

em·­ they "\i.ron1d of �;pirit�nl of !

'.

".,) Covar: \11,;;;1.

�!�::;�•i��� we rnnvc <;n wonld 1 ik,.· to of this r1�-:::crin:ion.

,.xm�idi:rinf thern- b!nzoned ?.

'ith the ... paths of Gt;ianese .

,,s ::lli�" mlF-t YV,: move on from those days histor:'J· .

to the tune when the Church and the po�:�es:; State-bectmc :issociate each d r.vith Churche:.
:, and other ·---· the e�t::ibli•,hed num�­ the Strite T'hat fo-;ted for ri lom� be.r of years but in 1836. of Demer�,;-:J districts dividt:d h•to six three aHow:d to the Church of Ernr1and and three to ::dmirnhly for fiited and c•f ;,ny trnhst the Coionie.

:; had been this d\?ler,1'.inati(),1 jn.ni,;,,�ries os thr Church of Scotfand.

and Esseqn!bo oarochial ---­ J)Ub· .

the r:,chitr:rr�•/ it lie an in bv rnean� ,·h!1n.:.�hes.

"r n ;;ddition to the�:e •• a provbicm parhh church w:i<.
:rftcn-v:ird< 0 0\tr1h1i".

:i1r,1ent made for a min f{1r1r:c·,J r: prie,t�:," Romar: C.ith•li,: ·hurch_ and �.

!1--:c) i--te-r of ih,· n11tch R, for-cc-rt:iin ivf�l:; and ,and !t�tited o n�nl�,t� l:·oth collec- n:0,ourc,;•:: Frorr1 lXlf"'.

: 220 of book he ,y prrrvi\�CH!

.. fc,-r 1h :, state� ::o far our ·will the same :,<lmiL i:n,:1iru.l n::-cc�;!�ar 791 Education 11TH .JANUARY., 1961 (Amdt.)
Bill 792 "In 1838, the Colony of British Gui­ ana, was erected into an archdeaconry, and in 1842, it was constituted by royal letters salary Lord Bishop, paid by Commons.

£2,000 per annum, being grant from the House of a bishopric patent-the a yearly of the agreed that the Church l think it was in the 1930s when it faith.

was finally should be disestablished The disestablishment from the State was not looked upon by at the time as the Church Authorities being in their interest, because measure eleven by.
a fair lost there­ of income had been from the State.

of the Church At the present time, there are twenty­ Church of priests, of the residuary one Dutch Refocmed minister, at the expense To pay the stipends ( in• bishop), of the Colonial four English Church clergymen, presbyters Scotland, and eight Roman Catholic eluding a Roman Catholic alimented revenues.

officials, ecclesiastical churches with which thev are connected.

for the year 1847, the ·sum of 119.797 dollars ( £24,957.
by the Combined 15.607 dollars for the.

schools paid and Wesleyan Court.

(£3,521.

connected J 4s.

2d.)

was voted to the in addition 9s.

2d).

vote(!

with the State• and to sustain churches.

of these the Guiana With two or three marked exceptions, clergy of British have carnfu!ly or too "religious''.

one part of the vocation to them----they from making the peopl,: either the Establbhed have fulfilled assigned abstained Thev too "knowing" have not been distinguished as aboundinr.
in labours, o:· as examples of sound doctrine.

as preachers Scottish moderate Anglican Bishop, great favour."

have been of the loose.

whilst ministers school; clergy.

th� Lord heresy has found of holy living.

the Puseyite with manv of thi:.'


including The that one of J noticed by the Church Authorities that a legal Juminary extent quite recently in the C aribbean, Barbados, the Islands has made a move to disestablish the a howl has Church from the State, and been raised to such an of the Church had to be flown out from the United Kingdom to advise the in Barbados.
That Church Authorities goes to show that even though it might be said that the Church has contributed considerablv the education of the people·· it is con­ has verse Iv true also that the country contributed towards the continuance considerably of the Christian towards in this country, Churches.

Mr. Speaker : Time.

Mr. Davis: I beg to move that to speak the hon.

for another Member be allowed minutes.

thirty Mr. Fredericks: I beg to second I need not make anv further the Motion.
on an event which deals with the history of our coun­ from that very memorable quotations book written very vividly try.

But I merely refer to i t to show that it was around about the middle of the nineteenth century became associat that funds from the Colonial were paid out each year to cover the of these gentlemen and the stipends of running teach their the schools religion.

which were set up to costs when the Church ed with the State.
and Revenues It can be seen that the Church con­ e of the tinued to enjoy the patronag of this country through its people� Legislature: through its general which was collected irrespective of their faiths from al1 and sundrv or Jack �f revenue Question put, and agreed to Mr. Gajraj: The point I w as cn1, .. the education of the it is conversely has contri­ making _iust before my time expired is tha!
in the same way it can be argued that the Church has contrihutt:'d siderably towards people in this country, true also that the country buted considerably tinuance 3 period of years.

I do not say, of course, was bad that either )r wron2:.

I think in the circumstance$ of the time that it was very desirable, and a lot of good has resulted We must understand, age.

::lrc not living in a static towards the con­ over Churches from it.
however, that v.� of the Christian contribution ll TH J"ANUARY, 1961 (Amdt.)'

Bill 794 We have been· told ·by -md�p�ndent, 793 Edu..:·ation : M:: .. (iAJ F...AJ} l·riend th-: !vti.

:mber for Snnth ha� rderred to a the Rcvereud Mr. mack by statement at �t mt"ering (,ocidall to rhc dynamics ,;.

:here ht: referred the static lh:.

: ag-: a5 agaiH:-.t of this age.

1,cnpk of rak of the at th(: Town Hall Bodies.


lw­ in a diminution e to create great friction of the number of for the themselves bottle• it will create intclhgc11t men who 1·1.-put�1bk, icarn1;d, tb.e past this matter.in have discussed is bound that this sysn:m of Dual Control to continu and result persons who will otier profession: t caching necks in certain Reli�ious i:ause they do not· have e nout!h school:­ tu be �1hk'.
to pc1mit a large enough to �et all number of their 11wn followin� of the _iohs in the schools, We have nd it ha� been told all of these things, a been urged that the.,auswcr to the prob­ lem would be to place all of the .schools on one level under control How can w e be charged for education t,rr sr?

he a verv lopsided ··by' with doing ill Tt �eems to me to argument, the State, son1;.

: \Vhil:-.t by �,Litement ,·1:t'icr d lhc.

hon.

Members or inforen s,,k:lv that this measure h thi;.
: non-Christians ce intended at or' lhc Chfr,ti am, Jet me ii ck �ir rh:.1t uur Christian : uggested ru be111:lit the .

::xp,:n::.

: 1rn1ke the State \vas �ubsidit:i�1g th�: l'luE.

:il(:- tbc on� pl:.

'nny towards th-: a�sistanct: it migln ha vc giv�n rhe m,tintciunc Judaism, State did nc,t contribute or �tny other rninudty way to islam.

e i:1f Hinduism, in:.:'.

the v.:\1r� wh�n rdigion:� in a h�ry smaJ.1 l.: ri tlsh Guiana.
Statl' were Christian;,� Christian::- -· were this bond between thi;k tl1cy are right th�� officers of the it is, of co urn:, the case that the who were in authority at the Bodies for fo-:ht ing this battle and the Church •-· the mem­ or to suit them­ J Jo not blame them for it, no pt:rst,n:, timt: vdicn there wa:-; Uh.

: State ber:; of th,: called themselves :1ble to make ;.irrangemcnts seh·es.

rnorc than I blnmc Christian to the b<;t ditch.

I in doing so.
I in doing so.

In fo!htiniz :ire fighting to pre;erve which they have en­ estf.

:, and privilege".

jcyed over a numher of vears.

and to wnnld be less ·from them have eo-�prctcd �i misnnderstandin� of human nature.

Hut in doing so I think thnt they dn a very poor turn when, in­ !hemsclves of hac:;ing their attack�� ,;tcad r-ients tha.t c;1n �stand the li!!

'ht nf the dav.

thev �ter, out of their creases and.

2S we now find in thic:: Council.


attack other religion� as weJl ac; .the intention� l-,r r,roved ' this battle thcv ,md rea�on on :mru­ Churches We have �vcn,had fieeUQ,g• 'lisits to by Heads of two of the Es­ which are doing the people of British Gui­ Oeoomination of Member, Mr. this country tablished work amongst ana : The Methodist which the hon.

Nominated' Davis.

is a member.

and the .Lutheran.

\Ve have had Dr. Fry as head of the Lutherans.

man myself, that he s�lid.


with the Minister possibly ment he was satisfied intention from continuing tlrnt m:1intnin nay for the privile�e of so doing.

1 did not meet the gentle­ but l read in after having of Education of the Govern­ that there.

wa.s no the new.s.papers had discussions and to prevent Church Schools in British Guiana, ,but Churches were to he �;]\\' that if the other Ministers their «;\chools.
then they ·mmt Body •···· J n the case of the head of the I think his name is having read in \1 cthodist Rev.

Rogers - 1 recall the newspapers .

control But, as 1 unde�stand 'it,.

Government should i!O .slowlv matter.

his .. plea was th;t in this of these that he said that dua.l as; a sv�tem must go cventuallv.

Here we have.

head".

0f oe0n?e.

whkh re�llv cannot 'the ri1hts.

inte;­ made Bill 796 ... B1}dies.indicating_ in no uncer­ One ays "Go slowly"; 795: Education 11TH JAN_UARY, 1961 (Amdt.)
Religwus tain.

terms tha .a .chang� must.be iIL.the system.

the.�other say� .

"We oan_ maintain.

our but we must pay for Church Schools, are tolct to us, it".

When these thing� it becomes absolutely clear that there is no� intention people ties of .

the Churches relig!_Dn.Jo their followers.

himself.''

I would be very pleased deed if the hon.


Member to whom I refer were able to use his undoubted ability we see and energy which sometimes in !us speeches, overfiowmg to bring about a union of the various in religions this countcy.

We hear so often and we read just made that the forces of this of this.
country, or the Authori­ the riwt to teach whatsoever to deny the in­ by precept bodies to get together into the minds of the people the love of God, of Jus­ and evil are overcoming We read of pleas being made as often charges darkness country.

to the · religious and instil of this country tice and of Truth.

Yet the very people who are supposed to teach us these things show so much of Christ.
Religion religion indestruc­ is based upon certain tible moral laws, and we find these laws translated in every religion.

which have grown up over the centuries here and there and trnns1ated - it is these things which divide the peoples groups.

which are basic But it is the frills of the world into various into principles do not as and example into rituals religious · Demerara.
he is not· in his seat-at the •to' have listened to the Of cour e: many· of-these poople are0trying to·fight··very· haFcl ·to maintain their ·freehold.· I hbid on ·to my religion as�mu ch1 as I ·holcv{on to my--Iife; and I dd-:-not see-in· it any· challenge �to the .

I was vezy teaching:-of one'·s· religion: much\ enthused htnr.

Member for-Eiastem Unfortunately, moment-: It seems to be rather usual when-one has to-refer to a statement ma de�by�the hon.
Member·that he -is not here to hear what one has to say in reply, but if he has the time he will ·read· it ·in-the Hansard.· I heard him speak' with· such great fervour,· urging the Min­ Council isters ofithe and of ·the heads' ·of 'the· Cfiristian bodies to gQ out and �j(?

'in ·forces• with the· Hindus and ·Muslims in order to let them under­ stand 'what i. , comnmnism.

Ghrisfran Sacral Church and.

the State.

how "integration" ,the pas.L I ,did say earlier Well;, itnis -perhaps ,another· way.
of may be lack of but it shows a complete indicating applied, kho ledg�!.-0 than, po · ly , .beca:uss-t>of thet·association of the· Christian thoset people, who have held religious view.

·:-oth r than Christiani look: d upon· as belonging.

to second-cla s religion from· time�to time statements made by ,in this the: head' of 1Chris·tian religions, that conn: ·onec gets ,the!"
impression w.krn tis · b bindctit all is, th belief "that minePi �theconly.· real andrtme religion, and:, anfon : els ,, wh r- says; he has a r ligion11tlta tis.

not.

mine iS: only, fooling J A a matter of fact, reading 'ff, have been advised­ between than there If we were to get the leaders of the sects--!.
say "sects", 1 woula like to think of as one, but it is divided into say I can only of the that there Christian ly, because Christianity so many sections that that if we could get the leaders sects to understand Christian of agreement is a greater area them in their religious concepts is disagreement, then that first step to be taken by the Christians When they shall have come together.
done that they will find that most of the area of disagreement which they have found., common to themselves common to the other great religions the W<9Tld, and it is only by a humble to this great and all-absorbing approach problem that I can see any hope for those -who· want to see the various reli­ gions getting together becaus mah a step in that direction, would be the tu so as to be able to is also o 797 Education i l lH JANUARY, 1961 (,lmd1.j BiJJ 798 RAJ j {MR. GA.} He bt; th..:--�!mtgl�ty i:, Lhe same whether \, ,.
)rsn1pp�t1 of i'-rishna, .k:,us or any of the prophets.

Muhammad, m>m the teachings Moses, Solomon, that i!

:) in th� .\!embers ,iilocated to priests �p�ak of equality.

done properly.

t.1ings of the Council: wliHe the seab the Muslim and Hindu ari.

;; behind the rail.

Yet we chain, behind those u1 \Ve want to have w i: gd down to the ba:-:.1c, concepts anJ we 1lnc.1 that the teachmgs are the who arc same, but it is wi: human beings grounded in pride who create and main­ tain these waHs o-f division.
Let us get these walls down and prepare a proper basic understanding, and we will be good for t he world, doing the greatest from which to fight any fantastic ideas or doctrines.

because band such a large section and we may b e able into true believers, to sweep aside any doubtful ones whc :nay ari.�e.
we may be able to of humanity During t he hfr of this Legislatur let us under­ have the tradi­ on of Church and State that in the prayers e lbavi; never referred t:o it, but as we are idking about these things '-tan<l it dearly.

We still tional associati in this very Council art' read at the beginning f am not attacking prayers �vht�n one look� around one sees that 50 :,�r cent, of the Council is non-Chrisfam.
lthink we can have a prayer which with the religious would be in keeping thoughts viokncf' of every one of us and yet do to the hrlief, of every s,•s:-ion ns such, but of none, arrived w b.en Sir Rai.ph Grey, our new in British Uuiana we churches of There was no Hindu presented.

I do him here and thl.

!n he went into vanous per::;oru; were of Guiana British Governor, received the.

lobby where pn:�emcd to him.

Representatives the Christian were included in the list of those persons to be presented.
priest or Muslim priest 11ot blame anyone for it.

I say it is because of the traditional way in which things have bet:n handled, but now that we have had it brought to our attention lfeel su.re that changes.

Those changes in this dynamic age.

It has been so said recently.

and we must not forget that changes in Brit� arc not happening ish Guiana alone but all over the world.
Let us have all these changes made with orderly with justice we move on to the stage where we will we will he looking find things have to �ake any violent changes to satisfy the rights of the people a� n whole.

proper thinking: done to all, so that when after our o� affairs a5 we want them and not we shall see are necessary precision.

in the future and Over the ve£trs WI.!


have seen tllat on :-.pccial opening occasi�ns of the Council, in this Council, the the reception ldo not propose to speak much of to are agn --··- I t many citizens m.:w Governor or :,;aying farewell longer, but I would sav this: that like manv of the hon-Me;·nh�rs die who is dep,1ning.

�ide of the Table, invited 10 come and join in our assembly.

with this measure, but my dissatisfac- it was onJy a few yt:.
:irs 1ion do�s not arise from t;eing: it w<1s i.n I 956 or l 957 -·- tc what it seeks to do.

My dissatisfac­ mv in:-:.trumentalitY tion stems from the fact that it does not \,fuslirn enough, and, if my closing P-O for in the list an.� to be an indictment of the members haw b(cn r--:ru!arlv invited.

but one of th.

:: the �head� of every Christian find:; th.cit 1 lwm with 1y1virn.� denomination would he seated in what virzitors ;,ve cs l!
,,ur distinfrnished the name;,; of two were included Since then they dnwn from �.vhat w:1s right in order Government T shall now charge I am not fulJy satisfied the, those persons who have that through ves to a1lowed th<:msel of invikcs, L)•;atisfy P'.3.llery and Hindi; prie�ts opposed on thi> words hink Education 11 TH JANUARY, 1961 (Arndt.)

Bill 800 799 p0sition rig�t to fight for the _established for so many which they have en1oyed I do hope that the hon.

Minister years.
Minister years.

will bear that in mind, because let me merely say that this is not something of which I am proud.

It could have been a better satisfactory more justice but not because we should give it my full support.

Bill.

lt would have been more and there would have been to the people as a whole, it does not go far enougt it.

That being so I not support : 1 do not know if Member wishes to speak.

Mr. Speaker any otner Ther,e being no other speaker, of the Bill may now reply to the debate.
the Mover and so ably the side of the Table for having The Minister of Community Devel­ (Mr. Rai) : I to Members on the opment and Education am very grateful opposite done much of the work which, normally, I would have been expected to do, an­ swering so admirably points sought to be raised by those Members who are in opposition to this I think Members are quite measure.
correct go far enough - that in view of the ar­ gument which I myself have adduced in this Council, this Bill should have pro­ vided for the control schools in the country system under the aegis of the Govem­ men t. that this Bill does not of all primary under a uniform in saying I recall control to provide there was intro­ a sys­ fur a modified in that country that when duced into the Ceylon Parliament measure tem of schools there was such a hue and cry by the Catholic body in that country Parliament, was recalled a new Bill was substituted control which was then in recess, and the Bill withdrawn, of the schools in Ceylon.
to take full that but I do not propose, however, this Bill and introduc completely, to e a Bill to for the control of withdraw provide, ail scn001s in the country; but, I hope that from what hon.

Members have sa1ci here and from the form in which the Bill has been put up and the efforts .have been made to secure agreement onal bodies, with the denominati Members of this Council would be per­ suaded that this has been a very re­ strained and modified Bill.
that that Certain interes ting points have and the most by my hon.

of dual control from this debate, of them has the volte-face Mr. Burnham.

Mr. to emerged interesting which has been executed and learned Friend, Burnham said he was not ashamed admit that in 1953 he advocated the abolition said he is not ashamed and, probably, he is right because reasons for objecting ted in 1953.
In 1953 he not only pro­ of of dual control posed the abolition recor­ but it was authoritatively schools, ded, elsewhere, to that he also proposed the textbooks re-write lines.

along c;ocialist to what he advoca­ in the schools he has not given any of schools.

He I would like to quote, The Daily Chronicle J 960, on the People's gress' Essequibo, of the P.N.C., also, from of 6th June, National at Anna Regina.
when Mr. Burnham, Leader is reported as saying: annual congress Con­ of to the "On the question of control Mr. Burnham paid tribute schools, role which the Church has historically Guiana.

He played in education in British to own said the Church should continue its schools with educa­ and be associated tion, lending important and ideas."

to it certain morals This, of course, he said in 1953.
But he went on further and said: is a change from what "However, the time has come when can play a more positive role Government in the appointment, missals based on moral liability competenc a<fl:lerence to any particular promotions and dis­ to be of teachers-promotions on a person's e as a teacher rather than religion."

g(}l Education 11 TH �TANllARY, l 961 ( Anuit,.)

BJ/I 882 tion of his, GOYOmmc:att to tai.e O\'er the pdmary school� <the.
question _and he sng-, he passed over), ownership gested visit over, to give religiou-s - There was certainly might be ailowed tn · ;take that Ministers the schools.• after the propo�ed aU of instmctiom.

•suggestion no agrcernem.


( for of schools ·on· the confiscation ··to)• \Vhat it would hav.c-amounted Apart from either that is or on Mr� Bumham's ga� to .religious bcmg unacceptable unrealistic; entirely imagine the confusion-· been caused hy deno�ination' of children that w1Yt1ld "representatives have - of each 1 going to · imtrnct group-s instruction.

wa,, in.

a school:" that suggestion for· your readers can with .rc­ p,JR.

RAT] him.selL to control relifdous affiliation.


·we are fighting denominational which be on the hasis of merit.

n>l1::, in the ,ipp,irn�-­ nf teachers It is con­ that the.

basis of pro­ Here.

tbe hon.

Member was con­ trJdicting On the one hand� he should be said the Church Authorities the ��choois; �1linw1:!d on the 0ther h::nd he feels the Government must iil.J.y i.i.
mv1� positiv'"'- ment and promotion should the essence of the trol of schools motion should be This i� the principle today ---·-a principle whereby a person can get appoint ed in a school only is a member of that denomination.

Member said that teachers in the can only get schools denominational promotion that denomination.

Friend say, originally.

and learned statement.


keeoing with this that the can i-im� t;as come when Government role in the appoint­ play a more positive ment, promotions and dismissals of be.

based on ----promotion to teachers com­ person's moral liahility petence rather than ad- 1:crc•nce can unly be hrought ,,bout and promotion of pri­ of aprointmcnt nm.rv .

school teachers is changed from the present a� a teacher t0 :my pr1rtktlar if they are also members if the �:ystec:1 religion?
This How can my hon.

and on a if he The one.

of in In a ictter nublished in The Daily sent to the Press hy Fr.

F. C. he Chronicle.

Fenn, S.J.

and dated 7th August.

said: •sir, of di:!nomi­ schools) of a P.P.P.

that "at the conference rnec.ting Mr. Burnham i� stated In your report held on Tuesday, to have said ( on the que.stion na.tional with the Minister� during 1953. it was agreed denomination schools live to the !

;tructions according ation."


to give religious to each denomin­ <>f all denominatiom that each should send in­ a rcprescnta­ at that tnee�inr., and J I was present without c·an state no 'iuch ··agreement" Burnham bad said that it wa1' the inten at.

Mr. was arrived fear of contradiction that This is what Fr.

Fenn repom that the Minister of Education does the present propose to do as regards.

structions?

Minister of Education religjous in� proposed.

What instruc-r I have said that religious gi).


!¢tl" in· are concerned.

instructions There would be no disturbance would.

continuo to he · .denomina­ I ;proposed.

:that is of the; type which.

l given by tions.

ev�ry school.

t10naJ now being given in denominationa shall be exclusively schools belonging to that denomination.

teachers to such a system?

Where is the objection would be con­ Religious instructions tinued.

teachers so far as existin!!.


are going to be paid their full T cachers ns would be instructio Secular salaries.

see no change except that the �iven.

I Church Authorities would not be able to control and promotion the apJX>intrnent of teachers.

happen.

And why· do they wish appoint the teachcr5, wish tn poses and, :1s one Minister· of Religion the Rev.

Magalee, pr@seJytize This is not the place to proselytize This should be done in the cbildnrn.

the Sundav ,;;chools Churches.

or in the and byways.


Even the Arch­ highways r·ishop irrn.

mcetin.zs tc!·· the Bmirda Green.

fm!hwavs and bvwaY"S as the former Christi:in That is all that is going to to home.

is now e:oine He is going i� th� use the schools for Church has said, thev w in th; schools.

ex¢ept that they the children Teachers near.hi:- d.jd.

cuH U pur­ who condemns politicians hold­ ''903 ,.

ducdtitm 11 TH JANU :R.Y, 961 mdi.

), Bill 804 · The ~provision of education is a for.

'the �State.
'the �State.

It.is a secular question matter.

and it is .• not a matter which falls of the Church.

under the jurisdiction basis Whae heolow.cal •or pllilosoplrical is there for opposition to this Bill?

Jesus said: "Give unto Caesar the things ·that are aesar's," for .. he' separation Stttte.

�st.

Augustine, •.., thers of· e '1:11urch - that there -hould ·be -a-•separation •of ~chur h · and · State.
It is only in this "of the· ·church •way' hat the autonomy and this is the basis · of r he Chmch and 'Fhis is ·supported ·by'St.· Gregory, St. hul .and all the ' ·n he ·function s -an be· resoected · arld· ore, erved.

It is the Fathers··of 'the Church who said that they must yield obedience to the civil power -matters; .

·in -secular · 1 read in�The Ddily Chronicle of some- t'one rom Hthe '�orld ouncil ·of 'Churches rrry and inevitable.

'·the ·changes •'that are necessary -evitab1e?


saying to· re ist not the necess­ Why do they resist ,The e changes have taken and in- and only yesterday plaee.

In other parts of the world the t<Ythe civil <"(Bhurchi fr1y,.elding obeoience 1atit.horitY: ·n ec far mfft.ters.

This is a matter of civil jurisdiction; are going against churchmen · ljunution:-of 1:hcir •o,wn · selv:es•twben they s eek O""r •.

:the ··c.L il power.


and •the an in­ the1 Ghurch the Roman Catholics .and State for Church purposes; of England, the Church of Scotland money; and from 1834 they received.

to build from the local Government schools teaching and to give se-cular the schools, also.

aid in all received of Church.

This the Methodist No.· 19 of 1868 made was ··renewed r from· time to ·In the year ,1859, ,an Ordinance for the salaTies to be giv�n to the Roman.
Catho­ and Scots Clergy to be annual was passed providing the Anglican paid by Government and for grants lic Church and to Di senting hurches including "'Ofclinance time.

Ordinance for Government provision loam; for the erection houses.

It also provided ·ual ·grant for 'th,e· repairs to 'these Grants were made for places of religious worship rentals not yet been been done?

were enterfained people after the slaves were liberated.

and so, in their education, erected.


It is said that great fears of the behaviour to guarantee of parsonage a small ann­ and to provide were paid where churches furniture, and had Why ·had all this house�.

rift and ·industry and stress was to :side.

The fab­ ·wererto .... be taught not ohly •be iaid · on the spiritual ouring-dasses the three R's;--butth .honesty, to recognize .

iety and to ·give due .respect tcrtheir super­ iors.
Jf this ,-was not done, it was said, there would be not only indolence and degradation n relapse but crime and Tiot and their place in soc­ into ·barbarism.

of the .

..Eve_ryooe admits , ·the contribution nnder .. which hat contribution ,made by the ._Church; ,but the explan­ .. ation.has also to be�gi;ven-of.

the circum­ , stances .was1made.

It is an ,historiG_al fact that the ,-Churches .were -paid by the British ,'Government and, iterally, _ Government, country as slav:e.s, ,.and .. men.tally.

.
.

•received .money; the Anglicans .money and , ,the ongregationalists .

..rocei(Vedt tmo.re .

..re earch-- received also money.

Lhave1heen doing-some by the local ·to keep .. the ,:people of 1his .

The Roman Catholics This is the historv of the Church in was not in­ with Christianity, Guiana.

Slavery British bolh intellectually compatible Rev.

Mortier, ister of the nineteenth so said that slaves Yet so many ·institution •of the people speak of 'the proud record Church.
said the Min­ Methodist century.

He al­ were not fit for the ·of ·marriage.

a leading Mr. Speaker : Congregationalists!

Are you ure?

1.1 r.· i: Y�, JSir.

IBy· the.

erid of Around 1850 there was a struggle ... the , econd , decade .

of _the nineteenth �century, money ·was provided of in this countrrregarding the question continue to be whether schools ..should ·by :the 805 Edu<'afron 11TH JANUARY, 1961 (Amdt.i Bill 806 jMR.

RAl] denominational.

ment school:-;.


nmnin�itional or should be Govern­ Thi: advocat...!>, of d1.> schools said: the wa!Js of the school room.

Except 1he reading of the Lord's Prayer every morn­ ing.

at 1)p1;ning cdw::.1.tion it seems to them that should be purely s<:;:ular.

They took the view that education 1i:ould b-s.: purely secular.
We could sec the cffe,:1 ,)f �chou1 dc,wn of th:tl in the knowlcdAc ( cx­ "We wish to see them :rained of their moral practically n::vcrcncc to for ail whom pro­ slavcs) and .social honesty, respect and Christian vidence has placed in H '-Ur,t;rior 1.ion <luties---taught to love sobriety, comll • authority, we would of ra;-:� ·• •Y,J:· for Wi$c purpose'>, again•,t a is a crirn�: of th:: far from ·foe .3,s;,;ump­ They should ndep,endence the di1,s:-rs1tie•; thev shun servilitv in the breaking tlv.
:m which teaches; to discipline falsr i di;-,i-;ll'.,:-d tion ·of life imposed and \\·hile keep them equally tion of a false equality.

learn that id!cne5, higher law as wen as an infradi1Jn social which tcllt; day is C'qually to lnhot!r j,_ hononrah!e consequently.

to ,·,�rn hi'-hr,:,w. lv: w�ts one of !ho,;� d:,y idle".

explicit during the sixth: t ·in rcquiri;;!!


h:n indn;;;tn, duty, and that 1he hi,; maintc:nance commandment them to keen holv th-: srventl; hefr1re (3od am� rnan �11:.l none should frd ;ishamcd t,y 1!

;e :,;,,,e;i; !h;:1 t:nw:,:,kint: but rnther in :u:·k them .

:,f It is proposed today that religious appointed should continue by the Governor said in denomina-­ but in l 850 the Commis­ instruction tional schools.

sioners that it should not be given in schools.


W1..: have travelled .I have already recounte d the various arguments It seems tk1t the time is rioe.

aod some­ thing should be done in this matter.

very far since then.

they have put forward.

No argwncnt has bcl!n adduced bv this Bill to justify the Dcnominat':.

those who oppose viickcd discrimination which i.s being practised by the Christian ions.

Why is it that they discriminate among themsrlves?

th.

!rhood of God that they speak of?


Why do the f\ nglicans the Catho­ lics, the Lutherans the Westkv- ans and so on?

nate arrainst again.st of man and the fatherhood Where is the bro­ discrimi wl,,1 '',1 md :dl llv ·this i� exactlv dual control are repeating today, but they are u�ing modem language.

what the �dvocates of In 1850 the Governor.

Henrv the following Barkly.

Esq.. appointed C:ornrnis,ion to consider thf� matter: Mr. A. D. V, Gorr Net'>dli1L Member the Court of Polky·•·•--Chairman.
Inspector of Schc,ob Mr. George Denni,;, Mr. WHl.iam Mr. Daniel Bia.fr, .Mr.

W. B. Pollard.

David�on.

San;:eon-Gcncral.

A-:count:tnl Financial ( acting, .

Thi,.,: is what appeared in their RC·· iort: Although we suggested to the de­ for the says it is against Canon nominations the appointment of a single Schools Control Committee whereby teacht�rs would be interchangeable mnong their own denominations purpose of appointment and promotion, it was r?jeded by them.
His Grace 1 he A rchhishop Lmv to do so.

The Roman Catholic Bi1.

:hop nf Georgetown fere with the very good rehtion the\· have with their teachers.

f asked them whether thev wc,uld ;urree to a common sy1lahu1s teaching in schools?

They are unable to ar:;ree on fundamen­ tal hasic things.

<'.f.!T,?

f<)r religic)us They said it was not possible.

e among themselves.· and thev are u nable to says it will inter­ the ·-,eriom: ·The CiU?.
'>li.on of the mode of educa­ in the various schooh ,,ttention of your Upon mature refiectioa th,: prejudices of th� in the communions tion to be ·pursued has engaged Commissiorn:n. and consultin� diffe:·ent Colony, of a general 1isting upon religion,; Chri;;tion scheme of edm.

:ation by in .. within instrnction th-:y would not imperil the su.
::cc.�.s While they profess to condemn ra­ cd r1p;1rthcid practising religious schools in British in South Africa t hey are _ apartheid m the Guiana These are 807 Education 11 TH JANUARY, 1961 (Arndt.)

Bill 808 denom­ necessary record, and public position Scots Body.

Is this He is is due to his religion.

Some people have tried to make and there is nothing or his work.
The of the edu­ in schools be­ They have been enjoying for so many years to resist the people who are in charge cational system in primary this country.

They smnu exposed fore this Council opinion of this country.

a privileged that they continue changes.


personal against his character only reason why he has not been given promotion a Hindu, but he could very well, for that matte·r, have been a Mohammedan, or a member of some other religious ination other than the one in which he is now employed-a not a shame on the educational system of this country, issue.

This is not a re­ this a religious first Some people have tried ligious issue.

Training to make this a racial issue.

This is not not yet been appointed issue.


People have sought to a racial of a school?

make charges Education Some say that I am a non-Christian, partment, and that is why I am against ant teacher.

Juniors schools.

head of him, and it is to the credit of Mr. Burnham, other teachers get at the Christian trying this case to my notice.

in 1953?

Was Sir Charles tell ,he Council Chief Justice, trying being taken in this matter.

ches?

Was Mr. Hammond or the Com­ missioners to appointed get at the Churqhes?
were members to says that I am trying Was he Churches.

to get at the Christian Officers in the Education De­ but he is only a senior have gone far a­ ChurcQes Mayor, a to get at the Chur­ I am happy to that remedial steps are My hon.

and learned Friend, I am very sorry to find that my College so many years ago has me personally.

in an examination of the Christian in 1850 trying that a teacher Those people Christian religion.
against assist­ that they have brought who came at the Teachers' His contemporaries as a headteacher are The hon.

Member for New Am­ suggested that I was pursuing a the abo­ Who recommended sterdam vendetta.

lition of dual control only recommended schools.

difficulties the principal do qualified and experienced they de­ not always get the promotion serve.

in 1953?

I have of S 1 the take-over I have indicated the basic One of system.
of the present is that the most defects teachers When the Teachers' Training Coll­ Mr. Tello, I am going to refer to a teacher in 1928, there was a examination in for places I am sorry the hon.

Nom­ is not here, ege was started competitive the College.

inated Member, because he knows very well.

I am told that Mr. in the entrance Seecharran came first After two years of instruc­ amination.
tion he gained first place in the first batch of teachers but up at the College, to this day be is only a senior in· a Scots school.

teacher faithfully and well; I have seen his He has served ex­ assistant way to country has deserted or abandoned with me in this-in the Member for Georgetown I feel that education-he an under-de­ ser­ is a most important by the Governmen:t. hon.

Friend Central his own case.

To use his own words, "he It grieves has done so very shamelessly."
me because agree.s veloped vice to be provided We have been asked in a general build more schools.

eague the Minister pointed out, it is not merely a question Build­ buildings.

of constructing ing more schools would not prevent Chur�h Bodies from withholding motion from teachers to their denominations.

from prac­ stop Religious Denominations tising this type of discrimination.

other words, educational not merely to build more to refO'fm the we are trying sysitem in this country and schools.
who do not belong We want to of N aturnl Resources As my hon.

Coll­ school pro­ In It is true that the Archbishop said to me: "Why don't you build more Government schools and employ 01;1ly non-Christians?"

suggest- sible gentleman in that position a respon­ Imagine 809 Education l 1 TH ,JANUARY, 1961 810 ( Arndt.)

Btll funds which is not on the cause it is not a Hindu school.
l would be happy to learn of any school built with public list, so that r can put it in the schedule primary There �ir(: no Mohammedan My hon.

schools in this country.

charges are therefore incorrect.

Friend·s Christian teachers !MR.

RAI] ing that a Minister of the Government �hould take public funds, build more schools and exclude from them!
I told him there and then that, as a Minister I could not take schools people because That is exactly what the people and the Mjnister are complaining of Education about.

He did not press the matter any Those are some of the sug­ further.

gestions of the Government, public funds!> build faiths.

of their religious and discriminate from time to time.

with what they have.


we build more schools and leave the as it is, but that we The should Denominations Is there not something wrong when some people advocate that we should leave the present system should now build more schools?

for Georgetown Central hon.

Member sought Hindu ,,chnols while I was trying ro bring about a reformatfo sent system of dual control which affected to introduce n in the pre­ schools.

Christian by giving of schools a system them grants.
to make out that 1 was assisting mentioned a Hindu n The hon.

Member for Georgetow against other school at Central Kitty known as the Rama Krishna Dhar­ mic Sabha.

This school has not yet bee-n paid its gmnt.

It.

was appr�ed by the Education iast year of which His Grace the Archbishop the Bishop of Ge.orgetown The Governing Body of this school m writing that.

an unc.krtaking has ��iven on � embarks Government whci1evcr poHcy to take over schools, 11011 would be pre.pared school, the Government.
<?otnmlttee to hand over the and are members.

!he Qrg;;u.liz.a- This Society was running a Nurseey from 1956 --the year before.

the assumed office £chool Government was promised that if it were to enlarge the Nurserv primary grant.

school to a full--fle<lg it would he gi\\:n sc:hool e<.i a --and it I t has been suggested that and submit it to the cnntrol of There are only two Hindu Primary in the country: one at Reliance, Schools at Cove and John.
These and the other schools wern granted aid in 1959 before These the policy was adumbrated.

schools were put up from private funds and not Government funds.

:d1001 at Reliance has a Roman Catholic true to suggest heen adumbrated :my non-Christ -:-.choo] It is not has that since this policy to 1 have given grants as its headteacher.

has been included in this list be- ian schools.

or that any The ADJOURNMENT Mr. Speaker : L think we \, ill have to take it that you have more to say.
take the adjournment no\v.

I Mr. Rai : Yes.

Sir.

Mr. Speake.r journed January.

: Council is now ad­ until tomon"Ow, the 12th of at two o'clock in the afternoon.