Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698068595087.pdf (Guyana)
'( SECOND LECISlATIVE COUNCIL (Constituted under the British Guiana (Constitution) (Temporary Provisions) Orders in Council, 1953 and 1956).

Thursday, 11th February, 1960 The Council met at 2 p.m.

PRESENT: His Honour Sir Donald Jackson Speaker, Chief Secretary, Hon.

D. M. Hedges Attorney-General, Financial Secretary, Q.C.

Hon.

A. M. I. Austin, C.M.G.

Hon.


F. W. Essex, } ex officio The Honourable Dr, C. B. Jagan -Member for Eastern Berbice .41 (Minister of Trade and Industry) " " B. H. Benn-Member for Essequibo River Resources) of Natural .. " Janet Jagan -Member for Western (Minister Essequibo Health and (Minister of Lab�ur, Housing) ,. "

Ram Karran -Member for Demerara-Essequibo (Minister Works).

of Communications and Mr. R. B. Gajraj ,, W. 0.
R. Kendall ,, R. C. Tello ,, F. Bowman ,, L. F. S. Burnham ,, S. Campbell ,, A. L. Jackson ,, E. B. Beharry ,, S. M. Saffee ,, Ajodba Singh " R. E. Davis ,, A. M. Fredericks Central -Nominated Member -Member for New Amsterdam Member -Nominated River -Member for Demerara -Member for Georgetown -Member for North Western District -Member for Georgetown -Member for Eastern Demerara -Member for Western River -Member for Berbice Member -Nominated Member -Nominated -Nominated -Nominated Berbice North H.1.
M. Hubbard Member ,, A. G. Tasker, Member.

Mr.

I. Crum Ewing - Clerk of the Legislature Mr. E. V. Viapree - Assistant O.B.E.

Clerk of the Legislature.

ABSBNT: The Hon.

B. S. Rai, Minister on leave.

Mr. Jai Narine Singh - Member for Georgetown The Clerk �ead prayers.

of Community South.

Development and Education - � 703 B.G.

Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Amdt.)


Bill 704 MINUTES COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE The Minutes of the meeting of the 10th of held on Wednesday, Council February, 1960, as printed were taken as read and confirmed.

and circulated A.2reed to.

Clause I.

- Short Title.

PAPERS LAID The Minister of Natural Resources,: (Mr. Benn): I beg to lay on the Table the • of Audit on of the Director of the Ham and Bacon Fac­ Report the Accounts tory for the years ended 31st December, 1957.
1956, and 31st December, Clause 2.

- Amendment of Section 2 of Chapter 250.

(Mr. Austin): The Attorney-Genera,'!

the proposed Amend­ in the list of Amend­ I beg to withdraw ment to this Clause ments which has been circulated.

amendment An is not necessary.

Clause 2 passed as printed.

of para­ Clause 3.


- Amendment graph ACQ of Section 4 of Chapter 250. in proposing amendments INTRODUCTION OF BILLS EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE (REMUNERATION (AMENDMENT) BILL The Financial Secretary I beg to give notice of the and First Reading Executive (Remuneration Bill.

1960. and Legislative of Members) ORDER OF THE DAY BILL-FIRST READING it is COUNCILS OF MEMBERS) who, in important that we should be legislation.
Consequently, of a bad rice crop on the economy Rice is one of the on which our Secretary to the has pointed Councils (Amendment) Mr. Fredericks: three major industries economy is almost wholly based.

We are reminded of thi.5 year after year by the hon.

the Financial (Mr. Essex): his Budget Statement, of the introduction effect of this country.

extremely to very careful I submit that the existing does reason put forward by the Minister not justify these Amendments.
The reason he gave was that he would like to provide to be held later this month.

I feel posed Amendments given long before to and Legislative tunity concerned proposed that the whole idea is to limit elections to the Council of the Rice Producers' to rice farmers Association of the millers.

exclm,ion be-­ will result in a conflict who tween millers and rice farmers should jointly of the industry.
Association Ordi• are passed today the logical will be an amendment Rice Marketing of thes� pro· should have been to allow ample oppor­ only, to the This, I fear, of interests If these Amendments to amend the British for study by the people directly "An Ordinance for elections contribute to the progress of Members) Ordinance.
of Section that notice to m� it appears will now re­ 4 of the BILL the consequence The following Bill was read the First time: A Bill intituled: amend the Executive Councils (Remuneration Ordinance, 1953.

BRITISH GUIANA RICE PRODUCERS ASSOCIATION (AMENDMENT) Mr. Sp�ker: Council sume consideration of the Bill intituled: ·'An Ordinance Guiana Rice Producers nance."

Mr. Benn: I beg to move that the Council resolve to itself consider the Bill clause by claooe.

into Committee Agreed to.


Mr. Benn: I am sorry to interrupt.

I do not know if the hon.

Nominated MembeF is speaking on Clause 3.

He in the rice industry.

From Amendments 705 B.G.

Rice Producers11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)

Bill 706 appears to be speaking about amend­ ments generally.

The Chairman: I think he is speak­ ing on Clause 3. engaged in the rice industry persons be able to elect whom they want on the Council, millers or manufacturers.
whether they are rice farmers, will I was trying to wants me to confine my re­ Mr. Fredericks: show the effect of these Amendments - how far-reaching they would be - but if the Minister marks to Clause 3 I will do so.

I think it would have been the correct him to state clearly intention, and I would have helped him along if he had only made it clear.

As he wants to limit my remarks I will try to meet him more than half way, with your permission, thing for Sir.
what is his over-all The Chairman: ov-er this Legislature.

I am presiding Mr. Fre®ricks: Sir.

permission", I said "with your Mr. Fredericks: asked in the debate not to p.roceed The Mi.nister but �at is exactly what he is do­ me earlier further, ing now.

Mr. Benn: I say that another mis­ take ha,s crept into the Bill and I will ask for an amendment.

Mr. Fredericks: The Minister the· Committee should have informed before.

The Chairman: That is really with the situation.


This is a Bill If it is to amend something which it would save playing which you want to get through.

intended would correct us a lot of time if he would say what the mistake is.

a mistake, The Chairman: However much the Minister not stop you, you can go ahead.

might like to limit you, if I do Mr. Fredericks: I have to know before I can withdraw what he intends my amendment.
Mr. Fredericks: Before the Minis­ with his Amendments that the word "pr oducers" by the word "farmers", ter proceed-s would suggest be replaced which would more or less give him what he wants in paragraph (c) of Section Chapter 250.
4 of I Mr. Benn: I said that the intention millers there­ ary to remove from the Coun­ can be elected; is not to exclude cil, and that millers fore it would be unnecess the definition ducers" further amendment, (b)of Clause 2 of my amendments amended in order to remove the pro­ vision "who shall be a rice farmer."

of the term "rice pro­ 4.

I said crept into the from (c) of Section that a mistake and I intended to ask that be The Chairman: You have no ob­ jection word "procedure"?
to paragraph (c) except for the Mr. Fredericks: No, Sir.

The Minister of Trade and Industry Mr. Benn: I am afraid that that is ought of the Bill.

I did say, not the intention when I was speaking on the Second Read­ ing, that one or two Amendments to have been made, and that another mis­ take crept into the Amendments which were proposed.
ments paragraph "one member mer)", but the intention election ducers' to the Council of the Rice Pro­ Association All In the list of Amend­ (b) of Claus<:: 4 refers to (who shall be a rice far­ to rice farmers.

Association had re­ but because of the represen­ that the Bill to Government (Dr. Jagan): It is true to say that the B.G.

Rice Producers' commended be amended to pmvide for a Farmers' Association, tation made by the Members opposite, Government their wishes.
and which are not excluded completely, are that manufacturers would be entitled the Council tion.

has decided to accede to Some of the points raised, to become elected to or to the District and landlord� Associa­ is not to restrict 707 B.G.

Rice ProducerJiiTH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Amdt.)

bill 108 Mr. Chairman, Mr. Jackson: made a point yesterday desire unwise.

we that the afternoon, this Bill was very to rush through as it ap­ the term "rice farmer" explain pears under Oause 2 (b) on.
the sheet of amendments?

of the definition, which states lawfully but not the second I understand occupied by him."

the first part part " .

.

.

or which is otherwise The Chairman: That was yesterday afternoon.

We are now on today.

Mr. Jackson: Yes, Sir.

The hon.

said that now is to in­ and it would be inter­ to hear the Minister of Trade and Industry Minister this is an attempt to meet th� views ex­ pressed on this side which bad not been fully met.
The intention clude other people, esting amendments ing to our wishes, time to study them, because that there are some othl}r mistakes when them to the Ordinances we relate ing the rice industry.

say what he made as a result of acced­ and let us have some we may find govern­ The Chairman: That has been out.

Clause knocked ed in the Bill, was passed.


2, as has been print­ Mr. Davis: I wish to move an amendment, to the Oerk: an amendment a copy of which I now hand to Oause 4. got The Cha,irman: We have not to that yet.

If there is nothing else, I will put the �endment.

that the word "producer" of Section nance should be replaced "farmer".

in the first line by the word 4 ( c) of the Principal Ordi­ The question is, The Chairman: The hon.
Minister said that some mis­ of Natural Resources talces had crept into the amendment.

What may save us some time is if he would tell us what those mistakes are� or something be typographical they may like that.

Mr. Fredericks: explanation Resources, · Amendment.

of the Minister that I ask leave to withdraw Sir, in view of the of Natural Oause 3 passed as printed.

Mr. Benn: One of the rnistalces on page 2, at Clause 9.

There ap- pears: is 5 of Chapter 250.


Clause 4.-Amendment of section Provisions) "The British Guiana Rice Producers' Ordi­ (Special Association nance, 1959, is hereby amended by the substitution 1960' and '15th March, 1960' wherever they occur of the words '31st March, 1960' and '30th April, for the words "15th February, 1960' respectively."
That should read: "The British Guiana Rice Producers' Provisions) Ordi­ (Special Association nance, 1959, is hereby amended by the substitution 1960' and '15th March, 1960' wherever they occur of the words '30th April, and '31st May, 1960' respectively."

for the words '15th February, 1960' The Attorney-General: I beg to (2) and and set Bill will be replaced to Mem­ to Oause 4, in the and circulated to a small variation.
mQye an amendment form cyclostyled bers, subject The effect is that subsections (3), of Section 5 as proposed out in the printed by subsections sheet, styled ''who shall be a rice words in parenthesis in the first line of (2) (b), farmer" which is to be left out to meet the hon.

Nominated point.
Nominated point.

The Amendment ( 2) and ( 3) on the cyclo­ with the exception of the Member, Mr. Fredericks' reads: In other words, the 30th of April will take the place of 31st March and the 31st of May will talce the place of the 30th of April.

Mr. Fredericks: Before we proceed, Sir, would the hon.
the Attorney-General "(a) by the repeal of subsections ( 3), ( 4 ), (5) and (6) and the substitu­ tion therefor sections - of the following (2), sub­ '(2) The members of the Council shall be - (a)the Director of Agricul­ ture or bis duly author­ ized representative; 709 B.G.

Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)


Bill 710 (b)one member of the Com­ mittee of each District Association appointed in accordance with the pro­ visions and of the regulations, elected ( c)four other persons by the members ap­ pointed under the provi­ sions of paragraph of this subsection meeting held in pursu­ ance of the regulations.

( b) at a a drafting matter to put the subsections of this long and complicated proper section order.

in a line.
in a line.

My Mr. Davis: I beg to move an 3 to Clause 4 (a) subsection of the word "six" for Amendment by the substitution the word "four" in the fourth reason is that I have based this Amend­ Bill No.

5 ment on what was the original which was laid over.

Since then, the hon.

Minister Amendment the time, I did not quite fully appreciate it although out the words "who would be rice farm­ ers"; so my Amendment on what was the originally Amendment to the Ordinane:e. has moved this other changes.
based proposed he told me that he would take with certain is really At subsection under ( 3)If any person appointed (b) of the preceding paragraph ceases to be a member of the Committee of a District Association, ment as a member of the Council shall cease to have effect without to anything done by him in pur­ suance thereof, and the Committee of the District was a member shall appoint members in his place."
of which such person Association previously prejudice his appoint­ another of its of - for the beginning (b) of Clause 4 as follows By the substitution paragraph which is in the circulated sheet - "(b) by the repeal of subsections (8) and (9) and the substitution therefor of the fol­ lowing subsections", which are sub­ sections Bill; and by the insertion (c), which is the third amendment Clause 4 -"(c) by re-numbering section in the of paragraph in sub­ (8), (9) and (10) printed (10) as subsection (11)".
I also wanted to move the insertion the words "be" and "a" in the between fifth line, of the words "a landlord rice lands shall also be".

or a manufacturer of rice who • of The Chairman: Which one are you talking about?

Your first Amendment 3, line 4, as printed - affects paragraph that the word "six" be substituted for the original Amendment a landlord facturer member of a District word "four".

)S: "each of whom shall be of rice lands or a manu­ of rice and who shall also be a Your second Association."
it waJS a short time ago of replacing of Trade The point about this Amendment to by the hon.

Minister for "rice farmer", in is that, apart from the matter which was referred and Industry "rice producer" found when the Bill was drafted the printed cated arrangement quite reflect Producers was gone into a second time by them, the request to make the intention clearer.

Association.
Association.

the intentions form, this extremely compli­ did not, as drafted, of the Rice When the draft my Amendment Amendment by the Mr. Davis: What I think would be so as to make it less con­ to more desirable fusing, is to re-word what is now the latter hon.

Mini-ster.

given the vary that Amendment which I circulated to the to this: that the Amendment Amendment, of Natural section as laid over by the Minister to Clause 4, sub­ I can do that if I am I would like to opportunity.
Resources, 3 be amended as follows: "Six other persons came that it should be re-drafted of the Amendment (11)", The new Amendment (c), which is subsection (10) as we are no subsection "by re-numbering subsection longer deleting (10); it remains then the new isubsection will become subsection is because the original in the Ordinance and (10) in the Bill (11).

It is purely shall be a landlord manufacturer be members of a District· of rice and w'ho shall also )".
Association (each of whom of rice lands or a My reasons for submitting this are these: I think it is ele­ Amendment mentary and quite necessary that all categories of rice farmers or rice 711 B.G.

Rice Producers 11 TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)

Bill 712 4 a manufacturer - call them what you will [MR. DAVIS] producers - should be able to have a say in this Ordinance Statute.

by That is important.


and to be supported will feel that they have a say on the Council of the Association to make their contributions try as they have done in past years.

and the right to the indus­ Mr. Fredericks: I would like to should be miller of "rice pro­ The day may to the hon.

he said so the Member's he may change bis that ·the Minister I had remarked to the definition of Trade and Industry or producers accordingly.
but the point made by the is and I think it is an essential that all categories the hon.

Nominated I observe to rise, and I can antici­ Minister that it was he who first gave to what is now known as the recognition Rice Millers Association; other day and I agreed with him entirely.

My point is that he is not bound to do so by Statute, part of the organization of rice farmers recognized come when, perhaps, mind about the recognition of what may now be regarded, mere trade union.
The behaviour of the members may cause him to frown on their association as such; so we cannot only legislate for a period, there may come a day when his success­ or, if and when that ever occurs, may not care or be inclined to the Rice Millers the rice millers will not have the right by Statute to be heard.

It is for this reason that I think it might be well to have this integrated in the Ordinance.

support Amendment.
support Amendment.

is very anxious pate more or less that he wants to draw attention ducer" which includes or a landlord, hon.

Nominated Member, that it is quite possible turer, or landlord to get on the Rice Marketing ing to the fact that he may not be elected to a District There­ fore I would like to support my friend's argument, but I am inclined to go a bit further.
Just as it is necessary to have a manufacturer or a landlord I think the rice industry by having per­ sons on the Board who are totally uncon­ nected with the industry.

Therefore I would suggest an amendment to afford recognition graph (a) (ii) of the hon.

Member's Association.

Then Amendment by the substitution words "four of whom shall be landlords of rice lands or manufacturer•s of rice, and who shall be members of a District Association."

Mr. Davis, that a manufac­ may not be able Board <.
'W­ Association.

could benefit by some, as a to para­ of the as Mr. Davis: I accept that Amend- The Minister of Trade and Industry ment.

is fric­ to the ten­ of Tenure) Ordinance but that is not the (Security the landlord, to the fact that ther·� rice farmer.s, has referred tion between on the one hand, and millers and landlords on the other.

I have heard it said that the Rice Farmers secures case.

In my view H offers definitely greater measures of security ants.
It was framed with that intention, and it does just that.

I accept ment by the Minster of Natural that it is the intention to reduce ber of District 12.Therefore, will elect six landlords point I wish to stress farmers charge of the industry through their weight of numbers.
Amendment ion that all categories the state­ Resources the num­ Associations from 13 to 12 rice farmers as such but the However, with the I am of the opin­ of rice producers or millers, is that the rice will have, in effect, complete proposed the purpose districts to per­ to 2nd, secondly, Dr. Jagan: I think there is a great about the purpose of As I said pre­ of this Amendment to give representation deal of confusion these Amendments.
viously, is, firstly, sons in certain make the Council of the Rice Producers' Association representative of the views of the people in the districts.

Amendments proposed ment does not insist should become a rice farmers' organiza­ tion as such, because appreciate themselves lord or miller the point that the rice farmers may want a benevolent that the Association In the today Govern­ to represent them.

one can very well land­ I think Members are confusing the Association with the Rice Producers' 713 B.G.
Rice Producers11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)

Bill 714 interests Board, because it is being proposed they talk It is on the Rice Board where millers' in dispute, if one may so de-s­ that one can appreciate for rice Rice Marketing about representation.

Marketing are really cribe it, because the Board fixes not only prices which it purchases but also the minimum price for padi.
In fixing the minimum price for padi the Board allows is called the miller's one can appreciate the millers sentation But one can argue that even on the Rice Marketing represented, fixed for padi is only a guide.

should be to be members of from the Rice Develop· the Council shortly, by Government that provision made for three millers the Board, one ment Company and two othens is hoped, will come from the Rice Mill­ ers' Association.
There is no provi­ sion in the existing ler to be on the Board, so that what Gov­ ernment ter than what exists In other words we are trying Rice Producers' body concerned rice.

If millers to the Association will sit there by right, indirectly far bet­ is something at the present time.

to make the a producers' Association with the production of are elected and landlords Ibey or for what margin.
So that that -they should have repre­ because the minimum price on the Rice Marketing Board the millers may not be chose� directly by the farmers.

by the farmers is proposing the point of view of Ordinance Board.

for any mil­ who, it On the other hand, I can see the on �he Rice being put forward that millers Board.
There is no such pro­ in the Ordinance, argument should be represented Marketing vision is providing millers to be represented So there should be no fear that the Gov­ ernment, in introducing is trying lords and millers.

legislation to take away rights from land­ and Government which will permit on the Board.

this Amendment, We are dealing here only with a ' organization; what is in the as such.

We, of rice producers marketing at all.


producers interest are not dealing with We want to get into the Council people or of the farmers, who are representative persons like technical of the Director whom the farmers may want, Agriculture to impose but here Membens are seeking on the Council or manu­ landlords facturers.

Of course there is this diffi­ culty which I do not think Members have looked into.
They say that six persons, four of whom shall be landlords or manu­ facturer,s District guarantee members of a District cause -they need not be that proposition work.

of rice, shall be members cf a Association, but there is no will be that those persons is fallacious and cannot to the confu­ the Mr. Chairman, in his Resources Mr. Fredericks: of Natural remark.s referred this side of the Table about the Minister opening sion 1m purpose of the Amendment.

sure the hon.
sure the hon.

Minister Association, be­ and clearly- confusion.

el�ted.

So that perhaps than he does-that we would have saved a lot of argument this afternoon bad he stated quite clearly what was the purpose ment.

I can as­ that there is no We are saying more clearly of the Amend­ One Member suggested that if we here it would per­ on the getting that we do not allowed two members mit of two Ministers Board.

I can assure him intend on the Rice Marketing the hon.

Member can remove that irom him.


his mind if that is what is worrying in future to have Ministers sitting Board, so that I would also like to assure that in the Bill to amend the Rice Mar­ keting Ordinance, which will come before Members As I said earlier, he should have changed the word "producer" into he said at a later "farmer"-actually stage that he intended later on, so my changes unnecessary.

should be the Rice Farmers' Association in the Ordinance.

title.
title.

He will have the backing if he changes it and calls it by Council name.

its more appropriate to change it would have been Now he is saying that it I agree: change the of this 71S B.G.

Rice Producers11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)

Bill 716 [MR. FREDERICKS] the needs of He said it represented manufac­ the people in the Districts-the turers, This confirms my fear that it would affect Section Ordinance.

the landlords 4 of the Rice Marketing and the farmers.
I was not here when the Minister of Natural the Second Reading- Resources made his speech on the manufacturing stage.

There is no separation B.G.

Sugar Producers' Associatioa-in is made in !.

'espect which representation from the planting of this commodity to the mar­ through of keting be­ from the planters, the manufacturers is looked cause the entire upon industry whole.
The Associ­ as one integrated ation takes the approach which affects would affect the manufacturing the planting, that anything of sugar and so on.

of rice, and hence the general Similarly, that which affects the of rice would affect the the manufacturers The only reason for doing so is because I do not see the reason for the as manufacture planting industry.

desire to separate well as the landlords.

I suggest lords are supposed to be weal.thy people, and so are the manufacturers.
gument may be: "We must try to dis­ from the these two categories associate farmer.

We don't need real peasant manufact landlords they belong believes we don't need urers politically, politically."

Why?

Because class, to the capitalist in the ownership of property.

which The ar­ land­ Mr. Benn: To a point of order.

The hon.

Member is saying things were not tSaid, and now he is say­ ing that he was not here.
that certain The Chairman: He said he was not on the the Minister spoke present when Second Reading, he is not and therefore aware of what he said.

Surely he is per­ fectly in order.

Mr. Fredericks: As far as I am I am quite willing but the Government to help the concerned, must Government, say what they want.
From· this Amend­ 4 of the ment it was clear that Section Rice Marketing must be Ordinance changed, and the Rice Marketing tive for the rice farmers' If the Minister I can visualize Board as a co-opera­ says so, we will know.

benefit alone.

ultimately In fact, as the Government sees it, ' the title of the B.G.

Rice Producer.s it should condemned; stands Association no doubt be the B.G.

Padi Producers' Association.

an Ordinance better.


I feel that if we introduce to that effect it would be this Association Mr. Beharry: I rise to support the moved by Mr. Davis.

The of Trade and Industry has just and manu­ landlords would mean Amendment Minister stated that to include facturers in there would be no guarantee landlords elected.

sire of the Minister to include them, if there is no guarantee that they would be you cannot is wrong, then the elected.

of it.
of it.

amendment I say that this Bill has been designed or manufacturers That explains that e-itheT would be de­ amendment the burning merely The Chairman: go back.

The Chairman: You can move an to the Short Title.

Mr. Beharry: Mr. Chairman, I am making a criticism.

Well, I am afraid If you say the title is an short course .

I emphasize landlords purposely-and 'purpo sely' to isolate manufacturers.

two most important modi ties in this country.


An Associ­ ation represents the word as well as are the com­ Sugar and rice agricultural man, this Amendment manufacturers should Rice Producers the entire Mr. Beharry: You see, Mr. Chair­ is asking that as well as owners of land a say in the yet we find that of having Council; Ordinance is named after the the sugar industry-the be deprived ' 717 B.G.

Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)

Bill 718 ·< .J remain in this economic change our outlook.
mess unles.s we cannot As I see it, the rice industry any other industry until en­ progress as terprising individuals tor join hands with the ordinary peasant and they move forward toget!ier as mem­ bers of the same industry.

in the private sec­ do· not have I find it very difficult and manufacturers and owners of from rice to manufacturers But as I said, it is purposely do not have many rice producers.

disassociate land on which rice is planted farmers.
being done: landlords votes, many votes-I mean political The industry, matter to every single in this Council, progress, ual that plays a part in this industry, whether should the production votes.

is what should individual be included of rice.


he be a manufacturer and if the �dustry is to or every individ­ and so have a ,say in every section however, sitting or not, As I understand, You sectors there, and the ownership word - "pro­ Mr. Tello: I am sup�rting the it is a I am satisfied of land, the culti­ I see it entailing of rice and its manufacture.

Amendment because contribution to justice.

this is a very important ducer".


and the occupation vation have three definite where the rice producers sector already by the hon.

Miniister of Natural sources for the majority being rice farm­ ers; and it is only fair that the other two sectors - that is, the owners and occu­ piers of rice lands, and especially manufacturers - should in the farming provision is made in the Amendment offered are more in numbers, Re­ the rice be repreGented.

The hon.
The hon.

Minister of Natural Re­ pointed themselves into a voluntary you aisk the rice farmers sources out that what is neces­ .

sary is to have rice millers on the Rice Board.

I quite agree with Marketing him, but as long as there is the -statutory provision for the association to speak for the rice producer, it is incumbent upon the Government to give the opportunity for expression of op!filon to all scctc•rs.
It is either organize ganization and, probably, let the landlords take the same example, or repeal the entire Ordi­ nance from the Statute Book.

But as long as there is legislation-as long as you are going to make law the industry-you try as a whole.

I am certain correct made in tion of all sectors.


mind-- mu.st look at the indus­ that I am provision should be for the· representa­ in my in saying that the Ordinance like that of the rice millers It is definite to protect to or­ The Chairman: You s,ay you are in your mind, but did you look definite at the Ordinane,e ?

The Minister gave the guarantee that no fear need be held that he will be on the.

Rice Marketing Board.

But who can deny that the shadows of Ministers might be there.
So when such a guarantee it is just to try and put forward an argument th�t would sat­ isfy the less well-informed.

is given, I do not see why it has been argued Board, Why permit must but they that manufacturers The Board is a marketing by the Minister sit on the Rice Marketing must not sit on the Rice Producers' Council.

ganization.

on the Board and not on the Rice Pro­ ducers' and not a marketing arrangements which deals with marketing.

I say it is time we stop playing politics with this in­ dustry.
for him to sit on a Board Council?

He is a manufacturer yet you make agent, manufacturers or­ Since the producers do not want the and landlords, to include ti.me and history manufacturers it would mean that landlords and manufacturers are not going to be elected.

Why is there not a desire them ?

As I said before, my contention ship of property wealth are not considered philosophically, in our country the basis of the poverty day.
This is their philosophy, and it is because of their philosophy that this is in this economic country mes.s and will of too sacred, to be right.

The owner­ and the ownership and it is to­ of our people will prove 719 B.G.

Rice Producers t'lTH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Amdt.)


Bill 1'.lO Mr. Tello: It would appear that likewise those who drafted the first Ordinanc thought have in Chapter 250: " 'rice producer' becau�e this is what they e assigned to it in section Marketing Ordinance, time to time"; has the meaning 2 of the Rice as amended from and "rice producer" rice farmer and manufacturer means landlord, .

The Chairman: Nothing more?

Mr. Tello: the whole thing.


I do not want to read It says: " 'rice producer' means- (a)any landlord of rice land within the meaning section of Tenure) of these terms as defined by 2 of the Rice Farmers (Security Ordinance"; The Chairman: Have you looked at that?

Mr. Tello: No, but let me go on: (b)any rice farmer who cultivates his own land or any land let or leased to him or which is otherwise lawfully occu­ pied by him; (c)any manufacturer"; that ,.
over the passage should be made in the Ordin· of It would seem that, from the sion and controversy this Bill.

contributions that have been made this afternoon, there must be some degree of misconception, perhaps some fear.

I have beard many Members saying provision ance for the two categories of rice pro­ ducers, and the land­ lord, to be elected to the Rice Producers Association's Council.
My answer is that provision is there, for it states very definitely, that the rice producers of each district Committee these Committees cil of the Rice Producers from each of shall sit on the Coun­ shall elect their own District and one person the miller namely, Association.

..
..

It is true that in the Rice Producers Ordinance, the term "rice given Ordinance is rebted to the meaning Association producer" to it in the Rice Marketing and, as such, it stands one who is a miller to stand for election cratic process, But I know the fear that some Members have.

to reason or landlord that any­ is entitled to be elected.

and, in the demo­ is entitled They fear that landlords and/or to Poll enough of a District is debate.
to enable him or them to be of landlord of this term 'rice pro­ consideration was given But one must not merely to include the three most import­ All I am saying is that whatever in that particu­ make like that and leave them in these days one must look of these things.

millers might not be able votes from the members Association elected.

statement5 there, because of production-landlord, at the causes and rice farmer.
been the reason one must use such a strong tween the producer, and the miller because, in some cases, ha,s felt that he has been unjustly by the landlord Such wide­ spread accusation in every case, but there are cases where such a charge the definition lar Ordinance, in the definition ducer' ant sectors manufacturer I do not think thiiS should be the subject of a lengthy as long as we ac­ cept what the hon.
Minister Resources told us, that there is no inten­ tion of turning the Rice Producers ciation into a Rice Farmers it is only correct that provision should be made to give the assurance that these three sectors and I am sure those closely connected have sought corded with the application this protectio iin the Hansard has nothing to do It has been the rice farmer would be represented; Association, or landlord?

is justified.
is justified.

I think it is true to say that there who is the farmer, n. · And what is re­ or miller.

of Natural of the law.

I feel, Asso­ would not be correct treated What has for the dissatisfaction, if term, be­ ( and producers who en­ with tenants or are many millers joy many good relations farmers That is because satisfy who bring padi to their mills.

they had been able to those people that they give a fai!l, Mr. Gajraj: I did not expect that there would have been so much discus- L 721 B.G.
Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Amdt.)

Bill 722 return.

I _would categories, urge that these are days in particular, in general.
just and equitable upon this Council when we must urge our people to co­ while trying to with one another operate understanding between all make a better we may so that the various of the in­ move forward in the interest and in the interest dustry But if we were of the country to continue industry us, then we will continue small pressure use their influence in of the country consider by others but which might be considered of the country.
I the interest as against think we must move forward stage of the past and try to get a better understanding amongst to be faced with groups endeavouring what they might to set up small segments that besets or in each problem in the interest our people.

from the in to Ordinance was passed.


Similarly, parts of the in the export of for example, engaged, rice were very mad when the Rice Mar­ keting many people country who had been getting in groups in order to represent the were very much annoyed of rice fanners, when the Rice Producers' was passed.
Ordinance together cause in different Association I know, and I think other Members had been on this issue know, that that the Rice Producers' did not fully meet of the people, whereby of the Rice Producers' Asso­ who have spoken for many years the rice farmers complaining Ordinance Association and aspirations the wishes and we have here a proposal the Council ciation tion by those elected because the districts, the members Ordinance A-ssociations amongst of the Council will enjoy more direct themselves select by the electors under the present of the District who the members of the Association.
appoint electors representa­ in then it is wrong.

In this with their tenants age one must try to build the and of the would-be I know of see, myself-and people who mind-where or landlords of millers I cannot a few cases in are in the category or farm­ nicely living ers would not get enough votes cast for to the District their election If they fail to get those votes, means something democratic confidence those who are to put them i!

]to position.
]to position.

in this Council We have been talking very soon again and we shall be talking and in the about constitutional light of what we all hope to get we have at home in every res­ to build ourselves the additional power we pect to justify hope to get, and it is by means such as these that we must give people tunity larger of an industry to this country.
to serve, group--in this case the interests that is of vital importance an oppor­ not themselves but a reform, leaders Members of this Council must also Rice· Marketing were not introduced and the Rice Producers' Ordinance that both the realize Ordinance ciation by the desire or demand of the people gaged in the rice industry.

legislation and were imposed We know that many people who were Both bits of years ago were passed many Asso­ upon the industry.
en­ at this stage, because it of the members who sit on the of measure by Government will consist member from each body, of the Rice a body of opinion tied to those who in rice production, is a very those electJed Associations to work with others Council of the Association one elected and I think the proposal on the Council to include Association Producers' which is not necessarily are engaged useful enables District Council, not have any direct industry and perhaps and experience, tions in the community, elected better done by themselves.
opinions dustry in the members who are envisaged Amendment which has been moved by the Minister who may in the rice interest knowledge but who, from their their posi­ can help those which could be of use to the in­ conclusions could be sought RC6ources.

from the four of Natural at perhaps members In other words, in arriving than they might have If one were to accept the conten­ tion of my friends, Members, Mr. Davis and Mr. Fredericks, the hon.

Nominated Association.

In the proposals .


before us the - '( 721 B.G.

Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)


Bill 724 who could give for millers and/or land­ then we would be leaving only two open for people to the industry connected [MR. OA.JRAJ] that the number should be increased to six, and that four of the six seats should be ear-marked lords, positions advice themselves and thereby reduce idea by 50 per cent., time assuring sons, who might be millers would not be joined lords who might be elected tricts.
the effectiveness of the at the same without us that the other four per· but who are not with the industry, and land­ by mille!iS from the dis­ or landlords, ,0 of their property­ to be shouted without proof, then be sending our own into the depths of misery and and they will land us of Despond, at large, and our to play up to the public the so-called ideologi­ the world at large, cal differences from we have heard of to say time to time.
If they continue that capital is being driven away, that the are being trampled rights of minorities upon; that those who own property are going to be relieved if these things continue from the housetops we 6hall certainly country Slough all in a worse position job of those who come after make the this Government , and who are going to benefit those who would like to see us disunited.
We want the people of the country to and such benefit can only be benefit, achieved and realize if we get together that the key to the whole situation in the people gether and our own affairs.

lies to­ of this country getting showing that we can manage " than we are.

It will much more difficult ?

It is I think that in the Rice Producers' We we should give an opportun­ tbroug}J. nomination.

a more direct it be Association ity to all who wish to serve to go there, and to do so by means of election.
are moving away in this day and age from appointments We want to give the people say in their own affair;.<;, whether the running of industry or running the Government of the country, and as I urged earlier, categories, such who are in the minority as landlords and millers, how the realize country is moving and whither ing, they would get on better farmer category ent a more united ducers' it is mov­ with the y and pres­ it is my view that if persons Association.
front in the Rice Pro­ in the industr In the case of the· rice industry I am of all categories these two es Book of the Col­ with the object of ts of the rice indus­ and voluntarily the interes our who of the many persons Ordinanc sure that producers would wish to join me in expressing appreciation over the years since Statute were put on the ony, have given of their time and service freely advancing try.
People who are not rice producers have come forward not because them to give of their for all time penalize time, their energy and their ability.

We must make sure that in the same way as we want self-gover in the smaller should nment for this country, try to do the same thing.

area of the industry we and have served-But of Trade and In­ on the subject, they have done so must we regarding proposals with Board.
I the Council upon what the Minister dustry said respect to the Rice Marketing When they are put before and be able to hope I shall be preiSent make my contribution but I would like to say that I have heard made here this afternoon mention is, mess in whic4 this economic and in which it shall remain if ideas such that someone should be brought from as those proposed outside run his continue busin�ss ?

mark on that is that the economic mess, "no."


He would endeavour if there is a mess, is being encouraged his own technique, and perhaps and .to benefit so long as Members and so try to make his business a better citizens to improve to study and to learn, from the errors of the past, will continue to grow on us of this Council and generally endeav- of the country to tell him how he should by the Government to be put before of the country us.
My re­ The answer is definitely, I will not comment at this stage Would any small businessman agree 725 B.G.

Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., ( A.mdt.)

Bill 726 in any of the three categories one.


I look for­ run one and a more prosperous And so in the rice industry ward to the time when those who, like myself, have no :financial interest not qualify of rice producers, leave the industry producers had an opportunity knowledge, and will have qualified to take it by the helm and make a success of it.

bow out and in the hands of the who, by that time, will have gracefully or do Council of the Association?
ris that it wants to make the Rice Pro­ ducers Association farmers' fool the people.

100 per cent.

a rice but that i, Jnly to organization, The answer All the members of the Government because adduced they are not There are no provides Government those people Mr. Tasker: or landlords to improve their Like the hon.

Nomin­ Rice Producers' to say anything; phrase - time will tell, and the Rice Producers' is in your hands."

The is a sinister one.


I borrow the want to tell the rice farmers is "We have given you full control.

millers everything imputation hon.

Member's and these issues give an assurance Members of the present tooth and nail.

The issue will be decided by the people themselves; fools as some people think they are.

will be fought out.

I that we will fight the Mr.


Bowman: There are some of with certain Mem­ Government have an of the Association-nine us who sympathize bers when they support statements, unde11Standing with the Government.

However, I think the argument by the hon.

Member for Eastern Demer­ ara (Mr. Beharry) was clear and con­ cise, especially when he made compari­ son between the Sugar Producers' Asso­ ated Member, Mr. Gajraj, ciation Associ­ as a rice producer financial interest ation.
According to my understanding, rn<>•ter, and I might add that he has the existing been persuasive in putting this case of the Ordinance political the Council industry.

Everything that landlords proper and correct farmers, of view of democratic have a majority the election of properly does the Government want to change that My trouble organizations.

arrangeme there is a serious fallacy and that is why all his remarks the terms of democratic_ processes Association .
But in that respect political bers because do not believe ·they are neces-sarily valid, majority.

The landlords and as he suggested, in the minority, problems Government and here a confusion can be dangerous.

about them.

I am revolving what is the real object.

The Members of the present about minorities; for the masses.

So long as they can satisfy the masses and so ensure their support, the analogy of the and compart;d it with the here.

With reference which mea.rn that the farmers of six members.
Why he said was from the point processes The hon.

Member for Eastern Dem­ introduced It is clear that it wants to make the and for that reaison this of one of our major industries; 100 per cent.

P.P.P.

mem­ does not care anything that is all that matters.

for the millers are they only have regard fall within Association the P.P.P.
caters as a solution for 24 members of Government constituted comes about that and millers in his argument, franchise is that I think as applied franchise do not care to the rice for I and 15 rice in my mind I have no in this for the and nt?

Why does Government want to sep­ the people concerned who have for years to make the industry arate and segregate in the rice industry worked together what it is today?

What is the Govern­ ment afraid of?


Why does it want to change the present composition of the to I Association, erara earlier sugar indUGtry rice industry the Sugar Producers' think it is only fair to point out that there is one very big rider, and that sugar is essentially an estate tion industry, for reasons everybody, peasant c:onsiderable that should be made clear.

or planta­ known to rice is essentially a and there is a very whereas industry; e between them differenc is, - 727 ' B.G.
Rice Producers iiTH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)

Bilt 728 .,, �-' [MR. TASU.R] of of which the is valid the analogy the preparation has to face at all stages to the final distribution In that case the had he showed that in the Nonetheless, when it comes to the problem rice industry its production-from the land and the growing of the crop right through the finished product.

hon.

Member for Eastern Demerara a point, because sugar industry tion responsible interests its manufacture blems.
Although mean it, he omitted which I now add.

at all stages of and its marketing pro­ I think he did not to mention there wa� one organiza­ of that industry for watching research, over the of of the industry, considering industry, notably problems.

and therefore ooould be of the all these problems and allied research .. where the fallacy it is not a matter of political The hon.

Nominated Member, Mr. sound argu­ that the comes in, should take else.

This is, I concerned.


and landlords the to work perfectly of that, namely, it is a matter of getting of an industry of Gajraj, advanced ments in support rice millers their place like anybody suspect, because franchise; best endeavours in one As,sociation the industry known, capital if not wholly, landlords, th�t landlords get support Associat ions.
So you are faced there­ fore with a frank recognition are going to be excluded from the Rice Producers' and thus the industry level in the advice of millers lords.
Association, would be still lacking then it is farcical or millers at that and land­ If, as is well are going to that they to imagine to the improvement of that industry is largely, in the hands of so-called in elections through District these are matters In other what its title and we considered in the rice in­ when I suggested that which come My concern with the point made by the hon.
Nominated Member, Mr. Gaj­ raj, is this: when on previous occasions in the Public Accounts Committee in the Finance Committee the problems of research dustry, I had always been given clearly to understand possibly within the iSCOpe of the B.G.

Marketing Board, that this Board fs concerned specifically with marketing.

words, it was doing exactly suggested-taking and obtaining, taining markets returns.
If that is true·, and if the argu­ ment is that the rice industry is represented Board, then it seems to me that there is still problems enced in the rice industry.

probleID5 cannot be dealt with by the Rice Marketing sentative it seems to me it can only be dealt with by the B.G.
Rice Producers' which, I understand, cially the finished and main­ on the Rice Marketing for it at the best possible experi­ If those of the rice industry Board, which is repre­ is supported finan­ developing in terms of as a whole, product as a whole a lacuna the sugar industry, I hold no brief for them, but I do in in the Colony, it would be the.5e to exclude of producers from the feel, in the light of experience gained other industries parti­ cularly a very grave mistake two categories one Association understand representative the industry.
serious error, sonally, support by the hon.

Nominated Davis.

I, per­ the Amendment moved Member, Mr. which I am given to and is, is competent, in fact, .- of the over-all interest of That seems to me to be a and for that reason Association, by the Rice Marketing Mr. Hubbard: take the argument Member, Mr. Tasker, It is this, that if there is such hostility and disagreement landlords millers fic interest or on the other, rice ·farmers it seems immaterial to me.
will be impossible to The point here is: you have arrived at an between Association which is fully representative try.

I would first like to of the hon.

Nominate a step further on the one hand and rice farmers then it seems to me that it •Whether it is a matter of speci­ these two sections and landlords, to millers between of the indus­ Board.

d .

and get co-operation l I L r ·- 729 B.G.

Rice Producers 11 TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)
Bill 73i) I still maintain that .. it wrong to take this into the franchise and to talk votes and all the rest at the level, possible differences, the rice farmers.

to judge the extent seem it would Association.

was ent-irely field of political about democratic of it.
In the circumstances, the most that can be hoped for is co-operation which is co-opera­ widest Although tion between I am not competent of the existing to me that ,if that is all the co-operation people that can be expected, certain ment's proposals secure If you are going to impose the landlords cerned and millers on the farmers, much political suggested get.

then you are not going to have a work­ at all.

ing Association then this Govern­ are very wise indeed.
as has been I have heard, by the speeches If, in fact, important it has been made clear by far better qualified elements than I that will not representation, then I am con­ how with this and not necessarily will power these people For myself, I think that is not the there will be land­ to of hostility, case.

On the contrary, who will lords and there will be millers to the Rice Producers' Asso· be elected ciation.
And if, because that cannot be so, then it is better which does not have a constitution does the majority impose people whom not want, and so you well get the widest the possible Government's and see how they work.

We have seen how the old has not arrangement a further worked very well.

Perhaps may become 9ecessary organization to and general achieve as a whole, co-operation to take it forward.

which is necessary co-operation.


proposals has worked-it in the industry Let us accept the over-all balance est.

.. " Mr. Fredericks: The hon.

Nomin­ Mr. Tasker, has made a ated Member, sound and well-reasoned to contribution I rather this debate.

have prefaced that he should that be had no interest by saying regret, however, his remarks in rice.

Mr. Tasker: "No financial inter­ Mr. Fredericks: or other· Financial would like to say that I but that interest in not be directly rice, wise!
I myself have no financial is no reason interested matter is being debated why I should apart from the fact that the in this Council.

The hon.

Nominated bas treated of his remarkable Mr.

Member, this Council to Gajraj, another feats of ora­ tory, in which one could not help but him to the last sentence.

follow Mr. Tasker: Mr. Chairman, one point?

The hon.
The hon.

Nomin­ may I has chosen Mr. Hubbard, and has stated, "rice producer" to a major in­ clear - I do not the political franchise just qualify ated Member, to put one construction on what I have said.

My point was briefly - and I made it absolutely believe technique is the way to approach appointments representing an Association It is one way of doing it, but dustry.

if you have been to by Members around this referred Table, disturbance, to ensure are represented.
This would apply to any in the world, If you have an country and one Association industry of that ipdustry, you tive of all facets on that for a full representation provide He implied that we were not au f ait as with the definition defined in the Rice Marketing Ordi­ that a nance, would be manufacturer I was Association.

elected under the impression that that point was fully dealt with by the hon.
Nominated Member on my right, was almost impossible a manufacturer to that District friend, and should know that what the hon.

Nominated correct.
Nominated correct.

wrong; that to cause a then it is our responsibility to get himself Association; and my good is an astute that all the major interests He has pointed out that it is and which are liable Member, Mr. Davis, or a landlord which have quite rightly, representa­ to a District Mr. Gajraj, it would be a bad thing for problems said is nominated when he said it for a landlord or politician .. 731 B.G.

Rice Producers 11 TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)
Bill 732 (MR. FREDERICKS] it would affect the industry if small segments of the indus­ the industry; adversely try clashed there be a conflict there should between themselves, should of interest.

He said be co-operation.

the other side of the Table, as well as ,some of those even on this side, will fall to the ground.
&' We agree with him that for the rice to maintain and that harmony country's that its place and in­ its contribution to the it is absolutely necessary within the in­ can only be is industry crease economy, there should be harmony dustry, achieved afforded we are looking tion and we should nominated wholly.

ahead to a new Constitu­ not have any use for We agree with him if proper representation He has said that at all levels.

members.
members.

He has stated that, for the present, by virtue qualifications to make sure that there were so nominated or special it was necessary to have these nomin­ ated members on the Council of the Rice Producers Association so that the rice industry can be benefited by the members of their experience which can help the industry.

We agree with Mr. Gajraj, but we would like, in addi­ tion to the farmer,s and to the nominated members, manfacturers because whereby at the level of the District Association.
If the hon Mr. Gajraj, Nominated Member, that four rice millers or landlords are too many to willing have three members members, lord or manufacturer.
there seems to be no machinery they can be elected have, I am sure we will be quite each of whom shall be a land­ to make a further and landlords nominated amendment to - three feels represented, objects Association-and here clearly and emphati­ Mr. Davis: May I remind Mem­ bers that one of the fundamental of the Rice Producers it is stated cally-is for the protection, and advancement producers, accept that categories .

some of the arguments of our friends generally.


as being fundamental to all promotio n of the interests of rice then I think on of rice producers, If we are to Members have spoken of the of those is not nearly rice millers relationshi .. mills.
I want to repeat for that the strained relationship p between I want to say-and I amount of know­ to play of vital importanc and that has been about by the operation the relationship as it used to be because the and the rice manufacturers, those who have small mills, strained and rice farmers.
say this with a certain ledge-that as strained rice farmers particularly each recognize today that they have a e particular roll to the industry; brought 'monster' emphasi-s, that was spoken about in this Council is not as it was a few years past.
And may I make a further have been bad millers today, I think the Government may well have to provide protectj_on for some of them as it is known and a..,ccepted that some of the rice farmers themselves have been guilty practices which However, this fact, that the relationship between the millers is not as strained as it was a few yeariS ago, and the rice farmers seem to recognize of keeping of or are perpetuating some are far from desirable.
that there in the past but be that as it may, I emphasize the small rice miller.

the necessity and farmers comment alive, Associations.

It bas been stated that these rice .

can go and win millers and landlords seats in the District Certainly, they have done so in the past and I take it that they may do so again in the future, but let us be realistic.
There are nearly 200 rice manufacturers regis­ tered-there might be quite a few more landlords-but compared ber of rice farmers, natural to see the average _rice farmer supporting rice farmer, except occasionally?

I say there should be some pro­ reason vision for a limited be only a token number.

I feel on our Statute and protection landlords .

with the mun­ will it not be to these millers and/or give recognition Book we should his brother It is for that even if this number, I.. ere:: ( 733 B.G.
Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, Bill 734 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)

,,.. let us protect and see that they have a voice in the in· dustry which is so near and dear to them.

the millers and landlords how and distinction of the Rice Board and to see him hold but I would with equal poise, contribution the view that his to the hon.

Nominated As I listened Member, Mr. Gajraj, I wondered long will I have to hear him speak with his tongue on the other side of his cheek.
I have had the privilege to sit under him as Chairman Marketing the scales express me.

He was able today has shocked to ,see that a person who is outside realm of the industry to the industry, tribution that a body of men, who in the past have stood the financial heat and burden of have the the day, should not, any longer, It contribution.

right to make argument and illogical is, to me, a rather do not appreciate it.

I really yet he believes can make a con­ a similar the the hon.
Members, on the very useful I would like to compliment Mr. Fredericks and contribu­ and Nominated Mr. Tasker, tions they have made to this debate, to remark that it has taken a representa­ to recognize, tive of the sugar industry and concise decisive in the very clear, illustration with regard position I could not agree with him more as to the necessity field of research, something earlier the better in the and I would say that the is done in this direction for us and the industry.

to the rice industry.


he gave, what is the true for urgent action One further point: The industry To return to my main theme, I sug­ are compromise, gest that the Amendments a reasonable pealing such and the industry.

proposed and I am ap­ to see them as of to the Government accept them in the interest Board Mr. Campbell: to Board.
the Rice Marketing by the Board for the of the Rice Producers Associa­ me as be­ as such makes a monetary contribution through itself Funds are provided running tion, but this is what strikes ing odd.

The Rice Marketing gets ,some of its money from millers.

of fact, the Rice Marketing As a matter Board has, as such, one of the most effi­ cient check-off at it in that light, money directly here it is being 5uggested lers be denied, sufficiently their bona fide organization.
that that is an injustice-an injustice those men who have, made in the past, and who I know shall continue contribution substantial dustry.

if one can look it gets its and that these mil­ sense of hearing at the moment so as to enable low the discussion have gathered opinion by the hon.

Nominated Davis, ernment's themselves I would say on the Statute Book, to through The hon.

Nominated from the industry, proposals.


sys,tems, to the rice in­ express because to make, a to It is a pity that my is not working properly me to fol­ this afternoon, but I sufficient that the Amendments to form the proposed are a fair compromise with Gov­ Member, Mr. but made a flowery speech on co­ and the need for harmony, Gajraj, operation how can we have harmony and co-oper­ af:ion when the very foundations mocratic life The basic things of life seem to be shaken.
I did not quite follow his ar­ but I am supporting guments, ment moved by Mr. Davis.

are being shaken nowadays?

the Amend­ of de­ I repeat the suggestion that number of millers that if it is and/or a smaller would be a burden on the number might be tQought landlords Association, But at the moment, until considered.
of the Rice the proposed amendment Marketing Ordinance becomes have taken years -these Amendments and it may well be to reach this Council, that the same thing will happen in the case of the Rice Marketing especi­ Members, and Mr. Hubbard, ally to the three Nominated Mr. Gajraj Mr. Davis, I am wondering accept.
than gamble with the pos�ibility tinuous interests we should that rather of con­ disagreement and the clashing of it would be bet- in the industry, whose advice thinks Mr. Tello: After Hstening Mr. Hubbard effective Ordinance- Member, Mr. ... �� .. .,� " 735 B.G.

Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Amdt.)

Bill 736 (MR. TELLO] of maj­ and the free func­ for an overall in their interest.

of Democracy, he also pointed rights.
that fallacy, t.er to make provi>sion ority of farmers whose common interest would allow the smooth running of the industry I do not know whether we should accept Mr. Gajraj's that the time has philosophy political come when we should exercise our de­ I think Mr. Tasker has mocratic exploded but what I want to point out is that while Mr. Gajraj lauded the great need for the exercise the political franchise tioning out that if the rice industry flourish the benefit of advice d to advise qualifie outside of the industry.
that the economic just as important, than the exercise because emy at times.
I cannot se.e the industry flourishing but I see the Democracy great value of his suggestion that in the life of the indus­ interest of the economic try as wide a range of capable advice should be made available must live and have that it .should who are from people even though they are I agree with him is life of the industry if not more improtant rights, of democratic can be its own en­ it is necessary Democracy on the simple functioning to that extent, of to the industry.
gree of understanding and jective to achieve which has enabled it has.

the importance the industry a common ob­ L, consideration To say that there is need for proper sub­ those outside the word "three" and, if necessary, to advise within the industry, at all.

I hope that Govern­ advice where and not to cast your bucket you stand and seek the advice of those qualified but to give preference to the industry, is not heing logical So, like Mr. Davis, ment will give sympathetic to the Amendment stitute "four".
great service said that there are strained tween millers and farmers, will only tend to increase because standing, the farmers of without decisions in arriving at such miller,s would be that they decisions.

would become more suspicious of each other, for the word I feel that we would be doing a to the industry.

If it is relations be­ and landlords proposals the misunder­ would take the participation and landlords The result Government's to the detriment of the industry.
and farmers, " I conceive that that is necessary, but for a at stake, and landlords of the industry.

to offer proper advice and would show a greater the hon.
Member to agree finan­ for the Mr. Davis has the peas­ between and landlords have improved to believe I am asking also that those who are involved - Mr. Davis has told us that the cially bore the brunt of millers the financial aspect of the industry number of years - also have a great in- terest willingness welfare told us that relations ant farmers tremendously.

that because, rice industry thing negligible t_he country.
I have seen it grow to command its place in the to become the second Guiana, British and the third agricultural largest Therefore, largest there industry.

export between must have been some partnership some de- the industry, those engaged _ as a boy, I knew that the was looked upon as some­ life of in the economic I am prepared industry, life of economic l __ in The hon.

Member for Demerara The hon.

a farmers' always en­ of the The for such Why then make it exclu­ Association?
for ln River said that the farmers on the Council joyed a majority Rice Producers' Association.

Amendment proposed provides a majority.

sively Member says that there is provision the election of millers the same manner the political the election also permits ts, for the want of a better call capitalis do we see any term, but in this Council elected representative of that class of per-­ son?
I know that that is not the inten­ tion of the Amendment, but it might and I feel that now that have that effect, we see the mistake we should move to correct and landlords.

of what I would franchise it.


As it is, these three sections Association are harmoniously together, and re­ we pass, we of all the legislation for a clash of in­ and we of the Rice Producers' working gardless must make reservations terests must endeavour structure and misunderstandings, once this does not to correct any faulty that exists, 737 B.G.

Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)

Bill 738 ., :-,, rights the democratic of the major­ impair ity.
If this Clause is being amended to into the industry at the bring in outsiders of the upper bracket in the same exclusion falls to the then the argument industry, ground.

How can you talk about self­ import people into government and make it difficult for the industry to sit in the people in the upper bracket of the Association?
Council and still in the usual way who are then auto­ or landlords, In other words, if there are four members elected already manufacturers matically the six members can be chosen the Council from whoever commend that aspect ter and ask that he considers of it to the Minis­ it.

decides on.

I The Chairman: I propose to put for so long.

the question, after waiting I am not a rice producer; I am I am right in regarding the con­ by the hon.
Nominated Mem­ his Amendment, one, in the interest certain tribution through ber, Mr. Davis, as a fair and valuable of all concerned The Attorney-General: I would if it is incorpor­ should be say that this Amendment, ated in the Bill, at any stage, If the amendment redrafted.

slightly I will seek to amend the wording carried, later on.

is in the industry.

I am aware that sometimes it is for the accept­ of Trade and Industry but that apart, the did of sug­ a waste of time pleading ance of amendments, hon.
Minister tell us today that it was because gestions con­ Government decided sideration and so I feel hopeful.

Mr. Fredericks: from this side of the Council that to give further to the Bill as at first envisaged; I have listened at­ The Chairman: The question is, that the subsections (6)of Section nance be repealed.

(2), (3), (4), (5) and 5 of the Pr_incipal Ordi­ Agreed to.

Motion affirmed.
Motion affirmed.

The Chairman: The next question put is Mr. Davis' amendment and I must to the last speaker, tentively say that I do not agree that it is a waste of time to plead with the other side.

I have always found the other side a bit when they especially to reason, amenable with an opportunity have been provided and I am on a matter; to sleep overnight would be no hoping that this occasion exception.

T r1iall which was modified amendment, be amended.


amendment General's because I will put them separately, may be some in favour of six and some is, that in favour of four.

The question by the sub­ sub-paragraph stitution "four" of the word "six" for the word that 2 (c) of the Attorney­ (c) be amended I, personally, wc;mld have been very in the first should line.

there by Mr. Fredericks' from t];e hon.


Min­ glad for an indication ister about his reaction ment, but I see him comfortably in his chair and I do not know what to expect.

to our amend­ relaxed as under: The Committee divided and voted For Against "Four members should be the limit, with might be weighted and landlords".

of that is very or the Council too many manufacturers I feel that the possibility remote.
If we have some indication the reaction Amendment, up with another sure that the composition Council would not be more than the four.

of of the other side to our it may be possible to come to make amendment of the entire Mr.

Bowman Mr. Tasker Mr. Fredericks Mr. Davis Mr. Tello Mr. Jackson Mr. Campbell Mr. Burnham Mr. Kendall-9.

Mr. Hubbard Mr. Gajraj Mr. Ajodha Singh Mr. Saffee Mr. Ram Karran Mrs. Jagan Mr. Benn Dr. Jagan The Financial The Attorney-General The Chief Secre- Secretary tary -11.
Amendment negatived.

., 739 B.G.

Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)

Bill 140 me to put the other part.

The Chairman: now for is the Amendment balance the st;cond Amendment.
in of the whole thing as stated There is no need Next as moved - the "(2) The members of the Council shall be (a) the Director or his duly authorised one member (who shall be a rice farmer) of the Committee ciation appointed provisions Asso­ of each District with the in accordance of the regulations;" of Agriculture (b) representative; and "(3) If any person appointed by him with Amendment the Amendment £ I did not put "each of 1Iion."

That was Mr. Fredericks.

.


.. " because whom shall be a landlord Mr. Davis had said, if I understood aright, that he was in agreement Mr. Fredericks' - "four of whom " As they were two I thought that distinct I was for Members so as to making it simple give them an opportunit they agreed with "six" or "four".

is no harm.

If Members want me to put "four of whom ... ", I shall do so.

I thought be useless.


as "six" had been y to say whether features lost, it will There Right down to the word "place"; and the (b )- substitution " ( b) by the repeal for paragraph and (9) and the the following of subsections ( 8) of therefor subsections-"; substitution And the insertion as paragraph "(c) by renumbering ( 10) as subsection (11). "

Mr. Tasker: I am a little puzzled (c)­ subsection The Amend­ which was debated the whole has not been put to the vote.

by that Amendment.
by that Amendment.

ment which was being debated afternoon We have now, in fact, to vote on the so long.

· Amendment We have voted on a figure.

The figure "six" has no attraction to me.

What has happened is that we have been asked to vote for the substitution to the another reasons why that figure was put forward.
The Amendment The Ch9.irnian: any reference of one figure for without Mr. Tasker: My point is that the to the it is related of the Amendment to the Amendment balance integral The figure "six" by itself tion to me unless balance seems to be as a whole.

has no attrac­ of the Amendment.

The Chairman: I do not mind.

I can put the whole thing if Members wish.

To make it clear I shall put the whole as it is.

"Six" has been Amendment lost.


"Six" has been replaced by "four", but I shall put the whole amendment again: of rice lands or manufacturers who shall be members of a District ciation."

of rice and Asso­ "four of whom shall be landlords Question voted as follows: put, Council divided and For line, and insert is to substitute the word "six" for the word "four" in the fourth "each of whom ... " I said from the out­ set that I will put them separately.
have heard that the word "six" should be substituted because of whom shall be landlords or manufacturers be members Mr.

Bowman Mr. Tasker Mr. Fredericks Mr. Davis Mr. Tello Mr. Jackson they wanted "four Mr. Campbell Mr. Burnham - 9.

Mr. Kendall of rice lands of rice and who shall Association."

Against Mr. Hubbard Mr. Gajraj Mr. Ajodha Singh Mr. Saff.ee Mr. Ram Karran Mrs. Jagan Mr. Benn Dr. Jagan The Financial Secre­ tary We ,,.
of a District As I had pointed out, I told Mem­ that I will put the one for there might be Mem­ bers before "six" first because bers who might be in favour might not be in · favour of the other Amendment which is: "four of whom shall be landlords facturers members of.

a · District of rice lands or manu­ of rice, and who shall be of "six" and Associa- Amendment negatived.

The Chairman whole Amendment second.

Amendment of the words "who shall be a rice farmer".
: I shall put the as proposed , with the exception in the The Attorney-General The Chief Secretary -11.

- 741 B.G.

Rice Producers i 1TH FEBRUARY, i960 Assn., (Amdt.)

Bill 742. such other officers " Association and servants of the Mr.· Davis: Mr. Chairman, in the I sent you I had at the bot­ 9 an to Bill No.

Amendment tom of Clause 4 ( b) subsection original Amendment 5.

Mr. Burnham: Without express· The Chairman : You mean in the You wanted after the Bill as printed?
word "person" with the approval Council."?

in the second line "o�y of the Governor m of the Governor in should be mori!

relevant to the than to the appointment of the ing my point of view I should imagine that the approval Council dismissal Secretary, remarks Bill.

on the Second Reading if I remember of the the Minister's Mr. Davis: I have already spoken on it, but I would like to have my views I do not propose on it recorded.

speak at great length.

to The Chairman : Anyway, that is his Amendment.


The Chairman: You have about three minutes it another time.

on it then you can return to I have had - I re­ Mr. Davis : During the period of Government the to look at the Ordinance to the Mayor and Town the Interim chance fer specifically Council - and I saw that they used the same procedure; but the asseqt of the Governor in Council must be sought.

ing that proposal.

.

That is why I felt like mov­ Ordinance The Chairman: 1 ·shall put the Question.
Mr. Hubbard : Perhaps I can lend to leave Section The fact of the matter now proposes some assistance.

is that Government Amendment Ordi,na11ce as it stands Secretary shall not be dismissed the approval of the Governor.

The hon.

Member is seeking to am.end that by ad­ ding the words "in Council."

- that the General without 9 of .,the an M.r.


Benn: The original amend­ of the General ment of the Bill had left out the question of the dismissal of the Rice Producers' Principal Ordinance says Secretary .shall not be dismissed the approval of the Governor.

.

The printed A3sociation.

that the General without Bill had left that out.

Secretary The Mr. Burnham: I do not quite follow what is the Am6,ndmen:t being moved by the hon.

Nominated Member.
Nominated Member.

I 3J:!l in a bit of a quandary, therefore I am unable to e?tercise my vote.

I have heard him almost sotto voce say some­ thing about Governor in Council.

Mr. Burnham: Is there any Mem­ ber of the Government what this is all about?

who can explain Dr. Jagan: The Minister has al­ ready explained it.

The Chairman: ate that it was so plain.


I did nor appreci­ The Cl_liµrman: I will tell you if 9 of Clause 4. as with: "The Coun­ some fit and proper per­ ... " What he after the word you look at paragraph It begins printed.
cil may· appoint son to be General seeks to do is to insert "person," proval that the whole thing would "(9) The Council may r.ppoint the words "9nly with the ap­ so of the G9vernor in Council; Secretary read: some fit and proper person only with the approval of the Governor in Council to be General Secretary of the Association and Dr. Jagan: The Bi.ll_w.as published on the 23rd of January, (9)read : and Clause 4 (b) "(9) The Council may appoint some fit and proper person to be General Secretary of the Association and such other officers of the Asso­ ciation and may pay any person so appointed tion out of the fonds of the Association as the Council considers may dismiss as may be necessary, any such person," such remunera­ and servants adequate, and ... • "' 743 B.G.
Rice Producers 11TH FEBRUARY, 1960 Assn., (Arndt.)

Bill 744 [DR. JAGAN] try I now ask to be allowed that Amendment.

to withdraw ,._ There were certain garding retary bf the Council the dismissal fears expressed re­ Sec­ of the General Mr. Bowma,11: of the Association.

some conflict the Bill.

There seems to be uegarding the reasons for The Chairman : Is there not an by Mr. Davis seeking the Amendment insertion (9)of the Bill as printed?

of certain words in subsection The Chairman: In your mind?

Mr.
Mr.

Bowman: Not in my mind, Sir, but the Government's.

The Chairman: As far as the mind of the Mover of the Amendment is con­ cerned, it has been removed.

if there had been any conflict Mr.

Bowman : I am referring to (9).

I say there is where the Objects 4, subsection of intention Clause conflict and Reasons the Government the Governor sons to the Rice Marketing are• concerned.

We find to take away from the right to nominate per­ Board.
trying copy I Dr. Jagan: The printed dismissed Secretary is being sought Amendments by him to secure Amendment is not Secretary Pro­ have of the hon.

Member's refers to Clause 4 (b) (9) of the printed Bill which I have just read.

The object of the hon.

Member's to have the General by the Council of the Association.

vision what rights he for the General now has under the Principal Ordinance, that is, if he is to be dismissed it must be That of the Governor.
with the point was met after representation was made to the Minister, deletion the printed the provision stands.

But what the hon.

Member is now proposing is that in the place of the Governor, the Governor in Council should the by seeking in that Ordinance Bill.

It means, therefore, be substituted.

of the Amendment in the Principal approval proposed The Chairman: Are you moving an Amendment?

Mr.
Mr.

Bowman: Yes, I want to de­ lete the word "appoint" and in all subsections and substitute in which it appears, the word "election".

in that subsection The Cha.irman : I think we had better go back into Council and I had hoped that we might have been able to finish the Bill, though we can do so this afternoon.

but it does not seem as - adjourn.

Council resumed.

ADJOURNMENT , \ The Chief Secrl\Jary (Mr. Hedges): I move that CoUilcif adjourn until 2 p.m. tomormw.
The Chairman: That is precisely which seeks the insertion by what I said.

I have the Amendment Mr. Davis of of the the words "only with the approval Governor the words "person" subsection Bill.

If Mr. Davis did not mean that he must say so.

in Council" between and "to" in the second line of (9) of Clause 4 of the printed Mr. Davis: In view of the remarks made by the Minister of Trade and Indus- Council adjourned accordinFlY, ......:.

.

..i;;;;:�, .. ,#