Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698069520948.pdf (Guyana)
THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES OFAOAL R£PORT [VOLUME fj l'R0C£EDSNGS AND DEBATES Of' TH£ FIRST SESSION OF THE FIRST PARJ..IAMEHT OF GUYANA UNDER THE CONSTITUTION OF CUYANA.

32nd Sittin� Friday, 30th December, 1966 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY The Assembly met at 2 p.,a.

Prayer• [llr.

Speaker in the Oaail'] Present: Bi• a......n, th Speak�r, Mr. A. P. Al le,a e Members of the Govema,ent Ministers f.s.

llnldaaa, Q.C.

Br.

dae H cHalde P. A. lleid 1he ilaaom-alt)e P,.

S. i' Aguiar 1ae U.
S. i' Aguiar 1ae U.

11 aurahl e N. J. BiHemLer The llenour-ahl e L. John J. Jord- The Honourable R. 1he Boaearahle M. Lsia -Prime •inister -Minister of Boae Affairs -Minister of Finance of Bousin, and -.

lliniater Reconstruction (Leader of the Rouae) of Local Governaent of Commmication• of Education and -Minister -Minister -Minister Race Relationa -Minister -Minister of Aariculture of Foresta, and •ine• IAnda -•inister of Work• and Bydratdica The Beaoarabl e � •· llerria- 'Dae Boa.oarable J.
B., ...... , •iniater of Labour •inister of &:ono,aic Parliamentary Secretaries Mr. D. B. tleGreot Mr. G. Bo.aan Mr. O. E. Clarke Mr. p. lluacaa Mr. C. v. � -Parliamentary Prime Minister's Secretary, Office Secretary, -Parliamentary Ministry of Labour -Parliamentary llinistry of Education -Parliamentary llinistry and Race Relations Secretary, Secretary, of weal Government �arliamentary Secretary, llinistry of lforlcs and Hydraulics -Parliaatentary Secretary, Other Members Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. l'.A.
Rlair J ...... •.

Carra«t­ R.G.B.

Field-&i.fley Ministry of FiBBnCe Mr. I.A.

S-dte Mr. M. F. Siqla llev.

A.B.

Tro.._ Mr. ff.M.S • ._._., J.P. llr.

C.B.

J....-, LflNhT ef th &pp.

'5itiea \tr, A.

0.aff \tr.

8.H.

&mt Mr. Rn ur .... �r.

H.J.M.

Flr.

Charl�s Jaen, Jr. Mr. C. \'.

!\aa,es llr.

F. H. I. Aaasabe,·e �r.

E.M.G.

*ilson Mr. M. S-itl, J.P, Mr. J. ll S. Lael Mr. fl.

Lall Mr. N .

.&ta.a, J.P. Mr. Y.

Ally •- L. u • .ie fir.

R.D.

Per.-d fti-.


S.A. Raijola Mr. S. M. Saffee ll:u6.tias-tl Clerk of the l\ati0nal Deputy C lerk of the ftlational Assembly A5sembly -Mr. F. A. l\arain, (Acting) -Mr. M. B. Henry Absent: The Honourable W. C.R.
Kendall, C.B.E., Minister of Trade, Shipping and Civil Avia ion The Honourable D. Mah raj, The Hi.,nourable S. S. Ramphal, C.M.G., Q.C., Minister of Health -on leave Attorney-General and Minister of State Prashad Mr. H. Mr. R. Tello, Deputy Speaker -on leave Mr. R. Chandisingh Mr. D. C. Jagan to!.r.

M. 1'.

Poona i tiv E. M. Stoby Mt.

M. Bbagwan -on leave 2629 Suspension of 30TH DECEMBER.
1966 ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER LEAVE TO MEMBERS Mr. Speaker: L e ave of absence has been �ranted �o the· Honourab le DeorQop Mahraj, of Health, from today's Minister sitting, and to the hon.

Member Mr. Linde from the 1st to the' 31st January, 1967.

'Motion now or when we coae to it Business later?

Under.Public there is a Motion the debate on �ich has not VPt.

been ooapl�ted -and which should be dealt with before any considerat ion is iiven to the Motion on the S upple­ mentary Ord er Paper.
: I think Your Honour had ruled soae tiae p reviou sly that the order.of business, a s it appears on the Order Paper, should be proceeded .with in that sequence.· If that Ruling still holds good for today it would �eem that the b usiness on the Order Paper for the !0th December, ceeded w ith, that is, the Motion in respect of the Motor Vehicles Ordin�ce.
: and Road Traffic 1966, should be pro­ After the Motion in respect of the Motor Vehicles and Road Traffic Ordinance has been coa­ pleted and the Minister of Fill8.llce still proposes to put the Stand­ ing Orders of this House in the waste-paper basket, then we can deal with the ,second Pbtion.

But _we have not yet reached that •Y respectful ,tage.

in subais­ ·sion.

The Minister must naae the day on ceed with the second Pbtion.

He has not yet naaed a cay.

which he proposes to pro­ .


Mr. Speaker: I want to know why the Standing Order should not be suspended.

: Mr. <Jaa•e: Are you ref errine to the Order of Business , or the Standing Order to perai t Finan­ cial.

Paper No.

: 6/1966 to be dealt with?

I am not quite clear which item Your Honour is dealing with.

.

Mr. Speaker: Kr.· d 'An.ili' asking that the Standi!li Ordr PR£SENT4T10N ETC.

REPORTS,· OF PAPERS AND The following Paper was laid: Paper No.
Fi�ancial 6/1966 • Schedule of Addi­ tional Provision on the Current for the period ending De­ c e mb er , 1 9 6 6 , t o t a l 1 i n g $1,516,400.

Finance.]

and Capital Estimates [1be Miaistfl' ef Suspension of StandinA Order_ 'Dae Miai•t� ef Fisaace (Mr.· d'Aguiar): I beg to move the s uspension of Standing Order No.

69 to enable this Financial Paper to be p roceeded with at this sitting , after the other item h5c; been compl eted.

: [Mr. CL••e: "Yo u c a nnot move tha t Motion now.
:"] Mr. Speak-er: Does the Oppo­ sition object to it?

hon.

Minister Mr. (]Jase: The of Finance las referred Motion prematurely.

The aembers a great of the Opposition have deal to say on this matter.

Is it p roposed that we take t h� to the 2631 Suspension of 30TH DECEMBER, 19F6 St.mclint Order 2632 suspended to enable him to deaJ with the Financial Paper at ttjs sitting not now.

at a later stage toda), Mr, Chase: lie has not yet moved the Motion, has not yet put it before the House.
: and Your Honour M r .

Speake r: In n o r mal circumstances, he lays the Paper a nd nam e s a day.

: H e is now asking for the suspension of the Standing Order on this occasion.

Mr. Cliase: The day ought be named and when the time c01Des, then the Motion for the suspen­ sion of the Standing Order should be moved.

to Mr. Speaker: Is it allowable for the whole Standing Order to be suspended?

Mr. Cliase: With Your Honour's leave any Standing Order can be suspended.
: The exercise d iscr e t io n must be one tha t should b e done with great caution and care.

of that Mr. Spellker: Then I exercise my discreti on.

: Mr. Cliase: .You, sir, have to hear the views which may be put forward by both s ides of the House.

Mr. d' A@uiar: On Wednesday I J : made this Statement ".

.

.
.

.

According} y, I intend to recommend to Cabinet that a Statement of Excesses be brought before the House in accordance with the Constitution as quickly as possible so as to provide authority to pay Suppli ers for materials d elivere d to t he Ministry of �orks and Hydraulics in good faith."
can be brought as possible As quickly has been achieved, because only two days ag:> I made that statement,: It is 1 n ecessary to pay the suppliers who have delivered goods in good faith to the Department of Works and Hydraulics: cement, bitumen, ' and a whole list of goods.

If today lapses, then the authority to pay lapses and we cannot pay the suppliers.

: It may JBake some considerable time a.gain before a special Resolution before this House to enable the suppliers to be paid out of next year's funds.
: It j s for these reasons that three members of the Opposition spoke about the misuse of public funds,: I mentioned the amount involved, and they started to debate the matter two days ago.

: They cannot now complain that they did not have some prior knowledge of the matter.

The fact that the end of the year is so close has m ade it necessarv to adopt this procedure th:t the Standing Order be sus­ pended because and to�ask of prime urgency.
: Mr. Speaker: I 8JD going to my discretion exercise bearing any further this aatter.

argwnent in without Mr. Chase: There i s a con­ stitutional point which is involved in this matter.

The hon.

!

'!ember Dr. R1:1mslj_ho:: re "ill r 2633 Su s,,en sion of 3)TH DECEMBER, 196E Standinl Order 2634 Mr. Speaker: The hon.

Meaber is readin� somethi�g which was presented by a Minister.

How caa I follow him if 'all that noise is aade?


Mr. Oaaae: I continue: leave to ad­ provi�ion which be to speak on this seek Your Honour's dress you on that.

'Ibe Minister of Finance has not been frank with us when he stated that three members started supplementary seeks to debate this afternoon.

"Nothing c11uld be further from the truth than that.

Incidentally, two Members did comment Minister's statement, was no debate on this Financial Paper which is before us this afternoon.
on the but there that the money has been spent or committed without author• ity, a n d t hat there i a administrative and lack of control in the llinia• try."

confusion "This confirm• both The Minister adverted to a s tatement which he made a few days ago.

: He l"ead only the final paragraph of that statement.· May I, in order to draw y our atten­ tion to the seriousness of this aatter, t he Minister's said this: refer to other parts of statement.
He We were apprise d of the fact that over a million dollars had spent or been either .unlawfully comnitted by this Ministry ana the hon.· Minister t ook such a serious view of the aatter that he required a report to be 11&de to him by the Director of Audit.
Be went on to say, and I quote: Be went on to say - "I want to inform this the House that a request from Permanent SeCTetary, Ministry of Works and Hydraulics, a Supplementary Sl.5 million has been refused since it was clear that the money had al ready been unlaw­ fully spent or committed."

Provision of f or "I am of the opinion that unauthorised excess�� such a s these s houl� be s pecially dealt with, aa ia indicated in Article 112 (2) o!

the Constitution.
the Constitution.

Just to b ring t hese excesses before the House as an Esti� mate of Supplementary Provi-- s ion seems t o me to make nonsense of the Financial Regulationa.• "furthermore, I suspec­ ted there was much �asteful expenditure g oi n g on.

I. wrote a minute to the S e cre­ tary to the Treasury ing immediate and such disciplinar y mea· sures as might be necessary.

investigatio, request­ I h ave h ad a report from the Direct�r [Interruptions.]

of Audit."

I say that in '{>resentin& My hoR.


Friend, Dr. Ra•:1a9c boye, will deal with that point, but may to us a Financial Paper in the normal way in which Estiaates of Supplementa ry iprovisi 011 a re presented, is, as he hiaself said if I may quote his words - •to make non�ense Regulations".

The Minister this stateaent oaly two or three!

of the Financial.. aacli; 263� [MR. CHASE] 30TH DECEMBER.

l966 .

niaht aatlt1.


the ·m.vmey -�ass­ iag the ffo-tio.a to apprgye the f'lotor Vehicles and Roa.d Traffic (.Aaendaellt) Regula"tious falls to the ground.

Witli regard to this 111atter, report.

who are guilty it after the tllere is no law to prevent us fr� consideri� receipt of the Auditor's to see This Asse11bly is entitl�d t.he Auditor's report.· The Ass emd.

y is e.Dtitled to know wlm are the officers of expelldiJ:tg G<we :rnlle1l1.
funds in this·�, and wllO are respes­ sible fort.his financial crisis.

saying that we I aa respectfully are entitled to lave at least the notice which is required by the Standing Orders.

The Suppte­ aen:tary Order Paper wa.s handed to m e this afteruoon at 2.09 p.m.· This Paper, Financial of 196,, was handed LO ae at and we are beqg asked 2.13 p.'.ffl., to consider this matter iamedi­ a. tely, without re.ga rd to the t ime which we are entitled have unde1· tlae Sta.ndillg Orders.

to Pape r No.
to Pape r No.

: 6 vomits and licks np T�e �inister is days ago, and the only .&Dalogy that I can see to this is tba t of a dog w�ich its very vomit.

: his own vomit here this licking afternoon in asking us to agree of the Studing to a. suspension Order to enable the 111fttter to be dealt with this afternoo.n.
: The Minister hiaself said cannot coae this with four lines in the this matter sliould be specially be dealt dealt with; it should with as unauthorised excesses under Article 112 (2) of the Constitution.· The Min i s ter, having alerted this House to the fact that this was a grave and weighty matter, afternoon legend and no furt:her details, and ask us to approve of because seme people have supplied good faith.
cement and sand in If people have supplied ment with materials, there is no regulation or law which says we cannot vote this 110ney next year.

There is nothing from doing that.

to prevent Govern­ this us I sey Us-:is: If eYeTy ti•e w an t e d said Last night the Minister that the Assembly had to approve of t he Regulatio ns under the Motor Vehicles and Road Traffic O r dinance because he people to pay the correct licences on the first January.
: S0:ae people have been to the Inland Revenue Department car licences and tol d that t h e y c a n not g et for another two weeks licences because t h ey have not been p rinted-: I have cbecked this aysel f and found that this is so • So what the Minister &aid we ceae to deliate s<aetllillg i JJ this Ass�ly, the St&ndin g Orders are �oing to be sus­ pended -a s has been the rule rather than the exception a.re making an absolute Orders, a. co11t­ of the Standing plete farce of them.
It would be Oetter if we Lore pd.

them in the wastepaper and have no Standing Orders a.11.

StandinQ to be respected s erved.

To be coming to this Assembly that the Standing Orders should be suspended .

of thea.

Orders were made and to be ob­ to pay their they have been basket, a.t - we shambles so regularly to tell us is making a mockery them up, and last 2637 Suspension of 3.>TH DECEMBER.
t96 6 the and 1'he Minist�r i.5: guilty of a great deal of i;ncoapeteace to wait until today to table this measure which h e says must be passed today.

I do not agree that it must b-e passed today, I ask you, sir, not to accept it.

There is a great deal of adainis­ trati ve bungling and :imOl)Wpetence i n this matter.

The Minister must hav e been advised at time he made thi s stateaen.t.

tt«>.

days ago, that the passing of this provisionwow.d have to be done by the 31st Decemb-er, 1966.
It is clear, howe�, th&t he was not so a-dvised aud the-re is no real u rgency.· The people in­ volved will not be paid t01110-rrow if we passed this today.· Some of th-em I understand, paid' already.· Minister's 11!

'ent is CG111111itted and all persons will have to be paid whether this is passed today, next month �r the month after, because certain cmnni tment s we re 111ade.

have been According to the stateseut tM!

Govern- Since this amount is already 2.

40· p.,-.

The relevant.


Stadiug Order i n tnis aatter appears t o be Standing O rder 69.

Standinc Order 69 (1) states -it is long, but I shall not read the whole t.hi.ug, just the final clause: x " .

•• on a day to be uamed by the Minister pre• senting the Paper but not earlier than one clear day after that 1»n which the Paper was presented."

The Paper was presented at 2.1, this afternoon.· Your lonour has already ruled fn another aa.tter, on a point taken by the hon.
and learned Member Mr.: .J'agau soae time a�o, what is to be under- d tt l d II stoo by one c ear av, so we do not have to go back to taat..: I wou ld now a sk a y h on.

: and learned Friend Dr.· Raasabq_ye - 'Mr.

Merr_..: "�ith the appro­ val of the Speaker."]

-with Your Honour's approval, to deal w ith the constitutional point which is involved in this aatter.
· Mr. Spe.ker: I do not wa.nt I th· t · h t · exp a1 n e s a co1111litted, let u s have our due a nd p r o p er ti•e and notic e. Althoug h yesterday y ou, sir, e xerc is e d your discretion in favour of the Governaent because D-r. a..a .. eye: -Your Ion- you were of the view that it was our -- necessary to collect revenue from people in tiae, that is, from the first day of next year, there is no similar baste in this connec- t1on.
n 1s connec 10n w a 1s r equire 1.s money w 1c as already been coamitted or spent.
: Th e urg e ncy d oe s not ari s e. -, Consequently, I ask you, sir, to - Mr. 4' ... iar: Under see that the Standinir Orders a.re -words "was coa•i tte d", soae uphel d.· I do not think it is -aoney was spent and soae was neces sary to refer you to the -coamitt.ed without the authority S tanding O rder dealing w it h _of this House, but the officers money aa t te rs as regards the _ of the depart.aent -at least the required to be _aeabers of the Governaent - &re notice which is • responsible f or the deeds of given.
unl --u11 ..... t. by th b · h h · aoney was a,u y spcu e drau l. to h ear any aore.

: I just want the hon.

Minister of Finance to M. · t f w rks d H O an Y 1cs.

1 .

th t t nt th t. the - tills TY O ewae a the 'Jaey• d · · 263� Suspension of 30TH DECEMBER, 19 66 Stl!lndina Order 2640 [MR. D'AGUlA�] and the and properly •.

Those people money, they have t heir ofticers have committed purchased cement, bitumen and other things, is morally pay for them.
�annot legally pay brings to the House a statement of excess -as it has done in accordance of the Constitution Government bound to with Article 112 (2) But the Government which states: u nless it two two as an Amend­ have had ·repeat that .Members days' notice in accordance with what I said on Wednesday, days ago.

Th e law officers advised me that I coul<l have moved it in on Wednesday ment.
: There is nothing to stop you, on�e you have a supplemen­ tary provision before the House, to move in any new Amendment.

could have done it better, more in accordance with proper procedure, it before the iouse as a separate item, llmd this is eeing done.· so, but I thought to bring I "(2) Where a supple­ mentary estimate.

or of excess is laid before the National Assemb ly •.. .

11 statement We have laid it not as a supple­ mentary provision or estimate as a statement of excess.
but The reason for the urgency is that there has been consider­ able delay in payiJ.tg because when the investigation started some time a.go, payw-ents to the sup­ pliers were held up.

Some of them are suffering serious because of this and, in that we m ay legalize now and honour our commitments as a Government responsible for the acts of our s ervants, just like anyone else, we have to pass this statement of excess so that the money c ommi tted c a n be p a i d before the end of the year.
losses order the payment Mr. S.•-'*�T: Does this wages and salaries amount iuclude to workers?

M-r. �'Ap i•r: It really according to our method 1BOney spent, money woney includes, of accounting, �0D1111itted.

: spent on_ wages� aotey already sp-ent; therefore, we are really legalizing; there is no o ther way.

This includes The hon.· Mfilber Mr.· Chase spoke abou t bringing it before the O pposition.
The normal is that it will be procedure i ncluded in the Director of Audit Is Report waicjl will be put b efore the Pnblic Accounts Caaitt-ee.

The Public Accounts Co.i ttee should be chaired by a It is true enough that it member of the Opposition, but the could be p assed next year1 but members of the Opposition have only as a special Motion which not been doing th-eir job.
They might even take some months to refuse t o sit o n the Public get throup;h.: I am advised Director officers that this is the proper taken.

It is n ot for t h e procedure, and I am putting it members of the Oppositio n t o thro�b.

I regret that I cannot disc�.

-that now,, or to see the give one d ay's notice because of Director of Audit's Report now.

the tiae of the year, but I_ T'uat will come in due course.
by the Accounts o f Audit and the law advise on what action should be Cammi t tee which should '2641 llotor Vehicles 30TH DECEMBER,, 1966 Road 1raf£ic (.ladt.J 2642 Government PU�IC BUSINESS and Wiq hy t.Le Speaker Mr. Speaker: I have consul­ ted the Leader of the Opposition on this matter a nd he has bluntly to have this Paper taken refused today.

After listenin� to the arguments on both side?, I am of the opinion that the ·must fulfil its obligations.
: The business made to suffer and, notwithstand­ ing the fact that the Opposition claims that it has not had s ufficient time to s tudy this Paper, I BJll of the view that I am g oin.g to allow this Motion.· I will, therefore, put the Ques­ -tion.

of the State must not be Quest ion put, an:i qreed to.

Mr. Wharton Dr. a..aalaoy�: Division!

Aas«nbl.,.

divided: Ayes 25, Noes 15, as follows: ... Noes Mr. Persaud.

ft-eir.

T'r«la• •* Singh Mr·� l.i-'e· Mr.


Ally Mr. Sancho Mr. Khan Mr. Field-Ridley Mr. Lall Mr. Hamid Mr. Carring ton Mr. Budhoo Mr. Wilson Mr. Blair Dr. Ramsahoye Mr. Too-Chung Mr. Nunes '-'·· Joaquin Dr. Jacob Mr. Lbbard Mr. Duncan Mr. Clarke Mr. Ram Karran Mr. Benn Mr.

Bowman Mr. deGroot Mr. Chase Mr. Thomas Dr. Ja.gan - 15 Mr. Merriman Mr. Kasim Mr. Jordan Mr. John Mrs. Gaskin Mr. Correia Mr. Cheeks Mr. Bi ssember Mr. d'Aguiar Dr. Reid -25 Rega.
2.so p ••• Question )Jut, and qreecr co. lotion carried.

Relevant Standini Order suspended.


MOTION MOTOR VEHICLES AND ROAD TRAFFIC (AMENIJMEltl) REGULATIONS The Assemly resumed deba� on the following 111ation: that in u9e it resolved terms of s�tion 98(3) of the Motor Vehicles and R oad Traffic Ot-dinance, Chapter Assembly 280, this National es approlf'e and Road TTaff ic (Aaeirdment) Qeplat.de8 ., l9e6 .. which ,ter� made c,u the 29th of De-cember , 1966 • .., of the Motor Vt:hicl Mr.; lp••••r: When we took last evening the the Adjournment h on.
Member Mr. Raa Karran bad just concluded bis speech.

le spoke for half an hour according to� notes.

Mr. PtrMU•: I beg to IIOve that tbe hon.

: K•ber be given an extra.

fifteen minutes.

Mr. a-.

seccaded.

Ques-tion put, and nefatived .. Mr. Lall rose - �1r.

Per ... 41: This Pa.per l,e­ fore the House appears able unsul4- 2643 •otor Vehicles and 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Road Traffic (Amclt.)

2644 Reas.

Mr. Spealer: the Floor to Mr. Harry Lall.


I have given us assume, as who cannot were introduced agree with you on that Mr. Lall: Tb ank you very much, sir.

This Motion, which is before the House, discriminates against those people afford to pay.

Let you said, and rightly so, that the Government has an obligation to carrv out i t s business.

I coIJI!letcly point.


But if we were to look back to the early and m iddle parts of 1966, we would observe that measures this House to withdraw taxation from those who can afford to pay.

Keasures were introduced in this House whereby the Government, in no uncertain terms, opened t h e gateway for money to flow out of this country.

By that I mean that the hon.

�tinister of Finance r evoked thr Exchange Control Ordinance.
He did not than that money would be going out of this country - the saae money that could have been used in Guyana to open avenues for employment whereby revenues could hRve been generated.

consider in 3 p.m. debated.

But it is either incom­ petence or dishonesty that caused the Minister to bring it tv.ti days before the vear ends.

If the Government w�re in such need for money' it could h�ve brought tros measure to this House before nO\,·.
We wante d t ime to go o ut and cons u lt t h e pub l i c beca u se, judging from this measure here, there is a lot of dishonesty in practic e. You h av e done an injustice office, sir, by be so put, and if I have insulted your office, I beg in advance to make an apology.

to your good allowing this measure to I have a very high regard for in of you, Your Honour, but I know that you did this with good grace order to help the incompetence the G overnment.

rMr.

Thomas: "Do not add insult �to injury.


"J When one exa�ines this measure one finds that the owner of a motor-cycle with 2 wheels and not exceeding 200 pounds will have to for a pay $5 more for a licence; motor-cycle with 2 whe e ls and exceeding 200 pounds he will have t� pay $5 J110re; for a motor-cycle with 3 wheels he will have to pay $8 more.

Hanv other measures were wi thdra� so as to allow those who can afford to pay to get away with "murder."

But today the h on •.


Minister held up car li­ CP.nces from the public.

I also heard mv hon.

Friend Mr. Chase referring there today and was told that licences for ti1e next t� or three weeks.

w·;uld not be available to this fact.


I went The argument was adduced in this Bouse that this Government took eight aonths to bring e aee.sure of tlais nature to be The own-er of a motor vehicle m o r e f o r a if the vehicle does not other than a motor cvcle used solely for private purposes will have to p�y $18 licence, e xceed 2240 pounds.

: Of course, it is said t hat if a man can afford to purchase also afford to oay an additional licence fee of 518.: I agree with that.
However, a lot of poor p eople are using hire cars in this country, that this increase will fall on the poor aan.

and it is obvious a car, he can 2645 Motor Vehicles 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 �· Traffic (A.t:lt.J 2646 and or considera­ fee bas been It means Let us take into tion the lorries which c arry goods ..

The licence increased immensely.


that if a lorr;y transported goods from Georiretown to Rosignol Hopetown and the driver charged 25e for a crate of potatoes, r esult of this i ncre1se in the licenc e f e e , the charge for transportation v,,ould be increased to 40¢ a crate.· This increase will obviously fall on t he poor workers who are now being re­ trenched.

: This Government does not care what happens to the poor people.

as a Reia.

our roads.


According to coluan 35e5 of Volume V of the laws of this country, it is clearly t ha t the l icence for a goods vehicle for trade purposes has to be pajd.according to its payload.

I understand that what is meant by the term "payload" is the a mount of load the vehicle can carry.

stated What do we see in this coun­ try?


Just across the street Your ffonour will see some vehicles with big iron bars on top, packed very high w1 th drinks and cov­ e red with tarp aul.ins, but the owners will now have to pay a l icence fee in accordance with the u nladen weight or the ve­ hicles.

ls this not injustice?

The fares as well as t he This Governaent i s bringin:g 3.10 p.& .
The poor freight rates fur carrying goods on t he t rains have also been increased.· On whom will this increase be passed?

working people cannot afford to p ay more.

: What do we observe from this vicious measure?

The sugar companies that are making 111illions of dollars have been allowed to get away wi tbout any i ncrease; in fact, they do not pay a ny t hing a t all.

: [Mr. TL011as: "They have been givena bonus.

:"] Ny hon.

: Friend Sf\YS t hat they have been given a b onus.
T hose l<lho have the and the ability to pay capacity are not asked to pay more.

•hy should we not collect r evenue from those People?

Why are we collecting t h e r o a d s broken µp by the v e hi cles owned by t he sugar companies and others.

r evenues?

To build •easure after aeasure to take the burden fl'Oll those who ca.a afford to pay and to put i t o� those who can ill afford to pay�.

Is this what we wa.nt in Guyaa.?

Are the r ich to get richer and tile poor poorer?


Let us look &t the poor fanaers who are aerely &i)Jg out a living in the rural areu: the other day Govenaent fl tbdrew the s'1bsidy on duty-free �lerie thereby putting a bee.vier burden on the farmers.

: Today, these same farmers, who licence duty of $2.� a year for tractors, will be asked to pav $ 20 a year.

Is this just?

are payinlt a The Jion.· Minister or Finance The h on.
Member Mr. Ram certain specifications Karran said that the roads were made with to earn· a certain amount of load bv one.

vehicle.

Let us l ook at these sugar tnicks and �e �ill see the daaar they are doing to was a ll ow ed to get away w i th ·"murder".

The terminologv of the law has changed.

Perhaps, t he hon.

Member, Mr. Feilden-Singh, changed it for him.

Let the lx>n.

Minister t ell u s about' }� d ividends paid by Ba.nk Brewerie8.
2647 Motor Vehicles and [MR, LALL] 30TH DECEMBER, 19�6 Road Traffic (Aadt.)

2648 Ress.

Mr.

Speak er: T:illle !

Mr. Persaud: S€ction 62 of Part VIII of the M otor Vehicles a nd Road Tra ff ic Ordi nance, C hapter 280, has been framed to a�hieve certain things, in par­ ticular, to control vehicles plying for h ire a nd using t he roads of our country.

The Mini st er of Finance is using his position to get away with discrimination.

: Let justice not only be done, but let it appear to be done •.
Cars for hi re are only l i­ cense d to take six persons.

I am s u bject to correction, bµt a n otice appears at the back o f t hese cars to the effect that they can only take six persons.

B u t look a t the t r uc ks that carry Fep si-Cola and Banks Beer Nothing 8{)pears about the number o f b oxe s t o w h ich t hey a r e limited.

They can carry as great a load as they like.


: These Regulations should be aaended so that the hundreds of trucks could pay licences according to their payload a n d not a c cording to unladen weight.

·-We are in this Assembly to protect the welfare of Guyanese.

We have seen a fla.t rate intro­ duced for tNck'!f that c:t'Oss by the ferry.· We see these trucks f illed to capacity with drink/ crossing by the steamer day afte; day and weaken�ng the stelling.

: hey pay a special rate to cross.


T , �e have also s ee n that the freight for bi eye!

es, ldli ch 3. rt used by poor persons, was :raised.

ls this not discrimination of the worst sort?

Can we, as reason­ able men, sit down in this Assea-­ b ly and a ll ow measures cf this na�u�e to pass, when they dis­ c rim1na te against persons and allow the rich to become richer and the poor to become poorer?

We look forward to you sir ' , t .


o give some protection, or to help th� Opposition to give some p rotection to the inhabitants Guyana .

of 3.20 p.m.

If this measure is allowed to pass, as printed, a mockery will be made of this particular part �f t� Ordinance dealing with thF 1ssu1ng o f licences for mot1 vehicles.

Later on, I shall dr ..

.hon.

: Keab-ers' attention to thl particular part of the Ordinance that is affected by· this ins.sure.
This Governaent claims that it is working in.the interest of i� worki� ma.n of this country.

Bi.cycles are very popular i n .Ge,-, ht :rec:mU,, a maeer of people, pa1'tiC1Ll.arly.

'tJM>se who have to t:l'&vel f:n:lll country areas outside of Central Georgetown have been � a.trl.o-cycles to g� ·to work.

: Right fee �n respect of a.n 8:Uto-eycle is $/ :for on year.
This Govern­ aent bas see» it fit to h1crease the lioeace fee by $3 - it will now be $10 - so one Call see that this particular tax will affect the sms.11 Mn at the bottom.· The licence fee in respect ·of a motor cycle will also be in­ creased by $2.

now, the licence .

I was looki.11:g at the various increases on the.

paper.
paper.

A Morris or �ini Minor is a car used by an • o rdrnary person earning a small salar y.: At the moment, t h e licence fee i s $32, but, after th� passage of this Amendment to 2649 Motor llelucJea 30TH DiCIPElf'II .• : lt&i llto.-d rnllic (Amt.)

2650 and Be,s.

Let ae till Members of this louse ldlat it costs a. poor Jl&ll to oper.

:ate a hire c9,r.

: It is n o exagaeratiou that the transport service in tllis country is very, very poor.
: The ordinary •an :,ftm uses h ire oars owned by the orditary 11&& to trave l to and fn,a work aud even to make social visits because the ordinary· hire car owner is able to ch&r1e 1111Ch.

cheaper than the garages.

They have to pa, for offices and soo on, ,md once you use a telephone ad call Bookers, you have to Pa.Y a high S1Dl.

· The insurance for one of tkese six-seater cars is S652 per anua, and the licence.

fee will DOW be increased to S75 per annua.


: The owner will now have to pay $727 for insuranc:" aad licence.

: the ca.r under a hire purchase a.greeaent ud he had paid one­ third or a. half of the cost as a down payment, he would have to '{)&.y a. ainimt11 of about $140 per month, which would take aila to Sl,'80 eer year.
If he had pul'Ckase l the f'lotor Vellieles ud Roa.d Traffic Ordinuce, a P"•rson who owns a Mini M iuor or a Morris Mioor and is using it for private purposes and nothing else, will have to pay $45, an increase of is •y view that the $13.

It Government ought to exaaine the revenue with a view to placing the burden of inereases on those who C8.1l ,-ff ord to �.
The Still un is tryillg not to stick to a bicycle, an auto­ cycle or a aotor cycle, but to buy a small s ar like a Mini Minor or a Morris Minor.· Instead of giving the workil11 ··a.n a chance to better hiaselt, this Govern­ aent is suppressing his a.spira.­ tioas to go fo}"Wa.rd.

This Gov­ erment does JtOt want the small aan to drive a car.

le •ust e ithel" ride a bicycle or p� .the incree.se of S13 that a aan who owns a Chevrolet will pay.
: The licenoe fee in respect of a -,tor vehicle exceedin_g 4,000 pounds and not exceeding 5,000 pounds is $120, aad it is $200 in r espect of a 111otor vehicle exc e e d ing 5,000 pouu<ls.

There are few ca.rs to which these licence fees will apply.

: M os t of the cars a r e saaall cars like t h e Austin, �orris, Simca and so on.
: T here is no doubt that a large number of people in this country are using hire cars a.s a. means of liveliho od; so cheap transportation is being provided for th<: small aa.n and, at the 1':hen we come to licence fees in· respect of hire cars.

The sa.ae time, the small aan is earning his liveli ho o d, h is here.

For same thing applies P';e&d and butter.


: The owner of a. instance, a Morris Minor only hire car will now have to · ra.is � takes five J2 a.ssenge�, includi.ng $2.407 to cle ar off his insta.1'1 the driver, and -not six as in •ents and his.insurance a� t h e ease of an Austin, or a licence expense s.· 1 a.a no\.

·Morris Oxford:.
·Morris Oxford:.

at the moment, � ug into acco unt expenses for ·the licence fee i:a respect of a oil� ga.solene, servicing, tyres, Morris Minor for hire is $47 per wear and tear, e t c. Can an a.nnua.

: 'l'his GoveM1111ent ha.s seen online;ry man continue to ply his it fit to �ncrease it by Slj, car for hire when he has to face carrying i t up to $60.
ln th.e all these heavy comdt.aents-froa case of the popular six-seater ltoth the insurance COllp&lli es and car, the licence fee is now t75 p.er amua, a:n illCJ"eaSe of $1;..: · the Qcniel"llllent?

2651 Mota Vfmiclea 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Roal Traffic (4.dt.)

2652 Regs.

and [MR. PERSAUD] 3.30 P•!ll• if any at all, The Minister of Communica­ tions is not here and he has very little knowledge, about this Ordinance.

He has unde,r specific functions certain the Motor Vehicl e s and Road Traffic Ordinance.
As a matter of fact, u nder a particular section of this Ordinance, he is an Advisory compelled Board.

This Board will Licence be able to advise the Minister as to the number of vehicles opera­ tin g o n the Eas t B ank and throughout the country-: to appoint with is actinv , and in particularwith The hon.
: Minister contrary to the Ordinance in a number of matters dealing licences the issuing of hire car drivers' Under this Ordinance licences.· he has the right to decide who is a fit and proper pe,rson to drive a h i r e car, but n ow he has 1 b solutely �he competency of the driver because the driver would have to drive a obtained vehicle after p as si ng a test which is given by the police.
A number of people who have applied for hire car licences have not got them and the Minister does absolutely n othirig about, the matter.

no right to challenge a licence I have been t alking about is pushin g poor hire cars and private cars.

I ,,ant to say in one sentence that this Government hire car owners out of business by increasing licences.

Already people are complaining about poor t rans­ portation on the East Bank and on the Eas t Coast .
Many civil the· cost of their serv.a.J1ts depend solely on nire cars to bring them to work, but, .. with the increase in licences, the hire car owners will be forced to increa.se their fares.· Therefore, heavily ordinary workers.

: the burden will fall of the o n the shoulders ° I want the Min i st e r of to tellus what is generally in this I see here that Co•unications Gove:rnaent's policy in relation to transport country, because certain changes have been made with respect to goods vehicles.
: At the •o•ent, a person who wishes to oeerate a motor lorry under the for hire is co•pelled Ordinance to apply to the pre­ scribed authority for a road service licence.

: The prescribed decides whether the authority person making such application • ·will be p ermitte d to ply for trade in Georgetown.
: the cost of a With this .Amendment, section 84 -I think that is the correct s ection -will fall to pieces is stipula,­ because no difference ted for the cost of a licence for a hire truck and licence for a pr1vate truck.

: I any Member on that side challenge of t h e House to show me any difference!

With this Amendment a person who owns an ordinary car and wants to move around with his goods - perhaps he might be a "little" pay an increase of $30 per annum.
But a man who is now operating a • from Georgetown to motor-truck: Rosignol, for instanc e, will enjoy a reduction of $100,: tailor - will have to I make that point because I really w a nt to know what i s Government's policy with respect to the transport service.

The 2653 llotor Vehicles· 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 .Ro.d Traffic (A.dt.)

2654 and Reis.

Mr.· Speaker: I consider it a -waste of time.

You are repeatin: and repeating what has been said before.
of Coalnaieations Minister was shoutiag across the Tallle just now.· I want h i• to be present now becanse this Amendment is in conflict with wha.t he was saying.

Perhaps there is oonflict between the Minister Minister of Works but it appears to is a conflict·of the !

"iinister of Finance and the Minister of CODUllllnications.
of Fina.nee and the and Hydraulics, me that there policy between with a.11 due respect affects the M otor Vehicle and Road Traffic Ordinance generally, and in particular the transport service which is a Government institution.

: poi n t with r espect t o t hi s service.

Buses on the .East Bank that argument all pay -- Mr. Speaker: I have been the I am ma.king this to you, sir, Mr. Pera11U11: This .AJnendment, hearing time.

: Mr. Pe.....l: It is important.


Mr. Speaker: Mr. Luck de­ veloped that point yesterday.

·He developed the point of buses.

Mr. Speakei-: I d o not want any repetition •.

Mr. Persaud: I am not re­ peating myself.

Mr. Speaku: Say something new or sit down.

: Mr. Persaud: I was dealing w ith trucks.

There is no diff - erence between hire trucks and private trucks at the moment.

Mr. Speaker: I do not want to hear anything about trucks.

I have heard that before.


You are repeating what other speakers have said.

3.41) p.m. Mr. Persaud: The Amendment covers various types of vehicles, and the only way I can make my contribut ion is by -- Mr. Speaker: If you repeat the arguments I am going to ask you to sit down.

Mr. Pera•••: This Amend­ ment -- Mr. Pere-ti: I want you to listen to the point I am trying to make.
I want to s a y tha t l icences for buses plying in Berbice will cost less than buses on the F.ast Bank, while buses in Georgetown will pay $120.

The poin t I am trying to make is that where Government has trans­ p ort service cheaper, and where there is no Government the licences are more expensive.

I want the Government.

to give us reasons for this.

the licences are tran?port service This is the point I am trying to make.

There is no doubt in my mind that the rice industry is suffering at the moment.
If I were to compare the rice industry with the oper ation of funeral parlours, I would say that fu­ neral parlours money than .th� rice farmers • When I examine this measure, I find that tractors in the rice industry will have to PBi.V an in­ crease of $18, while a hearse.

are making more 2655 Motor Vehicles 30TH DECEMBER, l966 &.i lsdlic (Aadt.)

26St and � [MR. PERSAUD] parlour would funeral used by a p ay the same licence that was p a id b efore 1953 - $20.
No i ncrease has been made in the licence a hearse!

fee for The members of the Opposition and Road Traffic have been left out, feel that where Ministers are involved there is no increase in the licence fee, but where they are not involved there is an increase.

If you examine the matter c arefully you will find tha t Schedules A and B of the Motor Vehicles Regulation.s and there will be no change in the licence of many vehicles.
When we lo·ok at the bottom of this paper we see that vehicles o perating on sugar plantations will p a y rio incr�ase at all.

These people have been enjoying this exemption since the :C,olari.al days.

: The meabers of this Gov­ e rnment say tliat this country needs money in order to provide employment for the workers, see no reason why these vehicles sJ,ould from the pay­ be exempted ment of licences.

The Government should call u pon all plantations to pay licence fees for their vehicles.
so I Mr. Speaker: You are repeat­ ing that all the time.

creating serious traf­ one C&B � t.&t the bu.JJI-� t rucks operating on the East Coast are fic hazards, but this Government has drafted leg islation to pro­ tect tha sugar companies' inter­ e sts .
These peopie should be m ade to pay a. little more for licences vehicles.· for all of their motor I have been trying to point out tlle various conflicts between the Motor Veh ieles and Road Traffic (Amendaent) Re�lations, 1966, and Ute Motor Vehicles and Road Traffic Ordinance.· I should like the hon.· Minister of O:mmunica.tions to tell us what is Govermaent's policy with respect to tnmsport.

: We must be told whetlter it is Government's intention to retain its tran51>ort services in this coon.try.
: If the l icences for aotor vehicles c om peting against Government transport-are to be reduced, then we must be told whether it is Govermuent's down tbe railways .

i ntention tJ close Mr. invoke Order.

Clerk to 41(1) .

Speaker: I am going to the r e levant Standing I am going to ask the read Standing Order No.

The Clerk of the National Assembly (Ir.


Narain) read the Foll owing Standing Order: Mr. Persaud: In Clause 5(e) 11,200 pounds unladen it is stated that goods vehicles exceeding weight will pay the sum of $400.

There is no limitation in this, whereas specific limitation.

sion was made in order to give the sugar companies send their trucks on the road with any 8.Dlount of weight.
No in other cases there is a cha.nee to This provi­ ''The Speaker or Chair­ man, after having called the Assembly, or attention of the of the Committee, to the conduct of a Mem be r who pers ist s in irrelevance, or tedious repetition either of his own arguments, or of the arguments used by oth e r 2657 Motor Vehicles 30TH O.EC£MB£R, 1966 load 1:-affic (Aadt.)

2658 and ie1s.
2658 and ie1s.

Mevhers iu debate, may direct him to discontinue his speech and to resume his seat.11 Mr. Speaker: I am going to invoke this Standing O rder.

Unless y ou have new matter to to this debate, please contribute take your seat rather than be asked-to take it.

I am warning you, Mr-: Persaud.

o f the t.he louse have been so quiet that the .de ba te has not been �s interesting as it should have been.
I want to refer to the Government's treatment agricultural section in this colllltry by putting forward these Agriculture Regulations.

country has suffered very man� scourges.

A few hours before·!

came here I was reading Smith's book called 7he Deserted VillaAe, and I cannot help thinking of many villages on the Ea.st Coast which have been popu­ lated for years.
in this Owen Mr. Pereaud: I have no intention of being disrespectful to your Ruling or observation, but, with all due respect to yo� I have been aaking new points that have not been made so far in this debate dealing Amendments and Road TraffiC' Ordinance.
: w ith the to the Motor Vehicles I want to say, in conclusion, time to sit down that Government must stop fooling the people in this country and let us know If the its policies.· has no concrete poli­ Government c ies, then the members of the Opposition t he Government and work out something reasonable before bringing measures before this House.
A detailed examina-- t ion of this measure will show how many important aspects deal­ vehicles are left ing with motor o ut a s w e l l as a n u mber of c ontradictions to the various sections of the Motor Vehicles a nd R oa d Tra ffic Ordinance .

Finally, the m em bers o f the Government appear to be confused over this m easure before the House.

3, !

!IJ p.m. We know that this Some of the villa.g es which the hon.

Prime Minister visited o ver the la.st week are today has deserted.
been due to the past administra­ tive policy whereby sufficient d.ttention was not given to drain.

:­ age and iITigation.

R ight now in this very serious rainy weather very heavily it bas been raining Jn the coastlands - the water, in spite of the efforts been made fifteen drain the land, has done a lot of damage to crops and properties.
: which have over the last ten or years to irrigate and - We have been t old by the of this Government, prior members to their taking office, that they would do a great deal for agri­ culture.

are prepared to give Mr, Benn: I rise to speak with some trepidation, because was not in my seat during the entire debate and I do tiot know what previous Hon.

H.mbers 011 the other side of speakers have said.


I If one looks at this document called Bighways to Happiness one ·will read a great deal abo ut circle roads.· I read it t o expose the dishonesty o f the hon.

Member who n�w calls hiaself Minister of Fina.nee.

It sets out in great detail to J11&ke a lot of ,promises to agriculture.

2'659 Motor V�icles and 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Road Traffic Regs.

(Amcit.)

2660 "[MR. J:IENP{] the Budget In his speech on o f 1964 the h on.
Minister in opposition, said -an� I am read-"­ ing fro m the speech printed, I presume, on page 3: by the Daily Chromicle, "The Minister fails to the simple fact understand that it is not taxation that makes r evenue.

It is the ability of people to pay and i f people do not have the ability to pay the revenue d rops, no matter what the 11 taxes a re.

If we apply these principles that the hon .


Minister o f Finance, then in the Opposition, advocating we would be surprised at the proposition he is now making , especially with regard t o agriculture.

w as Everyone knows about the of made by the Minister promises Finance when he was in the Oppo­ si ti on.

He said that rice farmers would get $10 more per bag of rice.

What has happened over the past years since the �inister has been in office?
The less have received rice farmers money for their rice and now, to top it all, the Governm£nt is increasing taxation farmer.

on the rice comill.g to pass.

Now that he is sittillg in the seat of a Minister he see.ms to b€ facing the very money.
problem of findin,.rr s,erious If we examine what the Gov­ ernment has done in relation to ure during the year, we agricult a great note that it promised expansion of cane farming, and then suhse�uen tly we heard very little abo u t cane farmi n g.: was passed an Ordinance Indeed, in what the Government thought was an at teapt to put cane farm­ ing on its feet.

Then we heard a great deal about b8.llana cultiva­ we tiWl and the hear nothing about bananas.
We heard about the Agricultu ra l Loans Bill and tile Rice Marketing .

(Amendment) Rill like, but now All these Lhings have hap­ pened, but what has the Govern­ ment done in the meanwhile?
Nothing, erDl!leut has come at the e nd of the year to increase from $2 to $20 -ten ti.nes the amount -the fees.- licences and to top it the Gov­ 11 for each motor tractor used solely in, or ,between� lots cultivated plantations, or farms in connection with the transfer of any agri­ cultural machinery or a ppli­ ance or produce from on e plantation, anothp..-_n lot or farm to industry.
In pig­ What has happened to rice has app ened in other sectors of the agricultural rearing the pro ble111 is very serious.

None of the promises made by the hon.

Ministe r of Finance, when in the Opposition, about circle roads and $10 a d83" and all these things seem to be industry.
: Having The Government is, therefore, taking a nother swipe at the agriculture ;reduced rice prices and removed over the past year, the duty-free concessions the Governmen t is now taking perhaps another swipe -which is not the final swipe -by increas­ ing the licence fnm $2 to $20.

given to t ractors, duty on tractors 2661 llator Vebi..eles 30TH D.ECEMBER, 1%6 � 7raifie (Amt.)

'2662 ·anr1 Rega.

t It of the use of The G overmieat C8Jlllot s ay that over the pa.st year agri­ culture has had a good time.
cannot a dmit that.· It has made plans, .and we have looked and noticed that these plans a re not coming to fruition •.

It has run into a great deal of difficulty lea of rice.

It is on the prob facing the problem of not having sufficient officers the variow.

farms that a.re in the country.


Right now, certain a reas in the country which used to produce certain types of agricultural products, that previously were iaported, a.re now •<tb a.ndoned._ The Government's policy will not help in the acceleration tura.l production.

How cau agricul t he membersrof the Governaen �ect us to visualise locally produced agricultural products in place of imported dnes when they a.re not gi vi ug any encourag ement to local agri­ cultural produce?

For instance, the hon.


Prime Minister has been saying that next Chri stma.s we will ka.ve no apple s, cabbages and so o n.: One would expect that the Governaent would bring into operation the Agricultural Bill, which it cla.iaed soae incentive to p-eople eaga.ged _in agriculture.

Loa.us would give to service aembers of the A day or two ago I ref erred of plots for to the ab11.ndon1tent the production of cabbage in the Black Bush Polder.

For the past year or two th1:!


Govermnent have sat a nd spoken, a nd have made 118.l!Y declarations about their g oo d i ntentions toward agriculture, but a.11 that has happened is that a griculture has suffered greatly at the hands of those who now sit on the seats of Government.

And, as I said, they are topping it off with this great swipe.

warned the Govern­ This is not wb.a t the Govern­ aent is doing.

It is doing the cCll{)lete opposite.

It is giving disincentives to agriculture.


: It ·is increasing duties on a.gricul­ ·ture and agricultural production.

This is a very bad policy, and f have already ment, whe n speaking o n the Agricultural Loans Bill and when speaking on the RiGe Marketing (Amendment) Bill; that it i s running a griculture to r uin.

That is what we are s eeing a t this very moment.


The country is g oing to suffer very greatly because those persons who now sit on the' seats of Government, with their great incompetence a re tinkering -or, a s one h o n. 11 • - tt-ember �a.id, are with agriculture.

fingling 11 Sittin, suspended at 4 p.m. must recognize I think that those who made th&11 is at present these Regulations t hat agricultu r e needs more a ssistance being given.
: It is inconceivable if the pr ices of agricultural produce have dropped, for t he Government to collSider increa.siitg licence duties on the implements u se d by �·persons'.

who deal i n a griculture, but tllat i s just w h.at has happ e.ned, and .it i s because t h e Government i s s o taxed for to skin a flea.

in ord-e-r hold of some aoirey.

money that it i s trying to get 4.35 p.111.


On resm,ption - - Mr. Benn: .As I was pointing out, the Governwent bas been tinlcering and "fingling", as one 2663 Motor Veh·icl es and 30TH D£CQ4BER, 1966 ioed (Amc:lt.) 7raffic ie,ts.

2664 [MR. B.ENN] Minister (Mr. Bu�) hon.

Member said, with the fut;ure of the a gricultural industry of t his country, after making a great deal of promises to the farmers.

A few days ago I read in the Guyana Graphic that the hon.
Prime promised the people living on,th� West C oast of Berbice tha.t the whole of West Coast Berbioe be drained and irrigated Now th is would be a fantastic f ea t of engineering skill and ability, and we are looking forward to seeing this accmaplish­ m en t.: Not only has the Prime Minister made promises, but the hon.

M i n i s t e r of F i n a n c e (Mr< d' Aguiar) also painted a v e ry r o sy p i cture -"Ma g i c Circle" road development.
This a ppears on page 57 of h is b ook Highways to Hap piness: would in 1967.

"The fault o f the development programme of many countries has often been an atte m pt to industrialise at ure.

the expense of agricult This has often led to a wild rush to the cities and to city plenty a midst rural poverty.

others' We can learn from mistakes.

I� a developing country agris;ulture has .three major roles to play.

They are: must 1) Agriculture s up p l y the increased.
food necessary to meet p opulation increases.

sion is required 2)Agricultural to create expan­ capital, to earn foreign exchang e, and to generate raw materials for new industries.

3)The development of.

agrieulture provide s a n important direct stimulus to overall p r osperity.

No country is prosperous unless its farmers are prosperous 11 .

The policy of the Government, over the past year or two, has brought great ruin to agriculture.
and the Minister of Finance who had made all t hese promi ses camiot go to t he farmers and tell them that he has carried out his promise of trying to make them prosperous persons.

: The hon.

Minister expansion must create capital, and in another speech he said that you cannot tax these people if they have no money.

During the year the �overmuent reduced the rice prices and, having done that, it 1s now increasing the taxation.· ' said that agricultur al The hon.
Minister of Agri­ materials a re cultivating culture (Mr. John) does not admit it, but the truth is tha t there is not e nough planting for persons.who coconuts, cHrus and the like.

: That is why the Government came here a few days ago to ask for some mo re money.
The farmers really cannot produce the things that they are expected to produce W hat the Government is doing now is not helping t he farmers, in spite of i ts oft-repea ted prom­ ises, but i t is spiting the farmers b y putting on these additional +�xes.

4.40 p.m.

If one goes on the East Ba;nk, one sees that the only things that have survived the ravages of this Government are the chicken .2665 Motor Vf!hicles 30TH OEC£MBE'K, 1966 load Traffic (Amclt.)
f666 and •e,s� f.anis and the citrus cult:ivation.· But the cabbage cultivations have all gone.

I do not think there is any on the East Bank any DDre.

One Minister, I think it was the Ministe r of Economic Develop­ ment -I do not know what he is going to be now -asked: "Why are you going to produce, if you do not have the means to sell?"

Right now cabbage is being sold a t 60� o'r 70¢ a pound.

This· country can produce cabbage.

Row, this 1s w rong.


It se•s to sugg es t t ha t b ec a us e the s e veai cles will not be 1Jsing the public roads they will have to 'pay no licence fees.

That is a wrong way to look at it bec.anse most of the e quipment used o n sugar estates, cattle farms �nd s o-called private mines al.so use the facilities which are provided at public expenst.

Let the Minister tell us, if · But while this What does the Government expect to happen w.hen it carries through all these increases?
It s ets up a Committee under Mr. Sidney King to investigate the increased cost of living and make recomendations.

is done, it is doing things w hich will send up the cost of living.

Everything will go up.

: Licences for hire cars� buses and · 1orries will machinery will also go up.

: This is not a sensible policy.

I t seems to me that the Governaen t thinks the Guyanese people are a group of stupid children.

go up.
go up.

Agricultural I hope that the hon .. Minister o f Finance and the whole Gov­ ernment will reconsider their decision not to increase the cost o f licences f or tractors which are used in cultivating plots and f arms.
In another part of the Schedule it is stated that: or trailer, �(b) no licence shall be required for any moto r vehicle, .if used only within the bounds of any sugar cane plantation, wood­ cutt i ng grant, cattle farm, lot o r farm under cultivation cocoa estate, rubber estate, private gran t, mining or placer claim; 11 g rant, or a occurs on a p rivate an accident fa.rm, a wood-cutting rubber or cocoa estate, if the public has to go to any expense in investigating-this.
If the - police have to go to investigate this, and if death results, does e.post mortem examination be_performed?

Since public funds will have to be expended for the maintenance of this farm, wood­ cutting grant, etc,:, it is wrong not to require licences for these vehicles.
: have to How is it that a rice farmer with a plot, say, in Black Bush pay $i-O a Polder will have to y ea r for h i s t r a c t or , or a provision farmer at Na.amryck will have to pay $20 for his machine, but the sugar producers will not h ave t o pay for new tractors because, presumably, they do not have to go on the public road?

lt is quite unfair because they go to the nuclear scheme, and on many occasions they come out on the public road.
: In many cases the police and Government · offi­ cials have to go into the estate to investigate accidents as a" Tesult of the working of these vehicles, for the Government to continue t he policy of not aakin1 the owners of_ these vehicles PAY.

and it is quite wrong 2667 �tor Veliiclea 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 A:.m 7rmfic (Aadt.)

2668 .lqs.

and [MR. BENN] I wish that the lt:>n.

Minister ?f Finance will review the steep on agriculture in this increase country by the i111position of $20 a year for a licence.
He should also review th.is decision in the sense that those peo�le who can p a y - the sugar plantation owners, the people who own t he bauxite industry, and so on - should be made to pay.

I hope that the Minister will do some­ thing about it rather than pass­ ing it in the :manner in which it is before the House.

: Mr. d' �iar(replying): Mr. Speaker!

tl:e re are some p eople whose minds are so evil that they cannot - - Mr. llulaard: To a point of order, sir.

Mr. Speaker: What is the point of order?


Mr. Hubbard: The point of order is that the front bench Members on this side have not s poken and the Min i s ter i s "anticipating."

We are bein..,.

railroaded.. 6 ',Ir.

Speaker: I rule that the Minister is on the Floor.

Mr. d' Aguiar: There are some people whose 10inds are s o evil that they cannot b elieve that anyone else's mind is not� [Interruption by the hon.

MembPr Ur.

ffubbard.


Mr. Speaker: Mr. H ubbard, if you continue to interrupt I w ill ask you to leave this Chamber.

Mr. d' Aguiar: I am reminded of the saying.

and the philosophy: "To the swi11e all thing s are swinish.11 The first speaker, the hon.

- I hesitate to use t�l!

llOrd -·!r.

Luck.

.said that when a Minister of Government a.ssumes­ his positin, the Americ8D system should be followed, a system -which he-se.ems to think does not apply i.n England, that is, if a.
Minister holds sh.ares in compan­ ies he should place them in th� hands of trustees.

It may be.­ beyond the aind of Mr. Luck to believe that since I assumed the duties of Minister of Fina.nee that is exactly what I did.

ill s ha r e s that I h eld in local were t ransferred to coJ1.panies trustees.

Tlte saae speaker •ade the point that these Regulations would be of great benefit, that they -..o.ul.d reduce the amount of licence duties payable b y the firms witk which I was fo!

'llerly associated.
'llerly associated.

I t, t h erefore, becomes 11ecessary for me, sir, to state the facts in soae little detail in this House.

One Jle!lber of the United Foree Party in this House w8Jlted to take up this point so he got the officials of d 'Aguiar Bros. Ltd., a company w ith which I was associated, to prepare full details o f t he present licence d uties that they now pay, and what they will have to pay if these Regulations were passed.

4.50 P• ID•.
4.50 P• ID•.

I am goi ng to g i ve these facts, which can be very easily checked and verified to the House.

Fir s t, ther: are 75 vehicles in that Comp any .

B&1k Brewries Limited do not use trucks, because everyone knows �.hat d 'Aguiar Bros. °Lbni ted d o the truckiP�.

T he licence pain for the "\>arious vehicles are as follows: ·2669 Motor Vehicles 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Road 7raf£ic ( Amctt.)

2670 Re�s.
2670 Re�s.

and Present Rate New It-ate 6 Bantam carriers 5 Morris Vans 1 Morris Van marked "X" which can go on railway routes $ 50.00 50.00 300.00 $300.00 200.00 1 Bedford Pickup 1 Bedford Pickup marked "X" which can go on railway routes 50.00 120.00 $200.00 (This is a reduction) 200.00 200.00 1 Land Rover 24 5-ton lorries which are licensed for Georgetown 62.50 200.00 120.00 300.00 9 5-ton lorries marked "X" which can go on railway routes .1 Bedford van 3 Station Wa"gons 300.00 5 0.00 47,50 '300.
00 200.00 200.00 1 Bedford Van marked "X" which can go on railway routes 5 Tractor trailers 9 Trailers 2 Vauxhall cars 5 Vauxhall cars car 1 Chevrolet 300.00.

120.00 20.00 32.00 .47.

50 72.50 300.00 3.00,00 25.00 42.00 -60.00 75.00 the Minister with which he was formerly per 00 -which is $16,790.

The total is $8,491.00 annum, but the total the company w ill have to pay if this Motion is pass·ed is nearly double the amount.
This is the work of of Finance who, according to mem­ bers of the Opposition, has amen­ ded the Regulatio ns to help the lfirm· associated c rease to almost double the amount of $8,491.00.

These are the they c an be c h e cked by the Licensing Officers ernment.

This belies the great­ yr part of what was presented to this House by members of t he Opposition.
: this House believe t h at t he official figures, and They wanted to make by causing of the Gov­ them to in­ owners of certain goods vehicles were going to receive preferen­ tial treatment.

: Now the officers of the Gov­ have presented me w it h ernment the statement which shows what the anticipated is total revenue going to be in each category and what it is·.,now.

revenue collec ted o n goo ds vehicles is $197,000.
·new rates it is anticipated that ,the increase will be $220,000 .a substantial increase.

At present the With .the - The biggest increase has been p l aced o n the typ e of goods vehicle mainly used by the firm whic h I have just because the increased ra:IB has no't m entioned 2671 llotor ¥elucles 30TH D£CEll9ER.

191i6 a.al 7raffic ("'-1:t.) 2672 and LR.

o•AGUIAR_J business hi re is a vehicle for hire as for private b ee� applied as much to g oods vehicles.

goods vehicles.
goods vehicles.

: The reason for this is that a goods vehicle for trade is a vehicle used i n the p ursuit of legitimate and profit, and a private goods vehicle for used in the pursuit of legitimate profit or legitimate business.
It does not seem logical that one should discriminate in favour of the goods vehicle for trade, so that in this case the owner of a goods vehicle for trade pays the same and does not receive pre­ ferential treatment in spite of the f a c t that I have bee n associated main means of vehicles for trade �nd privately owned.

with compH.Ilies whose· transport is goods The point was 1118.de that there �- a.s a 5-ton truck, and i t was .assuaed that that was its p�load.
It i s not a precise aeans that yon can aeasu.re; it was aerely an ,a.s9111{)tiOD that the aa.nnfacturers )mew the capacity of their trucks.

It lla-s been found that ·some manufacturers produce d ifferent estimates for the same type of t:nick, and some trucks have been unable to carry t he payload advertised - soae of them carry a lower payload.

This anomaly can best be remedied i( you base it on the unladen weight which nobody can d ispute.
The v ehicle can be taken to a s cale, weighed-and tested, an d nobo d y can argue about the weight.

Therefore it Wa.5 a very reasonable and proper request; it is in conforai t_y with th� law, and contrary to what the former Minister, the hon.

Member Mr. R8.lll iarran, has said �he sys�e• is the one nsed throughout ·the world.
Officers have and personal� allegations m. One can hardly find any ooun­ was some sinister idea behind the d ecision to change the old system of fixing the duty on the payload instead of the unladen weight of the goods vehicle.

All kinds of .

5 ·p sinister were made regarding this change.

: wnat is the position?


The Police and the Licensing requested that it would be easier lec1.ion of revenue if for the co] the duties were payable o n the u nladen weight of the vehicle, which could How can they measure the payload of a vehicle?
They 'IIOUld have to take an imaginary figure, and they pointed out that payload is The increase in revenue is causing them some difficulty, estimated at $400,000to be de­ only means af testing rived as follows: The increase because the licences ll-i.11 the payload was b y verifying according to the advertisements produce $220,000, �nich is more published regarding the :maximlllll than h alf of the total.

The type of argument has been adduced t h at, payload of a particular in goods truck.
The manufacturers a.dver-because I am interested tised a P.articular type of trock _ vehicles, I deliberately reduced try wnere the system of taxing by "payload" is used.

Basically the eystem of paying licence fees on "unladen weight" is used, because tax officers can weigh vehicles and check the weight.

They can­ not check the "payload"; that is iB{)OSSible.

it in goods vehicles be measured bv them.

2673 Approval of .

30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Financi.

al Paper 2674� The •embers of the the duty.


: Opposition have had time to study they have not these proposals; criticised us for not giving them time.

Perha.rs they have deliber­ ately not studied them.

The f act of the matter is that a great number of goods v ehi­ cles are n ot operating on the railway routes, that is, on the East and West Coasts.
The non­ railway routes, the East Bank, West Bank, Corentyne and New Am­ s terdam, where very low rates of duties are paid - from $30 for a :van operating in Georgetown �ere the majority of the vehicles are - contain more than ten times the total of all vehj.cles in the other a reas put together.

Consequenily, when the rates are raised on the non-railway routes the revenue is raised considerably.

[!nterrup- · ti on ..• =._ .

- the cost of transportation for the poor man.


: Contrary to what the members of ·the Opposition tried to make out, the bus coi.­ panies do not make lavish for­ tunes.

: Unlike the goods vehicles they are limited to the fares t hey can charge; the bus fares are fixed and cannot be exceeded.· It i s not desirable that they· should be given an opportunity approach Government transporta t i o n charges to be raised.

: For this reason, that isJ to protect those who cannot'afford.
to use other means of tra.nsporta.­ tion, the licence duty on buses was not increased.

I think that is reasonable.- to to ask for The answer to the hon.· Mem­ hire cars.

: That ber is: Why do ·they not· read what is before them?

Why is the hon.

: Member's mind so evil that he must impute evil.

The next highest raise in duty is oiil motor ·c ars, including is expected to produce an addi­ tional $125,000.
The · increase in duty on motor-cycles the.licence is estimated to produce o nly $15, 000.: The increase on special service and other v ehicles is expected to produce $40,000.

: Al­ together they make ·the total of $400,00 0 which .is estimated as the increase in revenue.

: on not been chan ged.


: The Much was aade of t he fa.ct that, by and large, ·the duties buses have r eason is obvious, because, if that had been ment would have been held against to raise us that we were going changed, the argu­ A point was made by the hon.

Member, Kr.

Benn - I aust admit that he w a s o n e o f t he f e w speakers who spoke in a really parliamentary aanner, and such a speaker deserves some attention.
: l think he was the only Keaber who did not find evil mo tives in t h is m e a s u re and impu t e·t h e motives to a particular individ­ ual.. · He has driwn attention to the increase on the licence duty on tractors from $2 per a.nnua to ,$20 per annum.

: Now, the owner of & bicycle pays $2 per annum and the bicycle costs him-about:$100.

: The duty then is 2 per cent of the cost_.

: H� p ays a n i•port duty on the·bicycle of 20 a.nd 40 per cent.
: Compare him with the o wner of a tractor, a man who pa;ys out $2,000 to buy a· tractor.· Must he a.l.so pay $2 per a.nnua as l icence duty on the trac tor?

In the first instance, he obtains the tractor free of duty.

Must we sa;y that a.

11&11 who ca.n a.ff ord $2,000 cannot afford to pay aore than the owner of a bicycle as licence duty?

2675 Motor Vehicles 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Road Traffic (Aznci t.) 2676 Regs.
and [MR. D' AGUIAR] It seems reasonable that of any kind -sugar, rice they remain and are not used raising the licence duty on a tractor to $20 is removing an old anomaly, an anomaly which began when there were, perhaps, only two to fiv e t ra ctors in this There were three ways country.· of dealing with tractors.· First they were exempt from licenc� duty.

Tractors run freely on estates and so on -provided on the estates outside.

: I do not see any reason why that provision should not remain.
: The question Why do they not pay?

the Opposition This has been happening years.

It is nothing are introduc ing; it is the rule that we found and it remains.· It is a fair a nd reasonable If a man is buying a vehicle and is not going to his estate, if it is basically for agricultural ·use, he pays nothing.

If he runs it outside, liable to tax.

it becomes Why did not make them pay?

run it outside of is asked: for seven new that we rule.· 11r.
Ram Karran, has said·, I know of no other country which differ­ entiates i n l icence d uties between the users of different roads.

There are differences some countries which r elate basically and things like that, but trade vehicles pay one rate of licence duty.

In normal and J?roper it now.· are introducing most countries it is practice.
We to franchises for buses in The members of the Opposition s eem in one breath to desire change and in another breath they want to stick to the antiquated colonial past.

I think we must not be afraid to modernise and bring about changes.

[Interrup­ tions.]

No matter how much hon M embers speak about big shots, the fact hardest on owners of goods ve-­ hicles for trade and, according t o members of the Opposition, these are the big shots.

I now c om me n d t h i s Motion t o t h e Assembly.
is that the duty falls Question put .. Mr. Speaker: The Ayes have Mr. Persaaui: Division!

to it.

plantation In the second case, there is a rate of $20 if a man is trans­ p orting from one another.

In the third case, the full· duty is paid if the tractor i s to be used freely on the pub­ lic road,: The duty there is at least $120.
The farmer who is confining the use of to f a rm i n g and u se b e twee n e states is well protected from the user of a vehicle on the road for trade and other purposes his tractor .

5.10 p.m.

I pointed out that different there were twenty-seven rates and they were reduced to five for the benefit of all concerned.

Con­ trary to what the hon.

: Member, Mr. Speaker: Do you want a division, Mr.: Luck?

Mr. Luck: I think my hon.

Friend Mr. Persaud a Division.


: has called for Mr. Speaker: · Do you want a Mr. Persaud?

Division, 2677 .Approval of 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Financial Paper 2678 Assembly Noes.

)8., as follows: divided: Ayes 24, point is tha., the hon.

hinister stated, in this House, that the sum of -- Ayes Noes Wilson Mr. Persaud Mr. Linde Mr. Wharton Mr. Saffee Rev.

Trotman Dr. Ramjohn Mr. Singh Mr. Sancho Mr. Field-Ridley 'Mr.
Ally Mr. Carrington Mr. Khan M:r. Lall Mr. Budhoo Mr. Blair Mr. Luck Mr. Too-Chung Mr. Hamid Mr. Joaqu,ixi Mr. Mr. Duncan Dr. Ramsahoye Mr. Clarke Mr. Nunes Mr.

Bowman Dr. Jacob Mr. deGroot Mr. Hubbard Mr. Merriman Mr. Ram Karran Mr. Kasim Mr. Benn Mr. Jordon Mr. Chase Mr. John Dr. Jagan - 18 Mrs. Gaskin Mr. Correia Mr. Cheeks Mr. Bissember Mr. d'Aguiar Dr. Reid 24.

Mr. Speaker: Are you rising on a point of order?

Dr. Ramsahoye: .

Yes.

Mr. Speaker: On what?

Dr. R•sahoye: On this Mo­ tion.


: I wish to say that this Paper cannot be-considered in its present form because it does not d istinguish between what monies have been already spent and what monies are now to be spent.
I refer to Article 111(3) of the Constitution which states: (3) If i n respect of any f inancial y ear it is found - 11 (a) that the amount by the Appropri­ ap�ropriated ation Act for any purpose is insufficient or that a need has arisen for expenditure for a purpose for which no amount has been appropriated by that Act; o r Motion carried.

APPRlVAI.. Of FINANCIAL PAPER NO.

6 OF 1966 1 1 Be it r esolved that the C o mmitt e e of S upply •the proposal set approve of out in Financial Paper No.
6 of 1966 -Schedule of Addi­ t ional P rov is io n o n the Current and for the p er io d e nd in g December, 1966, totalling $1,516,400.

of Finance.]

Capital Estimates [1he Minister 11 Dr. Raasaheye: I wish to ris� on a point of order.

My (b)that any moneys any have been.


expended for purpose 1n exce�s of the amount appropriated for that purpose by the Appropriation Act o r for a p u rpose for whi ch no amount h as b een appropriated by that Act, a supplementary estimate or, as the case may be, a staie­ ment of excess showing the sums required or spent shall 11 be laid before the Assembly.
I understand this to :me.a.a that if the money has already been spent in excess,· tie Minister 2679 30TH DECEMBER , 1966 [DR. RAMSAHOYE] should come with a statement of excess.

If the Minister sees -that the amount he has voted is inade­ quat e, he ca.n coae for s suppl� m entary provision, but so long as he has spent o ver the amount voted, he must lay a statement of excess.

In this case, the hon.

Minister has said to us that soae of the mon ey has been spent and some has been committed.

The hon.
The hon.

Minister should tell us what m onies have been spent for those of excess.

will go in a statement The monies that are co111Ditted but n ot spent will go on a supple­ mentary estimate because that part has n ot yet been spent.
two fa.pers can then be laid in this llonse in pursuance of Art­ icle 112(.2) which states: Assembly under para­ n (2) Where a supple­ o r statement mentary estimate of excess is laid before the National graph (3) o f the preceding article or paragraph (2) of the next following article and is appr oved by t h e by resolution, that Assembly resolution for the issue of the sums in Consol­ question from the idated Fund, hut the aggre­ gate sums the issue of which is s o approved shall be Bilder appropriate included, heads, in a supplementary Appropriation Bil}.
"· shall be authority The Minister must divide this money.• In so far as monies have been expend e d , the Minist e r should lay a statement of excess in w h i c h h e shows tha t the expenditure h as exceede d the voted provision by such a.mo1at.

: In so far as the Minister money to pay outstanding accounts then he requires to produceto this House a supplementary es­ timate which is different from a statement of excess.· A statP.ment of excess is where h·e has alre ady excee.ded the expenditure.
A is where supplementary estimate he wishes authority to spend in the future.

needs The hon.

Minister has t o 1,d us that s ome o f this mon ey has been illegally spent or committed.

In s o far as i t is i ll eg a lly spent, he should have a statement of excess before the House.
In s o far as i t is committed - 11 11c om111itted • m eans that i t is committed but not yet paid a.nd he wishes to pay -he must, there­ fore, put that in the foI'JI of a supplementary estimate and the I say that the lti.nister can­ not, in one Paper, provide for a.mounts spent in excess as well as for a.n::iunts not yet paid.

In so far as the 8.lllOunts are not yet paid, he n eeds a supplementary estimate.
In s o f ar as the 8JllOUilt s have been paid beyond the voted provision, he n eeds a statement of excess.

Having regard to his own statement, he cann o t move a Motion for the approval of a Schedule of Addi­ That would be tional Provision.· quite wrong and.that would be beyond the powers whi ch are conceded in the Constitution.· to lay a state..: The Minister has and he has to lay ment of excess., estillla.te.

a supplementary Mr. Speaker: Can this be reg ard e d as a supplementary estimate?
Dr. Raasabeye: Not having regard to his statement that some is already spent� In s o far as x2681 .Approval of , 3:>TH DECEMBER, 1966 Financial Paper 2682:x We should to this House fear for those the United Force, anci The Government measures when they come "Mr. Raa Karr an: He has al­ lhe Oiairaan: Page 2.: Mr.
Lack: What appears on surprise House.· Only of sum of $1.5 million had spent, or ready expressed who support a large number of them have al­ ready either resigned or have been demoted.· s hould give.membe r s of the Opposition a n opportun ity to discuss before this House.· have had a debate on Government's policy in relation of subjects of Ministers putting Establishment under the of the hon.

Prime Minis­ control ter.

: [An lloa.

Member (Govern­ ment): "Is that relevant?"]


It is relevant, because at Atkinson Field, who went on strike for their rights, should not be terrified m embers o f the Govern m e n t , p articularly the hon.

: Br·ime Minister.· to the change under the portfolios and the question this page is the biggest I have had in this two days ago the hon.
:Minister Finance intimated that the either been unlawfully had been unlawfully committed to b e spen·t _and that he Pe·tex:., Stanisl_aus d 'Agui.ar permit himself to be so used �s to bring a Schedule Pr6vision �o cover �he $1.-5 million, view that that was not a right and proper thing to do.

Two days after we see the same gentleman, without making a single word of apology, or excuse, tion, presenting a Financial Paper to this House for $1.5 million!
or threatened of Additional it was his or explana­ the people because would not of by I am sure that I am right in that this sum of $1.5 is - [Interruption.]

I protection of the assuming million must crave-the C hair i n order to develop a point of very great importance.

I .wish at this stage, before hon.

: Minister of Finance which he faces effect will not only between I take my seat, to sympathize with the in the difficulty in this matter.
I h9pe that the decision, which seems to have been made, that consultat�ve democracy be put into be discussed the hon.· Prime Mini�ter and the hon.· Minister of Finance, but that t his House will have an opportunity every­ thing before these changes take place - changes which are diff­ e rent from what obtain in any other part of the wotld.· the United Kingdom, Establishment comes under the control of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I caun o t see why this change should be made in this country without or in consultation Minister reference: to this.House, with the hon.
: of discussing of Finance.

Even in The Claainao: Order.

Mr. Luck: I was saying that this tequest committed is in connection of money unlawfully provides that there over Govern­ one must assume that for $1.5 million with the sum spent or unlawfully to be spent.

: .

The Constitution of this country should be control ment spendint and that this control should be exercised this House.
: The way this control is exercised is explained in the Budget Debate, and if more money is spent than is budgeted for, a statement of excess �hould be submitted to the Rouse.

If a by � 6 83- Approval of 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 FinancjaJ P�r 2684 .

_ say that he should resigh.

There, are other consil!lerations in this matter.

: I slroald lik-e t'° give the of Fivmc-e _ great t. · le has tried to give us hon.
: Minister · c-redi pro:per d<eta-ils i» this aat t�r, and hse simald ff �T'tulated for do-ing so.· 111 the Current Estimates far 1� we �-1md€r ,.225.000 for i.his Head a sua of $2 the East Coast ftJAds� .-d we al.so have u11der tbis 11-ea.d for the wiro.le J,l,ew;l• 1J · mt PN.gJ:W for 1966-a to.w.

� 811 r.oMS in ·the ms n"f M. S .uliem .

·nae ·total awoaB-t -tc be spent on the East Coast roed llri-ween 1966 U. ;.

million.

The and 1970 is .

.

·the year aoney to be spent for 1966 wa..s J:2 ,:225, 000.
[MR. LlJCK::;l particular vote i s exhauste� the Government must com-e to this House by way, of a stateme:11t of excess or a ref}Be'st for addi­ tional provisions._ iU�ly All ftemltfI'I''S of this fla,11:.se must be diSUtl'bMI -·wlte.n a � sible l'tiv:is-ttrr c0f Fimm-£� - w� must assmaie tifat he is-� sible - iufonis Olis �- i.n a prepared -si..at-l!'llll!

!Di that there is the greatest -do»bt n relalicm to the � of $1.

j ai-ll.ma,.
j ai-ll.ma,.

aad two days lat.er lite 'ft'tm'BS to tire House and asks vs to '11Jt-e Ure $1.5 11tillimr wit:!D .as or milawfally Slp'Si.· 'file Diree­ tor of Audit i.. tiiea.

Cft.tie'.d nto the -.tter.

lo .

..,.i.iGD WIiii � of the Crime Ghifl ,.

bat., :mp-licit in tbe callh:g' in e:f t1l!f!

tinctor of Audit, we see all sorls of i Jal)licatio11s �e stat1i!ld8t of ·i.ill!
',t»cm ... fflaister of FiU8B'e-e t• ,� • m�r..; 1-t there are ·Sierious irN'gm:.ari1HIIS, which demar,n:l cl:arific.ation aad a public inquiry so tnt we ·-l!lay .all know h ow the money �s s.p-e.nt.· For this reasOOl almie, I would vote against tiris ltpfJrnpriatiffll.. .. : Clea::rly Once more, particularly in of the Ckair so th.at I view of the pre'!ieuce of the Prime Mini ster, I must crave the indulgence way develop aaount allocated was $2, 22 5, 000, �t 1-w lll'U!cii has been sp-ent year for this .l:&wflllly e-r aJ..aw:£11Uy my poil:1t.· The total I cannot 1'el1> thllliki ng that on thi s :road?
Tlie s1n11 cf either the h.o-n. ffill.is:ter of $4,725,000 .

: Dari:ltg the debate on boih Capii.al and sta:teurent the Estimtes, Finance made a corre:et -still Curren t, we were told that the two days ago, by w:hic:h he Prog� was the stands, in which case it is Development to ask us to vote result of serious work, 'bnt in inconceivable this $1.5 mill ion, or l>e 111ade an J one year incor r e c t o r irresponsible spent on a �ro�ect tllat s.hould 1966 to statement.

are possible.
are possible.

two days ago represents state of affairs, this Motion should not he brought before this Bouse today.· If.

p.nfortune.tely, sponsible stateaent, "then I will this fact and because of the irregular with this project that the mind of Finance of the hon.

: Minister $4.

7 l!

'il,liou :has bee;p cost $4.


5 1!J�lhon from If his statement 1970.: the true then cle,arl:y It is perhaps on account of of the talk ities connected Only two conclusions be made an irre­ 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Ti Rllnc.ial Paper 2686 .

it.

is already spat 1 lie ha.s to lay a. s-t&tEIIB!eDt ef excess.

In so far as he :bas not yet spent bu:t he m fJ0IIDlli.tted, he needs a snpplemei:rt.ary esti111a t e. 1'he Moti'OD is fltiY ftN'iDg - 5.20:p. 11.
• Sf ee.l&e-r: lour ·s u b­ missioa is ta.at Jae Ms not had both-.

• Speek-er: Objection o .• e r­ ruled..

Proceed please.

Aea-,,:,!,ly ifl Coamlttee of S..,.l y •.

•· .a�""8ia-: ID -tems of Art.iele ,S-0 (2) of -the Constitu­ i.ian I t,q ·to lay on -tlae 'fable i.°H Cat.net's sipifica:Uon of a.ppro11&l -tae.-t ·this Motion b-e p0nteM4M .tta.

I heg ·to •ove i.11-e Jhrtimi: "Drat t.ae C.-ittee of �1,y lllpf>Teve Gf ._he p ropo-· sa)s s�t oat i• Financial 1>�r No.
j of 1� -Scned­ ul e ef ..._itioa•J Provision mil �ae C.TFellt aad Capit.aJ Es U:1ru1t e s !or tile period t!

'Jl ding December 1966 toWliag.Sl� si, .

..c.oo: II.

1 ·"Be it.

resolved that tee of Supply t.h-� Co111111i t 81lfJN'Ve of dte proposals set ..,.t n fine9eial P.per No.

6 of 1966 - Sdtedul-e of Addi­ t.i .oa• l Provision 011 the C.'!

'Nm t- asd Capi t.a.l &ti,ma tea for the period ead.iag De­ c«r:eer, 19�6.

totalling $1,516,400.


n � --14 lte two •Lins: 9ae for a s�t of excess., an.d one fur S1111P1-Bn t.ary provi.SM>n.

MIBCfWI..MMIIGN Clfll.

A*l .\'fl9N - •· tP ...... : I shOllld lik� to reply.

'Ta.e hon.

Keat>eT tr.

� smald be well .ware tit&t,, �Tti'!II to tlte Fildeial i-e�tioits ,ad to the tenas or tJle Coa!SUUi.it>tl, U-spe&t" --.aBS speit .ur aJDitt.t.

Taa.1.

is tile rllle ia -�t.


Tlle wte is · ex�ded nt only \then you spend the 11i.01t-ey, for instance, o n wages, b�t from the so111ent you , contnc� 1.t out to purchase goods on credit.

The whole of this sum of $1i million is spent in tems of The aecordanC€ with ·the Cons ti tut ion of Guyana.

'Ihere can only be one statement of excess; it is an excess of money spent and i-t means 11cotnmiti.ed and/or spent."

•· ._.&err.-: One does no� Minister i, know wllethBr � hon.
gomg to ivvite us tomorrow, Old Year's Day, to pass ·another­ Estimate!

Ou (page one of this Financial.

Paper, we are asked to provide the sum of $16,400 for the payment of overtiae allow­ ances to the �ersonnel of the Aerodrome Fire Service for the period 1st March, 1963 to�� 1963 L Deomber, 1963.
Since 2 (i88:x xx2687 Approval of -30TH DECEMBER, 1966Financial Paper RAN] [MR. RAM KAR _ y because of but callous men, w ho people in 1963 and 1964 honourc:1,ble 'Called ou,t the people on strike in 1962, allegedl heavy taxation, who called out innocent in th& words of my hon.

Friend, Mr.: Peter d 'Aguiar, %0 fight communism"· have withheld-f rom these firemen the very small sum of $16,400, [Mr. Jordan: "Why go on st!'i_ke.

did you not pay them?

ll] We will deal with the question later on.


: and allowed them to of payment the hon.

, and so on._ Naturally, Some firemen had been working even before 1957 when M�n�ster.

of.

Trade, Shipping a n d Civil Aviation, whose head is now r?lled� was in .charge of Atkinson Field in the days of the Interim Government.

He had these ·firemen not only 16 hours a day working but they had to perform addi­ tional duti e s a s t e le phone operators · this was corrected tic working-class Government.
But those hard-hearted on that side of the H ouse who said at the street corners that the� wer� the s aviours of the working class, have withh eld this money from the men.

But that is not all.

I s hould like Your the Hansard Honour to read in wha� these hon.
Gentl�en were sayi� about .the workers, c?nsider their with respect to the firemen.· and to attitude gentlemen present by a sympathe­ The hon-: Prime Minister, who is absent from his seat, had the temerity, as he had in the case o f Cendrecourt, t o threaten workers who had been carrying out trade union principl not a question 11as been using threats es.
It was of politics.· against a He with the P .P .P., and tti.ngle individ:ual because of his association these are the things that we have fears about all been expressing t hese m onths.· We c a n n ot b e assured that fhis Government w hi c h is alleg edly bas ed o� consultative democracy, is going t o c a r ry out the p rinciples based on a democratic society.

: .The hon.· Minister of Finance very grave concern in the Ministry.
: I on Head 32 for which has expresse·d- about changes refer to what has been mentioned in the Press.
I would appeal to for your assistance.· I you, sir, am speaking t he a dditional provision·now sought is $16,400.· This is from Personal Emoluments,.and relevant to say that the Minister who is in charge of finance is now afraid -he has so expressed himself -that that section is going to be transferred from his Ministry Minister, chief terrorist His name heads the l ist.-You know what 'list' I am referring to, sir·.- to that of the Prime the chief puppet, the in this country.
it is Deve-lopment.· in this covntry at the has The hon.· Prime Minister himself referred to the speech in r elation to the Ministry of What is Ecor.omic happening �oment is that people who seem to h�ve leanings or are in sympathy with the U.F., or the P.P.P., or who.

see.m to express no great admiration being ditched.

Mr. Peter d'Agu iar, cannot deny that he has himself expressed fear.

for the P.N.c.· are My hon.

Friend, 5.30 p.m.

The Chairman: Where is that us?


leading 2689 Approval of · 3)°™ DECEMBER.

196 6 Financial'P.aper 2690 to state whrlher-this S1.5 111il­ lion, iwhicb is either spent or comtii.i.ed, would be sufficient to complete the whole East Coast road now?

Would he get up and -this after­ make that statement noon, so tla.t we can have a clear pos ition as to whither we are going?
a Pa.per dealing with excesse�, but I know that, in view of the urgency which the Governaent faces in getting ·this over this a fternoo n, p erhaps m y h o n.· Friends on the opposite s ide m ight have thought 111.ight have been another delaying and stalling tactic, but this is uot so.
that this control administrative and control over the Minis­ It s� to •e that t.h,e very request for this w:n1ey, the way in which it is being pre�nted as excess, is clearly evidence of lack of prop-er finflncial by the Minister of Finance, and I blame the Ministry of Finance for what is taking place here today.

I blame the Ministry of Finance for failing to exercise proper budgetary, financial It try of Works and Hydraulics.
is impudence for the Minister to tell us that he rejected this Secre­ request tery of the Ministry of Works and Hydraulics b ecause he felt that the expenditure was illegal or the c01ffflli tment of the expenditure was ille gal, and.

then , in the same breath, to be asking us, without even making a statement as to· the true position, provision.

just shortly after, by the Permanent to pass this what is If we are being asked to surely, of $1!
million, to details.· On approve we are entitled what is this money being sp.ent?

Is it on materials, sand1 Is it.

in respect of bitumen?

ls it sup­ with regard to electrical plies?

Is it with regard to substance?

Where is this -.oney going?

Is it to fulfil certain c ontracts which were entered this year I told into?
Earlier the Minister that there -was a lot of corruption taking place in the Ministry of Works a.nd Hydraulics, that people were passing 1110ney to get contracts c ontracts in the departaent.· Those accusations for sand and other still remain.· This is a s erious matter the extra million which because was passed was passed to cover work which we lcnow has already b�en.

done.

: What is this $1.5 million now being' requested for?

It does not add anything The sum of $1!

million is requested, and only 3!


lines of e xpla nation are given in the legend.

: to the fact that it is stated at the to-p of the page that this is a statement tional covering provisio n re­ quired.

· The 3!

lines of explana­ tion in the legend do not give us and any additional information, point I wanted to have taken the that the way in which this Paper on excess was presented did not conform with the requirements of excess and addi­ of I understand that the Direc­ .
which was given tor of Audit was called in, a.nd he 1nade a Report to the Minister.· ·It would b e very revealing tothis,House to know what the Director of Audit bas had to say.· H as the Director· of Audit's Report raised some implications from which it became n ec e s s a ry t o have criaina( investigations a this aa.tter� or- 6. po p. !D•.

2691 Approval of 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Financial Paper 2692 !MR.
CHASE] a nd does not that some offi­ has it revealed cials of the Ministry of Works a nd Hydraulics have exceede d their a uthority and have been s pendin g m o n e y without the necessary a pproval from that Ministry or from the Ministry Finance?

Where does the Director of Audit's Report lay the This is very important.
e ntitled to hear from the Minis­ ter what of Audit had to say in his Report,: Even if he does not have time to lay it, because ·this is being done in a rush, we are e ntitled to be t reated with the courtesy of being infonned what the Director of Audit has had to: say in re­ spect of this expenditure.

It i s a matte r o f s ome 2oncern that the Minister of just sits Works a nd Hydraulics down in his.seat even offer an explanation in this matter.

Perhaps it is, as my hon.


Friend at this end of the that if he were to Table shouted, open his mouth he might well be implicated.

If his hands are clean, I invite him to get up and let us k n ow what this is all about.

May I say that if he c o ntinues to keep his seat and say nothing, I am one who will be leaving here this afternoon firm in my view that this Minister in some way implicated .in the excesses which we have been asked to approve.

any time.

[1'1r, Kasim: "Well, go out and say it."]


I can repeat this the Director blame?

We are of is of.

In any has attempted I have said, and I repeat, that this House is being treated It is contemp­ with contempt,: tuous for the Government to ask this House to approve of another $1i million without attempting in a ny way to tell us what this money is in respect case the Minister to retract from a statement which he made a few days ago, and that If this is very unsatisfactory.
is money already spent, could he not have r e a d t o u s at the b eginning of the debate the v arious Heads of expenditure If this which this sum covers?

House is sense of reeponsibility, we are e ntitled to know , since it is money already spent, where it has been spent.

If it is illegally spent, the Minister should also i nform us how the illegality arose� He ought to have told us whether it was s pe nt without authority or whether the Minister himself is involved.
to be treated with some Let us not get into circles we want to get at the about slander.

If the Minister wants to make a clean breast of it, let him get up here a nd now and tell us that he is in no way c oncerned with these excesses because bottom of this matter.

This is an important Paper.

: It is the first Paper of this kind that has been brought to this House.

All requests to the other Papers are meet expenditure.
: This is a statement of excess under Article 112 of our Constitution; fo1·e tliere­ it is a matter which should very, very seriously be ·treated ind ee.d ,.

and I hope that the _ � M1n1ster concerned some sense of obli_gati sense of duty to this House and to the public, and get up and make his position clear in this ,atter.
will feel on, some Now, let me finish with the of Works and Hydraulics Minister because he is not going to get up 2693 Approval of 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Financial Paper 2694 as well a.s rascality.

I want to believe that both improvid enoe and rascality are involved in this matter before us.-How can anyone in· all conscien $4.7 when there is an allocation of $2.2 million?

ce, spend I shall vote against this, members of $4.7 million million must have somewhere.
It is· and I invite thinking t he G o ve rnment t o inquire, Whither are we drifting?

Surely a matter of spending instead of.$2.2 been canvassed common knowledge that no serious discussion takes place at Cabinet meetings.

The Prime Minister faces his opposite number and says, "These are my decisions."

[Laughter.]

nothing of the majority party.


At some place or other these be discussed, inanities the Cabinet a serious of senior members of during debate on such matters must and I deplore the is discussed at meetings We also know that matter.

to be honest and of what he said.

this effect, "I of Finance and bubbled over at the thought of the fraud involved and two days ago he decided said, "Look here, I have been doing this thing too long".
: That is a p�raphrase His words were to have been Minister I have been lumping excessive exp en di ture, unlawful with additiona today I shall stand up like a man and I shall not do so.· I pos­ itively refuse to request $1.5 million".· He was right, and he had the courage of his convic- tions.
: l provisions, but this expendi_ture I do not question the diff­ in establishing where it is where prosper­ iculties involved peace and prosperity in· this country.· I would hope that there are other countries e asier to build a new society based on justice, ity will extend ·to a ll.

Unfor­ tunately, ·this country faces more diffuculties encountered, be on the wron.q: road if from the s pending a�y idea o f proper financial control.

This is a fundamental matter.


The lack of proper financial country, as ;far· as been due more to incompetence than to malevolence.

t han I have ever but surely we will control in this I know; has of Government principle we remove In a poor country an amount is missing for of $2.5 million that is what it is, and I think it amounts to over 10 per cent of our Development for the Year 1966.
This m oney is missing and presumed lost and those gentlemen laugh.· Programme In conclusion, I would call of Finance in a single This is a grave matter.

: Having budgeted $4.5 million for five years, we cannot afford to spend $4.7 million year.

If we allow this, it is clear that the of this country will deteriorate very rapidly.
are debating here country will observe cial regulations designed on the hon.· Minister to give us ·a fuller explanation of the statement Assembly to this request.- $1.5 million the same amount which he said, two days ago, was unlawfully and which the Director at his request, reconnnended disc:ipli nary proceed­ in gs agains t the P e rma neut In effect, what we is whether -regulations and illegally spent improvidence investigated?
He to prevent made in this financial position ls this sum of its finan­ this of Audit, two days ago in relation 2695 Approval of 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Financial Paper ·269 6 [MR. LUCK] explanation vision is now necessary,: as to why this pro­ I would ask him to assert �ecretary.

If this is the same matter, hi_s manhood, question, in this �atter and resign.
which is grossly in 5.50 p.m. Mr. 0.-: It seems that the Government is making every effort to reduce this Parliament to an utter farce.· I am particularly �isturbed at the way in which this Paper has been presented to us this afternoon.· Two days ago we heard a very illuminatiug statement from the Minister of Finance in which he revealed that this sum we are being asked to pass now, was either illegally spent or illegally committed.
of $1,5 million, which clear that I am to­ of this the passage difficult As it is sometim-es to get one's vote recorded in this House, I wish to make it abundantly tally against provision, a llowed, my vote would be re­ corded against it.

I cannot be a party to an illegality.

This is what, in effect, we in this House are being asked to do this after­ noon.

and, if a vote were The figures are alarming.


We er t.han additional w ere asked to vote, originally, $2,225,000 for the E ast Coast r oad a n� t hi s provision w as voted.

Later, less than f ive months ago -even short th&t - we were asked to make an a dd i t i o n al p r o vi s i on o f $1 mill ion.

: That was g iven.
: That was g iven.

I recall that when the $1 million was requested for the East Coast road, the Minister of Works and Hydraulics was asked $1 million whether this extra t o would have been sufficient complete the operations on the East Coast road f or this year and his answer was that it would h ave b ee n sufficien t,: [Mr. Kasim: 11}'�, I did not say so.·", [!\tr.
Merrimaa: "Th at i s a dishonest statement has come back in a very short space of time and a further million is being requested in respect of the same road.

So what is the position?

.·"] Now he $H The position is that, ori­ and asked to vote an and as excess in the course ginally, we voted $2,225,000, we are now being additional provision of$2,50qooo.

In other words, o f the year, we are vot in g as supplementary more than we voted on the ori­ g inal Est imates w h i c h were to us.
Where is this presented m oney?

We were told that the Ministry was accelerating work on the road in order that the road this year.

The might be completed road has not been completed and today i s the 30th December.

There are still several miles of road to be completed and $4.7 million will have already been spent.
�ould the Minister care I am also concerned at the Aguiar) contempt with which the Ministers of the Goverrrment are treating this House.· The Minister Df makes a n Finance (Mr.cl' in this House important statement and then comes today, two days after, presents takes his seat.

The Minister Works and Hydraulies who is in the House, has not even got up to offer one word of this Paper and of (Mr. Kasim), 2697 App,ro,,al o{ Financial Paper 2698 tum to the .a.Dd u,swer.

· Let ae .Minister of° Fiu811.(le.


It is tile duty of tile Minister of fiu.nce to raise moaey in order :to meet expenses, kt he m:ast he c&.reful to _see that Slltda aaaey tJaat he is able to realise is aot wutonly spent by th· -.ri:as Miai.stries of tite &owtz :t.. · It semas to me tilat tae fthistcr of Fi.u:ace has lost.

coat.Tel �-ere al<m;g the lize.


: flkiney .aida �ers haw to pllF ay -tae -.t of their brows saoaL:l aot lJ.e was.tea by va.rias ttiaistries or by certain lti.m.stries.. ... he llll;OlleS tkat there is cm-nptiae of this JliODey is � wastefully exp-el'uled , tltes it aa.k-es t h e positia all W 1IIDre seri011-s. mtd taat soae tiling s Taere are lots of • which have to be done ia this ccnmtry if tite livb,g standards cf tite people are to be raised, aml if we are to .aake progress in this cont.ry .
: ?btw" I, �iit, say that we eJrpe:Ct greater fiaaacial aad ...._ist.nt.i,ve eo11trol hy tile litinister of Fin1111ee, aad if he fi•ds tkat k is ainisterial colleagaes are asi•g d�vious aeas to get UD.lllld SilCh aoatrol, tha he u.s a dllty to tender his �ioa - ["lo'ter-n,pt.ion.J /;.JD,.. .. of t1le llit&teae11t whica he aa.de here two days ago.

If he is IU1l eaoup1 Ile aas.t.

stick, at least, to tJle spirit of his stateaent.

le h«s 11.tJt clGae .so toda.y.


· We llav.e Md to 11se seae very coars e latlg aa.g:e tllis aftfl'DooD with re-pri to 0-e hon.

tinister of iD.

tllis aat­ FiAa:nce's attita-de ter.

fire Ima.

Kini.st-er of Fin.aaoe ought to Jaave kept to the spirit of the stateaeat •icll lle made in tllis 1011.se.

le spoke a.bou t taking d i s ciplinary action against certain officers.

What office-rs, wlaat persons have been discipli-aed iu respect of this matter?
This louse should be inforse-d of wkat disciplinary a.-cti011 has been taken, or w hat discipliuary action is likely to be ta.ken agai ns t tlle parties concerned.

We expect to hear about this.· Be said that he went before the Cabinet with regard to the sta.tamt of ,excess.· But the matter does m ot end there; the spirit of ais statea1mt does not end there.
Clearly, arising from that was t he suggestion tha.t 9t(ffley had been illeirally �nt, o'r ualawfully cOllllli t t e d.. We ought· t o have been told whether the Governaent has a lready investi­ gated the matter, and whether it is true or not.

TB!

Ima.

1ti.-.ister of Finance Is the h on.

Minister of _also k1t5 -a very grave duty with reprd i.o -this watter.

'Iha t he 1llli.de a st�t in.this House is a 1111!1.t-ter for wkich he ought to be con;gratul.e.ted.
He may very well for- have brought the provision • · ward as -a Schedule for Additional Exp-enditure without disclosing t he full implicati ons of the matter to the House.

But having him on that, I 11u.st congratulated say th.at it does oot •eu the end to recoil a.nd Finance prepared say that he ma.de a.n error when he made the statement in this House, and that the money was neither illegally spent nor illegally collllllitted ?

If he ha.s made an say so .

error, .


he must get up a.nd He cannot 1aa.ke a. serious, damag­ ing a.n d profound statement like that and leave it in the a i r. laving Mde the statement, he b!t.S Approval of 30TH DECEMBER, 19 63 Financial Paper 2700 \fr .

CHASE] .

require to accelerate this road.

There are parts of the road on the East Coast which need to be done because the vehicles which .

the sugar companies a re using between Enmore and Georgetown are making havoc of the road.
This r oa d was not constructed for heavy vehicles.

Unfortunately, the licences have been reduced by the hon.

Minister of Finance.

: We w oul<l not, in n o rmal circum­ begrudge the Minist�r stances, the money he requires, but, 1n view of the manner in which these excesses have been brought to the House and having regard to the whi�h the very serious statement hon.

Minister of Finance h1mself made on thi s matte r, we must r eluctantl y record our votes against it for the reasons given. '
tell us whether they have made an investigation and a rJ11 t_v to perform in this House.

ll, mu'::'t .

ince it has turned out that he was in �1ror when he sugge sted that had illegally certain officers �pcut or :illegally this committed amount.

If the money was not illegal ly spent o r ille�ally committed and it was just an ordinary administrative arrange­ mt�nt which caused these excesses to b e b e f o r e t h is Hous e f o r approval, h e must also tell us.
If on the other hand, he still a ffirms the statement which he made two days ago that the money was either illegally illegally .comaitted, then he must take the House further into his confidence and let the members know more about this illegality.

He cannot ask the illegality of the true facts as to excesses arose.
us to be party to and not inform us how these spent or We are against the manner in which this matter was brought to this House; the lack of forth­ rightness� the lack_of expla?a­ tion, the lack of 1nformat1on related to this matter and so on.

W e hav e to r e cord our v otes against the Motion, but we a re not in any way against being comrleted possible time and in the best possible manner.
W hat we are t otally against is wast e ful expenditure, corruption, bribery, mismanagement, incompetence, and juggling which appear to be quite apparent from all that has been said by the h on.

Minister of F inance i n relation to this matter.

the road in the shortest admin i strative The Parliam-entary Secretary, Office (Mr. de­ Prime �inister's Groot): I beg to move that thP.

Question be now put; it is in Orders.

keeping with the Standing The CltaiFman: Proceed.


of Works and Hydraulics I have posed certain ques­ t i ons which I expect the hon.

: Minister will answer .

As I spoke, he reclined even further back in his chair as an indication that he is not going to answer.

: I h ave also posed certain which I expect the hon.

of Finance to answer and questions �inister be frank with this House.
I wish lo kno� the true position as to whether an investigati made into the matter, and whether w�th there is now no illegality regard to the expenditure of this large sum on has been of money.

The road can be completed in a short space of time, and w� �re prepared to give the hon.

M 1n1s­ ter any provision which he would 2701 Approval of 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Finaicial Paper .2702cx Dr. Jacob: Ever since this office, we Government came to hav e been d isturhed by i ts activities..
There are charges of b eing corrupt, indulging in was teful expenditure, improper and various public accounting, other sins which Governments of i.'

certain type colll'Jlll.t.

A few days ago - we were not surprised -the hon.

Minister o f Finance con­ firmed these activities when he ma<ie a grave disclosure.· The Chairman: That state­ ment has been made here about six times.· W hat i s the· u s e o f repeating tion.

it?

It is mere repeti­ Dr. Jacob: If you do not wish me to speak, I shall sit down.
explanation but you have no r ight to repeat w hat other speakers have said.

If you repeat at all I am going to use the Standing Orders egainst you.

: Dr. Jacob: I understand that very well.

T h e Minister of Fina n ce has certain d uties and powers under the law.· I sh.all read th�.

Under the ·Financial and .Audit Ordin­ Administration ance the Minister has power to issue instructions and ma.lee regul at io ns r e s p ect in� the management and administration of the fin.ances of ·the country.
He a lso h a s the po�er -to aake regulations and issue instTuc­ tions with respect ·to -the keep­ ing of the financi.al records of the Government.

ha?

bee� ·doing his duty he would h ave d iscovered , before -the amount o f unl.awful reached the enormous ·total of $1i �illion, th.at there was grave going on.

irregularity If ·this Minister expenditure The Oiair111an: You can speak, but you must n ot repeat what has been said already.

: Dr. Jacob: A large amount of $1i million money is involved.
of the taxpayers' money has been squandered, but the members that side are the enemies of the people and they do not care.

on 6.20 P·!ll· The Chairman: I have to care on in that the debate is carried a proper manner.

Dr. Jacob: There are only a few lines of explanation paper.

The people of this coun­ try want more explanation, and I shall stand up here and demand this explanation.
in this Tbe Chairman: You h ave a right to stand up and d emand an ran this Government The Mjnister does not do his d�ty,: .we n e ver had .anything like this during the time when the P.P.P.

country.

I admit that excesses can �ake place, but look at the m�gn�tude of this excess_ Slt million.

: We are concerned about this, and we would like to know exactly how much o f this bas .actually been paid ou·t Fund.

Contigencies of ·the The Oiairm•: Mr. Chase aade all those points.
Dr. JaeoL: The Minister of has informed us that the Finance Direc�or of Audit ma.de a report to him.

Section 24 of the Financial Administration and Audit Ordinance provides - 2703 Approval.

of 30Ttf D£CEMBER, 19% Fi-,,;.

:ial Paper 27 04 Mr. ae -..t: I beg to move that the Question be DOW put.

lii-e CltaiJ!IWBD:: You camtot is move the Motion when a Member on the Floor.

••.

a-,L rm F�e 'llh• Cltei ..... : I have not r uled.

You a:re goiDg to force me to rule now.


The Question is: · That ·the_ q'lilie&timi be now put.

Dr. J.....lr: Sectioo 24 of the ° Adainistratioa.

ud Finan cial Audit Ordinance provides that the D irector of Aaait Sihall iaa-ed­ iately info:na t.he Minister of Finance if at aury tiae he dis­ covers improper expendi t•re of public muies.

: [lnternrpt.imrs.
: [lnternrpt.imrs.

J Now that t:he Director of Audit has reported t h is aatter to the Minister of Finance, we woald l ike to know what &ction t�e Minister of Finue£ proposes to take on these grave caarges.

: 11te CLai When Mr.· Cbase ended his s�eech ae called upon the Minister t.o act.

: Agreers to.

[In t-erna;n:ians.

J "Ae a ·,a,-: N:r. · Ram iarran if you misbelmve I shall ask the Leader of t:he House to aove a.

Notion against you and nae you.· [.Ir.

Ra.· •a.rran bowed and 1 e ft· the Chamber.


J Br • ....._: The Government .has beeJl dealing with ills ques­ tion, in a very irregnl&r aaan.er.

JIN &ei.

: I llave ruled.

Dr. �: We will take our leave of this Asses:bly b�cause this is becoming a farce.

The Gov� and ·th-e Speaker also.

is aa.kintZ it a farce Br.

Jacell: What acti en does he propose to take?

Has he made a report to the Criminal Investi­ gation Department?

[Ile..,,.

of � O,,,,.Si tian in the P.P.1'.


Party bowed �o the Speaker and Jeft the Chamber.

J 6. arr p. p1 •• lite Olai._: Dr. Jacob, yo� [Laueh­ have run out of matter.

: ter.

J Please take your seat, as you have run completely out of matter.
: Mr. de weet: I should like to direct your attenti011, sir, to Stand i n g Ord er 38 (1) which states: Assernbl.y resmrtr«'l Mr. d'Apier: I beg to report that the Casmi tt ee of Supply kas c:mne to a Reso.lntion, and 1 now J1UYe tb&i this As&eably do agree with the Committee in its Resolt.Ltion.

· Question pat, and agreed to.

"After a question has Motian carried •.

any Member may been proposed at any time during the course of debate rise in his place and claim to move 'That he now put.'
11· question the In view of the repetition, 1 beg to move that the Question be now put.

[Interruptions.

J NEW DB-atl.lllNGS (Mr.


The P,rime Miaister Burnhmn): Before the H.ouse rises since this is tire l.ast occasion o n which w e will be meeti ng before the New Year, 1967, may l on behalf of the -llt�ers of t 2705: .. New Year 30TH DECEMBER, 1966 Greetings 2706 those ·wishes.., I desire Government and all those on thl.s sid e o f the House, t ake the opportunity of extending to you our v ery b es t wish e s for a s uccessful and equally useful 1967 as your 1966 has been.
In extending that you communicate s imilar wishes to your very charming lady and the rest has been a pleasure working under you d uring 1966 and I have no doubt that that pleasure will be equally �reat when I come with my colleagues to work under you d uring the year 1967. of your family.

It independent Pa� liament; -we said farewell to our dear friend Sir Richard Luyt; and then we wel­ comed a Guy a n e s e Gover nor- General.
I think we had a very fine year and even though certain Members of this House have not yet absorbed the pros and cons of parliamentary life, nevertheless, I t hink that w e c an justly _ appraise ourselves.

for what has bet>.n done• to make a devotion and sa.c­ I want to thank .Asseably.

It� be necessary few changes which we might see taking place in the coming year for instance, a change in our seating arrangement and sore space to a.ccoJUlOdate st rangers.

On the whole, Members for their co-operation.


a.nd the ambers of the staff for their loyalty, ri fice.

We have had a chan,;e: M r.· .Frank Narain has become· Clerk of ·the ·Natioaai t want to say here that proved h.iaself a very (¥1Pahle and efficient Clerk.· I want to wish the members of the Press aore reporting in 1967 ..

I accurate hope that they avoid those mis- 1 eading and.scoopy headline•, p articularly in reference to debates and matters taking place in this House.
I also want ·to express New Year wishes to the ·staff of Radio Demerara.. To our- 0 f fic ial Repo rters· who work· through the day a.nd night, a.nd to all who have contributed to the well-being of this National Assembly, I sey-a happy New Yc�r he has Assistant Clerk, It is, indeed, at this stage,­ th at good wishes s hould b e exten'1ed through this medium to the members of your staff, the Clerk and the the stenographers and our good friend the messenger who has been very helpful -all of them have reen very helpful.
They have sometimes w orked under the JROst distressing conditions but have performed very well.

I a m quite s ure that they deserve all the .very best for 1967 .

: I have left for the v ery l ast the most decorative of your staff, the Sergeant-at-Arms, who has served us well and long and I hope th�t he will get all that he wants a.Dd a.11 that he deserves during 1967.

.J .

.

.Mr.

Speaker: Hon.


Prime Minister, I m ust thank you for your kind wishes and I only wish that on the next occasion when we exchange New Year Greetings I w ill extend them to Mrs. Burnhu as well.· , AIJJOOIIWF.Nr ·we have had a very eventful.

Resolved.· "Tha.t this Assemb.cy year and those.

wh,o comprise this House have reason to be justly proud.

This ye.ar we House e ntertain a reigning m,onarch; in May we bad our -firs£ .

s�w �he d o now adjourn to a date to be (Mr.

Bistte11ber.)
Bistte11ber.)

fixed.�'· .

·Adjourned ·ac;cordinaly <at 6 .36 p.m.