Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698069783103.pdf (Guyana)
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SICBNO L- lECISlATIVE COUNCI (C.Onstituted under the British Guiana (Constitution) Orders in Council, 1953 and 1956) .

�Temporary Provisfons) .

Wednesday, .2nd November, · 1960 ,< The Council PRESENT; met at 2 p.m. • Speaker, His Honour Sir Donald Jackson Chief Secretary, Attoruey�Geueral, Secretary, Financial The Honourable Hon.

Major I. O. Smith, Q.C.

Hon.

A. M. I. Austin, Hon.

W. P. D'Andrade.

� O.B.E.

(acting). }


ex officio Dr. C. B. JDgan -Member for Eastern Berbice (Minister of Trade and Industry) " " B. H. Benn " " Janet Jagan .. " Ram Karran " " B. S. RBI -Member for Essequibo River Resources) of Natural (Minister ·-Member for Western of Labour, Essequibo Health and (Minister ·· Housing) -Member for Demerara-Essequibo of Communications (Minister and Works) �-.

-Member for Central Demerara ·(Minister of Community Development and Education).

Member.
Member.

·-Nominated - Member for Demerara River Mr. W. O. R. Kendall -Member for New Amsterdam ,, R. C. Tello .

,, F. Bowman•·· · ,, L.F. S. Burnham, Q.C._ ·-Member for Georgetown Central ,, S.Campbell ., A. L. Jackson ,, E. B. Behany ,.

S.M.

Saffee ,, Ajodha Singh ., Ja.i Narine Singh ,, R. E. Davis ,, A. M. Fredericks ,.

H.J.

M. Hubbard -Member for North Western District -Member for Georgetown -Member for Eastern Demerara Berbice.
-Member for Western -Member for Berbice River -Member for Georgetown Member -Nominated Member -Nominated Member.

-Nominated of the Legislature North South .

Mr.

I. Crum Ewing-Clerk Mr. E. V. Viapree--.ASBistant Clerk of the Legislature.

• ... j Mr. R. B. Gajraj, Mr. A. G. Tasker, Nominated O.B-E., Nominated Member-indisposed.

Member-on The Assistant Clerk read prayers.

leave.
leave.

ABSENT: 1529 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 'I;o Cuba 1530 MINUfES The Minutes held on Friday, Council 1960, as printed taken as read and confirmed.

of the Meeting of the 28th October, and circulated, were ANNOUNCEMENT MR. GAJRAJ ILL Mr. Speakier: Hon.

Members, I that the hon.

Nomin­ have to announce ated Member, be excused account of ill health.

Mr. Gajraj, has asked to from today's meeting on ORDER OF THE DAY TIMBER CONCESSIONS 'fO CUBA Mr. Speaker: The hon.
Member for Demerara move the following "'Whereas River (Mr.

Bowman) to Motion: the leader of the Majority in a press 10th June, stated Party of the Go\!eroment interview on Friday, that as a result of the recent visit of the Cuban delegation, Government was con• sidering with Cuba to exploit of this Colony; entering into a partnership the timbeT resources of what is taking and it is because know we have read in the news­ place in Cuba of that that the Guiana.
We in this country from reports papers, today, majority are opposed entering or giving Cubans.

of the people of this country 'to the idea of Government into any kind of partnership any kind of concessions to the Guiana have of British most Guianese to Cubans as such, but in Cuba today are not normal.
The people no aversion conditions Under normal conditions all of us, per­ haps without a dissenting voice, would agree to admit Cubans to assist us in the development •and exploitation of our vast timber resources.

But apart from those who consider Dr. Fidel Castro as an idol and extol him as a great libera­ tor in this hemisphere, have an aversion to violent as a means of achieving We know that independence is in the offing.
The British Government has given us an undertaking, and we are at a stepping ment of complete internal ment, yet we hear today Ministers of this Government, meetings, ing themselves pendence.

with fire".)

What I am saying read in the newspapers.

then the newspapers incorrectly.

for inde­ fire I have If I am wrong have reported.

at several the ptjople about arm­ and fighting revolution independence.
the achieve­ self-govern­ [A Member: "Fighting stone towards telling public me And whereas t'he majority of the of this Colony are at present inhabitants opposed sent political to the idea in view of the pre­ situation in Cuba: Be it resolved: That this Council that Government recommends enter into any negotiations sent Cuban Government, panies or individual concessions should not with the pre• Cuhan com• in this Colony", Cubans for timber Mr.
Bowman: Never before in the struggle have the minds of this country history of the people been so agitated and per­ turbed as they are today about the future prospects of this country, and it is this general and disturbance of mind that has given rise to this Motion.
The Minister of Trade and Industry and his Party are at this moment considering of whether they should give the Cuban Government timber concessions, and perhaps other concessions in British the question for survival Later on I shall quote revolu­ revo­ We are opposed to anyone who would train our thoughts towards lution, and we believe that if any sort of concession or partnership is to be entered into with the Cubans, tion is going to be imported in:to this country.
from ''The Daily Argosy" to show that only last week an attempt was made in Vene­ zuela at violent revolution.

I read in the newspapers where certain Vene­ zuelan industrialists to develop secondary industries country.

I have my fears about that also, because wolves in sheep's may be I know of promised clothing.
in this these industrialists iS3i Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1532 to take We believe Government posing l ly wolves in the principle of the British that they are pre­ pared to train their Colonials on the responsibilities of Government Today we see in the various that have been given self-government independence that the Britj.sh ment are really saying what they ever they promise be implemented.

of our country, but too?"]


I see no useful Government, - even the Ministers were granted ment-arguing here, aeroplanes independence in their supplies, honest; they are not do not mean.

you anything [Mr. Benn: "Kenya in people about the question and Govern­ When­ it will countries of this Govern­ purpose now.

of people in Water Street who came to this country certain recently as merchants, in sheep's clothing.
but they are rea All Guianese, except the few who consider Castro the best man that has lived on this Continent and in this cen­ tury, would like to give not only con­ cessions but other things to all who genuinely desire to come in and assist in the development we know that if Castro's or any Cuban company, timber concessions would be bringing and those planes are not going to land at Atkinson Field.
They are going t<' build their own airfields and guns and munitions brought and perhaps friends audiences much more, that my former had in mind when they told their into this country.

about arming them.

It is this, in the interior are going to be Our minds have never been so dis­ as they are today.
We are faced turbed with danger, •and if we sit here with our eyes wide open, after hearing of what is being said by Members of the Government, and allow concessions to be u granted to the C bans, then God be with us.

which in and some of them are flee­ I have some quotations to make, concernin;g Sir, wrth your permission, some of the promises made by Castros Government-some of the things have been said by Castro who has not lived up to one-sixteenth of the promises he has made.
The men who assisted Castro to power are today -shivering their boots, ing the country.

the ,Minister said the other day that they have friends and rockets.

These are clear indications of what these people We have always had peace in our coun­ try.

We have had our little ups and downs, but Guianese have in terms of revolting, independence.

My former friend, of Trade and Industry, have in mind for British Guiana.
with money do you expect will withhold before Guianese I read in the newspapers that some for inde­ for 100 years.

How long will to fool the cannot be fooled for Members are clamouring pendence 1961.

It is now 1960, and they want to get it before i1961!

Is this not empty agitation public?

long.

We have been ruled by t1?-e British it take us to reach 1961, when we are now in 1960?

How long the _British independence ciple of independence has •already offered to us?
These outpourings been made by certain Elections will be taking That is a slogan which they feel will catch the imagination That may be a catch-slogan our friends, terms of the economics We are thinking of the poople, money and would like to come here and invest it.

Government from us when the prin­ been have because of the bread and butter and of those who have people, place next year.

but we are thinking for some of in of th� people.

of this country.
of this country.

Since last year when I left the increase Ram Karran: out.

"]-I tabled "You were ,a Motion asking tax conces­ P.P.P.-[Mr. kicked that this Council sions in order to give greater incentives to people inside and outside country money here.

I subsequently tabled a Question when they would debate tion has not been answered, �oti.on has not been debated.

Government my Motion.

The Ques­ and the What who desired to invest their asking of this never thought especially for 1533 [MR.
BOWMAN)· Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1534 • -we on this side of the Table are thinking revolution it is ·a high-sounding of the in because about is the bread and butter of the people.

We are thinking of the eco­ nomic and general develop�ent country.

Some people are thinking terms of revolution, is a catchword; electioneering have offered us iridependen�.
not remember stitutional Report, that after the West Indies obtained independence, or within a short time we could go to -England and d..iJscuss 'the question of .independence.

: I can­ in the Con­ everything two years hence, but the gist of it was slogan.

The British shall have 8, 1959, and it was evident of the Government states the event.

Recognition was granted by all the American by January that there was a sincere all possible Government community and to the • organization States.
friendly support and.

to .

welcome it to the of western· democratic desire to• give to the new nations qf American Dr. Castro's"·' role in the Sierra acts by lt;aders of the Many o·f the pronoune<>­ of C uba had cap­ an!=!

· raised the Maestra mountains tured the imagination hopes of · millions Americans.

ment,s and initial 26th of July Movement gave hope that Cuba would assume its position leader in th� fight for .

freedom, repre­ the dign ity of man, sentative democracy, .
to all forms of tyranny, opposition belief which are the roots of our mutual American heritage.

in those ·ideals as a and of freedom-loving W¢ll, my hon.

Friends are sound­ before 1961'\ Whom to fool?

Coming back ing loud tambourines and shouting "Independence are they trying ·to the big question of Castro and Cuba, I will now quote from a reliable source.
This is what has been said at a certain conference of American pose to quote from a news item from the Inter-American conference States at the last which · they held.

States.

I pro­ .

Mr. Speaker: _ you are quoting from.

I do not know what Mr. BQwman: This is a document which was loaned to me by a friend.

is a document .

Conference held aL Costa Rica very r�nuy.

[At this stage Mr.

Bowman to the Clerk for handed a document transmission to the Speakelj.
It from the Inter-American Coming after the de.velopments of a natnre in other countries of the advent of the new was viewed by many democratic the .

Hemisphere, Cuban Government as a further help to establish institutions the Americas.

important step which would more firmly democratic and procedure� throughout .

Tribunal This hope of the American commun­ ity did not seem to be unrealistic at that time.
Dr. Castro, in his defense before -the Emergency of Santiago de­ Cuba on October 16, 1953, when be and his followers the Moncada· described consecrated the· truth."

He had been further laud'ed in the book, .History .

Will Absolve Me, by his then • friend, one who "is keeping the _promises as "a solitary figure in body and soul to defend Army barracks.

bad been Luis Conte Aguero, as by writers that were tried for attacking ·the -rebel made.

He does not break his pledges.


His acts are true to 'his .words He is.

-democratic.. and humanist humanitarian.''.

Among the five "revolutionary laws" Mr. Speaker: It appears to be a .

documMt from a Conference.

m:ay continue.

You Mr.

Bowman: Yes, Sir.

The docu­ -ment states: Th� Promise of the Revolutionary · · ·Government of.

Cuba .

set forth in Dr. Castro's defense plea in the Moncada trial, one "would have returned pQwer to the people· and pro­ .

claimed the Constitution .

of 1940 .


the supreme law of the land, nntil such time · as -the people should decide· to ·: .. mQdify or change it ... " · At that time Dr.. C�tro-'has con­ , .

··and subseque�tly, ....... .

sistently .

deplored atrocities by previous .

regimes in Cuba's history .


committed When tbki Gov:ernment headed by Dr. Fidel Castro Ruz assumed power in Cuba on people of the entire Hemisphere January hailed Then, on July 12, 1957, Dr. Castro's "Declaration issued: 1's general those who welcomed the Revolutionary of the Sierra Maestra" lofty tones also gave was 1, 1959, the press and .. 1535 Timber Concessiops 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1536 vovernment hope that democracy would be restored to Cuba.
The first eight points of the Declaration larly worth recalling.

are particu­ "We want the pr� to function here.

There won't be any more censor­ Only ship as there was under the tyranny.

a Government to hide imposes censors'hip".

which has something "l. Immediate freedom for all political prisoners, civil and military.

·On the same day in reply to a "2.


Absolute guarantee freedom of information, newspapers · and of all and radio; the individual guaranteed of both of measures of coercion and political rights in a cannot be healthy democracy country not well informed".

by the Constitution.

on the press.

There "My Government will never impose question, President Urrutia replied: "3.

Designation of provisional mayors in all munici11alities, after consultation tions of the locality.
with the civic institu­ response Russia, that he: ln Santa Clara on January 6, in to a question with Dr. Castro was quoted as saying on relations "4: SuppressiQn ·of graft in all o.Q.s.

anq �option of which will tend to increase of all the organiza­ its manifestati measures the efficiency tions of the State.

"5.

Creation of a Civil Service.

· ..... reiterated his personal that Cuba shoul9 not maintain diploma­ tic relations with any dictator".

opinion I am going to read further, Sir: "6.


Democratization politics, unions and industrial of union in all free elections federations.

holding of an "7.

Immediate beginning intensive campaign a�inst illiteracy and of civic e:ctucation, emphasizing the duties and rights which the has both in the society citizen and the Fatherland.
In a publiciz.ed in January, the opinion interview 1959, Dr. Castro expressed that: given early "The tyranny having been defeated there were automatically all civil rights, dissent including and to make opposition".

re-established the right to Pre.sident in a press inter­ view on January Urrutia 7 said: "Cuba will always exert the m1ru­ "8.
Establishment of an organi­ for agrar-ian reform to pro­ of barren lands into proprietors and zation· mote the distribution and the conversion of all lessee planters, who possess small parcels squatters of land, be it property of the state perso�, with prior or of private to the former ·indemnification owners."

partners to assure that in our country Cuba wishes to law <llld hot inter­ mum effort there are no dictators.
respect international of other vene' in the interna1 to inter­ and intends countries the question of organizations national I believe respect when for human rights.

this occurs there will be no more dicta.- tors".

· problems to present Those ·are the 8 Declarations.

going to quote further: I am .

.

: "On May 21, 1959, Dr. Castro said: .. We.

wish to free man from fear, we to free want to · free man from dogmas, him socially without and economically, dictatorsh ip of any kind. "
Mr. ·speaker: You are not going to read the whole of that document?

"In an addr,ess to the Cuban people on January 2, 1959, just before Dr. Urrutia was sworn in as Provisional Dr. Castro said that one of President, the first acts of the Government would be to restore constitutional all types.

The new Government -also protect of would the economy .of the country guarantees .

and Dr. Urrutia would · -President in all and· .§Upreme authority be Provisional respects until elections were held.
Mr. Bowmam No, Sir.

I am only I will read a which will tell you of of the-dk,tatorial .

going to read a portion.


few paragraphs the•rise country: ' .. .pattCTTJ, of that On Jam1ary 5, 1959, in Camaguey, Dr. Castro made clear his opposition by stating: press censorship to "The close association between the of Cuba and Revolutionary and tp.e encourage- the Sino-Soviet bloc, Government of the American Republics set of the Organization the practical elimination 1531 timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 'ro Cuba -1538 [MR.
BOWMAN] o.f of the peoples and representative movements particular powers of revolu­ on the patterned grounds for over developments it} Cuba that and ob­ upon principles ment by the Communist tionary Cuban model in other Latin American countries, give concern have a bearing jectives forth in the Charter States.

of American The Revolutionary Cuba came to pqwer applause of the United State& and other friendly countries who were impressed valour lofty aims professed ,Movement.
Toe almost nition granted made evident governments all possible by the and by the by the 26th of July immediate recog­ to the new government Government wHh the sincere of the peoples in the Hemisphere to give it friendly o� the revolutionaries and good wishes desire of other the sincere support.

of developments of the Declara­ in the body A recital of the of Cuba to the principles is included own form of government".

facts of political in relation tion of Santiago of this documen�.
have all been publicly cord clearly factors, elections, tical opposition, of freedom of the press and other viola­ tions of fundamental of any move to hold of poli­ the virtual prohibition These developments The re­ proclaimed.

among other demonstrates, the absence Repeated statements human rights.

by Prime Minis- have im­ ter Castro and his associates pu�ned the value of democ�atic elections not to and have indicated a clear intent future.
hold elections in the foreseeable of � Government Thus, the Revolutionary ·cuba perpetuates itseH in power without an electoral of office.

or any fixed term mandate of democracy and .

Many of the pronouncements and in the of a leader and to build a and for the _economic human life.
Dr. Castro was ac­ initial acts by leaders of the 26th of July Movement gave hope that Cuba would assume the position common struggle America for freedom democracy, social reforms necessary better claimed scene who was genuinely of his people, welfare cated to-a programme and who would economic seek ways of stren,gthening the bonds of Hemispheric solidarity by giving re­ newed vigour to principles tives which underlie Syst�m.
interested in the who was dedi­ as a new figure on the American betterment, and objec­ the opposite has taken to the political strue­ in Cuba by the Revolu­ Unfortu�ately Instead place with reference ture being erected tion�ry Government.

upon the basic elements system as set forth in the Declaration of Santiago, increasingly adopted political formulas, systems.

followed of building of a democratic opposition ha� been virtu­ All oppo�ition Political parties ally eliminated.
or have been driven underground eliminated 'have sought asylum in other countries.

Only the Pa,rtido Socialista munist Party) Freedom is permitted of the press, radio Popular (Com­ to act openly.

an9 many of their leader� and tele­ extinguished.

who did not conform has been virtually · organs of public opinion.
and radio and television have been taken over; and editors to vision There exist in Cuba today almost no in­ dependent Newspapers stations and publishers the official views of the Revolutionary to seek have been forced Government asylum and flee to other countries.

among these was the recent standing case of Miguel Angel Quevedo, of editor known magazine the internationally Bohemia, enthusiastic of the revolution.

pressive when he sought asylum in the Vene­ in zuelan Embassy the body of this document.
•'I and powerful supporters who had been one of the most in Havana is included made by Dr. Quevedo statement The text of the im­ Out­ has and the Cuban Government typical liberties practices, Individual of the democra­ of dictatorial In the Declaration of Santillgo certain of the main principles tic system in this HemispJ;iere were set to be complete, forth, with no attempt "so as to · permit-national - and inter national public opinion degree of identification gimes and governments with that system, tion of forms of dictatorship, despotism, or tyranny, respect the right of peoples freely lo choose their by military trials _ns, imprisonment have been sup­ and summary for political forced exile and the arbitrary of penalties pressed executio activities, imposition described which has generally to the Revolutionary Anti-Communism counter-revolutionary.
movement democratic an instrument tionary express labor or,ganizations."

Government ed will of the membership has also been deprived of its into and converted character meant �ny opposition Government.
thus contributing has been defined as of political for crimes vaguely in disregard to the eradica­ by the Revolu­ weakenirig Toe labour of control to gauge the without of the for re- cif the Inter-American as "counter-revolutionary" 1539 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1540 Millionaire Barletta Embassy as a "gu est" when intervened the Italian the government ning of his enterprises took refuge in in the run­ over 15 days ago.

by the His property .


i� estimated government to be worth $68,568,000".

That was the first confiscation that took my attention.

claimed place 011 the 18th March, 1960.

It will be more appropriate to quote that later.

The second Coming to the 25th October, 1960, "Woolworths and all American­ were among 167 national­ owned hotels ised.

by the Cuban Government today.


total of The firms, worth an estimated 71 million 200 million dollars (abou.t and 17 sterling), chemical the Sears Roebuck 30 insurance two raihvays Mail Order concern."

also include companies, and Cuba had already the bulk of American with an estimated dollars million ing)".
nationalised businesses value of about 1,000 nearly in Cuba (about· 357 million sterl· I think I have quoted enough to bring clearly to the minds of the Mem­ bers of this Council who, after hearing think that they should to grant any tion of this Government form of concession to the Cubans or to the Cuban Government especially, can as an enemy of the peopfo be regarded of British Guiana.
that any Member these quotations, the inten­ support We know that, with the exception we read: of the various that take place in Cuba of people are the Cubans ·any sort of These quotations may but I would like of a few, the majority to giving opposed concession.

dreary, sound long and to remind this Council confiscations every .

day.
day.

I have a few clippings which tell of the various confisc�tions and the thousands dollars private Cubans-all to tell this Council what takes place in Cuba today can take place in British Guiana tomorrow.

of by property; that have been confiscated and millions and I wish Mr. Speaker, clip­ With your permission, [ will quote from a few ne,vspaper pings.

The first incident concerning attention that are going on in Cuba took place on the 10th of March, 1960.
I will read it to attract my the confiscations I would not go into details, but to show the worth the figures jnst quoted of the companies.

I will read now about what took place on the 14th October, 1960: ''The Cuban GoverQJ11ent today nationalized country ... " and 382 companies all but two banks in the "The Cuban government today con­ 22 companies owned by two fiscated brothers, Burke include the country's The government and James Hedges, which biggest textile charged the firms finn.
with "illegal of the ,llovemment tyranny" at the expense in connivance Batista (the overthrown enrichment with regime).

The seizure of the Hedges companies, followed of all property, panies, Amadeo Barletta.

24 hours after the confiscation owned by Italian comprising 33 com• millionaire Today's seizure was ordered by the for Recovery of Misappropri­ Ministry ated Property.

Burke and James Hedges were bor.n in the United States a Cuban citizen.
but Burke became Burke was a member of the Batista's Council" "Consultative was named as Ambas$ador to Brazil.

and in 1958 he of Cuba to­ without enterprises - compens�tion.

who went to Cuba and invested to take away ·all these There These are all private people their money; and I am s�re that the well.

The Cuban people have benefited Revolutionary Government day has started properties is no promise tion.

[An hon.

Member: .

"Not •even They are not even offering bonds!'']

any bonds - no compensation.


That When a company is expropriation.

is paid.

expropriated, That is why I think that if this Govern­ ment continues to have association of Cuba, people with money who would is no compensation to sqpw any inclination of any kind of compensa­ with the Government 1541 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1542 tion might bring the risk of another military dictatorship.

headed by Col. Marcos Perez Jimeue,z was overthrown in 1958.
The dictatorship who cannot get schools 12 to 15 were drawn into the demon­ by the leftists.

strations Keep Boys Off Streets the said he• ordered many boys from ,Mr. Betancourt closed because BOWMAN] of people and invest in this country with money to come in'to of the down-trodden [MR. like to invest are going to keep out.

There.

are thousandS people in this country work, but the Members of this Government, who claim to be the champions work­ ing class peopie, will.
not en­ :ourage the country their money, so that our working class men could get work to support their families.

But this so-called people's Government want with Cuba and themselves to associate allow Cubans to bring in guns anrl munitions I can assure them that in that event many of them will not live to see the end of tha� revolution.

concessions some of them and I am alive, revolution will not live ·to see the · end of it.

[Interruption.]

and I mean what I say.


If they grant any sort of to Cubans and there is a 1to start a revolution.

I :have said .that before The police couldn't move against boys, Mr. Betancourt to keep the 12 and 15-year-old said.

He urged parents boys off the streets.

Mr. Betancourt today was pledged of the big General the support eration of Workers which · claims 1 200 000 members throughout �ela'.
Leaders of the Confederation, the Oil Workers Union and the Build­ ing Construction Confed­ Vene­ Workers Union called today to offer their ,.

on the President support."

_We want our own system in this we do ·not want any new sys- country; tem such as Castro's.

·· · Mr, Speaker: Will you address the Chair, please?

The Chief Secretary (Major Smith): To a point of order, Sir.

Is all this relevant?

Mr.

Bowman: Yes, Sir.

I would like to make two last quotations.


last week we read tha;t President Betan­ had declared court of Venezuela were trying left wing elemel:lts ayer· a Castro plan in Venezuela.

I quote from "The Daily Argosy" of the 26th October: , Mr. Speaker: say at the moment.

that to put Only It is very difficult to Mr.

Bowman: I think I have re­ to newspaper reports ·he said, refused to say He was afraid who goes abroad to gi�e his views con­ the name of Cuba.
I am about Cuba, because, of what sufficiently minded this Council is going on in Cuba today.

Last week there was a ship in our harbour, and according the Cap­ tain, when interviewed, anything he did not want trouble.

to mention sure that no Guianese would be afraid cerning the of this· country.

Let us ask ourselves why is it that the Captain which recently in · this country to· say anything refused about Cuba?
It is a clear indication what is taking That is why I want to remind Guianese tpat today _we are faced with a danger­ bµs threat--danger Peo�le -��o .are tllinking .. • left Cuba to load timber place in Cuba today.

within and without.

Government or the people of a ship o� revolution of "Ca�acas, Venezuela, Oct. 25.

(A.P.

)­ that extreme left wing ele­ Declanng ments are trying to put over a Castro type programme in Venezuela Romalo Betancourt army to patrol Caracas streets.
.order came after five days of leftist President the today o'rdered The •.· demonstrations.

LEFTISTS CHEER RUSSIA In demonstrations which began last night and continued the leftists until this morning, cheered Russia and Castro's ·Cuba.
Addressing a group of professional men today, · Dr. Betancourt said the their own Venezuelans system, and de­ not the Cuban methods, clared that a continuance will follow of leftist agita- �- 1543 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1544 people, are dangerous and dictatorship and that is why they want independence now.

We have always been a peaceful people.

We have never had a revolu­ country tion in 'this a revolution.

I do not want any­ <to independence.


fully one to get the idea that I arri opposed to independence.

and we do not want We want to evolve peace­ ever he may be, must be -respectful.

Such references other day" and ''the are improper.

as "the other one the so-called so and so" Mr.

Bowman: I do not remember making such remarks, Sir.

Mr. Speaker: If I heard you wrongly I am sorry, "the so-called so and so".

but twice I heard you say Mr.

Bowman: I did say "the so­ called Government".


Mr. Speaker: Your Motion has of inde­ to do with the question nothing pendence several times.

Please to the Motion.

let us get down to which you have referred Mr.

Bowman: With respect, Sir, necessary.

are really I think these things Mr. Speaker: people's to "the You referred and you Government" it.

If any Member refer to you in that way I would so-called go on repeating should stop him in the same way.

Mr. Speaker: on independence.


it about a dozen times already.

But this 1s not a debate You have referred to Mr.

Bowman: Do you wish me to I t� of the threat and I know it is a threat.

it, and that is the some of wha:t I have to reply.

I say that this Gov­ is bent upon bringing revolu­ and that is why I to the idea of granting any Cuban to the present to take my seat, Sir?

I was !

'eferring the Government.

put one off one's trend of thought.


shall reserve say for my ernment tion to this country, am opposed sort of concessions Government.

bers on this side of the Table who sup­ port the Government concessions enter th.is country in the guise of tech­ and otherwise, nicians will come into columnists'' terity in the guise of technicians traitors Mr.

Bowman: I do not want to argue with you Sir, but I am referrino­ because to independence this country, 1 am trying to prevent this Motion.
I why I brought reason by many Guianese ]1ave been approached me to bring urging m every walk of life, this Motion.

They feel, and I feel al�o, that_ if this Gove;111ment gets away with the idea of grantmg concessions Jhe Cubans our country m the process that "fifth this country and so forth, which .

hav� been employed cou_ntnes Guiana.

in its desire and allow foreigners will be invaded of time.

They believe and that 'the same tactics will look upon such Members as will be employed of th¼ country.
'to give to If there are any Mem­ Mr. Beharry: to the people in British I say that pos­ in other •to This Government is thinking The other day these people in terms of bartering.

told us that they wanted to borrow $5 milJion.

Mr. Speo,ker: In speaking in this please do not refer to Mem­ Council bers o-f the Government as "They say" · as "The other and make such references one, the other day".
Reference another to who� Member of the Council, Guiana should with the Cuban Gov­ This Motion seeks to recom­ I beg to second the Motion and would like to show why not enter into any British trade agreement ernment.

mend to Government grant any timber concessions but I think the Cuban Government, hon.

Mover should have gone a little further recommendation not accept should any trade agreemen Government.
-economy t with 'the Cuban tie its nation or with that of another in his Motion a that Government that it should not to the No country should and included any loans or negotiate These things usually 1545 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1546 [MR, BEHARRY] Guiana's system of the Western today is tied up with the free British group of nations.

economy enterprise nations.

large capital ment and to provide large army of unemployed investment This country employment for its people.
cries out for for its develop­ manner.

In British different upholding ism in no uncertain Guiana we see an entirely tern· we have our leader muu'ism as being the most ideal system for our people rather it.

You can always hear him giving \)raise system, nnlike the Leader of the Egyptian Government.

to the communist economic pat­ com­ than condemning nations.

whether the economy of economy, system system.

and the We will have we will adopt the com­ or the free en­ systems the communist economy.
Prior to the revolution of Cuoa was ued up with the free enter­ prise system of the We-stern It cannot be denied that the two hasic economic in the world to­ day are economy free enterpri,se to decide munist temrise that nations svstem of economv are also trading with communist countries.

to deal basically with our tie to the econ­ omy of the Cuban Government prior to the revolution.

had the free enterprise the.

revolution we have ,seen mere:ed their economic communist policy bloc of nations.
that they have with the I know it will be argued I would like system, but after who have a free enterprise The Cuban Government this Motion, because if countries.
Imperial­ in Russian and other communist believes he is trading Cuba is tying its eoonomy more and moi,e with the Russian system ot e�onomy Dr. Castro ism -and supporting were to trade or enter into any Trade Agre�ment severed its economic free enterprise committing be ·tying our communist connections then we will be for we will with Cuba, now that it has with the suicide economy to that of the with Russia.

I am we system, political world.


who possesses money in this country I am sure that no capitalist or group capital will in order to for the people, when tbe Cuban leader of capitalists invest provide our leader a liberator omic system, is the cor­ rect one.
Nobody would like to see his capital confiscated, have decided employment upholds and says that the as it now exists, as Cuban econ­ If this country wants to encourage or any nat­ It is true that Mr. Nehru of India is of the Maj­ to come to with Russia to support and that is why I this Motion.

but unlike the leader as a liberator.


Guiana in order to help our un­ capital, I cannot see capitalists ion h<4ving capital in the free enterprise world allowing their capital British employed, while the leader of the Major­ ity Party claims to uphold the Cuban leader, It is obvious ority Party has agreed that the Cuban leader his country econom­ ically lhe principle of con­ fiscation Di:.
Fidel Castro, that the leader is liberating by adopting and communist coun­ of India our Nehru is not in favour despite trading tries, leader different.

Our leader will stand up for the communist way of life.

Mr. of com­ munism, with Russia.

Am I to be told in this than nationlization.

Councill that when we become a free nation agree that Colonial on becoming communist the ,economic communism.

our leader is different, lieve in communism.


fiscation seen Nasser of Egypt who has nation­ alized the Suez Canal, We have seen Egypt trading munist world; we have seen the Leade,r of that Qoverrunent-condemn commun- but he paid for it.

with the com­ countries and social and nationalization.

between con­ We have we can tmde with anybody?

I the fact that he trades There is a difference Yes, that may be so.
But is entirely and I do not be­ rather countries of yesterday free are now trading with and are adopting principles of 1547 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1548 Ghandi has said that the communist system is steeped in revolution and vio lence; it does not have the pattern or the philosophy to enable the freedom of an individual to develop his personality; it does not give an individual freedom to aspire to any height.
Therefore, I say that if we are to be told in this Council that as soon as we become a free nation we will trade with communist countries, 1 feel that it will be wrong.

Our leader is always condemning the free en;terprise system as a system which appropriates the earnings of the workers.

I do not see why this country should remove the shackles of imperialism from Engla.n.d, and then accept the shackles of Russian imperialism.

We have to tie our economy somewhere; we cannot live in isolation.
We must tie our economy either to Vhe Western Wodd, or the Socialist or.

Communist World.

Cuba bas tied its the Communist World.

economy to American is now being imperialism substituted by Russian imperialism.

India and Ghana are two countries that are always quoted as examples in order to distort the realities of social pro gress in those countries.
Mr. Nkrumah of Ghana quite recently condemned, as a very malicious rumour, the statement that Ghana would nationalize distributive industries by the distribution in.

Ghana.

Ghana has been trading with the Com munist World, but Mr. Nkrumah has con demned the communist way of life for his people.

That is not the case in British In British Guiana our leader Guiana.

condem.

";s the way of life of the West ern World and upholds what takes place in the Russian World.
There is evidence to prove that, because the leader of the G()IVernment refers to Dr. Castro as the great liberator.

we trade with Cuba or any communist I say no.

Every indication country?

points towards tying this Government its economy and social way of life with the Communist World, and no one can deny it.

Everything is couched in the distortion of independence, whereas my bon.

Friend on my left says that inde pendence is a foregone conclusion.
In deoP-ndence will come to this country It is a pledge wheit,er we want it or not.

that has already been given to this coun try hy Britain and they will implement tt.

Only a few days ago the respon sibility for internal security was handed over to an Elected Minister, and we know that independence will be given to us whether we want it or not.

This coun try has been receiving a dole from Eng land.

Every year $5 million has been given to this country by the British Gov ernment as a free grant.
We get money to develop our artesian well water which falls under the porfolio of the Minister of Communications and Works.

We have been getting $5 milHon free from Eng land, but we are hearing a lot of talk about Cuba lending us $5 million at very low interest.

The money from England will .swp when we get inaepenctence.

We have to realize that ·independence brings with it certain responsibilities, and we have to shoulder those responsibilities~ responsibilities in the field of economy and so on.
We will have to learn to shoulder the responsibilities 'that are now being shouldered by the very people who are referred to as in1perialist Western nations.

Do we want to substitute West ern imperialism for Russian or Commun I will not agree with ist imperialism?

that.

The Chairman of the Majority Party that governs thi,s Council said in this hon.

Council "You can stop tomorrow, but you cannot stop communism."

Should I will appeal to hon.

Members of this Council to support this Motion bas ically.
I want to make it clear that if 1549 Timber Concessions ZND NovEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1550 {MR. BEHAR.RY] because I know British Guiana were free today or tomor- 11ow, I would not be against its trading with any part of the world, provided we have leaders running this country who are capable of trading without tying our economy or social way of life with any communist country.

that excuses will be made in this Coun is cil, It will capable of distorting facts.
be said that since India, Egypt and Ghana are trading with communist coun tries, why should not British Guiana, as a free nation, hav,e the right to trade with those countries?

But it must be rem embere.d that the leader in British Guiana is different from the leaders in the other countries; 4is outlook and his way of life is different.

this Go,vernment I think history will record this Gov ernment as a Government of textbooks.

Theory without practice is sterile.


This qovernment is frustrated because it be lieves in certain theories- theories that are impractical in our present way of life.

The development of this country is at a standstill.

As Guianese, we believe in the freedom of enterpri,se, and the free dom of individuals who can reflect their personality and dignity in the system that I know that certain Members we love.
of this Government are frus-trated, be cause they cannot work this system of fret: enterprise when their theories a.re not .

based on such a system.

That is why we ha.ve Members of the Government making irresponsible statements, and why capital is not coming into this country.

As an importer of foodstuff, I import split peas f_rom the United States.

I understand that a company in the United States is now setting up a split peas fac tory in Trinidad.

Why did not the com pany install its factories here?
Because the people are afraid of losing their ~apital.

Yet we are not concerned with the unemployment in this country; yet we continue to talk callously, loosely and wildly.

I said on the last occasion that certain people dig their own graves.

that this I know that the Leader of this Government has referred to the Cuban Leader as a great liberator.

History will liberator is a great prove impostor.

But the pity today i•s that the people of this country have very short memories.
We know that the English people, who have taught us, believe that the State should nationalize certain indus tries, but they do not believe that there should be confiscation.

We are going to trade with a country whose Leader con fiscates, not nationalizes.

If we tie our economy, whether it is in timber or loans or in any other form, to Cuba, which is a country tied to the communist world, I say we are further kicking away capital from this country.
Last week, the employees of a departmental store in Havana, Cuba, were asked if they would like the Gov errunent's intervention to take over the store, and 98% voted against.

The number of waitresses at the "Hilton Hotel" in Havana has been cut down by 50% .

The tide in Cuba is beginning to turn and we slwuld not, in any way, tie our economy, whether in the field of timber or in the field of rice or in any one of our productive sectors, not be cause we should not trade where we want to trade.
I want to emphasize this: A country has a right to trade with any other nation provided it will benefit the country; but if we trade with Cuba, be cause that country has tied its economy to a communist country, we will be looking lose thousands.

for a penny and will I say that this country must be developed on the free enterprise system.

This country must hf': developed on .

democracy-Western democracy-gov ernment for the people by the people.
I am appealing to the members of the Government and other Members of the Council.

The Motion may look very 1551 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, i960 To Cuba 1552 insignificant but it has a lot to do with providing employment for our people.

This Moti:on has a lot to do with the country's development and the pur chasing power of the people at present employed whose earrungs are not enough.
It is only by having capital in this coun try that our purchasing power can be developed and we can have more employ I do hope that my friends on this ment.

side of the Table will agree that we should not tie our economy with Cuba.

We see that Castro of Cuba was able to confiscate millions and millions of dollars.

That is why I referred to this Government as a textbook government.

When this Government is ready to con fiscate, it will only have poverty to con fiscate.
We are not like Cuba which has millions and millions of dollars.

Our Government can only confiscate poverty I do not know why some ot and jungle.

us do not live on the earth rather than live in the skies; and I am appealing to Members on this side of the Council to support this Motion.

As to the mem bers of the Government, I am asking them to accept the Motion in its sincerity for the good of the country as a whole.
I am appealing to this Government to listen to reason so that we can have a flow of capital coming into the country to pro vide for a bright and prosperous to morrow.
Mr. Burnham: Mr. Speaker, nor mally I would have preferred to speak on this Motion after I had heard some com ments or answers from the Government, but as I shall be asking you, Sir, to excuse me at about four o'clock to keep a 4.15 engagement, I thought I should speak now rather than miss the opport unity of ispeaking altogeth~r; and lest some misguided person or persons think tha' I am trying to escape the debate on this subject.

It is particularly interesting, Mr. Speaker, 1:o hear from the hon.
Member for Eastern Demerara about the evils of the ideology of the Leader of the Gov- ernment.

I think there is a local saying which goes as follows: "if houri tell you trench bottom got alligator you must believe 'e."

The hon.

Member for Eastern Deroerara is in a peculiarly happy posi tion as a result of his long association with the elected members of the Government, to tell us about these evils.
I am concerned, to far as So to make a cofil}llunist state attempt unrealistic, is of British Guiana So far as stupid and unpatriotic.

to tie I am concerned, to attei;npt our economy to the communist sector of the world is equally stupid and unpat riotic.

So far as I am concerned, I did not have to wait on the hon.

Member for Eastern Demerara to appreciate the evils of the conpnunist system.
I believe that I learnt these earlier than he and to stop pussy-footing with those who seek to In fact, bring them to British Guiana.

there w,1ts some conflict of opinion as to whether he forsook the communists or the communists forsook him.

That, per haps, will be answered later but, looking at the Motion realistically, I feel that too many irrelevancies have been dragged into the debate.
I can appreciate the ideological re orientation and the political sentiments of the Mover of the Motion, as well as those of the last speaker.

But the question of trade, I submit, is not a matter that we should weigh simply in an ideological scale.

The hon.

Member, at last, having discovered the evils tries to persuade the world that we are the greatest non-com munist country when, in the past, he agreed and posed with those who were communists.

0-l!e false premise here, put forward by the hon.


Member for Eastern Demerara, is that in the world today a country like British Guiana has either got to tie its economy to the Western Free Enterprise system or to the communist system.

That is nonsensical and in the teeth of the facts as we see them in other places like India and Ghana.

As a matter of fact, especially a.

(ter the recent meeting of the General 1553 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1554 jMR.
BURNHAM] t\ssembly of the United Nations, it has become quite clear that there is no necessity, either political or economic, to take up the position of either being a pro West or a pro-East.

There is the inter mediate position of the neutralist politi cally and economically, that can be re flected in the desire or plan of the nation or nations concerned to carry on trade with both blocs, provided that on each occasion the particular trade deal tencis to the advantage of the nation.
We have heard a lot about the free enterprise system iof the West.

That is particularly interesting, and though it may be a very good pass-word or by-word, I wonder how far it can be established, for there is no such economy in the world no national economy in the world, in cluding that of the United States-which can be really described as free enter prise.

I think that •type of economy has passed.


11he next point is this: We, as legis lators, must approach matters like these without heat, without cant and without shibboleths.

The last speaker is guilty of the same type of behaviour as those whom he criticizes are guilty of.

If we want British Guiana to sell her surplus products we must consider the matter I will agree that the Minister carefully.

of Trade and Industry has made a hope less mess of this timber deal with Cuba.
As a matter of fact I have, here, the type script of his speech delivered over the radio where he states the amazing posi tion thus.

In effect D r. Jagan said in his broad cast "I would not have gone to Cuba had I not been on my way to Venezuela, but I went to Cuba because I had two import ant matters to look into in Cuba."

What logic 1 It is.

hery [ho.

!diiJg up the type scripti].


two important matters to look into but still he would not have gone to Cuba in the interest of 'fh:is oountry, according to him, In other words he had if he had not been en route to Vene zuela.

Of course it is his peculiar form of logic.

Furthermore, the hon.

Minister of Trade and Industry has been unfair to this Council on every occasion that he has gone abroad, allegedly to negotiate for loans or new trade relations.
He chooses the ,street-corners, or some place as far dist.ant from Georgetown as possible, to tell the public what he did, what he did not do, or what he failed to do.

So the best he can do is to use Gov ernment's time on the radio to do his politiking and to make some passing and far from relevant remarks to the parti cular subjects which are his charge and within his portfolio.

It is interesting, first of all in this timber deal, to notice that the hon.
Min ister was trying to out-imperialist the imperialists, for when he went to Cuba he told them "We are going to give you concessions.

You come in."

But his new found friend had to tell him that that smacked of imperialism.

It is amusing to find the self-styled leader of the anti imperialists being prepared to introduce a new form of imperialism.

That is where I think he has opened himself to castiga tion.

He always talks about imperialists coming in and milking the country.

Quite rightly.
Quite rightly.

He always talks about imperial ists having concessions within a col,onial territory, but Castro had to tell him that the proposal he was putting to• him for Cuban concessions in timber in British Guiana smacked of imperialism.

Let me quote from his lest it be alleged that I have misquoted or mis understood.

It says: typescript "They said quite frankly to me that these proposals smacked of imperialism."
A little earlier in the typescript the Min ister says: "You will recall that I mentioned some time ago that we will be prepared to consider sympathetically, firstly, the granting of a lease to others, or, secondly, r ..- 1555 Timber Concessi,ons 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1556 form a joint company with to the Cubans.

The Cuban Government, how ever, do not want to take advantage of either of these two proposals."
anti In other words, this champion imperialist had to be t aught by the Cubans what imperialism really was.

It shows is only opposed to one form of imperialism but I continue to quote the not to another.

hon.

Minister: this Government that "They did not want in• any way to exploit our man-power or material re sources.

They were prepared to help as far as they could.

They offered to make available over the next two years a loan to the equivalent of about $8½M.
This loan will be repayable over ten years after the project gets underway.

The rate of interest will be 2% and payment will be made in timber products.

Techni cal assistance will be provided, if we re quire it, to help us to work out the details of such a project."
I should feel that if this Government bad been able to negotiate this new trade agreement with Cuba, and in view of the fact that for the first time a local repre sentative of the people of this country, as distinct from our British overlords, bad been able to carry out negotiations, there should have been something much more thorough than this; there should have been a White Paper and more courtesy shown to the Legislative Council.
As regards this $8½ million loan which is to be made to British Guiana, first of all Cuba has no money to lend, ~t so far as I am concerned, if a man is prepared to lend me money, as long as I am sure he has not stolen it I do not care where he borrows it to lend me.

Cuba has no money; she has just got $100 million from Russia and $42 million from I think that first of all Czechoslovakia.
we should have been told what form this $8½ million loan which, according to the statement by the Minister, is offered at an attractive rate of interest, is to take.

Is it going to take the form of actual money with which we can purchase com modities, machinery or equipment in the Cuban.

or other markets ?

If it is not going to take the form of money, what form is it going to take?

What exactl• are the things that are going to be sent here?
We should also want to know if instead of money, equipment and ma chinecy are to be given,.

that they are not priced at the price of those who are selling, because very frequently in inter national trade agreements between large and small powers, the large power prices what it sells and pru;es what it buys.

Therefore there is no equality between the two bargaining parties.

I should have thought that the Min ister would have condescended to detail.
So far as I am concerned this country can trade with satan as long as the particular trade deal which is put through with Mr. Satan, or Mr. Castro, or Mr. Franco enures to the benefit of British Guiana.

Personally I do not believe in all this talk about not trading with X because X is a communist.
Of course you also have to be consistent and say you must not trade with Franco's Spain because, so far as I am concerned, I cannot see that Franco's Spain is any more of a demo cracy than Khrushchev's Russia or Fidel Castro's Cuba.

The question that must be considered at every twist and turn is whether we get out of the deal the best for the resources, the commodities or the items which we are sending to the other country.
The Minister has brought on himself the criticisms from the two Mem bers who have spoken so far, because if he had condescended to details and given us a clean idea of what we were to get out of th1s deal there would not have been this confused thinking.

I want also to observe that I can not agree with the hon.

Member for Eastern Demerara (Mr. Beharry) who says it is good for Ghana to trade with comm~n.ist cou~tries, but it .is not good for Bnt1sh Gmana to trade with com munist countries.
because the leader of the British Guiana Government is a com~ munisi sympathizer.

As to his statements of fact I am in complete agreement with \ 1557.

Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1558 [MR. BURNHAM] him ( 1) that places like Ghana trade with communist countries, (2) that the leader of this Government is pro-communist if not communist.

But certainly that is no excuse for saying that British Guiana should not trade with a communist coun try or an allegedly communist country.
That is to blur and to confuse the issues.

If you think, as I do, that the present Government under its present leader is a Qane to this country and is carrying this country quickly down the hill, you must do something about it.

I warned people like the hon.

Member for Eastern Dem erara about that years ago, but he did not I warned him even before take heed.

1957, but he did not take heed.

His argument has nothing logical in it.


What is more is that people like him are doing their best in their own way to ensure that this same Government - a com munist Government according to them gets back into office.

That is the contra diction of these political neophytes.

to So far as I know, with a deal of $8½ million we cannot shackle our economy to that of Cuba, but we cannot say whether it would be in the interest of this country until we know all the details and all the facts.
It may well be that we may be able to supply what in the open market is $8½ million worth of timber to Cuba, and Cuba may be able to supply us with so-called technical assistance.

know more like I would about technical assistance; how this long have the Cubans been forestry ex perts.

It may be that in carrying through this deal with Cuba we may be robbing ourselves of the opportunity to supply other willing and better customers.

Those are facts which are relevant and import ant.


Whether it is trade with Cuba or with the United States it does not matter.

The point you have to make sure on is that a trade deal is rhe best deal you can get in the circumstances, and what is more, that it is in the interest of British Guiana.

the But whether leader of the P .P .P.

is communist or not is not the point.


The point is whether or not the item of trade is in the interest of the country and, secondly, whether or not the trade deal will tend to chain our economy to that of another country; i"n other words, whether we are going to move into a new form of economic imperialism with a new economic imperialist master.
The objection I would have to trading with co,mmi,mist countries would arise if a trade deal or bargain was such that a large percentage of our economy was dependent upon our relations with the I would p.:rticular communist country.

object then because we would be making ourselves slaves to a new master, and in that context it would be no answer to say that Great Britain trades with Russia.

trades because whil~t Great Britain with Russia, only 2.6 per cent.

of her trade is with the Soviet Union.


There fore tbere can be no question of the Soviet Union exercising an undue influ ence on the economy of Great Britain.

I cannot for one moment agree with the contention of the hon.

Member for Eastern Demerara that if we traded with Cuba those countries in the West which have capital to invest would not want to invest in British Guiana.

That is a non .reQuitur.

I do not agree with some mis guided individual calling another indivi dual the greatest liberator in.
the world.

But that is not germane to the problem.

is germane to the problem is What whether or not trade with Cuba or trade with Russia or any communist country would necessarily mean that we would It has not been frighten investors away.

the case in other countries, and I do not see why it should be the case in British If, as is happening, investors Guiana.

are being frightened away, it is not be cause of any trade with Cuba.

We have not started trading with Cuba or Russia.


The reason for investors being frightened away is the attitude and known convic tions of the leader of this Government, not the fact of whom the Government trades with.

1559 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1560 If the Leader of the Government goes around saying he is a Marxist and he hates private property, what do you expect?
Any Marxist who says he did not say he hates private property is in fact saying that he is not a Marxist, or that though he did not say it he does That is what the "Bible" believe it.

says.

[Dr. Jagan: 'That is from an ex Marxist."]

I agree that there is a lot that is attractive in Marxism, but I do not accept it as a whole nor would I be a Stalinist.

[Dr. Jagan: "A Titoist?"]

These people are always ready with toys.


I will tell you more about that when the quarrel between Soviet Russia and Com munist China develops a little further.

[Dr. Jagan: "Fence-sitting".]

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

It is not with whom we are trading that is going to frighten investors, it is the attitude and the known convictions of the Leader of the Government.

I would say that trading with Cuba does not necessarily mean that we are tying ~:ur economy to Cuba or Russia.
I would say further that we are not in a position to judge things, _because of the incompetence of the Leader of the Gov ernment to tell us whether or not the par ticular deal to which he referred cursorily on the radio is in the interest of British Guiana and, therefore.

we do not know what we have.

Perhaps when one of the spokesmen of the Government re plies, he will be able to tell us what the position is.

If a White Paper had been pub lished the Council would have been in a better position to decide.
This Govern ment does not govern in the normal fashion, it governs on street comers, at Press Conferences and it governs during the 1 ½ hours per day the Government gets on the Radio Station.

If this Government this Motion it is its own fault, and I would seek to have the Government explain in full detail the terms and conditions of this deal with Cuba, so that we can is embarrassed by arrive, -after careful thought, at a de cision as to whether or not it is in the If it best interests of British Guiana.
If it is an unfair bargain, out with it.

is a fair bargain, nothing is wrong with it.

Mr. Campbell: The hon.

Mover of the Motion in introducing it said that the people of British Guiana are per turbed over various things they hear, and one of these things is the proposed deal between this Government and the Gov ernment of Cuba for vast concessions in this country.

I do not have the elo quence of my colleague on my right, and I cannot understand what he says.
At one time he says it is a bad thing, and at another time he says it is a good thing.

I am supporting the Motion.

I cannot understand liim.

The less we have to do with Cuba at the moment the better it will be for British Guiana, for today Cuba is asso~ ciated with many bad things.

They are lining up people against the wall and shooting them.

That, to my mind, is not a nice thing; that is something to frighten anybody.
I do not think we should have trade dealings with a nation that comd take people to court; line them up against a wall and shoot them.

This Government says nothing about it.

When 69 Africans were shot this Government made a tremendous amount of fuss here, but when certain people are shot daily in Cuba and elsewhere nothing is said about the matter.

That is the kind of thing I cannot understand.

If it i.s wrong for South Africa, it sh!ould be wrong for Cuba and everybody else in the world.
There is nothing in demo cracy, liberty and freedom which gives people the right to kill people under these names.

Let us raise our voices in the name of democracy whenever things are going wrong.

Why should peopJ'e be allowed to shoot others and do all man nei· of things?

I cannot understand it.

1561 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 Th Cuba 1562 [MR. CAMPBllLL] If you permit me, Sir, I propose to read from a section of "Time" magazine.
Everybody reads it in British Guiana, and I think it indicates a little bit of what is going on in Cuba today from the econo Some people may say that mic angle.

The Maga it is merely propaganda.

It com zine is dated 24th October.

mems on the U.S.A.'s answer to the 4-hour talk Mr. Castro gave to the It assembly in the Security Council.

states: "The U .S.

need not worry that a strategic embargo will damage private industry in Cuba.

It no longer exists."

Whatever it was the matter is now dead.


The magazine goes on to state: in 26 categories, "Rising from an all-night Cabinet session last week, Castro's Puppet Presi "The dent Osvaldo Dorticos announced: full economic development of the nation cannot be achieved without adequate planning of the economy."
With that the government nationalized 382 busi including 105 nesses sugar mills, 13 department stores, 18 dis• tilleries, 61 textile factories, eight rail ways and all banks, save the Royal Bank of Canada and the Bank of Nova Scotia.

it abolished ownership of N e:xt day apartment houses in effect, by decreeing that tenants who continued paying rents for another five to 20 years (depending on the buildings' .age) could hereafier take permanent possession.
Thus ended Cuba's long association with free enterprise.

Having already ex propriated 80% of the $1 billion U.S. investment in Cuba, the government now dropped the axe directly on local Cuban owned businesses.

Many had already been intervened on a "temporary" basis; now the takeover was declared irrevo cable.

Out Go the Lights.

The move all only intensify the chaos in Cuba's eco nomy.

For some time Havana has been exchanging its prosperous Western look for Iron-Curtain drab.
Street lights go out and stay out for lack of light bulbs; hotels are deserted; grocers ingeniously display dwindling stocks to disguise bare shelves, and housewives spend their days in weary search for disappearing neces sities, from razor blades to black beans."

When I read things like these I can imagine what is happening to those I have nQt been to Cuba, and people.
I have to depend on what is written in the Reader's the "Time" Magazine, Digest and other papers which come from England and other sources.

When I look at the "Thunder'' it states every thing about the sweetness in Cuba!

I have read between the lines; I have learnt to read between the lines; I take the three newspapers: the "Daily Chronicle", the "Argosy" and the "Daily Graphic", and I read between the lines.

Of course, they may be inaccurate at times.


Then I take the "New Nation", the "Thunder" and so on, because I have an uncanny eye for picking out truth from false I have used hood.

my own discretion and my own judg ment and have come to the conclusion that carrying on trade, at the moment, with Cuba is not going to be in the best I interest of the people of this country.

am convinced of that.

I have done that.

We are part and parcel of the Western bloc.


The United States of America has millions of dollars she can throw into British Guiana, but why is it that her copitalists are not They are afraid of our un coming?

the moment.

stable Government at Canada has millions, Foreign too.
capitalists have said: British Guiana has tremendous amount of natural re a sources, but we refuse to go to British Guiana to invest as long as there was the present Government messing around the That is what the capitalists of place.

the Western Bloc say.

I have come to the conclusion that the whole world is one is divided into two ideologies - known as the democracy of the West and the other is called Marxism, Communism, Stalinism or call it what you may.

At the moment it is just purely hide and seek.


Since I have been in this Council there has been a lot of talk about inde pendence in terms of self-government, 1563 Timber Concessions 2ND N~VEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1564 and I have said: no independence for me now unless the people of British Guiana are ready for it.

Are we ready for it?

I say not for independence; we are ready to be regimented by dict.a tofship instead.

The Guianese has not started to study his proper politics yet.
What do we have in British Guiana today?

We have ex-indentured people, ex-slaves and we have aborigines.

We have no tradition; we have no culture.

All we have is just talk.

The Minister of Communications and Works: (Mr. Ram Karran): The debate this afternoon reminds me of the time when the British Emissary was chased out of the Russian Court.

History has a way of repeating itself.

Today, of course, it is the other way round.

We have heard nothing new in this discussion.


We have heard the record played over again as is usually the case.

Everything has gone on as we have expected.

There has been no surprises.

Today, we are told in this Council that we must not trade with the Cubans; tomorrow we may be told we must not If Vene trade with somebody else.
zuela, for instance, decides to change their form of government, British Gui ana must take a firm decision not to trade with Venezuela; and if Brazil, to, morrow, changes their form of Govern ment, we will be told we must no longer trade with them.

Why must _we stop trading with a country with which we werej associated for sometime because somebody is not in agreement with its policy?

This attitude reminds me of some peopie's approach to ,their neigh bourly problems.
If we have a quarrel with someone, we are apt to say to our next door neighbour: "Please do not speak to so-and-so because we have That ~s the attitude ex fallen out".

pressed in this Motion.

But it goes further and freedom has been brought in.

Freedom is one of the things in which we are very interested.

We have heard a lot of quotations ad nauseam from the hon.

Member for irrelevant as usual.

Demerara River - There were also quotations from the hon.
Member for North Western District written by people who, he claims, are in the writing business; but what about the other sidei of the picture?

I am not here to defend Cuba.

Cuba is capable of defending herself.

Dr. Fidel Castro bas demonstrated that; but one would have expected that those who talked about democracy would, at least, have tried, even though it was not their in tention, to represent the other side of the picture.

We have heard about Dr. Castro's regime.


Have we heard about the Batista regime and the violenoe that took place?

The hon.

Member talked about men being put to stand up and shot.

I pr•esume he must have done some re search in the way in which the Cubans were destroyed in the pro-Castro regime.

I do not know whether men were put to stand or lie while they were executed, but I know thait the position was black - in the Batista regime.

Dictators change very often, but the is different.


change Many are the stories about these Latin American dictators.

One of them goes like this: "Manuello ran for Mayorship and he made it; Manuello ran for Gov ernorship and he made it; Manuello r-an for Pfesidency and he made it; but poor Manuello, he runs for the border, he does not make it".
very black - in Cuba today As I said, there has been a differ ence between the Cuban revolution and the xevolution in which Manuello was involved in that Cuba's present regime has decided to strengthen its revolution and prevent it from going in the w-ay other revolutions have gone in Latin America.

That is what causes the ex pressions of disgust and fear coming from other quarters.
Had Fidel Castro decided, after winning the revolution, to 1565 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1566 [MR. RAM KARRAN] share money and jobs around to the limited few then there would have been praises from every quarter.

Fidel Castro would have been a liberator to those people.

But, unfortunately, Castro de cided to play the game properly ,so far as the workers are concerned and that has brought about considerable criticisms from the former ruling class and their friends.
had taken friends If my the trouble to find out the Cuban situation prior to Castro's regime, even though it was glittering with tlre beautiful night clubs, behind it were ignorance and poverty and disease.

But it did not concern them to go behind this wall.
No dm}bt, that ;i:s the so1~t of lthin1g they wouild like introdllced in British Guiana, where you would have got a beautiful facade of glittering chinas and with American capital being offered and in vited to come in but where our own people - would have been living a life of misery and exploitation.

That is the tradition w,e have been advised to retain.

the peasants and farmers - I have heard that independence is Indeed, it is just around the corner.
just arounr,l the corner; but I wish to assur,e those Members who had been talking so glibly of it, had it been for them independence would be another century away.

Had it not been for the determin,:1tion of the People's Progressive independence Party, as enunciated at the London Conference would not have been obtained.

the principle of "Why do you have to trade with Cuba?"

asks one hon.
asks one hon.

Member who mentioned that we are getting millions of dollars of free money - I think he said "doles from the U:n,ited Kingdom".

Of course the hon.

Member's memory is poor.

Did he take the trouble to recall the millions of dollars that go out of this country and have gone out of this country over a century ago?

Had he done so he would know that what we are getting now in the form of C.D.
& W. grants are not gifts to British Guiana, but our own money which was sent across the seas to :eritain in bygone years, and even to the present.

That is why the highly developed countries like the United States of America and Brit ain have adopted the principle that their wealth, which was obtained by plunder from the small countries for centuries, should be used for the development of those countries today.
We all know that the United Nations have accepted the principle that the under-developed coun tries of the world should be assisted.

Hon.

Members should acquaint themselves with the facts before they attempt to use this Legislative Council as a forum to fool the public of this coun try when they talk about doles and grants I repeat that the made to this country.

money which is coming to British Guiana in the form of C.D.
& W. grants and other assistance is really money which has been exported from this country over the years.

Not very long ago there was great agitation on the question of Guianization.

the principle of Our Party accepted Guianiz-ation and Government is work ing towards Guianization of the Civil Ser vice of this country as far as practicable.

But one cannot lose sight of the fact that a lot of money goes out of the coun try in the form -of pensions to imperialist agents and others.
We have been hearing for gener ations about the "white man's burden" in holding th,e Colonies.

We have heard it said that independence is just around the corner.

Why aJ.Ce they opposed to giv ing us independence now or ne~t year?

If we a1°e a burden to them let them cut out their grants and give the people of this country the right to govern themselves.

Why do they hold up independence while their agents talk about grants?
1567 Timber Concessions 2ND NovEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1568 We have heard some quotations a bout what happened the other day in Egypt, Ghana and India, but have they taken the trouble to look a little further?

Have they looked across to Trinidad to see what is happening there?

Dr. Eric Williams is fighting and making himself very unpopular with certain people by urging the remov-al of the American naval base at Chaguaramas.
The CubanG want the same right as Dr. Williams to have the American base removed from their territory where it has been for a very long time.

Why should Trinidad insist that the American base be removed from their island and the Cuban Govern ment should not have the same right?

Are these people setting up different yardsti~ks of democracy in different parts of the world?

I remarked just now that hon.

Mem bers had not loot<ed far enough.


Had they gone to Japan they would have seen that this philosophy which they would have us believe is so good, has lost out in Japan which has been associated with the It has Americans for a very long time.

not only lost out in Japan but in the en tire Far East, and what is talting place in Cuba today is something which we must let the Cubans decide whether it is good for them or not.
We in this Legislature in British Guiana are not qualified to decide what form of govern ment the Cubans should have.

Is In his Momon the hon.

Membe,r for Demera.ria River request'S Govern ment not to grant concessioDJs to the it suggested Cuban Government.

that we propose to give the Cubans con cessions which we are not prepared to grant to Americans, the British or the Germans?

That is not true.
That is not true.

Govern ment wishes to have this country's titn ber and other resources developed, and it does not matter by whom they ~1re de veloped so long as the country gets a fair deal.

How can hon.

Members talk ~bout development, the removal of un- employment and improving the standard of living of the people when in the same breath they say they do not want this and do not want that fom1 of develop ment?

The hon.
The hon.

Mover of the Motion ba_s himself moved in this Council that a trade delegation be sent to Venezuela and Brazil.

A delegation went to Venezuela.

and I would like to know wha:t would be the position if the Venezuelans de cided to change their form of govern ment - if socialists, communists, or fascists took control of the Government?

Would the hon.

Member move another Motion suggesting that British Guiana should not ·trade with Venezuela?
Two years ago several countries were pensuaded to adopt the soc3Jalist In fact it was only in this way of life.

decade that the gr,eat sub-continent of China decided to overthrow the regime of the masters who are now ·si·tting on the island of Formosa, and established a Gov ernment which has the support of the Chinese people.

Is the hon.

Member going to urge this Government not to tr-ade with China?

What would be the position if and when some of our tradi tional markets decided to go socialists?
Is the hon.

Member going to tell us to It trade with the people in the moon?

seems to me that this Motion is not only puerile but childish, and I am sure that this Council will come to· the conclusion that the Government of the day must de cide whether trade relations offered by · any country in the world are acceptable and are to the benefit of this country.

We have been borrowing money from the United Kingdom for a very long time.
The situation is now altered in that other people are willing to lend this Government money at cheaper rates of interest.

The so-called Defenders of Fl'eedom talk about blood money.

Hon.

Members are aware of the source of the money we are borrowing today at a high It is coming from rate of interest.

people who have exploited the wealth 1 1569 Timber c,mcessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1570 [MR. RAM KARRAN] and people of this country.
The other day when the Minister of Trade and In dustry was offered a loan of $10 million by the Swiss Bank it was suggested that the money had come from the Latin American dictators - King Farouk and It is said tha:t the the rest of them.

loan offered by Cuba is blood money.

What is the description of the money we are now getting at higher rates of in terest?

The money which was obtained from •the exploitation of countries like India and Ghana is even bloodier than the Cuban money we are hoping to get.
I desire to make a Mr. Tello: brief contribution in support of the Motion, and I am not going to be worried about the ideology of the present Government, and how it is linked with that of the Cuban Government, because I am beginning to be quite certain that this is the Swan Song of the Members of the present Government.
What worries me is that in normal everyday business when people enter into trade agreements, whether national or inter they are guided by certain national, principles, and they use universally ac cepted yardsticks to measure the correct ness of the business venture.

They ask themselves "Can good business accrue from what we are going to do?

Do the people with whom we propose to trade have a good reputation for honouring Is it better to do business their debts?"

for cash or for kind?


Has this Govern ment examin~d carefully the financial capacity of the people or the Government lf it is with which it proposes to deal?

the Government of Cuba then we should examine the whole economic structure of that country.

We are groping in the dark and the hon.

Mover of the Motion is perplexed by the same problem.

Members of this Council have no more information than the man in the street who heard the broadcast or read in the Press vague references to the broadcast.
themselves before I suppose that those who attend meetings at street comers have even re ceived more information than is accorded us here.

We know that while it is customary and traditionally accepted that some people will have the right to govern under our constitution, yet the people should not enjoy special rights outside of the Legislature.

They must qualify they are elevated to the more important position of participating in actual administration.
I feel that the same tradition that made it possible for certain people to become Members of the Executive Council and make a decision o,n behalf of half-million people, the same practice makes it in cumbent on them to consult their fellow legislators before committing half-million people important decision or arrangement.

It is not possible to con sult with everybody direct, and this medium has been offered.
to any to ideological Inasmuch as the Government could not have prepared a White Paper for sub mission this Council makes one suspicious and indicates that something is wrong-probably the matter is clouded with shadows.

My hon.

Friends have commented a great deal on this matter, and it is not necessary for me to emphasize certain things.

Although I am not a businessman, I want to deal with this matter in ·a stlictly business-like manner.
I read in the "Time" Magazine dated 31st August, 1960-this Magazine enjoys a reputation as being regarded as somewhat authentic-"that the economic Czar admitted that there was little cash left in Cuba".

Here is this seemingly benevolent Government willing to give loans to us and at the sametime admitting that its own financial position is pre carious!

Let us look upon ourselves as a Board of Directors the people of British Guiana as shareholders in a Company.
The shareholders are the taxpayers, and we are entrusted with the custody of the taxpayers' money.
We representing 1571 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1572 that have a business proposition before us, and as we look at it we see on the other side of the bargaining table a new Gov ernment with little or no experience of administration-a new Government that has publicly admitted there is imminent danger of its being overthrown by another Government, and has found it necessary to make official complaint to the August body of the International United Nations.
You have the same Government publishing in "Time" Maga zine that its economy is rather pre carious.

It does not have money; it does not have the wherewithal to do certain things, it is nationalizing industries, and taking over private enterprises.

rush into an Agreement with such people?

That would not be in the interest of our country.

We should not take that sort of gamble.

The United States of America, Russia and people who can afford to lose money can take that sort of gamble.
Should we send away the timber we have in this country to Cuba, when we are not sure how we will be paid for it?

Should V'{e send away our timber because we have the power and like one man in a Government?

Should we take the economy of our country and push it down the drain in one gamble ?

That is exactly what this Government is trying to do at the moment.

is also Some of my hon.


Friends seem to feel that it is unseen pressure, or faith in an International commitment that propels the Government to move in this manner without the necessary thought and pre caution.

The hon.

Minister of Trade and Industry the Leader of the Majority Party, and I feel that he has tremendous influence on the editorial policy of the official organ, "Thunder".
I read in the "Thunder" that Russian machinery is necessary in British Guiana to provide ~mployment for our people so tha t money could be circulated.

I agree that we need more money in British Guiana.

I would support the Government in any attempt to get more money in order to employ people, but is this sup ported by facts ?

I have with me th,e Report of the Development Programme up to June of this year, and what do I see in it?
Gov ernment is aware that up to June this year there has been a tremendous amount of unemployment and under-employment, and it forced Government to seek money from places where money did not exist from a Government whose financial posi tion at the moment is precarious.
The Cuban Government has admitted that it does not have money to take care of its should nationalize If any Government has to embark on a business project, one would say that if it believes in the socialist way of life it would bargain with a Government that is going to honour its bonds.

Nation alization is not a bad thing; it is some times a very good thmg in the interest of the public.
I agree that if an invest ment is too tricky for private enterprise but is of grave interest to the public, the Government the industry.

But I feel that anyone who lives in that particular country and owns property should not be troubled in mind, if he were satisfied that the economy of the country was such that the Gov ernment could honourably enter into nationalization.

Does not the samething apply if we are going to enter into a trade it not or -bargaining Agreement?
Is true that we are obligated to the people who sent us here and are the custodians of the taxpayers' money?

Before enter ing any form of International Agreement, we should ensure that the Government of the country we propose to trade with has the type of economy that would enable it to honour the Agreement.

We see things written blatantly bet fore our eyes.

The "Time" magazine states that the economy of Cuba is in a very precarious position; the Government is not sure of its future.
Do you want to - - 1573 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cflba 1574 • [MR. TELLO] own business.

The Cuban Government has a reputation for not paying its debts.

The situation is of such that we must get money from somewhere.

When I look at the Progress Report on the Development for the quarter end ing 30th June, I observe that Government had $25,967 million and only $5,903 million was spent.

Does that sort of spending demonstrate Government's re cognition of the great need for money?
Do not tell me that you do not have the materials, technicians and equipment necessary to do the jobs and that is the reason why you have not spent the money.

It is time for the Government to resign.

Are you going to borrow more money and pay more interest on it when you are not ready to use it?

No man in the street would borrow money from a corporation to build a house without first finding out where he is going to get the materials and technicians from.

Here is a Government with $20 million idling.


If you calculate the inter est on this money for six months, I believe you will be able to do a lot of things with it.

I do not doubt that the Government might have been pressured to move quickly to get money to solve the unemployment problem, but I refuse to believe it now that I have read this Re port.

No wonder some Members are now the worker's cause has saying nothing to do with it.
This is an Inter national commitment that transcends an ideological system.

Perhaps it may be better to keep fraternal ties than to take time to think out what should be done with $20 million well knowing that it is coupled with 60% of our unemployment.

It has now reached an alarming figure of 60%.

that And, Sir, as a trade unionist, what certainly hurts me and my movement is the fact that while this $20 million was idl-ing, people were retrenched from their jobs in the Service.
Thiis is the kind of fooling the Government we have - - people all along and seeking cheap money; but the cheapest is not always the best.

lectured to us that My hon.

Friend, the Minister of Communications and Works, ac tually some of this money which is coming back to us is just some of the money which has to been exploited.
I am not prepared argue that, but in Washington I saw there, a diagram showing the financial assistance offered by the various metro politan governments to their colonies by way of grants.

I regret very much that I have not got the paper here, but from what I have seen for myself, the British Government was way ahead of any other metropolitan government.

Their contri bution to the colonies as against the French, Dutch and Spanish was more than 50 times.

The next best of them was the Dutch.


What are we talking about?

We are talking about human beings.

In those days that was the current thought.

The people felt that they had a right to own money so that their children could enjoy a better standard of living than they.

Our own workers who were appointed super visors and drivers over their own folks, al.so joined in the exploitation of their own folks .

The drivers accepted as the current practice or .


a lawful thing to I am cer exploit their fellow workers.

tain if those people were to live their lives over, and meeting this new evolu iion, they would fit themselves into the atmosphere; and if it were possible for them to be benefited by their experience, they would quicken the pace of progress we are now making.

that, inasmuch as I am trying to impress upon this hon .
Council the Government has a right to make decisions on these )Jlatters, I also claim that there is a moral obligation on the part of the administration to keep this Council in formed, because at one stage they may have to come to this Council in another form-Finance Committee-and ask for money that is contingent to this same 1575 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1576 deal.

There have been vague references to this deal and from the inadequate information given to us in this hon.
Coun cil, I feel that it would be a dangerous thing for this hon.

Council to go on re cord as approving- if we do not support this Motion then we are disapproving the conduct of the Government in this particular matter.

And this is one way in which we can show our disapproval.

Can we just give ready approval to some thing we know little of when the little we know does not recommend to us?

itself I am saying: We cannot liken this Council.


to a Board of Directors- for that was the proposition presented to us, that we inte11d tQ deal with Cuban business men ~ when the Cuban businessmen themselves lacked experience.

And I am reliably informed that they do not enjoy a good reputation for honouring their debts.
I am also beginning to believe my information that the man who is quali fied to speak for the Cubani Govern ment on financial matters has openly admitted that there is little money; then I believe that they had not honoured their deb ts with Surinam and that there are organizations in British Guiana which are also awaiting payment from the Cuban Government.

Do those things recommend to us that we should embark on larger and bigger matters?

We have a responsibility.


If we want to be charit able; if we want to pretend that we are out to assist the Cuban Government to get on its feet and build up its own trade, we can go ahead.

But we cannot forget the fact that at our disposal is very little to place us on a level economic keel.
I am appealing to this Government to await the time when the Cuban Gov ernment, themselves, can say to us: well, we are out of the woods; we have gone through our growing pains; we are bigger boys and can more afford to assist you as we are economically O.K.

It is said that the cheapest is not always the best.

Many of us lose our small investments trying to buy expensive things cheaply.
How many times are our people not lured by the temptations that face us in British Guiana and have paid heavily be cause they tried to dabble in something looked cheap without properly tb.at examining it.

I said that the Cubans have not reached any degree of stability yet, for a small country like ours to be embarking on this gamble.

This is no trade agree ment.

This is an out-and-out gamble.

It is better you take a chance with some Fabulous Pool, you may get through better.
I would not be surprised if I wake up tomorrow morning and learn there is no Castro in Cuba anymore.

He is built on propaganda.

He cannot float a Government yet, and that is the type of country we are going to deal with.

I know that all over the world there have been people and organizations and governments borrowing and lending money at the same time.

Cuba has been in that same position.

-Cuba has been obtainitlg grants and giving assistance, especially military assistance.
But I feel we should sit aside and see the ultimate result of all these exercises.

It is not correct-it would not be proper for us ~o be-tray the trust of the taxpayers• mogey and gamble it with people who are, themselves, gambieris.

What are they going to offer us?

Since when Cubans are technicians?

Up they are waiting on Russian technicians.

What are we going to get from them?-some pro pagandists?
I am not scared about it, but the position is simply this: if those people have not got any money to trade with us, they are not qualified to assist us technically; and if we are to accept the infallibility of the Press, they are receiv ing aid from Russia.

What ,they have?

to now ~ 1577 Timber Concessions 2ND NOVEMBER, 1960 To Cuba 1578 [MR. TELLO] I have heard that overnight they had become exper·ts· on timber resources, tim ber trade and timber development.

I do not think Cuba is a woodland.


It is new information that, through this Govern ment, the world is now being informed that yott can now find timber experts in Cuba.

I think it will be shocking to the Cubans themselves to hear that they have such wonderful talent that they never made nor cannot make use of.

their own responsibility to prepare II White Paper.

Have they not got mater• ial to prepare it?

Is it a difficult thing to prepare a White Paper and present it to this Council?
Sir, I think I will stop here seeing that it is almost five o'clock.

Mr. Speaker: I do not think it will be profitable to continue when it doe!I not end the debate.

ADJOURNMENT - I am saying that we are committed If we do not, it to oppose this· thing.

means that w~ ·approve it and we will be following- the Government in hetraying the trust of the electors who have pu1 them here.

Here is a major question to be decided.


They cannot even honour The Chief Secretary: I beg to move that Council adjourn until two o'clock tomorrow, Thursday, 3rd November, 1960.

Council adjourned accordingly, at five o'clock.

w -i !'

--<.. '1 I'· -~ ~