Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698069657671.pdf (Guyana)
1689 16!

:JO LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Mr. T. Lee 7-lominated Unofficials: ( Constitiitecl (Constitution) ( Temporary Gwfo.nr;.

Provisions) uncler the British Orcle1· in Council.

1953).

Mr. L. A. Luckhoo, Q.C.

Rev.

D. C. J. Bobb Mr. H. Rahaman THURSDAY, 7TH MARCH, 1957 Miss Gertie H. Collins The Council met .at 2 p.m. Dr. H. A. Fraser Mrs. Esther E. Dey PRESENT: Mr. R. B. Jailal Mr. Sugrim Singh His Honour the Speaker, Sir Eustace Gordon Wooiford, Q.C.

O.B.E.

Clerk of the Legislatiire­ Mr.

I. Crum Ewing.


Ex-Offici o Members: Assistant Clerk of the Legislature­ The Hon.

the Chief Secretary, C.M.G., O.B.E.

lVfr.

F. D. Jakeway, Mr. B. M. Viapree (Ag.)

The Hon.

the Attorney General, Absent: Mr. G. M. Farnum (Ag.)

The Hon.

W. 0.

R. l{endall (Mem• and Wo1·ks).

be1· for Communications The Hon.

the Financial Secretary, l\Ir.

F. W. Essex.

The Hon.

R. C. Tello - on leave.

Nominated cil:: Menibers of Execiitive Coim­ The Hon.

Sir Frank McDavicf, C.B.E.


(Member for Agricul­ Lands and Mines).

C.M.G., ture, Forests, Mr .

.J.

I. Hamphal -on leave.

M•·.

'"'l.

A. Phang-on leave.

The Hon.

P. A. Cummings (Mem­ ber for Labom·, Health and Housing).

Mr. C. A. Carter -on leave.

The Hon.

G. A. C. Farnum, O.B.E.

Social Develop­ (ivl:ember Welfare and Co-operative ment).

for Local Government, Mr. E. F. Correia Mr. W. T. Lord, I.S.O._on leave.

The Hon.

R. B. Gajraj The Speaker read prayers.

1691 Gov�nnment Notices 7TI!


MARCH, 1957 Nurses' Salaries Revision 1692 � The Minutes of the meeting of held on Friday, the Council ,vere 1957, as printed taken as read and confirmed.

and circulated, 1st March, LEAVE TO MEMBERS Mr. Speaker: There arc scYeral they have asked to be ex­ a bsent.ees; cused from attendance meeting and they include Mr. Ramphal, Mr. Carter and Mr. Lord.
at today's Mr. TeJlo, PAPERS LAID Sir Frnnk McDavid (Member :for Forests, Lands and .Agriculture, :Mine:;) : On behalf of the Member Health and Hou,;ing 11\lfr .

for Labour, I beg to lay on thP.

tal,le: Cummings), A.n abstract of the number of births and deaths registered 1955. during the year (Mcmbr.i' for Local Mr. l•'arnum (;ovcrnmcnt, t,pcrative lay on the table: Social Welfa1·e Development) : I beg to and Co­ Order in Council No.
9 of 1957 made under Section Prevention 6th day of February, in the Gazette 21 (4) of the Gambling 21, on U1e Chapter 1957, and published on the 2nd of March, 1957.
Ordinance, GOVERNMENT NOTICES H.EMUNERATION ADMINISTERING OF THE OFFICER THE GOVERNMENT The Essex): following Financial I beg to give notice of the motion : Secretary (Mr. ·'Be it resolved: ap­ of the remuneration That this Council ng the Government of lhe Officer being proves Administeri payable (i)the Governor's on the following salary to a of five per cent; and (ii)the full Duty Allow,ince token reduction basis: sub3ect payable to th� gove,:nor."
�- PAYMENT OF COMPANY TAX to after the issue of instalments Hon.

Members will remember notice and two-thirds as now.
That that when the Budget Statement was laid I said that Government intended introduce to make Company legislation tax payable in quarterly instead of one-third the assessment at the end of October, reconsideration in the light of representations by commercial concerns, that legis­ and Government lation is now necessary to make collection ,tssessment to give some form of approval to this aH it has been already stated that Government such would introduce legislation.

to enabl� us for the year of 1957.


I just want C,)llncil and industrial has decided made applies particularly WELCOME TO MR. F. KENNE0Y l\lr.

Speaker: Before proceeding British Office, who has had with matters affect­ but I hope that his to with the Order of the Day, I should like tu extend a warm welcome on be­ half of this Council to Mr. Kennerly of the Colonial Jong experience ing various places.
I do not know whether he has ever visited Guiana before, visit will add useful experience that which he already has.

We all l-:now the difficulties this Colony which we have to face from time to time.

I think Mr. Kennedy will realize from what he has seen, that there are maHy problems with us a whole, and will sympathize in cteafing with our problems.

also that he will have a very pleasant stay in this Colony.
and of the problems in this Colony as which exist in I hope OR.DER OF THE DAY SALARIES REVISION FOR NURSES Council -resumed consideration of motion by the debate on the following the Chief Secretary: .,,,,... 1693 Motion-Nurses' 7TH MARCH, 1957 Sala1·ies Revision 1694 to those who have been otherwise trained ,md are being called under names, and that is why they different as order­ r,bject Staff of Medical lies.
and The Palms, this Council to being now classed That, with refer­ Council Sessional "Be it resolved: ence to Legislative on the proposals of the Paper No.
1/1957 for Nursing, Committee Revision Salaries Allied and Subordinate Institutions llppt oves vf the recommendations tamed therein in paragraph proposed of the Finance Committee, laid on the 1st March, and subject by the Adminis­ consideration further contained in of the suggestions tration 4 to 7 of the Finance Com­ paragraphs mittee's 3 of the report which was to report".

subject con­ to the modificalion of the lalso raised the question to receive merit to require of their case.
Efforts based on the presumption and there is one point seamstresses relatmg to their work which I feel has all the necessary rcc,msideration revi­ are being made in this salaries sion to bring male and female nurses together, that if they are doing the same trpe of ,vork they are entitled .

;nd merit the same salary or wage.

H we are to Jook at the salaries we would see that these seamstresses, they are those of mere artisans and that their male counterparts ceived some benefits.
not been 11Iaced t arpenters or artisans increases?

narticular t-Jiat a genuine effort has been made to both males and females on the Jilace other Der>art- same :footing and I do ask Government 1nents, give the case of these seamstresses some further consideration.

who have received It is noteworthy and other skilled on the same oasis as Why have they in certain workmen, these have re­ to of Mr. Speaker: I think Mr. Luckhoo was speaking last adjourned.

when the debate w:u.: l\'Ir.


Luckhoo: That"s right, Sir.

to Government of time has elapsed, to the ward maids and I point­ If I recall I traced the activities re­ A short interval but hon.

Members might recall what I said on the last occasion.

correctly, lh-ting ed out that in their case we were representing actually the circumstances work; and that one felt the increment recommt:!nded was too small.
In respect orderlies, people who were regarded were doing the work of nurses and had borne the heat of the.

day, were not now being allowed to enioy the cool of the evening.

I pointed out that these for them in the report under which they as nurses, of the ward 'I'hey are not being permit.tee!

they have been doing a that nurses to share the advantages a re going to enjoy by way of salary Although it might be ;,,creases.
nrged that they do not deserve to do so since they had not the requisite certificates, grand job of work with distinction for a great number of years and they rleserrn further consideration.

They on and they occupied.

were carrying v o s t s ranging from probationers up to Charge Nurses.

I am told that they give satisfaction similar and that One rr.calls that the Chief Sect·e­ out that several objec, iary pointeL!
tions were made when this matter -:,,,as m Finance Committee Government did give an undertaking io give further consideration tain cases.

One of these is the case of the dispensers, pleased Secretary), is cor!·ect.

whether my recollection We did ask in Finance CommiLtE;e of dispensers that the question brought back before the Committee the earliest if the hon.

Member (the Chief m replying and I shall be possib)P would stat.­ bu.

at time.
at time.

to cer­ • There are one or two other in­ creases I would like to deal with • ttW"J- C: ... 1695 Motion-Nnrses' 7TH MARCH, 1957 Salaries Rev-ision 1696 Further, I should like to refer are The Health Visitors by the Royal Sanitary for the benefit of health 1f these two posts are e-oing as the chief informed that saves a large sum of money as attendants and gatemen.

I feel tliat the case of these people is also one which merits further considera­ tion by Government.
[Mr. LuckhooJ They include those this afternoon.

and the W�l·d for the Health Visitors Sisters which are being dealt wii;:1 together.

than 1.he now in a higher category owing to their higher Ward Sisters, and wider experiF..ncc, qualifications ,!part from the fact that they arc re­ quired to fake lecture courses which take up to 18 months, or an examina­ tion sponsored Institute services.
to be placed side by side and there is there wotild be no no differentiation, point in sending Health Visit.ors for training abroad in order to obtain higher qualifications, since both posts would enjoy the same salary.

that then> would be no inducement given to Health Visitors higher qualifications if a person with the minimum qualification appointed and obtain the same salary as the Health Visitor.

which, I am convinced.

given further consideration ernment.


who do to the case of attendants ·work additional There to their duties.

is one case in point, although I am speaking generally and do not propose to mention the name of any individual.

There is, in one case, the printer at the Mental Hospital, Berbice, who is regarded printer.
I am reliably the work done by this individual Government each year and a person in that posi­ tion, to my mind, should receive much gr�ater i::; being afforded believe of somethi·ag interesting dix ( to this report), of "Apprentices" statement that certain Hospital ances in cash 01· kind.

I repeat that the case of this individual should re­ ceive further consideration.
there afe porters and other person:-; who have not received benefit in this revision pointed this report was being discussed this Council, there line between I.hose benefits has been made to the effect vf the Mental allow­ than that wn.ich him at present.. a "token" amount boiler mak­ and others.
Prirw to of salaries is a raLhe1· broad who have received under the head one finds that some There is one other point I shou !d to the post of Ward Sister out on the last occasion to find that in the Appen-· will be given certain should 1:,e by Gov­ like $5 per month.

It is and those who have not.


This is a matter cunsi.deration of the artis;.im, any particular he recei.ves attendants and gatcman, employees t h e s c to secure when in lnllc<?d, I can sec could be and, as I I painters, like to make in respect -carpenters, ers, mechanics, the rev1s1on workers were on a higher wage sc� le than ·1,orters, but they are now on the lowest nrng of the scale so far as these increases are concerned.
not even trained as artisans, of these porters, enter these institutions few years they could be found in posts senior am told that previously garded as individuals nnderg-o some training earned the rfght to be regarded J)ersvns having some status, they' a.re bein� placed, on the same seal?

they werf:!

re­ who had to before they Although they �re many gatemen and others as but now and after a to those of the artisans.

I The porters feel, it would appear.


that they should not receive similar treatment given to porterf employed They in any commercial concern.

contend that consideration is not given to the fact that incidental to their employment i-:iitutions Having accepted naturally the point they make - and I think the point which one might well they employment accepted the risks, but in such in­ there are certain risks.
1697 Molion-l-hr,rses;7TI-I MARCH, 1957 Salaries Revision 1698 0utsicle who, for example, make ··on their behalf - i� that more pay than t11ey are not receiving of those in­ employed porters stitutions su b.iect to infectious who do not have to handle people who are mentally the risks involved.

of view it seems that the positi'.m of the porters might well receive furth�r consideration.
are not and From that point unstable, diseases, with all some Mr. Luckhoo: Thank you, Y011r that the only in the omnibus which has is by Government to obtain Honour.

As regards the male rn1rses, it is rnther peculiar recommendation report of the Committee not been accepted the one which endeavours for the male nurses an additional increment.

2, wholesale cne would have expected ment would have given further c011sideration nurses which the Committee into very closely.
·where there has been sur.h of the l'c!pon that Govern­ to the case of the male adoption w0.,1t from ability to another but it is a point worth;,· and qualifications.
What is rather important �i:his has nothing to do with the revision of salari{)s of note) is that an effort should be made to promote individuals one group of employees group, provided they have the necessary 'What I mean is that a porter who is in receipt of a salary ranging from $40 to $60 per month should aspire and L1oes aspire to be a gateman, in which position salary of $80 to $100 per month.

But there have been instances v1hen a gateman's vacant an entirely !Jeen brought in to fill the post.
where post has become new person has he would receive a There is an extant case which from the in w h i c h occun-ed very recently, a mason was broughit Labour D e p a r t m e n t to fill the post as gateman.

I �hink every ;t;hat as a general principle effort should be made to see that those who are employed in these insti­ tutions are given every opportunity to improve their position, provided, of course, they have the necessary strength and ability qualifications, that are required.
What has happened in the past should not be permitted to continue, ·with it a feel.ing not like the word because it is very much over-worked, but for want cf a better word-frustration because it does bring of frustration.

I do !

Mr. Speaker : Discontent.

an opportunit."

thero is to poinr, ont revision be cause for to do What I have endeavoured and last few minutes, Th'is report of the CPm­ from any other but my point within these 011 the last occasion, that in :-my salaries must necessarily complaint.
mittee is no different report of a like nature, is that many of these people who have not had, perhaps, to present their cases, and who feel that they should be permitted to de so, should have that accorded have been brought to the attention of Government ment, then I ask that Government should g'ive consideration matters which can well be remedied, bringing faction to those people.
At least the consideration of their case would give them the feeling that they are not merely hitting b1·ick to be presented 0£ consideration.

wall, but that which they desire a measure them.


If the matters wnicr: thereby a sense of satis­ their heads against a are new to Govern­ opportunity is receiving to those appeal That is the particular which I do make - that not only should consideration ;;everal the several categories, but that consideration early as is possible groups, to see whether something be given as be given as can groups, to those particular 1G99 M otion-N m·.�es' 7TH MARCH, 1957 Salaries Revision 1700 LMr.
Luckhooj be clone to provide for them a measure of satisfaction their particular grievances .

in respect of One last word before I take my are the forgotten provide the foundation seat.

Those people who are at the bottom of the staffs of the several institutions upon which the whole institntion resis, whether it is the Mental Hospital, The Palms, the Public Hospital or the Best Sanatorium.

Those are the people who provide the broad base.


Those are the people who, I repeat, people of a. remembered profess.ion.

They feel that in the course of the salaries revision been accorded v.articular is a reasonable favours; of their case should achieve for them some of the benefits which they �;eek.

I commend to Government's further consideration these several matters which have been raised.

ation of their cases.

I thLnk their request one.


They do not ask they say that· the justice several of them have not consider within the Service.

In the Committee's report I sec frequent compadsilll!

'l made between what is being ofl'ered in British Guiana and what is being paid in the West Indian territories I have seen some instances slightly in ·which we are offering a little more than the salaries other colonies.

are some "sore thumbs sticking b-eing pai,l it� Nevertheless there out."

.

of sal!
.

of sal!

:>.ries under, and a number of eases There is one very major c:::tse J Colonial service.

a peculiar branch of I have to regard it concerning colonial as such, because we find it peculia1· to the British Empire.

I refer to the siclmurse-dispense1· service.


think it is a shame, a crying shame, that np to this moment in 1957, aml for as long as I have lived and before my time, dispensers have been giving a noble and a full and complete of service, yet they still remain ,: �mall group of completely people.

I think it is a disgrnce country and a sham_e on the entire Empire.

I feel that our dispen,,!

:'rs have not been given a fair deal; they have not been treated with dignity or respect.
and if they were a large band of people they would probably cau!

;c some political debate I said that these men W(;re the standbys of the doctors.

uproar.

In a previous They have been tramplccl, to the life dissatisfied notice l\'ir.

Jailal: there is bound.

at some early moment.


I know that in any salaries whethe1· for teachers, While I am in Ru1,1po1t of the Committee's report there are a few things which I think ought to be brought to Government's in an attempt to get some recon­ sideratio1Q Basically rev1s1on, lawyers or doctors, to be some dissatisfaction, one undertakes ·which involves must have regard to the ability the Government pay.

In that light I would like to l,wk at this whole matter.
A serious attempt has been made, a reaso:r.alJly good attempt, equate the salaries the Service and to put them on a level with other comparable any revision money it is essential that he of to if I may say so.

to of this branch of or undertaking branches but wher.

They were the men who held no but carried licentiates the same tools that doctors carried.
I heard a man much more experienced than I am tefer to them merely as nurses, but my opinion is that although that man may he an experienced medico and ndministrator, know the service to which these dispensers whole !iv.es.

To become a dispens.er a man has to undergo the same ing as a nurse must have.
He has to be trained in the wards and in have pledged their he does not really basic tr:ii.n­ - 1701 Mot,i1,n-Ni1rses' 7TH MARCH, 1957 Salaini,es Revision i 70j quali­ and he has to sit the disi1e11sary, qualifying examinations.

After fying he is sent to some place in the interior vvith new developments but some place where, through his skill and training, useful.

where .

he loses touch in medicine, he becomes mor0 Some of these men have acquired of people in British Gui­ not only skill bnt praise.
One hears thousands an1, say "I don't care to see a doctor as long as I can see Dis­ penser So-and-So.''

I can put my head on a block that there are in this country who rnn dispensers handle tropical with respect that are prevalent more skill and much more sucf!ess I kuow themselves.

than some doctors that to be true, though it might seem a scandal to come in a public place like this Council Chamber to make But that is a state·­ such a statement.
rnent of fact and the people of British Guiana know it to be true.

to those tropical locally, with muc:1 diseases, especially dis0a�.es I have given to my people".

p;o on - a speaker of my ca,libre - fo1· days enumerating- that these people have <lone.

the good OnG can That is not a matter of the thei1· servkes, to which they can aspire, moment.

I merely wish to draw this to the fact that attention Council's these men have given service and have ::;acrificed a lot and I fee!.
the entire country owes them this ;;mnll gratuity for what they have done in the past and -will do in the fotu�·e.

, if it is not Government's I reiterate intenti.on to continue let us culminate it now, let us not any more fool them that this is something that this is their life's work which they can look forward to and live comfortably I have heard that the hon.

the Chief Secretary given the assurance of the dispensers once more.
I am glad to have that assurance, mendations tions ah-eady handed in will be give1: 1·easonahle Our etfc;ts here are only meant to help in lhc-, second study of this case, and I feel that with what has already gone before Government will do the rig!

'Jt thing by these people.

made and the represenrn­ and I hope that the rel!om­ consideration.

that the matter within.

has will be revie,vecl Some people do not want to acclaill1 pay, but doctors.

it is quite correct.
it but nonetheless only poverty and the It is probably lnck of opportunity which have, not allowed them to become trained and But, be this as it certified may, they have not the quali.fication and cannot claim a doctor's in all fairness to them I feel that should think this thing Government out and think of their housing facilities man finds himself placed in the wilds of this country, areas with a wife and growing-kids ·without any opportunity education to himself - nothing he can look to and say "This is what I haYe benefited for the years of service and with no real benefit leaving a.side pay.
When a in mosquito infested fo1· thei:· Among the dispensers there are I both as dispellSL•.rs those who are doubly qualified.

They are qualified and as chemists and druggist5.

am told and I have no reason to doubt that Government has been.

for some time utilizing chemists and druggists and not paying these men at the rate of This £3 chemists and druggists.

to to them.

It i::: similar hardly fair the case of nurses who have qualified a,; midwives.

qualification.
qualification.

nurse-midwife They have a donble In the case of the at the present time • their skill 2.s 1703 Mot-ion-Nu?

"Ses' 7TH MARCH, 1957 Salaries Revision 1704 --����.

'5: -�- � By ward of the hospitals.

token I feel that Government LMr.

Jailal] she is paid extra when placed in the maternity simi,lar should see to it that such men should he given some fee when they are other than tne one used in capacities for which they were hired.
I cannot to let a man view it as fair practice until such time use his superior ski.ll arises whereby l!e as the opportunity is finally given the stipend for that quali;fication.

I feel that a man must be paid for whatever skill upon to use in his work.

If Govern­ ment does not do so at present, then efforts should be made at one(:; to make right what I term an unfai.r practice.

he is called they have to and so, I :feel, the Q'Ui vive all th2 time.
Like the doctors they have to keep reading all the time, because new drugs are coming into use, new methods in Stll'gery.

Great develop­ ment is taking place in medical science ke.ep on They have to do more studying in the case of the primary schooi teacher who, at the end of his First Class Certificate examination, his studies are endecl and has just to practise well he succeeds measure of effort he has put intu his work.

what he has studied.

depends on w11at kno,;i,·i, than How examin::,.tions.
There is another group that I would like to make mention of.

I have tried to look at it very realis­ tically.

I have been 0; teacher in the early days of my life.

I had to sit the teachers' I h::tvf;!

heard i;t said in the opening speech when this motion was being intro­ duced, that one cannot regard a 11lll"ile in the same light as you will ::.·egard a teacher.

I cannot view it that way.

I feel that a primary school teacher in te1·ms of ser\'ice llO more qualified than any nurse at our hospitals.
feel that a nurse has to serve the and sit same type of apprenticeship certain As a matter of fact, to be a primary school teacher one studies for a certain period and qualifies, not intend to go any further job, one just continues what one has studied.

of nursing a nurse has to continne studying all the time so as to practise the new things that come into the profession.

tvery new instrument and if one do<:)s than the The nurses have to 11:larn examinations.

qualifying to prai.
qualifying to prai.

:tise But in the case is I introduced.

that should be adopted in I feel that the basis on which peke.

has been built and it has not been If a man is employed tho whole structure i;; one of science, as to whether given serious thought these nurse.

; are worth the same price as the teachers.

I feel that they are worth at least an equivalent in England not It may be the practice to so regard them, but that is not a practi,ce this country.
he period to has a normal vacation which he can look forward, but that is not so in the case of our 11 u rse� at the hospitals.

It can be said that they have leave benefit to look forward to, but they cannot reason­ ably plan that they will be off this week or next week.

They have to fit in their vacation with the whims or of someone else.

That is far fancies from understandable; I fail to under­ myself.
stand the situation I am not a medical man, but in a concern with I have seen service many nurses and I have represented ;hem in their cause.

We have b\oct; D.ble in that other sphere to make it practical for the nurses to work on the same eight hour shift as the oth�r :♦• 1705 Motion-Nurses' 7TH MARCH, 19$7 Sala1·ies Rev-ision 1706 the plant to which I benefits we,·e the same - I know also that their employees in refer.
Also the nurses got the same which is price as the top mechanics our teachers a far better price than are getting.

vacation there was nothing that was di.ff<n·ent - as in the case of the man who l had peculiar Ray I may be wrong - in terms of the way the British Coicnial Possessions think about a hospital; policy and the quicker policy the more equitable for all.

it is :i wrong we change our it w.ill be and even Britain in any sKil!.
training herself I feel that a nurse is no less a working pernon than any working rnan, and if a working man is requirer!

te work 8 hourn a day, then a working to the woman should be subjected same thing.

I feel that there must -:ome a time when we will be forced to put people on 8-hour shifts, and ·/here is no use anyone saying that c.:mditions Is a hospital, of employees, institution such that if such a system is practise<i one hospital any othe,r.
in the U.S.A. and other places like Curacao, cannot be adopted in British it could be practised I know that it is employed from the point of view different from any other as a prison?

I feel and I see no reason ·why it in a hospital.

are different Guianr,.

in ir.

clothes - better'.'


After all, she is and ill-fitting and I feel somewna11; when size ';14" should to give them something from what we have seen to whom the patient looks we give our A policeman, cleavour Everyone cannot tit any form or shape of uniform, and I feel that a Hurse is someone for whom we should have a higher regard than that being c:hown at present.

;:omeone liJ.1 to all the time when he is ill and ill low spirits, :i,hamed [,bout the treatment I in this respect.
r1urses think, does very much better.

Our are spick and tidy, but volunteers om· nurses are often furnished with ill-shaped in some cases having to wear a size ''lG" colla1· he the proper size.

I feel that our nurses should be supplied cloth and permitted uniforms made themselves.

that W'Ould produce better results foan allowing of uniforms one can tell me that the girl., at.

for instance, do not look well J:l.H.S., althoug·h in their uniforms themselves.
after the making have said here would be borne out hy the nurses themselves, ashamed of the they are absolutely they have to wear.

I main­ uniforms tain that it would be better for to give the nurses the Government home" pay, money equtvalent rather than giving them uniforms under their present forms "benefits" of employment.

them to wear the kind they wear at present.

to have their I think they look What I or ''take because with the as No I have heard some encomimns conneeted to do likewise.
stocks out of our nurses I feel also, from what I h?.ve but I cannot say that My view showered on seamstresses with the P.H.G., I am willing is that we have made some "sights" or laughing through the ill-fitti,ng are given to wear - with over-sized hanging around their necks collars and things of that kind, - yet that is one of the things we say they are given as a benefit.

I should like to know why can't Government en-· .heard, that very few nurses who have E-erved at the P.H.G.
would say they with the food they get.

are satisfied The food may have been good and wholesome must he remembered are drawn from various like in a country where everyone accustomed dietary.

that our people types -·-not is to the same kind of The people in this Colony are in its raw stat'e, uniforms but it they "'T'' 49£.&!J .H _., .....

..,,.,...,...

� ,.........,.


1707 Motion-Niirses'7TH MARCH, 1957 Salaries Revis'ion 1708 [Mr. Jailal] Chinese, and they have of Portuguese, descendants Africans and others, various ways of prepal'ing their food, but no matter what is put before them they want to be completely .

This mass feeding of nurses sati,sfied is not being done well, and I think it should be discontinued.
The only way I would be satisfied with its continuation know that at least once a week the members of a small committee wou lcl be permitted � without announcing cular day they would do so --· in order to see the kind of food thC!

nurses are given to eat.

In that way the nurses might become satisfied.

to dine with the nm·ses at the P.H.G.

is if !


what parti­ It seems to me that the $20 or there­ becaus,:i the meals they should ha\·e abouts which a nur;;e "subscribes" for food each month does not aervc any useful purpose, because very many of them do not eat it.

I know that quite a few of the nurses complain of bad stomachs, they work through -their shift without enjoying had.
I do not think Governm1mt should complain about changing the present system because I know of a 1,000-bed hospital are not given food, but rather provi<le their own.

Under the sy�.tem prevailing nurses a�·e gi,ven food in place of money, but I do not agree with that.

in British Guiana tlie where the nurses Colonial peoples arc awakening, It is a wrong thing.

and I do not think we should be prepared to give these nurses food in place of salary.
I rather regret that when representa­ tions such as these are made oy Floor Members, "Ministe1�" charge of the particular have some opportunity the matters concerned, Bill who may ,to deal with absent them- or Members in The result or leave while selves from the s·itting the Bill is being debated.

is that one becomes a puppet when he gets up to speak here and often feels that he is speaking to an empty forum.
Nevertheless, to do my duty to my people; somc­ ti.mes I feel sorry that I ever had the opportunity to do so.

I will endeavour I want to make one last plea, the nurses - an That last plea i!".

and its advi:,ers and I .hope the record will finrl its way to those who have power to deal ·with these matters.

that Government should begin to give attention to this situation affecting little section of the unfortunate Service.
I hope an effort will be made to assist them today and that the problem will not be left for the dim v.nd distant future as that will be wrong tactics ii a nurse is made to act �s a Ward Si,ster she should receive benefit of the acti.ng appointment immediately.

I would prefer to see no chance given at all, than to see the person to whom it is given having to wait for a long time for the few she should get.

paltry dollars on our part.

I feel that the financial My hon.


colleague (Mr. Luckhoo) Even if a Health Visi�or to their as compared with that of and I feel much the same has stated the case for the Health Visitors, way as he does with respect position the nurses.

were to be given the same pay as a nurse she would have to provide her own uniform along with other Her post calls for a some­ necessities.

what higher qualification and, as Mr. Luckhoo has stated, she is some­ times required abToad for a period as long as 18 months.
I feel that all is not well in this particular thi,ng qualification is wrong.

I feel that the higher division, then some­ of a Health Visitor to undergo training 1709 Motion-Nnrses'7TH MARCH, 1!

)57 Salaries Revision 1710 mean should, in common parlance, "more money".

I ther-cfore very strongly Health Visitors light.

that the c:rne of the be reviewed in �his 1·er-01nn1end was be taken of Labom·.

The The hon.
The The hon.

Mr. Luckhoo also men­ at of the artisans of setting up prices :-11,d tioned the position and whi.le I do not wish the P.H.G., to express the same views, I th ink it is a matter which sh(rnlcl up with the Ministry question employees wage scales for skilled gone into some time ago and I feel the time has come - and it is inevit­ able - when these men shon!d their just reward.
The policy receive bc,ing complained that a man is given no consideratinn Jot· the appl'enticeship in order to develop his paiticular skill or tracie.

It should be rcmern-­ bered that �L good carpenter be "developed" years - about the same time a lawy,::1· A good carpenter might take,.

as such, ha,: to g·oocl pipe-fitter, serve an apprenti.ceship five years in order to become efficient.
cannot in three about seems to lw he has served or produced 0£ at least rn· a in struck, lunatic; he dare not hit "·ith a baton in hand, standing of service are Yery One can imagine him­ is a man who has to at1:Pndant becnmP a pa.rt of i"he organizalion and that he which he serves, wil.J;in ,vou!d not be able to serve well if his conditions unsatisfactory.
;;elf, in front of an infuriated the face of difficulty, know of cases where, as because I the in­ soon as the attendant mate ceased Leing mad and was in a He position dare not strike back, but if he do!

:s he mu!,;t make sure that there are no marks.

He is expected to use pcn;uasion; must be strong.

Those are qualities many of us would like to have, ,-.-hich yet we "·ould not want such Jobs.

\,\' c however labourers; <.

:ornmon messengel's oif th:111 lrnow more than the addresses som·e offices.
they are worse who need not of to giYe good evidence.

he must be ni,ce and he treat these men as I will not mention any of the high­ but I join my friend (Mr. in his plea for these t-ra<les­ er skills, Lnckhoo) rrtcn.

Vic must encourage them because the only hope of honest labour is the hope of reward.

It may be argued that workman at an instituti.on like the to small P.H.G.
might only be limited but he would have to become repai,rs, man before he could get a skilled if he is put the job and, probably, to the test could handle bigger things.

the duty of a skilled it would be found that he A messenger can be P'-lt int,> but an at­ I who have served immediately, any office tendant cannot be made in one week m· even a year.

ne has to serve yet he is regardco an :tpprenticcship, in the same light as a messenger.
know of attendants 20 years or more and lived and hoped for the day of a revision but today their f'.ase is just as bad as it was when I was a boy - nearly 25 years ago.

Their case is one which and I I feel can stand some review, should recommend that Govei·nment to do whatever it can -to endeavour a,;sist these men.

Within the Service there are employees on what they earn.

who cannot live of salaries, I should once more like to Mr. Speaker: The hon.

Member's myself with my colleague associate (the hon.
Mr. Luckhoo) in his plea (at the P.H.G.)

for the attendants and elsewhere.

I feel that an reference attendant which occurred the Legislature to what happened to an reminds me of an incident when a Committee the Mental visi.ted of i 711 Mot-ion-Ni1rses' 7TH MARCH, i957 Sala1·ies Eevision 1712 [Mr. Jailal] complaints in Berbice some years ago Hospital certain to investigate picture had been made.
During the inquiry the Medical Superintendent rose from his seat and we had great difficulty in preventing I remember the incident him from striking quite will.

that us.

was also introdnce<l.

before done; new scales were made and a new structure At the same time, when I compare the c•ver-all of the revision us wi.th what has gone before in 1espect of the teachers cannot help confessing of disappointment.
generally would have produced which were a bit higher--the rna:d­ m.um at any rate - than they did produce.

I thought that, , the Committee scales of salaries and others, to a measure speaking I for nature.
of praise May I begin hy humble tribute to make a few comments but I thi.nk I should take this Rev Mr. Bobb: We have spent a good deal of time on this report and I do not wish to prolong the debate unduly, opportunity of a general paying my to the Members of the Committee the very fine work they have done, more especially because I think they had to deal wi,th one of the most of workers in categories difficult respect of the revision What I shall say later on win explain that point.
I know that -they put in a lot of work and heard rel?resenta­ tions from several doubt that the finished reflects calibre and of the Committee considerable patience credit on the of the members product people.

There is no of salaries.

.

When I observed in the Sessional for promotion our attention.

My reason for coming to that is very simple.

I think this of workers in which Among the teachers Rnd there are many conclusion is one category there are the ]east promotional oppor­ tunities.
other categori,es opportunities .

But that is not the case with the group which An attend­ i<1 engaging ant starts as an attendant, anct there he stops.

A nurse can go on to a Ward Sister or a Health Visitor, 'but beyond a Ward Sister and Health Visitor ·we have just a very small number of persons who will ever get any further.

When I began to look at it from that angle whether the maximum salaries ered to those different ,,:orkers were really with the cost of living?
commensurate I asked myself types of off­ then as Secretary and honestly An attendant in what I regarded is expected to on $100 because Paper that the total increases recom­ mended was in the vicinity of , which multiplied by two $180,000 years is $360,000, I was a bit surprised that the revision only resulted a small figure.
I said to myself that the Financial happy man to have to provide an additi(:mal sum of that order only, because what was said prior to the· of those salaries revision expect a much larger sum would have to implement to be provided the revision.

by the I was i,nfluenced of the teachers' nature of the revision salaries, that in their case two things were being live decently per month.

I am puzzled, what is $100 per month in these days?
We all know how, when we were much younger, forward to being able to earn $100 per month, but what is that worth in these days?

The average carpenter­ and I am thinking seasoned between 19 and 21 years of age, several with two or three years' experience earn between $25 and $30 per week.
not so much of the but young men but one must remember of whom I know by name -­ how we looked carpenter Itel me to should be a "" 1713 Motio'Ylr-Nur,s-es' 7TH MARCH, 1957 Salaries Revision 1714 Admitted that they may be casual, bt1t there are several are well measure of pay· their skill can com­ mand.

of them who placed, because of the can look category in that particular forward to very few promotional opportunities, for many years at what I consider comparatively low rate of remun.era tion.
and will have to stay a ­ It is in that respect that I am expected an increase convenient and the wa1·d that the Committee's ies in that particular field, to finish I wonder if it is serio11sly that those people who no further which they enjoy, has been made to :;om'� of the I do not shai·e all his and to dietetics, dietician" to his in the future.

I know disappoi11ted report does not reflect of salary of a much higher level.

Take the case of the untrained nurses, as they are called, orderlies.
contended have practically opportunit could be reasonably up with $100 per month, male and female, and be expected to do satis­ factory work?

It i.s true that there are other benefits and reference of them, but I think there is some.

justification for what the hon.

Mem­ LcH', Mr.

Jail al, said in respect food supplied.


c:omment ,vith respect I will have to add '· <[ualifications that there are complaints the food, and that part of the benefits they enjoy is provided cause of the very nature of their ,vork.

I do not think I would change my position to the view that the nurses should be dcpl'ivecl of being of opportunities fed on the spot.

Whilst it is true that there arc some places whe,·e nurses are permitted selves, where the reverse is the po;;ition.
There is something viding for them in that way, having 1:cgard to I ive.

Whilst I do appreciate irn.

:reased level of salaries mended by the Committee, think they have gone far enoug·h, the light of the fact that those people life they haYe the recom­ I do 1101: in there are many other places and subscribe to the abnormal to, be said for pro­ to feed them­ against be­ I would like to refer to one other I the dispensers.
to the opin­ I feel that the di�­ group of workers, am very happy that the recommenda-• tions made by Finance Committee h?.ve not been turned down, and that some review is going to be made, which l trust will be favourable ions expressed.

pensers are not only in the category of people who c:.1.nnot look forward to promotion, important field.

There are quite a number of them who are in close contact with doctors and therefore rely in own resources.

dispenser ception.
dispenser ception.

but that they are doing an piece of work in the health ihe same measure upon their But the case of the at Atkim;on do not have to Field is an ex­ I have repeatedly made the error Atkinson Field, so is spoken of as "the I asked the reason why and do not is only I think of asking people there when did the ctoctor go there, and when I get that no doc­ their reply I recollected tor goes there.

For a long time no doctor has gone to that the dispenser doctor".
1 was told by people that they see a doctor.

Atkinson Field 25 miles from Georgetown.

the responsibilities pensers have to carry in that respect merit very sympathetic Jtot only because of the fact of the respof1sibility carries ::;uch responsibility the fact that, like everybody has tt, live.

with it, and else, he but the status whl::h which such dis­ I am not Raying these t.hingr in disparagement work I fully appreciate of the Com.mittee'i; their diffi- consideration, sq - 94D?.

!

-.
!

-.

--" 4W i e'lQi 1715 ivlotii:m-Nu1·ses7TH MARCH, 1957 Sa/a1·-ies Revision 1716 to be designated as in a way principles, being called ward order­ I have always looked upon that [Rev.

Mr. Bobb] culty, but I read their report over and over again, and I have been look­ for that aspect which in,;r particularly I think was the aspect to dominate the whole report.

I am sure regard has been paid to it.


It is not one of the underlying in that respect, we can hardly hope to see an increased here and there u11!esi:; lever of salaries the whole thing is put out of ge.:.r.

I would have very much liked to sl'e a much higher maximum and incentives by that means for a group provided of workers, who, as I said before, are ,vhere to be in a position not fortunate they can look forward io promotion.
not support the idea of their successors lies, it is a concession that the present holders of those posts will continue nurses.

amount of with a certain institution I do not regard it ai-a sympathy.

I am one of those who :we hospital.

very pleased that the name has been changed from that "Alms House," but I am not by any with the name "The means flattered l'alms" that as it may, it is a better name than "Alms House".

and I think as the report stands which it now bears.
Bi.t he The male and female nurses work­ objectionable nar,1e on several occasions I would like to refer io paragraph re­ Charge Nur:;c which was will pay attention is marlP.

to al­ J0.6 on page 14 of the Committee's port in which reference to attach a personal the proposal lowance of $240 per annum to the lJOSt of Untrained abolished in 1!

)55 on the rctiremrni of the holder.


I trust that the l\d­ to ministration because no ref­ tl,at recommendation, erence is made to it either in the Ses­ sional Paper or the Finance Commit­ tee's report, that it is going to be implemented.
The principle Charge Nurse is entitled f.molumenti- rcti.red should be given that been abolished sum of money, and since there is going to be a change of designation to assume that by means of that nurse who will be­ change the trained ward sister will enjoy comparable emoluments.
that an acting Untrained but I am going to assume holder of the post which has the view that tit(: 8Upporb, to the same we are J service; must to and, unless my ing there are, to my way of thinking, out duties which are more can-.ving lhan the duties of nurses.

They are ::;ocial welfare officers is quite wrong, the choice obsen•Htion of workern for that institution governed by their ability he largely gi\'e the social touch as well as ueces­ HHy care to the sick and i nfirmecl.
have been through the wards of that anrl institution about see­ have been more concerned to the ing how they rendered ,1ged people there than actua1ly look­ ing for the things nurses are expclcted to do.

I say that in order to say ihis.

l\fore and more gratitude should be given to people working in the social weifare al instrnction to become more equipped.

being trained care of the sick, aged and infirmed Yital indeed for all kinds of reasons which hon.
Members do not expect me to go into now that the choice of the people to serve them should be a matter of great care, and the st�.tus they carry and the salary they get be related somewhat tu the shoJald essential They are for the job.

I think :he so It is a fact that addition· is given to these nurses they render.

service field.
service field.

Passing from that I would refer to the happy prospect nurses at The Palms being still designated of the untrniued as nurses, and while I do I • � �--�� .. ..... 171 7 M otion,--Nurses'7TH MARCH, 1957 Salaries Revision 1718 armv of is not which I giving so repelling should be given diminishing and other working on the job and the is right.

They are in Tobago where I have that they have and aged them to provide them with I think in the long nm they earn to make their worthwhile.
I know that tlrn will in no uncertain terms their minds with regard to to the posts and I feel that we should of those has not come, in the mind of the Administration, it will come soon ·when our artisans working in them institutions e:xpress the emoluments conditions they occupy, strive to relate the salaries in the artisan class to the salaries that are being paid outside the service.

It is true that in our country we have not a wonderful As a matter of fact it is, f.rtisans.
perhaps, to our discredit that the number of people in the skilled cl::tss is con-espondingly in terms of the growing population.

There ,vere days when the sugar estates turned out artisans in great numbers, but so many of those sugar estates are now closed clo•,vn, a11Cl so a source of supply is stoppe<l.

We want to encourage ctherwi::;c strucwre is not going to be very suc.,ng.
How a re ,ve going to attract people in the technical t'ven at that level we may do :;ome­ thmg for those who are there by 1n.eans of offering r.ble to the posts they occupy.

I am glad to see in the si3ter Colony of Trinidad :;,nd Tobago, especially worked and seen conditions will not iike to recall, decided that the infirmed are to be taken and given more care, which they deserve in their declining years.
I am obliged to say that these people who are working at The Palms should be looked at in a different way.

There is need for a different approach.

More consideration to the quality of the people em­ pioyed, the manner of choice, of instructions salaries services Public Hospital, Georgetown, going to take nurses from T11e Palm3 to qualify employment.

the principle carrying out an important and ought to be encouraged as efficiently lo ihc conclusion I came to actu::i \ly that these people should 11ot !
)e despised.

ful job, and it takes a good heart to be able to undertake the kind of attention of these people - male and female - are required to shoulder in that institution.

that when the Administration over these figures all these thin.!
!S are going to be taken into considera­ tion and the utmost done in orclcr to give to these workers a real ,;ense of satisfaction personal appreciation of the manner in which these workers have sought k bring these ideas to the attention of Members oI this honourable Coun~ c-il-by constitutional meth­ octs-and that is one evidence or the frame of their minds, evidem:e which has given me a great deal of i;atisraction.
of all these things and in our final analysis not be found wanting in doing ou1· duty by them.

they are goi11.g to be frustrated.

there is some­ thing that makes one feel that 0116 is achieving.

comparably of achievement peaceful, J believe l\'lr.

Sugrim Singh : I wish to When one is remindec� They are doing a wonclP.1· of the work done a seno!

'\ fu11c:ti0n to do it like to express here my I trust we will take note om· technical remuneration suit­ I do not believe a;; possible.
I hope goes that many :r. wou !d This ll'ads these people education I believe is built up.

­ .

My last 1roint, regard to the general artisan and that is with situation of the class.

I feel that if the time myself with the appropriate 2ssociate remarks and points made by my colleagues who have spoken be­ fo�e with respect to this Report.

field?

I think 1719 Motion-Nurses'7TH MARCH, 1957 Salaries Revision 1720 for and to try as far as poss­ in a con­ way.
I look upon it as a to this Council to show its of the manner in which [Mr. Sugrim Singh] The hon.

Member, Rev.

Mr. Bobb, who made as his last point has just spoken, that these workers have taken their case to the proper quarters stitutional challenge api;ireciation they have placed their grievances consideration ible, possibly with some sacrifice, see that their claims, requests, refer, tne hardships ed are rectified I am pleased to learn satisfaction.

that the hon.
that the hon.

the Chief Secretary early in this debate in very promising terms said that consideration will be given to these paragraphs.

Report of Finance Committee.

join in praising the work they have put in.

I refer to the I must.

for this Committee they have suffer­ to their entire the anomalies to which they to their legitimate have put forward a very con­ case to Government to meet their just demands.

My hon.
My hon.

friends vincing of this unfortunate We trust that this unanimous voice on their behalf will not go like water on a ,:luck's we will be able to see tangible tc, the mutual satisfaction back, but in the future on behalf group of worker».

results of everyone.

Right now within these institu­ occur­ in the Press and by the public of Members of this Cc,un­ and irregular to happen.
At The tions, in spite of all that has been ex­ pressea utterances cil, oppressive rences continue Palms-it is not the policy of this Council to refer to individual cases­ I have been reliably the porters, who are bearing the brunt of ::,JI the hard work and are doing all the donkey and spade work in that in - stituticn, of appointment vacancy occurs in that institution.

are not given the incentive as gateman when su:::h • informed.

of the Mr. Speake1·: That has heen men­ tioned already.
enterprise-and They give efficient today, there are private setting up hos­ l want to say that today our young women and even our young men are turning away from the nursing pro­ fession, and it is not without reason.

In this country medical practitioners pitals and nursing homes - a Yery laudable Government will have to step up and be in con­ sonam:e with the requirements times.

These private enterprises shmd out prominently._ scale an attractive service of salaries In :for their employees.
short, we can no longer have new wine in old bottles.

ment there has been an upward revi­ and I am indeed very s1ori of salaries glad that some effort is being made in this direction.
we have no undertaking ernment, sense of Government, claims of these people who have been all along will be gone into inart1cufate will be able to see l1ow far Government from Gov­ on the good and I trnst, though the legitimate but our reliance In every depart• and provide .. will Mr. Sugrim Singh: I am sony I was n0t here when it was mentioned 1 do hope that such occurrences not be allowed to continue.
ple must be told and made to under­ stand that they are working for some­ thing to come, that there is some por:;s­ i bility for promoti.on.

have put forward the case convincingly of mine.

I and it needs no repe.tition can say no more, but that I trust GoY­ ernment will deal with this matter expeditiously gible results and there will be tan­ in the near future.

My colleagnes l\fr.

Lee: I must apologize for sendir,g ask­ Your Honour a telegram ing for leave.
I thought it best to at­ tend :md the some years ago I made representation reason for that, Sir, is The :peo­ " 1721 M ot-ion-Nur.�es' 7TH MARCH, 1957 Salaries Revision 1722 for instance, but I feel that there of employment know whether such an atmosphere still prevails, on should be security the part of these subordinate employ· ees.
Long ago, the manager of a. Su­ gar Estate, did not know or did not care what the workers of the estate did, but it was found that often such a policy of unconcern the Similarly, caused discontent.

heads of Government do Departments not know what the subordinate suffer, or how their grievances but if some human feel­ be remedied, ing could be extended to them it would be a good thing.
should offic,�rs laundP.r­ that 1 to that they have buil.t a new l;nm­ of the sev­ I think some of the can testify their recommendations of State for considcrn­ on belmlf of the wardmaids, esses, gatemen and porters eral institutions.

older -;vardm�.ids _forwarded the Secretary tion.

Since that was done, I hav.a no­ J:iced dry at the Public Hospital, George­ town, but that is not the only insti­ tution.
The same facilities given to should also be given to that hospital t.be other hospitals ment has full control.

ment to consider facilities pital, ties should not be given to the Public Hospitals Suddie, Barti,ca be aRk that immediate consideratio:1 given to making them all modern and up-to-date.

of which Govern­ I ask Govern­ that.

Not because are asked for the Public Hos­ at Ne-w Amsterdam, that the same faeili­ and Mabaruma.
I Georgefown Berbfre, one state­ against the seam­ of the uniforms I accept the view, however, the view that no form should result in in­ for these em­ to the worn at The to according are not made by the I should like to correct ment made here, and it relates question.

Palms.

These uniforms, my info::·mation, seamstresses; any unfavour­ therefore able comment made about the uniforms should not reflect stresses.
that no porter or wardmaid (at The Palms) should be made to scrub the floor, but that this should be done by other human means.

Government has accepted of employment creased emoluments ployees.

So far as my memory serves me, there were only two occasions which complaints 1'alms about the treatment r,nd on both occasions made inquiries ter.

If we go into the question salaries be trained fore they could qualify tors, then I think such qualification should be considere<l highe1· salaries.
the need for higher qualification ally means a demand for higher salaries.

the mat­ of and find that nurses have to time be­ for a considerable on were brought at Th..:: of nurses, Government In every profession, as Health Visi­ and remedied in the light of usu­ I do not know what the hon.

the Chief Secretary will do1 but I sin-.

Unless we have a Civil Service u ding many things they are we will never of full co­ from its employees.
Many of them, so far as I know, and fell ill because of the congestion the kind of work they were asked to do.

Tbat is why they follow the poli­ tical party that promises them ever:v­ thing-incl not able to fulfil.

contented be able to get the benefit operation Government should compare conditlo11.s in this Colony with similar ins·Litu­ and other places tions in Trinidad taking the question and of salaries other things into account.
I must made (by Mr. the suggestion reiterate J"ailal) sl1ou Id be appointed to hear the views of the various per­ sons affected in this matter so as to enable Government to remedy them.

to the effect that a Committee by Government I think I am in a position to say that at of one time many of the employees were afraid to join these institutions 8. particu because if it be­ came known they might have 1:lcen I do not called uµ and dismissed.
Jar lJnion, 1723 Motion-Nitrses'7TH MARCH, 1957 Salm·ies Revision 1 '724 '11) together the members to group certain new but, so by Finance I think if he returns rMr.

Lee] cerely hope that the recommenda­ tions made with regard to these nurses will be accepted Committee.

to Finance Committee will welcome it and try to see what could be done.

I think it would be difficult grades of employees far ai, I know, Government's policy is that if anyone is deserving eration to his (or her) salary.
Therefore, think allowances could be given to some of these people to let them see has considered their that Government case m refation th?-y to the position occupy.

Owing to the fact that cer­ tain employees are heads of their res­ and have to work in pective outlying districts, they have to keep two homes as it were, one near the place where they have to perform their duties and the other where their children of consid­ could be added have to be educated.
an allowance families I in the Rnpununi dis­ to the dispenser trict, lmt to those in other out-lying areas.

It should be remembered that British I sincerely hope that veloped in such a manner as to make us proud of it.
and Guiana is a big country, it could be de­ If it is the intention of Govern­ � ,I attached I know that it would be and experienced to their institu­ and exper­ for the Chief Secretary existing ment t0 have qualified seamstresses tions, that qualification ience would not have to be considered 111 the case of persons who have just qualified.
very difficult to adjust all the anomalies but, so far as I know, the people con­ cerned were not asked to state their Fmther, grievances some of them had to be very careful t about airing .

because heir grievances they were afraid of reports and so on.

I should like Government to un­ that the people are afraid of derstand certain things and cannot say all they would like to say.
That is why they in certain are putting confidence them many people who are promising things which they are unable to ful­ fil.

very definitely.

"I ...

It is also known that some where they are stationed, cannot keep their of the dispensers families and in such circumstances are given a station allowance.

know from my own experience that river in the Essequibo the dispenser has to travel extensively, but the allowance being given to him is not to feed him properly.
sufficient they I g a propei·ly There are other cases, and I think dispenser of appointin to serve in the was being consid­ Your Honour will remember that when the question qualified Rupununi district ered some time ago, Sir Gordon Leth­ em pointed would.

have to trwel in all sorts of weather to perform his duties and be given some con­ ,.hould therefore I suggest that sideration.

such con­ snould be given not only :,iderat.ion ou.t that a man going there La•stly, I should like to refer to of nursing.
people.

If girls needs improvement the girls who are taking this honour­ able profession I think if t.iieir situation we are to make the profession more to certain attractive feel that they should join the hon­ ourable profession, there should be some means of assisting of a case where a certain Guianer.e girl desired to become a nurse but could not obtain employment hospital.

went to England, admitted hospital formation successfully at a branch of a prominent in London.
The lates4; in­ She left the Colony and and there sh?.

was as a nurse.

them.

I know at a loc:!l is that she is que\lifying � .. i 725 M otio n-Nu,r�·e s' 7TH MARCH, i957 Sal(l/}•ies Revision 1726 • .. ,.

�· .. • Mr. Speaker: In England it is for almost anyb0dy to qualify possible as a nurse, but the question ion.

living accommodat is to find Mrs. Dey: It was not my inten­ effort to solve (of which I was a as indeed I ought.
has what the Committes tion to speak, for the simple reason that it might be thought I am trying t,_i justify stated in its report, The Committee member) sat on 31 occasions, anrl.

I know that each and every one of us best possible made the the problems that came before us, ac­ cording to the dictate of our con­ There seem to be one misun­ sciences.
which I should like to derstanding refer to, and it is that representatives were not given an opportunity thei 1· case on behalf of the persons they repr-esented.

That is not the case, and I would like my hon.

col­ leagues tain representatives times in order to be able to consicler then-representations appear::;, however, some erroneous memorandum was sent in, it was fel:t that whatever was asked for should have been given by the Com­ mittee.
that there has been idea that because a to know that we sent back cer­ as often as four carefully.

to state It On the last day of the sitting, of the report, we and never left until 2.45 p.m., were told that that was the before the signing of the report, arrived in that room at 9.30 in the morr..ing one reason being that the represen­ tatives last day for the signing and that if they wanted to go back and make certain late.

il1oreso, were not in favour of what was re­ commended, them tc, sign the report.
They were given every opportunity at that meet­ ing either to sign 01· to state why they ,vould not sign the report.

They were also given oppo1,tunity to consult those no one was compelling changes it was not t.oo if those representatives and I am most sur­ persons affected, prisect to hear now that complaints are being made that the people affect­ ed have not been properly I am «m::i.zed to hear that statement made by some of my hon.
colleagues who have so ably stated cases on be­ half of these 0mployees-for consideration lnave no quanel with any of them.

from Government-but consulted.

further people have not It was impossible f01· all the to agree on every­ that we persons affected thing, but I am satisfied took all the facts into account.
These deserving had any consideration ment for an exceptionally has been at­ now that something � tempted I hope my fellow Members will appreciate did we fai.l to embrace any opportun­ ity tp assist them.

by Govern­ long time; the fact that at no time My hon.

Friend (Mr. Jailal) has ' that I am to the question to say something.

of H o n. and unifo1·ms.


me, but as an will pardon in this Cb.am­ I could not sit made reference seamstresses JYiembers ex-matron ber and hear these remarks without attempting I should like lo teli this hon.

Council a woman and that when I was young a uniform.
I do I always respected not know if it is because I am Vic­ torian born and Edwardian trained, but 1 remember looking on at cere­ monial parades and wondering at the deportment, Sir, of members of your sex in their ceremonial what is more, I sometimes imagined garments.

th<!t they wore foundation My hon.

Friend has complained that the seamstresses at the two insti­ tutions This state­ fore making their uniforms.

ment is far from being true.


1'hese ladies must realize were not meant to be worn as they would '·beach the dignity attached they must appreciate to the wearing do not measure the nurses be­ that uniforms outfits"; and attire; ' 1127 Motion,-Nurses' 7TH .MARCH, 1957 Sala1·ies Revision 1728 .,.,.,.

�'.

'.r'" [Mrs. Dey] of a uniform and all the deportment it carries would be no need for the caustic and comments in some cases justifiable made by the hon.

Mr. Jailal.
Mr. Jailal.

along with it, and then there As regards dispensers with ,wer 28 years of service being allowed to retire at their maximum, the hon.

the to look has promised Chief Secretary into that part of the recommendation.

Knowing that he would keep his prom­ ise, Sir, I am proud to support port.

the re­ some irrel�vant; re­ on the floor--some their opinions levant to the motion, some of the facts produced ac­ In so far some inaccurate.
curate, as new points have been produeecl which were not examined in Ji'in­ ance Committee, ance that they will be considered by Government.

that they should be conside1·ed at with the Hansanl r.eport of the leisure rather than that I should give debate, an off-the-cuff But I can give an assurance points will be considered.

reply at this moment.

I think it is better I give the assur­ that those I know that the hon.
the Chief Secre­ undertakings tary gave us several Finance Committtee, therefore not go over those again, because those undertakings will no doubt make public this afternoon, E-ure they will be carried in I shr.li he and I am qnite out.

I do not think it is necessary for me to say any more at this stage, ex­ cept to move formally as amended, be adopted.

that the motion, Motion put, and agreed to.


I regret that we were unable to re­ DOMICILE IN MATRIMONIAL CAUSES commend higher maximum salaries, as the hon.

Member, Mr. Bobb, has and I am sure he will ap­ suggesttid, ·what that would have meant prdciate and cents to the in terms of dollars Colony as a whole.

We were not out to do any harm to any particular branch of the Medic2.l do our very best.
Service, but to Mr. Luckhoo: I beg to move the first of the two motions standing in my name on the Order Paper.

It reads: "Be it resolved: That this Council re­ to Government recommends spectfully that legislation Matrimonial 18, as to additional ceedings be enacted Causes Act, by a wife."

similar 1950, Section in pro­ jurisdiction to the The Chief Secretctry: I think no one can say that this Council has failed to give this important matt0r its full share of time and attenti on.
of the The motion for the adoption report of the D'Andrade was referred where the report was examined in by para­ great detail, graph, over a period of two days, I think, and the report of Financi� mittee was submitted and is now incorporated for adoption.

Committee to Finance Committee to this Council in the motion paragraph Com­ I am happy to feel that we, "floor" State.
In this particnlar can, in addition which should be enacted as to the type of in to taking also perhaps Members, political, part in matters give some indication legislation a progressive motion, may appreciate it is necessary background t.he present jurisdiction a petition the domicile Colony, cile of her husband.

in order that hon.

Mem};ers I thi11k what is sought, of the to give a little as to what the law is at time.
In this Colony of the Court to entertain for divorce depends upon in the the domi­ of the petitioner and a wife acquires Cases of hardship the Nevertheless, have found it necessary some hon.

Members to express i.

729 Motion-Nurse��-7TH MARCH, 1957 Saiarie,s Revision 1730 have arisen from time to time, as Your Honour is only too well aware, where one has not been able to establish domicile though there is great sympathy Court, the petition jected.
the of the petitioner, by the has had to be re­ and al­ What is being sought by the of the mar­ motion is this: A British 'Guiana girl married to an American or some­ one outside the Colony takes the of her husband when they domicile go abroad.

If, unfortunately, she is she would faced with the fact that like to have a dissolution riage and the· husband is not here, she cannot rely on any of those other grounds because she is faced with the of domicile.
difficulty the Matrimonial England says that a husband is not domiciled England the Court shall have juris­ proceedings diction w.ife, and gives two instances which it can be done.
Section 18 of Causes Act, 1950, in to entertain They are: by a in in that notwithstanding " (a) In tlle case of any proceedings for of by of death and dissolution under this Act other th,rn proceedings presumption if the wife ha,; ueeu deserted ma1Tinge, or the husband has been her hn,;baml, from the United Kingdom under deported any law for the time being in force of aliens, and to the deportation relating the husband was immediately before the domiciled or deportation desertion England; in in England of marriage, " ( b) In the case of proceeding s for if the wife aml has beeu onlin­ there for a period of three cli Yorce or n nllity i,; resident arily resident years immediately preceding mencement husband is not domiciled part of the United Kingdom or in the Channel of the proceecling,s, and the in any ot!Jer or the Isle of Man. "
Islands the com­ All that is sought in this motion modern should put itself is that Government in line with the progressive in England, to give the legislation women folk of this country who may be faced with the particular mis­ of going to an opportunity fortune, the Court for divorce the motion.

and having their petitions entertained.

I beg to move Mr. Lee: I beg to second the the motion.

These things when viewed ob-· When the bonds of ma­ but becau!
:;e in our local formula perhaps do not carry the jectively, weight and impact as they do on the because to the concerned, individual it means life; it means individual C:verything.

trimony no longer exists, of some weakness one is precluded opportunity, �mew, such a position medied.

That is the difficulty with have been which women especially faced.

In this Colony the grounds for divorce tion, cruelty, rape, sodomy or bestiality by the husband since marriage.
from being given the llfe perhaps of starting deser­ unsound mind, are adultery, incurable committed malicious should be re­ I have discussed this matter with the motion sine/:' who but it so far but not far enough.

which is before the Council the hon.

the Attorney General showed me his notes on the subject after considering notice was given of it, and I think he on behalf of the Govern­ is prepared, ment, to support the particular recom­ mendation today.
An attempt was made in 1951 to amend the law so as to bring it into line with the English enactment, has proceeded is that in 1951 our law What happened to enable the Court to was amen<led for divorce pre­ a petition entertain sented by a wife on the ground of desertion malicious ly before her marriage she was in the Colony, domiciled categories ery, for instance, garded as a more serious mere desertion, consideration, grounds for divorce.
issue than was not taken into nor were the other where immediate­ which is often re­ but the other were not affected.

Adult­ .

'.. � j.

·--Z.!14Sf .... r• - 17-::Nu,se:: Sa:ari,,' R:v:�an 7TH MARCH, i957 Govt.

Liabilities 1732 lVIr.

Luckhoo: I think that in the case of Matthews vs. Ma.tthews Ohief Justice on that poi.nt.
Crean made a pronouncement 'l'he Attorney with me on the matter, I agreement General (Mr. G. : Possibly as a M.. Farnum, acting) result of my good friend having had a discussion with his am in complete statement of the law relating· to in this Colony, and with his d.ivorce 18 of the statement of what section English Act of 1950 provides.

It iS a fact that this motion seeks to do no ·more than to bring the Laws of this Colony which relate to divorce more into line with the law of England.
In Government does the circumstances not oppose the motion.

The Attorney of correction, General: it was Mr. Justice To a point Verity.

Motion put and carried.


GOVERNMENT'S IN TORT LIABILITIES Mr. Luckhoo: I beg to move the second motion which reads: "Be it resolved: That this Council re­ recommends that Government to provide that the Gov­ spectfully enacts legislation ernment shall be subject to all those lia­ in tort in respect of which; if it bilities were a private person of full age And capacity, by its servants or agents as is provided for under the provisions Proceedings it would be liable if comn:itted of the Crown Act, 1947."
I feel that a very signai and pro­ it.

I trust step would be taken if this also accepts by the Council and gressive motion is accepted if Government Your Honour wi.11 forgive to go somewhat into the history in England, position it i1' appropriate what was the position ·what is the position a young country, improve the pattern ards, rights and obligations.
now when we, as aspire and wish to that one should know in England and me if I were of the of our legal stand­ because I think Under the Crown Proceedings Act Crown relates to -and tne Word "Crown" is very im­ portant because it has two distinct connotations-the the King as the person and the Gov­ and it is interestng to ob­ ernment.

serve how "the Crown" became the name both for the King and the Gov­ ernment.
This came about from the old days of the Norman Kings when the King was a person who held his own courts, and as such it was the King's com,ts, and the Crown thus became a symbol not only the King but the courts which he controlled.

Mr. Sugrim Singh: I must con­ coming to and some ex­ in England at time.

The world is getting SchP.mes, We the hon.


Member for bring­ motion and also g the pro­ gratulate ing this much desired Government for acceptin posal to bring our divorce law into line with what obtains the present smaller today.

We have foreigners, some of them Europeans, our defences, fortify perts for our Development and even officers of Governm�nt.

have a beautiful tiful climate, we have beautiful married, arises; the occasion laws in order.

This law became ne­ cessa:ry war.


American soldiers treked Mother Country and mixed freely.

The result was a very substantial !-:st and this desirable divorce tion was passed.

We are living in a changing world, in changing times, and we must change our laws accord­ ingly.

in England as a result of the to the country and a beau­ and in that same trend and we should not wait 1mtil we must put our girls.
'l'hey get legisla­ Mr. Speaker: I would suggest that in amending the law the \>,·ord be deleted "malicious" ''desertion" .

before the word 'l'he Attorney General: Up to now I have been practitioners point.
unable to persuade to agree with me on that ..J 17.33 Motion-Governm,ent 7TH MARCH, 1957 Liabilities ,in Tort 1734 knows, the Secretaries As Your Honour of State in those days were not as they are now, they were merely confiden­ ti.al secretaries The Ministers tion; they were just merely secretaries to His Majesty, years they have obtained independen to H. M. the King.

were in the same posi­ the Crown they irnd When that it was placed was the state of affairs.
T'n order to be able to provide a means for people to proceed to go by way of a ,petition.

petition was receiyed and before a Board of Commissioners, on the case it that J3oard re:,orting would be taken to the C'onrt of the King's Bench Division tion.

but after a ·period of for determina­ against a state of ce.

It is from that state that we have of the King and the by the King and b:v the association r1,dministration his courts having the same title-the Crown.
In 1561 there was the Duchy of Lancaster our is well aware.

It is one of those classic textbook cases tional Law.

The Judges said in that case: case, of which Your Hon­ on Constitu­ "The King has in him two bodies--the body natural and the body political .

.

. "

Tltat was the pronouncement in 1561 in that ria.ther famous case.

In the 18th and 19th ce':ltury the Ki·ng.


created reflected by the law in re9pect a legal possession of the two meanings, of in the law against as the offices of the King differentiation the Crown became -the Crown in the sense of the Gov­ ernment acquiring originally of the King as factual monarch.

By this you had the King and his Court.


It was the King's Court and y.ou could not S'Ue or proc,eed Consequently, were also referred to as 11is govern­ ment and the Crown and although separate same legal formality took effect, yon could not sue ,or proceed against That the Crown as the Government.

which being so, the state of affairs arose was one which presented great difficulties.
It can be stated this way - the Kh1g cannot be sued in tort as the King under the British can do 110 wrong; .therefore the Gov­ ernment c&nnot commit a wrong.

That from the E:bg's person the and Statute may re­ for the matter to be claims against the I can trace, were of land wrong­ The earliest State in Engla·nd claims for the recovery fully in foe hands of the Crown, and was by means the procedure followed of petition.

The Crown itself formu­ of Hight lated by Statute the PetitiO'n Act of 1806.
In all cases the fiat of the Cro'\\>u had to be obtained.

With­ not proceed out that a petition could to triai - the Commissioners fuse ('.

)ermission taken to trial.

This ,vent on to tile year 1S94 when trnder the Merchant Shipping held to be liable for wrongful of shipping.

a .body was made to acceot responsi­ bility and so .o·;,e Board of Trade.

This by the Ministry Act of 1919.


The rule was that the subject who was injured of the Crown had to notify that par­ ticular servant who did the act and proceed again st that servant.
against was confirmed Act the Board of Trade was It was the first time that of Transport by a servant could proceed the detention for ships' wrongful detention, in 1.he That was all well and good in those days, but whe·a the war came on they found out sen-ants .of foe Crown were ,:,erform course of which hardship sulted to private individuals country and there was except they pr.oceeded against dividuals concerned.

these several foe war years the Government a dictum.
l'hey presented ing functions and lose; re­ of the ·no redress the ili­ cases coming uo during an individual As the re::mlt of ad.opted 1735 Motion-Government 7TH MARCH, 1957 LiabiUties in Tod 1736 • in respect of three [Mr. Luckhoo] and said to the public "You s,ue him and let the matter go before the Oourt and should the Court Jecide he is wrong we would be responsible.'"

This dictum was used in legal practice <lur­ ing the w:1r years.
It is inter(�sting to frnd what the Yiews of eminent ;ju­ rists were as to this effio.rt on the part of the Crown not to relinquish by setting to be sued as an individual up this dictum.

in tort.

The Crown is to be liable as individual a private things - (1) torts committed by ser­ va�1ts or agents of the Crown; (3) breach of any Common Law duty by t.hf.
Crown as employer agents a11d (;1) breach of any Common Law ch1ty nrising or control possessio·:i: ofoer words, the Act renders the to the liabilities in ton Crown subject to which a private of full individual i:1ge and capacity especially is subject­ ed in respect and its servants of property.

the righ1 of tort.
the righ1 of tort.

or In from the ow1rnrship, The case of Adamis vs. Taylo1· was by the case-one of Supply in which Lord by another followed the Minister Justice McKinnon said: "I think the difficulty jus­ n Minister of Govern­ in gE>tting tice clone against ment is thoroughly English Constitution."

discreditable to the What the Lord Justice has said .1 say in respect of our position It is very disgrace­ specially in this country.
ful that one cannot proceed and get one's legal rights against ment for any act .or acts.

In the l•'ood Controller's said: case the Lord Chief the Govern­ Ju;:;dce It is trite law but nevertheless I is liable fo1 if wrong-doings of its .

One can see how out the responsibilit y of by the serva:nt in the coursE should state the principal the torts committed the torts were committed of his employment of foat will flow Government for the in so many respects and so servants many ways.

Breach of Common Lav.


duties for example - liabilities to in­ vitees or licensees liabilit ous ;premises escape of noxiollS liability even conversion arising injured on danger­ y for nuisance things from property, out of negligence as a bailee.

or or "A� time the Government enter into commercial as ,the -sphere proceeds does in<>rPasingly spheres.

anrl inr1nstrin1 Government tives of the Crnwn grow larger :ind ln.rJ!;er.
llf widens the 1wero.2:n .. no1'ion " is 110-w going into busi­ Government ness and enlarging the field of its operation.

Why should it i1ave this immunity that 011e cannot proceed it in tort?

The L.C.J.

against it up when he said: summed "It will be wrong if the Crown Pro­ Bill, which has been in prepara­ ceedings tion so long a time is not introduced mediately" .

im­ These were not politicians bnt jurists in the House of Lord� eminent who made those remarks in variou� cases.
The result was the Crown I'ro­ Act of 1947 was passed in ceedings did this Act do?

The England.

W·iiat Act removed and abolished the absolute immunity of the Cr.own from liability All these things were embraced by enactment to one.

The fun­ Act.

There was the Crown Proceedings in that Act and it only one exception to the Post Office.
Why it is related to exempt the Post Off­ necessary ice from that particular will come readily damental privilege relinquished by the Crown under the Act is the right which it had formerly, .of institut 1mrnity matter of course.

against you could haYe only proceeded the Cr.own as a matter of grace.

You had to get your petition of right and the Crown w,ould put forward some­ and the Crown body as a mere dictum, would stand behbd that ,person.
ion against There was no doubt the right of im- it as a I want to point out that, al thou g-h in 1947 the Act was passed, certain for itself reserved the Crown rights and 1737 M otion-Govermnent7TH MARCH, 1957 Liabilities in Tort 1738 It too We find that the those rights are rather peculiar.

shows an innate sense of conservatism and a desire not to effect change;; but to hang on to a :few drastically of the old rights.
Crnwn reserved for itself cert�iin or defendant as plaintiff privi.leges to the Crown laches cannot be implied - one can see the wisdom in that, where one knows the tremendous haste · with which Government does without any act; interim injunction interrogatories served hy 11otification; leave of the Crown.

the Crown without other relids such There are certain against the Crown as no injunctions and immunity from execution .

The whole purpose of thi,s motion because legislation.
as a lawyer and I have is, we want to bring our law to plane of pro­ the highest possible I know within gressive my knowledge no doubt in Your Honour's infmite you can cite dozens of experience cases where people have given up thei,r right to compensation you could not proceed against the _Government of servants any one of the several can proceed against the Crown.

We would like to feel that Ch.ief Justice said as long ago as 1945 - "the difficulty justice is thoroughly English Constitution".
in respect respect of miles· for the unlawful acts or agents .of Government for we now remedi.es discreditable What they said of England holds good in from_.

England.

in getting wnat the Lord of this far out place thousands done against the Government to the to any individual it to the Courts of Justice rightly justi.ce and another.

and as such leaves to dispense lretween one individual and had hi.
;; car over a bridge to of Public Works in the he was told that the subject Mr. Lee: In seconding this motion, to two I would like to di-aw attention i.n r;upport of it.

A man incidents in his car on the while travelling public road crossed which was being repaired by a contractor Government -� damaged by one of the planks kicking up.

When he made representation& the Director matter, cou Id not recover damages fl·om the The other incident Government.

cerns the loss of an animal at Vergen­ .


oegen Settlement.

lost and the owner sued the Superin- who pleaded of the Settlement tendent by the that it was a loss committed Crown as the loss was due to the negli­ g-ence of the people employed Therefore, pasture.

recover damages from the Superin­ of the estate.

Those two cases tendent will indicate is necessary sought by the motion.
to this Councii that it to pass legislation as at the the man could not The animal was con­ The Attorney General: at this stage that I I think it is convenient should i�1tervene, shorten the debate.

as it may possibly Mr. Speaker: It is already five o'clock.

remarks we may conclude If hon.

Members shorten the debate.

their at the earliest by Government I feei that this motion should not but time.
It is time that we put only be accepted also implemented possible our house in order, and enacting lation of this kind is not only a credit but to the people to the country itself does not hold the as the Government right of protection, but likens itself described the Crown Proceed­ General: My .hon.

in moving· this TJ1e Attorney Friend (lVIr.

Luckhoo) n10ti,on, ings Act as a piece of ·progressive agree­ I am in complete legislation.

and.
and.

I ment wi-th him in that respect should like to say that Government with the motion agrees in princi,ple and also agrees that any such leg is-· lation is progressive legis­ and desirable.

1739 Mot-ion-Government 1TH lYIARCH, 1957 Liabilities 'in Tort 1740 as a result of such act, from taking proceedings and in an appropriate ment will agree to be bound by the result.
against the i.ndiviclual case Govern­ General) [The Attorney It may not be amiss, however, i.f at this stage I deal somewhat briefly with the legal rights of the indivi.du:11 in this Colony i;n so far as proceedings against Government are concerned.
My friend has, obviously, some considerable in some research historical of petition ignore the histori.cal origin of this procedure fact, to address th�s Council very briefly on the position time and indulg,:;d in going into the origin of proceedings by way of right.

I propose to origin - the - and, in as it is today.
devoted by way of pe'.°1t1011 As stated by my friend (Mr. of this acUons can be brought Luckhoo), against the Government Colony where those actions are of such a nature that they may be brought against the Crown in the United Ki,ngclorn of right.

In other words, with the fiat of the Governor an individual can bring proceedings Government i,n actions in which the individual damages for breach of contract, the recovery for land, 01· the recovery or land.
In such cases, there is no danger of the i.ndividual being de­ prived of his right of action, the Governor's any such proceedings the ambit of a petition United Kingdom.

against the such as those is clai,rning for of land, compensation fiat is given where of any chattel come within of right in the becau;;e Arising from the maxim t h a t '"The King can do no wr0ng," 110 action lies a g a i n s t Gov­ of a tort; that is, ernment in respect a wrongful act which has caused harm to an individual.
It does not, however, follow that in every such case the individual is deprived remerly.

against Government compensation Secondly, any person who claims to be injured It is a fact that any claim is examined, paid in a proper case.

there i.s nothing to preclude and of a that in this Colony is caused because we on the lines Act.

There I mention this because of what has been sa�d by my learned friend l.Mr.
Luckhoo), great hardship have not got legislation of the Crown Proceedings is also one feature which has not been dealt with.

It appears that this motion may involve certain implica­ tions which are not very apparent first blush, and I feel sure that this CounciJ, body, would not wish to make a firm recom­ mendation ernment should take certain action, unless the Council feels that it has examined the question thoroughly and that it is aware of _all the pos­ sible implications involved.
I feel sure that as a responsible Council cannot feel otherwise.

as a responsible to Government body thi,s that Gov­ at Now it does seem to me that when of actions resulting I can assure this before the appoint­ the motion, there are which ought to the possibility perhaps in of proceedings one considers certain implications be borne in mind before it is passed.

One should consider collusive a multiplicity the court as to necessitate ment of more Judges, Magistrates· End Law Officers.
Council that the Law Officers of the Colony are very fully occupied I should not like Members to mis·· understand suggesting plementation result in added expenditure that the idea of enacting pro­ gressive piece of legislation should be abandoned.

I am merely putting· for­ ward the view that this Council examine this proposition me however; I am not that because the im­ should carefully be- of this motion m:ght this admittedly as it is.
L - 1741 Motion-Government1TH MARCH, 1957 Liab il-ities in Tort l 7 42 fore recommending that a certain be pursued.

to Government course of action shoulrl The motion says- "That this Council mends that Government tion to provide .

.

. "

respectfully enacts legisla­ recom­ I action.

positive that this Coun­ and at the moment in in Mont­ au fait with of the matter befora ::my recommendation is made.
on the lines suggested It recommends am merely suggesting cil should b.c completely all aspects such definite Legislation the motion has been enacted serrat and Antigua, is under consideration in Trinidad.

is not without some significance when the question Trinidad was appointed and I to go into the whole matter, feel sure that that is the wisest pro­ cedure for this Council to adopt.

Ac­ cordingly, I beg to move by way of an amendment, be appointed and to make recommendations thereon to the Council.
that a Select Committee to examine the questinn a Committee It that ·was mooted in to time lapped up leg'.1i the appo,intment to examine this matter.

From my little motion, has suggested of a Select Committee important re­ search I find that the introduction of this legislation has done no ,harm in England, and I do not think it can clo any harm in this country.
We have from time principles and legal trends in Eng­ land and there is no reason why we should not adopt the principle of the Crown Proceedings came into operation 1st January, in 1947 when the Bill was passed, but it did not come into operation until 1948.

Act which, I think, in England on the 194-8.

I was in England us and General for informing like Montserrat I think such legislation is not.

only orogressive but very timely, as it ·would bring our legal system up to date.

I am grateful to the hon.


the Attorney that small islands Antigua have adopted this legislation.

My Federation ous and so strongly this Council, ferous in reminding bean nation is what we are striving for, and I am using their o,wn argn­ ment this afternoon, lation is good for Montserrat and An­ tigua- so numer­ represented have always been voci­ colleagues, that if this iegis­ us that a Carib­ .

in The Financial I beg Secretary: to second the amendment.
Mr. Sugrim Singh: I think this is one of the most historic mutions that has ever been presented to this Council, I have one regret-that Your Honour is not on this side of the Coun­ cil, but I hope we will not be denied the benefit of your wealth of ex­ perience on this very important I happened to have been in England in 1947, just about the time when the subject of the day in legal circles.
culmination turesque known principle wrong" was eventually that very historic It was the of a very long and pic­ "The King ca11 do no by of this motion was the talk when the well evolution absorbed Bill.

matter.

__ The 11011. the Attorney _9f the very weiihty General in view implications of this The Attorney General: I beg yo1.ir pardon.

I should have said Dominica and Montserrat.

Mr. Sugrim Singh: Thank you.

territory.

Guiana has been described British as a mainland Caribbean It i,; a subtle move.
My point is that if those f!mall islands, economy and small population, stepped this progres­ sive bit o'J.

legislation-, British alone, have every justification even on that ground out and accepted with their small I think we in Guiana, have in re- ,� .� 17 43 Motion-Government 1'l'H MARCH, 1957 Liabilities in Tort 17 44- [Mr. Sugrim Singh] questi.ng be placed in our Statute that this historic Book.
legislamon the Mover I think the Government, of this motion and every Member 0f this Council are all agreed on the one princi.ple that the Bill is a necessity.

The hon.

the Attorney General has pleaded for consideration of the matter by a Select Committee of this Council and has moved an amend­ ment to the effect.
I do not know, he referrec1 Sir, if the implications :J.re so voluminous and weighty thaL, he would be able to influence must confess that I would like to oee this legislation as soon as possible, feeling that this proposed Select may put this laudable Committee in cold storage indefinitely.

I do not believe that the hon.

the Attorney General that.

I think he means well.

I must give this motion my full support.

come into operation and cannot help intends Bill us.

I to Mr. Speaker: If hon.


Members are anxious that this matter be gone into, to appoint I am prepared of the Committee cannot do it without the amendment being carried and the hon.

Member withdraw his motion.

the personnel bnt I immediately, occasions he which implications that four times.

of public morality accept the amendment put forward.

I listened to the hon.

the Attorney General and on several stated about the are there and which must be c-on­ sidered.
He repeated Are our standards so low that we fear the possibili�y of collusive action?

IR .our public i.ntegrity done here what is done in England?

Set up our outlook and the people will live up to it and set it on a low level and they wili live down to it.

so low that we fear to have on as high a level to Let Government If Government wishes to accept this motion, let it do so.

It is orrly a recommendation.


if it wishes, have a Committee will be, find out what the implications but the voice of the "Floor" Members of this Council will have spoken.

I cannot accept the amendment when I know from past experience this is what will result - · next year this time we will be awaiting with bated breath the findings of that Committee.

I say that without any harm meant.

I cannot accept the amendment.

n.on.

Members do not wish to accept the motion as it is, they can reject it.
If Mr. Luckhoo: May I be given an opportunity to reply?

Mr. Speaker: We cannot sit after 5.30.

There is one point.

The law the right to sue gives everybody without a · fiat with Government respect to the Transport and Harbours Department but limits the recovery of damage to only $25 :-- Mr. Speaker: Hon.

Members can motion.

You agree to the ori1ginal need nQt have the Committee you especially want it.

unless The Attorney General: I had intended to suggest to the hon.
Member, Mr. Luckhoo, to put the matter to the vote.

Mr. Luckhoo: I would like to say· Mr. Speaker: I will put the that' I cannot and will never agree to amendment first.

1745 Motion-Government 7TH MARCH, 1957 Liabilities in Tort 1746 Question put, negatived.

and amendment Mr. Spea�er: I hope it will be possible to implement it.

I propose to Mr. Speaker: I now put the adjourn until next Thursday.

motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion adopted.


Council adjourned to 2 p.m. on Thursday, 14th March, 1957.