Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698077686141.pdf (Guyana)
843 Members Present LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Mosqiiitu 844 Ne:tf.ing lEGISLA llVE COUNCIL ern District).

The Hon.

C. R. Jacob (North West­ The Hon.

A. G. King (Demerara River).

Wednesday, 18th October, 1941,.

The Hon.

J. W. Jackson, O.B.E.

The Council met at 12 noon, His The Hon.

T. Lee (Essequibo River).

(Nominated).

the Officer Excellency the Government, President, C.M.G., Mr. W. L.

Heap!

!, in the Chair.

Administering The Hon.

A. M. Edun (Nominated,\.

The Hon.

V. Roth (Nominated).

PRESENT.


The Hon.

C. P. Ferreira (Berbice River).

The Clerk read prayers.

His Excellency the Officer Adminis­ Mr. W. L. Heape, tering the Government, c.M.G., President.

The Hon.

the Col011ial Secretary (Acting) Mr. M. B. Laing, O.B.E.

The minutes of the meeting of the held on Thursday, Council, Hl44, as printed taken as read and confirmed.

and citculated, 12th October, were The Hon.

the Attorney-General, Mr.

ANNOUNCEMENT.

E.Q_ Pretheroe, M.C., K.C.

The Hon.


the Colonial Treasurer, Mr.

APPRECIATION OF COMMERCE.

OF THE CHAMBER E. F. McDavid, C.B.E.

The Hon.

C. V. Wight (We;;;tern Essequibo).

.

The Hon.

J. I. de Aguiar (Central Demerara).

The 1PRESIDENT: I have been.

asked by the Georgetown Commerce to conve:y the Legislative the Bill to amend the Georgetown Chamber of Commerce Chamber of their thanks to Council for pas'!ing Grdina.nee.

The Hon.

H. N. Critchlow (Norni­ trnted).

ORDER OF THE DAY.

The Hon.


M. B. G. Austin, O.B.E.

r Nominated) .

MOSQUITO NETTING FOR INDIGENT PERSONS.

The Hon.

F. Dias, O.B.E.

(Nomi­ Mr. ROTH: Sir, I beg to move:-- nated).

The Hon.

Percy C. Wight, O.B.E.

Central).

(Georgetown Whereas the incidence of malaria in Georgetown at present is higher than it has been for the past two years, and Whereas the supply of quinine is The Hon.

J.

B. Singh, O.B.E.

(Dem­ erara-Essequibo).


limited and it is conjectural may be replaced, and when stocks ' Whereas despite Government's The Hon.

Peer Bacchus (Western Berbice).

promise to exempt it from Bill of Entry Tax, mosquito netting is still beyond the reach of poor people; .

I .. 845 Motion- 18 OCTOBER, 1944.


M o8qiiito Netting 8.J.t: to Government Be it Resolved, that this Honour­ recommend of such steps as may be neces­ able Council the t.aking sary to bring this most essentia l com­ modity, mosquito netting, within the by way of con­ reach of indigent insti­ trolled grants to certain charitable tutions, and such as the Infant Welfare Maternity Society, and ··arious the St. Vincent persons, League, de Paul Dorcas Societies.
reme�iber the old music hall song, the r�frain of which goes : "The rich g-et richer and the poor get children."

That very true, unfortunately is _ this country and its conditions.

true of I gave notice of this motion quite a that.

the lao;t time ago during and perhaps technically considerable session, the facts may not be quite what they were it is admitted then.
Nevertheless malaria in its effects is one of the greatest scourges in this country, as3ure us that owing to the peculiar physical practical mosquito fore the only means of fighting di'seases other mosquito-borne and until we know preventive the results ments with DDT the present mosquitoe against protection of mosquito netting.

of this disease.
this and is to take it is of the country the There­ conditions ly impossi!bl carrier of the forthcoming method of e to eradicate measures, s is the use experi­ relief, a letter Services and I find receiv­ that their diseases from such Jn June last the Director addressed Since I have been allowed the hon­ our to sit on the Board of Poor Law I have read the· monthly Commissioners reports of the visitors of children ing outdoor con?ition of health is clue in part, if not entirely, to mosquito-borne and lack of means of protection diseases.
Medical the subject.

and I understand ter were distributed bers.

I am very pleased the recommendations Jetter are very much in line with those in my motion.

If you will permit me sir, I will read an extract letter After explaining a mosquito the Director ter:- to the Chamber of C:ommeree that copies of that Iet-' in order to remind hon.

Members.

that it is no use _having net unless it is p�·operly goes on to state in his let­ among hon.
Mem­ to note that from that of on used from which we suffer and the malariologists in the Director's Gov­ mosquito would still co�operate "The following as follows-No.

might, I out the consider, programme which no doubt Government good and proper they declined organizations in carrying in the first instance:- ( a)Go�ernment Health Depart­ ment - eight health visitors are employed 7:1 (stationed ..

Village, Sorin glands; Williamsburg, Bush Lot, West Coast Ber.
Corentyne; bice; Buxton; Kitty; Den Amstel, East Coast, Demei-ara; Anna Regina Esse­ quibo), It is part of their d�ties to make regular visits infants in their district, and to attend at regular natal clinics the doctor).

Some time ago I approached ernment with the requeat that they For netting.

would subsidize reasons con­ sidered to do so-that is to subsidize it gener­ ally-but Govemment did promise to remove the Bill of Entry Tax.

Whether tlrnt has been done or not I am not cer­ tain.
But even if the Bill of Entry Tax were removed the material be beyond the meam; of the poor man.

For instance, I took the occa­ yesterday sion to have enquiries the dry goods stores to ascertain the price of the very cheapest mesh netting, average of 72 cents per yard.

Before net for could get a suitable the war one to get the $3.50; today it is impossible a number of same article health visitors working under the direc­ suffer most from mosquito-borne of the Municipal tion and control Department.
eases are undoubtedly the children, and more particularly of the poor.

Hon.

Members; League.

There are sil!

: Infant Welfare as follows-New stationed Health Visitors Amsterdam; Beterverwagting; cola, East Bank, Demerara; and Suddie.

Vreed-en-Hoop (c)In Georgetown, under $9.50.

Those who dis-· the children .


nuw in tbe'r h(,mc.s, infant and pre­ Agri­ La Penitence; (both with and without and found that it cost an made throughout (b)Health visitors 5.The following to all new born and largest are sug­ principles by the employed gested:- Health .... 847 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Mosquit o Netting 8 118 (a) Distribution should be confined to clinic babies.

Reason:-proper super vision is otherwise impossible.

(b) A nominal charge (at least) should be made for every net issued.
(c) Before a net is sold the Health Visitor -should satisfy herself the mother has available a suitable cot, etc., so that the net can actually be used and that she understands its proper use.

that (d) An approved unifo rm design of n~t ~hould be issued.

A demonstration rot prop2rly equipped with mattress, Ji!1cn.

and nP.t, should be set up in each health centre.

(e) Regular checks for six months hy tht> I·Iealt·h Visitor should be made to ascer tain that the net is being prop erly cared for and used.
In the first instance the scope of the scl,em2 might be restricted to the districts served by health visitors.

There are a number of other districts served by thirty nine subsidized midwives.

I do not sug gest in the first instance bringing them into the scheme but the position should be reviewed six months to a year after the inception of the plan with a view to e;den:,ci,:m if it is successful.

It is estimated that about 3,000 babies will attend these clinics in a year( exclu sive of Georgetown)."
What I a m asking is t h at Govern ment would implement the suggestions of the Di1·ector of Medical Services and in addit.ion include other welfare organ izat ion" '.·uch a,; Dorcas Societies, in par ticular the Children's Dor ca-.s Club and orr,-::i.nizations of thnt nature whereby rE-ally deserving cases of poor people would be placed in a position to acquire Jhi,; very essential safeguard of their healt h. I ask hon.

Membe1·s to support the mot ion.


Mr. FERREIRA: I have great plea.su r e in seconding the motion so ably moved, and I feel sure t hat a motion such as th is will r eceive the sympathetic consideration of this Council.

I, how ever, think the motion does not go far enough.

Recently Yom Excelleflcy made an announcement with r egard to experi ments with DDT.
I consider that one of the most outstanding announcements made in this Council for a considerable time, because I am convinced that rnalaria is t he chief impediments to the progr ess and development of this coun t r y.

Speaking of t he constituency I represent I h ave taken up the question of land settlement and the development of the East Bank of t b.e Berbice River, but I have it from Government that land settlement cannot b e considered in that district because of malaria.
It is well known th at t hat district is one of th e most fer tile in the Colony, and it seems a crying shame to think that fer tile lands should be in existence in this Colony and allowed to go abandoned merely because efforts are not made to contr ol malaria.

The question is a very big one and I will n ot take up t h e t ime of the Coun cil by cliscusRing the effects of malaria a nd malnutrition.
There is no doubt that some effort should be made, and if the acceptance of t his motion would be of some assistance in cont r olling malaria I think th i·a Government should take st eps to do ever ything in its power to help the people and so help the Colony.
The COLONIAL SECRETARY : (Mr. Laing, Acting ) : The motion which has just been moved in connection with mo:1- netting has t h e sympathy of quito extent but not to the Government, mentioned the in the motion before Council, which asks that mosquito n etting be brouught within r each of indigent persons.

Unfortunately in this Colony there is a great deal of overcrowding in what might be regarded as slum areas.
A ver y large number of persons occ•.1py the same room and many -persons actu ally occupy the same bed, and I have known and seen in.stances where persons sleep not only on the bed but under the bed.

That is not a condition p eculiar to this Colony but occu~·s the world over.

It will be realized by Members that there would be consider able difficulty in making proper use of mosquito netting under those conditions.
H is therefore essential-and the Director of MedicHi Services has stressed the point- that infant life should be protected, and p r o tected in p?.rticular against the malaria mosquito.

The Director of Medical Ser vices therefore proposes, as the hon.

Member ha·;; told us, to build a demon- ' 1 849 Mosquito Netting 18 OCTOBER, 1944, Spirit Shop H owrs 850 ,If: stration cot and to educate persons in t he use of mosquito nets for covering their young children.
By doing that they can,of course, protect their children not only from mosquitoes in the evenings but also du ring the daytime, and the further suggestion by the Di rector of Medical Services is that the mosquito net should be made available to mothers of clinic babier- at a nominal charge.

The co!

'.t of that proposal is now receiving t h e attention of the Medical Department, and Government desires to If support t he motion to that extent.

t he h on.
t he h on.

Member would agree to with draw his motion I think Government wou ld give an undertaking t o examine the ·matter further from t he point of view of t he recommendations made · by the Director of Medical Services, that is to try to make mo·3quito netting as far as possible available at a nominal cost to mothers of clinic babies, and also to provide the necessary educat ion in t he use of mosquito netting.
Mr. ROTH : I am very g rateful to hear Government\; attitude in going so far towards implementing the mot ion I h ave moved, but one h as to remem ber thwt there is qu ite a la~·gc popula t ion of young children who oannot be classed as infants, but who also requir~ and should have protection of t his n ature which their parents a nd guardian.

:,, through their i ndigent position, cannot afford.
Whilst being very t hankful for Government's assu rance to the length to which it will go, I oannot conscientiously I will leave it to wit hdraw m y motion.

the Council for the reason that I say there are hundreds, if not thousands, of little children beyond the stage of infancy wh o s uffer considerably from mosquitoes.

What I am asking is that certain reputable welfare organizations be g iven some controlled grant from which really deserving cases could be assisted other than accnal infants.
This would not be effected by the Director's proposals.

the of The PRESIDENT: Perhaps I should ask the hon.

Member if h e would with draw his motion if Government gave the lo.

that on receipt of a reply assurance from the Director of Medical Services aa to t he org,anizations which he thinks could µrofitably receive mosquito net ting at the c,ost to Government the mat ter would be brought back to the Coun cil?
We are rather in t he dark still ; we do not know what it is going to cost , a nd it is asking quite a lot of Gov ernment to accept the motion without knowing how· much money w ill have to be expended.

Government is in sympathy with the motion, and if the Director of Medical Services says that in hi'.
;; opinion mos qui to netting can be usefully issued at such a price to such and such an organi zation, with resulting cost to Govern ment of so much, I will bring the matter back to the Council which will then decide whether it is prepared to spend th at money.

Will that meet the hon.

1'1Tember?

Mr. ROTH : Yes, sir.

I thank you.


I had rather thought Government would have suggested t h e appointment of a small Commit tee to go into t hose very points which Your Excellency now assur es me Government itself will go into.

I accept your assurance and with .. rlraw the motion, Moti on withdrawn.

AMENDMENT OF LICENSED PREM [8E::l ORDINANCE.
Mr. CRITCHLOW: I beg to move :- to Government BE IT RESOLVED, that this Coun cil recommends that legislation be enacted in order that the hours between which licensed premises may be open in urban areas, as set out the First Schedule to the Licensed in Premises Ordinance, 1944, be amended as follows:- (a) That every day with the exception of Sundays, Christmas Day, and Good Friday, and as otherwise provided resolution be this amended to read-8.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m.-3 p:m. to 7 p.m. in 851 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
Spirit Shop Hours 852 (b) That Saturdays be amended to read-8.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m.-2.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. (c) That all Wednesdays and public holidays be amended to read- 8.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m.

I ask permissi on to substitute the following for par.
( b) of t he mot ion:- "(b) That Saturdays be amended to read 9 a.m. to 12 noon-3 p.m. to 8 p.m." Several s pirit shop proprietors and to shop assistants have asked me endeavour to get Government t o amend the Schedule to the Licensed Premises Ordinance beca use of t he fact t hat they do not agree with the shift sys.tern.

I have already h anded in a letter from the Minister ial Fraternal to the Colonial Secret ary along with t he names of employers and assistants who signed it .
I hope t hat the Council will s upport the mot ion.

When I was a young man I drank ll o'clock one night and found until myself I in a very funny position.

know what dr ink is causing the youths of this Colony.

We find more youths drinking today than in my day, a nd I do not think Government or the Social Welfare Organization has any inten tion to encourage our youths to drink.

Man y crimes are due to drink.

I hope the h on.


Nominated Member, Mr. Edun, will second this motion and withdraw his own, s o that the two may be dealt with together.

Mr. EDUN: In seconding this motion I would like to enquire whether the motion standing in my n ame can not be discussed at t he same time?

The ATTORNEY ~ GENERAL The position is that if t h e motion before the Council is carried the hon.

Member's motion cannot be taken at t his session.


Mr. EDUN: With t h at explana tion I will second the motion moved by the h on.

Member.

When the Bill was before the Council I was unfortunatel)' a bsent owing to ill h ealt h, and as soon I t abled my as the Bill became law I that considerat ion be motion asking given to the question of t he hours.

There was a Committee comprising the Hons.

de Aguia r , King, J.


A. Luckhoo, Critchlow and myself, with the acting Colonial Secretary as Chairman, on which t h ere was unanimous agreement on the other phases of the Bill but not as regards the fixation of hours.

Mr. Luckhoo did n ot attend the meeting, but Mr. de Aguiar and Mr. King stood out p~·ominently on the qu estion of the shift system, while Mr. Cr itchlow and I supported the other view- the fumtion of hours.
the Chairman thqught might have g iven h is vote in favour of our side, seeing t hat it was more in the interest of the social and moral wel fare of certain classes of people.

I am not here to say what prompted th e Chairman to decide t he ot h er way.

Pe~·haps he t h ought it was the b us iness of both sections to arrive at a com promise, but I thought t h at as the head of the Social Welfare Organization he migh t have thr own his weight on our I side.
do not wish to r efer to it, but with your per mis·sion, s il·, I would like to read ·a cutting from t he Daily Ch1·on-icle of the 1€t h instant with refer ence to comment s It the Chief Justice of Ber muda.

by r eads :- In a ny case that is the past.

"The excessive consumption of liquor and the necessity for lhe establishment of a Borstal Institution were dealt with by Sir Brooke Francis, the Chief Justice, in his address to the grand jury at the opening of the Michaelmus Assizes.
"The Chief J ustice described as 'a matter of concern' the extent to which drunkenness appears as a contributory factor in the commission of many of the offenees listed to be dealt with at this session.

"The manifestation is but fur ther confirmation of the view I hold, and of the opinion expressed by those engaged in social welfare work, that the consump tion of spirituous liquor is not only indis criminate but excessive among certain elements of the population."
Mr. JACKSON: May · I ask, from wh at paper the hon.

Member is read ing?

Is it from th~ "Chr onicle" ?

, I j ,; l)53 Motion_;_ i8 Oc:ronER, i944.

Spirit '8h01) Hours j('>,1 ..i Mr. EDUN: An extract from the "Daily Chronicle".

Mr- JACKSON : What paper is the hon.

Member reading from?

Mr. EDUN: From the '·Labour Advocate.''


(Continuing to read) "It is not as if the position in this respect w"re improving; on the contrary it is my belief as the result of two and a half years' expel'ience that there is a deterioration, and you may ponder with me whether the people of the Colony themselves, heatedly should not submit though it may be, in this fifth year of war, to some m easure of restraint."
That is an expression of opinion from a prominent legal member of t he Bermuda community, the Chief Jm,tice.

On examining the situation, as I do, I feel the same conditions are applica ble in this country, and I think the time is ripe when restriction on the consump tion of liquor should be definitely maintained.

But this is not a question of whether revenue is collected.
This is · a question which affects the vast majority of working class people not only in Georgetown and New Amsterdam but in the country districts as well.

It is for that reason, sir, I am of the opinion that in thi!

urban areas the proprietors of rumshops can come to a )<.ind of compromise, one of zoning.

That is to say, taking Georgetown for example, from Camp Str'eet to the waterfront and from Lamaha Stree-.
; a zone in to Sussex Street will be should be which all the spirit shops the closed at the hours specified in motion.

Similiar conditions exist in in the larger ones the other stores, Water Str eet close at 4 o'clock in the afternoon while the others continue to 7 o'clock.

There will be ample time for persons to get their liquor.

The question, as it stands, affects the social an·d moral welfare of a class of people definitely.
I say that because too have been approached by the I Minister's Fraternal and asked to do my level best to win t he suppor t of hon.

Members of this Council in so far as t the social welfar e side of the question is concerned.

If you happen to walk on the sti·eets of Georgetown from 7 o'clock in the evening to 9 o'clock, you would see on the pavements an unde..: sirnlJle clas·s of people knocking about 1.he rumshops.
That is what we ought to eliminate in this City of ours which we claim to be our principal town.

Let me take you for a mental walk to the John Bull rumshop in the evening just across the square, and you will see some ,:ig-hts t hat will make your heart leap.

lt is not because I do not drink, as I do claim that everybody should drink if he or she wants to.
But this much I o:,gltt to claim and what I do not like lo ·see, is one set of people to be classed in a particular strata and another set in another strata as if we are grading classes in the distribution of the sale of liquo!·.

If you continue to open spirit shops at night certain people will go there.

You are encouraging human vampir es, women of disreputable char acter, who ar c poisoning not only the morals of our people but t heir physical condition also.
is a the definite plan of work so far ·as Americans ar e concerned in a prophy lactic other diseases in Georgetown.

It is an excel I know that system.

It lent system.

i-s carried out.

was shown me how it We are not this country to institute a system like that in Georgetown to save the people from themselves and, therefore, if we cannot clo that then we ought to do thi-s : Let the people be able to drink or purchase their "grog" in the rumshops up to 7 .
c•'clock in the evening, and if they ar e not contented with that they may buy and take it to their homes to be drnnk there after that time.

the people of the upper classes drink and get drunk and behave badly, but wlier e: It is ln their clubs or in their homes.

one's pr ivilege to do that, but certainly not to drink and be drunk on the streets and so have the Police after you.

Many persons are convicted of drunkenness or other crimes actually caused by liquor.
in · a position in I know I know syphilis again·st there and I want to appeal to Government and to the proprietors themselves to take 855 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Spirit Shop Ho·iirs 85G • is the in Bermuda serious view of situation.

a the The condition condition here.

One is just the fac simile of the other.

Drinking is not con ducive to any ide.al at all, but if som e people think otherwise then let them drink at home or within the precincts of a club.
Surely, I think, it is the duty of the State to prohibit drinking on the streets of Georgetown after 7 o clock at night or after dark.

I o.m s ure that Government is not prompted in this case by the motive of collect ing revenue.

If it is otherwise, then as a British Guianese I would be sorry, but in my own mind I feel certain it is not so.

It is not a quest ion of rev enue collection from the consumption of liquor.
Now that we are spending a large sum of money on the social ancl welfar e organizations assisted by the and Welfare Colonial Development Act organization, I think we ought to show some gesture of goodwill the having accepted Imperial Government to carry on social and welfare work in this Colony.

We should say to the Impe,rial Govern ment, " We are following your trend of thou,ght and actioii.
; we are going to limit certain classes of people being drunk on the, streets of Georgetown to provce that we mean to carry out the principles of Social Welfare Devel in British Guiana."

opment that gift from the employers I do not want to detain the.

Coun cil.

I do not think it is a controversial question.

The hon.

Mover has told you that even the employers are willing to have the change.
I am sure, the shift system will not be in the inter themselves .est of because, as the result of the complica tions and the many questions to he asked by the Competent Authority and it will not be the Labour Inspectors, a their while worth few to and answe1· so many questions.

The shift system will be m ore trouble than hene fii to them.
I am sure that they as proprietors are not prompted to open their shops at night for the gain of gaining having dollars a little more money and, if they view the situation in the same way as I am viewing it and the Ministers are view ing it and other prominent citizens arc supporting it, I think the time h as come when we should eHminatc from the streets of Georgetown drinking after 7 o'clock at night.

The streets will be clear ; the people w ill benefit and you will have a · happier set of people.
So I think I should ask every Member of this Council present to su pport the motion as laid by the hon.

Mover, and let us have a fixation or ihe hours as stated and not forget what the Chief Justice of Bermucb has pronounced.

I wish only to that other Members feel that they deserve Mr. de AGUIAR: I wish first of all t o congratulate the hon.
Mover of t hh; motion and his able seconder on their persistence in delaying the proceed ings of this Council by the introdu(!tion of a mot ion of this kind; and in doing so r emind the h on.

Members of the lengthy debates that took place only quite recently on this subject.
On the other hand I would like to sympathize with them-and l like am sure myself some sympathy--because ihey have attempt to discuss a subject with which ed they are not familiar at all but are being guided eithe1· by their own morals or whai was told to them by other.

people.

In the first place those hon.


Members have forgotten that the question of the spirit trade is controlled by the Intoxicating Liquor Licensing Ordinance, the provisions of which are many and varied and the conditions of which are also many and varied, and the penalties attached to those condi tions ar e also many and varied.

I do not propose to deal with that at any length.

I propose just to i·efer to the Ordinance concerned, Chapter 107, am!
invite their attention t o the various provisions dealing with the sale of intoxicating liquor, as that may suffice thf.ir and make them change them 857 M otio'lt--- 18 OC.'J.

'0BER, 1944.

Spirit Shov Hours SM views.

But I would rather confine mv 1·emarks to the motion as it appear~'> in Council to-day.

this to say First of all I would describe the motion as one worthy of no considera tion.

It has.

no merit neither for those who set themselves up as moralists nor otherwise.
So much has been said the about curbing the drinking of people on the one hand, and yet in t he same breath it is said that the people can drink in their clubs or in their homes and in that way there will be no interference with anyone.
I would like is my experience not only of rum but several other commodities: The minute you restrict t he use of it you encourage the use of it I in many other directions and, suggest, you not only encourage ils illicit use but also in a way that ·;vi!l be far more injurious to the peor:le thi::; the hon.

Members of whom Council are trying to protect.

Would hon.

Members like to see rum not being sold in in rumshops but in brothels than is the City to a larger extent being done to-day'!
I venture· to suggest they will not that, like because the dangers arising out of the consumption of rum in those place::; tha.n the hon.

Seconder as far more of the motion even in his speech can illustrate.

see to restriction in If I may be permitted to go back said I to one little point, although I will not refer much to the Intoxi I cating Liquor Licensing Ordinance.

to refer, and I think I ought wish the to the to do so, shops.
number of licences for spi1·it These licences are not issued merel,v on application being made to the Dis trict Commissioner for permission to sell rum.

That is not the case a.t all.

Under the Or dinance there is a Board to which application has to be made, and since some years ago by an Order in Council the actual number of spirit the shops Board has no power whatever to increase that number.
The Board may in an area limited, is am licences, but it I somewhat I venture to suggest that consider applicatioas in the case of spirit shops having fallen out either on account of bad trade or otherwise and grant such is to issue a new lice·nce unless unable the number of spirit shops has fallen below the minimum prescribed by t hat Order in Council.

Therefore t here i: a certain amount of r estriction in that way.
When I hear that proprietors have asked for this motion to be bronght to this Council I aim not only amused but, perhaps, I may express myself by saying sur prised, because l know the spirit trade in GeorgetOWl1 in particular, and this motion deals particularly with in Georgetown and New Amsterdam.

As a matter of fact I think I can claim to have a knowledge of the spirit trade in the entire Colony, barring t.he I have not been.
Rupununi where Coming back to Georgetown I am positive as I the stand he-re that stated in the motion are not hours acceptable dealers in Georgetown.

Speaking fo1· myself.- !

happen to be o,ne of those proprietors -if I have t he slightest belief that a motion of this kind will go through I will move tho;!

different hours and different days through and by the it will be found that, perhaps, the question of the h ours will fixing not be the best thing to do.
to the 42 spir it time we are amendments trade the to The legislation that was recent.ly passed r estricted t he number of hours of work of an employee, and one would have expected these two hon.
Membe.n;, as accredited representatives of Unions, to come to this Council on the question of the number of hours of work th?..t the employees who are members of their Unions should perform, but they realize if they do that they will have a very bad case because the r ecent legislation passed limits the numbe·r of wor·king hours to forty-four (44) per week and, I think, eight (8) hours a day with a half day off during the week.

That is how the forty-four h ours · 859 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
Spirit Shop Hours eGO a week is arrived at.

Many employer~, it is true, had to make a good deal of calculatio•ns in order to have a proper time-table set up so that their employ ees can get what is entitled to them.

to The hon.

Members have not come this Council about that as they are evidently satisfied the employees have had they their fair due, but rather think they should bri'l1g this matter up from the moral angle.
I do not know what is the difference between a man being di'unk in a spirit shop and one who is drunk in a mushroom club in the City or one who is drunk for that, matter in the Georgetown Cricket Club.

I cannot see the difference between any of t hose men.

They are all drunk to and, what is more, they all have i'et home because I do not know that any of the respectable clubs in George town have accommodation for r esi dence.

Those who get drunk there have to get home the best way they can.
So I do not see the difference betwee!1 a man being drunk in a spirit shop, or a club, or at home.

To my mind be is the cannot prevent that.

But this is a comparisc,n I would like to make, and it is all over t he City.

Here you have a spirit shop at one corner and a mushroom club I the opposite side of the street.

on use the wol'cl "mushr oom'' advisably.

these I regret to say that some of clubs are fostered, perhaps, by some of the signatories to the request that was made to the hon.
the Fifth Nomi (Mr. nated Member Critchlow) .

in the day at U Closing o·clock makes no difference, as all they do · is to transfer the stock from the to the club run by John James shop and, what is more, make a little more profit on it.

I speak from personal experience.

same drunkard and you the shop We rum.

In spirit shop all know what can be don~ with the the proprietor has to conform to certai:1 laws.

T he Club owner has to do s0 reascn the same, but for some just he is very seldom caught.
The Rhop proprietor has to sell rum at a certain titrength and so on, but at a club yon can get anything · from a little methy lated spirits flavoured with some good rum, or a mixture of that spirits and some of the rum that is made from cane j uice, to good rum.

If that is the sort of thing this Council and Government would like to encourage, by all nieans go ahead.

But I do not know that these hours will suit everybody.

Certainly they do not suit my own business.


If I feel that this motion has any chance of passing this Council, I am afraid.

I would have to move certain amend to the hours proposed.

It will ments make no difference to me.

The hon.

Mover read from a pape,r an extract which was reproduced three times.

The PRESIDENT: I think it wa3 the hon.

Seconder!


Mr. de AGUIAR: It was reproducec\ least t hree times, that which hv at in aaempted to say a Chief Justice ,.,f Bermuda said about the number cases to be tried at a session and foe therefor.

I have not heard n iasons aliy of our Judges saying the same tbing here; so I do not see the cc,m parison.

It might have been a good cumparison if the hon.

Member could have at the same time cited one of our Judges makin,g a similar comment.
I cio not recall a comment of that kind having not I have heard times.

within comments on other matters, arson etc.

That does not arise in this particular case.

I wish to make it perfectly dear that although I a spirit shop proprietor I am not speaking for the this proprietors at all.

I think th.at is a restriction of the liberty of a person.

I cannot see why,- and I use the word ''l" very forci,bly-I can go to my club and have a drink at 8 or $1 or 10 o'clock at night and- I was going to say the hon.
Mover and Seconder hut they are non-drinkers.

been made, certainly recent am Mr. CRITCHLOW : I do have a drink!

..... 861 Motion-- 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Spirit Shop Ii ours 8G'.J stop them close down the cinemas,, it sug·gested that removing the people off see Mr. de AGUIAR: I do not why a man is not to be allowed to have a drink merely because he has to get his drink from a spirit shop.
Talking about the streets; if you are going to do that, let us start at once to clean the streets, the close and newspapers from publishing seditious matters.

You the spirit cannot start by closing shops.

That is not cleaning the streets at ni!l"ht.

Is the man who publishes a seditious article is drunk?

I have in a newspaper never heard that.

Yet there are numbers of this seditious articles printed in Colony that we know of, and libellous articles too.
Is it suggested that l:hf,y are printed by people who are drunk?

I have never heard that in my Me.

Even let us assume that they were drunk-I am positive they could not put that up as a defence-that because they were under the liquor they did not know what they were doing.

I am one who has always held that drunkenness is no excuse.

Perhaps I am speaking from personal experience, but I think that a man who is drunk knows very well what he does.
My experience is limit and get home long before the spirit shop closes.

that such people know their they were drunk- inf luence of the view if I am quite sure that this is not a step in the right direction.

If it were I would certainly support it.

Members have referred to the shift system a,; not working satisfactorily.

Surely thall cannot be true.

It was only introduced the 1st of this month.

Can any on Member say honestly and conscientious!)'

that the shift system has not worked?


I as a proprietor cannot say that because it has only just been introduced.

I to refuse the accept suggestion is not workmg it satisfactorily.

To whom it is not work ing satisfactorily?

Is it not working satisfactorily to the employer?

He was forced Is it not working satisfactorily to the employee to adopt it by law.

certainly that (._, it if I have they wish) satisfactorily?

In what way is it not or the public?


,Yorkirug the shift ~ystem in my own business and I make the statement (Members may believe that my employees have told me that when they go off at 12 to return at 4 p.m. they do not know what to do during the interval.

I told them that I had nothing their hours wer.

:i to do with that; fixed and they had to abide by them.
Perhaps that is where the system is unsatisfactory, but this mot.ion <loes not remedy it because it says:- every "(a) That day with the exception of Sundays, Christmas Day, and Good Friday, and as otherwise pr,ovitled in to read:--8.30 a.m. to 12.30 p .m.-3 p,m.
to 7 p.m.'' resolution to be amended this like I would people off That means that employees would have to leave at 12.30 and return to work at 3 p.m. For myself I would want to open at 9 a.m., close at 11, open at 4 p.m. and close at 9 p.m. 0£ course that would not keep people off the streets.

Closing the rumshops wou id the streek not keep I am amused when I hear attempts being made the young to educate the moralist view.

The hon.

with Member quoted what happened iu to make a Bermuda.
statement of fact about what happened in the United States of America.

I have visited the United States seve,ral times, reflection on the people and it is no or the Government of that country.

I was there before prohibition, dm-ing prohiibition and after prohibition.

When I was there before prohibition, I got a drink when I wanted on,e.

During prohibition I did not have to go any where for it because after a time I walked about with my own hip flask.
It could be handed to you byi your lady friend or any kind of friend.

It was the fashion to walk with a hip flask during prohibition, but even that time has chan,ged.

Now it is much easier to get a drink there.

Are we going to educate our young people to walk abrmt with hip flasks in their pockets, and 863 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Spiri"t Shop Hours 864 to rush into a rumshop at five minutes to seven in their hip flasks dowIL and asked that they be filled up for the night?
the evening, put What Members do not seem to appre ciate is that the average spirit shop i::; the poor man's club.

I visit my shop::; very often for experience.

I meet them and hear them talking.

Nine times out of ten t hey are talking about the Govern ment, about Members of this Council, and thin,gs of that kind.

In short they discuss general topics of the day.

The rumshops do not only sell rum over the counter.

That is only done to the odd fellow who is in a hurry.
The man who wants to go to a spirit shop in the afternoon goes into a private room and sits down there with his "cut down".

People of that sort do not harm any I have a shop in what some body.

Members may regard as one of the had districts of the City, but I do not think the Police can r ecord any misbehaviour in that area.

the This attempt to set up m orn!

standards is only a myth, a camouflage, and I say that Government would be ill advised to restrict freedom of the people.
We hear a lot a,boat freedom from .fear freedom of speech, and freedom from want, and we want to r estrict their freedom to drink.

Why dcn·t we restrict them in writing or speaking?

Very often they write what they do not know anything about.

Thi3 Government has gone as far as it could in restricting the number of hours employees should work.

The PRESIDENT: This Coum:il.

Mr. de AGUIAR: This Council has gone as far as it could in r estricLing the number of hours.
Now an attempt to r estrict the number is being made of hours business p1·emises may open and remain open.

What strikes me as peculiar is that these are the Members who talk about having three shifts- 24 hours a day-and suggest that we should .

become industrialized like uGher countries and find work for the peovle.
Why some of those places had to cl<Jse was because they could not afford to keep open longer, but if the trade in Water Street demanded 24 hours a day opening I am sure they would have put up a case to Government on the basis of the shift system and Gover-nment would have had to consider it.

Why ~,:re parlours allowed to remain open m1til midnight?

Why don't we close them at 4 p.m.?


As far as I am concerned, speak ing: as a Member of this Council I say that I r egret that I shall be unable to support the motion as it stands.

It haf; not even my sympathy, and I shall have to vote against it.

But as it seems that the motion might receive some kind of <.
;Ollf,.ideration I will put myself in order by moving amend n:en ts : - following the "That items (a), (b) and (c) be deleted and of opening following hours substituted therefor;- the On Mondays ..... 9 a.m. to 12 noon--4 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. On Tuesdays ..... .10 a .m.
to 12 noon- - 5 p.m. to 9.30 p.m. On Wednesday ..... .3 p.m. to 10 p.m. On Thursdays ...... 9 a.m. to 12 noun - 4 p.m: to 8.30 p.m. On F1idays ...... 9 a.m. to 12 noon--5 p.m. to 9.30 p.m. On Saturdays ...... 12 noon 4 p.m. to 10.30 p.m." to 2 p.m.-- I have in order I haYe suggested hours which ,nay sdt certain rumshops but I cannot s.i.y that they would be acceptable to all.

If we are trying to fix hours it ser~ms to me that I am quite in the hours suggesting ,inst mentioned.
I do hope that perhaps those hon.

Members who have spoken on the motion so far, and even t hose ,vho will follow, will agree with what that is that the I have stateci, and spirit trade is by its very nature a r e.stricted trade; that the number of hours an employee must work in those places is already prescribed by law, therefore no relief is required in that ~ 865 Motion-' 18 OCTOBER, 1944, Spirit Shop Hours 866 direction, and lastly, whether the hon.
Member's hours or mine are accepted there is bound to be a reduction in the number of people who are at present engaged in this work.

I speak for mysdf 110w and say that as a r esult of the shift system I had t o employ more people, but the minute the present hours have no alternative but to send them away.

The suggested hours would provide an 8-hour day and I would have no use for t he extra people who are now employed.
I am sure that that is ':he position of a number of propriet.ors who have also adopted shift syst em.

reduced I will are t he Mr. FERREIRA: I would first of all ask that copies of the Order of the Day be supplied to Members before m eetings of the Council.

'I'he question was raised quite recently and r-aise it again.
It is true that on I this occasion I telephoned the Clerk of the Council and got the information I wanted, but if Your Excellency is the aware of what takes place on telephone trunk line ser vice you will realize that t here are occasions when it takes a day to get a call through to Georgetown.

On t his occasion it took I am suggesting tk,t ~ e two h our s. for the convenience of Members we should receive copies of the Order of t he Day at least three days before the meeting.
I would further s uggest thr.t when the Order of the Day is being sent to the printers typewritten copies could be sent the Council.

to Members of The PRESIDENT: E ver y possible step the is being take·n now to get information to Members.

At th e last meeting of this Council I stated that we would meet on Wednesday for the sole these motions.

I then got the Order Papet· out to Members on M.onday morning-, the · as soon as it was r eceived from printers.
Every Member who was pre sent at the last ~ eeting knew that we were meeti'llg on Wednesday for the discussing purpose of l l purpose of discussin,g this motion and other private motions.

I will bear the hon.

Member's remarks in mind.

I have already discussed th.i matter with the I entirely acting Colonial Secretary.

should have the agree that Members Order P aper about m atters which they are going to dis cuss at the earliest possible time.
information or Mr. FERREIRA : With regard to the motion itself the mover mentioned that he had been approached both by €mp loyers and emplo'yees.

Surely the employers would h ave the remedy in their own hands.

If they want to keep their premises open for eight hours a day it is entirely open to them to do so.

In fact some of them ar e already doing that, and as regards the employees they are already provided for as from the 1st of this month.
I gathered this too from the mover and t he seconder that the social ·wel fare problem was r eally the object of the motion, but when I listened to the seconder he was it struck me that ta lking more in terms of clubs; so-c::ille.'!

and doubtful hotels.

boarding houses, So far as I am aware, the type of person r eferr ed to can be found outside those doubtful hotels and clubs which I s uggest should be under the clos•J scrutiny of the Police Department.
If we accepted fixed hours it would r eally mean that t he public and the poor man would have to go to the various mush- 1·oom clubs and pay possibly twice the price he would pay for his liquor in the spirit shops.

In other words the only result would be to increase th.c price the consuming public and consequently to deprive the legitimate trader of honest trade.
There can be no doubt a.bout it that throughout the world, and even in Germany, p2oplc are drowning their sorrows in liqncr much more in recent t imes than they I do not see did a few years back.

how we can attempt to r estrict t he liberty of the subject in this way.

If a man wants to have a drink surely he is entitled to have it.

to 867 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Spirit Shop H oiirs 8G8 boardin.g the limiting or the bus park.

in Georgetown to the seconder shops but the clubs of this Council.
I I do not see how such me that this motion should The hours su,ggested will not suit , such certain localities ai; the railway station When we are discussing of the sale of liquor we have to consider the entire liquor trade, and not only the spirit and doubtful hotels.

can be accepted.

is increasing of Berbice.

tc, have bush rum sold at dances in New Amsterdam.

that a motion of this kind, if adopted, would further increase rum.

I ask hon.

Members not to support the motion.


co!1ivince have the support would suggest of the motion that there are other and far better ways of protecting the morals of the younger people of the Colony than by closing in the evening.

save the boys and girls of this or any other City.

I have not known of one instance in which a boy or a girl was ruined through of the City.

They are ruined by other means.

If the hon.


Member has a sincere of a certain there are many avenues arid I desire to save the young peopje class I can assure him that open to him, · in the County It is quite a common thing rumshops This is not the way to The sale of bush rum that he try them.
the rumshops the sale of bush to suggest a mctio·1 I venture suggest rapidly houses and at 7 o\:lock to impose further restric­ by the After of drink consider remarked enforced surprise or imagine the control the liberty by the Police by this motion.

of the Colony.

As has been rightly that there is no n'c!ecl spineless or stupid foat Mir.
KING: I have very little I view with alarm the which are being placed day to say except to express that only a few months ago this matter was dis­ cussed by the Council and protection was given to employees so far as hour;; of work are concerned, but within a few months of that being done we have a motion which, to a great extent, restricts and movement of the subject, and which must affect tc a great extent the earning capacity of the rumshop proprietors Personally restrictions after day on the liberty of the subject If we -the liberty go on at this rate we will have to obtain licences speak.
I deprecate business ference or advantag tion of the community.

the motion attempts to interfer e with the rights not only of the man in the streets but of a very lai,ge est in this Colony.

hon.

Member for Central Demerara (M1·.

de Aguiar), is so rigidly Department v.hatever tions suggested all we must not that the people of this Colony are so weak-willed, we have to make legislation H:em doin,g something is wrong.
If a man does not want to drink he does not have to, and if he wants to drink the closing of rumshops at 7 o'clock not going to prevent i11g.

If a man wants to get drunk I can assure the hon.

mover and second­ er that this somewhat pusillanimous motion is not going to prevent him, and he would get drunk even if the rumshops were net open at· all.

.After a time it becomes such a disease that he would do anything to fulfil his desire or appetite.
A motion of .thio, kind is not going to assist people of that type: unless and until such inter­ a scandal to move, breathe and with e being taken of any sec­ of his mo�ements.

inteTference In this instance is essential him from drink­ which we feel to prevent to prevent vested inter­ at night is Unfortunately I was not in my Reat when the mover of the motion spoke, but I was here when tbe seconder spoke.
I listened heard nothing morality very carefully beyond the grounds of and social welfare which could but I is not going to save the morals of the young people of Georgetown Amsterdam, consider and New and if that is so then I it c1, restrictiop of the lil:;>erty A motion of this kind,.

in my opinion, 869 Motion- 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Spirit Shop Hours 870 "' After to insult was pas8ed in his infer­ this motion is· To me it is a some­ the rumshops.
the population There are far better are being many restrictions That is my way of think­ on the people of the City and There is no need whatever The PRESIDENT: The hon.

Mem­ we are going the rnm­ asking­ and closing Try to persuade to alter their when the Bill Sir Gorcfon and, therefore, them by closing in the various dis­ to suit the conveni­ for days and I the question and within a few months if this sort of thing happens.
w0 sat in solemn conclave clays considering passed legislation, you get a motion trying to amend, or abridge, or alter it.

If passed we would get motions from all over the Colony in this Council that the hours of opening of the rumshops tricts be altered ence of the people of those districts.

it certainly of the subject.

Personally will not have my support'.

As I have �aid before, imposed elsewhere.


for this Council of this City and of the town of New Amsterdam to the extent of saying that they are unable to take care of themselves to protect shops at 7 o'clock.

what silly way to help people to help themselves.

· other ways.

You are not going to keep the young people off the street by closing them to, go elsewhere, outlook on life.

Educate them.

C11lti­ vate their minds to a higher standflrd of living.
ing to save the people of this City, especially certain to my personal lmowledge, a tremendous amount of good.

Th'l!

; is the kind of movement we want all through the Colony; not this silly ide::i Mr. KING: I do not remember of closing Perhaps I was not in my seat when The salvation that undertakin.g has been too long delayed.

however, start when they are young to try to been given, as I said before, keep them off the street before they 1!1.tion get to the rumshop when it is too late-.
necessary If I thought there was any chance of other procedure saving the morals of the young peorle bringing of the City by closing the rumshops cil and not as has been done in this would have given my utmost support case.

I have no desire to spenk at any to any motion for that purpose.

Dut length.

I have been unable to find any sugges­ tion in the speech made by the hn11.
Seconder to convince motion will benefit those ber is not quite correct ence, because His Excellency was in the Chair, gave an undertaking, which in effect influenced Mombers in agreeing 2 motion would be moved subse([llcntly to amend the hours.

It is not quite correct to say hon.

Members m,1v0d · the amendment passed.

The inference correct.


has been passed and it becomes after to amend the hours, in the motion before thiR Coun­ after the Bill had b�rin is not qnite Mr. JACK SON: l am supporting that where consideration me that this people.

of these wayward youths was given.

I do feel, I shall vote against should be adopted the young people.

in this City whi.ch, the rumshops to the Bill, that at 7 o'clock.

movements the motion.

some of the who Lethem, and legis- are doing­ There arc We muf't that.
hns l I would For the sake of uniformity like to second the motion made by the hon.

Member for Central Demerara regards a change of the hours.
I think, however, rnoreso to show this Council how impossible motion before the the present Council sections to this Council is; and you will get various of the Colon,y coming forward with similar he moved that motion motions, as of this kind Perhaps it may Rurpris� the motion nor the amendment, that the Ordinance r.either for I am satisfied should be given a fair chance before any motion or amendment is brought.

hon.
hon.

Members when I say that there is decidedly in the Jess drunkenness City and in the Colony today than there was fifteen or twenty years ag-o.

(Voices: that I say it without tion, 11� the days gone by when there "Hear, hear!'')

When I say fea,r of contradic­ I \ 871 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
Spirit Shop Hours 872 established of drunkenness on the streets there were and due to no societiee, or in order to and \t was a great display misconduct drunkenness organizations reduce the amount of drunkenness lead the young people into the path.

:i and virtue.

I want to of rectitude sir, that if the intentions of suggest, the hon.

Mover and his Seconder are • honest and they would like to see the to The process a Bill to have Governmrnt and in an in 1921.
Instead of this aJopt­ fixed hours in Georg-e­ hours hours, of local conditions.

Hon.

Members will 1·ealize It gave the actual more latitude is this: The �.\cs shall open premises hour and none 8hall open as early as they do, but sJ1ould a: �he same time I find the motion so r1�1d that if it is carried will have to introduce these compulsory town and New Amsterdam every area which may be declared urban area.
that England went through the same stages as this Colony in respect matter and that England subject ed the reve1·se of having restricted prohibitive they changed over to permitted and the system has worked and it is much more lasting.
or lessees proprietors fix their own hours in order to take advantage English system says, no licensed before a certain hour awl remain open after a certain �u shall close for two hours during the but you must day at the sa,me period, fix your own opening and closing and what time you will take your two hours off.

· Anything :mpport recall manfully mittee which struggled the shop hours.

We had meeting deputation meeting, petition hopeless everybody.
Je.p,:,;on of a Bill do not try to be rigid but Looking-back T give a little the mi.s­ see in that Shop Ordinance take was that it was too rigid.

Now we have petitions living in the river districts the hours.

We went too far and mad� it too rigid.

Can we not benefit from that experience motion?

like that T will at once.

Hon.


Members will that I served on that sub-Cr,m­ We were taught one and that wa� in the framework from all the people against petition, to fix anything after deputation, with this present to fix after and it was quite latitude.

to please aftei· If this motion, as proposed by the we are tied hon.

Mover, is carried down to fixed hours for every place in New Amsterdam and Georgetown, other urban areas.
I will support t.he Firstly of motion willingly for the reduction hours if they are not fixed and without j liquors organizations spirituous improved, morals of the young people of start­ lhey m�ght adopt the principle which ing and supporting the stretts will take the young people off on life.
�nd give them a good outlook to the mover perhaps, I would suggest, that they should nse and his seconder to each every effort to place adjacent rum.shop an · organization like th� Band of Hope Society or the Temperance Society or to be· called name they like, and preach whatever to the young people that instead of they should drinking ·or juices that.
drink the soft beveraiges they could produce have their organizations ly, silently near the rumshops do a great deal more than from the motion which has been tabled.

I believe sideration hours was passed, and it will he madness to have those hours changed a fair opportunity now without ing how that Ordinance been given.

I take it that the ame11<l­ ment was only an afterthought, as in and I do not it is a bit ludicrous, itself think the mover and seconder are motion serious at all.
I think the by this should certainly Council.

quiet­ working opposite and beautifully or they may be ahle to they e,xpect of see­ worked havin,!T, that after very careful con­ the Ordinance be rejected for them.

If they fixing th.-i The· A'l'TORNEY-GENERAL: I that I am not speaking on behalf of Government.

may emphasize officially you said, sir, we are not bound one way or the other in this matter.

I am in speaking fnr in a little other Members too.

the motion has my sympathy.


I agre.e that it is absurd that these places difficulty As 8"73 Motion- 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Spi?

'it Shop Hoiws The 1·eason, of altering.

any possibility The hon.

.Member for Central Demerara l1as moved an amendment.

He will be the last person to want that carried, nnd he :wants me to move one to get him out of the difficulty.

1 feel, hon.

Members of this Council are being rushed is that they have not harl an opportunity these hours suit the public.
we ought to have that opportunity.

We ought to be advised who have had an opportunit the matter or, perhaps, know it without studying move the following original it.
In view of that T beg to amendment by the people y to study to find out whether resolution:- I thi1ik to the therefor: "All the words after the words "rer.om­ mends to" be deleted and the following substituted - "His Excellency the Officer Administering that a Committee be appointed and report on the extent to which it is desirable to shorten the hours during which licensed premises in urban area, may be open."
the Government 1:o consider The effect of that is to request you, or not and, to decide l a Committee motion are suitable sir, to appoint whether the hours set out in the original if not, what hours are preferable.

When we get that report we will know the facts we are working on.

At the moment hon.

Members cannot say whether these hours will suit the licensed New Amsterdam.

i8 that it is impossible to have exactly the same hours to suit every single place.
It seems there should be some latitude lessee to suit local conditions.

ly to move the amendm�mt.

or for the hours to be fixed by him in Georgetown and My point of view given to every proprietor I beg formal­ premises The COLONIAL SECRET ARY sec­ onded.

Mr. de AGUIAR: Speaking I would like- the amendment on The PRESIDENT: Which amend- ment?
Mr. de AGUIAR: The one inst · • to It be open greater and harmless or one year's time, fixed by this Council at thr� f like that or a. motion in ., - perh<Lps the • may come back and say moved by the hon.

the Attorney-General It sounds very reasonable at first blush, and I am inclined agree with it, but what I have risen to say is this: It seems to me that if an amendment that form comes up in the Council, say in six months' then perhaps it would receive support than it may receive today.
My reason for that is· this: This Council is now being asked to suggest to yo·u, sir, that a Committee should be formed to go into this question of the number of hours each day that.

r, these licensed premises should or the hours when they should be closed.

I think that is striking root of the whole thing to do that now, when the number of working hours per day for an employee hns been already 01.1 the basis of the number of opening hours of these licensed premises.
seems to me that to come back m,rl suggest an alteration Committee that the opening hours at present existing are suitable because there is quite a lot of argument for :mrl against-will at the root of the decision wh'"n ,n have that Bill prescribing the maxi- • mum number of working hours as forty-four ( 44) per day and eight hours a day and not longer than fol'r and a half ( 4¼) hours at one spell.
The whole thing was very carefully worked out, and if there is going to be any alteratio there is bound to follow a number of consequential alterations in the num- ber of working hours W:hat I am· afraid, haps it may be found not so convenient to limit the number of hours in the way we have done in that last Bill.

I mention that, as there is a good deal of merit in the amendment the hon.

the Attorney-General.


reasonable, much "better if the present system which has been introduced given an opportunity be striking of the Council here was to work say for moved by It sounds '!'

n of the opening hours only I think it would be of the employees.

sir, is this: Per­ 875 Motio11r- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Spirit Shop Hours 876 _ we may follow his suggestion.

and after that time then six months, perhaps If the Committee is going to take two years to re•port, the I would support �.mendment.
that the best way yo-u Bill a�d suggests in regard to the can raise the q1:1estion ch3:nge of how·s zs to give notice of reso­ of the Council at today's meeting lus1on - to be, etc.''

I have the honour, Mr. CRITCHLOW: I heartily sup­ moved by the pert the amendment hon.

the Attorney-General.

I am of the areas should opinion that different to them.

hours suitable • have different done in other parts of the That is world.

I do not know if I can reply to the remarks made by hon.

Members.
Members.

The PRESIDENT: Yes, you can!

Mr. CRTTCHLOW: A cett-tain, hon.

to discuss ·I of Religion I did give such notice but we were th�n told to a!Jow the Bill to pass and bnng the matter up later.

So you can se� that we were willing this matter long before the Bill was passed.

I say it is not fair to say that we sat down and said nothing.

.

wonder if those Ministers who supported gest that these hours be changed?
reply to many ·of the things that have been said I say, it is a great pity that some of the members of the Committee do not know what exists of the world.

I have travelled most p!nces I _have visited such restriction of licensed ciosing and in they have for the opening and us are silly too to sug­ In in other parts premises.

a lot about restriction of the subject, and a when the hours are 10 a.m. these hours.

Is it are Member talked and �he liberty �ertam hon.
Member said it is a silly idea to restrict meant that the people of Trinidad that their Spirit Shop Ordin­ so foolish that these shops must ance provides open from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. and from 4 p.m. to 6.30 p.m, on week days except Saturday to 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. to 7 p.m.?

The can tell this hon.

the Attorney-General Council that in England the spirit shops open from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. -and from 5 p.m. to 10 p.m. Do you mean it is silly for them to restrict hours of opening?
man and look at both the emnloYers' and Government's I 1,,vould like to see the employers hav8 sufficient also.

Government must allow the Bill to pass and bring a motion with respect to the hours later.

I do not want it to be said that wo are not serious.
I was serious before the law was passed beciwse I sat on a Committee sider this matter and two of us were the for the hours and two against but in Chairman favour of the other side, and before the Bill was passed I sent a letter to Government and this is the 1·eply r£ceived: time to ,:ell their drinks had told us that we ga.vP, his casting vote sides in this 'iu�tfor.
I am a fair labour to con­ appointed those I "27th July, 194t Sir-The Governor has directed say that he has received the ?6th July regarding me to of your let,tei· Shop the Spirit As regards the present hours we are and not going to change the 44 hours working week.
I h:we walked around and talked with both employers employee,; and they have said there should be a law that certain areas should have different In Water Street after a certain the business places close down and snch trade is transferred section town, much business night.

Arnmgements fix the hours so as to suit the propri• etors in the different to another of the town.

Take Albouys� is done there at can he made to hours to others.

areas.

hour but wh;t Mr. DIAS; I have listened to the debate we have had.
I was in moved bv lengthy favour of the amendment the hon.

the Attorney-General, has struck me is this: If a committee to consider i:!

appointed they may be exceeded sidered because Committee and report on the extent to which it is desirable which licensed may be.

open."
open."

I want to suggest that the hours during in urban areas necessary the amendment a to consider be appointed to shorten or it may be con­ premises to shorten these hours the hours, reads: " ............ S77 Spirit Shop Hours 18 OC'l'0BER, 1944.

Rice Expansion Schemes 878 Attorney-C'rener­ to the Committee otherwise is to consider wheth- if the Committee , er the hours are desirable, then ii; seems to me the hon.the al should modify it a bit so as not to be misleading they may misinterpret Government.
I take it, does not consider the hours but they must consider whether it is desirable what extent.

myself clear.

of Government I do not know if I made they should shorten the intention and, if Ro, to beg to move:- ACCEPTANCE RICE EXPANSION OF C.D.W.

FUNDS F0lt SCHEMES.

The COLONIAL TREASURER:· I THAT, with reference to the Officer Mes.

'>age the Government's under the Colonial Administering No.
6 of the 2nd of August, 1944, this of Council approves of the acceptance funds provided Devel­ ment and Welfare Act, 1940, to meet the cost of the following schemes:- Crabwoocl Lots 63-74, Corentyne Coast --· -·-· ··-·· Creek...... $170,000 ...... 73,600 rice expansion Weldaad, West Coast, Berbice -·-· -·· __ Mahaicony-Abary Perth Canal Mahaicony Anna Regina Rice Mill ...... Rice Mill ... _.
..... ...... ····- 42,600 275,000 18.000 20,000 32,000 that the matter should receive $632,000=£131,f,67 'fhe PRESIDENT: You have made clear.

I do not know whether yourself the hon.

Mover will accept that minor :i.mendment.

should but I felt it was The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It is it that I that the Committee quite true when I drafted intended look for a reduction, important consideration go upon.
I a,greerl more facts to amend the motion in order that facts can be secured it to read "on the extent, which it is desirable hours ............ for us.

I amend to shorten the to the if any, to , and that we should get Mr. CRITCHLOW: I beg to sup• port the amendment my motion.

and to withdraw Mr. de AGUIAR: I withdraw The hon.

Mover of the amendment.

original I have no other choice.


his, motion having withdTawn my The Attorney-General's motion was and the put, and the Council voting resulted divided as follows:- For: Messrs. Edun, King, Peer Dac­ Percy C. Wight, Dias, Austin, clius, Critchlow, Colonial eral and the Colonial de Aguiar, Tl·easurer, the Attorney-Gen­ Secretary-12.

C. V. Wight, the Against: Messrs. Ferreira, Roth.

.Jackson and J acob--4.

Motion passed.

Hon.


Mem­ should Areas under the of those fnnds are that on the completion acceptance under which those Develop­ Act, and in particu­ The object of the motion is to record acceptance under the Colonial this Council's provided ment and Welfare lar to record the Council's of the conditiom; funds are being provided.

bers will see the three conditions stated in par.

4 of Message No.

6 of the 2nd August, 1944.


Those three conditions of the works the areas involved as Drainage be declared Drainage and Irrigation secondly, declaration ance rates on a satisfactory basis be levied for the upkeep of the (and this is mm;t. works, and, thirdly, important), that any private lands improved as a result of these works should contribute rates towards works.
The first of those conditions which, of course, Council, when works of this character out the areas become Declared Areas, and the second condition The third consequential of areas annual mainten­ and agreed is well lrnown in this that principle are carded Drainage is that as a result of ;:;uch by way of acreage on the first.

is an accepted Ordinance; the capital cost of these 879 C.D.W.

Fu,nds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Rice Expansion Sche>ines 880 is, as Members are perhaps Parliament.
laid down that funds of the and Welfare AcL In condition aware, one of the main features Colonial Development passed by the Imperial that Act it is definitely money provided from Imperial to improve private shall be subject ment that a portion in the value of those lands resulting from the expenditure nccrue to the general revenue of the Colony concerned.
was stressed in this Council when we nccepted the money provided Doeraslric-Bonasika lands in the Colony an arrange­ of the increase of that money shall That condition to 8uch scheme.

for thc­ b1.

!t the maney tentative Members well known that the funds ly as a loan with Tegard to the arrange­ is simple, is a matter of some have been provided but as soon as action is taken to implement those conditi01rn becomes a free grant.
Implementing the first two conditions the third condition difficulty P1ent for taxing the increased the lands.

That is now a subject which is being-given very careful tion by Government.

by a ·Committee ship of the Commissioner Govern,ment, was made that a Central Committee shoukl he set up to advise Government nR to how that tnx should he levied.

is a very difficult subject, tli'r iR to be given careful consideration.
nnder the Chairman­ of LOC'.al and a recommendation It but the m�t­ It was considered considcn,­ and urgent value of of labour, rice produ:�­ as regiinls as possible additional and we we·re asked to do food producti.on Mem­ Schemes were first con­ idea was to get as available Expansion ceived the original quickly as possible land for increasing for the West Indies generally.
bers will remember that in 1942 condi­ tions became veTy difficult food supply, "vhat we could as urgently tn increase facilities for tion.

Members know very well that we have not gone ahead very quickly.

Through shortage materials and so on these schemes are taking rnther longer to come into being than we had hoped.

Nevertheless, what has developed out of it is this: that they ti.re now an imporbi.nt step in post-war planning in respect of the economic future of the rice inrlustry.
· If Members have read those de!

'l­ patches they will note that involve drni11ag some 30,000 ncres of new land which will be available nnr1 the improvement to the extent of another 2.000 or 3,000 acres.

Looking at the figures them­ selves Members will ,;ee that in addi­ tion to the amount stated in this motion ($632,000) h�.ve sinre gone forward for even lar�er schemes.
fM rice cultivation, e ;,chcme;, covering­ applications of existing fllrther they hnd the scope notice of the Council of these Rice Expansion but I should like to to bring to the I have l'laid that the object of the motion is to put these things on record in this Council, take this opportunity general and character Schemes.

In the Message it is stated that the Governor has addressee!

to the Secretary applications ·seTies of despatches of State forwarding for free grants and so on.
I took the opportunity at the last meeting of the Council to lay printed copies of those and I hope Members will c1e;:;patches, have some.

opportunity to read them 11nd to study them.

When these Rice a approved of have One other drainage scheme scheme by the Secretary which have not yet been scheme, for has been is the Bloomfield-Whim for $96,000.
The other very large schemes finally State, but for which applications gone forward, are the Mahaicony­ Abary rice cultivation ,vhich a grant of $302,000 a:-ked, and the scheme for the provision of mechanical $324,000 Members know that Government already initiated schemes.

That ,vas clone with the con• sent of the Secretary of State, and the formal action in asking for grants is taking place now that we know some­ thing of the actnal cost.

All those figures which equipment has been asked.


Of conrse has action on these of applications in respect for which 881 C.D.W.

F'unds for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Rice Expansion Schemes 88� the Mahaicony-Abary forward total no less In addition have already gone to tlrnt than $1,300,000.

we have sent forward applications to mill meet the cost of a new central which will be not less than $418,000.

So that altogether embraced been laid in Council diture of nearly $1,800,000.
will see that these schemes are very expensive, ant step in the planning war situation in respect industry.

the schemes which have call for an expen­ and they are a very import­ in the despatches for the post­ of the rice MembP.rs In one of the despatches three things It of the major and apart from the drain­ The most impori;,1.nt and in those scheme milling.

All have been dealt with land; we want mechani­ and prope1· are pointed out as being necessary.
is said that we want proper drained and irrigated cal equipment those three factors in those applications schemes.

of all is, of course, scheme.

That is a very large scheme indeed.

It covers an area of some rn,000 acres, age works what is planned there is the actual cultivation portion of that land by mechanical means.

Members will see in the des­ that during this year work has patches already started, land have already cultivation means, ancl reaping is now taking place.
Some Members have had the advantage visitin•g been most favourably is going on.

I do hope that opportun­ ity wi11 be taken as soon as possible by all Members of the Council.

not say more about it because sure some other Member will say some­ it.

thing aibout that place and, I think, have by what and 2,500 acres of that been brought under by mechanical I will I feel impressed of in this respect.

as a Board 'l'he for the work he of his gooil of him made by a local artist.
I think, rlid no justice has given an immense amount of his time.

I think the rice industry owe;; him a debt of gratitude has accomplished members of the Rice Marketing paid Mr. Seaford a rather humorous before he left the c·ompliment just Colony.

They wanted to express to him their appreciation work and had what is described portrait That portrait, to Mr. Seaford's erthele,;s Board had the picture -presented expressing he had done.
I merely mention that in but I do want it to go passing, down on record that I personally, and J feel sure the Government, is gratefui tn 1\1:r. Seaford he has done in connection fl<:hemes.

motion.

features classic , Pev­ it looked like him, so the framed and it to him with a letter of what their appreciation with these move the for the immense work I now formally Mr. deAGUIAR seconded.

We have in the Mahaicony to put it on record.


These with but spent a good deal of t.hi:,; to be on the East Coast on to see how Mr. PERCY C. WIGHT: I think this motion is rather belated.

practically money and we are now taking the opportunity schemes have been proceeded I happened Sunday and was surprised the sea water was flooding several It e-=;tate:c: district.

t.o is worth while sending engineers see what is happening.
that The odour comes from the dead fish caused by the• sea water getting water trenches authoritatively there myself.

This Council of money for the digging Dutch canal at Sarah.

It was dug by an old friend of mine some years ago but nothing further has been done.

All we have been told is that there is no Jabour and no materials are requirerl available.

are shovels and that kind of thin�.

I took Mr. Case and Mr. Seaford ,;ome time ago to see the place.
They SqW into the fresh I speak voted a ;,um of the old The only materials I own property is terrible.

because I just want to close by paying a to the man who, I think, is the of all this.

He is not here tribute originator today.

I refer to the hon.

Mr. Sea­ ford.

He has done an immense amount of work in connection with these schemes.

He has done it voluntarily :md freely, without remuneration, and 883 Mr. Lernpriere's Death LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
Rfoe Expa,nsion Schemes 88,i tolerant and sympathetic, and in my which I am sure is sharec.l opinion, throughout the Government his death will be deplored.

this Council would like to express its very deep regret and offer its deep sympathy to his widow, and incidentally clergyman to his brother in this Colony.

Service I think who is a · Ivfr.


de AGUIAR: With your to the lamentable death of sir, I should like on behalf permission, of the Unofficial Members of this Council to associate myself with the remarks you have just made with reference Mr. Lempriere.

have always regarded energetic at all times was willing he could in the service of thi-, Government.

I am sure that all of u,; around this table this afternoon grieved would wish that a letter be-sent to his widow and relatives.
We in this Council him as a very officer to give the best fed ove•r his sudden demise, ani and painstaking of sympathy who ACCEPTANCE OF C.D.W.

FUNDS For.

RICE EXPANSION SCHEMES.

The PRESIDENT: We will now with the Order of the Day.

continue animals walking water.

The conditions are appalling 1 must ask for some explanation delay in carrying work.
up to their knees in and of the out that little bit of of were put up at the Post We were given an estimate like $18,000 which I think something went up to $20,000, but the work is still hanging fire.

I was told on Sun• day by some people in the di strict that notices Office intimating that labour was required: One of the proprietors is willing to do the work provided Government undertakes money with a small rate of interest.
I observed that conr.rete piles have been put down to the width of the old Dutch canal.

That work was done in 1 \)48, but up to to-day nothing further ha3 been done.

I suggest that the Engineers should be asked to make a report on the matter.

of the district to return his The drainage work at Springhall labour Shovel has not been done.

If necessary, can be brought to the district.

work is the only work people are prepared to undertake because they are handsomely paid for it.
I am not going to criticize the Mahaicouy­ Abary scheme because the work done is undoubtedly very satisfactory.

With respect to the laying down of the machinery to Mr. Seaford.

asrmred of material classes I would like to be that the work is going to be due credit should be given benefit to the poorer · of people.

Ml'.

JACOB: I was very glad when matter.

Your Excellency's which are printed Paper No.


21 I the debate on this motion was rlefel'l'ed last week so that Members might read the despatches as Legislative Council of 1944.

Since the adjournment read with interest Message No.
G, the despatches, and several other relevant papers in connection with this I want to say at the outset that I support heartily of the funds provided under the Welfare Act Colonial Development and to meet the cost of the schemes, but not on the terms and conditions set out _in the Message.
I think we are all grateful for the help we have been gdting from the Colonial and Welfare say, looking Fund but I am sorry to at the expenditure on most acceptance this motion for the Development DEATH OF THE COLONIAL AUDITOR.

The PRESIDENT: I have :.01r:e to th� Before I came into Council I knew that Mr. was of very sad news to announce Council.

this afternoon Lempriere, very gravely Medical Services message intimating 2 o'clock iJI, and the Director has just sent me a this afternoon.
the Colonial that he died at Auditor, M1·.

Lempriere was a very able officer, he was a very helpful officer.

He wa3 and what is equally important, 885 C.D.W.

P unds for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

R'ice Expans'ion Schemes 881.> several schemes over a period of years that in my opinion more than 50 per cent.

of that expenditure has been definitely wasted and mis-spent.

at I am not going t o detain the Council too long to-day by speaking on several schemes.
I will concentrate my remarks on the Mahaicony-Abary scheme which is put down in Your Excellency's Message $275,000.
These sums have been given to t his Colony-to the extent of millions of dollars, I believe-with the object, as stated in the first paragraph of the Message, that these schemes should be r equest of " initiated at the the for the Colonies Secretary of State specifically as measures to increase the production of rice in British Guiana to provide for the in the endeavour r equirements t he British West of Indian Colonies.''

That is a very good thing.


It is what t his Colony had been hoping for for a very long time.

It is what every inhabitant of the Colony wanted-some r eal help to put rice or any other industry on a sound economic footing.

We are' all grateful the Secretary of St ate for th is help.

::.\for e than that-we a re grateful for the money given to us from time to time, but these I for one cannot say that sums of money have been properly spent.
The schemes have been hadly designed, the expenditure has not been the works properly supervised, and have not been properly carried out.

to The PRESIDENT: I would lik~ t 0 ask the hon.

MP.mber whether he has personally seen the Maha icony Abary scheme?

Mr. JACOB: I s peak from personal knowledge.

The PRESIDENT: Have you seen the Mahaicony-Abary scheme?

Mr. JACOB: I have seen it twice.


I took the t rouble this morning t o a;,k for the Hansard report of the debate of the 18th March, 1942, when the original r esolution was pas,sed, and I I '4 ~ the Council t hat whenever !coked up what I said on that occasion.

I will refer to that later on.

I wish to assure I speak here I speak on matters with which I am familiar, and if I aim not familiar with any matter I say so.

I am going to speak very frankly and freely on the Mahaicony-Abar y scheme.
I have said before that there was not t he expenditur e proper s uperv1s10n, If Your ,,.,-as· not properly controlled.

F:xcellency those things perhaps you will enqui re as to how many persons supervised the work before your advent to the Colony,.

and what happened to one gentleman who suddenly left the · Colony.

I refer to one of the Chief Engineers.

These things are not all made known t o Gov ernment, an<l it is well that Govern ment take cognizance of them and listen to what Members have to say.
is not aware of I visited It· is never too late the Mahaicony-Abary scheme on two occasions and spoke to at least 100 persons on the work that I think the rice indus was going on.

try was started over 5() years a.go, and it is indeed gratifying at this stage to t he learn that Government is taking right step.

to attempt to do the right thin g. We are now told that we are taking the I am sorry to say that right step.

right is not taking the Government step, and if hon.
Members would be f1·ank and would speak as freely as I do they would tell Government so.

It is t ime this Government take the right !-tep, and it is time this Government see that Imperial funds are not liter ally wasted.

The hon.

Member for Georgetown Central made cel'tain I do not know if Members r e.marks.

followed him very closely, but I cannot understand what the hon.

Member means.
Member means.

Private lands are going to be t axed in accordance with paragraph 4 of Your Excellency's Message which says: " ............

The Secretary of State has notified the Governor that approval is subject to acceptance of the conditions that (a) the .)

887 C.D.W.

Funds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.


Rice Expansion Schemes 8llS areas involved should be created declared drainage areas under the Drainage and Irrigation Ordinance 1940, (b) annual maintenance rates should be levied on an agreed basis, and (c) any private lands improved should ,contribute annual acre age rates towards the capital cost of such improvement ...... __ ,, It are that money to pay acreage to nearly every scheme rates.
They Is is clear that if this Council approves of those conditions every pro prietor has rate;; towards the capital cost.

When prac• tically one•half of is wasted what will happen?

That has I happened know, and that is why most of the schemes cannot bear the annual main•• tenance badly· designed.

this Government not aware of the fact that the Drainage and Irrigation Board has not got the confidence of the people concerned?

Is this Government still unaware of the fact?


Will this Government con tinue to close its eyes and say it ha,; the right to govern?

What I say is, continue with your methods and you will find the production of rice and any other product for that matter will go down.

It has gone down, but you con tinue to say production has increased.
I say the Drainage and Irrigation Boa.rd has not the confidence of the entire community but has the confidence of certain members and the implicit con fidence of Government.

Government has paid tribute to its members; Govern ment has paid tribute to the Chairman.

But let Government take the newspapers a.nd see what the people say about the Drainage and Irrigation Board.

ders why the Colony is not in a state of chaos.

I cannot re.fer to the par ticular page ef the debate.
Govern ment does not worry itself to see that the debates are printed and is not con cerned with what Membe~·s elected by the people say in this Council.

What I said then was this at the meeting of the Council of March 18th, 1942: the in getting "One hon.

Member mentioned the dif ficulty labour at reaping time.
That is due to the fact that them are no dams, no means of transportation last Autumn crop and even at thousands and thousands of bags of padi remained in the ricefields through lack of proper transportation facilities, suitable Ii think that is roads and lack o.f labour.

well known to one hon.

Member of this Council, who is a member of the Com- mittee ........... " That is what I said about the method of transportation etc., and Government does not choose to worry about that.
You have the river and you have a set of boats and launches and so these will do the work.

Bnt I continued to say: these have failed. "

I have listened with considerable interest to the speech delivered over the radio -< and I have also read it in the Press - by the Secretary of the Rice Marketing Board asking growers to plant rice and stating that Government intends tc increase production by 40,000 acres."

I gave a lot of figures.

Today l hear the hon.


mover say 30,000 acres ir.. of new W he th e r the entire Colony or to the Mahaicony Abary scheme I cannot say.

land will that be r efers taken to As regards (ib) I am saying that the Mahaicony-Abary scheme is badly designed and the maintenance rates will be tremendous and, I .am stu·e, the people will not be able to pay.

In 1942 I made a statement- the debates are not printed; it has not been found prac tical for Gove'l:nment the ·debates.
Government is not concerned with what has happened in the past.

This Government does in such a slipshod manner that one wen- its work to print in The COLONIAL TREASURER: I said the acr eage involved in t he places dealt with t he despatches was approximately 30,000 acre·.;;.

The actual figure is 29,337 acres of new land drained and irrigated and also there was acres of land, not new land.
improvement 2,618 in Mr. J ACOB : What I would like to get at is the actual area that is going to be put under rice cult ivation.

I have r ead the despatches (Legisla- 889 G.D. W. F itnds fo1· 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Rice E xpansion Schemes 8D{) tive Council Paper No.

21 of 1944) and I have listened to the hon.

Mover and re.ad all other relevant papers, but I cannot get anything definite.
I have seen a vague statement in the Review of 1943 by His ]~xcellency the Governor, Sir Gordon Lethem, given in May, 1\)-14, and a vaguer stat ement t han that I have never r ead.

On page 12 of that Review this is what is recorded under Rice : t ons '43,079 "The figure for the year is 51,000 tons as against 49,000.
The 1943 Autumn rice crop is 45,000 tons of rice which compares with total acreage r eaped shows a falling off in the r ain grown 'shied' ar eas, especially those of East Demerara, due to unfavourable weather time.

However, higher yields per acre h ave been obtained from the transplanted areas.

for 1942.

The conditions · seeding a t "The experiment and breeding work of the Department of Agriculture has contin ued and several new varieties are undergoin g commercial tests."

it.
it.

llow to term That is what the P r esident of this Council suggests in his written Review as regards the rice industry.

No one reading a statement like Lhat and the many despatches which have been wntt en can come to a conclusion as to I cannot.

what is the act ual amount.

I have r ead t hose despatches.

I MVe seen sentences or r epetition of phrases throughout .
It looks very practically well, a lot of paper, a lot of matter, comprehens i , e i t is called, but I do not I have read know Despat ch No.

203 dated 12th November, 1943, Despatch No.

204 dated '12th November, 1943, Despatch No.

205 dated 12th November, 1943, Despatch No.

206 dated 12th November, 1943, and Despatch No.

207 <lated 12t h November, 1943, all signed by the hon.

the Colonial Secretary who was then Governor's Deputy.
F ive despatches of the same date ref erring to various schemes on rice production in British Guiana , and frankly I do not see where we are head ing to.

I have also read-I am putting these things in detail because probahly I will have to r efer to them later on Despatch No.

212 dated 23rd November, 1943, is signed by Sir Gordon Lethem, Governor, and also Despatch No.

213 \ \ and dated 1943, 26th November, Despatch No.

137 dated 26th July 1:J 014.

Despatch No.


149 dated 4th August, 1944, is signed by Your Excel lency.

Frankly I do not want to say anything more on all th ese despatche'il I have enumerated, but I do wish to r efer to Despatch No.

149.

I notice thn in paragraph 3 Your Excellency state;; .
I, (, " In April, 1942, during the course of discussions on the subject of the Rice Industry generally Sir Frank Stockdale wh ile expressing some doubt that mechan isation would prove practicable and in British Guiana, agreed satisfactory that it was necessary and desirable to try it out and undertook to assist in further ing the proj ect."
It is regrettable that the Comptroller of Development and Welfare should express doubt, and from my small experience in this Colony I know, when ever t hese doubts are expressed on something that is really practicable and something that will prove beneficial, what happens.

Fortunately or un:i' or tu nately up to the present time we are told that these mechanical means are ;;alisfactory, but Sir Frank Stockdale doubts they will p:'ove practicable and I want to say that unless satisfactory.
to this Government in mechanise and modernise "methods that thi;; Colony it will be better Government shut up the Colony and teil Lhc inhabi tan is to get out, as you are not going to get people to continue with antit1uated methods and not keep abreast of the time a·s other parts of Lhe world are doing.

If it is beyond the capacity of Government and all its expert advisers to provide suitable mac11ine1·y and mechanisation for the impl'Oveni!
!nt of our indu·stries, then this Government has failed considerably.

prepared is The PRESIDENT: In point of fact we are applying mechanisation t o the n ice lndustr y.

'l'he COLONIAL TREASURER: In point of fact that is what the motic•n is all about.

The PRESIDENT: It interests me to hear the hon.

Member say we 891 C.D.W.

Funds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

R ice E x pansion S chemes 892 sho(1ld have mechanisation, and here we have a motion on which he is speaking relating to the very subject.
· Mr. J ACOB : l agree partly with that but not wholly.

Unless you attempt to do that you will not be able to compete with the world markets.

The PRESIDENT We are attempting.

Mr. JACOB; When a gentleman in the position of Sir Frank Stockdale ex presses doubt on a matter so obvious, r,ne wonder s what next.

in The COLONIAL TREASURER: I was present at the discussions in 1942 with Sir Frank Stockdale.
He did express doubt in respect of the use of mechanisation the cultivation of rice in this Colony, but he like some of us knew that the technical designs in the experiments in the past had failed.
What he expre·ssecl doubt about was that the right type of machinery would be available for the kind of soil here, that despatch which I now and confess was partly drafted by me I had put that in as it was going to Sir F r ank Stockdale who wou ld welcome it and do all he could to encourage and help us to get m echanical equipment.

T tlo hope the hon.

Member will not press Sir Frank\; doub ts.

in Mr. JACOB: I am thankful for that, to expand assistance, but I do not see the practi cal side of it.
You made emphasis of the fact that if this Colony is to be in a position to secure and maintain the whole of the post-war West Indian markets for rice and to other potent ial m arkets we must take a practical view of things.

That is some thing practical.

What is t his Govern ment doing t o find out what will be the pr oduction in this Colony, what those ma rkets will !·equire, how we are going to meet I have them and when?

listened t o radio talks by the Secretary the Rice Marketing Board.
The 9f Eaat Indian Association dealt at length with that and the Eq.itor of its paper " The Indian Opinion" also dealt with that in the editorial columns.

I smile while saying that because the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer thinks I have a hand in it.

Maybe I have a big hand.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: The hon.

Member has two hands in it.

I JACOB : That does not Mr. matter.

I am in the Association and I have given the facts I have got and which the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer knows.


say the Rice Marketing Board itself is not doing that.

While Your E xcellency brings in the question here, what does one of the Executive Officers do?

He gees, looks around, ccmes back and tells the people "We will not be able to sell the rice as there is not the market.

We have to be afraid of Burma."

I know the reason why, fi nd t hat is wh y I have referred to Sir Frank I am not going to say more Stcckdale.

at the moment.
at the moment.

You suggest we have to secure and to do certain things- maintai11 not only Indian markets but the markets of the Western to Hemisphere.

That aim at.

What practical steps are being taken by this Government to achieve that?

I woulrl c-ertainly like to know that at some future date you will put 11 clear picture before this Council show ing that we are producing so much, we propose to sell so many tons to outside ma,rkets and to eat so much.
Has this trouble to do Governme.nt taken that, an elementary and practical thing done by any business man?

No; pr actically nothing has been done.

something the West the is Coming to Yom- Excellency's other despat ch, No.

150 dated 4th August, 1944, Your Excellency opened by say ing : "I have the honour to refer to the correspondence regarding the purchase of two rice mills for this Colony ending with m y telegram No.

119 of 13th February, 1944. .

. "

And Your Excellency goes on to say in paragraph 3.


893 G.D. W. Funds for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Rice Expansion Schemes 894 "As regards the second mill which it has been decided to obtain from the United Kingdom the information requested in my telegram No.

81 of 2nd February as to the possibility of obtaining a new mill in place of the second hand plant originally offered has not yet been received from the Crown Agents .
.. " advise one with I am ·sorr y to think this Colony is going to embark on the schemes with second hand machinery.

For a new brand project, immense possibilities, you are going to begin to experiment with second haind machinery.

That is certainly not a step in the that no I right direction.

second hand machinery be bought at all.

Your Excellency then goes on to speak about Dryers in the 6th paragraph.
I I was a member of a remember Committee that investigated the desir ab ility of the erection of a central mill in Essequibo, and we had the benefilJ of the advice and personal attention of I have asked for that Mr. Parker.

Report but have not got it.

I think the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer would remember that Mr. Parker came out here, appeared before the Committee and gave valuable advice in respect of the erection of a c_entral ~-ice mill in Essequibo.
We had quite a lot of data and facts, but absolutely no mention Jias been made of that in this Despatch.

Mr. Seaford, your expert adv~ser, was on that Committee and, I t hink, the Chairman was Major Bain Gray, then Acting Colonial Secretary.

That Com mittee ·was appointed in 1937 or 1938.

All those papers have been thrown aside Is that and something new started.

I method adopted for progress, may ask?

I think certainly not.

You have had estimates prepared.


You have had the advice of a practical Manager of Malaya coming out here, sent hy the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

You had on that Committee Mr. Seymour, a practical man.

That Com mittee submitted a Report, but the whole thing is forgotten and you are beginning the present Oficers go away on promotion, you will have another set of Officials and start over again.

That is my experience of this Colony.

You have a scheme, an industry, and eve-rything that n.gain.
When now just tinkering with is possible to work on.

We can grow the best rice that can be produced in any part of the world.

We can grow rice here and compete with Burma very successfully, but this Government is the whole problem.

It does something now, puts it before the people; there is a little flutter and then everything is forgotten and a new set of Officers begins to make a fresh start.
Mr. Parker was empha tic that artificial drying can be success fully used and recommended that a central mill should deal with all the padi.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: I was a member of that Committee myself and Mr. Parker was agaill'st mechanisation.

He came the East and was very muc·h in favour of sun drying.

He was very keen on sun drying.

The hon.

Member is quite wrong in what he said.

from I of that .

is not Mr. JACOB: that Committee and that I am not prepared the hon.
the Colonial to contradict I am certain Treasurer, but what the hon.

Member about was that a member Committee.

May I ask the Clerk of I was a Council to get that Report?

I member of the hon.

remember distinctly Member was not a member of it.

I took a very keen interest in the matter, and Mr. Parker was emphatic that mechanical drying can be successfully however, express doubt, used.

whether a sin·gle mill in Essequibo can handle all the padi produced in Esse quibo.
I know Essequibo, with all due respect to the hon.

Member who repre sents that divi'sion.

Mr. Parker went further to say that the padi from Leguai1 and W akenaam can be trans ported to Essequibo and be handled by I am saying that the central mill.

Mr. Parker's advice can be well taken, and he recommended the erection of central mills.
But my main point is that this Government ;:,eems to have for gotten that and has begun now to look for data and new advice and, what is more, from the U.S.A. That is all I say about it.

895 C.D.W.

F unds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Rice E xpansion Schemes 8 9!3 The PRESIDENT: we are looking for a dvice.

l do not think Mr. JACOB: You have given up your British Adviser and a r e looki ng fo"· an America n Adviser.

Maybe it is a good th ing.


I see in the 8th para graph of Your ExceJiency's despatch of the 4th August you state: "With regard to the proposed visits by experts it is most desirable that an experi enced person should supervise the erection and the initial operations of the mills and the Comptroller has expressed his willing ness to support a free grant for this pur pose .

.

.

. "

That will capture must of us, but certainly it will not catch me.
We may obtain free grants if we are able to manage our own affairs, but we are mis managing our own affairs so as to be continually asking for grants and I will not b e s urprised if we do not get any This free grant idea is thing at all.

something I am definitely again,:;t. I say we do want experts, but my point of view with all due respect to other exper ts is that tnis is a British Colony and we want British experts.

We want them to see our point of view rather than to dictate and advise us.
I am British to the backbone.

I have no other blood ~:unning through my veins.

But I do not know if all of us can say that.

Then there is Your Excellency's other de.spatch, No.

1511 of the 4th August, 1!)44.

This is my m ain point.

The second paragraph refers to the Mahaicony- Abary Scheme.

It says: " ..
It says: " ..

The works include the con;;;truc tion and fencing of dams on the four sides of the area to protect the land from flood ing, and digging and fencing of some 27 miles of main drainage and irrigation canals, the construction of 10 large sluices and the installation of two 80-ton per minute drainage and irrigation pumps as a safeguard against any possibility of flood or of water shortage .... " I have been to Mahaicony twice-- once by b oat and through mud.
From ' my knowledge-and I certainly have ":ome knowledge of local drainage and irrigation co~ditions-if you are going to dig a trench and make a dam to keep off the flood water, you are not going to throw the spoils from the trench on both s ide'S; you will certainly put the spoils on one side and make up a dam.

But w'hat has happened there?

Most of the spoils are t hrown on the wrong side with the r esult th at there will be no darn to keep the flood water out.
That is what I say is bad de·signing, and that h as happened throughout the scheme.

Whenever you want to make a dam and you dig a trench, you certainly are not going to t hrow the spoils on t he wrong side as you want to get a dam to pre vent the water flooding the dam.

As r egards the cross-trenches they have the wrong thing.
They have thrown the dirt on both sides and when the practi cal men talk about it they are told to shut up and it is not Colonial Govern ment money but Imperial Government money and they can spend it as they like.

On-e District Commissioner had the impudence to tell me "Oh, you have nothing to do with it.

I am in charge It is Imperial money and I will of it.

spend it as I like."

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS : May I ask t he hon.

Member to ma ke hims elf clear?


In those cross-trenches the• earth is thrown up on both sides.

The hon.

Member has not made himself clear.

Mr. JACOB: I think I made myself quite clear.

Certain places r equire the earth to be thrown on one side only.

People have complained to me and have taken me iher e an d sh own me.

If you want to employ mechanical meam; in your cultiva t ion you must certainly have dams so as to transport your tractors.

If the hon.
If the hon.

Member does not under stand what I am saying I will ask him to go back and study t he whole ques tion.

H e is one of Government's advis ers .

H e is the only Member of this Council connected with those people who have ibuilt up t he industry, and is the only Member there to advise Govern ment on t he work of the people who know what they a re talking about.

One man who had a tractor there wrote a letter complaining that his tractor wa11 897 C.D.W.

Fund{] for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.


Rice Expansion ·Schemes 89d being ruined because of some spiteful work by people there.

I referred him to the hon.

Member for Ea:atern Demerara (Mr. Humphrys) who said he could not see him, and I told him to see whom he liked.

Representatives of some dis• tricts will not listen to these people.

My friend does not know and does not know where find out.

He sits listens to everything and says down, it trouble to find out and I do so without any hope of reward.
Government cannot accuse me of that.

take the r ight.

I is all to The PRESIDENT: Are you sure you are not overstating the case?

Mr. JACOB : I am not.

A man gets disgusted and loses his money, labour and machinery.

That is the reason why the Mahaicony area has not produced the rice it should.

There must be proper dams and trenches.

The whole design of the scheme wa·s bad and at least 50 per cent.

of the money has been mis-spent.


I would like to make other quotations :t'rom page 14 of Your Excellency's despatch No.

151 of August 4, but it may be said that I am repeat ing myself.

In paragraph 9, however, Your Excellency make·s this point :- "With accepted average yields, this means an additional 10,000 tons of rice or an increase of nearly 50 per cent.

on the Colony's present exportable surplus:" Your Excellency was careful to put the Colony's exportable surplus at 20,000 tona.
I have been looking at the reports of the Rice Marketing Board, and 1,000 tons do make some difference.

The report of the Board for the period 1st October, 1941, to 31st March, 1942, gives no figures because the exportable sur plus was less than -10,000 tons.

The Board refused to give the figures .

For the period April to September, 1942, the quantity of rice exported was note~ as exports during the period 1st Octo ber, 1941, to 30th September, 1942- 18,863 tons.
The following report for the period 1st April, 1943, to September the quantity 30, 1943, shows exported was 18,313 tons.

Last year, from January to December, the exports as given in the Commercial Review, that [: G. The previous year were 17,180 tons.

they were 22,479 tons.

The quantity exported up to August thi-a year is 14,878 tons, as agaiu-st 11,000 during the cor It does responding period last year.

appear that the quantity exported this year will be over 20,000 tons.
Government has recei vetl thousand,; of dollars from the Imperial Govern ment on the specific condition that this Colony should supply the West Indian market with rice.

Before those sums of money were fort hcoming we were practically supplying all the British West Indian Islands and the French ~Vest Indies with ric:e. Today we are unable to supply Trinidad alone.

Ar e those facts not known to t he Colonial Treasurer who is an expert in twisting figure·"?
Am I to repeat those facts every time I speak on rice, and to have him contradicting me every time?

Those are Government's methods, and so long as Government continues so long will I act as I am.

Government has not made good use of this money which ha:s been given to us, and while I regret to say it I think the Secretary of State should ask Government to give an account and withhold further grants until that has been done.
I think the Secretary of State should send out two experienced men to look after this expenditure.

The local people have failed completely.

Some people think that some of them are a menace to the expansion of the rice industry.

Most people feel that those who are advising Government on the expansion of the industry are a menace to the industry.

That is definitely the opinion of the East Indian Association and that opinion has been expressed ver9 clearly in an editorial in itil small paper.
Who is the Government?

I realize that a countr y gets the Government it deserves.

British Guiana has got the Government it deserves, but l can assure you that some of us are beginning to think that it is regrettable that we are in British Guiana.

I have laboured here for 30 odd years, and I fee1 that I should leave this country now.

This country has been very kind to me in very many ways but I do not think it is 899 C.D.W.

Funds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Rice E xpansion Schemes !


)00 going to be kind to me in the future.

I think it is grossly mismanaged by people who are birds of pas·sage-some people say " birds of prey".

The rice industry has been sacrificed for many things.

We are talking about rice only.

I do not know whether these sums are to be expended on r ice alone.

In order to have ·successful rice cultivation there must be some complimentary industry cattle, ground provisions, poultry, pigs and so on.

What is being done in those directions?


What has happened to the Mahaicony Scheme?

The designers started to remove the cattle a distance of 50 miles from the a rea where they were.

Ca n an ordinary man live on rice cultivat ion alone?

Can Georgetown do without the milk that it receives from the Mahaicony district ?

After long protest and a good deal of dislocation tbe the designers agreed to permit people the to keep their cattle within area.
A lot of harm has been done already but it did not matter to them.

The people in that district have stated in the past, and with a good deal of truth and just ification, that su,1·plus water from t he Lamaha · conservancy was let loose to flood the Abary area.

That has happened over a·nd over again and with regularity during the last 10 Is Government not aware of the years.

fact that Barclays Bank established a branch at Mahaica when rice wa·s boom ing in that area?
The rice industry was becoming too prosperous in that area, and the result was constant flood ing, cattle dying and rice mills _ being flooded out.

The r eault is that now we have so much less rice being produced in that area, and Government is now I that area.

improve attempting to have seen the estimate.

I read those papers until one o'clock t his morning.

On page 16 of You1· Excellency's despatches, in the memorandum describ ing.
each item in the scheme with the estimated costs, I find under item (e) -"Internal Transport"_provision for lorries at $3,000 each, 2 jeeps at 6 $1,000 each, and levelling dams $2.000.

What are the lorries going t o do?

Are they going to run on the public road only, or will they lo~ used to transport the padi from the fields?

Are they going to be provided with dams during the heavy rainfall?

If those concerned do not expect heavy r ainfall when the r ice is being reaped they have no fore sight.
My attention has been drawn to the fact that there is provision for a tug.

That is not good enough to transport padi from 12,000 acres of land between Mahaica and Abary.

If Government is going to erect a central rice mill it must plan.

for the future.

There must In thi's entire be proper internal roads.

Colony we are in a chaotic state because we have no regular and pr oper means of transport-road, rail or water.
To visit my constituency I have t o sit on a steamer, spending 22 hours each way, and that wonderful facility is only available to me once a fortnight.

Only a person in very good health can travel on the lorries on the Bartica-Potaro road.

Government must r evise its plans for the Mahaicony scheme and provide more money for the construction of dams.

There must be a dam alongside t he cr eek.


Certain people on the Government 'side have told the people that they will not see a dam there-why should there be a dam when launches will be provided for their transport?

Government has ·blundered in the first instance.

The hon.

Member for Geo1·ge town Central (Mr. Percy C. Wight) has said that Government is blundering even now.

My last visit to the district was over a year ago.

I went there in 1942 and 1943, and.


I discussed the m atter with someone from ther e a few weeks ago.

Whilst it is true t hat a good rice crop is being r eaped at the moment the~·e are only about 3,000 acres under cultivation.

Government may say that it cannot get labour.

There are labour advisers now on the Execut ive Council and in other places.

I certainly "think that is that the .

indictment unwilling is certainly not correct.


If men are t o be paid 3/- per day and women 1/6 Government will certainly not get them to work.

It is GoverlJment's policy to ~nderpay anti to work labour 901 G.D. W. Funds for lS OCTOBER, 1944.

R -ice Expan sion S chemes 902 expect people to work just because it is Government.

Government will not get people to co-operate in that way.

I promised to speak very frankly.

I have attempted to do so · and I have not overstated my case.
I have been accused of doing that over and over again.

I am of the opinion that the Mahaicony scheme is very bad.

Gov ernment should discontinue its present methods and get the people whom it is pretending to serve, and whose welfare it pretends to have at heart, to co-ope-r ate, but its officers are bullying them.

The time for that sort of thing is past.

Government will certainly not get people to work for even 4/ - per day.
I have been looking into the cost of living figures and I have r ead the report of the radio interview with the School Medical Officer in which he said that it takes about $2 per week to feed a child properly.

Female workers employed by Government do not get $2 per week, and some of them have children.

rearing and In its scheme Government must not the forget cattle production of vegetables.

At the present time there is a definite shortage of cattle and fresh meat.
It is t rue that there is a surplus of .ground provisions, and that we are exporting some of it.

I heard over the radio the other day that it is not that Briti'sh Guiana is expor ting, it i's that British Guiana is able to supply local requirements and I see the export at the same time.

Publicity Officer present.

I advise him to look at the export figures for previ ous years.

The PRESIDENT: ought to keep to the motion.

I think you Mr. JACOB: I think I .


am in order becatrse, as I said, rice, cattle- The PRESIDENT : Don't let us go back to local food production.

Mr. JACOB: Years ago we had sufficient cattle and ground provisions to supply the Colol}y's requireP1e11ts a,nd is attempting export, but during the last few years we have not been able to export , and there is a definite shortage of beef.

While Government to increase the production of rice it must not decrease or discourage the produc- .
tion of other things, including cattle.

That is definitely what happened at Mahaicony and Mahaica.

Without cattle there can be no proper rice culti vation.

The farmers must have oxen to plough and pull their boats out at certain t imes.

represent friends who the Corentyne and We are grateful for these sums of money but half of it has been mis ·spent.

I made a note on the motion to the effect that 50 per cent.

of the $275,000 has not been beneficially spent on the Mahaicony-Abary scheme.

My other hon.
My other hon.

district s will probably say something the West about Coast of Berbice, and t he hon.

Member for Western Essequibo (Mr. C. V. Wight) will certainly tell us something about the Anna Regina r ice mill which I think has not been properly designed in t he first instance, and the idea of producing white rice has proved a failure.
Maybe Government did not have the best advice, and while it is attempting to do something about mill ing in Essequibo the local millers are able to compete against the Government · mill and are succeeding to a very large local the result extent, with engineer h ad t o re0 arrange the plan at Anna Regina.
to be called that a in I have nothing more to say at this stage and I t rust that a report of this debate will be sent to the Secretary of State for the Colonies who should at least ·see the other point of view-that the sums of money being given to us are not being properly s pent.
I should cer tainly like to send a copy of the official record t o some of my friends in England who are asking all t he time that money be sent, and it may be well to tell them that although they give us money- t4ey sh ould send us e~perts to 903 C.D.

W. F unds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Rice Expansion Schernes 904 see how it is spent.

I am serious on the point that this money is not being properly spent.
I could give facts to show that what has happened in the recent case hi happening at the present I time, but it would lead us nowhere.

am only advising caution, proper super v1s10n these and administration of funds, and I think that experts should come out to advise as to the planning and the completion of the·ae schemes.

Mr. JACKSON : There is one thing the hon.

Member for North Western District (Mr. Jacob) should be made to unsay at this stage.
He said that the Colonial Treasurer was not a member of the Essequibo Coast Rice Committee.

Perhaps he may be asked to read the signatures at the end of that report.

Mr. JACOB: I am sorry; my It is memory failed me.

(laughter).

not a laughing rnatter.

The PRESIDENT: That is a matter of opinion, too.

I asked for Mr. JACOB: that document.

The Committee was appointed in April, '1938.

I asked for the docu ment over the telephone this morning.
Two different documents were laid on the table and I am sorry that I said the Treasurer was not a member of the Committee.

I find that he was.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: 1 can also tell the hon.

Member that I drafted the ,report.

Mr. JACOB: I am not surprised.

I had a distinct recollection that Major Bain Gray was on the Committee.

I now that he was originally see appointed.

Mr. KING: I have listened with great interest to what has been said by the hon.
Member for North Wes tern District (Mr. Jacob), and while I am going to give him credit for some knowledge o.f the cultivation of rice I for not could cultivation.

accept cannot give him credit for the amount of knowledge he has endeavoured to credit himself with as regards the laying out of drains and canals on lands I rice suitable certainly his opinion against the opinion of so highly respected a member of this community with the best knowledge at his disposal as Mr. F. J. Seaford.
Fortunately for me I had an opportunity quite recently of paying a vi·sit to the Mahaicony-Abary Rice Expansion Scheme, and I certainly would advise every Member of this Council and ever y person who is inter ested in the growing of rice in this Colony to go there and see for himself what has been done in the hope of making the Rice Industry one which will be of some use and help to thi'a Colony.
For that reports hearing two or three years I have been the Rice Marketing Board and the Rice Expansion Committee were hoping to put under cultivation a consider able area of land in the Mahaicony-Abary district.

Within the last few months I had heard that they had ploughed and planted in the vicinity of 2,500 acres.
To show the interest I took in the matter, I have ·several times asked for an expression of opinion as to how the rice was growing and what was happen ing, and I was told that everything was going well.

I therefore felt that this was an opport unity for the Colony to prove that mechanical cult ivation and reaping of rice was something that had come to stay.

When I wa·s asked by the hon.


the Colonial Treasurer a few weeks ago if I cared to go and see the scheme, I promptly accepted the sug gestion, and to say that I was amazed and astounded at what is expressing feebly what has happened in that area.

.

In the fi.rst place I was amazed at the enormous area which had been cultivated and planted.

I was equally astounded at the work that had been done before cultivation could take place.
Before I go further I would like to pay tribute to tho·se who bad been responsible, i!

not, entirely at saw I 905 G.D. W .

Funds for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Rice Expa,nsion Schenies H06 least in_ a very great measure, for the success of the scheme, because I am quite certain it will be a success even in a larger area.

in to rendered that the hon.

the work and The hon.

the Colonial Treasurer has this morning,.paid tribute to the work, unstinted and unpaid for, that the hon.
Mr. Seaford has this ·scheme in the interest of the Colony.

1 know the Colonial Treasurer is not one who desires or hopes for praise for anything he does i n the interest of the Colony, but I feel that great as the that Mr. the assistance help and Seaford has rendered to this industry, they are not greater ·what than has been clor:e the same way or in a different manner by the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer.


We are fortunate in t his Colony in having in the Govern ment Service alongside the Governor where he can help and assist Govern ment in a way that one outside will not be able to do a man who is capable of taking charge of what I m ay term a commercial proposition such a.s the Rice Marketing Boai·d and the scheme of rice growing in the Mahaicony-Abary area.
the Colonial Treasurer of this Colony, I am glad to in think that we have his services those is that he keenly interested in the Rice Indm,try.

For about eighteen months while I was a member of the Rice Marketing Board I realized the amount of thought and amount of care he took in handling the I know it must affairs uf that Board.

have occupied a considerable amount of his time.


This expansion of the Rice Industry has occupied even more of his time, and it su rpri'ses me to think how he does all he does within the short space of twenty-four hours a day.

I conside~· myself a busy man and most of us do, but I certainly will not attempt to do the amount of work for which Mr. McDavid will get nothing but thanks and the gppreciation of his country and which he does outside his official duties.
Associated with him he has one who is perhaps equally as keen in the development of the Rice Industry and a very capable officer whom I have In tne Seer~- lPwwn foi; many years.

In Mr. McDavid, .respects.

I know ~ in amount tary of the Rice Marketing Board this Colony is lucky in having a man of the type of Mr. Gadd.

This Colony owes him a debt of gratitude.


There t he i's not t he slightest doubt that remuneration paid him for his services is insufficient as recompense for what the Colony owes him for the assistance he has given to the Rice Industry in this Colony.

Another Officer to whom I desire to pay tribute, who I under stand and from personal knowledge has taken a very keen interest and done a t~·emendous this Rice Expansion Scheme of the Mahaicony Abary area, is Mr. Bell of the Agricul tural Department.
that without the keenness and enthu-.siasm of those four gentlemen whom I have named, this experiment would not have I desire been the success it has been.

from my seat to in say on my behalf and on behalf of those I represent- I suppose others will express their opinion-we are g,rateful to those gentlemen for what they have done.
I am sure when they look back in later years when the Rice Industry is on a firm and solid footing, they will have the satisfaction of knowing that but for their foresight, enthusiasm and courage the Rice Industry would not have come t o anything.

this Council feel sure I J. am satisfied, and have said so for a few years, that saturation point so fa,.

r,s the growing and reaping of rice has been reached in so far as manual I do not believe labour is concerned.
that this Colony can expand the Rice Industry to any greater extent than it is now expanded except by mechanical means of cultivation and tillage.

That is th e only hope I have that the Rice Ind ustry will be something of which thi's Colony will be proud and which will be a great financial asset in the years to come.
It has been doubted, I know, for years in this Colony by many persons who l1ad a right through expr ess to their their opinion, and the statement reading made by Sir Frank Stockdale to which the hon.

Member for North-Western District referred expre·ssing the same doul;Jt, as to mechanical cultivation in experience 907 C.D.W.

Funds .for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

R'ice E x pansion S chem es 903 in the type of this Colony in yea1·s gone by is so far as Rice It might be difficult and it concerned.
is feared that it might not be success ful.

The only doubt I personally had was that the1·e might be difficulty in so far as the mechanical cultivation of rice and that was in the reapi ng of rice by mechanical means.

I know a certain type of rice that grows on the estate which I partly control, Mary ville, Leguan, which does not stand up.
Through the efforts of the Agricultural Department they have produced a rice which bears so heavily that the -stalks cannot hold the amount of padi on each par ticular stalk.

That was one difficulty I feared in so far as mechanical cultivation was concerned.

But rice planted in the Mahaicony-Abary area, whether it is due to the particular type or to the type of soil there I cannot say, stands up and not the slightest diffi culty is experienced by the reapers in I was surprised and exceed cutting.
In the ingly gratified to see that.

course the conversation with Director of Agriculture, who was also one of the party, I asked him if he felt that there would be any difficulty in other reaped rice mechanically, and from what I under stand him t o say they are at present working in the Botanic Gardens and by the Rice Expert on a type of rice which, i n the opinion of the Director so far as can be seen now, is probably better than any type we have now and which will stand up.
But so long as that difficulty is overcome I have not the ·.slightest doubt that this Colony can plant and reap r ice mechanicaJly.

It will, I know, be difficult for the small man to have h is rice pla nted and reaped by mechanical means at first until there is · some means of assisting him with communal ploughs · and threshers.
types of being of Until the difficulty ia overcome whereby the small man Who now plants his niece of land with rice having what is known as meres to protect the land and keep the water in, until such means are devised by which rice can be· grown by artificial help there will, I admit, be t hat difficulty in so far as the small or m an is concerned.
I personally do not think that is going to st and in the way of the small man having his land ploughed reaped mechanically, because he will very soon realise that the mechanical cult ivation of land for rice and the mechanical reaping of rice are going to reduce the cost consider ably, and that is one fear, I think.

It will be impossible for this Colony t o compete in the ,vorld market of rice, .
unless we can the cost of production and bring the rice down t o a level with other countries which undoubtedly will compete with us in years t o come.

I have some idea as to the cost of cultivating an acre, but very little idea as to the cost of reaping or threshing an acre of rice.

I am how ever quite certain, it will be very much less than in the somewhat tedious and expensive met hod of and It will be l'tr eshil:g by hand or bull.

it infinitely more expensive than if is done mechanically.
reaping reduce is every .

Not only do In the speech made by the hon.

Member for North-Western Distl'ict ther e wer e parts that were cer tainly refreshing and parts which were most depressing and parts quite unneces sary.

But I was exceedingly glad t o hear him make the statement in this Council that he has the firm and com plete conviction that there hope of this Colony becoming a rice producing cotmtry.
I !hope that but, as Your Excellency has said in your despatch to the Secr eta,:y of State which was i:·eferred to by the hon.

Member, to supply the West Indies and t his part of the world with rice.

I hope when the time comes we will be able to go further afield and get better and more advantageous markets for our r ice because, as stated by t he hon.

Member and as I have been always told, the rice of this Colony is as good as any other rice in t he world and better than most.
There is no better r ice g-rown in the world than the r ice in British Guiana, and as soon as the realizes that, I am quite sure, world to us will be /mar kets now closed 909 C.D.W.

F unds for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Rice Exvansion Schemes 910 to us when we are able rice feel sure hon.

Members will to cpened If it means a supply their needs.
matter of spending a million, or two million, or five million dollars, whethe .. • obtained by free grant or loan frc•m the I mperial Government 0-1· from ibe assets of the Colony itself, to establish a rice industry in this Colony to such a size as I imagine, then I feel it will be money well spent.

Money does not matter because we will get it back in course of time.
That is why I feel we do owe a debt of gratitude to those gen-· tlemen I referred to fo r their foresight and courage in going on with thi~ matte:r. Last year I heard the opinion expressed that it was madness, as mechanical cultivation of rice had been tried and had failed.

They felt it was just a waste of money, a wild gamble.

I never subscribed to that idea, ancl I was glad when I had the opportunity a few days ago to see what has been in the mechanical and can be done this Colony.
cultivation of I tak•l it.

They will my advice and to see wha'- be surprised as being is hop~ done is, if they can get the additional mechanical equipment necessary, that another 3,000 acres will be put under It is there for the purpose of rice.

growing rice.

The area I saw there ·was enormous, and I feel sure it will make a tremendous difference on the amount of rice at present produced ii: the Colony.
After all, if we double our production in the Colony today which will be a great help, it will be nothing to the amount of rice that is requireJ by this part of the world which we can deal with.

100,000 tons or lZ0.,000 tons, or 150,000 tons of rice can easily be sold so long as we can get the differ the ent other markets which before war were barred against us to a great extent.

The only way to do that is to reduce the cost and make the price of our rice reasonable with other markets of the world.
see I was there.

The in There is much more I can say on this subject because it is an industry into channels other in which I have been interested for many years and one in which I have been actively engaged.

There is no need for me to say much more on this particular subject because I am certain that even in spite of the remarks made by the hon.

Membe·r, who spoke befor e me, that he is satisfied some of this 11!
'.oney had been wasted every Member of this Council will g ive his support to the motion which has been moved by the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer and that we will express our appreciation and our thanks to the Imperial Gov ernment for the grants so generously made to help us foster and expand the Rice Industry of the Colon.y.
I am not able to say whether the money has been wasted or stolen, but I will be very much surprised to learn that in the expenditure of nearly $300,000 some of it is not wasted and some of it has, not the gone right ones.

That is ver y natural.

It is very difficult to control the expendi ture of a large sum of money in an area far r emoved from direct control.

Some of it will be lost or some of it get away without obtaining some return.
But I am quite certain that that the money is under t he control of the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer and those who I know are interested in the project up there, and that very little of it has been wasted and very little has been stolen.

The superv1s1on I saw there is pretty sound and I will say this : The laboua·ers I saw there are not many, but they wer e certainly working hard.
I admit it is possible to put on that show for our benefit, but the results will show whether or not the labourers are working as hard It i s quite easy to as they should.

check up the retur ns.

I · again desire to associate myself with the motion and to express to Government our grate ful appreciation of what is being done.
than Mr. LEE: I did not expect to say anything on this motion because I felt this Government should always be to the Imperial Government grateful receives, but for any grant it '911 G.D. W. Funds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Rice Expansion Schemes 91~ -: those I would thing to the expansion of like one i.s there responsible to point out for rice produc tion.
Whilst they are experimenting with mechanical means and so reduce the cost of production, they are not carrying that to the peasant farmers so as to teach them that mechanicai means of cultivation and reaping w}]l be a saving to them.

For the last Autunm crop they allowed the threshers to go to Essequibo and the proprietors who got the benefit of thei-r use were great in their praise for the reduction of cost as well as of the number of labour ers employed which resulted.
I would ask if Government can see its way to to the constituency send a thresher which I represent for the·· reaping of the crop there, so as to educate them in its use.

Mr. FERREIRA: To a point of correction !

Last year the Grow More Food Committee paid the expenses of the farmers in various parts of Berbice to go to Mahaica and see the th1·eshers at work.
I think I am correct in say ing that some time later it was pro posed to have demonstrations for Bmall farmers and efforts weo:·e made to get the threshers and cutters to work on a communal basis among them.

Mr. LEE: I am glad to hear that, but no effort was made in that regard in respect of my constituency.
What Quite I would like to say is this: recently the rice-farmers the,re knowing that Governme,nt had brought rlown a thresher-reaper asked me wheth~r I could not approach the Committee in I approacherl order to obtain its use.

the person in charge of it as t he area planted was an extensive one, and he told me that it could not be rented nor lent because it would be required by Government for reaping.
At the time I made the request the experiment in the Mahaicony-Abary area was not quite ready for reaping.

I feel Govern ment should take eve•ry opportunity to try it out on the plots of peasant farm I know there are rumours that ers.

the money has been mis-spent.

Facts have been shown and efforts made to prove them, but I am not satisfied and will not say anything more.
I feel it to is my duty to warn Government exercise caution the in money that is spent in the digging of trenches and in respect of the manner in which they are dug.

If Govern ment takes notice of what we say, some of the money will not be mis-sp~nt.

'l'his motion I heartily support and do ask Government if it can to get more in order to expand the rice praluction to do so and we will gladly welcome it.

respect of The PRESIDENT: I expect sP-v e1·al other members would like to speak en the motion.
If it is convenient I suggest that we meet at 12 o'clock tomorrow afternoon and then meet in I Finance Committee propose to invite the hon.

Mr.

Wool ford, the hon.

Mr. Critchlow, the hon.

Mr. de Aguiar and the hon.

Mr. Fer reira t o serve on a Select Committee to conside,r the motion which was pre viously passed.

afterwards.

M:1·.

EDUN: of Ministers included.

I was thinking if two be Religion cannot The PRESIDENT: I am afraid not.

It is a Select Committee of the Council.


The Council adjourned to 2 o'clock the following afternoon.

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