Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698068448499.pdf (Guyana)
1,019 Members Present LtGISLA'fIVE CoVNCIL Drainage and.

Irrigation 1,020, LEGISLATIV6 · �OUNGIL South) The Hon.

J. Carter (Georgetown FRIDAY) 10TH NOVEMBER, 1950 The Hon.

L.A. Luckhoo (Nominated), The Hon.

F. E. Morrish (Nominated).

The Clerk read prayers.

The Council met at 2:30 p.m., His.

Excellency the Governor, Woolley, K.C:M.G., O.B.E., M.C., President, in the Chair.

Sir Charles !

PRESENT: The President, Governor, K.C.M.G., Sir Charles M.C.

O.B.E., His Excellency the Woolley.


Campbell The Hon.

the Colonial Secretary, Mr. J.Gutch, 0.B.E.

NEW CONSTITUTION.

(Mr. Wight) at the last meet­ that his I r,ecollect TRINIDAD'S to the Mr. ROTH: Sir, with reference remarks of the hon.

Member .for Western Essequibo ing .of the Council, colleague, Berbice Trinidad tive Council Constitution, There is, however, .

utes that he also spoke.

of that island under its new als,o spoke on the matter.

no record in the min- the hon.


Member for Western for the opening of the Legisla­ · (Mr. Peters) who also went to The Hon.

the Attorney-General, Mr. F.W, Holder, K.C.

The PRESIDENT: Yes, I agree with the hon.

Member that that should be recorded.

acC'ordingly.

The minutes will be amended The Hon.

the Financial y Secretar and Treasurer, C.M .G., C .

B .

E. Mr. E .

F .

McDavid, The Hon.

Dr. J.

B. Singh, O.B.E, (Demerara-Essequib o).


of the meeting The minutes on Thursday, as printed and circulat�d, amended as under and thereafter confirmed:- the 9th ,of November, held were The Hon.

T. _Lee (Ess•equibo River).

The Hon.

W. J. Raatgever (Nomi­ an ted).

The Hon.

V. ·Roth, (Nominated).

Under the heading "Opening of the Legislative Council of-Trinidad under the new Constitution'\ lowing words were added - the fol­ "Mr. Peters associated the remarks of Dr.

Singh."

himself with The Hon.


G. A. C. Farnum, O.B.E, ORDER OF THE DAY.

(N omin.a ted).

DRAINAGE AND IRRIGATION A The Hon.

D. P. Debidin (Eastern COLONIAL QUESTION.

• Demerara).

"!rara River) The Hon.

Capt J.

B. Coghlan (Dem- The Hon.

Dr. C. Jagan (Central Demerara) .

The Hon.

A. T. Peters (Western Berbice) .

The Hon.

W. A. Phang (North Western District) .

The Hon.

G. H. Smellie (Nominated).


The Council the following resumed the debate on motion by Mr. DEBIDIN: "WHEREAS British Guiana is country and an agricultural to the Coastal essentially this pertains .

chiefly Belt of the Colony which is.

approxi- mately 6' bel_ow sea level; AND WHEREAS it should be the and to.
offset this natural dis­ of the,Coastal Belt because:- Colony's obligation ability complete res•ponsibility (a)The entire population must benefit from the agricultural directly or indirectly devel-· 1,021 Drainage and Irrigation-10 · NovEMBER, 1950.

Colonial Question 1,022 opment of the Coastal and an incr,eased ,of food comprising milk.

poultry, Belt production of meat, eggs, etc.

; production by bet­ (b)Increased will tend to ter drainage lessen the cost •Of living.
of the entire population (c)It is to the interest of the a strong Co1ony to establish and prosiperous .and ; peasantry; (d)Encouragement is vitally needed for the excess and unemployed turn to population the land for a living: to The PRESIDENT: I think there was an amendment when we adjourned, amendment, an amendment Demerara River (Capt.

Coghlan).

because it was not exactly by the hon.

Member for before the Council or a pr,oposed Capt.


COGHLAN: The amendment will read: Council regarding "BE IT RESOLVED that this drain­ works and sea defence in this Colonv as a except such -works question to sugar plantations Honourable age, irrigation and maintenance Colonial as relate the Gov­ mends that His Excellency to ascer­ ernor aoooint in providing tain the -cost involved such services including maintenance."
from Colony funds - and expenditure a Committee capital recom­ AND \VHEREAS the present is to establish Author­ one for La,cal practice ities if there 1s not already the collection ,of Drainage Eastern Ma�1aicony this becomes s0 burdensome that it is uneconomic farmers to cultivate expenses ,Of maintenance and Irrigation, e.g., the Dis,trict - and upon· the for them their lands; ·AND WHEREAS in most of the ar,e in areas of the Golonv farmers and constan't a state of distraction over the huge sense of frustration year loss.
in crops which they sustain after year and the added burden .of having to pay high rates and taxes; ANP WHEREAS in many cases are comoelled farmers.
their lands or s011 out completely because of these difficulties mounting cost of living; to abandon and AND WHEREAS Sugar Plan ta­ tions in the Colony undertake their for own drainage sugar estates and irrigation ; BE IT RESOLVED that this Council regarding the recom­ question that the Govern­ Honourable matter as a Colonial mend for aq:option ment of the Colony meet all expenses for the carrying Irrigation the miaintenanc except drainage relate to sugar plantations Colony; out of Drainage, Works and ; save and and irr,igation as in the and Sea Defence e thereof The PRESIDENT: As I said yester­ day, I do not think this is in the form of it a.n amendment is a substitu tion for the original motion.
of the original motion; The reason for it meets with the of the Council.

Capt.

COGHLAN: Quite so, Sir.

If you give me time I would work it into the motion, provided approval it is that I do-not think it would be right to ask the Members o:f this Council knowing what vote on a motion without would be inv,olved.

There is expenditure Engineer, a plan by the Consulting already of Mr. Hutchins-On, and it $150 million would hardly be fair to expect this.
G,oun­ cil to vote on this motion without know­ what is involved, ing what expenditure it is for, and for whose benefit.

That is the object of my amendment.

for an ,expenditure on main drainage, to The PRESIDENT: In effect what the hon.

Member says is that the matter by a Select should be examined of tee - that the financial the motion shou1d be examined.

Commit­ implications Capt.

COGHLAN: Yes, Sir.

In the motion it is stated: AND BE IT FURTHER RE­ Couri­ SOLVED that this.
Honourable cil adopting thereof take recommend that Government a more immediate a'nd irrigation effective policy in the Colony than at present."

steps to ensure.

drainage the principle "A.nd Whereas in most of the ar·e in a of the Colonv farmers areas.
state of distraction ,of frustration crops which they year and added burden of having to pgy high rates and taxes; -and oonstant over the huge loss in sustain sense year after i,023 Drainage and Irrigation-LEGI�LATIVE "And Whereas in many cases to abandon farmers are compelled their lands or sell ,out completely because of these difficulties mounting cost of living.

;" and As agains� that I have rdocuments within the last 10 or 15 years.
before me which prove that farmers have bought lands on the West Bank of the Demerara River at from $10 to $20 per acre, and according to the Deeds Regis­ try those lands are now being sold at $298, $308 and ·up to $400 per acre.

That shows that the value of land has increased appreciably So that if the value of land has increased by between 300 and 500 per cent.

it is hardly likely that the people who are selling because they cannot make a living out of it.
On the contrary, they are selling to other people who, even though they are paying 400 per cent.

more, believe that they can make a living out of it.

.out their lands are doing so solely The motion proposes.

they look after their' because The sugar estate proprietors.

to exclude the if the sugar estate proprie­ the North drainage and taxes community.

sugar estates · own drainage.


do not need any champion in me, but it would be very difficult to exclude them when they are also paying r'ates for the upkeep of the general Furthermore, tors.

sold out their lands at any time, as people then they might do, to independent those people would not then have to pay to rates on those lands according the motion.

For instance, Pouder'oyen to cost $62,000 at present, to cost $20,000.

was estimated a new estimate is submitted been increased rates of wages.
If $62,000 the people have already agreed to pay $4.18 per acre for maintenance and in vjew of the fact that the value of the land has gone up to such an appre­ ciable extent they would be doing well to was· con- get the $62,000, by the C.D.

& W. Fund s-ome sh� .

tributed years ago.

Had that money been used for intended the work could have the purpose but now the been done for that $25,000, So that has gone up to $62,000.
estimate the longer the work is delayed the more it is going_ scheme is supposed but in 1944 it Every time the sum has on account of the high of which $25,416 is to be spent to cost.

charges, As I have said, it would hardly be in view Question i,024 CotlNCIL.'.

;olonfol right that all drainage and irrigation question should ·be made a colonial of th.e fact that the farmers are making a good living out of the land in spite of floods now and again.
We do not have floods every year, and viewing the position as.

a whole I say that they do make a good living out of the land.

In the case of the with respect to which I Canals Folder·, received a letter a fe.w days.

ago, it is estimate to look aft-er their drainage, people in that district pay by way of rates half of whatever amount is spent if Government undertake the work.

The land is at present is provided Government thev would be able to re.pay by-means of rates.
d that it would require $200,00-0 of very little use, but if drainage would be willing .would and the to I feel that it would be very difficult a colonial trenches, f.or people I do not know where the money :fli.gures.

as to the cost of and irrigation If Government is, asked to dig for' a Select Committee to supply anything like reliable making drainage question.

and irrigation drainage who would just sit down and r·eap the ben�fits would be found to do so.

The r,evenue the Colony is about $20 million.


I think it would require at least three or four times that sum for maintenance alone of what is, asked for in the motion.

The revenue of the Colony would not cover one quarter taking.

That is my humble opinion, and I would be very glad if the mover of the motion would endeavour figure,;; as to the probable is asking us .

.to vote for.
.to vote for.

to supply some cost of what :he of the cost of such an under­ of Mr. LEE1:I When · I seconded rthe of certain in respect involved, motion I thought of the issues· and that if we could get figures from a Committee areas we would be able to get some idea of the commitment s involved.

to find out exactly we have received and Welfare Organization, report of Sir Hubert Rance on Dev•elop­ ment and Welfare in the West Indies, 1947-49.
In paragrap'h states: from the Development and I read the what sums of money Last night I tried 30 the report "30.

The chief interest and ir'rigation drainage are concerned is Caribbean Colonies.

centred in British Guiana.

Loans and where of the British 1•,025 Drainage and Irrigation--10 'No.vEMBER, l!:')50.

Colonvai Question 1,026 correct.

states: irr•igation to get help from the U.S.A. through E.C.A.
have been 5268,545 grants tot.alling devoted to thre� drainage...,and Coast, schemes on the Corentyne designed to expand rice productio n and , ,and on the Scheme for milling drainage in the Mahaicony­ improving All these Sc·hemes.

had Abary dis.tr'ict.

at the -e:r.id of 1949."

been completed faciltiie§ The PRESIDENT: Hon.

Members, I on this.

0 is "31.

A become a Colonial the waters.

to divert Paragraph The hon.

Mover has.


taken free grant and loan totalling district , but Torani Canal, of the motion.

in it.

I am quit'.

: I do not think that · statement 31 of the report d for the time being of techni­ examin'ation The Canal ,will be 18 miles.

have been-made in respect of £915,080 the.


major· drainage and irrigation scheme in the Corentyne work on the prn,jected which forms part of the scheme, has been suspende a further pending cal matter's.. long and is destined of the Berbice �iver.

which flows through an area unsuitable tion, but has a p,lentifuf plus.

water at all s:easons, River district, area, bv�t subject think1 I should :Say something matter.

There ar'e t:wo parts.

of this motion.


The first part, as I understan d it, is that drainage and irrigation through­ out the Colony •should question.

some objection to criticisms.

made in the Council as.

to the intention and what was involved sur·e in my own mind what he thinks is to in it.

If his motion is, limited involved payments, of the cost and maintenanc e of tne main drainage and irrigation and which he quoted, from the very figures which I have not checked, that Government 60 per cent.
of those charges for:e, of the sum of $180,000, so serious is to be constructed which it is put, that is.

to say all drainage and irrigation ception '·32.

The Boerasirie-Bonasika by the general as :he chooses entering one can say what the answer is.

I am not sure what it is, but fr'om what the hon.

Member said he would be quite content to confine himself ,which is already paying the other 40 per cent.

That.

is.
That.

is.

putting Ir­ rig2tion Scheme which, b:v linking the existing irrigation system with the should provide Bonasika River, water for some 50,000 acres ,of sugar, rice and ground provisions on the West · Bank and West Coast, Demerara, is financed Developme grants amountin,g Scheme is almost.

comr.Jete, scouring made the subject tion."

supply of �ur­ into the Canje which 1.s a rice-growing taxpayers to call them, then he is and no in the Colony with the ex­ of sugar estates.
should be borne then that is not But if his· motion should pay tne rest and to the extent The hut serious s is being on a very big ques.tion, of fur-ther examina­ it in very round figures.

paying some 60 per cent., nt and Welfare loans and a proposition.

Then paragraph 32 of the r·eport of the headwor'k :to £338,444.

in the wide terms in cultivation to drought."


by Colonial for irriga­ is already adequate he indicated paying about and, there­ to the Government, or· Government, states: When we look at the summary of al­ to ocations in the report with respect grants, loans.

and expenditur·e from the 1947, to the 31st March, 1st of April, 1946 we find that to this Colony was allocated a sum of £2,500,000 and a grant or loan of e up to £1,619,865, and that the expenditur March was.
£837,990, so that there is a balance of £1,662,010 necessary, drainage and irrigation.

motion in order that this Council be able to decide whether can be financed for' assistance the hon.

Member for Central Demerara (Dr. Jagan) has suggested, we may be able :proposal for the I s·econded might expenditure , or, as, to H.M. Govermnent by loan, or by an appeal which should, if be diverted to this.

this.

of $3 :had been done for th-e country to the increased and quoted what I said a and wages.
of Govern­ But in the course of his remarks he rates.

and the referred cost of the salar'ies ment servants few days ago.

We made an addition to the budget this year for that million parth:ular and he implied­ service, though he did not definitely nothing people.
Whatever failing Members of this Council not thin� any one of the� i� t undue cr'edit for' what he has do�e or what the Council has done on a whole, and or anyone when any Member here suggests, has been else suggests, done to help the farmer he is going very wide ·of the mark.

that very little sav so-that aking s any individual mav have I do 1 1,027 Drai'!7-age and Irrigation-LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.Colonial benefit to the farmers.

thing.
thing.

Question 1,028 That is but one It is just four years ago near'ly that of a minimum price, minimum prices to years.

ago.
ago.

That was the first , as it did, and said to the farmers for the first time in this Colony we introduced guaranteed a thing the farmers for their pr'oduce, that had never been done here before; and when this Council adopted the proposal "We will take .every ounc.e that you can pr'Oduce at a guaranteed it to pay for the cost of transporting and pay for the bags to put Georgetown it .in; as long as your produce is of good quality and you can be •assured market for it."
That is what we did about fotu-' step to help the farmers.

th�t scheme was introduced from the farmers of ground provision;:, and other produce such as.

tapioca, star'ch, amounted in value to a citrus fruHs, .etc., $ ¼ million.

1949, that is last year, those purchases amounted in value to not less than $850,000, which shows the progr·es-s which this marketing scheme has made ,in those a scheme which, as.
I said, four vear·s, guara�tee s to the farmer a minimum price for his produc.e, to bring .it into the market and pays for the c1st of the bags to convey it in.

In 1946 when the purchases It was a good start, but in n loans we have been quite apart from the scheme how much we have done and what In what other directions helping the farmers ?

I rather fear we for'get we hav.e done.

· I am taking this four-year period when., we adopted this new policy of assistance, I hav.e referred to.
We have made lo•ans, etc., to farmers of no less.

than $1 grants, million.

Our Food Pr'oductio during that •period amounted to $660,000.

We advanced further Co-operative Cr:edit When we had the floods and storms· at the end of last year and the beginning of this year w.e gave them Flood Relief, the total bill of which amounted like $1 million.

ance and did what we could for them.

T�1ey can s,ay it was not enough, but it was an appr,eciable amoµnt.

That is.

the second thing I would ask hon.


Members to remember so far as the farme:::-s are concerned.

sums through the Bank of $263,000.

We came to their assist­ to something pays for the transportat10n forward, is concerned, it during to you, that this act dom­ was a great stride I Juggest by thi1 Council but it is not by any means all that has been dune for the farmer.
In wor'king this scheme, which has not proved a finand a� su�cess as far as Gover'nm·ent we had in effect to subsidise those four ye,ars to the tune of somE $350 000.

That is b say, we bought the produce and sold it but the net result was, sum of money.

In 1948 when we lost that there was a large supply of yams and w-..: we could not dispose of the produce, dropped $60,000 and the Tkat was quite exceptional, reason for it was that yams wer,e a glut on the market.
Government had guaran­ teed to take them and took them but had to sell at a loss.

But it did help the farmers.

to $8,000.

teed scheme was.

introduce Government the gener,al operate it.


Personally worthwhile, of this Colony, to I think it is something taxpayers and it has been of great In 1949 that loss was reduced But all in all since that guaran­ d it has cost like $350,000, on the year''s or sound of these Charity, Taking the same But there is a third way in which we them and in an equally big way, assisted and that is by the development Lanr;t Settlements.
on our 1Land period, the expenditure amounted to $1 ¼ million, Settlements which has been voted by this Council to be given to our four big Land Settlements - Cane Gr·ove, Vergenoegen, Eversham and Anna Regina.

Whether that investment was economicallv in all cases j�, I think, a little doubtful.

In that figure there is.


$600,000 for Cane the addi­ but it does not includ,e Gr·ove, tional sum that we have given them ir, r1t the form of mechanical $250,000 to another amounting The Finance Committee tional sum.

I think the total expendjturz which is on the Cane Gr'ove Settlement, in the hon.

Mover's ,constituenc amounted to something it benefited really an ,economicall am not so sure.

We hope by next year that that Land Settlement will be going fully well.
W.e hope to have all the mechanical equipment it will reach a stage ,of 100 per cent.

development.

y, and Whether it is y sound concern, ·equipme or $300,000.

like $800,000.

400 families.

it wants and that voted that addi­ I transactions.

1,029 Drainage and Irrigation-10 NOVEMBER, 1950.

Colonial Question.

1,030 l equipment.

last year.

The With r.egard to the other' Land Settle­ told me he could put of some 30,000 we put under cultivation and from 30 to 35 bags.
ments, I think, they are very sound.

Hon.

Members.

will remember that I went to Anna Regina during Superintendent another' 1,000 acres in r.ice this year if we could giv,e him mechanica approved of that You, as a Council, e and the whol of that 1,000 expenditur acres is this.

year ,in full production is producing anything of rice per acre, which is now .being In fact in terms of the broader r·eaped.

production in this• question of stimulating Colony during the same period.
I am reviewing, new acres,, and if you ricelands.

at 20 bags per acr.e we put production 600,000 are producing than when -we began.

That is.

not a net because as you know there is increase, , but it considerable ex-pans.ion does indicate that something very sub­ stantial there iS' room for more expansion of th1s kind in what I might call a small way.

In other words, we are not making the maximum use of land which is .

.drained and irrigated we should.

a lot more can he done in a small way.


for a moment that is Not that I suggest the full answer, or a substitute major drainage for ,our and irrigation and which is.

cultivable is.

being done.

I think, myself, There is .a lot of it about, and bags of rice more elsewhere that projects.
Ther'e is, foT example, Crabwood l we and it cannot in these to clear the land which ,is high but if we could spend a more money and get that mechanical Creek, and Block III where new lands have been put into cultivation and, I hope, next year we shall have some 1,500 addi­ tional acres under padi.

The r.eason have been unable to do so this.


year is that we have not had the mechani,ca equipment bush and forest, days be done by manual labour and done economically, little we could get .at least another equipment 1,000 ,or 1,500 acres· under cultivation year and in production.

same thing in a good many other places.

But, as I say, that is not the answer to the problem.

The ans.wer to the problem comes from the second part of the motion, a more v·ig-orous where the Mover suggests.
and policy be adopted this Council in regard to drainage and d produc- irrigation next We can do the by the Government an increase to include is that it is yesterday production Demerara (Dr. J agan) said which has been preached in this tion of the Colony.

What the hon.

Mem­ ber for Central about increased nothing new, - he knows that it is a doctr•ine Council not only by me but by every Member here since I have been in this Colony.

There is.
There is.

no question be right policy to adopt, but if you are going in for the.se great, big irrigation drainage they ,cannot you know better than I do the mis.takes made .with past schemes of this kind, " which had been embarked upon with enthusiasm but which have not proved so far to be a success.

more than once the reason why it is, - that we lack the basic information which to formulate we are new endeavourin that.

sound schemes.

But g to correct all schemes you must understand be built in a day.
Some of I have told you and ..., ,on operation, We have our Consulting who Engineer n ar·e concerned e to tentativ But we are and thought before we which confront but they still require a great deal ha,<; taken the broadest possible view ,of the water control problem of the coastal belt and has already produced projects., more examination can, so to sp-eak, put them into or indeed before we can get the vast sums of money which will be necessary put them into ope:'ation.

going along on the right lines.


These things take time.

Tn.ey are long term, and we want to be sure that what we are doing is the right thing.

I think that the us here as far problems.

and irrigatio as drainage are greater probably in the world.

They are certainly , There is.

no easy slick answeT to thes·e problems.

go inland from the Coast, the land rises by about one and half inches.
every mile, and that obtains for 30 miles inland, when � you keep that at the back of your mind and remember that that has.

to be taken into consideration great ir'rigation you will r·ealize problem is.

That is the problem we are confronted Canal.

The water comes .in at the Berbice .end and befor'e it can get down to the other end the tide is.

going out again, and so the water runs back into the Berbice river.

That is the sort of problem our and drainage how difficult When you realize that.
as you " with.

Take your Torani than anywhere else in building not easy.

up any scheme, then � and great the 1,031 Drainage and' Irrigation-LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Colonial Question 1,032 s are consider'ing engineer ' and trying to find the answer to.

It is not simple.

So, when persons say or suggest Government this problem seriously too, I hope that Members of this, Council would lend no support whatever that either is not taking , and very ser'iou or this Council to them.
sly We have our Drainage and Irrigatwn But what concerns us more than• else, even .if we find the answer, Board consider'ing these problems.

Every ,week almost they are going into them a1:1cl trying to find the answer.

You may think they are rather slow.

You may think Government is slow, but I do assure you that it is a very big and v.ery difficult problem.

anything is wh�re is the money to ccme from.

Hon.

where we can Members have suggested seek assistance or from outsid':!
the International doing that.

But you cannot ask His or· the E.C.A.

for Government Majesty's you are satisfied assistance, unless.

your scheme is.

a sound one, and not only are but they must be you to b� satisfied also before they would give you satisfied the mo,ney.

That is the crux of the whole problem.

that nothing is.

being done, nothing attempted.

but a gr.eat we find foe right answers.

being A great de.al is being done, deal is still to be done befor'e Bank.
We are already - E.C.A., Do not let us delude ourselves of dollars, of thousands are receiving which every yea1·.

I hundreds the villages have not "got the actual figur'es, but if you add those to the figures I· have already given you would find a great deal is being done for the farmers of this country fear, recogniz this Council.

ashamed of as to what we can do more let us do it, but to say or suggest ls, I that we are doing nothing think, unfair to ourselves the Government.
id by certain Members of to be You have got nothing If and the rural people and far more than ls, :, we hav.e done.

and unfair to I <;lo not know what the hon.

Mem­ agricultura to mention also given to the farmers to do about the motion, but n as I see it.

If the think there should be some fur­ ,in the n of this question ber proposes that is the positio Council ther examinatio light of what I have said, probably that can be done.
I have forgotten the assistance duty .in admitting free and also allowing duty them gasolene free.

Those are big concessions.

let us say we ar.e doing nothing farmer or let the public believe Council is doing nothing for him.

We are doing a tremendous he let us encourage is going to be may have that everything done for him and he has not got to do a little him in any feeling l implements more himself.
Do no� for the lot, and do not that t.r..i.s Apart from these general observations n to the farm­ the inten.

the impressio and it seems to r:ne in my own mind how examination Mr. DEBIDIN: Sir, to me it is a great before we commit to it.

As the motion stand3 there are the terms of the motion itself.

I am not quite clear' far the hon.

Member wants to go.

Every hon.


M,ember has expressed sotne doubt a:rid that the terms of the motion want further ,ourselves its.elf, it g.ives ers that they have no longer to help themselves will and that Government come in and irrigate for them and they will just have to culti­ vate the land and reap their crops, whic.

:h is a very serious.

thing for any of US' tc suggest.


intends and the figures he himself the great extent to which we have zlready assisted further more evidence grants given to Village purposes.

village pity that so many Members of this.

Coun­ cil should hav•e misunderstood tions of this.

motion, even more a pity that we have not taken into regard the main purpose of this of this motion, motion.

The main purpose is (1) to :!

: have stated in clear language, render relief districts.
imposition living through Devaluation them.

That is the main purport motion.

It seems to me to be clear from all that we have said here in the course of this debate that the people in the rural district fas as their living I refer particularly which the hon.

the Financial and others have made.


It seems to indicate that, and that is why I: am very pained s have been made to to find that reference condition to scme of the remarks Secretary in the form of loans and for They amount to many I do not think the hon.

Member · it.

What he said in his.

Ternarks the farmers, evidenc,e of this Colony in so far as the to the people of the rural goes with of this ° go on with s are very little Authorities and I have given you and drain the land remembere of it.
I could and impact on the cost of quoted sh0w d in so is concerned.

1,033 Drainage and Irrigation- 10 NOVEMBER, 1950.

Colonial Question 1,034 a paradoxica said, that the people and the Government and I gave my reasons why the should be excluded.

The the motion in the way they have beer.

made.

It i� true what the hon.

the Financial Secretary help the Government l state of helps the people, things.

But he fails to realize this.


on� thing, that if a principl that e is involved has been broken already by principle Government granting centage of relief in their contribution to rates.

So if it is a paradox and drainage is broken, then I err in good a principle company if I am asking this Council to give to the people full relief instead partial tion, except in respect of the sugar estates, sugar estates position is that the Colony fa.
already committed to capital expenditure drainage tributing maintenan a substantial per• per cent.

Therefore, whole matter be made a colonial question, is that the Colony all that is involved should assume responsibility r·emaining works, and is con­ towards the expenditur e on ce to the extent of roughly 60 Since 1941 we have had a Drainage 40 per cent.

of the cost.

and irrigation in ask_.ing that the relief.


for the of on a of Members of consider districts Therefore, that does not come that we and works were carried I am, and I believe the whole question for this Coiony, industrially I must say at this stage how appre­ to be Drainage Areas.
out., of the Colony, we have to consider ciative this Council too, for the manner in which you, Sir, have treated of help to the rural districts but nevertheless and that is this: We must in the feature, course of determining how we are tv develop in this Colony, what is the nature of the development require otherwise, that we are hard put in this Colony to find other avenues for Up to development besides just ·a now we have very little, which we few, perhaps, enterprises can call subsidiary industrie s of the Colony.
Tb.en what are we to do but to 1ll attempt which we can say we have an independent peasantry.

every day of the week and I-cannot say that they can be regarded as being independent, which has been given seeks to render them some assistance.

't>rdinance under which certain have been declared Certain capital and to meet the expenses of maintenance rates were levied.

when the hon.
when the hon.

the Sixth Nominated Member (Mr. Morrish) referred to the question internal drainage into the matter at all, because if it is decided to make the matter a colonial question we would be dealing with works which have to be undertaken Other drainage t works.

or $160 whether they will cost $43 million million, been planned under our Ten-Year Plan.

Th.ose are works which will have to be· undertaken and cautiously, means.
That ,is capital expenditure which can never be made to fall upon the proprietors is.

to be spent on drainage works in the Mahaicony-Abary around there are not going to be asked to put up that sum?

to put this Colony in a position in s:pite of the assistance of land.

Surely, if $43 million I move around the people under the Drainage agriculture.

them.

This motion and developmen Ordinance.


to the Colony's have already according slowly area the proprietors I am certain that the object of my I am scheme tomorrow motion has been misunderstood.

attempting in no way to ask this Council to embark upon a $100 million drainage and irrigation or at any time in the very near future.

That js what the hon.

Member for Demerara River (Capt.


Coghlan) Me,mbers were thinking Member moved his amendment certain All that this motion seeks to do is to and sea irrigation suggest defence works and the maintenance should be made a colonial ques- thereof and a fow other of when the hon.

That is not ther position.

that drainage, remarks.

and made The PRESIDENT: There has been by anybody that they would asked to do when the works is to pay rates for the of those works.
That is the no suggestion be asked to do so, but what they should be reasonably are completed maintenance whole point.

No one is suggesting this great capital expenditure met from anything but r·evenue, outside source.

should be or some that Mr. DEBIDIN: I am glad that you agree with me, Sir.

Tne very amendment suggests that.

We want to see how much it would cost to provide drainage and to put arable lands in properly systems and Irrigation-LEGISLATIVE Question COUNCIL.Colonial .
1,036 1,035 Drainage drained condition.

the am ndment, and that is why I sa:r some Members have been misconstruhlg th'= intention of my motion deliberately That is the effect of .

that in the.

t find more specifically of other ways to the suppprt and we are in a variety largely ferred to the Torani and Broomfield schemes as schemes intended land.

I have read, and I think it is common knowledge in this Coul)cil, those schemes were intended to benefi,t the sugar plantations areas served by those scheµies.
Apart from the -assistance through those large sc-hemes contributing proper running of the sugar plantations.

·You have said, Sir, that loans wbich have been �iven to farmers in the region of $1 ;I./4 J11illion,1 but isn't it significant, that.

the value of the produce obtained is far less than the amount of the loans given?

So far as loans are concerned I thnik Gov2rnment admit that a good deal of the money is still out­ standing, which gives some idea of how much :profit the farmers are making.
from your own statement, will readily a:rr;i.ounted to a SUIT\ to the land settlement out that what assist­ It does not cover With reference schemes I ma,y •point ance has been given to Cane Grove is local assistance.

a.s wide a field in the Colony as the relief of drainage It seems to me that we must regard diture is made on those settlements as ca;pital expenditure, will be seen in years to come from the conversion rates would afford.

whatever of cane lands into rice lands.


the results of which expen­ The PRESIDENT: The hon, Member must not ·.say "deliberately."

Mr'.

DEBIDIN: If, as Your Excel- would on drainage costs which are in, the drainage is contributing e by drainage rates.
In respect then all that would be if this motion is passed, areas Local Authori­ the sum of in rates towards the total sum of len,cy has said, the Colony is going to stand all capital expenditure and irrigation, involved, be the maintenance recoverabl of some of the drainage ar'eas in the e o.f Colony there is a total expenditur works, of which $193,000 on maintenance Government $78,000.

So that the difference involved is rec1.Jly $115,000.
Included of the Colony ar·e sever.al ties who have to contribute $130,000 $193,000, Government the Local Authoritie the assistance sought to be given to the people by this motion is to the extent of $54,000, to tie extent of the difference $115,000 only one issue to face.

Is the Colony prepared to encourage rural districts the moment by relieving of $115,000 to give entire Colony ?
Are we prepared them that relief in the same way as.-we have given relief to civil servants and wage-earners and to the other drainage areas betweeu but of the sum of $130,000 more than it is doing at is contributing s $54,000.

So that and spreading the farmers in the and $54,000.

.them of that sum it over the $76,000 and ?

We have, ther•efore, The hon.

Nominated Member (Mr. pay the maintenance why should Georgetown drainage of private pro­ ?
May I ask whether the $3 Morrish) asked and New Amsterdam costs of internal prietors million which has been added to the Colony's increased ment employees people in the rural districts of the Colony ?

Why gener'al then should this relief to the people in th2 rural areas not be shared by the general taxpayers ·expenditure salaries and wages to Govern­ is not shared by the and the as a result of of the Colony ?

taxpayers The hon.
taxpayers The hon.

the Financial Secretary re- of the question had been getting prices, they would have gQt ·So far as the guaranteed prices for farme�s' produce is concerned we must bear in mind that if the farmers had been free to sell their produce at prices above the guaranteed better prices for many items of their pro­ duce.

Only recently cassava starch was brought up in tius Council.
The l)roducers 24 and 36 cents per pint, but the -effect of pegging the price was that the con­ sumers in Georgeto,wn got the benefit.

Milk is another -example of the resul .• of ought to pegging.

at least 15 cents,-per have be�n getting pint for their milk.

It is true that prices, have been guaranteed the farmers for their produce, but can it be said that those ·prices have been economically bene­ ficial to them?

That is.
That is.

a point which is still in issue, I think the producers anq one which we can oply 1,037 Drainage and Irrigation- 10 NovEMBER, 1950.

Colonial Question 1,038 examine very closely among the people themselves.

by making inquiries The psychological effect of this the people to, consider 15 for working and 162.5 in Georgetown, ·sugar motion ought readily to be seen, and I am asking this Council in the country when it is dealing districts with the cost of living.
The monthly .figures of the Cost of Living Index based on the 1942 survey, shows an Index figure of 138.3 on September class families for working class people on It is shown by this report that the cost of living it is.

in Georgetown, pegging assistance The people in the country strike.

What would happen if they de­ clared an economic produce foodstuffs money?

in the rural areas, is far higher than .as.


a r'esult of the of prices and the vast amount of and refused to they are losing given to the people in the City.

strike because districts do not estates.

I do not prices but to the in­ in the prices of due to increased I must make cost of living suggests that sought it would his motion the hon.

Member if we grant the relief cheapen the cost of living.

it clear that the increased is.

not prineipally of imported foodstuffs cost of local produce.
creased know whether hon.

Members are aware of it but I can assure them that it is a fact that the rise in the cost of living is more due to increases local produce than to the prices of im­ ported foodstuffs.

account keting.

not bringing ment Produce Depot at Jhe moment.

You know where it is going as well as I do.

.

That is It is going to the blackmarket possibly cause to the rise in the cost of living.

more It is.

certainly prices of local pro.


due to the increased duce than to the prices of imported arti­ cles.

I do not know if the mover of the amendment to make.

I cannot accept it as an amendment the form in which it stands.

the fact that ,there fa blackmar­ are As I have said, the farmers has.

any suggestion in a contributory That is not taking into their produce to the Govern­ If the Council by a majority decides of and irri­ that in a cen­ that we should implication and irrigation.
but I cannot .accept the sug­ in the matter •of drainage to examine the .financial my motion I would be prepar,ed to accept that decision, gestion in the amendment consider what amount of arable land may be put under drainage That would be taking us along a path I am not an old which I never intended.

man but I believe that I am h.E{aring stage.


I can say, however, tury of years we have done comparatively little gation in this · Colony, and it seems to me that it cannot be sufficiently empha­ sized that we must embark upon a very programme.
I know from con­ vigorous versation and from with Your Excellency, what you have said over and over in this that no one is more imbued than Council, for a vigor­ you are with the necessity ous campaign in this Colony, and .I feel sure that you would be the best person to undertake the im­ plementation that this Council grant this relief districts tion, like our sea detf enc es, a ic\olo1nial question.

of my motion.
of my motion.

I feel sure can do no better than to the people in the rural by making drainage and irriga­ for better drainage The PRESIDENT: point out that in one of the preambles I would like to to Capt.

COGHLAN: As the mover of to your a Committee in order to guide them the motion is quite agreeable to go into the appointing I would suggest that he be put on details the Committee as to what he r·eally to convey when it suggests ment should be responsibl and irrigation."

drainage fact that the hon.


Member is agreeable the appointment suggest respectfully to do as you think fit in the matter.

that Govern­ e for "all In view of the to intends.

his motion of a Committee I would to Your Excellency The PRESIDENT: As · the mover is willing }t:o withdraw thalt part of his :that a Com­ motion on the understanding mittee would be appointed to consider suggestion and irrigation question, mittee.
that the matter of drainage as a colonial such a Com­ be regarded I agree to appoint the Mr. DEBIDIN: If the proposal is to to con­ and to refer my motion to a Committee sider all its financial � accept that report back to this.

Council very readily.

I think the hon.

Member for Demerara Riv.er agrees.

implications 1,039 Dogs Bill- LEGISLA'l'IVl!'!

The PRESIDENT: Does the hon.

Member agree that his motion be referred to a Committ:ee to examine and eonsider and to report to the Council?
by me to be appointed the proposals Mr. DEBIDIN: Yes, Sir.

The PRESIDENT: The motion will agrees.

if the Council be so referred Motion to be referred to Committee to be appointed.

DOGS BILL, 1950; I beg The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: ,of a Bill to move the second reading intituled: "An Ordinance owners of dogs liable to cattle' by dogs; to provide protection poses connected from dogs; and for pur­ therewith."

to render the done for injuries better that it had previously to do the particular Hon.

Members.
Members.

are aware that the for owner of a dog is not -in law liable damage done by the dog without proof of his knowledge shown a propensity damage.

It is, however, able that this requirement necessary dogs to cattle, which is based •on section J of the Dogs, Act, 1906 (6 Ed.

7, Ch.

32), seeks to do away with this requirement.

considered desir­ should not be in the case of damage done by and clause 3 of the Bill, It and people commenting feel and have always.
are placed on a higher plane than This Bill excludes I know there are as why - to whom on the Bill - knowledge of the dog and its being to bite human beings".

CotJNC1L Second R�ading i,040 I am at a loss to understand put it in the words of somebody I overheard animals human beings.
and, as a lawyer, many cases of dogs biting human beings as there are of dogs biting animals, felt that I certainly in the case' of a dog running out and bit­ ing a human being there should not be a term to prove scienter, any necessity in law meaning "previous of ferocfousness accustomed seems to me that what that definition boils.

down to is, you must always giv.e a dog its first bite.
I rather the first bite to be given for an animal than for a human being, because may bad first bite and the person bitten lose his or her life.

The whole idea is to prevent in .the Court in these cas'es, as to the dog having bitten someone before.

Some­ times it is the first time the dog showed any such propensity, bitten intention of this Bill and I will, there­ fore, when the time comes -;- and I feel sure hon.
Members of Council with me - ask to be included in clause 3 something c;l. dog shall be liable jury done to a human being or person, or to any cattle by that dog."

It is a matter for other Members to comment on.

We are supplemented in our acts by legal talent and, I am sure, they .are all going to express and it means the persori has no remedy.

That is the like "the owner of in damages for in­ will agre'e s-omewhere people committing it may be a very an opinion perjury on this.
Clause 4 of the Bill is based on section or to be destroyed.

I think hon.

the .fact that to order a Magistrate dog to be kept under proper 2 of the Dogs Act, 1871, (34 & 35 Viet.

C.56), and enables a dangerous control Members.

will appreciate in this.

Colony there are many cattle and flocks of sheen and it is, desirable lation danger'ous, provisions the Statute this Bill be now read a second time.
When dogs become and harry sheep and such as these should be put on that there should be some legis­ Bobk.

I beg to move that of this nature.

cattle Mr. RAATGEVER seconded.

Mr. DEBIDIN: This Bill has some very useful .provisions, visions of this Bill are long overdue.
But and I feel the pro­ I feel it is placing too much burden around ;3. place the a dog o say that because I think it is a very dan­ All someone has to do on that proviso t is seen knocking owner of that place should be liable automatically.

g·erous provision.

is to bring two witnesses dog was seen be another should X be made liable so easily?

I think it should be left for ownership .the dog to be proved.
We are helping the point of scienter go any further proprietots of in but we should not to create hardship on the of houses.

I think that pro- .

to say that the It may on the doorsteps.

dog of the same plaC'e.

Why 1,041 Dogs Bill- 10 NOVEMBER, 1950.

Second Reading 1,042 viso may be eliminated, subject other Members feel on the point.
to what I am happy to see that Council concern the same ' Mr. LUCKHOd: Sir, my first case at the Bar was dne which concerned a dog and I am happy to see I am at with that least keeping in conformity start, when my opening rem-ar'ks in this Legislative specie of animal.

this Bill has been intr9duce d .into this Colony, and I will observe not only it is long overdue but, as my hon.

friend has it .will save perjury and just mentioned, sins of a like nature being committed our Courts of Law.
But what perturbs and I am a trifle of any provision lawfully in a particular and cattle stray on to such premises and that dog, either in defence property lar cattle.

making the owner of the dog liable in damages?


confused, for cases where a dog is Sir, as Is that to be regarded, or otherwise ,attacks the particu­ in me is the absence house or premises of his master's especially as being a dangerous It would appear on reading this Bill that the owner of the dog will be liable, as I see no exceptions in the Bill.

In like manner it would appear that dog may also be regarded dog.

I do not know, Sir, .whether pro­ vision may .


not be :made for :such an eventuality, Colony animals are prone to stray at will, and it is almost common to find cattle straying owner in of the particular for protection that particu�ar I point that out in the ho!

)e that there may be some provisi-Jn the owner from being liable in such circumstances.

on to lands where dogs are kept placed or instituted where in this premises.
to prevent has a she-dog and several assume for argument sake this Ordinance is r,assed.

In the country all the districts yards are not paled around.

The owner of a premises other dogs were there when cattle oassed on the road and those dogs rush;d out the cattle but not his dog.

and attacked He will be liable in damages, as under this Ordinance of owner­ ship is based on the dogs having been seen There in the owner's yard or premises.

whereby, should be some provision as the Member has hon.
the Seventh Nominated straying said, if � dog is repelling animals ·or .9ersons in his owner's 9remises the owner should nQt be liable in damages.

the presumption • I think it would be invidiou:, Member.

whose dogs are lawfullv Mr. CARTER: Sir, I would like t:.> add force, if I may, to the argument o.!'

the hon.
the hon.

the Seventh Nominated I do n8t think we can allow thi., Bill to go through without any r>rovision to protect _persons on their premises s1nd have attac-ked sheep or cattle that strayed on those premises.

if we allow this Bill to pass through this Council without havin_e: made some pro­ vision for injury caused to animals which on which have strayed upon .9remises dogs are ker,t and on which those dogs live.

I am afraid that th9.

hon.


Member for Eastern my thunder when he r>Ointed out that is made for cattle no although protection it is a tribute to the charity that we consider before we consider is made for mankind.

I thin"i--: of mankind of anim:11� Demerara (Mr. Debidin) the protection our own protection.

protection stole Mr. LEE: There is also a little p:r:o­ there were more than five vision' that should be added.
There is a 'decided case in the Colony where at one time any dog found on a premises the owner of that premises is liable to take out a licence; or six dogs found on the premises and the owner was charged for being in pos­ session he appealed contention those dogs, whi h h:1d gone tlH!rc result of his havh1g a she-dog.

Let us of the dogs and convicted; and the Full Court upheld his that he was not the owner of as the (2) of clarn:2 I think sub-clause So far as the argument of the hon.
l River (Mr. Lee) is ,.

Member for Essequibo concerned, 3 meets that.

The complainant will • have to !

'!stablish that the do_g: was kept or permitted to live or remain on the He will have to show, I re­ premises.

spectfully submit, was there on that occasion permitted sion and other occasions.

think there is much substance unles.s argument.

convinces the hon.
convinces the hon.

the Attorney-General to allow the Bill to go • me otherwise, through without making some provision not only that thP dog but it was So I do l'\01, in that to remain there on that occa-.

It will be dangerous, i,043 bogs Bill- LEGISLATIVE CotiNcii.

Second Rea.ding 1,044 ship under the proviso which has beer.. to by the hon.
Member for E'3se­ referred quibo River (Mr. Lee), I agree that the words in the :proviso to clause 3, sub­ dause (2) "or remain at the time of th2 injury" and apart from is a :presumption, that there is.

the question co live" and "permitted the fact in itself that the on certain premises.

moment does not necessarily the dog was· permitted kept there.

I think that answers.

the hon.

point, and I agree with the hon.

Member's Memb�r for Georgetown · South (Mr. Carter).

to remain".
to remain".

So to li-�e or was dog is s-e.�n ,at a particulax mean that of "perrr.i.tted With regard to the point first raised, of this whole matter.

Demerara one has to appreciate the I refer regarding human beings by the hon.
Member for Eastern (Mr. Debidin) background to the difference and anima]s with r,espe,ct would just like · to quote from Salmond on Torts, 9th Editi-on , at page 557. to .d,og,s, and I "The law," says Lord Holt, "takes notice that a dog is, not of a fier,ce but rather the contrary.

nature, '' That is the r,eason why it is l�ft ,out of this question in ,de.ailing matter.

The same rthing applies with this to cattle.


was accordingly by-the Do'g·s Act, the law has been 1906, by which proof and in such cas,es On required.

"At Common Law it was deemed not to be in the nature of a dog to attack sheep and ,cattle, of scle,nter this point, however, altere,d: it is• provided shall be liable in damages for injuxy done to any cattle by that dog, 2.nd it for the pers,on shall not be necessary seek­ ing such damages.
to-show a previous mis­ in the dog, or the chievous or owner's knowledge to show that to neglect on the part of the owner."

that "the owner of a dog p-ropensity o'f such propens•ity, the injury was.

attributable land and a dog belonging upon for cases where cattle trespassed t9 people's someone else there bites them.

I would like to see scienter c:;se where human beings are attacked a dog.

removed also in 3. by Mr. LEE: May r' be permitted i:: reply to my learned The sub-clause time of the injury".
friend and colleague?

says "or remain at the Mr. CARTER: It says "permi.tted +o live or remain"!

re­ to to the principle of apprehension Mr. PETERS: It is certainly to see that the time has at la3t another animal is concerned in the same way.
One questicn Proof of ownership bec-ause when one has a case in our of attacks· by dogs, in is the of scienter freshing come for us to begin to realize that this of sC'ienter old-fashioned princi9le should of the­ be cast into oblivion in resl:)ect to enjoy that dogs are permitted privilege But I, too, must confes·3 in a community.
to a feeling as to what was in the offing if we had come to the so far as dog:; point to remove scienter attacking and at the same time not so careful see that human beings were accordingly protected that arises, Courts in respect addition proof of ownership.

is a r2ther elastic is the nrinciole, .

� .....,.. .

.

m our laws, that 1f a dog 1s kept or 1s fed on one's premises one is presumed to be the owner of that dog.
There hBve been cases in the Courts where the Revenue-runner, of scienter, temerity to see where the dog runs for asylum, and conclude whose doorstep owner.

I say that because, to the question as to the ownership purpose of this :proposed and -sure that the must be very careful hon.

the Attorney-General will give due care to what definition we are going t'J place on the term "owner."
has more than once had the to throw a stick at a do,i:i;, look at once that the person to the dog had run is the when it comes of making U.:!

:) our minQS as we have incorp::irated apart from the question of the dog for the Ordinance, matter, the1·3 we .

.

I arr1 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: going to take the last point raised first.

With regard to the point about owner- The hon.


Member's point is, you ar� the cattle .above the human bemg, lifting and both the human being and the she,ep should be put in the same category.

That is what the hon.

Member suggests, but I would point out to hon.

Members tha;t the .

of the Do,gs Act are provisions c,ertainly in the .same terms.

It -was passed in England in 1906 and has worked- i,045 Dogs Bill- 10 NOVEMBER) 1950.
Second Reading 1,046 there up to now, and there has never been any attempt, the law so far as scienter human beings is concerned.

so far as I am aware, to alter with regard b1 • Mr. DEBIDIN: To a point of correc• tion!

May I ask the hon.

the Attcrney­ General whether scienter to be proved in respect -Coiony.

of mankind in this is not re-:1uired t has been based on the Dogs Act The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: S·J it is in England.
What I am trying to "'loin out is, the Bill which iS' before this Council of the United Kingdom of 1906, and there has been no attempt present scienter the same way as it affects cattle in the Bill.

Still hon.

Members seem to think that some such provision sh<Juld be made in respect not ag,ree because, quite clear.

time to deal with the principle as applicable between 1fl06 and the of of human beings.
I do to human beings in_ I think, the law is, as defined NJ; he The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: land question I suggest that the pro­ and more.

In that case, is a trespasser I think, the dog should be congratulated.

Those are the points raised-the as to the dog itsel'f and its mis,chievous propensity-and pensityi in the d-og is not varied by its going out on someone elst:'s or on the :roadside and biting an animal.

It is the same whether it '1 < bites on its owner's premises or on the highway.
premises of the ·dog's propensity.

out as I have pointed itself is conoerned, to hon.

Members, it is in the terms of the Dogs Act of 1906 which was p::i.ssed 44 years ago.

As to the feeling bers that there should ment in regard to human beings·, that question should Committee , I take it, hon.

Members agree principle that a Bill such as this is required.

be dealt with in the stage, but on the g.eneral If it is done on the · owner's he should know all the more of hon.
Mem­ be some amend­ So far as the Bill propensity s propensity the propensity The other point raised by the Lon.

Member, js where or on the roadside, relates to the of the animal the Seventh Nomin?,ted cattle stray on the lands of the owner of with or a dog and that dog interferes the animal, what is the bites or harasses position?

My answer to thart is, that does not alter the fact of the mischievous of the dog.
It does not matter whether it happens on the owner's pr�mises the mischievou dog itself, as known to the owner.

The fa.ct that the dog bit.es eontinues the bite takes plac-e on his premises ought to fortify sdenter; stray on per.sons' by that person's the position propensity only point in this.

legislation necessity removed.

The necessity scienter on the owner's.

premises an.d to bite other persons, for proving a first bite is.

being of the dog is concerned.

is' being done away with.


dog surely fortifies or prove the f2.iet and be bitten of proving premises because is that the s.o far as the mischievous T'he of Mr. CARTER: Would a burglar be in the same _position time?

if he enters a s�crmd Mr. CARTER: I think ther0 is legis­ lation in England now removing in the case of human beings.

It was passed early this year.

scjenter Mr. LEE: May I ask the hon.

and learned the Attorney-General the matter in the case of a trespass?
to tev.�ew The PRESIDENT: I think hon.

Mem­ bers agree with the principle as being necessary.

of the Bill Question put, and the Council divided and voted as follows:- For: Messrs. Luckhoo, Morrish, Carter, Farnum, \ Lee, Dr. Jagan, i Phang, Peters, Smellie, Roth, Raatgever, Dr. Singh, the Financial and Treasurer, General and the Colonial tary - 15. the Attorney-4 Secre­ Secretary , Against: Mr. Debidin - 1.

Motion adopted and the Bill read a sec'Ond time.


Mr. DEBIDIN: May I move that further consideration ferred and a Select Committee be and draft what to consider appointed should be :put in.

Tbat is amendments of this.

Bill be de­ and the fact that animals may 1,047 Dogs Bill-LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Committee Stage Deferred 1,048 t 1e reasoh why I voted against are too many amendments the Committee the moment.

It requires with authorities to be done in stage just on the spur cf before you.
legal know ledg2 it.

There The PRESIDENT: The Bill has b,�en read a second time.

If the hon.

Member wishes to move that further consideration ••be deferred he can do so.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: May I point •out to hon.

Members that it is desirable to know clearly we must have amendments.

.on what points in 0f If the majority the three points which does not agree with them go out of the Bill.

Let us dis­ those three points as being accepted, have been raised should be conisdered the Committee stage.
the Council then they cuss in Committee regards human beings.

dogs trespassing perty, and the question thought the Council the principle be some legal protection to fhe extent of the protection, can discuss was fully agreed on of the Bill - that there mL..st upon other people's dogs.

As that we in Committee.

of ownership.

being incln.ded against pro­ I , Mr. CARTER: I second the motion Demerara.

.

In this so far as the the hon.

the Attorney­ stray o.nd people Jwn of the hon.


Member for Eastetn I understood General was sympathetic is concerned case of trespass country where there are not many fences as in England cattle dogs to protect themselves property, whether in the form of human beings or cattle, I think the dog is permitted to That is why we injure any trespasser.

keep dogs in this Colony, not only 3.S pets but to nrotect possibl; meet with the general approval Council.
-:o clause 3 of the Bill, it w�uld of this and their us.

If there is a !

)roviso, and if there are trespassers in a yard - animals trespassing Mr DEBIDIN : Those three points consideration require very careful as to the manner in which the drafting ;;;!1ould be done.

There is still some dispnte as regards whether the owner is liable, of that kind.

The hon.

Member for Georgetown there has been an Act passed in England to human beings being bitten with respect by dogs.
T,he legal Members of �he Council should be able to consider all those things and decide on the proper phraseology of any amendments.

South (Mr. Carter) and t'1ings says that Mr. ROTH: I think it would meet with the approval of the majority Members if the Committee stage was de­ ferred.

It would give Members an opportunity to consider should be made and how they should be framed.

of what amendmer.ts Wh1le .

expressions The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: what hon.


Members are say­ the Bill in the I appreciate ing I will have to re-draft of opinion light of the general .

We want to get down to something more definite and concrete.

raised is with regard to human beings and the auestion of scienter.

Then there was the 1;oint and ; third point with regard to the ques­ tion of ownership hon.

Members are agreed on those three points, pressions they are merely ex­ opinions.

.
.

I do not know whether of individual The first point or whether· raised with regard to animals, Mr. DEBIDIN: There is one way we can test that and that is to have a Select Committee to go into the suggested amendments.

The PRESIDENT: I would have thought that the principle of the Bill Mr. PETERS: Some time ago �l.tPrc was, good enough to suggest of the matter be de­ was a Bill before the Council which It called for serious consideration.
of the prospects affected the professional legal Members of this Council and Yow� Excellency that consideration ferred in order that the Attorney-General might have a conf.erence bers.

I think that at that conferenee were able to iron out a good many defects in the Bill.

This Bill proposes, a radical change in the law, pose of the legal Members is not to oppose or obstruct pur­ pose but to assist him.
I am surP the Attorney-General to the to meet the legal Members of suggestion the Attorney-General's with those Mem­ we and I think the ;iur­ will be amenable 1,049 Dogs Bill-10 NOVEMBER, 1950.

Committee Stage Deferred 1,050 the Council who practise and are able to give assistance.

that the Bill be· deferred U'n­ for furt!ier sideration.

I do urge in the Courts Dr. SINGH: Members of the ·council have lost sight of the fact that the owner of a doJ is supposed to take out a licenC'e .
Mr. LEE: Not in the country districts.

The PRESIDENT: I am quite agree­ able if it is the wish' of the Council that consideration .of the Bill be defer:ced so that hon.

Members may confer with the Attorney-General on the amendmPnts.

to meet the le�al Members The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I am of prepared the Council before the Bill is brought back to the Council standing fo order to settle out­ points.

I ap­ on matters to meet the legal Mem­ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: the hon.
Member's point, ar:d I preciate am always willing bers of Council The three points which have been raised naturally drafting endeavouring are definitely brs.

involve of the Bill.

The point I W?S to make is whether they agreed upon among Mem­ a certain amount of' re­ of legislation.

The PRESIDENT: I hope hon.

l:vfom­ to make on th•� bers who have suggestions Bill will make them to the Attorney­ and having received General, will resume consideration Committee.
Committee them we of the Bilt in .of the Bill in Consideration is ther�fore deferred .

The Council was adjourned until Thursday, November 16, at 2 !Un.