Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698073829230.pdf (Guyana)
THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES OFFICIAL REPORT [VOLUME 21 PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES OF THE SECOND SESSION OF 'THE FIRST PARLIAMENT OF GUYANA UNDER THE CONSTITUTION OFGUYANA 18th Sitting Thursday, 26t' NATIONAL ASSEMBLY The Assembly met at 2 p.m. Prayers /Mr.

Deputy Speaker in the Chair] Present His Honour the Dep uty Speaker, Mr. R. C. Tello .
Members of the Government Ministers Dr. the Honourable P. A. Reid, of Finance R. E. Cheeks of Local Governmem E. F. Correia Minister The Honourable Minister The Honourable Minister The Honourable Minister , The Honourable Minister C. M. L. John of Home Affairs R. J. Jordan of Agriculture of Communications and Natural C.B.E., J.P. Resources The Honourable Minister The Honourable Minister W. 0.
R. Kendall, and Housing C. A. Merriman, J.P. of Health of labour and Social Security Secretaries: P-arliamentary Mr. D. B. DeGroot, ·Parliamentary Mr.,-G; , .

� f}ti,f,entary Secretary, ,:,Mr. ·{1pf..,�larke �· Jliii./iaiiJtntary Secretary, Secretary, llowman, Ministry Office of the Prime Minister of Agriculture and Natural Resources Office of the Prime Minister Hydraulics l' � ·!� +,� of Local Government J.P. of Finance Ministry Ministry of Works and tary Secretary, r!

Secretary, f n, 0.8.E., .· · .


· r, ··· .

oo,-Chung .

.

.

• tary Secretary, Ministry .

.

I)�'-::;!• e�bers: _....tr ,; ,, .

':' P. S. ,�iar .

w. A. Blair r. J. JJudhoo � M. Kasirn : ,.

. "

.

::�� �Mr W.<,;.

Carrington '•,;.'···.

:; :' M\ R. G. B. Field-Ridley �-D. Mahraj lt. T. A. Sancho ,r. J. H. Thomas Hw.

A.

B. Trotman �r.

H. M. S. Wharton, J.P. .

of the Opposition Members Mr. Ram Karran Mr. R. Chandisingh Mr. H.J.
M. Hubbard Dr. Charles Jr. Jacob, Mr. C. V. Nunes Dr. F. H. W. Ramsahoye Mr. E. M. G. Wilson Mr. M. Hamid, J.P. Mr. J. R. S. Luck Mr. D. C. Jagan Mr. H. Lall Mr. Mooneer Khan, J.P. Mr. Y.

Ally Mr. L. Linde Mr. R. D. Persaud, J.P. Mr. M. N. Poonai Dr. S. A Ramjohn Mr. E. M. Stoby Deputy Clerk of the National Class II Clerk -Mr. M. B. Henry - Mr. J. P. Edwards Assembly ABSENT Leader of the House) of Parliamentary Affairs ( L. F. S. Burnham.

Q.C.
Q.C.

N. J. Bissember, The Honourable Prime Minister The Honourable Minister The tllonourable Mrs. W. G askin Minister of Education M. F. Singh The Honourable of Works and Hydraulics Minister The Honourable M. W. Carter of Information Minister The Honourable S; S. Ramp hal, C.M.G., Q.C.

Attorney-General H. C. Spence The Honourable of Trade Minister Mr. H. Prashad, J.P. Mr. A.
Chase Mr. B. H. Benn Mr. S. M. Saffee Mr. M. Bhagwan and Minister of State I( Presentation of 26th October, 1967 Papers and Reports ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER LEA VE TO MEMBERS -f;'.

"f Mr. Nunes: Mr. Deputy S� ' has de · · and again the Government an utter disregard for, and !-_ : '.1 discourtesy question Orders.

of er of the suspension .Jf � The present Bill dealing and Savi"851� to, the Opposi · · · · •· Mr. Deputy Spe aker: Hon.
Members, to the Honourable have to announce granted for the period to the Honourable M.F.

Singh to the 31st October, Honourable October, the 17th October to 1st December, 1967. that leave has been Burnham L.F.S.

22nd to 30th October, from the 20th 1967; to the H.C. Spence from 22nd to 28th 1967 and to Dr. C.B.

Jagan from 1967; PRESENTATION AND REPORTS OF PAPERS , sir, the Oppositi.ua1""•.w�-114...,....., Certificates Savings case in point.
Had it not, ... tfot/ ' initiative been faced with the situatio ': ·.

ma�; was placed on the Order-.

and: th¢, Government that it proposed the Standing made by any member of thcGovtl7'\ nt to -�� consult .. '£- ,-;, and courtesy·''.

point; 1 We hope that this p� will.

gf!f8; had already m:• ip · to move di .


_t;iio us on this particular Orders but ·rk, was , 1 ; ( 1)Annual Report of the Commissioner of Inland Revenue for the year ended 31st December, 1963; (2)Constitutional Office (Remuneration of Holders) (No.

2) Order, 1967, made under section 5 of the Constitutional O ffices ( Remunerati Ordinance, 1962, Minister 196 7; the 13th of October, on of Holders) of Finance on (No.

(3)Customs Duties (Amendment) made under 3) Order, 1967 (No.
29), section 8 of the Customs Ordinance, Chapter 1967 309, on the 6th of October, and published 7th of October, Finance.]

in the Official Gazette on the of 1967 - [The Minister on this matter is .

-�mething discontinued The initiative that you have shown, sir, in.

COlfflllli11B the Opposition worthy of note.

I do hope, sir, th•t you will use your special to urge GO¥tm�t .. offices to behave in a different ns.

occasio subsequent John: I Mr • .

, .•.

, '_<\ should like to rcpl e ' _.'


)ih _ .. _ � made by the hon.

Mc .

.

· .. · .·.

know, sir, there .

.

• manner · �ff';·.

;,, :' allcganons you will yourself discussion and, as a result the Leader of the Opposition informed.

with you on what was pr� � of that, it was intimated:� ·--.
would'� MOTIONS RELATING TO, THE BUSINESS OR SITIINGS OF THE ASSEMBLY AND MOVED BY A MINISTER SUSPENSION OF ST ANDING ORDER The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr. John): I beg to move that the entire Savings proceedings of the Treasury Certif i c at e s a n d Savings Bonds Bill, 1967, which is on this (Amendment) Order Paper, be exempted provisions Order No.

9. from the (2) of Standing of paragraph I think that to make a broad statement of Standing Orders, about the suspension made by the hon.
Member, would be quite wrong because different apply in making requests .

of Standing Orders for the suspension as considerations In this case, one can understand that it cause no serious inconvenience can really and it must be a decision urgently.

an allegation Government which arc permitted should be levelled for carrying I do not see any reason why such the against out functibl!s by the Standing come to very Orders'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Hon.


Leader of the House, I wonder if this is the appropriate time for the suspension of Standing Order 26th October, and 1967 Certificates Bonds Savings 1"06 )tl'IJ' • .. Bflls-Second · , ·Reading Treasury ., .

·(I �- J: ·Savings . '

,' ::\»J� .• ';� EAKER] · }��� moved, because � .�� we can debate .

�itr�;�· ... :JIT-.. � Yes, Mr. Speaker.

.

•. "'

• time .

t t!ft.suspension the mover of the Motion of Standing At the Order yJw to.

•..
•..

,.,,., ·: �� �· and agreed ,li,J� D,pCTION OF BILLS .\,.

-FIRST READING 1 .

Bills were introduced and tollowing Firs( time: �>.:;.

: W N�tional Registratio':1 Bill, 1967.

·'· �:The'M\pister of Home Affairs.]

· .··.· · (ii) Treasury Savings Certificates and Savings Bonds (Amendment) -[The Minister of Finance.]

Bill, 1967.

PUBLIC BUSINESS }.jl BILLS -SECOND READING .


TJtEASURY TES CERTIFICA SAVINGS AND SA VIN GS BONDS BILL (AMENDMENT) A Bill intituled: "An Act to authorise the raising Bond$," of loans by the issue of Savings -(The Minister of Finance.]

·.

SUSPENSION ORDERS OF STANDING The Minister of Finance (Dr. Reid): I beg to move that Standing Order 46 be suspended Bill to be proceeded to enable this with at this sitting.

Question put, and agreed to.


points: is instituted to take care of the Amendment following of first, the definition of the "bonds"; secondly, the extension Ordinance to cover the issue of these bonds; thirdly, administer modification exemption.

the right of the Bank of Guyana to the of the scope of the tax funds; and lastly, the sinking Section 2 of the original Bill, that is No.
12 of 1965, has to be amended to allow us of the word to have an interpretation the "bonds" and this will be included before interpretation The definition "Savings under this Ordinance;" that we need to bring to the attention Members.

Bonds authorised That is the first point to be issued of of the word "certificates".
of the word "bonds" means The next point is that in Section 3 of the we will debate the words "of which appear after the word the words "of Ordinance certificates" "issue" and substitute Treasury Savings Certificates Bonds".

7(2).

This Amendment is to management of the sinking entrusted Governments Bank of Guyana.
to the Crown Agents for Oversea and Administrations or of Savings is to Section The other Amendment fund to be allow the or the We are deleting Section 8 and ·he following is to be substituted: declare "8.
The Minister may, by order, that i• respect of any particular issue of tes, no income tax or capital gains certifi• or tax shall be chargeable premium paid to the holder of any certificates to him by reason respect of them: Provided or on any capital gains accruing in that no order under this on any interest section of any transaction shall apply to any amount in excess of thousand held by any person."
in respect of certificates dollars ten Dr. Reid: In moving the Second Reading of this · Bill I should like to draw to the attention Amendment to allow the savings certificates The Bill, therefore, - [Mr. Luck: "That is not true."]

of Members that this is just an issue not only of but also of savings bonds.

is a simple Amendment -and the the new plan will mclude the issue of bonds to, not only the wealthy but also to anyone in this country.
This will certainly be by the public as being the most regarded which will be given to attractive opportunity in the the people of Guyana to participate people, When these Amendments arc accepted h Bills-Second Reading 26th October, 1967 Certificates and Savin Treasury Savings Bonds because, according the bonds will Programme bonds with just Development to the plan of this new issue, in very low units and be made available persons can begin purchasing $1.
We hope that, as soon as the Bill is passed, the details will be made known to the public and I am certain people in this country - even those with $25, or $50 -will be only in work activities savings development of this country.

that all the $1, not which can be invested to assist able to participate but also in their small of the country have been dissip the present time, the Govern credit and overdraft facilities by the Central Bank.

F. overdrafts were made av • commercial banks.


The int has gone down as currency pressures.

Because depend on borrowed fun4s/' thing has happened, · this.

of its p, and l: These Savings Bonds .

· · 1,.

.... in the as well.

Therefore, an Amendment of this type the support not only of the but of the Opposition can share in in this country the must have Government All the people the purchase of bonds.
For instance, that, as Christmas units arc so reasonable is drawing near, people can buy bonds for Christmas gifts.

small savings ity.

Ifwe are to proceed Programme, as we can from all areas of this com­ savings munity.

I think I have covered all the Amend­ ments I have in mind.

Therefore, I now move the Second Reading We will then be able to have of this commun­ with the Development we will have to make as much from all sections of this Bill.

mop us local savings.


T�/ country who have sa� investablc are very few.

:"� .

, Government borrows intemall: ·" '1ae � purpose, what actually community?

� p ·· This intcmal·:' bearing in mind the money � not: spent, tesults in, transfe, otr.. have, perhaps, t'oc;, 11\ •· ·; · who already p �nd �e ·oucr · .

those who have very little, .. from the umc It came 10 · the Government .

.

.

office has been to use fiscal and· monct with this end in view.
When we ta.tii policies into account the fact that intcre.st m�: which the Government types of loans arc high, one sees cle� as a result of local borrowing, wcalthlf transferred from section of this community.

is paying f�:�jt the poor to the In accordance with Article 80(2) of The of Guyana, has recommended Constitution Cabinet for the consideration Assembly: "Treasury Savings Certificates and Savings Bonds (Amendment) Bill."

2.25p.m.
2.25p.m.

I signify that the the following Bill of the National to the Minister proposes Reid), the money so raised Dr. Jacob: The Government to issue a new type of public security called Savings Bonds and, according of Finance (Dr. Let will be used for development me make it quite clear at the outset that the People's to the raising the People's any funds so borrowed used, that is, they should be used in the public interest.

of loans for development, Progressive Progressive Party wishes that purposes.
but should be properly Party has no objection Thus far, the Government has been indulging and wasteful expenditure.

in a spending All of the reserves spree, extravagance was ·not from the country· the for the country because paid on these external When it comes to external bo.

·• this is another matter that also resu .· difficulties loan;·rneirms interest an outflow .• w_py of capital did I say that the money borrowed put to good use?
We shall have to look at 'tbc policy of the Government economic has been framed, as a result influences, of p ublic enterprise.
development not spent to develop enterprise, could result taxation; i ts i de ology , w i s h e s t o h a v e all rev e n u e-earning a n d profit-making revenuc�arni which, if properly in the lessening of the burden of but this Government, because of money that is being spent is Much of this ng public which of external not to promote the development developed, 26th October, 1967 Certificates and Savings Bonds H ' (,DI\, J.\�] e by th: public _ ?t:erpri��--.

n?t unde�taken ;JI .


_ _ m other � �ct�r lilt _l,y pnvate md1v1duals, otds, 'bf the friends, backers · .. :·, and supporters the e:�on Government.

That is why �- .

!

!itlai:_�oney were to be put to good · .

.,_..: , .

, would wholeheartedly support .

qnlf ,f Savings Bonds but of other i •.

: .

f: '"� .

.

pui>'+� �curities.

.PF of the money which is "1 ; <.�, A .

\ (IC 4:,,,� o��d f�.-i;velopment purposes is being ' '.

'r �� 'to rm�oe the current needs of the · ,< ·.


'4C_��•' A) the end of this month, whicp\ll• few days off, the Government will :;_be in d�u!ty to pay public servants.

1 of th� #vdopment money is being diverted to· 1I1eet current needs and requirements heca�� of the extravagance and wasteful spendiJiffl.�f the Government.

.

The Bill now before us has a most It seems to vest in the feature.

a discretion ·our tax base and therefore of the territory.

Minister to further :.


:narrow., reduce the -revenue :.wi¥ tjave the discretion to make an order to �x�p� from income tax and also capital "'./ns.

tax, any interest .

'»bjectfonable The Minister of Finance A lot ,--1.µrchasers of Certificates which states by the received and Bonds, but there is a proviso that if the amount held in Certificates and Bonds exceeds will notbe permfrted exemption.

2.35p.m.
2.35p.m.

the Minister to make an order granting $10,000, its who on his unearned income tax his interest can also say: "We free."

The Government investors will not permit those large i n v est o v e r $10,000 to have this concession."

Government can point out to its wealthy supporters advantage Perhaps of the exemption.

I should explain But, secretly ways and means of taking the Coalition that.

A wealthy say, $100,000.


of this exemption to the Government, man may wish to invest, order to take advantage which, according providing easily others, and have invested each such person $10,000, the proviso in the Bill.

is he can and relatives in the name of thereby defeating only for the small investor, find a number of persons, In I heard an hon.

Member remark that we cannot avoid that.


Our argument is that or in interest earned on any type of secu,-ity, the any forn1, being income not derived by sweat of the brow - by labour - should be subject earned income.

income should attract taxation labourer the People's tax legislation of office, made a distinction income and unearned income.
to a tax higher than that imposed on In other words, this kind of a higher rate of income of the That is why Party, in all of the than the ordinary or any other worker.

during its term between earned it introduced Progressive I listened to the Minister a short while this Amendment for the small man and he implied to the small investor.
is ago when he said that provides an opportunity to invest in these securities, in his speech th;:.t this exemption �s a concession side of the House, say that this no such thing.

As a matter of fact, the can put itself Government being able to go to the Statue Book and say: '.
'Here we have a law which encourages investment the same time, enables We, on this exemption by the small man, and which, at the small man to have of in the position I criticised the Government, with resr ct that tax, when it reduced tax : tes were the same income rates which we had to a low flat rate.

The the capital gains insignificance in order to backers to the capital gains tax from the progressive introduced, progressive rates which were applied in other countries.
They have not only reduced tax t o v i r t u a I help their wealthy but they have also inserted Amendment gains made on speculation will, if the Minister to tax.

We are against and we think they are calculated enchance wealthy, position to the economic position of the in the It is and to cause a deterioration of the masses of this country.
thinks fit, not be subject all these deviations, a provision whereby in this any capital in these securities, and supporters, 10'' Bills -Second Reading 26th October, 1967 Certificates and Savings Treasury Savings Bonds rank class legislation oppose the Clause in the amending Bill which seeks to discriminate in this fashion.

and we will have to 2.45 p.m.


This IS The people who of t h�obligation act has Taxation grave financial down since this Government The fact is that at the moment, and indeed for some time, the Government has been experiencing That is well known, yet every conceivable of this Government has been to cause a reduction in the revenue.

can pay have been relieved to do so, and that is why the Government has to borrow continually.

been whittled assumed office.

increased charges masses in the country.


the masses?

Because shifted by this Government wealthy to the poor.

It is because shift that measures of this nature.

support mobilize means to meet the interest which, in turn, falls mainly the tax burden Why does it fall on borrowing Increased taxation has been on the It does not see its the lot o improve Therefore we Government.

which should of th is country.

alternative Clause 2 ( 1) House.

but to oppose th of the Bill no difficulties.


Mr. Luck: I well recall pr�·�t.

�m dial debated the Treasury Savi.

,.ce Bill, 1965 we were told that t.cr·(J.

.ti from income tax therein be applied the savings c ircumstances, provision to make interest investment the country, was unwarranted I have been doing to a narrow range:,l>f �ifi_dlt, , .• · I , amh'l'hat( certificates, .

· .

i:he ·• · ·� � .

, : .,•such would lead ta ch.ac:>s in .

.

': the criticism, tax-free, to nominally bonds tax-free.
cents on the dollar.

We would willingly Let us sa\fli is , .

we take strong exception Under this scheme anybody witfr/o.

:­ to for development.

from the of this to any measure which is calculated resources lend:;:/ I had to ��se a:;'/ his hol411g s ··· · lfe � $2 5 0 a mond*: tJt,' $75 to put Government ought to have - I would to end fiscal in favour of the wealthy.

some calculati� find out the effect of making iiivest�l!
in· Government all tax-free; people who have mon� .. t•' are normally within the tax range paying ; /: seventy friend of mine to liquidate because, on an investment of $2S, Before I take my seat, I should like to was receiving offer some advice to the Government.

If it out of that he was only getting wishes to b ring about any improvement in his pocket.

the lot of the masses of this country - and spare cash would be constrained any responsible securities Government because the terms �.
this as one of its main objectives so clearly advantageous u r ge t h e Government person who invests $25,000 in these discrimination securities would also urge it to treat capital tax-free and for earned income and to tax it, not at higher on any other investment, rates than earned income, a true and correct return of all his income, rates as earned income, he would have to invest over $60,000.

concession.
concession.

slight our income tax laws; I say it is not defending objectionable e xe mption which is stem, but so long as it is the law it must be incorporated in the Bill.

It was wrong in the upheld.

first place for the principal Ordinance, was passed on April 30, 1965, to have such a provision.

The provision was only in respect are f urther reducing including tax.

the most penal in all the world.

We probably are not discussing the rates are right or wrong.
I have my own views on them, but will open the to seek to create exemptions floodgates device A well-known to avoid death duties is to buy Government but at the same and this is making a I urge it to remove this the tax base by in the capital gains him to make $2,000 a·year assuming that was dealt with of income tax.

Now they would receive $2,000 a year The income tax laws of this country are this concession to the investQI'.

to rascality.
to rascality.

to invest in whether gains as which he makes I am .,, I A I ask my hon.

Friend, the Minister of '.

·,.:.

, Bills -Second Reading TrP11sury Savings UCKJ ,114�.J .. 26th October, 1967 Certificates and Savings '14 Bonds seanties which are transferable.

It is a t is we�l use?

and abused by the .

� •.

tba .

... i: .

!�Y .

�asses m this country.

.

.

�.!

.Jl./�• bonds, these Treasury are the securities This is not this Government's Government lives beyond its means.
Every cent that it raises by begging, or by taxation is wasted.

intention.

by borrowing 1tpfti� &�nt �ealthy now hold in an effort to of de�th duties and in this are opening the floodgates to �- • _ � ... .

· ; .

... · , J.

",titerate)IJly belief In �:)la� ln':"e effects diti�, JG.,4,taising has hef effc;_,;:� and a thoughtful person must lmit that di'e.

rate of tax in this country _ _ ,·J�···h 70 cents in the dollar , _.,'w q - that it might well be argued .
"· ' ' initiati� that the income tax on our economy.

that .

· e rates act as a disincentive --one reaches and'enterprise.

every tax revenue, is to Thati·'i9!

!·.not the position heid by this GovcllQmCRt.

This Government does not seek; on the basis of a re-examination of our It on people with structure, to get a new tax structure.

\�Jis to confer benefits .

.

':�� Who would invest in a mortgage by the 8 per cent tax-free Who would lend money even Finance.

when he is offered G�vernment?


with 15 per cent interest?

tax-free because wo�ks out to rather more than 26 per cent.

sector will Qune clearly wither and die.


then, the private I ask that question to a wealthy man 8 percent If the intention was to make the public then in favour of this, is to meet running of an extravagant sector strong and to make it expand, there might be an argument but where the intention expenses with t hen we are saddling posterity with en�rmous debts and giving it nothing which to pay them.

This Government is but to meet money not to invest, borrowing Who cannot see that this is current expenses.
a ruinous Government, course?

A govermnent > n'quid cash.

this?

Some of What will be the effects of - possible quite rightly - in of us .

believe �emment control and ownership does not believe i,ldustry.

This Government k· that; it believes It ·is borrowing The directors in Government on terms which are spending.

ruinous.
ruinous.

of companies .� the returns from any form when they weigh of investment as a g a i n s t the returns offered by the to Government and what invest in Government securities will be the effect of this?

Credit in sector will be choked, it will be the private cut off at source.

must find it very attractive is not different from a individual had to he would person.
If a private private borrow at 20 per cent interest soon find that he had to borrow from somebody else to pay that interest and very soon he would have to pay 30 per cent interest many gentlemen become.

It is similar exemption a severe besides warning to those of us who are compelled to pay tax that we should try to avoid it someltow.

2.55p.m.

as so until he became bankrupt opposite are prone to The of so much money from tax, with a government.
its other effects, must act as a we must create and therefore must share the burden of says that it believes May I say that a good case can be where money flows into the private This Government that free enterprise development situation sector.

made out for adopting approach, the private into the public sector if it 1s the intention create a strong economy owned Government that is, choking off money from so that it is compelled sector the opposite to go to That, however, and the public.
by both We will have to try and avoid it because for their opposite are tax payments then, if my friends friends quite clearly, something will have to be done.

ways of avoiding creating Assuming that the wealthy decide to stay they apparently, in this country to invest in are moving - they will cease anything else other than Government securities.

- because, ls that, I repeat again, the 101 Bills -Second Reading26th October, 1967 Treasury Savings If a man of this Government?
taken valued at $200,000, when he dies intention holds a property with his other assets, together his death duties may well amount to several hundred thousand is getting property.

is only equivalent $1,000 per month rent from this Because he pays tax, that $1,000 dollars.

Let us suppose to $300.

he by d are transferred certificates will happen?

This is how I can wealthy people who have d" because the vaults of banks with Government securities or trustee; need executor passed over.
These are bearer Let me read Section 9 Ordinance: shall " 9.

Certificates transferred by delivery, manner ... " not only by delivery, be simplest way, but in such oth · " ,'i: ;.

;,, to investing The Government will Everybody will soon move over from in private businesses investing with the Government.

say that this shows confidence.

Far from showing confidence The people are learning: be, "I would invest because I have to pay income tax."
This is the reason why the The Government's people are buying the bonds not in the hope that they will get their money back, but they will pay their tax with it.

would securities are selling.

it shows bankruptcy.

the attitude There is a provision on here which is put this income here that in as a sop.
It is stated tax exemption proviso to Section 8: shall not apply -- I quote the - not possible, "Provided that no order under this section shall apply of ten thousand dollars certificates held b y any person."

to any amount in excess in respect o f will carry income of all these bonds and so, no bond may exceed $10,000 Therefore, no certificate if it is in excessof $10,000.
tax exemption Ordinance under which this The Principal Bill comes before this House allows the transferability while initially in total, will be inevitable will buy through agents, and indeed through s persons may have these bonds.

A man may garnish - there is nothing to himself worth of these bonds.
$� million it people - that the wealthy dummies, who it is very possible necessitou through to stop him - This Government, accustomed as it is to the issues and fooling its beclouding knows that t. is thing is a sop.

I supporters, presume that when the certificates will make an order that these the Minister are exempt from income tax certificates u nder the l a w. There is complete transferability.

Indeed, these bonds and are issued made under this ask th� hon.

Ministe{�t f .

.
Ministe{�t f .

.

8, ... as may "' regulations I will _ the nme bemg - because Minister Government proviso.

This is a demagogic to delude the ign orant.

.

, .

·· .

.this � inJ' · 't for all the port£ .

.

This Government goes furthir: , ·· · �- ·, - what is the for J,S � p i ·;·, · · .

be·:;�'11Pl:,.

.. that these certificates gains tax.

The Go� :.· ;( provides from even capital and an.

knows it is wrong, dangerous, and so it puts in this safegu ard: ·, ·�.:;;.

.
.

in e� .... , i of ten thousand dollars in respect ''·c,fi section shall apply to any amount that no order under'-� "Provided !

'.

1 ·· ·•· , -·� • certificates held by any person."

that these prescribe transferable nobody has to put his name· on are tax exempt.

Since these only by are freely At the moment of issue of the certificaicsi the certificates will certificates certificates delivery, them.
Indeed, are bearer Once Government securities income transferable securities unless tax will never get a cent because, somebody has to put his name as owning them and sign ing for the interest, he will them.

never declare this thing is a mere humbug.

by delivery, What about cases of death?

The vaults in the banks of this country are bulging with Government declare were Government clared.

that on the death of no person at all ever de­ bearer securities securities.
I would venture to · Bills -Second Reading 26th October, Treasury Savings 1967 Certificates Bonds and Savings )18 to · make "my position m this "te clear.

I am all for arguing, aad discussing whether this whole ··· ation helps this country or not.

ons as to the own reservati having a system of taxation - there are some 1�.

t• pay their tax .

•1 .

is so.

clearly penal that if people were �" �o�1'v� y that the Government must � .
m\ite i&t I do not think they are ·<'>�fly, paying - the whole position would "·�nt.

,There would not be so many to pay my � i,;.

� the road.

I am struggling Olf.

Jff Pcannot own a car.

( 1' ,:i:rh :' ·all - I �apolog'etically .ii'> wh.eatier this kind of tax is good, but so w� must observe it.

I� is we!l �· .. �,ti it �xists say it publicly IS - for a frank discussion 'J .

Ministers' emoluments, ).

'knciwn, that makmg these exemptions .

· wrong.


When we debated Ministers' salaries, and I calculated them· for this House, it was discovered that of a salary in was in receipt one' gentleman excess of $4,400 and I said then, as I say ,l}Ow, that anybody who has studied :,taX laws would realise income t::;f' create exemptions, -·� Why should a man who has ready cash be that it is wrong to for where does it end?

.. ,.

exempted from paying income tax whereas - I am sorry the the poor school-teacher hon.
Member Mr. Sancho is not here -who has no sick leave at all, no pension, has to pay?

If a school-teacher has to go to the alms-house.

That is his position.

no leave, gets sick, he 3.05p.m.

in a The private firms have taken the private firms are in the same position.

The matter is now in the Coun.

The judges are involved.

issue to court but I cannot hear a thing about it.

I do not know what is the position.

This matter of income tax is a very difficult matter.
I know a fellow who was living house rent free and when he sought to leave this country the income tax authorities him that they valued the house at $480 a month and that worked out at nearly $4,000.

It is the same thing with the judges, They arc claiming they must pay $60 a month and the balance of their house is rent free.

The income tax take the view that they must authorities value the occupancy of the house and add it to their salaries pay a considerable pay tax, let us all pay.
and on that the judges would amount.

If people must that under their contract, told Putting that aside, I want to warn this a situation that accrue from Government high rates of interest investment funds are to the Government because of and there will be no money left for and indeed, that is the position.
Over and over I have had to of Government that if it creates where · all available channelled the exceptionally advantages securities, the private sector, present advise my friends - we have directors insuranc positive that at 8 per cent tax free, that is securities g outside at 19 per to investin equivalent "14 cent.

[An hon.

Member (Government): per cent.

"1 Let us split the difference and say 15 per cent.

How can one expect money to run into the private sector when Government pays such a high rate?
here - that I am quite if one can invest in Government e companies These fellows have to pay income tax on Some of us pay at every cent they work for.

We pay the same rates as men very high rates.

pensions, sick leave who have gratuities, rights and all kinds of benefits, but the law is difficult so why make new categories I realise of exemptions?

and it has to be difficult, The judges of this country object to paying income tax for the houses occupy.
They do not want to pay and the they May I say that my objection to development at this rate to invest in and if at all it is it is wa.<;ted and even Dr. Government paying this rate is that we are borrowing money infrastructure invested, Davenport, Government, investment repay itself positively made by this Government can under 40 years.
I say that as a matter of sound economic the economic adviser to this would be able to say that no l .9 Bills -Second Reading26th October, Savings Treasury 1967 Certificates anµ Sa Bonds Certain investments knowledge.

repay themselves the meantime, and 26 per cent .

do not under 40 years and in the Government is paying 15 may, by "The Minister that in respect certificates of.
any· p .. :" I wish to emphasise the words• I continue to rea d: ... no income tax squeeze certain kind against of I learnt May I say that there is a credit people?

Some people simply cannot get and that you but I ask again, a certain that to my horror.

This ought not to surprise anybody.

money to borrow.

If you speak properly you will get, assuming cordially, have the proper connections, Is it to what is the plan of this Government?
so attractive make Government investments th at everybody goes into investin g in Government Bonds?

Another argument that has been on money, was a large public· by all text-book in the Bible and since the time economic debt is the argument advanced against advanced by the hon.

Dr. Jacob that unearned income, interest condemned of the Bible, the discussion is in on as to whether the usurer's with the laws of God or with the accordance laws of mammon.
As a realist, I do not condemn interest - money - but ifwe created unearned income provides then surely, private income, a nation of parasites.

paying rent for hired where a situation the bulk of has been going practices Provided that no order�· shall apply to any amotplt in.

thousand dollars in reapec.t o : held by any person".

·.

· .II, advisers It is clear that the certificate.s:�··au:-.

:Ni& exemption.

No income tax �pt in respect When the certificates be under $10,000; '.

·; � ,,; .
·; � ,,; .

), , , ... of a particular issue-i>{�;' are i� thqr But Section 9 -and this is�e �ii�: "Negotiability of Certificat es" � states t:ftat?'

shall be �le; c;,f -�' "Certificates transferred by delivery' manner as may be prescribed made under this Ordinance.'.
,-,·\··; or itf; -< _c;,thc by �on box in the Royal Bank of CanadWd:>'\•,, we are creating We want in this country men of courage has to create ILmusL look at the national skill and one does not and entrepreneurial get these by paying interest to a few.

The a hardworking Government society.

debt and try to see that the income accruing to Bonds does who own Government persons of the total not form too high a proportion in the community.

earnings, become pensioners, what must become of us?
There are many rich people around because their fathers money in Government 3.15 p.m. left them a lot of securities.

If we should all are capable of the word "dc;ri�•· is a legal tcr��' What is the meaning Here, the word "delivery" art.

If a father gave the key of his· ,-ft:, deposit his son, I would submit that that •viJP­ That is tne delivery of the certificates.

position.

Certificates by delivery transferred prescribed the Ordinance.
"delivery" has a special deliver not think he has any now - and say: "All right, Rudy, take all that is inside", that would be delivery.

If my father were to the key of his iron safe to me - I do by the regulations I reiterate in this Section meaning.

that the word is a term of art.

It or as may be made under of being What then is the meaning of this In conclusion, Minister let me once again ask the for the time of Finance, present being; What is the meaning of this proviso?

Why was it put in?
Why was it put in?

I will now read the whole thing: was safegu ard against the limitation?

put in as an alleged rascality I do not want anybody to go away with the impression which we say is implicit that I feel 'that the people in this I assume that this limitation in this Bill.

,/!ills -Second Reading Certificates and Savings Treasury Savings 26th October, 1967 Bonds • '2 He does not know depth in this matter.

about delivery delivery-of cows.


of securities, he knows about Mr. d' Aguiar it is not a personal matter.

hear that Banks bonds are in But that more taxes I say positively I do not want to attack Id pay more taXes.

I do not dy to go away with the at I am saying •d on the wealthy.

I said over •t the risk of some loss in �.,, debate the wisdom of having on*1 ipresent scale.

cfe .. so .. , .

people who call for more taxes t'iibi� �se th� are not paying .. bly 1 so I �ca ,( !,;:18'-t, .
believe this and I make no saymg so.

As long as the taxes �l··· ��'e Limited If the government industries this matter; we will soon transferable Breweries delivery.

bonds, private The Government from the companies, limit of its collections.

the Government tax-exempt bearer right for private severe from income tax in this country companies drop will be reflected by delivery-.
but that will be the I say positively that if is right in creatin g bonds, it would also be to do so, and a in the revenues t will be transferable by creates will do the same .

will get its 45 per cent bearer The stock of Banks .

n.Minister of Finance should .. : .

lbjs''Bill is filled with danger.

n · '.

we debated the principal Bill, I e · ·'lie ;w.erc told that the exemption ,1:in ·tax was merely in respect ,ar .. �\fpotributions :ion .lrcxplain .

�mer .ion if conferred, ,.

th'.t··ccrtificate, .


��ad ·the Section �t to take advantage of , and that there was a where the limitation again because I do not $10,000.

I �· · "The Miruster may, by order, declare Gentleman.

He is out of his depth.


I read: .J.,�,;' that in respect of any particular issue of I ·certificates, no income tax or capital gains tax shall be chargeable or pn:mium paid to the holder of any certificates or on any capital gains accruing ' to him by reason of any transaction on any interest in ,·!

.

#�' of the hon.

I want to say that this income tax is a stern thing, and if it is applied men will study it.

You are inviting ask the Minister business is.


Tax with too much sternness, not on the holder of how to subvert I subversion of income tax.

Every man will make himself into a company and he will make the ownership subject studied you got shares; into stock and the� you got bearer stock.

is a simple But this Government gone one 3.25 p.m. stock.

of that company to bearer stock.

Anybody who law would know that in the old days them It has bearer matter.
step further and created then you consolidated but on the certificate itself.

n:spect of them: Provided that no order under this section shall apply to any amount in excess of ten thousand held by any person."

dollars in respect of certificates 10W But once the certificates income tax exemption certificates.

are issued, the is conferred on the if the gentlemen I want to k would say tL.t this is wrong.

Or they could have bearer debentures.

Government effect of that?


Is this what the What would be the is inviting?

opposite Now, one last matter in relation to death are very I can tell this that already Government are fo;ming in this country of before people will duties.

I know that death duties stem, and that we need a programme ·education come to accept that they must properly It is the law of the land their death duties.

and if you live in a country, you must respect its laws or you must be taught, somehow, to respect the hon.
Minister persons a lot of Every 70 per cent man is making into a company.

I am going to study in the Deeds Registry thoughtful companies.

himself the statistics quite sure that companies number created man" I mean the man who is paying 70 per cent to the Government as income tax.

The them.

The truth is that of Finance is out of his last year.
By "70 per cent created this year will be twice the and I am pay I will find that the number of 1r !J Bills -Second Reading 26th October, 196 7 Treasury Savings is now inviting to bonds ..

This is a valid point and I Government buy bearer hope that the Minister his mind to it and let us have an answer.

such persons of Finance will direct What is the meaning of the provision that worth Ordinance, 196S Certificates than six months aft«!r the date to money would be allocated This is the law.
The Director that not only this mo stated money in the sinking fund, other members of the Committee will tell you, no man must have more than $10,000 of these bonds when the free transferability of these bonds is made and negotiability Will he not admit that the possible?

provision Will is meaningl he also admit that when he framed this piece necessary of legislation have such a provision?

How bare-faced can this Government ess and valueless?
it was thought Mr. Deputy Speaker: second refcrcn� Director of Audit.

I h* quoting from it.

, -l' ' t; .. .. Mr. Luck: I would ask tno; of Finance to assure this.·H to the .· to we were told that this was only get?

When we debated the Principal Ordinance for a narrow range of savings certificates, namely, , t h e l o a n s certificates.

told us that safeguards Government constructed around this scheme.

Now it comes with this.

I want the hon.

Members to explain The were the meaning of this .


There is one other question.

We are told that such money fund yet the Ordinance to a sinking in the Principal is to be allocated report of the Director money in the sinking priated debating is said in the Principal states: to general Treasury of Audit reveals that fund has been appro­ Since we are certificates, let us see what Section Ordinance.

e.:-penses.
e.:-penses.

7(1) � provision for the creation ,r· a� follow,4, laa•• is being scrupulously replies in an ill-informed £ca:} him that I have examined 1!he by the Bank of Guyana, ilhtcit institution under this ,Mncqdij manage the sinking fund, _.-:f- �hat the sinking 1s nowhere mentioned no provision and there is no reft� · · a. to it.

Where is this money?

· .

.

''.�1_.

, •�; .· the absence fund is sunk.

/liiu.· '.·.�.

in the report.

.. .


, from "The Governor shall appropriate the revenues and assets of British Guiana in each half-year during the currency of each issue of certificates reasonably adequate sinking fund for the redemption of the with the c e rt ificates in accordance and the first of this Ordinance, provisions contribution fund shall be to the sinking made six months after the date of issue."
such amounts as are for the formation of a The Director of Audit has reported that fund has been the money in the sinking wrongly appropriated expenses Government does not have the liquid its disposal We borrow more_ u,J more money.

at to cover the monef already of the Government to the general ·and that the spent.

assets There have been several issues of certificates under the Treasury Savings � t, I regret for sinking and obc�-4"­ There is wisdom in this�·· .. of my fr=· · ·· Pr we have .c.U.
• · " } s� .

of principles Richmond.

Although po�tical views he made a brilliant the,observance laws.

That is what we arc here for.

· here to make laws and to sec that th · _, ·· .,,_;,.... obseivcd.

for a sinking fund.

All countries mal[e funds and the funds are provision kept separate It is no answer, if that is the answer this Government may mix up the money.

A trustee may not intcrmcddle principle; what this Government is Minister funds that relate already knows it, but this is doing.
I ask the to tell us where to find the sinking funds.

This is an elementary that have to the certificates that the Government from other moneys.

every solicitor been issued.

gives, The law prescribes , and rightly fund.

Throughout prescribes, the world we being made, and once a law is found in many countries it find this provision for a sinking Bills-Second Reading 26th October and Savings , 1967 Certificates Treasury Savings Bonds law.

That is a view of the law law, It is natural .

most deeply.
most deeply.

'•, if we can find it throughout 1;bc provision J, pid this Government ., Pf.Ovision relating for a sinking fund has not to a sinking ; • .

;.i� .• : ' �--kc \he hon.

Minister of Finance ly ,, .�'this and to tell me where this ·< �-·the Bank of Guyana does .

, ,,_; " ��1�•,: ·;'( .,.4"J· conditions ThQIDd!

The Bill that is before us 't tQ• ,grapple with the ti-J'�\h,is country today.

There has on the �itr.

;'a l�t of hair-splitting .

ption from income tax and .

J!


:1:6 of � J�jains ·tax, but what hon.

Members fJ,ilCd to realise it.will be competing on the market private ii idle other securities, is that Government ,.,,.Aonal, short-term .�.E{i,� it is necessary ,nce,utvc as.

possible so �"¥:� public may to '� arc the best securities to hold.

or and to give as much to the investing make up its mind as or long-term, public :.Hfl�·,._1,r l.#·'�7- ' �· : .

;,·,.

.

· /Ufifonunately, .�ty tight.


As you may know, there is the market today is _;.

;:�) $4.93 million 1 · ni�ey right now: d' Aguiar competing for the investors' Bros., • ,i asking for Limited is the Government is and Bookers making a total of asking for $1.68 million; $2.5 million; asking for $.

75 million, You have got to offer the $4.93 million.
investor value for his money and if you are going to tell him that you can offer only five, six or seven per cent taxable, he will tell you, "Thank you very much but you can �eep it."

[Mr. Luck:.

"How much tax are you offering now?")

That is not mentioned in this Bill so the question · {Laughter./ does not arise.
· .in the capital To be less frivolous, if we are to compete which is a very tight market at the moment, and offer five or seven "pc:r cent taxable, no sensible investor market, will inflationary security; ease of negotiating In other security his at all.

When a man invests steady and of at all.

The other touch our security important factor which we must remember is that a Government has no growth potential money he looks for three things: income growth; transferring easy liquidity.
words, if he is short of ready cash he must be able to go to the market and borrow money on his security.

security income security pressures as prices rise, and since the trend .

in the twentieth prices, then Government secunues very poor second to the ordinary security.

and if there are then the value of income will fall has this weakness, century has been steady rising Now a Government it is a fixed come a business What is worrying me is this constant value.
a security on the capital at an increased gains tax, on the to give money to the few rich, or harping tendency the idle rich.

It has also been said that unearned income must be taxed.
It is a fair argument which I will grant; but capital gains can only come when you give up or transfer that there Now I cannot see the argument will be wholesale transfer of Government stocks for capital because the prices gains, will hav� to fluctuate Government very seriously margin for capital t e Although small, almost limit has been put here as a safety - measure and probably - in practice to be got from Government as a sweetene there is not much capital r, I do not know gain gain would be very very infinitesimal.
in the market; securities se<;urities.

of course, if you buy below Sometimes, of par, that is, if you buy $100 stock for $90 you will get and you hold it l� maturity $100, then that $10 would be capital gain; but even that is small in comparison with shares or securities, the prices of which fluctuate market.

very remarkably on the capital What Members on the opposite side also fail to realise $10,000 used at the discretion limit has been put there and will be of the Minister.
is that the safeguard If of therefore, the l«Y' Bills -Second Reading 26th October, 1967 Treasury Savings in for wild speculation there is a teq.dency has the Government the Minister stocks, Remember right to remove the exemptions.

this is not to be for all time.

It gives the Minister the discreti the exemption I argument cannot see this hair-splitting being gains and income put forward on to apply or remove as he sees fit.

Therefore, about capital businessme m · of.


'investing and what have you, find all the private and, instead capital in Government securities will net them or gross them,· look at it, 14 per cent or 15 p that you should have much skill of y · in the business They would not touch • investment.

,.

tax exemption.

at 8 investors.


I am Bank Breweries in terms of insurance companies, I would not Ltd., or any of the The other factor which we must remember is that of institutional investors" '"When I say "institutional thinking banks and other finance houses; consider c ommercial business they are not really and selling spare cash they have to put away in such institutional stocks; are the people of the money as far as capital concerned.

to make most gains are money.


They are just using any as institutional in the market for buying and, therefore, who are likely investors investors because h ouses or manufacturing I feel, therefore, that the insurance the hard-earned of the investors.

I will now revert In this h is shrewd, I on the opposi.

argument.

bargaining gentlemen what means they would:, attract pockets 3.45p.m.

They can tell me right n they would use to bring line with investing know!
would be able to pick and good Government business That is th security.

will want which the investors to shout empty phrases·.

G overnment being ban '.'

spend-thrift, while at the same;_ that people invest in terms.

contradiction in the Go · · securi investors, may make a capital c o m panies, w h i c h a r e the largest institutional profit, across but since this money is spread the rank and file of the population, everybody argument about capital rich.
then So I cannot see the gains going to a few gets a share.

who are People to invest are really at 8 per cent and dreaming.

in large amounts are very inco which will deve Hon.

Members who made the point about people going into Government stocks, stocks buying Government 10 per cent and moving off from private security, likely astute businessmen invest which Government Opposition Therefore Government people are moving to buy securities, sign that they have confidence in the It is as simple Government.
Mention was made that what not Government Bonds which wi fixed income or an assured skill entrepreneurial economy fast.

Again we see a contra in political the}"' arguing that the profit motive shoul there; there then the political s omething e lse.

Ent repreneurship necessary, entrepreneurship, is profit.

he will not invest House to ignore other side and accept and they would not stocks all their money in Government to the - according - is likely to be bankrupt.
I agree, but the reward foro/ · the reward for taking these gentlemen all the credit risks ' .

does not see profit, are giving the because if these and if the profit motive philosop If an investor philosophy philosophy all fanciful phrases because it is a I beg the .

and, therefore, from the • this Bill.

{Applause.J-: for the loud• -I·• my remarks.

am grateful Mr. Hubbard: I applause that has preceded The argument it is put forward as that.

does not hold at all when that, before long, you will l.Jil.'.
�ills -Second Reading 26th October, 1967 , · 'il' Treasury Savings Certificates and Savings J � �O Bonds ;,,.

-RD] hoped that when I shall have ing, the hon.

Members who that applause [Hon.

Members : .

"It was not for you."]

will at I have said.

This fiscal ·-� has b:c?


brought forward to _ t,.._t M1mstcr of Fmancc (Dr. ti whl:h was possibly the brain ·of� "'e "Duke of Plazatoro," the ·:.l':!l-�ho now leads his party from of Fi?ance rthc previous Minister me an op�ortum� to � iar), gives _ mie.·observanons, to which, I thmk, �nt and the public at large �iv<i_-�at deal of attention.

of Finance once said that ,t;x-Ministcr oping (it:>Untries like Guyana were to pl"\Vard, · then all policies must be j 'to maximising profit.
Well, we it�t · philosophy to come from the !ster of and it was echoed at Versailles of and ordered Governor that the granting in pay, but the British to men at Diamond of the estate the Manager what he had already told the increase this land, who considered of an increase to cane cutters was an incitement elsewhere, to withdraw men he would give.
That was the condition of our colonial When people organised, even on the temporary basis of a strike, more out of conscienceless from abroad, they got bullets and as they movt;d down from Ruimveldt, those who were shot were put in a cart and brought to Georgetown where the people revolted of it all.

This was our colonial at the horror existence.

to get a little existence.

exploiters up, Davsons and swallowed We had no income tax in those days.
to write and say, There was no secretary "We exempt you from income tax."

Bookers and the Demerara Company and all those whom Bookers Garncns, did not have to pay income tax.

And how are we going to develop our country?

We arc going to develop our c o u n t r y b y supplementing these conscienceless absentee absentee entrepreneurs.

3.55p.m .

landlords by more Finance ·.e.rdiY bJ the Governor of the Bank of a.na, .

�different terms, but the two 1�arc of the same philosophy and �� p the same god.
��t us to see what this Government • ;:gjJ!a the context of our own history.

out of the condition We of is climbed ,ta:vc;,/Julst serfdodl which was colonialism ting conditions ' actu.all)t re-crea and we arc of �rfdom Critchlow, �- 'Which men like Cuffy, Accabre, Jagart, Burnham and others, Carter, did much to destroy.

even Martin What was the ·, economic foundation of this colonialism and finally which we set out to destroy threw away on the 26th May, 1966?
It was a condition where maximisation of profit for �bsentcc purpose landlords of all governmental was the central aim and policy.

To illustrate this, I shall refer to the pages of history in the days when the Daily Chronicle was a respected 1905, in this country, sugar workers staged for improved wages.

The Manager Versailles, that he would give his cane cuners an organisation.

In and there was unrest a country-wide who wanted his canes cut, agreed strike of Pln.
We arc going to give them the freedom in from capital Bookers, after 1953, to called hedges in other its lands into cash and then create from income tax which they enjoyed colonial times, the freedom gains which enabled convert what Campbell countries Nige ria, Canada, Britain, Holland gains from Guyana.
Lands held on leases for thousands our $4,400-;,-month Attorney-General kindly made them a gift ori Independence that the lands held on leases at pleasure became lands with virtually freehold at 5 c an acre were sold an acre, and then -with capital terminable of dollars title.

What arc we doing further?

In the old times, as I said, you could not even organise to hold a strike.
Council surrende Now the Trades Union would to is pondering r the workers of this country legislation which 1( Bills -Second Reading 26th October, 1967 Treasury Savings Certificates and Sa Bo"'Js these rapacious way as in 1905. people in exactly the same 4.35p.m.

On resumption Mr. Deputy Speaker: - Mr. Hubbard can continue ,o·· The h Mr. Hubbard: seems to have absented remainder time being.

of the Government sympathy continue of this sitting, Since he is o of' than the otllers, "�' for whOJJi.
The Demerara Bauxite Company paid for $33 million and fields, $5 million to make them increase miners from the villages and they only worth of diamonds, in royalties.

who hold lavish gentlemen hunger and privation who went to the diamond of last year and we in royalties manufactured $54,000 alumina cannot do anything it.

But our local the rivers suffered produced they had to pay $89,000 are not rapacious entertainment parties their income tax bills.
and they had to pay nearly double the amount paid by DEMBA, for only $5 million worth of diamonds.

was a 25-year handed it.

comes and says that we must give these people more Of course, we are in a country of bats rights.

each of us must become a and consequently, from overseas.
for a vampire fit subject tax freeze because Reynolds Then this Government and write them off They risked DEMBA enjoys their lives They of a by was guilty to compare of fact finding T he e x-Mi nister o f Economic and who is now in business, reality.

policy of $5,000, that he When a man buys an an of a logical error.

He life insuraqce of bonds issued read him a lecture Development who is a promoter this afternoon attempted worker with a purchase the Government.
I have to because he is so far from his school has forgotten insurance estate paying his instalments; guaranteed to his heirs and immediately.

Government $5,000, Thomas: "That is not your line."]

the hon.

Member was in error, that he fell into further followed his statement.

developed or if they are debentures -[Mr. -so that and it errors as he he creates so long as he keeps of $5,000 an estate successors But in order to get $5,000 in securities, he must purchase for his family Mr. Deputy Speaker: Hon.
Members, is suspended it is until now 4 p.m.

This sitting 4.30 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 4 p.m. k of coloni which remove; .

_', , T� -�., .•.. conditions io·: -:­ i� the:,� to lambaste his disco Comir.g back to the Bill.

the provisions the rich.

I see these things�� of colonial apparent movement areas of production.

nothing more than the r•orati°' whole apparatus control basis, to allo of the people of .

plunder speakers on that side of the , .


man's pa about the little capitalisation in the develop country through income tax or capital gains tax.

w a s unwise enough to SU: could participate.

everybody the remote areas in the Nq I visit - the hon.

Mr. Cheeks or some·.

Minister repair 4.40p.m.

We find that in these places the producers have become so poor that they lack money Thtfy with which to do their purchasing.
have to put their boats in their little produce those boats to the nearest or the and paddle friendliest for what they shops and barter need.

always goes behind me to tly'fUJ the damage but they never succcedtd.

bonds which"d ..

I Those are the persons who could benefit of the concessions in respect of Government bonds or What js by tax-free purchase Government savings certificates!
happening of losing means of livelihood, to them is that they are in danger their means of production, their the land which they till.
1/ills -Second Reading 26th October, 1967 Certificates and Savings Bonds · J4 ' Treasury Savings rnment issued a White Paper s saying that the money spent drainage and marketing was 'd , and therefore these people "• g without reaping, because en flooded and their crops He has a new profession; any more; he has sold the pawnshop has now become a duke, the right honourable duke who leads from he is not a usurer behind.

and he criticism.
and he criticism.

with Dr. Reid for having to and to have to submit to If my sympathy is mis­ I sympathise bring this measure the obvious placed then I am satisfied ment is wittingly contriving imperial people.

forced upon them that this Govern­ to provide for the powers the means of exploiting our We assume that in the past this was .

.
.

of Home Affairs is not here, ·115;' like the Bonasika, the .. ' • f1' -� farmers and don't reap along the coast, making representations the wild hogs come along and wild hogs has � �f·.cven .

:�gtqund provisions .

�sc:.

... d,-::-o.f a thousand � a farm there is not a leaf left 'Y.

�nit provisions.

-i)liii.,# .. � t1" Bonasika l'icrit·bad taken four dollars i� �a tcpus licence to .

'.fhere was a case the other day from whom the for a was him 'tgjt to protect He t,jin told that if he wishes he may .
ct the four dollars which he paid to .c:£· but a condition which prohibited his cultivation.

.se' e :is not going to get the firearm -!,'ct·.

's-�ltivation.

'� It is to .

,,.. of piloting to be palpably untrue and what must ' rq suggest that the measure before us is a Jt.· .7· mockery of the meaning of language.

·�""eastire · for the small man is to make say what is palpably he 'known to the Government untrue.

I sympathise not only with the hon.


Member M r. Thomas who had the unenviable experience through this House the worst piece of legislation ever to come before this House in its whole history, a which the most expensive l was responsible for drafting.

pages of Amendments had to be moved!

I am not only sorry for.the hon.

Member Mr. Thomas; I am also sorry for the hon.

Member Dr. Reid -[Dr. Reid: on this side."]

previously held by the Duke of Plazatoro, the gentleman behind when there was fighting.
predecessor who led his troops from His on now.

"We don't need sympathy - who is filling piece of legislation Attorney-Genera Four :foolscap has changed his occupati the role which I should like to say one thing more lest it The hon.

Member Mr. out that this Government well by buying Government to be a compliment be misunderstood.

Luck has pointed is bankrupt.

WeII, we don't have to look for any further proof than the bulletin was issued by the Bank of Guyana and which was a White Paper.

The hon.
The hon.

Member said that men who are paying seventy cents in the dollar as income tax would do themselves bonds.

This was assumed to the Government, to what he said, and this must not be ignored.
The rider was that by doing this in the form of transferable Government which do not draw either capital gains tax or income tax, they were giving nothing since they were, in fact, merely investing the income tax they would save by withdrawing their money from other enterprises, undertakings into Government but Mr. Luck put a rider or investment, and putting bonds, hands.

it There is another lesson for this the rich from taxation in is freeing The road on which we arc Government.
walking, a few jobs the hope that they wiII provide for the poor, this road leads to a dead end, and in the long run, we will be worse off than we were even in the worst days of colonialism.

Government look around, and understand what is happening.

then hustle to mend their ways and to change their whole approach of fiscal policy Let the members of the for an emergent Guyana.
to this question take cognisance, They will Bills -Second Reading Treasury Savings 26th O ctober, 1967 Certificates and Sa Bonds 4.50p.m.

few weeks ago I Mr. Ram Karran: A the Government and I •vas really congratulated who is now piloting making a progressive question this controversial As hon.

Members on this side out, this is not in keeping with which the Government had it is an attempt to go actually think the same Minister this Bill when it was found that the Government move towards capital gains.
have pointed the proposal made and, indeed, b ack t o following the Government's long-standing tradition the pockets of its friends, tanding what the e x-Minister of Economic Development brief speech this afternoon.

.

(Mr. Thomas) had to say in his of putting notwiths money in the· to the .
position, was ne of this country bencher was tramping uttering about a c half-truths - the status financial Even when Mr. Dunc� i renegade, referred Guiana was bankrupt, y the then Minister document, s that historic this Rt.

Hon.

Member Even though in high pla to make out that we were not.

Is it a case of ban the ex-Minister to make d' Aguiar Bros., Limited?

of Fina The hon.
of Fina The hon.

Member m , of The ex-Minister accused us of harping on gains tax, but, surely, the who is now absent must racket the the capital ex-Minister remember the double-your-money instituted ex-Minister Surely, that racket was aimed at putting of the rich friends money into the pockets of the Government.

of Finance (Mr. d' Aguiar).

by the now back bencher, The hon.

Mr. Thomas made the school of time, bonds, certificate that the value will fall wi has not made a prof observation.
Any with the passage values, what have you are bound in the past, that has never from buying t h e s e se Government.

of any company you Government the list.

I think the hon.

unconsciously relegated to the status of a pawnbrokery.

stand a .

securities When you look.

our s Bros., that this Government observation is today with d'Aguiar competing and Limited Bookers for the raising of capital.

This is a shame.
This is a shame.

One would have th�u'ght that this Government would free and independent itself have raised and none of its Ministers or would have harped back on the ex-Ministers days and made a comparison old colonial gn Government and between the soverei d'Aguiar Bookers but to reduce this sovereign nation to the status of d'Aguiar just now, a disgrace.

One can say that by way of comparison Bros., stand a little Limited.

Limited Bros.,· is, as I said , To come back to the question .

:r' said that .
:r' said that .

gains, the hon.

Member are transferred' arise only when securities that is almost infinitesimal.

If these by � are to be bearer bonds, as stated friend and colleague Luck, then there can be no necessity for granting the hon.

Minister dictate capital the Government will bearer who shall have an exemption gains and from income tax because this po to ntom be unable to trace these the hon.

Membet f. bonds.

The hon.

Member Mr. Thomas went on has no security or of and no easy liquidity.
All that is and tradition to say that Government steady income, transferring, so but in all our colonial the time when the hon.

p�wcr -even during Member wjto is now demoted to a back no' ease of negotiating The other point I wish to make is that if it is the Government's intentioq these certificates then it seems to have disregarded altogether the advice of Finance.
As and bonds as bearer bonds, I said, there is absolutely from the officials of the Ministry to issue no � f ; Bills -Second Reading 26th October, Treasury Savings 1967 Certificates and Savings 38 Bonds to allow the hon.

c provision from income exemption ·:grant ·u1 gains accrued to these bonds cause, unless he is a magician, le to trace any of these : "The Government does t o t r a ce them."]

The :Jfoes not intend to trace them are going to � ,r��; �o _ fnows its friends �''-•' · � watch cheese?
safeguard?

.

{).

� ·� is a safeguard.

ember Mr. Thomas said that .

Are you going Who is the He is going to � \ol.i�,t.c;> +dffit·�ds.

/�� �fal!acy that the hon.

Member J.ito .is.

that we on this side are 1 • .

,.

1.to· profit.

It is time that somebody • lie :that the newspapers ori'the·other ·d related ,qp follow the Islamic manki?d· the faith and a�e oppose� t� _ that the Jewish people, and our side have been peddling.

made by md1v1duals agamst ·accent }}·-: ,.


rrs, , g .€ being -:''Y· e are not opposed to profits ,,Je,..bf the community .

.

, ....

I j'M�.m� .�· .· ,�· from a poor a letter I received am' there are thousands Why is the Government against seeking Profit is immoral by individuals :The Government is opposed to the by the community, that is of the every section earning of profit why it emasculated public sector for profit.

when it is operated individuals.

to borrow money on these terms?


Only yesterday, worker, whose money is held by the Commissioner to of Inland refund this money over-collected.

I have had a Motion tabled in this Parliament certain deal with that Motion now but it concerns money held by the Commissioner Members of the Government say Revenue.

they are well off.

They have got loans, grants and gifrs.

people?

Why cannot they pay these who makes no effort recommendations.

I do not wish to of workers Revenue, of Inland making .... .
The system of deduction by the sugar from that earnings is different The crop being so short, the a basis of deduct income tax on amounts from are deducted.

estate authorities e n unciated by the Inland Revenue Department.

sugar estates a short period, so massive these poor people's These people do not work for the whole year - you yourself, experience must live on that.

This money has been lying there for two years.


The income tax authorities day and when they go, they fool them and send them back and the poor sugar keep tramping that the Government these people?

us.

Minister all the time.

Is it has no money to pay I do not know.

Perhaps the in the sugar industry the road will tell workers - and they tell them to come on a particular Mr. Speaker, had We read in the newspapers - and Mr. user of the taxi - that and the has to buy for cash.
They have Rickey Singh did not write this Bookers had closed its account Government closed the taxi service.

We know that the is the biggest Government service and the Government Bookers.

Is this part of the plan to buy cars to help the service.

Government is in serious financia difficulties This is a otherwise, receipt from the London office of he Guyana High Commissioner follows: and if it tells us that it is I have a document.
I know that the and it reads as cannot pay l "22nc �une, 1967 I hereby received the sum of 10d.

for the form from Mr. B. application of an purchase Ramcoomar Singh B. J. E. Watkins" London.

is giving 28 Cockspur Street, This is for a receipt, with a stamp for the High Commissioner's Office, what the Government a piece of paper.

[ Opposition The spelling "Resign."]

is not paying a proper salary.

Government The young lady seems to be semi-illiterate.
wonder whether The Government to buy stationery she has a G.C.E.

certificate.

cannot satisfy Members: shows that the for the London office.

the demands I Bills -Second Reading 26th October, 1967 Certificates and Sa Bonds Treasury Savings Scheme?

• ·; .. :"./:•,ii; A large number ?�.--;-� ,, � ,;- ..

., .

,,t agricultural told us the other day that he new formula to run hospi I should like to know doctors.
this money is going to be used without up of hospitals doct , now changed the tune that t in 1962, 1963 and 1964 Government's have heard the hon.

Mini and the Prime Minister change of policy.

important.

Government respect money that has been ob .

· United States Kingdom is to be used o ?

.

going to be used on the • .

.

the Canje Scheme, or for -� ·.

the Boerasirie What is the ne�.

-� proposes to .IP .. Agricul '.

[ An hon.

Member; "T document."]


ender the that the of this back at the activities from the time it was installed merrily Programme along with the programme has some relatio expenditure.

Looking Government by fraud, one wcmld recognise n Development tq this fund-raising.

of the The improvement East Coast road was begun by the last a dm i nistration.

This Government has continued This by the last Government.
enunciated to was charged work, we will all recall, recurrent We had studied during the term of the last Government, the proposal put forward by interim incompetents, the of Health - I think he is now Minister demoted to that · post - which they had from the United Kingdom.

brought Is it to use part of this loan to carry on intended the work on the East Coast road.

The work that is being done will soon crack up when the bad weather comes.
What is going on is a patching of the the term of office road and this began during under the Head of the previous Recurrent {Intermption.f of which my hon.

Friend, there is good work, but it to agriculture?

HQ� · of America:· control schools.

The hon.

Minister Let us take the question road will be reconstructed.

Government Expenditure.

of the West that we are getting A large numbct -''ciii� Some of th pi ce f r om the United States for rehabilitation and for the of the Wes·t Coast road.
I to say when the When unemployed.

be leaving are employed on the East cJ • ·· i.,.

__ given the boot.

What pr ' ·• Government made to find j<J of F people?

has overall of the ex Coast road.

I understand money ought to get up and tell ·· assistan money is going to be used.

In all seriobs._,.

Government the members of the Opposition � that • improvement th� �nµy -­ the Government should like the Government almost to the brink of insolvency;.
'the West Coast members of the Oppositio are we going to get the Government's it will continue part of this country's philosophy the railway has not The Government part of its population.

denied it up to now.

When are we going to cent that the Government get a complete rehabilitation inside million under the oppressive down, will make it extremely 5./0p.m.

the future generations The hon.

Members who sat in this House for that reason that we not only criticise.
during the term of the last Government these measures, know that clear thinking to state its priority priorities.

We would like the Government way so that we can know how much nioney tell us how much of this money is going to how inuch is going to be used for education, be used for the of the railway.

money is going to be used for drainage and The hon.

Minister irrigation, borrows ofth� country, terms 'that are bid for difficult It:is .

of this country.
of this country.

;i .. � They know that �,ey but we ask the ·;overnmen't in a clear and concise· rehabilitation and Housing of Health n speak foi i� electorate, lays down the to the country or outside and so on.

Tell us now.

andalat$er ·;·�/ as to whether services.

has brought waste every year.

and stop the $2 from -Second Reading Savings Treasury 26th October, 1967 Certificates and Savings ·�2 Bonds Speaker: Hon.

Members, you in that kind of argument.


You that one question for more s.I wish you would come er that is being debated.

: It is not my intention .

except to say that when 'ditions are to be imposed '.

rs for the repayment of n. Minister should give us .. :£.\ £"1. at the Governm�n t has in .

of the Oppos1t10n can & .. � .

nt.

This is our country.

ment takes a cynical view · on, as it is doing, we will ,•ti� � r� tithe deficiencies of the ' � :.

n ::e:u :� t i� e: �: c e «_.

:put ent.


.�1'ftll a view to improvem l�.Meidf,r s of the Government must )f.;.

when we say harsh things l� ithem with a view to improve- and when one sought i·n the trash one before the House.

But, roving went on as usual, was could not find a grain.

The last speaker particularly 5.20p.m.

out to entertain the House.

I was wondering whether it was possibl e to collect an entertainment tax from him at this stage.
[Laughter] If we are to develop this country we must encourage our people to save, a opportunity right quarters used in the development of the country nd we must give them an to channel their savings into the so that such savings may be n has been in A point was made about the transfer of certificates as though this was a new feature.

My friend Mr. Luck did not seem to realise that Section 9 is not being amended today.

Since 1965 this provisio Ordinance No.


12 of 1965 and if it was dangerous, one would have thought that by now there would have been some tangible evidence to bring to this House and say "Be cause o f these things, this has happened".

He has nothing like this to tell us, but stands it is offensive.

It has been in operation for two years and he has no proof.

It is easy to m ake statements, but they must be ed by facts that.

bear them out .
bear them out .

support Anybody can make statements but as long as idencc to support ' · ch there is no ev statements, then this side of the House will not be able to treat with them.

up and tells us it is not good, 0 T he n-:xt point Mr. Luck made concerned ·e sinking fund.

He looked at the bulletin from the Bank of Guyana and he was insisting that something ought to have been recorded in it about the sinking fund.

He says that I know about veterinary medicine.


One thing he is certain about and that is, that I know something, but I wonder whether he knows to read, because he would sec from this Amendment to the Principal Ordinance that we are now giving to the Bank of Guyana the power to hold the sinking fund.

I do not see how it could be mentioned in this bulletin when the Bank of Guyana has nothing to do with it.

If the \P:, urge the removal of these ses that are in the Bill.

Hon.
Hon.

this side of the House have ·c clear that these Clauses are .aid we have no alternative but to • removal.

I do not wish to repeat .

.

ts, but bearer bonds are not ·No official in the Ministry of the Inland Revenue Department o recommend the issuing of bearer I , hose are things of the past.

,the last occasion, the Government J measures before this House in an .to catch capital gains, although it did ·far enough.

What is the object of "ng them here?


I question that, and I the Government to see with the position and remove this offensive � · )Pe.asurc.

·�,: Dr. Reid (replying): As you probably .have realised in this House, I am not gifted the ability to entertain people, even 'when I enjoy some of the entertainment.

I ':;.with •· :.

-.P.°'.b�d lioped, however, that there would have the question which is �· been·arguments against - • 1<.
, Bills-Second Reading 26th October, Savings Treasury 1967 Certificates and Savings Bonds fund "shall No.

12 of 1965 he would see that of the sinking hon.

Member would read Section 7 of Ordinance the management be entrusted to the Crown Agents for O v er se a s G o v e r n m e n t s a n d Administrations".

Amendment, of Guyana involved.

be able to look at this bulletin something about the sinking In Ordinance No.
12 of 1965 the that we hope to have the Bank It is only now, by this In time to come we will to find out fund.

about it.

P�p to buy them and t�.

no compromise encouraged be used in the Development Pr.

People must be rewar labour.

I sometimes wonder· of us who talk about profitS'.

, .-·� that people have to labou�.to ''!c•.

e,� and profits, do nothing, make savings sacrifice.

'and those who"M/Ul .


• must realise sometimes �t :d, ' ./ an a�· We are now offering who save and we are al� participate in the Develop� They are not going to do it>oifiy.£,er·}l they will do it for some·trcftiid.

w. btty i. that the opponunit{To satisfied will not in ;i.;;y way make ·any rich ,•p · a limit.

there for setting We are now putting was wide open.

There was no It is to be 8 is to be changed and a a concession limit.
noted that Settion new clause substituted limit of $10,000 and giving the Minister some control over this.

I know that my does not like to hear about "control".

friend Some of the hon.

Members who are shouting know more than anybody else about loudly, the dodge s, and they themselves are involved.

about what will be discovered in a shon time about themselves and the organisations control.

They are very much worried they a and savings The hon.
Member and Bank Breweries The past Government introduced scheme.

We are giving compulsory people freedom of choice.

referred to Bookers said that we ought not to allow this and that to happen, but if people are to enjoy living in a democracy they must have certain freedom and they must be free to buy bonds certificates and savings Government is not here to control freedoms.

by instituting their lesson.

use that type of scheme to get the same results.


dealing with measures We must know the people we are Those who want to control such people have had is not going to This Government and we must introduce compulsory they like.

wherever savings not to give the .�P.

*t but simply to create1 Therefore we have lU'r' ,..af,ofo\., richer.

offer for making these bonds attracti lce:, come out in a day or tw,.
· · the details this Bill is passed I am certain.��{ will be only too happy to purch� � � b<, before the end of the year.

• t\ ·: Some people go back into th4'3s to l oi,_Ji· this country not to give the p .

.

guidance, enthusiasm, among the people.


bitterness cannot develop th· because needs all the participate cannot get the participation against them without being bitter of my friends on the other side all through their r their bitterness will show it at every opportunity in that people will be stirred, but to resist carried out.

now that Guyana is inde the development This exercise people in this c of pe en not to co-ope . '

in its development, · that is�··· • ,:./ ..

.

:'r .

: :�.· ,-t,," ..


I know that sometimes with which people can work.

The Government is satisfied that on certificates whenever it has put Treasury the market the response has been good.

I sometimes think that the members of the these bonds and Opposition· certificates, We want them to be attractive are afraid of because they are very attractive.
talk, they do so because they have to siij( : something, and they are finding out �hat the;·· more they talk the less they have to sayf·· When my friends started road programme I wondered had forgotten which was an attempt to build a road .. tliat • .. to talk abou.t whether about the Del Conte �oa<t,.. ··•.ri· · ·_t_hey.- � � � when my frien� • : and we make tlie,f.
:;.· 1045 Bills-Second Reading 26th October, · Treasury Savings 1967 Certificates and Savings 1 G Bonds [DR. REID] -�- even· ;though millions 0,iiled of dollars were 1RJ1t on it;·1Before long we will be able to ve, front ·Georgetown to I tuni.

One can \'e on th� toad to Rosignol being 1bled by, .J�t.

Soon people will be able irive tli'•Cl\atjty without "'lads.

Wof)t.is now being done on the �,-�� without experiencing stand part of the Bi//.

Schedule.
Schedule.

Mr. Correia Mr. Cheeks Dr. Reid-19 Bill read a Second time.

Assembly in Committee.

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to and ordered to Mr. Lucic Are you putting the whole Schedule, or sections of it?

;hese men are saying.

, JF and repeat that these .

re )>eidi made attracti ve to the m Guylllla so that even the poor The Chairman: If you want you can offer to the Schedule Amendments .

Mr. Luck: A point of information on Section 8 of the Schedule.
.. country can get an � �in ·-,,this rtunity to p a rticipate in the 1ment, n<>' only by work activity, but information.

The Chairman: Go ahead, ask for your ,,;;g th'.eir 'small savings • a \sense of belonging so that they will to.

"This is my · �'>.tive land".

ith� � ,ese few remarks, .,e reaS a Second time.

''Ues,,Onput, and agreed to.

i �ck: Division!

I ask that the \Ir.

Deputy Speaker: Let the Division :Iii {issembly divided: Ayes 19, Noes 11, as be Noes Dr. Ramjohn Mr. Linde Mr.
Ally Mr. Khan Mr. Lall Mr. Luck Mr. Hamid Mr. Wilson Mr. Nunes Mr. Chandisingh Mr. Ram Karran - 11 .ol,ws; · - Ayes Mr. Wharton Rev.

Trotman Mr. Sancho Miss Field-Ridley Mr. Budhoo Mr. Blair Mr. Too-Chung Mr. Joaquin Mr. Duncan Mr. Clarke Mr.

Bowman Mr. deGroot Mr. Merriman Mr. Kendall Mr. Jordan Mr. John Mr. Luck The proviso to Section 8 reads as follows: "Provided that no order under this shall apply to any amount in excess in respect section of ten thousand dollars certificates held by any person."
of want to ask the hon.

Minister of Finance has any reason whether limiting certificates to be the Government's the Government any one person's to $10,000.

for holding of these because this seems intention.

Dr. Reid: We consider that as many persons participate in the purchase and certificates.

that reasonable so as possible can of these bonds Mr. Luclt: I assume that the Minister has on this a reason now.

Can he dilate further reason?


The Minister attempting to limit the holding to $10,000 because he wants as many persons as po�ible to share in these certificates.

says that he is of a person I should like to ask the hon.

Minister in view of Section 9 of the Ordinance which makes these whether, Principal certificates thinks that he is obviating one person gathering into his hands more Do you than $10,000 worth of certificates.
by delivery, the possibility transferable he of Bills -Second Reading Treasury So11ings 26th October, 1967 Certificates and Sa� : ·1048 Bonds · ;,..· · '.

·"�;:�· .. .

�·,- ·:�.... l ''"'"' of $10,000 ·� "'pcct if!-<m,ifi,· .� "In other The Minister 5,40p.m.

under Section 8, may this.

(Mr. Clteeks: in view of Section a reply from the seat; I do any per�on, is .

Schedule, this Section it to $10,000?

Do 9 of the which says that n� � · Gndcj shall �pply to 'tr, .
amount)n h� a reason for limiting you believe, Ordinance, Principal in your intention?

seem to be getting not understand words, there is no reply."]

that you.are succeeding " thal : to the� ' held by (Dr. Reid: "Yes."]

I .. � .

person 1s debarred from hold:id,i·�rcr.

.

.. : .

$10,000 1worth of certific �·'bnc,·t* .· . '

... .ti!� � could have all these ce .

_ es., a,....,:.
_ es., a,....,:.

would have tax exempti()n, ·lf:J'd if IK;:b m o r e he has no � ' _exo/ {Interruption./ May I say this, that J � Surely this thing is very .. Sil!

Minister pilots am asking for a legiti�, have said_ his intention preclude a man from hQldi1'W" ino.

$10,000 worth of these; �i,.._te e njoying the tax exc�ti'on {Interruption./ The qu� <ijl� d�.

having regard to Section tJ, ,woul� Minister individual $10,000 worth of these certif!iaj flnte""1!{l..

enjoy tax exemption?

The Chairman: Hon.


Mem� declare that in respect of any particular of certificates, no income tax shall accrue.

it the position, I ask the hon.

Minister Finance (Dr. Reid), that the Minister declares shall be tax free as soon as tl'le certificates Does this declaration relate Reid: "The taxation applies to the person.]

f I n terrupti on by hon.

Members (Go11emment)J that this issue of certificates are issued?

to the person or the certificates[?

May I say this.
May I say this.

I do not intend to reduce issue Is of may gather up to hi"'' admit that it is pt,ssibie th of tax exemption '.. --��-- a Bill thr'¥ , �"'llella ., 1:ll (Dr. to a ·I!

:· ... (Yeu.

are answered.

to a farce but if hon.

these proceedings instead of replying Members opposite, are going to make fun of reasonable inquiry, my that tonight it then I am insisting I seek Mr. Chairman, inquiries your protection I want to in this matter.
know whether the Minister can enlighten this is a Bill where his this House, because c:kclaration that these things be tax by hon.

Members - {Interruption exempted (Go11emment).J I read again: "The Minister that in respect of any particular ... " certificates may, by order, 'delcare issue of that is the burden of'.y"'t1 .

agree·that in the House, and the hon.

Mitijst6.

i'f to it.

There is nothing to compel him to participace, discussion.

in the Stantling,0, J'.

.

ci .'


f _ .," · • � · · · .. and · · -� _., Mr. Lucic It is true that I made·::e had disagreed would like to know �n · but the Minister if he disagrees, I the disagreement ask bound to give that."]

I am entitled-� t he question if the Minister ia in t. Of course, if the Minister is disagreemen embarrassed ign orance, his own through is another matter.

that ··.

lies.
that ··.

lies.

(Dr. Reid: "I am not issue of certificates issue can he say if these things to somebody who already His order w9uld relate to the particular Now having made such an of certificates.

particular order that this is tax exempted, are transferred holds $10,000 that he can deny tax exemption?

{Interruption.}

answer in the traditions rephrase Bill I would like to know if the Minister Finance could enlighten whether this proviso I want an of this House.
I will Before I vote on this of this House as to to Section 8 of the my question.

This House is entitled M r .

Ram Kanan: Under what ces would an exemption be circumstan a l l o w e d ?

{Interruption./ cases.

The hon.

Minister indicate.

Deputy Prime Minister.

The hon.


Minister may wish to is the first There may be hypothetical Mr. Wilson: Mr. Chairman, I am sure you that when a question is asked have observed 1049 Bills -Second Reading Treasury Saving!> 26th October, 1 967 Certificates and Savings l "'-O Bonds [MR, WILSON I · !Hon.

Members (Government): hon.

Members opposite ''Question."]

·-"answer the question ·admission ' answer the question try to in their seats.

ls it an who has to is int·ompnent?

.that the Minister 5.51 p.m.


Schedule part of the Bill.

to f and agreed to and ordered Assembly resumed.

Mr. Ram Karran: May I movl' thl' ,� f Sec1ion 8 of thl' Schcduk?

1 �an: Where is the written Bill reported the Third time without and passed.

Amendment, read ADJOURNMENT I shall write it now.

'iarran: ' .

�: You are out of or<ll'r.

Resolved, "That this Assembly do n o w adjourn t o a date t o b e fixed."

/Mr.

John/ Adjourned accordi p.m. ngly at 5.52