Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698069230037.pdf (Guyana)
LEGISLA'IIIVE COUNCIL Pres1mt 278 L LEGISLATIVE · COUNCI Deputy Speaker;- Mr. W. J. Raatgever, C.B.E.

(Con;.stituted (Constitution) under the British (Temporary 1959) Order in Council, Guiana Provisions) Nominated Officials :- MONDAY, 22ND FEBRUARY, 1954 Mr. W. T. Lord, I.S.0.

Mr. J. I. Ramphal.

Nominated Mr. T. Lee, Uno/ ficials :­ The Council met at 2 p.m. His Sir Eustace Honour the Speaker, ford, 0.B.E.-, Q.C., in the Chair.- Wool­ Mr. W. A. Phang.

Mr. L. A. Luckhoo, PRESENT !\fr, C. A. Carter.


Mr. W. A. Macnie, C.M.G., 0.B.E.

His Honour Eusta·ce Gordon Woolford, the Speaker, Sir 0.B.E, Q.C.

Rev.

D. C. J. Bobb.

Mr. H. Rahaman.

Ex-Officio Members;- Miss Gertie H. Collins. '

The Hon.

the Chief Secretal'y, Mr. John Gutch, C.M.G., 0.B.E.

Mrs. Esther E. Dey.

-• The Hon.

the Attorney-General, Dr. H. A. :Fraser.

l\1r.

F. W. Holder, Q.C.

tt.

Col. E. J. Haywood, M.B.E., T,0: The Hon.

the Financial Secretary, Mr. W. 0.

Fraser, 0.B.E.


Mr. R. B. Jailal.

Noniinated Members of Executive Coun_cil :- The Hon.

�ir Frank McDavid, C.B.E.

(Member for Agricul­ C.M.G., ture, Forests, and Lands and Mines).

Mr. Sugrim Singh.

Clerk of the Legislature­ Mr.

I. Crum Ewing.

Assistant Clerk o"f the Legislature The Hon.

P. A. Cummings (Mem- -Mr.

I. R. J{ing.

ber for Labour, Health and Housing) The Hon.

W. 0.

R. Kendall.

Mr. E. F. Correia.

Absent:- The Hon.

G. A. C. Farnum, 0.B.E.


The Speaker read prayers.

The Hon.

G. H. Smellie.

The Hon.

R. B. Gajraj.

The Hon.

R. C. Tello.

The Minutes of the meeting of the held on Friday, the 19th of 1954, as printed Council F'ebruary, lated, were taken as i'ead and confi.rme� and circu­ .

_, -279 Govt.

Notices 22ND FEBRUARY, 1954.


Appropriation Bill 280 GOVERNMENT NOTICES DRAINAGE AND IRRIGATION (BOERASIRIE INTRODUCTION OF BILLS EXTENSION PROJECT) (SPECIAL PROVISIONS) BILL, 1954 The Chief Secretary gave notice u.i' the introduction and first reading of a Bill intituled: "An Ordinance to amend the Co-op·er ative Societies Ordinance, 1948 to provide for the minimum number of persons capable Olf registration and for the com pulsory sale of ;produce through a regi ~: tered society in certain cases."
The Chief Secretary: reading first the move inti tu led: I beg to of a Bill ''An Ordinanc~ to make special pro visions with respect to the declaration of certain areas as Drainage and 'Irrigation Areas.''
The Attorney-General seconded: Mr. Cumtnings ( Member Lclbour, Health and Housing) notice of the introduction and reading of the following Bills : for gave first "An Ordinance further to amend the Registration of Births and Di?aths Ordin ance•" "An Ordinance to enable 'Ph.rajjhatranjan Dasgupta to be registered in tlhe Colony as a Medical Practitioner under the pl'o visions of the Colonial Medical Service (Consolidation) Ordinance-" ''An Ordinance to .continue in force the Medical Practitioners (Tempo;~ry Regis tration) ,(Extension) Ordinance, 1947.''
Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a first time.

Mr. Speaker: It is rather an urgent- matter, is it not?

The Chief Secref-a ry : Yes, Sir; it is rather an urgent matter, and if h1e Council agrees I would like ·to take the Bill through _ its remaining stages to the morrow, provided the Governor's pennission I suspension of 'the Standing Orde.rs.

cannot proceed fu rther now.


I can obtain to move ORDER OF THE DAY APPROPRIATION BILL, 1954 AUDIT DEPARTMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL The Financial Secretary the first .

:move intituled :· reading of I beg to a Bill "An Ordinance further to amend the Audit Department Ordinance for the pur pose of increasing 1:he salaries_ of the Directors of Audit and tlhe Senior Auditor."

Sir Frank McDavid seconded.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read, .a first time.


The Financial Secretary: I beg to move that this Council r esolves itself into Committee to resume consideration of the Bill intituled: "An Ordinance to appropriate the sun plies granted in the current session of the Legislative Council-" Sir Frank McDavid seconded.

Question put, and agreed to.

Council in committee.


· , SOCIAL Asi'lISTANCE The Financial Secretary: I be.Ir to move that this ·bead be ~numbered XLIII 281 _ Appropria.tion Bill LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL -Committee... 282 , and passed _at $1,067,240, as recommen ded by Finance Committee.

Question put, and agreed to.

Head passed at- $1,067,240 recommended by F\inance Comrriittee.

as TRANSPORT AND HARBOURS 'fhe Financial Secretary: I beg to move that this head be numbered XLV and passed at $1,392,703.
Mr. Ramphal: I rise to move the reduction of this head by one dollar, to say- Sir Frank McDavid: If interrupt-one cannot move duction by a dollar.

I may re the M_r.

S1>eaker: Speak on it, or move its deletion.

Mr. Ramphal: Thank you very much, Sir.

I understand that the post of Marine Superintendent was understood.

more -Or less, to be one which Guianese with proper qualifdcations could have occupied.

There -is quite a great deal of dissatisfaction in the Harbour_ Master'fi Departmeht -.
because q11ali:fiications for th-at post ·;are now required which Gui apese could not fulfil.

For examp-le, one of the reqtfrrements is that the person must be qualified as l1aving- capta,ine(l an ocean-going F·or obvious reasons to which we need not refer here.

no G~ianese for a long- ti me will be able to obtain that qualification .
There is also a counter-qualification in respect of the post of Harbour Master in tha: he must have a Chief Pilot's Certific;ih~ of British Guh1,na, and it is pretty well expatriate known officers who come to us nor ou r officers can have_ all the qualifications -required for both p osts.

I wish to sa~, t h at there ii/~ gi'eat deal of dissatisfaction among that neither ship.

the qualified people-qualified from our own standards and poi·nt of view-and I wish that the proper authorities will take heed.
It is not that the Civil Service Association does not say there.

should be qualifications, but what it demands !

is qualifications, and we find i'n t his case t here are quali fications which exclude outside and inside a p.p1icants.

uniformity of T he Chief Secretar y: I am not quite sure what the hon.

Member it; raising - this fo1\ and I am not in a position to answer him.

i\llr.
i\llr.

Ramphal: It is found that one of us who has held the highest post has · laid down a heavy burden which no one else can bear.

Ml'".

Speaker: The matter ,v·m, no doubt.

be sent by the Chief Secretary to the Department concerned.

The Chief Secretary: Has the hon.

:!VI ember made representations?

:Mr. Ramphal: No, S ir.

I was only apprnac~ecl about it on Monday.

The Chief Secretary: It would bo a good thinir if he should do that.

Question put, and agreed to.

Head passed a't $1,392~703.


VOLUNTEER ·FORCE The Financial Secretary: I beg to · that move this ·head be numbered XLVI and passed at $180,1800 as recommended by Finance Committee.

Question put, and agree-cl to.

Head passed at $18"().800 as re commended by Finance Committee.

- 283 Appropriation Bill 22ND FEBRUARY, 1954.

Attdi t (Amdt.)

Bill 284 LoANS FROM PUBLIC FUND~ Amendment put, and agreed to.

The Financial Sec_retary : I beg to move that this- head be numbered!
XLVII and pa:ssed at $45,100 as re commended ·by Finance Committee.

Question put, and agreed to.

The Financial Secretary: I beg to move that the figm·es in the pre to amble-$33,823,000-be figures r ea d $33,815,687; read $30,926,095 $31,096,392.

and amended amendeC:1 the be to Head passed at $45,100 as recom Amendment put, and agreed to.

mended!

lby Fi-nance Committee.


COLONIAL EMERGENCY MEASURE~ The Financial Secretary : I beg to move that this head be numbered L and passed at $1,486,000 as recom mended by F.inance Committee.

Co.uncil resumed.

The Financial Secretary: I do not propose to move t he third- reading of 'the Bill now, I will take it tomorrow, .

Si~ Ques'tion put, and agreed to.

AUDIT DEPARTMENT ( AMENDMENT) BILL 1954 Head passed at $1,486,000 as re commended by Finance Committee.
DEVELOPMENT BUDGET I The Financial Secretary: am asking the Committee for permission to increase the contribution from re venue under this head!

from $1,000,000 to $1,180,000 and I therefore move that the head be passed at $3,223,383.

Question put and agre~d to.

Head passed at $3,223,383.

Total Schedule passed at $31,096,39-2.

that rthe The Financial Secretary: I beg figure in clause to move 2, that is $30,-926,095; be amended to read $31,0916,392 which agrees with the total in the Schedule.
Sir Frank McDavid: When we were fo · Committee the Financial Se cretary was moving in various amounts, there.fore the Schedule is now filled up.

The Financial Secretary: I now beg t o move the s uspension of the Standing Orders so as to enable me to take the Audit Departme-nt (Amend ment) Bill, 1954, t hrough all its stages t oda;v. Sir Frank McDavid seconded.
Mr. Lee : · I am obje.cting to the the Standfng Orders suspension qf fo r the purpose mentioned by the Fin ancial Secretary, for the simple reason thait I think this Bill requires a little more careful consideration.

Mr. Speaker: What about the othei' Bill on the Order P.a.pe•r-the Bill seek ing to make special provisions with respect to the declaration of certain areas as drainage and irrigation a·reas?

Does the hon.

Member pro,pose to ob ject to that ~lso?

Mr. Lee: No, Sjr.
Mr. Lee: No, Sjr.

Mr. Speaker : The hon.· Member must allow me to say whai;, I would 286 Audit Depar tment LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL .

(Amdt.)

Bill 286 reason the suspension of is moved have said to the Mover in d;ifferent circumstances and that is, before, the the motion for the Standing Orders mover usually gives a for asking to be allo.wed to do so.

I think the hon.

the Fimmcial Secretary should give some reason by explaining that the Bill is connected with the Buc.iget dis cussion.
I do not know if the hon.

Member, Mr. Lee, was present, but the r eason given was that there was a general discussion on this matter in Finance Committee.

Although the ex pression, "agreement" or "disagreement".

has not been used, I do not think I can .

accept the hon.

Member's objec tion.

I The Attorney General: thir:k the whole :poi·nt 1is that this Bill is tied up with the Estimates and with one of the heads in the Estimates.

The hon.
The hon.

the Finandal Secretary has deferredl the third reading of the Ap pro,priation Bill and, I daresay, it is for the purpose of· dealing with this particular item contained in the Bill.

its This Council opinion on the Bill.

itself can express Mr. Speaker: The hon.

MembH, Mr. Lee, has not furnished any parti cular reasons for taking his objection.

.Mr.
.Mr.

Lee: 'l'he reason is that after 'the Finance Committee had .passed the Estimates_, it was brought to my know iedge that certain things recommended and passed 1by the Committee have not been accepted and, therefore, I do not think this Council should pass the items referred to in this Bill.

I do not want to s-ay publicly what I have heard and whether it has any foundation, but I know things recommended in Finance Com mittee with respect to certain Officers have not been accepted by Go.vern ment.
My point is that Government that certain · should not accept some of the recom mendations of the Finance Committee an cit reject o.thers, and that the reason why I am suggesting that this Bill be deferred.

I shall certainly speak the Financial Secretary to the hon.

and expl>tin what has occurred.

is Mr. Smellie: May I, with great the Attorney.

deference to the hon.

certain General, Sir, and with a amount of deference the hon.
Member ( Mr. Lee) , say that the motion before the Council the Standing Orders should be suspended.

I do submit that it is for the Council to .

decide whe'the·r we should suspend the Standing Orders.

is whether to l\h.

Speaker: That is what I am trying to point out.

The reason given by the hon.

MeII1Jber, Mr. Lee, is on·e to oppose the Bill and not one for op posing the suspension of the Standing Orders.
· Mr. Lee: If I remember rightly, in Sir Gorden Lethem's time if anyone objected to the suspension of the Stand ing Rules and Orders, the item intended to be discussed was never taken.· I have g.iven my reason for opposing the motion and I think it should be accepted.

1.\fr.

Speaker: Again 1 say, the hon.

Member's reason is not one for op posing the suspension of the Standing Orders, but one fo r opposing the .

Bill itself.
Bill itself.

There is no Order for the sus pension of the Standring Orders, and a suspension may be requi.red for various reasons.

I shall therefore put the motion for the suspension of the Standing Or ders, as moved.

Mr. Lee: Let us have a division, please.

287 Auili:t Vepa1-tment 22ND Ff;:BRUAR:Y; 1954.

(Amdt.)

Bill 288 [Mr. Lee] Question ptit, the Council divid ing and voting as follows:- Did Not Vote M1·.

Singh lVIr.
Singh lVIr.

Tello Against Mr. Lee For Mr. Jailal Lt.-Col. Haywood Dr. Fraser Mrs. Dey Miss Collins 1\11-r. Rahaman Rev.

Bobb Mr. Carter Mr. Macnie l'vlr.

Luckhoo Mr. Phang Mr. Ramphal lVIr.

Smellie Mr.· Farnum Mr. Kendall Mr. Cummings The Financial Secretary The Attorney General The Chief Secretary 19 Tl 2 Motion carried.

Standing Orders suspended.

The Financial Secretary: I no ·.v beg to move the second reading of the Rill intituled- "An Ordinance ftwtlher to amend the .
Audit Department Ordinance the for pu11pose oi increasing the salaries of the Director of Audit and the Senior Auditor."

In doing so, I should like to ex plain that the salaries of the Director of Audit and the Senior AL1ditor, as the latter • is now designate.d, is pro vided!
for by law- Chapter 200 of the Laws or British Guiana - and it is now proposed in the 1954 Estimates the salary of the Director of that Audit which is £1,300 per annum should .be carried out at £1,400; and the salary of the Senior Auditor which is £1,000 be carried out at £1,100 per annum.

Provision for the new salaries has been made in the Draft Estimates for 1954.
The reason for increasing the salary of the Director of Aud1it is the fact 'that a po~t ha~ been created in the the that time 'the 1953 Estimates, styled 'I'reasurer.

This was <lone as a result of the separation of the duties of the Finan cial Secretal'y and Treasurer.

The two posts were separated and the Finan cial Secretary and Treasurer became the Financial Secretary and the new post of Tl'easurer was created.
The salary prov.ided for the latter Officer· it was overlooked was £1,400 but salar y of at or the Accountant the Trea-surer - General as the Officer is called in other Colonies - is on parity with that of the Director of Audit, and no steps were taken to.

have the salary of thf: Director of Audit changed!

at the time.

Steps are now being taken to remove what is an anomalous position.
· At the same time, opportunity is also be ing taken to revise upward the salary of the Auditor, now called Senior Auditor, to the same salary as that of the Deputy Tteasuret which is also a new post.

That is the reason for the revision of the salaries of these two posts.

In Finance Committee where · the matte1· was considered at .. some length.

cer tain Members took exce]!)

tion 011 the ground that it was a .piece I do not regard it as; meal revision.

It was really a regrading of such.


salary to remove an anomaly.

This is something we have been doing ever since salaries were revised in 1949.

There is· another such case which came before the Finance Committee some little ti.rue ago.

The salaries of certain unclassified officers were revis ed and.

as a result of that revision which went back to 1949, anomalies were created with respect to Stewards at the hospitals.
We are now going back to the Finance Committee and asking that, in the circumstances the It anomalies be removed as ·it ·· were'.

is felt that the salary of 'the Steward at a hospital should be higher than that of a clerk and it seems to me that, as in the question of the ,Stewards; this is a case where we should try to put our- ~89 }i.udit Depa~·tment LEGISLATIVE COUNCU ( Amdt.)

Biit- 296- selves in order.

I am su rprised, there fore, to see that ce-rtain hon.
Members are endeavouring t o. make an issue of this matter.

We have, in the past, refused to undertake certain revisions because· they meant piecemeal revision, but I cannot truthfully say that I re ga.rd_ this case as one of p·iecemeal re: vision.

There is ·only one Officer con cerned., and it seems 'to be only fair that we should place his salary on the same level as it wo.uld have been if he was serving in another Colony.

I- hope that :non.

Members will see the justice in what we have done.


Sir Frank McDavid seconded.

I be1g l\'lr.

Lee: to move an am~ndment to the effect that this Bill be moved six months ·from date.
My rea!3on for doing so is that if Gov ernment in their wisdom · think that they should increase the salary of 0110 officer-and I · have nothing agains1 this officer but i·ather thinks he is deserving of an increase-I think Gov ernment should also accept similar recom mendations by _ the Finance Commit tee with respect to other officers and amend the Estimates accordingly.
I understand that the Finance Commit tee recommended that Magistrates sho.uld be given two increments, and if this has been ae,cepted by Govern ment why has the necessary provision If not been made .in the Estimates.

it was rie.cessary to have the Civil List amended that should have been done, in · a similar manner to how this Audit Department Ordinance is being· I do not agree with the amended.
-principle under which the Ord1inance is are being amended, since there other--officers who deserve and need It is not the question an increase.

of salary, but the ques'tion of prin ciple that I am concerned with.

If Government give an undertaking that when the Civil List is amended the the Fin increases recommend,ed by ance Committte will be niade r etro spective as from January I i 1954, I will withdraw my amendment.
Other- - wise, I shall vote against the motion, since other recommend•ations made -b-y .

the Finance Committee have _ be_E\11 ignored.

i.\Ir.

Speaker: Has anyone se1· onded the motion?

Mr. Lee: I do not know if ans Member will second it, otherwise it woulti1 -fall t h rough.

The Financial Secretary: · The motion has been seconded, Sir.

lVIr.

S11eaker: Does any other Member wish to speak on the motion or on 'the· amendment ?
Mr. Ramphal: I rise to oppose 'the motion, and to say that it is a, matter of some deep regret to me t hat I should rise to oppose an in crease in salary to a 00-lleague in the Civil Service.

I am under -a duty, however, which I cannot -but appre ciate, to oppose the motion because the Civil Ser vice As'Sociation of which its I am President has asked me in name to express as strongly a~ I can, regret that Government shquldi to intro have chosen duce this Bill.
What I shall say, Sir, in the course of my remarks this afternoon, I have already said to the Auditor; and I have also made my poi;;ition quit& clear to.

the hon.

the Ch ief Secretary.

this moment _ their · hands.


I wish that I have pleaded with both of them not to press this Bill at this particu lar time, but when I did make pro test the matter had: already reached too far and it was completely out of I could have said what the Auditor thinks on this particular matter, but I shall the not allow my feelings this occasion.

The better of me 011 hon.

the Financial Sec'retary has said that t he reason for the Bill is to regu.

)arise the salaries of the Treasurer and the A ml'itor.
If I were the Audi tor, I would certainly have been dissat isfied with the Bill as it is.

to_ get l:.tl--!- .ti 'UU,'t~ U tjjJU,I ~'IIH'./ft~ .

:..

:.NU L' Cltlt,U/\11.l, .ltlD4.

( .fi'fnUi./ .D'l,~t .

:;~4 [Mr. Ra]1'lphal] On If we accept the 1st January, 1953, the new salary for the Treasurer was put into operatio.n.

the statement of the Financial Secretary that this Bill is to put the two posts on par, then I would say an injus tice was done to the Auditor in that his salary .
was not put back from the 1st January, 1953.

I have said that to the Auditor and to other I wish to give to this Coun people.

cil very die-finitely the basis for my oppo.sition to this Bill.

As it is con stituted it disputes what the hon.

the Financial Secretary said _, and he could not truthfully say otherwise I am sure that it is for revision.

the Financial · Secretary will agre~ with me that there are o'ther officers In 1949 the Pub on the same s-cale.

lic .

Service Salaries and Wages Com mission.


made recommendations which the Government had put into ope<J.·a.

tion.

Some _ officers were put · on a flat basis and there was a certain group called!

A8-for officers earn ing $6.,240 per annum in other words $520 per month-=including the Direc tor .

of Education, the Commissioner of 'Income Tax, the Commissioner of the Commissioner of the' Interior, Police, the Controller of Customs, the Director of · Audit and the Dii-ector of Geo logical Surveys.
Those officers are all, put in t he .

same line.

There was The Treasurer no Tre•asurer then.

was brought in and he was put on a higher scale.

the Postmaster General, : It appears very simple indeed tha't .

if you are going to r emove the Auditor from his present s-cale and place him on is nothing short of a piecemeal revision.

Andi .

.

now that revision been agreed upon and the Auditor's salary a higher one, it has is not taken back .
to 1958; I cannot see what reason there can be to force this Bili through at this particular time.

It appears to me from what I have said t hat we can come to no other that Govern ment is discriminatin,g between offi.

cer and officer.• It is only the posts the Auditor of the Treasurer and that are related.

.conclusion than the in respect of But there are other financial offi cers, for example the Commissioner of focome Tax and the Controller of I have before me the com Customs.
the parative sa:laries West Incl:ies and perhaps all over the British Empire of officers, and there it is found that the Treasurer, the Auditor, I:q.come· T'ax Commis sioner and the Controller of Customs If you are are all closely related.

going to take one out its proper place, then you are creating discrim ination.

On top of that, there are the 'other officers Directo.r of E·ducation, the Commis sioner of Police., the Postmaster Gen eral and the Director of Geological Surveys·.
Can we say that any one is no.t equally deserving of of them being kept in line with the Auditor or t he· Treasurer ?

Take the case of the Director of Geological Surveys.

He is the man who is doing every thing to.

bring more mining concems ii1to this country at a time when we cannot get Geological officers to eomP · out.

in the Service; There is one bas-is on which I be the relationship between lieve the Administration and Its Officers must is consistency.
exist, and that basis I am sure the Chief Secretary will tell this Council if I am wrong in saying- if senior officers of Government must await · a general revision of salaries, there is no case for the Auditor's ,post to be regrad ed.

The Financial Secretary has said t hat 293 1t.1"/JJJit bepartm.ent iforsLATIVE CouNcit ( Amdt.)

Bill 294 it is , t o remove an anomaly.

_ In so doiJ, ,g we will be creating several ot t.1er a nomalies.
I r egret to say t hat Government is treating some of its officers as fish and others as fowl, to use a common expression.

in time is being broken drown.

I hope Government will see the wisdom of withdrawing this -:Bill because it is creating a great deal of the dissatisfaction, particularly minds of s·enior Civil Servants.

We do not want ·any confidence wh;ch the Service has in the Administration at any reduced.
This to be is one of the ways in which that confidence I feel we should try to maintain that confidence, and it can only be main tained by strict impartiality on the part of the Admirristration in deal ing with its servants.

I feel that Jf the Auditor's post were to be regraded he would be better treated than he would I ask ·Govern be in some Colonies.

ment to let this matter wa it.


By with drawing this Bill Gove,rnment would be prevented from taking a decision which would be very unsavoury in the mouths of Members later.

Mr. Speaker: Does any other Member wish to speak on this mo tion?

I feel The Chief Secretary: I to should reply as Chief Secretary some of the points raised by the hon.

Member who has just spoken.

He mad'e ,an -el10quent attack on this measure designed to increase the salaries of the Director of Audit and his "Num ber Two".
But I did not myself find his arguments very convincing.

He himself said!
He himself said!

if he were in the position of the Director of Audit he would be dissatisfied with these proposals be of the cause, from the arguments from t he in crease Financial Secretary, i-n sala1·y should really have been made retroactive t he 1st January, 1953, but I can a~sm-e him that the Director of Audit is dissatisfied ; and I must personally, on the ground of logic, say that I would like to see thi~ increase in salary antedated to 1st J amuary, 1953.

However, I do.
However, I do.

not think that fact shoultt1 be against increasing his -salary as from 1st J anuary, 1954. used as argument · this The Financial Secretary explained increase.

I t he r easons· behind can assure· hon.

Members that the sole purpose behind this increase is t<:> re- · move an existing anomaly.

As he said, the salar y of the Director of Audit must bear relation to that of the Ac countant General whose accounts are subject 'to his inspection and supervi sion.
Hence it would be qu ite anoma lo.us· that t he salary of the Director of Audit should be_ below t hat of the Accountant General, as he is · some- · times called.

two.

salary or a piecemeal J o is as the purpose The hon.

Member who spoke last in sisted tbat this was a piecemeal salary r evision.

Of course it is revision of salary, and it is a revision of an in- • individual dividual salaries.
To that extent it should be· revision, regarded but remove an anomaly, and this has been done on several occasions since the last revi I did no't want to embarrass the sion.

hon.

Member when he stood on his feet and argued - that no post should be revised wit hout a general revision.

Other anomalies in this country which have come to notice have been re mo.ved previously and!

I can see no treat r eason why similar equitable ment shoula- not be applied the Director of Au·dit.

to 2~5 A1tdit Depd1rtrnent.


22ND F'EgRUARY, 1954.

( Arndt.)

liiii 2~6 i:The Chi~f Secretary] The hon.

Member mentioned salaries attached to other posts which come within the same bracket as the Director of Audit.

He mentioned offi cers including the Director of Geo logical Surveys.

If you look at your Estimate.s you will find is already receiving a: personal allowance of $960 as well as basic salary.

He is also receiving a pension in respect of his past Colonial Service.

So, I am af1-;-aid the hon.


Member picked a r ather bad example for comparison.

that he I think he said the revision of the salai·y of 'the Director of Audit might well have been postponed until the revision of salaries.

I think he is per haps assuming that the salary revision when it has taken place will be given effect from 1st January, 1954.

I do.

not say myself that that will not be the case, but I think the hon.

Member is making an assumption.


Not having rectified it from 1st J anuary, 1954 it might take effect from some date in the middle of the year, whereas as I have a lready said, in my opinion it s•hould have been rectified from 1st January, 1953.

The hon.

Member ac cused the Government of discrimin ating between officer and officer.

I trust in making that statement he was not implying that we were dis criminating between the Direc'tor and Audit and others who may have held the post he holds.

.
.

Council divided and voted as ifol- lows: For: Aga·inst: , ... Lt. Col. H aywood Mr. Singh .

Dr. Fraser Mrs. Dey Mr. Rahaman Mr. Macnie Mr. Lord M1·.

Gajraj Mr. Smellie Mr. Cummings Sir Frank McDavid The Financial Sec- :Mr. Jaila] Miss Collins Rev.

Mr. Bobb Mr. Carter Mr. Luckhoo Mr. Phang Mr. Lee Mr. Ramphal- 9 retary The Attorney Gen eral The Chief Secre tary-13 Did not vote: Mr. Tello Mr. Farnum Mr. Kendall-3 Motion carried.

Bill read a second time.


COUNCIL IN COMMIT'l'EE Council 1·esolved itself into Com mittee to consid•er t he Bill ciause by claus e. ,T·itle- Mr. Ramphal: That was far from bny mind.

The Chief Secretary: I am glad of the assurance, but he did say be tween ''officer and officer", and not between "office and office".

The Attorney-General: I move that the word "s-enior" in the last line be deleted because a change is to be made in Executive Council in the Offi cial Design,ations Ordinance, 1938.
For the purposes of this Bill the word can , be deleted.

Question put, t hat the Bill be read Question that the word "senior,.

a second time.

be deleted put, and agreed to.

297 F'riendly Societies LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ( A rn:dt.)

Bill 298 Council resumed.

The Financial Secretar y: With t)1e Council's permission, I beg to move that this Bill be now r ead a third time and passed.

Sir Frank McDavid seconded.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a t hird time and passed as amended in Committee.
FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ( AMENDMENT ) BILL, 1954 The Chief Secretary: I beg to move the second reading of the Bill intituled : to amend the "An Ordinance further Friendly Societies OrdinanC'e."
The amendments for which pro vision is made in this Bill before the Council are designed to give effect to some of the recommendations by Mr. and Mrs. Wells as a r esult of the survey which they carri1ed out in the West Jindies in 1948 and 1949 under a research scheme from Colonial Development and Welfare fund s. The Report has been laid fn Com:1cil and I hope hon.

Members have had an opportunity of studying it.

Also bound up with the Report, as hon.


Members will find, is a despatch from the Secretary of State for the Colonies the in which he gives his views on Report.

The shortcoming of the Friendly Societies which Mr. and Mrs Wells diagnosed are summarised in paragraph 2 of the despatch, and recommendations for 1·emedying them are also summar ised in paragraph 4.

Hon.
Hon.

Members will find an ex tremely in'teresting historical account Societies which in the West Indies and British Guiana dating right back to the early 19th century.

Nowadays when we think and tells of F.riendly to try that that is no to us, it will be possible speak of social security, we think of rather elabcr · the something on ate and a lso, I am afraid, the vr.ry expensive side of ;;ocial security a1al so.cial ins urance in the United King dom.
But reason why the means we shou ld not, within available step for ward on the road towards a compl'e hensive scheme of social ins urance here.

I hope to announce, fairly shortly, th at an expert in these matters of social insurance will he visiting the Colony to guide us with advice as to the lines along which we.

should advance.

•In the meantime, h6w ever, I t hink hon.


Members will agree with me that we should do everything we can to assist the friendly societies and to see that they are placed on a prope1· and fi rm foundation, so that they may be able to provide social security in some directions fo.r their members.

It may even be possible the friendly socie'ties to be merged into one body and play their part in whatever comprehensive scheme eventually evolved.
for is As will be seen from t his report, Mr. and Mrs. Wells found that all was not well ·with the friendly societies in the West •Indies and British Guiana'.

I have already said t hat a convenie11t their shortcomings, as summary of found by Mr. and Mrs Wells, is to be found in paragrnph 2 of the SPcretary of State's despatch in t his volume.
As regards the recommendations of Mr. and Mrs. Wells for overco~ing these short comings, one of t heir main recommend ations was that there sh ould be a Registrar of Friendly Societies, with s'taff at his disposal sufficient for a proper over sight of the affair~ of friend ly societies.

In the particular case of Br itish Guiana, hon.

Members will recall that at the time when this repo1t was written, · it was t h e Registral' .
oi the Supreme Court who, in addition to his other m ultifarious duties, was also Registr ar of Friendly Societies; I am 299 Fr-ienclly Societies 22ND FEBRUARY., 1954.

( Amdt.)

-Biil 300 [The Chief Secretary] afraid t hat under that arrangement he was not able to give the societies ade quate care and attention.

He could hardly have been expected to do so.

Further, the powers of inspection pro vided by the law were extremely limited.

lVI~·.
lVI~·.

and Mrs Wells have suggested that wherever possiple the duties of the Registrar of Friendly Societies should be combined with those of the Registrar of Co-operative Societies, and in 1952 that r ecommendation was implemented here, · the Registrar of Co-operative Societies taking over responsibility fol' the other side-the friendly societies.
In 1953 he was provided with additional staff by two Inspectors of Friendly Societies, so as to enable him to carry out these dutiei:t, and I have no doubt that as a result of these administrative arrangements there has been a considerable amount of im provem~nt in the care and attention given by the Registrar to the friendly societies.

the appointment of I would Hke 'to draw the atten tion of hon.

Members to the report of the Reg istrar for 1953, which was also laid in Council last week.
Now we are proposing to take the next step forward and to amend our Ordinance so as to remove some of the shortcomings in the ex.fating law which were referred to by M·r .

.and Mrs. Wells iin their report.


It may be that we have been rather lag gard in bri111ging this legislation for ward, but I should like to explain that the Registrar of Co-operative Societiei, submitted a draft Bill to the Attorney General early in March, 1953, ood the Bill was f,inalized by the Attorney-Gen eral at the end of that month.
It was then, of course, t oo late to bring the amending Ord'iinance before the then Legislative Council, and it was necess ary to postpone administrative action until after the new Govemment had I see in the file now taken office.

to before me here, that the papers were £ubmitted the Minister of Local Government and Social Welfare within whose portfolio the matter falls, on Jun .. 10, 1953, and that the Bill was recom mended for early introduction.
Owing, I presume, to his many other pre-oc cupations, he was unable to take any ac tion on it before he was removed from Office in October.

The Bill has now been brought forward and, as hon.

Mem bers will see, ,it covers a number of use ful purposes.
First of all, it providei:t for the compulsory registration of friend ly societies with a membership of not less than seven persons, · whereas at present there is only voluntary regis tration for which provision is made in sections 3 and 12 of the existing Ordin ance.

It also provides for the due audi ting of accounts u111der arrangements to be made by the Registrar or by some person authorized by him.
I am afraid that in their report Mr. and Mrs. Wells were finally impelled to gjngle out British Guiana for some re marks on the question of audit.

They referred to some errors which they found -rather grave errors- in the annual returns submitted by a certain friendly society with respect to 1948.

Then they go on to say (in par.


311) : "The auditor, who stated that he !himself had drawn up the Annual return, was invited to explain these discrepancies, b\1t ~er working on t!hem for some time during) the period of a fortnight, professed himself quite unable to do so.

He excus-ed himself on the grounds that there had been a lot of noise from the street during the time that he was compiling the Return.
This auditor seiems to be popular amonP, the societies; he was responsible for audit il}g the 1947 accounts of 22 societies and up to about the end of April o/f 1949 had audit<ed the 1948 accounts of 11.

We und·er stand that dissatisfaction has been officially expressed with /his work on previous occasions."
Further, for the amending Bill pro the establishment of a vides 3011 Friendly Societies LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ( Amdt;) Bill 302 Reserve Fund by societies which have any surplus funds available to them as a result of their operations.

It also prov,ides for limitation of the practice than one office, of holding more which Mr. and Mrs. Wells found to be a frequent cause of financial malpractice.
For ,instance, a person who held the office of Secretary of one society often held the office of Treasurer in another society, and he held in addition a number of other offices which gave hiim opportunities for these financial malpractices.

This The amendin,g Bill also provides for the reference of disputes to the Regis -frar in cases where one part:v only applies for such reference.

Under the existing law such reference was only possible with the consent of both parties.
It also provides the Registrar ,yith powers of entry and inspecbion of the premises and the affairs of a society, and for holding an inquiry into thr· affairs of a society when he considers it to be necessary.

:a.dion can be taken by tl1e Regi-strar on Iiis own initiative, instead of having to wait for an apnlication by a nnmber of the members of the society itself.
It also provides the Registrai· with powers of inquiry into cases of negligence or snch othe1· acts on the part of officials of a society, and appropriate means of appeal for the officials concerned to a Magis trate are also nrovided in the ordinary way.

The Bill provides also for the establishment of an Audit and Super vision Fund to which Government may contribute if it thinks fit.

There are reli-eve also provlS'Wns whjch will friendly societies from income tax and certain other dues.
Those are the main provisions of 'the Bill.

and there are certain small items which I have not mentioned.

As hon.

Members will realize, all these provisfons --are .

designed tq imple- ment the recommendations of Mr. and Mrs. Wells for improving the running of the societies.

It may be thought by some that we have prov>ided the Registrar with rather drastic powers of inter ference with the affairs of the societies, but I think hon.
Me.mbers will agree with me that it is the duty of the Gov ernment to see that thes·e s,ocieties ar e run properly-in the interest of mem bers-and to see that the present opportunities for immoral practices are reduced to the absolute.

minimum.

In short, it must see to it that the hard-earned savings ,of the people who contr ibute to these.

societies are nsed for the benefit of the members them selves and do not go in'to the pockets of officials, and are not misused by i others who would squander them.
now beg to move the second reading of the Bill.

Mr. Speaker : I have been wonder ing what would be the position of cer tain societies-those known as burial societies - this Bill.

Ordinary people subscribe to them every month, so far as I know.

· unde'l· The Chief Secretary : This Bill applies to all societies with a mem:ber shi-p of not less than seven, and it pro vides that all societies be registered, including burial societies.

Mr. Speaker: Does any other Mli!m ber wish to speak on the Bill?
Miss Collins~ On Saturday last I -was invited to a meeting of executives of various friendly societies, and I want to say that they appreciate some of the clauses of this Bill.

There are three clauses, however, about which they are concerned, and one · of them relates to the question of a Reserve Fund.

The Bill provide,s for the estab lishment by all societies of a Reserve Fund to which not less than five per 303_ F rienclly So cieties 22ND FEBRUARY, 1 954 ( Arndt.)

Bill 304 [Miss Collins] cent.


of their net profits must be set aside each year, but the societies con cerned would like to have this figure red uced to thl'ee OJ.'

four ,per cent.

at the rriost, because they" feel that five per i-;ent.

is too high.
is too high.

Some members complained that t hey were contribut ing to these societies for years and that they were now looking forward to better t reatment for the suppor t they had given, while some executives felt that the societies had n ot been prop erly treated by Government.

- Some of the societies are ver y smalJ, but there a re large ones in which the type.

of dis honesty referred the the.

measuret executives appreciate which Government have adopted in order to put an en<l to it .
Further, to kn0w the executives would like whether they would_ be· ab le to 11se· money from the Reserve Fund at an:v particular time, and whether it wouli!

interfe r e with the payment of bonuse;; by.

the societies.

to exists, and gards tl1e Super vision Fund.

They hope that they would not be burdlened and caused to spend more money than they· should.

Mr. Speaker : What particular clause is the hon.

Member referring to?

Miss Collins: I am r eferring to clause 15 and also to clause 7.
Mr. Speaker :· I am looking at· clause 15.

Miss Collins Claus~ 15 seeks to prnvide for the esta'blishment of _an · Audit and Supervision Fund to which to con soC'iet ies will be called upon tribute.

It also seeks to make provi sion for gran'ts to b e made by t he Gov ernment to augment the contributions made by societ-ie_s.

The main purpose of the fund will be to provide revenue from which 'the expenses · of audit and inspection under the O rdinan ce may be met.
· if Some Members have said that to contribute 'to they would cease the Reserve Fund the societies is .

used for the -payment of super.

vision or for au ditors.

Some of the societies complain that they are using 7 per cent.

of t heir funds for the pay ment of a uditors, and they feel that they should get s"Ome assistance from Government if they are to pay more t han they are paying at t he presr~nt t ime.

Some of t hem have also.


pointed out tha.t they have auditors who have been working for them for years for small fees and they feel they should be given a:n opportunity to se~ lect or recomm end their own auditors.

That is the feeling of some executives.


Other executives · feel that the societies ai·e do ing social work and that the members are not being paid, therefore Government should assist them -as -re- that The societies are hoping t hat they would no_t have to pay more for attditing their books in future _ than · what _ they paid in the past.

They feel t hat if t hem auditors they Government send would have to_ pay much more.

ihan ~hey_ paid before,.

because they know_ what Government people are paid.
There is no f ixed amount in this clause and the _ payment will have to be made out of the Fund.

The Attorney-General: The hon.

Member is saying that the societies are of the o.pinion t lm,t the cost of a udit ing thei r books might be increa.seci' · through having to get outside auditors under these provisions.

Mi-.

Speaker: H as the hon.

·Mem ber finished bet remarks?

305 Friendly .

Societies LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ( A mdt.)


Bill 306 to however, objection Miss Collins: No, Sir, I would like t o r ef er also to clause 4 and clause 8.

· Clause 8 seeks to provide that no per son shall hold the of.fices of President and .

Treasurer or Secretary and Treas urer in the same society, or sha 1!

hold the office ,of Treasurer in more The, societies are than one society.

they that s a y i n g, have no person a being President of one society and Secretary of another.
Some of them have also pointed out tlrat they have auditors who have given them honest service for years, · and!

these are we!I esta;blished societies-not small ones.

They feel that they should also have the democratic right of selecting their own Secretary, because they feel that a Secretary cannot steal unless he and the President agree to do so.

They also say that a Treasurer cannot be dishon est at all without the aid of the Sc c1·et-ary and the President.
Mr. Speaker: Clause 8 (1) sass that no person shall hold· two offices combined.

Miss CoJlins: The societies do not agree with that.

Mr. Speaker: hold the office of than one society.

that?

A person cannot Treasurer in more Do they object to ·:Miss Collins: Yes; they object to '!,at.

They s·ay that there are persons who have done so quite satisfactorily in the past.

The Attorney-General : With r e gard to detailed comments on any par.

ticular- clause, I think the hon.


Mem ber would be advised t o reserve them the Committee until the' Bill reaches is only stag-e. the Council think I concerned: with the principle of the Bill in the course of t he second read ing.

Mr. Speaker: The hon.

Member (Miss Collins) is objecting in princi ple to this clause, 8, which forbids any person holding two offices at the same time in one sodety.

The AttoTney-General: I cannot see it that way.

Mr. Speaker: I advise the hon.


Member th~.t when the Bill reaches the Committee Stage she should be prepared to move a specific amendment making clear what chrange or changes she has in mind.

Opportunity will be given her to do so.


Mr. Lee: I think there is only one clause that need's cla.rifioa.tion, and that is 45C dealing with the removal of an officer, at ( 1 ) (a) where it says "If at any time it appears to the satis faction of the · registrar after due inquiry into the facts (the officer or other person being afforded a full opportunity of being heard) .

... '' In every legal documel}t there should be stated the procedure to.

be gone about.

Supposing that the regis.


trar did it in the manner which · he himself liked- The Chief Secretary: Is the hon.

Member ma.king a speech ?

Mr. Lee: I am commenting on the Bill, which is not properly drawn up so as· to be ex'Plicit to friendlly s_ocie ties people, and I am asking Govern ment to lay down the procedure to be followed when any person is charged.

!

'\fr.

Macnie: I feel from the hgn.

Member, ·.


Miss Co1Iins's remarks that possibly a good many of the friendly 301 Friendly Societies 22ND FEBRUARY, 1954.

( Amdt.)

Bill 308 into effect and an opportunity was LMr.

Macnie] societies will be affected by this Bill when it comes that they may not have h1ad a full oppor tunity of studying it.

I therefore ask the hon.

the Chief Secretary whether afforded such the societies before or after publi cation of the draft ~ill on the 30th of Jianuary last.
I think we all know that there are many societies which come under the term friendly societies and which are doing useful work in there are others possibly in operation-but let us not fail to recognize that there are long a good many friendly societies I do established and doing good work.

feel it is desirable that all those who go in fo1 this form of social work shn" 1 be given full opportunity of studying the Bill and making ,any representa t ions 'they may care to.
this community-and i·ecog111zrng that this, in I have read the report of Mr. and Mrs. Wells with a good deal · of interest, because I happened to m-,et 'them when they came out to the West Ind'ies and I was in another Colony.

One of their recommendations relate to thP, .'

drafting of Model Rules appro priate to each Colony, and the Secre tary of State for the Colonies in his despatch-paragraph 4 (f) _:_refers · to it.
The recommendations include " that Model Rules appropriate to each Col ony should be drafted1 by Registrars for the observance of Soeieties (para graph 444a) ".

We can also refer to paragr,aph 105 of the Report in this I know, Model res.pect.

As far as Rules have not been drafted.

There is provision for what these Rules must contain.
Copies of the old volumes of the laws have been removed from t':ie this Council, but I have table looked up the Schedule to the old On'li nance, and there what the rules usually .

sti).te.

It, does · seem to it says in me that it is a pity that a draft of the I think Model Ruies is not available.

it should be availa:ble when we are discussing a piece of legislation like this, which I am not opposed, to at all.

Also, it .should be made available to the bodies· concerned.
I know that some of the societies in the vicinity of Georgetown had a meeting with the hon.

Member, Miss Collins, but I do not know , if they had an opportunity of studying the matter.

Mr. Speaker: Section 4 of Chap ter II of the Report deals with Rules.

There are certain societies which may adopt modiel rules, but is· there such a thing as compulsory rules?

Mr. Ramphal: I wish to congra tulate Government on the introduction of this Bill.
The friendly society is the small man's society, and I wish to congratulate Govern particul1arly ment on .bringing forward compulsory registration.

Clause 7 provides for the appointment of persons to audit the accounts of societies.

I think it that society members is necessary impartial should be protected, and from auditors appointed.

experience field that since compulsory auditing bas been introduced and the Director of Audit has taken over, there has been quite th~ keeping of accounts of trade unions.
I do not live very far away from where some societies· keep their meet ings, and I aim VJ:)l'~' painfully aware nf the quarrels which take place over the question of handling the societies' :funds.

I know trade union improvement' an · 't·he in in .

Right now 1 think a qua,rrel is ensuing and t he president is und.er pressure.

I think it was said to · me that he was the onh, person whQ did not empty his pockets on a particular I refer to Clause 8' whel'e it is night.

• 30!)
• 30!)

Friendly Societies LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ( Amdt.)

Bill 316 .held that no person should hold more than one office in one socie'ty, and I think that sort of provision would be a good thing to save some of the peop!e from themselves.

It may be that t her e a re persons who circulate from so itself ci ety is s:i:;•ecu.la,tion which we have to prevent.

W hile a good man can serve many societies, the provision is a very wise safeguard.
to society, and that a for m of in Finally, may I suggest to Govern ment that as these societies are small and their funds depend on pennies in week afte·r wee~-andl be going lieve me, I a m amazed to see the re gularity with which people go to pay ·t heir s'Ociety dues night after night, and still more s urprise,d to see the number of people who.

collect their the money at Christmas time-that expenses for their accounts be provided by Government.
· This is the only policy in c.onnection I would- -with which suggest any amendment wh,a,!;ever.

the auditing of Mr. Tello: I also associate my$e1f with -the congratulatfons extendedi to · Government for bringing forward this ·-:su1.

Indeed for many years we have accepted the friendly society as the insurance society.

It has poor man's · grown np from pressure of .

hardship and has proved especially useful in times of sickness and death.
Those the cir,cumstances under which 11re local societies have grown up ; and with this growth there have always been associated practices which were not a lways complimentary.

I appreciate that steps ar e being taken here to protect the funds of t he poor man's society and to .

give him confidence in that society, and also impartial to provide for audit ing.
I that say we also have into account than one off ice at the hold more same time in one or more of these societies, to take throughout the history of this social movement the treasurer has been always the one whose position has been criticized q,n,i who has always been held up lo s u spicion.
One can appr eciate the fact t h at the services of a treasurer w ith some degree of honesty w ill be in de mand, ,ind I a m wondering if we a re not being hasty by restricting him to the service of one society, after havin.g made the provision in the Bil!, at Clause 10 (2 ) , that " The Regist.rar may in his absolute discretion and without assigning reasons for doing so appoint an accountant to in spect and if necessary to au dit the books of a soci'ety at any time and report to him thereon."
' As a matter of fact, as a t rade union,is t I am wondering if this amend ment does not constitute undue inter ference, beca use it seems to me that ·when members are suspicious that the accounts are not in order, i't should be their pr erogative to notify t he Registrar to take the necessary steps to assure t hem t h at th eir funds and auditing a1·e being handled in the proper· manner.
J am in sympathy with step s being taken for correct conduct on the part of t hose who have to deal with t he funds but, as a trade unionist.

I cannot accept th is thing.

I hope that t he debate on the second r eadin g will be marked with i:'.uch liveliness that I may learn a little more of .

the thoughts of my .

colleagues I suppose some mem on this subject.

bers will lie expressing the opinion of members of the societies, and I hope I will get an opportunity· overnight to study t he Bill.

.
.

· While I agree that it might be a ,dangerous practice for one· person to Mr. Speaker ( addressing M.1·.

Carter): What ~bout your exper ience?

311 Friendly Societies 22ND FEBRUARY, 1954.

( Amdt.)

Bill 312'; Mr. Carter: What did you say, Your Honour?

Mr. Speaker: the hon.

I Member, Mr. T ello, would like t o hea r of your experiences.

think Mr. Bobb: There is no need for tne to enlarge upon some of the aspects of this Bill which is before us.
There is no doubt that some of its prov,isions will assist in removing what is described as malpractices, but what I am troubled about is whether the societies concerned are aware of legislation.

The this answer is, of course, that it has been published aind we cannot readily find a way by which societies can otherwise become important measure.
It must be realised that it is prudent business for leaders to be in touch with development so that they may be a.Ible to guide their members at the proper time-and I am thinking of 'those small societie·s which , I may ven.

ture to suggest, would not know what is contemplated.
aware of t his • 't.... this that 'they have The effect of legislation upon members of the societies would be something like this : they awake to find to put their rules in order., haye their accounts straightened out, mayb~ withdraw funds and suspend the financial statement, all of which would have the effect of disbursements from bonus at 'the end of the year.

That may sound compli I am wondering if when this cated.
Bill goes through-as I expect it will 'tbe mover will allow a reasonable time to pass before it acttially takes effect.

I know that some societies begin to plan in February or March wha't they will do in December and I am ver y un certain as to whether they will have time enough to put t heir houses in order, so to speak.· I am suppo1'ting this measure but there is one suggestion I wish to make and that is that the people m11st be made fully aware of what they have to - do.
I am sorry I have to express f ear while at the same t ime congratulating Government, but it is to assist the , people, and therefore every opportun ity should be taken that 'the end-result is a good one.

It So far, there is going to be a is a these societies.

check on fact that there is much room for the development of these societies and I was very pleased to hear reference to the.

possibility of these societies becoming later on, part of any insur ance scheme intended for the benefit of the s mall .
man.

I hope it will be, possible a lso t o include something which will enable the Legislature to give constructive he1p in the development of these societies.

to check _ Merely to send accounts and set tle disputes is not.

enough; I think the societies should be • able to call upon the services of inspec- tors who could give them ideas for fu r- • ther de.velopment, s uch as is done in the co-operative field.

In the present cir cumstances this is not a requirement but a demand.
These societies have a : long and maybe chequered existence; co-operative the other societies on hand, a re more recent and have given quick and good resul'ts, but I do not .

the friendly think societies.

they will replace inspectors The Chief Sec retary: Several hon .

.

Member s have spoken about the neces- sity for f urther c@nsideration of the provisions of this Bill.
I am afraid I · am not in a posit ion t o say what con- · sultat ion has 'taken place between the · Registrar of Friendly Societies and _ representatives of the societies con cerned with respec't to the Bill.

If this · debate is adjourned for a da:,- or two, however, I shall be able t o make the·· necessary enquiry, 313 Friendly Societies LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Appropriat-ion Bill 3U 1\ir.
Speaker: I think it is right that oppor'tunity should be given to these societies to give careful consid eration to the Bill.

Publication of the Bill in the Gazette does not help them very much.

Unfortunately, there are no copies of the Bill available for dis tribution now., and I am- wondering whether it would not be 'the best thing to defer it for a day or two so that the the question of its consideration by societies concerned might be gone into.
The Attorney-General : Perhaps to.morrow we might hea1· whether it is reasonable !that further consideration should be given 'to it.

Mr. Speaker: Perha ps we might expect the Chief Secretary to be able to say something more abou't the oppor tunity for discussion among the soci eties concerned.

Is there any objection to postponing further consideration of the Bill?

The Chief Secretary: I have no l have already stated that objection.
I am not in a position to tell the Coun cil whether, in the cou·rse of the draft ing of the Bill, the draughtsman and the Regis'trar of F,riendly -Societies con.

sulted representatives of the societies.

If t he Bill is postponed until tomorrow or some other day, I shall be able to find out.

Mr. Spe·aker: Further consideration of the Bill is postponed until tomorrow, with the understanding that it may or may not be proceeded with then.
Would the Financial Secretary like to take the Customs (Consolidation) (Amendment) Bill, 1954_, now ?

.

The Financial Se"Cretary: No, Sir.

If I am permitted, like to complete consideration of the Appro priation Bill, 1954.

I should APPROPRIATION BILL, 1954, Council resumed consideration in: Committee of the Bill in'tituled- "An Ordinance to appropriate the supplies granted in the current session oi the 'Legislative Council."
The Financial Secretary : I pro pose to move an amendment to the pre amble of this BiU, consideration of the other parts having been conc1uded ..

There is a sum of $2,896.,905 mentioned in the preamble, and in place of that I want the sum of $2,719,295.

.

This sum, added -io the sum provided in the Bill, makes a total I was unable to move, of $33,815,687.

I knew what this amendmen't until would be the fate of the Audit Depart ment Bill.
subs'titute to Amendment put, and agreed to Title and Enacting Clause.

The Financial Secretary: I also, beg to move the deletion of the Enact ing Clause and the substitution therefor of the words "Enac'ted by the Legisla ture of British Guiana."

Amendment put, and agreed to._ Coµncil resumed.

The Financial Secretary: I be.g· to, move that t his Bill, as amended, be: now read a 'third time and passed._ The Attorney-General seconded,_ Question put_, and agreed to.
Bill read a third time and passed.

Mr. Speaker: Council adjourned until 2 p.m., tomorrow.

is now