Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698077698750.pdf (Guyana)
9!J Members Present LEGISLATIVE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

inated).

CO'!.JNCIL Sugar Estate WO?

'.kers 100 The Hon.

J. W. Jackson, (Nom­ Friclay, 2ncl June, 1944.

The Hon.

T. Lee, (Essequibo River).

The Hon.

H. N. Critchlow , (Nom­ inated).

The Council met at 12 noon, His the Governor, Excellency Lethem, K.C.M.G., Chair.

Sir Gordon President, in the The Hon.

A. M. Edun, (Nom­ inated).

The Clerk read prayers.


PRESENT: The minutes of the meeting held on Thursday, printed read and and circulated, 1st June, 1944, as were taken as confirmed.

The President, His Excellency the K.C.M.G.

Governor, Sir Gordon Lethem, ORDER OF THE DAY The Hon.

the Colonial Secretary, SUGAR ESTATE WORKERS ADVISORY COMMITTEE REPORT.

Mr. W. L. Heape, C.M.G.

The Hon.

the Attorney-General, Mr.

M.C., K.C.

E.0.


Pretheroe, Mr. JACOB asked and the COLON:IAL SEGR1ETARY laid over to the following replies questions:- Q.-1.

In view of the tact that the The Hon.

the Colonial Treasurer, M.r.

E. F. Mc David, C.B.E.

The Hon.

E. G. Woolford, O.B.K, K.C.

(New Amsterdam).

The Hon.

F. J. Seaford, C.B.E.

( Georgetown North) . }

The Hon.

C. V. Wight, (Western Demerara).

i The Hon.

J. I.

De Aguiar (Cimtral (Demerara).

The Hon.

M. B. G. Austin, O.B.E., (Nominated).


Aclvis· will Govern­ of workers, the Commissioner a statenrnnt do not relate to factory and/or given in the report of statistics the Sugar Estate Workers ory Committee particularly all classes ment request of Labour to prepnre from the records Sugar Factories tion of this Honourable which should be incorporated his 1943 report, inl?
; particulnrs from 1st January, June, ,a111d December, 1943:- with the follow­ for the, two periods 1943, to 30th from 1st July to 31st of the seventeen for the informa• Council in (a)Total acres of.

sugar-cane reaped on each EstHte?

(b)Total tons of sugar-rane ground in each factory?

(c)Total (lays each foct0ry operated?

J. Berbice).

The Western (\Vestern (d) Total actual weeks each operated?

( any quarter to be converted and half week into wc,ik).

J�cql:).
J�cql:).

(North (e)Total hours each fact.ory operated?

(f) Average hours each w,"ek.

operated each factory 7 101 Sugar Estate Workt1·s 2 JUNE, 1944 Co-op.

C. Ba11k Bill 102 of male (g) Average number in each workers employed factory each day?

1h) Average numner of female workers employed in e::tch factory each week?

(i)Average number of male A.-3.

Government con,;iclers that th•J Committee performed its duties satisfactorily and accepts ings contained in the Report.
the finct· CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT BANKS BILL, 1944 and female workers em-· ployed in the following classes of piece work: -to cut, load, and transport sugar-cane factory sex separately?

from field to each weel,, and ell.ch The Council resolved the itself Committee Bill clause by clause:- to consider "A Bill intituled "An Ordinance solidate Co-operative Credit Banks."

and amend the law relating to con­ to Clause 4-Constituticn o.f Boa,·ri.. (j) Total tons of and manufactured in each factory?
sugar bagged (k) Average tons of sugar bagged in each factory dur­ ing each week the factory operated?

actually (1) Total tons of :rngar thrown away in juice which was not converted into sugar from each factory?

Mr. De AGUIAR: I have a slight in respect of to suggest (4) that the quorum shculd amendment sub-clause be formed by four members instead cf five.

In view of the fact th::it the Board will consist meetings than two members are ubsent.
of seven members might fall through if mol'e the Com­ request Q.-2.

Will Government of Labour to make early missioner the informa­ arrangements tion mentionecJI 1 as from the begin'..'llll.g of this year so that his yearly report will include this in futurQ?

information in question to collect Mr. SEAFORD: l agree with that.

I spoke to the Attorney-General about it and he was in favour of always has reducing a casting it.

The Chairman vote.

A.-1.

& 2: The preparation Q.-3.


Is Government satisfied that the of the report by the Honour­ of Labour for of the Department but the 1943 has been concluded statistics desired able Member have been noted and of Labour will the Commissioner bear in mind for inclusion in future reports such information as it is within !1is powers to collect in the annual reports of his Department.

and is p mper for inclusion Mr. WOOLFORD: I think it ¥.

'ould be best to ha,·e an uneven number to form a quc-rum.
In the administration of the Board may be divided amount and the nature ot' the security.

the membership, You may increase but the quorum should be an uneven number.
of loam the members on Lhe The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It stated that its duties true that in the original and that the statis­ in the report Committee performed satisfactorily tics and conclusions could be accepted as reliable when the Committee its findings-that piece workers actuaily 2.3 <1'a.ys week respectively based on the approximate average number of workers and the of approximate average number days worked per week vide para­ graph 11 of the report?
is perfectly draft the quorum was four, but as far as I am concerned te four being substituted In the absence the Chairman vote.

We can give effect tion by substituting .sub-clause clause to provide shall have an original vote.

and 1.45 day's worlt per in 1943 -are will not have a casti.ng to the sugges­ that the Chairman and a ca.sting ( 4) and adding a new sub­ for five.

provision I have no objection of specific fonr for five in male and female perfon�ea 103 Co-op.
C. Banlcs LEGISLA'l'IVE COUNCIL (Consolidation) Bill 104 to sub- Mr. LEE: With respect a Bill recom­ of the Court clause (3) I move th�t an Elected Member shall be the Chairman of the Roard.

I am a member of the Advii;:ory on which the suggestion Committee If an was made and it found favour.

Chair­ Member is appointed Elected man of the Board he would have to answer to his electm·s General Election has done.

An Elected Member should have greater of money to peoplE>.
I to the lending move that the Chairman of the Board Rhall be an Elected Member of this by the Governor.

Council Commons would pass mending that one-half of the Bank of England should be Members of the House of Cummons.

The Bank of I1.

is unthinkable.

England Court, which is a Board ')f of 24 of the Directors, brains they can get in best financial England, and the financial of the country depends on the fact that they have the very best financial brains in the country on that Board.
The members of the Board select the Governor and naturally as Governor the mHn who they them­ selves consid(ir standing has the best financial reponsibility among themseh-es as to the work he with respect is composed nomin;.1ted aippoint at every stability .

to forestall Member of this Council The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I which rise to oppose that amendment yesterday I endeavoured in the absence of the hon.

Member.

The hon.
Member.

The hon.

Member is very anxious that an Elected shall be Chairman of this particular Board, and I was aware of the faet from the report of the Committee, that particular that he had advocated at a meeting of the Agri­ proposition culture Department Advisory Commit-­ tee.

I repeat now what I said yeRter­ day.

The hon.

Member is presuming that this Council, future, capable be right or he m,iy be wrong.

will always have four mernbc>1·s of managing a Bank.
He may both now and in Mr. JACOB: To a point of I think the Attorney­ correction.

what I said General misunderstood .

that the I never suggestec1 yesterday.

whole Board should be composed of Elected Members.

and I do not suggestion of the think it is the suggestion hon.

Member who has moved the nmendment.

That WHS not my yesterday at Any it is bound to otherwise not exceeding never have more These Banks are in a Wlwse than the Bank of England position which can alter its rate of interest will.
These Banks borrow money from Government at interest 3 per cent.

and lend money at not less than 6 per cent., so that they will than 3 per cent.

to play with.

.

Bank ·which has a 3 per cent.

margin to work on has to do extraordinarily good businesd fail I do not say that this Coundl cannot produce members and a Chair­ man now, but you have just wit:'ened the franchise i� not very far away, and one cannot what the constitution of this guarantee Council will be in a very short space of time.
It may easily happen that no member has knowledge to be Chairman of the Board.

On the other hand there may be one or two mem­ bers who have the knowledge, Bill stiggests I do not suppose that the prese�t of Agriculture Directo1· knowledge particular he has thi;:: Asset: that for a gTeat many years, Banks.

claims any of banking b�t that we play for safei"v. and a General Election he has operated these very but this The A TTORNEY-(rnNF.RAL: I accept what the hon.

Me;nber ha:=: ,aid.
Me;nber ha:=: ,aid.

What I say now applies bership of the Board and stm more so to the Chairmanship I remarked yesterday in.conc�iyabl� cf the Board.

that it was thflt the House' of to mem­ The B1rnks went through a very bad time after the last war and I think 14 of them went He has· pulled the into liquidation.
tbl\t Banks through It is suggested 105 Co-ov: C. BanlcR 2 JUNE, 1944 (Consoliclation) Bill 106 of It is no small a number of experts to the Board to advise him, who has successfully he should have appointed and that he, with his knowledge how the Banks operate now, should continue as Chairman.

asset to a Bank to have a man as Chairman on during the past 12 or 14 years.

He knows the staff who are operating these Banks.


There are quite a number of Banks, and 1 suggest the material advantage Director very substantial.

to be gained by having the is of Agriculture advantage, as Chairman carried the financial that Apart from that there is another of keeping of his Department in having an offi­ He has the of convening information of what is happening.

an Elected Member as meetings for the the members of the definite advantage cial member as Chairman.
whole machinery for the purpose and producing purpose Board informed If you appoint Chairman he either has to use his ovvn personal staff to keep in touch with members or he has to get the Director the staff for him.

There, is no provision for that and in view of the difficult financial we are about to face in a few short years' time I suggest play fo1· safety.
with a man who has had experience, but we are apt to go wrong if we pnt a new man who has not the neces::;ary experience and probably necessary not the qualifications.

of Agriculture We cannot go wrong that we should position to furnish The CHAIRMAN r_to Nir.

Lee).

Are you moving an amendment?


Mr. LEE: Yes, sir-"that the to the of certain Chairman of the Board shall he an Elected Member.·' According Bill the Board shall consist members, Director say that the Governor to appoint to be members of the Board.

It gives the Governor one of whom shall be the It doe;; not the right to nominate of Agriculture.
ha::; not the right members of the community the best people to serve as members of the Board, and I feel sure Your Excellency is not going to choose any and every person who has no experience.

1 submit that you have the right to appoint members of the public or Members of this Council in whom you repose confidence with respect to the of public funds.
I notice investment that the Chairman of the Ad vis0ry Committee Department concurrence if he was appointed Board he would continue services is not in favour of my proposal suggest that of the seven members.

of the Board four Members of this Council.

desire is to see Elected Members shouldering responsibility.

The trend in England and elsewhere is that representatives shoulder has the staff of the at his disposal with the of the Director.

Similarly, Chairman of the staff.


If Government more responsibility.

of the to have the of the people should should be Elected I wot1ld My only The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I capital.

of the share­ and have nothing to do with Members of do not desire to play Jack-in-the-box with the hon.

Member who makes the He says grossest misstatements.

that Elected Members are here to be responsible for public money.

So they are, but he assumes that these Banks are run on public funds.
They are not; they are run on private They are the property holders public money or Elected this Council.

fied that the Director has in the past rendered trusted might take their view rather than the mistaken and entirely view put forward by the hon.

Member.

Government Banks to start.

The Banks repay those adv:ances, standing and the amount out­ good and that we These Banks are satis­ is very small indeed.
of Agriculture misconceived makes advances and I suggest service, for the Mr. LEE: I am sorry that I have when been accused in clause 21 (1) it is stated,� of a misstatement LEGISLA'l'iVE Ccnmcrt (Consolfrlation) B'ill 108 "A loan or advance from public funds shall ·which is not registered not be made to any bank under this Ordinance."

What does that infer?

It means that mmey is going to be advanced from public funds.

Mr. DeAGUIAR: Will the hon.

Member read clause 7?

Mr. LEE: That is quite true.


I but when they need money they am not saying that the constitution of the Banks is not the people them­ selves, have to go to Government.

do not know whether I have clear.

Don't the made myself perfectly funds of the Banks come from the pub­ lic funds of the Colony?

1 "In addition, loans made to Rice during the past four years the Banks for reaping, Growers through ging and transporting $101;190.4G, standing.

Legislative Committee these Banks with a view to recovery.
"Acting on the advice c,f Mr. Pf this $'28,,826.32 ,is -out,.

by · Lhe Food Production Council are also made through The loans granted their padi total hag­ Adviser Benham, 'E'conomic !or Development Frederic to the Comptroller and in the West Indies., and Welfare by with views put forward in keeping the Director of Agriculture, have been made for the .further of credit facilities expansion terms and these Banks on easier loans.
making of larger To give effect recommendations to Mr. Benham's this connection a Bill is now before Legislative th.rough the proposals Council."

in to my comments sums of money have been the Attorney-General Yesterday on this when replying Bill, made the vague :,;tatement that considerable advanced.

''considerable dollars million dollars?

sums is no� sufficient.

report for 1937 says:- I should like to know what sumia;" mean-half a or a hundred Merely saying considerable Par.
18 of the thousand "18 The number of members who to the Banks at the end These owed loans .. 39 and intere1st to $80,42,5 to $4<,998.88, were debtors of 19,37 was 2,793. amounting amounting of $85,424.27 amount of loans outstanding $60,949.51 represented while the whole amount of interest making a total Of the total outstanding.

loans in arrear, was overdue.''

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: No.

loans Mr. LEE: Aren't they given by the Government·!
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I have before me figures which the and Banks have put up themselves they amount to an enormous sum.

Last year the amount ·.va<J $rn5,71Z which is many times over the total amount advanced by Government years.

The overwhelming funds belongs to private people.

Government advances 'J'he total amount of private adds up.

to over half a million while the total amount advanced by Government repaid in the ordinary within 12 months.
funds dollars for bulk of the is $89,742 which will be are refunded.

course of things Mr. J A.COB: I think this Council to better information from is entitled side.

In Your the Government Excellency's Review you made the following statement on page 14 :- "The busines.s of the Co-operative Credit Banks continues They are now indebted $89,742.86 a substantial four years .. in<:rease for loans from pul>lic funds within the r,ast in the sum of to extend.

of $4,000.
of $4,000.

Yet I see statements Credit Banks continues In other words, the Banks a-wed of the "a substantial in 1937.

Your Review issued a few days public funds $85,424 Excellency's ago puts the figul'e at $89;942; a dif­ ference made that the business Co-operative to extend,'-' words like those.

It is well that we have the figures.

I are made.

why these vague statements to public funds My friend referred and the Attorney-General said that public funds are not involved; it is a gross misstatement.
It is rather har:-;h to use such words, and when they are increase" and cannot understand 109 Co-op.

C. Banics 2 juNE, 1944 (Consoiidation) Biit 11() · side we have used from the official the right to use them as well.

What.

are the facts.?

The Attorney-General made a comparison England.

I cannot understand such a comparison with the Bank of why should be made.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I heard it for the first time.

Mr. JACOB: I have the news­ paper report here.


Thi.s is what the Attorney-General said :- "If, for instance, Memller.s of Par­ to run the Bank of England in very little if Members of Council in banking were to run the bank it would liament with no banking experience undertook it would be shattered time.

Similarly, with no experience appointed also be shattered ple with experience banks were found in Insurance panies and Building SociE.ties, and Government to appoint the strongest Boarcl."
must have the full power in running s11cll in quiek time.

Peo­ po.ssible C0m­ Why should Members of Parlia­ I think it is owned by These Banks will not people but sub­ of ,vants to help poor credit, it of the people ment nm the Bank of England?

I do not think it is run by the Imperial Government.

private people.

be owned by private stantially owned by the taxpayers the Colony who will loan money.

'Without the taxpayers' money these Banks would not be operating at a.11.
I want to suggest in all seriousness that if Government people to have co-operative must have representatives on the Boarcl.

I speak on behalf of my constituents.

of any fraternity.

abuse the Civil Service, in the Civil Service fraternity.

maintain that Government could be representatives as well, but if they form a fraternity and one chooses hide his faults it is not my fault if I I speak on behalf of my constituency.
have specific instructions majority Director from the of my constituents that the of Agriculture I am not ·a member I am not here to but I am not to defend another and of the public officials has been of 1 the production little or no use to them.

He has not helped them in any way, and if he is to be in charge of these Banks they are going to be a failure as in the past.
I wish to say he should be a member of the Banks' Board but certainly not the Chair­ man, because in his hands they are going to be led to miserable fail­ ure as in the past.

I take it that these Uanks are intended primarily ir1crease of food of every kind.

I am accused of being personal one or two Officers.

The Director Agriculture me and I am very friendly and hope still to be.
He and I were sent at Government's expense to Suriname to look after the rehabilitation Coffee industry We went and returned and agreed that help ought to be given and he would recommend that help be given.

Be,;ides the Coffee industry stituency build up a Citrus Fruit my cor-­ is one of the best places to has been very friendly with in my constituency.

industry with hi.m to of of the to .

The CHAIRMAN: \Ve are dealing with clause 2 and there is no need to hear about the Coffee in<lustry.
Mr. JACOB: I take it the Constitu­ tion of the Board will deal with these industries.

the Director being The CHAIRMAN: The hon.

M<>m­ ber is not opposing a member.

What he wants, and I under­ stand his colleague is that a cert::>.in the Board be Elected Council.

be Elected You suggest that four sh,mld Members of the Council.

number of the members of Members of this wi:-;hes, Mr. LEE: Yes.

The CHAIRMAN: That is the amendment to which you are speaking?

Mr. JACOB: Yes; we are speak­ ing to clause 4.


The CHAIRMAN: As to whether four or seven should be Elected lVIem- lli Co-op.

C. Banks LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL (Consolidation) Bill 112 bers.

We can leave the Director as you will have another chance at the (3).

Let us Director under sub-clause (1).

get through with sub-clause Mr. JACOB: I do not think it is I was attempt­ discussion.

If you rule that I should speak (1) I have nothing to fair to stifle ing to reply to the hon.

the Attor11ey­ General.


on sub-clause say on that.

I maintain of Agriculture Director member of the Board and I shall take my seat.

should be a that the last year is time to time, and it may be trne that the amount outstanding I have quoted that only $89,000.

has merely to show that Government been rendering to these Bank!s.

The figures quoted are cnly balances.

knows what I mean.

They do nc,t by the actual amount any means represent of money advanced by Government from time to time.
a little assistance The hon.

Member Mr. LEE: Perhaps I have not that they had to go into made myself clear.

In my constituency the Co-operative Credit Banks at Leguan and W akenaam were so mismanaged I do plead with you and insolvency.

them.

1l'i'e to resuscitate Government want more production.

I feel this, money lent to the Banks from public funds should be produc­ Members take their tive.
If the Elected duties to heart they would realize that to see that this they are obligated money is properly spent.

I am certain that given the responsibility they will see that duty is, carried out properly.

on various Boards, hut very care­ of this p:,rtic­ Mr. DeAGUIAR: I think that one can be in sympathy with the general of hon.

Members for Elected request representation I do ask them to consitler fully the establishment lllar Board and not press the point in the way they are doing.
Pei·haps I may be allowed to say on this general question doubt about it prim,a facie these Banks belong to the people.

If not, then the word "co-operative" removed from the Bill.

The primary object is to educate these people in co-operative generally tries they are anxio•1� That must he the back4sround whole of this thing.

It ii: true tl}e Government methods of banking :i.nd to assist them in the i'.lrlus­ to develop.
of the advances money from that tthere is ;no should be Mr. JACOB: May I ri,se to a I do not know if point of correction?

tbe hon.

Member understood me yester­ day.

I. gave the loans granted during 1937 as amounting page 4 of this Report.

to $30,962, as per The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: What the hon.

Member quoted was loans made by the Banks to members and not by Government to the Banks.

on the history and lending ceased for The COLONIAL TREASURER: T thought the hon.
Member was much more informed of the whole thing.

He should remember that the Government had a policy of lending these Bank,& every year sums of money, but then there came finan­ cial difficulty the time being.

But shortly outbreak of war I myself pat forward proposals urging that we should resume lendini Co-operative by year.

Immediately accepted from the Director of Agriculture asking to obtain these loans.

Hon.

Members will remember that for the last .


two years we hacl excess vote:ii of fairly considerable there was a strong pressure Credit Banks money year to Government that policy was after th£' sums.

Mr. JACOB: May I interrupt.

to sums'' ask what ''fairly considerable means?

Will the hon.

Member name the sums?

The COLONIAL TREASURER: The point They are in the Estimates.

is, the Banks themselves asking for money to the extent requir- have been Banks 113 Co-ov.
C. 2 JUNE, 1944 (Consolidation) 13-ill 114 Mr. JACOB: Mr. J. L. Wills is a Barrister-at Member will not mislead this Council.

Law.

I hone the hon.

Mr. DeAGUIAR: I think Mr. J. L. Wills is another man at Buxtcn.

Then Mr. C. Farnum.- Mr. JACOB: He is in George­ money purpose::;, has been refused.
who dealt with the loans that in not a single insb;r1ce 'l'he the scope of their ed and those Members uf the Execu­ tive Council will recall an application Banks extended activities and are now lending for different money asked for has been granted them.

I cannot give tht exact figures now, but it is perfectly out.

If the hon.

Member give me some time I would let him know how much public money was advan.red during the last three years.

I c11n assure you it was a considerable ':lllm indeed.
easy to f;nd and all the town.

Mr. DeAGUIAR: Pardon me, he to the for the spirit.

I do not know if hon.

at Kitty.

I only m0ntion that Mr. DeAGUIAR: I have not yet the few remarks I have risen to make.

What I want resides to show it is not only the lawyer mem­ bers' business.
Members who have spoken have shares may want in these Banks and, perhaps, to claim representation on them, but I concluded say the,;e Banks are intended actually people and I am going to ask you espe· to emphasize is the co-operative cially when the time comes for appQint­ I want to convey to hon.
Memhen; ing members of the Board of these what is in the mind of Government, Banks that due regard be paid to the of the people in possible and I invite their attention the advice and the because the districts personnel of the Board, the members information you can and the af-sistance of the Board of the:-;e Banks.
get from the If you refer to the present where these Banks personnel to be very valuable Agriculture cessful operation Member of this Counc:.il and three said at the beginning, other individuals.

pathy with the general question ance there are five members three having Elected representation of whom are not Members of Boards but tqis Council which, I think, a certain .J!ff the Banks in the districts.
After latitude Jn it must be remembered tion of members and the appointment Banks operate of members on this Board not restricted Members.

people in the districts operate are going indeed for the suc­ of the Banks.

As I one is in sym­ of on but are actually members Mr. JACOB: To a point of to as many as four Elected should be given in the selec­ :vou have the Director representation in the dish·icts.
Unrl<::r this On'!in­ as Chairman, one Elected that these amount of of this is one of the cases in I do not think it is correct correction!

to say they are in districts.

names of the parties where they are.

Give the and let us kn0w Mr. DeAGUIAR: The Rev.

Mr. Dyett-I do not know if he lives in Georgetown.

The hon.

Member m'ly enlighten of him he was on the Corentyne Coast.

Mr. J. Wills---as far as I know he is a I do not �mow whether Buxtonian: the hon.

Member thinks he is a lawyer.

me.


The last time I heard Mr. AUSTIN: With your permis­ on the presence ought to sion, sir, I think the Council congratulate of itself a Member who is not very often pres­ ent and frequently his colleagues questions has to get some of to assi:--.

:t him in asking petitions.

and tabling Mr. LEE : To a point of order!

Has that anything to do with the debate?

Those remark,\l are hurled at me.

:r prefer to be honest.

I.. 115 Co-op.


C. Ban1cs LEGISLATIVE COliNCIL (Consolidation) Eill 11G request of but l kno,,· these tell the Banh not I am not speak­ If anyone wants he can take it.

It is a legitimate the bor,rower, financiers to lend and they do not lend.

I do not want that to occur.

ing about politics.

my seat in this Council This Ordinance to protect loans on security of interest.

who are responsible on this Board.


If should be appointed you do not want Elected Members on it then it is left to you.

They are responsible for these loans and should see that the loans are given to agriculturists is especially the people by giving them rate at a reasonable The Elected Members to the public who want them.

provided I have these purile I they before them?


I am from my colleagues to the people he desires will have to investigate to think that in this debate Mr. AUSTIN: Apparently touched somebody (laughter).

understand to.

I do not know where he belonged understand Esse­ be is the Member for quibo River (Mr.

Le:e).
Le:e).

l do not know if anybody thinks not, but is he really doing service to help by bringing matters forward, or is he endeavoiw:­ ing to get for the four Officials who probably these matters a wee bit more information inclined this morning which has away from long time we are straying views on behalf of those indi­ helpful viduals whom districts in the outlying we would wi:-:h to help.

I cannot see that we are helping debating it is being done this morning by various Members.
about the country like to do, but we do know and realise that, as the hon.

the Attorney-General, I think, suggested, coming on and there is a u,seful way, perhaps which may be of service We do not all travel as much as we would anyone at all by in the way in which way, of propa,ganda the elections a personal matters taken such a are to- the to do with politics Mr. SEAFORD: I think it is a recognised throughout principle British Empire that banks should have nothing politicians do with banks.
I do feel that if Govern­ ment is going to bring politics into these Banks and make the Banks the concern grave misfortune it would be a of politicians, for this Colony.

should not have anything to and The CHAIRMAX: I think we are.

know what yotU· arguments Mr. JACOB: To a point of order!

I do not think the hon.

Member is speaking Council.

on the question before the The CHAIRMAN: hon.

Member may, perhaps, more direct.

himself I think, the address Mr. AUSTIN: That comes un.der ihe bead of propaganda.
Mr. LEE: What I would like this has been my to realise-it is made Chairman and I give it as I have Council experience found it-that when a Government Official especially Credit Banks, this is what happens.

know of several go to the financier say '·Give the to give Mistress and Bank an advance so a:-: of the district instances of a Board, where they So and So this money.
that of the Co-operative I then we system, of economic and this Board as a it, it means small Banks Mr. EDUN: I want to be clear on this point.

I think the discussion was more or less on the constitution of the Board.

As I understand that there will be several in the districts central will be the guiding authority hand in giving loans to these Banks.
If it is a co-operative ought to think more and more of the For question of an that reason I think the question Elected of this Board comes within the purview of We preach so economic democracy.

much about it all the time, but we do not see it here.

The reason for the misapprehension, Official a certain Government whom definite ar� being put should be the Chairman of this Board, that is actuating mind of everyone Member as Chairman sir, is this.

Because in this country.

democracy.


statutory the If for obligations il 7 Co-op.

C. Banlcs 2 JUNE.

1944 (ConsoUdation) Bilt 118 Council Paper (Legislative Committee No.

14 of 1942), a very valuable signed by Mr. E. Mortimer Duke as Chairman.

It makes certain and definite Paragraph references to these Banks.

report specific bank to of the Credit Bank by the credit or not.
The manage- Co-opE�·ative in the management has such a commanding Credit Bank that whether a loan has heen informed of a certain rice 24 says: "The Committee that the proorietor plantation influence district he can, and does, dictate shall be granted one of his tenants 111E.1nt of a Co-operative should not be subservien.t to the interests or the whims, of a proprietor of rice lands The proprietor of the Plantaiion did n�t avail himself of thEt opportunity to give evidence do not know what defence chargE' laid against that administrative be adopted to put an end to any situation whe-reby the self-Interest of any propritltor rice lands may conflict to a Co-operative persons loans.''
him.

We recommend measures to to the bank for before us, and so we who apply h€ has to 1.he with his duty Credit Bank and of The CHAIRMAN: What has that got to do with the amendment?

of the Governor is the expansion of Agriculture should not be brought so odious as not to talk about of the system of small that these loans are good and is good?
No, sir; the Member for North (Mr. Se11ford) that into this we are to be guided by the experience of the past, then surely this Council ought to agree that it should be left entirely in the hands of the Colony to say who should be the Chairman of this Board.

Why the Director must be the­ Chairman?

Is it because he is to ascertain the security question of co-operative financing people.

When the hon.
When the hon.

the Attorney­ General spoke about the Members of Parliament becoming Governors of the Bank of England, I thought the com­ parison it.

I agree with the hon.

Georgetown politics issue at all, but this is not a question of politics.

mics and economic idea is to encourage their own banks and to go to this Cen­ tral Board for assistance.

going to have the same old system foisted whom the whole country distrusts, we will be prolonging and it will be agreeing statements made here.
We ought not to discuss the little When the hon.

Member for Central Demerara spoke about banks and boards he was confusing subject.

leading The question Constitution should be the Chairman.

of econo­ democracy.

The the people to make before the Council of the Board and who on us of having Officials I do not know what he was the atmosphere.

the situation, items but clarify It is a question banks or boards.
us to, whether with certain the whole If we are is the effec­ Mr. JACOB : That replies to the remarks of the hon.

Mem­ should be Demerara that people as effectively tively ber for Central from the country districts on this Board and equally to the remark� of the hon.

Member for Georgetown North who says politics should not come into it.

We had private interest domina­ ting and prejudicing tive Credit Banks in the past, and I do not think we should perpet­ uate that in the future.
these Go-opt�ra The CHAIRMAN: The amendment will come under sub-clause (3).

We are on sub-clause of the Board.

(!

)-Constitution Mr. EDUN: I think four members of the Board ought to be Elected Mem­ bers of Council democracy talking everywhere.

about it and not doing it.


if we are aiming at It is no use Question "That the words four of whom shall be Elected Legislative clause (1)" divided, Members of the be inserted in sub­ put, and the Committee the voting being as follows:- Council For: Messrs. Edun, Lee, Jacob and Peer Bacchns.-4; Mr. JACOB: I have the report of the Rice Farmers (Terms of Tenancy) Messrs. Against: Critchlow, Gonsalves, Austin, DeAguiar; C. V. Wight, Seaford, Woolford, the Jackson, l1!J Co-011.
Bill 120 C. Banlcs LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL t Consolidation) Treasurer, Colonial General and the Colonial Secre­ tary.-11.

the Attorney­ Amendment lost.

The CHAIRMAN: Why such em­ phasis on the Elected exclusion instance, claims to represent sugar estates of Nominated a Nominated Members to the Me,mbers?

For Member who the workers on the had been excluded.

Mr. LEE: I was thinking of the future Council.

Sub-Clause (3)---Chafrman of the Boa1·d.


Mr. LEE: I move as an amend­ ment that the words ''An Unofficial Member of the Legislative Council'' substituted tor of Agriculture.''

for the words "The Direc­ be Treasurer but his hands of financing_ he would not like the then the Deputy is the proper person Mr. GOKSAL VES: I do not know what is the reason for the amendment.

I was just saying to my hon.


friend on my left (Mr. Austin) that I think the proper per,-on to run it should be the Colonial Treasurer, are so full with Rice and other matters that, perhaps, Banks' transactions to be mixed up with Rice.

I do think that if not the Colonial Cc.Ionia!

Treasurer 1.o be Chairman question to think that the Colonial the more proper person to be Ch.air­ man of Boards of this kind.

The Director is going to be .


of Agriculture on the Board having regard to a previ­ ous sub-clause assistance whether applicants or are engaged in industries can be I do suggest to the Chairman.

supplied for the consideration whether ber who moved the amendment he does not think the Colonial Treas­ urer should be made Chairman of the Board.

It is a of this concern.

I am inclined Treasurer are really farmers and any in regard to just passed, or guidance of the hon.

Mem­ is the hon.
Mem­ is the hon.

Member who The COLO�IAL TREASURER: I thank the hon.

Member for the honour but offered to the Treasurer, there is some mistake in the minds of some Members.

For instance, has just taken his seat spoke about This is not a Bill to create a banking.

bank but deals with Co-operative Credit Banks of which there is a large number, and the management of is vested in Committees.

those Banks Each Bank has its own Committee.

The hon.
The hon.

Member referred isms of the Rice Tenants Committee and the actions Committees.

mittee referred mittees ling body.

Therefore no real reference of certain members of that Com­ Com­ his remarks had to the Board at all.

and not to the central to the District The report of to critic­ control­ The function of the Board is to Committee see that the control registration of Banks, the of registration, cancellation and to make rules for their management and so on.
If Members would lonk at clause 25 they would of a Bank will have the power to make loans not exceeding $480, but when applicat ing that sum the Committee the Board which will investi­ report to gate the ma.tter and direct the Com­ mittee what to do.

The Board is not a Bankers' be to investigate loans.

will Board.
will Board.

Its main function for ion is made for a loan exceed­ has to applications The cluty of the Chairman of the that of a finan­ Board is not strictly but of a man who has wide cial officer knowledge of the of the circumstances people who are going to apply for loans.

It is primarily problem and that is why the Director of the of Agriculture Board and been recommended for the Chairmanship has been Chairman of the new Board.
an agricultural Mr. GONSALVES: Clause 15 the powers of the Board and of amount of control of any Bank.

The of defines gives it a certain the management Board will not have direct control 121 Co-op.

C. Banh Bill 122 2 JUNE, 194.4 ( ConsoUdation) the management have power to assume control Bank in certain of the Banks but will circumstances.

of any Mr. DeAGUIAR: It might save the time of the hon.

Member if he.

would read sub-clause (5).
I agree with what the Treasurer of the Government, officer a more as the stage the Treasurer, ha·s i::aid about the Director of Agri­ culture but I still think that now that the matter has reached important financial should be the Chairman I have every confidence to watch the finances ment and the public, that an Elected protect the public interest Although the Board may appear to be a formal Board it has a little more power to its elbow which it can exer­ cise if the necessity of both Govern­ and I do not see arises.
than he.

of the Board.

in his ability I have a general Mr. JACOB: I have read the Bill will I hope the meetings would thoroughly.

fall through and the Governor take action.

idea of the work that has been going on.

I am opposed to the number suggested the suggestion ber for New Amsterdam ford), because a number and there should be an uneven number to form a quorum.

I to any person having two am opposed votes.

I think the clause as printed should stand.

made by the hon.
made by the hon.

Mem­ four would be too small (Mr. Wool­ and Member could better The COLONIAL TREASURER There is one thing I would like to add.

should be kept I think the Treasurer the towarda in an independant After all Government Board itself.

is money to the Board.

going to advance position Mr. EDUN: I move that sub­ clause (3) of clause 4 be amended by substituting nor shall appoint the words "The Director ture shall be the Chairman Board and.''
the words "The Govern­ a Chairman" of Agricul­ of the for Mr, GONSALVES: I am asking Demerara As the Director not to press his of Agri­ the hon.

Member for Central (Mr. DeAguiar) amendment.

culture of the Board of the Government and since officers should set an example by attending regularly there should always be a quorum.

will be Chairman l The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: one way or the other.

have no leaning In fact in the original draft the num­ ber was four.

I would ask hon.
I would ask hon.

Mem­ bers to consider there are bers on the Board and the Council dissolved?

a number of Elected Mem­ is what will happen if The Board would disappear.

Amendment put, and carried.

Mr. DeAGUIAR: I move that sub-clause substitution the word "five.'

' (4) be amended by the of the word "four'' for .

Mr. JACKSON: I am satisfied that a quorum of five out of seven members is too large a number.

l .• number.
l .• number.

think four is a reasonable to one With regard to the objection man having two out that the Chairman does cise his casting "tie.''

not exer­ vote unless there is a votes I may point to Mr. JACOB: I am opposed that.

The Board will be composed of people who will take a definite inter­ est in its affairs.

attend the meetings up their seats.

From information have the Board meets very infrequent­ ly-not even twice a year.
I think that if this Board is not going to be a dummy Board, and if it is going to take an interest- If they cannot they should give I Amendment put, and carried.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: On behalf of the hon.

Member for Kew 1 move Amsterdam (Mr. Woolford) that the following (5) be inserted:- new sub-clause 123 Co-op.

C. Banks LEGISLA'rIVE COPNCIL (Consolidation) Bill 124- (5) "The Chairman shall have an orig­ inal and a casting vote."
Mr. JACOB: You will now have and three of Agriculture and the voting being equal the Director other members of the Board sitting ::>.t a table, the Chairman would exercise his casting a proposition that certainly r_nay not be approved of by the major- 1.ty of members who are absent.

It is a very dangerous thing probably vote.

In that way he could lead to failure.


support and will Mr. PRER BACCHUS: I find that people to purchase has been made in this Bill small lots no provision to assist of land in order to make themselves independent.

I therefore paragraph insertion between the words "the'' tenance.''

small man an opportunity to own a plot of land.

and "main­ The object is to give the of the word "purchase" (a) be amended by the move that Mr. DeAGUIAR: The hon.

He speaks of the of members.


There are fonr Member keeps on making statements that are not correct.

majority members present, two against.

his casting two vote for and The Chairman then use,; vote.

Mr. JACKSON: The same thing would occur if there were six rnr.m­ bers present.

If three vote for and three against the Chairman would exercise his casting vote.

Mr. JACOB: Yonr Excellency has no casting vote in this Council.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: l hope the hon.


Member will not press this particular amendment it because goes to the foot of the Bill.

If a man wants a loan he has to give security for it, and if the loan is over $480 he has to give ·s.ecurity of im­ in respect movable property .

Until he possesses that land he cannot give it as security.

L\ man who wants to buy land to make a start with has neither the land nor the money to buy it.
He is a very bad customer Member looks see that Banks may make loans for "the discharge on the applicant's a small man who has not any land would go elsewhere and borrow money and buy land he can then get an advance of that land.

I may say.

If the hon.

(b) he will from a Bank on the secur.ity at paragraph of prior encumbrances land."

Therefore, if The CHAIRMAN: I have.

I have no original vote.

Mr. JACOB: The Chairman of the Board would be having two votes.
He would be in a better position than the of this Council.

Prt:!r:;ident The CHAIRMAN: It is a matter of practical financing.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Your Excellency Council.

of the Board.

is not a Member of this is a member The Chairman New 11ub-c1ause (5) put, and , agreed to.

Clause 23 - Purposes for which banks ma11 orant loanR.

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: I do not is conver­ think the Attorney-General I see no diffi­ sant with local practice.
a piece culty in a small man offering of land he proposes as security the mortgage be passed at the same time.

to purchasE' for a loan from a Bank.

Both and the transport could to that to help those who Mr. JACOB: The more I li!,ten the debate the more I am satisfied it is not intended · way.

desire help in a real practical The amiss.ion in this clause of the Bill means that it is in.tended that these Banks should not compete with private panies w private moneylenders.
of the weird "purchase" com­ lending I 125 Co-op.

C. Banks z JUNE, 1944 (Consoiidation) Bill 126 of was ever quite distinctly were made for large loans, and The ·whole thing was turned it wonld have interfered was set up to investigate the occasion in this Colcny when appli­ recollect the floods cations a Committee �md advance money.

I do not believe the report of that Committee printed.

d0wn because with those people who were doing that kind of business at that time.
Lend­ ing companies advHnce money at 1 and 5 per cent.

The whole idea is to main­ 'tain a higher rate of interest Banks so that private enterprise have the lead.

This thing is going to and that is why he a hopeless I suggested charged by these BHnks should be less, than 6 per cent.

If Government really wants to help the poor man he should be given a chance.
I kn.ow hundreds of people who have small sums of money with which they would purchase land and mortgage it to a Bank, but of course Government's advisers lending and that is one of the main reasons why that ver:v material ch:ise" hl'ls been Iett out.

failure, that the rate of interest interested at the pre,sent time, at these should are largely companies word "pur­ in the t.o 4 and 5 per cent., but as far as I know the rate of interest is still 6 -per cent.
Mr. EDUN: I think it is a very I am Credit wise amendment.

For instance the holder of 25 shares at $1 in the � Vergenoegen Co-operative Bank which I have held since Hl18, and that Bank is still progre,ssing.

If I • wanted to buy a piece why shouldn't Committee the scurity of the land I propose to purchase?

With this amendment the Committee would be able to P.xercise some discretion in the matter.

hut without it they would not be able to do RO.


of land for $300 I be able to a8k the of the Bank for a hm on Mr. C. V. WIGHT: It is perhaps but I woulcl suggest which would have the a wise amendment an alternative same effect, and that is to give po,ver to the Board to purchase re-Mil to it.s members on a hire­ purchase be as safe as one could wi.sh.

system.
system.

That perhaps would land anc1 Mr. DeAGUIAR: I hope that no or other,vise would Bank, co-operative agree to lend $300 on a piece of hnd a borrower because would be certainly ruptcy.

to buy for $300 if it ever attempted to do so it heading for bank­ proposes, His remarks about Govern­ by those people Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: My amendment would not interfere with the execution for a certain of the claus,e amount as security.
which calls • Mr. SEAFORD: I am afraid I am going to give the hon Member a bit of a shock when I say that I am on the Board of two lending companies and I agree that the money should be lent as suggested by the hon.

Member for Western Berbice (Mr.

Peer Bacchus).

ment being influenced one can ignore because one knows the value put on statements he makes in this Council.

panies with which I am connected advanced money according progress I am wondering method cannot be adopted by these Banks.
I am absolutely the clause being amended in such a The way as to meet the sugge,stion.

hon.

Member said that lending com­ panies ha.cl reduced their interest rates to the of the work being done, and whether a similar in favour of One of the lending com­ Mr. DeAG UIAR: I quite appreci­ bit doubtful ate that.

There is a good rleal in what the hon.

Member has said but I am a little about how we could work it into this particnlar clause.

I do not know if the suggestion of the hon.


Member for Western Esse­ quibo (Mr. C. V. Wight) would meet.

it.

When you are lending money on land there are several be cons,idered - encumbrances prior claims other things to and like rates.

Before a 127 Co-op.

C. Banks LEGTSLA TIVFJ Bill 128 CO\JNCIL ( ConsoUllation) by the purchaser Credit Bank lends money land they will have to be about it, and there must in so far and so Co operative to pnrchase very careful be the necessary safeguards as advances on.
I think, subject the Attorney-General suggest little the point made and we should try and do something about it.

that we defer this clause for a while.

'fhere is something in by the hon.

Member, says, I should to what the hen.

·•rt shall have full power to purchase , take, hold,.

gage, invest able and immovable transport sell, enjoy, deal with mov- and otherwise " property .... _ ...... and mort­ I think the Bank has power under that clause.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The of one of value of Obviously made by the hon.

suggestion Member for Western Berbice (Mr. is one he made twelve Peer Bacchus) months ago when the Bill was first under consideration.

the first things you think of in draft­ ing a Bill of this !

'lort i;; that th� law of this country is the Roman-Dutch law.

One of the curious incidences law is the fact that the Roman-Dutch the charges on land go with the land.

In the English law that does not happen.


You may buy land and find that it has debts going with the land a great deal more than the You may buy a piece the land itself.

of land for $100 and have accumu­ lated debts of $150 on it.

That is the reason why at the moment we are giving the Bank this power.

Ceylon has the same law as the Roman-Dutch law and Ceyion has experience Co-operative long period.
The curious the Ceylon Chamber once tried io and it was make that same amendment on the ground immediately law while that under the Roman-Dutch you may be buying land you are really buying the debts in arrears.

Under the Ceylon Bill no advance of money is allowed for the purchase of land.

There is one other reason to ·which the hon.

Member has carried back.


Last October when the Bill was introduced Bills are intended -the Co-operative Credit and the Land Settlement Land Settlement provision of land and with this Bill is designed to work hand tenant desires land under the Land Settlement Scheme he will be able _to do so under out that two to go hand in hand Banks Bill Bill.

The in hand.
The in hand.

If a peasant to obtain his plot of Bill itself is making to obtain plots for advances discarded thing is that I pointed my mind of Mr. LEE: I do not think there ean to obtain the and 1 would like to a piece of lanrl and in respect of mortgages and on a loan from a Co-operative be any doubt about the righteousness of this amendment, c·xplain transfers.

I do not think Therefore this clause should be deferred lrnt should be passed today.
Let us say "A" wants to purchase makes a bargain to do so for $5,000.

He has $2,500 and desires balance Credit Bank.

In his application to the Bank for the loan of $2,500 he has to state definitely purpose the money is required, and he states it is required land by trans­ port.

When the application goes to the Bank the Bank's valuer is sent to see whether the property $5,000 and, if he reports then the loan is granted.

Transport i;: advertised mortgage amendment be inserted.
at the same time as the to the Bank.

I think the is worth favourably, is a good one and should to purchase for what Mr. C. V. WIGHT: I suggest that to own land.

the Board may be entitled T see no power here at the moment for' the Board to own land.

If a mortgage or a Bill of Sale is to be foreclosed, where is the authority Ordinance hold the property ary in case the purchase what it should be at the execution sale?
under the for the Bank to do so and if it becomes necess­ price is not Mr. LEE: To a point of explana­ tion!

If the hon.

Member looks at clause 13 of the Bill he would see it there, It says inlel' a}'ia: Banks for a considerably 129 Co-op.

C. Banks .

2 JUNE, 1!

)4,1 (Consolidation) Bill 130 to of Ceylon which travel with the land to the Land Settlement and he need not worry that 01:dinance with this one.
I admit that only Scheme applies but it does remove part of the objec­ Scheme tions as a Land Sett1ement will affect a large number 0£ people.

In view of the fact that each makes in one part for persons provision and that debts plots of land purchase in this country may be, I do not the purchaser whoever see why with the small margin of Bia we safety we have got under the should rush at this amendment and not follow the example has the same law.

Take the Bill as it at stands.


the moment until we see how this one works, and if the chances may extend it.

I do agree with the hon.

Member for Essequibo if a man has $2,500 an1l wants to buy a plot of land for $5,000 there is no you should not lend him reason why $2,500 and take the but the answer is the debts on the land may exceed on the Board the responsibility making quite sure the tracing on the land.
It will be wise to charges allow the clause to go through as it fs now and, if possible, come with the amendment Do not press the amendme:-•.t by all means later.

land as security, You cannot thrust for of all $2,500.

River that are fair we and all debts due to the Crown.

'l'hey all take preference.

Treasurer due to the Crown on that date.


can tell you what debts are The Colonial can always Mr. LEE: What 1 am saying is i., made to the that when application Bank the Committee enquire what are the outstanding debts.

To deprive this Bill of acquiring· will be defeating trade.

I which is to help co-operative This Rill agree with the amendme:nt.
is intended small farmers in the acquisition property of in the co-operative to meet tha needs of the the end of the Bill, a small holding the public under spirit.

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: I am a bit disappointed, remarks, according to the is concerned.

if this amendment more a creditor than in this Colony in so far in so far is concerned and, little ho11.

the Attorney-General's in this Colony are not that credito1·s much secured.
I understand, sir, there is no other part of the British Empire that affords 1,ecurity We as landed property have not had any difficulty I as landed property no trust, such difficulty go a little lations think, have been already applicant cledarat Thet, I think, is a bar to any appli­ cant asking for a loan to purchase property will be interfering by making a false declaration.

not think that difficulty in a generation.

practice has to make a statutory ion as to his indebtedness.
and having debts, bec::rnsl'!

,vith his liberty Under the Regu­ which, I framed, an is accepted would arise.

I would I do will arise in of this Ordinance further.

a he Mr. C. V. WIGHT: My attention had been drawn to clause 13.

I do not with the find myself in agreement hon.

the Attorney-Geneml on the of encumbrances.

If we question turn to clause 23 (b) and clause 28 (1) of the Bill we see there that a Bank may make a loan for the discharge encumbrances of prior on the applicant's land Cre1.lit claim?
Under the that was so.

As regards Mr. LEE: May I enquire from by Banks are old Gove·rnment whether loans made these Co-operative not a preferent Ordinance accumulated debts land.

The only debts on any land throughout except the towns, are village sea defences rates, drainage Bank's Committee position rates or irrigation and every member of a save and rates or and in his district.
this country, of the is cognizant that go with the The ATTORNEY-·GENERAL: ly the debts are outstandi!ng defence and village recently drainage rates and quite and irrigl;J.tion Usual­ sea rates, 131 Co-op.

C. Banks LEGTSLAT!VE COUNCIL (Consolidation) Bill 132 .

I Therefore on mortgage of a mortgage.

.

Those 1mow fully well that whether due to the Crown or of on the security of us in practice before a loan is granted you have to find out all the en<'um­ brances, the Secretary otherw1Se.
the figure a Loan Bank should have of the debts owing on the property.

do feel that if the Board exercises a wide and perhaps progressive clause 13 would meet the wsry outlook, by the hon.

Member point suggested for Western Berbice.

There can be no loss, as the hon.

Member for Central Demerara suggests� if you want to buy a piece of land for $300 and obtaining do not expect from the operation this Ordinance if a person comes along and wants to purchase piece of land he cannot obtain a loan.
I do hope there w.ill be some latitude in the oneration it will not keep strictly viewpoint.

mercial a loan of $300 on it.

I of ann.

to the com­ of this Ordinance as intended, a Mr. JACOB: The more I listen side, to the argument on Government the more I wonder whether Govern­ the view that all lands ment endorses should be leased rather than purchased and whether an important social extent, lem arises later on to a greater to the as stated by the delegates Anglo-Caribbean I think Commission.
you are defeating the object of this Rill, that is if it is not the real object to help the people.

prob­ from just want to say that l observe the remarks of the hon.

the Attorney­ General who can give information defences rates is the Colonial I am glad he has mentioned as to sea Treasurer.

that.

just now that the only person among the purchase Mr. EDUN: I would like to I do not this wise amendment.

and financing They call it box-holding.


of land ther.. about land of goodwill If in this case you do of a promissory of paper: it is include know if hon.

Members are aware of a system which is in vogue whereby money from twenty one person collects others every week and gives it to one of the number.

There is no question note or the exchange just a question those concerned.
not include I think, the idea of talking going hand in settlement The hand is simply eye-wash. whole idea of Your speech Excellency's on land settlement was based on finance and land holding.

Foresit the settlers nine years lease.

P er h a p s the f u t u re you may have all lands given out on a ninety-nine or twenty-five the trouble is if you omit that it would appear to us, as representatives that this question the people, s�ttlernent and finance which there is sincerity.
include people I would have to chnllenge sincerity.

Government's is not one in If you do not of the At Windsor have a ninety­ it, as a representative years lease.

The crux of of land years of in The CHAIRMAN: The hon.

Mem­ ber for Central Demeria·ra has sug­ gested that consideration be deferred.

Mr. GONSALVES: I have not it and, perhaps, heard anyone mention it is assumed that this clause covers whether a purpose it.

I am wonrlering of money for poultry is the lending farming and rearing of stock.
A man may have a small house and may be able to raise a sum of monev on a Bill of Sale under clause 28 < 4-) I do not know if under the provision Bill of Sale will be taken on poultry stock.

I do think that we should those people who are minded encourage that wa;v to carry on their business.

a I Mr. DeAGUIAR: I did that in order to assist the Bill r.ather than to interfere with the other part of the Bill.

Mr. JACOB: I iam going to ask that the question be now put.
Mr. DeAGUIAR: I wish to make it quite clear tha,t I am supporting the and on that ground l ask amendment, 133 Co-ov.

C. Banks Bill 2 JUNE, 1944 Public Health Bill 134 pending consideration that the matter be deferred further The hon.

Member for Wef:tcm discussed day and he wanted to .satisfy but not to interfere pai'ts of the Bill.

of the clause.

Berhice the matter with me yester­ with the other himself ·see that, but we are de!lling people's security.

this town will advance money in that way.


The risk is incalculable.

money and have to think of Do you think any Bank in with other on loan The COLONIAL TREASURER: 1 support the suggestion Member for Crmtral matiter be deferred.

Demerara of the hon.

that the The CHAIRMAN: ered by your Advisory It was consid­ Committee.

The COLONIAL TREASURER; The first persons who considered was the Director Registrar it of Agriculture, the and yourself.

Mr. DeAGUIAR: There is .\l great deal of merit in fhe amendment.
you You can buy animalt'>, is not but provision can manufacture, hind.

made to purchase machinery, of this Colony Mr. SEAFORD : With regard to companies value on the property the lending they fix a certain and give a ,certain but the mortgage through at the same time.

Therefore there is no risk run in any way.

proportion and the loan all go as loan, The CHAIRMAN: This point did not come up in discussion ?

Mr. DeAGUIAR: No.
Mr. DeAGUIAR: No.

Mr. PEE.R BACCHUS: I am a of I felt that who said he had been made in the member of the Committee.

such a provision past and I spoke to · the Director had no objec­ Agriculture Therefore I have tion to its inclusion.

here.

I have no moved the amendment to be con­ if it is deferred objection sidered by the hon.

the Colonial with the Treasurer Director back or referred to the Committee.

in conjunction of Agriculture Mr. JACOB: May I refer you to (g) and (h).
The first paragraphs essential you don't do is to own the land.

The thing is s.o absolutely wrong, I would not lend money to repair a factory when I don't own the land.

No lending company will do that.

I cannot understand has been left out and can be objected to at this stage.

how that The CHAIRMAN: With the consent of hon.

Members I will hold over the Bill from that point-clause 23.It is no use going on further that clause being settled.

without Further consideration was accord­ ingly deferred.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: This The Council resumed .

The Council resolVf:d itself into and resumed consideration PUBLIC HEALTH AMENDMENT BILL, 1944. studied.

been torpedoed to credit.

Its -provision hr.d Committee I myself of- Bill had previously by its best friends last October, and it will go on being torpedoed as long as people make suggestions expand the been most carefully spent two days in a Co-operative Credit Bank and made myself acquain­ ted with the procedure hon.
Members have been speaking about the co-operative the essential very easy to suggest should own his own plot of land.

I agree and would like to part of it, but part is the finance.

It is that every 011e of the Bank.

All "A Bill intitulecl e to "An Ordinanc amend the Public Health Ordinance, 1934."

: l The ATTORNEY-GENERAL the Council.

yesterday was addressing on the amendment 6 of this Bill when the adjournment was taken.
The amendml;!nt w:.is proposed to clause 135 Public Health LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL (Amendment) Bill 136 - moved without notice having been given and the experts and, the1·efore, deferred to discuss so yesterday.

it wi1th the experts.

I did The Director I asked that it be so as to get an opportunity were not present of Medical and Dr. Bevier came and savv \ Services me.

Before I say what they told me I would like hon.


Members to realize that those two Officers are worldwide to be taken for combating I think we are fortunate o n to what " experts on this subject and anti­ They spent a life­ measures.

mosquito the mosquito.

One time in combating by the whole of of them is consulted the South American Republics as to the measures mosquitoes.

in having those two Officers to advise us, and we ought not to grudge to pay some a t t e n t i their views on the subject are.
I told them of the nature of the amendment were ''We are expert advisers particular Cen'­ tral and South America.

tn come to this place to have an ordinary elementary this questioned.''

do my be.st to oppoRe it if given the What I put before you ammunition.

now are statements put to me by the two experts.


They said firRt of all that the mere trimming of trees, on thiR ·,rnbject in Australia, like precaution I tolrl them I would moved and their remarks and we have in of mos­ You can at the end of a lay their eggs every vats, etc.

Your gardens with millions Why spend money at all elae and destroying found there well knowing in the bush behind ing tubs, vats, drains, gutters and everything any mosqui,toes they are breeding and you can do nothing about it?
These mosquitoes eighteen days-hundreds.

work out how many million mos­ quitoes one pair of mosquitoes that bush will issue year in spite of all the examinatioD.

of gutters, are infested quitoes.

when you are going to leave virulent breeding ground right behind us.

Why waste money in asking us to do this?"

They quoted a case where there was an outbreak and they went up there with a squad of men and also visited ment.

They found large receptacles of water full of larvae but did noL find any mosquitoes.
mosquitoes millions.

Ntt a thorough ment, which they did, and found that �n those mosquitoes in a tree trunk with a small aperture c1uring the day and came out every night and laid their eggs.

They killed the mosquitoes aperture them, "Do you regard as important that to I ,-hould not allow this amendment ge through if 1 can avoid it?''

Dr.

certainly."

Bevier replied ''Most were on their wings in They then decided to carry and sealed up the in the tree trunk.
I said to of malaria at Bartica, lived permanently search of the Settle­ the Penal Settle­ yet every night � such as banana plants and shrubs, hopeless; -perfectly it does nothing � to destroy or the larvae the mosquitoes in the shrubs.

Dr. Bevier stated malaria problem that their greatest is of refa,ted to the breeding () in Trinidad mosquitoP-s those in shrubs, such a-s growing on garden lands in George­ town.
Those particular the most virulent pests they have in Trinidad of mosquito, has not yet arrived in Georgetown.

and breed a particular which at the movement shrubs are form The mere phrasing of this para­ graph of the clause as amended by the amendment simply sayR "l�eep trimmed all trees, shrubs, ing these particular etc."

Keep­ shrubs-anmilias i •· --trimmed is not easy and the experts pointed out "Why spend vast sum.
; of money on squads of men im1pect- Government They referred to the question that is what we are doing.

We are asking to help us in our fight not tak� ?"

They said by the hon.

Nominated Member, Mr. Critchlow-"Will steps to combat filaria "Certainly are That a·nd twenty other diseases carried by nwaquitoes.

the Council against the mosquitoes."

which asks them to com­ very Council will not itself bat the mosquito small thing which they ask.
Some of these mosquitoes live ia ,;hrubs and the worst breeding grounds are the open plots and fan-shaped If the amendment goes through what palm trees.

But the do this 137 Public Health 2 JUNE, 1944 (Am.endment-) Bill 138 there.

in the centre of the will breed said, "If you will happen in the case of these palm trees?

If you trim that tree you just cut off the leaves and all the water would collect mosquitoes tree and The experts rightly want us to fight the mosquito assist us.
If you do want us to do it as a matter of 80 then accept that we attack the great importance it is found-in mosquito wherever in the yards, in the house, outside the grass and in the water.''

I ask this Council to give the powers they are asking for.

please The CHAIRMAN: It seems that we have brought down the wrath of the experts upon us.
and not on under cir­ which I do not wish to do not know the men­ I suggest that these larvae be of this Colony who was prosecuted by a Sanitary Inspector cumstances recall.

It is the mentality of persons of tha,t kind we have as an example.

The experts tality of these people.

the duty of removing placed on the Authorities the householder.

force it on the community, after they have got use to it.
In the African Colonies and the stand it is done willingly people have got used to it, but do not expect ordinary to merely say "Oh, yes, we are ready and willing to do,'' and we have not plead the means to do it.

I earnestly that the clause be altered.

The are best fitted to do it.

Authorities It is much better to • people like ourselves it is\.

done.
done.

I under­ however, but not them, and I to keep free who are will­ of a or occupier larvae all trees, of Dr. Bevier, the obligation to my premises, The point is, there are Mr. WOOLFORD: I would like to make a few remarks in reply.

I am one of those persons who read the reports always I understand admi,t freely at all times some of these Inspectors though they are not always very care­ ful in what they do and how they handle things.

many other residents ing and ready to do the same thing.
If you read the clause it imposes on the householder premises from mosquit0 etc.

It may surprise gentlemen, this benighted and others have no facilities out the work required of them.

I know that in my own case and the experience who of my own friends have no garden scissors knives or implements trim trees.

Therefore the occupier to do this stances an obligation will simply mean his inability to do it.

Are you going.
Are you going.

to make him liable and have some Inspector person up before the prominent Court, as was done in the case of � Colonial Secretary shrubs, those learned to pare or to throw on in the present circum­ but it is the truth, that in or pruning bringing to carry a Colony hou·seholders May I ask the hon.

the Attorney­ shrubs, are governed an obligation hedges and by those words General if all the words of para­ graph (b) do not also govern ''on his or on any other person".

;; prem-· ises ?''
;; prem-· ises ?''

If all the words there-"keep trimmed and free from mosquito larvae all trees, plants" also, not only imposing but on his neigh­ on the householder bour, I think what was intended was ,.,.

that " shru'bs from overhanging roof gutters'' on any other person's as the paragraph thing.

I do not think that iR intended.

I hav,e only risen to suggest obligation quito larvae be removed to the Authority.
govern the words "on his or .i.·· but to keep free from mos­ reads, it is the whole premises," that the II to that those people who Mr. SEAFORD: May I suggest the hon.

Member for New Amsterdam (Mr. Woolford) have no scissors borrow from their neighbours use a cutlass?

people in this Colony have an oblig-� ation to their neighbours, and it is up to us to keep our premises and or I do feel that the or a grassknife 139 P.11.

(A mcit.)

Bill L!!
(A mcit.)

Bill L!!

:GISLATiVE COUNCIL Old Age Pensions Bill 140 ., plots of land in proper order and con­ So often we want everything dition.

done for us here.

A certain of responsibili ,ty should be put on us.

amount not to their prejudice.

definition after.


that the sanitary It is a closer people are Mr, LEE: I do not know if the In certain to the other Pub­ to the person as a penalty to carry it out and an order has been made by for a house to be taken and, if the order out, the law provides Bill can be applied lic Health Ordinance.

instances a Magistrate down or dismantled is not carried for the Authority recover who refuses to act.

I think it can be done in that manner.


A notice can be served that this work under the clause be done and the Authority should have the power to do it and recover the cost.

We are spending money on the protection of the health of the people and should not allow one person to menace the whole commu­ nity.

I think power should be given to the Authorities to carry out the work.

The CHAIRMAN : I do not see what all the fuss is, about.
The present Ordinance puts the onus on the owner or occupier to keep free from breeding The present phraseology is "keep trimmed and free from mos­ quito larvae,'' which as the present or harbouring of mosquito.

in the clause is very narrow, "The presence Ordinance states:- of mosquito larvat1 in of water on premises that the provis­ shall any collection be prima fade evidence ions of the preceding obeyed, and the owner or occupier, the case may be, of the premises liable to a penalty four dollars."'
as shall be twenty­ not exceeding have not been section I do not see that the At present to a penalty new law does anything else than narrow down the exist- ing liability.

one wottld be liable if mosquitoes are found on the premises, lrnt under the new law he would be only liable if mosquito narrower law and its operation b'enefit larvae are found.

It i� a provision will be to the and of the owner anct occupier thah the existing Mr. WOOLFORD: Why not remove "larvae'', will lead to prosecution?
since their discover y The CHAIRMAN: The idea is to is put on and it is up to him to do keep down disease.

the occupier his best.

It is a narrower than the existing Ordinance.

Liability provision Clause 6 passed without amend­ ment.

The Council resumed.

The •CHAIRMAN: As I have to the final said, we will not proceed stage of the Bill, and that question may be brought up and further considered then.

OLD AGE PENSIONS BILL, 1944.


A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to for the payment of Old make provision Age Pensions."

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Mov­ the ques­ North-Western Bill I need not remind (Mr. C. V. Wigiht) anct the ing the second reading of the Old Age Pensions hon.

Members of this Council that motions were ta,bled as long ago as 1942 by the hon.

Member for Western Essequibo hon.

Men1ber for Dis­ trict (Mr. Jacob) regax,ling t:on of the payment of Old Age Pen­ sions.
As the result of those motions a Committee· was appointed Committee duly reported, and the present Bill is to a very large extertt based on the recommendations Committee.

departures tions.

Hon.

Members will no doubt compare the Bill with those recommen­ dations.
The first thing to be borne in mind, as is so often said in this Coun­ cil Chamber, is that this is a big country with the best part of it hard­ ly occupied But there are one or two from those recommenda­ which makes the payment and that of that i4i Old Age 2 juNE, 1944 Pensions Biit 142 As in Barbados where very difficult.
of Old Age Pensions l understand, everyone is within 400 yards of a Post Office it is quite easy to pay Old Age Pensions, with people resi­ but in this country dent as far away as the Rupununi is not so easy.

It is easy to provide the money but the machinery for the physical to function.

payment is not easy required it at a total exceeded I want to impress a year, but in fact Old Age Pension.
in the same as in England, the scheme to provide The scheme was estimated cost of $70,000 when they came to pay the pensions and did pay them it was greatly exceed­ ed.

$80,000 was the amount paid out.

$80,000 was the amount paid out.

There was the same experience Trinidad, amount paid out considerably the amount estimated.

vpon hon.

Members who may he inclined of to recommend the amount of pension that the posi­ tion may be more serious now than one realizes.

to pay Old Age Pensions a year.


seventy it cost them Recently to they had a Committee work out that extra cost and they found that if they reduced tlie age to sixty-five the amount would be $138,000.

reduction will increase over $50,000.

That is in Barbac.os according to their population.

of five years in the age the amount paid by In Barbados, In other words, a =in increase as I said, at the age of $82,000 is This gained.
difficulties of physical I am very anxious The great thing Bill, as every Bill, provides improvements elsewhere and New Amsterdam.

That in this Bi!!

are It is :;im­ to stress this point.

The Bill aims at the start at It is mainly an endeavour simplicity.
to get the payment of Old Age Pensions started, and the machinery can be improved later irn the light of experience to make a start and get it going, and then we can introduce which have been introduced but which we cannot see our way to do here because -space and lack of transport.

particular for wide open spaces as it does in Georgetown is why the provisions a very simple procedure.

ply to get a start made.

If this works we would improve the method, but it to get a start.
I may is an endeavour say in most Colonies and in Great Britain before Old Agz Pension was introduced Committees and in practically found that the estimates very greatly exceeded tice.

At a later stage I shall q,iote those figures Any :figures I quote may be greatly exceeded a long time now and no one knows how many are over the particular at the moment.

The main condition of the Bill is that the age of sixty-five years be taiken as the qualifying age.
In Barbados Trinidad of Barbados they of the financial thought it would cost, which was calcu­ lated before they brought in the they harl to examine the subject, every case they put up were in actual prac­ we have the exact figures and also later figures.

it is sixty-five.

the age ia seventy we had no census for commitment In the case because and in age age of entitled to pension.
appointed They estimate figures from the report of the to consider the that in George­ a pensionable What are the figures before us'?

1 am quoting Committee scheme.

town, assuming 65 years and over, there are 1,816 persons in the Colony they estimate the number is 6,317.

They are people who, they estimate, pensions.


They are not the actual number of people in the Colony over 65, but people who they expect would come • forward There are a great deal more people in this Colony of that age who either do not wish or do not qualify draw will actually and qualify Elsewhere that for pension.

to draw a pem:ion.
to draw a pem:ion.

Clause 2 defines the "appropriate which is really the which the whole authority'' machinery through Bill is intended that we have already Commissioners system which might be called now both in Georgeto,vn rural areas.

To avoid setting to work.

The idea is the Poor Law who administer and in the up new a pensions In practically all Colonies, 143 Old Age LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Pensions Bill 144 of a the to utilize is finished.
it was decided machinery existing Poor Law machinerv --in Georgetown the Poor Law Com­ missioners, and in the rural areas the Local Boards apointed in respect of Poor Law districts.

Do not assume that it means that Poor Law distribution It will go on exactly as it does now.

Old age pension to Poor Law relief.

who now draw Poor Law relief will cease to do so on the receipt pension, come under Poor Law relief.

and the method of payment.


It must be noted that it in ri.o way depends on the amount of the income.

'l'he fact that a person is in receipt small income does not mean that that amount would be deducted pension.

and c€rtainly any income you have is deducted from the pension.

Here once you are qualified of what your income is.

suggested are $3.60 per mensem in Georgetown in the Colony $2.40 .

per menJem.

Clause 9 sets out the disqualifications, not think anybody would disagree with them for one moment.
to be in addition Of course some people Clause 4 sets out the conditions it is no more R question but other people would then in the United Kingdom, and elsewhere The amounts is intended of old age from his and I do required.

of old i,�e pension or tthe qua1ifications for the receipt what are There are four.

The first is that the person must have attained 65.There will be difficulties connection.

Vast numbers of people are unable to prove their age and for a few years discretion used.
the age of in this will have to be The second qualification is that a person must have been a Britieh subject for 10 years immediately preceding the payment of a pension.

The need for that is quite obvious.

If we do not have some provision that sort we would have all the elderly people over the frontier British birthday.

coming into their 65th Gufana to celebrate of is that they The third qualification must have been res,ident in the Colony for 20 years immediately the claim for a pension.
qualification be in receipt $4.50 per month in Georgetown aild $3.50 in the rural areas.

is that a person must not The fourth of an income exceeding preceding Clause .5 deals with the calcula­ tion of mean;,, while clause 6 sets out the procedure Clause 7 is purely procedure, clause 8 fixes the amount of pension to obtain a pension.

while Clause 111 contaiins ;the usual must not of all made in the case A pension or any charge made on it, .prov1s1ons State pensions.
be assigned and in the case of bankruptcy does not pass to a trustee.

is paid to a certain is not allowed it.

The rest of the Bill is purely procedure.

individual and he A pension it As regards staffing, the Com­ and enquire under the Welfare of Local Government is the missioner person responsible Scheme, and he has po.inted out that the actual labour involved in the first 12 months would be greater than at any other time.

It will be necessary to register the pensionern into every single case.
It may take one year or longer to get the register ill working order.

The staff he requires for the first year or two .

will be be probably than what he would need after the scheme has been in operation for some time.

It is suggested that all persons should l,e appointed temporarily for a period of two years and told that if their services were satisfactory there might be permanent employment after two years.
The staff asked for is one clerical nnd t.,vo lady record clerks for head- of the lowest grade assistant greater to divest himself of Old Age 145 2 JUNE, 1944 Pensions Bill 146 we should endeavour be Elsewhere quarters.

These would always required.

than in George­ town he has asked for 16 temporary assistants, and that he be allowed to pick his own men and pay them such salaries as he thinks they deserve view of their previous record.

month.

to 60 years.


Even if we have to spend another $40,000 to do it.

To my mind I rank old age, perhaps wrongly, education.
this Colony fair treatment that they can look forward age at which they perhaps may be able to take up small cultivatiom; in order to assist themselves families them reasonably in experience and be $100 per should · get reasonably from the taxpayers 1w to a retiring The cost of the scheme works out in a way which would make the total cost of the staff I think the old people in The limit would comfortable.

in front of early and their is estimated was $187,700, expenditua:e a year.
The by the but it is that the actual cost a year.

The cost as follows: is round about $20,000 cost of pensions estimated Committee now estimated would be $260,364 of stationery at approxi­ mately $250, making a total annual recurrent of $280,614.

addition, it will ·be necessary equipment expenditure office.

for a further a total expenditure months of $282,114.

move that the Bill be read a second time.


in starting a new and the Commissioner has asked making office and forms, and various incurred of the first year to provide for the first 12 I now formally sum of $1,500, in respect In As regards staffing we must have point of a large abo\lt in the United Kingdom; a staff.

They do not complain these matter;, they look at it from another view.

We are supporting Alms House.

Would it be necessary to continue that?


I think it costs the Colony 40 cents per head per day to carry on that Bill my thorough we will be a little regards Alms House.

I give the and I hope more generous the amounts of the pensions.

support as Mr. SEAFORD: I would like to ask a question.

I would like the hon.

,;.\ ttorney-General to say where he got the information about of :i:10,000 in five years?

a reduction The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: That is the figure, from Barbados.
the Book but was not successful, Mr. A US TIN: In seconding sir, I feel that in a way Gov­ motion, ernment has b;en a bit lethargic.

Some years ago one of us endeavoured to get a Bill of this nature put on the Statute and it is due to a great extent to the hon.

Member for Western Essequibo (Mr. C. V. Wight) anri Mr. Critch­ low that it has now, I hope, come to fruition, General to say that the amounts to be paid as old age pensions are not as generous as they might be.
After all, living as we do in this Colony below sea level we suffer disadvan­ tages which are not appreciated in other places in the Caribbean area, and people have to seek work here at an earlier do in the Islands.

65 is too high and might be reduced age than they generally I think the age of I understood the Attorney­ Mr. LEE: I heartily welcome this should Bill and I agn.e with the hon.

Nomi­ nated Member that GoYernment consider a reduction of the age to 60 years.
Looking around the country to see who will benefit_ by this Bill one will find that many of them are in poor circumstances, and if the age is reduced to 60 there would not be very many more receiving pension.

is also on the small side.

For the rent of a small room one has to pay at least $0!

per month.

If the improvements are made m:my persons As a person gets older he gets feehler would leave the Alms House.
The amount of the pension suggested this 147 Oid Age LEGISLATiVE COUNCIL Pensions Bili 148 .and Government possibility scale of pensions.

should consider the The PRESIDENT: I thought it of introducing a graded was the Daily Mail.

Mr. JACOB: I am glad that the have supported ha.s was question last two speakers the idea that the amounts of the pension are too small.

I am glad too that the Attorney-General indicated that.

This brought up in this Colony on several occasions.
:for Western Essequibo Wight) was the principal the introduction here, and I believe measure.

I think the hon.

Member of old age pensions I assisted (Mr. C. v. mover for in some Mr. JACOB: Maybe the Daily Mail had it too.

This is what Mr. Hall said:- "This Bill is shamefully with trilling human problem the country with, and the treatment the greatest �s confronted meted out to the old-age disgrace to this nation."
pensioners 1s a One old Member said •'Old people The in England with a of feel they have been betrayed."

Bill was introduced view to improving old age pensioners age from 65 to 60 years :md increasing the pension duced in 1908.

I take my seat hut I more later.


will say something the position by reducing the from 5/-per week intro­ Looking at the report of the in Commit­ of making strong speeches I find that their recommen­ It has been said real Committee the amounts have dations as regards P.ot been accepted.

I do not wish to say very much now, but when the particular clause is reached tee I will have something to say about it.

I have always been accused in this Council and accusing Government of one thing and another.
that I never give Government credit for what it has done, but when I look around and study what is happening in other parts of the world I feel that I was fully justified in speaking past.

I am not going to speak in that to re11eat strain one or two statements made by M.em­ bers of Parliament, George Hall, at one tim� Under-Secre­ tary of State for the Colonies.

an improved plan was intro­ pension duced in the House of Commons in 1940, Mr. George Hall February, made the following today.
I am merely going as I have spoken in the including statement.

When Mr. Mr. CRITCHLOW: I rise to for for over 19 this Bill forward.

the Government on It is what congratulate bringing I have been fighting years.

If I went to Government three times a year I always mentioned an old age pension scheme, and I was very proud when I heard the hon.

Member (Mr. C. V. for Western Essequibo Wight) move a motion for the duction of old age.

pensions Colony.
pensions Colony.

I intended amendments told that I could mention when the Bill came up.

intro­ in this to this Bill but I am to move two my points I was trying to find out how many of the opinion that only in the Cofony people are alive today between the ages of 60 and 65 hut I have not been able to do so.

I am strongly 5 per cent.

of the population would benefit by the Bill if the age was rE:duced support the ,suggestion be reduced to 60 years.

that the age to 60 year.s.


I therefore The PRESIDENT: What art' you quoting from?

I notice in the report of the Mr. JACOB: From the Dai!

"J Herald of February, Your Excellency nized the newspaper.

would have recog­ 1940.

I thought Committee 1940 that the amount of pension be $5 pEr month, but perhaps Barbados that it ·was suggested in should because and Trinidad pay less it is 149 Oid Agt 2 Ju:NE, 194,i Pensions Bill 150 in the Colony.

on this pension.
on this pension.

to pay $3.60 in Georgetown proposed and $2.40 elsewhere There are many poor persons who have no means whatever and will be dependent solely I am appealing to this Council to i11crcase the amount to �5 or some reasonable sum above $3.60.

It may be said that these poor people have somebody to help them, but in many cases they have absolutely contribute to the upkeep of the Alms House and I am sure it works out more to maintain tution.

a person in that insti­ no help.


We have to I suggest that a year after this Govern­ the tntruduc­ scheme would to the old age pension scheme has been in operation ment should consider tion of a compulsory insurance whereby workers and employers contribute scheme.

Young people should be compelled upkeep when they get old.

I know that some firms in the Colony offer better pensions not ·work regularly.

the amounts of the pensions be increased.


to contribute to workers who do I again ask that to their will be 60 during this year nated Member on my right (:.\fr.

Critchlow) and I am quit& sure that any pers'On qualifying would not deserve appearance.

for pension at his age by bis (laughter).

it judging to go of the opinion that if were increased and I am sure there of them who would I am strongly the amounts proposed the effect would be to reduce the number of inmates in the Alms House.
It is with some difficulty that some people are persuaded to the Alms House.

They look upon it as a disgrace, are nu.mbers prefer to remain outside .

if the amounts of the pensions increased.

I notice that the hon.


1\liember for Essequibo River (Mr. Lee) wants the pens.ions to be on an incremental basis, beginning figures He thinks that as a man gets older he should get a little is that as a man gets older he requires less food -and does not take so much to keep himself as when he is younger, so that I do not think that as a person gets older he requires some­ thing more.

more.

My experience by Government.


proposed could be at the Mr. JACKSON: l would like to I have a grouse in connection should get a of the distribution was spoken of in this my myseif than those in the country I had hoped that the amounts on having brought this When the matter of I have always had of I cannot see why to add my quota of congratulations Government Bill forward.
old age pensions Council to be paid to individuals would have been so generous that it might have been advisable for me to relinquish teacher's pension and avail of the old age pension ever I think we ought to be thankful for small mercies.

are small goes without doubt, bub that the scheme is a step in the right direction is also beyond doubt.

I should certainly be agreeable small increase of the amounts if that were possible.
I do not know much about reducing the age limit to 60 years, for in this country people are fairly young at 60.

The hon.

Nomi- with this matter.

it in respect Poor Law relief.

people in Georgetown larger pension districts.

for really country districts towns.

As a matter of fact no one, unless he lives among the poor people in the country the extent of their wants and the difficulties in order to live.
In the City of Georgetown of organizations and of course those who go about the streets to seek assistance can do far better than the poor in the country districts.

there are numbers which help the p1Jor, I believe poor persons to exist in the than those in i.he That the amounts scheme.

How­ districts, knlJ'.


'IS I therefore think the poor they have to end:i.re it is more difficult to a i51 Old Age LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Pensions Bill 152 should for people in throughout but I do appeal for s,milar for the people in the Let there be one people in the country districts receive a little better help.

I do not for one moment ask this Council to reduce the amount Georgetown consideration country districts.

uniform amount of pension the Colony and no hardship created.
it is true, but I think there should be one amount of pension ln the case of persons sion from the Government variation according which the pensioner that the same system be adopted tion to the poor people in the City and country would be It would cost a little for everybody.

entitled to pen­ there is no to the locality in lives.

I am urging districts.

in rela­ more, tain was in travail a mouse, old age pensions flat rate of not less than $5 per month.
and brought should be a forth conditions even below GO years.

I think As a result of clima,tic in this country the working class people become old quickly, and I think the age limit should be reduced the age should be 60 years for men and 55 years for women, but that would be considered a radical amendment and would involve a lot of money.

But if old age pensions half a million dollars not grudge it because benefited persons h; now being given.
If we are giving consideration at all to the working classes age pensions to revise its attitude amount of the pensions tual cost of the scheme.

cost this Government I personally would this countr}· has up to now from those very old to whom belated who will benefit most by old ought consideration This is a step in the right direc­ I make no who will not inclined would have to then this Council this Bill.
I al,;o think there as regards the and the even­ if the poor districts are not as Members who are sympathe­ towards the people in For that reason I think care and widen in the tion and I know there is not a single Member of the Council support are several tically the country districts.

threat but I think the representatives of the rural districts answer some questions people in the country given the same amount of pension those in Georgetown.
We have hel'lrd a lot about Elected Members and that they should be Chairmen and so on, and I hope they will rise to the occasion respective should be taken to enlarge the scope of the guardians country districts estates examine applicants.

question $282,000 problem want to do justice.

there are 8,000 likely $5 each per month it would involve an annual expenditure prepared to vote half in the country districts for old age pension.
when this this Council I should be discharging my duty and invoking blessing is charity the fulness in order to recommend or to the of of democracy.

is merely tinkering of old age pensions if at all we of $•180,000.

I am a million As a Member of That involves A pittance with the of the poor people.

to be done it should be done in I am thinking that applicants Mr. EDUN: A sigh of relief and speak up for their and on the sugar of Committees to one hon.

MembP,r districts.

on myself the of things.


dollars If there and at will would come in any case I be breathed and on the sugar estates Bill becomes law.

While old age ,pensions want to pay tribute of this Council, the service serve:!

British enough to be considered and put aside.


At times we ought to invoke the · blessing consider if we are not to think that the moun- Mr. C. V. Wight, for to those who have Guiana and are now old of God when ""e and in this case, old people, rendered encumbrances As I travel around the sugar every Sunday, estates practically do I see?

Thousands and broken down men who ask me: "Are you not asking Government to assist us with something?"
what of old women The hope 153 Olci Age ·2 JUNE, i944 Pensions Bitl 154 I gave them was that old age pen:.

:;ion was coming, and now we are thinking of giving them 60 cents per week.

I suggest that we wait another year and give them $5 per month.

I received the following morning:- telegram this "Port Mouranl-Albion old age pension posted.

Details resolution Governor.

be $5.

Inform Ramjitsingh."


Committee from all If I asked for resolutions mas1<es, The producing over the country I would get them in the hundreds.

irnving been sucked like oranges, are now to be thrown overboard, given a pittance of 60 cents per week.

That is not playing the game.

Thousand of dollars are spent on pensions and salaTies Jt: is a shame, and in view of the fact that this is a tropical country I think we ought to revise our attitude.

of civil servants.
of civil servants.

and I about old age pension a member of the Poor I could not stand the or whoever was .

think the Committee, respousible for this Bill, did drafting not think of the human side of it.

It is no use talking when we are placing it on the same basis as Poor Law relief.

When I was appointed Law Commission sight of not less than 20 persnns and coming before me every fortnight asking for doles.

I agree with the hon.


Nominated Membei:, of Den Ams tel (Mr. Jackson) that if we the amount of this pension increased we -would bring about a reduction the cost of the upkeep of the Alms House.

Therefore I appeal to the Council not to think so much about money but invoke the blessing poor people on this Council.

of the in they would not have been allowed to come here.

· However, which can be examined.

thnt is a matter I want I want to thank Government.
· of the Man Power because old age pension we have been looking to be grateful is something forward to for the la.st 5 or 7 years.

From the inception it formed one of its planks.

Association It has come at last, but for Heaven's sake do not let us reduce absurdity.

feel that we are miserly masses a pittance.

Government limit and increase pension.

rigidity Let the scheme be positive negative.


the age should reconsider the amount of the in giving the I suggest that There should also be no Do not make the world in dealing it to :i.n and not with applications.

to my efforts.

observa­ to certain Mr. C. V. WIGHT: I had not to speak on the Bill which has the motion and for putting support becanse I feel that intended my support subject tions.

I would like to thank the hon.


the Sixth Nominated Member (Mr. Edun) and those other Members who have so kindly referred If any credit is due to me I think great credit is due to hon.

Members of this supporteLl who unanimously Council my credit I however think greater motion.

is due to Govtrnment for having accepted this Bill before Council.

I say great cred,it is due to hon.


Members for their unanimous this is an instance some benefit Colony by They did not descend to the general self-aggrandizement of Government Elected not representative doing this and that in the interest the people because little better off.

If we adopt that policy in this Council I can see no possible of the democratic constitution only see a reversion Members who are alleged to be of the people and 001. of principle of this Council.
and abuse not only officer,:; but other which has brought of the I can they happen to be a to the inhabitants a unanimous decision.

of the hope of success or extension to the unfortunate will be affected-whether I do not know how the Indian immigrants their immigrant certifieates will be accepted as proof of their age.

I think they ought to be accepted :t is their only proof of their age.
I some cases it will be found that their age vvere put on the high side because, if their right ages were known in India because 155 Old Age LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Pensions Bill 156 section.

and no· to do something he happens to be repre­ of a. particular when the was taken away from us.

in the of the Colony.


When I hear debacle which occurred Constitution There is too much abuse of the indivi­ dual because sentative There is no give-and-take credit given to those who are honestly endeavouring interest threats about election Members being thrown out neck and crop.

of certain Members who do not and only two or three stand a chance, the whole Members who represent Colony and should sit in the 24 seats in the future composition cil, it makes me despair of the Colony.
of the Coun­ of the future and certain to within .

a ..

I have heard and, if necessary, working, month or two after its inauguration · as soon as· we can make amendments side has got going.

the administrative Do not let us start immediately upset the whole scheme threats about election voters in my constituency they do not want me I would resig·n.

The hon.

Nomimlted achieved has been striving even before he started with me.

Member has for which he for over 20 years, time, but if 51 per cent.
of the his aspiration being thrown out at to play cricket tell me that We have heard a lot about the Alms House.

Are we going to continue to have an Alms House even though scheme may reduce this old age pension the number of inmates tion?

Are we not going to strive a system of working more to introduce houses in each County?

Perhaps a s,ystem Alms House.

such may be better than having an in that institu� importance.

We know that I had, heard of certain opposition to the motion which I proposer!
to move, but that did not deter me in any way.

I simply went ahead with it one feature because there is perhaps that hon.

Member,; have not touched as well as upon, and they know I do that it is a matte,: of paramount in this Colony there are several men and perhaps the only bread-winners and it is really in that direction that some relief might take place.

It will for those allow a more hopeful future young persons paltry aged mother, the samie house.
There is a larg-e of persons proportion and it is to those that perhaps the will immediately come.

g-reate,;t relief who start life 0!1 a of $20 or less and have :m father or uncJ.e, al!

in in that position, of their family, ones who are elderly salary young I would like to make one or two made I agree with him th�.t there should be com­ on the suggestions observations by the hon.

Nominnted Member, Mr. Critchlow.


entirely pulsory contribution age pension limit should that the be increased, be reduced amount of pension scheme, that the age­ to 60 years, and fr� gradually.

but what I do say is let us Let us start with the to an old should also itial stage by getting the scheme Mr. WOOLFORD: I thought ·1 legislation age should be 60 years.
and I share the view that might m::tke some useful contribution some to this debate if I gave Membe1·s idea of what is paid in other places near to us.

I was a member of the Committee the qualifying in England was The original in 1908, and the pay­ only introduced ments there are 10/-per week with a means test of 20/-per week.

ThP.re Board which goes is an Assessment claim and makes a into any particular further details we shall have to attend to.
The means (20/-) per test is twenty shillings week in the United Kingdom.

In the it is $5.00 per Island of Trinidad month and- There are some contribution.

that as the scheme progresses Mr. EDUN: $5.50 !

Mr. WOOLFORD: I am only of the time of the report.

speaking am speaking of the information to the Committee aniila:ble ::i.ncl, l l 157 Old Age 2 JUNE, 1944 Pensions Bill 158 8,000 stage is reached about the whole matter, there are large numbers people whose ages are and On what is that based?
We from the Poor I feel that in this in the City of I would Committee like to make one or two other suggestions I do not know in what way it because I rather fancy one can be ascertained.

hon.

Member said it is possibly persons.

have got some figuress Law Commissioners.

Colony, especially Georgetown, of illiterate somewhat difficult who have never been and, therefore, can be no guarantee.
of people, us or may write letters perately are going to be many inequalities many dissatisfied be rejected, the Bill, take the estimate and, if the necessity meet it with a supplementary provis­ ion.

I do say let us get on with as a gauge we all know, may come to who are <les­ to determine in the Alms Ho11se and people who may in need.
Whilst I think there the Alms House figures A large number arises later on, is, we do not I hesitate and whilst I agree that to me, as I to·)k the trouble In the Island of Barbados think, you will find that I am correct in saying it was $5.00 up to two months ago.

That is the information supplied to enquire.

( 4/-) per week.

it is four shillings That is the comparison with tw_o very much richer places with forger popul­ ation.
We are doing extremely well as we a beginner, if we can, make a larger con­ should, tribution to press it at the moment until we see how the Scheme works.

My suggestion know how many people will claim benefits and if it becomes necessary for supplementary be done.

That is a p1:actical suggestion see I make.

Let the Bill go through, examine them the number of cla,ims, and make supplementary payment.

there is no fixed i;, done elsewhere in all those places amount.
Frequently ·where Old Age Pensions operate or at claims are made in mid-year alternate times, and the claims are fixed as often as may be.

I agree that in none of those places, England, between living in one district another, and I am inclined that the pensions should amount whether in Georgetown districts.

the outlying any differentiation to the view be a fixed estimates not even in ·that can is made As or or The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: As one thing I the principle of.
Here no deduction every Member who has spoken has supported of the Bill there is nothing I need say at this stage.

There i,s, however, would like to say.

It is mentioned about the amount paid as pension in Trinidad.

I got The last information is that the amount is $G.OO, but from that you deduct any income one may be in receipt is made.

I do not think there is any big margin of diffe,·ence between the pensions proposed in this Colony and those in fact paid in Trinidad.
Remarks were made as to why there should be a difference pension Georgetown.

for hon.

Members of this Council \vho }<now cond�tions far better than I do.

The cost of living in Georgetown is high, but I Georgetown know it is higher outside matter for also.

It is a peculiar lVIembers of Council to work out the figures si1ch as they are, as ;:my That is entirely and that outside in Georgetown in this Coiony a matter between the age-limit, Poor Law Relief.
the pension There is one feature that has not which faces the In calculating been emphasized Committee.

the means test should be applied hut it does not include the person who is over 65, or 70, or whatever and is also receiving Hon.

Members know there are women rece1vmg Poor Law Relief who ate over sixty years and who will still be for this pension because the eligible amount they Commissioners, will not make them ineligible pension.
There again we must allow a period to lapse in order to see how many people claim and how the ion can l:>e made, When the allocat 1/6 or 2/ per week, for this get from the Poor Law 159 Old Age LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Pensio·ns Bill 160 reached by my predecessor of the war.

That is I am in.
That is I am in.

Without taking States and got a change made in the decision with the concurrence of the Secretary of States that the matter be postponed for the duration the position our going for­ upon myself to sanction ward with the Bill in spite of sub­ stantial to the original esti­ mJlte, I do not feel myself go further.

I advise hon.

Members to take the Rill as it stands.

all I can do to assist you to · bring the Bill quicker strongly the scheme as early as possible.

into operation.
into operation.

the favour of going on with addition That is J advise free to the is available (Mr. \Voolford> can be made, but we remember that Social we can then As soon as As the hon.

Member for and change of any sort may have very great consequences.

New Amsterdam the ,hon.

Nominated Member �Mr.

Edun) have said, get a start made as soon as we can and, as we obtain information, reliable amend this as is possible:.
the information alteration must also Welfare workers are always inclined and enthusi�stic to take the bit between the teeth and go a little too fast.

This is calculatecl thqse members, if they can, and keep within limit.

I am not the operation of the 'speaking an increase amount; that is left entirely to the What I do say is, do not let Council.

away with amend­ enthusiasm ments.

A few months later we shall see whether in relation points as to age.
the amount and the in amounts to be paid in difference Georgetown and elsewhere, be taken when the Bill is in the Com .. mittee stage.

an amendment to this Bill.

The other to re;;train carry us against can each is justified Committee The PRESII>ENT: of the Bill, which esti­ with it.

I will be to commit it again to has said and say that any sub­ amendment Before I put the motion I would just like to add one word to what the hon.
the Attorney­ General stantial may mean a substantially greater mate than the one we have ,eached at now, will prevent me from going forward straightway compelled another tion and proper changes I may also have to take it up with the Secretary of States for the Colo­ nies and again secure his concurrence to go forward.

a great deal was with the moton of the hon.

Mem­ I accepted ber for Western Essequibo (Mr. C. V. Wight) two years ago.

The figure was then $180,000.


1 went forward with it and on that basis I qddressed It was on that ba�is of diffidence the Secretary I may explain investig-a­ to be made.

for closer that it of There i,s one other thing, the made about the Alms Houa;e. of Local reference I had asked the Commissioner to be present at s0me Government stag-e of this debate to exolain the proposals of Governme-nt with regard to that.
In general it to make the Alms is intended House what it should be, an In­ firmary sick, and to take certain as regards and will still live in their given relief homes or some other kind of prefer­ able institution.

I have asked Mr. Laing to attend and I expect to have him here during the Committee put the of the Bill.

I shall therefore question.

aged, the old othe1· the poor people who will be for the completely stage steps Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the second time.


put up to me as to a clause The PRESIDENT: We have still the other Bill and I had the proposal which may meet hon.

Members.

T do not think we can go fMward with it with this very sparse Council we have.

Officers J am sure Government would like to give it a little careful study is before voting on it.
If the Council we may go on to the agreeable Committee st.age, unless there is any other item on the Order of the Day it is desirable 11QW, to get forward with 161 Ebini Experiment2 .JUNE, 1944 Station 162 Mr. JACOB: You are going to adjourn at 4 o'clock!

The PRESIDENT: Yes.

Mr. JACOB: I do not think we can do very much now.

EBINI EXPERIMENT STATION.


him he is satisfied that had reached the work has been of v�ry great value indeed and, as Your Excellency tioned in your Message, after the completion proceed Welfare grant.

With these few words I beg to move-- of the scheme to Development and and larger by asking the people for a further men­ it is intended of the establishment The COLONIAL TREASURER: to offf;et provided approved in regard to the I need to and can add to of the soil and of the interior.

Message No.

24.

Hon.


Members resolution of the original of making trials deficiency There is little what has been stated in Your Excel­ lency's will recall that in August, 1940, this Council of this Ebini Station experiment the mineral grass in the savannahs That previous an extension tion of $30,000 and, as stated in the Message, was experienced difficulty owing to the shortage those responsible undertook by using mineral raise certain bonemeal.
the scheme was $6,000 and Government in view of the urgency of the matter , authorized in order to fertilizers crops to take the place of for appropria­ some last year this expenditure spread over five years for this scheme to make good that deficiency as a clrnrge 'l'he cost of the extension of of bonemeal, and That.

with reference t.o Governn:'s of an additional Message No.
1 of the 27th April, 1944, the grant of Council approves Trust Fund to $6,000 from the Development rover the cost of carrying out pasturage l"xtension death rate among the Experiment to prevent a high on the Ebini work necessary livestock Station.

Mr. SEAFORD seconded.

this scheme.


I think when and the cattle industry Mr. J ACOR: I would like it to remain on record that I have always supported the scheme was put up here-unfortun­ ately I cannot find th� Message now -I had the idea that it was very conservative woud benefit.

What beats me is that all these schemes for improvement put so far away that one can hardly who is generally get the public to go there and see ed in these matters what is going on.
I do not know if Your Excellency paid station River District when you went to the Berbiee a visit to this recently.

are interest­ against the free grant already made from the Development It is accordingly the total of the grant so that the experiment originally Trust Fund.

to make up will be carried out as contemplated necessary in 1945.

Trust Fund has considered The Advisory Committee of the of the grant and also of State.
Formal of Members of this Council of this Trust Development it :rnd approved the Secretary i� approval for the extension now necessary grant from the Development Fund.

There is just one point I would like to mention.

I have seen to the in the file a letter addressed Director field, which hon.

Members may be in because interested there said that from such reports as of Agriculture by Mr. Wah­ Mr. Wakefield The PRESIDENT: Yes, 1 have.
Mr. JACOB: Therefore Your otherwise was impressed to be benefited, that these experiments Excellency this motion would not have been put forward.

I would like to state, should however, be viewed by the people and in fixing the ;;ite transportation ought to be considered.

facilities not think this matter was given very in the fin1t careful consideration instance, some kind of a success success expense.
started Essequibo River-I think it is 2,000 miles away; If a scheme like that is nearer the coastlands on the River or even the Berbice and I have no doubt it will be will be achieved later on but that at very great I do I have not got the measurement,-- 163 Ebini Ex.

StationLEGISLATIVE COUNCIL 1944 Sup.

Estimates 161 The COLONIAL TREASURER: •The area of the savannah is 2,000 square miles.

Mr. JACOB: I think it is ·100 fr om New Amsterdam.


rriiles have such an area hundreds from New Amsterdam- H .vou of miles The COLONIAL TREASURER: I must ask the hon.

Member not to It is only 75 make such a statement.

Amstet·dam.

miles from New Mr. JACOB: I have got the I on total for this otherwise from New Amster­ figures-75 miles is carried dam and the experiment in an area of 2,000 square miles.

I think the inhabited coastlands 4,000 square miles.
J think that figure was given in Your Excellency's speech.

I was not prepared motion this afternoon would have got out my data.

I do urge on this Government I do not know how many cattle you ha,ve there.

I do not know what is going on there, to spend money on 2,00t) of land.

That is how it looks to me.


the You have got Mara, Friends, Essequibo �rara, Demerara experiments people .in the surrounding b�nefit River where you can start like that so that the areas can Coast, the East Coast Dem­ the East and West Banks of the but you· He continuing to be practical.

square miles by them.

the pasture and the overcrewded land,; on the CORP.ta!
not The reason why this coulrl menting on to see if the rest of the 2,000 square miles of the immediate savannah lands can be taken up, because belt are already people have no where to put their cattle.

out there is that conditions be carried are entirely belt on the coastal different and the idea is to see if the 2,000 acres lands up there can be of sav�nnah It is for pasturage.

made available no good carrying out the experiment on the coastland type of soil and grass and there is no we can get :.
better and certainty pasture for cattle thi>1·e.

extended agreed to give this The Committee for those grant for this experiment an experiment.

reasons.

on quite a different It is entirely The PRESIDENT: I have seen like and tht"!

and nothing is to see if we can obtain the place myself.

It is a kind of inland savannah exists that near the Coast.

It is a different kind of soil and pasture, experiment with such an area that improvement desired.

to bring it down near the Coast.


It is just as neat· as we can get H. possibly If it is successful, then it means a considerable area of inl::md savannah to us.

can be made profitable It is quite impossible Question put, and agreed to.

Motion carried.

.The PRESIDENT: Unfortunately FIRST QUARTERLY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1944. that special exist in those places.

kind of savannah does not The COLO-r-.TIAL TREASURER: I Mr. J,ACOB: I merely rose to say the principle of this out but.
it is being carried that it is 1 am not against experiment so far from.

the coastlands of very .Ji.ttle value to the community.

move- That, this Council approves the Sdiedule Provision for the quarter, to :\1st March, 1944, required in excess of Additional January of the provi­ meet an expenditure sion made in the Estimates for the year 1944, which has been laid on the table.

1st to Mr. SEAFORD: !.\fay I attempt the position?

to ·explain that Government the hon.

Member said, is 2,000 square miles.


That is not the case.

It is a very small area Government If hon.

Members have copies in front of them they would see all the items, except two to ·,:vhich in detail by the refer, were examined Finance on the .25th Fehru­ ary, 1944.

The only two items, which is experimenting Committee is experi- The area on, I shall 16!5 1944 Suv.
Estimates 2 JUNE, 1944 Bishovs' High School 16'> apart from those in on ·that day, are have been inserted, the Schedule examined the two having reference of the Council - ;'Subsidisation, $1,000,000", approved to resolutions by Resolution item, and the hon.

the Colonial $11000,000 Treasurer will remember that l expressed very strong views1 as to why cedain things were not done.

I think it has got to the time fo1· the adjournment and we should not rush these things like this.

.

'No.
.

'No.

XL on the 14th March, 19-14, and on this Schedule; and of Bishops' High $20,000" under the Colonial and Welfare Sch.e.mes, now included "Reconstruction School, Development which is covered by Resolution IX passed on the 30th December, l�i-12.

Unless any Member has any particular point to raise on the estimates there will be no need to go into Committee.

The Schedule itself and, except for the item of $1,000,000, is ·not of a very large total.
Therefore I move that the motion be passed unless any Member wishes , the Schedule considered in Committee.

is extremely short The PRESIDENT: We are not rushing it.

I am quite prepared to listen to you.

lVIr.

JACOB: What I say will have Hig·h School eff.ect, but it is well t]1at are considered.

As I do when the new building will whether in the next but there is only for 200 children.
very little these mattel's regard::1 the Bishops' not lrnc,w be c•,rn,hucted, few years or earlier, limited Public feeling ·when ll.dditional provided accommodation accommodation is running as high ns at Queen's College.

was not The COLO NI AL SECRETARY: seconded.

The PRESIDENT: I sent a tele­ yesterday to the Comptroller teJl.­ to start allowed and the accomodation p-r:>m ing hi.m that I am prepared t.omor'tow for UJ1der the revised is the present position.

the r,lan on which we will start buiid­ i.r.g.


plan is 250.

1'hat That will be I am not against Mr. JACOB: I would like to say something on this $1,000,000 vote for Subsidisation.

Suh� sidisation, but I do not think the expenditure is wise.

I would like to make my comment and let it remain on 1·ecord.

I am going to ask that we go into Committee not lose their privilege.

remember what happened meeting when an additional was considered dent was i,n the Chair.
I am asking that the Council go into Committee as to discuss so that Members will I can well at the last so these items.

and the Deputy Presi­ provision THE PRESIDENT: Your sug­ gestion is not sec,onded.

·it is the wish of the Council the Schedule however, speaking to take as it stands.

I do 11.ot, stop the hon.

Membe1· from in any way he wishes.

Mr. JACOB: I had my notes on Subsidisatior.

here.


I do not know if they are the same as when we arrived here one evening and I raised certain questions about implements and tools.

I think that is included in this This going into those and the Bishops' for Queen's High school, Mr. J A.COB: I do not think it is fair to limit the accommodation.

limitation has gone on for a consider­ able number of years.
Jt is amazing the public spit'it of the men put on these Boards of Governors College that they should limit the accommoda­ tion for children schools.

edge.

There are literally girls who would like to get accommoda­ tion at Bishops' occasion mistress me the favour of admitting daughters That is my own personal are hundreds of pupils who should go into that school but Government has put down the limit at 200.

High School.
High School.

I had to soeak to the acting Head­ who ·told me that she would do one of my but not the other at nll.

case.

There hundreds of Apparently I speak from personal knowl­ 167 1944 Sup.

EstimatesLEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Old Age Pension, -�Gl and I think I um correct in accmn­ up to· 500 and the plans are .
The _ COLONIAL SECRET ARY: I have not got the Your Excellency, papers before me ·but I have seen them recently, saying that the site can provide modatio� made in such a way that there can be as desired and as money is expansion other words, when provided it 1s said that Government the accommodation answer to that is the plan is so devised that the school can be extended as desired take a school to accommodate 500.

I am speaking actual figures from .

memory and the given may be wrong.


for it: In at the school my and the site is big enough to is limiting Mr. JACOB: When I discussed the matter ,with the acting Head­ mistress 1'he gave me the impression of the school a few weeks ago, that the of 300.

·plan was for an accommodation 'J'he hon.

Member foy Georgetown North (Mr. Seaford) knows that.

The COLONIAL SECRET A RY: The plan: can be extended is desired.

when and as Question put, and agreed to.

Motion carried.

CONTRIBUTORY OLD AGE PENSION SCHEME.


The PRESIDENT: The present amount caters for 250, an.d it can be extended if you vote moi·e money.

Mr. JACOB : I do not think this we have that the High School, education.

educational institutions when I complain vote the amount.

I would like to see this Council but Your Excel­ to take that the children for It is a step in is not going to to have the confidence of the Council would grudge voting m<Yre money.
I have no doubt that if Gov­ this Coun­ ernment put up an estimate cil would refuse certainly to vote the money for the extension of Bishops' lency will not be prepared risk and put it to the test.

Therefore, I think this Government continue members of the public.

I responsible am told that I am not a respom;ible individual two principal cannot accommodate secondary the wrong direction.
Although heard all these wonderful of the great hopes that should be built on the Higher education coming out to these Colo,nies, we actually education it everywhere.

rnodation and not 250.


If you have accommoda­ College tion at Queen's and the Queen's College Association suggests dation there should be 600, I do not ;;ee why the accommodation High School should not be 500 or 600. as boys I think there are as many girls, who require you make allowance the accommodation is to be for 600 then there should be at Bi,shops' High School accommodation for at least 500. but for less girls.
If at Queen's College Old Boys' that the accommo­ within this Colony-limiting should be increased doing to have higher I urge that the acc01n­ Commission�rs promises and education, at Bishops' secondary for 350 or 300 to · 300 what are Mr. CRITCHLO-W: I desire to ask that consideration for a Compulsory Contributio111s Age Pension Scheme be deferred.

of my motion Old At this stage the Council adjourned 1944, at 12 noon.

to Wednesday, 14th June,