Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698069493079.pdf (Guyana)
2675 26,16 · COUN.GIL iEGiSlATIVE The Hon.

It .B.

Gajraj The Hon.

R. C. Tello (Constituted (ConstitutJion) Gitiana (TernpOl'Wl'Y unde1· the British Provisions) Nominated Official: !\'Ir.

J. I. RamphaJ Orde1· in Council, 1953.}

FRIDAY, 21ST JUNE, 1957.


Nominated Unioff,icials: Mr. W. A. Phang Mr. C. A. Carter Mr. E. F. Correia The Council met at 2 p.m. Mr. H. Rahaman PRESENT Miss Gertie H. Collins Mrs. Esther E. Dey Dr. H. A. Fraser His Horcoiw the Svealcer: Mr. n. B. Jailal Sir Eustace Gordon Woolford, O.B.E., Q.C.

Ex-Officio Members: Mr. Sugrim Singh Mr. w. T. Lord.

I. S. 0.

The Hon.

the Chief Secretary, Mr. M. S. Porcher (Ag.)

Clerk of the Legislature: Mr.

I. Crum Ewing The Hon.

the Atto!·ney Genera!, 1\fr.


A. M. I. Austin.

Assistant Clerk of v/ie Legislatw"e; Mr. E. V. Viapree The Hon.

the Financial Sec'l:etary, Absent: Mr. F. W. Esse..'C.

Nominatecl E:cecntiv Nlembers of e Council: .

The Hon.

Sir Frank McDavid, C.M.G., turc, Forests, C.B.E.

(Member for Agricul· Lands and Mines).

The Hon.

G. A. C. Farnum, O.B.E.

Social for Local Government, (Memb'er Welfare and Co-operative Develop­ ment).

-on leave.

Mr. T. Lee-on leave.

(Mem­ The Hon.


P. A. Cummings, Health and Housing).

ber for Labour, l\lr.

L. A. Lucld100.

Q.C -on le·,we Rev.

D. C .

.J.

Bobb.--on leave The Hon.

W. 0.

R. Kendall (Mem­ ber for Communications and Works).

The Speaker read prayers.

2677 Minutes 21ST JUNE, 1957 Bills 2678 The Minutes of the meeting of th!!

20th June, Council held on Thursday, 1957, as printed and circulated, taken as read and confirmed.
were A�NOUNCEMENTS LEA VE TO MEM'BERS Mr. Speal,er: Mr. Luckhoo is unable to be present today.

He has two motions on the Order Paper.

I propose to have until next week.

The Rev.

them d.efened Mr. Bobb has a.sked to be excused.

still not feeling well.

Mr. Farnum has asked to oe excused meeting.

from today's He is 7.Post and Telegraph (Amend­ ment) Bill, 1957.

8.Local Government (Hopetown and Rel Air Country Districts) Bill, 1957.

(Special Provisions) ().


Animals (Control ments) Bill, 1957, of Experi- and a resolution benefits annuation Hou.se staff.

re,garding super­ of the Government PAPERS LAID The Attorney General (Mr. Austin) : Sir, I beg to lay on the table: by the and report to consider of the introduction Report of the Land Regis­ appointed Preliminary tration Committee Council Executive on the desirability a modern Land Registration British Guiana system should take, dated 30th day of April, 1957, No.
11/1957 together thereon.

of 'Sy.

!.tem in and the form which such with Sessional Paper ORDER OF THE DAY The Attorney .

to move that this Council ceed forthwith of the following Bills:- General: Sir, I beg agr,ees to pro­ with the second reading 1.D'Abreu Pension Bill, 1957.

2.Dias Pension Bill, 1957.

3.Volunteer Bill, (Amendment) 1957.

4.Deeds Registry (Amendment) Bill, 1957.

5.Developme nt Fund (1955 and Bill, H>57.

1956 Appropriation) .6.

Excise Regulations Bill, 1957.


_lllent) (Amend- The Chief Secretary (Mr. Porcher, a�ting): I beg to second the motion.

Yfr.

Ramphal: Sir, I would hesitate of guidance but I one minute, I would not wish to do any­ and to detain the Council l'Ose because thing now that would be a precedent therefore I am thinking mor,e than an�·thing shall I say, an omnibus one, of s everal matters Chair's anticipate the several been enumerated.
point that I have 1·isen items that have It is purely on that to come, and I am asking the guidance as to whether we can for assistance.

els.e.

This motion is, Personally I think that it mi,ght better to deal with them as hav.e been we get to them.

Look at the word .. forthwith "-we may not finish the there may motions be much time elapsing before we arrive at some.

There may be other mge.

)1t matters that come between them in course of time.

today.
today.

In adilition, Mr. Speaker: I regret that I cannot Member's request to the hon.

ex­ to say it is al­ con-ect to give notice of so concede much as I would like to do so.

I have my own views to a certain expressed tent.

I am not prepared tog·ether but there is very little many motions them on the difference Order Paper and asking that the resolution be passed.

them separately, mass.


Instead they are moved in putting between of moving �679 D'Abreu 21ST JUNE, 1957 Pension Bill 2680 Mr. Ramphal: I was only asking for guidance on procedure.

I ap­ preciate everything about the urgency of the matter.

.Mr.

Speaker: Does anyone wish this motion?

to speak on Question Bill read a second time.

put, and agreed to.

Mr. Speaker: In the circumstances is practically asking the Government the Council to do it.

There is no ob­ .
There is no ob­ .

I think the present moment .iection could be called a .necessity-I not prepared to say it is.

am not COUNCIL 1N ,COMMITTEE Council resolved into Com­ itself mittee and pai,sed the Bill as printed.

Mr. Ramphal: I would agree, Sir, Council resumed.

that it is an urgent necessity.

The Chief Secretary: I beg to the Government Mr. Speaker: 1f thinks it would eliminate of anythi11g like I could have it this way.

I would the motion moved by the hon.


the Attorney being deferred, I think General approved.

the danger move that the Bill and passed.

be read a third time Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a third time and passed.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion afffrmed.


D' ABRI-;U PimstoN BILL DIAS PENSION BILL The Chief Secretary: I risa move the second reading of the Bill which stands as item 3 on the Order of the Day, and fotituled: to I rise to 'l'he Chief Secretary: move the second reading of the Bill which stands as.

item 2 on the Order Papel'.

legislation think, and Reasons.

This is a very E hort piece of the object of whieh.
I is fully explained in the Objects ·' An Ordinance vision Gratuity to make special pro­ in regard to the Pension and to Vivian Charles payable Dias", type of is a similar 'l'his spect of Mr. Vivian Charles Dias, Crown Solicitor, who is retiring November of this year.

Bill, in re­ in Mrs. Pauline Very briefly, Trade School from 1937 up D'Abreu served as Senior Instructress of the Carnegie to 19·46.

She then retired after attain­ i11g the age of 60 years and received small gratuity.
The post was pensiona!rle and she was subsequently re-employed for a further so, and the Government should be allowed in respect service muc:h hope that Members will support this Bill which I now move.

10 years or feels that she to draw a pension of that long and faithful which she has given.

I very a made Mr. Dias was appointed as Crown duties ·holder in 1[)42 but he was app0inted becau.se the sub­ Mr. of the offiee, Solicitor in an acting capacity stantive King, was seconded to special out of the war.
Mr. _King con­ arising tinued to serve in those special on secondment did not become vacant until then.

Therefore pointed so out of a total of 15 years service, only 10 years counted for pension, but iu fact he has served in the post con­ tinuously for 15 years .

Mr. Dias could not b;i ap­ to it until 194 7, substantively until 1947 and the post duties The Attorney .

second the motion.

General; I beg to 2681 D(as Pension Bill 21ST JUNE, 1957- Voluntee1· (Amdt.)
Bili 2682 LThe Chief Secretary] service Government feels in view of his efficient and the and faithful fact that through no f ault of his own h& could not be appointed on should be earlier, passed to enable the whole of his service now move the second reading Bill.

legislati special to be counted for pension.

to the post o f this I The Attorney second the motion.

General: I beg to Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.


COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE i nto Com­ resolved itself mittee and passed the Bill as printed.

Council Council resumed.

'fhe Chief Secretary: I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time and passe,d.

The Attorney second the motion.

General: I beg to Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time and passed.


fo1•ce; but Bill, which gave with the Police d in one .of the daily during fois week' in con­ that that Bill was at­ to create a militai·y that this Bill now before 11s line which appe•are newspapers nection the impr,:ssion tempting I think prorng conclusive wa:s wnmg, be-cause E'ili i:; to transfer responsibility from the Commission fa at present Commandant Commanding Offieer Force.

So the Commissioner will no longer in future have to deal with military ranks.
ly that that headline foe .object of this the command and of the Volunteer er of Police who e for it ;s the to the responsibl of Local Forces, of the Volunteer of Police For·ce prov1s1ons The Bill also contains for two oaths which members of the Volunteer Force should take.

One renclern them liable for service the Colony alone and the other renders them liable to serve Her Majesty the Queen whereYer so.

It is entirely ber of foe Force which oath he takes.
they are called to do optional to each mem­ within The rest of the clauses are largely I now beg to rnoye the consequential .of the Bill amendments.

second reading.

VOLUNTEER (AMENDMENT) BILL The Attorney the motion.
set:ond General: I beg to Tl1e Chief Secretary : I rise to of the Bill as item 4 on the Order moYe the second reading whici1 stands of the Day and intit uled: "An Ordinance to amend the Volunteer Ordinance", be t aken in con­ with the Bill which deals with This Bill should really junction the Police Ordinance, reading of which I proposed week.

the siicond for next Question Bill re•ad a second time.

put, and agreed to.

COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE Council resolved itself into Com­ the Bill as printed.
mittee and pc1ssecl Council rest.med.

The Chief Secretary: I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time and passed- Hon.

Members, and very likely some members of the public, been S9Il'\ewh11t rnust i1ave oyer a head• concerned The Attorney Genel'al I beg to : second the motion.

2683 Deeds Registry 21ST JUNE, 1957 (Amendme,nt) Bill 2684 put, and agreed to.

Question Bill read a third time and passed.


DEEDS REGISTRY (AMENDMENT) BILL 'fhe Attorney General : I beg to moye the second reading intituled: of the Bill "An Ordinance fmther to amend the Deeds Registry Ordinance".
a complete review of the of land tenure and the practice the work of the Committee firm conclusions the working Tne Committee including comparatively minor wer,e made to the Dee<ls I say, included syste111 of con reyancing the Deeds Registry, did come to certain on minor points regarding of the De.1eds Registry.

feit that if certain amendments Registry com·eyancing up and make it altogether cient.

In anticipation acceptance as to a change in the existing-laws and pracb�e.
the Committee draft Bill on whic-h the present Bill is based.

it would assist the work and would speed it Ordinance of Government's of the Tecommendations submitted more effi­ a T11e Land Registration Committee whether thefr views points dealing e of its work cii-cu­ ascertaining with the ex­ and mortgages, .
:_ three times - before in the performanc lariz.ed the public and particularly members of the mercantile and banking organisations, on certain isting system and in particular they thought the number of adyertise­ ments of transports now required passing should be reduced to one, and secondly time for to transports and entering which is now fourteen mortgages, might not with slightly under that term of time in order that the clerks could do thefr ·work of recording have it ready with the the Transport opportunity.
whether or not the opposition convenience be red;.iced Court at the earliest the opposition and transport dayiS for before a question was whether or of mortgages could Anotiier not canrelment with ad-rnntage be executed Notary Public and not before the Regis� trar himself.

reiceived the Committee in general accepted those points, ments of transports should be reduced from three to one, that the time for ente,ring reduced.
be slightly si10uld that the advertise­ and mortgages The replie,; namely, At the by opposition with connected as a Sessionnl was laid on the· table This Bill is specially the Report of the Land Registration Committee, whic11 earlier in this sitting Paper, and it is unfortunate haye not had the opportunit the report.

It is a yety interesting document and deals with a yery import­ think it might help if I ant ,mbject.

I briefly give the background Deeds Registry (Amendment) Bill.
y to read Members to this Hon.

Members will recall that a General, a modern should be - a very strong Committee in May Hl56 to ex­ Committee - was appointed amine the question w;j1ether system of land registration "in British Guiana.

The introduced Committee was to be presided over by the Attorney Mr. Wylie, at the Commissioner the time.

It included of Lands and Mines, the Registr,ar of Deeds, and a number of competent legal practitioners.

Guiana �-hortl of the Committee.


Freitas assumed the C;i,airmanship and has been heading the Committee hi its work until he went on 1eave a short time ago.

Mr. Wylie left British y after the appointment Mr. J. Edward de The work of the Committee is a ta£k - to examine vei-y stupendous the system of land tenure in this coun­ try and to recommend whether or not a new system should be adopted, to l'eYise system or let it the present run side by side with a supplementary one.
Undertaking their work whirh, as either 2685 Deeds Registry 21ST JUNE, 1957 ( Amendment) Bill 2686 and the recommendation Gene1·al] of a transport [The Attorney moment opposition has to be entered by noon on the third Saturday follow­ ing the first publication or mortgage, now is that the time for opposition at 3.30 o'clock on the after­ should end thereby the noon of the day before, opposition time would from 14 <lays to more than 13 days.
Also it was generally of mortgages before a Notary Public or the Regis­ trar.

accepted should either be effected foat c-ancebnent be reduced that the system would be even if the cancel­ is executed before The "court" means tile Transport Court or the Registrar ,md includes The cancella­ the Deputy Registrar.

is a rehtively tion of mortgages unim­ portant procedure and the Committee recommended adequately se•rved ment of mortgages "Notary Public.
This would cularly when .ordinarily puty Registrar for tilat purpose.

There Public in New Amsterdam, who pays off the mortgage property in3tead the visit of the Registrar n to Registrar or coming to Georgetow hm·e the cancelment executed, it done at any time in-Berbice.
is a Notary and anyone on his or De­ the Registrar has to go once a month in New Amsterdam of haying to wait on appreciated or Deputy be parti­ can have particular­ Except for the reduction in the s of trans­ of the !and number of advertisement ports and mortgages from three to one, this Bill seeks to implement ly the recommendation Registr,ation Government mendations read in paragraph and it is felt Yery able report, mittee's that it is in the interest of the com­ munity that these amendments be -made early.
Committee on these points.

has considered the recom­ whici1 hon.

Members will 46 oJ this Com­ should The reduction in the number of would occasion amend­ a<lv.ertisements ing the Rules under ti1e Deeds Registry Ordinance, but we are not concerned with that in connection with this Bill.

'rhe amended Rule has been made and in due cour�e will be laid on the table of this Couneil.

section dinance.
Clause 2 of the Bill seeks to amend 16 of the Deeds Registry Or­ or be allowed That section reads: shall of any mortgage or be in any to be pleaded in the Colony, "No cancellation be of any force or effect way pleadable in any court of justice unless it is passed and executed the Court and filed as of record in the y, but the provisions registr of this sec­ duly tion shall not affect any cancellation executed with and passed in accordance the requirements of the law in force when it is passed."
before There is a new subdause to be is satisfied provides in order of a a deed of cancellation his mortgage debt having or is absent from the Colony, 01· cannot be secure<l added to section 16 whic·i1 that where any mortgagee has any dis­ ability his presenc.e to execute mortgage, been paid, if the Registrar that the d£:bt has been paid, he may in of the mortgagee the absence cancel the mortgage.
There are times when the by a mort­ debt which has been secured gage has been repaid but the mortgagee is not availnble to execute the cancella­ tion of the mortgage and the property re:-mains venient he should other loan on a mortgage, not l.Je done so easily if there still exists the paid off mortgage want to sell or to raise an­ which can­ encumbered, to the owner which is incon­ of the property on the register.
if debt ha;; been should die ion of the Though the mortgage mortgagee paid and the testate before foe cancellat mortgage, some difficulty tive to come along and execute the cancelment it is not possible of the mortgage.

without in­ Similarly for some repi·esenta­ 21387 Devetoprnent Fund 21ST ,JUNE.

1957 1955 & 195(] ( App1·0.)

Bill 2688 has not beeJ1 effected to a com­ e is granted where a mortga.g.

pany and.
pany and.

the company is wound up and cancellation there is some difficulty in removing the mortgage register.

This provision Registrar free from the debt and .execute the �ancelment gage.

from the will enable the is of the mort­ which has been paid at the moment to say that the IJl'operty in this way.

Those are the reasons behind this Bill and I move that the Bill be now read a second time.

The Financial I beg to Secretary: ge'..'oncl the motion.

Question put, Bill read a second time.

and agreed to.
and agreed to.

COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE.

resolved itself into Com­ mittee and passed the Bill as printed.

resumed.

General: I beg to mo,·e foat the Bill be n ow read a third time and passed.

Council Clause 3 of the Bill seeks to give that the that oppos­ be entered by 12 noon on the What happens, is, if op­ Council The Attorney be from 14 days to just over 13 jg or mortgage on the Satur­ on system is 14 days, and effect to the recommendation time for entering opposition should 1·educed clays.
When a transport published in the Gazette day, the time for entering oppositi under the present the Rules of Court provide ition must third Saturday.

position is entered get to work to enter and file that oppos­ ition and have the transport gag.e ready for the Transport the following reduction opposition, time to get through his work sin:e the volume has increased I understand used to be 15 now the numher is between Monday.
By the slight of the time for entering it will enable the Raegistrar very considerably.

that before the War there or mort­ Court on the Registrar 100 and 200. has to DEVBLOPMENT FUND (1955 AND 1956 APPROPRIATION) The Financial BILL, 1957 (Mr. Secretary Essex) : I beg to move the second read­ ing of a Bill intitule-d: to make provision for "An Ordinance the appropriatio Fund oi certain sums of monev trans­ ferred thereto from the revenues and !.unds of the Colony''.

n to the Development put and agreed to.


Question Bill read a third time and passed.

The Financial Secretary: 1 beg to gecond the motion.

the Registrar This provision if between the limit 0f the opposition giv.es time to do his work Consequently, there is .space time for entering time for the Transport Court, it does give the parties a n opportunity difficulties that the transport or .conveyancing can C0urt take effect and the Trane.port can pass the conveyancing any with011t Monday.
delay on the following and to remove the clovd so to settle and the Fund Ordinance the position expenditure This is a Yery formal Bill.

It is intended to regularise really to development relating resources.

The from the Colony's own DeYelopment 1954 pro­ ddes that the Fund shall include such sums inter alia appropriated by Jaw to of the the Fund from the reivenues Colony.
In 1955 we tran,gferred the from general reve11ue into $2,644.579 Fund to cover expen­ the De,·elc,pment diture on development projects shown in the Estimates as being-financed from Colony reve'nue.

Legislatli\'e $4,881,705 be provided eral Revenue Balance, from the Gen­ tile reserves, to Council agreed that Similarly in 1956 This provision in the is actually Rules of Court, whkh ar.e made by the Judges and of the Council.
approved have to be laid on the table The Chief Justice has of the Rule of the amendment 2689 E:rcise Regulations 21ST JUNE, 1957 (Amdt.)

Bill 2690 in t_p.e Estimates.

Secretary] [The Financial cover part of the expenditure Development to give Legislative appropriatio from the Revenue Balance to cover the amounts that were actually spent on approved 1956. sanction n of these two amounts laws we have on the sub­ ur­ the Yarious jert.
But there is now a special gency that in the excise laws there for super­ 1:hould be power to provide of t:ne manufacture.

dsion and control I am informed will be producing quantities This Bill is for the that the local factory beer in commercial in a matter of weeks.

projects on the Fund in 1955/ The Attorney General: I beg to It is very important therefore that second the motion.

Que-stion put, and agreed to.

Bili read a second time we should have F-<lJne making regulations larly the excise aspects.
as soon as possible.

to control legal means of particu­ COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE Council r.esolved itself into Com­ mittee and passe'Cl the Bill as printed.

Council resumed.

Mr. Speaker: Bill was published Gazette in the form of a preamble.

I noticed that the in the Official The Financial Secretary: I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time and passed.
which regulations iu connecttion wit.h the Ordin­ The Excise Regulations the rather ance, Chapter 312, contains more complicated were devised brewery, and the Bill vre are now con-• sidering Council wider variety present Ordinanc proyisions therefore second time.

of things than in the e. I think all the a1·e self explan-atory, and I move that the Bill be read a to make regulations a will enable· the Governor-in_ covering The Attorney second the motion.

Gteneral: I beg to put, and agreed to.


Question Bill read a third time and passed.

bour, Health and Housing) second the motion.

Mr. Cumrning,s (Member for La­ : I beg to EXc'!S.El REGULATIONS (AMENDME:-s'l') Mr. Speaker: Would any member BILL like to speak on this Bill?

The Financial Secretary: than ti:l,e last one.

We This Bill that the ;_s more exciting have said so often in this Council the words "a step in the Tight direction."

This is a real step in the right direc­ tion.


In 1955 it wai,: provided excise duty on beu should be 50 cents per liquid ever, foere is no special law as it stands for excise supervision and control beer.

There is no doubt we shall have to have sooner sooner, consolidate Unfortunately, how­ provision in the or later, a completely of the manufacturing uncl bring up to date all and preferably new excise law to gallon.
of I am glad to hear that Limited will be pro­ Mr. Correia: Bank Breweries ducing beer within weeks.

It is heart­ ening to note that at least one of the several recently established will be going into produc­ indmtries tion :won.

I would be glad to hear suit.

Those are the of others following remarks 1 wish to make.

pioneer Question put, and agreed tu.

Bill read a second time.

2691 Post & Tel.

( Amdt.)

Bill 21ST JUNE, l.957 L. G. Special Prov.


Bill 2692 Council tesolved itself into Com­ mittee to consider the Bill clause by clame, and passed it without amend­ ment.

Council resumed.

The Financial Secretary: Bill having been passed in Committee stage without amendment, more that it be -now read a third time aud passed.

I beg to The of the Analyst Department to use such sub­ It is purposes.

possibility finding it necessary stances for analytical on this ground that this Bill is intro­ duced.
It is proposed Ordin-· 29 of the Post and Teiegrapi1 auce, Chapter regulations modelled Kingdom legislation.

on the United to amend section 132, and to enact suitable Mr. Gajraj: I beg to second the motion.

l\fr.

Cummings: I beg to second the motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

Bill read a third time and passed.

COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE POST AND TELEGRAPH (AMENDMENrr) Council resolved itself into Com­ BILL mittee and passed the Bill as printed.
Mr. Kendall (Member for Com­ and Work's): munications the second reading of the Bill standing in my name and intituled: I beg to move " An Ordinance to amend the Post and Telegraph Ordinance."

Council resumed.

1\'11'.

Kendall: I beg to move that the Bill be read a third time and passed.

Mr. Gajraj: I beg to second thg motion.


e to referenc 2, seeks to permit the This Bill, with special transmis­ claus.e substances sion by post of radio-active to con­ in accordance made in regulations ditions Ordin­ under the Post and Telegraph the provisions ance, notwithstanding of section sub­ or noxious by post.

stances witil and subject prescribed 29 thereof, Question put, and agr.eed to.

Bill read a third time and passed.


LOCAL GOVERNMENT (HOPETOWN AND BEL AIR COUNTRY DISTRICTS) (SPECIAL PROVISIONS) BILL reported constituents from this Colony The Government Analyst con­ that small amounts of minerals have taining radio-active in fact been exported without iical Department, though .not in suf­ quantity to be harmful.
In ficient may wi�h to use future Government substances these radio-active for therapy and also, there is the and diagnosis, special packing by the Geo}o .. Mr. Gajraj: On behalf of the hon.

the Member for Local Government.


Social Welfare opment (Mr. Farnum), the second reading and Co-operative Devel­ I be'g to move of the Bill iutituled: ''An Ordinance to provide for the col­ of rates levied by the Hopetown lection and Bel Air Country Authorities pect of the year 1956, and to make better In res­ 2693 L,G.

( H'Town & B/ Air 21ST JUNE, 1957Counh'y District) Bill 2694 [Mr. Gajra.i] provision due to Local Authorities."
for the collection of mQneys entitled institu­ and other by virtue of they were and, of course, constitution, rates and taxes But as in all such is very simple.

At the The position 31st December 1956, the-re were two Hopetown Coun­ Country Authorities, and Bel Air Country try Authority Authority of t.ileir to collect revenue.

tions, collection of rates is not 100 per cent, so at the end of 31st Decem­ came lrer 1956 when a new Authority into being there were some outstand­ ing amounts.
As the Ordinance stands, there is no provision Authority to demand and collect ing and it has become necessary, therefore, troduced giving to this new joint country authority rates which were due and owing to the two old ones; those which ce;,.sed to exist at the 31st December, for the the old one rates outstand­ to be in­ for legislation the right to collect which succeeds 1956. with respect to this For ecme district.
prn­ was the bigg·est this Council aware of the very dif­ ficult situation particular country years Hopetown ducer of arrowroot At the same time, for a long while now, Hopetown suffered from bad drainage and absolutely irrigation facilities facilitie!':.

in this c1nmtry.

no un­ It is no use saying it is a I am ashamed to think that the Local Government sees fit to draw money and assess at the rate of $13 per acre lands which lie totally drained.
sea defence area because there is nothing to defend it against.

large amount of silt has accumulated ii.front of the villages that the villagers themselves attempting to clear their village this.

and I know are of A That is the main purpose of this there is set out in clause In orde1· to of the same cir­ Bill before the Council.
avoid the repetition cumstances, 4 of the Bill a provision in the future one authority is with another, it shall be lawful for the new authority to collect which may be owing to the two.

or which ceased to more, authorities exist.

whereby if rates joined outside As I know it, the �illagers them­ selves in an attempt to clear the are actually digging channels I mention it for what the defences.

it is worth, and I mention it in the hope that it would reach the ears of the Local Government.
New districts which never paid any rates have been new district.

squeezed into this I know oi1e private landlord provided the people of rice lands for which they paid him a small fee.

He had his own drain­ age.

That land, together has been drafted wisely or unwisely into a Country District.

Hopetown with all their with others, The Bi11 is a simple one.

It is necessary.

of the Council will agree to pass it, and I do so move.

I feel sure Memliers Mr. Kendall: I beg to second the motion.

]\fr.
]\fr.

Jailal: Well, I cannot raise but I feel objection to make I should take this opportunity to the Bill itself, Already Hopetown is in a miser­ able plight and cannot pay the new The position is made rates levied.

becttnse added to difficult; extremely this $13 is a rental of $10.

This means rice farmers would the averag·e have to pay at the rate of $23 per acre in order to get 15 bags of 2695 L.G.

H'Town B/Air & padi.

It: is a rid,iculous situation.


There is no water a nd the people have to depend entirely fo1· their water supply.

The drainage is good in only one section of this whole area from the gasolene stRtion at Bush Lot to the Hopetown School.

on the rainfall District) Bili 2696 fixes the rates which they 21ST JUNE, 1957 Cozintry themselves.

can,not pay.

It is the Local Authority, the Chairman and Members who fix the rates and those rates are then approved by the Local Government Board.
I think it is misleading make people feel that an appointed body, other than the representatives of the people, they, the people, fix the rates which are not able to pay.

to Sir Frank McDavid: May I ask if it is a declared drainage area?

Mr. Jailal: I cannot answer that firmly because I do not think it is.

It has only just recently been declared a Country District, Defence area.

and it is a Sea Dr. Fraser: I 1•ise to support the hon.

Member, Mr. Cummings.


The fix their own rates Local Authorities which are then approved by the Local Government Board.

Nobody else fixes the rates.

Sir Frank McDavid: I was try­ the reason for the ing to ascertain high rates.

Miss Collins: I would suggest that _this matter be deferred.

The Attorney General: I think it would be most unfortunate if this Bill do.es not become law, because a lot of people who have to be in a precarious is not made law.
pay their rates would position if the Bill Mr. J ailal: I do not wish to e any opposition introduc because all it seeks to do is to give authority for the collection of rates, which are fixed ment.

by the Local Govern­ to the Bill Mr. Cummings: I would like to has fixed the rates.

I was means by saying the Local enquire for the purpose of clarifica­ tion what the hon.

Member, Mr. Jailal, Government under the impression Authorities own rates and the estimates are approved by the Local Government Board.
that the Local fixed their themselves Mr. Ramphal: I rise tosuppartthe I want to get possession the hon.

Member now in motion before the Council.

congratulate charge of the Bill that even at this late sta,ge he should finally of a Bill.

I am sure he did it in a very manner.

T wish to use this masterly as w.e are virtually opportunity, to a close.

to a wild statement to it.


The objection is slowly introducing Plan through­ out the country without that Plan as a document coming before this Council as a and before it ha.s b.een policy of this Government.

to draw attention and my objection is that Government the Marshall decided coming Mr. Jailal: If my understanding of the term "Local Government" correct no Local Authority member of the Local· Government Board fixed its rates.
w hich is a is Mr. Cummings: It is misleading for the reason that it gives the idea that somebody, other than the people t this I am saying that throughou country today those of us who have ears would hear that a policy is be­ is a strong feeling ing put into Government ing debated or decided I am sorry the hon.

Member in charge of Local Government operation without this Council hav.

is not here in per- - there by this Central on the question.

2697 L.G.

H'Town & B/Afr 21ST JUNE, 1957 C.Dis.

S.P.


Bill 2698 particularly the Ramphal] that is being estate and the one to against the initiation Plan.

I know what I think Govern­ ll\'lr.

son to heai-the critieism levelled outside of the Marsiiall position is inside.

ment should corue out anci tell the people We are mere­ what is happening.

ly trying to complete the J\farshall Re>port but that is not understood out­ after side.
I take this opportunity, congratulating able way in whici1 he has handled this Bill, to say what is being said outside about area of Crown Lands which is part of a prh·ate which tfrn hon.

Member directs attention is an estate which was part of the old Authority many, many ye<ars, but which, am told by some curious was nev2r rated• and for the first If that is time it ha� been rated.

it may have some so, I wouid suggest r�Iation district.

consideration for we mischance the Marshall Plan.


but it is not part of the my hon.

Friend on the of the Bill.

to the future of this counh·y d, I am 1s1ure his re.­ of the remarks and it.

So far as the point to do is that department would All it can ser1•e the appropriate take tog·nizance look into rnised by the i10n.

Member, Mr. Ram­ phal, fr concerne marks would recehe the attention the hon.
Member for Local Govern­ ment, but at this stage I am sur.e the hon.-Member would appreciate that the Marshall got through in time for this Council to discuss ti1ie 'implemeDJta11ion Plan.

It is not necessary say any more, motion be put.

O:f the Mia1rshaJl for me to and I do ask that the it and what is known as Report was not of Mr. Gajraj: I would like to take our I want to of joining to thank hon.

Mem­ the proceedings hon.


Member, Mr. Ramphal, we haYe got througi1 and this has, given this opportunity bers · for enlivening of the Council at this stage.

Apparently, Bills too easily, them the opportunity ha n d s. Particularly, thank the for his kind rcfe1rences to me.

May I say right now, I do not myself be­ lieve foe hon.
Member, Mr. Jailal, attacking Bill, a,nd the principle I am glad he said so subsequently, cause as I pointed out in presenting the motion for the second reading, Bill merely tries to provide the legal machinery created debt� which were known predecessors which ceased 31st Dec ember, 1956.

That is all we are at the moment discussing.


outstanding to the of this Authority to exist legally on the on 1st July, 1957, to c01Iect for this Loc•al Authoritr, of the the was be­ of the what is the wrong impression im­ is an attempted people�there plementation of a policy of the Plan without any; aciceptanc;,e by this Council.

that is why I said what I did.

The hon.

Mover i's right and Mr. Ramphal: That is exactly The point the hon.

Member, Mr.

Question to.


put, and agreed, ts-they were not in existence.

the inclusion of are!

)-S Jailal, raised regarding in this Country District which are not part of the two seperate distric Because the hon.

Member mentioned it, we got an officer Government facts.

It is true that it includes an Board to gi,·e us the of the Local Bill read a second time.

COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE Council resolved mittee and considered the Bill dause by cbnse without -amendment.
itself into Com­ 2699 Animals (Control 21s'f Oc'l'0BER, 1Ul'i6 of E:c']Jier,iments) Bill 2700 CG uncil resumed.

Mr. Gajraj: I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time and passed.

lHr.

H:�nuall: I beg to i:econd the motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

from performing-an experi­ Members will .see that clause 3 seeks to prohibit any perrnn other than .

a licensee ment, and that a licensee fo1·m rn1y experiment with the terms of his licence.
Clause 4 seeks to prevent the pel'forma.nce of any experiment manual skill.

for attainling in accordance must per­ Bill read a third time and passed.

ANIMALS (CONTROL OF ExPE1uMENTS) BILL l\Ir.

Cummings ( M e m b e 1· for : I 1, ab our, Health and Housing) beg to move t:ile sec:ond reading of ::1 Bill intituled: ''An Ordinance -0£ experiments matters to regulate on living animals, therewith.''
the practice and in connection Clause 5 seeks to perruit the per­ to certa'in of experiments When one looks at the Hill formance for illustra­ ting-features subject condi­ tiom;, while clause 6 seeks to prohi­ bit the performance of any experi­ ment Cl":cept for the purposes and subject to the conditions set out therein.
he would see that there is provision tin C'lansc1 special ment without administerling thetic to an animal or without killing the animal before it recovers from the influenc I do not think it is necessary for me to say a11ything 9.)

for the grant of a permit to perform an experi­ more about the Bill.

e of such anaesthetic.

anaes­ Sir Fran!, the motion.

set·ond McDavid: I beg to I do not think I neecl dilate on for such a Bill.

The very humane one.

the nece!


'sity object is really a It is to ensure when it is necessary, Hf it often is, to use live animals for the purpose of experiments that the person 1mdertaking such experiments doe� rn in a manner as provided law-under the control Department.

of the Medic-al by Dr. Fraser: I do not think the of this BiE are are being car­ i,,vitil the The expe1·iments :l'ied outi in c·onformity p:rinCiples tions.
It ha,s been ,cornsidered the Secretary have been considered monwealth authorities l:'hould be very careful ner in which the,;,,e be performed.

Object,; and Rcas;0ns very clear.

So far as I know, ex­ periments are not carried out on animals in this Colony.

What I would like to knm.v, however, is if a medical practitioner mf the f>Hactecl R,eg,ula- a Ifrcnc.e diagnosing inoculation mind, it would not be fair for this Bill to apply to such a person.
It is a matter of routine in the diagnosis of c.ertain diseases that one has got to resort to a,nimal inoculation, and it wo�1ld not be fair for a medical officer or a veterinary out a licen�e to do .so under this Bill.

Ref.erence has to take out in the case where i1e is a disease calling-for the of an animal.

To my The Objects and Reasons of the Bill set out in detail what are th� rarious thinF:s to be done.

Hon.
about the man­ experiments would by other Com­ - that we has been made herein to the of State - 2.11d his views surgeon to have to take by 2701 Animal (Control of 21ST JUNE, 1957 Bill 2702 Experiments) of illustrating ng all experime of performi [Dr. Fraser] question for the purpose and here again I would like it to be made quite clear that if a medical icer or a veterinary so it should not be necessary take out a licence matter of fart, I do not think that the Medical Department, including the hospitals, off­ wants to do for him to under this Bill.
As a is aware of the Bill.

surgeon nt a lecture, a guinea pig, for in.stanc.e necesrnry licence ?

for me too take out a.

_.,__ it would be Mr. Cummings: 1\1:y ans,wer wonld be ''ye.s".

The Attorney General: I think to the animal that would be something that might not be for its good.

I do not think there would be any objection to an injection or intended that is an operation the animal.
to benefit to as between Mr. Cummings: I have been looking Mr. Cummings: I am grateful but I do not, I think there i's a. difference �nd an .experiment the kind of tl'eatment (to animals) that is speak­ the hon.

Member (Dr. Fraser) �ng about.

I do riot regard the inocu­ lation that Dr. Fraser speaks about, :an experiment.

.into certain things recently when we had a medical expert so on for experiments , but I think that is from what Dr. Fraser is quite different saying.
I am not in a position to say however that the onlv definitio n of is one which means that "experiment" is calculated an experiment not to cause any pain.

My interpretation of this is that it is limited especially - dome.

'3tic animals suitable for that purpose.

the Attorney General, agree with the view expressed.

It is not the stick of the inje{:.tion that itself matters, to my mind, but the fact that he (Dr. mu.st be granted p,er­ mission to do so.
I fee] that the is "yes": he a,110:wer to hiis question c.e.

I do would have not think anybody else would be allowed to carry on such an experiment, and Dr. Fraser would have to do it in the proper way.

Government does not the Council bring these Bills before, without getting the advice of people who know.
to take out a lic,en to guinea pigs mice and Fraser) using· Mr. Ramphal: We all know that he should be particularly Dr. Fraser is a Veterinary and I think disturbed that he will have to take out a licence to, in the eir,cumstances know about this clause-to referred Surgeon, I think the idea behind this General: This legis­ The Attorney is bas,ed lation on United Kingdom !eg­ isla tion and has been adopted in Jamaiea and other West Indian terri­ tories.
to differentiate between of this nature and an ope_r11tion.

experiment animal it may not be for the good of the animal, but for rnme other purpose uot neces.sa animal itself.

an ,experiment If an is performed with an rily for the good of the is - Mr. Speaker: Will the hon.

Dr. some idea of Fraser give the Council what he fears with regard to hims.elf surgeon?
as a veterinary Mrs. Dey: One does not need to visit Berbice to know that Dr. Fraser Surgeon, and I do not is a Veterinary see why it Ehould be neces'sa1·y for hlim to take the to practise sion which he went abroad and profes.

studied, and returned Government later to serve the years.

out a licence for s.even Mr. Ramphal: I am afraid the the point.

hon.
hon.

Member is missing Dr. Fraser: I am trying to find out whether, disease and having to use � rabbit or if I wish to diagno,',e a Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaktr, to a point of order.

am rising I 2703 Animal (Control of 21ST JUNE, 1957 E:xveriments) Bill 2704 1\'lr.

Speaker: We are not in Com­ mittee yet.

that is the case, all doctors take out a .special lirence.

will have to at Queen's College toads are Mr. Cummings: On a point of orcl.er.

:.\fr.
:.\fr.

Speaker: I think you had bet­ ter cover your point in your reply.

Mr. Cummings: replied.

already I think I have Mr. Gajraj: May I point out that to the there is no fee attached licence it just gives permis­ sion to persons who have certain qualifications, knowledge and ability to perform this type of experiment.
In other words, as I see it as a lay­ man, it prevents criminately doing to animals this sort of experimen tation which might r'esult in, let us say, a complete absence of a particular people from indis� type of animal.

Mr. Speaker: Then somebody else will sp.eak on the point.

and so forth.

I wanted to know from what is going t0 hap­ Mr. Jailal: the hon.
Member pen in terms of the clauseE I feel the object of this Bill is to allow Depart­ the Government ment i.o condur·t experiments of this type a.s freely as it wishes.

But we have to consider laboratory cfo:se�ted das8es.

that in places like the from time to time in science Bacteriological and a vet wants tu try serum on that animal ·Will the Rill affect .such activity?
If a horse is suffering from a certain type of disease out a certain and he u:,e,3 one of the guinea pigs one can f ind all over the place, d0 you mean to tell me he must take out f or that purpose?

Is he not a licence llcen�ed enough to do that, as a doctor?

:Mr. Cummings: I readily admit of merit in the hon- My own view is, objection.

there is a d'egree 1\'Iember's that it is a slightly absurd position that a group of laymen should licence someone who is professionally fi.ed to do a certain act.
But not all doctors for research be irksome and farcical to he licensed several necessary in matters like this- for this, there are other doctors on whom it is - in fact, very few - go in that an eye should he kept work, and while it might for a surgeon quali­ It is very difficult to bring about a small just exempting but it is my this legislation section of th.e profession, desire to see this humane Bi11 made law, apart from the fact that it is something of civilized countdes - England, Jamaica and others.
that is done by a number But the doctor i.g to do that, the neces­ If a layman ·was seeking then I can well understand sity for a licence.

making life sa.

:fer b�· his experiments, why any and I cannot re<1lly understand doctor should take out a spe�ial to do curative work.

I feel this sort of provision doctor, because he trie.s things on poor vert.ebrnte.s like myself.

If he has at hand a new antibiotic, he may try it out on you and then you owe him, though he is not sure about it.
If should apply to a medical licence out f\ lot of I may add this: not everything the Secretary of State invites us to clo is done by us merely out of his ipse di.Tit.

W.e mu.st think for our­ selves and sometimes we cannot do what is suggested Secretary of State says on this matter: at all.

But the ·' ...

The replies under reference show territories savingram that in Colonial there is no specific to my cfrcular generally 2705 Animal (Control of 21ST JUNE, 1957 Expe1·iments) Bill 2706 lMr.
Cummings] COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE to perform them.

I con�ider legislation limiting of ex­ the practice to tho5e per­ on living animals periments sons licensed it to be important should be subject legislation liamentary have therefore the position my circular, give consideratio legislation.

that such experiments to proper control by and, in reply to a further Par� !
in view of to revealed to invite Governments to such n to introducing on this subject, by the replies undertaken, question I consider it to be important that the a licensing main provisions to the control animals by means of should be adopted wherever in this Act, which relate on living of experiments system, possible, .. " As I have said, it is not who said is said.
it that matters, hut wh'a.t This is a gradual processing after and after parliamentary discussion of it locally, and our Director feels we were jm:tified tion forward.

of Medical Services in putting questioning thi's legisla­ Mr. Speaker: Surely a qualified Council resolved itself the Bill clans.e in'to Com­ by mittee to consider clause.

Clause 3-Inte1·pi•otatiun Mr. Ramphal: This clause really In other puts the matter in a nutshell.
words, it is a humanitarian We are saying there shall be no experi­ ments at ail, but if an experimen t is to out, it should be done by a be carried will in Council The Governor licensee.

decide who are to be those people and they will be properly out such experiments.

I think that is the proper perspective to trained to carry look at it.

mov.ement.

Clauses 3 to 13 passed as printed.

Clause 14-Penalty.
Clause 14-Penalty.

Mr. Speaker: The clause says - '' ... upon conviction thereof shall be liable to a fine of $240 or to imprisonment for any term not exceeding to both such six months or fine and such imprisonment.''

man should not ask permission what he is qualified to do.

to do It is a specific penalty.

Mr. Cummings: d to do so.

As far as -experiments on a living Any person who i.s going to The Bill means to do what it says.

He should not be exempted.


perform must be license doctors application Licensin tions being asked or conditions posed; but, as far as the lay people there may be impoi:ed are concerned, a number of conditions.

or the ques­ im­ to the Director are concerned, g Authority Mr. Cummings: which th.e Court found It would appear of con-· is capable which is rather flexible.
I a m bush rum that the word "liable" struction rather aware of a decided appeal case in that the Magistrate which contained provision words used here.

I propo�e, to amend it to say .. liable not exceeding will meet the ca£e.

was bound by the the same however, to a fine that it is an automatic ,vithout any animal $240".

I think Question put, and agreed to.

I think I see the point my friend is making, still I think it is highlv we should go further desirable non-controversial Bill.

(Laughte1').
(Laughte1').

with thi� C),ause 14, as amended, passed, Clause 15 passed as printed.

Council rernmed.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a s-econd time.

Mr. Cummings: I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time and passed.

2707 -Benefits for 21ST JUNE, 1957 ·Govt.

House Employees 2708 Sir Frank McDavid: I beg to sec­ ond the motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a thir.c:l time and passed.


a portion is to enable those employees on and after the 1st of ernor will contribute towards of the cost.

The purpose of this resolution who are serving January, 1955, to obtain superannuat benefits.

Finance Committee, resolution to ratif�, resolution.

ion As I say, it has been agreed by and this is a formal it.
I beg to mov.e the SUPERANNUATION GOVERNMENT HOUSE EMPLOYEES BENEFITS FOR The Chief Secretary: I beg to move the following name on the Order Paper- in my motion :,tanding the salaries and wages of the at Govern­ for in the " Whereas domestic employed employees ment House were provided Estimates thereupon entitled accordance fits; and since 1955 and such employees employees became Government in benefits to superannuation with the rules for such bene­ Mi·.
Cummings: I beg to second the I wish to record the view that and desirable are concerned, motion.

this is a very necessary step rn far as domestics and I am hoping that this Legislature would approve of steps being taken by the Administration of this Colony to put them in a similar positio servants.

ployers of d0mefltic hh11 thi:< :'."'

811 example thing for these people wi10 ·;,•ork for them and for whom very little servants and do so;11.;_ One hopes that many em­ n to public is done.
have W h e r c a s prior to 1955.

'.h<' said to such .<;nper­ held on benefits prior to 1955, of the Committlc'e at a meeting would exisit.
1955; had agreed that the May I state that this the date to restrict Mr. Ram1>hal: al)pears employees annuahon Whereas were not entitled and benefits; the Finance Legislative Council 3rd Jami:11·y, service should poses as if such service had been �ith the Government: of such employees be treated re.solution from whith the right to these super­ annuation for superannuation pur­ ar.e certain people who retired and some matters relating brou,ght I was hoping that the res_olution have included and I referring Governor's retired puts the matter in the right perspec­ bendlts to tive.
would person­ to the had particularly who I thought last year, to them wer.e That this Council Be it resolved: prior to thP.

1st nroves of the service 1955 of persons employed Je.r.Uarv, on and af-ter that domestic employees House being deemed elate at Government to he service with the Government that such service calculating be paid to such employees tirement rules gov_en1ing by Council 6th July, 1951 as amended No.

LVI of the 8th May, 1957".


may be included the superannuation on their re­ with the existing No.

LII of the by Resolution such awards approved FI'SHERlES REG11LATIONS DEFERRED one particular by Resolution in accordance Mr. Speaker: chauffeur Ther.e so in before rn55.

This resolution ap­ af.

before the Finance Committee.

This is a formal resolution to im­ of Finance Com­ last year.

Before 1955 all plement a decision mittee tal�en the employees were paid from the Allowances of the Government.
They were not Government employees.

In 1955 they became Govern­ ment employees ,Government funds.

al_though the Gov- and a�·e now paid from of Government House The next item (12) is a motion by the Member for Agri­ culture for the approval (Licences) Fisherie£ (Marketing) Hl57.

Regulations, of Fisheries 19-57, and Regulations, Sir Frank McDavicl: I think this item ,got on the Order Papei:.

advance ask that it be def.err,ed.

of time and I would therefore I only gave in a little 2709 Fisheries Reg.
Deferred 21ST JUNE, 1957 Marriage ( Amdt.)

Bill 2710 [Sir Frank McDavid] notice of it yesterday and I am not quite ready to go ahead today.

Item deferred.

MARRIAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL because of r.esentment the,· wish to marry in accord­ have a feeling ·whenever ance with the· religious get that marriage register which to continue and unless a dubs them as immigrants, change is made their c·hildr.en and their children's same thing.
rites, in order to ed they have will have to do the children to obtain a certificate The Chief Secretary: I beg tu move the second reading of the Bill intituled: ''An Ordinance further to amend the Marriage Ordinance,'' at­ Within the last 30 years several tempts have been made to introduce changes in the law relatin mauiag.e of Hindoos first attempt, instance of the Indian leaders This led to the drafting g to the and Muslims.

The was made at the of a Bill which I think, in 1921.

1 - --- ·;��- called .


the ..

Jii.11�1·.

: · · iiT.i.d --�.r-·!

:;;-; -Eill.

Ey 1927 that Bill was Marri�ge ealled the still in draft and a Committee Committee was ap­ Asiatic and prepare pointed draft.

Ten y.ears in draft, Marria-g.e to consider and so it went on.
later the Bill was still a new I suppose the obvious remedy livin,g adminis­ certificate with the altogether, but im­ a number of original here, and for the time would be to di:::pense impediment there are still migrants being there are good reasons tratively why that certificat e should be retained.

About two years ago the pres­ ent Governmen t decided a comprehem:ive was ;,.�.-ocit,�c·d British religion.

by a special alh· concluded not ripe for introducing ance.
Guiana irr.es,pective of their That prnposal Committe.e was examined and it was fin­ wa� still that the time to cover the residents of that it was time su�h an Ordin­ Marriage Orrlinance The Hindoos and the Muslims should be.

De­ differences which have and still exist.
agreement between the parties in the seemed to have wanted changes law, but they have never been able to agree what those changes spite the many existed general that there is one matter which should be r.emedied and that is, a means should be found to abolish to be ob­ which is required certificate tained under the Indian Marriage Ordinanc I think there is e. the non-impediment This certificate wa.s required by Ordinance of Immigration for valid -reasons but, tm­ the requirement of the law the original this country fortunately went furth'er ,gation of obtaining only on the original on the descenda.nts it is very understandable Guianese .
t1-tions this certificate not but also immigrants in perpetuity.

I. think that of the third and fourth gener­ and it imposed the obli­ who ate descended from Indians The Government felt, however, the provisions this advice must be ac· to means now a more up-to..:date according to rites.
It was decided to introduce that although cepted it had the responsibility provide for Muslims and Hindoos to get m a r r i e cl their own religious therefore this Bill and, at the same time, to leave undisturbed of the Indian Labour Ordinance.

lims and Hindoos would nath-e methods whereby they can get married, and it is entirely tn decide which method to adopt.

The intention should be allowed for a period and in the light of experi­ Ence we can see which one is preferred.
If people show that they prefor one mefood, the othei-can then be dis­ penseq with .

is that these two methods y to run concurrentl In this way Mus­ be given alter­ up to them 2711 Mai-1·iage 21ST JUNE, 1957 ( Amendment) Bill 2712 When I gave notice of the introdnc- later in this debate, but hope he will me if I attempt to summarize and-the four main points he made at that that First of all, he claimed and MuE'lims who came to this the personal law of the country 1under the indenture.
system are Yery difficult and must understood they would be allowed to to you for that ad-meeting.

with caution, tiou of this Bill yon, Sir, kindly ad-forgire dsed me to proceed I am thus grateful vice, for, as you said, the questions Hindoos which c-oncern in-dividual be-dealt with, with great delicacv.
Honour will recall th b. t f th" B"ll I • 1 tl t I would not proteed and that I would provide the opportun- ity for anybody who wanted to see me about the Bill, to make repre8entation That, Sir, I iiave done.

e O J cc S O .

JS I , saH 1a that when j stated · .

.


Your enrry nn their ways of life in accord._ laws, and _he of the I ndian and particularly the with undue haste • t f H" d d M r lll m� r- f we.re in con ·o"ml y • t an.�e with their perrnnal saw that the enactment • Labour Ordrnance carrymg ou O 111 u an.

us l riage ceremonies /,vith 'fois prin.bipile.


Secondly, he claimed that any w_!i.y On Monday last, 17th June, I met s of three Hindu organi­ in the existing changes Hindoos and Muslims must be initiated by Hindoos and Muslims themselves·.

law as it affects he said our Thirdly, with the second he said the Government, and four Muslim organizations.
away that the expressed were good - was insuffi­ Yersed in Hindu and Muslim a Bill of this kind, to introduce representative sations I do not wish to hide anything from and therefore I will say this Council, of majority straight no matter how good its intentions-and to opposition those present I would like to mention the Bill.

Having ma.de that statement intentions Your Honour may be wondering ciently 1 atn now proceeding matters reading -of the Bill.
I .am doing so be­ and that it did not :iiave consultations of those the majority cause although with Hindu and M!uslim organizations with persons expressed disagreement before preparing the Bill I am.
and the Governmeut are, snid that the Indian Labour Ordinance by no means convinced was antiquated and should be brought which were put forward for opposing up to date; that while there was need the Bill, with one exception, to keep pace with changing conditions, sound; and indeed I should say that foe Bill I was bringing the reaso_ns ,vere so varied that one Council conld say that there was no united opposition ground.
I should also add foat I have from religious several letters received organizations me that they sup­ port the Bill whole-heartedly.

organizations, ·were not represented first point, is, I thinl,, it refers or some of them at least, to the Bill on common was unsuitable.

the Bill.

Lastly, at the meeting.

that the reasons laws of the individual forward telling were ma.Hy in this Those he rests•.
.because on which most of If in fact Govern­ in any way Mr. Singh's the most important to a misconception the opposition ment were to interfere with the personal it would be a very serious deed, but my conviction ill no interference whatever.

As I said before, is doing is to introdnre of getting Muslims.

married fo1· Hindoos and on matter in­ is that there all the Government There is no compulsion rnetilod an .alternative The hon.
Member, Mr. Sugrim at the meeting and Singh, was present indeed iie would not argue with me if I him as the principal describe man for the 'opposition.'

I have no _doubt we shall he h_earJng from him spokes­ Bill 2714 2713 Marriage 21ST JUNE, 1957 , ( Amenclnient) [The Chief Secretary] anybody to use this method.

The ex­ law, which is in force today, isting will for Life can go ·on unc:hanged 1·emain.

those who wish it so.

It is as though has a stair­ there was a building way.
It is decided to put in a lift but the stairway is retained.

Those who wish can continue way, but those who decide to use the new contrivance to walk up the stair­ can use the lift.

w,i1ich can solemnize with the Ordinance 110 other form of m a r r i a g e. That is probably the mo£t con­ clause in the Bill.

Certainly tentious that was made very clear to me last Monday.

The pundits and moulvis were deeply concerned about this clause and what effect it would have on them.
Theil-problem is that if they I will take Mr. Singh's next two As I haye said, during puints together.

tiie last thirty-six years there haYe been several attempts to amend the Hindu and Muslim marriage law, and the reason why the attempts haye no one has eyer been failed is bec:ause able to get all the yarious organiza­ tions to agree.

officers ai:, I understand, a1·e in a very peculiar position.
I think pos­ fleek appointment as marriage under this Bill, they would be pre­ cl n<�ed from solemnizing any other and that would put them marriages, in a very ctifficult the pundits ition, to the Hindu faith there are family They pointied priests.

same members of a family decided to marry under this Bill and othern de­ cided to remain nnder Labour Ordinance, would be in a difficult the family priests that according out that if the the Indian position.
If one accepts that only Hindoos forward any of the law, that is tanta­ and Muslims can bring amendment mount to saying they would never bring forward any law.

To say that tile Government not consulted, YCrsed in these matters bring forward a law like this, is also quite untrue.

of the has amendment and is not sufficiently to be able to on this subject, There is a wealth of information files acquired during and Govern­ on Government the :years ment is fully aware of every viewpoint.
That is the t'eason cided not to proceed with a compre­ hensive Ordinance at the present time.

why w,e have de­ in the Committ1ee Gove1;nment that position.

t.his has recognized and with Your Honour's I propose difficulty, permission stage to move a small amendment which, I hope, would go a good way towards rectifying The effect of th.e amendment will be to cna hie marriage marriages Ordinance and under the Indian La­ So priests.

bour Ordinance.
bour Ordinance.

of the religions Hindu and Islamic will be marriages able to solemnfae both laws but they will not be allowed to solemnize both under the Marriage officers to perform under unregistered ma1Tiages.

I shall move in Committee.

I .should now like to turn to the Bill itself and mention one important amendme�t Clause 3 pf the Bill provides t!tat marriag� the Tu;famic or Hindu religion .

.sole,ml.,l_i ..7:�s a marriage and who in _a��1·dance a either who professes officer ·.
"i ,,.,ith Another point in connection this clause which was brought out is, how will Government know whether for appoint­ persons are �uitable Th at is ment as marriage officers?

Gov­ easily ernment would make the most inquiries a marriage to a particular Any responsible careful officer.

If a perso.n be1ongs before appointing answered.

religious anyone as organization.


2715 M a,rriage 21ST JUNE, 1957 ( Amendment) Bill 2716 from that whether that person is If Government would inquire organization fit and proper to be so appointed.

he is, what is termed "independent.''

sense, then Government in a religious in the area from would make inquiries which he came and satisfy be.

itself yond any doubt that he is a fit and proper person lrefore appointing him officer.
I do not think as a marriage it is necessary or very practicable write all this down in the law.

I think it is a reasonable that Government p-resumption would do that.

to of these matters of lack of knowledge and faili,ng all the otgfl nisa­ to consult tions, at my recent meeting with the religious representatives, 'l'hJey was made to these requisites.

were not challenged at all.

I think in that case it is reasonable to Rssnmie they are not objectionable be accepted.
and should no re!erence persons Lastly, there is clause 12 "'hich who are already mar• enables ried according to the rites of the Hindu or Islamic religion, to haVle their marriages l'egistered new law, provided tion from the Indian Labour Ordinance and they register within 12 months of the date of enact­ ment of this Bill.

under this they obtain exemp­ The next important provision Bill as the the figures hand thre hon.
Christians on the subject, their ma n-iages as well as Hindoos Those are the most important 1-vould agree that it to have some form of informed in India the ages had is clause 6 of this Bi11, which the minimum ages for males which in fact affects the entire popl.l• lation, :md Muslims, Marriage (Amendment) provides and females for marriage - 16 for males and 14 for females.

I do not think there is much dispute abont those ages.
One Hindu organisation had mentioned they thougl1t high, but on the othe1· Member, Mr. Sugrim Singh, who did some research us that rece,ntly been raised to 18 and 16 respectively.

I think everyone h desirable minimum age written in the law.

There i.s none in the Marriage ance.

As I have already said, qt�estions.

the provisions of this amending will enable Hindoos and Muslims to many under the same Ordinance else.
And incidentally, everyone Bill also enables persons profesfing the l\l[uslim who do not come from India to many to· tJheir rrllig;'ious• rites and to according' At get their marriages the present moment they cannot.

do so.

I h ave said, this Bill is forcing nothing on anybody.

may take advantage or may ignore it if they wish.

I move notice Hon.

Members will also that the Bill be now r-ead a second that there is a subclause which enables time.
a female who becom\es pregnant before to the age of 14 to apply by petition the Chief Justice to for permiKsion get married before that minimum age and, if necessary, a male of under 16 years.

In ::;huse 9 are set out requisite 1s of a valid contracted marriage under this Bill according to the rites of the Hindu or Islamic religion.
that although unfortunat ed to proceed to amend the substantive dinance, 164, to include and Muslim marriages, and also to in­ as clude the Hindu and Muslim priests has decid­ with this Bill which seeks Marriage 01·• Hindu Mr. Sugrim Singh: It is rather e that Government It is significant is accused Tlte Attorney second the motion.

The community of it if they wish, registered.


to be married to Government General: Chapter Ord'i.11- I beg to or Hindu religion 2717 Ma1•r·iage 21ST JUNE, 1957 ( Amendnnent) BiJ.l 2718 officers.

I want to say at the as stated by the hon.

Mov.er of of Govern­ is [Mr. Sugrim Singh] marriage outs.et, this Bill, that the ment in bringing undoubtedly amendment Jess heal, the burning the last .31 years has been occupying the of Government and of both the attention Hindu and lVInsJim populntion Colony.
intention this amendment but I do say that this good_, does not even touch, much question which for in this every that while this law of ost.racism.

faced with a life-career It was realised might have suited ancient days and worship one could not sit clo,vn quite rightly, pro­ the inequity a,nd, was made for the vision for divorce first time.
I fully appreciate that the Indian Labour Onlin:mce has served its time and purpose un­ der the old system of indenhi,·eship, more modern clays immi­ but in thes,e of history and gration is a matte1· hold water or the Ordinance cannot of th\e younger meet the requirements generation the fact .

As stated by you, Sir, this matter I could col­ in this Colony, laws of India, so as to find bringing Jaws aff.eeting up to date of amending and Hindoos and the marriage Muslims is not an easy one.
One of the things to which I gave priority when I went to India was an inquiry into the marriage out how much information lect and place before Hindu and Muslim org·anizations in solving this difficult after .consultation .attached that there are uo enactments and if I may on this problem, directly I will be permitted graph of a letter Ministry at th1e head of which is Pandit lt says: read the third para­ from the I received in India, Affairs Nehru.

of India hearing to the Government of External matter.
I found with the Jaw officers to assist ''We have no statutory Muslim marriages" garding provision re-· For the first time in the history Act, No.

25 of 1955, of India divorce is permitted, by the Hindu Marriage and ,befor.e v i sion for divorce iu India.

A very representative mitte,'2 of head me!'!

sat and as a re­ was made fo1· divorce.

sult provision this Act there was no pro­ under Hindn law Corn­ It might interest hon.

Members to know that there is no provisio11.


fo1• divorce under Hindu law, and all of this is relevant and as the were no divorced wives women could not marry they were because there Educated and other peoplre among us are now alive to their rights and of opprobrium when feel some degre,e told of what they must experience under tht!

Ordinance-appear a Justice of the Peace to get a non­ impediment that-facing- the matter .
certificate and things like all thle attendant hefore evils in cer­ that Let us examine what the proposed seeks to do.

So far as I amendment of mar­ are two systems know there· l'iage under the Labour Ordinance and it is p ossible for a man to marry and register his mv rriagje on the same day he receives a non-impediment I think it is regr-ettable tificate.
even in these enlightened days we still have Hindoos and MuslimtJ among that thr,y are not going us who insist to have their children legally The result is that after ?.11 the arrangements hav/e been concluded for a wedding the bridegroom's par­ ents also agree that the couple should married.
not be legally stated - without casting on any particular system merely amount s to a trial mar­ the man takes the riage whe1·eby woman to live with him and if she meets his satisfaction then he <l;ecides whethe1· marry her.

in all aspects, he would person-that this I have already aspersions married.

2719 Ma.rria.ge 21ST JUNE, 19517 ( Amendment) Bill 2720 I want to say here and now that The time for this prac­ in any way which I stick my neck out on this.
I shall never compromise would help to perpetrate the painful and the disgraceful practice, in these mar­ days, of allowing enlightened riages to be contr-act"ed by young­ people when those marriages are to­ tally illegal.

tice is past.

Marriages brought up to the general iu conformity mar­ riage laws of the Colony.

To put it way, no Muslim or Hin­ in a negative must b'e contracted clu marriage this Colony unless it is lawful.
I say that in the face of opinion expresse by people who are orthodox only occasions what they preach.

must be standard, and who do not practise d 011 in with the general Coming back to this point, I I am against to the obsolete Indian Labour and bring all marriages :mch an would like to see introduced amendment as would put an end com­ pletely Ordinance on the same plane, with certain proyi­ law the personal sious to accommodate of Hindoos and Muslims.
this question marriage it made compulsor evading avoid the criticism tion of people who write letters the subject.

ernment that in no country is legis­ lation of this nature introduced with unanimous approval.

to get a of choosing registered.

I want to see y. Go\iernment is this with good reasons - to sec­ of a certain on But I would remind Gov­ per cent.
but there is a view that should not be made More than seventy-five of the Muslim£ are in favour of hav­ ing legal marriages, small group who hold the these marriages lawful, law.

To throw some light on this, I would like to quote from D. F. Mulla's book, "Principles (11th Edition), tions 194, 198 and 198A: and they rely on Mohamedan of Mohamkdan Law'' at chapter XIV; ;:;ec­ "Marriage (11il,r1Ji) is defined to be which has for its objE'ct the a contract of chil­ and the legalising procreation dren .

.

.
.

.

Marriage to Mohame­ according dan law is not a sacrament but a civil contract ... " In Muslim law, ·· A Mohamedan may have as many as a fifth four wives at the same time, but not wife when more.

If he marries has four, the marriage he already is not is not law­ ... '' It void but in-egular-" ful for a Mohamedan more than one husband time.

A marriage has her husl:iand alive and who has not been divorced woman t,:i have at the same by him, is void."
with a woman, who It was argued that if the Mohame­ dan law allowed four wives, how could this be made to fit in with English law which accepted mous form of marriage.

law the first marriage is legal and others contracted while a spouse in is alive are bigamou1s.

that marriage only a monoga­ In English As I have said before, the Hin­ doos have seen fit to change the laws in.

India to meet with the changing times.

In this country the East Indian is nearly fifty per cent.
population Among the Hindoos are two s·ections - the Aryan Sama.js college in D'Urban Street) Sana tans (who meet in Lamaha Street).

I met the leader;; of both sections and, as hon.

Members have seen in th,e Press, they decided to put an end to illegal unanimously (who have their marriages.

and the In Trinidad there is a special for Hindoos and a special The hon.

the for Muslims.

General can bear me out Ordinance Ordinance Attorney on that.

In Surinam it is the same.


'Ihe point I am making is that Gov­ ernment instead of introducing this Bill �hould face the entire 2721 Man·iai,ge 21ST JUNE, 1957 ( Amendment) ing Bill she has to make application to amending the Chief Justice in chambe,i·s issue and come out with a complete and put of the Indian Labour Ordin­ scrapping forward very good arguments her application ance as there is no immigrant living.
Let us compare the marriages under the Indian Labour Ordinance and those under this proposed ing Bill.

is gra.ntecl.

before Bul 2722 amend­ now My poi;-it is, while I strongly ad­ vocate that these specia1 facilities 01· must be brou,g·ht in peculiar practices line with the general marriage laws of the Colony, the time has not come have 110 re­ when we must completely gard 01· we must disrespect those s.pecial prnvidetl dina·nce.
under tire India-:i. Labour Or­ ·which have been facilities completely Under the Indian Labour Orclin­ that before a mar­ and gets a form which to the Immigration anc)e one goes Department he fills in giving certain particulars.

Section 142, subsection (1) of the provides Ordinance riag\'l is contrncte first obtain a certificate Agent-General Immigration fect that there does not appear on tlie any im­ records of the D;epartment The mar .. to the marriage.
pediment riage is not deemed to bie contracted unless that certificate must signed hy the to the ef­ d the parties is obtained.

a Magis­ Under the Indian Labour Ordi11- ca.n go ,before a11ce parties trate to obtain a divorce, otherwise they woulll have to go before thll Supreme Court.

This amending Bill se·ems to be what I desc1·1be system leaving the Muslims -and the to thoose which road they wish Hindoos to tread.

I am completely dual sy,stem.


as a dual against any On the same day one C·an obtain g parties and contract The hon.

the Chief s·ecretary the mar­ ·the certificate riage.

On the other hand under this amending BiJI the co:itractin have to give notice to the Registrar's for three weeks aml if there i,s Offic'e within that period then a no objection is isS1ued certificate riage can take place.
On the one hand you have the facility certificate hand you have to wait three weeks to obtain the certificate, of Government indicatecl by allowing is to meet one situation und·er this amending office1· marria.ge BiU to also marry under the India:1 Labour Ordina,nce.

just scratching problem?

I can only say th"ey would not like to hurt or interfere cise any direct influence question we ha.ve the ,curious ano­ pulsorily or exer­ as to the of having the marriages registered.
in one day and on the other the inte:ition of obtaining on the surface before that mal'­ Seconclly, of this has com­ the a Why is Governmellt registered At the me'eting a boy must be 15 years and 14 years of age before they can maly that under the bdian Labour Ordinance a girl miarry ,and their ma,rriage under the Onlina,nce.
Labour Ordina.nc·e clia:i der the age of 14 and finds herself enciente can without go to the Immigration who is authorized pe1·mission there were three Hindu organizations and there were Muslim organizations, and I want to say for the information of the hon.

Mover that those organiza­ their dele­ tions, not to pursue gates, this amending Bill.
The�· are responsible Agent-General and pra.ctically by law to g,rant her Muslim organizations to be married s.he the expenditure through unanimously asked Government Under the fo­ if a girl is un­ to marry.

Under this amend- the only Hindu and in this country, on Monday last ancl desires of money 2723 Ma.n·iage 21ST JUNE, 1957 ( Amendment) BiU 2724 Muslim Perhaps it would be said that we I only wish to ask Government in the foreseeable The;se but that is not the point.

not tu pursue this Bill.


One .only has to get in touch with the leading a:nd he would ,be told that they priests a Bill which have actua,Hy prepared about, they have tiforme d Gov;ernment and they are asking Government to it in the hope that it would be consider to all sides.
In such a satisfactory al matter as this, I thh1k it controversi would be well for Governme:it to examine any Bill duced locally Ordinances other neighbourin and Muslims) got a draft Bill prepared this question for have been discussing many yea.rs -and that there is no hope of a settlement future, people (Hi11dioos actually which might solve the situation manner suitable to them.
Government would be in the position thing happens from the Bill - they would be able to say that the Bill is the choice of these but it is subject people themselves amendment in the light of the simila1· in Surinam, and g coloni.es.

- if any hardships intended Trinidad to be intro­ that if a:'ly­ arlse have in a to .
Rig:ht now in Jamaica - accortl­ given to ,me by the ing to information Indian Oommissio,ner who passed there is through that Colony recently, a similar for the benefit of a s1mall people - some 35,000 Indians a much larger there.

T'his Bill affects in this coun­ Humber of people residing that one Bill only try, but it has not ev·en scratched the problems with of the intricate surface which it deals.
Bill being introduced there up to stan­ group of residi-ng I am a;wa;re of the fact that the It to bring· everything has been asked to table but I think Lt would to get o:.e compre­ Chief Secretary this amendment, he more advisahle Bills - one for or two separate hensive Hindoos and one .

for Muslims -in orcte1· dard under the Marriage Ordina.nce.
is not llesirable should be introduced; cause more controversy ment cam anticipa nt shades of chere have been differe and I ask opinion on this questio.n, Government whether there has oeen asking for an any single amendment of this nature.

Even be­ fore I became a professional lawyer I had a lot to do with this matter.

than Govern­ .te.

For three years organization it is going to of this nature.

Under I do ask the hon.


Mover of the Bill to give some indication a1& to what bod,y or group of persons has asked for an amendment the lndia.n La,bour Ord'i:J..a;nce provision is made whereby anyone who does not condi­ want to remain under certain tions could apply to the Immigrat:ion Department ment cel'tificate.

Justice used that section divest himself affects immi,gra.nts and obtain a non-impedi­ I think the late Ml'.

Luokhoo was the first man wJio and their relatives.
of this stigma which of the Ordi':i.ance to As I stand h:ere 1 speak for the mat­ who am sure that Government would of a certain the Conference organization and I appeal to 1·econsider this delegates attended to Government ter.

I not like to disregard the Muslims Hindoos and by taking this amendment Council.

I do ask ·hon.

Members are familiar perhaps regard for the feelings ancl Muslims.
Hindoos in the Colonv through th� who some more than I am, to have some with the situation, the vi·ews of thesie of the I can only ask what is the idea of for o:::i.ly a few Ordinance having an people if it would neV'er work.

Wl1y people be made to find should thes·e money i::i. order to go to a judge in or -a Justice of the Peace, Chambers, or to eta.i (;ou �el f l'P tl,.,,, """lit 2725 Ma,rriage 21ST JUNE, 1957 ( Amendment) Bill 2726 lMr.

Sugrim Singh_\ do ,certain things under the Labour Ordinance?
done is that they should go Agent-Gen migriatio-n llim a non-impediment All that is to bi; to the Im­ .eral and get from certificate.

Ind ia:1 is misconduct.

divorce vi:oion for non-consummation marriage, ground.
There is no pro­ of the or any other desertion to introduce J1as I think I have spoken enough on by of Government and I will conclude t�at the in this mat­ to do with those ov-er which and is inter­ this questioa saying that while I believe intention ter is good, the system (of marriage) which the Bill .seeks something there is no controversy, woven with them.
I clo appeal to the to realize that Members of this Council this issue is one which borders on tho law of Hindoos and Muslims pers,onal and that some considera,tion g-iv-eu to the Bill whic·h they have drafted - one which ,vou.Jd bring com­ plete harmony among them once a::i,l for an.

should be Right now I know of a. case where married at some is going "down the problem among a man who was not legally has died and his estate va,Jued or $80,000 $70,000 drah1".
The man·ia,ge people is not merely a case of th'ese "boy meets girl"; there are several intricate search has clisclosecl some 37 cases before the Supreme Court right que1stion.

que�.tions involved.

My re­ now touching upon thi.


:, that there are I may have exceeded m,v time in but I do •ask Governm€nt that it is the unanimous speaking, to consider request of Hintloos and Muslims i.:i this Colony - and I speak with some att,thority p.osed extra method acceptable to a small group who consider in these opprobiou8-, to be described as immigra11ts.
the pro­ draft Bill and not just devise an it infra dig and mod.em days, - to exaunine It is impossi,ble to get unaminity issues, because :l few perso:i.al in this country, and should not 011 this question I think that Gover,nment take this attitude peopJe throw a spanner in the works.
of politics or my It is not a question trying to 'stand out' : this matter af­ fec,ts Gov-emment Council with this matter more than I am, not to It does throug:h, rush this amendme:it not touch the problem, and a l:hough tnis Council if this matter is allowed time it will solve itself satisfaction a.nd I c1o ask and my colleagues who are even more famiiia:­ of everybody.

to the mutual in this more is s·oon to be pror.o-gued, a :Utt!� If one looks at the advertisements Mr. Speaker: 1be1· proposi:ig ment?
to Is the hon.

Mem� submit a.n amend- Mr. Sugrim Singh: Yes, Sir.

from relate by the Public Trustee to mo::iies one would who have not be'en lega.Hy Those are the things Hin� pu1bHshed time to time with respect escheated by the Goven1ment, find th•at many of those ,cases t,J persons ma1Tied.

do-as and Muslims must bear b mind.

One must not in this cas.e put new The point is, in wine in old bottles.
the Indian Labour Ordinance the onl}· ground on which the Indian immigrant c!an apply to the magistrate for a .Mr.

Speaker: Well, try to do that i,n writing mittee 1s.tage, before we reach the Com­ Mr. Ramphal: If the hon.

Mem.

ber is referring ment of .to a complete Bill -- the Maniiage amend­ 2727 Mcirriage 21ST JUNE, 1957 ( Amendment) Bill 2728 as of the and their Guiana.
from India immigrants here touched means "any :per­ any descendant to the cltildren of those immigrants In section 131 we find and whether wholly or in to the Colony or i::i.­ Mr. Sugrim Singh: I want to say-the country, and great grandchil­ for the purposes of to whieh has ibeen made so many times Mr. Gajraj: I think it is now since immigrants was des,igned and in­ of people who came here as Immi­ 120 yea.1•s first came to British Guiana, a::i.d it was in the year 19-18 that the last shiIJ bringing these shores.
Nearly 40 years have passed by since then - enough time for two generations to have been born and grown u,p out of th·e loins of those who made that las,t trip to British The Indian Lahour Ordinance l'eference this aften1oon t-ended to .be used ,in the interest tho.se grants.

That is where, l think, the framers of the law made a mista.ka when they refer,red descenda11ts.
that an immigrant son introduced or comin,g from Asia, whether directly directly, part at the expense immigration fund or otherwise, a.nd inc I u d •es of tha.t perso::i.." That is how the children grandchildr'en dren continue marriage and divorce to be dubbed as immigrants.
In this Colony tho�e of us who have been born here recog­ nize this country prepared to make every contribution pri�ileg-es which, because they were 11 towards the advancement new people coming into a strange try, cauntry a;nd meeting with customs which were to some ·extent from those they left behind in their own Alongside the is our .c-ountry, stances one would expect that a Gov-country and we feel that in the same ernment which arranges to bring way as they, we are subjected to all 1:,eople from a far-off land into ;i the penalties of the law if we commit strange land would oons,ider it obliga-offenc.es, and so far as our children tory upon it to make provisions although not in the laws governing the to be Tegarded as second class citi­ rest of the population face they may a.ppear inatory and in favour of the immigrants, were neverthe well being.
of this Ordinance which for their we have heard this afternoon refer and on the sur- zens and to be dubbed "immigrants" to be discrim-and to be made to use some of the other people of race, we feel this which are concerned we do not expect them and because 1n norma c.ucurn- · whatever It not merely gives, less necessary as our home and are to them certain provisions different of this coun­ 1 · who no longer ex- to the immigrants ist.
It is unfair and unjust if we are going to take our place the Colony's privileges.

and sha�e in as well as opportunities But when the immigrants came they came under cer­ - conditions which into this Clountry, tain cond:itions gave them the ,right of return passages tc:> their native land - and under those conditions we may have the cla,ims their child1,en, the pa,r·ents th·e same time a.nd ,by the same ship.
of and wish to retnm to India at if those children So we f1nd in the section in the Indian Labour Ordinance whic.h deals with ma.rriage and divorce refel'e:J:ce is ___ ...,_,,.. .L- L-i--!�--!------L-.!

•• .L •• -.
:J._.,.,_.j !-.&..- It is tl'tle that we can make appli­ cation for exe m pt i o n from the of the Indian Labour Or­ provisions but if one looks a t page 1456 dinance, of Volume II dealing with Chapter 104 of the Laws of the Colouy, there is a form of declaration s�n seeking e�emption which any per­ from that H- 2729 Marriage 21ST JUNE, 1957 ( Amendment) Bill 2730 [Mr. Gajraj] is clear from that, that the only per­ sons whom the Ordinance to be dubbed as immigrants who came to this Colony aud t heir children.
had in mind aTe those granted exemption of the Indian Labom· Ordinance can have his marriage under his own religious the maniage registered of the Colony.

solemnized laws :rnd be able to haye under the laws from the provisions The declanmt has to say either born in immigant who came that he i�.

an from India or an immigrant this Colony.

He has to declare by and on what date his what .�hip father or mother arrived in this Colony and to which plantation they were indentured.
e nough proof that the Indian Labour Ordinance was only intended to eover immigrants springs, necesi-'ary fur me to continue.

then I do nut think it is and their first off­ If that is not clear That is the void that faces us - a It is to be ob­ registered.

General and have his very s,eriously.


To say that he of mid foat we cannot fail to discuss and consider served that a Hindu or Muslim who wants to get married under his own marriage law may do so and then go to the Registrar marriage would haye to face the humiliation hadng a second marriage man-iage after his own religious point to my mind.
the only important The object of this Bill is to fill that for JI indoos ·void-to and Muslims who desire to seek exemp­ tion under the Indian Labour Ordin­ ance and be able to with their own religious that e,·ery in a gi yen time.

marry in acc.ordanc laws proYiding make p1·ovision ,vith­ iR registered marriage performed is not e There is another point which I Labour Ordinance would like the hon.
Member (Mr. Sugrim Singh) to appreciatP.. That is, under the Indian as soon as Indians accept the Ch1'i£­ move tian religion they a utomatically of that Ordin­ out from the provisions ance and go under the general laws of the Colony.

I refer to section 135 and the subsequent which show that yery clearly.

persons of theil' lam-wha are pernonally this Ordinance.

Muslim see.ks exer11ption dinance he would be g-ranted easily.

I know seetions.
I know seetions.

So it is only those ·who wish to retain foe religion sm or Is­ afferted by forefathei·s-Hindui if a Hindu or a from the Or• that quite because.

that.

to I have no desire to join issue (Mr. Sugrim Singh) 1·ely that it is Goyernment's with my colleague who has just spoke,n.
I have li'stened all he has had to say and I can onlvcome to the conclusion that he has ·proved conch1si duty nt this stage to proYide tunity to any section of the Inclia.n commu11ity-Hindoos abandon the provisions Labur Ordinance tection citizens of this country.

or Muslims-to of the Indian and enjoy the pro­ law as the other of the general an oppor­ He then steps out into the open or protection where r,o longer can 11e claim any of the benefits Labour Ordinance the general laws of the Colony.
That is as he wishes it to be.

and has to liYe under of the Indian But so far as marriage is con­ cerned he would find a mid awaits him, as there is no provision in our laws that a Hindu or Muslim w110 has been It is no good saying that the reli­ to do are prepared action that to which the organisations have be­ gious organisations this or that.

It is positive counts.

H the hon.


Member :iias referred fore them a Bill which covers both sides of the controversy, then it is their duty to pass it on to Gm·ermnent Government's for consideration.

2731 Marriage 21ST JUNE, 1957 ( Amendment) Bill 2732 There is no doubt that this pl'esent by a consider here now is just, to it.
The measure we would not be able to g·iye Government C'Onsideration hare before us today has taken some two years of hard work to prepare; there have been many changes in the original a.nd we feel drnft Ordinance that what is proposed fair and reasonable, r·epted 11ersons of both the Hind-u and the l\Iuslim faith.
I also make the state­ ment that aE the years roll by more and more Hindoo� and Muslims will make by the use of this Bill, if accepted than they are making of the Council, present I am one of those 01'dinance.

,Yho ham stated that the marriage and Muslims should be legal­ Hincloos ised.

and would be a,c­ able number of of On reading the Indian Labour then.
were husbands of eYery immigrant more closely I find that even Ordinance in foose early years when it was en­ was that with the acted, the intention arrirnl ship the ngent was empowered to find out 01· wiYes \\'bethel' among the immigrants and to have them registered with the laws of the Colony.

Further prm·ision permission to nrnrry, is given.

to be granted to immigrant!'!

prodding notic-e of 21 days is made in the Ordinance as suc·i1 for in accordance foat kept.
No one is going to suggest persons born in B.G.

but who have no connection with the country except with the family tree of an immigrant, should to sub­ be subjected or should continue 1 to this form of law.

ject themselveE My hon.

Friend (Mr. Sugrim Si.ngh) regis­ of the fact that one that those ·who contract that w11en used properly be given by both Hindoos and to marry (in accordance certi­ he on would regret afterwards.
has made capital can apply for the non-impediment if one is fortunate ficate a,nd that haye his marriage performed ('Ould the same day that he gets this certifi­ cate.

I am going to ask him, as a leader of his group and as a parent of children whether he does not consider it in their interest mar­ l'iage should give s.ome degree of notice and have each marriage tered'!
Otherwise, there would be marriages in circumstances which the parties I feel myself that ,'\JUCh notice F-,hould Muslims and a time lag between the it would provide with agreement the laws of either religion) and the by the actual ceremony of marriage In the case of a parties eoncerned.

confirming Hindu the ceremony the en­ gagement of the and arranging details marriage ceremony and in the case of Muslirns it is known as a Mang11i.

In some cases there are.

double cel'emonies-tw Mangni.s.


tem we have the ingredient -publicity if there is any impediment it can be brought to notice before the ceremony is actua1ly y negati rns any argu­ opinion, ment that there should be no period of time for notice to be given of the pro­ p osed marriage.

o Tilaks and two sys­ ty n to marry, and So that in the ma.n-iage of publici performed.
That, in my is known as a Ti/ale of intentio completel Then, there is provision for mar­ per­ with one's riage in accordance law, and that is where sonal religious marriage in accordance with the fa· Jamie foifo comes in.

A non-impedi­ ment certificate from the Immigration and from this certificat seen whether any of the parties wi10 propose could be obtained Agent General, e it eould be to marry wei·e already married.

• It is only reasonable to assume that that was the correct thing to be done.
The ce1·tificate had to be obtained Department from the Immigration be· cause that is where the record� were I want to say foat I was rather to hear my hon.

Friend disappointed (Mr. Sugrim Singh,) say he was sorry to know that Hindu and Muslim priests 2733 Ma.rriage 21ST JUNE, 1957 (Amendment) Bill 2734 [Mr. Gajraj] officers.
would be registered For years and years the people in this Colony of Indian descent have been clamouring as marriage - Mr. Sugrim Singh: I nm sorry my friend did not nnderstarnl I would like to see them registl-red I want him to a1\ marriage bear that in mind.

I am sorry if I created the wrong impression.

officers.

me.

:Mr. Gajraj: I thank thll b011.

Member, but I had put down his exact words.

However, those words may not have conveyed his views exactly.
Ordin• to the general married under the and Divorce abuses and or of them, refuse to have have been innumerable today the .Muslims of Trinidad, very many their daughters Muslim Marriage ance and have them reg i s tered according laws of the colony.

In hlam, it is true, any person of proper age and education may presicl,e persons.

of the marriage ible witnesses matter of divorce adopted also 1·egister and at ]-east two cred­ to be there.

In the m�thods are are officers offic-ers.


and the marriage ed as divorce over the marriage Islamic of two There must be publication There have been many others this claim to be and they must take the which go with the JWivi� who have accepted registered, cbligations leges.

All good citizens that if one claims privileges also accept r-esponsibilities.
would agree one must (Mr. the law being pushed aside, The very thing my frien<l Sugrim Singh) was talking about: maiTied and at thie people getting same time has beien happening Today the Ordinance letter I would not like to see that happen here.

We must benefit from the ex- 11errence is almost a dead­ Book of Trinidad.

on the Statute in Trinidad of others.

.

of aspect they may belong to.

there are There is Ordinances.


Marriage a genleral which like ours was drafted So far as this important of human life is concerned, it is my firm opinion that there should be a comprehensive Marriage Ordinance which will cover the requirements all the people of British Guiana, whatever religion It is true that in Trinidad three Marriage in that colony Ordinance to cover those who belong to the Christian Hindu Marriage then followed law.

I am not in a position how the Hindu Marriage -I have heard the hon.
Member (Mr. that the Hindu Sugrim Singh) say religion in the case of the Muslim Marriage law in Trinidad, I am in a position "tate that from the divorce the and law was passed, to say law operatt>s faith.

Many years ago does not accept divorce.

the Muslim Marriage angle there But to Here we are proposing to amend accord­ We nre not of one or both All we concerned.
on the corns this Bill is, "carry ceremonies the Marriage Ordinance: s!Jepping of the religions are saying through marriage c·ut your ing to the tenets of your religion.'

Indeed no one can make a priest per­ form a marriage ceremony in any other form than his church lay;:; down.

So no pundit 01· moulvi can be pushed into doing one thing or the other.

Ent having carried out that marriage in accordance with his religion, i& bound by his ace:eptance 0£ tration to have that marriage tered.
he regis­ regis­ In order to make this thing apply 100 per cent.

to all Hincloos lim� I am claiming priects-the are the ones "·ho �hould refuse to :-:,olemnize that the v'ery and the moulvis­ any maniage betwee1� pundits and Mus­ a 2735 Marriage 1957 21ST JUNE, ( Amendment) Bill 2736 is.

going to for the confusion that marriage I lay this.

charge at their couple unle£-s be registered, doors, that it is thes;e pundits and moulvis who are to a great extent to which responsible my hon.
Friend (Mr. Sugrim Sh1gh) referr1ed.

For if they are the rmes accepted heads in the as religious of the country and various sections they are looked up to for guidance, and still they do not see to it that marriages religious laws are also made legal in with the laws of the coun­ accordance try, then no one else can be blam'ed for it.

in accordance with their he can decide that to act as a judge, and if there is enough ·evidence should be dissolved.
the marriage That provision was made in the days when people were still coming from India as indentured when Immigrants, t1-1ey did not know _how to mak.� use of the laws h.ere, li:elp for people who have b'ee11 two generations mollycoddling when they needed But I say that born here aft/er, that form of and protection.

has no place.

Apart from that, there is protec- tion of Indian wives.
For example �ection 151 says: To say that the parents of the marrying themselves havle "Oh, it is not necesl"ary the marriage" have also contributed parties to the ill-doing is not to state the truth.

I know of many rnses to which Mr. Sugrim Singh has referred, where the priests been saying, to 11agister comes to the marriage But I know that the same priests, of when it comes to the marriage their daughters, saying, "Boy, you have to sign this paper before yon get married to mJ daughter."
when it of their sons.

'· 151.
Everyone who entices away or with the wife of an immigrant, the wife of an just cause, shall be liable to a not exceeding cohabits or 1.mlawfolly harbours immigr&IJt who has left her husband without penalty or to imprirnnment, labour, for any months, or to both the penalty prisonment, sequent of a misdemean accol·dingly: twenty-four hard three term not exceeding and, on a second or any sub­ offence; shall be deemed guilty with or without and im­ doll2rs our and be punishable Provided that no one shall be convicten.
for cohabiting with if he establishes of the magistrate or under this section the wife of an immigrant to the satisfaction court before whom he is tried, wife was deserted that the husband compelled his house, or that the cohabitation with the knowledge husband.''

by her husband, or her to leave was of the and consent that the In other words, they protect their of other own but not the daughters men.

That I think is an unfoir and \\Tong thing.


I am sure I am going to be a very unpopular man among the pundits and moulvis as a result of what I have mid; but truth is truth and it will stand the test of time.
I am glad my friend (Mr. Sugrim Singh) spoke of the grounds for divorce under the Indian Labour Ordinance; that if there is miscon­ duct a party can take his or her case to the magistrate who is empQwered Thoxe provisions are put there for from their native a people uprooted country and brought here and not for those of u� born here and who rub shoulders with the other races and with comider ourselves equal citizens all.
I claim that the provisfons of the may remain Indian Labour Ordinance in force as long as there are people here who are entitled fits, but there is no s1uch obligation for the youn�er generation.

to thefr bene­ 2737 Marriage ( A'mdt.)

Bill 21ST JUNE, 1957 Adjournment 2738 [Mr. Gajraj] how Mv few words have indicated I feel in favour of this Bill.

strongiy I feel it is a great step forward for Hindoos and Muslims when their re­ spective religion inferior ianity.

sihould _ ment appreciates as !


)Ot Christ­ to the State religion, I think it is something they be proud of, that this Govern­ is accepted and acknowledges.

to this Government wis;h to put forward any proposals the Government, would be willing to them.

This Bill is what we need and I have no hesitation ehould grasp it with both in saying that we hands.

to give consideration The Chief Secretary: I adjourn to Tuesday.
move that Council If at any time the Hindu and Council adjourned to 2 p.m. on Muslim sections of the community Tuesday, 25th June, 1957.