Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698077716217.pdf (Guyana)
9!)

Mernbers Present -� LEGISLA'I'JVE LEGISLArrrVE COUNCIL.

inated).

.

CODNCIL Sugar Estate Wnrlcers 100 The Hon.

J. W. Jackson, (Nom­ ·7 I I Friday, 2nd June, 1944.

The Hon.

T. Lee, (Essequibo River).

The Hon.

H. N. Critchlow, (Nom­ inated). '

�:.

· ... ' t __ • :,· :�e Council met at 12 nfon, His , :exi.

;e!lency .

.

. '

'.

· �1fiem K.C.M.G., •Chair.

Sir Gordon President, in the the Governor, .

The Hon.

A. M. Edun, (Nom­ inated).

The Clerk read prayers.


ti I PRESENT: The President, His Excellency the K.C.M.G.

Governor, Sir Gordon Lethem, The minutes of the meeting held on Thursday, printed read and confirmed.

1st June, 1944, as taken as and circulated, were :,,· i ORDER OF THE DAY ---.

SUGAR ESTATE WORKERS ADVISORY The· Hon.· the Colonial Secretary, COMMITTEE REPORT.

Mr. W. L. Heape, C.M.G.

The Hon.

the Attorney-General, Mr. ·-'· E. 0.

Pretheroe, M.C., K.C.

Mr. JACOB asked and the COLONIAL SEGR1ETARY laid over .
to the follo,ying replies questions:- The Hon.

the Colonial Treasurer, .Mr.

E. F. Mc David, C.B.E.

The Hon.

E. G. Woolford, O.B.B., K.C.

(New Amsterdam).

The Hon.

F. J. Seaford, North).

< Georgetown C.B.E.

The Hon.

C. V. Wight, (Western · Demerara).

'.."'-( The Hon.

J. I.

De Aguiar (C�ntral (}pemerara).

-� ... ,f The Hon.

M. B. G. Austin, (Nominated).

O.B.E., Q.-1.
O.B.E., Q.-1.

ln view of the fact tha.t the given in the report Estate Workers will Govern­ of workers, · of Advis­ the Commissioner a statenrnnt do not relate to factory and/or statistics the Suga.1· ory Committee particularly all classes ment request of Labour to prepnrc from the records Sugar Factories tion of this Honourable which should be incorporated with the follow­ his 1943 report, for thn t.wo periods ing· particulnrs from 1st January, 1943, to 30th June, ,a,nd from 1st Jnly to 31st December.
of the seventeen for the informa­ Council in 1943:- The Berbice), The Western (a)Total acres of.

sugar-cane reaped on.

each Est�te?

(h) Total tons of sugar-C'ane ground in each factory?

{c) Total rlnys each fnctrJi:-y operated?

(d) Total actual weeks each operated?

(any quarter to be converted into and half week we13k).

(e)Total hours ea.ch factory operated?

each w,-1ek (f) Average 1-iours P.<1,ch facto.·y 011erate d?

1 I ~ f t I I 101 Sugar Estate Worlce?·,q 2 JUNE, 1\)44 Co-op.
C. Ba111c Bill 102 ·(g) Average number of male workers employed in each factory each clay?

(h) Average numner of female in each worlrnrs employed factory each week?

A.-3.

Government Committee con~iders that ln(!

its duties performed satisfactorily and accepts the finct ings containect in the Report.
CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT BANKS BILL, Hl44 (i) Average number of male in the female workers em- and ployed following classes of piece work: -to transport cut, sugar-cane field from to factory each wgek, and each sex separately?

load, and (j) Total tons manufactured in each factory?

of and su.isar bagged 1 k) Average sugar tons bagged in each factory dur ing each week the factory actually operated?

of (1) To-tnl tons of :.mgar thrown away in juice which was not converted into sugar from each factory?
The Council resolved itself Committee Bill clause by clause:- to consider t.he into following ,I "A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to cdh to solidate and amend the law relating Co-operative Credit Banks."

Clause 4-Constitiiticn o,f Board.

Mr. De AGUIAR: I have a slight amendment to suggest in respect of sub-clause (4) that the quorum shculd formed by four members instead be the five.
In view of the fact that cf Board will consist of seven members meetings might fall through if more than two members are absent.

Q.-2.

Will Government request the Com missioner of Labour to make early arrangements to collect the inform,1- tion mentioned in question 1 as from the begin.

'li.ng of this year so that his yearly this report wiH information in futur1;1?

include i Mr. SEAFORD : agree with that.

I spoke to the Attorney-General about in favom· of reducing it.
'rhe Chairman always has a casting vote.

it and he was A.-1.

& 2: The preparation of the report of the Department of Labour for 1943 has been concl11ded but the statistics desired by the Honour able Member have been noted and the Commissioner of Labour will inclusion in bear for in mind future reports such in formation is within 11is power~ to as collect and is prqper for inclusion in rE'ports of his Department.

the annual it Q.-3 .

• perfflrmed i ts.


Is Government satisfiec1 that th e duties Committee sn tisfactorily and that the statis tics and conclusions in t he report coulcl be accep-tecl as reliable when the Committee stated that its findings-that male and female piece workers actunily perfo1·meo 2.3 d,ays and 1.45 day's work p-er week are based on the approximate average number the average number of approximate days worked per week vide para~ graph 11 of the report?
of workers respectively in 1943 - and I think Mr. WOOLFORD : to form a qu.crum.

In it would be best to have an uneven the number administration of loans the members the Board may be divided on Lhe c,f amount and the nature ot the security.

You may increase the membership, the quorum should be an uneven but number.

, .. substituted for The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ; !

It is perfectly true that in the orig'iNtl draft the qnorum was four, but as fa) as I am concerned I havf:: no objection four being five.
tG the absence of specific prov1:,1on In the Chairman will not have a casting vote.

We can give effect to the sug·ges tion by substituting fonr for five ir sub-.clause ( 4) and adding a new suh to provide that the Chairma~ clause castini shall have an original and a \>Ote.

103 Co-011.

C. Banlcs LEGISLA'l'IVE COUNCIL (Consolidation) Bill 104 (3) Mr. LEE: With respect to sub- I move that an Elected clause Member shall be the Chairman of the Board.
I am a member of the Advirnry Committee on which the suggestion was made and it found favour.

If Hn Elected Member is appointed Chair man of the Board he wou ld have to answer electors at every General Election as to the work he has done.

An Elected Member should have greater reponsibility with respect I t0 the lending of money to people.

move that the Chairman of the Board shall be an Elected Member of this Council nominated by the Governor.
to his The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I rise to oppose that amendment which ende:wourecl to forestall yesterday I in the absence of the hon.

Member.

The hon.

Member is very anxiou::1 that an Elected Member of this Conncil shall be Chairman of this particular Board, and I was aware of the fact from the Committee, that he had advocated that particular proposition at a meeting of the Agri culture Department Advisory Commit- tee.

I repeat now what I said yester day.

The hon.


Member is presuming that this Council, both now and in future, will always have four members capable of managing a Bank.

He may be right or he may be wrong.

the report of I think JACOB: To a point of Mr. the Attorney correction.

General misunderstood what I said I never suggested that the yes terday.

whole Board should be composed of Elected Members.

That was not my yesterday and I do nott suggestion the think suggestion of hon.
Member who has moved the nmendment.

it is the I The ATTORNEY-CrnNRRAL : accept what the hon.

MemGer ha5; ,aid.

What I say now applies to rnem bership of the Board and still more so to the Chairmanship cf the Board.

that it was I of inconceivable rema rked yesterday the House that is unthinkable.

is composed of 24 of recom Commons would pass a Bill that one-half of the Court mending of the Bank of England should be Members of the House of Commons.

The Bank of It.
The Bank of It.

England Court, which is a Board of Directors, the best financial brains they can get in stability England, and the financial of fact the country depends on the that they have the very best financial brains in the country on that Board.

The members of the Board select the Governor and naturally aippcint as Governor the mRn who they them selves consider has the best financial standi ng among themseh-es.
and than 6 per cent., These Banks are in · a worse position than the Bank of England which can alter its rate of interest at will.

These Banks borrow money from Government at interest not exceeding 3 per cent.

lend money at so not less that they will never have more t han 3 per cent.

to play with.

Any Bank which has a 3 per cent.

margin to work on has to do extraordinarily good busines,., otherwise it is bound to I do not say that this Council fail.
cannot produce members and a Chair man now, but you have just widened the franchise and a General E lection is not very far away, ;:i,nd one cannot guarantee what the l'!onstltution of this Council will be in a very short space of t,ime.

It may easily happen that no member has knowledge to be Chairman of the Board.

On the other hand there may be one or t~o mem bers who have the knowledge, but this Bill suggests that we play for safeiv.
I do not suppose that the prese~t Director of Agriculture claims any particular knowledge of banking bt;t he has this asset: that for a g-reat many year•& he has operated these verv · BankR.

a last time think 14 of them went the It is suggested t!iat very bad war and I into E'anks thi·ough liquidation.
He has pulled through the B,rnks · went after The ·I I J 1 105 Co- 07J: C. Bank.~ 2 JUNE, 1944 (Conso-Uclation ) Bill 106 11e should have a number of experts appointed to the Board to advise him, and that he, with his knowledge of lmw the Banks operate now, should eontinue as Chn.irman.

"ft is no small to a Ba nk to have a man as a~set Chairman who has successfully carried en during the past 12 or 14 years.

He knows the staff who are operating tl1ese Banks.


are quite a There number of Brmks, and l suggest that the material advantag-e, the f inancial advantage to be gained J:,y h aving the Director of Agriculture as Chairman is very s ubs tantial.

~ for information Apart from that there is another definite advantage in h aving an offi cial member as Chairman.
He has the whole machinery of hi;,; Department for the purpose of convening meetings and producing the purpose of keeping the members of the Board informed of what is happening.

If you appoint an Elected Member as Chairman h e either has to use his own personal staff to keep in touch with members or he the to furnish Director of Agriculture is There the h im.

no in and fo r view of the diff icult fin:mcial position we are about to face in a few short years' time I suggest that we should play for safety.
We cannot go wrong with a man wh o has had experience, but we are apt to go wrong if we pnt a new man who has n ot the n eces,rn.rv experience th~ n P.cessary qualifications.

staff provision and p robably not to get that h a;; fo r The CHAIRMA N r_to '.V1r.

Lee) .

Are you moving a n a mendment ?

Mr. LEE: Yes, sir-"that the Ch airman of the Board shall he an Elected Member."
According to the Bill the Boa rd sh all consist of certain members, one of whom shall be the It doe,; n ot Director of Agr iculture.

say that the Governo r has not the right to appoint member s of the communit.y to b e members of the Board.

It g iver; the Governor the right to nominate the r I L staff of best people to serve as members of the Board, and I f eel sure Your Excellency is not going to choose any and every I person who has no experience.
the s ubmit to that you have right the public or appoint members of Members of this Council in whom you repose confidence with respect to the investment of public funds.

I noti.ce that the Chan-man of the Advi,;0ry the the Committee h as Department a t his di sposal with the concurrence of the Director.

Similarly, if he was appointed Chairman of the Board he would continue to have the If Government services of the staff.

is n ot in favour of my proposal I would s uggest that of the seven member ~.
of four shoukl be Elected the Board only Members of desire to see Eleded Members shouldering responsibility.

The trend in England and elsewhere that representatives of the people should shoulder more responsibility.

this Council.

My is is He The ATTORNEY-GENERAl,: I do not desire to play Jack-in-the-box with the hon.

Member who makes the grossest misstatements.

says t hat Elected Members are here to be responsible for public money.
So they are, but he assumes that these Banks They are are run on public funds- not; they are run on private capital.

They are the property of the share holders and have nothing to do ·with public money or Elected Members of this Cou ncil.

These Banks are sa t is fied t ha t the Director of Agriculture has in the past and trusted service, and I suggest that we might take their view rather than the mistaken entirely misconceived view put fo rward by the hon.

Member.
Member.

advances for the Government makes Ba nks repay the amount o ut those advances, and standing is very small indeed.

to start.

The Banks r endered good and Mr. LEE: I am sorry that I have been accused of a misstatement when in clause 2l (I ) it is stated ,~ 107 Co-op.

C. B,a.nb LEGISLATIVE Cmmcn, (CousolidaUon) .Bill 108 "A loan or advance from public funds shall not be made t.o any h ank which this Ordinance."

n,ot registered under , is What does that infer?


It means that money is going to be advanced from public funds.

~ Mr. DeAGUIAR: Will the hon.

Member read clause 7?

is not Mr. LEE: That is quite true.

I am not saying that the constitution of the people them the Banks selves, but when they need money they go have I do have know whether made myself perfectly clear.

Don't the funds of the Banks come from the pub lic funds of the Colony?

to Government.

to not I The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: No.


Mr. LEE: Aren't they given loans by the Government·t figm·es which The ATTORN EY-GE:KERAL: I the have before me themselves and Banks have put up they amount to an enormous sum.

Last year the amount ·.

'la~ $1 !i5,712 which is many times c;ver the total amount advanced by Government fo r yea rs.

The overwhelming bulk of the people.

fund s Government advances are refunded.


private funds The total amount of a million dollars adds up to over half while total amount advanced by Government is $89,742 which will be repaid in the ordinary cour se of things within 12 month&.

to private belongs t he Mr. JACOB : I think this Council is entit led to better information from In Your the Government Excellency's Review you made the following statement on page 14 :- side. "

The busines.s of the Co-operative Credit B·an ks extend.
They a.re now indebted in the sum Qf loans from pu blic funds $89,742.8 6 for a sub s tantial i111::rease within the vast four years.

continues to I j for "Acting the past the Banks also made " In addition, this $28,,826.32 loans granted by loans made to Rice years four Growers dur ing through reaping, hag g ing a nd t ransporting their padi total ,i s out $101,.190.46.

1Of lh e slanding.

The L egislative Council Food Production through Committee are recov-ery.
these Banks w,ith a view to c,f Mr. f:dv1ce on the Frederic Benham, '.E'conomic Adviser for Development to a nd ·welfare in the West Ind i es, and in keeping with views put forward by t he Director of Agriculture, p roposals further have been made through expansion of credit these Banks on easier t erms and the making of larger loans.

To g'i ve effect to Mr. Benham's r ecommendati ons in this connection a.

B ill i-s now before Legislative Council."


the facilities the Comptroller for Yesterday the Attorney-General when replying to my comments on this Bill, made the vague gtatement that .

considerable sums of money have been I should like to know what advanced.

''considerable a s ums" mean--.

:half million dollars or a hundred thousand dollars?

Merely saying considerable sums is no7- sufficient.

Par.
Par.

18 of the report for 1937 says : - "18 The number of members who were debtors to the Banks at the end of 1913-7 was 2,793.

These owed loans interest amounting to $80,42,5.3\l and amountin g to $4,998.88, making a total of $85,424.27 outstanding.

Of the total amount of loans outstanding $&0,94~ .51 loans in arrear, while t h e represented whole amount of interest was overdue,'' the that business of In other words, t he Banks owed public funds $85,424 in 1937.
Your Excellency's Review issued a few days ago puts the figure at $89,942, a dif ference of $4,000.

Yet I see st atements made t he Co-operative Cr edit Banks continues to extend," "a substantial increase" ;,nd It is well that we words have the fig ures.

I cannot understand ·why these vague .statements are made.

referred to public funds My and said t hat public fu nds are not in volved ; it is a g-ros~ misstatement.
It is rathcl' liar.sh t o use such words, and when th~y are friend the Attorney-General like those.

I ~ ~ I 109 Co-flP.

C. Banfcs 2 ju:NE, 1944 (Consoticlation) Bill 11() used from the official side we have the right to use them as well.

What.

are the facts?

The Attorney-General t he Bank of made a comparison with understand why England.

such a comparison should be made.

I cannot The ATTORNEY-GENERAL : I heard it for the first time.

Mr. JACOB: I have the news- report here.


This is what the paper Attomey-General said:- shattered i11 very " If, for instance, "c\Jiember.s of Par liament with no banking experience undertook to run the Bank of England it would be little time.

Similarly, if Memr,ers of Council with no experience in banking were run the bank it would appointed to also be shattered in quick time.
Peo ple with experience in running s11ch banks were found in Insurance Com panies and Government must have the full l)ower to strongest possible Board."

and Building Soc:iE,ties, appoint the in of are failure as his hands a member intended pr imarily little or no use to t hem .

H e has not helped them in any way, and if he is they to be in charge of these Banks to be a are going in I wish to say he should the past.
the Banks' be the Chair Board but certainly not man, because they are going to be led to miserable fail ure as in the past.

I take it that these Banks to increase the production of food of eve·r y kind.

I am accused of being personal to one or two Officers.

The Director of Agriculture has been very friendly w ith me and I am very friendly with him and hope still to be.

He and I were sent at Government's expense to Suriname the look after the r ehabilitation of to Coffee constituency.
We went and returned and agreed that help ought to be given and he wonld recommend g iven.

help the Coffee industry my con Besides stituency to is one of the best places build up a Citrus Fruit industry.

industry in my that be taxpayers' money to have co-operative credit, Why should Members of Parlia ment run the Bank of England?

I do it is run by · the Imperial not th ink Government.

I think it is owned by private people.


These Banks will not be owned by private people but sub stantially owned by the taxpayerg of loan money.

the Colony who will Without the these Banks would not be _operating at all.

I want to suggest in all seriousness that if Government wants to help poor people it must have representatives of the people I speak on behalf of on the Board.

I am not a member my constituents.

of any fraternity.
of any fraternity.

I am not here to abuse the Civil Ser vice, but I am not in l maintain that Government officials could be representatives of the public as well, but if they form a fraternity and one chooses to defend another and hide his faults it is not my fault if I I speak on behalf of my constituency.

the have specific majority of my constituents t hat.

the Director of Agriculture has been of the Civil Service instructions from fraternity.
The CHAIRMAN: \Ve are deal.ing with clause 2 and there is no need to hea1· about the Coffee in<lustry.

Mr. JACOB: I take it the Constitu tion of the Board will deal with these industries.

The CH Ain.M.&.N: The hon.

Mem ber is not oppos ing the Director be1ng a member.

What he wants, and I under stand his colleague wi,-;hes, is that a certl'.in number of the members of the Board be E lected Members of this Council.

You suggest that four sh{)uld be Elected Members of t he Council.

Mr. LEE : Yes.
Mr. LEE : Yes.

the The CHAIRMAN: That is amendment to which you are speaking?

Mr. JACOB : Yes; we are speak ing to clause 4.

The CHAIRMAN: As to whether four or seven should b e Elected lVIcm- ill Co-op.

C. Banks LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL (Consolidation) Bill 112 bers.

We can leave the Director as you will have another chance at the Director under sub-clause (3) .

Let us get through with sub-clause (1).

Mr. JACOB : I do not think .it is fair to stifle discussion.

I was attempt ing to reply to the hon.


the Attorney General.

If you rule that I should speak I have nothing to on sub-clause ( 1) say on that.

the Director of Agriculture should be a member of the Board and I shall take my seat.

I maintain that Mr. LEE: Perhaps I have not made myself clear.

In my constituency at the Co-operative Credit Banks Leguan so and W akenaam were mismanaged that they had to go into insolvency.

I do plead with you and to resuscitate them.


V{e Government want more feel the Banks this money from public funds should be produc tive.

If the Elected Members take thefr duties to heart they would realize that they are obligRted to see that this money is properly spent.

I am certain that given they is• carried out will properly.

production.

lent see that duty responsibility t he to I to say on Mr. DeAGUIAR: I think that one can be in sympathy with the general request of hon.
Member s for Elected representation on various Boards, hut I do ask them to consider very care fully the est ablishment of this p11rtic t1lar Board and not press the point in the way they are doing.

P erhaps I may be allowed t his is ;no question that tthere general doubt about it prinia facie these Banks be1ong to the people.

If not, then the should word be "co-operative" The pri.mary r emoved from· the Bill.
object in co-operative methods of banking :rnd generally to assist them in the i11rlus tries develop.

That must he the back~round of the It i~ true the whole of this thing.

from Government is to educate these people advances money anxio1.1,: to they are - --- " -~ - -~ time to t ime, and it may be true that is the amount outstanding last year only $89,000.

I h ave quoted that to show that Government has merely r endering a little a ssistance to been The figures quoted are these Bank,s.

cnly balances.
cnly balances.

The hon.

Member knows what I mean.

They do n(/t.

by any means represent the actual amount of money advanced by Government from time to t ime.

Mr. JACOB : May I rise to a point of correction?

I do not know if the hon.

Member understood me yester day.

I gave the loans granted during 1!

)37 as amounting to $30,962, a,; per page 4 of this Report.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Wh~ the hon.

Member quoted was loans made by the Banks to members and not by Government to the Banks.

should thing.
should thing.

He The COLONIAL TREASURER : t thought the hon.

Member was much more informed on the l1istory of the whole remember that the Government h,1d a policy of lending these Banks, every year sum;:; of money, but then there came f inan cial difficulty and lending ceased for the time being.

But shortly aft er thr· p·ut I myself outbreak forward to Government urging that we should resume lendin1' Co-operative Cr edit Bani{s money year Immediately that policy was by year.
accepted there was a strong pressure the Director of Agriculture from asking loa11s.

Hon.

Members will remember that for the last .t wo years we had excess votell of fairly considerable sums.

of war proposals to obtain these Mr. JACOB: May I interrupt.

to ask what ''fairly considerable sums'' means'?

Will the hon.

Member name the sums?

The COLONIAL 'l'REASURER: They are in the Estimates.

The point is, the Banks themselves have been asking for money to the extent requir - ·1 l , 113 Co-op.
C. Banks 2 JUNE, 1944 (Consotida,tion) Bili 114 3-:ope of extended the ed and those Members uf the Execu tive Council who dealt with the loans will recall that in not a single insb.nce an application has been refused, The Banks t.hei r activities ;i,nd are now lending m<•ney for d iffe r ent pu rpose,;, and a ll the for has been granted money asked them.

I cannot give the; exact fig ures now, btit it is perfectly easy to f;nd out.

If the hon.
If the hon.

Member give me some time I would let him kno,v how advanced much p11blic money was during the c;:m assure you it was a considerable ~um indeed.

last three years.

I f I .

remarks I M1·.

DeAGUIAR : I have not yet have concluded the few actually risen to make.

What I want to emphasize is the co-operative spirit.

I want to convey to hon.

Members is in the mind of Government, what and I the invit e their attention to the members person nel of the Board .

Banks.
Banks.

the Board of presen t refer you If person nel you have the Director of Agriculture as Chairman, one Elected Member of t his Council and three other individuals.

Unrler t his Ordi n ance three there a r e five members of of th is Counc.i l but are actually member3 of the Banks in the districts.

After all it must be remembered that these Banh operate in the districts.

are not Member s these the of to whom To a Mr. JACOB: point of cor rection !
I do not think it is correct tc• say they m·e in districts.

Give t he names of t he parties and let us kn0w where t hey Hre.

Mr. DeAG UIAR: 'The Rev.

Mr. Dyett- I do not know if he livep, in The hon.

Member mw Georgetown .

enlighten me.

The last time I hea rd of him he was on the Corentyne Coast.

M1·.

J. Wills- --a:; fa r as I know he is a I do not '.mow whether Buxtonian .

the hon.

Member t hinks he is a lawyer.

Mr. JACOB: Mr .

.J.

L. Wills is a Barrister-at Law.

the hon.


Member will not mislead t h is Coanril.

I h:me Mr. DeAGUIAR : I think lVIr.

J .

L. Wills is another nrnn ~-t Buxt cn.

Then Mr. C. Farnum.- Mr. JACOB: He is in George town.

Mr. DeAGUTAR : Pardon me, he I only mrntion t hat resides at Kitty.

to show it is not only the lawyer mem ber s· bu,siness.

I do not know if hon.
Member s who have spoken have shares i n t hese Banks and, perhaps, may vrnnt t o claim repr esentation on t hem, but I say t he:se Banks ar e intended for t he people and I am going to ask you espe cially when the time comes for appoint ing member s of t he Board of these Banks that due r egard be paid to the possible representation of t he people in the d istricts because the advice and the information and the aNsistance you can get from the people in t he districts where these Banks ope•r ate a re going to be ver y valuable indeed fo r the suc cessful operation of the Banks.
As l said at the beginning, one is in sym pathy with the gener al question of on having Boards but this is one of the cases in which, I think, a certain amount of latitude should be given in t he selec tion of members and t he appointment this Board not of member s restr icted to as many as four E lected Member s. representat ion E lected on Mr. AUSTIN : With your permis s ion, sir, I think the Council ought to congratulate itself on the pr esene~ of a Member who is not very often pres ent and frequent ly has to get some of his colleagues to assh;t him in asking quest ions and tabling petit ions.
Mr. L EE: To a point of order !

th e Those remark.s are hu rled to do with Has that anything debate?

at me.

I prefer to be honest.

11.5 Co-ov.

C. Banb LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ( C onsol·id<ition) Bill 116 t he them?

before somebody (laughter) .

to get for from my colleagues Mr. A US TIN : Apparently I have I touched they understand do not know where he belonged to.

I understand he is the Member for E sse I do not know quibo River (Mr. Lee ) .
if anybody thinks not, but is he really doing service to the 9eoplE' he desires t0 h elp by bri nging these purile matters for ward, or is he endeavou,r fo ur Officials ing who probably will have to investigate the.se matters a wee bit more information am inclined to t hink that in this debate this mornin,g which has t aken such a long t ime we are straying away from helpful views on behalf of those indi viduals in the outlying districts whom cannot see we would wish to help.
I that we are hel.ping anyone at all by debating matters in the way in which it is being done this morning by various Members.

·we do not all travel about the country as much as we would like to do, but we do know a nd realise t h at, a s the hon.

the Attorney-General, I think, s uggested, the elections are coming on and the re is a u,<;eful way, perhaps a personal way, of propaganda whi ch may be of service t o- I M.r .

JACOB: T o a point of order!


is the I do n ot speaking on the question before Council.

t hink the h on.

Member T he CHAIRMAN : t he h on.

Member may, perhaps, address himself mor e direct.

I think, Mr. AUSTIN : That comes under the head of propaganda.

Mr. LEE: What I would like this Council to realise-it h as been m y experience and I give .

it as I have found it-that when a Government Official is made Chairman of a Board, the Co-operative especially Credit Banks, this is wh at h appens.
I know of several instances wh ere they go t o the financier of t he district and say '·Give the Bank an advance so a,; to g ive Mistress So and So this money.

that of a legitimate l rcque:-it know the Bank:-.

is born·ower, but telI It .

of these the n ot financiers to lend and t hey do not lend.

I do not want that to occur.

I am not speak ing about politics.

If anyone wants my seat in t his Council he can take it.
This Ordinance is especialiy provided to protect the people by giving them loans on s ecurity at a reasonable rate interest.

T he Elected Member s of the public w ho are responsi ble should be appointed on this Board.

If you do not want Elected Members on They are it then it is left r esponsible and for should ;;ee that the loans are given t o agriculturists wh o want them.
to yo u. t hese loans to The CHAIR1\1AX : I think we know what your arguments a r e. that banks Mr. SEAFORD: I th ink it is a the throughout recognised principle should British E mpire have nothing to do with politics and politicians sh ould not have anything t o do with banh.

I do feel that if Govern into ment is going to bring politics the t.hese Banks and make the Ba nks conce rn of poli ticia ns, it would be a 1<rave misfortune for this Colony.
Mr. EDUN: I want to be clear on I t hink the discu,ssion was th is point.

more or less on the constitution of the Board.

As I understand it, i t means tb:it there vvill be several small Banks in the districts and t hi::; Board as a centr al authority will be the guiding hand in giving loans to these Banks If it is a co-operative system, then we ought to think more and more of the For question of economic democracy.
that reason I think t he question of an E lected Memb er as Chairman of this Board comes within the purview of economic democracy.

We preach so mnch about it all the time, bu t we do n0t see it here.

The reason for the m isapprehension, sir, is this .

Because a certain Government Official for whom definite statutory obligations ar~ being put should be the Chairman of this Board, the this country.

If mind of everyone in that i~ actuating I I 1 J 117 Co-op.

C. Banks 2 JUNE.
C. Banks 2 JUNE.

1944 (Consohdation) Bill 118 financing of Is it because he is we are to be guided by the experience of the past, then surely this Council ought to agree that it should be left entirely in the hands of the Governor of the Colony to say who should be the the Chair1man of this Board.

Why the Director of Agriculture must be Chairman?

to ascertain that these loans are good and the the security is good?

No, sir ; question is the expansion of the system of co-operative small people.
When the hon.

the Attorney General spoke about the Members of Parliament becoming Governors of the Bank of England, I thought the com parison so odious as not to talk about it.

I agree with the hon.

Member for Georgetown North (Mr. Seaford) that politics should not be· brought into this issue at all, but this is not a question of politics.

It is a question of econo-· mies and economic democracy.

The idea is to encourage the people to make their own banks and to go to this Cen tral Board for assist~nce.
If we are going to have the same old system foisted on us of having Officials whom the whole country distrusts, we will be prolonging the situation, and it will be agreeing with certain statements made here.

We ought not to discuss the little items but clarify the atmosphere.

for Central When the hon.

Member Demerara and boards he was confusing the whole subject.

I do not know what he was leading us to, whether banks or boards.
The question before the Council is the Constitution of the Board and who should be the Chairman.

spoke about banks The CHAIRMAN : The amendment will come under sub-clause (3).

We are on sub-clause (!

)-Constitution of the Board.

Mr. EDUN: I think four members of the Board ought to be Elected Mem bers of Council if we are aiming at It is no use democracy everywhere.

talking about it and not doing it.


r r Mr. JACOB: I have the report of the Rice Farmers (Terms of Tenancy) L Committee (Le.Cfislative Council Paper No.

14 of 1942), a very valuable report signed by Mr. E. Mortimer Duke as Chairman.

It makes certain specific and definite references to these Banks.
Paragraph 24 says: ''The Committee has Ileen informecl the pro.orietor of a certain rice that commanding plantation has such a the influence in the management of district Co-op6rative Credit Bank that he can, and does, dictate whether a Joan shall be granted by the credit bank to one of his tenants or not.

The manage_ nlE.lnt of a Co-operative Credit Bank should not be .subservient to the interests rice or the whims., of a proprietor of lands.
The prnprietor of the Plantation did not avail himself of thEJ opportunity to give evidence before us, and so we do not know what defence he has to the chargec• laid against him.

\Ve recommend that administrative measures be adopted to put an end to any situati.on whereby the self-interest of any propriE:ltor of rice lands may conflict with his duty to to a Co-operative Credit Bank an,d persons who apply for to the bank loans.''

The CHAIRMAN : What has that got to do with the amendment?
Mr. JACOB: That r eplies effec tively to the remarks of the hon.

Mem• ber for Central Demerara that people from t he country districts should be on this Board and equally as effectively the remark,- of the hon.

Member to says for Georgetown North who politics it.

We had private interest domina ting and prejudicing these Co-op<'!ra· tive Credit Banks the past, and I do not think we should perpet uate that in the future.
should not come into in Question "That the words four of whom shall be Elected Members of the Legislative Council be inserted in sub clause ( 1) " put, and the Cammi ttee divided, the voting being as follows:- For: Messrs. Edun, Lee, Jacob and Peer Bacchus.-4; Against: Messrs. Critchlow, Jackson, Gonsalves, Austin, DeAguiar, C. V. the Wight, Seaford, Woolford, lHl Co-op.

C. Eanlcs L~GISLA'l'IVE CouNCIL ( Consolidation) Bill 120 Colonial Treasurer, General and tary.-11.
the Attorney the Colonial Secre Amendment lost.

The CHAIRMAN: Why such em phasis on the Elected Members to the > exclusion of Nominated Members?

For instance, a N ominatecl Member who claims to represent the workers on the sugar estates had been excluded.

Mr. LEE: I was thinking of the future Council.

Sub-Clause (3)--Chairman of the Board.

Mr. LEE: I move as an amend ment that the words "An Unofficial Member of the Legislative Council'' be substituted for the words "The Direc tor of Agriculture.''
transactions• to be mixed Mr. GONSALVES: I do not know what is the reason for the amendment.

I was just saying to my hon.

friend on my left (Mr. Austin) that I think the proper pernon to run it should be the Colonial Treasurer, but his hands are so full with Rice and other matters that, perhaps, he would not .

like the Banks' up with Rice.

I do think that if not the Colonial Treasurer then the Deputy Cc.Ionia!

Treasurer is the proper person to be Chairman of th is c-oncern.
It is a I am inclined question of financing.

to think that the Colonial Treasurer is the more proper person to be Chair man of Boards of this kind.

The • Director of Agriculture is going to be on the Board having regard to a previ ous sub-clause just passed, and any assistance or guid.ance in regard to whether applicants are really farmers or are engaged in industries can be supplied to the Chairman.

I do suggest for the consideration of the hon.


Mem ber who moved the amendment whether he does not think the Colonial Treas urer should be made Chairman of the Board.

the some of Treasurer, mistake The COLONIAL TREASURER: I thank the hon.

Member for the honour but to offered there in is some Members.

the minds For instance, the hon.

Member who has just taken his seat spoke about banking.
This is not a Bill to create a bank but deals with Co-operative is a Credit Banks of which large number, and the management of those Banks is vested in Committees.

Each Bank has its own Committee.

The hon.

Member referred to critic isms of the Rice Tenants Committee and the actions of certain members of Committees.

The report of that Com mittee referred to the District Com mittees and not to the central control ling body.

Therefore his remarks had no real reference to the Board 2t all.
there of Banks, The function of the Board is to the control registration cancellation of registration, and to make rules for their management and so on.

If Members would look at clause 25 they would see that the Committee of a Bank will have the power to make loans not exceeding $480, but when application is made for a loan exceed ing that sum the Committee has to r eport to the Board Which will investi gate the matter and direct the Com mittee what to do.

The Board is not a Bankers' Board.


Its main function will be applications for foans.

investigate to The duty of the Chairman of the Board is not strictly that of a finan cial officer but of a man who ha,; wide knowledge of the circumstance,; of the people who are going for loans.

It is primarily an agricultural problem and t hat is why the Director of Agriculture has been Chairman of the for Board and been t he Chairmanship of the new Board.
recommended to apply Mr. GONSALVES: Clause 15 defines the powers of the Board and gives it a certain amount of control of the management of any Bank.

The Board will not have direct control of 1 -l l 121 Co-op.

C. Banb 2 JUNE, 1944 (Consolidation) Bill 122 the management of the Banks but will have power to assume control of any Bank in certain circumstances.

save Mr. DeAGUIAR: It might the time of the hon.

Member if he would read s ub-clause (5) .


~ I agree with what the Treasurer has i:;aid about t.he Director of Agri think culture but I that now still that the matter has reached a more important stage the Treasurer, as the the Government, financial officer of should be the Chairman of the Board.

I have every confidence in his ability to watch the finances of both Govern ment and the public, and I do not see that an Elected Member could better protect than he.
Although the Board may appear to be a formal Board it has a little more power to its elbow which it can exer cise if the necessity arises.

the public interest The COLONIAL TREASURER There is one thing I would like to add.

I think the Treasurer should be kept in an independant position towards the Board itself.

After all Government is going to advance money to the Board.
Mr. EDUN : I move that sub clause ( 3) of claus e 4 be amended by substituting the words "The Govern nor shall appoint a Chairman" for the words "The Director of Agricul the shall be the Chairman of ture Board and.''

Amendment put, and carried.

Mr. DeAGUIAR: that s ub-clause the substitution of the word "four'' for the word "five.''

I move amended by ( 4) be I Mr. JACOB: in its affair~.

If am opposed to that.


The Board will be composed of people who will take a definite inter they cannot es t attend the meetings they should give up their seats.

From information I have the Board meets very infrequent ly-not I think even twice a year.

that if th is Board is not going to be a dummy Board, and if it is going to take an interest- ~ Mr. JACOB : I have read the Bill I hope the meetings will thoroughly.

fall through and the Governor would take action.


I have a general idea of the work that has been going on.

I am opposed to the number suggested and the suggestion made by the hon.

Mem ber for New Amsterdam (Mr.

Wool ford ) , because four would be too small should be an a number and there I uneven number to form a quorum.

am opposed to any person having two votes.

I think the clause a s printed :should stand.

, not Mr. GONSALVES: I am asking the hon.


Member for Central Demerara ( Mr. DeAguiar) to press his amendment.

As the Director of Agri culture will be Chairman of the Board and since officers of the Government should set an example by attending regularly there should always be a quorum.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: l. have no leaning one way or the other.

In fact in the original draft the num ber was four.

I would ask hon.
I would ask hon.

Mem bers to consider what will h appen if there are a number of Elected Mem bers on the Board and the Council is dissolved?

The Board would disappear.

Mr. JACKSON: I am satisfied that a quorum of five out of seven too large a number.

1 members is think four is a r easonable number .

With r egard to the objection to one man h aving two votes I may point out that the Chairman does not exer cise his casting vote unless there is a ''tie.''

Amendment put, and canied.


The AT'TORNEY-Gt<;NERAL: On behalf of t he hon.

Member for Kew Amsterdam (Mr. Woolford) 1 move that the following new sub-clause (5) be inserted:- 123 Co-op.

C. Banks LEGISLA'rIVE COl'NCIL (Consolidation) Bill 124 7 (5) "The Chairman shall have an orig ina'J and a casting vote."
Mr. JACOB: You will now have the Director of Agriculture and three , other members of the Board sitting ::i.t a table, and the voting being equal the Chairman would exercise his In that way he could casting vote.

certainly support a proposition that may not be approved of by the major ity of members who are absent.

It fa a ve ry dangerous thing and will probably lead to failure.

Mr. DeAGUIAR: hon.

The Member keeps on making- statements that are not correct.

H e speaks of the majority of members.


There are fonr and members present, two vote fo r two against.

The Chairman then uses hil'l casting vote.

Mr. JACKSON: The same thing would occur if there were six mem If three vote for and bers present.

three against the Chairman would exercise h is casting vote.

Mr. JACOB: Yonr Excellency has no casting vote in this Council.

The CHAIRMAN: I have.

no original vote.

I have Mr. JACOB: The Chairman of the Board would be having two vote;;.
He would be in a better position than the Pr~::;ident of this Council.

The CHAIRMAN: It is a matter of practical financing .

• The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Your Excellency is not a Member of this Council.

The Chairman is a member of t he Board.

New 11ub-clause (5) put, and agreed to.

Clause 23 - P u rpos es for whfrh banks ma•• grant loans.

land in orde-r to make I Mr. PRER BACCHUS: I find that no provision has been made in this Bill to assist people to purchase small lots themselves of that independent.
the paragraph insertion of "purchase'' the word between the words "the'' and "main tenance.''

The object is to g ive the small man an opportunity to own a plot of land.

therefore move (a) be amended by l The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: hope the hon.

Member will not press this particular amendment because it goes to the root of the Bill.

If a man wants a loan he has to give secu rity fo1· it, and if the loan is over $480 he has to give security in res pect of im Until he possesses movable property.
that land he cannot give it as security.

.·\ man who wants to buy land to make ' a start with has neither the land nor the money to buy it.

He is a very bad customer the hon.

I may say.

If Member looks at paragraph (b) he will see that Banks may make loans for "the discharge of prior encumbrances on the applicant's land."

Therefore, if a small man who has not any land would go elsewhere and borrow money and buy land he can then get an advance from a Bank on the security of that land.

Mr.
Mr.

PEER BACCHUS : I do not think the Attorney-Gen0ral is conver I see no diffi sant with local practice.

culty in a small man offering a piece of to purchasE' as security for a loan from a Bank.

Both the mortgage and the transport could be passed at the same time.

land he proposes Mr. JACOB: The more I listen to the debate the more I am satisfied that is not intended to help those who i t desire help in a real practical way.
The omissfon of the word "purchase" in this clause of the Bill means that it is intended that these Banks should not compete with private lending com I panies or priva,te moneylenders.

.~ y - - - - - - - - 125 Co-op.

C. Banks 2 JUNE, 1944 (Consolida,tion) Bill i26 recollect quite distinctly the occasion of the f loods in t his Colcny when appli cations were made for large loans, and a Committee was set up to investigate and advance money.

I do not believe the report of that Committee was ever printed.
The whole thing was tu1·ned d0wn because it wonlcl h:we interfered with those people who were doing that kind of business at that time.

Lend ing companie!'.

aclv~nce money at i and 5 per cent.

The whole idea is to main tain a higher rate of interest at these Banks so that private enterprise should have the lead.

This thing is going to be a hopeless failure, and that is why I suggested that the rate of interest these Bank,; should be charged by less, than 6 per cent.
If Government really wants to help the poor man he should be given a chance.

I know hundreds of people who have small sums of money with which they would purchase land and mortgage it to a but of course Government's Bank, advisers are largely interested in the lending companies at the pre,sent t ime, and that is one of the main reasons why that very material word ('pur chase" hHs been left out.
(Mr. Mr. SEAFORD: I am afraid I am going to give the hon Member a bit of a shock when I say that I a.m on the Board of two lending companies and I agree that the money should be lent as suggested by the hon.

Member Peer for Western Berbice Bacchus) .

His Temarks about Govern ment being influenced by those people one can ignore because one know,; the value put on statements he make» in this Council.
One of the lending com I am connected panies with which advanced money the progress of the work being clone, and I am wondering whether a similar method cannot be adopted by t hese I am absolutely in favour of Bank,;.

the clause being amended in such a way as to meet the suggestion.

The hon.

Member said that lending com panies had reduced their interest l':cltes according to t.o 4 and 5 per cent., but as far as I know the rate of interest is still G per cent.
Co-operative For instance I am ' I think it is a very Mr. EDUN: wise amendment.

the holder of 25 shares at $1 in the "V ergenoegen Credit Bank which I have held since 1918, and C that Bank is still · progressing.

If I wanted to buy a piece of land for !

"$300 why shouldn't the Committee · of the Bank for a loan on the to scurity of the land I propose purchase?

With rt.his amendment the Committee would be able to exercise the matter.
but some di,;cretion in to without it t hey would not be able do i::o. I be able to ask Mr. C. V. WIGHT: It is perhaps a wi,ge amendment but I woula suggest an alternative which would have the same effect, and that is to give, power to the Board to purchase land and re-sell it.s memhe1·s on a hire purchase sys-tern.

That perha,ps would.

be a,: safe as one could wish.


to Mr. DeAGUIAR: I hope that no Bank, co-operative or otherwise would agree to lend $300 on a piece of land a borrower proposes to buy for $300 because if it ever attempted to do so it would be certainly heading for bank ruptcy.

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: My amendment would not interfere with the execution of the clause which calls for a certain amount as security.

There i.s a good rleal Mr. DeAGUIAR : I quite appreci- in ate that.

what the hon.
what the hon.

Member has said but I 4 am a little bit doubtful about how we could work it this particular into I do not know if the suggestion clause.

of the hon.

Member for W este,n Esse quibo (Mr. C. V. Wight) would meet it.

When you are lending money on land there are several other things to and be Bt!fore a prior claims encumbrances considered - rates.

like 127 Co-op.
like 127 Co-op.

C. Banks LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ( Consol-idatfon) Bill 128 Co operative Credit Bank lends money to purchase land they will have t0 be very careful about it, and there must be the necessary safeguards in so far as advances by the purchaser and so I think, subject to what the hon.

on.

the Attorney-General says, should suggest that we defer this clause for a little while.

'.fhere is something in the point made by the hon.

Member, and we should try and do something about it.
I Mr. -LEE: I do not think there ean be any doubt about the righteousness of this amendment, and 1 would like to in r espect of mortgages and c·xplain Therefore I do not think trans:fers.

this clause should be deferred but ,;hould be passed today.

Let us ~ay "A'' wants to purchase a piece of lanrl and makes a bargain to do so for $5,000.

He has $2,500 and desires to obtain the balance on a loan from a Co-operative In his application to the Credit Bank.
Hank for th8 loan of $2,500 he has to state definitely for what purpose the money is required, and he states it is trans required to purchase land by port.

When the application goes to the Bank the Bank's valuer is sent to see whether the property is worth if he reports favourably, $5,000 and, Transport then the loan is g-ranted.

i;:i advertised at the same time as the mortgage to the Bank.

think the amendment is a good one and should be inserted.
I Mr. C. V. WIGHT: I suggest that the Board may be entitled to own land.

T see no power here at the moment for the Board to own land.

If a mortgage or a Bill of Sale is · to be foreclosed, where the Ordinance for the Bank to do so and hold the property if it becomes necess ary in case the purchase price is not t he execution what it should be at sale?

the authority under is Mr. LEE: To a point of explana tion !

If the hon.
If the hon.

Member looks at clause 13 of the Bill he would see it It says inte r a/.i a; t here, ·'ft shall have full power t.o purchase, take, hold,.

enjoy, sell, transport and morl gage, invest and otherwise deal with mov- able and immovable property ............ " I think the Bank has power under that clause.

by this country the for Western Berbice The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The hon.

· sugges.tion made :Member (Mr.


Peer Bacchu:-) is one he made twelve months ago when the Bill was first under consideration.

Obviously one of the first things you think of in draft ing a Bill of this sort is that the law is the Roman-Dutch of law.

One of the curious incidences of the Roman-Dutch law is the fact that · the char ges on land go with the land.

that does not law In the English happen.


You may buy land and find that it has debts going with the land a great deal more than the value of the land itself.

You may buy a piece for $100 and have accumn of land htted debts of $150 on it.

That is the reason why at the moment we are giving the Bank this power.

Ceylon has the same law as t he Roman-Dutch experience of faw and Ceylon has Co-operative Banks for a considerably long period.
The curious thing is that the Ceylon Chamber once tried to make that same amendment and it was immediately discarded on the ground that under the Roman-Dutch law \.vhile you may be buying land you are really buying the debts in arrears.

Under the Ceylon Bill no advance of money is allowed land.

the purchnse of There is one other reason to which the hon.

Member has carried my mind Last October when the Bill back.

was introduced I pointed out that.


two Bills a re intended to go hand in hand the Co-operative Credit Banks Bill - and the Land Settlement Bili.

The Land Settlement Bill itself is making provision for advances to obtain plots of land and with this Bill is designed If a peasant to work hand in hand.

tenant desires to obtain his plot of Settlement the Land land under Scheme h ~ will 'be able to do so undei· for j ~ j , ~ ·1 12!l Co-op.

C. Banks 2 JUNE, l!J44 ( C onsoliclation) B'ill mo I admit this one.
that Ordinance and he need not worry with that only applies to the Land Settlement Scheme but it does remove part of the objec tions as a Land Settlement Scheme will affect a large number of people.
In view of the fact that each makes prov1s1on in one part for persons t.o purchase plots of land and that debts in"· this country travel with the land ·whoever the purchaser may be, I do not see why with the small margi n of safety we have got under the Bill we should rush at this amendment and not follow the example of Ceylon which has the same law.

Take the Bill as it stands.


Do not press the amendme:·•.t at the moment until we see how this one works, and if the chances a r e fair we I do agree with the may extend it.

hon.

Member for Essequibo River that if a man has $2,500 and wants t o buy a plot of land for $5,000 there is no reason why you should not lend him $2,500 and take the land as security, but the answer is the debts on the land may exceed $2,500.
You cannot thrust on the Board the for making quite sure the tracing of all It will be wise to charges on the land.

allow the clause to go through as it is now and, if possible, by all means come with the amendmEnt later.

resp.onsibility Mr. LEE : May I enquire from Government whether loans made by these Co-oper ative Credit Banks are not a preferent claim?

Under the ol<l As r egards Ord inance that was so.

accumulated debts the land.


The only debts on any hlnd save and this country, throughout except the towrni, are village rates or sea defences rates or irrigation and drainage rates, and every member of a Bank's Committee is cognizant of the position in his district.

that go with the debts are outstanding The ATTORNEY-GENERAL : Usual ly sea rates and quite defence and village recently drainage and i rrigation n1tes, take preference.

and all debts clue to the Crown.


They all Treasurer can tell you what debts are due to the Crown on t hat dat_e.

The Coionial ~ the Committee can Mr. LEE: What 1 am saying is that when application i., made to the Bank alv.-ays enquire what are the outstanding deb ts.

To deprive the public under this Bill of acqu i ring a small holding will be defeating the end of the Bill, which is to help co-operat ive trade.

I agree with the amendme:nt.


This Rill is intended to meet the needs of the farmers in the acquisition of small property in the co-operat ive spirit.

.. C secur ed .

understand, Mr.

PEER BACCHUS : I am a little bit disappointed, according to the hon.

the Attorney-General's remarks, that creditors in this Colony are not much sfr, I there is no other part of the British Empire that affords a creditor more security than in this Colony in so far as landed property is concerned.
We have not had any difficulty in so far as landed property is concerned and, I trust, if th is amendment is accepted no such difficulty would ar ise.

I would go a little further.

Under t he Regu lations of this Ordinance which, I think, have been alrea<ly framed, an statutory applicant has to make a to his dedaration as indebtedness.
Thet, is a bar to any appli I think, rant asking for a loan to purchase a property and having debts, because he will be interfering with his liberty by making a false declaration.

I do not think that difficu lt.v will arise in practice in a generation.

agreement with the Attorney-General on Mr. C. V. WIGHT: My attention had been drawn to clause 13.

I do not the find myself in the hon.

If we question of encumbrances.


and ,turn Bill clause we see there that a Bank may make the discharge of prior a land encumbrances on the applicant's clause (1) loan for (b) the 23 of 28 to 131 Co-op.

C. Banks LEGTSLATIVE COUNCIL (Consolidation) Bill 132 -1 on the security of a mortgage.

Those of us in pra-ctice know fully well that before a loan is g ranted on mor tgage you have to find out all the eneum brances, whether due to the Cr own or otherwise.
Therefore the Secr etar y of a Loan Bank should have the figure of the debts owing on the property.

I feel that if the Board exercises do a wide and perhaps progressive outlook, clause 13 would meet the very point suggested by the hon.

Member There can be for Wes tern Berbice.

no the loss, as for Cent ral Demerar a if you want to buy a piece of land for $300 and obta ining a loan of $300 on it.
I do not expect from the operation of t his Ordinance as intended, if a person comes along and wants to purchase a piece of land he cannot obtain a loan.

I do hope ther e will be some latitude in the operation of t his Ordinance anri.

it will not keep strictly to the com mercial viewpoint.

'hon.
'hon.

Member suggests, Mr. JACOB: The more I listen to the a r gument on Government side, the more I wonder whether Govern ment endorses the view that all lnnds should be leased r ather t.han purchased and whether an important social prob lem arises later on to a greater extent, the as t hink Anglo-Caribbean Commission.

I you are defeating the object of this Bill, that is if it is not the r eal object to help the people.
the delegates to s tated by Mr. GONSALVES : I have not heard anyone mention it and, perhaps, it is assumed that this clause covers it.

I am wondering whether a purpose is t he lending of money for poultry farming and r earing of stock.

A m an may have a small house and may be sum of money on a able Bill of Sale under clause 28 ( 4) I do not know if under the provision a Bill of Sale will be taken on poultry stock.

should encourage thosl?

people who are minded that way to carry on t heir business.
I to raise a that we think I do just want to say t hat 1 observe from the remarks of the hon.

the Attomey General just now that the only person who can give information as to sea defences rates is the Colonial Treasurer.

I am glad he has mentioned that.

is like simply I would Mr. EDUN: to include this wise amendment.

I do not know if hon.

Members are aware of a system which is in vogue whereby one person collects money from twenty others every week and gives it to one of the number.
They call it box-holding.

There is no question of a promissory note or the exchange of paper ; it is just a ques tion of goodwill among those concerned.

If in t his case you do not include t he purchase of land then .

I think, the idea of talking about land settlement and financing going hand in hand The whole idea of Your Excellency's speech land settlement was based on on finance and land holding.
At Windsor the settlers have a ninety Forest in nine year s the all lands given out on a ninety-nine years or twenty-five years lease.

The crux of the trouble is if you omit that ~t would to us, as representatives of appear the people, that this question of land settlement and fi nance is not one in which there is sincerity.

If you do not include it, as a representative of the people to chnJlenge Government's sincerity.

lease.

f u t u re you may P e ·r h a p s have I would have eye-wash.
The CHAIRMA N : The hon.

Mem ber for Central Demera:ra has sug gested t hat considera.tion be deferred.

Mr. DeAGUIAR: t hat in order to assist the Bill rather t han to interfere with the other p art of the Bill.

I did Mr. J ACOB: I •am going to ask that the question be now put.

M r. DeAGUIAR : I wish to make it qu ite clear that I am supporting the amen\lment1 and OJl that g round I qSk 133 Co-op.
C. Banks Bill 2 JUNE, 1944 Pu blic H ealth Bi ll 134 that the matter be deferred pending further consideration of the clause.

The hon.

Member for Wef:tcrn Berbice discussed the matter with me yester day and he wanted to satisfy himself but not to interfere with the other parts of the Bill.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: 1 hon.

s upport the suggestion of the Member for Central Demerara that the matter be deferred.

The CHAIRMAN: It was consid ered by your Advisory Committee.
The COLONIAL TREASURER : The first persons who considered it was the Director of Agriculture, the Registrar and yourself.

The CHAIRMAN: This point did not come up in discussion ?

Mr. DeAGUIAR: 'No.

spoke to Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: I am a member of the CommiHee.

I felt that such a provision had been made in the the Director of past and I Agriculture who !

'laid he had no, objec tion to its inclusion.

Therefore I have moved the amendment here.


I have no objection if it is deferred to be con the Colonial sidered by the hon.

Treasurer the Director of Agriculture or referred back to the Committee.

in conjunction with friends its best it will go on being The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: This torpedoed Bill had ·previously been last October, by and torpedoed as long as people make suggestions to expand the credit.

Its provision b::i.a been most carefully studied.


I myself spent in a Co-oper~tivc Credit Bank and made myself acquain ted with the procedure of the Bank All hon.

Members have been speaking about the co-operative part of it, but the essential part is the finance.

It is suggest that every oue very easy to of hiR own should to agree and would land.

plot like two days own I ~ r I' see that, but we are de!lling with other people's money and have to think of security.
Do you think any Bank in this town will advance money on Ir.an in that way.

The risk is incalculable.

Mr. DeAGUIAR: There n great deal of merit in the amendment.

You can buy animai:,, machinery, you can manufacture, but provision is not made to purchase hmd.

is Mr. SEAFORD : With regard to the lending companies of this Colonv they fix a certain value on the propert)' and give a ,certain proportion as.

loan, but the mortgage and the loan all go through at the same time.
Therefore there is no risk run in any way.

thing Mr. JACOB: May I refer you to paragraphs ( g) and (h) .

The first is to own the essential you don't do absolutely land.

The wrong.

I would not lend money to repair a factory when I don't own the land.

No lending company will do that.

I cannot understand how that h as been left out and can be objected to at this stage.

is ,;o The CHAIRMAN: With the consent of hon.

Members I will hold over the Bill from that point-clause is no use going on further 23.
It without that clause being settled.

Further consideration was accord ingly deferred.

The Council resumed.

PUBLIC HEALTH AMENDMENT BILL, 1944.

Thr, Council into Committee and resumed consiJeration of- re3olvNl itself C • "A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to the Public Health Ordinance, amend 1934."
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL : 1 was addressing the Council yesterday on the amendment proposed to clause 6 of this Bill when the adjournment was The arnendmen t wns taken, 135 Public Health LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL (Amenclment) Bill 136 the subject come to them of the therefore, I asked some at tent i on moved without notice having been given and the experts were not present and, that it be deferred so as to get an opportunity to discuss it wi,th the experts.

I did so ,yesterday.


The Director of Medical Services and Dr. Bevier came and saw me.

Before I say what they told me I would like hon.

Members to realize that those two Officers are worldwide this subject and anti experts on mosquito measures.

They spent a life time in combating the mosquito.

One of them is consulted by the whole of the South American Republics as to the measures to be taken for combating mosquitoes.
I think we are fortunate in having those two Officers to advise us, and we ought not to grudge to to what pay their views on are.

I told nature of the amendment moved and their remarks were ''We are expert advisers on this particular subject in Australia, Cerl' tral and South America, and we have to have an to this place ordinary elementary precaution like this questioned.'"

I told them I would do my beat to oppose it if given the ammunition.
What I put before you now are statements put to me by the two experts.

They said first of all trees, that the mere such as banana plants and shrubs .. is perfectly hopeles·s; it does nothing to destroy the mosquitoes or the larvae in shrubs.

Dr. Bevier stated that their greatest malaria problem in Trinidad related to the breeding of mosquitoes in shrubs, those in George growing on garden lands town.
shrubs are Those particular the most virulent pests they have in ~ Trinidad and breed a particular form of mosquito, which at the movement in Georgetown.

has not yet arrived The mere phrasing of this para graph of the clause as amended by the amendment says ''keep trimmed all trees, shrubs, etc."
Keep ing these particular shrubs-aumilias --trimmed is not easy and the experts pointed out "Why spend vast sum., of money on squads of men inspect- trimming of such a·;:; simply the one pai1· you can do ing tubs, vats, drains, gutters and else and destroying any everything mosquitoes found there well knowing they are breeding in the bush behind and nothing about it?

These mosquitoes lay their eggs every eighteen days-hundreds.
You can work out how many million mos quitoes of mosquitoes in that bush will issue at the end of a in spite of all the examinatiou.

year of gutters, vats, etc.

Your gardens are infested with millions of mos quitoes.

Why spend money at all when you are going to leave virulent breeding ground right behind us.

Why waste money in asking us to do this?"


They quoted a case where there was an outbreak of malaria at Bartica, and they went up there with a squad of men and also visited the Penal Settle They found large receptacles ment.

of water full of larvae but did nol find any mosquitoes, yet every n ight in mosquitoes were on millions.
They then decided to carry 0ut a thorough search of the Settle ment, which they did, and found that ~u those mosquitoes lived permanently in a t ree trunk with a small aperture during the day a:nd came out every night and laid their eggs.

They killed t he mosquitoes and the I said to aperture in the tree trunk.

them, "Do you regard as important that ,:hould not allow this amendment ito I go through if I can avoid it?''

Dr. Bevier replied ''Most certainly.''


their wings sealed np They referred to the question by the hon Nominated Member, Mr. Critchlow- "Will Government not talc., steps to combat filaria ?"

They said "Certainly that is what we are doing.

That and twenty othe1· diseases m·e carried by mO'squitoes.

We are asking the Council to help us in our fight the against very Council which asks them to com bat the mosquito will not itself do this small thing which they ask.
Some of these mosquitoes in ,;hruhs and the worst breeding grounds are the open plots and fan-shaped palm trees.

If the amendment goes through what ,the mosquitoes."

But live .. '.1 , J 137 Pitbiic Health 2 JUNE, 1944 (Am.enclment) Bill 138 rightly said, collect in the will happen in the case of these palm trees?

If you trim that tree you just cut off the leaves and all the water would centre of the tree and mosquitoes will breed there.
''If you The experts want us to fight the mosquito please assist us.

If you do want us to do it as a matter of RO great importance that we attack the mosquito wherever is found-in the house, outside in the yards, in the grass and in the water.''

I ask this Council the powers to give they are asking for.

then accept it r The CHAIRMAN: It seems that we have brought down the wrath of the experts upon us.

times I would It may surprise Mr. WOOLFORD: like to make a few remarks in reply.
I am one of those persons who read reports of Dr. Bevier, but not the I understand · them, and always I freely at all admi<t some of these to my premises, Inspectors though they are not always very care they in what they do and how ful handle things.

The point is, there are many other residents who are will ing and ready to do the same thing.
If you read the clause it imposes on the of a householder or occupier premises the obligation to keep free from mosquito larvae all trees, shrubs, etc those learned gentlemen, but it is the truth, that in this benighted Colony hom,eholders and others have no facilities to carry out them.

I know that in my own case and the own friends who experience of my have no garden scissors or pruning implements to pare or knives or trim trees.
Therefore to throw on the occupier in the present circum stances an obligation this will simply mean his inability to do it.

Are you going to make him liable and have some Inspector bringing a the prominent before in Court, the Secretary case pe1·son as was a up done Colonial required of the Work to do of L of this Colony who was prosecuted Inspector under cir by a Sanitary cumstances which I do not wish to It is the mentality of persons recall.

of tha,t kind we have as an example.


The experts do not know the men tality of these people.

I suggest that the duty of removing these larvae be placed on the Authorities and not on C the householder.

It is much better to it on the community, however, force after they have got use to it.

In the African Colonies it is\.

done.


I under stand the is done willingly people have got used to it, but do not expect ordinary people like ourselves to merely say "Oh, yes, we are ready and willing to do,'' and we have not the means to do it.

I earnestly plead that 'l'he Authorities are best fitted to do it.

the clause be altered.

::md it and free if all (b) do not May I ask the hon.
the Attorney the words of para General graph also govern ''on his or on any other person'·s prem ises~,, If all the words there-"keep from mosquito trimmed larvae all trees, shrubs, hedges and plan.ts" are governed by those words also, not only imposing an obligation on the householder but on his neigh bour, I think what was intended was that "shrubs from overhanging roof gutters'' govern the words "on his oi, cm any other person's premises," but as the paragraph reads, it is the whole thing.
I do not think that is intended.

I have only risen to suggest that the from mos, obligation to keep free qu,ito the Authority.

removed larvae be to Mr. SEAFORD: May I suggest to the hon.

Member for New Amsterdam (Mr. Woolford ) that those people who scissors or a grassknife have no their neighbours or borrow use a cutlass?

t hat the I do feel in this Colony have an oblig people ation to their neighbours, and it is up to us to keep our premises and from 139 P.H.

(Amdt.)
(Amdt.)

Bill UlGISLA'flVE COUNCIL Old Age Pensions 13iU 140 ) plots of Janel in proper order and con dition.

So often we want everything done for us here.

A certain amount of responsibility should be put on us.

In Mr. LEE: I do not know if the Bill can be applied to the other Pub lic Health Ordinance.
certain instances an order has been made by a Magistrate for a house to be taken down or dismantled and, if the order is not carried out, the law provides for the Authority to carry it out and recover as a penalty to the person who refuses to act.

I think it can be done in that manner.

A notice can be served that this work under the clause be done and the Authority should have the power to do it and the cost.
We are spending recover money on t he protection of the health of the people and should not allow one to menace the whole commu person nity.

I think power should be given to the Authorities to carry out the work.

the fuss is The CHAIRMAN : I do not see what all The about.

present Ordinance puts the onus on the owner or occupier to keep free from breeding or harbouring of mosquito.
The present phraseology in the clause is "keep t rimmed and free from mos is very narrow, quito larvae,'' which as the present Ordinance states:- "The presence of mosquito larvac1 in any collection of water on premises shall be pl'ima facie evidence that the provis ions of the preceding section have not been obeyed, and the owner or occupier, as the case may be, of the premises shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding twenty four dollars."'
I not the does down see that ,anything do law narrow the else new than exist- ing liability.

At present one would be liable to a penalty if mosquitoes are found on the p r emises, but under the new if mosquito larvae are found .

It i!< a narrower provision thah the exi ;iting law and its operation will be to the benefit of the owner anrl occupier and law he would be only liable lt is a closer not to their prejudice.

definition that the sanitary people are after.


Mr. WOOLFORD, Why not remove "larvae'', since their discovery will lead to prosecution ?

The CHAIRMAN: The idea is to keep clown disease.

Liability is put on t he occupier and it is up to him to do It is a narrower provision his best.

than the existing Ordinance.

Clause 6 passed without amend ment.

The Council resumed.


The CHAIRMAN : As I have said, we will not proceed to the final stage of the Bill, and that question further may be brought up and considered then.

OLD AGE PENSIONS BILL, 1944.

A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to m ake provision for the payment of Old.

Age P ensions."

this Council The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Mov ing the second reading of the Old Age Pensions Bill I need not remind that hon.

Members of motions were tabled as Jong ago as 1942 by the hon.
Member for Wes tern Essequibo (Mr. C. V. Wigiht) a·nd the hon.

Member for North-Western Dis trict (Mr. Jacob ) regarding the ques t:on of the payment of Old Age Pen sions.

As the 1·esult of those motions that a Committee was appointed and the reported, and Committee duly present Bill is to a ver y lar ge extent based on the recorrtmertdatiorts of that Committee.

But there are one or two departures recorrimenda~ lton.

Members will no doubt tions.

compare the Bill with those recorrimert~ dations.


The first thing to be borne in mind, as is so often said in this Coun is a big cil Chamber, is country with the best part of it hard ly occupied which makes the payment that this those from 141 Olcl Age 2 JUNE, 1944 Pensions Biil 142 it Post Office to pay understand, of Old Age Pensions very difficult.
As in Barbados where l is within 400 yards of everyone a quite is easy Old Age Pensi.0ns, but in this country with people res i dent as far away as the Rupununi it is not so easy.

It is easy to provide the money but the machinery required for the physical payment is not easy to function.

i,n it does spaces as the machinery and improved later I am very anxious to stress this point.

The Bill aims at the start at simplicity.


It is mainly an endeavour to get the payment of Old Age Pensions can started, be the light of experience gained.

The great thing is to make a start and get it going, and then we can introduce improvements which have been introduced elsewhere but which we cannot see our way to do here because of physical difficulties This -space and lack of transport.

particular Bill, as every Bill, provides for wide open in Georgetown and New Amsterdam.
That is why the provis ions in this BEi are a very s imple procedure.

It is sim ply to get a start made.

If this works we would improve the method, but it I may is an endeavour to get a start.

Colonies say in in most before Old Age Great Britain they had Pension was the subject, to examine Committees and t hey in practically every case found that the estimates put up were very greatly exceeded in actual prac tice.

At a later stage I shall r.pote those figures and also Jater figures.
Any figures I quote may be greatly exceeded because we had no census for a long time now and no one knows how many are over the particular age at the moment.

The main condition of the Bill is that the age of s ixty-five years be taken as the qualifying age.

In Barbados the age i's seventy and in Trinidad it is sixty-five.
In the case of Barbados we have the exact figures of they thought it would cost, which was calcu the lated before they brought commitment introduced financial and the in the same experience scheme to provide Old Age Pension.

The scheme ,~•as estimated at a total cost of $70,000 a year, but in fact when they came to pay the pensions and did pay them it was greatly exceed ed.

$80,000 was the amount paid out.

the amount paid out .


$80,000 was There was in Trinidad, the same as in England, the amount paid out considerably exceeded < the amount estimated.

I want to impress vpon hon.

Members who may 1Je inclined to recommend an increase of the amount of pension that the posi tion may be more serious now than In Barbado,:, as I said, one realizes.

to pay Old Age Pensions at the age of sevent y it cost them $82,000 a year.
Recently ta th ey work ou t that extra cost and the found age amount In other words, a would be $138,000.

reduction of five years the age in the amount paid by will increase That is in Barba<i.os over $50,000.

according to their population.

they had a Committee that to s ixty-five r educed they the if What are the figures before us?

l am quoting figures from the report of the the Committee appointed to consider scheme.
They estimate that in George town, assuming a pensionable age of 65 years and over, there are 1,816 persons entitled to pension.

Elsewhere in that the Colony they estimate the number is 6,317.

They are people who, they estimate, will actually draw pensions.

They are not the actual number of people in the Colony over 65, but people who they expect would come forward and qualify to draw a pen~ion.
There are a great deal more people in this Colony of that age who either do not wish or do not qualify for pension.

• really · Clause 2 defines the "appropriate the is authority'' which through which the whole machinery Bill is intended to work.

The idea is that we have already the Poor Law Commissioners who a system which might be called pensions now both in Georgetown and in the rural areas.

To avoid aetting up new administer ~ l I f .


~ 143 Old Age LECISLATIVE COUNCIL Pensions Bill 144 .J; it means machinery it was · decided to utilize the Poor Law machinery--in existing Georgetown the Poor Law Com missioners, and in the rural areas the Local Boards apointed in respect of Do not assume Poor Law districts.

that L:iw distribution is finished.

It will go on exactly as it does now.

Old age pension is intended to be in addition to Poor Law relief.
Of course some people who now draw Poor Law relief will cease to do so on the receipt of old age pension, but other people would then come under Poor Law relief.

that Poor Clause 4 sets out the conditions for the· receipt of old :.~e pension or what a re ithe quallificatinns required.

There are four.

The first is that the person must have attained the age of 65.

There will be d,ifficulties in this connection .


Vast numbers of people are unable to prove their age and for a few years discretion will have to be used.

for 10 years The second qualification is that a person must have been a British subject immediately preceding the payment of a pension.

The need for that is quite obvious.

If we do not have some provision of that sort we would have all the elderly people over the frontier coming into British Guiana to celebrate their 6rith birthday.
The third qualification is that they must have been res,ident in the Colony for 20 years immediat.ely preceding the claim for a pension.

The fourth qualification is that a person must not be in receipt of an income exceeding $4.50 per month in Georgetown and $3.50 in the rural areas.

Clause 5 deals with the calcula tion of mean.,, while clause 6 sets out the procedure to obtain a pension.

Clause 7 is purely procedure, while clause 8 fixes the amount of pension and the method of payment.
It must be noted that it in no way depends on the amount of the income.

'l'he fact that a person is in receipt of a small income does not mean that that amount would be deducted from his In practically all Colonies, pension.

and certainly in the United Kingdom, any income you have is deducted from the pension.

Here once you are it is no more 2. question of qualified The amounts what your income is.

suggested are $3.60 per 1nensem in Georgetown the nienaem.
Clause 9 Colony $2.40 ve1· sets out the disqualifications, and I do not think anybody would disagree with them for one moment.

and elsewhere in Clause 1i1 contaiins ;the usual .provisions made in the case of all State pensions.

A pension must not be assigned or any charge made on it, it in the case of bankniptcy a nd does not pass to a trustee.

A pension is paid to a certain individual and he is not allowed to divest himself of it.

The is purely procedure.


rest of the Bill As involved r egards staffing, the Com missioner of Local Government is the person r esponsible undei' the Welfare that Seheme, and he has pointed out the actual the in labour fi rst 12 months would be greater than at any other time.

It will be necessary to r egister the pensioners and enquire into every single case.

It may take one year or longer to get the register ill working order.

The staff he two requ ires .


for the first year or will be be probably g reater than what he would need after the scheme has in operation for some time.

It been is should Le appointed temporarily for a period their of services were ther e might be permanent employment after two years.

The staff asked for is one clerical assistant of the lowest grade :end two lady record clerks fo r head- two years and told that if suggested that all persons satisfactory ·l ~ i • I ,J r-- l ,# t,.
145 Old Age 2 JUNFJ, 1944 Pensions Bill 146 quarters.

These would always be requi1·ed.

Elsewhere than in George temporary town he has asked for 16 assistants, and that he be allowed to pick his own men and pay them such salaries as he thinks they deserve in view of thei r previous experience and record.

The limit would be $100 per month.

The cost of the scheme works out as follows: the total cost of the staff 'l'he round about $20,000 a year.
is the cost of pensions estimated by Committee was $187,700, but it is that the actual cost now estimated would be $260,364 a year.

The cost of stationery is estimated at approxi mately $250, making a total annual In recurrent expenditt11re of $280,614.
addition, in respect of the first year it will be necessary to provide office equ ipment and forms, and various expenditure incurred in star ting a new office, and the Commissioner has asked for a further sum of :iil,500, making total expenditure for the first 12 a formally months of $282,114.

I now move second time.

that the Bill be read a thnt it has now, I hope, come Mr. AUSTIN: In seconding the motion, sir, I fe~l that in a way Gov lethargic.
ernment has been a bit Some years ago one of us endeavoun,d to get a Bill of this nature put on the Statute Book but was not successful, and it is due to a great extent to the hon.

Member for Western Essequibo (Mr. C. V. Wight) anrl Mr. Critch to low I understood the Attorney fruition.

to to say that the amounts General he paid as old age pensions are not as generous as they might be.
After living as we do in this Colony all, below disadvan tages which are not appreciated in other places in the Caribbean area, and people have to seek work here ati an earlier age than they generally d0 in the Islands.

I think the age of 65 is too high and might be reduced sea level we suffer to 60 years.

Even if we have to spend another $40,000 we should endeavour to do it.

To my mind I rank old age, perhaps wrongly, in front of early education.
I think the old people in this Colony r easonably fair treatment from the taxpaye1·s eo that they can look forward to a retiring age at which they perhaps may be in to take up small cultivationt=; able their to assist themselves and order families in a way which would make them reasonably comfortable.

should get C. supporting a As r egards staffing we must have a staff.

They do not complain about these matter,, in the United Kingdom; they look at it from another point of view.

We are large Alms House.


Would it be necessary to continue that?

I think it costs the Colony 40 cents per head per day to carry on that Alms House.

I give the Bill my thor ough support and I hope we will be a little more genero us as regards the amounts of the pensions.

Mr. SEAFORD : I would like to ask a question.

I would like the hon.

.-\ ttorney-General to say where h e got the information about a reduction of f 1I0,000 in five years?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL : That is t he figure from Barbados.
Mr. LEE: I heartily welcome this Bill and I agt·E-:e with the hon.

Nomi nated Member that Go\'ernment should consider a r eduction of the age to 60 years.

Looking around the country to see who will benefit_ b,v this Bill one f ind that many of them are will in poor circumstances, and if the age is reduced to 60 ther e would not be very many more this pension.

The amount of the pe.n,,ion also on the small side.
For is th e r ent of a small room one has to pay at the improvements suggested are made many persons would leave the Alms' House.

As a person gets older he gets feebler least $4 per month.

r eceiving If I .

147 Oicl Age LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Pensions B ill 148 and Gover nment should consider the possibility of introducing a graded scale of pensions.

The PRESIDENT: I thought it was the Daily Mail.


,I speakers have the amounts of t wo idea t hat Mr. JACOB : I am glad that the supported last t he the I am glad small.

pension are too t hat the Attorney-Gener al has too that.

This question was indicated br ought up in this Colony on several I think the hon.

Member occasions.
Member occasions.

for Western Essequibo (Mr. C. v. Wight) was the pr incipal mover for the i ntroduction of old age pensions here, and I believe I assisted in some measur e. the report of Looking at the Committee I find that their r ecommen dations as regar ds the amounts have 11ot been accepted.

I do not wish to say very much now, but when the particular clause is reached in Commit tee I will have something to say about it.
in I have a lways been accused this Council of making strong speeches accusing Government of one aud thing and another.

It has been said that r eal I never give Government credit for what it has <lone, but when is I the happening world I feel that I was fully just ified in speaking as I have spoken in the past.

I am not going to speak in that strain today.


I am mer ely going to repeat one or two statements made by M.em bers of Parliament, including Mr. George Hall, at one tim<;l Under-Secre tary of State for the Colonies.

When an impr oved pension plan was intro duced in the House of Commons in February, 1940, Mr. George Hall made t he following statement.

look around and in other parts s tudy what of T he PRESI DENT: What arE:' you quoting from ?

Mr. JACOB: the Da.i!

"J Herald of February, 1940.


I thong ht Your Excellency would have r ei::og nized the newspaper.

F rom Mr. JACOB: Maybe t he Daily This is wh at Mr. it too.

Mail had Hall said:- "This Bill is shamefully trifling with the greatest human problem the country ~s confronted with, and the treatment meted out to the old-age pensioners 1s a disgrace to this nation."

to improving One old Member said ''Old people feel they have been betrayed."
The Bill was introduced in England with a the position of view old the age pensioners by reducing age from 65 to 60 year s :md increasing the pension from 5/ - per week intro I d uced will say something more later.

in 1908.

I take my seat hut I r ise the Government Mr. CRITCHLOW: to congratulate on bringing th is Bill forward.

It is what I have been fighting for for over 19 years.
If I went to Government three times a year I always mentioned an old age pension scheme, and I was ver y proud when I heard the hon.

Meml)er for Western E ssequibo (Mr. C. V. Wight ) move a .

motion fo r the intro this duction of old age pens ions in two to move intended Colony.

amendments am to this Bill but I told that I could mention my points when the Bill came up.

I I was trying to find out how many .


people are alive today in the Colony between the ages of 60 and 65 hut I 1 am have not been ar.le to do so.

strongly of t he opinion that only 5 per cent.

of the population would benefit by t he Bill if the age was re:duced therefore support the ,suggestion that the age be red uced to 60 years.

to 60 years.
to 60 years.

I repor t of I notice in the the Commit tee that it was suggested in 1940 t hat the amount of pension should be $5 per month, but perhaps because Barbados and Trinidad pay Jess it i.s 1'19 Old Age 2 JUNE, 194,i Pensions B ill 150 propose~ to pay $3.60 in Georgetown $2.40 elsewher e in the Colony.

a nd There a r e many poor persons who have no means wh atever and w ill be dependent solely on this pension.
I am appealing to this Council to increase the amount to $5 or some reasonable sum above $3.60.

It may be said that to the,;e poor people have somebody help they them, but in many cases have absolutely no help.

We have to contribute to the upkeep of the Alms House and I am sure it works out more to maintain a person in that insti tution.
should consider the I suggest that a year af ter this scheme has been in operation Govern ment introduc tion of a compulsory insurance scheme whereby workers and employers wonld to the old age pension contribute should be scheme.

their to compelled upkeep when they get old.

I know that some firms in the Colony offer better !Jensions to workers who do not work regularly.

I again ask that the pensions be the increased.

Young people to contribute amounts of Mr. 1 would JACKSON: for ward.
When like t o add my quota of congratulations to Government on having brought this Bill the matter of old age pensions was spoken of in t his Council I had hoped that the amounts to be paid to individuals would have been so generous that it might have been advisable for me to r elinquish my teacher's pension and avail myRelf of the old age pension scheme.

How ever I t hink we ought to be thankful for sm all mercies.
That the amounts are but small goes without doubt, that th e scheme is a st~p in the ri ght I direction should certainly be agreeable t o a small incr ease of the amounts if that wer e possible.

I do not ... know much about reducing the age limit to 60 years, fo r in this country people are fairly young at 60.

The hon.

Nmni- is also beyond doubt.

r I I ~ I r - ~ I ~ "' right nated Member on my ( ~fr.
Cr itchlow) will be 60 during this year I am quite sure that any pers'on and qualifying for pension at his age would not deserve it judging by his appearance.

(laughte1:) .

if in remain outside inmates I am st rongly of the opinion that if the amounts proposed were increased the the effect would be to reduce the Alms number of It is with some difficulty House.

that some people are persuaded t o go to the Alms House.
They look upon it as a disgr ace, and I am sure ther e them who would are numbers of prefer the to amounts of the pensions could be increased.

the hon.

Member (1\fr.

Lee) wants the pensions to be on an incr emental basis, beginning at t he figures proposed by Government.

He that as a man gets older he thinks should get a little more.
My exper ience is that as a man gets older he requires less food and does not take so much to is keep himself a s when he younger, so that I do not t hink that as a person gets older he requires some thi ng more.

for Essequibo River I notice that I I have a grouse in connect ion with this matter.

I have always had it in respect of the distributir.n of Poor Law relief.

cannot see why in Georgetown should get a people larger pension than those in the country I believe it is more difficu lt districts.
for really poor persons to exist in the country districts than t hose in the t owns.

As a matter of fac t no one, unless he the poor people in the countr y districts, kno'.vs the :ind the difficult ies they have to end:1re in City live.

to order of Georgetown there are numbers of organizations which help the poor, and of course those who go about the streets to seek assistance can do far in t he country t he poor better than I therefore think the poor districts.
their wants extent of among lives the In L --- ,) ~ 151 Giel Age LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Pensions Bill 152 Let there be one · in this Council for people people in the country dish-lets should I do not receive a little better help.

to for one moment ask reduce in amount the Georgetown but I do appeal for similar the consideration for the people country districts.

uniform amount of pension throughout the Colony and no hardship would be created.
It would cost a little mor e, i t is true, but I think there should be one amount of pension for everybody.

In the case of persons entitled to pen sion from the Government there is no variation according to the locality in wh ich the pensioner lives.

I am urgin g that t he same system be adopted in rela tion to t he poor people in the City and country districts.

This is a step in the right direc tion and I know there is not a single Member of the Council who will not I al~o think there support this Bill.
are sever al Member s who are sympathe tically inclined towards the people in I make no the country districts.

threat but I think the representatives of the rural districts would have to answer if the poor some questions people in the country distri cts are not _given the same amount of pension as those in Georgetown.

We have heard a lot about Elected Members and that they should be Chairmen of Committees and so on, and I hope they will r ise to the occasion and speak up for their respective districts.
sugar estates when law.

While old Mr. EDUN : A sigh of relief will the country districts be breathed in this and on the age Bill becomes I pensions would come in any case want to pay tribute to one hon.

Memb':lr of this Council, Mr. C. V .

Wight, for the ser vicP r endered to those who have serve~ British Guiana and are now old enough to be considered encumbrances and put aside.
At t imes we ought to invoke the blessing of God when we consider old people, and in t his case, if we a re not to think that the moun- tain was in travail and brought forth a mouse, old age pensions should be a f lat rate of not less than $5 per month.
old this become country As a result of climatic condit ions the working in quickly, people class and I limit should be think the age r educed even below GO year s. I think the age should be 60 years for men and 55 years for women, but that would be considered a radical a mendment and would involve a lot of money.
But if old age pensions cost this Govetnment half a million dollars I personally would not grudge it because this countr y has benefited up to now from t hose very old per sons to whom belat ed consideration If we are giving i ~ now being given.

the working consideration at all to classes who will benefit most by old age pens ions then this Council ought to revise its attitude as r egards the amount of the pensions and the even tual cost of the scheme.
in F or that reason I the guardians think care should be taken to enlarge and widen the scope of the count r y d istricts and on the sugar estates in order to r ecommend or to examine applicants.

That involves the question of democracy.

A pittanc:e of $282,000 is merely t inkering with the problem of old age pensions if at all we I am thinking that want t o do justice.

there are 8,000 likely applicants and at $5 each per month it would involve an annual expenditure of $,180,000.
T am prepared to vote half a million dollars for old age pension.

As a Member of I should be discharging this Council the my duty and invoking on myself blessing of t he poor people.

If there is charity to be done it should be done in the fulness of things.

I As travel ar otmd the sugar estates practically ever y Sunday, what do I see?

Thousands of old women and broken down men who ask me: "Are you not asking Government to assist us with something;?"
The hope __ j 1~3 Old Age 2 JUNE, i944 Pensions Bill 154 I gave them was that old age pension was coming, and now we are thinking of giving them 60 cents per week.

I suggest that we wait anoth er year I and give this 1 ecei ved rnorning :- them $5 per month.

the followi11g telegr am "Port Mourant- Albion Committee resolution old age pellSiion be $5.

Inform Governor.

Details posted.

Ramjitsingh."

is the like If I asked for resolutions from all over the country I would get them in the hundreds .
The producing mas1-;es, or anges, sucked i1aving been are now to be t hrown overboar d, and given a pittance of 60 cents per week.

game.

That not playing spent on Thousand of dollars a r e pensions and salaTies of civil servants.

lt ' is a s hame, and in view of t he fact that this is a t ropical country I think we ought to revise our attitude.

I think the Committee, or whoever was respoHsible fo r drafting this Bill, did not th ink of the human side of it.
l t is no use talking about old age pensi,m when we are placing it on the same basis as Poor Law relit£.

When I was appointed a member of the Po0r Law Commission I could not stand the sight of not than 20 persons coming before me· every fortnight and the asking for doles.

of Den hon.

Nominated Membe1: Amstel if we increased the amount of this pension we -would bring about a r eduction in the Alms of the upkeep of the cost House.
the Therefore I appeal to Councii not to think so much about, money but invoke the blessing of the poor people on this Council.

Jackson ) that I agr ee with ( Mr. less I do not know how the Indian immigrants will be affected-whether their immigrant certificates will be accepted as proof of I think they ought to be accepted becau:::e :t is thei r only proof of the ir age.

I ieome cases it will be found that their age wer e put on the high side because, If their r ight ages wer e known in India their age. "
to they would not have been allowed come here.

However.

tliat is a matter which can be examined.

something we have been I want to thank Government.

I want to be grat eful because old age pension is looki ng forward to for the last 5 or 7 years.

From the inception of the Man Power Association it formed one of its planks.

It has come at last, but fo r Heaven's sake do not let us r educe it to an absurdity.
Do not make the world feel t h at we are miserly in giving t he t hat masses Government should reconsider the age limit and increase the amount of the pension.

There also be no rigidity in dealing with applications .

Let t h e scheme be positive and not negative.

I suggest pittance.

sh ould a Mr. C. V. WIGHT: to Government t he motion I had not intended to speak on the Bill which has my support subject to certain observa I would like to t h ank the hon.

t ions.
t ions.

the Sixth Nomin ated Member (Mr. Edun ) and those other Members who have so kindly referred to my efforts.

If any credit is due to me I think ~reat credit is dne t o h ou.

Members of this Council who unanimously supported my motion.

I h owever think greater credit for h aving· dne is and fo r putting accepted this Bill befor e Council.

I say great cred.it is due to hon.


Members for t heir unanimous support becanse I feel that this is an instance which h as brought some benefit t o t he inhabitants of the Colony by unanimous decision.

They did not descend to the general self-aggrandizement and abuse not only of Government officer .

:; but other E lected Members wh o are alleged to be not representative of t h e people and not doing t his and that in the interest of the people because they happen to be a little better off.
that policy in this Council l can see no possible h ope of success or extension the of the democratic principle of consti tution of I can only see a reversion to the unfortun ate this Council.

If we adopt a r ~ t 155 Olcl Age LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Pensions Bill 156 I ,,) a occurred when the debacle which Constitution was taken away from us.

There is too much abuse of the indivi du al because he happens to be repre sentative of ,section.
particular is no give-and-take and no · There credit given to those who are honestly endeavouring to do something in the interest of the Colony.

When I hear threats about election and certain Members being thrown out neck and crop, of certain Members who do not stand a chance, and only two or three Members who represent the whole Colony and should sit in the 24 seats in the future composition of the Coun cil, it makes me despair of the future of the Colony.
it do a matter· and that I had heard of certain opposition to to the motion which I proposer!

move, but that did not cteter me in any it way.

I simply went ahead with feature there is perhaps one because that hon.

Member~ have not touched they know as well as upon, I of is paramount importance.

We know that in this Colony there are several young men and perhaps elderly ones who are the only bread-winners of their family, and it is really in that direction that some relief might · take place.
It will allow a more hopeful future for those young persons who start life on a paltry salary of $20 or less and have :m aged mother, father or uncle, al!

in There is a large the sa:me house.

proportion of persons in that position, and it is to those that perhaps the greate~t r elief will immediately come.

I I would like to make one or two observations on the suggestions made the hon.

N omimited Member, by Mr. Critchlow.


agr ee with him thflt there should be com entirely old pulsory contribution age pension scheme, age limit should be reduced to 60 years, and that the amount of pension should also be increased, but what I do say is let us go gradually.

Let us start with the initial stage ty getting the &cheme to an that the working, and, if neces~iuy, within a month or two after its inauguration we can make amendments as soon as the administrative side has got going.
Do not let us start immediately to I have heard upset the whole scheme.

threats about being thrown out at election time, but if 51 per cent.

of the voters in my constituency tell me that resig·n.

they do not want me I would The hon.

Nomim,ted Member has achieved his aspiration for which he has been striving for over 20 years, even before he started to play cricket with me.

We have heard a lot about the Alms House.


Are we going to continue to have an Alms House even thou gh this old age pension scheme may reduce the number of inmates in that institu tion?

Are we not going to strive more to introduce a system of wol'king houses in each County?

Perhaps such a system may be better than having an Alms House.

I to us.
I to us.

Mr. WOOLFORD: I was a member of thought I might m:ike some useful contribution to this debate if I gave Member s some idea of what is paid in other places near the Committee and I share t he view that the qualifying age should be 60 years, The original legislation in England was only introduced in 1908, and the pay ments ther e are 10/ - per week with a means test of 20/ - per week.

There is an Assessment Board which goes into any particular claim and makes a further contribution.
There are some details that as the scheme progresses we shall have to attend to.

The means (20/ -) per test is week in the United Kingdom.

In the Island of Trinidad it is $5-.00 per mont h and- twenty shillings :fylr.

EDUN: $5.50 !

Mr'.

WOOLFORD: am only speaking of the time of the report.

l am information of the Committee and, .


l availa:ble speaking the to I 157 Olcl Age 2 JUNE, 1944 Pensions Bill 158 is four shillings think, you will find that I am correct in saying it was $5.00 up to two months ago.

That is the infor mation supplied to me, as I tMk the trouble to enquire.

In the I sland of Barbados it ( 4/ -) per week.

That is the comparison with tw~ very much richer places with lnrger popul ation.
We are doing extremely well as a beginner, and whilst I ag ree that we should, if we can, make a larger con tribution I hesitate to press it at t he moment until we see how t h e Scheme works.

My suggestion is, we do not know how many people will claim benefits and if it becomes necessary for supplementary estimates 'that can be done.

That is a practical suggestion I make.

Let the Bill go through, see the number of c!a,ims, examine them and make supplementary payment.
As i3 done elsewhere there is no fixed amount.

Frequently in all t hose places operate where Old Age Pensions claims are made in mid-year or at alternate times, and the claims are fixed as often as may be.

I agree that in in none of those places, not even England, any differ enti&tion is made between in one district 01· another, and I am inclined to the view that fixed the pension s should be a in Georgetown or amount whether the outlying districts.
living faces emphasized which There is one feature that has not the been Committee.

In calculating t he pension the means test should be applied hut it does not include the person who is over 65, or 70, or whatever age-limit, and is also receiving P oor Law Relief.

Hon.
Hon.

Member s know there are women rece1vmg P oor Law Relief who are over sixty years and who will still be eligible for this pension because the amount they get from the P oor L aw Commissioners, 1/ 6 or 2/ per week, ,vill not make t hem inelig ible for this pension.

There again we must allow a to lapse in order to see how period the many people claim and how t he allocation can be made.
When l- I, in especially to make one or reached I would Committee stage is like two other suggestions about the whole matter, because I do not know in what way it can be ascertained.

I rather fancy one hon.

Member said it is possibly 8,000 persons.

On what is that based?

We have got some figuress from the Poor Law Commissioners.
I f eel that in t his the City of Colony, Georgetown, there are large numbers illiterate people whose ages are of somewhat difficult to determine and who have never been in the Alms H ouse and, therefore, the Alms House f igures can be no guarantee.

A large number of people, we all know, may come to us or may write letters who are cles perately in need.
,vhilst I t hink there are going to be many inequalities and many dissatisfied people who may be rejected, I do say let us get on with the Bill, take the estimate as a gauge and, if the n ecessity arises later on, meet it with a supplementary provis ion.

like t o Ray.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: As every Member who has spoken has supported the principle of t he Bill ther e is not hing I need s ay at this stage.

There is, however, one thing I would It is mentioned about the amount paid as pension in T r inidad.
The last information I got is that the amount is $G.00, but from that you deduct any income one may be in receipt of.

Here no deduction is made.

I do not t hink there is any big margin of diffe,·ence between t he pensions proposed this Colony and t hose in fact paid in Trinidad.

Remarks were made as to why there should be a difference bet ween t he pension in Georgetown and t hat out side Georgetown.

That is entirely a matter for hon.

Members of this Couneil t his Coiony \vho ~now condfit ions I do.
The cost of far better t han living I know it is higher outside Georgetown is a peculiar matter for also.

lVIembers of Council to work out the as any figures sµch as .

they are, in Georgetown is high, but in I,t in 159 Old Age LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Pensions Bill 160 also take remember information enthusiRstic information, we can ,hon.

Nominated Member to the teeth and go a little change of any sort may have very great consequences.

As the hon.

Member for ·.voolford) and New Amsterdam (lVIr.

the ;JVIr.
the ;JVIr.

have s aid, get a start made Edun) as soon as we can and, as we obtain reliable then amend this as is possib!E:.

As soon as the t he is available can be made, but we alteration that Social ,nust inclined ·welfare workers are always the bit and too between fast.

This to r estrain is calculated those members, if they can, and keep the OJJeration within limit.

I ii.m not ispeaking against an increase of the left entirely to the amount; that is Council.
What I do say is, do not let enthusiasm carry us away with amend ments.

A few months later we shall see whether an amendment is justified this Bill.

The other in points as to age, the amount a nd the difference in amounts to be paid in Georgetown and e1sewhere, can each be taken when the Bill is in the Com • mittee stage.

relation to it to The PRESIDENT: Before I put the motion I would just like to add one word to what the hon.
the Attorney General has said and say that any sub stantial amendment of the Bill, which may mean a substantially greater esti reached than the one we have mate at now, w ill prevent me from going forward straightway with it.

I will be compelled to commit another Committee for closer investiga tion and proper changes to be made.

I may also have to ta ke it up with the .Secretary of States for the Colo nies and again secure his concurrence to go forward .
I may explain that it ,vas with a great deal of diffidence I accepted the moton of the hon.

Me m ber for Western E ssequibo (Mr. C. V. Wight) two years ago.

'The figure ,vas then $180,000.

It was on that baf'is l went forward with it and on that the Secretary of basis I addresse<,:l again States and got a change made in the decis ion reached by my predecessor with the concurrence of the Secretary of States that the matter be postponed for the duration of the war.

That is the position I am in.


Without taking upon myself to sanction our going for ward with the Bill in spite of sub stantial addition to the original esti to feel myself free m~te, go further.

I advise hon.

Members to take the Rill as it sta~1ds.

That is to bring all I can do to assist you the Bill quicker into operation.

I advise strongly the favour of going on with the scheme as early as possible.

I do not of There In general to intended i<1 one other thing·, that.
to make the reference made abou t the Alms Hou~e.
I had asked the Commissioner of Local to be pre.sent at s0me Government stag-e of this debate to exolain the Governme.nt with proposals it regard the Alms is House what it should be, an In firmary for t he completely aged, the old sick, and to take certain other steps as regards the poor people who will be given relief and will still live in their homes or some other kind of prefer able I have asked Mr. Laing to attend and I expect to h1we him here during the Committee stage of the Bill.
I shall therefore put the question.

institution.

Question put, and agreed to.

BIil read the second t ime.

The PRESIDENT: We have still the the other Bill and I had proposal put up to me as to a clause which may meet hon.

Members.

T do n ot think we can go forward with it with this very sparse Council we have.

I am sure Government Officers would like to give it a little careful study before voting on it.
If the Council is agreeable we may go on the Committee stage, unless there is any other item on the Order of the Day it is desirable to get forward with now.

to 1 .1 161 Ebini Experiment 2 ,JUNE, 1944 Station 162 Mr. JACOB: You are going to adjourn at 4 o'clock!

The PRESIDENT: Yes.

Mr. JACOB: can do very much now.

I do not think we EBINI EXPERIMENT STATION.

The COLONIAL 'f'REASURER: There is little I need to and can add to what has been stated in Your Excel lency's Message No.

24.

Hon.
24.

Hon.

Members will recall that in August, 1940, this Council annroved of the establishment of this Ebini Station in regard to the experiment of making trials to offaet the mineral deficiency of the soil and grass in the savanna!

).s of the interior.


That previous resolution provided for an extension of the original appropria tion of $30,000 spread over five years and, as stated in the Message, some experienced last year difficulty was owing to the shortage of bonemeal, and those scheme undertook to make good that deficiency by using mineral fertilizers in order to raise certain crops to take the place of bonemeal.
The cost of the extension of the scheme was $6,000 and Government in view of the urgency of the matter authorized this expenditure as a charg·e against the free grant already made from the Development Trust Fund.

It is accordingly necessary to make up the the experiment will be carried out as originally contemplated in 1945. total of the grant so responsible that this for The Advisory Committee of the Development Trust Fund has considered it and approved of the grant and also t he Secretary of State.
Formal approval of Members of this Council i11 now necessary for the e~tension of this the Development Trust g rant from Fund.

There I is just one point I have seen would like to mention.

in the file a letter the Director of Agriculture by Mr. Wake- • field, which hon.
Members may be interested in because Mr. W akefieid there said that from such reports as addressed to l r is satisfied that had reached him .he the work has been of w~ry great value indeed and, as Your Excellency men tioned in your Message, it is intended after the completion of the scheme to proceed by asking the Development and Welfare people for a further and larger grant.

With these few words I beg to move-- That.

with reference to Governcr's Message No.


1 of the 27th April, 1944, the Council approves of an additional grant of $6,000 from the Development Trust Fund to cover the cost of ca-rrying out pasturage extension work necessary to prevent a high death rate among the livestock on the Ebini Experiment S,tation.

Mr. SEAFORD seconded.

f I had the idea the cattle I would like it to Mr. JACOB: that I have always remain on record supported this scheme.
I think when the scheme was put up here-unfortun ately I cannot find the Me,;sage now that it was very - conservative and industry woud benefit.

What beats me is that all these schemes for improvement are put so far away that one can hardly get the public who is generally interest ed in these matters to go there and see what is going on.

I do not know if "four Excellency paid a visit to this station when you went to the Berbiee River District recently.

The PRESIDENT: Yes, l have.


to like ,vas I would fixing the Mr. JACOB : Therefore Your impressed otherwise Excellency this motion would not have been put forward.

state, however, tha t these experiments should be viewed by the people to be benefited, :1ite transportation :.nd in facilities ought to be considered.
I do not think this matter was given very careful consideration first instance, and I have no ctoubt it will be some kind of a success later on but that success will be achieved at very great i.s expe.nse.

ctarted nearer the coastlands on the E ssequibo River or even the Berbice River-I think it is 2,000 miles a,vay; 1 have not got the measurement.- like · that scheme If a the in f 163 Ebini Ex.

Station LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL 1944 Sup.


Estimatea 161 ii' The COLONIAL TREASURER: is 2,000 The ar ea of the savannah square miles.

I Mr. JACOB: think it is 700 miles from New Amsterdam.

H .vou have s uch an area hundreds of miles from New Amsterdam- The COLONIAL TREASURER: I must ask the hon.

Member not to make s uch a statement.

It is only 75 miles from New Amsterdam.

r have got Mr. J ACOR: square miles.


inhabited co,1stlands think I the figures-75 miles from N€w Amster dam and the experiment is carried on I in an area of 2,000 s quare miles.

think the total that 4,000 figure was given in Your Excellency's I was not prepared for this speech.

I motion this afternoon otherwise I do would have got out my data.

urge on this Government to be practical.

I do not know how many cattle you have there.


is going on there, but you ~!re continuing to spend money on 2,001) square miles of land.

That is how it looks to me.

You have got Mara, Friends, the Essequibo Coast, the East Coast Dem erara, the East and West Banks of the Demerara River where you can start experiments lhe people in the surrounding areas can benefit by them.
I do not know what that so that like menting on to see if the rest of the immediate 2,000 square miles of 1.he savannah up, taken lands can be because the pasture lands on t he coastal belt are already overcrowded and t he people have no where to put their cattle.

The reason why this could not be carried out there is that conditions are entir ely different on the coastal belt and the idea is to see if the 2,000 acres ther e can be of sav~nnah lands up It is made available for pasturage.
110 good carrying out the experiment on the coastland on quite a different type of soil and grass and there i s no certainty we can get :i better and thne.

extended pastme this The Committee agreed those grant for th is experinwnt for It is entirely an experiment.

reasons.

for cattle to give The PRESI DENT : I have seen It is a kind of the place myself.

inland savannah and nothing exists like that near the Coast.

It is a different kind of soil and pas~ure, and tht'!
experiment is to see if we can obtain with such an area that improvement to des ired.

It is quite It is bring it down near the Coast.

possibly just as near as we can get it.

If it is successful, then it means a consider able a rea of inland savannah can be made profitable to us.

impossible Question put, and a~reed to.

Motion carried.

The PRESIDENT: Unfortunately that special kind of savannah does not exist in those places.
Mr. JACOB: I merely rose to say I am not against the principle of this experiment but it is being carried out so far from the coastl:mds that it is of very little value to the commnnity.

FIRST QUARTERLY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1944.


The COLONIAL TREASURER: I move- That, this Council approves the Schedule of Additional Provision for the quarter, 1st J anuary to :\1st March, 1944, required to meet an expenditure in excess of the provi sion made in the Estimates for the year 1944, which h as been laid on the table.

Mr. SEAFORD : May I attempt to explain the position?

The area that Government is experimenting on, the hon.

Member said, is 2,000 s quare miles.

That is not the case.


It is a very small area Government is experi- If hon.

Members have copies in front of them they would see all the items, except sh all refer, were examined in detail by the Finance Committee on the 25th Fehru ary, 1944.

The only two items, which two to ·,vh ich J ~ I r .,.

~ ... ~ ..... 16~ 1944 Sup.


Estimates 2 JUNE, 1944 Bishops' Hi gh School 16'> the Council - included on have been inserted, apart from those in the Schedule examined on that day, are the two having reference to resolutions of " Subsidisation, $1,000,000", approved by Resolution No.

XL on the 14th March, 1944, and this Schedule; and now "Reconstruction of Bishops' High School, $20,000" under the Colonial Development and Welfare Schemes, IX which passed on the 30th December, l ~i-12.
Unless any Member has any particular point to raise on there will be no need to go int o Committee.

The Schedule itself is extremely shorn and, except for the item of $1,000,(100, is not of a very large total.

Therefo1·e I move that the motion be passed unless any Member wishes the Schedule consider ed in Committee.

is covered by Resolution the estimates The COLO NI AL SECRET ARY seconded.
Mr. JACOB: I do not think I would like to say something on this $1,000,000 vote for I am not against S11b~ Subs idisation.

the sidisation, but expenditure is wise.

I would like to make my comment and let it r emain on record.

I am going to ask that we go into Committee so that Members will not lose their privilege.

I can well remember what happened at the last m eeting when an additional provis ion was considered and the Deputy Presi I am asking dent was i,n the Chair .
that the Council go into Committee so as to discuss these items.

THE PRESIDENT: Your sug gestion is not seconded.

Apparently ,it is the wish of the Council to take the Schedule as it stands.

I do not, however, stop the hon.

Member from speaking in any way he wishes.

I t i l r ~ Mr. JACOB: I had my n otes on I do not lmow if Subsidisatior.

here.

they are the same as when we arrived here one evening and I raised certain questions about implements and tools.
I this included think that in is l .... remember $1,000,000 item, and the hon.

the Colonial l Treasur er will expressed very strong v iewS\ as to why I cer tain think it has got to the time for the adjournment and we should not rush these things like this.

things were not done.

that I The P RESIDENT : We are not ~ am quite prepared to I rushing it.

listen to you.

Mr. JACOB: What I say will have that very little effect.

but it is well these matters are considered.


As regarchi the Bishops' High School I do not J; nc,w when the new building will be c•,ni,tructed, whether in the next few yea rs or earlier, but there is only limited accommodation for 200 children.

I'ul,lic feeling is running as high as when 11.dditional accommodation wa!

'\ nol provided at Queen's Colkige.


The PRESIDENT: I sent a tele r.-r:-m yesterday to the Comptroller tell ing him that I am prepared to start tomorrow and the accomodation allowed for u11der the revised plan is 2'50.

That That ,.vill be is the present position.

the r,Jan on which we will star t build ing .

those I speak from per sonal knowl M:r. JACOB: I do not think it is fair to limit the accommodation.

This limitation has gone on for a consi<ler lt is amazing ab1e number of year s .
the public spirit of the men put on these Boards of Governors for Queen's College and the Bishop:;' High scb/)ol, that they should limit the accommoda tion for children going into schools.

edge.

There are literally hundreds of girls who would like to get accommoda I had tion at Bishops' High School.

occasion to speak to the acting Hea<l mistres·s who told me that she would do me the favour of admitting one of my daughter s but not the other at nll That is my own personal case.
There are hundreds of pupils who should go int o that school hut Government has put down the limit at 200.

-~ """".l!IC" .. ·c;+:;::,;:; ., ~ .

• 167 1944 Sup.

Estimates LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Old Age P ensions 1G8 The PRESIDENT: The present amount caters for 250, and it can be extended if you vote mo:ce money. }

.

.

, lVIr.

JACOB: I do not think this Council would grudge voting m0re I have no doubt that if Gov money.

• ernment put up an estimate this Conn cil would vote the amount.
I would certainly like to see this Council refuse • • to vote the money for the extension of Bishops' High School, but Your Excel lency will not be prepared to take that risk and put it to the test.

Therefore, l think this Government is not going to continue to have the confidence of the responsible members of the public.

I respons ible am told that I am not a individual when I complain that the two principal educational institutions for cannot accommodate t he children secondary education.
It is a step i n the wrong direction.

Although we have heard all these wonderful promises and of the great hopes that should be bnilt on the Higher education Commissioni~rs coming out to these Colonies, what are we actual]~, doing to have higher education within t his Colony-limit ing it everywhere.

I urge that the accrnn- modation should be increased to 300 and not 250.
If you have accommoda tion at Queen's College for 350 or aoo and the Queen's College Old Boys' Association suggest s that the accomr.io dation there should be 600, I do not ;;ee why the accommodation at Bishops' High School should not be 500 or 600.

I think there are as many girls as boys who require secondary education, but you make allowance for less girls.

If the accommodation at Queen's College is to be for 600 then there should be at • 1• Bi.shops' High School accommodation for at least 500. ,.
1 • The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Your Excellency, I have not got the papers before me but I have seen them recently, and I think I um correct in saying that the site can provide accmn modation up to 500 and the plans are made in such a way that there can be expansion as desired and as money is provided for it.
In other words, when it is said that Government is limiting the accommodation at the school my answer to that is the plan is so devised that the school can be extended as desired and the site is ' big enough to I t ake a school to accommodat e 500. am speaking from memory and the· actual figures given may be w r ong.

Mr. JACOB: When I discmsed the acting Head the matt er with mistress of the school a few weeks ago, she gave me the the plan was for an accommodation of 3/JO.

for Georgetown The hon.


Member North (lVIr.

Seaford) knows that impression that The COLONIAL SECRET ARY: The pla111 c~.n be extended when and a s is desired.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion carried.

CONTRIBUTORY OLD AGE PENSION SCHEME.

Mr. CRITCHLOW: I desire to a sk that consideration of my motion for a Compulsory Conh•ibutioms Old Age P ension Scheme be deferred.

q j ,l :j At this Council stage adjourned to Wednesday, 14th June,.

1944, at 12 noon.

the t .i.