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873 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 874 HOUSE OF COMMONS Friday, 14th May.

1965 The House met at Eleven o'clock tion Year.

The hallmark can be described designed primarily youtih.

I have referred 1965 is International On 21st November, Assembly of the United Naitions passed this resolution of my Motion as world co-operation to start with all world to the faot that Co-operation Year.
1963, the General : PRAYERS [Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair] OVERSEAS SERVICE (SCHOOL LEAVERS) co­ a year to international " Convinced that increased and significance public awareness of existing would help to bring about increased and co-operation of mankind every­ appre­ the settlement would lead to a better of the true nature of a world com­ of the extent day co-operation ciation munity and the common interests and that devoting operation world understanding facilitate thereby national problems.
20th year of the United Nations, Year."

Co-operation na1ional I should like to think that this House will join me in accepting part of our contribution Co-operation Year.

Unfortunately, Conflicts 1965, the as Inter­ .

.

.

Designates of major inter­ and we live in a world of this resolution as to International it is probably is that conflict co-operation.

we have over the centuries groped seem to spring up at and pretence.

They mankind at all levels Indeed, conflict.


the least pretext seem to dominate of our behaviour.

fair to say that one of the most shameful things of our behaviour seems to dominate theless, forward, spite of it, and we have groped forward because all our motives ano�her.

of our contribu.tion co-operation national accent on co-operation.

conflict.

desire underlying one with to co-operate that part in this year of inter­ is to put a stronger Therefore, I of a constant not because of conflict.
rather than on believe Never­ but in 11.5 a.m. Mt·.

William Molloy (Ealing, North): I beg to move, the urges Her Majesty's and believing that the youth would welcome the oppor­ That this House, whilst appreciaJting effort that is being made to help the develop­ ing countries, of Great Britain ttmity to make an eflective contribution in this sphere, to ensure that information for all forms of service ment are brought in our comprehensive, dary modern schools, in the firm belief that the youth universities.
of our nation is eager and able to make its contribution Government and opportunities develop­ of students grammar and sec0t1- as well as those at in overseas to the attention to a better world.

ramifica­ as well, not only for black youth, This Motion has tremendous not only for the youth of ou,r own but, I hope to show, for the tions, country, youth of otht;r countries for white youith, but brown youth and yellow youth.

This sub­ ject matter is of incalculable and betterment.
for goodness will into action, call whioh, not only enrich the frontiers of under­ of our own young citizens, but standing require will also spread this urgently d many nations.

It throughout desiderata is, in fact, a two-way business.

two-way method of enlarging standing.


if transla,ted It is a under­ It is a propensity Regrettably, the co-operation of idiocy when we I ought to explain for me to sketch the current at the outset that for the House to enjoy a full under­ of what I have in mind it will standing be necessary scene concerning countries explain our nation can add to what is now being done.
The Motion also in.valves United Nations organisation within i:t. and, at the same time, to that the youth of and the efforts of that and many of the agencies bow I believe aid to developing the we fear.

of some terrible of defence measures-in think that this is relevant and I hope to show seems to be almost supreme, consider-I to my argument that it is-the co-operation which can achieve because Thus we have co-operatio velopment weapons.
We have also heard nuclear over the past 12 months of a desire in the uses of outer space.

I co-operate will not say that this is a bad thing.

I that we ought to learn from our believe errors of the past, and that if we are outer space it ought to be done to explore in a co-operative spirit.
n in the de­ to The year 1965 is known in United as Lnternational Co-opera- Na:tions circles I applaud this desire to co-operate in the examination of outer space, but it 875 Overseas Service 1-4 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 876 When one realises to almost two-thirds we ought to take more time out what is going on and, more what we ought to do to try for is simply with trying to keep body and soul together.
that this of mankind applies perhaps to examine important, to put it right, example, failing when we realise population that half the world's illiterate.

that world food production when we acknowledge, is totally to keep pace with population, [MR.

MOLLOY.]

seems to me that we have got our priori­ ties wrong.
While peoples can co-operate in outer space we have not yet reached intelligent that posii,tion of sensirbl,e, oo­ in ,the uses of aH -Vhe rnw operation ma<teriais of tihis o:f living, standards to reduce t'he a,reas tlh:a,t co-operation ignorance, elimination required.

our prime objective to e>liminate poverty and injustice, of which is most urgently and, at tlhe same ,time, I beiieve of conflict.

ought to be in hU(llger, disease, world constantly to raise the The contrasts are wholly repugnant.
and social pro­ and negligible.

It seems to The march of economic gress is at one and the same time both breathtaking me that the West goes bashing regardless, whilst towards crawling living.

the East is groping a meagre standard on almost and of may be a Half the world's population or form a very it a figure we cannot estimate good idea of.
Even if we translate it is still into the figure of 1,700 million figure for one to compre­ very difficult hend, but I hope that it is enough, it ought to be, to say that half the population, world's human beings, to consider nation this grievous or 1,700 million to compel us what we in our ought to be doing to try to rectify are illiterate very seriously situation.

as In many parts of the world medicine Indeed, unknown.
some of the is totally reports on some of the United Nations' areas are almost proud of the developing fact that now there is one doctor for 50,000 inhabitants.

millions life than the animals which they exist.

way of of the areas in live a more debilitated The truth is that However, there is room for encourage­ and scientific far too often we in the West ability, But I pause for a r has been wealth'.

The and technical of technological as I have said, ment.
These last few decades an age of immeasurable advance skills is breathtaking.

moment to ask the House to conside that perhaps take for granted today the simple things for granted car, the hospital.

wrong in the household "We will send for the plumber."

is sick we a member of the household simply say, "We had better the doctor."

· what we like to call of life.


We take the motor has gone we simply say, the bus, the train, If something send for Or if I a responsibility to what the fact Despite to sketch advances, they are puny in the global of what we are attempting.

is sought to be done and I have a responsibility, I believe, this what is involved, morning it is that really what is being achieved.
with 20 or 30 that, making comparisons years ago, there are remarkable nevertheless recognition have also, I believe, my Motion is concerned show, because with the youth of our grammar schools schools and comprehensive modem schools, university applauded.

the House to think that this Motion is in any way a criticism done at university what is being done.

applaud What I wish to see happen is the co­ level-which I would not wish anyone in what is being done at is to be of what is being level.

Indeed.
Indeed.

and secondary I and.

indeed, and aid coming from our under­ be extended and graduates operation · to graduates perhaps our State schools from there to other forms of organisa­ I tions as well.

Therefore, to outline the have this responsibility and to point to of the situation, gravity which, I the bright star of opportunity during the will reveal itself believe, · I have to make later.
remarks I believe It is a sobering thought to consider live in abject of mankind that in Asia, in Africa, sheer want plagues that two-thirds poverty, America.

human beings.

or angry about their rates, rise in taxation.

or about a in Latin millions of They are not concerned They are too concerned of human All these things to us come quite yet for millions impossi ­ naturally, beings these are an absolute They are terms which they do bility.
not understand, out the simple light, we accept, are things people these are things let alone use.

Vve carry of switching exercise the w.c. chain; these yet for miUions which they have or pulling on a of 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 878 Overseas Service 877 not even heard of.

For multi-millions of our fellow creatures live in squalor, and darkness.

They are born in darkness, they live in darkness, and they die in darkness.
If I may say so, speaking parenthetically, I cannot imagine a more explosive situation, which is growing up in this respect, and which, in my view, is far more political differences.

explosive than As I have a1reaay mentioned, the Uni•ted Na,tions have described this year of 1965 as Inrternational Co-operation Year, and t1hey decided eaTly in the 'sixties that this decade should be known as the Development Decade.

Progress has been made.


There has been a flow of goods and services and grants and long-term capital loans to many parts of the world, to many of the developing countries, but I submit that capital by itself is not a yardstick of success, and that it is rather the development of skills and the ability to use assets that we ought to be concerned about.
Progress in this, an increase in <training and in institutions in co-operation between Govern and ments, has been going on, but i<t has been going on too slowly.

We have got to get a move on in this direction.


I would recommend to the House ,that for those of us who are deeply interested in this subject, and I believe that all of us ought to have some form of interest, it might be a good thing if we took time out now and then to read some of the works of Professor Ritchie Calder, who is such a humane authority.

I ought to pay tribute, too, to the work of organisations wi,thin the United Nations.

I know thait titles like U.N.E.S.C.O.

and U.N.I.C.E.F.
and U.N.I.C.E.F.

perhaps do not carry a great deal of meaning to many people, but they are examples of the most sensible behaviour mankind has ever embarked on, and I would like to pay tribute to them here today.

There has been an expanded pro gramme of technical assistance to help people prepare themselves in the de veloping countries so that they contribute to their own progress.

There is, un fommrutely, a grerut paradox here.


Many of rthe younger countries assisted by technical aid discovered, when they be gan to investigate their own resources, that whilst our and other Western countries had given the help and assist ance of top-flight engineers and people who can draw up blueprints, and build power plants, factories, hospitals and railroads, they lacked the artisans to carry out the grass root work.
An example of this imbalance is the Central African farmers who produce 100,000 tons of cotton and yet have to import every yard of cloth.

They export the cotton, and this is a good thing, but one would have thought that they were entitled to have kept a proportion back with which to clothe themselves.

This is one very small, almost miniscule, ex ample of where we have, in some degree, missed the point.

There are many ex amples where we have failed in this towards developing respect particular countries.
The nations of the West and the United Nations generally have provided scient ists, but have forgotten the bricklayers, carpenters, joiners and concreters, men who understand and know how to operate a concrete mixer from behi!Ild and in front.

We have provided doctors, but have forgotten the nursing orderlies and tJhe boil.er men in itille hospital.

We have forgotten sometimes, the nursing aids.

Engineers have been provided but fitters and are forgotten.
scientists, but not enough laboratory assistants to sustain them.

turners There This brings me to the essence of my Motion, because I believe that it is the young people in our schools, who are not necessarily going to a university who can fill this urgent gap.

The young people of our secondary modern, grammar and the comprehensive schools come into picture in a very important way.

I would like to explain the manner and method of co-operation existing between our universities and universities over seas.
British universities have made a remarkable contribution in helping to staff universities in developing countries.

They have also initiated, to a degree, co operation between universities overseas and those in this country.

We have an inter-university council, the Association of Commonwealth Universities and the role of the universities in this country.

There is the committee for university secondment.


I would like to see estab lished a committee of secondment which embraces secondary modern, grammar and comprehensive schools along the same lines.

our 879 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 880 relevant to ensure [MR.

MOLLOY.]

The role of university secondment is particulaDly to my proposi tion.
Its aims are threefold, to dis information about overseas seminate needs, tihe existmg machinery of recruitment is adjusted to meet new needs and to create conditions in which new rorms of co-operation are In addition to this, there is possible.

the provision of news-letters.

This maahinery provides us with an example of what could be done for school-leavers in State schools.

that there spreads a From this sort of co-operation and activity relationship between cities.
Many local towns and boroughs ihave adopted twinning systems by which they have become associated with cities on the Continent.

This is a good thing and our universi,ties have gone little further.

Durham and Leeds a Universities have an association with Sierra Leone because Durham and Leeds have sent specialists to that part of t,he woDld.
Edinburgh University has a medical link with Baroda, India, Liver pool University is in the process of form ing a link in the faculty of chemistry with the University of Abadan.

Swansea College, of the University of Wa]es, is in the process of forging a link in physics, cihemis,try and languages wi,t.h Nsukka.

Swansea, of course, is qui,te a remarkable It produces Welsh M.P.s with a town.

l~iberal smattering of Irisih antecedents for English constirtuencies.
WitJh this background I believe that we can create a form of machinery for a:H our schools.

What has been created in the field of universities should be translated now to our State schools.

In our comprehensive, grammar and secon dary modern schools we have sources of buibbling vifaLity.

We have our future tradesmen, craftsmen, artisans and acade mics who can fill trbe gap I have been speaking of.

~.

Sir Spencer Summers (Aylesbury): the hon.


Gentleman not include Will independent schools, also, in trhis list?

Mr. Molloy : I am willing to include any school willing to make a sensible and useful contribution to what I have in mind.

There is just as much vim and vigour in independent schools as there is in grammar and comprehensive schools.
Tihe Prime Minister, at the Labour Party conference at Scarborough, said : "In an advanced world, which had long by-passed the steam engine in favour of oil and electricity as a means of propulsion, we ought to be giving more thought to developing the 11esearch in this country for producing a little simple, one or two horse-power steam engine, because that is what the world needs, able to use local fuels aod capable of lifting water from that ditch to those fields a few hundted yards away.
Swift saw the answer and the problem in ' Gulliver's Travels ', 250 years ago, when he said ' Whoever could make two ears of corn or two blades of grass to grow upon a spot of ground where only one grew before, would deserve better of mankind and do more essential service to his country than the whole race of politicians put together'."
I hope that the House will respond and join with me in proving that Dean Swift was wrong in one respect and that the politicians, at least in this country, wish to make their contribution as well.

The youngsters about whom I am talking would like to go out into a foreign fiekl, not to die, but to explore life.

They would like to go out to have the oppor tunity to tinker with an engine which will lift water from a stream to a field.
This is what they would like to do, and I believe that the criticisms made of our youngsters are not valid.

The essence of the criticism is that the youth of Britain today is determined to enjoy life.

It is said that our youngsters prefer guitars to guns.

This is a good thing.

I have some experience of youngsters, in many organisations, and I think that we ought to be proud of our youth.

They have wide interests and, above all, they have a remarkable degree of guts and gumption.
From time to time the oversplash ot vitality goes in the wrong direction.

and we hear criticisms of the so-called Mods and Rockers.

All the Mods and Rockers do not come into the categories referred to by magistrates and some of our national newspapers when the oversplash happens to take a spin in the wrong direction.

The youngsters of today have guts, courage and amazing vitality, and I hope that the Motion, if it is accepted, will help to exploit that vitality.
I believe that our youngsters have a right to be put on Parliament's agenda for discussion and for examination to see how they can help to make their contribution to world decency and good behaviour.

I believe that this Motion will help both our young people and 881 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 882 those overseas to achieve that desirable goal.

Let us take all our fifth and sixtb formers into our confidence.
Let us pro vide them with opportunities to exploit their vitality and their inherent good I pay tribute to the work of Volun ness.

'tary Service Overseas.

It is doing a very good job, brut tlhe Motion goes further than that because it includes all forms of service.

I come now to the practical objects I do not wish which I have in mind.

to go into detail because, if my hon.


Friend is prepared to accept the argu ment in principle, I do not wish to tie him down too rigidly to my ideas of this vitality should be exploited, how and how we should keep our sc!hoo~ leavers informed about what they can do.

I think that we should have some form of register for school leavers.
This will enable us to keep in touch with them when they leave school and when they have taken up some form of additional training, or perhaps some form of If they are on such a apprenticeship.

register, we can keep in touch wr~h tJhem and advise 11hem how they can use 1:heir lmow1edge and skill:s in rtibe dev,eloping countries.

I hope that my hon.

Friend wi:H give t'his proposal some oonsiideration.

We ought to encourage and channel this latent artisan force in our schools today.
We ought to give a lead, not only in our schools, but in other organi sations.

If we start in our schools, other organisations will wish to become asso ciated with what we are doing.

Church and chapel organisations, and sports clubs will wish to be associated with If we tell our school our endeavours.
leavers how they can contribute to over seas development, this will encourage other organisations to associate them selves with such a scheme which I should like to describe as an adventure of purposeful endeavour.

I have particular knowledge of young boys and girls in a comprehensive school, in a secondary modern school, and in a grammar school.

For about eight years I have been a governor of Holland Park Co-educational School.

It has a remarkable division line running through its catchment area.
Members who have knowledge of the area will that Kensington High Street realise divides the catchment area ; on one side Vol.

712 there is South Kensington where the pro fessional people live, and Fulham, where it may be said that the artisan population lives, and on the other there is Padding ton, where one finds some of the blacker spots of London.
Children of all nationalities and colour attend that school, and it does one's heart good to visit the playground and see Gentiles, Jews, black, white and yellow children playing together.

One comes acro-ss a variety of accents English accents, European accents, and accents from all p~rts of the world.

They all play together, fight together, and make it up together.
Children who entered the school six years ago, at the age of 11 or so, have now grown into young men and women of 17 and 18, and we should all take cognisance of the example of this school.

Children with all sorts of backgrounds-economic and religious-play together, and there remarkable degree o.f decent is a It is, of course, necessary behaviour.
occasionally to discipline the pupils, just as in any other school, but one does not come across the more vicious things which are beginning to creep into our educational system, and which I deplore.

I also have experience of Stanhope Secondary Modem Boys School.

The careers master there has given me infor mation about some of the careers entered by pa~t students.

They include the medi cal profession, the Civil Service, and all forms of research.

Some orf t!he boys have gone on rto teoh nioal ooilleges.
Many have ~aken up craft apprenticeships.

Some have gone into the Armed Forces, while others have gone into the police, into farming, into plumb ing and into engineering.

teaching, banking, I also have knowledge of Elliots Green Grammar School, at Northolt.

Young sters from there have gone into teaching, scientific engineering, universities, bank ing, the Civil Service, the police, and agriculture.

What is particularly interesting is that in the end there is a similarity among these three schools.
I cannot imagine a more concrete case for the abolition of the 11-plus than my experience of the end product of grammar schools, second ary modern schools and comrpreberu;ive schools.

The pupils in these schools in cline towards careers dealing witll people.

p '1 883 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 884 [MR.

MOLLOY.]

I therefore submit that all three establish ments of which I have some knowledge are veritable centres of initiative.

My idea is not intended to shake the world.


Rather, it is an attempt to bind the nations together in tolerance and It is an attempt to widen the sanity.
opportunities for people to assist in over seas development and to enable our youngsters, particularly those in grammar schools, secondary modern schools, and comprehensive schools, to make their contribution to what I would like to describe as the storming and capture, with moral zeal and dedicated action, of the commanding heights of world co-opera tion.

11.40 a.m. Sir Spencer Summers (Aylesbury): I can hardly think that anybody will seek to oppose the Motion which bas just been moved.
Many of us should count our selves fortunate that the hon.

Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) has chosen this subject to take advantage of his luck in the Ballot.

In commending the Motion to the House he drew atten tion to 1:lhe ext-ell't to whioh squalor, ill health and under-nourishment exist in the world today, and implied that a move such as he has in mind could make a great contribution towards solving the problem.
He also very properly alluded to the value of the increased understand ing between nations which arises from young people ooming together.

Because I want to confine myself to a very small part of the subject I start by saying that I hope that nobody will in terpret anything I say as meaning that I do not attach as much value as the hon.

Member does to those aspects of the subject that he has brought before us.
I want to use this opportunity to say a few things which one does not often have the opportunity of saying in the House, and to applaud the splendid development that has taken place in this country, both among school-leavers and graduates, in developing Voluntary Service Overseas.

The information given in the latest Answer to a Question on the subject is that in this year about 1,200 graduates and 400 school-leavers plan to be sent abroad- a total of about 1,600.
There are two aspects of this type of contribu- tion made by young people.

There is the aspect of the value which this work is to them and the aspect of the value which it is to the country to which they go.

We ought not to underrate the value to them of an experience of this kind.
A great deal is being done for young people in Britain at present, by boys' clubs, Scouts, the Boys' Brigade and the like, but there is a slight tendency to regard these organisations as no more than being valuable in keeping young people out of mischief and, perhaps, going a stage further and introducing them to a w.ise use of leisure.

In my opinion we should go a gr,eat dea~ further rtlha:n that.
Much is being done for young people, but the time has come for us to lay greater emphasis upon the va.Iue of work which can be done by them.

There is no doubt that service by youth, whether at borne or abroad, is immensely valuable.

My experience of young people, derived from 20 years' associa tion with Outward Bound, is that they have one paramount and passionate de sire, namely, to grow up, to be seen to be growing up, and to be accepted as grown-up people.
That is why those organisations which deal with young people find that if they are offered strong meat it is welcomed by them.

They re spond to it, because it indicates that they are being treated as grown-ups.

In ser vice abroad there is a manifest indica tion that people are being valued for more than their years of experience, and the scope for the discharge of responsi bility in overseas work is even greater than it is at home.
I know that it is fashionable to con trast the effort made in this country with that made in the United States and to say that, excellent as the Peace Corps no doubt is, we should go about ou,r busi I do ness in a somewhat different way.

not dissent from that conclusion, but in my opinion there is a slight tendency which imply dis paragement of the Peace Corps because it is seen as something which we ought not to copy.
is unfortunate-to I bad some experience of the early operations of the Peace Corps which has given me the conviction not only that it does an immense amount of good for the countries to which it goes but that it has 885 Overseas Se,vice 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers} 886 generated in the United States an im mense feeling of service and inspiration in respect of what the young generation I came in the 1960s and 1970s can do.
into the matter because those who were planning to send young Americans over seas- in many cases to countries where there was no ice water or steam beat felt that the contrast would be so great that the experience of an Outward Bound course before they went would fortify them and strengthen their abilities to enable them to discharge their duties overseas.

T hey were sent to the Peace Corps field training centre in Puerto Rico to which I bad the pleasure of going.
I have had reports from there since, and there is no doubt that a tremendous sense of dedication and pride bas been created among those who serve the Peace Corps.

I mention this not to indicate that I the proposition that we dissent from should follow different methods, but to try to put right the idea of disparagement that is sometimes created, for the reasons that I have given.
recruited Our people are through various organisations, and it is interesting to note that whereas a Peace Corps recruit costs over £3,000 to train, send abroad and look after during this two years' service, the cost of a graduate from this country is no more than £650, and for a school-leaver no more than £400.
We must not lose sight of the importance of the financial aspects of this matter, because if enthusiasm is generated by the proper suggestion that young people at school should have these opportunities brought to their notice, and they respond, somebody must organise them, perhaps train them, and certainly select them, and decide for what jobs overseas they are suitable, and so forth.

A substantial financial responsibility is involved.
I am glad that the last Government decided to increase the proportion of the cost which the Government were willing to bear, and I am glad that this Government, as I understand that are arrangement.

continuing it, During my association with Outward Bound I have had occasion, almost every other year for a long time now, to visit schools, run under Outward Bound auspices overseas, to which V.S.O.

re cruits have been seconded for a period of a yeair.

These young men have been Vol.


712 immensely valuable in those types of job to which they have been seconded.

One of the difficulties of service by youth in Britain is the fact that positions of re sponsibility given to people at 18 or 19 years of age can produce an insufficiently large age gap between those who are supervising or controlling and those who are supervised or controlled.
A range of three or four years is very often insuffi cient to establish that respect for autho rity which young people must have if they are to accept guidance.

This age gap is much less difficult to overcome abroad, and particularly so in Africa, because it is no reflection on indigenous population of Africa the where mass education has not yet had its effect, to say that someone of 18 in this county may well correspond to someone a great dea-1 older in Afi"ica.
Certainly the right kind of person with the right tolerances and the like oan, even at the age o.f 18, exerit cons-iderabie in fluence over and attract considerable respect from those in Africa much older than himself.

This has been borne out in practice a1: ~he schools wihioh I have vis~ted.
I hope, therefore, that the Government will continue to give every support to those admirable people who are organising these school-leavers, and graduates for that matter, because there are many cases where people going abroad can show the value of actual physical work -taking off their coats and doing it themselves-so dispersing the impression that the white man in Africa has thrived on the proposition that others do the work and he does the organising of it.
There may be many opportunities for that notion to be dispelled.

I welcome very much the opportunity of touching on this subject and I hope that full support will be given by the Government to the idea ubat lies behind the Motion.

11.52 a.m. Mr. W. T. Williams (Warrington): l am sure that the whole House will join wi1Jh me in oongraoul,ating my boo.

Friend tibe Memiber for Ealiing, Noiruh (Mr. MoHoy) on his good fo11tune in winniing tJhe BaJ!

:lot and being able to present his Motion to the House.

Hon.
Hon.

Members will equa,Uy, I feel sw-e, join with me in expressing to my hon.

Friend our con- P 2 l 1 887 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 888 [MR.

WILLIAMS.]

gratulations not only on his good fortune, but on the delightful and interest ing way in which he presented the sub ject the consideration of the House.

that he had chosen for The matters of which my hon.

Friend spoke are matters of genuine interest to all Members of the House.
The sort of debate which be has initiated is the sort of debate that we have only too rarely in the House, but one which I have no doubt will reflect credit on all who take part in it.

those I itlhrink that iit was Hobbes w:ho said in his " Leviathan " that the life of the poor was short, brutish and nasty.
Although we in Britain have many problems, the people of our country have succeeded, perhaps better in most than countries of the world, during the last 140 years or so in lifting themselves up, almost by their own bootstraps, from the position of whiob Hobbes spoke, when the child of working-lass parents was born in a hovel, lived in servitude to the factory or coal owner and ended bis days only too often after a short, unhappy life in " the big house on the bill " to the position in which, by and large, we have a standard of living which makes it un necessary for us to envy other people in the world.
Great privileges, however, impose upon the people who have them great responsi bilities, and there are still in the world vast numbers of our fellow men of whom Hobbes's definition is still only too true.

Squalor, ignorance, poverty, disease and death are still the constant companions of far too many of our fellow men.
Bound as we are together in the bundle of life, it must be that for so long as these grim companions accompany so many of our fellows, the impact of their misery wiiH affect rtihe quality and the tenor of the life of us all.

We in the world have learned to live with fear, and, as far as we have been able, we have countered fear with force.

We have built massive weapons of destruction so that the mutual terror of it all bas brought a sort of unease between the nations which we call peace.
And yet there are few people who, although they recognise the challenge of our time, have yet the courage to fight the world's despair with the weapons of peace and succour.

The great efforts of our time, --1. l r I I, ' t f ~ ~ beyond the protection of our own standards, are surely those of succour, of knowledge and of a sense of belonging.
The conflict that exists between men arises not only from fear but from need, and the need of the world is a challenge to us all, and especially to those of us who have great privileges.

We must meet that challenge not only with the weapons of fear and force but also of co-operation and good will.

Before the present Government were elected to power our spokesmen often talked of devoting something like I per cent.
of tihe na.tional budgeit ro the task of relieving the vast area of human misery and human need.

I recognise, of course, that the Government once in power have had many problems to face, some of which, we are told, struck them more hardly than they knew.

Yet the contribu tion that is to be made by the Govern ment to the need of the world is, perhaps, the Government's greatest challenge.
The challenge to the Government is to relate the pledges that they gave before the General Election to the contribution that they are now making to this end.

In his Motion my hon.

Friend invites the Government " to ensure that information and opportunities for all forms of service in overseas develop ment" shall be made available.
It would be of interest to the House and, I believe, to the country and the world to know what part of our budget in toto is now devoted to the work of overseas development and education in all its forms.

If we were to devote I per cent.

of the national budget for these purposes we should be contributing something like £60 million a year or more.

the The organisation whioh most part icu larly i.n the voluntary field does work in International overseas service is Voluntary Service.
The organisation in Britain has to work on a budget of little more than one-third of £1 million.

Yet, witih ~haJt limited budget, and, I under stand, a total staff in Britain of fewer than 20 people, the organisation suc ceeded last year in placing 321 British volunteers in sihort-iterm overseas projects of lllltemational of which the I.V.S.

is the British branch.

the Civil Service In 1964, the I.V.S.


sent out 40 volun teers to under-developed areas of the world, where they played their part in l 1 ~ ....,... ~ ~ T"""' ~ 889 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 890 teaching, in working, in nursing, building, agriculture and social work, giving at least a year's service and receiving in return nothing more than their fares, simple food and accommodation and very moderate amounts of pocket money.

Valuable as is thait work, the fact is that the I.V.S.
in putting forward its pro posafa in 1965-66 cannot look any £m,ther than t!he possibility of sending 80 to 100 volunteers for long-service work and 400 to 500 people for short-service work of anything between three weeks and 12 weeks.

Tremendous need exiSlts over and beyond anything that the I.V.S.

could do or could even hope to do to ameliorate the misery and tragedy in the lives of so many people squalor and poverty.
That being so, I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will give us a pioture of what, if anything, the Govern ment propose to do to meet more immedi ately and more generously the work of organisations of this kind and to see whether it is possible, within a budget for overseas aid to which the Govern ment are turning their attention, for the Government to make use of organisations of this kind and to facilitate their worR and underpin it.
living in It is true that through the Lockwood Committee the Government make avail able sums of money for the assistance of overseas voluntary organisations, but in relation to t,he tremendous need, tJb.e oon tribution made, particulady in ,this volun I hope that my tary field, is miniscule.

hon.

Friend can give some encouragement to these organisations and some hope that in future years the Government will make far geart:er use of their services.

I add to the plea made by my hon.


Friend the Member for Ealing, North that within the field of Government activity, also, the Government will encourage tihose of us who look to them for the implementation of their undertakings and that at some time they will seek to make available muoh more substantial sums of money for the purpos,es of overseas development in the undeveloped areas of the world.

In recent years it has been my privi lege, with other hon.
Members, to visit areas like Africa and the Middle East and there to see the tragedy of vast numbers of people who are living in ignorance and squalor, who know only too well that it is to be without comfort and in many cases even wi~houit hope.

Vol.
Vol.

172 To see the tragedy of their lives and the attempts made, often against over whelming odds, by voluntary organisa tions of the kind of which I have spoken, and by the United Nations agencies, and recognising that the part played by all these organisations is but touching the fringe of the great human need that they attempt to meet, is to be faced with a situation of hopelessness, of despair, or inadequacy, which may never be remedied except by vastly increased Government aid.
and to spreading, thrnugh trade unions, We in this country have played a not discreditable part in sending over seas countries people who can govern and give leadership engineers, doctors, and the like, but we have failed to pro vide artisans and semi-skilled who can I ask the Minis teach unskilled people.
ter whether and what cons·ideration he the has given tJbrougih sohools t!he publicat ions of voluntary organisa tions, as are open to the Government, what has been done and what it is proposed to do to make more widespread the opportuni ties for overseas service among semi skilled persons ; and to link with that for it must be linked- what his Depart• ment is hoping to achieve in making it possible for these people to go, by pro viding them with an income and means of living while they are abroad.
other means such and Although it is tremendously to the credit of the voluntary organisations who make great sacrifices, as do the people who go to these countries, I suppose it is not possible for large numbers of people whom we ought to be sending to be able to live on the same basis as the volunteers and to go for a year or so.

Human misery knows no national or racial barriers.


Human need is equal and its clamant demand is equally great whether the hands raised or the voices ca,lling out are tihose of µink, brown or black people.
Even though we are not without our problems in Britain, we recognise the grievousness of the situation abroad, and recognise tliat, as we are one human family bound in the bundle of human life, in the end the only way by which we can live in the world in peace is by men and women working and living together in good will.

P3 .._ I 891 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 892 is [MR.

WILLIAMS.)
WILLIAMS.)

The evidence of good will the willingness on the part of the Govern ment to whom we look for a lead in giving to the under-privileged and the under-developed, the poor, whose lives are now so short and brutish and nasty, the opportunity and the hope of being brought properly into the human family.

!

(Jhe humb1e and 12.10 p.m. Mr. Philip Goodhart (Beckenham): I was a little surprised to hear the hon.
and learned Member for Warrington (Mr. W. T. Williams) lending his distinguished support to the plea by the hon.

Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) to extend greatly the number of semi-skilled and unskilled workers who are sent abroad by this country for voluntary work.
Although, without any doubt, the demands for skilled workers, particularly skilled teachers, is very high, indeed in I cannot believe ,atiable, that any advantage will be obtained by spending large sums of money to send semi-skilled to Nairobi, Mauritius and bricklayers Bombay.

There is already a vast number of such men in these countries who have difficulties as it is in finding employment.

It is the skilled men for whom there is a demand and not the semi-skilled and unskilled.
I was interested in the remarks of the hon.

Member for Ealing, North, about the Holland Park comprehensive school.

I happen to live in the road almost adjacent to the school.

I can certainly join with him in paying tribute to the ingenuity and energy of these children, some of which, alas, is only spent in snapping wireless aerials off the cars parked in front of my house.

If the hon.

Member can do anything to get my wireless aerial back, I should be very pleased.
I am sure that many of these pupils will go 6orward in time ~o do voluntary work of perhaps a more constructive nature, not only locally but overseas as well.

The hon.

and learned Member for Warrington and the hon.

Member for Ealing, North, during the election cam paign and in the years before the last election, joined with other membei:s of the Labour Party in saying that a great increase should be made in this country's I doubt contribution to overseas aid.

whether any hon.
whether any hon.

Members sitting oppo- in site dissented in any way from that cry, but unfortunately, as in so many cases, it looks as though the practice of a Labour Government will be very different indeed from the promises which were held out.

I shall be exceedingly surprised if the overall contribution made by Great Britain to overseas aid and investment in the under-developed countries does not this year decline.
There will certainly be a change in the very sharp increases which have come about recent years.

Certainly, on Monday, we were given the stock words on 1Jhe subj,ect by 1lhe Ohan cellor of the Exchequer during the debate on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill.

We heard of the way in which the operation of the Finance Bill will reduce Vhe amoll1llt orf investment overseas, of which a considerable amount would go to the under-developed countries.
I hope that a similar fate will not befall the pro programme for overseas volunteers, in which a very sharp increase is being undertaken.

I think that it ought to avoid the poised Government axe, because ~t is comparatively cheap, certainly for the amount of publicity which it receives and the amount of good will which it generates.

If there is an increase in the sort of publicity which the hon.
Member for Ealing, North, wants and a continuation of the great extension which we have had in the last five years and which was channelled so effectively by my right hon.

Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr), when he was at the Department of Technical Co-operation, there will be considerable problems in the Voluntary Service Overseas movement.
Expansion will undoubtedly bring very great prob lems in its train, of which the first which we shall have to tackle seriously will be the problem of leadership and care over seas.

I am delighted at the way in which my hon.

Friend the Member for Ayles bury (Sir S. Summers) talked about the contribution which the American Peace It has tackled this Corps has made.

problem of local leadership and support for volunteers in an extremely imagina tive fashion.
In every country in which the Peace Corps operates there is a local director, often a man of very distinguished capabilities.

For instance, the leader of the Peace Corps in Nigeria was previously the headmaster of the best American 893 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 894 public school.

The leader of the Peace in Nepal has climbed Mount Corps Everest, which must give him a certain amount of local prestige.
In country after country, there are local Peace Corps directors, men of the highest calibre.

backed up by an organisation which some of us might think is excessively large, but which is certainly vigorous and efficient.

It is miraculous that, in view of all the enemies which America has in the world, certainly in the under-developed coun tries, there has been, during the last four or five years, almost no local friction involving American Peace Corps volun I can think of one unfortunate teers.
incident in Nigeria about four years ago, but none since then.

A great deal of this achievement is due to the fact that they have first-class people in the overseas countries who can look after the volun teers and step in if there is any sign of trouble.

Naturally, with our smaller number of volunteers, it is impossible for us to duplicate this form of organisa tion.
In the past, the care of our volunteers in overseas territories has often been left, on a rather hit-or-miss basis, to the embassies or High Commissions or to employees of the British Council, all of whom have a full-time job of their own to do although, because of the value of the work of these volunteers, they devote much of their own free time to looking after them.
As the number of our volun teers increases sharply, it will be more and more difficult for people in the em bassies and High Commissions and British Council employees to do this work on a part-time basis, and I hope that the overseas representatives of the Ministry of Overseas Development will devote a considerable amount of their time in future to looking after our volunteers.

its scope The next problem is that of selection.


I have had an opportunity of looking at the selection work done by the American Peace Corps, and is quite staggering.

An enormous machine exists for checking references.

Ten doctors are working full time on the headquarters staff alone.
I was assured when I was there, some months ago, that to keep an annual flow of 8,500 volunteers in the field would require a full-time selection staff at headquarters of no fewer than 150, most of whom would have to have ps)'chiatric training.

Vol.

712 There is not much need for us to try to duplicate this sort of madbrun.e in 1Jhis country.
One can almost say that in the past anyone who bas volunteered bas vir tually selected himself, because so little was known about the scheme that to know about the American selectors would call a high degree of motivation and also great in genuity in bearing about the scheme.

But as the publicity and knowledge of our scheme increases, it will be more im portant for us to improve the selection machinery.

it at all suggested what The next problem is that of training.
It seems to me that the volume of training given to many of our volunteers going overseas is inadequate.

I know of a case not very long ago in which five volun teers, all school-leavers, went to a country in Latin America to teach English in the schools.

Not one of them had had any experience or training of any sort in teaching, and I am informed that not one O!f tihem knew any Spain~sh.

whioh was tihe local l,ang1mge.


In fact, it all worked out splendidly, and they made a valuable contribution in the 12 months they were there, but this was a matter of chance and good luck and it could have gone badly wrong.

One needs greater training before volunteers go out these countries.

to Two years or more ago the American Peace Corps received a request from the Indonesian Government to supply a num ber of athletics coaches.
The American Peace Corps decided that they would try to do this, and about 18 coaches were assembled and given a 14-week course in Indonesian at a university.

The coaches were divided into groups and put in rooms of four, in each of which there was an Indonesian student.

They ate at tables of three or four, and at every table there was an Indonesian student.

Every morn ing and every evening Indonesian music and were Indonesian channelled into their rooms.
broadcasts At t1he end of three-and-a-1half moll!ths, these coaches, who had previously had no knowledge of Indonesia, could get their views across in Indonesian to the Indo nesians.

I can think of forms of training which I would not want given to the Indonesians at this moment, but it seems no bad thing that the Americans under took to teach them to take a running P4 895 Overseas Service [MR.

GOODHART.]

14 MAY 1965 jump.

I understand that these coaches remain in Indonesia at present.
This is one example of the depth of effort, drive and imagination which the American Peace Co11ps put into their t.1"aming programme.

Of course, iit can go badly stray.

A distant cousin of mine vol'l.mt,eered for 1lhe Peace Corps some yeaTs ago.

He was tirarined in Swaibili and then seDit to iteaah in a school in East Africa rin an a:rea where Swa,hi!li never bad been spoken and never will be spoken.

Nevertiheless, I have slhown the effo11ts W\hioh have been made.
Our equivalent these enormous to courses in America is four or five days at the Dartford College of Physical Educa tion.

I have the programme for the last course.

I am sure that it was a very good course, and that the people con cerned with it are extremely hardworking and dedicated to their work, but as an introduction to a year's work overseas it is not, I think, adequate at all.

If we are to have a greatly expanded pro gramme, we must pay much more atten tion to the problems of training.
Sir S. Summers : When my hon.

Friend is drawing a.ttenition to tlhe in,adequiacy of training, has he in mind the school-leaver Is not the graduate or the graduate?

comparable with his Peace Corps counterpart, the school leaver?

rather than Mr. Goodhart: Pe1.1haips so, but I should have thought that the school leaver required more training than the graduate.

It might be argued that at 18 one is more adaptable than at 21.
At the same time, at 18 one is obviously less mature and less able to cope with the problems that arise.

That is why it might be said that the school-leaver needs as much initial training as the graduate.

Dr. Wyndham Davies (Birmingham, Perry Barr) : Would my hon.
Friend not agree that it is important to enlarge the flow of graduates into voluntary service overseas, that it is this need that should be stressed at the moment and that, to do this, extra Government action, as well as assistance from the universities, is needed?

Mr. Goodhart : I agree that it is on the graduate side that one hopes for the ~ i ~ (School Leavers) 896 greatest advance.

This was foreshadowed in the programme laid down by my hon.
Friend when he was at the Department It is there of Technical Co-operation.

that taking the greatest expansion is place.

One must remember that to get 1,500 graduates from this country-a pro gramme which, I think, is by no means excessive-requires almost 3 per cent.

of our graduates coming out of the uni versities in the next couple of years.

Although the numbers may sound small, we should be under no illusion about the size of the contribution we are hoping to achieve.
We must also re member that the number of graduates we have is much smaller than the num ber available in America and l!hat to try to achieve a graduate contribution com parable with America would require much greater help.

If we are to have increased training, leadership and support in countries over seas, increased work done on selection and greatly increased publicity of the sort the hon.

Member for Ealing, North wants, it would be much easier to do that in a nationalised as well as a national effort.
In other words, with an overall umbrella organisation like the American Peace Corps there would be likely to be greater results compared with trying to co-ordinate the work of a lot of volun tary organisations.

I ibave seen something of vhe work of the American Peaoe Corps, as a resulit orf whioh I am perlb.a,ps less friglhtened of nationiaHsa1foin in this sphere '1Jhan are a number of my hon.

Friends.
Friends.

How ever, I entirely support the views in the pamphJ.eit prepaTed by my noble Friend tlhe Member £or Hertford (Lord Ba:lniel), in whioh !he stated : "We are convinced through that volun1ary service, and in particular voluntary service organised not by government but by voluntary organisations, has a distinative and peculiarly valuable part to play.
For the overseas country, the help given by volunteers should come with an enthusiasm, a freshness and friendliness, which is particularly It is also, we believe, less liable attractive.

to arouse fears of ' neo-colonialism ' so often engendered by purely governmental pro• grammes of technical assistance."

I agree wiitJh 11ha,t and I believe thait it bhere is complete nationahsa<tion of tihe volunoo.ry service overseas movement something valuaible will result.
H &houild ---- __.._, 897 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 898 poverty must be in the forefront of our be 'llhe r6Ie Oil' the Government to bu:tJtress tJhe voluntary organisations and improve minds.

co-ordination buJt, at rtJhe same time, to leave ~em to do 'llhe exceHent job rtihey aire now doing.

Membe,rs agreed with the closing words in the pampihlet : The fact that the Northern Hemisphere -because it is a question of North and I ,tihink that aU hon.
South rather than West and East-bas higher the living standards, yet Southern Hemisphere people are living in abject poverty, must remind us of the phrase used by Lord Beveridge: " ... living in poverty, squalor, want, disease and ignorance."

We must increasingly concern ourselves with these problems as we move forward to various scientific changes.

in "For some people a period of service over- seas is perhaps the most effective means by which this desire "- to serve- " can find expression.
It is to give them the opportunity to enrich their lives by helping others, to meet in so doing the need for de veloping countries, that we must, with imagina tion, expand our voluntary service effort overseas.

Not only do we provide a channel for service, but we build a bridge between those two worlds- the rich and the poor."

12.37 p.m. Mr. loan L. Evans (Birmingiham, Yaroley): T1he hon.

Member for Becken ham (Mr. Goodhart) made an i!llrteresrting and informartive contribution to t!he de bate.
While he dealt primarily witih tihe American Peace Corps, I wili not de velop tihat tiheme, except to say tJhart the exrperience of rtihe Corps must be of value in considering 'llhe corntribution whioh we can make.

I congratu1la-te my hon.

Friend tihe MeimibeT for Ealing, North (Mr. Moll.oy) on tini·tiating rtihis in<tere91:ing de bate.

Lt is a good sign for the future tlbat whe!


'eas we in Par liament are divided on many impotitanrt and virtai[ issues in polirt-ics and economics, on rtihis question of assisiting the under-developed areas there is almost complete unanimity.

We debated this subject at the time of the formation of the Ministry of Overseas Development.

We had another interesting debate in Committee on the Overseas Development and Service Bill.
We found that while the Government were increas ing their economic assistance to the under developed areas, hon.

Members opposite were encouraging the Government to in crease their overseas aid still further.

This augurs well for the future.

In discussing what we can do to assist overseas territories we must remember the significant move made by the Govern ment in the creation of the Ministry of Overseas Development.
This shows that on the agenda in the Cabinet the question of assisting the people of these areas will take a high priority in the years ahead.

There is no doubt that while there are many confronting humanity, the huge problem of world problems serious 'I Reference has been made to the work of the United Nations Agencies, such as U.N.I.C.E.F.
and U.N.E.S.C.O., and it is significant that this Government should have appointed a Minister to the United Nations, which must inevitably play an increasing part in seeing that the more developed nations help the developing countries in the Southern Hemisphere.

Further, the Government have appointed a Minister of Disarmament.

If we are to devote more thought to helping these countries, and if we are to give them increasing aid, we must have regard to our economic resources.
It is tragic that we should be living in a world that is spending about £50,000 million on an arms race that no one wants and should think that we are being good if we devote I per cent.

of that sum to those in need.

The world must think more and more about solving these people's problems and of getting away from the arms race where so much of our resources is being wasted.
Those three aspects-the creation of a Ministry of Overseas Development, the appointment of a Minister to the United Nations Organisation and of a Minister of Disarmament-show that this Govern ment are realising the need to move towards greater internationalism.

'Dhoug,ht must also be given ,to increas ing ornr economic as weH as our financial aid.

Public opinion at 11iome must be enlightened so ,tlhait our people are wming to devote mOTe of tiheir resources to this so11t of help.
The United Nations Agencies can do a lot to help, but we must also pay tribute to the work of rn1ir ow111 volunrtary organisations.

This is Ohr,i,stJian Aid Week.

Chris6an Aid is doing good work in raising money for volunrtary work and in drawing a~tention to ithe needs of iflhe people in iflhese arnas.

d ~- · -~ --- _JI.

899 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 900 [MR.

EVANS.]
EVANS.]

Oxfam !hias done a gireart dea:1, not only in raisin,g money but in making us reaEse what a grooit deal a small contriibution can do rto ihe'lp poverity-stflicken arreas.

There is a1lso the Save ithe Ohildrreo Fund and War on Wanrt.

'I1hese organisations ta,sks of raising are dedicarted money and of spreading information :;i.

'bout tlhe a!bject conditions in which two trhikds of !humanity i:s 'living.
rtJhe rto 'I1he Motion deals priimarily not with giving fin,anciaJ help burt with giving ser vice.

11his is important.

Irt bas been truly said, " Give a man fisih and he will.

surrvive ; reach him how rto fish and he will endUTe."

To hdp 1Jhose in tlhe under deveJloped a,reas we not only need rto give them U.N.I.C.E.F.

miik and food so tllhat tJhey may remain alive, but teach them ihow to develop their natural resources so rvha,rt itihey oan move on to fu1'1 economic develorpmenrt:.
11he Motion speaks of school-ieavers, but we showd also get tJhe oo-operation of t!he youth organisa,rtions.
We have iheaird of whart is done by the universities aind by the American Peace Corps, but a1itlhougJh I agree that youngs,teTS leaving school at 16 should have rtJlris iinrormartion, they may tlhink in terms of doing this so!l:1t of work overseas only wlhen tJhey are 18 or 21, after they have been in industry or doing office work fur a year or two-- Mr. Molloy : I should like to under line rtJhait tha,rt is whart I meanrt by sug gesting a iregisrter-capturing rtJhe yO'lllilg sters just before they leave school to enrter on aipprenrticeships, and keeping in touch wiitih tihem so rtJhart larter tihey may wish ito make tlheirr 1:rade skills avail:aible in overseas development.
Mr. Evans : I do not deny tihat ~here is need ifor sohool-leavers to have this information and for tJhem to rea:lise tihe need itihere -is for our younger generartion to help t>hese people.

11he question is wihen '1:!hey are more likely to be avai!l.able, and I am glad :tihat my hon.

Friend has cleared up tihart point.

We have heard of the part that the trade union movement can play.

Trade unionists have a great deal of good will towards the people in the under-developed countries.
As those countries develop there will be need for agricultural and .- industrial organisation, and I hope that the Minister will see that the trade union movement is encouraged to play a greater part, not only in giving aid but in, per haps, seconding officers to those areas in order trade to develop democratic organisations.

The trade union movement was born in Britain and can make a great contribution.

No mention has been made of the part that the Co-operative movement can play.
That movement was founded in Britain, though whether its birthplace was Roch daile or Scotland is still a mall!ter forr at'g,u ment.

It has a membership of 30 million, and it has spread to the four corners of the world through the International Co operative Alliance.
The British Co operative movement, working in conjunc tion with the LC.A., and particularly rousing the interest of the younger people, can play a great part in the formation of co-operative credit societies, co-operative agricultural socieinies, housing societies and otJheir forms of co-operatives in vhe overseas temirtorii.es.

Voluntary Service Overseas is our counterpart of the American Peace Corps and should be given our wholehearted support.
I do not think that it should work through a Government agency.

If the work is done through a Government sponsored agency, there is the danger that people overseas might look on it wi.th some suspicion-- Mr. James Johnson (Kingston upon Hull, West): Is it not the fact that the American Peace Corps, of which I have had some slight experience in Africa, is sponsored and helped by the American jusrt vhe very Government?

opposite of what my hon.

Friend wishes to indicate.


11hart is Mr. Evans : A Government-sponsored organisation might well be suspected in the areas in which it is operating.

It is far better for such an organisation to receive Government support, but to be indepoodenrt of Government.

Otiherwise, there is the danger of people in the emerging territories regarding it as a form of neo-colonialism.
In t•his country we have the Initer n1at1ona'1 Voluntary Service Organisation whose constitution states iits pUTpose to be: "To afford opportunities by which men and women, in a spirit of friendship, international Overseas Se,vice 901 14 MAY 1965 902 understanding and voluntary discipline, may, merely of giving economic aid to tihese without regard to their race, religion, creed or COU!llwies · politics, be encouraged and enabled to give the community either individually or in groups effective voluntary service .... " · 12.53 p.m .
(School Leavers) In recent year~ we have heard of t!he development in the Western world of the ()'rulosophy, "I'm atl right Jack", to be concerned wiiih onese:lf and to have litt:le vegard for others.

However, tihis consti tution sihows that there is developing a phillosoiphy which has a regard for the wo'lrfare of others.

Huma!llity wiH be doomed itf we continue the present atti tude of iihe Wes,tern world-" So long as we are a1,1 right, we need not have regard for otthers ".
Increasingly we musrt have regard for others, and Voluntary Service Overseas is an organisation which we should seek rto support.

It gives young people tihe opportunity to give praoticrul service rto tihe needy in its short-rtem1 service projects and to do so wi1ih a group of people from many counrtries as a meaningful exeroise in international co-·operatlon and under srtandan,g.
Ii gives an opportunirty to place tihe skills of tihe individual and hi,s experi ence art tihe disposai of economicaUy less privileged people beyond Europe for an ex,tended period and to see iihe needs and opportunities in a lifetime of service in those territories, and to return 1:o Britain more conscious of 1'he great economic div,ide between our countries.
lt gives tihe indivtiduaI an opportunity ro gert a proper pet'Spective in his outlook on education, profession and vocation, and ~t gives !him an oppo,rtuuity to nu:riture and test ms ieaders1hip among a group of orbhers from obher countries.

l,t gives him an opportunity <to participate in com mittee work, a training wihioh is invalu aibie ito 'fille younger person destined to pa11ticiipate in Vhe funotions of many adult deanocrntiic constitutions.
I have seen some of it'hese groups of students coming together ia:t t!his COllirtry in work camps in Birmingham and else If we could have an ex<fuange where.

of young people, not just wiitih those from Geirmany, Fmnce, Italy and other Euro pean countries, but frrom the Asian countries, comiing together rto work on a common project, thinking not of self interest but of the well-being of mankind, tlhis positive approaoh would bring aibout tihe lasting peace whioh we aill.
des,fre and would be preferable to thinking in terms • Lord Balniel (Hertford) : I should certainly like to open by echoing the congratulations which have been extended to the hon.

Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) on having chosen for debate a subject of such interest and importance -importance to both the people of this country and to the under-developed parts of the world.
We were particularly attracted by the enthusiasm which he dis played in his remarks, and we hope that the same enthusiasm will be echoed not only in the words of the Parliamentary Secretary, but in the actions of the present Administration.

As others have done, I want to pay tribute to the voluntary societies which are organising the various schemes of voluntary service overseas, schemes for boys and girls leaving school and for graduate volunteers.
We are also anxious to pay tribute to the way in which boys and girls and young men and women are prepared to dedicate at least one year of their lives, in conditions which are often hard and difficult, to serve their fellow men and women overseas.

We are also glad to have this debate, because so much of our time is taken in considering the bad effects of the material affluence which we have in this country today.
So much of our time has to be taken in considering the problems of juvenile delinquency, or the various malaise which afflict our society.

It is good to be reminded that among our young people there is a widespread desire to be of service to others.

These young people want to match their ideals with practical action.

They want to test their self-confidence and their sense of indepen dence in an adventurous and exciting life It would be a dreadful overseas.
condemnation of society if, in the face of such a wish by our young people, we did not give them ample opportunities to be of service to their fellow men.

The debate is also of value because it reminds us that effective aid to overseas countries is not just a matter of money and machines, or of building schools and hospitals, or raising money to purchase tractors, books or seeds.
Effective aid to under-developed countries is also a matter of young men and women giving ,.--,, - ~ .......--: 903 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 904 ~ [ I .

[LORD BALNIEL.]

their time to man these machines ; to teach in the schools and to work in the hospitals.

Often they go to work in extremely remote villages or in slum townships.

Often they are in areas where there is a hideous prevalence of disease, poverty and misery.
to overseas aid We oan look baok on Britain's contfli bution in '1lhe past to overseas aid wiith a sense of considerable pride and we can look on our con1:ribu,tion today wi,th an equivakn.t sense of pride.

During 1:Jhe past few years there has been a sub sitanit:ia,l developmenrt of opportuni,tii.es for volunteern, bu:t rtlhe fact !l'emains 1:Jhat our conkibut:iion is over whelmingly a professional s,a}aried con triibut,ion.

is 11his ilegacy of our colonial responsibilities whioh have now dis appeared.
To some e~tent 1:Jhough, it is a reflection of the colonial respons~biHrties wihicb.

stiU exist.

But it means that Britain's contriiibutiion to helping under developed countnies is different in kind frnm the oontdbution made by 1:Jhe Unjrted States o,f America.

Our contri bution is overwhelmi:ngly professional and tfue Ame11ioan contflibution overwbeilm ingly volunteer.

IJhe Today, llhere are about 18,000 British men and women serving overseas in t'he Overseas Civiil Service.
15,000 of ~hem are in coootries whioh accept itlbe Over seas Service Aid Soheime and about 2,000 are in countriies whioh aTe !llOt pTepared to accept 1lb:e soheme.

Wthen we consider our future endeavour we have to take acoount of the pTofessionail effor,t.

There are tQiree broad oonsiderations wh!iob we should bear m mind.
11he firs1: is that itihe demand for tech nical assistance from under-developed ooun1:ri,es is virtuarily insatiable a111d that tlbe momentum of iteohnology in the West has meant ltlha1: in the last 10, 20, or 30 yea.rs ithe gap between indust,rialised, de vcloped, countries and ot!he mainly agricul- tural and undevdoped countries has been steailily wi.den:ing.
The gap between tibe Norfuern and 11he Southern Hemispheres, between w!bii,~e and coloured, between r-ioh and poor, has been not na11rowing, but steadily widening ,in tibe iast fow decades.

The second considerartioo is rtJhat in evi41aibly in the !llext few years tib.ere w:iifl be a sharp and rapid decline in the num- ~ ber of Br,itisih people serving with the Overs-eas Civi,l Service.
No longer can ~he Overseas Civil Service offer a secure, long-rterm, life career ~o tihe same degree as in t>he past.

No longer are there, as in 1Jhe pas,t when we had many Colonies to administer, the same opportunities to tmnsfor from one counrtry to another.

A'1so, rtJhere is ,1Jhe very natural desire of countfii..es on reaohing independence that their administmtive civi'l serv,ice should be manned by ~heir own countrymen and '11herefore, the second not by foreigners.
consideration ill1 framing policy which we must bear in mind is '1Jha1 in tihe ne~t few years rtJhere wiU be a sharp and, indeed, a vapid decil,ine in ,tihe number of people serv·ing in <tibe Over:seas Civil Service.

the receiving countries The third consideration is that in the eyes of the difference between a graduate volunteer and an expert on fully paid short-term secondment will increasingly be blurred.
In the eyes of the receiving country, the graduate volunteer and the professional person seconded for one or two years will be indistinguishable.

Although it would probably be out of order for me to develop the policy on the professional service which I believe should be followed, I hope that the Government will make the main the importance of developing and encourag ing short-term secondment of professional people.
I am thinking of short-term secondment of people from the Home Civil Service, the teaching profession, the medical profession or from industry.

I hope that they will be able to maintain in an annual level of short-term second ment of about 6,000 or 7,000 people.

its policy theme of About two or three years ago I was asked by Mr. Butler, as he then was, to act as chairman of a group of Members of Parliament and people interested in voluntary service overseas.
He asked us to write a report on what could be done in this country to encourage voluntary service overseas and to make recom mendations about how we could help to develop and foster such schemes.

I remem.

ber very clearly when writing that report how interesting it was to talk to people which were running voluntary schemes of service overseas and bow infectious was their enthusiasm and optimism.
I also remember very clearly how exciting it was to talk to young people who had giwn a year of their lives in ~..iL.•- - f -... ~....-..,,.., .... ,.- .

, .. ....

--~·v-;;.

;-..·..r:-"'i;;-~ ~~ Overseas Service 905 helping overseas and in reading the letters of young people who, for instance, were caring for refugees in Tibet or the Congo, or who were teaching in Borneo or running youth camps among the slum townships of South America.
They in variably said that the experience had broadened their outlook and had given a new depth and purpose to their lives and strengthened their character in a way which would of value to them for the rest of their lives.
Because it is so obviously good for our young people, and because it is so obviously welcomed by the receiving countries, and not least because it is clear that many people in the under-developed countries will gain their picture of Britain from these people and not through the medium of propaganda, it seems to me that in this debate we should not merely eulogise what is being done today but to should be prepared constructively criticise and to see how we can improve the existing arrangements.
I should like, first, to say a few words about the number of people we should aim at sending overseas every year ; secondly, a few words about the organisa tional structure; and, thirdly, a few words about finance.

I deal, first, with the target for graduate volunteers serving overseas.

There is no doubt that the developing countries are asking increasingly for more sophisticated projects to be undertaken.

Increasingly, there are projects which can be undertaken only by graduates.
The introduction of large numbers from the Peace Corps has led receiving countries to frame projects suitable for people of the age of 20, 21 or 22 years.

The expansion of our programme of gaduate volunteers has been very rapid.

It was only in 1962-63 that the first pilot scheme was undertaken.

Then, a mere 36 teachers went to Africa as volunteers.

The scheme was so successful ,that in the following year, 1963-64, 250 graduate volunteers went overseas.
During 1964-65 the number was doubled and 500 gradu ate volunteers served overseas.

We were told only the other day that the target for 1965-66 is 1,200.

I understand that at this moment the voluntary bodies are engaged in seleoting graduates and pre paring projects for these 1,200 volunteers.

It is interesting to compare these figures with the recommendations which we made in our report.

Our recommendations were 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 906 almost exactly equalled by what was achieved in practice.
I wish to make this comparison because it might lead the Government to believe that our recom mendations for the future are equally within the reach of this country.

Our recommended target for 1964-65 was that there should be 500 graduate volunteers overseas.

This was achieved exactly.

Our target for 1965-66 was that this number should be doubled and that there should be 1,000 graduate volunteers serving over It was pleasing to hear only the seas.
other day that the Government are able to send overseas a slightly larger number of graduate volunteers than we recom mended-1,200.

for following the policy The crunch comes when we look future, be at the that during cause we recommended the the 1966-67, year, number of volunteeris serving overseas should again be doubled and that we should send out 2,000.
I must confess that I have been rather disturbed by the Government's failure to announce their for 1966-67, particularly programme because it has coincided with certain actions they have taken on capital invest ment which I fear will inevitably lead to a diminution of capital investment in the under-deve,loped countries.

I express my feeling of disturbance because, in the past, it has been normal for the programme to be announced in February.
However, we have not yet had an announcement of the programme of the numbers of graduate volunteers who will serve overseas in 1966-67.

I hope that when the Minister winds up the debate he will be able not only to tell us what the policy will be for that year, but that he accepts our recommen dation of 2,000 graduate volunteers.

I appreciate that to people who have not studied this subject, 2,000 graduate volunteers may seem a very small num ber indeed.

This is not the case.


Cer tainly, the Minister would regard it as a great challenge to be able to send out that number.

In 1966, the number of graduates leaving universities or equiva lent insti,tutions like teacher-training col leges and colleges of advanced technology will be 70,000.

Of these, about 10 per cent.

are students from overseas.


There fore, in setting a rtarget of 2,000 gradu ate volunteers we are asking that this country should endeavour to send 3 per 1 I ; , ~ j 1 • J!t~x 907 Overseas Service [LORD BALNIEL.]

14 MAY 1965 cent.

of its British gradua,tes to serve Yoluntarily overseas.

I menti.on this figure because it indi caites the scale of what we are asking of our young people.

The Peace Corps, with the full force of the administration behind i,t, is able to send 2 per cent.
of its graduates overseas.

I am asking that we in this country should achieve a percentage is rather better achieved in the United States.

than I believe that we can do this because in the Peace Corps programme one of t.1-1e great deterrents to young people is that it involves them going overseas, not for one year, as is the case with our programme, but for two years.
Also, although I do not wish to develop the point, the economic pressures on young people in the United States to obtain work immediately after leaving school are considerably greater than in this country.

For example, many students in the United States are in debt when they have finished their college educa tion, this may be true of some of our students-but not to the same degree as in the U.S.A.

I should like also to say a word about I quite the organisational structure.
accept that a governmental organisation such as the Peace Corps has tremen dous advantages if one aims to secure a rapid expansion of its programme.

Having studied it in some depth, I cer tainly do not share those who make disparaging remarks about the Peace Corps.

Having I was immensely impressed by the energy, the drive and the enthusiasm which it is able to bring to its programmes.

studied it, Equally, however, I do not regard it as a suitable medium for this country.
It has many advantages but it is equally true that receiving countries prefer, if possible, to see the service run as a non-governmental affair.

A scheme as at present, when run by the voluntary societies, has many advantages.

There taint of neo is no colonialism.

The operation of a scheme through the voluntary societies is a pub lic emphasis of the voluntary character of our scheme.

It accords more closely with our social service traditions.
I believe also that running it through the voluntary societies gives it a spark and conceivable , ... a. I I k ..

I ~ (School Leavers) 908 enthusiasm, a vitality and variety which are difficult, although not impossible, to achieve in a bureaucracy.

to ask those societies is possible, and which However, it is one thing to ask the voluntary societies to run a pilot scheme of 36 graduates and it is quite a different thing to run annually a scheme for 2,000 graduate If the Government are to volunteers.
support the scale of expansion which I they believe should accept, I suspect that the existing central organisation, the Lockwood Com mittee, will prove structurally quite inadequate.

This is no reflection upon the persons who work in the Lockwood Committee.

It is a reflection rather on the structure, which, I believe, is not designed to suppo,rt a really large-scale programme.

should suggest certain changes.

At present, the voluntary societies are responsible for recruitment of individual volunteers.
They are responsible for selecting and the selec I share with my hon.

tion processes.

Friend the view that the selection pro cesses undertaken in the United States are more thorough and, possibly, more effective than those which we are able to undertake.

like to I societies are The voluntary also responsible for publicity, for the despatch of volunteers, and for their training.
The voluntary societies are responsible for the administration of volunteers overseas and for ithe formulation and the selection of projects.

The efforts of these voluntacy societies are truly magnificent, but if we are to achieve the kind of expansion which I visualise, the resources of these societies will be strained to breaking point.
Even as it is, my impression is that what is holding up the expansion of this Voluntary Service Overseas scheme is not so much a shortage of volunteers ooming forward as the fact that the resources of the societies are already strained excessively.

The Lockwood Committee is a committee of co-ordina tion- it co-ordinates ,the various volun tary societies- but the executive action reS1ts in the hands of the voluntary bodies.
First, I suggest thait the secretariat of the Lockwood Committee should be a full-time secretariat.

At present, it is a P,aDt-time body provided by the National --.----- - ~ - 909 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) --7 910 and beyond societies.

Council of Social Service.

It is magni- council should also shoulder responsi ficently served and led by Mr. Philip bility for training.

This is fairly costly Zealey.


None the less, the fact remains the resources of many that it is a part-time secretariat.

If we are to achieve a dramatic expansion, I believe that it should be full-time and that there should be a full-time director.

I believe, however, that a more funda mental change is necessary.

I should like to see the Lockwood Committee develop into what I might call an Overseas Ser vice Council.

lt should have powers not only of co-ordination, but of initiation.
Also, as large sums of Government money should be devoted to this field it should also have powers of super vision over the voluntary bodies.

I should like to say a short word about finance.

Assuming that the Government accept-and I hope that today we will hear that they do accept-a target of 2,000 graduate volunteers for 1966-67, we must look at the cost which is involved.
Each project to send a graduate volun teer overseas costs something short of £1,000, and under the arrangements which were made by my right hon.

Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) the British Government's share is 75 per cent.

of the cost of such projects.

If they accept the target which I suggest the Government's responsibility will be to find £1 ½ million.

Broadly, I believe that there should be a division of responsibility between the voluntary societies and a new Overseas Service Council.
The voluntary societies should continue to be responsible for cer tain executive action.

They should be res ponsible for recruiting individual volun teers, for the selection processes, for the despatch of volunteers and for the ad ministration of the volunteers when they are overseas.

The new Overseas Service Council should be made responsible for formulat ing projects and for selecting them.
I should like this new Overseas Service Council to establish a projects division and to have persons permanently over seas, working out, in conjunction with overseas Governments and our own re presentatives overseas, projects suitable for our volunteers.
In the present system, it is right that the initiative for a project should come from the Government concerned, but all too often when travelling abroad one hears people in overseas Governments say that they do not know what work our volunteers can undertake.

All too often one hears that they have not heard of projects which could be undertaken in their country and which are being under taken in other countries.

They have not known that we could provide volunteers I believe to help them in those ways.
that the projects division should, for example, meet our boys and girls, our young men and young women when they go overseas and give them on-the-spot briefing.

The Council should also re lieve the voluntary bodies of the burden of general publicity for the scheme the I ·,J ., I l This will ,leave £500,000 to be found by voluntary societies such as Oxfam or the Freedom from Hunger Campaign and the various otJber money raising organisa tions.
It iis quite impracticable to expect that those voluntary organisations will be able, over any lengthy period, to find a sum of the size of £500,000.

I do urge that the Government should be prepared to accept a higher proportion of the cosrts involved, because if rthey are not pre pared to accept a higher proportion of the costs involved then I think they must accept the absolutely inevitable conse quence of seeing the voluntary service schemes stagnate in size.
We recommended-I acknowledge thart this was not accepted by my hon.

Friend -uhat the Government should bear 90 per cent.

of the cosrts of the graduate I believe it is right volunteer projects.

that ·the wihoile costs should not be borne by the Government because we want to retain this sepse of voluntary effort.

How ever, the Government do bear, for in stance, 90 per cent.
of the costs of the British Council, and I believe that the work done by volunteers serving overseas is as fuMy worth w;hile of support as the work undertaken so admirably by the British Council.

There is one last point I should like to make.

Most of tJbe volunteers who leave our country go out to give help to the under-developed countries within I have no wish to the Commonwealth.
confine our schemes of voluntary service overseas-- 911 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 912 Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Dr. Horace King) : Order.

It is not in order for an hon.

Member to read a newspaper in the House.

Mr. Robert Maxwell (Buckingham): Further to that, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I was reading a piece from the paper relat ing to what I hope we shall be discussing, the question of votes at 18.

I was doing so as part of my preparation for my Is 13hat not in order?

speeoh.
speeoh.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker : That is perfectly in order.

Lord Balniel : I was pointing out that, a!lthough the majority of our volunteers serve within the Commonwealth, it was not my wish that we should confine our schemes of voluntary overseas service to the Commonwealllh.
None the less, we do have a very long tradition of service within the Common wealth, and I believe there will be no dispute at all that this long tradition, which stretches back over many genera tions, has been of value both to our own country and to our fellow members of the Commonwealth.

We have, in many places, a common language ; we have a shared history ; we have close links of communications and links also of effort in establishing democracy throughout the world.
Recently, there was set up what I believe to be a very good precedent the setting up of a Commonwealth exchange scholarship scheme.

I should like there are certain advantages in developing our scheme of voluntary service so that they should become part of a comprehensive Com monwealth scheme to urge that For instance, Commonwealth countries such as Australia, Canada and New Zea land can bring to countries such as India and Pakistan agricultural expertise which we cannot supply.
India and Pakistan in their turn can help other members of the Commonwealth.

It seems to me that should we develop our own scheme of voluntary overseas service into a Com monwealth scheme we could avoid some of the political difficulties which do arise.

We could also, to some degree, make a reality of the Commonwealth to ordinary men and women-to whom too often it is a mere word.

Although I realise that ..

.


;._ this cannot be accepted in the immediate future, it is, I feel sure, the ultimate objective at which we should aim.

1.24 p.m .
1.24 p.m .

Mr. James Johnson (Kingston upon Hull, West): When I entered the Chamber this morning I felt we were beginning one of those debates seldom seen, and, I imagine, little to be seen in the coming weeks, when both sides of the House are in accord, both sides of the House wish to attain a common objective, and both sides have very much in common even over the means of attaining the object.
Therefore, I want to congratulate, if he will allow me to do so, the noble Lord the Member for Hertford (Lord Balniel) on the speech I have just listened to.

I enjoyed it immensely, and I go a very long way with the noble Lord in what he said about 2,000 volunteers overseas.

Like him, I hope that my Government will see their way to giving additional sub ventions for this very purpose.

Unfortunately, we have had one dis cordant note which, I hope, we shall not have again.
It is the suggestion that the Government will cut back somehow or another upon their commitments.

I hope that when the Minister answers the debate he will tell us exactly what amounts we are spending on overseas aid.

I think the facts will come as a surprise to some Members on the benches opposite who seem to have these fears that somehow or another we intend to cut back or are in the middle of cutting back the money which we should spend.
Another thing I wish to comment upon in t!he speech I have jusit listened to is this matter of exchange in the Common wealth.

I believe very much indeed in ex change, and I happen to be on the Coun cil of the League for the Exchange of Teachers in the Commonwealth, the old League of Empire.

We have seen many teachers exchanged within the Common I am not talking now simply of wealth.

volunteers, but serving teachers.


We have an exchange of about 50 with countries in Africa and something like a dozen in New Zealand and perhaps 20 in Aus tralia.

We could send many more if-and I address my remarks to the Ministe-r there were a little more money for our overseas aid, a bigger subvention so that we could pay the fares overseas and back home of these additional teachers.

~ l h •• 913 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 914 I can speak personally here.
Another point in the speech of the noble Lord on which I should like to comment is the matter of project selection.

The Lockwood Committee, I gather, held a weekend seminar on this matter of selection of projects overseas, and not only of people to go there.

I gather that the most important thing which emerged in this atmosphere was the unanimous de cision to improve the present methods of selection.
I quote: I have I think it is important that we do been overseas once or twice doing work, launch out on to teacher exchange in and my own daughter is at the moment these new African Dominions.

For many in Northern Nigeria after studying years we exchanged with the white archaeology at Cambridge, and is having Dominions, but in these days we should place new emphasis on exchange with the time of her life in Jos.

As the hon.
As the hon.

Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, and Zambia- Member for Ealing said, we want many I am con more arti-sans to go out.

indeed to all parts of Africa.

vinced that many more of the lower levels, technicians of all kinds and trade unionists, need to go out and join their fellow-workers in Africa, whether in a black society like Ghana or a mu1ti racial or mixed society like East Africa.
Not only can these men and women work alongside their fellow members of the Commonwealth but also they can teach them in their local trade union branches, how to deal and carry on at shop floor level.

They can teach them what we learned by hard and bitter experience in the 19th century ; how to negotiate and get better conditions, better terms of service, better wages and the like.

They need elementary advice on matiters such as book-keeping.
This is very important because I believe, like the co-operatives, that trade unions are a basic school for democracy.

They will teach them how to look after their own affairs and come via the trade unions and the co-operative, into local government in East Africa and elsewhere and also into national government.
that a further effort must be made to ensure that volunteers are sent to projects which are really worth while and meaningful, otherwise the essence of the whole operation is lost and nearly £1 million of the British taxpayers' money is thrown down the drain."

Therefore, we must be very careful in tihe selection both of the persons who go overseas and of the operations themselves on which we send them out. "
It was recognised by everyone I have been a little late in coming to the Motion itself, but I so much enjoyed the speech of my hon.

Friend the Mem ber for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy).

He spoke about the bubbling vitality of our school-leavers at 18 in his constituency -which can be said, of course, of the youth in all our constituencies-but what about his bubbling vitality?
He made a most stimulating speech, and although be is absent at the moment, I thank him for initiating this debate upon this sub ject.

I am full of hope and faith for the future.

I believe we have very fine young people.

Never mind those Mods kicking about in the coastal towns occasionally.
I believe ,there will be many more of our young people volunteering for service overseas, and I believe that the more we can send the better, so that we fill the gap left through the exodus of the expatriates who have been coming back over the last years.

The hon.

Member for Ealing, North was absolutely correot.

There appears to be no shortage of fine young men and women who wish to go overseas, despite the bad Pres,s we ge,t occasionally about places like Ghana.

finance.
finance.

I hope these numbers will increase and I again ask the Minister about this matter of like Oxfam, Societies Christian Aid and one about which we have heard so much this morning, I.V.S., International Volunteer Service, are doing wonderful work but there is a limit to the amount of money they can get by I believe the voluntary contributions.

State should give as much as it possibly can to help.

The I.V.S.
The I.V.S.

places the skills and experience of gifted people at home at the disposal of the less lucky people overseas.

Once these young men and women have gone overseas they some times see the need for a lifetime of ser vice.

Many come back after 12 months -which I think is too shovt a period conscious of the great economic divide between the two countries and wish to go back to help.
I wish to add my praise, if it is necessary, to that already given to the work that bas been done by these voluntary societies.

In many ways the I.V.S.

is quite its volunteers serve unique because 1 J ~ 915 Overseas Se,vice 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers} 916 [MR.

JOHNSON.]

within the context of an international organisation unhindered by any national or political considerations.

Earlier we were told, ahnost as if by a junior Senator from Massachusetts, all about the American Peace Corps.
I know a little about the Corps, having worked in Liberia and I agree with the hon.

Member for Hertford that the less one has government agencies in this field the better.

The more one has voluntary agencies subsidised or buttressed by government finance the less difficulty one finds.

This is one of the difficulties met with by the Americans in giving aid to Africa.

It is a big handicap to the way in which they do their work.
Dealing with the matter of volunteer selection, I do not know exactly what the Americans do, but I listened to the eulogy about the length and efficiency of their training course, some 13 weeks compared with the 4 or 5 days we give to our people before they leave.

I sug gest that we should consult the people at the other end of the operation.

We should have the underdeveloped territory telling us whether the American Peace Corps is doing a good job there.
I would go further than this and say that when we select people in the United King dom in colleagues from Tanzania or Zambia or Malawi or other High Commissions to help us, and define exactly what kind of pmjeo~s they need and what kind of person they would lrike to get.

They could give us, not a post mortem, but some bnd of repo.nt upon ,the work which is "being done.
to go out we should call Sir George Sinclair (Darking): When our volunteers go out, the projects to which they go are put forward by the developing countries ; so it is not a question of consulting us further about these projects.

They are the projects that themselves have put up.

Secondly, there is, I believe, already a good deal of involvement by the High Commissioners in the training and .pre conditioning courses.

they Mr. Johnson : I am delighted to hear it.


The Lockwood Committee's Report gave me some thought about this and that perhaps we should know more about the schemes.

As I see it, the value o.f this volunteer movement lies ~ as much in the experience given to our young people as in the work done by them overseas.
If they make their skills available to the community where they go, and do good jobs which leave behind them a legacy of good will and achieve ment, such as teachers, nurses and wel fare workers obviously do they too also benefit from this.

When they come back to the United Kingdom they are not only bigger and better people, but better fitted to study our newspapers, and indeed better fitted to be Members of Parliament if later they enter Westminster.
Their attitude towards our cousins overseas, whatever their colour, is much more tolerant, and people with this experience are much more helpful if they speak in this Chamber or any other forum any where else in the United Kingdom.

Many come back with a different attitude towards oeople overseas and their diffi culties.
·r will not mention particular towns in the United Kingdom in view of the difficulty in some places with coloured workers and housing, but it would be a very good thing if thousands of young workers went out and when they returned sat upon town councils in the Midlands and elsewhere and applied their experi ence to the settlement of some of our own domestic difficulties.

May I ask the Minister if he will think again about founding a professional ser vice for technical and assistant personnel overseas.
I think that many of these young people who have been out on a volunteer basis will wish to join us and channel their experience, enthusiasm and idealism in some permanent way.

I have met the suggestion that some of these young people particularly, those under 35, should be enlisted as associate experts for the United Nations.

I gather that the Dutch and Germans are thinking on these lines.

The hon.

Member for Hertford talked about 2,000 volunteers and about educa tion.
I should like to say a word about that, and about the possibility of young I have recently teachers going overseas.

visited a Catholic Teachers Training College in Hull.

I was delighted, in fact, almost overwhelmed, by the en thusiasm and idealism of these future teachers, particularly the young women.
Some not merely wished to go overseas when they had finished their training i ~- [ I 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 918 Overseas Se, vice 917 and obtained their certificates, or diplo mas, or degrees, but they wish if pos sible to teach overseas during their train I have asked whether the ing course.

universities, or the examining body, would accept the second of a three-year teaching course being spent overseas.
I hope that this can be arranged, because these young teachers are full of en thusiasm, and if we can get them when they are young, it is much better to do so than to wait until they are a little older, when they are perhaps a little cynical and world-weary and worldly wise.

Nowhere have I met the enthusiasm that I have met amongst young future teachers.

A teacher has a great influence on 30, 50, or perhaps even hundreds of people whom he meets.
Some people believe I do not subscribe to this view-that - the future demand for teachers will fall away because the African States will provide their own teachers and will not require our help.

I repeat that I do not believe this.

I think that there will be an even greater need for our people to go overseas.

It may be that they will be required to teach at more advanced levels.
It may be that they will be required for sixth form teaching and to teach African teachers, but I am sure that the need will not diminish.

Is my hon.

Friend's Department get ting all the information possible about what is happening in Africa?

Are the staffs of the High Commissioners there getting all the details about planning by the African States and about their future needs so that they can channel the in formation back to us?
I have been assured that this is happening, but I am not certain that that is the case.

I understand that the former Depart ment of Technical Co-operation, for which the right hon.

Member for Mitcham (MT.

R. Carr) was responsible, examined a recommendation by a Select Committee on Estimates to decide whether we should establish a service to be called the Com monwea1th Advisory and Technical Ser vice.
This was to consist of a pool of officers paid for by the United Kingdom, and seconded for service overseas.

This idea was turned down, and I do not want to pursue this, but I do ask for a small burt: nevertheless efficient Commonwealth Education Service to be provided, be cause I believe tha,t if we had a pool of teachers, part.icu}arly of young people who had been overseas as volunteers and then come back, we could with advant age second these people overseas.
In the interval between postings there would be no difficulty in finding them jobs in our schools.

What I want is a pool of teachers-the former L.C.C.

had such a supply pool and served in different schools of London-who are fully quali fied and of high calibre who can be seconded to serve overseas.

Mr. John Tilney (Liverpool, Waver tree): Would not the hon.
Gentleman agree that one of the great difficulties is that so many people who would wil lingly go out for a year o:r two fear that they may lose their place on the rung of promotion, and therefore the more that we can get proleptic appointments in, say, medicine, so that someone knows that he will come back to a job that is more impo11tant than the one he is doing at the moment in this country, the better it will be for everyone?

Mr. Johnson: I accept that.


I know the past headaches of this situation, but I do not think that it is beyond the wit of the Government to devise some scheme to safeguard the manner of promotion.

This has been ,the biggest handicap in the past to getting teachers to go over seas, and I hope that we can do some thing about it to satisfy them.

There are other nations in the field beside the American Peace Corps.

The Canadians, the Germans, the Dutch, and I gather the French, too, are moving in.
I wish to ask the Minister what co operation there is between these various forces of volunteer workers overseas.

Are conferences held to pool our know ledge and experience?

Are we meeting the Americans, the Canadians, the Ger mans, the Dutch and the French to dis cuss the situation?

I am sure that many of the lessons which they have learnt would be of benefit to us, and vice versa.

If my hon.
If my hon.

Friend has not already done so, I ask him to consider having a get together with the other nations who are working in this field, because we all have to work together.

Both sides, and indeed all nations, have to work to gether.

This is a joint effort.

We have this morning about the heard a wealthy Northern Hemisphere and the technically poor Southern one, developed West, and the under-developed societies of Africa, South America and the lot 919 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 I ~ I r ~ [MR.
JOHNSON.]

South-East Asia.

We are all in this to gether.

Let us all work together and do a good job at the end of the day.

1.46 p.m. Sir Frederic Bennett (Torquay): I am pleased to follow the hon.

Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) because, whereas we have had a number of political arguments over many years, I think he will testify that on this subject we have also had a great deal in common.

So it is very pleasant to be able to compliment the hon.
Gentleman with none of the usual irony that creeps in when one pays compliments from one side of the House to the other.

The only reason why I do not comment at length on the many interesting points that he made is that other hon.

Members wish to take part in the debate and he ~hould not take my lack of comment as neces sarily signifying disagreement.

I agree that to serve a year 0verseas is too short, but it is very difficult for volunteers to afford more than that.
Any thing over a year becomes exceedingly difficult from the point of view of their own careers.

Although it is an estimable plan, it is not as easy as it seems, but it is very much easier if the person serv ing overseas is being paid by some other organisation and continues his promotion and to be paid during that time.

I was glad that the hon.

Gentleman and my hon.

Friend the Member for Hertford (Lord Balniel) concentrated not just on the world as a whole but referred to the Commonwealth.
It is not a ques tion of charity beginning at home in a debate like this, but the whole world 1s rather large for this small country to tackle.

The greatest degree of aid is being given, and the most effective work done, by those countries which were for merly Imperial powers and have a legacy of responsibility and are carrying it out.

France, too, has a splendid record in that respect.

If we can do many of the things which the hon.


Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) mentioned for the Common wealth, we shall not be doing badly, without spreading our wings too far I hope that, like the hon.

Member for Ealing, North, I shall be forgiven if I speak rather more to the general theme of what we are trying to do, because I do not have the expert knowledge of the hon.

(School Leavers) 920 Member for Kingston upon Hull, West of some of these overseas courses.
I was very impressed when the hon.

Member for Ealing, North began by saying bow little we realised of the massive nature of this problem.

Whatever we can do is infinitesinml, judged by the standard of what requires to be done.

I have had t!he interesting experience of spending a lot of time in most of t:he territories which have been mentioned today.
One of the first lessons that I learnt was that if a person is going to play an active pavt in ,this field-it does not matter whether he is a professiona,l or a volunteer-he has to be dedicated.

This is the real problem.

Whether he is a volunteer, or whether it is his livelihood, he has to be as dedicated to the job as a doctor is to his profession.

As my hon.

Friend the Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinolair) and other hon.
Members know, he must often put up with living in extremely hot and damp conditions.

People tend to think of the palm trees and not t:o of such t:hings as the smells, the flies, the mud, or tJhe teeming rain, or the many other unpleasant things that one has to endure if one carries on this sorit of work.

Therefore, I am sure that we can at least agree on at least one necessary signpost ; there must be a feel ing of dedication.

Only if there is shall we be able to succeed.


Furthermore, there are considerable frustrations.

When I was a small boy I was told by a reactionary gentleman that to provide baths for the working class people of Britain was useless, because they would only fill ~hem up with coal.

Perhaps they did fill them up with coal for a long while, but we have to keep on with our efforts unrtil people stop filling nheir banhs with coal.

This process applies just the same in the outside world.
We have to try to persuade people to con tinue to grow crops when they neglect ~hem.

We have to go on trying to get them to breed decent cattle, a,Jthough, to be the local when.

cattle happen currency, people tend to want to have just the maximum number of beasts.

We have to be patient and be prepared to do the same thing over and over again.

I should •like to tell the House of a personal experience in East Pakistan.
J went tihere, as part of a relief team, to help 11!he people of a village whioh had ---- --- = 921 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 922 in one'~ purely material ~uccesses in ordi been flooded by a rising river.

It was a mud-flat village.

Only a small rise in the nary life.

river is usually needed to flood sue~ a village.

The fish in the river p10vide nearly all the villagers' food.

The flood- ing was quite enough to b~ing i;bout considerable distress for tihe ~habitants tihere.
being trapped in the!f huts by the nsmg waters and others being bttten by snake.s when ground.

I should like to give one other personal anecdote to illustrate this.

This was in East Africa.

Whatever other training I may have had, I have had no medical I was in one of those muddy training.

In faot, a~out 60 d1ed-s_o~e parts of East Africa at a time when the rains were pouring down.
There came a light knock on the door and when it these sought refuge on higher was opened there stood a Masai tribes woman with a girl of about 6 or 7 years One of the things we brought with us of age.

It was pl'.1-in, even to a person with was dried milk for the babies, and I my small expenence, tha_t she was near to death.

Sh~ had a ragmg temperature helped to distribute it.

After a short time, I found that the babies were not and pneumoma.
getting the dried milk, becaus_e the pa~ents found that they could sell it at quite a high price-and we ~ould .

not blame them, because of the incredible poverty that they endure-to entrepeneurs.

So ~e had to IJ?-ix the m!lk with wate~ and sit there while the children drank 1t.

This was on a Sunday, and the~e was no method by which any expenenced help could be given that evening.
Fu~ thermore, the woman arrived at cocktail hour which is just about the worst time for ;ny untrained volunteer do~tor to try to do his stuff.

The only thmg that I could find was some penicillin a~d a We also brought strips of cloth for the needle.

They were clearly marked For women to make into saris.

As one small indication of the massive amount of Cattle".
But ~t seemed clea~ to m:' that misery that existed there, each recipient it was ~ question of that child dymg ?r of a sa,ri first had to borrow the old, my takmg a chance.

In the end I did the only injection that I have ever done ragged sari from the woman before her before she could dress to come to us to in my life.

I felt a great sense of pride next morn get h~r new one.

.

It is only wh~n we see this sort of thmg that we realise the ing when the entire kraal of 50 or 60 f!',.
year later immensity of the problem.

people came along to express their thanks I learned about one (?f the gift~ that had for what I had done.

I was very relieved to know, for the sake of my conscience, bee_n sent, from I believe '.1- ~w1ss source, which was a pre-natal clime.

All that that the baby had lived and was better.


had happ~ned a year later was that many At first I thought that the tribesman had called for an entirely different reason more babies had been born successfully ; that I had given the wrong dose and that and as there was only the same .

small amo~nt of food for _the whole v!llage, the tribesmen had come along with their nothmg had been achieved at all m the knobkerries.

I well remember that small incident.

It gave me more pleasure than effort to.


reduce t~e sum total of human some of the political successes, if I may poverty m that village.

so call them, that I have had in my life.

All these obstructions and frustrations This brings me to another point, on emRhasise the need for people who are the same lines.

Somehow or other we dedicated._ T~ere are some moments of great ~at!ficat10n, however, and.
they are have to engender, in the minds of over ~bat msp!fe people t~ go on dorng these seas students coming here who afterwards Jobs.

S?metimes, qmte suddenly, a ray go back to their own countries, as well of sunsbme come~ ,through and mak~s one as people from this country who go over seas, a feeling that agricultur~l and te~h feel that somethmg has bee~ achieved.

nical services have a much higher social The hon.


Member for Ealmg, North status than they are regarded as having talked about making two blades of grass at the moment.

One has only to live in grow where only one had grown before.
one of the Inns of Court, as I do, to It is the sudden feeling that one bas see every day great numbers of eage_r achieved even the smallest breakthrough eyed, keen men and wm_nen wh~ will that brings a sense of gratification, very ultimately go back to therr countries to often to an extent that is not experienced 1 j 923 Overseas'Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 924 [SIR F.

BENNETT.]

be lawyers, includi'hg those, too, who are over here_ for coutses in political science.
lt is a tragedy that the present idea about status has resulted in an over production of lawyers and politicians in the under-developed countries of the world.

That is a fairly modest thing to say in this assembly, but it is true.

Even over here we do not give sufficient impor tance to the technical services, as opposed to politics, administration and law.
If all the lawyers and politicians in the under-developed countries trained since the war had been teachers, doctors and dentists, we would be debating this question today in a much more optimis tic frame of mind.

We can do much more in our own universities and schools in this direction.

If we can succeed in persuading those people who come here regard professions and occupations to outside politics, the law and administra tion as having a much higher status, we shall be doing them great benefit.
We shall be able to help them to a far greater extent, and much more cheaply, than is the case with some of the broad financial help which we have talked about.

I turn lastly to one other aspect of the matter which is a difficult one to talk about because of people's susceptibilities.

We must think more about training people who are prepared to do birth control work in under-developed coun tries which do not have strict religious reasons for not practising it.
This must be done, not because it will do a lot -because whatever we do we shall always be too small a country to do a lot-but simply because we shall then be playing our part in the world.

We must train the people who do this work not only in psychology.

in physiology but also I shall not go into the religious reasons which are put forward against birth con trol, except to say that I respect them if I do not share them.
But in many Asian and other under-developed coun tries it is not a religious feeling, but a matter of ignorance, fear and misunder standing, which prevents the people from carrying out this practice.

In several parts of the world where I thought there must be some strong spiritual and religious feeling against it, I often dis covered afterwards there was instead a concrete and materialistic reason.
In these countries, where there is no Welfare State, it is the accepted duty of the children to look after the parents in their old age, and when there is a high rate of infant mortality and a low average length of life it is only natural for parents to have a good many children, because they want to be sure that they will be able to live out their own lives with what is, by their standards, a reasonable standard of living.
Another aspect of the problem is that, especially in South-East Asia, the ques tion of birth control has been mixed up with the fear of loss of virility.

In India and Pakistan it is very difficult to per suade ignorant men and women that one of the few pleasures they have in life will not be altogether lost if they take certain precautions in their own interest.

These, as I say, are psychological much more than physiological.

One other example.
One other example.

People are often talking about birth control throughout India and Pakistan.

Of course, there is much to be said for this, but when for in stance I went to this little village about which I have spoken I saw people living in small mud huts with just skins on the floor.

There was no suggestion of a cupboard or shelf in the huts.

If there is a bottle of pills in such places it is on the floor.
It is no good distributing pamphlets telling the people to keep these bottles of pills out of reach of the babies when there is only the floor on which to keep them or the existing children get the pills not the potential mother.

It has been said over and over again how difficult it is to achieve the sort of pur poses that we have in mind.

When one reads of the things to be done I suggest, as did the hon.
Member for Kingston upon Hull, West, that perhaps the best possible thing is for one to see these things for oneself, one then comes back in a chastened frame of mind.

I found in one village in India that, for one reason or another- I could not see the reason at first-the birth rate was much lower than in another village 30 or 40 miles away.
It appeared that the reason was that one village had electric light so that the villagers could do some handiwork in the evening, and the other village was in darkness soon after 6 o'clock.

That is a small object lesson for some of us to think about.

~~ ~' I I ~ 925 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 926 economic projects, important as they may We have heard today that it is our be.

This ties in very closely in my Christian duty to try to do more in over- seas aid, and in this I fully concur.
As mind with certain aspects of international practical politicians I think it is also service which ha~ not, pe~haps, been given worth asking ourselves whether, in fact, today the attention that 1t deserves.

Most of the observations made in the this is worth doing from our own point I believe that it is because, like of view.
debate have been based on consideration others today, I believe that we are near- of the graduate scheme and professional ing the end of the war of ideologies in workers of that standard being highly the world and are coming to the hostility organised.

I do not wish to belittle the importance of this work, and of profes between those nations which are becom- ing poorer and those which are becoming sional personnel and graduates going out relatively richer.
Anything that we can to Africa and the Middle East and other do to reduce these tensions we should Continents, but one must not overlook the need for others to be trained in this do for our own sakes: and in the field kind of service, such as my hon.

Friend of service, about which the hon.


Gentle- the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. man opposite spoke, there is a great deal which we can do at a relatively small Molloy) and others have referred to, and to bring to bear skills and service at the financial cost.

middle range, as it were, of the economy of the poverty-stricken countries.

2.3 p.m. Mr. Reginald Freeson (Willesden, East) : I rise in some trepidation to follow !,he hon.
Member for Torquay (Sir F. Bennett), because I was so impressed by what he said.

I do not think that it would be often that I could stand up and say that I could listen for hours to the hon.

Member for Torquay, but on this occasion that is true.
In relating his experience over years of service in other parts of the world he recalled for me some scenes and he certainly brought very vividly to my mind similar experiences on a much smaller scale and the great shock that I had when I first arrived in Egypt, some years ago.

I had known poverty, but had never seen it on the scale that I saw it there.

One could not possibly imagine that it existed, that is, not anyone who lived in a E uropean country.
I have seen poverty in North Africa and in certain areas of Europe, the Eastern Mediterranean area where one can also find scenes of squalor and poverty.

But they do not match the squalor and poverty of India, the Middle East and certain other countries.

They are really beyond the imagination of people who have lived the whole of their lives either in this country or in the Northern part of Europe.

I was particularly impressed by the emphasis which the hon.
Member for Torquay placed upon the undertaking of work in the field of the under-developed countries, the poverty-striken countries, at certain small points of importance and of not always talking in terms of massive I also feel, as do one or two other hon.

Members, that perhaps we are not paying sufficient attention to s,tudying the bes,t way in which we as a country, even if it be on a somewhat smaller scale than we would wish, can provide service in I am not at all the receiving areas.
sure, with the greatest respeot to the High Commission offices and similar levels of administration, that the right information always comes through, or thail right projects are always the recommended.
There are the experiences of people who have actually gone out into the field and who, by the very nature of the work they are doing and the travel that they have to undertake in the field of inter national service, learn from people well below the higher levels of administration that wrong things are being done or, if that is too harsh a way of putting it, that the wrong priorities are being fol lowed in territories and elsewhere.
the African I think irt very important indeed that a close study should be made on the spot of the work to be done.

Perhaps the best example of this in recent years is that 18 months before the Freedom from Hunger Year series of projects was undentaken a sh.
!dy was made of a cer tain territory in Northern Greece, prior to the United Nations Association Inter national Service Department and others, with the assistance of Governments and of the funds made available later as a result of the Freedom from Hunger Campaign, 927 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 928 [MR.

FREESON.]

going out to start on the work which was to last two or three years.

There was a very close study of the economy of the areas.
This study was made in close con junction, furst, with personnel from the United Nations Refugee Office and from the United Nations Association International Service Departments in this country and elsewhere.

It was made also in conjunction not only with high level civil servants and economists, but with people actually working in the field in the territory affected.
The result was that on the basis of this very down-to-earth study it was possible to start our own scheme which, I believe, is still under way, regarding the establishment of farming techniques, of new village buildings and o.f co operative administration for the area.

This is the kind of thing that needs to be done and one fears that it is not being done sufficiently at the grass-root levels in the receiving areas.
One wants to hear from a very low level upwards what is necessary before one sends people out, because, as the hon.

Mem ber for Torquay quite rightly said, no matter how much we spend and do for the rest of our lives, and for the lives of three or succeeding generations, it will be too little.

two the ' ' .
two the ' ' .

f It is all the more important, there fore, to make sure to the best of our ability that whatever the amount, be it £2 million, £3 million, £5 million or £10 million, it is spent at those points in the economy from which we are to get real value fo r money.

Frequently a situation arises where the expenditure of £1 on a particular project could be of much greater value than the spending of £10 elsewhere.
I speak as one of those people who were described as coming back to this country greater and bigger people because I was with the International Ser It was vice volunteers for some years.

on one of those occasions that I met the hon.

Member for Dover (Mr. Ennals), who is now the P.P.S.

to the Minister.

It was in a refugee camp in Austria, where we were busy digging ditches for foundations for houses which, I sin cerely hope, are still standing.

We went It does not out as unskilled labour.


-- ........... always follow that it is necessary to send out highly skilled persons.

As was said by my hon.

Friend the Member for Ealing, North, there is a necessity to draw in other people.

It is not always true that there exists a vast source of what might be called cheap labour, unemployed labour, avail able in areas where it is necessary to undertake progress.
In some areas there are people who are employable and in others one finds a contrast between a highly fairly advanced economy and pockets of severe poverty which are produced within it for his torical, economic or social reasons and which cannot be dealt with adequately because of the economy.

imbalance of skilled and the This was, unti,l a few years ago, the position in Austria.
In that country, with a relatively high standard of living, where only just recenHy tJhe problem of the refugee camps has been overcome, thou sands of Austrian citizens were living in the forced labour camps built by Hitler.

We went out to this part of Europe, others have gone to Greece, Egypt and North Africa, to areas where one would expect to find that plenty of unskilled labour was available.

In fact it was not.
In fact it was not.

We helped to speed up the permanent resettlement programme in Southern Europe for the High Commission for Refugees.

The reason I refer to Austria particu larly is not so much to make that point as to express my feelings about 1:lhe time which I spent there.

Over a sequence of five years I spent some time each year in these camps.
As I learnt more of the history of the camps the feeling grew that the tremendous efforts that have been made since the war to assist tl:ibe refugees -there were still 45,000 in the camps when I began to go there-had in many cases been misplaced.

Encouragement had been given to what came to be known as camp psychology.

The wrong tech niques were used and money was spent in the wrong way on gifts of clothing and food, and the traditional charity handouts.
I do not mean to be disrespectful to those charitable organisations which pro vide suoh assistance, but this wrong kind of charity and help was being given in stead of embarking on training pro grammes for young people who were " 'T ... - - - - - - ..... - - - ~ ------.
---·-·,........,..~---, 929 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 930 an example, growing up in the camps, and the retrain ing of older people unable to make use of their skills because they had moved, for from agricultural economy to an industrial economy.

The kind of treatment required by elderly parents and grandparents was not being given.

Medical techniques were not pro vided.


The Government of the country were not in the position to help in tihe years after the war when they were one of the relatively poorer Governments.

There was a period of 15 to 18 years before the refugees were transferred from the camps and there were similar situa tions in the Middle East about which I do nOlt wish to speak at length.
The wrong kind of economic development was encouraged because we had failed too often to see things from the point of view of the people for whom the economic aid was being provided.

We must avoid that mistake in the future.

On the question of the kind of admini stration, the starting point must be at ministerial, or Lockwood Committee, level, with the assistance of the Ministry.

There is need to find out a great deal more about what is necessary for the receiving countries.
I am sure that we shall find we need a great deal more middle level bechniques, the artisan level to which my hon.

Friend referred.

It is possible to send a person with a degree in agriculture who will be less capable of handling a si,tuation than a man with perhaps a diploma.

Similarly, an engi neer with an H.N.C.

may not be as use ful as one with an O.N.C.


If, in the whole range of economic activity, we seek to place too much emphasis in what is being done at graduate level we shall miss the great important of pro viding middle-range people.

In education, one finds it much more necessary to deal with the kind of situa tion referred to by my hon.
Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson), who spoke of the need for placing teachers at points in the economy or adminis,tration, in territories of Africa and elsewhere, where they could help to train other teachers.

This is of vital importance.

It may be that we should adopt the techniques which were still being used towards the latter end of the last century in this country, when senior secondary school pupils became pupil teachers.
We must adapt the methods to the needs of the countries concerned.

on think Having made these detailed points about the content of service I wish to deal with what might be referred to as the political level.

I do not mean that in a party political sense.

We have had lengthy comments about the Peace Corps and emphasis has been placed on the need to keep away from too much Government interference.

The need has been stressed for voluntary agencies to operate and I do not deny this need.
International Having been with the Service Department of the United Nations Association I would take it a step further.

it of vital I importance to ensure that our philo sophy is international basically right.

It should be international.

We should be making a grave mistake if we continue to think, or begin to think, in terms of a British equivalent to the American Peace Corps.

I do not mean in organisation, but in conception and in our attitude of mind.
It would be a serious mistake if all the Western European the Soviet Union and countries and China moved in the same direction in this sphere of activity.

Before we reach tJhe stage~w1hich may not be too far dis tant-of a whole series of national peace corps, as it were, competing with one another in Africa, South America, the Far East and the Middle East, I would urge that our Government, to gether with others, should raise this matter at United Nations level.
service It is now 10 or 11 years since there was a conference of the World Federation of United Nations Associations, which agreed that it was desirable to seek the sponsorship of an international service agency through the United Nations.

The delegates came back to their countries with the int~ntion of raising the matter through their own parliamentary pro cedures.
I believe that at that time there was a meeting in the House, at which representatives from the United Nations Association, British branch, spoke to Members of Parliament about what was discussed at the conference.

.

J This was listened to with interest.


pursued Nothing was that United Nati,ons Association represen tatives in this country left the meet ing-which was, in 1954- I and decided to go ahead and show that except think, ~ -~·~ -....... 931 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 932 [MR.

FREESON.]

such a service organisation could be created under United Nations auspices.

They began the development of what is now known as the United Nations Asso ciation International Service Department.
The first jobs which they did were in the flooded areas of Holland the following year and they then began to operate in the camps in Europe, in H ungary for Personnel were sent out to example.

Afr.ica, South America and other countries.

At no time has the idea of a United Nations international service department been resurrected.
I would urge that, before we reach the stage of political com petition in very sensitive areas of the world, this matter should be reopened, and that, instead of talking in terms of the British contribution or the French, German or American contributions, we to talk in terms of a should begin genuinely international contribution in whioh we would participate.
I should like to link this conception of international service as I should like to see it with the growing interest in the social service of one kind and another which can be found in this country already.

In this, the International Volun tary Service--S.C.I.

in its international beading- has again been the initiator.

It was founded in 1920 ; I think that the first British branch was opened about the middle 'twenties.
For many years now, I.V.S.-joined as the years have gone on by s,imilar bodies undertaking in ternational service projects in this country -has been sending people abroad to join them in other countries, not just in the poverty-stricken areas but in Europe as well.

I would like to see a greater effort of co-ordinating these activities at Govern ment and level and local authority encouraging them.
I read only the other day that another committee has been set up under the auspices of the Depart ment of Education and Science to give further thought and consideration to com munity service along these lines in this country.
I would suggest that it would be unfortunate if one Department were encouraging community service of this kind within its own administration while another Department-the Ministry of Overseas Development-was encouraging international service, whether on com- monwealth lines or on the international lines which I have suggested.

It is neces sary to get together and create a link of the kind which the I.V.S.
and the United Nations Association and others have already been trying to establish during the years which they have been doing this work and extending it.

I tended, in my opening remarks, I think, to give the impression that we should concentrate less on the cash and more on bow the smalJ items are spent.

I would not wish to leave the House with I believe that more that impression.
money needs to be spent and I hope that the Minister will not mind if I remind him of what I consider to be a very unsatisfactory answer to a Parlia mentary Question which I asked of his right hon.

Friend the Minister some weeks ago.

I urged that greater encouragement and financial help to I.V.S.

and the inter national service of the United Nations Association should be given.

The answers which I got were in reference totally to the graduate scheme.
I tried to urge then that while the graduate scheme through the Lockwood Committee was of great importance and very desirable and that it was a very welcome thing that the Government were providing 75 per cent.

of the cash to enable the volunteers to go overseas, it was also of great importance that greater help should be given to these organisa tions for other aspects of their work.

It is not confined to sending graduates over seas.

There is a need to assist them generally.


I hope that we sha,11 see much greater administrative and financial help given to this work in future and that the whole of our approach to it will be with the objective of encouraging the establish ment of a genuinely international ser vice, as distinct from a national corps, such as we have seen growing up in cer tain countries in recent years.

2.25 p.m. Sir George Sinclair (Dorking) : Like other hon.
Members, I wish to welcome the Motion and to say bow glad I am to have been present when Members, dedicated as a result of experience or of their assessment of the needs of the over seas countries and the needs of the youth of this country, have brought this matter forward.

Both have a contribution to make, separately.


933 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 934 I shall confine myself to the subject I know for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) re I was working on just the sort of \-loluntacy service overseas.

ferred.

that this is not the only service in this of problems on which many of those field, but it covers 80 per cent.

of our now going in Voluntary Service Overseas overseas effort of voluntary service.
There will find themselves working when they is, I am sure, plenty of opportunity for I can see international service also.

But I do not why this conception appeals to the youth think that we should hold back, in any of today.

They can see the need.

They way, in developing to the full a service want the opportunity to go out and to which has caught the imagination of the serve.
I think that this movement, which country, is most welcome to the receiv- has made such an impact on the young ing countries, and is now appearino as a people of this country, has a great future ahead of it.

real torch to our youth.

get to their destinations. "'

It is not right to say that we are in national competition with the Peace Corps.

In fact, Voluntary Service Over seas preceded the Peace Corps.
It was the late President Kennedy who, announc ing the foundation of the Peace Corps, mentioned that it was built on the lines of the forerunner, Voluntary Service Overseas.

The two services are not in competi tion, either in their concept at the centre or in the field.

They are complementary and they can and do help each other greatly.

What we are interested in are the results in the countries in which they work and in the effect on the volunteers who take part in those services.

Also.
Also.

I believe that there is plenty of room for other services to work in this field.

I believe that when we have something as good and as dynamic as Voluntary Service Overseas, we should give it all the backing we can.

I am glad to know that the Ministry of Overseas Development is giving this movement all the help which it can absorb while remaining a truly volun tary and independent organisation.

The scope of the task has been described by other hon.

Members.
Members.

The great needs of the developing countries for economic growth and the wide gap between the developed countries and the developing countries.

I will not enlarge on that today.

Hon.

Members are quite well seized of the urgency of the task.

I shall, if I may, say something about my personal involvement in this.

I went to a mixed school in Ceylon with Tamils, Burghers, and Singhalese, when I was very young.

My children went to mixed schools in Cyprus.


I spent about 20 years in West Africa, much of the time living in villages and working at the grass roots to which the hon.

Member But let us look at the main problem which we are trying to face-the demand of the developing countries.

It is, I think, at its most intense in the demand for trained or competent manpower.

The special demand is for teachers.

Indeed, over 70 per cent.


of those who go over seas under the auspices of voluntary ser vices go into teaching.

But they also supplement technical assistance in many other fields.

There is, in particular, an increasing demand for industrial appren tices or trainees.

Many hon.

Members have spoken about this need.

I believe it to be urgent.

Some industries have, for several years now, taken a lead in sponsoring their own trainees in going abroad under V.S.O.
But this demand should, I suggest, also be met by trade unions and organisations such as the Co operative movement.

All have a part to play in persuading industry to support and finance these services and to help to interest young trainees and appren tices in the opportunities of such volun tary service abroad.

I should like to say a few words about the origin of V.S.O.

I was in Africa when Alec Dickson was working in community development very shortly after the war.
It was he who got the voluntary service going in this country.

It was grown very rapidly.

The Peace Corps was founded on the model of V.S.O.

V.S.O.

has been outside party politics, and I pray that it will remain outside party politics.

This desire is, I believe, common to all sides of the House.

V.S.O.

is a great gathering of the country's ideas in meeting an opportunity for service where service is badly needed.

It has caught the imagination of youth.


Let us not blunt youth's enthusiasm for it by getting it " mucked about " by party politics.

I believe that we have the same duty on all sides of the House ; it is, 935 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School L eavers) 936 [SIR G.

SINCLAIR.]

I suggest, the duty of anybody concerned with V.S.0.

to keep it outside party politics, whether we are dealing with it in our constituencies, in the House or anywh ere else.
I,t i:S a volurnt:ary movement ; iit srtarted as a voluntary movement, and vhe people who offer it·heir services a-re volunteers.

A greaJt deal of the fi nance is in ·1Jhe form of voluntary contributions.

lit is true t!hat the serviice is now subsidised by t•he Gov ernment as to 50 per cent.

or more, but I beilieve that a greait deaI of merit lies in keeping otihe volunta ry element both in llhe fin,ancing and in tl!he staffing of this organisaotion.
It is not only those who go but ,tlhose who h elp them to go who make a cont-11iibution t:o this work.

Moreover, itibe he1p which our voluntary serV'ice offeirs is vol.unta,11.hly sought by tbe asking country.

Our people go by in vitait~on to ca,rry out ,tasks which cannot be folfrlled by ,the manpower whioh tiha1 country bas been able to muster wi.tbin its own development or f.rom its c:wn is the essence-that this villages.
T'h!is is a sihorit-faU of manpower a nd that tJhese COU[lt11ies are sending out signals asking whether we can heilp them in a particulaor projeot.

When a volunteer goes overseas, he goes to a task for which Vheore is an urgenit need-and ithat is the best possible basis for relationship with !

!he country whioh is receiving help.

t is rund Volun,t,ary service overseas, of course dillers from tihe Peace Corps grea1Jly in organisation.
11he Peace Corps is a State agency far more elaboraitely staffed ; it bas far more people in the field, and they go abroad for a period, on average, of two years, whioh justifies tihe longer training whioh the Peace Corps gives to its volunteers before it sends Vhem out.

But there is, I believe, no Indeed, -tJhere is suah a field o.f riva'ky.

help to be oovered tjlhat riva'lry would be crimiinal.

The services a.re comple mentary and should remain so.
I very muoh hope that, \Vihen he inter venes in tlhe debate, the Parliamentary Secretaory wiH say that it is tjlhe Govern menrt's intention to keep the volunta,ry element s•rrongly represented in ,this move ment.

The demand for help from voluntary serv•ices overseas is growing.

The demand for teacihers, and especri.aUy for gradua,te teaohers, is almost insatiable.

11his is the b iggest malllpower demand in tihe developing country.
T1here is a'lso a growing demand for trainees and appren tices from industry to help in develop ment projeots and in teohnicaJ colleges and to help, where these countries are in greatest need, in getting ;t,be,ir own a11tisans trained.

But if we confine <this effort to gradu ates, a,t a time when so many professions a nd industries are competing for tihem, we sha'hl not meet ,tlle demand.
When graduates have finished at theior univer si,ties, many of them need to get on witlh earning 1tiheir living and founding tJheir family iives ; illhey have to get on w~th bhe job for which vhey are ,trained.

T1here is a far greater scope among tihose coming out of t he seihools of al}} types, for many of tihese can afford one year a-broad ; and I be'liieve itihat, if asked, some of t!hem would afford two years.

Mr. Molloy : The hon.


Member bas put in a nutshehl what I tried to say in part of my speech.

Where we have the skilled graduate who goes overseas to make a contribution, there is a danger of his contribution being vitiated b ecause of the lack of ski.Jled artisan labour to support him in his initial ideas.

Sir G. Sinclair: I emphasised the need for trainees a nd apprentices from indus try.
But the need in every field is so great that there is no cause at all to think that the supply of one will vitiate llhe supply of another.

We are very short of teachers in this country, and t!he greatest need overseas, too, is for teachers, as I have said 70 per cent.

of the volunteers who go overseas go i111to teaching.

Some of them had never thought of going into teaohing in this country before tJhey took up teaching roles in the voluntary service overseas.
A niece of mine recently went straight from a univers.iity out to Colombia in Latin America and taught t here in a university for a year.

So taken was she by teaching and the need for teach ers in Britain, she has returned to this country and is teach ing in Deptford.

She intends now to take a diploma in education and to go into teaching.

I believe uhat voluntary service can be an extra help in supplying teachers in this country.
Although we may lose them for a time, they enrich their ex perience while they are abroad.

How 937 Overseas Se,vice 14 MAY 1965 much better ,tlhey will be when they go into sohooils in this country if they have had experience of coping with the difficult conditions overseas and of adapting them selves to a hundred new and unpredict able situations every day.

It is a great enrichment.

I should like to make a plea for extra support for the voluntary service over seas.
There are already 50 centres in this country, sometimes based on loca,J autho rities, sometimes based on rotary clubs, sometimes based on universities, who are doing a fine job in bringing the work and scope of the voluntary service over seas to the attention of young people.

T1hey are attracting the interests of aill the youth leaders, ohe masters of the schools, everybody engaged in youth work, explaining to them the opportuni ties in this service.
In .that way they are bringing young people into contact wiith these new opporitunities abroad.

They are also gathering groups of people who are giving financial support and sponsoring a few volunteers each year.

Representatives of these groups are then allowed to take part in the pre liminary selection of candidates.
They also help to keep in touch with volun teers overseas ; and, when the volunteers return to this country, they asked them to address groups of young people and thereby pass on the torch and their own enthusiasm.

My final point is about the process of If the demand is to continue, selection.
and we are to keep these channels open, we must send people who have a con tribution to make either in enthusiasm and competence or in acquired skills and we must send people who are tough and mature enough to stand up against some very difficult conditions in many of these places.

We are doing the future volun teers a great service if we are tough in our selection.

Good candidates are I to be found in all types of schools.
refer to people who are physically tough, but also adaptable ; who have a sense of purpose and dedication.

People s!hou!l.d be ohary of oriioioising the process of selection as being too tough.

We cannot afford failures.

At present this year, there are more than 700 volunteers overseas and I am happy to say that none has been returned as a magnificent unsuitable.

This is (School Leavers) 938 achievement on the part of those who have selected these young people for service overseas.

the hon.
the hon.

Member There is much more I should like to say, but I appreciate that other hon.

Members wish to speak.

I conclude by for congratulating Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy).

We are all grateful to him for having given hon.

Members this opportunity to pay tribute to the organisation which is sponsoring these volunteers and also to the volun teers themselves for what they are doing for overseas countries and for the rich ness they will bring back to life in Britain.
2.43 p.m. Mr. John Tilney (Liverpool, Waver tree) : Like my hon.

Friend the Member for Darking (Sir G. Sinclair), I, too, con gratulate the hon.

Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) on having initiated this important debate.

I thought that the hon.

Member for Ealing, North was a little hard on the the industrialists when he spoke of absence of cloth in Africa.
I urge him to go to Kaduna, to see the textile mill which was established there many years ago by the great Lancashire firm, White heads, which takes so much of the cotton production of the Northern Region of Nigeria.

Indeed, the hon.

Gentleman should do all he can to pursuade his right hon.

Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to alter the Finance Bill to make to establish new industries in the developing countries.

it easier for British firms Many hon.


Members have said that not sufficient is known about the subject we are debating.

I have some evidence of that in a circular which was issued by the Liverpool Committee of the V.S.O.

in to 77 grammar and high November in the Liverpool, Wirral and schools Chester areas.

Only 29 schools bothered to reply or take any action at all.

Why was that?

Is it that there is a feeling that many first-class young men and women who apply are rejected?
In fact, about one in three are accepted.

It is not a bad thing that the standard should be so high.

Is it that a minimum of one year's service is required-only a small number go for a shorter time-and that one year is too long for many of those who have passed their A-levels and are I I I j J ·1 ~ 939 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 940 [MR.

TILNEY.]

waiting to go to university?

Or is it that there is a feeling that only few girls are taken?
In fact, about one-third of the cadets are girls.

The export of people is our most important export.

Those who go out from this country are indeed representa tives of the United Kingdom.

As the object of all aid is to render itself super fluous, so some of the projects will have to change as the developing countries become more developed.

Despite this, it will be a long time before a demand dries up.

As my hon.
As my hon.

Friend the Mem ber for Dorking said, there is an immense demand, not only for graduates but for ex-apprentices.

I understand that last year 83 ex-apprentices were called for, but only 43 were recruited.

No fewer than 25 were asked for by Eastern Nigeria alone.

I am glad that reference bas been made to the American Peace Corps.

When ever I have had the privilege of meeting members of the Corps and the V.S.0.
in countries overseas I have found that they have got on together extremely well they have constantly collaborated in many ways-although the Peace Corps has vastly greater resources and the con ditions, certainly at its headquarters, are immensely superior to the headquarters of the V .S.0.

America is famous for traditional hospitality and I have found that the members of the Peace Corps have aani..ed ,that 1Jradi;llion extremely well in overseas territories.

I welcome whart: my hon.


Friend the Member for Darking said about the I remember meeting Mr. Alec V.S.O.

Dickson when he was working in Man O'War Bay at the Outward Bound School, in what was then the British Cammioons.

He and the Bishop of Portsmouth had the great vision of the V.S.O.

The V.S.O.

acts as a kind of middle man, which, through the British Council- and I pay tribute to its work ; it is the overseas arm of the V .S.O.
inspects, advises and reports back to this country on projects put forward by host Governments.

By that means the voluntary organisations can send out the right type to the right job.

While many of these jobs are not likely to be very spectacular, require men and they women of the highest calibre.

.

I have seen a letter from the former headmaster of Eton, reporting on his visit to volunteers in Kenya, Uganda and Dar-es-Salaam.
He wrote: " Without exception every head of a school where V.S.O.s were working, whom I met, spoke to me of them with enthusiasm."

That is indeed a good report.

I commend to the House the three objects set out by the V.S.O.

It is worth while repeating them.

They are : "(I) To help the developing nations solve their economic, technical and educational prob lems by offering them the skills and talents which are part of our heritage.
(2) To improve relations and break barriers in a multiracial world by providing a field in which young people from different environ ments may make friendships and widen sym pathies.

(3) To give to young men and women an opportunity for adventurous service and fit them with tasks in which their idealism may find expression."

It is a job for the flower of British youth, challenging and inspiring them to do a very worth-while job, strengthen their character, demanding self in!!
reliance, and engendering a spirit of ser vice.

as most projects The type of work that requires to be done has been mentioned but I do not think that anyone has pointed out the time available training.

Most for volunteers are required to go early in September, start between July and October.

There is therefore not very much time for train ing-indeed, one of the problems is that there is neither enough money nor enough time for training.
The volun teers must be fit, and I urge parents to see that their children declare any ill nesses or ailments that might oome out in tropical conditions.

I like the remark of one returned volunteer, who said, " My only regret is that Africa has given me very much more than I have given Africa."

One is proud to recog nise that sort of spirit.

I hope that the Government will do all they can-and I know that the Civil Service and some corporations do this to see that their jobs are kept open for volunteers.
As it is, those who have a career in front of them may find it diffi cult to go to a developing country for a year if they feel that they will be left be hind on the promotion ladder.

The more ~ i' 941 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 942 they feel able to go back to their pre vious job, the more likely they are to I would pay tri apply to go overseas.

bute here to my own City of Liverpool, which endeavours to do this.
It is also one of the leaders in modem music and, of course, in football, and one of the few corporations to sponsor volunteers over seas.

Some parents are ignorant of the con d~tions facing volunteers and they should be reminded that the British Council looks after their children very well.

They are always met on arriving in a developing country.

In the case of illness, the best available medical treatment is provided free of charge.
The volunteer is not called upon to make any financial contribution at all, and the food and accommodation provided, though simple, are adequate in every way.

Liverpool has a very active com.mi.ttee -one of the 50 committees mentioned by my hon.

Friend the Member for Darking.

It produces some very good newsletters, which not only keep contact betwen the volunteers overseas and those who have sponsored them at home, but bring in parents and following appeared in one newsletter : friends.
The left for service.

"Last autumn 13 young people from Mer seyside returned home after completing a year abroad, and in the past few months 29 fresh volunteers who live in the region or were educated here have Of these 6 are being sponsored directly by V.S.O.

's Merseyside Committee-more than any other regional committee in this country, thanks to the generosity of local individuals, companies and trusts."

The more this can be done in other regions the better.
One of those spon sored is the son of Mr. Reginald Bevins, the former Pos•tmaster-General.

The second newsletter will give people on Merseyside and elsewhere an idea of the jobs that are being done: "Helen Crompton, from Speke, is teach ing in Ysabel, in the Solomon Islands.
Her experience if life in the Islands has included getting stuck on a reef in a canoe on Christ mas morning, wading waist-deep through rivers, and cooking dinner for the visit of the High Commissioner ... " A volunteer from Heswall is working on a community development project in New Guinea, which at present involves build ing an airstrip.

These are exciting and thrilling jobs that have to be done, and which need much initiative, spirit and common sense to see that they are done.
I should like to know whether the Par liamentary Secretary agrees with what has been written to me by a friend of mine, a don at the University of Liverpool, who writes: "As to Voluntary Service Overseas, in my experience this has been of immense benefit to the students who engage in it before coming to the University .

.

.
.

.

This, however, with one proviso, that the student concerned should not in any way preju dice his future career by it, and that means that he should obtain good "A" level marks if be can get them before he leaves, and secondly, his school should make the necessary arrange ments on his behalf to secure a university place for him when he returns.

That can best be done by personal contact between the school head and the head of a university department.
We could mortgage our places a year or two ahead in this way, though it is all rather com· plicated by the University Central Council for Admissions Clearing House scheme."

I should very much like to have the Parliamentary Secretary's comments on that aspect.

There are not enough graduates.

There a-re not enough ex-apprentices.


I believe that there are enough of the right spirit and charaoter in the cadet section to be splendid ambassadors for tJbis country and wiho would go out and give their services wi;thout expecting any monetM"y return.

The United Kingdom has shown the way to the Peace Corps.

V.S.O.

was earlier in establishment and it has shown that the youth of Britain is not effete.
If the tensions between the rich and poor na.tions are to be relaxed, if we are to come closer together- and this is an immensely important job which we all there is no better way have to tackle- trhan it!hrouglh volit.1ntary service overseas.

2.59 p.m. Mr. Robert Carr (Mitcham): I, too, would like to congratulate the hon.

Mem ber for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) on his good fortune in the Ballot and on his choice of this subject.
I must say that I look upon his good fortune with a little envy, having been in the House for 15 years and never having succeeded in winning rt.he BaMot.

It seems s1ightly un fair that he should do so after only six months.

However, I can assure him that any envy is more than made good by his choice of subject today.

This is a subject which hon.

Members on both sides of the House want to debate 943 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 944 [MR.

CARR.]
CARR.]

and which, they feel, we do not get sufficient opportunity to debate.

Perhaps it highlights one of the paradoxes of our Parliamentary life that a subject on which there are no great party divisions tends to be, however important, a subject which, alas, gets neglected on the Floor of the House and for time for which we are more dependent than otherwise on the wisdom of private Members in taking opportunities to bring them before us.

I am sure that we are all grateful to the hon.


Member for his choice of subject, as I have said, because not only have we had an interesting debate about an important subject, but it has been a debate in which hon.

Members from both sides of the House have brought to us direct personal knowledge as well as a great interest.

The Motion has as its main theme the appeal to youth and the part that youth can play.

I am sure that young people need an ideal, something outside them selves as a purpose to serve.
So does the nation as a whole.

A major theme is ready to hand in this theme of service to the developing countries, to help them in the battle against poverty and the ill health, ignorance and lack of any fullness of life which inevitably go with poverty.

As my hon.

Friend the Member for Torquay (Sir F .


Bennett) made only too clear in some of the personal experiences which he gave us, poverty of a degree which people in this country can scarcely comprehend, unless they have been over seas and seen it for themselves, is stultify ing the lives of hundreds of millions of the world's population, and it is a poverty which is liable to get worse and not better unless we who live in the rich countries intensify our efforts.
On present trends, the world's population will double in the next 30 years and most of that staggering increase will come in the areas where poverty is already at its worst.

It will need an enormous effort of development if we are to maintain present standards, still less succeed in increasing them.

Basically, this task of development can be accomplished only by the efforts of the developing countries themselves.

It cannot be done by aid.

Aid can only help at the margins.


We must help, we mus<t do ailil we oan to helip, as must other rich countries, but basically it can be done only by the developing countries themselves.

Let us be quite clear about it-they want it that way.

Not only do they know that they have to do it that way, but they want it that way, because they are looking not for charity, but for help.

two main reasons.
two main reasons.

The I am sure that it is a moral challenge which this country has to accept to give them as much help as we can possibly afford.

While it is a moral challenge, I have never thought it wrong to declare that it is also in our self interest to give them this help.
It is in our self interest tension for created by the growing gap between the richer and poorer nations could in the end be as dangerous to our existence as the threat of war itself, and perhaps one of the most likely causes which could lead to a war eventually would be if that tension were allowed to grow.
The other self interest is that we in Britain cannot hope in the long run to find big enough markets for our exports-and, as we all know, without them we cannot maintain, let alone increase, our own prosperity unless there is a big increase in the stan dard oif l-iving and therefore the purohas ing power of the major part of the world's population.

So there is this self interest as well as the moral challenge.
In the last six or seven years, Britain's aid expenditure has more than doubled and last year was running at about £175 miHion a year, approximately 90 per cent.

of it going to the Commonwealth.

We all very much hope that the econo mic position of this country will be such that that expansion will continue year by year .

It is not only British public aid ex penditure which helps these countries.
British private investment also plays ~n important part, and until a year or two ago it was providing about another £150 million a year for the developing countries, making a grand total from this country of something over £300 million a year-more than 1 per cent, of our gross national product.

Unfortunately, in the last year or two, private invest ment has declined for various reasons.
I promise not to be controversial about this today, although we may wish to be controversial about it on another occa sion, but it is a fact that, unfortunately, the act-ions which the Chancellor of the Exchequer took recently in his Budget ...L ~ t • I ,.

 945 Overseas Se,vice 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 946 arc bound to give a further push down wards to British private investment in developing countries.
Another very important British con tribution has been the voluntary cam paigns-Oxfam, Freedom from Hunger, in which hundreds of and thousands, if not millions, of our people have played a part by their donations and active interest and work.

like- the But the principal point of this debate is to bring out that gifts and loans of money and goods and food, however im portant, are not enough, or even the principal part of the task which we have to undertake.
What is needed most to help the developing countries to become self-sustaining is the transfer of know ledge and understanding on a vast scale -knowledge about how to grow better crops, how to manufacture better and new products and how to manage the organised processes of government.

This is a matter of service by people.

It involves essentially the exchange of people.

It involves us in bringing many people from the developing countries to Britain to train at our universities and technical colleges.
in our industries, and the like.

Here for some years we have been playing a part second to none.

It involves- and also the main subject under debate today- sending British people to serve overseas.

this is indeed centuries.

Fo.r:tunaitely, the can of distant parts and the attraction of working and serving overseas has been strong in Britain for many generations- In the past that call could easily be satisfied in the form of a whole life's career.
Many people have gone out from this country, whether they be in the Services.

in government, or in industry and com merce, lives overseas.

their working live to It cannot be denied that for many rea sons the opportunity of a lifetime career for British people overseas has declined, is declining and will probably continue to decline.
But that does not mean to say-and this is one of the reasons why the debate is important-that there are not vastly growing opportunities for shorter periods of service overseas.

This is one of the things which it is most im portant should be understood more widely in tJhe counrtry.

Vol.

712 i-n inward-looking approach One of the causes, perhaps, for a cer tain this country in recent years has been the feel ing that there is no longer a need for British people to serve overseas.
But I beLieve -that there is, even tihougih it takes an entirely different form.

The new Englishman-and I suppose that I must also say the new Scotsman, new Welsh man and new Ulsterman-going abroad whl'l increasingly have a wider range and va:Piety of experience and skiH wibh essen tially a home-based career, but wi11 give up a few years of his working life to serve in developing countries overseas.
There is an enormous and growing need for this sort of service, and it should be more widely understood in the country.

That is why I welcome the fact that the Motion ties the general need with the practical need for publicity if this point is to be understood.

I agree about that, but a few qualifications about publicity If I now make ~hem, I are neoessary.
hope that what I have already said will make it clear that I am not qualifying this drive for publicity in any carping sense, certainly not in any sense which It is, however, ex tacks enthusiasm.

tremely important that the information and publicity to our youth should be carefully directed in content and direc tion.
I ~ It would, for example, be a bad thing if as a result of too big a wave of pub lidty to a:11 our schools we we·re to stimu late a really large offer of voluntary recruitment for overseas, which would be frustrated because, although the places for those people abroad might poten tially exist, they had not been organised and, therefore, the volunteers found them turned back.

That would not selves only disappoint them and frustrate them, but it would have a bad effect on those coming after them.
Therefore, the pub licity effont must be matched to the growth in demand from the developing countries.

It is true that by our own organisation we can help to stimulate and organise that demand from overseas, but in the end it depends upon the actual requests which come forward from the indepen dent Governments of the developing countries.

We cannot overcome that fact.

We cannot simply say, "You need these people " and send them out.
The in dependent Governments must be aware Q 947 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) [MR.

CARR.]

of their needs, define them and put them forward in actual requests to which we can respond.

The rate at which we stimulate recruit ment must also be conditioned by the growth of the organisation of the volun tary societies in this country which are dealing with the voluntary overseas effort.
It has been clear from the debate today that while we pay great tribute to the work of the American Peace Corps, we feel that we are in an entirely different position and that we are right' to keep this volunteer service of young people away from being a Government agency and, therefore, in the hands of voluntary organisations.
When I looked at this matter when I was the Minister respon sible over a year ago, I had no doubt that it was worth even sacrificing some thing in the rate of expansion to keep this independent voluntary basis for our young people going overseas to give this service.

in the right stages My second qualification about the type and purpose of our information and puib1ici,ty to schools is .thart it must be designed to stimulate the right sort of recruits at their careers.

Several hon.
Several hon.

Members have said in the debate that we must have regard to the skills actually required by the developing countries and also the age at which developing countries want to have people.

Here again, it is in the end the wishes and the desires of the developing themselves that we have to countries meet rather than our own wishes or de sires or what we, in our wisdom or lack of it, think that the developing countries want.

We have to cope with what they themselves want.


At this point, it is important to put into perspective the pattern of British service overseas.

I was glad that this was referred to by several hon.

Members, notably my noble Friend the Member for Hertford (Lord Balniel), as well as my hon.

Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Summers), my hon.

Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart) If we are and hon.

Members opposite.
Members opposite.

not careful, there can be too easy a com parison between the scale of our volun teer effort and that of the American Peace Corps.

They are not comparable.

They ought not to be comparable.

In saying that, one is not in any sense taking a superior attitude to what we are doing 948 the American compared with what Peace Corps is doing.
Wihat has to be taken into account if we want to compare the B6tish and United States effort in this field is that in total there are more British people serving in the developing countries than there are people from the United States.

Our young volunteers comprise only one strand in our efforts, whereas in the United States they comprise easily the biggest strand in theirs.

We really have three strands in our overseas service.
They number, as my noble Friend the Member for Hertford pointed out, between 15,000 and 20,000 British men and women working in the developing countries, a very large num ber.

The first strand is the strand of the permanent career officers, the relics - I use the term in no disrespectful sense -of the o~d Colonial Service.
This cate- gory is inevitably deolining in number year by year, because, although most of them are now working as officers, not for Britain any more, but for the independent Governmenits of the developing countries, those Governments are fairly rapidly, and naturaHy, replacing them witih their own nationals.

So that is a strand of overseas service which is declining.
It is being replaced, as muoh as we can, as I understand it, by t,be second strand, namely, recruitment on a oonitract basis for two or three years' service overseas of professional men and women in this country, with home-based careers, who go overseas on contract for a short time.

This is the major strand.

Then there is the third strand, our young volun teers, and they, too, are growing in numbers, and I think that we all hope that in numbers.

they wiU.
they wiU.

continue to grow However, in talking about having an increase in the number of our young volunteers we must take account, as J say, of the desires and wishes of the developing countries themselves.

Because what is it they want?

First and foremost they want to have men and women from this country who are both qualified and experienced.

That is what they want first of all.

They can get them from Britain, they can get them from France.
They cannot get them on such a large scale from, for example, the United States.

That is not a criticism of the United States.

It is an effect of the different 949 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 traditions and histories of the different countries.

The developing countries first of all want qualified and experienced people, and when they have got as many of this sort of men and women as they can get, then they are very glad indeed to have our young volunteers to supple ment them.
I think it may well be, as my noble Friend said, that as the years r,o by there may be in the developing countries a smaller differential between the graduate volunteers and those under taking contract work.

They may come togetlher.

I think it is too earJy to say.

However, for the moment those coun tries first of all want qualified and experienced people from here.
It is no disrespect to our young volunteers to say so, but in our enthusiasm to see an increase in the number of our volun teers it is a fact we must take into account, and we should be very foolish not to do so.

Then the other thing which we have got to take into account, if I may say so with respect to the hon.

Member for Ealing, North who moved the Motion, and perhaps to one or two other hon.

Members who have sp0ken, is that the developing countries are not short of labour.
Therefore, we must not try to stimulate recruitment for our people to go overseas to do jobs which can and should be done by the people of the over seas countries themselves.

We must rea lise that there could be sensitivity on this point in those overseas countries.
There fore, that is why, although one is easily inclined to say " Hear, hear " to the sug gestion that we ought to have more arti• sans and more levels of skill, I am not so sure that that is really so when one reflects a little more fully about it.
Of course, we want to send artisans-I do not like that word, but it has been used today and so I go on using it- but not very large numbers of people in order to go out to do those sorts of things, but rather as trainers, in order to help them in those countries to train their own artisans.
Mr. W. T. Williams: One appreciates, of course, that one does not want just to flood the under-developed countries with labourers when they have plenty of their own, but on the other hand, for instance, bricklayers, people with agri cultural of people-could go to enable the workers experience- those sorts Vol.

712 (School Leavers) 950 of those countries to pick up those skills of which they have now only the most think that rudimentary knowledge.

what my hon.
what my hon.

Friends and I were saying was that while we send people with high levels of skills we should send out people who can work with the ordinary working people out there-on the floor, to put it that way-to teach them these prac tised skills.

I Mr. Carr : As long as one is sending these people with the emphasis on teach ing the local people rather than doing the job for them then I agree and I think it is worth bringing up that point.
I think the difference on this is more It is something on apparent than real.

which I think we all agree.

With the needs of the developing countries in mind I think we should realise that publicity to the schools, as far as stimulating recruitment for volun teer service overseas is concerned, should be limited to those schools with sixth forms, technical colleges, agricultural in• stitutes, the apprentice schools of large industrial undertakings, youth organisa tions and the like.
I do not believe that it would be much good directing such publicity at secondary modem schools because it would be directed at people who would be too young when they leave school for immediate recruitment over seas even if they had enough skill and I want to make it clear that experience.

and all schools, secondary modem schools, should have as much general in formation as possible about the needs and the opportunities in respect of service overseas and about the real conditions overseas.
The publicity should create among these younger people a climate of opinion which they will carry on into later life when they will be of age and experience when their services will be I do not think it would be wise needed.

to direct immediate recruiting propaganda at children in schools without a sixth form.

Mr. Freeson : On this point I do not think it was ever intended that youngsters should be encouraged to leave school at 15 and 16 and then go abroad.
But there are youngsters who will go into apprenticeship training and later in that period could serve in other countries.

I have personally witnessed this.

02 951 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School L eavers) 952 Mr. Carr : I fully agree with the hon.

Gentleman.
Gentleman.

The only other things I want to say about publicity is that I think that aH our publicity to the sohools and colleges must be matched-and I know this is more difficult and we are trying to make it more effective-by publicity directed towards employers and profes sions.
We are not going to get people feeling as free as they would like to be to volunteer after leaving school and university, before starting their careers, to undertake a period of service overseas unless it can be regarded as something which stands to their credit in terms of progress in their career or employment at home.

This is not yet sufficiently widely understood by employers or leaders of professions and there must be publicity on this point.
Publicity must also be directed towards the population at large in order to oondi tion parents.

This is particularly so when we are tarllcing about youngsters volun teering for a period overseas because parental support is extremely important.

I have felt until quite r.ecently this was pretty readily forbhcoming but I have heard it said recen~ly, I cannot really judge what substance there is in it, that there is some fear arising among parents now about letting their children go over seas at an early age.
There may also perhaps be some disilfosionment with the purpose.

I hope these reports are wrong burt I ,tJhink we should guard against them.

Therefore our publicity efforts shouM be general which is why I am glad that films are being made and will soon be shown on this subject.

We ought to give great attention to creating a opinion atmosphere favourable throughout the population, not only among school-leavers.
Perhaps one might say in passing that we ought to have a special course for girl friends, because I suspect that they could be one of the strongest deterrents for the young man thinking of serving overseas for one or two years.

of · ~ I conclude by putting a few questions to the Parliamentary Secretary.

First, I have one or two questions to ask on the subject of our young volunteers.

When 11 will the hon.


Gentleman be telling us something about the plans for the 1966-67 I share the concern expressed season?

about this by my noble Friend the Mem ber for Hertford.

Tihe hon.

Gentleman l • - .

.

:...
wi.lil know-and we have exchanged views on this at Question Time-that I was art pains to announce the plans for the yearing beginning September 1965, that is this year, as early as February of last year, and I am a little concerned that the plans for the year beginning September, 1966, are not yet known, because, from what I have got to know about the subject, it seems to me, that this is a field where in finding projects overseas, in recruiting, in the selection machinery, and so on, we have to plan some time ahead if we are to get the expansion that we would a,11 like to see.
I do no,t necessarily agree with all that was said by my noble Friend the Mem ber for Hertford- although I agree with most of it-but I should like to reinforce the importance of the subjects which he put before the House.

I think that they are worithy of, indeed require, most seri ous consideration by the Government.
I think that what he said about organisa tion, selection, pre-training, and so on, are subjects which, if we are to expand the young volunteer movement, are in need of careful study, and perhaps even some change.

Can the hon.

Gentleman tell us, if not today, by some other method, perhaps in a staitement in answer to a question, how , the work of the Council for Volunteers Overseas, which was established under the presidem.cy of His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh just over a year ago, is going on?
This is particularly relevant to this Motion because the prime purpose of this Council was to stimulate It interest throughout the community.

was not to have executive powers, but was to be a focus of national interest, and we would like to hear how the Council is going on.

Moving away from volunteers to more general matters relating to overseas ser vice, may I ask the Parliamentary Sec retary whether he has any information about how the recruitment of professional experti.5 is going?
Over recent years it has moved upwards in an encouraging man ner.

Has the hon.

Gentleman got later figures which will show that the curve is still upwards as we all hope it is?

Can the hon.

Gentleman give us any information about creating a professional service for oveI1Seas work?

This was raised by the hon.


Member for Kingston 953 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 upon Hu1H, Wes,t (Mr. James Johnson), who referred to the Estimates Committee recommendation of a few years ago being turned down by my old Department.

I think that it was right to turn it down because I do not think that a general overseas service would have met the needs, and the reasons for that decision were explained in a White Paper tabled by my predecessor.
But, having turned down what I do not think was a good idea, I think that we have now reached the stage where a more limited service, or perhaps a series of services, in different professions, forming a permanent career nucleus of expe~t advice in teaching, medicine, agriculture, and other things, could be very valuable.

Can the hon.
Can the hon.

Gentleman give us any information about what action his Minis try is taking to create more posts in home-based institutions over and above what are strictly necessary for home needs?

If we are to get a surplus of people who have 1'he secUTi,ty of a home based career, but are free to go overseas for a few years, it follows as a natural corolfary 1'ha1: in many home-based in stitutions we must have more people than we require for the work at home.
A small start was made in this direction under my old Department of Technical I hope that we shalJ go Co-operation.

further in that, and I hope that the Par liamentary Secretary will be able to say something about it today, or in the near future.

level inoludJng and establishments, co1lege There are many other questions that I could ask, but I will restrain myself and ask only two.

Can the hon.
Can the hon.

Gentle man tell us whether there have been any new developments in establishing links between universities and other ed uca tional at teohnica,J their counterparts, in 1:ihe developing coun t11ies?
Can he a'lso give us any more information about the development of the Study and Service Scheme, of which the sending of teachers to East Africa was the classic first example-where teachers went to Makerere University, finished their professional qualifications there, and in return undertook to go on teaching for a year in that part of the world?

When I was in the old Department of Tech nical Co-operation we felt that this was a useful and practical development, which I hope will be further extended.

Vol.
Vol.

712 (School Leavers) to go.

954 I am sure that never has there been a greater opportunity than there is to day for British people to serve abroad.

Nor has the welcome for them been I am sure more warm than it is today.
tha;t we wouild aiH agree rt!hat we must do all we can to make it possible for If only more British people enough British people will pack their bags and get out inro the world, not any more to rule but to serve, to aid and also to trade, there will be no doubt about Britain's role in the world-no question about whether we are inward looking.
On the contrary, there will be a sense of confidence and purpose, and a faith which comes from knowing that we shall be using our inheritance for the service of the future- both our future and the developing the countries.

3.31 p.m. future of ' The Parliamentary Secretary to _the Ministry of Overseas Development (Mr. Albert E. Oram) : F irst, I join with tJhe right hon.

Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) and other hon.

Members who have spoken in this most valuable debate in congl.

'llJtulating my hon.


Friend the Mem ber for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) on his good fo11tune in the Ballot and his choice of su bject.

Unlike the right hon.

Mem ber for Mitcham, on one occasion I was lucky in the Ballot and was ambitious enough to persuade the House to appoint a Select Committee to examine its pro cedures and to reform them.

My hon.

Friend has been rather more ambitious ; I do not he wants to reform the world.

say that in any facetious way.

My hon.


Friend has chosen a most im portant subject, and I am sure that he will feel gratified with the tone and policy of the debate that has hinged upon it.

If he has any disappointment, I suspect it is that-as I know from my conversa• tions with him-he thinks that the debate has tended rather to over-emphasise the voluntary service aspect of the Motion.
But he has made me aware, as his speech did, that he has in mind the need for a broader area of recruitment, not only for volunteers, but for tihose in paid appointments overseas.

Perhaps some of my remarks will redress the balance.

I am glad that my hon.

Friend stressed what we would all wish to stress, namely, that in offering new thoughts and in sug gesting new lines of attack he was not Q3 955 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 956 [MR.

ORAM.]
ORAM.]

offering any criticism of what has been and is being done.

He made it clear that although he wants information to be passed to schools of all grades, and desires school-leavers of all kinds to be made aware of the opportunities for ser vice overseas, this is not to be.
taken as a criticism of the valuable work of recruit ment that now goes on both for the cadet division of Voluntary Service Over seas and, particularly, in the work of the Lockwood Committee in the recruitment of graduates from the universities.

Likewjse, I do not in any way wish to cr.i•ticise or introduce any element of party olasih in this matter.

We recognise that in tlhe recruitment botih of volunteers and fuH-time workers we are building where the right hon.

Gentleman left off.
Gentleman left off.

Con sidembile progress was made witihi!l.1 the Department of Technical Co-operation.

We a1·e hoping to move forwa,rd, but we recognJse 1Jhe sound foundations upon whioh we are able to build.

Perhaps at tihis point I might attempt to answer one or two of rthe specific questions put to me by rigiht hon.

Member for Mitcham.

I am not able to give him all the specific information for wihioh he asked, but I am sure 1!hat he appreciates this.
He as!Qed me when an announce ment is to be made about 1Jhe progra mme for nex,t year in terms of volunJteers.

I am aware of 1'he need for as much notice as possible in this matter so that plans I assure the right hon.

can go aihead.

Gentleman is being actively pursued and I am hoping, as soon as I possibly can, 'l'o make an announcemenit.
t!he mat!ter that tJhe I wi.J1I oonsider what publicity might be given to the Council over which the Duke o.f Edinburgih presides, although I think that the night hon.

Gentfoman will recog nise that this is not a Council within the confines of the Minis,try, so to speak, so that it is not for me to advertise the valuable work which the Council is doing.

However, I wiH consider wherrher or not a suggestion can be put forward as to how the value of the Council's work can be made more widely known.
On tihe question of.

a career service, the expansion of the home-based and the a-ltemative to a career service, 1lhat is, the ra<tJher smal'ler specialist corps, rtihese are subjects whioh are aotively being cons-idered in ,the review of recruimient which has been announced by my right hon.

Friend, but I think it!he House w:ill recognise .1Jhat vhis is not sometihing 1:!hat can be done in a flash.

It has to be carefulily examined, profession by pro fession.
We a,re very much aware of the virtues of the expansion of ;the home base concept and upon that I think that we should be abJe ro report progress.

As to the Study and Service Scheme, I agree with the right hon.

Gentleman that this was a most important initiative which was taken.

I have not any figures to offer the right hon.


Gentleman here, but this service is proceeding in Makerere.. which he mentioned, and there are moves to extend it elsewhere, pa•11~icuia11ly in It is a most connection wirh Salisbury.

promising sphere of activity.

The right hon.

Gentleman also asked how t!he programme of recrui,tment od: full time personnel is going.

He wm recognise ~hat I have no foH year figures to give him, but up •to t!he end of April 11his year 523 appointments had been made.
Since tihe ma,in recruitment s·eason has not yet come upo111 us I think it!he rigihit hon.

GentiJeman wiiH recognise tihat at t1:1his stage rhis is promising evidence.

The Motion which the House is con sidering is rightly centred upon the need to inform youth-our school-leavers, our students-about the possibilities which exist for helping in this enormous prob lem of overcoming world poverty and misery.

We in the Ministry welcome very much the terms of the Motion moved by my hon.

Friend.
Friend.

I would just say, how ever, that although the Motion refers to youth, this is something which is much broader than an appeal to youth.

Every one, of every age almost one could say, has something to contribute in some way or other.

There are enormous oppor tunities throughout the world and.

in deed, in this country whereby anyone with the right understanding of world problems and wiith vhe spirit of advernture and willingness to serve one's fellow men in an international sense can do this.
I share the sentiment expressed by the right hon.

Member for Mitcham about tihe need and the difficulty of gauging If I may how far to go with publicity.

give a personal example, I made a public speech in which I urged the same kind 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 958 Overseas Service 957 of message as has been urged today by my hon.

Friend in his Motion.

After mak-ing sudh a speeoh one gets a spate of correspondence.
On examining my correspondence I found that there were a number of very good letters, but, at the same time, quite a number of the writers, however well intentioned, through some lack of understanding-as it would appear from letters-were not exactly the kind of persons who would find an opportunity in this field.

their This is not to say that publicity is dan gerous.

It is very much needed.


One aspect of the debate which I welcome is the fact that it will attract attention and add to the necessary publicity, but there is the opposite difficulty that pub licity can be so easily overdone.

I have pointed out that the Motion deals with paid employment and volun to say a word tary service.

I wish about each of those aspects.


Before doing so, perhaps I might enumerate a number of points- I was glad to notice that in several instances they were the same as were put forward by the right hon.

Gentleman-which are connected with full-time employment and voluntary service.

A important considerations number of apply to both.

The first was empha sised by a number of speakers; it is that developing countries do not want manpower as such.

the consideration of I noted the point made by my hon.
Friend the Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson), in a particularly well informed soeech.

He said that in not every case - is there an unemployment problem and in not every case is it true to say that developing countries would not welcome unskilled labour.

think that my hon.

Friend would I accept the general proposition that the problem of the developing countries is not one of manpower generally, but of skills.

People with qualifications and skills are very much needed.
Here we come to what I am sure is the nub of the Motion.

We should not have <too narrow, itoo academic a conception of what constitutes skills or qualifications.

I feel that sometimes not only we in this country but the people responsible for affairs in the recipient and development countries set too great Vol.

712 a store on a piece of paper listing par ticular qualifications.

These are not unimportant but their value could be overestimated.
We must recognise that practical skill combined with the right character and experience can be equally as valuable-in many cases it may be more vahiable-as what might appear to be a perfect paper qualification.

I am sure that it is true that a skilled electrician, or a mechanic who could maintain vehicles such as tractors, and the people referred to by my hon.
and learned Friend the Member for Warring ton (Mr. W. T. Williams) skilled in the management co-operative societies, not necessarily as general managers of large retail societies but perhaps in some less exhalted position bookkeeping or something of that kind -given the right arrangements- and here there is a big question mark could be of enormous value overseas.

of My second point is that.


both in regard to what we are asked for and what we are able to supply, there tends to be a preponderance of teachers.

When one looks at the world scene, one is not sur prised, because one of the giant enemies against which we are fighting is the enemy of ignorance.

It is natural that people who are coming to new nation hood, conscious of their ignorance and that of should be desperately anxious for teachers of all kinds.
Therefore, we are right today to stress the need for other kinds of skills.

This does not mean that we think that there is undue emphasis on teaching as a vital need in the poorer parts of the world.

children, their I would stress, also, that there are other places where one can teach than in the classroom.

There are other methods of learning than under a formal teacher.

I go along with all the hon.


Members who have said that the important thing is to have the skilled man- the electrician or the mecha nic- living and working side by side with people who are hungry for that kind of skill and teaching them by that work, the same operation as maintaining their vehicles, and not neces sarily in the classroom.

in My third point is one which was taken very fairly and well by the right bon.

Member for Mitcham.

It relates particu to certain phrases in my hon.


larly Q4 959 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 960 [MR.

ORAM.]

Friend's Motion, and the question a t what age it is sensible or efficacious to appeal to young people.

One wants to make an appeal to all kinds of schools, but one is up against the fact that at some schools, children leave at the age of 15 or 16.

This is too young an ;;ige - my hon.


Friend recognised this-to make a direct appeal to them to go, six months' hence, to serve overseas.

But it is no,t '1:00 young~ tlhis is what I t!hink my hon.

Friend has in mind- to instil in them a knowledge of the opportunities, and to inspire them with the will to take part themselves as soon as they reach the proper age, to form themselves into part of this vast peace army which is needed.

look at My hon.
look at My hon.

Friend suggested that ~t might be possible to have a register.

I am not sure that that would be practicable, but we shall certainly it.

One envisages that there would be a great deal of change in a young person's out look between the ages of 15 and 20 and a change in his or her circumstances.

There might not be a very efficient way of keeping touch.
This is a tremendous problem with which I have been wrest ling, and I have not yet reached a solu tion of how to be able to keep touch with the people who either did not go to a school at which the normal leaving age was 18, or to a university where there is another natural break at the gradua tion point.

l,t is at these two points th at greatest successes in recruitment for voluntary work come about.
T hese are the points at which school-leavers, so-called, and the graduates, so-called, are recruited, but for the others there is no such natural time break.

This does not mean that we have to be defeated in our effort to get these other people to come along ; it just means that the problem is much more difficult.

It is only one of a series of difficulties which face us in this con nection.

T his does not detract from the value of my hon.


Friend's suggestion, be cause even at the age of 15 or 16 there is work to be done.

There is a job to be done for Oxfam or some of the other voluntary societies which is just as valu able as packing up one's bags and going a~roa".l to do a year or two years' ser vice.
My fourth general point, which applies both to voluntary service and to full-paid employment, is that it is easy to arouse enthusiasm, to get volunteers and to get people anxious to work overseas- we must do this, and are doing it- but it is more important to make sure that we can effectively channel the energy which we arouse.

We know, of course, over whelmingly, that ,there are jobs to be done, but the important administrative task is to fit the right person into the right place at the right time.
Although as a general proposition that sounds all right, it is not always so easy to achieve it in detail.

This is related to a point made by my hon.

Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson), the hon.
Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart) and others about the need for a more effective liaison overseas on our behalf to make sure ,that, in conjunction with the overseas government, we know what suits their purpose and how the job which they invite us to do fits into their own development plans.

I entirely agree that it is very important to make su1:e t,ha,t the personnel we recruit are the k ind of people that ,they want and that the work which they will do will be of the most benefit to their economy.
The fifth general point, which again was pin-pointed by the right hon.

Mem ber, is that it is not enough to appeal to young people.

We also need to create a climate of opinion among their employ ing organisations of all kind, private and public, local authority ·and national, to make them aware that service overseas is not a handicap or an unpleasant necessity but an enormous asset.
Short as we are of teachers here, and illogical as it may appear to send teachers abroad for service overseas, they will come back better teachers.

This should not, there fore, be some assistance which we are giving to the developing countries.

It is very much a two-way business.

We gain just as much as we give through this process.
simply as regarded I must be much briefer, I fear, in deal ing with the particular points which apply, first, to full-time paid appointments and, secondly, to voluntary service.

I stress that the British contribution in trans ferring skills abroad is not strictly to be 961 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 (School Leavers) 962 compared, as some hon.
Members have compared it, with the American effort ; in other words, what we do on a voluntary basis cannot be compared with what the Peace Corps does on a similar basis, because that would forget the 10,000 British people who are serving abroad under the Overseas Service Aid Scheme, of which there is no American equivalent.
I do not want to enter into a Dutch a uction on this-no one does-but I stress that a large part of our contribution is not in the voluntary service but in the full-time employment which we provide through special inducement payments and additional expense allowances.

Secondly, in connection with full-time appointments, we must take account of the specific needs which are put to us by overseas Governments.
They tend to be for teachers, trainers of teachers, people for essential administrative posts in the public services and expert advisers who can analyse development problems and help them get their development projects off the ground ; in other words, high level people.

suitably provide.

I am wondering whether perhaps .


this pattern of requests has become somewhat conditioned by what they believe we can most If overseas Governments knew that there was a spirit abroad as expressed in the Motion-that there is a different kind of human material in this country willing to serve if only the proper organisation of their skills can be made---the pattern of demand made to us in the form of requests could chane;e in a way which would facilitate the purposes which my hon.
Friend has in mind in the Motion.

I am sure both that there is an enormous need for what my hon.

Friend the Member for Willesden.

East, called the middle grades of tech nofogy and tlha,t ,tibere is an enormous sphere of recruitment at present untapped which we should try to use.

Time is short so I will make a few comments about the voluntary services.

I endorse everything that has been said in praise of the voluntary organisations.

There has been some emphasis from this side of the House on the I.V.S.
and from hon.

Gentlemen opposite on the I will, therefore, say nothing V.S.O.

about either, beyond stressing that they are two partners in a fourfold partner ship and that we should also remember our friends in the United Nations Asso c1at10n and the National Union of Students, who are equally joined in the Lockwood Committee.

The hon.
The hon.

Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair), speaking about the Peace Corps, said that we should not get into an atmosphere of rivalry but realise that everything we can do is all too little in face of the enormous problem that exists.

So the various voluntary organisations in this country.

They are not rivals, but partners ; and we have the voluntary organisation of the Lockwood Commit-tee to ensure that their work is co-ordinated.
is with it I am sorry that I missed the speech of the noble Lord the Member for Hert I have been told ford (Lord Balniel).

that he made a constructive and well informed contribution and I will certainly read his speech in the OFFICIAL REPORT, particularly since I believe that he made a number of suggestions on how the work of the Lockwood Committee might be improved and strengthened.

I assure him that I am interested in that possi bility and that I will consider bis sug gestions closely.
I endorse what has been said about the great value of the voluntary principle in all this.

One who has been schooled in the voluntary co-operative movement does not need to stand up and say that he believes in this principle.
Since I have been in my present office I have been impressed ·by~ the :the way value of voluntaryism is not only in the Co-operative movement, which I have known so well, but also in the recruit ment of volunteers for service overseas, which I knew less well until my duties brought me closely in contact with it.

in wlbiob I assure hon.

Members that, so far as my influence goes, it will be to bUJild upon the machine as I have found it.
That does not mean- and that is why I responded as I did to the suggestions of the noble Lord the Member for Hert ford-that we must rest content, be com placent and say that because we have a group of organisations which are doing splendid work we can ·1eave it at that.

We are conscious of a gap and, Mr.

I Speaker, I am conscious of the time.

I l - I 1 ,- 963 Overseas Service 14 MAY 1965 Private Members' Bills 964 [MR.

ORAM.]

do not know whether you wish now to put the Question.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved, That this House, whilst apprec1atmg the effort that is being made to help the developing countries, and believing that the youth of Great Britain would welcome the opportunity to make an effective contribution in this sphere, urges Her Majesty's Government to ensure that in formation and opportunities for all forms of service in overseas development are brought to the attention of students in our comprehensive, grammar and secondary modern schools, as well as those at universities, in the firm belief that the youth of our nation is eager and able to make its contribution to a better world.
ORDERS OF THE DAY MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL Read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Standing Com mittee pursuant to Standing Order No.

40 (Committal of Bills).

PROTECTION OF DEER BILL Order for Second Reading read.

Hon.

Members : Object.

Second Reading deferred till Friday next.

CARRIAGE OF GOODS BY ROAD BILL Read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Standing Com mittee pursuant to Standing Order No.

40 (Committal of Bills).

FARM AND GARDEN CHEMICALS BILL Hon.

Members : Object.
Members : Object.

Second R eading deferred till Friday next.

LABELLING OF FOOD BILL Hon.

Members: Object.

Second Reading def erred till Friday next.

ESTATE DUTY (DEFERMENT OF PAYMENT) BILL Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Second R eading [9th April].

Hon.

Members : Object.

Debate further adjourned till Friday next.

HIGHWAYS (STRAYING ANIMALS) BILL Order for Second Reading read.

Hon.

Members : Object.

Second Reading deferred till Friday next.


965 Private Members' Bills 14 MAY 1965 High-Pressure Sales 966 NATIONAL INSURANCE (FURTHER PROVISIONS) BILL Order for Second Reading read.

Hon.

Members : Object.

Second Reading deferred till Friday next.

PLUMBERS (REGISTRATION) BILL Order for Second Reading read.

Hon.

Members : Object.

Second Reading deferred till Friday next.

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (AMENDMENTS) BILL Order for Second Reading read.

Hon.

Members : Object.


Second Reading deferred till Friday next.

CLIENTS' MONEY (ACCOUNTS) BILL Order for Second Reading read.

Hon.

Members : Object.

Second Reading deferred till Friday next.

REPRESENTATION PEOPLE ACT 1949 MENT) BILL OF THE (AMEND Order read debate February].

on for resuming adjourned [12th Second Reading Hon.

Members : Object.

Debate further adjourned till Friday next.

HOUSE BUYERS PROTECTION BILL Order for Second Reading read.

Hon.

Members : Object.


Second Reading def erred till Friday next.

GUARDIANSHIP OF INFANTS BILL Order for Second Reading read.

Hon.

Members : Object.

Second R eading def erred till Friday next.

STRENGTHENING OF MARRIAGE BILL Order for Second Reading read.

Hon.

Members : Object.

Second Reading deferred till Friday next.

LICENSED BETTING OFFICES (RESTRICTION) BILL Order for Second Reading read.

Hon.

Members : Object.

Second Reading deferred till Friday next.


JUSTICES OF THE PEACE BILL [Lords] Read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Standing Com mittee pursuant to Standing Order No.

40 (Committal of Bills).

EMOLUMENTS OF TOP MANAGE- AND (DISCLOSURE MENT REGULATION) BILL Order read debate on Second R eading February].

for resuming adjourned [26th Hon.

Members : Object.

Debate further adjourned till Friday next.


HIGH-PRESSURE SALES PRACTICES 4.3 p.m. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-[Mr. George Rogers.]

Mr. Robert MaxweU (Buckingham) ; On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

My Motion on the reduction of the voting age has not been reached.

I wondered ':)61 High-Pressure Sales 14 MAY 1965 [MR.

MAXWELL.]

whether I would be entitled to move the suspension of Standing Orders?

Mr. Speaker: No.
Mr. Speaker: No.

The Question is, That this House do now adjourn.

4.4 p.m. carried out on Mr. Norman Dodds (Erith and Cray ford): I am pleased that once again 1 have the opportunity to expose an aspect of the scandalous exploitation of con sumers by slick businessmen, with tech niques cleverly designed and ruthlessly and blatantly an increasing scale that clearly reveals the weakness of our consumer protection laws.
The instigators of · this technique hail from America where, because of the introduction in recent years of stiffer consumer protection laws energetically carried out by the Federal Trades Com mission, they have found it more and more difficult to exploit the American public.

In Britain, however, they find a happy hunting ground amongst an increasingly affluent population, where the dice is so heavily loaded against the consumer and misleading advertising so prevalent.
This importation from America is a menace of some magnitude and there is a fur tJher dange·r in that our own" wide boys" are quick to pick up ideas which give quick and substantial returns.

I have mentioned the Federal Trade Commission in America.

Its two prin cipal purposes are to take action against monopolies and to protect consumers against false or deceptive advertising or commercial practices.
Today, the time available enables me to deal with only a narrow aspect of the exploitation of consumers_ To those who would like to know more about the rackets which are going on I recommend a first-class book on the subject, " A Foot in the Door" by Elizabeth Gundrey.

I only wish that I had the time to deal with some of them, particularly the racket with hearing aids and the exploitation of the deaf.

but this must be left to another occasion.


Today I am concentrating on two firms which are rea1ly one under two different names, the Concert Hall Record Club and Vitas,afe Plan (E ngland).

I was infonned on reliable information yester day that they are part and parcel of the l Practices 968 greatest mail order business in t:he world and their activities, therefore, are im mense.
In fact, I have been warned on two or three occasions that so powerful are they vhat I shall be knocking my head against a stone wall if I endeavour to protect consumers in this respect.

The Consumers Council, which is doing an excellent job, has issued a strongly worded statement on the activities of l!hese two firms and I congratufate the Council on its public-spirited action on behalf of consumers and on uhe valuable work which it is doing.
I should like also to express my appreciation of the Daily Mail which has done so much in researoh to warn the public about the blandiishmeots and blackmailing tech niques of the sharks in its midst, and I think that Mr. Harry Longmuir in this respect has done a wonderful job of work.

is The Concert Hall Record Club and Vitasafe Plan (England) use a majl order technique.
The public invited by advertisements in newspapers and maga zines to fill in an original order coupon for records or phlls to be sent, and they are delivered through the Je,tter box.

This is known as inertia selling, because the prospective customer whose name is on the coupon becomes a regular customer untill he fills in cards saying that he does If he does not Jill not want any more.

in the cards, he must take the trouble to pack and return further supplies, or he is charged for them.
In theory, this does not seem to be too much to complain about, until one sees how it works out in praotice.

J,here I have hundreds of are many instances- letters and there are many otiber sources where letters have been received-in which even when the cards saying that the pins are not required, or that one does not want to become a member of tihe club, have been s,igned, the deliveries con,tinue.
There seem to be two different sections, that seeking the business and delivering the goods and a legal depart ment which is the whole basis of the taotics which make people pay up rather than face the threat of being taken to court.

The are American, Mr. David Josefowitz, a direc tor until recently, and Mr. Samuel Jose Their names have appeared fowitz.

shareholders principal 969 High-Pressure Sales 14 MAY 1965 Praclices 970 prominently in cases in the American courts.
The corporation, Ill the American courts, while it did not admit any viola tion of the law, agreed to what is called a " cease and desist " from certain adver tising sales practices.

That was in 1957.

It signed the order, and that was the end of rhait case.

Last September it was found that it had not conformed wirt!h the order and the organisation was fined £6,000 for nine violations of the 1957 " Cease and Desist " order.
One of the most im portant things to be remembered about these activities is that, while solicitors' letters are going to all and sundry in thousands of cases, ,tlhey are printed jus,t as one would print letters.

They are absolutely the same.

Often the person's name does not appear, or the date.

The threat is tiha,t if people do not pay they will be taken to court in seven or 14 days.

There is no record of court action being taken in any single case, despite the flood of threats to do so.
This is not surprising, because under the law there is no basis for them.

No contract has been entered into and therefore there is no basis for court action, but these unscrupulous people use the threat of court action to extort money which they would not otherwise get.

This is a big business.

In the past two years tJhe Concert Hair!

Group has made trading profits of £135,000.

The a Mr. Leonard managing director, Joseph, came to Britain in 1963.
His right-hand man and co-director is Mr. Lionel P>hiMips, formerly a parbner in tJhe London solicitors' firm which sends out pre-printed letters threatening legal action against non-paying customers of Concert Hall and Vitasafe.

The name of the solicitors is Alan, Edmunds and Phillips.

There has been remarkable criticism about the way in which this firm of solicitors fits into what is a department of a trading concern.
The criticism has been such that the Law Society has asked for all letters of complaint to be sent to it so that it can look into them.

In a letter which I received yesterday, Mr. Joseph says that the Concert Han Record Club employs over 300 people and does several million pounds worth of business per year and maintains several hundred thousand accounts and that I believe there are customers.

240,000 accounts in this country.


But for the slick practice of obtaining names and addresses, it would be only a shadow of that number if the business was con ducted properly.

Companies operating a mail order system from adjacent premises in St. Ann's Crescent, London, S.W.18, are Concert , Hall Record Club Limited, Vitasafe Plan (England) Limited, the Corsano Company Limited and Leisure a Arts Limited.

majority last three companies.


In addition, Con cert Hall Record Club operates a department of "Voice Improvement Ser vice " which advertises and supplies re cords and vocal exercise books.

A further company, Heron Books, Ltd., also operates from this address.
Concert Hall the shareholder in is retailer of The complaints were T;he activities of the Corsano Company Lim~ted were publicised during September and October when promotional litera ture for the " Encyclopaedia of Sexual Behaviour" was widely distributed.

The Corsano Company was acting as direct mail this pub that lication.

the promotional literature was often ad dressed to minors and was considered undesirable.
Now the Corsano Company promotes an adjustable tailor's dummy for home use and sells a beauty treatment course.

Complaints have been made that goods paid for in advance were not sup plied until ithree months laiter.

With regard to the Concert Hall Record Club Ltd., here is a letter I received yesterday.

It states: "We have had dealings with the Concert Hall record club and have been inundated with sales literature offering not only records, but expensive books, vitamin pills a nd other commodities.
After a time we wrote asking for our mem bership to be terminated.

We continued for a time to receive offers of records and ulti mately began to get demands for payment for a record, not ordered, which we had received.

After the third demand, threatening legal action my wife, on April 20th, forwarded a cheque to clear this amount.

Despite this, we rece ived yesterday the en closed letter making a further demand for this amount which has already been paid by the above-mentioned cheque."
'Dhait is to say, three weeks after the cheque had been sent, payment was SJtill being demanded.

971 High-Pressure Sales 14 MAY 1965 Practices 972 [MR.

DODDS.]

The letter that is sent by Concert Hall Record Club is as follows: I beilieve tihe second of -~hose suggestions and 11here is a weal.fa of evidence to prove it.

to " I have today advised our solicitors .

.

.


Alan, Edmunds & Phillips, institute immediate legal proceedings against you for the collection of the amount indicated on the enclosed invoice, one week from today.

In the meantime I have asked our Auditors itemized statement of your to prepare an account so that when it is to our solicitors legal proceedings can be initiated immediately.
transmitted instituted, in addition telegram if necessary In short, unless full payment is received from you immediately your debt will be in the hands of our solicitors and o n proceedings being to the amount you already owe us we shall ask for such legal costs as may be appropriate.

To avoid this, I suggest you remit by special delivery or the full amount indicated on the enclosed invoice."
That is a mass-produced letter that is sent out in thousands, putting the wind up many people who owe nothing what ever but who have received records or tablets which have been sent to them, even when they have never filled in the form, but the firm claims that a friend or someone else has filled it in.

The " No " card which is sent back is often received by the people at a date later than they would be able to send it in to stop these pills or records com ing to them.
I should have liked a whole day in which to read out some of the letters ; that, of course, is asking too much.

To show one or two aspects, however, here is a letter which was received recently from Exeter: " .

.

.

you may be interested to hear that a record arrived here on Saturday, May 1st, addressed to a Mr. H. Pateman of this address.

From inquiries I have made it appears that Mr. H. Pateman died at least five years ago and his widow left this address somewhere around July, 1962.
Obviously this record must have been sent entirely unsolicited, or did Mr. Pateman rise from the dead and send in his order?"

Here is another, from Burnley: "I ordered , paid for and received a col lection of three records.

.

.

.

On examination I found that two of the records were the I returned one o f them with a request same.

replacement.

Afte r writing several for a times to them I received a handwritten note requesting the return of the remaining two records.
These were sent back to them, at my expense.

Since then, in spite of many requests for either a set of records or the refund of my money (£3 5s.

6d.

), I have heard nothing.

I can only conclude that the firm is either inefficient (which I do not believe) or is inherently dishonest."

Here is anobher : " Dear Parents, We have much pleasure in inviting you to founder member of enrol your child as a ' Children's Corner ' .

.

.
.

.

we are making you this exceptional offer: to give your child the opportun1ty to enjoy a richer and more in teresting life".

And so it goes on.

The recipient of tihat leHer ends wirtlh these words : letters.

There are, "Incidentally, I am a single person".

The clook is against me and I do not have time to 1£ead out as muoh as I should Like to show exact'ly wihat people aTe putting up with and the way in whicih t<hey are driven almost to become nelfVorus wrecks by t!
!he continuation and bauage of solicitors' in oidenta!lly, many doubts wbetiher t<hese sol:ici,tors' le-Hers come out of a solicitor's office, but tihere is mucih evidence to indica:te, wii1ih tlhe names tihey bear, that '!

'hey are solicitors' letters and itlhat 11hey come f,rom part of the de,pwbment wbiob is concerned witih this busiiness.
The 'Bharmaceu<t!ica:l Society of Great Bnitain, givJng its opinion, says tihait as falf as it is awaTe no member company was respon sible for the market:irng of Vitas,afe preparations and tthat if a phaDmacis1t were to I1eso-rt to tih~s reprehensible form of advertising the statutory committee wouiJd consjder taking disciplinary action.

I was very muoh interes,ted in what a in t:he courts in judge, Judge Lane, America declaTed : "This representation is false and misleading.
The evidence produced at trial conclusively proves that the above designated symptoms or conditions were caused by and associated with a great number of serious pathological diseases.

Further , although some of these symptoms may be associated with vitamin and mineral deficiencies, the likelihood of their being caused by or associated with vitamin or mineral de ficiencies is very small."

He estimated tJhat ·tibis was tme of about 20,000 people o:ut of 180 million the advertisemenrts ilil America.
Yet ,r,ead," Everybody needs this."

The judge said: "There is a danger involved in this type of labelling in so far as a person having one or more of the above-listed symptoms may reso·rt to a Vitasafe product as a cure.

Such a person may continue taking this vitamin produot for a long continued period, as he is 14 MAY 1965 P,actices 974 High-Pressure Sales 973 urged to do in the labelling of this product, and thereby fail to obtain competent medical help to correct his physical illness."
There are letters from all sorts of people indicating the great dangers which arise from advertising of this nature.

They are sent even to people who do not want them, to people who have tried them and know they do no good.

I have letters here to show that there is some suspicion that these advertisers are obtaining the names of people who are being treated under the National Health Service, and whose fears are be ing played on in this way.
I have here a letter addressed to a man in Ward 19 in a hospital.

I would not say it, under the protec tion of Privilege here in th is House, if I did not believe it to be true, but I believe that professional men are being to extort money, solicitors who used know fu]l well that there is no intention to take people to court because they know that there is no contractual agree ment as a basis for legal proceedings If we have this weak against them.
ness in our consumer protection laws it is one which should be closed sooner rather than later.

My hon.
Friend can do a great ser vice to the public today by warning tJhem ~hat when they have not ordered these goods, or if these goods have been ordered in somebody else's name, they do not have to worry about solicitl:ors' letters because the solicitors themselves know tha,t there is no basis in law for their wri.itmg rtlhe iuhreatening letters and tlhat what they are doing is extorting money from people whom ~hey frighten, but people who have never been in debt and would never be in debt but for these unscupulous sharks who will increase in numbers if we do not curb them.
These people receiving these letters are decent people, and they a nd good decent busi ness people find themselves at a great disadvantage.

It is the job of this House to protect the people, and warn tJhem of the dangers in this business.

4.25 p .m.

The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. George Darling): My hon.

Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds) has done a great service in bring ing this matter forward.
It will render an even greater one if we can get pub licirt:y for it, drawing atJtention to the fact, which is perfectly correct, that people who receive unsolicited goods through the post are not called upon to pay for them.

They can keep them.

They are under no obligation to post them back or to involve themselves in any expense of any kind.
Indeed, it might be possible, if they did get involved in legal pro ceedings, to make a charge for storing the goods until the firm which sent them took the trouble to collect them.

I am glad to have again this opportunity of saying that people are under no obliga tion to pay for goods sent to them without their asking for them.
The other kind of device used by the Concert Hall Record Club does not per haps, on the face of it, seem so unreason able in that it is supposed to be confined to people who have taken the initiative by writing for a low-price introductory In practice offer or something like it.

the result is much the same, and we have received, as my hon.

Friend has, com plaints from people who have received goods without answering an advertise ment, or even making any request of any .kind.
They have had demands for payment for goods they have not ordered.

Sometimes the excuse is put forward that the goods were ordered on their behalf by somebody else.

Whether that is true or not one does not know.

Certainly, many people who have written for these free introductory offers did not appreciate that if they did not send the card back they were going to go through all this business of having the records, or vitamin pills sent on to them month by month with requests for payments coming in.
We have also had evidence- I do not know how weighty it is in relation to the total number of customers-of people who say they have sent the " No " card back, but still they have received the goods and the threatening letters insisting that they pay up.

It may be that the system which is being operated lends itself to mistakes.

This is the explanation put forwa rd by the firm concerned.
They say that they have examined some of these complaints, and it seems that there has been a mix up in the office or an administ rative muddle of some kind.

They say it was not their intention to practise the methods my hon.

F riend has been complaining about.

The furn also say, in regard to ,-------- - ---- ----------.... ,.._.

................ -·•· - --- 975 High-Prnssure Sales 14 MAY 1965 Practices 976 as I have explained.
The rec1p1ent of unwanted goods is well protected by the law as it stands, which provides that he cannot be obliged to accept and pay for goods which he bas not ordered or to go to the trouble and expense of returning them.

In regard to Vitasafe Plan, the problem be raises is one which I should like to look at in conjunction with my hon.
Friend the Minister of Health because I think that Section 6 of the Food and Drugs Act gives sufficient legal protection against misleading advertise ments, if the advertisements are, in fact.

misleading.

We shall look into that.

These are methods of trading which, to put it on its lowest basis, the public find very irritating.

This business of troubling people with persistent letters, asking them to pay for gqods which they have not ordered, is something which we can, and must, bring to an end.
We can do it by giving the greatest amount of publicity to the legal situation which obtains at the moment.

I am very glad that my hon.

Friend bas given me the opportunity of saying these things, and of adding to the publicity job which he is doing so well.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at half-past Four o'clock.

[MR.

DARLING.)

records at any rate, that they have several hundred thousand satisfied customers.
I do not propose to comment on that because these are matters requiring examination and investigation.

But I would say that a system which lends itself to such mis takes and which causes members of the public the sort of worry and trouble described in some of the complaints I have seen and beard described today by my hon.

Friend is surely an un It ought desirable one to say the least.

not to continue ; or at least it ought to be tightened up very considerably.
I understand that the advertising in dustry shares the view that this method of trading the is undesirable, and responsible body will be making its views generally known about this as soon as possible.

that it recom mended to its Members in December that advertisements should not be accepted from companies using this type of trading method.

This recommendation has been generally adopted.


I also understand that some of the advertisements which have appeared since then have, in fact, been under contracts which were entered into before December.

I understand that My hon.

Friend has suggested that legislation is necessary to prohibit the sending of unsolicited goods through the post.
We do not need legislation for this, ~ "-- 123 WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 124 Friday, 14th M ay, 1965 CONVICTED CRIMINALS (PRESS ARTICLES) Mr. Steele asked the Prime Minister if he is aware of articles in the Press written by criminals convicted of security breaches describing their experiences ; and whether he will introduce legislation making it illegal for such criminals to make money by selling their stories to the Press.
The Prime Minister: As has already been made plain, :the Government thoroughly deprecate the practice of I under exploiting crime in this way.

stand that the Press Council have had this issue under consideration for some time and no doubt they will take into account the furither examples referred to by my hon.

Friend.
Friend.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD Protection of New Varieties of Plants (Convention) Mr. Ben Ford asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether Her Majesty's Government has yet reached a decision on the ratification of the Interna,tional Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants.

Mr. Peart: Yes.

The Government have decided to ratify this Convention and, steps are being taken to convey this decision to the depository power.
MINISTRY OF AVIATION Aldergrove Airport Sir Knox Cunningham asked the Minister of Aviation if he will give the latest forecast of the number of people who will pass through the civil airport at Aldergrove in County Antrim during and 1970, the years respeotively.
1968, 1969 Mr. Stonehouse : About 1,050,000 ; 1,150,000; and 1,250,000 Noise Abatement Society Mr. G. Johnson Smith asked the Minis ter of Aviation why he refused to allow representatives of the Noise Abatement Society to attend the sonic boom tests recently carried out by his Department.

Mr.

I was Stonehouse : Whoo.


approaohed by the Society I had to in form them that we could not accom modate any more visitors at Upwood itself, but I told them how they could hear the bangs and I am glad to see they listened from the adjoining village of Ram~ey.

London Airport Mr. Adam Hunter asked the Minister of Aviation what progress has been made with the domestic departure embarkation facilities at London Airport ; and if he wilJ.

make a statement.
make a statement.

Mr. Stonehouse : Extensions to the lounges and catering facilities have re cently been completed and the new pier, which will enable passengers to walk to nearby aircraft stands, should be in use by mid-June.
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE Teachers (Wembley Resident) Sir R. Russell asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if, in view of the shortage of teaohers, he will arrange for a trial period as a teacher in a State school to be given to a Wembley resident, whose name has been given <to him, whose Indian university and teacher-training qualifications do not quite fulfil his Department's requirements, in view of the fact that her personality, the English knowledge, command of language and perseverance are such that she would be a competent and valuable teacher.
Mr. Crosland: This lady's qualifica tions do not entitle her to the status of qualified teacher, though she can seek employment in an unqualified capacity.

But I must leave to the employing local the responsibility education authorities for all individual appointments to their schools.

125 Written Answers 14 MAY 1965 Written Answers 126 to reside.

By this thought owners are means we hope to reach all subjects affected.
Brit:ish North Waltham British Legion HaU Mr. David Mitchdl asked the Secre­ and Science will return the Legion Hall, sent to them on 18th 1965, in response to his tary of State for Education when his Department Trust Deeds of the North Waltham British February, Department's shire, dated 26th January, to the letter will reply 1964, sent to him on behalf of the North Waltham British Colonel reference 2 Miscellaneous, 1965; and when he AW414, A222, J. Mervyn Cox.
letter, I Hamp­ of 3rd December, Legion by Lieutenant­ BOARD OF TRADE Tankers Mr. Pounder asked the President of in excess of 75,000 tons gross the Board of Trade (1) how many tankers have been registered during the past three years ; and bow many of these ships shipyards.
were built in British in Great Britain Mr. Crosland: The Trust Deeds of Legion Hall the North Waltham British have now been returned to Lieutenant­ Colonel that I am willing tion for grant towards the cost of improvements him an applica­ Cox with a letter to consider to the hall.

advising (2)how many of the tankers in excess of 75,000 tons gross which have been registered during the past in Great Britain three years were built abroad ; and in which countries they were built.

Mr. Mason: None.
Mr. Mason: None.

UNITED ARAB REPUBLIC (BRITISH PROPERTY) Mr. Wan asked Lhe Secretary of State about the preparations negotiations statement for Foreign Affairs if he will make a further being made for governmental with the United Arab Republic future of British or nationalised December, property between 1964.

June, 1961, and on the re-sequestrated Mr. Padley: My hon.
Friend informed which has been by the or nationalised the House on 30th March that owners of British property sequestrated United Arab Republic 1st March, 1959, would shortly for detailed forms for this purpose will be sent in the very near future to all owners whereabouts the Foreign Office bas recent since be asked information knowledge.

of whose authorities about it.

Special Exports of the Mr.
Snow asked the President and New Zealand, adverse Zambia, in 1961 and January-Septem­ of trade with Rhodesia, Libya, Den­ Argentina, ; and if he will state the value be is aware of Board of Trade whether the United Kingdom's present halance Malawi, Nigeria, Ceylon, mark, Chile, Kuwait, Iraq, Venezuela, Brazil, Finland of exports ber 1964, at an annual rate, to each of those countries, dom, the United States Germany, non-electric machinery, machinery ing machine-tools, apparatus equipment, buses, woven, of synthetic organic dystuffs, colour lakes.
agricultural metal-work­ machinery, transport except motor-cars, fabrics, fibres, and synthetic natural indigo and from the United King­ West of America, and Canada, of power generating Switzerland, machinery, except electric, and implements, electrical and appliances, passenger other road motor vehicles, Arrangements have also been made to Mr. Redhead: Yes.

Exports to in a number of newspapers inviting with the Foreign all owners to com­ Office as soon.

insert a notice and journals municate as possible.


placed in all Consulates missions countries abroad and in the local press in where a large number of Rhodesia, were not recorded tables below relate to exports former Federation Nyasaland.

are for January available Zambia and Malawi separately and the figures in the to the and of Rhodesia The figures for Switzerland to June, 1964, the latest required.
in the detail notice is to be and High Com­ A similar ----------- ..... "" 'I ------------------ ------------------------ EXPORTS FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM U.S. dollars Thousand Co MM O DI TY � l Market Metal Electrical Passenger Other Fabrics ) Organic :i:.
Working Machinery Machinery Electric Machinery and Machine Apparatus Transport Equipment except Vehicles Synthetic Motor Cars Road Motor Power Agricultural Non Generating Macl1inery except Impelments Electric Tools and Appliances Buses � :::.· ,.. ;:: I Synthetic Woven, of Dyestuffs; i "' Natural Fibres Indigo; ;;; Colour Lakes I RHODESIA, ZAMBIA and MALAWI 1961 .

.

.

.

1964 .

.

.

.

NIGERIA 1961 .

.

.

.

1964 .

.

.

.

CEYLON 1961 .

.

.

.

1964 .

.


 .j:,.

� > ><!

981 - 'D °' V, 13,298 3,165 2,234 184 5,941 9,868 637 7,643 163 159 .

.

7,831 970 690 293 7,450 5,052 88 2,974 16 248 770 .... LIBYA 1961 .

.

.

.

4,739 2,588 5,264 839 3,693 40 1964 .

.

.

.


9,643 1,660 1,509 64 3,982 8,643 1,170 6,660 28 1,322 283 9 14 18 DENMARK 1961 .

.

.

.

1964 .

.

.

.

38,675 4,229 15,241 970 14,025 32,093 9,822 19,939 748 583 54,451 6,151 24,051 1,122 14,799 50,072 23,422 23,148 1,570 829 CHILE 1961 .

.

.

.

1964 .

.

10,132 1,027 4,528 68 3,772 5,230 493 4,173 3 .

.

9,436 2,298 3,755 230 1,877 4,447 840 2,914 - 279 308 KUWAIT 1961 .

.

.

.

7,472 2,187 17 1964 .

.

.

.


8,954 3,765 94 147 7,665 2,781 832 1,373 12 53 7,295 7,892 1,257 1,415 73 1 1 IRAQ 1961 .

.

.

.

1964 .

.

.

.

21,339 9,305 1,470 131 8,987 9,040 850 5,997 76 10,886 4,317 2,452 96 6,057 9,715 485 3,543 279 VENEZUELA 1961 .

.

.

.

8,466 2,324 1,384 82 3,324 5,247 2,131 1,793 20 1964 14.624 2.090 4,537 45 5,765 7,496 3,727 2,259 41 � ::i.

� ;:: :i:.

i "' ;;; 75 156 78 249 ..... l'v Oo EXPORTS FROM THE UNlTED KINGDOM-cont.
CoMMODITY Market Non Electric Machinery Power- Agricultural Electrical Generating Machinery Working Machinery Apparatus Machinery and except Appliances Electric and Implements Machine Tools Metal- Transport Equipment Passenger Motor Cars except Buses Other Road Motor Vehicles Thousand U.S. dollars Fabrics Synthetic Organic Woven of D yestuffs ; Natural, Synthetic Indigo; Fibres Colour Lakes BRAZIL .. 1961 1964 .. .. ARGENTINA 1961 1964 NEW ZEALAND .. 1961 1964 .. 1961 .. 1964 .

.

FINLAND .

.
.. .. .. .. .. .. .. · I 14,230 I - 1 2 13 3,747 1,255 398 323 569 1,183 1,577 635 648 743 627 909 1964: January to September at annual rate.
Symbol: - nil.

-N IO ~ a ,.

;:, :i:... ;:, "' ~ "' ;;; ....

.

;:..

~ ~ -\D °' V, ~ ;.

;:, :i:... ;:, "' ~ "' ;;; -<.


;., c:::, EXPORTS FROM U.S.A. COMMODITY Thousand U.S. dollars Market Non Electric Machinery Power- Agricultural Metal- Electrical Generating Machinery Working Machinery Apparatus Machinery except a nd Electric Appliances and Implements Machine Tools I Passenger Transport Motor Cars Equipment except Buses Road Motor Synthetic Other Vehicles Synthetic Fabrics Organic Woven of Dyestuffs; Natural Indigo; Colour Lakes Fibres I CEYLON LIBYA 1961 1964 DENMARK .
.

.. .

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.. .

.

RHODESIA, ZAMBIA AND MALAWI 1961 .. 1964 .. NIGERIA .

.

1961 1964 .. .. .

.

.. 1961 1964 .. 1961 .. .

.

1964 .. 1961 1964 .

.

KUWAIT .

.

1961 1964 .. .. 1961 1964 .. .

.

.

.

VENEZUELA 1961 1964 .

.

.. .

.

.. .. .. .

.


.. .. .. CHJLE IRAQ 4,239 6,281 8,387 22,691 1,574 1,821 12,528 30,346 16,422 21 ,730 • 57 16 - - 48 .

.
.

140 - 647 629 1,187 1,096 30 50 - - 3,343 1,543 71 6 652 335 2,815 122 - 1,787 6,032 4,608 4,156 12,938 13,813 4 ,216 3,289 3,661 6,563 I I 46,329 47,661 877 691 2,357 9,300 563 227 3,388 2,285 4,596 5,035 51,029 16,890 12,140 10,449 10,100 7,069 64,367 80,951 516 263 900 512 16 - I 176 136 26 - 26 .. - - 434 695 108 24 - - - - - - - - 1 .
.

- - - - 103 - - - - - 2,061 1,892 481 520 EXPORTS FROM U.S.A.- cont.

COMMODITY ...... ~ Thousand U.S. dollars Market Non Electric Machinery Power- Agricultural E lectrical Generating Machinery Working Machinery Machinery except Electric and Implements and Appliances Machine Tools Metal- I Apparatus Equipment Passenger Transport Motor Cars except Buses Other R oad Motor Vehicles F abrics Woven of Synthetic Fi bres BRAZIL 1961 .

.

.

.

1964 ARGENTINA . '


1961 1964 NEW ZEALAND 1961 1964 FINLAND 1961 1964 .

.

.

.

. '

.. .

.

.. ' . '

.

. '
' ' .. .. - - - 888 766 1,519 265 356 ~ ~- " ;:, ;i.. ~ " "' ~ ~ -~ ~ -\0 0\ u, Synthetic Organic D yestuffs; Natural I ndigo ; Colom Lakes 510 441 513 460 35 95 - - 1964: January to September at annual rate.
Source : O.E.C.D.

Statistica l Bulletin, Series C. United Nations, Commodity Trade Statistics.

Symbol : .. not available.

- nil or n egligible.
~ " ;:, ;i.. a " "' ~ ..... c...., "" EXPORTS FROM GERMAN FEDERAL REPUBLIC COMMODITY Thousand U.S. dollars Market Non Electric Machinery Power- Agricultural Electrical Generating Machinery Working Machinery Machinery Apparatus except and Electric Appliances and Implements Machine Tools Metal- Passenger Tra nsport Motor Cars Equipment except Buses Road Motor Synthetic Other Vehicles Synthetic Fabrics Organic Woven of Dyestuffs; Natural Indigo; Colour Lakes Fibres RHODESIA, ZAMBIA AND MALAWI 1961 1964 NIGERIA 1961 1964 CEYLON 1961 1964 LIBYA 1961 1964 DENMARK 1961 1964 CHILE 1961 1964 KUWAIT 1961 1964 IRAQ 1961 1964 VENEZUELA 1961 1964 .
.

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.. .

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.

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.. .. .. .

.

.

.

.

.

.. .

.

.. .

.

I I 1,690 1,612 3,590 10,448 2,162 2,001 1,106 1,617 68,486 84,560 19,156 12,408 3,065 3,256 5,488 4,013 11,087 18,020 105 .. 303 800 789 168 181 296 6,412 7,583 1,668 1,425 912 713 613 631 1,416 827 .. .

.

.. .. .. .. .. .. 8,803 11,493 940 .. .. .. 143 219 283 .. 89 .

.

225 139 56 209 15 .

.


4,776 4,569 918 707 128 .

.

361 .

.

525 1,256 1,156 467 2,233 2 ,319 .

.

.. .

.

.. .

.
.

.. .

.

.. .

.

22,789 26,475 842 3,223 7,131 1,169 1,052 1,689 4,601 3,583 2,180 3,435 10 .

.

.

.

.

.

412 .. 19 .

.

.

.

.

.

395 561 .

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

1,662 2,051 1,240 1,515 .

.

.. 191 255 830 1,235 EXPORTS FROM GERMAN FEDERAL R.EPUBLIC-C0/1/.
Thousand U.S. dollars I COMMODITY Market Non Electric Machinery Power- Agricultural Electrical Generating Machinery Working Machinery Machinery except Electric and Implements and Appliances Machine Tools Metal- Transport Apparatus Equipment Passenger Motor Cars except Buses i I Other Road Motor Vehicles Synthetic Organic Fabrics Woven of Dyestuffs; Natural Synthetic Indigo; F ibres Colour Lakes -'"" ' l ~ :!· ~ ;::s ~ ~ "' ;::i BRAZIL 1961 1964 .

.

.

.

ARGENTINA .

.

1961 1964 NEW ZEALAND .

.


1961 .. 1964 FINLAND 1961 1964 .. .

.

.

.

.. .

.

.. .

.

.

.

.

.

.. 53,738 34,049 73,023' 26,463 5,054 7,232 64,094 49,115 6,276 3,643 8,591 4,648 .

.

.

.

8,451 4,268 823 393 6,032 147 468 639 9,866 3,497 12,190 6,468 15,028 4,196 395 584 3,058 3,136 I 14,546 6,016 15,705 8,073 1,240 817 29,506 32,804 I I 447 680 8,151 1,048 1,656 1,291 10,981 31,079 17,883 4,208 44,416 14,043 2,151 1,665 32,297 47,204 I .. .. 17 .

.
.

219 637 563 2,467 2,784 1,818 1,968 .

.

.. 1,470 2,153 16,183 3,528 35,816 12,995 495 375 17,978 12,176 I a;:: -~ ~ -\0 0\ u, 1964 January to September at annual rate.

Source O.E.C.D.

Statistical Bulletin, Series C and United Nations, Commodity Trade Statistics.

Symbol .

.

not available.
~ " ;::s ~ "' ;::i ~ .... ~ EXPORTS FROM SWITZERLAND COMMODITY I Market Non Electric Machinery Power- Agricultural Generating Machinery Machinery except Electric and Implements Metal- Electrical Working Machinery Apparatus Machine and Tools Appliances Passenger Transport Motor Cars Equipment except Buses Other Road Motor Vehicles Thousand U.S. dollars Fabrics Synthetic Organic Woven of Dyestuffs; Synthetic Fibres Natural Indigo; Colour Lakes ODESIA, ZAMBIA AND MALAWI N C L D IBYA EYLON 1961 1964 1961 1964 IGERIA 1961 1964 .
.

.. .

.

.

.

.. .

.

.. 1961 1964 .. ENMARK .. 1961 1964 .

.

LE .. 1961 1964 .. UWAIT .. 1961 1964 .. .

.

1961 1964 .. ENEZUELA .. 1961 .. 1964 Cm K I RAQ V .

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.

.

.. .. .

.

.. .

.

.

.

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.

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.

.

.

.

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.

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.

.

.. .. .

.

.

.

N S:: N .. .

.

305 2,036 479 236 .

.

.. 6,335 9,976 2,166 1,750 214 206 227 742 3,868 1,024 .

.

.

.

.

.

1,238 .

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

276 1,838 352 340 .

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

635 .

.

.

.

.. .

.

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.

.

.

.

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.. .

.

.

.

.


.

.. .

.

.. .. .. .

.

.

.

2 .. .. .. .. .. .. .. 660 726 9 422 .

.

.. .. 2 24 .. .

.

.

.

.

.

224 .

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

2,806 5,738 482 454 609 .

.

.

.

.

.

1,180 610 .

.

.. .

.

.. .. .. .. .

.

.

.

.. .. .. .. .. .

.

,.

.

.

.. -\0 0\ Vt I I .. .

.

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.

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.

.

.

.. .

.

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.

.. .

.

.

.

2 2 6 4 6 15 .

.

I I .. .

.

.. .. .. .. .. .. .

.

.

.

.

.

.. .. .

.

.

.

.. .. ..

I l I I 18 .. 6 .. .

.


.. .. .. 350 256 3 .

.

.

.

.

.

2 .

.

35 .. .

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

1,039 1,844 682 764 .

.

.

.

161 .

.

849 1,292 J EXPORTS FROM SWITZERLAND-CO/I!, COMMODITY Market Non Electric Machinery Power- Generating Machinery except Electric Electrical Metal- Agricultural Machinery Working Machinery Machine Tools and Implements and Appliances Transport Motor Cars Passenger Apparatus Equipment .

.

.

.

.

.
.

.

.

.

.

BRAZIL 1961 1964 ARGENTINA 1961 1964 NEW ZEALAND 1961 .

.

.

.

1964 FINLAND .

.

1961 .

.

1964 .

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.. .. 4,318 2,004 8,378 4,410 915 1,402 5,120 6,588 987 .

.

1,630 1,726 .

.

.. 1,099 438 .

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.. .

.

704 430 1,630 252 45 .

.

465 262 I 3,385 2,908 1,657 4,646 1,107 2,096 2,955 2,814 I .. .. .. .

.

.

.

.

.

694 Thousand U.S. dollars Fabrics Woven of Road Motor Synthetic Other Vehicles F ibres .

.

.

.

.

.

.
.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.. .. .

.

.

.

31 .. 25 .

.

260 .

.

Synthetic Organic Dyestuffs; Natural Indigo; Colour Lakes 2,145 1,874 2,676 1,812 291 424 899 1,494 ..... "" ' ..... ~ ... :::: ;.

;:,: ;i.. ;:,: "' ~ "' ;:: ~ -.i:,.

~ -\0 °' V, except Buses 14 .. 3 .. .. .. .. .

.

1964: January to June at annual rate.

Source: O.E.C.D.

Statistical Bulletin, Series C and United Nations Commodity Trade Statistics.

Symbol: .. not available.
~ ... ~ :i.. ;:,: ~ "' ;:: ..... "" "-> EXPORTS FROM CANADA COMMODITY Thousand U.S. dollars Market Non Electric Machinery Power- Agricultural Metal- Electrical Generating Machinery Working Machinery, Machinery except Electric and Implements Machine Tools and Appliances Passenger Transport Motor Cars Apparatus Equipment except Buses Road Motor Synthetic Other Vehicles* Fabrics Synthetic Organic Woven of Dyestuffs; Natural Indigo; Colour Lakes Fibres ZAMBIA .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. RHODESIA, AND MALAWI .
.

.

.

.. .

.

1961 1964 NIGERIA 1961 1964 LIBYA CHILE CEYLON .

.

1961 .

.

1964 1961 .

.

1964 .

.

DENMARK .

.

1961 .

.

1964 1961 .

.

1964 .

.

KUWAIT .

.

1961 .

.

1964 .

.

.

.

1961 1964 VENEZUELA 1961 1964 .

.

.

.

IRAQ .. .. .

.

.. w 303 - - 172 - - 102 232 428 453 2,114 5,943 - - 237 - 1,239 2,771 147 102 - - - - - - - - 140 900 - - - - 446 372 14 - - - - - - - - - 785 - - - - - - 660 - - - - - - - - - .

.
.

I 44 - - - - - - 252 - - - 176 163 399 - - - - - - - 565 - 1,187 2,365 809 1,557 465 - 464 - - - 293 184 - - 642 227 - - 1,374 5,120 I 588 .. 380 .

.

20 - - .

.

47 .

.

37 .

.

640 .

.

35 .. 1,306 .. 221 1,557 85 - 106 - - - 246 184 42 - 2 227 .

.

- 68 5,120 16 50 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 235 I - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - EXPORTS FROM CANADA-CO/If.
COMMODITY Market Non Electric Machinery Power- Agricultural Electrical Generating Machinery Working Machinery Machinery except Electric and Implements and Appliances Machine Tools Metal- Transport Apparatus Equipment Thousand U.S. dollars Passenger Motor Cars except Buses Other Road Motor Vehicles Fabrics Synthetic Organic Woven of Dyestuffs; Natural Synthetic Indigo; Fibres Colour Lakes -~ ~ lb' ;, ;i.. ;, "' ~ "' ;::i .. .. .. BRAZIL 1961 1964 ARGENTINA 1961 1964 NEW ZEALAND .

.

1961 .

.
.

1961 .

.

1964 FINLAND 1961 1964 .

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.. .. .. .. .. ..

I I 1,173 1,088 2,746 1,121 5,684 4,563 662 628 463 231 829 927 860 1,749 - 423 I - 351 255 - 666 693 - - 3 2 - - - - - ..

I 4,118 243 156 515 1,258 2,903 - - - 7,636 548 481 4,373 3,749 - - 5 .

.

ll .. 1,733 .

.

15 .

.

.

.

- 369 - 554 1,293 30 - I - - - - 67 135 - - - - - - - - - - * Includes Passenger Motor Cars in 1964.

1964 January to September at annual rate.

Source O.E.C.D.
Source O.E.C.D.

Statistical Bulletin, Series C United Nations, Commodity Trade Statistics.

Symbol ail or negligible.

.. not available - ~ -.I>, ~ -\0 0\ VI ~ ~ ;, ;i..

I ;::i .... & 147 Written Answers 14 MAY 1965 Written Answers 148 HOSPITAIS Orthopaedic Surgeon (Yarmouth) Mr.

Prior asked the Minister of Health whether he will take steps to aid the East Anglian Regional Hospital Board to find a suitable replacement for the orthopaedic consultant surgeon for the Yarmouth-Lowestoft area.
Mr. K. Robinson : I must leave this ,to is responsible for the Board, which mak,ing an appointment.

- Prestwich Mental Hospital (Adolescent Psychiatric Unit) Mr. Rose asked the Minister of Health what has been the effect of mining sub sidence on plans for an adolescent psychiatric unit at Prestwich Mental Hos pital.

revised Mr. K. Robinson: The plans originally prepared are being take account of the risk of subsidence.
This has caused some delay in the completion of plans but the regional hospital board's intention to provide a unit at Prestwich Hospital has not changed.

to LOCAL GOVERNMENT Public Lavatories (Survey) Dame Irene Ward asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he has studied the Report of the Advisory Council on Public Sani tation, a copy of which has been sent to him ; and what steps he has taken to co ordinate action to remedy the deficiencies disclosed.

Mr. MacColl: The hon.


Lady has sent my right hon.

Friend a Press statement by the Advisory Council on a scatter survey of public lavatories.

The Council have not submitted a report to him.

They did, however make representations to my right hon.

Friend and his right hon.


Friend the Minister of Transport about the need for public lavatories on main roads and it has recently been announced that the· Government are willing to share with the district and county councils con cerned the cost of a pilot scheme to provide lavatories on lengths of trunk road in four counties.

Vol.
712 HOUSING Service Men Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware of the hard ship suffered by Service men and their families who find themselves homeless on leaving the forces; and whether, since many local authorities insist on a period of up to five years' local residence before registration on the housing list, he will issue a circular local authorities to recommending them to agree a formula under which service families returning to civilian life can be accepted on a basis of housing need.
Mr. Mellish: I would refer the hon.

Member to my replies to the hon.

Mem ber for Chichester (Mr. Loveys) and other hon.

Members on 11th May.


PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE National Assistance (Hampshire) Sir J. Fletcher-Cooke asked the Minis ter of Pensions and National Insurance how many boys and girls between the ages of 15 and 18 years, not being de pendants, received National Assistance in Southampton and Hampshire, respec tively, during each of the last five periods of 12 months for which figures are available ; what were the total payments made in each of these periods ; and for what purposes such payments were made.
Mr. Pentland: I regret that this in formation is not available.

ROADS East Suffolk Mr.

Prior asked the Minister of Trans port what allocation has been made for minor road improvements in the East Suffolk Couility Council area for the year 1965-66 ; and how this compares with the previous year.

Mr. Tom Fraser: The classification grant for classified roads in East Suffolk for 1965-66 is £393,190, an increase of 8·8 per cent.

over the previous year.


The sum allocated for the maintenance and 2M4 149 Written Answers 14 MAY 1965 Wrillen Answers 150 minor improvement of trunk roads for 1965-66 is £104,119, a decrease of 17·8 per cent.

compared with the previous year.

Long Road, Lowestoft Mr.

Prior asked the Minister of Trans port whether he is aware of the dan gerous condition of Long Road, Lowe s,toft; and if he will now carry out im provements to it.
Mr. Tom Fraser: I am aware of the present traffic conditions in Long Road and was ready to make a grant towards the cost of a road widening.

But I have recently heard from East Suffolk County Council that they do not want the scheme to go forward for the time being.
Birkenhead Mr. Howe asked the Minister of Trans port (1) what estimate he has made of the number of public service vehicles currently using Fleetcroft Road, Arrowe Park, Birkenhead, between the hours of 7.30 and 9 a.m. and 5.30 and 6.30 p.m. daily; (2) when he expects the road works currently proceeding between the mouth of Poole Lane and ,the Arrowe Park roundabout in Arrowe Park Road, Bir kenhead, to be completed ; and whether he will take steps to secure the more expeditious completion of such works and so secure the opening of Arrowe Park Road for one-way working before the completion of such works ; (3) what assessment he has made of the traffic hazards created for households living near to Fleetcroft Road, Arrowe Park, Birkenhead, while traffic between Moreton and Birkenhead is diverted along the road ; whether he will take steps to secure the diversion of such traffic, alternatively of that part of such traffic which is proceeding towards Bir kenhead, along Poole Lane, Meadow Crescent and Church Lane ; and whether he will impose and publicise a lower speed limit and secure the appointment of additional school crossing attendants on Fleetcroft Road and on other roads along which Moreton-Birkenhead traffic is diverted throughout the duration of such diversions.
Mr. Tom Fras,er : I understand that the maximum number of buses using Fleet- croft Road during each of these periods is about twenty in each direction.

The progress of foe works in Arrowe Park Road is the responsibility of Birken head Corporation.

I understand that the diversion is expected to end in Octo ber, and that the works are expected to be substantially completed by November.
I also understand that the corporation, having carefully considered the possible alternatives, are satisfied that the exist ing temporary arrangements are the best School crossing that can be devised.

patrols are the responsibility of the Cor poration ; so, in the first instance, is the question of speed limits in Fleetcroft Road.
M.1 Mr. Longden asked the Minister of Transport whether, as most of the M.l is already a three-lane motorway, and as the southern extension to it, which is now under construction, is also to be three-lane, he will ensure the southern end of the existing M.l, which is about to be closed for major repairs, and which will link the new with the existing parts of the M.l, will be con verted into a three-lane motorway.

that Mr. Tom Fraser : I have no plans for widening this section of motorway.
It is used by substantially less traffic than the dual three-lane section further north.

Traffic on the southern extension under construction will also be considerably heavier since it will be augmented by flows from other routes approaching London.

Conversion of the dual two lane section into a dual three-lane motor way would be a major operation com pared with the relatively minor surfacing repairs being carried out at present.
NATIONAL FINANCE Seven Year Covenants Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the estimated saving to the Exchequer of the abolition of tax concessions on seven year covenants.
Mr. Diamond : On the assumption that this question relates to Surtax disallow ance of covenanted payments under Clause 12 of the Finance Bill, the esti mated saving is that given in the Finan cial Statement, namely, £1½ million in 151 Written Answers 14 MAY 1965 Written Answers 152 1966-67 and £2 million for the first full year, with increased savings later years.

in Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the average annual sum covered by a seven-year covenant.
Mr. Diamond: About for covenants in favour of charities and about £250 favour of for individuals.

covenants £20 in Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many seven year covenants are in opera tion ; and how many of these are in respect of registered charities and indi viduals, respectively.

Mr. Diamond: About I} million, of which about 160,000 are in favour of individuals and nearly all the rest in favour of charities.
Public Service Pensioners Mr. Paul Dean asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many public service pensioners there are in each of the pub lic services by year or code of retirement ; how many of them in each service are pensioners, widows, or dependants, re pectively ; and what is the annual cost of pensions for each category of each service.

Mr. MacDermot : The figures for the Civil Service, for which my right hon.

Friend is responsible, are given below.


They are derived from a sample taken at the end of September 1963.

More up to date figures are expected shortly, and 1 will write to the hon.

Member when I I have brought this ques have them.

tion to the attention of my right hon.

Friends who are responsible for the other public services, and they will no doubt write to the hon.

Member.

Year ending 30th Sept. Officers Widows and other Dependants Numbers Amount (£ millions) Numbers Amount (£ millions) .

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.

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.

.

.

.. .. .

.

.

.

.. .

.

.

.

.. .

.

.. .. .. 1963 1962 1961 1960 1959 1958 1957 1956 1955 1954 1953 1952 1951 1950 1949 1948 & earlier .

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.. .. .

.

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.

.

.. .

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.. .. .

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.. .

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.
.. 20,200 20,500 17,800 17,200 19,000 15,400 14,000 10,400 8,900 6,000 5,500 5,200 4,900 5,600 5,300 25,900 6·5 5·8 4·4 4·5 5 ·4 4·0 3·5 2·8 2·5 1 · 7 1·7 1 ·4 1 · 3 I ·5 1:4 7·5 2,300 2,400 2,700 3,300 4,300 2,800 3,400 3,200 2,900 1,800 1,200 2,100 2,100 1,900 600 3,900 O·l 0·2 0·2 0·2 0·3 0·3 0·3 0·3 0·3 0·2 0· 1 0·2 0·2 0·3 0· 1 0·6 Rootes Group (Chrysler Corporation Holding) Mr. Bmce-Gardyne asked the Chan cellor of the Exchequer what Treasury sanction has been given to an increase in the Chrysler Corporation's holding in the equity of the Rootes Group since 15th October, 1964.
Mr. Diamond : Consent has been given to the second and third phases of the transaction between Chrysler Corporation and Rootes Motors Ltd., which were accepted in principle when consent was given to the first phase in July 1964.

The second phase covered the acquisition by Rootes of Dodge Brothers (Britain) Ltd., by means of a share exchange, and the third a rights issue by Rootes.