Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698070031714.pdf (Guyana)
203 Member, Present LEotsi.A l'Iff doUNcJL.

Estimate,, 1938 204 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

The Hon.

Jung Bahadur Singh (Dem­ erara-Essequebo ).

'l.

'hursday, 11th November, 1987.

The Hon.

C. R. Jacob (North Western District).

The Council met at J 1 a.m., His Excel­ lency the Officer Administering Government, C.M.G., O.B.E., Mr. E. J. WADDINGTON, President, in the Chair.

the Berbice).

The Hon.

Peer Bacchus (Western The Hon.

s. H. Seymou r (Western 0 Essequebo).

The Hon.


J. W. Jackson (Nominated Unofficial Member).

The Hon.

T. Lee (ERsequebo The Hon.

H. G. Seaford, O.B.E., River).

Member).

(Nominated Unofficial PRESENT.

The Hon.

the Colonial Secretary, (Acting) (Major W. Bain Gray, C.B.E.).

The Hon.

the d.ttorney-General, (Mr.

The Hon.

W. S. Jones (Nominated J. H. B. Nibill, K.C., �LC.).

Unofficial Member).

The Hon.

F. Dias, O.B.E.

(Nominated 'l'he Hon.

E. M. Walcott (Nominated Unofficial Member}.


Unofficial Member), The Hon.

J. S. Dash, Director of Agri­ .

culture The Hon.

E. G. Woolford, ICC.

(New Amsterdam).

The minutes MINUTES.

of the meeting of the Coun­ cil held on the 10th November, were confirmed.

and circulated, as printltd The Hon.

E. F. McDa,id, M.B.E., Colonial Treasurer.

The Hon.

F. J. Seaford, O.B.E., (Georgetown North).

PAPERS LAID.

1'he following documents were laid on The Hon.

W. A.

D'Andrade, Comp• troller of Customs.


the table:- The Hon.

M. B. Laing, District Com• East Demerara.

mi11sioner, yeu.r 1936.

The Hon.

G. 0.

Case, Direclor of Public Works and Sea Defences.

Henort of the Director for the of Ednoe.tion Correspondence rela.

ing to the Coffee of the Colony (C.S.M.P, No.

14!)

.

tullustry (Colonial Secretary), The Hon.

B. N. V. Wase-Bailey, ORDER OF THE DAY.

Surgeon-General (Acting).

The Hon.

L. G. Ct·ease, (Acting).

Education Director of 1038.


The Council 1·esolved itself ESTIMA'I'ES, into Com­ The Hon.

H. P. Christiani, M.B.E., Commissioner of Lands and Mines.

The Hon.

Percy C. Wight, O.B.E.

mittee and resumed consideration Estimates of Expenditure from revenue December, for the yea1· ending a·lst to be defraved 1938. of the (Georgetown Central).

SELEC'r Co:M:MIT'I'EE ON COFFEE INDUSTRY, The Hon.

J. Eleazar (Berbice River).

'l'he Hon, J. Gommlv .

town Soutl1) The Hon.


H. C, Humphrys Demerara), �nE COLONIAL SECRETARY (Major to discuss Bam Grny): Before we proceed the Estimates subject respondence the view of Government pondence of the coffee industry.

I would like to refer to the cor­ Certain is that that should be refened to a 8elect co1Tes­ was laid on t,he table to-day, and 205 Committee of Supply 11 NOVEMBER, i937.

-Estimates, 1938 :.106 of this Council Committee and make recommendations.
motion:- move the following it to discuss I therefore an addiLional the Department, rema.i·ks of the hon.

member.

assistant has been adde<l to I certainly the endorse Item put, and agreed to.

to That a Select Committee be appointed �o the Coffee relating the proposals of the Colony which are contained in (C.S.

M. P. "N"o.

142) which has to advise coneider indnstry correspondence been laid on the Table, fin�ncial assistau::e ind us try and, if so, what form such a�sistance should take.
should be given to this whether any :Mr. DIAS seconded.

Motion put, and agreed to.

Tm CHAIRMAN: A Select will be appointed, personnel and I will anuollllce later.

of the Committee Committee the AUDIT DEPARTMENT.

Mr. JACOB: I would like to make a I fot· many but here we I thought and I was able to Committee to the Income for next year and report and that the repo1·t this head.

I under­ have been carried 30, and here we are this Government was lines, estimate!!

and recommendations.


of those recom­ out, 11.nd 1 few remarks llllder stood in Select I of the Auditor was not yet issued.

Lhink that is very undesirable reasons.

being run on business are considering we have not got the Auditor's hi;; comments for this on the expenditure year.

Last year I read the Auditor's report with very great inierest, m1ike comments am glad to see that several mendations hope with benefit to the rnvenues of the concerns have to sub­ Colony.
Business mit their n.udited acc0unts Tax btl:ice before Apt·il on November 11 without the Auditor's report on the accounts last year.

It is very lllldesil'able, is another reason why the Estimates should not be proceeded Government itself should have the opportunity ing-that that things a.re in orde1·.

Auditor in following It is very regrettable not available, be published starts.
and I am right in some departments, urging on Government that the strnngly Audito1·'s report should be la.id on the table to dispel doubts in our minds.

I have serious because very many officers believe can do what they like.
They do not and realise that their accounts that his report is imd I hope in future it will long before the annual se�sion as one of the persons the accounts that they are public se1·vants I look upon th� to help me I know that things are not "Oing seeina is our maiu function-and doubts on very many things, must be scrutinized.

of Government.

is not ready.


"\Ve of scrutiniz­ with, because of Lhe Colony for and that they Mr. LEE: I suggest that Government the question of having a member consider of the staff of the Auuit Department In my stationary at New Amsterdaw.

on sub• op1mon it would 110.ve expeuditure sii:1tence In addition I euggest that should audit all village and other allowances.

uccounts 11ud those the Audit Department ANALYST, Hem !l-Allowanoe to officers for analy­ sis of milk on Sundays and llolidays­ $350.
monLhly salaries a. lot of talk would respond should receive and get equal with I do not think it is There is certainly I do not know that officers 0 month 1oughly for them to work every Sunday Mr. ELEAZAR: I am of the opinion that $300 is quite enough to remunerate these gentlemen.

necessary in the year in order to be able to analyse milk samples.

receivin" $25 per samples.

about bad milk, but this is not the way to slop it.
If the Police and the l\Iagis­ t.rates thuwe people this expenditure would not If a man who adds water to be necessary.

his milk wa!!

given a couple of mouths in .,aol there would be no neerl to spend so �uch money.

This extra money pa.id for the u.nalysis taxpayer.

and when they have must get exLra.

be peremptory milk adulteration, offence.

Now there is a sort of hicle-m1d­ and the Police.


seek between it the I consider I hate flogging, method known, but some most barbarous stringent punishment are dying to those offenders.

slowly from starvation of the on account adult�rn led milk they drink.

I move that the item be reduced to imprisonment in at least for the second should be meted out Children of milk is unfair These officers are paid salaries, pay.

I think there should to the general the offenders to do extra.
because work they cases of $300.

1\1 t·.

LEE : I have all'eady expressed my and seeing that ,·ic,1111 in Select Committee, for analysing milk 207 Uomrnittee of Sttpply LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-E11tirnates, 1988 208 of other departments ment has some control.

public would be more satisfied audits were carried Depa.rtment.

over which Govem­ I think the if such out by the Audit Tue COLONIAL SECRETARY: I of the item which has to the htad move the deletion ah-eady been transferred Legislature.
1·aised I can assure the Council THE COLONIAL SECRETARY : With by the regard to the main question hon.

member for North Western District (Mr. Jacob), the Auditor's report It was actually ing printed.

when the Select Committee and will be laid before the Council at the very first opportunity.

is in process of be­ being printed was sitting, that COLONIAL SECRETARY'S OFJ'ICE.
1·epresenta­ that of Crown Colony Gov­ somebody and then puts it into execu­ Mr. ELEAZAR: I must confess after all the years I have been here I am yet to find out the ways of Government.

Somebody makes a suggestion, else find its a wise suggestion Government forthwith tion and comes to the people's tives to provide the money.

This item (a)is the esRence ernment.

We pay taxes, Government spends the money and we have not a word to say about it.

This is a clear example of that.


Some little in this some unrest among the labourers Colony-nothing only a few ance, because it concel'lled individuals there was anything was because result was that a Commission for, and I think its decision to do with this proposed a Commissiocer Secretary Colonial here anc.l there, and wherever beyond the ordinary appointment of Labour and Assistant it some people made it so.

The of very great import­ for Local Affairs.


time ago there was has very much was asked of Motion for the deletion of the item put, and agreed to.

COLONIAL SECRETART's OFFICE-LABOUR, LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND IMMIGRATION, Item (a)-Commissioner Secreta1·y Colonial of Labour and for Local Assistant Affairs, $4,320.

is One can Colonial that exists and get a deci­ defendants of a.

Commissioner Mr. ELEAZAR: When those who asked got what they of SecretM·y the enquiry to appea: to-clay.
of the necessity whe1·e the1·e will exploit where it can.

In every country for the Labour Commission wanted they thought they did not want it at all, and they deserted the virtual allowing in the role of complainants sion in their favour.

That decision fo1· this head being re�ponsible largely fouud on the Estimates hardly conceive for the appointment Labou1· and Assistant for Local Affairs in a country Capital al'e all free labourers.
labou1· where there is free labour Government steps in and prevents exploiting under contract, by legislation, Government a Bill to fix a minimum wage for Council lab?ur and the hours of work, conditions which have been asked for by those who are most concerned but, I must confess way.

A patemai not in a constitutional should not, however wait Government until labournrs come and ask for' those things.

If Government duty in that way we would not have bee n asked to vote nearly $16,000, a.

Bill instead.
Bill instead.

would have put a Bill through in a jiffy, because these are not the days when we have to wait for years to get a Bill thl'O ugh.

by fixing a minimum waae and the hours of labou�·.

has not introduced had been doinrr its his servant, an employer even though he is in this from but to pass The Attorney-Genera.I THE CHAIRMAN : I think the hon.

member should wait until we reach that item.

Mr. ELEAZAR: I am sorry, sir, I am two pages ahead.

{laughter).

THE CHAIRMAN: In view of Lhal the hon.


member will not repeat what he has said.

(laughter).

M1·.

ELEAZAR : I will continue where I stopped.

(laughter).

Item (o)-Duty allowance to officer per­ forming tive Council, $240.

the duties of Clerk ef the Legisla­ We had and still have a skeleton of the Why couldn't Depa1·truent.

Immigration that Depart11;1ent be charged with doing nature and somebody wo1·k_ of this .

o.ppomted who ts capable of doina this and Gtvern­ work?
I know a gentleman, I have ment ought to know its servants.

but I will not no.me named him before, him to-day.

Make one Colony Commis- 209 Committee of Supply 11 NOVEMBER, l 937, -Estimates, 1938 210 and be able supeenise the on lo.bou1· has decided to judge between with a Oommissioner Service-should Commissioners and let Govern­ But to create a sepa­ a. man who would be able t.o pull and let him keep in touch with communities eioner, his ,veight, the village ment know what is transpiring.
Goveroment .ra.te department La.hour the estates and their employers ters in which he will be told that the labourers are under contract.

No man ha� the right, contr11.cl, make anothe1· work single day's pay, nod unless there is legis­ lation limiting the hours of labour that will continue, and of what use will this Commissioner of Labour be?

Government other District to advise Government We are getting ments which grow and become very expen­ sive in the end.
They gl'ow out of proportion to the com­ munity, paying such heavy taxation.

much disappointed Government another department nomer.

The Select Committee have passed this proposal without because plausible them.
to their usefulness and that is the reason why we are I am very of in trying to foist upon us and give it a mis­ Reems to challenge of on on mat­ or no contract, to too many pelty depart­ over this attitude the labourers 16 hours a day for o. something matters, was put to That waa to sa.y that there of the worst kind.

Even those who were had to Jive on a mere pittllnce­ TH& COLONIAL SECRETARY: The untruth in wages.
I should say River (Mr. start of two some It is a palpable was no reduction it was preval'ica.tion It is true that the day's wage was not ve1·y much 1·educed, but a man could only get three days' work in a week, which made a good deal of difference.

the trouble.

employed less thau half of what they ea.med before.
All the remedy Government could find after an elaborate for which the exploiters is the appoint­ ment of a Labour Commissioner with an elaborate there are no labour unions with whom the Labour Commissioner He will have to go to the managers of the estates and ask how the labourers are get­ ting on.

Jt is stated in the explanatory memorandum on the Estimates hon.

member for Be1·bice Eleazar) took such a flying pages that he managed to ,�nticipate of the things I was going to say.
I a.m sorry he did not- help mittee, because matter were very well th1·eshed haps I may dispose and that is the title of the officer who is to be in charge of the department.

It was criticised and perhaps on the ground of being rather elsewhere, cumbersome, easy name to say at one time, and Govern­ ment proposes sioner of Labour and Local Govemment, which we think expresses in the shortest terms the functions the genernl aspects out.

Per­ staff.
Per­ staff.

In the country districts to shorten it to Commis­ paid h11ndsomely, of one mino1· point, will be able to deal.

It is certainly in Committee, of this officer.

enquiry, not a very us in Select Com­ of the On the general question whether this :- " l'his officer will organise and supervise a te and ta.ke over such functions inspectors Immigration necessary Cba.pter labour of the existinjl!
still statutorily tion Ordinance, time will a.Hist the Colonial in his cava::ity of Chairman ment Board, by dealing questions ari,ing country districts a� a.re Department under tbe Imm1gra.

�8, and a.t the anme es�ecially Secretary of tbe Loca.1 Govern.

�vith �he b_nlk of the in connection admiuistra.tioo."

with village and An Inspectot· of Labour-what does that mean?

What is he going to inspect-­ what Government has not got?
Somebody that we shoul� have in his wisdom suggested a Commissioner of Labour.

Where 1s the need for one to-day, ment Boa.rd decentralised in different tainly for this special department.

of doing this wor�-and -who is capable there is more than one such officer m the with the Local Govern­ and its officers parts of the Colony ?

I cer­ cannot agree The officer that there is nece111ity in classes I do not think in the progress of this nature I think all and wel­ division division of opinion.
of opinion and from such discus­ Govemmeot and this Colony need a, Labour Commissioner there is any serious There was very little Select Committee, sions as I have heard outside those interested fare of the working some department tial.

It is an anacluonism conditions a department There is at no point in the present isation of Government of officers whose particulal' concern it is to deal with labour questions as they arise.
Those of us who have lived some time in the of labour questions the working true, but true only up to a very definite to think as refening only to of the sugar estates.

It is of this particular kind.

organ­ any officer or group al'e agreed that is essen­ under modern to be without Colony are inclined for Government 21 l Committee of Supply LBGIBLATIVE COUNCIL, -Estimates, 1988 212 point.
Modern conditions of labour have gone beyond tha.t, and we now have in our community people working in other occupations who require ance of Government and under other conditiona the help, alisistance, and guid­ and of its officers.

efficiently difficult from one year to another, and if we all think it is essential conducted essential that there should be a strong connecting link between the loca,l Government, we hope to provide it.
and it is through this officer e,nd the central that they be it is equally For many yea.rs there have been a con­ For some years the Colonial Secretary problem of and I under present the duties of Chair­ does not arise, which fair to ask the Colonial to by the Colonial conditions, that has been discharging man of the Local Government Board, and bolder of the as I am only the temporary office I can say it is a burden which it is not really Secre­ tary to cany.
There are very few days which pass that some difficult local government has to be attended Secretary would urge members who are anxious of the Colony should be the Government as we conducted all desire, this much-needed office1· who has specialised ment.

That is, of course, matter of administration, root of the well-being classes conditions stood by Government; be someone responsible and advising Government comes for action to be taken.
in local govern­ not a mere but goes to the of the working the labour as efficiently to give the Colonial them when the time of the Colony-that should be thorougWy help in the shape of an that there should as possible, for studying under­ Secretary which are very we feel sure that that everyone in the Colony is that we of Europe, and which was raised in Select Com­ as to and advise Government as a soun4il organisation.
here, but even under our conditions in the modern w.orld, should be to the daily life of this Colony.
number of Labour Conventions of discussion siderable which have been the subject among the nations must be given effect to in the Colonies of the Empire if the British Empire i11 to I am continue of these not suggesting should modern pieces of labour legislation be transported more liberal the best opinion must have someone who will study labour conditions how far those changes, important transferred The question mittee, and has heert ra.ised again in this as to how far this new depart­ Council, ment should be a separate department Government.
both sides.

At the present moment opinion of Government associated with the central It will be a distinct tariat, Secretary, the Governor for the administrative of the Colony's closest possible officer, and the intention work directly cipal adviser that arise from day to day.
is that it is best the maiu organisation under him and be his prin­ on those important 'l'here are arguments on the but it is essential who is directly iihould be in the touch with this new that the Colonial responsible the Secretariat.
branch of the Secre­ Government, is that he should to side problems affairs, of of There is one mistake which seems to me made in considering there out unless is very la1·gely which is not called It has been suggested this that there work for this officer to do except to be frequently question.

is little when labour unrest has begun or is about to begin ; that he will be a kind of fire brigade is a labour conflagration.
It His function is more that of a health department than of a fire brigade and, like the health in a department, diffi­ way when some economic spectacular culty or epidemic His chief comes along.

funcHon is to forward the economic well­ being of the Colony.

He is, in fact, the economic health and for the Colony as a whole.

(applause).

This is a fallacy.

preventive.

officer for the Government is not merely busy M1·.


ELEAZAR: The acting Colonial has made a very able defence and the officer to be for Secretary this department appoint,ed.

the Colonial I quite agree with him that should not be Chair- Secretary The hon.

member for Berbice River tu the Immigration and the possibiiity of expand­ extent that is what of are being taken into the functions because the new officer the statutory Agent General.

The hon.

duties of the referred (Mr. Eleazar) Department ing it.
'Io a certain is being done.

The present the Department new department, will discharge Immigration member also referred local government.

this Council problems at one point or another, how difficult of local government has had some dealing 1 think everyone in with the and we all know they are.

They become more in this Colony to the problems of 213 Committee of Supply11 N OVEMBF.R1 1937.

--Estimates, 1938 214 will be proposes Secretary is absolutely on which to decide communities.
but no provision an officer who is going This is an experiment, He would have been looking Board, but has been told that ovet· and We are spending that is unproductive.

man of the Local Government Government ove1· again.

More often than not he gets information sixth-rate and that has led to e. good deal questions, of unrest in those village To take this away from the Colonial correct policy.

Secretary Again, to appoint to be e. sort of second Colonie.I and should have been done is a necessity, long ago.
If that aad been done we would in his of Education have had the Director place now, and he would not have been upon so often to fill the office which called be now fills with such great satisfaction and ability.

after his own department lot of looking cannot h1mdle so successfully.

that a part Adminie­ that he ought of the Colonial and we about it.

We Government Board and District but I will concede t1·ation, to be under the supervision Secretary.
should go verJ cautiously should not spend as much as $8,561 right away, and even if we spend that amount of money next yea1· we all know what will be money on the l'esult.

The something fo1· this and officer will find there is need w1ide to fill tl111L, those needs.

We ought to start with one to officer alone.

If Go,;ernment Administration ser­ the District eliminate chief of the vice, or to make this oflice1· Commissioners, District scheme is going to collapse.
The last Governor Fund should be devoted of the Colonization of the Colony in cer­ to the development and in that respect the tain directions, will be use­ Assistant ful.

But if the Labour Comruissione1 is to do all that, it means that he will be given work which he will not be able to do.

\Vhen this breaks down, like the others, some of the people who are putting additional not be here for me to say " I told you so."

(laughter).
(laughter).

Colonial Colonial which should not be thrown on him, I do not think this new department the case.

the duties nial Secreta1·y of Chairman of the Local Government Board, but I think that could be done by the Distl'ict who ought to be more familiar I administration therefore Commissioner, Chairman thereby those duties, appointed ing into labour affairs.

I should like to that it would not be well to state definitely officer doing all the duties have this Secretary.
by the Colonial enumerated and would would not create confidence, for which he is not serve the purpose intended.

If an officer as Assistant is needed tu relieve of some of the burdens be Board, of the Local Govemment of of the seveml districts.
that the chief District in Georgetown, this \\ill burden on the community the Colonial and that this new officer be Secretary Secretary I know it is very difficult merely for the purpose and which his deputy Commissioner fo1· Georgetown, with the to discharge theu the whole relieving Secretary Secretary resident Colonial which wants e. for the Colo­ decided suggest will meet after, of look­ the It Mr. JACOB: I have listened with very for but to have a case.
I am in­ will not meet the to what the Colonie.I has said, and while I have been to e. point I do feel that the of this officer, at least for the g1·eat attention SeCl'etary convinced functions present, clined to agree that there is necessity a Commissioner of Labour, CommiRsionm· together of Le.hour and a Secretarv Administration whole case.
the past between if it is the intention that the appointment of Labour will obviate think Government in whom both capital implicit confidence, be divo1·ced should not be mixed up with the Local with an Inspecto1· to the District will, I ·believe, spoil the There have been disputes in and labour, and of this Government of a Commissione1· in future I disputes an otl:icer should appoint and labour will have from all other duties.
He capitiLl anti that officer should Government of the As regards the appointment has had certain sug­ I know there are several but I am not prepared to say at the moment.

I know it is to make of Government but we are all interested in of the and development officer, gestions.

suggestions, anything within the province appointments, the progress Colony, and anxious 1·elations is therefore have the implicit that the officer should of both sides.

and labour.
and labour.

It confidence essential between capital to see harmonious and I think there is some con­ Mr. H. G. SEAFORD : In Select Com­ of Labour-was mittee item (b )-Inspector questioned, fusion in the minds of members as to what transpired Secretary, haps a statement might enlighten Administration.

by the Colonial Secretary us on the subject.

items (b) 11nd (c)­ Per­ as between District 215 Committee of Supply LBotsLATtVE CoiniCIL.
E,tirnates, 1938 216 Item (b)-Im,pector of Labour ($2,400 by $120 te $3,120), $2,400.

THE COLONIAL SECRETARY: As of that the view of Govern­ s11,id, there were certain raised in Select Committee the need for a Commissioner items (b) and (c), and the possible between them.

I informed the hon.

member questions regarding Labour, relationship the Committee ment was that when this new dep11,rtment down the need for continuing settled Distt"ict post of Secretary, I could not sa.y it would would disappea1·.
contem­ be done at once, but Government plated that when the department was in full working would not be required.

order a Secretary !\fr.

LEE : After listening to the of the hon.

member for George­ I would the fact that an of Labour is a new post and will If he in remarks town North (Mr. F. J. Seaford) like him to consider Inspector the be on the Fixed Establishment.
Administration, put no obstacles desires that we should I move that this the way of Government and given a item be put below the line trial.

If it is uot successful the officer would go.

I t11,ke it that as it is a new the Govern­ post someone from outside If it is ment service will be appointed.

to appoint the intention of Government who is already otlicer in the Civil Service I would have on the Fixed Establishment no objection.
that questions Commons about this matter, was given that it was being attended the severnl Colonies.

I rea<l in the newspapers were asked in the House of and the reply was very in­ to in an all that the hearing are suffering be appointed that the position him.

I feel that every mem­ I felt sure he to Mr. F. J. SEA.FORD : I should like to congratulate on his Secretary the Colonial very able and lucid speech.

I am sure of the Council every membe1· the points made and appreciated terested by him.
When the hon.

member for began his Berbice River (Mr. Eleazar) up a very speech I thought he was putting able plea for the appointment of this officer, because afte1· poor labourers was asking that someone look after their wants, and I w11,s going to congratulate ber of this Council agrnes which used to be held by the Immigration Agent General should exist to-da.y, but that it should not only exist for East Indians but for all labourers the Colony.

I think the hon.
I think the hon.

member said that we were always starting some­ thing new, but surely new.

It is something in 11,ll parts of the wol'ld, in their footsteps following have seen what good results obtained, I desire ment on having decided department.

but good here.
but good here.

Although some of us may hold the view that two officers a.re too many, I am not going to vote against any at the moment, because I do not want Government if anything sufficient should have full play in the matter, we are not satisfied be able to say that Government full support fo1· the items as they stand.
this is not something that has been done and we are only because have been to congratulate Govern­ this to establish to come back at a later stage, goes wrong, and say it had not I am sure it can do nothing after a year we would that Government of the Council.

throughout staff.

I desire I will vote bad the and if we Item put, and agreed to.

Dr. SINGH: As far as I can remember, most of the members against the appointment of Lahour.
When the District scheme was introduced Commission­ in Select Committee present were against this item.

I a.m totally of an Inspector Administration was known that the District ers would undertake grntion have Oistl'ict ant Commissioners, of an Inspector carried and their assistants.
Commissioners out by the District and I think the work of Labour could be easily Agent, aud to-day we not only the duties of Immi­ but Assist­ it Commissioners Mr. DL\.S: I happened to be present on the occasion and the dia­ at lasted there were I believe, a couple of days, appointment the Select Committee wbeu this item was discussed, cussiou, or part of two clays.

I would like to say with that while some members disagreed this pat·ticular others who a.greed with it.
I for one should be made, thought the appointment The hon.

member and I gave reasons.

that who has just taken his seat explained he had no objection, ment was made below the line.

In view of the experience that one has gained, many .

a concern has been wrecked by reason of take charge when the Lead goes, I think it will pay the Colony to employ an Inspect­ or of La.hour who, I presu1ut', there being uo understudy the appoint­ provided will be the to 217 Committee of Supply 11 Novl!lllBBR, 1937.
-Estimates, 1938 218 Just what would happen if there was of the Commissioner.

understudy picture not a second officer, and the Commis­ sioner was unable to carry on hi!J duties.

Government would have to take somebody who was entirely take some time befo1·e to the otlice.

That should not be allowed to take place, very grave mistake sioner a.lone.
and I think it would be a to appoint green and who would he could be of use a Commis­ as much as possible-although It was mentioned in Select Committee of La.bout· should Commis­ to do with the Di!1tl'ict If members desire to that the Commissioner not have anything Commissioners.

keep him a.way from the District I sioners cannot see how he can do without confer­ ring with them frequently-such inter­ views can be reduced to a minimum by giving him an assistant.
we ca.o get a. proper man or the best results by appointing without any pro�pect the Commissioner I think the Council to support a.send-off of promotion disappeai·ed would be well u.clvised the measure and give it as good can.

as it possibly an Inspecto1· below the line, unless altogether.

I do not think Administration.

in I to the District tho members that someone of having a. second Members of this Council or at least most of them, by suggesting Secretary '!
'hat, to my mind, satisfied of the Committee, as regards the necessity man, and I think if an officer is to be of Labour at the Inspector appointed salary suggested, there is need for that officer to be placed on the Fixed Estab­ lishment.
should not cut the ground from under their feet who is not already might be appointed the Government service, cannot see the necessity of the Service According be a slap to the country not be found in the Government fill the post, and regarding that the post should be placed below the line, it might be founrl that the officer selected ment.

I submit that there is need for an Inspector support the Fixed Establishmcut.
member for Western Berbice I cannot conceive Bacchus) being placed ubove the District sione1·s, whose salaries status would not w1u·1·11.nt Like the hon.

f (Mr.

Peer of that officer Commis­ for an Inspector to my way of thinking Personally of going outside of Labour.

it would if someone could service the suggestion of Labour, and I am going to on the Fixed Est!t.blish­ to place the post on the proposal are above his; his is already it, to and I the 1imendmen1i I would, however, of the hon.
mem­ River (Mr. Lee) that Mr.

PEER BACCHUS : I wa11 present at the meeting of the SPlcct Committee when this matter was discussed, think the suggestion was made that this item should be deleted.

support bet· for Essequebo the post be put below the line as a com­ promise between Government.
worth considering, Secretary be in close touch with the District Com­ salary is m1ss1oners, The Inspector's below that of the senior Distl'ict Commis­ and I do not think he will at missioner, any time be placed above the sioners because has said that these officers will I think the suggestion the Colonial members and is the elected Mi·, SEYMOUR : There is a certain This is an of Lo.bout· to do.

I Com­ of Dilltdct and I can well see that there and antipalhy and the District amount of gde-cra.shing.
yet we are to have an army experiment, and other officers, but no of colonels I do not think it is fof1·a dig privates.

for the Commissioner to in­ his job.

I spect labour; it is essentially do not anticipate that there will be !L lot of work for the Commissioner opposed the appointment missioners, is going to be jealousy tween the Inspector It i• going to be a ques­ Commis11ioners, tion of who is going to be top-dog.

all means have the Commi�sione1· Labour.


It is essential, is not organi11ed no neces�ity Laboul', only with Govemment ual!, is tbu.t we bite off more than we can chew.

I do not anticipate luuour truuhle and I re111emlier "it!, it w:ts 11,.ve Ll.e Cuwwi�bioner.

much but even iu this couut1·y, :L Cnn11ui,sin11rr we iuav of La.bou·r trnul le; they muy uot agree with ; if it were there would be of for a Commhsioner oot in this country, but pl'i\'8.te individ­ I thiuk Governwent I ugree.
Labour The tt·oul>le By of Commis­ be­ Mr. JACKSON: There is, in my opinion, to place this no merit in the !Suggestion officer below the line.

During the discus­ sion in Select it was suggeRted Committee that there was no need for an Inspectot· Labour wot·king of Labour, Commissioner that in the course of the disc.

:u�sion that ultimately menliout>d to dispense neceesary it 111i,.

:;ht IH c me wiLh th• utt:c of of wi.th the in collaboralion ia the various dit1frict11.
219 Committee of Supply LEGISLATIVE 1998 220 dommtt.

-Estimates, should go slowly and try out this experi­ ment.

Mr. JACOB: I move the deletion of the item .

TnE CHAIRMAN : Your motion is a negative; the you can vote against direct item.

Mr. F. J. SEAFORD : I do not know is to this post, but I and if an officer he cannot be put below the line.
is brought the Service who will be appointed cannot imagine Oovernment appointing anyone outside the Service, who is on the Fixed Establishment appointed If someone outside in I am inclined member for Essequebo that the appointment sionable.

Essequebo Government Government vehicle to agree with the hon.

River (Mr. Lee) (Mr. Seymour) to go slowly.

pleaded with However slowly which will go on one wheel.

goes I do not know of any The hon.

member should not be pen­ for \Vestem will be from the Set·vice.
the post could be taken until the mat­ THE CHAlRMAN : With regard to the raised about placing question below the line, it is not possible at the present the otlicer to time to say whether be appointed No decision by the ter was considered Council, it will be.

but in all probability I can see no reason why it should not be e.n officer in the Service, and if it is an officer in the Service who is on the pensionable e.t the present and approved it will be an officer time.

establishment Mt·.
establishment Mt·.

ELEAZAR: This is only a red­ 1wt·oss herring ber has only given Governmeut to rnise a side issue.

the trail.

The hon.

mem­ a chance The Committee adjoumetl until 2 p.m. fot· the luncheon recess.

2p.m.- Mr. ELEAZAR (resuming) : When the I had much more to adjourned Committee say, but during the interval I have been going over the ground again, and in Yiew of the remark made by the hon.
tuembe1· fo1· Georgetown I agree "ith him that we should lake care not to allow Govemmeut to come lmck and say that it has failed we did not p1·ovide North (Mr. F. J. Seaford) all it wanted.

Knowing that because Administrntion.

Secretary to the appointment of LiLbour, but after to say that will fail in this scheme I Government have made up my mind not to give Gov­ we ernment any opportunity made it fail.
To be very candid, I was very stroBgly opposed of a Commissioner the matter was explained an officer was necessary.

that mystified see why we must have an [nspector Labour, to have him I will not deny Government the only means of making this new depart­ ment a success, I will remain on that item.

neutral The only thing me was the name.

I cannot but if Government I thought such therefore is determined of Committee-that to Committee I for an of Labour or the from the Colonial of Labour.
As a matter of fact Mr. WIGHT: I am under the impres­ we decided the Inspector to the District sion that in Select eliminate Secretary I gathered that that is not going to be the case.

I going to adhere to the view am therefore I expressed in Select do not think there is any necessity Inspector I think a trial for 12 months would not do much harm, but the difficulty is that hav­ ing employed not be able to get rid of him.
I suggest that we defer the appointment of the Inspector of the Government next in office usually place.

For instance, Eduction nial Secretary, better than tion some time ago.

On a similar Government Solicitor.

the post of Colo­ and has done .so very much the officer who filled that posi­ officer's of the officer Government brought rn the Crown the Director fills the senior is now filling is that the service would occasion for 12 months.

My impression l\Ir.
My impression l\Ir.

PEER BACCHUS : I quite appre­ will not said before and I hope that in mak­ Govemment ciate what Y out· Excellency the adjournment, ing the appointment the Service.

go outside going to draw from the Service to make this appointment, necessat·y because officers can be trans­ ferred to any office at any time.

I hope Government and second an officer from the Service least for 12 months.
If Government is it is un­ will re-consider Government the matter at Mr. F. J. SEAFORD : If ttn office1· is to do thits work will he come seconded under this head ?

TBE CHAIRMAN: If nh officer is 221 Committee of .

'Supply 11 NOVl!MBER, 1937.

-Estimates, 1938 222 seconded will be paid from this vote.

tempora1·ily to do this work he THE CHAIRMAN: The hon.

member can speak on general amendments suggest but he must not go into unnecessary details.
Customs policy and of the Customs laws, The Committee divided, and there voted:- For-Messrs. Jones, H. G. Seaford, F. J. Seaford, Jackson, Christiani, Crease, D'Andrade, Dr. ,vasc-Bttilcy, Professor the Colonial Attorney-Gener�!, -14.. McDavicl, Dash, the Laing, Dias, Secretary Against-Dr. Singh, Messrs. Lee, Jacob, Peer Bacchus, Eleazar and Wight-6.

)Ir.
)Ir.

LEE: I was going into details to of an amend­ last year show tlrnt the introduction ment of the Customs Ordinance to givo preference fectionery an imposition Government not be in the interest remove that imposition.

to the makers of con­ and and to ask in this Colony on the public, of the public to was a fallacy to consider whethe1· it would Item as printed, agreed to.

Item (c)-Secretary, District Adminis­ tration, $2,880.

T1rn CHAIRMAN: 'l'he hon.


member tabled que1:1tions has already will be given him in due course.

and replies Mr. ELEAZAR: Do I understand that the person who is now SPcretary of the Local Govemment Board will be trans­ ferred from that Department?

$4,800.

Item (k)-10 Customs ,vatchers, to discha1·ge to the Local Govern­ Tm COLONIAL SECRETARY : This the officer will continue duties of 8ecretary ment Board.

When the new department settles ticular The secretarial ernment Board will clerical provided.
down it is probable post will be no longer required.

duties of the Local Gov­ be performed staff of the Department by the as now that this par­ Item put, and agreed to.

Mr. ELEAZAR requested that his pro­ test be recorded.

Cus•roMs.

:Mr. LEE: I have not yet received I tabled with to the questions I am a lover of sweets, replie� regard to the tax on imported confec­ tionery.

are the children.

shown to me, the new tariff will create a on the children.

lrn.rdship tlmt 600 lbs.


of imported $64.28- and so to figures According M r. DIAS: I <lo not like to interrupt the hon.

member, but I do ask whether we sweets or the staff of the are discussing Customs Department.?

must be some opportunity 1ime to discuss the present the staff of the Department.

I am su1·e there at some other at length.


At time we are votiug salaries fo1· that subject THE COLONIAL SECRETARY: The The matter has been in­ was asked in Select Committee que�tion whether Lhe number of Customs Watchers was sufficient.

vestigated that the item should be amended to read "Customs Watchers-12 move that tn $488-$5,376."

the item be amended accordingly.

and it is now recommended I therefore at $288 by $24 Item as amended put, and a.greed to.
: I beg 'l'nE COLON(AL SECRETARY of Customs as of a new item 11- of Comptroller to Customs Conference to move the insertion " Expenses in Jamaica, delegate on ques­ conference $800."

An important in the \Vest Indies tions of Custorus will be held in Jamaica early next year, and it that the Comptroller of Cus­ is proposed toms should represent this Colony.
Mr. LEE: Is this Government invited this Government and will the Comptrol­ to this confernnce, ler of Customs represent with respect I understand throughout sweets value to t ere to 1scuss.

h he1·e with respect ture.

What is the use of the Comptroller going to Jamaica?

I would like some ex­ planation to a uniform Customs tariff I would like hi going We have our problems to revenue and expendi­ ,�hat the Comptroller of this -expenditure.
the West Indies: know d 'l'nE CHAIRMAN: It is the continua­ tion of a conference troller of Customs represented thi■ at which the Comp­ 223 Committee of S1tpply LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, -Estimates, 1938 224 draft legislation three years ago when was drawn up.

Colony in .Bermuda certain This conference the final draft of that legislation, and draft reguh.tions model to work on after that legislation been enacted.

is being held to consider which have been framed as a has Item put, and agreed to.
DISTRICT ADMINISTRATION, Mr. ELEAZAR : When this Depart­ was asked complained, like many another ment was inaugurated, one, the modest sum of $12,000 for, and we were told that it would admin­ that ister the whole Colony.

I remember was slated not only by this this Council Office to Government but by the Colonial as if the whom Government officials there had anything to do with us.
of State of that time said The Secretary that the members of the Council were standing in the way of Government, because e,·en where Government had administration decided consi<lera­ the Council tion.

We knew what we were doing when we threw it out.

The expenditure of the $12,000 to Department for the coming $101,000, year will be $1,964.

Governors this kind of thing clear out and leave the bm·den here.

They do not remain to hear " I told you so."

(laughter).
(laughter).

to introduce local threw it out without has grown from and foe increase who do the headquarters It is impo1- if local government are ruu is a different from this.

The Lwo things can­ of Gov­ those countries ernment are fat· away.

In this Colony it is so easy to get from one part of the country to another.

I would like to ask Government is any of, this better since the inauguration scheme?

Government went so far as to fool the people that tbey would be given County Councils.

11ible.
11ible.

The system under which County Councils system altogether not be connected will never be able to do it.

'\Ve cannot mix oil and water, and that is what Gov­ ernment is trying to do.

It is only creat­ ing turmoit in the villages which never existed before.

Yet we are asked to pay more for it.

One of these days I will move that the elected Council leave Government I do not believe ment, but if Government majority what are we to do?

to carry on.
to carry on.

in threatening members of this Govern­ at all, and Government tries to fool us with these things, with its cast-iron Ta& CHAIRMAN : I think if the hon.

member lmd studied the explanatory memorandum only increase additional Rupnnuni.

he would have seen that the in staff for next year is one for the constable district Mr. ELEAZAR: Yes, that is so, but that is not the only increase.

·r will remain in the minority of all these new items here.
against one and protest There are so many new items for next (laughter).

of these estimates.

Mr. JAlOB: My friend has realised year; l think Govemment ought to be more frank.

Thera is too much subter­ fuge in the preparntion when That is my reason for protesting Govern­ are int1·oduced.

new departments ment never tums back when it has made a mistake, but tries to patch up thinga from time to time.

The time will come when these things will have to cease.
When any longer people cannot bea1· taxation they kick ove1· the tnice!!.

One cannot speak with the freedom one would like when these things are brought up.

We cannot persuade have to preach and ment is sincere.

We defend Government.

Admin­ This District istration scheme is one which cannot be of any proper use to this country.

It is for countries real civilised immediately from the Bahamas, and then went to and that was because in most of Africa, which are just marching government.
I will support him the day he to do that, and I think the time here for two clays that we after sitting He have to work together.

has waxed warm on this head and he thinks we should all waJk out of this Council.

arranges is ove1·due.

that thPl'e in Select Committee, Council too, tlrnt some reduction of the numbe11 of Dis­ be made in respect but I see the position trict Commissioners, has been aggravated the fact that the district honour to represent holder of the office.
I do not know have whether some of those gentlemen gone on leave, and whether the new created this morning will department that make some change there.

I realise to some extent by I have the bas no permanent given last year and I think in this would into It came about after the abolition some people that Govern­ I have a. distinct was a p1·omise of slavery, recollection 2211 Committee of Supply 11 NOYEMDEB1 1937.

-EstimalP-s, 1[188 226 employees concerned.


under the Unfixed Establishment the subordinate increases are such as tho hon.

member will sympa­ thise with as they are all increases junior employees.

The to As regards the service Commissioner will be sent there.
The district which others It is undesirable to have who is Medi­ here except we and I would like to it will be possible for the to return to the North OL' whether a new Com­ we can hardly do anything change our methods, be advised when Commissioner West District, missioner is not getl;ing o.re getting.
Commissioner a District it arose entirely cal Officer, Magistmte, Commissioner senior officers of the District Lands and Mines, County Inspector tion service Deputy Inspector-Geneml, and I think and the question a promise was given that Romething sioner returning would be done.

I do not know whether entirely Government available in the matter.

I do urge that decision decision there should he three officsrsi in the dis­ trict should be without trict.

The District be a l\fagistra.te, Government Inspector.
for Berbice are sevet·al appears going to increase.

Medical I ag1·ee River (Mr. Eleazar) new items under this head.

It year this head is Officer and 11.

Couuty with the hon.


membet· may but there should be a has come to any definite Commissionet· that year 11.fte1· Ttem (h)-Surveyors' that there of and the absence of the North West District, of the District from the fact that two Administra­ have been on leave this year, of a Dist.rict Commis­ there for duty depends upon when an oflicer will be No for posting has been arrived to that district.

at that the dis­ a Commissioner.


TuE COLONIAL SECRETARY: I to read move that this item be amended "Land Officer, Demerara $30 to $600)-$540.

post were prepared to put that right by putting scale.

overlooked last year, and I invite River 1$450 by This officer an"d the wa.s when my repo1·t the Council him on this $480.

Assh1tant, Mr. ELEAZAR: The distl'ict which is the only the hon.

member represents in which the one, except the Rupununi, holds several District Commissioner and I offices.
It is far from headquarters, cannot support bis suggestion that there should be several officers.

I o.m afraid of the bead sufficiently closely the expenditure on Colony lands the or the Depa1·tment, that it has absorbed Tu'E COLONIAL SECRETARY: With of the hon.
varied from $35,000 He will also find another item of expenditure appeared River (Mr. Eleazu) under the head in he has not studied regard to the main criticism member for Berbice as to the increase general, history he would realise Commissaries of which previously to $52,000.

la1·ge which previously and Mines, and in that Department reduction will also find a considerable personal emoluments.

The1·efore comparison preseut tion.


I suggest to him that he should go into the matter again and work out the true history The only real increase in the in regard to the constable Rupununi.

In other cases posts have been ta.ken out of the lump sum vote for the benefit of and shown separately between $12,000 and the will not bear examina­ expenditure he in hia under Lauds Item as a.mended put, 9.lld agreed to.

Item (1)-Allowance with special to Inte1·preter, qualification, West Demerara, $60.
Mr. LEE: On page SA of the Estimate an allowance it will be seen that the interpreter-clerk for the new Labour Department is to receive of $ I 20.

As far as I know the qualifications p1·eter, West Demerara, than those of the interpreter-clerk Immigration Department.

gest that be be given better of the inter­ are much higher consideration.
I therefore at the sug­ Mr. LATNG (District Commissioner, : The interpreter-clerk at in Hindi and is paid an allow­ East Demerara) the Immigration Department qualification ance at the rate of $10 per month.

The interpreter combines for that.

on the West Demernra of Urdu and is paid a knowledge has higher merely Dr. SINGH: I do not know whether would be in order in making some remarks • on the Hague road which is under the control of the District Commissioner.

I of the increase.
I of the increase.

is the one already mentioned Item put, and agreed to.

227 Committee 1938 228 of Supply LEGIBLATIVB COUXOIL, -Estimates, TsE CHAIRMAN : The hon.

member may speak on the subject under Public Works.

to leave eve1·y entitled I suggest question as he is very far away from his family.

the consider that Government of paying his travelling expenses two or three years.

Item (p)-5 Rangers, $2,910.


TuB COLONIAL SECRETARY : I do not know whetheP he has actually work, and it is a little his leave.

That will be considered by the Director General of Education who are both deeply interested.

early to talk about and the Surgeon­ starte<l Item put, and agreed to.

EDUCATION.

Mr. ELEAZAR: I was wondering travelling Mr. JACOB: I would like to draw in out­ it takes about five to the fact that rangers have to travel for several attention lying districts days.
For instance, days from Mabaruma to Arakaka, in an open canoe.

These men are absent from their homes for about seven 01· eight days a.nd suffer great hardships, observri that all the rangers as regards tion should be given to those rangers in the Rupununi, North river.

The promise was made to me recently that the question allowances raising not be lost sight of.

it a.gain so that the matter might but I rank together some co9sidera­ salary.

I think West and Essequebo would be re-considered.


of subsistence I am might not pass whether Your Excellency on to other beads and then return to this one, as there is so much to be said a.bout it.

I have tabled a motion for the and if it is appointment to carry out the intention the promise made in three successive years, it will save a lot of what I intend to say to-day.
I hardly think Govern­ ment intends to put what is called Code into operation Council an opportunity the last occasion Item (y)-Overtime allowances-Oollec­ for the appointment ernment said it would be better to await the preparation Code has now been prepared.

THE COLONIAL SECRETARY: The of travelling is being enquired to discuss when I tabled a motion Gov­ of a Committee of a Committee, of Government Mr. LEE: I would like Government without giving this it.

On and subsistence of the new Code.


The Item put, and agreed to.

Tax, $125.

into.

a new question allowances tion of Entertainment to gh-e early consideration from religipus to the Entertainment denominations to the petition with respect Tax.

Tee: COLONIAL SECRET.dRY: The referred to by the hon.

member petition ill receiving Government, ment will be able to make an 11J1nouncement 11000. the sympathetic of and it is hoped that attention Gornrn­ Item put, and agr�ed to.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY: I by moving the alphabet of a new item (z)-Duty wish to complete the insertion allowance Rupununi, to dispenser-teacher, $454.

To meet the needs of the children in that district the somewhat peculiar arrangement He also penser should act as a teacher.

trail.

A does clerical man bas been found who is qualified as a. dispenser but he will also receive the additional has been made that the dis­ work for the cattle an aUowance for duties.

and will be paid as a dispenser, l\Jr.


LEE: I understand he will be true, a.nd Code would come before promised Government That is perfectly TRE CHAIRMAN : The hon.

member tha.t before it is put into will also be pre­ stated that Government the Ednoation this Council.

that is the intention operation.

pared to ag1·ee to the appointment such as has been proposed, Committee that will be after the debate on his motion comes forward, most convenient tion Code before that Committee.
time, but cer­ I cannot say at the present will be givan the tainly an opportunity Council the Code and any report that m11.y be put forward by the Committee will be pre­ pared to appoint.

and it may prove the method to put the Educa­ That which Government first to consider and of a Mr. ELEAZAR: I will have to keep a good deal of my ammunition time.

To-day I will say that we cannot and I am spend too much on education, to oppose not prepared at this juncture In some any item on this estimate.
back for that 229 Committee of Supply 11 NOVEMBER, 1937, -Estimates, 1988 230 where in the world a man has to get 75 per cent.

of marks in order to get 1L pass.

This country no attempt.

these hardships.

has iL system of its own, and is being made to ameliorate matters, standard I am sorely because disappointed, to see eye-to-eye of $�0 per month.
He has to under­ and live up to a certain pittance respects I do not eeem to be able to get the Director of Education with me on certain and he has failed to get me to see from his point of view.

I think the Council ar.d Govern­ ment will agree with •me that something than they more is due to schoolmaste1·s are rece1v10g.

that an uncertifi­ I observe eated teacher the handsome is to receive salary go studies on the miserable while a 4th class policeman month.
Is a 4th class policeman greater use to the community class schoolmaster appealed ment could not be proper.

Some of those men will remain 3rd class schoolmaste1·s their lives.

That seems to be the policy of the Education not think it is correct.

is everything the Department He is 1·emoved Colony to another.

such influence District Commissioner in a village, is to b1·eak from one part of the Why should he have when the of $20 per month, gets $28 per of than a 3rd ?

Surely it must have of his influence.


in the Yillage is there?

'fhe schoolmaster that such an arrange­ but I do Department, but the policy to somebody all A Commission some time ago recom­ We schools propose to treat where Lhere arn about 900 children.

population nll the children mended that there should be larger built in certain centres which would and elimi­ accommodate nate some of tlte smalle1· schools.

hiwe had only one school built in Broad street How does Government the school-going ?
It has raised the school age from 5 to 6 years so are between 4 and 5 yeai·s that children allowed of being knocked Rosignol a dance hall.

There is no picture wall because I canuot understand that kind can be tolerated country.

Instead the Department schoolmasters do" n by motor cars.

At on in the school is being carried on the to run about lhe streets in a civilised of improving the schools makes regulations must not read newspapers.

there is no wall for a picture.


how conditions in danger that of There was a time when it was said by to be aban­ and the grant, like sardines in the country.

in a tin.

There are that there were too many Government did the fact that each although had its own building, the not more than what.

was closed its eyes to Government schools not appreciate denomination room space was Government required.

that and, with a. view to reducing the number of head teachers caused some of those schools doned.
'.L'he result is that the children have been packed into the rem,tiuing schools many schools 60 and 90 children like the Department Government candidly are under-staffed ernment is paying mi�erable teachers, under-staffing one result.

schoolmasters cates by sitting I wonde1· that those examinations once in a blue moon, a1ul that a candidate must gi•t 75 per cent.

of murks before he I do not know can get a certificate.
but if I will be told at the same time are only held Gov­ siilaries to the schools and can only have iu the Colony with between I should to tell I may be told that 3rd class can improve their certifi­ over-crowding them.

'l'hat higher examiuations, to its knowledge.

how many schools of Education in one clitss.

A body of schoolmasters The Council will have an opportunity to to-day about what it contains.
under which recently has kindly agreed to will have an opportunity the new Code, and I will not say and the school­ to state Your Excellency to the conditions discuss anything Y ou1· Excellency appoint a Committee masters their grievances.

approached with respect they labour.

I have heard of people stag­ ing a fa.ice t1nd have seen one staged many times, but I have never seen a greater than that.
The second Puisne Judge at the conference the perpetrator schoolmasters allowed '.L'hey thanking hearing very patient, nothing extraordinary could not give them anything obvious the They wern about.

but that was all they got.

tell me they spoke Y ou1· Excellency and left itfter for the patient you gave them.

You are always of the gl'ievances was the maker of t.he Code, and I told them they got (laughter).

complained 1·easons.


to speak, more, for farce You That is not the only fault of the Depart­ will tell that ment.

School managers they are told whom they must employ.

Schoolmasters pillar to post and are expected to be very patient under such conditions.

I see :1re being knocked from 231 Committee of SupplyL:EGISLATiVE COUNCIL, -Estimates, 1�88 232 have Department or to people's Education should know such things and right them.

The children to go to the riverside to get water.


Every word I have said here can be verified.

that is governing any regard at all for any appeal made by those of us who have been put here ostensibly Govern­ ment, but in reality govern us.
Vve have a Government without for Government to assist houses to the Council the Colony is getting probe into the and Department all it When the motion is before I will ask Government to working of the Education see whether should get for the money it is expending, or whether more dollars results.

playing education I do not think Government is to the the game with respect of this Colony.
by the expenditure of the children Government may not reap of a few The Director as a sort of makeshift to indicate that the will be any better; them to become to of Edu�ati�n his head, but there are guls m better to do.

the policy of the to have pupils who were in the in a school as pupil teachers nothing in the estimates lot of the pupil teachers nothing to encourage for all their lives.
They use the teachers teaching profession until they can find sgmething To-day it is against Department trained same school.

In consequence those young people are removed from Essequebo Springlands.

is shaking New Amsterdam parts of the Colony.

I am told by school­ that their nights are not free; masters books to their they have to take exercise homes to correct Those are conditions wrong.

The Education extravagant.


to put up with extravagance getting it back in the quality tion received, benefit at all.

I will touch on Queen's College at the same time.

The Governors say that the College space.

is not Department be inclined The public would if they were of the_ educa­ but they are gettrng no the work of the class.

who have come from all has not sufficient which are palpably l\'Ir.

JACOB: I am grateful for the we of but if you that expen­ College?
illustra­ College, Queen's ber speaking about THE CHAIRMAN : Is the hon.

mem­ most of the ground.

too by Government that given by Government assur­ The hon.

but I think it should be is productive expen­ will be con­ and for the further he has said, ,ind to add a few of my own.

It is.

admitted by the hon.

member for Eleazar) early assurance the motion tabled Rive1· (l\fr.

Berbico sho1·tly, sidered ance that it will be accepted.
member has covered J have merely risen to endorse almost everything observations on all sides that it is all a question expenditure, admitted diture on education diture.

Perhaps I will be told, as I have been told with respect that there is no money to erect buildings.

In Select money should be spent in erecting schools, because the worse it becomes.

expended Department at the Police Headquarters, buildings for the could have been utilised Brickdam, erection that of schools in districts require them.
I know that several schools help to make the conditions easier.

be gone into also.

I am sorry to see that there is no great increase I would urge that something promptly buildings, flt:hool few more educational Half of the money in providing offices for the and the construction to provide one or 1,wo new and a. teachers addition<tl oflfoers.
would somewhat the longer the question Forest of new that it was suggested are required; their erection of staffing ought to The question Mr. ELEAZAR: I am dealing with proper and only giving of particular it is always thought when that is has been complaining, primary I am not going to mention cases, I will do so.

I have only in which a few instances may be made to improve education tions about Queen's wish me to leave Queen's College until 1·each there enumerated attempts education.
some abuses in respect because done that somebody as if a member would not find out how thinas are going so as to be able to dis­ to his charge his duty conscientiously constituents.

case is When a particular mentioned he must have interviewed will speak generally.

my district children tional is owned Church while the building by the Scots Chm·ch body.

The Scots ChUt·ch becam,e they get no benefit from it; the Congrega­ tional it because it does not belong to them.

The buildwg will £11.ll down some day.


'l'he suffers because the member.

I in There is a school the majority are members of tbe Congrega­ Church authorities the poor fellow the building Of course the appointment will not repair cannot repair Committee under this hea d, to Queen's in which College, be dohe very of more is put oft' of the 233 Oommittee of Stipply11 NOVEMBIIR, 1937.

-Estimates, 1938 234 than to see uneduc,tted children.
In in taxing and I appeal but in some cases the from employing under 1 i years should be is great unemploy­ to ernploy­ officers would result further, c,in tnke a few more children.

,u·e sent to work, educatfonal the schools schools many cases the children but I do not think it is the best policy that children made to work.

'l'here ment in the Colony, et's of labour to refrain children under 12 years of age.
'.l'lmt would help in a way, but it may be argued that it might crca.te ha1·dshipfl I would much prefer to see hardships created I prefer to �e children in 11chool.

When the proper time comes we will have an opportunity education subscribe drastic necessary.

I <lo not to the view that there should be but some changes are should be changed.

to say how the system of to some extent.

changes, Mr. LEE: I also join in the appeal which should be mem­ Every elected made to Government seriously considered.
ber will agree that Government Khould adopt the policy of building the Colony, throughout of Education includes year a isum of money for the erection schools it.
would support in his estimate each of I feel 11u1·e that every member schools and if the Director of Biver for Berbice has touched there are two on many points so that some and the Education which come in for a tremen­ may be the order of the Estimates in future, other might come in for the early membel'l:1 of this Coun­ the Annual Estimates departments dous a.mount of fire, the Department Agriculturn Depart­ ment.

I would like to suggest that perhaps re-armnged dep.irtments fire of the elected cil.
'.l'he hou.

membet' (l\lr, Eleazar) with which I have a great deal of sympathy, and l think Government is also in l:lym­ pathy with them.

llowever, there are one or two remarks with which I would an<l point out-I would like to deal briefly he may have not say inaccunwies-where bt.>en slightly 'l'he first.

question salaries and tbe deputation Excellency the points discussed salaries.
say that -although they might lmve away, as they appe,ued the question rather disappointed, ries has not been entirely ignored by Government.

which are uuder consideration respect.

misinformed.

he dealt with was the question of teachers, of 3rd class certificated so�e time ago when one of of I think I am in n po11i tion to '.l'hern Me certain points which waited on You1· was the que11tion to lmve done, (Hear, hear).
uow in that of sala­ gone With regard to schools I would ask the recommenda­ to consider Government tion of the Medical mittee in paragraph states:- Re-organisation 125 on page 30, which Com­ where there are apµroximately " The Committe11 that in also recommends o. school in the primary i\faternity the clinic mornin!

:(s, the medic&!

I rom the Government schools, at the preferably and Child should should be established, .Mnnicivo.l Clinic.
At the outset, Georgetown, 11,000 childrnn cllnic Georgetown Welfare be open on S&tnrd&y officers being provided and the Municipal the direr.Lion The coat of snc!J a. clinic ing mainly of the cost history The medicRl the r.linic, and any other which may be eatab­ li�hed would, over a period of two or three years, provide �ome and reliable reg&rdinl?

formation child in the Colony."

definite the health of the school of t!Je Oeu tr&l Board of Heal tb.
under Health Departments of the childreu o[ medicines in• supplied.

a.r ten1ling would be Rtn&ll, con11i1t­ to which exists and the congestion With regard to the undeM;talling i11 being made by the Department congested, and every under-staffed, of schools in the schools I think Govcrnml'nt is fully a.re aware of those two facts.

The ,;chools in many instance11 and tlH'y arc in many instances effort relieve that and thnt uuder­ congestion staffing.
I would like to point out that lJoth of t!1ose pointt1 are really and truly those which have come to the front during the pttst year or so.

I have figurefi now in front of me, and if hon.

memberll would memorandum they turn to the explanatory would see the reason fot· asking for an in­ crease of grants to primary The figures show that the increase age attendance thr estimate about 1,300, while the iucrea.sP over 1,500.
The congPstion about definitely mrut i11 goiug up by leapi; and bounds, and and I think I 1.1,Jso the :werngc can 11ay with a certain amount of i;afety that Government will have to consider ijowe step!!

i11 hrou«ht by the fact tlmt, the e11;ol­ tichoohi.

in t11e aver­ 10:!7, on which was for 1938 wns framed, to date is being taken to relieve atte1Hlance, to April, the con• I think if Government started in that small way every elected to �upport willing Government.

member would be llr.


CREA.SB (Dit'ector of Education) It eemi; to me th11t every timl!

we di11cusa : 235 Committee of Stipply LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Estimates, 1938 236 gestion acute.

(Hear, hear).

which h bf'coming more and more The hon.

member for Berbice River Tlw hon.


mem­ spoke a lot about the was a building who regarded that the school at rented from pro­ it more or less as a (Mr. Eleazar) Government School in Georgetown, ancl school Maid it was the onlv Government I would remind him that establish<'d.

since that school was opened we have ope1wcl one at Anna Regina, Beterver­ wagting and Hosignol.

ber also mentioned Rosignol prietors dance hall.


It is quite true that ihe but building I would like to sav for his information that scho�l that the question to Govern­ has recently ment.

·we arc doing all we possibly to relieve and I am quite sure that the time is not when we shall have to go to far distant and ask for furthe1· Government in order to relieve is rented and is congested, the congestion.
the congestion been submitted of enlarging assistance can in the schools, his educiition or at a school near received to his home, but in each instance the pupil teacher is always asked whether he to accept appointnwnt else is prepared where.

He is never forced to go any­ where.

It is definitely the policy of the to assist Department as far as it possibly tled in the clistrict be employed.
all assistaut can, to sec them set­ in which they wish to teiichers, potable has been Pxperif'llced wak1· for the children.

of chil­ was made to theqUt•stion water from muddy trenches.

Reference dren drinking T know tlmt in the past a consitlerable amount of difficulty in securing is for a special con­ The usual practice tainer to be kept in the school.
I may has lwen made in the adu that pro,ision estimates for !L large number of schools plied with water from artesian drinking of the Public Works Department to he sup­ wells for purposes.

On the question of the hon.

member said that the of the employment because the Education who should be appointed.

could not employ Depart­ teachers managers of the schools teachers ment dictates 1 would like to inform the hon.

member that it is very rare that the Department has to refuse appro,·al of teachers.
all appointments of the Director approval and it is on very rare occasionH, reasons, for some specific ment says "No, this cannot be approved."

As a rule, in ()0 per cent.

of the cases both the Goveming Bodies and the Managers have their way in appointing of Education, and only that the Depart­ As the hon.

member knows, of the appointment are subject to the teachers.

Those are the chief points which the considerable expel'iences hon.

member has rnised.
member has rnised.

I am in sym­ pathy with a great deal of them, hut I would like to stress the point that the diffi­ Department to all these matters of culty in attending staIT amr extension so on, with the sum available and if we arc to have idt•al adequate ing that we shall have to ask Governme;t to increase demands.

at present, school,; and in 1:m.y­ staffing I do not hesitate the vote in order to meet those of buildings, increasing '.\Ir.
JACOB: I suggest that in future the Estimate teachers teachers.

should show the number of and the scales of salaries of all and in the schools tlwir elementary The hon.

member also said it was against the policy of the DPpartment to employ pupil teachers where they had receiYecl As far as I am coucerned, education.

for some time past, I know that every effort has been made when making appoint­ ments of pupil teachers, in the schools where they had received their education.
that every effort is made to employ them in schoolti Occasionally teacher is unable to find employment either in the school in which he has as near their homes as possible.

it hap1 ens that a pupil If it is impossible to employ them to do infol'mation to give members of the CoU11cil, TIIE CIIAIRMAN : I am quite pre­ it is pan·d to give whatever possihlP but I think the information membel' to he included salaries in the Estimate.

The of teachers is asking for is rather too complex the hon.
vary considerably.

Mr. JACOB: I understand that thf' salary is $1 lO and the lowest $6 highest per month.

I do not think there are more than 12 grades.

THE CHAIRM4N : That is all set out Code, but I do not of it in the in the draft Education mind giving a 'skeleton Estimate.

237 Committee of Siippl y 11 NOVEMBER, 1938 238 1937.

-E.�timntes, Item (k)-1 Atten<lance Office1· ($:288 l tem as amended put, and agreed to.

to $'180 by $24), $5-!0.

:\Jr.


JACOB: I think a recommen<lu.tion was mu.de in Selcc t Commi ttce tlrn,t, there should be an increase Atten<lance some audition Oilicers, to the vote.

and I expPctetl Lo find of the numlJcr of OJliccrs Tm COLONIAL SECRETARY: The Attendance but at the prPsent of additional quci;tion has been considered, moment tho view of the Education ment and Government tmchPrs so urgently the question Of:licers until we get more tearhers.
is that we want that we must elder Depart­ Item put, and agreed to.

Item 1 7-2 Jubilee, 5 Government Junior and 60 Government $4,939.

Scholarships, County TnE COLONIAL SECRETARY: I to provide of a new item 18- High School for Boys-Scholu.1·­ move the insertion Berbice for one boy coming ship-$90, from the Berbice High School to attend Queen's College after ho has rc�Lched standard that qualifies course of study for the British Scholarship.

tho him to start tL Guiana Item put, and agreed to.
for Primu.ry 8chools, of another item, SO­ move the insertion Attendance Registers $�50.

This is a book-keeping ing out of an audit query on the present method by which registers the Department schools.

revenue.

and issued to the primary The amount will be recovered arc bought by ent1·y aris­ by of additional AttentlRnce Tim COLOXIAL SECRETARY: I also Item put, and agreed to.

Tm, COLONIAL SECRETARY: I are awar<letl.

is a Bill before Council which on which the .Mit­ on the be u.mended in order As hon.
membe1·s for carrying Foundation.

the conditions Scholarships the duty of the Colony to move that this item to make provision Mitchell know, the1·e outlines chell Foundation It is obviously provide for the continuation ations which are held by certain girls under the existing proposed order to enable that to be done.

I move that the vote be increased to $6,000 in order to provide tion Scholarships course, hold at present, number because, expire, they of the Found­ boys and It is in will not be 1·eplaced.
the number of scholarships regulations.

that this vote be increased for 11 Mitchell next year.

That is, of actually Founda­ but it is a diminishing TnE COLONIAL SECRETARY: I of another $412, to provide move the insertion Passages, passage of the Principal Trade Centre under contract expire next year, and the passage successor item, 31- for the ret11rn of the Cu.rnegiu which will when appointed.

of her l\1r.
of her l\1r.

ELEAZAR: I do not like this one, but as I said I would not oppose anything under Education I will let it go.

Item put, and agreed to.

as the scholarships The Council resumed and adjournr•d until the following clay at LO.

:JO o'clock.