Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698068408229.pdf (Guyana)
843 Members Present LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Mosquito Netting 844 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ern District).

The Hon.

C. R. Jacob (North West­ The Hon.

A. G. King (Demerara River).

Wednesday, 18th October, 1944.

The Hon.

J. W. Jackson, O.B.E.

'(Nominated).

The Council met at 12 noon, Hls The Hon.

T. Lee (Essequibo River).

the Officer Excellency the.

Government, Preside,n,t, C.M.G., Mr. W. L. lleape, in the Chair.

Administering The Hon.

A. M. Edun (Nominated).

The Hon.

V. Roth (Nominated).

PRESENT.


The Hon.

C. P. Ferreira (Berhice River).

The Clerk read prayers.

His Excellency the Government, the Officer Adminis­ Mr. W. L. Heape, tering C-M.G., President.

The Hon.

the Colonial Secretary (Acting) Mr. M. B. Laing, O.B.E.

The minute,s of the meeiting of the held on Thursday, Council, 1944, as printed taken as read and confirmed.

and circulated, were 12th October.

The Hon.

the Attorney-General, E. O. Pr.etp.eroe, Mr.

M.C., K.C.

ANNOUNCEMENT.

The Hon.


the Colonial Treasurer, Mr. E. F. McDavid, C.B.E.

APPRECIATION OF THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.

The Hon.

C. V. Wight (Western Essequibo).

The Hon.

J. I. de Aguiar (Central Demerara).

The /PRESIDENT: I have been.

Chamber of asked by the Georgetown Commerce to conve:y their thanks to the Legislative the Bill to amend the Georgetown Chamber of Commerce Council for passing Ordinance.

The Hon.

H. N. Critchlow (Nomi­ nated)� ORDER OF THE DAY.

The Hon.
The Hon.

M. B. G. Austin, 0.B.E.

( Nominated) .

MOSQUITO NETTING FOR INDIGENT PERSONS.

The Hon.

F. Dias, O.B.E.

(Nomi­ nated).

Mr. ROTH: .Sir, I beg to move:-­ The Hon.. Percy C. Wight, O.B.E.

Central) ( Georgetown .

The Hon.

J.

B. Singh, 0.B.E.

(Dem­ erara-Essequibo).

The Hon.

Peer Bacchus (Western Berbice).


Whereas Georgetown has been for the past two years, and at present the incidence of malaria in is higher than it Whereas the supply of quinine is limited may be replaced, and and it is conjectural when stocks Whereas despite Government's to exempt it from Bill of Entry promise Tax, mosquito netting ' :reach Qf voor people; is still l;>eyond th� 845 Motion- 18 OCTOBER, 1944.
Mosquito Netting 8..J.R to Government that this Honour­ Be it Resolved, able Council recommend the taking of such steps as may be neces­ sary to bring this most essential com­ modity, mosquito netting, reach of indigent trolled tutions, Maternity Society, by way of con­ charitable insti­ such as the Infant Welfare and League, the St. Vincent de Paul grants to certain and ··arious persons, within the Dorcas Societies.
remeI?1ber the old music hall song, the r�fram of which goes: "The rich get richer and the poor get children."

is .

very true, unfortunately this country and its conditions.

true of That I gave notice of this motion quite a is one of the time ago cturi11g the last from which we suffer and the malariologists considerable and perhaps technically the session, facts may not be quite what they were then.
Nevertheless it is admitted th::i.t malaria in its effects greatest scourges in this country, as-sure physical practical mosquito fore the only means of fighting this and diseases is ·to take other mosquito-borne and until we know preventive the results ments with DDT the present method of against pYotection of mosquito netting.

us that owing to the peculiar conditions ly impossi1bl carrier of the country it is e to eradicate the of this disease.
There­ of the forthcoming experi­ mos qui toes is the use measures, to the Chamber of Comme1�ee Services In June last the Director addressed I have read the monthly of children receiv­ and I find that their to mosquito-borne diseases and from such Since I have been allowed the hon­ our to sit on the Board of Poor Law Commissioners �ports of the visitors mg outdoor relief, con?ition of health is due in part, if not entirely, lack of means of protection diseases.
Medical the subject and I understand ter were distributed bers.

I am very pleased the recommendations Jetter are very much in line with those in my motion.

If you will permit me sir, I will read an extract letter After explaining net unless a mosquito the Director ter:- that it is no use having goes on to ·state it is pYoperly used among hon.

Mem­ to note that that copies a letter in order to remind hon.

Members.
Members.

of that let-' from that of on in his let­ in the Director's "The following consider, programme organizations might, I co ... operate in carrying out the in the first instance:- Some time ago I approached Gov­ they declined that they would still mosquito netting.

For which no doubt Government con­ good and proper ernment with the reque·st would subsidize reasons sidered to do so-that is to subsidize it gener­ did promise to Government ally-but remove the Bill of Entry Tax.
Whether that has been done or not I am not cer­ tain.

But even if the Bill of Entry Tax were removed the material be beyond the meall's For instance, yesterday sion to have enquiries the dry goods stores to ascertain the price of the very cheapest mesh netting, average the war one could get a suitable net for $3.50; today it is impossible to get the under $9.50.

Those who same article suffer most from mosquito-borne dh;­ eases are undoubtedly and more particularl of the poor.
Hon, Member� may and found that it cost an of 72 cents per yard.

Before of the poor man.

I took the occa­ and largest y the children made throughout the children, (a)Government Health Depart­ as follows-No.

ment - eight health visitors are e�ployed (stationed 7!1 .. .Village, Springlands; Williamsburg, Corentyne; Bush Lot, West Coast Ber.

bice; Buxton; Kitty; Den Amstei, East Coast, Demerara: quibo).

It is part of their d�ties to.


to all new born make regular visits infants and to attend at regular natal clinics the doctor).

in their hom(:.s, infant and pre-­ (both with and without in their districtc; Anna Regina Esse- (b)Health visitors employed by the Infant Welfare League.

There are six Health Visitors Amsterdam; cola, East Bank, Demerara; and Suddie.
Vreed-en-Hoop (c)In Georgetown, stationed Beterverwagting; Agri­ La Penitence; as follows-New a number of health visitors tion and control Department.

working under the direc­ of the Municipal Health 5.The following are sui­ principles gested:- S47 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Mosquito Netting 848 (a)Distribution babies.

to clinic vision is _otherwise should be confined Reason:-proper impossible.

super­ (b)A nominal charge (at least) sihould be made for every net issued.
( c)Before a net is sold the Health herself that the Visitor sh.ould satisfy mother has available so that the net can actually that she understands ( d)An approved be used and its proper use.

uniform design of _ a suitable cot, etc., net should be issued.

A demonstration cot properly linen, and net, should be set up in each health centre.

equipped with mattress, I and the development and development I have taken up the question of this coun­ of the constituency progress try.
Speaking represent of land settlement of the East Bank of the· Berbice River, that but I have it from Government in cannot be considered land settlement of malaria.

that di.strict It is because is one of well known that that district and it in the Colony, the most fertile seems a crying shame to think that fer­ tile lands should be in existence Colony and allowed to go abandoned merely because control are not made to malaria.
efforts in this ( e) Regular checks for six months should be made that the net is being prop­ by the Health Visitor to ascertain erly cared for and used.

In the first instance the scope of the There are a to· the districts scheme might be restricted served by health visitors.

number of other districts nine subsidized midwives.
gest in the first instance into the scheme but the position should be reviewed the inception extension six months to a year after of the plan with a view to I do not sug­ bringing them if it is successful.

served by thirty­ It is estimated that about 3,000 babies will attend these clinics sive of Georgetown) .n in a year( exclu­ of malaria the effects The question There is no douht i's a very big one and I will not take up the time of the Coun­ cil by discussing and malnutrition.
that some effort the acceptance of some assistance , I think .

thi·.s Government steps to do everything help the peopfe and so help the Colony.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: (Mr. should be made, and if.
of this motion would be in controllin in .its power to g malaria should take What I am asking is that Govern­ include of Medical other welfare the suggestions Services and organ­ f'.uch as Dorcas Societies, in par­ Club and the Children's ment would implement of the Director in addition izations ticular organizations rE'ally deserving would be placed in a position J,his very essential health.

the motion.

cases of poor pe,oplc to acquire of their _ Dorca·.s of that nature whereby I ask hon.
Members to support safeguard Mr. FERREIRA: I have great I, how­ the sympathetic in seconding the motion so ably of this Council.

plemrnre moved, and I feel sure that a motion such as this will receive consideration ever, think the motion does not go far enough.

made an announcement ments with DDT.
I consider of the most outstanding announcements made in this Council time, because I am convinced that to the is the chi�f ,mpediments fllalari� Your Excellency with regard to experi­ for a considerable Recently that one in be regarded y in this Colony Unfortunatel : The motion which has in the motion before the Laing, Acting) just been moved in connection with mos­ has the sympathy of quito netting Government, but not to the extent mentioned Council, which asks that mosquito netting be brouught within reach of indigent persons.
there is a great deal of overcrowding as slum areas.

what mio-ht occupy A very 1:rge number of persons the same room and many persons actu­ ally occupy the siame bed, and I have known and seen in.stances sleep not only on the bed but under the bed.

That is not a condition peculiar to this Colony but occurs the world over.

It will be re,alized .

in there would be considerable making proper use of mosquito netting under those conditions.
essential-and the Director Services has stressed infant life should be protected, tecited in particular mosquito.

vices therefore ¥ember h�·.s told It is therefore of Medical proposes, us, to build a demon- the malaria Ser­ of Medical by Members that difficulty the point-that where persons The Director as the hon.

against and pro­ 849 Mosquito Netting 18 0CTOBERi 1944.
Spirit Shop Ho11,1·s 850 in cot and to educate persons nets for covering By doing that they their children not in the evenings but course, protect stration the use of mosquito their young children.

can,of only from mosquitoes also during the daytime, suggestion Services be made availiable babie� at a nominal and the further by the Director of Medical is that the mosquito net should to mothers of clinic charge.
receive of a reply that on receipt assurance from the Director of Medical Services a-s to the organizations which he thinks net­ could profitably mosquito the mat­ ting at the cost to Government ter would be b-rought back to the Coun­ cil?

We are rather in the dark still; we do not know what it is going to cost, and it is asking quite a lot of Gov­ ernment to accept the motion without knowing how much money will have to be expended .
of the Medical to If agree to with­ The cost of that proposal is now the attention and Government desires the motion to that extent.

receiving Department, support the hon.

Member would draw his motion I think Government would give an undertaking from the point of the matter further ons made by view of the recommendati the Director Services, that of Medical is to try to make mm;quito netting far as possible cost to mothers of clinic also to provide in the use of mosquito available babies, and netting.
as to examine at a nominal the necessary education with the Government is in sympathy and if the Director of Medical says that in hi's opinion mos­ can be usefully motion, Services qui to netting such a price to such and such an organi­ cost to Govern­ zation, ment of so much, I will bring the matter back to the Council which will then decide whether it is prepared to spend that money.

Will that meet the hon.

Member?


with resulting issued at Mr. ROTH: I am very grateful attitude in going position, cannot implementing-the motion who 0annot be but i.vho also requir� of this nat.ure to hear Government\s so far towards I have moved, but one has to remem­ ber thaJt there is quite a larg� popula­ tion of young children as infants, classed and should have protection which their parents and guardians, through their indigent afford.
Whilst being very thankful for to the length to assurance Government's which it will go, I ciannot conscientiously withdraw the Council there are hundreds, of little infancy mosquitoes.

certain of the reputable welfare organizations grant from which really could be assisted infants.

the Director's children who suffer considerably from What I am asking is that my motion.
I will leave it to for the reason that I say , other than actnal This would not be effected if not thousand·s beyond the stage of proposals.

deserving cases be given some contro1led by move:- The PRESIDENT: Perhaps I should ask the hon.

Member if he would with­ draw his motion if Government gave the Mr. ROTH: Yes, sir.

I thank you.
I thank you.

Government would the appointment of a to go into those very I had rather thought have suggested small Committee points which Your Excellency assures me Government itself into.

I accept your assurance rlraw the motion.

now will go and with .. Motion withdrawn.

AMENDMENT OF LICENSED PREMISES ORDINANCE.
Mr. CRITCHLOW: I beg to BE IT RESOLVED, that this Coun­ to Government be enacted in order that the premises cil recommends legislation hours between which licensed may be open in urban areas, as set out in the First Schedule Premises Ordinance, follows:- 1944, be amended as that to the Licensed (a)That every day with the exception Day, and Christmas of Sundays, Good Friday, and as otherwise in this resolution provided amended to read-8.30 p.m.-3 p.m. to 7 p.m. a.m. to 12.30 be 851 Motion-- t.ooISLATIVE COUNCIL.
Spirit Shop Hours 852 (b)That Saturdays be amended to a.m. to 12.30 p.m.-2.30 read-8.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. (c)That all Wednesdays and public holidays 8.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. be amended to read- I ask permission to substitute the following for par.
(b) of the motion:- "(b) That Saturdays be amended to read 9 a.m. to 12 noon-3 p.m. to 8 p.m." spirit Several and shop proprietors have asked me to because to amend Premises of the fact that they to ge,t Government to the Licensed shop assistants endeavour the Schedule Ordinance do not agree with the shift sys.tern.

have already the Ministerial Secretary employers I hope that the Council the motion.

along with the names of and assistants handed in a letter from Fraternal who signed it.
will support to the Colonial I I today than in my day, and I When I was a young man I drank one night and found in a very funny position.

until 9 o'clock my·self know what drink is causing the youths of this Colony.

We find more youths drinking do not think Government Welfare Organization tion to encourage Many crimes are due to drink.

I hope the hon.

Nominated Member, Mr. Edun, will second this motion and withdraw his own, ·so that the two may be dealt with together.

our youths to drink.


has any inten­ or the Social on the with the acting as Chairman, the other view-the King, J.

A. Luckhoo, and myself, Secretary of the hours.

comprising a·s the Bill became law I tabled my motion asking that consideration be given to the question There was a Committee Hons.

de Aguiar, Critchlow Colonial which there was unanimous agreement on the other phases of the Bill but not as regards of hours.
Mr. the fixation Luckhoo did not attend the meeting, but Mr. de Aguiar and Mr. King stood of the on the question out p1·ominently and while Mr. Critchlow shift system, I supported fixation of hours.

I thought the Chairman might have given his vote in favour of our side, seeing that it was more in the the social and moral wel­ interest of fare of certain I am of people.

not here to say what prompted the Chairman to decide the other way.

Pe"!
Pe"!

'haps he thought of both sectio:hs prcmise, but I thought of the Social Welfare might have thrown side.

In any case that is the past.

I do not wish to refer to it, but with your permiS'sion, cutting 16th inst.ant by the Chief Justice reads:- of the from the Daily Chronicle to comments with reference of Bermuda.
It that as the head Organization he his weight on our sir, I would like to read a ii was the business to arrive at a com­ classes this Mr. EDUN: In seconding motion I would like to enquire whether the motion standing not be discussed in my name can­ at the same time?

The ATTORNEY -GENERAL is that if the motion before The position the Council motion cannot be taken at this session.

the hon.
the hon.

Member's is carried consumptio "The excessive for the establishment and the necessity a Borstal Sir Brooke Francis, in his address to the grand jury at the Assizes.
opening of the Michaelmus n of liquor of were dealt with by the Chief Justice, Institution as 'a "The Chief Justice described the extent to which appears as a contributory of many of the listed to be dealt with at this "The manifestation is but fur­ of the view I hold, and matter of concern' drunkenness factor in the commission offencEs session.
ther confirmation of the opinion in social welfare tion of spirituous criminate elements but excessive expressed work, that the consump­ liquor is not only indis­ of the population."

by those engaged among certain Mr. EDUN: With that explana­ tion I will second the motion moved by the hon.

Member.

When the Bill was: before the Council absent owing to ill health, and as soon I was unfortunately Mr. JACKSON: May I ask, from what paper the hon.

Member is read­ ing?

Is it from the "ChroniclP,"?


853 M otiori- i8 Oc'.

;t'OBE�, 1944.

Spirit 1Shop I!

ours �5,1 Mr. EDUN: An extract from the "Daily Chronicle".

l\fr.

JACKSON: What paper is the from?

hon.


Member reading strata welfare should drink the square, to 9 o'clock, I do not drink, as I If you continue set strata and another of people knocking ·as if we are grading side of the question who are poisoning in the distribution women of dis-reputable of Georgetown from 7 you an unde­ of the sale of to open spirit people will go human about That is what we ought in this City of ours which the social is concerned.
If you happen to walk on the streets in the evening o:clock would see on the pavements sirable clas's the rumshops.

to eliminate town.

Let we.

claim to be our principal me take you for a mental walk to the John Bull rumshop in the evening just across and you will see some sjghts that will make your heart leap.

It is not because do claim that everybody if he or she wants to.
But this much I ought to claim and what I do not like to ·see, is one set of people to be classed in a particular in another classes liquo!·.

·shops at night certain there.

You are encouraging vampires, char­ acter, morals of our people but their physical condition definit e plan of work so far as the Americans are concerned lactic agaim;t syphilis diseases in Georgetown.

lent system.

I know that system.

It was shown me how it is carried out.


We are not in a position in this country a system like that to institute in Georgetown to save the people from if we cannot themselves do that then we ought to do thi·.s: Let the people be able to drink or purchase their ·'grog" in the rumshops up to ?

in the evening, and if they are o'clock not contented with· that they may buy and take it to their homes to be drunk there after that time.

I know the drink and people of the upper classes but where'?.
get drunk and behave badly, In their clubs or in their homes.

It is one's privilege not to drink and be drunk on the streets and 'So have the Police persons other crimes actually in a prophy­ and other It is an excel­ after you.

Many of drunkenness caused by liquor.

to do that, but certainly also.

I know there is a and, therefore, are convicted not only the or I want to appeal to Government and to take to the proprietors themselves Mr. EDUN: From the ''Labour Advocate.''
(Continuing to read) were improving; "It is not as if the position in this on the ,contrary as the result of two and a that there is a respect it is my belief half years' deterioration, me whether should not submit themselves, heatedly though it may be, in this fifth year of war, to some measure and you may ponder with the people of the Colony experience of restraint!'
That is an expression of opinion legal member of the of working are applica­ on the consump­ and I think the time the situation, as I do, the Chief Jm;tice.

But this is not a question h; collected.

This which affects the vast class people not only and New Amsterdam district.

:; as well.

It 8ir, I am of the that in the urban areas the from a prominent Bermuda community, On examining I feel the same conditions ble in this country, is ripe when restriction tion of liquor should be definitely maintained.
of whether revenue is a question majority in Georgetown but iri the country is for that reason, opinion proprietors kind of compromise, That is to say, taking Georgetown for example, from Camp Skeet to the waterfront to Sussex Street will be a zone in which all the spirit shops should be �losed at the hours specified in the conditions exist in motion.

Similiar the other stores, the .

larger ones :in Water Street close at 4 o'clock in the afternoon to 7 o'clock.
for persons while the others continue and from Lamaha Street; There will be ample time one of zoning.

of rumshops to get their liquor.

can come to a The question, as it stands, affects and moral welfare of a class the social of people definitely.

I too have been approached by the Minister's Fraternal my level best to win the support of hon.

Members of this Council and asked to do I say that because in so far as 855 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Spirit Shpp Hoy,rs 856 then as Drinking of the other.
is not prompted of Georgetown If it is otherwise, it is the duty drinking on after 7 in Bermuda is the here.

One is just the fac­ is not con­ a serious vieiw of the situation.

The condition condition simile ducive to any ideal at all, but if some then let them people think otherwise drink at home or within the precincts I think, of a club.

Surely, of the State to prohibit the streets oclock at night or after dark.

I 3.111 sure that Governme1nt in this case by the motive of collect­ ing revenue.
I would be sorry, a British Guianese but in my own mind I feel certain it is not so.

It is not a question enue collectio of liquor.
a large sum of money on the social organizations welfare Development Colonial Act organization, to show some gesture of goodwill having accepted Imperial We and welfare should say to the Impe,rial ment, "We are following thou,ght limit certain drunk on the, streets to prove that we mean to carry out the principles opment in British your trend of we are going to of people being and actio�; classes and assisted by ihe n from the consumption Now that we are spending work in this Colony.
of Georgetown to carry on social that gift from the i think we ought Government Welfare Devel­ and Welfare of Social Guiana."

Govern­ of rev­ I do not want to detain the Coun­ I wm sure, the are willing The hon.

Mover has told you as the result of the complica­ cil.

I do not think it is a controve,rsial question.

that even the employers to have the change.


shift system will not be in the inter­ themse1lVes est of the employers because, tions and the many questions to be Authority and asked by the Competent the Labour Inspectors, it will not be worth their while gaining a few dollars and having to answer so many questions.

system will be more trouble fit to them.


I am sure that they as proprietors their shops at night for the gain of T'he shift than bene­ are not prompted to open are view­ in the same way as I am more money and, if they view it and the Ministers citizens are a little the situation viewing ing it and other prominent it, I think the time has supporting come when we should eiliminate from drinking the streets of Georgetown at night.
The streets after 7 o'clock will be clear; the people will benefit and you will have a happier people.

Member of this Council support Mover, and let us have a fixation the hours as stated and not forget of Bermuda what the Chief Justice has pronounced.

present tu the motion as laid by the hon.

So I think I should ask ever.v set of of on their with which a subject in delaying they have attempt­ Mr. de AGUIAR: I wish first of all the hon.
Mover of this the proceed­ by the introduction to congratulate motion and his able seconder persistence ings of this Council of a motion of this kind; and in doing so I wish only to remind the hon.
debates that Members of the lengthy on this took place only quite recently subject.· On the other hand I would with them-and I like to sympathize am sure that other Members like myself feel that they deserve some sym.pathy--because ed to discuss at all but are they are not familiar being guided either by their own morals or what was told to them by other people.

hon.
hon.

Members have forgotten that the question by the Intoxicating of which are Ordinance, many and varied and the conditions of which are also many and varied, and the penalties attached to those condi­ tions are also many and varied.

I do to deal with that at any not propose just to refer to the length.
107, an<l Chapter concerned, Ordinance to the various invite their attention provision intoxicating liquor, them and make them change their trade is controlled Liquor Licensing In the first place those as that may suffice the provisions with the sale of of the spirit s dealing I propose 857 Motion- i8 0C'.J'OBER, 1944.

Spirit Shop Hours 8�8 but it is myself by to-day.

in the case of up as moralists nor in that have with anyone.
I would by that there ii:; I aim not only amused So much has been said amount of restriction of bad trade or othenvise unless shops has fallen views.

But I would :rather confine my remarks to the motion as it appears in Council First of all I would describe the motion as one worthy of no considera­ tion.

It has no merit neither for those who set themselves otherwise.
about curbing the drinking of the people on the one hand, and yet in the same breath it is said that the people can drink in their clubs or in their homes and in that way there will be no interference like to say this is my experience not only of rum but several other commodities: the use of it you encourage the use of it in many other directions and, I suggest, illicit be far more injurious whom the hon.

MemberH of th i:-3 Council are trying to protect.

Would hon.
Would hon.

Members like to see rum not being but in brothels in sold in rumshops the City to a larger extent than is being done to-day?

they will not like to see that, because consumption as far more than the hon.

Seconder of the motion even in his .

:-peech can illustrate.

consider applications spirit shops having fallen out either on account and grant such licences, unable to issue a new licence the number of spirit below the minimum prescribed Order in Council.

Therefore a certain way.


When I hear that proprietors asked for this motion to be bronght to this Council I may express but, perhaps, saying I am somewhat surprised, because I venture know the spirit trade in Georgetown and this motion deals in particular, with the trade in particularly Georgetown As and New Amsterdam.

a matter of fact I think I can claim to have a knowledge trade in the entire Colony, barring the Rupununi where I have not been.
Coming back to Georgetown positive as I stand here that the hours stated in the motion are not acceptable in Georg.etown.

!

happen to be one of those• -if I have the slightest imotion of this kind will go through I will move amendments to th,� different days hours and different and by the time we are through it will be found that, perhaps, the question not be the best thing to do.
you not only encourage ils use but also in a way that ·.vill to the 42 spirit dealers for myself-·­ The minute you restrict of rum in those places of fixing the hours will I ventun.

to suggest to the people of the spirit the dangers to suggest Speaking arising out of the belief that I that a I am proprietors Ordinance.
I to go back If I may be permitted point, although I said I to one little will not refer much to the Intoxi­ cating Liquor Licensing wish to refer, and I think I ought to do so, to the restriction in the for spirit shops.

number of licences are not issued merely These licences being made to the Dis­ on application for permission to trict Commissioner is not the case at all.

sell rum.
sell rum.

That there is a Board Under the Ordinance to which application has to be made, and since some years ago by an Order in Council shops in an area is limited, the Board has no power whatever to that number.

The Board may increase the actual number of spirit The legislation that was recently on the question the number of hours and one would these two hon.
Members, of Unions, representatives passed restricted of work of an employee, have expected as accredited to come to this Council of the number of hours of work that the employees their Unions should perform, realize a very bad case because the number of passed limits legislation working hours to forty-four (44) per week and, I think, eight (8) hours a day with a half day off during the week.
That is how the forty-fou but they if they do that they will have who are members of the recent r hours 859 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Spirit Shop Hours 860 at.

Many employer�, satisfied a week is arrived it is true, had to make a good deal of calculations time-table ees can get what is entitled The hon.

Membe,rs in order to have a proper set up so that their employ­ to them.

ha e not come to about that as they are .


this Council evidently have the employees had their fair due, but rather they think they should bri'llg this matter up from the moral angle.

what is the difference being drunk in a spirit who is drunk in a mushroom club in the City or one who is drunk for that matter in the Georgetown Cricket I cannot see the difference any of those men.

They are all drunk and, what is more, they all have to get home because any of the respectable .
town have accommodation I do not know that clubs in George- between a man shop and one I do not know Club.

between flavoured and Government by all me;rns and so on, but at a club you from a little strength methy­ can get anything with some good lated spirits and of that spirits rum, or a mixture some of the rum that is made from cane­ j uice, to good rum.

If that is the sort of thing this Council would like to encourage, go ahead.

But I do not know that these hours will suit eve-rybody.
Certainly they do not suit my own business.

I feel that this motion has any chance I am afraid this Council, of passing I would have to move certain ments to the hours proposed.

make no difference Move-r read from a pape,r vvhich was reproduced amend­ It will to me.

The hon.

an extract three times.

If The PRESIDENT: I think it was the hon.

Seconder!

between a and you cannot that.

But this is a comparison for resi­ dence.

Those who get drunk there have to get home the best way they can.
So I do not see the difference man being drunk in a spirit shop, or a club, or at home.

To my mind he is the same drunkard prevent I would like to make, and it is all over the City.

Here you have a spirit shop at one corner and a mushroom club on the opposite I use the wol'd "mushroom'' I regret to say that some of these by some clubs are fostered, that to the request of the signatories was made to the hon.

the Fifth Nomi­ nated Member (Mr. Critchlow).


Closing the shop in the day at 1:� as all they o'clock do is to transfer the stock from the shop to the club run by John James and, what is more, make a little more profit on it.

I speak from persona) experience.

makes no difference, side of the street.

advisably.

perhaps, Mr. de AGUIAR: It was reproduced I and the to say a Chief Justice in It might have been a gocd if the hon.
Member could at least three times, that which hu attempted Bermuda said about the number ,.,f cases to be tried at a session 1·easons I have not heard th�refor.

any of our Judges saying the samf: thing here; so I do not see the com­ parison.

cumparison have at the same time cited one of our Judges making a similar comment.

a comment of that kind do not recall not having been made� certainly within recent times.

I have heard comments arson etc.

That does not arise in this particular case.


I wish to make it perfectly that although proprietor proprietors is a restriction I cannot see why,-and I use person.

the word "I" very forcibly-I can go to my club and have a drink at 8 or H or at night and-I was going to 10 o'clock say the hon.

Mover and Seconder hut they are non-drinkers.

cle..ar I am a spiirit shop for the at all.


I think that this of a of the liberty I am not speaking on other matters, has to conform to certain We all know what can be donB with rum.

In the spirit shop the proprietor laws.

The Club owner has to do so just the same, but for some reaRcn he is very seldom caught.

proprieto1· has to sell rum at a certain drink!

The Rhop Mr. CRITCHLOW: I do have a 861 Motion- 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Spirit Shop Hours 86�� , matters.

You is drunk?


I have the people off the a seditious article Mr. de AGUIAR: I do not see why a man is not to be allowed to have he has to get a drink merely because his drink from a spirit shop.-Talking about removing streets, if you are going to do that, let us start at once to clean the street::; close down the close the cinemas,, and stop them from newspapers publishing seditious cannot start by closing the spirit shops.

That is not cleaning the streets at niiht.


Is it sug'gested that the man who publishes in a newspaper never heard that.

Yet there are numbers of seditious articles Colony that we know of, and libellous articles are printed I have never heard that in my Hfe.

Even if they were drunk-let us assume tha:t they were drunk-I am positive they could not put that up a:1 because a defence-that the influence of liquor they did not know what they were doing.

I am one who has always held the view that is no excuse.
drunkenness speaking from personal I think that a man who is drunk knows very well what he does.

My experience is that such people know their limit and get home long before the spirit shop closes.

Perhaps I am experience, but too.

Is it suggested that thf;y by people who are drunk'?

printed in this they were under support Surely that and conscientiously to the shift system as If it were it.

Members I am quite sure that this is not a step in the right direction.
I would certainly have referred not working sati,sfactorily.

cannot be true.

It was only introduced on the 1st of this month.

Can any Member say honestly that the shift system has not worked?

I as a proprietor because I certainly that it is not workmg suggestion To whom it is not work­ satisfactorily.

?

Is it not working ing satisfactorily satisfactorily to the employer?

He was forced to adopt it by law.

Is it not working satisfactorily cannot say that it has only just been introdur,ed.
refuse to accept the to the employee have told it if they wish) that my or the public?.

In what way is it not satisfactorily?

workirug I have the and shift system in my own business I make the statement may (Members believe employees me that when they go off at 12 to return at 4 p.m. they do not know what to do during the interval.

to do with that; their hours were fixed and they had to abide by them.
Perhaps that is where the system is but this mot.ion does unsatisfactory, it says:- not remedy it because I told them that I had nothing "(a) That every day with the Day, and provided Christmas and as otherwise of Sundays.
exception Good Friday, in this resolution read:-8.30 7 p.m.'' a.m. to 12.30 p.m.-3 p.m. to to be amended to would would Closing the rumshops of fact about what happened That means that employees have to leave at 12.30 and return to work at 3 p.m. For myself I would want to open at 9 a.m., close at 11, open at 4 p.m. and close at 9 p.m. Of course that would not keep people off the streets.

not koop people off the streets.

I am amused when I hear attempts being made to educate the young view.

The hon.
The hon.

with the moralist Member quoted what happened in Bermuda.

I would like to make a statement in the United States of America.

I have the United States several visited times, and it is no reflection on the people of that country.

or the Government I during was there before prohibition, When prohi1bition and after prohibition.

I was there before prohibition, I got a drink when I wanted one.
During prohibition I did not have to go any­ where for it because after a time I walked about with my own hip flask.

It could be handed to you by your lady friend or any kind of friend.

It was the fashion during prohibition, has changed.

get a drink there.

Are we going to educate with hip flasks in their pockets, but even that time Now it is much easier to our young people to walk abr,ut to walk with a hip flask and 863 Motion- LEGISLATIVE .

COUNCIL.
COUNCIL.

Spirit Skop J1 owrs 864 to rush into a rumshop at five minutes to seven in the evening, hip flasks down and asked that they up for the night?

be filled put their What Members do not seem to appre­ shop is spirit general I meet them Nine times out of about the Govem­ ciate is that the average the poor man's club.

I visit my shops very often for experience.

and hear them talking.

ten they are talking ment,, about Members of this Council, and things of that kind.

In short they discuss rumshops .


counter.

fellow wants to go to a spirit goes into a private afternoon sits down there with his "cut down".

Pe-0ple of that sort do not harm any­ body.

I have a shop in what some Members may regard as one of the bad districts of the City, but I do not think the Police can record any misbehaviour in that area.

topics of the day.

The do not only sell rum over the That is only done!

to the odd who is in a hurry.


The man who shop in the room and they could not afford to but if the trade in 24 hours a day I am sure they would have put Why some of those places had to close was because keep open longer, Water Street demanded opening up a case to Government of the shift system would have had to consider parlours allowed midni-ght?

4 p.m.?

on the ba.3is and Government it.


Why are Why don't we close them at to remain open until spe�),k­ I say As far as I am concerned, the motion as it stands.

It haf: ing1 as a Member of this Council that I regret that I shall be unable to support not even my sympathy, to vote against the motion might receive consideration by moving the following ments:- I will put myself in order and I shall have it.
But as it seems tha,t some kind of amend­ "That items (a), (b) and (c) be deleted hours of opening and the following substitute d therefor;- On Mondays ..... 9 a.m. to 12 noon-·'J p.m. to 8.30 p.m. is only a myth, a camouflage, On Tuesdays ..... 5 p.m. to 9.30 p.m. .10 a.m. to 12 noon-- This attempt to set up moral would be the freedom to restrict standards and I say that Government ill advised We hear a lot abol.ilt of the people.
freedom of speech, freedom from .fear and freedom from want, and we want to drink.

Why to restrict their freedom or in writing don't we restrict them Very often they write what speaking?

they do not know anythin1g about.

Thi3 Government could in restricting should work.


hours employees has gone as far as it the number of On Wednesday ..... .3 p.m. to 10 p.m. On Thursdays ...... 4 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. 9 a.m. to 12 noon - On Fridays ...... to 9.30 p.m. 9 a.m. to 12 noon--5 p.m. On Saturdays ..... .12 noon to 2 p.m.-- 4 p.m. to 10.30 p.m." The PRESIDENT: T'his Council.

Mr. de AGUIAR: This Cou�cil has gone as far as it could in restricting the number of hours.
Now an attempt is being made to restrict the number of hours business may open premises and remain open.

What strikes me as peculiar who talk about having three shifts-i4 hours a day-and suggest that we should become industrialized like ocher countries and find work for the people.

is that these are the Members I have suggested hours which may but I cannot s..iy the hours I have .iust I do hope that perhaps si.

:.it certain rumshops to all.


that they would be acceptable If we are trying to fix hours it seems to me that I am quite in order in suggesting mentioned.

those hon.

Members who have spoken on the motion so far, and even those who will follow, I have stated, spirit trade is by its very nature a re.stricted hours an employee places is already prescribed therefore will agree with what and that is that th1.
; trade; that the number of by law, in that must work in thl)se is required no relief 865 Motio� 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Spirit Shop Hours 866 whether the hon.

in this work.

I speak for myself and lastly, hours or mine are accepted direction, Member's there is bound to be a reduction in the number of people who are at present engaged now and say that as a result of the shift system I had to employ more people, but the minute the present hours are reduced I will have but to send them away.
no alternative The suggested hours would provide an 8-hour day and I would have no use who are now for the extra people I am sure that employed.

that is :he position of a number of propriei;ors who have also adopted the shift system.

Mr. FERREIRA: I would first to Members trunk line service you will I telephoned and got the information of all ask that copies of the Order of the Day be supplied before meetings of the Council.

The was raised quite recently and question I raise it again.
It is true that on this occasion the Clerk of the Council but if Your Excellency is I wanted, aware of what takes place on the telephone realize it takes a day to get a call through to Georgetown.

me two hours.

I am suggesting th�:1.t of Members we for the convenience should receive copies of the Order of the Day at least three days before the suggest that I would further meeting.

when the Order of the Day is being sent to the printers could be sent to Members of the Council.
that there are occasions when On this occasion it took typewritten copies The PRESIDENT: Every possible to Members.

At the last I stated that step is being taken now to get the information meeting of this Council we would meet on Wednesday for the sole purpose of discussing these motions.

I then got the Order Paper out to Members on Monday morning, as soon as it was received printers.

sent at the last meeting were meeting on Wednesday for the from the Every Member who was pre­ knew that we motions.
remarks this motion and I will bear the in mind.

I hav•:!

purpose of discussing other private hon.

Member's discussed already acting Colonial Secretary.

agree that Members should have the Order Paper or information matters cuss at the earliest which they are going to dis­ th� matter with the possible about time.

I entirely Mr. FERREIRA: With regard to the mover mentioned the motion itself both by that he had been approached and emplo'yees.
employers Surely the employers would have the remedy in their own hands.

If they want to keep their premises day it is entirely In fact some of them are already that, and as regards the employees they are already the 1st of this month.

open for eight hours a open to them to do so.

provided for as from doing so-c::dler!

If hotels.


hours it would really more in terms of clubs, this too from the mover that the social wel­ to can be found outside hotels and clubs which should be under the close of the Police Department.
I gathered and the seconder fare problem was really the object of to the but when I listened the motion, it struck me that he was seconder talking boarding houses, and doubtful So far as I am aware, the type of person referred those doubtful I suggest scrutiny we accepted fixed mean that the public and the poor man would have to go to the various mush- 1·oom clubs and pay possibly twice, the price he would pay for his liquor in the spirit only result would be to increase price to the consuming consequently trader of honest trade.
There can be no doubt about it that throughout the world, and even in Germany, are drowning much more in recent times than they did a few years back.

I do not see the how we can attempt liberty of the subject man wants to have a drink surely he is entitled shops.

In other words the the public and to restrict in this way.

If a people in liqucr their sorrows to deprive to have it.

the legitimate 867 Motion- LEG ISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Spirit Shop Hours 8G8 station localities the limiting or the bus park.
to the seconder shops but the clubs of this Council.

I boarding houses and The hours suggested the entire liquor trade, and me that this motion should I do not see how such a motio'1 will not suit n, such in Georgetow certain aE the railway When we are discussing of the sale of liquor we have to consider not only the spirit and doubtful hotels.

can be accepted.

is increasing of Berbice.

tc.· have bush rum sold at dances in New Amsterdam.
that a motion of this kind, if adopted, would further increase rum.

I ask hon.

Members not to support the motion.

The sale of bush rum rapidly in the County It is quite a common thing convince have the support would suggest of the motion that there are other and far better ways of protecting the morals of the younger people of the Colony than by closing in the evening.

This is not the way to save the boys and girls of this or any othE-)r City.
I have not known of one instance ruined through the rumshops City.

They are ruined by other means.

If the hon.

Member has a sincere of a certain there are many avenues and I suggest class I can assure him that open to him, in which a boy or a girl vrns desire to save the young peopie that he try them.
the sale of bush to suggest rumshops I venture of the at 7 o'clock by the After of drink but within a surprise enforced remarked or imagine the control spineless the liberty by the Police and movement by this motion.

As has been rightl� of the ColoTiy.

that there is no need Mrr.
KING: I have very little and protection so far as hours I view with alarm the which are being placed day of and which must affect tc a of the capacity the earning to say except to express that only a few months ago this matter was dis­ cussed by the Council was given to employees of work are concerned, few months of that being done we ha.ve a motion which, to a great extent, restricts the subject, great extent rumshop proprietors Personally restrictions after day on the liberty -the liberty go on at this rate we will have obtain licences speak.
I deprecate business ference or advantag tion of the community.

the motion attempts with the rights not only of the man in the streets est in this Colony.

hon.

Member for Central Demerara (Mr. de Aguiar), is so rigidly Department V\- hatever to impose further restric­ tions suggested all we must not consider that the people of this Colony are so weak-willed, we have to make legislation them doing something is wrong.
If a man does not want to drink he does not have to, and if he wants to drink the closing of rumshops at 7 o'clock not going to prevent ing.

If a man wants to get drunk I can assure the hon.

mover and second­ er that this somewhat pusillanimous motion is not going to prevent him, and he would get drunk even if the rumshops were not open at all.

After a time it becomes· that he would do anything desire or appetite.

kind is not going to assist people of that type.


such a disease to fulfil his A motion of thic;; unless and until such inter­ a scandal of the subiect If we to to move, breathe and with but of a ve1·y lar,ge vested inter­ e being taken of any sec­ of his mo�ements.
interference In this instance to interfere is essential him from drink­ or stupid that which we feel to prevent to prevent at night is Unfortunately I was not in my seat when the mover of the motion spoke, but I was here when the seconder spoke.
I listened very �arefully heard nothing beyond the grounds of morality which cQuld and social welfare but I is not going to save the morals of the young people of Georgetown Amsterdam, consider and New and if that is so then I it a restriction of the liberty A motion of this kind, in my opinion, 869 Motion- 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Spirit Shop Hours 870 it certainly As I have ns are being to insult we are going To me it is a some­ the rumshops.
Personally, There are far better to the extent of saying is no need whatever the population and, therefore, them by closing the rnm­ many restrictio on the people of the City and Try to persuade to alter thefr on life.

Educate them.

Culti­ of_ the subject.

will not have my support.

�aid before, imposed elsewhere.

There for this Council of this City and of the town of New Amsterdam that they are unable to take care of themselves to protect sh ops at 7 o'clock.
what silly way to help people to help themselves.

other ways.

You are not going to keep the young people off the street by closing them to go elsewhere, outlook vate their minds to a higher standard of living.

That is my way of think­ ing to save the people of this City, the young people.

especially certain to my personal a tremendous amount of good.

Th!

:tt is the kind of movement we want all not this silly idea through of closing The salvation has been too long delayed.
start when they are young to try to keep them off the street before they get to the rumshop when it is too late If I thought there was any chance of saving the morals of the young peorle of the City by closing would have given my utmost supporu to any motion for that purpose.

But I have been unable to find any sugges­ tion in the speech made by the hrrn.

Seconder to convince motion will benefit.


There are in this City which, knowledge, are doing of these wayward youths the rumshops movements me that this the Colony; the rumshops I tho::;e people.

at 7 o'clock.

We mm,t After for days and the question and within a few months if this sort of thing happens.

we sat in solemn conclave days considering passed legislation, you get a motion trying to amend, or or alter it.
If this motion is abridge, passed we would get motions from all over the Colony in this Council tbat the hours of opening of the rumshops tricts be altered ence of the people of those districts.

in the various dis­ to suit the conveni­ and closing asking The PRESIDENT: The hon.
l'Vlem­ in his infer­ when the Bill was passed who Sir Gordon Lethem, ber is not quite correct ence, because His Excellency was in the Chair, gave an undertaking, which in effect influenced Members in agreeing a motion would be moved subsequently to amend the hours.

It is not qcdte correct the amendment passed.

The inference correct.

to say hon.

Members m•Jve<l after the Bill had b.�')n some of the to the Bill, th::tt is not qnite that where consideration that.

was given.
was given.

I do feel, Mr. KING: I do not remember Perhaps I was not in my seat when that undertaking however, been given, as I said before, lntion has been passed and it becomes after to amend the hours, necessary other procedure bringing cil and not as has been done in this case.

I have no desire to speak at any length.

in the motion before this Coun­ I shall vote against should be adopted and legis­ the motion.
has Mr. JACKSON: l am supporting For the sake of uniformity I would like to second the motion made by the hon.

Member for Central Demerara as regards a change of the hours.
I think, however, moreso to show this Council ho\v impossible Council sections _to this Council is; and you will get variou:-; of the Colony coming forward with similar rnotio11s he moved that motion motion before the the present 1 of this kind Perhaps it may snrprisc the motion nor the amendment, that the Ordinance r.either for I am satisfied should be given a fair chance before any motion or amendment is brought.

hon.
hon.

Members when I say that there if: decidedly in th1� less drunkenness City and in the Colony today than or twenty years ago.

there was fifteen (Voices: that I say it without tion, In.

the days gone by when there "Hear, hear!'')

When I say fear of contradic­ 871 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Spirit Shop Hours 872 Governmrnt to of this on life.

process to the mover a Bill to have established of drunkenness fixed hours in George­ matter and that England adopt,­ Hon.
Members will realize It gave the actual more latitude in 1921.

In.stead prohibitive hours hours, and on the streets due to or there were no societies in order to and was a great display misconduct drunkenness organizations reduce the amount of drunkenne,ss lead the young people into the paths of rectitude and virtue.

I want to of suggest, sir, that if the intentions are the hon.
Mover and his Seconder honest and they would like to see the morals of the young people improved., of start­ they mi:ght adopt the principle which g organizations ing and supportin will take the young people off the streets and give them a gcod outlook I would suggesti perhaps, that they should use and his seconder to each every effort to place adjacent rumshop an organization like th\3 Band of Hope Society or the Temperance Society or to be called whatever name they like, and preach to the young people that instead of drinking liquors drink the soft beve,raiges or juices that they could produce for them.
If they working quiet­ have their organizations opposite ly, silently near the rumshops do a great deal from the motion which has been tabled.

I believe sideration hours was passed, and it will he madness to have those hours c'hanged now without a fair opportunity ing how that Ordinance been given.

I take it that the amend­ as in ment was only an afterthought, and I do not itself it is a bit ludicrous, think the mover and seconder are serious at all.
I think the motion should certainly be rejected by this Council.

should open as early as they do, but at the same time I find the motion so rigid that if it is carried will have to introduce these compulsory town and New Amsterdam and in every area which may be declared an urban area.

that England went through the same stages as this Colony in respect subject ed the reverse of having restricted they changed over to permitted and the system has worked and it is much more lasting.
proprietors or lessees fix their own hours in order to take advantage of local conditions.

English system is this: The .Aci:; says, no licensed shall open before a certain hour aml remain open all shall close for two hours during the but you must day at the same period, fix your own opening and closing and what time you will take your two hours off.

Anything like that I wiJl support at once.

Hon.

Members will recall that I served on that sub-Com­ mittee which struggled the shop hours.
We had meeti�g after meeting, petition hopeless everybody.

lesson and that was in the framework of a Bill do not try to be rigid but Looking back T give a little see in that Shop Ordinance the mis­ take was that it was too rigid.

Now we have petitions living in the river districts the hours.

We went too far and made it too rigid.

Can we not benefit from that experience motion?


or they may be ab le to more than they to fix anything to please We were taught one con­ that after very careful fixing the premises hour and none 8hall from all the people against deputation after petition, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I and beautifully with this preaent the Ordinance after a certain and it was quite spirituous worked having latitude.

they should manfullv expect of see­ to fix The that I am not speaking on behalf of Government.
may emphasize officially you said, sir, we are not bound one way or the other in this matter.

I am for in speaking in a little other Members too.

Firstly the motion has my sympathy.

I agre,e that it is absurd that these place� difficulty As If this motion, as proposed by the we are tied hon.

Mover, is carried down to fixed hours for every place in New Amsterdam and Georgetown, other urban areas.
I will support th<� motion willingly hours if they are not fixed and witbortt for the reduction of after deputation, 873 Motion- 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Spirit Shop Hours 87--1 The reason, of altering.

The hon.

any possibility Member for Central Demerara has moved an amendment.

He will be the last person to want that carried, nnd he wants me to move one to get him I out of the difficulty.

feel, hon.
feel, hon.

Members of this Council ar� being rushed is that they have not hacl an opportunity these hours suit the public.

I think we ought to have that opportunity.

We ought to be advised by the people who have had an opportunity to study the matter or, perhaps, studying move the following original it.
In view of that T beg to to find out whether resolution:- amendment to the know it without ''All the words after the words "rer.om­ therefor: and the following - ''His Excellency the Government mends to" be deleted substituted the Officer Administering that a Committee and report on the extent desirable which licensed premises may be open."
be appointed to consider to which it is the hours durir.g in urban areas to shorten The effect of that is to request you, e. or not and, a Committee to decide sir, to appoint whether the hours set out in the original motion are suitable if not, what hours are preferabl When we get that report we will know the facts we are working on.

At the moment hon.

Members cannot say whether these hours will suit the in Georgetown and licensed My point of view New Amsterdam.
is that it is impossible to have exactly the same hours to suit every single place.

It seems there should be some latitude given to every proprietor or lessee to suit local conditions.

ly to move the amendment.

for the1 hours to be fixed by him I beg formal­ premises The COLONIAL SECRETARY sec­ onded� Mr. de AGUIAR: Speaking on I would like- tbe amendment The PRESIDENT: Which amend- ment?

Mr. de AGUIAR: The one just to premises.


and harmless or one year's time, h< s fixed by this Council Ol.1 moved by the hon.

the Attorney-General It sounds very reasonable at first blush, and I am inclined agree with it, but what I have risen to say is this: It seems to me that if an amendment like that or a motion in that form comes up in the Council, say in six months' greater then perhaps it would receive support than it may receive today.
My reason for that is this: This is now being asked to suggest Council should to you, sir, that a Committee be formed to go into this question of the number of hours each day that these licensed premises should be open or the hours when they should be at the I think that is striking closed.
root of the whole thing to do that now, when the number of working hours per day for an employee been already the basis of the number of opening hours of these licensed It seems to me that to come_ back awl suggest an alteration - perhaps the may come back and say Committee that the opening hours at present existing there is are suitable quite a lot of argument for and g at the root of be strikin against-will wh�n we of the Council the decision have that Bill prescribing the maxi­ mum number of working hours as forty-four hours a day and not longer than foL!L· and a half ( 4!)
hours at one spell.

The whole thing was very carefol1y worked out, and if there is going to be Hny alteration there is bound to follow a number of consequential in the num­ ber of working hours of the employees.

What I am afraid, haps it may be found not so convenient to limit the number of hours in the way we have done in that last Bill.

I mention that, as there is a good dea.l of merit in the amendment the hon.

the Attorney-General.


reasonable, much better if the present system vvhich has been introduced given an opportunity here was to work say for moved by It sounds ( 44) per day and eight only I think it would be of the opening hours alterations sir, is this : Per­ because 875 Motion- LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Spirit Shop Hours 876 six months, and after that time then perhaps If the Committee years to report,· amendment.

we may follow his suggestion.


is going to take two the I would support Bill a�d suggests can raise the quest10n ch�nge of hours is to g.ive notice meeting lus10n at today's I have the honour, t�at the best way you in recrard to the 0£ reso­ of the Council.

to be, etc.''

Mr. CRITCHLOW: I heartily sup­ moved by the I am of the port the amendment hon.

the Attorney-General.

opinion that different areas should have different That is done in other parts of the world.
I do not know if I can reply to the remarks hours suitable made by hon.

Members.

to them.

The PRESIDENT: Yes, you can!

Mr. CR.JiTCHLOW: A cewtain hon.

to discuss I of Religion I did give such notice but we we·re then told to allow the Bill to pass and bring the matter up later.

So you can see that we were willing this matter long before the Bill was passed.

I say it is not fair to say that we sat down and said nothing.

wonder if those Ministers who supported gest that these hours be changed?
reply to many of the things that have been said I say, it is a great pity that some of the members of the Committee do not know what exists of the world.

I have travelled and in they have most places I have visited such restriction �losing us are silly too to sug­ In of licensed i� other parts premises.

for the opening and and a of the subject these hours.

Is it hon.
Is it hon.

Member said it i� a silly those I am a fair labour Member talked a lot about restriction and the liberty certain idea to restrict meant that the people of Trinidad a.re that their Spirit Shop Ordin­ so foolish ance provides that these shops must open from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. and from 4 p.m. to 6.30 p.m, on week days except when the hours are 10 a.m. Saturday to 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. to 7 p.m.?

rrhe hon.
rrhe hon.

the Attorney-General can tell this Council that in England the spirit shops open from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. -and from 5 p.m. to 10 p.m. Do you mean it is silly for them td restrict hours of opening?

man and look at both the employers' and Governiil1ent's have I would like to see the employers sufficient also.

Government must allow the Bill to pass and bring a motion with respect to the hours later.

I' do not want it to be said that we are not serious.
I was serious before the law was passed because I sat on a Committee sider this matter and two of us were but the for the ".µours and two against Chairman vote in favour of the other side, and the Bill was passed I sent a letter to Government received: time to sell their drinks had told us that we sides in this matter.
and this is the reply I gave his casting to con­ appointed before "27th July, 194t Sir-The Governor say that he has received the 2f?th July regarding the Spirit Shop has directed me to of y;our letitel· As regards the present hours we are and not goin,g to change the 44 hours working week.

I have walked around and talked with both employers and they have said there employees areas should be a law that certain should have different hours to others.
In Water Street after a certain hour the business such trade is transferred section town, much business night.

Am-an,gements fix the hours' so as to suit the propri­ etors in the different to another of the town.

Take Albouys­ is done there at can be made to places close down and areas.

to the Mr. DIAS: I have listened lengthy debate we have had.

I was in mo,ved bv favour of the amendment , but wha·t the hon.
the Attorney-General has struck me is this: If a committee is appointed to consider they may be exceeded sidered because Committee and report on the extent to which it is desirable which licensed may be o:pen."

I want to sugiest the hours during in urban areas that necessary the amendment be appointed to consider or it may be con­ to shorten to shorten these hours premises the hours, a reads: " ............ 877 Spirit Shop Hours 18 OCTOBER, 1944.
Rice Expansion Schemes 878 Attorney-Gener­ is to -consider wheth­ to the Committee otherwise if the Committee er the hours are desirable, then g seems to me the hon.the al should modify it a bit so as not to be misleading they may misinterpret Government.

does not consider the hours but they must consider whether it is desirable what extent.

I do not know if I marle myself clear.

the intention of I take it, Government they should shorten and, if so, to rrhe PRESIDENT: You have made clear.
I do not know whether yourself the hon.

Mover will accept that minor amendment.

but I felt it was The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It is I drafted it that I that the Committee should that the matter should receive and that we should get quite true when intended look for a reduction, important consideration more facts to go upon.

I a1greecl to amend the motion in order that the facts can be secured it to read "on the extent, if any, to which it is desirable to shorten the hours ............ for us.
I amend '' Mr. CRITCHLOW: I heg to sup­ port the amendment my motion.

and to withdraw Mr. de AGUIAR: I withdraw my The hon.

amendment.

original I have no other choice.

motion having withdrawn his, Mover of the The Attorney-General's motion was divided and the put, and the Council as follows:- voting resulted For: Messrs. Edun, King, Peer Bac­ chus, Percy C. Wight, Dias, Austin, de Aguiar, Critchlow, Colonial Treasurer, eral and the Colonial C. V. Wight, the the Attorney-Gen­ Secretary-12.
Against: Messrs. Ferreira, Roth, J�ckson and Jacob-4.

Motion passed.

ACCEPTANCE OF C.D.W.

FUNDS FOlt RICE EXPANSION SCHEMES.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: beg to move:- THAT, with reference to the Officer 1944, this Mes.<;age the Government's of the acceptance of the Colonial Devel­ Act, 1940, to meet the Administering No.
6 of the 2nd of August, Council approves funds provided under ment and Welfare cost of the following rice expansion schemes:- ...... Creek...... Crabwood Lots 63-74, Corentyn e Coast ...... .. .... ...... Weldaad, West Coast, ...... .. .... Berbice ...... $170,000 73,600 Mahaicony-Abary Perth Canal Mahaicony Anna Regina Rice Rice Mill... 42,600 275,000 18.000 20,000 ... Mill ...... .... .

...... .. .... 32,000 $632,000=£131,667 three should Hon.
lVIem-· Areas under the of those fnnds acceptanc� under which those are that on the completion Develop­ Act, and i.n particu­ The object of the motion is to record acceptance under the Colonial this Council's provided ment and Welfare lar to record the Council's of the condition·.s funds are being provided.

bers will see the three conditions stated in par.

4 of Message No.

6 of the 2nd August, 1944.


Those conditions of the works the areas involved be declared as Drainage Drainage and Irrigation secondly, declaration ance rates on a satisfactory basis be levied for the upkeep of the works, and, thirdly, ( and this is most.

important), that any private lands improved as a result of these works should contribute rates towards works.
The first of those condition8 which, of course, Council, when works of this characte out the areas become Declared Areas, and the second condition consequential r are carried Drainage is of areas annual mainten­ and agreed is well known in this that that as a result of such on the first.

The third by way of acreage Ordinance; the capital cost of these is an accepted principle 879' G.D. W. Funds for Ri4ce Expansion Schemes '880 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
private laid down that funds condition is, as ·Members are perhaps aware� one of the main features of the and Welfare Act Colonial Development passed by the IrrtPerial Parliament.

In that Act it is definitely money provided from Imperial to improve shall be subject ment that a portion the value of those lands resulting the expenditure of that money shall accrue to the general revenue Colony concerned.
stressed nccepted Boerasirie-Bonasika of the was in this Council when we the money provided lands in the Colony to such an arrange­ of the increase That condition in from scheme.

for the the money those conditions Members well known that the funds as a loan tentatively with regard to the arrange­ but is simple, is a matter _of some have been provided but as soon as action is taken to implement becomes a free grant.
Implementing two conditions the .first the third condition difficulty ment for taxing the increased value of the lands.

That is now a subject is being given very careful tion by Government.

by a Committee ship of the Commissioner Government, was made that a Central Committee should be set up to advise Government as to how that tax should be levied.

is a very difficult subject, ter is to be given careful consideration.
which considera­ It but the mat­ under the Chairman­ and urgent of Local It was considered and a recommendation of labour, mateei.a]s as possible facilities additional food production Mem­ -were first con­ idea was to g·et as available Expansion .

Schemes ceived the original quickly as possible land for increasing for the West Indies generally.
that in 1942 condi­ bers will remember Hons became very difficult as re·gards food supply, and we were asked to do what we could as urgently t0 increase for rice produc­ tion.

Members know very well that we have not gone ahead very quickly.

Through shortage and so on these schemes are taking rather longer to come into being than we had hoped.

Nevertheless, what has developed out of it is this: that they are now an important planning future of the rice industry.
Members have read those patches they will note that they involve drainage schemes covering some 30,000 acres of new land which will be available and the improvement to the extent of another acres.

Looking at the figures them­ selves Members will see that in addi­ tion to the amount stated in thi$ motion ($632,000) have since gone forward for even larger schemes.
step in post-war of the economic land of existing 2_.000 or 3,000 in respect If des­ further applications for ri.ce cultivation., the scope of these Rice Expansion notice of the Council In the Message it is stated but I should like to to bring to the I have said that the object of the motion is to put these things on record in this Council, take this opportunity general and character Schemes.

that the Governor series of despatches of State forwarding for free grants and so on.
I took the of the opportunity to lay printed copies of those Council and I hope Members will despatches, have some opportunity to read them and to study, th�m.

When these Rice at the last meeting has addressed to the Secr.eta:ry applications approved of have by the Secretary scheme, for has been One other drainage scheme is the Bloomfield-Whim scheme for $96,000.
The other very large schemes which have not yet been finally State, but for which applications are the Mahaicony­ gone forward, Abary rice cultivation which a grant of $302,000 asked, and the scheme for the provision of mechanical $324,000 Members know that Government already initiated schemes.

That was done with the con­ sent of the Secretary and the formal action in asking for grants is taking place now that we know some­ thing of the actual cost.

All those which figures has been asked.


Of conrse of applications action on these equipment in respect of State, for which has a -- 881 C.D.W.

FU,nds for 18 0C'.

;l'OBER, 1944.

Rice Expansion Schemes 88� gone forward total no less In addition to that have already than $1,300,000.

we have sent forward applications to meet the cost of a new central mill which will be not less than $418,000.

So that altogethe embraced been laid in Council diture of nearly $1,800,000.
will see that these schemes are very expensive, ant step in the planning war situation in respect industry.

which have call for an expen­ for the post­ of the ri.ce in the despatches and they are a very import­ Members r the schemes In one of the despatches three things of the major the Mahaicony-Abary out as being necessary.

It and apart from the drain­ and in those The most important scheme are pointed is said that we want proper drained land; we want mechani­ and irrigated and proper milling.
All cal equipment those three factors have been dealt with in those applications schemefl.

of all is, of course, scheme.

That is a very large scheme indeed.

It covers an area of some 12,000 acres, age works what is planned there is the actual cultivation portion of that land by mechanical means.

Members will see in the des­ that during this year work has patches already started, land have already cultivation reaping is now taking place.
Some Members have had the advantage of 1g that place visitin been most favourably is going on.

I do hope that opportun­ ity will be taken as soon as possible by all Members of the Council.

I will not say more about it because I feel sure some other Member will say some.­ thing about it.

and 2,500 acres of that been brought under and, I think, have impressed by what by mechanical means, and as a Board of him made by a local artist.

I think, did no justice has given an immense amount of his time.
I think the rice industry owes him a debt of gratitude for the work he bas accomplished The in this respect.

members of the Rice Marketing paid Mr. Seaford a rather humorous just before he left the compliment Colony.

They wanted to express to of his good him their appreciation work and had what is described portrait That portrait, to Mr. Seaford's ertheless Board had the picture presented expressing he had done.
I merely mention passing, down on record that I personally, and I feel sure the Government, is grateful to Mr. Seaford he has done in connection schemes.

motion.

it to him with a letter of what their appreciation that in but I do want it to go ftev­ classic it looked like him, so the framed and with these move the for the immense work I now formally features, Mr. deAGUIAR seconded.

Mr. PERCY C. WIGHT: I think These The odour that in the Mahaicony to put it on record.
We have good deal of this several It district.

to engineers with but to be on the East Coast on to see how this motion ·is rather belated.

practically spent a money and we are now taking the opportunity schemes have been proceeded I happened Sunday and was surprised the sea water was flooding estates is worth while sending see what is happening.

comes from the dead fish caused by the' sea water getting water trenches authoritatively there myself.
This Council of money for the digging Dutch canal at Sarah.

It was dug by an old friend of mine some years ago but nothing further has been done.

All we have been told is that there is no labour and no materials are available.

are shovels and that kind of thing.

I took Mr. Case and Mr. Seaford time ago to se� the place.

They saw into the fresh I speak voted a sum of the old The only materials I own property is terrible.
required because some I just want to close b y paying 3 to the man who, I think, is the of all this.

He is not here tribute originator today.

I refer to ford ..

He has done an immense amount of work in connection with these schemes.

He has done it voluntarily �nd freely, remuneration, the hon.

Mr. Sea­ without and 883 Mr. Lempriere's Death LEGISLATIVE CpUNCIL.

Rice Expansion Schemes 881!


tolerant and sympathetic, and in my opinion, which I am sure is shared the Government Service, throughout his death will be deplored.

I think this Council would like to ·express its very deep regret and offer its deep sympathy to his widow, and incidentally clergyman to his brother in this Colony.
who is a Mr. de AGUIAR: With your sir, I should like on behalf to the lamentable death of We in this Council permission, of the Unofficial Members of this Council to associate myself with the remarks you have just made with reference Mr. Lempriere.

have always regarded him as a very energetic officer at all times was willing to give the best he could in the service of thi� Government.

around this table this afternoon grieved would wish that a letter be sent to his widow and relatives.
I am sure that all of us feel ove,r his sudden demise and and painstaking who of sym�athy ACCEPTANCE OF C.D.W.

FUNDS .FOR RICE EXPANSION SCHEMES.

The PRESIDENT: We will now with the Order of the Day.

continue animals walking water.

The conditions are appalling I must ask for some explanation delay in carrying work.
up to their knees in and of the out that little bit of of like $18,000 were put up at the Post We were given an estimate which I think something but the work is went up to $20,000, still hanging fire.

I was told on Sun­ day by some people in the di strict that notices Office intimating that labour was required.

One of the proprietors is willing to do the work· provided Government money with a small rate of interest.

I observed that concrete piles have been put down to the width of the old Dutch canal.
That work was done in 1948, but up to to-day nothing further has been done.

I suggest that the Engineers asked to make a report on the matter.

unde,rtakes to return hisi of the district should be The drainage work at Springhall labour Shovel has not been done.

If necessary, can be brought to the district.

work is the only work people are prepared to undertake because they are handsomely paid for it.
I am not going to criticize Abary scheme because the work done is undoubtedly With respect to the laying dowp.

of __ the machinery to Mr. Seaford.

I would like to be assured that the work is going to be of material benefit classes due credit should be given of people.

to the poorer the Mahaicony­ very satisfactory.

Your Excellency's with this matter.

which are printed Pape-r No.


21 I Mr. JACOB: I was very glad when the debate on this motion was deferred last week so that Members might read the despatches as Legislative Council of 1944.

Since the adjournment read with interest Message No.
6, the despatches, and several other relevant papers in connection I want to ,say at the outset that I suppo,rt mos heartily of the funds provided under th Colonial Development and Welfare Ac to meet the cost of the schemes, bu not on the terms and conditions se out _in the Message.

I think we are al grateful getting from and Welfare Fund but I am sorry t say, looking for the help we have beer at the expenditure the Colonial Developmen o this motion for the acceptance DEATH OF THE COLONIAL AUDITOR.
The PRESIDENT: I have Borne to the the Colonial Before I came into Council I knew that � Mr. was of very sad news to announce Council.

this afternoon Lempriere, very gravely Medical Services message intimating 2 o'clock this Mr. Lempriere ill, and the Director has just sent me a was a very able afternoon.

that he died at Auditor, officer, he was a very helpful , important officer.

He wa;_; and what is equally 885 C.D.

W. Funds for i8 OCTOBER, 1944.


Rice Expansion Schemes 88t3 schemes .several that in my opinion cent.

of that expenditur definitely over a period of years more than 50 per e has been wasted and mis-spent.

I am not going to detain the Message at $275,000.

schemes.
to increase the I w1ll concentrate I believe-with the extent of millions of too long to-day by speaking of State for the Colonies as measures of rice in British Guiana Council on several my remarks on the Mahaicony-Abary scheme which is put down in Your Excellency's These sums have been given to this Colony-to dollars, the object, as stated in the first paragraph of the Message, that these schemes should be "initiated at the request of the Secretary specifically p1·oduction in the endeavour to provide for the requirements of the British West Indian Colonies.''
That is a very good thing.

It is what this Colony had been hoping for for a very long time.

It is v.rhat every inhabitant wanted-some any other industry footing.

We are' all grateful to the Secretary of State for this help.

More than that-we are grateful for the money given to us from tim to time, but I for one cannot say that these sums of money have been properly spent.
The schemes have been badly designed, the expenditure properly supervised, have not been properly has not been and the works carried out.

on a sound economic real help to put rice or of the Colony wi.th that whenever I .

to that later on.

I wish to looked up what I said on that occasion I will .refer assure the Council speak here I speak on matters which I am familiar, and if I aim not familiar with any matter I say so.

I am going to speak very frankly and freely on the Mahaicony-Abary scheme.
I have said before that there was not prope,r supervision, was not properly Excellency things perhaps you will enquire as to how many persons supervised the work before your advent to the Colony, and vvhat happened to one gentleman who suddenly left the Colony.

I refer to one of the ,Chief Engineers.

These things are not all made known to Gov­ ernment, ment take cognizance listen to what Members have to say.

the expenditure controlled.


If Your and it is well that Govern­ is not aware of those of them and I visited the Mahaicony-Abary on the work that is nrot taking the right and spoke to over 50 scheme on two occasions at least.

100 persons was goinig on.

I think the rice ind us­ try was started years ago, and it is indeed gratifying at this stage to learn that Government is taking the right step.

It is never too late to attempt to do the right thing.

We are now told that we are taking the right step.


I am sorry to say that, Government step, and if hon.

Members would be frank and would speak as freely as I do they would tell Government so.

It is time this Government �-tep, see that Imperial aJJy wasted.

The hon.

Member for Georgetown re.marks.

followed understand means.

Private taxed in accordance of Your Excellency�s says: him very closely, what the hon.
Member lands are going to be I do not know if Members but I cannot with paragraph Message which funds are not liter­ and it is time this Government Central made certain take the right 4 " ............

The Secretary of State has notified the Governor that approval is subject to acceptance that (a) the of the conditions T!he PRESIDENT: I would like t(' ask the hon.

Member whether he has personally Abary scheme?

seen the 1\Iahaicony­ Mr. JACOB: I speak from personal knowledge .
The PRESIDENT: the Mahaicony-Abary scheme?

Have you seen Mr. JACOB: I have seen it twice.

I took the trouble this morning to ask for the Hansard report of the debate of the 18th March, 1942, when the original resolution was pas:Sed, and I 887 C.D.W.

Funds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.


Rice Expansion Schemes 888 should Ordinance ed declai· be created and areas under the Drainage areas involved drainage Irrigation maintenance agreed basis, improved should ,contribute age rates towards improvement and (c) any private annual acre­ cost of such on an rates should be levied lands 1940, (b) annual the capital ...... _,, to the par­ page 6f the debate.

Govern­ to see that ders why the Colony is not in a state of chaos.
I cannot re.fer ticular ment does not worry itself and ,is not con­ the debates are printed by cerned with what Members elected the people say in this Council.

What I said then was this at the meeting of the Council of March 18th, 1942: every pro­ one-half cost.

When prac­ Board has not got the Is this Government not It is clear that if this Council of those conditions approves prietor has to pay acreage rates towards the capital tically of that money is wasted what will happen?
That has happened to nearly every scheme I know, and that is why most of the schemes cannot bear the annual main­ tenance rates.

They are badly designed.

aware of the fact that the Drainage and Irrigation of the people concerned?

confidence still unaware of Js this Government the fact?

Will this Government con­ tjnue to close its eyes and say it ha::; the right to govern?

What I say is, continue with your methods and you will find the production any other product go down.
It has gone down, but you con­ tinue to say production say the Drainage has not the confidence community certain members fidence of Government.

paid tribute ment has paid tribute But let Government and see what the people say about the Drainage of the entire but has the confidence to the Chairman.

take the newspapers I Boa.rd and Irrigation of­ con­ has and Irrigation and the implicit has increased.

for that matter wi11 to its members; Gove1;n­ Government of rice and Board.
As regards (ib) I am saying that scheme is badly rates and the maintenance the Mahaicony-Abary designed and, I am sure, the will be tremendous people will not be able to pay.

In 1942 I made a statement- are the debates it has not been found prac­ not printed; to print the tical for Gove,rnment debates.

with what has happened This Government such a slipshod does its work in manner that one wen- Government is not concerned in the past.

the dif­ "One hon.
the dif­ "One hon.

Member mentioned in getting labour at reaping­ ficulty time.

That is due to the fact that there are no dams, no means of transportation and even at the last Autumn crop of bags of padi thousands and thousands remained through lack in the ricefields of proper transportation facilities, roads and lack of labour.

Ii think that is well known to one hon.


:I.v.lember of this who is a member of the Com- Council, " mittee ........... suitable That is what I said about the etc., and method of transportation Government does not choose to worry about that.

You have the river and you have a set of boats and launches and so these will do the work.

Bitt to say: these have failed.


I continued "I have listened with considerable growers Board asking interest over the to the speech delivered radio -.· and I have also read it in the Press - by the Secretary of the Ric� Marketing rice and stating to increase that Government to plant intends acres.''

production by 40,000 I gave a lot of figures.

T'oday l hear the hon.

mover say 30,000 acres of new land will be taken in.
W h e t h e r that refers to the entire Colony or to the Mahaicony­ Abary scheme I cannot say.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: I involved in the places said the acreage dealt with in the despatches approximately figure is 29,337 acres of new land drained and irrigated was improvement of land, not new land.

and also there in 2,618 acres 30,000 acre-a.

The actual was Mr. JACOB: What I would like to get at is the actual area that is going to be put under rice I have read the despatches (Legisla- cultivation.
889 C.D.W.

Funds for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Rice Expansion Schem,es 890 1943, and Paper No.

21 of 1944) and to the hon.

Mover and but I definite.

I have tive Council I have listened reiad all other re,levant papers, cannot get anything seen a vague statement of 1943 by His ExceHency the Governor, Sir Gordon Lethem, given in May, 1 �H4, and a vaguer statement than that I have never read.

On page 12 of that Review this is what is recorded under Rice: dated 26th November, Despatch No.
137 dated 26th July • 1944.

Despatch No.

149 dated 4th August, lency.

Frankly I do not want to say anything I have enumerated, refer to Despatch in paragraph "In April, 1942, during the course of on the subject 1944, is signed by Your Excel­ more on all these despatche·.s but I do wish to No.

149.
149.

I notice that states: 3 Your Excellency in the Review generally some doubt that mechan­ of the Rice Sir Frank Stockdale discussions Industry while expressing isation would prove practicable satisfactory in British Guiana, agreed that it was necessary it out and undertook ing the project."

to try and desirable in further­ to assist and 49,000.

"The figure for the year is 51,000 tons The 1943 Autumn rice tons of rice which compares tons for 1942.
The total as against crop is 45,000 with '43,079 acreage reaped shows a falling off in the rain grown 'shied' of East Demerara, weather conditions However, higher obtained yields per acre have been from the transplanted areas.

and breeding work has of Agriculture of the Department and several continued are new varieties tests."

commercial undergoing "The experiment at seeding time.
areas, especially those due to unfavourable It is regrettable that the Comptroller or unfor­ but Sir Frank Stockdale that is really up to the present I want to say that unless time we are means are practicable g that will prove beneficial Fortunately in this Colony I know, when­ on and > and Welfare should of Development express doubt, and from my small experience ever these doubts are expressed something somethin what happens.
tunately told that these mechanical satisfactory, doubts they will prove practicable satisfactory.

this Government is prepared to mechanise methods in � this Colony it will be better that Government shut up the Colony and s to get out, as you tell the inhabitant are not going to get people to continue • with antiquated methods and not keep abreast of t'he time a:s other parts of the world are doing.
If it is beyond the capacity expert advisers machinery improvement this Government and mechanisation of our indu·.stries, to provide suitable for the then of Government and modernise has failed and all its and ,.. considerably, The PRESIDENT: In point of fact we are applyipg Rice Industry.

mechanisation to the The COLONIAL TREASURER: In point of fact that is what the motion is au· about.

The PRESIDENT: It interests That is what the President of this suggests It looks very throughout.
in his written Review or repeti �ion of phrases No.

203 dated :i.2th November, the rice industry.

No one like that and the which have been Council as regards reading a statement many despatches wntten can come to a conclusion as to what is the actual amo _mt.

I cannot.

I have read those de·.sp<Ltches.

I have seen sentences practically well, a lot of paper, �t lot of matter; comprehensive it is called, but I do not know how to term it.

I have read Despatch 1943, Despatch 1943, Despatch No.
205 November, dated 12th November, 1943, Despatch No.

206 dated 12th November, 1943, and No.

207 dated 12th November, De·spatch 1943, all signed by the hon.

the Colonial Secretary Deputy.

Five despatches of the same to various schemes on date referring in British Guiana, rice production frankly ing to.

I have also read-I am putting these things in detail because probahly I will have to ref er to them later on­ Despatch 194.R i R Riirned b.Y Sir Gordon Lethem, No.
212 dated 23rd November, I do not see where we are head� No.

204 dated 112th and who was then Governor's 891 G.D. W. Funds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Rice Expansion Schemes 892 should have mechanisation, have a motion on which he is speaking to the very subject.

relating and here we that in the editorial while saying that because Colonial hand in it.

Maybe I have a big hand.

Treasurer thinks I have a columns.

the hon.

the I smile Mr. JACOB: l agree partly with that but not wholly.
Unless you attempt to do that you will not be able to compete with the world markets.

The COLONIAL TREASURER: The hon.

Member has two hands in it.

The PRESIDENT We are Mr. JACOB : That does not attempting .

Mr. JACOB; When a gentleman in the position of Sir Frank Stockdale expresses doubt on a matter so obvious, one wonders what next.

in the cultivation but he like some of designs failed.

the technical The COLONIAL TREASURER: I in 1942 at the discussions He did was pre·.sent with Sir Frank Stockdale.
of the use of express doubt in respect of mechanisation rice in this Colony, in us knew that in the past had the experiments doubt about was What he expre·ssed that the right type of machinery be available and in that despatch confess was partly drafted had put that in as it was going to Sir Frank Stockdale and do all he could to encourag .

help us to get mechanical l do hope the hon.


Member will not press Sir Frank\, would for the kind of soil here, who would welcome it e and equipment which I now doubts.

by me I and I is not doing that.

While am in the Association do?

He goes, looks around, I am not going to say more we have matter.

I have given the facts I have got and Trea.,urer which the hon.

the Colonial knows.
the Colonial knows.

I say the Rice Marketing Board itself Your Excellency brings in the question here, what does one of the Executive Officers come·s back and tells the people "We will not be able to sell the rice as there is not the market.

We have to be afraid of Burma."

I know the reason why, and that is why I have ref erred to Sir Frank Stockdale.

at the moment.

You suggest to do certain maintain markets Hemisphere.

aim at.

What practical taken by this Government that?


I would c·ertainly that at some future date you will put 8 before this Council clear picture so much, we ing that we are producing propose markets Government that, an elementary done by any business practically to ·sell and to eat so much.

Has this taken the trouble That is something steps are being to do thing and practical of the W e-.stern to not only the West Indian so many tons to outside but the markets has been done.
things-to to achieve like to know nothing secure and man?

No; show­ markets West Indian view of things.

to secure and maintain Mr. JACOB: I am thankful for that.

assistance, but I do not see the practi­ cal side of it.

You made emphasis of the fact that if this Colony is to be in a position the whole of the pO'st-war markets for rice and to expand to we must take a other potential That is some­ practical thing practical.

ment doing to find out what will be the production markets to meet them and when?
I have listened of the Rice Marketing Ea.st Indian Association with that and the Editor of its paper ,: '"l:h.o.

T nni:rn Oninion".

also dealt with what those how we are going Board.

The dealt at length What is this Govern­ in this Colony, will require, to radio talks by the Secretary Coming to Your Excellency' s other No.
150 dated 4th August, despatch, 1944, Your Excellency ing: opened by say "I have the honour to refer to th regarding the purchase correspondence two rice mills for this Colony ending my telegram 1944. .

. "

No.

119 of 13th Februaryj o wi goes on t And Your Excellency say in paragraph 3.

S93 G.D. W. Funds for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.


Rice Expansion Schemes 894 "As regards the second mill which it has been decided to obtain from the United Kingdom the information requested in my telegram as to the possibility mill in place of the second hand plant originally received offered has not yet been from the Crown Agents .

.

."

No.

81 of 2nd February of obtaining a new before the Committee with second hand machinery.
not a step in the I advise that no I am ·sorry to think this Colony is of the erection advice in respect one with immense you are going to begin to of a central We had quite that investigated of a central of dee mill in a lot of dn.ta no mention the desir­ mill of and we had the benefit attention of going to embark on the schemes with For a new second hand machinery.

brand project, possibilities, experiment That is certainly right direction.

second hand machinery be bought at all.


then goe·s on to speak Your Excellency about Dryers in the 6th paragraph.

I remember I was a member of a Committee ability in Essequibo, the advice and personal Mr. Parker.

I have asked for that Report but have not got it.

I think the hon.

the Colonial Treasurer would remember that Mr. Parker came out here, appeared and gave valuable the erection Essequibo.

and facts, but absolutely tias been made of that in this Despatch.
your expert adviser, was Mr. Seaford, on that Committee and, I think, the Chairman was Major Bain Gray, then .

That Com­ Acting Colonial in 1937 or 1938. mittee was appointed All those papers have been thrown aside and something method adopted for progress, may I ask?

I think certainly prepared.

had estimates the advice of a practical Malaya coming out here, sent hy the Secretary You had on that Committee Mr. man.
That Com­ Seymour, a practical a Report, but the mittee submitted wh;le thing is forgotten and you are beginning now again.

When the present you will have an9ther set of Officials and start over again.

That is my of this Colony.

You have a experience scheme, an industry, not.

You have You have had Manager of new started.

Is that and everything that Secretary Oficers go away on promotion, of State for the Colonies.

to work on.
to work on.

We can grow but this Government with the whole now, puts is possible the best rice that can be produced in any part of the world.

We can grow rice here and compete with Burma very successfully, is just tinkering problem.

It does something it before the people; there is a little flutter and a new set of Officers a fresh start.

Mr. Parker was empha­ tic that artificial that a fully used and recommended central padi.
mill should deal with all the and then everything drying can be success­ is forgotten begins to make The COLONIAL TREASURER: I was a member of that Committee myself and Mr. Parker was agaill'st mechanisation.

He came from the East and was very much in favour of sun drying.

He was very keen on sun drying.

The hon.

Member is quite wrong in what he said.

-drying can be successfully Mr. JACOB: I am not prepared the hon.

the Colonial that the hon.


in the matter, but what I am certain May I ask the Clerk of to get that Report?

I was a to contradict Treasurer, about is that the hon.

Member was not a member of that Committee.

Council and I member of that Committee remember distinctly Member was not a member of it.

I took a very keen interest and Mr. Parker was emphatic that mechanical used.

I express doubt, however, whether a single mill in Essequibo handle all the padi produced quibo.

I know Essequibo, to the hon.


Member who repre­ respect sents that divi·sion.

Mr. Parker went further to say that the padi.

from Leguan and W akenaam can be trans­ and be handled by ported to Essequibo the central mill.

I am saying that Mr. Parker's and he recommended central that this Government gotten that and has begun now to look for data and new advice and, what is more, from the U.S.A. That is all 1 say about it.

of mills.
of mills.

But my main point is ·.seems to have for­ in Esse­ with all due advice can be well taken, the erection can 895 C.D.W.

Funds for Rice Expa,nsion Schemes 89o LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

The PRESIDENT: I do not think we are looking for advice.

Mr. JACOB: You have given up Adviser and are looking yom· British Maybe it is fo:!'

an American a good thing.

I see in the 8th para­ graph of Your ExceJlency's of the 4th August you state: Adviser.
despatch "With regard to the proposed visits by that an experi­ experts it is most desirable enced person should supervise and the initial the Comptroller ness to support a free grant for this pur- pose .

.

.

. "

operations of the mills and has expressed his willing­ the erection I am definitely y asking for grants and I will That will capture mO'.st of us, but it will not catch me.
We may certainly obtain free grants if we are able to manage our own affairs, but we are mis­ managing our own affairs so as to be continuall if we do not get any­ not be surprised thing at all.

This free.

grant idea is agaim,t.

something I say but my point of we do want experts, view with all due respect to other experts Colony and we want British them to see our point of view rather than to dictate British other blood running through B'ut I do not know if all of us can say that.

and advise us.
and advise us.

I am to the backbone.

I have no is that this is a British experts.

We want my veins.

there?

Most of certainly and that the scheme.

throughout are thrown on the wrong side to dig a trench and make a dam to keep off the flood water, you are not going to throw the spoils from the trench on put the you will both side·s; spoils on one side and make up a dam.

But what has happened the spoils with the result that there will be no dam to keep the flood water out.
That is what I say is bad de·.signing, has happened Whenever you want to make a dam and you dig a trench, are not you certainly going to throw the spoils on the wrong side as you want to get a dam to pre­ vent the water flooding the dam.

As regards they have the the cross-trenches wrong thing.

They have thrown the dirt on both sides and when the practi­ cal men talk about it they are told to shut up and it is not Colonial ment money but ·Imperial money and they can spend it as they like.
One District the impudence nothing to do with it.

I am in charge of it.

It is Imperial spend it as I like."

to tell me "Oh, you have Commissioner money and I will had Govern­ Government Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: May I ask the hon.

Member to make himself In those cross-trenches thrown up on both sides.

The hon.

clear.

Member has not made himself the earth is clear?

Then there is Your Excellency's No.

1511 of the 4th other despatch, August., 1944.

This is my main point.


The second paragraph Mahaicony-Abary Scheme.

It says : refers to the Mr. JACOB: I think I made myself quite clear.

Certain places require the earth to be thrown on one side only.

People have complained taken me there and shown me.

If you mean·s in want to employ mechanical your cultivation have dams so as to transport you must certainly to me and have your tractors. "

.

· .
.

· .

The works include the construc­ tion and fencing of dams on the four sides of the area to protect the land from flood­ ing, and digging and fencing of some 27 miles of main drainage and irrigation canals, the construction and the installation minute drainage safeguard or of water shortage.

against any possibility .

.

."

of 10 large sluices and irrigation of two 80-ton per pumps as a of flood I have been to Mahaicony twice-­ once by boat and through mud.
From have I certainly my knowledge-and r1ome knowledge and of local drainage irrigation conditions-if you are going If the hon.

Member does not under­ connected stand what I am saying I will ask him t?

go bac� and study the whole ques­ tion.

He is one of Government'•.s advis­ ers.

He is the only Member of this Council have ibuilt up the industry, only Member there to advise Govern­ ment on the work of the people who about.
One know what they are talking there wrote a man who had a tractor was that his tractor complaining_ letter with those people who and is the 897 G.D. W. Funds for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Rice Expansion Schemes 893 of some spiteful will not listen there.

I referred him to being ruined because work by people the hon.

Member for Ea:stern Demerara who said he could not (Mr. Humphrys) see him, and I told him to see whom he liked.
Representatives of some dis­ My tricts friend does not know and does not know where to find out.

He sits down, listens to everything and says it is all right.

I take the trouble to find out and I do so without any hope of reward.

Government me of that.

to these people.

cannot accuse The J?RESIDENT: Are you sure ' you are not overs.ta ting the case?

Mr. JACOB: I am not.

A man and loses his money, gets disgusted labour and machinery.
That is the reason why the Mahaicony area has not produced the rice it should.

There must be proper dams and trenches.

The whole design of the scheme wa·s bad and at least 50 per cent.

of the money has I would like to make been mis-Rpent.

other quotations !rom page 14 of Your No.

151 of August Excellency's 4, but it may be said that I am repeat­ ing myself.
In paragraph 9, however, Your Excellency makes this point:- despatch '"With accepted means an additfonal or an increase the Colony's present of nearly 50 per cent.

on exportable surplus:" average yields, this 10,000 tons of rice Your Excellency was careful to put the surplus at 20,000 Board, and 1,000 exportable 1941, to 31st March, 1942, gives Colony's toms.

I have been looking at the reports of the Rice Marketing The tons do make some difference.
'report of the Board for the period 1st October, no figures because the exportable sur­ plus was less than 10,000 tons.

The to give the figures.

For Board refused the period April to September, 1942, the quantity of rice exported was noted as exports ber, 1941, to 30th September, 1942- 18 863 tons.

The following report for th� period ht April, 30, 1943, shows that the quantity exported from January as given in the Commercial Review, was 18,313 tons.
Last year, to December, the exports during the period 1st Octo­ 1943, to September were 17,180 tons.

The previous year they were 22,479 tons.

The quantity exported tons, as against responding appear that the quantity year will be over 20,000 tons.

up to August this year is 14 878 11,000 during the �or­ period last year.

It does this exported thousand�, • .

Govern­ that this Government 11as received from the Imperial and so long supplying condition g me every time?
Those of dollars ment on the specific Colony should supply the West Indian market with rice.

Before those sums of money were forthcoming we were all the British practically West Indian Islands and the French West Indies with ri�e.

Today we are alone.

Are unable to supply Trinidad those facts not known to the Colonial who is an expert in twisting Treasurer figure·s?
Am I to repeat those facts every time I speak on rice, and to have him contradictin methods, are Government's so long will I as Government continues act as I am.

Government has not made good u·se of this money which hars been given to us, and while I regret to say it I think the Secretary ask Government withhold been done.

I think the Secretary State should send out two experienced men to look after this expenditure.

local people people think that some of them are a menace to the expansion industry.
who are advising expansion to the industry.

opinion and that opinion has been expressed verJ clearly of State should to give an account and grants until that has of of the rico Most people feel that thoae of the East Indian Association on the are a menace, That is definitely of the industry in an editorial in its small pa;per.

Government The Some further tha .

British Who is the Government?


I realize it gets the Government Guiana has got the that a country deserves Government but I can assure; it deserves, you that some of us are beginning think that it is regrettable in British Guiana.

here for 30 odd years, and I feeL that f should leave this country now.

This country has been very kind to me in very many ways but I do not think it is to that we are I have laboured have failed completely.

899 G.D. W. Funds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.


Rice Expansion Schemes 900 the padi from the fields?

Are they going to be provided the heavy rainfall?

do not expect heavy rainfall when the rice is being reaped they have no fore­ sight.

with dams during If those concerned are birds of pas·.sage-some by for many The rice about rice only.

mismanaged rice cultivation has been sacrificed on rice alone.

In order there going to be kind to me in the future.
I think it is grossly people who people say "birds of prey''.

industry things.

We are talking I do not know whether these sums are to be expended to have successful industry­ must be some complimentary pigs poultry, ground provisions, cattle, and so on.

What is being done in those directions?

Mahaicony started to remove the cattle of 50 miles from the area where they were.

Can an ordinary man live on rice cultivation without the Mahaicony protest the designers people to keep their cattle area.
A lot of harm has been done already agreed to permit the within the but it did not matter to them.

alone?

Can Georgetown district?

After long do a distance What has happened to the Scheme?

The de'.signers and a good deal of dislocation the milk that it receives from My attention has been drawn to the for a tug.

future.

There must roads.

In thi'S entire state because fact that there is provision That is not good enough to transport padi from 12,000 acres of land between Mahaica and Abary.
If Government is going to erect a central rice mill it must plan for the be proper internal Colony we are in a chaotic we have no regular of transporL visit my constituency spending steamer, and that wonderful available a person in very good health can travel on the lorries road.

I have to sit on a 22 hours each way, is only facility Only to me once a fortnight.

-road, rail or water.

To and proper means on the Bartica-Potaro a of Government must revise its plans for their transport?
in that and provide that surplus when rice was boom­ not aware of the Bank established side have told the people too prosperous was constant has blundered in the first The hon.

Member for George­ (Mr. Percy C. Wight) has have The people in that district stated in the past, and with a good deal of truth and justification, water from the Lamaha conservancy was let loose to flood the Abary area.

over and over again That has happened and with regularity during the last 10 years.
ls Government fact that Barclays branch at Mahaica ing in that area?

The rice industry was becoming flood- area, and the result ing, cattle dying and rice mills being flooded have so much less rice being produced in that area, and Government i'S now to improve that area.

I attempting have seen the estimate.


papers until one o'clock On page 16 of Your Excellency's despatches, ing each item in the scheme with the estimated I find under item (e) -" Internal Transport''-provision for 6 lorries $1,000 each, and levelling What are the lorries they going to run on the public road only, or will they be used to transport for the Mahaicony scheme more money for the construction be a dam alongside dams.

There must the creek.


Certain people on the Government that they' will not see a dam there-why should there be a dam when launches will be provided Government instance.

town Central said that Government is blundering now.

My last visit to the district over a year ago.

I went there in 1942 and 1943, and.

I discusse with someone from there a few weeks ago.

Whilst it is true that a good rice crop is being reaped at the moment there are only about 3,000 acres under cultivation.
may say that it cannot get labour.

There are labour advi'sers now on the Executive and in other places.

that the indictment unwilling correct.

day and women 1 /6 Government will certainly Government's Council think I certainly that labour is not If men are to be paid 3/-per I read those this morning.

to work is certainly at $3,000 each, 2 jeeps at not get them to work.

It is policy to underpay an<l in the memorandum out.

The re·.sult Government going to do?


Are d the matter dams $2,000 even wa;:; is that now we describ­ costs, 901 C.D.W.

Funds for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Rice Expansion Schemes 902 expect people to work just because it is will not get Government.

people to co-operate Government in that way.

to speak very frankly.

e its present scheme is very bad.

Gov­ g to serve, and whose welfare to have at heart, to co-oper­ I promised I have attempted to do so and I have not overstated my case.
I have been accused of doing that over and over again.

I am of the opinion that the Mahaicony ernment should discontinu methods and get the people whom j t is pretendin it pretends ate, but its officers are bullying them.

The time for that sort of thing is past.

Government people to work for even 4/-per day.

I have been looking figures and I have read the report of the radio interview Medical takes about $2 per week to feed a child properly.

Female workers Government and some of them have children.
Officer in which he said that it do not get $2 per week, will certainly not get into the cost of living with the Schoo] employed by of ground provisions, of vegetables.

and fresh meat.
and fresh meat.

It is true that At the present shortage of In its scheme Government must not forget cattle rearing and the production time there is a definite cattle there is a surplus and that we are exporting I heard over the radio the other day that it is not that British Guiana is it i's that British Guiana is exporting, able to supply local requirements and export at the same time.

I see the Publicity Officer present.

I advise him to look ous years.. at the export figures for previ­ some of it.
The PRESIDENT: I think you ought to keep to the motion.

Mr. JACOB: I think I am in order because, as I said, rice, cattle-- The PRESIDENT : Don't let us go back to local food production.

Mr. JACOB: Years ago we had sufficiept to supply the Colony's cattle and ground provisions requirements anq to of beef.
or discourage the production but during the last few years shortage is attempting of rice it must export, we have not been able to export, and there is a definite While Government increa·se not decrease tion of other things, That is definitely l\!Iahaicony and Mahaica.

Without cattle vation.

to plough and pull their boats out at certain there can be no proper rice culti­ The farmers must have oxen including what happened the produc­ times.

at cattle.
at cattle.

has not been beneficially say something and the West (Mr. C. V. and the hon.

Member We are grateful for these sums of money but half of it has been mis­ ·spent.

I made a note on the motion to of the the effect that 50 per cent.

$275,000 spent on the Mahaicony-Abary scheme.

My hon.
My hon.

friends who represent other districts will probably about the Corentyne Coast of Berbice, for Western Essequibo Wight) will certainly about the Anna Regina rice mill which I think has not been properly in the first instance, producing failure.
have the best advice, attempting ing in Essequibo able to compete mill and are succeeding extent, engineer re-arrange about mill­ the local millers are the Government to a very large with the result that a local had to be called in to the plan at Anna Regina.
did not Maybe Government and while it is white rice has proved a to do something and the idea of against tell us something designed of who should at I have nothing more to say at this stage and I trust that a report of this debate will be sent to the Secretary State for the Colonies least ·see the other point of view-that the sums of money being given to us are not being properly certainly official record to some of my friends England who are asking all the time that money be sent, and it may be well to tell them that although mone;v they like to send a copy of the in they give us send U!
;I experts to spent.

I should ·should 903 G.D. W. Funds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Rice Expa,nsion Schemes 904 on has happened see how it is spent.

I am serious the point that this money is not being properly spent.

I could give facts to in the show that what recent case fa happening time, but it would lead us nowhere.
am only advi'Sing proper super­ of these v1s10n and administration should funds, and I think that experts come out to advise as to the planning and the completion at the present caution, schemes.

of the·ae I Mr. JACKSON : There is one thing the hon.

Member for North (Mr. Jacob) should Western District be made to unsay at this stage.

He said that the Colonial was not .a member of the Essequibo Coast Ric� Committee.

asked to read the signatures at the end of that report.
Perhaps he may be Treasurer I against of so highly the opinion could not accept his he has endeavoured for rice cultivation.

to with as regards the on lands a member of this community at his disposal for me of cannot give him credit for the amount of knowledge credit himself laying out of drains and canals suitable certainly opinion respected with the best knowledge as Mr. F. J. Seaford.
I had an opportunity paying a visit to the Mahaicony-Abary Rice Expansion would advise every Member of this Council and every person who is inter­ ested in the growing of rice in this Colony to go there and see for himself what has been done in the hope of making the Rice Industry will be of some use and help to thi'a Colony.

and I certainly quite r:ecently Fortunately one which Scheme, Mr. JACOB: I am sorry; my It is memory failed riot a laughing me.

(laughter).

matter.

The PRESIDENT: That is a too.


matter of opinion, of opinion felt that this were hoping to Committee I have -aeveral and what was happen­ a considerable of 2,500 acres.

I took in the times asked for as to how the For two or three years I have been hearing reports that the Rice Marketing Board and the Rice Expansion put under cultivation area of land in the Mahaicony-Abary Within the last few months I district.
had heard that they had ploughed and planted in the vicinity To show the interest matter, an expression rice was growing g was ing, and I was told that everythin going well.

I therefore was an opportunity prove that mechanical cultivation and reaping come to stay.

When I wa·a asked by a few Treasurer the hon.

the Colonial weeks ago if I cared to go and see the scheme, I promptly the sug­ gestion, and astounded expressing in that area.
In the fi,rst place I was amazed at the enormous had been cultivated was equally had been done before cultivation could take place.

Before I go further I would like to pay tribute h.ag b�eri responsil:)le, at what I saw is feebly what has happened to thO'ae who if not, eqtirely at and planted.

at the work that and to say that I was amazed of rice was something for the Colony to astounded accepted area which that had I Mr. JACOB: I asked for that a·aked The Committee document.

in April, '1938.
in April, '1938.

I ment over the telephone Two different documents the table and I am sorry that I said the Treasurer Committee.

I find that he was.

was appointed for the docu­ this morning.

were laid on was not a member of the The COLONIAL TREASURER: I can also tell the hon.

Member that I drafted the ;report.

Mr. JACOB: I am not surprised.

recollection I had a distinct Bain Gray was on the Committee.

now -aee that he was originally appointed.


that Major I with Mr. KING: I have listened to what has been said by great interest the hon.

Member for North Wes tern District going to give him credit for some of ri�� · 1 of the cultiv�tion knowledie (Mr. Jacob), and while I am 905 G.D. W. Funds for 18 OCTOBER, 1944.

Rice Expa,nsion Schemes 906 to this that Mr. Treasurer has to the work, of the Colony.

the Governor Treasurer.


of the Colony, We are fortunate it will be a success even is not one who desires or has rendered to this industry, least in a very great measure, for the success of the scheme, because I am quite certain in a larger are,a.

· The hon.

the Colonial this morning!'

paid tribute and unpaid for, that the hon.

unstinted Mr. Seaford has rendered 'Scheme in the interest I know that the hon.
the Colonial Treasurer hopes for praise for anything he does but I feel in the interest that great as the work and the help and the as1sistance Seaford they are not greater than what has been dor:e in the same way or in a different manner by the hon.
the Colonial in this Colony in having in the Govern­ ment Service alongside where he can help and assist Govern­ ment in a way that one outside will not be able to do a man who is capable of taking charge of what I may term a commercial Marketing rice growing in the Mahaicony-Abary the Colonial area.

In Mr. McDavid, Treasurer I am glad to of this Colony, think that we have his services in I know that he is those .resipects.

in the Rice Indu'Stry.


keenly interested For about eighteen a member of the Rice Marketing Board I realized the amount of thought and amount of care he took in handling the affairs uf that Board.

I know it must a considerable have occupied amount of of the Rice his time.
This expansion even more of his Industry time, and it surpri-ses me to think how he does all he does within the short space of twenty-four myself a busy man and most consider of us do, but I certainly will not attempt to do the amount of work for which Mr. McDavid will get nothing but thanks and the gppreciation of his and which he doe.s outside his country with him he official duties.
Associated equally as keen has one who is perhaps of the Rice Industry in the development and a very capable officer whom I have l\nown for many years.

ln the Seer�- proposition Board and the scheme of months while I was has occupied such a·s the Rice hours a day.

I has for what .
I has for what .

There Board this doubt that the who I under­ knowledge and done a paid him for his services as recompense amount in this Rice Scheme of the Mahaicony­ tary of the Rice Marketing Colony is lucky in having a man of the type of Mr. Gadd.

This Colony owes him a debt of gratitude is not the slightest remuneration is insufficient the Colony owes him for the assistance he has given to the Rice Industry in this Colony.
Another Officer to whom I desire to pay tribute, stand and from personal taken a very keen interest tremendous Expansion Ab.ary area, is Mr. Bell of the Agricul­ tural Department.

without the keenness of those four gentlemen named, this experiment been the success from my seat in this Council to say on my behalf and on behalf of those I represent-I express to those gentlemen for what they have done.
I am sure when they look back in later years when the Rice Industry is on a firm and solid footing, they will have the satisfaction of knowing that but for their foresight, courage the Rice Industry have come to anything.

suppose their opinion-we enthusiasm and would not whom I have would not have it has been.
I desire and enthm,iasm are g,rateful I feel sure that others will J.am satisfied, and have said so for of rice in so far as manual I do not believe will be something extent than it except by mechanical a few years, that saturation point so fa!'

as the growing anct reaping has been reached labour is concerned.

that this Colony can expand the Rice Industry to any greater is now expanded means of cultivation That and tillage.
is the only hope I have that the Rice Industry of which this Colony will be proud and which will be a great financial years to come.

It has been doubted, know, for years in this Colony by many persons their experience opinion, made by Sir Frank Stockdale the hon.

Member for North-Western District referred d9ubt, as to mechanical expre·.ssing the same in and reading the statement who had .a right through to express their cultivation asset in the to which I 907 C.D.W.

Funds for LEGISLATIVE.

COUNCIL.


Rice Expansion Schemes 903 cannot hold the means.

I know a cultivation cultivation that the 'Stalks had in of and it It might be difficult I feared was in years gone by they a rice which bears so so far as Rice in this Colony is concerned.

is feared that it might not be success­ ful.


The only doubt I personally was that there might be difficulty so far a" the mechanical rice and· that was in the reaping of rice by mechanical type of rice that grows on the certain estate which I partly control, Mary­ ville, Leguan, which does not stand up.

Through the efforts of the· Agricultural Department have produced heavily amount of padi on each particular stalk.

That was one difficulty in so far as mechanical But the type of rice concerned.
area, in the Mahaicony-Abary planted whether type it is due to the particular or to the type of soil there I cannot say� stands up and not the slightest by the reapers culty is experienced cutting.

I was surprised to see that.


In the ingly gratified with the course of conversation who was also Director one of the party, I asked him if he felt that there would be any difficulty of rice being reaped other types mechanically, and from what I under­ stand him to say they are at pre·aent working in the Botanic the Rice Expert on a type of rice which, so far in the opinion of the Director as can be seen now, is probably better than any type we have now and which will stand up.
But so long as that is overcome difficulty ·.slightest doubt that this Colony can plant and reap rice mechanically.

will, I know, be difficult man to have his rice planted by mechanical is some means of assisting him with communal ploughs and threshers for the small and .reaped means at first until there of Agriculture, I have not the and exceed­ and by Gardens diffi­ in in It .
Until the difficulty i'a overcome whereby the small man who now plants his piece of land with rice having what is known as meres to protect the land and keep the water in, until such means are devised by which rice can be grown by artificial be that difficulty help there will, I admit, in so far as the small of rice for this I personally cultivation reaping he will very soon realise that of land for man i concerned.
do not think that is going to stand in the way of the small man having his land ploughed or reaped mechanically, because the mechanical rice and the mechanical are going to reduce the cost consider­ ably, and that is one fear, I think.

It will be impossible Colony to compete in the world market of rice, unless we can reduce the cost of production and bring the rice down to a level with other countries undoubtedly will compete with us in years to come.
I have some idea as to the cost of cultivating an acre, but very little idea or threshing ever quite certain less than in the somewhat expensive fbreshing by infinitely is done mechanically.

it will be very much and tedious method of reaping and hand or bull.

It will be e than if it as to the cost of reaping an acre of rice.

I am how­ more expensiv which a rice­ that there is every and parts which were most and pairts quite unneces­ In the speech made by the hon.
Distl'ict Member for North-Western there were parts that were certainly refreshing depressing sary.

But I was exceedingly glad to in this statement hear him make the Council that he has the firm and com­ plete conviction hope of this Colony becoming country.

Not only do I producing !hope that but, as Your Excellenc y has said in your despatch to the Secretai:y of State which was referred hon.

Member, to supply the West Indies and this part of the world with rice.
I hope when the time comes we will be able to go further and more advantageous our rice because, Member and as I have been always told, the rice of this Colony is as good as any other rice in the world and better than most.

There is no better rice g,rown in the world than the rice in British Guiana, and as soon as the world realizes !markets now closed to us will be as stated by the hon.

and get better markets for to by the afield that, I am quite sure, 909 G.D. W. Funds for 18 "OCTOBER, 1944.
Rice Expansion Schemes 910 subject to those gen-· to that idea, and I or five million dollars, whether then I feel it will engaged.

There is no in this Colony to such of nearly $300,000 because I am certain to for their foresight Last year I heard the opinion for the grants so generously of rice had been They felt it was that it was madness, as cultivation by free grant or loan from 0:1 · from the to establish opened to us when we are able to supply their needs.
If it means a matter of spending a million, or two million, obtained the Imperial Government assets of the Colony itself, a rice industry a size as I imagine, be money well spent.

Money does, not matter because we will get it back in course of time.

That is why I feel we do owe a debt of gratitude tlemen I referred and courage in going on with thi::i mattefr.

expressed mechanical tried and had failed.

just a waste of money, a wild gamble.


I never subscribed was glad when I had the opportunity a few days ago to see what has been and can be done in the mechanical cultivation I feel sure 'hon.

Members will take my advice and see it.

They will be surprised as I was to see what is being done there.

The hope i�, if they can get the additional mechanical another rice.

It is there for the purpose of growing rice.


The area I saw there was enormous, and I feel sure it will make a tremendous amount of rice at present the Colony.

production will be a great help, it will be nothing to the amount of rice that is required by this part of the world which we can deal with.

100,000 tons, or 150,000 tons of rice can easily be sold so long as we can get the differ­ ent other markets which before the war were barred against extent.
The only way to do that is to reduce the cost and make the price of our rice of the· world.

in which I have been interested for many years and one in which I have been actively need for me to say much more on this particular that even in spite of the remarks made by the hon.

Member, who spoke before me, that he is satisfied some of this money had been wasted every Member of this Council to will give his support the motion which has been moved by Treasurer the hon.
the Colonial and that we will express our appreciation and our thanks to the Tonperial Gov­ .ernment made to help us foster and expand the of the Colony.

I am not Rice Industry the money has been able to say whether but I will be very wasted or stolen, much surprised to learn that in the expenditure some of it is not wasted and some of it has, not other than tho gone into channels right ones.

That is very natural.


It is veiry difficult ture of a large sum of money in an area far removed from direct control.

Some of it will be lost or some of it some get away without obtaining return.

But I am quite certain that of that the money is under the control and Treasurer the hon.

the Colonial those who I know a,re interested in the project up there, and that very little of it has been wasted and very little has been stolen.
saw there is pretty sound and I will say this: The labornrers I saw there are not many, but they were certainly working hard.

I admit it is possible to put on that show for our benefit, but the results not the labourers as they should.

It i_s quite easy to check up the returns.

to associate and to express ful appreciation I again desire myself with the motion to Government necessary, that 3,000 acres will be put under After all, if we double our in the Colony today which our grate­ of what is being done.
difference on the produced ii� of rice in this Colony.

The supervision with other markets tons or 120:,000 will show whether or are working as hard reasonable equipment the expendi­ us to a great to control I to say Mr. LEE: I did not e,xpect I felt on this motion because should always be anything this Government grateful to the Imperial for any grant it receives, but Government this subject because it is an industry There is much more I can say on 911 G.D. W. Funds for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
Rice Expansion Schemes 912 farm­ farmers they are not of rice prod uc­ and reaping for reaping.

means and so reduce I feel Govern­ .to At the time the experiment in area was not there is one thing I would like to point out to those responsible for the expansi0in tion.

Whilst they are experimenting with mechanical the cost of production, that to the peasant carrying so as to teach them that mechanical wJH be means of cultivation a saving to them.
For the last Aubnm to go the threshers crop they allowed and the proprietors who to Es,sequibo use were great of thei·r got the benefit in their praise fOJ:" the reduction eost as well as of the number of labour­ which resulted.

ers employed can see its way to .ask if Government to the constituency send a thresher for the·· reaping of which I represent them the crop there, so as to educate in its use.

Government I made the request the Mahaicony-Abary quite ready for reaping.
ment should take every opportunity try it out on the plots of peasant ers.

I know there are rumours that the money has been mis-spent.

have been shown and efforts made to prove them, but I am not satisfied and more.

I feel it will not say anything is my duty to warn Government to in respect of the exercise caution money that is spent in the digging of the manner trench�s in which they are dug.

If Govern­ ment takes notice of what we say, some of the money will not be mis-spent.
'l'his motion I heartily Gove:rnment order to expand the rice production do so and we will gladly welcome and do ask support if it can to get more in to and in respect I would .Facts it.

· of of of in various parts of erbice Mr. FERREIRA: To a point of !

Last year the Grow More paid the expenses cOJ:"rection F'ood Committee the farmers to go to Mahaica and see the threshers in say­ at work.
I think I am correct ing that some time later it was pro­ posed to have demonstrations for small farmers and efforts weire made to get the threshers a communal and cutters basis among them.

to work on I and then meet in The PRESIDENT: I expect sev­ eral other members would like to speak on the motion.

If it is convenient suggest that we meet at 12 o'clock tomorrow afternoon Finance Committee to invite the hon.

Mr. Wool­ propose the hon.

ford, the hon.

Mr. Critchlow, Mr. de Aguiar and the hon.


Mr. Fer­ reira to serve on a Select Committee to conside,r the motion which was pre­ viously afterwards.

passed.

I What there knowing Mr. LEE: I am glad to hear that, but no effort was made in that regard of my constituency.

in respect I would like to say is this: Quite the rice-farmers recently that Government thresher-reaper could not approach order to obtain its use.
I approached the person in charge of it as the area was an eJCtensive pJanted told me that it could not be rented nor lent because asked me whether I the Committee it would be required had brought down a one, and he in by Mr. EDUN: Ministers included.

of if two I was thinking cannot be Religion The PRESIDENT: I am afraid not.

It is a Select Committee of the Council.

The Council the following adjourned afternoon.

to 2 o'clock