Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698069909011.pdf (Guyana)
987 Members Present LEGISLATIVE COUNClt � LEGISLATIVE D !merara) .

COUNCIL.

Unofficial Notices 988 The Hon.

Dr. C. Jagan (Central THURSDAY, 6th MAY, 1948 The Hon.

W. 0.

R. Kendall (New Amsterdam).

The Hon.

C. A. McDoom (Nominated).

•,rhe Hon.

A. T'.

Peters (Western t The Council met at 2 p.m., His 8,irbice).

t Excellency t. ' dent, in the Chair.

Woolley, the Governor, O.B.E., Sir Charles M.C., Prcsi­ K.C.M.G., The Hon.

W. A. Phang (North West­ ern District).

'rhe Clerk react prayers.


• PRESENT.

The minutes of the meeting of the The President, His Excellency Governor, K.C.M.G., Sir Charles O.B.E., M.C.

Campbell the Woolley, held on Friday, Council as printed read and confh·med.

and circulated, the 30th of April, were taken as The Hon.

the Colonial Secretary, Mr. PAPERS LAID W.L.

Heape, C.M.G.

The Hon.

the Attorney-General, Mr.

The COLONAL SECRETARY laid documents on the table the following :- E.M. Duke (acting).

The Hon.
The Hon.

the Colonial Tre.1surer, Mr. E. F. McDavid, C.B.E.

The Hon.

F. J. Seaford, C.B.E., (Nomi­ nated).

Reports of the Commissioner of Income Tax for the year 1'945 and for the vear 1946.

The Report of the Colonv's at the meeting of thf' Pro­ Council of the University of the West Indies held in 1948. sentative visional Colle_ge January, repre­ The Hon.

Dr. J.

B. Singh, O.B.E., •(Demerara-Essequibo).

ANNOUNCEMENT The Hon.

T. Lee (Essequibo River).

UNOFFICIAL MOTIONS The Hon.


V. Roth (Nominated).

The PRESIDENT : I think I men­ ; ; The Hon.

T. T. Thompson (Nomi­ n,ated).

��.

.

, , nated).

The Hon.

W. J. Raatgever (Nomi­ The Hon.

G. A. C. Farnum (Nomi­ nated).

The Hon.

D. P. Debidin (Eastern· Demerara).

The Hon.

J. Fernandes (Georgetown Central).

The Hon.

Dr. G. M. Gonsalves (East­ ern Berbice}.

- one or two Unofficial to discuss and I would propose that apart tioned to hon.
Members that opportunity would be given them at this week's meetings motions, from one item on the Order Paper we should proceed with the motion standing in the name of Mr. Lee and Mr. Debidin, but the Government motion which I would wish to be taken first is the Rent Restriction regard as a very urgent matter, and it is important that should make some progress the Council agrees.
Attorney-General Bill, and thereafter Unofficial take it that the Council to proceed with that we would take the two motions on the Order Paper.

I to that.

the Council with it.

If I would ask the (Amendment) Bill.

That I agrees.

- ---...._.

....... 989 Rent Restriction 6 MAY, 1948.

( Amendment) Bill 990 RENT RESTRICTION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 1948 move that the Bill be read a second time.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: (Mr.


The COLONIAL SECR E T A RY E.M. Duke, acting): second reading of I beg to move the seconded.

A Bill intituled "An Ordinance 1941, with respect to the further to amend the Rent Restriction Ordinance, standard rent of premises or in course of erection day of March, Nineteen Forty-one."

after on t:1e eighth Hundred and erected Mr. LEE : This Bill should have been certain tenants years ago.
There is to which I Owing to• of houses and the high introduced several one phase of the question would like to draw attention.

foe scarcity rentals their houses and rented rooms at • exorhitant rents.

making a profit a't the expense of their landlords.

that the Rent Assessor the power to assess the rent for sub­ tenants.

In a recent case in which I appeared the deplored lack of such power.
th<> Rent Assessor should be given I suggest have sub-divided ' · ( Under the Rent Resfriction Ordin­ has proved that rents have been or were in course on the 8th of March, 1941, ance of 1941, where premises have been erected after, of erection the standard rent of those premises is.

the amount at which the premises were first let.

Investigation in many cases exorbitant charged in respect and it is considered Rent Assessor as the standard rent for such premises stances.

fair and reasonable.


purpose that this Bill has been intro­ duced.

It merely contains section should have power to fix new a rent which in all the circum­ to be of the case he considers of those new premises, which reads as follows and it is for such desirable that the a single sub­ :- under "(lA) Where an application to premises the Rent Assessor day of March nineteen (1) o.f this section is made (·.vhether let erected on.
the hundred mav, subsection in relation furnished or unfurnished) after, or in course of erection ei_ghth and forty-one, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, ascertain standard not at a greater at w.hich the 1orerniscs the and certifv rent at a lesser amo1rnt.

but amount, than the rent were first let : that where the standard Provided rent is so reduced.
be instituted rent overpaid to the period before the date of the commencement for the recoverv bv a tenant in relation of this subsection."

shall no proceecline:s of any M;·.

DEBIDIN : I a_gree with the speaker.


who occupied come up against was able to obtain a monthl:v I :had to on behalf five rooms Saturdays b�fore the Rent Assessor remarks made by the previous On two s11ccessive a'_o)'.,c<lr of some tenants in the lower flat of a two-flat dwelling house which was rented at $25 per month at one time, hut by the sub-division the landlord rental of $64.
Those of us who have to appear before the Rent Assessor have a1,�,ays the question of apportionment come w:'len Government some provision instance, rented at $10 !

)er month was sub-divided the Rent Assessor has no power to the rent between the two apportion He has to fall back uoon the tenants.

provision which says that the rent shall be the amount at which the rocm was the law in En.gland first let.

I suggest of rent be relating introduced for it in the law.

For.
For.

if a room which was formerl!r of rent.

and the time has to a'pportionment in this Colony .. should make t.':iat J I am sceptical about the practical means is that if the Rent reduces the standard What the proviso to this proposed rent of would not new subsection Assessor new premises the landlord :have to repay to the tenant an:v amount of the period before the enact­ in respect I think it makes ment of this Ordinance.

it perfectly that the operation be made retrospective.
clear that it is not riroposed of this new subsection of clause 3 of this Bill, and I application know that the Rent Assessor has ·exclaimed about it.

It would mean that he would have to visit ever�' house, and at present he has more work than he· is able to cope with.

· To make would put him in assessments arbitrary a very invidious position.

of fact he is now being placed in the same position as the former Municipal I now formally' very loudl:v As a matter 991 Rent Restriction LEc1sLAr1vE CouNCIL.
( Amendment) Bill 992 "· I suggest the provision Appraisers.

t:1.at in clause 3 should be suspended until some practical can be C"olved.

It is a necessar:v but as things stand at present I do not think it is a wise one.

method of enforcing it step, given.

the tenant may be told he I have known of cases in which have taken undue advantage of their tenants.
rents were charged for new excessive dwellings, tenants were but the fir;5t allowed to pa:v $5 or $10 less than the amount for which the receipt was For instance per month, but would have to.

pa:v $40 he is given a receipt for $50 or $55, so that w:1en a new tenant comes along he is _givl;)n the actual rent paid tenant.

I therefore desirable ment to protect in the low income group.
by the original this a very move on the part of Govern­ those especiall:v for a sum in excess of tenants, consider 3 receipt # ' ) for had a problem to rent a house, decided to reserve Mr. PETERS : I too have had experi­ ence in the Asscssor·s Court of· this question of the lack of provision apportionment o1: rent.

Only a day or tv-10 ago the Rent Assessor , put to him in which he cuuld do nothing.
It was a case in which a landlord entered into a contract and after the tenant had moved into the house the landlord portion The tenant went to the Rent Assessor have the rent assessed of the house he occupied Assessor said he .had no power to do so -he could onl:v deal with the subject of the tenancy which was the entire house.

The onl.v remedy for the tenant was an damages.

I would be glad to action for see some 'provision the Rent Assessor problem.
for the portion but the Rent of the rented house unto himself.

made in the law for new to a to deal with this As regards the proposal in clause 3 is to be erected be also given the po,ver 01· in course of erection of the Bill to give the Rent Assessor power to fix the standard rent of premises on the 8th of March.

1941.

I personall:v feel that if the Rent Assessor given that power he should in fairness to the landlord to increase thE< 1·ent if he fiuds that too low a figure has bE:eu charged.
We of his should not restrict conscience, for tile tenant we should also make sauce for the landlord.

we delete the words "but not at a greater amount."

not restrict conscience.

we deferred and have a discussion General.

Perhaps it would be well if consideration in clause 3 of the Bill.
We should and if we are making sauce with the Attorney­ the operation the operation of the Assessor's I suggest that of this Bill is to be Dr. JAGAN: Government on introducing cohgratulated ment of the Rent Restnct1011 which I feel would help the distressed tenants to a very great extent.

I am aware of several cases in w.hich landlords this amend-, Ordinance Mr. ROTH : I too am very glad to I have had my see this Bill introduced.

not I know a cottage own 0xperience.


which a third of thE: size of this Chamber, ,has been rented during the last 12 months at $60 per month, and the landlord olanning is one exam'ple that this amendment of the Ordinance should be made.

of how necessary it is is to put another flat below.

That Mr. SEAFORD : I do not think any will have any­ out that difficulties may be the Bill as it to Member of this Councill thing but praise for a Bill of this kind.
The only thing is that certain Members have pointed encountered in enforcing I am therefore is presented.

agree with the hon.

MemLer Berhice (Mr. Peters) that further con­ sideration might be .i::iven to the Bill by the hon.

the Attorney-General assisted by some of our legal friends in this Council, so that we might have a Bill 'Nhich we would not have to amend in a short time.

inclined for Western Mr. FERNANDES : Like everybody on Government else, I congratulate brini;(ing forward this Bill.
It is overdue, but there is just one Hung I would like to ask the hon.

the Attorney-General with Your Excellency's arising previous if a room or building divided subsequent would be considered structed solve many of the problems after 1941.

If that is so it would that have I would like to know has been sub­ out of the remarks made b:v to 1941, whether that perm1ss10n, as having been con­ speakers.

993 Rent Restriction 6 MAY, 1948.

( Amendment) Bill 994 In would be powerless.

been put before us.
been put before us.

If a room sub­ divided in 1942 or any other time after 1941 is in order, then, as t:1e hon.

Member for Western Berbice has said, the Rent Assessor that ca:,e 1 would suppon tile suggestion that further consideration be postponed in order thc>.t these loop­ holes he stdpped.

I am not quite sure what the term "construction" means and whether dividing would bnng forward the date of con­ wouid be taken to struction.
If d1v1s10n mean constrnction, then there mig,ht be some dissatisfaction.

a room or buildin� uf this matter Mr. SEAFORD : Does · the hon.

Member when he tises the word "division" mean a permanent screen ?

porar�, division or a tem­ Mr. FERNANDES : I mean division of renting the premises for the pu•·pose to several persons.

Mr. LEE : This Bill speaks of then.

; if it had "construction" "erection·• perhaps, the Rent Assessor had to extend the legal definition.

term "erection" that it is a new thing.


If the Bill spoke of "construct of ion" then the question difference.

division might have made some the implication Flight have carries The ) 1, Secretary furnished �uh-clause just agree what is in m:v mind at the these points up before this it now because I entirely made by the hon.
the for the appoinlmE-nt Well, I would that one of the points by the Select Committee 3 CIA) should not in order to include all whie,h or unfurnished ( known to me-and I thank them for bringing " Council.

There is a slight amendment whic.h might he made and I v,1,iulcl indic;'.

!·,e with the suggestion Colonial of a Select Committee.

indicate moment.

I su��est to be considered is whethf'r not be amplified premises ,,.,ere first let after March 1, 1941.
At as to times there is some uncertainty whether a building or is a new building not; it ma�, very well be not a new building within the meaning of the Georgetown the framework might be old but it is scmetimes considered by the Rent Assessor although as being a new building what happened was that t 1e building was in a ve:·y bad state of disre'pair.

might not have been repaired :vear� and extensive it is called a new building.
Members of this Council probably of cases within their own experience where that has hapoened.

It for 30 are done and Building By-laws because I think hon.
repairs know The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Since in 'princi­ have approved and that when we reach the of certain points may I suggest all the speakers ple of the Bill and some have suggested early consideration relating to the details, that this Council passes fae second reading Committee stage Your Excellency a�ked to appoint a Select ,Committee to consider the Bill.

I think that would save a lot of time.


If the Bill passes its second reading this afternoon it would has approved of it show that this Council in principle, could be gone into by a Select Committee.

and the details be The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I am to see such a strong measure on the 'part of Members of very pleased of unanimity this Council of this Bill.
Most of the points raised have been raised by Members who are of whom are legal practitioners-most with respect to the principle to bona 0£ bogus caTtserl the :premises.

of entrusting these powers The hon Member for Central Demc­ rara made a ver:v _good point when he spoke of t'.1e issue bv landlo1·ds receipts.
The objert of this amendment is to eliminate hardship fide tenants by reason of bogus receipts issued in the first place to the persons With who first occupied reference to the point made b:v the hon.

Mern ber for Eastern Demerara as to the responsibility and of the Rent Assessor the advisahility to a Board, I would mention that this Ordinance to Georgeto,.,vn.

and the Ordinance it has been extended the Colony.


Further, the effect that a Rent Assessor ::it along with a Magistrate to be carefully fact that this Ordinance to Georgetown.

entirel;v with the suggestion the Colonial would have in view of the is not confined I entirely agree made by the hon.

to other parts of any amendment to is not confined entirely There is a Rent Assessor Secretary.

considered should can be extended-and 995 Rent Restriction Bin LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL .
Unofficial Members' Remuneration 996 • The PRESIDENT: As I stated before with the Order of the Day.

- this Rent Restriction.

as regards evasion we proceeded I would like this Bill to be considered today because I regard it as one of par­ urgency.
It has taken a long ticular time to come forward and one of the reasons for that is a very difficult My question experience is that no Book matter what we put on the Statute the amount of evasion that will take but we want place may be considerable, to make the law as perfect as we can.

But if we are _going to wait for months the and months before we do anything tenants are going · to continue to suffer.

My desire is .
My desire is .

to get something done which would prevent the unques­ tionable taking place at the present time and I am prepared of to a_gree to the appointment a Select Committee.

The suggestion is of the Bill and to take the second reading then refer it to a Select Committee for and I would ask that the consideration, Select Committee proceed to do its work with all possible that in Georgetown - that in Bartica is taking place and ruthless the sooner we can put a stop to it the better.
If the Attornev move the second reading of the Bill ¥1e can proceerl it.

tee to consider We all kno,_,_, - and I know also to a'ppoint a Select Commit­ exploitation which I recently General wo1-1lrl.

ex'ploitation expedition.

of tenants visited which is I appoint the Attorney-General, Deputy President; and the hons.

C. V. Wight, The PRESIDENT: On the assump­ tion that the hon.
Members concerned will agree to be members of the Select Com­ mittee, Chairman; O.B.E., Debidin and John Fernandes members of that Committee.

acceptable pose to appoint the Committee ingly.

I hooe that the Attorney-General who is the Chairman will endeavour arrange the report of the Committee possible T. Lee, D. P. to be the If that is to hon.
Members then I pro­ an early meeting and let us have as soon as accord­ to REMUNERATION OF UNOFFICIAL MEMBERS Mr. LEE: Before I say anything on the motion standin_g in my name in the Orde1 Paper, I desire to move an amend­ ment to the resolve clause so that the motion would read as follows:- that "WHEREAS it is desirable Unofficial Members of the Legislative Council and Executive Colony should be adequately ated for· their services; Council of this renuiner­ AND WHEREAS the Unofficial Members of the Legislative .
of the Island of Trinidad West Indian Colonies !J�, their respective and other are remunerated Colonies; Councils BE IT RESOLVED that this Hon­ to the ourable Council recommends G::ivernor that Unofficial Members of the Le_gislative he remunerated rate of $1.800 per annum with effect from the 1st January, Council of the Colony at the for their services 1948."

The ATTORNEY -GENERAL: I move that the Bill be now read a second time.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY se­ conded.

Motion put and agrel!d tu.


Bill read a second time.

I Jieg The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: to a to move that this Bill be referred of this Council as Select Committee nominated by His Excellency the Governor.

I have passed up the amendment to the Clerk of the Council, Sir, and I ask that it be adopted.

If hon.

Members.
If hon.

Members.

look at the motion as printed on the Order Paper they would see that the effect of this amendment official Memhei·s cil should be remunerated services with effect from the 1st January, instead in (a) and (b)in the resolve clause in the Order Paper.

at the rate of $1,800 per annum of the rates mentioned is that all Un­ for their 1948, of the Legislative Coun­ The COLONIAL SECRE'fARY sec­ An1endment put and agreed to.

onded.

Agreed to.
onded.

Agreed to.

Mr. LEE: This motion was originally tabled by my friend, Mr. Critchlow, who �- 997 Remuneratidn of 6 MAY, 1948.

Unofficial Members.

998 He so Trinidad Committees of Grenada, and ,..vc found recent times to Barbados.

re­ I feel services.

Council were receiving for t.'.

'leir was a Member of this Council and also a Member of the Executive Council.

brought up in the Labour Party this of pavment to Meml:Jers qqestion of this Council and decided to table a motion to give effect to it.
He and I travelled 'Vithin and Jamaica alcng with the hon.

Mr. Marr:rshow that in these islands and even in some of the smaller ones Members of the Lc,gislati"e n1.uneratio11, we would be making a ste·p forward in this Council if we decide to give Mem­ bers a remuneration for their services that they may devote the whole of their tin,e to the work of this Council sev�ral as a result must always rememher that of the 10-year Development Plan for the Colony there will be a lot 01 work t'.
'le to he done in this Council 'Nithin next few years.

Certain hon.

Members o:f will have to attend not only meetings this Council, Committees knowledc;e the advancement that is a responsibility have undertaken deavour to discharge.
I am not saying that t'ley do not ghre of their best, but I think they should be induced to give more of their time to the work of this Council and to see, among other things, that all expenditure the sanction and give the benefit of their experience and practical and the thereto.

but meetings of several of the Colony.

I feel with is undertaken of its Members.


the task should en­ which those who relating Vole for Those of us who are Elected Members of our stewa1·dship constituencies the responsibility we have to our we should keep to the I feel should realise to face in the years ahead and when we give an account respective with resoect the people informed of Government.

various policies that ,Nciuld take much time as well as a lot of travelling and attention, more or less by the way.
I feel that Your Excellency will permit a vote to be taken on this mot10n which is in the interest constituency, in Britis!i industries and at the present moment cattle - are being car­ ried on therein.

Within the next five or ten years we are going to have hydro­ <!lectric Guiana and several - timber, minerals but that is My on the ma'p, is the largest different power and other things to assist of the Unofficial Members. '
[ in the Colony and especially We have whic·:1. are within my of my legal practice.

and if we look at the forecast nt and each Mem­ should be able to keep in industnal developme ber of this Ccuncil himself informed on all the current affairs For myself, I within his constillency.
rnu$t sa:v that if I am to go into parts of the interior ronstit11ency it would take up very much of my time and I would be able to do very little also a large area and a large population­ some 57,000 2)cople in the Corentync of distric:t economic conditions pre­ '.oared by Mr. Huggins some time ago, I feel sure the hon ..

Member for Eastern Berbice would like to have that con­ stituenc?
he could devote his attention of a particular the development w_ill also have to devote their Mernl-:Jers to various attention rlrainage and irrigation un for the advancement All these things will make a heavy de­ mand on their time and I think it is but ri,ght tion for their services.

I have the great­ est pleasure, standing that they be given some remunera­ entirely area.

Hon.

divided into two parts so that Sir, in moving the motion and pro,gress of the Colony.

that would come in my name.


to problems relating to Mr. KENDALL seconded.

Mr. DEBIDIN: I think the hon.

Party I was one of those who opposed an:v measure of but mover of this motion will b!ear me out when I say hat at a meeting held by a certain very strongly payment to Members of this Council, majority in there was a substantial favour of it.

Unforhmately also, I was ahsent ,.vhen in Finance Committee unable to give my views.

However, I understand and that the Council tial majority put through.
that this measure should be the suggestion agreed by a substan­ was discussed and l was therefore that there was a compromise The PRESIDENT: Not tbe Council; the Finance Committee.

Mr. DEBIDIN: I am sorry, Sil'.

At I feel I should bow to the this n-,oment.

majority the meeting of the F1m,nce Committee, as I have already stated, I understand view as although I did not attend it 999 Remuneration of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Unofficial Members.
1,000 that the kno-wn that such a I would like to state my at any to reduce was the wish of the majority motion should be carried as amended.

Nevertheless, ow:n views before such a measure is passed.

In foe first place, I would like it to be publicly measure should not be regarded time as one which is intended the status of Members of this Council - their conscientiousness and their willing­ ness to serve and to du what they planned before the measure was brought forward.

Secondly.
Secondly.

I do hope that when general elections are held in futme candidates would not be constrained suffrage of he people merely because there 1s in the offing this question of pa;v­ but that ment to Members of this Council.

persons who are public-minded and well qualified would come forward and be guided b;v a willin.gness to serve and conscientiousness of the people as a whole.

That alone should be the guiding princi9le.


tion is that so far as the Members of this Council it is necessary that a suitable of the Constitution be made so tnat thi,, measure should not operate to the disability ing election are concerned amendment of persons seek­ in the interest My third observa­ to this Council in future.

to seek the • • • � of applying Far be it from me - therefore.

by any desire to be paid for we have rendered here and at large.
For rny own Mr. PETERS: I desire to repeat what I ,aid some time age «nd that is, those of us who would vote for this motion are not actuated the services to the community 'part it seems to be a question one's self to the task in hand and the question of the time that one has to con­ sume here away from one's regular voca­ tion.

The two elements, are time and servicE:.


and I say it for the other Members also­ to be paid for service If we have grown up sufficiently to feel that time is of monetary value to most people, then we should address our minds to the fact that this should be re­ garded as an honorarium for the task in hand rather than as a recompense service, mercenary in our desirE:: to serve t'he interest of our Colony.

On the other hand.
On the other hand.

when it comes to the question of time, I for one admit value and it is for that reason I am pre­ pared to vote for this motion.

for after all we should never be that it has monetary to one's homeland.

for best.

but it is a recompense Mr. SEAFORD: I am going to say placed on the to do their promises it works out to $37,800 per annum.

but I do not think what he was what he meant to conueyed w'ho have straightaway that I am opposed to this motion.
My first reason is that I cannot see what this Coiony is going to get for the expenditure of this sum of money.

I e;1ink The hon.

mover of the motion said he has suggested it because he hoped that all Members would be able to give two or three days a week to the work of the Council, actuall;v convey.

I do feel that peo'ple taken the Oath of.

Allegiance duty here should gi"e of their best whether they are riaid or not.

I cannot agree with the construction motion by the hon.
Member for Western BerbicE: - that in an.v case the.v would gi"e of t':1efr for time lost.

Dming election time every candidate that he would do this and the: other and I feel that this sum of $40.000 ronghly, rier annum could be much better employed, it is by increasing meagre for the poor peopie in the Colony.

than hy lining the pockets of Members of bis Council.

This is not a rich countr.v and I think there is a lot that can he done with this sum of money rather than spending have haci some hon.
Mem))ers saying during consideration we are s'pendm,e; this 1T1otion todaY.

I 'have also heard a lot of com­ ment outside Colony was comoarecl Trinidad, hut condit10n both of those islands and I hope we will never see in this Colony what have seen taking place in those islands within recent times.

Agarn, t':�is Council has been compared with the Mother of Parliaments but conditions are totally Unned Kmgctom from those which obtain in this Colony.
too m1,ch money and yet has been brought forward old age pension which is very where Members are paid, of this Colony is above that of this Council in which this of the Estimates that it in thi� way.

We different ·whether in the we with Jamaica and I do feel· that the political The Parliament of England sits con­ tinuously with a break of a couple of weeks now and then.

A Member of Paliament represents not 2,000 or 3,000 people but 30,000 or 40,000 or 50,000 people.
Their correspondence is so large 1,001 Remunerdfion of 6 MAY, 1948.

Unofficial Members.

1,002 a in from all of I would which, God Events", pub­ magazine involved.

expenses."

pny is $12,500 and and t·hen'l­ politicians" and I am prepared set uv in this Colony to keep them in touch wit'a what should be.
Many of them have out that which I undertook are paid and this was the reply: I feel that condi• different for them to keep a private and a stenographer, and 1!hey have so much to do that it is essential secretary whom have to be paid.

A very large number of them live a great distance away from the House of Parliament.

it means they have to maintain selves away from home and that entails a large sum of money.
The emoluments they draw cannot cover the actual ex­ penditure tions there are totally fhose .in a Colony such as this.

Another thing is, I am very much afraid that by payment of Members of this Council we are going to breed of what I may call "professional and parasitical forbid, the gift of the gab and payment will be inducement a terrific forward as candidates Council.

here, and I can rely on the good sense of the people.
That is the fear I have, and I would like Members to consider this, matter from that angle.

I cannot help thinking · that this amount of roughly $40,000 I feel we can use that money for the benefit of the poor people of this Colony who are in such dire need today.

I am sure, if hon.

Members agree to hand it back for the benefit they would be very much ,happier in their consciences very much better in their beds.

carrying Finance Committee to stick by that now.


In looking up material for support of this motion.

I came across a little pamphet called a little "Current lished in the U.S.A. for the benefit of children is going on.

In it I read that a boy in what Con­ eighth grade at school asked gressmen "/1.

Congressman's $2,500 fo1' his travelling � like to ask.
having heard such statements as Members would be lining their pockets rather than provide for the poor of the Colony, are foe Members of this Legis­ so super­ lative Council in their loyalty ior to the Members of Parliament who are payment?

I am very glad to receiving hear the hon.

the Fi,·st Mem­ Nominated ber and the hon.

the Third Ncminated Member make the same statement that bey are opposed to payment.

Those Members said we should leave the money to augment Old Age Pension.
Should I not he entitled to leave a pension for these who csme after me.

I serve my people, is correct, his hire.

I think the principle it is ju�t.

Some time ago in Parliament the Hon.

Mr. Creech Jones, when asked in which Colonies Legislature Members of the Legislative not remunerated Barbados and British Guiana the principle of Members of the Legislativ approved of strong local support the Colonial action until after the ernment.

in 1947."
in 1947."

General Elections hut in the absence of evidence ' to this I hope it will not be tile case but in of payment e Council is to them to come for election and I would like to as,sociate can be better emplo�•ed.
and every workman is worthy of are not paid, said that "the Britis1;1 Honduras, and the:v would sleep of the poor people, in British Guiana, with tne remarks the Memb2rs of the deferred Council are Gov­ to have the ability Mr. RAATGEVER: I am opposed to the payment of Members of the Legisla­ tive Council, myself most heartily made by the hon.

the First Nominated Member, Mr. Seaford.


I feel Members should consider it an honour to be in a 'Oosition their fellow citizens, Members should give of their best with­ out payment.

I have • always given of and I my best in anything will continue to do so.

I think it is a waste of money, whic'h we cannot afford at the present this table and vote ourselves payment for services to serve and I feel that $40,000 as to the Colony.
time, for us to sit around I undertook, Dr. GONSALVES: I rise in support of the motion, and while I do so I am only The PRESIDENT: What is the hon.

Member quoting from ?

,.

Dr. GONSALVES: A Press re"port We of Parliament.

too, that in Jamaica the Members with the exception of the proceedings notice, of the Legislature, of the Speaker of the House whose pay is $220 and $75 as travelling are paid.

I take great exception which have been made.


Am I statements to understand that our loyalty to t:1at of the Legislators of those other allowance, is supreme to certain • ,i 1,007 Remuneration of LEGISLATI VE CouNtIL.

Unofficial Members.

1,008 in such a himself position and I did not see were it.

The 1'easons in such a position and compensated as to be the people should be I will give an from my own persc-nal said openly that I would support it.
I will repeat now the reasons I gave then for supporting that there are quite a number of pec,ple Guiana who are capable in British of con­ very well and ably to the tributing of this Colony, but who are government not in a financial to enable them to serve to give the full time necessary as Members of the Legislative Council without causing them very �erious embarrassment, financial any reason whatever why any person finding capable of serving denied the chance of serving regards clear that while I support the motion I will not use a single cent c,f any money paid to me as a Member of the Legisla­ ture for my own benefit.
If the motion goes through and I am paid, I have already decided the use I will put that money to.

It will not line my pocket, but it will go to very many people and, I am sure, it will be very well spent.

So in order to fulfil the electorate motion.

committees.
committees.

Therefore it is absolutely he knows _ and in his conscience necessary, that what I am saying is right, that a Member, who has to earn his living and who is elected by the people of this Col­ c·ny to serve them in the Legislative for the should be compensated Council, time he devotes to the interests of his constituency manner as to enable him to maintain the dignity of his position.

instance enca.
instance enca.

You have aquatic at Bartica, I am not a rich man, but I know that it is in the interest of the public and of the Colony that such things be encou1'aged, give tc,wards and yet I ·cannot If, however, that I can aJiord.

compensated, as the hon.

Member for Cen­ tral Demerara says, I would not only b� able to devofe more of my time to my constituents jects with subscriptions carry on such things.

Many of the chari­ ties that ask assistance are deserving respond because I cannot afford it.
But I am a public man and as such the pay­ ment of $150 to Members of the Legisla­ tive Ccuncil of me that I know o"'f help I cannot fittingly still another promise to the their pro­ so that they can myself I am making it perfectly I am going to support Mr. LEE: I desire to reply to the com­ it more I am being will not line my pocket.

but to encc-urage sports being held a portion them.

As experi­ of my constituency.

Re­ Adult Suf­ Demerara.

Universal to say that thosa I would like further Members.
In dealing of the Combined Court, went only at the time of election on which Adult Suffrage is based is that ments of the several with my friend, the hon.
Member for who is a me.,nber Eastern of the Labour Party and as such he accepted the Labour Party's policy which gives every Member who holds that ticket the privi­ lege of advocating frage, I may say, the principle Universal every democratic country shall have the by the majority right to ha�•e men elected vcte to be the representatives legislative body, and for such services not in a meas­ they must be recompensed ure to line their _pockets but so thnt they should give of their best to the public.
this stage I shall deal with the comment of the hon.

the First Nominated Member.

When I say "give of their best" I mean this: Take the hon.

Member as he stands, for example.

Were it not for the position he could not devote as much of his time, even if elected by the public to the Legislative the Committees does.
I knew he has the greatest of the country who were the Members of the Legislature in the early days, either as Members of the Court of Policy or as Financial presentatives to the elctorate when they sought the honour to be elected.

But today it is a different picture.

Any member of your constitu­ ency may send you a telegram summoning you to be on the spot, and it is not enough for you to remain in Georgetown of your constituency.
for the time you devote to therefore, such work that some compensation should be given so as to permit of your running your house in such a manner as to command the respect and due regard of the public?

I may give another instance.

times the area known as Met-en-Meer Zorg in Wakenaam was flooded and a telegram that my services Georgetown give.. My presence was sent to me stating were needed.

I could not stay in interest on those and look after the interests and see what help I could he holds.
in his company Within quite recent on which he serves as he at heart in serving Is it not right, was required Council, and all to give in the At ' 1,009 Remuneration of 6.MAY, 1948.Unofficial Members.

1,010 this Council I frequently in Wakenaam it-would loss to me in visiting to the resi­ or otherwise encouragement dents.

Were it not that I have mv own house and relatives have meant financial there and doing what I could to assist in For another Member it thE: situation.
would have meani his staying at the Government the expenses nothing at all for so doing.

Rest House and paying all of his stay there and getting to my clients.

In attending have to give up my professional and I have had to return fees paid to I do not me in fain1ess say that I need compensation, but I know t'.

:1at to this Council bu,t cannot be .elected spare the time because they are fully and other occupied in professional duties.
there are certain persons who might work, which free to their in those Colonies of the various Committees.

Can those Members who preached adult suffrage say that they c;m ?

In the records of the Council are questions universal afford to give their services constituents previous were: asked by Mr. Jacob, a former of Members Member, as to the attendance at meetings because a Now it would be different, Member would have to account for every minute of the day that he devotes to public service.
active interest Government avoiding waste have been occasions when I :have drawn the attention things, certain sums of money have been saved.

This sum of $37,800 by the Coiony, and those Members who feel that they should not be paid could return it to the Government.

of Heads of Departments as a result of whirh large Members should take an in the affairs of various to Jamaica and Trinidad.

If we preach democracy we must it in a way that we should get from every man.

The hon.

are paid.
The hon.

are paid.

I would like that those Colonies are clamouring by leaps practise sincerity Member referred and what 11as happened where legislators him to understand whic':1 more payment and bounds.

They are getting more from the Mother Country, and assistance from out­ more money is being invested Guiana is getting.

side than poor British As far as I know there are capitalists Jamaica extending modation and doing everything encoura,ge Members of the Legislature doing everything the Colony.
In Trinidad fae Legislature to the tourist traffic, and there are of the Memhers of paid.

of public funds.

There will be money well spent for the improvement their hotel accom­ are advancing Departments legislators are also with a view to in for Mr. SEAFORD: Will to in Member tell us the financial Trinidad.

that of this Colony ?

and Jamaica as compared with the hon.


position of Mr. LEE : I agree that J'am�ica and are in 2. better financial vusition Trinidad than this Colony, but the public men of utmost to those Colonies foster local industries and sugar.

are doing their such as milk, cattle The PRESIDENT : I do not want to f' the hon.

Member, but isn't he interrupt going on too long on t:his particular point?

be paid so that After all $5 per day cannot pay I feei sure that Members \'.lould not as one hon.
The Labour Party it was _necessary that Members be lining their pockets, Member suggested.

saw t:i1at of the Council should they should devote their time to public service.

On my visit a Member of this Council.

to the Potaro I got a free passage, but I had to pay for the lorry which took me to various places.

I paid $17 out of my to hotel and other own nocket in addit10n .

Members should incid�n,tai not be out of pocket in giving public If I have to visit the Potaro service.
again I would have to travel by plane, paying $20 each way, to consult stituents, Manv Members of this Council did line theh: nockets long ago, but what has become-of them ?

Many of them have lost their seats.

I regret that the hon.

Nominated Member used those words.

which it is my duty to do.

expenses.

my con­ Mr. LEE: 1 am only trying to point things in reply to the state­ out certain ment rnade by the hon.

the First Member (Mr. Seaford), Nominated will leave it at that.
There is only one thing 1 would like to say and that is that I wish he would withdraw his reference to "professional and parasitical" Members.

but I i,011 Unofficial Members.

1,012 E.D.

Water Conservancy.

LEGISLATIVE CouNciL ... : I said it would lead Mr. SEAFORD to the introduction parasitical they exist today.

I do not t:1ink I said I ho'ped it would of professional I did not say that they do.

politicians.

not lead to that.


and of the amount to on the question as the original cussion be paid, changed.

I assume that all the Members who spoke in favour of the motion were also in favour of t'.1.e sidered that amount was justified.

amount and con­ figure has.

been Mr. LEE : I will accept that.

I • as would justify submit that it would of the Colony t!

:iGt hope that those who are elected sincerely to this Council will give such since,:e their re,Nard.
service There is nothing more I can say except that I respectfull_v be in the interest Members be paid for their services, only in this Council in studying and attendin!:!

Committees.

m�kmg progress.

responsibilities n1ore meetmgs of the varioHs After all the Colony is are increasing but· behind the scenl'., and onr duties and the various and laws, reports more and not The PRESIDENT: Was it the hon.
Member for Eastern Demcrara who to knuiv whether there were any ,vanted legal difficulties in the matt1:r?

Mr. DEBIDIN: Yes.

sir.

T:1.e PRESIDENT : The point will have to be looked into.

I will now put the amended motion.

The Council divided and voted :-- For-Messrs. Phang, Peters, Kendall, Farnum, Thompson, Debictm, Fernandes, Lee, Dr. Jagan, Dr. Gonsalves Singh-11 and Dr. Against-Messrs. Raatgever, Roth and Seaford-3 , Did not vote - Mr. Mc Doom, the Colonial and the Colonial Treasurer, Secretary-4.
the Attorney-General Motion carried.

The PRESIDENT: 1 may tell hon.

Members, that the remuneration of having Memners of the Council Unofficial of the by the majority been accepted it in Members, I am accepting Unofficial and in due course the Colonial princi'ple, vote to will put the necessary Treasurer the Finance Committee.
myself that there had been _more dis- I could wish DRAINAGE OF EAST DEMERARA WATER CONSERVANCY AREA Mr. DEBIDIN : Sir, I beg to move the mot10n standrng :- as follows m my name which reads ·'WHEREAS the East Demerara Water of an area of 221 square of millions four sluices per day is far in excess Conservanc.v its waters in wet seasons miles releases through exclusively into the Mahaica river.

and this volume · of thousands .


of cubic feet of water released of what the river can discharge and would inevitably cause abnormal floodrngs of the lands not only on either bank of t'.1e Mahaica river but also of s lands in the Mahaicony and also aback of villages between Mahaicony districts Grove.
river district and other and Golden oer day, and suitable AND WHEREAS the aforesaid areas for oroduc­ of essential are most fertile tion in ver:v large quantities foodstuffs source o:f very large supplies cattle, and edible-oil, ground provisions, and has been in the past a and eggs., coconuts milk, poultry of rice, etc.

AND WHEREAS with the present rainfall there has been most serious and heavy loss of such foodstuffs.
in the above referred have a very adverse effect on the Colon:v's food su'pply and general economv and all this is likely to recur with every wet season ; to areas w'.hich would AND WHEREAS the clearing by of the Mahaica and Mahaicoriy dredging river mouths would considerably improve tI-re drainage areas.
of the above AND WHEREAS from the point of development and the of peasant farming in and of the above areas which are view of colonial encouragement the Colony and the preservation protection largely settled noted for large production it is most .
desirable conditions drainage to improve the of the said areas ; upon and are already as aforesaid, BE IT RESOLVED that this Hon­ Council, Legislative ourable the great need for better draina_ge ditions recommends immediate con­ and in the :Colony, approves take that Government all steps to have· discharged recognising i,013 Drainage of 6 MAY, 1948.

E.D.W.

Conservancy Area.


1,014 during the wet seasons the water of the East Demerara Water Conservancy exclusively into the Demerara river and no longer into the Mahaica river, and in this respect and for better drainage of the above areas this Council ap'proves ate undertaking Government (a)The building by works :- necessarv of the following of t::1e and commencement and recommends the immedi­ out- let or outlets, fo1· water from the East Demerara Water Conservancy area to the Demerara river.
., (b)The dredging of the mouths of the Maha1ca and Mahaiconv the clearing -of all overhanging trees and bushes at the various bends in these rivers, rivers and and (c)The erection of another pumping unit within the area between Golden Grove Village and Belfield on the East Coast Demerara."

The Mahaica district is known to of at one time.

There came a time .. river people occupy 41,473 acres making a total of Most of this land has been for a number of years, and prosperity most, if not all hon.

Members.
Members.

On both banks of the Ma.haica by absolute ownership land, while 11,638 acres are held under lease and permissions, 53,111 acres.

occupied there was considerable distdct when the East Demerara Water Con­ servancy extended miles.

I understand extended, therefore located between the Mahaica river and be Demerara river.

and embracing a considerable ocrtion of land in between.

Here (indicating between Georgetown its area to 221 square that it has since been but I am not sure.
We must think of 221 square miles of land south of the coastlands, on the chart) is the coastland and Mahaica- ,.

in the I:!

T,1e text of the motion fully explains to Goldsmith's M2mbers know the district very well.

Thc PRESIDENT : I thingk hon.

ito: object.

Most hon.

Members will remember that in m�r maiden speech in this Council I referred Villa,gc".
After nearly 10 ''Deserted years of very close association with the people in the Mah«ica district, fully acquainted vailing in that area, I ca1111<Jt r?.calling Gold.

;mith, impressed with the cnnclitiorn; pre­ help that v0ry famous poem by by 6e lines which read : and being and I am particularly Mr. DEBIDIN : I just want to show I understand the size of the area on the chart.
In this area there were at one time no less than eight rice mills, a fact which is an indica­ tion of the extent to which rice was cultivated in the Mahaica area.

I may recall the names of Alexander Paul of Melville.

that one of the largest rice mills ever erected in this Colony was mortgaged & Cameron for something of $63,000.

of the considerable of padi pro­ duced in that area at that time.

There is only one mill left in the area today, and it is still owned by Abdool Kadir.
to Messrs. Thom quantity ;n the region That alone is an indication C it is a and Abary rivers as, well are large numbers of cattle Apart from rice 'production district.

I will the Council later very large cattle-rearing be able to convince that the flooding affects not only the Mahaica area but the areas of the Mahaicony where the1·e and poultry.
The figures supplied show that there are 32,683 head of cattle, 384 horses, 2 mules, 645 donkeys, 2,469 pigs, 2,970 sheep, 526 goats, 35,633 fowls, 789 turkeys and 5,494 ducks.

The figures show too that the Mahaica river district, to which I am directing particular attention, of the total of each head I have enumerated, a fair proportion contributes me "Ill fares the land, to hastening ills a Where wealth nc:cumulates, ::mcl man and lords may flourish.
or may prey: decay: Princes fade, has made; pride, A breath cah make them, as a breath But a bold 'peasantry, their country's When once destroyed; can never be supplied."

I feel it is my duty to describe the can within to me, and I pro­ area as briefly as 1 possibiy the short time allotted pose to do so with the help of sotne charts 'N:1ich I have brought here.

After I have described the locality to give the Council a factual of tl,e problems in that area.
It was not possihle for me to provide a copy of these charts for each Member, therefore I will hold them up in such a way that Members may be able to see.

I propose picture 1,015 Drainage of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

E.D.W.

Conservancy Area.

1,016 of in wet season were received floods and the Board show that 'per da:v-for distribution Abary creek, per week-an average 1.200 gallons the City.
During the present there has been abnormal figures from the Control last week only 124 gallons from from the Mahaica creek.

132 gallons creek, and none from the the Mahaicony Abary district.

lt is dear from all the facts that the area between the Mahaica and the Abc1ry creeks is a very large area of import.

;rnt producing these including comml'clitics, and cat Ue apart from other subsidiary commodities firewood, provisions, which come from the creek lands.
ground timber and so forth like eggs, poultr:v, and F>ssential rice, milk and for that reason hon.

have to consider economy of the Colony.

its importance in the Members will .. ,; '!

the in the 3,000 acres are under rice culti­ As regards rice production estimates for the Autumn crop show that 15,831 acres are under cultivation area between Mahaica and Abary, whicn is a very large proportion of the area under rice cultivation in the Colonv.

Roughl:v vation in the Mahaica river area alone.


The report of the B.G.

Rice Marketing Board which has just been handed to us shows that the quantity to the mills during the crop ended on the 30t:1 September, 1,169,025 bags equivalent of rice.

If 3,000 acres of land are avail­ able for rice cultivation yield in that a1·ea is 30 bags per acre, one would expect a yield from that area alone of 90,000 bags of padi equivalent to 45,000 bags of rice.
That, I respect­ fully submit, able of producing quantity Mahaica district 1946, amounted to to 513,929 bags of food, and this is in the shows that the area is cap­ of padi delivered a considerably large and the average only.
and discouragement 1 I venture to say that they would of them are migratir,g and were produci1:g they are i:1 a There i� still a large however, in the :v, totall.i11g especiall to conditions I would like to make, the ,1oint that while I said the people in th:·se areas­ were very prospercus much at one time, tccla�, state of frustration and the majority to other districts.
number of families, Mahaica River district about 2,000 persons who are willing carry on, but if the 'present continue life of have to migrate also.

The .family all these people would therefore be ruined and they would have to go to the four corners '.)'.

the Colony to seek an That is why I think the quota­ existence.

which I made just tion from Goldsmith now is very apt indeed.

There is very much more that I can say in painting a picture its ability the products point out, briefly.
that the Colony at this time-and this over and over again has been emphasized by you, Sir, and b:v other Members in and eYen by the Colonial this Council, Office in one way or another-should produce more than it has been producing in the past.

Not only must it produce for local consum'ption, sufficient must produce sufficient its products Indies and elsewhere.
therefore, have been talking from year to year about land settlement establish peasantry of this area in order to stress to produce and the value of a prosperous in this.

Colony ; we have been but it to permit some of is on more production.

-and progressive that it is very important which come from it.

I must The emphasis, to be exported in order to to the West We all know in this area, and that In the Mahaicon:v Milk Control (Defence) of course, production Scheme.
Then item of food and other areas of land available is t'l.e total quantity 15,831 acres and if we take the same average yield - 30 bags of padi per acre-it means that thev can bags of produce a total of some 450,000 padi, including, from the Rice Ex'pansion there is another important which is produced is milk.

The milk from this area supplies principally.


Georgetown, that two years ago Government passed the Georgetown Regulations ally all the milk produced comes to Georgetown among the inhabitants Here then is a very important commodity a very important the City of Georgetown.

Mahaica creek alone a total of 2,097 e1allons of milk oer week is !
;ent to Georgetown relating Milk Control that 2,097 gallons Mahaica creek, Mahaicony by the show Board in Geor.getown from the are received 4,230 gallons from the creek and 2,100 from the part of the Colony - From the as a result of which practic­ from this area which serves in nor;;,_al times.

The figures for distribution to milk actually of the City.

in this area received We , 1,017 Drainage of 6 MAY, 1948.

E.D.W.

Conservancy Area.


1,018 has been achieved That is why this motion would conditions the people to 'produce hoping that prevailing have encouraged much more than they have done in the past, but very little in this respect.

becomes very very important, is why we have to give ver�· sympathetic consideration people.

If we are to be sincere the needs and the interest I think this motion is a challenge sincerity I have referred.
to that and to the cmnmunily to which as regards of the people, to the demands of these and that I think, Sir, this is the stage at which problem It is a report dealing in with the and I should refer to the particular which this Ea:;;t Demerara Water Con­ servancy poses.

It seems to me that we must attach a P,reat deal of importance to the re'port which was made bv Mr. G. 0.

Case and which was laid over in this Council at its fifth session 1939-40.
E!lst Demerara Water Conservancy t>f the Mahaica River area, the flooding Paoer No.

3 of 1940. and it is Sessional With your permission, Sir, I wish to refer to this report from time to time.

It is clear from this report that the Con­ serves a useful purpose and servancy is not ,me d the this deb,tte therefore, Mnhaica River versus the East Demerarn Water Conservancy.
that we must have the one or the other ; my contention appears to me that the initial in the fact that when that Conserv:mc:: to was built it was intended supply .the East Coast �ugar estates with water.
That brings me to the measures being introduced Bonasika conservancies through large sources-the the Essequibo Rivers, in the case of the East Demerara Water the water should have been Conservancy through the Demerara River discharged of that or the Mahaica River, but instead of the there has been an interruption normal course of nature.

schemes.

These are in effect e water is that vve need both.


It It is not a question by the Torani and the which will discharg particularly Berbice and error lies As far as I have been able to trace, this conservancy was established time after 1897 in order that the sugar estates on the coastlands, Georgetown, as well as the City of should be supplied and the privately owned estates with some respectively-and ).

that were erected were erected to the conservancy and the owned lands.
The result was It seems that the in more water should be con­ felt-and water.

Dams were built all along the conservancy and two sluices in the area whece the Lama canal flows into the conservancy.

need arose to enlarge order that served as it was probably can be gleaned from this report-that in dry weat:1er there would not be sufficient water to supply the sugar estates II privately that two other sluices e the water into the Mahaica discharg River during the wet season.

Mr. Case's /'I report.


to put it in a nutshell, advocate very strongly erecting $24,000 but also to discharge irrigation from the conservancy.

otherwise might break down and possibly t:1e coastlands.

what Mr. Case recommended asking Your Excellency able Council to consider of discharging the conservancy in future, instead the Mahaica River.
not only to solve the question the water the dams endanger was the surplus water from into the Demerara River it into of discharging seems to the need for at a cost of of That, in a nutshell, the advisability two extra sluices and this honour­ and I am I base my contention on certain facts except the is found to be a extends nearer to the there is no difficulty out the suggestion of finance which, I respectfully can be easily overcome and and they are these : In the first place, this conservancy Demerara River than to the Mahaica River and, secondly, in carrying question suggest, should not be allowed to be a stumbling block if the suggestion good one.
The Maduni creek and the Lama Canal which connect the con­ servancy with the Mahaica River are narrow and not ca'oal:>le t the water properly and others missioners' responsible should have sought an outlet into the Demerara River long ago.

If that had been done we would not have been faced today with the loss and suffering conservancy Mahaica River district.

into water is not discharged this surplus the Demerara River there are other places where it could be discharged out disadvantage with­ to anyone.
I am not to residents in the even if Thirdly, for its maintenance of the Conservancy of discharging and I think the Com­ is causing which the 1,019 Drainage of LEGISLATIVE CoUNCIL.

E.D.W.

Conservancy Area.

1,020 Mr. SEAFORD : May I ask the hon.

Member to read the next paragraph ?


unaware of the fact that Mr. Case has stated in his report that if the water passes through Friendship Demerara River it would have to pass through pegasse land and it would be necessary cases to convey clay in order to make up the dam properly.

to dig deeper and in some on the Mr. DEBIDIN : I would like the hon.

b·e now­ by cuts v.rould that lower in digging that he is right I challenge that it is quite cubic feet.

Then he area as 360 sq.


miles Supply, Brickery Mr. Case has given some into the Mahaica River.

Member to know that I am a_n:vone to say, however, to dig a canal-I am not dealing of expenditure the boundary of Pln.

is fairly close indeed.

It of water from the con­ into the Demerara River as is that Mr. Case has suggested down the Demerara River-that is by Support, Plns.

Relief, and Land of Canaan-there a canal.


As a much difficulty to this chart matter of fact, according between which I have here, the distance the western boundary of the Mahaica River and the eastern Friendship seems to me, therefore, possible with the question which would be able to discharge same quantity servancy being discharged In this respect figures.
in his report and I am going to draw my own conclusions According quantity daily from the Mahaica River under present conditions to flood the lands on the western side -70 cubic feet ; and, with­ is about 114,000,3 out flooding the lands on the eastern about 92,000,000 that in a period of 31 days the maximum discharge without flooding the eastern mately 2,852,000,000 figures are based on one of the heaviest periods were 27 .74 inches in one: month of 31 days.
They also show that the present m�ximum discharges Mahaica River to the sea without the land on either side are, from the right bank, 2,852,000,000 the left bank 3,534,011,470 Nominated going to draw my own conclusions from and if he thinks I am wrong this report, he can reply to them.

in those conclusions On both banks of the Demerara River there is what is known as a catchment with area and the first thing I disagree in this report is that Mr. Case refers here to both banks right away down to the Maduni.
I venture to think that the ·Demerara River itself discharges part of area.

I the water from the catchment that to give the area of the suggest, Mahaica catchment is an exaggeration, but I am going to argue on the assumption when he says that the run-off from the 360 sq.
miles Mahaica Catchment Area is 13,920,242,688 states that the maximum relie'-'ed cubic feet; and in dams is 1,928,448,000 of the Lama and the maximum discharge 3,476.563,200 Maduni sluices, What I make of all these figures is that in one taking the amount of rainfall month as 27.74 inches and the run-off as then the 60 per cent.

of the rainfall, amount of water to be relieved in 31 days cubic feet.

If then will bP.
If then will bP.

8,545,482,317 the river can discharge average of 30,926,520 cubic feet, then it would not be able to discharge all the water properly, exclusive from the catchment .consider into the Mahaica River a discharges matter of nearly 1 ½ times more water than it can take off, and so there must be flooding of lands in the area.

That is my point.

Rain does not fall every day and some 50 per cent.


·has to be allowed for eva'poration, total rainfall with the amount of water the river is per day, we will capable of discharging find that the river is incapable off all the surplus servancy bouring lands get flooded.

from them.

to Mr. Case, the maximum but when we take the in the area and compare it side, cubic feet.

He also states of water which can be discharged The PRESIDENT : Aren't the figures in the report?

Is it necessary printed the hon.


Member to repeat them again?

with the result that the neigh­ side of the river is approxi­ that this conservancy without commencing on record-when cubic feet, and from cubic feet.

These water from the con­ in 31 days from the , therefore, area.

We have to of rainfall of the amount a net daily cubic feet.

the land on cubic feet.

flooding of taking there for � Mr, DEBIDIN : They are on page 6 Mr. SEAFORD : What about radia- tion and evaporation?

of the report.
of the report.

1,021 Drainage of 6 MAY, 1948.

E.D.W.

Conservancy Area.

1,022 Mr. SEAFORD: May I ask where the hon.

Member gets those figures from?

Mr. DEBIDIN: At the bottom of page 5 of the report.

The PRESIDENT: T,he hon.

Member sh,ould put his figures and deductions down in writing for all to see.

It is extremely.

difficult for hon.

Members of 0 this Council im.

to follow h Mr. DEBIDIN: If the opportunity is Your Excel­ given me to do so.
I daresay lency might adjourn at this stage as I would like to do so.

The figures are all here and all the Members have not had the opportunity before them.

Nominated report with w.hich he is very familiar.

and I would ask him to read page 6.

It sa:vs there: Member I would say it is a of having this report In answer to the hon.

"When the New Conservancy Dam the area of the Consel·­ there is 27.74 inches.

of rain­ is completed vancy will be 221 square miles.
If therefore fall in one month and the run-off 60 per cent.

of the rainfall, then the amount of water to be relieved in 31 days will be 8,545,482,317 cubic feet".

Mr. SEAFORD: That is not water going into the Ma.haica a release sluice the hon.

Member Creek.

There is at Land of Canaan which does not know about.

Mr. DEBEDIN: The hon.

Member knows as much as I do that the sluice at Land of Canaan is too small and does not function.
Mr. SEAFORD: It is a 16 ft. sluice as big as the Lama and Maduni sluices.

t To say it does not function You have to deduct the amount of water t: flowing through it into the Demerara River.

The hon.

Member is suggesting that all the water flows into the Mahaica Creek.

is not correct.

, The PRESIDENT : I doubt whether I suggest those any Member of the Council follows figures and draws the correct conclusion.

The hon.

Member is talking about thousands of millions.


that he may reduce those figures to writing.

We have before us a report by Mr. Case, an expert on this subject.

the whole thing and drawn a definite conclusion.

entitled that conclusion, I suggest that the figures he is quoting merely make the matter involved and very difficult for one to follow.

The hon.

Member is quite to challenge He has gone into but Mr. DEBIDIN: Your Excellency, I have said before, an expert's report.
time to explain it so should understand.

as we are dealing with I took a very long that every Member Mr. ROTH: As a fact every time the sluices at MahaicoPJy are flooded.

open in the wet weather the lands has said even with­ Government Mr. DEBIDIN: As the hon.

Nomin­ ated Member has said that, if he assures me that he and other Members of the Council will support the motion I would sit down.
I anticipate is going to entrench itself behind the report which deals with this matter and is going to say that its ex'pert that the w.hole river is flooded out the water from the Conservancy area: That in a nutshell is what this report says.

If hon.

Members would spare the time to follow me I would make it simple for them to follow.

That river has its own water from an exact area to dis-· charge, from the Conservancy charged through little Mahaica River.
I have established figures I have given that the Conservancy discharges nearly one and a half times as much water as the river.

If the river has its own water normally which we will call "one," and the Con­ servancy discharges river, and a half times its normal work.

That is what the figures disclose-2,852,000,000 cubic feet maximum discharge by the river from its catchment 8,545,000,000 vancy discharging its water into the the river would then have to do two cubic feet with the Conser­ into the· river.
which is dis­ creeks into the and on top of it there is the water to discharge, area as against by The COLONIAL SECRETARY: This and this Council has been sit­ seems to be a very highly technical question, ting and listening to a sort of argument that might be fought out in a Court.

Really it does seem to me that if the hon.

Member is disputing a very highly i,023 Drainage of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

E.D.W.

Conservancy Area.

1,024 ;J • ,.


Committee it would be very much it on the Public and then, if debate it in this Council.

of a highly technical report, better that he disputes Works Advisory not satisfied, go through all the technicai argument between Nominated Member motion seems to be an unusal position for this Council the hon.

the First and the Mover of the report on areas of water in an details to be in.
To Mr. DEBIDIN: Sir, I do not like the to prepare but these figures are not what I to sav that W.hile Secretary the report.· hon.

the Colonial I am disputing - I dis­ agree with scme of the findings I do not dispute the report itself, because much of what this report has we have to accept and, I think, Members are becom­ ing alarmed.

It is usually so when one has not had an op1portunity figures, ·produce but what is stated in the report.
I think Members are forgetting the small point made w.:1en I am quoting this report and, therefore, I shall leave the fi,gures out and make my point, but I had thought l should just state how I came to think as The Mahaica Ri,.

'er without attaching Given the Conservancy and a half times the amount of water that it can discharge.

Mr. Case says: is this: h,!s a duty to perform the Conservancy I do.

The small point area it has two area.


the Conservancy right up to its �ource, in which case every time the water is being discharged it is at be rate of nearly 200 million cubic feet per day.

In other words, what it has to do without area, I venture to say, will be within its means of discharging.
With evapora­ tion and a b,·eak in the weather - the rains not falling break of a day or two - it will have sufficient water and on the other .hand it has to do 2½ or 3½ ti.mes its work, according to Mr. Case, is it right to make it do 5 % times its work by adding the Conservancy water to it?

That is my point.

Let that water from the Conservancy into the Demerara River.

time to catch up with the extra be discharged every day, a short the water level will drop.
If of dis­ said the Land alternative If this motion and the suggestion I have made are acce'pted, there is a practical and possible charging all that water into the Demerara River.

· Mr. Case himself of Canaan sluice discharges 717,894,900 cubic feet of water in 31 days.

To.at shows that if one sluice can discharge all that water more sluices should be built to discharge water and so relieve estates boundary which are much nearer to the Demerara of the River than the eastern Mahaica area.
That is the main point of this debate.

Why let the Mahaica River be flooded I must refer hon.

Members to what Mr. Case says in his report: the entire Conservancy very near to the western unnecessarily?

that site and those boundar:v • � "Apart from the Conservancy water more than 3 1/2 times more water than the river can discharge its Catchment goes to the river from area."

That is not how I see it.

Council water was into the Mahaica River the the they are experiencing today.
I and this hon­ to consider the feasibility that water entirely into The point 1 wish to make is this: Before the Conservancy discharged people .had not been experiencing difficulty am asking Your Excellency ourable of discharging the Demerara River.

What I am trying to show is that the water from the Con­ servancy that river as it is more than the river can discharge it must flood the river.

The point will be seen in what I have to say now.


Suppose a crop of rice is planted been a flooding that water, be reduced by evaporation flow.

Mr. Case in his report has himself admitted and there has of the Catchment with its own water.
Therefore as I have pointed out, will that the river is tidal of flooding and by tidal is in itself ca'pable area, "I therefore regret to have to come that the embanking to the conclusion of these lands is at the present time neither and that the best thing to do would be to offer the settlers .nor feasible, economic drained land elsewhere".

Then on page 9 of his report he goes on to say: to sell or lease purposes in areas which have no facilit ies.

and irrigation.
and irrigation.

Catch "I would like tc, place on record my opinion that it is inadvisable in the future for Government any lands for agricultural isolated for drainage crops may be reaped and cattle reared in favourable seasg_ns, but in the period­ ical severe wet seasons cro'ps.

will in­ evitably settlers ment to ask for assistance."

be runined; will then come to the Govern­ lost; and the cattle 1,025 Drainage of 6 MAY, 1948.

E.D.W.

Conservanc-y Area.


1,026 Here is Mr. Case saying in those two and I want hon.

this fact, that the c,n because the estates let the people get out from paragraphs, that river area because the Conservancy must be served, the East Coast Demerara must be served.

I want to make it clear, Members to appreciate lands served on the East Coast Demerara arc only 80,000 acres as against 650,000 acres in the Mahaica Creek.
Further, its banks the when the river overflows but when water goes to a certain height, the water from the Conservancy comes in -and particularly in the this was noticed last flood - the water rises to a consider­ able height and goes beyond the Mahaicony bank on the other side.

The height of the Mahaicony little more than that of the Mahaica area.

The effect of that extra volume of water in fae Mahaica River was felt as far away as the Abary River area.

I know as a fact.
I know as a fact.

and this has been given me by the people when I held a series of meetings that aback Belfield and Golden Grove.

of Victoria, black water was seen and the locks were opened by whom I do not know in order to relieve Dam, and the peasant people in those villages out because of the necessity were flooded of saving the Conservancy in m_v constituency, the Conser\'ancy area is very Dam.

of the dam, for his infonna­ the cutting tion I may state that no dam has been works.
I defy cut there since these relief that statement.

anybody to contradict � the Conservancy Mr. DEBIDIN: An hon.

Member is there because he knows that he, smiling Dr. Sing.1 and I visited and a libel action resulted point I am making is being misunder­ stood.

I am saying that there was damage done to the dams, either by breaking away, or i·elief wjse, which permitted discharged.

by cuts.

or other­ the water to be from it.

The 1 � .. Mr. SEAFORD: 1 have already out to the hon.
-Member that was pointed before this relie:f work was carried I think the hon.

Member knows it per­ fectly well.

Since the relief work w;�s carried out following not show where any dam was cut.

that report, he can­ out.

Mr. DEBIDIN: I leave that.

I see the Members are all smiling.

The PRESIDENT: You Lhree:-qua,:rters of an hour.

going to be any lor,ger?

have had A.re you Mr. DEBIDIN: I am going to ask to it.

recommit Mr. SEAFORD: I rise to a point of order!


Control of the intake sluices is in the hands of the Village Authorities foemselves.

Mr. DEBIDIN: But the locks can ca�ily be opened, and they were opened by whom I do not know.

I am merely sayin_g what was given to me as evidence by the villagers.

bring them here to say so.


I am merely making this observatio_n on their part, and this fact is borne out by the very report in which Mr. Case states: If you desire it I would "In my opinion sufficient reliefs should be -constructed necessity The past practice dams is objectionable".

of making cuts in the dams.

ot making cuts in the to avoid the Mr. SEAFORD: May I suggest eight years ago ?

this report was written If the hon.


Member is reading from the report that Mr. Case recommended this to save relief to be in ihe Demerara Rive1' that The PRESIDENT: The sub�tance of the motion is in the motion itself.
.. Mr. DEBIDIN: Your Excellency and can be examined and cross­ when he said this debate is not I know that this hunourable ,gentlemen, Legislative Council may not be the con­ venient forum, and I am somewhat in­ clined to agree with the h•:m. the Colonial Secretary like a law suit in a Court of Law where the experts examined.

I think this matter should en,!


!a,ge the attent10n and that Members of this Council must have a sympathetic view o.f the plight of human beings in which, perhaps, plight of the very Colony itself important Council.

It is of far-reaching and tremendously so because it affects an area of land not only in the Mahaica from Golden Creek but an area stretching Grove to the Abary.
That is why I am going to ask your indulgence debate which is before the oi every Member importance j to develop is in this the 1,027 Drainage of LEGiSLATIVE CoUNCIL.

E.D.W.

Conservancy Area.

i,028 to a pumping station on the subject.

because the other part of this argument, this debate relates between Golden Grove being established and Belfield.

'I think that has been by many people who have stressed Mr. Pudsey, Mr. written Case himself and others who have ex­ there.
I would like to aimed conditions point, and refer to a very important that is that the water be allowed to be in the Demerara River.

as Mr. discharged Case himself in his report seems.

to suggest on page 6 where he says: "The completion of the Conservancy for a large area of land, be­ Wing Dam will make available agriculture tween Good Success and Den Heuvel, been flooded which has constantly was formed.

since the Conservancv -of the Conser­ Before the formation planta­ vancy~.
there were flourishin,g tions in this area, on lands adjacent to the Demerara River.

I have therefore prepared irrigation advantage and that produce can be cheaply trans­ ported b:y river."

a scheme for the draina,ge and of these lands which have the of being close to Geor,getown in tJ-,is projects So far as finance is concerned it must be borne in mind that a amount of money is spent in the Torani anci Colony, considerable on similar schemes.

We know what the Bonasika experts are doing there.

There is.
There is.

so on levels and so much much disagreement that one more money hi;,!s been required .hardly knows what is going to be the final end of these schemes.

Whatever it is, this point must emerge that a con­ amount of money has.

been siderable for the achievement of the spent already same thing that we are asking that money be spent here for.

That is, to re­ claim land to �orovide and greater should ha,.7e greater the difference and the othu projects Colony expenditure?

like to emphasize.

there.


We will get value for it, in that these lands - Mr. Case has put it at 650 acres, but that multiplied - will be made to will give the acreage where people can produce beneficially settle.

And this must not escape us t:1at these areas for which I am seeking assistance on which you have This point I would The results greater irrigation in order that we production.

then between this scheme are already drainage three times settled upon.
What is will be for agriculture, There is an advantage if this motion lot difficulties is made available water is to be relieved and we would de­ source a tremendous is passed which should not be overlooked, and that is if canals are built from the to the Demerara River, I Conservancy vel}ture to think, it would bring a lot of to the people in the good and a blessing as Mr. Case him­ East Bank Demerara, self admits.
If the area near to George­ tow·,, ,;;uch of the trans'portation would be eliminated rive from another of produce which v,e need most.

If this Conservancy through the Demerara River all that we need to db, as I see it - I am not an but I am taking what we have engineer of an expert before us as the opinion is to have the one sluice of 12 or 16 ft. at Land of Canaan, which, according Mr. Case's report is capable 717,894,900 more smaller sluices a 40 ft. canal.
And what is more some which are at Maduni and of the sluices Lama can be transferred leaving one or two for intake purposes and other uses on the Demerara Rive, side.

Those are things which can be accomplished.

cubic feet of watet', of discharging or a wider outlet­ to this part, and a few to or more - Committee's if my memory serves me cor­ report on and the various and Irrigation made for that area - MahaicB, and Berbice - and the pro­ The PRESIDENT: May I ask the hon.
Member if he has read the Main Development Drainage 'proposals Mahaicony posal to spend $2,000,000 $3,000,000 rectly?

I do not want the hon.

Member to get on the general question posal for that is already in the report.

of this Conservancy He is now talking that as he and much water.

I stiggest has made the point we may refer it to a special us hear what is the reply.

I am quite to do that.

The hon.

Member prepared has stated the facts, but the solution not sound and practical.
and let to investigate committee as a prc­ is Mr. DEBIDIN: I will adopt that only that we hope we will out by technical suggestion, not be swam'ped on that committee.

advisers.

The PRESIDENT: I hope the hon.

Member takes the view that they give j ) • I I 1,029 Drainage of 6 MAY, 1948.

E.D.W.

Conservancy Area.

1,030 lightly the advice of my ex­ op11110n.

I am not going to a considered overthrow perts.


When it is established that the expe1-t's Member cannot expect us to take actioi;i on his personal opinion am sure he will agree with that.

advice is not wrong, the hon.

of that advice.

I Mr. DEBIDIN I agree wit:1 the ·course of having a Select Committee or Committee from this Council.

It is a to go into this he drawn, as the Advisory matter, out it shc1.11ri intimated, matter which Members of rural areas will appreciate.
This is a matter which affects the livelihood people, only too clearly be.

The motion is very timely.

of and the present situation shows what their suffering can of thousands the question at some 'point by Government, I do not know whether we want dis­ of be­ I think for that and Victoria.
and the necessity cussed by that Committee having another pumping station similar to the one at Nabaclis tween Nabaclis the principle have been accepted and the people of those districts have all passed a resolution week ago asking Government very stron,e;}�, in order to improve their drainage con­ dition.

from floods whid1 certainly them in their agricultural would like to know if Your Excellency ,.,,,ould this motion would be referred Committee.
discourage I to grant them that facility whether the first part of unanimously only a pursuits.

to a Select intimate because they suffer continually to deal with it and having dis­ That is the proper step rather than st­ tempting putes about figures and conclusions.

should allow the· Advisory Committee who are the persons interested matter to come in and examine it.

The hon.

Member can put up what evidencf:) he· likes before the Advisory Committee.

I suggest that is the procedure Council should adopt.
in .

that this We Mr. DEBIDTN: I h::ive no objection ' to that course at all.

; Mr. SEAFORD: As the hon.

Mem-, ,_ · those floods took place before to reply to his statements.
ber has s!,)oken for about three-quarters of an hour on this report of Mr. Case :incl has pain'.ed a lurid picture of the suffer­ ing of the people by floods and how all these things can be easily averted, although any Conoervancy relief works were car­ ried out, 1 think I should be given an opportunity He made the statement Creek flooded out foe Abary and the Mahaicony the levels you would see that is a physical impossibility, has discovered Further a road is being built between the Rice Expansion and the people on the western side - the Mahaicony side - are complaining that the road pre, ents them getting water from the Abary, which shows that the water is from the Abary.
unless the hon.

Member how water can run uphill.

areas.

If you check u'p on area and the public road, that the Mahaica The PRESIDENT: Not a Select What I suggest is that the Committee!

hon.

Member having moved his motion it should be referi'ed Advisory Committee for consideration.

to the Public Works Friday, 7th May, 1948.

The Council adjourned to 2 p.m. on At this stage the Council adjourned to resume the debate on the following day.

\ .I> .A