Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698069793990.pdf (Guyana)
2855 Members Present LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Presentation 2856 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Amsterdam) The Hon.

W. 0.

· R. Kendall (New .

THURSDAY, 10TH MAY, 1951.

The Hon.

A. T. Peters (Western Berbice).

The Hon W. A. Phang (North Western District) .

'I'he Council met· at 2 p.m., His Excellency the Government, 0.B.E., President, the Officer Administering Mr. John Gutch, in the Chair.

nated).

South).

The Hon.

G. H. Smellie (Nomi­ The Hon.

J. Carter (Georgetown PRESENT The Hon.

F. E. Morrish (Nomi- nated).


The President, His Excellenc y the The li.on.

L. A. Luckhoo (Nomi- Office·r Administe1,ing Mr. John Gutch, O.B.E.

the Government, nated).

T.he Hon.

the Colonial Secretary, Mr. D. J .

Parkinison, O.B.E.

, (Acting).

OATH OF ALLEGIANCE DEFERRED The Clerk read prayers.

The Hon.

the Attorney F. W. Holder, K.C.

1\/Ir.

General, The Hon.

C. V. Wight, C .

B .

E .

Ess,equibo).

(Western The Hon.

Dr. J.

B. Singh, 0.B.E .

(Dememra-Eissequibo).


The PR.ESIDENT: The next item taking of the on the Order Paper-the Oath of Allegiance by Mr. W. 0.

F'raser, Financial (Areting) next meeting of the Council.

Mr. Fraser is out of Georg,etown.

and Treasurer, until the Actually, ,----iwill :be defer�ed Secretary The Hon.

Dr. J.

A. Nicholson PRESENTATION (Georgetown North).

I.S.M.

FOR MR. R. 8.

PAKEMAN The Hon.

T. Lee (Essequibo River).

The PRES.I-DENT made the follow­ T.he Hon.


W. J. Raatgever (Nomi­ nated).

ing presentation retired :- Deipartment Head Messenger, Public Works to Mr. R. S. Pakeman, ·The Hon.

V. Roth (Nominated).

The PRESIDENT: By Command The Hon.

T. T. Thompson (Nomi­ nated).

The Hon.

G. A. C. Farnum, O .B.

E. (Nominated).

of the King, corweyed His Majesty's State for the Colonies Service the Imperial of , I present to you Medal.

to me through Secretary Principal The Hon.

J. Fernandes (George­ t.own !Central).


The Hon.

Pr.

C. Jagan (C�ntral �merar;t), This award has heen aonfer.red upon ye1ars' of forty-fiv·e W,orkg in the Puiblio you in r,ecogniti.on meritorious service De,partment, shewn yourself �!fi�ient publie: serya�t, during which you have to be a �ost loyal an�l ((23.
The desired improvement of status and economic secur­ Amerindian under the exist­ ity cannot be achieved ing pattern of exploitation by the middleman-industrialist-adventurer .... '' 2857 Arne.rindian Bill 10TH MAY, 1951 -Comrnittee 2858 I warmly congratulate reoord (Applause).

long and exemplary you on your The Minutes of the meeting held on Wednesday, printed read and confirmed.
the 9th May, 1951, as and circulated, were taken as who persons of them either eco­ or in their cultural roads made by the various took advantage nomically ties or their mode of living.

like, with your permission, a few extracts port of a Survey of Amerindian in the Remote Interior."

sir, to read from Mr. Peberdy's ''Re­ Affairs It states:- activi­ I should PAPERS LAID.
·The COLONIAL SECRETARY laid on the table the following documents: '11he Repor.t for the year 1950. on the Deeds Registry The Thirty-uirst Annual Report of War Graves Commission.

the limperial ORDER OF THE DAY AMERINDIAN BILL, 1!

)51 Council resolved itself into Com­ mittee to resume consideration Bill intituled: of the "An Ordinance the good government dian tribes of the Colony."
to make provision for of the Amerin­ COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE Clause 18-"Village Councils The ATTORNEY GENERAL: In clause 18 (1) there will be an amend­ with the printed ment in accordance That is to say, �is� of amendments.

to delete 1 t 1s proposed the words "i.n or Area" from the sub­ any District clause.

council with regard to appoint­ Sir, I Dr. JAG AN: In this clause, notice that the same principle that has been accepted ments has been carried through.
In a village the Captain appointed by the Commissioner man and the other members of the Coun­ cil will be appointed by him.

I must state again that I am not satisfied with this basis of representation.

I have read very carefully that have been written matter, have been able t<i> Qvercome and I find that these people some of the report� in relation will be the Chair­ to this the in- Further, it states:- "26.
Euro-Guianese-American resUJlting adversely Amerindian This unfortunate cul­ th.ave undoubtedly in­ liif€' to mining townships, .

in drunkenness, moral deterior­ character is partic­ ad­ jn settlements ture contacts fluenced and customs sexual promiscuity, and general degeneracy.

ation in Amerindian ularly noticeable jacent West ,District, Mr. A. W. B.
Long, for many years Commissioner trict, has reported randum on Amerindian it is useless to disguise multitudes themselves lation other activities and to use their women as concubines Protection that the fact that have availed of Colonists popu­ of the Amerindian to work their farms and help in of the North West Dis­ in his able memo­ and along ,the1 coastlands in the North ."

Then it goes on to say:- "28.


The Makusi people have been im­ and contact for establishment brought into persistent\ • mental conflict over a considerable period of years with an originally poverished lation struggling Makusi country with more or less marked success.

derived by!
derived by!

the Makusi, mostly of an impermanent froon rancher oc­ nature, cupation, tribal on tribal very backbone dependence customs of self-su:6£iciency laws which constituted to replace based the The limited benefits have not sufficed and in­ of racial dignity .

.

."

in These are .statement s from a man has studied this over a long period -Mr. Peberdy-who matter ver)· closely of time, and also by Mr. Long who has had a long experience people.
hay� tribal We · are told that these people laws which give them ever� among these rancher-industrialist-popu-­ 2859 A11't erindian Bill LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL -c.;ornmittee i8oU more or less, to impoi,e will decide than the others.

Con­ must not I remember that savannahs that the ranch I do not feei° that it would of the Amerin­ y to decide how their vill­ opportunit ages should be run, but we are no\v attempting, from the t·op.
The Com­ authority of the district missioner who should carry on the government and these people would have more western contacts sequently, be in the best interest dians to provide that settlers be given these posts.

in the case of the Rupununi Mr Peberdy suggested should be ,purchased operative suggiestion Gregory-Smith the Interior) lenC)' ever, that some severe impositions carried them or not.
Since the.se able to suggest best interest, whether they W!ould work along· lines and so on With co-operative those remarks I beg to mov� that clause 18 (2) be amended to read as follows:- b)r the.

Wapisianas, but the was turned down by Mr. of and also by His Excel­ It happened, how­ were out, whether the people liked what would be in their I think they should sav the Governor.

and run as a co­ people are (then Commissioner .


,(2) A Village Council shall consist af the Captain of the village, two other persons as the Com-­ having due regard to missioner, of the wishes of the inhabitants may appoint and six the village, other persons to be elected by Amerindians resi - the registered dent •in the Village.'

' their privileges to these people.

As will be seen from the in the Objects and to this Bill, tho.se who refuse to go into thl!
will forfeit oi self-government Thos·e ideas have to be introduced gradually.

final paragraph Reasons relating Amerindians reservations at the end of a period of 10 years.

That alone shows that this Ordinance is a temporary measure introducin� the principles would, therefore, to listen know these Amerindian customs.

will come in time, but they must be introduced amendment.

to the advice of persons who as:k the hon.

Member The things he is advocating graduallr.

s and thefr I oppose the r I of.


self-government.

Amendment put: the Committee dividing and voting as follows:- F@r: Dr. Jagan and Mr. Lee-2.

Against: Messrs Luckhoo, Morrish, Phang, Peters, Fer­ Smellie, Farnum, Roth, Dr. Nicholson, Carter, nandes, General the Attorney Secretary-12.

and the Colonial Amendment lost .

Clause 18, as •amended in sub­ clause (1), .passed.

Clause 2,0-Taxes.

Mr. ROTH: It is quite strange althougi1 of the Colony, that the hon.
Member who has ju.st that th,� taken his seat does not realize are on an of the Amerindians villages t plan from those on enti:riely differen the coastlands he must have seen some of them him­ self.

The hon.

Member spent a long period of Ume yesterday press this Counci.J should ,have a system of local govern­ ment similar but if we did that we would be doing these people a disservice.
understood a sort of &top-�ap It s1hould be Ordinance to induce the ide�s that this trying to im­ is only that these villages to that on the coastlands, after the words Mr. ROTH : I should like to sug­ gest that th·e words "or labour rate as in the Loool Government provided be inserted Ordinance" "may levy taxes" in sub-clause so that a District, Oounciil would be in a posifion when neces­ accept from Amerindians, sary and conveni,ent, cash payment in discharge for taxes levied.
Area or Villag,e labour in lieu of of liability to (1), The ATTORNEY GENERAL: That raises many points, not know whether it is desirable in th1s such an amendment incorporate var� It raises, legislation.

u�de!'

t!ie Labour Ordin:-.

lOU& m�t�er� sir, and I do to for instance, 2861 Anierindian Bill 10TH MAY, 1951 -Committee 2862 to develop these ance.
If we are seeking comm uni ties, then I think we should try as far as possible, to follow the system of levying taxes as it obtains , although we ap­ in other communities preciate villag-e,s derstand the facrt that in some of these money is not us,e.d as we un­ it.

Mr. FERNANDES : I am sorry I have to oppose this amendment because i,t has a slight labour in it and I am not out to en­ force anything that has such a tendency.
ting,e , sir, of forced Mr. LUCKHOO : I know ithat in up to a few to was permitted some of these di,sltricits years ago a villager give his labour, to him as money paid in lieu of rates.

In .

the other districts however, not labour.

in the Colony, and money is always accepted and that was credited the vVe are seeking to protect labour of the Amerind.ians, consequent­ ly the point raised by the hon.

the First Nominated across these provisi Member (Mr. Robh) cuts ,ons.
Mr. FERNANDES : Legislation for, but I do not ,see any,thing whic1h was passed before my time and is still on the Statue Books I cannot account y ,em­ authorit wrong in any village ploying a ratepayer and giving him an opportunity to earn money to pay his tax.es.

That is a perfectly legal but I cannot agree that transaction, a village authority should have the right to make a person pay $5 in taxes in addition four or five to giving three, days' work.

Mr. ROTH : I did not say that at all.


I did not say "tax and labour" but "tax or labour."

can give the equivalent not both.

If there is no cash he in labour-­ districts has said is quite the words ''labou Mr. FARNUM : In the Local Gov­ r and distinctly.

ernment Ordinance rates" are stated clearly What the last speaker normal.

In some of ,these value of the work given iis' taken as money for the payment of rates, and no actual cash is passed.
ualise the Amerindians di�tricts having actual money, and I think that if they are able to give labour in lieu of money it should be accepted.

Mr. FERN ANDES : The hon.

Member is right.

He did not suggest does it make both, but what difference whether he says one or the other ?
I am not prepared thority the right to decide whether s·hould take taxes in cash or labour, that would be moving towards because and I will not agree to forced labour, anything sem­ that has the slightest blance of forced to give a village au­ they I cannot vis­ in some of these labour.

the The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I should like to point out that section 19 of the Labour Ordinance, 1942, states:- per­ of this Part ot :'19.
(1,) Except where otherwise the wages of such employe� Olf any employee, by any employee mitted by the provisions thi Ordirumce; in rvery contl'act for or for the the hiring performance of any labour, shall be payable not otherwise, tract the Wlhole or any part of such wages is payable than in money, such contract shall be and is herel>y deciared illegal, null and void.''

in money only, and and if in any such con­ in any manner other Mr. ROTH: Will the hon.
Member tell this Council what is to be done in a village where there is no cash whatever?

Central Mr. LEE: I agree with the hon.

(Mr.

Member for Georgetown Fernandes).

It is against Code that exchange that way, as it tends to introduce labour.

If they are employed should be some form of currency whereby they could pay their taxes.

forced there should be made in the Labour Mr. ROTH: There is no suggestion I was ref erring to of forced labour.
��s�s where there js no (}3:sh or any 2863 Amerindian Bill LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL -Committee 2864 in a village.

form of currency they going to be remunerated :for their work?

How are The CHAIRMAN : Does the hon.

Member wish to press his amendment?

Mr. ROTH: Yes, -sir.

I move that af.ter the words "may levy taxes" in sub-clause rate as provided ment Ordinance" consequential clauses (1) the words ''or labour in the Local Govern­ with be inserted, to sub,.

amendments (2) anci (3).


The Committee and voted: �n1endinent divided on the For-Messrs. Fatnutn and Roth-2.

- Messrs. Smellie, Fernandes, Against rish, Carter, Kendall, Dr. Nicholson, and the Colonial the Attorney - 18.

Secretary Luckhoo, Phang, Peters, Mor­ Lee, br.

J agan, General Amendment lost.

in Council Mr. LEE: We are making laws for I am suggestin g that if the is to make rules they should be the future.
Governor under this Ordinance laid on the table of the Legislative Council they come I move the ins,ertion of the into force.

words "and laid on the table of the Legislative ,Council for 14 days'' after (2'.I in sub-clause the word "Gazette'; for 14 days ibefore The ATTORNEY d-ENERAL: Fol­ lowing on the remarks -of the hon.

Member for Central Demerara (Dr jagan) that opportunity should be to iook after given the Amerindim1s themseives and deveiop along demo­ cratfo lines, the hon.
Member wiil see that the clause provides that a District, Area or Village Council approval make rules for various rules must he appr-oved ernor in Council, so that the hon.

suggestion Member's This is one case where the hon.

J.\1:em• ber;s point is outside or his, gerteral policy.

in Council, .. Those purposes by the Gov­ of the Governor may, with the is not neces.sary.

Clause 20 pass-ed as printed.

Clause 21 - Power of nistrict, etc.

Councils to ma/ke rules.


The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I move that paragraph (m) of clause 21 (1) be re-lettered following new paragraph s-erted as (n) and the (hl) be in­ Mr. LEE: I beg to differ from the hon.

the Attorney General.

'rhe members or these Councils will be nominated and when the Com­ persons, missioner says that rules must be made those nominated men will not be able to say ''No.
', cillors say "No.,, coun­ Many nominated cannot in the Village Councils "(m) regulating and prescribing the manner in which lands under the con­ trol of the Council may be used; and" that, Sir.

Mr. FARNUM: I must object to Amendment agreed to.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: That is not our e�perience or in other Councils.

in this Council, Mr. LEE: I suggest that the rules to be made under this clause be laid on the table of the Legislative Counci.1 for 14 days.

The Governor will be suhject islative future.


to the will of the Leg-­ (at least I hope so) in the in Counc11 The ATTORNEY 0-ENERAL: I thought the hon.

Member was dealing with the present.

Mr. LEE: When the Governor in makes rules they are laid on Council the table of this Council.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL; The will not make these in Council Governor rules.

They will be made by the Com­ missioner by the Go\­ ernor in Council.
and approved �865 Amerindian .Hill 10TH MAY, 1951 -Co1nmiftee 2860 men will be under the ,of the Commissioner whose Mr. LEE: I know what I am say­ ing, but perhaps I am misunderstood.

The nominated direction directions Governor in C10uncil.

made which prescribe think this Legislature right to review those rules.

Rules may be penalties, and I should have the be doing anything contrary to the interests It would of the Amerindians.
just in an added safeguard, provide case powers are not exercised correct­ ly in the interests 'The hon.

the Attorney that the entire Bill is in the interest of the Amerindians story which has been told to us for a long time.

of the Amerindian3.

has said General will be approved , but that is an ol<l by the Mr. ROTH : The hon.

Member has (3) overlooked apparently of the clause in Council tne power to cancel any rule made or in force under thi:-i clause.
which gives the Governor paragraph or annul proceeding but I think that if he ap­ it from the point of view thnt The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The hon.

Member is aipparently that everythin on the assumption g is of the the interests being done against Amerindians, proached this is being done with the view of advancing the interests and that the rules will be subject the approval in Coun-­ cil, he would see that it is not neces­ sary to bring the rules before the Council.
Legislative of the Governor to of those people, The principle of nomination has under the thumbs of the for a long time as being may be under ancJ, been accepted in the interest of the people, but we find that that is not so.

The hon Member has said that the nominated members of the Councils the thumbs of the Commissioner consequently, Administration, and I heard some is not the Member mutter that that in this Council The lately.
experience be experience of this Council cannot taken into consideration because many Nominated to­ Members are looking wards election I support that some opportunity to Members of this Council, especially as we are giving the Administration blank cheque to look after the Amerin­ dians.

This Council must have some control.- next year.

(Laughter).

suggestion the hon.

Member's should be given a Mr. LEE: Perhaps I am misunder­ These District stood.
or Village Coun­ cils will be composed of entirely nomi­ nated members, and rules may be made by the Commissioner, accepted by the Councils Governor in Council, prejudicial I can see no harm in this Amerindians.

Legislative Council those rules.

which may be to the interests and approved reviewing by the of the Dr. J AGAN: There is some merit his amendment.

in what the hon.
in what the hon.

Member has said, and I am supporting We have been s•eeking to get some measure of oontrol into the hands of the people of this Colony but, apparentl)·, this Council seems of Government served.
cil having a say in the matter, having these rules laid on the table of for 14 days we would not this Council nomineP-s There is no harm in this Coun·­ to think that the system will be pre­ and by of slowness It seems to me that Mr. SMELLIE: I would like to of that there is another as,pect and that is that Govern­ suggest the matter, ment is very o-ften accused -that the wheels of the machinery turn very slowly.

is acceipted if the suggested amendment it would make the position even worse.
We would have to wait 14 days while the rules are being studied, and we would have a very long debate on probably the subject.

urgent is waiting some District Commissioner wants to get omething settled is interminable In the meantime to be put right­ at once, but there something delay.

Mr. FERN ANDES: I do not see This wrong with this clause.

anything is not a case in which the Governor in Council is making rules.
It will on�y 2867 A1nerindian Bill LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL -Uommi,ttee 286� There is · to rescind to prevent the hon.

Member in the Gazette.

of rules after they have been its approval of and if such a motion is approve published nothing giving notice of a motion requesting Government any rules, carried by this Council I cannot imagine Government ignoring that majority the and allowing particular Paragr-aph (3)' giv,es the Governor ju power to cancel or annul any Council rule made -or in force.
I am going to suppo-rt delay I do not want any unnecessary in matters the clause as printed, because rule to remain in force.

of this kind.

decision The Committee divided on Mr. Lee's amendment and voted: ·For-Dr. Jag•an and Mr. Lee-2.

Against-Messrs. Luc.Khoo, 1Vlorrish, Smellie, Phang, Peters, Kendall Carter, Roth, Dr. Nichol­ Fernandes, Farnum, General and the son, the Attorney Colonial Secretary-13.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL : The hon.


Member will note that the sub­ may im­ clause say,s that ",the Council a penalty pose uport the Amerindian The hon.

not exceeding Member knows that very often a Magistrate a person even though there is a penalty ten dollars.''

reprimands attached.

and discharges Mr. FARNUM: I think it should be stated that for a first offence Amerindian shall be reprimand ·an ed.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL: l to tie the do not think it is desirable hands of the Council for the because, second and third offencie we may fix a penalty, whereas may be a reprimand ample in either case.

Clause 22 put, and agreed to.

Clause 28 · - Expenditure.

of Fund.

Amendment lost.

Clause 21, as amended by the was then agreed to.

General, Atto!ney Clause 22-Power of D.",c;trict, etc.

Councils �,f breaches rules and to impose penalties.
to investigate Mr. LEE : If an Amerindian failed to appear before the Council at an investigation what would tion?

be the posin Mr. ROTH: I move that after the in the last line of word ''Colony'' clause 28 the words "or for emoluments of a captain'' urged yesterday not be paid out of this fund but from public funds voted by this Council.

be inserted.
be inserted.

that captains I strongly should by the Commissioner The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The clause says that this fund shall be expended for the benefit but no ,expenditure is made in the annual estimates shall be borne by the fund.

of the Amerindians, for which provision solely Mr FARNUM: With regard to (1) of clause 22, will the to a captain to require sub-clause direction Amerindian Council an the' to -appear before be a decision by the Council?

part of it I cannot �ay.


: That The ATTORNEY GENERAL then, Mr. ROTH : Is it definite, that provision tains will be on the estimates?

for the payment of cap­ The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes.

Mr. FARNUM: Sub-claus e (2) for a penalty not exceeding provides $10 for failur� to comply with any rule.

I do not think any penalty be imp:osed· for a first offence.

should The CHAIRMAN: Clause 14 (3) shall be provid­ that captains equipment at public nrovides ed with certain expense.
The A'l'TORNBY-lx�N�.KAL: A pointed 14 (3) provides out by His Bxcellency, clause that the funds shoukl 2869 Amerindian 1:Jill 10TH MAY, 1951 -t;ommittee �W/u at public expense.

The be provided pomt the hon.

Member 1s makmg deals with remuneration.

any expenditure Ji;stimates Amerindian 1t 1s obvious put in the Annua1 be taKen out of the Purposes c::mnot .L-i\mct.

that Mr. FARNUM: In clause 14 (2) no provision of the captain.

from?
from?

is made for the remuneration Where is he to be paid would be justified in limiting cular clause to registered this parti­ Amerindians.

Mr. LEE : What· more protection r:an we give them other than register­ i11g them if they wish to be registered'!

Why can't an Amerindian registered wants?

and work for whoever he refuse to be The COLONIAL SECRETARY: l that some of the captains nndersLand are being paid at present are being paid from the vote in the I presume that would be Es,timates.

continued.
continued.

and that th__,y The CHAIRMAN : If that is so, I think the captain the Estimates.

therefore, to change that.

There is no necessity, would be paid from Mr. ROTH: I arcept that, sir.

Clause 28 passed as printed.

Clause 30 - Employment of Amer­ indicuns.

provided of the ';Employment but only those who the pro­ will receive under this Ordinancie.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I of the desire to draw the attention hon.
Member to clause 30 which deals with the question of Amerindians", are registered tection The real object is to ensure that :my Amerindian and proper wages ceives reasonable for his work, and that there is The hon.

the no chance of exploitation.

First Nominated Member that there are Companies which now employ Amerindians agreements missioner know exactly those Amerindians.
Com­ else concerned and that the Districit wha,t is happening under certain who is employed re­ and everyone has stated to Mr. LEE: I am suggesting only to regis­ this clause be limited tered Amerindians.

that The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The them from whole idea is to protect being exploited; an Amerindian district.

people who are not registered, the purposes protected.
of labour they should be they might not be in There may b � but for Mr. LEE: An Amerindian can say he wants to live his own life and to work where he likes.

Mr. LEE: You are imposing on on the Cap­ a duty to be register­ the Amerindian ed and you are imposing tain a duty to notify the Commission­ Now, you er if he is not registered.
are saying that an Amerindian have the option of saying to the Dis­ "I do not want to trict Commissioner any more", and the Dis­ be registered trict Commissioner certifitate accept employment zen and pay faxes and so on.

I am saying that that .should which would enable him to as an ordinary citi­ would give him a not be so.

would The COLONIAL SECRET ARY: It is some danger seems to me that there does not in that.
If an Amerindian he need want to enjoy the privileges but in this case we not be registered, against him, possibly want to protect whether we himself.

I am doubtful as Mr. FERNANDES: Speaking one who has had some experience in the employment I do not mean those in the interior those in the Demerara who are not primitive educated River district but who are and go in for sharp practices.
of Amerindians-aJ1d but I can see this situatio n arising: An employer would have to decide him- ·2871 Arnerin�ian B'illLEGISLATIVE COUNCIL -Committee 2872 Mr. LE1E: Even if this Clause is passed as it is and you employ him, you would still be committing a breach because you would be employing Amerindian.

an but in accord­ but according customs only, then he self or find some body to decide when an Amerindian is not an Amerindian.
If he does not live in accordance with the Amerindian customs ance with coastal to is not an Amerindian, .

We this claus•e he is an Amerindian are going to have much difficulty in deciding and when he is not.

I am afraid I going to support the amendment.

Only those who live as Amerindians get the benefit of this legislation otherwise there would be much diffi.. culty.

when a man is an Amerindian -�hould am Mr. PETERS: This brings me yester­ back to the point I was maki_ng day.
There are two kinds of Amerin­ dians in this country; those who inhabit the forest fastnesses live on the coastlands.

we are going to drive those c,areful whd have been freed right back into slavery.

and those who Unless we are these and myself in I have been employing people for the last 30 years and I have not had a single complaint.

There has not been a single bit of unpleasantness any Am�rindian between the past, and I do not think there will be any in the future.
would be r-easonable employ an Interpreter out whether my employees dians or not, or to have to go to the District ploy the same people who have been in my employ for the last 10 or 15 years.

Mr. SMELLIE: I think that the point raised by the1 hon.

Member for Essequibo oonsideration.

In one of this Bill contradicting itself.

part you s-ay that Ametindians should and the� you say that be registered, all Amerindians-whether not-must 1be protected dishonest make the situation employer.
I think we should quite dear.

There is alsO/ a danger Commissi,oner in order to em­ River needs a great deal of for me to have to I do not think it in order to find are Amerin­ registered against the or THE CHAIRMAN:· What is the position at the moment?

Mr. LEE: The position 0nce a person is an Amerindian derstood by the Ordinanc er has to get permission e, the employ­ to empl,oy him.

is that as un­ The COLONIAL.

SECRETARY: The is the same in the Regu­ as it is in clause 30.
There position lations is 110 change in the Regulations.

I am afraid, Mr. FERN ANDES: That Regu­ more is honoured lation, in the breach than in the observance.

I am afraid the Authorities realised than take care of themselves.

that these people c,an more have The CHAIRMAN: I feel rather nervous lest if the word ''registered" to the is put in here it would operate detriment Amerin­ of the registered dian.

An employ-er might be reluctant to employ him.

benefits.
benefits.

unregistered away from benefits Dr. J AGAN: I agree with the I think the in the long run we might I think hon.

Members were would be clear if we give to registered Amerin­ views of the last S'Peaker.

situation certain ­ dians and then s-ay that those not regis tered would also have certain Otherwise, find, persons employing Amerindians and getting the control o:f the Di.strict Commi:3- sioner.
wrong when they; opposed the regis­ tration they of all Amerindians would all be given cards when reg.is­ tered.

In that case there would be no discrimination any difficulty clause.

option of registering, that thos,e, who do not register enjoy some advantage all of them would never register.

I do not think that is ,a state of things we would like to see.

we would find would later and that If we give Amerindians and we would not havt� in interpreti because ng this the The hon.
Member for Western Ber­ Amerindians bice has stated that those 2873 Amerindian Bill 10TH MAY, 1951 -Gomrnittee 287 4 areas have at the conclusion who came into contact with civrilization were more exploited ideas and so on, but I correct because, in his report that those who live in the coastal absorbed Western do not feel he is entirely one fiinds that Mr. Peberdy arrives Amerindians Western than those who live in the interior.

not because with civilization ern clothes need protection.
permission, by Mr. Peberdy dians on the coastlands protection' wa:s reprinted paper) in December, and so on that they do not I shall read with your in the "P A C'' (news� 1949, and it says:-- to show that the Amerin­ as the ot_hers.

sir, a portion need as much they have come into contact This extract It is ,of the ire.port and are wearing West­ but it would Although the and who ha'm under the pro­ to be registered of the Ordinance, all Amerindians.
When it comes to the question of employment, it is not limited to those in the districts a ,r,ight visions embrace hon.

Member for· Georgetown Oentral pointed out that he employs Amerindian s and that their work is very satisfactory, that are there are conditions of sE.-rvice looked for and there may be other em­ ployers whose conditions may not be S'O rntisfactory as regards other Amerin­ dians who have reached a satisfactory stage in their development.
The provis­ ions which we are now looking at seek to secure the protection of Amerindians as a whole.

If their conditions factory be affecting those employer tabourers and I suggest sistency about it.

in ,such ,a way as is desired, that there is, no incon­ are s,atis­ it does no harm at all.

It would s who but it is questionable industry, of them engage in the wood­ "171.
In so far as the coastland Amer­ a very larg,� indians are concerned, proportion cutting whether -they derive maximum mone­ tary benefit on the other hand, given opportunities to labour for themselves alone, ially improving cumstances, improving it would be the means of mater­ their economic cir­ :funds for by working for others; and providing in this industry their general welfare."

Amerindians Here is a point which I think hon.

It is true Members are overlooking.


that thos,e who have had some contact become more or les.s, civilized, feel they must be protected way as those who live in the very re­ mote interior.

with Western people have in the same but I refer printed after all.

In part is made for the registration .

If hon.

Members The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think that on analysis of the terms of the Bill hon.
Members will agree that it is not so inconsistent II provision of Amerindians to clause 4 they would see that as it was originally and presented Council to reside in a district, This Council, �·esterday, by adding the words ''re,gistered the provisions of this Ordinance."

there is a proposal three different the Amerindians who wish to come into these reservations that under Then to set up or to have area or villa )·e.

prescribed to this was entitled every Amerindian ar.eas for the purpose of .
of this particular but of Amerin­ district, Tho•se Amerindians these reservations who are regis­ to reside in a area or village would not be entitled tered woulct be entitled particular those not registered to do so.

As hon.

Members are aware, there is· a large num'ber dians outside and I suggest that, undoubtedly, there would be cas.es which would come within the provisions pairt of the Bill.

As the hon.

the Colonial Secretary has pointed making a departure.
fa to put the general ·to Amerinct11ans rrhere may be cas,es Member for Georgetown Fernandes) has referred very satisfactory, others whose· conditions not so satisfactory, is being provided.

legislation Central (Mr. , which are but this is for the of work are for whom this out, we are not All we are doing provisions relating in this new Ordinance.

to which the hon.

Mr. FERNANDES: The hon.

the: s.ays that this pro­ Attorney Generial tection is needed.
First of all, I would like him to tell the C'Ouncil what would be the postfon of a man who has been refused registration?

To all intents and purposes he is an Amerindian.

He· qualifies under Part II of the Bill, bnt 2B75 Amerindian 1:Jilt LEGISLATIVE CouNctt --uommittee �87b as an Amerindian by the fact that he in Is registration.

How is an em­ he does not qualify has been iiving the past.

He is refused he still an Amerindian?

ployer to know whether he is an Amer­ indian or not?
It will be v,e,ry difficult for us who live on the c,oast when a man is an Amerindian he is not.

to decide and when Mr. ROTH: His registration certi­ ficate would prove that.

the term Mr. FERNANDES: That is juclt If that is all that would because under clause 2 would what I wanted.

ensure that he is,, then the amendment is bound to succeed, "Amerindian' also make him an Amerindian even if he is not registered .

Tnat is where the mix-up comes.


The Bill provides every Amerindian except where he is refused If that is so then ail the protecti-0n that is, needed is for those who have been regiistered, those who are because not would be those who have been re­ fused registration.

those circumstances any Member can hones,tly the-amendment.

shall be registered, registration.

I submit that under I do not see how vote against that ordinary Colony.
life of any inhabitant of the I hope I have that right .. Gen­ What the hon.

the Attorney from the point of who has elected The registered to go into will be protected in all eral is saying now is that, irrespective they want to go into a of whether or not, it must be remem­ reservation that bered that they •aire all registered; they are protected view of employment.
Amerindian a reservation s.orts regard to conditions apply to the r,eg·istered Amerindians whether they are in a reservation or the position not.

If I have .summarized correctly I hope the hon.

the Attorney will let me know, because it General has •all been very confusing up to the present.

of ways, but the protection of employment with Mr. ROTH: What the hon.
Mem-• by this for the most ber has said is correct part, but those who do not go into � wil� be protected reservation law in the same way as, those in a reservation, and after the expirati-on those who are outside l01se all their privileges.

If they wish to retain their privileges 1 O years aft.er they must go into a res•ervation.
of 10 years will a reservation for a period of 10 years, is can Amer­ Then those looks after them in vari­ them by forbidding to live in a reservation Mr. SMELLIE: I am very much against conditions ·obli:ged to the hon.

Member :17or clear­ ing up that point.

T'he .position an employ­ thiat t!he protection er as ,re,gairdtS of employlffient will only hold g;ood for 10 years.

Mr. SMELLIE: I am really not quite clear ..

The hon.
The hon.

the Attorney General said that any registered indian who wished to do so could live within a reservation.

Well, every Amer­ indian has to be registered.

who cho-os·e do ,so.

While they are in a reservation Government ous ways ; protects unauth01riz reservations; the sale of alcoholic liquors, courages them in communal life and activity we have a •second who ar,e also registered one has to 1�egister .

The Amerindians in this second class are those who say they are not going into a reservation.
In s:pite of the fact that they are registered Amerindi,an desires tr.a tion he can 1go .to the DilSltriict sioner who hears his case and cancels his registrati witbin those reservations.

Then protected class' of Amerindians is the amendment because every­ If an Amerindi,an produces of the cancellation an empJoy,e•r employ him with!out l'ling a penalty.

he is and that under the Ordinance, I am asking for.

them as regards and en­ The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes.

Lf an Mr.

LEE.

: It goes fwrther.

on.


If he is registered ed people to go into the they prefer to live the to cancel his rieigis­ I am uriginig protects Commis­ that thos·e of his re,gistvation wouM know th.at he could 1am,y risk of incur­ a certificate �77 Amerindian Bill 10TH MAY, 1951 --c;ommittee 2878 who have seen the liig,ht of Amerindians Western civilization freedom.
be given their Mr. SMELLIE: I said a while ago :but now ithat I understand the I do not agree wi.th hi:m any those Aimerindi1an1s who what the hon.

Mem­ that I agreed w:iith ber siaid, position longer, becruuse are not in a res•erviaition tive people, be •protected in the .Slame way as of employment those who ,are ih r�se11wations.
and I think they should with regard to conditions are als•o primi­ or they is •going no s1anction, and not register n shaU be registered, Ci am not suggesting nes1s in the matter.

The Bihl says that ever,y Ame,rindi1ai but there i,s, aibso}utely if an Amerindian d.oe:s nothing to happen oo him.

It may be that if they find that it is in not to register, their interesits are persuaded by some mi-scrupulous characters there are main.y about, not to regiisrter, tfon we can impose.
In the form irt which the Bili fh,st icame before the Council in clauses were registered duce their registration certificate, if they foiled penalty was -r•e.m0ived now .

sancbion they would have to pro­ and to a they would be liable of $25.

The penalty yesrtell"day, tbut ·there may be) then there is Iio saiic­ s1anction if they there was an indirect 10 and 11 \because,.

for fia.ilure and there is no that should not be of "Amer­ pro­ who Mr. FERN ANDES: The amendment them.
As lon.g as they are they a.ire 1a-urtomatically T·hey are employed are goinig to lhe refused The only Amerindians the,y have not been £tom the time of are those who r,e­ Certain ()If the to the.

definition they can be regi1stered as Amer­ ·protects reg.i1site,red tected.

will not be protected fuse registration.

.Ameriindians becaus•e registration as Ame1rindians living and therefore thei•r birth, There· ,ar,e liots of them registered.

who were born in Georgetown and, according indian,'' inddans1.
town,.

and every time thei.r employers ployment Commissioner of formalities.

would be easier not to eimpfoy those people and save ,a lot of bother.

T·he who would lose number of AmerindiantS protection of the ,amendment would be just a fow who are· going to regist1.

"iaiti'on be refused lbeoouse, in blood, they are not Amerindians or hiav·e not Amerindians in habits, They do not know lived in the interior.
anythin,g desire to continue their em­ they would have to look for the· and g.o through in George­ present about the interior.

H may ibe found that it ,as a reS!ult although all sorts T1he COLONIAL ,S1EGR.ETARY: Hon.

except those that all Amei-­ will be registered, Me1mJJers, are assuming indians who have 1been refused If I thought that was going to be CO!.

'­ rect in practice I should not have any 'but I ha:ve se•rious doubts, and doubts, it does seem to me that there is a weak- regjstration.

lY.tr.
lY.tr.

ROTH: The sanction for refusal is that he has to pay taxes.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: We that it is in his interest an outside that the vast the case entirely.

and not regis­ an assumption of them lha:ve -not yet reached are under an obli1gation to the Amerin­ and I think the whole of this Bill dians, implie;5 majori,ty the stage when they can decide for of this sort.
As themselves in matters may arise in I said yesterday, may persuade which an employer Amerindian to come to Georgetown ter, and to accept employment of the Ordinance There is and it is against that that danger, danger that I think they must be pro­ tected, agrees that it would be unwise to limit cfause 30 to registered are more advanced do not want protection dause 41 which it is proposed to intro­ duce, they could go to the Commis­ sioner and get a certificate t.hem from the provisions dinance.
majority tection, there is nothing from the word "shaill,'' But I do submit that the vast of those people do need pro­ and as the Bill now stands If there who Amerindians under the new and the Commissioner to compel them, apart Amerindians.

which is not of the Or­ exempting 2879 Amerindian Bi'll LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Comxmittee 2880 and there is no a sanction, in itself force behind it.

It seemed to me that we were introducing terday, take to amend clause 30 as the hon.
the First Nominated Member has proposed.

a weakness yes­ and I think it would be a mis­ The Commit.tee then divided on and voted: Mr. Lee's amendment For-Messrs. Carter, Phang, Peters, Fernandes, Roth and Lee-6.

', Against - Messrs. Mor­ Luckhoo, Farnum, Raatgever, rish, Smellie, Wight, Dr. Jagan, Dr. Nicholson, Attorney retary - 10, the -Sec­ and the Coloni,rul General Amendment lost.

Clause 3'0, as printed, agreed to.

Clause 31.


- Contract to be in writfng presence and to be made in the of certain persons.

to be con­ these agreements Mr. ROTH: It is of the utmost that the offic1ers importance cern2d with attesting should have a thoriough wii.h local labour conditions wise I foresee trust that Government in mind.

They should be officers of ex­ perience in the districts, knowledge injustice and with a being done.

I will bear that of labour · conditions.


., other� acquaintance agree in pri:r �iple with The COLONIAL S,ECRET ARY: While I entirely the hon.

Member, I must qualify my assurance be done to the extent that such ex­ perienced officers and to the e,xtent that this Counciil agrees to the necessary provide by saying that that will are ,available, staff.

Clause 31 put, and agreed to.

Clause 34.-0ff ences.


Mr. LEE: I see that paragraph of that any per­ the permission Commissioner, suffers any to be in or upon any house or under in his occupation shall be li1a;ble to a penalty (b)of clause 34 states son who '·without the District Amerindian or premises his control, not exceeding friend of Amerindian stays with be guilty of a breach of the law and liable is made to permission Commissi•oner, but I may be in my house at Wakenaam while sioner may be in Leguan.
I may have a blood, and if he to a penalty of $100.

Referenc me in my house I would by the District the Commis­ $10'0."

e see that attached one aspect, The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The that arises in this case, as of the District the word "shall" by the hon.

the Colonial difficulty explained Secreitary, is because of the fact that is on the voluntary the emphasis na­ and there ture of the registration, to that clause, is no sanction although is used.

The hon.

Member has introduc12d but hon.


Members will also, there is another aspect-"without permission er, suffers any Amerindian upon any house, or premises occupation There may be cases, and I ami, sure that hon.

Members will see that an Amerindian on premise improperl y, and that it is desirable sioner should be aware of that and that the person who so harbours an Amerindian penalized.

the Commission­ to be in or or under his control."


may be harboured that the District Com�is­ fact, in his should be substantially Mr. LEE: I am not talking about I am referring to the word harbouring; "suff ei·s."

Mr. LEE: I sincerely hope that as has in its employ several it will see tha written Government Amerindians, are entered contracts I know that several employed f.!rpm�nt Service, into with them.
Amerindians iµ the Gov­ are in hig1h positiqns The ATTORNEY GENERAL: "Suf­ fors" there means permits.

Mr. LEE: May I ask the hon.

the Attorney Ge�eral how he i§l ioing to 2881 A.merindian BiU 10TH MAY, rnsi -Committee 2882 children exempt Amerindian being educated in a Convent?

who are wise, I can quite imagine deal of hardship that a great will be inflicted.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The hon.

Member has not read the clause.

It says ''without District Commissioner."


the permission of the Mr. ROTH: This has been the law in existence far as I kuow it has not been enforced, except on occasions y necessary.

solutel since 1910, and as .

when it was ab­ difficulty Mr. MORRISH: I can see another in view of what I see a week.

I see Indians little at least once coming down the river with boat loads of wood which they take to the estates.
They visit the estates they have friends quite a common occurrence to sleep af the house -of one of their friends.

cnlt for them if permission obtained from the District sioner for them to spend a night at the house of a friend.

It would seem rather diffi­ has to be so often that_ there, and it is for them Comma.s­ Mr. WIGHT: The point may be of those in the form an .amendment I think the insertion of the or the addition lawful or 1�easonable <:overed by o:f a proviso, ·words "without excuse."
words would cover the oases mentioned by hon.

Members.

It does seem ,to me that if an Amerindian to remain in a house without permis­ sion the occupier may be no opportunity necessary erindian permission before the Am-· at the particular place.

TheTe would be liable.

arrived to secure the were permitted Mr. LEE: I would accept the sugg,ested by the hon.

Mem­ Es,sequibo (Mr. amendme.nt ber for Wes,tern Wight).
is, in that we c1an good evidence by this particu­ method of attaining that Mr. LUCKHOO: The fact that this has been in existence for provision such a long time and has only been used on one or two occasions my opinion, do without it.

One knows what is sought to be achieved lar claus-e but it seems to me to be an underground particular end.

Personall y I would pre­ fer that we came into the open and have at the what we really expressed back of our minds.
I presume that the object of this clause is to provide for cases in which a man might har­ bour an Amerindian house.

If that is the intention we The,re should go about it quite openly.

to colour or disguise is no necessity it.

I think the amendment by the hon.

MembeT may be quite suf­ but again I do not feel that we ficient, should approach it from that aspect.
woman in his suggested and The position in agreement Mr. FERNANDES: I quite under- 1'(tand the r,e,ason for this clause, I am quit,e with that is that we will reason.

hav,e to pass this law and depend upon it to do what those who will administer is right.
If a man marries indian he might suffer others to, liv,� in hiR ho�w , and according to this clause he would be liable I suppose great,er used as prostitutes leave the clause in and hope that ihose who are ,going to administer the law will not do so strictly with the letite;r o,f the �ectiQn, Other- that in order to avoid the evil of Amerindi�n we will have to girls being an Amer­ to a penalty.
in accordance As regards paragraph (a) of clause that it should because " I am ...... that the word ''knowingly" 34 I am of the opinion read that any person w1:o "k11owingl·y employs any Amerindian suggesting should be inserted, see a case where a person may unkn°''.r ingly employ an Amerindian, such word should be introduced so as rnens re-a to provide before an offence is committed.

also move 1the deletion (b).

I will of paragrap h £or the necessary one can fore­ and some ­ Mr. WIGHT: I support the hon.
suiggesrtJ'ion Member's the word ''knowingly" an emplorer Q�Gaui;;e of (a) may not knQw thi;lt of the insertion in paragraph 2883 Amer"i,'ndian Bill LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Committee 2884 of, but I am afraid, the person he is ,employing is an Amer­ sir, that I cannot indian.

support the amendment to repeal clause 34 (b).

It is true that the hon.
which Member is ref erring to matters even the Courts are cogni,sant I think there should be s•ome protec­ it is easier tion of that kind because to get a person to come from the interior than it would be to induce them to stay over as an act of kindness, and that kindness somethin1g iy Gen­ eral would accept it, I would move an to 34 (ib) ito the effect amendment the word1S1 "without able excuse" be s1uJbsrti1mted worlds "wiLthiourt District for the the per.mission of the without ,a home and stay, else.
If the AJttorne J;aJWful or· r.eason­ imig.ht develop ,r.'' Commissione ,into ithat he comes within the def.inition clauise of 2.

Mr. FARNUM: I think there are tians come into the cases where Aimerind 1homes of ,people in Georgetown.

w01uld \be the ~position if those Amer­ ind.ianis are not registered?

Wbat The ATTORNEY GENERAL: 1 suppose notifiootion the ibreach.
theiy would ·have to give i.Some or it may ibe honoured in Mr. LEIE : If we Look 151 of the Immiig:riwtion C�a,pter 208, we would find that it readS1:- at section 01idfoance, The ATTORNEY GENERAL: This clause is in no way new.

It formed the basis of section 22 (1) of the Aboriginal ance, Chapter Indian Plrotedion Ordin­ 262, which reads:- "22.-(1) Anyone who, except under with t'he provisions of this or the regulations, or, with­ of the Protector, of any ordinance an Indian or a than in ptherwise or the .
provisions employs regulations, f.emale half-caste, accordance Ordinance out the\ pe1mission or permits suffers half-caste, or premises his control, against liable more than one hundred on conviction this Ordinance, to be in or upon any house or under in his occupation shall be guilty of an offence and shall be of not to a penalty dollars and or to im­ dollars, an Indian or a female .

not less thap.

fi.£ty for any term not exceeding prisonment six months."
away or the wife of an harbours who entices wiho has left her husband Everyone with th.e wife of an immigrant, ''151.

cohabits or un[awfully immigrant witho'Ut penalrty dollars without exceeding penalty second be deemed guilty of a misdemeanour accordingly.
and be punishable shall be liable just cause, not exceeding twenty-four or to imprisonment, hard labour, for any term not three months, or to both the and imprisonment, or any subsequent shall offence, and, on a with or to ::t ·"Provided that no one shall be con­ for cohabiting under this section to the satisfaction or court before victed wtth the wife of an immigrant if he of the establishes whom he is Magistrate that the wife was deserted by her tried, husband, pelled the cohabitatio and consent n was with the knowledge of the husband."
her to leave his house, or that the husband com­ or thai This has only !be,ein incorporated .

in this Bill.

T1he rwo!

'ds ",with- Bill :but it is some­ I think it is 1be such a pro­ illlto this pa,Dticular thin,g you had 1before.

well t'ha,t there s·ho'lllld viis.ion would e:xicuse'' out lawfiul or reas-0:nalble difrficulit ii.ntroduce The onrus would have to be on the prose­ As reigards the word "fonovr­ cution.

the ,hon.

Member I supposie ingly'', me�ns trh�t the per�on would �now th3it condition.
a somewhat I think that if we introduce a sec­ that anylQne with a away or oohabits tion in this Bill providing who entices AmerindiMl, foma,le bour1S ,a ·female Amerindian left her husband without just cause to a penalty s�ll be liable it wiould be a good thin1g.

or unlawfully o.f so and :10, who has ha1·­ The ATTORNEY GENERA½: I think the new clause, 40, is 1swbstau­ in its terms, similar tially, hon.

Member is suggesting.

to what the Mr. LEE; T,h�n why have his?

2885 Amerindian Bill .


10TH MAY, 1951 -Committee2886 The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Be­ cause one is a wife and the other one may not be a wi:f e. Mr. LE1E : I cannot ,sUipport this clau e in view of clause 40.

I think it should be deleted.

if a a certain the-re he cannot This-affords of pr.otection to the honest em­ 0ution is brought.

For instance, man g10es iinto an .Alme.rindiian district and oo.•gages pe:risons say he did not know that they were Aimerindi-ans.

a:mo,un,t ployer.

For ins,tance, if the ho;1.


Meimbe1r for Georgetown not eng;a1ge he would not ibe responsible except through additional circumstanceE( show that he had knowledge.

think t'hat this provides any,thirug amoiun to I do a ,s1olution to pe:rnndt of a certain t of injustice.

the coastlands that wo1uld pe,rsons South does :a,lo-rug 1biut clause tlO The ATTORNEY GENERAL: This 34, with which we are i[lOW 24 in the old Amer­ This reif.ers to the g was section the hon.
Memlbe-r clause, deali,n indi,an Ordinance.

questJion of harbourin,g, to whic!h deals with the question the wife oif an Amerindian.

the tel"lm "knowirngly", dirfferent meaninlglS\.

knowin1gly indlian acc-ordance Ordinance.

that the pers-on or knowingly it ma1y ha-ve two It may ,mean with the pro,v'is,i1ons of this that it lis in is an Ame:r­ has referred of inducing As regards Mr. LEE: If the woTd "know­ ingly" is inse·rted to t:he question pe,rson employed of knowi,ng is an Amerindian.
there it wouJd ref er that the or reasonable to the fullest would be entitled possible Mr. C. V. WIGHT: I t•hink it is to make· it 1imper-ative that undier siUib..Jsection (b) s1hould and t\hiart the , offence la;W1fiuJ essenrtia.il knowledige be esrtalblis1hed should be without excuse.

It does seem to me that after all a defendant to protection extent.

case of spi-rti.t sometimes penalise their servants.

Geor.getown Cent.r:al these people and he might become involve proceedings his clerks.
might become lfa,1ble his ag-ent.

We do know that in the proprietors are in which on words, an em;loyer through d for; the acts of T:he 'hon.

Memlber for he employs In othe,r s1h.01ps, ,siays the act of of to e·stablish the knowledge to establis·h may be circumstances in which must follow and the:P-it would The ATTORNEY GENER.AL: When you ins1e·rt the word "knowingly" the onus of establishing the guilty know- 1-e:d,ge wo-uld still be on the part of the peI'lson who brings the prosecution.
Ther.e it might be very difficult that knowledge.

The moment the hon.

e-s the question Member introduo "knowingly" the other part of the pro­ ceedings be for the prosecution guilty knowledg,e.

The whole approach must be one of trying; to detect any with which the Amer­ guilty indian population is dealt with.

The 1•esponsibilit(Y for the carrying the provisions of the Ordinance involve proceedin the face of it, there is doubt whether the employer knew that the person employed was an Amerindian.
There­ fore, I think it is better to leave• this matter as it is.

There might be some difficulty knowledge, such a provision of preventing or doing things inimical to the interests members of the community.

in establishing and the fact that there is would have reople from taking steps of these Amerindian out of woula or prejudicial gs in which on this guilty the effect Mr. THOMPISON: I,f a man has w, man with ,children flll Amerindian what would be his .position?
The ATTORNEY GENERAL} Let J:iim g;et married.

Mr. LEE: Presuimptions would, -naturally, take their oour,se if a :prose- 1\llr.

PETERS : We imi-ght try with to give all the pro­ every solicitude tection we can to the Amerindians , ·but we might lean too far on the other side and do injustice in the• community.

to �up,port citizen I am therefore going of th� hon.

the sug.g:estion to the· ordinary 2887 Amerindian Bill LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
--Committee 2888 should be placed in this clause-· that the employer the pe11son employed in favour of the prose­ is an it would be Nominated Member that the word "lrnowingly" 34.In clause 38 you have the initial presumption cutor-that Amerindian,-therefore fair to provide know full well that the pe[rson is an Amerindian.

dian folk in our community very much like Chinese or Japanese.

Further, anda" or a half-caste lose her racial identity tent that she would appear to be a mulatto.
I am going to support tbP amendment of the w01rd ''knowingly."

a person mi,ght be a ''Bovi­ Indian and might to such an ex· which calls for the insertion There are s-ome Amerin­ who look Clause 35-Supply of intoxicating liquor to Amerindians prohibited.

The ATTORNEY GEN.ERAL: I of the words "within move the deletion any District, second line of para,gr.aiph 35, and the words "as aif oresaid'' end of the pairagraph.
Area 01r Village'' in the (1) of clause at the Mr. SMELLIE: May I ask what would be the position SUipplied intoxiicating liquor i ndi,ain i1n Georgetown?- of a person who to an Amer­ The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The· hon.

Member might read clause 37 (::i.)

which s1ays: The CHAIRMAN: I will now put for the insertion of the before the word in sub-paragraph the amendment word "knowingly'' "employs" clause 34.
( a) of Amendment put, the Committee dividing and voting ais follows:- For: Messrs. Luckhoo, Carter, Smellie, Phang, Peters, Fer­ nandes, Fairnum, Lee, Dr. Singh, and Wight-13.

Thompson, Morrish, Raatgever shall "37 This Part of this Ordinance not apply to or gift of (a)the sale, barter, supply liquor to be used in medical by the direction of oner· practiti and ,dispenser, or is.
ing liquor pur-­ fo1� the aforesaid of a intoxicating case of illness a registered or sicknurse where such intoxic?t supplied pose with the permi:ssioni District ficer, or" or an of­ of religion; Commissioner or by a minister Against: torney General tary-8.

Messrs•.

Roth, the At­ and the Golonial ::,ecre­ Amerindians drjnik wfhy not protect from the evils of st-rong them everywhere?
Mr. SMELLIE : If we are protectin g· The CHA'1RJMAN: The proposed of clause 35 i1s for the dele­ amendment tion of the words "within Area or Village'', pro.h1bi.ti:on apply to the whole Colony.

w.hic,h ... wouM make the.

any District, Did not vote: Dr. Jagan-1.

Amendment carried.

Mr. WIGHT: I move that the words "and/or without lawful reaison be inserted or excuse'' sub-paragr at the end of ,aph (b).
The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I and have looked at this ame.ndment of would like to have an opportunity examining I suggest that further this clause be def erred.

the matter fully, ther.efore consideration of Agreed to.

Clause 34 def.erred.

not -en.joy on tne Amerindians such a :inl\POS·e of this Dr. JAG AN: S1pealdng on Part VIII of the Bill I feel that the time ihias1 come when we shoul'd no lon,ger restric.17.ion Colony.
1 do not know why those people sihould other persons purchase Miy iinforima tion is1 that Amerindfans a:1coh0il whether t'hat is ,so I c,aninot passiing something the s•aime rights as to go into rums1hops and if they wis:h to do �o.
get the,y rbtuy it or mot, a111d if· 'ity of see the nece,s,s that wM0h merely s•ayi.s wornld be unJa.wful which is a a claU1se alcohol 2889 A 1nerindian Bill 10TH MAY, 1951 -Committee 2890 res<pect_ the ordinary pro�isions liquor to intoxicating In vfow of that I common piractirc,e.

Wl()uld ·be in favour oif the deletion of the rwhole o,f Part VIII of the Bill.
I of the law thlink relating should also be applicable generally come to understand inig liquor in mode,rate I do not .tlhlink of a recurrence years ago.

I am opposed -the Bill.

there is no,w any danger of what took place many to this Part of to Ame,rindians.

felt thiat Amerfo:idfans It is have away from them would not do so, Is it they will get it somehow.

·in igno.rance of We waint to wean these people to our own that we should remove all control .

to his absolute th'is the true state of affairs.


gradually ways of life, but iby keeipirug tirely because not better that they should be allowed to have alcohol in their own home,s rathe1r tham to dnink it in rum­ shops ,among other people?

That is why Commis,sioner the Bm perimits to give an Ame:rin.di,an to permission have a certain h()Jme.
aimourtt o.f liquor in his a District graduany the use of intoxiciat­ quantities, The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I am alcohol and en­ in a co'Smopolitan was in the con­ by hon.

Mem­ .and if that because, position to certain at the hon.

Member of liquor among other racial Mir.


WIGHT: Be that as it may, it in this Colony, of other racial it would for the 1host to tell early in the of the deibate of this· Bill, he portions of Mr. rather surprised taking that attitude oouI'ise referred Pe1be1rdy's report whioh he emphasized.
I think it will be a•greed bers that not so long ago emphasis pl,aced upon the increase sumptfon communities is so in respect communi­ ties the arglllinent must be stroniger with reg.ard to these people wthom we are evils as�o­ to ,protect seeking 1liiquor.
ci,ated with intoxicating In the 1on is made early Part of the Bill provisi for Amerindians tions with c,ertain as reg,ards outside ners will agree tha:t it is desira1ble that this Council which is in the ·best interests particula to live within .reserva­ restrictions, ,so that of liquor does seem that we would create a. very ainomalous If there ,are five or s,ix per­ community.
sons on a viS'it to one's house and one of them looks like a·n Amerindian be very awkwaird that person that he could not offer him a drink ,because The hon.

the First Nominated (Mr. Roth) has had a great deal of ex­ with Amerindians, perience some of and know when to whom are educated stop drinkin ,educated men employed hy Governme!1t in the Rup,ununi.

ed to refrafo from off.e,rting those men a drink?


It seems to me that to close the against door entireJy is going a little too far, but we may try to control the consumption areal;\ I think ho11.

Mem­ am attitude of those the· Ja\\', Member Mir.

FEiRNANDES: I quite a,gree fuBy tg.

Some of them are their consumption it was• a,ga:inst Can anyone be expect­ should maintain Amerindians of alcohol.

from the r people.

of those• Mr. ROTH : The hon.


Member for Demerara Central (Dr. Jag.an) has once agajn shown ·how Httle he knows •aibout Guiana Ind1ians.

Anyibody who knows anything the deleteri1ous liquor passions sults.

We know that Georgetown uip in brothels in goal.

It is a grim picture, sorry to say it i·s a true one.

I can only the hon.

Membc•r' ascribe at all about them must know effect of ,spirituous on those people.
It inflame their with d1is1astrous re­ wih.en they come to and are paid off they end if not very easily, but I am and in the hos.pital, not be , 1but it ,should This is one occa­ Members of the who belong to the med·ical pro­ that the sale of Liquor to Ame.r'indians should be oontrolled taken to the extreme.

sion on which tho•se- Council fos,sion have one up on other Memlbers, because doses of they can presn·ibe med'icine in the form of a whisky and soda.

Among those Members I include the hon.


Member for Eastern Be-rbice (Dr. Gonsalves) a person to be simply have to declare they alcohol sick, and in prescribing would not ,be breaking the law.

This law has been there for a very long time who is a dlentist.

They s suggestion 2891 Amerindian B.rn LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Committee 2892 a case -in which it w,as1 not ab• but I cannot recall was pu,t into force where it isolutely nece ·sary.
I aJID prepared taJke a .chance on this one, b,u,t I think some restriction brought bers of the community.

might very well be to other mem­ in with respect to Dr. JAGA : The hon.

yominated a gre•at but that Mir.

R,oth, of passions, does not only inflame mu,s,t fbe used in moderatfon.

to the in­ referred ignorance, .Are we going to must be closed on ,and that realize that the pas­ if he him-.
deal hiis passions as :muoh as .anybody that in this City as1 soon Membe.r, flaming sort of thing, bu,t he slhould alcohol sions of Amerindians, self co,n,siUmed would ibe inflamed el1se's.

He must realize today people go into rumshops as they get the,ir ·p.a.y.

say t1rat rirnmshops pay da,y?


Peop�e hav,e come to ·realize that in their own interests liquor legislate c,annot other forms of social ce,rtain way in which we have •instituted measureis ber of rumsihopsi ing in certain a,reias, similar indians, po ing ab olute prohi'bition should be of the community.

�plied to one sectfon I have heard visitors to this country preaching against ture showing them drinking 'hed iin the newspapers.
pu1b1is restrictions but I do not think a la;w im­ yet pic­ rum drinking, have been against drinking vice.

In the same by limiting the num.­ and ithe hours of open­ as rega,rds Amer­ we can adopt of control We or vised to delete this clause from the ·Bill.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I :mpve that sub-clause a penalty by substituting dollars ing one hundred ing twenty-five dollars."

cases of intoxication in ciircumstances a very strong penalty.
(2) be amernded of not exceed­ for ';not exceed-· There may be of an Amerindian which might require Mr. LEE: I cannot agree ,:vith that proposal think $50 is quite ample.

to increase the penalty.

I Mr. ROTH : These offences occur in Georgetown I think the penalty ceeding $100.

should be not ex­ and not in the interior.

-iintoxicating Dr. SINGH: We are trying to pre­ pare the Amerindians ship.
for full ciitizen­ The Commuttee divided torney General's, amendment on tne At­ and voted: For --Messrs. Morrish, Smellie, Roth, the Attorney Colonial Secretar y - 5.

General and the Against - Messrs. Carter, Phang, Fernandes, Farnum, Thompson, Lee, Wight, Dr. Jagan and Peters, Raatgever, Dr. Singh ...._ 11.

I feel thiat •we S'hould devise s,ome Amiendment lost.

have been people would not want to means whereby in eXJcess.
If, in spite of drink li,quor law, Amerindians the e�isting able to g.et liquor I do not feel that now that we are enacting ntw there is any necessity for legislation a p?.nalty.

such a dause attaching I am are consuming sure that Arri.�rindians iiquor today although the1 law forbids it to be sold to them, but that the co�­ sumption not be harmful to th2m in any way.
I feel that as the present tive, in the sen e that people are break­ ing it, Governmen is to an extent which would law is inope1·a­ t would b{' well ad- Clause 35, as amended in sub­ dause, (1), was then put and agreed to Clause 36-Penalty for possession of intoxicati'_ng liquor by AmerindwntJ.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: 1 of Clause 36 as in the Bill, and the substitution move the deletion printed of the following new clause 36 :- "36.
Any Amerindian in .any Area, District possession or Village who is found in of intoxicating liquor other- �893 A me1 <indian Bill 10TH MAY, 1951 -Committee 2894 with the terms wise than in accordance of a licence granted to and conditions him in that behalf by the District missioner conviction twenty-ifive shall be liable on summary to a penalty not exceeding dollars."

Com­ Dr. JAGAN: During the debate on of this Bill the hon.
Sm1th (Mr. to the apartheid policy, of reg­ that the question would· de­ of certain the second reading Member for Georgetown Carter) referred and suggested istration rights.

prive the Amerindians I feel that cilause 36 will deprive the Amerindians of certain enjoyed by other people, they are registered ject to the provision of Amerindians they would be sub­ rights which are in this clause.

because if Mr. ROTH: I wonder whether the hon.

Mem):)er has read the amended draft of the clause whicih is typed?
not being al­ of intoxicating Dr. JAGAN: I am referring to the of Amerindians principle lowed to have possession liquor.

Whether there is an amendment of the clause or not the principle is still there.

to.

This clause seeks right which is inherent citizens agree with it.. That is what I am objecting to deny them a in all the other of this country, and I cannot Mr. RAATG:EVER: I am support­ ing the hon.

Member.
Member.

I think the clause should be deleted, with the rights and privileges After all the Amerindians rights and privileges.

it interferes of people.

because must have Mr. LEE: I do not k'.iow whether General supply or gift of intoxi­ in cases is over­ clause 37 which exempts the the hon.

the Attorney looki:qig sale, barter, cating liquor to Amerindians The amended clause 36 pro­ of illness.

vides a penalty against ''found liquor."


tain drinks from} cassava intoxicating any necessity for clause 36. in possession The Amerindians any Amerindian of �ntoxicat make cer­ which have I ca'!lnot se.e qualities.
ing (3) supplied not making for a penalty 30 (1) provides We are therefore The ATTORNEY GENERAL : Members are does not take away Clause 36, which certain anxious to delete, any rights fro� the Amerindians, be­ Ordinance cause under the existing for forfeiture section or given liquor of intoxicating to an.Amerindian, while sub-section not exceeding provides $25 for the, possession of intoxicating liquor.

any departure Amerindians.

Bill is to protect.


themselves in strong drink, then this provision must follow as a matter of course.

is not a question inating legislation dians.

The law is there already and is simply being put into this new legis­ lation.

Amerindi_ans should have the right to buy intoxicating liquor ad lib and to dlrtlnik it ad lib, then that is another matter.
from the law as regards If the object of th1� from Amerindians against Amerin­ If, of course, that we consider g discrim­ of providin It as regards over-indulgence We are endeavouring to enact legis­ to bring the of the Colony, up to the level of the other legis­ Dr. SINGH: We are enacting of the to the ways of life of lation in an endeavour Amerindians citizens and also to pro­ tect them.

In time they will make friends invited to spirituous put in the invidious position ing able to return the compliment.
they are educated they were not being treated this respect.

lation for the advancement Amerindians the other communities, spending which seek to protect liquor.

If hon.

Members feel toxicating that.

there should be no restriction, and that the Amerindians the fullest to take the bet­ te-r O'l' the worse, then rthat is a dif­ ferent matter.

°l would suiggest should se1e• that these people are assisted way.
in the best possible with other citizens to the City and -pe,rhaps yet we are our time in debating but they would be of not be­ they would feel that opportunity them against in: ehould have clauses treated liquor, and will be well in that we If 2895 Amerindian Bill LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
-Committee 2896 liquor, of · intoxiciating for being Mr. LEE : We are providing a �enalty ag�inst Amerindians m possess10n and at t,he same time exempting "the :I1a1:ufacture liquor mdians of the intoxicating known as piwarri, toxicating any mstom prevailing dians."

or any similar in­ liquor in accordance with among Amerin­ by Am,er­ and consumption apply to piwarri liquor which they are accustomed.

which is a type of and to used by the Amerindians, Mr. LEE: It is nevertheless an in­ toxicating liquor.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL: It may be so, but it is something they are accustomed.

to which.

Mr. ROTH: Piwarri is ferm.ented liquor.

Mr. LEE : We are allowing them to manuf.aature liquor Wlhioh i,s intoXJicaitrlill\g, their own fermented The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The hon.

Miem1ber distresses at the beginning see that it says "This Part of the Or­ dinance shall not apply to---" of clause 37 he will me.

If he looks Dr. JAGAN: The hon.


Member is trying to make the point that piwarri is more intoxicating are exempting not be allowed .

eating liquor?

piwarri to drink other intoxi- why should they than rum.

If we iv.Ir.
If we iv.Ir.

WIG HT: I am rather inclined because is of intoxicating that no person it is going to be dif­ to the view that clause 36 should be deleted, ficult to see 1how an Amerindian going to be in possession liquor when ,one re-ads supply Ol\ give him shall .sell, barter, I think an Amerin­ intoxicating liquor.

dian should be allowed a certain amount is of freedom.
given for them to be ,supplied with in­ toxicating How do we know what liquor prescribed I do not think they should be entirely debarred ·own volition, g liquor if they can obtain it.

In clause 37 permission for them, and in what form'?

liquor in1 cases of illness.

from possessin of their would be The Committee divided on clause 36 and voted : Mr. ROTH: For the information of the hon.
Member I may point out that or four gallons it takes thrc•e mented liquor to intoxicate man, whereas liquor would put him out.

of fer­ an average two drams of spirituous Fi01·-Messrs. Morrish, Smellie, Fernandes, Dr. Farnum, Thompson, Singh, the Attorney General and the Colonial Secretary-8.

Against-Messrs. Phang, Peters, R.aatgever, -6.

Lee, Wight and Dr. J agan The CHAIRMAN: I think the hon.
the fact are em­ Member is also overlooking that the Vil.Iage, Councils powered to make rules restricting the manufacture, o.f piwarri.

Clause 36 carried.

Clause 37-Exemptions.

Mr. LEE: I am· only calling tention to the fact tJhat the mere possession of liquor i.s an offence, but you: say it does not apply to piwarri.

at­ move the deletion the aforesaid (a).

purpose" of the words "for in paragraph The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The hon.
Member will appreciate that piwarri have been accustomed eratioJJ.S.

.that this Part of the Bill shall not !

to use for gen­ Clause 37 states specificaily is a liquor which Amerindians agreed to.

Council resumed and was adjourned 17th May .. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 37, as amended, put, and