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1,549 Jl/embe,·s f'nse,1t • LEGISLATIVE CouNOlT,.

Announce,11ents LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Unofficial Member).

The Hon.

J. W. Jackson �Nominate •Friday, 30th Octob<ir, 194:2.

The Hon.

C. V. Wight Essequebo ).

., 'Jhe Council lency the Goveruor, LETHEM, K.C.M.O Chair.

met at noon, Bis Excel­ Sir GORDON ., President, in the ..

The Clerk read prayers.

'I PRE-SENT: The Hon.

the Colonial Secretary, Mr. G. D. Owen, C.M.G.

MINUTES.
MINUTES.

The minutes of the meeting of the 29th Council held on Thursday, 1942, were confirmed.

October, 'l'he Hon.

the Attorney-General, �r.

E. 0.

Pretheroe, M.C., K.C.

ANNOUNCEMENTS The Hon.

J. S. Dash, Director of A�riculture.

The Hon.

E. A. Luckhoa, O.B.E., ( Eastern Berbice ).

The Hon.

E. G. Woolford, K.C., (New Amsterdam).

The Hon.

E. F. McDavid, C.B.E., Colonial Treasurer.

The Hon.

M. B. G. Austin, Member).

Unofficial (Nominated 0 B,E., The Hon.

W. A.

D'Anc1radr, of Customs.


Comptroller O.B.E., PROROGATION THE PRESIDENT: OF COUNCIL Hon.

Members I have no announcements before to make· this morning the to prorogue s meeting, the which is not of Council, of importance except that I propose session for good after to-day' and I trust we will complete us to-da,y business very long.

We hava left the Education Hill in the Committee Georgetown Colonial motion.

'.I.

'here Secretary's also the motion by the hon.


Member for Berbice may, however, later meeting Rtage, the · Rating Bill and the · is River lMr.

Eleazar) wish to bring it up at a who .

The Hon.

M. B. Laing, O.B.E., Com­ missioner of Local Governmeut.

The Hon.

G. 0.

Case, Cunsulting Engineer.

The Hon.

B. R. Wood, Conservator of Forests.

I would like Members of the Execu­ to meet me for a few for a small bit of business.
tive Council minutes Some papers have been submitted to me which I would iike to deal with in Committee.

Finance The Hon.

Percy C. Wight, O.B.E., (Georgetown Central).

The Hon.

J. Eleazar ,Berbice Ri,·er).

The Hon.

J. I. c.feAguiar (Central Demerara).

The Hon.

Peer B·:cchus (Western Berbice).

Th1;:1 Hon.

l:I. C. Humphrys, K.C.

(Eastern Demerara).

Thn Hon.

C. R. Jacob (!forth­ W cst�p1 Dis tri�t ), REPORT OF RICE FARMERS (TERMS OF TENANCY, On yesterday's and no etc.)

Committee, ETC.)
Committee, ETC.)

C01t1MITTEE agenda there w:is the report of the Rice Farmers (Terms of Tenancy, Member ha\'ing moved propose regard to it, I publication.

A document which is a report to this Council, would not of courlle be released it had been laid aµd op_port-qnit in Council y t!lken� if any ¥�011:ie; any motion in it for to releast'l of that kind, formally until .. ,;,;i 1,551 Announcements 30 OcTomm, 1942.

Education (Amclt), Bill 1,552 • ,wished to take any action in regard to publication.
it, to prevent not 'J'hat being the case I propose to release it for publication.

Secrefa.ry tunity to make a personal now.

I therefore so.

would like to have an oppor­ call upon him to do obeervation STAFJl.

the Council (APPEALS) I undertook BILL (AMENDMENT) the Bill because we are on it.

I stated yesterday SUMMARY JURI8DICTION and there had for opportunity since it was first some weeks I would like to make one comment ou the procedure yesterday in regard to the Summary Jurisdiction (Appeals) Bill.
I took action to (Amendment) complete the point of prorogation, been very considerable discussion of its details brought before before.

I was given to understand that the lawyers discussion Crown on the form in which the Bill should properly go through, and that was met by the adoption which is the exact model of the Trinidad legislat ion on the subject, have no reasou to believe factory.

ye!

:lterday, pressed a period of yea.rs, bring it to :finality.
is, as I said that the Bill has been over for by two Chief Justices Sc:mth (Mr. to con­ either I made yesterday or that, DEEDS REGISTRY TnE COLONIAL SECRETARY: In view ot a remark made by the hon.

Member for Georgetown Gonsalves) firm a statement to correct speaking from memory, no representa­ tion had been recei rnd by Government during the last two years from the in connection Registrar and the paucity officers.
I ha,·e had a thorough made in the offict>, and I am in a position to say that my statement correct·.

In fact, the period was longer than two years.

The last two represent­ ations were made in April, 1940, and ·June, l!

:Jl.l,O, trar.

At that time he pointed l>y the transfer officer to whom I reforred another Department his senior staf would be weakened.
with his staff of the number of senior search out that of a cedain officer (the haq had considerable by the then acting Regis­ with the Law Officers to yesterday) f and I felt 1 had to My position of a clause is unsatis­ and which I of the "'as Since June, 1940, As I mentioned yesterd,1y, the whole out at length with predecessor, and it that the officer should be I can­ matter was threshed Your Excellency's was decided transferred.
not trace any further from that Department I should like to mention of that Department lent opportunity to whenever a trnusfer t:p for consideration until quite recently J think it was some time last he had a seat on the Appoint­ year), ments and Promotions had a very excel­ press his case from his office came bcc:mse, that the Head Board, ORD��R OF THE DAY.

on a and for discus­ 'fhe amendment put before us yester­ us to take a CJ nick decision technical point ·without any notice day forced rather at all.
Had we not been on the point of prorogation, aud had I not felt that we should briog it to finality that ample opportunity ion had been given I would, of course, have deferred the Bill in some way or other.

As it was I felt it was necessary there must be finality somewhere.

giving my assent to the .Bill until I am entirely useful that no further purpose would be served by further local discussion, the scrulioy Advisers completing and I can also ask for and the to the Secretary the action.
What I can do is to defer of the Law Officers to proceed satis:fieq to finality,­ of discussion of State before BILL, J 942.

EDU CATION ( AllIENDMENT) into itself The Council resolved A p0iut arosP-during yesterday's r-,,,c-=-edin�s npf)n which the Colonial Education Ordinance.

and resumed consideration Committee Bill :- of the following an Ordinance A Bill intituled to amend the representations and, incidentally, --- 1,553 Eci1tcation (Amclt.)

Bili LEGISLATIVE CouNc-kr,·.


1,554 Mr. JACOB: I crave Your Excel­ Mr. ELEAZAR: The present .se_ctio '1,., ., - lency's speech of yesterday.

indulgence to refer to yom says:- THE CHAIRMAN : You will have an opportunity later.

for Berbice River (Mr. Eleazar) to have further Hill.

In what form would he like to make his observ:i.tions?

The.

hon.

Member wished this time to consider Mr. ELEAZAR: I wish to refer to clause 8, and to say that the remedy is worse than the disease.

The new section 5.'5A.


(1) says:- against 55A.

(1) When a complaint a teacher in an aided school has been preferred to the he may forward a copy -of the Director, complaint to tbe governing such body to interdict and the gqvcrning request.

body shall comply with that body und request that teacher from duty, against 55.
(1) When a complaint a teacher · .to the qody to the g-overning he may request that teacher in an aided school has been preferred Director, interdict gate the matter of the complaint, upon it shall be the duty of the governin·g to carry out that request.

from duty and investi­ and_.ther.e· body That has alw:i,ys beau the hon� contention.

THE CHAIRMAN : This is exactly the same, isn't it?


:\1:r. ELEAZAR: Yes, sir, I am say_ing It was found that that section all that it was the bone of contention the time, but now that it is sought to remedy it the remedy is worse than the disea5e.

was unfair to the teacher.

plaint should be forwarded Governing so many days to exculpa he fails to do so then he should be pending further interdicted tion.

Subsection crim­ in order.


Io the case of a serious inal offence I Cfl.n quite understand a wan ting to hide himself.

teacher The com·­ to the (2) seems to be quite investiga­ Body and the teacher given .te himself.

If That section has alwaysgiven the moment a compbint is trouble a because to be guilty is presumed he transmits to rhe Director at once.
Heference became I do not know is made against it to the Govern­ but if that is the procedure it is observed a complaint · au officer of the Civil Service because forwarded teacher ing Body, and from that moment the teacher he is interdicted h.1� been made to the Uivil Service Regulations, under those Reguh1tions in the bre.tch, that because against he is interdicted known of several receipt he is called tion, and if it is not satisfactory interdicted.
be interdicted receipt be 20 teachers tln-oughout a copy of the complaint should to the teacher, opportunity his explanation should then be iuteruirted.

from duty.

I have cases in which, on the against upon to ma,ke .1n explana­ on duty in some mouths the whole Colony.
I think be sent who should be �iven an I thick if ,1 teacher from duty on the mere there would not of a complaint of a complaint to exculpate au officE:.r, he is is to THE CHAIRMAN : Have you any to raise on other parts of other points the section ?

Mr. ELEAZAR: Yes, sir.

Later on I see the Bill says :- (3) If after considering tho governing teacher copy of the said reply to the Director.
replj' body is of opinion that tho it shall send a has exculpated himself the teacher's (4)If the teacher period aforesaid the Director exculpate in after referred appointed, into the matter fails to reply within or or if the governing body that he has failed to (here­ a board of inquiry is of opinion himself the to as "the board") shall be as hereinafter provided, to enquire of the complaint.
(5)The board shall consist two members of the governing b:i nominated the Education Chairman Director: by such body, and an officer of Department who shall be the by the of the board to be appointed of not more than body, who shall If is unsatisfactory he him,;elf.

Provided that the manager of the School where the teacher the allegi;tions shall not be a member of the board.

was employed contained at the date ·of in any complaint •rHE CHAIRMAN : What.

is the It is too complicated .

.If the Go�- present ?


practice eruing Bo<ly is of the opi�ion.

that the l,o'i;i, Education (Amdt.)

Bill 30 OcTOBPm, l.942.

·-Committee1,5·5�· t,J the remarks to exculpate rule I see no difficulty himself a Board consist­ Mr. LUCKHOO: I have listened interest teacher has failed the same body appoints ing of two of its members and an officer of the Education Department.

In other words, the Governing Body its will sit as .a.

Court of Appeal against own decision.


I do not know how the at this Dil'ector of Education procedure, because the we discussed matter some time ago.

I know he had some difficulty of procedure, be rather cumbersome.

I know that is given a teacher and when necessary with considerable of the hon.

Member, and if it is the existing in having it removl'd.
As a member of the Education every opportunity exculpate evidence Director and on the slightest is interdicted section case of a complaint to ask that a teacher I do not think ho always exercises power.

himself, is taken.

I do not think the arbitrarily ex':lrcises pretext from duty.

I think this nature but that THE CHAIRMAN : Are you saying bis power, a teacher that it is too elaborate be interdicted, but this seems to me tc, gives the Director in arriving of a serious ?
It docs give Committee at a method power in the arrived to .. every opportunity .

teacher.

.

· appeals.

for appeal by the He has no less than two Mr; ELEAZAR : The Board of Inquiry the Governing of members of Body in the first instance.

should consist THE CHAIRMAN: As Governor I but only in very serious can interdict, cases.

I have that power in respect of civil servants.

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS : I suµ;gest THE CHAIRMAN : Are you suggest­ ing that the Board of Inquiry should be one Committee.
that the section request should reatl '.'

may · such body to intenlict."

Mr. ELEAZAR: Yes, it is absolutely necessary.

'l'HE CHAIRMAN: lt is "may now, but it is governed by the line.

request" word " may" in the previous THE CHAIRMAN : And the next step should be to the Education Uom• mittee?

Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: If it iB so, it is a little ambiguous.

Mr. ELEAZAR: Yes.

Ttl.E CHAIRMAN: I think if it went to a Committee, want to appoint from itself.
find that the quickaned that Committee a Committee I do not think vou would procedure would of Inquiry • would be up.

'fI-tE ATTORNEY-GENE RAL: If we insed a second " m<1.y " it would mean that the Director teacher io!!

; a. copy of the complaint.

may rei[U!

:lSt that a without Le iuterdicted re11uest­ Mr. ELEAZAR: If it i1, a serions complaint Director interdic�ed one can understand that a teacher ret1uestinLr the he from d�ty.
Mr. ELEAZAR: An appeal {s made <1.ud if the Com­ to the Committee, mittee chooses to appoint of its members to enquire would be a matter for It would still be the Committeie all the time .

two or three into it that acting the Committee.

'IRE CHAIRMAN: I gather that sub­ (3) and ( 4) are new, but as that is the the interdiction rule.

Rections re(J'ards exi:stiog " THE CHAIRMAN: But that is what Surely on receipt a teacher complaint.

does at present.
does at present.

body to of a the Director he does not ask :1 gover11ing interdict trivial H<1.ve you any knowl­ edge of his having done so ?

You must leave something senior officers.

stupid, expected I am told, but they may be t0 the discretion They may lie very to use some discretion.

Have o[ 1,557 EJucation (Amclt.)

Bill LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-Committee l,'55S you any specific tion havi11g very trivial knowledge of interdic­ been made on something ?
Mr. ELEAZAR: A serious complaint at the start, quite trivial.

discretion.

but it turnell The Director out to be had no THE CHAIRMAN: Does it in fact happen that teachers trivial complaints ?

are interdicted on if It seems to me that fears may be allayed were made in the Rules hon.

Member's pro,•isiou which are to be prescribed by the Governor in Council, of any individual.

the procedure judicial, would have to be carried judicial were provided for iu the Rules then all those fears which I.he hon.
perhaps Member h:1s might be allayed, the charges but notwithstanding out in a set out here is quasi that it because Mr. ELEAZAR: Yes, it has often happened.

necessary to try to change it.

'l'hat is why it is thought manner.

If representation for representation 'l'HE CHAIRMAN : 1f we accept your suggestion it cancels for interdicting public interest, his school.
a teacher who, in the should not remain in any opportunity Mr. ELEAZAR: There is something in what you say, Rir, but you ca,n see wba� it means to the teacher.

Trrn CHAIRMAN: People seem always anxious They do not seem to be frightened these RegulationA.

tu go iuto public service.

by a l\'Jr.

ELEAZAR: Very recently an officer against that he spoke very officer.

He was complaint was 1r.ade in the Civil Service loudly to his superior interdicted instated six weeks it was decided to trnnsfer him.
for si�� weeks but was re­ TnE CH.ACRM:AN: It sounds like a verbal assault.

(laughter).

l\fr.

ELEAZAR : 1 think there is science in the law by which could frame sufficient the Attorney-General something-which would obviate the on the uecessity to interdict meri; receipt by the Director.

of a Eerions before m lking a cl111rge nature a<ntinst know­ a schoolmaster, ing that"' if they did not support it would befall something of a complaint People would think twice a teache,r them.
Mr. C. V. WIGHT : Perhaps the would be fully investigated.

the is made I do nut think that a compl:1int to incur the ill will and they automatically is made against a. inter­ he is immediately from duty.

I do not think that Mr. JACOB: I think a teacher should be placed on i he same footing as a civil servant.

when a complaint civil servant dicted merely because to the Di rector he i:;huuld order the Governing Body to interdict teacher.
Most of the Governing Bodies u re afrai•J of tl1e Director, Llo just what thl)y &.re told.

I know of one or two Cflses of there i!

:I the case of a teacher interdicted reinstated, sum or money wLich he was not paid during the period of his interdiction.

sure of my facts but I I am not 11uite think that is so.

I think the hon.

Member for Berbice River (l\Ir.

is aware of that case.


A teacher is a civil servant in every respect and should be treated an ordinary power should be granted the Departrnenl Body to intcrdirt to order a Governing a. teacher.

l'rom duty and subsequently and lie is chimio� a lur�e in the same way as th,1t kind.

I think civil servant.

�o special 01· dismiss Eleazar) the Head of who was THE CHA.IRMAN' ; That is of course arc in a logical, but teachers If Government in Departments perfectly rather special position.
were to treat a.II persons working for Government like the Education port and Harbours same wa.y as the ordinary we would pile up machinery which would simply break the back of our in the civil servants Dep,1rtmeot ,md the 'l'runs­ Department after an investigation.

After _., 1,559 Editcation (Amell.)

Bill 30 OcTOBER, 194:2.

-Commitl1'e 1,560 of accounts, and THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we under­ s tand that.
an oppor­ concernen of Education of a complaint Mr. LUCK HOO: I am sorry the is not here to I am not on which the has taken extreme measures ,�ithout Director defend his position·, but as a member of the Education Committee aw.ire of any occasion Director on receipt giving the teacher tunity to be heard.

I have known of cases in which te,tchers interdicted conduct or falsification Lhose matters have been gone into by the Education not be alarmed.

over this matter.
over this matter.

No havA b�en cited where the instances his has arbitrarily Director power to the detriment therefore rem·iin exercised of a teacher, that the law have been of immoral I am suggesting on charges Committee.

as it stands.

We 11eed Mr. C. V. WIGHT: 'l'he hon.

Men1- mentioned cases of has been That i11 itself Oue can understcmd ber unfortunately immorality.

stretched.

immon1lity school, been forced into the Education Code.

'l'h,tt seems to me a gradual law.


ment on tha criminal in relation but any private to pupils in the act has now encl'ouch­ IE every were given the right to full central Administration.

teacher with the Civil Service compliance it would mean that I .Regulation!

:I ·personally would have to gi ,·e some pours to each ca.Re before it could b� .

decided that the inl1uiry .1nd the tea,cher I think it interdicted.

-is askiug too much.


One bas to dele­ gate some power to Heads of Depart­ inents should go on It is extremely dis­ the Mr. JACOB: I wanted to rai,:e of the :..:;ouncil of the change of the Constitu­ _question ,tion and the prorogation -yery ehortly.

�appointing to me-- /: THE CHAIRl\'IAN: We are talking ·;_;about tea:!hers .

� .... � .. Mr. JACOB: You liave referred .

, the Administration.

now, to THE CHAIRMAN: But we ,1re st.ill _.: dealing with teachers.
If you wish to of that kind I will speak on anything give you an opportunity later.

Mr. JACOB: I just want to make a It is e:dremely of Educ'.ltion to me that we should all point about the Director.

disappointing allow the Director tLeee extreme powers.

I am hoping that all these Jaws will be quashed very rapidly.

gress in this Colony and in Colonial Administration laws are scntpped £or all concerned.

in a state of chaos.

1 .,m Lletinitely against tion any further powers.


the sooner all these or amended the better The whole thing is giving the Director If there is to be pro­ .

of Educa­ THE CHAIRMAN: I think we might proceed to put the ameudment deletion such b0tly to duty" in clause 55A.

interdict of the words " and 1 eq uest for the that teacher from Amendment put .tnd lost.

Clause 55A put, and agreed to.


THE CHL\.IRMAN: We are not giving him any further the H.ule as it stands at present, and I am not perso1rnlly a ,v.1re of its abuse.

powers.

It is ex:J.ctly Clause 5.5 (4).

- Mr. ELEAZAR: I cannot sell any for this clause.

uecessity THE CHA!RMAN : It is all in the Mt·.

JACOB: If these are the exact interest of the teacher.

powers he has they are arbitrary.

another have had occasion Inquiry.

Director what happeus action he has takeo.


I am not in the Governor does not think that favour of granting any Head of officer has exculpated Department arbitrary powers now or a BoJrd of Inquiry.

-in the future.

himself It seems to me chance to go before a Bo,ird oE about some arbitrary This is exactly to speak to the He is given recently he orders an I parallel in lbc Civil Service.

If to 1,!361 E,lucation (Amdt.)

Bill LEGIST,ATIVE COUNCIL.

-Committee 1,562 rather fair.


You may object to the personnel of the Board.

forthwith ingly."

inform the Director accord­ THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Mr. ELEAZAR : If the Director Up of Inquiry has given a statement.

to the stage of the Board the only thing that has happened tba t the teacher All that has happened is that the Governing to submit a written been no inquiry statement of any sort; merely a by ihe teacher.

reply.
reply.

There ha,g Body has askell the teacher is Mr. C. V. WIGHT: There is one CO}lrse has already We know that given in the ordinary courts have to be gi1·en except ion ; the teacher given a statement.

statements in criminal under certain inadvisable ments when charged.

in which the gives a statement Body find� he bas not Governing exculpated can what further himself, he add when he gets before the Board ?

It is.

very conditions.


for persons to give state­ If a teacher It will be a an officer of his to· a thing and he be of tha same opinion himself objects h:is to nominate to be on it, be will Department not naturally want his own man to be Chairman of the Board to make the e::iquiry.

In nine cases out of ten that officer will himself.

as the Director case of appealing Caesar.

I t!1ink ma.de Chairman.

shall be the Chairman be appointed In deleted its own Chairman.
The Chairman should not be an officer of the Educa­ tion Departu)ent.

appoints of his Department man?


from Caesar to someone else should be All those words " who of the Board to by the Director and let the Board find the Board and then an officer shall be the Chair­ " should The Director THE CHAIRMAN : The Board must Tm: ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The states that if the fails to repl_y within fourteen clause specifically teacher days a Board of Inquiry shall be ;1ppointecl, which indicates that he need not make a statement.

of not.
of not.

more than two members consist of the Go\•erning nominated right.

Tlien there must be a.

Chairman.

Wh > will appoiut by that uody TLat is all Body, who sha.11 be the Chairman ?

Mr. C V. 'vVIGHr: I support that Mr. C. V. WIGHT: The t.eacher given his defence the Governing Body has already decided on what action should be taken.

What then is the Board of Inc1uiry to enquire having into ?

l do not think an officer amendment.

of the Department with the enquiry.


Chairma.n be appointed Govemor in Council, the Board of Education.

should be concerned I suggest 1hat the by the independent of 'l'HE CRAIB.MAN: Has the hon.

Membet· any specific for Berbice amendment to move ?

River (Mr. Eleazar) Mr. ELEAZAR: I think it is the that is spoiling the whole verbiage thing.

THE CHAIRMAN: There again you up a very minor executive are bringing matter in the Executive it a,eragas around.
It i8 making too much- where 21 days to get a paper Council, THE CHAIRMAN: What precisely do you move?

Mr. C. V. WIGHT: 'l'he Chairman may be appointed then.

General by the Attorney­ :Mr. ELEAZAR: I move the deletion of all the words after the word " him­ Relf" in the fourth line of sub-clause (5)and the insertion words : " the Governing of the following Body shall THE CHAIRMAN: You think should not be au offic0r of the Depart ment?

he­ Mr. C. V. WIGHT: If au officer of ) r 1,56:1 Ech,cation (Amdt.)
!Jill 30 OCTOBER, 194 2.

-Committeel,564 he will appoint can appoint anyone he is in charge of the County concerned.

'l'he Director likes und naturnlly one wlio he knows is not biassed but one who knows procedure and can assist the local Governing Body on the Rules o[ Evidence.

tion of appointing Department.

That is the inten­ a member of the the Department the Board, then the Chairman should be appointed by au independent body.

bas to be a member of point is not prejudiced.

to-day, applies.

Servant.


lt is 110 is an Ordinance It is to Refl that the Body of schools.

of the Department with by ordinnry members of It is, THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL th,it the Director : ::issumes of ,ne and his Department The reason for putting an 011 the Bo�rd Everybody Educntion concerned.

officer is the reverse.


Government's In fact, he is the only one capn ble or known to going through the procedure Civil Servants which i� as an enquiry, trn ly a judici:i l en(fuiry held by the Law and the Crimi1rnl Service That will not be of Evidence complied the Governing that one member therefore, essential should be able to apply the law o[ Criminal 'I hen there is the E"idence.

fart that the man who is most likely to know the Education f of icer of the Education Department.
Tlmt officer is HO more prej urliced t ban any other Government concern of ours.

We treat everybo1ly a� units.

We have 110 interest 'S.

J t is wron_g to think that as soon ::is the Director of his Depart,nent mun at the enqniry The first thing ho hen.rs a.bout cliced.

the matter is ":hen he gets a letter appointin� 'the Board which "·ill �it somewhere other-in for exn mple.

Tlien the p1 pers ::ire sent to him in the ordin::iry the ExecutiYc Council, au,l be goes clown und holds the enquiry.
His duty is to see that the enquiry rnnge.

Iu other worrls, complete The officer life worki11!!

nance and Ed uc,1t that Code and Ordinance.

the case there is no reason to think he is going to be prejudiced.

Therefore, I s11ggest appointed Chairrqan, is kept within leg;1l thnt it is not made a farce.

It has this ttLi vantage : has spent ;;ome years of his Ordi­ with the Educa,tion ion Code and knows '1.

'h<it being f ficer ,.


an o who sits :is Cha.ir­ is forthwith w.,y as is done in Councii or the Town Officer be not th� one who him 1o sit .1s Chairman starts proceedings the l\orth-vVest that an Education or in Berhice ourselvl of or pr<:!ju­ Mr. JACOB: I think a way out of be to allow the Board Leave ihe Chair­ the difliculty m::i.y to appoint its own Chairman.

it to the Bo::ird to ::ippoint man.


II' the one capable officer appointed umong its members, of the Department Body has no then an may be Governing .

.

'fH!!

: A'l'TORNEY-GENERAL: Does it will be the hon.

Member re·ilize making 1 he enquiry ::i complete farce ?

Ir the Ghairman has a, casting rnte then you arc g1vmg the GoYerning against the reason why it is not done.

the other man's one.

That is .Body three votes.

.Mr.


JACOB: The other reason is, it of this is going-to say or do any­ is alway1; known that no officer Government f licer of Govern­ thing a�ain,t o another ment and more particularly of Government.

otfic r detinite going against ol'ficer of Government.

lf there is a nu junior officer the opinion ol' a senior opinion, is a seni,,r Mr. E LEAZ i\ R : 'fhat is the result th" number of Boards.

then refer thn matter Committee of which of multiplying H it is tr,e case, as the bou.
Attorney­ General has s.1id, to the Education the Director he 111ay hold bdore, he can con­ view., tinue to do so but the whole Committee is there tojoin with or go agaiust Iii 11.

Two m,-m are pnt on the Board, and must he nomimite them and then turn back and say one should be Chainn·rn i» Chairman.

Whatever ': THE CHAIRMAN: What precisP.

!y is ?

I di.1 not get the your amen<!l-ment actqal wording.

We w�nt it in a Sf>eGi· J ,5G5 · Eclncation (-Amdt.)

Bill LEGIBLATIVB COUNCIL.


-Committee 1,566 fie form.

That is why I complained that Members do not take yesterday to study the drafts as the trouble 11nd to come with their amend­ published that notice ments raady, and preferably be given of such amendments so that.

It and answered.

they can be debated is a hopeless ing Government business tbeLegisl11tive points.
waste of time in conducj:­ desultory to come into talking Council Mr. ELEAZAR: I have always won­ dered why we could not get; the agenda before coming here.

will know what to do.

One know what he is corning to meet.

I[ we get it we r-loes not Trrn CHAIRMAN : I do not accept that, but you may ·move it.

Mr. ELEAZAR: The Committee Board sha.11 among themselves.

elect the Chairman or!

from THE CHAIRMAN :' I do not agree with that.

I do not think it is good, but I shall take it as an amendment.
Mr. ELEAZAR: What, I would like after debate and it is seen to urge and I have urged it since I have been here, is that when the Attorney-General makes a Bill and it is brought here and the principle is r1uestioned, what Members want to convey it is the Attorney-Geuerai's to find business the language to him what I want and the indicate point is a good one, he is to find the verbiage.

to put it in.
to put it in.

When I and THE CHAIRMAN : This Bill has been since the 2nd September published there bas been a very big opportunity reaJy.

to study it and have amendments You, tharefore, about cannot quarrel.

that now.

Can you g-ive us your pro• posed amendment sub-clause to the Com111ittee.

of the as it stands?

I will put it to the wording Mr. ELEAZAR: I say that the words be the Chairman "who shttll Board" should be omitted.

of the THE CHAIRMAN : Then you it and handed it · of such amendment.
should have written in, giYing notice at all until 'l ou do not say anything you come into the Council and then say " I have not read it but will read it OYernight".

THE CHAIRMAN: Then you will put iu the words " the Chairman be elected that suit you ?

among themselves?"

shall Will Mr. ELEAZAR: Government has a majority and, though it will cast-iron say "I think: it is right but I do not like it," it will knock it out with its cast-iron majority.
Mr. ELEAZAR: I suggest words should be deleted "the Chairman inserted poinh!d by the Governor sha.11 be ap­ in Council."

that those and the words THE CHAIRMAN: I caunol accept that.

Mr. ELEAZAR: That is why 1 am trying to get away from that.

Tm: CHAIRMAN : \Vhy not let from among them elect the Chn.irma.n ?

themselves THE CHAIRMAN : I put the amend­ ment that the words " who shall be the Chairman by the Director words " the Chairman be appointed themseh·es of the Board to be appointed ,.
be deleted, of the Board to by agreement therefor. "

inserted among and the Question lost.

-I put for the deletion, j and '.I HE CHAIRMAN : The consequeu• therefore tial amendment falls.

Mr. ELEAZAl-t: The wording should be " the Chn.irmnn pointed by :igreemeut <to be ap· by the members", Sub-clause 55D-Power to impose penalties, Sub-clause passed as printed.

r 1,567 Georgetown Rating Bill, 194B 30 OCTOBER, 19�2.
-Sacond Reading 1,568 THE CHAIRMAN : jThe Committee to, 1 take it, is the Education referred Committee.

The Council resumed.

THE PRESIDENT : I propo:1e, if no objection reading of the Bill.

is taken, to take t he third THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I move that the Education No.

2) Bill be read a thi1;d passed.

time and (Amendment Professor DASH (Director 0f Agri­ culture) seconded.

Question " That this Bill h.e read a third time and passed" to.

put, and agreed Bill read tue third time.


Rating Valuation for Sir, BILL, 1942. been coming up to this year after year for the last RA.TING GEORGETOWN THE A'ITOR:N"EY-GENEBAL: this Bill is well known to hon.

Members as it has Council three or four years.

The necessity it is that the general but I mt1y in­ Bill is not yet enacted, form him.

Members that it has been in for some time the bands of the printers now und may appear in the Official Gazette ever, guarantee finished practically ing is concerned.
this is the last time this annaal Bill will come before I · do not, how­ it will.

Anyhow, it is to-morrow.

the Council.

so far as the print­ I think, therefore, I larger system is system.

numbers of people the Council 1 expressed for passing.
the statement There is no doubt sums of money and there is by the delay in passing legislation Mr. JACOB: Year after year I have opposeJ this Bill, and on the last the hope that it occasion would have been the last time and, was made that it think, would be the last time the Bill was coming before I do not know if it is again a mere just mere use of words-" it stateinent, may be the last time"-but I have no doubt that if the prPRent method it will go of doing things cr,nlinue<' on indefinitely.
that if the new r<1ting brought into force the Town Council is going to collect from the property-holders, no doubt that larger are benefiting the necessary new rating ought to take action a.ud Government press upon the Town Council to do its work properly I do not know if Government ia system satistiecl community, the or that the general poor people in the City of George­ as a result of town, are not suffering the system.

From my knowledge they suffe�in·g.


Rc1tes of wages are definitely are far too low and the Town Council the taxes as it 1-1hould.

is not collecting by allowin� I think this Government this Bill to be brought is iu effect to have the old system perpe­ Couucil object.

I strongly tuated.

should in no way support in its laxity.


Council cil should do its work properly pi-omptly, Legislature This Council the Town The Town Coun­ and and I do not think the shoul<l to bring in the I think the Central up year by year with-the Town and promptly.

aid it in the future.

conniving with the present rating Mr. C. V. WIGH'r : The io-norance who has j�st ta.ken is well known to everybody, wbo has taken an of the hon.

Member, his seat, about civic matters needs no reply and comment from me.
The position poor or otherwise, interest in The Town Council is doing everything but it is this nw.tter, it can to expedite a matter which needs careful investicra.

n the civic affairs of the City.

All hon.

Members are aware of the ou account of fact that it is necessary the Supreme Court having declared an to be null and void, and appraisement or the next year, 1943, there must be a valid appraisement and rating.
oi taxation of this Bill is identically the same as years that of the Bills of previous of one proviso of except in respect· I move that the minor importance.. Bill be read a second time.

list for the purpose 'l'he wording t -Professor DASH seconded.

• �,569 Motion LEGISLATIVE 'COUNCIL.

-W. I.

$cTu;,_ , PGol 1,570 has sat repeatedly matters.

civic welfare tion.

The Council for at least three or four times a week I inv·esligating do not know if the hon.
Merniber has to be a member of the any aspirations but if he.

does then r Town Council, desire investigation entering Chamber.

that he had better of civic welfare the porLals make a fuller before of the Council Question pur, and agreed t.o.

Bill read the second time .

The Council resolved a.nd proceeded Committee thP.

Bill clause by clause.

itsel[ into to consider The Bill passed without amendnient.

The Council resumed.

THE PRESIDENT : I prcpose to procrnJ with I here is no objection, of the Bill.
the third reading if 'l'BE ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Rating Bill, move that the Ueorgelown 1942, be reaLl a third time and passed.

I Professor DASH seconded.

Question "That this Bill be read a thtd time aud passed" to.

pnt, and agreed were to to send their vessels 's instruc­ arrange­ rates were high, if obtainable would give to the owners of schooners over in the Colony so that at all.

of Govern­ to get the their craft.

Hon.


agreed to the tempor• circular hy Your .Excellency of a temporary tion to approve ment whereby Gove1;nment 'Cover here or registerd the maximum use can be made of the shipping schooners.

space available in At that time the schooner-owners very reluctant sea.
War Risk Insurance extremely Even with the assistance ment it was impossible owners to release Members readily ary scheme put to them and they were informed that a scheme was under con· sideration West Indies Schooner has beeu made in regard to the scheme to at that time.
which was referred The plan of operation was prepared by Mr. Du Bois of the Anglo-American Caribbean has been considered by the Ser.retary the Comptroller Well"are Supplies Transport Department in conjunction with Mr. Du Bois and His Ex:celiency.

cently received operation �tockclale.

and in the West lndie�, the Officer and the War Liaison for the establishment of a Pool.
Progress of State for the Colonies, of Development and bis draft very carefully Government has re­ the final draft of the plan from Sit· Frank in Washington Commission .Bill read the third time.

Hoa.

Members around this table WEST INDIES ScHOONER PooL.

The following motion engaged attention:- Mes­ Barbados, :i.1.1proves and 'l'obazo, THAT with reference of the Go,·ernment to the Governor's this so.ge No.
15 of the :28th of October, 1942, Council of .Briti■h Guinna joiuiug with the GJvern rnents of Triuidad Islands o.nd the Winrlward lslanc.ls in the establisbmeat Pool" with the object of controlliug tro.tlic area.

for the duration necessary lin:i.ncial ghe effect to the propos:i.l lined in tho.t Message.

of n. " West Indies Schooner schooner iu the Eastern Group of the O tribbean of tbe war.

O.llll of the being m�de to on the llasis out­ the Leeward provision of seein� and If hon.
Members turn to tliat plan.

It has not be!

:)n to lay it on the table yet, but poiut has been have had an opportunity studying possible the most important brought out in Your Excellency's Message which was laid on the table yesterday.

that Message they will see that from paragraph in regard to fitl'lnce have been touched that the headquarters Authority that the Authority to be in �harge of it should have an Committee Advisory one from each of th& <.Jolaniee.

persons.

upon.
persons.

upon.

It is proposed of the Pool should be in Barbado.3 or person appointed and operntion most of the points consistin 4 onwards g of tive iind 1'1:TE COLONIAL SECRETARY : Io July last , hon.

Members were asked by � '1,571 .iJ!ytiori isO Oc rnnirt, 194'2.

-iv.

I. Sclio<>.,,w Pool l,'512 " public through �nemy action, it of on the basis as schooners must realize an internal of the Message to insurance to establish Hon.
Members will find to that in paragraph operators proposes in respect may be killed The by now that all the in this part of the world best to obtain shipping and compens:i.tion and crews who fund.

That will be formed in paragraph 7 and it is provided that the should either representatives area and, if those and others are avail­ will have power or owm,rs.

The to take over all that are offered to them for participating; Colonies' be schooner corporation schooners use irr the Caribbean are not suffi.
'Cient able, the Authority to requisition for \be trade in this area oE the Uaribbean.

fl.cation captains or injured is proposed insurance as stated by premium payments in the case of payments companies.

7. ouch J"eference charges will be borne by the respective in the same pro· portion as in the operating The maximum is set out for each Colony.
lu the case of British the maximum is £15,000 and Trinidad each, Barbados £10,000 and in respect of the other Colonies it is not yet decidei:l what the maximum is to be.

Any amount in excess of the maximum provided concerned by the Colonies used in Inter-Island traf­ will be met, it is hoped and expected, by His Majesty's Governments must do their space and, perhaps, it is advisable to mention here the definition schooner.
is made in the draft Order on page 1. what is It is stated there quite clearly in the .Pool meant by schooners -" any sea-going habitually fic, no matter the traffic."

There be one or two other vessels be taken over by the Pool Authorit will be under the sole The schooners control of the Pool and they Authority will receive instruction as to what cargo they should take and what ports they should go to.

ot that It is the first reference has, as a matter of Colony will may which may y.
These proposals Government.

and craft commonly that this Colonies joining Guiana.

cost.

have been considered With regard to financing- the scheme, l I If of the expenses and overhead each Colony pay .

The percentages Guiana's is hon.

Members will see in paragraph 6 of the Message that the working capital Pool is to be borne as far as possible by the Government participating.

hon.

Members turn over the page they will see that for the first year it is proposed that a fixed percentage are there set out.
British 25 per cent.

of the freight actualiy to the Colony and brought by the schooners.

year is to say what the charges year it is amount to, and in that to take the owners' proposed Trinidad are each to pay and Barbados 25 per cent.

and the Leeward and Windward the total of the charges paid on the goods imported iu' the first will The difficulty cost.

operating 25 per cent., charges.


lslandti making As regards the liability for iudemni- Council to ,tgree by the Governor in Executive and His Excellency fact, intimated be prepared to the scheme as set out subject of the Council Legislative is to-day being asked to confirm the by His Excel­ views already lency and the Com ptrollet· ment and Welfare on the subject.

standing in the West Indies I move that the motion in rny uame he approved.
to the approval ; and the expressed Council of De\'elop­ Mr. McDAVID seconded.

Mr. DEAGUIAR: I lrnlieve in giving where it is clue a,nd I have ri5eo to amount of pleasure prompt Government on its measure.

c,edit with a certain compliment despatch of such an important It is true that hon.
Members of Gouucil rise on very few occ.1sion tribute Stale but, opinion delay say that in this case whate,·et· of took place in the prompt execution this matter it was not due to the locai to tlie other Government s to pay in mitters of the I think, I am voicing for promptness uE the Council but, perhaps, to-day when I 1,513 Motion I.EGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

-W. I. Scliooner l'ool 1,574 the Secretary or presumably when it was seen that Colonies taking it on of State.
Nevertheless, the whole this measure was really put through with a great deal of despatch and, moreso, there would be some cela.y measure was introduced avoid the least possible to the people of this Colony.

There can be no doubt about it that the need for the use of schooners traffic recently, ·will continue War goes on.

considerably an<l I have reason to believe a temporary in order to to rise s"till more as the bas increased in Iutercolouial quite not only experience .
I had hoped tba.t in the plan they would have been able to produce a scale of rpayments to masters and owners but also as , regards the fixing of freight rates, pa.ymcnt and last but not ment and dismissal least the very important matter of r.ompens:ilion if through some unfortunate stance they lose their lives.
to crews, tlrn terms of employ­ to be paid to those men circum­ inconvenience of of as the result cost of the scheme As one or the Members who had an I it is impossible But I had hoped to find in the plan that would agreement It cannot be expected at any to arrive oE the traffic in the fast in­ opportunity the sclieme, of pernsing would like to say at the very beginning is concerned that so hr as the principle with the plan I am in entire as proposed.
that the Government will be in a position to-day, to say for instmce, what tho ultimate co�t will be because estimate stance aud, on the other hand, the loss t'1at might be sufiercd enemy action.

tlOme proposal have given at least some indication what the primttry would be.

I know it will be ex­ tremely what profit paid to a master or owner oE a vossel and that is something upon ought to be left o,·er to be decideJ io be formed by the by the Committee various Colonies to deal with this matter.
I think, however, thing in the nature of a guide ouhgh to be handed over to that.

Committeet'So that they will at least have some­ thing tu go by 3,nd not as it were ha vo to grope in the dark.

I realize the persons this Committee wiil be men of experience they ought to be able to do the best they ca.11 circumstauces that the plan is oue that has also been oy wen of worked out very carefully difficult to say, for instanc.
::, or what premium should be who will be appointed and, therefore, but, sir, that, perhaps, I also i-ealize that on that some­ in the to leave matters these points by I just mention I do not u1ention way of criticism.

what 1 think may have been dune.

As I said at .

the \'ery beginning, I am 11uite willing in the hands of the people who will be charged with the proper working ol: the scheme.
I have reason to beli.eve appointed ticular no doubt they will be a,ble to produce something factory that the men who will be in this par­ a.re efficient brauch of the work, and I ha.ve that will be ·entirely to ::ti!

satis­ of us.

for as I see here­ of liability 7 the liability there is a percentage until the Pool, as it were, of owners of schooners divided I I would like to turn for a momcut to where the has Colonies ooe part of the f1!!

;reement of the various liability beeu (ixed.


The liability, if I may use the expression-is into two parts.

In one paragrnph, think it is "six", of Your Excellency's Mesrnge for ad V:lllces can stand on its feet if it ever can do so.

In 1Jaragraph indeumif:icatiou loss o[ their craft and against possible compensation to the crew is stated.

not aware, a11d I do not think I have beard the hou.
mover of the motion make reference to the method that was em­ ployed in arriving I do uot know whether is based on the ability to pay in the proportion each Colony or whether of traffic will be put to by each of the Colonies" concerned.

To my mind points were considered.

it seems that as the result of the the percentage of each Colony set out against it is the amount or the use that those vessels at those percentages.

I wonder whether these I am '"I ' -·-, 1,575 Motion ao Oc'i:OB.BR, 1 '94.2_ -JV.
I. Schooner Pool 1,5'76 am wondering as are at least financial I think, it can required, I ha.ve in mind in which we are foodstuffs to this Colony, to this Colony.
to KO to another back something and if they clo, I large sum of money was cargo will be lanrled at the ports rather not by dBsign, for tranship­ to will such instances for the purpose that was but it lclo not think we have made such We are living in Colony or I have in miud some to cargo particularly changed conditions Jiving, of the neighbouring Islands-I not refer to them by name at the mo­ ment--not by accident, but by sheer necessity ment here and, I have no doubt, that will bring to that particular the tw(I Colonies benefit.
I refer of imported Ou the other hand if those vessels going to be used also to bring their produce be said right away that they also stanLI to benefit all the more, because one of the Islands will receive more outward cargo from here than we will receive from that particular therefore, of the liability of each Colony these points should not have been lost sight of.

One of the neighbouring at least is exceedingly could have share of the burden in apport,ioning 011 those grounds.
the liability want to hand out a friendly we arc always handing out friendly and in fact are always ,,ery gestures friendly to them only they do not believe us I though some of them do, whereas results show they get the better of us most of the time if not always-this is the time to do so.

as they must do the position Realizing even more than I do, this is an opportunity they will accept a bigger share than as Colony.
set out here against each when a fairly spent for a vessel to leave one of those Islands of bringing ,nost vital and urgently could not be said that from a trnffic was compen­ point of view the freight satory to the \·oyage.

I am beginniug think thi�t several arise, what will be the final outcome, what position will be the final of this Pool.

If the financial would position be on the bad side we in this Colony will have to pay our proportion i;et out.

Looking at it from that angle aloue, a good bargain.
strenuous may be regarded bargain in normal conditio entirely different nevertheless to work over there arc not so willin_g with us as, I happen to know, we are willing to work with them.

I look upon this arrangemant p,trtnenship and I liud hoped that, p(}rhaps, they would have been willing what.

I consider to be their fair share of the burdt:in.

They can afford it a.nd should ha,·e been asked tG do so.

Maybe they were asked and I have no doubt they were, but, like the big brother we are alwn.ys willin?
{ to give way and they were always willing accept.

It may be too late tu deal with this pha-;e of the matter, it is not, I do ask that 'some notice b,ken of my remarks seems in the consideration offered to them to say that If they gest.ure­ been asked to bear a greater Islands and to tDeet the Renous times, but if be prosperous in this respect.

Island.
Island.

It, to accept to it seems that our friends as a friendly times and, perhaps, what as a good enough ns has an outlook to-day, but I mav be saying something that, There is another point that bothers be recovered will mean nothing.

in the I notice that this Colony and, I ha,·e l:'.�ol a great dl-l�I 1£ not all, will from the cargo perhaps,• loug run, because I ima�rne that in theoperation of this ot the expcnditare, probably lifted in which case the points I have men­ tioned will not arise.
But I have in mind occasioos where that may not be the case, an<l I know of one instance which occurred me u little.

is to lie represented doubt, the appointment has some­ been made or Government body in view.

What I would like to see this Colony take an interest in, now that it is hoped to h::tve this scheme in very tihortly, operation or having someone on the spot to look after our internal I am dealing either to this port or vice ve1·su, not very long ago, cargo to this port.
with imported no has already is t.he question articles 1,577 1"Jtlotion L.:GISLATIVE CouNCIT,.

-W. I. Sclioone1· Pool l,578 .

wait 11ntil 01· another havd by these vessels be given a quota, the first return on the to considerable or Pool will be drnrged might have must neces­ and that is the insurance fund.

credited to this of establishing One last point I would like to mention or reply, an fund to meet claime?
I do that is the plan, but ments or suggestions that I to make in that re8pect sarily working of tha Pool is a vailable which for one reason to be lauded there, in the ca�e when the vessel is not proceeding here.

I see that the arrano·ement is that this Committee with the ,luty of anano-ino-for the is to of cargo pro r,ita� -;-['but lifting say each Colony will but I notice someone is to be char_ged with the duty of having to go there and make this booking.
It seems tlutt if we a.re going to have an organizlttio:1 they should not sit and wait until some­ one goes to them a::;.d say that we have 200 tons of cargo to go to Dememra before we can get any on any ve3sel coming dowu priority be opening­ here.

We would probably ourselves delay.

I think we should ha\·e someone over there to look after our interest I say that not only advisedly but I happen to know there is feelingly.
already some clifiiculty, considerable difficulty, from the Islands this Pool is charged not only entering meot or giving-priority looking after the cargo, seeing if it there and seeing where space is needed and then making bookings, we will find that some of these Yessel>i will come down here empty while cargo is over there to be lifted.

possible working of this Pool, I think Go\·em­ to this ment would be doing justice CQlony.
for information question of the internal 1 am not quite sure what is meant by that.

Am I to understand it is pro­ pos�d to levy a rate or charge a rate of premium ou the value of the cargo that is being lifted and the sums thus received fund for the purpose insurance not know whether if it is, I tbink the latter part of paragraph Mes8ng;e would probably course to t::tke.

That is, if po�sible it elsewhere underwrite own insurance.
carrying our this but we are starting a pessimist, it were, with an empty hand plan, as and it seems, to me having regard to the risks involved, to carry our own insurance we are still groping in the dark as we do not know what the cost will be.

It seems that the wiser rourse is to let others handle the insurance of doing so ourselves.
afraid we ma.y ue called upon to pay very hrge sums from time to time as the result tbut before any decision carry these risks ourseh·cs, we see whether it cannot be taken by others.

A part form these observations my whole-hearted motion receives port and, I repeat, be congratul,ttecl action taken this sup- Goverumen for the very prompt in this particular cargo transhipment to this port.

Unless with the duty of THE PRESIDENT : Which service?
7 of Your Excellency's :Mr. DEAGUIAR: The service of against the risks instead instead of I am not of tbese risks.

I do think but also of i� cargo for tranship­ in that rePp2ct.

If it is in the that if we are going that service I a,u rather I am afraid to include in lifting be a wiser t should is taken to to someone charged with the duty of going to the Pool and pointing out that we ha.v� so much cargo for British Guiana lying there.

If they do that they would be doing a □ervice Colony.
I notice in the proposed plan that this Pool will furnish it is stated from time to time returns or accounbi I would like to tell of its dealings.

you that I will be very interested in ::seeing those returns1 and any com - to the this motion.

I think it is a support but I would step in the right direction, like to make just a brief reference paragraphs 6 and 7 of Your Excellency's In paragraph 6 it is stn.ted Message.
As regards the financing :- of tliat t '-� Ch 1 �f � '.l.�e,>e and overhend expenses j jj' ..._, be borqe as f;ir a� µos�ible opern:tiag Lh'.l Pool, it is proµosed workmg capital Pool shollld of' the costs tnatter.

1 to Mr. JACOB : I too would like to _...::,...._ J 1,579 Afolion ;30 OCTOllER, 1942.
- W. l. Schooner Pool1,580 -- Colonies .... of the ;>a.rticipating t,hat each Governments and for .t,he first year it is intended Colony should acceµt liability centa.ges, and Tobago--25%, ward Islands-15% 10%.

Gniaua-:,l5%, Barbados-25%, and the Windward Islands i.e.-British per­ ou fixerl Trin, atl The Lee­ That seems fairly all rio·ht.

It also states that if there '"'is any over-payment it would be made up later on.

I havA no objection paragniph , it states :- to that.
But as regards or under-payment for indemnification by the Pool oE an iuternal As regards the liability fund to be built np by means of pre· oi it)s5 oE owners of schooners againzt possible their craft and compensation in respect of the or killed it, is pro­ aud crews injured captains posed that the situation should be met by the establishmeut insurance mium payments on the same basis as if made to an iosurar.ce company Colonies borne by the resoective proportion but with a definite maximum lio.bility posed that the tot,il lows :--British Toba:,?O -£15,000, Leeward Islands and the Windward lslands­ st.ilJ limit fixed prescribing of en.ch Colony.
It is pro· li111its shall be as fol­ Gniana--£15,000, nnd Trinidad - £l0,000, The in the same costs of the Pool, under consideration.

as to the operating to be ; such charges Barbados the I bave no objection to this Colouy but when the is putting and Tobago, I of the operating of this Colony is compared for indemnifica­ on the to that to show that if in re�ard to coste in putting up £15,000, importance with that of Trinidad think they should put up a larger sum.
When Barbados up £10,000 Guiana is it does appear that British in an unfavourable position.

I only dra w attention there is equal percentage financing putting up the money tion, it should be practically same Lasis.
British the same as Trinidad which, it is well kn,)wn, is far more prosperous not concerned I do not think it has escape1 Govern­ ment's notice, articles a defiuite arrangement so far as one article is concerned­ salt-1 think proper arrangement 1" maae· for ·importing caµ salt from the � Indies by schoon,ers Guiaua is paying aud Tobago of food are concerned there is but so for as certain so much with the cost.

than this Colony.

1 am ve.


In will prove cftecti and I trust this shortage so that and eYe:i though it may be done to relieve h:we hee11 bringing that situation it c,1·1not the here.

I know here, hnt for some reason or be do:ia at the i:s ,·ery bad something unfortnnat2 schooners article ,tnother moment The situation iurieeu.

I has forgotten Government's it .,o tint attention a8pect of it a11d the schooners to that t.rade and very urgently it or that it has escaped notice.

1 only mention return too.
can be paid to that do not think Go,·ernrnent Mr. ELEAZAR: I am not very fund even if it does not go is always very faulty that in an ernergency whenever the because of paying tributu to or showering bouquets on Go,·ernment Government does :inything, method employed and falls ,·ery far f'hort of the mark; but I realize a quick decision, the whole le11gth is far better than de­ looks imperfect, hav­ laved action, and in this instance i1;g regard to the perilo,1s times in which we are living ·we rnnst compli­ ment Govcrnme11t it has taken.
To add ex,uuple cept I am going to make the shortest speech 011 such an imminent question i11 this Council.

Gov­ my seat by saying I compli,nent may ernment on its action whatever be the result.

on the prompt action to rre­ THE COLONIAL SECRETARY : Demerara as to what cost of the scheme will be.

With regard to the first point raised by the hon.

Member i:or Central ( l\ir.


de Aguiar) I am sorry I cannot gi\'e him any information the primary 1 um sure that the persons who pre­ pared the scheme were indicate would be the last to attempt I gathered that not expect me t.o do so.

to do so.

the hon.

Member did what the cost will be, and I not prepared to I RhalI promptly t.ake Wit.h regard to the finaucing of the of the Colonies schem(I and the ability to pay, 1 think the hou.
Member has read the operatiug If he had not done so I do not think he wo11ld have br9ught up the point!

plan very c,1refully.

__,_ 1,581 111 otion l EGISLATJVE COUNCIL.

- W. I. Scl.ooncr Pool 1,582 weeks has Leen trying to find out whether an appointment I .t}ink there is every likelihood melsting with success, pronouncement cannot stage.

but a definite­ be made at this· can be made.· of our As regards the matter of carrying in paragraph our own insurance, is indicated Excellency's mi!iiread it.
the persons conaidered was worth while trying taken up outside.

I think that is what 7 of Your Message if I ha\'e not There again I take it that who drew up this plan have whether it very carefully to get insurance were but I kL1ow that we must do to get this Pool Mess[l,ge.

Govern­ but it came to a point where The first percentages proposed not quite the same as those shown in Your Excellency's ment did its best to strike a good bargiiin, it was considered possible everything <,!Oing.

I think hon.
I think hon.

Members realize that we are not in such a favourable position :1s the Colony which was not nu.med by the hon.

i\.f€mber, the one he ha.cl the shipping ment did not consider argue over the small difference between the original one which was put up.

I hope hon.
I hope hon.

Members will W..Lit for a year, because is made quite clear in Your Excellency's :Message that after a year the per­ I think if centage we wnit until might then Government have some ammunition wit.h which to put up a better fi�ht if it is found that Government in mind.

We must get all space we can, and Govern­ it worth while to may be changed.

and the revised proposal should do so.


it with the that we I think I have covered District worried (Mr. Jacob) who was about the amount we the remark made by the hon.

Member for North• Western a little would pay in comparison I suggest other Colonies.

wait for a year, and as the hon.

Member for Berbice has said, we can endeavour improvements time if we find that any other Colony has put it across us.
We must always bear in mind that others are more favourably than we are from situated the point of view of getting shipping space, and we will have to p[l,y a little more for what we want.

of that at the expiratioa River (Mr. Eleazar) to make With regard to the person appointed this Cc,lony on the Ad­ to represent I h:.i.ve Your visory ComrnitteP, to inform the authority Excelle11cy's Council that the appointment to Ms. John Fernandes, offered am glad to say he has accepted the offer.
and I has been occasion has now been made to 'fhis might also be a suitable on which to inform hou.

Members that an appointment the post to be known as the Authority, under the pfan put up.

That post is to be filled for the first six months by Capt.

S. H. True who bas had experience Line, and ba.s also ha,l considerable experience with the Standard posal is that he shou1d be employed the Government months on behalf of the SchooneL· Pool.
Frmt Co. 'l'be pro­ by with the Blue Fanuel :rnd Purt Captain of Barbados as skippeL' for si.x: With regard to the Colony having an Your it in Trinidad, fqr the last three or foqr aaent to represent Excellency There was auother point made by the hon.

Member for North-Western District about salt.

I should like to inform him that we have now sufficient salt in the Colony for nine months, and if the hon.

Member is short of any I believe there is a Member who is prepared to S'.lll him 1,000 bags.
THE PRESIDENT: Before putting· to the bouquets l would like to say that a great deal of thrown at during the debate, t.he question I have listened with :mrnsement Government I may say that they are not undeserved.

Any delay in the formation of this Pool has not been due to this Colony but failure the United �ingdoQ:!, �!ld al�o to c�rta.in to take certain expe"cted action and in --- -- --- ,!1,83, S,'l),p. Estimate, 19 't:3 30 OCT0BElt, 1942, - Ccn·,,nittee 1,584.
· existing something on schooner in "\hose mysterious traffic to the will be, for �alities ,ther places of which we have jheard quite a lot.

They will not be dependent extent that we and Barbados '.and we have to n.llow that.

On the other hand, they may derive certain advantages Pool.

Throughout this Colony has done its utmost to be accommodating things through, !several headaches t�rams.

We are glad to see it appears 10w in concrete form.
from the the negotiations in order to get these and we have had in answering tele­ Motion put, and agreed to.

would like to take We can there­ not on the of Members, THE PRESIDENT: We have one other motion on the agenda which I think the hon.

Member for Berbice River (Mr. Eleazar) at a later opportunity.

fore proceed agenda, with dealing for which I should like to be able to sign special warrants.

sent of Members I think it would be quite convenient to deal with that motion now.
to :i. motion, the consent i�ems of finance with certain to go into Committee With the con­ to this Council the.

P9or recommends Council t.hat $10,000 be provided Law Commissioners discretion meals t<J provide <luring the uext two months.

to be u�ed at their for distribution in money or for distressed persons 'j i <luring It may be necessary to consider the next year, but proposal which has to ofter.
The money matter further this is the immediate Government will be entirely Commissioners, on the understanding distribution $10,000.

at the discretion and will be expended that all costs of by the sum of are covered ol: the That is the most important item.

The other three items are minor matters, -$2,800-an increase vote for the Prirnns.

the last one being the largest in the dietary Mr. LUOKHOO : I take it that Sl0,000 poor throughout confined to the City.
will be distributed among the the ColoDy and not 'l'HE CHAIRMAN: Yes, it will be the Colony.

ditib·ibuted throughout Mr. LUCKHOO: Will there be SUPPLEMENTARY TbH Couucil re�olved aud proceeJed ESTIMATE, 19-!2.

itself into t"o consider Con11nitke a Schedule required of the provision for the year 1942. of Additional Provision to meet expenditure in excess made in the Estimates any additional coRl iu the distribution be no of tht money ?

There should who additional payment to officers with the distributiou.
may be entrusted The entire amount should be dis­ tributed among the people who are really in need of help.

the short Mr. McDAVID (Colonial Treasurer) : A paper has been circulated among Members of the Council showing cer­ tain items of excess expenditnre making · a. total of $13,140.

I regret· notice.

One of the items at least is a very important come up of the great amount of distress suffered town.
It has been represented Government entirely adequate, to meet all that is required, careful in to that the doles are not instances, and after by the very poor in George­ consideration one.

The questiou the Governor in certain has Mr. McDA VID: The Poor Law Commissioners in submittino- their .., recommendation temporary Enquirer to be added to the staff.

That should not cost more than $60.


only asked for a Mr. ELEAZAR: Whenever it rains I have just compli­ it pours, because mented Government and now I must compliment the same session.

compliment ing the poor.

during and I on remember­ them again, twi.

:e It is a record, Govemment � 1,5B!

'i Sup.

Estimate, 194'/J LEGlBU\TIVE COUNCIL, Cha� of Constitution ] ,5861 In those circumstances; to be able always to spot a deservin"" individual.

one or two deserving overlooked.


cient to charge the Commissioners tion.

with dibcrimina I do uot think it is suffi­ cases might be Mr. JACOB : I have listened for years to the hon.

Member's' and the one he has jm,t made; se,·eral speeches, was in similar when I entered strain to that I heard this Legislature.

Mr. ELEAZAR : Consistoncy, Mr. J .\COB : I should like to take ts see.
people, Two cases helpless helpless, districts, and rr.sponsible to say that complain to my notice in Western Administration.

in which a man and a woman, over 60 years and went for aid and driven away by the that , in the outlying this opportunity have reached GovernmPnt, several · a,;sociations a good many of the poor in the districts particularly at all even when clo not get any relief they make application.
were brought Berbice two East Indians, practically were practically officers of the District One of them is entireiy and very sick indeed.

I sent them two for poor relief.

recommendations I mention those two cases particular­ ly because they appear to me to be ex-' tremely hard, and there seems to be definitely something wrong with those responsible for the distribution relief.

Government discrimination.


walk several attended will hike steps to see that Governmeut that these people are aided rather than poor relief.

I urge hindered that deserving turned away.

A Committee recommenrled pensions Barbados.

If such a scheme cannot be put into operation here I think more money should be put on the Poor cases.
Vole for deserving cases should not be sat and of old age the adoption and which obtain in Trinidad from time to time about Some people have to miles and cannot be to for several Complaints have been made to clays.

I trust in getting of poor Mr. ELEAZAR: I rise again ouly very and who is not.

A ago a man, apparently begged alms of a female.

to soy that the Poor Law Cornmission­ ers have a very hara task in deciding who is deserving fortnight deserving, He was refused solent.
&nd a constable arrested he was takeu to the police searched 'Ihe Magidtrate I mention that to show how impossible it is for the Poor Law Commissioners $8 was found on his person.

fined him only $2.50.

him.

When and station I think he assaulted and he became very in­ the person �chedule approved.

The Council resumed, THE PRESIDENT: There is .au at the bottom or:; item under "Mention'' the Schedule have taken notice of.
Have hon .. Members any question to raise on tho adjournment of the Council which no doubt Member,{.

?

CHANGE 01!'

TIIE CONSTI'l'UTION.

begins.


on that on the 18th of ion will not be should be called I was wondering and proceeding it would appear have not got definite Mr. JACOB : I am a little dis- t Your in the announcemen that tho made yestenlay appointed Excellency change of the Constitut f ect this year, or at least bron�{ht into ef before the Annual Session From what I gathered that you yourself information, you ha,·e decided that the Annual Session November.
it would not be ac!visable of State for the Colonies Secretary when the changes »1ould he sent to the Colony.
Thay have been made iu Trinidad and I think we and Jamaica, should have had them akeady, but making allowances that are prevailing stances Kingdom I think it may-be very advisable of to put off the re-assembly the Council until December when it might be possible information Constitution as to the change of the , for the circum­ in the United to get definite whether to ask the 1587 Ultange of Constitution 30 OCTODER, 1942.

Cha11ye of Coristit1ition 1,588 and for that yon in December.
Your Excellency for me to take I should also be I think the pre,ent system its usefulness, has stated must bo lying on the table of the :ire wholly in favour of c,nstitutional House of Lords and lhe House oi d_CVl'lopment.

That being so, I think Commons where it has to lie for 21 ·ou are def.initdy against the prescut sitting days in each Cabe, s > that i ,ystem.

will be impossible 11:1.s outlived action 'uite a long time.
Unfortunately, very reluctant 10 Council is c;lepleted at the moment :::3ession 1nrl l do not know whether I can help, in order to get public will g�t any support ness prosecuted, Members present, but l urg-e that the to think that our present Annual Session should not be called very well fitted until there is a definie statement.

•especially in view of the experience the Session has bnd during the last year.

would be sufficient Council to go into the Estimates start the new year.
going to get a New Order in Europe and I do not see why we should not 1a,·e liO postpone of the Council more than """ bus1 If in December there time for the new ·and I think we are to deal with the .8udgct, and I feel at libert:, from the Elected it in British the Budget of them with­ is called Council Guiana.

excerit is it i�.

··efore, I am not particularl.­ wort.

� if we do not have the ne" Cou.


',L; for the Bu pget Session, for the ten Government Heads who sit around this table, several out opening their mouths for days.

If there is no other business to come before the Council before then I wil proceed to prorogue proclamation, the Bndget Session unless the Council hy and take the opening on November that date is changed.

.

ot 18, The Council wae ailjourncd sine die.

Trm PRESIDENT: I can answer tlint.


I have asked the Secretar y of State again as to the approximate date for the makinf!

of this Order, but I have no inform3tion as yet.

All I can do is guess from my own knowledge, ns advised by the Attorney-General, to the procedure i and as that it in the matter, • "-.. -· •