Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698069875859.pdf (Guyana)
-~~ 20(HJ 2070 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Ueputy :::ipeatcet: Mr. W. J. Raatgever, C.ll.E.

Con:;t'bCit-ted ·1N1der tlw Bril·ish Gwiw1ui (Cou sl'ituti on) ('i.

'e11117orar-y Pro v is-ions ) Order in Cn1mci l, 111.rss) N u 111 ina I eel () f(icials: Mr. W. T. Lord, I.S,O, WEDNESDAY, lGTH MARCH, 1955.

!

'.10111inatecl Unofficfals: Mr. J. I. Ramphal.

The Council met at 2 p .m.

Mr. T. Lee.

Mr. W .

.i\.

Phang, Mr. L. A. Luckhoo, Q.C.


Mr. W. A. Macnie, C.M.G., O.B.E .. J 1 i PRESENT His Honour the Speaker, Sir Eustace Gordon ·woolford, O.B.E., Q.C.

Ex-Ojl{'ic'in Members : The Hon.

the Chief Secretary, Mr. F. D .

Jakeway, O.B.E.

Mr. C. A. Carter.

Mr. E. F. Correia.

Rev.

D. C. J. Bobb.

Mr. H. Rahaman.

Miss Gertie H. Co1Iins.

The Hon.

the Attorney General, l\iirs.

Esther E. Dey .

Mr. F. W. Holder, C.l\'I.G., Q.C.

The Hon.

the Financial Secretary, Mr. W 0.

FraseL·, O.B.E.


Nn'lll'inated Mernber s of ExecnUve Council: The Hon.

Sir Frank McDavid, C.M.G., C.B.E., (Membe:· for Agricul ture, Forests, Lands and Min es) .

The Hon.

P. A. Cummings (Mem ber for Labour, Healt h and Housingi.

The Hon.

W. 0.

R. Kendall (Mem ber for Communications and Works).

The Hon.

G. A. C. Farnum .

O.R.I:!!.

(Member fo!· Local Go,vernment, Social Welfare a11d Co-operative DeYelop ment) .

Dr. H. A. Fraser.
Dr. H. A. Fraser.

Lt. Col. E. J. Haywood, M.B.E., 'f.1).

.

!',fr.

R. B. JaiJal.

Mr. Sugrim Singh, Clerk of the Legislature Mr.

I. Crum Ewini:.

,Assistant Clerk of the Legislature- Mr. E. V. Viapree (acting).

Absent: 'l'he Hon R. B. Gajraj --on leave The Hon.

R. C. Tello -on leave 'fbe .Hon.

G. H. SmeJ1ie.


The S1lealcer read praye:·s, 2071 Inaccurate 16TH MARCH, 1955 Press Reports 2072 The Minutes of the meeting of the Council held on T uesday, 15th March, 1955, as printed and circulated, were t:.ken a~ read and confirmed.

ANNOUNCEMENTS LEA VE TO MR. TELLO Mr. Speaker: I have to announce that the hon.

Member, Mr. 'fello, l1a::1 been granted leave from the 18th to the 21st of March.

PRESBNTATION OF REPORTS AND DOCU MENTS Th e Financial Secretary (lVIr.
I beg to lay on the table: Fraser) : ~ The Report of the Trade Commissioner in the United Kingdom for the British West Indies.

British Guiana and British Honduras for th e period 1st July, 1954 t,.

31st Dec·ember, 1954. f I Sir Frank McDavid (Member for 1, griculture, Fo1:est, Lands and Mines) : I beg to lay on the table: Tlhe Annual Report and Financial Statement of t'ne East Demerara WatH Conservancy Board for the year ended 31st December, 1954.
INACCURATE PRESS REPORT Sir Frank McDavid: Mr. Speaker, before we take the Order of the Day I crhve your permi:ssion to- make a state ment on n point of privilege.

Arisinv.

out of yesterday's debate the·re appears in today's issue of the "Daily Argosy'' a most inaccurate report of some re marks I made yesterchty.
•It is not often tLat r eporter s of that 11ewspaper are guilty of gross inaccuracy, but in thif' case the inaccuracy i,s so serious t hat I feel compelled to take notice and tu endeavour to have it corrected.

On page 4 there appears this: "Sir Frank McDavid, Member for Agri culture, interrupting, asked "Where qoes ,.__;., the speaker get that idea from?

The mechanism of &e Rance Report does no,t say the basis of federation will be ad·ult suffrage.
Nowhei-.., 1n t'he constitution 0f Australia, the pattern of which we have taken, tJ1erc any mention of adult is suffrage'."

Those were t h e words attributed to rne.

In the first place I never referred to Australia at all, and I do not th ink l used the ,vords ·' ad ult suffrage".

What I did was to intervene at a time when Mr. Sugrim S ingh was developing a !Jart icular point.
He was deavouring a nd l a.m sure he will a.gree with me--tn make .1 point, that; if and when a gen eral election is held in British Guifina for seats in a F ederal House of Repre sentatives, that c:1'3ction will take place in a single unitary constituency, and h e argued from that poil~t on, that there was a poss.ibility of a certain Party-• '' sub indeed, he did use the word versive"--gaining the seats and :ill tltereby representinir British Guiana in the ~ederal Parliament.
That was the point Mr. Sugrim S ingh wa·s endeavouring to make, and I intervened to explain that he was not ac curate.

I to:ik the trouble to read from the White Paper containi ng the Federal Plan, a nd I read from page 9- "The Governor m Council or equivalent authority in each Unit to which more than one seat ha:s heen allocated sh ouJc: be empowered after consultation w ith the Unit Legislature by regulation to divide the Unit into as many constituencies a, there are seats to be filled."
That was all l was trying to ex plain; that in the election of a Federal House of Representatives there would ir, British Guiana be a s ub-division in constituencies equivalent to ihe number of seats to which he r eferred.

in tliis Now, the "Dail~ ,·eport Argosy" implies that I said that the Rance Report docs not base the Federal st rutture on adult 1<uffrage.

Of courne, niost peopl~ ,tho h ~yc read the Rance 2073 Inaccurate LEGISLA'rIVE COUNCTI, Press Repo?
'ts 2074 Report know full well that the whole basis of the Federal structure is adult Ruffrage.

No one, and least of all my self, would ()U,HTf l a.bout that, because I myself w,ts a strong advocate of adult suffrage.

l feel embarrassed as a resnlt of this particular parng-r:i ph, ;;ince it makes it appear that I am not in full agreement with adult suffrage, not cmly for Eriti<,h G-uiana but for the whole area.
I believe there is a re.porter of the •· Daily Argosy'' here, and I hope he has taken a oareftiJ note of what I have ,:1icL and will en<leavour to co1-rect the mistake that has been made.

I shall be available to him if he wishes, at the eml oJ this meeti 11g, io explain further what I have said.

Mr. Sugrim Singh: I would like 10 say that what tl1 e Member fol' Agri c11ltu re has said is perfectly true.

That is exactly what he said.

There was no question of Australia, or of any election in Australia.
Sir Frank McDavid: Thank you, Mr. Singh.

Mr. Speaker: I feel :;ony myself t hat this has happened, because any in ae:curacy appearing- in a public newH• p:,pP.1· woultl .be analysed accordingly by I have already '!

)Dinted out the public.

that n ewspnper rer,orters should en deavom· to be very accurate, and quite recently a Member r.omplained to me that the report reproduced in a certain newspape1· wa!< 01ily l1alf of his speech.

I have ceased to make complaints about remarks.


The complaint :s my own I that accept that view.

I have had to suffer in s ilence, but whatever my imperfec tions mi-g-ht be, I think it should be ex pected that my voice would reach people I feel very sitting a few fo~t away.

strong·ly on thi ;; ,;:ibject.

l'eportern cannot hear me.

lt is very important that the pro- ceeltings of this Council should have the benefit of report:" by caJ?able and I am speaking competent reporters.
now of those who comp,1,ise the Official R eport.ers, and n ot only of those who I happen to represent the ne\v.;papers.

know, as a result ,lf very careful en quiry, that the material is not there; it simply is not therE·.

That is the view of those who control the newspapers, and it is a matter which not only I have I think it is going to be mentioned.

very difficult to effect a remedy, but 1 must say that I myself do not like r eports that are not quite accurate.
like that seats theirs complained I think the Members of this Legis lature are entitled to have the best re porting material in the Colony, mid pay I do not know why conditions for it.

should be as they arc: at p,resent, since there is now a much wider scope for repo,·ters, as compia·ed with the c1'ays v,hen reporters attached to the news there was papel'S nothing they conld look forward t-0.
Members will agrefl with me that .it is from that many promi,nent polit'ici!ans hav,e risen ,and reached the position:, they occupy.

There ;.i; room for some of these men in the Law Courts, and I can tell this Council that I tried to investigate how far im µrovecl the channels had become for re cruiting men for the vacancies which I have found have not yet been filled.

that there has been no improvement in the s ituation, and 1 <lo not know wl1at to I would have liked to have a selec do.
tion made in Government's i-nterest, al t hough I do not know what Govern ment's test is, but l know that mine \\·oulcl have been a little more formal mid exacting- than ·.v}:at exists now.

1 am qu•i.te convinr.

:ecl that the materi:il at our Llispos al i;:; not of the best .

We want more and mo r e capable people to snvc as reporters.
that Opportunity has been to mention they are pensionable posts, and I have been told by those who administer the newspapers, that they are wi.Jling ;md rea-1y to pay very hand- taken .. !

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• .. f tl.

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I .

l 2075 l11acc11rate Press Reports 16TH l\!ARCII, 1955 llo;- 1.<1i11g Orrli11ance 207n fMr.

Speaker] ,.

;ome salaries so as to attract the best qualified persons.

I sympathise \vith the hon.


Member (Sir Frank Mc David 1 and I know that there have ueen com· plaints by other l\icmbers, but I arn :,.ware that in the present circumsta,itcs Members are not willi ng to take matters into their own hand,; and do something about the matter.

I am very sorry that t he hon.

Member has been so pained.

The re is no donbt 1.h at r eports of the ln t:his Council should he proceeding·~ n.tcurate and extensive.
As · far as rnembers of the Press are concerned, facility they are given in crder carry out to I am not blaming any their duties.

body particulal"ly, hut the matter re ferred to is an important one, and I do not know exactly hew this mistake has occurred.

I do not wi,sh to blame any particular reporter, b ut I know most of these young men a.nd am aware of the nature of the clif!kulties they have to face.
I am confident that most of the ,experience are as cliffir.ulties s ociated with the question of training, and the ability to appreciate matters discussed here.

,~very to t h e y nble be I have already g iven a ruling on tlJi.s question· of the coverage given by reporters to debates in this Counc,il their names, time spent and so on-and I do not know if any Member, ·wishes that we sho uld g·0 beyond that ruling.

I could not put the matter any clearer and how the situatioli can be corrected I do not know.
I have already spoken aho ut the inaccuracy of newspa1per re ports, an d if the nev,spapers will not take any notice of it, well something will have to be d,me.

Thi;; much I would say: The first time I called attention to the matter the 1Jersons responsible for Mr. Speaker.

the publication of the "Guiana Graphic" suggested that some form of punish ment should fall on m y head ff I pre vented the Press from getting informa- t;on that they should have.
Members will r emember that I · djd :riot com- with in tht!

Press.

phdn of any inacri:,racy.

All that I said -- what I wanted to compla-in about-was tha l the repol'tern were !

"e.,;ponsible for the inacc-unH:y ur othcnvisc of speeches ,\'hen I wa:; pub li,;hccl i' pcaki11g l 1r.i s Jl(1t 1·hillkiug uJ tile Edi Lor ur 1.he rcpurie l' ul' a t1y particular news p:1per.

The Legi.,law rc, howeve r, has control of the reporters who serve here There is a spec;al from time to time.
rule on that subjed:, and vve can re fuse to admit to nny meeting reporter;,.

who are pe rs i;,.tent offenders, or othel' I · think the p1·0 wise table reforms.

prieto1·.~ of t he var ious new~pape1·~: should know that, but reporters could be dealt with apart from that.

As ,vhy ~ n I have said, they have my sympathy when it comes to acoustic;,, and cerb1in other things.

but I do not think the m:>jority i1ave had 8uffiC'icnt training for a job like that.
Of course, ,ill these newspaner.~ w ill only get 1,:hatever tl1ey a,·e pr<::pared to pay for.

I do not know this Colony certain ladies-I mean those who have shou1d shy away from the ability - I have spoker positions th.i t. over and over about it, but those who 2.re capable will not come forwa!'rl.

I know ah,o that abroad, and in the West Indies, t here a re some very com petent reporters.

There are also some very eligible pt!ople who are not very :rnx1ous, some of them, to leave their jobs.
Some of them attend civil cere monies and so on, but I think they can be found.

like I shall di1·ed the Clerk to call the Rttention of th e proprietors and thn Fditor of t!ie ·· [)aily Argosy" to this erroneous column.

Sir Frank McDavicl: Thank yon, CONTINUANCE OJ-' F.'\HT JX OF HOUSING ORDlNANCE Mr. Speaker : Before proceeding th~ Order pf ihe Day, 'I should - 1 ~1 I '207;7 Housing Onl'inance LEGISLAtivE d-otJNCIL Br.

Caribbean Feclerat'ion 2078 s tate that there is an item on the Orde1 Paper.
Does the hon.

Member wish to move hi s rno tioJt?

He can move the su:;pen:;ion of the Standing Orders.

Mr. Cummings (Member for La bour, Health and Housing) ·: I know that.

I did not like !o impinge on such an important debat() which is in pro gre:ss, but it is takii1g such a long time.

Mr. Speaker: I suggest that you move the :suspen:;ion of the Standing Orders in orde1· t o ci eal with it now.

Mr. Cummings : Very well, Sir, I w ill do that now.
I .iJe.1!.· to m ove the sns pension of the S tanding Orders in order l may proceerl with the moti0n that in my name on the Order st anding P,1 per.

Sir l<'rank McDavid: I beg to st'cnml t he motion.

Que:;Lion put, and agreed to.

Relevant Standing Order suspended.

Mr. Cummings: t o move the fol lowing moti-un s t.anding in my n ume on the O;·der .Pa per as item 12- I be g "Whereas b y Resolution No.
Ill of ihe the 25th Legislative Coun cil passed on, ciay of March, 1954, Part IX ·o f the Housing OrdinanC"e, 1946 (No.

2,1 of 1946) was con tinued in force u p to the 31st day of March, 1955; ''And whereas it is c~.csirable that the said part of the Ordin~nce shall continue in force for a furthe r r,er iod; "Now, therefore, be it resolved that Par t IX of the Hous:n~ Ordinance, 1946 (No.

24 of 1946), shall continue in forc e for a.

.fu rther p eriod of c>ne year from the lot of April, 195!> '' P ar !
; IX of the lfou ::;ing- Orclin:-iuc0 : No.

2d o l' l!l !G) rleal,: w ith the ;;;peedy r e med.ving- of i"n ;:ome area s, a nd '.vit11 over-cro wd ing in lt is therein set out dwelling-ho use".

that this part of the Ordinance shall rnntinue in forc;e for a period of fiw ins an:~a ry conditions years from the day of commencement of t he Ordinance, and shall expire un t ime by le:,s extended from time to thi;:; Legislative Council.
r esolution of This Council has b een continuing this Ordinance from t ime to time by resolu tion.

The time has now come when the Ordinance expires , a:, can be seen from th8 mot ion, unless this Counci,l passes I do a resoluti on for it,s continuance.

not t hink I need dilate on t he necessity for this motion, but briefly to state -that the provisions of that part of the Ordinance, are to assist us with speedy slum clearance, and in particular to ernp :;wer us to ob tain Demolition Orders .
The conditions that necessi t;1ted the continuanc;e of the Ordinance fr om time to time stiill exist, and _ con tleq uently I move that t his Council re ~olve the continualio1; of t his legis lation.

Sir Frank McDavid: I beg to :.

;econd t he motion.

Que:;tion put, and agreed to.

Motion adopted.

!

TE.MS DEFERRED The Attorney General: I ask leave t o defer c:onsiderntion of t he Bill stand· ing in my na,me.

l\Tr.
l\Tr.

Speaker : The Member for A g l'ic11 lture and the Me mber for Local Government alt;o d es ire that cons iclen1- tic11 of the Bills they ;1re co11cernecl with i:;huuld be postponed.

Wit h t he consent to 5 will be items 1 of Members, <.!eferred.

Items 1 to 5 deferred.

ORDER OF THE DAY British Caribbean Federation Co1111 r il d e b:1te on the followin g motion by the r esumed Lhen the Rev.
Mr. Bobb: "'111.at ~tcps whi~h are being this Council, havin~ noted Lh, taken by other :;;079 Motion-'!3ritis/i 16TH MARCH, 1955 Ca-ribhean Federation 2080 II' Caribbean Governments and by Her Majesty's Government towards the creation of a British Cm·ibbean F ederation, and the statement of the Secretary of State for the Colonies in Parliament to the effect that the constit utional inslrnments will provide that British Guiana and other territories which m ight care to do so wHI be quite free to join the Fedcralion, is of the opinion that Brit.sh Guiana should join the Fede rafrm, and that the ques tion of therein should be re-examined.
this country's participation This Council fu r ther prays His Excel lency t!he Governor to take su ch steps as he m ay deem fit to lwep British Guiana in close touch with the action now proceed ing t owar ds the setting up of the Federa tion, and to ascertain the state of public opinion in this country towards parlici pation in t!he Federation."

i\lr.

Speaker: The hon.

Member, Mr. Sugrim Sing h!

You had intimated to us t hat you have a great deal more tc• say.
Mr. Sugrim Singh: Yes, Your Honour, more in the sense of quite a frw facts left to be ::-aid, but less on the question of time.

Mr. S peaker : Multu111 in pa,·ou !

Mr. S ugrim Singh : Yes, Yo ur Honour 's Latin has not deserted you .

.Mr.

Speaker : No, not altogethet·.

is Mr. Su grim Sit1gh : Yes te rday td'terno :m when Lhi;:; debate was tem poraril y ent1ed , r w:w developing the point based on Dicey, that the ultimate ,11m of all F,ederation to bring about what can be described as one nation.
I was crying to show marked and patent differences in the l'espective units of th is prnr,n;;ccl Federation, and I was specifically refcni:11g to a national event in the .. Ln nd of the Humming Bird" called "C,J.>:nival", when the Gov e;·nment spokesmeli rn one voice asked I am '' Why should it be removed?"

very glad for th:.lt answer.


The point I wish to make is that certain things which have got a .religious background and which are deep-rooted seem to take a very long t ime Lefore they can be I am not prepared to say E:rndicaLed.

they will never be eradicated, but the point· I want to make is that no Legislature, Federal or autonomous, can bring about the desired res ult or th11 desire of the Federal Government tl• shut clown tende11eie:; tha L are marke-.1 aml deep-rooted.
leave that point I ther e because it seems to have a socio It is my view that logical bac:kground.

time and time alone can bring about t hat e<1uil ibrium which is desired.

I move 011 to the 4uestion of exist ing closer c1ssociatiun bet ween British Guiana and the West Ind ies.

There is 110 doubt that there are several instances very well known to the hon.

Members of this Co unc:il.

I would be carrying coal to Newcastle to enumerate them, and t ime is agai nst me.

What I want to e:-tablish is.


that it is felt in certain quarters t hat if Brit ish Guiana decides not to participate in this proposed Fed eration it wou ld either put an end to :my clo»c1· assoc iation 0 1· affect, to a s ub stantial deg ;·ee, the present doser as socia t ion wh ich e>-.,sts between British I shar e Guiana and t he ,~-est Indies.

Lhe oppo:;itc view.
Lhe oppo:;itc view.

I sa,y that whether or not th ere is Federation, the princi ple of closer a:-;sociation is i,nevitable, and no Fcdernl Governm,rnt can put an end th;, 1 to t he Islanrls woul.

:l say: "Since you have not joined the Federati-on, we a r e going to put some sanctions on you.

We are not goiJ1 g to have your rice, for i11- stance.''

iL.

Some people may feel the llfanager of 'That will never happen.
Only a week ago the Rice Marketing Boa,·cl announced the discovery of new markets for our r ice.

We d~ not want to encourage it, but our rice industry w,_1uld not suffer by :i.n.y 1<1.1ch thre:it.

We have a rice officia.l sitting on my right in this Chamber.

(M1·.

Jailal).

I hope he will say some- 2081 Motion- Btitish L M CSLA'r1VE COUNCIL Caribbean F'edemtion 2082 thing about this.

There will be pastures;-.

-,.


the rural areas has a right to meet, new i~ Marti.niquc and Guadeloupe fo/~~i discuss anti pass a resolution saying our nee.

Those islands, 1 have heard" k.

i!

'.at 1!011.

Members are patently pro someone s,1y, will t ake 12,000 bags of fi l<'ederationi::;ts.

our r ice.

Mr. Speake~: But you said '·every tt~ ~:rJ Sir Frank McDavid: Bad rice qj other burial society."
Mr. Sugrim Singh: Those are ,, 0 11 see to Venezuela, but I Mr. Sugrim Singh : Some of these places that will take our rice.

I was goi 110 t statements are deliberately intended to refer to keep Gover111n.:!ni.

Members awake.

leav:· this Report on Customs Union t hat sl.ratcg-ically '.l!onc.
My poin t is 1.hat ln Lil is r ice industr y of ours will not suffer m clearly the Caribbean you Lh'.tt Commerce is rnterested in import this proposed by our not entcrmg ation and exp_ortation, co~par ison of ~edention, but we l:annot get away q~ota~ a nd tariff~.

Federat10n w ill pro 1rom clo:-;ci- assodatian.

vV c have ct is- -v;de free t r ade within the region.

Then, ting uished West Indi,ins in om Public h; no que~tion of having Service in th is Culcny.
Sim ilar ly WP to make r epresentations and (;hecking up r ecords the West in have Guianese serving- oi IV hat the import.

:; and exports wer e all the 1 ime.

Indies.

This will go over a number of years.

Commercial the fou r of lhc present A t peo~le are interested in profits, but our .I ucl ges of nui· 8npreme Court are busmess in this Legislature is the wel the At - Wesl I ndian:-;, and fare of the e?tire C0l.ony.
That _is the tornc,v General who has that post with dign i ty and ciecorum for many impor tant t hmg.

yea rs.

That state of affair s will go on, an d no F ede ral Government or Law w ill ~top t hat.

The point I wish to make ls that t here can be no fear as regards this Federation.

1 ou~· not entering said yesterday, :mcl T do not w is·h t o repeat i L, t hat H er Majesty's Govern· menL was quoted as saying t h at we ~voulc_l not suffer by not participating rn th is Federation.

there.
there.

China eheap filled ti me so is is its is cheap.

i n I move on.

A very important !octil firm, Bookers-according to the state m ent of one of officials the wants Federation.

We know in Japan .

conditions whi ch obtain is Labou r the most densely populated count r y in the world.

China and India have two thirds of the wor ld's population, and so those co untries.
Jabo ur Should we ha ve Jamaicans, and possiblj Barbadians, flocking into this country, as would happen to It takes only a Join th is F ederation ?

schoolboy to see that we would have an excess of labou r on all t he s ugar es tates of t h i ~ country.

Already t here is un employment in t his coun t r y, and t he event of a strike those w lio ;·cprf)se11t big interests would be able to g-ct ot11er veople to wo-rk.
My poin t is that this Cour,cil must not th in1, of a particular bu:-;iness concern but of the welfare of the Colon y as a whole.

H is not that I would not like to see Capital and t he Chamber of Commerce if we consent in ~ move on to th is point: Who in this Colony and out.lidc of this Colony for Federation, and ar c cl~uno11ring they dc,inp: why ar e so ?

Chambe1 th eir w isdom have in of Commerce th ey want F ederation.
that dechu·ec\ They have eve ry r ig1,t to say so, just the same as every other burial society in this Colony l1as t he r ight to ::;ay so Mr. Ramphal: "Every other "?

Mr. S ugrim Sing h : That statement intended to was deliber ate.

\Vhat I con vey was t hat every small society in 2-083 Mot-ion-British 16TH M:ARCH, 1955 C11t1ibbean Pederatio·1i 2084 [Mr. Sugrim Singh] 'l'o use the words doing good business.

of Julius Caesar, it is not t hat I love Caesar less, but that I love British Gui nna more.
Let me move on to tlte Civil Service.

Under the proposed Federation we are to have two distinct Civil Services--a Federal Civil Servke and our local Civil I am glad that the Pres ident Service.

of our Civil Servic,; Association is a Member of this Council.

:Mr. Ramphal: Ex-President.

I too want Mr. Sugrim Singh: 1 am very glad to be corrected.

The ex-President.

of the Civil 8 ervice Association is still a Member of this Council.
How often have we not heard J1im, with all the vehemence at his command, and in his r ich sonorous voice, exclaim in this Council : "We ,vant a Guiani,sation of the Civil Service" 1 He is not s ingular in that respect; it.

We ,vant to see our own people, wherever possible, occupyi ng- high positions in ou1 Civil Service.

It i:; a very desirable thing, but how t he principle of is Guianisation of uur Civil Service going to be reconciled with t he Federal Civil Service?
We are going to have top, ranking West Indians being dumped down on us aga in in this Colony.

Where i B the idea of Guianisation going to take us?

If there is to be a Federai talk of Civil Ser vice is Guia nisation of cur Civil Service.

I hold in my hand a eopy of the widely cir culated " Guiana Diary" for the period F ebruary 22 to ~!5, issued hy the Gov ernment Information Service,;.
Under ··C:o\·e1·nmenl's Policy of the heading Gui:rnis ing- Ci.vii Service" it stat e:;: idle to it '"'Eo ensure that qual ified Guianes~ for appointment become available tc; senior posts in the Public Service, it has the British Guiana been the policy t1f to Government fo:- a n umber of years, provide training scholarships and courses."
fac,Hities by way oi 1n another pa ragr aph it says : "For W55, the Legislative Council 'has voted $115,000 which will enable 13 scholarships to be offered for university courses leading to degrees in Engineering, Geology, Forestry, Science and Mathe matics, and 4 scholarships for primary school teachers to take University Institute Certificate cour3es.

A further $20.000 h a~ been rprovided lo allow officers to take approved courses overseas."

That is an official report by t his Government.


A t t he moment we cannot fi ll certain posts in the Civil Service, but we are well on the way t o training our OWH people to fi ll them.

My point is: what category of experts a re we going t o need that we have to join the proposed Federation in order to get them?
v,.r e a re well on the way to trained and having our own people qualified fo r posts i n every conceivable Department, so as to avoid the awkward position uf havi ng to adver tise fo·r ex pe1'Ls to come l1el'e on contract and shake t l1 e d ust of thi:s Colony off th eir lhey h av'= -completed foet a [te i- t heir contract,;.

In view of a ll this, i t is ju:, tifiable that th is Cdony s hould throw all t hi s as ide and jump into a West Ir,dian Federation?
1 am anxio us ai1cl eager Lo hear from th e protagonists of F ederation what this Colony of our s hm; to gain from Federation wi th t he West Indies.

I want to hear €eono mic facts, cold logic ar.cl reasoning.

l t is all well and good to say that some eminent authority tl1inks i t has somdhing to g-ain, but there aL·c also antho•rities who think oth en vi:se.
E ven a former Governor of this Colcrn ,v, anJ a very a,ble Adminis tn1tor, has told n,i Urnt 1hi~ Colony should not ,ini1i n West Indian Federa~ If we , ive hal'e t 1rn·,; on record.

Uon .

hwc nothing to gain but all to lose I ask the s imple question: ,vl1 y should we join this Federation and surrender ~ml put an end to our Development 2085 M otion----B ,-if.ts Ii LEGJS!

.ATiVJ!

; COUNClL (;uribi.Jewn Pederat-Lon 2086 ...---,.~~ - Plan?
The finances of the small islands have reached the major road stop; they ,\l'e unable to balance their budgets out uf tl, eir resou r.::es.

We cannot blame I have them for desiring Federation.

cited the authority of Professor Wheare, that in a Federation it is the duty of the stronge1· units s upport and guarantee the natio,rnl income of the weaker un its.
to Th is propo3ecl Federation of the West Indies is an experiment in con ditions which are completely differ u ,t from those of the oilier F ederations in the Bl'itish Commonwealth, and [ suggest ca ution.

I have faith in this I was IJor·H here and I firmly Colony.

believe that this conntry of o urs is on the way to impmvernent, and to the ultimate destination we all hope to arrive at some day.
We have :rnffered a set-back, b ut is there any country iu the world, or eve n in the British Com monwealth of Nation:;, that has not had upsets in its political evolut,ion '!

This Colony i.s · llut going to rem,1in i11 t he qua._gmire and ue looked uµon as a coun try infested with Communists.

Th•; time is c:oming- wl1cn reason will de tb·one sentiment, a111I when those sul.• versive people will be removed f.rom tl1<~ political scene.
'rhere will then emerge a country with expe1·i~nce, able to take its proper place in the world.

I have tried my best to put as rngently and as logically as I can t he case for the opposition as I see it.

I bave endeavoured to support the points I have made by reference to accepted authorit.i.es and reports.

I have :i n open m ind on this most difficult subject.

Let m, pool om· knowledr~e and ex_pel'ience i11_ deciding thi,s c1uestinn.
Tt js n ot propel' for us 1 n appronch the subjed of Federn.t.ion with preconceived idea,:;, nnd throw in our lot with the mover of the motion becau~e we know that Ilerhaps the Colonial Off.ice or the Ad ministration wants British Guiana to join the Fedc1·ation.

Although the inter- vem,iou of the hu11.

Lh(: Chief Secretary, the spokes man of the Government, to make a statcmen~ e,uly in the debate ir significant, I have Lo t reat this motion as that of a p1·ivate Member of this Council.
The moti0n irself bristles with .lt is difficu!

I ies and ,·ontrnrlictions.

badly worded.

- can 1 have made i t dear that while this a creature of it everything the Colony, Interim Government - statue do considers necessary for there bP.

ing no !imi:at_ion of its func the Jaw, tions under i:t should not assume the re~po:J'4ibility to lea d thi s Colony i11tu FederaLion witlt the vVest I gave ,is my reason the fact Indies.
that a decision rnw;t come from the people uy way of universal adult suf frage or plebisc:ite.

1 quoted the views o:f Lord [lalifax, P xo rt:ssor K. C. Wheare, and even Lord Lloyd.

'!
'!

[ gave my view that if economi (: ;;tabiJity and financial solvency a l'e the lH'l'.essar y foundations of pol it ical indepe1tde11ce, as referred to i11 paragl'apll 1~ of the Rance Repol't, \\"il l quicker attain lliell 1.!it•nt 011 ;c,:; 011·n, ratl,er Lhan joining a l<'edcrat.io11 in whh:h it wi,11 have to share the fin,111cial burdens of other units of the Feder,, tion.
r to uur naturnl resot1n;e,:;, o ur enormous develop ment schemes, our rice industry, our bauxite industry, our potential man gane,;e, c·olumbite and tantalite indus tries, our prospects of oil being found, and our financial reserve.
this Colony refened I have t ried to show thi:s Council that every effort :s being made to bring us into t liis Federation because (1 ) our lnnd sp:u: e i.s n ecessary for tl1e excess ]}OJ)lliat ion of lli·: [,-;l;,tl(l::;, and (2) we will proviclC' a lucrative market for t heir J ~;lll'C my v iew that Feder a produl'.!~.

l !on will not iiring about one nation, not' will laws, but it ~hould be left to time, and the opern1.i011 of soc..:iological I said that I felt that the prin<'iples.
people who want Ft::denttion are moti vated by personal 1:ca::;on::; cak:ulated Lo 2087 Motion-British i61'H MARCH, 1955 Caribbean Pederation 208b l 1· LlVIr.

Sugrim SmghJ benefit a particular section or category of people, and that we must thi'nk of t he entire Colony.

I referred to the mover's si-lence on tlLe most important point: what will this Colony get from Federation?
To my mind, this proposed Federation is a great expeximent, but one in which this Col ony should not participate, as it would run the risk 0£ being left in the well.

1 am of the view that we should find lucrative employment fur the many un- it 8mployed person5 here, and wou ld be unfaj.r to flood this l:ou.ntry with unemployed people from the West Indies to lower our i:;ta ndards of living, rn1t!

tlc::;t r uy our peasar,try.


In the words of Oliver Goldsmith- that "A p,~asantry once de"lroyed can never he supplied."

There can be no Federation without freedom of trade and freedom of move ment within Immigration the area.

Imm the We::;t Indian l::;Jands would swamp us out and affect the small in dustries now co.ming up.

I have fa itlt iu this Colony of ours.


Here, Sir, let me quote the words of Adam Lindsay Gordoii - "Question not but live and labour Till your goal be won, Helping every feeble neighbour, Seeking keep from none; Li.fe is mostly froth.

,md bubble.

Two things stand like stone: Kindness in another's trouble.

· Courage in your own."

\\·e must have courage in our own.

We are "·illin.rr to help the sma:11 Islands b:v clrn,er a,;sociation, but not political Federation.
All through my speech -I have made that clear.

British Gui a na is bound to win h er respected place in th e Commonwealth.

Her political statu;:; whose set-back was u.ndoubtedl.v regrettable, will soon be restored.

Politic:::;!

ideologies and fan into decadence, aticisms will cfrift clearing the w:iy for sober thinking ::iubversive thinking will be eraclicaten from our hituerto peaceful country, Destructive anu theiT disciples and satellites will find no audience in the future .
"God moves in a mysterious way, His wonders to perform" --Jwilh due respect to, the hon.

mover, the Rev.

Mr. Bobb.

bant ams politil:al From t his humiliated state in which this Colony find,; nerseif in the eye$ of the world, she ,,·ill rise to be-and l hope I am not resorting to h yper!Jole w hat she is expected to be, and that is.

the South Arneri can in H e1 lVIajei;t_v's Crown.


j ewel Passing through this ::;Lage of our political evolution we were fortunate lo have t he timely action of ihe Governor, Sir A lfred Savage, or we would hava been crippled for many years to come.

He is a Goel-send, and I say that in all seriousness.

I trust he will remain with us to lead us to a restoration of our politil'a!
equilibrium I have faith I must take ieave of the Counl:il as J now do, hoping that my con I ribution wiJl this important sub· assist in clecicl im;- in my country.

ject.

"Eng-lanci, wit h all t hy faults, I .love thy thee."

British Guiana, with all faults I still, as thy Eon, love thee.

I shall not desert thee in thine hom: 0f need.

Even if 13,·itish Gu ia na is a 1e!


'ilahle hell, I wvuld, like John Milton, cling tenaciously to her, and as k all tru e Guianese to have it enshrined in their hearts that "It is better to reign jn heli Than to serve in heaven ."

Sir Frank J\kDavid : (Member fm Agriculture, Forests, Lands and Mines): Mr. Speaker, in .,;penking to this motion I shall enrleavot1r to 11re:;ent and develop m~, a rguments in a logical sequence and strncture.
I ,:;hall ::i.l,:;o try to be a.s con cise as the complexity of the subject will allow.

I shall t.ry t o avoid repeti iVisdom does not tious argument .

necessar.iiy lie in a multiplicity of words.

2089 Motion-British LEGISLATlVE CoUNClL Caribbean Federaiion 2090 While, lVIr.
Speake1·, I agree with what .vou have j ust ::;aid, t hat having regar d to the importance of t his matter it is undesirable to limit the full freedom o.f think we should be car<e debate, I ful not to infriHge i he propriehes of ou1· legislative procedure, or to abuse them.

But if every Member were to address this Council at the inordinate iength of the last speaker, this debate would not conclud,~ for one month.
the During the dd1ate on last Budget l gave an indication of my pe1· wnal views on this question of the par t1cipation of British Guiana in the pro posed British C,u·Jibean Federation.

~aid then, and l say again with all the emphasis that I can command, that it time for British Guiana to have i::; 11econd t houghts on this ma.tter.

I be lieve that this i,;sue transcends in im portance any of the issues w ith which this country is faced r.t t lte present time.
I believe, moreover, that it is far more important and more significant to the foturc welfare of the people of this country tlian even the solution of the vexatious internal political problems and t he difficulties with whicl1 we have been beset sin<:e April, 1953.

Com;e G.L1ently, I welcome the motion which has been introduced and so ably argued by the Rev.

lVIr.
lVIr.

Bobb, and I am indeed very glad to lie in a i;o::-iiion tu support the motion, nol only as a lVIember of the Government which is prepared to accept it, but also beL:ause of my own firm per :-;onal conviction.

I have always been an ardent ::;up porter of complet~ regional un ity be tween the British Caribbean territories, incl udin g t he mainland territories of Erifo;h Gu iana and British Hond uras.
Duri ng my official c&reer as a p,ublic officer, wh ich nime to an end in 1953, I endeavoured to promote the growth oi' t'his idea by every means open to me.

I wa,s fortunate to go to Jamaica to attend the Montego Bay Conference in I '· I your company, Mr. Speaker, as an iirl viser, and l took pr,rt in t he Committee work which wen;; on behind the scenes, and whi,ch led Lo two of the important results of that Conforence.
I may al::;o say without immodesty, because it lJ.as been mentioned here before, that I played a prominent part in establishing th~ unified currency of rile Eastern Group of the British Caribbean territories, the notes of which still hear my signature as the inaugural Chairman of t lte Bo;,r d of Commissioners, and I am very glad that at lo11g last my personal efforts to bring Jamaica into the fold of this uni fied currency system is achieving re sults.
I make these somewhat pen,onal to explaining reflections as a prelude why I said just uow tl,at l was very glad to be to s upport this motion.

in a position When Dr. K id10lson's motion .vas introduced into the Legislative Council in November, 1951, I, together wish m y co!leaguc, ~\1r.

HP!der, the Attorney General, was in England on leave of ab sence.

I returned l:o Ifritish Guiana just in time to be present in this Chamber during the closing stages of that debate.
I ·,•ras e;i;tremely disgusted, disappointed and chagrined to find that it had been agreed that the three Official Members, of whom I was then une, should not participate in that debate and should not vote, thereby abrog::iting their constitn tional rights.

At the same t ime the nominated unofficial Members exe1·cised the full weight of their considerable in fluence, dominated t-he debate, and play in the voting ed a most decisive roie result.
A great deal of capital has been made out of the re,:ult of that debate on Dr. Nicholson's mdion in 1951 which ended in January, 1 %2, but I wondet how many people have taken tl1e trouble tu analyse tlie reault and ascertain what really happened .

1 vropose to do so now.

DL Nichoh;on's motion was a very simple one.


It read : "That, thls Council accepts in principle the British the proposed Federation of 2091 Molion-Britis.Jt 16TH l\i!A~CH, iH55 Carib/Jean F'ederation 2092 i' I LSir Frank McDavi,n Caribbean Colonies and agrees to consider in a Committee of all the unofficial Mem b2rs of the Council the recommendations in the Closer Association Report."

I am empha;:;ising some of t ho~ e in prin words-"the Council accepts ciple."
Th ere were two amendments to that motion but imly one of them l ~.m concerned with at the moment.

They were put to the vote after the substa1, tive motion.

After the debate Dr. Nicholson's s ubs tant ive motion was pnt and, on a divisiou, th(~ result was 4 for, 15 against.

Tha fou r Members who voted ·· For" were ali elected Members.

'.Ph·ey were Messrs. John Ca·rter, Kendall, Dr. Gonsalves and Dr. Nicholson.
The 15 Member:=; wh,) vot.t-od ·· Against" com prised eight elected Members, who were Messrs. Phanp:, Peters, Fernandes, Debidin, Coghlan, Let::;, Dr. Jagan and Dr. Singh.

The remaining seven wl10 voted "Ag,ainst" wer e all nominated Un official Members.

· 1 am going to name them too.

,They were Mesr-n·s.

Macni e, Lnckhou, Srnellie, Farnum, Thompson, Rolh and n.aatg-ev,•1·.
The result again is eig-l1t elect.ed Membe1·::; a11d seven llomi na1.e<l Unofficial ( l E' against, and four eiectecl Mem..bers for the motion.

'lVIembers Now I w ill come t.o m y point.

The second of the two amendments which were put to a division read in t his wise.

: "That this Cotmcil accepts in principle Federation of the British Caribbean Col onies with Dominion status."

·,.,l'l"lHIIHles, That amendm.


:!11;; was put and it was lost, but this is what happened : There voted for the a mendment eight ele<:ted l\lf<imber;;, ,i nd they were Mess r,-; Carter.

Ken<lnll, I ,ee, Dr. Jng·::-111, Ur.

Co11salves.

Ill·.

Ni1·l111l_sl)n ancl ~1 mendrncnt Dr. Singh.

Against ,,;en' four ,:,!even 1VIeml1ers, of 11·lium were elected Mem.Lers, and the sam e :;;even Nominated Ylembers .

The fo .. 1r elected Members 'V\)re Messn;.

Phang, l'ders, lJel.J idin .,ml Coghlan.


Ill e it to in the this: favour and rider att,.,ched ·was quite obvious The deduct.ion which must· be made from thos·e votes is that i.s su far as the µrinciple of British Guiana·s participation in · a British Caribbean Federation was concerned, and on that princ:iple alone, tht!
division of opinion elecct:el Members was between four against, eight t hat because Messrs. Fernandes, Lee, Dr. Jagan and Dr. Singh wanted Federation but wanted ar a it an as surance of Dominion status at onc:c. Consequently, I go back to my point th-at on the p1·incipl0.

of Brit ish Guiana's in a British Caribbean p,,rtic-ipation Federation, the on <l1vision of opinion betw~,er.

the elected favour and :Members was e ight f,Jur against.
Also, that the rlecisi vc the nominated factor against were In those circ:um Unofficial Members.

,;tnnces, Mr. Speaker, I a:sk : 11/hat j us tification has there been for t he decla1:, t ion which has been so widely pub licised.

that t he eieclerl Members of Dritislt Guiana were opposed , and lle termined l:v oppo;;etl lo the principles of J,arlicipalion They were not.

What justification is there for the statement tl,at Lhe people of British Guiana were opposed to Fel: eration '?
They were not, because their opin ions had no~ actually been Rsci~1· tained.

Ft:dcration '!

occasion t h at in i11 On that poi11 t 1 want the Co uncil tu bear with me ju~t a little I.Jit while l rn;ike some analysis of the opinions <Jf the four eleded Memuers who were op posed altogether to t110 principle of Fed eration.

They were first our good friend, Mr. Phang, who is h ere now.
I want to sa.v at <-11rc tli.at l fully a11- preciate and sympathi;-;e w it h the view~, \\·hich hr ,,xpre"srd 011 t hat occasion.

T•/f1·.

1>1Jan g waf-: 'h011 11,e reprrscmtative It is hi ~ or I.lie North Wc•~.t Dis lric·t.

'"beloved Provinee.''

and he argued ihat the NoLth West District had been, anrl still was, a neglected area of thi, country; that its trade with Vcne:1,Uela, whic:h had tiprt111.

:.\° up in the early years, .

1 I ·1 20CJ3 Motinn-Hritish LF.GIST.ATlVE COUNCIL Ca.ribnea.r,.
Peri.P-rn.tion 2094 ~ad declined, an'.!

he aJ'g-uecl that he pl'e fened t he p1·esem s tate r ather than r isk t h r future :,ndr: I' C;iribuean Fctl - e r al i<.i11 fo r t he.· N11rtil West Uis tl' ict.

111 s lrn rt.

lie prdc1·1"'•d Lhc cvilf; he km·"· ot in :---0 r;i1· ,1,; tha t ·,ya,; c<1llt'L' l'111°d.

Lo t!i ,isc h e did 11 0L.

l do 110L a.grec with !Jim, but.

an.vwa.v it wa,; a fair position to take up.


Mr. Peter,; is a man whom1 I re s pect, but on thnt occasion he intr odu ced a most curio us :n·gnment.

Tt ;:;eems to me that he was suffering· from ;:;everr ir.feriori t~, complex in so far as the We.c;t Indi es were c-0ncernecl.

He co inec1 r~ re-markab le phrase ,, s t he theme of his ~peech.

He used it at the beg-inning nnd the end--'•Affiliation- Yes : Ass imilat ion-N o ... H e beg-an t hat 1.\·:1:v and enrl e<l that WI!

_,·.
_,·.

r:.ncl it seems t o me that the :V[ r. Pei,•rs was visual isin g \Vest Indi es a,; :1 sort of fierce dragon to assimilate and which was going tlevour us, British (;ufan ese.

So T founcl '.J!s ideas quite irrecoilcilah]P. a.-: I hesitate Lo :::peak about Mr. D ebicl in ; he is a n honou1·ed g-t1 est in the Cou nci l today, ,inrl it wou ld not b e fair to him to 1m1ke men t ion of what he said <-ri t ic,1.ll.v, a11 he is not n o,\·, un fortuna tely, in a position to answer back.
All 1 will say is that his s peech Dppearecl to fo llow the traditional line;:; which we gathcrPd from Mr. S11gl'im S ingh',; contribution.

'a;..,:in' F ederat ion.

to federated Lastl.v, (;;ipL\in Cog-hlan.

He is an 'agin' the t raditionally I rishman and If Grwernment and the Ireland had been tlifat cou n try would Un ited Kingdom have been m t1 cli 1)etter off econom ically today, but Eire g radually a nd co urage- ( t o use the hon.
Member, Mr. 0usly Sug r im Sing-h'c, v:orc1s) stood out and suffered as a. rcs,tlt.

That was not.

howeve1·, ·what Cap t .

Coghlan basoo his objection on.

H e c1u ite frankly said : "I am not taking the responsibility t o decide .

I h ave not approached m y elect- orate, and until I dr,, and until I get some guidan ce from them I will not vote in iav,our of this mot ion."

if tu So t hat I w:illll'<I lay on 111 ucb h .


:avicr 1 co uld tld s argumc11L four elecled eai--il,v say Llrn~ of 1hc l\'fcmbcrs who lhe principle 1J[Ji_)OSnl of F'cderntion one had an a-pen mind, thr ee.

Let rn that there ·were only us ,mot her way.

S up posi ng the Official Members hacl insi sted, as they should have done, in exer cis ing t heir constitutional right8, the division of opinion on the snbjeet of F ederat ion woald have been 11-11.

That was no deaision at all.


look at it Mr. Lee: May I rem ind t he hon.

· Membe r- Sir Frank McDavid: J have no in I am ten t ion to g-ive way t.G anybody.

ro he1,1· quite wiJ li n g re• mark:- , b u t J am not going to g ive way am!

allo,1· an.1·011,~ tu make a s peech.

interjected Mr. Speake1·: Three Memb-ers rose a lmost s im11 ltaneo,.1sly.

Mr. Macn ie fin,J-.

I also saw Mt;.

Lee, but I was looking at Mr. Raatgever who apparently rose to co rrect that statement.

Did t h e hon.
Did t h e hon.

Member wish to co r rect t hat statement 1 Mr. Raatgever : Yes, Sir, I ros-) Le, a po in t of concction and I think I am ent itled to that r ight.

Mr. Speaker : Cor rection , yes.

Sir Frank Mc-Dav id .

Mr. Spe,Lker, I am not g oi ng tn :1linw any Member to J was not making co rrect wha t J ,;a id.

a statement of fact.

Jf t he hon .

Mem ber wishes to draw a diffe r ent cnn clus ion he can clo so.
Mlr, Speaker : I ask ed if the1·e was fig-u res a correction-perhaps of you ga.v-e in respect of the votings-tl-ia t the hon.

Member wished to make.

the Sir Frank McDavid: J said t h e '·divi,;ion of opinion" on the prirn·1p1e of F ed e 1·ation wou ld h ave been 11-1 1. on the p;round th,11; the t hree Official 2095 Motion-B1·iti~h 16TH MARCH, 1955 Cai·ibliaan PedP.rrrtion 2096 fSfr Fr.ank McDavicl] Members were notoriously both per-· :;onally and officially in favour.

hon.
hon.

Member wi ll have ,rnother occasion to interrupt me.

Mir.

Speaker: You a re giving yo•1r Mr. Haat.gever: I am ;;aying thai uwn view.

that is incorreet, Sir.

I r Sir :Frank McDavid : Let me pa::,s or., please, to another point.

Mr. Speaker: lVIr.

lVIacnie, what i;:; your point?

Mr. Lee: The hon.

Membet· was on the Executive Council then.

Let him state what l1appe11ed t here.

Mr. Speaker: When a Member rises to a point c,f order or correction the Member s peaking should resume h :s 1,eat.
is the hon.

Member's objection.

I mw,t know what Mr. Macnie: I will only speak now that the hon.

Member has taken I would never remain staml • h is seat.

to another T11ember if ing raise some objection, as no two Mem I bers can stand at the same t•ime.

was merely questioning the correctness of t h e hon.

Member's assumption of how people who did not vote would have voted.

rose Sir Frank McDavid: I was not talldng about voting, but of the division J ar:1 rnying now catf!· of opinion.
gorically that I, a':l Financial Secretary at the time, and Mr. Holder, as Attorney General at the ti me}, wer e notoriously ir.

favour of F ederation, and so was our respected Colon ial Secreta1·y, Mr. Gutch.

bot:h officially and personally.


I know that some p cl'~ons will not like this argument at all, b~cause it completely cuts from uncle,· their feet this declara tion which has been going on both in this Colony and u·ut of t11e Colony, that the elected Membei·s of the Legislature ·were completely £,galr.st the p1·in ciple I am of Federation.

going to r efer to thi-; point again.

+h1; It is not correct.

Sir Frank McDavid: Y~s.


I wa,; bitterly disappoint~d at the result of that debate in Hlfil, nnd I confess now that I took a step which, as it turned out to be, was a grave error of tactics, in order to Rave something out of tl,e wr eck and to demc,m:trate to the people of the West Ind ies that we in Britis!J Gu iana, notwithstanding this unfortu nate result, were st[I!

interested in the, I per preliminaries of F ederation.
:-ouacled the Governor to perm,it me to ir.trod,uce in t he Council a motion having for its object the securing of the ar, proval of the L egislative Council of <1 Customs Union of the British Carib bean territories.

The McLagan Report, from wliich lVIr.

Sugrim Singh quoted some figures yesterday, had just bef'n issued.

I introdused that motion in Feb niary, 11)52, and 1 spoke on it for about It was seconded by my half an ltour.

colleague, the the:1 Colonial Secretary.


and thereafter 0nly one Member spoke -Mr. Ferreira.

He spoke for about five minutes and the motion was put ar,d carried unanimously.

I ·was disappointed in that debate, because I expected and hoped that it would have sti mulated Members to say some words indicating their interest in what was going- on.

In the cour-;':l of m_v remarks on that motion ·I made rn:'e of some phrases to what 1\1.r.

1vhich, quite contrary Sugr im S ingh said, ca used a certaii?
amount of suspicion in tl1e minds of West Indians.

I pointed out t he fact !.hat in a Customs Union, a free trade area of th is r e~ion of British Guiana and of the West Indian Islands, we h'.

Btitish Guiana had moi-\t to gain by reason of t l11, fact thAt our visible trade was greatly in om· favour.

I am glad that the hon.


M'"mLer, Mr. Sugrim Sing]l, quoted all those figm,e" a.bout ~ 2097 Motion-B1·iiish LEGISLATIVI~ COUNCIL Cm·ibbean Fed,erati>on 2098' our rice exports _yesterday, because that bears out the point.

That volume of trade from British Guiana was mainly on ac:count of the huge quantity of rice sold in the West Indies.

Mr. Sugrim Singh quoted it at $9 million.

That volume of trnde far exceeded in value the import trade.
Mr. Sugrim Singh ,:eferred to the "odds and ends" that come in here.

Apart from gasolene and kerosene oil, the only substantial im ports,--all the others were odds and ends -were a little 8o3p.

ma,rg:1 rine, spices, etc.

Mr. Lee: Do you ouject to a Cus toms Union ?

Sir Frank McDavicl: At the present time new trade ir, cement manufactured in Trinidad has developed in t l1 e West Indies.
But certainly the position still is, that in a Customs Union we in Brit ish Guiana bnvc the !1'1os1l> advantageous positlon, because we have a favourable trade balance compared with all thP otl1ers.

Mr. Sugrim Singh: Why should w1; federate then ?

Sir Frank McD-avid: The reason is.

we would not get our exports out.

'Tliat lt is a fai r answer.

Let me continue.

wa;·.


on account of the emphssis which I laid on this fact (for local consump tion altogether) t.hat our friends in the West Indies became extremely suspi cious of our attit11de, and eventuall:; they felt tl1at Brifrih Guiana wantfid to get in at the b~ck door nnd to have an the advantages of a regional union without the obligations of the union.

That attitude was aggravated by the hon.

Member, l\fr.

Raatgever, who :ct that t•me was our repres entative on several Committee,: .
including the Re gional Economic Committee.

He moved around Indian Islands de claiming about our ''Magnificent Pro vince" and its ·' Continental Destiny.''

l cfo not blame th,~ \Ve,:t Tncl ics for bcin!!

rnmpletely suspicious of this attitude of British Guiana, and so was born in th(l the West West Indies what became a slogan - " No Federation, no Customs Union."

Throughout the West, Indies one heard that.


That was directed at us, because they felt we were trying to gain the benefits of an economic union without the obligations which followed.

Mr. Lee: You did not hear that Federation without British Guiana is no Federation?

That is t h e slogan now: Sir Frank McDa.vicl: Fortunate!~ we are now retrieving some of the lost goodwill.
Mr. :3ugrim Singh referred r:tther scathingly to our participation in the West Indies Shipping Service, and said that the West Ind ies d-id not condescend to send the shi-p here.

The ship does not come here by arrange ment.

We in British Guiana told the West Indies that we had several small ships of our own quite capable to takr our produr.e to Trinidad, but we l'e cogn ised fn]\~, the right :1nd the desire of the We,;t Indies 1o have a ship of their own, and we were prP-parecl to support it.
We supported it with a token contri bution of $4,800 a year.

If the sl1ip was coming to British Guiana that contri bution would have h~d to be increased.

One of the r easons why the W,est Inclie,: accepted that suggestion was because they felt that in the initial stages of the shipping service the ship should not spen(l mcH·o:, than 28 days on a round trip.

If Brlfr,h, Guiann came into it, that round trip wo11ld be unnecessaril3• extended.

I have so far dealt w ith his tory, though not very far 'back.
I think T will come do-wn now to the present.

In speaking a b c, u t Federation 1 want to expatiat'" t'n the advantages a nrl disadvantage,;, the credits and debits.

I am going to adopt the rather unusual procedme of speaki n g first about the disadvantages, and then !

::ttei· on desl w ith the advantages of Federation.

Fortunately, in i;p•'!ak;ng about tl,e di s advantages l do n ot haYe to draw on my own thoug·hts.

\Ve~ have listen ed fo1· seven long hours to Mr- $ugrim Singh 20!)!
; M otinn-Erit.ish 1.HTH l\IARCH, Ul5fi Cari/1/ienn Ferlera.tinn 2100 I Sir Frank McDavid.j s lating the case aga inst Federation.

lf (,!1er1: ;1 re ,111y p11i11 t.:-; whieh Mr. Sugrim tii11gl1 has uvL t 11vered.

t.hen obvio u:-:Jy they r ,1trnol lie 1~0,,d 0 11e ,;.

::\ecoudly, we have h ad the adv;i11tagc 01' Mr. Raat gever-';; published ,;tatemenL i11 antici pation of thi;; debate.
This is a tech nique Mr. RaatgeYer has used before-• ' write out his speec:]1, issue it to t h e Press , ancl get his favourite newspaper to pubJi,d1 it with his photogrnph above it.

:\'Jr.

Raatg;ever : T must take excep t ic,n to thi,;.

1 nm not going to sit here and let the hon.

Member speak in that I expect :10u, Sir, to call him to wa~,.

o!·der.

Yon are here to protect Member::;.

M r. Speaker: I must ask the h r.11 .

Meml1el' ( Si l' Fr:mk MeDavitl: to re sume his seat.

'Wlwt.

is the hon.
'Wlwt.

is the hon.

Mem ber ':-: objec:tion '!

Mr. Raatgever: My objecti on is to the per sonal rem:uk:-: the h on.

Membrr is making.

T 1rill sa.v ihnt they are un called for.

Mr. Speaker : I do not t hink the ton.

Member ought to have said that r,n hon.

Member published hi.s speech and got the newspaper to publish his photograph.

Mr. Raatgever: Further t h an that, wh en I gave the interv iew to the Press it wa,:; a Thn rs<la:v. J (lid not then know anything- aliont the Rev.

Ivir.

Bobb's motion .


r <l id nut Hien know that we ,vere ,-,en<ling a represimtativc to Trini•• dad.

That c,1mc ou L in t he n e,vspaper~ .

on the Saturda.v.

The Rev.

Mr. Bohh's motion was g iven to me on the Satur day TrlOl'll ing- Hfter I had already sent in m:,, st atement to th e Press.

So that t he hon.

Member i:-: making a statement :vhich is totally incorrect.

It is like him to make statements of t hat kind.

Mr. Speaker: I am sure the hon.


Member for Ag r kulture would like to qualify the words he used, Sir Frank M'cDavid: The ho11.

Member is unduly sensitive.

I am de,·d ing with Mr. Jtaatgeve l· a,-; a polit ical [Jcrsou a nd d is regarding him a::; a private individual.

Ther efore be uu gh L not to J,r so sern; itive.

The statement oI which I am ta lk ing begins :n a c:uri.ou~ way.

It Legins by saying : "Fede.ration is .in the air again.
A thir<l and concerted attempt is being made to force our people to sell their birthdght for a mess of pottage ....... .

t o be It iR quite obvious that anyon e would draw t he eonc!

us ion t hat he sus pected, even if he did not know, that :1 motion was go ing introduced.

Howeve1·, I accept the hon.


Member's explanation that he did n ot know a motion was g-oing to be introduced: that he just decidecl to g r ant an inter view to the Pre;;s, and to publish this statement in advnnce of anything that might take pl ace in this Legislative · Co uncil.

Tn resume my story.
Tn resume my story.

Mr. Raat statem ent, plus Mr. St1grim g-eve r's f,ingh's speech, pl'ovide me with t he basis of the case :,g;iinst Federation, and I do not JH·opoic:e to draw on my own imagination 0 r my own thoughts for the ai·guments against Federation.

Mr. Sugrim Singn's speech was very lc,n g, and if I try to cover all the points that h e made l shall be speaking for ,;even h our s as lrn did.

But, fortunatf, ly for me, I have certain colleagues who w ill deal with the points I omit.
I shall only take ·wlrnt I consider to be the main obj<>cttions ·v:hich seem to arise out of his specC"h .

The first point, of c:ou r :;c, is t he c-on,-;titutional one.

I am not go ing to g<, over that ground again as I am quite sure the hon.

th e Attorney General w ill deal with it more capably than I c:an, anll it Jrn;; been t he subject of your rul ing, .Mr.

Speak er.

The hon.
Speak er.

The hon.

M.embe1·, Mr. Sugrim Singh , did try to draw some analog->' between the doctrine which is practised in the Law Courts- once a matter is settled and decided it cannot ,be raised again.

I believe in tru e case of a criminal charge it is called ai~tref Di$ acq1.tit, or something like that.

, 2101 Motion-British LEGISLATIVE CDUNCIL Caribbean Fede1·a.tion 2102 Mr. Sugrim Singh: Res ,iudicata.

J'iiir.

Speaker : The hon.


Member used Lhe term rnr; jurlica.tct which mem1s the same thing in some respects.

When the same issues are before a Civil Court bE>tween the same litigants, and a de ciidon has been gL1en, it is not open to have the same issues argued all over again.
The mattei: 1s then said to be In a criminal trial, if a res fuclicata.. person has once been charged for the same offence as that in respect of which he is again broug-ht before a Court, a plea of cwh·efoi;; ru:ql!.it may be properly raised.

that he has been.

accinitted of tlvJ offonce and cannot be tried again for it.

lt mean<; Sir Frank McDavid : The point ht was trying to make wrts that that doctt·ine shou ld apply in this Legislature because the ·;ot"ing in 193~ wa,; decisive.
I h ave already trieci to analyse that v,i,ew, and have indi ~atecl that there was nothing decisive in it.

[ ·;·1·-"- ;;aicl that form.

i;; discussed l\fr.

S ,1grim Sin!-\·h : 1 rise to a point of correction.

1 clid use the term 1 e8 j11d-icatfl, but I put it in a hypo thetical if this Council were a Court of Law, Wh..;n 3 matter and decided j11d·i.cata might the principal of have applied .
1t was not a cate goric11l J went 011 further to ;;ay it was leg:i.l for this Tnterim Government to do any thing, bnt T went on to say t hat it ought not.

I was not drawing any mrnlogy to place this Council on the s.:me basis as a Cour'c of Law.

It was intrnclure<l as a hypothetical proposi tion.

statement.

Mr. Speaker, Sir Frank McDavicl : 1 thank the hon.

Member for tha t explanation and [ will not pm·strn it.

I may have bee,1 confused, having hE·ard so many words.
J rememlJer also havinµ: on t h e previous S·undav listened -in while the hon.

Mem ber was vocifernusly debating on llie ntdio the academio question o:C whether or not this Council is competent to com• mit British Guiana to Federation.

I believe he was .almost angry on that oe;e;a;;ion.

'l'he next point to which I woul<l draw attention is Mr. Sugrim Singh': in strong assurance, based on his the voting on an terpretation of mnendment in th~ 'fl-inidad Legislature that Trinidad does not wm1t us.
Mr. Sugrim Singh spe11t a lot of time de- vdoping that :irg-ument, and he read and re-read part of the amendment which was moved in the Trinidad Legis• lature in December, 195,1.

Mr. Sugrim Singh : Again I mu:ot I 1·e11.d rise to a point of correction.

the whole motion and the entire a mend• ments at the request of the hon.

movm· of the mortion-not part of it, but the whole motion.
Sir Frapk McDavid: I know t1rnt, but I am <lea.ling with only one section, and the particular ,>ection to which l am referring is Condition No.

4.

That is- the point on which the hon.

Member based his conclusion.

Condition No.

4 was: "That every effort be made to include British Guiana in tne Federation (but by democratic process, i.e.
by the expressed wish of the people either through elected representativ,es or by plebiscite) so that the ~conomic r esources and land ·space of British Guiana be also available to the iedera.ted nation, and British Guiana be enabled to take its pbce at an earl:y dafo in a democratic system.•• Mr. Sugrim Singh drew from the> :fact that the arnendrnent was negatived in Tt·inidad by 7--13, that there was a trend of opinion in the Trinidad- Legis lature that they did not want us.

Am I war_t I right?
Am I war_t I right?

That is wlint he did.

to tell him that the nmendment which wns moved in the Trinidad Legislature, six conditions whict cnnsi,;ting of the acceptance 0f were attached to to b!!

Federation (here I am goiug categorical) wa,; nothing more than a, ruse, n trick to delay, obstruct and 2'103 Motion-British 113TH MARCH, 1955 Caribbettn Federtl!,tion 2104 th,~ liked to kill I<'o:.deration.

hon.
hon.

Member [Sir Frank McDavidJ I would finaily have to have read the debate in Trinidad in full, as those Members who opposed that amendment expluined that completely It was, shall I say, a low and fully.

trick.

Let me explain again what thP first condition of that amendment was -that before Trinidad accepts Federa-• tion H.M. Government were to get Parliament to pass legislation granting ~240 million to the Federation to be spent over five year~ in developing thB backward colonies.
Also an Ac-t of Parliament was to be passed to grant the Federation anuther $24 million to help it establish it,; capital.

Another rnndition was what I have just said that British Guiana was to be invited tc, express its agreement with Federa tion by democratic p1·ocess.

All of that would have taken, not one year but five years.

Defore those> conditions could be fu lfilled, Federation, which is nov, 1·ight arcund th.a corner, would be in if not destroyed.
.definitely delayed, Consequently I do describe it, as it was described in Trinidad, as a ruse and a trick, and so we must not draw any conclusion from that.

Guiana's participation in Federation.

there are several publications of speeches in all of the islands which will bP.ar out the fact that they want us.
As an illustration I would like; if I it, just to quote for one can ·find moment a passag-£i in the "Barbados Advocate" reporting speeches the,re in the Federation ffebate in the House of Assembly where Mr. Mottley used these very significant words :- I can hear "With British Guian:1 and British Hon duras not coming in, a serious blow is given to our effoij·ts.

A very serious blow indeed."

lV(r. Sugrim Singh s:iy '·That is wlrnt l bave been saying my• self.
They t hink it is a serious blow if we do not ;join in."

The hon.

Mem ber contradicted himself so many times, hut his most serious contradiction was that while with one breath he was say ing that the amendment showe<l thal Trinidad did not waiit British Guiana, in the next breath he said that Trinidad wants our land and our wealth .

Which does he mean?

Doe,i Trinidad want us If the hon.

Member reads the or not?

record of his speech lie will see that the I do not know contradiction stands out.
on which side he stands.

Mr. Lee : I do not know whether the language attributed by my friend to the Trinidad Legisl2ture is correct.

Sir Frank IHcDavid : llf the hon.

Member would read the report he would see the words "ruse" and '~tr.ick" and other language whir.h would appal him.

I am hoping that the hon.

Member, Mr. Sugrim Singh, w ill accept what I say, and that is that his eonclusion is wrong that British Gui'.
'l.na was not wanted British Guiana was wanted and h. I have too much wanted by Trinidad.

1·espec.t for Mr. 8ugrim Singh, and too much liking for him, to accuse nim o[ vsing his argumrnt.

as a trick, but I am going to warn him that others are not going to be sn generous.

If we want to find out what is the attitude of the West ImUes towards British the member::i· Mr. Sugrim 8ing·h : I must rise to a point of correction.

The trend of the hon.

Member's logic is completely off the track.


What I intended to conve:; was that the amendment was lost.

J was even asked to mention the names of voted.

The point is that in the result of the voting they have shown that they do not wam British Guiana in the Federation.

That was my point, but in the very amend ment they mentioned about land spnce.

rhe hon.

Member has not read the amendment.


roay refresh his I memory, th is is what it says: :who If "That every effort be made to include British Guiana in t'ne Federation (but by democratic process, i.e.
by the expressed wish of the people either through elected representatives or by plebiscite) so that the economic resaurces and land space of British Guia:pa be also availal:lle tp the j J 2105 Jlfo,!ion-lJrilish LEGISLAT!YE COlJNCtt Caribbean Federation 2106 federated nation, and British Guiana be enabled to take its place a t an early date in a demfJcratie system."

I t hink Sir Frank McDavid: I have all.owed t he hon.

Member enougn time to intervene.


How can he argue both ,mys" In one breath he argued that by t he fact that the amendment.

was lost it was clear that they did not want us, while in t he nex t br eath he argued last por t ion of the amendment they wanted our land space.

l'eason of that by the Mr. Sugrim Singh: They were two completely different t h ings.

Mr. Speaker: The hon.

Member is quite r ight in sayiug that the amend ment expresses some desire to have It British Guiana in the Federation.
is the only inference one can draw.

Sir F1,ank McDavid: I will pass ,)n to my next point w ith respect to Mr. Sugrim Singh's argument-the point he laboured so muc.

!1 about the const itu.

tion of t he Federal Government repre sen t ing a s urrender of control by the unit Gove!'nment.t".

and par t icularly by British Guiana.

Of course it is a sur i8 wrong with th at ?

render.

What I1~deed every process in a democratic in ~:titution is a surrender of control in one form or anot her.
The people, when they elect Mr. Sugrim Singh, surrender to him a certain amo;mt of control, and he in turn surrenders some control to t he Me!l".bers of the ~ xecutive Council.

The point is that t he control must not In be in t he hand,; vf an alien body.

this r espect Mr. Sug-rim Singh for gets that the central organisat ion, t he F ed eral Government which is set up·, will It is, Trini be composed of a family.

dad, Barbados, Jamaica and t he other Colonies acting together to establish that control.
It is not an alien control.

While I am ('n that point I want touch on a cudous misconception to about what m ig h t happen in the F edernl the idea that in Parliamen t. Most of the people who speak i,n oppos ition to Federation con the Federal ceive House of Representatives the Members represen ting each territor y are going to s it in gr oups, watching each other like C,!ts and dogs and trying to out -vote one another.
They seem t o conceive the idea t hat Brifo;h Guiana is always going to be fighting for her rights against a combination of Is land terri tories; and that Jamaica and T r inidad are going to combine against all the r est, or that Barbados and the smaller Islands w ill combine against J amaica, 'J'rinidad and British Guiana.

It is quite conceivable that the division in the Federal Parliament w ill not be along t erritorial lines at all, but along party lines.
I do not know if Mr. Sugrim Singh is a member of a I t is qu,ite political pa r ty ary more.

conceivable t hat the United Democratic th emselves closely Party might ally the with their friend,;; in Jamaica - and they People's National P ar t y - might form another Party and call it, s ay, the Car ibbean National Party.

It is qu ite conceivable that a Caribbean L abo ur Party may be la unched, and tliere may also be a Conservative Party.
J do not want to prophesy but I put it to Members that what may well hapr,r.n is t he formation of separ ate Parties rnnning thro ug h t he whole 1·egion, and that the division in the F ederal P arl ia ment will not be a.Jeng territorial l ines at all, but t hat each P arty will endeavou1· to do what we want them to do.

We may find the Parfo~s may have on their election platform one g r eat thing - " Develop British Guiana".

Mr. Sugrim Singh: You are very optim istic !


Sir Frank McDavid: I am a lways optimist ic, and what I have just said is perfectly logical.

I think that having put it to Mem'bers, they will think ii rt:>asonable, and t h,Lt they will not con• 2107 Motion-British 16'1'1-i MARCH, H>55 Caribbean Federation 2108 '>;c'!

"_:,-..--- [Sir Frank McDavid] linue with the iclect that we would be out-voted by the other units.

,l The next point is very simple.


Mr. Sugrim Singh laboured over and over again the question of distance, and he if stressed "l,500 miles-" as that I would terrifyi11g distance.

was ask him not to let his children hear that story, because his own children are probably thinking of space travel- not a mere 1,500 miles.

The distance between Victoria, the capital of British Columbia, and, let us say.
H a lifax, is about 4,000 mik:,-!and all the way the 5reatest barrier of a]I .incl yet is a land bai"rier of mountains.

Mr. l\facnie and I have both had the privilege of travelling mo1·e t han once acros:; the Rocky Mountains, a!

!d I can assure the hon.

Member that jt is a greatei· barrier· to transport than 1,500 m iles of ocean.

We .all know that.

the day of the aeroplane has corn .. ,, and I can assert con fiden tly that a distance of 1,500 miles is nothing· at all n ow.
I can prophesy that within 10 yf'arn there will be a land-air ser vice betwee n British Guian::; ;ind Jamaica, and we will be able tri leave British Gu iana in the morning, have lu nl'l1 in .Jamaica a ncl return he-r t: lo sleep in ihe night.

1 remember that at the · last meeting 0f the R.E.C.

Mr. Albert Gomes did t~;is more than once.

He attencled Lhe 1-{.E.C .

m eeting a t Bar liaclos and in the afternoon he left to have dinner in Trinidad.

The next.
The next.

morning he return ed to :tttend the meet in g. T hat is a commonp lace.

The territories are .

:ie_1_Jar,:tecl by sea which is no ba rrier at all; it is rather a link.

1 clo not wish to labour th e point, but.

to talk about distance between the terri tories as an objection to Federation is to weaken the arg-11ment.
Mr. S ug r im Sing-h made a point nbout freedom of m0vement, allied with his proposition that British Guian a was going to be the dumping ground not only for produce but for people--all the un- the the troubie explain to t rying hard employed, blind o.~ s ick, those other territories-would be dumped also went ir.

British Guiana.
British Guiana.

He to great that to stop Trinidad was that, and that Barbados was taking exactly t h e opposit~ attitude - wish ing- to push th~ ir surplus people into Trinidad -· and that if we joined the F-ecleration the Bame thing wou ld happen t o us.

This question of freedom o'f.

mo vement is undoubtedly a very s erious one, and that is exactly what t he cm> fc rence which is n uw t aking place in is all a bo ut.
We6t Indian Trinidad leader s have gathered t he re becaus e tl;ey believe a soiution of it must be found, ,md there mus t be compromifJe on both sides.

I want , if .l may, for the first time since I began speaklng, to read, beca11:'e I have come across in this Hansanl of the de.bate in Trinidad a sign ifitant quotation by the hon.

Mt·.

Hannays .

We all know him as a most distinguished legislator.
On pag~ 657 of the Hansard report Mr. Hanrn1ys, in order t o explain this question of freec-iom of m ovemen t and its implications, did something that lie doe:-; not often do, and t hat i~ to read an arli cle from th:) "Bal'bados Advocate" wh ich w,1s so s i gn ifi ca nt, :;o well written , that I enfo~e]y agree with him that it coven:d the whole g r ound adequately .

Therefore I am asking yo ur permission, S ir, t o r N,d what l\:I r .

Hanna:vs read in t he Triniclacl Legislat ure.

Saicl iVIr.
Saicl iVIr.

Hannays: in Barbados " .

.

..

I believe i t is well known that the tl1l, leading n cwsp apc,· ADVOCATE, and l hav e before me (:;ome a n on ymous gentleman sent it to me) the ADVOCATE of Sunday, 19Lh S;::plcmbcr.

1%4, in w'hich uher~ is an atiicle on pag'i!


8, headed "Freedom of Movement' ', and th is is what it says:- is "One of the most outstandbg issues conce rning the proposed Federation of the British Caribbean T erl'itories, as rar as Barbados is concerned , involve3 ar,1·eem ent wi.i'h all the othe r t e rri to ries of the British West Indies fo r the inclusion of th e principle of free dom of movement w ithin t he Feder a tion .
It is a basic principle of great impor tance and value for an y such 2109 , Ma!Jio11r--Brilish LEGISLA'l'lVE!

CotJ.NC!L CaribbP.an F'ecleration 2110 Federation and for its people, yet there is prevalent a high degiree oi confusion over tht' meaning and scope of t'he term.

Until that confusion is remoVled, sure progress towards Fed eration may i'Je impeded.

''Several guide-posts in a considera issue may be usefully tion of this .

:;potlighted.
:;potlighted.

"Firstly, the proposed Federation i:; not a union of territories with a cen tralised form of.

government and the assumption by tha1 government of r~ sponsibility for local political organisa tion and for the primary social and welfare needs ef the people of all ti.c territories.

Each territory unde1· such Fedcrat:on will remain responsible for its own self- government and for l!ic welfare of its own people.
The sei,,arate nature of these entities wili l'emain forever buttressed by their status as Islands surrounded by a water barrier.

the welfare of "Secondly, it is certainly not a pa:1 t of the planning for the British Carii.J bcan Federation that Barbados, for instance, shculd assume responsibility for the employment of Trinidadians or that Trinldad should assume re sponsibility for ::it.

Lucians.

togdher with the mainl<'n ance of hospitnls, asylums'' (tha, would be necessary!)
"and system s o[ social security or relief for such non- natives.

Each Island entity m usl.

continue to be re.ponsible for the problems or 11s ewn people, and con versely it cannot justly be expected t0 assume similar responsibi!it,y for the welfare of 1.he people of other Island;, w'hether withl)ut or within its teni torial boundaries .
it "Accordingly, is entirely right that each Island should insist that such e mploym~n•, o.S is avai!able with'n its boundaries, or as may be later de veloped th erein, ~hould be first re served for the native people of tl1r,t I slan d. and those who 'have by due law been accepted as process of ''citizens" Canel ai•c many thousands hc1·e!)

and have esta blished a r ecognised domicile therein.
Equally, that is entirely such facilities and such resources as are available in each Island for the relief of unemployed or the care o( the sick a1vl infirm should be first reserved for its own people.
there right it "Barbados no less than Trh1idacl, .should be concerned about a possible influx of naliv..,s of other Islands, who under changed conditions might pour into th.is Island to seek employment with the always p1:esent possibility t'hat some of them «t least might subse quentl,y become public charges upon the Island or upon Parish or private laws of this charitable fund~,.

The Island and agretments entered into with other Isla.nds s'hOuld foresee such possibilities and guard against them.
"In similar m.::nner, the Premier o!

Barbados was e:itircly correct when he spoke 'n the debate in the House of Assemhly on this issue and said freedom oI t'nat movement of persons needed certair.

qualiCcation;; --that n o Island , for in stance, should b e expected to acccpl persons from another Island who were suJ[cring infectious or con tagious dise,se, er who were habitual criminals.

the principle of from r-;hores and pl'Oceed ''As a basic pr;nciplc.
the 1·ight oi the citizens oI the Federation to leave fhei1· native t0 other parts of the Federation should this principal be guaranteed.

Yet clearly sho'.lld not mean that p;c'.·scns iu one part of rhe Federation should have an unrestricted right to employ ment: or to wt:lfarc in nnothcr p,11·t of the Fede,·atior.. "Barbados wti'i its great problC'm of over-population is attracted, na!

'.11·ally enough.
'.11·ally enough.

by the possibility that a con sidernble portion of its surp'.us popula tion might lincl a place of residence .ind livelihoo:1 in some other, undc1· populated, p::irt.

of the Federation.

But surely this must depend upon t h (: desire and even the 1·equesf, of that othei· part 0£ tht' ,F ederation to re ceive such immigrants, and to wel com<!

them under such terms and con ditions as it might find desirable to stipulate.
Barbados no less than Trini dad should insis1 on the same safe~ guards as regards its own future.

"Hence, it is necessary to distinguis.r.

carefully in or.e'!- thoughts between "freedom of movement'' as movement.

=d as unrestrictE-d rig'hts to employ ment, care livelihoocl or physical which belong in the first instance to other people.
"The task which faces t'he political leaders of the West Indies is to agree on the best :neaP.s of protecting their native population5 while aiming for a long-term c;ratl ual abolition o{ such protective mea~uro:,s. 'l·he method which r 21li Motion-British [Sir Frank McDavid] 16TH .MAR~l-l, i 955 Caribb1,w11.

Peclenitior~ 21lz' most readily springs ,to mind is the operation of a system similar to that now in p ractice in the United States.
Any person desiring to take up p er manent residenc~ in another unit of the Federation would h ave to satisfy the Government •cf thart unit either that he had a job to go to or that there was some person in that un1t of sufficient means who was willing to be his bondsman and who accepted the liability of maintaining him should he become a char ge upon t he State.
If he should lose h is job t hen t'he Gov ernment of that unit could r epatriate him at the expem•a of the Governmen t oi his n ative Jsl811d w'ho could then try to get back from him the cost of his .repa,triation."

I think I have read enough to give the key to what this article in the ·' Bar bados Advocate" meant, and what Mr. Hannays, who read it in the .. Trinidad Legislature, al:;o meant.

Put in simple this : There language, he means is great confusion of thoug ht about freedom of movement.
Naturally, in a Federation there m ust be the inherent right of every citizen to move from one place to another, but that does not mean that the r ight to move from one country to a nother and secure employment at the expense of the citizens of that other country must also be guaranteed.

Mr. Sugrim Singh: to a point of correction I wish to rise Sir Frank McDavid: I cannot allow the hon.

Member interrupt me.

I am afraid t o Mr. Speaker : What is the form of correction?
Mr. Sugrim Singh: I would like the hon.

Memb er to continu e to read from that report of the debate.

I would like him to read lVIr.

Hannays' speech on page 656 of the H ansan/ .. Sir Frank McDavid': I am afra id I have J am not going to read that; not read it m yself.

I have read t he quotation by Mr. Hannays of an article.

The J- on.

Member can hand it to another Mem ber of th€ Opposition and let hin read it.
is The point 1 am making that, with th at freedo m of movement, which must be guar ant eed, t here must be the 11ecessary <.

:oncomitant which will safeg uard the employment r ights of the c::tizens of each u nit, and that i.;, entirely what thr_, conferen·ce in Trini dad is abo ut : am!

let us hope that t h" I know correct for mu la will be found.

a formula will be found.


It is a diffi cult problem in the sense of framing in words, in constitutional language, whrrt we mean , b ut a t the same time it is not difficult for anyone to constrne what I have been trying to put across.

So I hope that no other Member who is going to speak in opposition, w ill con tinue along the strain of t h e hon.

Mr. Sugrim Singh- to talk abo ut dumping t!

'",eir surplus unwanted population on British Guiana.
If we have Federa tion I am perfectly Stll"e that is not going to happen, and that when t h e movements of surplus populati,on do take place they will take place on plans and schemes formulated by t he Federal Gov ernment at the expense of the Federal Govemment and with the agreement 0£ t he unit Government.

That is a matter which I w ill develop later when I de velop the opposite ,irgument in favo ur of F ederation.

Mr. Sugrim Singh went on to talk I do not al:i<rnt dumping of produce.
know which he was more afraid of wh ether it was dnmping of people or produce-but I know that ther e are col:· leagues of mine who may prefer to deal with this partic:nlar aspect of the ,..vi!l not steal their question, and I thunder, but I wan t to ask him one question.
If he were a Trinidadia1~ growing padi and getting it sold at h pric:e higher in Trinidad than the East Indian farmer her E' gets for his padl, and if Br itish Guiana came in to t h e Federation in a way which would pre vent h im from continuing to do t hat, can easily what would he say?
I 2113 M otion-B1·itis h LEGISLATIVE COUN'CIL Caribbean Federation 211-1 - hear the Trinidadian or Jamaican rice farmers who are being subsid ised now nnd growing padi under uneconomic conditions, and getting away with it .. saying : "These British Guianese arc dumping here their mi'llions of gall ons of ri.ce; we m ust stop it.".

is a two-way Dumping traffic.

What we are trying to do is to frame :i convention.
a -;ystem , by wh ich Britisih Guiana and the othe1· territor ies of the Caribbean will become one regional free trade area, so that our rice will con tinue to enter ttrnt area on favourable terms.

If we do not belong to that free trade area having around it ~ C11stoms wall, w~ shall be open again to competition on equai terms with places like Durma.

That j g the danger that we face.


There again, that is a point whieh I can develop at great lengtr.. but I am perfectly certain there are o,the1· Members who can and will do ::io.

Mr. Sugrim Singh : How would the hon.

Member reconci le the -Carib the ber,n Customs Union Report on question of reciprocit:v of trade?

I mac];:, reference to our shirt factory, but let us take rice which is now being sub sidised in Trinidad for their own con s umption.
We ricP.. Would Trinidad stop planting rice under this -reciprocity as set out in paragraph 4 of the Customs Union Report so as tr, :11!ow our r ice to g-o in?

are.

exporting Sir Frank McDavicl' : That is an easy question t,) answer.

The only way Trinidad wouid be able to keep that up is by cont inuing the artificial proce,,s now ln force of rationing ri ce in Trinidad-by force maje11re .

They are rationing rice c1rnong their peop]P. while we here have more to sell than they can consume.
With free trade om competition would, without doubt, de feat any attemp:; by Trinidad t o be come self-sufficient am assuming that everyone agrees that we are in a position to grow r ice more in economically here than they can Trinidad.

Our competition would also rice.

in I defeat the attempt tu grow rice on a large scale in ,lamaica.

Our trouble with Jamaica - t hink Mr. Speaker : I t he hon, Member will confirm that I was present at the conference in Barbados in 1944 with him.
I remember a delegate spoke about the start of the cultivation of rice in Trinidad.

They have been try ing to do it for 10 years, but their pros pects are the same today, as they were then, of doing so economically.

Sir Frank McDavicl' : At the mo ment it is purely politica l in so far as Trinidad is concerned.
As regards Ja maica, Mr, Sharpe, the Head oif the Agricultural Development Corpora colleague came there, with a tion to British Guiana, and I took them the Mahaicony --- Abary R i c e lo t hem I overheard one of Sch eme.

whispe'J:-ing in a corner, "If we hall they saw anything like t h is", when the broad acres •Jf rice, the rice mill, and the bond.

The~• can only go on cul tivating rice under artificial conditions so long as we are out of the union.

1 am sure my hon.
1 am sure my hon.

friend, Mr. Jailal, will deal with this matter fully, and I shall leave it to him, as I have already take1: up too much t ime on it.

Unfortunately, I must now come down to the hon, Member, Mr. Raat geve1·, and again 1 emphasize that I am dealing with him as what I I disregard call a political pcnon.

J made him a::i a private inct;vidual.

notes on t hiR Rtaterne11t of his when it, and my description of T read it.

was certainly not favourable.


I had in mind a lot of strong adj ectives about t his statement, hut I would not use them, as the hon.

Member is very sensitive.

The only ones I will use are "egotistical."

" illugical,'" and, in some re spects, "spurious."

T m ean that as to some of his points.

I will not take them in the order in which they appear in thic: published Rtatemer,t.
Mr. Speake-r : I think it is open to question whether a Member of this lie h::\s prevt9usly Gounci!, although 1 1 211'5 Motio'n-BriUsh 16°"'.l.

'H l\IARCH, 1955 Caribue,z·n Federation • 2116 true.

,dtered mv OJJ'inion rr,1\:.

Speak er] made a statement which appenrs in the newspapers, is not en titler!

to say "J s ince that have was; published.''

l do not think the hon.

Member mnst accept the state t he newspaper;; m ent publis'lied in I r.s being necessarily t hink, I must ask the hon.
Member to re• In view of the frain frum doing so.

[Jarliarnentary pract;cp I do not think that a Member has the right to g\ve any opinion to a new1:r,1per on a matter, which the subject of a motion which has not yet been discussed.

I acqui t th e hon.

l\iieml, er, Mr. Rnatgever, of having done tlrnt, because I know he would Rpeak on :i mc,tion of this kind.

Efe ha~ already said that he did so be for e the motion · came to his hand.
is 1 do not think the hon.-Member (Sir to thr, Frank McDavid) should refer statement.

It i;; against parliamenta:·~1 practice to do s0, where the Member is present and proposes to speak himself.

The hon.

Member (Mr. Raatgever), too, I prefer the hon.

has indicated that.

Member (Sir Frank McDavicl) to wait until he has given his vie·ws.

The hon.

Member cannot take ·the newspap2r r ') port and adopt that as the Mem ber's contribution to this debate.

t hin ].
t hin ].

that is the parliamentary proi·edur e. I Sir Frank McDavid: I was firm on this statement because it bore the }~ on I accept Your Member's picture on it.

\Vhat I Rhall have te Honour's ruling.

do is to deal still w:th the publication about Federation in th~t way, but I shall not refer to it deliberately as the hon.

Member's view,; but a s views which r have heard and have adopted as final, coming th e protag-011ist eamp :lgainst Federation.

from M'r.
from M'r.

Raatgever: Perhaps I may say that the view;:; expressed in the Press interview are still my views.

They are nccording to my conviction.

Mr. Speaker: The hon.


Member can comment on the staiement in the · paper, but he must 11ot quote the actual words use<l in the report.. tbe Sir Frank McDavid: Sir, opinion has been express·ed very forcibly that th is Int erim Government has no power to r e-open the question of Fed eration or the decision to change arr1ved at by the alh!ged people's repre sentatives in 1952.

I have challenged thB accuracy of that statement already, and I intend empha ti rally to challenge it again.
The elected representatives iu 1052 were substantially of the opinion that we should hive Federation.

The I just want opinion was divided 8 to 4. if one of tu mention something - us Officials had br.en allow-eel to speak, I am quite sure, he wou ld have em phasised the great deal of confusion , thought about Dominion status.

Am Speaker?

self-government and right, Mr.

I Mr. Speaker: I cannot express any opinion b y way of ::igreement or other wise.
Sir Frank McDavid : You can easily go to self-government or even responsible government, but the ques tion of Dominioi1 statns is quite a dif ferent matter.

A territory earns Do m inion stat us.

'T'hc, territory which gets Dominion stntus is-to use the wo;·d$ that appear in this newspapel' I have in my hand -- "acco~·decl a status of an equal partner with the other nations of the Commonwealth."

T1rnt is a status that has been con,:ented to by the other partner s. to be granted out of hand.
It is not something- Mr. Sugrim Singh : May I refer tc paragraph 9 of the Rance Report v;hich woulr!

relien) the hon.

Member's nnxiety on th is qm•stion of Dominion s tatus, reference to which hns been ma<ie.
lt reads: "We ,;fart fr Qm the assumption that the main and underlying purpose of om· task is to seek the shortest path towards a real politicnl the Britjsr peoples of t.he reg+on, within 1$~ frapi~- independence for 2117 • Motion-----.,.lJn tis fi LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Caribbean Federation 2118 work o-f what Status' .. .

. "

the British Communwealth - fact by is meant m 'Dominion Sir Frank McDavid: The Rance Rt port points the way to Dominion sbt us to the Federation.
\\:hat I am saying is that British Guiana, standing by its elf, is not a!ble to earn it and to stand up as an equal partner with the other nations of the Commonwealth.

I want to pnss on to another that has been very m u c h point that the small Islands are stressed - g-oing· to be an ec0nomic millstonB around our necks.

Of course this wore; "millstone", as you know, Sir, has a classical connotation and has several meanings.
It a.ppea1·s in Sha kespeare with a different meaning from the one that is traditionai.

I suppose the onc1 usually understood c:ome:; from t he well kaown Biblical text-the hon.

Member, the Rev.

l\'li'.

Bob\ would correct me i:f i am wrong-l 'ch:=,11r, it is written: "But who so .

;hall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a m:llstone we re hanged about his neck an(l he were drnwned int o the midst of the sea.''

1Vhat is the inference ?


think myself that the person who used that quotation used it very inaptly.

I When I read this newspaper r eport t o which I Peferrerl, I beguiled my imagina tion by the tragic-comic picture of the w riter wi th t he millstone of the Is land of Dominica hung around his neck sinking intc the depths of the Caribbean Sea !

I am not s up1101>ed to indicate the per son by name.

But speaking again mo,-e seri ously, w e aU know what is meant l.Jy th is met,iphor.
The meaning is ihat there a re two or th ree of t he small Islands which are uneconomic t he sonse t h:-it th ey are not in a stat e of production which ·enables them to balance their B udget.

They have got to tie grant-a iclcd.

in Mr. Lee: May I ask if the Rance Repo,·t s a id how man_v '?

i\·Iy h on.

friend l",as n1,t stated def ir,Jtely 1101,· many.

Sir F'rnnk T\frDavid: There are a bout six in all.

I do not know the exact number, but I said that hvo or I wish my hon, three are grant-aided.
friend, Mr. Marnie, was in his seat.

Ha would have put me r ight.

Mr. Macnie (taking his s eat ) : The number change;, from year t o year.

When I was last in the Lee·ward Islands about 5½ years c1go, that was so.

Sir Frank McDavid : I sa id two or three were grant-a ided.

l\:h: Macni~: l c-annot say.

'l'here is one St. Kitts - really The number does ~hange.

in the Leeward l8lancis - grant-aided for a long time.

My im pres~ion is that Antigua no !onger gets grants- in-aid.

nica certai-1}.ly do.


l\frnt.

'ierrat and Domi Sir Frank McDavirl: St. Vincenr and Grenada do aot.

There is a small number of them that are grant-aided.

'l'he point I wish to make is this.

Not so long ago I moved a resolution in this Council thanking H .

:M:.

Government for their assistance over a long number of r ears t0 British Guiana in the form of I am just drawing the grar,ti;-iri.-aid.

picture as the vVest 1 ndies would see British Guiana.
When I became Colonial 'l'reasurer, or .F'inancial Secretary, as the post is now styled, it was my un fortunate lot to work throu gh a period of Imperi al Treasu r y control becau::.e I had to present we were grant-aicled.

ever y to obta.in approval of even the smallest ex pend it n r e. form of ar§!ument Mr. Spea ker: We cou ld not obt~i1t appr oval of our E~timates for mam• months.
Sir :Frank McDavid : Even i n the R a.nee Report t her e is a s eries of ::-tafo:tics .1 t pagi;-8 GG and 67, which give these the figu res of R evenue of all Criribbean r espect of ter ri t odes LcTLlin years, only going back us f ar as i n 2119 Motion--British ltiTH :MARCH, 1955 Caribbean Federation 2120 ~ (Sir Frank lYicD:n,id_] 'l'he years given are 1937, 193!

?,, 19-37.

1939, 1946, 1947 and Ul48.


'l'hose are the years chosen for comparative statis tics for this Report, and in the summary there is a column called ·'Grants in Aid of Administration".

The total of that column for those years I have just enumerated is .iw-,t over $·4 million, and one-third of that total is allocated to or belongs to one territory--British Gui sma.

Mr. Lee: I think there is a dis tinction between grant-in-aid and grant aided Colonies.
Sir Frank McDavid: It is a dis tinction without a difference.

British Guiana has also gr>t a lion's share of the Colonial Development and W elfore money as grants.

B1·itis1¼Guiam.

last year presented its case to''.H~M.

Govern ment and received a special grant.

We do not call s uch allocations of C.D .&W.

money grants-in--aid, but we get th~ lion's share of what is going.

· what to -be inclined feelings be I want ·would to ask hon.
Members if their they were West Indians and havjng those facts as I have, given?

Would suggest they not tha-t of all the milist ones British Guiana might conceivably be a mountain of a millstone around the neck of the Federa tion?

I am not trying to belittle British Guiana.

During my work in the Treas ury it ·was my great0.st good fo1-tune and delight, in the last stage of my official cr.reer, to be lJ.
position to bring British Guiana not only into a state of solvency but to a sound financial pos ition, such as the hon.

Member, Mr. 8ug-rim Singh, has himself emphasised, but I would like to ask this: Does it lie in our mouths with any grace to talk about economic millstones around our necks?

It does not at all.

I would honestly suggest it would come with better grace from people, whether they believe in Federation or not, to stop putting.
themselves en ;; pedestal in front 9f those sc-called poor Islands.

in Mr. Lee: I am sorry to interrupt to say that grants-in-aid for particular purposes from the C.D.

& W. are vastly different from gr.J.nts given in aid oi the cost of administration.

Sir Frank McDavid: The grnnt- 111-aid, the hon.


Member is talking about, is exactly what I am talking about-the grant-in-aid this country received for many years while I was Financial Sec retary and later those grants were sup plemented by what are known as C. D. & W. allocations.

I did not stress that, but those grants-in-aid were exactly the same type those poor West Indians get.

I say ag-am that it does not lie in our mouths to despii:,e and con demn those small Islands.
If I were to quote another text (I hope I quote it correctly), I think the correct text ,,vould be : "First cast out 1he beam out of thine own eye ; and t hen.

sl:.alt fuou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Mr. Speaker: The hon.

lVIember is the second Member during my occu pancy of this Chair to refer to a quota tion from the Sermon on the Mount.

T must aflk the hon: Jl,:Iember to look at the St. l\lI,atthew's version .

It starts with ( La1.1gh the words "Thou hypocrite".
t e1·) .

Sir Frank McDavid: I admit that, Your Honour, but my own common s11nse and generosity prevented me from starting the quotation with the correct words.

Mr. Speaker: I would like an op portunity to make s,,me remarks about the continuation of the debate.

I do not think every Member will speak for two or three hours, but it is quite plain to me that we may be three or four more days on this debate.

Today is Wednesday.

It is a, day on which we I propose to sit to · do not usually sit.
I was wondering morrow and Friday.

if I may expect Members to sit some what later than 5 o'clock and resume l 212,1 M otion- B1"itis,h LEGISLATIVE COUNCiL Caribbean Federation 2122 7 I I least after dinner, at tomorrow.

I mention the matter now, so that Mem bers can make some arrangements for tomorrow.

Does any Member support that'?

That is only one night in the week.

I do not want to suggest Friday: .Some such sort of arrangement should be made about the days on which we should meet.
Mr. Macnie: May I make a sug In previous debates in this gestion?

Chamber there have been occasions when we sat late in the evening.

We adjourned about 4.30 p.m. for tea and then continued from 5 to 7.30 p.m.

I do not know whether Your Honour means that.

Mr. Speaker: Either arrangement I am not speaking of would suit me.

myself, but as regards some extension of the time.

I know that Friday is a kind of a week-end day.

I am thinking about tomorrow.


Mr. Luckhoo: Much as I am will ing and anxious to co-operate, I do not know whether we can avoid sitting in the evenings if possible.

After a long day it becomes boring to give one's at tention.

In thnt case I would suggest that we sit on Thursday and Friday and continue next Tuesday.

Mr. Speaker: That would be the ordinary adjournmerlt.

appreciate the strain on hon.

Members, but that strain is fully experienced by legislators all over the world.
A de.bate does lose a certain amount of keenness and edge when it goes on beyond a week.

We were hoping to have a break in the Legislature for some wee-Rs, which would be curtailed if this session goes on to another week, and the object of sitting later was, if possible.

ta finish the debate by Friday.

to fini~h Mr. Raatgever: I do not think it the debate by i:J possible I agree with the hon.

Member, Friday.

Mr. Luckhoo, that we should continue as usual and adjourn to next week.
I am not PT~pared to come here and work at night after four hard days.

Mr. Speaker: I want to get some idea of the views of Members.

There roay •be quite a long session over the Hands Salaries Revision Report.

Mr. 1\facnie's suggestion jg one for a late ~itting-, which hon.

Members may con sider seriously.


it will not to cause anyone any adjourn tomorrow afternoon at 4, take tea, return at 5 and continue until 7.30 p.m. inconvenience Surely Mr. Bobb: I would agree with that, Mr. Speaker-adjour ning at 4 or thereabout for resuming at 5 tea, and going on unti.1 an early hour jn the night.

The Chief Secretary: I was hoping it would be possible to conclude this debate this week.

On such occasions I Mr. Speaker: We shall see what to can be done.

Council is adjourn€d 2 p.rn.


tomorrow.

lJ