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G<Yve1•mne?1t Noti,:P-.• 4-46 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

The Hon.

J. Gonsalves, (Georgetown South).

Wednescfoy, 8th .lnne, 1932.

The Hon.

A. E. Seernm (Eastern Demernrn).

The Council mPt pul'sua.nt to a.djoum­ tlw Gove.rnor, mtmt, His Excellency EowAHD DENH.u1, K.C.l\'l.G., PrPsident, Sm K.B.E., in the Ch,Lir.

'fhe Hon.

Jung Bahadur Singh (Dem emm-E,,;sequebo ).

The Hon.

G. E. Anderson (Nominated PRESENT.

Unofficial Member).

The Hon.


F. J. Seaford (Nominated U nofficiiLl Member).

The Hon.

the Coloni,Ll M:Ljor 8Pcret1u·y, W.Bain Gray, M.A., Ph.D.

(Edin.

), (Oxon), (Actin?

:)- B. Litt.

The Hon.

C. Farrar (Nominated U noffici1Ll Member).

The Hon.

the AttornPy-General, Mr. F. J. J. F. McDowell (Acting).

MINUTE8.

The minutes of the meeting of the The Hon.

P. J,L1ues Surgeon-General.

Kelly, M.B., Ch.

B., Council anq circulated, were c-onfirmed.

held on the 7th June, as printed The Hou.


F. Dia.s (Nomina.ted Unottici,Ll Member).

The Hon.

J. S. D,Lsh, B.S.A., Directo1· The following was laid on the of Agriculture.

table:- PAPER LAID.

document ltevort of the Chief Commissary year 1931 (Colonial Secretary).

for the The Hon.

R. E. Brassington (Westem EssPquebo ).

'l'he Hon.

,v. A.

D'Andmcle, Comptroll.cr GOVERNMENT NOTICES.

of Customs.

The Hon.

M. B. G. Austin (NomimLted Unofticia.l .Memlwl').

The Hon.

B. R.. ·wood, M.A., Dip.

For.


(C,Lnta.b.

), Conserv,Lto1· of Forests.

The Hon.

S. H. B,Lylt•y, GPnPrnl Man­ a.get·, T1·ansport ,rnd Harbours DPp1u·tmP11t.

Major the Hon.

J. C. Crnig, M.E.I.C., of Public Works.

Director D.S.O., The Hon.

J. Mullin, A.I.M.M., of L1mds and Mi1rns.

Commissione1· F.S.I., 'fhe Hon.

E. F. McDa.vid, Coloni1d Treasure•· (Acting).


Dr. KELLY (Surgeon-General) gave notice that he would move the following amendments tions:- to· the Ho:spita.l Fees Regula- 1.Tha.t the following pa.1 a.graph be added to' officer Schedule iu cha.rge of the out patients' TIEN'l'S.

to consult a member other than the I:- CONSULTING OUT- I' A 9.Auy persou dtisiriug of t be staff of a.ny hospital medical department recommends.
practitioner .,f a district consult11 $1 to $5 according to the unless the latter vrod uces in addition recommendation of poverty or pauperism son is admitted consultation shall be required ion either from a priva.te or from a medical or Government be charged to the means of the pa.tient, form, If the p�r­ of the as a result the above fee @ball be waived.

in charge dispeneary.

Such for at the ra�e of on the approved to hospital a certificate t ion shall to produce a medical olfictir 2.That Schedule VI.
be ame,,ded by sub­ the words the word "Officers" for '' ill the firgt line and by the addition �titnting " Medical Depnrtment Staffs of paragraph of the words " including end of the same line nod at the end of the third 2 (2).

line of para.graph Alms House" a.t the 2 (I) thereof The Hon.

E. G. Woolfo1·d, K.C.

(New Amsterd,Lm).

The Hon.

A. V. Crnne, LL.B.

(Lond.)

(DemPrnm River).

The Hon.

J. Eleazar (Be1·bice'River).

·· The Hon.

A. R F. Webbei·, (Western Berbice).


F.R.G.S., Mr. McDAVI.D (Colonial gave notice that he would move the Treasurer) follow 4-47 1'ax Bill 8 J.UNE, 1932.

De:5iynN Bill 448 Reyi�tration ing amendments when the Committee to the Appropriation stage was reached:- Bill 1.

In the Iii st and secuud liues of the pre­ five hundred and six hundred and fifty­ five hun:ln d amble for "five million twenty-two thousand three" substitute and: thirteen thousand nine.''

"five million oue hundred and eighty.


I move that "A Bill to McDowell): amend the Post and Telegraph Cap.

185, by making provision grant of licences reception sets for wireless " be read the fit-st time.

for the broadcast Ordinance, Tm: ATTORNEY -GENERAL (Mr. Pos:r AND Tr�LEQ1tAPu B1LL.

five hundred and fifty-seven five hundred and twenty-five'• sub­ Mr. DIAS seconded.
2.In the last two lines of the preamble for "three million thousand stitute eil!ht thousand "three million " five hundred an-I forty­ and sixty-one.

3.In the third and fourth lines of clause 2 for "three million thoueanil stitute eight thousand five hundred and twenty-five" five hundred and sixty-one."

sub­ and forty.

five hundred and fifty-seven '' three mil!ion 4.


In Schedule at Roads (Extraordinary) for "$17,700"; for "$14,255 $23,600" substitute '• rnbsti· ,vorks (Extraordinary) for tote "$10,691"; "$3,673,750" at the substitute grand total for "$3,557,525," "$3,548,061.''

at the sub.total "$3,664,286"; at Public substitute Question put, and itgreed to.

Bill read the fin;t time.


Notice was given that at a subsequent meeting of the Council it would be moved that the Bill be read the second time ( Attorney- Geneml).

UNOFFICIAL NOTICE.

Mr. SEERAM gave notice of the follow­ ing question� :- employed 1, How many Edncatiunitl by 13overnment?

2.

How m<iny of these are employed Officers are in :­ (a)Essequebo.

(b)Demerara (excluding (c)Berbice.

Georgetown).


3.How many persons have been prosecuted throngl:.out for employing the Colony for the past five years Ea.st Indian �hildren?

(a) Of nine yea1 s ot age P (bl Of twelve years of age during school hours?

4.When will Government Ordinance of 1932, in the Official proclaim the Education Gazette, be opera.ti in or:ler that the snid Ordinance ve ?

me.y PATENTS BILL.

THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL : I move that "A Bill to amend the Patents Ordi­ nance, Cap.
62, with respect granted the first time.

in the United Kingdom" be rea<l to patents Mr. DIAS seconded.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the first time.

Notice was given that at a subsequent of the Council meeting that the Bill be read the second time (Attorney-General) it would be moved .

ORDER OF THE DAY.

TAX BILL.

DESIGNS REGISTRATION BILL.

THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I move THE COLONIAL SECRETARY (Major Bain_ Gray): I move that "A Bil� further to 11,mend the Tax Ordinance, read the first time.
Cap.

37" be Kingdom) that " A Bill to amend the Designs (United Cap.

61, with respect of designs the first time.

in the United Kingdom" be read Registration Ordinance, to the registration Dr. KELLY seconded.

Mr, DIAS seconded.

Question put, and agreed to.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the first time.

Bill read the first time.

Notice was given that at the next meet­ Notice was given tlu1t at a subsequPnt ing of the Council the Bill be read the second time (Colonial Secretary).
it would be II\Oved that it would be moved meeting that the Bill be read the second time (Attorney-General).

of the Council 8 JUNll, 1932, Assistant Conser·vator 450 449 Petrolewn 'Rill · APPROPRIATION BILL.

Mr. McDAVID (Colonial I move that " A Bill to a.ppropria.te supplies in the last ses;;ion Legislative Council time. "

be read the first granted 'l'rnasurer): the of the because ( 4) the word " ordinary" · sub-section should not appear, applies petroleum.
reached of which notice to both dangerous When the Committee I shall move a further the sub-section and ordinary stage is amendment has been previously given.

Major CRAIG seconded.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill rea.d the fast time.

Mr. BAYLEY seconded.

Question put, a.nd agreed to.

Bill read the second time.

Notice was given that 1Lt the next meet­ ing of the Council the Bill be read the second time (.Afr.

JlfcDavid).
JlfcDavid).

it would be moved that The Council resolved itself into Com­ mittee to consider clause.

the Bill clause by Mr. D'AN.DRADE: I move that the following be inserted as clause 4 :- 4. :SecLion tw,,u ty-rnven of the l'riucipal is hereby amended by substituting Ordin:i.nee the word " or " for the word "nor" in the fourth and fifth lines thereof.

Question put, and agreed to.

The Council reimrned.

Notice was given that at the next meet­ ing of the Council the Bill be read the third time.

(,lfr.
(,lfr.

D' Andrade).

it would be moved that RET�NTION OF ASSISTAN'f CONSERVA'l'OR.

Mr. WOOD (Conservator of Forests): Purimant to notice I move:- That, with reference to Officer Administering of a snm of $1,317 Messa.�e No.
13 of 19.h May, approves the Government's 1932, this Council being prodded under Head X.-Forest meut, Sub,hea.i .l.<'orests ($t,640 the Esdn1ate services until 31st December, lb, 2 Assistant to $3,720 by $L'!OJ iu excess of for 1932, in order to allow of t,be of Mr. J. N. Lockie being retained Depa.rt· of 193:?.
Conservators BILL .. Mr. D'ANDRADE (Comptrollel' PE'l'llOLEUM of 1932, ,tnd, secondly, 1930 " in respect Ordinance with section : I mo_ve that "A �ill further 5 of of section by the and not as petroleum as enacted so that it should apply to 1930, in Ordir1ance, 6 of that Ordi­ 5 of the of the section of all petroleum of ordinary Customs) to a.mend the Peti·oleum Ordinance, be read the second time.
The purpose of of the this Bill is to amend the definition expression " in section " Licensed Building 2 of the Petroleum conformity nance as amended by section Petroleum Ordi,rnnce, to amend the penal clause Ordinance the Principal 1932 Ordinance any contravention of the :storage only in respect amend­ In regard to the first at present.
6 of the Pl'iucipal ment secti'on was amended 5 of the Petro­ bv section leum Ordin,m�·e, 1932, to allow of all licences of licensed being issued by the Dirlc'ctol' Works instead of bv the Governor.

Through an oversight "Licensed Princip,Ll to read "Director the object of this clause is to put that right.

The second.

iimendment- penal clause That section ordinary gallons and in certain such conditions of Police may impost\ exceeding for the storage quantity It also provides petroleum one g,tllon.
in section w,Ls 110t amended petroleum in a warehouse Building" Ordinancfc' ir1 qm�ntities and of Public \.Vorks" not exceeding of da.ngel'ous 1,500 gallons.

in respect provides subject in In 2 of the buildings of Public the definition The Message has been before the Coun­ is to the 4: ( 3 at the end of :;e::tion ).

of for the storage 100 not exce�ding or licensej ci1·curnstauce,;, to as the Inspei.
:tor-General not building, the reasons Conservators During the debate on last year the number of of Fornsts was cil fo1· some days and I think hon.

Members have read it.

Perhaps it would be best if I tried to explain for this Message.
the Estimates Assistant by one and at the time I explained reduced that I did not think it would be· possible to carry on with so small a staff, but it was no't easy at that particular time on what was a motion which I had to deal occurring any notice, with without did in Committee, why that would be.

In the light of t_he as it very clearly to explain 451 Motion 8 JUNE., 1932.
-As1/istant Conse1·vatm• -452 inter­ to the or - it of to carry on with the co­ and which there is Mr. for leavP, to allow the offi­ sometimes the receipt been carried on the he,1ch and the other two of the quantity with the urgency of buyers abroad and it has and that is all to carry could have been temporarily instances for shippers ,1 year to on the certificate at regular and issued certifi­ of timber the arrangement of greenheart of cases opemtions, Dept1rtment the Broken:1 on the Bank to pay of documents.
That even further than where it would from thi:; working of the Depal't!llent since this happened it ha:; become clear that it is going to be extremely difficult without this oJ-ficer.

At the present time there is one officer on leave.

There is also one officer on duty and Lockie who is under notice of 1·etrench­ ment.

The result is that when Mr. Lockie goes-and he was due to go a few weeh ago-it will leave me with one Assistant, Tlmt on the work of the Department.
position overcomp by refusing cer who hal'l gone on leave to go on leave, but unless all leave is to be for the rest of stopped in the Department time the situation must recur at later stages.

I was satisfied of private itlfairs for which the officer applied and had he not gone this year he would not have been able to take the couri'le at the Forest ReseMch Labora­ tories 1tt the time when our own timbers were being tested thern, which I thought desirable he should do.
The position the three officers then was that one's leave would be a year overdue due for leave.

A yea1· afterwards every officer would be entitled to leave and that position would accumulate ·with only one Assistant difficult going on has to be supet�vised by trained men, e�pecially is new, and at the same time carry on wh,tt I regard and think hon.

Members will regard as the minimum ,vork done from headquarters.
system has been elaborated operation reached the stage where now is that exporters from thi:; Colony in the majority of being paid according instead European trade custom, which is dirrnry four months after deliverv would make it very ditlic;lt for people who :;hip only a few shipments finance their of the Fo1·est the other side iw,truct ,tgainst system has that.
In ce1-tai11 have been difficult to the extent of side to finance themselves before they were paid the whole shipment Wt> have made an·,tngements with the Banks mid Brokers on the other side, and as ship­ ments arn being assembler!

val:; we have inspected ca.tes in respect assembled months before the shipment is due to of the value of arriw, and the proportion th,1t timber is paid by the Banks on our certificate.
side of the work for exporters tht>ir :;hipment services inspections sometimes from headquarters or even two nights the situation where it is extremely otlicer.

The time of inspection on the tides, inspect at sho1·t notice when an officer may not be available situation occasion it was possible wa!-l urgently th,tt I lutppened and w,1s able to do the inspection w,iv b,1ck, impossible th,tt time.
Unde1· tlwsP circumstances am appealing ofticer be retained 01· is sick, and the has already arisen on one where it wao, only by chance to make an inspection that the chance being to be ttt Ondenieeming the Department arose in .Holhmrl greenheart.

market and sub:;titutes Holland.


'l'hese substitutes had failed very badly when put to use ,1nd the result was that there were great £earn amongst buyers in Holland that when they were buying what was alleged they might get some sub:;titute, ::;arily Colony which produces 1mother wl,en t.ransbted into English he,trt.
·quantity of grcenheart quence anrl anangements system of branding type and quality There was ::;onie diminution in the bought in conse­ we1·e made for a as to ter aril'le:; considering this office should be abolished it out, leaving a sufficient the officer to be given six months' notice.
to be greenheart not neces­ but a neighbouring trne which mean.� green­ from the fact that the Council in thought that of sub;;titutes on the had bet>n sold in was formed, difficultie:; over the imporbttion and ce1·tification in this Colony.

That in the early stages when it we have to ha,a; already arisen difficult to find an and struck sum to enable Mr. CRANE: My alarm about this mat­ A numbei· of years ago, shortly for me to canv on.

'l'he work Major CRAIG seconded.


to the Council to let this until the 31:,;t December.

and we are often asked to as having fin,t call on the of the Department, from this Colony I have always for us to provide it would have been it is exti-emely the Estimates There wei·e is dependent for a long time.

and with these involving overnight that rega1·ded required, otherwise to finance an absence seve1·al an officer at before on my I 453 Jllot1,on 8 JU?o!E, 1932.
-Assistant 45-4 Conservator that the Conservator of I do not know Fornsts went into mourning fot· the strik­ ing out of that office.

He might have disliked the reduction be an individu,il dislike Council.

I certainly would have been one officer less.

of his staff and may who does not show his to the that he gathered able to carry on with this to any very grnat extent Mr. WOOD : It i,, possible that the hon.
Member is mixing up the retrench­ ,vi.th the retrenchment ment of a Surveyor who was ret1·enched of a Conservator short notice I do not I had a Poker face but I can assure the hon.

Member that my face was no retlec­ tion of my feeling at think in Committee.

.

ments having to be made consequent another officer may occur in respect being now on leave.

·what of 1933 I cannot say.

on M1·.


CRANE: I contend that an oJ:licer more greenheart as of right to go on should not be entitled do leave if the exigencies of the Service to tell not permit it.

Vve ask Government us whet.her this is not an attempt to get back the item on the Estimates.

The plea a.bout mind a. subst,antial vinced th,tt cxporte1·s of greenheart held up by reason of the fact that they cannot get their timber branded ,tccept for the :tdditional is not to my one.
Until I am con­ there is a large numbei-of is as to the necessity whose business the statement I cannot man.

Mr. CRANE : The matter with which of the Govern­ six months bec:Luse of this officer.

is the opinion If this applica­ for the necessity out this office the Elected of Forests.
only to a further is necessary, the application is to retain the of the officer for another six says that from he would be I am more concerned Council In stl'iking Members did not act on the principle th,Lt they did not want the Forest Depart­ ment.
1'hey accepted the position ment put forwa1·d that is was necessary, that the Department but they considered could be canied on with one less Assistant Conservator tion related one might not luwe much to say 1�bout it as apparnntly although :,;ervices months the Conservator his point of view at le,ist unable to carry on in the next and the fol­ lowing year without this officer.

It is therefore will come back to the Council and to retain this officer.
If I a.m told th,Lt extraordinary :wrangements made for the second half of this year, we will not incu1· and that the sa.la.ry other sou1·ce, his assent to this pl'Oposal.

ing short of l\ threat on consideration the Annual Estimates Council officer But on noth­ of next year the will be met from some to give will be asked to restore this any great expenditure one may be tempted permanently.
clear that next ye1u Government ha.ve t" be that ask us 1'HB PRESIDENT: I do not think there is M1y suggestion to include necessary Estimates next year.

All that we are miking now is that the ottice1· be 1·etained to the end of the year owing to arrange- that it will be this officer in the l\fr.

WOOD: I did not-say that anybody has been held up yet.

The officer's ser­ vices ha.ve been available.

coming when he is gone.


The danger is Mr. CRANE : I do not think there is for keeping this oJticer any justification imd I resent this official l'ounding on the Estimates.

keep the officer Lands ,tnd Mines Department operate these matter·s, coaching should be able to do the mechanical of mMking timber for exportation.

with the Fores\, Department with a little must co­ in and a, Surveyor up to The work from the Forest Dep,u·tmcnt ,md Mr. WEBBER: I rise to oppose the in the 011 the Department.
by the Conservator motion.

My benevolent interest is well known.

J take Forest Department intei·est ,t personal in the Department the work it has done, but thii:: appreciate fair with the Colony or with is not phtyiug to cir­ this Council.

It is an endeavour in the cumvent a solemn motion carried Council.

This is not the ti.roe for any ,Lttack The argument put forward of Forests does not appeal to me.
This is a period to mark time and to digest done by the Department reason given for the retention officer is the marking serva.tor spectacles are employed to tell his officers what the timbers Me.

I plead with Govern­ ment not to use its majority to upset the decision what has been The already.

of this The Con-­ of timber.

tlmt he has got-a vote for fo1· his Department.

of the Council.

Bovianders forgets Mr. SEERAM: I aiu opposed to this motion on the ground of the principle 455 Motion 8 JUNE, 1932.
-Asststant Conse1·vator 450 I£ the motion is carried as flouting it must involved.

the decision be characterised of the Council when it was fully represen­ tative.

While the reasons given a,ppear to carry some weight they will be recurring reasons for the retention of the officer.

THE PRESIDENT: I am.

sorry that the hon.

Member thinks this is a,n attempt to flout the Council.

kind and is only to enable the Depart­ .

m.ent to carry on until the end of the year.


It is nothing of the Mr. SEERAM : Is Government going to give an undertaking of the year the services no longer be required that after the end of the officer will ?

Tm: PRESIDENT : In reply to the hon.

Member for Dememrn River I s,tiu I had no idea what would be done next year aud I can give no undertaking.
Mr. ELEAZAR: I think Governmc•nt the whole generally then was whethe1· should go, ,md when Gov­ itself from the good offices i1:, divorcing of the Electives for­ by bringing wa,rd this motion.

Thi:s motion is to a undo what a full House carded afte1· tremendous The amount of deb,tte.

question Department ernment could not help itself that certain officers should go but at lea1:,t they should have six months.
Government before the House now when several of the Elected Members a,nd it says it does not know what is going ·to happen when December comes.

Memben; might be inclined motion if they are told that the officer will be retrenched has brought thiR motion at the end of the year.

are 011 leave to vote for the it decided very great risk- and must accept responsibility in of Forests of Forests concessions that occurs.

It has been is a very real one.


I have that he must have certl1in men that it was information after a long period in the interior we of ruining the which is being pursued is continued you will not see the Department very much longer.

I£ the Conservator considers to carry on the work of the Department and we decide that we know better than he does about his own Department, are running Department for any failure stated that the Conservator agreed to do without thi:; officer.
He has explained given on tlrn spur of the moment and that he now finds he cannot do without him.

The question had to deal with dredging the Potat·o for the operntion of which men were brought from abroad.

It is essential that such men should get lel1ve out of the and unless you have others to Colo11y, t,tke their place the work i:s bound to stagnate.

reg,ud to the value of the work done by at the present time.
I the Department at do not think that is a fair criticism ,t time when we all know that ti-y is suffedng frow the wudJ's ecuuuwic depression and there a.re no buyers because there is no money.

'L'here is a danger that to carry unless the Department on its work it will go back and we shall ultimately ment.

\Ve have a very highly paid Con­ servatot· and if his staff is to be grnatly fot· him.
A point has been made too with regard to the ability of Bovianders others to examine timbeL I do not think that certificates accepted.

A point has been ra.ised with be without ,t Forest Depart­ of these men would be of Forests is enabled every indus­ depleted and there is hardly any use M1·.

AUSTIN: \\Then I c,tmc into the to vote for House this morning I intended the motion but now that Government is urntble post will be ,tbolished it.
year I am afraid I must vote against that the at the end of the to give an undertaking to tell what the names of timbet·s Mr. WEBBER: Wh,tt I said was that had asked this Council to to employ Bovianders the Depat·tu:ient vote money its officers were.

A Boviander certificate for the Assistant give the certificate.

is that cet·tificate given by the men em ployed by the Department but he would identify Conservator who would Any officer can give but the information would not give a the timber .
and its I formed that opinion long Mr. FARRAR: I have always been in favour of the Forest Department retention.

before the Department was established and I have not had m1y reason to change that opinion.

Several Members have hinted that they consider tlmt the Department should but failing I am afraid that if the cheesep,tring 'policy that they want to see it cut down.
be abolished, Mr. WOOD: The sinceritv of Govern­ ment and my sincel'ity gathel', It i; quite clearly bers that bec,LU�P h,ts be�n, as far as I impugr�ed in this matter.

the belief Government is una.ble somewhat of some Mem­ to 457 Jl/ ot·ion 8 JUNE, 1932, -Assistant Conservator 4-58 What tree and he has to ask somebody had the first call on the services a specific the local name of that tree.
I never in­ tended to convey to the Council that the marking of timber was the only work on which this officer was employed.

I think I said was that I always felt that exporters of the Department for that work.

The fact that our staff stands depleted has made it necessary that the Lands and Mines Department should undertake some of that work, and we have arrange­ which are ments with that Department working smoothly and will enable them to do some of that work.
The offi­ cen; of that Department competent to pass timber, be done consistently Forest Department arising has al"isen the future.

it leads to questions on the other side.

That question in the past a,nd it will arise in by other than the are quite but if it is to is this officer next year.

perfectly it may be most no secrefa:; to anybody if I say follows that it will be brought up ask Government to has not been decided of retention but thA policy of next yet.
of the officer with next gi.ve an undertaking that the officer named will not be on the Estimates next year it it will be.

I endea­ therefore voured to make my own position plain : that in my opinion difficult to carry on without not only this year but in futurP years.

That does not mean that Government necessarily going to imist on this officer being employed after this year.
It would be telling that I shall certainly put him on the Estimates That is my opinion, year's Estimates If the question is brought up in connection year's Estimates in a House that is not depleted, do not think the sincerity can be impugned Member for ·western a.n old joke of Bovianders word on whitt timbers that the hon.

Member claims does �xist does not exist and never has existed.

The hon.
The hon.

Member for Demerara ference ed that the retention employing ist to bandage a scratch which could very well be done by a nurse.

What has been by hon.

Members is that the f:mggested or the nm·se should m,tke the dispenser di,tgnosis and the fhll'geon-specialist issue the certificate.

certificate can do it as well or not but whether abroad would accept .it.

else is not whether somebody buyers Rivet· to one point he was inaking in that wiLy.

The hon.
The hon.

Be1·bice gave us piLssing with re­ suggest­ a highly paid surgeon are, but the position of this officer is like of Government The point about the or special­ should so I the Tm, PRESIDENT: There is one point which I should like to emphasise.

The effect of this motion will be that the officer will be unable to leave at the end of July so as to get in before the end of the ye1Lr four months' lea,ve due to him.

He of July.
He of July.

To was to retire at the end enable him to have the leave due to him he would have had to leave the Colony on the li;t MiLy.

There was a good deal of work to be done which it was very essential get done.

All we want is to retain the officer for a few more months to do that work, and during that period the will have the leave he i� entitled far as Government and employment December.

endeavour estimate.
endeavour estimate.

is going to to save this amount out of his is concerned his pay will cease on the 31st The Conservator officer to, but a.s to Mr. CRANE : I think we ought to be told definitely whethei· going to be exc1111cl11cl, be the financial or what is going to position.

the Estima.tes are that l\'Ir.

CRANE: We never suggested to be accepted should be or anybody else who the certificate given by a Boviander agent.
I is not !L recognised that someone belonging to the suggested of Lands and Mines, a Department responsible should do the work of marking timber for exportation.
Government person, with hundreds 1,f trees to the extent that botani­ Mr. ·woOD : \Vhen an expert goes into the forest of a new country for the first time and is dealing species cal expeditions species hitherto is in a position what the out the flora he can determine tree is, but scientific say it is �e cannot by seeing the tree alone from Kew find 50 new unrecorded, to get the flowers if that expert to wot·k name of a particular of position Estim;tes Mr. WOOD : The financial is that tl,e monev will be saved from the existing of the Colony, but under what heads it is impossible exactly to sav at the moment.
J\1Iv own estimates arn u;;_der scrutiny the amount on them.

for roe to try and save THE PRESIDENT: I can give an under.

taking that this item will be saved on the total Estimate, but it is hoped that the 459 Siipplementary Estimate,q 8 JUNE, 1932.

Sn71rll»W CO'nrt 460 Conse1·vator will Department':,; save the whole $1,300 be able to save it on his he can is not known.
estimate, vVhethet· Mr. WEBBER : I move an u.mendment to cover the retention oE Mr. Loekie's ser­ I think vices until the 30th September.

that would do justice to Government and to the officer and enable him to get 90 days leave.

THE PRESIDENT : I don't think that will help the matter The officer is entitled leave.

one way or the other.

to four months' Mr. CRANE: I suggPst giving the officer four months' leave and such time as the Conservator of Forests says it is necessar-y to retain hi'> services.
Mt·.

BRASSINGTON : I understand of Forests to say it is that he should have the services the Conservator essential of the officer until the middle of July.

If he is retained until that date leave will carry him until the middle of November while the proposal money to the end of December.

prnpared the motion but I to vote ag,1inst am not going to split strawH over six weeks.

four months' is to vote I was of Tm; PRESIDENT: 'l'he question If the date is mernly one of convenience.
officer leaves ,1t a date to en:Lblfl hi.m to take his four months before thP encl of December tha,t will be done.

Mr. vVOOD : There ,tre 21 days' passage which do not count for leave, so that will bring it to close on the end of the ye,u·.

Mr. CRANE : I suggest that the motion be amended by substituting the words " for four months and tw1mty-one from the 3bt July, 1932" for tlw words "until 31st December, 1932."

<lap, That, wilh reference to Officer Ail MeFsage No.
14 of the 30th ministering approves the Government's May, 1932, this Council tional items of snµµlementary the year 1931, shown ou the attached• which have not been iuclude•I rnenta.ry E�tima.tes for that, year pas�ed by the Qonncil.

of the addi.

ex�nditure for Schedule, (l<'irst, 81Jcond and Third) in the Snpple.

D1·.

KELLY seconded.

The Council resolved itself mittee to conside1· item.

the schedule into Com-.

item by SUPREME Cou&·r.

Mr. CRANE: I ask Government to be infonua­ in a t1·ial we meet.
There rumour that two last year cost the good enough to supply cert;tin tion to the House, if it is not possible now on the next occasion has been a persistent witnesses Government $500.

Somebody whose it was to dispense business with those witnesses was over for­ when the sessio11 got that they were in Georgetown with the result that $500 had to ht' paid co them.

I would like to know who was and whitt the figure is if it responsible were not $500.
I also ask Government to consider of the Colony that criminal be tried in a single Court instead beforn wlwn t,wo Judges presided and got rid of jurors ,md witnesse8 as eal'ly possible.

whether it is in the best interest cases should of 11s as .

to be : From expenses, me there seems Trrn ATTORNEY-GENERAL supplied information some mistake.
There have been some rather he,tvy witnesses due to cases from the Mazaruni Y.Uebo, but th.e largest witness waiting Cases are arranged and wit­ for heiLl'ing nesses are warned to attend in time for their case.

and Esse­ sum paid to any was $125.

Witnesses thrnugh only ·one Court sitting.

are not kPpt chit>fly THE· PRESIDENT : I am willing to accept that amendment, how it will help the question.

not spent up to the 31st December saved.


but I do not see Anything will be Mr. CRANE : I am satisfied with thP of the Attorney General, but I of the with the accuracy statement am not satisfied informa,tion given to him.

Motion as amended agreed to.

THE CHAIRMAN: Goverru:nent is very over the cost of witnes�es and exercised steps are being taken to reduce it in future.

I think instructions in regard to the matter.

iRsupd have been SuPPLEMEN'rARY EsTnIATEs.


THE COLONIAL SECRETARY: I move the motion :- .alre11dy • .N�t reproduced.

461 Hospital Jt'eel!

Regulationg 8 J·uN£, 1932.

-Committee 462 DEPAR'l'MEN'l' OF AGnICUL'l'URE.

Mr. CRANE: Is there any truth in the tha.t a disease rumoui· into the Colony from Brazil as a result of the policy of allowing cattle to come over the frontier?
has been brought a limited number of Prnfessor DASH (Directo1· of Agl'icul­ ture): It is true that some disease is area, but reported there is nothing th:Lt it is anything new.

None of the animals the coastal belt.


in the Rupununi to indicate has yet reached from THE CHAIRMAN : I understand received that the outbreak is on a ranch in an area south of where cattle had over the Brazilian is now on his information of this disease considernbly been introduced 'l'he District Commissioner way to town and I presume is bringing what information tion is taken to quarnntine p1·event reaching the disease lands.
We had a similar disease last year and on the information it is ·no more serious the coast­ there he ci.n.

Every precau­ animals and border.

we have now.

made as There Government on behalf of can get treat­ of paying patients.

Officers by giving a guarantee 01· their relatives themselves ment in hospital, deduction being guaranteed from their salary.
Regulation 13 permits the Gove1·nor alter the rates charged schedules, exceptional treated rates recommended otherwise ated in the various schedules, the schedules move certain also on special grounds in cases to allow a patient to be at necessary, are enumer­ and when are reached I propose to or thought the fees chargeable in Council in the various in any ward of any amendments.

hospital to Professor DASH seconded.

The Council resolved itself seria­ the regulations into Com­ mittee to consider tim.
Mr. CRANE: The persons mentioned 3 are not quite the same as in regulation those in regulation 4.

I would like to know whether there is any reason for the distinction.

The Council resumed and adjoumed for Di·.

KELLY : The reason is that there the luncheon recess.

has been a certain amount of abuse in giving paupe1· poverty certificates.

means that a large number can only give for poverty certificates cet·tificates patients instead of .

The authorisation HOSPITAL Fr.ES REGULA'J�IONS.


in Dr. KELLY (Surgeon-General): are made gratuitous These regulations 4 (2) of the Public Hospitals who have treatment" of fees cha1·ged treatment Chapter 187.

The main alter­ regulations are the fo1· general and in the schedules.

I beg as to the upon which patients as out or in-patients and the recovery to move that " Regulations terms and conditions may be treated any public hospital, of expenses from pe1·sons improperly received be approved.
unde1· section Ordinance, ations to the existing inclusion special Otherwise first, the Immigration Senior Immigration Amsterdam and Suddie and persons specially issue pauper ifl an amendment and Sanitary persons ficates as it is not considered that they should issue them.

The next main change is in regulation Regulation Town Overseers from the list of to issue poverty 3 of Agent General and the omitting Inspectors certi­ necessary the main amendments 4 certificates.
of the inclusion in regulation by the Govemor to authorised authorised 12 in respect Agents in New consist, medical Mr. CRANE: I don't quite understand concerned as of a In regulation of a pauper patient 4 Judges Why patient?

Members of the Execu­ Council are 3. a1·e the distinction.

of the Supreme Coui·t are included.

should a Judge not be equally in a certificate poverty tive Council or Legislative similal'ly Registered included classes both and others excluded.
me that both ce1·tificates by the same class of individuals.

the Mayors of Georgetown Amsterdam ficates under regulation omitted from regulation Medical Practitioners in both.

I don't see why certain of persons should be included in It seems to should be given and New to give certi­ are not qualified Even 3.

Dr. KELLY: There is no outstanding reason why a difference is made in the to issue pauper and persons authorised poverty certificates.
In practice number of persons whose names the regulations never all.

We have followed a large in appea1· at the practically issue certificates · 463 llospital Pees Regulations8 Ju10J, 1932� -Committee 464 which exist now, and there regulations might have been some reason why the differentiation was made.

The policy is rather to restrict authorised because these certificates are given too freely.
experience the number .of persons to give pauper certificates we know by Surgeon that he is the owner of in the Colony of property immilvable the value c>f 11ot less than five dollars may guarantee by any hos pit al ex'!Jenses another pe1s.on who requires treatmeut al.

at a public hospi1 the payment of to be incurred hundred (e)Any person who satisfies the Resident Mr. CRANE: For the convenience of indicated the public the persons tion 4 are the proper persons to issue a certificate.
of inconvenienc certificates.

There have been complaints e to people in 'obtaining in regula­ to include Government lishment lishment.

Mr. SEERAM: ·1 appeal to Government in the special conditions to Officers on the Fixed Estab­ officers not on the Fixed Estab­ and in the case of termination Dr. KELLY : Wlmt iR likely to happen would and give they could is that officers with large families be most quick to come forward which eventually a guarantee not fulfil, of their services loss.
This particular put up at the instance Treasurer.

the guarantee should on the Fixed Establishment difficulty the Unfixed Establishment He deliberately relate of the Colonial that specified only to officers knowing the with officers on that might iirise Government would suffer recommendation was Mr. 'SEERAM: With one class of meted out of treatment employee to imother would be conspicuous.
depriv�d it is creating n, distinction tlmt THE CHAIRMAN : There is a difference 4. for certi� certify a pauper patient or not.

A different to are able to by the people in regulation patients whether applicants and a poverty People who are authorised are dealt with as poverty and those are people who should between patient.

certify pauper ascertain ficates are paupers class of persons patients be certified I see no reason why a Judge should neces­ a pauper patient.
He would sarily into not lmve the possibility of enquiring to and the same thing applies the matter, Members of the Executive Council.

It seems to me that a pauper case requires far more investigation and a larger number of people certify poverty patients than pauper patients.

There is no doubt convenience in the must differentiation have been seen when the lists were formed.

I think the hon.

Member will find that there is some justification for it.
tmd that differentiation case than a poverty THE CHAIRMAN : I think the hon.

mies his very widely, Membel"s point is met by (3).

I know that the Surgeon-General discretion and I cannot that a member of the Civil Service imagine who is not on the Fixed E�tablishment of and applies either himself ot· his family would be turned away bec:iuse he could not give a guiirantee.
for admission to hospit:Ll Dr. SINGH: The names mentioned in 3 are those of people who regulation specir1lly and are the best judges, in regulation mentioned come in contact 4 do not.

with the people whereas those THE CHAIRMAN : That is exactly my point.

Regulation 9-Hours of attendance.

Dr. KELLY : I move that the words " Surgeoti-General "Re�ident Surgeon."

" be substituted for Question put, and agreed to.

Regulation 12 ( 1 governing treatment )-General of paying patients.
conditions should not be restt·icted to Mr. CRANE: I agree with the hon.

An that the in a public Member for Eastern Demera.ra regulation officers on the Fixed Establishment.

to treatment officer is entitled institution as any person who is not on the Fixed Estiiblishment.

legislation the man -off the Fixed Establishment going to take advantage is a reason why an amendment made.

I formally "On the Fixed Establii;hment" is that when the explanation move that the words of it.

The excuse be deleted.


This is class should be is Mr. CRANE:, I move an addition Mr. SEAFORD: If this privilege is to to • be extended why i;hould it be extended only this regulation to read :- 465 Hospital Fees Regulations 8 JUNE, 1932.

-Committee466 for the benefit of servants of Government?

If firms in Water Street are prepared give a guarantee why make a distinction?

to Mr. DIAS: The hon.

Member seems to be under some misapprehension.


in Water Street would come under (1) (b), to anybody.· whi_ch applies People Mr. SEAFORD : I admit that, but I see no reason for any distinction a Governm�nt servant not a Government and anyone who is servant.

between call for by signing Mr. DIAS: People in.

any part of the of the provision to any hospital.


An officer on the can be his own a form by which the Colony can by satisfying (1)(b) gain admission When it comes to Public Officers the idPa was to let a man be ii surety for himself.

All the other requirements the pay­ ment of money in advance or the produc­ tion of a guarantee.

Fixed Establishment guarantor Colonial T1·easurei· from his salary every month.

If he becomes guaranto1· Treasurer can make the There is a distinction same way.
case of an officer who is not on the Fixed Establishment Service at any time and no guarantee would avail Govemment anything.

In the case of an officer on the Fixed Establish­ ment his salary, sion are a guarantee for somebody else the in the in the can make a deduction in that he might quit the lump sum bonus and pen­ for his liability.

deductions Mr. CRANE: If the1·e is a loss once in a way let it fall on the Civil Service.

themselves.
themselves.

the to make deductions Trea,mrer) Treasurer Mr. McDA YID (Coloni,Ll : This is merely an attempt to allow Gov­ ernment Officers to guarantee It is to permit an officer to authorise Colonial from his salary.

The T1·easurer usually deals with officers on the Fixed Establish­ ment and that is why it is rPstricted officers on the Fixed Establishment.
not intended at the expense authorise the and prevent to furnish Treasurer the officer from going outside to benefit one class of otiice1· of the other but merely to guarantees.

to It is to make deductions Govern­ it.

When an he gets it but he · This security.

that principle.
that principle.

do so on his own showing because ment has security against officer is not on the Fixed Establishment and asks for an advance has to give collateral regulation is only extending With .. regard to the reference Street, arrangements treated ments to deduct the cost of such treat­ ment from his salary monthly in exactly the same way.
to Water I take it that if any firm makes it would make arrange­ for one of its officers to be in hospital with Mr. CRANE : I am not concerned but with one class the financial expediency of officers being entitled which is denied another class.

If an officer hiLs need he should be entitled ation.

for treatment to the same consider­ in hospital to consideration It applies bill.
There is another usually to is in the Dr. KELLY : This regulation It does not who come under the 25 type of patient nature of an experiment.

relate to patients cents rate.

That pays or gives a guarantee.

the class of officials who go into the 50 cents ward and in a great number of cases the $1.50 ward.

These people run up a considerable aspect when I say this regulation is in the 1mture of an experiment.
In quite a few instances patients going into the hospital, knowing that they can get treatment tick," would go into a ward which their social permit.

The result would be that employ­ ees who cleady on their salary should elect to go into i� ward commensura,te with that salary by going into a more expensive and ward would run up big bills, with the large number of people taking of it there would be heavy advantage accounting to be done.
This refers to the type of officials who mostly go into the $1.50 ward.

If the scope of the regula­ tion is very much widened I see a large amount of accounting Trnasury thing to go too fa1·.

and by the Hospital and I do not think it is a wise do not " on or financial circumstances THg CHAIRMAN : The position is that we are constantly money to Civil Servants poses ...
When an otlice1· on the Fixed Establishment asked to advance pur­ for various asks for an adva,nce he can Mr. CRANE: This is intended for the it is class People will say we are making big bug, not the small bug, and legishition.

This applies to the laws to suit ourselves.

small class of privileged who pe1·sons ought to save money because they earn more .

than the poor man does.

There 467 Hospital Fees Regi�lations 8 JUNE, 1932.


-Committee 468 should be no restriction "diffi­ The accounting should be general.

culty is not a matter with which we are concerned.

and the provision to withdraw it.

It will work a THE CHAIRMAN: Government is not wedded to this regulation and willing hardship Service on the Fixed Establishment.

Government very deserving was only trying to assist a members of the Civil on certain I am quite class.
Mr. CRANE: I am not opposed to it it to those on the but opposed to limiting Fixed.

Establishment.

THE CHAIRMAN : I propose to put the hon.

Member's amendment.

of public money.

with.

In this particular it is its own money case Government is in a This is surely a busi ernment is the custodian When a firm in Water Street guarantees one of its employees it is dealing if an official not on the Fixed Establish­ ment is in default position.

different ness matter and we have some guarantee.


With the ordinary have no guarantee, position munity and can get a guarantee some person.

I am sure that an officer not on the Fixed Establishment would in getting have no difficulty a personal the Resident �urgeon, guarantee to satisfy but in any difficulty he is in no worse posi­ tion than other member·s I think it would be inflicting ship on officers if the regulation eliminated.
monthly servant we and he is in the same a great hard­ is as any other member of the com­ of the public.

signed by Mr. WEBBER: To do half of the Depart­ Take the is better than to do the._ Service justice entire Service an injustice.

senior officers of the Transport ment who for good reason have not been placed on the Fixed Establishment.
ernment never dismisses status without three months' salary, that im officer of that standing will run up such 11 tremendous bill in hospital as to be beyond any ex gratia gratuity.

What is of a subordimLte?

the alternative If you do not accept him as a paying patient are you going to accept him any man of that like of something and I cannot imagine as a pauper?

a gratuity Gov­ THE CHAIRMAN : In that case he comes under (b ).
Mr. GONSALVES: The smaller man is an asset to the State and Government should help him.

THE CHAIRMAN : I would like to another I think there like to considet· whether to meet hon.

Members because is a great deal to.

be said for their argu­ ment:,;.

I should we cannot introduce sub-clause meet officers not on the Fixed Establish­ ment.

I think hon.

Membe1·s ciate that so far as Government is con­ cerne<l guarantee Fixed Establishment and one who is not.
I think the point can be met and will defer the regulation there is a very great difference in the of payment by an officer on the for that purpose.

will appre­ this as class legislation because Mr. WEBBER: The proper person for is his him to get to sign the guarantee These officers roust employer.

get their I do not from Government.

guarantee describe l can see a glimmer of Government's reason for excluding Service, ideas of Government's urge that this privilege to the junior ranks of the Service.
Limit a man to his class and station but give him everything misfortune.

.

the lower ranks of the but it does not accord with our conception.

should be extended you possibly can in his We THE CHAIRMAN : Government en­ with the views expressed which can be granted to sympathises tirely that any privilege one class of the Service to another.

privilege, This is not a question of case Gov- but in this particular should be granted Regulation deferred accordingly.
Schedule for general lic hospitals tion provided.
1-Rates to be charged daily paying patients treated in pub­ according to the accorumoda­ Dr. KELLY : I move the inserti on of a new item, the object of which is to pre­ vent the hospital sometimes or advice:- staff from being used by people who seek treatment officer in charge of the ouL-patients' shall be required to produce a to consult a member other than the 9, Any person desiring of t.he staff of aoy hospital medical department recommendation practitioner of a district consultation $1 to $5 according unless the latter either or from a wedical or Government shall be charged r,rom a private medical officer in cha.rg� dispensary.
Such for at the to the means of ,t-he p!itient, produces to the in addition rate of 469 Hospital Fees Regnlatimi.s 8 JUNE, 1932.

-Committee 470 i n a certificate recommenria: pa.uperi�m son -is ac�mir,t consultation or form.

If the per­ ns a re�ult of the the u bove fee shall be waived.

,ed to bospir.al 011 the approved of poverty Mr. WEBBER : I appreciate but I cannot understand, vation, to go there and pay $1 or $5 for a consul­ tation, told to bring a certificate officer.
why I should be driven out and from a medical this inno­ if I want are there staff of the hospital work and the hospital Dr. KELLY : The point is that the for is not to compete with private practi­ The hospital medical institution intended exists for the treat.

tioners.

ment of in and out-patients and the medical staff are not there for general consultation titioner patient ber of the staff of the hospital send a letter.

Incidentally, goes to revenue.

is not intended general him to do so.


this money A member of the staff by the to be consulted wants purposes.

has a pa,tient Tf a medical prac­ and wishes that public unless a practitioner to get further advice from a mem­ he should Mr. WEBBER: I do not see why I should be compelled to the hospital.

That is my objection.

to take a certificate underlying and it might happen fot· the st,Lff to be worried Dr. KELLY : The principle it is meant for the general public.
It is not intenclt·d by people from outsi<le, tlrnt if a man i:-; very popular we would have a lot of his time taken up with con­ At present sultation.

the public consult and there is no authorisation thing from them.

Another reason for getting is that it would lessen the number of people who go to the hospital.

a good number of of the hospital surgeons to get any­ a letter treat­ diseases to establish is clmrging too much for its ser­ are becom­ vices.
X-Ray examinations methods of ing one of the cardinal and we want, if discovering up-to-date possible, ment outside the hospital.

It is not practitioner for a private possible stal X-Ray mechanism in his own surge1·y and the public ought to have the services of the hospital being a public Department to keep it as a money-making concern but offer the m�1ximum the public.

I suggest charges be held over for consideration for that purpose.

that some of these and that this schedule terms.


It we ought not benefit it can afford to on reasonable be reduced to in­ Mr. WEBBER: The fees are too much on the high side and I think they should not begin higher than $2.50 or $3.

and any­ pays half of these fees.

Dr. KELLY: I don't think these fees are too high.

90 per cent.

of X-Ray work is done on hospital patients oue iu hospital Films are $1 and $2 apiece, the cost of chemicals, things of that kind.
In London the charge for an X-Ray examination and not Jess than two guineas.

occasiorn1lly and wants an X-Ray photograph his hody.

a person goes to the hospital and there is light and is three guineas electric It is only taken of THE CHAIRMAN: I will consult the and it on the i;checlule Surgeon-General will be held over.

Schedule to certain employees.


VI.-Special Government mtes applicable Officers and other Dr. KELLY: I move tha,t this schedule THE CHAIRMAN : We are all agreed on payment of tt fee and consult officer he wants, but we can­ th,Lt anybody should be able to go to the hospital any medical not have a person on IL pauper or poverty certificate examined will be deferred by a specialist.

fo1'-further claiming the right to be The schedule consideration.
the word be amended by substituting " Officers " for the words " Medical ment Staffs " in the first line of paragraph 2 ( 1) " including same line and at the end of the third line of paragraph and by the adcli tion of the words Alms House" at the end of�he Depart­ 2 (2).

Schedule deferred accordingly.

THE CHAIRMAN : I think Medical Schedule II r-Rates to be charged for X-Ray examination ment.

and .

electrical treiLt­ Officers and the Sanitary some privilege schedule will be held over.
Staff should have at the hospital.

The Mr. CRANE: There is a persistent 'rhe Council resumed �tnd adjourned until complaint that the X-Ray Department Tuesday, 14th June, at 11 o'clock.