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]-.J.I;; DECEMBER 14, 1000 PRIVILEGE-HEPRESENTATION OF QUEnEG EAST AND OIr"W.I.

'fhe right hun.

l\rl".

C,\)IrllELT., tl\{' \Vilfrid L'luricr) statt:d 'Minister (Sir First ]10 one y,~t had :lsl;:o(} to the HOllf'.ll that !tim to l'l'i'izil either of his sents.

I would [:kc to n~k if, sillcc he mude that statement " allY olle has asked him to resign?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

~"l'.

Speaker, so far lIoiJody hus asked me to re sign.

No.

;I is np :1\1(1 ('\'f'~.


\\Ilult: fli"lld ,:!clleral bJitlg sill~ulnr .Fol'f.

'ign Oflice the ,,:onH,thiu.!!

th~ consul general It "i1h this tran,~lletion a (·"11:"1115 ti<,\·lll:lll, nwl to, bared fnet {h'~patch, th:lt list, t(l come and see him without til,' to in ,diicial in ('''"Il,'di<Jil !

""kine:: I like fift:r per cent 01 l!1:,1 lli:lt tilt' vice-cun!

'iuls in the particular case :1]'" rd,·rred at Ber lit Leipsic lill i~ I~;lr,," von 'l'nuclmlitz, Now, W·C :ll'C nc ('1I~t.
'JlIl'd to 'I~~' It uur pride 01 birth ulld Ollt' dignity ;l.~ ~:'llll'li.I~I(,:'\ n~ry ~lroJlgly the ~Ol'elllOst 11OSi- ,occu.PY III ~he eUl.lIl,cl.l~, ?,f t~1C :~I.I- tJ.U."

~\e h,.,lI I,ll".

dr<llll:ltlc recltal-- :\11'.

SPEAKER.

l':llll YOll Schwu1.w('h IIIH.I :1 C'alladinn state, yer~' fn:qncntly in Canada \\L: II ,uII1 also to nsecl:t W.\YS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.

Hon.
Hon.

W. S, FlJ~LDING (Minister of Fin- little '\hlle ,1 ... 0 ,I \ltVI HlItlce of Ways and Means for raising till' Illoved that the House flO into Com nll.ce) ~ I I to .

.

it thc tahle of the House this wP-I'k, CDIHHla.

!

'ihould he usc T11C hOll.

~(lnl('.

..'!~'-CII )If.

BURR,:,:LL.

1~ budget which, not ,l!euth.

:lII1.1ll has ll.said: At no privilege at this tilile to discuss a qu(>.,,- tion.

Supply to be gwuted to His .

'Majl'sty, Hl?

the last se3sion of parlillment, )fl'.


Srcake'l", circumstances obliged me to to ;';Uhlllit tl in all resp~cls a stronger word, was not ,!hcn I ask the pl"lVl· very cheerful one.

Perhaps it was beCllUSQ 1\Iini.

"b~rs of Finance everywhere about that I was Just g'?wg t?

rt:Jl111rk tha,t we le'!e, cir time Jo.UlHI 1i:lIl a very dra.matlC roclta,l of lin cJllsode to liS ~he th:lt occurrcd III it eUlllstnllces, olh('[ dav b,'( the Pl'lnJe,MlIll."t('r.
untl,wl.llC.h was my thirteenth budget and good luck L(':ll"s Oil ,thiS very subject: becllilsc 1f ,It, IS could hardly be hoped for at such a time.

n lill~ agreeable ILl:!

thc out be to he protected oal,e.r's dozen under happier conditions lim!

!I:,V'> just as gOO(!

n right the to oomc ,hack ollce more to the old fllmilim III story of general employment and prosper- .i:U\'('l"lllll('nt will liberal ;;ur increasing revenues, ous trade, plu", and generous appropriations ro,' the jollbJic service.
theI 'fhe last fiscul yenr-IOOS-O-as we call tilIng to he p~otectcd by.

the ~l:ltlsh However trust look IIlto till;; matter.

.IUDlTOll GENEllAL'S REPOllT.

tlllllk C!\llatllt\n elhzCHS to me in strenuous it WfiS beclluse :11\1' othcr ~Orel!

!n C.oull1n'" that may he, to !\Ir n, L, BOUDhN, themselvcs Perhaps I would lIsk the is it round 1Il Rome, TI!f, able l'rill\1' '\filli~kr w!ten we Illfly expect ~1'(·"n,J vl,]unle of H,,!,corl.

1,l;u'I'oI Oil ii 11I,s"ilole.


HI,]\, I,r·fure the Christmas vaclliioll, It is dl'sirllhle thnt ill ordN thllt :\11', FIELDING.

Thf' mattcr was hl'ou;.dlt in a mf'ctil\~ of Ill' ('OJllltli1tec recently when the Auditol' Grn- l'ra!

was nl'l'sent, and he toll) did lillt it diU'" it, 'I"a<:.

('''I!!.]

he orucllreJ!

it 111t·l!lIf('\".~ of IlIilk,'.

thin!

;; \)('fore the rccess, At thC'lI nrrnll!

!Nl if ~rl"llld he imtlledi!lt,.

'I~· !


;('nt 1 lll\l nfl'llid that is nhout the Puhlic thHt t.hc case of the autumn of almost world-wide, it mav he avail· pression ill the Audito!"

Gellel'tll's -the fIscal year ended on the 31st siun which WfiS ill \l-hich, :'it)uth of us, becume a financial panic, the Pnhlic Accounts I would have Lern too much to expC'ct IlS that he' Ellllll.~ial depression.
We dill feci it :Mareh ]:,st, was c{)l"tainly Ilot a very good year fOI There had been a finallcial de llJ07, a de pres l'lnd the republic to thQ It that \\·I~ eould escape entirely the efiects of that ill it would he possihle to pro- Can/Ida 10 some rxlcllt-llappily to a 11l1Ic11 t.han in the ease of 0111' \t-;;s exl.ent l1f'igh· to t.h(' south, but, still wc did ('x· blJUl'ii It it to .~Olll(' exkllt in Cal:nda, periC'llc., 1l('.~lll1 re,·Cl1lIC5 ;'1 thc closing" period of thtl fiscal yt'fir, but the earlier IHlft of the Y(':lI' was Olle of such the whole.
the ,·('ry ex('clled Olle; it was a rccol',j Yl'ar.

But.

when l' sl'o"I,1 I,e s"nl we camc to the new fisC';·l1 year br;.

:illninJ,1 I .

I I 1000 ;.;0'0.

a ye,lr w IIC I t-wlNl on the 31st March In"t. we fOl\llll seriously lhat our previou!I :I[ff'c!ed.

year, that which we call a record year, ~Cpl"'lwntcd the great sum of $%,05-1,50I),8J.

But, when wc cnllle to close the year 1008-'.)


\\c found that we had receive:l a total rev- Illy" rCflu('st the volnllle l,efOlre rec('ss, eopil's of to all tIll' Ac('ollnt~ ('om· the bc;;t rc\'ellu~s were The revenue fol' i:"VtmUfl pl"ovetl iIHIf'ed, thnt the vululllc is 110t to ~ho\V its effect f A '1 prJ, vel'y the l1pun Ollt' to l)e :l 1,.

":l;,h 111('II)I,rl' of lhc HOllSC 0>; well as to on t e 'adl 1lII'IlI!>(lr uf tlte Public Accounts COIll- !Iililet'.

\Ir.

FIELDING, The rCtlllesf.


eDme from lilt, Puhlic ,\CCOlllltS Commilh'e, but I shall if< requl'stetl ~t'f' Itl ,,{'t' that all the members receive it.

461 the Auditor General that L '·"rv lllHCh fC'!

!n:t l"'i,,rl~ Ihf' House, 'I ('I'() .

'.

r. 1 · , .

(':111 do undt'r the cirClI!llstlltlCeS, though !

::reat prosperity that, Ull 'J'I"10T> , I \ ' , l. to , r!

; it fi \\ I' 0 h ~- .

1447 COMMONS ====C_-_·_··_- .------..---- --- ------- ------------ enue of only $85,003.404.35.
1'here was thu'9 lion of dollars greater than my estimate.

s declille in the year's revenue of $10,961,- The c:trencliture chargeable to income was 101.46. or nearly $lI,OOO.OOO.

or to put it in 58-1.064.2...."2.38.

This was over $1,000,000 in I estimated the Sur.

another form.

the falling off in the revenue excess -of Illy estimate.

amounted to Jl~ per cent.

The revenue for pIns at $1.500.000.

The actual surplus was the year was a little more than half a mil·' t.l,02!'l,17UI7.
1448 YEAR 19l'l3-1900-CONSoLlDATlm FUND.

• Actual Estimated ll\\{l~ct ~1"l"''CJ.. Api'll :..'lJ, l!JO!I.

Greater than Hijlilll:\te.

LN.

thal\ Elltiln:\te.

----------------$--,-,,_ --S-"cl: - -$ Ct..-l.;-$~ Rcvl'nllt•.

_. EXpC-nditure .. Snfphll............. .

.. ••...•...••.. .. ......• ..... 85,093.~04 35 8".OO~.2:t!

33 1.029,171 !Ii 8~,500,UOO 00 ~.111.10.000 QO 1,000,(;00 00 [,!13,-lO.f 35 I 1,OO·I.23::?

~ ~ 4if'.R2S 03 .. ..


In cus- lowing departments: come............ .. Interest on public debt.. .. .. .. .. MiS("elll\lI(,()u~.

.

.

.

• .

.

".

.. ~e:lll nnd I·n·er sernC"e... .. A statement {)f the sources of {)ur revenue lo\"('r the expenditure of the previous year.

will be interesting for the moment.

as show· These increASes were principally in the fol.

ing wllt'I"Cili the failure took place.

t<.Jn5 there was a decrease {)f $10,130.474.80.

Pllblic works chorgeable to in.


nnd in excise the.re was 3 decrease (If $844,· 383.66.

The p<>st {)flice continued its career of prosperity and had an increase of $293.· Ci,·i.'

:;o~·e1"llIncllt.. .. 737 07 When ()ther departments fail some· Legl!<J:ltlon.. .. wh~t 'we fire always able to turn to t-he post office ond note the happy change that has In f{)rmer years there was 1 ~st ('~ce .... :.

.. taken place.

limited accommodat.i{)n amI high postage.


heavy deficit-so In recent years there is cheaper postage.

more gener{)us accommo- lialion and alwnys R liberal surplus.

case of the Dominion lands we had an in.

re\'enue ~f $269.634.73.

Miscel.

crease of l:~ne<:lus revenues ~!)3,703.97.

~md railways showed a falling of 1'1 ff le () cou~se.

Wfl~ m cust{)~us: '.!

'.here Wtls.

a n 111&::: off 1lI.

e~cl.se nnd dlmll1lshed b~ls~ncss IN\ expenditure to 0 dlflllntshed i~a~e.
011 the rl1!I\\RYS, nnd $84.0642.12.38 m c<lllseqllence dlmullshed receipts.

$3,578.85707 630.987 35 1,19-1.819 (5 392,71831) 626.IM -14 ~20.583 57 .. S86.45G G6 flte Item With refe~ence to CIVJ!

govern· Illent was pnrtly an IOcreas~ and partly a rearrangement ~f .charges whIch ~vere trans· In the !erred to.

the CI:V11 go\'ern~lcnt.

Ite!n.

The lIlcrense m the 1tem of leglsla~lOn mclud.ed the exp~nses.of a geneml 71ectlOn.
The m· lIllscellnncous Included n pTJ.lnt 300;000 to the 1l1l.t.Uellelcls C0l.llmlsslon cllief decline of and n ".rtmt of $100.000 for t!le rchef of the Our revenue being $85.093,404.35 and our chargE'able to income being left a surplus of $1029.

• Coming' now to the question of capital =o;====p= -= and special charges for the yenr 1008·9 we showed nn increase of crea~e HI snffc!

"f'rs hy the eflrlh(lUnke 111 ltnly.

SOURCES OF REVENUE.

f $643408 77 , .

.

.

17Ul7. '

.. ..

I'}' it .. 0 • f , Amount.


I II C1"'"l\l\(l. WQ7·8.

DI"Cl...a~.

1!.I07oli.

--_._- ------1---- N"lltional finl'} thp.y were ns follows: CAPr£J\L AND SPI~CI"\J.. CHARGES AND INCIl.EASJ~ OF DEBT 19()8.9.

1'1":I11Scontim'ntill rail· S cbl.

g ctll.

,- '13'" - C u.~tl'm/l "'''.

I-I '131 -,-,.

0" " - c.XCI$l;' .

• • .

• .

• • • • ' I i.~III.r.23 !L1 2!

'l3.737 07 PUflt ulfiCf' , " ij34 ~3 ,- 2 ,~.~ ""-I 0-1 I- - - " L'UlnllllOIl .m' 110.
..lo.~ Rnilway•.. "IH.~~Il.IS7-13 li-l:\.

;08i7 MillCellllflt'O\l.!f.

-I.2'Jl;,2:.

::.Hll 93,itlJ!I1........... Wily .

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

• .

.

.

.

.

.

.

• .$21.892.35123 G.~2.,7g1 00 OUOlleC lJritl"c.. .. .. ..

I' .,~ OS" ~" -, ~1l\ WO)'!

'I c~p, :l ...

,.:oJ.

~, ~ •• .. .. •• 1873.'."

, , (.

.000 1 ;,1110."

CIlIll a •. "

...•• " • .. .. -'7 ,., ,.

Illbhc Works l"l\llitol... 2.832.29529 .. ..•.

• • • • • • • • · n_ · · T .

, -._ , '''~1~11.1ll0n ~.

"II(!l C:JIl1 "l .


• • • • • • ~llhtll\ cOlllml.. .. .... 8 '0 ,,,.\ '~,' ........., IH I ..~ G'i .oX' 1,.-13.071 M ,.>.>0' .1 .... - • • • .

• .. .. ct.>.

~' .. .. .. -I I I 'O I ' 85,O:rJ.4l).l 35 ~[)i .165 IT I1.1118.2m 23 1- - - -1 - !

I · _657.lf>577 NEot t1t.

'CI"(!aet> ••••••••.•••• 1O.00I,lut 46 Of n. dl':::n'MC ll{ II' 4 p. C. IIJf oolllllarOO with 190j-8.

Coming now to the expenditure.

we find that year lOO8·!).

cllargenble to income, was $84.064, 23~.38.


This was an incrense of $7,422,780.79 the totnl expenditure the for MI'.

FIELDING.

'robl capital expenditure ... $12,593.1" 97 To these mus~ be special chnrges added the following Railwoy snb!>illies.

.

.

.

• • .

.

.

J\ouuties.. .

.

.. Chnl"ses of lllanDsemcnt IO:ln aOo .. COllnt Various t!

'ousfen .

.

$1.785.887 S9 2.-167.306 95 1.8M.4SS oil 221~311 50 Totnl.. .. ... •.

.. .. .

.

.

.
.. .. .

.

.

.

$48.9~.161 22 1449 DECEMBER I., 1909 1460 Deductina from this the Surplus of.•••• , $1,029,171 97 •• 1,922.625 20 SinkinR' fund... .• •• Refunds.. 1.~ 72 .. 2,952,7'1 89 Increue of debt.. •• •• ... • .$405.981.

'19 SS That was the largest lhcreaae of debt lila" haa taken place in any year since I bave had the honour of dealing with the finances of the country.

I had estimated that the net debt would be increased dur iJlg the year by $16,000,000; the actual in· The Transconti.
crease was $45,969.419.

Dental railway and the Quebec bridK8 re.

pl'eaent of this debt $31,317,132.28.

The re mainder of the increase of the debt wu caused by other expenditures on capital In former yean we md special account.

had been able to provide for moat e:z:pen· ditures of that kind out of our income.

but lut year, with a falling off of $11,000.000 tn our revenue, it was Dot possible to provide for these without 80me addition to the pub-.

He debt.
He debt.

Coming now to the current fiscal year I am glad to be able to have a 1909-10, more cheerful story to tell.

There ale still three and a half months of the year to run and the boob of account do not close until some considerable time after the end of the it is difficult to malte fiscal year, so that more than an approximate estimate at the It.

is, however, gratifying to present stage.

us all to know that the unfavourable con· dit10ns of the former year hllVe passed away.
There haa been a very ~atifying recovery; we have been blessed wlth abun· dant harvests; in aIm08t every department of labour in which our people are engaged there has been increased activity; we have recovered the 10lt KJ'ound in our revenue and we.

are now movinl forward to even higher records.

The revenue for 1909-1~ that is the current year-to December 1, was $64.656.509.92, which represents an in· crease over the revenue for the correapond· ing period of the previoul ye8.1' of $9,Ml, in eight.
months we have 282.75.

Thus gained nine and a half million dollara of revenue over the figures of the correspond· ing period of the past.

year, which repre sents an increase of about $1,200.000 per four month.

months of the previous year amounted to If we assume that we sball $29,9'18,177.18.

receive for the rem&i.nder of thia year the same amount as we received during the corresponding period of last year this will make our the entire current year $94,634,687.10.
But we may reasonably assume that there will be some further in crease during these remaining four ~onths, the amount of ~hat lDcre&Se just what a point upo~ WhlC~ I wou!d may be is some cautlon.

Hltherto speak with 10 our comparisons between the present year and the next proceding year we have The revenue for revenue for the last of the this figures comparing time last year observed during the been to-day with the lea.

period of a year ago, bu~ Ilbout the business began to improve.
The last months of the preceding fiscll.1 year were monthe showing some imDrovement, and therefore we can Dot apect that during the rem&iniDJi( four montha (or ratber three and a half monthe) of the year, there will be as rapid increase &8 we have eight montbe.

At all events there will undoubt,.

edly be some increase.


For the remaining period of the year, up to the 31at Marcb being four months aJ in the figures I PJ'& sent and about ~e and a half moniJq actually from to-day-I propose to allow for an increase of $2,808.000.

On that basis our revenue for the current year will ap pro::r:imate $97.500,000.

or nearly one and a half million dollars better than the record year of 1907-8. think my estimate is a safe one.
n may be too conservative; it is quite possible that during the remaining four months of the year we shall make & I ventured to greater anticipate.

It is quite possible that we shall come near the one hundred million dollar mark during the present year, hut I do not think it is safe to estimate quite that at present.
increase than that I Coming now to the question of our u· penditure during the current year; it will be remembered that in view of the f&lling off in our revenue and the general check that had occurred in the bUllin~s of the at country, lut Bession of parlia ment we severely pruned our estlDlatee and appropriations, and many meritorious works which we would gladly have dealt with under more favourable conditiona had to be laid aside.

the Our e::r:penditure on consolidated fund for the year 19(6.9 was.
little over $84.000,000.

I estimate that in the current year the expenditure chargeable to income will not e::r:ceed $81,000,000.

That is to say, we shall have a reduction of expenditure charge.

able to income in the present year of $3, 000,000 u compared with the figures of the preceding year.

And, 80, &8 re8pecta the finances of thil year the dominant note of the budget must be in the first place a laTge increase in revenue and in the see.

ond place a very substantial reduction in expenditure.
I estimate that.

With • revenue of $97,500,000.

which lUI I have stated is on a conservative hasis, and an e:z:penditure chargeable to income of there will be $81 000,000, a baIance this year, by way of surplus, amounting to Ilirleen and a half million dollars.

shall not.

he surprised if the expenditure proves to be a little les8 and somewhat more, which, of the revenue course.

would give us a somewhat.

laTger sUTplua.

Now.


we come to the question of the capital and special expenditure during the I 1451 COMMONS 1452 current yenr.

Thcre was voted by parlia ment for capital services during this year $30,484,739.54, and the corresponding appro priation for the prcceding year 19()8..9 was, $~3,372,488.33.

This shows It very large re duction in our appropriations.

Of the cap ital appropriation for the current year lOOl).
10 the sum of $ro,ooo,ooo was assigned to the National Transcontinental railway, and we have reason to believe that that amount will aU be spent or substantially 80.

Of the balance of appropriations of that class is expected that namely, $10,484,739.54, probably $10,000,000 will be spent.

We must then add railway subsidies, bounties, and other special charges which I estimate at.

$5,500,000.

it the year would amount Thus, the totul capital and special charges for to $35,500,000.
'fhe estimated reduction on consolidated fund expenditure is $3,064,232; the estimat ed reduction on capital and special expen d:ture is $13,422,161, so that our total ex penditure of this year as compared with the expenditure of the previous year vfill show a reduction of $16,486,393.

8inkin~ funds, this will The capital and special expenditure of the to $~,OOO,OOO.

year will probably amount If we deduct from this our surplus of $16, $1,250,000, 500,000 and making $17,750,000, represent.
an increase of debt at the close of this current if my estimate is coned, of $17,750.

year, 000.

This will be $2,250,000 less than our expenditure on, rail way.

Muy I repeat here a remark I made in the last budget speech I had the honour til deliver, as indicating the financial policy which we hoped to pursue during the year.
I then said: the' Transcontinental We think that our aim .ought to be-and we shall endeavour to" accomplish it as far as possible-to Ilrovitle out of our revenue aU the for during the year now oppning- ordinary expenditure and for a considerable part of our capital expenditures, if posl;ible even for all of them.

There is one work as to tlla wisdom of borrowinK for which there cl\n be 110 question, and that is the Transcon ~inental raillny.
If .we can succeed in bep Illg down our borro";\'m~ for new work durin~ the coming year to the sum which we wish to expl'nd 011 the 'l'ranscontinental railway, I am sure we shall have a. very Rood.

statement to I do not know that we can accom I,r~ellt.

plisla thi,.

but: it i,'to be our aim and 1 am sure that if for the work: of the y~r We have to borrow aoy sum in excess of that required for the Transcontinental railway it will not be very large.
I am glad to be able to say that the aim which we then set forth has been renched.

We shall provide.

as we believe, because we are dealing with a year not yet· closed, out of our income for all the ordinary ex the capital and special penditure, expenditure other than the Transcontinen tal railway, and we shall also be able to provide out of our revenue two and a quar- for all Ur.

FIELDING.

tcr million dollur3 townrd3 the National Transcontinental rnilway expenditure.
Thus while we shall spend $20.000,000 on the Trauscontinental railway we shall only add seventeen and three quarter millions to the net deLt of the country.

Putting it in ao if we did not have this large other form.

and exceptional work to aeal with, we would, within the year, reduce our public debt Ly two and a Quarter million dollars.

Mr. SPROULE.

What about the surplus of one year building it?

Mr.

FIELDING.

That was a pipe dream of my hon.

friend.

Mr. FOSTER.

The hon.


member (Mr. Sproule) does not smoke.

:Mr.

FIELDING.

Then he and I do not contribute much to the revcnue in that di rection.

I hope he makes it up in some other way.

Turning now to the year Hllo-n, .as we call it in our accounts, the year beginning on the 1st of April next, hon.

gentlemen will observe that it is quite far away and it will be difficult for us to attempt any close estimates.

All I would care to say as respect3 t.hat year is that we are very hope.
the ful that we shall be able to repeat policy of the present year with respect to keeping down the increase of debt.
With the improvement jll our revenues we have, of course, properly made more generous tbe publi~ service, but we provision for hope and believe that the increasing rev enues will justify that, and we look forward with strong expectation, as far as we can deal with matters so far in the future, that our year's operations will enable us to pro vide out of revenue for our ordinary expen diture and for that portion of our capital and special expenditure outside the Trans think it is a fair continental ground for us to take that· in the case of a great national work lil;e the National Trans continental railwo.y and the Quebec bridge.
now virtually a part of the Transcontinen t·al railway, it is not unreasonable that we should expect to go on the money market and borrow, but that not only for our or dinary expenditures, but also for smaller expenditures of a capital character.

we should.

eoc\eavour to make provision oul of our ever-increasing revenue.

railway.

I lir.

R. L. BORDEN.


Reckoning up to the end of the fiscal year on which we have just entered, that is the year ending March 31, 1910, what will be the total expenditure on the National Transcontinental railway?

Mr.

FIELDING.

The Transcontinental r~ad, including the Quebec bridge.

now VIrtually a parl of it, will represent at the close of this fiscal year, $58,:rol,263.94.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Is that to March 31, 1909. or March 31, 1910?

IlM DECEMBER If, 1909 14M • • • I t' is 1. "


.11:1.1.

Mr. FOSTER.

R L BORDEN M Mr.

FIELDING.

Yes.

item to capital account.

ed' to the current fiscal year.

Is any provision to be made for of these items is in regard to arms Mr.

FIELDING.

We are spending this y ques lon re s.... ammunition for the mil,'ti., Is it intended to complete the general income for the year!

Mr.

FIELDING.
Mr.

FIELDING.

That will be at the end from capital account to income account of the last fiscal year and will Dot include several items whieh for a number of years the expenditure of the current fiscal year.

have been charged to capitaJ account.

One and It baa been customary, ~der both governments, to chllrg~ that In like manner.

Dominion lands have been year $20.000,000.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.
Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

That would amount charge4 to capital account~ think the then to about $78,000,000 up to the end of objection to that system may most strongly the- current fiscal year, ending March 31. be taken in the case cf Dominion landI, for we cllarged the 'expenditure iD.

connection 1910' with th~ lands.to capital.8.ccoun~.

while the entire receipts have always been taken into In both the building' of the Transcontinen.tal rail- .
these cases we have been following the way at the tbiie already stated.

that is at practice of the past.

I think in.

these caSeB it proposed to go it win be well to'make a change, certainly the end of 1911, or in the cBse.of Dominion" lands.. No partic~ albwer?

the construction of the Hudson's Bay rail.. ulai' reference that I 8m aware of has been made to that in the PQt and our method way?

Mr.

FIELDING.

The.

estimates before of dealing with.


thes~ items has been pre cisely the same as that of preceding gov~ ernmenta.

parliament include a sum for the further survey" of the Hudson Bay railway route.

It will also be observed that in the ap They do not at present incl.ude any sum for' construction.

propriati~m we are taking for naval expen If it be determined that the matter is advanced to 8. fiufficient point diture the charge is to be made against in I do not.
wish to discuss that branch to call for a vote for,'construction.

that vote come.

will have to come in the supplementary of" the public.

business that the comes later in the hands or-· another minis~ estimates.

As to the completion of ter; but it will be admitted, I think.

that Transcontinental railway, I think we have everything to gain by pushing it' to com-, if we should charge' the construction of ships to capital aCCO'ilDt, charging to in pletion.
The Minister of Railways will have to deal with that.

at.

a later stage.

but come oilly the annual interest thereon and I depreciation.

we possible and for that reason we are taking might justify ourselves in doing so.

How~ a very liberal' estimate of $27.000,000 for ever.

as.

this expenditure, which will be quite· a large one, will be distributed over the coming fiscal year.

think we may properly several years.

I Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Has the bon.

gen~ charge it to· income.


The expenditure of tlema.n made any estimate of what amount .the year will be cbaried to the revenue of the year, and we sha.1l not be obliged to will be requir.ed after the conclusion of the present fiscal year to comp~te and dis~ add anything to the public debt on that charge all our obligatione in respect of the account.

National Transcontinental ra.ilway?

think we shall rosb.

that as quickly as a reasonable sum for to-day, for 'vesselsP Mr.

FIELDING.
FIELDING.

With regard to the revenue for the com~ the estimates for Vr.

FOSTER.

Do I understand the hon.

I have not included it gentleman 'to say that he proposes to charge in this statement, but the Minister of RaU~ to current account the construction of naval ways (Mr.· Graham) will have a staiement at a later s.tage which will deaf with that as with Transoontinental affairs generally.

Mr.

FIELDING.

That is my proposal in Of think we need have' no comse.
if we had to propose the whole cost iog fiscal year,· I hesitation in sa.ying that if we do not reach of these vessels in one year, it would be a the $100.000.000 mark during the current sum which our income would not bear; but year.

we shall certainly do .$0 in the com~ 8S the expenditure will necessarily have to think ing year.
and I believe that with the large be distributed over several years, I and increasing revenue we will be able to it is proper to charge it to income from year provide for our ordinary expenditure and, for that portion of cur capita!

expenditure Mr. FOSTER.

The principle is the same.

which does not refer to the N&tional Trans- continental railway.

fipeak with tQo much confidence on that item.

8S it is in the future, but at all event8 that is the policy I would desire to pUllue Mr. FOSTER.

While my hon.
While my hon.

friend haa been listening to better counsels in this if the finances will enable UB to do so.

It will be observed that in the estimates matter.

has he come to a conclusion to ad~ like to Mr.

FIELDING.

The principle is exact- the coming year.

I would not ly the sam~ to year.

for the coming year we have tra.nsferred just the bounties as wellP 1455 CO:\[MONS 1456 i\Ir.

FIELDING.

the Grand Trunk, I am glad my hon.

friend has cllUed attention to that.


We have discussed from time to time the qUCg· tion of charging these bounties to capi.

tal account.

My hon.

friend is probably aware of the view which I have expressed from time to time.

the bounty is on that.

all foun with the payment of railwny suh· sidies.

which in the time oJf my hon.

friend as well 8S in our time have been charged to capital or special expenditure.

When you pay a railway subsidy to the Canadian Pacific.
the Canadian Northern, Of any other railway company, you have nothing to show for your money.

The railway belongs to the company.

Never the subsidy.

to capital.

theless we charge If you pay bounties for the temporary as sistance of a grea~ indus~ry.

you have noth· iog' immediately to show for your money.

The property is the property of the com pany, and the bounty has gone into the treasury of the company.

as in the case of the railway subsidy.


But you believe that good has come to the country through the development of its trade aod commerce.

anti that is the justification of the bounty.

Mr. FOSTER.

How about steamship sub sidies?

for Mr.

FIELDING.

they go on from yeur I have never been aLle to regard steamship subsidies as merely t-o temporary, year.

The theory of our bounties is that they ore temporary a~ds.
they have lasted somewhat longer than some of us expected; but they stand in the same relation to the country as railway subsidies.

In neither case have you any visible pro perty to represent the money paid, but in both cases you get your return in the gen eral development of trade.

It is true.

In all Sometimes these bounttes are spol.en of as if they had some relotion to the question of a surplus or a deficit.

Speaking ~encr­ they have no such relation, except as oily.

to the volume of the surplus.


the years that we have charged these bounties to capital or special account.

except one, they would not have affected the question of a surplus or l\ deficit.

The one excep tion was lust yeur, when the sUfPlus was :l. small one, aOlI when.

if we had charged the bounties to income, we would have hn.!

a deficit of $1.400,000.

But if you take all the years in which we have paid boun the surpluses aggregated $131.088.259.

ties.
ties.

whereas the bounties during !lame period have amounted to only $18.822.751.

Therefore while in one year the payment of the bounties out of income would have affected the question of a surplus.

if you take the whole period, it would not hove affected the question of a surplus at all.

The chief bounties on iron and steel will expire on the 31st of December, 1910. that iron puddled is.

a There bars the bounties on pig iron.

ingots.


the is and steel Mr. FOSTER.· last bounty on wire rods which is not limitetl in time.

There is a bounty on lead, which is limited to a term of years, and there is a bounty on oil which is not limited.

The chief bounties, however.

are those paid industry, and these to the iron and steel will 31st of December.

tbe expire on 1910.

There is a provision in the Act that bounties for electric smelting may be ex two years longer.
When the tended for bounties were readjusted, we were assured that parties were about engaging in electric smelting, and as it would ta.1\(~ some time to erect their plant.

they asked for an extension of a couple of years.

and it was granted.

As no action has been I taken under on take yeur.

iron not Thereafter shall be to then capital or special account.
may be l\ mt\t· ter to he fairly con3idered at it and steel will the large, bounties and whether we that provision of the Act, bounties next chief expire paid will that time.

them to income charge very that the or I the idea.

Just how far think.

however.

In this connection, I would like to invite the attention of the House to the question of what these bountie3 have accomplished.

I know that with some excellent citizens of Canada the idea of bounties is not popu lar.
More than once I have met people of the very best class who shake their heads over that it can be clearly shown that the treasury of Canada has not lost one dollar from the payment of bounties.

The iron a?d ste~1 industries which have been establ13hed In the country have undoubtedly had a grent in the development of the trade in effect Canada.

the influence of a industry is felt may be a matter of steel debate.

I have no doubt that hon.


gentle men have found mnny cases where business has been influenced favourably a long dis tance frum the location of an iron and steel plant; I have found such cas~s myself; 8!

'1d it must be remembered that III all the pnn cipal trade centres of Canada vast quan tities of goods have been purchased and sold to these steel ports, as I may describe them.

The cities of Toronto.


Montreal, Quebec, Halifax and St. John .will all testify that their merchants have sold great quantities of goods.

to these sleel making ports.

The duties on these goods have been paid at Toronto.

:Mont.real.

Quebec.

Halifax and St. John.

as the case may be.

It is not possible to measure just what these duties have amounted to, but they would not have been paid if there had not been the consumeu I ~o.

not of these goods at the steel ports.


think it is too much to say tha.t mllhons of dollars have been paid into the Domin· ion treasury in that way at porh far re themselves; steel moved from the and in considering .....hat the government have received in return for the bounties, it to bear that in mind.

But would be well ports 14b7 DECEMBER 14, 1909 14b8 I an tihe' city ·But that.

The8e W8.8 steel themaeivel.


established: let U8 look at important industry was Amount of increue of cnttoms rennue ..t the ..me period.

suppose we put that aside, Amount of bountiee paid on pi, iron.

pud.

the condition of the revenue at _the steel dIed bus.

steel.

manutacturNi of .teel and take to be wire rodl durinlf the ten ,ear.

!eGO to 1B09.

ports Sault Bte.

Marie, in Ontario; Bydney.

North both inclulin.

flS,S77.268.

Sydney and Sydney Mines in Nova Bcotia.

Glace Bay Minell, which.


supply the coal to the abo.... porta durin, the Sydney plant; New Glasgow., Nova.

$9,Oll.~.

Thu8 we .see that nearly all that by been Scotia.

and Hamilton, Onto Now.

Hamil- before paid in bountietl came back in revenue ton through the varioUi ports I have named.

the Undoubtedly.
the Undoubtedly.

Hamilton would have made Qualify that .. little, it you like, respecting very con,iderable progrell8 even had theze Hamilton.. On the other ha.nd,· conaider been no steel plant at ~at place.• Let UIIi the supplies purchased in Toronto, Mont real.

Quebec.

8t.

John, Hallfai, thai pused frankly admit it must be ad- into con·sumption in these porta in which mHted also that the steel work.

at Hamil.
at Hamil.

the iron and eteel i.n!Justry i. established, ton bave :n,d much to do with the develop- ment of the trade of that 99ft.

Qualify 88 and I believe I am justified in laying that )'ou will the figures I am about to give aa every dollar that the people of Canada ba.ve respect6 Hamilton, yet I think that all bon.

paid ont.

to the il"on aDd.

steel bUilneu by members will agree that.

as re~pect8 every '!

'i'ay of bounties baa been.


broUfht ·baek in- directly to the publio treaaury in mcreued ether point which I bave named, crease in bUilineas is due directly to the Q.u\ies due to the stimuJaUoD of.

buaineH.

Mr. MIDDLEBRO.

Rae the hon.

min ricvelopment of the iron and steel industry.

a irter any figures showing thd the employees Everyone of.
Ulese communities was small.community.before the steel business cf the-se steel industries· have come from began; every one bss.grown to be a larg~ countries outside of Canada'.·If no~, how end important.

community under the InOu- does he make'it out that there hu been an ence and development of the iron and steel I have here a statement showing businesa.

If, for instance, it can the collections of custO'Dfs revenue for two periods of ten years.

The first period.
The first period.

i8 th·at be shown thst the employeei 'of these in· from 1890 to 1899. a period during which dustries came from the tOwn: the hon.

rriem 60me .steel bounties were paid but during ber (Mr. Middlebro) represente and othen.

the businees which the indust.ry was in its infancy.

an.d and that,· aa a ooneequence, there would be not very much .progress· had been made, ex- cept at New Glasgow,.
and even at the that period New Glasgow had contri·buted very husinese of his town has prospered and there is eo much new bu,ineu at Sydney, largely to the revenue by reason of her steel opera-tions: We compare that period Sault Ste.

Marie '6nd these other placee, I of ten years wit.b the next ten yeare ending confess I do not see the force of his coli- ~un.e SO, 1909: CoX.

'A1U.Tlva STA.nifl:NT 01 CUfltotnl Revenue re- Mr. MIDDLEBRO.

think it should be the other way; unless the han.


minister ceived at the folJowins Porta during the ten years 1890 to 189:9 both inclulive, and for the ten ye.n (Mr. FieldinJ{) can show that this increaae ~f",=m=l=900=to='='=909~,~!>oT'=b=i=n'=l=u,=;,=,=.

"j'===== Iis due kI additional population coming from outside countries, be haa not estabUstled - his case.

A man will eat ILlld wear aa much i.~ one p~ace as in another, and to move him from ane place to another does not mean an increase of busineu.
of- ·those towns decayed, something in his argument.

But· Yearl 1690 to Ye.rI 1900 to 1899••TuneSO.

1009,June30.

------1--- I increase in the customs'dutiesP· M.r..

FIELDING.

tt'ntion.

Portl.

if· I Sault gte.

Marie,Ont.

Sydney, N.B ...... _.

North Sydne,.. N .8.

~nd Sydney Mine.. .

..... Glace Bay, N.S...... New Glnagow, N.S... Hamilton, Ont.....•~ N.S:.... Increue durinB yean 1900 to 1909........ oto.

219,76S 00 163,11& 60 ....


I ~Ol~06618 1,645,769 22 192,IH8 97 31.97666 398,518 2-1 466,320 S2 469,663 4!J 479,Olr) ';G 6,712.684 26 11,648,381 80 I-:-::-=-c+..,-,--- 7,708,566 69 16,710,211"72 ~ 9,0l1.~ f 10,710,2111 .

N<lw, let us compare the amount paid in cusooms bounties with thi8 increase duty: in Mr.

FIELDING.

As a matter of fact, a R1'e.~ proportion of these employees have come· from other· countries.

Mr. MIDDLEBRO.

Has any figures on that pointr the minister I have not; M~.

FIELDING.
FIELDING.

1 know, 6S a matter of fact, that 6 very large percentage of· the people employed in the steel industries at Sydney bas come from outside countries.

but Mr. MIDDLEBRO.

tha~ I would grant Some han.

MEMBERS.

Order.

Mr.

FIELDING.

I have no objection; I desire to hear the hon.

member.

1459 COMMONS 1460 of they would if they come is tenable; but, to assume that Mr. MIDDLEBRO.

I would grant to the that if he could show thl\t hon.
minister the increase of employees due to the steel business represents an increase our population from outside points, his argu· ment from other portions of the country.

we have 11 right have eaten and worn as much where they were lUI where they are.

and consequenUy would have contributed as much to the revenue.

if a man came from Owen Sound to Sydney to work in industry, he left work at Owen the steel Sound and somebody came in t-o do that For my hon.

friend to prove his work.

case.


he would have to show that other parts of Canada were sufferinR in order industry might that prosper.

Mr.

FIELDING.

But the iron and steel Now.

I desire to say a word with re~ard to the increase of our debt.

Up to June 30, 1896. the net debt of Canada was $258, 497 432.77.

The net debt on March 31.

1909, was $323,930.279.17.

an increase in twelve and three quarter years of $65.432.846.40.

Durinlot' the same period.


we expended on the Trancontinental and on the Quebec bridge.

as nreviously stated, $58.391,263.

So that.

apart from that IsrRe undertaking think we are justified in treating -and I exceptional-the in that something as is only $7,041,000.

crease of our debt and that last the fact that year we had a fallinR off in our revenue of $11,000,000.

too in the face of I of refer Now.

our there is another nspect finances which is worthy of a moment's to the charges for consideration.
what we call capital and special account and the manner in which these char~es have been met.

Spea.king generally, we mi~ht say the char~es which are deemed to be on capital and special account, are of an exceptional nature which.

perhaps, would justify the borrowinR of money if necessary.

We ou"ht not to borrow money for our current account.

we oURht to pay our way; but, 10r anythiDIot' in the way of ex permauent penditure, of borrowing Finance may well of money.
Of course it is desirable that we should provide for all we can without borrowinR.

Now.

improvements or capital the Minister if necessary, I desire to show how far we have been successful in providing for that class of exoenditure without borrowing.

Dur· twelve and three-quarter years inp; to which I have referred, the twelve and three-quarler yean of this government.

we have spent on caDital and special expendi have been describing.
tures such thd time we $212,602.818.33; and durimt have added to the debt of the country only $65.432.846.

Tbat.

is t-o say, of these capital and speciJll exnenditures we have borrow· ed but a very small porportfon.

and we justify the as I the Mr.

FIELDING.

provided of the $212.602.818, no less than $147,169,971 out of our own revenue; that is to say.

that out of our revenue we not onlv provided for all our ordinary expendi.

ture.
ture.

but durin~ that whole twelve and three-Quarter years we provided for more than 69 per cent of our capital and special charRes out of revenue, without resorting tu borrowing.

without going into debt.

Now.

let us see what was the record of our predecessors-I do not say this for Lb.. purpose of finding fault.

but it is a fair In the period from 1878 to c:omparison.

those called capital 1896. similar charges.

and special.
and special.

had to be met to the amount of $167.166.252; and during that period the net debt of the country increased by $118, 135.362.

Mark the figures: Capital and increase special expenditure, $167,166.252; of debt, $118,135.362.

80 that all our hon.

friends who preceded UII were able to prtr vide for expenditures of that character out of revenue, was $49.030.889; that is to say, that while we have been able to provide for expenditure of revenue to the extent of 69 per cent.
they only prtr vided it to the extent of 29 per cent.

Our predecessors had to add nearly 70 per cent that class of expenditures to the debt of of the countrv.

while we have added onl7 30 per cent of that class of expenditure.

to the debt.

that kind out of government had Now.

one may make another compari8~ the same lines.

There are certam alonlit big public works which the government have sometimes to provide for.

and which the common cal· have to be lifted out of culation.
The late to the Canadian Pacific railway; provide for we have to provide for the Transcontinental railway and the Quebec bridge.

I propose to eliminate from the two accounts these to leave out.

lar£e and exceotional works, the u· in the case of my predecessors.

the Canadian penditure on account of in our Pacific railwaY.

and to leave out case the expenditures on account of the railway and the Quebeo Transcontinental bridRe.

and what do we find~ Leaving out from.


the Canadian Pacific 1878 to 1896, our predecessors provided ~or 42 per cent of their capital and specIal expenditure out of their revenue; while .we leavlnl have provided for similar charges.

out and Quebe.

the Transcontinental bridKe.

not 42 per cent.

but more than 9G per cent, out of the revenue of the coun try.

railway.

Mr. J. D. REID.

Could the hon.


the Finance Minister tell us how much taxes were collected from the people during the eighteen years from 1878 to 1896. durina' the 10 vealS from 1897 to 19071 Mr.

FIELDING.

No, I cannot tell at thlA the hon.

~nU~ the rate of customs tuahon II moment.

But I can tell man that 14&1 DECEMBER 14, 1909 1452 if it shall :will be $45-.85.

the onlv difference between my the figures have always been less less now than it was in the former period; 1 it.
was $50.87; and from that point down, and that than they were in 1896.

And to-d&y, although bon.

friend and myself on that question is that while he wants to raise the taxation in the last year we did add $46.000,000 to of the country.

we are desirous of keeping the debt of the country, 8lthou~h in the the debt of 8 country is present year we add upwards of it down.

Now, onlv a burden in propoI:tion to the number $17,000,000 to the net debt, yet these fip;ures are ~orrect.
on the 31st day of of shoulders that have to carrv it.

Some- times people speak of ,the growing debt of.

March.

1910, the net debt of Canada per Canada.

without stopping to consider, as head will be, not $50.82 as it was in 1896, thev should, other ,elements of the growing but So, Mr. Speaker, time.

The debt of Canada must be con· if due rej;tard be had to the ,l!.

'rowth and the increase of debt sidered in proportion to the population of prof:tress of Canada, Canada.
I have here a l;'tatement----I have is exceedingly small; and even with the submitted it on a previous occasion, but verY material sums which we!

have to add I have now broujlht it down to date; it is on account of the National Transcontinental railway, we are still in the happy position a statement showin,l!.'

the popula.

ada for every year from 1891 down to the of seeinp; vresent faster including the current year, and giving the estimated population for the current year.
It also shows the popu· lation of Canada as shown from year yefLr by our census officers.

While our gen- eral census is taken only once in ten years, as respect-s our western provinces taken more frequently, and· from year year an estimate is made o·f our population Mr.

FIELDING.

The amount is set forth bv qualified census officials; I could not give it to my han.
friend immediately, but if he receive from year turn to the report in the Public Ac the population of th"ere set find the figures approximately correct.

to Mr. LAKE.

Before the minister passes from the debt, may I ask to what.

extent' the bo~~s of the Grand Trunk ,PaCIfic and it· is other lallway~ h~ve been guaranteed up to tion and resources of Canada is than the growth of our public debt.. to year a statement of the country which is will so that we in the Public Accounts.
the net debt of Can· to_ the present time.

the J!rowth of time, that counts he will forth.

NET DEBT PER CAPITA.

Mr. LAKE.

For 18st year?

Mr.

FIELDING.

$4,9 09 4915 48 98 49.40 50 57 SO 82 50 87 SO·77 SO 62 49 88 49 59 49 08 '579 4-fo 29 'S 70 422S 39 61 40 49 4533 45 85 4,8«,366 4,889,266 4,935.748 4,983,903 5.003,839 5,086,061 5,14,1.508 5,199,26'i 5,259,491 5,822,348 5,413,370 5,537,500 5,712,100 5,890,066 6,091,136 6,323,551 6,655,904 ·6,868,500 7,145,040 7,450,990 Year.
1891.. 1892.. 1893.. 1894.. 11195. .

1896.. 1897.. 1698.. 1899.. J!iOO.. 1901.. 1!l02.. 1903.. looL 1905.. 1906.. 1007.. 1908.. 1909.. 1910.. ·Estimated.

Net Debt Population.

Net Debt.

per Capita.

$23i,809,030 51 241,131,434 « 241,681,089 61 246,183,029 48 253,074,927 09 258,497,432 77 261,538,596 46 263,956,898 91 266,2i3,44660.
265,493,806 89 268,480,003 69 271,829,089 62 281,606,988 87 260,867,71860 266,22'-166 60 267,04,2,97775 2GS,671,859 96 277,960,859 8t 323,930,27917 ·8'1,880,279 17 'fhe last blue-book con tains the latest statement.

If my hon.

friend, on looking it up, finds it to be in sufficient, I will be happy, if he will men tion it to me, to see that he is put in pos session of the information..

I do not wish to burden the House with many statistical tables.
There was a time when the budget speech was a somewhat ponderous affair, but I have endeavoured to have regard to the time arid patience of the House.

But, I thought a few statistics might be given to show the rapid recovery that has taken place after the check that came upon the business of the country B year or two ago.

The total trade in 1908-9, as compared with 1007-8, declined to the extent of $79,524,364.

Of that imports declined $61,029,917 and ex port.s $18,494,447.
An early recovery, I am glad to say.

is going on and quite rapidly.

For the seven months to the 31st October, So uoon authority of the census officers ·1909, being the last dute for which we have of Canada, I am able to state that on the the customs statistics, the total trade of all the kinds exceeded that of last year by $48 31st day current year, by the best they 400,000.

Of this $34,553,278 represents ini.

the population of Can· ports and $13,847,219 exports.
At the same can brinll to bear, ada will be 7,450,990.

Now, trade of if we apply rate of progress for 1910 the total the current year will probably exceed that· these figures to the net debt of the coun· that of the record year of 1907-8, when the total try.
we have this JZ"ratifving result, while in 1891 the net debt was $49.09 per A brief reference might also be made to capita, and while it had increased in 1896 to $50.82, the the deposits in the chartered banks, merely first year of Liberal administration, when to indicate the restomtion of OUf financial it be~an to diminish after trade was $650,000,000.

close of judgment of March, at the COMMONS H6~ The (!.lUi, rather Ilenrl'y what these depOSIts imr~r~~n'illg our country.

csreciaJly they have.

held.


n ser,les of commiSSIOners that we should are Hssoeintetl Sir and Sir Daniel the greatest attrac- In the year 1008-\) the banl, deposits amllunted to $7:1I,- Ill~CtlllgR Ill; varIOUS parts o,f Canada, to the We~t !ndies.

the these very the Dl'itis.h commissioners our western them there at a very early date, hut Ten .\'ears ago the deposits Ithe ~e"t methods of 1403 =-=~--"=-~-"=-===== ;========== equilibrium.
the tra.de in the chartered banks of Cannda amouutcd relatlOlIS lJetl\ecn the Bnhsh West Indles to $~50,OOO,OlJO.

They_ increased rapidly n~d fLJ:d ,call.ada.

'fhe chairman of.

that com.

llllSSIOn 15 Lord Balfour of Durlelgh, a very on the first Sept em her.

statesman, with whom amounted to $500.000,000.

Then, under the eminent British intlut'lIcc of the depression which hnd come, .John Dickson Poynuer l\Jonis, and upon that com.

they began to Jrop and they did drop for se\'eral months.
Then they begun to in- mission were placed two m('mbers of the crC:lsc: and f1i; n resllit on thc "31st Octoher, Canadian goverolllC'llt-the Minister of Cus tOlllS and the ~1ini,;ter of Finance.

We lOW, interesting 800,00::1, or three tinH's the \,,-CI'O only ten yems ago, illllui""'ration fi,!

!Ures are also very efH'ct of WhiCh, I am sure, Will be to enable to.

understand grati(vill;;!"


eoI am go(ng over tl!e qnestlOn from the Cana~han point of l,ridly because I do not wish to weary the House with many .statistics.

It is hardly V1CW.

At the next stage the mquiry moves It was the desire of necessary to sny that n steady influx of population is one of join the important things fol' \\'(~ fel~ that our first duty was to the parlia.

('Oulltr.v, which offers tions to immigration.


11I1:'lIt of Canada and we had tet ask that the there was a cOllsidcl'uh!e falling off in im· mcding of the commission might be post~ mi!

!ration, 'fhe British members of the com gC;lltS W;IS 262,·I6D, while in the next year- mission will me~t in .Jamaica at an early then proceed 1!m8-a-it ",as only 146.008, showing a de- date in Jalluary and will !

'louth, crea::;e of 1I[1,5Gl.


If the business of this parliament 'A very noticeable feature shollid be sufficiently ad\'aneed to enable of the iJlJmigration that yeM was that the fallillg off wa!\ almost entirely in lhitish my hOI1.

friend the :Minister of Customs and continental There was nmi myself to ah!

'lC'nt ourselves we hope to no fall ill!!

off in the United Stutes immi- he able to join the commission in the 151 g"l'ntillll.

~The movement u1 the tide once land of Ba.rbados the middle of was !
;cttin.!!

southwards; the tide is now l'\'hruary, but that, of course, will depend moving' northward nnd even in the yenr of elltirdy upon the condition of the business llenression the illllni,C'ration from the United 'Jf the Canadian pnrliamellt.

States did not fall of~.

In looi-8 the immi· ,t.:rants from the Untted States numbered l~O n \ll"y be d 5" 0'>0 'I "Ie', '" "10 ",00.>':'.

.... _, •.> -' There wail a wry slight incrcnse in the the retur~s f~r the present nllllll,cl·.
But yea~ ;lrt~ very CIlCOUl'llgtng lIldced, Com- 1!,Irlllg the tRbles for the te.n months of the IHesl'llt cflellLlar year "'.Ith those for t',he tC'1l mon!.\s of /l~Hl t!\at there has been, ~!n lI,lcre~5e of 26..- 8:.:1.

shg-htly less •.hnn 1Il th~ preVI?US year, nlllllhcr salllC "mI Stah's ,If/pcars to he ste~dily mcrensmg.

the seOlle of this co _ .

n,l ott!

'\ I co ollles, or IS It Ih ' e " " bl"' ICS.

Mr.

FIELDING.

It is limited to the BrH ish West Indies, heCtlll!


'lC WJlllt we hope will _r.~ it will be n preferential tuHf in the British West Indies in favour the prodllct.s of Canada and, of course, that eonld not be.

arrnll.

'!cd with forei.!

:m It is, of COllTS~, too early for the ns to say much nR to thnt, but we may IS ahout .the hope that as a rpsnlt of the inquiry- CflOada the marl,(>.ts of 1\'[1'.

HUGHES.

.

.

I"" In " " I I ' IT.


'1~S10n lmlte{ to t k I " S th e a -e 111 1ho Ilu~llber .of Bntlsh ~mnllgrants IS countries, fr.om, the ~ll1tcd will rcceive n prefcl'ellce ill In 1!Xl7-8 the number of immi- poned.

the preyIOus year we of the West Indies.

lim nc·.n repu- the result of the continent immigration.

tile numbel' <; Hum re n 'NO-" about fron,l ou \\ 11 h 0 the attention eommis~,ioners going to the West Indies?

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.
Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Are the Canadion We IHl\'C llatnrallv dt'sireu to extend our In trade rf'!,ltiOl:S with other countries.

tlt;tt cOllllcction I might call of l!le House to the steps that arc bein"'" lnl,i'n with 1\ view to the encouragement or trade rclati()lls hetween Canada and h"lkl' tll(!

\\"('st Indies.

We have long hnd n. con.


sid('I'ahle tl",Hle with the We~t Indies Rnd :It one s!<I~e it wus deemed :!dvisable that Indies \I"e l;l!rHl!,1 gmnt 11]('\ b('llc,its of our preferential So f;:r I':C lI}~ve 1l()~ ~'f!ceived an}' retut'll of any l,ltHl.

not faih'd to notice the desirability of estab trade relali\ll1s bC'twecn the li",hin!!

vnl'inns branchC's of the clllpire.

nnd it \l"n~ roynl some months ago that nrran'frl!

COllllni.".!
COllllni.".!

:;jo11 ShOllM he aplloinlC'u by Hi~ the purpose of ilHlllirin'g into ?\Tak:"t?

fot' .I he r.ntlsh government have the 11l'itif>h West ('.

]Mer tariff.

n. :\[1', FrELDJ?\G.

Mr.

FIELDING.

This is our difficulty: The British commissioners proposed when they were here thnt, we should go with them, but we had to say, that, Jlavillg re £:'ard to our pmli:lmentrH)' duties, we could.
not ~o at oneco At the fir,:;t llwf'!.illgo whk·]), J think, will he held at .Jamaica about the llIirhlle of .Tallllnry, we shall not be able to he prescnt.

They will hold somr.

flll'ther Ol('etings and thcy have placed us under in the Is !

'lome !

'lll!

'f, (If h"nd~ t·Ll join thC'1lI land of Darha~lo.s on the 15th of February, tlwrC'I!JOlltS.

WheUwr or not we ?oha\l IIr 1,e '1hlc tn got) denC'lhls on tht:!

progrCSfl of business in this House.


1465 DECEMBER 14, 1909 1466 ' I of it, virtue the products of In due course !lCgO- we give.
Our treaty with France has now passed Great Britain oontainmg the most.favoured that through its vlU"ious parliamentary sta~e8; it nation principle and by the French treaty we are obliged to give to Austria~ ".has received the approval of the French the benefits of Chambers; it has received the approval of Hungary all treaty, and it is often too hastily assumed the parliament of Canada.

,and nothing re 4 that we get nothing in return.

But.
But.

mains now but the f<>rmJil exchange of rati- if p.e,ations which may take place -at Pa.ri-s, there was no such treaty, Austria-Hungary We do not know at what date that may.

would be free to make an arrangement take place.

Still.
Still.

it is our desire that the with our neighbours to the south and to the United States ratifications may be exchanged as soon a~ admit into her markets on more favourable terms possible, so that we will be able to receive than she would admit the products of Can-, the degree of increased trade that we ex- ada.

Then, Canada would be obliged to pect to receive from that convention.
We are aware that other nations are anxious to make a special treaty with Austria-Hun deal with us along somewhat similar line"s. gary if she could, and she might or might the not be able to come to terms.

But' while It has not escaped our notice that German empire is· also anxiouR now to ap- the most--favoured nation treaty remains in proach Canada in a good spirit.

It is an operation we have the assurance that neith occasion when we need not dwell too much .
::r the United States nor any other competi on what has happened in the past.

We are tor of ours can receiv.e any advantage in aware that Germany is disposed n·ow to the markets of Austria-Hungary that will enter upon negotiations with us, and we are not at the same time come· to us..

Surely, al-so aware that there are two other Euro- that guarantee of the best terms that will peao nations whi-ch are anxious to enter be given to any foreign nation is something into trade relations with Canada.
refer worth while as a return for the concessions to Italy and Belgium.

tiations will have to be entered upon with Mr. R: L.. BORDEN.

Do I understand these countries with the view· of arriving, the Minister of Finance.to suggest that our if possible.

at some friendly understand- morket in that respect is increased by the ing with thein.

Reference has sometimes been made in the House, and.

more particu- provisions of the French treaty?

to _the disadvantage Mr.

FIELDING.


No, but if there was no lady outside of which Canada is said to 'Suffer from the fact such treaty and if we were to impose on that the benefits i;lf the French treaty have the products of Austria-Hungary higher to go to -certain other countries which give rates than we impose on, the products of us nothing in return.

At all events that is France, Austrill.Hungary would naturally the way it .is expressed.

It is said that proceed at oncs; to penalize us.


The con certain countries, by virtue of most favour- ditions that we have are such that at all times whenever any concession is granted cd-nation treaties, made many years ago, are entitled to the benefits of this French by Austria-Hungary to any other nation we treaty t.hotlgh they give us nothing in re- get the full benefit of it, and I really can not see that we can expect more.

I seri- turn.
I seri- turn.

these ously think that it is a valuable concession removes Iavoured·nation treaties as something dis- advantageous to Canada.

I hesitate to ac- any necessity for our WOlf) lng over our re· The same lations with Austria-Hungary: cept that view.

We do receive some sub- stantial the benefits would be true of the other countries, many we extend to these countries; we receive of them not very important, which have the the guarantee that no other country will these.
favoured.nation ·arrange ever receive better terms than Canada re- ments.

ceives, and that is of the utmost importance There is one other country with which we I.e' us.

No country IS going to give Canada have very close commercial relations.

Of relations are with the <\ monoply of convention with any country- receive some mother country, which is our great market, the time bemg.
but every but that comes to us so naturally that we advantage for to hardly speak of it at all; we know we have country will naturally claim its right make a treaty with any other country.

All our most valuable· market in the mother that any country can reasonably ask from country and our people appreciate it.

There .another country is that it shall be guaran- is.

as I say, another great country with te.ed the best terms that are given to others.
which we have close· commercial relations Now, suppose we had no favoured-nation and that is the United States.

There has treaties; suppose we had none of these old' been some anxiety, perhaps some unneces in the mind of some of our treaties which we sometimes now complain aary alarm, to possible friction of, what might happen?
Let us take the Canadian people as case of one of the great nations which en- arising in consequence of the recent tariff joys the benefit of one of legislation in the United States.

But, afte~ l\ llslri.a-Hungary has an old treaty with reading the most admirable messa~e of its trade.

We may by .a course our closest that we thus obtain because it thing in return for these treaties.
a tendency 1:..eneflt of There treat to is 1467 co,nrol\S 1468 It It is trras::.ury of its way into the is due to other coun· in Canada means that finds to issue n gold coinage in Can- Canada.

Unfortunately, We nTe approaching the time when we portation of American silver eoins it few day~ ago, has given us n be~ter buildin~ and equip.
President Taft io Con;::-rcss, I think that we e[ln nll feel that the United ment than we possibly could hu\'c obtained Slat{·s ~ov(>rnllH'llt ha"c a "cry correct up· without the assistance of these gentlemen In connection with our mint there come~ preciation of what tril's.

am.!

,0 CUIHHla particularly.

I think uP.

the question of the deportation of fureign the terlllS in which Presillent Tail.

ad- COIllS.

A large proportion of the silver CUf_ relley in Cllllndn is foreign, chiefly Arneri.
dressed ('0111;1'('''" on that suuject give us call, nnli as t.here is a substantial proOt on abundutlt ll;,;,"U1":1I1('C that he and his cabinet nrc desiruus of continuing the close and lhe cuinnge of silver, the presence of this ,'\meriC,1ll silver currency friendly relations which prc"ail between the large volume of the profit on that rcpublic lUlU Cnnada.

and we· for the pl'es- Cll~ arc not t;!oing to nssllmc thnt there is the fur anxiety ns to any friction United States.
We have, therefore thought lllly caus::.c it desiraule to take steps toward~ the ex- arb-dllg II(:tw{:cn thll 1\...·0 countries.

from there is no reci shull wunt 'fhnt will necessitate some change in procity with rcgnrd to this silver coinage ada.

our Cunency Act.

nnd n mcaSllTe dl'alin~ circulation.


An American silver coin will with that hranch of our affairs will be be taken almost anywhere in Cannda, but In the a Caniu!iun silver coin will not generally brought forward at an early date, meantime I avail myself of the opportunity be accepted in the United St.ates, except to present some information and to answer perhaps ulong the frontier where there is to the operations of considerable freedom of interchange.
Now, inquiry with respect the Ottawa branch of the Royal Mint.

if our American brethren were circulntin .... the objects we had in a lot of Canadian coins and we were cir: is well known that view in establishing the mint.

were.

first, culating:" lot of American silver the deal we desired to make our coins in Canada, would be square.

and secondly, we were influenced to some extcnt by the desire to have the gold of the Mr. FOSTER.

If we got into their S80.


Yukon ;\ml the Canadian provinc.es brought 000,000 silver it would be more than square.

through Canada rather than ~ent away to as :Ullount was being cir the United States.

follows the flng, and there nrc oth('f~ who cnlated in both countries.

The fact is that say that trade follows the gold.

and if this while in any part of Canada you may he true, then, if you kcep your !

!

'old in your he handed an American silver coin over own commercial channels you will thc counter.
once you get away from the PIlce yOlll' trnde.

Perllaps parliament had boundary in the United States you will t.Iwt in mind when hoth sides ngrcpd it WAS never come across such n thing as n Cana the dian silver coin in the transaction of busi desirable to establish a mint.

it wi!

'ic that we, IIl'SS.

We have thought mint will show n very handsome profit.
but the people of Canada, the treasury of Can let me also say frankly that we could mAke a .zr~ater profit oy having- no mint: we ada, s::.hould haye the prollt on the silver rurrlmey 1l!

:iC'<1 in Canada.

So we have taken could I!lnke n greater profit hy hllvinq our It has steps to export the American coins.

the c(.imi made in tho old country.

nllt,.

tiS to drf\ire to sometimes been suggested that we should !iIlme rea sun which lea.ds make other thin.!
:"s in Canadn lends lHl to prohibit the U!le of this coin.

That would dC!

'iire to make the coins of Canada within be a great mistake.

There are points along ollr own houndaries.

We could snve money the boundary where.

it is n. grel1.t conveni by having- our Dominion notef\ printed in ence to take the COIllS of on.e Side or ~he Enqland, but it was thought well !lome years I oth~r, !1ud nny attempt to mterfcre With :lgO to stipulate that they should he printed I thetr ngh~ to do so, would .
probably .be ('fected embarrassmg.

So we do not mterfere With III Canada at an establishment within sight of the parlifmH'nt buildings.

Ithat practice.

Of course these foreign coins they pass freely.

Havill .... provided that our note ~hall I~e made in Canada.

it was but n step I We have made an arrangement with th~ the Amen m advance to say that our mettillic cur- banks whereby they export all the rencv !lhould be mnde here as well.
We (':111 to hi~ve established what is called the Ottawa United Stutes.

As removed ill branch of ~reated for our own com and.

that j:!I,,:es adv.mtag-e in having it a branch of the Royal Mint that we shall be able to coin mcreased employment to the mlllt and Ill sovereigns which we could not do if it were creased profit purely a Canadian mint.

Another thing is MI'.

FOSTER.

Huw do '{on keep it out?

that it hns enablc(l us, to have Mr.

FIELDING.

You cannot hep it out.


lind equipment of the sk~ill und ex-I it will cOlne hacl, ag/lin.

and where it comes the great advantage of pericllce of the Royal Mint officials, which back in thc wny of It'gitimnte trude, whilc the Roynl Mint.

There is the from the country, natllr.ully a mnrkct.

Mr. FI ELDING.

trade sume that nn equal to tllf'1ll that coin h currency are not legal in the conslructi-on to the trcasury.

the buildinc:.

tender, hut if we" will comes inftu- Now.


Yes, tlHlt that ('oill SIIir!

.

:\f1-.

1-'-1 ELJ)J~G.

1460 DEpEMBER 14, 1009 1470 I - it the loss said that to a small extent.

way than in legitimate trade?

:Mr. FOSTER.

Does ii come in any other perhaps it is not wise to encourage it, is better to export it than to prohibit it.

their counters.

We think we may properly' call in that currency and recoin it.

This' involves 0. small loss.


because the friction caused by passing of tpe coinage diminishes is quite its weight.

However, Mr.

FIELDING.

No, I think not; I think small and we Bfe able to give- our ·people it is the passing to and fro along the boun· a fresher.

cleaner and better currency, ann ~ dary to some· extent and then the large I think they will approve of that.
is authorized to l.umber of American viaitora who come in the mint It has done so every year, who are gladly welcomed-we coin British sovereigns.

hope more will come-all bring some coins It has a very small re'" with them, and to prevent in any way the fining plant which enables it to do a little free use of these coins would cause erobar- work along this line, and a number of 'Peo rassrnent.
We do not propose to do so, pIe have presented gold which they desired but we say as soon as this coin comes in to be converted into British sovereigns.

we will send it out, and we can ~fford to do That has been done, the mint receiving a it.

We pay a small commilBiqn of three- eights of one per cent to the banks for ex· porting it, them for the handling of the coin.

not look upon the commission as a great in- $547,'196.33.
It is estimated that for the refinery now ducement to the banks, but I look to them to under construction and its equipment a as good, patriotic Canadian citizens, feel it to be their duty under this arrange- ,iurther expenditure of $67;000 win be re~ ment, not for the commission, but for the quired.

higher purpose, to see that whatever Ameri- cnn coins come into a branch bank, shall not be paid out over the counter, but shall be retained and sent out under the ar- rangements that we have made.
The actual expenditure in the construc this being only enough to pay tion of the mint,_ including site and build I do ings, up to November 80,· 1009, has been The estimated complete cost of the.mint fair payment for its services.

is $605,047.

., The mint has been in operation for near ly two yea.rs, since January 2, 1908.

In the first calendar year it coined 4,877,027 piecea.

sovereigns comed for the owncxs of.

gold in the man- ner I have already mentIOned.

636 Brit.ish included Mr. FOSTER.


Will the minister say to T~ese what points· the banks sent them?

.

- to included 13,161 British Mr.

FIELDING.

They may send it Mr. FOSTER.

Does the minister.

know annum for maintenan~e.

In the eleven months of the present cal.

and port in the United States, and on ev!- endar year the mint coined 6,862,982 pieces.

dence that they have exported it and deliv~ This sovereigns ered it coined under the conditions I have men.
to a bank outside of Canada we the certificate and pay the small Honed.

accept commission.

upon it.

Parliament makes a grant of $75,000 per In 1908 this was.

the yearly cost of deportation and the quan- more than sufficient, the outlay being <mly The present year will aboorb tity deported?

nl,997.32.

the ~hole annuity, and in view ?f t1?-e in Mr.

FIELDING.

We had an arrangement cre.asmg a;mou!1t.

of .work the mm~ 1S 1',e several year~ ago which expired by lapse of time.
We renewed it by order in coun- quued to do, 1t 1S ltkely the annUlty WIll cit of the 2nd of June, 1909, and since that have to be enlarged.. date there has been exported $432,865 on which we have paid a commission of three~ eighths of one per cent.

We also make use of The coot of operatl9n has been: 1908.. •..•• •• •• 1909 (11 months).. $71,997 82 61,729 52 the mint ;.

.. •• .. •• .. .

for re coining worn silver currency.

For some years we have been endeavouring.


to make the paper currency of Canada cleaner than in former years and I think we have suc~ ceeded, although perhaps the banks are still open to some criticism in that respect.

It will be observed as a rule that the paper currency of Canada is now fairly clean.

Having presented to our people a cleaner paper currency, we thought we should give them silver currency in better condition ..
There has been a large amount of worn silver currency in Canada, some of it quite It is not a proper cur~ thin and smooth.

rency for circulation, Qut it has passed freely.

A gets it and gives it to B and so on and the banks have paid it out over 1\b.e total cost of operation for one year and eleven months has thus been $133, 726.84. .

The revenue of the mint during the same period, including payment for all services rendered, amounts to $405,565.68.

.

The profits have thus been $271,838.


This handS<lme halance will, of course, pay in terest on the cost of construction and still leave a large sum to the credit of the mint.

But, of course, as I pointed out, while we have this large profit on the operation of the mint, we could have had our coins made in the old country and have made a latlzer nroftt out of them.

The judgment.

<:f the House, irrespective of party, waa that It is- we should hflve a Canadian ·mint.
1471 COMMONS -====--=-=--=--"---=== =--- \-nc of the advancing steps of our C'unadinll Ithat is.

nationality, and I Lelieve it.hns met wit·1t I combinc~.

the approval of· the r.1mmumty at lllrgc.

1472 _:"----=---=---=-== lfi the the ~ere that clause, combine regard in the Governor provision with that finJin.s:: bv the juJicinl that a combine existed for that clause wos so modified as to 'l'hose who the 1897 may possibly· remember House t1u!
:t when as it 13 commonly called, was first presented it proposed to parliament, in any :;:iven case where it should be established to the satisfaction in of Council en.

hancing prices the Governor in Council should thereupon, upon: their own motion reduce the tariff on the article in question: the resolution It was in I·hat form that was first submitted to this House.

but afterwards it wns represented to us that for tl~at scemed to be n dnngeros power that the governmEiJlt to take to itself.
·At time industrIal estnblishments were pos.

siblv more sensitive than they nre now as to the effect of the tariff.

After consider ation, to reQuire a reterenee to a judicial commis ~ion to detl'fmine whcthcr or not there was only fl, combine enhancinJ: prices; after trihunal was the !

!ov('rmuent (ree to make a reduc· the tll.riff by executive act; :md in tiOll It is that all:clldl'll form the Jaw passed.
lJecnuse sOIlle'1 hiles of that complninerl the mnchin· the modification then made, ery of that cOllllline clause is too slow alld It is said that the govcrnnll'nt incHective.

have not the for to cncoura~e payment of the clause; the people to take ndvantng-e of that 100 llluch is lcft to tllc individual and too little financial responsihility is put upon the Tmhlic lrf'l\."ur.\'.
We lire willing to meet an emly day prOj)ose a IllCn!Ulre dealing with that subject, nnd its purpose will be chiefly to which I have re· to meet govern the fcn'(,(l. JlI0nt-not hastily or recklessly, because InrJ!c inte1'e!

'ts nrc illvolved llnd must be considered-if there ig 1\ re'fl.!

'.onable prima facie case that a combinntion exists for nnduly enhnncin~ prices, may provide nIl the expenses for cOllductin~ the inquiry, Thllt inclndill!!

is the substnnce ·of the change, which will bf' T'Topo!
"ed nt· n Inter !

'.tllA'C.

the rril.icislll It will nruvide that this criticism.

We shall at the paymf:'llt of eOHllscl.

Ilroviucd snniciclltly expclI::;CS and ill loan reduced With regard to thc loans maturillj:l', on Ihe first of January next what is known fl.!!

of the 4 per cent Callndll [6.443,136 falls due.

1'his was oridnally II 5 1W1' cent loan issu('d hy the llrovince of Canada in 1800 and renewed on the first of .July, 1885 for 24~ yeRrs at 4 per Cf'!lt.
provide this at maturity and 10 To llIeet 0111' lar~e requiremcnts fllnds for loan a of fG.500.000 of 3'\ 0('1' Cf'nt !=-Iock at OS!

per is!<lled -in London ~n the first of e'cnt.

wa:;; .Tnlv last.

An option W;lS triven to the rl"l\ue'P;t\ bond":!

hold"rs of anc\ Rlock nmturin!:!

on the fir~t of .T:I.l1Ultry to recpive M el1uivalent alllount next of the lind a ('ash pa;'>llll'nt of the ne'w lonll, thp c1ir!f'rcnc~ llf~twecn the cquivalf'nt of l)e1' cpnt tllP -I Mr. FOSTER.
Would the minister tell lIS how much it would have cost Canada :J hR\'~ had thnt S:lme coinll::;-e made under lhe old system?

Mr.

FIELDING.

I have not made Ole eulculation, but we certainly could have .

had OUT coins made much more cheaply in that way.

We could also have had our llfltC'S mnde much more cheaply in England thnll in Ottnwa, ·but just us the former gov (fnment adopted the policy of ,having notes 1~);\l,.le in Ottawa, we llave carrie<!
that pol icy a step further and have provided a mint f"r the making of coins here.

Mr. FOSTER.

give a clilelllation of just whnt ence would be?

I wish the ministeT wouid the differ i\Ir.

FIELDING.

I would be ~lad to "'ive it, but ill my judgment, find I think in =>the ju<lgm~llt of the House and of the country, the f1rgunlE-nt.

We fill it will not affect knew whell we established the mint that \1 e could ha.ve our coins mnd·~ much more cheaply in England, hut we ei'.
!cted to have thcm made in Canada.

1"1r.

FOSTER.

fiecause the minist,er does liCIt thillk it affects the argument, docs he consider that the information should not he givcn?

JUr.

FIELDING.

Cf'rtninly 1101.

Of course this is a matter of opinion.

?oJr.

HUGHES.

Thc milli!

'ite; to that ex tent helieves in tha national po!iey of the GnnsCI"\'ative party?

Mr.

FIELDING.

Pr<lhobly it.

is lime that sorll(~I)(1dy bdic\'ed in it., ·hecullse I believe tlwt the COll.
"t;'l"V;lth·e orgnns nre repudiat ing it.

the tariff We have 110 turiff changcs to propose on It is not because we have.'

tltis nCCH~ion.

E:lllC'I'('J.

a claim that is perfect.

J il:wc no <!nubt tl1nt wherever you hnve a ~nstoms tariff necessarily as full and intri· there will be room este as oms hns to he, ((If criticism, anfl certainly nlw.ays room lor dt~m:lnds for changes.
nut we ltre of the ill the bcst interests opinion thd it is nf)t of the husiness of the country thnt there ~houlil he frequent changes.

We belicved that tariff changcs must have a (:istllrbil1~ infiuenee on the ~)\1!

'iness of the wunlry :llltl we wished to have: it generally there has been n understooll gE"neral the tMiff, R.S we lUHl (_nly two ycnrs 1Ig-0.

the government woulll Ilot b~ di!

'il)()scd to mnke chr.ngcs unlcss the n'~ed foJr them was very Ulgent indeed.

prllvi in Hi."
prllvi in Hi."

'I'brone; in our Tariff Act 10 from .

the is Rion which Excellency's that wher!!

revision of fl'cquellt alluded There is speeeh Mr. nELDIN'G.

a 1473 DECEMBER 14, 1911ll 1474 of us first.

£2.000.000 of In addition, some value of the loan issued and the ,"alue of January.

the maturit.y on the re The amount conv~rted of the Con ada intd the new loan was £1.847•.

duced stoel, the 418.

4 per cent reduced Joan was held in its own sinkinj::' fund.

leavinlO!
leavinlO!

£2.496,749 to be repaid in cash in London on the first of January.

The proceeds of the loan that I have just referred to wiU enable to pay this alliount.

There is n further loan of £4,000.000 at 4 per cent issued in 1885, redeemable _between HIIO and 1935 on tl,e ,(l"o"ernment giviDj::' six months' notice.

As it was the inten this is a 4 per cent loan, tion of the ~overnment to avail itself of the option of redemption, and accordingly to ~ive six months' notice on the first of January neIt.
It would be ~ood business to replace a 4 per cent loan by one bear inR a lower rate of interest.

But in view the of the present disturbed condition of money market, and I may add also t·he thouA"ht it political disturbance, we have that· advisable to oostoone the givin~ of notice until Fur the first of Julv next.

Iher, on the first of October.

1910. a £1.500.

000 4 per cent loan of 1875.

~uaranteed' by In the imperial J!

'overnment, addition to these.


there are two amounts of treasury bills, one of t.J.OQO,OOO falling due on the first.

of February, 1910. nnd another of £500,000 fallin,lt due on the first course of July, 1910. nrrang-ements will have to be effected for mee\.ing these obli$l."ations.

As I have said before, the financial and other disturbances in which have affected the money market for inexpedient London have rendered it the pre!\ent lar,l!c operations by way of long term loans.
It hns accordinlZ'ly been to deemed wiser term bills, the expedient of short adopt and ne~otil1t.ion8 have been on carried with the view of providin,l1; £3,000,000 for n period of six months on the security of treasury bills from the first January next.

The operation has been effected at the rate of 3~ per cent per annum, This will enable us tu pass throu,crh the neriod of disturbed conditions in Eng-land, due to to the hill.

"h bank ute and to some extent to the pOlitical situation.
and some extent we shall then have time to consider whe ther it will be expedient to issue a perman ent loan.

to undertnl,e any such tl1e ordinary falls due.

In of '!\fr.

W. F. MACLEAN.

Are the treasury bills issued in London or here?

In London.

l\tT.

FIELDING.

I have en deavoured, Mr. Speaker.

to present con cisely what I regard as the chief facts and fi!

!ures necessary to the consideration of our finan'cial position.
I cannot hope that all J have said will be received with uni verJ';al appro""l in this House.

because J know that we look at some of these matters from rlifferent points of view; but as we is have all the same good purpose in view, thut of promoting the welfare of Canada, I !im sure that we shall unite in expressing our satisfaction with the happy and pros perous condition of affairs in Canada to It must be a gratification to every day.
good citizen to see so many favourable signs in the outlook of our ·country.

The check which came upon us a year or two agoo may have served a good purpose.

Hap pily it has proved but temporary; happily it hns not remained with us; and already there is a' rapid recovery.

We have.

as we all Imow.

a country of magnificent resour ces.

We have known it long; but we have needed two things-population and capital.

these things are now coming to Both of Population is coming from all Canada.
quarters of the earth.

It is coming in a very large degree from the neighbouring republic, and we rejoice in the character of the immigrants that country sending back to Canada.

Population is coming also from the old world.

We can well rejoice that this long desired growth of population is coming to us.

We have also desired cap ital.

and that is coming to us too.


There never was a time when there was more interest in Canadian affairs throughout the world than there is to..day, or a greater willingness on the part or capitalists to in ,"est in Canada.

This is Canada's growing time.

We have had growth in population, growth in wealth, growth in Canadian unity, growth in national status in the eyes of the world, growth in our sense of responsi bility as citizens of a -great empire.

In all this growth we have reason to rejoice.


But, that this is better than all, we feel what things to is but the beginning of greater come.

To us as trustees of the Canadian people has been given the duty of moulding the destinies of the CtlDodian Dominion at.

a time ,,,hen it has a formative character.

Let us see to it, in tlu!

midst of our party times there rises above strife, all the dominant note of a patriotic desire to do whatever is possible to promote the progress.
prosperity and happiness of the Canadian people.

that at all Hon.

GEORGE E. FOSTER (North To ronto), Mr. Speaker: With the concluding remarks of the Finance Minister (Mr. Field ing).

I find myself, 85 1 am sure do all hon.

in complete accord.

members on this side.

It i!.'

a fact that sometimes party differences are exaggerated and party spirit leads to a one-sided and even unfair presentation of matters befOJ'e the House.
But when, apart from these things, we come to contem plate the larger questions of countr~ and of empire, I hope that we may alwavs be in a position to reciprocate the sentiment that.

has fallen from the lips of the Min ister of Finance.

I notice that the hon.

Minister of Finance appeared a little more cheerful when he rose to present his bud- 47 ar:'I8!D EDmoK.