Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1698067888919.pdf (Guyana)
[j 1 9 if/ mnb1J1·.• [>re.•ent LEOISJ.ATIVE 00UNCIT,.

The C'onRlif.nt·fon G:20 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

en1ra).

The Hon.

A. E. Seeram, (Eastern Dem­ JVednesclay, 24th Aiignst, 1932.

The Hon.

Jung Balmdur Singh (Dem­ erara-Esxeq uebo ).

The Council mPt pursuant to adjourn­ the Hon, C. DouGLAS­ ment, Hi,.

Excellencv J ONES, C.M.G., the Government, the· Offker Admini;;tel'ing in tlw Chair.

Pl'e.�ident, The Hon.

F. J. Seaford (N omi1rntc:l Unol:lici,Ll Membc•1·).

ThM Hon.
ThM Hon.

C. F,n'l',H' (Nomi1mtcd UnoAi­ cial Meml.Jel').

PRESENT.

The Hon.

Peer BiLcchus (vVestern The Hon.

the Colonial W.Bain Gray, M.A., Ph.D (Edin.

), (Oxon), (Acting).

Major Secretary, B. Litt.

Berbico).

The Hon.

the Attorney-Genet':tl, (Acting.)

F. J. J. F. McDowell Mr. MINUTES.

The minutes of the meeting of the Council held on the 23rd August, as and circulated, printed were confil'med.

The Hon.

F. Di.1s O.B.E.

(Nominated Unofficial Member).

The Hon.


J, S. Dash, RS.A., Director of Agriculture.

MEMBER SWORN.

LL.B.

The Hon.

E. F, Fredericks, (Essequebo River).

The Hon.

W. A.

D'Anclrade, Comp­ trollm· of CuRtoms.

The Hon, M. B. G. Austin (Nominated U not!icial Member).

scribed The following to the Oath :- lVIr.

'\V.

Francis, Member took and sub­ Government Analyst.

The following was laid on the PAPER LAID.

document Major the Hon.

J. C. Craig, D.S.O., table:- M.E.I.C., Director of Public Works.
An ,ual for u:,:; Ila·,k ltepon of the Pust Offic11 Savings 1 ( Colonicil Sec1·etciry) .

The Hon.

E. F. McDavid, Colonial Treasurer (Acting).

The Hon.

B. R. ·wood, M.A., Dip.

For.

(Cantab.

), Conse1·v, ,ttor of Forests.

The Hon.

J, Mullin, A.I.M.M., F.S.I., Commissioner of Lands and Mines.

GOVERNMENT NOTICE.

Notice was given that n.t the next meet.

to ing of the Council introduce leave would be a.,;kcd and lmve read a first time A Bill to amend the Customs Ordinance, :- The Hon.

Q.

B.
Q.

B.

De Fl'eitas, 1YI.R.C.S.

Surgeon-General Cha(>tcr of motor v...!1icles drive (A ttoi·ncy· 33, in order to prohibit tile imporl :i.tion constructed witb :i. left hand (Eng.

), (Acting).

L.R.C.P.

(Lond.

), Genei·al).

____ The Hon.

E. G. '\Voolford, ICC.

(New Amsterdam).

The Hon.

N. Cannon (Georgtown North).

The Hon.

A. V. Crane, LL.B.

(Lone!.)

(Demerara River).

The Hon.

Percy C. Wight, O.B.E.

Central).

(Georgetown The Hon.

J. Eleazar (Berbice River).

The Hon.


J. Gonsalves (Georgetown South).

TnE-CONSTITUTION.

lVIr.

CANNON: I should like to have a from you, sir, on my an pronouncement yesterday to give the Council .

request to conect a mis-statement I furnished to the Con,:;titution.

the Colonial opportunity which was made in the House of Commons in relation requested, tary with the information, to :1sk you to a.llow copy of Hansard of the House of Com­ mons relating :- July.
It is as follows to the incident As Secre­ and I propose on the l�t me to read a typewritten 521 1'he Constitiition24 AUGUST, 1932.

Education and Labo,ii· 5 22 Mr. Mander: I want to ask the Under Secre· I ask Your Ex:cellency to sa.y whether right.. Constitu­ a special a memorial ColouiP.s.
(,ui,1Dn, of Jiritisll abont diff.,rent with the Secretary with and not in accordance some of the democratic nPerls, aud as thfl result of an grent actually The new Coustit11tion held a few yAar, ago a uew Constitution of State and to which ha,l been drawn np tary some Q trnslions First Lhere is Bril isl!

Guiana.

Fur a nnmLer of years that Colony e"joyed tion with wide powers.

It was found to be rather cumbersome the Colony's enquiry was mt up in 1928.

B11t that does not seem to have put the watter '!


'here is very dissatisfaction.

withdrew powers that the people had got, at any rate for the time being.
I understand that on ,Jnly 6 of 11st Geor;ie­ year a large 1,ublic meeting wns held at at which a resolntioa town, Demerara, was of three passed that a deputat1011, consisting citizen� be seat over shoul,l to co11fer prese,,t in ihc Colony, setting out their profound dissatisfaction the DP.W Cunstitution, and a desire that [urth�r actnal amendment proposals should be.
Here is one exam pie of the sort of thing they complain Legislathe of .19:28 had come iuto force, 28 occasions unanimom wishes of all the Elected Members present on those occasions.

whether any reply has been sent to their request to be done in the matter and for a delegation I know no action has been t-&keu.

The Colony is in a bad way economica.11 State grant.

I am sure tlut anything; are able Goverumeut giving satisfaction feelings of say now.
siuce the uew Constitution on no bwer than the .V &ml iu receipt of a Lhat the to say with regard to as Lo what tbose 11wend111euts di,l the Governor over-ride the peoph there it would be wise to should be made, including with the state of affairs under of.

I.t was stated that in the held to the very sLrongly to come here.

As for as for somet bing I do uot know Council, * Mr. Mander: Can the right hon.
Gentleman * • * at l hat time, it clid not receive wnch say anything Guin.nu P British in reply to my question about Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister: I think the sng· was thut a Committee should cowe o,·er i:-eRtion to this country.

I looked into t hn.t some time ago, aud I foun,l that when a motion was pnt forward suµport in gestion little come here at the public expense.

Mr. Ma.oder: lt bas the snppurt llril ish Guiana..


I thiuk the sug­ very was ma.de, trough it bas re ·eived should of the whole Elected Members of the House anc.l of a very large public meeting at George�own there, that a Committee support .

Sir Philip Cuuliffe-Lister: [ I biuk tlrnt the would be given this House ,Lit opportunity to contradict be ghd to know whether we are iLt liberty to do so now.
that statement, and I shall to those question,; Tm, PRESIDENT: It was only yes­ terday the point was rnised and the hon.

Member tabled some question:;.

The m1:swen; will be pre­ pared and given in due course.

The papers with reference refened to in the extract from HiLnsard were only sent to me to-day and I have not had an opportunity to consider them.

will be given the hon.

An opportunity Member to move a motion.

to the matter Mr. CANNON: My friend the hon.


Member for· Berbice River has a motion to move on the subject.
Mr. ELEAZAR : I give notice of the following motion :- constitution Where1s the political in 19�8 for the Colonial by the peo,,Je and undesired was uawelcomed of this Colony and has led to grave diEsati�­ fa.ction Colony ; amongst His Majesty's of 1891 constitution subjects iu tLis substituted And whereas by reason of the pre,ent iorm the economy necessary of constitution rehabilitate not be effected, His Vla.jes·y's greatly retarded: the Colony's to can.

linanei'l!
linanei'l!

position of in the Colony is nud the material prog,·ess said subjects Be it Resol!Jed,-Tha.t this Connell respect.
the 8ecretary to direct the local Uovernmeat of 8ta e for the to me,n her;; t.o draw up the outli11e uf this Council consisting a11d not more th tn folly re'lnests Colonie;; appoint a Comm;tteo of not fewer thnu live elected three olhci,d of the c ,nstit suiLab\e la: e,1 to afford l'Ji� Mnjesty's re 1son·tble the Culony nuder prOJJCr and [mperial compatible with the as pin· ioni and well-being in general.
of the inh1bitants rn ia the Government of •afegna.r.Js 10 tile ueeds of the Colony an l calcu \uter s s aurl in su ·h a form ai is p"-rticipati sa.itl subjects of Colouia 11 ·.ion which uHLy be c,iusidere,l ORDER OF THE DAY.

EDUCATION AND LABOUR.

happens to be wrong on that hon.

Gentleman puint.

The vole in th� House did not receil-e tlie wl,ole support.. My hon.

Friend tells me it wa� 14 to 6, and tl,at was, as !t watter of fact, my ncolL cliou.

The hon.
The hon.

Gentleman, perhaps, is !IOI, a Loan-iu-:iirl w;1s £2�0.uuo J do not thi" k, in LLose circumstances, be a reasonn ble propo�ition in the Constitution think it would be a re :sonible money is so mnch required, spend public money in 01·der mittee should come here.

shonld take place I do not when proposition, that we should awe.re that this Honse is nrnki,,g of £120,000 last year-to Br,tish Guiana, and it would that any �lter9.tion Esseq11ebo, (c) Berbice?
tow11), throughout for employing this Je�r-1 think it that such a Com.

by Govern me� t?

ques­ Mr. SEERAM asked the following tions of whieh he had given notice:- 1.How many U:d ucation Officers are em}Jloyed �-l::low many of theso.

ate emplo.ved (b) Demerara (excluJing in (a) Gcorge­ 3.How many persons have been prosecute l the Colony for the pa.st five years ; (a) of nine IJ:g,st Indian children 023 Bills 24 AUGUST, 1!)32.
Compassionate Allowance 524 years of age, (bl of twc:h·e years of age dnring school hours 9 4.

When will Government prochim the 8:,iuc ,_ tion Ordinance in order that the saitl Ordinance operative Gazette, of 1932, in the O.fftcial may be 'l'HE COLONIAL SECRETARY (Major Bain Gra.y) replied as follows:- 1, Three.

Two resident one in New Amsterdam.

in Georgetown and 2.

(ci) and (h)-One of the officers rnsiilent for duty iu Essequebo wl,en Georgetown) Georgetown and Demerara (excluding arnilable.
is detailed in (cl One.

3.

Th, re bn.ve been rnveral reports of employ­ have been prosecnted.

ment of children pe,suns prosetutions 1·lt,yen gives details under both (al and (b) bnt no Although no e111- table have talrnn place, seve,al l.tav" I.teen warned.

The toll11wing :- 1927 ... l!J2S l!J:!

!l 1930 1931 issued.

No.

of warnin<:(s !)

Nil 9 6 9 A Bill to rncnre the Exhibition proµortion con.neaten of British therewith.

A Bill to amend the Cinema!


Fihm, and for of a ce1tain purpo3es 05, by making-prol'i5iou Lmen t au<l duties of Censors nanre, Chapter I the avpoiu (A ttorney.(,<enerai).

A Bill to amen<l the Animals ( llreed and con­ ograph Ordi­ for tagious Diseases) Ordiunnce, 27'!,.

Chapter of Sugar for the control A Bill to provicle S• atioos.

Experiment .

A Hill to amend the Rice (Export uy ,,rovidi11g Ordinance, l!J:{O, of rice for �xport and t.he maldng of Regulation iu connection s (Professor therewiLh Dash).
A Bill to allow and coo firm certain Gradiug) for t.he blencliui,: ture incurred of December, in the yeqr ended thirty.first 1931. expendi­ day A Bill to amend the Stamp Duties ( \1aoage· Chapter 43, wiLh respect to menu) Urdiuauce, the caocellatiou stamps.

of adhesi,·e A Bill to ame11d the Life ..\ssarn11ce Com.

that 1930, by i,rod.Jiug panies Ordin,,nce, registered Trade Unions are not rnbject therfof (Mr. ]1.oDavid).
Fri, nd ly Socie1 ies and registered to the provisions Notice was given that at the next or a meeting of the Council it would subsequent be moved that these Bills be read the second time.

1930, an Official direct parents, ln October, was published empl11yers, 1 ive sections Copies of this notice were sent to all est:.Lt managers.

mg the at,tentivn and guardians to of the EduMtion Ordinance.
notice of all the rd,1- Gazette e in obtaining is experienced Difficulty evidence upon which to institute In addition to the reluctance sufficient proceedings.

to of parents when tbe child is earning give information wages, there is often difficulty the correct East Indians move:- in ascertaiuing where age of the child especially are involved .

4.

1t is iatcnded 01di­ that the Edn�ation ive <luriug nance of 1932, shall become opera!

tl1e nexL Echo.>!
tl1e nexL Echo.>!

1933. year, probably on 1st January, COMPASSIONATE ALLOWANCE.

THE COLONIAL SECRETARY: I to Mese�ge No.

16 of the Administedug approves of the grant That, ,vith reference the Officer this Council 1932, trom Go"ernment, of a compassio11a.te M.irn l:Jertrnde assistant Catholic meat, 1st June, 1!J3i.

::Schou!, allowauce Irene l:lishop, of $15 a mouth to nncerLificn.tecl Romau teacher of Gliarlestown from the elate of her retire.
'l'he following BILLS Bills wel'e l'ead the first The circumstance8 of thi8 ca:-ie tti·e fully set out in the l\1ess .. ge mid I form .. lly move the motion.

time:- A Bill to re1 eal the A. Fawcett Pension l!J32.

Ordinance, i\fr.

DIAS seconded.

A Bill t,o repeal tl1e Pln.ntation Shops Ordi­ Secretctry).

156 (Colonial nance,<.

ha1,ter A Bill to make provision and use of motor vehicles.
A Bill to make provision for the regnlat i,m for the repayment by Gov­ of amounts advanced to Go,•ernment ernn,ent to defray the cost cf the operation aud maintenance works constrncted such works of tLe Drainnge 1927, Ordinance, A Bill to authoriEe and irrigation of drainage to before the .arr•lication and Jrrigaiion in Council to reduce the total cost of works in certain Urdi.
cases under the Dninage and Jrrigation relief nance, 1927, for lhe purvose of affording in the proportion unrl to be pnitl by proprietors local authorities.

the Governor Mr. WOOLFORD : Is it intended $15 a month 8ha.ll be p,tid from month to month and year to year until the person dies?

If that is the inteniion in the motion.

expressed it is not that THE COLONIAL SECRETARY: That It i8 intended to be ti annuity.

It io: in the uature of is the intention.


permanent a pension but it is described passionate allowance.

as a com­ my8elf to Mr. WOOLFORD : I pt·efei.· see the words " a,n annual com1)as;;ionate .. 525 Compnssiouale Gratuities 2± AUGUST, 1 !l3:2.

J•arcels 526 Regniatio11s allowance i.ndie,Lte dies.- of $15 a mouth" or word8 to that it is to last until the pe1'sorl Name.. Name oi School to Grat11ity be Paid.

of lll,ter on we might find ;;omc oflicial Mi'.

CRANE : I think the hon.


Mernher t in ca,lling the tLttention of this motion, i� quite col"rec the House to the verbi,Lge bcci.m;;e "ivJ-io is cu.Heel upon to interpret pu1'pose of m,Lkiug it is uot all anmml pu.ymcnt.

that thi,; is the fol"m to bo re1:1tt"icted to a ::;iugle it for the that payment claiming lump surn p,Lyment.

My view i8 Mr,.

A. llovell l\fips C. C. La Ros• �ow Am,terdarn Con­ l)l111lb School grrg ,tiC1ual Ca thol c Scho l rough Rnm•n $ 180 120 arn also of this c,Li,e to.
I reforred The circum;;tances set out in the M:e::is.ige will not tiLke up 1,he time of the Cow1cil by rcpe,Lting p:L1·ticular information.

them unless there is any point 011 whieh I c.:an give lVIr.

ELEAZAR: I secou<l the moticiu.

1\lr.

FRED.l!.

:lUCKS : I very much what has fallen from the two :,my the but prnc­ but I certainly di::;sociate which would keep these matLlc'r;; lmVL' been dPalt with form.

I would lmve :mid nothing appreciate hon.


Members, myself from u.nytlting this pen,on from her mouey any longer.

It is true one can constructively motion miglit have been clearer, tic,Llly i11 t,J;is but for tl10 fact tb:Lt the hon.

Member for Demcrarn River lms :mgge::;ted t,Jmt the motion shoulrl be withheld for some :Lllll'ltdrne11t.
hccn without and while I ,tppreuiu.te cality should bo J"emoved would be doHe if tho motion i::; pa:;::;ed a,; it is tind there i::; no forthrr · th,Lt every techni­ This woman ,Lnd others lrnve the money for three month:; s1.:hool.

had to k<·ep ,;chools tlmt she lms been in ,L Government l::lhe wa,; OllL' of my co11tt'rn­ :Miss L,i Rose lrns bce11 ,L teaulwr al I he1· life, no.twithstandi11g only 11!

ye,u·s tcachi,\g u.ided pornriP8.


Tn tho:;P <fay,; tlie ,LuthoritiC'� by law and p:iy the tP:tchers For u. long in au pp1·iod esbLtc sc.

:hool ,Lt EvNto11.

She is now 60 ye;u-s w,L�' to giv" her, iw;tea,d pl'll::iion lu,;tcad of a lump sum I iLm suggesting $10 a mouth during her lifetime.

of ,L gratuity, of her life.

of age ,Lnd Government might Miss La Rose was eng,Lge<l for the balu.11ce tlwm,;elvcs.

see its ,L T1rn COLONIAL SECRETARY: I ,LID uu.1mot be adopted.

PV<·ry good deby.
PV<·ry good deby.

e1;t,Ltes' Mr. ELEAZAR : I u.m going to suggest tlmt the people dealt with iu the Hext motion be put in the same ctLtegory aH iu tl1i:, and given u. pension rnther than ,L grntuity.

1'lrn PRESIDENT: I think the objec­ tion c.:an hl' met by tlic !<UbsLituLion wol'ds " $180 pc�· ,Llllmtu" "$15 a month."

for the words of Lhe Tim COLONIAL l::iECnETARY: I filO\'C tlrnt ,Lmendmc11t.

l\Io tion, as amended, agteed to.


afrnicl that sugg<·stion This teu.cher the st,Ltutory period, ,;ible to give her ,L pension 01· a com­ pas,:;ionatc has served for IC'ss than half so it is quite impos­ allow1Ln1.:e.

1\fr.

8EERAJ\'l: I support the iLppcal M:emhcr.

1\1 iss La Ro,;e lms srrviuc the requt•8t than Miss Bishop ,L11d I m1rl is ,L reasonable of the l,011.

gre,Ltl!r t,\iink equit,iblc om•.

appreciatP but I am afraid Tm� PRES1DENT: I Yicws of hon.

1\frn1l.e1·s I uanuot accq,t the suggestion.


open a very widl' fi<'ld for requests from people in ,L simibt· position lrnve been already dec.:ided.

whose ca::ies It would tlw CuMP,1 S!

:HONA'L'll O 1·:A'l'Ul'rJ ES.

Motion agrl:!ed to.

movc:- wiL:1 refereuc,, TuE COLONIAL SECRETARY: I Tl,1it, .

Lu Message No.

17 of the 193:!, f,om !he ()Hien Admin'etedog (Jc,,·, ru,u, Ht, this Conncil t> lbe uuder,neu teacl.
!ers ag,inst of com1 a•sionate gratuities s of the grant their namrs :- approv1 (IS set out P.�RCELS Rt:c:ur,A·r,oNe.

THE COLONIAL l::lECRETARY: I to rates of rPhLting JUove tlntt HeguhLtiorn; pnst,tg<' 011 p,tt·•·t·IK Weist Indies, be made.

t,n l\'[a1·ti11ique, Fl'euch tione,l unce1tilicated as•istant Mr. DIAS 8ecop.ded.

5 2 7 j,j otiorl 24-AUGUS1', I 932.

-TiM 1lfitciieli Trust 528 The Council a.nd went into Committee dis­ without of the regulations approved cussion.
receivin� qnes• ions �ri,:ng the will.

bP.11cfit� umln the will, 11nd other 0111 of 1 he 1utcq reiatiou of The Council resumed and the regulations were passed.

Mo·rort Vi,;mcr,Es BILL, THI, COLONIAL SECRETARY: I to withdmw "A Bill to for the rnguhLtio11 and use A new Bill on the am instructed make provisioll of motor vehicle;,."

subject :mbmitted has been publi>1hed and will be to the Coun<.:il.

Bill with<lrnwn a<.:<.:ordingly.

BILL.


APPUOPRIA'l'ION Mr. Mc DAVID (Colonial Treasurer)� of "A reading of the Legislative I beg to move the se<.

:ond Bill to appropriate in the last session cil."

This Bill provides ity to expend the money granted Council.

It follows therefore it is not necessary about it.

the supplies granted Coun­ author­ statutory by this the usual course, to say mucl1 and Mr. MULLIN seconded.

Question put,;, ,md agreed to.

Bill rea.d the second time.


The Courwil resolved mittee a11d considered clause itself the Bill claUlre' by <lis<.:u.�;,ion.

without into Com­ The Council resumed.

Notice mL;, given that tLt the next· meet­ ing of the Couucil the Bill be read the third time (llfr.

Jfc David).

it would be moved that To e�plain this motion I have to touch was recited for the Founda­ In the preamble on the legal history natives of the Colony of sex.
The adminis­ but in 1896 the Judges any longer De Saffon gave cer­ as to the class of persons distinction of the Trust was vested in the shortly and legal posi­ tion of this Trnst, and we have to go back to 1784-when-De Saffon made a will that is known to all of us.

In his will, which was written in French, tain instructions who were to benefit, without tration Court of Justice, of the Supreme Court refused to nominate the orphans tion.

Regulations were made by the Court of Policy, 5 of 1904-was passed.
that Ordinance the will and the beneficiaries to be children have very grave doubts indeed words were correctly wo1·d:s" bon1 of lawful fectly definite judicially construed and they exclude by subsequent meaning should not like to pronounce thi11k to pro­ nounce on them is a French lawyer.

The question when we come to consider Mitchell.

March, 1862, and Mitchell days after.

The material will is:- I the only person competent Ordinance and ultimately of a translation of are interpreted I wedlock."
those whether The interpreted.

"have a per­ They have been many times in England, of the words· used in the will I This will was made on the 24th is of <.

:onsiderable matrimonium.

the will of Walter " born of lawful importance died twenty '.l'he actual meaning.

wedlo<.
:k b�cause portion of the all cases of legitimation 1 reqntst est shall be :i.t the di�pn,,1 of the Colony as 1 have that the Legislature continued wen1 ioned for a period will have the investment of fifteen hereiubefore and yea··s horn my death when the ca.pi1al 10:-e, ture of the Colony in o· der to form or found a. a Ch111ch in this Colony similar rneot though not with the s11mt exclusion uuder 8irnilar tile Legi8)a.tm arrangement Go,·ernor but rules for such pnrpJse a.ppoiutiog the e my res id nary IJ�ir lea.ving of the to the superior judgment aud Court of Policy.
to the Salfon EsLablish­ or other chi.ritable of the Legislo.

ColJ,·gP.

institution TnE Mr•rcHELL TnusT.

THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Mr. : I beg to move the following McDowell) motion:- 'l;Jiat, I have been unable to tra<;e any regula­ wilh 1e'erence to Mes,age No.

19 of a.od sulrn,itte<I 193:!, frorn the Ulficer Administning m�n•, 1his Gnnncil approves prepared for a le:.
;al ilecis'ou lion of the will of Walter Mir.chell, at time of whether on the que�iion fon of �hose Lirth is a nece�rnry the Govern­ of a. ca;c bein� to the Snpr<>me Court as 10 the con ct interpreta· le!

:(itimac.v q,nali�cat decessed, tions until Regulation foundation a girl born in lawful or guardian cumstances."
that that regulation is in poor or necessitous My own personal cir­ is opinion quite is not justified, we come to the year 1928 .. 3 (a) says : "A Mitchell may be hdd only by a boy or wedlock, whose parent 529 Motion 24 AUGUST, 1932.
-Tiie jl{ itciieil 1'riist 5 30 not in the ordinary sem;e to and meant it� supreme body to make come before of that chite as to what the and the c1dvi::;er Had this que:;tion have said that Mitchell to make legitimacy the duty of exercising and the will says " similar " Mitchell which ha1, no juridica.l could not enjoy the benefits.
that illcgitiumte On of De Saffon's (Hear, though not with " Lawful wedlock having the legal opinion lawyer in this Colony, and I cannot agree that the and Court of Policy there of a very I should never a cardinal apart from the translation will, by the terms of the will itself hear).

We have to go to the will for instructions, the Saffon Establishment the same exclusion."

seems to be one of the conditions excepted.


me without seeing the regulations, without brilliant unhesitatingly intended point of his will (Hear, hear).

There has as in the case of the been no Ordinance, Saffon Trust, and there has been given no power to the Legislative regulations.

regulations Legislative law-making of a body of private trustees.

position That seems to me to be the legal position.

The hon.
The hon.

Member for New Amsterdam has given notice of a motion by which the whole thing should be regularised Committee.

question ruling for our guidance there is a limitation children would do the same thing as if we were pri­ vate trustees administering a will and had the right to apply to the Court for direc - tions.

That is 11,ll this motion is for.

I am not sure that these are not ultra vires.


The Council body but is simply in the a ppears to admit of no doubt th,tt illegi t imacy was to be no bar to any the foundation which he child enjoying In 1928 we was about to establi::;h. find the Government casting about for some interpretation word:; mec1nt, gave it as his opinion children the Governor ,md Court of Policy was impo,;ed judgment Governor the Legislature of the term but as a body of trnstees.

is a distinction found,ttiou.


and what it will in the form of a statute, should hc1ve done in 1928 was to pas:; ,t statute.

tions ,ire ultrci them not as y,ltra vires but as a nullity because regulations.

ernment i,; advised, individual private go to the Supreme Court to interpret those doubts.

It is not the custom or to suggest proper procedure in legislation have arisen should go to the Law Courts to settle them.

Doubts are not settled judicial decision; doubts.


There is a principle that where doubts exist ish Constitution body that sets them it is the legislative what the Legislature say:; right, because is the law cannot be denied by any man.

than thi:; is no other authority '!

'here House to set at re1,t the doubts which have arisen.

My opinion is that the regula­ vires.
I pref Pr to regard as· to whether or not to legitimate aii though it were c1 administering a will, to where doubts that Government merely confirm8 of the Brit­ Mr. CRANE: This matter was brought I think that in a disputed is the Supreme Court, which no power was given to make like this the only body to give a Doubts having arisfln Gov­ The Legislature in this case is not a by judicial expresse8 decision its by a It credit to be decided by a round robin, to the Supreme th11,t it has not adopted Members of an opportunity to the notice of Elected Members by me11,ns of a round robin, which asked we were prepared to sanction the whether proposed application Court.
My view is that the matter is too important which deprives of hearing what each other has to say.

for good inten­ I give Government tions but suggest to go to the the right course in proposing Supreme Court for an interpretation of the will.
We have two exclusion8 in the will of De Saffon, one that it should not and the extend to illegitimate ·whatever is other to persons the precise of De Saffon's will it is clear that there is an exclu::;ion in respect Mitchell lines my bounty must be disposed similar "Df; but not with the same exclu:,iou."

comes along and says " No.

On interpretation of colour.


children It This House is being asked to abdicate to of and to commit them to a we are going to admit legitimate to which I pay the gre,ttest and re1,pect, its functions tribunal but which I respect­ defernnce in authority fully submit is inferior this Hou:,e. I claim that the question whether or illegitimate this foundation decided leave the Legislature leaving judgmeut Policy."

accept the interpretation Is the Legislature framing regulations.
to be asked to incur expenditure to get au of the Governor aud Court of to In 1928 Government of thi:; House in by thii, House.

The will say:; " I heir my rnsiduary children is one of policy the arrangement to the superior to the benefit of decided to be of illegitimate children.

But 531 111:otion 24 AUGUST, 1932.

-1'he Mitchell Trust532 waf\ to of making grnnts t0 carry out a Trnst precisely a verv that if it is question.
the intention of the party creat­ By his will Mitchell that his foundation of the person creating of the matter you can get.

which is less valuable of that Trust intended as has been the case.

'rhere to the the Trust.

to me tha.t what Government from the of this House, you ca,n get.

Thci hon.

Mem­ ht1s raised to it as nearly 11s possible than an of this House?
I object to it is quite right in saying that out the inten­ is not carrying but I think he will agree out it should opinion enactment on the geound that it is not the best leg:ci.l determination I view it with geeat jealousy point of view of privilege mid also on the grnund that it is not the best decision ber for New Am'lterdam impurbu1t never intended be used for the purpose to students is much in the contention impossible ,1s the creator equity will al ways em1ble the trnstee administer intention It a.ppet1t·s h11s been doing is to carry out as neat' as po,;sible ing the Trust.
The hon, Member for New Amsterdam Government tion of the Trust, that if it is to be cal'l'ied be carried expressed intention mit that all that is required moment is that Government what it considers in dealing whether is brought that �hould be the policy or whether· it This is a public in some m,1nnet·.

be revised to make a Trust, but if I u.m to be ,1llowed .�uggestion who t1re intel'ested b.� limited merely to When the L3gitimacy thtl House I was the champion mate children.

whether i,.
whether i,.

; entitled hands of Government, should prevail ment of public benefits.

responsible birth ,ind I will be no pat·ty illegitim·.i.te good educmtion.

should pi·epare own opinions Council to the out as neatly as possible of the donor.

I sub­ A child is not for the circumstances of its to depriving with the miLtter.
here we will discuss I suggest that Government a draft Bill embodying and giving the Governor-in­ in it do not desire it to legitimtLlie w,1s before Ordi11:1nce of illegiti­ at the present should set out it is th,1t the public 11t large to the same treatment 11t the when it comes to the enjoy­ ought to be the policy power to make rules.
born in we�llock In my opinion or· out of wedlock of the benefit of 11 children children, Then when it a child its and no distinction Mr. FREDERICKS: This is a matter and I think the of public impol'tauce motion before the Council should be have for yea1·s to ask Gove1·nment delayed until the othe1· by the hon.

has been dis­ for New Am�terdam Membet· cussed.

If the matter goes before the Supreme Cout't that ma.y not be the end to of it.
I am fot·ced a:lopt the course I have suggested, this matter being of the importance it is.

been The.,e scholarships by all and sundry, enjoyed sectioni; Cel'tai11 be denied the 1·ight motion of the hon.

Member should be given There is no reason why a child preference.

who wins the scholarship should not enjoy it until six months ask that the motio.1 I ag.1in Member be given preference decision of the community are to them the or a ye:1r t1ftenvards, of the hon.

before a at on this motion.


and if suddenly of enjoying is arrived Mt'.

GONi::lAL YES : S;:i much has been for Demernm is and perhaps to indicate " a fully considered would not be what lawyers point to he considered it on this motion.

The motion the views of the of one or two would be put by one party only, unless it is settled the would one "from the point by the hon.

Attomey-Genernl would be appointed somJ other person and argue ,mid by the hon.
Member tlat it will be River· on this question the ditticulty of sufficient deciding of the hon.

Member for New Amsterdam is one which will afford the House an of getting opportunity legal Members, laymen who might be able to assist them.

The principal thiit if we decide to go to the Supreme Court to h:we the question judgment c,�ll of view that the at·guments fonv<11·d suggester!
that somebody rept·esent the othel' side of the Supt·cm� favournbly Bill i.� brought it does not necessarily opinion by all the Members of this House, who would have their own views in p3l'hap� of the Court's interpretation.
respect There is also the question regulations de,1l of time and energy could be saved by of the suggestion the adoption to consid,Jt' a Committee when thtit Committee repor-ts the Council with tlmt view and thet·e feel not satisfied is r.ny doubt in our minds we could still of the Supreme then get the decision Court.

whether the ar-e in order ot· not.

A good to give effect to it, follow that that Even if the quei;tion of the Court would be accepted view and a to Government's the question.
Court decided the matter.

If to appoint forward to Mr. SEERAM : I am supporting the 533 Motion 24 AUGUST._ Hl32.

-'J.

'he J,titchell Trust 534 he given to the that preference sugge,tion motion of the hon.

Member for New Amste1·dam.

I£ I were a,ske·I to say ,vhether riot."

under the will I would say "cei•tainly illegitimacy was an exclusion looked.

Mitchell never intended to exclude natural children of his bequest (Hear, hea1·).
from the benefit of 01' like to it occurs to Mitchell Scholars intended to several of Walte1· I shoulcl It a.ppears w,1s cleal'ly of this Colony, that a pel'iod by De l:faffon.

his intention the p1•eamble to me th11t the1·e that no one ,;hould �part from the legal THE PRESIDEN'r: of the laws, imd it· only whether they was, and I but he C,Lme here and m:Lde ,L in the case of Walter Mitchell.
and how men the of Onli­ from the la.Ht Mr. WOOLFORD: I have very definite and I am ve1·y that those abuses should not be of the Colony.

Then of his will goes on to of sex, but diffl:'t' work :i,ppro,wh of that heat· the hon.

Member fo1· New Am-,;ter­ dam on the suggestion that we should take his motion first.

11 nfortunately, nance 5 of 1904 is omitte,d 1•evised edition shows how compile1·s with this entrnsterl From the pl'eamble question.
it t1ppears Ordir1>u1ce were two exclu,;ions First of all, thern was the exclusion anyone who was not !L native of this Colony.

De Saffon was himself of French descent, w:il-1 to little money, ,Lnrl the descen­ benefit natives dants of those who h11d ,1.ssi;;ted him to make good.

His first liruit:Ltion exclusion benefit but natives the interpretation say "without distinction of h1wful wedlock."

neve1·theless was making to me that when Mitchell his will he bore in mind those two exclu­ sions.
Whateve1· has arisen in anybody',; conectne;;s De Saffon's that Mitchell as being correct.

If Mitchell him it would be cleat· chil.drnn illegitima,te only goes to show how c,Heful to be when not k:10wing a.II the facts.

I rlo not think the circumstm1cPs ing the will of W,dter Mitchell in approaching Council at some settlement when he made tlmt will, anrl it is for th:Lt purpoi'le I am inviting whether there should be iL Committee this Council the question.
to deter·mine was his determining factor in settling tion of his will mid the issue to be c1·eated by it, and the chief legisbtive never had an opportunity Mitchell shoul<I he the Legislature :md we would be ;;urrendering privilege,; of it.

views myself both a� to the interpretation that uiay be given to the will of De Saffon as well as the intention Altogethe1· himself.
aspect of the motion itself, me, having reg,1rd to the past administro.­ tion of the Satfon Trnst and the intention of Waltet· Mitchell himself, should be put to what I feel bound to say have been very mM1y abuses of the inten­ tion of De Saffon himself, anxious perpetrated ·It may be ve1·y interesting Members to know that I made enquiries of several M.ichell knew who Walter Mitchell found that none of the beneficiaries under the will w,�s able to tell me who he wai,, whether he was born in the Colony or whern he came from, and under what circumstances he gave this very handsome to the Colony.
was ,1 It would appear that Mr. Mitchell Scotsmr1n De Saffon had been long dead.

As a matter of fact the institution known as the Saffon Institution o:-i its course of instruction, ,111d the general uplift and it seems to me that wlmt W,Llter Mitchell a similar his memorv and t1.lso benefit the same class of persons self witnessed t)e Saffon Institution.

not sufficient such magnitude but he mi1.de the stipuhLtion that for ,L period of fifteen years the capital anrl interest It wa!
'l cleady his intention school should be establislwd as an· incentive and it is greatly the regulations He had it before him.

had that translation th,1.t hP.

meant that be not exdudcd.


It sul'l'ound­ us ju;;tify the Court unle,;,; thi>< of It tlmt we should be the had in his mind was the image of institution that would pe1·petuate THE COLONIAL SECRETARY: A in respect of ti boy of the French trnn;;lo.tion will, thern c,111 be no doubt His bequest was to create an institution maintenance of orphan children, of the Colony one of ou1· mind as to the of and at· the time of his de:1.th had become benelfoi,1ries shall be funded for that purpose.
,LS the S,dfon Institution, that some to his memory to others to do likewise, has had :-1.n opportunity ·of both sexes that he had him­ that the final arbitrntor were made that was over- m:Ly be the doubt th,Lt accepted that of wlmt was in his mind had already started to be regretted the Council to >my the distribu­ of ,uTiving intention t1uestion has a1·isen intended to do l-10.

you h:wf' bequest body h,1s before that when of of if we do not take a·lvant,1.ge interpretation 535 1v.lotion 24 1932.
-1'he 1l{itchell 536 'l'riist AUGUST, who should be starting secondary is and that is the reason why Government with.

asking that the matter be proceeded his course of on tne 1st September, education Mr. WOOLFORD: I am asking that should not press this motion and that I be allowed an Government this afternoon opportunity to move to-morrow.
my motion formally and had greatly improved, then no necessity There is no reason made, slavery had been abolished social conditions and there was therefore for any exclusion.

why this matter should engage the atten­ tion of the Supreme Court when it was the intention that tbe of the henefactor rules should be subject to the superior of the Legislature.

· judgment THE PRESIDENT: I appre1,;i,Lte the remarks of the hou.

1\1.embPr him for what he has sa.id.


I think it would be a very good thing even before the House proceeded Select Committee to have a :my further go into the matter.

and thank THE PRESIDENT: I think it is only any further it should know more right that before the Council commits itself about the whole position.

That being so I am prepared to ask the Colonial tary to move the adjoumruent of the debate and give the hon.

Member for New Amsterdam motion to-morrow.


an opportunity to move his Secre­ Mr. ELEAZAR : I should like to point had not yet been abolished, hence out .

that when De Salfon's will was made slavery the question nent feature late 'eightie,; was a promi­ of illegitimacy of social life.

When in the was the will of Mr. Mitchell THE COLONIAL SECRETARY moved the adjournment of the debate.

The Council thereafter adjourned until the following day at 11 o'clock.