Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697719902560.pdf (Canada)
436 CO~IMONS DEBA.TES.

MARCH 5I are they snd when entitled to go deolaration Mr. PERRY.

I am glad the hon.

member for King'8 (Mr. McIntyre) has brought this motion before the House because we have had great cause for complaint in the County It appearf\ of Prince, which I have the honor to represent.
to me that when the fishermen who claim bounties declare to them, they are and make before magistrates c:Llled upon solemn a the fished tbey have that prescri bed time and taken the necessary catch, no Govern ment 01llcer should be able to declare in effect that those men had taken a false oath.

I hope the hone gentleman who has taken the important ..position at the head of the department will see to it that during the coming Bummer these wrongs will not be perpetrated on the fishermen. ]
agree with the hone member for H.alifax: (Mr. Jones) that the whole f'ystem is liable to be abused; but I conBider it to press very hardly on fishermen that ailer a fil-hermen has gone before a magistrate and sworn that he has1hhed EO long and has caught 80 many pounds of diffrent kinds of fish, that then a fishery officer, who probably does not live within 5 or 6 miles of the fisherman, should take the responsibility of declaring that the fisherman has made a false declaration.
I look upon that as a gross injustice, and I have three cases of this kind I hope it will be remedied.

at Tignish, and this is the third session I have endeavored to get these cases rectified.

to obtain an investi gation by the department so much red.tape procedure has to be gone through that when the small amount is obtained is scarcely worth receiving.

after three or four years, There should be some other means by which these cases The departmeut has now two Commis can be decided.
sioners in Prince Edward bland, a head Commissioner and an afl~istant Oommissioner.

And they should be authorised to judge as to whether fitlhermen applying for the bounties are entitled to them or not.

I hope we shall not bear any longer of such wrongs being perpetrated on the fishermen.

I desire to draw the attention of the Minister to the cases of D. M.cNeill, M. Munn, F. MacLoed, In each of these all of Little Sands, Prince Ed ward Island.
cases evidence was adduced before the fishery commissioner that they had caught the required quantity of fiah, but th~y failed to receive their bounties during 1886.

I have writ ten to the fishery commitlsioners time and again, but have D3ver received any answer from them.

Mr. ROBERTSON.

In order it Mr. TUPPER.

How long ago was it?

Mr. ROBERTSON.

In 18~6.


The fi:;hermen have to give evidence under oath that they are enti tIed to the bounty, and although this was done the fishery commi88ioner I am inform~ paid not the 8lightest attention to the olaim.
ed that the fishery warden felt 80 sore about the matler that he resigned his position, becautle the fishery commis in which it was Sloner had not even answered his letter, shown that the men had fished the necessary time, and had caught the reqUired quantity of fish.

Motion agreed to.

RETURNS ORDERED.

Copies of all petition.


presented to the Government by the residents of the Town5hips of the front of Yonl1~ and the front of E8COtt, in tbe County of Leeds, Ontario, praying that an Act p&8lled by the Local Legislature of the Province of Oatario, aasented to the 23rd March, 1888, to provide for the union of the TOWAShips of the front of Young and froDt of Escott," might be disaUowej.-(Mr.

Taylor.)
Taylor.)

intituled: ·'.An Act Statement showing the amount of expenditure on account of the Oen tr~l Experimental 'arm, from the first day of Jnly, 1888, to the first day of January, 1889.

Also the total cmlt of the Oentral Experimeatal 'arm, to the first day of January, 1889.-(Hr.

HcMiLI&Q, Huron.)
HcMiLI&Q, Huron.)

Return 8howing the amount received by tke Oanadiau Pacific Rail· way Oompany from the sale of the $16,000,000 of Mortgage Bonds which ~he Oompany were by the Act 61 Victoria, chapter a;l, authorised to Is~ue, and.

the p3.ymeot mUI, and to whom IIlade, and for what, b1 the ,lUd oompal1,T out ofIJllola Pl'ooetcll.-(Kr.

Sw.

Marie.)

THE JESUITS ESTATE., BILL.

Mr. BARRON.


I was out of the House a few moments ago when my motion was called in re~ard to copieR of a report and other papers J especting the Je8uits Estates Bill.

It is absolutely necessary that this return bhould be bronght intelligently, to discu8s the down so t.hat we may be able, for MUFkoka (Mr. O'Brien), motion of the hone member therefore, ask that the return be when it is moved.

brought down as 800n AS possible.

I, Sir HECrOR LANGEVIN.


Has the motion been passed?

Mr. BARRO~.

J ask leave to move it now, if there is no objection.

Sir HECTOR LANGEVIN.

I think you had better leave it on the paper.

Sir HECTOR LANGEVIN moved the adjournment or the House.

Mr. MITOHELL.

Is this another effort to cut off the rights of private members?

Motion agreed to; and House adjourned at 6 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMO~S.

TUESDAY, 5th March, 1889.

The SPEAKER took tbe Chair at Threo o'clook.

PRAYERS.
PRAYERS.

ADJOURNMENT FOR ASH WEDNESDAY.

Sir HECTOR LANGEVIN moved that when this House adjourns to-day it stand adjonrned until three o'clock, p.m., on Thursday next.

Motion agreed to.

SUPPLY-THE BUDGET.

Mr. FOSTER.

Mr. Speaker, in rising to make my first financial statement before this Honse, it would not be other.

wise than natural that I should experience feelings of trepi.

dation, and even of timidity.
When I look at the line of men, distinguished Oanadians, who, since Confederation, have had entrusted to them the keeping of the purse-strings of tLis country, men in every C886 of aoknowledged ability and of an experience far greater than my own, when I hltove regard, a8 well, to the responsible nature of the duties which have been devolved upon me, and the fact that every action of the present leaves its impress upon the future, I would if I did not throw be the reverse of serious or thoughtful myself to-day upon the kindness of the House, aDd ask those who are older and more experienced than myself for their generous indulgence, and ask also for the equally generous 8ympathy of th08e who are, in point of years, more nearly my contemporaries and oo-laborers in the work of this Bouse.
The wile and the vigorou8 policy of the preceding yoo1'8, a kindly providence which, during the past year, has not forgotten this, one of her most favored countries, and a growing spirit of confidence in commercial opera tions, have contributed to a fullness of the Treasury, and to the country, a peace and prosperity, general which sel've to make easier the otherwise formidable task which haa flillen to my lot.
Canada to-day, standing in this her majority year, and lookin~ back upon the record of her past, has every reason, I think, to survey that record with pride, and turning towards the future, although it may have ita ddBoulti81 which are to be BurmoUDted, I throughout 1889.

COMMONS DEBATES.

43'1 trust, to the past believe that from tbia same vantage ground ahe has every right to step forward into that future, with fuU aS8uranoe that in it she will find peace, plenty, prosperity and con· tinued greatness.
Standing upon this point of vantage groond, this country asks no concealment of the real fao~ of her record, ahe asks no :flattery, and while she does Dot wish to have concealed from her tho diffioulties to progress in all olimes and in:111 ages, I think incident she is willing to stand by the reoord of faoLs, and whatever merits or demerits my statement may have, I that 80 far 8S it goes, it will have the merit of candour, frankness and plainneBs of statement.
With theBe few preliminary remarks, I beg the indulgence of the Rouse while I proceed to the common·place and not always the pre· interesting ~t&tement with respect sent and the succeeding year.

For the year 1887-98 the statement of my predeoossor was that Customs would yield '22,000,000; Exoise, 86,450,000; Miscel.la~eous, 87,550,000, a total of '36,000,000.
The actual receIpts have been a8 fol· '6,071,486 j Misoel· lows :-Cuswms, 122,105,926 ; Excise, laneous, '7,731,050, or a tobl of 835,908,463 j or leAS than the estimate by '91,536.

This diffJrence in tho actual rt'oeipts, &8 compared with the estimated reoeipts, arises from a falling of in the Exoise of 8378,513, whereas Customs showsan increase of 8105,926, and Miscellaneous, an increase of'181,050.

The following are the principal item~ of in· orease, compared with 1886-97 : - , $ 7,1&2 19 Bra!
!s, and manufActures of Grain of all kinds •••••••• .•••••••.

•.. 21,8!H: 31 37,503 2) Drugs, Dyes, Chemicals and Medicines.

7,358 67 EartbenwlI.re ..nd Ohina .•••••••• 21,134 46 Fruit3 and Nuts, dried 46;5.708 27 iron ..ad manufactures of, an 1 Steel, manufacture of......... 7,9~2 10 Oils, Ooal a'ld Kerosene, and prodncts of .•••• .•.••• Oils, all olher ,.... 19,9~2 30 6G 6 6 3~ .••••.

Paper, and manufactures of .••••_ .••••.

20;863 2l Pickles, 8aucea and Oapers of all kinds...... .•••.. ProTilion.
(But~r, Oh43eae, Lard an1 Meats)............ 57,184 14 2&7,384 36 .•••..

Spirits and Wines................ 255.805 65 Sugar of aU kindl M"I&88el 31, ~2?

18 4,660 23 Sugar Candy and Oonfeotionery Wood, and manufactures of 21,617 48 On the other hand, the following articles show decreased revenues, viz.

: - ••••••••.• ...... .... • .•••••••• •••••• ...••••.

••••••••• .•••• ,... •••••••.

• .••••• .••.•.

••.••.

.••••.


••••••••• ••••••••• .•••.•••• _.. •••• • , tobi.WCO of atl kinds, in('ludin~ snuff, there ie an inOl'ease of 4: 11,439 Ibs., and an increastd duty of S72,36j 30.

Tbe e~.

penditure as e8timated for by my predooessor in offioe, W8S 137.000,000.

The actual expendi\ ure bas bsen Il6,71~,494, a difference of S:Bl,506 on Lhe right "ide, 80 far 8S the ao.

oounts are conoerned.


Sir Charles Tupper estimated there would be 8 deficieD('y of S I,OUO,OOO as bdtween tbe reoeipts and expenditUl'efortbe year 1"lH7.

His6stimate happilywa~ over the mark, and the total dofioit amounts to only 1810,031.

It is, however, to be remembered by the House.


and it will be remembered a8 well by the country, that sIlhough we speak of a defioit in 1887-88 of s-no,mu, we must al80 keep in mind that there has been 8 set-off against the publio debt of81,939,077 as sinking fund and invetltment for interest on sinking fund, so that there is an off:iet against the debt is to 8ay, if of 81,939.077 and a deficit of 8810,031.
That we had not off~ct the debt by the amount named, we would not have had a defioit on tho oonsolidated fund aocount, but a surplus of Sl,12~,Ot6.

Tbe items of aapital expenditure in tbe year 1887-~8 are as follows :- Railwllyl1 and O~ne.ls Public Works Dominion Le.nds .••••.

North·West Rebellion................. $1, '1!

)S,704 963,778 131),048 539,930 .•.•••••.


.•...•.•• .•.•••••• .••..••.• •.••• , Total $l,4.37,460 To this is to be added the expenditure for railway subsidies the Acts, 8l201,0·H, and a redemption of debt, under 83, 185,63~, making It total capita.l expenditure of IS,650, 159.
But as tbe redemption of debt counts on both sidos it does not affect the net dobt, and the statement with reference to the net debt is a~ follow8 :- On 1st J,jly, 18'\7, it amounted to On 1st July, 1888, it amounteJ to..... $217,313,911 23',531,308 ...••• ••••• Increase for the year.......... '7,217,44T That has boon explained by the different items of capital expenditure whioh 1 have read, and this House is now in possession of the factA as to tbe items upon which this capital expenditure was made.
For the year 1888·8!

}, the estimates made by my predeoe~sor were as follows: -That ' .• $12.600,000 Customs would yield Excise would yield e,6~0,000 7,760,000 Miscellaneou.... ..••••••• •••••..• ••••••••• " •••••• •• _ ,... _.. .•••• .••... .••••• .•.••• •••••• TotlLl •.••••••• ,.

•••••••• , .••••• •••.•.•.•••• .•••• .••.•• •.••.

•••••.

•••••••• .••.


•••• Total for eight months '16,303,700 48 19,841 4,693,226 $311,900,000 Up to the 28th Df I'\.. bru.. ry, 1889, the reoeipLs fur the eight months are 88 follows:- OUlwml Excise Milcellaneous Beoks, Periodica.ls, &0, and all other printed matter .••.• $ 4,86 t 89 Arrowroot, Biscuit, Rice, Macaroni, Bran, &c. .••••.
..... ...... 48,836 58 51,120 76 Flour and Meal, of all kinds............ .•••..•.• ••••••••.•• ..•••••• 40415 67 Oarriages...... Ooal and Ooke (dU1iiable) 420,546 89 19,796 39 Oollars, Oul's, and Shirt Front.

197,860 32 Ootton, manufacturel cf..

Fancy Goods .•••_ 73,277 78 Flu, Hemp, Jut.e, and manufactures of................... •••.••.•• 33,847 49 ~.......... ••••••.••.•.

•••.•.

••• ••••• 3'1,910 92 Pruits, green GIUl, and mannfactures of 9,503 63 16,220 33 Gold, 8il"er, and manufacture.
of...... 8,'19 18 Guttapereha, India Rubber, and manufactures of... 13,1~2 22 ~.... .••••• JewflJ1ery .•••••••••_ Leather, and manufacture.

of .•••••••••• 2lS,374 8\ 9,947 10 Oilcloth Silk, and manufa.otures of 32,612 20 do 12,8'16 92 Tin, 71,717 79 Tobacco, do Wool, do 374,914 07 All other dutiAble Irtioles.._.

49,617 06 In the Excise, as I have stated, there was a falling off of '378,613 in duty collected.
The statement shows tbat in 1886-81 the number of gallons of spirits upon which Exoise duty was paid was 2,88~,265 gallons, while in 1887-88 the quantity was 2,405,'116, a difference in quantity of 476,549 galloDlI, givinJ;( a differenoe in revenue of '638,697.94-a very cJnsider"ble falling off, as the Bouse will see.

in the revenue from spirits.


Malt liquors, however, show a de- To be within the mark I will call the amended e~titJlate in upon the above ba8is '38,000,000, a~ oontrasted WIth the cided 188'1-88, as oo.~pared with 42,630,4iO IbB.

in 1886-87, 136 900,000 estimated for last year.

Then with referen~e to the increase being '6,010,027, and the increase in revenue the expenditure: FDr the full year 1887-88, the expendlture being '66,102.19.

In cigars there is an increaae of 4,811,735\ was '36,71~,49t.
From the ht July to 28th February of If we ill Dumber, and.

aD inoreuo in I.Taut of '23,818.68.

<• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • $U,616,766 If we estimate for the remaining four months in this year a revenue equal to the revenue of tbe foor' similar months of 1887·88, there would bd added to the above reoeipt!!
for the eight months, in Oustoms Excise ,....... Miscellaneous......... Whioh will make the amended estimate as follows:- .In the preMnt 'lear ill' o%penditure".. increase the quantity being --- Ou'toms Excise Miscellaneous ..••••••• ••••••••• _....... •••••••.• , 23,533,971 '1,068,143 '1,999, 18~ $ 8,230 271 2,448,a02 3,805,965 48,610,467 Ibs.

~.... .••••••••• • .•••••••• .••••• _ '21,9;2,828, .•••.••.• ...•.•.•• .•••••••• ••••••••• 38,601,294 ...•.
.••.••••• '1S,98~5~8 do do do .•.•••••• Total Total •••.•• ••••.• .•••• __ " • 438 COMMONS DEBATES.

MARCH 5, Tota.l.

53B,985 00 ture, 18~8-89 166,4l6 23 B8,657 69 1,183,4&8 00 net _______ 219,28J 77 61,342 41 1,205 11 6H,443 00 Paid to 31st January, l889.

E~tima.ttld from Feb. 1st to 30th June.

_2,_12_2,_02_3_21 __97_a,_36_J_9.


_3,_094_,3_jt)_'_u It might not be unprofitable to call Railways and Canals Public Works__.... Dominion Lands............ North·West Rebellion..... R ilwliY ~ub81dies.. ltt:demvtion of DebtM.

Total Capital Bxpendi.


add to the expenditure for those eight montbs past, a similar amount to that expended on the four lagt m'lntbs of there think will be sufficient, the past year, whioh I total is to be added to that, 814,397;565, making a upon that baBis of expenditure of 836,37 ',391.
There will be some further Supplem,mtary Estimates to make up for Governor General's warrants and for Bome other expenses of that year, and I think it is safe to say that it wIll be within the mark that tbe expenditure for the present year will amount to 836,600,000 as against esti mated revenue of 83 ~,600,OOO, leaving for the current year, I th'nk, without any probability of doubt, a surplus of 81,900,000.

That, M.r.
That, M.r.

~peaker, I think is a very satisfac· tory 6tatement to be made to tbe House and the country.

It is a condition of things which has not arisen from any increased rate of taxation, but under the very same tariff as th6 preceding year's receipts were based upon.

Conse it shows an increased ability to consume, and quently, therefore an increase in the prosperity of the country.
The capital e~penditure for 1888-bg is estimated as follow8:- C API r AL EX PENDITU RE, 1888-1889. economy and desire to do with as reasonable an amount a9 p08~ible wbich has been 80 eminently manifested by mem· bers on both sides of the HOl1se, I think I may fairly ex pect that the supplementary estimates will not reach an exceedingly high figare.
However, to make an estimate which will be inside the mark, BUpp()~e we say that th e esti mated now brought down shlll be increased to 136,500,000, we shall then have a Burplus for the year 1889·90 of '2,6tr5,.

000.

That, I think, will also be satisfactory to the HOUBe, inasmuch as this estimate is not based upon any increase in the rates of tariff, but simply up')n tbe present rates of tariff, and the general condition of the business of the coun try.
the attention of the House to the items of the estimates brought down, as compared with the estimates of the preceding year, be canse I think they show a fairly satisfactory list of decreases.

The items in which there are increases are not very many, and can be easily explained.
For the public debt, including sinking fund, there is an increase of '.l8,061, because, of couTse, the debt being larger on flccount of the loan, and the sinking fund investments incrells'ng year by year, there must necessarily be an addition.
In Civ.l Gov· ernment there is an increase of '5,107; but the Hons3 must bear in mind that we have transferred this year an item of '13,053 from the immigration vote, where it formerly was, to Civil Government j so that, taking into account that trans· fer as well as the statutory increases which have been pro.

vided for, an absolute saving of some 88,000 has been made.
$ 2,414557 00 $ 358,310 00 $ 2,772,867 00 The total amount of the statutory increases for 1888-89 are 3811,700 <;0 120,702, which, added to the amount of the transfer from the 100,000 00 1,:.105 U immigration vote, makes 833,78j ; from this amount take the increase of '5,107, and the result shows that we have saved, outside of the statutory increaa~s, $28,678 in other items of Civil Government, which, although not a large sum, $7,537,586 23 indicates ~conomy, and, I hope, is but a step in the right direction.
The next increase is in the administration of justice, 8l2,060.

As this is vouched for by my hon.
friend and colleague the Minister of J 118tice, I have no doubt it is a perfectly satisfactory increase, and one which will be quite palatable to the gentlemen of the legal persuasion on I observe, never object both sides of the House, who, to an increase in the salaries of This, is not caused by an increase in the salaries however, is owing to appointments of new $234,531,358 00 of the judges, but - - - - - judges, and 8180 to the expense incurred in the establish- $~36,095,IU 34 ment of the new Exchequer Court.
There is a slight in- - - - - - orease in Dominion Polioe, of Q 1,400, rendered Decessary by $:J36,650,000 00 - - - - - the employment of extra men about the new building, The other increases are not We now come to the year 1889-90, ab)ut whioh there is, of wbich will soon be occupied.

course, le8s certainty.
Having regard to t~e state of things large, until you come to the Department of Indian Affairs, in which there is an increase of 832,138, made necessary in the present year, and to tbe very general fdvorable out- look for commerce and trade, not only in our own country by the e~tablishmentof indnstrial schools, a polioy which but in the great commer~ial countries of thB world, I have has been tried with most excellent results in the country made an estimate for 1889-90, wbich is ba.5ed upon the to the south of DS, and which is baaed upon a sentiment continuance of the prosperity and the continuance of those whicb I 24m sure will commend itself to both sides of this large increa~e i8 in Railways and results of trade which have obtained for tbe present current increased revellUC Ct\nals, '~93,625, which is largely on the Intercolonial year, and I have simply calculated for on the increase of popUlation, which yOD may expect in the Railway, rendered necessary by the purchase of new rolling year, of It per cent.
My estimate for 1889-90, is as follow8: stock 101' the accommodation of an inoreased traffio, and which will be offset in part, if not altogether, by increased it is __ Income-OuBtoms 1,125,000 8,160,000 fairly long and fairly sati8tactory.

There i8 a decrease in in and This is based on the present rates of tariff snll a t'ontiuuance statistics, of 114,000, and in immigration of 8,!1,254.

of the present condition (.fthe couutry, a5 I have said before.
AYiBted pll88&geB have been entirely done away with, and Tbe estimates that have been luid before tbe Houie amount all arre&rages with reference to them h'ive been p ..dd up.

I cannot say with certainty wht\t will be the There is a reduction in quarantine of $~ 1,200, in pensions to 135,400,OUO.
total amount of the supplementary estimates yet to be brought and superannuations of '15,965, in militia of '29,'100, in If we oan suoceed in ourbing the naturally kind and railways and canals (income) of '7'&,643, and in public down.

genero~8 heart of my colleague the hon.

Miuister of worke of '100'1,894.


t.hongh I suppose, when the sUJ?plbe: ., :feblic Works, and if ".mar r.ly OD i.he leneral .... of men...,-.tiII are brotipt down, the lilt 41'lrt will The estimate for the 8ucceeding fOll.r months in this year was according to the best information that I could get from the different departments.

The total capital expenditure, as I have pointed out, will be $7,031,586,;&;1, of which, of course, 83,09-1,386 being for redemption of debt will not affect the net debt estimate.
The net debt on $~3,900,ooe earnings.

Woen you come to the list of decreas- -.." 28th Feblua.ry, 1889 .

the management legislation Excise.................. Miscellaneous d 1st uy,1889 estimate) - - - f1l.,~,175,OOO 30th June, 1888, was penitentiaries the judges.

of '9,385, agriculture The other $4,3!2, Elou~e.

srts, Total .•••••••• J 1 t • • • • • • • • • • • _ .

.

of in ot .,.

.. - ( .Hr.

Fos'1'lBt 1889.

OOUONB DEBATES.


489 In all, amounts in 1868, last year In lighthouse and coast 8ervioe there somewhat reduced.

is a reduction of 859 1500.


That, however,· does not mean that there will be )e88 effioiency in that service, bat it is owing to the faot that for a number of years p8.dt, a larger "ote has been taken for this service than haa ever been ex· pended, and tbe experience of a number of years has shown that it is poseible, with due regard for events that may ocour, though at present unforeseen, to make the vote that much smaller witbout impairing tbe effioienoy of the service.
In 8ubsidies to Province, there is a decrease of 108,464, based upon cbangea whioh have takeD place in the arran~ement, which, I may say, is now practically ooncluded, between the Dominion and the old Provinces of Canada, with refer ence to the settlement of their aocounts.
There is a decrease in the lIounted Police vote of 126,783, and in misoellaneous the decrease from the estimate of 1162,621. of 81,328,9'7'7, whioh will, to no doubt, be somewhat pulled down, as I have stated, by the supplementary estimates which have yet to appear.
Now, after having given as best I could, without ocoupying too muoh of the time of the House, an explanation of the expenditure of the three years of whioh I have treated, 1 wish to say a word or two with reference to the condition of the debt of Canada &8 it stands at present.

In 1867, the net debt of Canada WaB l'7j,'7~8,641; in 1874, when we had completed the Union of the Provinces, which now form Confederation, it was 8108,324,964.

At present, it is 82034,.

531,35g.


The burden of carrying a debt is mea.

;ure:l by the amount required to pay the interest.

Measured in that way.

it required a lJer capita payment of we find that S1.~9 to meet the interest; in 1874, it required a per capita payment of 11.34; and in 1888, a per capita payment of 81.79.

The increase in 1888, over 1868, was, therefore, 50 It is also cents per head, and over 11'374, 45. centB per bead.

important to note the decrease in the rate of interest.
In the rate of net interetlt averaged '4.51; in 1f<7 4, it 186d, averaged 13.62; and in 1888, the average net rute of interest has fallen to 83.12.
It must albo be remem· in making a fair estimate ot this debt, that there bered, was assumed, as debts of the Provinces, not created fur federal purp088g, a 8um of 1109,.130,148.69 whioh, although it added that much to the indebtedne88 of the Federal power, relieved the different Provinces by exactly the same amount, and placed the management of that large indebted ness in the hands of the Federal Government, where it is managed at a smaller rate of intere8t and with les8 burden to the oountry in general than if it had been l(,ft in the hands of the Provinoos.
Deducting this debt astmmod for the Provinces of 8109,430, 14~.69 from the net d· bt, in 1l:SS9, of 1234,531,358, we haveafuderal net debt of 8125,101,209..:H in eXOfS8 ot the assumed debts, and which is oifset by this con sideration, that daring that period named there has been a total capital expenditure of 11'79,709,'*7J.
Thus, our capitsl ex pendlture, which has been almost entirely for publio works neoes~ary for this country, has exceeded the increase of the debt for 8triCtly federal purposes by 164,608,764.69 I may Bay that tbe excess in the net debt per head necessary to bear the borden of this debt, in 1888, over 1868, is 50 cents per capifa j over 1874, 45 cents ptr capita; over 18~9, 20 ~nts per capita; and over 1880, only 16 cents per preceded me caplta.

and who to·day 1 am glad (Sir Charles Tapper), to.


8truggling the WIth At~ntic and Pacifio seaboards of this country-a problem w~lch had engaged the beat attention of the beet minds of th18 country since Confederation, and which bore 80 inti mate~y on the future prosperity and progress of Canada, tha~ ~t assumed the status of the foremost question in our pOhtlCB, the .SOlving of which would rellect credit on the minds engaged U1 it and would cause them to be hold in grateful remembrance by this country.
In 1880, the lloor of this House, was railway connection hetween 10 1080, my hon.

the problem of friend who see on feel and th.e DJm inion of Oanada; we had not made the oontrao'.

with the Oanadian Paoitlo Railway, and wo hud not commenoed to incur that vast expenditure whjch we afterwards inourred in the subsidy we gave for 6.ni~hing the remainin~ part of the Pacific trans-o::>n tinentn,l railway, whioh had not boen undertaken as a Gov.

ernment oont'truction.


Taking the net intereet per head in 1880 and comparin~ it with that of 1888, when the Pacitlo Railway had been tlnished and the large expenditure we had inourred to oomplete it W88 added to oor public debt, as it is, we find that the additional interest burden which the indebtedne88 was country was made to feel to carry that It is a common but 14 oents per head of its population.
it error oompare to take the debt of Canada with the federal debt of the United States, in order to make a point 88 against Canada and in favor of the United States, or, to speak more truly, to make a point against the Government which is now in power on aooount of its alleged extravagance in inoreasing the publio debt.

I do not know that a more unfair oomparison could be insti tuted than a comparison between the Federal debt of the United States and the federal debt of the Dominion of Canada.
Broadly stated, the oomparer says: Look at the to-day it has a debt of '20.42 per head of its United States; to-day it population.

Look at ha~ a debL of 8·n.16 per head of its population; and the oomparison always tends, as these financial oomparisonl must, to pr('judioe the minds of those who do not see throu~h if, in favor of the country which, seemin~ly, has a li~hter debt and ~ain8t the country which, scemingly, has a heav ier debt.
Now, if by a simple statement to-day I oan set, to a certain extent, at rest and dispose of this oomparison of two things so dissimilar, I shall that I have per formed a duty, not only to the party in power, but to this Hvuse and to the oountry as well.

Things which are dis similar oannot be fairly compared.

The constitution of the United States and the oonstitution of Canada are very dif ferent, so far as finanoial matters are conoerned which lead to publio debts and to public expenditures.
The United Sates, in the firklt place, assumes no debts of its different States.

The Dominion of Ca.nada haR assumed the debts of its Provinoes to the amount of 8109,430,148.69.

The United States pays no subsidie8 to its different States.

The Dominion of Canada has paid in IJubsidies to its different Provinces, since Confederation, 87~,316,029.95.

The United States, assuming no debts of its States, pays no interest upon the debt whioh it does not assume.
The DJminion of CAollda hJ.8 paid in interest 00 the the difful'cnt Provinces.

1~8,344,~48 ~o debts aSHumed for from Confederation up to the present Toen, as regards the Administration of Justioe, I think I am right in 8ayio~ that, in the United States of America, they JJRY the nine Judges of the U oited ~hates Supreme Court, th~y pay CirCUit JudgeR, nine in number, and they pay Vistl"icL Judges thirty in nomber.
Out8ide of that, they j"cur no expendi III tbe Dominion ture for the Administration of Justice.

of Oanada, we all know the state of things in rolation to the payment for the AdmiJlil:ltration of Justice, and from Con· federation up to the pret:'lent time there bakl been paid for the Administration of J ustice, '10,821,54~.90.

If Ctlnada.

had based her system on the llame fou(}~a~ion 8;s that of tho.
United States in reference to tbe AdmInistratIOn of J u!Jtwe, ..e would oertainly not have had to pay more than one· half of that amount.

Thon, in regard to Immigration and Quaran tine, we find that we have paid '5,571,631.81 8lDee Con federation.

The United States Govornment pays little or nothing for Immigration and Quarantine.

For Militia and Defence, this Government has paid 821,851,635.50 since In the United States, they keep up West Confederation.
Point Academy, and a small standing army, but the Militia throughout that vast count~ is kept up at the.

6xpense of the different SLates, 80 that, if Canada had been In the same position &8 to these matters as the United States, it would time.

440 COMMONS DEBA.TES.

lUBou 0, If Canada had have saved at lea8t one·half of that sum.

For Penitentiaries, we have expended since Confederation, 8'>,611,(;96.04.
The Penitentiaries in the United States are supported, not at the charge of the Federal power, but at the charga of the different States.

Then, Wd hs va expended fur the salaries In the country to the south of of Governors, 8Z,250,643.01.

us the salaries of the Governors are paid by the States and Dot by the Federal power.
set Ollt on the same baeis as the United States, she would have saved the aasumed debts of the Provinces, the subsidies paid to the Provinoe~, the interest paid on the debt assumed from the Provinces, the amount paid oot for Penitentiaries, the amount paid for the salaries of Governors, at least half the amount she has paid for Militia and Defence, at least half the amount paid for the Administration of J netica, and the whole amount paid for Immi~ration and Quarantine smounting in all to no les8 a sum than 8309,tl60,987.40.
The net debt of Canada tQ..day is 32341531,35ij; so tbat.

if Canada had set ont from the first on the samo basis as the United State~, and had made no payments that the Fe1eral Government in that.

country doc8 not mako, sbe not only would huve bad flO debt at present, bllt would have had a surplus of 615,329,6~~1.40.

Some hon.

ME M.B ~RS.

Oh.

Mr. FOSTER.

Hon.

gentlemen may treat this as a good joke, but from their point of view it is no joke, for, as soon as this gett'!
beforo the people and into the minds of the people.

a I'Jtock argument of the hon.

gentlemen opposite taken from them, W bich iB their com· will be forevor the United parison on un unfair ~:Hates with ours, and always to the advantige of the U oiled SLates and to our disadvantage.

But, ooming to the question of debt, Canada iB not the country most bllrdened in the world in that respect.
The whole of the Provinces bll~is of the dllbt of I Leaving the question of of Australa8ia show a debt pel' head of '2tR #)5; New South Wales, 8199.20 ; Victoria, 1156.82.

Then FdUlce bu a debt of 1179.66 per bead, and ll~lgium of '6~.15.

Sv that this country, a8 far a8 ita indebtedn888 is concerned, has, in the first place.
a debt whioh I believe is DOli disproportionate to its ability to pay; and in the seoond place, that it is not in a disadvantageous position when compared with other progressive countries in the world.

Sometimes we talk of national debt as if it meant ruin and disaster.

I have before me a table showing the net and funded debt of the oities of New York, Brooklyn, Boston, BaltimorA and Philadelphia.

Those five oities oombined have a debt of '~43,252,729, or 857.48 per head.
the debt for a moment, come now to the qlles~ion of taxa· tion and its Before take incidence upon the country.

ing up that question, however, with the kind indulgence let me aSK their attention to a fact of tha HOllse, to all hOD.

members, but whioh I which is patent repeat in order that we may bear it in mind as this diSCUS.

sion progre8se~ That is, that it is unfair to take the total revenue of the cOllntry as an index of the burden of taxa· tion on the people.
The total revenue is made up of the Oustoms tax and the Excise tax, aDd what we may call the gr088 earnings, sooh as the proceeds of oor Post 01llve, the proceeds of our Railways, the proceeds of our Publio WOJ'k~, the tolls and fares, and fees, that are paid upon them for ser· vioes which they render to the country.
There are also public fonds which are invested in different ways, which earn and yield so much to the revenue of the country, 80 that, iu to take away the earnings from every case, we have first the total revenue in order to get at what is really to be de nomi nated the taxation of the country-that is the Cu~tom8 I hold in my hands a tabulated state and Excise duties.

ment alS follows, showing:- EATIr\TKG8 AND TAXATION by Customa and Excise Duties, and proportion to population, 1868-1888.
-- -"-, - Amouut I leer ead.

----- $ eta Year.

Barnings.

Amount Iter ead.

Customs.

• cts • cta.

• 1 1888.•••••••••••••••••.

1869................. 1870.................... 1871.................. 1873................... 18'13................... 1874••••••••.••••••••• 1875................. 1876.................. 18'17 ••••••.•••••.•••.

1878.................. 1879 ................. · 1888.••.

~ ...........- 1881................. 1882.................. J883••••••••- ......... 1884.
_............... 1886.................. 1886.................. 1887.................. 1888.............._ 1,987,24'1 41 3,266,601 61 2.424,3~2 98 3,015,192 11 2,909,'261 64 3,196914 67 4,075,907 37 3,983,836 08 3,973,172 03 4,361,349 29 4,633,073 69 4,040,768 '19 4,8,7,830 25 6,693,168 ~9 5,834,409 07 I 6,624,960 99 6,378,762 64 7,412,471 90 7,950,584 18 7,067,991 32 7,731,050 35 o 59 096 o 70 o 86 o 83 o 87 1 07 1 031 1 01 1 09 1 11 o 97 1 ll) 1 31 1 32 1 44 138 1 58 166 1 451 1 55 8,578,388 8,272,8'79 8,334,212 11,841,104 12,787,98a 12,954,164 14,325,192 16,361,011 12,823,~37 12,546,987 12,782,824 12,900,669 14,071,343 18,406,092 21,581,670 23,009,682 20,OJ3,890 18,936,428 264 2 42 2 70 3 ~6 364 3 53 3 74 8 95 3 26 3 14 3 13 3 11 3 34 423 4 87 5 09 19.3'13,551 I 4 04 4 43 4 03 22,378,1501 22,105,926 4 59 4 44 Excise.
Amouut I per Head.

I $ $ 3,002,588 2,718,028 3.619,822 4.2.5.944 1 4,735,661 4,4:60,681 6694.903 5,08••6'71 6,563,487 4,911,987 4,858,671 8••88.76'1 4,232,427 6,343,022 6,884,859 6,260,116 6,469,309 6,4-19,101 6,852,90i 6,308,201 6,071,487 eta.

o 79 1 22 1 31 1 22 °89 o O~ I 1 46 I 1 231 1 30 1 41 1 19 1 30 1 CO 1 23 1 33 1 39 1 18 1 37 1 23 1 29 1 21 Gross Amount.
• 11, '100,681 Il,JU t 673 13,087,88a 16,320,368 1'1,716,552 17,616,554< 20,129,185 20.664,878 18,614,415 17.69'1,934 1'l,Ml,93S 18,476,613 18,4'18,676 28,943,138 27,649,046 29,269,698 26,483,199 26,384,559 25,226,4~ 28,68'1,002 28,1'1'1,413 TAXATIOllJ.

Percentage of Total IA.-P Reyna•.

- J:.d.

• ets.

84'1 826 3 '19 464 4 91 480 626 632 4'11 4 41 43'1 446 .38 5 61 6 22 6~ 5 63 6.0 523 688 6 66 85'48 77'28 84'37 84'41 85'52 84'6.
83'16 83'84 82'41 80'23 79''l4 8;01 06 '19''19 80',9 82 '52 81·n '19'98 '17':-9 76'03 80'~3 7S'41 From this table it will be seen that in 1'368, the earnings of "2.54 per head.

The yield from th~t source in 1888, waOJ the country amounted to '1,987,247.41, which was equal to 822,105,926, or It.44 per head.

The lGxoise revenue in 1~68, was '3,002,588, or 89 oents per head, while the yield In 18~8, the earnings 59 cents per head of the population.

from Excitle in 18~8 was 16,01 1,407, or 11.21 per head.
Tbe amounted to'7,731,050.

H5, or 81.55 per head of the popula.

tion.

That is a gratifying increase in the earnings, whioh gross amount of taxation in 1868 was '11,"00,681, an aver do not mean taxation, trom Confederation up to the present age of 13.•" per head, and in 18~8, it was '~tS,177,413, time.

The Customs reoeipts in 1868 were '8,5"8,880, or or an average of .a.66 per heed'.

That is a fair, plain Mr. FosTU.. , if is to he that says disposed this country Mr. FOSTER.
l.ux~fles and tobacco and liquors An hone MEMBER.

No no.

If he chooses to think that these are luxuries whioh silks COMMONS DEBATES.

last.

lind ~bese works ",hioh require Ilnd Cilr did 8!atement ,o~,the incre88~whic~ baa taken place' and the people.

require, j n the earDlngs and In.

c!18tO:mS 1~ this country from Ilumber a8 theIr staple, find In the country it8elf.gl'e&Ii 1868 to 1888.

Now, a dl8tJDctlon.

mIght be made.


be~ween ~esources in that respect, with a surplus «oing every year': what we may oall voluntary taxatIon and that WhlOh IS not Into the foreign markets of the world.

Tile same il true denominated strictly under that name, but which it is diffioult with referenoe to the great cereal productions of the world.

indeed to find a term well to define.


What I mean is this- Canada is a oountry whioh produces more wheat, prodUOOl and tbe statement may go for wbat it is w)rtb, and it is more barley, produces more staple toodl of mOlt kinds than' made particularly with reference to a favorite method of is necessary for the sustenance of her people, and in those comparison or calculation whioh states tbat the taxation of ways she is happily situated so far as the great neoessarie.

t~is country is s?
t~is country is s?

muc~ I?or head of its population, &8 indica- of li~e are concerned.

Now, to oome down to what may be tlDg, br th~ namlDg of It JD that way, that every man, wnmsn conSIdered a very common, but I think, a very practical and chIld JD the country has perforce to pay that much per illustration, let me take the ease of three persons to illustrate head into the coffers of the country.

Taxation, then, may the incidenoe of the taxation.


Here is your well-to-do man, be of two kinds~volnntary,and what you may call involun- who has moans, who ha~ luxurious taste8, and who is die tary taxation.

What I mean by it is this: I, for my part, do posed to gratify them.

With that no one finds fault, not use tobacco and do not use intoxicating liquor.
My but to 08se, which is the case of hundreds of thousands, I think of gratify them, and has the meaD~ to do it, he shall pay a tal: for doing it if he goes out8ide the country to millions, of people in this oountry-- the .things .whioh he get.

bis goet deSIres.
bis goet deSIres.

Sir, If Buoh a man as that buys In the olty of New If not of millioDs DOW, it will be by-and York 81,000 worth of fine furniture and bringsitintoOanada, bye, at no very long period, when my pleasant friend, who the country taxes him to the extent of '350 upon that.

IC is looking upon me, comes to think as I dO, and as so many he is musically inolined and buys a piano which il worth 'I,OuO, he pays upon that, when it comes acr088 the oustoms others of the people of this country do think.
The total If he i~ fond of statuary and makes an in revenue for 1887-88 was '3D,008,463.6~, or an average line, 8~30.

'600, he pays '171 of '7.22 per head.

The earnings amounted to 87,731,050, vestment in that line to the extent of' whioh was ,1.55 per head.

That leaves '2ti, 177, U3 for If he buys espen in duty in bringing it acrotls the line.

!live plate to the value of 8500, the duty upon it i8 8 uo..

If what we call taxation, an average of 85.66 per he:ld.
But out of this 18 million odd dollars there was paid into the he Wt;ar~ jewelry, or buys it for biB household and brin~s it coffers of the country 881084,780 for from a foreign conntry to tho vl:llue of 8500, he pays '100 alone, an equivalent of '1.78 per head of the people.

Now duty upon it.

If he is fond of wine and lays in 20 dozen of that is a voluntary tax.

A man may pay that or he may champagne, he pays upon tbat a tax of 8130. lfhe requires not.
to the he wishes, or if he chooses to denominate them necessities modest tune of 8300, and imports them, he pays a tax of which he must have, he pays a tax upon them.

They do 890.

If he wishes a fine carriage and sees one to satisfy not fall in the line of such necessary articles as the staple him there, the line, and pays it across it 8500, he p'\ys a dnty of 8175 upon it.
Upon 100ds and tho staple articles of wear; them out, it leaveM a per cJ.pitu taxation, on an average, in carpets for his houso of extra muko, which he may this country, of 83.t;8, instead of a total taxation of 8566 buy in a to th.)

extent of 8800 in per head.

But, Sir, I wiBh to go a step further, and say va.lue, he pays n duty of 25 per cont, or 8200.

Upon that this method of per capita caloulation is a clumsy and a that m'ldost ~tock of a man of mean~ mhleading method, 111 my opinion, and I wi!
"'h to ~ive the who is u'8puMed to gratify his deFlires in that respect, fbI' critic ~ay.~: ( l Ther~ is u Curtain be has paid into the treasury of the oouutry 81,600 iD duty.

House my reasons for It.

revenue which is collected ill th.s counlr-y ; divide that by the That is one man'8 contribution, but it i!

'l the contribution of number of peoplo in the country, and it gives you to-day a rioh man who witihes these luxuries, who imports tbem 15.66 per head.
For a faraHy of five this means that they from bobroad, and who, the country sa.VB, being able to pay for them, must keop up the revenue of the country boY' pay 82830 into the cofl'drs of the country.

Tnat is an inordi- tako No.

~, nate taxation, and the poor man especially who lives by his paying a tax upon them.

Now, Sir, we will day's work, is not able to pay that and keep his family to- and that is the cas(\ of the farmer of this country, whom we ~ether and live fairly pt'08rerou~in the world."
Now, I say all love, and for whom we all desire to do tho b~8t we can.

that the incidence of taxation, 80 far as my opinion goes, is The farmer of this oountry lives upon his farm in tbe rich think we Province of Ontario, we shall s~y.

Nearly all the foods not fairly stated by a calculation of that kind.
all egrce that lrxnries should ray most, and that neoessary that are used by the farmer are rai8ed upon hi~ own farm and staple articles should either pay les8, or pay nothing at and pay no duty; the wheat he raitJ~s he ht18 ground at tbe all; and th.

:ttif taxation is to be laid, we, at least on this Mide neighboring mill, it is bro?ght into hlB home and be pays no of the House, believe that it should be 80 laid as to t;om· duty upon i.
The home Itself, the ~uthouie~, the barnB, all pen8ate, by its stiinulation of indu:ltries, i~ employment of that is necessary in the way o~ hOU8lDg ~or th.e wllrk of the labor, and the increased consumption which it gives, for the farm is built out of woods whloh gro~ In thiS country, of taxation whiQh is laid npon the oouDtry, and which is n£- which we have a surplus and upon whIch he pay~ no dllty.

cessary for the carrying on of the Go,:ernment.

NJ":, if Mr. McMULLEN.

What about the nails?


tha~ ?e t~u~, I affirm that Canada to day.

In her geographical .

.

~r.

FOSTER.

The clothmg for hlm98~f an~ hll.

famIly poSItIOn, With her natural resouroes, of th~ peculiar kinds is particularly ]S In many o~8e8 made ~rom th~ wool whloh II ral~ by that.
ther are, is a COULtry which happIly: Situated for the system of taxation which h~ been the farmer ~Imself, or, I~ not r~lled.by tbe farmer hUDlelf, t?e po,hcy of this country from 1878 until the present day.

be.

clothes himself an~ hlB 1amtl, wI.th the products of O~1."

For, Sir, Ca~~~a is a country whiob, in comparison with mOtlt 'YhlOh 18 admitted free.
R.I. ?ther COuDt.rie8 in the world, has an advantage' in possess- l~mber ~f all k~nd8, h18 .furnlt~re of aU 8taple and BOhd lDg an ov~r.supply of the great staples which are neoe8sary kInds, hIS farmlllg ma~hInery, IS ma<!e, and made to t~e for food, for lodging, and for the staple wants of the coun- best advan~e, out of the wo')d~ of lUI own count;rY.

H~ fuel grows 18 the forests whl~h are all abollt hIm, or 11 try.
She has her forests with their immense resources and the hout!e8 that.are to be built, the barns that the farmer~ found in the mines in ineJthaustible qunt.itiea in thW coon- the wear of himself and his family, IDlUS, the raw ~at~rl.ll of flO that if you take for f\)reign mal kut and brings luxuries .

.

for for I .

36 .

COMMONS DEBATES.

lUBOR 5, try.


So that, taking it in the grOBs, in the rough, the staple articles of consumption, and of housing, and of fuel fOr the farmer are those of which this country produces a surplus, which are free within the borders of this country and upon which not one cent of tax is paid.

An hone gentleman said: "What about the nails 1" With that infini.
tesimal ca8t ot mind which characteriees him, out of the hundreds and thousands of dollars which are required to buy raw materials for the home, and which are free to the farmer who buys them, the hon.

gentleman's mind leads him to look at the few pounds of nails which are necessary to keep the structure together, and upon which a duty may perhaps be paid.

That argument, as an hon.

gentleman suggests, is clinched.

Mr. LANDERKIN.

All our farmers do not wear home· spun.


in that 85.66, a difference cents from the fact tho people did pay under our re~uced system of taxation a8 compared with that of the United States.

If you take the last ~ig-ht yeard, from 1881 to 1888, the taxation paid in the United States was $5.87 per head, and in Oanada 15.

'74, a difflJrenco of 13 cente per head in favor of Canada for tbat peT iod.
For the year 1888, the tax per bead in the U nitod States was 85 51 per head, whiltit in Cunada it favor of of 15 was that the United States, which ari8cs the U oited States, undertaking none of la'-ge class of as we have in Canada, and whbh I expenditnres such mentioned a few moments ago, has from her surplu~.

with her large population and immense trade, paid a large amount towards reducing her public debt,and, consequently, is reducing the per capita rate of taxation which the people are oblig-ed to pay.
But, when you talk of taxation in the United States, you talk simply on the line of comp~rison of the federal taxes, forgetting that each State has also its taxes, and, if you add the taxation of the different State8 for 18"7-88, which amounts to 81.08 per head, to the federal taxation of 85 51 per head, you obtai n the total corre~ponding taxation paid by the people-86 5 ~ per head in the United States as against 85.66 in Canada, a difference in fZl.vor of Canada of 93 cents per bead of the population.
Wby, some times people think that only a country like Canada, enjoy ing' a protective tariff, has to pay Customs and Excise taxes If we go to Great Britain, what do we find?

We tir,d the taxes gs.thered there in 128B weT~ us follcIWd:- I( 0 d do 1.89 0.2" °0 in this do do do d 357,780,115.56 UpOD tho 9,428,40 .

0 ~7S,400.00 least it makes it a p08bibility, T.>\&1 Revenue Mr. FOSTER.

No.3 is the artisan.

He does not the well-to·do middleman and the this laboring class.
There is $ 85,158,2153.36 j amount per capita.
$~.3() 3.36 12t,551,485.20 1.71 63,457,777.00 0.13 6,005,800.00 live on a farm on which he is able to raise what he COD8U meB, btlt he lives in a village or town; but the articles of food which he buys, the clothing which he wears, the lumber he requires for house purposes, the furniture which he puts into his home, the tools \vhich he uses to a large extent and items in the ex the fuel he burns, which are the larger penditure of the artisan as well as in the expenditure of the farmer, are obtained country, which produces a surplus of them, and no duty is paid upon them.
So, I say, that in this country with its pre8eut fiscal flyslem and with its peculiar n~tnrftl advantages, the ~yetem ot tal iff arrl1Dg~mf'nt under which we live is one ~h ich bJings the Cosi0m3 incidenco (f taxation where it l:-hould rest most hCRv- Excise ..••.

•.• ily, upon tho man whe> buys luxuries and has expcn~ive Stamps...... tastes and is \villing to gl'atify them, and lesst heavily Land TAX......... ....• .......•.
upon the furmer, House Tax......... •• ..... .... artisan an other f:wt, wbieh I think is one of considerable importance, Prop(>rty and Income Tax... that the peculiar structure of our tariff' arrangement makes this almost a nccessiLy, &t the raw material which comes in as the material So there is a tax paid under these different heads of 89.64 that for manulaulul'oa i8 untaxed, and while the manufactured pcr ht'flli of tho population in free trade:' Great BdtalD.
I article pays tax, the ttirnulus giVtD Jead!i to the establil"h- llr:dt'l take to Aay, after carefully louking into tbis matter, men t of new ir,dust rics, which in their turn gather about Illh~t lliking the incidence of taxation in Great Britain and them l.sbor ~Dd 80 afrold employment is much more severe and make 10 theIr turn centres for.

the cODsumptIOn of the ~Ul_1 onerous upou the poorer classes of Great Britain than it is pl~s ])roducts of the country.
SIr, ~o make that argumentJust upon the poorer classes of Canada, aDd it does not have the ~ httle stronger, let me Bay that .If hon.

members will look beneficial effect there in the way of 6timu lating industries mt?

the c~8toms retu.rna they Will find that more than 200 and giving employment to labor as it has in Canad".
I fiod ~l'tlClt's whICh enter mto the ~anufacture of .goods come in France the tax per head reaches 812.86, or a difference m duty free, and that On&thIrd of the total Imports for in favor of Canada of 87.20 per head.

In Australasia the tax home conliumptlon were, in 1887-88, admitted free of duty per head is 812.79, or a difference in favor of Canada of in this country.

Sir, th~ comparison is made as well be $7.13.


I think you wiil agree with me that in considering tween the debt of the UDIted States and the debt of Canada taxation, it is always necessary to have regard to the fiS it ~s between the taxation of .th~ United State~ and the application of the money which is raised by taxation, and taxatIon 01 Cana.da, and the baSIS In ODe re.apect 18 almost when we come to look into that little we will as unfair as the basis in the other.
position of immense borne vantage ground in this respect,as compured with the United lOOKed find States of America or Great Bdtain.

In the United States for by that corresponding the last year we fiLd that they made the following pay in to -U oited Statos, in Cnstoms and Excise-that is what you may call tax-they h:ive paid at the rate, taking the aver age of their people, ot &6.6!

per head during that period.


If you take the amount paid by the people of Oanada for Customs and Excise in the same time, the average for its population is but 84.94 per head, a differenoe in favor of tho Canadian citizen of 81.70 on the amount of Customs and twenty-one year~ ending ExciE'o taxation for the period of 1~b7-88.
Tbat is, if Canada, during those twent.y-one years, had been as heavily taxed forCustom8 ang Excise as were the people of the United States,they would have paid,taking our a.vtlrage population at 4,000,000 80ulll,' 142,800,000 more than Paid in terest OD debt PensioDs Oivil expense Redemption of debt.

.•••.•••• .•••.•••• •••••• Military Nav!


•••••••• 'u So that for those expen8es alone, nearly all of which are for war, or for the results of war, Qr for the keeping up of tho -fignres of the United twenty·one the Dominion ,«,7115,007 80,288,1508 22,852,334 83,084,405 38,622,436 16,928,437 to t~e people, and comparing it with Canada, the States, years, of Canada, Bat.

Str, I have find taxation peoplo of you take life that Canada Btands _.

•••••• _.

.••••.

.••• w.... ......••.


the if the the ments: ••••••• • _.. $288,389, 127 through and I Total the 9.64 ill of it do a a _ Mr. FOSTER.

1889.

COMMONS DEBATES.

443 military 8tatu£l, there was paid by the U nited State~ 1286, 889,127, out of a total expenditure altogether of 13·1:3,'138,· 364.

Now, Sir, when you look at Great Britain, yon will find my statement equally true with reference to the application of taxation.
Great Britain last year paid the following 8ums in expenditul'e:- Interest on debt Naval and military.. Oivillist and administration.

-••••••• .•.••• £28,213,911 30,768,687 19,691,950 sometimes said, and it Or a total of £76,674,548 sterling for these Aervices, while only £to,749,O!

:n was paid for the collection of revenue, Post Office service, telegraph servioe and paoket service.
I say that, having regard to the applioation of taxation, there is no com parison, a8 far 88 the benefit to the people is concerned, between the taxes which are raised in Great Bri tain and the United States and those which are ra:sed in Canada.
With the exception of the mOlley exponded as a result of the unhappy outbreak in the North- West, every cent of taxation, speaking in the ~rOjS, whieh is raised in Canooa,and which has been ruised hero since C0nfederation, has gone, not for war, Dot for WftRte, not to make up the ravages of war or to pay fur the consequences of war, but it has gone to construct prodo.ctive publio works which have repaid the country for the outlay and have made this a country where business is speeded, where commerce finds splendid facilities, and where the people have every re 80urce at their command to make them a business people, with profit to them!
:lelves and prosperity to the coun try.

is a potent word It is to conjure with, that "taxation" is a bugbear to the It is a bugbesr to unintelligent people, but it people.

to intelligent people, aod if conjurer" is not a bugbear conjure with it to-day they conjure with a word and an less reprehensiblo than the old instrument which is not I believe it is instruments of the conjurers of other days.
a fa.ct which stands upon a basis Round and certain, that taxation is the only gateway to progress and development in a country, and that if a people sit down and deter· mine that from thi8 day forth no taxation is to be raised, they Bit do -vn to a condition stationary anu wilhout progress and which will soon lelve them very far be hind in tbe race of nations, with the keen competition of to-day.
Take a town of 10,000 people which to-day il'l without a sewage system, without a proper street system, without a police system, without lighting system, without a fire protection service; briug thoso 10,000 people together and let them look into the matter and come to the conclusion that the city and for their statu8, us compared with otber and competing cities, that they shall have all thes.> great public services.

How are they to Eecure them?


There is only one gateway through which they can march to the enjoy.

ment ofth08e enlightened and efficient services for their town, and that is through the gateway of taxation.

The people of the city and the property of the city must be taxed, or they cannot secnre, and canDot maintain the efficient ser· V1Ce8 which .every progre88ive city of to-day holds It must have.

What i8 true of the city is true of' the country as ~eIl.
The point to be looked at is, S8 to how the tnxation 18 applied, 88 to whether more is raised tha.n is ll~(jei:lSary for its proper application, and in considering whether or not 'Vhat have we in Cunada as a result of what the peOple of the c~:mntry have paU into the public treasury?
We have, in the first place, an enlarged domain, and an enlarged popula· tlon; we have added to the original four Provinces ofCanada three other Provinces, and an extensive, almost illimitable ~~ntry, illimitable in its acreage, and still more illimitable In Ita wealth of millerali and of timber, and of resouroes to be the couDhy is overtaxed, or unduly taxi:d. is nece8sary for promoting the health of it of for the first placo, in order transport supply all the outlay, and if land te the market.
and to make a plaoe for reaped from the cultivation oflarge and fertile tracts of land' That cost us money, and money had to be paid into the treas· ury, and out of to get the treasury again, this this enlarged domain, is somethin~ to bo considered enlar~ed population.

That the amounts that have been paid in as an offset against taxation.

We have added to and developed our productive capacity as well.
Lands that were useless becaUt~e thero was no access to them, and whore, even if persons got to them, there was no way of gotting the produce back from lhem, have been opened up by railways and by facilities for tranf'lporting these products.

rrhol'o wag DO othol' way of getting these facilities but by levying taxation upon the people and obtaining the money with which to build and with which to make tho!

!le improvements.
!le improvements.

Why, Sir, not Ia.ter t.han 1877, in Manitoba and the North-West TorritorieH that only 500 bushlls of we were confronted by the fact wheat were exported.

In 1887 from Manitoba alone were exported 10,400.000 bUbhcls of wheat, and in 1889 the esti mate for Manitoba and the North-West is that their wheat yield will country and the needs leave for export 20,000,000 bushels of wheat, with an acreage of 7(10,000 acres under crop.
That is possible to·day because this country chose to tax themselves the peorle ot to obtai n pos8esBio~ tho in in order, of that part of Canada, and in the Heoond place, to open up the oountry with railwa.ys and public works 80 as to make the land and to get the it possible for the people to till product of ~rhent Sir, we the find that the transport charges have been very much cheapened.
We have paid heavy sums of money for our canals, but we havo got increased facilities and cheap ness of these public works do not add directly in revenue to the treasury, they are of great advantage to tho progress of the country and commeroe.

of alm03t untold benefit In 1872 the toHti!


per ton through the WeIland Canal were 16.26 conts, and in 1888 the tolls were only 12'52 por ton; thus between 1872 and 1888 there has been a red uction in tolls on the Welland Canal of 23 per cent•• and a reduction of the St. Lawrence rates of 48i per cent.

That transport of those staple oerovl8 and articles of commerce which from the interior of the country toward'!
fl')ated out the seaboard and to the great markets of the world, as well as tho staples which come from foreign countrioH, and whieh make their way into the intorior of this country by the same route j and although it id true to say that no in cre,lsed revenue come3 from thoBe wurk8, there is a broader way of looking at the matter.
Although the public treaelUry the public bu~iness and the gene.ral is not enriched, yet prosperity of the country are made greater by the reduotlOn of the tolls, and by another great that the enlarge ment of these canals renders possible the uso of a larger cla8s ofves8els, which oarry a larger quantity of ~rain, aDd consequently at cheaper rates than could prevail with the old depth of water in the canals, whon very much smaller and inferior vesselR had to be used.
And so we may Bet down 8S compensations for this e~penditure, th~8e t~ci.1itie~ for business and an added attractive power whICh distIngUished the oountry in competition with other countries which do not possess thes9 improve~e.nI8; a.nd if we are to go f?r.

ward in the race of competItIOn With other new countries to day it is a necessity, a8 well as a wise and prudent c~untry; but.
to .open it up policy: these we lOq nire money to establ18h and mamtam all lines of communication, the money by askin~ it from the people.

But, I may bo asked, to go on forever?

Are we to be continually increasing our debt?

Are we to be continually incree.aing the amoun~ that we raise from the so much actu!llly sllved in the in promoting our to open up our can only get Is this thing and we tact, is dOlIllONs DEBATES.
of say 82,000,0 °per year, makin~ $li,OOO,OOO; a total of is for line of have a 'Va have built extraordinary expenses, in retaining and maintaining, ,people 'in the way of yearly contribution?

"Sir, I think to-day Cliooada, Btanding on the vantage ground of Qtat in s. better posit tWenty-one years of progress, tion to look out upon the future, with a greater probability or acourately forecasting what will be tbe result, than she hae been at any preceding year of her history.
The debts of the Provinces bad to be assumed 8S the o:d Provinces were brought in.

These have now been brought in.

In the territory which lies to the west of us, thero are rna· great "tenals for other Provinces which, by-and.by, will have to be formed and furnished.
The great St. Lawrence channel naa been deepened; our canals have been largely built, and when the expenditures which are at present contracted for ehall have been made in the course of about three years, we from the shail communication the Great Lakes down to Montreal; extreme end of • e Ihall find a depth of water on the Sault Stet Marie Oanalof 18 feet, on the Wellacd Canal of 14 feet, and on the St. Lawrence canale and river a depth sufficient to carry the vessels which go throngh the Weiland Canal down to Mont real, and so to the seaboard.
the Intercol, onial Bailway, tbe great line of communioation between the lbritime Provinces and central part of thh~ country; we the Oanadian Pacific Railway, giving our large have boilt contribution to it, which connects that )ioe of railway with the Pacific; we have given our contribution to the Short Line Railway, which witbin a few months will be open to the llaritime Province ports; and we have given otber con tributiQDs to ot.her liiles of railway, more local, but DOt less useful in their natare.
All the vast initial expenses ir:.

cident to this opening up of our territory, and this complet in,g of the channels of communication between our different Provinces, have been incurred; and it does seem as if to day we are in a position to take stock of the future, ar.d fairly to anSWer the question as to whether or not we shall go on rolling up the debt, as Bome of my friends would BAy-whether or not we t;lhall go on taking Jarg-er amounts of taxation from the people.
The engagement~ for the next three years for capital expenditure are, on a fair estimate, something like this: 814,500,000, to meet the capital expenditure of 812,'789,789, leaving 82.000,000 for other capital expenditures than those I have mentioned.
So that, putting these two facts and these two sets of items together, my own opinion as a member of the Government, and it is an opinion in which I know I shall have all rea80nab!e support from my clUeagoes in the Government is tha.t, taking for grant·, d that the condition of the country during the three years to come shall be equatly prosperous with its condition to,day, t<houlJ no extraordinary events arise the three years to cause ending on the 30th of June, 1891, we ought to meet our capital engagements, pay what we have to pay in the run ning expenses of the country, and add not one dollar to the net debt of the country.
Wbat I meRn is this, if I have not made myself clear, that counting in the sinking fund invcat• ment, which is laid up as again8t gross debt, we ooght in the next three years to moet all our capital engagementR to I have mentioned, and at the end of that time the amount have no greater net debt than we shall bave on the lat of July, 18b9 j and this is estimated on the basiB of tbe tariff which we have to-day, with!

)ut contemplating any increase in the tax rate.
After le92, with equa.l pro8p~rity, with an increased population, and with consequently inGreased consumption and increased contributions to the revenue, on the same rate of tariff, I believe that, unless extraordinary events occur which call fur extraordinary expenditure,this country ought to go on for a series of years without any in crease of debt at all, providing for necessary capital expendi ture and the services of the country out of tho revenues whilh come in to make up the consolidated revenue of the country That is my foreca8t, and one which I b'3lievc, if nothing intervenes of an unexpected character, will be fully carried out by the march of events.
Now, I come to the question of the loan which has been pot upon the London market, through the instrumentality of the High Commissioner, in June, 1~88.

It was placed on the market on the lath June 1888, the conditiODs being that the interest f!

'hould be pay able one-half yearly, 1st or January and 18t of .July, at 3 per cent.

per annum.

The lowest rate at which a Canad,an loan had been floated heretofore waa ai per oont.
Thisioan " had been floated a few years ago, and it waa believed, in 100kinK over the field and seeing the state of our own secori ties and our 3i percent~.

and the state of the money market, that there was a favorable opportunity for placing upon the - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - English market a Canadian loan at 3 per cent.-or at a less rate of interest than that at which any colony ever :ft.()8ted a loan in the London market.
Tbe minimum price fixed for this 3 per rate was our 81 per fixed, cents., which 104 bringing or 105 in the market.

The amoant placed upon the market was £4,000,000, and the time fixed for the loan to run was 50 yeor&.

The reception of that loan upon the 100,000 London market was gratitying, I am Bore, to all Cabadians.

Not only w£s takEn up, but tbe amount asked for £l2,000,000 werc flubscribed, being three times the amount af:lked for.
There is DO doubt circumstances were some what favorable to the placing of the loan up~n the market at that time, and 1 think great credit is due to the High __ Commissioner (Sir Charles Tnpper) for selecting the precise time at which he should call for tenders.
Being in London, his advices were acted upon by the Government, and having fall knowledge of the state of the money market, he ohose the time which, as circum8tances afterwards proved, was the mpst rpportnne that coald have been ch08en in the Making a total for I. hold in my "81r, what have we to Jlleet this with?

We have an estimtited; year 1888, for the 1bating of the loan.
three years surplus of 16,01)0,000 ; a b~lance from the loan" hand a statement of the different loaDS whioh have been .~i~l on~and on the 1st of July, 1889, of 12,500,000; and a l plaoed on the London market .inoo 1867.

It is II fol linlting fund, whioh is to be oaiet agaillSt the publio debt, 10wl:- Oanal l&ai:wa,••eM' Pultlic Worb••••_ Railway Subaidtea ltedemption of Debt "'Dominion t.nd 407,000 E.t.

~lSO,()OO Est.2lSO,OOO 229,387 the three years of 812,789,789.

Now, cent.
Now, cent.

caloulating at loan was upon the that 92f, which value of Len-Redemption of DebtN...... 2,41'1,267 __ $1,636,rs:U 1,~OG,OOO time, were .

_ •.._ .-....... •••••••• $3,690,963 $8,690,963 $5,438, 723 $7,855,990 $5,460,103 $3,111,5'16 $3,310,103 $3,866,103 2,417,267 1,800,000 5,000,000 1,800,000 6,000,000 1890-91.

1889-90.

1891-91.

100,000 100,000 "'0•• f f ••••• , .. .

.

Kr.

FOI~u.

,1889.

OOMMONS DEBA.TES.

}rodaANDUlI respecting Can.wian'L)ans placed on the L'lndon Market 8ince 1867.
• _a o ~ a Q, .. _c:I Q, '8 .

: Af Price f lIII 1/01 .... 9 0 ' .. _ realized..... 0 c .~ Ii .

~ !

Total Issue.

Dillcount or .Premium.

Amount ftaliled.

c Nt!

.

:.s~ .... lIIIl/oI Q....... tI&)'i~,,; cEl-... ·... R ].

::l ~ sl/ol - lIII ~ ~ ~ •__ .

'9c:lo c i .. ~ ~ blg~c:lo :8g!.§ ~ 'aw ' So.

:; tI&) ... ::O g<ll.+3 :;~.~ :!

... IIl"d e mount.J' c • 1/01 .

- "d of Oa8h f'" Zlllll realized.


~Sdc - .. 1/01;; :S ~ S ~ -=i]l'i ISo~f 1:;1 ... ·... Q, ----_-...-.-.-.- Intercolonial R'y, 1869, guaranteed'l do do ,1869, nnguaranteed.

1873, guaranteed • .

Rapert's Land, guaranteed_ Loan of 1874 _ do do co do do do do do 1875, guarant.eei 187&, unguaranteed 1876 18~8 1878 1879 1884 1885 _ _ , _ _ _ Canada Reduced Loan of 1888 _ :K: .

Q 8 3 ='1" ••••~ ~~ ~ 1,5M'O~O-}... P. In~~i ...... ?,112,~~~ 2918:6~ ::-~9~ : : - .••••.

.••• ,"" 90 90 •••.

v .

.

.

.


99 ~ 91 .ov, .... .

.

.

O~ t:a 11, 36 Ii , 500,000 I .., 30 4 I,MO,flOO P. 104 7 31 4 300,000 D. 393,47t 111 6 3,606,6J3 2 6 60,289 9 9 3 646 233 12 9i 3 30 4 4,000,000 ..... •••• .... sa 4 :,500,000 I D. 21,93(, 9 1 2,477,069 lO 11 12,847 6 1 2,434,221 14 101' 1 8/80.

1,000,000 '''167'122 9 71d")17877 10 II so 4 2,600,000 O.
2t5,OOO 36 4 1,500,000 30 4 1 600,000 .•.••• 0.102,347 12 62,f97,652 7 6 ~6,602 Ir> 71,861,0~9 11 11 6 l' 33.449 18 11 1,845,5n 7 9 '03916 '04815 9 [OJ 29 .. 3,000,(,00 •••... 0.147,206 6 4 l,1:l5!,793 13 8 \7988 8 sl J 80\ 806 II 2 :~6?j 6,000,000 4,554,130 25 .. 4,000,000 4,043,416 8 24j 4 6,44~, \36 2 9 O.

64,576 2 9 6,388,~60 60 3 4,000,000 ...... D 197,9()4 '" '013 61 '0~15 19.:693 3 414:4t,9;436 16 E '0423 'Ot083 '0'1 '0837 "'18J.09H 2 113,961,317 17 11 31,977 1 0 6,~66,583 19 ••.
... 3,802,096 •••.•.

6'1,598 4 813,73t,497 16 {l 0.445,870 P. 43,416 96 11 ., 1 96 95 2 9\ 91 99 101 1 .... ••• _ 921 95 6 8 1,8~8,971 '0416 '0176 2,276,000 78,971 1 " " ' . }

.. _ .. } .. .. .

.

.

.

-Jr 50 rears calcu!ated (or 25 rears only.

I fOl' I Totall ,amount t?e current year £:365705 128 Cd J\nd ni~g over three years.

Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.

Will Mr.FOSTER.


The amount of tho loan was £ l 0 JO 000 the hon; gen v Iest, payable in London on the 1st of July, amounting to tleman state the exact net product of the loan ?1 '2 , 147,:J54; we had to meet tho ndemptioD of debt in tho T~e ?is(,'Ouot paid was £,W{),419 15s.

9d.

; one per C~Dt.

~om~I~ad als0 to mee.t the re~emptionot dobt in 1889 9~, amount current ;year of &3,:19-1,3t6, making in all, Sll,7!-13,84i.
We 'rotal amount mg to ~2,417,2t.i1, makIng In all, 614,211,113, w.tllch we had nllB81OD, £to,OOO; 8tamp~, £J,026 128. tid.

passed by the Auditor to date, £~43,44fj 88.

3d.

One qunr- to meot either on the ~st July, in reference to the temporary ~er per.

'Cent brokerage £10,000; stamp duty, £9,778 lIs.

loam~ nnu tho redemptIOn of debt for.

that year, and during Bd'i prmting and advertising, £3,350 138.

Od.

; stamJ)@, the redemption of debt in 1889·90.

£~O i b~ing a total of £22,30948.


3d., which is still held by 'Ihat would leav~ a 8urplu8 ?f 't,2.,~, 177.

T.hen we had to information but which he face a large capital expenditure whICh ParlIament haei al· we'Audltor General for fuBer i!,forms me, he considers will be all right and be in'tbo ready authorized on the canal~f on the Sault 8te.

Marie to be taken from the face of canal-prospectively, at leaRt, allLl which i8 now under con· end paid.
~he loan for all charges leaving tract-and an expenditure for tbe St. Lawrence ('aoal8, run· £3,734,244 7s.

6d.

&8 the ~et am~unt of the ioan In addition t.o that, we had the rall.way 't?

Gape Breton, which wa~ under construction, and the r~te is a.~7 per~nt.

Tbe favOrable nature' of Ii !oan18 in~ured.

by the returns it gives to inve8tor~ WhiCh WIll not bo tom pleted ~Dt1l the e~d of 1he current 10 COIIlp,al'lson'W1th -other loans running upon tho Britich year•.
Fur all thel'\~f B.lurge capll.alexptm'htul't'.

would havo lakIn~ these Into acoonnt, It became a market.

Our'Sl per cents.

: at that date were quoted at ~06f, which 'would return to the investor, redemption mattel' of choice if we should .go on the IJ'Jndon market for Included,£S'4s.·~dpery-ea.r.

Our 4'8, due in 1904 and 1908, a loan.of £~,OIJO,OOO at that.time ~nd pay all the calls upon were.
qooUld at 101+1, which would return to the investor U8, With 1be prospect of InCUrrlog a larger amount of redemption ine1uded.

£1 58.9d.

Onr 4's reduced falling expenditure afterwards, leaving jour or five millions of l,Oj, which gave' to the d~llars which would b~ required within th~ tlext year or ~ue in 1910, were quoted at eIghteen months for whICh we would htive ~Itber to.

place lDv~tor £368.

Od.Oor 4's, 1910-Sil,werequoted at 112l ~h1Ch gave to the investor £3 9s.
Od.,·whilst the 3's gave tht1 te~pf)rary loans or to go on the.

market agalll, &Dd It wa~ mvestor, redemption inoluded,as in the other case8, but £3 deCided that the most economlo..!.l coorse was to take the 48.

Id.
Id.

; and as the advantage of a loan, as fair a8 we are whole amoullt at that t.ime, becau8e of the state of tbe concero~d, and the return to the investor bear an inverse market .then, ~Il~ because ~f tbe fact that t~e money w.ould propOl~tIoDJ it' WIll be' seeD that 'the loan placed upon the be reqUired wIthm the perIod I have mentIOned.
Besldc8, mark.~ in IH88 is more favorable for Canada than the f?r temporary loans we have to pay 4 per cent., and some· quotatIons as to the running loans upon the marketand the hmes more.

We have not been able to get them at a rate It wa~, therefore, thought other securities that I have mentioned less than that.

the most economical oourse would be to borrow the larger amount .

CHARD OA.RTWRIGHT.

Does thiS loan bear a and prec'lude the necessity of getting theBe temporary ., .. k.'.
81n mg fond 'I I 8Upp0tle _ , Mr. .f OS~KR.

No.

the amotl~t which was IlsJud for.

Someoriticism has taken sorplos, Bnd I mllY as well make a statement to the p~ Ii: the ~rcs8, and' no doubt some criticism will take House at this time as to that matter.

On the ~lst July In I'~gard to our having uk-ed for a loan of we had at our command £l,OUO,OOO which we needed p ace £4,0fO,oOO, when we have; by our OWD admi88ioD, a certain t to plUC6 somewhere.

That million W88 in London.


It was to-ctrr 10&lls at Glyn'8&nd 'BariIlg!"

that time to get a rate of more tho'a.n '·8 per :"IU'P DB on hand lInosed•.

- At 'amounting cent.

for that money in London.

The,moneymarketeeemed to be filled.

Batta were rulil1.

v.rT low, ad there WII that t~m.e we ,had.

to meetIimpossible at I'desire to say A word as to the somothing will be said 8S to the di8position ot loans or gOing on the market for another loan.

,.

1.,1N; we bIcl to mee1i IiDkiJag 'tUG aDd biter.


to be IOcurred.

Sir BI " ' .

that &Fe, , • I 446 COMMONS DEBATES.

MARCH 5, no possibility of saying at what Hme a change wouH take place so that we might get a larger rale.

Therefore, after thinking the whole matter over, it was considered wst, as exchange was largely in our favor from London to New York at that time, to send the money by exchange to New York, under which operation we gained a fair sum for the exchange.
We were running tho risk of plaoing the money at a better rate of interest here than we could get in It was certain that we could get a considerably London.

larger rate, and we could not know how much larger amount we might possibly get.

Under these circum stances, the money was exchanged to New York, and, ag I said before, a certain 8um was made by the exchange.

The money was then placed in four Canadian banks at the best rate they would give at that time, which was It per cent.
It was the intentIOn of the Government, taking into consideration the rates of exchang~:::.s they have been on the average for a number of years, to keep that money on deposit until the 1st J inuary, and then, as the exehange would be, according to previous experienco, likely to be favorable, to Bend thc money from New York to Lw(ho, under which arrangement a large amount w·::mld bavc boJen gained by the re-exchange, and those two sum., SI) g",ine1, being added to the amount received for the money dep03itcd here, would have given us a much larger interest th~n we could have obtained by leaving it in London.
Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.

How did that work out?

Mr. FOSTER.

It did not work out 88 we expected The rates of exchange during the past year, as my hon.

friend knowt'l, have been altogether a,bnorma], owing to thc tbw movement of the cotton crop, the coat of wheat in consequonce of the speculative prices which prevailed here and which preoluded shipments, and totha large imports into lhe United ~tates.
Consequently, there wa.s a difl'crence in the exehange betweon New York and London which had Dot obtained f,)r a long series of years, and thcre was altogether a diffurence in the normal fulings of exchange, ~o that, when the lst January arrived, instead of there being the usual state of things, gold was being shipped to London, and it would not have been profitable tor us to exohange to London.
Under those circumstances, we made arrangements with the bULks, and, according to the statement which I brought down to the Houi5e a few dayB ago, a large amount of this money remains in deposit in the Uanadian banks at from 3 to ~t per cent., running until the 1st July, 1889.
I mppose that no person can well make caloulat ivns in business matters extending over a number of yeara, on the ba~is of the records for that perioa, who is not liablo to be up~et in his calculations by the force of ab!lormal causes.
Those causes have rather upset the present year, but this fact remains, that, when lhis money will have been returned to pay what we have to pay in London, taking aU the cost and all the interest we havc received for deposits, we bhall find at the worst that we shall have paid for the million of pounds that we had on sur· plUB for the year a rate not exceeling 4 pOI' oent., which is oertain'ly not more than we would have had to pay for a temporary loan which we would have had to make a year ..fterwardB.
the calculations made for Sir RICHARD CARTW.RIGHT.

Will the bon.

~entle· man permit me to ask him oneque8tion?

Was any obhglioLion formally entered into on the part of the Gavernment of Canada that they would use their sinking fund to purchase those 3 per cent.

securities, and, if 80, was that a positive obligation?

Mr. FOSTER.

My hone friend means, if I understand him, are we to buy-- Sir RICHARD OARTWRIGHT.

Are you to use your lSiDki~.i fund to make purohuee out of the a per oent.

loan?

»X.
loan?

»X.

FOll'JAa.

Mr. FOS'fER.

I think, so far 88 my informatbn goes, that our investments for sinking fund purposes are to be made out of the 3 per cents.

Sir BICHARD CARTWRIGHT.

pledge?

That is a pOtlitive Mr. FOSTER.

I do not think it was a positive pledge, I c&nnot speak certainly.

Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.

Perhaps gentleman's predecessor can teU him.

the hone Mr. FOSTER.


But I know that is what we are doing, and that is, I think, what we should do, because I think it has its advantages, taken all in all.. Sir RICHA.RD CARTWRIGHT.

When the hone gentle man retnrns after six perhaps he will b6 llble to tell the House whether the pledge WIlS a positivo one or not.

Something depends upon that.

Mr. FOSTER.

I will be able to say, but I do not think it was a positive pledge.
A~ showing the favorable nature of that loan of which I have been speaking, a~ compared with loans of other countries which were negotiated during the same year, I will read the following table, showing the loans effected by various countries in 1888, with the per cent., and price received: __ .

~ ._ Loa_~ _o_en_t ..:~:- Per Price I : I Victoria.
Mexi co Brazil.... .••.. New South Wales,.... • IntHa Queensland Ar{l:entine Republic Uruguay ' '........ 1£15,000,000 3,700,000 ' I' 6,0<10,000 3,500,00(, ',000,00 2,600,00(1 3,933,58°1 4,255,300 _ .. -...... 4, 6 4!3.

~ 3 6 £ 1081 18j 97 103-12-2 96-7-0 94-16-6 8'1 82t In respeot to the Indian loan, we all know that it is Illuch the same as a loan by the Government of Great Britain it self.
Some of those oountries are fair countries for com parison wi th Canada; others may not be so fair; but, 88 is shown in th(' case of all of them, even of that of india, I think, conBidering the oircumstances whioh rule in an Indian loan, as compared with a colonial one, the late loan by Canada, may be considered to be very satisfactory indeed.

So much With reference to the loan.


I now ask the indul gence of tbe House for a few moments while I turn to an ot her and more ioteresting subject-the commerce of the In speaking of the commerce of couutry for the past year.
Canada one can bcarcoly avoid taking into oonRideration the olale of commeroial operations and l"ommercial confidence in Great Britain and the United States of America, because these two great countries, with which we have 80 large a commerce, and which have 80 large a commeroe with the rest of the world, are, a~ it were, barometers of the oommer I cial feeling and of the commercial enterprise of the world.
in Great Britain the year that has jast passed find that through hqs been a fairly prosperous year, shown and through, and trade in Great Britain, It has from all h88 been Bound and progressive, and there has been au absence of speculation, which has been especially marked, and busin618 is reported &8 being more active at the present time than it has tieen for many years past.
A great im petus haa been given to the Shipping trade, and to ship buildiDg ill Great BritaiD, II ill our own oouq', bl tho improved.

taking it steadily advioos, 809 1889.

OOHKONS DEBA.TES.

the find that lar~e)y in in 1886, and tonnage which wal:l built rise in freights that bas taken place within the last year, and I in 1888 in Great Britain was nearly double t.he tonnage exoe8S on which was built in 18~7.
As a con~equence of that whicb was built in the Rhi pbuildiD~ trade and in the carry the revival in~ t.rade, there has been a stimulation of the coal pro duction, and the demand by shipowners and shipbuilders has caused a large output, and a rise of wages for those who work the mines.

The iron industry has been helped 8S well, and cotton shipments have inoreased.
One very #!ood index of the state of Great Bdtain is that, whereas at the end of 18....'1, 20 labor societies, reporting a member ship of 197,000 men, reported 13,700 unemployed, or 7 per cent., "t the end of 1888, 21 societies with a member~hip of 249,000, reported only 8,20D unemployed, or 3 per cent.

Throughont Great Britain, acoording to latest advioes, there is a growing confidence and a cheelY outlook for the trade in the future.

Much the same may be said with the trade of the United States.
The features of the trade of the United States for the last year have been its heavy output of pig iron, tbe highly satisfactory condition of its various industries and its cotton trade especialIy,and the lar~e output of anthraoite coal, the lart!est, I think, in the history of the country.
In reference to Oanada, hone gentlemen are, I sup pose, as well acquainted with the condition of the conntry as myself, and it would not be news to them to 8tate that throughout Canada there has been a fairly average, or more than an average condition of trade, during the paflt year; that altbouQ'h t he harvest waR not of the best, it was oom pen Elated for its deficiency in quantity, in some parts, by a larger growth in others, and over the country generally by an increased Bcale of prices.
The manufacturing indus· tries are fairly prosnerouB, the textile industries especially, the lal'ge stocks which were held, as was the case in Great Britain and the case in the United StateEl, having been worked off, the milIa are now running on low stocks, with orders in advance, which is a fa'\" more healthy state of things than having larQ'e stocks on hand.
find that in Great Britain and the United States, and in Canada as well, there in is an advance in prices, and there is an indication, addition to an advance in prices, of a significant addi· tion in w:lges in the large induftries of the conntry.
It would 110t be well for us to do otheJwi~e than to note in our own country what is ofao muoh importance to the shipping, especially of the Maritime Province", the large incresfle of freights which has taken plaoe anti wbich ht\'\ made th~t industry, which, as far as the carrying trade is concerned, has not been very prosperous for the last number of years, look very eDcouragiD~, and bring in good returns to the owners of vessels.
With reference to our forei~n trade, the total in valDe was, in exports, '90,203,000, and the imports were 8110,89.J:,630, an increase in the exports of 868'7,189, and a decrease in the imports of 81,997,606; being a total decrease in the trade of $1,310,417.
Onr exports, I find, increased to the U oited States, France, Portugal, the West Indies: South America, China al"ld Japan, Australia and ot~er countries; and they decreased with respect to Great Britain, Germany, Spain, Italy, Holland, Belgium, New fo~ndland and Switzerland, the decreases being small, ~lth the exception of Great Britain, and the decrease In trade with Great Britain being largely due to the smaller shipmen ts of cereals and cattle for which the causes are apparent to the cou ntry.
find the exports IMt year were the highest, with, the exception of those of 1~81, 1882, 1883 and 1884.

The imports were the high.

est BlDC8 Confederation, with the exception of 1883, 1884, 188!, 18'12, 1~'13, 1&'14, 1875.

The balance of trade isles8 agaInst the country than in the preceding year, the per centage this year being 18.6 eXOB88 of total imports over total exports &8 against 20."

Jut year, and against an avel'age of 20.41'or the last six years.
I am not going to I I a dieou88 the oft.disoussed question of the balanoe of trade which has been well threshed out in thi" countl'1, and which I suppose is well understood by both sides of the House.

Bat, Sir, I wish to say a word with referenoe to what I consiier to be a very import ant point in oompari Rons, and in order to introduce it, I will read an extract from a speech whioh I think was delivered by my hone friend op1>o!

;ite (Sir Richard Cartwright) at Oakvillo, on Al1llUst 13th, 1888.
Bnd the extraot I have taken is from.

the report in the Globe.

The speaker said: rc How IS it tb&t we find that while in 18T3 tae total Tolume of the traie of the "o'1l\n\ou was $U'I,ooO,OOO in value, yet in 188T, after eight or uine hundred thouqaud people had been al!ded to the population in spite of eX~t1s and mis~overnment,instead of increasing, tbe Tolume h'9 fallen off "nd sunk to abont 1200.000,000?
How is it that we find trade amounting to $58 thA.t whqreaB fifteen years a~o we b ..d. tot"l per head, we have now, taking the figures of our opplUlents, a to"'l of but $12 per head."

Sir, I think that the hon.

~entlemaD need not have goDe further than his own intelligence, and his owu knowledge of commeroial affai rs, to have given the question a latisftiO I wiAh to refer to it here, because I consider tory answer.
it is a oomparison whioh is not strictly fair, and that other facts ou~bt to be brought out in the statement 0 f compar.... tive trade, ag shown by our retarns, comparing 1873 with 1887, for we nnd, on looking into the values of goods jn this country, in the United States, in Great Britain, and the world over, that 1873 was the hig-hest year for values in a Rel'ieR of years from 1868, T mi~ht alO further back, down to 188'7, anrl that the lowest series of values was reaohed in 1881-88.
There are two ways by which you oan compare the trade of tbe country.

You oan compare it by its value, and by its volume.

Our returns simply compare by value, and not bv volume j and if, for instanoe, wheat falls 50 per this country cent.
one year 8S compared with another, the mig-ht export twice tbe quantity at the time of lowe ~t valot', vet, aocording to tho trade retarn, the exports would be no p:reater, and the idea conveyed would there was no ~reater prod uotion, and that no he that greater from the increased produotion resultR came I have here a statement of th is country throughout.
whioh has been prepared for a number of years, and brl)ol!ht up to (late by Mr. Griffin, Secretary of the Board of Trade of En~land, giving the values of enumerated artioles of export and imports for 1873, and from that vear tip.

The modus opernn'1i of getti,,~ at these returns to the oudom houses 1s Rimply thi!\: Mr. Griffin g-oes and obtains the declared value of goods as entered at the custom houses, and he thon dedacee therefrom the rate value.
Havin~ ~ot the rate value in 1873, he applies that to the year with which he comparee 1873, and he thus obtains a fair comparison of the volume of trade upon equal rates a8 between the different years.

Looking at the mat ter in that ligoht, we find that the total exports fr~m Great Britain.

aooordin~ to the declared values, were, In 18'19, 8363,000,000; 1883, 8427,000,000; 1881.

8180.390,000; 1885, '~71,OO,OOO; 1886, '~50,OOO,000.
Those are at the declared values' but if we take the values at the rates of lR'73 and oompa're them we find, for instance, that wherea8 the declared value of th~ exports of Great Britain for 1886 was 1350,000,000, itR value caloulated b>: the prices of 18'13 wa~ 8509,000,000.

That is to say, that, Instead of the trade bein~ but 8350,000,000 in 18R6, if the prioelJ had been equal to the prices of 1873 it would bave AhowD 1509,000,000, or more than 50 per cent.
increase in the volume of trade as 60mpared between 18'13 and 1886.

If you take the im'J)orts in like manner, the declared value of importa in 1886 was 8212.000,000; the valae of the imports at the rate of 18'73 was 8349,000,000.

So, in the oase of exports they the rate of 1813, and the im· were 45 per cent.

higher at ports 64: percent.

higher, as will be ~Q by the following DP"l'.

:- C&WOB DBBArBS.
:- C&WOB DBBArBS.

T,ug which ahowsiu millions of doU.1'8 ihe vAhle of exports uul im tile years l>.~ C!.f enu~elated articles aud of all articles for nA~edt both &$ declared, and as, ~al,cula~d, at the rates of 13'73.

Il:nnmerated Expor~B; EnuD'lerated IlIlports.. Total Exports.

Total Imports.

2R9 Ie .174" 1;40 U ,208, 319 II' 3.63. u l'12 II '172 Jl 3 '8 M;' 3.

()~, 1;22-, I' 14(l"IU'l} U 336" 1403 Ie 1427 u JM~a..•.., l~...... J.Bea..... las4 1.SBl rncZ:e&~ of 1886 over.
18.73, at pricps ofI 1886 383 ( I 390 II , tal 1&.

30Ji ", 2"1 i ' l 384t" ,3U " '·1~a.. over declared' values : , 131" 215 c; 263 II 382t" rc 300 II I( 3111 ¥ sn M 2M II '255 M 438 II 191i" 273 " 51.2 II 2~' II 349 II 498 II 2in ',346 II 213 II 328 II .

607 II 212, It 349 " 350 (j 509" 45p.c~ 64 p.c.

I W;bU~.

i~ is, f~ir tp say tQ..a~ t~61'E) Bfe the returns, and the ~ll1es MOW 80 ~uch in lS~3.. and 80. tp.uch in 1.886, it is ~illQ-t to ~o bebio<J.
t~at stat,e.rpent and enqnjre .Iso but ~b~tb~r t~r~ bll~ bee~ ~ faU or ~ rise if!

prices as between th()8e t,wo- Je~r£l., e,.nd, a~cE>r~iI~ hO\f tlle voIutp~ of trade compaJ:e8.. Qet wAeIl- thO£\6 two perioda.

fQr~ unless you, obtain thpS8 fac~.. y.ou hM'e not a, fa~;r cqmpariso-Tl and vou caonot make a fau 8tatoment withr.esReotto the trBde ufacountry.

A oompar.ison of the.


pri~ of v'arioua articles in i873 and 1886 as shown by: British Oustoms declared values shows the enorJllp'tl~,fan that b~.~ken pla,oe in prices since' the ftrat na~ed year, a8 "ill be8een by the following figures : A,..1tA•• prices of articles mentioned.

frotn declared OostOtns v&Ines in .£t.

;alul deehballof" £.

and in shiUingaand decimals of a shilling.

that insayin~ that think the conclusion is fair.


in values in the articles wb.icll Fiee and fall of the prices iR Canada-DOt in all articles, hat 1ft the ataples in which we trade with Great l1ritain in the way of imports and in the way of exports.

Therefore I in 181n the trade was '21'7,000,000, whilst io 1888 it 1Q8 but '201,000,000, and thereby, trying to deduce the filet that the oountry is not 80 prosperous 80 rar &8 it" firMa is concerned, you do not state the whole truth of the ease.
You h,ave to f!O still further than this and oal61l1ate taat I have there is a fall mentioned, and to the percentage whioh I have m.en tioned, and ill almost aU other articles to a ~reater or lesser extent.

and then yon oome to what I believe to be the true basis ofcomparin~the commeroe of the,oonntry.

so far as re~ardfl the rea.l advantages which are oorivedJ therefrom.

You have to take into acoount the volu.m~ 00 trade, which you can only get by a com parison of prioes between the years.
A sufficient answer to the question of my hon, friend is this: that although the values in 1873 showed 8217,000,000, the volume of trade in lR73, as oaa be easily seen from the faU in 'Pricos, was far l~ss than the the prosperity of volume of trade in 1887. and, therefore, the conntry in an that pertains to enlarged commerce so far as this volume of trade is concerned, was greater in 1888 than it was in 1"73.
Now with reference to the foreign think it Oan be discerned-in the trade of find it in conversation with spirit of the oountry, and I bo~ine8B men and on examination of the business enberpri88 of the country, that the spirit is deveJopiD~ in this country for incrf'lflsing our forei1o{n trade more than it hag been in~ cr~Bed for a number of years past, and for this there are causes whioh I shall mention presently.

Some hop.

MEMBERS.

Hear, he,ar.

Mr. FOSTBR.

the country.

I ~ ' .. .

.

: , 1886.

18'13.


: .

;:~.

, ~ ~ f 8 ~ ~ ,.•:.. .

...•••••••• II 21'184 lb.

18'10d yd 38'~id II 66 68 6\ 42 g~ 6'r 38 :~ 59 53 :~ 8124'65 ton .B 43'1 '!

..£ 5'79 £19·n " £13;21 I I £' 5'13 £23'52 "£1384 £12-0'1 £2$ 95 " £ e'11 £14'58 II £69'55 £29'99 u £~'99 ewt L S'h '£18'86, £23 '75 II s\S'55 s 24'92 II s 30 02 814·28 .
10'C'1d 12'49d 21S'41d_ !48 friends on the other side ar-8 quite in that statement, because, if it be willing to bear me out true, as I have no doubt it i8, they try to gather fromtbat statement, Borne comfort for a lost oause of their own.

The increasing foreign tr~e is developing in this spirit for ~.~--~--_-.--'- - - - - - -'- -_~ 'country, and it is developing becau~ of this reason, The time was when the trade and industries of this counky Iron.

N,a.nd 'Pud dl~d , .


we.re in a depreasod state, woon frolQ 1874 to Ib73, the ~•.

~_t, bol~'and:rQc;l BAr and R.a , '...•... doors of Parliament were bef.ieged by the representatives Wire :~::~: .~ ..•~ ..•••.•.•••.•••.••..••..•••.•••.

of the indul'ltriea of this country which were baing alau.~h.

(Ja1 aDised '••••.•••.•.

Th()sere.pre8en~~.

tered from the U nit-ed States markets.

~ u the hoDo.
~ u the hoDo.

gentleJn~n ltiv8.S then came here and besoui!ht XAnufactureB of steel who then oC(luflled the Treasury benches to protect,theJn- BtaSl (all BortS) Lead~' plr and pipe dustries and the trade of this country against ruinous _., Wro,ugh,t,ap.d ~wro.M"'" , competition.

Why did they do this?

Because, Sk, from ~6ned 8:agar.... _ - 1~6 until that time nnavailin~efforts had beon made by W061'(sbeep and lamb};••••• :.
JllaDneli both Governments, and by botb parties, in all oa,ndor a.nd ~tI earnestness, to Dave the trAde b&~wee~ ,OUfcoulltry and the mte ' tates again p scedon the ~i8 of IBM Of 80lll.a reciprocal hasis, All tbesenegotiation8 were UPAvailipg, and in t~ end· events had co~ to such &.crisis:t.h&t thc_ p,aople of this country were rapidly coming to the,coJ;l.Clusion that if we could ,not_get a reciprocity.
tre~ty.. with the country alongide of U8, we should at, I~aat carve out a. policy of onr own, ".e Bhollkl-bu\ld u.p.ovro;wn·industries,: we sboa:ld giva them the pr{)te~tien: t~~ w~ ~OO8i~ry toWaI;Qs building them up, we, ShOlll,d lJ)a~e a C(Hll,merCO internal tiJ.lle,.and ~ lWhioh we ha4 i~en straQglers to DiP t~ that fiOOUJd lay the foundation for rotlchiog out to a" f~re.ig.n trade whiehcan ,beQi1Jy reached ou-t to after tha.t fo.un~ be tlOn as industria8and com.merce of the country it4~lf.
J .stas this Govern m.ent came to the aid of the people i818tZ8, and ~a.

:ve t~m thlJt,m.easure of ~protectionwhieh·establ~heci·thJ3ir indllf!tri~s" and wbich Now.,!t.

:W~',I.~1 lb.pl.(L.i~.tth.·.•,.

;8, a'ild, I:thiD,k.it, i8.. pIa.i~ t.. o eve.rYi ~B~en.0Quragedal)4Ifastere~ .tbem f .ta~...

1$~9.,t.

(),the.pJ:eaeutt JVe~;~r,o~ft~~!tr6.U8~~.. thi!there, I1f)s.be~~ a larg!

faU'iDtI Just a8 the..GO!Ve[!lJDent~,Qle).


to..t~-o al~ ofrtb~ OOllntry ~h.eD, prll}e8 be 1Veen t~ 'antf'- '1sa1J,t'188" and, 1888.. ' Tbe~1 tbeGov~rnment,ls rea(jy.a(iji, '~J.llUlgJtO!~CQID~ to ttw.ald _of pri6efl taken in England, may be held as a fair index of til".

th~ ..~y JlOJfl and.

: impl~lAe~stOrJI)e,~tl\of it4~biij.ty i811'2~ 818'83-' H •s26-'11 1'27'91 ce .i~:~t ::' .£~:r i 8 4.·~'1.

CI s34iso' '£18'54' ton £'1'85 7 £40'80, s22'}4 II 838 .~~ " 6 .

h stiq oa' I.
h stiq oa' I.

.£ 3''24 road ~ :2:16' £ 8-08· -,II" i£ '2'1'1 ,£,9ilEk CI £' 4'0%.

Q~,.., Wla!

"fl~ ••••••_ ••••••••••'........ Bi.rl~ .•.••••~•••.••.••'.••••••.•••••••.••••••: ~~~::::.::~::'.

:::::::::::::::::::::::: rgg':: WJteatftp~~ 'ish..• -....... T'rOW aDcH)ocliU.ofBax..................

f:l...:::::.:':::.:':::::.:::'::..::::.

::':::::: O~p'~~ .o~ ..•.~ " Oepper' regt81le1l •••., ••••••••• •••••.
lroa,~d eCl~r pyrites •••••••• ••••••• ~wn ,tilP~ S&w~:&J;ia_BP~~ -................... 8tImlii:.......................... -1--------- U' dB I :, ~ £.

299c:wt £.

2'23 B 7'~5 818·01' Cl 8 ;/S·'178 8:' S;e9 H :1':i 25 4~' 33 ~~ 41 8' 34., ~~.

58: 424 \ ea a~ lla t e Internal IKPOB'l's.

_••••~_.. ' 1 d' h ' ..•.... ......: ' ••••••••••••••_ 33- 38 G9 1 : ; . '

f I Kr.

F08T.l\.. B 1889.

COMMONS DEBATES.


449 its can tradJ been on to extend her trade-then, Sir, to cultivate better this desire which is growing and stretching out from the true and 80lid basis of trade prosperity at home, into a foreign trade witb other countries, 80 that we may compete with foreign countries in the different wares that we make aDd the different products that we raise.

This country and this Government has always been desirous of extending its trade to foreign countries.
In all honesty and candor it cannot be denied.

that and be maintained No matter what Government the has Treasury benches, no matter what party has been in power, there has been a continuous and a persistent attempt trade relations between this country and the United States of America in a reciplOcity that should be fair and equally beneficent to both countries.

The negotiations of 1866, of 1869, of 18'71, and of 1888, all bear testimony to that.
But, Sir, if the country to the south of us will not go upon the lines of the late Reci· procity Tn aty, it it will not trade ur-on lines which are fair and equal to both countrie~, and if it continues to show, 8S it has dOl e in the Senate BilL and as it has in the Presi dent's Mel-sage, delivered only yesterday, its reiterated adherence to the high and strong protective system that it has placed about it becomes thi8 country to build upon its own foundationfil, to develop its own vast natural resources, and to further strengthen industries of the country which will enable the internal her into other countries, and to meet there the competition which will be encountered as Canadians can meet it.
This spirit of the people is being implemented by the GOt'ernment.

There are, lying to the 80uth of us, countries that are waling to trade with us and in which an advantageous trade to Canada could be establIshed.

The vast country of Soutb America, with its different governments, with its VIlSt natural re,:,ouroes, with its demand for certain articles which we mm supply of trade the best kind, with us on equal cOLditions with all other countries of the world.
The West Indies, rich in elements of trade whi('h complement ours and needing a great many of the products and manufactures which we can supply, afford a field for what we believe to be a permanent and profitable trade.

trade profitably we believe there must be not only regular communication be· there mU8t be also failly tween the two countries, but that rapid communication a& well.
This Government is pre pared, and has given indications of its determination, to implement the desire of our people to trade with those countries and build up a profitable commerce, and the Gov ernment has put in the Estimates, as we have seen, a sum which Parliament will be asked to vote to establish steam communication between this country, South America and the West Indies.
I have no doubt at all that if this policy is fairly carried out, as I believe it will be, there can be worked up between Canada and those countries of which I haye made mention a large and profitable trade even in the eXIsting ,tate of the tariffrelations of the countries concerned.
Lying far out to the east of us are China and Japan, and the Government mindful of the po88ibilitias of trade in already been developed, has that direction which has pledged itself the subsidy of the home Government to a direct line of steam communication be.

tween the western terminus of the Canadian Pacific Rail· way on the Pacific coast and thoaecountries.
The Canadian Pacific Railway Company has already for a number of months had its steamers on that line, and the possibilities of working up a fairly remunerative and ~!

"Ofitabletrade have been abundantly shown in that time.
Why, Sir, to-day the surplus produot of our cotton mills finds a profitable marke~ in those distant countries, which a few years ago Were loaeceasible to a profitable trade, but which to-<1ay, thanks to the Oanadian Pacific Railway Company And to the e;;t.;r'pri8e of this oountr1 in assiating in th(t conBtruo- In order to carry out to implement is ready tor tbat line of the question of closer line, and one of the best :tion of its road, and thanks to that Bame company for putting on this line of steam communication, we have a 4lirect lines, of communicstiOD with those great countries to the eMt.
TIleD, down on the Southern Paeific Ocean lies a vast continent of islands, which have certain wantB which Canada can implement., and certain productions which Canada can take i and the Government proposes to ask Parliament to aid in the communication be establishment of a direct t ween our western coast and the colonies of Australia aDd New ~aland i and I thillk I am permitted to state here that advices which have been reoeived from the Australian colonies are favorable to the considera tion of trade relations between Canada and the VMt countries which lie in the Southern Pacific.
Then, we have had an Atlantic service whioh for a fleries of years, thongh fairly ~ood, has not been as ~ood as it should be, taken in connection with the com peting lines sailing to the great ports to the south of U8; and the Government to-<layare considering whit means are best adapted for improving that service, 8'Ild placing it on such a footing that Canad ians need not be at all ashamed to compare their route with the liDes of steamshipg which connect with the ports of New York, Boston and Baltimore.
In all this there has been the double aim to develop the in dustry of the country within, and to extend our trade and commerce without.

We have done the first, and now our competition is ovel flowing the borders of oar domestio markets and seeking profitable marketB out:!ide ; and I could, if time permitted, give the House factB which have beeD.
gathered from different manufacturers in this country show ing to what an extent they have worked up profitable fields for their goods durin~ the last three years in those distant countries of which I have spokt'n.
And, Sir', I believe tha~ to be the proper Canadian policy, that we should look first improvement and to to this country, first to its industrial the development of its ~reat natural that we resourOOH, should live in comity and peaoe with the natioDs:to the south of us and all other countries in the world; but at the same time, that neither threat8 of non-intercourse, nor blandish mentA from wilhout, nor speoious pleas from within, should ever bu sufficient to induce this country to hand over i\B commerical independence to any other country in the world.
With a share of this continent larger in size than the Re public to the south of USr and immeasurably rich in natural resources, with a popnla~ion the most nardy in the world.
by virtue of our climate, with immense prodl1otiollS of the great staples of the world's consumption and use, with a future before U8 of peace aB8ured under a flag of a country which i8 the most powerfUl on the sea and the most power ful the wide world over, I believe that Can&da'a futnre lies in a path of steady, courteous treatment of all oountriea with whom we have intercourse, and of a steady persiatent de velopment of her own commercial lines of polioy, for the benefit of her own people, and for a land which is to be the home of future millions.
It being Six o'clock, the Speaker left the Chair.

After Reoess.

Mr. FOSTER.

Whoo the House took rece88, I wu making some rtlmarks with reference to the oommeroe of Oanada and her development in one line of commercial enterprise.

That was especially with referecoe \0 bv foreign commerce, the tables for which are given in our blue books, and which are the data upon which we must rely for oar chief calculations with reference to the improve ment of our foreign trade.
It will, however, be apparent to the House that the foreign trade of a oountry is but one branch of the great stream of commercial life and en ter prise which helps to develop a country and to trauport it.

450 COMMONS DEBATES.

MAROH 6, but the country, products from the plaoe of production to the place of market.
There is another branoh of the oommeroe of a oountry which, although it may not be in the early stages, of 80 great development and so great importance, has, nevertheless, from the very start, an importance of its own which continually grows and continually widenfl, step by step, witb the growth and development of the country j and in many cnses comes to be, after a in volume to the forei~ri series of years, not only equal commerce of in certain particulars is of greater importanee, and has a larger influence upon its development.
Our returns and our statistics, unfortu nately, give us but a very imperfect idea of the volume and extent, and the growth, year by year, of this stream of in ternal or domestic commerce, and what we do get is simply picked up here and there from sources which may be reli able of themselves, but which, being scattered, renders it difficult to generalise, from the information taken at various to oome to a conclusion that can be points, and difficult relied upon to comprehend the full extent and full im portance of onr commerce.
However, this much we may take as certain, that in 1867, at the time of the union of the Pro the domestic commerce and internal trade, a~ be vinces, tween the Provinces now forming the Confederation, was very small in extent, and, as I hope to be able to prove, it has been very rapid in its growth, until at present it has attained a development of the utmost importance to the country, and which deserves to be st udied by all who would fairly appreciate our progress, and who would arrive at we right conclusions with reference to the effect of the policy have adopted.
There were certain circumstances that made the exchange of internal commerce impossible to any large In the first place, these Provinces which extent in 1867. formed British North America, outside of Newfoundland, were scattered.
Each had its own Government; each had its own commercial tariff j ea<lh had its hopes and aspirations bounded by its own limits; and the means of oommuni cation as between the different parts of each Province, and the means of communication between Province and .Province, were of a quality and extent whioh were not to be compared to those that now exist, and their inferior extent must have been powerful in preventing any large internal exchan~e of products.
Besides the ho~tile tariffs and the lack of communication.

there was also a lack of rnn Lual industries and of mutual knowledge.
To build up internal commeroe and to get the full benefits in unifying a country and in stimulating by the example of one' part and the in:fiuence of one sootion, other sections to meet in point of trade the demand and the supply whioh are thus created, in order U> do that, there must be centres of industry in difterent sections of the country which beoome more or less the means resour ces and creating interprovincial demand and supply.
centres an internal demand and By means of an interchange of supply is products.

and There commerce.

should also be, besides these mutual industries, a mutual knowledge existing between the different parts of a coun in 1867, that knowledge was at its minimum.

try.

Now, The people of Nova Scotia may have had, in its different sections, a good idea of the Province of Nova Scotia as a whole.

They knew a little of New Brunswick, but little in comparison to what they do now.
Of Prince Ed ward Island and of Nova Scotia the same may be said, although these Provinces, lying more closely together and being more easily traversed, had a larger amount of mutual know ledge and mutual interests than existed between.

say, the Maritime Provinoes and the central part of the Dominion, or between the central part of the Dominion and the extreme western Provinces.
So that, these thinp into consideration, it is impo88ible that there should have been a very large stream of internal trade, and the causes builds up internal of developing individual created which taking all sectional these ~.

FOITH.
FOITH.

has into been labor examining in the various growth that has taken plaoe in that can be fairly appre ciated by f\tudying for a moment the growth of communi cations, the increase of lines of transport between Province and Province and between the different scctions of each Province.

Since that time, the whole of the Provinces have been placed under one central Government.
Since that time, these have been joined together by lines of communica tion extending from the remotest part of the east to the Pacific coast, and branching out in hundreds of dift't:rent directions to every section of the country, and all of theBe have means of communication, have had an influence, one cannot overrate, in developing sections through which they pass, as welt as of rendering the general current of com merce and of communication more easy of constant flow.
I believe, if we had the full statistics of internal commerce and domestic trade of this country, that to-day they would prove a revelation to our people, and we would place more store upon that increased domestic trade, instead of placing so muoh ~tore by the whole stress of our investigation on our foreign trade, when we knew the extent of thi8 current which is vivifying every part of Confederation in its internal progress.

We may, however, g~t at something of this from different sources.
Within the last few months, there has been sitting at various times and at various parts of the Dominion appointed by this of Canada, a commission of the Government which labor and the relations between it and condition of industries; and in the course capital of their investigations, a mass of most useful knowledge has been gathered, and is now compiled in their report, a study of which will help us to a better appreciation of many of these questions than we have hitherto been able [hold in my hand some gleanings prepared on to come at.
the subject taken from the information gathered by that commission.

Before taking np the items to which I have alluded, I find that the records of the Intercolonial Railway show that there is a steady improvement of trade which continues to develop between the Maritime and the Upper Provinces and the far west.
Take last year's returns alone, and we find that the Maritime Provinces have Bent to the Upper Provinces, coal, and fisb, and refined sugar, and cottons, tackle and co~dage and twine, hardware, wooden· Wdr~, leatber hats, cloths, woollens, chocolate, glue, dry goods, soaps, potatoes, oats, starch, manu actures of iron, cattle, machinery, boots and shoes, building stone, hay, fruit trees, plaster, lumber, grindstones, and numerous other arti cles of smaller volume.
We find that the St. Lawrence pro· vinces have sent manufactures of iron, flour and meal, coarse grains, oats, barley, corn, meats, agricultural implements, woodenwork, wire fencing, earthenware, paints and colors, hides, cheese, and numerous other articles.

The Marysville Ootton Mia, a mill of very large oapacity near Frededcton, reports sales in 1888 to the Upper Provinces over four times in advance of the previous year.
We find the Nova Scotia Steel and Forgoe Co.ofNewGlasgowreportssalesduringtbe pastfive years of nearly one million of dollars, and they aJ;p making steady progress, and in tons their output for la8t year showtl 35 per cent.

increase over that of the previous year, and the sales for the Upper Provinces continue to increase.
St. John Cotton M.ills have sent between 5900,000 and 81,000,000 worth of their products to the Upper Provinces the last four years, and their sales in 1888 to these Provinces were '10 per cent.

more thlln those of 1886.

We find the Moncton Cotton .Mill~ report a steady increa~e in their sales to the upper Provinces.

We find the Moncton Su~ar Refinery reports sales to the Upper Provinces of 13,296.000 lbs.

of their products.

We find the Yarmouth Woollen Mills report 20 per cent.
increase in their sales to the upper Provinces in 1888 over 1887.

Comin~ now U> the items ofinformation in the Labor Report, I glean from the Royal Labor Commi88ion report the following: Take the Province of New Brunswiok.

Mr.H.

Butler, of St.John, says, "The demand for CaDadiaq 1889.

COMMONS DEBATES.

451 get tops ourselves~ we get Mr. McAvity, St, stone is becjming greater!'
Mr. Sutherland, of the French port Quarry, says, " We have been sending atone to Ottawa and Hamilton, and grindstones and box atone to Montreal."

Epps, Dodd & Co., of the St. George's Granite Quarries, say, "Two-thirds of our goods go to Ontario."

Mr. Broad of the St. Stephen's Broad Axe and Edge Tool Manufactory: says, " We ship to British Columbia and Montreal, and our agents in Montreal send all over Quebec and Ontario."
Mr. Coutts, of the St. George's Granite Quarries, Bays, " Our market is principally in tile United States and Ontario."

Mr. Fowler, edge tool manufacturer of St. John says, 1'1 sell springs and axles in MontreaI."

Mebsrs.

Allison of St. John, dry goods and shirt manufacturers, say, " We sell all the goods in Montreal and the Maritime Provinces."

Mr. Brown, harness maker, Stry8, "We UBe altogether Upper Province leather.
North-West hides are the best," Mr. Burnham, furniture manufacturer, says, "Some woods fOl" in Canada, What furniture we do not furniture we get make from Ontario and Nova John, brass founder, says, Scotia."

" We sell most of our goods in Ontario."

Mr. Connors, of the St. John Rope WorkFl, says, " We send a great deal of A carriage bindery twine to Ontario and Manitobfi."

builder says, " Very few American carriages are imported into St. John.

There used to be Ii.

Dumber imported a few years ago."


Mr. Edgecombe Eays, "We get carriages from Guelph and Montreal."

Mr. Robinson, carriage buil "There are very few American springs im der, says, from the Upppr leather ported now.

We Provinces, other parts of carriages from Galt and Guelph.

We import from away up in Ontario."

Mr. Shaw, carriage builder, says, " We sell our carriages all over the Maritime Provinces, and we have sent some as far as Ontario."
Mr. DeWolfe, of St. Stephens, carriage builder, says, "There is a gIeat improvement in Oanadian colors, and 1 think they compare favorably with any colors made.

This year we have used Canadian colors principally."

Mr. Ganong, con· fectioner, says, "We consider Canadian sugar fully equal to American.

The average priue has been lower than in the States, We use mostly Oanadian."

Mr. Bell, cigar manufaoturer of St. John, says, "We sell and ship goods to Quebec."
Mr. A. Gibson, of Marysville, cotton manufac turer, says, " We find our market all over Canada Manitoba, British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec/' Mr. Hazelhurst, Exoelsior manufacturer, says, " We have sent to M.ontreal."

Mr. RUBBel, tlpool manufacturer, Excelsior says, "We ship our Excelsior to different parts of the Dominion, as far as Toronto."

Mr. Macfarland, manufacturer of small hardware, says: "We send all over Canada, as far 88 81 itish Columbia."
Mr. Ketchum, Cold brook Rolling Mills, says: "We sell most of our iron in the Maritime Provinces and Quebec."

Mr. Leetch, paper bag maker, says: "We get stock for our bags and tags in Montreal.

We find it to be cheaper and just as good as that imported."

Mr. Moore, nail manufBcturer, of St. John, eays: "Our trade with the west is limited, but we have sent copper goods to Toronto and Montrea!."
Mr. Thompson, manu· C( We find a market all over these faoturer of paints, says: Provinoes and down in lower Quebeo," Mr. Nelson, papel' manufacturer, says: " We send west to Toronto."

Mr. O'Neill, boots and shoes, Bays: "We get our leather from improvement in Oanadian goods."

Ontario.

Mr. Henderson, mantels and grates, says: "We have a market in Ottawa and Montreal."

Mr. Stevens, mannfac turer of hosiery, says: "We buy a great deal of fine yarns from Quebec Province."
Mr. Vroom, manufacturer of slip pe~s and oil-tanned larrigans, says: "W(;j sell our goods prIncipally in Ontario and Quebec, and get some leather t~om Ontario."

Mr. Young, nut and bolt works, says: "The nvets that we make are mostly sold in .Montreal.

We I find a great to able throughout are and Montreal compete with Toronto firms, and our bUAiness is steadily inoreasing," A few examples from Nova Scotia.

M.r.
M.r.

Allison, of the J. P. Mott works, says: "The consumption of ohooolate all over the Dominion has steadily increased for 80me years baok."

Mr. Boak, fish merchant of Halifax, says: "We ship of fresh fish between 200 and 250 tons in the season, most of it to the Upper Provinoes."

Mr. Oland, brewer, says: "We ~et about 500 bushels of malt a week from Ontario."

Mr. 0'Mullin, brewer, says: "We purchase Our mal t in Ontario."
Mr. Smallwood, of the Acme Skate Factory, says: " We sell our skates all over the Dominion," Mr. Stairs, Dartmouth Rope Works, says: "We send cordage to Ontario and binder twine to Ontario, Manitoba and the North-West."

Mr. Turnbull, of the Nova Scotia Sugar Refinery, says: "75 per cent.

of onr output goes into the Dominion."


Now, these are but Canada, Mome samples of what a more diligent and extended ex· amination would show to be a large and increasing volume of trade which is taking place and oontinually growing between the outlying portions of this Dominion, and especially in this respect between the Maritime Provinces and the Upper Provinccs,and conversely.
It we take again, as an index of this trade, the statistics of the Intercolonial Railway, the great central line of oommunication between the Maritime Provinces and the west, we find a very instruc tive series of figures, some of whioh I have tabulated,.and will read to the House.

In 1876-77, the number of tons oarried over the Intercolonial was 421,3:l7.

In 1887-88, the number In HI76·77, was 1,275,995 t0DS, an increase of 20J per oent.
254.7l0 barrels of flour were carried over the road, and in 1887-88,845,750, an increase of 232 per cent.

The grain car ried in 1~76-77, was 292,b52 bushels, and in 18~7-o8, 1,211, 540 bushels, an inorease of 314 per cent.

In 1876·77, there was carried 58,096,475 feet of lumber, and in 1887-8\ 196,444, 819 feet, an increase of 238 per (·ent.

The number of live stock carried in Ih76-77, was 37,414, and in Ib87-!

:I8, 90,439, an inorease of 141 per oent.


The quantity of other goods carried in 1876-77, was 311,756 tons, and in 1887-8~, 877,396, an increase of 181 per oent.

The passengers oarried in 1876-17, were 613,4~0, and in 1887-g~, 996,194, an increase of 62 per cent.

The earnings in 1876-77, were 8682,549, and in 18h7-~8, 81,778,5~9, an increase of 160 per cent.

'fhe working expenses in 1876-77, were 88~6,17a, and in 1~87-88, 82,065,538, an increase of 130 per cent.
Taking the tons of raw sugar shipped from Halifax and St. John, we find that in 1884, 21,53~ tons were shipped, and in 1~88, 23,742 tons, an increase of 10 per cent.

The tons of refined sugar shipped from Halifax, Moncton and Dartmouth in 1884 were 20,790, and in 1888, 30,917, an increase of 49 per cent.

The tons of coal shipped from Nova Scotia to the Chaudiere Junction were in 1884, 112,898, and in 1888, 184,662, an increase of 64 per cent.
that no person can read this table of increase and peroentages of increase, without being struck with the enormous development of the traffic on that the great central line of communication between the Mari time and the Upper Provinces.

think, Sir, I Mr. OHA.RLTON.

Before the Minister passes from that subject I would like to enquire whether there are any con clusions or estimates as to the amount of our internal com merce last year, in dollars, as a whole?

M.r.

FOSTER.
M.r.

FOSTER.

None that I know of, it is impossible to get it.

There are no statistics which will give it; we can only get bits of information and generalise as best we can I have here a statemept of the principal from these.

the Intercolonial Railway from articles transported over the Upper Provinces to stations in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick: COMMONS DEBATES.

MAROH 5, 452 Articles.

• ••••••••• eo · .

.. •••• •.••.

_.

••••••••• •••••••••• •••••••• Iron And manufa.ctured iron Flour and meA!.
BrAn, shorts and middlings ••••• Oats Barley..... Corn, peas and beaDs Butter, cheese aDd lArd Hay and straw......... Meats Leather and hides Merchandise Btone and slatt' Salt Machinery and agricultural implements ••••• Woodwork, furniture, &c...... Live stock Wire and wire fencing •••••.

•••••.

Earthenware...... Oil, pain t and tar Oanned goods .. Lumber and building materiaL.... Fruit and vegetables Ootton Fish...... Lime and cement ,.

• •••••.

_ Tons.
..,.... 1,372 61,369 .••.. 15,331 501 280 " 2,109 421 304 1,653 404 19,525 73 55 944 665 7 87 143 1,845 63 1,424 259 998 22 305 Passing from the indications which are given by the figureS which I have read as to the amohnt of trade which is taking place in an increasing volume over the Intercolonial Rail· way, and between the M.aritime and Upper Provinces, and conversely, let us enquire for a moment what is taking place on a different element and by a different mode of carrying pc>wer, 8S is shown in the coasting trade in the I have here a table the results of Dominion of Canada.
which, I think, will be equally satisfactory to the Canadian who is proud of the progress of his country, as the figlires which I have read of railway traffic over the Intercolonial Railway: 1879.

1888.

Increase.

Per cent.

------ - - - - - - ----- Oanadian coasting trade.
Atlantic aad e'llf do do Steam tonnage Ba.ilinp; vessels do Man power employed....... Atlantic and do Gulf Point .................... Pacific coast c.Jast'g trade Man power do 10,863,329 14,677,255 4,ll2,024 876,954 $12,066,683 $18,789,279 $6,722,596 5,\79,882 790 "986, 1,736,806 272,649 250,0551 1,434, 266 1 1,211,5li9 43,806 6,683,447 9,691,465 2,375,2l8 604,305 278,251 I 223,707 15,685 528,306 Ml,991 1 66 9l 51 73 45 90 541 276 to the steamer the sailing vessel, In respect tonnage, we find, as Bhown above, an increase ot Do per cent.
during those two periods.

Of sailing vessels, the lDOreaBe was 1iS per oent, showing that although there is a large increase in the steam tonnage of coasting vessels, for coasting pur poses, still keeps its place ahead of steam.
These figures and this pI ogress, while gratifying to all Canadians because now all Canadians take an interest in every section of this country-must be particularly g; atifying to the representatives and the people of British Columbia, who are 80 proud of their beautiful Province and who have such confidence in its future development.

Sir, we find trad.e gives us another that the d6velopment of the ooal indication which may te relied upon, to a certain extent.
Ooal and iron, of course, are being btimulated in their pro duotion, output and manufacture.
The ooal product in Canada the produce in 1888 in 186tl amounted to 628,31:)2 tons j was 2J449, 7~3 tons, an immenstJ increase mainly taking place in Nova S'cotia and Gape Breton, and on the Pacific coast, although the coal aretts, which are known to exist all over the North-West, are being profitably worked at several points, and the output is largely inoreasing in the great west, or the middle section of our country.

Taking J4r.
Taking J4r.

FOiTIl:a. an also freight exports furnishes to have the Vanadian Pacific Railway, the great line ofoommunica tion which joins Our central system with the Pacific coast, traffic is also we find that the increase of interprovincial satisfaotory.

The tons carried by the Oanadian Pacific Railway in 1885 were 1,996,355; in 1888 they were 2,508, 600, P888engers carried in 1885 were 1,660,119; in 1888 The earnings of that road in the number was 2,239,800.
1885 were $8,368,493; in 188~ the earnings were '13, The inter·provincial tonnage oarried east and 190,535. west from Port Arthur during the 11 months of 1881-88 are as follows: In 1881, 116,421 tons; in 1888, 218,213 ton8, an increaEe in the 11 months of 101,792 tons.

The Asiatic indioation of the stimulation of domestic industries carried out to a foreign I in think it country, and would not be uninteresting to the House, in this con figures of actual proceeding.
the junction, In 1887 the inward and outward Asiatic freight was 11,589 tons; 1888, 13,048 tons.

In 1887 the quantity of In 1881 tea carried was 13,805,022 lbs.

; 1888, 13,444,269. the silk oarried was 466,687 lbs.

; 1888, 475,014.

In 1887, g-eneral merchandises, 2,388,138 lbs.

j "1888, 2,056,787; In 1887, ootton goods, 5,19H,173Ibs.

; 1888,8,826,772 lbs.j In IM88, 467,539 lbs.

In 1881, machinery, 55,591 lhe.

; 188'7, general merchandise, 48~,608; 1888, 298,031.
In 1881, cotton goods from Canadian mi1ls, 1,'142,200 IbB.

j 1888, 2,009,947 lbe.

This bears out the assertion I made.

in the early part of my statement that there has been a decided inorease in the exports of Canadian cotton mills to China and Japan.
As showi ng the movement of grain in in connection with the Manitoba and the North-West Canadian Pacific Railway it may be mentioned that in 1887 the grain moved by the Canadian Pacific Railway from Manitoba and the North-West reached 11,141,160 bushels, while the local grain movement in Manitoba was 1,248,219 bushels, making the total grain movement over the Oanadian Pacific Railway that year 12,989,379 bushels.
From these indications, which aro after all but partial in dications, I think we may be justIfied in believing that the development of the internal commerce of this country has marched apace, as it was natural it should do, with the opening up of new sections, with the establishment of industries and especially with the establishment of facilities for communic~tion between outlying parts of the same Provinces and between the different Provinces forming the Dominion.
I win weary the Hou~e no longer with my statement so far as that is concerneJ, believmg however that the items gathered with a good deal of pains and trouble cannot but be interesting and instructive to the people of this country.

And now, in conclusion, I will ask your in.

the attention of this dulgence, Mr. Speaker, while I call House to an extract from a speech delivered by the leader of the Opposition at Oakville, in Augu6t, 188~, as it was published in the Globe.

The hon.
The hon.

gentleman, speaking there made this.

80S I thiLk, extra<1rdinary statement.

He said: "It is now 21 years !linee Confederation was established.

We started with the hope-is it not true ?-we started with the hope, as it was told at that time, that we would link together tbe Britich Provinces on the continent of AmeriCA, that we would bind them together with ties of affection and mutual pride and that we would make them a nation.
Such was our dream, 8uch Wt\S our hope often expreued, often repeated.

Now, I ask everyone i'1 this Audience, no matter whAt may have been in the past his political predilections, no matter whether he has been a Conservative or a Reformer-I ask everyone ill this audience.

looking back over the time, how tar have we advanced in the task we let ourselves to perform 21 years ago?

Bir, the painful answer must be that we have not advanced one iota, one 8inglejvt."
The House and I think the country as well will understand why I denominated this an extraordinary utterance for a gen tleman who has the political knowledge, and who I believe bas at heart-I should like to believe at least that he has at heart-that patriotism which a Canadian statesman shouid possess.

What Are the asseJltions he makes?


First, that what I it of the but that their limits own Provinoe, feeling so much that the country alorlg w(Jll think the visitor who approached had beon ma ie, COMMONS D'EBATES.

458 1889.

--------------------_-._-------------------- we have set out to 40 was to link together the British Pro· an expanding future hasopon the growth ofa young country.

vinces on the continent of America.


We have not advanced Make it believe that there is nothing in the future in point ODe single jot in that", respect, @ays tbe hon.

gentleman.

of great development or of national ~tatU8, that there is not Second, to bind together in bonds of mutual affection and a future of hope and promise and you have put one of the pride the people of this country.

We have not advanced ~trongest limits to a country's developing powers.
To-day a s:ngle iota in that direction, saye the hon.

gentleman.

we find Nova Scotians, New Brunswickl·rs, Prince Edward 1.

'hird, to make of this country a nation.

And there ha~ fslanders, men from Ontario and QUf'bec, and every other they are bound been no advance in that regud.

Sir, I think an hon.
gen- Province, not believ tleman who could make an asscrtion like this in view of the by 21 years of progress of this Confederation must have ing ard feeling and working out teeling and be ~hut his eyes to every part of the reoord which was lief that they fire now citizens of a larger country, that they plainly written before him, if he could not see the progress are ehizens of a country which, in extent and in reRources, ig greater than most countriet; of the world, and is inferior made in every part of this country towalds linking together these outlying Provinces.
to but few.
We live now under one Government; we have I think he must have closed his ears to the sounds of progress which would have greeted the uniting power which comes from a oommon political them if he had kept them open from every part of the literature; we have all that uniting power which (}omes country, 8bowingwith every fall of the hammer, with every from a common commerce and intercourse whioh spreads tUl'n of the wheel, the mUUlDI interests which were being from end to end of travelled welded together, and which were being brought into play on lines, and it is simply astonishing to me that a man of in the line of making these people interdependent on each teJIigence and a man of patriotism oan stand up in any POI' other, of making them eBSential to each others wants, and tion of Canada in this year 188~, and can suy that, as far the Provinces, there has not been espeoially linking them together in the bonds of commer- as linking together cial onion and in the bonds of social and political union aa a sin~le step mane in adv81l0e from HHi7 to 18)~.
That well.

Let me take up, if you please, Mr. Speaker, these hon.

gentleman said, in the second place, that what was items a little in detail.

First, the hOD.

gentleman said we pl'opD.

!wd WDS to bind the people together in ties of mutual have not made a single step in advance towards linking tbe re~pect und ~tfeotion, and that in that direction no advanoe I tilke is~ue with my hon.

friend on that Provinces together.


1, a8 a New these shores in 1861 and took a survey of the Uanadian point and take issue with him most Htrongly.

rospeot aod Provinces as they were then and the same visitor who Brunswick man, plead guilty to ties of mutual retarns to·day to our Bh0res Bnd takes a survey of Canada uffection for my hon.
friend, with hi8 kindly manner, with is to.day, cannot but be impressed with the sharp his cultured intellect, and, ~il', I should novel' huvo known tl~ contrast presented in every line, and particularly in the my hon, friond, in all probabilily, had it not boon thut these condition of the oountry now as compared with the con· Provinces became united, and that in this gradual getting together of people from different parts of this country 1 dition of the oountry then.
At vinces widely scattered, with hostile tariffe, with no lines became acquaiuted with him, What hat; taken plaoe in of communication.
The Maritime Provinces during seven this one particular is but a sample of what is taking plaoe months of the year had no way_ to reach the Upper every day, hI' the people of one part of the oountry become Provinces except and no acquainted with the people of another to whom they would way the year except have remained strangers for ever if it had not been that the the during by a long oircuitous route by the sea.
The two Pro- Provinces were united into a one country, with a common vinees in the centre of the country had no access to the Government a mutual commerce and a common politICal It h~ hard b analyse anll it is mOt'jt difficult to e~ti· great country of the North-West except the way and then to make an overland mate the real importance of what take~ place in this ailent country part of iourney by river or by vehiole into some portions of the and quiet way.
Every viHitor from tho remote par·t of one country in the North, West.

The North-West itself was a Province or who goes from tho older Province~ to tbe far terra inco9flita, it was unkn<Jwn even to the few people who we:'\t, hs'I a power in}'ctei into hiH life which fitlJ~ its way It was a~ unknown as is tbe out into the associations of hiFJ whole alter lifo, and which lived in sometJections of it.
centre of Africa to the people of the Maritime Provincos, acting upon many units in the way in whioh it acts on the snd to the mass of the people of the two centre Provinces one doelS more than we can imagine to make U8 one people, ss well.

The mountains that run north and south between and to combine together in tle8 of mutual affection anQ British Columbia and the North-West forbade all interLourse e~teem the people of thiH common oountry, living as they do The han.
gentleman between that country and the Pacifio Province.

Now, what UDder one common government.

appeartl?

the outset was to thIS country a nation; whatever he could a very ttate that Scotia interseoted with almost have meant every the grudllsl1y oountry the the more generoll~ !.iontimenttl and the OOD ~ ew Brunswick life, larger lllg from greatness contin larger mileage fidence and pride which comes lInion than probably 8,..y other country in the world, ually in progre!
:lM and continually in growth or whether Be sees long lines of splendid communication stretohing my hon.

friend meant Independenco I do not know.
1 do fro~ HaItfax to Montreal, 8tretching from Montreal to the know that whether it De one or the other, a8 far a8 all es PaCl~C and joining with steamship lines east and west, thus sential elements of growing nationality and greatnes8 are formIng a eommunication which unites the great east in concerned, there ha'J bet'n a power at work in this Dominion Europe with the great east in Asia by the shortest and best of Canada from 186~ to 1888 which has simply been mar· r()ut~ for muoh ot the oommerce and for the largest pro- vellou" in its wid ~h and its force, a9 well U~ in hs re@ult.
portIon of the passenger tramo between those great !

:leotions ant effects.

What are the elcment~ of nationalhfe whether of the world.
He found then, Sir, different Governments) you mean independent nationullife, or whether you mean he found then different tariffs, he found then the hopes and the life of a ~reat ,half co ltinent like ours unit~ in the thoughts of each Province bounded within itself with· mutnal t::onds of atf'tJctIOn of blood alJd of common national o~t any, great future to look to j and no student of history ity with ot~er countrieB eq.ually large in extent and gre~ter enher In the past or in the present will fail to Bue toe vast Iin populatIOn all belongmg to.
the ?ne great EmpIre, ejfec~ and the mighty developing iniiaenoe that the hope of what I ask are the elements of national bfe 1 They are ,rea~ vbitor who comes here to-day finds t;aitl by that, whether sbould take intersectei with in it was meant upon itself that what wa!

:l proposed at of railways the running to country.

tbrough a foreign centre.

finds Nova make of finds possess· popu other months of time we had Pro The different through foreign important part things.
He proportion territory, railways, to her that He of a 454: COMMONS DEBATES.

MARCH 5, Mr. HILLS.

None whatever.

Mr. LANDERKIN.

The national debt.

Mr. FOST ER.

None whatever, saY8 my hone friend.

Well, there never will be so long &S Buch a Bourbon as my hon.

friend from Bothwell (Mr. Mills) is a judge of what has been a revelation.

Has there been no revelation of the great resources of this @ountry to the people of Canada trom 1868 to the prel!lent time?
resources, great industries, great traffic and ~nsequent great'.

Mr. LANDERKIN.

Yes, if we can get them developed.

Mr. FOSTER.

Sir, has there not been an inorease in development.

Look .at the resources of thiS country.

Has great industries since 1868 till to.d~?

That question has there been no revelatIOn from 1868 to 1888 ?
been 80 often discuBSed on the 1loor of this House, and has a literature which is so well known to the people of this country, that it would be bold in me to attempt to take np the time of this House (or a single moment in trying to es tablish the fact that from 1868 to 1888 there has been an immense stride forward in the establishment of indDsrtial life and of industrial centres in this country.

Has there been no great and growing traffio in this country?
Why, Sir, our export trade, judged by values alone, has increased from 1868 to 1888 60 per cent., and our total trade 50 per in value were taken into cent; and if the difference account, the trade in volume would be found to have in creased in those twenty years more I believe than twice To-day the Dominion of Canada, in the 21st its amonnt.
year of its existence, has a foreign commerce, in addition to its internal trade, amounting in value to '41.40 per capita of its population, while the United States has a per capita foreign trade of but '~3.

Now let me ask tbis House to listen to some few statements which will show by the strongest kind of argument, the immense development whi,\h bas taken place in the manufactures of this country.
I have before me a table of the averages and percentages of raw material imported into Canada for home consump.

tion, the items of which show an immense development of industrial life, and oonsequently of trade life of the country.

In order to make this statement as fair 8S I possibly could, inB~oad of taking single years and comparing them, I have taken two years at the beginning and two yearl:1lot the end, and compared the average of tbe two yearli together in each case.
These figures I will hand to the reporter, so that they may be spread upon ,he records:- Mr. FOST ItR.

Has there been no revelation of the immense resources in lands which belong to the country and of the productive soil power which at the time of Confedera tion was not dreamed of by the inhabitants of the country; resources of has there been DO revelation of our great mines and mineral wealth.

My hon.
My hon.

friend who sits oppo site to me (Mr. Charlton) has been for the last few months a worthy member of a Mining Commission which has gone east and west Mnd north and south.

I have read 8peecbe~ by tha.t hon.

gentlema.n, and I have read reports of the investigations of that commission, and I believe I am per· fectly right in saying that within six months a revelation had himflelf of ·the hon.
resources and variety and value of the mining riches of In the North-West and in parts of the older this country.

Provinces these resources are gradually coming to light, until to.day, in ~he Dominion of Canada, reSOurces which are of immense extent and which in the future will become immense Bources of wealth to this country have become apparent to all.

been made to my friend AVERAGE and percentage of raw material imported in Canada for home consumption.

Wool.

Ootton.

Sugar.

Gutta.

Percha.


Jnnk and Oakum.

Broom Corn.

- - -------- -- - - ---- --- -- -- --- -- --- - - - do do .

AYerage .•••••.

18f9-70 .

.

1887-88 1869-88•.•.••••..•••.......•.•.

Increase.

••••.. 1887 88 over avo 1869-'10.

1869-88.

....... 188'1-88 do do Ibs 3,210,785 7,008,012 5,230,039 118 pc .

34p c .

Ibe Ibe.

1,418,671 ~9,018,876 33,388,766 188,693,004 17 ,39'1,742 104,026,200 2,253 P e.. 650 p.c .
Slpe .. 9ap.e $ $ 1,038,861 119,338 1,805, 293 515,168 1,263,310 338,'145 74 p.c .•.

'1331 p.c 52 p.c.

43 pc ..· 1 $ $ $ $ 61,017 9,741 227,071 65,374 54,096 62,025 830,858 108,724 93,612 616,213 54,341 34,576 266 p.e 96 p.e '1)37 p e - 11 p.e.

61 p.e.

16 p.e.

79 p.c.

noflp.c.

$ 5,521 52,3l4 30,26t\ 848 p.e 73 p.c.. $ 11~,001 129,600 100,984 16 P c. 28 p.e.. 'C l:l ~ ~ ~ .

~-Ss.... ~~ I -- ---- --- ---- --------- --- --- --- ~Q~ ~~~ Furl and Skins.

Fibres.

Hemp.

'T:!


Jute and ~ ~ Jute B. g~ ~ Bristles.

Hair.

A"eragE' 1869-70.... ••••• 11887-88 1889-88 .

.•... do do 1 I!lcreasE' 1887-88 ••.

oYer 1869-70......... over 1869-88...... ••.

1887-88 do S 47,227 72,619 51,625 !l3 p.c 41 p.c $ .

.. .

.. .

$ $ $ 9,192 ...... ...... 31,195 19'4121'.'

•.••••.

1 271 '789 138,886 14,71& ••••••• III p.c.. ••• 3lp •••-I._ '171 p.e /96 P .. $ $ $ 24,054 12,315 143,485 73'662136'3751471'029 49,204 ATara.ge, 1880-81............. ••••.•••.
1887-88................ .... 1880-88...................... 23,672 310,71& Increase, avo 1887-88 over av 1880-81..... do do .

7,020 161,874 93,761 2,206 p.e.

206 p.c.

195p.c.

328p.c.

[ncreese, avo 1887-88 over AT.

1880-8S_... ••••••.•.

•..••••• ..... ...... 73 P c 49p.c.

64p.c.

52p.c.

- - - - - - - .

- .

- - .

- - - - - - - Average 1879-80...... ..•.. .

1887-88 1879-88... ...•••••.

•••_ .•••••••.

do do .••- ..•·...1 261,231 .

740,342 622,052 • • •••• •••••.


2,40S .•• ••••••••• 17,666 ••• 17,981 IncreaseI18~~~~~V~.~.~~ 1887-89 over avo do 1879-88 .Mr.

FOSTBB, 1 183 p.e .

19 p.c.. 1,049 p.c 64 p.e.

I .••••••••••• • •• ••••• •••••••••.

••••••••• .••••••• ATerage, 16'1'1-78..... 1887-88...... 1817-88...... Inereaae, AV.

188'1-88 do do ·······1····..···· In~;:~:~·a~~7ls::.

:ss I Silk, Sausage ~~ Oasin.!.

: ~, 140 25,375 18,653 24,369 155,2'12 91,2'l2 537 p.c ··'1 708 p.c.

••••••••• over av.

187'1-88.... '10 p.e.


••• 36 p.e.

1889.

COMMONS DEBATES.

451 This table, Sir, ,shows the immense progress whioh has and produ~t of the country, and in the seoond plaoe, what been made in the importation of raw materials whioh go is a corollary of that, an increase in the internal commeroe In the exports from Cana.da the same into tbe industrial establishments of this country, and whioh of the country.
are worked up by the labor and industry of the country, development is shown: showing, in the first place, a development of industrial life STATDlBNT respeoting Exports from Canada from 1868 to 1888.

- Fisheries.

Kines.

Forests.

Agricultural Animals and produlm.

products.

Cattle.

Apples.

Oheeae.

lIanufac- tures.

--_._-- ----- --- --- --- - - - ---- - - - - - - --- Exports in 1868 .... •••••.
!Ii 3,357,510 $ 1,446,867 !Ii 18,262,170 $ 12,8'11,066 Exports in 1888,........... 7,793,183 4,110,937 21,30!,814 $ $ 6,893,167 (18'14) 751,269 16,436,360I 24,1l9, 297 I 6,0".m (1874 to 1888) 49,364,094 $ 80,1:-16 !Ii 617,364 $ 1,672,648 8b7,995 8,928,2U 4,161,283 6,768,21H 89,880,9~2 64,901,498 Total from 1868 to 1888.

127, 'H2,2J9 72,560,927 462, 1ge ,606 363,&21,686 349,619,41C Average.

'............- ......

Percentage of increase, 1888, onr average_...


Percentage of increase, 1888, over 1868 ••••••••.

6,007,7J5 3,4~5,'282 22,009,076 17,310,556 16,648,643 3,290,939 322,297 4,280,000 3,090,M' 28'64 132'11 18'~ I 184'12 g'21 16'65 10'82 111'89 48'48 258'60 52 p.c.

(over 1874) 667 p.c.

166 p.c.

971 p.c.

1··1 1,345 84 p.c.


164 p.c, If we look also at the increase in the direction indicated by the next table and which shows more particularly the large development of the business of the country, "e find the same gratifying progress: ---------------------- --------- --------- -------- ---- 1868.

1888.

Increase or Decrease.

Per cent.

of IDcrease.

$ &0,&00,316 173,185,812 122,685,496 243 ' - Discounts, Ohartered Banks - _....
Overdue Notes and Debts in Chartered Banks on each $100 bor- , .• , &I &I P. e. $ " rowed (decrease) Bank Notes in circulation Deposits in Ohartered Banks_...... .••••.

••••• .•••••••. "

••••••••• .•••••••• Savings Branches, Building Societies and Loan Oom- :::::::..~::::::::: :::::: Sa~~~ie~~~.:::::::.::.:::::.:::::::~:::::::.

:: •••••.

••••.

II •••••••.•••• •••••••••••.

No. "

II $ Money Orders issued Letters and Post Cards sent......
Miles of Railway Built, Passengers C8rried Receipts from Passengers carried Freight carried ..•.. , Receipts from Freight carried Seagoing and IDland Lakes, ~hipping Employed, not including ,....... ""... ' " $ ' ' Coasting Vessels _ Tonnage of Shipping, with Oargo and in Ballast (seagoing), en- tered, inwards_ wards _., Tonnage of Shippiag, with Oargo and in Ballast and cleared, out- External Commerce (water-borne), toDS, Merchandise, brought in... and carried out Merchandise carried to and from Canada in Seagoing Vessels.
IC II U Inwards, tons, weight ''' ••••' Merchandise carried to aad from Canada in Seagoing Vessels.

.•••.• Merchandise carried to and from Canada in Seagoing Vessels.

Inwards, tons, measure _••••••••••••..•••••_ '...... Outward•• lens, weight..

Merchandise carried to and from Oanada in Seagoing Veuels.

T Outwards, tons, measure, decrease)_ ••••••• _..... •••••• •••••• ••••• •••••• Total Production of Ooal...... F~tal Consumption of Coal lre Insurance in Canada... •••••.
•••••• •••••• _ ••••••••• .••••• •••• •••••••••.• ' II II U II U U Oompanies.. ••••••••• ••••• British Oanadian United States " lC ••••••••• •••••.

••••••.

•••••.
..... ...... ••••••• ••••••••• , _ ' ' _.... II U II II u u II II II $ " " II (1873) 2'07 8.007,079 32,808,104 959,051 4,360,692 3,3r.2,881 18,lOO,()00 2,532 5,190,416 (1887) 6,264,86t (1887) 6,331,767 (1887) 12,21l ,16b (18f 7) 1'54 30,444,646 112,860,700 18,2~1,423 51 861,984 10,916,618 96,786,OOe 13,292 10,686,MPI 11,807,Mf, 16.367.9~7 24,581,047 2,101,009 2,216,312 l,898,6H) 4,284,637 (1876) 708,687 (1876) 126,876 (1876) 1,016,916 (1876) 2,218.956 623,392 714,B93 188,309,809 116,222,003 69,340,&:6 13,796,~90 4,623,606 .,674,297 2,683,006 G,699,933 1,063,780 247,283 1,820,760 2,107,470 2,449,793 5,226,967 633,623,697 423,070,624 164,165902 56,287,171 (1875) (1876) Tons.
(1876) (1876) T. reg.

- Tons, -'6:1 Decreue 251 266.

2'4 22,137,M6 80,06~,696 17,292,372 47,601.

292 7.663,737 78,686.000 9,770 5,496.092 5 ,C12, 731 10,036,230 12,369,8~9 2,519,497 2,3158,986 784,496 1,316,296 366,693 120,4071 803,835 1803 10891226 436 3871 106 891'lJ 16S!

101h 17!
101h 17!

119iD 10~ 41h BOiD 6Jh 95 '19 -111,48/1 1,8~6,401 4,tI2.074 44~,163,888 807,848,621 94,824.986 42490;281 Decrease 015 293 631 236y\ 267 16P~ 307h 12,981,S2b Hi,217,308 2,234,483 From this it will be seen that the discounts in charter people, and as regards the general indioations and the gene· In the f~ce of all banks show an increase since Confederation of243 per cent.

ral business prosperity of the-country.


The total production of coal shows an increase of 293 per this knitting together, in the face of this better acquaintance the total consumption of ooal shows an increase of and of consequent better appreciation, which has been 80 cent.

; 631 per cent.

; the total average of ire insurance at risk in powerful an agent in our progress, during the twenty-one Oanada, shows an increase of 263-h- per cent.
All these years of Confederation- in the fdce of all these evidences of goes ~ prove the immense development which has taken great material development, I think the statement ot my ht9n.
place In the country &8 regards ita industries, &8 regards friend was an eKtra.ordinary 8tatement-an untrue statement Ita monered institutions, as regards tbe savin~ of the -an unfortunate 8tawment and one which had far better ro- I must 74~whileontheotherhand,twenty.fiveyearsagotherewele a in 21 I a I an citizf'n, vastness resources, and which, 80 far hope indulgence of years, we ean be records, to which I took occasion to call attained her majority In concluding the Atate· am conCbrn- unobRervant to capital.
With respect and past have been prepared and full of peace, of plenty, as not believe that Canada, future prosperity.

and I COMllONS DEB1\.TES.

.

moi"ed unsaid, that from 1868 until to-day, we have made no union.
No man can feel that more intensely than I, but 1 81 P]1 forward in linking together the different Provinces, in beg leave to doubt whether the facts disclosed in our own the attenti'lD m:,king the ties of mutual respect and affection stronger be t ween the various parts, or in building up these elements of this House and the country some few months ago, such whlOh go to make a nation.
facts as that by the last census we po88ess persons natives ment which, by the kind this Honse of Ontario there were settled in the Maritime ProviDoos only I have been permitted to make Bay, has been listened to with snch kind attention by hon.
7,600 natives of the Maritime Provinces to be found in I be· Ontario alone and in Ib81 the number had been reduced to Il:entlemen on both sides, allow me to add that Heve Canada now, having of 7,200-1 beg leave to doubt if facts like these are altogether twenty·one years, has, as I saidat the openin~ of my indicative of that close and cordial and intimate union, record which can be regarded with just which I, as well as the hone the Minister of Finance, so remarks, a pride and admiration.
Lookin~ back upon her prngress much desire to Bee.

I agree entirely with the hon.
gentle filled with the man that the value of every fina£.cial statement depend8 to during the past in the untrodden future, a very great degree on the accuracy of the estimate which fullness of bnpe for her progreRloI of her confidt'nt the the Minister of Finance, for the time being, shall be able to in the fibre of her people, in the make of the expenses of the year to come, and I propoBe a intel~igence and commercial enterprif.le of her business men, and in the ~reat facilities little later on to give this House Bome very remarkable i11us for commerce, whi('h, thanks to the generous expenditure trations of the marvellous accuracy that has been attained of this people and the Government arA found in those during the last few years by the hone gentleman's predeces.
t will add that another most great lines of communication which permeate all parts of sors in that particular.
the country-resting- upon these and their certain influences valuable index of the value of a financial statement consists to-day, can look in the honesty with which the public accounts for years and effects, the accuracy with which to forwald the items properly ohargeable to income are charged to of continued ed, to the that arcount and not as eil izn, of thifol country ann of thf' ('ourRe of her past hi8tory, volume of trade, I am entirely in accord with the hon.

gentle.
gentle.

for her peace man thllt you must consider value as well as quantity.

and a~ a 10Vt'r of my country, wiAhful I Bllt the hon.

gentleman, not being as old fl member of the and pl"O!'perity.

for her best and !

'afest political status.

believe that we have have every rearo-on to be fond of ar:d to .

llullSu ..s .sulliO of Lho rest of UB, is not aware that I spent look with pride on Canada.

Whether we be French· tedious hours in endeavoring to teach the hon.
gentlemen men or Eng1i..hmen or Scotchmen or IriRhmen or Swedes beside him that elementary truth eleven years ago; but I or Icelanders or Mennonites, is preached to deaf ears, and could not convince those hon.

gen at w\Jrk, becoming more tlemen,(though the proof was clear and incontestable) of that attached to simple dementary fact, the truth of which the hone gentle.

truly Canadians our country, confident in its re!


'ourct:'s, and hopeful of itB man has now di8covered, that you must take value 88 well a8 future.

I advise him to that the House go into CJOmmittee of Supply, I beg to state extend the educational process, he has bagun, and try that although a f!rest many representations have been made to convince tbe hon.
gentleman on his l'ight, and the hone truth, of which I was to myself as Finance Mini8ter and to my colleague the gentleman on his So I agree with him that Minister ot Customfl, with reference to changes and reo not able to convince them.
adjustment" of the tarlff.-manyof wbich have had some it that merit in themselves and others of which seem to have had the large amount which is put to sinkil"g fnnr) may be to our Jairly reckoned as a matter ofoffe;et but when I bxpuunjed little merit, 80 far a~ commending themselves that doctrine in 1817·78, I was met by the colleagues of the attention for change or re.adjustment W1l8 concerned,- I have made the statement which I made to-day upon the basis hone gentleman with shouts of deritllOn; and again I urge of the present tariff arrangements, feeling certain that if upon the hon.
gentleman the expiency of instructing upon fuller consideration of some few points which yet his colleagues on the in that remain to be decided, any re-adjustment or change may elementary finance.

We all admit on the House, and we all a~ree, not merely take place, it will not be of a character and importance tu this and when we were in materially alter but change the basis to any large extent of what we may power, we put our principles it is hope to receive from the different revenues of the country.
most grossly unfair that a poor man should pay more in proportion to his means.

taxes than a rich man, Why, principle of our op· position to the hon.

gentleman's protective tariff.

Every specific duty which he lays on, pro tanto, is an injury and an injustice, and does inflict a heavier tax on the poor man than on the rich man.

When I look around the House, and see that probably my hon.

friend himself, probably my self and probably my hon.
friends around me are wearing garment8 which came into this country at a tax of 20 per cent., whereas our poorer neighbors have to pay 30, 40, 50 and even 60 per cent.

for their garments under the present tariff, I agree with the hon.

gentleman- that it is most grOtl~· Iy unfair that poor men should be compelled to pay twice and even three timea &8 much &8 rioh men pay, 88 they do under the present tarift'.

I agree again with the bon.


gen tleman that all over the world the rate of interest has falle~, immensely within the last few years, and also in the fact, which he did not alate so clearly, though no doubt a gen· tleman of his intelli~enoesaw it,that it is therefore thatto.dal Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.

In much that has been said, I am glad to say I agree with the hon.

Minister of Fi.
Minister of Fi.

nance j and as no doubt it will promote the harmony of this evening, that I should do so, I will first enumerate the points on which I agree with him, before it becomes my unplea pant duty to insinuate certain doubtli which exist in my mind as to the perfect accuracy of his statement in other respects.

First of all I agree entirely with the hon.

gentle.

man in saying that if you dwarf the aspirations of a young and growing people like ours, you are sure, as the hon.
gen· tleman has rightly said, to do it an infinite injury j and I the rider that you will do exceedingly append to that great !njury if you refuse to a young and rising people, the right, under proper conditions, to make its own treaties and to appoint its own negotiators.

I agree also with the hoa.


gentleman to the fullest extent that it would be most de8irable that we 8hould link together the various sister Provinces of this Confederation in the closest bonqs of In moving- that you do now leave the Chair and quantity into account in estimatin~ that.

right and on lJ1e left of the statement which I have made or every day we in heart are and flentiment.
side of in principle, the welding progress in discu8sing deficits, is the fundamental into pra0tice; that is quite fair, in practice, left, of that to consider principle that and lIr.

F06:t'El\.

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