Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697707055777.pdf (Botswana)
EMERGENCY MEETING (FINANCIAL ACTION TASK FORCE (FATF) BILLS) FRIDAY 28 JANUARY 2022 MIXED VERSION HANSARD NO: 204 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon.

Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP.

DEPUTY SPEAKER Hon.

P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP.

(Tonota) Clerk of the National Assembly Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly Acting Learned Parliamentary Counsel Assistant Clerk (E) His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP.

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP.


(Boteti West) CABINET - President - Vice President - Ms B. N. Dithapo - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe - Ms K. Kokoro - Mr R. Josiah Hon.

K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP.

(Molepolole South) - Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Administration Hon.

K. T. Mmusi, MP.

(Gabane-Mmankgodi) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon.

Dr L. Kwape, MP.

(Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon.

K. K. Autlwetse, MP.


(Specially Elected) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon.

K. S. Gare, MP.

(Moshupa-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Hon.

P. K. Kereng, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation and Tourism Hon.

Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP.

(Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon.

T.M.

Segokgo, MP.

(Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon.

K. Mzwinila, MP.
K. Mzwinila, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Hon.

T. M. Rakgare, MP.

(Mogoditshane) - Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development Hon.

A. M. Mokgethi, MP.

(Gaborone Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon.

P. O. Serame, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon.

F. M. M. Molao, MP.

(Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Hon.

Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP.


(Tati East) Hon.

L. M. Moagi, MP.

(Ramotswa) - Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology - Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Energy Security Hon.

M. Kgafela, MP.

(Mochudi West) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Hon.

M. R. Shamukuni, MP.

(Chobe) - Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Development Hon.

E. M. Molale, MP.

(Goodhope-Mabule) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development Hon.
D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP.

(Gaborone South) - Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Administration Hon.

S. N. Modukanele, MP.

(Lerala -Maunatlala) Hon.

T. Monnakgotla, MP.

(Kgalagadi North) Hon.

M. M. Pule, MP.

(Mochudi East) Hon.

M. S. Molebatsi, MP.


(Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development - Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development - Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development - Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Security Hon.

S. Lelatisitswe, MP.

(Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness Hon.

N. W. T. Makwinja, MP.

(Lentsweletau-Mmopane) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education Hon.

B. Manake, MP.
B. Manake, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Hon.

H. B. Billy, MP.

(Francistown East) Hon.

A. Lesaso, MP.

(Shoshong) - Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES Names Constituency Hon.

L. Kablay, MP.

(Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party) Hon.

Dr U. Dow, MP.

Hon.


P. Majaga, MP.

Hon.

M. Balopi, MP.

Hon.

J. S. Brooks, MP.

Hon.

C. Greeff, MP.

Hon.

T. Letsholo, MP.

Hon.

T. F. Leuwe, MP.

Hon.

T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP.

Hon.

Dr T. Matsheka, MP.

Hon.

S. N. Moabi, MP.

Hon.

P. K. Motaosane, MP.

Hon.

O. Regoeng, MP.

Hon.

J. L. Thiite, MP.


Specially Elected Nata-Gweta Gaborone North Kgalagadi South Gaborone Bonnington South Kanye North Takatokwane Gaborone Central Lobatse Tati West Thamaga-Kumakwane Molepolole North Ghanzi North OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon.

D. Saleshando, MP.

(Leader of the Opposition) Hon.

M. G. J. Motsamai, MP.


(Opposition Whip) Maun West Ghanzi South Selebi Phikwe West Mahalapye East Sefhare-Ramokgonami Ngami Okavango Maun East Bobonong Selebi Phikwe East Palapye Nkange Mahalapye West Francistown West Hon.

D. L. Keorapetse, MP.

Hon.

Y. Boko, MP.

Hon.

Dr K. Gobotswang, MP.

Hon.

C. K. Hikuama, MP.

Hon.

K. K. Kapinga, MP Hon.

G. Kekgonegile, MP.

Hon.

T. B. Lucas, MP.

Hon.

K. Nkawana, MP.

Hon.

O. Ramogapi, MP.

Hon.

Dr N. Tshabang, MP.

Hon.

D. Tshere, MP.

Hon.


M. I. Moswaane, MP.

Hon.

T. S. Khama, MP.

Hon.

L. Lesedi, MP.

Hon.

B. Mathoothe, MP.

Hon.

M. Reatile, MP.

(Botswana Patriotic Front) Serowe West Serowe South Serowe North Jwaneng-Mabutsane Hon.

W. B. Mmolotsi, MP.
W. B. Mmolotsi, MP.

Francistown South (Alliance for Progressives) TABLE OF CONTENTS EMERGENCY MEETING (FINANCIAL ACTION TASK FORCE (FATF) BILLS) FRIDAY 28 JANUARY, 2022 CONTENTS PAGE (S) SPEAKER’S REMARKS..........................................................................................................................................1 GOVERNMENT BILLS Counter Terrorism (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.
40 of 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)..................................................................................................................1-23 Criminal Procedure and Evidence (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.

41 of 2021) Second Reading...............................................................................................................................................24-25 Extradition (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.
42 of 2021) Second Reading...............................................................................................................................................26-28 Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.

43 of 2021) Second Reading....................................................................................................................................................29 Biological and Toxin Weapons (Prohibition) (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.
44 of 2021) Second Reading...............................................................................................................................................30-33 Friday 28th January, 2022 THE ASSEMBLY met at 9:00 a.m. (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) P R A Y E R S * * * * SPEAKER’S REMARKS MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Honourable Members, can we try to switch on our videos so that we show that we have a quorum.

…Silence… MR SPEAKER: Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, good morning.


We will start our business of today with continuation of the Second Reading on Counter Terrorism.

COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR SPEAKER: Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, the debate is resuming.

When the House adjourned yesterday, Honourable Tshere was on the floor and he was left with 13 minutes 3 seconds.

MR TSHERE (MAHALAPYE WEST): Thank you very much Honourable Speaker.
Ke bo ke le dumedise, ke dumedise le Batswana kwa gae.

Maabane fa ke ema tota re ne re setse re lapile jaanong ke leka go tlhalosa gore terrorism go tewa eng, gore re tle re kgone go bua ka how to counter it sentle.

Jaanong ke ne ke e fa dikai jalo le gore terrorism ke eng.

Ke ne ke tlhalosa thatathata gore, golo mo terrorism to counter it, it is anchored mo policy, kana go beile thata mo goreng wena o batla go tsaya tshwetso efe.
A o batla gore o lwantshe dirukutlhi o sa buisane le tsone kana o lwantshe mme gape o buisana le bone.

Ke gone fa ke neng ke wela teng.

Ke lemoga Honourable Healy maabane o letse a nkgakolola ka example e ke neng ke e fa ka Boko Haram.

Ee, I was confusing it with other militia and terrorists groups jaaka bo Al Shabaab, Mujahideen and others.

However the principle e ntse e tshwana fela Mr Speaker.
Ke yone gore jaaka ke ne ke e fa sekai sa ga Honourable Molale a na le polase e tonatona fa tlase ga tshimo ya me ke sa e agelela ke le mohumanegi, ke palelwa ke go e agelela, a bo e re fa a agelela a bo a agelela yotlhe fela.

Fa ke re ke a bua a bo a sa ntheetse.

Fa ke tsaya lentswe ke mo tika ke terrorism.

Akere ene o motona jaanong, o economically wealthy, but fa ene a tsaya tlhobolo a mphula ka gore ke ne ke mo tika ka lentswe it is protection, national security and self defence.
It is no longer terrorism.

Ke re re e tlhaloganye jalo and I apologise for that example ya Boko Haram.

Ke batla go fa sekai se sengwe sa maloba fa re ya kwa Mozambique.

Example e nngwe ke ya maloba re ya kwa Mozambique fa Tona Rre Mmusi a tlile mo Palamenteng a tla go lekodisa Mapalamente ka masole a rona a a ileng kwa Mozambique, Modimo o nne le bone.
Honourable Kapinga, I think it is Honourable Kapinga because of his wisdom and his diplomatic credentials, o ne a botsa gore, a jaaka re lwa kwa Mozambique, which we should to support our Southern African Development Community (SADC) brothers, a go na le bangwe ba ba buisanang ka fa thoko le terrorists tse gore re kgone go bona gore can we form a solution kana ra dumalana ka tsela nngwe?

Ga ke a ka ka utlwa karabo gone foo e tswa e le phepha gore go ntse jang.
Karabo eo ke yone e ke e buang gone fa gore, it is based mo goreng jaanong re akanya jang ka terrorist.

Gape le gakologelwe African National Congress (ANC) in South Africa it was declared a terrorist organisation together with all these liberation struggle movements in Southern Africa.

They were all declared terrorists at one point, one way or another, by the previous apartheid regime or the colonial masters, because of their struggle.
You see there was a struggle there and re le Botswana re ne re ba fa boroko, re ba amogela ka tsela e e ntseng jalo.

E tshwanetse gore fa re bua dilo tse re di bue re itse gore re tsamaya fa kae.

I believe ke Setswana, “ntwakgolo ke ya molomo.” That is why Batswana typically as much as we shall and should protect our territorial integrity and our sovereignty, as much as we have to do that, we also have to seek to reach out to those who want to harm us… (Inaudible)… common peace and funding.
MR MOTSAMAI: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker.

Ke a go leboga.

Ke tsena fa kgannyeng ya gore re le Batswana totatota re ne re tlhomogela balwela kgololesego ba Africa pelo ka go ba fa maroko.

Ke re, o se ka wa lebala go gatelela thatathata gore totatota batho ba ba neng ba tlhomogela batho bao pele e ne e le ba diphathi tsa kganetso, e ne e le ba Botswana National Front (BNF) le ba Botswana People’s Party (BPP).
MaBotswana Democratic Party (BDP) were saying, re 1 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) ja le mathorolosi, ka nako eo gone gotwe mathorolosi, re ja le manaba, le batho ba ba tlaa tlhakatlhakanyang lefatshe.

Gompieno ke bone ba sianetseng botsalano le bone.

Thank you very much.

MR TSHERE: Mr Speaker, let me give Honourable Molebatsi o tloga a ntlhowa.
ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MR MOLEBATSI): Mma a tswelele.

MR TSHERE: Ke ne ke tlhalosa fela gone moo.

Ke itumela thata Honourable Motsamai gore o bo o bua jalo gore go tlhaloganyesege dilo tse, ka gore Umbrella for Democratic Change, lekgotla le ke ikamantseng le lone, ga le mo goreng le tseye Puso ka go lwa kana ka eng.

Nnyaa, re democratic, re ya go tsaya Puso ka tlhopho.

Ka jalo ke puo e re e buang ka UDC.

Re ya go dirisa tlhopho go tsaya Puso.


Jaanong tlhopho ya teng ke sephiri.

Moono wa rona ke sephiri ka tsela e e ntseng jalo.

Ke ne ke bua gape gore, actually terrorism so that you counter it properly ke gore it can be actual or perceived and perceived ke yone e e worse ka gore…jaaka ke ne ke e fa sekai sa BDP e le gore fa gongwe o tlaa iphitlhela o rwele kepese kana sekipara se kwadilwe SISI, ba bangwe bone ba ba go bonang ba mafatshe a mangwe kante bone ba bona Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS).
Ba bona e le gore you are advertising ISIS.

Therefore, e nna o kare mmampodi ga a ipone se se mo tlhogong.

E nna o kare ga le bone gore golo moo ke molato, e bile le ikamanya le maphata a borukutlhi.

E bo e nna o kare you are harbouring them and party ya lona harbours batho ba go nna jalo.
Ka gore fa o lebelela jaanong o bona le kwa dikoloing di tswang teng, o sa itse gore di tswa kae, mme di tshwana le tsa bone, so e nna dilonyana tse e leng gore… ke le bolelela dilo tse gore e re fa re dira dilo re nne re ikgakologelwe.

Mme fela Mr Speaker, e ke neng ke e tsholeleditse letsogo gore ke tle ke e tlhaloganye ke ya maabane fa re bua le Honourable Mmusi ka penalties mme fa re bua ka melao e re e fetisang e le penalties gore di amana jang; madi le go ya kwa toronkong go amana jang.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure, Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Procedure, Vice President (VP).

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O a bo a simolola ka procedures; heish!

MR SPEAKER: Tla re utlwe, ga a simolole.

LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Procedure.

Le a bo le simolola ka go tswa mo tseleng.

Fa le tswa mo tseleng fela re bitsa procedure, there is no way we can leave you to do what pleases you mme se le kgatlhanong le tsamaiso.

Mr Speaker, kgang e ya ga Mopalamente wa Mahalapye West, o e buile maabane.
Re ne ra ithaya ra re go raya gore o ne a feta fela a tshameka (joking) jaanong re bona gore o gateletse thata mo kgannyeng ya gore dikepese tse kana sepe se se kwadilweng “Sis-Boy” go raya gore ke ISIS.

Ke batla gore kgang e Mr Speaker, re e tseye ka tlhoafalo ka gore terrorists tse re buang ka tsone tse, Palamente e is global.

Ga e felele fela fa jaaka mongwe a tsaya gore e felela mo maotong a gagwe; it is global.
Batho ba ba utlwang dikgang tsone tse tse gotweng batho ba apara dikipara tsa bo ISIS kwano, ga ba ka ke ba re tsaya sentle.

Fa o le Mopalamente o le a leader, o bo o se ka ke wa itse dilo tse di borai tse di ka gogelang lefatshe la gago mo tlhaelong, o bo o tsaya fela gore o sotla mongwe kana or you are joking, it is a very dangerous joke Mr Speaker.

Ke kopa gore a boele mafoko a gore sepe sekipara se ne se kwadilwe ISIS kwano se balelwa kwa morago jaaka a bua.
Ke dilo tse di seyong, tse di duleng mo tseleng gotlhelele.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le ne le apara jalo.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga o a utlwa sentle.

O ne o sa reetsa.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Tshere.

MR TSOGWANE: Ga gona se o se buang wena, ga ke itse gore o tswa kwa kae ka gore o ntse o seyo mo Palamenteng go na le kagiso.

MR SPEAKER: Bua le Honourable Tshere, ba bangwe ba go batla o na le nako, ba tlaa tla ka a bone.

Right now the person you should address is Honourable Tshere.
O a utlwa motho wa gaetsho, gatwe kgang e re iketlele go tloga re itlhaba ka thipa mo mpeng ka gore go na le ba bangwe ba ba re reeditseng, ga ba re rate kana ba tloga ba sa utlwe sentle ba re, “ehe!

Batswana ba ntse jaana,” re bo re fitlhela re sa itirela sentle.

I think that is the essence of what His Honour is saying.
MR TSHERE: Yes, I agree with Honourable VP, dikgang tse di masisi mme kana fa di diragala, ke go bolelela ka batho gore bone fa ba go lebeletse, e seng wena gore o ba bolelela gore ke ntse jaana.

Bone fa ba 2 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) go lebeletse ba bona o ntse jang?

Ba bona e re o apere jaana gotwe “SISI”; bone fa ba bala… ka seArabia go balwa o tswa kwa pele o ya kwa morago.

So, e nna ISIS.
So, e nna ISIS.

It looks like.

Le fa yo mongwe a sa bale a tlhoafetse a tsentse matlho, o bona ISIS fela.

So, ke dilo tse re tshwanetseng re di ele tlhoko.

Ke sone se ke lekang go se gakolola Mr Speaker ka gore ke a kgatlhega gore ga ke batle batho ba re leba jalo.

Ke sone se ke lekang go digela ka sone ka terrorism.

Mr Speaker, ke leboga thata.

Ke ne ke re ke wela mo go e ya principle ya… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation Honourable Tshere.

MR TSHERE: Oh, yes.

Thank you comrade.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ka tsena Mr Speaker?

MR SPEAKER: Yes, Honourable Kekgonegile.

MR KEKGONEGILE: Tanki.

Honourable Tshere, kana kgang e o e buang ya gore policy ya rona e ntse jang, re leba batho ba ka tsela e e ntseng jang e bile thatathata o supa gore terrorists go na le ba ba moderate or extreme; Mujahideen is moderate, bo Taliban in the ranks are extreme.
Gone mme fa o bua ka issue ya ISIS le SISI mme e bile gape o leba se se diragalang mo lefatsheng la rona gore the economy ya rona e mo go bomang, e mo letsong lefe, terrorists gantsinyana di amana le mmala ofe kana letso lefe, tumelo efe, ke bomang ba ba tshwereng economy ya rona, a mme ga se gore go dira jalo ke gone mo go dirileng influx e ntsi e e kanakana e?

Kana gompieno fa o tsena kwa retail shops tsa Makula, managers tsotlhe ke Makula.

Fa o ya kwa dikoleng tsa Makula, bagokgo botlhe ke Makula.
A golo mo ga se gone mo go dirileng gore rona ka re ne re lela gore money laundering e tla ka ditsela tse re buang ka tsone, mme o fitlhela e le gore blacklisting e e tlile ka gore batho ba kwadile bo SISI ka tsela e e ntseng jalo?

E tlile ka gore economy ya rona has been taken over by bone batho ba ba ba tlisitsweng ke Domkrag ka bokete jo bo feteletseng.

Gongwe tota re supa Batswana ka monwana fela mme Domkrag e ka bo e itshupa ka monwana.

Tanki Mr Speaker.
Tanki Mr Speaker.

MR TSHERE: Thank you very much honourable through the Speaker.

Ke yone kgang e ke e buang.

Kana ke bua jaana gore re itebelele sentle, e re fa re dira dilo re lebelele dilo tse ka leitlho la batho ba ba tswang kwa ntle.

Ba le lebile le le Botswana gore re dira dilo jang.

Ke gone mo ke neng ke leka go go tlhalosa gore re go ele tlhoko.

Re ele dilo tseo tlhoko thata ka gore it could be perceived, not actual.
Ga re a tsaya ditlhobolo bombing batho, Botswana ga e bonale e dira suicide bombing, nnyaa mme go lebega o kare.

Gone moo ke gone mo go ka tlisang blacklisting jaaka Honourable Kekgonegile a bua.

Go ka tlisa gore batho ba re shime to deal le rona ka gore ba tsaya gore re amana le makgotla ao.

Ke ne ke wela Mr Speaker ka kgang ya penalties, dingwaga tse motho a di yang kwa toronkong le madi jaaka re bona gore Molao-kakanyetso o wa Counter Terrorism tota o oketsa madi by large.
O oketsa dikatlholo to bo P10 million to life imprisonment.

Re ne re ntse re botsa le Honourable Kekgonegile gore naare golo mo go diragala jang?

What is the principle behind dingwaga le toronko?


Jaanong maabane go letse go kile ga tsoga tlhatlharuanenyana go se kae Mr Speaker o seyo foo, e le gore ke tsaya gore Honourable Mmusi ga a nkarabe, ga a arabe batlhophi ba Mahalapye ka gore ba nthomile gore ke botse dipotso tse le fa a ka akanya gore ke tsa bomatla mme a di arabe ka gore di tswa kwa bathong ba Mahalapye West.
Gore go amana jang, dingwaga tsa toronko le madi mme o ne a ntlhalosetsa kwa bothokong a nteletsa a mpolelela gore, “fa re baya molao jaana, ga se gore go na le kamano epe.” Ga se gore go na le formula epe Honourable Kekgonegile.

Ke gore fela re baya number, re pharega numbers, prison terms gone foo ka tsela yone eo mme re tlogelela boikarabelo jo bontsi ba makgotla a ditsheko; the judicial officer, Mmakasetarata kana Judge.
Ene o tlaa tla a sekaseka gore mo dikgannyeng tsone tse ka molato o beilwe jaana, o ka atlhola bokae and ke tsaya gore ke tlhaloso fela e e siameng e e ka bong e isitswe kwa bathong, ba tlhaloganya gore nnyaa, mme dilo tse di beilwe mo Boatlhoding ka gore rona… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.
MR TSHERE: Ke ne ke tlhaloganya jalo e bile ke amogela ka tlhaloso eo, jaanong ke ipotsa gore tota re ne re tsosetsang… e bile Honourable Deputy Speaker a bo a ntshupa ka monwana gore Palamente ga e tsamaisiwe jalo… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Jeso yo o bonolo; clarification.

MR TSHERE: Yes, I accept clarification honourable.

Thank you.

MR MOATLHODI: Through your good self Mr Speaker.

3 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR SPEAKER: Yes, sir.

MR MOATLHODI: O letse o rumola batlotlegi Mapalamente ke bo ke go sireletsa, wa re ke go supile ka monwana?

Tota se ke se kopelang clarification ke gore fa Motlotlegi Rraetsho Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente a mpeile foo, o a bo a le teng.

So, tlogela go mo nyatsa.

Kopa maitshwarelo.

MR TSHERE: Thata, ke kopa maitshwarelo Botate.

Nnyaa, o a bo a le teng ka gore o a bo o le teng.


Ke yone e ke neng ke batla go wela ka yone gore nnyaa, mme numbers tse re a utlwa.

Re ka tla ra tokafatsa kwa pele.

Re itse Judges tsa rona le bo Mmakaseterata ba rona and that is why o bona fa gongwe re kgona go kwala fa.

Honourable Mmusi o ne a ntlhalosetsa gore re kgona go kwala fa re re motho a tsamaye 30 years fa a bolaile motho mme e bo e re fa Judge kana Mmakaseterata a lebelela ene a bo a mo fa five years, eight years jalojalo.
Ke selo se e leng gore se a amogelesega ka gore Judiciary ke karolo ya tsamaiso ya puso ya batho ka batho jaanong e neetswe yone karolo yone e ya gore re lebelele.

Mo ke numbers fela Honourable Kekgonegile to guide fela gore honourable a tlise a kwadile sengwe.

Ka mafoko a le kalo, ke support Molao-kakanyetso o Mr Speaker.

Ga ke rate dilo tse tsa terrorism.

Ke selo se se botlhoko thata.


Mme jaaka ke bua, as much we should and shall protect our territorial integrity and sovereignty, we should as well seek to reach out to all those who would want to harm us to find peace and peace is what we should strive for.

I thank you very much Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Tshere.

MR NKAWANA (SELEBI PHIKWE EAST): Tla ke go leboge Mr Speaker.

Ke go leboge gape gore o bo o ntshupile mo ngwageng o mošha.
Ke dumedise batlotlegi botlhe ba Palamente e, ke dumedise setšhaba sa gaetsho mo Selebi Phikwe le Batswana ka kakaretso.

Mr Speaker, ke eletsa go akgela mo Bill e. Ke ka se ke ke nne moleele thata fa ke ka seke ke kgorelediwe ke clarifications.

Mr Speaker, Honourable Tshere o setse a supile gore go botlhokwa gore re tlhaloganye gore who is a terrorist, motho o nna terrorist fa go ne go rileng.

A ke rona fela re tsayang leina leo re bo re le manega mo go mongwe le mongwe, kgotsa e a bo e le mongongoregi?
Mr Speaker, ke eletsa gape go supa gore dikai di di ntsi tse re di itseng tse re di boneng; a motho e nna terrorist ka mmala, tumelo, letso, kana ka ape mabaka fela a a tlaabong a le teng mo society ya gagwe ka fa re tlaabong re mo leba ka teng.

Dilo tse Mr Speaker, go botlhokwa gore Puso e di lebelele, go itsa gore re se ka ra akanya gore terrorist is imported from other countries.

Terrorism ke golo mo go runyang ka mabaka a a tlaabong a le teng.
Sekai se se setseng se beilwe pele ke Honourable Tshere ke gore, fa re lebelela mafatshe a re bapileng le one, nako e ba neng ba lwela kgololesego ba le ka fa tlase ga kgatelelo, ba ne ba tsaya dibetsa ba re ba a ikgolola mo go ba ba ba gateletseng.

Fa re leba ka fa South Africa, re itse gore balwelakgololesego botlhe were declared and labelled terrorists.
Balwelakgololesego botlhe ba ba neng ba leka go ikgolola mo pusong ya basweu mo Zimbabwe ba ne ba bidiwa Magadanga terrorists, mme ba dirwa jalo ba bidiwa jalo ke babusi.

E ne e le local terrorism, home grown and bred terrorism that is not imported.

Fa re leba kwa Namibia, le gone re ne re bona batho ba ba gateletsweng ba ikgolola ba tsere dibetsa ba lwantsha Puso mme ba bitswa terrorists.

Se se raya eng Mr Speaker?


A rona re kile ra itshekatsheka gore ga re na fertile ground ya gore e re kamoso re bo re bona re na le batho ba ba lwang ba ikgolola ba ingamola, ba batla gore ba neelwe se ba sa se neelweng mme se neelwa ba bangwe.

A re kile ra lebelela gore marginalised communities a ga go na possibility ya gore ka letsatsi lengwe ba eme ka dinao ba batle gore ba tshwane le merafe yotlhe ya Botswana?

Se ke se re tshwanetseng gore re se ipotse.


Re tshwanetse ra ipotsa, ra baakanya dilo gore re se ka ra nna le bontlha bongwe jwa population ya Botswana ya batho ba e leng gore ba gateletswe ke manokonoko a gore ba kgaphelwa kwa thoko, ga ba neelwe tse di ba tshwanelang jaaka ba bangwe mo lefatsheng la Botswana.
Ngwana yo o kwa Gudigwa o eletsa gore e re ka nako nngwe a ipone a na le motlakase o o duelwang, go na le Choppies fa e le gore ke golo mo go national, go na le shops le mabentlele a a tshwanang le a kwa Bobonong le kwa Selebi Phikwe.

Dilo tse fa e le gore ga a di bone mme Puso e sa eme ka dinao to facilitate gore dilo tseo di nne teng koo, ba na le ngongorego.

Se se supa gore terrorist ke motho yo o nang le ngongorego.

MR SPEAKER: Sorry Honourable Nkawana, freeze the clock.
It is nothing to do with you, but the Honourable Member from Francistown West.

Honourable Moswaane, ga re kwa toropong, re mo Parliament, jaanong dira jaaka go tshwanetse fa o le mo Palamenteng.

4 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR NKAWANA: Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.
Kgang ya me ke ya gore a re lebeleleng ka leitlho le le ntšhotšho gore batho ba e leng gore ba ka tswa ka mabaka a re a itseng, re leke go fefosa gore le bone dingongorego tsa bone tse ba di ngongoregang mo Pusong ga di nne teng.

Fa e le gore ga go kgonege, the only option they may have ke gore gongwe ba tseye dibetsa ba re tlhasele, e le selo se se ka bong se sa siama.
E bile kana fa ba dira jalo, ba tlaa bonwa ke ba ditšhabatšhaba ba ba nang le keletso ya go ba thusa, re bo re ipotsa gore jaanong dibetsa tse di kanakana di tswa kae.

Fa re lebile lefatshe le le tshwanang le jaaka ba bangwe ba sa tswa go bua gore fa re leba kwa Mozambique, batho ba teng ga se gore ke diganana.

Ke a tle ke utlwe mo Radio Botswana (RB) gotwe batho ba ba ilweng ke tumelo kwa tlhogong.
Le gone moo fela Mr Speaker, ga go itumedise ba re nang le bone ba tumelo ya mofuta oo gore re bo re ba kaya gore ke batho ba ba ilweng ke tumelo mo tlhogong.

A re ipotseng gape gore, jaaka go letse go buiwa ka dikereke, a gore ga go na bontlha bongwe jwa Batswana ba e leng gore dikereke tsa bone di a kgethololwa di gateletswe e bile ga re eletse gore re ka di thusa, re di leba ka leitlho le le rileng.
Batho ba mofuta oo e le Batswana le bone ba ka nna ba ema ka dinao ba ikgolola mo Pusong, re bo re ba kaya re ba kwala maina re re these are terrorists.

Yes fa e le gore ba teng, tumelo ya mofuta oo e teng gongwe next door, go a diragala gore baagisanyi ba tumelo eo le bone ba ithusetse batho ba bone, e le batho ba bone ka tumelo.

MR MOATLHODI: Ke kopa tlhaloso.

Ke a go leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

Ke go leboga thata rraetsho Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Selebi Phikwe Botlhaba.
Ke ne ke re mafoko a o a buang kana a a tshosa e bile a a tlhaba tota.

Ke re ke go botse gore naare a golo mo Botswana mo ga o lemoge gore lefatshe la Botswana fela ka kakaretso re batho ba tumelo, re batho ba setho se se sa tshwaneng le sa ope fela throughout the continent of Africa, sengwe le sengwe sa rona re dumela mo puisanong pele?

E bile re na le puo e re e buang re leka go kganela bomaswe jo ka metlha yothe re re se o se buang mo lefatsheng o itse gore se kannwe le kwa legodimong.
Fa e le gore dilo tse o a di lemoga, Morena wa me yo ke mo ratang thata Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Selebi Phikwe Botlhaba, ke eng o eletsa gore re ka nna le dilo tse di sisimosang jaana, bo Pako ba tlaa tshela jang?

Ke yone kopo ya me Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

Go tsenya Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Selebi Phikwe mo… HONOURABLE MEMBER: O go jela nako!

MR MOATLHODI: A ko o iketle, hei, motho yo wa Sefhare yo, a ko o iketle, ke wena o tlhotlheletsang motho yo ntwa yo.
Ke yone kopo ya me Rraagwe Pako, Morena wa me.

O se ka wa reetsa yo o ratang ntwa yo, e bile le difeise ga a di itse le fa o mo lebeletse.

MR NKAWANA: Ke a go leboga Rra Nkamo.

Ke dumela gore fa ke ne ke bua, gongwe go na le sengwe se o se tlogetseng.

Ga se keletso ya me gore go ka nna jalo.

Kgang ya me Mr Speaker, ke gore keletso ya me ke gore dilo tse e re le fa re tla ka melao re di lebelele gore di se ka tsa nna teng.
Keletso ya me ga se gore go nne le tlhakatlhakano, ka re a Puso e lebelele dilo tse e di sekaseke e bone gore a ga di diragale, re di etelele pele go di kganela di ise di diragale.

Mr Speaker, ke ne ke re ke tsene mo ntlheng e nngwe ya botlhokwa, gore fa o ka lebelela terrorists ka bontsi kwa ba leng teng ka standard sa bone, e nna batho ba ba ka tswang ba lwela tumelo e ke sa tswang go bua ka yone.

Go na le ba e leng gore ba lwa jaana fa gongwe e le tlala, poverty.
A rona mo Botswana ga re na dikarolo dingwe tsa morafe wa rona ba e leng gore ba gateletswe ke khumanego mo e leng gore ga ba ka ke ka letsatsi lengwe ra bona ba eme ka dinao le bone ba batla go ja meamuso ya lefatshe?

Nte ke fete e ntse jalo ke re, re tshwanetse ra itse gore fa go leng tlala teng, recruitment ya the terrorists e gola ka pela ka banana le batho ba morafe oo, ba a bo ba bone mmereko ka ba a solofediwa.
Ba tlhobogile Puso ya bone ka gore jaanong ba bona mmereko gore if I have joined mokgatlho o wa terrorists, ke solofeditswe gore ke tlaa neelwa sengwe, ke tlaa duelwa.
Potso ya me e ke eletsang gore re e lebelele Honourable Serame le Honourable Mmusi ke gore re ka dira melao, mme fa e le gore ga re a lebelela gore ke eng se se ka dirang gore batho mo Botswana ba itlhoboge, ba felele ba dumalana kgotsa ba thusiwa ke batho ba tla go re senyetsa lefatshe la rona, e tshwanetse gore e nne rona re ikiteye ka thupana, re baakanye, re se ka ra tla ra baakanyediwa ka tlhobolo.

Ke yone kgang ya me e gore tlhobolo ga e ise e ko e baakanye sepe.
Re tshwanetse ra ema ka dinao ra ithuta go baakanya le go lebelela gore ke dintlha dife tse e leng gore fa re di baakantse, ga gona ope yo o ka iponang a tswa mo tumelong ya rona ya Setswana gore ntwa kgolo ke ya molomo.

Kana dilo tse ba di dira ka gore ba a bo ba lekile ba itlhobogile.

Dilo tse mongwe le mongwe o di dira ka gore fa o utlwa 5 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Honourable Gobotswang a ne a re le tswele kwa ntle le ye go kopana, o tsamaiwa ke boitlhobogo jwa gore fa le tlhaeletsana mo television, yo mongwe ga a na go utlwa sentle, gongwe o ka utlwa sentle ka kwa ntle.

Mr Speaker, kgang ya me ke yone e ya gore dilo di pedi, di tharo.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation.


MR NKAWANA: E e leng teng mo society eo, ke marginalisation e le yone e ka nnang ya tlisa tlhakatlhakano ya batho ba e leng gore ba marginalised ka mabaka a a farologaneng.

E ka nna minority groups, fa gongwe ba tlaabo ba sa lwele mpa, ba lwela teme ya bone, ba lwela gore rona re batla go bua Sebirwa le Sembukushu, a re letlelelweng re se bue.

Ba lwela gore re batla go nna le television le radio e e buang Sesarwa.
Ke tsone dilo tse re tshwanetseng ra simolola ka tsone ra di ipotsa, ya nna dipotso tse e leng gore Puso e e tlhwaafetse, e ka leka go di baakanya go ise go ye kgakala.

Bangwe bone ba kwa thoko ba ba nang le madi le dibetsa, ba nna ba le ready gore ba utlwe gore ke bomang ba ba tlhokang thuso.
Batho ba e leng gore ba dira ditlhobolo, tiro ya bone ke go di rekisa, ba nna ba le ready gore re ka bona market kwa kae, ke bafe ba ba eletsang gore re ka ba rekisetsa, whether ke mo go formal kgotsa go le informal.

Ke gone fa terrorism e leng gore e nna teng Mr Speaker.

Re tšhaba e e leng gore jaaka Honourable Deputy Speaker a sa tswa go bua, e rata kagiso mme gone mo should not be taken for granted.

We should not take this for granted gore mongwe le mongwe is happy e bile they are ready to listen.
Fa bana ba ntse ba tswa mo dikoleng ba sa bone ditiro, ba reng, kgantele this idle minds and energy ba ya go di dirisa mo ditirong tse di tshwanang le tsone tse tsa borukutlhi jwa terrorism.

Puso e tshwanetse ya ema ka dinao ya itlhaganelela go baakanya foo.

Ke ne ke rile ga ke na go nna moleele Mr Speaker, ke re ke tlaa nna mokhutshwane.
Liberation Organisation (PLO), le one gongwe ba a tsaya kwa Palastine gore ke dirukutlhi, le rona re bo re ya fela jalo le bone, go tlile go nna thata go ba kgotsofatsa re ntse re leka go baakanya melao.

Ke a lemoga gore le mo ditsamaisong tsa rona re tsamaya le bone.

Maloba ke utlwile seromamowa sa Botswana se simolotse se bua gore Omicron e bonwe mo Botswana lantlha, e rile kwa morago sa bua gore e bonwe lantlha kwa South Africa.
Ke gore o kgona go utlwa gore jaanong ba tla ba tsamaya kwa phefo e fokelang teng, mafatshe a mangwe ka fa ba buang ka teng.

Re tshwanetse gore re ikele tlhoko.

Ke a leboga Honourable Member.

MR NKAWANA: Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.

Ke a go leboga motlotlegi.

Kana dilo tse dingwe fa ke batla go digela kgang ya me ke gore kwa ntleng ga poverty le bo marginalisation, mongwe le mongwe o na le a desire to belong and being recognised gore o mang, o wa morafe ofe.
Re kgona go lwela gore gatwe ke Mokalaka yo o tswang kwa Mapoka, jaanong... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR NKAWANA: Dilo tse Mr Speaker, ke tse re tshwanetseng go di ela tlhoko.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR NKAWANA: Ke ne ke kopilwe ke Honourable Ramogapi moragonyana.

Through you Mr Speaker.

MR RAMOGAPI: Clarification.

Ke a leboga Mr Speaker, ke a leboga Honourable Nkawana.

Kana ntlha e re e buang e bagaetsho e botlhokwa thata e bile re tshwanetse gore re e tseye tsia.
Tota re leka gore molao o le fa re o dira, re sa batle terrorism e bile gape re dumalana le Molao-kakanyetso o wa counter-terrorism, gape re supe gore go na le pharologanyo mo golong mo go bitswang gotwe ke freedom fighter le a terrorist.

DR GOBOTSWANG: Elucidation.

Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.

Kgang e re ntseng re e bua le Honourable Tshere a e buile ke gone gore re tshwanetse go ikela tlhoko gore kgang e ya gore terrorism ke eng, terrorist ke motho wa mohuta mang?
Re se ka ra iphitlhela jaanong re ya le mafatshe a a tlaa tsamayang a bitsa mongwe le mongwe gore ke serukutlhi, a ilwe ke tumelo kwa tlhogong, gongwe go sa nna jalo.

Dikgang tse di tshwanang le tsa Western Sahara, tsa bo Polisario Front, kwa e leng gore gongwe ba America le mafatshe a mangwe ba tsaya gore ke dirukutlhi.
Makgotla a tshwana le bo Palestine Jaanong kgang e re e buang fela fa ke gore re dumalana le Bill e mme a re farologanyeng gore jaanong malatsi a gompieno freedom fighters di bitswa terrorists.

Golo mo ga go a siama fela ka gore mafatshe a a dirang jalo ka gore kana molao o ditso tsa one o tswa kwa America.

Bagaetsho, mo Africa go na le mafatshe a a santseng a lwela freedom e ba batlang go ipusa.
Sekai; fa nne e le gore ANC molao o o santse o le teng, nako e go raya gore e ka bo e le declared gore ke terrorist.

Fa e ne e le gore party ya ga Mugabe ya Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front (ZANU-PF) nako e e 6 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) neng e batla go ntsha Makgoa, e ka bo e le declared gore ke terrorists.
Jaanong a e re re ntse re baakanya jaana, re tle re baakanya le gore tota mme fa motho a lwela kgololesego, ga se terrorist.

Ke tsaya gore golo mo go botlhokwa gore re go itse, re bo re dumalane le gone ka gore e seng jalo jaanong mongwe le mongwe fela, le ba ba reng batho ba Modimo ga re busiwe sentle, go tsewa gotwe ke terrorists mme ga se maikaelelo a molao o. Ke a go leboga Honourable Nkawana.

MR NKAWANA: Ke a leboga Honourable Ramogapi.


Ke ne ke rile ke a digela; in summary ke gore Mr Speaker, a re direng gore re tseyeng batho ba rona tsia fa ba na le dingongorego.

A re direng gore fa go na le sepe se se fatlhang mo morafeng o o rileng, mo bathong ba ba rileng or any section of the society le population ya rona, re leke to address mathata a a ntseng jalo.
In closing Mr Speaker, ke ne ke re ke gakolole gore fa e le gore dikipara tse go ntseng go buiwa ka tsone le dikepese di a tshwenya, a di se ka tsa aparwa ka gore di ka se ke di balwe sentle ke baditšhaba.

Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MR MOLEBATSI): Ke a go leboga Mr Speaker, ke a go dumedisa mosong ono.

Mr Speaker, molao wa Counter- Terrorism Act jaaka re itse, ke o o saleng o dirilwe ka 2014.
Fela jaaka melao e mengwe, re patelesega gore gompieno re o sekaseke gore le rona re kgone gore re bo re tsamaelana le recommendations tsa Financial Action Task Force (FATF) kana Financial Intelligence Act (FIA).

Go tshwanetse gore go diragale jalo.

Gape ke gatelele gore kana mo Virtual Evaluation Report, le bone ba supile gaps mo molaong one o. Gongwe Motlotlegi Morwaeng fa o bona a tsile jaana ka one, ke gore re tswale gaps tseo.
Fela ke simolole ka gore gongwe ke leboge, e bile ga ke buelela bagarona, ke itse gore kwa kgaolong e ke e emetseng le Batswana fela ka kakaretso ka go bona mo dikgannyeng, social media, ba ntse ba le sebete se molangwana ka ditiro dingwe tse di dirwang ke Directorate of Intelligence and Security (DIS) segolobogolo fa e tlhotlhomisa borukutlhi.

Batho ba ipotsa gore a DIS tiro ya yone ke go isa intelligence gore go tlhotlhomisiwe kana ke yone e tlhotlhomisang.

Go na le ketsaetsego.


Sa ntlha mo amendments tse di dirwang, go tlhamaletse.

Amendment ya ntlha e supa definition of investigating officer.

E papametse, e supa gore investigation e tlaa dirwa ke ba Botswana Police Service (BPS) ka gore ka Police Act ya bone, ke bone ba ba tshwanetseng ba tlhotlhomise.

Gone mo go tlaa tlhamalatsa dipotso tse re ntseng re di botswa.

Batho ba le sebete se molangwana.

Molao o, o a tlhamalatsa.

Ke kopa go nopola Mr Speaker gore ke papamale batho ba nkutlwe.
MR SPEAKER: Please do.

MR MOLEBATSI: I quote “by amending the definition of investigating officers so that only officers of BPS will be mandated to investigate crimes in accordance with the Police Act while the officers of the DIS and the Botswana Defence Force (BDF) will gather intelligence.” Dipotso tse di kanakana tse re ntseng re di botswa, go raya gore di tlaa ema gone foo jaaka o tlhalositse.

E nngwe Mr Speaker ke e e tlhalosang lefoko ‘proliferation’ gore le … HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.
MR MOLEBATSI: Go bua mang?

Go botsa mang?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke Honourable Mmolotsi.

MR MOLEBATSI: Nnyaa, le gana go re neela le lona gakere.

Tshere o ntse a gana go nneela.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, nna ke a go neela.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Go riana o ne o ngadile?

Motho yo o tshwanetse a bo a rata ntwa yo.

Go riana o ngadile Honourable Molebatsi?

MR MOLEBATSI: Ke ngadile.

Tsena ka bofefo, ke batla go fetsa ka bofefo.

Ke a mo neela Mr Speaker.

MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of clarification.


Thank you very much.

Honourable Molebatsi, ka bofefo fela, ke a utlwa gore o sa tswa go nopola molao.

Ke go botse gore a mme o a itse gore DIS ga e na sepe le gore molao o kwadilwe o reng?

A o a itse gore DIS e kgona go gana ditshwetso tsa lekgotlatshekelo?

Fa e le gore go ntse jalo, o bona mosola e le eng gore molao o o bo o rialo mme DIS e dira ka fa e batlang ka teng?

MR MOLEBATSI: Ke a leboga Honourable Mmolotsi.


Boammaaruri ke gore ga go na ope yo o kwa godimo ga molao.

Fa e le gore DIS ga e dire sepe ka fa molaong, se o ka se dirang ke gore o e sekise.

That is the long and short of it.

E ise kwa makgotlatshekelong.

7 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Lefoko la ‘proliferation’ le tsenye offences tse di tshwanang le financing proliferation of nuclear biological and chemical weapons.

Go botlhokwa thata, go ka re ama le rona.

Re na le uranium mo lefatsheng la rona kwa mafelong a a tshwanang le Serule.

Gongwe le rona re tloga re nna le badiri ba nuclear golo gongwe.

Re tshwanetse re tlhaloganye go sa le gompieno gore go dira dibetsa ka uranium, e bo e felela e le nuclear, e ka nna molato ka fa molaong.
Re ele tlhoko gore go tsamaelana le melato e. Ke itumelele thata gore the Act gape establishes the Counter Terrorism Analysis and Fusion Agency.

Ke rata go gatelela thata mo go the Fusion Agency, ga ke itse gore a Fusion Agency e ntšha mo molaong o. Ke selo se se botlhokwa thata.

The Fusion Agencies kana the Fusion Centres… HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of correction.

Ke go go baakanyetsa fela gore e teng mo molaong o o teng gompieno wa Counter Terrorism.
Bill fa e tswelela, e tsenya the penalties and fines tse di tiileng tota, tse di kwa godimo.

Se le sone bagaetsho re se leboge.

Ntlha e e botlhokwatlhokwa e ke e ratileng thata ke Part IV.

HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR TSOGWANE): On a point of elucidation.

Ke a leboga Minister.

Ke re gongwe without getting into the details, re tlhaloganye gore gone ee jaaka Minister a bua dintlha di pedi; go na le investigation le gathering information.
But nevertheless, the devil is in the detail because when you gather information, there are means and ways of gathering information.

Sometimes those can confuse as investigating.

So, we must understand gore go ya go diragala gore DIS e ye go go botsolosa with the intention of gathering information.

Fa re sa itse gore gathering information e e dirwa jang, then that is where we have a problem because we will continue to blame the DIS when they are supposed to be gathering information.
So, the devil is in the detail.

The two might be different but they overlap because fa o gather information, it is a means of investigation.

Thank you.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O raya fela ka gore ga e ka ke ya go tshwara wena.

MR TSOGWANE: Ka goreng e sa ntshware?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga ke itse.

MR MOLEBATSI: Ke a leboga.

Go botlhokwa gore re tlhalose dilo tse.

O tlhalositse sentle Your Honour the Vice President.
Ke tlhalose gape gore tota fa o ntse o ela kwa pele, o tlaa bona gore ga se gore gotlhelele DIS ga e tlhotlhomise.

Fa o tla kwa pele, go supa gore the Counter Terrorism Act and Intelligence Security Services Act mandate DIS to investigate the financing of terrorism.

Ga se gore e dule gotlhelele mo go tlhotlhomiseng.

Molao o a e letlelela.

The mandate wa bone ke go tlhotlhomisa terrorism ka gore ka bo yone, e kaiwa e le a national security issue.

Ga se gore e dule gotlhelele.


MR MOLEBATSI: Fusion Agencies?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ee rra, e teng.

MR MOLEBATSI: Ke a leboga rra.

Ke ne ke re e botlhokwa thata.

The Fusion Centres kwa mafatsheng a mangwe kwa di berekang sentle teng, ke tsone a way of reporting terrorism or reporting dilo tse di belaetsang.

It is a way of getting intelligence gathering closer to the people.

Kwa America the Fusion Centres di 80 across the country gore batho ba phuthologe ba amane le intelligence gathering.
Ga ke itse gore Batswana ba amana go le kae le DIS gompieno mo e reng fa ba bona sengwe, ba bo ba re sengwe ke sele se a re belaetsa, ba bo ba ya kwa diofising tsa DIS.

Fusion Centres di direlwa gone moo gore e nne kamano ya gore batho ba tseye boikarabelo jwa security sa bone, ba phuthologe, ba ye kwa Fusion Centres.

Fusion Centres or Fusion Agencies ga di tlhotlhomise, they just gather information and then take the information probably to the rightful state agencies tse di ka tlhotlhomisang.
Mma ke go neele sekai ke se; fa Fusion Agencies di ka bo di ne di le teng ka nako ya terror attack ya South African National Defence Force (SANDF) mo Gaborone ka di 14 tsa ga June, 1985 e go bolailweng batho ba le 12, the build-up of that attack Batswana ba e bone ba le bantsi.

They did not know where to report.

Batswana did not know gore o report o reng.

They did not know gore golo mo go raya eng.

The good example ke batho ba Radio Botswana.


There was a group of people ba Radio Botswana ba ba neng ba ya kwa South Africa ba ya go reka dilo tse ba di dirisang.

Fa ba tswa gone kwa, ba fitlhetse fa Zeerust mo go sa tlwaelesegang.

Ka ba tlhola ba feta gone foo, ba fitlhela e le gore go na le build-up ya military hardware e ntsi e e neng e bewa gone koo.
I even read the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) ba supa gore indeed the build-up was done the day before, go bua…(Inaudible)...They put in 50 tanks, 8 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) helicopters, fa o feta ka Zeerust o cross border, o bo o bona gone fa border go bewa dilo tseo, fa go ne go na le these Fusion Centres, o ka bo o rile o tsena kwano, mme yo ka e bile o kile a botswa le mo RB, o ka bo a rile ke bona sengwe se se belaetsang.

So that Fusion Agency is very important fa e dirisiwa sentle, a intelligence e ye kwa bathong through those Fusion Centres.
A similar attack e e neng ya nna kwa Francistown wa Mopane, le gone ga se gore batho ga ba a bona the build-up to that.

Ba club which was bombed at Francistown, those South African terrorists were seen at the hotels, batho ba bona fela gore gompieno go na le batho ba e leng gore…mme fa go na le Fusion Centres re ka thusa gore le rona setšhaba se tseye boikarabelo… MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Clarification.
Honourable Molemole, ke ntse ke utlwa bakaulengwe ba a fa many different examples ba …(Interruptions)… that can lead to terrorism kana other acts of terrorism.

Ke ne ke batla go tlhaloganya gore kgang e ya misinformation and propaganda…(Interruptions)… is it not also a form of terrorism?
Gongwe o ka tsaya sekai, jaaka e rile bolwetse jwa Corona bo simolola, bangwe even amongst us like Doctor Tshabang, ba kgona go raya batho ba re ga go na bolwetse jwa Corona, a golo moo ga se a form of terrorism go ya ka wena mokaulengwe?

MR MOLEBATSI: Tota gone ga ke moitseanape wa terrorism, kana e ne e le botšhekwane, jo motho o ka bo atlholelwang to mislead setšhaba.

Botšhekwane jone jo ke dumela gore e ka nna terrorism.
Fa ke utlwa Honourable Kapinga a bua gore kana tota dilo tse go ka bo go sa isiwe kwa DIS, gongwe go isiwa kwa lephateng gongwe le tshwana la ga Rre Mmusi, fa ke ne ke mo tshwara sentle, o ne a bua sentle.
Fela ke ne ke re le kwa mafatsheng a mangwe le fa go na le Fusion Agencies, joint terrorism taskforces, kwa pheletsong mme gone ke fe sekai, di felela di isitse kwa an agency e tshwana le DIS e le yone e coordinate gore go nne le information processing e e seamless, e kgona go nna le inter connectedness ya tsone tsotlhe, but facilitated by agency ya teng.
Ke ne ke e fa sekai fela, kwa America it is coordinated by Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), mme ga ke bone go le phoso gore DIS e ka coordinate ditiro tse.

Fela fa gongwe kana re tlaabo re belaela se DIS e se dirang gompieno gongwe re re ga e tsamaisiwe sentle, a bo e le gore jaanong re tlaa kganela le dilo tse ka tsamaiso di tshwanetseng go ka dirwa ke DIS re tshaba go di isa teng.

A re se ka ra tshaba dilo tseo ka gore ra re re ipelaetsa gore gongwe DIS ga e bereke sentle kana ga e reng.
Let us not throw the baby with the water, tse dingwe tse go ka baakanngwa.

Fela Tona Morwaeng ka fa o beileng molao o sentle, o tsamaelana le se mafatshefatshe a ntseng a se dira, ke tiro e ntle thata.

Mma ke feleletse ka go gatelela gore ke rata the Fusion Agency thata, ke rata re bone Fusion Centres be established fa e le gore di ka nna teng.
Ga ke itse gongwe di teng, e rile fa ke simolola tiro ya me ya boPalamente, le fa re ise re kopane physically, ke ne ka nna le motho a nteletsa a re, ke a go ikitsise ke nna yo motona mo kgaolong e mo DIS.

Gongwe e teng Fusion Centre ga ke e itse, mme fa e le teng, e batla gore Batswana ba e itse ba nne teng thata le gore we should demystify DIS, e se ka ya nna selo se se kgakala le batho.

E itsiwe, Batswana ba kgone go thusiwa ka information.
Ka a le kalo Mr Speaker, ke ema nokeng molao o ka pelo ya me yotlhe, ke kopa bakaulengwe le bone gore re o fetise, ke molao o o re siametseng thata.

Ke a leboga.

MR MATHOOTHE (SEROWE NORTH): Thank you Mr Speaker.

Ke ne ke re le nna ke tle ke tshwaele mo paakanyong e e sa tswang go bewa fa pele ga rona.
Pele ga ke simolola, gongwe ke tlhalose ka mafoko a a motlhofo gore terrorism ke eng ka gore gongwe ke gone mo go ka nthusang thata gore ke tle ke kgone go akgela sentle mo molaong o. Fa o lebelela tlhaloso ke gore terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons to intimidate especially the civilians in the pursuit of political race.

Ke ka fa bangwe ba e tlhalosang ka teng.


Le fa o tsamaya o ya kwa pele, go na le fa e supang teng gore there are six basic types of tactics tse terrorists ba di dirisang.

Dingwe tsa tactics tsa teng ke tsa hijackings, kidnappings, bombings, assassination, armed assault and barricade hostage incidents.

Ke dingwe tsa tactics tse ba di dirisang.


Re le lefatshe la Botswana fa re dira molao wa to counter terrorism, gongwe ke adime mafoko a ga Rra Nkamo a a neng a tlhalosa gore lefatshe la Botswana ke la tumelo, le ka bolone le farologanang le mafatshe a mangwe.
Go botlhokwa thata gore even though re tlaabo re apply mengwe ya melawana e e tlaabong e dirisiwa kwa mafatsheng a sele kana tactics tse di tlaabong di dirisiwa kwa mafatsheng a sele, ga re re itebelele re le lefatshe le rona go lebelela a setup ya lefatshe la rona ka fa le ntseng ka teng.

Le rona re tle ka strategies tse re ka counter terrorists, re se ka ra rely fela kwa mafatsheng a sele because mafatshe ga a tshwane.
Fa ke ka go fa sekai fa o bua ka hijackings and o lebelela kwa mafatsheng a sele a dikoloi di kgonang go tsewa fela mo dirobotong, mo Botswana it is something that is different.

Even 9 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) though it can happen but ga go ka ke ga diragala ka seemo se go diragalang kwa mafatsheng a sele.
Go raya gore ga re re nne le mokgwa o sele o o farologanang le ole o re ka kgonang go itebaganya le dikgang tse fa pele ga rona, go botlhokwa go dira jalo.

Fa ke lebelela mo molaong o jaaka o ne o tlhalosa gore investigating officers ke mang, o papametse o ntse jalo o tlhalosa ka mapodise, ke dumalana le gone.

Selo se se botlhokwa ke gore fa molao o dirilwe o ntse jaana, o tshwanetse go diragadiwa jaaka o ntse.
Ke gore the way molao o dirang ka teng now on operations, o tshwanetse to reflect ka fa gompieno re o buang ka teng.

Re se ka ra iphitlhela go diragala se sele.

Gape ba e leng gore they have been abused through molao o, go tshwanetse ga nna le ka fa ba sirelediwang ka teng.
Ga ke batle seemo se e leng gore jaaka Honourable Molebatsi a ne a bua a re motho a ye go itsheka, nnyaa, it is the responsibility of the Government gore ba ba sa tsewang sentle gongwe molao was abused, Goromente o tshwanetse go ema ka dinao a kgalemele, a se ka a emela motho a re a ye go itsheka.
Fa e le gore I was abused ke itswela kwa Serowe, kwa dikgaolong tse ke leng kwa go tsone mo Majwanaadipitse, Gojwane, ke sena madi a diagente, ke ya go sirelediwa ke mang fa e le gore Mopalamente o tlaa ema fa a re a ye go itsheka.

Batho bao ba tshwanetse gore ba sirelediwe ke ene Goromente, ka gore re solofela gore Goromente ke ene yo o tshwanetseng gore batho ba botlhe a ba tseye ka tekatekano.

Re a itse gore o a bo a romile batho a re tsamayang le ye to investigator.
Fa e le gore batho ba tswa mo tseleng ya thulaganyo e ba e neetsweng ke Goromente, a bo Goromente a ema ka dinao a re a ba itsheke, nnyaa, re tshwanetse ra sireletswa ke molao rotlhe.

Ke bua jaana ka gore go na le incidents… ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MR MOLEBATSI): Point of clarification Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker, ke kopa gore a tlhalose sengwe, a fe sekai sa gore tota Goromente o ka sireletsa batho ka tsela efe, kwa ntleng ga gore a ba sireletse ka gore a dire molao o o ba sireletsang.

Kana molao ke one o ba sireletsang, ke sone se e reng fa molao o sa diragale, o bo o ka kgona gore le ene Goromente o mo ise kwa makgotlatshekelong.

A fe sekai gore go ka sireletswa ka tsela e e ntseng jang, a nthute.

MR MATHOOTHE: Ke ne ke santse ke tlaa tla koo, o ne wa mphelela pelo.
Se ke se buang ke gore o dirile molao gore batho ba ye to investigator, bone batho bao ba bo ba itlela ka tse e seng sone, tse o sa ba di romang.

Ba bo ba felela ba tsenya Goromente mo mathateng, kana ba felela ba tsenya Motswana yo o tlaabong a le foo mo mathateng, mme e se dilo tse a di dirileng.

Ra re fa motho yoo a dule mo line, se emele pele o re a ye go itsheka.
Fa ke e fa sekai, fa o sena madi jaaka gompieno Batswana ba tshelela mo letlhokong, o ya go itsheka ka eng, leina la gago le gogobisitswe fa fatshe?

It is the responsibility of the Government gore, wena ka gore o ne o tshwanetse gore o bo o dirile jaana ga o a dira ka fa re go romileng ka teng, re go tseela dikgato tse di ntseng jaana.

Ke sone se ke se buang.


Fa o dirile jalo, go na le melao e e supang gore o ka tseelwa dikgato, go raya gore tiro ya gago o ya go e dira o itse gore go na le molao ke o, fa ke ka tswa mo tseleng go na le ka fa ke ka tseelwang dikgato ka teng.

Fa e le gore o ntsha molao fela wa re nnyaa, dira ka fa o ka dirang ka teng kana o suputsa mang fa fatshe nna ke Goromente ke a go ema ke re mo reyeng a itsheke.

O ya go sireletswa ke mang wena yo o gogobisitsweng leina fa fatshe?

Ke sone se ke se buang seo.


Fa ke go fa sekai; go na le case e e neng e feta ya ga “Butterfly” e go tswang go tsewa masupi a e seng one a bewa fa pele ga lekgotla.

Lekgotla la tlhalosa gore nnyaa, a masupi ke a botlhodi, ga re bone bosupi jo bo ka nnang ka tsela e e ntseng jaana.

Bosupi jo boneng bo bonwa ke mongwe le mongwe gore fa ke kgomo ya mmopa.

Leina la ngwana le gogobile fa fatshe, ngwana a ne a tsewa ka ditlhobolo, e le intimidation mo go ene a isiwa kwa makgotleng a ditsheko, a senyega leina.
Ra re ba ba dirileng jalo, le le Goromente le ba tseela dikgato tse di ntseng jang?

Ke gone mo re go buang re re fa molao o dirwa jaana, re nne le ka fa e leng gore ga go letlelesege gore go bo go nna le batho who they abuse it.

MR RAMOGAPI: Point of elucidation.


Kana katlholo e e fa pele ga rona, tse re ntseng re di buisana, o gakologelwe gore motho kana fa e le gore o ka bonwa molato gatwe a tlhatlhelwe botshelo jotlhe mo kgolegelong, ga ke itse gore a Rra Nkamo ke gore o kile a e bona sentle, botshelo jotlhe!

O bo o akanya o lebisitswe molato o e leng wa maitirelo, wa difilimi fela go dirwa filimi.

Kana ke mathata a a gakgamatsang.

O e tshwere ka botswerere, o e tshwere sentle, ke tsaya gore ba a go utlwa.

Ke a go leboga.
Ke a go leboga.

MR MATHOOTHE: Fa ke bua dikgang tse ga ke batle to blame ope mo go tsone.

Se ke se buang ke gore ka re a di lebelelwe, re se ka ra iphitlhela re le Goromente e kete jaanong re nna le seabe mo go kgokgontsheng the 10 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) citizens of this country.
Fa o ya mo explanation ya me ya terrorism, e tlhalosa gore intimidation of civilians, o tswelela o ba kgokgontsha, e nna the act of terrorism mme re le Goromente.

Ke yone kgang ya me e ke e buang.

Fa ke feta ke e fa sekai se sengwe; lekgotla la ditsheko le atlhotse gore DIS to release ntlo ya ga Khama.

Fa o tseela motho bonno ke dingwe tsa acts of terrorism, because o tseela motho bonno.
Molao o bo o tlhalosa gore nnyaa, gololang bonno jwa Motswana yo o mo Botswana, ra bo re tswelela re re nnyaa rona e bile re tswelela ka go ngangatlela bonno jwa gagwe.

Ke dingwe tsa dikai tse ke reng ke supe jalo gore, re ne re re fa re bua molao o, re se ka ra o lebelela ka diphathi, re o lebelele gore re batla go aga tšhaba e kamoso e tsogang e sireleditswe.

Re dira jalo re sa tseye letlhakore lepe.


Se ke se buang fela ke gore, a e re re dira melao e, a re boneng gore ba re ba e neelang ba e dirisa, go na le ka fa re ba laolang ka teng, go na le ka fa re ka ba kotelang ka teng gore golo fa le dule mo line.

Ba kgona go itirela fela ka bomo, jaaka Vice President (VP) fa gongwe a bua a re batho bao ba ne ba investigator.

Go tlaabo go emelelwa ka dikoloi di le 14 o latelwa kwa Tonota.

O ya go tsewa koo, o bo o tla o tlhotlhomisiwa.


Go tswa fa go bo go tikelwa kwa mapodiseng, mapodise fa gongwe a sa itse gore a motho yo ke motho wa mme kana wa rre.

Fa ba re ba ya to the cells ba fitlhela e le gore nnyaa ke motho wa mme, kana ga re re mmaakanyetse bonno bosele e seng kwa go tsentsweng borre teng.

Fa e ne e le gore that investigation e ne e dirwa ke mapodise, ba ne ba tlaabo ba itse gore re ya go mmaya kwa kae.
Fa o sena go nna o tsewa koo, o tseelwa phone ya gago, fa o re o reetsa dipotso tse di neng di botswa, gotwe o dule leng mo Domkrag?

O amana jang le Tautona wa pele?

O bo o bona gore ke dingwe tsa dikgang tse re reng gona le go senya lefatshe la Botswana, a re nneng mmogo mo dikgannyeng tse re tle re baakanye.

Re na le lefatshe le le lengwefela, le e leng lone le re ka nnang mo go lone.
Bagaetsho go mosola thata gore fa re setse jaanong re implement melao e, Tona a nne le tshwanelo ya gore nnyaa, golo fa le dule mo tseleng, ga le dire thomo e re le e romileng, e kete jaanong le e tla le itseela magopelo.

Fa o dira jalo, o a bo o supa gore you are a real leader, o a bo o batla go tlhabolola lefatshe la Botswana.

E seng gore nnyaa ke a mo tlogela ka gore o setse Hikuama morago, re kile ra se ka ra tsamaisana golo gongwe.

Ba bo ba nne ba mo tseye ba mo ise kwa le kwa.


Ke dingwe tsa dikgang tse re tshwanetseng re di lebelele.

Nngwe ya ntlha e e neng ya ntshiwa ke Honourable Kapinga, ke kgang ya gore lefatshe la Botswana le tlhaelelwa ke madi, mme re tshwanetse re babalele se re nang le sone.

E seng gore fela fa go ya go tsewa motho wa mme kwa Tonota, go bo go tsamaya dikoloi di le 7.

E bo e re fa di tswa kwa, di bo di letsa sirens go tswa kwa Tonota go tla go tsena mo Gaborone.
Naare mokgwa o wa sirens, o thusa jang mo ditlhotlhomisong?

Fa go ka emelela mapodise fela ba bo ba ya go tsaya mme yoo fela ba le babedi ba bo ba tla ba mmotsa, gona le gore dikoloi di emelele di le 14, e le tse disha fela.

Rona kwa Serowe fa re re magodu a dikgomo a jela batho dikgomo, ga gona le fa e le koloi, mme dikoloi tse 14 di kgona go emelela fa di ya go tsaya motho kwa Tonota.

Ke dingwe tse re tshwanetseng re di emise, re babalele se re nang le sone.

MR HIKUAMA: Point of clarification.


Ke a leboga Honourable Speaker, ke a leboga Honourable Member.

Ka fa ke utlwang o kgweetsa kana o buang ka teng, o bua jaaka Rre Honourable Nkawana.

Wa re le fa re ka tswa re dira melao e e kgatlhanong le borukutlhi kana terrorism, se se botoka ke go leka gore mebuso ya rona e dire dilo ka thokgamo, e itse bangongoregi ba bantsi.

Dilo tse di tlisang terrorism ke go gatelela le go garaswanya batho ba lefatshe le o leng mo go lone.
Fa o le mo Pusong e e siameng e tsamaisa dilo sentle, e se a primitive democracy jaaka e ne e tlhalosiwa, e e garaswanyang batho jaaka Deputy Speaker a a tle a re garaswanye fela, ke gone mo go tsalang tlhobaelo, a bo go raya gore batho jaanong ba itira digongwana tsa go leka go phatlalatsa lekunutu le le kgokgontshang ba bangwe.
A mme ke sone se o se gatelelang gore, borukutlhi le terrorism re ka di lwantsha ka go tsamaisa Puso sentle re sena kgatelelo mo bathong ba bangwe, e ka tswa e le ka letso, ditumelo le ka fa diphathi di ntseng ka teng?

Ke sone se o batlang go se ruta Batswana mokaulengwe?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: A ko o ditlontlokwaneng.

tswe mo MR MATHOOTHE: Go ntse jalo Honourable Member.
Fa ke ne ke bua ke re, we need to have our own strategies as a country to counter tse di ka diragalang mo go rona, because Botswana is a small population.

E bile batho ba ba nang le madi ba tsena mo seatleng, ba re ka belaelang gore gongwe madi a e seng one a ka tswa kae.

O fitlhela e le gore investigation ya teng ga e nne complex like kwa mafatsheng a mangwe.

Ke 11 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) investigations tse di sa tlhokafaleng gore fa gongwe o dire bo Omang ba ba five kana passports tse five ka o setse o itse gore pelaelo e fa kae.

Fa ke wela mo mafokong a me ke gore, a molao o diragadiwe ka fa o dumalanweng ka teng.

Ba jaanong ba etlang ba itseela magopelo, Tautona kana Minister a a tlhamalale a ba busetse mo tseleng.

Go se ka ga nna seipato se gotweng, nnyaa, ba a bo ba dira tiro ya bone.
Ga re a tshwanela go tsena mo seemong seo ka gore, ke lona ba le filweng Puso ke Batswana.

E se ka ya nna e re fa motho a kgokgontshiwa le bo le re, nnyaa, ga re batle go kgoreletsa.

Ke raya gore gompieno fela motho a isa bosupi jwa gore ntlo e a nnang mo go yone ke ya gagwe, mme e le ntlo ya Puso, o isa e le bosupi bo ntse jalo o a bo o re o tshwere eng?

Thank you Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ne ke re ke dira clarification, o siile jaanong?

MR SPEAKER: O siile.


MR LUCAS (BOBONONG): Ke a leboga Mr Speaker, le fa cameras tse di sa nna ka fa di tshwanetseng go nna ka teng.

Mr Speaker, ke simolole fela ka gore kgang e ya terrorism or counter-terrorism e matswakabele.

Mme ke ne ka bona maloba fa re romela masole a rona a Botswana kwa lefatsheng la Mozambique, fa ke reeditse dikakgelo tsa Matona, bogolo jang Tona wa tsa Mafatshe a sele Rre Kwape, ka bona gore go raya gore kgang e ya terrorism ga e ise e tlhaloganngwe gotlhelele.
Mme kana fa o ise o e tlhaloganye, ga o ka ke wa kgona to deal le yone sentle.

Fa re isa masole kwa Rre Kwape o ne a re, “nnyaa, re ba isa fela three months, e bile re solofela gore e tlile go nna kgaa-tshoo!” ke bo ke re oh!

ime-wee!

motho yo o itse terrorism tota, a e botse maAmerika.

Ba ntse ba e lwantsha for the last 30 years, mme e gana go bepa, ka gore terrorists kana ditsuolodi ke batho ba ba dirisang methale e e sa tlwaelesegang.

So go akanya gore re ka dira kgaa-tshoo!


re lwantsha terrorists kwa Mozambique o ne o bona gore go supa gore go santse go tlhaelwa thata mo go tlhaloganyeng gore tota mme terrorism go tewa eng, e bile e ntse ka mofuta o o ntseng jang.

For those 30 years tse ke neng ke di bua, America e lwantsha terrorism, ba bolaya le bo Osama Bin Laden, ba dumela gore ke gone jaaka gongwe ba fedisa terrorism, nnyaa, go padile.
Terrorism e ntse ke mathata a matona a a apereng lefatshe, e bile a a apereng mafatshefatshe le one a a tlhabologileng tota.

Gone moo ka bo gone go tshwanetse ga re ruta gore fa re leba kgang e ya terrorism, re e lebe re atolositse ditshekatsheko tsa rona.

Fa ke boela gone kwa Mozambique, re tshwanetse ra itse fela gore, gore re bo re ne ra dira thulaganyo ya gore le rona re le lefatshe re ye go thusa lefatshe la Mozambique le a mangwe go lwantsha terrorism, re tshwanetse ra itse gore re rumolane.
Re tshwanetse ra itse gape gore re kgotlile marago a ga dimo, ka jalo re tshwanetse ra ipaakanya.

Fa o rumolane ka tsela e re rumolaneng ka yone ka go isa masole kwa Mozambique, re tshwanetse jaanong ra tsena mo tlhoafalong e e fetang jaaka gongwe motho a ka e lemoga, ka gore terrorists ba re supile ka monwana, e bile ke dumela gore ga re ka ke ra tswa mo hit list ya bone ka re ne ra bonwa re le mangwe a mafatshe a a neng a ile go thusa kwa Mozambique.
Monna wa Mongwaketse a bua gore, “nnyaa, mme re ya go dira kgaa-tshoo!

fela,” a bua ka terrorists.

Go rumolana mo re go rumolaneng go raya gore re tshwanetse ra solofela, ra itse gore e kare ka nako le nako moiphatlakanyi, gongwe mo sekoleng kana kae fela mo lefatsheng la Botswana a iphatlakanya koo, a supe go tlhoka go itumela ga terrorists tseo.
Ke re re tshwanetse ra tlhoafala, mme re tlhoafala jaana re lebile dikgang tse tota dingwe tsa tsone di neng di buiwa ke Rre Kgoberego Nkawana gore, o a bona fa o bua ka terrorism le go gola ga yone, o tshwanetse wa amanya le dikgang tse pedi tse Rre Nkawana a di buileng; poverty and unemployment.

Above all, o tshwanetse wa itebaganya gape le dikgang tsa inequality; dipharologanyo tsa bahumi le bahumanegi.

O tshwanetse wa itebaganya gape le setšhaba sa gagwe gore, a mme se nna ka boitumelo.
Fa e le gore setšhaba sa gago se tshabelelwa ke lehuma le letlhoko la ditiro, gone moo ka bo gone is a breeding ground, jaaka Rre Kgoberego Nkawana a ne bua.

It is a breeding ground for terrorism ka gore, jaanong batho ba teng ba e leng gore ba mo lehumeng le le tseneletseng go motlhofo gore ba rekwe, ba dirisiwe ke terrorists ka e a bo e le jone botshelo mo go bone.

Gone moo re tshwanetse ra go ela tlhoko batho betsho.

Re tshwanetse ra lebelela gape gore, a mme tšhaba ya rona ke e e nnang ka boitumelo.
Go na le dipatlisiso tse di dirilweng tse di batlang go batlisisa gore tota mme ditšhaba tse di farologaneng di itumetse go le kae mo matshelong a tsone mo mafatsheng; study sa Happy Planet Index se se supang gore mo lefatsheng la Botswana, le fa o bona itsholelo ya rona e phophoma ka fa e phophomang ka teng, mme batho ba lefatshe la Botswana ke batho ba ba sa itumelang.
Bone ba Happy Planet Index ba supa tota gore, ka 2018 re ne re le number 142 mo mafatsheng a a sa itumelang, re gaisa mafatshe a 12 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) sekaenyana fela a e leng gore mo mafatsheng one a 156, la bofelo e le South Sudan, lefatshe la Botswana le ne le supa gore le kwa godimo thata mo bathong ba ba sa itumelang mo lefatsheng ka bophara.
Ka 2019 re ne re le number 148, dingwaga tse dingwe tse di latelang ra nna number 143.

Go supa gore lefatshe la Botswana le ntswa itsholelo ya lone e kgona go phophoma, le bokiwe ke mafatshe, mme the citizens are unhappy.

Fa e le gore baagi ba lefatshe la Botswana ga ba itumela, gone mo ka bo gone re tshwanetse ra batlisisa totatota gore mme ga ba itumedisiwa ke eng, ka seo re le Puso, reports tsa mofuta o re di batlisise re bone gore tota mme gone jaanong go tlhoka boitumelo jo re ka go baakanya jang.
Kana fa o lebile reports tse di supa gore mafatshe a re kgobokanngwang le one ka go tlhoka boitumelo, ke bo Syria, Afghanistan, South Sudan le Zimbabwe.

Gone mo go supa tota ka bo gone gore, itsholelo ya rona ga e tsamaelane le state of happiness ya batho ba lefatshe la Botswana.
Ka jalo re tshwanetse ra ema ka dinao ra leka to address kgang ya gore ke eng batho ba sa itumela, ka gore fa batho ba sa itumela go raya gore go nna bonolo gore terrorists di kgone gore jaanong di age cells tsa tsone amongst batho bao, ba e leng gore ga ba itumela.

Sengwe sa dilo tse e leng gore… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation.

MR LUCAS: Ee, Rraetsho.

MR KEORAPETSE: Through you Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Yes, elucidation.

MR KEORAPETSE: Ee mokaulengwe, ke ne ke re o e tshwere sentle.
Ke re kana mme kgang e tota o e buang kana ke yone kgang kwa Mozambique mo kgaolong ya Cabo Delgado, ka gore ke nngwe ya dikgaolo tse di humileng ditswammung, mme di humanegile, tsa bo tsa nkgopotsa Kgaolo ya Boteti e diteemane di bonwang kwa go yone.
Tsa bo tsa nkgopotsa Kgaolo ya Jwaneng- Mabutsane e diteemane di bonwang mo go yone, mme fa o re o leba khumanego e e mo dikgaolong tseo… kana ke yone kgang e o e buang gore fa batho ba sa itumela, fa dipharologano tsa ba ba humileng le ba ba humanegileng di nna kwa godimo, fa khumo e sa abiwe sentle, bangwe ba ikgagapelela.

Fa ditlhabololo di seyo, batho ba sa itumela, e ka nna a breeding ground ya terrorism.

Ke dumalana le wena gore ke kgang e e kwa Cabo Delgado.

MR LUCAS: Ke a leboga honourable.


Kgang e, ke dumela gore le ba e leng gore gongwe re a farologana ka megopolo, kana reports tse ga di kwalwe ke rona; ga di kwalwe ke Botswana Congress Party (BCP) kana Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC).

Ke reports tse di kwalwang ke makgotla a ditšhaba a a nang le boitseanape jo bo tseneletseng jwa to measure level of happiness mo lefatsheng.
Reports tse, ga re nke re itlhaganelela go bona gore tota mme ke eng se e leng gore re ka se dira ra leka go itebaganya le go tlhoka go itumela mo lefatsheng le.

Kana fa go sena boitumelo, go raya gore go tletse tšhakgalo.

Fa go sena boitumelo, go raya gore go tletse bogalaka jo bo ka dirang gore motho wa teng fa e le gore o ka hirelwa gore a iphatlakanye, o ka iphatlakanya because after all o bona botshelo bo sa tlhole bo na le boleng.
Ka jalo, re tshwanetse ya re fa re bua ka kgang e ya terrorism, re bo re e bapisitse thatathata le dikgang tse di amang itsholelo.

There is a lot of unhappiness amongst our young people in Botswana.

Ba ipona phakela le phakela motho a ya to market a tshwere envelop a bo a boa maitseboa go sena se se diragetseng.

Go diragala jalo for three, four or five years o ntse o tshwere envelope o sa kgone go bona tiro.
Gone moo ka bogone, go dira gore o latlhegelwe ke tshepho, botshelo le jone bo go sulafalele mo e leng gore kgantele fa mongwe a ka go offer gore mme jaanong rona re ne re ka go thusa, re ka go thusa fela mme fa o ne o ka joena group ya rona e e leng gore tota e leka go lwantsha mafatshe a a sotlang banni ba one, motho yo o ntseng jalo o bonolo gore a join.
Ngwana yo o tshwarang envelope for five years e bo e re a iteba a bo a fitlhela e le gore mme mo lefatsheng la Botswana go na le khumo e e tsitsibanyang mmele mo bathong ba bangwe.

Ke sone se se re tlisang jaanong mo kgannyeng ya inequality.

Kana mo lefatsheng ka bophara, we are in the top 10 nations… MR MOATLHODI: Clarification Mr Speaker.

Ke a leboga kgomo ya me, ke a leboga mogwagwadi wa me.

Ke tsena ka ofisi ya gago ya tlotla Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke a leboga sir.
Ke kopa maitshwarelo a matona thata mo kgomong, ke go busetsa fa moragonyana.

Lefatshe la rona le ile kwa Mozambique go thusa, o tlhalosa fa re kgotlile marago a ga dimo, gore re rumolane ka go dira jalo.

Ke ne ke re a mogwagwadi wa me o a lemoga gore lefatshe la Botswana ke leloko la SADC, Organisation of African Unity (OAU) le makgotla a mangwe?

Gone go nna leloko la SADC go re tlama gore lefatshe la Mozambique e le leloko la SADC, e re le ronkgelwa re le thuse.
Fa re sa thuse, ga o bone re tlaabo re bonwa re sa dirisane ka tirisano ya tumalano?

13 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Ya bofelo mogwagwadi wa me, ke itumela ka ke go tsene ganong, ke ntlha ya batho ba ba sa itumelang.

Nnyaa, ga ke ka ke ka ganetsana le wena gore batho ga ba a itumela.
Mme ke ne ke re ke go botse mogwagwadi wa me gore maiteko a a kanakana a mananeo a a farologaneng, a ga o bone e le maiteko a go leka go tima lenyora le la go tlhoka boitumelo?

Ke lebogile Mr Speaker, ke lebogile Honourable Member.

MR LUCAS: O ne o leka go nketsha mo kgannyeng e ke neng ke leka go e bua ka gore ga o ka ke wa bua ka kgang ya gore ga ke itse gore Botswana o mo SADC kgotsa mo OAU, ke a itse.

Mme ka re le fa go ntse jalo, o itse gore re rumolane.
E nngwe ya mananeo, a ntse a le teng one a bo Ipelegeng, Livestock Management and Infrastructure Development (LIMID) le a mangwe, tšhaba ya rona e supafala e ntse e sa itumela.

Itse seo mlamu, itse gore batho ba lefatshe la Botswana ga ba a itumela.

Ga se nna ke rialong, go bua makgotla a batlhotlhomisi, baitseanape ba ba tseneletseng.

Mlamu, o ka nna wa nyatsa fela gore fa gongwe go direlwa lefufa, nnyaa, ga ke go direle lefufa.

Ke nnete e e neng e kwadilwe ke ba mafatshe a sele.
Mma ke tswelele ke supe jaana, ntlhanyana ke e ke fete ka yone.

Kgang e ya inequality, rona re le Botswana, re mo mafatsheng a a 10 a dipharologanyo tsa bahumi le bahumanegi di godileng go gaisa.

We are in the top 10 unequal nations in the world.

Gone moo ke gone mo go dirang gore ngwana yo o phakelang a tshwere envelope for five years a sa bone tiro a bo a itshwantshanya le ba bangwe ba e leng gore bone khumo mo go bone ke matlhare, ke khumo gongwe le gongwe.
Gone moo ka bogone go tlisa tšhakgalo le boitlhobogo jo bo feteletseng jo bo ka dirang gore bone ba e leng gore ke terrorists ba kgone go batla batho ba mofuta one o ba e leng gore ba itlhobogile kgotsa ba šhakgaditswe ke gore le ntswa ba bangwe ba humile mo go kanakana bone ba humanegile mo go tlhabisang ditlhong o kare ga ba a bopiwa mo setshwanong sa Modimo.
Gone moo ka bogone, re tshwanetse ra go ela tlhoko gore re …(Interruptions)… jang mo go reng re bo re na le dipharologanyo tse di kanakana mo lefatsheng la Botswana.

Kgang e ke tlhola ke e bua ka metlha gore fa o ya kwa dikgaolong tse di tshwanang le tsa Gantsi, Kweneng West le Ngwaketse South, lehuma la teng fa o le tshwantshanya le la dikgaolo tse dingwe le kwa godimodimo.
Le fa o re o a utlwa o a reetsa gore mo planning ya lefatshe la Botswana a re leka go addressa kgotsa go itebaganya le dipharologanyo tsone tse, ga o ka ke wa bona maiteko a teng.

Dikgaolo tsotlhe tsa bo Motlotlegi Lesaso tsa bo Mokgenene, lehuma le le kalokalo le le gone koo, ke le le leng bonolo gore motho fa a ka tla fela a re o batla to recruit for Al-Qaeda kgotsa ya ISIS, go nna bonolo gore batho bao ba ka mo sala morago.
Ke dikgang tse re tshwanetseng ra di tsaya tsia, ra di tlhoafalela ra itse ka metlha gore kgang e ya terrorism fa re ka e tsaya fela mo go reng re tlaa dira molao re sa itebaganye le tse di amang matshelo a batho, ga re kitla re e kgona gotlhelele.

Sa rona e tlile go nna selelo fela sa gore kana terrorism e a gola.
Le tsone dikomiti tse tse Motlotlegi Molebatsi a di ratang thata tsa bo Counter Terrorism and Fusion, di tshwanetse le tsone di itebaganye le go leka gore di ka gakolola Puso jang gore e itebaganye le the economic hardships tse di lebaganeng le batho ba lefatshe la Botswana.

Gompieno jaaka re bua jaana, batho ba lefatshe la Botswana ga ba a itumela gotlhelele ka gore go turu; ba berekela peterole, motlakase le mafura.

Gatwe cooking oil e palame le go gaisa, batho ba a complain.
Le fa gongwe fa o re o tsena kwa Choppies kwa Bobonong, mosadimogolo o go raya a re, “Lucas, a ko o bue le Choppies ba fokotse mafura, kana a a tura.” Ke gore go na le go tlhoka boitumelo mo e leng gore go gongwe le gongwe.

Fa ke tsena fa kgannyeng e e neng e buiwa ke Honourable Mathoothe, fa o re o lebelela ditiro tsa DIS, ga o bone e kete e itebagantse thata le dikgang tsa matshelo a batho le gore di ka rarabololwa jang gore tšhakgalo e e kanakana e fele mo lefatsheng la Botswana.
Sa bone ke thulaganyo fela e ke sa itseng gore a motho o ka e bitsa a reng, kgotsa o ka e bitsa a re ‘banyana mponeng,’ e e leng gore go tlhola go alotswe bo Butterfly le Isaac Kgosi.

Go tlhola go setswe morago bo General Khama, gotwe batho ba ke bone ba re belaelang terrorism mo go bone.

Ee, e belaeleng fa le batla mme le itse gore terrorism fa gongwe e batla tlhoafalo e e fetang e re e bonang mo Pusong ya lefatshe la Botswana.
Thulaganyo e ya go tlhola go setswe batho morago ka dikoloi di le 20 motho a le mongwefela yo e leng gore mme e bile ga a siele gope e bo e le gore jaanong gatwe ke gone jaanong go tlaabo go dirwa counter terrorism, nnyaa, moo ga re ise re tlhoafale gotlhelele.
Re tlaa itse gore re tlhoafetse fa re bona jaanong DIS e address strategic issues tse di ka dirang gore batho ba lefatshe la Botswana le bone ba nne le ditsompelo tsa itsholelo tse di ka fokotsang tšhakgalo e e kanakana le bogalaka jo bo kanakana jo bo dirwang ke letlhoko le re le bonang.

Ke ratile thata fa Honourable Kgoberego a present ke bo ke ipotsa gore a monna yo ke ene wa diphologolo?
O kgona go amanya sentlentle gotlhelele matshelo a batho le tourism ka 14 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) bokgabane jo ke bo ratileng Rre Nkawana.

Gone mo ka bogone, ke selo se re tshwanetseng gore re se ele tlhoko re se sale morago.
A re se ka ra iphitlhela e le gore jaanong DIS ya rona tiro ya yone e tona ke go tshameka games tsa sepolotiki gore “nnyaa mme kana jaanong Tautona botshelo jwa gagwe ga bo a sireletsega, a re rekeng armoured cars.” Fa di sena go nna di rekiwa, Tautona o dirisa koloi e nngwe e, ga ke itse gore ba re ke yone mang, kgotsa gatwe GD 6, o ipotsa gore gatwe tsele di ne di rekelwa eng?
A e ne e le fela gore go kgabisiwe fela go supiwe gore le rona re ka kgona go di reka kgotsa go ne go tlhoafetswe fa gotwe botshelo jwa ga Tautona ga bo a sireletsega?

Re tshwanetse dilo tse ra di ela tlhoko.

A re simololeng go tlhoafala ka gore gape re rumolane.
Fa o rumolane, o kgotlile marago a ga dimo, ga o tshameke diketo tse o di tshamekang tse re bonang di tshamekiwa ke bo DIS, o simolola jaanong o tsena mo dithulaganyong tse e leng gore ka tsone o ka kgona gore o laole tšhakgalo ya batho ba lefatshe la gago.
Jaaka re tlaabo re ya kwa debate e gotweng re tlaabo re reediwa, e gotweng batho ba tlaabo ba kgona go direlwa bo Omang ba le five, four, fa gongwe o sa nyala gotwe o nyetse, fa gongwe o sule gotwe o a tshela, jaaka re tsamaela gone koo, re tshwanetse ra itse gore dikgang tseo le tsone, di tlile go oketsa tšhakgalo mo lefatsheng la Botswana.

Fa di oketsa tšhakgalo, re tshwanetse ra itse gore terrorism le yone e tlaa oketsega, e bile jaanong the breeding grounds for terrorism di tlaabo di le teng.
Ka jalo, re tshwanetse gore tse dingwe tse tsa diketo, tsa go tlhola le reeditse batho ba bua dikgang tsa bone, ga se tsone tse di ka fokotsang terrorism.

Fa e le gore la re ke FATF e e reng le ye go reetsa batho, le se ka la thwaafala le tlhole le alotse bo Butterfly, bo Isaac Kgosi le bo Khama, e nne yone e kete ke strategy sa lona, gone moo ka bogone le tshwanetse la itse gore nnyaa mme tota go raya gore ga re ye gope mo kgannyeng yone e ya terrorism.
E le neng le e eleditse ya kwa Mozambique, e nne le re gongwe re ka tsaya three months ya kgaa-tshoo!

wena Rre Kwape, o itse gore ga e ka ke ya kgonagala.
Re santse re tile go dirisa madi a a boitshegang kwa Mozambique, mme go ntse go supafala gore ga go na letseno, ga go na madi mo lefatsheng la Botswana, madi a tlaabo a dirisiwa kwa Mozambique, mme ka kwano jaanong go raya gore tšhakgalo ya batho, dipharologanyo tsa bahumi le bahumanegi, poverty, unemployment, tsone di a oketsega, tšhakgalo e a oketsega, the breeding ground for terrorism le yone e tlaabo e ntse e expand.
Gone moo ka bogone ke dikgang tse di botlhokwa tse di tshwanetseng gore di salwe morago batho betsho.

tsone dikomiti functions Ke wele ka one mafoko one ao ke re, a re simololeng go tlhwaafala, molao re o bone, o bua ka go expand examination officers, o neela tsa tse bo Counter-Terrorism and Fusion di atolotsweng.

Fela kwa bofelong, let us address fundamental socio-economic ...(Interruptions)... that make our people unhappy in the Republic of Botswana.
If we do not do that, jaanong we run the risk ya gore terrorism e tle e age kwano, mme e bile e tlaa aga kwano ka gore re rumolane, re kgotlile marago a ga dimo ka go ya gone kwa Mozambique.

DR GOBOTSWANG: Clarification.

Ke botsa fela gore a mme yone BDP e na le capacity of addressing tsone dikgang tseo sir?

Tanki.

MR LUCAS: Nnyaa, ga e na capacity gotlhelele, ke sone se ke dumelang gore Reset Agenda e ...(Interruptions)... Domkrag.

Ke a leboga.
Ke a leboga.

MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Ke a go leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

Keletso ya me ya go akgela mo bontsing jwa melao e e ntseng e buisanwa, e ntse e le kwa tlase ka mabaka a gore ke tsaya gore go buisana go a bo go lebisanngwa mabaka.

Bills tse di fa pele ga rona tse dintsintsi tse, mathata ke gore, sengwe le sengwe se se buiwang, ba party ya Domkrag ba bone tshega e ba ipatang ka one.
Sengwe le sengwe se ba se batlang ba re go buile monna mongwe fa o motona o bidiwa FATF; dira ka bonako, come-on, come-on, a re fetiseng, FATF e rile e batla go ntse jalo.

Ga se lantlha re tsamaisa jaana.

Ba le bantsi ba ne ba bua mo Palamenteng ka Palamente e e fetileng ya bolesome.

Deputy Speaker le wena Speaker, o tlaa gakologelwa gore le ka Palamente ya borobabongwe, re ne re bereka gone mo.
Tona wa nako eo Rre Matambo le mothusi wa gagwe yo go neng gotwe Dr Gloria Somolekae, re nne re fetisisiwa melao gotwe fetisang ka bonako, ga se rona ke makgotla a a kwa ntle.

Jaanong re gone foo gape mo e leng gore ga re reetsane, kgang ke FATF, a re fetiseng.

Tse dingwe o kgona go bona gore go raya gore se re se dirang ke mo makgoa ba a tleng ba re we are ticking boxes.

Re batla go ya go bolelela Principal mongwe yo re mo tshabang gore re diragaditse jaaka o ne o kopile.
Ga re na nako ya go lebisanya mabaka re le Mapalamente gore a mme se sone se siame.

15 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Fa e le gore la re FATF e le reetse ya re fa o ka nna le fine ya P10 million, terrorist e tlaa seke e tsweledise se neng e batla go se dira.

Le bo le dumela, le bo le tla le tabogile le re a re fetole molao, a jaanong re tsenye gore fine e ke P10 million.
A bo o dumela gore lekgotla la ditsuolodi fa di utlwa gotwe go na le fine ya P10 million, di tlaa emela kgakala; you are misleading yourself.

Re a iphora fa e le gore re ka nna le ditumelo tseo.

le Tautona Masisi, yo leleme la gagwe go le gantsi le mo etelelang pele, dikakanyo di bo di tla kwa morago gore go raya eng, go diphatsa.
Like I say, o ne a bua in full view, I have a video clip ya ga Tautona Masisi a bua gore party nngwe they are bandits, they are vigilante groups, they are rebel movement, ga ba tsamaise ka fa molaong wa Botswana.

O bo o bona gore nnyaa, fa re mo diphatseng.

Ke batla go gatelela point e Mr Speaker.


Bontsi jwa melao e mo teng go na le dikotlhao fela tse di sisimosang mmele, tse ope a ka sekang a eletsa go utlwa ka letsatsi lepe gotwe mongwe wa lesika la bona o lebisitswe molato o. Melao e ga e reye sepe fa e le gore ba ba tshwereng maemo ba na le bokgoni jwa go dirisa melao e bosula.
Ba Domkrag ba itibisa go sele fa go buiwa ka kgang e e neng e tsene mo Botswana, re bona ngwana wa Motswana a katilwe ke masole a se kana ka sepe, a iphitlhile difatlhego gotwe ke setsuolodi, ba tshega ka yone.

Mo go bone one life destroyed means nothing.

Fa o kile wa atlholwa ka terrorism, ga go na gope kwa o ka tlholang o bona tiro teng.

Fa o ikopela tiro o re ke bidiwa Welhemina Maswabi ke tswa Botswana, basic check e bo e supa gore o kile wa face charge ya terrorism, le phirimile ka wena.
Mapalamente a Domkrag mo ga go reye sepe mo go bone, ba retologa ka ditilo, ba a nyenya fa go buiwa ka sone seo.

Mo go bone go siame fela ka gore ba ne ba leka go ipusolosetsa mo mongweng, ba ne ba tshwanetse ba bopele mongwe kgomo ya mmopa, mme e bile ba ba neng ba bopela ngwana yo kgomo ya mmopa, bangwe ba bone ba solofeditswe maemo ke Puso ya Domkrag.

Ga go na ditlamorago gore fa o ka dirisa molao o bosutlha, o tlaa tsena mo mathateng.
Mongwe wa batho ba ba setseng ba itshupile gore ba ka dirisa melao e bosutlha ke Tautona Mokgweetsi Eric Masisi, ke tlaa le fa one example.

Fa a utlwa mogote wa ipapatso ya ditlhopho ka 2019, o ne a dirisa mafoko mangwe a a lebaganya le baganetsi ba gagwe, diphathi tse dingwe tse di kwadisitsweng ka fa molaong mo Botswana, a ba bitsa gore ke bandits, vigilante groups, marabele.
Kana those three words a le nosi, a lekane gore Tautona Masisi a bo a tsaya tshwetso gore party e jaanong go tswa gompieno go ya kwa pele, ke terrorists.

Tautona Masisi, a le ka fa tlase ga kgatelelo.

O ne a setse a supa re ya ditlhophong gore o ka dirisa dithata tsa gagwe go manega mongwe kana lekgotla lengwe la sepolotiki label ya terrorism.
Jaanong fa re tsaya tsone tse tsotlhe re ya go di baya mo diatleng tsa a leader with erratic mind, yo o ipuelang fela a sa kgathale gore go raya eng go bua jaana, a tshwana Fa re tsaya melao e e ntseng jaana re re nnyaa, ke FATF, re e baya mo diatleng tsa moeteledipele jaaka ke bua, yo o sa welang sentle mo dikakanyong, yo o sa boneng go le molato go manega lekgotla se e seng sone, yo o bonang go siame gore a tsholetse maemo ba ba madi diatleng, ba ba ka senyetsang bana ba bangwe bokamoso, a bo a re ke bone ba ke ba tsholetsang maemo, re mo mathateng a Tautona ene yo, re mo neela melao yone e. Mo godimo ga moo, re mo neela melao e gape re bo re mo neela le organisations tse e leng gore Rre Molale maabane o ne a bua ka the need for checks and balances, mo Botswana ga go na checks and balances.
Melao yotlhe e o e balang e, le batho ba ba tlhomiwang, Tautona o tsaya tshwetso.

Kwa mafatsheng a mangwe, ga o ka ke wa nna moeteledipele wa FIA leina la gago le sa feta ka komiti ya Palamente go le sekaseka.

Kwano ga se ngwao e re e tsentseng fa gare ga rona.
Le fa gotwe go a rerisiwa mo Botswana, gotwe nnyaa Tautona o rerisitse moeteledipele wa Kganetso, kwa molao o mo pateletsang teng gore a rerisanye, o tlaabo a go raya a re leina ke le, ke lone fela, a wa le dumela, fa o re ga ke dumelane, a bo a re tanki, ke go rerisitse, nna ke tlhabela pele.

Ke one morero wa Puso ya Domkrag.

We have built institutions tse di senang accountability mo Botswana.

Le tsone tse bo FIA le bo DIS, ga go na accountability mo teng.
Sengwe se ke batlang go se gatelela ke se e leng gore gape se ntse se buiwa, ba party ya Domkrag fa o ba lebile jaana, ba tsaya gore ke dinyao, ke matshamekwane.

The only way you can deal with terrorists, kana go le gantsi terrorists ke batho kana makgotla a a sa itumeleleng sengwe e bile a dumela gore ga a reediwe, ba sa bone bokamoso bope jo bo botoka fa pele ga bone.
The case of Mozambique ke sekai gore ditsuolodi di tseneng teng di bone di fitlhetse e le gore the Mozambican Government has created a fertile environment gore di ka tsena gone foo.

I want to give you an example ya phuthego e ke neng ke e buisa ngwaga o o fetileng kwa Maun.
Monnamogolo fela yo o bonang gore o kgakala le makgotla a ditsuolodi, ga a itse sepe ka terrorists organisation, a emelela mo Kgotleng a bo a nkopa ke le 16 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Mopalamente gore ka fa a bonang lehuma mo kgaolong ya rona ka teng, ka fa a bonang Puso e tsere tshwetso ka teng gore North West District ga e ka ke ya nna le ditsela, e tlaa gone fela kwa re tshwanetseng re tsamaya mo leroleng, whether o bua ka internal roads kana ditsela fa ga re ga metse, go santse go le lefifi re sena streetlights.
Kwa dikgaolong tse di tshwanang le bo Moshupa, Honourable Gare o kgona go fitlhela kgaolo fela e o bonang gore ke meraka go tsentswe streetlights.

A re tsamaya o ye go ba bolelela gore fa e le gore ga ba batle go re tlhabolola, ke eng ba sa re tlogele ka madi a rona a bojanala?

Rona ra sala ka one ra itseela ditshwetso.

Ke eng Puso e e tla kwa Ngamiland fela go ya go tsaya madi mme e bo e sa tsenye ditlhabololo tsa kgaolo?
A bo a re fa e le gore ba tsamaisa jalo, ba re kopele ba re tlogele ka madi a rona.

Very innocent old man, a sa rotloediwe ke mowa ope wa botsoulodi.

A political science student kwa university o tlaa go raya a re these are cessationist tendencies, ke batho ba ipaakanyetsa go kopa go tswa mo lefatsheng.

When a terrorist organisation hears this, it is music to their ears.

BDP e tlaabo e ba beetse penalty ka gore bone fa ba lebelela, ga ba bone gope kwa go iwang teng.
So molaetsa wa me le kgakololo ya me ke e; these fines tsa bo P10 million le P5 million ga di reye sepe fa e le gore ga re itebaganye le tse di rotloetsang batho gore ba amogele lenaneo la ditsoulodi.

Selo se se rotloetsang batho gore ba amogele dikakanyo tsa botsoulodi ke go ba tima ditlhabololo.

Fa godimo ga moo ke go gana go ba reetsa, re tsaya gore ke ba palo e nnyennyane.

There is a culture mo Palamenteng yone e ya gore fa le sena dipalo ga le reediwe.
Akere le a itse gore Honourable Morwaeng karabo ya gagwe e tona gantsi fa o re o ntsha sengwe, ke “re a busa sir, lona le tlhophetswe go ganetsa.” Ga go reye sepe gore le akantse eng.

Mowa wa teng o teng mme go simologa kwa ofising e tona ya ga Tautona Mokgweetsi Masisi, Molaomotheo ke wa gagwe sir.

Ene o tlhophetswe go ya go tsamaisa Molaomotheo.

Gore lona dikakanyo tsa lona ke eng go sa kgathalesege gore le emetse over 48 per cent ya batlhophi, o a le itlhokomolosa.
O tsamaisa and set terms of reference a le nosi, o itlhophela the Commissioners a le nosi, ga bo go sena gore o ka reng.

Ke gore le fa go tserwe motho fela yo o itseng gore kana mme yo ga gona paragraph e one mo Constitution e a ka go e balelang, go bo gotwe o na le dithata.

One mowa o wa go gana go reetsa mantswe a mangwe, kana gatwe e anya e leletse e ruta e e mo maleng.
Mowa wa lona maDomkrag wa go dumela gore ba ba palo-potlana ga ba reye sepe, ga ba reediwe, ka fa le o jwalang le go o rotloetsang ka teng, o foo ke fano.

Lo kgaoganya setšhaba.

Kgang e nngwe e ke neng ke batla go bua ka yone… MR MOATLHODI: On a point of clarification.

Ke a leboga Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke a go leboga thata ngwana wa ga nkgonne Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Maun Bophirima, e bile o le Moeteledipele wa Kganetso.
Loleme la me le ganelela mo go Mopalamente wa Maun Botlhaba ka gore I campaigned for him.

Ke a go utlwa ngwana wa ga mogolole ka kgang ya Commissioners.

Ka tlotlo le tlhompho, you know my respect and appreciation on you.
Fa o ka lebelela kwa morago kwa go Motlotlegi moswi Tautona Masire, Rraetsho Mogae, tota le Rraetsho Khama, go tlhophiwa ga Commissioners go ne go ntse go le teng mme ba go dira ka seriti sa bo Tautona le diofisi tsa bone, ga gona ope yo o kileng a nna le ngongorego gore ga le a bua le rona, kampo ke eng le sa re tsenya.

Letsatsi leno ke eng go go tshwenya mo go kanakana ngwana wa ga nkgonne, le mororo Motlotlegi Rraetsho Tautona Masisi a tlhotlhoma mo metlhaleng ya bomogolowe ba ba fetileng?
Ke yone potso ya me fela ngwana wa ga nkgonne.

E bile ke lebogela go bo o ne o mphile tlotlo ya go go tsena ganong.

Ke lebogile Mr Speaker.

MR REATILE: On a point of clarification.

Through you Mr Speaker.

Honourable Member of Parliament, Leader of the Opposition (LOO), ke utlwa o bua ka kgang e ya gore Motswana o rile e e anyang e leletse e ruta e e mo maleng.
E seng gore honourable o leka to communicate gore e tlaa re kamoso Batswana ba le neetse maikarabelo, melao e e sokameng, e e tlhabisang ditlhong e o bo o re jaanong o simolola o busa Batswana ka yone?

A ko o leke go tlhatswa kgang ya gago, o supe gore golo mo le e bile gotwe e anya e leletse e ruta e e maleng, ga se thuso e e leng gore wena o ka e amogela, o ka ikamanya le yone.

Ke a leboga.

MR SALESHANDO: Thank you.


Honourable Moatlhodi with due respect, nna e bile ke ne ke ka amogela fa o ne o re ba ba tsileng pele ba ne ba le botoka go na le yo re nang le ene gompieno.
O a itse gore e rile re ya go amend molao wa ditlhopho gore Batswana ba ba 18 years ba tlhophe, go nne le Independent Electoral Commission (IEC), tsamaiso ya ditlhopho e e tswang kwa ofising ya ga Tautona, Tautona wa nako eo Rre 17 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Masire o ne a bitsa diphathi tsotlhe tse di neng di le teng mo lefatsheng a ya go thulanya ditlhogo le bone.
A ya go tsaya ditshwetso tsa go fetola dintlha tseo a rerisantse le ba bangwe.

Wa gompieno o kile a bitsa baeteledipele ba diphathi tsa kganetso pele ga ditlhopho, a solofetsa dilo di se kana ka sepe jaaka a tlwaetse.

A re raya a re all party conferences di tlile, a bo a bua mo phuthegong eo gore le funding of political parties itlhaganeleng, fa go kgonagala ke batla gore e diragale pele ga ditlhopho.

Akere re a itse gore ke ka fa a tsamaisang ka teng.
Mo go ene fa a lebile Batswana jaana o bona madila, re jewa ka loleme letsatsi le letsatsi.

Fa godimo ga moo Honourable Moatlhodi, ke le Moeteledipele wa diphathi tsa Kganetso, ke mo kwaletse lekwalo ngwaga o o fetileng ka September, ke mmaya megopolo pele gore re ne re akanya gore a re ka thulanya ditlhogo ka kgang ya Molaomotheo ka gore fa ga re bue ka dintlha dingwe, re bua ka Molaomotheo otlhe.
Ke mo Botswana fela mo President a tsayang gore go kwalelwa ke Moeteledipele wa Kganetso ke selo se a ka se nyenyafatsang a se nyefola, a go didimalela, a bo a dira jaaka a batla.

Ke ka fa a tsamaisang ka teng.

Se mo tshwantshanye le ba ba tsamaileng bo Rre Rra Gaone golo ba go letseng, ba tloga ba pitokologa mo dikesing tsa bone ba hutsafala gore o ba tshwantshanya le tsamaiso e e tseneng gompieno, e le bone ba neng ba sa tsamaise ka yone.
Honourable Reatile, melao ga ke dumalane le yone e mentsi e. Le bone bo DIS, ke dumela gore fa re tsena mo Pusong, selo santlha ga ba iphetlhe ka fa ba itshwarang ka teng.

Molao wa DIS ke foromo e e segilweng ya botlhokatsebe.

Tota mo Botswana DIS ga se lekgotla la to gather intelligence, ke sjambok sa Tautona yo o tokameng gore fa a kgopisitswe ke mongwe a mo iteye ka sone.

Ke yone tsamaiso e e teng mo letsatsing la gompieno.

Ke sone se o bonang DIS e kgona go itlhokomolosa le court orders.
They are above the law, ke sjambok sa ga Tautona.

Legale ka gone gatwe molaa Kgosi o a bo a itaela, o foo ke fano.

Morwa Setlhomo Masisi, ga se wena Tautona wa bofelo wa lefatshe la Botswana.

Ba bangwe ba kile ba tla bo Tautona, ra ba raya ra re makgotla a ga a siama, ba tswa go lemoga ba dule.

Fa o sa baakanye, o tlaa lemoga o dule gore tse di neng di diragala ka fa tlase ga tlhokomelo ya gago di ne di sa siama.
Ke tlaa kopa Tona gore fa a digela, a tlhalose kgang e ya Fusion Centre gore pele e simolotse kae, e le ka fa tlase ga molao ofe, lekgotla lefe, ya ya kae, gompieno re e isa kae?

The genesis, the footprints of the Fusion Centre le mabaka gore ke eng e ne ya tswa kwa, e bo e ya kwa lekgotleng lele, go ne go lebeletswe eng?

Ke tlaa digela puo ya me Mr Speaker ka gore, jaaka ke ne ke akgela mo melaong e, e kwa tlase ka gore ga go dirisiwe dikakanyo.

Re tsile ka gore Domkrag ya re, e tshoseditswe ke ba FATF.
Batho fa ba tla ba le mo letshogong, o bo o re o ba lebisa mabaka, bone ba dumela gore tau e fa ntle, go thata gore ba go reetse.

Ke tlaa dira kopo e le nngwefela ya gore e tlile gore go tsenwa kwa Committee Stage, tota mo ke tlaabong ke go dira, e tlaabo e le go tlhapa diatla gore kamoso le se ka la re ga le a bolelelwa.

Ke tlaa tlisa Ditshutiso dingwe tse di tlisang accountability, checks and balances.

O tle o ba utlwe Mr Speaker ba ba neng ba re go tlhokafala checks and balances.
Fa gotwe a re direng gore lekgotla le le account, re dire gore yo o tlhophiwang a fiwe dithata tse, e bo e le gore le rona re le Palamente re ikgotsofaditse.

Go ka go gakgamatsa, gompieno Commissions of Enquiries Act e ntsha taolo yotlhe ya Constitution mo Palamenteng.

Ba letsa mogolokwane gore ka seriti sa mogolo, go bonwe go siame gore a tsamaise a le nosi.
Mafatshe a mangwe a ne a review Constitutions ba simolotse kwa Palamenteng ka melao e e bidiwang Constitutional Review Act e le bone ba segang tema.

Rona kwano ke seriti sa mogolo.

Re le Mapalamente, re tlaabo re le bomang fa Modimo wa rona, rraarona a supile, a go bakwe leina la ga Jehovah.

This is a bad culture, leaders must learn to account and Members of Parliament (MPs) must do their role.

Molao o dirwa kwano.


Tautona ga a tsene ka kgoro a bo a re e melao ke ya FATF, come on, come on, jaaka ke bona go dirwa mo letsatsing la gompieno.

Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, may I call upon the Minister for Presidential Affairs to reply to the debate?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke nna ke neng ke tsholeditse la bofelo.

MR SPEAKER: I made it quite clear that Saleshando was the last speaker.
FOR PRESIDENTIAL MINISTER AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): Mma ke go leboge Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

Rraetsho, ke a go ikokobeletsa ka fa o re tsamaisang ka teng.

Ke go fa tlotla e e go lebaneng le boeteledipele 18 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) jotlhe jo bo leng fano.
Ke supe gore melao e e leng fano, maikaelelo le maikemisetso a yone jaaka e simolotse ka Tona Mme Serame, ga se sepe fela, ke go boloka tšhaba ya Botswana.

Maikaelelo ga se sepe fela, ke gore maloba re ne re le mo grey-list.

Re dule mo grey-list ga re batle go boela kwa grey-list.

Ka tsela eo, Batswana ba ne ba sokola, ba tshelela mo seemong se e seng sone re le mo grey-list.

Melao yotlhe gompieno e ya go fetola matshelo a Batswana, go ba boloka ka gore ga re batle go boela gape kwa grey-list.
Ke sone se e leng gore there are recommendations.

Ba FATF jaaka re ne re bua, ba re gakolola gore dirang jaana le jaana.

Fa le ka dira jaana, they are good recommendations tse e leng gore fa le ka di diragatsa, lefatshe la lona le ka bolokesega.

System ke e …(Inaudible)… thata Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Rona ga re go utlwe ka kwano, o e tla o kgaogakgaoga Honourable Minister.

…Silence… MR MORWAENG: …Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

Maikaelelo ga se go bogisa ope jaaka ke boletse.


Maikaelelo ke go diragatsa recommendations tse re gakolotsweng gore fa le dira se le se, le kgona go boloka lefatshe la lona le itsholelo ya lona.

Lefatshe la lona le sale le le mo kagisong e e siameng, itsholelo e tsamaye sentle.

Ka bokhutshwane, ga re a tla mo Palamenteng e gompieno ka melao e re lekang go bogisa ope.
Melao e jaaka Mme Serame a tlhalositse, go nnile le recommendations gore e tle e nyalane le ya mafatshefatshe ka gore as a country, ga re tshele in isolation, re tshela le mafatshe a mangwe.

Ga e ka ke ya re re tshela re le fano re le Botswana, ra itebatsa mafatshe a mangwe le makgotla a mangwe gore go tsamaisiwa jang, go diragala jang.

Ke sone se re leng fano.

Melao yotlhe… MR REATILE: Procedure.

Mr Speaker, procedure e ke e kopang ke gore Honourable Morwaeng o a bua but voice ya gagwe e crack thata.
A o ne a ka se ke a kopiwe gore a switch off camera, gongwe voice e ka tswa e le clear?

Ga re kgone to follow him sentle.

MR MORWAENG: Nnyaa, a go switch lona off, bontsi jwa lona.

Ke nna yo ke buang, switch off ke bue.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… I hope...(Interruptions)… di kgoreletsa lentswe la gago.

leboga Motsamaisa MR MORWAENG: Ke a Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ka tlotlo e e kalokalo, e o e itseng gore ke a e go naya ka dinako tsotlhe.
Thulaganyo e re nang le yone, ke go boloka lefatshe le tšhaba ya rona.

Ka tsela eo, ke kopa gore Mapalamente a a fano …(Inaudible)… ya rona ba dumalane le melao e. Re se ka ra itewa tsebe ke dikgang tse dingwe tse di buiwang jaaka morwarre mokaulengwe wa me, Rre Saleshando jaaka a ne a bua.

O a ne a bua ka dikgang tsa gore ga a rerisiwe, ka molao a rerisiwe e le wa kganetso.

Ke dilo di sele, ga se tse re di tletseng mo Palamenteng gone jaana.

Rraetsho, sengwe le sengwe se na le nako ya sone.


Mo nakong e re leng mo go yone, re itebagantse le melao.

Fa Motlotlegi Saleshando a lelela gore ga a rerisiwe mme rona re itse a rerisiwa, go raya gore there is a problem.

O a rerisiwa ka dinako tsotlhe fa a tshwanetseng go rerisiwa teng.

Go rerisa mo Rre Saleshando, ke kopa a tlhaloganye gore we are… DR GOBOTSWANG: Procedure.

Mr Speaker, ke a leboga.

Re ntse re bua jaana lefatshe lotlhe le reeditse.


Fa o bua gore Honourable Dumelang Saleshando o ne a lela, Batswana ba ka tsaya gore go ntse jalo o ne a lela mo Palamenteng.

Ke ne ke re a boele dikgang tse di ntseng jalo morago, a tswelele ka kgang ya gagwe go sena dibelebejane Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR SPEAKER: …(Inaudible)... MR MORWAENG: Jaanong ka tsela e, ke a leboga rraetsho.
Batho betsho, commission e e tlhophilweng gompieno le e e leng gore Motlotlegi Rre Saleshando o ne a bua ka yone, e tlhophilwe sentle ka fa molao o buang ka teng.

Ga go a tlolwa le fa e le tsamaiso epe, le fa e le go le go nnye.

Jaanong ke sa itse gore… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation Honourable Morwaeng?

MR MORWAENG: Yes sir.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker, may I?

MR SPEAKER: What are you asking for?

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Elucidation.


MR SPEAKER: No Honourable Minister, o batla go go utlwa gore o mo araba o reng.

O batla go utlwa everything that you say which is a reply to their debate.

MR SPEAKER: You want to elucidate to the House?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker o a belaela gore go na le value e o ka e tsenyang (add).

19 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: On a point of elucidation Mr Speaker.

Honourable Morwaeng ke ntse ke utlwa o bua ka bokgabane ka fa dikgang tse di sokodisang Batswana le Puso ka teng.
Ke batla go fa sekai fela gore jaaka ba bo BDF jaana, fa ba tshwanetse go reka didirisiwa tsa bone, mme madi a ba a dirisang a lebega gotwe a tswa mo lefatsheng le le grey listed, golo moo go felela go ba sokodisa in acquiring the necessary equipment that they may need.

Kana kgang e ya go rerisiwa, Motlotlegi Leader of the Opposition (LOO) is very selective.

Go na le dikgang tse a batlang gore a tsenngwe mo go tsone.
Tse dingwe jaaka committee tsa bo DIS fa gotwe o a rerisiwa, o e gasetsa mabogo e bile a bo a pinelela ba kganetso gore ba se ka ba bo ba tsena mo dikomiting tseo.

He is very selective about the way a batlang…(Inaudible)… Ga re ka ke ra tsamaisa lefatshe ka maikutlo a gagwe.

Ke a leboga Honourable Minister.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR MORWAENG: Jaanong ka tsela e ke re setšhaba se se ka sa tsietsega, ga se nnete.
Commission ya Review of the Constitution e tlhamilwe ka fa molao o buang ka teng, e tlhamilwe sentle.

Ga go a tlolwa le fa e le tsetlana epe.

Gore mongwe a bo a ema mo Palamenteng a re bo Tautona ba ba fetileng ba rile, ba rile, nnyaa, ke go leka go timetsa setšhaba.

Commission e ga go a tlolwa molao ope.

Batho ba ba mo commission e, ke bomme le borre ba ba nang le maikarabelo, ba ba itseng tsamaiso ya lefatshe le.
Gore bangwe ba ne ba eleditse gore go tsene bo mang, nnyaa, re Batswana rotlhe, re ka se tsene ka dinako tsotlhe gongwe le gongwe, go na le dipalo.

Jaanong e bile commission e ga se yone e yang go fetola motheo.

Setšhaba ke sone se yang go rerisiwa gore se tseye ditshwetso gore se akanya jang ka Molaomotheo wa lefatshe la bone.
Jaanong fa bangwe ba ne ba re re tsenye ditsala tsa bone tse di yang go akanyetsa Batswana, ra re re batla ba ba yang go rerisa setšhaba gore se ntshe maikutlo a bone le dikakanyo tsa bone ka lefatshe la bone, ka Constitution ya bone, go salwa tsamaiso morago e Molaomotheo o e buang.

Ka tsela e, Batswana ba se ka ba timela, ba akanya gore re tlodile tsamaiso golo gongwe.
Jaanong kgang ya gore re bo re bua jaaka re bua jalo, nnyaa, e bile moo ke go re ntsha mo tseleng ka gore ga go nyalane le kgang e e mo tafoleng.

Re fa re re a re fetoleng melao ya rona fale le fale go nyalanya melao ya rona le ya mafatshefatshe gore go boloke lefatshe la rona.

Jaanong ga e amane le commission.

Ga e amane le gore fa Tautona a bua merero mengwe a ye go neela, fa o gana jaaka Rre Healy a bua, fa gompieno gotwe a re dire jaana, e bo e le gore motho o gogela kwa, the next thing go dirwe eng?
Re tlhole re eme fela re letetse mongwe gore a tle go buisana le lona?

Bagaetsho, re filwe boikarabelo.

Ga ke bue ke re re filwe maikarabelo ka lesotlo.

Ke bua boammaaruri ke re re filwe boikarabelo go tsamaisa lefatshe ka…(Inaudible)… Let us respect this.

Re filwe maikarabelo, re tshwanetse re a diragatse ka boammaaruri boemong jwa tšhaba ya rona.
Jaanong fa batho ba le ganne mokaulengwe ba re mo nakong eno le ka se kgone, ga se lona gape le tlileng…(Inaudible)…le ntsha megopolo, re bo re e leba re akantshana, go bo go tsewa ditshwetso.

Jaanong fa e le gore…(Inaudible)… re tlhaloganya gore democracy e tsamaya jang, re bo re omanyediwa go tsaya ditshwetso, nnyaa batho betsho.

A re tlotleng tshwetso ya Batswana.

Ke kopo ya me.

Se re omanyetseng gore re tlhophilwe go tsamaisa lefatshe.

Se re omanyeng.
Se re omanyeng.

Jaanong gape bogalaka le kutlobotlhoko e e kanakana mo e bileng o kare jaanong go tshosediwa batho gore fa re sa tlhophiwe, fa re sa reng go tlaa re.

Bagaetsho, terrorism le money laundering se re buang ka tsone ke tse rotlhe re itseng mathata a tsone gore fa di le teng, bothata jwa tsone ke eng.
In any case tota re ne se tla fa to define ka gore definition ya terrorism e teng mo Counter Terrorism Act, mme e bile fa o ka bala molao o wa ya le one ka botlalo, o tlaa go tlhalosetsa gore tota go tewa eng ka botlalo.

Jaanong mo gotweng e tlaa re fa batho ba sa itumela, e bo e nna terrorists.

E tlaa re fa ke ngongorega ke le kwa Bobonong, go bo go nna terrorists, nnyaa, batho betsho tlhe a re tlhoafaleng.

Mongwe o a tle a bue teng mo Palamenteng e gore ga go sena se o ka se buang, didimala.
Se bue fela ka gore nnyaa, ke tshwanelo ya gago ya go bua mo Palamenteng.

Bua fa go na le se o ka se buang, e bile e le gore se contribute to kgang e re mo go yone.

Ke a itse gore re na le megopolo e farologaneng but kgang e re e buang e e kareng re batla go sireletsa terrorism gore kana e nna ka gore hey, fa batho ba jewa ke ditlhopho gantsi kante ga re sa itumelele se, re lefatshe la kagiso, morero le go buisanwang, mme re bo re ya kwa setšhabeng.
Re kgonne go nna a stable democracy, a stable Republic because re ne re neelana.

Baeteledipele ba kganetso ba ne ba itse mateka, go tlotlwana.

Gompieno jaana, heela!

mo e leng gore nako le nako Tautona o tlaabo a tlhaselwa ka mafoko gotwe this is the worst President.

Nnyaa, bo Tautona botlhe ba Domkrag ba ba fetileng ba lefatshe le, they did well for 20 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) our country, ba re diretse molemo fa ba dirileng teng ka nako ya bone.

Yo o teng gompieno, he is doing very well for this country.

E bile ka fa go ntseng ka teng, diphetogo di dintsi.

Nte ke fetse ka gore bagaetsho, thulaganyo e jaaka ke bua, Rre Kapinga o ne a bua a re ke eng re isa … (Inaudible)…kwa di sa tle fa tlase, go dirisa mafoko a gagwe re bona gore DIS e tlaabo e itebagantse le kgang efe.
Nnyaa, tota mokaulengwe le kwa mafatsheng a mangwe go dirwa jalo.

Ga se rona fela.

O motho wa security Rre Kapinga by training.

Bala kwa America, mafatshe a re bapileng le one le mafatshefatshe o tlaa fitlhela e le gore this is not the only country.

Re ne re leka to align through recommendation ya FATF gore dikgang tsa terrorism in terms of go ikarabela, go nne le yo a ikarabelelelang a le esi.
E se gore re nyatsa maphata a mangwe, nnyaa, bogakolodi bo ne jwa re ka gore already molao wa DIS o tsenya terrorism mo teng, a re di pataganye gore go nne go le esi kwa go ikarabelelwang teng.

We aligned them through the recommendations.

Le fa o ka tshikinya tlhogo tsala ya me Motlotlegi Rre Kapinga.

Re dirile jaana, ke tlaa go bontsha gore nnyaa, ga se tlholo ntšha morwaarre, ka boikokobetso jo botona ke tlaa go fa dipampiri gore o tle o bone gore re raya jang.

That is why re dira jalo.


E bile go thusa kgang e o neng o e bua ya reporting, gore go nne go dirwa reporting kwa, go ne go sa re thuse.

Ke gone mo go neng go ka re thusa mo re go dirang mo gompienong.

Ke kopa gore bakaulengwe gore a re se ka ra tsaya molao o ka tsela e bangwe re lekang go o tsaya ka yone, e kare re batla gore… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke kopa tlhaloso mo go ya Fusion Centre.

MR MORWAENG: Rra?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke kopa tlhaloso mo go ya Fusion Centre.
MR MORWAENG: The current Fusion Centre e re nang le yone jaaka ke tlhalosa ke re operation ya yone ka fa e yang go bereka ka teng, ka fa e yang go dira ka teng fa re leba Bill e re tlang ka yone e, ke gore the current Fusion e re nang le yone gompieno fa o bala molao o wa rona, e ya go tswelela fela jaaka e ntse, but now it will not be under the Director General.
E tlaabo e le under the Director fela jaaka e le gore fa o leba… basically e tlaabo e le gore kwa DIS re na le agencies di le mmalwa, including ya Fusion e e tlaabong e le ka fa tlase ga yone, and then kgang ya rona ya reporting e tlaabo e nna bonolo.
In short, Fusion e ntse e ya to operate jaaka it operates except that now we will be having one Director General, and the position e e tlaabong re na le yone ya Fusion ya Director General e tlaabo e nna Director, but tiro ya yone e tlaabo e nna e tswelela fela go ntse jalo e dira tiro ya yone ka botlalo re sa kgoreletse ope.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke kopa tlhaloso.

MR MORWAENG: Nnyaa, tla ke wetse mokaulengwe.


Ka tsela e ke ne ke re a e se ka ya re kgang ya rona ya gore re ka tswa gongwe re na le dikakanyo tse re nang le tsone ka DIS ba le nang le tsone batho betsho, nnyaa, ga go nna jaaka le akanya.

Rre Kapinga, kgang e ga se gore jaanong DIS e tlaabo e le gore makgotla a mangwe a Puso a security a bo BDF a tlaabo a le ka fa tlase ga DIS.

Ga go a nna jalo.
Ga go a nna jalo.

That is why mo molaong o Rre Kapinga re re, mapodise ba tlaabo ba dira investigation koo, the DIS le the police will be gathering intelligence.

O le lepodise o le agente Rre Kapinga, o a itse gore intelligence le tse di yang kwa lekgotleng ke dilo tse pedi tse di farologanyeng.

So they will be remaining with gathering of intelligence e e ka thusang ba sepodise in terms of their investigation.
Mo go nonotsha tsamaiso ya rona e re leng mo go yone, ya go lwantsha dikgang tsa terrorism le money laundering.

Tota kgangkgolo ke yone eo morwaarre, ga gona sepe gape kwa ntleng ga seo.

Then mokaulengwe mongwe wa me o ne a bua … (Inaudible)… go tla go amogela molao, Rre Molale o ne a o amogela gore re leke gore re…(Inaudible)… Rre Buti Billy o ne a amogela molao, and of course le bo Rre Kapinga ba o amogetse.
Then ka tsela eo ke re tota bagaetsho, tse dingwe ke ne ke akanya gore gongwe jaaka Rre Kapinga a ne a bua a re, re ntse le dikgang tsa terrorism di le kae e le matshosetsi mo nakong e e fetileng.

Ke dumela gore morwaarre Kapinga, e le motho wa security ga a solofele (expect) gore ke bo ke ema fa ke tlhalosa gore re kile ra nna le sennanne mme ra se re, re kile ra nna le sennanne mme ra se re, ke bua ke le teng mo Palamenteng.
Ke go tlhomamisetse Rre Kapinga gore, o a itse o le motho wa security gore ga o letele gore o tlhaselwe pele gore e bo e le gone o ipaakanyang.

Issues tsa go aga maikarabelo a go ka sireletsa tšhaba ya rona, ga o letele gore o tlhaselwe pele e bo e le gone o reng o a ipaakanya.

In short, to assure you jaaka Rre Tshere a ne a bua, I can assure bagarona gore nnyaa, setšhaba sa Botswana tota se sireletsegile, re ready go ka sireletsa tšhaba ya rona at any time jaaka Rre Tshere a ne a bua.
Batswana ba se ka ba nna ka letshogo la 21 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) gore a mme ba sireletsegile.

Tota gape ke go kgalemela (warn) ba ba ka nang le dikakanyo tsa terrorism jaaka go ntse go buile gore nnyaa, kana fa o bolotsa ntwa, go raya gore o a bo o ipaakantse o ipapanne.
Kana mogoadira ene tota o a bo a di ikgoela, but gore a re ready, ke tlhomamisetse Rre Tshere gore nnyaa, o safe le Batswana are safe; ba ka sireletsega ka gore ba ba ka lekeletsang Rre Tshere, ke go tlhomamisetse gore ba ka di gamela mo mokgokoloseng.
Mongwe o ne a bua fale tsala ya me Rre Lucas gore kana re tswa go kgotla motshitshi ka gore re bo re isitse sesole kwa Mozambique, mme mongwe o ne a mo gakolola gore nnyaa, kana we are part of SADC, part of SADC ke go thusa le go dirisana le mafatshe a re bapileng le one re le maloko a the international community.

Re ne re sa rumolona e bile ga ke dumele gore a mokaulengwe Rre Lucas a re re dirile phoso o isa masole teng koo.
Tota ka a le kalo ke re tse dingwe jaaka ke ne ke di bua ke re, fa Rre Tshere a ne a bua tota o letse a mmakaditse, ka gore tota e ne e se ene.

Ga ke itse gore go ne go rileng mo go tsala ya me, ka gore dikgang tse o ne a di tlhakatlhakanya.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation, Honourable Minister.

MR MORWAENG: A second, sir.

MR SPEAKER: Nine seconds left.

MR BROOKS: Thank you.


E ne e le fela gore jaaka o araba Honourable Lucas jalo, o mmolelele gore ga se la ntlha Botswana a isa masole kwa mafatsheng jaaka go tshwana le Mozambique jaana.

Go kile go isiwa Somalia le Lesotho e ntse e le Palamente e dumalana gore Botswana ka fa tlase ga ditumalano tsa mafatshefatshe gore masole a ye koo.

Ga se la ntlha, so a se ka a batla go timetsa Batswana.

tlwaelesegile gore fa go fetola Honourable Morwaeng, o a itlhophela gore o batla go tlhalosetsa bafe.
Ga nke a letlelela rona ba opposition go tlhalosa, fa o kopa tlhaloso ka kgang e a leng mo go yone, o go raya a re nnyaa, tla ke fetse.

Fa go tla ba phathi ya bone, o a ema o batla go araba.

Jaanong re tlaa tlhaloganya jang gore position ya Government ya information e re e batlang fa, a ke tsamaiso gore Tona o ka tsaya tshwetso gore o tlhalosetsa fela ba phathi e le nngwefela jaaka Rre Morwaeng a tsamaisa mo nakong ya gompieno?
in think MR SPEAKER: Well, I this House everybody… if Members ask for explanations they ask for help, you render help to them, so that fa o tsaya kgato epe le tsamaya mmogo.

Ga o ka ke wa itirela sentle ka go tlhoka gore o tlhalosetsa bo mang ga o tlhalosetse bo mang.

You want to carry the whole House.

That is my understanding of the proceedings.

You really want to explain to everybody whether they agree with you or not at the end, at least you explain.
MR MORWAENG: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente Rraetsho.

Kana tota ke se ke lekang go se dira Mr Speaker.

I have the contributions tsa bagaetsho, including ba kganetso jaaka ke ntse ke fetola (respond) to Rre Kapinga.

I think that is what I am trying to do, but now go bo e re ke bua ke tsweletse ke fetola to queries tsa bone kana dipotso tsa bone jaanong ke bo ke eta gape ke kgorelediwa mo go fetoleng, I do not think it is fair.
All I am saying ke kopa gore a ga se gore ke taboge, ke fetse tse di setseng di le fa pele ga me, gona le gore jaanong ke bo ke kgorelediwa mme ke sa araba queries kana dipotso tsa bakaulengwe ba ba setseng ba di beile fa pele ga me.

Tota ke sone se ke neng ke se kopa.

Jaanong… MR MORWAENG: Ke nine minutes e seng nine seconds, sir.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Go raya gore ga o a utlwa gore gatwe o arabe eng; o ratha sekgwa fela.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of procedure, Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER: Point of procedure.

MR MORWAENG: Ke ne ke tlhalosa (clarify) Mr Speaker, gore ke nine minutes e seng nine seconds.

MR SPEAKER: It is nine minutes; yes.

(MR LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION SALESHANDO): Procedure.

Ke ne ke re gongwe re tlhalosetse tsamaiso Mr Speaker.

Go setse go MR MORWAENG: Nnyaa, tla ke bue.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke kopa tlhaloso fa e le gore nako e a letla.
MR MORWAENG: Jaanong ka tsela eo ke re, go na le potso e e neng ya buiwa ke Rre Tshere a botsa gore a rona re a go buisana (negotiate) le terrorists kana ga re ye go buisana le terrorists?

Ke re nnyaa, mokaulengwe wa me Rre Tshere, tota ke ka se arabele mafatshe a mangwe, jaaka o bua gore mafatshe a mangwe one a dira jang, gore rona re ya go dira eng; ke re, nna le wena 22 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Rre Tshere a re emeng ka dinao go bona gore lefatshe la rona le tswelela le bolokesegile le sireletsegile.

Mo e leng gore ga re ka ke ra iphitlhela re le mo seemong sa gore re bo re na le batho ba mofuta oo fa gare ga rona.

Se se tona ke gore the stability, peace and tranquillity e re ntseng le yone mo lefatsheng la rona e re solegetse molemo ba rotlhe, re le ba kganetso, re le Batswana, all of us.
Ka tsela eo kopo ya me mo go rona fela rotlhe bakaulengwe ba me ke gore, a re bolokeng lefatshe le gore re tswelele go rena kagiso le thitibalo.

Re ka tswa re farologana ka dikakanyo tsa sepolotiki, mme moo go sa reye gore jaanong re bo re ngatana ka ditena, re bo re neelana dintša gore re lomane ka dintša, re tshuba… no!

no!

ga se ditso tsa rona batho betsho.


Ke ne ke kopa fela mo go lona fa ke re, a re lebaganeng le Molao o re tlileng ka one, o re kopang go dira dipaakanyo tse ke tsayang gore checks and balances will be there.

Checks and balances are there, go bona gore re ka kgona gore re ise lefatshe pele jang.

Mongwe o ne a bua gore, kana mo gompienong re na le makgotla a a independent.
Re na le makgotla a a tsayang ditshwetso tse one e leng makgotla ba bonang gore di ka boloka tšhaba ya rona ka fa ba ka dirang ka teng.

Ke a itse jaaka nne mokaulengwe Rre Mathoothe a bua gore, kana go kile ga diragala jaana, quoting incidents dingwe mo ga rona.

Ke re, mme ka dinako tsotlhe re a lemoga, re a itse gore makgotla a rona… and re tshwanetse re nne proud ka tsamaiso ya rona, a teng and a independent ka dinako tsotlhe, gore a reetse se Botswana a tlang ka sone.
Ka gore the rule of law mo lefatsheng la rona e kwa godimo thata.

Sa bofelo makgotla a rona a independent, bo Bank of Botswana (BOB) ba rona ba independent.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Puso ya gago ya independence e a gakgamatsa.

MR MORWAENG: Ee, ke a itse gore ba bangwe fa dilo di sa ba tsamaya sentle nako eo ba re ga a independent, fa di ba tsamaile sentle a independent.

Se se tona ke gore, we need to respect makgotla a rona gore re boloke lefatshe la bone.
Jaanong ka a le kalo ke re, ke tlhomamisetse Batswana gore Molao o re tlang ka one o ga se o o tlileng go kgoreletsa tsamaiso, ke o o tlileng go tokafatsa tsamaiso, le go boloka tšhaba ya rona.

Ke tsaya gore botlhe ba ba neng ba na le tse ba neng ba di ntshitse fa pele ba di beile gore ke di arabe, ke tsaya gore ke kgonne go di araba.

Ga go na epe e ke sa kgonang go e araba.


Le ya ga Motlotlegi Nkawana …(Inaudible)… ke tsaya gore le tsa ga Rre Kapinga tsotlhe ke di arabile, tsa ga Motlotlegi Mma Monnakgotla ke di arabile.

Tota tsotlhe ke tsaya… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Go na le e o sa e arabang.

MR MORWAENG: So ka tsela e ke ne ke re recommendation e ke kopang gore re e lebe thata ke ya ga Rre Kapinga, re lebe recommendation 2; recommendation 2.2 le recommendation 2.3.
Ka tsela eo gone mo go tlaa re bontsha, jaaka ke ne ke bua ke re ke tlaa kopa Minister wa Finance gore all these recommendations gongwe fa a ka re di direla ba rotlhe gore re kgone go di ipalela re tle re lemoge fa a ka kgona gore re nne le tsone, re bone gore recommendations tse di dirilweng tse ga se rona re neng re tla ka tsone, e bile e se gore re ganana le tsone, ka gore ke tse re tsayang gore di tlaa re boloka, di tlaa re isa golo gongwe.

MR SALESHANDO: Clarification Mr Speaker.


Mo puong ya me ke ne ke kopile gore o tlhalose gore Fusion Centre fa e simololwa la ntlha where was it reporting?

Where did it move to go fitlhelela kwa le reng e ye teng gompieno and what were the reasons?

Mabaka e ne e le eng gore e bo e ntse e fetolwa ka dikgato tse di e latetseng ka yone.

Fa e le gore ga o na karabo Tona, le fa o ka e tlisa morago ke ka e amogela.
Ke batla go tlhaloganya gore go ne go dirwa ke eng for it to move like the way it has been moving?

MR MORWAENG: Ke a leboga mokaulengwe.

Fusion Centre jaaka o tlhalosa mokaulengwe e teng mo bogompienong e a dira, jaaka o itse gore e simologile leng.

Wena as an experienced Member of Parliament ke tsaya gore o itse ditso tsa yone, gore e tlile leng, jang, into these things.
Fela se se teng ke gore, ka tota o batla gore ke tle ke arabe dikgang tsa gore ya tla jang ga reng- ga reng, ke kopa ka boikokobetso jaaka re bula jaana o tle o botse potso sentle, ke go arabe ka botlalo sentle.

E seng ke e shankodisa mokaulengwe wa me, gore re tle re kgone go bolelela setšhaba.

Fa ...(Inaudible)… ke bo ke re yone mme as … (Inaudible)… ka gore ditso tsa yone Fusion e tlile maikaelelo e le gone go leka go tokafatsa dithulaganyo tse re leng mo go tsone tsa anti-terrorism.
Jaanong mo seemong se re leng mo go sone, re mo go yone, re leka go e tokafatsa, basically re leka to better the whole …(Inaudible)… ka gore fa e tla jaana ka e ne e seyo kwa tshimologong e ne e dirwa, of course e ntse e le 23 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022COUNTER TERRORISM (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

40 OF 2021)Second Reading (Resumed Debate) ka dikgakololo tsa ba mafatshefatshe gore re kgone go dira ka fa re e dirileng ka teng.
Le mo bogompienong re dira jaaka re dira, re di isa kwa go leka go rarabolola dikgwetlho tse di fa pele ga rona.

Mme ka a le kalo Mr Speaker, ke bo ke re … MR SALESHANDO: Clarification Mr Speaker.

Kana ke boditse potso e, Tona ga a batle go araba a re ke ye go kwala potso, mme o a itse gore re mo emergency meeting, ga go na dipotso tse di letlelelwang go fitlhelela re sena go fetisa melao e yotlhe.

Information e ke e kopang ke a e tlhoka gore fa re ya go tsena kwa Committee Stage ke bo ke na nayo.
Gore a ntheye a re, “ke Mopalamente yo o sa bolong go tla ke ye go ipatlela,” a bo a dikologa jaaka a ntse a bua, ga go molato gore a re gompieno ga ke itse, tlaa ke ye go botsa ba ba itseng, e seng go tshameka ka mafoko.

The…(Inaudible)… e le gore o gana go araba.


MR MORWAENG: Mr Speaker, selo sa ntlha ke ne ke re, kgang ya gore Fusion…(Inaudible)…Motlotlegi Rre Saleshando…(Inaudible)…relevant kana di irrelevant, jaaka o boditse seo, ke bo ke re Fusion e re nang le yone e tlile…Ke kopa gore ke se ka ka tshwarwa ke nako, ke re Mr Speaker, I now move that the Counter Terrorism (Amendment) Bill, of 2021 (No.

40 of 2021) be read the second time Mr Speaker.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mo ke botšhekwane Mr Speaker jo bo feletseng, jwa class one kwa Office of the President.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR SPEAKER: Honourable Saleshando, we still have time, and I indicated to you we have very few lawyers though in Parliament who can try to help you with the meaning of ‘fusion’ as you read the Bill, and in the Act as quickly as you can.
I am sure Honourable Morwaeng will be amenable to availing whatever assistance he can to the Attorney General’s Chambers.

MR SALESHANDO: I will choose other routes not Honourable Morwaeng.

MR SPEAKER: Is…(Inaudible)… MR MORWAENG: Saleshando…(Inaudible)…tota mme ga a nkgakgamatse.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee - Later Date.

BILL CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

41 OF 2021) Second Reading MR SPEAKER: Order!

Order!
Order!

Honourable Members, the question is that the Criminal Procedure and Evidence (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.

41 of 2021) be read a second time.

May I call upon the Minister of Defence, Justice and Security to present the second reading.

MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Speaker.

Good morning Mr Speaker and Members of Parliament.


Mr Speaker, the object of the Bill is to amend the current Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act, to fully comply with Recommendation 30 of the Financial Task Force standards which require expeditious action.

The Bill therefore provides that the identification, tracing and the process of freezing and seizing proceeds and instruments of crime be expeditious.

Mr Speaker, Clause 1 is the title of the Bill.


Clause 2 amends Section 2 by inserting a new Subsection 2, providing that an investigating authority, shall expeditiously identify, trace and initiate the freezing and seizing of a proceed or instrument of crime.
Mr Speaker, Clause 3 amends Section 3 by inserting the following new definitions; (a) Proceed has the same meaning assigned to it under the Proceeds and Instruments of Crime Act; and (b) Instrument has the same meaning assigned to it under the Proceeds and Instruments of Crime Act.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Criminal Procedure and Evidence (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.

41 of 2021) be read the second time.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Order!

Order!


The question is that the Criminal Procedure and Evidence (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.

41 of 2021) be read a second time.

As you had indicated Honourable Minister, it is a very short Bill, but is open for debate, Honourable Members.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Some years back Honourable Members, when I used to belong to another forum, what we have done in silence is to speak loudly that you are in agreement.
24 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

41 OF 2021) Second Reading MR MAJAGA (NATA-GWETA): Mr Speaker, ke go dumedise, ke dumedise Batlotlegi Mapalamente.

Ke supe fa Bill ya ga Tona Mmusi ke e ema nokeng, le yone e le khutshwane, kana it is an amendment.

Mr Speaker, I just want to say we do agree with this short amendment e e tlang ka Minister, go se ka ga nna jaaka e kete jaanong ga re mo kgwe kgaba, o tlaa tloga a sa feel a le happy.
Thank you sir.

Go botlhokwa gore re bo re dira amendment in such Bills jaaka ya Criminal Procedure and Evidence, ka gore mo makgotlatshekelong fa o bona re na le ditsheko tse di kanakana tse fa gongwe o fitlhelang di sa tsamaye, di tsaya bo 10 years, they are costing Government and those are taxpayer’s money, ke madi a rona.

Fa gongwe e a bo e le gone fela gore dingwe ga di a dirwa sentle, gore dikgetsi kana bosupi kana dipe fela tse di amanang le this Bill, di ka bo di dirilwe ka nako.
Jaanong ke ne ke re ke akgole Tona gore a bo a bona go tshwanela gore mme ka molao ke sengwe se e leng gore se tshwanetse gore se nne se tokafadiwa, a bo a e tlisitse gape e ntse e le part of melao e e tlisitsweng fa e ama thatathata ka borukutlhi jo e leng gore jaanong bo tseneletse ke jwa mafatshefatshe, e nne Mma Serame e le ene e leng gore o a lead ka these Bills.

Ke bona gore it is part of the package.


Jaanong ka go rialo, ntetlang ke se ka ka nna moleele, ke support the Bill gore gongwe Batswana ba tlaa bona tshiamelo, dikgetsi tsa bone tsa tsamaya ka nako, go na le tokafatso ya gore this evidence is other associated requirement by investigating officers, ba di dire go sena makgwere ape.

By so saying Mr Speaker, I stand to support this Bill.

Thank you.

(KGALAGADI SOUTH): Mr MR BROOKS Speaker, good morning and good morning colleagues.
Mr Speaker, I think Honourable Majaga said it all.

E ne e le fela gore go se ka ga nna jaaka e kere silence means consent or in agreement, but we are just here to say we are so happy gore le ene a bo a lemogile gore dingwe dikgang di a diega.
E tlaare fa re ntse re baakanya molao o e leng gore re tsaya gore o ka thusa Batswana gore ba fefodiwe go reediwa le go thusiwa mo ditlhotlhomisong, gongwe e nne nngwe ya dilo tse e leng gore ba tlaa kgona gore Batswana ba se ka ba fela pelo mo dikgannyeng tse di nnang di diegile, ba dumela gore dikgotlatshekelo jaanong stockpile dikgang tsa bone, jalojalo Mr Speaker.
Looking at maybe Section 2 e e neng e supa gore the investigating authority shall expeditiously identify, trace and initiate the freezing and seizing of the proceeds and instruments of crime, that alone Mr Speaker, it is something se e leng gore re ka bona gore indeed we are going to change some of the things tse di ntseng di kgoreletsa di gogela kwa goreng dikgang di diege.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Tshere is asking for clarification Honourable Brooks.
MR TSHERE: Clarification.

Thank you very much Honourable Speaker.

No, ke raya yone ntlha e a neng a e bala ya Clause 2, e e reng, “an investigating authority shall expeditiously identify, trace and initiate the freezing and seizing of proceeds or instruments of crime.” Kana ya re expeditiously, what do you thing Honourable Brooks, gore fa gotwe you act expeditiously, go tewa eng?

A go tewa gore in two days, three days, a year or how long?
Do you think the Act is very clear there gore o tshwanetse o tseye nako e e kae or you should upon realising gore these are profits of crime, within 24 hours you should freeze them?

What is the Act trying to achieve gone fa, e sa state clearly nako e e leng gore e tshwanetse e tsewe?

What do you think about that honourable?

MR BROOKS: Thank you Honourable Tshere for that observation.

Mr Speaker, kana you will recall that dikgang tse dingwe di ntse di le go goleele go le kae.
So, gone moo go fa investigating officer….

kana investigating officer should always be given time gore a dire ditlhotlhomiso tsa gagwe mo go tseneletseng, a se ka jaanong a re raya a re o mo pitlaganong ya 24 hours, re bo re tsaya gore jaanong o tshwanetse gore a shankodise tiro e a e dirang.
I think as it is now, it is open, but at the same time e mo rotloetsa gore he should expedite what he is doing in the benefit of doubt gore go tle go kgone gore go tsamaise the process ya go tsamaisa dikgang Mr Speaker.

Thank you.

MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.
Tota golo mo ke paakanyo fela e khutshwanyane e maikaelelo a yone e leng gore go kgone go nna bofefo mo go lekeng go bona gore go sirelediwa tse di ka tswang gongwe motho a ka sia ka tsone, kgotsa di ka thusa gore motho a kgone gore a tswelela ka melato e bong to freeze le gone to seize proceeds of crime.
Tota what I am trying to say Mr Speaker, ke gone gore e re ntswa ke dumalana le gore go dirwe jalo, ke ne ke re at the same time, a re lekeng gore re ikele tlhoko go bona 25 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
41 OF 2021) Second Reading gore jaaka re re batla gore re dire dilo ka bofefo, e bile re batla gore le tiro e e dirwe expeditious, a re sekeng ra tloga kgantele ra iphitlhela e le gore jaanong one molao o, e bile yone tshetlana yone e, ke yone jaanong e yang go dirisiwa sepolotiki.
E ya go dirisiwa ke ba e leng gore ba batla go sokela ba bangwe dirope gore e re go na le sengwenyana kgotsa moshwadilenyana, e bo e le gore jaanong go a tabogiwa to freeze accounts tsa bo semangmang ka gore ke batho ba ba ntseng ba batliwa gore motho yo ke ka mmona jang gore ke tle ke mmontshe gore ke bidiwa mang.

Gongwe e bile fa go lebilwe nako ya ditlhopho, re fitlhela golo mo go diragala gantsi.
E le gore fa go bonwa gore motho yo Honourable Tshere o kare o dubile golo kwa Mahalapye o tlaa fenya, e bo e le gore go tabogelwa ka bofefo go bona gore o ka swelelwa jang by freezing sengwe le sengwe sa gagwe, go bo gotwe nnyaa motho yo o sentse, mme tota go sa nna jalo.

Ka mafoko a a kalo Mr Speaker, ke ne ke re fa molao o ntse jaana mme o tla o dirisiwa sentle, ga go na mathata.
Re nna le mathata fela fa e le gore molao o direlwa gore fa gongwe go lebilwe bo semangmang ka gore re a bona gore mo malatsing a gompieno o kare Goromente wa rona o tlaa busa ka go swelela.

Jaanong ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, ga go batle gore kgantele re ipolelele gore dilo kgotsa molao o dirwa o direlwa bo semangmang, batho ba ipaakanyetsa gore tla re tle re bakise bo semangmang.

Ka mafoko a a kalo Mr Speaker, ke ne ke re ke eme fela go le kalo.
MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, Defence, Justice and Security, reply to the debate please.

MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Speaker.

Ke utlwile support e e neng e tswa mo bakaulengweng.

Tota ke ka konetelela mafoko ame fela ka go raya Honourable Mmolotsi ke re, tota ga se maikaelelo ame jaaka ke tlisa melao e gore ke tle go tshedisa bangwe bokete kana ke ba gobelele.

Re Puso e e nang le boikarabelo, re batla gore dilo di tsamae ka bofefo jaaka Batswana ba solofetse.
Mr Speaker, ke a leboga.

I beg to move that the Criminal Procedure and Evidence (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.

41 of 2021) be read a second time.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee - Later Date.

EXTRADITION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

42 OF 2021) Second Reading MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker, the object of the Bill is to amend the Extradition Act to make provision for the expeditious processing of requests for the surrender of fugitive criminals.

The amendment will ensure full compliance with Recommendation 39 of the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) standards by providing the timeframe within which mutual legal assistance should be rendered.

The Bill has two clauses summarised as follows: (i) Clause 1 is the title name of the amendment Bill.
(ii) Clause 2 amends Section 9 by providing that the timeframe within which the request for surrender of a fugitive criminal shall be done within seven days of receipt of the Request.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Extradition (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (Bill No.

42 of 2021) be read a second time.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

MR KAPINGA (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr Speaker.


Just a short intervention, Mr Speaker, gore re bo re bua gore an extradition request transmission should be done within seven days, le yone e tswa mo go yone ele Mr Speaker, it is not enough.
I think the Minister should be candid with it to assure us that we will put in place, or he has already put in place the mechanism or the resources that will ensure gore yone seven days e go buiwang ka yone e, ene expeditious yo re tswang mo go ene yo, ga se puo ya molomo fela kana ga se go dira fela gore nnyaa e tlaa re FATF e tla re bo re e bontsha gore nnyaa molao ke o mme on the ground go sena tsone the resources that are there to ensure that these standards are met.
Golo mo Mr Speaker, gore bo seven days ba kgone go adhere to them, go batla gore go bo go na le specialised units like Fugitive Offender Tracing Units, at Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) we have specialised prosecutors that deal with extradition requests.

Le kwa mapodiseng go na le specialised units that deal with fugitive offenders tracing and things like that.
Can the Minister assure this House and the nation that he has put in place those resources; those specialised units which will ensure compliance with the standards that he is putting into the law this morning.

Thank you Mr Speaker.

26 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022EXTRADITION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

42 OF 2021) Second Reading MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.
Ke tsaya gore e re molao o re ka se ke re re re a o gana, kgang e tona kana e e botlhokwa ke gone gore fa gotwe motho ke serukutlhi, mme gongwe o batliwa ke ba mafatshe a mangwe, go na le tsamaiso e e salwang morago e e leng gore re tshwanelwa ke gore re bo re e diragatsa.

Jaanong kgang e tonatona jaaka Honourable Kapinga a ne a bua, ke go bona gore a mme systems tsotlhe di teng.

E seng moo fela, kana re tshwanelwa gape ke gore re lebelele gore mme tirisanyo ya rona le mafatshe a mangwe e ntse jang.
Ke go fe sekai Mr Speaker, kwa South Africa fa gotwe go na le a fugitive a kopiwa gore a tle mo lefatsheng la Botswana, ga se golo mo e leng gore o tla fela motlhofo jaaka batho ba ka akanya.

Go dirwa application kwa court, go lebelelwa gore molato o a o lebisiwang, a fa a tsena kwano ga o ye go nna molato wa polao ya motho.
Fa e le gore molato is likely gore a bo a tla a bolawa, South Africa e na le tsetlana e e e tsenyang gore nnyaa kana fa e le gore le batla gore le bo le ya go bolaya motho yo, o kare ga re letlelele yone kgang eo.

Ba bo ba boe gape ba ithute le mo go reng mo Botswana, go na le batho ba ba sa bolong go batliwa go tla go arabela melato ya bone, ba sale ba ya kwa South Africa.

Ga ke batle go ba bua ka maina, ke tsaya gore Tona o a ba itse.
Bangwe ba ne ba bereka mo Botswana Housing Corporation (BHC) ba na le maemo a a rileng.

Ke go fa sekai fela, le ba bangwe ba o ba itseng mme go tsere lebaka gore ba tle.

Ke tsaya gore re ka ithuta ka dikgang tsone tse go bona gore a mme the very system is in place.

Gape re se ka ya re fa re re seven days jaana, e bo e le gore jaanong re ya go gobelela batho, gotwe motho yo kana gatwe o a batliwa, mo tseye a a palame koloi ka bonako a fete a tswe a tsamae.
Go na le tsamaiso e e leng gore tota motho fa a batliwa e le serukutlhi, mo mafatsheng a mangwe e tshwanelwa ke go salwa morago.

Fa e le gore jaanong gongwe re tlaa ya go tsuolola ditshwanelo tsa motho fela ka gore o batliwa kwa lefatsheng le lengwe, golo mo go tlaabo go sa siama.

Ke gore dikgang tse dingwe Mr Speaker, e tlaa nna o kare gongwe re a di boelela fa re ntse re e fa dikai.
Fa gongwe lefatshe leo le iphetlhela motho fela le re re a mmatla, he is a fugitive mme e le gore boammaaruri jwa kgang e se a fugitive.

Ke gore fa re tsaya sekai ka kgang ya ga Butterfly, fa e ne e le gore o mo lefatsheng la Botswana a batliwa ke lefatshe le lengwe, go bo go fitlhelwa e le gore o pateleditswe molato, go bo gotwe re a mmatla a a tsamae seven days, fa a tsena kwa go bo go raya gore motho wa Modimo o gobelelwa ka fa a gobelelwang ka teng.
Dikai di dintsi, ke ka a fa se sengwe gape ka kgang ya lefatshe la Rwanda.

Go na le rre mongwe yo gotweng o ne a batliwa mme ba felela tricking him gore tla kwano e bile re go itshwaretse, ya felela e nna teng.

Kgang e e botlhokwa ke gore the process for a person to be extradited e tshwanelwa ke gore re bo re bone gore stage sengwe le sengwe go na le boitseanape, babereki ba ba lebaganeng, go na le offices le ba e leng gore within seven days yo, tiro e e ka kgona gore e bo e diragala.
E seng gore re bo re latlhela motho ka fa morago ga pickup fela gore feta, a mokgwa o teng kana ga o yo, rona ra re tsamaya.

Fela yone Mr Speaker, ga e na mathata ape, I support the Bill.

MR TSHERE (MAHALAPYE WEST): Thank you Honourable Speaker, le nna ke tlaa nna mokhutshwane thata mo go yone ka gore Honourable Kapinga o ne a setse a tsere mafoko a me.

Lantlha go supa gore molao golo foo ga o a wela sentle ka gore re ne re bua fela re re expeditiously, la bobedi ra re within seven days.
Ke tshwenngwa ke seven days Mr Speaker, jaaka Honourable Kapinga le Honourable Ramogapi ba bua gore kana this is a court process.

Unless re re re ya go dira thulaganyo e e faphegileng for that court process to be expedited, e nne ka bonako gore motho a kgone go tsamaya within seven days.

Ke tshwenngwa thata ke mafoko a a neng a buiwa ke Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO) gore o kare re tla fela mo Palamenteng re bo re re a re direng sengwe le sengwe se FATF e se batlang.
Kana golo fa go buiwa ka gore re ntshe Motswana yo o ka tswang a na le molato kwa mafatsheng a sele.

Jaanong re le Botswana ra re re batla go dira molao gore Motswana yoo re mo expedite gore a tswe mo lefatsheng la Botswana within seven days.

I do not think re batla go dira jalo ka Motswana.

I do not think go na le lefatshe le le ka akanyang gore mme fa motho wa lefatshe la rona gotwe o na le molato elsewhere, e re seven days a bo a setse a dule mo lefatsheng.
I think it is unjust and ga se selo se re tshwanetseng re se eleletse Batswana.

Fa e le gore go buiwa e le a foreigner, le ene it is still a very short time fa o re seven days.

Fa e le gore gatwe foreigner o tshwanetse a bo a dirwe, they still have to go through the court process within seven days.
Le gone ga go tewe foreigner nngwe le nngwe, re tshwanetse go tla go lebelela, re na le treaties that we signed le mafatshe a mangwe jaaka America gompieno jaana gore fa gotwe motho wa mo America ke fugitive, ga o ka ke wa mo 27 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022EXTRADITION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

42 OF 2021) Second Reading hand mo lefatsheng le lengwe.

It is a treaty that we have signed.

Re tlaabo re mmusetsa kwa America re sa mo kgome, re sa mo reng.
That is why o bone maloba moruti yole a tla mo radio a bua dilo a roga batho, ga gona ope yo o neng a ka mo kgoma.

E ne e le go mo tshegetsa fela o bo o mo isa kwa airport a tswa a tsamaya ka gore we signed jalo gore ga re ka ke ra tshwara maAmerica fa ba le mo lefatsheng.
Jaanong fa ke gakgamala thata Mr Speaker, fa e le gore re ka dira melao e gotweng fa Batswana ba ka batliwa gore ba molato kwa mafatsheng a mangwe, e re within seven days re bo re setse re ba ntshitse mo lefatsheng le ba ile go arabela molato wa bone.

Re ipaya ka fa tlase ga kgatelelo e e seng kana ka sepe le Batswana Mr Speaker.

I think molao o re ka bo re ne re o sekaseka re tla re bona, gongwe a tlogele lefoko fela gore it would be done expeditiously, not necessarily seven days, it is too short.
I submit Mr Speaker.

I thank you.

MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Tshere.

I think unless I misread the Bill, there is no intention of sidelining the courts.

It is that within seven days, you go to the courts to seek the execution of that request.

There is no other way, the Constitution will buy you.

Honourable Mmusi, can you reply to the debates.

MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Speaker.
Ke utlwile dikakgelo tsa bakaulengwe mme ya ga Honourable Kapinga, ke mmolelele gore gompieno re dira molao re a o baakanya.

Jaaka re buile fa re simolola re tlisa melao, re ne ra bolela gore re baakanya melao to be assessed in September, go bonwe gore a re e dirile sentle, e tlhamaletse.

Go tswa foo re tlaabo re simolola go e implement.

Therefore, we implement melao between September 2022 and by the time go tla go dirwa evaluation ka 2024.
At that time re tlaabo re ntse re tsweletse re nonotsha maphata a a lebaganyeng gore a tle a dire ditiro tse.

Re na le nako ya go ipaakanya.

Selo se re tshwanetseng go se dira pele ke gore molao o nne in place gore re tle re kgone go nonotsha maphata ao Mr Speaker.

Ke raya gore ke ne ke re ke mo tlhalosetse fela jalo gore ke a mo utlwa mme process ya rona jaaka re bua re e tshwere fela jaana.

MR KEKGONEGILE: Clarification.

Tanki Mr Speaker.


Tona, kana seven days mo lefatsheng la Botswana fa o bua ka gore o bo o ntshitse motho o sa kgaphela dikgotlatshekelo kwa ntle, o bua ka nako e khutshwane fela thata.

E bile gape go botlhokwa thata gore mo ditshwanelong tsa batho, le tsone re bo re di sekaseka gore re le lefatshe within seven days, e bo le rona re dirile ditshekatsheko mo lefatsheng la rona ka moagedi wa lefatshe la rona go go khutshwane fela thata.
Ke sone se bakaulengwe ba reng a mme ga o bone re lebile dikgwetlho tse re nang natso gore o tswa kgakala o ntse o rialo, gompieno ga re na lephata la ditshekatsheko le le lekang go tlhotlhomisa, le lebagane le kgokgontsho ya bomme.

Ga re na le le lebaganyeng le livestock mme o tswa kgakala o ntse o bua o re ka April 2020 re a dira, April 2021 re dira dilo tse.
Jaanong lone le fa o add gape o kgobokanya, nako e e yang go tlhoka lephata le lengwe gape le go dira dilo ka bonako, ga go ka ke ga kgonega ka gore re tswa kgakala re sa kgone dilo tse.

A mme ga o bone go le botoka gore o ka dirisa lefoko expeditiously, go na le go tsenya seven days ka gore ga go ka ke ga kgonagala, go kgobokana fa mathata a a ntseng a le teng gale?

MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Speaker.


Ga ke gane gore ke a utlwa bomorwaarre, mme e bile jaaka re bua, ke tlaa sekaseka tsamaiso ya seven days mme for now re santse re dumela.

E tlaa re fa re tla kwa Committee Stage fa e le gore gongwe seven days ga a re lekana, re tlaa buisana re tsenya ditlhogo.

Fa e le gore ga a re lekana, re ka mo ntsha kana ra baakanya.

Ke utlwa dikgang tsa lona.

Golo fa ke gone jaaka re le mo dipuisanyong, re tlile go tsaya dikgakololo.

Ke a le utlwa, ke tlaa e tsaya mofago.


E tlaare fa ke boa, ke tlaa tla ke le bolelela gore a re teng, le lona le ka nna la e tlisa e le Tshutiso.

Mr Speaker, ke utlwile dikgakololo tsa bakaulengwe.

MR SALESHANDO: Ke kopa tlhaloso.

Ke belaela gore o tsamaela go feleletsa.


Ka bokhutshwane, fa o ne o ka tlhalosa kgang e e neng e buiwa ke Mopalamente Tshere gore re na le ditumalano tse Botswana a di tseneletseng gore fa gongwe fa go batliwa ba mafatshe jaaka maAmerica ke International Criminal Court (ICC), ga re ne re dirisanya le ba ba ba batlang.

Go ne go le botoka o wele ka kgang e, gore a go ntse jalo?
Gone fa re rile re tlaa ba isa ka bonako, a re raya mongwe le mongwe kana re santse re raya gore go na le ba re tlaabong re re bone ga ba kgongwe?

Ke a leboga.

MR MMUSI: Tanki Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO).

Maikaelelo a molao ke gore re ise mongwe le mongwe.

Ke one maikaelelo a teng.

Jaaka ke bua, ke utlwile dikgakololo tse di tswang mo Mapalamenteng.

Re tlaa boela kwa morago le rona re di sekaseka.

Fa e le gore re tshwanetse re fetole golo gongwe re baakanye, re tlaa baakanya.
Ke dumela gore ke go arabile mongwame.

28 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022EXTRADITION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

42 OF 2021) Second Reading MR KEORAPETSE: Ke kopa tlhaloso.

Mr Speaker, ke tshwenngwa ke e, bogolo jang ya maSouth Africa le mafatshe a mangwe fa e le gore a teng, e e leng gore fa go na le a fugitive who is a facing a capital offence, molato o a ka o atlholelwang leso, they do not hand that fugitive unless Botswana a dira a guarantee ya gore motho yoo o tlaa se ke a kalediwe.
Capital offences re a e itse; treason, murder and offences against the state.

Potso ke gore, a Botswana e setse e ka itlama gore such fugitives ga ba nke ba atlholelwe leso?

Ke buisiwa se ke gore, fa motho a tshabetse kwa South Africa a lebisitswe molato o a ka o kaleletswang, go bo go sa nne le that guarantee, go raya gore motho yoo South Africa ga e nke e mo tlisa.

Ga e sa mo tlise, go raya gore they will get away with murder.

They will get away with whatever offence e e ba lebaganeng.
I just want to know whether this public policy position has changed or it is still the same?

Thank you.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Speaker.

Ke tlhalose sengwe.

Ke ne ke lebelela ka kwano gore kgang e ya seven days ke transmission ya kopo gore within seven days DPP a se ka a nna ka request, a e transmit within seven days.

Eo ke ne ke re ke e tlhalose.


Mo Bill fa o lebelela Clause 4, “a transmission of a warrant referred to in Sub-section 3 shall be done within seven days of receipt of the requisition for the surrender of the fugitive criminal.” Mma ke wele mo go ya Honourable Keorapetse.

Rraetsho, go santse go ntse jalo ka dikgang tsa South Africa.

Ke tsone dilo tse e leng gore within this time, re tlaabo re na le molao.
Re tlaabo re simolola to engage each other gore re buisanye gore melao e re ka bona jang gore re e diragatse ka kwano.

We will be engaging the Government of South Africa.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee - Later Date.

MUTUAL ASSISTANCE IN CRIMINAL MATTERS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
43 OF 2021) Second Reading Mutual Assistance and Criminal Matters Act to fully comply with the Recommendation 37 of the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) standards by providing the timeframe within which mutual legal assistance in Criminal Matters should be rendered.

Clause 1 is a title of the amendment Bill.


Clause 2 amends the Act by substituting the new Section 31 to provide that the Director of Public Prosecution must act within seven days of receipt of a request to get a restraining order against property.

Clause 3 amends the Act by substituting a new Section 32 requiring that the Director of Public Prosecutions must act within seven days of receipt of the request to get an order.
To produce document subject to investigations or that a financial institution must give information about the account to the Police.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters (Amendment) Bill, (No.

43 of 2021) be read a second time.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Thank you sir.

Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, the floor is open.

MR MOATLHODI: Call upon the Minister to respond to the debate.

MR SALESHANDO: Aa!

Le thantse botate.


MR SPEAKER: Le senya dikgang ka gone golo moo.

MR MOATLHODI: Saleshando, ke rraago kana.

MR SPEAKER: Le palelwa ke go ithuta fela gore Mapalamente ba bereka jang.

MR MOATLHODI: Dums, ke rraago kana.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister Mmusi, reply to the debate.

MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Speaker.

Ke leboga gore a bo Mapalamente ba sa nkgwe kgaba mme ba amogela se ke se buileng mo letsatsing le la gompieno.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.

43 of 2021) be read a second time.

MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, the object of the Bill is to amend the Question put and agreed to.

Committee - Later Date.

29 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022MUTUAL ASSISTANCE IN CRIMINAL MATTERS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
43 OF 2021) Second Reading BIOLOGICAL AND TOXIN WEAPONS (PROHIBITION) (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

44 OF 2021) Second Reading MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, the object of the Bill is to align the Biological and Toxin Weapons Act with the Counter- Terrorism Act.
The Bill has 2 Clauses summarised as follows: Clause 2 deletes the definition of proliferation financing; Clause 3 amends the Biological and Toxin Weapons Prohibition Act by substituting for Section 5 which prohibits the use of biological and toxin weapons.

A new Section 5 which aligns the provisions with Section 3 and 5 of the Counter-Terrorism Act, which prohibits acts of terrorism.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Biological and Toxin Weapons (Prohibition) (Amendment) Bill, 2021 (No.
44 of 2021) be read the second time.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Minister.

Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, the floor is open for debate.

MR MAJAGA (NATA-GWETA): Thank you Mr Speaker once again and good day to all of us.

Mr Speaker, I stand to support the amendment ya ga Tona ka gore dilo tsa dibetsa tsa mmolao wa kgailo, jaaka bangwe ba etle ba di bitse ka Setswana, we are living in one village.

Mongwe o ka rialo mo dinakong tsa gompieno.


Lefatshe lotlhe ka bophara le le nnyennyane fela thata fa o tsaya maranyane ka fa a diragalang ka teng.
Ka jalo, re tshwanetse re le lefatshe la Botswana re comply, re tsena mo dielong tsa mafatshefatshe gore kamoso fa go kanokiwa mathata a bo Eastern and Southern Africa Anti-Money Laundering Group (ESAAMLG), FATF le terrorism acts tse re di bonang di le teng mo dinakong tsa gompieno… Re bone mafatshe a mangwe a go yang go tswelela go ntse jalo fa o ka tsaya mafatshe mangwe a tshwana le bo Syria le Iraq le a mangwe just to mention a few.

Re bona gore go nna go diragala eng.


Jaanong dilo tse e nna a threat for security sa lefatshe la rona le le mo teng Mr Speaker.

Ka jalo, go botlhokwa gore le rona re le Palamente ya lefatshe la Botswana e e nang le tebelopele, re tseye kgato go dira tsotlhe tse re tlamegang go di dira for security reasons ya lefatshe la rona le ya lefatshe ka bophara.

Re a utlwa kwa bo Georgia le Russia, mme dilo tse ga di nke di fela, mme tse dingwe e le dintwa fela tsa mafatshe.
Fa e le tse tsa terrorism tsone di bokete Mr Speaker, gore di fele mme ka jalo, we must guard against such things ka gore mo dinakong tse di tlang, fa e le gore re tlaa nna re ba neela a leeway, ba tlaabo jaanong ba dirisa these biological and toxin weapons go nyeletsa lefatshe.

Ba bo ba tloga jaanong rotlhe re nyelela re le lefatshe.

Ke bona go le kaone kana go le maleba especially re dira melao e re lebaganeng le yone e e neng e eteletswe pele thata ke Mme Mma Serame.
Gape dilo tse fa re re ga di dire, ke tsone tse di dirang gore le itsholelo ya mafatshe le la rona le le mo teng, la bofelo e nne o kare jaanong gongwe Botswana e nna a tax haven, go tlhatswiwa ga madi le go bewa ga dibetsa.

Jaanong by so doing Mr Speaker, fa re fetisa molao o ka re kalwa ka seelo sa mafatshefatshe, le rona re tlaabo re diragaditse (complied) Mr Mmusi mme le wena it will be history gore nnyaa, mme ka ngwaga mongwe mo Palamenteng ya Botswana… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ngwaga o mosha.
MR MAJAGA: …Tona Mmusi o ne a fetisa…Talita, a ko o eme pele tlhe mma.

O apere sentle, re a go bona; ngwaga o mosha o fetile.

Ka nngwe tsela Mr Speaker, go tlaabo go le kaone go itse gore nnyaa, rona re ne ra dira tiro e re neng re tshwanetse go e dira go sireletsa lefatshe la Botswana le mafatshefatshe.
Mr Speaker, this is a wakeup call for us gore re se ka ra tloga gape, maloba go ne go buiwa ka grey listing e e neng e ama tsa madi le tse dingwe, kamoso e bo e re go tsena tse, e bo e le gore we are such countries tse e leng gore bone ga ba a baakanya melao to comply.

By so saying Honourable Mmusi, it is a welcome development, it is a welcome amendment to the Bills which were already in place, mme kana re tshwanetse go tsamaya ka dinako, ke jaaka o bona le Constitution e sekasekwa jaana.
Dilo di tsamaya ka dinako to guard against evils and good things which may come before the nation or mafatshefatshe.

Ke a leboga Mr Speaker, let me not be long, mme ke one otlhe a ke ka a buang.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure, Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Majaga.

Honourable Dr Tshabang.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure, Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Procedure.

MR BALOPI: Ke Balopi Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, ke a go dumedisa sir fa o ntetlelela go bua.
Mr Speaker, ke ne ke botsa gore gongwe ke batla guidance e le go tlhoka kitso ga me mo go ka tswang go le teng e bile 30 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022BIOLOGICAL AND TOXIN WEAPONS (PROHIBITION) (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

44 OF 2021)Second Reading Tona wa tsa Merero ya Mafatshe a Sele le Tirisano Mmogo le Mafatshefatshe, le ene a ka re sedimosetsa.
Ke ipotsa gore fa re bua mo Palamenteng ya rona ya Botswana, jaaka re sekaseka ditsetlana tsa melao tse di farologaneng, re bo re dirisa gongwe re tswelela ka gore ga se gompieno fela, ke selo se ke neng ke ntse ke se etse tlhoko Mr Speaker, re dirisa dikai tsa mafatshe a mangwe a gongwe e le dintwa kana dikgotlhang kwa mafatsheng ao re a bitsa ka maina jalojalo.

A ga go re tsenye mo go reng nako nngwe re tle re nne le mathata a gore gongwe re bonale re le lefatshe le le senang tirisano mmogo sentle?
Ke potso fela.

Fa e le gore gongwe ga e molemo Mr Speaker, I will be guided.

Thank you very much.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Balopi, I think it tends to reason that most countries do not want to be given as bad examples or examples of doing bad things so anything that is said in Parliament or anywhere else in this country, is bound to offend them.

Fa re dira jalo, we are taking a risk.

Our freedom of speech could put us in trouble.


It should only be done after a proper assessment when you think the other rights of this Republic demand that you do so.

Otherwise, it is something to be avoided.

It is not just a question ya gore ba ka reng, common sense; do not do it.

You are quite right Honourable Balopi.

Le utlwile.

Honourable Dr Tshabang, DR TSHABANG (NKANGE): Okay.

Thank you Mr Speaker.

Tla ke leboge sebaka se.


Ke bona gore Rre Thomas Mmusi o ntse a nkgotlhakgotlha a re ke akgele.

I have a few comments, mme ya ntlha ke gore ke a bona gore the Bill is to prevent proliferation ya biological and toxin weapons.

Jaanong my observation ke gore mo lefatsheng la rona facilities tse di tshwanang le national research laboratories le tse di mo universities, safety ya tsone is not good and not up to standard.
Mongwe le mongwe o kgona go tla go thuba a tsena a tsaya chemical kana biological substance that he wants, so tota ke kgang e e leng gore it is a concern.

Ke tsaya gore from now onwards le tsaya that as a big concern or as a risk.

Laboratories mo Botswana o tlaa fitlhela e le gore mongwe le mongwe o kgona go tsena fela fa gongwe le inventory fa go saenwang teng, o tswa kae o ya kae, ga go kwalwe.
Then the other thing ke gore security sa laboratories mo Botswana fela in general, ga go na alarms tse di rileng tse di kwa godimodimo le gore the dangerous chemicals tse di teng; dangerous chemicals and biological substances in those labs are exposed.

They are vulnerable.
Se sengwe ke gore do we have an inventory in this country ya gore the laboratories (labs) tsa gore they keep these types of substances, because it looks like mongwe le mongwe fa e le gore ke University of Botswana (UB) lab ya Chemistry kana ya Biology, ba kgona to order for themselves, and then those chemicals gantsi they do not pass through a vetting stage of the security or the authorities in the country, they come directly from overseas or from wherever they come from di ya straight to those labs.
So I think o tlhokana le checks and balances along those lines.

Gape do you have expired biological substances and chemicals in schools tse di ntsi tse e leng gore most of them can be used as triggers for substances tse e leng gore they can be used as biological weapons?

Fa gongwe we allow such chemicals to stay in the shelves for a very long time without being checked, collected and be disposed sentle.

So they expose risk in terms of access.


Tota re a itse gore labs tsa dikolo, di secondary school, are open, so most substances that are lying there some of them can be used e le starting materials tse di ka dirisiwang in reactions of synthesised biological weapons.

So the security and safety of these chemicals is important, le tse e leng gore they are standing in shelves should be removed very quickly.
I see the need gore re lwantshe these biological weapons, but sometimes o fitlhela e le gore the western world ba kgona go dirisa this as bottleneck gore le rona gongwe in the African countries re se ka ra kgona go nna le capacity ya research e e kalo.

So I wish to say gore le rona re nne careful gore when we apply restrictions on these substances, go na le tse e leng gore they are very- very innocent for research and for capacity building ka scientists and labs in the science field.
So we should be careful not to allow the western countries to stifle research in our country.

I also want to understand from you Minister gore do we have the capacity in the country to detect where these weapons are in case they land in Botswana?
Kana Botswana is vast, and some of these substances that are used for biological weapons are very cheap, access to such, is very easy, and some of the reactions tse e leng gore di a dirisiwa they are easy, and easy to make, and any place that can be… MINISTER OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (DR LETSHOLATHEBE): On a point of elucidation.

Thank you Mr Speaker.


Ke ne ke re gongwe ke botse 31 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022BIOLOGICAL AND TOXIN WEAPONS (PROHIBITION) (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.

44 OF 2021)Second Reading Honourable Dr Tshabang ka kgang e a buang ka ga yone e e leng gore it got me worried, e a buang gore tlhokomelo ya chemicals tse e leng gore di mo labs tsa dikolo tsa rona, e ka tswa e le dikolo tse dikgolwane, gore gongwe ga e a nna sentle.
Ke re gongwe a ntlhalosetse kana a tlhalosetse setšhaba gone foo gore is it the standard ya labs tsa rona gore ga di a agiwa sentle, ka tota ke itse gore labs fa di agiwa, go tshwanetse gore go nne le cardboard that store chemicals tse e leng gore di ka tswa di le diphatsa?

As a Chemist, I know he knows gore chemicals are classified ka bo Chemical Protective (CP) le tse dingwe.
Gore gongwe a ntlhalosetse gore a e ka tswa e le boitseme jo e leng gore our technicians in labs e ka tswa e le boitseme jwa bone, kana ga go a dirwa tsamaiso sentle gore re tlhokomele chemicals tsa rona?

Ke a go leboga Mr Speaker.

DR TSHABANG: Thank you Dr Letsholathebe.

I think the issue here is labs gantsi are designed properly, but upkeep ke yone o fitlhelang e le gore it is suspect, that is number one.
Two; I was saying mo shelves tsone tse, even if they are packed sentle, go na le a lot of expired chemicals tse e leng gore they are no longer in use, di lebetswe, they must be removed because le tsone they can be used as simple synthetic re-agents for biological weapons.

Sa boraro ke gore access to those labs is very easy by anyone yo o tswang kwa ntle, so let alone people with motives, so it is easier for them.
Ke ne ke re I am advocating gore le yone clean up of labs fela mo go tshwanang le mo all these chemicals tse di sa tlholeng di dirisiwa di ntshiwe di ye to be disposed sentle ka gore overstocking of chemicals le yone e kgona go nna a risk e e leng gore anyone who wants to use them can access them easily and use them.

So I think we should keep the amount that we want to use at the time.

I was talking about capacity to detect these weapons.
I have a serious concern Honourable Minister gore tota Botswana in terms of technology, e dirisa primitive technology, and it is not easy to detect some of these substances fa e le gore di teng mo Botswana because di motlhofo to design, synthesize, di motlhofo gore you can assemble in quick time, use them, dispose them before detection.

Also the starting materials; substances tse di dirisiwang to mould these reactions are very-very easy to find and very easy to use around the world.
So, I want to know gore do you have the capacity to detect those weapons fa di tsena; le gore do you have the expertise to check all the chemicals or substances that come in the country gore e can easily be used for a biological weapon or not?
Ke bua jaana ka gore go kile ga nna le rumours tsa gore some guy; a foreign guy, ga ke ka ke ka bua lefatshe because of what has just been said, he lost employment at the University of Botswana, but he still remained in the country, go bo gotwe o ne a ya to set up lab golo gongwe mo ntlong nngwe kwa Oodi or something like that, and then imported some substance e e leng gore normally e dirisiwa to soften matlalo for export.
That substance fa a e order into Botswana, o a bo a e order to come and turn it into a reaction e e dirisiwang to produce methane e e leng gore in some instances e dirisiwa to produce drugs.
So he stayed for a very long time a dira jalo go fitlhelela the South African police through International Criminal Police Organization (Interpol) ba bo ba alert Botswana, (I do not know how true is this) but ba alert Botswana gore we see a lot of substance e e dirisiwang in illicit drugs, about 99 per cent cubic e tswa kwa Botswana.
So I am saying this gore tota kana dilo di kgona go diragala mono re sena capacity to detect re bo re ya go fitlhela e le gore other countries ke bone ba ba kgonang go re thusa to detect such illicit laboratories.

So I wanted to know gore do we have the capacity to handle on this illicit and terrorist tendencies arising in the country?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)… DR TSHABANG: So Mr Speaker, ke ne ke batla go akgela fela go le kalo mo Bill ya ga Motlotlegi Rre Mmusi.

Thank you very much.


MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.

Tota ka bokhutshwanyane molao-kakanyetso o ke tsaya gore o ka re thusa fale le fale.

Mr Speaker, molao o mathata a rona a matona ke kwa implementation.

Gongwe go tlhokafala gore tota e re fa go sena go dirwa le molao o le kwa regulations, re bone gore mme regulations of chemicals e dirwa jang ka fa go ka nnang ka teng ka gore ke gone kwa e leng gore go na le mathata.
Jaanong kana go batlega gore re simolole go bona gore scientists tsa rona fa ba tshwere dilo tse…ke gore kana molao o tlaa bua fela jaaka o utlwa mo go Clause 5 o re, “a person who intentionally releases,” mme yo mongwe ene kamoso a bo a dira a bo a re, “no, kana I was doing 32 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022BIOLOGICAL AND TOXIN WEAPONS (PROHIBITION) (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
44 OF 2021)Second Reading MOTION ADJOURNMENT LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Mr Speaker, after a near productive day, I move that this House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 1:37 p.m. until Monday 31st January, 2022 at 2:00 p.m. it unintentionally, ke ne ke le on research,” mme tota maikaelelo a gagwe ene a ne a ntse a itse gore o dira eng ka fa morago.
Jaanong ke re, gongwe go batlega gore re nne le dilo tse di tshwanang moo go bona gore, barutabana ba rona ba science go tswa kwa secondary are licensed, go bona gore a ga ba iphitlhele ba le mo mathateng ka dikgang tse.

Re a itse gore science go na le dilo tse di siameng mo teng, mme go na le dilo tse e leng gore motho o tsaya selo se se siameng a bo a se fetola bo methane, jaaka Dr Tshabang a ne a bua.

Re kile ra bona dikgang tsa kwa bo Matsha gore go ne go diragetse jang, fela jalojalo.
Kana molao one Mr Speaker, re ka lemoga fela gore ga se golo mo e leng gore tota gompieno jaana go go sha.

Mathata a me nna a matona ka this biological weapons ke gore, mafatshe a fetogile.

Ga ba sa tlhole ba dira tsone tsa biological weapons, tsa mmolao wa kgailo.
Ba dira virus tse ba di tsenyang mo bathong, go bo go raya gore jaanong, for example jaaka COVID-19 jaana, malatsing a gatwe ntwa ya gompieno ga e sa tlhola e ya go lowa ka biological weapons tsa mmolao wa kgailo, ba ya go dira viruses tse di farologaneng gore di bo di re tsena, di bo di re bolaya.
Ke re, a dilo tse Puso e di ele tlhoko, e di lebele gore, a mme mafatshe ga re na go felela re bolawa ke batho ka go dirisa jaanong motlhala o mosha wa dilo tse di tshwanang bo viruses, ka gore mafatshe fa o ka ela tlhoko, e rile ka 1972 fa Molao wa Biological Weapon Convention o setse o ntse o simologile, mafatshe a mangwe a ne a gana go saena, mme a saenne kwa morago ka bogakolodi ja ga SG Balopi, ga ke ka ke ka a bua ka maina.

Mme a saenne ka dingwaga tsa bo 1984.


O ka bona gore mafatshe a mangwe a matona a, a re a bitsang re re ke the big five, a ne a ntse tota a sa batle go saenela molao o. Ke re, mme Honourable Minister, a re sekaseke go bona gore mo lefatsheng la rona tota dilo tse di somarelwa jang, le disposal ya tsone, how are these chemicals disposed, ka gore fa re sa lebelele gore batho ba a di saenela jang... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR RAMOGAPI: O kare nakonyana ya me e setse e fedile.
Ga re sa lebelele gore batho ba di saenela jang... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, Ramogapi, ga se gore o tsaya 20 minutes?

MR SPEAKER: Ga o ka ke wa re nnyaa.

MR RAMOGAPI: …(Inaudible)…Ee rra e tseye.

MR SPEAKER: Order!

The time is up.

I call upon Leader of the House to move a Motion of adjournment.

33 Hansard No 204Friday 28th January, 2022BIOLOGICAL AND TOXIN WEAPONS (PROHIBITION) (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2021 (NO.
44 OF 2021)Second Reading HANSARD RECORDERS Mr T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B.

B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae 34 Hansard No 204